Lost Reviews and News

MIF!! I hope

OMG. This episode was WOAH.

I haven't read Mac's write-up yet, so forgive me if I contradict or repeat something he says.

The first thing I thought when I saw Jin and Sun in the so called "flashforward" was, "Wow... JoePike is probably going to eat his (chocolate) hat when this episode is over"

Sorry meg, to rule #1: MIF.
(unless someone else beat me to it)

Alright... so to begin... Is Jin one of the Oceanic 6?

If yes: Then he faked his death or something along those lines and the world doesn't recognize him as alive; also therefore, Aaron is NOT one of the six.

IF no: Then somehow he got off the island, still works for Mr. Paik. Possibly his portion of that was a flashback? (And only the Sun portion was a flashforward?); In that case, Aaron would most likely be one of the Oceanic 6.

Wasn't the year of the dragon like in 2000?

Everyone totally called the Michael thing. Though it was very predictable, the writers decided to keep it that way.

I don't enjoy all the Michael drama. He's annoying... almost as annoying as Jack when he breathes.

...I guess he does beat Jack's breathing.

Juliet is a meanie. But I guess it was for the best. It was just terrible of her to mention the affair.

If Jin's "flashforward/flashback" happened the same time as Sun's... then he's mean.

He looked good... maybe it was his hair?

I have a feeling his part may have been a flashback. It just makes more sense that way... but then again, when has LOST. ever made "sense" the first time around?

The panda would have been cute.

The nurse was annoying...
Nurse #1: Is that --? (in Korean)
Nurse #2: Yes, the Oceanic six! (in Korean)

...or something like that... either way, it was annoying. She's having a baby with potential complications for crying out loud! Who cares if she's a celeberty!

Then again... probably if I was a nurse, and Jamie Lynn Spears came to my hospital to have her baby... I would probably do the same thing that the Korean nurse did to Sun.

So much for seeing Locke's reactoin when he heard Michael was Ben's MOTB.

We didn't see BEN or Sawyer. =(
I don't care much for Sawyer though... he just has a nice "bod". Ben's just hot all over (including face).

I kinda like the Captain. He seems "honest"; he's also kind of cute. (*wink*wink*)

So if the crash was a "surprize" to Ben, then how could he have staged the crash and 374/364 (something like that) dead people?! (Since Desmond thinks he crashed the plane).

Ben somehow got the flight manifest, he got a THUROUGH background on EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, he got two spy's: one to watch the tail section (Goodwin) and one to watch the middle (Ethan), AND on top of ALL OF THIS, he somehow staged a plane crash of 374 casualties. (Did I get the number wrong?).

BOTTOM LINE: Ben is a FLIPPING GENIUS!!!

People I want to be when I grow up:
1. Benjamin Linus - Thought Process; Diabolic Behavior; Genius Sense of...?
2. Jigsaw (SAW) - Genius Serial Killing (without actually ever killing someone)
3. HOUSE. - Personality; Sense of Humor; Sarcasm; Genius

Basically... I would like to be a genius. These happen to be the top three people on my "Genius" list. One of them happens to be the love of my life.

I'll continue more tomorrow.

That's all for now folks! Tune in next time for ilovebenjaminlinusxx only here, on El Blog de Mac.

Hey Mac:

My thought was that Sun's was a flash forward and Jin's was a flashback.

I think Jin is dead. :(
And so I don't know who the six are . . .

From Lisboa, Portugal, 04h19 am…

Awesome episode. GRAA, Mac.
I just know it is… I didn’t have the time to read it yet…
stopping work, it's review time!
Catching up my breathe… here we go!

Mr. Naysayer for President 2008

@mac: Hope this makes sense. Jin flashed-back to his story of delivering the Panda when he worked for Mr. Paik and had only been married to Sun for two months (this was all pre-island). Sun flashed-forward to her delivery sometime after being “rescued” as one of the Oceanic Six. And the 3/20/1980 date is Sun’s birthdate. Many double gravestones have the spouse’s birthdate engraved before their passing. So 11/27/1974 is Jin’s birthdate and 9/22/2004 is his supposed date of death.

Other than that, color me confused (as usual).

The question of the Oceanic Six was to be answered in this episode. Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun and (who?) Is number six Michael or Aaron?

Is Jin dead or back on the island? I’ll say the island, because his gravestone listed his date of death as Sept 22, 2004 (day of the crash). Can anyone translate the other engravings?

Thought the whole episode was a little slow. The result of high expectations, I guess. Des and Sayid, our men of action, seemed to wander about the boat like lost sheep. I thought surely Des would be a little more fired up after his talk with Penny.

And, no surprise, the return of Michael was less than thrilling. Except when Sayid grabbed his hand and gave him the stink-eye. Swab the decks with him, Sayid!

There was speculation that the Six get off the island as part of some deal with the devil. Other than Sun, I can’t guess what would cause the others to leave their friends behind. Does Widmore “rescue” them or does Ben let them go? Does Widmore end up in possession of the island, displacing Benry to his new life as uber-villain veterinarian?

Random thoughts:

Captain Gault is hot. But I promise not to go on about it.

What’s the deal with the lima beans? Do they contain all-natural flavanoids that deter time-travel? Or maybe they have a Prozac additive to promote emotional well-being :)

My office is in an historic building and the pipes make a great banging sound when the heat kicks on. I often imagine there’s a ghost in the furnace room with a ball-pein hammer and bad attitude. Seems like the Kahana has its own ghost. Walt?

Nice to see our own dear Eloise with a walk-on part (ANTR?)

And where does one procure 324 bodies to fake a plane crash? Ben’s been busy.

Did anyone catch the date on the tombstone? It was 2004 09 22. This is the date that Flight 815 crashed.

Does this mean that Jin was not one of the Oceanic 6? I think he is still on the island. Sun is talking to him like he is still alive....

Okay, for the real post now.

In the flash-forward scenes, we never saw Jin and Sun in the same scene. I think Jin's scene was a flash back to early in their marriage, say year of the dragon, maybe 2000. I think Sun's scenes were a flash forward of off island events. I hope Jin has an honorable death.

jin=flash forward. had to be. then again when have i actually been right about this show?
L~

The tombstone reads date of death as 9.22.04, the day of the crash. So we know he didnt die then, and it didnt appear he got of the island with sun, and we know Oceanic 6 are up to their necks in coverups and lies. So I believe jin is alive and on the island, and the O6 have to keep up the pretense that he jin and the others, are dead.

Jin's scenes had to have been a flashback. A disappointing contrivance, if so.

Mac, thanks for the quick turnaround. Never imagined you could include 'Neosporin' in a Lost recap.

I also think that Jin's was a backstory. There is no doubt that the producers were playing with our minds. Have mercy!

Ok I lied...
I read the first part of Mac's write-up... I have some stuff to say. Can't sleep now!!!

So uh... I missed being #1 by just a few seconds!!!... Rats.

Going along with my "flashback" theory (the writers just put that part there to confuse us), I think that the 09/22/2004 is the day that he died. They put his "body" in Korea because that's where Sun lives.

Everyone else seems to think he's dead as well... because Sun said that the doctors said that she was "calling for Jin".

I guess JoePike isn't going to need to eat his hat.

I wouldn't mind though... as long as it's chocolate.

SO the ones of the six that we KNOW.
1. Jack
2. Kate
3. Hurley
4. Sayid
5. Sun
6. Aaron? NO.

I agree with what Mac said in the review for the season primere of season 4 ("The Beginning of the End")... He said that he's starting to think that Hurley is going to be one of the more IMPORTANT characters in this.

Hurley has been EVERYWHERE. I believe he's been in everyone's flashforward except for Sayid's in "The Economist".

I must keep reading.

Ok, I have to now.

So "Ben is behind the fake"... But the Captain also said that, "This is ONE of the reasons why we're after Benjamin Linus". (Or something along those lines).

WHAT ARE THE OTHER REASONS?!?

Hey, I'd be after him too... just... not to kill him; or anything of that sort.

PEOPLE THAT WEREN'T ON 815 CAN'T COUNT AS THE O6!!! (Ben, Juliet, Desmond, ETC.)

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but unless they somehow steal someone's identity, change records/pictures, and convince family members of the real people... they wouldn't be able to pull it off.

324... that was the right number. Sorry!

I just noticed I repeated a lot of things that Mac said... Sorry Mac!

I still can't sleep! (Then again, I haven't tried... so... that doesn't really help)

Alright, alright... I'm done! (for now)

The book Regina was trying to read upside down.....

The Survivors of the Chancellor: is an 1875 novel written by Jules Verne about the final voyage of a British sailing vessel, the Chancellor, told from the perspective of one of its passengers in the form of a diary.
(lots of bad stuff happens)

Another title from Jules Verne.....

The Mysterious Island.

Yikes.....

If Jin is not one of the Oceanic Six, then (gulp), it leaves one spot open.

Ummmmm.... So who has an address for chocolate chapeau?

While I don't like the lack of certainty, I still don't think Aaron is one....

One of the nurses asked Sun if she should contact anyone - her parents or husband. Since we later found out Jin was dead, the nurse should have known that. Obviously the dr did. But I didn't take much notice of the nurses - maybe it was not the one that knew who Sun was.

@Clementine/6: The lima beans remind me of a short story (probably Asimov, but I don't remember) - the AI spaceship realizes it has to cause the temporary death of the astronauts in order to time travel. They must time travel, so the AI copes with the untenable situation by developing a sense of humor - the only foods it stores for the trip are beans & milk.

I strongly disagree with the assertion that Jin flashing back while Sun flashes forward is a "disappionting contrivance." Au contraire. IMO it is a brilliant mind-bending stunner.

LoL

It would be pretty funny if Steve turned out to be one of the Oceanic Six.

They had the gag of Scott and Steve always being mis-identified, and then Scott is killed by Ethan. Steve is referenced in several episodes, but does not appear.

Or maybe it is Frogurt?

This would be a clever way to deceive us all - use one of the background survivors!

Sorry if some of what I say has already been discussed in someone else's post. I'm reading the existing posts but I know how quickly everyone posts this time of night so I expect I'll miss a ton of conversation by the time I post this.

First, Jin's flash definitely appears to be a flashBACK because the year of the dragon was 2000/1 and is not to return again for 12 years (I think). I'm truly confused as to why the writers want to present a flashback and a flashforward like that to purposely confuse everyone. If you're not an avid pause-button/rewind-button/talk on the boards type of person you're going to miss this type of information. To be honest, I cannot even be sure this is truly what is being presented but it seems to be.

Second, Desmond and Sayid get a secret note telling them that they shouldn't trust the captain. But everything he told them seems to be the truth based on everything we know. So at what point should he not be trusted? In a future episode?

Regarding Jin's supposed death, unless the Oceanic Six are under some mistaken impression (one that is perpetuated even further by intermixing of a flashback and a flashforward in this episode) this one seems to be real because of Sun's reaction when seeing the grave.

Regarding the mixing of a flashback and a flashforward, I don't believe they've ever done this before on the show. Is this something we're going to need to keep our eyes out for from now on, wondering all of the time if what we're seeing is the past or the future? I don't think I like this change in pattern one bit.

Regarding Juliet's divulging of Sun's affair, I really am beginning to dislike her as a person to be quite honest. I mean, supposedly she's a good person, that's kind of been established. But what's also been established is her penchance for withholding information unless it needs to be divulged and her use of secrets as a means to justify her ends (or is it vice versa...). She really isn't a character I'm too happy with right now.

Speaking of people I never liked,while I'm sure they've got a good reason to bring Michael back I'm just darn unhappy about his return to the show. My feeling was "good riddance" when he left. Now it's like bringing a little bit of poison back to an otherwise enjoyable show. Sorry, that's just me.

Don't know why I'm feeling so negative about this episode's storyline and results. I'm hoping it will pass. In the meantime, hope everyone's conversation will lighten the mood much more than my post.

Overall, I loved the ep, but really wasn't too suprised at how things played out for Jin and Sun. I suppose it was because I've strongly believed that Aaron was one of the Oceani6, that I suspected the Jin sequence was a flashback from the time he bought the 1st Panda. When Dr. Bae stepped in for Dr. Park and the nurse gave Sun the injection, it crossed my mind the Dr. and Nurse were both Others (or the 'real' bad guys) preparing to steal (or substitute) Sun's baby. When that was followed by all the panda-monium surrounding Jin's aforementioned purchase - including the convenient lack of substitute pandas - I connected those dots and finally bought into the idea that it was Jin - and not Aaron - who rounded out the field of 6. I imagine that was the purpose for including that added layer of dramatic tension.

Seeing as I post this what #11 BadAstronaut had to say, I'm glad I'm not alone on this, but I really didn't see how the Jin backstory added to the overall story. If it was solely constructed to serve the purpose of midirection simply to provide another end of story twist, then I'm a little disappointed too. NOT disappointed with the episode, just about that particular storytelling technique.

I'm sure many enjoyed the way it played out as a WTF moment - even mac had Jin's sequence pegged as an off-island flash forward. Although I'm pretty sure that the Jin and Sun stories qualify as two distinct stories and therefore do not break the rule that the off-island stories happen sequentially. As for the value of Jin's story, hopefully I'll see what I missed when I watch again, or catch something from the some of the comments here.

I really thought this episode put end the Oceani6 debate once and for all. It HAS to be Jack, Kate, Hurley Sayid, Aaron, Sun. It was made clear that the last of the 6 would be revealed, which assumes we know who the rest are. I don't believe the LOST creators are trying to keep us guessing on this. If anything, I'm inclined to think they want us to clearly know by now which 6 people the entire world believes survived flight 815.

1) recap forgets to mention the episode (brief flash) of the TV show "Expose" on the TV in Kwons' room.

2) After this episode I really wanted to erase all of my tapes… reboot my PC from scratch and start watching again from S1E1. I am also contemplating a Karl visit to the “Clockwork Orange” room 23 on Hydra Island for a little brainwashing reboot - as good as Ji Yeon was - it was equally as frustrating.

3) My satellite feed contradicted the broadcast feed I first watched. The caption here was "the baby is crowning", as Sun squeezed out Ji Yeon. The Korean station in Hawaii captioned it as "the scarf is crowning"???

F#ckers. Mother f#ckers. They had me going really good and then pulled that rug out. Jin dead? Is Agent Baker dyed? (only 10 months till "24" starts again!).

Upon furthur inspection there was a clue the two flash-forwards weren't in sync. When Sun is in the hospital she tells one of the staff to tell her husband to come to the hospital. But we're led to believe Jin already knows Sun is in labor (or at least in distress). If Jin already knew of his wife's condition (which we presume he does by the conversation with the toy store owner), why would Sun need someone to inform him? There are two possibilities*:

1. Jin's off island sequence is a flashback
2. Jin and Sun have divorced and he's remarried

I'm partial to option 1. The thing that REALLY confused me was why Sun and Hurley go to the cemetary if Jin isn't buried there. I understand that there aren't a lot of options but if Jin were left on the island alive, it wouldn't make much sense to honor him in a place for the dead. Sun could "speak" to Jin pretty much anywhere. The seashore; downtown Seoul; the DMZ. Anywhere but a cemetary. Again, that's presuming he's alive on the island.

*Realistically there are tons of possibilities but my head staying unexploded is more important right now. Speaking of which, is Miles still holding that grenade in his mouth?

@19 LostedIT

"Regarding Jin's supposed death"

Oh those clever writers.....

Sun certainly is in grief, but Jin is not dead. She misses her husband, and is faced with the reality that she may never see him again. As she has no way of communicating with Jin, the tombstone is the next best thing.

Also, remember that all members of the Oceanic Six are lying about what really happened. Therefore, Sun must do her best to play the part that she lost her husband when flight 815 crashed. They know people are watching.

Very clever.....

I definitely think Jin's was a flash forward. At first, it seemed like a staged death in the present day, but it makes so much more sense that their 2 storylines took place several years apart. (year of the dragon=good catch!)
So Ben is the one who staged the wreckage? Most likely to keep people from looking for the plane out of fear that they might stumble upon the island in the process. Where did he get the bodies? Perhaps he had some frozen up, saved for a rainy day. Maybe they were left over DHARMA people or perhaps he owns a large concentration camp somewhere.
What doesn't make sense: Ben had access to 324 dead bodies and a used Oceanic jet, yet he didn't have access to any spinal surgeon off the island. DNMFS!

Side note: Sun's OB/GYN was hot! I bet she totally hooks up with him in season 6!

Mac: “Next week she'll confront Ben about his bug eyes.” - LOL

Jin's «« rewind
Sun's »» forward
Brilliant idea from the producers!

There's only one thing that makes me wonder...
First I thought that Jin was one of the 8 survivers Jack mentioned on Kates's trial. That would make sense in the cover up to explain how Sun got pregnant in the island. But, if that's so, why the 22.09.2004 on his grave?

Ben staging the crash makes sense regarding what he told to Locke about everyone wanting to come to the island. The plane crashed, everyone died, end of discussion... if it wasn't for old Widmore and his will to always get his way!

Ben's the real puppet master.
Widmore it's just greedy.

See ya!

Jin's scenes were definitely flashbacks (he even mentions he's only been married for 2 months)

As to whether Jin is dead, in the trial Jack mentions that there were 8 that survived the crash and then we have the Oceanic six, so we can maybe assume that the Oceanic six came back with 2 bodies (Jin and Claire maybe?)

Sun's reaction at the grave seems to be real and not something she would do if Jin were still on island (wouldn't she be doing a Penny Whidmore with her dad's fortune to find Jin?)

I think part of the reason the Oceanic 6 are such celebs is that not only were the believed to be dead, they actually found all of the bodies in the plane (324 was correct number I believe). It would be unusualy to find all the bodies of a plane crash and then for 6 survivors to show up.

I still think the other Oceanic six is gonna be Sawyer. With the whole island radiation and leaving causing problems, the only ppl who were not technically on island when the hatch blew were the 5 we've seen and then Jin/Sun/Sawyer (Jin/Sun/Sayid were on the boat at the time were they not, and Jack and gang were on a pier which is on water and not technically the island proper)

Anyway, my ideas :)

@20 (myself) In hindsight, I realize the whole panda taxi fiasco could actually be a common gimmic used by Korean merchants. What a great con opportunity. They sell something large and expensive to someone who does not appear to have the luxury of comparison shopping, then someone who works for the merchant is paid to steal it. Then the store conveniently has only one and that is pre-sold (The Pandas, after all, is like the Nintendo WII of Korea). This gives them the opportunity to take the desperate sucker for a 600% markup. As an added bonus, they later get to restock the hijacked panda.
BTW, I hope no Koreans or Pandas take offense. This is pure speculation, and not meant to discourage anyone from shopping in Korea.

Okay… what if the “cover story” is true?

8 survived the 815 crash (pacific/indian ocean/wherever).

Kate was the hero. 6 ultimately returned to civilization.

That would explain the “Jin” death after only a few months of marriage…

LOST is about the dreams of the half dozen survivees…

I agree: I think that Jin's was definitely a flashback - he had a pretty old cellphone which was the clue and that Sun's was obviously the flash toward. The headstone had the crash date as date of death which is consistent with the story that Jack told about only 8 surviving the crash with six getting off the island. So it is possible that Jin is still alive.

I agree with those of you saying that it was a flashback for Jin - makes so much more sense. Presumably they had to put his death date as 22/9/04 the date of the crash in order to back up the lie the Oceanic 6 are telling. This means that either he was left behind on the island, or he dies before the O6 leave the island. I would personally vote for the latter as otherwise why would Hurley and Sun visit a grave when they know he's still alive?

As for the Captain - I was soooo happy to see Grant Bowler. I have loved him since his days on Blue Heelers and then hosting the Aussie version of The Mole and am so happy to see him acting again after his voiceover work for Border Security. And he was looking might fine too! I hope he keeps popping up in future episodes!

@vacc #28: You amuse the heck out me. So last week it was Scarf-gate and this week you're creating Panda-monium?

@Trinity #25: The Lost casting director does a fine, fine job ;)

Oh boy - that was a great ep. A few things:

- who is good and bad? Widmore good, Ben bad? Both bad? The hot captain - why would he not care that someone hurled herself off the boat in chains?
- Sun/ Jin story made me cry. Theirs is a wonderful love/ loss story woven through the whole series. It's been a wonderful reveal. the flashback/ forward was brilliant.
- Hurley - what's up with Hurley. Is he in a mental hospital? Korea? Hanging with Charlie?
- Aaron was not on the plane when it crahed so he is not one of the Oceanic -- Let's hope Sawyer gets off the Island, cause he's so damn cute....

That's it! Great review Mac.

@#23 - Alex (Not Rousseau) "why Sun and Hurley go to the cemetery if Jin isn't buried there."
For one moment - when Sun was telling Jin about the baby - I actually expected the scene to cut to a camera behind Sun, and there would be a video monitor in the headstone, and we would see Jin talking back to her from the Island - then the word LOST. (I thought it would be like when Richard Alpert let Juliet see her sister and niece)

And for that brief moment I thought that would be the coolest thing ever!

Alright, here it goes...try to follow me:

I of course agree that Sun's swoosh is a flash-forward. I strongly do not agree that Jin's is a flash-back.

I believe that Jin's story is happening at the same time as Sun's.

When they get off the island, it's entirely possible that (whether they were on the same helicopter trip or not) Jin has somehow 'jumped' to another timeline. Such as has been noted regarding the year of the dragon, 2000.

We've seen Desmond go all the way back to 1996. Maybe the Jin flash was a simultaneous story of his conciousness being trapped in 2000 because of his exodus from the island. Did he get off the island on the wrong heading, which according to Faraday, could result in 'side effects'?

Some have speculated that Ben has mastered the art of (whatever the hell it is) time jumping. Going in and out of timelines to get cash, get information, steal dead bodies, play backgammon with Chucky Widmore, etc, etc, etc. Maybe the endgame sees Ben realize that Sun's baby, Ji Yeon, will be the first and only child ever born on the island to make it to true civilization....and he intentionally thrusts Jin to another timeline so he cannot interfere with 'whatever' (sorry, running out of ideas).

The only obvious conclusion to this is that Ji Yeon and Aaron will end up dominating the world. The Yin and Yang brought from nowhere, to rule over everywhere. Bad Twins anyone?

So out of breath.....meg, I'm drunk!!!

Good Job, Mac.

Probably there was one detail you all have missed: In the gift shop that Jin bought Panda from, remember the 2nd time, the shop owner recommended Jin a Dinosaur and told him "This is Year of Dragon...".

Well, in Chinese 12 Birth-Year system, the closest year of dragon would be either 2000, or 2012. So, the Jin's part could be more likely a flash-back, telling his story in 2000.

I think these master-minds behind Lost are too damn good for being so knowledgable.

@#23 - Alex (Not Rousseau) : back to your "why Sun and Hurley go to the cemetary if Jin isn't buried there."

For starters, I'm NOT convinced that Jin is dead. As I see it here are the possibilities -

1) Jin is dead and could actually be buried there. As someone speculated earlier, maybe the cover story was that he was one of the 2 that survived the crash but didn't advance to the final 6. Did Jack or anyone else ever specify WHEN the other 2 died? If the tale of the Oceani6 was that Jin's body made it to the Island (alive or dead), it could be exhumed and relocated for someone as rich as Sun's father.

2)Jin is dead and the stone is a monumental. I'm sure that many of the grieving 324 families talk over unoccupied graves. I really don't think that's too strange.

3) Jin is ALIVE, but the world thinks he is dead. In this case Sun, being the celebrity she now is, must publicly keep up the charade. I like this possibility the best.

Here's a cool tip that can help us avoid accidental double-posting without having to wait for the screen to stop clocking.

1)Have this page loaded in two browser windows at the same time. (Or use multiple tabs if your browser supports that)

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3) If you have more to say, simply begin typing your next comment in the new window, and by the time you press submit on this entry, you should be able to use the first browser window to see this as well.

Jin = flashback.

1. Jin's phone was circa 2000
2. Jin's attitude was pre-island. Post island Jin wouldn't threaten to hunt down and kill someone.

I bet Jin had a déjà vu moment during Sun's "I swear it's your baby" speech. It was season one for us, but only a month ago on the island when sun gave her "I swear I haven't been with anyone else" speech.
I admit that at the time, I gave Sun the benefit of the doubt, and missed a golden opportunity to ask if she could get her famous Hawaiian grandfather to sign my "Tiny Bubbles" album.
I'm not saying forgiveness is a terrible thing, but if I were Jin when Sun said "it was a long time ago".. I'd have to consult Faraday. How long ago could it have been if she thought the baby could be Jae's?

Sorry Jin, but I just wouldn't buy it. Then again, I don't suppose I'd pay 1,000 Korean Geoffrey Bucks over retail for a plush furry toy either.

I'm surprised that there is all this debate about whether Jin's sequences were flashbacks - they obviously were.

The phone was the dead give away, and the year of the dragon was a clear hint. But most of all, I suspected something was amiss by the fact that Jin was not with Sun from the get-go.

Old Jin would let something get in between, but not New English speaking Jin.

The episode was deliberately set up to mislead the viewer on so many different levels, which is no doubt going to make a lot of people confused and upset with this episode. Jin is not time traveling.

Sun asking for her husband (and then mentioning at the grave that she *forgot* he was *gone*) while at the hospital was similar to drunken drugged up Jack mentioning his father (to make the viewer think it was a flashback) in the S3 finale.

Sun's dialogue is very clever - it can easily fit both Jin being dead and Jin being stuck on the island.

Curious - where was mama and papa Paik? I found it strange that neither would be with Sun at the hospital, especially in light of the fact that Jin is missing.

re: Sun's Pregnancy

So now we know that a woman that is impregnated on the island can successfully deliver off the island. Knowing that the Others had the ability to leave the island, why would they not take the pregnant women off island to deliver instead of letting them die?

re: Kevin

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!!!"

I think some of us are being a little to strict with the naming of a group of celebrities. The Oceanic 6 would be the name the media gave them. I don't think the media would sit around and say that the baby didn't actually have a ticket, so let's think of something else. Even if there were one person that had nothing to do with the plane, say Desmond, my bet is they would still go with the name.

Michael, however, isn't one of the six since he is now Kevin Johnson. By the way, does that name match at all with the person in the coffin?

If we are to believe that Jin is dead, then the reason we got flashbacks with his subplot in tonight's story is because he *has* no future off of the island. Which is bad news for Jules, the only other character to have flashbacks rather than flashforwards this season. (I'm discounting Desmond's time-trippy weirdness as an outlier)

Jin had a flashback, Sun a flashforward.
Jin didn't make it off the island alive. Sun did.
That's what I understood.

Wow, mac, you basically need a WHOLE NEW POST.

THIS WAS A FLASH BACK/FORWARD EPISODE!

JIN=FLASHBACK
SUN=FLASHFORWARD

NGRAN=NOT GREAT REVIEW AS NEVER

Looking forward to when you fix this so I can say GRAAA (Great Review As Almost Always) mac!

I don't thing Aaron is one of the Oceanic 6, because he wasn't an actual passenger when the plane took off.

When Jin purchased the 1st Panda, Jin said something about being in China...or the clerk said it. I know heard a reference to China.

ok just to clarify the oceanic six are most likeley people who are on the planes boarding list so it cant be
Aaron
Juliet
Desmond (the freighter doesn't count)
Rousseau
Alex
Karl
or any of the others, frieght passengers or any thing like that so were pretty much lookin at
Sawyer
Locke
Claire
Rose
Bernard
Vincent

i really cant think of much more I personally have ruled out claire just because of he fact that kate has her son, rose and bernard aren't that big of characters on the show so i really dont think its one of them, vincents a dog. so my money is either on Locke or Sawyer. I dunno correct me if im wrong, its only a assumption.

I think Jin's scenes were flashbacks, and Sun's were flash-forwards. After they got married Jin started to do Sun’s dad’s bidding. Kissing but to corporate big-wigs was part of that job. At first I thought Jin was there to kill the big-wig and was one of Ben’s spies in the future, but I believe the “I have only been married 6 months” line. I think things are as straight forward as that. When they reveal something they do it.

Jin is not one of the Oceanic 6. In the lie that only 8 survived the crash and 6 got off the island includes that Jin died in the crash. All those who died on Sept 22, 2004 had to have had funerals on the mainland and some gravestones put up on their behalf even without bodies being available. Sun covers that lie by erecting this stone, but to her the baby is the most important thing. The birthdate on the left is obviously Sun’s. She wants to burried next to Jin’s “grave,” but she knows he died on the island. She knows (at this point) she cannot go back to the island, so this is her tribute. Later all (or most) of the SIX will unite and go back to the island.

Jin will die, heroically probably, soon on the island. The Oceanic 6’s, 6th "survivor" will be Aaron. Probably part of the lie is that Claire dies. Fulfilling Charlie's destiny, Claire will be on that helicopter, but since she was exposed to too much magnetism, she suffers the bloody-nose-time-shift phenomena and will die. (I assume you all know that all of the Oceanic 6 were not on the beach when the hatch blew up. The hatch is close to the beach and only those would be “exposed” to “this disease.”) Desmond had the most exposure, that why it was so easy for him to suffer the effects. The 7 of 8 (Borg reference apply applied)--- no 8th of 8 is unknown.

Walt and the future “Kevin” will be shown to make it to a “civilized” island, but Walt will be kidnapped again. He is told he must not tell anyone about the crash and that he must complete a mission. The well dressed and rich/ powerful man sitting in the shadows will be revealed as Ben!
Ben is again very rich and powerful with means off the island (see below). He will protect the island against Witmore at all costs. What a billion can do? (He has $50 B) This includes HIM getting a 777 and putting it in the Indian Ocean with 300 or so dead bodies.

The Autobiography of Ben Linus:

Introduction

You may not know it but I am one of the richest and most powerful men in the world. I am responsible for some well known, but also less well known technologies---some for military use. I believe I am one of the “good guys,” but I am also a liar, thief, and murderer. I have most importantly dedicated my life to saving the most remnarkab;e place in the world--- MY Island. I am also saving the last of an ancient and special race of people who are now safe in their Temple. It was all worth it, and I am determined to continue to fight those who want to destroy my true family.

It started when my father got a job on a beautiful island in the pacific. But at first it was not beautiful to me. My father taunted me--- not only blaming me for the death of my mother while she gave me birth, but also simply that he hated me (and himself) his entire life. I ended that life. It never occurred to me that I could be so powerful, but on the island anything can happen. I once left our protected cottages at a young age. . . and I actually saw my dead mother. She appeared to me and spoke to me. Was it a spirit, a ghost? Or was it an energy left by her in my body that manifested itself in front of me. Was I just crazy? These questions would soon no longer concern me as I would have a new purpose in life. When my mother appeared is when I realized the island was special, and that gradually, I learned that perhaps I was special too. I had found beauty.

I was soon befriended by an ancient race of miraculous people that have been on the island for thousands of years. They were quite interested that someone new to the island could feel its special affects. They adopted me and became my real family. They even accepted me with all of my faults. Believe it or not, some of those ancient people did not seem to age. But I did. The Ancients, as I call them, would never suffer from disease, and if they did get hurt their wounds would heal tremendously fast. I later would find that I would not be the only newcomer to the island with special gifts or what I would call that “special connection” to the island. One man was a paraplegic and the instant he hit (literally hit) the island, he could walk. One could see the future. There was a boy who could be in more than one place at a time. So many fantastic stories.

I will explain in future chapters how I took part in a movement that killed hundreds of the members of the DHARMA initiative, a subsidiary of a multi-national anti-moral economic machine that continues to be my sworn enemy---This was run by Charles Witmore. There was a reason I kill and still kill. DHARMA’s evil scientists studied these strange natives with these great powers like RATS. When there was some resistance, DHARMA conspired to murder all of them because of their own paranoid fears. I would not let that happen. I will further explain how I used what I basically stole to become the billionaire I am today. I used and continue to use the influence of wealth to not only protect what I have, but also my true family on the island. Oh, I have my problems, and all families have problems. I am selfish and really like to get my way. I’m greedy, but I don’t want others to see it. I do seek things sexual, but only on my private trips to Thailand. And I really hate it when strangers get in the way.

Is it technology governing the islands or the spirits—God--faith? Is it natural forces governing the islands or the spirits—God--faith? Were these “effects” created by DHARMA themselves? My belief, and it’s just a belief, is that the nature of the island gave man a way to use parts of his mind he never thought possible. Shoot, maybe the island itself is alive? In any case it is quite amazing because even the mind or spirit or energy of the dead can be alive on that island. Am I the crazy one? No. I have known many natives with amazing and intensely diverse powers. A bit of it was given to me and I am truly thankful. Whether it was really my mother or not did not matter because she gave me something my father never could, to feel loved by a new family.

DHARMA studied these phenomena, but I took it away from them--- I took their technology, what they discovered and thus, my money stems from them. I made it so no one but myself or my friends could come and go from the island. I tried to make it so the Ancients would never be bothered again. I tried to create a utopian society working on saving mankind. I wanted to help the infertile have children, so many things I’ve done and tried to do, but alas, there seems to be another mystery with the island. It not only can hide, but in can GRAB things. Boats, helicopters, planes--- once caught up in these strange forces, they crash here. Some live through it.

I am determined to keep the Ancients alive, to keep DHARMA away from the island. I am willing to die for it--- and kill for it. I am one of the good guys, after all.

Chapter One . . .

This show is great! Keep it up.

Yes, Jin was not recognized as "famous"--- he is not one of the SIX--- all of the SIX are very recognizable. Proof his was a flashback.

The guy at the toy store tells Jin, and I quote verbatim, "In the year of the dragon, it brings good luck"--the Year of the Dragon is 2000

A flashback!

I think the gravestone was erected by Jin's/Sun's families as they were lead to believe everyone on the plane was killed, thus the birthdates of Jin and Sun both on the gravestone. There would only be one date of death as they were both thought to have died on the date of the crash. The gravestone was already there when Sun left the island. There are probably a lot of gravstones that have been placed for the presumed dead.

Ahhh...a flashforward and flashback episode. Those Lost writers are brilliant bastards!

Okay, the big debate. The Oceanic Six. Please remember everyone, before Aaron was revealed as being with Kate, ABC was running promos telling us, we'd be getting a new answer to who the 6 were that week.

Aaron was introduced that week, therefore he was one of the 6. Like it or not, we have to trust the promos to an extent don't we? For those of you who still say he wasn't, please tell me who else was revealed that week as clearly being off the island. Someone had to be or ABC was outright lying to millions of people.

Second time we've seen a cell phone used to date an off island sequence. Remember Jack's first flashforward?

I saw Mac and some others referenced Ben having something to do with the staged crash. Did I miss something? I never saw anything in the show that led me to believe outright that Ben was involved.

My interpretation of the Captain's comments about the crash was that Widmore is so intent on finding this island that he was nervous about people searching (and accidentally finding the island) in the island area for 815 so he quelled all searching efforts by creating a fake crash scene. A guy who would do that is pretty intent on his mission. I'd be curious to know if this was anyone else's interpretation.

Last thing...yes, I think Jin died trying to get Sun off the island safely. Again, going by ABC promos, they told us someone was going to die this week didn't they? However, I did like the thought of one of the previous posters about different timelines being created as people go on and off the island. At first, this is what I thought was going on with the Sun/Jin thing.

Looking forward to reading the comments!

Thanks Mac

@onelostdude - Can someone else call "MIF" ??? :)

I do believe Jin is dead, that he dies on the island somehow. But, with Lost it's hard to call. In the scenes for next week they make a point of saying someone will die. Then they flash Jin's face...seems a little too predictable. But there again, so was Michael being MOTB

I'm up to post #9 - back to work reading

For a minute there, I thought Sun and Hurley were together. Hurley seemed happy he was the only one who showed up. Really, that other date has to be significant. Maybe when Jun left the island he was going back and forth between being in 1980, and that killed him....but in 1980. Weird, I know...okay, I'm up to #19

Excellent catch for those that mentioned the "Year of the Dragon". That's key to confirm that Jin's panda scenes were a flashback. According to Wikipedia, the most recent year of the dragon were:

# 17 February 1988 - 5 February 1989: Earth Dragon
# 5 February 2000 - 23 January 2001: Metal Dragon

And the next one will be:

# 2012 - 2013: Water Dragon

So, the writers did mess with us and have Sun's scenes as a flash forward and Jin's scenes as a flash back -- all in the same episode. The writers/producers did say that they would not present those flash forward out of sequence, but I don't think that there was ever any mention of having flash backs and flash forwards in the same episode.

Marty.

@ #5 - Eggo - Thanks for the vote! But unfortunately, I have too many skeletons in my closet to take office... I swear I didn't inhale!!

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^

As for this episode - Let me do my job and Nay Say any "Jin is living in a different dimension" theorists... although I wouldn't bet my money on whether he is really dead or really still on the island, I would bet my money on the fact that SUN HAD A FLASHFORWARD and JIN HAD A FLASHBACK - both in the same episode. Good device used by the writers... see comment #41 and also comments that include the fact that the year was the "Dragon."

^*^*^*^*^*^*^**^*^

Was Michael older looking? Grayish hair, wrinkled face? Kinda like how Walt grew and is now "Tall Walt," could Michael have aged as well?

Some stay young - Alpert. Some grow old - Walt, Michael...

Chew on that for awhile...

MR.NAYSAYER

Flashback or Flashforward:

I think the comments about the phone, Year of the Dragon and Jin's general attitude, dress and demeanor make it clear it is a flashback. He was so nonchalant about being a Dad, never would have happened with post-Island Jin.

Jin - Dead or Alive:

I go with dead. No so much because Sun went to his grave, but because Hurley did. If Jin died on the day of the crash, there is no real reason for Hurley to pretend they were close. Hurley came because he wanted to honor his dead friend. Sometime in the next several months of Lost Time, Jin is going to die.

Oceanic Six:

Here, I am flummoxed.

O5= Kate, Jack, Sun, Hurley & Sayid.
O1= ?????? If we only include people away from the hatch, that would mean Aaron could not be O1. Assuming Baby = Immune somehow, he is a possibility.

But the producers say that at the end of the episode the mystery of who the six are would be revealed. The only other people we KNOW that were on the island in "real time" that are off the island in future time are Ben and Aaron. Of the two, I go with Aaron. BUT that brings up the other issue of Jack's testimony - 8 survived, 2 died, Kate saved the other 5. Aaron could not have been one of those . . . But I guess another of the 6 could have died, replaced by Kate. My head hurts.

Michael: The only other new reveal was Michael - and he, and Walt, were away from the hatch when it blew. So other than the promise we would know the O6 by this episode, I would say they are still in play.

Why is Michael Ben's man on the boat? Why would he leave Walt behind in the real world, after all he did to save him? My guess is that Walt is not doing well away from the island and that he is either committed somewhere, or taken by Widmore or other forces, and Ben has convinced Michael that only Ben can save Walt.

Captain Gault:

Do we know his first name yet? Because if it is John we have a whole new set of books to read . . . Who Is John Galt?

I think it is Walt doing the tapping. What I can't figure out is how Michael went from trying to get to freedom, to being another person on the freighter. Oh, and what a yucky freighter it is. Who would sign up for that job?? With people blowing themselves away and all. What about that new room for Des and Sayid...ick! The captain (yes, very hot Clementine) said that being in such close proximity to the island was making them a little crazy.

The whole Michael thing does bother me. I don't like his face, with that scowl. I don't like his character. Ben obviously did something to manipulate him after he left the island, and I hope we get to see some Michael flashbacks next week (from when he left the island).

I think Jin is alive and well on the island. Sun knows he is alive, and in the heat of things forgets and calls out for him.

Hurley wants to return to the island. And now he's trying to recruit people for a return trip. What better person to start with then someone who left their spouse behind?

I agree with everyone that Sun was a flash-forward and Jin was a flash-back. I think maybe the panda might have some significance in the future with Sun and her baby as there was such an emphysis put on that particular stuffed animal. I'm not sure if Jin is really dead, or just could not leave the island with Sun (maybe not enough room and someone had to stay behind). He would certainly insist on his wife and unborn child leave without him rather than miss an opportunity to get off the island. They are certainly being protective of the ones who did stay on the island by letting everyone believe there were no other survivors. I know someone was supposed to "die" in this episode, but do we take that literally. We have found out that things are not always as they seem.

I am going with the theory that the gravestone is for show, because everyone in the real world is supposed to think Jin died in the crash, and Sun was visiting his grave to be "near" him and she was crying simply because she misses him. The date of death on the stone confirms this. If he got off the island and died, the date would be another one. The part of the show with Jin was a flashBACK to when he was 2 months married (2000, the Year of the Dragon) and confirmed by the old cell phone. It was done to throw us off, like the writers love to do.

Jin's was a FlashBACK, Sun's was a FlashFORWARD!! How did anyone miss that one???????

Lots of thoughts that Mac didn't get to have been brought up on the board. Here's what I thought of in the episode as possibly being significant:

- The book Regina is reading by Jules Verne (had to rewind the TiVo to get the title - The Survivors of the Chancellor)
- TV show playing in Sun's room right before she goes into labor. Again, another person posted the name of the show, but doubt that it's relevant.
- It didn't hit me til the end, but Jin was acting very much like he did before the island. I think the telling parts were his desperation in getting the second panda, as well as telling the taxi-cab stealer he'd kill him, do bad things, etc.
- Speaking of the taxi incident, did anyone, at the time, feel it was important to find out who took the cab and knocked out his cell phone? The guy seemed to be in a big hurry (I know, it's in the city), but it seemed staged for some reason.
- My Lost memory may be WAY off, but IF Ben is behind the plane crash, could he have used the bodies from the Dharma purge when his dad died? Did they get rid of all those bodies, or would they have sufficed as stand ins for the Oceanic "deceased"?
- I've seen this mentioned elsewhere, but when Sun's baby was first handed to her in the hospital, did it look like she had Down's Syndrome? I only ask because I know people have commented that it appears Aaron has Down's. Not sure if this is significant, or if I had that in my head and was just seeing something.

Was anyone else annoyed at the whole comical aspect of Jin's flash (back/forward...I'm not calling it yet)?

I have to admit that this episode was not one of my favorites. It was the first time I felt a bit disappointed...there, I've said it.

@RNM - Sober for six days now.....but tonight is going to be another story!! I'll meet you halfway across Alligator Alley for a drink...:)

And I thought the Oceanic Six were set now, but this may be less clear cut??

Jack
Kate
Hurley
Sayid
Aaron (?)
Sun

But hey, maybe I'm lost too...

Great Blog Mac, Confusing episode, I cant figure out Flash back, or Flash foward... Year of dragon was 2000 but they are Japanese aren't they? Yikes Someone figure this out and explain to me please!

Good point, they are Japanese, that means Jin is living in China.

Favorite Mac line: - Next week she'll confront Ben about his bug eyes.

Conspiracy Theories:

@Vacc #20 – Dr. and Nurse both Others? I wondered the exact same thing.

@Vacc #28 – Panda taxi fiasco was a con. Yes! And the whole bumping into Jin and stealing his taxi reminded me of Desmond on the army base as he's approaching the pay phone and gets jostled.

@Red...Neck...Man #36 – Ji Yeon and Aaron dominating the world. I'll buy that. Ben's biggest problem (besides the tumor and bug-eyes) is kids can't be conceived on the island, so the only way he can replenish his army of good (evil?) is to get them birthed off the island then bring 'em back later.

Ben having the flight manifest and dossiers on all the passengers = in cahoots with Oceanic Airlines.

I think they were Korean!

KONNICHIWA

One other point in this episode that I hope is further explored has to do with the boat drifting towards the island. If they don't get those engines fixed, then there's going to be a good story revolving around the boat, and the people on it.

I'm looking forward to the Podcasts on this episode. Hopefully the Producers will clarify a few issues for us.

I’m still not sure how I feel about this episode, besides confused.
I think, for some as yet unknown reason, Jin needs to appear to be dead. Perhaps he made a deal with whoever is making these things happen so he could save Sun.
My impression of Jin’s flash was that it was forward. My immediate impression was that he is searching to find out when/if Sun has given birth. It seemed to me that when he heard it was a boy, he lost interest. It’s possible he knows the sex of the child. Maybe he isn’t working for Paik at all, just using that as an in to the hospital. As a flashback, I don’t see the significance of it in the whole scheme of things, and given that they have a limited (and pre-determined)amount of time to tell this story in, why would they waste it on a flashback just to bend our minds? Married 2 months – maybe this is part of the cover-up. I did miss the part about the year of the dragon, but still think this was a flash forward. Sun asking for her husband during the birth may have been the truth coming out, and her subsequent “I forgot you were gone” was an explanation to anyone who may overhear it for what she said. And why, when Sun told Hurley that no one else was coming, did he say “good”?
I believe that all of the O-6 would have been on the manifest. That rules out anyone who was already on the island and Aaron. What if Michael is # 6? We were told that the final 2 would be revealed in this episode. No one else was conclusively revealed besides Sun. None of the other possibilities were even in this episode. I so wanted it to be Sawyer!
I guess my question about Ben and all the bodies is how the heck did he get them all there? And where did he get the fake plane? How do you plant a large plane and that many bodies without anyone being aware if it?

I don't have time to read every blog entry, so I'll just post my thoughts and then try to read them all before next week!

Sun's were flash forwards.
Jin's were flashbacks.

I say this because it was once since that 8 survived the crash, but only 6 came home. Thus alowing for the theory that Jin was one of the 8, allowing for the conception timeline, but somehow he did not make it on to the rescue vehicle to bring the Oceanic Siz back. Who is the other one of the 8 that did not survive? My guess, Claire.

Thus explaining why Kate has Aaron.

I think Aaron might be the 6th member. I can see how he might not be since he wasn't "born" yet, but he was ready to come out and he did survive.

Apparently turning over Jack, Sawyer, Kate, and Hurley was only part of Michael's deal with Ben. Living on a boat under a new identity was the other. But where is Walt?

I thought it was a great episode. I think Benard's Karma speech was foreshadowing. For those that strive to do good, doos will eventually come. (Jack always striving to help and get everyone rescued, and he eventually gets off the island.) And for those who commit acts of immoral behavior, more doom will come. (I love the Locke character, but he just seems to be getting deeper and deeper into a downhill spiral. He gets more confused with every tidbit of info Ben feeds him.)

Great epsisode, and thanks Mac for taking the time to put the tidbits n order, I know that time is of the essence in our lives. Well done.

Are they North or South Koreans? Is Kim Il Jung behind any of this? I hear
he's a big fan of the show.

Are they North or South Koreans? Is Kim Il Jung behind any of this? I hear
he's a big fan of the show.

Jin definitely = flashback (phone, year of the dragon, looks younger, more eager demeanor)
Jin is in CHINA--a panda is the mascot of China, hence the stuffed panda being "very popular". For those of you whose geographical knowledge is lacking, China isn't that far from Korea, and Jin and Sun are KOREAN (not Japanese). Jin mentions that the Korean Mr. Paik is proud to do business with the Chinese business associate who just had a grandchild that Jin brought the stuffed panda to.
Sun = flash forward. I also wonder why her father wasn't there.
I believe Jin is alive on the island and Hurley/Sun have to keep up the pretense that he is dead.
It may have been gimmicky, but I totally loved the way this episode messed with my head.
Maybe the freighties' mental issues are a shout-out to Stephen King's "The Shining" ("All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.")

Are they North or South Koreans? Is Kim Il Jung behind any of this? I hear he's a big fan of the show.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Re: the flash-forward/flash-back thing ... while I certainly think all signs are pointing to Jin's segment as a flashback, I'm still not entirely sold on it. RNM brings up an interesting point about Jin potentially jumping around the timeline, just as Desmond did. As we've seen, the time issues seem to impact people in different ways (at this point, we've seen Desmond and Minkowski shuffle around the space-time continuum, and it looks like Regina and Brandon were doing the same thing).

I *think* Jin's sequence was a strict flashback, but given what we've seen this season, I'm not entirely sure that's the case.

I'll also admit I was fooled during the episode!

* And just a note regarding weird-looking kids: there are a lot of them, and they tend to look really weird when they first wake up and, most notably, when they're first born. I really, truly don't think the "Lost" crew would introduce Downs as a plot device.

I don't want this to take off in an entirely new direction, but I feel compelled to say that I would imagine most parents of children with Downs sydrome think their babies are beautiful and not weird looking.
I also agree with Mac that the writers would not use this as a plot device.

I wonder who blew their brains out in the room that Sayid and Des will be staying?

(00)(00)(00)(00)(00)(00)(00)

If last week this forum dwelled on that friggin' scarf with hundreds of nonfunny quips and puns... it looks as if this one is headed towards PANDA jokes already - i.e. "panda-moan-ium" etc... I'm bracing myself already, yet probably too early.

(long exasparated sigh...)

Mr.Naysayer

It was also pretty interesting how Bernard referred to himself as on of the "good guys". Any significance there?

I guess you could say Jin "scarfed up that panda". This show confuses the heck outa me, meanwhile i got people here not working and discussing the show! Go on ready and pick up a ticket!

#42:
I was wondering the same thing so I went back to look at the newspaper clipping, and the name is something that starts with Jo--- and the last name ends with --atham so it can't be Kevin Johnson, but maybe he has another alias??

I've seen it posted on other forums (can't take credit for it), that the show Sun was watching right before she went into labor was "Expose" starring Nikki of the infamous "Paulikki" duo. Thought that was interesting.

@83 meg and 74 David

Yes, you guys are right on about Bernards Karma speech. His statement about Locke being a murderer and not one of the good guys was I think a big message from the writers to us.

Also, I see lots of folks getting hung up on the 8 vs. 6 thing. Didn't the producers in a recent podcast say don't worry about the 2 who died as they weren't relevant to the story?

2000 was the most recent Year of the Dragon in Asian culture

2005 was the year of the Rooster

I think this confirms the fact that in last night's ep. the Jin/Panda/hospital visit was a flashBACK to his early days of marriage and work with mob boss Mr Paik. The Sun/hospital/baby and graveside visit were flashFORWARDS to after-island life.

I predict that next week Jin will be killed (sorry bud) and that Sun makes it a point to create a grave in his memory once she leaves the island.

There you go again Naysayer. You are one sly dude, attempting to usurp the blog. I for one refuse to participate in such silliness this early on, except for the occasional MIF reference.

I started watching the enhanced episodes, and whoever it was who mentioned it last week is right. Those episodes do answer many questions. One from last week was touched upon, but I can't put my finger on it right now...what it was. I do remember wanting to log on and add it to the blog, but thought no one would be looking at that page this late in the game.

The panda was for the Chinese ambasador in Korea, Jin said the car company wants to do business there. I have never seen such sloppy viewing in all my years.

The panda was for the Chinese ambasador in Korea, Jin said the car company wants to do business there.
The promotions said a person would be revealed in Kate's episode, the only new person revealed was Aaron. Last night the 6th person was revealed, so we know all 6 now.

I have never seen such sloppy viewing in all my years.

Im so confuseddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought it was clear as hell that Jin's was a FB and Sun's was a FF. And I've yet to see or read anything to convince me otherwise.

My only question was did Jin make it off the island, and I think the dates on the tombstone put that one to bed. He did not.

I believe Jin's Panda Adventure was due to the fact that the Chinese Ambassador was becoming a grandfather, and Mr. Paik sent Jin to do some royal sucking up as evidenced by his low bowing and eyes to the floor.

Interspersing these scenes with Jin's proclaiming to Sun that he used to be a different person only illustrated his point.

And yeah, who blew their brains out in Des and Sayid's spacious new accommodations? Cabin fever my ass...

Mac - Great recap !

Great episode ! I'm convinced we watched a combo flashback-forward. That really messed with my head. Right up until Jin made the comment to the nurse about only having been married for two months. Then I said "WHOA" and it hit me like a ton of bricks. The writers really threw us a curve ball with that one.

I don't know if anyone above posted a translation of what was written in Korean on the headstone, but if there is a translation I'd love to know what it said. The dates are intriguing, but until there's a translation of the text we won't know for sure why 9/22/2004 is referenced. Until then I'm gonna hold to Jin being #6 of the Oceanic 6.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this in a previous post (I haven't had a chance to go through them all yet), but did Michael look 'older' when he came out of the shadows for the big reveal? I thought he did and then it hit me - I flashed back (whoosh sound and all) to the end of season 2, when Ben let Michael and Walt go he gave them a heading that was 5 degrees off of the one that Daniel told Frank he had to stay on to avoid side affects. Is it possible that Ben's coordinates sent Michael and Walt a few years into the past? It would explain Walt's unexpected growth spurt when he re-appeared as TGW. It would also explain how Michael was able to be recruited by Ben, create a false identity and become a part of the freighter crew. He probably wouldn't have been able to do that in less than 2 months unless he was sent to the past. And lastly it would explain how Michael and Walt could return to the 'real world' and not be considered part of the Oceanic 6. I'm sure my theory is full of more holes than swiss cheese - countless paradox issues.

That's all I got.

Looking forward to hearing more about the BLACKBOX and what is being said on it - the whole crashed/fake plane is a cool storyline - where the dead people come from, etc...

Also - did or didn't Michael (Kevin Johnson) look extremely old and weathered? Possible fast aging like Walt? Anyone... anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

According to the pop-ups on last night's rebroadcast of "The Other Woman" it IS Annie that Harper was referring to when she told Juliet "You look just like her."

Also....why the heck has Sayid or Desmond not asked someone when they are going back to rescue their friends left on the beach? I mean seriously, why have they not inquired about a plan when it has been several days! They haven't even asked Lipidus, have they?

OK, being that nothing on this show is to be taken for granted and everything means something, then maybe the show Expose playing in Sun's room was a hint to the viewers that Jin's not really dead (like Paulikki)

And speaking of nothing being done for no reason on this show...in the enhanced pop-ups of last weeks show, the writers made a POINT of telling us that Goodwin's last name was Stanhope. Anyone know any connections to that name?
I can't believe there aren't any Korean Lost fans out there!!! If there are, will you PLEASE translate the writing on the headstone!?!?

I’m kind of disappointed. All that time on the freighter & still no mention of Naomi! I keep waiting for her to pop out from under that blanket & say, “Who’s a girl got to sleep with to get some breakfast around here?”

I hope we get some Regina flashbacks so we can find out why she was so hell bent on turning herself into Dharma shark food.

I did catch the Eloise cameo. I thought she looked pretty good as a brunette.

But seriously, I agree that all indications are that Jin’s story was a flashback BUT did I see some grey hair around his temples? That would make him older than he was on the island.

With all the conspiracy & cover up involved, can we be sure that only 6 made it off the island? What if there are other 815ers who made it off but are being coerced/blackmailed
To remain silent & just fade away?

My two cents:

I agree w/those who think Jin's was Flash-back, definitely.

Also, Jin said he would do whatever it takes to get Sun off the island, whether that means he died getting her off or if he had to stay behind I don't know.

As far as the promo saying someone would die, well, the woman who jumped of the ship in chains meets that criteria - even though she wasn't one of our characters.

And, my thoughts on the Oceanic 6:

Definites: Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sun. They've all been noted for their celebrity.

Possible: Aaron and Sayid. Aaron possible rather than definite because as everyone mentions he wasn't born til after the flight. And Sayid, possible, and this may open a can of worms, but what if he isn't officially off the island. We know he works for Ben after the island and we know Ben is able to get people on and off the island quietly. So what if Sayid is, officially, one of the victims of 815 - not one of the survivors.

Although, the promos did say we'd know the 6, and I don't see that we've been shown any other possibilities at this point.

Anyway, I thought the episode was fantastic!

Sun-forward, Jin-back!

Who is #6? (Who is Number One? YOU ARE Number 6!) Let's look at my post from "The Constant" #32. Non-magnetized people, and at the time unknown O6's were Sawyer, Sun, Jin, Michael, and Walt. Sun has made it off the bubble since then. With the people left Jin is considered dead and explaining Too Tall Walt to the public would be difficult (9 inches in 3 months? that's a heckuva growth spurt)

My guess is Sawyer. He would be the one Kate has to 'get back to' and would keep Jack from wanting to visit the Happy Home. Why does Jack not want to go see Aaron? Because it NOT Turniphead Aaron. It is Skate Lovechild Aaron. (Collect them all!) Jack can't handle that Kate is lied to Sawyer in Bensylvania about being pregnant but she fears having the child on the island because of the killer baby syndrome.

Here's how I predict it will come down: They are about to leave the island and Jin is going with Sun but Kate reveals that she is pregnant and has to get off the island. Jin and Sun have a heart wrenching decision but Jin decides to be gallant and allow Kate to leave instead of him. This would explain why Sun was hysterically calling for Jin. She knows he is still alive. Why did Sawyer get to go???????

I think everyone who is questioning if Aaron in one of the 6 should just for a minute step back and think of this from the world's point of view versus the Lost point of view. If a plane crashed and everyone was thought to be dead and then a boat shows up with survivors, there are going to be group pictures taken of the 6 survivors, right? And if one is a baby, he is going to be counted as #6. The media at large does NOT care who was on the manifest or not. I can picture a front page news photo of our 5 adults and 1 baby and a headline saying: "6 survivors found from Oceanic 815." The media would not discount a baby, come ON. In fact, it would be a big story that a baby survived. And the promos did tell us we'd meet the last member of Oceanic 6.

I am definitely on the Jin had a flashback boat. Very manipulative and tricky! Whether he is alive on the island or not is another thing I have no opinion on yet--definitely not enough info. But I thought the episode made it very clear that Jin was a changed man, and if anyone thinks he would go back to Korea and then within 6 months have divorced Sun, gotten remarried and be working for the mob again??? Tell me how that makes sense in your little brain.

I was interested that via Juliet we got our timeline--sometime in the next 3 weeks to a month of Island Time our 6 will need to get off or else Sun will start down the road to death (the first week was just constant nausea, said Juliet, so I extended our time to a month). So the next 2 1/2 years of episodes should be taking only a month up of Island Time.

And what's with someone always suggesting the kids look like they have Down Syndrome? Someone said that about Aaron, too. You guys must not see that many babies/kids!

Enjoyed your review a lot Mac, as always. ("Next week she'll confront Ben about his bug eyes." HA!)

I totally started eating my hat early in the episode! Thinking Sun & Jin were in a common flash-forward, so that they were numbers 5 & 6. Then when I realized Jin's was a flashback (old phone, year of the dragon, threatening to kill cab stealer, married two months...) I felt totally vindicated and got to stop hat-munching. Especially when they showed his gravestone dod as the date of the plane crash. Leads me to believe he never got off the island.

I don't believe they're doing any time-shifting with Jin...I think the writers just wanted to keep us on our 4-toes by mixing the flash-back with the flash-forward. Those clevuh bahstids.

I do think that Jin is dead though...Sun's speech and emotions really point that way, and I don't think they would've visited the grave site if both Hurley and Sun knew Jin was (potentially) still alive. Nobody was watching them, no media was around, so they didn't have to go to the cemetery to put on a show.

→ 33. ts
- Aaron was not on the plane when it crahed so he is not one of the Oceanic --
Yes, he was on the plane. He was in Claire's belly. Are you trying to say Claire's uterus was not on the plane either???

→ 46. Lisa
I don't thing Aaron is one of the Oceanic 6, because he wasn't an actual passenger when the plane took off.

Okay, that's true, but he ended up on the island because of the plane crash, and since he's off the island now with Kate (a confirmed O6'er), that leads me to believe he was rescued with her, so he's one of the celebrity 6.

Most downs-babies are really cute, and Ji Yean was adorable...but neither Aaron nor Ji Yeon have it. Never even crossed my mind when Sun first held her. I agree with Mac that this would be a poor plot device to introduce, and hopefully we can put this theory to bed now.

The Michael-reveal was pretty anti-climactic for me, but maybe average-Joe Lost watcher was shocked. I hope Sayid really makes Michael tell the whole story next week...and it's not dragged out any longer.

Still keeping my hats and choco-hats handy until next week...but I think I'll still be hungry!!!

Unfortunately I had too much free time yesterday and I spoiled myself before last night's episode. BUT I will say that it helped while watching the episode to catch things (meanwhile my 12 year old son was going WHAAA????)

Have a few questions regardless

Are we to infer from the captain's comment (where would someone get 324 dead bodies) that Ben used the "Purge" remains, but didn't Ben show Locke a mass grave last season, but didn't one of those people have a gun shot wound on the skeleton? nose bleed time

I really didn't like that Korean doctor, no bed side manner, I thought for sure he was a "plant" to do harm

What did it mean that the delivery was hard on Sun, were there still island after effect complications?

Why have Hurley come to Korea to visit the grave with Sun, do they really think they are being that closely watched? Seems lame.

I agree that Jin is still alive (Sun says "I miss you so much"), good writing)

Whats up with the Lima Beans, gotta mean something!

I think the main reason Hurley visited Sun was to see the baby, and he went with her to the cemetery as a bonus.

→ 102. Noelle

GREAT GREAT GREAT post Noelle, the most clear and perfect first paragraph in the history of this blog. The rest was good too.

→ 101. PiecesofArzt

Sorry PoA, but I think you're totally wrong. The one Kate had to get back to was confirmed to be Aaron. And Kate's Aaron is Claire's Aaron, as confirmed by the producers...who also confirmed Sayid is definitely one of the Oceanic 6. He even mentioned it to that dude on the golf course before he blew him away, and the dude then seemed to recognize Sayid. Kate really is not preggo either. It's great to theorize and speculate...but I just think you're a bit off this time.

Believe me I'll admit I'm wrong and apologize if anything you wrote somehow ends up being true!

Does "pop-up Lost" bother anyone else?

It seems unfair somehow that facts will be put out that you don't get unless you are willing to watch the repeat.

Amazing shift on this episode, with the use of foward and backward on the flashes. I'm picturing an eventual episode where this starts happening for multiple characters, and will require a copy of the script to track it all.

Brilliant writing though.

Btw, as far as the helicopter goes... it is on it's way back to the island, but it won't arrive until tomorrow night. Just in time for episode 8. :)

Two random "morning after" thoughts:

(1) Perhaps Harold Perrineau isn't playing Michael but rather a grown-up version of Walt. How freaky would that be?

(2) Maybe Regina plummeted to her watery death b/c she was distraught over her dead lover...Naomi. Remember Naomi's bracelet engraved with "I'll always be with you. RG" Could that RG be Regina perhaps?

I love this show...and the fact that it is a huge distraction from work. Which I simply must get back to!

Good not great episode. Desmond's time-jumping still reigns supreme.

To settle the whole flashback/forward thing: in one of the recent enhanced episodes, the pop-up video wannabes made a point about how you can tell a forward from a backward. It has to do with the "whooshing" noise. If I recall correctly, and I probably don't, forwards have them AFTER the scene and then "whoosh" we go "back" to the present. Flashbacks are the opposite, they have the noise before the scene. I think. Or, forwards dont have the noise at all? Anyways, when you re-watch it, look for any differences in the whoosh noises, and that will tell us if it is a flashback for Jin, forward for Sun.

I agree with whoever brought it up before. WTF is going on with Naomi? They havent even showed the crew taking her body off the 'copter or anything. Although, clearly, this crew has a serious lack of respect for the dead... I'm a big Naomi conspiracy theorist. We havent seen the last of her. She is far too bad ass.

In last night's enhanced episode, the pop-up vidoes reference the survivors Ben is interested in, and how they are on a list that JACOB gave to him. Did we already know this? If not, then it seems plausible the O6 were determined by Jacob for some higher purpose... right?

@ petew -- The captain of the freighter could have been implying, when he asked "who has all the resources to do this" (Crash the fake plane, fill it with bodies etc.) that Widmore actually had all the resources, and was THAT intent on getting to Ben that he would arrange all of that. Then again, Ben could have had some leftover purgees to use as body doubles... but there seemed to be an awful lot of bodies still on the island from the purge, stored in the pit of despair where Ben left Locke to die....

@erons -- i agree, it did seem planned that the guy was supposed to knock the phone out of Jin's hand. It could have been enemies of Paik.

The writers are clearly setting us up for at least one, probably more, showdowns.

So far we have been introduced to two very wealthy, unscrupulous, power-hungry families with significant ties to the island. the Paik's and Widmore's. Are they in it together against Ben, or are they actually against each other, and Ben works for one of them???

Locke vs. Jack -- clearly, Locke is kind of a bad dude, but loves the island. Jack isnt as much of a bad dude (though he would have killed Locke, through no fault of his own), and honestly tries to help everyone.. sometimes to a fault. And Jacob has eyes on both of them.

So we've got Ben vs. Widmore, potentially Widmore vs. Paik, potentially Ben vs. Widmore/Paik supercombo, Jack vs. Locke, Kate vs. Juliet, and somewhere I'm sure, Joe vs. the Volcano.

As a side note, I hate Juliet and her whorish mouth. But, I gotta say, shes been looking pretty fly the past couple episodes...

thats what I got.

xo
-chopkins

Even though it was a letdown to see Michael as Ben's man on the ship it still better than having it been a dug up Poopy Paolo pop out of the captains head.

For ILBLXX: The anagram fro lima beans is Ben Salami ... just thought you'd like to know

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention: WTF was up with Lapidus and the big freighter bouncer meeting secretly that night on the helicopter pad? Didn't big goon #1 (forget his name) tell Grilled Stuft Burrito Lapidus not to be late, or somethign along those lines?? Do we have any idea what that was all about???

On the lighter side, did anybody else at least have it in the back of their mind that Sun's baby would have Ben's head? Would that have turned TV's most intellectual/thoughtful/amazing show into "Show Most Quickly Turned On By Its Devoted Fans To The Point Of Homicidal Rage"?

Regarding the bodies on the plane. Not to be too gross about it, but wouldn't they need to be slightly *fresher* than bodies from the time of Ben's purge?

I think that was the creepy point. How do you get a bunch of NEW dead people?

The implications are clear, but it's an awful lot of people to suddenly... acquire.

The only thing that might - MIGHT - hint that Jin's was a flashforward is that when he called for a taxi he shouted "taxi" (aka speaking English). Unless, of course, taxis are called taxis in Korean.

Am I first? Just kidding Meg...we all know you're # 1. Nice job with the review this week Mac. That makes me feel like I'm not the only one whose head hurts from watching lately.

My only thought was that when the baby was born she would spit out a long green alien toungue like in the old t.v. mini-series "V."

You're right Duf, they would have to be fairly 'fresh' dead bodies, so couldn't be anyone from Ben's Dharma-gassing episode.

I initially thought the Cap was talking about Widmore financing the fake-plane and getting the dead bodies...but thanks to my precious DVR I rewound and now I've got it. He said Widmore spent mega-bucks to acquire the black box AFTER it was recovered from the fake wreckage. Then he went on to say why they (Cap & Widmore) want Benjamin Linus so badly...that it would take considerable resources to fake that plane crash...not to mention where & how he (meaning Ben) got 324 real-live dead bodies. (Is that an oxymoron?) They want to know how Ben pulls off what he does, where he gets his financial resources and man-power to do what he does, and they want Ben to reveal any and all island secrets.

I LOVE this recap more than any other, especially the way the comments are laid out. But does anybody go to other sites? EW has lots of great stuff, but wondering what other sites people go to. MAC - I go to your site first!

the captian said they were trying to leave,but someone kept sabotaging the boat---why would bens man on the boat want them to stay around

not sure if anyone posted this... but you can clearly see michael in the background just after when regina jumps off the boat

Great recap!

I personally think:

1. Jin is NOT dead. He is back on the island. Hurley & Sun have to visit the grave because they are famous and lying about what REALLY happened on the island, so it is expected that a new mother would visit the grave of her "dead" husband. It totally works, too. Sun says, "I miss you, I miss you." That's because Jin is not dead. He is back on the island.

2. Totally a flash forward + a flash back. The writers messed with us, and it worked, LOL!

3. Today I am obsessed with the pipes on the ship. Why did they make a big deal out of Sayid saying that it must be PERSON banging on the pipes. Who would bang on pipes?

erons-
No time to go to any other sites, and the few times I have it just wasn't as satisfying as this one. Best reviews, best comments by posters, best atmosphere, least amount of negativity and personal attacks, etc etc. Filmfodder rocks.

Thanks for the updates regarding flashback, etc.

GRAAA, mac!

@ Matt-DC

I was also curious about the pipes. I thought for sure Sayid was going to go into full-on Republican Guard pimp mode and decipher some kind of morse code, secret message in the pipe-banging.... still could happen...

xo
-chopkins

#112. Posted by: erons at March 14, 2008 10:40 AM

On the lighter side?? I practically lost my lunch reading that one. I still can't stop laughing. That is one sick, sick, funny as all hell, and sick idea...lol!! Or, what if it was just the head, and she was carrying it around like a baby.

@21 vacc said:

>I really thought this episode put end the Oceani6 debate once and for all. It HAS to be Jack, Kate, Hurley Sayid, Aaron, Sun.

Maybe, maybe not. Was that a grave or a memorial for Jin? Perhaps he gets off the island, but is killed in the process, thus counting as one of the six but not for long.

I believe the previews said something to the effect that "somebody dies" next week - maybe we see how Jin goes - just after rescue.

Here what happened to Michael.

He and Walt made it off the island, back to civilization. Shortly after that, Ben contacted Michael and told him to go apply at this shipyard to be a deck hand on one of Windmore's freighters. It was either do this or be exposed as the son-of-a-B murderer that he is. He got the job and from that point on became a mole.

There is no doubt that Jin was in flashback mode while Sun was in a flashforward. It was a great story line that most people expected to join in the end. It didn't and it appears that it never will.

I still think Jin is alive and well on the island. He gave up his seat on the helicopter for a good reaso