Lost Reviews and News

Tha must have ben one heck of a settlement, for Sun to buy a controlling interest in Paik Industries with it.

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Odometers with both trp meters rarely have tenths in the regular odometer. They had to fudge that in Hurley's Camaro.

this show is stressing me out! thanks for the reviews mac you rock!

THIRD POSTER yeah

Great show tonight... loved all the emotional reunions and confrontations as the Oceanic VI come back to civilization.

Still don't know what Locke and Ben are gonna do in regard the Orchid. Can they really save/move the island?

Cant wait to read Mac's review(but i hear it's great as always), hear the damon/carlton podcast tomorrow, then rewatch the show a second time, with subtitles on. this gives you the complete LOST experience, that is at least until the dvds come out and you have to start all over again with commentary tracks, etc.

Great site Mac. Love the community of smart, odd, interesting people who post hear. I learn lots about the show from every single contribution. Thanks to all.

@mac

>Kate/Aaron...courtside at Lakers games...

So Jack Nicholson's in the next ep?

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@mac

>Faraday gets even more nervous than usual. He knows that the "secondary protocol" has been activated and, judging from his furrowed brow and twitchy demeanor, he knows what that involves. Charlotte, however, doesn't seem to understand what all this secondary business is about, but she gets the message when Danny tells her that they both have to get off the island ... like right now.

Given this and his feelings for Charlotte revealed two ep back, how is it that Faraday didn't get Charlotte in the fist boatload?

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@mac

You left out Scott (or was it Steve?) from th list of the still-dead.

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@mac

>...previously-undocumented Dharma location: the Orchid...

Aside from the odd ComicCon.

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@mac

>Did I miss any? (hatches)

Did the other fake-hatch in the yurt village count? It had a symbol, was there a name?

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@mac

Thanks for a great season of recappin' and don't be a stranger to the random topic in the of-season.

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@mac

>Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Forum? What is this forum place of which he speaks. [hhok]

What's the deal with Sun buying a majority share in her father's corporation? Sure "Paik Industries" is worth a billion or two. But that includes the "SUBSIDIARIES"!

Most 'controlling' corporations are fairly small and are family and close friend traded, and not publicly traded. If Sun got a 20 Mil settlement AND got family and friends to back her, she may have easily gotten the control of the 400,000 shares she needed to take over the "CORE" corp. that controls the very broad "PAIK Industries". The offshoots don't have to be purchased by Sun... if she controls the conglomerate hdqtrs, then most of the subsidiaries will follow her lead. What I want to know is, if her father was one of the two that led to the loss of Jin, who was the second?... Widmore? who..?

I missed the first 20 minutes of the episode (the time slot change has been butchering my enjoyment of the season) but I'm not surprised they go along with the fake wreckage story. How else would Widmore still be living in a penthouse rather than sitting in jail? Ben is too anonymous to the world at large to pin it on him. Are we also left to assume that Sun means Widmore is the other man responsible for Jin's death?

I'm interested to see exactly what Keamy's orders are. He didn't care who was back on the ship because they were going to blow it up, but what are they trying to do at the orchid station? They can't be trying to move it so Widmore can find it... the people he hired already found it.

For a few minutes I thought the plan B was to force Ben to use the orchid to escape the island so he could be dealt with later (they apparently cannot kill him under strict orders, and we know he ends up in Tunisia) but he surrenders himself so that cannot be it.

They can't be trying to destroy the island since they're not planning on leaving and mercenaries don't do suicide missions. Should be interesting to see how it pans out.

First off - Sun, you go girl! That was a great scene when she knocked her father down a peg.

Interesting ep!

Awesome ep! Can't wait for Part 2.

Eek-remember the Desmonition about Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter? What if his reception was a little fuzzy, and it's actually Sun and Aaron who get on the helicopter to safety, before the freighter blows? Double eek-what if Des and Jin are fish food? No way, I refuse to believe my own speculation! And I think Michael is in the casket, so he can't die yet.

Jack is such a jackass. "I promised everybody I'd get them off the island." "I sent Sayid and Des up in the helicopter. I'm responsible." Ugh, I wish Juliet had downsized his ego whilst removing his appendix.

~Love Sawyer looking out for Jack, despite their antagonism. He did it for Kate, I think.
~Sun rocks. Pregnant badass.
~Sayid and Nadia are running a close second to Des and Penny in my awesome love story rankings.
~The whispers at the Reyes residence totally gave me the willies.
~The press conference looked like some of the group cast interviews. Kinda surreal.
~Kate passing off Aaron as her biological child explains away the custody issues. Wonder why the other 5 agreed to that part of the deception?
~If Michael Emerson doesn't win an Emmy this season, there is no justice.
~"Those crackers are 15 years old." Hee!
~Why didn't Ben give Locke any instructions about what to do after he takes the elevator to the Orchid Island Mover basement workshop? Or will Dr. Daddy be down there with to lend a hand?
~The Alpert and Sayid stare-down was hot.
~So moving the island is a last resort, and apparently somewhat risky? I'm guessing it involves a PURPLE SKY! Can anyone say "electromagnetic anomaly"?

@mac:

Regarding missed hatces, what about that "place" where karl was being mentally tortured / being involuntarily projected with images and sounds like "I believe in Jacob"??
Was that a hatch / sattion?

DAMN YOU HD-ABC...! or Rogers� They decided to skip the last 5 minutes of the episode�

Last thing I saw was RA taking Sayid�s gun, then (in Island like fashion), time-skip to Ben�s cup-cake head interfacing with Keamy�s gun� What did I miss in between?

Poor Hurley, why is he still being tormented?! No wonder he goes �crazy�. I got the shivers when I saw the numbers on his car dashboard. Why is the island still messing with him?

Jin isn�t one of the 8 that �survived� the crash, according to their story. One would assume Claire isn�t either. Any ideas who the two could have been? I�m guessing� I actually have no idea... Why should it be any of them?

Sun was great in this episode; did she really mean it that Jin was dead, when she said her dad was one of the two men responsible? Or only dead in the sense of left behind? I think the latter, it seemed to me she pulled the coup to gain Paik resources and go searching for Jin.

I agree with Mac about the device�s function as a fail safe. Personally I initially thought it was an anti-Smokey weapon, but this makes more sense.

So many more questions� Guess we�ll have to wait a couple of weeks�

Oh if someone can do this, can you post a link to stills from Faraday�s notes. I think I caught a glimpse of �time coordinates� scribbled on the Orchid page, amidst some interesting math.

And of course;
Nice one Mac, until next season..

Considering Daniel Dae Kim had his court appearance in Hawaii today for his DUI, let's hope that's not the reason for Jin's 'death' - as the writers did to Ana Lucia, Libby, and Mr. Eko...

@Mac...For me this is a two-part show: One part Lost and one part Mac. I've been reading your blog for years now and the show wouldn't be the same for me without your input. GRAA and don't stop!

I always love reading the comments and I get much from them...

PT

Thanks for your great review Mac! We'll miss your astute observations for the finale.

"...the excuse of Kate giving birth to Aaron seems overly complicated -- and a complicated lie is never a good thing."

Actually, we had a heck of a discussion on this very subject here in this forum!

It was a lie that had to be told but it was really a very simple one: I was pregnant. I don't know, but I don't think all women prisoners are given pregnancy tests. Did she even go to jail in Australia? That's a whole other can of legal worms...extradition, passport. And TPTB have shown us they will play fast & loose with court matters.

Had Kate told the truth, that Aaron was Claire's baby, Australia would take custody of Aaron because he is (through his mother) an Australian citizen. And Australia would not likely award custody of an Australian infant to an American fugitive who is wanted in the US for murder and arson. She might win a court case, but it is highly unlikely. It's more expeditious to say she was 6 months pregnant when she boarded the plane.

What is less credible than her being 6 months pregnant when 815 crashed is that Aaron is freakishly BIG and well developed for a 5 week old infant!

@Mac

so this review marks my final contribution to season 4.

= = = = = = =

Why is this your last contribution? Why aren't you reviewing the season finale?

This is the first time I comment here but always read your reviews. No episode is complete without your comments and witty remarks. I enjoy tremendously your reviews. Best found out there.

Thank you. Hope to hear your reply.

Did anyone else think that one of the reporters knew more than he was letting on? The guy who asked Kate: "What was it like giving birth on the island?" seemed to have a bit of a knowing gleam in his eye. Perhaps he knows about the island and the fact that women can't give birth there, which would make Kate of special interest to him. Also, it seemed interesting to me that the reporters (especially this one guy) referred to it as "THE island." Why not just say the name (which I can't remember right now)?

Eighteenth!

I swear Kate (but not the show) has totally jumped the shark. How in the world did she become an expert tracker? She now has the ability to wave her hand over the ground and know that "These aren't Jack or Sawyer. These are different tracks." I can't suspend my disbelief any longer. Come on!

I love this show.

Woohoo, 19th. I loved the music that accompanied Sayid as he approached the island in the boat. Reminded me of the magnificent seven.

Here's the screen capture of Faraday's notes:

http://tinyurl.com/6qydvr

And who the heck were those no-names that unloaded from the zodiac with Sun, Jin, Aaron and Daniel?

@ t-code-j

Kate has been a tracker since back in the day when her father (not biological) took her out in the wilderness. She's shown her awesome tracking skills before, i.e. following Naomie's true blood trail.

Great episode and GREAT recap-synopsis Mac! Both very enjoyable. So many funny things last night - the �party theme� from Hurley�s parents was up there! (Admittedly, like the former poster said, the whispers were pretty creepy!)

Best moment for me was definitely BAD-ASS SUN nailing pops!

But that last sequence of faces in peril - swish, swish, swish, swish, swish - was really effective. Very tension filled closing montage!

I�m fearing for some of my favorites however. This whole thing seems rather omminous. And how the heck are the writers going to string this out for TWO MORE SEASONS?

(At least the actor playing Richard Alpert has steady work again. Caine sure was a bust!)

Looking forward to reading the blog. Concert season is over - I�m home for the duration. Have a nice vacation Mac.

@ Lee

Correct about Kate being a tracker, they covered that in season 1. Also, Locke has tracking skills.

Questions about Sun and her pregnancy/baby: Does anyone know how far along she is when they are rescued or how long she was on the island before she got pregnant? Depending on the time frame, is she going to have some explaining to do as to who the father is if Jin died in the plane crash.

My favorite bit: When Sawyer tells Jack that Hurley was with Ben, and Jack, sounding every bit like Sawyer, Says

"Son of a BITCH!"

When Ben pulled out the mirror and was "communicating" with someone in the woods - Locke asked "Who are you talking to?" and Ben replied "Who do you think?" I'm sorry i don't know who - and does anyone know what he "said"

On the mirror communication, I assume Ben as talking to Alpert's group?

I'd keep a close eye on the nerd and red-head at all times. I assume the device on the head mercenary's arm would cause the ship to blow up if he died?

Lots of good screentime for Kate, always a plus. ;-)

Seeing the numbers on the car's odometer was fantastic, and very creepy! ;-)

Chris

as for moving the island, remember the screeching, mechanical sound we heard in season 1? Island Moving Apparatus, perhaps?

@Serendipity: Unfortunately, I'm going to be at a conference for work when the finale airs, so there's no way I can fit in a review. It's a bummer, but I'm sure Vacc will do a great job in my absence.

This episode was ridiculously dense. They tried to cram too much into 40 little minutes, and often substituted cheesy dialogue for real communication.

Favorite line: Sun to her daddy, "Now you will respect me."

Worst line: "John, how many times do I have to tell you, I always have a plan." Tell that to Alex, you bug-eyed freak.

While I was thrilled to see that Claire's mom had conquered the coma, I thought that was the lamest possible way to reveal the Jack/Claire connection.

Thanks for the recap Mac. We'll miss your great insights re the season finale. I'm sure Vacc will be great - but there's only 1 MAC.

OK - now let me pry my lips off your backside . . . . (Loud smacking sound).

Last night's ep I thought was great. They have set-up the season finale in a pretty intriguing way. All of the O6 are scattered around different parts of the island. Can't wait to see how they get them all together for the escape.

I now believe that the device on Keamy's arm, that we saw last week, is a heart monitor of some sort. It is connected, via a signal, to the explosives on the freighter. The explosives are attached to a device that is sending out a signal to the device on Keamy's arm. If Keamy's heart stops the device on his arm sends a signal back and the freighter goes BOOM.

I loved Sun taking her father down a peg. He definitely didn't see that coming.

Fav Line:

Hurley eating the saltines. Ben steps past him and says, "You know those are 15 years old." The look on Hurley's face = priceless.

See you next season Mac.

So here I am, posting for the first time after years of lurking. Mac, I used to read your reviews to fill in the gaps in the show - now I watch the show so I can enjoy your review!

Anyway - two nagging questions after last night's episode. First - I've been wondering since last week - with new mother Claire gone missing, how are they going to feed Aaron? If he's only 5 weeks old, she must have been nursing him - but I don't remember seeing any Other or Dharma-issue baby bottles or formula (why would there be? None of the Other pregnancies came to term).

...which leads to question #2 - if Kate had given birth 5 weeks ago on an uninhabited island, she would still be nursing that baby, and we can pretty well assume she's not. You'd think somebody might notice / wonder about that.

...and another thing. Wasn't Claire's mother in a coma just before Claire left to take her as-yet-unborn baby to LA? I had the impression that Mom was in a permanent vegetative state. Apparently she snapped back, and looked pretty good for somebody who had been in a horrific accident only 6 months previously, living on a respirator and feeding tube.

I suspect that little Aaron will play a big part in the next two seasons. Remember Hurley's "off hand" comment (is anything off hand on this show?) when Locke and Sawyer were playing Risk a couple of weeks back - "Australia's the key to the whole thing" -?

Anybody?

2nd Fav line:

Female Reporter: "For being stranded on an island for 100 days you all look pretty healthy."

Hurley: "Was that directed at me dude?"

>> "as for moving the island, remember the screeching, mechanical sound we heard in season 1? Island Moving Apparatus, perhaps?"

GREAT point! I had forgotten about that. So many loose ends. I was wondering when we would get back to the numbers.

As far as your list of the DHARMA stations: what about the Temple? It has its own logo: http://tinyurl.com/65mar2

Dude! Cheech is Hurley's Dad......that
cracks me up!

great show last night

>> "Dude! Cheech is Hurley's Dad."

And not looking good, he looked embalmed imho. ;-)

That whole thing with Sun buying up a controlling interest in her dad's corporation seemed to come from completely out of the blue. Don't get why they really needed to put that into the episode. probably yet another question to be answered later.

So the remaining Others were waiting up in the mountains for Ben and then suddenly down in the wilderness waiting for Kate and Sawyer?

Mac, love the review as always. You left out the numbers showing up on Hurley's car (although you did mention him getting in touch with his inner crazy-person). A gallon of absinthe for us all!

So much for all that were calling Jack an idiot for heading towards the signal. Turns out Lapidius actually wanted him to do that.

I officially think Faraday is the slimiest character on the show after Ben. He apparently knows everything about everything that is going on, seemingly as much as Ben from his brief revealing moments of conversation. Yet he plays this sniveling meek little person in front of the crowds so nobody bothers him. Kind of like what Ben did when we first saw him on this show, without the manipulative side of course.

Best Mac line: "...activating Ben's buggy-eye G-spot"

Apparently two posts got removed because those that declared "eighteenth" and "nineteenth" are actually sixteenth and seventeenth.

Anyone else wondering how they're going to tie up what happened to Claire? Is she alive or dead? Can the island just "take" someone like that when they haven't done a thing (from what I can see) to justify it?

I agree that the whole "this is my baby, I gave birth to him" story from Kate about Aaron, while it obviously works out fine because we see her still with Aaron years later, was incredibly hokey and should have been dealt with better.

How is Ben going to overpower the mercenaries senseless without his Jedi beat-down stick? :) Maybe Hurley can get his Other van and knock them all down!

If the island really does physically move, it had better be over a shark so we can call that moment what it is. If it quacks like a duck...

I anxiously await the season finale, but I have to say it's with a mix of anticipation and dread. I want to enjoy this show and continue to enjoy it for the next two seasons, but they've kind of boxed a number of things into a corner that I don't see how they're going to get out of them without some "oh no they DIDN'T" kinds of moments. I'm hoping to be as amazingly pleased and surprised as I was with last season's finale (AWESOME!), but I am a little worried.

Wow, reading my post over again that was quite an overall negative post. Sorry, folks if I brought anyone down. I don't take back any of it, I think the issues I brought up needed to be said, but it certainly wasn't mister cheerful.

I truly do enjoy the show and especially all of you here. Insightful and intelligent only scratches the surface of the people the post in "Mac's world", and we're all the better for it. Hope all take my previous post in the best light.

@6 Mike speculated:

>How else would Widmore still be living in a penthouse rather than sitting in jail?

What�s the exact UK crime for sinking an airplane in international waters filled with 234 bodies taken from a graveyard in Thailand?

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@9 Stilianos asked:

>Regarding missed hatches, what about that "place" where karl was being mentally tortured / being involuntarily projected with images and sounds like "I believe in Jacob"??

That was part of the Hydra station on the little island off the coast.

My long awaited [Well, maybe someone out there was awaiting it] review of "The Invention of Morel" is now posted in the Random Topics '08 area. Click my name to be taken there.

btw,

What is the damon/carlton podcast RONB mentions??

Am I the only one who still wants to know....WHERE ARE THE KIDS? After the Others gave Walt back, they dropped the whole subject of the Tailie kids that were taken, and never saw the lady(forgot her name) that was "taking care" of them.
The fact that the writers would just dispose of such a previously huge subjuect makes me think that there are other "big issues" that mean nothing and are just meant to distract us for a while.... any thoughts?

Mac, long time lurker, but you'll be missed in 2 weeks. You will come by and share your thoughts in the comments, right?

I keep trying to come up with a better story for Aaron. He can't be Claire's, because Kate feels obligated to take care of him. Do you think it's a calculated move to help Kate in her trial?

I was sure that Jin would be one of the extra two Oceanic survivors, just for the timing of Sun's pregnancy. More than wondering about who those two are, I really want to know WHY the story requires two more people.

@Mister_Grimm:
That's exactly what I thought when I saw the explosives, that it has some sort of heart monitor linked to Keamy. My guess is that he will die and the freighter will explode, but who gets killed? I have the impression that Jin is going to be one of them :(

@ Post 5. MorBid0

Don�t waste valuable brain cells trying to defend the cheesy soap opera clich� of �I secretly took over your company�. In the real world, it is simply impossible to secretly take control of a corporation, whether it is large or small, publicly traded or closely held, or a holding company or operating company. The scene of Sun�s confrontation of her dad was hokey Hollywood melodrama at its lamest.

I found it difficult to be engaged by this episode. It had the same infirmity as the last three Star Wars movies: you can�t really be surprised or thrown by plot twists when you know how the story must end. There�s no cliffhanger suspense, for example, in Jack�s bleeding wound or in Hurley being with Ben and Sawyer at the Orchid, since we�ve already seen them get off the island. I don�t find the process of moving them from their present circumstance to the hold of that military transport nearly as interesting as the writers seem to. I can�t bring myself to care much about the contents of another mysterious hatch, when the future plotline conflict has already been revealed to go well beyond small island mysteries such as those hatches. There�s a weird discontinuity in watching things happen at breakneck speed while being impatient for things to happen.

For me, the flash-forwards have passed from interesting and novel new twist to the storytelling to a gigantic string of buzz-killing spoilers. A lot of the show made me fell like I was watching a rerun. I knew Hurley was going to greet his restored car the moment that Cheech told him he wanted to show him his present. I knew that Nadiya was the one who wanted to see Sayid before they said it. I knew that Jack was going to find out Claire was his sister the moment that conversation started. The only one of those scenes where the acting worked well enough to make me care was the reaction shot we got from Naveen Andrews.

>@41 dreeda99 enquired:

>After the Others gave Walt back, they dropped the whole subject of the Tailie kids that were taken, and never saw the lady(forgot her name) that was "taking care" of them.

We saw them touring the cages and throwing peanuts to Jack with Cindy and her scarf in season 3. Maybe we can assume they're at the Temple with the other Others.

Sorry if someone has said this,i been lost 4 awhile, but does anyone think Alpert is Lock's dad. at the hospital the nurse asks john's mom if alpert was the father,i think the mom knew he was but could not say so ,if she had they would not have been able to put john up for adoption.

Just to clarify re: the finale -- I won't be writing the recap, but I'll certainly be around and I plan to participate through the comments. (I'll also check in regularly in the long wait between the finale and season 5 ... it's not like I'm scheduling a six-month stay on the balmy shores of Membata).

Isn't Membata the name of Wilt Chamberlain in Conan the Destroyer? Sweet!!!

Ronny B,

That water theme plays anytime they're on the water. I believe it was introduced with the raft and reprised when Sun and Jin sailed around to the other side of the island and saw the foot. I like it, too. Very energetic and driven.

Cecil Rose,

My guess is that the crime would be 234 counts of defacing a corpse.

dreeda99,

I've been wondering about those kids and the Australian flight attendant, too. Are they at the Temple?

I wonder what was in the Jesus statue ... Maybe some of Charlie's heroin?

after last night's ep I'm starting to believe in the whole dobbelganger/cloning theory again. Off the island, everyone seemed so robotic - yes? Maybe they are "incomplete" because they have been "split."

Did anyone see/read "The Prestige?" -- that is the effect I'm talking about. Maybe that is the secret that they are bearing and hence, what they agreed to "go through" in order to get back home.

Regardless, it will be interesting, to say the least, to learn how the O6 end up as the only 6 that return/"survive." Since right now they are scatterd all over the place: Jack in the jungle with Sawyer; Sun and Arron and Jin on the freighter; Kate and Sayid captured by the Hostiles and Hurley outside the Orchid with Locke.

Me thinks it is gonna be one wild ride!!! And I can't wait.

Haven't read all the comments yet, about to wade through them now.

"After watching all this transpire, I'm surprised Jack didn't immediately swallow a gallon of absinthe and sprout inch-long beard hair." Brilliant, Mac.

My fave line?--
After Ben unearths the old box and its contents, Locke hands the crackers over to Hurley, who immediately snaps into one. The best line is Ben to Hurley, with a mix of (probably) disgust and awe:
"You know, those are 15 years old."

I love Hurley.

OK- to the comments!

xo
-chopkins

@44 Deep Cover

I hear exactly what you are saying. I have discussed this with friends who watch the show as well. My point has been, "What exactly is *current* on the show?" Is it the future flashes? As you say, there is a safety net now for much of what we see on the island, since we know certain people will leave.

Dozens of guns pointed at Sayid and Kate? Ho-hum. They can't die. Jack bleeding out? No, he can't. What we now think of as current events has more or less become THE PAST. Weird, isn't it?

I think the most "current" moment would have to be Jack's cry of "We have to go back!" I think that is the furthest forward flash, but it's possible another flash could be further, and we just don't know yet from the context.

Fave Line last night: (Sawyer) "Wait up, you don't get to die alone, you know." Nice way to sneak part of an episode title in. (Live Together, Die Alone, as I recall)

Can't wait to see what happens with the Orchid finally!!

The big questions in my mind are:

1. Who was Ben communicating with using the mirror and what was he saying?
A. Alpert -- Can I borrow your skin cream? My face has taken quite a beating lately.
B. Jacob -- We're out of saltines.
C. Vincent -- I'm having a rough day.

2. Who set the explosives on the freighter and why? When they explode, will we have another Acme moment whereby the freighter remains intact but the ocean around it collapses?

3. Will we finally see the Orchid video and confirm that it's canon? If so, can we refer to season 4 as wabbit season?

4. Who are the 2 "survivors" who didn't make it? Will Richard Hatch be one of them?

5. Will Daniel (Action Jackson) Farrady become next season's Ben and assume a bigger role on the show?

As Sun approaches her father, in his office, Mr. Paik is discussing details of funds transfers from 5 different banks. He has probably just been informed that he has lost controlling interest in the company. And the 5 different bank accounts, could they belong to Sun, Hurley, Kate, Jack, and Sayid? Sorry if this has been discussed already, havent' read the recap yet.

Now we know why flying is so expensive. They can hand out reimbursemnt packages that will help you buy multi-billion dollar corporations. Just think how much Oceanic is worth!

@Clementine: There is a big red button labelled "Press Here To Move The Island" (Austin Powers-style)Even Locke can get that!

I was thinking the 2nd person responsible for jin's death (other than Mr Paik) was Jack. Weird, cold glances betwixt them.

also thought ben was communicating wit jacob. maybe not.

i'm so over kate.

Few thoughts

1. re: 16. Posted by: t-code-j
I totally agree, I even said what??? Kate knows not only where they went but who they are and are not how sweaty they were, whether or not they went ate fish or leaves, what is she a dog now.. sniffing their scents? I know they covered her tracking skills but come on.

2. Now that I think of it, the past episodes were telling us Jack had to find out about Claire AFTER they get back. Cuz by then they have already lied and can't take it back. I love the Australian way "I know your at your Dads' funeral but let me burden you with this one final twist in your gut" (your dads' infidelity, a long lost sister also died feet away from you.)

3.I was hoping Ben would get island medieval on their asses and not just give up.

4.What happens to Juliet ! Dangit

5.Didnt Lapidus say the mercs went to the Orchid to wait for Ben to apprehend him? So the mercs went to get Ben, cuz they (Widmore) knew that would be the last step in the 'save the island' protocol? The mercs looked like they were waiting for something, not 'doing' something.
So seems like Widmore made sure they stopped him from doing so (save the island) by waiting for him there, BUT he doesn�t know about the Locke factor.

6. I guess the whole lie about Kate/Aaron could work I mean, what would they say? 'I know you have just been thru a horrific traumatic event and the fact that you are alive is an insane miracle but we are going to call bullsh** on your baby.'

7. I don�t think Jin is dead, it seems to me Sun was in shock but was very composed for losing her spouse days before. I think it was planned like that, to be ambiguous yet it seemed to me the difficult part was lying about him dieing at all, and not how.

8. I HATE that I am addicted to this show now

This episode was too surreal. The post-island story line was too forced.

First, the US coast guard would not ferry rescued passengers from Indonesia. Oceanic would have chartered a plane or first class passage on another carrier.

Second, the airport reunions were too staged, especially the Sayid-Nadia moment.

Third, why would you have a second public memorial service for Christian Shepard? Claire's mother was in a terminal coma so her bright appearance at the church made no real sense. How would she even know about it (if she was alive and well?) It is more probable that Claire's mother died when Christian's payment of her medical bills stopped.

Fourth, international companies do not have the same investment reporting rules of US publicly traded companies; however, more foreign companies are tightly controlled through family holdings or intertwined bank-financial companies. The average large Korean industrial company has a market cap of $10-50 billion. It is impossible for Sun to have used her settlement to buying a controlling interest in such a company. Further, since the O6 are part of a conspiracy, they are probably being blackmailed with their lives by the power(s) that let them leave the island. Powerful people don't waste their capital on settlements.

Fifth, the Hurley surprise party made little sense. It was used to convey the all the O6 having perfect, happy upper middle class lives. Except for Hurley's to freak out in the camaro -- the Numbers may be his subconscious telling him that this is not real, this is wrong, danger, don't fall for the bait.

As Hurley said last week, the post-island events are too perfect to be real; that it would be a heavenly dream for those involved if it was true.

The one line that caught my attention was "Jesus Christ is not a weapon." As a follow-up on my comments last week, Milton and Dante's writings of Satan battling God for heaven indeed has the Son of God as the key weapon that defeated Satan's army and banished the rebellious angels to hell. So in the battle of good versus evil, Jesus was a weapon.

Sawyer's "Genghis" reference to Miles was pure Sawyer.

My theory as how the O6 get back together and are rescued:

RA takes Kate and Sayid and meet up with Hurley/Locke/Ben at the Orchid. (Ben had signaled the Others to meet there.) A battle ensues.

Jack/Sawyer/Lapidus get the copter ready and then Jack/Sawyer head to the Orchid to join the first annual Move the Island, Orchid Reunion tour.

As soon as it is revealed that they are moving the island, Hurley, Jack, Kate and Sayid return to the copter(ever notice how fast friends scatter when you mention you're moving?) While Locke and Sawyer choose to stay to do the dirty work.

The copter takes off, the island moves (messing up travel plans), Ben is shot in the arm, and just as he is about to be shot execution style (but face up) he uses his top secret Orchid spider powers to jump to Tunisia.

Meanwhile Keamy is killed (and there is much rejoicing), thereby setting off the explosives on the freighter. The water is teaming with debris among which is the Zodiac, Sun and Aaron.

The copter arrives at the scene of the wreckage out of gas because of excessive flying while trying to follow coordinates that are messed up due to the island move.

They ditch the copter for the zodiac and the O6 are rescued in the dingy.

good morning to all,

i thought this episode was just ok but i enjoyed it none the less.

i think charlette and ole' danny boy will be the two survivors that were lost at sea. dont know why, i just do.

@davidrh
i liked the show CANE and was very disappointed that it got cancelled. apparently moonlight is being cancelles also. oh well :(

peace&love to all

Could they be trying to move the Island in time rather than location?

The on-island events gave me the feeling of a dark version of It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World. You have groups running around looking for stuff and finding themselves in deeper trouble. The 815ers arrive at the freighter and find it rigged with a ton of explosives? (And when does the explosives read C-4 EXPLOSIVES! with an ! mark??) The crazy Three Amigos arrive near the Orchid station, and Ben takes out the mirror to signal who? Patchy? While Hurley eats old crackers (crackers a reference to nuts?) And why would Ben tell Locke what to do when Ben could do the work himself instead of surrendering? If Ben wouldn't give himself up to save Alex, why now? Sayid and Kate, who were going to rescue Sawyer and Jack, now being captured by Alpert, who was supposed to be at the temple, but are now probably following the helicopter to rescue Ben, but which leads them toward Frank, who is going to rescue all of them? See how maddening this is?

@44 Deep Cover: I believe that this is why we 'overheard' the conversation before Sun entered about the money coming from 5 different banks. Several smaller entities bought up Paik stock and before they realized what was happening. I realize that it is simplistic to think all of your buddies could secretly buy Microsoft stock and nobody would notice but, as you say, it is Hollywood.

Widmore Crimes: theft, destruction of private property, desecration of a corpse (234 counts apiece)

@61: "Since right now they are scatterd all over the place: Jack in the jungle with Sawyer; Sun and Arron and Jin on the freighter; Kate and Sayid captured by the Hostiles and Hurley outside the Orchid with Locke."

Well, all but Sun and Aaron could meet at the Orchid. Hurley's already there, Jack is going there for Hurley, and Kate and Sayid are presumably being marched there by Alpert (with lots of guns!) to rescue Ben. Then they return to Frank's helicopter and fly to the ship where they pick up Sun. The question then would be - if Sun fits on later, why not Sawyer on the first trip? So that means Frank's helicopter isn't their final transport away.

By the way, I will be *very* disappointed if the freighter actually explodes.

It's minor point, but it keeps coming up so....

Sun's pregnancy doesn't need an explanation for it's timing. She and Jin could have done the deed the night before the plane took off.

The world doesn't know Jin had slow swimmers. Even if the world did know, some people who are unable to conceive do, against all odds, get pregnant.

? 60. Posted by: bcre8ve

LOL on the Sawyer reference to Miles as "Ghengis"-caught it on the rewatch.

So many holes in the 06 stories you almost think it's intentional. Were the 06 all sitting side by side on the plane so they were the only ones able to quickly get out of the blown hatch? Oceanic obviously would still have the seating assignments.

Even with the episode shortcomings, can't wait the 2 hour finale.

@54/Scooby-Dude Well played [8^)

@59/welh "It is more probable that Claire's mother died when Christian's payment of her medical bills stopped."

Are you kidding? Once the sugar daddy was gone, the hospital had to do something to get her out of there. etting her die would have taken too long. : P

DOCTOR: Why are you giving me this patient's chart? She's been in a comma for months.
NURSE: There's been a dramatic change in her case?
DOCTOR: What? She's recoverd?
NURSE: No, her sugar daddy died and we need the bed.
DOCTOR: Oh, I'll get right on it.

108 day's later, she's crashing funerals, neglecting grandkids, and dropping bombs on newly found step sons.

OK, so I've gotten through all the comments. It beats working. I dont have any cracked out theories after this episode, but my reactions to some of the comments:

@ 5 Morbid0 (and everyone else who commented on this): the scond person responsible for Jin's death, my guesses are either Ben (obv.) or Michael.

@10 Apollo: Good point about why have two other "extra" survivors who died on the island and weren't rescued. It really coudl be anyone. WHy have two other survivors though? Does it make the O6 story more believable somehow??

@ 26 Dharma Anne: The mechanical island noises. Isnt there also a weird mechanical noise whenever smokey comes out to do his thang? A weird clanking like a chain is being pulled or something... right?

@ 30 occam: good point about the non-nursing kate. Obviously nobody cathces on though, since we see them (presumably) years later, seemingly no worse for the wear...

@60 becre8ve: good theory, makes sense. But what happens to Lapidus? Unless Sayid can fly the copter???

@36 lostedit (and others with similar gripes): Agreed. This show is dangerously close to jumping the shark. I cant tell if it's brilliant, or just f*&$ing with us or what. I agree with those who've said there is no real suspense since the flash-forwards, since we know ultimately who "lives." Jacks stitches, ho-hum... etc etc. It's taken a lot of the anxious feelings I used to get about this show away. For me, yes I do want to know HOW the O6 get off, for sotrytelling purposes, but its not as important as the fact that they DO get off, which we already know. If that makes any sense? Unless the flash forwards arent real or something, or people are cloned or whatever, but if thats the case, well... I can only suspend disbelief and let myself be taken so far. That might be the last straw. I want some GD answers from this show, you know??

All that being said, dammit, I do love to hate this $hit sometimes, and I HAVE to tune in every week, listen to the podcasts, read these blogs instead of work etc etc etc. So, theyre doing somethign right, and they know it. I just REALLY hope we're not all let down at the end. Whatever the eff dharma is and the whole space-time stuff they got goin' on, it better be totally TOTALLY sweet.

Anyways, back to last night's episode-- agreed with those who posted that Sun taking over Paik was for two reasons: to take daddy down, and to use the considerable resources to find the island again. Also liked those that posited all 6 of the O6 were in on the deal. Very interesting...

K, thats what I got. I wasnt terribly impressed with this episode. I think this season reached its peak with The Constant and has been coasting/going downhill a bit since then. I'm really looking forward to the 2-hour finale to restore my faith a bit.

Oh who am I kiding, theyve easily already got me for the next two seasons, and damned if they dont know it.

Good luck in a couple weeks Vacc. Got some big shoes to fill...

xo
-chopkins

... and did the scene with the view from inside the Coast Guard transport (as the cargo bay opened) remind anybody of the climatic scene from "Close Encounters"?

As I've suspected, the O6 are all aliens.

Interesting observations from other blogs (yes, I read others but my heart belongs to Mac and Mac alone!)

* in FF scenes, Hurley's T-shirt bears the "Ace of Spades" -- commonly known as the death card or the card of war.

* Operation Greenhouse was the code name for America's A-bomb testing program in the 1950s... in the south pacific.

* Could the orchid time machine = the key to eternal life?

* Was Sun implying to her dad that she knew he deliberatly conspired to kill them (we don't know if he did) because he knew the plane was going to crash?

Boy, it is going to be a LONG, SLOW 8 months. Has ABC announced a date yet for the 09 season premier? Please let it at least be early January....instead of late Jan. or, heaven forbid, early Feb!

Wilt played Bombataa

@69/chopkins - I think you and the other posters that followed my last post have said pretty concisely what I was trying to say but couldn't put exactly into words at the time. That I so want to LOVE the season finale for revitalizing a storyline that looks more and more like a recap that fills in all of the empty spaces while also just showing us things we already know or things we know won't go badly because we know the characters' futures.

On the Sun issue, if in fact the O5 (forget Aaron for a moment) in fact put their money together to buy Sun's father's business and use it for their own purposes (against Widmore, anyone?) then I can see a future for this new storyline thread. The whole vengance thing, though, at first glance seemed to come out of relatively nowhere with no basis other than to find some intrigue/activity in Sun's post-island life. I'd like to see something come of this story thread, otherwise it just doesn't make sense why they did it.

Any ideas why the heading is 305 going in both directions to and from the island (not to mentioned changed from 325 I thought).... Any pilot knows if you came in on 305 and you want to get back you take 125... For some reason I can completely wrap my head around time travel from the island to the outside world but heading northwest to leave the island, and northwest to get back to the island completely confounds me.

More thoughts on the whole "using Paik Enterprises to fight Widmore/find the island again" theory(s):

If theyre using it to fight Widmore etc., well, it sure doesnt seem like they've made much progress or even consider it al that much from some of the other future-flashes we've seen. We know the flashes go at least a few yrs forward (grown Aaron, on-the-edge Jack etc.), and instead of being warriors or even cool corporate exec types, well, the O6ers are either crazy (Hurley, Jack) or living "normal" suburban lives (Kate, Aaron). We dont know what Sun is up to years in the future, presumably raising her kid and learning that greed is good...

The only one really taking on Widmore is Sayid, and thats because Ben forces him to.

Anyways, thinking about this more makes me really start to love/hate the future flashes. They suck because they reveal glimpses of what already happen, so theres no suspense in the "here and now."

But they have the potential to be GREAT, if only the writers would just, please please PLEASE use them to answer some of the WHY and WHAT questiosn we all have... why are widmore and Ben such enemies? What is Dharma? Why does the island have these weird powers etc...

The shows been going on for 4 seasons now, Itsl more than halfway done, and we still have NO answers. It's so frustrating, man. But, there is still a lot of room for these questions to be answered, and I REALLY hope they are, and satisfactorily, or else this all would have been such a waste of time...

Sigh.

Have I lost faith like Locke?? If so, writers, PLEASE send me an Ecko to bring me back!!

xo
-chopkins

I'm at work now, and I haven't had a chance to do more than skim some of the comments, so I apologize if I'm repeating what's already been said, but according to the O6 cover story, wouldn't three people have died on the island, and not two? 8 people were floating in the water, including a pregnant Kate. They made it to the island, 3 died at some point, leaving 5, and then Aaron was born, giving us the Oceanic 6 (not necessarily in that order).

@76: Good point!! Love to hear someone explain THAT...!?!?!?!

xo
-chopkins

Couple of things...

1. Does "the Temple" count as a station? Didn't see that on the list.

2. Finale starts at 9 pm on the 29th, not 10 pm as it is listed at the bottom.

So I haven't read anything yet... but I must say... the episode was AMAZING.

This was an episode of answers. Now I'm wondering how amazing part 2 will be. AH.

Okay, I need to read now.

? 62. Posted by: Pete at May 16, 2008 11:11 AM:

"Could they be trying to move the Island in time rather than location?"

Hey Pete i was thinking the same thing. Makes a lot more sense then physically moving it. And I love your timing: 11:11

@76: Couldn't one have died in the water before reaching the island?

@ 5 Morbid0 (and everyone else who commented on this): the scond person responsible for Jin's death, my guesses are either Ben (obv.) or Michael.

Maybe Sun's other Person is Jack, or Locke, whoever happens to kill Keamy which will set off the freighter explosives because that is probably what will kill Jin,
if he's even dead,
if you can even die on this island,
if its even an island,
if non-islands have the power to save or kill people,
if the islanders are even the dead ones, maybe the O/06 are the dead ones, if there even is an oceanic 06.. AHHH!!! Stop me !!

A couple of quick thoughts.

1) like someone above, I've been wondering if by "moving the island" they are talking about time rather than location.

2) was it a continuity error or was there another person (who looked a lot like goodspeed) on the boat next to jin. we saw him next to jin as sun got off but when jin got off right after her, he wasn't there.

3) are widmore and paik allies or enemies?

4) ben wasn't really raised by his parents, Locke wasn't raised by his parents, Walt wasn't raised by his parents, Aaron isn't being raised by his parents. connection?

5) why was the co-pilot so freaked out about the cargo? come to think of it, would that plane really make a trip that far?

@49 DB speculated:

>Cecil Rose,
>My guess is that the crime would be 234 counts of defacing a corpse.

And this, which took place in Thailand, is under UK jurisdiction a crime, how?

<><><><><><><><>

@61 tiffani intuited:

>i think charlette and ole' danny boy will be the two survivors that were lost at sea. dont know why, i just do.

But they weren�t on 815.

>peace&love to all

Are you with Dharma?

<><><><><><><><>

@63 welh cinematized:

>The on-island events gave me the feeling of a dark version of It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World.

So... The Orchid would be the big �W�?

And Jacob is Spencer Tracy?
Or is he Jimmy Durante?

>The crazy Three Amigos arrive near the Orchid station...

Will Randy Newman be the singing bush again?
Can I be the invisible swordsman?

<><><><><><><><>

64 PiecesofArzt gumshoed:

>Widmore Crimes: theft, destruction of private property, desecration of a corpse (234 counts apiece)

None of them occurring in Great Britain. Who arrests him and how?

<><><><><><><><>

@68 bcre8ve geneotyped:

>108 day's later, she's [Clair�s mom] crashing funerals, neglecting grandkids, and dropping bombs on newly found step sons.

Can�t be a step-mom if never married to dad. Is there a word of �mother of your half-sister�?

<><><><><><><><>

@69 chopkins caterwauled:

>Agreed. This show is dangerously close to jumping the shark. I cant tell if it's brilliant, or just f*&$ing with us or what. I agree with those who've said there is no real suspense since the flash-forwards, since we know ultimately who "lives."

I think they�ve created plenty of suspense, leaving us wondering:

1) What happens to the rest of the Losties, not to mention Others and Freighties we�ve come to care about?

2) Why do the O6 have to lie?

3) How does the island appear to keep interacting with their off-island lives? and

4) What do they end up doing about it?

<><><><><><><><>

@70 dharma boy Roswelled:

>... and did the scene with the view from inside the Coast Guard transport (as the cargo bay opened) remind anybody of the climatic scene from "Close Encounters"?

The opening of the C-130 cargo ramp was a little bogus. They�ve got a nice passenger door right behind the cockpit, complete with steps.

@62/Pete "Could they be trying to move the Island in time rather than location?"

That would certainly explain why the show is still on ABC next week but starts at at 9 pm instead of the regular 10 pm (As pointed out by DaveVT @78.)

[8^)

Nagging question for the boaters out there:

The freighter pilot did not want to move the ship because the depth finder was being scrambled by a transmission (which is getting to be a convenient excuse). How can a sonar signal underwater get jammed from a transmission above water on the ship?

Also, is not the freighter anchored many miles from the island. Aren't reefs confined to a few hundred yards off shore of an island?

Ugh... School sucks. Class is almost over. I won't be able to finish =[

Then I'll have to catch up on a BAGILLION posts. Whatever, I love it.

So what are we going to do with our lives after the finale??? I know we're going to continue analyzing it... but I doubt many people are going to check this every day. =[

I'll miss all of you.

Sorry - dunmb question, whats 'jumping the shark?"

I'm still anxious to see how Mr. Paik will influence all of this.

I'm not sure if anyone said this already... but...

Sun didn't seem happy to see her parents.

If Paik is "responsible" for Jin's death, does that mean that it's because they were trying to "escape" him, or because he had something to do with the crash.

Sorry for the bad English. No time to edit!

This is a frivolous post that exists only to make ilovebenjaminlinusxx have to read a BAGILLION + 1 posts instead of the BAGILLION she referenced in post #87.

Sigh...

After watching last night's epi and reading all of your posts, I've come to realize...it's going to be a LONG 2 weeks.

:(

And that double post wasnt suppose to happen! Sorry! I got the IE error the first time!

Shame on me...pls lock me up with Sawyer in the bear cage.

@85 bcre8ve mistook:

@62/Pete "Could they be trying to move the Island in time rather than location?"

That would certainly explain why the show is still on ABC next week but starts at at 9 pm instead of the regular 10 pm (As pointed out by DaveVT @78.)

Next week the entire two hours is taken up by the Grey�s Anatomy finale. Lost�s two-parter finale will be ion TWO weeks at 9 PM (8 Central) - May 29.
<><><><><><><><>

Speaking of DaveVT @78,

Dave, are you:

1) From Vermont?
2) Attending Virginia Tech?
4) Neither?

(VT class of �68 and coming up on my 40th reunion here)

<><><><><><><><>

@87 ilovebenjaminlinusxx bemoaned:

>So what are we going to do with our lives after the finale??? I know we're going to continue analyzing it... but I doubt many people are going to check this every day. =[

>I'll miss all of you.

So don�t leave. Last year we managed to keep up sustained conversations, both about Lost and other things, in the /r/a/n/s/o/m/ random topic area.

<><><><><><><><>

@88 JaneSweetz quizzed:

Sorry - dumb question, what�s �jumping the shark?"

Not dumb at all. It refers to an episode of �Happy Days� when Fonzie, water-skiing complete with leather jacket, jumped over a shark. Fans marked it as the beginning of the end of the decent �Happy Days� scripts.

By extension nowadays it refers to the episode that marks the beginning of a series� decline. I personally think the writer/producers of �Lost�, like J. Michael Straczynski�s earlier example with Babylon 5, will manage to avoid any �shark-jumping� by establishing early on an end to the series and it�s story arc.

93/keluha

That's OK. It gives us more to read during the hiatus.

******MILD SPOILER **************

Here is ABC's official summary of next week, complete with who is guest starring, which is very interesting. Folks we haven't seen in a while inclue WALT, MICHAEL'S MOM, DR. CANDLE and PENNY. Oh, and who the heck is HENRIK?

"The face-off between the survivors and the freighter people continues, and the Oceanic Six find themselves closer to rescue. Guest starring are Jeremy Davies as Daniel Faraday, Ken Leung as Miles Straume, Rebecca Mader as Charlotte Lewis, Jeff Fahey as Frank Lapidus, L. Scott Caldwell as Rose, Malcolm David Kelley as Walt, Nestor Carbonell as Richard Alpert, John Terry as Christian Shephard, Sonya Walger as Penelope "Penny" Widmore, Alan Dale as Charles Widmore, Kevin Durand as Keamy, Francois Chau as Dr. Marvin Candle, Anthony Azizi as Omar, Alex Petrovitch as Henrik and Starletta DuPois as Michael's mom." Source: ABC

I'm Virginia Tech class of '04. LOST and VT sports are my two passions. :)

@94: I'm Virginia Tech class of '04. LOST and VT sports are my two passions. :)

GRAA, Mac. Will miss you next time, but have faith in vacc to step up.

For me, the most disturbing thing about Kate's "pregnancy" (thus Claire's) is why a plane crash wouldn't cause a miscarriage!

My favorite line, when everyone is looking at the tracking phone: Sun says, "Can't we just call??" Duh.

I haven't done the math, but the press conference mentions day 103 and day 108. Does that fit with "our" already-established timeline?

Does the "photo by a local fisherman" reveal anything?

Why don't the reporters ask who the other 2 survivors were??

What's up with the box that Ben dug up? A mirror, binocs and .... saltines?

As NOTLOST posted: who the heck WERE all those other no-names on the beach? And why take a couple of them on the first wave to the freighter??

Also, the Zodiac seems capable of zipping back and forth with no problem "time-wise".

The writers have claimed that the numbers aren't really that significant (or something like that), but they keep showing up rather prominently.

Another favorite line: Sawyer to Jack, "Did you cut yourself shaving?"

Was Hurley carrying a bag from Mr. Cluck's Chicken Shack?? I couldn't read the entire logo.

Re: Hurley's party. First the coconut. Then the statue. Then the island theme. The only thing missing: Smokey. (Maybe he was in the BBQ grill.)

Grammar correction to Locke when he asks Ben about the person on the other end of the mirror signal: It's "With whom", John, not "With who".

Do you think Sun finds out that Paik Industries is connected to Widmore and that's the REAL reason for her investment?

As always, more q's than a's. And while this show was not as engaging as other eps, I'm still hooked and love it.

It's gonna be a looooooonnnnggg two weeks. Thanks, Mac, for giving us a place to go during that time. We're LOST with you, but we'd be lost without you!

More on jumping the shark:

You can see a clip of the actual Fonzie shark-hump here:

http://tinyurl.com/f66b7

You can see a list of shows and when they jumped the shark here:

http://tinyurl.com/2somny

And you can see some fans opinion on Lost and shark-jumping here:

http://tinyurl.com/5x32eg

(The vote is about 2-1 �Never Jumped�)

Whoops....

Make that "Fonzie shark-jump"

h/j next to each other on the keyboard, don't you know.

I tend to agree with the weakness of Sun buying a controlling share in Daddy's company. Daddy is such a gangster, it's a bit surprising that it is even publicly traded. And no matter how big the settlement was, it surely wasn't enough to buy a controlling interest. She was still pregnant in that scene, so it wasn't long after "rescue" Could Hurley's unwanted fortune helped? Though I doubt if Hurley would have wanted to do damage to Sun with his misfortunate fortune. Could there be a Widmore connection here?

I am hoping the writers know what they are doing and that they have a staff who worries only about continuity.

Granted, there is some element of interest in how these widely separated people come together to be rescued, but the greater mystery is how someone, probably Widmore, got them all to go along with the big lie. It couldn't be money as Hurley has more than enough and the rest don't seem to be the venal sort. More likely is the possible threat to those who survived or whom the six think survived after their departure. How much time did they have for the persuasion. Enough to buy Sayid and Jack matching suits?

"Sun says Jin died when the plane crashed."

Didn't Sun say that Jin did survive the plane crash?

Did anyone else notice this in the first scene: when looking out of the front windshield of the military plane, you get the feeling that the plane is moving in reverse because the clouds are getting smaller and smaller, even though the plane must be moving forward...watch it again and let me know what you think.

Long time reader first post.

@ Mister grimm

@ DRivera 43

Remember last week when the Captain was pointing a gun at Keamy after he kill the Doctor. Keamy told the captain, you can't kill me cause I have this, (pointing to the device on his arm) and shot the captain.

I agree Keamy dies , freither goes Kaboom!!

The reunion/kiss between Sayid and Nadia looked kind of awkward.

Faraday's notes say "Space like factors" and "Possible!" wow, can we expect a legitimate scientific explanation.

Expected Shambala to play when Hurley started the camero

Genghis

Good luck Vacc

Sun and group didn't get a penny from Airline. Widmore payed them off to keep quiet and never mention the island. Widmore must have given them a lot of cash so that they would co-operate and not sell their story to the lifetime station.

Forgive me if someone else has already brought this up, but what I don't get is how can that little Zodiac make it back and forth from the freighter so quickly? Isn't the freighter supposed to be 40 miles off the coast of the island? If that's the case, then it's already travelled 120 miles. How can it carry enough gas?

Alex, don't take this the wrong way, but your post made me laugh. It's not the content -- your point about Widmore is just as valid as anything else -- but I always crack up when people swoop in with "definitive" statements about "Lost."

After four seasons, the only thing I'm sure of is that nothing on this show is definitive.

@95, GatorGal

Henrik is one of the Portuguese men in Penny's listening station.

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Henrik

I am never going to get caught up this week - over 100 comments already, and I haven't even watched the show yet. Just knowing this review is here is KILLING me!!!

Cecil Rose said,
"Can�t be a step-mom if never married to dad. Is there a word of �mother of your half-sister�?"

In my family we use the term
"mother un-law" for my relationship to my partner's daughter in law. It is appropriate for use in this situation too.
______________

lovelost said:
"Another favorite line: Sawyer to Jack, "Did you cut yourself shaving?"

Hilarous! I missed that completely.

@99 Cecil Rose:
"actual Fonzie shark-hump here:"
The vision of Fonzie mating with a shark just makes me laugh.

Thank You, I really need that.

I have been away for awhile, busy with real life stuff, but have always read the reviews, some of the comments. I have read all of today's at least. Keep it coming.

I can't believe that I am the first to say, "MIF!"

GRAA, Mac.

@99. lovelost noticed:

>What's up with the box that Ben dug up? A mirror, binocs and .... saltines?

Pretty clearly survival stuff, though why it�s located where it is is a mystery.

That mirror, if you look close, has a transparent �X� in the center of it. The back side is also mirrored in the middle. You look though that �X� from the back, then look at the target through the �X�, stand so that the sunlight falls though the "X" and makes an illuminated �X� on your cheek, then move the mirror until the reflection of the �X� on your cheek lines up with the actual �X� in the mirror, and the mirror is aligned to reflect sunlight to your target. It�s easier than it sounds.

It was standard Air Force survival kit issue some years ago, though it�s been supplanted by an improved model without an �X� that�s half-silvered in the center and creates a bright spot in the image you see looking though the half-silvered portion. Lay that bright spot over the target and you�re flashing it. Even easier and more intuitive.

<><><><><><><><>

@104 islandlurker observed:

>Did anyone else notice this in the first scene: when looking out of the front windshield of the military plane, you get the feeling that the plane is moving in reverse because the clouds are getting smaller and smaller, even though the plane must be moving forward...watch it again and let me know what you think.

That�s the effect of a telephoto lens zooming out (wider, less magnification, wider field of view).

Directors have been known to use that effect in dolly shots by tracking the dolly toward the character or scene being focused on while zooming out, resulting in the character in the center of focus staying the same size, while the surroundings seem to shrink away, thus heightening our attention to the central scene.

<><><><><><><><>

@105 GGG recalled:

>Remember last week when the Captain was pointing a gun at Keamy after he killed the Doctor. Keamy told the captain, you can't kill me cause I have this, (pointing to the device on his arm) and shot the captain.

>I agree Keamy dies , freighter goes Kaboom!!

The thing that bothered me about that scene is the Captain has to know what the device is and what it does for it to be credible, and clearly the Captain doesn�t.

I hope Locke is able to move the island to 9:00 Eastern...8:00 would be even better.

The Sun-Mr. Paik scene reinforced my feeling that Jin is not dead, though neither is he on the island. I think he may have slipped off the freighter(when it explodes?) but drifts off into the wrong heading and ends up in the past, possibly setting up assistance to Sun's take-over.

I tried to get this into last week's mind boggler (this week's episode was just crowded) but missed the cutoff time.

I have been thinking lately that the island and everything else are perfectly in sync. What seems to be strange is the result of a communication problem with the island. Lets posit that light had difficulties penetrating whatever it is that surrounds the island. Whether it be visible light or radio, if the speed of light slows down by passing through the event cone of a black hole from some other part of the universe or Alice's looking glass or the emerald palace or whatever, then what appears to be time travel is just signal delay in one direction or another.

Why did Daniel say "This is not good" when he discovered the synchrony problem.

I still think the best way to think about lost is the way we think about the Odyssey. We suspend a need for rational explanations and enjoy the show for its insights into human nature and the grand themes of story telling, love, adventure, mystery, and revenge.

further to the post regarding: how you can buy a company with the money given during a crash?

I am under the assumption that not only can Sun use her money (and pool the money from the other 5) for the leverage to buy her dads company, but that Ben's minions has money and gives it to Sun. Ben then uses this as leverage on Sun for some yet to be seen reason. This will give ben and the gang assests equal to widmore.

shot in the dark.

Faraday is a liar - so is big red.

I got a strange vibe from Clair's mom.

later

c

so, the saltines were 15 years old. Is that the last time the survival kit/mirror signaling were used? Anything of importance happen 15 years ago in our Lost timeline? Does it perchance coincide with the purge?

Somebody help me out here. I don't expect to be "on to" something; every theory I ever throw out is immediately shot down. (My brain seems to be slowing down with age. Hard to keep up, dontcha know.) I don't mind, though. I have real-life stuff to worry about; Lost is merely a pleasant diversion . . .

@lostsox / #115: Amen to that.

That whole thing with Sun buying up a controlling interest in her dad's corporation seemed to come from completely out of the blue...

? 36. Posted by: LostedIt

I didn't find that so left field. Lots of movies refer to the adult child buying dad's company and ruining him. I suppose it is the modern version of Oedipus.

I think Faraday is going to figure large in the coming eps. Recall that when he was helping Des, Faraday wrote in his notebook that Des was his constant (the way Penny was Des's) in the event he started Quantum Leaping.

Sawyer is apparently back on his game, *Genghis*. *New Otherton* I cracked up.

For those of you, like Deep Cover, who feel that its *game over* because of the future flashes. I would suggest you sit tight. I felt that way initially, but now anticipate a giant shift. After all, if we know everything and the producers are just working out the final details, the show would be done in a few weeks. There is no way they could stretch this out for another two seasons.

~So has it been established which order the "flash forwards" occur? I haven't wanted to believe it, but I'm thinking that the first one (with crazy bearded Jack) was the furthest and each one gets closer and closer back to the rescue and/or island events (which we'll see next week). I hate that, though, because it made me so sad last season to see Jack so tormented (not that I particularly like Jack, but it would be nice to see a "happily ever after" ending for everyone).

~After Sawyer handed off Aaron to Kate and then Kate to Sun, I kept thinking, "Okay, now how do they plan on feeding that baby?" It drove me nuts.

~Why would Keamy need to blow up the boat if he gets killed? To ensure no survivors get off? That puzzles me. And I know there are several of you who think Keamy is hot...but ew, ew, ew! He's so repulsive. *shudder*

~I thought the reunions were touching, but sad when Sayid and Kate didn't have anyone there at first.

~If the freighter blows up, then how do Sun and Aaron get off (which we know they do)and why wouldn't Des and Jin and Michael get off, too, and then also get rescued?

~I was wondering, too, who all the other people were that were getting off the island and on the the freighter and how they are going to explain them away.

~My husband started to doze off during the funeral scene when Claire's mom approaches Jack. As soon as I heard her accent, I said, "Wake up!" I knew exactly what was coming. I'm glad Jack knows...and now we know that when he's reading the bedtime story to Aaron and trying to be Daddy, and when Hurly says "You're not supposed to raise him", that Jack knew Aaron was his nephew. But it makes me wonder why Jack didn't want to see him at all around the time of Kate's trial.

~The review mentioned that Jack's dad's memorial took place 10 months later than it was supposed to....why 10 months later? Isn't it more like a few weeks?

Thanks mac, great review as always! We'll miss you in two weeks but will look forward to vacc's review & your comments.

Just a few observations:

Charlotte is an idiot. And a bitch.

Danny is enjoying his "heroic" role.

Saltines are bad enough when fresh.

Anyone else notice Sawyer's reference to Bensylvania as "New Otherton"? Funny...

The whole island-as-sentient-being is getting more annoying each episode. It was a stretch when Tom first brought it up, & now it seems to be a convenient out whenever TPTB want to manufacture an excuse for someone to not get killed. Are we supposed to assume that the island wanted Alex, Danielle, etc., to be killed, then? Or was it off-duty & missed its cue to wipe out Keamy's team's guns?

I'm not an economist & don't know much about the process of buying a controlling interest in a company, but I thought it was rather unrealistic to make a plot point of Sun buying a controlling interest in her father's company. However, it was *very* satisfying in terms of sticking it to Mr. Paik. Sun is more her father's daughter than perhaps she'd like to admit.

The whole Kate-Aaron storyline teeters extremely close to total implausibility...but unfortunately most of Kate's storyline over these four years has done the same. I think she could have been a lot more interesting character w/better backstory explanations & continuity.

As far as it being Claire's mom who shows up at Christian's memorial service & spills the beans to Jack, I think it would have been more realistic for it to have been Claire's aunt. As occam (#30) & others have mentioned, Claire's mom seemed to be in a permanent vegetative state.

Loved Ben's instructions to Locke, especially the part about which plant to look behind. Does Locke know his botany as well as Ben obviously does?

? 8. Clementine: "Sayid and Nadia are running a close second to Des and Penny in my awesome love story rankings":

Agreed...if someone looked at me the way Sayid looked at Nadia I think I'd turn into a puddle of melted butter. Hopefully Des & Penny's final outcome is better than Sayid & Nadia's. : (

? 25. Speedmaster: The Numbers in Hurley's car:

Poor Hurley. Those numbers seem to be haunting him more than anyone else on the show...actually, do the Numbers show up in anyone else's backstory, or is it just Hurley's? If it is just Hurley who's pursued by the Numbers, why him? Have we considered the possibility that Hurley's hallucinating & seeing the Numbers in places that they're not?

? 68. bcre8ve: "DOCTOR: Why are you giving me this patient's chart? She's been in a comma for months":

I think "ellipsis" works better than "comma" in this case... ; >

? 76. BluSerene: Simple arithmetic:

Nice catch...will we see TPTB address it?

? 86. welh: The freighter's location, reefs, etc.:

If I remember correctly, the second mate said that w/o the sonar transmission functioning he wouldn't go any closer to the island than five miles.

? 99. Cecil Rose: Fonzie & shark-humping:

Thanks for the laugh...I won't be able to hear the phrase "shark jumping" ever again w/o thinking of the alternative!

? 102. Blinkard Philistine: What Sun said about Jin:

She says, after some significant glances w/Jack, that her husband never made it off the plane.

I'm thinking that it was Jack who cut a deal to participate in The Big Lie, assuming that he was speaking for all of the O6.

? 108. RAW: The Zodiac & its gas-carrying capabilities:

Maybe it's got a Prius hybrid engine in it. ; )

? 117. August Paul: Enjoying LOST:

I agree. The idea of a rational explanation at this point is pretty unlikely, but I'm still enjoying the ride!

"Hump the Shark" -- Does that have anything to do with Shark Week?

@119 dharma anne

The closest thing timline wise that happened near 15 years ago was the arrival of Danielle Rousseau and her crew, which if Sayid was mathematically right on how many times the loop was played on the distress call, then give or take a year, thats the only event I remember.

Going back old school, I haven't done the math myself but, I always wondered if Sayid actually new what he was doing when he said it was on loop for 16 years. He never was to good at anything other than torture ><

I'm not sure if this is obvious or not but here goes. Going back to Ben's midnight visit to Widmore's penthouse. Didn't Ben tell Widmore, "You'll never find it." ? Well Ben already knows that Widmore has found the island & sent Keamy & Co., so what is the "it" that Widmore will never find???

re: "New Otherton"

That's what the writers have been calling it, but iirc that's the first use of it in the show.

Personally, I like "Bennsylvania" or "Losteria Lane" better.

@notsoeasy

I actually thought it was pretty believable that Jack wouldn't want anything to do with Aaron, at least at first. Aaron is basically a living reminder that his dad cheated on his mom. Something like that would probably take a little while to get over.

I do wonder why Keamy and his crew would want to blow up the freighter though. How are they planning to get home without it? That copter can't travel that far, can it? Was it actually established that it was Keamy that rigged the freighter?

@ # 126
The way I'm interpreting that is that Keamy & crew found it temporarily, but not for good. Widmore must not have taken control of it like he wants to. In other words, Keamy must fail.

So are all these people supposed to be all over the place now. On the freighter, on the island on the heli etc... I sure hope that locke doesn't "move" the island and they all find themselves back on the island again due to a time shift.

Also since the Heli hit a massive storm and turbulence when heading to the island, shouldn't the zodiac boat also hit some sort of storm heading in and out of the island? What about the timeshifts? Is sayid landing on the island in the future? Is sayid still on the freighter?

@128. I think if the device on keamy goes off if his heart beat stops then that means he's dead so they'd want to destroy the freighter and any evidence that they were out there.

I wish my truck got the kind of gas mileage that Sayid's inflatable boat gets!

@128 and 131:
Also as a guarantee that the freighter wont leave Keamy and his goons behind.

About the mirror flashing, I'm thinking it was Ben sending a distress call to Alpert, since temples are often built high up in the mountains and I think Ben and Alpert are ostensibly still on the same "team." The message could be signaling Alpert and crew to go to the Orchid station. This wouldn't be the first time Ben has allowed himself to be captured while already having a plan in place for his rescue.

About the freighter bomb, it doesn't make sense to me that Keamy is behind it. He's a mercenary and I have to assume he wants to survive, so blowing up the freighter could potentially strand him on the island. Why would he do that? Second, what protection does that provide him against Ben and his crew? Ben would be happy to blow up the freighter. It's gotta be someone else who set the bomb.

But as always, it's just conjecture...

I'm stuck on a plane. 2 hour delay and it's bitter sweet b/c I'm going to miss my dinner reservations for tonight, BUT I get free drinks and get to read the Lost blog.Jacob bless my crackberry!

So, I don't get why Keamey would want to blow up the freighter. who would that benefit? The more merc and crew who die, the more questions their families will have about what happened to them.shouldn't they try to be on the down low considering all the crimes they're commiting and the fact that the island is a secret. also if there's one thing I know about international waters it's that gambeling is legal among other things...different laws apply (that was 4 u cecil).

Really looking forward to Vacc's review as his past posts and articles have been awesome. No pressure or anything ;)

I am new here, but just wanted to say that this recap was so witty and well written, and just what the doctor ordered. I laughed out loud so many times and I really needed a laugh today. But I do want to add that while being humorous, it made so many excellent points and provided an amazing recap. Thank you so much, and I am sorry that you noted that this was your last recap for the season. I would love to have read more from you. You are very talented. Thanks again.

Your best line (and it was hard because there were so many)...

"Keamy digs the barrel of his gun into Ben's forehead (inadvertently activating Ben's buggy-eye G-spot ... whoops)"

Second best - Brain matter erupts from a fissure in Jack's forehead.

Great stuff.

..one more accolade...because I was so entertained by your writing --

"I needed a freighter phone just to keep track of all the moving dots."

Really fuuny stuff...thanks again!

One other thing that's been bugging me since the flash forward about Kate's trial. Where is her dad????!!????

Especially if they were landing on a military base, why wouldn't he be there? He wouldn't have to be mushy, but he could be there looking on.

Yo Mac, thanks again for another entertaining review.

Yo Vacc...no pressure Bruthuh- just be yourself. No one expects you to be a Mac-clone, and I'm looking forward to your interpretation of the finale...and to Mac's inevitable more-than-usual comment posts!

ilblxoxo...I thought Sun seemed very happy to see her mom, but not so much her dad. Also...I tried really hard to have Jack's breathing bother me in this episode. But I didn't notice any weird breathing except when he was out of breath, which is forgivable. Are you sure it's not all in your head?

? 28. Posted by: taylor0822
"While I was thrilled to see that Claire's mom had conquered the coma, I thought that was the lamest possible way to reveal the Jack/Claire connection."

Can you think of a less-lame way for it to have been revealed? Because I didn't think it was lame at all. I thought it was perfect. And Jack's reaction was priceless...actually pretty good Matthew Fox acting. I'm so glad one of them finally knows. Chances are that (high as a kite) Claire also knows now, as ghost Dr. Daddy wouldn't keep that info from her.

I agree with those of you saying that if the numbers aren't going to be 'explained' in any significant way, then they need to quit being so prominent in Hurley's life.

OK, so Aaron can't nurse from Claire anymore once she goes off galavanting with Dr. Daddy. It's feasible that Aaron could survive with no nutrition from the time Sawyer found him to the time the O6 were 'rescued' (by Jeff Probst...brilliant Mac!) on the island of Sumba. Then he could've immediately been fed formula, water, or even cow's milk from a bottle and been fine from then on. There probably was very little time from when Aaron arrived on the freighter with Sun to when he arrived on Sumba, as we shall soon see.

I agree that the future flashes have made some of these scenes a bit anti-climactic. We know Ben survives the Keamy encounter for example, so it takes some tension away. Don't get me wrong...I can't wait to see how it plays out, but I really hope that the future-flash with Jack shouting "We have to go back!" to Kate is the farthest we'll see into the future...as far as future flashes go. Then I hope that real time catches up with that future-flash so we really don't know what's coming next by the end of the series.

@ 134/ Scooby-Dude

And something more obvious: the people on the boat just found out now that there is a whole room wired with explosives? Wouldn't the crew have noticed that before now?

Ben already had his bomb on board with Michael's cargo.
Was Widmore's plan that the mercenaries and the crew were on a suicide mission, one way or another?

-sawyerishot... you should definitely check out Mac's review archives from this and past seasons. Very entertaining and well worth the reads. Glad you found this site...you won't be sorry!

How did Farraday come to have a correctly-named sketch of the Orchid station in his journal?

I think this is a significant question. Farraday's story is clearly not done by a long shot. As the resident physicist-studying space/time anomalies and paradigms on perception, Daniel I suspect will be in some future flashes.

Among the parallels is Richard Alpert and Matthew Abbadon.
Richard Alpert bothers me. He is ageless, as Abbadon appears to be. Many people seem to think Alpert is a 'good' guy, and Abbadon as the 'bad' guy. I see him as one of the 'bad' guys. He finds a way to manipulate Ben's dad to get him on the island. Once there, he manipulates Ben into killing off the Dharma folks. Richard was influential in getting Juliet to the island when her husband gets hit by the bus. Ben tries to get Locke to kill his father, but it is Richard who peruades Locke to use Sawyer's connection to kill the elder con man. Also, when Richard tests Locke in the backstory, does he look disappointed by the 5-yr-old Locke's choices, or does he look angry/threatened. I think more on the angry side. Locke hasn't exactly made the best choices. Could he be the "chosen one", but simply made a bad choice (choosing the knife over the Book of Laws)? How is that choice (knife = war vs Book = peace?) relevant or significant?

@ 139 / DB

What about Kate's husband, Kevin, the Florida policeman? I don't recall them getting a divorce before she fled to Australia.
Kate looked like she expected some one to meet her at the reunion.

Re: Keamy and the Hear Monitor.

I think it would be obvious that Keamy set the explosives as a failsafe. He seems to be the type of person who if he doesn't make it, no one does.

I orignally thought the heart monitor was hooked up to a portable nuke to destroy the island if he fails/dies. But seeing all the C-4 on the freighter, the heart monitor makes a lot more sense.

Someone mentioned that last episode the heart monitor didn't work because the captain didn't know what it was. I think the captain realized what it was, which is why he didn't try to shoot Keamy. I think the captain's "What is that?" was more of a "What are you planning?"

It's pretty obvious that Keamy is Widmore's boy through and through and will do anything to accomplish his mission.

@136 sawyerishot chimed in:

>Thank you so much, and I am sorry that you noted that this was your last recap for the season. I would love to have read more from you. You are very talented. Thanks again.

(sawyerishot) You shot Sawyer?

Don't be sad. There's four whole seasons of back gems of mac's writing you have to peruse while waiting until February.

Start here:

http://tinyurl.com/54w9g6

And welcome to the communuity, by the way.

Here's how I think it was possible for Sun to buy a controlling interest in the company - she already had a significant stake in the company to begin with.

I don't think it's unrealistic that a percentage of shares of Paik's company could already have been in Sun's name - perhaps as a way for Paik to safeguard his own interests - maybe he reaps a benefit for owning fewer shares on paper, while still maintaining control over all of those shares.

For any outsider to gain a controlling stake they would need to accumulate more shares than the combined shares of Paik and Sun - and if together they own more than 50%, it couldn't be done.

The only one who could is Sun.

Assuming Dad owned 30% of the company and another 25% was in Sun's name then together they have 55%. Sun would need to buy another 5 1/2% stake in the company - 12% of the outstanding shares to own more than Dad.

At this point Sun would still need to have more capital or financial backing than her dad - because with 39% of the company in outstanding shares he could simply increase his own stake until Sun ran out of money.

So even if the company were worth 1Billion dollars, Sun could probably manipulate major shareholders to back her in a takeover bid is she already owned nearly as many shares as Mr Paik.

Keamy so dreamy
But some ken for Ben
Yet the question remains
Are they good or bad men?

@99/lovelost "What's up with the box that Ben dug up? A mirror, binocs and .... saltines?"

A tried and true method of communicating over long distances long before modern equipment was to spread sentries out over long distances but just within line of vision of at least one, probably two others. So for point A to communicate with point C which might be on the other side of a mountain, they first communicate with point B on top of the mountain who in turn communicates to point C.

The Chinese used this method effectively along the Great Wall of China. It can be surprisingly fast.

I mention this to submit that the Others may have stashes of mirrors and stale crackers placed at stretegic intervals all around the island.

118/lostatwork "...not only can Sun use her money (and pool the money from the other 5) for the leverage to buy her dads company, but..."

Could be that Hurley threw his lottery winnings in. Afterall, he didn't want it and he and Sun seemed pretty buddy, buddy after she gave birth.

Sun is definitely a force to be reckoned with.
I think they should do her entire backstory in Anime like the story of O- Ren Ishii in Kill Bill part 1. (tinyurl.com/68fech )

@150 bcre8ve guessed:

>Could be that Hurley threw his lottery winnings in. After all, he didn't want it and he and Sun seemed pretty buddy, buddy after she gave birth.

But he pretty much said in the ep he gave it to mom and dad.

123/Ala�s_Longthought "8. bcre8ve: "DOCTOR: Why are you giving me this patient's chart? She's been in a comma for months":

I think "ellipsis" works better than "comma" in this case..."

I have to disagree. I should have gone with colon. That way...

NURSE: Doctor, is she still in her colon?
DOCTOR: No, she's coming out of it. I guess you could say she's in a semi-colon.

But really, good catch. That's why they make me work with an editor. If spell check doesn't catch it then I am in trouble.

So I'm finally getting around to commenting on this episode, after watching it a couple times and reading Mac's review (great, as always), as well as the following comments. Here are some random thoughts:

First of all, I thought that the future flashes after the initial landing/press conference were intentionally meant to parody soap operas. Sun taking over her dad's company: Extremely Soapy. Jack finding out that Claire is(was?) his long lost sister via her mother who miraculously has recovered from her coma: Soapiness factor of 9.5. Maybe not so much the part with Hurley and the surprise party, but whatever.

Now, I don't think the writers would do this unintentionally and just be taking the show in a completely dumb direction... I think their work over the last four seasons consistentally shows that they are brilliant people who are always several steps ahead of us...especially since we know they're working towards a definitive end-date.

The only alternative, then, in my mind, is that Darlton and their cohorts know EXACTLY what they are doing, and when it's all said and done we'll be more than satisfied with the result. I think it's important to see this episode, in particular, very much hour one of the three hour finale and not intended to make much sense as an episode on its own. Anyway that's just my two cents, and I hope Darlton doesn't let us down in two weeks.

Other random observation: What was the co-pilot of the cargo plane holding and saying he "needed it" because the cargo they were carrying was "bad voodoo" or whatever?

154/Jin's Flashlight "What was the co-pilot of the cargo plane holding and saying he "needed it" because the cargo they were carrying was "bad voodoo" or whatever?"

A rabbit's foot for good luck.

@95/110
Henrik is one of the Portuguese men in Penny's listening station.
===========
He speaks Portugese, and English too. HENRIK is Scandinavian, Slovic, Germanic in origin, not from Portugal.

Sounds like he is the new Mikhail/Patchie in the Artic.

his motto: There's No Place Like Homer (Alaska).

bcre8ve: "In a semi-colon!"

It caught me so off guard that coffee came out my nose...it hurt a little bit.

On the buried signal box: why bury it 15 years ago? There is no purpose for it.
Dharma was an advanced scientific community - - with communication equipment (including Ben's secret closet) and walkie-talkies.
It's not like the Alpert/Hostiles are anti-technology (and buried the box) since they are running around the island with semi-automatic weapons.

To the fellow Lost obsessives who congregate on this blog, this episode had so many implausibilities, plot holes, and "wtf" moments that it tasted exactly like biting into a 15 year old cracker.

Based on the sensational season finale last year, I believe (and hope) we are merely being set up by the writers for the season ending episode. We have been distracted with a dinghy with bottomless fuel reserves, a miraculous Australian coma recovery, and an infant that apparently never gets fed but grows at Barry Bonds-level proportions.

Then in two weeks, with our guard down, we'll get hit right between the eyes with the emotional TKO that Lost has delivered so many times in the past.

BTW, given that Widmore paid for and set up the freighter operation that is threatening to kill everyone and destroy the island, wouldn't he be the "second person" Sun is referring to?

Since it is unlikely they will kill off the entire non-Oceanic 6 cast, it seems this season is a transition one that splits the story arc into two distinct parts- on-island (Locke, Sawyer, etc) and off-island with Ben and the Oceanic 6. The final two seasons would then slowly converge those two arcs back into one again, with the likely final resolution back on the island.

Then again, I could be wrong and the final season could end with the entire cast waking up in bed together with Bob Newhart and Suzanne Pleshette.

@welh/158
"It's not like the Alpert/Hostiles are anti-technology (and buried the box) since they are running around the island with semi-automatic weapons."

Yet they dress on-island like homeless hippie refugees from Chuck Manson's commune, rather than in proper gear (which is clearly available to them, and in-use when they appear off-island). Why is that? They no longer have to maintain the "yurt village" ruse anymore (to steal the term Cecil Rose used earlier), so what gives? Does modern clothing offend Jacob or something?

Anybody else notice the "other" person on the plane? When the Oceanic rep goes back to prep the O6 about their arrival, it looks like she nods hello to a person sitting towards the front. Did you see the person? I think I noticed the legs of someone sitting up there. Anyone see this?

If it is someone else, who might it be?

bcrea8ve and cecil re: the stash box

? 158 welh makes my point exactly. But more importantly: why saltines???? Like they would sustain a person for any length of time. Or that they'd even be edible after 15 years! Or even still be there!! Is the box airtight? What about ants or worms or rain?

Maybe that's another reason the Island is so special: there AREN'T any bugs, ants, or usual crawly things, save the occasional deadly spider. (Do I have that right?)

Sorry - nothing cerebral or heady here. These little things just eat away at me. ;-)

Here's a link which shows the person sitting on the plane as the O6 are being briefed.

http://tinyurl.com/6guq6k

I have no idea who it might be.

@Drea/128
"I do wonder why Keamy and his crew would want to blow up the freighter though. How are they planning to get home without it?"

Several people have suggested the device on Keamy's arm will detonate the explosives if he dies, and I agree. I also think there's more to it than just leverage with those left behind though ...

What if the secondary protocol had Keamy leaving the island via the Orchid Station all along? Assuming there's some kind of portal in the basement (perhaps that which Ben used to get to Tunisia later?), when Keamy leaves, boom goes the boat, leaving no traces, or unreliable people behind, to spill the beans about the island later.

Widmore would capture the island, and keep it a secret in this scenario.

@158
On the buried signal box: why bury it 15 years ago? There is no purpose for it. Dharma was an advanced scientific community - - with communication equipment (including Ben's secret closet) and walkie-talkies.
It's not like the Alpert/Hostiles are anti-technology (and buried the box) since they are running around the island with semi-automatic weapons.
===========
It is a last-ditch 'protocol'. All of the comm & electronics could be tracked, traced & triangulated. The 'crackers' were planted 15 years ago, before the Purge. The box could be a century old plant, with different equipment in it over the years. The signal mirror is a relatively 'secure' directional communication device. Ben knew there'd be a lookout at that point on the ridge. He made the correct number of flashes to identify himself as friend - versus foe. nuthin mo'

For all those who are saying the show is predictable now, and that the flash-forwards caused you to know everything that is going on, I believe you are very short-sighted. What the heck do you really know? That Jack won't die? Kate and Aaron live happily ever after?

I keep getting an uneasy feeling when I see the flash scenes, because we don't quite know if they are forward, back, present, different timeline, etc. We all have absolutely no proof that anything is what it seems. I think you lack imagination if you think everything will turn out exactly as you believe it will from the flash scenes.

@vacc/147
"So even if the company were worth 1Billion dollars, Sun could probably manipulate major shareholders to back her in a takeover bid is she already owned nearly as many shares as Mr Paik."

As the company I work for recently faced a possible takeover bid, it occurred to me immediately that the board of directors would be involved; in that case, Mr. Paik could hardly be surprised. Not being an i-banker myself, I did a quick wiki search on "hostile takeover" for more info and found this:

>>>
A takeover is considered "hostile" if:

The board rejects the offer, but the bidder continues to pursue it, or
The bidder makes the offer without informing the board beforehand

A hostile takeover can be conducted in several ways. A tender offer can be made where the acquiring company makes a public offer at a fixed price above the current market price. Tender offers are regulated with the Williams Act. An acquiring company can also engage in a proxy fight, whereby it tries to persuade enough shareholders, usually a simple majority, to replace the management with a new one which will approve the takeover. Another method involves quietly purchasing enough stock on the open market, known as a creeping tender offer, to effect a change in management. In all of these ways, management resists the acquisition but it is carried out anyway.

The main consequence of a bid being considered hostile is practical rather than legal. If the board of the target cooperates, the bidder can conduct extensive due diligence into the affairs of the target company. It can find out exactly what it is taking on before it makes a commitment. But a hostile bidder knows about the target only the information that is publicly available, and so takes a greater risk. Also, banks are less willing to back hostile bids with the loans that are usually needed to finance the takeover.
>>>

Not sure what the equivalent corporate laws would be in Korea, but I assume similar. This makes it very hard to believe Sun could've pulled this off as a bad surprise to Mr. Paik.

However, believability seems to be taking a back seat lately.

On who is the bad guy Alpert or Abbadon.

They are both bad and good, the Others were the uber-bad but will be a welcomed partner in fighting the Mercs. Abbadon was a part of the team that sent the mercs to the island, who are ok with killing everyone even babies. But Abbadon sent John Locke to the island.( to put things simply) Like everyone else in this show, its complicated and layered. We thought for a long time Jack was the uber-hero but he has proven to be flawed. Juliet, Ben, Michael all ambiguously good and bad characters.

Now that's entertainment.

Here is another one for you - Ben 'poppin' into Tunisia. FF to Season 5 premiere week... just seconds before he is doing battle with the two horsemen in the desert... we see him doing battle with Team Keamy. He evades them. And squeezes that watermelon fanny of his into the "Orchid" device. Let me think... he showed us his collapsing baton (beatdown stick) and to Locke last night. He may have handed it to him too. So he gets it back from John at some point, sticks it in his Halliwax parka pocket (parts of the Orchid are cold), makes his escape... full circle... he went thru the Orchid quickly so he just didn't know when he would come out, or where for that matter.

@161 Gabriel observed:

>?Anybody else notice the "other" person on the plane? When the Oceanic rep goes back to prep the O6 about their arrival, it looks like she nods hello to a person sitting towards the front. Did you see the person? I think I noticed the legs of someone sitting up there. Anyone see this?

>If it is someone else, who might it be?

and @163 added:

>http://tinyurl.com/6guq6k

>I have no idea who it might be.

I'll be darned if I can see anyone in that picture, unless that's someone's arm and shulder on the forward right side (we're looking forward) near the light from the window.

That said, C-130's normally carry at least one enlisted crew member in addition to the pilots, and that crew designation is "loadmaster", so perhaps that's who's there, if anyone.

@Jin's Flashlight/154
"Soapiness factor of 9.5."

Couldn't agree more. I've commented previously on the many cues the writers seem to have taken from the soaps, but this epi takes the cake! Not saying there isn't a place for it, but they need to be very careful ...

Actually, this epi more reminded of an old "Batman" episode (Robin exclaims "Holy conundrum Batman, yet another fine diabolic mess you've gotten us into!" as they dangle over a pool of hungry sharks, facing certain doom ... Could this truly be the end of the dynamic duo? Tune in next time, same bat-time, same bat-channel!) ...

My brother and I used to come up with elaborate schemes they could use to extricate themselves from these apparently impossible situations ... only to be sorely disappointed by the incredibly lame resolution (Batman breathily mutters [quick aside, has Matthew Fox been studying Adam West's voice technique?], "It's a good thing I packed my recently-developed instant-ice pellets in my utility belt, Robin! Now, if I can *just* manage to drop one in the shark tank ... [does so, and water freezes solid just before they drop to the now-safe surface]. Maybe you'll remember this the next time you complain about your science studies!" Robin replies, "Golly Batman, you're right ... I'll never neglect my chemistry homework ever again!"). Yet we always came back for the next episode, same bat-time, same bat-channel!

Holy manipulation, I feel like a tool!

Arghhhhh.....

The Aaron as Kate's baby spin is ultra lame writing, but I guess we saw it coming.

So - In the fake world of Kate's pregnancy, at what point in her backstory did she get pregnant?

Will we have a future episode where her cop ex husband demands that Aaron be tested for paternity?

Also - there will most certainly be an episode with Cassidy tracking Kate down, to try to find info on the fate of Sawyer....

Very screwed up story the 06ers are telling. They have obviously been coached as to what they can say. Probably some DHARMA people at the press conference since they questioned Kate's pregnancy and the fact that they didn't look like they had been lost on an island, and made reference to "the island." Also, remember Michael was supposed to blow up the freighter. That was his purpose in being there. If and when he does that, possibly Jin will be killed at that time, and Sun possibly rescued. In that case I think Sun might be holding Michael to blame for Jin's death as well as her dad.

Time to go home for a little celebration with my bride of 32 years, today. Don't expect any more posts for a while.

Namaste, and good luck.

@Cecil Rose/171
"C-130's normally carry at least one enlisted crew member in addition to the pilots, and that crew designation is 'loadmaster', so perhaps that's who's there, if anyone."

Quite true, although the thing I noticed (having taken a few 130 flights) was the lack of noise in the plane's cargo hold ... in reality, the prop noise is simply deafening! Now, I realize this was a production device, such that they could converse before landing, but please, they could've had them shouting over some moderate background noise at least! You might think I'm nit-picking, but for those out there who've had the experience, it was so egregious as to seriously detract from the scene ... imagine a scene on any other show, say with a group chatting at a rock concert directly in front of the stage, but with the music barely audible above ambient in the background ... kinda the same deal.

@Cecil Rose/174
"Time to go home for a little celebration with my bride of 32 years, today. Don't expect any more posts for a while."

Congrats, and I HOPE we don't hear from you for a while, or I'll be worried! :)

@occam/30
@Deep Cover/44
@welh/59
@welh/63
"And when does the explosives read C-4 EXPLOSIVES! with an ! mark??"

Wow, another "Batman" ref! ;)

Good points by all ... I don't know about jumping the shark just yet (and "humping" may be more apropos, with the audience as the shark) ... maybe more like an epi from "Passions" though. I really hope D&C get it together for the finale, as this epi left some ridiculously gaping holes in credibility. Most notably, the whole "Kate is Aaron's biological mom" thing ...

I know, I know, how "credible" is a show "supposed" to be when it involves smoke monsters, apparitions of the dead, and time travel? As I've mentioned before though, none of that bothers me, as long as the plot is consistent ... they "broke the rules" with this epi.

Maybe they'll be clever enough to actually write that sentiment into the show somehow ... throughout the course of watching this show, I keep finding myself yoyoing between rolling my eyes in disappointment, and being impressed by the writers' skillful subterfuge with their audience. Definitely an eye-roller moment now ... waiting to be impressed with how they dig themselves out of this hole!

1) When "dead" Charlie visited Hurley at the nut house, didn't he urge Hurley to go back to the island to help the others?

2) Maybe the island is a huge hidden spaceship, and Widmore and Ben are playing an intergalactic game of "chess" with the Oceanic survivors as live pawns.

So guess what I did when I got home from school?!?!

... WRONG!

I watched LOST. again... DUH. =D (evil smiley)!!

So I'm in the process of reading the posts so I guess I'll comment on them as I'm reading them.

@ Mike - 6
How can you miss 20 minutes of an episode without feeling empty!?!?

I start every episode 17 minutes later... so like... 10:17 PM. That way, I can forward the commercials, but still finish on time.

GET Ti-Vo MIKE!

@ Celementine - 8
Jack is a jackass. Seriously. SOO ANNOYING! And his breathing was annoying in this epsiode too!!! Actually, everything he did was annoying. I think his breathing wasn't the worst thing this time. But in "Something Nice Back Home" it was annoying as hell. Gosh.

@ Apollo - 10
Really? Your HD ABC got cut off? Mine was fine.

So guess what... I'm spoiled. I can't watch LOST. unless it's in HD... or anything for that matter. But especially LOST. If it's not in HD, it's painful.

I'm guessing Claire never showed up again after leaving with Christian.

So I guess those people that brought them back home knew what actually happened? I saw someone say that they thought Widmore probably paid Oceanic to keep everything a secret and make up this story.

The timeline is confusing me. Despite Kate's baby making no sense, the number of days that the public thinks they were on the island, seems consistent with the time they actually were on the island. (If that made any sense).

Aaron looks old!!! I can't believe the public believes that crap. And how will Sun explain her pregancy, considering the fact that Jin died in the crash, and she doesn't really look that pregnant when they get off the plane, back home.

So who made up the story? Was it the Oceanic 6 -- Because he waited for the lady to leave until he said, "we all know the story". Blah blah blah. Or did she tell them the story? Or was it someone else?

@ Mac
Though I'm sure Vacc will do a great job, we'll sure miss your Mac-isms.

I suppose you'll post them... but still.

The random extras on this show crack me up. Scott and Steve are the best!!!

@ taylor0822 - 28
Worst line?!? Don't expect to get on my list anytime soon.

Paik's answer to everything seems to be death. So maybe he's going to plan to kill Sun. Doubt it though.

So did anyone else notice, that there were only TWO reporters asking questions the whole time? What about everyone else? Is that unusual?

@ PZ - 83
"ben wasn't really raised by his parents, Locke wasn't raised by his parents, Walt wasn't raised by his parents, Aaron isn't being raised by his parents. connection?"

Yes. Connection probably... but Ben wasn't loved, and Locke wasn't loved. Aaron seems to be... a little TOO loved?

... creepy

@ bcre8ve - 90
Haha, thanks. =D (Evil!!!)

About the evil smiley: I actually had a nightmare about it... I might be going Hurley (crazy) on myself but it really does looke evil!!! And I don't get scared!!!

@ Cecil Rose - 93
"So don�t leave. Last year we managed to keep up sustained conversations, both about Lost and other things, in the /r/a/n/s/o/m/ random topic area."

That's good to know. Thanks!

@ lovelost - 98
Do we know that Paik is connected to Widmore? Or is that just a speculation?

@ meg - 111
What's with the slacking lately?!?!? Haha. And on top of that, you moved on to Beamy (or whatever you named him)!!

Where's MIF!!!

(I'm just kidding. I suppose I just miss the "dollar" you put in to our discussion -- You're worth more than 2 cents too!)

I think the Sayid and Nadia "kiss" was really awkward. It was his mouth open, and she kissing him. He was quite spastic. Which brings me to a CONCLUSION: Sayid is a bad kisser.

(I know he was just surprised to see her).

@ sawyerishot - 136
Yes, we are all HUGE fans of Mac here... But, I'd have to say -- I am, in fact, His biggest fan. =]

@ JoePike - 140
Yo, Yo, Yo.

About Jack's breathing -- It's not all in my head!!! He's so annoying!!! Watch "Something Nice Back Home" and "Through the Looking Glass" again. Those were a few of his many WORST moments... I hate it!!!

Btw, we haven't seen you here in a while!

@ Scooby-Dude - 148
Brilliant. (Wow, now I feel British?)

@ bcre8ve - 153
I literally, LOLed at that one. I was drinking iced tea, and I almost spitted it out. -- But of course, I held it in, because then it will get all over my desk and stuff. So I choked on it instead. Thanks.

@ undaunted - 157
Haha! I just realized that you wrote that!!! I guess bcre8ve's comment caused us both some pain with beverages.

I got upto 165. Not sure how many are after that... I'm about to refresh the page after I post this.

That took me over an hour and 1/2.

Oh great... boozy's back. =/

@ Cecil Rose - 174
Congratulations!!!

Congrats to the other "old man" hereabouts! But, in a month, I'll beat you again . . . 39 years in June. Same wife. Best 23 years of my life . . .

(I know - OLD joke.)

Best wishes to you and the Missus.

DRH

?174. Cecil Rose
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY.

?181 davidrh
EARLY CONGRATULATIONS.

Too seldom do we hear about such longevity. And apparent happiness!

71
* Operation Greenhouse was the code name for America's A-bomb testing program in the 1950s... in the south pacific.

I thought the Orchid Logo looked like a mushroom cloud.

Thanks for the review Mac. Be sure to cancel those late night work think tanks and watch the show!

Jin's actual status remains unknown.
^^^

Jin is a goner remember the episode with Sun and Hurley visiting his grave

I thought in this episode they couldve made more of the desmond/daniel faraday meet at the boat, considering they time travelled together!

@berkyo/183
"I thought the Orchid Logo looked like a mushroom cloud."

Actually, it looks like a flower (see the link posted by NotLost/18 above):

http://tinyurl.com/6qydvr

What I found interesting were the two previous occurrences of the logo (on Ben's parka in Tunisia and the cover of the secondary protocol pamphlet). See this link for the pics:

tinyurl.com/5bclda

What I DIDN'T notice originally, is that the "I Ching" trigrams on the two logos are different! Two "I Ching" trigrams together make up a "hexagram" (trigram/hexagram terminology arising from the binary math involved ... there are 8 trigrams [3 binary bits required, i.e. two raised to the third power] and 64 hexagrams [6 binary bits] resulting from all possible combinations of the trigrams), and each has a specific meaning in Confucian thought.

Not going to go through the meanings of the hexagrams, but they involve many aspects of interest in Lost lore ... here is a link to the wiki page which describes them all:

tinyurl.com/463kep

What remains to be resolved, is whether the 4 hexagrams in each station logo begin at the top of the symbol, or the first octet clockwise (or maybe counter-clockwise?) in order to create each trigram-pair (i.e., hexagram, with meaning). The "total meaning" of each symbol will depend upon this logic ... good luck to anyone who takes it upon herself/himself to figure it out, based on all the station symbols that have been presented in the show so far! This will not be a simple task, and as dedicated as I am to this show, I just don't think so!

I am also curious to see if other station symbols have been presented with trigrams in different order as well ... maybe this is a clue, or yet another example of sloppy production. I don't know, and frankly am not willing to spend the time to find out ...

Kudos to anyone out there with the time and patience to figure this out though!

"Does the "photo by a local fisherman" reveal anything?"

Sun was not in the photo. The camera then pans down to her face. DK what that means.

Regarding the feeling that we already know what will happen. Well, maybe that's what they want us to think and after the Universe makes a correction it will all change. Also, There are a lot of people just finding LOST and maybe they want to make sure we are all in the same backyard, as to what's going on, so we can all enjoy the finale. Of course there are those like MY husband who watches every week and still says, Why is he doing that? Who is she? Where did he come from?

"On the buried signal box: why bury it 15 years ago? There is no purpose for it. "
Well, there is if you know that you will need it in 15 years.

My view of the finale.

Some of the 06 in the boat, some in the heli. All leaving the island and heading for the freighter- WHOOSH the island disappears and Kaboom - the freighter blows up. Lost again - the heli is out of gas and they bail out and join the others in the boat, the boat is out of gas and they drift to the island that they have photos of at the press conference.

"I thought the Orchid Logo looked like a mushroom cloud."

Actually, it looks like a flower (see the link posted by NotLost/18 above)

Sorry, I got it mixed up with the logo posted for the Temple.

Lostpedia has a page with the logos and a note on the orchid logo reads:

# The logos' I Ching lines, or hexagrams, are incorrect on Ben's parka, but they appear correct on Keamy's "Secondary protocol" manual cover.

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Station_logos

Ok, so where did Faraday get a sketch of the Orchid logo?

Think he has been there before? Or will be one day and took notes and sent them back to himself?

I don't care much about other mysteries right now, besides the Island.

Move it?
Bearing?

It feels pretty much like island doesn't physically exist, atleast not on earth.
Like it was surrounded with invisible wall with only one gate: correct bearing - in and out. Any other bearings won't reach island, even if you're theoretically in the middle of it.

Maybe that's the "move". They're going to change "gateway bearing" so it would be some other angle. So nobody could get onto island.

But how would it remove killer team from the island? Is it supposed to, at all?

I really don't see how the survival story is outrageous except for one point which I will get to...

First: They really did survive the crash of flight 815. That is so freaking preposterous! But they did survive. So the fact that only 6 of them made it isn't any harder to believe than that any of them made it.

Second: Why would anyone doubt Kate's saying she was pregnant? Why would she lie? The FACT is that a baby was born to a survivor of 815. Aaron is living proof of that so why would it occur to anyone to say, "I don't think that's your baby at all. When did you get pregnant? Who is the father? I don't believe you! Who did you steal that child from?" And especially why would they question it when there are 4 other adults who say it is her baby.

3. I do NOT understand why they had to lie about 2 other people surviving the crash but who subsequently died from their injuries. There has to be a reason for that lie but I'll be hornswaggled if I know what it is. Maybe it isn't a lie. Maybe they did have 2 other adults who made it off the island/freighter but died and the Oceanic 6 insisted that Oceanic Airlines return the bodies to the families.

The one point about their story that I have a lot of difficulty with is this: They crashed in the Indian Ocean. That would be the wrong ocean. Sydney to LA......north east over the Pacific.
Indonesia is almost west of Sydney. You fly over a continent to get there.

What the hell???? And none of the reporters asked, "Did any of the passengers realize during the flight that you were going in the wrong direction?" "Did the cabin crew give any indication that they were concerned?" "Didn't anyone think it was strange that you were flying over land for the first several hours of your trip?"

That just sticks in my craw! So to my mind it's little wonder no one questions Kates pregnancy when everyone appears to accept that Flight 815 crashed in the Indian freaking Ocean.

Reposted from the "Has Eden Been Found?" thread ... thoughts?

>>>
CathyH/vacc/mac, et al ...

Yet ANOTHER good religiously-based theory, with lots of supporting circumstantial evidence ... seems compelling on first glance ...

Until you realize the writers are apparently pursuing some relatively Unitarian/PC-safe approach here ... is there ANY religion and/or philosophy they have not yet made subtle/explicit reference to? There ARE some fundamental concepts the show keeps going back to, yet I find these mostly at the intersection point on a Venn diagram of historical thought comprising all reconized religions/philosophies. Throw in a little physics (also all over the map), and voila ... we have a product everyone can relate to, right? At some level, I like this approach, yet fundamentally find it intellectually lazy ...

I assume that the writers' assume (probably correctly) that there are so many literary/theological/philosophical/other references in the show, that the average viewer will "connect" with those familiar to them, and the rest will be ignored. This will leave "average" viewers with the feeling that the show has been "tailored" to them, when in fact it's more of an exercise in throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks (from each audience member's perspective).

I have been hoping they would refine their "view" at some point, to allow more in-depth discussion of the issues at hand, but am now convinced more than ever that will never happen. Why delve into the intricacies of Hindu thought with regard to the show, when there are supplementary/conflicting references to Protestant, Islamic, Catholic, Pagan, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Egyptian, Confucian, Mesoamerican, Buddhist, and dare I say, "Jedi" thought intermingled? The theological aspects are bad enough ... don't even get me started on the conflicting philosophies presented!

In short, I feel they have been playing too many cards for too long, and am getting sick of being dragged around the cultural playground. At least David Lynch had the balls to go with rather unconventional thought in "Twin Peaks" and stick to it, whether the audience "got it" or not ... J.J. is now striking me as merely a pied-piper of popular thought, rather than someone with something to say, and it saddens me.

I keep finding myself drawn to the show, for now ...

That could also change very quickly if I feel like I'm being used, and I'm damn close to that point right now ...
>>>

If this show ends like Alias I will boycott ABC forever!!! I Won't buy season 5 because it ended so badly,

Mac, you are the best. You enhance the whole Lost experience. Thank you.

I saw the LOST game the other day and almost bought it...but I thought ...there is no way I can reach the end before the end of the series...so I didin't buy it. Is it worth it?

As for the last episode, I was glad Sun got revenge on her dad....you go girl.

The numbers thing on the odometer creeped me out...but I had a car with a trip odometer that went down to the tenths...older cars did that.

I am going to be SO LOST without my Thursday night fix. I've already started watching season 1-3 since Feb...what am I going to do now?

There are only six confirmed survivors...we know Desmond was not on Oceanic, but he already makes seven. Mark my words, Sawyer is off that island. Snake. Mailbox. Also, the reason bearded drunk Jack can never find the island again is because they move it, to remain safe from the freighter folks.

Correcting my direction re: Sydney to Indonesia.... I meant to say Bali which is where both Naomi and Anthony Cooper said the media reported the wreckage of 815 was found, off the coast of Bali. North west of Sydney, over land.

notsoeasy: things that obviously don't go together: happily ever after and JACK! I'm an admitted Sawyer-Kate fan. If Jack's alone and unhappy, that works for me!

Ealgumby:

I agree with your take on the religious angle.

But I think the reason we see so many theories based on religion is because when Darlton was asked if there were any books we should be reading to help us understand LOST he told us to "keep reading the Bible".

Somepeople took that to mean there will be a Judeo Christian foundation to the story. But I don't think he meant to imply that LOST is actually based on a story from the Bible. I think he meant the Bible will point us in the direction of some hints to what is going on that are sitting right under our noses.

For instance: Jacob's wife died in childbirth delivering her second son, Benjamin. Jacob stole the birthright of his twin brother Esau____So that makes me wonder if Island Jacob is a twin who stole his own brother's birthright (the island) and that makes me wonder if Widmore is a direct descendant of that twin's line and is fighting to regain what is rightfully his?

I don't think for a minute there will be angels and Eden and satan. But I do think that if we know the stories we can apply what we know to LOST and have a revelation...no pun intended.

Here is another one: Aaron was Moses' brother. God talked to Moses; but Moses was not a good speaker so Aaron is the one who told the people what God said. Aaron is the one who spoke to Pharoah and called the first three plagues down onto Egypt, not Moses _____So that makes me wonder if because Island Jacob isn't able to speak to the people he requires a spokesman and baby Aaron is that spokesman.

That's my take on the subject of the Bible and it's relationship to LOST.

Thanks again for all you do Mac!

I hate to post before reading all the comments but I've only made it through the first 100 and I haven't seen it mentioned yet. What do you think of the rescue "photo" that was shown at the press conference?

I can't decide if I think it was (1) fabricated by Oceanic, (2) if it was staged by the O6 to legitimize their cover up story, or (3) if it was genuinely taken when the O6 washed ashore somewhere.

The thing that concerns me though is that Kate, Sayid, and Jack are all wearing different clothes than in last night's episode and given what we've seen so far about their impending departure from the island, it does not appear that they will have much opportunity to change their clothes before being "rescued."

Other concern is the raft did not look like the one Sayid and Dan were using.

Any thoughts?

Moving the island would explain why they were never able to go back and save any of the other survivors, but the island was hard to find from the start, and then to move would probably make it impossible. Going way back, I�ve never been able to understand why (in last season�s finale), Kate was so AGAINST going back to the island when Jack suggested it. Okay, I wouldn�t be on the phone chartering a boat myself, but there always seemed to be so much more behind her resistance. By the way, am I the only one wondering where the pilot of the cargo plane found the rabbit for extract that foot? Kidding! About Jin being a goner, Lilo, I�m not convinced that was a real grave. Nobody really dies on Lost. Except Artz. It would be hard for him to come back from that one!

Sorry, didn't mean to say "but the island", I meant "because the island."

There's been a lot of downer talk about last night�s episode. Actually, I think it was great. In fact I think all but two eps this season have been outstanding. (The two stinkers were Kate's Trial and Jack Pops the Question to Kate). Even with the flash forwards, I'm still blown away each week with the amount of new twists... Alex getting blown away? Christian and Clair in Jacob's cabin? Ben's time travels? Now we get a new station-- cool, I love new stations, even if it only lasts one episode. (except the tempest- that one didn't amount to much)

It�s just like Lost to lull us into a false sense of security, like we think we can actually predict what is going to happen. And this time they�ve even added flash forwards to make us feel soooo confident� and then they are going to pull the rug out from under us.

We still have no idea what happens-- to the island, to the non-06 people... and what happened that makes the 06 concoct their lies, torments some of them to madness, and makes them want to come back?

I'm looking forward to one of those you-just-couldn't-predict-it plot twists coming up in two weeks.

(I hope)

Pt. 2 or 3 will rewind Pt. 1

After lurking, reading the great McJacob recaps and in particular, the posts today, we're being righteously set up for the two hour finale.

The O6 plane flight, press conference sequences (not escape) were so over the top it had to be an abborition or dream. Probably Hurleys since (his) contained all the detail. Swear I saw Tommy Chong at the party.

Horace's flawed upload of his Youtube video last week finally introduced the third script variable. We've got the the Flashback, Flashforward, and now the Flashf*&^ed up DVD you rented from Blockbuster in Season 2.

The Landing/Press Conference had better be a setup for the sake of the writers rep. Gawd,had to be!

I'd love to see them tweak my Bailey Wick and "replay" the landing/press conference in either pt. 2 or 3 in high drama.

Hey, guys and gals, I just remembered something from Season 3 that's been bothering me. Desmond told Charlie that he could "see" Claire and Aaron leaving the island on a helicopter, but no Charlie (leading to Charlie's fateful Looking Glass mission). Now that we're just about at helicopter time, it sure doesn't look like Claire's going to be on the chopper, now does it?

Wait, who are the Oceanic 6 again? Oh sorry, I already put my choco foot in my mouth on that one.

@153 bcre8ve
Nurse: Doctor, we need you, stet.
Doctor: Calm down, you're too hyphen.
Nurse: But he has a bullet wound near his spine!
Doctor: It's OK, I'll just make a backslash.

Congratulations, Cecil Rose, the bloggers chorused.

On a more serious note, too bad one of the reporters wasn't one Frederick J. Flintstone, who would have asked,
"Who's baby is that? What's your angle? I'll buy that."

@ Ealgumby and undaunted

I feel the same way about how we are being pulled along this� string� of seemingly �Unitarian� view of the mythology in Lost. I believe we all come from quite different backgrounds, and yet we can relate to certain theologian aspects in the show. But I guess if we were to take a wider view of our own beliefs, we can see the similarities between the monotheistic (and indeed most religious/cultural/�Jedi� viewpoints) religions, they are after all derived from the same essential mythology. Omnipotent power, fallen man, renegade angel and so forth�

�I assume that the writers' assume (probably correctly) that there are so many literary/theological/philosophical/other references in the show, that the average viewer will "connect" with those familiar to them, and the rest will be ignored.�

I don�t think the rest need be ignored very one can find something in these stories. I myself, as an atheist, not without moral values if not took literally.

�I have been hoping they would refine their "view" at some point, to allow more in-depth discussion of the issues at hand, but am now convinced more than ever that will never happen.�

There are a lot of subtle issues which, though they may not address explicitly, carry heavy philosophical/moral implications. I�ll try to give a few brief examples keeping clear of any specific belief.

- The functioning of a society, �free� of any law. Relating to the 815ers when they first reached the island; imagine yourself on the island. What do you believe would have been in your own best interest to survive? Hoard essential supplies like Sawyer (selfish behaviour)? Hunt for the sake of the group like many of the others (altruistic behaviour)? Or depend on the contribution of the group like some have (helpless behaviour)?
- The idea of risking oneself for the sake of others. Its interesting, in a real life sense, that if one were really in Jack�s, or John�s or whomever�s situation, that they would be so willing to risk their own life for going overboard in protecting the others. WHY go out in search of Walt, or Claire etc�, since you are in that position of responsibility of a group of people, should you risk your life and the potential well being of so many for the sake of one OR a few?! It seems contradictory, but the foundation of society and our evolution depend on such ideas�
- Conflict and forgiveness. I can�t remember who said this in a previous season, think it was Des; �You killed more of them than they have of you� to which one of the 815ers replied: �yeah, but, they started it.� I�m of Palestinian origin, so I�m honestly pretty tired of this mentality. If we confine ourselves to the mistakes of the past, then we are doomed to repeat those mistakes. What does it take to put the past behind us and build anew? A new enemy? A common goal? I think both of these are being explored in Lost.
- Last point I�ll mention: Free Will. I believe this �idea� of free will is a real misconception among people these days. Take a moment to try to define Free Will for yourself and what it means to you� You probably came up with something like: �the ability to make a choice/decision without the restrictions of consequence or necessity�. Whatever you define it as, your probably wrong. True �Free Will� cannot (or for the sake of debate; should not) exist. Will or Willingness is what you choose to do; I �will� to eat/sleep/drink, I �will� to watch tv/blog etc� �Will� is a power or ability. Just as �freedom�. What is freedom? Really? �So far as man has the power to think, or not to think. Move, or not to move, according to the preference of his own mind; so far is a man free.� So to ask: does the power or ability of �will� have the power, or ability, of �freedom� is absurd. One power has no other power. Only �agents� have power or ability. Locke gives this example (I hope it clarifies�): �A tennis ball, whether it be in motion or at rest, is not by anyone taken to be a �free agent�. If we inquire into the reason, we shall find it is because we conceive not a tennis ball to think, and consequently not to have any preference of motion or rest, and therefore has not liberty, is not a �free agent�; but all its both motion and rest, come under our idea of necessary, and are so called.� �Perhaps I could have supplied a better example� Do you get the meaning? There�s a lot more to �Free Will�, books are written on the subject. But it is certainly one for debate.

Which is one of the aspects I appreciate about Lost; the ability to allow people to really question these types of moral and philosophical points, and put themselves in some of their shoes? That and some of the science-y stuff which I like. I am always up for a debate on these types of topics, which intrigue me a lot more than some of the other questions which I find myself all too often spending time pondering; details, which I find we all come here every day in search for answers but really, don�t want any. Sooner all later well know what happens to the characters, their relationships, the island etc� but the �real� questions probably wont be answered in the show.

Sorry If I bored anyone who read this, I realise now its quite long�

When they move the island, the GPS explosive device that the head mercenary is wearing will fail to trigger ...

/Damian

Well it seems as though Ben's self-doubt and self-pity lasted all of about one episode. Ben's back to screwing with Locke's head big time, I'm curious as to how Jack (w/Sawyer), Hurley (w/Ben and Locke) and Kate and Sayid ( Captured by Richard and the Other Army.) are going to reunite with Sun and Aaron but not without taking anyone else with them. My guess is that the Oceanic 6 are evacuated with more to come but Locke then swtiches the Space-Time Modulator and "poof" the island disappears to only to reemerge somewhere else on Planet Earth.

I have to agree with the whole Sun taking over Daddy's Empire plot twist. No financial settlement is so big that you could use it to take over another company, particularly in South Korea where the big companies are huge and make everything and are in bed with the government. So unless Sun has a Sugar Daddy bankrolling her such as Charles Widmore or perhaps Ben Linus this plot twist needs clarification.

I did enjoy this season (and also Mac's reviews) very much. Thx, Mac.

Regarding the Lost story, I can't get rid of the feeling that we just have to put together a couple clues from the last seasons in order to see the big picture:

- did anybody else read Walt's original comic book?
- in the original hatch, there were some very strange symbols shown before it exploded (I don't think this was Dharma l33t sp34k!)
- some people on the island don't seem to age at all
- some dead people keep walking around
- Locke is able to walk again since the crash
- the island can move (like a space ship? -- someone else already came up with this idea...)
- aliens could have advanced technology which enables them to travel in time
- the smoke monster could also be alien technology or even an alien itself
=> I don't think that the Dharma people could develop such kind of technology
=> there are scientist studying this technology (men of science) and believers who seem to have a religious connection to it (men of faith)

All these clues lead me to believe that the big picture of the Lost story has to involve aliens or at least alien technology.

Am I the only one who thinks that Sun's "other person who killed Jin" is Sun herself? She's blaming herself for everything she did to Jin - having an affair, causing her dad to transfer Jin from factory manager to hit man, planning to leave him, etc. She's angry at herself, but taking it all out on her dad.

@208 Margo:
Intelligent aliens would be a dissapointment to me. I'd prefer Smokey, the sonic fense, the hatches, stations, etc to be future earth technology, brought back by the time travelling Others, or the entity that is/represents the Island itself. Also, the 4 toed statue could be a remnant of a post-apocalyptic society, from like 2000 years in the future. When we saw the statue, it had a Planet ot Apes feel to me.

I understand and agree with most of the negative remarks I've read. Then again, we should also consider our level of investment in this show. Come on, we're addicts. We've spent so much time on this thing, that we can't afford to be dissapointed.

We should distance ourselves just a little bit. Keep watching, enjoying and discussing it. But always keep in mind that it is a tv show. It is not your life and will not give you answers that will change the way you look at stuff. It's just entertainment. Don't take it too seriously, you know? Play outside more :)

A couple people have mentioned the rescue photo the "fisherman" took. I'm not sure if anyone's posted it, but I will just for good measure:

http://tinyurl.com/3qfjgp

And someone said they couldn't see Sun in the picture. She's there. On the other side of Kate. I'm assuming that's not Kate's arm swinging out in front of her because that would be a freakishly long arm and she should be holding Aaron.

GRAA, Mac! I've been a devoted reader to this blog for years now and - like the others here (posters, not the Island people) - I consider it an essential add-on to my Lost Experience! I love to read all the comments here, a great mix of intelligence and humor. Lovely :).

While there are some people here wondering about how it is strange that Claire's mother has awoken from a coma, nobody seems to be asking the question: IS CLAIRE'S MOTHER EVEN REAL? I don't think so. I really think she might be an apparition, the Island course correcting and trying to influence Jack into returning to the island. Saving his friends or whatever his purpose is.

Any opinions on this?

@ 208/ Margot
- did anybody else read Walt's original comic book?
Yes, it was Hurleys on the plane.
- in the original hatch, there were some very strange symbols shown before it exploded (I don't think this was Dharma l33t sp34k!)
I translated the symbols to say, "He escapes the place of Death."
- some people on the island don't seem to age at all
True
- some dead people keep walking around
True
- Locke is able to walk again since the crash
Apparently true
- the island can move (like a space ship? -- someone else already came up with this idea...)
unknown
- aliens could have advanced technology which enables them to travel in time
Yes, a possibility to explain story premise like the Atlantis theories
- the smoke monster could also be alien technology or even an alien itself
Maybe, I am leaning toward Death from the Gates of Hell demon spirit
=> I don't think that the Dharma people could develop such kind of technology
unknown, but the Orchid was functioning before the Purge and at that point Dharma was in control of the island
=> there are scientist studying this technology (men of science) and believers who seem to have a religious connection to it (men of faith)
It is possible that the same technology/event can have two wildly different interpretations, even within the science or faith communities . . . and leading to outright war between them (see, Middle East history).

@ all re: 305 bearing
Looking at Faraday's notebook, the explanation that everyone is taking bearing 305 to and from the freighter is that once you hit the barrier, you invert to a heading of 130. I guess it would be like putting a mark on the outside of gym sock then pulling it inside out.

@ all re: where the show is going
I think the biggest issue of the show going forward is that the underlying premise of the show is being kept secret from the audience. The longer the foundational premise remains hidden, the more speculation and doubt arises in the fan base. If the producers are holding back to the final show for the reveal in order to have their story not analyzed, then that is a dangerous mistake. At this point, if the show premise is that there is a controlled worm hole, time travel alien technology device, or a Dr. Who telephone booth . . . it really should not matter because the focus is still on the characters, their emotions, motivations, morals and choices.

@210. Posted by: Robislost

Enjoy the ride, and not the destination?

Yeah - keeping some perspective is not all that bad!

I feel like everyone's (or just some are) beginning to lose faith.

DON'T LOSE FAITH!

If you lose faith in the island, the island loses faith in you.

... in this case, the show.

I personally thought last night's epsisode was amazing.

I still have faith in the writers. I think they'll make the finale, and the next two seasons even better than the past two, and they will end it with a BANG that will totally be worth it at the end.

@213. Posted by: welh

I disagree with you - the mysterious premise is what keeps the show interesting. If they reveal too early, everything after is just fluff.

Call it the Twin Peaks lesson. After you found out who killed Laura Palmer, there just wasn't all that much to keep you going.

While I hope there will be a great payoff in terms of resolving the mystery of the island, I'm not all that worried about the solution. Anticipation is always half the fun, and answers seldom live up to the adventure and intrigue involved in the question itself.

In the off season, for those of you who have not had the chance, check out the classic series "The Prisoner", which clearly has influenced Lost in all sorts of ways.

When they wrapped this show up, large portions of the fans were pissed off at how it was handled. They wanted a nice narrative resolution, but this was not what McGoohan had in mind.

For me, no matter what the resolution turns out to be, I will remember the times of great challenge and intrigue that Lost provided for me....

@ r-Yawn (212),

That�s an interesting point, quite possible, but we still don�t have any evidence that apparitions are real. Previous examples we�ve seen could have been hallucinations, or manifestations of a guilty conscience. Like Libby to Michael. Or if we take Hurley�s visions of Charlie the same thing could be said� except when they first meet on the bench in the facility�s park after he gets admitted to the hospital. If you recall, Charlie was sitting on the bench when one of Hurley�s fellow �crazies� (Lewis) tells him someone (Charlie) is staring. I think because Lewis is able to �see� him, we have to accept that a physical manifestation of Charlie was there. I�m not sure if it�s smokey or a holographic message from the island, that part is still up in the air. So I�m not sure it is an apparition, I�m willing to believe it was really her.

But I agree, that it could very well be a �course correction and trying to influence Jack into returning to the island.� Here revelation of Claire�s relation to Jack seemed too bizarre. Weak writing? Or deliberate lack of subtlety on destiny�s part? �Wake up Claire�s mum (I forgot her name) you have work to do.� And like a zombie she gets up to tell Jack... I won�t be surprised if she dropped dead just outside!! Haha

@ Notsoeasy (211,)

�I'm assuming that's not Kate's arm swinging out in front of her because that would be a freakishly long arm and she should be holding Aaron.�

I looked at the pic again, and you appear correct. But considering Aaron has a big melon head, and the six of them would be exhausted, I can�t see why Kate isn�t using BOTH arms to carry Aaron. I still don�t think she�s carrying Aaron, I don�t think any of them are. We can see one of the arm�s of each of the survivors (both of Sayids�). The guy Jack is looking at; is it just me or are his legs a heck of a lot darker than his arms. Is it cause of the shade? I don�t know� The guy behind him pulling the boat has his leg half in the shade of the boat, and you can still tell that he�s the same all round.

@205 Apollo shot:
"True �Free Will� cannot (or for the sake of debate; should not) exist."

Interesting thoughts. Seems to me it fits into the man of science/man of faith debate.

@212 r-Yawn breathed:
Is Claire's mother real?

I had the same thought that she was probably an apparition. But I suppose the island could have healed her if it had work for Jack to do (i.e., raise Aaron).

About Jin: I'm beginning to think that Jin is really dead. There has to be a reason for the "contrived" addition of two people who survived the crash just to have them die later of their injuries. Why would they invent those two people?

To explain their bodies being transported back to the real world. Jin is one of those 2 bodies; I don't know who the other one is yet.

That explains the cargo crew person we can barely see sitting away from the survivors. It also explains why cargo door was used, rather than the passenger door, for the survivor's exit from the plane. The cargo door opened because there was cargo: Two coffins.

I think Sun gained controlling interest in her father's company not to have the resources to find her husband, but because she is pissed off that her husband is DEAD, because she knows that makes her father happy, because it was her father's actions that put Sun & Jin on that plane, So her motivation is to permanently wipe that smug look off his face.

jam/194:

I agree! Sawyer gets off the island. But I don't think he gets off with the survivors. He will arrive later. He has to because I think it is he and Kate who are supposed to be Aaron's guardians.

LOST is about a war for control of that island. It's been going on for a very long time with preiods here and there of peace. Our Lostees literally fell in mid-battle and now, whether they like it or not, are drafted into the fight. It is all about securing that island so Aaron can be returned to it safely so he can act as Jacob's spokesman.

There will be no peace for any of the survivors until they acquiesce to their new roles. That doesn't mean they have to return to the island right now. It means they have to make peace with the fact that they will be called back. They can't rush to go back; it won't work. They can't escape it, that won't work. They just have to live their lives and be prepared to go when they are called. And when they are called, the path back will be opened to them.

Don't push the river, it flows by itself.

Apollo:

Poor Claire's mom walks outside the funeral service and is ... hit by a car!

Your work is done Claire's mom. Thank you for serving.

219. Posted by: undaunted

Jin is not one of the 2 who supposedly died on the island...Sun said at the news conference that he never made it off the plane.

I do think you are right about the takeover though. What better way to hurt daddy than in the pocketbook.

Re: Sun having enough money to buy 51% of Paik Inustries.

In addition the the settlement money, maybe Hurley gave her his lotto winnings. He has said on multiple occasions that he didn't want the money.

surefoot/222:

Ok. It does make sense that it isn't Jin, because why not just say he survived the crash and then died? Maybe there is a reason for the deception. I don't know.

But I do think that there are two coffins on that cargo plane and I wonder who (or maybe even what) is inside them.

I thought Parvati was one of the Oceanic 6?

Wow! I just got through all the posts! Everyone has commented on all the points I wanted to mention. I am looking forward to the filling in of the gaps between where they are now on the island and when they finally get of. There are definitley decsions that will be made which seal the fate for some and let others be free.

I would hate to see the non-Oceanic characters go by the wayside. Desmond and Juliet's stories need to be followed through on as well. What becomes of Juliet's sister and her kid? How about Penny?

Personally, I didn't enjoy this episode a whole lot. Maybe I am just too consumed with Prison Break now. Only a couple more episodes to go on that, and then I'll refocus on the last few episodes here and catch up.

Congrats to Cecil Rose. For some reason I had you pictured as a skinny guy in his thirties or forties - wow though, 32 years!!!

In a FF, Jin is seen buying a stuffed animal, presumably for Sun's newborn, but the woman in the hospital is not Sun, so maybe he is alive. I do not assume ANYTHING in this show which is one of the greatest things about it. We, the viewing audience, are the ones that are truly lost and there are very few places I'd rather be!

Daniel�s reaction to learning that Keamy had initiated the �Secondary Protocol� indicated that the island would be destroyed, so he and Charlotte had to get to the freighter. I found it curious that Dan would know about the protocol, but Charlotte didn�t, and would guess that Dan�s knowledge comes from fuzzy time-travel memories (hence the notebook with the Orchid logo sketch).

@Mike/6: �They can't be trying to destroy the island since they're not planning on leaving and mercenaries don't do suicide missions.�

As for Keamy�s underarm detonator and stockpile of Acme explosives, was that his idea alone and not part of the protocol? A little insurance policy so the folks on the freighter don�t leave him behind?

Maybe the detonator not only monitors Keamy for a pulse, but also monitors the location of the ship. If the ship travels out of range, it could also trigger the explosion.

But he didn�t tell anyone it was there, so he�s not using it as a threat. Or not yet. I think the crazy SOB is really planning to destroy the island and the freighter. I�m not clear if he has an exit strategy (Orchid wormhole) or if it�s a suicide mission, but I wouldn�t discount that possibility, as we don�t know if he�s just following orders or has another motivation.

@@@@@@@@@

This theory may be a bit out there, but what if we find out that Kate's baby isn't really hers and it is the same Aaron that Claire had on the island? Maybe there is only one baby Aaron!?!?! That would be crazy, but I have a feeling that in the finale we'll find out that Kate's baby Aaron is actually the same baby Aaron that Claire gave birth to.

Big shout out to Ilovebenlinusxxx, her list, her evil smiley face, and her Photoshop love.

Peace... Namaste... Naysayer out!

@@@@@@@@

@shikotee: (because he wants to be a ninja) and
@LostedIt/36: �How is Ben going to overpower the mercenaries senseless without his Jedi beat-down stick?�

I didn�t even notice Ben �passing the baton� to Locke until my second viewing. And then I saw this great screencap over at DarkUFO:

http://tinyurl.com/485fqe

I�m not saying I believe it for sure, but looks like that could be the baton next to Jack�s head in the first scene of the pilot when Jack wakes up in the jungle after the crash. Theory is that Jack may be returning to the island to relive his experience (a do-over). Maybe an example of �looping� (see Cecil�s Lost Book Review: �The Invention of Morel� under the Random Topic thread).

Crazy, man.

? 223. Posted by: Not That Ben
In addition the the settlement money, maybe Hurley gave her his lotto winnings. He has said on multiple occasions that he didn't want the money.
- - - -
And who is to say that the other OA6 did not toss 10 or 20 mil in to the pot to help Sun grab a controlling interest. May Team Widmore or Team Linus has made a large anonymous to Team Kwon to toss Paik to the curb???

Maybe families from the missing OA300+ put a mil or two from their settlements against Paik... on Sun's word, of course, that things were not as they seemed.

Long time reader. First time poster.

I hesitate to criticize the Lost writers, as they are clearly geniuses. However, here's a line I would have LOVED to have heard when Sun didn't need to translate for Michael on the freighter:

"YOU SPEAK ENGLISH TOO?!"

The moment when Michael learned that Sun spoke English was one of the funniest Lost moments ever in my book.

? 223. Posted by: Not That Ben
In addition the the settlement money, maybe Hurley gave her his lotto winnings. He has said on multiple occasions that he didn't want the money.
- - - -
PLUS. Sun did not go to Hurley's surprise birthday, BUT... we did see (later?) Hurley go to visit Sun in Korea and he visited Jin's tombstone with her. That suggests an alliance... but he was the only one. Perhaps she fell out of favor with the other OA6/OA300+... because of the money they invested.

I wondered why Sun even bothered with taking control of her father's company. Didn't she hate that business? Doesn't she know it is involved with illegal activities and is dangerous? Why would she put her self in a position where she might endanger her baby, and involve herself more with her father's life?

In an attempt to answer my own questions, maybe her father isn't really the motive. Maybe Paik Industries (or whatever it is called) plays a deeper role in island related affairs.

@Naysayer - that's a ridiculous theory about Aaron. They can't be the same baby. Claire's baby had a turnip head!

AND... Sun goes to minority shareholders in Paik Corp. and tells them (solicits)... "You know all of those shares you bought 20 years ago for $5 dollars each, that are now worth $50 dollars each... yeah... well... I have info that will make them worthless if 'xx-yy-zz' data gets publicized... so, in good faith... I will take them off your hands for $10 dollars." ???

(fez says) I say good-day sir!

Clementine/230:

I saw that screencap at DarkUFO too. I watched episode 1 again; sure enough...black baton like thing right there on the ground next to Jack. He could easily have moved his arm a bit and picked it up while still laying where he landed. Landed, by the way, in the same psotion...flat on his back arms outstretched, as Ben landed in the Sahara.

I dunno...crazy, man? I'll say!
_________________

Pat Cleary/227:

Jin picking up that panda was a flash back. It preceded Sun giving birth by a couple of years; he was delivering it to a Chinese business associate of Mr. Paik. Jin told the nurse at the hospital that he was a newly wed.
__________________

With regard to Sun's financing her purchase of controlling interest of her father's company: vacc @147 offers a credible explanation of how she might have managed it. She didn't have to buy 51%; she could have pulled it off by purchasing far less...read #147.

? 234. Posted by: meg
... that's a ridiculous theory about Aaron. They can't be the same baby. Claire's baby had a turnip head!
- - - -
MIFIMH (MIF In My Heart).
Anyone watch "Family Guy"? Obnoxious FOX cartoon, at best. Little tiny baby character "Stewie" always has a brutal, internal monologue going about how he is going to conquer the world, subjegate everyone to his myopic view, never wavers from his desires... unless an infantile need (diaper/food) changes things... That is how I see Aaron. A little 'dictator-in-waiting' hanging around for the stars and moon to align so he can fulfill his destiny/fate on the island, as Jacob's replacement.

I loved the ending to this episode. They even mixed the happy/danger songs for it and it was amazing.

Pt. 2 and 3.

Wow... Richard A., John and Ben L., all together at the Orchid...

I'm thinking they might scrape together a cliffhanger for us slobbering addicts.

What are you guys' talking about??? Aaron that's with Kate is Claire's baby and not her baby..we know that already..

? 229. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 17, 2008 3:54 PM
This theory may be a bit out there, but what if we find out that Kate's baby isn't really hers and it is the same Aaron that Claire had on the island? Maybe there is only one baby Aaron!?!?! That would be crazy, but I have a feeling that in the finale we'll find out that Kate's baby Aaron is actually the same baby Aaron that Claire gave birth to.

Big shout out to Ilovebenlinusxxx, her list, her evil smiley face, and her Photoshop love.

Peace... Namaste... Naysayer out!

? 234. Posted by: meg
... that's a ridiculous theory about Aaron. They can't be the same baby. Claire's baby had a turnip head!

huh?

@240 Posted by: KSR

Yes... and finally a definitive answer to Aaron.

My current Camaro odometer reading...

052908

@unladenswallow/207: �Locke then switches the Space-Time Modulator and "poof" the island disappears�

Locke takes the elevator to the Orchid Island Mover basement workshop, the doors open, and there stands Marvin the Martian, in a Roman centurion outfit and basketball shoes.

MARVIN: �Give me that, earthling! You are making me very angry. Very angry, indeed!�

LOCKE: �What? This?� holding up Ben�s telescoping baton.

MARVIN: �Oh, goodie, after two thousand years of research, time to use the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space-Time Modulator!�

LOCKE: �What are you doing?� as the cartoon martian snatches the device.

MARVIN: �It�s quite simple. I�m going to move the island.�

A tunneling mound of dirt enters stage left, and up pops BUGS BUNNY #15: �Eh, what�s up, Doc? Pardon me for boddering ya, but did you say you was gonna move the island?�

Up pops another BUNNY: �Eh, what�s up, Doc?� And another, �Eh, what�s up, Doc?�

MARVIN throws the Modulator at rabbits, Locke dives for cover, the sky goes purple, and... nothing.

MARVIN: "Where is the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!�

LOCKE: �Well, back to the old drawing board.�

@@@@@@@@@

MEG! I think we might be on to something... possibly a huge clue to many mysteries... unlocking secrets and discovering truths - finally! It makes me wonder if Kate realizes that she actually didn't give birth to him? She might be totally oblivious to the fact that he is really Claire's son!?!? Maybe... maybe not, I guess we'll find out in upcoming episodes... !?!?

Mr_Naysayer

@@@@@@@@

Foreshadowing - when Sawyer says to Jack...something like...getting off the island, why do you want to do that so badly, you are beginning to sound like a broken record.

hmmm...why all this sudden discussion about turnip head???

DMIB

Another rainy weekend here. Thank goodness for mac�s Lost Blog!

******************************************

@RONB/3: Smart, odd, interesting people... for sure ;)

******************************************

@Scooby/54: �Will we finally see the Orchid video and confirm that it's canon? If so, can we refer to season 4 as wabbit season?� GROAN/chuckle :)

******************************************

@PiecesofArzt/56: �There is a big red button labeled "Press Here To Move The Island" (Austin Powers-style)Even Locke can get that!�

Reminded me of this quote from Ben to Locke:
"So, tell me John. How do you expect to pilot our submarine? I mean, it's a complicated piece of machinery. You don't just press 'Submerge'."

******************************************

@dharmaboy/70: �and did the scene with the view from inside the Coast Guard transport (as the cargo bay opened) remind anybody of the climatic scene from "Close Encounters"?�

and Cecil/84: �The opening of the C-130 cargo ramp was a little bogus. They�ve got a nice passenger door right behind the cockpit, complete with steps.�

But then we wouldn�t have this foreboding screencap: http://tinyurl*com/3l4orp

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@lovelost/98: �What's up with the box that Ben dug up? A mirror, binocs and .... saltines?�

My first thought was an homage to the concept of the �magic box.� A little something for everybody: Mirror for Ben, binoculars for Locke, and snacks for Hurley. The island granting their unconscious wish ;)

But probably just standard Dharma protocol to have lookout stations (during the time of war with the Hostiles).

******************************************

Wait, did someone say Charlie was humping the Dharma shark? I know it must get lonely down at the Looking Glass, but geez... cheeky little bugger ;)

******************************************

@Jin�s Flashlight/154: �I thought that the future flashes after the initial landing/press conference were intentionally meant to parody soap operas.�

Maybe. But as an insider joke, or relevant to the overall plot? Is this future a reality, or is it all a dream made up by crazy Hurley (who, I�m guessing, watched a lot of soaps at Santa Rosa.) I know we tackled this before; just came to mind when I read your post.

******************************************

@Gabriel/161/163: re the other person on the plane

http://tinyurl*com/6guq6k

That�s MICHAEL! If that�s not Michael, I�ll eat Claire�s wig! And it�s Michael in the coffin. That�s my far-out theory of the day.

******************************************

@Cecil and Mrs. Rose: Felicitations and Happy Anniversary!
@Davidrh and Mrs. H: a pre-emptive Happy Anniversary!

And a Thank You to both of the Mesdames for sharing you with us :)

******************************************

@berkyo/183: "I thought the Orchid Logo looked like a mushroom cloud.�
@ealgumby/185: �Actually, it looks like a flower.�

I think it looks a little like Paik�s company logo (or vice-versa):

http://tinyurl*com/4vpof5
http://tinyurl*com/3t6az6

******************************************

@undaunted/197: �I don't think for a minute there will be angels and Eden and satan. But I do think that if we know the stories we can apply what we know to LOST and have a revelation...no pun intended.� Agreed.

and Apollo/205: I so appreciate your thoughts. A few of my favorite Lost quotes:
Penny to Des: �Because all we need to survive is one person who truly loves us.�
Eko to Yemi-Monster: �I did not ask for the life that I was given. But it was given, nonetheless. And with it... I did my best.�
Locke (despondent at the hatch, after Boone�s fatal fall): �I've done everything you wanted me to do. So why did you do this to me? WHY??�

******************************************

It�s so annoying when people credit themselves with getting predictions right, so you should all just skip over this next part:

Way back somewhere I predicted they would get rescued on Day 108! Woo-hoo for me! I�m so smart! I�m sure no one else thought of that before me! Me, me, me!

And now back to semi-literate commentary...

******************************************

Random rabbit-foot sighting alert! I bet BunnyLover is calling PETA right now ;)

******************************************

Frogurt/201 said: �There's been a lot of downer talk about last night�s episode.�

On a lighter note, anyone watch SNL? I love Debbie Downer:
��By the way, it's official... I can't have children!"
�"Feline AIDS is the #1 killer of domestic cats."
�"Slather up the sunscreen... I had a mole looked at recently and the doctor told me that due to the extent of its irregular borders, I'm flirting with a melanoma."

WAH, Wah.

******************************************

@r-Yawn/212: �Is Claire�s mother even real?� Great question. I�m starting to wonder if the whole off-island storyline is even real.

******************************************

@smitty/225: �I thought Parvati was one of the Oceanic 6?� She reminds me of Nikki, so hopefully she�s 6 feet under!

******************************************

@KSR/240: No way that baby is Claire�s. That�s crazy. Totally different baby, dude.

IheartMyNaysayer...xoxo

DMIB

Hey, I think the URL blocker is back up and running! Mac, if you have my first post in the queue, you can delete it! Thanks!

If anyone is trying to use the URLs in my post, don't forget to replace the (*) with a period.

Namaste ;)

@Clementine - What is this "rain" thing you speak of??? My house/yard is dried up, dead, and brown. Surrounded by wildfires!! send it to Florida!!!

@Meg: Lows in the 40s, highs in the 50s, and water falling straight down from the sky! I'm sending a wish to the magic box, "Go South to Meg! Go South to Meg!"

p.s. When you open the box, be careful of the lightning.

Did kate overhear the conversation between Jack and Claire's mom? It looked like she might have, but I couldn't tell.

@Clementine - 40's and 50's ??? Are you in freakin' Alaska??!! A "cold" day here is the low 80's.. It's so freakin' hot, I can't stand it!! I am still waiting for winter to come. My kids have never even seen snow, and Santa can't get in with no fireplace...:)

I'll send some of my heat up your way, but you need to be sensitive as well, 'cause some of us live in an OVEN!!!

wishing I was North!!!

MIF! Paging MIF! Your services are needed...

vacc just posted a new photo caption!

Get over there quick!

Thanks Clementine...you'll always be my favorite blogess!!! :)

Now, back to Scofield!!

? 28. Posted by: taylor0822
"Worst line: "John, how many times do I have to tell you, I always have a plan." Tell that to Alex, you bug-eyed freak."

Oh, Ben had a plan for saving Alex, all right. It wasn't a very good plan, but he did have one.

And so far, it looks like his plan for taking care of the mercs is at about the same level of genius.

I finally got caught up with the posts!

Not even in trouble with the misses. You can do that after 40 years.

Congratulations to Cecil ! and great review of Morel !

I think that one of the 2 survivors was the Marshal. Kate would have had a hard time saving all those people in the water with handcuffs on. He would have lived long enough to take the cuffs off.

I also think the flash forwards were unreal. And just a projection of what could have happened but didn�t cause the island did some very funny things when they moved it.

@28
Worst line: "John, how many times do I have to tell you, I always have a plan." Tell that to Alex, you bug-eyed freak.

HILARIOUS!!! :p

Great episode & review!!!

@ Meg (#251)

I was wondering what people thought about that too. The first time I watched it I wasn't sure, but the second time I thought she definitely did overhear. My husband disagrees.

@ notsoeasy (#211)

I agree that couldn�t be Kate�s arm. But it might belong to someone other than Sun. Sun and Aaron are the only two of the O6 not readily visible in that picture. Since we know at the end of the Finale Part 1 that Sun & Aaron were on the freighter and the other 4 were still on the island. Perhaps the picture was taken before Sun & Aaron met up with the other four.

I have looked at the picture of the O6 riding in the back of the Coast Card plane and I can't see the mysterious "other" person that keeps being mentioned. Is there any way someone could circle that part of the picture or something? Is anyone else not seeing this? Or is it me? Maybe it's just getting late.

Clementine/246: "I�m starting to wonder if the whole off-island storyline is even real." and SamFin/256: "I also think the flash forwards were unreal. And just a projection of what could have happened but didn�t cause the island did some very funny things when they moved it."

I like that line of thought, especially as it seems to explain such a large series of awkward events. It would also be the ultimate response to those viewers who believe that the writers have suddenly turned careless or lazy.

Last year's finale, "Through the Looking Glass", completely flipped the Lost story telling paradigm from flashbacks to flashforwards. One of the key plot points occurred at the radio tower just after Locke shot Naomi and as Jack prepared to use her sat phone and contact the freighter. While Locke backed off his threat to shoot Jack, his message was clear: "We're not supposed to do this".

The Lewis Carroll book, "Through the Looking Glass", is not a sequel to Alice in Wonderland, but instead takes many of the same characters and settings and stands them on their head, creating a kind of mirror image of the original book.

From Wikipedia: "uses frequent changes in time and spatial directions as a plot device, and ...in it, there are many mirror themes, including opposites, time running backwards, and so on."

As in the first book, it ends with Alice waking up, and the events that have happened to her are clearly identified as a dream.

This year's season finale, "There's no Place Like Home", borrows the famous line from the Wizard of Oz.

In Baum's original book, Dorothy does in fact visit Oz, i.e. it is a real place and contains real characters. The phrase "There's no Place Like Home" contains no real significance- it is used only once, as an off-hand remark by Dorothy early in the book to describe why she loves Kansas.

The movie version, though, clearly indicates that Dorothy's visit to Oz is a dream, a result of her being injured in the tornado. Almost all of her backstory in that first black and white 15 minutes is not in the book and was created for the movie to firmly establish Dorothy's reality in Kansas.

In the movie, the central plot of the ruby slippers, the trip to see the Wizard, and the killing of the Wicked Witch is more of a decoy or maguffin than anything else- it is the phrase "There's no Place Like Home" that contains the powerful magic that awakens Dorothy from her dream and returns her to reality.

If the flash-forwards are not entirely "real", it would be a mirror image of the Alice and Dorothy stories where the island was real, and the return to reality and home the dream.

That would go a long way to explain why so many of the post rescue events seem almost "soap opera perfect" and idealized, and why characters such as Jack and Hurley are first haunted and then breaking down mentally- they are the ones of the Oceanic 6 closest to "waking up", i.e. returning to the reality of the Island.

@175 ealgumby remembered:

>>@Cecil Rose/171
>>"C-130's normally carry at least one enlisted crew member in addition to the pilots, and that crew designation is 'loadmaster', so perhaps that's who's there, if anyone."

>Quite true, although the thing I noticed (having taken a few 130 flights) was the lack of noise in the plane's cargo hold ... in reality, the prop noise is simply deafening!

Oh, absolutely. There�s a scene in �Raid on Entebbe�, a retelling of the Israeli rescue of hostages from Uganda�s capital airport, where, the raid over, the raiding party and most of the hostages are flying back to Israel and raid leader Charles Bronson has a tender scene with the dying Yonathan. He whispers reassurances to the dying soldier as the whole plane listens in. A tender scene but it cracks me up because, with those four turboprop engines right outside the cargo bay, plus the auxiliary power generator in the wheel well right beside you, the C-130 has to be the noisiest airplane in the Air Force inventory, and you have to place your mouth right next to the ear of the person you�re talking to and shout to be heard at all.

Cecil rose, veteran of all too many flights in C-130 cargo bays, as in �Eh, what�s that you say, sonny?�

O============

@205 Apollo

Not in the least boring and fodder for some fascinating discussion in the of season, so I do hope you stick with us in the random discussion area.

O============

@everybody:

I see a lot of speculation, here and elsewhere, that the others have some sort of mastery over time travel. Probably this has been triggered by the �problems with time� noted and demonstrated by Daniel Faraday involved in traveling to and from the island. While these appear to be real, I don�t think that we�ll find that Ben, or anyone else (Richard, Abbadon, Jacob) has any readily controllable method of time travel. Because, if they did, it would change everything else. How could you sneak a freighter up on the island if you could just zip back in time and thwart the attack by being completely prepared for it. Both for logical reasons in the story itself, and in the logic of the story-writing, I just don�t believe it�s what happening.

That said, one of my own speculations has been dashed by the latest show. I was prepared to think that there was some sort of gateway, that you had to go through, and that it was underwater (hence the submarine), and that the island had no other contact with our reality, save when the control system of the swan hatch broke down (as in Desmond�s failure to enter the code on time that let flight 815 through). But since Sayid and Faraday have both made straight, on-the-surface trips to and from the freighter, I guess that one�s out.

Resume theorizing.

O============

@219 undaunted related:

>That explains the cargo crew person we can barely see sitting away from the survivors. It also explains why cargo door was used, rather than the passenger door, for the survivor's exit from the plane. The cargo door opened because there was cargo: Two coffins.

Then the story would have to be that the 6 brought two dead bodies with them on the raft that they got from the fishing boat wreckage? Somehow I doubt that. And even if so, Jin could not be one of them, since according to the dates on his memorial stone, the 6�s story is that he died in the crash.

O============

@225 smitty brought up the horrifying thought:

>I thought Parvati was one of the Oceanic 6?

Please let her be one of the two that died on the island.

O============

@243 Clementine scripted:

>A tunneling mound of dirt enters stage left, and up pops BUGS BUNNY #15: �Eh, what�s up, Doc? Pardon me for boddering ya, but did you say you was gonna move the island?�

By universal convention, Bug�s first words have to be �I knew I shoulda� taken a left toin at Albuquerque!�

Got your Marvin (my, and Jerry Pournelle�s, favorite WB character) perfect.

Just went back and watched the pilot episode parts one and two today, I believe now that the sounds heard by the castaways in the middle of the first night was the island being moved. I'm guessing that it was done by Ben in order to ensure that no one found the survivors and by extension the Island. This might explain why the Oceanic Six were "rescued" in the Indian Ocean instead of the Pacific Ocean. I think it may have been moved a couple of thousand miles west. This would also explain the cover story of the plane crashing in the wrong ocean.

Following up what other have said, Jack does seem to be lying next to Ben's stick, he also runs by what appears to be one of Christian's white shoes hanging from a tree branch. But most importantly he seems to be expecting the crash scene to be to his right when he emerges from the jungle and seems "surprised" when it isn't there, but then hears it when he moves to his left. Could this be history reoccurring, but slightly differently?

@Michael can't be killed/Keamy's device:

Keamy couldn't kill Michael. So what is Michael's purpose still? I'm pretty sure he dies in the finale, after one last interaction with Walt. Walt is credited for the finale, right?

So if Ben/Alpert know that Michael can't die untill the time is right, maybe they use him to topple Keamy and his explosive device. Michael runs up to Keamy, who tries to activate the device, but can't, because Michael can't die. While caught off guard by this, Keamy's taken down by Locke or someone else. In any case, I have a feeling that Michael is supposed to (help) take Keamy out. Maybe Michael is supposed to die at the hands of Walt, like Locke and Ben had to kill their fathers.
---------------------------------------

@ Baton next to Jack on the beach:

Very intruiging. I'm not sure if it is the baton, but after rewatching the scene, the way Jack is presented, is kind of suspicious. Maybe he has been there before, without knowing it. Kinda reminds me of Roland, the main character in Stephen King's Dark Tower Books (which every living person on earth should definitely read).
---------------------------------------

@ 06 not getting off the Island at all:

The future flashes must be real. Ben went out of his way to visit and recruit Said off Island. I think the FF 06 scenes are real, but the Island's tentacles are definitely reaching out for them, probably because it wants Aaron back.
---------------------------------------

@ What happens to the Mercs when the Island moves:

Maybe only those who are in the Orchid Station or Temple at the time of the moving can survive the Island moving. Maybe everyone else on the Island instantly dies or is lost in time/space (become ghosts) when the Island moves through time and/or space. Ofcourse, that wouldn't make sense, if the Island indeed moved, when Desmond turned the failsafe key a while back.
---------------------------------------
@ 2 people responsible for Jin's death:

Damn, it could be anyone. Most likely, I think, are Jack (making the hard decision to leave Jin and others behind), Locke (moving the Island while he knew that not everyone was saved yet) or Widmore (who sent the Mercs that kill Jin among others. Sun might have learned this from Ben or Alpert. She might actually be working for them in the future)
---------------------------------------
@ 2 other survivors who died post crash:
Totally lost on that one. Need. more. facts.
---------------------------------------
@ Who was in the coffin at the funeral nobody went to?

Could it be Said? The only one waiting for him at his return from the Island was Nadia and she's dead. + He became an assassin, so he wouldn't be socializing much. Maybe, after he's done his job, he bites the bug-eyed bullet. I don't know if it fits with the established timeline though.
---------------------------------------

It seems likely as someone posted earlier and with the Danny featuring prominently in the story-line, that the island may be moved in TIME.

Regarding the explosives on the ship, I think that they were intended for the island, to blow up the island. Wasn't there a reference to that in the secondary plans?

Also, regarding one of the 8 survivors of the crash - part of the faux cover story - wasn't there a prior flash that indicated that Kate's Marshall survived but didn't make it?

Comments?

@ 263. Posted by: Robislost

I don't think it would be Said in the coffin. Jack would have considered Said a friend. I'm not sure of the time frames in Said's FF's, but the services he provides for Ben appear to be involved/required in future plot lines.

But, I do think the probability of Michael being in the coffin have risen! His death seems eminent. I�m not so sure even his mother or Walt would visit him. And he has a problem making friends. I�m preparing to say goodbye to Michael in this seasons finale.

I don't see how they can spend an entire season on how the O6 get back to the island unless - Ben gets off and can't find his way back either. If Sayid is working for Ben, why can't he take them back?

Also, we now know that Jack did know, during Kate's trial, that Aaron was his nephew.

Ben would ALWAYS be able to get back to the island. Don't even go there!! ;)

This season's cliffhanger could involve who is left in control of the island.

If Widmore gains/regains control of the island, Ben could find himself in exile. Future Ben could be using Sayid to find and regain control of the island for himself.

Am I really the only one who is hoping that Ben's "who do you think" partner on the hill is MIKHAIL?

198. Posted by: "old" Christine

You are right, the raft is different. Maybe the helicopter has a raft that they use.

203. Posted by: Neon Leon

Desmond had a lot of visions and I think he figured out he could NOT save Charlie. Since he sooooo desperately wants to get to Penny, I think he may have lied and told Charlie what he thought would make Charlie help him. We did not see that vision, of Claire and the heli, did we? I don't remember it,and we saw all the other visions.

205. Posted by: Apollo

Apollo, you are never boring. Anything to exercise our minds and question what is moral or just,or makes us think, is never boring. What IS amazing, is that these kind of discussions come from the boob tube!! The black whole in our homes where all thought escapes and we become zombies. I love the LOST writers. And maybe "I" would not be as altruistic or brave or heroic as the characters in this show, I would like to think I "Could be".

Play outside more :)
? 210. Posted by: Robislost
It's raining !;)

? 211. Posted by: notsoeasy
And someone said they couldn't see Sun in the picture. She's there. On the other side of Kate.
Thanks for the picture!!! I still don't see her but I see what you are talking about.

? 220. Posted by: undauntedAnd when they are called, the path back will be opened to them.

Yes, and maybe the man of science has to hit bottom before he can truly believe and be of use.

? 228. Posted by: Clementine
I think the crazy SOB is really planning to destroy the island and the freighter.

Well, if he can't get the island for Widmore, he can't let anyone leave to tell the world about the island. And Ben put Michael on the boat to blow it up, So the freighter must be destroyed.

236 - Landed, by the way, in the same position...flat on his back arms outstretched, as Ben landed in the Sahara.

Maybe that's why the losties "seemed" to survive the crash so well?

260. Posted by: Mizzed

I like this too.

Could this be history reoccurring, but slightly differently?
? 262. Posted by: unladenswallow

this is REALLY interesting and eye opening. Must watch again.

Also, I can't seem to open any of the little url's. Is it my pc? I tried a"." instead of* but still no go. I will go find the mobisode and see what's there.

Holy crap. They are right! there is a black thing like Ben's magic ninja stick!

Stephen King's Dark Tower Books

What a great series. Not done yet, don't say anymore.

Cecil Rose:

I concede that it doesn't make sense that Jin would have been one of the two alive but then dead. If he had been, Sun would have just said he died after they got ashore. I concede it doesn't make sense but I'm not ready to let go of that just yet!
_____

I didn't mean to suggest that the survivors' story would include a part where they disinterred and hauled 2 dead bodies to the next island!

I'm suggesting that the story is that Oceanic Airlines arranged to fetch those bodies & is returning the remains to the next of kin. If not on that
C-130 then on some other transport.

Because if they invent two bodies only to leave them rotting on a deserted Indonesian island they are going to enrage the families of the dead and encourage some of them to go looking for the remains.

So if they haven't got two dead bodies they have to explain, then why did they invent two dead bodies?

I don't know whether this one has come up here before. A friend of mine recently made a comparison between Walt and Matthew Abaddon, stating that they may be the same person.

? 205. Apollo: Morality, free will, etc.:

Not boring at all, & hopefully we'll be discussing issues like that over the l-o-n-g break ahead.

? 261. Cecil Rose: Island submarine:

I wouldn't yet rule out a submarine passageway...perhaps the freighter came close enough to the island (using the correct surface bearing) so be "in the island bubble," so to speak, where time & distance are linear again. Or maybe the "subway" only runs on Wednesdays & Saturdays. Who knows?

? 263. Robislost: Who died post-crash?

As another poster pointed out way up above, wouldn't there have had to have been three people who died post-crash for the numbers to work out right? 8 survived...minus 3 who died...=5, plus Aaron's birth (1)...=O6.

Random question: Why is it so important that Kate be the one to be Aaron's mother that the O6 cover-up includes some extremely shaky lies? And wouldn't it be pretty easy to disprove Kate's biological motherhood through a DNA test?

Way back when, wasn't there a comment by the writers that there was something in the pilot eposide that no one had spotted?

Also, aren't we suppose to have flashbacks with Danielle's arrival on the island and the Black Rock in S5?

Walt told John not to open the hatch. What if everything since the opening of the hatch is the dream scene? Why would they have Walt say that if there wasn't a significant reason for it? Or, was it just to show us that Walt is special?

I think Sun has found out that her father is connected to the island in some way and is furious that she had to leave her husband behind. She's being forced to live a lie and her baby is being denied a father.

They could always say Joanna was one of the people that died because her body was swept out to sea. I don't know how Charlie is going to be explained except that his appearance to Penny will probably be swept under the rug by Widmore.

It's also interesting that Jack's father kept telling him 'you don't have what it takes' and Juliette mentions to Alpert that 'I'm not a leader.' John wants to be a hunter not a farmer. Many of these people are taking on a different life role than the one they were living. Sawyer is changing, Kate has settled down. Sun has blossomed.

Also, does everyone realize that this show has brought people of all ages, religions and cultures into open and thoughtful discussions. Maybe the boob tube can be useful after all.

@273:
Good for you, Sai Berkyo. I wish I could go back and experience the journey again, do ya kennit? Once you've finished the books, you should also check out the Gunslinger Born Comics. Excellent stuff!
Long days and pleasant nights to ya.

Theory: The underwater wreckage is not a fake.

First, Cecil Rose, thanks for that astute observation of logic that if the Others were able to time travel at will, they could have thwarted the freighter altogether. I think you're on to something. On the other hand, Ben was able to get at least one man on the boat (who knows, there could be another) and he didn't blow it up (yet), so maybe there's a reason he allowed the freighterous ones to find the island.

Here's a wacky theory: What if the wreckage found at the bottom of the ocean was really Oceanic 815 and the plane ALSO landed on the island? Going on the theory that perhaps Ben moved the island after the crash, what if the island was moved backwards in time, creating a parallel time horizon in which the "real" 815 did actually crash at the bottom of the ocean? In this theory we have two or more time horizons being played out "simultaneously." One is no more real than the other. In one, all the survivors are dead and at the bottom of the ocean. In another they're alive on the island. In the third, the Oceanic six -- through the Orchid porthole/time machine/flux capacitor -- find themselves in yet another time horizon, the too-perfect-world of There's No Place Like Home, Part 1. Yet somehow four of them sense they're not in the "right" time horizon, that they're in the wrong "fate," so they react accordingly. Hugo goes nuts. Jack tries to go back and fix it. Sayid works with Ben to "re-save" Nadia. Sun wants to go back for Jin and somehow needs control of Paik Industries to do so. Only Kate doesn't want to go back, because her fake world is better than her real world was.

Admittedly this is pretty off-the-wall, but I'm thinking about it in the context of the Orchid video, which I believe we'll see during the season finale and will become canon, where two timelines can exist but cannot come in contact with one another. Going further, perhaps the reason the Oceanic 6 have to keep the real story a secret has something to do with needing to stay away from other possible timelines, which could result in their being dead, yet Jack, who is miserable in this timeline, is defiant and insists on doing just that when he says "We have to go back."

Wow... I missed a lot in one day.

@ Mr_Naysayer - 229
HI! That theory seems very legit. I think you could be on to something...

I like it! Pure genius.

@ KSR - 240
You're such a party pooper!

Mr_Naysayer -- I guess you got 2 biggest fans! Haha.

I don't see anyone else in the photo... where is this "mystery man"? I must be blind.

Since Friday, I've been watching season 3, and I noticed a lot of things.

I'll post them later since I'm only in the middle of "Enter 77" but everything seems so much more relevant now.

Regarding Ben's death stick: He used it to beat up Sawyer in "Every Man for Himself". That stick made the scene all the more impressive.

Sorry if someone already said that.

GRAA Mac! We're gonna miss you. Thanks Vacc for filling in.

Read all the comments so here's some "Lost Thots" from France.

? 143 Richard Alpert bothers me. He is ageless, as Abbadon appears to be.

I don't think Abbadon is ageless. We've seen him in a couple of FB's that weren't that far off time wise. It was just a few years before the crash that Locke broke his back, right?

? 144

I thought Kate was looking for the police and relieved they weren't there.

? 185

That's so funny, my roommate's "lost" in Lostpedia right now looking at all the dharma logos, including the connection to the I Ching. He too, was intrigued by the binary aspect of it.

I have two theories at the moment, one big and the other minor. The big one is about the O6 and the Purple Sky Incident (PSI). I think the PSI figures large in the O6 return to civilization. Think about it, Kate, Jack and Hurley were with the Others when Locke blew up the hatch and caused the PSI. Sun and Sayid were traveling around in boat looking at 4 toed statues. They were far away from the PSI AND they got off the island. I don't think this is a coincidence.

The problem with this theory is, why aren't Sawyer and Jin part of the O6, as they were away from the PSI, AND why IS Aaron? Aaron was on the beach and
pretty close to the PSI. So why is he off the island? (for that matter, why is he with Kate and not with Claire? but that's another discussion)

Maybe Sawyer and Jin are the two who didn't make it when 8 people fell in the water in the Pacific, I mean the Indian, I mean they found the exit doors and drowned, no wait, died on the island...no wait...

Anyway, I think the PSI and the people who were exposed to the magnetic force are somehow protected or maybe pulled with the island when it moves. If you're not "magnetized" maybe you fall in the water when the island takes off. But
what about Aaron? Don't know.

Ok, little theory, I think Kate is working with Ben in the FF. I don't know if it's him talking to her on the phone, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're connected. She can't just live out her life in California raising turnip head.

Random thots and questions:

Speaking of turnip head, Aaron looks weird in clothes. Yeah we saw him as a two year old in the FF but little ol' turnip head looks strange in real world clothes being held by a Kate who isn't all sweaty and dirty.

I think I just figured out that Ben can't die, yet. The island has work for him.

Was the "typhoon" in the Oceanic press conference the tsunami?

More thots after refreshing:

? 274 So if they haven't got two dead bodies they have to explain, then why did they invent two dead bodies?

Good point! This makes no sense according to Jack's testimony at the trial.

However, I think we're gonna have to let go of all the logic surrounding Kate's "maternity" questions.

? 277

Yup, TPTB said there was a major clue in the pilot that would explain why they ended up on the island. But, at the time, I passed it off as a problem with the time zone. It should have been the middle of the night when they crashed, right?

? 279

I think you're onto something Scooby!

Thanks Mac, for a great season of reviews!

And GO SOX!!!

@10 Apollo, @42 KMFPL, @69 chopkins, and @191, 219, 224, 274 undaunted :
I saw a lot of comments this week questioning the reason why the cover story claims there were 8 original survivors of the crash, and also questions about who the additional people were supposed to have been.

Here's my farfetched guess - In Season 3's Claire-centric episode Par Avion, a note was tied to a migratory Sea Bird. The birds had been tagged. As Claire pointed out "Scientists tag these birds so they can track them. So, when they eventually land in Australia or New Zealand or wherever, somebody�s gonna gather them up."

The note was written by Claire and reads : "To whom it may concern, we are survivors of Oceanic Flight 815. We have survived on this island for 80 days. We were 6 hours into the flight when the pilot said we were off course and turned back towards Fiji. We hit turbulence and crashed. We�ve been waiting here, all this time, waiting for rescue that has not come. We do not know where we are, we only know you have not found us. We�ve done our best to live on this island. Some of us have come to accept that we may never leave it. Not all of us have survived since the crash, but there is new life too, and with it, there is hope. We are alive. Please don�t give up on us."

If the birds were able to get onto the Island, it's plausible that they can leave it as well. Perhaps the note had actually been found by someone. If so, it could be portrayed as a hoax, or it could have been followed up aggressively - even leaked to the press.

The note makes two things clear - at least one birth occurred, and at least two had died since the crash. (This can be disputed, but I put the minimum death toll at two at the time of the note because the wording "Not all of us survived" suggests that more than one person died - otherwise it would make more sense to say that "One person died").

So that accounts for two deaths, plus someone had to write the note. None of the O6 could take credit for the note - too easy to compare handwriting. This requires one more person to have been present beyond 80 days - the note's author. Although Claire wrote the note, it's apparent that the O6 did not identify her as a survivor of the crash. And while they could claim not to know the names of the first two that died, they would be expected to identify the note's author after having spent at least 80 days together.

In this case, what name would they give? It would need to be someone relatively obscure whose handwriting sample would not be produced by some family member for comparison. My guess is a con man named James Ford. (I suppose Locke would also fit the bill, but since he was paralyzed, his surviving 80 days would be less believable)

Who are the two that died right after the crash? If this is revealed at all - and it may never be - I'm betting it's Nikki and Paulo. Perhaps they "spoke" to Miles and told him that there were diamonds sprinkled on their corpses. Also, they were both minor celebrities. The public funerals of Nikki and Paulo would have awesome media value and could help quell public outrage that bodies were not recovered from the wreckage.

I believe the most compelling reason for Nikki and Paulo being chosen as the first two deceased on the Island is that they already have experience in being buried!!

It's always nice to see Ensign Ro pop up in a hit show. I wish more people would cast Michelle Forbes!

I really enjoyed Hurley's future flash, walking in and finding the coconut, hearing the whispers, and then the reveal of the inappropriately themed surprise party. His mom telling him Jesus Christ is not a weapon (no, he's a mule for heroin!), and the big flipout with the odometer. It was as fun to watch as Claire's mom's revelation was painful to.

As far as the two people responsible for Jin's death, well we need to wait and see if he's really dead on not. If he is, then whoever pulled the trigger (so to speak) could be the other person she is referring to. If he is alive on the island, then she could be referring to herself (as Zeb specualted in post 209). It's been a while since I rewatched those episodes, but IIRC, Jin had turned the trip into a second honeymoon, but Sun was planning on disappearing in Sydney. If she had gone through with the plan, Jin might not have gotten on that flight, instead staying to look for her. Or am I remembering wrong?

@Cecil Rose/4 (look up, waaay up!)

I don't think the Lostaways would have let Daniel and Char get on the boat and take off together. She's a kind of insurance that he is going to return to the island.

@Jin's Flashlight/154

He was holding a rabbit's foot. After all, the last time five of the people in the back of his plane were airborn, the plane crashed in the ocean. I'd want a good luck charm too!

@Gabriel/163

The other person on the plane looked a lot like Jacob to me! ;)

@Mr_Naysayer/229

Wait, you think that Kate's Aaron is really Claire's Aaron?!? And that Kate wasn't really 6 months pregnant when she was arrested in Australia?!? And didn't really give birth on the Island?!? And didn't name her kid the same thing as the other pregnant girl who also gave birth on the Island?!? No way!!!

@Cecil Rose/261

What are you doing back here so soon? And an even bigger question, how did Parvati end up with 5 votes?!?

For those of you who can't see the guy, he is behind Michelle Forbes (and to our left of her) near the window. We can only see the dark outline of his legs/feet.

As for the feeding of Aaron, it's obvious that Claire has been pumping and dumping all along, so they ahve plenty of food stored up! ;)

And re: Jumping the Shark, in my mind it's more than just where the quality slips, it's when the quality scripts are gone so TPTB throw in something out of left field to "reinvigorate" the show, or to get it on the "right track". Like Bobby coming out of the shower, Laverne and Shirley moving to Hollywood, Roseanne winning the lottery, Dave and Maddy becoming a couple, Murphy Brown becoming a caring mother, or half the cast of Designing Women being replaced.

I don't know how, if you have been watching the show for four seasons now, you could possibly complain about them moving the Island if you've already bought into everything else!

The other two survivors :

Eight people got off the island and they were on their way back when two of them died suddenly because they were already dead. Piece of cake. This show is so easy to understand.

Mr. Nay_Sayer:

Kate got pregnant in the bear cage. She went in one door at the Orchid and went out another door 9 months later with her baby she named after Claire�s baby who went down with the ship with Sun. Oops. Ok it all works except for Sun.

I am continuing to re-watch and just finished 'Exodus Part 2', end of season one, and as we all sit here with more questions than answers still, just wanted to point out how far we have come, this is an excerpt from Mac's review, a reminder that we just need to 'enjoy the ride' :-) (Thanks Mac!)

"And now we've got some Very Big Questions: Who are these people? Where did they come from? What do they want with Walt? Where did they get the boat? And the fuel? And the guns? Why did the bearded guy speak with an American accent? Was the woman on the boat Rousseau's long-lost daughter? Is Sawyer critically wounded? How will the rafters get back to the island? Will Driveshaft's next album go platinum?"

As always, thanks to you all, I continue to admire your brilliance...

@@@@@@@@@

@ 285 SamFin: Mr. Nay_Sayer:

Kate got pregnant in the bear cage. She went in one door at the Orchid and went out another door 9 months later with her baby she named after Claire�s baby who went down with the ship with Sun. Oops. Ok it all works except for Sun.

----

We must agree to disagree 'cuz... I hate to make any crazy hypothesis or to assume anything ('cuz we all know what happens when you assume) BUT, my stance is that Kate's baby Aaron (totally different baby in regards to Claire's baby Aaron, which we all agree now that they are not one in the same)is actually Ben's baby from their dinner and wine and candlelight on the beach that one afternoon... seeing that the island sped up the birthing terms, it only took about 100 days for the baby to grow into full term... so, with that said, THE AARON WE SEE NOW IS KATE AND BEN'S LOVE CHILD! Obviously, it all makes sense.

Hey, Meg and Ilovebenlinusxxx - good one, eh? eh? HA!

@@@@@@@

Okay, so as I said before, I've been watching season 3 instead of studying and doing homework the last 2 days. I'm only upto Expose, so yeah...

Here's what I've noticed so far.
Everything just seems so much more relevant now... I think we just need a "memory refresher" on the details.

Sorry if someone said this stuff already.

-----------

As I said before, in "Every Man for Himself", Ben used his "death stick" to knock out Sawyer in the cage.

... Ben has a way with his "death stick" =]

-----------

- Yemi was missing from the plane when Eko was "haunted" by him
- Christian was missing from the casket when Jack/Claire were "haunted" by him.

Connection?

-----------

"Shephard wasn't on his or Jacob's list" - Pickett, "I Do"

-----------

What is Juliet's real last name? Since her ex-husband (Ed)'s last name was Burke.

-----------

So there's pretty much one obvious thing in common with every character: their lives suck... or at least they're screwed up.

I guess you can say that about everyone in this world... but still. It seems like the island was the best thing that happened to them... but only a few appreciate it.

I didn't think that before about Rose and Bernard (well about their lives sucking, not that it's the best thing that happened to them, since Rose lost her cancer), but now I don't know anymore.

Seems like everyone's "running" from something.

Especiall Locke. His life pretty much sucked to the max. Hell, I'd love the island too if I were him. Who could blame him? He got some major betrayal issues.

------------

Did Ben/Richard arrange for Ed to get hit by the bus? (Like Juliet said) in "Not in Portland".

They never officially admitted to it, but it seems obvious.

-------------

What are "the others" really capable of?

From what we know ($3.2 million thing), they're pretty much capable of anything.

But where does "pretty much" end?

Money and resources can get you anywhere. (Ben, Widmore, Paik)

--------------

How come nothing happened to Kate and Sawyer when they went back to "their island" from the Hydra? I know, Desmond was closer to the "implosion", but why Minkowski (sp?) and the other dude (his partner?) Were they exposed to some type of radiation as well?

It didn't seem like Kate and Sawyer cared about the bearing they went on, but I guess it was only 2 miles.

So I guess the end of the "snowglobe" is outside of the two islands.

-------------

"Flashes Before Your Eyes" seems so relevant now.

Did we ever find out who Isabell is, other than "the sheriff"?

-------------

In support of my Vincent = Smokey theory:

Vincent seemed like he wanted to "lead" Hugo into the jungle because he knew his past with cars.

-------------

I agree with the theory that Paulikki is going to end up significant.

-------------

In "Enter 7", Kate, Locke, and Sayid were looking for Bensylvania, and they were trying to stay on the bearing of 305 because of how the light shined onto Eko's stick and the carvings Locke saw when they were burring him.

"Compass bearings provided by carvings on a stick." - Sayid

And that's when they found Mikhail and the Flame station.

-------------

I feel like my ----'s are getting uneven.

-------------

Jacob's list is supposedly the list of people who would "understand" why one would want to come back/stay on the island.

-------------

Claire: My mom WAS a libarian
Sun: Was?
Then Claire changes the subject.

I guess she thinks her mom is dead. But that could be because her mom was in a coma when she left. (Wrong?)

--------------

Alex: You know he's manipulating you, right?

John: How's that?

Alex: That's what my father does, he manipulates people... He makes you think it's your idea, but it's his.

John: I'll have to keep that in mind.

- Man from Talahassee

Relates to when John told Hugo to go back to camp... and that whole discussion with Ben.

"I'm not you", "you're certainly not" blah blah blah.

---------------

Anthony Cooper had the same scotch as Widmore, and that Sawyer found on the plane (was in his stash). I know we know that already, but I thought I'd point it out anyway.

---------------

About this episode, and the past -- Mr. Paik makes the worst facial expressions. The right side of his face is like scrunched up and deformed.

He's a little confusing to look at.

---------------

There are a few people that don't seem to like to "answer" to Ben.

Two that are obvious:
1. Juliet
2. Richard Alpert

We don't know much about RA, but that's what it seems like.

---------------

At the time we thought "Expose" was a filler, but seriously, it may end up being very significant.

I don't think the writers would have wasted an entire episode just to make us think that some random extras that had a few lines in previous episodes have a criminal past.

Maybe something will come of the Medusa Spiders?

Maybe the diamonds were sosmone else's (i.e. Widmore) before they were that old dude's. (Howie Zukerman or something?)

I'm surprized they were never curious about anything they saw. All they cared about were the diamonds.

They were the first to see the Pearl, and the plane, and so many other things.

Paulo even heard Bena nd Juliet talking in the Pearl when he was hiding the diamonds in the toilet. He heard their WHOLE PLAN. But he just decided to snatch the walkie and not tell anyone.

---------------

Where did we hear that before:
Ben: The same way I get anyone else to do anything -- find out what he's emotionally invested in, then exploit it.

---------------

The only significant thing regarding character development that happened in "Expose" was that Charlie told Sun that he and Sawyer were the ones who attacked her, not the others. Everything else was about Paulikki.

Seriously, they wouldn't waste an episode unless it's going to be important later on.

--------------

Nikki: You always whine about not being included, now's our chance.

If he really wanted to be "included", he could have warned everyone about Ben's plan!

... That's been bothering me.

I suppose then he'd have to explain why he was at the pearl in the first place, but still.

--------------

So here are a few characters that may be more significant than we thought:
1. Bernard
2. Nikki and Paulo
3. Richard Alpert

...and probably more that I can't think of.

=D (Evil smiley).

@Robislost/210
"Don't take it too seriously, you know? Play outside more :)"

Good advice; a day of fresh air has cleared my mind and refeshed my spirit.

@welh/213
"I think the biggest issue of the show going forward is that the underlying premise of the show is being kept secret from the audience. The longer the foundational premise remains hidden, the more speculation and doubt arises in the fan base."

I have no objection to the writers keeping the "underlying premise" a secret ... I just want to believe there IS one. Will address this shortly ... but first, as an aside, I have another question for you (welh) ...

In the "Cabin Fever" thread (#378), you say "When the numbers were not imputed to vent the EM, an alarm would sound, an internal barrier would drop and symbols would appear. I translated those Egyptian symbols to say 'He escapes place of death.'" I have several comments/questions on this one. Where did you get your translation? According to Lostpedia, "producer Damon Lindelof translated this sequence to mean 'underworld', which is now considered the official translation." They also post "Another translation has also been found in Raymond O. Faulkner's 'A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian'" ... honestly, I can't make any sense of that translation, can you ... anyone, anyone? I took my own non-Egyptologist stab at it, based upon info found in my copy of "Understanding Hieroglyphs" by Hilary Wilson ... I came up with my (very unprofessional) translation "Overseer of life/death." The really interesting thing (maybe), is that the phonetic translation is "swadha," a Sanskrit term used in Hindu ceremonies as a benediction for presentation of offerings to ancestors/forefathers. Once again, I find the (possible) melding of ostensibly disparate religious traditions (in this case, Egyptian and Hindu) worth mentioning. I also find it odd that someone (probably from the Dharma Initiative?) would modify modern Western computer equipment to display this message ... "Dharma" has obvious Hindu correlation, so why not just display the equivalent word in Devanagari script ... why bring hieroglyphs into the picture? Why not just have English text (maybe "ALERT" or something similar)? Bears to my next point ...

@Mizzed/260
"Clementine/246: 'I�m starting to wonder if the whole off-island storyline is even real.' and SamFin/256: 'I also think the flash forwards were unreal. And just a projection of what could have happened but didn�t cause the island did some very funny things when they moved it.'

I like that line of thought, especially as it seems to explain such a large series of awkward events. It would also be the ultimate response to those viewers who believe that the writers have suddenly turned careless or lazy."

Thank you ... no, really ... was hoping someone would come up with this type of response. This is what I meant when I earlier wrote "they 'broke the rules' with this epi. Maybe they'll be clever enough to actually write that sentiment into the show somehow," but didn't have a solution to the problem at the time. You (et al) have provided an option, and it got me to thinking further along similar lines.

The first thing that popped into my head upon reading your post was the "X-Files" episode "Field Trip," where Mulder and Scully crawl into a cave filled with a hallucinogenic substance/fungus/whatever, that deludes them into believing they have escaped the cave, so they will remain still while it slowly digests their bodies. In their "flash forwards" they escape the cave, and everything just seems to "fall into place" for Mulder ... they find definitive proof of ET, etc., and run into no trouble from TPTB. Basically, Mulder determines this is too good to be true (which it is), and convinces Scully to fight against their "dream world" where all seems to be right, while in reality it couldn't be further from the truth.

There could be something similar going on in Lost right now, but of what nature? There are SO many plot discontinuities and/or unbelievable scenarios playing out in their FFs, that it leads me to believe the "O6" are in some kind of similar limbo. Apparently (from what we've seen) Jack and Hurley are the first to pick up on this (ala Mulder in "Field Trip"), and perhaps in a future ep (season) convince the others it is all some kind of overly wishful thinking (Kate gets to keep Aaron? Sun overthrows her dad?), leading back to the island. Maybe it has something to do with the course correction concept ... I have no idea, but now tend to think this is the way the writers are going.

Finally, skipping channels today came across "Predator vs. Alien," which posits Aztec, Cambodian, and Egyptian pyramids/technology all their roots in alien "Predator" intervention on the planet. I know, I know ... lame, and done a million times before, but now wonder if some variation is the reason for the apparent olio of religious themes seen in Lost. As I've said before, we seem to have almost every known religion represented on the show in some form, as well as the "unknown" four-toed people influence! Perhaps the island is supposed to be the cradle of civilization (and I know, mirrors the Eden theme, but without the specific Judeo-Christian bent). Just a thought. If they can pull it off somehow that makes sense, it would put to rest my objection over the writers just "throwing stuff out there" in order to keep the audience guessing.

What still remains is an over-all direction for the show ... what (if anything) is the "underlying premise" of the show? Is it about "free-will," or lack thereof? Is it about right vs. wrong? Morality vs. reason? I hope we get there someday ... still too much ambiguity in the overall plot to speculate further, IMO.

@BluSerene/76
"They made it to the island, 3 died at some point, leaving 5, and then Aaron was born, giving us the Oceanic 6 (not necessarily in that order)."

@Ala�s_Longthought/276
"As another poster pointed out way up above, wouldn't there have had to have been three people who died post-crash for the numbers to work out right? 8 survived...minus 3 who died...=5, plus Aaron's birth (1)...=O6."

Thanks for pointing this out/reminding me of it! Could it be that the "bad math" eventually leads to the downfall of the O6 lie?

@Ala�s_Longthought/276
"Random question: Why is it so important that Kate be the one to be Aaron's mother that the O6 cover-up includes some extremely shaky lies? And wouldn't it be pretty easy to disprove Kate's biological motherhood through a DNA test?"

Part II to (potential) eventual downfall of the O6 lie ... given the official timeline, it also makes me wonder why they have decided to press this issue ... STILL makes no damned sense (could be related to ideas in my last post, but still begs the WHY).

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/288

Paulikki and the diamonds ...

I have pondered this a bit as well, mostly in regard to Miles' $3.2M comment. I don't know ... the diamonds were supposed to be worth $8M, so the 3.2 correlation doesn't work exactly (unless 4.8 are missing?). Also, $3.2M/$8M is peanuts to Widmore/Paik, so I can't see this a significant plot point, unless ... ???

Ealgumby/289: "Apparently (from what we've seen) Jack and Hurley are the first to pick up on this (ala Mulder in "Field Trip"), and perhaps in a future ep (season) convince the others it is all some kind of overly wishful thinking (Kate gets to keep Aaron? Sun overthrows her dad?), leading back to the island."

That's a very interesting thought, that the Oceanic 6's flash forwards represent self-fulfilled prophecies or wishes.

Taking it one step further, each member initially gets their deepest wish- Kate is acquitted and keeps Aaron. Sayid finds Nadya. Jack returns to his medical practice and gets Kate to commit to him (in a world of no Sawyer, BTW). Hurley is surrounded by loving family and friends, including possibly the first sincere gesture of caring from his formerly deadbeat father. Sun has a healthy baby girl and the ultimate revenge over her father.

But Nadya is killed. The numbers- and ghosts- chase Hurley. Jack loses it when Sawyer symbolically reenters his relationship with Kate. Will Kate and Sun's worlds also begin to decline?

One other thought. From the time of "Through the Looking Glass", all the flash forwards have progressed chronologically backwards in time, like a tape being rewound.

These flashforwards started with the farthestmost point: the suicidal, bearded Jack trying to get back to the island, and then have progressed backwards, finally reaching the rescue and press conference last week.

The only time this order has been broken was episode 10, the Jack/Kate relationship episode, which chronologically appears to fall between last season's final episode and episode 1 of this season.

Certainly the writers retain the right to jump back and forth in time at their own discretion and for dramatic license, but why shuffle this one episode?

This episode features a complete contradiction from the Jack portrayed in episode 4, who refused to have a relationship with Kate or Aaron. It is also the flashforward where Hurley denies the reality of his doctor, his being in a mental institution, and their entire lives off-island. Coincidence?

HURLEY: 'Cause we're dead... all of us. All the Oceanic Six--we're all dead. We never got off that island.

JACK: Hurley... that is not true.

HURLEY: What'd you do today?

JACK: What did I do today? I, uh... (sighs) I woke up, took a shower. Uh, Kate and I fed the baby.

HURLEY: I thought you didn't want anything to do with her.

JACK: I changed my mind after the trial.

HURLEY: Living with Kate... taking care of Aaron... it all seems so perfect... just like heaven.

JACK: Just because I'm happy doesn't mean that this isn't real, Hurley.

Did anyone notice the sea turtle on the beach when Sayid pulled up in the inflatable? Its there clear as day and then when they all rush down to the beach/boat its gone.

Also a small inflatable with a 30 litre gas tank + 30hp engine would have a maximum range of about 6 miles so that means that the freighter would be easily visible on the water from the island and the island would easily be visible from the boat and look absolutely huge!!

? 292. Posted by: Mizzed
But Nadya is killed. The numbers- and ghosts- chase Hurley. Jack loses it when Sawyer symbolically reenters his relationship with Kate. Will Kate and Sun's worlds also begin to decline?
+++++
I think Sayid said it best (for himself and all of the four adults in the OA6) with his mention of "... selling his soul to the devil".

They all bought a timeshare in Hades (Hedonism Too) when they bought into the rescue lie that got them off of the island, their big cash settlement & lifetime Golden Travel Tickets on Oceanic Air.
- - -
re: Will Kate and Sun's worlds also begin to decline?

Sun's world declined. She is now CEO of an out-dated industry facing severe competition in a declining world energy market.

Kate's world declined. She is imprisoned in the People's Republic of California for 10 years - where her windfall profits will be systematically milked from her bank account until she has to take several minimum wage jobs just to keep Aaron in Saltine's and Tang.

happy thoughts 8)

I don't think the survivors saying there were eight before Aaron was born will expose their lie.

Because I would definitely buy it if they explained it thus: "Of course there were 8 of us. We always counted the baby. So many lives were lost, and this tiny little thing was alive & kicking in his mother's womb. He was our hope for making it. He was our miracle. There were 8 of us that got out of that plane alive. I defy anyoneto look at this child and tell me there weren't."

@FF's not being real:

If this is the case, can someone explain to me why Ben went out of his way to find and recruit Said as an assassin?

What if the FF's are real, but the 06 just aren't completely 'there'? Like they left their souls/spirits on the Island. It is possible that the Island is some kind of gateway to the underworld/realm of the dead. (with Smokey as it's guardian, like Cerberus). Maybe in order to leave, the 06 had to make a deal to sell or loan their soul/life essence to the Island/Others, and the happy off-Island times are mere percs, provided by the Island.
Maybe the Island/Others need souls/life essence to power up the Island-moving machine :)

I think the FF's are real....but, I am also buying into the possibility that none of it is real (to contradict myself). It all centers around Hurley. Hurley is the key, the answer, the character who we all thought was there mainly for humor, not significant...

Just to show that you can find non-existing connections to Lost everywhere. I just remembered the name Hugo de Groot (I'm Dutch) and googled it.

Hugo de Groot (translates as Hugo the large) 1583 - 1635

A Dutch jurist and writer. His most famous work, 'De iure belli ac pacis', about law during war and peace, was the basis for many of the current, universal laws we know. He is also known for being a strong patron for unrestrained acces to the Ocean for all. Furthermore, he is famous from escaping from prison, by hiding in a chest that had carried books.

References to Hugo's name, him being large, the book of laws, war and peace, going out on the ocean, escaping through a box and check out some of the numbers in his birth and death dates... Scary stuff, I say! :)

@297Meg:

I did expect Hugo to be important to the story, fairly early on. That's because it's a typical Stephen King thing to do, and I'm sure his way of storytelling was a major influence on the way Lost was written.

Just want to give everyone a head's up: Just like last year, MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE FINALE HAVE BEEN LEAKED.

I will NOT be posting the spoilers and I ask that others avoid posting them here as well.

If someone sneaks in and posts the spoilers through the comments, please email me directly and I'll delete the comment as quickly as possible.

Last year I peeked at the spoilers, and I was very disappointed in myself for doing it! It ruined the "WOW" factor in the finali!! This year, I'll show restraint. So, no matter how much I ask...DON"T TELL ME THE SITE, MAC!!!

Is there one more season of this show or two??

Maybe Sayid's hesitant and awkward Nadia reunion is because he know's of the future, and there's nothing he can do about it.

@279 Scooby-dude...
Great theory, I wonder if what we missed in the pilot episode could be hints to this parallel crash.....?

@270. berkyo said:

>Desmond had a lot of visions and I think he figured out he could NOT save Charlie. Since he sooooo desperately wants to get to Penny, I think he may have lied and told Charlie what he thought would make Charlie help him. We did not see that vision, of Claire and the heli, did we? I don't remember it,and we saw all the other visions.

I don�t believe we saw Desmond�s �Charlie drowning" visions, either of them, (one when trying to save Claire, one when trying to catch a bird for her).

O===============

@279 Scooby-Dude wackied:

>Here's a wacky theory: What if the wreckage found at the bottom of the ocean was really Oceanic 815 and the plane ALSO landed on the island?

Contradicted by Frank Lapidus testimony that the pilot in the underwater wreckage was not 815�s pilot.

O===============

@284 FenwayBen mentioned:

>His [Hurley�s] mom telling him Jesus Christ is not a weapon (no, he's a mule for heroin!),

That was the Virgin Mary, not JC.

>I don't think the Lostaways would have let Daniel and Char get on the boat and take off together. She's a kind of insurance that he is going to return to the island.

Good point, probably the correct reason, and excellent storytelling that the writers didn�t belabor it but left it for us (well, some of us) to figure out.

>What are you doing back here so soon? And an even bigger question, how did Parvati end up with 5 votes?!?

18 hours? We're too old for a longer celebration.

I guess with intellects of the caliber of James, Jason, Erik, and Ozzie on the jury, anything can happen.

O===============

@mac

>Just want to give everyone a head's up: Just like last year, MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE FINALE HAVE BEEN LEAKED.

And unlike last year I am staying far, far, away from them.

O===============

>@301 meg asked:

>Is there one more season of this show or two??

Two. Apparently of 17 episodes each (to make up for the two missing this season due to the writer�s strike).

@Cecil Rose....Contradicted by Frank Lapidus testimony that the pilot in the underwater wreckage was not 815�s pilot...

what if he did not fly that day in the parallel world. (someone stoped him or he was not available because in his parallel world he was to be the copter pilot on the freighter!?

oh this is destroying my brain and taking much time away from my job. I LOVE IT.. :)

@ 289/ ealgumby, hatch alarm translation

I started at wiki to decode the symbols. They were clearly Egyptian. I used the corresponding Gardiner german translation of the symbol codes into letters or phonetics. Using the sounds, I found one transliteration site that corresponded to all the symbol sounds with reference to the Beinlich german translation index. From those results, I concluded the message was 'He escapes place of death.'

I then thought that the Hatch was a mechanism to keep a menace (from the underworld) at bay from the island.

It does lead to the question why the connection to Egypt? Is this a clue that the island is a creation of advanced technology Egyptian pyramid building alien gods?

? 280. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxxbut everything seems so much more relevant now.
Boy, you said it. I am watching one(birthday gift)and 2 (netflix) and EVERYTHING anybody says has a meaning now! They can't have written it that way.
e.g. Jin destroys Sun's garden and then helps her replant.
"What are you doing", she asks.
"I am fixing a mistake." He says. He could have said "I was a jerk pulling your plants up. I was mad, I'm sorry."
But now it sounds to me like the mistake was the crash and putting the universe back on track is fixing it. Everything alludes to something else.

Holy crap�I go out of town for the wekend and come back to over three hundred comments. I've finally caught up�had to read them all before I posted so as to avoid one of those "Sorry if someone's already said this, but�"

I thought it was a very good episode, but not one that was intended to stand on its own�more of an Act 2 kind of thing. And in typical movie/play fashion, Act 2's have a tendency to put people off. But I've seen too many movies and read too many books to be put off by this sort of thing. And I've been wham-boozled by Darlton too many times to not give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. They stretched it with Paolikki, but doggonit she was so friggin' cute I was happy to let 'em. How cool would it be if the Medusa spider put them into some kind of hibernation (no O2 required) and they were to come back as key plot points? I said at the time and I'll say it again, Nikki's resemblance to Kate was extraordinary.

I also thought the opening of the tailgate of the cargo plane was very CEotTK. I kept looking for Richard Dreyfuss to appear stuffed like a sausage in an orange jumpsuit.

The Keamy Armpit Failsafe absolutely must be tied to his heartbeat. Heartbeat stops -> C-4! explodes. Island moves -> same result. But I don't think the ship will explode quite yet b/c Kevin Johnson is on it. I don't know where Michael went�maybe he's with Claire's Aaron�I understand he can't stand Kate's Aaron�allergic to turnips.

I think Ben was communicating with Eyeliner Richard hence his merry band of armed regulators (sans tights and jerkins) coming to the rescue.

I have little doubt that the island caused Claire's mom to awaken from her coma to twist Jack's (and Kate's) panties.

Can I say it now? With all of Faraday's ferrying of people to and fro, they surely are going to need a bigger boat.

I'm working on a theory that the island is Atlantis and is some kind of alien beacon/monitoring station, and Smoky is the Gort/watchman.

I agree with so many others when I say that the geography of the whole thing's got me in a tizzy. Sydney to LA is NE, but the plane crashes to the NW? Using the same bearing to get to/away from the island? If that doesn't descibe a mirror (much like Ben's signalling device) alternate reality/multiverse I don't know what does.

I should probably get some work done now�

283. Posted by: vacc

I must have watched season 1 and 2 three times now and I don't remember the note! It is an explanation of the numbers of survivors. This is logical. Because in a cover up, the simpler is the best. Why invent other survivors who died? Unless Oceanic got a rebate on their insurance if more than 7 survive.

? 305. Posted by: bean116
@Cecil Rose....Contradicted by Frank Lapidus testimony that the pilot in the underwater wreckage was not 815�s pilot...

-- what if he did not fly that day in the parallel world?

Scooby Wackadoozled:
YES! In fact I'd go even further with the wackiness and say that it was Lapidus himself who was in the wreckage (assuming he doesn't have a wedding band). He was supposed to be the pilot but something got altered and he wasn't on the flight. And if you believe the island has the ability to course correct, he's now conveniently on the island and will probably die soon.

I sure would have appreciated it if one of those reporters at the press conference had asked the survivors this question: "Did no one on flight 815 question the fact that their flight to LA from Sydney took them NW over the continent of Australia?

It must be a doozy of a story Oceanic dreamed up to prevent that question from being asked. I hope to hear it soon.

@288 ilovebenjiminlinusxx

Thanks for the recap... There are so many things that I forgot about that now seem like blatant clues. Can�t believe no one caught Ben�s magic stick next to Jack until now. I also agree with you that Paulikki will be very important to the story�. I think Darlton may have said that too.

Apollo, cecil and vacc � you continue to be brilliant and amaze me with your posts. Very thought provoking and even maddening at times b/c I wonder why I didn�t think of it first.

Re: the other person on the plane� just because we can see him as an audience doesn�t mean the O6 can see him. Could it be an apparition �guarding� the O6 as they leave the island. Or maybe we�re reading into it way too much and it�s just a crew member.

Re: Kate�s long arm. It�s probably Sun�s arm to the right of Kate� I don�t think that there�s any mystery there, just a bad pic. Maybe Darlton had that pic in order to distract us from things that we really should be looking for, like the magic stick next to Jack�s head in the Pilot.

Maybe due to our need to dissect every detail we�re looking a little too hard for disguised details and missing the obvious ones? Or maybe I�m not watching the same show as everyone else�. I dunno, just my 4 cents (cents have increased from 2 to 4 due to gas prices)

When I rewatched season 1-3, I found MANY things I had missed previously. I recommend every Lost fan to do this, as time permits.

Has anyone thought about who Ben's man on the boat might be??? Someone suggested Michael, but I still disagree. We haven't seen Cindy lately...could be her.

→ 311. Posted by: undaunted
I sure would have appreciated it if one of those reporters at the press conference had asked the survivors this question: "Did no one on flight 815 question the fact that their flight to LA from Sydney took them NW over the continent of Australia?
- - - -
Agreed - there should have been more investigative questions. It did feel that the interview was more like the writers throwing us die-hard fans a bone, with questions posed on websites over the years... (Hurley still so robust?)... I just wish they asked more... maybe they will have a press conference "flashback" where we get to see all of the questions that were not asked in this episode.

Another weakness in the island-rescue story of the O6: Oceanic/survivors gave the coordinates/map of the previously unchartered island now called Membata.

Now, with the global press frenzy about the O6 tale of survival, would we not expect at least one film crew actually retrace the harrowing adventure back to Membata? And on that island, would there not be clear evidence of a camp that the survivors made for 100 days? And would not the other two survivors buried there? Would not their families want to retrieve their remains? The whole O6 cover story would be put in doubt if a) Membata does not exist or b) someone who goes to the island to confirm the story finds no camp and no graves.

Relevant to some of our discussion points, below is an abridged version of an interview with Damon and Carlton from Entertainment Weekly (2/22/08)

******************************************
DAMON AND CARLTON: A SEASON 4 INTERVIEW

DOC JENSEN: Some people are even wondering if the flash-forward stories in each episode are being presented chronologically. For example, did the opening sequence of Sayid's flash-forward � in which he killed the Italian guy on the golf course in the Seychelles � actually occur after his ill-fated Elsa affair?

LINDELOF: There was originally a line in that episode where Sayid said, ''I've just returned from the Seychelles,'' which would have cleared all that up. But we lost it in editing because the scene went on for four minutes. When we're presenting you with a narrative, it's always happening in chronological order.

CUSE: Lost is complex and dense, but we are very conscious of the limits. If we are going to jump time, we're not going to jump narrative order within the time jumps, too.

LINDELOF: We wrote the Sayid episode before the Boston Red Sox won the World Series a second time. So when Jack said to Frank Lapidus, ''Did the Red Sox really win the World Series?'' and Lapidus says, ''Please don't remind me,'' certain subsets of the Lost audience began asking, ''Is it possible Lapidus is actually from 2008?!'' But you have to understand: we are not writing the show for now. We are writing the show so that when you put it in your DVD player 20 years from now, you don't have to understand the nuances of the Red Sox winning the World Series, only they hadn't won it in a long time.

CUSE: But you won't have a DVD player, Damon.

LINDELOF: It'll just be downloaded into your brain.

DOC JENSEN: Another popular theory making the rounds is that we're dealing with alternate realities. For example, there are people who think the flash-forwards are merely possible future scenarios, not written in stone.

CARLTON CUSE: We want people to believe in the stakes of the show. The problem with alternative realities is that you never know when the rug is going to be pulled out from under you. We want the audience to believe that the jeopardy is real. Postulating alternative realities would be an escape valve that would be damaging that as a narrative value.

DAMON LINDELOF: You can get away with it in Heroes, where there is an apocalyptic future you want to avoid. But we're doing the opposite. We want to work toward a future where Jack is absolutely miserable and wants to go back to the Island. Everything we present to the audience has to be factual.

CUSE: We want the audience to believe that is THE future. We don't want people thinking, ''Well, since there are five iterations of this, I'm not going to invest in what's happening to the characters.''

LINDELOF: We're not going to tell you that we're against bending the time/space continuum. We are very for it. Carlton and I are PRO time-space continuum bending! But we're ANTI-paradox. Paradox creates issues. In Heroes, Masi Oka's character travels back from the future to say, ''You must prevent New York from being destroyed.'' But if they prevent New York from being destroyed, Masi Oka can never travel back from the future to warn you, because Future Hiro no longer exists. Right? So when we start having those conversations at Lost, we go, ''This show is already confusing enough as it is.'' To actually have characters traveling through time has to be handled very deftly.

CUSE: For example, the fifth episode of the season [airing next week] deals with time travel and operates in different time periods. It was a tough story to break. But we adhere to our rule: no paradox.

LINDELOF: It's been weird, though. When we got back from the strike, we had to put up a master timeline of the future, from the point where the Oceanic 6 will end up leaving the Island all the way up to where the flash-forwards will end.

CUSE: And the hard thing was charting a timeline when there's a bend in space/time: How do you illustrate that kind of timeline when time isn't entirely linear? That took us an entire morning �

LINDELOF: � just to debate the quantum physics of it all.

CUSE: We needed to bring in a professional illustrator. [They smirk.]

I have a sneaking suspicion you're pulling my leg on some of this stuff.

LINDELOF: Maybe.

CUSE: But we do feel this is a place where we can challenge the audience to create a chronology � where Sayid's story happens in relationship with Jack's story, etc. We'll be adding pieces of that mosaic over the course of these five hours that should hopefully leave you with some fairly clear understanding of what happened between the time the Oceanic 6 were rescued or returned to the real world and Jack and Kate's final scene in the season finale.

DOC JENSEN: How would you describe the general structure of the season?

CARLTON CUSE: This year, it's all about the castaways' relationship to the Freighter folk. Since day one, their goal has been to get off the Island. Now our heroes will find themselves defending the very island they wanted to leave. The future hints at the fact that these folks have a deeper connection to the Island than they themselves realized.

DAMON LINDELOF: The big mystery looming over this season is, how did some people get off the Island and what happened to the people who didn't? That's the mystery that we owe the answer to at the end of the season, in addition to who's in the coffin. We could be winky about the coffin all the way through season 5. But that was one of the first things we talked about when we got back to work on the new episodes: We definitely have to show who was in the coffin. That's the primary super-structure of the season. As a result of that, certain thematic elements � the element of fate or supernatural elements as they relate to the monster and Jacob � are certainly in play but not as interesting to us this season as these questions: Why do some of the characters leave? How do they leave? What are the circumstances under which they leave? Why do some stay? Is it a choice? Is it an accident? Both?

CUSE: There are larger cosmic questions involved in that. Daniel Faraday's rocket experiment in the Sayid episode, which established a time differential on the Island, was a very important scene in that it sets the table for things that come into play in the future of the show. We've learned a lot about our characters' relationship to the Island, but now we're going to learn their relationship to the outside world once they've been on the Island. This is an important new idea to the show.

What's the deal with Jacob's shack? It keeps moving. Then Hurley saw Jack's father rocking in Jacob's chair.

CUSE: You will definitely see more of the cabin and it was very observant that many fans noted the presence of Jack's father inside the cabin. We'll shine a little bit more light on that later this season. This is stuff that is a big part of the show going forward, but in terms of the final five episodes of the season, those are not the kind of questions we'll be answering.

Hurley also saw an eyeball looking back at him. Should we be wondering about the identity of the owner of this eyeball?

LINDELOF: You should be wondering, certainly.

CUSE: One of the definitions of omniscience is to be in more than one place at a time.

LINDELOF: I always thought that word was pronounced omni-science.

CUSE: Well, you've learned something new today.

My annual inquiry: Will we be dealing with the Adam and Eve skeletons this season?

LINDELOF: No. But they will be addressed.

More Dharma Initiative intrigue this season?

LINDELOF: You haven't seen your last station. But the larger mythos, like ''The Purge'' � that's more season 5.

CUSE: We showed the Orchid video orientation film at Comic-Con � that is important for this season.

Someone at my office wants an answer to this question: Wasn't it just a little too convenient for Penny to be calling the Island at the exact same moment Charlie killed the dampening field in the season finale?

LINDELOF: Good question. Here's how we always thought of that: What we always imagined was that Penny has an auto dialer in the bedroom of her house and in various places that is constantly sending some sort of transmission to the coordinates that were revealed at the end of season 2. So when Charlie turned off the dampening field, her auto caller indicated that her call could go through.

Now that they have a satellite phone, why doesn't Desmond just call Penny?

LINDELOF: Lapidus explains the rules of the satellite phone and what calls it can and can't make in episode 5.

The Sayid episode established that Ben's got this list of bad people that need executing. What can you say about these people?

CUSE: We'll know by the end of the season that there will be two alternative explanations for why Oceanic 815 is in the trench at the bottom of the ocean. It will not be clear which story one should believe. [To be clear, Cuse is saying the mystery of Ben's list is linked to this wreckage.]

LINDELOF: Both stories will be presented and both stories will have legitimate facts presented on their behalves.

CUSE: The act of taking a plane, filling it with dead bodies and putting it at the bottom of the ocean connotes a group that is pretty freakin' powerful. You should be worried about the people involved in either scenario capable of doing something like that.

Is one of these groups ''The Maxwell Group,'' a mysterious outfit introduced via the ''Find 815'' alternate reality game?

LINDELOF: We cannot say that any of that stuff in ''Find 815'' is in canon. The Maxwell Group is something that Hoodlum came up with. Last fall, we presented them with the idea that, at the beginning of the second episode, a salvage ship was going to find wreckage of Oceanic 815. From there, they came up with a story � and backstory � that led up to that event. [Some background: prior to the strike, the producers and ABC's marketing team hired a company in Australia called Hoodlum to execute ''Find 815.'']

CUSE: We provided the creative framework but didn't oversee the execution.

LINDELOF: I'll sign off on this idea: the Christiane 1, which in the show was responsible for finding Oceanic 815, was in fact looking for the Black Rock. We established that in the show � but the people who owned the ship may have been up to a little bit more than just looking for the Black Rock.

So what's official and what's not? What's ''canon?''

CUSE: The mobisodes are in canon. The Orchid video is in canon. The videogame is not in canon. It's unfair for the audience to go to ancillary sources in order to really understand the show. Even the things like the mobisodes, which are in canon, aren't essential to your understanding of the show. These things are just added bonuses.

LINDELOF: The only true canon is the show itself.

DOC JENSEN: You've certainly picked some interesting names for your Freighter folk. How should we be interpreting them?

DAMON LINDELOF: With Miles Straum, we just thought it would be cool if his name sounded like ''maelstrom.'' Charlotte Lewis was an obvious reference to C.S. Lewis and an important clue to places we're going at the end of the season.

CARLTON CUSE: And an important clue to Charlotte's own, as-yet-untold important backstory.

LINDELOF: One of our producers, Eddie Kitsis, has been pitching to us ''Frank Lapidus, Helicopter Pilot'' for years. Daniel Faraday is an obvious shout-out to Michael Faraday, scientist and physicist.

CUSE: As is Minkowski, who's on the Freighter. Those names are clues related to the space/time issues that will become more significant downstream.

For the record, is the official lingo here ''the Freighter folk''?

LINDELOF: I like ''Freighter folk'' because you wonder if there's an album cover out there somewhere with all of them, and they have The Mamas and The Papas outfits on.

CUSE: ''Freighter folk'' is more benign. And they're not the only people on that freighter. You're going to meet some other people on the Freighter who have another name, and in contrast to those folks these freighter folk are very...uh, folkish.

How about Matthew Abbaddon?

LINDELOF: ''Abaddon,'' we dug that one out of Wikipedia. When we name people, we often do Web searches on certain verbiage or if we want to pull something out of Greek mythology or Native American mythology, like, ''Who was the god of wheat?''

CUSE: I can't believe you're telling Jeff about the god of wheat now! The entire second half of the fourth season is about the god of wheat!

LINDELOF: Wasn't your nickname at Harvard ''the god of wheat?''

CUSE: No, it was god of rye.

LINDELOF: You see how I get confused.

[Sigh.]

Source: EW.com

-262 unladenswallow said: I believe now that the sounds heard by the castaways in the middle of the first night was the island being moved.

Wow! I love that idea!

-283 vacc reminded us about Claire's note.

If it was Widmore's pigeon, that would explain it NOT being leaked to the press.

-310 Scooby "wackadoozled" that Lapidus did, in fact, fly OA815. Now THAT really blows my mind.

Not only do WNABB, INABB (I need a bigger brain). Lots of great stuff by eal, berkyo, cecil and the rest. It's gonna be a long wait til 5/29.

welh,

Somehow I have a feeling that whatever ginormous malevolent corporation/entity has the resources to pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude would have the wherewithal to deposit a few traces/remants of Survivor: Membata, including but not limited to campfires, honey pits, two-hammock huts, coconut husks, Apollo wrappers and empty Ranch dressing bottles, and a Wilson volleyball. Although they probably wouldn't bother re-creating Fort Knox...

→ 316. Posted by: Clementine
Relevant to some of our discussion points, below is an abridged version of an interview with Damon and Carlton from Entertainment Weekly (2/22/08)
- - - -
And two months later they likely recanted much of the timeline related stuff, via podcast, with...

Q: Are we going to ever see any more traditional flashbacks, where the events took place before flight 815 crashed onto the island?

All bets are off. We reserve the right to do flashforwards, flashbacks, flashsideways, and none of the above. I think when you see what we have cooking... you'll be asking what form Season 5 will take.

ransomjackson,

But it gets back to the compressed time line issues. The 815ers are on Day 100-101 on the island. They apparently get to civilization on Day 108-109. In less than a week, the O6 get off the island, get a cover story memorized, while the evil empire finds an unchartered island and creates a three month old camp site?

welh,

...and the SS Minnow with a gaping hole in its keel lying in the lagoon...

I see your point about the timeframe.

With the state of journalism today, I hafta believe that somebody would fly to the O6 (aka Gilligan's) Island to do a hum-int story...most likely to debunk any bunk OA is tossing out there.

Someone please double-check my geography, but is it a possible that the supposed uncharted island could have been wiped clean of all traces of people being stranded there for three months by the tsunami?

Which I suppose begs the question...did Widmore cause the tsunami? Admittedly that's one helluva stretch, but hey, why not?

? 319. Posted by: DocH
"And two months later they likely recanted much of the timeline related stuff, via podcast, with.."

I interpret that as a response to fan questions regarding FBs and FFs in the same episode. I do think the producers will stick to the "no paradox" rule, meaning that the future we see is THE reality, not an alternate reality based on actions taken in the past or present.

They may present points in time out of sequence, but the facts won't change. Just our perspective based on the knowledge we have at the moment.

After this episode and the interesting discussion here regarding the soap-opera quality of the character's future stories, I began to wonder if this wasn't all a Hurley-vision brought on by some bad Santa Rosa jello. But when I read Darlton's discussion on "no paradox" again, I think the future we are seeing is real. We just don't have all the facts or perspective yet.

Re the issue of why the O6 weren't asked about being found in the Indian Ocean rather than the Pacific:

After thinking about it for a while, it seems to me that Oceanic's officials would have been the logical people to ask about why 815 was found where it was, rather than the people on 815. Generally, a transoceanic flight would be at 30,000 feet (roughly), & if there's any cloud cover, a person on the plane isn't going to see any ground landmarks, only the tops of the clouds. Secondly, w/a large plane like 815, fewer than half of the passengers are going to have a window seat to be looking out to see anything anyway. Finally, although perhaps I'm undercrediting people's sense of geography, I doubt that most people would pay attention to the placement of the sun or even what's visible on the ground (assuming no cloud cover). I think most people assume that the pilot knows what s/he's doing & pay no attention to the apparent direction of the plane. On a long flight like that, there are movies to watch, naps to take, meals to eat, drinks to drink, etc., especially as Oceanic isn't a US carrier (apologies to anyone who works for a US airline).

So although the geography question is a burning one that is begging to be answered (or ought to be, & I'm still waiting for TPTB to address it), the O6 aren't the right batch to ask about it.

I don�t believe we saw Desmond�s �Charlie drowning" visions,

Right Cecil rose. I guess I thought I saw them. We did see the one where Charlie gets an arrow. Maybe that was the only one. And then Someone landing on the island.

@140 JoePike I too was impressed with Matthew Fox's acting this week. when he found out about Claire being his sister, it really looked like he got punched in the stomache.
@ilovebenlinusxx i agree don't lose faith in the show. I thought this was a great episode. I have tried for the last 3 shows to try & catch Jack's irritating breathing & I don't hear it. I forget to pay attention because I get so wrapped up in the show.
One more thing, the pilot in the beginning with the rabbit's foot - Hurley's key chain, wasn't it a rabbit's foot? Rabbit # 15?

? 321. Posted by: ransomjackson
With the state of journalism today, I hafta believe that somebody would fly to the O6 (aka Gilligan's) Island to do a hum-int story...
- - - -
NBC Dateline would cover that story... but then make half of it up as they went along.

DocH,

Is Dan Rather working @ NBC now?

? 327. Posted by: ransomjackson
Is Dan Rather working @ NBC now?
- - - -
I said - made 'half' of the story up, not, - made it 'all' up. [;^).

Of course Dateline would do the first 5 minutes on the OA6... and the next 55 minutes on how trans-oceanic air travel is the leading cause of global warming, destroying the ozone, and is responsible for millions of deaths in the third world, annually.

Something I still don't understand is how the plane got so far off course. The way I figure it is that the instrument panel died and the pilot just randomly flew around the ocean looking for Figi.

I am right on this? Could the islanders have messed with the mechanics of the plane and 'pulled' the plane to the island?

All this talk about the press conference makes me wonder: was it real? are they legitimate reporters? Mac expressed some doubt that Ms Decker was part of a cover-up, but if OA has made all the arrangements, they could also have staged the whole thing with their own people who would ask only certain questions (and Ms Decker might simply be a pawn, unaware of the whole/real picture). And, we still don't know who owns OA, so they could all be Widmore's people. Or...someone else's?

@DocH/328
"Of course Dateline would do the first 5 minutes on the OA6... and the next 55 minutes on how trans-oceanic air travel is the leading cause of global warming, destroying the ozone, and is responsible for millions of deaths in the third world, annually."

Maybe not millions ... perhaps 324 Thai?

@Ala�s_Longthought/323
"After thinking about it for a while, it seems to me that Oceanic's officials would have been the logical people to ask about why 815 was found where it was, rather than the people on 815. ...

Finally, although perhaps I'm undercrediting people's sense of geography, I doubt that most people would pay attention to the placement of the sun or even what's visible on the ground (assuming no cloud cover). ...

So although the geography question is a burning one that is begging to be answered (or ought to be, & I'm still waiting for TPTB to address it), the O6 aren't the right batch to ask about it."

Wow ... I don't know why it has taken me SO long to recognize the inherent fallacy of the crash scenario! Upon reading your post though, a couple things occurred to me. First of all, while I agree that "most" people wouldn't "pay attention to the placement of the sun," I find it hard to believe that on a flight with 324 people, NO ONE would! I know that I have personally selected seat placement based upon knowledge of whether I would have the sun glaring through my window or not (I usually like the window seat if I can get it) based upon the flight direction, and have to believe at least ONE passenger on 815 is as anal as I about such things. ;)

The flight from Sydney to LA is just north of NE on a direct great circle path (stretch a string tautly on a globe from Sydney to LA to find the shortest path, that which would be taken by the flight), so those on the left side of the plane would expect the sun in their windows until sunset. Flight 815 left Sydney at 2:15 pm, meaning they'd hit darkness for sure before 8:00 pm local Sydney time if on the correct course, less than six hours into the flight (probably much earlier depending upon their speed). Yet according to pilot Seth Norris' brief dialogue in the first epi: "Six hours in, our radio went out; no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji. By the time we hit turbulence, we were a thousand miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place."

Indeed ... the plane crashed in daylight! Not just daylight, but damned near midday by my estimation. This makes NO sense in terms of the supposed NE course! Given that a transoceanic flight would be cruising above weather as well, there's simply NO way the pilots wouldn't realize their course was wrong ... the sun would be in the wrong side of the cockpit. This doesn't even account for a SINGLE passenger noticing something was awry, either because of sun direction or absence of expected darkness.

Yet the ONLY way they could've crashed in daylight would be if flying westward, instead of east. In that sense, at least, the Fiji/Sumba scenario makes *some* sense. What doesn't make sense is why Capt. Norris would be apparently oblivious to this fact.

Something is very wrong here ...

Okay, some dumb questions:

What doe TPTB (The Producers...?) and MIF (Meg is...?) stand for?

@316 Clementine
Thanks for posting the interview, very interesting. I'm still troubled by D&C saying there won't be any time travel paradox, since in my view the paradox is inherent in time travel. But I did find an interesting way of looking at time travel at the following aptly named site:
http://homepage*mac*com/billtomlinson/newtt*html
(change *s to dots)

It refers to timeline branching, whereby traveling to the past creates a new timeline that essentially replaces the previous one.

Oops ... made a mistaken ref to Fiji near the end of my last post when I meant Bali (where the wreckage was supposedly found) ... should read "Bali/Sumba," not "Fiji/Sumba" ... AACK! Sorry if that made things more confusing than they already are ...

BTW, went back and tried to find dialogue evidence of time-of-day when 815 crashed ... found this from transcripts of "One Of Us" (#316) when Ben sends Goodwin and Ethan off to the crash sites:

"BEN: Juliet. Juliet! I was looking for you this morning. You and I need to talk."

This implies the crash took place some time in the afternoon ... this would be consistent with a flight from Sydney leaving at 2:15 pm and flying toward Bali/Sumba.

Sorry again for any confusion ...

@Brian Douglas/333

TPTB = The Powers That Be
MIF = Meg Is First

@Scooby-Dude/334
"It refers to timeline branching, whereby traveling to the past creates a new timeline that essentially replaces the previous one."

This similar to the Novikov Principle, except by NP, the two timelines MUST converge back to a "true" worldline at the point in the future where someone traveled back in time ... according to NP, any disturbance to the "new" branch (relative to the original branch) must be "course corrected" by that time, such that they converge seamlessly.

I'm now wondering if THIS is what is going on in the FFs right now ... things "seem" unreal, because the universe is forcing things back to where "they need to be". I reference Desmond's talk with Ms. Hawking, and her premonition about Mr. Red Shoes dying, let alone Desmond's flashes. Also think about Michael not being able to die ...

Things can happen on the "new" branch that might otherwise seem fantastic, in order to "course correct" back to the "true" conjunction of timelines ... the universe has "no choice" but to allow these otherwise unrealistic events to occur, or the timelines will not be able to conjoin at the appropriate time, and reestablish the "course corrected" worldline.

Therefore, the post-O6 events don't have to be "unreal," just unusually convenient, such that the "corrected" timeline is eventually returned to. This is where I'm leaning now anyway ...

Brian,

To further explain the anagrams . . . of course �The Powers that be� is fairly
world known and probably no problem . .

However, you�re probably a little confused about why �Meg is First�, aren�t you?

Several seasons ago, when we had a whole lot FEWER bloggers here than we do now, there was this contest to be the �first� blogger on line following Mac�s review.
Meg made it in on several occasions, but many times was beaten by a nose . . . but because Meg is the �joy of all our hearts� it was decided that, regardless of who actually blogged on first . . . Meg would always be the HONORARY FIRST BLOGGER.

At least that�s the story and we�re going to stick to it.

By the way, for this season - because he won last summer�s best quip contest - Red Neck Man was honored with the �He Who is Always Last� award. Which, of course, means that it doesn�t really matter who the last blogger is each week - Red Neck Man is always considered �the end of the line� . . . .

Any of those stories you hear about Meg bitching and moaning and complaining till she got her way are simply fraudulent tales being spread by some jealous loser in Season Two . . . Pay no attention to them.

The �Meg is the Joy of Our Hearts� is the story we�re sticking to.

I love Meg!

@@@@@@@@@

Crazy Theory Alert!!!!

Okay, now many of you might know I like to post some extremely obvious facts but make them sound like I am clueless (Michael is really Kevin Johnson, not all of the 815ers died but some actually are living on an island, Kate's baby Aaron isn't really hers, etc etc...) And sure, it is fun because some posters really think I am being serious... but, here is one that could be something to think about...

Wait for it... wait for it...

With the flash forwards we see Baby Aaron at about age 45-50ish... he uses his ability (or the Island's ability) to go back and forth in time - this far in the future, we know that being on the island is actually a good thing and the integrity of the island must be kept intact... blah, blah, blah and so forth...ultimately revealing that he is Jacob. He was a baby on the island and was "saved" after about 100 days, but his abilities and island-birth powers have always remained strong in him...etc.etc....

Ealgumby - help me develop this theory! This one may actually have some threads of possibilty in it...

or maybe it is just the fact that me and Smokey were hanging out a few minutes ago and my mind is a tad hazy right now... (is that the sound of the mystical bong?)

@@@@@@@@

REN: Captain's log. I'm tired. So tired. I can't believe my own partner attacked me. Maybe...if I occupy his MIND with more DUTIES, I can control his...(unearthly voice) ISLAND MADNESS.
[Button room ... the hatch] REN: Now, listen, Cadet. I've got a JOB for you. See this button? (Stimpy reaches for the button) DON'T TOUCH IT! It's the HISTORY ERASER button, you FOOL! You ONLY press it once every 108 minutes, when the alarm sounds ... or EVERYONE DIES!
STIMPY: So what'll happen if I don't?
REN: That's just IT! We don't KNOW! Maayyybeee something bad?...Mayyybeee something good! I guess we'll never know! 'Cause you're going to guard it! You won't TOUCH it, until the alarm goes off, will you?
(Stimpy salutes. Ren leaves.)
REN: Hehhh...hehhhh...hehhhh...hehhhh...
(Stimpy marches back and forth, starting at the button.)
ANNOUNCER: Oh, how long can trusty Locke, I mean Cadet Stimpy hold out? How can he possibly resist the diabolical urge to push the button that could erase his very existence ... or NOT push it? Will his tortured mind give in to its uncontrollable desires?
(Announcer grabs Stimpy, forces him closer to the button.) Can he resist the temptation to push the button that, even now, beckons him even closer? Will he succumb to the maddening urge to eradicate history? At the MERE...PUSH...of a SINGLE...BUTTON! The beeyootiful SHINY button! The jolly CANDY-LIKE button! Will he hold out, folks? CAN he hold out?
STIMPY: YES I CAN!!! I WON'T PUSH IT AT ALL ... EEEEEYAAAHHHH! (alarm goes off, and he fights ... urge ... to ... push button!)
(More alarms go off. Ren, Stimpy, and Announcer stand around computer with button.)
ANNOUNCER: Tune in next week, as...
(Flash, explosion as they all disappear.)

I can't help thinking how quickly this season has gone by! I mean I know we have significantly fewer episodes this year, but previous seasons covered a month or more island time, it seems like this season has only taken up a week or so.

@304. Cecil Rose replied:

>@284 FenwayBen mentioned:

>>His [Hurley�s] mom telling him Jesus Christ is not a weapon (no, he's a mule for heroin!),

>That was the Virgin Mary, not JC.

Like she'd leave him out of the family business!

>>What are you doing back here so soon? And an even bigger question, how did Parvati end up with 5 votes?!?

>18 hours? We're too old for a longer celebration.

>I guess with intellects of the caliber of James, Jason, Erik, and Ozzie on the jury, anything can happen.

Ah, I was under the impression it was a weekend getaway. Congrats none the less!

And 3 of the 4 people you mentioned voted AGAINST Parv. Eliza's vote for her is the one that truly baffles me, isn't she supposed to be an educated attorney?

@313 meg said:
>Has anyone thought about who Ben's man on the boat might be??? Someone suggested Michael, but I still disagree. We haven't seen Cindy lately...could be her.

Of course! That entire episode where we saw Michael get hired, and the numerous times we ahve been told by Ben and Michael that Michael is Ben's man on the boat were in the alternate universe, they don't really count! I think it's Cindy's Scarf...

? 340. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer
You sure got a lot of mileage out of that crazy theory that Aaron isn't Kate's baby. On your Aaron is Jacob theory, not necessarily related but has anyone counted how many toes Aaron has?

? 337. Posted by: ealgumby
This time travel stuff is way beyond me, but it does seem like the Novikov Principle's argument that timelines must converge back to a "true" timeline in the future is a good possibility. Especially after reading the following from wiki:

A common example of the principle in action is the idea of preventing disasters from happening in the past and the potential paradoxes this may cause (notably the idea that preventing the disaster would remove the motive for the traveler to go back and prevent it and so on). The Novikov self-consistency principle states that a time traveler would not be able to do so. An example is the Titanic sinking; even if there were time travelers on the Titanic, they obviously failed to stop the ship from sinking. The Novikov Principle does not allow a time traveler to change the past in any way, but it does allow them to affect past events in a way that produces no inconsistencies�

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
for example, a time traveler could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses seconds before it occurs.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Providing that the rescuees do not re-emerge until after the time traveler first journeyed into the past, his/her motivation to create the time machine and travel into the past will be preserved. In this example, it must always have been true that the people were rescued by a time traveler and replaced with realistic corpses, there was no "original" history where they were actually killed, since the notion of "changing" the past is ruled out completely by the self-consistency principle.
************
A lot to chew on in the context of Lost....Oceanic wreckage found....Jack's "We have to go back" comment...Michael/Walt being off the island yet not being two of the six...The Oceanic 6's bogus story...Possible time discrepancy re: how many days they were on the island....Lapidus the pilot...

@343
This time travel stuff is way beyond me....

That's me talking, not quoting ealgumby. Sorry for the confusion.

Ohhh Stimson: How did OA815 get so far away from a standard centerline course to LAX? How did no one in Australian ARTCC (air traffic) not notice a trans-pacific flight so far off-course.

Well... maybe the flight flew over the island and got caught in the anomaly that hides the island, hiding the plane and trapping it as well. The island allegedly moves, either quickly or slowly, and drops the plane into the Sunda eventually.

Or the plane dragged the island there. Think of a dog, in a park, on a leash, attached to a folding lawn chair. The owner gets up and WHOOSH, its off to the rodeo, with the dog dragging the chair wildly, usually in a large circular route until it eventually snags on bushes or lodges between trees. The island must have snagged on 'the trench'.

Wait, I'm Lost. Do we believe the crash site in the Sunda Trench is real? I think the plane crashed on the island, maybe got trapped in the anomaly surrounding the island as DocH said, but that doesn't tell us where the island or the actual plane is (or was, before the Swan hatch purple sky, or after the Orchid Island Mover protocol.)

I think the wreckage in the Sunda Trench is fake, and the Membata rescue site is fake. If that's the case, then Ala�s is on the right track. Only Oceanic (and whoever developed the fakery) could speak to why the (fake)plane would be in that location. Cause I don't believe the real plane is or ever was in that location.

I'm still leaning toward a Vile Vortice explanation - plane enters a wormhole and ends up on the island in another dimension. But that's a whole different theory :)

@Scooby/334: The webpage you posted is fascinating.

I was following right along the no paradox/course correction path, but if the NP says that the course will be corrected to equal the status quo of the time-traveler's departure point, what happens in the case of more than one time-traveler?

What if Des is traveling back from 2007, but also from 2004? Could the events in 2004 be part of a course-correction for 2007? Is that why 2007 seems so perfect, and yet not?

@FenwayBen/342: "I think it's Cindy's Scarf..." (Ben's man on the boat)
Have we seen Scarfy on the boat? If Scarfy is TMOTB, could Scarfy also be TPITC? I would be devastated.

316/Clementine: Thanks for the EW transcript, it was very interesting, even if it does seem to put the final kabosh on the whole "fast forwards are not real" theory.

I would have paid a lot more attention in my college physics class if I had realized I would need to understand the space-time theory of Minkowski and Faraday's principles of magnetism to noodle out what the hell is going on in a tv show 20 years later...

At least the interview does seem to corroborate that they selected Abbadon's name (and its origin as a bringer of destruction) on purpose.

I was going to take my son to see Prince Caspian this weekend anyway, but know that I know that C.S. Lewis holds the key to freighter Charlotte, that's just so much bonus. Wait, the lion's not an allegory for Jesus, it's Jacob/or Ben/or Aaron/or Locke...and the magical wardrobe...why that's the magic box/special submarine/hole in the Tunisian Sahara...

===============O

@333 (half a Beast) Brian Douglas asked:

>What does TPTB (The Producers...?) and MIF (Meg is...?) stand for?

The Powers That Be

Meg IS First!
(Not to be confused with another very similar acronym found around the nets)

==============O

@342 FenwayBen retorted:

>>I guess with intellects of the caliber of James, Jason, Erik, and Ozzie on the jury, anything can happen.

>And 3 of the 4 people you mentioned voted AGAINST Parv. Eliza's vote for her is the one that truly baffles me, isn't she supposed to be an educated attorney?

But stupidity is contagious.

Wasn�t Eliza listed as law *student*? Oh, as as if a law degree was any insurance, let me remind you that 95% of all state legislators are lawyers.

==============O

@343 Scooby-Dude Bova�d:

>...for example, a time traveler could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses seconds before it occurs.

Sounds suspiciously like the plot of �Millenium�.

==============O

? 341. ealgumby: Ren & Stimpy dialogue:

Ren to Stimpy: Don't whiz on the sonic fence!

There's definitely a mystery person in the back of the plane.It could just be another Oceanic rep or Jacob,Ben,Desmond,Sawyer.

@236 undaunted

Had a guest over the weekend, so finding it hard to catch up with all the posts. Have jotted down comments, but I got to post 236 and all this talk about Season 1, Episode 1 has prompted some thoughts. Sorry if someone else has already brought this up. (I hope to catch up by tonight.) Like most of us, I did not know what I was getting into with the first episode of Lost, so didn't think much of it at the time. (Just chocked it up to TV story telling.) Does anyone think it strange that Jack was "thrown" from the plane...laying in the jungle while the wreakage, bodies and survivors were all on the beach? I can't recall, but were there any others thrown in different places in the jungle and not on the beach? Wonder if there is some correlation...? Okay...back to reading the posts...

I still think the wreckage is faked. The question is who would benefit the most from the search for said wreckage being called off? And who would be willing to go to such lengths (morally and financially) to do it? I can't wait to hear the "alternate" theory to the claim Widmore is responsible!

I think it's weird that when she tells Jack about Claire, and he reacts with obvious recognition to the name, Claire's mother doesn't ask him if he has met her on the plane. Just wanted to tell him (and unintentionally mess up his post-Island fairytale), not caring if he might have actually seen her? No picture to show him? + the whole 'I was in a coma' thing. Definitely feels to me like this meeting was intentionally planned by JIBAWAPO (Jacob/Island/Ben/Alpert/Widmore/Abbadon/Paik/Others) to mess with Jack.

Btw, when moving the letters around, JIBAWAPO also stands for:

Jin Always Protects Wife. Back Away, Obnoxious Island.

Ben Wants Juliet In A Perverted Alien Outfit.

Jack Is Always Annoying Others, Bernard Whimpers Pitifully.

Allright, that's enough. I'm glad that after this season, I'm forced to take a long vacation from the show. I've been wasting way too much time on this thing. It's become an excuse to not go out there and do more real stuff.

In the future, if any of you spot me at some lame Lost-Con, wearing a Hurley wig and calling every chick dude, please kill me on the spot :)

@DocH - Luv ya too!!! :)
Actually, I was first once - and boy did I get reemed for it. Someone actually said "it's bloggers like meg who ruin sites like this!" or something to that effect.

@FenwayBen #342 See, I told ya'. It's bloggers like me who catch the minute details that make/break the show.

@Cecil Rose #348
Meg IS First!
(Not to be confused with another very similar acronym found around the nets)

Nets? LOL, I had almost forgotten that one...

@everyone - the time travel/island moving/ location of the plane, wreckage, etc. is ALL beyond me. Yet, I still manage to enjoy the show at face value! And, I look toward this community to analyze it all for me. Thanks!!

The problem with the island/crash site being truly in Bali is that the freighter left Fiji, traveled a few days, to the island; Michael stated he left the island by boat and wound up in Fiji then to NY.

316- "It's unfair for the audience to go to ancillary sources in order to really understand the show."
Thanks Clementine for this interview. I learned a lot - but isn't it an ancillary source?

262 unladenswallow said: I believe now that the sounds heard by the castaways in the middle of the first night was the island being moved.
I like this idea too and just re watched pilot 1 to look for the stick. The noise that they hear sounds very much like the noise they hear in the plane when it starts to break up, and when the pilot is eaten and before they go to look for the pilot. i don't think it is.

In ref to branching time lines and getting back to the world line - I read the Foundation series a Looooong time ago. Wasn't that what they were doing using Human masspsychosomething? Instead of going through long wars and famine, science had figured out mathematically how to shorten these times of trial and tribulation and get back to progress as usual? (Didn't they have the founder of the science in a "box" so that they could talk to him when they needed direction???? very strange)
Maybe the Dharnma, working with the numbers did find a way to change the future,(their own mass psychology and Jacob in the cabin)) and the flash forwards we see are branches in time that will bring them back to the island to fix whatever it was that went wrong in time. I figure it must have to do with Desmond as he was there first. He should not have crashed the plane. Bad Desmond.

Also there is a logical problem with the course correction theory. In the example, you go back in time and switch out people who would be killed in a fire with corpses. By doing that, you actually change the future because those just people rescued had no future history in the predetermined time line. Since the saved persons now interact with people they would never have (since they would have died in the fire), that would create hundreds to thousands of daily changes in the courses of many other people's lives leading to a cascade of new time line tangents that would never correct back to the original time line.

Okay...just finished all the posts. Whew...will teach me for next season...can't let it go!!

@350 dreadednatty

Yes, there is someone there in the back/front of the cargo plane. I thought they showed the "legs" of the person after the OA rep smiled and nodded in that direction on her way back in the plane, but it was shortly after she started the post landing itinerary, there was a broad shot of her with all of that front area in the background. There is where you see the legs of maybe a man and I think I made out an outline/shadow of his(?) head. If this was a member of the crew, why show him at all...? I think we are pretty sure that it means something. Could be Michael...not really certain who else it would be. If it were Michael, would explain why he isn't sitting with the rest of them...they certainly don't consider him to be a "friend". But if it is Michael, then why not have him be one of the survivors...? He may not be popular with the rest of the gang, but he was also on OA 815...hmmm...

@260 Mizzed "Mirror image"

This post struck something in me. Since I had not been here with this fantastic Lost blog from the beginning, this may have already been discussed. Sorry, if it had, but post #260 made me think about this again. When the Lost logo comes on the screen...I think it is at the end of the episode...the one with "Lost" title kind of intertwined in the shot of an island. There is a mirror reflection below the island landscape that looks like a city of sorts. I thought that this may have some important play into what Lost is all about. Please let me know if this has been discussed and I will look at past reviews/posts. Thanks!

Regarding the noises and the possible tie to the island moving. The smoke monster makes a clanging sound - like chains moving. Could that be the "moving" of the island?

Im gonna go out on a limb here and propose perhaps the Island is a very large UFO that crash landed millions of years ago. That would explain the four toed statue. Perhaps the smoke monster's original purpose was to protect the four toed people and after they died off its not sure what to do.
And maybe thats how they will move the island/UFO by locke finding the control center under the newest hatch.

This has nothing to do with this episode but I'm hoping that someone can clear this up for me. In 'The Constant' the last time Desmond travels back in time is to 2004 where he meets Penny? Stupid observation but isn't Desmond on the island at that time? And if hes not then does that mean he gets off the island?

:O

@berkyo/356: "Thanks Clementine for this interview. I learned a lot - but isn't it an ancillary source?"

Ha! Very true. Somewhere, someone should be conducting an experiment with Lost viewers who are able to watch the episode each week and never search for more information. Do those people exist? Are they also fans of "According to Jim"?

@boodle/358
Looks like the man on the plane is just a crewman. How disappointing :)

Courtesy of DarkUFO:
http://tinyurl*com/67xdjb

@AC/362: Desmond's consciousness only time-traveled from 1996 to 2004. His body remained as it was in both timeframes, and did not travel. (Ah, Desmond's body - sorry, snap out of it, Clem!) Anyway, I'm sure you could find a better explanation in mac's review of "The Constant."

O===============

@345 DocH inquired:

>Ohhh Stimson: How did OA815 get so far away from a standard centerline course to LAX? How did no one in Australian ARTCC (air traffic) not notice a trans-pacific flight so far off-course.

Air Traffic Control Radars don�t follow very far on international flights. Over the vast Pacific, planes are pretty much on their own, navigationally. All the flight centers can do is take position reports from the aircraft. Of course today, with satellite navigation and inertial backup, finding one's position is not nearly the task it used to be.

O===============

@362 AC questioned:

>...In 'The Constant' the last time Desmond travels back in time is to 2004 where he meets Penny? Stupid observation but isn't Desmond on the island at that time? And if he�s not then does that mean he gets off the island?

If I recall correctly, Desmond traveled (in his mind) back to 1996, at which time he was in training with the British Army. At that time he tells Penny he needs to know the phone number she�ll be at 8 years in the future, on Christmas eve, 2004. His 1996 consciousness jumped to his 2004 self at the same time, on the boat, which is why he didn�t recognize Sayid.

O===============

Robislost/353: "Ben Wants Juliet In A Perverted Alien Outfit"
Nomination for Lost Lines contest - wacky acronym category!

BTW, just recently watched the remake of "3:10 to Yuma," and who did I spy with my little eye? KEAMY! And Wash from Firefly :)

? 362. Posted by: AC at May 20, 2008 12:08 PM

"This has nothing to do with this episode but I'm hoping that someone can clear this up for me. In 'The Constant' the last time Desmond travels back in time is to 2004 where he meets Penny? Stupid observation but isn't Desmond on the island at that time? And if hes not then does that mean he gets off the island?"

I understand what you are saying. He was "there" in that time already, I mean, his body was already there (don't woryy Clementine, you can have that one ALL to yourself!). So, what wasn't Pen, or father, or anyone surprised to see him? How could he be in the army, AND in the hatch pushing the button...???? Which, is what he should be doing during that time.

:O

Thanks for clarifying that, Cecil. I guess you posted right about the same time I did. I didn't realize it was 1996.

Re where the heck did Flight 815 really crash, where is the island, etc.?

It appears that we've got two theories at the moment:

1) Flight 815 left Sydney for LA on a normal flight path (slightly north of NE, as ealgumby said). Six hours into the flight, the radio went out & the flight turned back to head for Fiji. At some point after that (I don't recall if anyone said how long), 815 crashed, 1,000 miles off course. This information primarily comes from the pilot (in both senses; the human one & the Pilot Pt. 2 episode), when Jack, Kate, & Charlie found the injured pilot in the cockpit before he became island food.

This would indicate that the crash & therefore the island are somewhere in the South Pacific. Possible supporting evidence for this would be the Numbers, as when translated into GPS coordinates (if I'm remembering correctly, but I also think it works w/latitude & longitude) place the island in the South Pacific. Placement of the island in the South Pacific is also logical according to the expected flight path Sydney-LA. Finally, the pilot has no apparent reason to lie to Jack et al. about what happened to Flight 815.

2) Flight 815 left Sydney for LA, but for an unknown reason flew northwest across Australia & crashed south of Indonesia (on the conveniently uninhabited island of Membata?�which, according to Webster's online dictionary, means "ambivalent" in Indonesian). Supporting evidence for this is that the flight crashed during the day, not in the evening as would have been the case if Flight 815 flew east after departing in mid-afternoon from Sydney. (There's a screen capture in Lostpedia's "Pilot Pt. 1 & 2" episode description or transcript of Jack looking out the window of the plane. It's bright daylight & the plane is above a solid bank of clouds.)

I have a very hard time believing in Theory 2. First of all, it flies in the face of geography (a Sydney-LA flight wouldn't go northwest from Sydney, unless one was really taking the scenic route). Second, for Theory 2 to be true, the pilot(s) & crew would all have to been part of a conspiracy, or one of them would have noticed that the sun was in the wrong place/the plane was flying over land (assuming a break in the clouds), even if no passengers did. This conspiracy would then extend to the pilot's lying to Jack et al.

On the basis of the above evidence, I agree w/Clementine (#346) that the Membata site is faked & that Flight 815 was never near Indonesia. The weight of logical evidence supports Theory 1. The one logical sticking point in favor of Theory 2, though, is that the crash took place in daylight hours.

However, this still begs the question that undaunted & others have raised: surely someone would have asked why a Sydney-LA flight crashed off of Indonesia. We know there's a massive cover-up going on (although I don't think at this point we know definitely who's behind it, Ben or Charles, or to what extent Oceanic is involved in the cover-up). But why, if someone's trying to cover up what really happened to Flight 815 & the existence of the island, would the cover-up story be so flimsy? Wouldn't the cover-up wreckage & story be placed in the South Pacific where the flight should have been? The South Pacific's big enough that Faux 815 could have been placed somewhere near enough the correct flight path to not arouse suspicion but far enough away from the island to conceal its existence. The cover-up story is as poorly constructed, logically speaking, as the contention that Kate was six months' pregnant on the flight & that Aaron is only five weeks old at the time of rescue.

Random thought: There's been plenty of discussion over what "moving the island" means & it seems that the consensus is that the island moves in time rather than place. (The idea of the island moving in place, rather like Whack-a-Mole, is pretty hard to take.) But if the island can move in place, then was it in the South Pacific when the flight crashed, but moved to the Indian Ocean during one of the "purple sky" events?

I'm sure there's evidence/supposition that I've forgotten to include in this post, so please add on!

? 364. Posted by: Cecil Rose
Air Traffic Control Radars don�t follow very far on international flights. Over the vast Pacific, planes are pretty much on their own, navigationally. All the flight centers can do is take position reports from the aircraft. Of course today, with satellite navigation and inertial backup, finding one's position is not nearly the task it used to be.
- - - -
Roger that! Been there, done it - single seat fighter without GPS or LORAN. It is just that they were about 6 hours in when they went astray and then a thousand miles off-course. Fiji ATC would have had radar and voice contact at around 3-4 hours. That still puts them 5 hours away from the Sunda Trench - cruising at about 0.75 mach.

What really ticks me off is that the plane we see in the first few episodes doesn't have the range for a Sydney-to-LAX flight - not even the extended range version of the plane. They would have required a refuel stop in Honolulu or Hilo.

(I have this all mapped out on Google Earth & Falcon View, just nowhere to post/publish.)

@ 332/ ealgumby

I went back to lostpedia's episode guide, and in the pilot pages there is a screen cap of Jack, who was seated on the left side of the plane, looking out the window. There is a reflection off the wing which appears that the sun is on the left side of plane.

So there is direct evidence that at least Jack was aware of the plane's relative direction.

@DocH/368: "I have this all mapped out on Google Earth & Falcon View, just nowhere to post/publish"

I made a few maps on Google before that I shared by giving people the URL. Do you think that would work with your map? I watched this tutorial again, and at the end it says you can view your map in Google Earth.

http://maps*google*com/help/maps/mymaps/create*html

Not sure if that would work, but it would be cool if you could share it!

@230. Posted by: Clementine

Nice potential death stick observation.
Man - this show makes my head hurt like I've just been pummeled by a death stick!

Jedi Mind Tricks - I do not want to sell death sticks - I want to go home and re-evaluate my life!

@333. Posted by: Brian Douglas

re: What does MIF stand for?

LoL - Never thought about it til now, but it could easily be mixed up with another similar acronym that contains an "L", and has a much more provocative meaning.

Double LoL - I see Cecil picked up on the same tangent!

→ 370. Posted by: Clementine
http://maps*google*com/help/maps/mymaps/create*html
- - - -
Thanks I'll check it out.

And when I said 5 hours to the Sunda Trench earlier. I really meant 5 hours, IF they flew there direct from Sydney.

Final Podcast for Season 4
with Damon and Carlton

A few highlights are below. I won't even put spoiler tags on it, because really no new information. The entire audio podcast can be found here:

http://tinyurl*com/2469cq

Why did Jack and the rest of the Oceanic 6 decide to lie? That�s the big question going into the Finale.

Before Finale, the last episode �There�s No Place Like Home, Part 1� will re-air with an extended press conference scene with new questions.

In the Finale:
-Who put the bomb on the freighter and what its purpose is
-See what the Orchid looks like and more of the orientation film
-Probably more FFs

Q - Do bad guys on Lost know they are bad guys?
A - Keamy�s bad, but doing his job

Antipodes � regions that lie at opposite sides of the globe
Q - Does Lost involve travel through antipodal wormholes?
A - Very intriguing and good question, but conclusions derived may not be exactly correct

Yes, we�ll be seeing Walt again soon, and he�s special

Q - Is Abaddon working for Dharma? Widmore?
A - Can�t say who Abaddon works for yet, but he�s not at the top of the food chain

Carlton�s favorite character � Sawyer
Damon�s favorite character � Jack (but he misses the chest hair)

Q - Is the island not letting Jack die in the future (jump off the bridge), and not allowing Ben and Widmore to kill each other?
A - Yes, exactly right.

Radio silence until Comicon in July

&63 / Welh

If Ben wouldn't give himself up to save Alex, why now?

That bothered me very much. I guess Ben would allow Alex to die.

But would let himself be captured to save the island.

When Kreamy put the gun to Ben's head did you see him cross his buggy eyes ! I'd like a screen cap of that one !

I just got a feeling that Locke will be the bad guy and Ben will be the good guy at the end if for no other reason ILOVEBENXX will somehow "make it so".

In all the discussion re: the location of the island, the flight path, the rescue location, and the movement of the island, I think we're still caught too much thinking of the island in a conventional way, i.e. in a permanent, defined location at a specific, defined time.

There have been strong hints both in the series itself and in TPTB interviews that the island is a real place, but that the key to understanding and identifying its location involves the concept of spacetime- the physics concept of time as a 4th dimension that has developed out of Einstein's Theory of Relativity. The island's magnetic forces are so powerful they can literally bend light, and therefore time- and our perception of where and when the island is at any specific location or time.

I would embarrass myself by intelligently trying to explain a concept I barely grasp myself, but apparently the movement of the island through time (and therefore, through space) is theoretically possible, as explained in an article in the current Popular Mechanics:

"Michio Kaku, author of Physics of the Impossible, told us he thinks that Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse are using the island’s unique properties­—namely its electromagnet and the Casimir Effect hinted at in the Orchid Station orientation video—to open a transversible wormhole to different points in time and space. (Über-baddie Keamy seemed to verify that when he pulled the Orchid-Station-emblazed “secondary protocol” from the ship’s safe. He said the document would tell him “where Linus is going. If Linus knows we’re going to torch the island, there’s only one place he could go.”)"

"The Casimir Effect and transversible wormholes are real, cutting-edge science, Kaku says. “The Casimir Effect has to do with the energy of the vacuum,” he says. “It’s negative energy that has bizarre properties.” Black holes, he says, could open up a portal to another universe, but it would be a one-way trip because they’re unstable and can’t stay open on their own. Casimir energy could, in theory, keep the gateway from closing and create a transversible wormhole. According to Kaku, if an energy source like Lost’s big electromagnet were present, a black hole could open up and the island’s Casimir Effect could keep it open, creating a portal."

"We’ve already seen some time and space jumping on the show­. First, Ben’s arrival in the Tunisian desert in Dr. Halliwax’s Orchid Station parka hinted at the island’s ability to shuttle people around to different locations. And just as strange, it seems that the time difference between the freighter and the island is changing: In the previous episode, it was nighttime when Faraday used the sat-phone-turned-telegraph to ask what happened to the doctor, but it was daylight when the freighter folk received the message; Keamy didn’t slit his throat until later."

"While the wormhole theory might seem more likely given what we know about the Orchid Station, the amount of energy needed to move an island through a wormhole, Kaku says, is immense—you’d need the positive energy of a star and negative energy with a mass the size of Jupiter just to create a wormhole big enough for a person—and you’d need very advanced technology millions of years beyond our own to do it. “In principal, they are within the laws of physics,” Kaku says, “but it would be very advanced laws of physics, and it’s something we can’t exploit at the present time.” Plus, there could be consequences. “If you’re not careful, you could swallow up the earth in the process.”

@348 Cecil Rose
Sounds suspiciously like the plot of "Millennium."

Indeed. In fact the movie is referenced on the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle wiki page.

re: the location of the island and moving it

If the assumption is that the island is a physical presence on earth, the idea of moving it through a worm hole to another dimension in space creates the problem that the O6 are supposed to be at a Hawaiian press conference in a few days.

If the moving of the island is to move it in time, then the island remains in its physical place. If all the people on the island move to the new time coordinates, that does not diffuse the Keamy invasion. If time teleportation affects everyone on the island, then going backward in time would only delay the Keamy invasion.

All of the clues so far point infer that the island is real, in the South Pacific, a few days freighter ride from Fiji. It is accessible by boat, helicopter and submarine. Those traveling to/from the island use a bearing for navigation to/from its fixed location.

→ 375. Posted by: Mizzed

Wow! Michio Kaku - my alltime personal favorite Theoretical Physicist. Now HE's hot!! And a LOST fan. (sigh)

Thanks, Mizzed, for posting this one.

Another random thought: One of the books that Sawyer has read during the course of the show is A Wrinkle in Time. If you haven't read the book recently (Miss Longthought & I just read it for a book club), the "wrinkle in time" is called a tesseract & is explained by stretching a piece of material flat between two hands, then bringing the hands together w/the material then hanging in a loop below. This illustrates the possibility of traveling great distances very quickly, although the "how" of traveling in a tesseract (or "tessering") is left unexplained. I looked up "tesseract" in Wikipedia; those here w/an understanding of higher physics/math would need to turn the information into terms that (at least this layperson) could understand, but I did find an interesting factoid�that the description of a tesseract in A Wrinkle in Time more closely resembles a wormhole.

@ SamFin - 374
"I just got a feeling that Locke will be the bad guy and Ben will be the good guy at the end if for no other reason ILOVEBENXX will somehow "make it so"."

... Precicely!

----------------------------------------

I remember the first time I posted on this blog... It was scary. Everyone hated me.

Not as much as they hate boozy though.

I'm pretty sure it was because of my name, and because at the time, Ben was "meg's".

Now Keamey is megs... and Ben is mine =]

Or Beamey? Something like that.

Regardless, HALF of Ben is mine... the better half of course.

Regardless, HALF of Ben is mine... the better half of course.
→ 380. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

For God's Sake, Folks! DON'T ANYBODY ASK HER!!!!!

? 381. Posted by: davidrh
For God's Sake, Folks!
DON'T ANYBODY ASK HER!!!!!
==============
Interrogative? plz.

Would that be the ever widening, musk ox shaped backside?... or the forward-oreinted bug-shaped eye-side?

{i still expect him to flick-out a 14 inch tongue and lick those eyes}

@Mizzed/375

I've been trying to explain this concept for quite a while, but have focused on the practical aspect of "using" it ... space-time traversal is achieved by means of being rapdily accelerated (by essentially "falling" toward a rotating black hole) at an exact direction relative to the black hole. A rotating black hole will "drag" the fabric of spacetime around it, such that accelerations against the grain of the warped space, so to speak, can result in travel off the nominal "worldline" (meaning displacement in space, time, or both). Anyway, the "course" toward the black hole is the key to one's destination on the other side of the journey.

It is also crucial that the black hole (or I might add, theoretical very-advanced technological equivalant ... wiki "Tipler Cylinder" for an example of a theoretical "frame-dragging" machine) be rotating, to induce two effects: (1) the frame dragging, and (2) inner event horizons and outer Cauchy horizon (nothing gets out of the event horizon, but the spacetime-travel "course" will pass bewteen the two. The importance of the Casimir effect is to stabilize the otherwise inherently unstable Cauchy horizon.

It's also interesting to note that the collapse of a Casimir effect field has been known to produce sonoluminesence ... an eerie bright blue-to-violet glow. I would suggest that when the hatch button was not pressed, the Casimir effect field collapsed, releasing massive sonoluminesence (i.e., the purple sky), and destabilizing the Cauchy horizon, producing unpredictable effects (beginning with the implosion of the hatch). The failsafe key re-established the Casimir effect field, stabilizing the "wormhole" to/from the island.

@Ala�s_Longthought/379
"the description of a tesseract in A Wrinkle in Time more closely resembles a wormhole. "

Related to the previous comment ... First of all, I don't like the use of "wormhole" in regard to black-hole-induced spacetime-travel as described above ... it is more properly referred to as frame dragging effects. However, the word "wormhole" has caught on in popular parlance, and probably makes more sense to the average reader. In fact, a theoretical wormhole is another animal.

Rather than achieving spacetime offset via accelerated travel through warped space, a wormhole literally goes from point A in space to point B in space without ever "being" in between. Extra-dimensional geometry is suggested as a means to achieve this (most famuously in "Flatland" by Edwin Abbott, written in 1884, positing a 2-D world where the denizens are amazed by the ability of a 3-D person from our world to magically move from place to place in their world without ever "being" in between [as in poking his finger "into" 2-D Flatland, then picking it "up," a concept they cannot grasp, and then poking it back into Flatland elsewhere]. The 3-D protagonist, frustrated by the Flatlanders' inability to perceive the third dimension, plucks one of them "up" out of Flatland, and returns him to explain the concept ... this poor sap is rapidly deemed insane and locked up [hmmm ... Hurley?]. "A Wrinkle in Time" is the updated variation of "Flatland," invoking the 4-D concept of spacetime to likewise travel from point to point in 3-D "space" without ever having been in between. Strictly speaking, a tesseract is the 4-D geometrical equivalent of a cube. Travel from point to point in 3-D space can be achieved by following a 4-D axis in a tesseract). A better example of the wormhole concept is presented by the M�bius strip, a geometrical form sometimes suggested as a model of the continuous universe. If two opposite surfaces of the strip are brought "close together," than the "distance" between two very distant points in the universe could theoretically be very close from the perspective of a further dimensional view ... a wormhole is the theoretical construct to "connect" these disparate points with very little "actual travel." This is analogous to the example presented in "A Wrinkle In Time" with the hanging strip of material.

How's this for oddly coincidental ... check out an example wiki provides for a M�bius strip ... believe it or not, a SCARF!:

tinyurl.com/3f64tv

Anyway, the circumstantial evidence presented in Lost points to frame-dragging effects (either from a black hole, or advanced technology equivalent of a Tipler cylinder), rather than a "true" wormhole, IMO.

Not that that means anything.

@ MorBid0 - 382
"Would that be the ever widening, musk ox shaped backside?... or the forward-oreinted bug-shaped eye-side?"

To answer your question: the left side of course!!! =]

@379 Alaïs_Longthought revealed:

>Another random thought: One of the books that Sawyer has read during the course of the show is A Wrinkle in Time. If you haven't read the book recently (Miss Longthought & I just read it for a book club)...

It seems to be very popular in the Wake County library system. All versions (regular print, large print, cassette, and CD) have waiting lists for it.

Which ep was this in? I try to keep up with "Lost" referenced literary works, but must have missed this one somehow.

(See recent review in Random Topics of "The Invention of Morel", and upcoming ones of "VALIS" and "Survivors of the Chancellor".)

I had to read "A Wrinkle in Time" in 6th grade... and "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in 5th.

... I'm not sure that was relevant, but I felt like sharing =D (Evil smiley)

Has everyone seen this but me? It seems that the 3rd season is also available in "Blue Ray"- not sure what that is, it wasn't what I watched the 3rd season in. Anyhow, they have an expanded "access Granted" section of the bonus CD. I did not see this. It has the writer's giving definite answers to some questions. Sorry if you guys already know about it.

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Access_Granted#The_Island

@387 berkyo asked:

>Has everyone seen this but me? It seems that the 3rd season is also available in "Blue Ray"- not sure what that is, it wasn't what I watched the 3rd season in.

Blue ray is the comnpeting version of High Definition DVD technology that just won the fight to become the next-generation DVD format. It uses a blue (ultraviolet) laser to encode, which operates at higher frequencies (shorter wavelengths) than the vanquished competitor HD-DVD. The shorter wavelength means it can encode in smaller spaces, thus get more information (film time, extras) on the same size DVD.

This wormhole/blackhole stuff is so far over my head that I'm just going to tag along and see where it takes us. But, has anyone factored in that true North is not North on this island. Remember Locke's compass?

→ 383. ealgumby: Possible physics of LOST:

Thanks for the info...I went over to Wikipedia & read the entries on Cauchy horizons, tesseracts (again), Casimir effects, etc. I definitely wasn't cut out to be a theoretical physicist/mathematician (or are we in the quantum field here? or are they the same?), but it does make more sense now (I think).

Let me see if I have this at least somewhat right: travel to & from the island is by way of a rotating black hole, approached on a heading that has changed in recent days from 325 to 305, possibly due to the most recent collapse of the Casimir effect & the destabilization of the Cauchy horizon, which was caused by Locke's manipulation of the situation in the Swan hatch to prevent the button from being pushed. Desmond's failsafe key has restored the Casimir effect & thus stabilized the Cauchy horizon, at least temporarily, although this may be changing based on Danny's reactions to his various experiments & the apparent time shifts between the freighter & the island. Wow, I feel like I'm writing the final answer in a final exam & am wondering if I'm going to pass! ; )

Do I want to know what a theoretical wormhole is?

Something that's probably not related, but I'll toss it out there just for fun: tesseracts are 4D, as is Minkowski space. And a rotating tessaract has a good bit of resemblance to a bunch of six-degree-freedom-of-motion systems stuck together.

→ 385. Cecil Rose: A Wrinkle in Time:

According to Lostpedia, Sawyer was reading A Wrinkle in Time in Deus Ex Machina (S1E19). This is when it was discovered that he's far-sighted & needs glasses. I read the transcript for that episode & there's no mention of any of the books that appear in it, though, so if the information is correct it must be that the book appears as a visual but isn't verbally referenced.

→ 386. ilovebenjaminlinusxx: The Lion, the Witch, & the Wardrobe:

Hey, we've had polar bears, why not toss a lion in there too? ; )

ALERT ALERT ALERT

The ABC website shays they're reshowing two episodes tomorrow (Wednesday). Presumably the "enhanced" versions.

FRom the site:
""Something Nice Back Home" / "Cabin Fever"
Wed May 21 8/7c
When Jack's health is seriously compromised, Kate and Juliet must learn to work together in order to save him; Locke is enlightened as to the whereabouts of Jacob's cabin."

@ Let me see if I have this at least somewhat right: travel to & from the island is by way of a rotating black hole, approached on a heading that has changed in recent days from 325 to 305, possibly due to the most recent collapse of the Casimir effect & the destabilization of the Cauchy horizon.
_______
Someone mentioned a few months ago that 325 may be from the South end of the island and 305 may be from farther North on the island.
-T2

So....

Just re-watched the episode and thought I'd chime in a little.

re: The fate of Jin

Previously, I was willing to bet the farm that Jin was still alive, based on the ambiguous words of Sun when she was visiting his grave with Hurley.

This episode really tries to leave the impression that Jin is dead, at least from Sun's perspective. However - it is difficult to process the truth, as we are well aware that Sun is a skilled liar. Even as a child, she could stare down her father, lie to him (ie who broke the glass ballerina), and not even flinch in the slightest!

So - Does Sun really blame her father for Jin's death for the reasons stated, or is there more to this than meets the eye?

If the Paik/Widmore speculated connection pans out, perhaps Widmore will turn out to be #2 person that Sun blames for Jin's death?

Perhaps this better explains why she went took over her fathers company?

Many of us have been bothered by the fiscal realities involved in obtaining controlling interest, and highly doubt that any settlement would be high enough to make such a move.

Perhaps Paik and Widmore are connected, but not on the same side. Widmore has deep pockets - maybe he helped Sun with $$, or better yet - maybe Penny?

In any case - still clinging to Jin being alive, though no longer certain if Sun is actually aware of this.

Time will tell....

I'm not sure if someone has already raised this question... and also not sure if the answer it blatantly obvious - Lost is hard to keep up with!
But was the funeral for Christian Shepard actually a memorial? Considering his body was being flown back from Australia and must have 'gone down' with the plane? And why have the memorial only now? Surely if Jack was thought dead they would have held a memorial for him and his father?

Great review again!

So sorry about the multiple posts!! My computer decided to freeze and I didn't think my intial attempt had worked... apologies!

Regarding the division of Ben between ilovebenlinusxx:

If you gauge out Ben's eyes, and rip out his brain - then place that brain in Keamy...that'd do it. iheartben can have the rest.

Wow! I can get so sick sometimes...

@394. Posted by: britishbex

Yikes - felt like you were stuttering!

It was memorial for Christian (no body), and you are right - it really makes no sense whatsoever that it was held upon Jack's return, other than to serve as a means for Jack to meet Claire's mom.

@397. Posted by: shikotee

Could have had the memorial for Jack to say goodbye. He mentioned that he had his dad's eulogy written on a cocktail napkin...Jack needed closure.

@398. Posted by: boodle

Just does not seem logical, though I imagine this rather suits Jack's personality!

I wonder though - how did Mama Sheppard handle things when 815 crashed? Correct me if I am wrong, but did not Jack mention (while arguing to be included on 815) that funeral arrangements had been made already?

When 815 went missing, did she delay this? Did she have a service for Christian (without body), and then have one for Jack as he was assumed dead? Or did she do both at the same time? Can you imagine how stressful things must have been for her?

Still - idea of second wake service was pretty lame, but could see Jack doing something like that.

With that said, I would imagine the service would have been more of a media frenzy, considering Jack's O6 status. I don't buy into the fact that the place was as empty (unless it was strict invite only security), but this does not explain how Claire's mom gained entry (or how she was even aware of the service).

The man in black fled into the Jungle.

The gunslinger followed.

Man in black = Ben
gunslinger = John Locke "KnifeSlinger"?

LoL - Now I'm starting to stutter!

After hitting post, I received an error parsing message of some sorts. Never seen that before. So, I went back, and hit post again....

88. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Thanks

399. Posted by: SamFin

I re read (scanned) the first books in the Black Tower series because I had put it down a while ago. I am up to Suzanna's story. (Not sure I like this one - prob why I put is aside) Looking at the catchup by King I can see the connections with Lost. I had forgotten a lot of it.I will use the off week to finish . Thanks for reminding me!

229/Mr_Naysayer "This theory may be a bit out there, but what if we find out that Kate's baby isn't really hers and it is the same Aaron that Claire had on the island? Maybe there is only one baby Aaron!?!?!"

Uh, helloooo. Impossible.

First of all, in "Eggtown" we hear Aaron call Kate "Mommy." Now, some would argue that Aaron calling Kate, "Mommy" in and of itself is enough proof. After all, doesn't a kid know his own mom? But I will take it a step further...

We all know that Claire is Australian - as evidenced by that outrageous accent of hers. Australians give birth to other Australians. So if he were indeed Claire's kid he would in fact be Australian and would not have said "Mommy." He would have said to Kate -with a thick Australian accent, "'ey you, possin' as me mum" and followed it up with some remark about placing a small crustacean on a barbeque and quickly left to wrestle a croc.

But he didn't now did he? No, he called Kate, "Mommy" - absent any Australian accent - thereby proving that he is not Australian and is indeed Kate's biological son.

Come on people. You should have caught this. Sometimes I wonder if we're even watching the same show!

? 405. Posted by: bcre8ve

That was hysterical!

@405. Posted by: bcre8ve

This is why I love this blog... I may not completely wrap my mind around some of the theories presented (although I do try and blood sometimes trickles from my ear...), there is such intelligent interchange of ideas and points that one may have missed after 3-4 viewings, but I am almost always entertained!! Thanks bcre8ve for the much needed chuckle while I'm at work!

A brand new article on "Time Asymmetry" and "Multiverses" that a few of you might enjoy. 6+ pages total. First page says enough.

tinyurl.com/4cke5y

→ 159. Posted by: Mizzed
Then again, I could be wrong and the final season could end with the entire cast waking up in bed together with Bob Newhart and Suzanne Pleshette.

Yeah, I'm a little late commenting on this...but the above statement is totally not feasible since unfortunately, Suzanne Pleshette passed away in January.

Instead it's rather likely that the Lost cast will wake up in the shower with Bobby Ewing.

*403 Berkyo

I hated Suzanna also. But you do get to meet Mordred "an ornery critter if there ever was one"

And nobody but King would have a baby born in a place called Dixie Pig !

Let me know when you get to the Dark Tower. It really exists !!! Maybe

Let's see
Rose - Orchid
Mordred - Arron
This could get interesting.
I would have died if Ben had told Locke. On this island there are 3 doors and behind each door ..... that wouldn't work as the doors couldn't be big enough for a submarine could it?

One other point. I read the original Gunslinger in 1982. And had to wait 22 years to finish the Dark Tower series. Now that dedication !

409. Posted by: SamFin

I asked you not to say anything! Now I am unkindly disposed towards this Mordred fellow. Wasn't Mordred Arthur's nemesis?
----------------------------------
Correct me if I am wrong....and I am often.

In the pilot part 2 Charlie is remembering the crash. He went from his seat up towards the front of the plane to the bathroom that was right behind the cockpit. The crash begins and he gets maybe 2 seats up the aisle and belts himself in.

That means he was in the front end of the plane in the jungle that he and Jack and Kate just hiked to when the plane went down? So how is he on the beach with the people from the middle?

@Ala�s_Longthought/390
"Do I want to know what a theoretical wormhole is?"

I have been giving the whole wormhole concept more thought, and have determined it could be worked into the Lost script, and perhaps makes more sense.

Let me tackle this concept one more time, and then explain how it works with frame-dragging ideas as described earlier �

In efforts to understand the mathematics behind various cosmological theories, physicists often suggest various �manifolds,� or geometric shapes, as models of the physical universe. Many different manifolds with different topologies have been suggested for this purpose, with common forms being the torus (i.e., doughnut-shaped), sphere, and Moebius strip, among many others (more often than not, too complex to easily visualize in everyday experience, and only approximated by these �everyday� forms � in the same way it�s hard to wrap your mind around what a tesseract �looks� like, so sometimes you�ll see 3-D projections of tesseracts [equivalent to the 2-D projection of a cube being a drawing of a cube] often referred to as �hypercubes,� looking like a smaller cube suspended within a bigger cube by its corners, but I digress). For the purposes of argument, and to keep things simple, let�s go with the sphere, as I think it makes things easiest to understand.

So, imagine the universe is represented by the surface of a partially-inflated balloon (as an aside, the �expansion of the universe� first characterized by Edwin Hubble based upon detected redshift of radiation from distant galaxies, can be thought of as slow inflation of the balloon). Now consider the effect of gravity upon this manifold � a commonly used analogy is to represent �gravity wells� as depressions in the surface of the balloon, such as gently pressing the tip of a dull pencil into the balloon. This creates a little dimple in the surface, and objects in orbit around such a gravitational source can be thought of as slowly rolling around this depression, like those �coin wells� you may have seen at the mall, where you roll the coin down the ramp and it slowly goes round and round the well, until eventually falling in (the difference is that the coin falls in because of slowing down due to friction, while planets around a star don�t follow such a �death spiral,� as empty space doesn�t provide enough friction to slow them down, so they just keep going round and round in stable orbits).

Now, imagine a black hole as being a really big depression in the surface of the balloon � this is difficult to �accurately� model, since it would be more like a really, really steep and deep depression in the balloon�s surface, while not being much �bigger� than the depression produced by the pencil at the surface. However, for the sake of argument, lets say a black hole is represented by pressing your forefinger into the weakly-inflated balloon. Now let�s say there�s another black hole somewhat nearby, represented by pressing your thumb into the balloon. It�s easy to imagine pressing your thumb and forefinger together, such that they touch within the balloon, separated only by the skin of the balloon. Now imagine you could fuse the balloon�s skin together at the very point your thumb and forefinger �touch,� without popping the balloon, leaving a small hole/tube directly through the middle of the balloon�s interior. This is essentially how a wormhole is supposed to work.

Note that the �gravity wells� of each black hole are still on the surface topology of the balloon, and traveling from one black hole to the other by �normal� means would require one to traverse the distance between your thumb and forefinger across the outer surface of the balloon; in terms of the universe, this distance could be many light years of space. However, the �pits� of each gravity well occupy the same space (or more properly, spacetime). In this sense, going through a �wormhole� would not be as typically shown in sci-fi movies, with the travelers going through some long, twisting, unusually-lighted tunnel. Instead, it would be more like stepping through a doorway between two rooms, except the rooms would happen to be in different buildings, miles apart!

Also note that in order to traverse such a wormhole, the same basic requirements hold as previously mentioned for the �frame-dragging� concept. Namely, there would need to be rotating black holes on both sides, with stable Cauchy horizons, such that the traveler could pass through without having to enter the inner event horizons. As such, the �evidence� pointing to frame-dragging could also point to a wormhole. However, the reason I originally discounted a wormhole is because one has no control over the entry and exit points � the black holes are fixed in spacetime. Then I realized though, that the same frame-dragging effects could be applied to the black hole(s) associated with the wormhole. Maybe a combination of effects is being called upon in Lost.

This could also explain a few things. For example, how the plane ended up crashing in daylight; maybe the island is at the other end of the wormhole, perhaps on a different planet. Maybe this planet was/is populated by the four-toed people? I know, now I�m *really* starting to reach, but it makes some sense.

The �course� would still be essential to either altering one�s destination on one side of the wormhole, or to successfully passing through to the �other side.� The island would then be �uncharted,� because it doesn�t exist on planet Earth. There are a ton of holes in this variation of the theory, but come on, there are a ton of holes in this line of thinking in general! Just for instance, why do travelers sometimes end up in odd places/times on the Earth side of the wormhole (like Tunisia), yet always end up on or near the island on the other side? If the island is on another planet, why don�t people �off-course� sometimes end up in its equivalent of Tunisia, or wherever, far from the island? The only thing that makes any sense to me, would be restriction of �course� into the wormhole, imposed by the planet�s surface (i.e., travelers can only affect their direction within an entry plane, roughly defined by sea level, rather than from any direction in 3-D space), and course entry within this plane restricts destination �offsets� to time-only on the island side, but always the same approximate destination/location. Kind of a reach, but the only thing that makes sense.

Yet there I go again, pretending ANY of this makes sense! :)

My issue with the black hole/wormhole theory is that a black hole is an intense gravitational pull, drawing matter into it from the surrounding outer horizon. On earth, scientists can see black holes lights years away. The image of a black hole is like the photograph of a hurricane as it swirls surrounding matter into its dark eye. To have a stable black hole, needed for time travel, it should be clearly visible in the Pacific Ocean, less than a 1000 miles from Fiji.

@DocH/407

Thanks for the link ... interesting reading.

I also saw this story today at CNN:

tinyurl.com/5alu4z

The point I found of interest here is the possibility of essentially creating "a black hole in a box," and that black holes do not need to be planet munchers. The black hole(s) used to get to/from the island on Lost also do not need to be gigantic; just large enough to induce frame-dragging effects and with a "space" large enough between the horizons to pass through.

A rather small black hole would also have a very localized region of space-warping/frame-dragging, such that a rather "large" object attempting to pass through could experience serious tidal forces between the front and back ends of the object. Perhaps these tidal forces are why the trip has been shown/suggested as being very rough on the helo and sub, and perhaps why 815 broke up during its traversal ... it was simply too big, and not strong enough, to withstand the different gravitational forces at its nose and tail, so literally torn apart.

After watching the episode again:

In the opening scene, as the camera pans back from the clouds to the interior of the cockpit, there is a box on top of the dashboard of the plane (forgive my techno-speak, lol) that reads “Altitude” and shows four zeros. Is this the altimeter, and if so, why would it be at zero?

On the beach, when they hear Keamy on the sat phone talking about the Orchid, why doesn’t Daniel tell Jack and Kate whatever he knows about the doomsday protocol? Why does he let them go off into the jungle after the helo? He seems to want to get everyone to safety, so why not tell the truth?

Once again, why would Jack, Sayid, Sun and Hurley participate in the lie that Aaron is Kate’s son, especially when they know she is a fugitive and facing criminal charges? Maybe Claire told them before they left the island that she wants Kate to care for Aaron, and not her family?

If Sun took over Paik Industries as a resource to search for the island and Jin, wouldn’t she want to start the search immediately after she gains control? She tells her father that first she will have her baby, and then they will discuss the future of the company. Doesn’t sound too urgent about her plans, whatever they are.

At Hugo’s birthday party, Sayid is already wearing a wedding ring. And does Nadia have major sweat stains, or is that just an unfortunately patterned dress? ;)

The dude that’s captaining the boat now seems very willing to take orders from Des.

What does Jin say to Sun in Korean, after they find the explosive? He ends the sentence with, “Now!” Is he just telling her to get back up on deck, or something more? Why didn’t they subtitle it?

Do Sayid and Kate know who Alpert is? Have they ever met before?

Who’s watering the plants at the Orchid? Does Patchy have a green thumb?

re Aaron being Kate's Aaron or Claire's Aaron

I would also like to submit for your consideration another clue you seem to have overlooked. Obviously the woman at Christian's memorial is not the grandmother of the baby in Kate's arms. She very clearly identifies her daughter as Clee-ya. And the reason for Jack's expression will be revealed in an upcoming future flash where Jack and Kate are having breakfast at Mr. Cluck's Chicken prior to the service.

@welh/412

While a small black hole wouldn't necessarily be as obvious as you might think, one would expect it to keep growing, in which case it eventually would become obvious, unless somehow constrained.

The other option is technological, such as a Tipler Cylinder, or other advanced device capable of inducing frame-dragging effects. I'm not sure what the implications are in terms of neededing a Casimir effect generator with such a device though, so the black hole idea seems to fit the Lost evidence better (so far). Perhaps there is some advanced tech to be introduced on Lost (in the Orchid Station basement?) which can keep the black holes from growing?

While the possibility of two small black holes residing on planets at opposite ends of a wormhole (or even one, looping through "time" back into itself?) is hard to swallow, perhaps this where we need to suspend disbelief, and bring theological issues into play.

Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof are very funny... I kind of have that "random" sense of humor, and they do too. I don't know, I like reading/listening/watching that kind of stuff.

@ meg - 396
No!!! The brain is the best part!!! That's why I picked the left side... because the left side of his brain is the "analytical/ben" side.

----------------------

I love how it's so easy to support an un-realistic theory with LOST.

I mean, using Mr_Naysayer's "Maybe Aaron is really Claire's son" blah blah blah, I bet someone like ealgumby, or maybe even Mr_Naysayer if he tried, or even Vacc could make that sound convincing and make someone who didn't know it was certain believe it.

I'm not sure if I said that right, but you know what I mean.

I think ealgumby did that before with a "DUH" theory, a while back. I can't remember what it was about.

Very funny.

ONCE AGAIN EVERYONE: This is a show of allusions. Everything alludes to something!!!

4-12 (83) There's No Place Like Home (1)

Six escape the isle
Inside a web of deceit
Where are all the rest?

? 411. Posted by: ealgumby
RE: black holes/balloon analogy/frame dragging/wormholes/and all that other scientific stuff.

I couldn't have said it better. ;-)

Seriously, every time I read one of your posts, I say to myself: Who IS this guy????

Regardless, I'm always glad you landed here and I always feel smarter after I read your entries. At least for a while. Until the information bleeds out of my nose.

353/Robislost "In the future, if any of you spot me at some lame Lost-Con, wearing a Hurley wig and calling every chick dude, please kill me on the spot"

If that happens and you are indeed killed on the spot, can I have your Camaro and your $150 mil?

242/Genghis "My current Camaro odometer reading...052908"

Assuming thats 05290.8

Only 42860.8 more miles to go. Make sure you reset your trip odometer at 47917.4.

@Gumby
- - - -
I read the CNN article on black holes. It supports my ideas somewhat. The 'portal' on the island is very small (not a planet muncher). No incredible, unsurvivable acceleration to near light speed. The phenomena is so flat that it is almost two dimensional... height, width, almost no depth. Associated gravity is only slightly higher than surrounding gravity. No one is 'drawn' to the event horizon... you can easily approach it and move away - as long as you don't cross any portion of it... then you are going thru it. Passing thru is almost instanteous and not harmful, just dis-orienting (Ben on back in Tunisia). The portal exists almost in a microstate, a tiny bounce (flux) in time. Question is, as a small "Arrow in Time", does it go both directions in time?

@ 416/ ealgumby
If the black hole is a small box, that could be used for individual time shifting, that's one thing. But if you are going to shift an entire island . . . . it would have to be bigger than a bread box.

Which gets me to thinking that Locke's line that we are going to move the island is basically a metaphor and not a physical displacement. Example, if moving the island is really an electro-magnetic signal that changes compass bearings so when the boat or heli uses the old bearings it reaches a new location in the middle of the ocean. Magic - - the island is gone but it is believed to be gone.

re: 421. To finish that rambling thought... Richard Alpert seems unaged in all of the different flashback timelines, appearing immortal-ish. Maybe he is JUST ONLY 35 years old. Maybe he just gets to certain (recent) events and then travels back to attempt to change the future of those he contacts, so things are in his favor now.

Alpert in early Dec 04 after reviewing Lockes' personnel folder: "What? That Abaddon guy tried to recruit Locke in the hospital? We can't have this. I'll go back and try to recruit Locke in High School. If that doesn't change the present, I'll go farther back and..." (you get my point.)

This may also explain alot about Desmond - forces trying to recruit pre-island Des, much like Locke was being recruited.

@Mr_Naysayer/340
"Ealgumby - help me develop this theory! This one may actually have some threads of possibilty in it..."

@DocH/423
"Richard Alpert seems unaged in all of the different flashback timelines, appearing immortal-ish. Maybe he is JUST ONLY 35 years old. Maybe he just gets to certain (recent) events and then travels back to attempt to change the future of those he contacts, so things are in his favor now."

Didn't forget you Mr. Naysayer ... just couldn't come up with something interesting ... try this on for size ...

Richard Alpert is Aaron! From the future! Not only that, but RA/Aaron is ALSO Jacob! Jacob(RA/Aaron) needs to be contained by the "ash ring" to keep him from contacting RA and/or Aaron, else the hysteria suggested by the two Bunny #15's touching in the orchid Vid! THAT'S why Claire had to leave Aaron behind, before venturing to the cabin ... she's in an apparent state of drug-induced rapture, because her SON (Jacob/RA) spoke to her!

Is that off the wall enough for ya?

? 424. Posted by: ealgumby
- - - -
Good start... but it may take eight more months, to Jan 09, for that theory to start filling-in the training bra you just bought it.

Still, I like the part where Richard Herbert Alpert went back to the late '60s - early '70s and made all of that great music with the Tiajuana Brass.

411. Posted by: ealgumby
And everyone else bouncing ideas back and forth.

Thank you so much for the time travel for dummies. I understood the balloon thing perfectly. These are all REAL scientific theories? wow.

It may not be exactly what is happening on the show, but it is fascinating.
And it COULD be what is happening on the show. Or something like it.

Does it have to be another world?

411/413/416-ealgumby

One reason I landed on this blog was the quality of the thought process- those were really outstanding posts on a very difficult topic.

C&L have said that they have mapped out a consistent internal construct that involves theoretical science, rather than a supernatural explanation. In addition, Clementine recently posted an interview that affirmed that the events we are watching are "real", i.e. they will not paint themselves into a "that was all a dream" type corner.

Even so, I would be very surprised if the ultimate solution involves alien technology and/or the island existing on another planet. I could be very wrong on this, but intuitively it just doesn't seem to fit- it would almost be too tidy.

If I understood your posts correctly, the island would be a stationary place, and only objects or people would travel through this "black hole in a box", as opposed to the entire island.

I know others have argued that the island is in a fixed place on our earth, but in a world of satellite imaging where every square mile of the globe is mapped and remapped, how could you possibly explain the time and money both Charles Widmore and Penny Widmore have spent to locate the island?

It would also be inconsistent with Ben's statement to Widmore that he would never find the island (presumably a flash forward, since he already found it once with the freighter crew).

And even if the island could be "moved" to different co-ordinates, how could that fact possibly be concealed?

One of the fascinating things about Lost is how it seems to combine cutting edge physics with the major philosophical questions about God and the nature of the universe. Perhaps the physicist (man of science, i.e. Jack) and the philospher (man of faith, i.e. Locke) are both needed to solve the final puzzle.

The more I study the references placed in the episodes, the more I'm gravitating to the parallel universe or multiverse concept that Hawking, Kaku and others have theorized about, with the blackhole/wormhole concept serving as the portal or intersection.

In other words, the freighter didn't locate the island- it located the portal that allowed access to the island. Rather than moving the island, you move the location of the portal.

The multiverse concept that every possible action and decision is played out somewhere also seems to fit with the issues of choice, free will and destiny that figure so prominently in many of the lost character story arcs.

This theory is also very consistent with many of the literary references already discussed- Baum's Oz, Lewis' Narnia- as well as Hindu cosmology (the Dharma initiative).

? 427. Posted by: Mizzed
... but in a world of satellite imaging where every square mile of the globe is mapped and remapped...
- - - -
that is part of the gravity, EM, science part of it. The island isn't visible. It is not that the island is not there. It is just that light reflecting off of it can't escape to the point that it can be seen. Swan Hatch implodes - purple sky - Faraday saying the light on the island is odd - Faraday notices how the vegetation grows oddly... plus folks 'accidently' run into in balloons, sailboats, drug pplanes, etc...

DocH/428: "that is part of the gravity, EM, science part of it. The island isn't visible. It is not that the island is not there. It is just that light reflecting off of it can't escape to the point that it can be seen."

I've had the same thought before re: the magnetic force on the island distorting the light and therefore the visibility, but ultimately discarded it b/c the island is clearly visible to its inhabitants- other than Faraday's remark about the light, no other characters have mentioned that the light is any different than it would be anywhere else.

In addition, the island is visible to at least some flying objects (Frank can safely land the helicopter), and at the horizon level, there have been many occurrences where characters have been on boats at significant distance from the island and had no problem navigating back to the island by sight (Jin and Bernard's fishing expeditions, Desmond and Charlie rowing to the spot over the Looking Glass, the zodiac ferrying escapees back and forth from the freighter, etc.).

If there is a scientific explanation on how an object can go from completely invisible to fully visible at a particular, specific distance, rather than the normal sight progression of invisible/to dim/to hazy/to visible, it would be interesting to hear about it.

→ 411, 413, 416. ealgumby: Theoretical wormholes, etc.:

Thank you very much...very clear description! I "got" the balloon idea perfectly.

Regarding the issue of why people/things end up in various places but all seem to start from the island, could there be more than one "wormhole" & all "wormholes" start from the island? I visualize it as a sort of daisy, w/each "wormhole" making a sort of petal & the island being the yellow center (or a brown center, if one envisions a black-eyed Susan instead).

→ 418. Cecil Rose: Haiku:

Once again a great verse! I think there should be a section of the site for all your haiku so they can be read in order start to finish.

→ 422. welh: "Magically" moving the island:

That seems very logical & much more practical than actually moving the entire island in either time or space.

431th??

@415. Posted by: Clementine
My contribution here will be poultry compared to your fine wit.

After seeing the replays tonight, here are some random thoughts.

Did anyone comment previously about how awesome Jin was when he threatened Charlotte in Korean? He and Bernard are cool. They should have a spinoff show -- "Jin and the Dentist" or something.

Here's a farfetched theory -- Sawyer is really Jack. My evidence? He suddenly changes from Mr. Con Man to Aaron's Protector. And the kicker: Miles comments to Sawyer, "What are you, her big brother?"

I wish someone could do a sound check because I am even more convinced on a second viewing that the voice in the shower was Juliet at first....and not just because she had appeared in the preceding scene on the island. The vocal pitch was much closer to Juliet's than Kate's until she came out of the shower. There's something very fishy going on.

Also, I think Kate's evasivenss with Jack off the island will become important. Maybe she's working for Ben, as Sayid is. Her mission could be to keep Jack happy and, more important, off the island OR it could be to be Aaron's keeper for when he replaces Locke.

Here's my prediction: season 4 ends with the same scene as season 3 ended, with Jack saying, "We have to go back." But now we'll know why.

@410 Berkyo:

No No I met ornery in a cute little momma's boy kinda way. A real charmer.

Good catch on Mordred being Arthurs Nemesis. But I'm sure that's only a Coincidence.

Only thing you can be sure of when the time comes it will be a WTF moment as nobody can figure out Stephen King at his best.

It took me 2 days after finishing the book before I could get a handle on what I thought of the series.

Enjoy !

@Mizzed/427

>>>
C&L have said that they have mapped out a consistent internal construct that involves theoretical science, rather than a supernatural explanation. ...

Even so, I would be very surprised if the ultimate solution involves alien technology and/or the island existing on another planet. ...

I know others have argued that the island is in a fixed place on our earth, but in a world of satellite imaging where every square mile of the globe is mapped and remapped, how could you possibly explain the time and money both Charles Widmore and Penny Widmore have spent to locate the island? ...

The more I study the references placed in the episodes, the more I'm gravitating to the parallel universe or multiverse concept that Hawking, Kaku and others have theorized about, with the blackhole/wormhole concept serving as the portal or intersection.

In other words, the freighter didn't locate the island- it located the portal that allowed access to the island. Rather than moving the island, you move the location of the portal.
>>>

Several points ... first of all, I prefer to reference Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse as "D&C" rather than "C&L" (or L&C or C&D), just because of the poetic justice invoked by "D&C," aka in medical terms known as dilation and curettage ... won't go non-PC here and define it, but suggests how I feel about what they are doing to my mind with this show! Damon & Carlton ... D&C ... apropos, and I'm sticking with it!

I have given more thought to an idea I just kinda threw out there at the end of my #416 post ... what if the black hole is a wormhole to itself in a different time? Consider this scenario ... as I mentioned in #411, the universe is known to be expanding, and by the analogy I presented there, let's suppose the "current" universe is represented by a slightly bigger balloon than the "past" universe, represented by a slightly smaller one within the current one. Now let's suppose that the "wormhole" is a connection between the same place in the "old universe" and the "current universe", represented by somehow pressing the "inner balloon" to touch the "outer balloon." I have several theories of how this could happen (involving the Moebius Strip concept), but let's just say, for the sake of argument, that it does ... then there could be a "wormhole" from the same "place" space-wise to different times ... essentially a wormhole "to itself" in different times. This would simplify the situation entirely ... there would not need to be two rotating black holes at opposite ends of a wormhole (increasing the likelihood by many orders of magnitude), nor another habitable planet at the other end (yet another several orders of magnitude in likelihood), nor the likelihood that the black hole at the other end is stable (blah blah blah likelihood) ... in short, it goes from metaphysically impossible, to reasonable.

Re mapping the planet ... as it happens to be, this is more or less my line of work. What you have to realize, is that remote-sensing people are looking more for what they EXPECT to find, and "random anomalies" are typically ignored. That's not to say it's a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of the science (to shoot down those who think global warming is bunk ... it's NOT), but rather confirmation of recognized trends, either short-term or long-term. Unless some otherwise incredibly bored newbie happens to notice a geophysical pattern to detected "anomalous" signatures (as I did as a 2nd Lt. in the AF with regard to "something" I wasn't supposed to notice, which brought NSA attention ... not to worry, now declassified, and of our own creation ... no aliens or black holes involved), they would go unnoticed.

I think you have an over-inflated view of what is "picked up" by remote sensing equipment ...

→ 434.
Abaddon not ABBA-don, not the 70s Scandinavian pop group. Saw the FRINGE tease several times this week. Abrams? (LOST) and writers (Heroes?) are behind it. Looks good. Maybe a little X-Files-ish. Don't know. Looking forward to your HOUSE review. Good stuff (HARD WORK ehh?).

Penny (Sonia W.) has done much elsewhere since the start of LOST. Hasn't hurt her much. Reddick will survive.
- - - -
→ 433.
You did read the SCI-AMERICAN link from early... liked the wormhole to itself concept. Do any SRTM work (my fave) back in the day?
- - - -
Worst part of my day... ENHANCED Versions of LOST are not CANON or even SEMI-CANON, they are NON-CANON. And here I thought they were producer inspired, or at least endorsed. Thanks Lostpedia.

I'm so glad that I never read past comment #60.

@Eric/433: “I'm so glad that I never read past comment #60.”

Eric, I completely understand. It takes a hearty constitution to navigate the wilderness of conjecture, speculation, and silliness here on the Lost Blog. Venturing past the campfire light of Mac’s review can be a dangerous proposition. Thar be polar bears, flying Monkeys and wild theorists in them thar hills.

A reader can become Lost for days in untamed supposition and twisting pathways of thought, where the Yellow Brick Road takes misleading turns into the outback of science, fiction, and fantasy, and where the Emerald City of Answers is but a hazy mirage on the horizon.

Luckily, the forest abounds with animated branches of bad puns, silly acronyms, and endless rhymes, waiting to tickle-fight the unwary traveler into submission and occasionally to snatch a misguided fool from the quicksand of his own ego. On a good day, one may stumble upon the meadow of companionship, where gentle haiku floats through the air like the puff of a dandelion, and troubadours delight the crowd with stories and song while weary adventurers sharpen their wit on photo captions, and the sunshine of Reason and Enlightenment breaks through the clouds.

If you find yourself on the rough road of the same old discussions, it’s encouraging to know that new supplies arrive often via internet airdrop, most recently including Jin’s Flashlight, an Apollo bar and, just for fun, our very own Skipper doll and Mizzed (we’re not quite sure what that is, but we’re enjoying it, nonetheless). Lurkers are de-lurking at a delightful rate this season.

Remember, the scrollbar is your best weapon of defense, akin only to Ben’s telescoping baton in the awesomeness of its power. And in the event of a true emergency, Cindy’s Scarf can be used as comic relief and/or to strangle your foe.

You are right to be wary. But risk has its rewards. Come join us further down the Blog. I promise, we don’t bite. Without provocation, that is. ;)

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area we call Mac’s Lost Blog.

Namasté

doo-doo-dodoo-do-do-dodoo . . .

(Well, I AM a composer - somebody has to be musical director around here . . .)

#411 (ealgumby)
"Instead, it would be more like stepping through a doorway between two rooms, except the rooms would happen to be in different buildings, miles apart!"

I suppose that's where egyptian symbols, stargate and Lost intersect ;)

Let's just assume the multiverse theory is correct (I think it is since this allows to avoid the typical time paradoxons of simply going back and forth in time which we all know from Terminator et al.). But how could the existence of the smoke monster be explained without the assumption of some highly advanced (alien?) technology? I don't believe the story goes like "advanced humans of the future send this stuff back in time by using wormhole(s)". I think an alien influence makes more sense with regard to the Lost story. Another possible explanation would be the standard "Alias" mystery plot: "some human genius from the past (or the future) invented all this crazy stuff" -- personally, I would clearly prefer an explanation involving alien technology.

In the end, the big picture of the plot won't matter much to me. I've learned to appreciate the genius and the innovations in some of the subplots.

I saw the new Indiana Jones movie last night. I could've swore that one of the scenes was a shout out to the smoke monster. I know that TPTB (Lost) have made several shout outs to Lucas and Spielberg so I wouldn't be too surprised. Anyway I found it interesting and wondered if anyone else had the same thought.

I, as many of us do, tramp through a number of �Lost� sites to see what others are saying every week . . . Interesting to note that the writer of one blog - who always has some interesting things to say, but for some reason doesn�t have a very big following of blogger commentors - started his last analysis with this comment:

�I was actually pretty surprised when I returned home this week by the total lack of analysis and chatter about this episode on the various Internet sites.�

He OBVIOUSLY hasn�t been to this site. (If he did, his brain would probably explode within the first 60 minutes of trolling . . .)

@ 436 - Clementine

Wow Clementine!! You have captured my existence here perfectly, many of the reasons I return each day...

BTW, Bcre8ve . . .How's the new "Simpson-character-avatar-whatever-
you-call-it" collection coming?

Mizzed@427 said, "In other words, the freighter didn't locate the island- it located the portal that allowed access to the island. Rather than moving the island, you move the location of the portal."

You said it so succinctly! And I concur.

? Posted by: Clementine: Why we're here:

Exactly! What a great piece of writing...this editor wouldn't change a word. Thanks!

@436 Clementine:

Wow! That comment should be bronzed and posted at the head od the Lost blog.

442/davidrh "BTW, Bcre8ve . . .How's the new "Simpson-character-avatar-whatever-you-call-it" collection coming?"

Its going well. Slow, but well. I hope to do the big reveal before next week's show.

In case anyone's wondering what this is about, go to: http://tinyurl*com/3j8usw

Here is a list of everyone from whom I have received a South Park avatar. If you have sent me an avatar but are not on the list, please re-email it to writeme @ bcre8ve.com (remove the blanks.)

ANON2
Cecil Rose
clementine
Crispy Seaplanes
Danny
DharmaDolphin
Doc_H
ealgumby
EthansGrrl
FenwayBen
ilovebenjaminlinusxx
JoePike
Kaseygirl106
LostonPhonics
mac
Mister Grimm
MorBid0
Not an Other
Prosecutor67
RNM
Shikotee
sillygirl0630
SP LOST
trinity
Undaunted
vacc
Wumbawoman

BTW, regulars that I have noticed missing from the list are:
Ala�s_Longthought
meg
*DAVIDRH*

@Clementine/ #436: If they gave Pulitzers for comments, you'd be a shoo-in. *Very* nicely put.

Clem wrote "...Venturing past the campfire light of Mac�s review..." and "...where gentle haiku floats through the air like the puff of a dandelion..."

Clem, love your writing...I could be crushing on you. Jeez I hope yer a girl. Not that there would be anything wrong with it...

I've oft aspired to such dextrous wordsmithing but rarely succeed. I write the Earl blog right next door and if Mac knew I was barely literate he'd fire me on the spot.

Becre8ve:

Sorry - I did send you a message very early on following your announcement of a new picture. what I said in that message was that LAST YEAR'S PICTURE WAS SO RIGHT ON that you could simply repeat it. I was trying to minimize the work for you.

(Looking back at my picture with DarrellAnn last year, the resemblance
is uncanny, to say the least.)

@ davidrh

Yeah, I was hopin' you'd reconsidered. I'd rather not mix the Simpsons and South Parkers. Who knows what chaos might ensue?

&436 / Clementine

Thanks you made my day !

@450 bcre8ve mentiojned:

>Yeah, I was hopin' you'd reconsidered. I'd rather not mix the Simpsons and South Parkers. Who knows what chaos might ensue?

That said, i thought my Simpsons version captured me much better that anything I could come up with on South Park, although I was a little rushed and may go back and give it another try.

=============O
@434 DocH grumbled:

>Worst part of my day... ENHANCED Versions of LOST are not CANON or even SEMI-CANON, they are NON-CANON. And here I thought they were producer inspired, or at least endorsed. Thanks Lostpedia.

I�m not sure where you�re getting this from. Lostpedia says:

�Due to the WGA strike, producers Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse had no involvement in the production of the enhanced version of "Through the Looking Glass". It is unknown whether the writing staff have had input on the enhanced episodes that followed after the ending of the strike. Because of this, it was unknown whether the captioned information should be considered canon. On April 17, 2008, the producers settled the matter when they said, "The enhanced episode is sort of like a Cliff Notes for the shows."�

Sounds sort of like at least a semi-endorsement to me.

=============O
Has everyone seen "Lost in 8:15"? If not, it�s here:

http://tinyurl*com/5klqgx

Now the same folks have done another, even more condensed summary, updated through the first 9 eps of this year � "Lost in 4:24", and it�s here:

http://tinyurl*com/56m6e3

Yeah, it really should have been Lost in 4:23, but the 4:24 was a reference to the start date, April 24, of the new episodes after the writer�s strike.

=============O
441 lostinVT:

Are you:

1) DaveVT changing persona?
2) Another Hokie?
3) From Vermont
4) Something else?

Cecil Rose, VT/AsE/ Class of �68

=============O

@ Cecil Rose

1) DaveVT changing persona? - Nope
2) Another Hokie? - well, sometimes I can be hokey.....
3) From Vermont - Yup, most southern VT you can get :-)
4) Something else? - ummmm, well, I have a lot of redeeming qualities :-)

I watched part of the enhanced Lost last night. DVR'd the rest, had to watch Idol when my family came home. The part I found the funniest was when it started the first popup said "This is a flashforward"

Go David Cook!

Yeah, I was hopin' you'd reconsidered. I'd rather not mix the Simpsons and South Parkers. Who knows what chaos might ensue?
Å® 450. Posted by: bcre8ve

Well, sadly - because you will now consider me a real stick in the mud or some kind of intellectual snob - I must admit that I’ve never watched either the Simpsons OR South Park. I’ve only seen the characters in commercials and didn’t realize that they all didn’t - like Japanese cartoons - LOOK EXACTLY ALIKE!

duh.

Well, if I have to look like something in South Park, just make me up. You did a great job last time!

DAVID

@Clementine/ #436:

OMD Clementine. Wow. Just...Wow.

Your eloquent prose,
like the scent of a rose,
made me laugh and cry,
(and I'm a masculine guy!)

You were meant to write,
long into the night,
so keep your fingers typing,
since thoughts fade like lightning...

Alternate old-school version:

so keep your pen on paper,
lest your thoughts remain vapor...

→ 436. Posted by: Clementine

Bravo! Perfectly and cleverly stated. A delight to read, and a tribute to Mac and his following.

? 433. ealgumby: "I think you have an over-inflated view of what is "picked up" by remote sensing equipment ..."

My comment about Google Earth was more flippant than anything else- I wasn't actually suggesting that Widmore could simply position a satellite or open a page of a Rand McNally atlas and quickly locate the island.

However, if the island is a real, visible place with a fixed location, I find it hard to believe that Widmore, given enough time, money and resources, would be unable to locate it, whether that be through remote sensing of electromagnetic anomalies, and/or through an exhaustive visual search by satellite, air and sea.

I also realize that all sides of the argument of whether the island can or cannot be found are ultimately absurd, since we are dealing with a fictional place. If the writers decide it can be "found", it will be, and vice versa.

Still, it makes for an enjoyable way to pass the time while waiting for the season finale...

@436/Clementine - Thanks for the smile!! You've just made reading through 436 posts on a blog the most rewarding experience ever!!

@Everyone - Thanks for being the reason why anyone would ever read through 436 posts on a blog!!

@431 Scooby-Dude said >> I am even more convinced on a second viewing that the voice in the shower was Juliet at first...

I think the voice was a technically enhanced (masked) version of Kate's meant to create ambiguity or to misdirect us until the visual reveal. They did this in Sayid's flash forward too - the voice we heard in the moments before we learned that he was working for Ben seemed to also be altered or masked.

@436/Clementine

Yea! I got a shout out in Clem's post.... I feel so loved!!

Thanks, Clem, that was awesome :):):):)

In addition to the Lost summaries 8:15 and 4:24 I cited above, I should have mentioned the best two season 1 and 2 summaries ever (Bonus- to a polka beat):

Lost Rhapsody on You Tube: (Season 1)

http://tinyurl*com/6yt9hq

Lost Rhapsody 2 on You Tube: (Season 2)

http://tinyurl*com/5mqr7y

Unfortuantely, to the best of my knowledge, he's never done a Season 3 (yet) - maybe he just hasn't found the right polka - but there is a partial season 3 tribute - sorry, no polka ;( - at:

http://tinyurl*com/33twmr

@453 CR
I�m not sure where you�re getting this from.
- - - -
www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Lostpedia:Canon

I read it from their own list. Item #4 under "NON-CANON", specifically...

"Information given on Enhanced episodes. These are provided by a third-party company, and not created by the production team." ...

(helps to be a lawyer to get thru the link above, tho I'm not, not that there is anyhing wrong with that... being a lawyer.)

#436-Clementine

GO CLEM!...GO CLEM!....GO CLEM!.... :)

LOVED IT

PEACE&LOVE TO ALL

Hey, thanks for the kind words, you all everybody! We are truly greater than the sum of our parts around here.

No Lost tonight, but I remain unspoiled and eagerly anticipating the answer to my most burning question: Why DID Jack shave his chest hair? ;)

a co-worker of mine said she heard on one of the local radio stations(they were doing their daily entertainment reporting) that matthew fox is the only actor of the lost gang that knows how the SERIES is going to end and that he signed a cnfidentially agreement. not sure how true the info is but that's what they reported. :)

can someone possibly kidnapp,torture and convince him to tell us all the answers. :)

peace&love to all

@@@@@@@@

@ 401 - bcre8ve -

Ahh... more clues - BRILLIANT! I never thought about the fact that if Aaron was indeed Claire's baby, he would be talking in an Austrailian accent. So there is the total end all proof that he must really be Kate's baby. End of Story.

(On a sad note - not a side note - I am sure there are a handful of people that think I am being serious when I post those outlandish comments... as proof of some people actually questioning me and saying I am totally wrong... uh, duh! haha!)

Has anyone seen my lost stuffed animal? It is a panda with a scarf on, smoking a bong. Let me know if anyone stumbles across it. It was supposed to be a late Valentine's Day present for Meg... or for Ilovebenlinusxxxx... I haven't decided which yet (in comparison to Kate not knowing who to choose - Jack or Sawyer)?!?!? I love them both... my biggest fans!

Peace.

@@@@@@@@

@436/Clementine

I echo all the kudos...nicely said Clementine. I am so thankful that I stumbled onto this Lost blog. Lost can be enjoyed on all levels and the few people in my life that watch Lost enjoy it simply as a really good show. Thanks to Mac and all on this blog for providing me a place to go to delve deeper.

@465/DocH

I DVR'ed the two enhanced episodes last night hoping to get some insight...anything... I bounced back and forth between Lost, American Idol (love David C) and the Orioles and Yankees game. I wasn't really getting anything from the enhanced version...ended up deleting them this morning. Kind of disappointed.

→ 446. bcre8ve: South Park avatars:

Uh oh...I couldn't access the "Make Avatar" screen from my iMac, so ealgumby was kind enough to put one together for me. Now I need to remember what I did w/it...a mind is a terrible thing to lose.

→ 454. lostinVT: "Yup, most southern VT you can get":

Ayuh? South of Bennington or Brattleboro?

→ 466. Clementine: Why DID Jack shave his chest hair?

He got an endorsement deal from Dharma's Double-Edged Razors. "A close shave, both coming and going..." ; >

@467/tiffani can someone possibly kidnapp,torture and convince him to tell us all the answers. :)

I will...I will...I will...!!! (At least kidnap...) I know Jack has steadily become extremely unpopular, but I still love Matthew Fox...yum!!!

@421 & 423/DocH : (said about Alpert and Locke) >> I'll go back and try to recruit Locke in High School. If that doesn't change the present, I'll go farther..

You make an excellent point about Alpert's time jumping into the past and also that Alpert's attempt to recruit Locke in HS could even have predated his visit to Locke earlier in Locke's life.
That kinda sums up something I've been wondering for a while - What is the chronology of Alpert's appearances? I mean from Alpert's perspective.

Back up from that question, to a more vital one.. Has an ageless Richard Alpert been keeping tabs on Locke for 52 years of his life? Or is it more likely that Alpert traveled back in time for these purposes?
I'm inclined to agree with DocH - that time travel is more likely explanation based on what we've learned so far.

This raises many new questions - for instance, What was the frame of reference in Alpert's life at the times he popped into Locke's life?

I think we were meant to assume that the reason Locke didn't recognize Alpert when the two first met on the Island was because Locke's childhood encounter with Alpert happened such a long time ago.

But I believe that the experience of Alpert's visit - showing up to tell the the young boy that he may be "very special", and then his harsh instant rejection after Locke's apparent failure with the test - would have made a lasting impression on Locke. (without delving into the details of my own early childhood experiences, I'll just say that I identify with young Locke enough to state this as near fact)

Yet there wasn't even a glimmer of recognition from Locke - even though Alpert looked practically IDENTICAL to the way he looked back then. Why? I believe that at the time they met on the Island, Alpert had not yet made these visits. Time travel makes it possible for these visits to have happened AFTER Locke came to the Island.

Now if this is true - and since we know that Locke eventually does end up on the Island - what was the purpose of Alpert's visits? A few possibilities spring to mind
1) To put things into Locke's memories or subconscious in order to have an effect on Locke's future actions on the Island.
2) Because Alpert himself questions whether Locke is indeed the right one to lead.
3) As part of a fact gathering assignment. (I'm thinking about all the lists that keep getting compiled.) Perhaps after the plane crashed, some of the Others were tasked with observing one or more of the survivors - perhaps even testing them. Whatever the criteria for being on Jacob's list really was, how much info could be learned simply by having Ethan and Goodwin spending a few days among the survivors? Or even from having Mikhail run background checks?
4)Course correction due to something that happened after the 815ers crashed that requires some manipulation of past events to make sure that everyone makes it on the Island that needed to be there. Perhaps as a result of moving the Island, or some other side effect that stems from whatever will take place at the Orchid?

Does anyone remember how Mikhail came to the island? Boat, plane, submarine, balloon?

I just read his profile on Lostpedia and it's very vague about how he came to be on the island...

“At the age of 24, he replied to a newspaper advertisement titled "Would you like to save the world?" and was recruited by a "magnificent man." He eventually ended up arriving on the Island around 1993. Before he was revealed as being one of the Others, he had claimed to be a member of the DHARMA Initiative, but later confessed that this was not true….”

This explains WHY he came to the island but not HOW he got there.

So was he recruited by the Others AFTER the purge?? What was he recruited to do? What was his purpose on the island before the Others gave him the job of being in charge of the Flame? Did he ever live with the Others in the barracks?

@ Clementine - 436
Amazing.

@ bcre8ve
Did you like mine?

By the way... I'm pretty good at photoshop if you need any help.

@ Cecil Rose - 453
LOST 8:15 Yeah... I can watch that thing over and over again... I didn't think that if a new viewer watched it that they'd get it, but I showed it to my friend before the premire of season 4, and she surprisingly caught on everything. It was really weird.

I wouldn't have gotten it... I think.

Anyway... My favorite part, "Mr. Friendly throws like a girl!"

Ha... ha.

@ JoePike - 457
Very nicely put.

LMFAOLACWIS. Guess what that stands for...

CLUE: I made it up.

Give up?

ANSWER:

Wait for it...

....

.....

You're WRONG!

Laughing My Flimsy Arms Off Like A Chicken When It Snorts.

-----------

Tonight's going to be such an empty Thursday. But on the bright side... NO SCHOOL TILL WEDNESDAY!!! 5 DAY WEEKEND!!! Then the day after Wednesday, we get yearbooks, and LOST!!!

That will be a good day.

-----------------

@ Mr_Naysayer - 468
YAY. I like pandas... But if it smokes... well I guess if it smokes out Smokey/Vincent it'd be kinda cool.

But smoking is not cool. DON'T DO DRUGS!!! ...I don't know what a bong is though.

If it's wearing Cindy's scarf... it'd be even cooler!

@shikotee #393
Many of us have been bothered by the fiscal realities involved in obtaining controlling interest...

Could Hurley have helped Sun come up with the money. He still had all of the Lotto winning when he returned, and did not want it. (Cheech didnt smoke it all!)
Along with the other 4 (5 accounts)
Could be enough to take control of 50%of her fathers company.

What will prevent Walt from spilling the beans at some point in the future that he too was on flight 815 and shops a book to publishers entitled
"Oceanic 6 My Ass"? Perhaps the Others aren't as thorough as we are lead to believe.

#436 - Clementine, my darling, my favorite bloggess!!

@bcre8ve - I'll go take a look. If I can do it at work tomorrow (if it doesn't block me) I'll get it done..:) At home I can't get a quiet moment to myself to concentrate on much of anything.

468/Mr_Naysayer "Has anyone seen my lost stuffed animal? It is a panda with a scarf on, smoking a bong. Let me know if anyone stumbles across it."

This story just broke. I heard it on a local radio station during their entertainment segment. Before it broke, only Matthew Fox knew about it but he has been tortured into revealing that...

Mr_Naysayer's "Panda" has left the island. Stating he can no longer live a lie, he has removed his spots - which appear to have been spray painted on - and revealed that he is actually a polar bear.

The Pandolar bear was quoted as saying, "I'm tired of sitting around here talking to dead Horaces and pretending to be something that I'm not. And don't EVEN get me started on Jacob. He's like, 'move the cabin over here. Now move it over there.' All I can say is that I'm outta here!"

There is no word on the missing bong. One theory is that it has wrapped itself in a sheet/scarf, disguising itself as a young, non-accented Australian and has also left the island claiming to be one of the Oceanic 6.

One source, choosing to remain nameless, stated that it should be easy to recognize because, just before leaving, it developed, "...a bad case of flatulence, and who isn't familiar with 'Bong with the Wind?'"

All I can say is, "Frankly Scarlet..."

@475/bean116 re: Hurley's money...

I think Hurley gave the money to his mom and dad. (So maybe Cheech did smoke it...) Looking at that mansion of a house they live in may indicate that they had come into some $. Also, when his dad presented him with the car, Hurley said he didn't want anything that was associated with the money, but his dad told him that he did it before he "gave them the money".

473. Posted by: Skipper

"So was he recruited by the Others AFTER the purge?? What was he recruited to do? What was his purpose on the island before the Others gave him the job of being in charge of the Flame? Did he ever live with the Others in the barracks?"

Maybe he was a worker in the swan before the purge.

I think that since Patchy has a missing eye, the glass eyeball found by the tallies in the Arrow belonged to him-Mikhail.

I have been wondering who took the clip out of the swan orientation film and put it in a box in the arrow with the eyeball. Is it logical that it might be him. But why would he remove that clip?

So someone WOULD screw up and fail to push the button and make the island visible to someone searching for it.
Or use the computer to contact the outside world. Maybe he was working with the hostiles against Dharma. so they rewarded him with the Flame job. How else did a Dharma worker survive?

After the purge, I think Ben must have taken over from Alpert at some point. Maybe the hostiles needed to get rid of Ben and were willing to get outside help from another promising leader - Locke?.

OH, the Purge may have been just at the Barracks. Ben had to have his own container of gas for his dad. Maybe That's how Rousseau survived too,.

"LMFAOLACWIS. Guess what that stands for.."

I thought I had part of it.....LOL

Clementine,
the fact that I can post my lame ideas and have no one here blast me is proof of how nice you all are. And the amount of brain matter that I use to follow some of the discussion here is going to ward off Alzheimer's for years. This blog is very beneficial.

@boodle-Hurley and money

your right Mom and Dad are living huge. Seemed like a brilliant idea at the time.

seven more days......wish it was on tonight.

@boodle....

btw, yea, I just noticed the lost city as the islands reflection last week. Does anyone know if that is new or am I just now seeing it?

@ clementine 436
WOW. I am ....lost for words ;)

? 478. Posted by: bcre8ve
- - - -
New Hydra Experiment data indicates that by series end they will have the
"Medusa Pandolar Bear". A large, poisonous, eight legged, black and white bear, that swims' well, sells well every eight years' in children's toy shops, and has an affinity for pretentious, attractive, young diamond thieves.

@vacc 461 re: the faux Kate voice in the shower being technically enhanced (masked).
That's what I figured, too, but it's a dirty trick, I tells ya, a dirty trick.

And don't get me started on the "what is canon" debate. Since I can't come up with anything funny about it -- Canonball Run reference, would a cannon found on the Black Rock in a mobisode be considered canon, etc, etc. -- I'll have to settle for just being miffed about the whole thing. Not to be confused with mizzed.

@tiffani 467
I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be just as happy to simply torture Mr. Fox. But then he might start breathing heavy and youknowwho who loves youknowwhom would have a cow.

@Clementine, you're the best.
@Mac, we love you too.
@vacc, not too shabby either!

@472
I agree with your thoughts about Alpert traveling back to meet Locke to manipulate past events. I found it interesting that Alpert was there at John's birth. How would he know that John was special before he was even born? Traveling back in time is the only thing that makes sense to me.

? 436. Clementine: one of the best written blog entries I have ever read- I agree that it deserves a permanent place and should not be left behind when everyone moves on to the next episode.

"Mizzed (we�re not quite sure what that is, but we�re enjoying it, nonetheless)"

A variation on my name, where I went to college, and the fact that I'm spending way too much time pondering the missing pieces in this puzzle. Since I adopted it, though, I found the following definition in the Urban Dictionary: Missed opporunity due to a number of reasons, such as your planning being negligent, not on top of your game, or simply being lazy and did not show up on time. Usually indicates that the 'missed opportunity' slid into the past and does not warrant looking back.
"Ned we totally mizzed the dog show, how about we go to dinner early?"

I should be grateful I did not accidently pick Mizzel, defined as: Any sort of pariah. A mizzel is a person that when direct contact is made with him/her he/she will become fidgety and twitch about. It is not uncommon for a mizzel to smell, hoard things, and have old clothes. A misunderstood character at best. Often the first person to be blamed when domestic discrepencies arise.

"Oh my God! Rose! Look at that mizzel! Why is he sweating so much?"

On the other hand, if I had really been on my game, I would have selected Mizzled, defined as: Beyond good. Beyond off the hook. To a degree of festiveness that exceeds the capacity of most human comprehension.
"SNAP!!! THATS STRAIGHT TRIPPIN! Why if that was any better it would be mizzled!!!! or "Alpacas, the most unmizzled animals in the world, pray upon small children while they are asleep and eat their limbs."

No, I don't understand that last one either.

? 485. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
I found it interesting that Alpert was there at John's birth. How would he know that John was special before he was even born? Traveling back in time is the only thing that makes sense to me.
- - - -
That is the flipside. Without time-travel. Alpert really is immortal-ish. Centuries old (BL - You do remember birthdays', don't you Richard?). Richard may have been around for awhile, coordinates off-island resources & conglomerates, establishes "labs" & "tech" corps to develop "worthy" island inhabitants, to combat island fertility issues (rapid aging, in-breeding, small gene pool).

Being there for Locke's birth could also simply be a master chef checking to see what just came out of the oven. A pinch of self-doubt, 2 ozs of knife fetish, 2 viable kidneys, 2 paraplegic shanks... Voila! John Locke.

Don't recall if this has been discussed but if Alpert has been going back in time to visit Locke, do you think it was the island that didn't allow John to die when pushed out that window?

All of this talk about Richard "Maybelline" Alpert (and his Tijuana Brass - Nice one) and his seeming immortality and child-limb-eating alpacas ("Tina, you fat lard, come get some DINNER! ") got me to thinkin'...

What if RA isn't immortal but a series of clones? Granted the immortal (a la Highlander) thing seems the more likely but have we completely discounted cloning?

I mean if there's potentially alien technology involved, who's to say there isn't a Star Trek-type energizer (aka Magic Box) that enables one to travel through time and space?

Maybe all of these special children are the result of alien abduction and erotic probing. And Jack's breathing problems are due to his having gills and not lungs. Explains the four-toed statue too. And Smoky is Gort. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Golly, if they can make Ben Linus studlier than Indy, anything's possible...

O===============

@465 DocH expounded: (on the canonicity of the “enhancements” in enhanced episodes)

>I read it from their own list. Item #4 under "NON-CANON", specifically...

>"Information given on Enhanced episodes. These are provided by a third-party company, and not created by the production team." ...

But...

A. In that self-same paragraph, they say they’re re-thinking the canonicity of enhancements:

“(Canonicity is currently under discussion following comments from Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse that the enhanced episodes can be considered like "CliffsNotes".)”

B. The Lostpedia definition of “canonicity” is itself non-canon, i.e. is determined by the Lostpedia editors explicitly and *only* for the purposes of the website itself, and not given from the producers of “Lost”.

So, and since everything I’ve seen from that marketing company, Met|Hodder, seems accurate and I’m pretty sure they have access to sources we don’t, I’m taking the enhancements as at least semi-official.

YMMV

O===============

@466 Clementine pondered”

>No Lost tonight, but I remain unspoiled and eagerly anticipating the answer to my most burning question: Why DID Jack shave his chest hair? ;)

Obviously after Juliet did it, Jack found he liked it and it became a fetish for him. And since it originated from Juliet, it became a major source of premarital friction between Kate and Jack, leading to their breakup.

O===============

@467 tiffani peposed:

>...can someone possibly kidnapp,torture and convince him (Matthew Fox) to tell us all the answers. :)

Hey, I don’t even want to be spoiled for the next episode, much less the series end two years from now.

O===============

@473 Skipper quizzed (concerning Mikhail):

>“At the age of 24, he replied to a newspaper advertisement titled "Would you like to save the world?" and was recruited by a "magnificent man." He eventually ended up arriving on the Island around 1993. Before he was revealed as being one of the Others, he had claimed to be a member of the DHARMA Initiative, but later confessed that this was not true….”

>This explains WHY he came to the island but not HOW he got there.

>So was he recruited by the Others AFTER the purge?? What was he recruited to do? What was his purpose on the island before the Others gave him the job of being in charge of the Flame? Did he ever live with the Others in the barracks?

If we accept that the purge occurred 12 years before the present island time, and that he looks older than 36, we pretty much have to believe that Mikhail was either recruited by Dharma and went over to the others, arriving by submarine, or that he was recruited by pre-purge Others, arriving by some Other means. I favor the former.

O===============

@483 bean116 noticed:

>btw, yea, I just noticed the lost city as the island's reflection last week. Does anyone know if that is new or am I just now seeing it?

I believe it’s been there for all season four, calling attention subtly to the shift in the emphasis of the narrative to as much off the island as on.

O===============

The whole thing with Richard going back in time to be present at John's birth...

The only thing that's still bothering me about that is that Emily's mom seemed to recognize him. Maybe she's connected with the island too?

@ Clementine - 466
Jack's chest looked more "waxed" than shaved.

Why you ask? I'll tell you -- Because he thought that would make him stop breathing... make me happy that I won't have to hear him breathe weird anymore!

@ Scooby-Dude - 485
"I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be just as happy to simply torture Mr. Fox. But then he might start breathing heavy and youknowwho who loves youknowwhom would have a cow."

Exactly! I'd probably take one of my torture instruments and kill him with it. Screw the answers, I don't like spoilers anyway. =D (evil smiley)

@shikotee #393 the fiscal realities of obtaining controlling interest...

If anyone helped Sun finance this, my money's on Ben. The Five banks that were used will be :
1)Bank of Tunisia
2)Island Savings and Loan
3)First Bank of Portland
4)Black Rock Capital
5)Arctic National Savings

I believe we'll see Ben turn up in Sun's life shortly before she buys into her dad's company. Ben will use the anger behind Jin's fate (death or still on Island) to manipulate her as he did with Sayid. Perhaps the whole reason behind Miles insistence that Ben could get his hands on a large amount of money so quickly is to add credibility to his being able to help Sun finance the takeover.
Once Sun is in position to make the decisions for Paik, we will learn what Ben's real interest is in the company - most likely it helps Ben gain a strategic advantage over Charles Widmore.

I was needing a Lost fix, so I just finished watching season 1 episode 3. Kate is about to tell Jack why the marshal had her in custody and Jack said

Wait for it....

It doesn't matter. WE ALL DIED WHEN THE PLANE CRASHED.

Maybe somebody has mentioned this already, but I thought I would mention it anyway.

the fact that I can post my lame ideas and have no one here blast me is proof of how nice you all are.
→ 481. Posted by: berkyo

Exactly! So, to prove that point, here's MY latest thought about RA's first visit to John Locke:

While RA did harshly reject young John (as posted by Vacc in -472), I did not think the boy looked particularly devastated. He seemed more pensive.

When John-Boy chose the knife, I'm now thinking he did it on purpose, knowing it was the "wrong" choice. Either (a) he simply did not want to go to RA's school for the gifted or (b) he wanted to throw RA a curve, and make RA think he (John-Boy) is NOT the ONE.

Of course, the implication is that young John would have known that he is "special" in order to manipulate that scene. So I may be way off.

Locke’s expression rarely changes throughout the show. I’ve always wondered: is he just “thinking” or does he "know" something? Some of you have thought he is weak; I always felt John had a plan.

→ 486. Posted by: Mizzed
If an alpaca is the next animal to show up on LOST, say, chewing on Aaron's legs while he sleeps, Mizzed will officially become Mizzled. (Hey, I called the panda. It could happen!)

O===============

@493 xanadude revealed:

>I was needing a Lost fix, so I just finished watching season 1 episode 3. Kate is about to tell Jack why the marshal had her in custody and Jack said
...
>It doesn't matter. WE ALL DIED WHEN THE PLANE CRASHED.

>Maybe somebody has mentioned this already, but I thought I would mention it anyway.

The transcript from Lostpedia:

“KATE: I want to tell you what I did - why he was after me.

JACK: I don't want to know. It doesn't matter, Kate, who we were - what we did before this, before the crash. It doesn't really -- 3 days ago we all died. We should all be able to start over.”

I think he was speaking metaphorically.

O===============

@bcre8ve - I can't get it done from work. And, yes I admit, I think it may be a little beyond me. Can I describe myself and have you do one??? Pahleeese??

I look a lot like Angelina Jolie. I like to wear a scarf on most occasions. I'm not too dressy, pretty casual. Enough?? Oh, and I have a nose like Pinochio (and I can't spell)

So we know that when we first saw Jack in the Pilot he was on his back, with Ben's special stick nearby. And we saw Ben arrive in Tunisia in the same position with the stick as well.

Has anyone gone back to see if Locke had the magic stick near him when we first saw him on the beach? Wasn't he also flat on his back wiggling his legs a bit.....?

Ok, it�s Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend� can you say �not motivated to work?� I need a Lost fix� c�mon someone write something inspiring before I go postal on these poor unsuspecting saps. I need to take a deep breath...like Jack, he's got it down pat. 8~D

@Cecil Rose Sorry that you went thru all the trouble of finding the transcript but I wasn't suggesting that Jack really thinks they are all dead, just thought it was interesteing in light of Hurley saying they all died on the island (can't remeber Hurley's exact words).

? 490.
So, and since everything I�ve seen from that marketing company, Met|Hodder, seems accurate and I�m pretty sure they have access to sources we don�t, I�m taking the enhancements as at least semi-official.
- - - -
LOST creative staff says their product is theirs = canon.
LOST creative staff says a product contains at least some of their creative input = semi-canon.
No input from LOST creative staff = non-canon.

Enhancements contain no input from LOST creative staff, hence non-canon. Cliffs Notes contain no creative input from authors.

Point in case. A recently aired "Enhanced" episode referred to the freighter as being 90 miles off-shore. Originally aired episodes only referred to the freighter as being at 80 miles, and later, 40 miles away from the island. IF the 90 miles is correct (a product of LOST creative staff) then they chose to introduce that info in an enhanced episode AND to contradict previously tendered data...
(Personally I hope the 90 is just a typo.)

500!?!

A Zodiac can go 90 miles on a tank of gas? Gotta get me one of them...

Here's how I spent my last hour of "work" before the holiday weekend. I wanted to be 500th, but I got a little carried away with my story :)

If you could write the finale episode and have it come to life next week, what would you WANT to see happen? Not what makes logical sense or what questions you want answered, but what scenes or storylines (big or small) would make you HAPPY?

Here�s what I want to see happen on the island:

Two minutes into the show, Jack passes out from blood loss and lies mute in the back of the helicopter for the whole finale.

Lapidus and Sawyer launch a Hugo rescue mission and swoop down on the Orchid, strafing Keamy�s goons with automatic weapons fire. Hugo comes barreling out of the jungle like a linebacker, blitzing bad guys left and right, and makes a leap for the hovering chopper. Realizing the weight is too much, Sawyer dumps Jack�s unconscious body overboard (oh, darn, that won�t work, but it was a nice thought.)

The helicopter then detours back down the other side of the mountain to the Temple, to find Alpert and the Others cooking a naked Kate and Sayid in a giant cauldron, while singing �Pleasant Valley Sunday.� Sawyer proactively acquired Nikki�s stash of eyeliner, and makes a trade for the return of his friends. You might think that the helicopter could not take off at this point, but Kate weighs practically nothing now that the Others have shaved her bald, and Sayid is able to enter a state of meditation so deep he actually levitates.

Back at the Orchid, Locke interrupts Keamy�s beat-down of Ben to return Ben�s telescoping baton, stating that his purse just isn�t big enough, and could you please carry your own stuff for once. Locke then takes the elevator to the basement, and finds another moonpool with his submarine tied to the dock. Before taking a voyage to the bottom of the ocean, he breaks the glass over the emergency station mounted on the wall, and reads the instructions above a big purple button: �To initiate island relocation, press here.� Locke whips out a few spare sticks of dynamite he�s been storing in his crotch, and sets a long fuse. He simultaneously presses the purple button and lights the fuse while running to the submarine.

Meanwhile, Ben is making Keamy pulp with his baton. As he notices the sky beginning to turn purple, Ben runs to what looks like a potting shed, dives in and yells, �Shazam!� Just as the Orchid explodes, Ben transports himself to the Antartic research station. Ben tells Henrik (in Portuguese) to call him a cab. Henrik, taking exception to his accent, shoots Ben, just as Ben yells �Shazam!� and transports himself to the Sahara.

Lapidus is piloting the seriously overloaded helicopter as it drunkenly staggers to the deck of the freighter. Upon exiting, Sawyer shoots Michael on sight. Following the discovery of the explosives, Dan has already ferried the redshirts back to the beach, conceding that he was never meant to be a hero, anyway. Jin and Des explain the situation, and Sawyer volunteers to give up his seat to Sun and Aaron. Unfortunately, the thing just can�t get airborne. After some quick consultation, it�s determined that Aaron�s head weighs about 180 pounds, and one more non-Hurley sized man must exit. As Sayid can levitate and pilot a helicopter at the same time, the group decides that Lapidus is the odd man out. Sawyer and Jin drag him kicking and screaming out the window.

As the helicopter bearing the Oceanic Six flies off toward the horizon, a speed boat approaches with Penny at the helm. She has room for only three men, and they must be hot. As Penny zooms off with Des, Jin, and Sawyer to her own private resort (conveniently located on a nearby invisible island), Lapidus weeps brokenly on the deck of the freighter just prior to the final massive explosion.

Happy Three Day Weekend, Everybody!

@ Clem 501

No that's what I'm talkin' about! That's just what I needed... you just saved the lives of my coworkers.

That wa awesome!

O===============

@499 DocH reiterated:

>Enhancements contain no input from LOST creative staff, hence non-canon. Cliffs Notes contain no creative input from authors.

Nevertheless I�ve always found Cliff�s Notes quite accurate. As to the mileage estimate, the show itself could never settle on a figure, so I�ll forgive them that. And what evidence do you have for statement 1, above? Lostpedia only says this about the first enhanced episode, and only because D/C couldn�t talk during the WGA strike.

O===============

→ 501. Clementine: Your version of the finale:

Ha! Good stuff...if you're not a writer in non-LOST life, you should think about it!

@@@@@@@@@

Meg - I think I've built up enough courage finally, so here goes nothin'...

will you go out with me!?

@@@@@@@@

→ 503. ... Cecil Rose ... I’ve always found Cliff’s Notes quite accurate. As to the mileage estimate, the show itself could never settle on a figure, so I’ll forgive them that. And what evidence do you have for statement 1, above? Lostpedia only says this about the first enhanced episode, and only because D/C couldn’t talk during the WGA strike.
- - - -
Cliffs Notes are very accurate. So is Lostpedia. It is just that you can't claim them as fact until the Creators/Authors say "That is fact". The writers strike started the conversation about "Enhanced Truth" the conversation ended only 5 weeks ago on canon policy about 'Enhancements', well after many enhanced episodes.

At the top of the canon page there is a link to talk (canon:talk) that has the thread associated with the topic. At the bottom of the canon:talk page, last topic on the page, they have "Enhanced Revisted" where all of the LP contributors and Administrators debate the enhanced issue. Good read, worth the read. Says oodles about the topic. Enhanced has gone well beyond the initial 'writers strike' statement. I'd read all of this before I made my previous comment.

@Clementine re: post 501 and others

Your key strokes assemble in the most entertaining and enjoyable manner. I'm glad you are a part of this blog.

499/DocH "LOST creative staff says their product is theirs = canon.
LOST creative staff says a product contains at least some of their creative input = semi-canon.
No input from LOST creative staff = non-canon."

I believe Lord Tennyson foreshadowed your post all those years ago..."Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them..."

496/meg "@bcre8ve - I can't get it done from work. And, yes I admit, I think it may be a little beyond me. Can I describe myself and have you do one??? Pahleeese??"

Sure. I just thought that after guessing everyone from their bloggins last year it would be better to let everyone make their own. But I'd be happy to do it for you.

re: Alpert. We know that there are those on the show that time travel - Ben, Desmund, etc. What if RA has mastered the art of time travel? He has stepped out of time and is no longer tied to a specific time or place.

480/berkyo "I think that since Patchy has a missing eye, the glass eyeball found by the tallies in the Arrow belonged to him-Mikhail."

That was my thought as well until they showed Patchy in his patchless state thus revealing that there is effectively no eye socket in which to insert said glass eye. I wonder if TPTB did that to purposely raise interest in to whom the rightful owner of the glass eye is, or if it was just coincidental?

RE: How Sun was able to get control over Papa's company.

I am sure there are several possibilities. One of which could be that Sun already owned some stock before trying to buy a majority. Paik might have given Sun some when she was younger.

I think that this might be one of those, "just suspend disbelief already - it's the real story that you need to focus on" types of deals for the viewers. But we'll see. Whatever the case. I'm sure the ends will prove more important than the means.

472/vacc "what was the purpose of Alpert's visits? ... Alpert himself questions whether Locke is indeed the right one to lead.

Perhaps RA's visit to test young Locke occurred right after Locke could not kill his dad with the knife on the island. Young Locke indicating that the knife was his might have encouraged RA that there was still hope for Locke being the "one." It may have eventually led to the hillside meeting and folder swap with Locke which later led to Locke's dad's death by Sawyer.

474/ilovebenjaminlinusxx "@ bcre8ve Did you like mine?" (re: avatars)

Which one? You sent three. But yes, I like them all. I'm especially fond of the one with the halo.

→ 488. Posted by: pebspostal:

Don't recall if this has been discussed but if Alpert has been going back in time to visit Locke, do you think it was the island that didn't allow John to die when pushed out that window?
********************
Perhaps not the island itself, unless you buy into the theory that the island itself is somehow sentient.

(foolish definitive statement coming up): while it wasn't always obvious in past seasons, I think it's now clear that there is an inevitable chain of events that require the presence of certain individuals, and that this chain cannot be broken or fundamentally changed.

Michael's gun not firing was an obvious example, but it's consistent with many other events we've seen: Claire being unable to find a working pen at the adoption agency, a mysterious horse allowing Kate to escape, Locke surviving two murder attempts, future Jack unable to jump off a bridge and kill himself, etc., etc.

The Oceanic 815 passengers survived a horrific crash because they had to survive for events to proceed. (all characters not necessary for future events, please place youself by the turbines).

The question is whether the Lost characters have any real free will at all, or if they are predestined like Oedipus to their own particular fate. Oedipus tried to run away from killing his father and marrying his mother, but by doing so ran into a full-on load of "course correction" that caused those very events to occur. Jack and Michael have both tried to run away from their place in these events, with disastrous results.
*****************
→ 423. Posted by: DocH

Has an ageless Richard Alpert been keeping tabs on Locke for 52 years of his life? Or is it more likely that Alpert traveled back in time for these purposes?

→ 343. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

The Novikov Principle does not allow a time traveler to change the past in any way, but it does allow them to affect past events in a way that produces no inconsistencies—

→ 337. Posted by: ealgumby

Things can happen on the "new" branch that might otherwise seem fantastic, in order to "course correct" back to the "true" conjunction of timelines ... the universe has "no choice" but to allow these otherwise unrealistic events to occur, or the timelines will not be able to conjoin at the appropriate time, and reestablish the "course corrected" worldline.
*****************
Three posts/thoughts that can be all combined into the same basic theory of predestined events that can be observed, aided (but not altered) by a potential time-traveler like Alpert or a 3rd party like Abaddon (John, how about a walk about?).

Viewed this way, the young Locke could never have gone to the island as a boy, regardless of which objects he selected, because it would have been too much of a deviation from the existing timeline of events (i.e. Locke as an "other" rather than as a survivor).

The one USA Today theory that D&C (there you go, ealgumby) selected as being closest to some Lost "truths" included the following description of Mrs. Hawking:

"Her visions include a complicated pattern of people that are required to be on the island in order for a set series of events to occur for Dharma to return to the island. With the help of others, including Christian Shephard, Richard Malkin, Nadia and Libby, the group ensures that specific people are on the plane in order for the series of events to occur."

While I don't think we know about that Dharma part yet, much of that theory is consistent with the posts of DocH/ealgumby/scooby-dude.

Just like physicists search for a "Theory of Everything" or a Unified Field Theory, we're searching for our own Unified Theory. Just since the last episode, there has been discussion of blackhole in a box/time travel and course corrections/predestined fate/wormhole portals/parallel universes and the multiverse- all of which could potentially fit together without contradiction. Potentially...

→ 508. Posted by: bcre8ve
... Tennyson foreshadowed your post all those years ago..."Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them..."
- - - -
Great quote!

Now think Reservoir Dogs
and/or
Steve Miller Band

vacc's to the left of me,
Cecil's to the right,
Here I am,
Stuck in the middle with you...

O===============

@508 bcre8ve quoted:

>..."Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them..."

Wasn’t that Alfred, Lord Tennis Ball? I have it on canonical authority of MPFS.

O===============

@511 bcre8ve exposited:

>>480/berkyo "I think that since Patchy has a missing eye, the glass eyeball found by the tallies in the Arrow belonged to him-Mikhail."

>That was my thought as well until they showed Patchy in his patchless state thus revealing that there is effectively no eye socket in which to insert said glass eye. I wonder if TPTB did that to purposely raise interest in to whom the rightful owner of the glass eye is, or if it was just coincidental?

Maybe he *used* to have a glass eyeball, but discarded it as the socket filled in. (Island doing its best to heal the unhealable?)

O===============

Can't Spell Even When Acronyming:

Make that MPFC above.

@Cecil Rose/517
"Maybe he *used* to have a glass eyeball, but discarded it as the socket filled in."

Or maybe there are multiple Mikhails, ala (possibly?) duplicate Docs ... maybe one Mikhail has an eye socket, and maybe one got it stitched up and healed over? Could also explain his "multiple" deaths ...

Not sure how serious I am about this ... then again not sure I'm not, like everything else on this show ... I DO know I AM confused ...

@Cecil Rose/517
@ealgumby/518

And yet again, I must consult the wisdom of "Ren & Stimpy" ... from "Black Hole" ...

>>>
Ren: (Grabs Stimpy) We're alive! Alive I tell you, alive! Flesh and blood, not wax! Do you realize, we're the first dog and cat to pass through a black hole and live to tell the tale, and now here we are in this wonderous new universe, completely unaffected by the journey!
Ren: We'd better scout around and do some exploring.
Stimpy: Yes sir! We'll split up! (Stimpy starts to walk in two directions at once and pulls apart into two copies of himself).
>>>

It ALWAYS comes back to Ren & Stimpy, doesn't it?

And from shortly thereafter in the epi ...

>>>
Ren: Cadet Stimpy and myself find ourselves in a strange new universe, a world where the very physical laws of nature do not apply.

...

Ren sees something in the distance.
Ren: Hey, Cadet Stimpy, let's climb that mountain, so we can learn the lay of the land.

...

Stimpy: Hey, cap'n, this space time doohickey says if we don't get to the trans-di-mensional gateway by three o' clock... we'll be trapped here forever!
Ren (from under a pile of socks): Thank you, Herr President. It's my pleasur- three o' clock??? That's five minutes! How far away is the nearest gateway?

...

Stimpy: Wait I have an idea! I can set this space time doohickey to our molecular wavelengths, switch it into reverse, and turn it up to full blast... and we'll simply implode!
Ren: Implode.... what's that?
Stimpy: Oh, sorry, cap'n, you're a layman, aren't you? I'll try to explain it in technical terms...
>>>

And now we know how the 305 degree course was selected (three o' clock plus five minutes) ...

Everything I need to know I learned from Ren & Stimpy ...

@ealgumby/520

I know, I'm commenting to my own post, but just HAD to preclude the possible pending comment that "three o' clock plus five minutes" equals 90.083 degrees ...

and if you were even remotely pondering that, then you're just as much a tech-geek as me! :)

@ealgumby/520

... or 92.5 degrees, depending upon how you interpret it ... okay, I'll shut up ...

? 501. Posted by: Clementine
- - - -
I like the fan-fiction narrative. You've been working on that one all week. I can tell.

I would have gone with "sha-mizzled" instead of Shazam.

&

I'd have the dead shirts in the zodiac eaten by the Dharma whale... who Alpert affectionately calls, "Moby Richard".

(you need to copyright your stuff here.)

In this season's finale, I demand to find out:

* How the 06 got off the Island, why they had to lie, and why this particular story

* How the space/time teleporting thing in the Orchid station works (well, I don't expect scientific explanations, but I want to see it happen)

* Something new about what was going on and who were living on the Island in pre-Dharma times. Or at least some revelation about Jacob's identity (we deserve that after 4 seasons!)

* A teaser about the reason for Alpert's monitoring of Locke.

* Some more brilliant wtf?-moments

I'm probably expecting way too much. But next week's double bill could and should top everything we've seen so far, in the jaw dropping department.

THE NUMBERS

Okay, no joke, or even half, uncertain kind of joke here ...

I think I know what the numbers are ...

really ...

They represent I Ching hexagrams, as seen on all of the Dharma station logos ... got to thinking about this in response to the "wrong Orchid Station symbol on Ben's Tunisian jacket" thing, but didn't occur to me until about an hour ago ...

and if someone out there has already suggested this, I apologize for the redundancy, but never remember seeing that here (I don't discount that it may have been presented elsewhere, but really don't go hunting around for this kind of thing ... keep my Lost thought/dwelling here) ...

Quick summary -

Each of the six numbers can be represented as six-"digit"-binary sequences, which define the I Ching symbols (wiki "I Ching" for more info), and their meanings:

4 = 000100
8 = 001000
15 = 001111
16 = 010000
23 = 010111
42 = 101010

These can be divided into I Ching "trigrams" (as seen in the Dharma station logos) by by splitting them into 3-bit pairs:

4 = 000 100 = k?n zh�n
8 = 001 000 = g�n k?n
15 = 001 111 = g�n qi�n
16 = 010 000 = k?n k?n
23 = 010 111 = k?n qi�n
42 = 101 010 = l� k?n

Now the question arises ... are these values to be interpretted as I Ching hexagrams in top/bottom (from left to right) form, or bottom/top form?

I will interpret both ways (based upon the wiki info), and let you decide (or decide to ignore this completely) ...

In top/bottom form, they translate as:

4 = Recovery (return),
8 = Stripping (splitting apart),
15 = Launching Charged Assault (great taming),
16 = Union (holding together),
23 = Waiting,
42 = Incompletion

In bottom/top form, they translate as:

4 = Start of Something New (enthusiasm),
8 = Being reserved (modesty),
15 = Withdrawal (retreat),
16 = Bringing Together ("the Army"),
23 = Conflict,
42 = Completion

I think either way works in some sense within the framework of the show, and maybe the dichotomy of "solutions" actually works into the plot (where my mind is headed).

Regarding "The Valenzetti Equation" ... honestly, it is EASY to make "the numbers" fit any number of equations (basic 5th order polynomial for one, easily produced with Excel using the "add trendline/polynomial/order=5" option if you create a simple chart with the numbers ... just an example, there are LITERALLY an infitinite number of equations that can produce the same set of numbers in sequence). I think the numbers have meaning as I Ching hexagrams, and the Valenzetti Equation was created after the fact, just to reproduce them (i.e., it means nothing), and send viewers off on the "wrong" track trying to figure them out ... IMO.

@512 bcre8ve-
Complete agreement with the whole Sun takeover "controversy". As a criminal lawyer, I hated the way they dealt with Kate's trial (What about all the federal crimes? Even though she stole a toy airplane it's still a bank robbery that she planned! And shot a guy! Assaulted federal officers several times? Really think all this would be excused if she arguably saved a federal officer's life? Uh, no) but perfectly willing to ignore this for the bigger picture. People need to forget that the stars don't line up perfectly and just look for the constellation.

ealgumby...

lost has given us alot of WTF moments...

mac has given us at least (a few others could be noted here) one more...

man, WTF?...you simply amaze me...