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Lost Reviews and News

Key Points from "Jughead"

Season 5, Episode 3
Episode Air Date: 01/28/09

Point 1


Howdy, folks. This is your fill-in reviewer Cecil Rose. I'll follow mac's lead and just try to register the things that stood out for me in tonight's episode.

Also, knowing I'm not as fast as mac and folks will just be itching to talk about this new episode, I'll be posting this review empty soon after Lost finishes on the East coast tonight, then I'll come back and fill in the review as soon as I can. Feel free to chat.

Right now I'm wondering if the episode title "Jughead" refers to Aaron? Or maybe somebody commits a blunder and deserves that moniker. Well, we'll all know (or will we?) in a few hours.


  • Penny and Desmond are cruising the world in their boat.
  • They have a baby in some remote Asian coastal village. [It's a boy!]
  • Des is describing to his son, now about three, the "magical island" they are approaching. It's Great Britain.
  • Daniel Faraday told Desmond that 'everyone on the island was in danger' unless Des delivers a message to Faraday's mother in Oxford. Desmond just remembered this fact three days ago - guess it's a good thing they were near Britain at the time and not on the other side of the world. The message: "Daniel is still on the island."
  • The registrar at Oxford says they have no record of any Daniel Faraday.
  • Desmond sneaks to the Physics department and breaks into the office he previously saw Faraday experimenting in. It contains dust-covered furniture and mouse mazes.
  • A janitor catches him and says he'll forgive the broken lock if Des will tell all the others that there's nothing there but "rubbish left by a madman." There have been others poking around.
  • The janitor says it's not surprising Oxford disclaims Faraday considering "what he did to that girl."
  • Des shows up at a house and asks for "Teresa Spenser". [Is this supposed to be Daniel's mother? We never heard the name. Sister? Wife?] Teresa's sister Abigail lets him in when he drops Faraday's name
  • Teresa is on life support and demented. Abigail bitterly blames Faraday for leaving her.
  • Abigail says Widmore[!!!] supported all Faraday's research and still supports Teresa's treatment.
  • Desmond barges into Widmore's office and demands to know where Faraday's mother is.
  • After briefly denying such knowledge, Widmore gives Desmond an address in Los Angeles. [Guess who!]
  • Widmore pleads with Desmond to 'deliver your message' and then keep Penny out of this dangerous business. "Go back to wherever you've been hiding."
  • Desmond returns to the boat and tells Penny Faraday's mother is dead. Penny immediately sees through the lie and gets the truth from Desmond.
  • Even though Desmond says he's prepared to drop the matter and concentrate on Penny and their boy, Penny knows he can't really do that and says they'll accompany him to Los Angeles.
  • Their son's name is Charlie!
Point 2






  • Hoo boy, I got a lot of 'em.
  • Daniel, Charlotte, and Miles and two red shirts trek through the jungle looking to rendezvous with Sawyer 'at the creek.'
  • They get there, and Miles discovers booby traps made from US Army (ca 1960's) claymore mines. As Miles attempts to warn the others, the bombs go off, but strangely no boobies are shredded, only the red shirts.
  • The bombs attract more army-suited guys, including one hot young girl I hereby dub 'Sojer Girl'.
  • The soldier-suits take the three frosties (freighter-losties) captive. Sojer girl says they didn't set the bombs - they think the frosties did.
  • Elsewhere, Locke, Sawyer, and Juliet have two soldier-suited captives of their own, all the ones Locke didn't kill the night before.
  • The captives begin speaking in Latin.
  • Juliet knows Latin, too, for the same reason. It's the official Other language, offered in Other 101. [So why haven't we heard any before?]
  • Miles's sixth sense apparently has a greater range than three hours. As they trek along he whispers to Daniel that they've just walked over the graves of four US soldiers, one month dead, three of whom died by gunshot and one from radiation poisoning.
  • The soldier-suited Others lead Miles, Daniel, and Charlotte to Other-Camp. It's in a clearing and consists of US Army '50's era pyramid tents.
  • Richard Alpert is the leader there, looking much the same as he always does, dressed neatly in civvies.
  • The Others stash the trio in a tent while they decide what to do with them.
  • When Alpert comes in to interrogate them, Faraday correctly deduces (from seeing radiation burns among the Others and Richard's previous greeting) that they have a leaking atomic bomb somewhere. He says he can help them with that by disarming the bomb.
  • When Alpert asks why he should trust Daniel, Daniel points to Charlotte and says he loves this woman and would do nothing to jeopardize her safety.
  • Charlotte beams to hear this.
  • When Juliet drops Richard Alpert's name in a Latin conversation with a prisoner, she appears to win him over and he gives them directions to Other Camp.
  • The other Other prisoner [not to be confused with poster The Other Other] promptly kills the first prisoner by snapping his neck, then runs off.
  • Locke draws a bead on Escaping Other but can't shoot,
  • Sojer Girl takes Faraday [at rifle point] to fix the bomb.
  • Escaped Other runs into camp and reports. Richard wonders if he's considered he's leading the Losties back to their camp.
  • Escaped other says "No way. Their leader's a sodding old man. You think he could track me?"
  • The sodding old man eyes the camp from cover and is surprised to see Richard there.
  • Locke says he's going down to talk to Richard. Sawyer sees Sojer Girl leading Daniel on a 'death march' out of camp and thinks they should rescue him first. Locke says he'll give Sawyer a ten minute head start, then he's going into camp.
  • Dan tell Sojer Girl she reminds him of somebody.
  • She thinks it's a pick-up line.
  • They get to the bomb, Daniel surveys it then backs off fast, saying the casing is cracked and it's leaking radiation
  • Dan tells Sojer Girl they should take lead or cement, encase the bomb, and bury it.
  • Sojer Girl wants to know how he knows that will work.
  • "Because fifty years from now this island is still here!" Dan tells her.
  • Sawyer gets the drop on Sojer Girl, who he calls 'Blondie'.
  • Locke strides into Other Camp loudly demanding to see Richard Alpert.
  • Escaped Other holds a gun on Locke as Richard approaches.
  • Locke introduces himself.
  • Richard is unimpressed.
  • Locke says "Jacob sent me."
  • Richard is impressed.
  • Richard orders Escaped Other to "Put the gun down. Put the gun down, WIDMORE!
  • Locke and Alpert talk. Locke shows Alpert the compass and tells how he got it.
  • The year is 1954!
  • Locke tells Richard he (Locke) is suppose to be their leader - Richard has/will told/tell him so himself.
  • Richard says that the Others have very specific procedures for picking a leader.
  • Locke invites Richard to his zero-th birthday party in Tustin, California two years hence on May 30, 1956.
  • Locke tells Richard that he (Richard) has/will told/tell him (Locke) that he (Locke again) has to leave the island, so how do you do that huh?
  • Just as Richard appears on the verge of telling him, Locke feels a hot flash coming on and FOOM!
  • Locke, Sawyer, Juliet, Daniel, Charlotte, and Miles are standing in a vacant field.
  • Shortly afterwards, Charlotte collapses, bleeding heavily through the nose.

Point 3

  • "If you had been through what I've been though, James, maybe the appropriate question would be when the Hell have I been?" Locke, responding to Sawyer's 'Where the hell have you been', not realizing that Sawyer's been though a similar wringer.
  • "Because he's one of my people." Locke, explaining to Sawyer why he couldn't shoot the escaping other.
  • "I assume you've come back for your bomb." Richard greeting the frosties, under the impression that they're the remains of the world's weirdest US Army squad.
  • "Richard has always been here." Juliet, replying to Locke's question on sighting Richard.
  • "Old." Juliet, responding to Locke's asking how old Richard is.
  • "Do you want to stay here in Crazy Town, or help me save the geek?" Sawyer, presenting alternatives to Juliet.
  • "Son of a bitch!" Sawyer, on first catching sight of the H-Bomb.
  • "Are they from the future, too?" Sojer Girl, on first catching sight of Sawyer and Juliet.
  • "Your name is Widmore? Charles Widmore?" Locke, on meeting the young Widmore.
  • "What's it to you?" Widmore on meeting Locke.
  • "Nothing. Nice to meet you." Locke, responding.
  • "Far be it from me to doubt myself, but...." Richard, calmly accepting Locke's assertion that future-Richard told Locke he would be the leader of the Others.
  • "Me, too. I'm great too." Miles, feeling odd-man-out as everyone else congratulates each other on coming through the FOOM!


  • The claymore mines are about ten years early in 1954. Has there been some time-transference?
  • How did the US Army find the island in the first place to set up the bomb tests?
  • My suspension of disbelief is straining at the bomb plot. I've read quite a bit about the early test days and the tests were conducted with huge amounts of material, and large numbers of men. Nothing a few dozen Others could wipe out with rifle fire. The bomb is an aerial bomb, such as would be dropped from an airplane, not the kind of huge honking machine that would be set up for a ground test. The tower was all wrong for a test tower. If the others were supposed to have built it - why?
  • Charlie. Sweet.
  • So where's Dharma in all this? Too early?
  • Who's Teresa and what relation is she to Faraday? Abandoned wife seems most likely, yet out of character for Faraday. Are we being told we don't really know him?
  • So who wasn't in this episode? Ben, All of the Oceanic Six - not here. Kind of refreshing, actually. Although I wouldn't have minded seeing Frank Lapitis.
  • OK, now we've got at least one object that appears out of thin air. The compass. Locke hands it to Alpert in 1954. Alpert takes it along with him in, oh, 1964 when he visits the young Locke. Alpert gives it to Locke in, oh 2000(?) when he treats Locke's leg wound. Locke carries it back to 1954 where he gives it to Alpert, completing the circle. This compass was never manufactured and has no existence prior to 1954 or after the 2000(?) meeting. Can you see why I maintain the whole island may have a similar origin and fate?
  • Can anybody figure out why this episode was called "Jughead"?
Next Episode:
"The Little Prince" -- Jack's back. So are the 'lawyers' that are harassing Kate. Sawyer seems to be acting platoon leader. Screams in the night. Sawyer says "I saw Kate in the jungle." -- Airs Wednesday, Feb. 4, 2009 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Cecil Rose. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Posted by Mac Slocum on January 28, 2009 10:00 PM |


#1. Posted by: samfin at January 28, 2009 11:28 PM

Great epi... I liked it better than both season openers. And score one more Frogurt reference!

#2. Posted by: Frogurt at January 28, 2009 11:34 PM

Well, that was cool . . .

And even before I’ve seen Cecil’s episode synopsis, I can, at least attest that the creators of the show were truthful when they said they would be answering some questions for us this season . . . Well, at least we have some suppositions that are probably fairly accurate now.

I know the OTHERS have been on the island a loooonnnnnnng, long time.

I know now where the US Army stuff the Tailies found came from. Thanks both to our resident ghost-whisperer and Richard Alpert’s true confessions moment.

I don’t know why the army didn’t send a search party for their bomb unit.

Better than that - YOU’VE LOST A HYDROGEN BOMB, FOR GOODNESS SAKES! Doesn’t that worry ANYBODY in the Eisenhower administration?

I now know who the hot chick with the rifle is.

I know that Charles Widmore used to be an OTHER! Good Grief , Charlie W., - How old are you, dude?

I know CW is a granddaddy . . and he doesn’t. na-nana-na-naaaa-na...

I don’t know what kind of experiments Faraday was actually doing, but obviously, trying to run that full grown woman through that tight little rat-maze didn’t do her any good. (Just Kiddin’! Obviously time travel experiments gone awry . . . )

I know Charlotte might as well put on a red shirt now. Things are not looking good.

I know my high school Latin is finally paying off.

BRING IT ON CECIL! We’re all on pins and needles . . . whoops! I’m out-a-here . . .


#3. Posted by: davidrh at January 28, 2009 11:39 PM

Hello everyone and thanks for opening the blog Cecil. Good luck with your recap.

I missed out on posting last week. Nice to be back.
Loved this weeks ep much more then last.

Does Cindy's scarf skip with the 815 or stay with the Others?

Loved the Locke story line tie together. Locke is this supposed leader but he is always looking to someone to tell him how to do it. First he was all over Ben and now its going to be Richard providing his answers. When will he have enough info to take the wheel.

#4. Posted by: Dakota at January 28, 2009 11:43 PM

They keep referring to the "hostiles" as some type of group native to the island, but here we see in 1954 they have Caucasian (not of the mountain variety) people with various accents. Widmore is likely born in Britain and raised there for a while or he wouldn't sound like a Brit. I'm glad we're seeing his connection to all of it now, but they are still not making a whole lot of sense in terms of where the hell they came from. Unless Richard is the only "real" other then and now.

#5. Posted by: Mike at January 28, 2009 11:57 PM

So did Dharma recruit members of the US Army to come train Dharma Initiative people and help attack the Others?

#6. Posted by: Matt S at January 29, 2009 12:01 AM

I think Cindy's scarf in trans-scarfual. We saw it wrapped around Desmond in his trip to the University and to visit Widmore.

#7. Posted by: Morbid0 at January 29, 2009 12:02 AM

CWFCR - Can't Wait For Cecil's Review

Lots to take in...Ok here are a few thoughts:

Hot Blond holding rifle (Ellie) = Mrs. Hawking (Eloise) = Daniel's mom - same attitude, same hair and Daniel seems to recognize her + she's in L.A. according to Widmore - same place as Mrs. Hawking and Ben.

Is it just me or did Richard seem dressed more like he was going to party till it was 1999 more than 1952!

Also, Locke giving the compass to Richard and Richard trying to find Locke at a young age as we saw in a flashback means he already had lived what we saw today: so it was a flashback-forward-back or whatever. But it means that some things that we have already seen would be an "altered" by the future past....

Now I now this isn't supposed to happen, course correction and all, unless , maybe, it has already happened. As per Desmond, Widmore and the others remember what we saw today. And I have a felling they know a whole lot more.

That would explain why Zeak (I forget his real name) knew Michael couldn't kill himself because he knew he had to do his thing on the boat with the bomb.

My feeling is that Jacob is the guy with the goods. He knows the whole story. How and why he knows it, well, that what the remaing episodes are for.

Man I love this show!

#8. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at January 29, 2009 12:22 AM

Great epi! What I would like to know is Widmore an actual Other, or was he brought to the Island as a possible leader? He wanted to do things his way, but RA was able to override that. I wonder as time went on if it was decided that Widmore wasn't the one they were looking for & was sent away from the Island. Or has the FDW been turned before?
Another point, it seems that if they are in physical contact with an object, then it will jump with them. That's why the raft jumped the first time, or why Locke was able to take the compass back with him.
And speaking of Locke, it seems that one can change the events of the past. RA would never have visited Locke's birth or tested him as a child had Locke not told him to. That meeting may have been in the past, but that was Locke's future self that changed & added to those events. Locke doesn't give himself enough credit or realize the impact he's having on events. He's too busy looking to someone else for guidance and answers that he doesn't understand that he's responsible for setting events into motion by exerting his free will across space/time.
Oh, & it seems more likely that Ms. Hawking is Faraday's mother since she's reclusive, is currently in LA, & her name is Eloise.

#9. Posted by: Hotpocket23 at January 29, 2009 12:28 AM

@ 8 Prosecutor67: I took too long typing that you beat me to it. I missed the Ellie connection though. Can someone please pass me a tissue? I think my nose is bleeding.

#10. Posted by: Hotpocket23 at January 29, 2009 12:43 AM

@ #8 - Prosecuter67

What an excellent observation about Faraday having a run in with his mother. It explains how she is connected with the island.

Learning that Widmore was on the island, is it possible that he moved it at some point? That could explain why he's trying so desperatly to find it.

What's up with the whole Latin thing? I get they said it was the language of enlightenment, but there's got to be something more there...right?

If Richard's rocking his dress shirt attire in the 50's, I'm curious to see why he sports the dirty hippie look a decade later.

Can't wait to read the recap. Good luck Cecil. I'm sure you will do a wonderful job. Not many can capture the "Mac" sense of humor quite like you.

#11. Posted by: The Other Other at January 29, 2009 12:47 AM

Wow, was that the first completely non-Jack episode? It was very good but not as good as the first 2 eps this season. I want to know about the 4 soldiers under foot who were dead. Nice nod by Desmond to name his son Charlie. So is Faraday the son of Charles Widmore and the blonde chick with the rifle? That's why Faraday was staring at her...

#12. Posted by: Ronny B at January 29, 2009 12:58 AM

Hotpocket, I need to correct you on something. You are making a common time-traveling mistake. Locke isn't changing the past at all. He can't, because it already happened.

Remember what Faraday said in "The Lie" last week? Time is like a street. You can go up, you can go down. You can't change it. So, yes, his actions are having an effect on the future. But it's not CHANGING it, strictly speaking.

On a similar note, some might be thinking "I wish Locke or Sawyer had just shot Widmore when they had the chance." But if they had already done that, there is no way they could be running from him in the present. It would be a whole different course of events. Who knows...they might not even be on the island if it weren't for Widmore - who knows?

But I really hope they don't take Richard the Immortal too far. I was glad to see that Widmore has aged appropriately.

#13. Posted by: jamers503 at January 29, 2009 1:24 AM

What's the deal with the scarf? I'm relatively new to this blog and it keeps popping up in conversation.

Today's episode was okay, although I didn't really like the fact that they dragged an H bomb into the story. Didn't we have enough factions to worry about, now we have the US army as well? :)

Good point about Ellie being Faraday's mom. It was clear she was somehow connected to Faraday, but the penny didn't drop (no pun intended).

So what was the deal at Oxford? Why did they keep Daniels room locked. If they wanted to forget Daniel because the University was afraid to get a bad name, then why not throw everything out? And if it was somehow a scheme by Widmore, then why not collect the important results of his research and store it somewhere safe?

Finally some answers. The Locke-Richard story is settling into place and it's following the time travel rules according to Daniel. The past cannot be changed and it isn't, because Locke always met Richard in '54, that's the whole reason why Richard came to see Locke as a child. Makes enough sense to me. It was acknowledged though that Desmond not remembering Daniel until 'now' didn't make sense. I hope they have something up their sleeves about that for later.

Who else feels that Miles uptil now has been a bit underused? It seems he's only good to reveal some plot points from the dead. Perhaps we'll figure out at some point whether he's really Dr. Chang's kid.

Finally confirmation that Widmore was an Other. That always seemed to make the most sense in that it always seemed that Widmore was in a similar position as Ben, only earlier.

The US army, did they ever come back to the Island to look for their missing team and the bomb? Perhaps the Others were afraid of exactly that happening and that was the reason Widmore had to turn the FDW at some point, thereby transporting himself off the island.

Desmond and Penny's boy is called Charlie. Nice! So how old was he exactly. He looked older than two years, but he can't be much older. It was stated that Desmond was off the island for three years and as far as I'm aware off-island women are still pregnant for nine months before giving birth. Perhaps my age estimating abilities are not all that.

O, Cecil, thanks for doing the review. Jughead referred to the bomb in the episode. Was there a double meaning to the title?

@#3: Why would Widmore be extremely old? He looked about in his early 20s when on the island in '54, so in the mid-2000s he would be in his early 70s. Not very young, but definitely not extremely old.

@#6: I don't think Dharma recruited US army member per se. Dharma came to the island in the seventies I think, the army was there in the fifties.

Nice observation about Locke always looking to others for guidance. He doesn't seem to lead himself. That fits his personality as a believer: he needs outside authority which tells him he is doing okay and in which he can believe. Although, to be fair to him in this specific situation, asking Alpert how to get off the island seems the most direct way of finding out. After all, the Losties spend the best of four seasons trying to find ways of the island. Which actually raises an interesting point right at this moment in my mind: what if the US army is the source of the Other's submarine? If Locke ever flashes back to a point before he blows it up, he can use it to go back to the mainland.

Okay, I'll stop rambling and conjecturing now. :)

#14. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 29, 2009 1:34 AM

O, one more thing. :) Penny is going to LA. Ben is in LA. Widmore killed Alex. Bye bye Penny. Poor Desmond...

#15. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 29, 2009 1:47 AM

jughead=name of the bomb - written on its side.

#16. Posted by: jt at January 29, 2009 3:08 AM

@14. Plain Simple supplied.

O, Cecil, thanks for doing >the review. Jughead referred to the bomb in the episode.

and @16 jt chimed in:

>jughead=name of the bomb - written on its side.

Thanks folks. I was writing notes furiously and missed that.

#17. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 3:23 AM

For those that are wondering "Can the US Military really leave the odd H-Bomb lying around like that?"...

The answer is a qualified yes. They'll move heaven and earth to recover one, as they did retrieveing one off the ocean bottom after a B-52 collision off the coast near Palomares, Spain.

However on at least two occasions, one over Greenland and one on the Georgia coast near Savannah, H-Bombs were lost in bottom ooze or arctic ice cap and could never be found. After Herculean efforts turned up nothing, the military finally had to conclude in each case - if we can't find it no one else will, either, and the bombs are there to this day.

Perhaps it was equally hard to find the island a second time.

Now we're presented with the old stage conundrum: "If there's a gun over the mantelpiece, it had better be fired by the third act."

Will this lost bomb figure in the plot?

#18. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 3:36 AM

And to all a good night.


#19. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 3:38 AM

This isn't necessarily a plot driven point, but I have to wonder what percentage of Desmond and Penny's sons name came from Dead Oceanic Charlie and what percent came from Penny's father Charles.

#20. Posted by: Yarney at January 29, 2009 4:31 AM

@ 8 Prosecutor67 and 12 Ronny B: Interesting observation about Blondie Rifle and Widmore possibly being Faraday's parents! That would explain why Widmore was funding him and also make him Penny's brother and little Charlie's uncle. But what about the whole thing with women who conceive on the island dying? Obviously his mom did not die. Or is Blondie Rifle that Theresa woman that he experimented on?

@14 Plain Simple: excellent connecting the dots with Penny going to LA and the Ben menace being there. It explains why Widmore asked about if she was alive and also urged Desmond to go back into hiding. About the army providing the Others' sub, isn't it the Navy that operates submarines, not the army? Not entirely sure...

@5 Mike: regarding the mixed composition of Others, good observation! I think the Others go way far back, at least to the times of the Black Rock. Richard had his eyeliner on in full force, and I'm convinced he may be a pirate, or even OLDER...! The Others have taken in outsiders before, as when they kidnapped children and Tailies, prolly to maintain their numbers. They can't reproduce, as women who get pregnant on the island die, presumably taking the unborn babies with, and life on the island is, well, hazardous and people croak quite a bit. So they take the youngest and the best and slaughter everyone else. Yo, ho, ho!!!

and, finally, I'm new here, what does FDW stand for? Fuddy Duddy Wheel?

#21. Posted by: freckles at January 29, 2009 5:14 AM

I think the "remote Asian coastal village" where baby Charlie is born is in the Philippines. I'm pretty sure I saw a Filipino flag and heard some Tagalog being spoken (or saw it written?)...

#22. Posted by: CXB at January 29, 2009 5:42 AM

so i got to thinking about the whole foreshadowing element, and how the writers tend to present a question and then do a scene cut to answer that question. some of these are really subtle, and may not be obvious until later. they did this in "because you left" when sawyer asks daniel who can stop the island from jumping, and then they immediately cut to locke.

so i was thinking about the chain of events in "the lie," and went back to check the chronology of the episode. in the hotel room scene with jack and ben, jack asks ben "is he really dead?" and ben avoids the answer, saying he will "see you in 6 hours." and immediately, it cuts to the scene of hurley's dad. which isn't a big deal, except that after making his sandwich, he flips on the tv to watch "exposé." which got me thinking: was this foreshadowing at work?

now it could be a coincidence. so i went back and rewatched episode 3.14, "exposé." twice actually. once with the writer commentary. i found it interesting that this episode had been planned, in some form from season 1. one of the writers mentions that it is his favorite episode to that point. it is also mentioned that it was lindelof that suggested the "medusa spider."

so we assume that it was around this time that work was being done on the finale for season 3. where we found that someone had died, that someone being bentham. so if they had already decided at this point that it was locke, then i see it as an early indicator that maybe there is more to this than it appears. when season 4 began, they already knew it was going to involve time travel, and they introduced faraday to conceptualize this. but that is only now being actually revealed. so what if the writers set up this foreshadowing? nothing makes it into lost by chance. well, that may be exaggeration, but seemingly random occurrences seem to come back in relation to something else. and i don't think it was chance that they chose to make that exact reference to nikki and paolo.

one final word: the medusa spider only paralyzes someone for 8 hours. so that is not what happens to locke, presumably. yet i think there is more here than it appears.

#23. Posted by: jabber_wok at January 29, 2009 5:44 AM

@ 8. Prosecutor67: Hot Blond holding rifle (Ellie) = Mrs. Hawking (Eloise) = Daniel's mom - same attitude, same hair and Daniel seems to recognize her + she's in L.A. according to Widmore - same place as Mrs. Hawking and Ben.

My wife and I had the same thought as we watched. It fits with the time line and the fact that he recognized her.

@12. Ronny B: So is Faraday the son of Charles Widmore and the blonde chick with the rifle?

We followed that line of reasoning too. Makes all kinds of cool connections between Faraday and Penny. Although, how did he get the name Faraday?

Was Widmore the same soldier that wanted to chop off everyone's hands? Then he kills his fellow captive before returning to the camp to lie about what happened. He is quite the angry young man.

And I really can't believe he just gave Desmond the address of Mrs. Hawkings (if thats who it was?). That was too easy. And isn't she working with Ben? So does Widmore keep her address in his little black book?

Regarding the H bomb and the US soldiers, I assumed they stumbled on the island by mistake, like everyone else did. Not sure why they would go ahead and set up a test stand anyway, though.

I wonder if Abaddon is an other too. I bet we will see him pop up among the others in one of these time jumps sooner or later.

#24. Posted by: Frogurt at January 29, 2009 6:52 AM


I posted a time-travel theory about Locke's death at DarkUFO a few months ago. It chimes in well with the closed time-like curve of the compass.

I hold the contention that 'Bentham' is not a codename for Locke; rather they exist as separate entities.

I believe that the body in coffin is Locke - not Bentham. I think Ben and the O6 take Locke's body back to the Island (possibly into the past). They do something to reawaken the body. However, when recincarnated, it is not Locke - it's Bentham. The O6 are confused as to why Bentham doesn't recognise them, despite him having visited them in 2007. Bentham escapes from the O6 believing them to be insane.

Bentham then encounters Locke on the Island. We know from the rabbits Orientation video that there's a problem with identical entities meeting. I think that in meeting they are transported off Island, arriving sometime around 2007.

Bentham realises that he must visit the O6 in 2007, because they told him he did. He tracks them down and events happen as previously. The O6 assume that Bentham is a codename for Locke.

While doing this, Locke is tracking down Bentham, perhaps believing that it is the only way back to the Island. However, when Locke finds him, Locke is somehow killed. His body is found and assumed to be that of Bentham.

Jack and Ben visit this coffin and take the body back to the Island (possibly into the past). They do something to reawaken the body. However the reincarnated entity is not Locke - it's Bentham. The O6 are ... ... ...

ad infitum

Of course, this loop allows for Bentham to return to the Island at some stage, thus allowing Terry O'Quinn to remain an active player even though Locke is dead.

#25. Posted by: Daniel Denial at January 29, 2009 7:02 AM

Thanks for the highlights, Cecil Rose!

I really like the possibility that Faraday is Widmore and "sojer's" spawn, but one thing we have to consider is age. If he was born of those two, that would have to be in the late 50's or early 60's, right? I don't think Faraday is in his 50's (I'd say more in his early 30's). He was teaching at Oxford in the 90's, but I still don't see him being born before 1970, or 1965 at the earliest.

Did anyone get a good look at Sojer girl and the infirm girl in the bed? Do they look similar?

#26. Posted by: Gabriel at January 29, 2009 7:05 AM

I laughed when I saw "Jughead" written on the side of the bomb :)

#27. Posted by: mjpd1 at January 29, 2009 8:18 AM

"Jughead" was written on the side of the bomb.

Great episode- and nice job Cecil!

#28. Posted by: Sillygirl0630 at January 29, 2009 8:35 AM

I have to go back and watch again, but Faraday asks about concrete to bury Jughead. So Jughead is what is almost drilled into when they first show Faraday back in the Dharma days in the opener?

#29. Posted by: Steve at January 29, 2009 8:44 AM

And to all a good night.
Posted by: Cecil Rose

And well deserved, good buddy.


I also pry around the internet and there’s another site where the reviewer gives a “instant reaction” a few days before his total synopsis comes out. He does a good job but doesn’t have a lot of bloggers in his group.

He had a couple of “instant thoughts” last night that were interesting and I will paraphrase them here -

1) In referring to the preview scenes at the end of the show, he mentions that LOCKE sees the light shooting up from the Swan hatch, i.e. the closing scene from “Deus Ex Machina”. Also it appears that SAWYER stumbles upon Kate helping Claire deliver Aaron, the closing scene from “Do No Harm”. He asks if this means that SAWYER could run into HIMSELF?

His supposition is that that would rip apart the space-time continuum. He recalls the consternation of the two #8 rabbits running into each other in the Dr. Chang video.

2) He also mentioned that when DESMOND started to become “unstuck” in time, FARADAY asked him if he had been subjected to an intense dose of radiation or electromagnetic energy. Clearly, DESMOND had been exposed in the Swan Hatch explosion.

So who just got exposed to a high does of radiation in this episode?

So, thanks to “jughead”, does this explain FARADAY’S ability to obviously experience travel in time, and have a deeper understanding of the phenomenon, even more than everybody else?

We need to get this guy over here to join us.

So thanks “Brian” (whomever you are) for this extra insight.

#30. Posted by: davidrh at January 29, 2009 8:45 AM

Jughead - Great name for a hydrogen bomb. I'm sure it was just coincidence, but Life On Mars made a similar comment.

Two guys were talking about a rivalry, and one of them referenced "Archie and Meathead", so the other guy said "You mean Archie and Jughead?"

My first impression was that the drooling coma woman was Faraday's lab victim. They mentioned something about her slipping in and out of consciousness and talking to her dead father and thinking she was three years old. Not sure if Daniel made her run through the maze or not (Where's My Cheese?), but I could see him making her mind travel.

Widmore and Hawking
Sitting in a tree

And loved the Blondie reference... Blondie and Jughead being two very famous cartoon characters from the 50's. So who's Archie? Maybe Hurley's day is Dagwood? He did make that big sandwich...

#31. Posted by: ransomjackson at January 29, 2009 8:57 AM

@8 Prosecutor67: Good linkage between Mrs. Hawking-Faraday. Will she and Desmond recognize each other?

Did anyone else think Richard said to Faraday specifically, "You can't stay away can you?" (As opposed to the group thought to be US military.)

The US (and UK) tested bombs on the ground so dropping one isn't necessary. Also Claymore mines were being developed in the mid-1950's (according to Wikipedia) so their presence isn't completely unbelievable.

@12 Ronny B: No Jack? I was looking forward to noticing his breathing.

#32. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at January 29, 2009 9:02 AM

Also JWTB = Jughead Was The Bomb!

#33. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at January 29, 2009 9:02 AM

Now we know why Richard visits Locke a few years after he is born. If you all remember Richard presents Locke with several items and asks him to choose which belong to him. When Locke does not choose the compass, Richard gets upset and storms out. Locke made the right decision because that Compass never did belong to him. It was Richard's compass all along! Locke was simply holding it per Richard's request.

Overall I thought it was a great episode!

Someone needs to grab Juliet, sit her down and force her to talk about everything that she knows. Who knew that she even spoke Latin? I have a feeling there is a ton of information that is going to be revealed.....

#34. Posted by: Michael at January 29, 2009 9:05 AM

Boy there's a good reason why they rerun this show with informational subtitles every year!

I admire the regular posters to this blog for their uncanny insight, creative thinking and geniune passion for the show. Regretfully, I am too busy trying to "stimulate this economy" to spend more than a few minutes analyzing the program.


#35. Posted by: gables79 at January 29, 2009 9:07 AM

Was Blondie rifle's comment to Daniel, when first introduced as leader by miles:
'You just couldn't stay away, could you?'
a generic comment, refering to the bomb setting military, or a specific recognition of Daniel?

Is the assumption that Hawking is Dan Faraday's mom correct. LA is a big place.

Could Dan F be crazy french chicks son(the name sake thing)(just had to throw that in)?

Widmore must be an Other import-sodding British accent.

Juliet was Other recruited in 2001(lostpedia) - Can you learn latin that quick? While working full time to solve dying mother problem?

Richards line to lock was 'Look, I certainly don't want to contradict myself, but ...'

Mabuhay - sign on dock where Charlie is born = Mabuhay >is the name of a Philippine municipality, located in Zamboanga Sibugay- which is > a province of the Philippines located in the Zamboanga Peninsula region in Mindanao

The only expeditious way from the Philippines to Oxford is the Suez Canal(Somali pirates) - Des .. oh wait. That was 3 years earlier - Charlie is talking now.

Poor Penny - that was not an easy child birth.

I think the 2 red shirts with the frosties got offed by the claymores at the creek.

Did Faraday's crush on Charlotte start on the freighter, or before?

One of the arrow weilding others with Blondie rifle is a bald black dude, only one or two frames in focus-sort of- could it be .... Abadon(sp)?

been writing this since post #26 - will continue rewatch later.

#36. Posted by: mtncbn at January 29, 2009 9:08 AM

@22 CXB observed:

>I think the "remote Asian coastal village" where baby Charlie is born is in the Philippines. I'm pretty sure I saw a Filipino flag and heard some Tagalog being spoken (or saw it written?)...

Could be. When I first saw that scene I was afraid we were back in "Stranger in a Strange Land" territory and some skinny tatoo artist was going to appear.

#37. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 9:19 AM

@21 freckles wondered:

>I'm new here, what does FDW stand for? Fuddy Duddy Wheel?

"Frozen Donkey Wheel" It was Lindleof and Cuze's secret code for the big S-4 finale' reveal - the wheel in the frozen cave that Ben pushes to move the island.

#38. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 9:21 AM

Why does every television and movie program depict women screaming while giving birth? When you're in a lot of pain, you don't really have energy to scream. I've given birth twice and the best I can describe it is having really bad cramps (for men, think of intestinal cramps). Do you seriously scream when you have that pain? Uh... NO. Also how many women in the maternity ward are screaming? Uh... NONE. Just had to put my two cents in on that observation.

#39. Posted by: BEMH at January 29, 2009 9:25 AM

2 more redshirts gone leaves us with 34 Losties and a new character PiecesofSteve/Scott.

#40. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at January 29, 2009 9:26 AM

O&BTW - I find it completely fascinating/borderline implausible that, while Richard is so outside the timespace continuum and that he's been on the island seemingly forever and that he's known Locke since before he was borne, yet somehow he knew enough to know that, when he was tending Locke's bullet/leg wound that the next time they met he wouldn't know Locke.

Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet to be able to wrap my brain around that one. Or maybe there's a big clue in there. Could there be two Richards? That's a lot of eyeliner...

#41. Posted by: ransomjackson at January 29, 2009 9:38 AM

Well, too bad for "Ginger" that she can't handle the "jumps". I really feel bad for her and Faraday. I think it's a no brainer that Sojur girl and Widmore's "hanky panky" led to the man Faraday. Maybe they didn't do it until the 70's, but I'm not to concerned about the time issue, because Faraday seems to be jumping through time at will anyway, because he was at the Orchid when it was being built. I think maybe Dharma had something to do with Widmore, maybe he got mad a Richard Albert and decided to go off on his own and exploit the island for it's resources and even make a profit. That's why the others where always against Dharma. Still a bit confused about the Black Rock, although it's entirely plausible that Richard was on that boat, and was an original inhabitant of the island, as was Jacob? I think with all this time jumping, we'll inevitably find out the origin of the Black Rock soon enough. Exactly how Widmore knows what message Desmond needs to deliver is beyond me. I was assuming it was only between Faraday and Desmond, but since Faraday jumps around in time so much, he's probably let Daddy in on the secret at some point. I do like how the show has gone from stricktly flashbacks, to flashforwards, to flashf$#% my brain with all this time jumping and such. It's getting way out there, yet still holding the events together very well. I hope they don't go the whole season before the O6 finally get back to the island, but it looks like that might be the case.

#42. Posted by: soxy1824 at January 29, 2009 9:39 AM

I do believe Faraday is Widmore and Sojer girl's son. His age does seem off though as someone mentioned. Could it be he time traveled from the past to the time where we know him and that's why he seems younger?

Also I remember knowing Our Charlie's brother in Drive Shaft. Did we know his parents? Were they his real parents? Just wondering if dead rock star Charlie could be related in any way to CHARLES Widmore...If so he could be related to Farady who also is a skinny wussy guy with a similar beard...

Didn't the bomb tower look similar to the set up in the beginning of the latest Indy movie?

So Dharma's not around yet in this episode I'm assuming because Widmore hasn't left the island yet.
I don't think Widmore got off island by turning the FDW because he brought Dharma there. It was after the purge that the FDW was turned last and that the island went missing and Widmore spent 20 years trying to find it again.

--Plain Simple
say it isn't so that Ben will make good on his promise to kill Penny. After that tear jerking reunion between Des and Penny last season it would be awfully tragic. I think you're right though. I just hope Ben doesn't succeed.

#43. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at January 29, 2009 9:47 AM

Cecil Rose: you rock!
I especially liked the “Richard was not impressed – Locke said Jacob sent him – Richard was impressed” sequence. Locke is almost giddy with his call to destiny. Personally, I find Locke annoying, but Terry O’Quinn is playing the heck out of that role.

@jabber-wok/23: Regarding Locke being undead and the Medusa spider venom paralyzing for 8 hours, I read a theory that Ben has a back-up supply of spiders in the box he took from the vent in the last episode, and he’s continuously dosing Locke until they get back to the island. Seems far-out, but I’m sure Locke would have agreed to it.

The actor playing Daniel also does an awesome job conveying his secret (now not so secret) love for Charlotte. But they need to reveal something interesting about Ginger soon, because she grows tiresome (the nosebleeding is not doing it for me.)

My favorite line came from Sawyer, amidst all the Latin speak:
“Sorry to bust up the ‘You’re an Other, I’m an Other’ reunion.”

Speaking of which, Juliet is a deep and complex woman! Her Latin was ‘valde bonus.’ And she seems to know more about Richard than she has shared with the Losties.

My theory: Family ties are once again at play here. I agree with Prosecutor 67 that Blondie/Sojer Girl = Mrs. Hawking = Dan’s mum. But I think Widmore is her brother, making him Dan’s uncle. And the girl Theresa back in Oxford, could she be related somehow, also?

Now here’s my question: How did young Widmore and young Eloise (Blondie/Sojer Girl/Mrs. Hawking) get to the island in the first place? Young Widmore was wearing a military uniform that seemed to be pilfered from the dead soldiers (with the nametag “Jones”), but he was fully indoctrinated into the cult of Other. Widmore seemed annoyed that Alpert would think Locke could track him, as he knows the island so well. I think you’re onto something about Widmore being recruited by Alpert as island leader (in the same vein as Ben and Locke).

If Eloise Hawking is Widmore’s sister (or the mother of his baby), why is she helping Ben, his mortal enemy?

If Widmore wants to destroy the island, he probably sent the Daniel, Miles, Charlotte team to detonate Jughead. Remember the Dharma station where Daniel disarmed the countdown device? Maybe that’s connected to Jughead.

@Frogurt: you’re quite the popular fellow this season. Death by flaming arrow is the way to go!

@Daniel Denial: were you posting as Daniel last season, or am I thinking of someone else? Just curious.

@davidrh and ransomjackson: I can’t stop laughing at the thought of Dan making the poor coma girl run the maze. That’s just wrong!

@PiecesofArzt/32: Wasn’t it Blondie/Sojer Girl who said to Dan “You just can’t stay away, can you?” So, maybe he’ll encounter her in a previous timeframe. JWTB! (hee, hee)

@BEMH/39: “Why does every television and movie program depict women screaming while giving birth?” Amen, sister! Guess it’s a combination of dramatic effect and male writers.

Welcome back Dakota and gables79 and Morbid0 (trans-scarfual – hee, hee)!

@Plain Simple: “What’s the deal with the scarf?” you ask. Well, that’s a long story. Let’s flash back to a previous season, where we find our own dear MIF (Meg) commenting on Cindy (the flight attendant/Other recruit) and her jaunty scarf. As we tend to do ‘round here, each picked up on her comment, tossed it around with variations and extrapolations, and thus was born the sentient entity, Scarfy. The scarf has been tied to most every conspiracy theory imaginable and has made cameo appearances in many an episode (as Morbid0 pointed out, there she was in “Jughead,” wrapped lovingly around Desmond’s neck on his trip to Oxford.) At one point, our friend RNM (Red…Neck…Man) was even in a relationship with Scarfy, and her adventures continued off the island. Long live Scarfy!

#44. Posted by: Clementine at January 29, 2009 9:49 AM

How is it Charlotte was like such a total b*#!@ last season but suddenly she's Faraday's sweetie?

Were the flashbacks and flashforwards we've seen really story telling devices or were they skips through time?

#45. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at January 29, 2009 9:52 AM

I also wonder why Faraday has that last name is he is the son of Charles Widmore and Eloise.

I really am beginning to think that the names of people really have a lot more to do with the story than what we think. Read the Wikipedia page about Michael Faraday and compare his life's work with Daniel -

Are they trying to use time travel to bring back influential people of the past?

#46. Posted by: Paulo at January 29, 2009 10:00 AM

Hey, all. Good episode. I'm only at post #21 but wanted to put in my two cents:
1) My hypothesis is that the official "other" language is Latin because that is how far back the local inhabitants of the island go.
2) Richard Alpert has "eyeliner" because he is from the period of the pyramids and the ancient Egyptians as see by the heiroglyphics on their walls - everyone had those eyes in the drawings.
3) Nice one whomever it was that connected Eloise with the Sojer girl. Nice as well connecting Farraday as baby Charlie's uncle.
4) To whomever mentioned items must be in contact with a Lostie to travel with the group, as I recall the boat at the shore was there after a couple of FOOMs (thanks, Cecil) without anyone touching it. But then that being true wouldn't the compass that Locke gave to Richard also travel with Locke post-FOOM (which obviously it didn't)?

Ok, going to peruse the rest of the posts now.

#47. Posted by: LostedIt at January 29, 2009 10:01 AM

A Juliet record!! She answered two questions, in one sentence!! Her reply to Locke about the captives speaking latin - 'same reason I do, they're Others'

Why is Faradays moms entry at the very back of Widmores address book???

#48. Posted by: mtncbn at January 29, 2009 10:02 AM

Thanks Cecil for filling in this week!

Great episode...will have to re-watch. I did not think about Faraday being Sojer Girl adn Widmore's son, but I like that theory. The first thing I thought of when Faraday seemed to recognize Sojer Girl was maybe a connection with the comatose girl. I like this new theory better...

Also, I was wondering if Penny gave birth after Desmond had his "memory" from the past...? When he jumped out of bed in the last episode, after remembering Desmond asking him to find his mother...Penny ran after him to the outside of their boat...she did not appear to be pregnant. So, wherever they were...took 8 months (?) to get to the Phillipines (if that is where they were) and then maybe almost 3 years to get to Great Britain (Oxford)? That is about the age of their son as they approach in the boat. I am confused to the timeline of that and how that ties in...anyone...?

Two observations when Desmond goes to see Whidmore in his office... There were several paintings on the wall to the right of Whidmore behind his desk. (Sorry...another painting observation.) Both paintings seem to be of them has the word "NAMASTE" painted across the top. Not sure the significance or not to anything and everything. I just thought it strange. Anyone else notice...? Also, when Whidmore agrees to give Desmond Faraday's mom's info, he pulls out his planner and turns to near the end of the assumed alphabetical listings of names/addresses/numbers... Hmmm..."Faraday" would not be at the end of the alphabet...nor would "Hawkings"..."Whidmore" would be...

I need a reminder...where were Rousseou (sp?) and crew from...? Could they have been the 18 Army folks the Others in 1954 spoke of...?

I'll be back...too much to absorb and again, another re-watch is in order...

#49. Posted by: boodle at January 29, 2009 10:03 AM

Regarding Faraday and the inconsistency with his current age and being Whidmore/Hawking's spawn. Remember...he was also present in the Orchid when Chang was summoned when the FDW was discovered. Faraday appeared his current age then. He and Richard seem to be the only two who are jumping through time and do not age. Maybe Faraday discovered something during his research years...some secret Fountain of Youth...

#50. Posted by: boodle at January 29, 2009 10:08 AM

Could Faraday have been born on the island and not be properly aging, just like Richard? He was in the mine shaft with Dr. Chang. Would that explain why Widmore wants to get back to the island? To find this 'Fountain of Youth'?

Also how long has Jacob been around? Richard believed Locke's crazy story with this tidbit of information.

#51. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at January 29, 2009 10:15 AM

Back again. Some more quick things:
1) Widmore was presented as a lying coward in 1954 - lied to Richard about how he got away. I didn't realize at the time that he was wearing a uniform with someone else's name on it.
2) Someone mentioned that Charlotte looked lovingly at Faraday when he said he loved her to the Others. But the truth is that she was rather surprised to find out that he meant it and she brushed him away when he tried to get close to her right at the end of the episode. Obviously the feeling isn't mutual.
3) Could "jughead" have actually fallen from the sky and not gone off rather than been brought to the island and left over after the Others killed off the army people? ie: could someone have tried unsuccessfully to destroy the island?
Ok, more to come as I think of it...

#52. Posted by: LostedIt at January 29, 2009 10:18 AM

The episode was called 'Jug Head' because that was the name printed on the side H-Bomb - it can be seen when Faraday was climbing up the tower.

#53. Posted by: b mar at January 29, 2009 10:19 AM

I'm deeply perplexed on the fact that it appears that John Locke is in two stories on LOST at the, dare I say, same time?

1. He's in the time and story line in L.A. with Ben and the O6.

2. He's also time tunneling on the island with the shrinking passenger list, too.

How can this be?
Great job on the review and thanks from all of use here...

#54. Posted by: teddy_alvin at January 29, 2009 10:24 AM

I think Daniel's appearances in different timeframes will all be a result of the current island flashes, not that he has the ability to independently travel to specific time periods at will.

And JWTB (Jughead Was The Bomb) is quickly beocming this week's ANTP (Anyone Notice The Picture). Sigh.

#55. Posted by: Clementine at January 29, 2009 10:25 AM

Regarding Juliet learning Latin so quickly: wouldn't she, being a Dr. already be familiar with Latin? That was my first thought when she started speaking Latin.
By the way, altough I thought it was sweet that Penny and Des named the baby Charlie, I also found it weird because Penny's dad, who they are hiding from, is named Charles.

#56. Posted by: Amy R at January 29, 2009 10:27 AM

@teddy_alvin/54: The island time flashes began after the freighter explosion (which was 3 years before we see Locke in the coffin in LA). We don't know if the events on-island and off are now happening simultaneously or not. How long the skippers have been jumping will not be determined until we have the intersection of the O6 returning to the island and reconnecting with Sawyer/Juliet and party.

#57. Posted by: Clementine at January 29, 2009 10:30 AM

I dont think that Faraday is the only one jumping around time. It is clear that he is jumping along with Sawyer, Juliet, Locke and the rest of the camp. We see Faraday in the season premier bumping into Dr. Chang but I think its safe to assume that the rest of the camp is near by. I believe that Faraday is successfull in infiltrating the camp because he is the one with the most understanding of what is taking place.

#58. Posted by: Michael at January 29, 2009 10:30 AM

Lttle Charlie was born presumably nine months after Desmond first left the island three years ago.

When desmond woke up from his dream last episode, Penny said he had been off the island for three years. Though we didn't see him in that scene, little Charlie was alive and a bit over two years old. The scene where Desmond had his dream is concurrent with the other 06 scenes and takes place just before this episodes events where he went to Oxford.

#59. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at January 29, 2009 10:31 AM

Did anybody notice "jughead" printed on the side of the bomb?


and again, I say . .



#60. Posted by: davidrh at January 29, 2009 10:32 AM

Haven't read all the posts, don't know if it has been said, but the episode is Jughead because that is the name printed on the side of the H-Bomb.


#61. Posted by: Wendy at January 29, 2009 10:33 AM

Oh yeah and I think Miles was the baby!

#62. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at January 29, 2009 10:34 AM


#63. Posted by: davidrh at January 29, 2009 10:34 AM

I'm going to go do some work now. My gut hurts from laughing so hard. Later.

#64. Posted by: davidrh at January 29, 2009 10:36 AM

Jughead was the bomb?

Next you'll be telling me that Rosebud was a sled.

They say Latin's making a comback. My pet Latin phrase (yes, I have one) is:

Semper faecibus sumus. Solo prufundum variat.

#65. Posted by: ransomjackson at January 29, 2009 10:38 AM

@41 ransomjackson pondered:

>...while Richard is so outside the timespace continuum and that he's been on the island seemingly forever and that he's known Locke since before he was borne, yet somehow he knew enough to know that, when he was tending Locke's bullet/leg wound that the next time they met he wouldn't know Locke.

That one's easy. Future Richard remembers meeting Locke for the first time back in 1954. Locke probably told him in 1954 what future-Richard had told Locke, namely that their next encounter would be Richard's first, so that Richard wouldn't know him.

#66. Posted by: Cecil at January 29, 2009 10:38 AM

The Christmas Islands, specifically Tarawa NW of the Gilbert Islands, was the location of H-bomb tests in the Pacific. The tests were a joint operation of U.S. and British forces. However, they did not start the program until February, 1956. Tests were conducted in 1957-1958 (British first nuclear test was on 5-15-57). The h-bomb tests were detonated at 18,000 feet. Local civilians were evac'd to Fanning Island recording station to get away from the bomb flashes and radiation shock waves. By 1960, operations were suspended and less than 300 soldiers remained. When atomic arms talks broke down in the early 1960s, the Christmas Island testing ramped back up in 1962, when American firms came to reactivate the facilities. There were 15 detonations in this second test series. By 1964, the Brits withdrew from the area, and the US only briefly occupied the islands for the Apollo 13 splash down. In 1975, radioactive tests of the islands found normal radiation levels.

This background information is given because TPTB started to lay the foundation for the story last night. However, their time line is again off when it is mentioned that the year was 1954.

The foundation of LOST is Godzilla, which was inspired by 1950s h-bomb tests in the Pacific. The tests created a monster, who turned out to protect the native civilians from foreign or alien invaders (which had major political overtones and paranoia in post WWII Japan).

Now, re-interpreting this story, we have atomic bomb testing on a Pacific Island, a monster (Smokey) who protects the island from invaders who are attempting to displace the current civilian population. The "flashes" we see when the time jumps are actually the H-bomb "flashes" from the past (Chang indicated that a great amount of energy was needed to shift time; atomic devices could supply that energy).

So, an island, with exotic matter was used as an atomic bomb test range, which caused it to become a time vortex, until it was stablized-controlled in the 1970s, is now an unstable time-space machine?

#67. Posted by: welh at January 29, 2009 10:46 AM

Like the Godzilla parallel welh.

I also like the idea that the bomb was what Faraday was trying to detonate when he and Charlotte were in the station trying to destroy the island. Seems like maybe the bomb might come into play in the climax of the show next season...

#68. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at January 29, 2009 10:55 AM

i am knew to this, but i couldn't resist. i agree with the observation from post 8, that ellie is mrs. hawking.
i think that ellie is ms. hawking, ms.hawking is daniel's mom, and that widmore is daniel's dad.
i think that widmore and ms. hawking had a falling out. ms. hawking has teamed up with ben, against widmore.

anybody have any ideas how widmore and ellie got on the island, and how does richard know them?

#69. Posted by: dave at January 29, 2009 10:57 AM

last night's episode was great, liked it better than the first two as well. i agree with those that believe ellie is daniel's mom and cant wait to see what his connection to widmore is and why.

post#47-nice theory about richard"maybelline" alpert being ancient egyptian, definitely would explain the heiroglyphics. since richard is "old", that makes jacob "old". what is jacob's origin? egyptian or older?

is JUGHEAD what will eventually become the buried power source of the orchid station?

Juliet's been holding back, she definitely has a lot more to tell.

if anyone can get their hands on the january 19th edition of tv guide you should definitely read it. there are three great articles about LOST. one is about evangeline lilly, the other is list the 10 essential episodes carlton&lindelof recommend for review before starting season 5 and in the third article they give some key clues regarding the upcoming seasons, including mentioning sawyer gets a new love interest, rousseau will be seen again but played by a different actress and the fate of claire wont be touched on until season six. also someone presumed dead will reappear. :)

great articles if you can get your hands on it or you may be able to find the on line.

peace&love to all!!

#70. Posted by: tiffani at January 29, 2009 10:57 AM

@57/Clementine - The island time flashes began after the freighter explosion (which was 3 years before we see Locke in the coffin in LA).

I agree with your point, which is why something from last week's episode has really been bugging me. There seems to be a discrepency with the then (shortly after freighter exploded) and the now (3 years later). Daniel delivers the message to Desmond in the hatch during the "then" even if he did travel back in time to do so. Why then doesn't Desmond get this memory implanted until the "now". I would think he'd get the memory as it happened, meaning just a few hours/days after the freightor exploded which would likely put Desmond still on the raft from the chopper, in Penny's boat, or on Penny's raft heading to the Zumbabwe island (or whatever it was called). Instead he doesn't get this memory until 3 years later? Makes no sense.

#71. Posted by: BEMH at January 29, 2009 11:01 AM

@56: Amy R

They're obviously not Jewish... ;)

#72. Posted by: LostedIt at January 29, 2009 11:01 AM

Question - Could the "incident" the Dharma dudes talk about in earlier episodes be, in fact, an atomic explosion which starts the first "time shift" of events? Could Faraday (in a future episode) be the one to accidently set off this explosion while trying to disarm Jughead? Are the flashes of light before each time jump actually the atomic explosion reoccuring and/or time traveling along with the island? Could my nose stop bleeding now? How come we haven't seen any rabbits in the first 3 episodes? And finally - great job Cecil! I'm sure mac is proud of you, but watching out for his job too!

#73. Posted by: BunnyLover at January 29, 2009 11:04 AM

Hmm...I think Jughead is going to play a huge role in the last frame of the last episode of "Lost" - then the series could go out with a bang!

I wonder how Charles Widmore gets so hugely wealthy - and who's Penny's mom?

Ellie doesn't seem the marrying type; maybe Dan has her last name.

#74. Posted by: Glostover at January 29, 2009 11:06 AM

@67/welh: So the Smoke Monster is baby Cloverfield?

#75. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at January 29, 2009 11:15 AM

@54 re Locke in two story lines at once -- I also find that wierd, but then Des was in the hatch and off the island at the same time, too. Ugh.

GREAT recap, Cecil!

#76. Posted by: Glostover at January 29, 2009 11:17 AM

Does anybody else think that Jughead is buried, encased in concrete, and subsequently becomes a part of the Swan's button pushing procedures when DARMA comes to the island in the 70's?

#77. Posted by: RMgbrg at January 29, 2009 11:27 AM


As they say in Hollywood, "nothing is truly original."

#78. Posted by: wel at January 29, 2009 11:28 AM

29. Posted by: Steve
So Jughead is what is almost drilled into when they first show Faraday back in the Dharma days in the opener?

This sounds good! But how did they get it out? it wasn't there when Ben turned the wheel. Maybe it has something t0 do with the incident?

54. Posted by: teddy_
Re Locke
1. He's in the time and story line in L.A. with Ben and the O6.
2. He's also time tunneling on the island with the shrinking passenger list, too.
How can this be?

I think In LA it is 2008.
On the Island it only goes so far as new years 2005. Unless we some of the island's future.
I had not thought of Blondie and WIdmore as Faraday's parents. I like the aunt and uncle better and Eloise - Where did we hear her first name?- as Dan's mum. And therefore, Widmore and Eloise as brother sister rivals. Or was it Blondie and Widmore as sister/brother?

And really out in left filed. I thought of Boone when I heard the name Theresa.
Remember Locke's dream? Theresa falls up the stairs/Theresa falls down the stairs? Like time going back and forth? Maybe she did not die but just incapacitated. Did Teresa's sister say sometimes she is here? and sometimes she is not? Time traveling in her mind? Could there be a connection there?

#79. Posted by: berkyo at January 29, 2009 11:28 AM

@berkyo: Eloise was the rat in Daniel's maze whose consciousness time-traveled until her little brain bled out. Nice of Dan to name his rat after his mum (if that is indeed her name.)

#80. Posted by: Clementine at January 29, 2009 11:34 AM

Oops, and I meant to add, they referred to Blondie/Sojer Girl as "Ellie" in the episode.

#81. Posted by: Clementine at January 29, 2009 11:39 AM

Did anyone else notice that Walt was in a commercial for chicken nuggets last night?? I know we've seen some "fake" commercials during Lost but I'm pretty sure this was not one of them. I would say this does not bode well for Walt if the actor has already moved on to "hungry teenager #2".

#82. Posted by: amy at January 29, 2009 11:43 AM

1. I hate to be a hater, actually I'm more like a skater, but I don't buy the Faraday's mom/ Sojer girl connection. I may have to eat it, but Sojer girl is totally coma girl, Teresa. My hubby and I picked up on it at the end there. It would explain why she looks familiar to Faraday on the island. We see her in the broken lab photo with Faraday earlier. Mom might be hooked up with Widmore, but I don't think Mom is coma girl.
2. Shout out to Amy R. about Juliet's quick pick-up of Latin because she's a doctor. I was thinking the same thing. Maybe Jack and Juliet will be able to flirt in Latin in coming episodes! Wouldn't that just piss Kate off?
3. Interesting connection @30 with the Dan/ Des/ radiation deal.
4. About screaming at childbirth- definitely about the drama, but I dare say that childbirth hurts a wee bit more than cramps. Been there and felt that... midol doesn't cover what an epidural can.

Viva la Lost!

#83. Posted by: lardiea at January 29, 2009 11:52 AM

The continuing Egyptian connections:

1) Alpert is really "old," confirms Juliet. And the eyeliner was pretty darn thick in 1954.
2) Alpert states that their leaders are special people found at a young age (ex, children born of to the pharoah).
"Special" could also mean miracle children blessed by the gods: Ben was born premature in the forest and Locke was described as a miracle baby, too.
3) Egyptian leaders often came to power by killing their parent(s): Ben killed his father, and Locke (through Sawyer) killed his father.
4) When Ben told Jack to go home and pack belongings he wanted because he was never coming back. The Egyptian ritual was to bury possessions with the deceased to be used in the afterlife.

#84. Posted by: welh at January 29, 2009 11:52 AM

and in the pop-up repeat of "The Lie," it was stated that the nose bleeds of the time skippers was caused by "temporal displacement" defined as where the mind can't tell from the past, present or the future.
Was this the first time this "illness" was explained to us?
And if true, you would not die from this situation if you were "crazy?" Rousseau said her party died of the illness, but she did not.

#85. Posted by: welh at January 29, 2009 11:56 AM

-65 Ransomjackson and his pet Latin phrase

I grew up in the frozen north (aka Minnesota) and my Catholic family's motto (yes we had one) was SEMPER UBI SUB UBI - literally translated ALWAYS WHERE UNDER WHERE. That same phrase once appeared in an episode of Frasier, too.

Just had to stop the nosebleed for a bit. Back to the Island now.

#86. Posted by: lovelost at January 29, 2009 12:00 PM

Did anyone else notice the end of episode 19 of season 1 in the preview for next weeks episode? The pillar of light from the hatch was being looked at by Locke. Come on, I've looked around the net, I can't be the only one who noticed this?

#87. Posted by: mister fish at January 29, 2009 12:05 PM

When Sojer Girl says 'You just couldn't stay away, could you?' - she doesn't seem to know Faraday personally, so I'm thinking there may be another time jump coming that goes even earlier than 1954

and I really thought that Richard Alpert was actually wearing eyeliner, until I saw him in Dark Knight and he looked the same

#88. Posted by: Steve at January 29, 2009 12:14 PM

Did anyone else notice the end of episode 19 of season 1 in the preview for next weeks episode? The pillar of light from the hatch was being looked at by Locke. Come on, I've looked around the net, I can't be the only one who noticed this?
87. Posted by: mister fish


Check out Post #30

#89. Posted by: davidrh at January 29, 2009 12:19 PM

For anyone interested we live blogged this weeks episode and will continue to do so each week over at

Come join the 'Live' conversation and then as always continue it here!

#90. Posted by: Just Matt at January 29, 2009 12:24 PM

@83/lardiea point 4 - ok cramps magnified by 1000, but still it's the same feeling, as opposed to a stab wound or something. Unfortunately my epidurals didn't take since I was too far along by then, so maybe our childbirth experiences are different. Either way, I don't feel many women scream at all.

#91. Posted by: BEMH at January 29, 2009 12:27 PM

#88 it is possible to have eyeliner permanetly added to the eyes, maybe this is the case for the actor that potrays richard. but his does seem to be quite dark even for the permanent kind. :)

#92. Posted by: tiffani at January 29, 2009 12:27 PM

Leave poor Richard's eyes alone. Can't it be that he just has thick dark lashes? By the way, Jughead is the bomb : )

#93. Posted by: BEMH at January 29, 2009 12:35 PM

i like the idea of Jughead (the bomb, in case you haven't caught on) being part of a dharma station, but i'm not sure if its in the Orchid. the x-ray of the space when they are drilling doesn't seem to show any images of a jughead-esque shape. Another great thing to be curious about.

#94. Posted by: anjou at January 29, 2009 12:37 PM

I just saw the kid who plays Walt in a Tyson's chicken commercial. Guess he needs the money since he hasn't been on much.

#95. Posted by: LostIsFound at January 29, 2009 12:38 PM

What's that, you say? JWTB? Crazy, dude!

Just thinking of some of my other favorite lines:

Dan to Miles, after Miles informs him they just walked over the grave of 40 dead GIs "Did any of them mention what year it is?"

And Sawyer's double-take, as he yells at Dan for revealing they are from the future, and looks over Dan's shoulder to see Jughead: "Son of a B****!" I think the writers added that as a shoutout to all the fans who were thinking, "Yeah, that's just what we need to make things more complicated, a freakin' H-Bomb!"

#96. Posted by: Clementine at January 29, 2009 12:42 PM

i think richard is a cutie... :)

#97. Posted by: tiffani at January 29, 2009 12:49 PM

Waaay back when, Sayid was examining "something" that was buried under concrete in the hatch. "I haven't seen anything like this since Chernobyl" he commented. Last night, Daniel suggested, they get some lead or some CONCRETE to bury the bomb. Atomic bomb, radiation, bury it in concrete, it all ties together. The bomb was buried under the hatch.

#98. Posted by: The Duf at January 29, 2009 12:49 PM

Jughead was an actual (unused) hydrogen bomb from the March 1954 Bikini Atoll test:


You're right about the Claymore, Cecil - this might be an actual mistake in dating - HOWEVER, Norman Macleod did in fact produce the first Claymore by 1954 and an elite Army group could in theory have had access to it. It couldn't have been brought by a later Army group, because then it wouldn't "be there" in 1954. Thanks for the fill in for Mac - great job!

#99. Posted by: Caelum at January 29, 2009 12:51 PM

@ 86 lovelost - Took me a second, but I got it. I may have to adopt that one. Frasier was a good show. I miss Eddie/Moose.

@ 87 mister fish - I saw the pillar of light and my first thought was the Luxor casino in Vegas. Wasn't it coming out of one of the shafts?


Being from Illinois, I may also have to dopt a new non-Latin pet phrase...Son of a Blagojevich!

#100. Posted by: ransomjackson at January 29, 2009 12:55 PM

One other quick point. In the Star Trek movie 'The Undiscovered Country', the opening consists of a moon blowing up, which is later referred to as "an incident" having occurred on Praxis. Sulu is outraged. "An incident!" he shouts in disbelief.

Kind of makes you wonder how high the bar might be set for whatever "incident" is being mentioned in relation to the island. Atomic bomb going off? Eh. It was an incident, that's all.

#101. Posted by: The Duf at January 29, 2009 1:00 PM

@82 amy revealed:

>Did anyone else notice that Walt was in a commercial for chicken nuggets last night?? I know we've seen some "fake" commercials during Lost but I'm pretty sure this was not one of them.

Ooh, darn and I've already edited out all the commercials so I can't check.

#102. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 1:03 PM

@82-amy & @95-lostisfound
Yes I did notice Walt in the Ad. I'm not sure if Tyson's is a national brand so it may have only aired in the East. Pretty shrewd marketing though. Now we have Easter eggs in the ad's. Who's next?

-Hurley for Weight Watchers?
-AnaLucia for Captain Morgan or

I can already see Sawyer's commercial..."Hi I'm Sawyyer & on those days when I just can't seem to find a shirt to wear, I use Coppertone to protect me from the sun's harmful UV rays!!!

#103. Posted by: cookie at January 29, 2009 1:06 PM


haha...Jack could probably do an Advair commercial

#104. Posted by: amy at January 29, 2009 1:08 PM

@87 mister fish recalled:

>Did anyone else notice the end of episode 19 of season 1 in the preview for next weeks episode? The pillar of light from the hatch was being looked at by Locke.

Saw it, didn't necessarily connect it to Desmond's "hatch light" - good observation. Omitted it from the "next week" because some people don't like being spoiled even to this extent and I didn't want to get too specific.

#105. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 1:09 PM

@98 The Duf exposited:

>Waaay back when, Sayid was examining "something" that was buried under concrete in the hatch. "I haven't seen anything like this since Chernobyl" he commented.

GREAT observation. Wow! If so they had this planned out like four seasons ago. Fantastic tying-in.

#106. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 1:14 PM

Have we been told (or figured out) why Charlotte is on Widmore's island team to begin with?

Miles talks to the dead, Faraday is ... well, Faraday, but what is Charlotte's deal? It will be sort of annoying if her entire purpose is to get nose-bloodying time travel sickness and die. And show us that Faraday is capable of "love."

#107. Posted by: alex at January 29, 2009 1:15 PM

@99 Caelum revealed:

>Jughead was an actual (unused) hydrogen bomb from the March 1954 Bikini Atoll test:


EXCELLENT research. I've read a lot about these tests and collected film/video clips but I did NOT recall that project name.

One of my old AF bosses used to fly B-57's though the debris cloud of Pacific tests to measure fallout rates.

#108. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 1:18 PM

Okay, forgive me if any of this has already been posted. Great review.

* Jughead the name of a nuclear device design used in Operation Castle. The test took place in 1954 at or near Bikini Atoll. Jughead is the design name, not the device name.

* I love the reference to the fact that the compass has never bee made, it just exists.

* Charlie is an awesome name.

* Widmore is one of the military guys, and an other. Why do they not use Latin all the time?

#109. Posted by: onelostdude at January 29, 2009 1:19 PM


I'll be back with some insight... hopefully. Time to read Cecil's recap!

#110. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at January 29, 2009 1:34 PM

TPTB have worked in early comments from way back. I'm not sure whether they put them in way back knowing were they where going, or reverse engineered them in later.

I was rewatching 1x05-White Rabbit- and was caught by Locke's line 'And besides, I know where to look' when he went and found and saved Jack who had fallen off a cliff chasing Christian.

Something else that I didn't catch the first time- read somewhere- is that Christian led him to the caves and water.

#111. Posted by: mtncbn at January 29, 2009 1:45 PM

If the Others took the army tents and fatigues from the soldiers, where did they live and what did they wear before? Seems a little primitive for how much they know.

I buy the Ellie=Hawkings connections but somehow I don't think Faraday is Widmore's kid. Maybe Penny is Ellie and Widmores and that's why she never mentions a mother. I really hate it when kids in shows don't bear any resemblance to their parents. At least they get younger actors who are dead ringers for the older one.

There must be much more to the story of Ellie/Charles/Faraday since Widmore gave up her address without much of a fight.

There's a circular element to the Richard gives Locke a compass to give back to him in the past (only to give it to him again in the future). seems like they would be stuck in a loop somehow.

Why isn't anyone asking more from Juliet? She learned latin and ninja moves in three years? She refers to herself as an Other, but what is the criteria?

Penny is going to have to dodge some bullets.....

#112. Posted by: EthansGirl at January 29, 2009 1:47 PM

80. Posted by: Clementine
@berkyo: Eloise was the rat in Daniel's maze whose consciousness time-traveled until her little brain bled out. Nice of Dan to name his rat after his mum (if that is indeed her name.)

Thansk! And I think someone posted that blondie was called Ellie. Must be her.

98. Posted by: The Duf

Waaay back when, Sayid was examining "something" that was buried under concrete in the hatch. "I haven't seen anything like this since Chernobyl" he commented. Last night, Daniel suggested, they get some lead or some CONCRETE to bury the bomb. Atomic bomb, radiation, bury it in concrete, it all ties together. The bomb was buried under the hatch.
Great thought! I thought of "the Incident" but did not remember Sayid's words until you reminded me.

#113. Posted by: berkyo at January 29, 2009 1:49 PM

So I just finished reading the review and I haven't read anyone's posts yet.

I'm sure someone said this already, but just incase:

@ Cecil -- "Jughead" was referring to the H-Bomb. (Because "Jughead" was written on it when they showed it up close).

Time to read posts now. =]

#114. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at January 29, 2009 1:50 PM

@98 The Duf:

i had exactly the same thoughts, the bomb is the reason behind the several feet of Chernobyl like concrete used in the hatch. What Farday was disarming last season was some kind of chemical gas, not hydrogen bomb.

As for the arial bomb, the crack, the crude tower suspension, etc leads me to believe that this bomb was dropped on the island rather than brought there for testing. However, because of the island anti-gravitational properties (Losties survived a mid air plane crash, right?) the impact was so less and only cracked the shell. US army probably came looking for it.

#115. Posted by: aj at January 29, 2009 1:59 PM

Had not heard this one before, not at all. The below is from darkUFO - due credit given.

The one thing this does NOT explain is something that's always bothered me since the pilot episode: the captain of flight 815 wears WWII pilot's wings. This alone could be chalked up to nostalgia, but then so do the flight attendants, and so does that rotten traitorous Cindy. These wings were issued to airmen only during the WWII era, and were changed just afterward. There's no logical reason for everyone on board to have a pair. Watch the pilot episode again - the camera even focuses specifically on the wings when Kate finds them in the jungle. I've often wondered if this was the thing the producers said that 'everyone missed' in the pilot (if it wasn't that unknown black tube next to Jack). In any case, I've now got a theory behind why this is happening.

#116. Posted by: mtncbn at January 29, 2009 2:01 PM

Wow, this guy is an encyclopedia, Vozzek69, (review on darkUFO, as above)

I think we've seen more than our fair-share of off-island agents. These are people who are "in the loop" - I mean that in more ways than one - and have been helping to guide the main characters through the current string of time. Take the butcher woman from last week. And now take the librarian from this week, who happens to be the very same woman (Jenna?) who Hurley hugs right before he gets on flight 815: She actually uses the phone and checks with someone named Hunter before letting Hurley on the flight, telling him that it's his lucky day. Was Hurley supposed to make the flight? The woman at the other counter didn't seem to think so. But Jenna helps get him on the plane, even after the Jetway closed.

If it's possible, he may need intervention more than I. (to withdraw from LOST)

#117. Posted by: mtncbn at January 29, 2009 2:08 PM

Great to see Richard Alpert being fleshed out even further. As many have commented on, RA's (aka Captain Jack Sparrow) back story goes back as far as Jacob. Even as Locke is giving him a lesson in Future 101,

Alpert seems to be still playing and grooming him for future duty. Last night lines like "excuse me from contradicting myself" and "that is privileged information" further confirms he's (as always) a few moves ahead on the chess board.

#118. Posted by: Archie at January 29, 2009 2:10 PM

I'm sure someone said this already, but just in case:

@ Cecil -- "Jughead" was referring to the H-Bomb. (Because "Jughead" was written on it when they showed it up close).
114. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx


Everyone, all together now:


I feel better now.

#119. Posted by: davidrh at January 29, 2009 2:23 PM

@mtncbn/117: Here’s an article explaining the reappearance of the actress who played the libarian. Looks like a case of producers looking to use local Hawaiian actors, no relationship to the story. But I copied the relevant section below, because I thought it was humorous.

(change the * to a period)

Taheny acted in the season one finale, but is one of a few actors whose looks have changed so much since then that she was allowed to come back.

Followers of "Lost" may remember her as Jenna, the Australian gate attendant who got a bear hug from Hurley when she got him aboard the ill-fated flight. This season, she'll play a British archivist named Moira in an episode called "Jughead."

Taheny wound up looking like her mother, she said.

"They put my hair in a bun and I had absolutely no makeup at all," she said. "I think I looked really tired."
Hair changes made her less recognizable, which is important for "Lost" because its followers pay freakishly close attention to everything, Taheny said. People have recognized her at other productions and autograph requests have been mailed to her home.

"They think that if I show up as a different character or a different person there is some conspiracy going on," she said.

And that's the curse of being a day player on "Lost."

#120. Posted by: Clementine at January 29, 2009 2:26 PM

@119 davidrh sang:


I hate these chorus warm-ups.



#121. Posted by: Cecil at January 29, 2009 2:39 PM

Hi all, long time blog reader, enjoy everyone's contributions. I may have posted once or twice before, but honestly can't remember...Anyhow, better get this in before I WOOOSH!

Two things before I get into the meat of my comments. First, I think Clementine mentioned about Daniel's time travelling appearance when Chang and the drillers found the FDW. She wondered if Daniel was the only one. Before we see Daniel show up, I thought I saw Sawyer there. When Chang is filming the orientation video, I thought Sawyer (though a cleaned up version of him) was the guy behind the camera doing the filming. Second, I loved Miles's comments. ("Yeah, I'm fine, too, thanks for asking." I thought he was rubbing his hands on his body to make sure that all parts of him made the time jump.)

Richard seems to be the leader of the 1954 Others. All of the Others seem to defer to him. Seems like they always defer to him. Perhaps he is the First Mate to Jacob's Captain. (Or maybe Richard is really the Dread Pirate Roberts.) Young Chucky is with them, but is contentious even then. He lies about how he escaped, and he kills his own companion in the process. He is a lying murderer. (Good to see that some things don't change.)

Lots of interesting comments about Eli (Sojer Girl) and Eloise Hawking (if that's her real name). I do believe that they are one and the same person as well. Eli "looks familiar" to Farraday. I think it's the she looks familiar in that old photo kind of way. As a child you have a certain perception of how your parents look, but seeing younger versions of them in old black and white pictures gives them an otherworldly "looks familiar" kind of feel. I think this is the case with Dan and Eli. She could very well be his mother. I think she is.

However, I don't think Chucky Whidmore is the dad there. While young Eli and young Whidmore both seem to be quite the militants, and both seem to have aged off-island, I don't think they are/were a couple even though the elder Whidmore had "Farraday's mother's" contact info in his little black book. I don't think they are young militants in love. They both are trying to find the island again, but I think they are doing so for very different reasons.

Daniel let's it slip about the time travelling to her. Then the time phaze occurs, which she sees first hand. (This could be the start of her curiosity/research into it.) Richard sees it firsthand as well, since he was talking to Locke when it happened. Miles and Ginger Nose Bleed were in a tent, so nobody saw them vanish. I believe she talks to Richard after the Losties whoosh out on her. She and Richard compare notes, but young Chucky is not privy to that discussion.

Whidmore, I believe, wants to get back there for the "Fountain of Youth" to get the gray out of his hair -- or just to get his hair back altogether. But he had sent Keamy to kill everyone but Ben. Why? Wouldn't that mean he was trying to kill Richard and the other Others as well? I think so. I think Richard found Young Chucky unsuitable to be leader, so engineered a way to get him off the island. Chucky wants revenge -- on Ben, on Richard, on everyone!

I believe the island has been moved before. Possibly, Chucky himself was the one who moved it, possibly he was even forced to move it in the way that Ben was. Or Eli moved it. Or someone else moved it. In any event, some event will happen that results the island being moved and Whidmore and Eli are either not on the island when it moves (and thus can't get back to it easily) or are somehow involved in moving it (ie., the FDW turner as Ben was). Is it possible that the island HAS been moved before? And then when Ben spins the wheel it gets moved AGAIN? There would be two events of the island phazing about on the time shift pendulum. Maybe there are two overlapping storylines of island hopping that Locke and the O6 have to stop the one shift in order for Richard/Eli to stop the other and rescue Jacob. One of the time shifts could be the "course correction" for the other.

#122. Posted by: gumbo at January 29, 2009 2:49 PM

Actually Cecil, mine was meant to be more of a primal scream than front row at a Wagnerian opera . . .

#123. Posted by: davidrh at January 29, 2009 2:50 PM

Way back "when" in S1 or S2, we find out where Hurley (Hugo) got the winning lottery numbers. From the "army" dude that was in the mental institute with him. If I recall correctly, the army dude said he and his Australian buddy (the one Hurley goes to see later only to find out he’s dead), were monitoring a repeating transmission during the war, which turns out to be “the numbers.” Any chance this “army dude” and/or the Aussie could have been on the island looking for Jughead? (May have been navy, but I seem to recall people debating why an army guy would be on a navy carrier?) Help me remember folks, my nose is still bleeding… Anyone remember their names??? Anyone???

#124. Posted by: BunnyLover at January 29, 2009 2:57 PM

Well its been awhile since I've posted, but its good to be back. Mac, I promise I never 'abbaddoned' you! :0)

@47 Lost It said: 1) My hypothesis is that the official "other" language is Latin because that is how far back the local inhabitants of the island go.

2) Richard Alpert has "eyeliner" because he is from the period of the pyramids

Do you think that your conjecture above also explains the big 4 toed statue we saw so long ago? Another Collosus of Rhodes more or less?

@ 107: Charlotte is an arhaeologist. She was in on the dig in Tunisia that unearthed Dharma related items. I guess that is why she was added to the team. Plus she stated something about looking for her home...

Question: Is Charlotte dying because she is being forced to time hop with the Frosties but is actually island born other who was taken from her home as a child?

Does anyone else remember RA from Suddenly Susan with Brooke Shields? No heavy eyeliner back then. Hey Brooke was in a movie stranded on a tropical island. Connection???

Good to be back! Namaste.

#125. Posted by: BELost at January 29, 2009 2:57 PM

Lostpedia has an interesting Jughead connection. It mentions a 1990 cartoon series, "Jughead's Time Police" where he time travels to fix changes in the timeline. Does anyone know about this? Also, Jughead's last name is Jones.

#126. Posted by: Hotpocket23 at January 29, 2009 3:02 PM

Has anyone made the Eloise Hawking/Stephen Hawking (the physicist) connection yet?

#127. Posted by: Samuelle at January 29, 2009 3:11 PM

Just found this while checking out the nuclear testing experiments on wikipedia ... when they allowed the the original ihabitants of the islands to go back sometime in the mid to late 70's after the radiation levels began to subside it said ...

It was not uncommon for women to experience faulty pregnancies, miscarriages, stillbirths and damage to their offspring as a result of the nuclear testing on Bikini Island

the US government paid over 150 million dollars in restitution

I think were starting to get some answers.... or just more questions!

#128. Posted by: katewannabe at January 29, 2009 3:22 PM

@124: Great catch! Totally forgot about Crazy Man but it makes sense now.

#129. Posted by: EthansGirl at January 29, 2009 3:25 PM

It really makes sense that Jughead was buried @ the Swan sight. Widmore would know it was there so that's why DHARMA would build that station there. Is it possible that the numbers & button pushing were related to the bomb. After all, the button didn't always have to be pushed. That only existed since DHARMA. Desmond's failsafe key & his resulting travels seem to be caused by the bomb.

#130. Posted by: Hotpocket23 at January 29, 2009 3:30 PM

HMMM…Penny seems to be know more than she says, Penny seems to be lying to Des…Penny is the daughter of a Other (maybe the most powerful Other) HMMMM?

#131. Posted by: JR at January 29, 2009 3:32 PM

Righteous job, Cecil! Thank you! I love reading everyone's posts...insightful room of folks. JWTB, lol. Jughead and Archie, lol... Jarhead?

I like Faraday's character, he's kinda quirky but uber intellect, but lovable, like the absent-minded professor. How sweet when he professed his love to Charlotte! I like Miles too...comedic relief.

agree with BEMH et al...leave Richard alone! The actor is either Mexican, Spanish, Italian perhaps Indian, and obviously has long thick dark eyelashes. Look at a closeup...there's no evidence of eyeliner, real or tattooed! I think it's cool how he never ages. My only open-jawed moment was when 50s Richard said Stand down WIDMORE! Also an ah-ha moment, because I didn't like the guy even before I knew it was Widmore! So that's how he knows about the island, hehe!

Ugh I wish they'd write Juliet off the show, she's annoying. She talks like she's stoned all the time. Maybe Sawyer needs to roll her hay or something.

Poor Des, but exciting! Way to go Penny for standing by your man! Charlie's their son, how cool is that. And how interesting that her father's name is Charles. Des looked hot with his shades, strolling around Oxford.

Someone up above was theorizing about Bentham and Locke, made my head spin, lol. There are half a dozen huh? moments in each show, ha.

You guys rock...

#132. Posted by: silkyway at January 29, 2009 3:39 PM


Very Interesting thought JR. It "was" a little unbelievable to hear Penny crater and say she'll follow Des "again". Think her character is expendable (at least in real time) to set up the fireworks between Ben and Charles.

#133. Posted by: Archie at January 29, 2009 3:41 PM

@ 124. Posted by: BunnyLover
Leonard Simms was a U.S. naval officer stationed in the South Pacific before and/or during 1988. With his friend and fellow officer Sam Toomey, Leonard monitored longwave radio transmission at a government listening post.
In 1988, the station picked up a transmission consisting of the numbers 4 8 15 16 23 42 repeating on a loop. (Danielle Rousseau and her science team also caught the transmission around that same time.) The Numbers stayed with Leonard and Sam. After Toomey used the numbers in a game of chance, a plague of bad luck seemed to befall those around him. Leonard and Sam believed the Numbers to be cursed, driving Sam to suicide, and Leonard to insanity.
At an unknown time, Leonard was admitted to Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute. He spent all of his time playing the game Connect Four with himself, while endlessly repeating the numbers.

that was from Lostpedia....

#134. Posted by: Skipper at January 29, 2009 3:46 PM

So apparently in "Jughead's Time Police," he is given a special beanie by someone unknown. This beanie allows him to travel back & forth in time however he wants. Does this mean Cindy's scarf is the key to the time jumping mystery?

#135. Posted by: Hotpocket23 at January 29, 2009 3:46 PM

I wonder what would happen to Des if Ben gets to Penny when they arrive in LA. Will it matter that his constant is gone should she die?

#136. Posted by: Hotpocket23 at January 29, 2009 3:55 PM

good question hotpocket!!

TPTB did say one character would die in february, maybe its penny and that is why des returns to the island despite his insistence he would NEVER return.

#137. Posted by: tifani walton at January 29, 2009 4:00 PM

Regarding the numbers. If they have to do with the US Army in the 1950's why would the DHARMA initiative put them on the hatch twenty years later? I wonder if the numbers on the hatch will ever be explained.

#138. Posted by: Rudy at January 29, 2009 4:03 PM

Miles Straume – Elli, AKA Sojer Girl says something to Daniel Faraday about how he may have fooled RA but she knows that an American, a Brit and a CHINESE guy aren’t part of the American army. Daniel doesn’t confirm or deny whether Miles is Chinese or not, so can we go ahead and assume that he’s not Korean and doesn’t have ties to Jin, Sun, etc? His last name, Straume, is a city in Norway. I wonder if that means anything. does Straume mean candle or wick in Norwegian?

Daniel Faraday – I think that Faraday is in his mid 30s because the girl he left behind (Theresa?) seems to be that age and they were obviously a couple before he left her. Older guys can date younger girls and vice versa but it’s usually an exception. I think it’s safe to assume (for now) that Daniel is in his mid 30s in 2007 and that he appeared at the Orchid b/c he was time jumping, not b/c he has anti-aging powers like RA.

Charlotte Lewis – Does Daniel love her b/c she is his daughter or sister? He never says that he’s in love with her…. just that he loves her and would never do anything to harm her. He never makes a move on her (that I can remember) and even has a significant other (no pun intended with the word “other”) waiting for him at home.

#139. Posted by: Skipper at January 29, 2009 4:07 PM

1954 – When Juliet says that she speaks Latin b/c she is an “other” how do Widmore and his friend even know what the word “other” means? Didn’t the 815ers coin that term?

#140. Posted by: Skipper at January 29, 2009 4:08 PM

@139 Skipper asked:

>His last name, Straume, is a city in Norway. I wonder if that means anything. does Straume mean candle or wick in Norwegian?

I think his name is just a play on words -

"Miles Straum" = "Maelstrom"

#141. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 4:11 PM

@140 Skipper wondered:

>1954 – When Juliet says that she speaks Latin b/c she is an “other” how do Widmore and his friend even know what the word “other” means? Didn’t the 815ers coin that term?

Yes, although I think they got it, perhaps indirectly, from Rousseau.

Juliet uses the word because she's been hanging around with the Losties.

I posted last year that we'd go a very long way toward solving one of the mysteries of the island if we knew what the Others called themselves.

Dharma called them "The Hostiles".

Losties call them "The Others".

But we've never heard the others characterize themselves except for Ben's flip exchange with Michael in the S-2 finale':

"Who are you people?"

"We're the good guys, Michael."

#142. Posted by: Cecil at January 29, 2009 4:19 PM


Good job covering for Mac. I'm just going to make a few observations that may have already been mentioned.

The woman that Desmond goes to see that is catatonic is the same woman in the picture with Daniel Faraday that Desmond found in the lab. She is the young woman referred to by the janitor. I'll bet anyone dollars to donuts that she was Daniel's lab assistant and was accidentally exposed to his 'time travel' experiment or she was his first 'human trial' - her current state is due to the fact that like the late Minkowski and, for a short time Desmond, her consciousness is flitting about in time.

2nd observation: Mrs. Hawking is Daniel's mother - more of a guess than an observation but an educated guess. Widmore tells him that she's in LA and we saw Mrs. Hawking telling Ben that he has 70 hours to get back to the island. We know Ben is in LA trying to recruit everyone b ack to the island - so it goes to reason that she's his mother.

Widmore young and on the island ! ! ! Now that blew me away.

This season is only 2 episodes in and it has reminded me many times over of why I love this show sooooooo much. I already own the first 4 seasons on DVD and Blu-Ray and I'm going to by the complete series boxed set that's due for release in 2010 - then I'll be hiding away for about 3 weeks to watch the entire series soup to nuts. LOL

#143. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at January 29, 2009 4:19 PM

@143 Mister_Grimm mentioned:

>I already own the first 4 seasons on DVD and Blu-Ray and I'm going to by the complete series boxed set that's due for release in 2010 - then I'll be hiding away for about 3 weeks to watch the entire series soup to nuts. LOL

Will the complete series boxed set give you anything that wasn't on the individual season boxed sets, do you think?

What say we take our boxed sets and edit the whole thing into chronological order, flashbacks and all. As it stands now, last night's ep would have the first scene. Would it make it any more understandable?

#144. Posted by: Cecil at January 29, 2009 4:26 PM

Cecil - what do you think about Charlotte being Daniel's sister? He loves her... but he didn't say that he was in love with her. Can you think of anything (physical contact or something that was said)that would discount that?

#145. Posted by: skipper at January 29, 2009 4:26 PM

@ 140 Skipper
1954 – When Juliet says that she speaks Latin b/c she is an “other” how do Widmore and his friend even know what the word “other” means? Didn’t the 815ers coin that term?

I seem to remember that Russeau called them that when Sayid first encountered her. Does anyone else remember that?

#146. Posted by: Amy R at January 29, 2009 4:27 PM

@145 skipper inquired:

>Cecil - what do you think about Charlotte being Daniel's sister? He loves her... but he didn't say that he was in love with her. Can you think of anything (physical contact or something that was said)that would discount that?

Slim evidence either way. Just based on gut feel, I'd say it looks like romantic love to me, not fraternal.

And don't forget Sun and Jin's whispered "Do you think she knows he loves her?" "She's a woman. She knows."

#147. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 4:32 PM

Can someone remind me what the acronym FDW stands for.

(I'm sure as soon as I press send it'll come to me....)


#148. Posted by: Roggie at January 29, 2009 4:34 PM

FDW = frozen donkey wheele

#149. Posted by: skipper at January 29, 2009 4:39 PM

I think that Teresa was part of Daniel's experiments. Her sister told Des that Whidmore was funding his research for 10 years and something to the effect that he took responsibility for results of that research...funding for the care of the "time jumping" Teresa.

Another odd thing...or maybe nothing... Through the whole episode, Desmond had a different slip of paper with information about the people he was looking for. When searching for the doctor, he had a crumpled up paper in his hand. What could have been written on that paper..."the doctor"...? He apparently didn't need something to tell him that since he was shouting it through the street. I don't think it had an address, because he didn't seem to know where he was going... The other time...assume the address of Teresa was written on another piece of paper... The last time would be the name of Daniel's mother and address in L.A. That one may be the most significant...her name would be on there...maybe other information... Probably means nothing...Lost just makes me wonder about anything that happens "possibly" has a meaning or reason.

Oh the scenes for next week's episode, you see Charlotte up and with the group. Saw no blood on her face...maybe she recovered.

#150. Posted by: boodle at January 29, 2009 4:53 PM

If Penny has to die in order for Desmond to return to the island, does anyone think that Sayid may be her executioner (Sayid has been Ben's personal assassin)? Could it make dramatic sense? What complications would ensue between Desmond and Sayid afterwards?

#151. Posted by: RWW at January 29, 2009 4:56 PM

Other than Desmond tearing out Sayid's liver and eating it, you mean?

#152. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 4:58 PM

@36 mtncbn posted:

Mabuhay - sign on dock where Charlie is born = Mabuhay >is the name of a Philippine municipality, located in Zamboanga Sibugay- which is > a province of the Philippines located in the Zamboanga Peninsula region in Mindanao

According to internet translation sources (and I think I sort of remembereed this, too) "mabuhay" means "hello" in tagalog.

#153. Posted by: Cecil at January 29, 2009 5:43 PM

When Sojer Girl points her M1 at the frosties and asks "Who's in charge here?" and Miles points to Dan and says "He is", I flashed back to last week's House episode, "Painless".

A large burly man bursts into the diagnostician's meeting and asks "Which one of you is House?".

House points at Foreman and says "The big black guy." The intruder is not fooled and hands House a subpoena.

After he leaves Foreman gives House a look, and House says "Can you blame me? The last guy that asked that shot me?" (S-1 finale')

#154. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 5:55 PM

@#57 "We don't know if the events on-island and off are now happening simultaneously or not."

Of course they are not happening simultaneously. On-island happened in 1954 (at least in this episode), off-island happened 3 years after the O6 returned, so that makes it 2007 or 2008 I think.

@#71 "Why then doesn't Desmond get this memory implanted until the "now". I would think he'd get the memory as it happened, meaning just a few hours/days after the freightor exploded"

'As it happened' would be at some point during the period in which Desmond was in the hatch, not after the freighter exploded.

They are time travelling here, the whole point of that is, it seems to me, that the characters on and off the island are in different points of time. The fact that we as viewers see the different events all wrapped in one episode doesn't mean anything. Back in season 1 when we had the flashbacks, you wouldn't have said that the flashbacks were happening at the same time as the on-island events, right?

The theory that Jughead has something to do with "The Incident" is an interesting one, although I'm still leaning more towards the "time displaced individual meets him/herself" idea, like the nr 8 bunnies. And my best guess is that Locke is this individual.

#155. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 29, 2009 6:07 PM

That Latin speaking got me thinking again about something kind of silly and far out (or is it...;-)that I had let go a while ago - If you look at :55 seconds in the Room 23 brainwashing video:

you will see a statue that certainly for me evokes thoughts of 4 toed enigmas. I was always convinced that the statue was Diana, the Roman goddess, because of what looks like a quiver of arrows on her back and the hound at her side. Today I actually managed to find a photo of the statue:

and it is indeed Diana and is in a series of photos of Roman statuary (although it doesn't say where). Whether that qualifies as a Roman/Latin connection, I don't know, but I thought I'd toss it out there for you to munch on. And on an even sillier note, you may remember that Wonder Woman, aka Princess Diana/Diana Prince, was named for the Goddess Diana and came from Paradise Island (Themyscira):

Some tidbits from that page:

"When the Amazons lose favor with their gods they are given immortality and sent to a far away island. Beginning in a parted Aegean Sea, it takes three months before the Amazons arrive at the hidden Paradise Island, later retitling it "Themyscira" after their fallen home. While on the island they are assigned to guard a doorway to Tartarus which lies beneath the island for the rest of their lives."

"As decreed by the goddesses, Hippolyta lead the remaining Amazons to a remote island, where as penance for their failures as teachers they became guardians of Doom’s Doorway, preventing the escape of the monsters beneath. Renaming the paradise island Themyscira after their fallen capitol, the Amazons began their new lives, erecting buildings and monuments, perfecting their skills as artisans and warriors."

"The island(s) can shift its location over both land and time."

"Occasionally, the Nereides would bring to the shores of Themyscira young infants who would have drowned otherwise in accidents. Called "sending forth", these infants would wash up on the shores of Paradise Island, be tutored spiritually in Amazonian ideals, and then sent back mystically to the place of their disappearance."

#156. Posted by: Caelum at January 29, 2009 6:27 PM

@Clementine 44

My God, you're right! Or nearly: looking back I was posting as Danny (and have done since S2) - the Daniel Denial name is what I use on DarkUFO. Guess it's followed me here now.

#157. Posted by: Daniel Denial at January 29, 2009 6:27 PM

Hey, all. Back again. Great episode, and great review! Just my random thoughts...

1. Jughead was the bomb!?! Really, I had no idea! 'Cause I didn't pay attention to the 400,000 posts before me that said the same thing...

2. When Alpert called him 'Widmore', my initial thought was that he was related to Charles Widmore somehow. I keep forgetting what time period we're in. Chuckie must be older than I thought.

3. When we found out that they had named their son 'Charlie', I had a little 'Ohhhh' moment. I loved Charlie; he was one of my favorite characters. I even picked up the habit of writing FATE on my fingers from him.

4. I love the Ellie=Danny's Mom theory, but I'm not too keen on Chuckie=Danny's Dad. It just seems kind of... out there. But, then again, look at the show we're talking about...

5. I think Charlotte's done for. Maybe not right away, but she'll die eventually. She has to; Danny just professed his love for her. Obviously they can't let her live after that!

6. Once again, we have another birthing scene. We've seen soooooo many of those... and all with a special legs-together technique that produces clean, month-old babies. Well, hey, it worked in Star Wars...

7. Miles is growing on me. Then again, Daniel is too. I like them both. Charlotte has the coolest eyes, but I can't really stand her. On the other hand, I'm starting to wonder where Frankie is. Last we saw him, he was on Penny's HMS Love Boat... where did he go after that? Anybody know?

8. The official Other language is Latin... so why do they speak English when a group of them host a book club? Don't get it...

9. So, Des and Penny have been doing what exactly for three years? Having a baby, yes, but besides that. Before Desmond gets that memory back of Danny back or whatever, what have they been doing? Anything in paticular? Or just roaming the world and living in their little yacht-thing? If that's the case, why don't they just settle down in an apartment somewhere? I must be missing something... I think they're in hiding... ???. I dunno.

So, yeah. That's all for now. Cheers.

#158. Posted by: Mrs. Ford at January 29, 2009 6:40 PM

JUGHEAD was on the bomb itself

#159. Posted by: thomas at January 29, 2009 6:44 PM

There was a sign that said "Mabuhay" which is Ilocano (or one of the many Filipino dialects) so Desmond was in the Philippines looking for a doctor.

#160. Posted by: aurora at January 29, 2009 6:51 PM

@Plain Simple/155: regarding my #57 "We don't know if the events on-island and off are now happening simultaneously or not."

What I was trying to articulate(but not very effectively) was that we don't know if the perception of the passage of time for the skippers is the same as for the O6 off-island. For example, if Sawyer/Jules (et al) skip a few more times and then Locke leaves and then they skip a few more times and then Locke comes back with the O6, will they perceive the passage of time since the freighter exploded to be hours, days, or years? I doubt they'll perceive it to be 3 years.

Chronologically, I think Jack and Kate will be 3 years older, and Sawyer and Juliet won't have aged a day. Which may explain Mr. Alpert's eternal youth (if he's a frequent skipper.)

So, maybe Des is getting the implanted memory of seeing Dan at the exact time Dan skipped to that point on the island (even though it's years later for Des off-island).

Not sure if that makes sense, but I tried!

@Daniel Denial aka Danny: Yep, that was your name!! :)

You posted some of my favorite caption entries last year, so I was wondering if it was you. I like to know with whom I am "speaking."

#161. Posted by: Clementine at January 29, 2009 7:08 PM


If Penny has to die in order for Desmond to return to the island, does anyone think that Sayid may be her executioner (Sayid has been Ben's personal assassin)? Could it make dramatic sense? What complications would ensue between Desmond and Sayid afterwards?
→ 151. Posted by: RWW at January 29, 2009 4:56 PM

Other than Desmond tearing out Sayid's liver and eating it, you mean?
→ 152. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 29, 2009 4:58 PM

I laughed til I cried. Thanks, Cecil! (and RWW for the unintentional set-up)!

#162. Posted by: Clementine at January 29, 2009 7:15 PM

I still can"t find it in my heart to trust Julliet....!

#163. Posted by: Jack Bin Lock at January 29, 2009 7:23 PM

Thanks, Cecil Rose, for pinch-hitting in Mac's absence. Superb job on the recap!

Here's a thought: do the numbers (say them with me: 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42) have anything to do with the skips in time? Can anyone work that out or is it too far fetched? I'm talking from the first jump (4 years back) to the next (another 8 years) to the next...etc?

If last night's bomb scene was a flash to 1954 and we know the crash was 2004, then that is 30 years back: 4+8+15 then plus the three post-crash years.

Nah -- maybe this doesn't work....

#164. Posted by: GatorGal at January 29, 2009 7:30 PM

I don't think anyone's mentioned this, but do we know how Locke got off the Island, or haven't they gotten to that storyline yet?

#165. Posted by: Christina at January 29, 2009 7:35 PM

Christina - we know Locke gets off the island, but up til now, it hasn't been revealed how.

#166. Posted by: Steve at January 29, 2009 7:41 PM

That's what I thought...thanks, Steve!

#167. Posted by: Christina at January 29, 2009 7:53 PM

I'm only at post 47 but I wanted to set the record straight (no skips hopefully): I do believe that Farraday's mom is Mrs Hawking but I didn't suggest he was Widmore's son (I like the idea though...)

Back to the posts...

#168. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at January 29, 2009 8:09 PM

@ jt and Plain Simple...
You're right. Jughead was the nickname for the Mark 17 and Mark 24 mass-produced hydrogen bomb in the early 1950's.

#169. Posted by: Maxlife at January 29, 2009 8:21 PM

Point's and Theories I noticed:

1: (Regarding Bomb) I noticed that Daniel said that the needed to be buried, and the Swan was also burried too. So Dharma, when creating the Sawn, found the bomb. (The Incident)And rapidly constructed a way a contain the leaked bomb. I seem to remember Desmond saying :"It'd take an atom bomb." When Eko threatened to blow down the blast-doors. When Des turned the key, it opened the leak and detonated the bomb.

2: (Regarding Daniel's mother)I think that Daniel's mom was the blonde girl holding the gun, he reffered to her as familiar. Her name was Ellie, and this was 50 years ago, and Mrs. Hawkins is old, blonde, and into physics. So it's possible that upon meeting her future son, she was driven to know the ability of time-travel, getting herself, and evevtually Daniel in to advanced sciences.

3: (Regarding Latin.) Anyone else notice when Juliet said all others know Latin? Anyone else recall that it was Latin that was scribbled all over the blast-door map. So I think that Kelvin, infiltrated the Swan Station, (possibly by accident, seeings how the others didn't know about it) and blew Radzinsky's brains out, he then realized he couldn't leave with out pushing the button, so he unwillingly began the duties. It's also intersting that Kelvin didn't have his name on his suit, like all official Dharma members.

4: (Regarding Charlie) I think that Desmond naming his baby Charlie is a little less than odd, I mean yeah he was close to Charlie, but he was close to Kelvin too. So in both of their deaths, Kelvin was murdered and Charlie died. So Kelvin may have been a little more appropriate. Des Jr. Too.

5: The compass is one of the items that Richard shows Locke a few years later.

6: (Regarding #3) Maybe when Kelvin realized the button had to be pushed, the electriomagnetism grabbed Eko's drug plane from the sky, The exact same scenario that Desmond went through.

#170. Posted by: G-Man at January 29, 2009 8:22 PM

Okay, haven't had time to re-review the epi in detail yet, but a few quick thoughts (and yes, I have read all posts to date, so there will not be another ... gotcha davidrh! :)) ...

@99/Caelum: Thank you! EXCELLENT POST! Following the wiki links you started with also lead me to this:

Wonderful reading if you have the time ... but just click on this, and then search for "swan" ...

Yes, "the Swan device" is the basis for almost all two-stage nukes (i.e., H-bombs) developed to date ... hmm. Combined with the theories about Jughead being buried in concrete deep with the Swan hatch ... coincidence? Uh, don't think so ...

Whomever said it ... sorry about lack of ref ... regarding Latin being used by the Others since it was it common use way back when ... well, don't buy it. Why? Because languages evolve over time ... most modern languages bear little resemblance to their precursors from beyond the same time period ... Latin has remained, us such, only because it is a "dead" language, kept "alive" ony within academia. If in common use by practitioners for over 2k years on the island, it would surely have evolved into something Juliet could not possibly recognize. Therefore, they speak in Latin only as "code" when others (to the Others) are around, not because it has been carried down through the ages. Also, the don't speak in Latin all the time, because (from a TV production point of view), we wouldn't understand what the hell they are saying (aside from making things easier on the writing staff) ... this is NOT a Mel Gibson production!

Re Daniel's mom being "Eloise Hawking" ... when Daniel was shouting to Des right before the "voom," he said something to the extent that "her name is 'schwa'..." Not much to go by, but it IS distinctly there ... a nondescript vowel sound beginning her name ... seems to work well with the "Eloise" theory.

Finally, the thing that bothered me most about this epi ...

As of the last "voom" in "The Lie," were not the frosties still after the third skip, when Locke once again saw the smoke coming from the drug plane? Something is VERY wrong with this! Either the drug plane somehow traveled back in time to 1954 upon crashing (how?), or there was another unseen "voom" between the end of "The Lie" and the beginning of "Jughead" ... if so, then that's just dirty pool on the part of the production staff! Still irritated by that seeming lack of consistency ...

#171. Posted by: ealgumby at January 29, 2009 8:33 PM

Pretty close, ealgumby. I was warming up those "A" and "H" keys . . .

BTW: Anybody else getting tired of seeing that bloated belly every time you log in? . . .

#172. Posted by: davidrh at January 29, 2009 8:39 PM

Here's my top ten list of thoughts:

1. Young Charles Widmore has a name tag "Jones" on his suit. I'm guessing they took that off of the Army soldiers they killed. It could be to help them infiltrate other US units that they are expecting to come, much like Ethan was sent to infiltrate the Losties.

2. Desmond's and Penny's son is defintely named after rock-band Charlie. Papa Widmore is always "Charles," not "Charlie."

3. There was another group that came to the island. So far we have the Others, we have the US Army, we have the Dharma Initiative... But we also have Rousseau's group. I look forward to seeing a younger Rousseau in all of this time-travel, and seeing other members of her group, and discovering what linkages they have with certain Losties and other groups.

4. There was a little confusion when the bomb element was introduced, and I'll try to clear some of that up: the Jughead was NOT what they drilled into at the opening of the season. The timeline has the Army vs. the Others and a left-behind bomb. The Others bury the bomb. Years later, the Dharma Initiative finds the cavern where the wheel is. The wheel is what Ben turns later to move the island through time. Look to see if the wheel is linked to the pirate ship in the middle of the island at some point, and if Alpert can be linked to that ship. The bomb is somewhere else, not near the cavern, but may be related to the button-pushing situation Desmond found himself caught up in.

5. For American-only tests, Crossroads Able, a 23-kiloton air-deployed nuclear weapon was detonated on 1 July 1946. Check out the wiki for Operation_Crossroads if you want os me trivia on that part of the history.

6. Alpert's mention of finding special people when they are children may also be meant to have a similar connotation of how the Tibetan monks select their new spiritual leader to be the Dalai Lama.

7. Desmond and Ginger have been sporting nosebleeds when time traveling. We also have the hint that Ginger may have been born on the island. Is there a reason that people who have been on the island longer (Desmond) or even born there (Ginger) are developing the nosebleeds? Are the Losties from the plane special, in that they can handle the travel better? What about the Ghost Whisperer, then? No nosebleeds on him yet, nor on Daniel.

8. When Sojer Girl says 'You just couldn't stay away, could you,' that could just be her speaking in general terms about their Army opposition. We'll have to wait for more clues/flashbacks to see if she has an earlier meeting with Daniel. Inconclusive.

9. Okay, here's part of the relativistic rules of time travel that can be hard to grasp, but I will try to explain here why Desmond couldn't 'remember' Daniel's warning until three years after he got off the island. It's a little easier for us to understand, since we have an outside viewpoint. Daniel delivers a message to Daniel 'then.' However, up until that point in the common timestream, it hadn't happened. The warning message is something new that is injected into the timeline. The memory cannot be present in Desmond's memory retroactively. Desmond remembers the 'then' warning when it happens relative to his own personal perception.

This is the part that gets tricky: relative to Desmond's perspective, Desmond could not remember the warning because it originally did not happen in the "untouched" timeline. The timeline was "untouched" (as far as this particular detail goes) until AFTER the Losties became unhinged and started skipping through time. So although the 'then' warning has now happened, and becomes part of Desmond's memory, it cannot retroactively be part of Desmond's memory, because all of the incidents in the original timeline need to transpire first (including the non-warning of Desmond's original life journey) before Daniel was able to interject his warning into the timestream. That's about as clear as I can make it without breaking out Einstein's actual equations for special relativity (not his equation on general relativity).

This is what Daniel means when he says that Sawyer cannot change the past. If it didn't happen, they can't make it happen. While Desmond is the exception to the rule, there are still rules that govern his exception. Daniel's warning cannot "undo" the boat explosion, or Charlie's death, or anything like that. However, because of Desmond's exception, Daniel can make changes that will affect the future timeline that happens after they started skipping through time, relative to Daniel's perceptions.

This brings up all kinds of the traditional conditions, where people think that since you have to have the "original" timeline stuff happen first, and you can't retroactive inject anything, then you really haven't changed your original timeline at all, you've just created a new, divergent branch, and there are two timelines now, the original one, and the one you just changed by interjecting something into the stream. That makes things harder to follow on television, so they may not get into that part, and try to insist that everything is still happening up and down one 'time-street,' and not allow for any divergent branches.

10. Sayid appears to have had a falling-out with Ben, so I don't think he will be killing anyone for Ben anytime soon. Still trying to figure out if the dart-guys were trying to recapture Sayid for Ben, or for Widmore.

#173. Posted by: tpull at January 29, 2009 8:42 PM

REALLY weird thought ...

Anyone remember how in Star Trek IV, Scottie gives the secret of transparent aluminum to some engineer, and then comments, "How do we know he wasn't the one to invent it?!"

By all accounts, the development of the two-stage nuke went through a similar "huh?" moment when Teller-Ulam came up with the idea of "radiation implosion/radiation pressure." Perhaps Daniel went yet further back in time, and related this little tidbit to them ... changing the world forever? Totally non-sequitor, and unrelated to Lost per se ... but what if?

#174. Posted by: ealgumby at January 29, 2009 8:51 PM

@172/tpull #9: I understand what you are saying, except ... for the three year transition between Dan talking to Des and when Des realizes it ... there has NOT been three years of skipping on the island up to that point ... otherwise I agree with you. Come up with a valid explanation of how the island skippers can have traveled through time about 24 hours (est?), and this translates into three years off-island, and I'll believe you.

Until then ... a hole in the Lost plotline, IMO.

#175. Posted by: ealgumby at January 29, 2009 9:10 PM

Re the idea of US nuke tests on a place like "the island" ...

would've NEVER happened! Atolls were chosen for very specific reasons. Originally, to observe the effects of a nuke blast upon surrounding naval vessels, anchored near the blast site. Later, to observe the timing of the nuclear blast ... easily accomodated by long "light pipes" from the blast site to a data collection bunker nearby. This would NEVER be done in "the Island" with its peaks and valleys. Therefore, the tower shown in the show holding the bomb would've never been built. Production error, or ...?

#176. Posted by: ealgumby at January 29, 2009 9:56 PM

something that's been bothering me...even though Desmond had a solid bond with Charlie, why would Penny allow her son to be named that? Wouldn't she want any name but that? If she in fact has that much anger towards her father, would she name her first child Charlie while hiding from her father Charles? It just seems a little odd to me. I haven't sensed anything strange about Penny until this episode. Yes, they portray a very strong love between Des and Penny, but when Des said he was done with it, she kind of pushed him towards going to LA.
*I have trouble focusing too much on the time travel, sci-fi stuff, so have to look for other things to keep me going*

#177. Posted by: Steve at January 29, 2009 10:00 PM

oh...and another thing...Widmore says to Desmond: 'Deliver your message'

How does Widmore know what the message is or that there even is a message? The only person other than Desmond to know the message is Penny and Faraday.

#178. Posted by: Steve at January 29, 2009 10:11 PM

@174/ealgumby: I think you're right. The flipping there is not relative, it's the producers/writers moving us forward to view things. Unless they explain it away as a 'submerged' memory that took a long time to resurface, I can't find a way out for them. If they wanted to stick close to relativistic physics, he should have remembered the dream a few days after their boat first rescued the Oceanic 6. I know dreams can be weird and unpredictable, but three years does seem completely random (or completely driven by their needs for the plot).

@175: Maybe in this history, the Army was looking to do a different type of test? And they never got to carry it out because of this, and maybe there's a big flaw in some weapons design somewhere because they never tested for a certain effect, and it's something relevant to the effect it might have/had on the island.

#179. Posted by: tpull at January 29, 2009 10:26 PM

Yes, that "remote Asian coastal village" is actually the Philippines. The kids at the beach said something like "Laro tayo", which means "let's play". And a shot at the pier showed the Philippine Flag, as well as a big "MABUHAY" sign alongside it.

#180. Posted by: jones at January 29, 2009 11:22 PM


A possible explaination for this is the theory that for time travelers the experience seems instantaniouis but for those left behind it is alot longer.

I really like the theory that Desmond turning the failsafe caused jughead to blow.

Just rewatched the epi and some thing is bothering me. Almost everybody except Richard is wearing army duds. Widmore's jacket says Jones so alot of us concluded that they must have taken the clothes from the people that were killied, but when he gets back to the camp and speeks about his friend he calls him Cunningham which IS the name on that person's uniform...What's up with that???

I also believe that veything that we have seen since season one at the we believed was in real time has already happened in time...That is why Hawking, Ben, Alpert Widmore, etc.. know things. That is why Ben accused Widmore of changing the rules.

Ben's daughter didn't die the first time around and now she's dead....Oh yeah, and Ben is really pissed about it.

That's all for now

#181. Posted by: prosecutor67 at January 29, 2009 11:25 PM

I didn't have time to read all the posts to see if someone answered your question, but the reason why the episode was called Jughead is because that was the name on the side of the bomb. Thanks for the review!

#182. Posted by: nowepformd at January 29, 2009 11:51 PM

@134 Skipper - Thank you for clarifying the Hugo/army/Aussie dude timeline connections re the numbers. I originally thought they were WWII vets ( which makes more sense to me).
So, Skipper... Who was your favorite - Ginger or MaryAnn? Which opens the question, who will me our Gilligan? (I vote for Faraday -- no wait, he should be the professor.
Open for comments...

#183. Posted by: BunnyLover at January 30, 2009 12:12 AM

Perhaps Richard stole Gingers makeup bag? OMG! And I dream of jeanny is really Jacob ?? ( the jin?). We could go on and on here folks ,,

#184. Posted by: BunnyLover at January 30, 2009 12:28 AM

@181/nowepformd: wait for it ... wait for it ... now! davidrh, feel free to AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

@182/BunnyLover: Oh, Gilligan is CLEARLY Hurley! He may be off the island "now" but his spirit lives on! As for the others (wink wink) I vote:

the Howells = Bernard/Rose (just too much conflict up front for Jin/Sun)
Ginger = Shannon (or Nikki ... whatever, they're both dead now!)
Mary Ann = Kate (or maybe Claire, but since she's dead too ... or maybe a thanatoid ... who cares?)
Professor = Locke (Daniel just doesn't make things happen like ol' Roy Hinkley did, does he?)
Skipper = (hate to say it) Jack ... although I can't see him saying to Hurley "come on little buddy, I know you can do it!" The "better" skipper for that would've been Charlie ... but of course, he could've been Gilligan too!

#185. Posted by: ealgumby at January 30, 2009 12:46 AM

@178/tpull: Agree with what you said ... for whatever that's worth!

#186. Posted by: ealgumby at January 30, 2009 1:00 AM

@180/prosecutor67: "A possible explaination for this is the theory that for time travelers the experience seems instantaniouis but for those left behind it is alot longer."

I disagree with what you said ... and not just because I'm as drunk as you (sp?), but because there is no basis for such a thought. I HAVE to believe D&C when they say there is a "scientific" basis for all of this, whether proven science or not. What you are suggesting is outside that realm.

#187. Posted by: ealgumby at January 30, 2009 1:11 AM

Great comments, everybody. Here's my thoughts.

1) It takes a lot more than 70 hours to sail from London to L.A. Therefore, Penny & Des are not yet up to the "now" of Ben & the O6. But how far back they are, we can't say.

2) Faraday doesn't have a british accent and Hawking does. Besides, the writers introduce new characters every season - if not Faraday's mom, then who? And if she knows so much about time, how come he had to work so hard on his research?

3) Richard must have two compasses at some point, like the rabbits, and he keeps them from touching... OR Richard destroyed John's compass after 1954 or 1966 but picked up the "original" (newer) one until 2007.

4) Now that we know Richard's visit to Locke was an accident, it means John isn't special, which means Ben was just playing him all along. (Remember Ben's eye roll when John asked if the magic box was in the orchid?) This confirms what all John's flashback stories have always told us about him - that John Locke is a giant tool! The only question is why Jacob/Christian seems to favor John, and the answer is because Jacob/Christian needed John to do some things for them and (remember the central thesis here) JOHN LOCKE IS A GIANT TOOL!

5) I like the medusa spiders in the box theory. (See point #4.) I also like the "two John's" theory - but not in an infinite loop. See the point on the compasses.

6) If Jughead is what causes all pregnancies to terminate, what makes male sperm count so incredibly high? For that matter, is there any explanation for the fact that so many more women than men on the island seem to die? (Not counting the socks; just named characters.)

7) According to the show, the timeline *can* be changed, but only temporarily - only certain details. Desmond saved Charlie three times, but not for good. Now imagine - If Locke *had* killed Widmore, what kind of enormous "course correction" would the universe have had to pull off to make the next 60 years work out relatively the same way? I think a catastrophe of that magnitude is what Ben & Hawking are trying to avoid.

8) Timeline paradoxes are actually the result of lazy writing. Lindelof & Cuse are da (Jughead sized) bomb for keeping everything so consistent. Lost is still the most amazingly well written show on TV. So here's to much more excitement...

#188. Posted by: Bill at January 30, 2009 1:14 AM

Couple questions...
1) If Daniel's mom is the oracle why doesn't he understand/know more about time travel?
2) Does Charles even know that Desmond was on that island...I mean for all he knows he was just awol for a few years...yeah Desmond was on his boat but the communications were out...and then it blew up...and Desmond came back secretively...

The only catch is that Penny knew where Desmond was and I always thought it was odd that Desmond ended up there on a sailing contestfunded by Widmore...was that on purpose?

3) Does anyone else think it is possible that Charles got tricked into moving the island? I think that explains how he was there but can't make his way back...did he get appointed leader at some point and the others replaced him w/ Ben?

#189. Posted by: Shana Roberson at January 30, 2009 1:31 AM

@ 182. Posted by: BunnyLover

Ginger was my fav. Anyone who packs that many evening gowns for a three hour tour has psychic foresight... or is time traveling...either one. Then again, the Howell's packed every last diamond they owned for a 3-hour boat ride!

WWGD - what would Ginger do?

#190. Posted by: Skipper at January 30, 2009 1:54 AM


(1) agreed
(2) re why no Brit accent ... uh, he wasn't raised there? re why Ms. H. doesn't give Dan more input on how this all works ... uh, maybe she doesn't know? Especially if she IS Ellie ... maybe she knows it's possible, but has NO clue how!
(3) Why TF does he NEED two compasses?! Too much has been made of this, IMO. E.g., the "original" compass comes from pre-1954, and is owned by someone other than RA. Post 1954, this other person gives the compass to RA. Circa 2004, RA gives the compass to Locke. Via "voom" into 1954, Locke "returns" the compass to RA, but it's still old (i.e., older than 1954, and hence still on timeline). Because things cannot "change" along the timeline, RA never receives the compass from his pre-1954 compass donator ... hence a "course correction" to make things "right" again ... no problem!
(4) Why do you say RA's visit to Locke as a child was an "accident?" It seems just the opposite, given that Locke gave him the date/time/place of his delivery!
(5) WTH do mean by "See the point on the compasses?" ???? Yet another ????? Wha???? If you haven't already, check out my link at: ... uh, what?
(6) Male sperm count? Maybe I missed that, and very possibly I did ... care to elaborate? Are you suggesting there's some mysogynist thread in the show?
(7) Yes, we understand the concept of "course correction," and how it might actually work within the world of physics. So how does something outside of that realm fit in? Just asking ...
(8) Yes, I understand ... but feel the need for something beyond "lazy writing" to explain things. If that were the case, we'd all be watching "Fringe" instead! Oops to those who are ... but that show is dumb as ... to take a hint from old Monty Python ... "What's brown and sounds like a bell?"

#191. Posted by: ealgumby at January 30, 2009 2:09 AM

Pulling an all-nighter for work & need a break...

Cecil, excellent job pinch-hitting for mac! Thoroughly enjoyed your review, especially the coinage of "Frosties" & the following lines:

"Escaped other says "No way. Their leader's a sodding old man. You think he could track me?"...The sodding old man eyes the camp from cover..." : ) : ) : )

Apologies in advance that I've forgotten most of the names of the posters who submitted various ideas, but it's been great to see all the regulars as well as new posters.

Re the compass, Richard Eyeliner, & Locke: I agree w/Cecil's description of the compass-passing loop: Richard gave the compass to Locke under the Beechcraft, in an undetermined time (whenever the Beechcraft crashed). Because of Locke's visit to him in 1954, Richard knows that he will not recognize Locke at some point in time & gives him the compass. When Locke time-travels back to 1954, he gives the compass back to Richard, who then has it to show to Locke when he visits Locke as a boy (roughly mid-1960s, if I'm calculating dates correctly). Locke does not choose the compass & Richard takes his artifacts & leaves in a huff, but thereby retains the compass to give to Locke under the Beechcraft, in an undetermined time. Where & when the compass enters the loop is a mystery to me.

Re Richard meeting Locke: It seems that Richard was tipped off to Locke's (at the time future) existence by Locke himself. Richard seemed incredulous about Locke's statements, but as Locke provided Richard w/his (Locke's) birthdate & birthplace, Richard was able to visit Locke at his birth & confirm his existence. From Richard's visit to Locke in the mid-1960s, it seems that Richard kept track of Locke after Locke's birth...for how long I don't know.

Re Charles Widmore showing up as "Jones": Aside from the obvious (that he was determined to get his own way even then by any means possible) , the name "Jones" on his uniform is puzzling. As another poster pointed out, Cunningham is really Cunningham, so why doesn't Widmore's uniform say Widmore? Is Charles supposed to be incognito & Richard had had enough of his insubordination & outs him? Does Richard toss Charles off the island because of Charles's inability to follow orders?

Re the uniforms: Not that I'm an expert in U.S. Army uniforms, but it seems to me that it's more likely that the uniforms were made for Richard's private army. Why Richard isn't in uniform is puzzling, though. An alternative idea is that Richard's private army is co-opted U.S. Army & the three dead bodies that were shot were troops who didn't want to go along w/the co-opting, which would explain why Richard isn't in uniform. However, the accents of the troops we've heard speak (Widmore, Ellie) aren't American, which would argue against them being U.S. Army. Overall, I think the private army idea is more likely to be correct.

Re Daniel & Charlotte: It seems to me that he does love her, & not just in a sibling-like way, & vice versa. Why he's not leveling w/her about her nosebleeds & loss of memory I'm not sure.

Re Widmore, Daniel, Mrs. Hawking, Eloise (the person, not the rat), Ellie, Penny, etc.,'s potential family relationships: I dunno. It seems to me to be a stretch to say they're all related. As someone mentioned, why does Daniel have a different last name than either Mrs. Hawking & Charles if he's their son? (I suppose that "Hawking" could be a name from a second marriage—or that she & Charles were never married at all—& Faraday was her birth name.) Why does Daniel have an American accent? Was he given to someone else to raise? Why is an American a don at Oxford? How much money did Widmore give to the university to get Daniel employment there?

Let's assume, though, that Charles Widmore & Eloise "Ellie" Faraday Hawking are Daniel's parents. They were both on the island & had a falling-out somewhere along the way, perhaps due to a disagreement over who was supposed to "own" the island. Mrs. Hawking appears to favor Ben (unless she's a double agent for Charles). Charles's having Mrs. Hawking's current address in LA in his address book indicates that they're still in touch, perhaps only out of concern for their son Daniel. Daniel obviously knows who his mother is (or who he thinks she is), as he sent Desmond to visit his mother, but is not aware of her current location in LA.

One interesting parallel that would be set up by this family scenario is that Daniel & Penny would be half-siblings w/a common father & unaware of this fact, just like Jack & Claire.

Re the high sperm counts of males on the island: If I remember correctly, Juliet tells this fact to Sun when Sun tells her (Juliet) that she (Sun) is pregnant & thinks it's not Jin's child because of the doctor telling her (Sun) that his sperm count is too low to conceive a child. As far as a misogynist bent, I'm too tired to go back & count, but I do think more female characters have bitten the dust than have male, & there were fewer female characters to begin w/. Whether or not that indicates a misogynist bent or not is debatable; it could just be something dictated by the storylines being developed by TPTB.

Random observations:

Juliet knows a lot more than she's ever told.

The whole Others-speak-Latin thing is pretty dumb.

Next week's episode, "The Little Prince," most likely refers to Aaron.


#192. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at January 30, 2009 4:32 AM

Leaving town this morning for a concert engagement, so let me leave one of these for ANYONE to use at the appropriate time:


Have a great weekend. Next week.

#193. Posted by: davidrh at January 30, 2009 6:58 AM


There is a reference for it in science, even Einstein delt with it, it's called time dilatation. Here's en exert from Wikipedia.

Time dilation is the phenomenon whereby an observer finds that another's clock, which is physically identical to their own, is ticking at a slower rate as measured by their own clock. This is often interpreted as time "slowing down" for the other clock, but that is only true in the context of the observer's frame of reference.

Locally (i.e., from the perspective of any observer within the same frame of reference, without reference to another frame of reference), time always passes at the same rate. The time dilation phenomenon applies to any process that manifests change over time.

Time dilation would make it possible for passengers in a fast-moving vehicle to travel further into the future while ageing very little, in that their great speed slows down the rate of passage of on-board time. That is, the ship's clock (and according to relativity, any human travelling with it) shows less elapsed time than the clocks of observers on Earth. For sufficiently high speeds the effect is dramatic.

For example, one year of travel might correspond to ten years at home. Indeed, a constant 1 g acceleration would permit humans to travel as far as light has been able to travel since the big bang (some 13.7 billion light years) in one human lifetime. The space travellers could return to Earth billions of years in the future. A scenario based on this idea was presented in the novel Planet of the Apes by Pierre Boulle.

Now imagine if we apply this to time trevel: the difference in perspective could get big really soon for the people at the original point of reference ie: the 06.

#194. Posted by: prosecutor67 at January 30, 2009 7:05 AM

haven't finished reading all the posts yet but I wanted to comment on the "women screaming in child birth" comments. I had two habies, both natural childbirth. The second was with low forceps...and let me tell you folks IT BLOODY HURT! Not labor pain hurt; hurt like someone stuck a pair of huge tongs through my cervix and dragged a baby out of me.yeah, that kind of hurt. I didn't scream because it isn't in my repetoire & it would have been unseemly, however my hips involuntarily rose up from the gurney in an attempt to get away from the source of pain.

#195. Posted by: undaunted at January 30, 2009 8:14 AM

Sorry davidrh, I didn't realize I was repeating it that many times.

@ jabber_wok - #23
I always thought "Expose" was a significant episode and not a filler. The majority of individuals seem to think it was just a filler. When the episode came on, I didn't think it was significant because of the medusa spiders, I thought Paulikki would come back into the storyline somehow. I also thought the diamonds would have some significance. Maybe it all does.

Maybe someone came every now and then to check on John, inject the spider venom in him again, and give him something to eat/drink. Maybe that's why Ben gave him to that lady at the meat place. Maybe she was supposed to "watch over him" in the sense of taking care of him rather than make sure he doesn't get kidnapped.


It seems like everything is going in circles.

Really, thinking about this time traveling stuff makes my head spin.

So all of these events aren't necessarily "changing" the future because it all already happened? So yeah, it's all pretty much going in circles.

I know someone probably already said this but that would explain why Desmond didn't remember his memory till 3 years later when he "should have" technically remembered the memory 3 years ago. -- because it was always a memory, and he just now remembered it.

Yeah, now I'm confusing myself.

I'll be back. =]

#196. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at January 30, 2009 8:29 AM

So why isn't RA the leader of the Others/Hostiles?

Why does he have to recruit people like Ben/Locke/and possibly Widmore???

#197. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at January 30, 2009 8:57 AM

I can't remember -- Do we know who Penny's mom is? Is there a Mrs. Widmore?

#198. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at January 30, 2009 8:58 AM

@176 Steve (or is it Scott?) contemplated:

>something that's been bothering me...even though Desmond had a solid bond with Charlie, why would Penny allow her son to be named that? Wouldn't she want any name but that? If she in fact has that much anger towards her father, would she name her first child Charlie while hiding from her father Charles?

But remember Penny spoke briefly with Charie on the hatch radio, he was the one that gave her hope that Desmmond was still alive, and had a lot to do with bringing them back together, sacrificing himself in so doing. So she might have a lot of affection for Charlie. Maybe they even named the kid "Charlie" rather than "Charles" to emphasize it wasn't for her father,

#199. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 30, 2009 9:24 AM

@180 prosecutor67 said:

>I really like the theory that Desmond turning the failsafe caused jughead to blow.

Except that the hatch-blow seemed pretty clearly to be an implosion rather than an explosion and left a pit a few tens of meters across, whereas the crater of a Jughead class weapon would bo 1000-2000 meters across, the blast/heat effects extending for several tens of kilometers beyond that, and we missed the part where everyone dies of radiation poisoning from the fallout.

#200. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 30, 2009 9:30 AM

#187 Bill speculated

>3) Richard must have two compasses at some point, like the rabbits, and he keeps them from touching... OR Richard destroyed John's compass after 1954 or 1966 but picked up the "original" (newer) one until 2007.

The way I understand it, there was no compass until Locke FOOM!ed into 1954, carrying it, and giving it to Richard Alpert.

Richard kept it, showed it to 8 year old Locke in 1964 (or thereabouts), still kept it, had it on him when he patched up Locke's leg from the bullet wound somewhere around 2000 (remember, I believe this was around the time of the drug plane crash).

Richard gave the compass to Locke there in 2000. Locke carried it back to 1954.

From the point of view of a non-time-travelling observer, the compass, which had not previously existed, FOOM!ed out of nowhere in 1954 and FOOM'ed back to nowhere in 2000.

#201. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 30, 2009 9:49 AM

I lean toward Christmas Island as the prototype for the island because it was the place where British and American forces overlapped during the late 1950s.

Trying to merge real and story time lines:
Egyptian hieroglyphs were used from 3300 BC to 400 AD (then died out).
Polynesian-Hawaiian-Islanders nomadically moved around Pacific Islands from 400AD to the present.
Latin, as the international language, fades away to the realm of church rituals and scholars by the 17th century (today it is called a "dead language.")
Cook found an uninhabited Christmas Island on 12-24-1777.
***Black Rock's last voyage was in 1845, which may have carried convicts from Britain to Australia.***
First settlement in 1883 for coconut palm plantation ended when trees died out in 1902. Island was abandoned.
A french priest leased the island to create coconut palm plantation from 1917-1939.
In WWII, the island was used as staging, communication station.
*** In 1954, RA group killed U.S. soldiers at h-bomb site. * * *
From February, 1956 to 1964, U.S. and Britain used the island for h-bomb testing.
In 1975, testing found no high levels of radiation, meaning that the people could live on the island.
*** Dharma comes to the island in late 1970s. * * *
*** Widmore begins searching for island in 1984 (after some event?) * * *
*** Ben's Purge of Dharma occurs on 12-19-1992.

So "who's island" is it?
Prior to WWII, was it an abandoned place?
In 1954, Alpert and Widmore's group claim it around the same time as the military.
In 1970s, Dharma claims it.
In 1992, Ben claims the island with the Others (who are probably not part of Alpert's original group)

#202. Posted by: welh at January 30, 2009 10:07 AM

Am I the only one that was under the impression that Widmore was behind the Dharma Initiative until this episode? For me that was the biggest revelation.

#203. Posted by: Daniel Gendron at January 30, 2009 10:19 AM

Here's a theory:

Richard's role is to FIND a leader not BE the leader, remember how he told Locke in the tent that they had a process for it and that it started at a young age.

Now I'm starting to wonder if the "loop" in time the show is covering is somehow related to this process.

Maybe Richard choices so far have failed (Widmore or Hawking and Ben for example) which brings on the need for "change"

Remember the conversation between Richard and Locke when they discuss the possibilty that HE may be the one they have been waiting for (wow...thinking about the process...waiting for the Messiah, his death and resurrection sure sounds alot like someone's life story and I don't mean Locke!)

Anyway, maybe in writing these lines I've stumbled onto something, who knows.

#204. Posted by: prosecutor67 at January 30, 2009 10:26 AM

My thoughts on the Desmond/Penny points:

1) This ep took place at LEAST 5-6 years in the future. It was at least 3 years after they left that Desmond woke up and had the memory. Charlie hadn't been born yet. Since Charlie was about 2 or 3-ish when Des arrives at Oxford, this episode must have taken place AFTER the O6 returned to the island. (Remember, they only had 70-ish hours to get back there, and that was the same time Charlie was born.)

2) Desmond didn't remember Daniel because, if he had, it would have changed history and time won't allow that. Desmond remembered Faraday at a point when it would continue the time stream rather than when it would create a paradox. What Des is doing now is what he's supposed to do now, but the impetus for that couldn't have appeared in his mind until it was time. THAT'S why he didn't remember.

3) I don't believe Penny is in danger when Des goes to LA since it would be 6 years in the future. Ben is in LA after just 3 years to get the O6 back to the island. If they made it back successfully at the 3 year mark, Ben may have either joined them or moved on so he may not still be there at the 6 year mark.

#205. Posted by: Paul at January 30, 2009 10:44 AM


Maybe RA is Jacob (ie Locke = Bentham). Ra can't have direct contact with himself, so he needs a "leader" to speak with Jacob/future RA.

#206. Posted by: jiggy at January 30, 2009 10:50 AM

prosecutor67, i like the way you think, defintely possible.

considering ben's "knack" for finding people, penny is definitely in danger if she goes to la. i'm sure ben knows wherever theres desmond, penny cant be far away. he definitely plans to avenge his daughter's death.

#207. Posted by: tiffani at January 30, 2009 11:08 AM

I think I mentioned this before but doesn't it seem odd that there's two characters on the show with such similar names--rocker Charlie and Charles Widmore?
For a show that puts so much care into naming their characters it seems this would have to be more than coincidence or accident.
Does anyone remember what we know about Charlie's family? He had a brother in Drive Shaft...but that's all I remember.

Plus if Faraday is related to Widmore somehow, I always felt he had a lot of physical resemblance to Charlie.
Any thoughts?

#208. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at January 30, 2009 11:16 AM

Apparently Locke is not that "Special" afterall. Last season when Richard welcomed Locke as the leader this wasn't due to Locke being special but due to the conversation they had. Locke said he is their leader. Richard seemed confused and then Locke tells him to visit him and then the second visit confirms to Richard that Locke is "the man" when he chooses those objects from the line-up. Richard storms out because he was shell shocked that this was true. I guess when Locke was there, explained he was their leader and had the compass and then dissapeared when the flash came, Richard knew something weird was up. Its kind of lame the writers chose this to be the way they explain Locke being "the chosen one".

Also what is the timeline with the island events and the LA events? If Locke is lying in a casket, is the Locke running around the island showing the events that lead up to him being dead? So is the whole Des storyline also out of synch? Nope because they showed that real time that Mrs. hawkins is in LA with Ben which is in real time with Jack and crew yet Danielle just gave Desmond that message which means they are all in synch so there are currently two John Lockes then. One Island and one dead casket. Sheesh I'm confused.
I did like how Penny asked Des why he's just remembering this memory and Des didn't know why. Neither do we. LOL.

I also guessed when blondie was with Danielle that she might have been his mom which is odd that he wouldn't have recognized her. Which means she may not have had him for another decade or two.

The whole Widmore thing makes sense. I think at the time he thought he was number #2 behind Richard, but once Locke dropped the news that he's the leader I think Richard may have pushed Widmore aside making him more angry and possibly trying to throw a coup which led to his eviction from the island.

So have you guessed yet if its the island moving or the people through time?
Even if the island was moving through time why did it disappear? Did it have some sort of moving mechanism?

Also wasn't the fear that if the clock countdown stopped that the world would explode but it didn't? Maybe they thought the H-Bomb would be detonated but Des had the failsafe key.

Which brings me back to the Charlie son thing. Why name your son after Charlie when your hated father-in-law is also named Charles?

I did like the NAMASTE painting in Charles office. I think it shows that he was around for a bit into the Dharma days and may have joined forces with them leaving the "others"

This episode rocked. I'm getting tired of the Jack and Kate characters. It was refreshing seeing these guys.

#209. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at January 30, 2009 11:32 AM

@206 jiggy said "Maybe RA is Jacob (ie Locke = Bentham). Ra can't have direct contact with himself, so he needs a "leader" to speak with Jacob/future RA."

Wow... that made my eyebrows raise. I think you may have something there. Oh, and my nose started bleeding again, so there must be something to it.

To Skipper and ealgumby - Thanks for playing the "Gilligan's Island" game!

WGNABB (but this time it means "We're gonna need a bigger BOMB.) Wow - a reusable acronym... nice...

#210. Posted by: BunnyLover at January 30, 2009 11:56 AM

I forgot to add: Daniel running off to America seems like he's trying to undo what he did to Theresa. He probably loved her and wants to stop the time jumping. Not the kind of guy that sis thinks he is, but then again he's in cahoots with Widmore...

#211. Posted by: EthansGirl at January 30, 2009 12:13 PM

BTW: Anybody else getting tired of seeing that bloated belly every time you log in? . . .
→ 172. Posted by: davidrh


A belated thanks to Cecil for the review - and all of his insightful and thoughtful postings.

Eric and Alais
Sitting in a tree
Not as frequent posters
As they used to be.

#212. Posted by: lovelost at January 30, 2009 12:56 PM

Just finished reading all the comments from the last blog and this one, and my brain is so full of info I'm reeling! I am so impressed with the attention to detail and thoughtfulness here. Kudos to everyone!

And thanks, Cecil, for the fun recap and clueing me in on FDW. Though if it's a donkey wheel, then does that make Ben an a$$? Actually, I think Ben's an amazing character, though a total sociopath (hanging out calmly chewing cud (not that donkeys do that) while gassing his own dad).

A few points:

If I see another JWTB or EWDM (Ellie/Eloise was Daniel's Mom) I'm gonna shriek!

If Dr. Chang is indeed his real name and not another pseudonym, then I doubt Marvin is Jin or Sun's father, as Chang is a Chinese name, not Korean, and (as was mentioned earlier) the fathers of these two have been established. And Miles' name sounds suspiciously like a pseudonym, father, like son...?

I went back and watched scenes with Ellie/Sojer/Blondie and she does seem to have a British accent, which is in line with the Mrs. Hawking theories, but doesn't necessarily prove whose mom she is. She's British, Widmore's British, them hooking up is natch, RIGHT???

Speaking of Widmore, someone (sorry, too exhausted to look up who) mentioned they thought he was behind Darma. I seem to remember fake Darma ads with a tiny Widmore at the end and that this was also insinuated at some point in the first few seasons. Which goes right with the Ben/Widmore enmity as Ben demolished Darma. Charles: "Curses! I would have gotten away with it but for you meddling kids!"

On the uniforms, someone mentioned that the name patches on the side are inconsistent with Army uniforms of the period, and I think that's just a mistake by the costuming department. It's established they've jumped to 1954, and that the Army dudes were killed just under a month before, so the guns and uniforms should be Army issue from that date.

Richard having a "private army" doesn't match with Jughead's presence or the statement, "I'm assuming you came back to get your bomb," or Richard's assertion that he killed all the army guys. It seems plain(simple) to me the Others are wearing the dead army dudes' clothing--they LOVE playing dress-up and using false names. I think that saying "Cunningham" out loud is more subterfuge on their part, and that the saying of "Widmore" was a mistake or malice.

As far as timelines go, after reading all the theories, here's what I think: When people go to the past, those events have already happened and we see the effects of them in the future. As in, when Locke goes to the past, he tells Richard when he'll be born, and then later we see Richard go to see baby Locke. So Daniel had always already gone back and knocked on the hatch, triggering Desmond's memory. I think the fact that he remembers it three years later is weak writing and the whole "Desmond is the exception" is a crock. That's like saying, here's the Law of Gravity, which works this way, except...oh yeah, laws change inside of a black hole's event horizon...which we can never get to anyways...exept if there are white holes...ruh, roh..

Anyways, you all ROCK!

#213. Posted by: freckles at January 30, 2009 12:58 PM

How many more episodes before Sawyer kills someone to take their shoes? He's been running around the island Other style since he washed up on the beach.

#214. Posted by: PartyofSix at January 30, 2009 1:12 PM

ANDS? Anybody notice davidrh screaming?

#215. Posted by: hurling at January 30, 2009 1:14 PM


If Ben is an a$$ then what does that make ilovebenjaminlinusxx?

Actually there are Koreans name Chang. My wife has a Korean uncle named Chang. I still don't think this Dr. Chang is related to Jin or Sun though.

I thought it was well established that Widmore is THE man behind Dharma. This throught the ads you mentioned as well as the Lost Experience game. But also in details liek the Namaste on the painting in his office. He also told Ben last year that Ben had taken the island from him--referring to the purge of Dharma. I assume Widmore left the others on bad terms went out to the world, made his fortune, started Dharma and brought them to the island partly as a way of getting even with Richard.

I think the thing where Desmond remembers the dream three years after leaving the island is because the perceptions of time are different on island and off. Just like there was a time disparity between the freightor and the island, there is a disparity between the island and the mainland. For those left on the island, only a few days or housr has passed. On the mainland three years haas passed. When the 06 go back to the island, those left behind will be surprised to find that their former colleagues have all aged three years. To them the 06 only left days ago. I think.

#216. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at January 30, 2009 1:18 PM

1) Re: childbirth - I had enough energy to scream "get those effing ice chips away from me and give me an epidural!"

2) Re: mabuhay - it means more than hello, it's more like, Welcome (similar to Aloha in Hawaii). Definitely took place in the philippines.

3) I think the island is still in the same physical location, it was just rendered invisible again when the FDW moved it to another time (a time when the various Dharma stations kept it invisible and prevented sonar/telecommunication signals, etc., from reaching the island. It is always there you just need the exact coordinates to find it. (Maybe it's only visible when you are directly over it, which is why choppers can find it but not ships.)

#217. Posted by: Lost@work at January 30, 2009 1:29 PM

In the Darma orientation video Locke was watching at the Orchid, didn't Dr. Whatever-his-name-is-for-this-video say that the time travelling bunnies will "seem to dissapear" when they are displaced in time? Need to find that and re-watch. But, I assume that however that works is what made the island seem to dissapear to the O6.

#218. Posted by: PartyofSix at January 30, 2009 1:35 PM

Charlotte is the spitting image of the kid in that 80's movie Mask...this is not a compliment.

My mind is starting to hurt piecing the theories together and i LOVE IT!

Widemore Corp and Paik Industries built the facilities for the Dharma initiative right?(if i remember what the old hanso foundation websites used to say) So how did they do that and how did the US Army toss a bomb and troops at the island? Because it had not been moved in a very long time (if at all).

I think we will see Sun's dad in this 1950's Other troop with Widmore and i think at some point they helped people learn of the island's special properties and joined together to exploit the "unique properties" of the island, in the form of the Dharma Initiative. Otherwise how did their companies get the contracts to work on and send supplies to the island. At some point, probably when Ben culled the DI from the Island, Widmore and Paik were off the Island and it was Edgar Haliwax. He stopped the drilling in the Orchid because of the "unique properties", and left his parka behind when he went into that icy cavern to move the island, hence removing him along with Widmore and Paik in the process. Widmore never wanted to leave and is BS about it so he's trying to get back-similar to Jack who buried the desire in pills and booze, Widmore's drug is power and control, hence the search parties and assault teams.


#219. Posted by: CC_Boston at January 30, 2009 1:39 PM

What's up you all, everybody? It's so nice to be back here again! As always, your thoughts and insights into our favorite survivors, time travellers, Dharma workers, an Others are mind tingling.

Here's my dilemma:

As far as I could calculate, it has only been less than 2 days on “survivor island time” since the O6 left the island right? But, according to “O6 off island time” it has been at least 3 years (Des’ child, Aaron, and the fact that the newspaper from Tunisia was dated 2006 when Ben wound up in the desert are all clues…)….what gives there? I get that the donkey wheel turn caused the island to start jumping time, but have we been given any explanation as to why so much time has transpired off the island but only 2 days have off? Am I missing something? Was there an answer provided for this?

This may have been discussed earlier in the thread, but my head hurts from this stuff. If it's not beating a dead horse too much to explain it again, would one of you mind doing so?

#220. Posted by: Vikki at January 30, 2009 1:47 PM

Here's something to let sink in/think about. Not sure if it is relevant, but Michael Faraday's religious stance was Sandemanian (Glasite). The wikipedia entry for this religion shows an image of a Glasite church in Dundee, Scotland. It just so happens that the shape of the church is octagonal. Dharma symbols are also octagonal. Foudn it interesting and thought I'd point it out.

#221. Posted by: Paulo at January 30, 2009 1:48 PM

Does anyone have a recommendation for a Lost podcast? The Zune Marketplace lists a few dozen but didn't want to waste time figuring out which on to listen to.

#222. Posted by: Paulo at January 30, 2009 2:06 PM

RE: Blondie (who's name is Ellie)

When I first saw her, I thought it was Rousseau . . . Danielle (Ellie) Rousseau.

Did anybody else think that? It seems like that isn't the popular opinion, but that's just what I thought when I saw her with the rifle.

#223. Posted by: ANTP? at January 30, 2009 2:10 PM

→ 212. lovelost: Obviously Cindy's scarf is a poetic inspiration... ; > ; > ; >

→ 215. hurling: LOL...yet another acronym to add to our collection!

→ 217. Lost@work: Whenever I hear about epidurals I'm reminded of the scene in Mad About You, when Jamie's OB/GYN tells her that the window has passed for having an epidural, & Jamie's response is, "BREAK THE WINDOW!"

#224. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at January 30, 2009 2:13 PM

All Richard Alpert fans must check this out, listen for the comment about his eys:

#225. Posted by: SZ at January 30, 2009 2:24 PM

Seems as though Lost stars are showing up everywhere...

as pointed out earlier Walt was in a chicken nugget commerical during the last episode.

Shannon is the kidnapped daughter in the new film Taken. (She's whiney in the commericials just like she was on the show.

And now the best...

This morning on Today they had commercials for this week's 3D Chuck and who is playing a rock star??? Charlie!!! I will wet myself if he starts singing "You all, everybody." Oh, please let it happen!

#226. Posted by: lost2theworld at January 30, 2009 2:29 PM

@213 freckles mentioned:

>If I see another JWTB or EWDM (Ellie/Eloise was Daniel's Mom) I'm gonna shriek!

I've got to take responsibility for half of that. It's a reviewer's fate to spend most of the first two viewings of an episode looking down, and more listening to than actually watching the ep.

Add that to the problem that I have no TV or DVR near the computer I type on (not even on the same floor) and I have to do the entire review from my notes.

I just plain missed the name printed on the bomb and then closed the review wondering where the name came from, leading *lots* of helpful folks to tell me. Mea culpa, mea culpa,

#227. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 30, 2009 2:54 PM

@214 PartyofSix speculated:

>How many more episodes before Sawyer kills someone to take their shoes? He's been running around the island Other style since he washed up on the beach.

Sawyer/Locke already killed a couple of soldier-suited-others that were with the two they took prisoner. To my shame, I didn't look (did anyone?) to see if Sawyer took their boots.

And if he did, did they stay with him through the FOOM!?

#228. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 30, 2009 2:58 PM

@222 Paulo asked:

>Does anyone have a recommendation for a Lost podcast? The Zune Marketplace lists a few dozen but didn't want to waste time figuring out which on to listen to.

I can't claim to have surveyed them all but (besides the official ABC podcasts the two I have stayed with are:

Lostcasts: Besides the podcasts they offer a lot of value-added material on their website (links, etc). Probably the best all around:

And for the really /o/b/s/e/s/s/i/v/e/ devoted Lost fan, there's Lost Lowdown. Some of these run more than 12 hours long and are 100MB downloads:

These, and most other sites, offer archives so you can listen to the discussion of past eps as well. Hearing some of the now-obsolete theories is a kick (one guy is STILL holding out for two different groups of Others).

#229. Posted by: Cecil Rose at January 30, 2009 3:08 PM

Here are a few things I have been thinking about:

-I think RA's true time is where we have seen him now ('54) and he didn't time travel before meeting Locke (in '54). (It seemed pretty much that he didn't know about time travel until then)
After that, he discovered time travel (or someone else did) and he began doing everything he could to save his island before it was too late. Maybe he is not ageless; he was just younger when he did his time traveling. I think perhaps Juliette knows this also and that is why she said he was old.

-Maybe Ben tried to convince Sayid he needed to kill Penny and THAT is why he doesn't work for Ben anymore.

-I think Ellie & Widmore HATE each other. I can't see her willingly being with him if he talks to her the way he did.

-Maybe she is Daniel's Grandmother. I think she is pretty old to be his mom. Maybe he knew his mother would contact her if he needed help.

-Maybe women were sent off the island when they became pregnant,to prevent them from dying. That is why there is fewer women.

-Daniel was busy during the 3 hours he was missing (when he said he was lost on the way back to the beach). Did he fix the time elevator thing at the orchid (magic box?) and take a few more trips to the future?

-Did he build the time machine to begin with ?????????? So, he just had to fix what he had made earlier.

-About Sun, her picture of her daughter was very old, she said her daughter was with her grandmother & she implied she would do anything for her daughter (when she asked Kate if she would not do anything for Aaron). Has her daughter been kept from her and so is she now doing anything to get her back? (working for Widmore OR her dad?)

#230. Posted by: Lost Mom of Four at January 30, 2009 3:14 PM

@216 Crispy:
LOL, I think if Ben's an a$$, that makes iluveben a...donkey-lover!

About the Chang name, fair enough, it could be Korean, though I don't know any Korean Changs personally.

I like the idea of Dharma being Widmore's revenge on Richard. He comes across as nasty like that.

I dunno about the island/rest of world time disparity being THE explanation for Desmond's delayed memory. If you go with the supposition that the past has happened when it happened and is unchangeable, then it doesn't matter that the rest of the world is three years lagging after the 06 leave the island. The memory was created when Daniel knocked on the Hatch during the pre-Oceanic button pushing era and he should remember it from then on. His leapfrogging about in time does muddy the waters a bit, but it started when he turned the key, again, after Daniel knocked.

@227 Cecil: That's very nice of you to take part blame for the JWTB profusion! On your part, I haveta say that though the comments are a detailed and lengthy read, if people would even scroll back a little they'd see the question was answered in multiplicity!

@214 PartyofSix and @228 Cecel: Feet? Boots? Who's looking at Sawyer's feet when his shirt's off? Not me!

#231. Posted by: freckles at January 30, 2009 4:16 PM

@215: ANDS? Anybody notice davidrh screaming?

@216: If Ben is an a$$ then what does that make ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Ok, I almost snorted after these two.

@222: Paulo - "Does anyone have a recommendation for a Lost podcast?" - Try "Totally Lost". It's a pretty good parody/recap of the last episode. It's usually pretty short (8 mins?) and still someone insightful. Brought to you by Doc Jensen.

I just realized today as I was explaining to someone here in the office why Desmond remembered speaking to Daniel when he did and my explaining how both are still existing in the same time reference today even if they physically are existing at two points in time that the truth is that even that presumption is false. The actions of Daniel Farraday are occurring almost 3 years in the past so Desmond should have remembered only a few days after leaving, not "today" 3 years later. Boy was I annoyed to realize that. It blows away the one sense of...well, sense that I had made regarding the whole time travel thing.

Also, to the person who said Desmond was remembering things at a time before he and Penny had baby Charlie, that's incorrect, for the same reason I just mentioned. His remembering of the conversation is what is happening at the wrong point in time. So there aren't almost three more years to go before the Oceanic Six are supposed head back.

#232. Posted by: LostedIt at January 30, 2009 4:32 PM

Oh, BTW, regarding Desmond not remembering until that point, I guess I'm now going to have to go with the poster who said that he didn't remember because he wasn't supposed to remember until then. Just as Michael couldn't kill himself because the he wasn't supposed to die yet perhaps Desmond doesn't remember until that point because he's not supposed to instead of my original supposition that it yet hadn't happened in real time relative to today.

#233. Posted by: LostedIt at January 30, 2009 4:38 PM

@Paul - 205 - How do you know baby Charlie hadn't been born yet when Desmond had the dream/memory? I don't think that is a conclusion that can be decisively drawn.

The beginning of this episode shows Charlie's birth, and later in this same episode Charlie is 2-3ish years old, and I thought pretty obviously right at a point soon after Desmond's dream/memory.

The dream/memory occurs between the two events (birth of Charlie and Charlie at 2 or 3 years old), which fits in the time frame as the rest of the O6.

I like the idea that time advancing is different off island than on island, thus the O6 is 3 years in the future, but the Frosites are only a few days later since the O6 left.

The freighter time differential set all this up.

#234. Posted by: GFish at January 30, 2009 6:01 PM

Jughead was the name written on the side of the bomb. (This show has piqued my powers of observation.)

#235. Posted by: CC at January 30, 2009 7:13 PM

Did anyone else notice that when Ben Linus was a young boy and was visited by Richard on the island, Richard had long hair and looked totally unkempt. Then last episode Richard is wearing a clean set of clothes and is perfectly groomed. If we have to assume that RA has been on the island forever, could it be there are 2 versions of him? One "Pirate" or "Egyptian" Richard, and another Richard from modern/present day?

#236. Posted by: boozy at January 30, 2009 7:17 PM

for davidrh:

#237. Posted by: freckles at January 30, 2009 7:57 PM

ok...I watched the episode again and have read most of the entries...

1) Some weomen DO SCREAM during chidbirth. I was the LaMaze coach for my sister-in-law. During her first childbirth she screamed really loud and drew blood on me by digging her nails into my hand. She is asian and maybe it is an asian thing but I don't buy that. Some women scream...LOUDLY!!!!

2) The arrows seemed familiar. Previous eoisode??? I am thinking they went back in time, but didn't/couldn't see their previous selves.

3)Miles??? - I like him. I think he will be able to communicate with Jacob. I want more Miles stories.

4)Charlotte - hate her...hope she dies. She did look like the woman in the bed in the coma though. She also looked like woman in the pic in Faraday's lab that Des picks up.

5)I'm thinking Alpert and Faraday have a connection...don't know why...but I do.

6)Janitor says to tell others not to he has had other visitors...Who??

7)Think Penny knows what is going on....too eager to follow Des to LA.

Sawyer..."You told her"...when they disarmed Blondie and she asked if they were from the future too.

#238. Posted by: So_Lost at January 30, 2009 8:38 PM

I may have an answer for Widmore's "Jones" uniform: Jughead's full name in Archie comics was Forsythe Pendleton "Jughead" JONES the third.

With these writers, it could be that simple.

#239. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at January 30, 2009 8:53 PM

Surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but "jughead" and "jarhead" are common slang terms for marines.

#240. Posted by: ZenKimchi at January 30, 2009 8:57 PM

@200 Cecil

I agree that at first sight it's not reasonable, but maybe the island has something to do with it, somehow controling the explosion. We must not forget that the explosion knocked out a whole bunch of the DHARMA systems.

Maybe the island obsorbs the radiation somehow...who nows...apart from those pesky (and brillant) writers.

Radiation in controled doses can be a good more cancer Rose might be an example...

#241. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at January 30, 2009 9:11 PM

Hi everyone, sorry to say (not really) my life has become so busy I don't have time to blog incessantly anymore, but you are all still in my thoughts.

I must admit I haven't read most of the posts (a blog nono). So, my thoughts may be refreshing or redundant....the latter I am sure.

I am beginning to see how they are going to tie it all together and answer the questions. I am guessing that the bomb needs to be buried in concrete and that will tie into one of the hatches.

I am most intereted to see how Romeo and Juliet's bodies come to the caves.....and Ecko's brother. But, with the time travel thing I can see how most of this can be "scientifically" explained.

Although I am still obsessed as ever, but nicely distracted (yes, a man...:)) most of my family has stopped watching. ugh. what's wrong with them.

#242. Posted by: meg...the FIRST MIF at January 30, 2009 9:35 PM

Does anyone else expect a young, hot Rousseau to come bounding out of the jungle....with a chicken wing in her hands. They should do that!

And I'd love to see an Richard Alpert back story - love how they are tying it in, and I hope they do more tie-ins....

#243. Posted by: meg...the FIRST MIF at January 30, 2009 9:40 PM

→ 217. Lost@work: Whenever I hear about epidurals I'm reminded of the scene in Mad About You, when Jamie's OB/GYN tells her that the window has passed for having an epidural, & Jamie's response is, "BREAK THE WINDOW!"

→ 224. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at January 30, 2009 2:13 PM

Unrelated...but I've had some wine so I thought I'd add that I was given epidurals at 10 cm with both my kids. With enough cussing, screaming, and kicking they'll do anything to shut you up! Trust me!

#244. Posted by: meg...the FIRST MIF at January 30, 2009 9:46 PM

So sorry this is so long but I think it’s better not to break my train of thoughts. I’ve spent the day watching old episodes and thinking out loud leaves me with the following:

Miles said that Widmore has spent the last 20 years looking for the island. Since we now know that he was on the island in the 50's, it's not like he just found out about it. I thought maybe the journal had clues to a mysterious island and that was what started his obsession with finding it. Penny is certainly more than 20 years old so she must know more than she is saying about this island. We don't know where she was born either. I think Widmore got control or tried to take control of the island because he was also born and raised on the island. Why else, except for monetary greed, would anyone want to be there if they had a homeland to go back too unless they had a history like Kate or Sawyer. What was the island producing that would provide big money. He can't want to hide because he appears to be very important in society.

I can see where Richard and Widmore could not get along so Richard used Ben to regain control. According to Lostpedia, the incident happened in 1985, Dharma ended in 1987 and the purge occurred in 1992. So where is Chang now? That's a man with some answers!

Either Widmore caused the incident and was thrown off the island or the incident occurred when he was off the island and he couldn't find his way back. That adds up to 20 years of searching. The Others were still fighting Dharma when Ben arrived in 76. If Widmore was originally an Other when did he switch and become Dharma, if in fact he did. Who was in control between 1987 (when Dharma left) and 1992?

Charlotte was born in 1979 most likely to a Dharma family. Obviously the incident is causing the problems with the births of babies on the island. Chang had a child before the building of the Orchid in the 1970's presumably on the island.

Lostpedia has the SWAN being built in 1980. That's a long time for a leaking bomb to be sitting around.

Maybe Penny's mother is still on the island. I think Charlotte is Ben’s daughter because the only other connection with Dharma I can think would be if she is Horace’s daughter. There is a redhead in the classroom with Ben but Charlotte is not that old.

I'm looking at Desmond's memory more as a telepathic thought. If he and the O6 have been off the island for 3 years, I am assuming that the people on the island have been skipping for up to 3 years. Don't forget that we are assuming these skips are coming in order. Nothing in this show is in any kind of order. So if Daniel skips back in time, let's say to 2004, and talks to Desmond when he was still trapped in the hatch, maybe in the outside world it's really 2007 and Desmond is receiving this message telepathically, the event is just happening now. That's why he is just remembering it. It's not that he forgot it. Does that make sense?

Crispy Seaplanes commented on the writers using the Charlie/Charles name twice. They have done that before. Shannon dated a Brian and Susan married a Brian. Ana Lucia's mother was Theresa and Faraday's test subject was a Theresa. Kate's childhood sweetheart was Tom and there was Tom the other (Zeke).

As for Faraday's possible family tree regarding an Ellie, I found this on Lostpedia's timeline:

1938 Non-canon - M David Benson, founder of the Apollo Candy Company, was born to Nils and Ellie Benson
1941 Non-canon - Nils Christer Benson joined the US Marine Corps during WWII and was shipped overseas.
1944 Non-canon - Nils Christer Benson died on Omaha Beach during the Invasion of Normandy.
1962 Non-canon - The Apollo Candy Co was founded in San Francisco by M. David Benson ....

There's more on the candy company but I thought the Ellie name interesting.

I think whoever is keeping up the Lostpedia site should get an award when this is all over. That’s also ditto for Mac of course!

Please feel free to contradict my thoughts. I’ve got another year to piece it all together before the great reveal. If you can believe that will happen, I know of a bridge in Brooklyn……

#245. Posted by: pebspostal at January 30, 2009 10:07 PM

I've been reading this blog since last season, and just started posting this season. I guess the first 3 seasons, I just watched...and then I started thinking while i watched.
So anyway, I had a few episodes from season 1, and now have to go out and by the dvds because from the few I watched, I can't believe the amount of instances leading up to now. Knowing what I know now, is making the early episodes THAT much better.

#246. Posted by: Steve at January 31, 2009 12:19 AM

All the speculation that Jughead was buried under the Swan makes me think…

Maybe the hatch was related to the bomb… maybe it wasn’t… But whatever it was that happened when the hatch imploded-- why were the Others so nonchalant about the risk?

If the bomb was in the Swan, Alpert (at least) knew about it. Why did they not care that their island was being spared nuclear annihilation by the actions of random, unlucky travelers who unintentionally stumbled upon their shore?

Even if the bomb wasn’t in the Swan, did they not know that a missed button press would render the island visible to the outside world. (1st time it snagged flight 815 and the 2nd time it was picked up by Penny and Widmore). This, of course, has brought to the Others only pestilence, death and destruction. Why did they let the Losties have possession of the hatch and the botton pressing job?

Someone influential must have known that the island would NOT be burnt to a radioactive crisp during the future hatch implosion.

It makes me think about what else RA could have known…

He had learned about Lock in 1954. By 2000, when he pulled the bullet from Lock’s leg, he knew a great deal more…about Lock, about time travel… years before 815 ever fell.

It’s plausible that he learned all sorts of things about 815 and the passengers, maybe from interactions with time traveling Lock and friends that we haven’t seen yet, long before 2004.

Remember how the Others had uncanny amounts of information about each passenger? How some of the Losties seemed to be steered supernaturally to get on that plane? Maybe it was more intentional than we all thought. And it was all driven by Richard Alpert.

For instance could he have worked the system to get Jack, the spinal surgeon, on that plane… just when Ben needed one? (Remember how Ben was amazed that when he needed one, a spinal surgeon fell out of the air?) Although Ben is no dummy and knows about time travel, RA may have been the secret puppet master behind all these events.

And we all thought it was Patchy working a little Google magic. No, I think this is all orchestrated by mr eyeliner himself.

#247. Posted by: Frogurt at January 31, 2009 12:31 AM

71. Posted by: BEMH at January 29, 2009 11:01 AM re desmond's recovered memory

i've only got as far as this posting so forgive me if i am repeating a theory, but i think the reason desmond just remembered daniel's message is because daniel just went back in time and spoke to him at the hatch. in other words he couldn't remember it sooner because it hadn't happened in the past yet. i know daniel said that the "rules" are that you can't change the past, but ben did say that widmore changed the rules.

on another note, does charlotte's fading memory remind anyone else of sam beckett's swiss cheese memory on quantum leap??? or could it be because things are being changed in the past?

#248. Posted by: surefoot at January 31, 2009 1:02 AM

Re: the compass loop/the compass never being made.

So why did Richard recognise the compass (he did, didn't he?), if it wasn't his before Locke gave it to him in 1954?

Consider the following scenario:

-The compass is made at some point before 1954 and comes into the possession of Richard

-In some time travel event, taking place shortly before Locke and Richard meet in 1954 the compass travels to a future date, let's say January 1st 1970 for definiteness. But it's still in Richard's possession.

-Richard gives Locke the compass when tending his wound in 2004.

-The compass travels back with Locke to 1954, shortly after it disappeared for the first time. Locke gives it to Richard.

-Richard visits Locke as a child in 19something, but Locke does not choose the compass, so Richard takes it back with him.

-On December 31st 1969 in another time travel event the compass travels again, so that on January 1st 1970 there is still only one compass in Richard's posession. 'When' the compass travels to? Who knows?

Now, this is probably not what the writer's are going for I guess, but why would Richard recognise the compass, if it wasn't his before? Now that I think about it, I can't remember if we actually saw Richard recognise the compass, but to me that seemed the whole point of Richard giving Locke the compass in the first (or last?) place...

#249. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 31, 2009 2:20 AM

Sorry for the double post. Something went wrong there.

#250. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 31, 2009 2:21 AM

@#173.9 tpull, your theory about Desmond's memory sort of makes sense in itself, but what does it have to do with special relativity? Iirc special relativity preserves causality, so no time travelling there and so definitely no theories about what memories do when time travel is involved. And please, break out any equations you want, if you feel like it. I'm really curious as to what you meant.

#251. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 31, 2009 3:29 AM

@#174 & #179: Time on and off the island doesn't move at the same rate, does it? Didn't we find that out last season? How long were the O6 missing in the outside world? And how compares that to their time on the island before leaving in the helicopter?

#252. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 31, 2009 3:34 AM

Skipper and others have posted baout this -
I think that Faraday is in his mid 30s because the girl he left behind (Theresa?) seems to be that age and they were obviously a couple before he left her -

I am confused. Not an unusual state for me. Didn't Des ask for Faraday's mother's address? When He asks at the door, doesn't the door answerer say that she is in the next room? Just The two of them there? I assume I missed this. The woman in the bed with a nurse IS not or is not POSING to be Faraday's mother? I thought she was supposed to be his mom so anyone looking for the real mom would be fooled.

#253. Posted by: berkyo at January 31, 2009 5:14 AM

BTW: Anybody else getting tired of seeing that bloated belly every time you log in? . . .
→ 172. Posted by: davidrh


#254. Posted by: berkyo at January 31, 2009 5:15 AM

and one more before I try to get SOME sleep. I used to be able to sleep when I was younger. Now I wake up and worry about global warming and cloned meat and how that woman is going to nurse 8 babies. Having Lost roll around my head is not helping any.

When people get timejumpingitis, we see them suffer the same symptoms as Charlotte, but she does not seem to be suffering from the confusion and fear as other people without a constant. Desmond and Minsky (was that his name?)How come is that?

#255. Posted by: berkyo at January 31, 2009 5:33 AM

@berkyo - Funny, I have been worried about that woman and her eight babies as well....

#256. Posted by: meg at January 31, 2009 8:57 AM

....and which of those bellies looks more like mine??? hmmm

#257. Posted by: meg at January 31, 2009 8:59 AM

@ → 253. Posted by: berkyo
>I am confused. Not an unusual state for me. Didn't Des ask for Faraday's mother's address? When He asks at the door, doesn't the door answerer say that she is in the next room? Just The two of them there? I assume I missed this. The woman in the bed with a nurse IS not or is not POSING to be Faraday's mother? I thought she was supposed to be his mom so anyone looking for the real mom would be fooled.

Hi Berkyo, hope you got some sleep! I think you did miss something in that scene. Remember when Desmond was at Oxford and the janitor told him that it's a shame what Faraday did to that poor girl? The next thing you know, Desmond is knocking on that poor girl's (Theresa) door. Teresa's sister answers and says that she's in the next room and explains that Faraday just left her in this state and took off. Also explains that Widmore funded the experiment that made her the way she is (what would you call her state?) And the sister (Abigail) told Des that Widmore is paying for all of Theresa's medical bills and "everything we have here"..... just thought of something.... didn't Christian Shepherd do the same thing when Claire's mom had her accident? He paid all of the bills and hid behind the scene (for a while anyways). So, you see, Theresa is not Faraday's mother, she is probably a past love interest which is why I think that he's not really in love with Charlotte. They introduce us to Theresa and in the same epi. Faraday professes his love to Charlotte...come on! They're trying to trick us. I think he loves Charlotte like a sister not that he's IN LOVE with her (most people disagree with me. but we'll see what happens). oh, one more thing, when Des was in Faraday's lab at Oxford the camera pans to a framed pic of Faraday and to me that infers that they were a couple.

#258. Posted by: Skipper at January 31, 2009 9:02 AM

I'm still only on 71, but uh... here's what I think about the whole Daniel/Chang thing.

By the time that happened, Daniel probably already figured out when it was going to jump back to and how they were going to go about it. Or maybe by the time they realized what time period they were in and what was going on during that time, they decided to take advantage of the situation. They may have decided that Daniel examine the FDW and find out exactly what happened and if he can find a way to stop it.

... I don't think he's an old ageless man like RA.

#259. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at January 31, 2009 11:53 AM

I bet "Jughead" has other significance too.

#260. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at January 31, 2009 11:55 AM

Here's a conundrum. When are the VOOMs taking place? Now we know that the first one (from the Losties' and Frosties' point of view) takes place in 2004/5 and the second a couple of years earlier when Yemi's plane crashes etc etc. But these are only the VOOMs that the L/Frosties experience. Why would there only be VOOMs in the time periods where they are? Either the VOOMs are somehow connected to them because they were on the island when the FDW was turned, or the VOOMs are actually not L/Frostie specific and are taking place all over the timeline, perhaps accounting for all the dead people appearing all the time (on the island at least, don't know about Hurley's appearances).

Otoh, if the dead people are time travellers, then why aren't they completely freaked out and confused themselves, and why are they always only seen by one person at a time (they are, aren't they?), conincidence?

#261. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 31, 2009 11:58 AM

@#204: re Locke's life resembling someone else's. The hints are everywhere. Locke going to Jacob's place for advice (Jacob being the father of the tribes of Isreal in the Bible). Locke getting the advice from Christian Shephard (need I say more). Locke being the believer.

However, there are also some contradicting signs---with thanks to Lostpedia, because I've forgotten all these things long ago :) . Locke's mother told him he was immaculately conceived, but that turned out not to be true. And his father is a kidney stealing (kidneynapping?) sob who tries to kill him in the end. Now, if it was a rib instead of a kidney there might be some connection to make, but now... hardly I think.

So, are all these name games just to make it sound interesting, or is there more to them?

Btw, if your analogy holds true, what would that make Richard Alpert? John the Baptist?

@#216 and others: It seems the time theory you're following here is that all the events that happen on island, no matter what the time period is on-island, coincide with the 2007/2008 time period outside, i.e. the O6 time period. That would explain why Desmond suddenly remembers Daniel 3 years after leaving the island. But that wouldn't explain any of the other things, like Richard visiting Locke off island during his childhood. If the outside world has already reached 2007/8 by the time Richard meets Locke for the first time in on-island 1954, how can he go to off world 1960something?

@#156: Wow, thanks for the link to the brainwashing video on Youtube. That definitely looks like a huge statue on the island which could have been the source of the foot. But if that's the case... why would Diana have four toes?

#262. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 31, 2009 1:25 PM

A friend told me this was a great Lost blog. I think you're a [REDACTED] idiot and this is probably the worst Lost blog out there. Did your really write "why is this episode called 'jughead'?"
Kind of low on your powers of observation.

back to Doc Artz and Doc Jensen for me...

[EDITED FOR NICENESS -- BTW: Take it up with your friend.]

#263. Posted by: phil at January 31, 2009 1:50 PM

@#263 And you really couldn't resist the urge to kick someone into the ground for one little slip up? Someone who goes through the length of writing up notes for a tv programme for no other reason than for us posters to enjoy a discussion?

Be glad I can (barely) resist the urge to judge you on the basis of one post (which seems to be exactly what you're doing here), because it wouldn't be a pretty picture that would be painted. If these are the sort of posts we will be missing if you're not coming back, then I guess no one here will be very sad. At least I won't. Can't speak for the others.

#264. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 31, 2009 2:42 PM

Desmond couldn't remember Farady's message any earlier than he did because there wasn't anything for him to remember. Faraday was successfully able to make a change in the timeline because, as he told Desmond, "The Rules don't apply to you".

As for The Rules themselves, here's what we know:

1) There are Rules - so says Dr. Chang in the season opener (but just add an "e" to the end of his last name...)

2) Widmore "changed the Rules" when Alex was killed. Obviously she was not supposed to die at that point in history or Ben wouldn't have been so willing to gamble with her life.

I'm with the camp that Ellie is Eloise Hawkins is Farady's mother. I'm waiting to see Faraday to hook up with her so he can become his own father. He will be one with the compass...

#265. Posted by: jeffm at January 31, 2009 2:42 PM

@#264 ...Can't speak for the others."

You can for me Plain Simple...thanks.

I know this is against the popular belief, but I'm not completely convinced that Teresa was a love interest for Daniel. The framed picture could have been researcher and research subject. (Looked like the picture was taken at Oxford.) I re-watched that part again. When Des went to visit Teresa...her sister Abigail stated that Whidmore funded Danny's research and "took responsibility for the result of it. He's been taking care of Teresa ever since this happened to her..." I think Daniel used her (along with rat, Eloise) as his test subject and she is still time jumping. (3 year old and asking for her dolly and talking to her dead father that died 5 years before.) I don't think Daniel would be "testing" the time jumping on a woman that he was involved with and cared about.

#266. Posted by: boodle at January 31, 2009 3:21 PM

@#156 and my comment in #262: The brainwashing video you linked to is self made by some fan. The official video is up on Lostpedia (also via Youtube) and doesn't seem to have the statue in it as far as I can see.

Perhaps you never claimed anything different and I just misunderstood your post.

#267. Posted by: Plain Simple at January 31, 2009 3:31 PM

Phil.....It may do you some good to go see a good Doc. Did you and your friend notice the word "jughead" on the bomb? That would have been a really cool title for the episode,
don't you think?

#268. Posted by: lostsox at January 31, 2009 6:52 PM


Adios Phil

#269. Posted by: undaunted at January 31, 2009 8:13 PM

I love how people are starting to agree with me about Jack's annoying breathing!!!

Gaah, I hate him.

#270. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at January 31, 2009 8:28 PM

@ Crispy Seaplanes - 216
"If Ben is an a$$ then what does that make ilovebenjaminlinusxx?"

...I'm not an ass. And neither is Ben!!!

Plus, even if he was one, that would support the "nice girls usually go for jerks" theory/stereotype thing.


#271. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at January 31, 2009 8:33 PM

Great recap and comments everyone. Now that I am no longer being held hostage to my 7 year old computer, I hope to get here closer to Wednesday!

I have to say I am enjoying the new format. While the technique of taking one character (or two in the case of the married couples, a handful in the rare occasion) and exploring their on island life and their pre (or post) Island life, this new broad strokes jumping forward and backward as needed is working much better at this point. Plus there was only so much more we could learn about Locke, Kate, and Jin especially at this point.

Great episode, hope they keep em coming like this one!

#272. Posted by: FenwayBen at January 31, 2009 8:44 PM

I just noticed in rewatching that the painting in Widmore's office that says Namaste also has a giant polar bear in it!

#273. Posted by: lost2theworld at January 31, 2009 8:45 PM

I agree, I don't think Theresa and Daniel were in love, I think they were colleagues. I think Theresa fell ill because of Daniel's experiments; I think her family resents Daniel because he is responsible for her condition and he abandoned her. And I figure Daniel carries a burden of guilt about it. Maybe that's why he went to the find a way to cure her illness.

#274. Posted by: undaunted at February 1, 2009 12:33 AM

Couple things...
1) Is there anyway to update this page or do something to make it faster?
2) A lot of people said that this is the frist time they spoke latin....wasn't there some language we couldn't understand between Patchy and his lady friend at the computer station he was at? When she was yelling at thim to kill her?
3) I don't think Daniel's love is a sisterly love...when they are running off or doing whatever he says trust me I'm no Romeo...which kind of indicated to me he WAS talking about REAL love... :)
4) Do we all agree Dr AQuang's daughter was Charlotte? I really hope they get to explaining that b/c I am so annoyed...
5) **spoiler* It was definitely Jack that Sun was aiming the gun at in the preview (or sneak peak, forget which) right? If Sun blames Jack for Jin's 'death' then she is a fool and I am going to lose respect for her. She SHOULD be blaming Whidmore...
6) Do you think it will take until the END of the season for the O6 to get back and for Jin to be found to be alive?

#275. Posted by: Shana Roberson at February 1, 2009 1:56 AM

One more thing...if we think that changing the rules meant that they couldn't kill Alex b/c she was supposed to be in the future...doesn't that contradict what happenned w/ Michael? And who wants to bet we see an up-and-at-em version of Alex...the same as all the other dead people on that island?!

I still think that Whidmore was their leader at one point and got tricked into pushing the fdw...sent dharm in his place...failed at that...failed at the tanker...etc...what I want to see is the FIRST time Ben and Whidmore meet....that will be a treat (that rhymed)

#276. Posted by: Shana Roberson at February 1, 2009 2:09 AM

@252/plain simple: That's right, time did pass differently, and they could use that as an explanation, but the difference in the passage of time was not quite that dramatic when the capsule landed on the island after its due date from being launched from the ship, so that explanation alone does not satisfy me enough. It may be all we get, though.

@251: I wish I had the link that really would have helped the most, but it's on my old computer, and away for repairs; it had all of the equations in one place.

But remember, Einstein never said you can't travel faster than light (ref: spooky action at a distance with quantum entanglement), he said you can't ACCELERATE to the speed of light. With a better understanding of quantum mechanics, there is theoretically a way to transmit information in a way that at first glance violates causality, i.e., to appear before it was originated.

The second part actually still holds true for part of preserving causality, which you pointed out. The "prime" cause from the frame of reference of an outside observer (as we are) cannot precede the effect, so in cases like this, only an outside observer would be able to see all of the details. As outside observers who saw the original timeline, from our frame of reference, there is still a linear progression from "original" to "then warning" to "Desmond remembers." That causality has to be preserved, at least from our perspective. From Desmond's perspective, he's had that memory for years, the whole time, but he just couldn't/didn't access it until the point where we saw it. That very fact may be part of the (natural?) forces that help to prevent a paradox from occurring.

But to be honest, I think it only makes sense if you allow for a divergent timeline to be created. But that's just my opinion, the mathematical proofs for reconciling everything within one timeline only make my head hurt, and I can't follow them all the way.

The only way I can try to make it work is to suggest that Daniel created a sub-loop within the major timestream, and that from each person's frame of reference, events will always be linear, but with the ability to travel back in time, that person can use the sub-loop to impact other people's perceptions, which actually can have an impact further on down the major timestream, at a point where there can be no paradox.

I hope that made sense. We don't really have the right language to describe this yet, and it can be argued we haven't developed the right math to show it either. We need someone brilliant to discover "time calculus," with new expressions that can explain things better.


#277. Posted by: tpull at February 1, 2009 4:17 AM

Hey Friends - Just got home from a concert gig this morning and spent time catching up to the posts since Friday morning.

Wow, thanks for all the shoutouts from LostedIt, ealgumby, Lovelost, Freckles, and berkyo while I was gone - and hurling? My OWN acronym? I experiencing a warm fuzzy feeling all over!!! aaaaaaahhhhhhhh. (contented sigh - not screaming.)


Glad meg finally showed up. (with this guy, no less . . . don’t we get some kind of “right of fellow blogger approval”?) . . . And I concur - where is Red . . Neck . . Man?


What’s with ugly phil? Doesn’t it seem like we get one of those people every season? I remember replying to one who was not only ugly talking but also grammatically illiterate. Ah, warm memories of “Grammar Makes the Man” . . . ( I’m sorry - that will make no sense to new bloggers. )


Looking forward to next Wednesday. Problem is, I have a very early flight on Thursday morning and will probably not get to see the review and such until next Sunday evening. Bummer.

Have a good day, friends.

#278. Posted by: davidrh at February 1, 2009 9:22 AM

Hey guys - I've got a great idea. Let's all get on line tonight and have a live chat. I've checked the TV listings and the only thing on is some old football game. And surely we've all had our fill of football for awhile. No big deal . . .

#279. Posted by: davidrh at February 1, 2009 2:30 PM

Hello davidr!!!

I am getting ready to watch the episode again, and hopefully (probably not) I'll have some insightful comments to add.

I like bloggers like phil. It helps unite our blogging community against evil. Cecil Rose is awesome!!!! And, I had NO idea why it was named jughead! Cecil rules!!! :)

oh, and miss i heart benlinusXX....I am giving him to you because my love has now gone elsewhere. I will miss our arguments over which part of mr. bugeye we will keep....but alas, I am bowing out. Treat him well.

#280. Posted by: meg at February 1, 2009 2:35 PM

In the scene when Locke was asking Alpert for the way to get off the island and dislaunched from time, how is it possible that the palm trees in the background are of the same height in two different time periods?

#281. Posted by: Student at February 1, 2009 8:59 PM

258. Posted by: Skipper
it's a shame what Faraday did to that poor girl? The next thing you know, Desmond is knocking on that poor girl's (Theresa) door.

I will have to watch that again. Thanks for the explanation. Must have been arguing with my husband and missed that part......

→ 261. Posted by: Plain Simple
Either the VOOMs are somehow connected to them because they were on the island when the FDW was turned, or the VOOMs are actually not L/Frostie specific and are taking place all over the timeline,

This is very confusing. The Vrooms seem only to happen to the future losties I guess. The past versions of themselves won't experience a vroom until the island moves. The previews show a poosible meeting of their past selves and I expect the future losties will vroom in and out?

#282. Posted by: berkyo at February 1, 2009 10:58 PM

Check out this video if you haven't already:,,20251960_2,00.html

#283. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 2, 2009 2:54 AM

I'm not sure but I think I saw "jughead" printed on the Gateraid cooler at the Steelers bench last night . . .


#284. Posted by: davidrh at February 2, 2009 7:48 AM


If latin is the official other language than why were patchy and ms klug speaking russian? i know it was so the losties wouldnt understand their conversation but why not latin?

i am soooo confused with the time jumping, time traveling, time paradoxes, etc., etc., etc,...... enjoy all the theories but minute i can wrap my mind around it than next thing you know WHOOSH...... i need a drink. tequila anyone? :)

#285. Posted by: tiffani at February 2, 2009 9:51 AM

"I love how people are starting to agree with me about Jack's annoying breathing!!!
Gaah, I hate him."

ilovebenjixx, I really think it's part of Matthew Fox's acting. He makes Jack breathe like that as part of Jack's character. (I still haven't noticed it btw...!)

#286. Posted by: JoePike at February 2, 2009 11:12 AM

Please forgive me if someone has already mentioned this, and enlighten me as well.

I'm bothered by Frogurt's flaming arrow death, as well as other background Losties. They were in a time jump to an earlier period on the if they die then they won't be around to take Flight 815 and crash on the island many years later. Right? What am I missing???

#287. Posted by: JoePike at February 2, 2009 11:21 AM

Hum... @287 JoePike - you may have just stumbled on to the reason there are so many "red shirts" on the show. They are the ones that won't matter in the future if they are killed in the past because they never really did anything but gather wood and anoy Sawyer and the other "main" characters. Frogurt never did anything important, and the two "red shirts" that blew up on the land mines? Never even saw them before so they must not matter either. Now, let's say, if Sawyer got blown up, then we'd totally miss him! No hot love story with him and Kate, or saving the helicopter losties by jumping out, etc. God, I love this show!

#288. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 2, 2009 11:53 AM


(We're gonna need more red shirts...)

#289. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 2, 2009 11:56 AM

@287/ JoePike

I agree with you. These time skipping events that "cannot change the future" are changing the future. You can have so many exceptions to the rules that there are no rules.

The only way to clean up these inconsistent story lines, conflicts and paradox laden time jump is to erase the story boards and say later on that these events really were not time travel.

#290. Posted by: welh at February 2, 2009 11:58 AM

@287. Posted by: JoePike
It was Frogurt's future self that was killed, so that didn't affect his "current" self (who wasn't even conceived yet in 1954.

@280. Posted by: meg
No more fantasies now that you have a R/L man? Hmmm, I'm not sure I can wrap my brain around that. :P

@285. Posted by: tiffani
Good point. I bet the writers just thought of Latin for that ep & forgot about the Russian.

#291. Posted by: hurling at February 2, 2009 12:13 PM

If someone dies in a particular time period does their body get left behind or does it carry along with rest of the people when the time shifts occur? Either way, wouldn't someone run into one of these bodies eventually? It's one of those things we end up needing to accept as being irrelevant to the story and ignoring it. Sad to say it, but true.

#292. Posted by: LostedIt at February 2, 2009 12:58 PM


(We're gonna need a warmer donkey wheel...)

- - - -
I actually used that at a business meeting this AM. Client is a LOST fan too. I think I nailed the sale.

#293. Posted by: ANON2 at February 2, 2009 1:40 PM

Never noticed Jack's heavy breathing. Sounds like someone is a bit anal...

#294. Posted by: boozy at February 2, 2009 1:56 PM

Just thought of something...has anyone speculated yet that the vision Kate had of Claire in Aaron's bedroom wasn't a vision at all but REAL Claire? We don't know for sure what happened to her, so who's to say that she can't travel back and forth from the island to present O6 time? Maybe Kate's vision wasn't a dream but a "new memory" of seeing Claire there, a la Faraday's New memory" implanted in Des?

This may have been discussed last week, but I missed the whole thread. Just thought I would toss that in there...

#295. Posted by: Vikki at February 2, 2009 2:12 PM

I hate to make this observation, but have you noticed that the main 815 survivors are less the focal point of the story line(s) this season, and the way things are shaping up, they will wind up as secondary characters behind:

1. Ben
2. Widmore
3. Alpert
4. Faraday
5. Mrs. Hawking

for whom more and more importance is given with each passing episode/myth unraveling.

#296. Posted by: welh at February 2, 2009 5:04 PM

The thought that it was actually Claire in Aaron's bedroom makes sense when we already know that Walt visited Locke at the ditch. It doesn't look like you have to be physically on the island to appear, so therefore, Claire could appear in LA. Christian also appeared on the ship and we're not sure yet he was even in the casket.

I've been watching past episodes of S1 and some have left me wondering more about the time travel events.

In the one where Locke meets up with his father in Ben's basement, Locke asks where he came from. Ben tells Locke "you brought him here." A little time traveling yet to be revealed maybe?

I also went back and watched the scene with Claire and the psychic. I now wonder if the psychic works for the island in some way and Claire just happened to cross his path. He then had to get Aaron on that island and the only way was to convince Claire to keep the child so they could get access to him. I still don't understand what value Walt has. If Claire is dead, (and I think she is) the predictions get thrown right out the window.

And one episode that has always bothered me was the one where Locke knocked out Sayid when he was trying to triangulate Danielle's signal. Jack gets trapped in a cave-in, Sawyer meets up with Kate (while she's with Sayid) to tell her about the cave-in and Charlie goes to Locke and tells him about it. Yet, while skinning a boar, Locke finds the time to track down Sayid, bop him in the head and take out the receiver. That's dependent on the fact that Locke even knew what Sayid was up too. None of that has ever made sense, time wise, to me.

I've still got other questions that seemed to be getting lost in the time travel. Like, where is Kate's boyfriend's airplane now. It was so important to the story at one time. Where's Charlie's ring? Is that also time jumping? And I also can't come up with a good reason for Michael and Jin to get into a fight over a watch which belonged to Sun's father of all people. Maybe the watch will come into play somewhere in the future.

#297. Posted by: pebspostal at February 2, 2009 5:29 PM

#292 - lostdit - maybe that's why they have to take Locke's body with them? Hmm, kinda might get yucky if they don't.

If anyone understands that I'd love to hear the rationale behind it.

At this point I have almost given up trying to make sense of anything. My brain has switched from analysis mode to entertainment mode. I just read and write out of habit. "Scientifically" I guess they can explain away anything.

I love it when boozy shows up and makes a comment! :)

#298. Posted by: meg at February 2, 2009 5:30 PM

I think I may have something here! *Please read*, although kinda long!

Something I've been pondering ...

Are those "skipping" through time on the island still aging? As much as anything in this scenario makes sense, it seems to me that they would be. Perhaps once "skipping," those doing so are trapped in that realm forever, unless all of those present at the moment it started return to the island.

The post by jiggy (206) started me down this path: "Maybe RA is Jacob." Hmm.

Then I started thinking: what if RA is ALSO a skipper like the current Frosties? Bear with me ... We've seen that Widmore was with RA on the island back in 1954 ... what if "the island moved" back then, but Widmore somehow got off (ala the O6), and the "skipper" RA (aka Jacob) has been "stuck" skipping through time ever since?

Let's suppose this is true ... then Jacob (skipper RA) would still be aging between the skips, making him quite the old man now (RA's age in 1954 plus 50 years as of 2004). Also probably making him quite cranky, and VERY sick of the skipping ... hence his plea to Locke for HELP! Could also explain how Jacob seems to pop up in various places (via skipping) on the island, and why it's so damned hard to track him down.

Maybe the WHOLE damned plot is for Locke, et al, to bring WIDMORE back to the island, hence bringing Jacob's (i.e. RA's) endless time-skipping to a peaceful end!

Yet Jacob is a "good guy" ... he realizes, firsthand, the pain of being stuck in this limbo, and doesn't want the Frosties to be stuck in such a fate as well. As a result, his "manufacturing" of such a circumstance where Locke (Bentham) will also understand, firsthand, the importance of both bringing back the O6 (for his own relief), and Widmore (for Jacob).

Hence, "the numbers." What do they mean? I suggest they represent the years between significant "skips" for those trapped "in the loop." Let me explain ...

The O6 is currently in 2008. Locke met RA in 1954. 54 years. Half of 108. 4+8+42 = 54. 15+16+23 = 54. 1954+15+16 = 1985 ... The Incident. 2008-4 = 2004 ... 815 crashes. 1954+16 = 1970 ... Dharma Initiative created. 2008-4-8 = 1996 ... when Des left Penny, began his journey, and started his time-shifting flashes (also when he called Penny, telling her to call him EIGHT years later in 2004). 1954+8 = 1962 ... when RA visits young John Locke, as well as when Ben was born prematurely. 1954+23 = 1977 ... when Ben arrived on-island, as well as when Hurley and Kate were born. 2004-16 = 1988 ... when Rousseau arrived on the island.

Perhaps you think this contrived ... given the variability of the numbers, and the dates involved, MANY possibilities result, and many of these have significance within the Lost mythology.

However ... I do NOT think so ... I think "the numbers" represent important "time skips," in years, from the "end-points" of this saga (1954 to 2008).

Another element in support of my theory ... Adam and Eve! Most people seem to have forgotten that there was ANOTHER skeleton found in the cave along with Adam and Eve. So who are they (all)?

They represent the people Jacob KNOWS must come back, both in order to free himself, and the O6.

Here's my theory ... Adam and Eve are Widmore and Eloise, while the "extra" skeleton belongs to Locke. All the other Losties, et al, will get off the island in the end, including Jacob (RA), soon to die in the closing scene of the finale. Having "closed the loops," so to speak, the Valenzetti will have "changed," saving humanity.

How can this be, you might ask? How can Locke be among the living post-crash, but also a dead skeleton on the island? Ah, but that is the mystery of Lost!

I stand firm in my prediction (uh, yeah, I've done that before, and always "lost"), but this time I REALLY mean it!

PS: Also goes well with the leitmotif of the next epi ... "The Little Prince" ...

"One sees clearly only with the heart. Anything essential is invisible to the eyes"

#299. Posted by: ealgumby at February 2, 2009 7:25 PM

Oh ... didn't mention explicitly ... Eloise (aka "Ms. Hawking," aka "Ellie") must ALSO return with Widmore ... and will ...

After all, she's half of Adam/Eve don't you know!

#300. Posted by: ealgumby at February 2, 2009 7:33 PM

PPS: From "The Little Prince" ...

"Grown-ups like numbers"

Hence Jacob's (RA's) attempt to describe his situation by means people (aka "adults" in TLP nomenclature) would understand, because "everyone should understand it, regardless of age or the amount of imagination a person has." (

Count "us" included ...

#301. Posted by: ealgumby at February 2, 2009 7:47 PM

Finally, why would "old RA" refer to himself as "Jacob?" Clearly, from the last epi, RA knows who Jacob is back in 1954 ... why would he (Jacob) not just say "I'm you, dude!"

Perhaps because he knows (via the Bunny #15 incident) that he should NOT have any contact with his "non-skipping" self. By giving himself an alternate persona, he can achieve "mysticism" to keep RA away, and establishes the "ash ring" as a means "current RA" can keep himself, from himself (i.e., "I command you, NEVER cross the ashen ring!") ... aka obscure religious rituals which do not seem to make sense, unless you know why! After all, we NEVER saw what happened after Bunny #15 jumped into the Orchid film with already-Bunny #15 there ... perhaps THIS was "The Incident" when Bunny's #15 bumped into each other!?

I have NFI ... just a thought ...

#302. Posted by: ealgumby at February 2, 2009 8:01 PM

We interrupt Lost blogging to bring you this important update from Pittsburgh, PA:





We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

#303. Posted by: Clementine at February 2, 2009 8:25 PM

BTW ...

phil/263 ...

Seriously, how do you make it through the day? Just curious ... I pity you.

Honestly ... don't know how I'd make it through life with nothing else to live for except anonymously degrading superior others, but thinking otherwise ... must keep ya warm at night, huh?

You just keep thinking that ... and make it through yet another insufferable day/night cycle ... every day above ground is a good day, ya know!

Don't know if I should ride you, or support your climb toward humanity ... hopefully the latter. If not, then GFYAH ... I'd LOVE to meet ya, and set your attitude straight!

#304. Posted by: ealgumby at February 2, 2009 8:32 PM

@303. Posted by: Clementine
All of PA celebrates!

#305. Posted by: hurling at February 2, 2009 8:45 PM

@305/hurling "All of PA celebrates!"

Aren't you an Eagles fan? Just asking ... I'm originally from WI (Packer fan!), and this smacks of me giving a shout out to the Bears if they (ever) win the SB again, unless the state-wide PA pride thing is in force here! Personally, I'd rather die by phil/boozy/BNJ torture than admit to congratulating the Bears for a SB win ... are you NOT an Eagles fan?

#306. Posted by: ealgumby at February 2, 2009 8:57 PM

Once upon a time, there was a team called the Steagles...

If we can't have a Turnpike Super Bowl, one of us can represent.

Steeler Nation embraces all.

Thanks, hurling!

#307. Posted by: Clementine at February 2, 2009 9:10 PM

Goodbye eyeliner:

@#299: It's a nice theory, but since 16-15=1 you can make every year you want by combining 15 and 16 in the right way.

#308. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 2, 2009 9:23 PM

@308/Plain Simple :

Trust me, I completely understand your point, except ...

Try making things work w/o more than one 16-15 in the mix though ... and I'm not making up the significant dates in question. Like I said, I KNOW it's still very iffy ... 2008-23-8 = 1967 ... what is that? Maybe nothing ... maybe something yet to be revealed?

Just thought the "obvious" date correlations beared observing ...

Nonetheless, I stand by my more basic premise that "skipping" RA/Jacob is aging, and keeping "himself" away from "himself," so to speak. All in an effort to bring Widmore/Eloise back to the island to "free" himself (and the O6/Frosties out of necessity), and that Adam/Eve are Widmore/Eloise.

Not SWEARING I'm right ... just an idea which (I think) no one has presented before, and makes some sense ...

#309. Posted by: ealgumby at February 2, 2009 9:54 PM

The more I think about it, the more I agree with myself:

Here's my theory ... Adam and Eve are Widmore and Eloise, while the "extra" skeleton [at the cave] belongs to Locke. All the other Losties, et al, will get off the island in the end, including Jacob (RA), soon to die [off-island] in the closing scene of the finale. Having "closed the loops," so to speak, the Valenzetti [equation] will have "changed," saving humanity.

I place my theory now ...

soon to be proved wrong no doubt ...

#310. Posted by: ealgumby at February 2, 2009 10:29 PM

Has this Valenzetti equation ever been mentioned on the show or only in these alternate reality games? I hope they will not turn it into a major plot point just before the end, without introducing it long before. Otherwise we would have had six years of built up only for them to say in the end, "o everything was about this equation, whaddyaknow, bye now."

#311. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 2, 2009 11:45 PM

re: Valenzetti. In the show, the word Valencetti was on the blast door map in the Swan Station. "Low relevance to Valencetti-related research activity."

In the alt reality game "The Lost Experience", during Alvar Hanso's orientation film, he says.

"After the Cuban Missile Crisis, both nations decided to find a solution. The result was the Valenzetti Equation. Commissioned under the highest secrecy, through the U.N. Security Council, the equation is the brain child of the Italian mathematician Enzo Valenzetti. It predicts the exact number of years and months before humanity extinguishes itself. Whether through nuclear fire, chemical and biological warfare, conventional warfare, pandemic, over-population... his results are chilling, and attention must be paid. Valenzetti gave numerical values to the core environmental and human factors in his equation: 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42. Only by manipulating the environment, by finding scientific solutions to all of our problems we will be able to change those core factors, and give humanity a chance to survive. Although the equation has been buried by those who commissioned it... panic. It has always been my belief that we ignore warnings at our own peril; and thus, the DHARMA Initiative was born."

#312. Posted by: DocH at February 3, 2009 2:22 AM

@309/ealgumby: You're right that they might only consider jumps in time according to one or two of the numbers at a time. And anyway, it's not like we're actually trying to figure out time travel here, we're only guessing what the writers/producers have come up with. :)

Perhaps you can send your theory to Doc Jensen over on,,1550612_20245769_20255326_6,00.html

He's asking for someone to connect the numbers to the time jumps.

@312/DocH: The producers have always claimed that you only had to follow the show to get the whole story. Listen to the 03/10/08 podcast here for more on this. So, I would expect that if the Valenzetti equation plays a big role in the shows story, that it must pop up at some time and not just for the final episode or so. I wouldn't like it if they throw six years of set up overboard and make everything revolve around an equation that (from the show's pov) is only introduced at the end.

Anyway, since the numbers are still a mystery on the show I'm guessing that the equation will come up at some point. I hope at least that they won't keep these numbers just floating out there without any kind of explanation (or explanation like story connected to them).

#313. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 3, 2009 2:47 AM

Hey everyone, blogging isn’t as easy for me and a few others anymore it seems.

Thanx Cecil for the great review. Maybe when mac gets back u can do a preview to the weeks show? Add a new format that way the review could be pushed back maybe a day or two…

A few things;

When Hawking mentioned to Ben that he’ll have to get them back to the island quick, as he only has 70 (or how many ever) hours to get them there, why was that exactly? Was the island going to move again or is it because it’s going to go thru another jump? We’ve, obviously seen the island(ers) ‘jump’ since then, but we don’t really have the time frame reference between off island (when Ben met Hawking) and ‘current’ on-island. So if shes tracking the position of the island and estimates 70hrs to get them back is it because:
1. The island will physically move/disappear again, i.e. someone will have to move the FDW again? In which case why will this happen? And how does she KNOW it will happen. It seems unlikely a physical jump is going to occur. And why would it be a problem, if she found it after the last time the FDW was engaged presumably she can find it again, no?
2. Or. I’ve been wondering this one for a while, how do they plan on introducing the O6 back into the island? Its one thing for time-travelers to go cavorting through space/time but it seems to me quite unlikely to ‘pop’ non-time-traveling peoples (O6+ whomever) into an unstable time flux/loop. So going back to the point I was trying to make; isn’t it more likely that the time reference Hawking gave Ben is the time he has until the next time frame that off-island will match on-island?

Also, what’s controlling the jumps? Where is the energy coming from? Did turning the FDW release the energy creating an unstable condition for the island(ers) jumping through time AS WELL AS space? Was that the intention/by-product all along, im not really sure, I thought not initially since it seemed that the huge release of energy would have an unpredictable impact on the island. But Dr. Chang seemed to know what the consequences might be… Last thing bothering me: Is there order to the seemingly random prancing around of time or is their structure? They seem random... but I dislike random events and look for order. If the energy is just being released then why aren’t they CONSTANTLY flipping through time? There either must be sporadic releases, but in such a case what controls the amount, u see? Am I over analyzing it?

Anyone have ideas to my questions? Also what exactly are the dates of the ‘jumps’ and if possible, rough estimations between them?

#314. Posted by: Apollo at February 3, 2009 5:18 AM

@313 re:@312 - The producers have always claimed that you only had to follow the show to get the whole story. Listen to the 03/10/08 podcast here for more on this. So, I would expect that if the Valenzetti equation plays a big role in the shows story, that it must pop up at some time and not just for the final episode or so. I wouldn't like it if they throw six years of set up overboard and make everything revolve around an equation that (from the show's pov) is only introduced at the end.
- - - -
I didn't offer an opinion, I shared what is out there (aka. did your research for you). I agree with everything you said AND I don't listen to PodCasts - they tend to spoil. ARG is not show... I don't do them. It's pretty much the show, great FilmFodder reviews and L-Pedia for me. Don't do DVD's either. I hope the numbers are HUGE for the next 30 episodes, not the last 3. But when the only way to put Valenzetti in context is to dig into L-Pedia, then so be it.

I looked at Hawking again. Her chalkboard equations look nothing like Valenzetti. I did notice though that when Ben was at the PC in the dark corner - it said "Event Window Determined" on the screen. That may have something to do with the "pendulum" we saw, her equations and something Donkey Wheel-related - perhaps an abstraction of Valenzetti.

#315. Posted by: DocH at February 3, 2009 6:28 AM


Good questions...not too many answers, I'm guessing. Although I like order also, I'm thinking there is no structure to the jumps. (Or at least not revealed yet.) In "Jughead", when Daniel, Miles and Charlotte are in the Others' tent...I think Miles asked something about when the next "time jump" would be...? Daniel said something like, "...could be 5 seconds or 5 (or 5,000?) years..." I think that Daniel knows stuff, but obviously, he doesn't know everything about the time jumps. But, as vague as his answer was, it still was more definitive than I would have answered. I would have said something like, "How the heck would I know..." or "I dunno..."

#316. Posted by: boodle at February 3, 2009 6:58 AM

@ JoePike - 286

"ilovebenjixx, I really think it's part of Matthew Fox's acting. He makes Jack breathe like that as part of Jack's character. (I still haven't noticed it btw...!)"

Actually, he did that annoying breathing thing in Vantage Point and We Are Marshall also.

Gaah, I really hate him. =]

Good to have you back by the way!

#317. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 3, 2009 8:54 AM


I must say that after a lot of consideration I am throwing my hat in the ring with you. I rewatched Ben's introduction to the show in season 2 and...he is the best character ever. Although Sawyer deserves his due credit in the eye candy/one-liner department, Ben's character is just evilly delicious.

#318. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 3, 2009 9:02 AM

@314 Apollo graciously said:

>Thanx Cecil for the great review. Maybe when mac gets back u can do a preview to the weeks show? Add a new format that way the review could be pushed back maybe a day or two…

Oh, mac was back the next day. If you noticed the review being cleaned up from minor html formatting errors throughout the day Thursday, that was all mac's doing. He da' man.

One of mac's rules for Fodder Network reviewers is for the review to be posted within 24 hours of the show so that eager posters can get to chatting. He holds himself to a higher - and to me near freaking impossible - standard and gets his own reviews of Lost up in just a few hours, so I don't think he's want to push anything back.

Plus I 'bout killed myself (and missed you-know-what - pace DRH) trying to get it up fast. Don't think I could do that week in and week out -unless I should luck into a Friday show.

BTW, I'm going to try my hand at reviewing another show about stranded castaways who are sometimes on an island and nearly always near water of some sort.

Unless they've found another /s/u/c/k/e/r/ eager reviewer, look for my "Survivor - Tocantins - The Brazilian Highlands" reviews starting next week.

#319. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 3, 2009 9:46 AM

The episode is called Jughead because that is a nickname for the bomb. In fact it is written on the side of it.

#320. Posted by: JayCee3 at February 3, 2009 10:29 AM


(having a DRH moment here)

Please let it be Wednesday soon.

#321. Posted by: Clementine at February 3, 2009 10:52 AM

Hooray for Cecil reviewing Survivor! :))) See you in the comments section!

#322. Posted by: Clementine at February 3, 2009 10:56 AM


Can I get a group NOOOOOOoooooOOoooo - NOT AGAIN !!!!

#323. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 3, 2009 10:56 AM

Survivor reviews--I'm so there! Can't wait!

#324. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 3, 2009 11:18 AM

@299-302-ealgumby you ROCK!!!! i mean seriously. :) you go!!!

#325. Posted by: tiffani at February 3, 2009 11:38 AM

@ → 291. Posted by: hurling
It was Frogurt's future self that was killed, so that didn't affect his "current" self (who wasn't even conceived yet in 1954.)

hurling, you rock. The lightbulb finally went off in my head. Thanks for the clarification.

So Locke is gonna leave his beloved island knowing that he's going to die. That he has to die. Seems a bit out of character for him since his dream is to lead the Others...but I guess a life of island time jumping isn't too ideal either.

#326. Posted by: JoePike at February 3, 2009 11:46 AM

310. Posted by: ealgumby
I like your theory but I don't remember the third skeleton. Refresh my aging memory.
I had always thought it would be Jack and Kate where as they were the ones to stumble across them and I think Jack kept the white and black stones

#327. Posted by: BTLY at February 3, 2009 12:02 PM

@315/DocH: Thanks for "doing my research", but don't worry. I had looked it up on Lostpedia already before your post. I was just wondering if it was every mentioned in the show in any way that the average viewer would be aware of it. So not scribbled away on a crowded map that's only visible for a couple of seconds or so? (How long was it visible in the show, it's been ages since I saw these episodes.)

I just referred to the podcast in case you wanted to hear more. And don't worry, I don't think a year old podcast will spoil much. Btw, I didn't listen to the podcasts either, I just listened to a few for the first time ever over the past weekend.

O, and when did I ever say you offered an opinion?

@326/Joe Pike: Locke seems primarily interested in finding out 'his destiny'. And what's a bigger destiny then to die for his precious Island?

#328. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 3, 2009 12:15 PM

One more day 'til TGIW (thank g-d its Wednesday).

Someone have a clip of section of the "Adam and Eve" episode that's being discussed lately so we can review?

ealgumby, you've got some serious spare time on your hands! ;)

ilovebenjaminlinusxx, it's ok, Jack's just an character, performed by an actor, breathe, oh no wait actually forget the breathing part, count to 10, look away from the screen, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Can anyone tell I'm starting to grasp at straws to maintain a conversation now that the week is coming to a close?

#329. Posted by: LostedIt at February 3, 2009 12:19 PM

I read on another site that someone was proposing that Des and Penny's offspring/demon spawn was not just named Charlie, but is in fact our very own "Yer Gonna Die, Bruthuh" slash "You All Everybody" Hobbit Charlie.

The theory relies on the fact that the keyboard in the underwater hatch was programmed by a musician...yadda yadda...

Throw in a little time-skipping and one could argue that it's entirely possible.

Of course, then somebody else goes on to mention What about Charlie's brother? Maybe he was adopted blah blah blah...must...stop...hand...from...slapping...myself... (Wasn't that meg's schtick way back when?)

Oh, and BTW, I think Jughead refers to Kate's tramp stamp...


#330. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 3, 2009 1:20 PM

Was time passing the same way on and off the island until the O6 were rescued? I thought it was different time spans, but wouldn't the O6 have noticed that a lot more time had passed off island than they thought when they were picked up?

#331. Posted by: Rudy at February 3, 2009 1:42 PM

@330: The thought briefly crossed my mind, but since we saw his brother and father in flashbacks I dismissed it. They can always retcon it into Charlie being adopted, but that feels like such a cheat.

@331: I think the on- and off-island time were only off for a couple of hours, perhaps days at most, before Ben turned the FDW. That seems to make the most sense considering Faraday's rocket experiment to the freighter and the fact that the O6 returned to civilisation in a reasonable time span for the outside world.

#332. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 3, 2009 1:48 PM

Cecil, not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet but Jughead was the name written on the side of that bomb. I haven't read any of the 330 likely very informative and rather intelligent posts so far. I'm going to now but I just wanted to point that one out since I had a moment before I started reading everything.

Hah!... Hah!....

Ok, I think insanity has officially set in. I'm going to go crawl into a corner and suck my thumb for a while now.


mmmmrrrrrmmmmmm Kelly Clarkson!....

What is this island that everyone keeps talking about? Is it a ride? Is it on springs? Is Frozen Donkey Wheel one of those new-fangled ice cream flavors from Ben & Jerry? Ben & Charles? Why can't they just tell the story instead of all of this jumping around to all of this other stuff? It's not like it's relevant, is it? If some people want to get off and some people want to get on, why can't everyone just agree to switch seats and they'll all be happy? I don't mean to judge but I think Ben's not such a nice guy. Can someone get that girl with the bloody nose a tissue already?


Ahhh, much better now.

#333. Posted by: LostedIt at February 3, 2009 2:04 PM

329. Posted by: LostedIt

Someone have a clip of section of the "Adam and Eve" episode that's being discussed lately so we can review?

Lostpedia has the transcrpts of this.

House of the Rising Sun EPS 6

#334. Posted by: BTLY at February 3, 2009 2:12 PM

I lost 30 lbs of stomach fat in 8 weeks by obeying this 1 rule.

Anybody know what that freakin rule is?

30 + 8 + 1 = 39...nope, not seeing the connection.
okay let's try
30 days + 56 days (which is 8 weeks)= 86 + 1 = 87.... again, nope.


#335. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 3, 2009 2:15 PM

30 - 8 + 1 = 23!!!!


#336. Posted by: Cecil at February 3, 2009 2:39 PM

I lost 30 pounds screaming this week.

(Not to mention banging my head on my desk . . . )

"isitwednesdayyet?" quote-unquote.

#337. Posted by: davidrh at February 3, 2009 2:44 PM

Hmm, I see Tuesday Afternoon Lost Blog Fever has set in.

After restricting my daily caloric intake to the total circumference of the FDW and rotating my VW tires counterclockwise whilst playing my Shambala 45 backwards, I had a revelation. A prophesy, if you will. It came to me clearly in a dream where Boone was licking Dharma peanut butter off my toes after Chang tested me for salmonella.

But I can’t tell you the answer.

The island doesn’t want you to know. Yet.

I can only offer this important clue. An anagram for Jughead is...


#338. Posted by: Clementine at February 3, 2009 2:54 PM

@336 - Thank you Cecil! I knew there had to be SOME connection to LOST.

Again... anybody know that one rule for losing all that weight? Cause I'm not clicking the link. Gotta be better than screaming everytime somebody revealed the mysterious "Jughead bomb," right davidrh?

I think Cecil has learned a valuable lesson. NEVER end your review with a question. EVER.

Can we get another ad please? Please?

#339. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 3, 2009 2:55 PM

I'm an idiot ... there are NOT three skeletons ... I remembered badly! :( Originally Kate sees only one, and then Jack sees them both ... for some reason I thought "Kate's" was separate from "Jack's" Adam & Eve skeletons, but I was wrong ... sorry for the confusion.

I still think Widmore/Eloise are Adam/Eve though. I suggest we'll soon see in an upcoming epi the black/white stones in Widmore's hands, still off-island.

#340. Posted by: ealgumby at February 3, 2009 3:00 PM

"I can only offer this important clue. An anagram for Jughead is...


That turned my frown upside down ... thanks! :)

#341. Posted by: ealgumby at February 3, 2009 3:04 PM

Wash away my trouble, wash away my pain
With the rain of Shambala
Wash away my sorrow, wash away my shame
With the rain of Shambala

Ah, ooh ooh oo oo ooh ooh, Jughead was the bomb
Ah, ooh ooh oo oo ooh ooh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

#342. Posted by: Clementine at February 3, 2009 3:10 PM

The real benefit in jumping back in time is that I will lose weight!!!

Ok, my thinking is that Ben has 70 hours to get back to the island because that will put everyone back in place 'before' he turned the wheel. That's why Walt is not needed. It may take them back to before the arrival of the freighter. By changing the past, he will change the future. I don't trust what Dan says.

Exactly why was he turning the wheel anyway. Was it just to hide from Widmore? Was there more to it that I can't remember?

And thinking about Dan's girlfriends and mother, we still don't know who was with him while he was watching the news about the plane being found. That lady needs to be brought into play somehow.

#343. Posted by: pebspostal at February 3, 2009 3:22 PM

Hello All

I just caught up on all the post, and since everything seems to have been covered.

I was wondering if anyone else saw Jimmy Kimmel the other night? He had a man on who collects Mac and Cheese boxes. Jimmy asked him if there was any box he was looking for, but had been unable to find. The man said that he has been trying to get none other then the Dharma Mac and Cheese Box from the hatch in season 2. Jimmy then presented him with none other then the prop box of Dharma Mac and Cheese. He was speechless as only a Lost fan who collects Macaroni boxes could be.

Can wait for tomorrow night. Hurry up already.

#344. Posted by: Dakota at February 3, 2009 3:46 PM

You want to know why all the "Dharma Brands"?

In my humble opinion it's a simple production problem. The producers had already been hit over the head with the anachonism of the washer and dryer being from a different era than the rest of the stuff in the swan hatch, and all the specualtion that produced.

They even wrote a comment about it into Libby's mouth just to throw a bone to the fans.

Now with the cargo drops, they're suddenly faced with hundreds of detail-obsessed fans armed with HD DVR's and seemingly unlimited speculation time poring over every little brand label and coming up with "Aha, ALL-Natural Potrzeebies weren't available in the 2.6 oz size until February of 2005 thus proving my theory that Lost is in an alternate reality!"

They headed off this possibilty by coming up with Dharma brand stuff that had no real-world baggage.

It also added a nice touch of surreality to the show.

Trivia: What was the only foodstuff in the hatch NOT Dharma branded. (Hint: Kate, in the middle of a rescue-Jack-from-Desmond effort, stopped to stuff herself with some.)

#345. Posted by: Cecil at February 3, 2009 4:27 PM

Locke has to die, in order to help bring the 06 back to the Island, or so says Richard. So I guess Locke’s death is meant to scare the 06 into coming back to the island, taking Bentham’s corpse with him. That makes sense for people like Benjamin Linus. So what about Locke?
I don’t believe they just need the corpse for ‘something’. They must need John alive. So

A They revive his, by now somewhat funky, body. Possible, I guess. If it IS that, then it had better be during a frightening, spectacular ceremony in the Temple with the 4 toed people. Because it’s not very original elsewise.

B They just go back in time and bring a past version of John to the future. Don’t think so. How could John live his life if you pull him out of it? I don’t even believe they could accomplish it. Plus, why bring back the body then?

C They duplicated John and sent nr 2 after the 06. I guess it’s possible. Maybe Alpert replicates himself as well. Maybe it’s more of a splitting than a duplicating of body and mind. That could be why they need to bring back Bentham. I don’t like it, though. It makes me doubt even the few things I think I know about the Lost universe.

D John isn’t dead at all, it’s a spider/drug/etc. Plausible. Richard didn’t specify his remark about John ‘having to die’. Not very exciting though.

E They need his body, so Obi-John’s ghost can return. Plausible. We know about the ghosts. Maybe Alpert, Ben and/or other Others can see and/or communicate with ghosts. Or they want to use …, that Asian dude with the Lostees.

I’m thinking/hoping E or A :)

#346. Posted by: Molemangler at February 3, 2009 5:32 PM

@ #345

Was it some kind of cereal?

#347. Posted by: Dakota at February 3, 2009 5:43 PM

No, not Crispy Seaplanes. (g)

#348. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 3, 2009 5:51 PM

I believe Kate took a break from rescuing Jack to grab a bite of Apollo candy bar. Not as magically delicious as Crispy Seaplanes, but I'm sure the chocolate hit the spot :)

#349. Posted by: Clementine at February 3, 2009 6:16 PM

When Apollo said in @314 about the energy being released made me think about the 108 minutes...what if the time between jumps is 108? Pushing the button in the Swam prevented the energy from dissipating, and thus there were no time jumps. With the FDW being turned and the Swam destroyed, the energy release causes the continual time jumps.

#350. Posted by: PeterisLost at February 3, 2009 6:33 PM

@338/342: LOL

Clementine, thanks! :)

Btw, I really think they should have given the bomb a name. That way they could have named the episode after the bomb. How cool would that've been!

#351. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 4, 2009 1:56 AM

"Jughead", the title of the episode, is the name given to the H-bomb. It's written in red pain on the device itself.

#352. Posted by: Guy at February 4, 2009 2:50 AM



System Failure
System Failure

System Failure

#353. Posted by: Clementine at February 4, 2009 5:11 AM

I am so glad it is Wednesday finally!! I think we are all getting a bit punchy...

#354. Posted by: boodle at February 4, 2009 7:11 AM

I am so glad it is Wednesday finally!! I think we are all getting a bit punchy!

#355. Posted by: boodle at February 4, 2009 7:12 AM

"Jughead", the title of the episode, is the name given to the H-bomb. It's written in red pain on the device itself.
352. Posted by: Guy

O Guy, Guy, Guy . . How could you? After 351 entries? . . . Obviously only one thing to say . . .

Everybody, all together:

( )

That was too easy.

#356. Posted by: davidrh at February 4, 2009 7:46 AM


Sorry for the double post...itchy trigger finger...

#357. Posted by: boodle at February 4, 2009 8:34 AM

Jughead was the name of Charles Foster Kane's sled.

davidrh & Clem - That was from me to you. With love.

#358. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 4, 2009 9:07 AM

Oh, TGIW...

#359. Posted by: LostedIt at February 4, 2009 10:02 AM

If we've learned ANYTHING from this past week it's that we need to buy Cecil Rose a DVR. ;) JWTB! Red pain.

Punchy? Who's punchy?

Ok, in a brief moment of lucidity I asked myself this question (I said to myself "Bobby?" and then I said "What?" Well what would you say?) Is Bentham really Locke? The answer to that might be tied to this question - Is the second bunny #15 in the Orchid video a copy of the original bunny #15 or the same bunny #15 from a different time period?

#360. Posted by: LostedIt at February 4, 2009 10:13 AM

Well, as long as we're all being silly...

If Charles Widmore was disguised as "Jones"...

...& JWTB...

...& Jughead's last name was Jones...

...then is Charles da Bomb?

Good thing I'm not planning on making my living as a comedienne... ; )

#361. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at February 4, 2009 11:11 AM

Somehow I don't think Citizen Kane would be the revered movie it is today if Charles Foster Kane's dying word was "Jughead". The image of Orson Welles whispering jughead is too funny!

Oh and Guy had to be joking right? He wasn't seriously informing everyone of that, right? He just wanted to get davidrh screaming again, right?

#362. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 4, 2009 11:43 AM

Gotta love "red pain" though ... what a marvelous expression!

Upon viewing yet another JWTB post, disgust was etched in red pain across every reader's face ... and davidrh's head went critical!

#363. Posted by: ealgumby at February 4, 2009 12:15 PM

I know the 1 rule for weight loss:

Now can we get a new ad?

#364. Posted by: hurling at February 4, 2009 12:51 PM

In a brief moment of lucidity, I asked myself THIS question (I says to myself, "Clem?" and then I says, "What?")

Where are vacc and bcre8ve? Did you ever consider that the Blog itself may be skipping and we're all along for the ride? At some point, we may come across vacc and bcre8ve in an army field tent wearing eyeliner. Just remember to say, "Mac sent me."


And where's Naysayer with his Weds naysaying, I say?


I've already used RED PAIN in casual conversation today. Have you?

And wasn't the paint on the side of the bomb yellow? Or was that just on my non-HD tv?


The best part of Ariana, the weight loss lady, is the TRUE testimonials at the bottom of the page. These are REAL people. It's not just Ariana talking to herself. And "Ariana" doesn't look like Wilford Brimley in real life. No, she doesn't!

If she really wants to sell product, hire Richard Alpert as spokesmodel. Because an Eternal Youth supplement sounds a whole lot more appealing than a Colon Cleanser supplement.

#365. Posted by: Clementine at February 4, 2009 1:37 PM

Since vacc volunteered to be the next /s/a/c/r/i/f/i/c/i/a/l/ /v/i/c/t/i/m/ substitute for mac, he must be still around somewhere. Perhaps endlessly trying to get his map pin to stick in the lost bloggers' map?

#366. Posted by: Cecil at February 4, 2009 2:47 PM

So, if Faraday is Widmore's son, that makes him Penny's brother.

Desmond is Faraday's constant,
Penny is Desmond's constant...

do we have anymore?

Who is Mrs Hawkings?
Who is Ellie?

#367. Posted by: AC at February 4, 2009 3:03 PM


What if that soldier woman is that old woman off island and that she is the one who tells Desmond not to marry Penny back in the day.

Because that is what happens.


It's been a long time for me.

Ooh anyone watch Battlestar Galactica?

#368. Posted by: AC at February 4, 2009 3:06 PM

Even Suri is trying to figure what's going on, no doubt this recap will be helpful!

#369. Posted by: blahgirls at February 4, 2009 3:35 PM

LMAO from #338 on.

-353 Clementine....priceless!
-356 davidrh...I share your paint!

TGIW, indeed. Hopefully, we can start all over again tomorrow - ie there will be no more JWTB. RIP.

#370. Posted by: lovelost at February 4, 2009 4:49 PM

Having just posted the acronym LMAO: if only THAT would work in the weight-loss department. We'd all have flat butts today. And we wouldn't have to suffer those horrible ads.

#371. Posted by: lovelost at February 4, 2009 4:52 PM


NBC beat you to it!

#372. Posted by: ealgumby at February 4, 2009 6:07 PM

@333, 353, 365, 338 Lost Edit n Clementine - Exactly what are you drinking/popping, and can I have some? Definitely have a flat butt now!

@iluvbenxx - Sorry I called you a donkeylover! But I'm still in the Ben's a murderous psychopath camp.

@ealgumby - I don't agree that Richard skips in time, unless the Others are, too. He wouldn't last very long as the temp leader if he keeps vanishing into thin air. To me, the Others seem to be traveling through time in a linear fashion, judging by their history on the show. Interesting theory, though!

#373. Posted by: freckles at February 4, 2009 6:10 PM

This just in - "Little Prince" is a second nuke bomb.

#374. Posted by: MorBid0 at February 4, 2009 7:03 PM


Hey, I know it's a reach, but ...

What if RA is the only one of the 1954 Others to end up skipping? Took another look at the JH epi, and I do not recognize any of the other Others. I suppose they could've aged, or died, but there're clearly no other recognizable RA-like "timeless" Others.

Or perhaps other Others are skipping as well, but RA (aka Jacob) is the only one left, and the remainder account for the mysterious "whispers" as they continue to pop in/out of the active timeline? This leads to the question ... can "skippers" skip back in time to a place where/when previous incarnations of themselves exist?

For example ... going back to my premise that RA is a skipper as of 1954 ... suppose he "skipped" to 1969 next, still the same age as of 1954. Then on to 1985, and so on, eventually ending up back in 1954, etc. for example (assuming he's trapped in some kind of loop). He could end up "seeing" himself as the young RA, just beginning the skipping, yet aging every time through "the cycle."

Now assume "old RA" (aka Jacob) remains cryptic, but occasionally gives skipping RA a bone regarding what he needs to do. "Young RA" could obtain a ton of knowledge about what is about to come (such as where to find Locke with the bullet in his leg, and to give him the compass, etc.), while "old RA" (Jacob) continues to age.

Also suppose at some point, "The Swan" is built to stabilize the "skips" for young RA, but since "Jacob" has already passed this point in his "timeline," he continues to skip, and age. I know, nosebleed time, but what if?

At any point in past time "young RA" appears, he would seem magical to those he encounters, with explicit knowledge of who they are, etc. This "mystic" leader could ostensibly convince "others" to follow him, even if his comings/goings were rather random. Meanwhile, Jacob continues to skip, and suffer ... one reason he's not always "available."

Digging deep, I know, but not outside the possibilities this show has presented, IMO. I firmly believe Jacob will be shown to be a "skipper," whether RA or not ... it just, kinda, seems to work with him. And also gives good reason for Widmore/Ellie to return to the island ... hence them ending up as Adam/Eve (given they wind up back in 1954 somehow upon their return ... haven't worked that out yet).

@365/Clementine: "wasn't the paint on the side of the bomb yellow?"

The "Jughead" paint was white!

Hopefully, it's too late now for us to end up with TJPWW!

As an aside ... still annoyed by how they ended up epis 1/2 when Yemi's plane crashed, to meet at the creek, and began epi 3 in 1954, with no indication of another VOOM in between. Bad, bad, BAD, D&C!

#375. Posted by: ealgumby at February 4, 2009 7:16 PM

@365: Clementine - Heh, I don't know if you caught my mangled repeat of the skit, but it was actually a Howie Mandel routine. He had this teeny little boy voice that he used to pretend he was a boy named Bobby. "Bobby" would repeat a story about a conversation he had with his mom - "So my mom says to me 'Bobby' and I said 'What?'" and without pause he'd look at the audience and quickly respond "Well what would YOU say?"

Just so you don't think I've absolutely positively justified my nickname here on the Lost Blog. Only mostly.

(Reminds me of another quote from a movie I really really enjoyed - "They mostly only come out at night. Mostly" - Anyone?)

BTW, I'm stuck late at work and might not even be able to watch the episode if I get home too late. If so, I'm going to be a blithering uninformed idiot here tomorrow, not that that isn't normal behavior from me...

#376. Posted by: LostedIt at February 4, 2009 7:41 PM

Also ... perhaps "skipper" RA (Jacob) learns "over time" exactly what the skipping cycle is, and how much time he has between skips (assuming they repeat over and over in the same pattern ... determined by "the numbers?"). This could allow him "time" to leave the island, via sub, other?, and bring back people like Locke's dad, and perhaps even others like Christian/Yemi/horse/et al, before they "died."

Therefore, the "ghosts" might not be such at all, just time-travel-incarnations of themselves, facilitated by Jacob (RA)? Eliminates *some* of the metaphysical element ... maybe?

#377. Posted by: ealgumby at February 4, 2009 7:43 PM

@376/LostedIt: Carrie "Newt" Henn

#378. Posted by: ealgumby at February 4, 2009 7:58 PM

Has anyone else noticed that Cindy's Scarf seems to have to transmogrified itself into Daniel's tie? Why TF does he STILL continue to wear that stupid 80's thin tie? Dude is stomping through the jungle, coming near death repeatedly ... yet he STILL keeps the tie on! Hmm ...

Perhaps Cindy is gone now, but "the Scarf" continues to skip through time about Dan's neck!

Cindy's Scarf is dead! Long live Daniel's tie!

#379. Posted by: ealgumby at February 4, 2009 8:27 PM

@Cecil's recap, posts #33, #44, #55, #96, #132, #213, #227, #231, #353, #360, #361, #363, #370 and all future postings including the acronym "JWTB"

As mac's substitute reviewer on Feb 11, I gotta admit I'm really starting to feel the pressure of not missing out on a subtle clue to that week's episode's titled "This Place Is Death"

#380. Posted by: vacc at February 4, 2009 8:58 PM

@freckles/373: Just high on life! (and my Super Bowl championship!)

@LostedIt/376: Oh, yeah, I remember the Bobby routine!

Anyone else watching the enhanced episode? Maybe we should start live-blogging them. Not that we haven't covered everything already. I can't wait to see what's written on the side of the bomb.

@ealgumby/379: Scarfy can't be Faraday's tie (or dead), because she's currently off-island wrapped lovingly round Desmond's sexy neck. I'm convinced Penny has to pry her off each night and lock her in the closet or she'd be sleeping with him. I know I would be.

I think Faraday's tie has powers of its own. Perhaps not an omniscient being like Scarfy, but closer to a secret weapon like Ben's baton. Maybe he'll use it to stopper-up Jughead's leak.


I know this is an unanswerable question, but why can't Theresa control her time-traveling when her sister could obviously be her constant? Standing right next to her? Hello!

At this end of this little show, I don't require a master's thesis on time-travel, just some simple rules that make sense. Darleton better deliver.

#381. Posted by: Clementine at February 4, 2009 8:58 PM

vacc's back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

1 minute and counting...

#382. Posted by: Clementine at February 4, 2009 9:00 PM

Just an aside as we move toward the next epi ... Daniel recommends encasing the nuke JH within lead or concrete ... not a good idea for a leaking nuke!

One would want a neutron absorbing material to encase the bomb, like cadmium or gadolinium, to prevent a run-away critical reaction ... NOT lead, or even concrete, with its slight percentage of U in the mix, to prevent an "accidental" detonation, if that was the goal.

#383. Posted by: ealgumby at February 4, 2009 9:04 PM

@clementine - ah yes, the best high of all--VICTORY! And ARRRGGGH! Many minutes to wait here in Cali!

Good catch on Theresa's sister. Why can't she be the constant? A plothole!

@ealgumby - had to hold on to my skull pretty tight to keep my head from spinnnnning while reading your posts. What flights of imagination! I was thinking the same thing, about the "ghosts" being time-skipping people. And the rest? BRB while I stuff my nose with cotton...

#384. Posted by: freckles at February 4, 2009 9:20 PM

So tonight's episode was AMAZING. But I never posted the comment I wanted to like three days ago, so here I go now.

@ Jiggy - 206
"Maybe RA is Jacob (ie Locke = Bentham). Ra can't have direct contact with himself, so he needs a "leader" to speak with Jacob/future RA."

I actually really like this theory. Seems very possible. It would also make everything else make a lot more sense.

@ meg - 280
"oh, and miss i heart benlinusXX....I am giving him to you because my love has now gone elsewhere. I will miss our arguments over which part of mr. bugeye we will keep....but alas, I am bowing out. Treat him well."

Well congratulations on giving your love to someone else! I guess it was the better for both of us. Now I can have Ben all to myself, but yes, I will also miss our arguments over him. He has such beautiful eyes... and now they are all mine! Woot woot! =]

@ boozy - 294
"Never noticed Jack's heavy breathing. Sounds like someone is a bit anal..."

I don't understand how you choose to add in your little random remarks. I won't lie, they're somewhat entertaining... but still.

Sometimes it's not just "heavy breathing", it's just the way he breathes that I hate. I don't know how to explain it, but it's very annoying.

@ ealgumby - 299
I agree, it seems like you do have a lot of time on your hands. But I love it because everything you write is very insightful. Nice thought process I guess.

@ lost2theworld - 318
"I must say that after a lot of consideration I am throwing my hat in the ring with you. I rewatched Ben's introduction to the show in season 2 and...he is the best character ever. Although Sawyer deserves his due credit in the eye candy/one-liner department, Ben's character is just evilly delicious."

He is amazingly awesome and fantabulous! BUT he's all mine now, so back off. =]

... I appreciate the thought though. Glad you respect him!

@ LostedIt - 329
"ilovebenjaminlinusxx, it's ok, Jack's just an character, performed by an actor, breathe, oh no wait actually forget the breathing part, count to 10, look away from the screen, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..."

...Haha. Nice one.

Just to clear up things, it's Matthew Fox AND Jack Shephard that I strongly dislike.
1. Matthew Fox's breathing
2. Jack's character
3. Jack's annoying head nodds when he thinks he's right or saying "everything is going to be okay"
4. When Jack says, "I can fix it" or, "it's my responsibilty", or "I did this"
5. When Jack thinks everyone loves him
6. When Jack does that creepy stare thing

... and much more but I don't feel like thinking about it right now because all of these things make me very mad.

@ BunnyLover - 335
"I lost 30 lbs of stomach fat in 8 weeks by obeying this 1 rule."

Yeah that thing is mad annoying. I didn't even know it was possible to have 30 lbs of belly fat.

@ ealgumby - 341
=[ --> =]
=( --> =)
:( --> :)
:[ --> :]

... I couldn't decide which ones I liked best. =]

#385. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 4, 2009 10:36 PM

AHHHHHHHhhhhhhh!!!! I'm still stuck in the office dealing with server issues and now all of you are talking about the episode that I've missed!

ARRRHRHRRHRHH!!!!!!! I'm not going to be done here until like 2-3am at this point and then I've got to drive home and I'll be too tired to watch anything and I'll have to wake up and go right back to work again.

Ok, I've got an easy solution here. Everyone stop talking about the latest episode. Shhhhhh!!!! No more posting! If nobody talks about anything we'll never get to the monster at the end of this book. (Anyone remember that book? I used to love it as a kid and now I read it to my own kids!) Now everybody just wait here and talk about old news and I'll let you know when I get to watching it. Ok? Cool. You guys are the best!

Yah, if I could get away with that I'd be a miracle worker. Pay no attention to the foaming-mouthed nose-bleeding wide-eyed lunatic in the corner over there. He's just missing his constant...DOSE OF LOST!!!!!!!!!

#386. Posted by: LostedIt at February 4, 2009 11:09 PM

Just watching the Jughead repeat with the notes on the bottom of the screen. Guess what one of their very informative notes said: JWTB! One of the funniest moments in Lost ever, thanks to this blog.

#387. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 4, 2009 11:43 PM

Just watched again and realized how Faraday saw the bleeding and then went to knock on desmonds door.

I think he didnt want to get the bleeding as well and wanted desmond to be his constant.

Faraday is a prick...

#388. Posted by: Uri at February 5, 2009 6:43 PM

havent watched the new this week;s epi yet.....

but i was thinking.... Widmore has been looking for the island for 20 years. Eloise knows how to use the pendelum to find the island. Widmore has Eloise;s contact information. Why didn;t widmore just ask Eloise to find the island for him?

#389. Posted by: Skipper at February 7, 2009 7:16 AM

@389 Skipper wondered:

>Widmore has been looking for the island for 20 years. Eloise knows how to use the pendelum to find the island. Widmore has Eloise's contact information. Why didn't widmore just ask Eloise to find the island for him?

Remember, it's only our speuclation that Mrs. Hawking = Eloise = Daniel's mom. It may turn out to be so, but not necesarily.

#390. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 9, 2009 9:54 AM

5-3 Jughead

Time flashes, Frosties
Losties, struggle with change and,
Jughead was the bomb.

Des searches Oxford
To keep a promise, hoping,
Can his friends be saved?

#391. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 10, 2009 5:54 PM

  1. If your post contains spoilers -- or even hints at spoilers -- add ***** SPOILERS ***** to the top of your comment.
  2. Your post will NOT immediately show up if you post any URLs. Because of ongoing spam issues, I need to manually approve comments that include links. This sucks, but it's the only solution at this time.
  3. Super-long URLs screw up the page. If you post one of these, people will get very angry at you and really, no one wants that. The solution is easy. Go to and create a mini URL.
  4. Do not post under multiple identities and then have inane conversations with yourself. This kind of nonsense will get you banned from the blog.
  5. Do not post in ALL CAPS FOR YOUR ENTIRE POST. In netiquette, all caps suggests you're screaming. In etiquette, it's lame. All-caps posts will be deleted.
  6. Please scan through previous posts to see if someone has already addressed your theory or comment.

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