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Lost Reviews and News

Key Points from "This Place Is Death"

Season 5, Episode 5
Episode Air Date: 02/11/09

Point 1
Danielle

Jin

Smokey

Montand

The Temple

Robert
Jin's Excellent Adventure

At last... we get Rousseau's backstory! However, much in the same way Bill and Ted gathered info for their history report,. key Island events are witnessed through the eyes of our time traveling characters. For the most part, things unfold as Danielle recounted to Sayid in Season 1. Here's what we learn through Jin's encounter with Danielle's team
  • The team left Tahiti on November 15, 1988. From what Rousseau told Sayid, they crashed on the Island tree days later. They pick up the broadcast signal - a voice repeating those familiar numbers 4-8-15-16-23-42 , and enlist Jin's help in locating the source of the transmission - the radio tower. Jin agrees to go along, since from there he could find his way back to the camp.
  • Jin's still holding out hope that the helicopter with Sun made it safely back to the island. He's also clinging to the belief that the arrival of a woman named Danielle Rousseau on this Island is just another in a long string of bizarre coincidences..
  • On the way to the tower, one of their team, Nadine, goes missing. As they turn to look for her, there is a rumble in the jungle - a sound that's very familiar to Jin...Monster! Smokey is on hand to greet the new arrivals, and quickly ends their frantic search for Nadine by tossing her lifeless body from the treetops.
  • Everyone heeds Jin's order to run, but Smokey grabs a hold of Montand and begins to drag him into a hole just as he did with Locke. A tug of war ensues, but as no one thought to bring along dynamite, this round goes to Smokey. He tears Montand away from his arm and into the hole. When Montand calls out moments later for assistance, everyone wants to lend a hand, but Jin restrains Danielle from following her team in going after Montand.
  • Jin disappears before Rousseau's eyes in a glowing time swoosh. He finds himself alone, save for Montand's decaying arm.
  • The pit that Smokey dragged Montand into is in front of a structure we haven't seen yet, with strange markings similar to what appeared in the donkey wheel cave beneath the orchid. We learn that this is the Temple.
  • Jin makes his way back to the beach where Rousseau's team set up camp, and finds things in disarray. He sees Danielle's music box and a pair of not so fresh corpses, then witnesses the final exchange between Danielle and her beloved Robert. With rifles drawn on each other, Rousseau accuses him of being made sick by the monster. Robert claims that it is not a monster, but a security system guarding the temple. He fires on Danielle first but the gun doesn't go off - Rousseau had already started to develop her jungle smarts, and removed the firing pin. This would prove useful years later when Sayid tries to shoot her with the very same gun.
  • Bang! Danielle's gun works! The last of her team is dead. She then sees Jin looking on, and believes anyone who just disappears into thin air should also be shot. Fortunately for Jin, disappearing into thin air can help prevent being shot.
  • Jin emerges from this latest time warp to find another gun is trained on him. This one belongs to Sawyer, and the moment of tension and confusion quickly turns into a teary reunion.
  • Daniel Faraday looks on as Jin gets a refresher course in time travel from the man who taught him the all important phrases "I'm sorry.", "You were right." and "Those pants don't make you look fat."
 
Point 2
Charlotte

Sawyer

Juliet
 
This place is death
Fortunately for me, the meaning behind the title of this week's episode was easier to decipher than Jughead. Charlotte's condition worsens as the time shifts become swift and sudden, until she becomes the next major character to die. But as a parting gift, we learn some interesting things from Charlotte.
  • As she regains her awareness following another time shift, she stares intently at Jin, mutters something in Klingon, and warns Jin "Don't let them bring her back no matter what". She then delivers the most foreboding words of Season 5 to date - "This place is Death" 
  • Daniel stays behind with Charlotte, who is unable to trek to the Orchid. But as the Orchid may not even exist depending on when they get there,. Charlotte gives Locke a Plan B - look for a well. .
  • Charlotte confirms that she grew up on the Island, and left with her mother, but not her father, and was told by her mother that the Island was all in her imagination, This led her to becoming an anthropologist hell-bent on finding the island.
  • Why is she sharing this with Faraday? Because she just remembered being approached as a child by a crazy man who scared her and warned her to leave the Island and never return or she would die.
  • Crazy, scary man = Faraday. . 
Point 3
Locke Sawyer Miles Christian The Donkey Wheel
When Locke and team reach the Orchid station, they're relieved to find it standing. But another swoosh takes them to a time before it was built, so they follow plan B and locate the well. 

Before Locke can climb down the rope, Jin demands that Locke promise not to recruit Sun or Ji Yeon to return to the Island. He instructs Locke to tell Sun he's dead, and hands over his wedding ring to present as evidence. Ben would later use this ring as evidence to convince Sun Jin is alive.

As Locke descends into the well, another time swoosh... and no more well. Sawyer, Miles, and Juliet are standing over a patch of dirt, presuming Locke to be buried alive.

Lock meanwhile, falls into the same chamber where Ben spent his final moments on the Island - fracturing one of his legs in the process. He quickly learns he's not alone - Christian Sheppard is there to guide Locke. Even more, he tells Locke that he was supposed to move the Island - not Ben. Christian gives Locke the details of his mission - to convince everyone who left the Island to return, and find Eloise Hawking who will tell them how to get back.

Locke limps to the donkey wheel, which at this point in time is not iced over, and gives it a nudge. With that broken leg of his, I hope he's as lucky as Ben, and finds a horse when he lands in Tunisia. 

Point 4
Island Island Island Island Off the Island

Things pick up from last week, after Ben and Kate are reunited at slip 23. After speaking to Ji-Yeon, Sun steps out of the car intent on killing Ben as revenge for Jin's death. Ben convinces Sun to grant him a stay of execution so he can prove that Jin is alive.

The Oceanic 6 - minus Hurley and Sayid - take a ride with Ben to see Eloise Hawking.  Ben's indignance over everyone's lack of appreciation for all he's done for them was clearly the highlight of the off Island story. 

Desmond's arrival at the church confirmed what many of us have already suspected - Ms. Hawking is Faraday's mom.

Though I've had several pet rats in my lifetime, it never occurred to me to name one after my mom.

Ben shows the type of deference to Eloise Hawking that he had only shown for Jacob in explaining his failure to reunite everyone. For now, Hawking seems prepared to move forward with present company.

Besides the reveal that Ms. Hawking is Faraday's mom, I don't see how Desmond's arrival changes anything. Seems like the problem is being worked on already.

Island Wrapping up
  • Best Line: "Just Klingon" Charlotte responds when Faraday asks if she speaks any other languages,
  • 2nd Best:  "I didn't account for traffic" - Ben explaining to Sun why their drive took more than half an hour.
  • 3rd Best: "I think you can let go of that now", Miles tells Sawyer who's still holding the rope after the well disappeared.
     

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"316" -- The trail of breadcrumbs leading back to the island is discovered. Airs Wednesday, Feb. 18, 2009 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Vacc. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

Posted by Mac Slocum on February 11, 2009 11:30 PM |




FIRST!!!!

Great episode of Lost. To me, the best yet this season.

#1. Posted by: Kid at February 12, 2009 5:09 AM

Long time lurker, occassional poster. Mind still taking in all that happened. Better episode than last week. You can tell that these episodes are leading up to the big tell. I'm really struggling to understand the whole time traveling process. When Charlotte told Daniel that she remember the scary man and what he told her. Will we see this play out in another episode? Something like the 'ripple' effect? And since she did return and died, does this also means that you can't change events?

#2. Posted by: Landa at February 12, 2009 5:34 AM

Prior to this season TPTB made a promise: that it would be like a new season every five or six episodes.

They've been true to their word.

And then some.

This episode felt like a season finale. More than that, I think Darlton made this as a treat for the obsessive fans. Rousseau's backstory can only be fully appreciated by those who remember obscure lost arm references back from Season 1.

Any appearance of Smokey is welcome (especially when returning to tree uprooting form!) - but as a Temple guard dog? THE Temple! I want to see inside!

And off-Island. Eloise is pulling a Blues Brothers routine bringing everyone back together. How will she use them to find the Island? Holding hands in a seance around the cold body of Locke?

Speaking of Locke-

You know what, I won't write any more. You all know what I'm going to say, because it was all so frigging fantastic. Frankly I'm too excited to make much sense.

The worst thing is that next week I will be watching the episode on my laptop while on a train. If the episode is half as good as this one then I know for a fact that I'll look like a complete idiot with a face that jumps from scared to happy to sad to excited and back again every minute.

To TPTB: Congratulations, this was awesome.

#3. Posted by: Daniel Denial at February 12, 2009 6:13 AM

Great, Great Episode!! And of course time flashes before Christian finishes telling Locke who his son is. Love seeing Smokey again and the reveal of the Temple was great.

#4. Posted by: mike at February 12, 2009 6:24 AM

Bom dia! Greetings from Lisboa!

I’ve been a reader of Mac (and Cecil’s, and Vacc’s…) reviews “like forever, dude”. This is the best complement to the show. And Lost is the best show on earth.

Here some of my own crazy thoughts:

1. Miles is, definitely, Dr. Marvin Candle’s son coming back to the Island with the excuse of revenge (since Ben destroyed all his father work) but just looking for the 3,2 millions he needs.

2. Charlotte is the real Ben’s daughter!
My wife is finally turning into a Lost fanatic! We reviewed season 4 so she can be introduced to season 5 and she point out a few very interesting things. When I was telling her “Acho que a Charlotte é a verdadeira filha do…” … oops… “I believe Charlotte is the real daughter of….” She promptly said “Ben! She has her father’s eyes”. I nod my head in agreement thinking of all the trouble Lost producers had to find an actress with those eyes. Not as buggy, of course, but with the same freaking light water blue. I know, I know… women :)

«« As you might notice, I don’t live in the US, so I haven’t seen this episode yet. (And I’m reading the blog already?? I know. Couldn’t help it) But if Charlotte is really Ben’s daughter, why is she dying? After all her mother Annie went through to get her out of the Island and away from her father?? Humm… »»

3. There’s a few stuff happening against rule number 1 of time traveling that says you can’t change the past.

The compass – where did it come from after all? FOOM! Richard gives it to Locke that gives it back to Richard so he can give it to Locke in the first place!

Daniel Faraday – He only gets its time travelling device to work, by setting it to 2.342 and oscillating @ 11 Hz, because Desmond Hume told him to, after receiving this information from… tcharam! Daniel Faraday himself. FOOM :)
If he hadn’t receive this information from himself he would never succeeded in the time travelling business, thus never being financed by Charles Widmore nor hired by Abadon (I still didn’t decide if they’re working together) to go along in the field trip to La Isla Bonita del Jacob.

4. I believe Aaron & Ji Yeon will play a major role somehow in the story’s end. They will end up together being thrown to the past, founding the whole Other society (maybe Adam and Eve?).

There’s more but this post it’s getting to big and I hate big posts!

Namasté (which actually means “The Spark of Divinity that lives in Me acknowledges and greets the spark of Divinity That lives in You”… We’re all One and One with the All Mighty)

Looking forward for regulars’ posts. Come on! Wake up! I’m at work and need something to do :)

#5. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 12, 2009 6:28 AM

@Vacc: "I don't see how Desmond's arrival changes anything."

The problem is Penny being around. Close enough to be in danger. Ben promised Charles that he would kill her. And we all know that Ben's plans never fail.

I sure hope this one will fail. Desmond and Penny's love story is beautiful. they really deserve a good chance to be happy.

#6. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 12, 2009 6:50 AM

Another best line was when Sawyer (I think it was) told Miles to translate to Jin. Miles just gives them 'the look" and says, "He's Korean, I'm from Encino".

#7. Posted by: sandivon at February 12, 2009 7:20 AM

Loved the episode.
Nearly jumped out of my chair when my sattelite lost the signal and I missed the minute after Jin told Locke not to bring Sun back and then suddenly Sawyer is digging in the dirt.
Favorite line was when Juliet said she was glad the orchid was still there and then whoosh it was gone and Sawyer looked at her and said "you just had to say something!"
I appreciated seeing Rouseau's backstory because it confirmed that she had not lied to Sayid about her past.
Loved Ben's little "screaming at the kids in the back of the car" scene. Sun should have said "are we there yet? " and he should have said "we get there when we get there!!!"
Also loved when Christian Shepherd told Locke he was an idiot for consistently believing anything Ben says.
When Locke realized he was to be the "Sacrifice" he truely became the leader. It was a great moment...and why could Christian not help? He could hold up the lamp!!
Can't wait to see how they get Kate, Sayid and Hurley on board next week.

#8. Posted by: weepict at February 12, 2009 7:49 AM

Am I the only one who thinks charles Widmore is charlottes father? remember he was on the island after all, plus ben tried to kill charlotte in season four, not very father-like even for ben.

Strangely that would kind of go full circle as ben said he'd kill widmores daughter who we assumed, would be penny.

I have no real evidence other than a hunch though,

#9. Posted by: Daryl at February 12, 2009 7:53 AM

We have known for a while now that Smokey is supposed to be a security system for the island, but did we know it originates from The Temple? I am intrigued about what happend when Rousseau's team went down there...It seems as though they went in as "good" people and returned as pretty "bad". What were they taught in The Temple? Does this mean anyone who has been there shouldn't be trusted? It had me going back to that list in the earlier season (1? 2?) and who Smokey seemed to "have it in for"...Rousseau always said her team succumed to some sort of sickness...I assumed she meant some sort of malaise, but it seems the sickness might have been in the head...

How ironic that it must be Locke to sacrifice himself for the sake of the island when he has been the one who unconditionally believed in it the whole time. Further confirmation that he is THE man of faith by admitting while it makes empirical sense to go back to The Orchid, it leaves the science behind to bring the O6 back...LOCKE ROCKS.

I was thinking maybe Faraday is Charlotte's dad...who knows. It's awfully hard to keep track of who MAY be related to who any more...

#10. Posted by: Vikki at February 12, 2009 8:15 AM

Great job, vacc!

The time-travel conundrum strikes again. What stopped Rousseau from going into Smokey’s bolt-hole the first time - before the time-traveling Jin arrived?

Anybody else think Montand’s voice coming from Smokey’s layer was really Smokey? (like when Smokey was Eko’s brother)

The scene where Danielle’s beloved husband raises his gun to kill her perfectly completes her backstory. When you suffer that kind of betrayal, of course you go crazy, live in a jungle, and trust no one!

My darn tv station was running weather alerts on the bottom of the screen through the whole show, so I missed most of the subtitles. And, of course, everybody was speaking a foreign language! Ugh! Have to catch it again online.

One minute Jin is speaking perfectly good English, and the next he’s demanding Charlotte translate. I think the point was for us to remember that Charlotte speaks Korean. And indication that she is the daughter of the Changs or just a red herring?

Charlotte’s eyes were all kinda freaky. And how romantic of her to tell Dan about the crazy, scary man who she thinks is him. But don’t worry, Dan, I’m sure she finds you sexy now. Time-travel conundrum again: If Dan warned little Charlotte during some future skipping, how did this Charlotte remember it, if it hasn’t happened yet?

I think Christian couldn’t help Locke walk, because he is a manifestation of Jacob. Maybe he can’t continue to project the image of another if he has physical contact with someone. Just a thought.

Ben looked very surprised when Des mentioned Faraday’s mum. Maybe he just realized Mrs. Hawking is keeping secrets from him (including a current or past relationship with Widmore.)

And one final thought:

How come Ji Yeon doesn't have to go back - does being a fetus exempt you from island destiny?

#11. Posted by: Clementine at February 12, 2009 8:21 AM

Or maybe Christian isn't a manisfestation of Jacob, but he didn't want Locke to be close enough to get a whiff of his animated corpse. A glimpse into Locke's own future.

When Christian was talking about Locke making the ultimate sacrifice, maybe he was also talking about himself. Did Christian die in order to get Jack to the island in the first place?

#12. Posted by: Clementine at February 12, 2009 8:27 AM

Christian tells Locke: Don't trust Ben. But Christian is also telling Locke to do precisely the same thing that Ben is telling Locke to do. If Ben & Christian are on opposing sides, why are they both trying to do the exact same thing...get the 6 back to the island, using the exact same method...Eloise Hawking.

I do not trust Christian. I don't think he is "Jacob". I think Locke is more used than "chosen"; used specifically because he is easily manipulated.

Who is Christian's son? Leaving it hanging like that seems terribly anti-climatic if the son he was speaking of is Jack.

If Mr. Rousseau says the smoke monster is a security device...I don't believe it. It killed Nadine, snatched Montand ripping his body from his arm, and yet Mr Rousseau goes into the hole and comes back out OK with Smokie but prepared to shoot his pregnant wife! It was like...Come to ze dark side Danielle, we have cookies.

I loved Ben scolding Jack & Sun!

gotta go to work. I look forward to reaing everyone's insights later.

#13. Posted by: undaunted at February 12, 2009 8:30 AM

Long time lurker, delurking to note something related to point 4 - the rest of the Oceanic 6 don't go with Ben as Kate takes off with Aaron before that - correct? I assume Kate's going to end up back on the island - no fun if she isn't - so I wonder how they get back together?

#14. Posted by: Shannon at February 12, 2009 8:57 AM

@Mac: "Smokey... tears Montand away from his arm and into the hole. When Montand calls out moments later for assistance, everyone wants to "*lend a hand*"

Nice!

#15. Posted by: Neon Leon at February 12, 2009 9:00 AM


Great episode and great synopsis, vacc. This ep MORE than made up for the slow previous episode last week.

One correction to your review:

“The Oceanic 6 - minus Hurley and Sayid - take a ride with Ben to see Eloise Hawking. “ Actually, ALSO minus Kate and Aaron. (But I now notice that shannon has already noted that in her posting.)

Some interesting speculation about Charlotte’s father . . some think Ben, some think Widmore. Chang seems to have fallen out of contention for the moment. And thanks to Daniel Denial - I had COMPLETELY forgotten about the arm that Vincent had carried into camp in the first season. Obviously, a french arm.

It was good to FINALLY see the “Temple”. And Jin’s “excellent adventure” was just too cool for words. However, it does seem that the explosion has increased Jin’s english vocabulary tenfold, at least.

I can hardly wait for next week , , ,or for that matter, the rest of the season.

#16. Posted by: davidrh at February 12, 2009 9:02 AM

Overall very solid episode. I am curious to see if Desmond and Mrs. Hawking will discuss the Jewelry shop Incident regarding the engagement ring.

The fact that Charlotte speaks Korean should prove that she was the blue eyed baby that DR. Chang was feeding during the season premier.

Did anyone notice that the smoke monster seemed a lot more mechanical this time around. A ton of clicking and grinding sounds while it was playing a good old game of tug of war with the frenchies and Jin.

I ll be back with more later!!

#17. Posted by: Michaelmvp at February 12, 2009 9:06 AM

I'm starting to get the feeling that Ben is a necessary evil for getting the island back on track, kind of like Darth Vader was necessary to "...bring balance to the Force..."

But I also think that Widmore is a baddie who wants to use the island for his own nefarious purposes.

And I am also convinced that Charlotte is Ben and Annie's (didn't Annie have red hair?) daughter, that Ben stole Alex to replace his little Charlotte who got taken by Mommy in the ultimate nasty fate-of-the-universe-hangs-in-the-balance space-time-continuum-shredding custody battle, and that Daniel met Wee Charlotte when he was "working" on the construction of the Orchid station.

Best quote: Miles to Sawyer - You can let go of that now.

Second Best Quote: Jin to Rousseau's party - Run!

#18. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 12, 2009 9:14 AM

Someone noted in last week's comments that Claire's Mom had several moles on her face when she met Jack at his father's/her lover's funeral. When Jack goes to see her at the motel, she definately looks different, and no moles. Could she have actually been an older Claire??? They did look alike. Or, did the actress simply have some cosmetic surgery.

Gee.. the things that bug me...

Next - Did anyone think that John stopped the time skipping after he got the FDW (unfrozen this time) back on it's axis? It looked like a record skipping until Locke settled it in place. Can't remember if anything VROOMED after that. I have to watch the whole episode again tonight, as there was a MAJOR basketball game on last night (Duke vs. Carolina) and my husband claimed rights to the TV. So we "hopped" back and forth.

Have a great day reading posts everyone, and I'll check back in after I get to see the whole, uninterupted version.

#19. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 12, 2009 9:17 AM

→ 16. Posted by: davidrh at February 12, 2009 9:02 AM

And thanks to Daniel Denial - I had COMPLETELY forgotten about the arm that Vincent had carried into camp in the first season. Obviously, a french arm.

I thought the arm Vincent carried in to camp was Ben's fathers. The arm had the key to the VW bus

#20. Posted by: BTLY at February 12, 2009 9:21 AM

Oh, @ davidrh - I thought the arm Vincent brought back was that of "Roger Workman" - Ben's father in the van. ???

#21. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 12, 2009 9:21 AM

reenactment of me and my brother watching LOST last night:
ME: Whoa dude, Smokey is dragging that fool into a hole like he did Locke.
HIM:I hope he dies.
ME: He'll survive. Look how everyone is working together to hold his arm and save him from being dragged into the hole.
HIM: That's not realistic, his arm should just rip off.
ME:It sounds like Smokey is tightening.................................
RIIIIIIP!!!!!!!
BOTH: AMAZING!!!!


:)

some finer classier points:
as to the speculation of how, due to the time travel, Rousseau was kept from following her team into Smokey's Underground Disco Club previous to Jin's Excellent Adventure and Charlotte all of a sudden remembered Creepy Dan warning her as a child to stay off the island, I offer you this simple explanation: because of the time travel, Jin was always there to warn Rousseau to stay out of the hole. Jin didn't change the past because this has always been the past. I'm guessing Rousseau never remembered Jin 16 years later because she had gone completely insane and was convinced others were already on the island so she just forgot who he was. And Charlotte, thank God she died, hopefully God gives her a piece of chocolate before dinner, didn't remember Dan up to that point because as Dan preached, "You can't change the past..." he tried but I guess her mind suppressed the memory until she was at the point of no return. It's obvious there will be another FOOM where Daniel meets up with a red headed kid and warns her only to end with the same result.

Also, Christian not helping Locke i think is either one of these two things: He wanted Locke to not rely on him and use his own power and determination to "push" the donkey wheel. Or.....Christian is a manifestation of some kind (Jacob or something else) and if he comes into physical contact something bad happens. Also.....Christain did tell Locke to give the wheel a "push" but i distinctly recall the Balded Wonder standing behind a section of the wheel and "pulling" it. Maybe the wheel works like one of those doors that only work one way or the other. Further implications? Probably not, it makes sense to "pull" it after Ben "pushed" it and started all this mess, but it is a thought.

Not sure if any of that made sense, I'm just stoked that this season is kicking serious ass. Lovely episode last night.

#22. Posted by: grimgravyX at February 12, 2009 9:22 AM

@ BTLY - wow, we posted the same thing as the same time. (Then it MUST be true!)

#23. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 12, 2009 9:22 AM

good morning!! this was a great episode!! just a few thoughts:
-as slready mentioned, ben being surprised by the news that eloise was daniels mom. why didnt she mention it to ben and why didnt ben know?? he seems to know EVERYTHING else, why not that??
-who in their right mind would enter into an unknown place that is the lair of a monster who kills, has incredible strength and just ripped the arm off of someone right before your eyes?? i dont care if how sweet and peachy you sound after having your entire arm ripped away, i aint coming after ya. :)
-@preacheronun, i like the idea of charlotte being ben's daughter. might be why he decided to "adopt" alex.
-why hasnt locke's nose started bleeding?

#24. Posted by: tiffani at February 12, 2009 9:23 AM

Is it possible there are two smoke monsters? When Locke was being pulled down the hole in season 1, that hole was out in the middle of the jungle - assumingly nowhere near the Temple (or else they'd know where the Temple was).

Then Robert said that this monster was the security system for the Temple. Is there one that stays at the Temple and one that roams the jungle?

I also thought that Montand calling back up for help was actually the Smoke Monster (like when it appeared as Yemi).

#25. Posted by: GFish at February 12, 2009 9:24 AM

What a wonderful show last night. Great recap Vacc. Random thoughts:

1. Many people have been contemplating why Danielle had never said anything before about meeting Jin when she first met the camp. I have a theory. Faraday said that no matter what you do, you couldn't change the past. I will have a way of correcting itself. I believe that when the future group interacts with the past, it doesn't change what happens, but changes their memories of how it happened in the present (i.e. Faraday meeting Desmond never changed the events, but rather gave him a memory in the present). The reason we aren't finding out about Jin is that Rousseau is dead. I realize this is about as confusing as the show, but it's at least plausible, no?

2. I think everyone chosen for the "Freighter" team has back story with the island. When Naomi confronted Abaddon about picking such a shotty "team", he told her they were all picked for a specific reason. We all assumed that it was for their professions, but it seems it was for other reasons. If this were indeed true, that would also mean that Frank (the helicopter pilot) has back-story with the island as well. Only because he was chosen by Abaddon to be on the team.

3. Locke's legs must be on giant scar. This poor guy has had more leg injuries since he could walk again than Sawyers had nicknames for people. It's getting to the point where the three things I look for in an episode are Hurley saying dude, Sawyer saying son of a bitch, and Locke injuring his legs.

4. Smokey pulled Locke into a similar hole in season one, and Locke came out a bigger islander advocate than ever. Is this some sort of strange Smokey recruiting technique?

5. Did anyone else notice that when Locke saw the wheel, it was "skipping", as Faraday explained. Does this mean now that Locke put it back on its axis, that the time shifts stop?

6. Why isn't Faraday's nose bleeding? He's been on the island before, and if he knew how to stop it, why wouldn't he tell anyone? I know he said that it's relative to the amount of time spent on the island, but he's HAD to have been there at least as long as Sawyer. I think all of his "information" on the Dharma initiative came from first hand work experience.

#26. Posted by: The Other Other at February 12, 2009 9:24 AM

Hello All,

Excellent recap. I do believe that Locke may have stabilized the island with his turning of the melted donkey wheel. That is why Hawking et al will be able to locate the island next week. However, it appears that the stabilization is not permanent.

Also, the anagram on Ben's van for Canton - Ranier is interesting. I don't want to spoil anyone, so everyone can check it out for themselves. I think it plays into the the Christian Sheppard - John Locke -Jacob dynamic.

"I'm from Encino" was the best line in my humble opinion.

#27. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at February 12, 2009 9:26 AM

Great epsiode!!! I found it hard to settle down and go sleep. Thanks vacc for a nice review!!

First of all, what if Daniel is "Jacob"? He seems to have been on that island (time jumping or not) since the beginning. He seemed bewildered when Charlotte told him that he was the crazy man that told her to never come back. Also, did Charlotte ever look creepier than she did last night...?

The subtitles were curious to me... In both the Korean and the French translations, some of them were in italics. I will have to re-watch to see if there is some correlation to the translations in italics...some hidden clue to something. Sure unsure about most of what I see/notice in this show.

Nosebleeds...so, the only ones that are on the island without any nosebleeds are Daniel, Locke and Jin. Possible reasons for these three to be immuned to the nosebleeds...Jin just got there so maybe he needs to time jump some more to catch up. Locke is the leader and the man. Daniel is Jacob...?

#28. Posted by: boodle at February 12, 2009 9:29 AM

Ok, lots to say, little time to do it.

1) People going into the temple don't come out the same. Obviously it did something to them the moment they went "down the rabbit hole". The Temple is likely going to hold a lot more sway in the story line going forward. Hey, didn't Ben tell the rest of the Others to go to the temple at one point?
2) @Vacc - two corrections: Kate did not go with Ben and Co to see Eloise. Also, Jin mentioned only Sun, not their child. At the point that he tells Locke not to bring her back Sun still hasn't given birth to Ji Yeon (or however you spell that name) as far as he knows.
3) I think Locke is once again being set up to do the grunt work. Christian basically said Locke would need to be a sacrifice. A little too heavy with the bible references if you ask me. Obviously this is supposed to be referring to some passage in there.
4) Charlotte could very well be Ben's or Widmore's child. There really is no good evidence yet pointing in either direction. We'll have to wait and see which, if any, she is.
5) Ben is a sleazebag manipulating piece of dirt with an "I did everything for you" delusion.
6) Rousseau's story is truly tragic and heartbreaking, given that we know how it all ends. She had to kill her own husband and has to deliver her own child alone on a horrible, unfriendly island with a smoke monster, gets her child taken away from her and gets left alone to fend for herself and tries for 16 years to find her daughter, finally gets reunited with her and dies soon thereafter, then still gets no satisfaction in death because her daughter gets killed shortly after her. BTW, the actress playing young Rousseau is kinda cute. Too bad we'll probably not get to see more of her.
7) Can someone find a translation of what Charlotte said in Klingon? Likely the same as she ended up saying in English immediately afterwards but it would be interesting to know for sure.
8) I get the feeling that Sun may actually go back to the island and leave her child behind. Not good parenting skills!

So much more to say. Need to actually get some work done around here first...

#29. Posted by: LostedIt at February 12, 2009 9:29 AM

@ 19 - BunnyLover

It appears we had the same idea about the wheel at the same time.

@ 25 - Gfish

Maybe Smokey gets around the island by traveling the underground island freeway. The holes could be the exits. It would make island travel much faster than trying to travel around all the trees.

#30. Posted by: The Other Other at February 12, 2009 9:32 AM

@ #26, Other Other...
"6. Why isn't Faraday's nose bleeding? He's been on the island before, and if he knew how to stop it, why wouldn't he tell anyone?"
We have no reason to think this isn't Daniel's first trip to the island... we saw him in "Dharma Time", but that could be a future time-leap we have not seen yet. And yes, his notebook is filled with Dharma info, but that doesn't mean he was on the island to collect that info. Plus, when we first meet Daniel after he jumped from the helicopter, he definitely gives the impression he's never been there ("The light doesn't seem to scatter just right").

#31. Posted by: scoosh at February 12, 2009 9:39 AM

@26: The Other Other - Regarding the donkey wheel skipping and Locke putting it back in place, I had the same thought. It was "off its axis" and he put it back on before pulling it to turn it. Shouldn't that have fixed it? Obviously not because the storyline goes on, but I thought that was the point of showing it skipping and him fixing it.

I thought some more about Charlotte and who would be her dad. I've ruled out Ben because when they meet that first time in the forest when the soldiers from the freighter were running rampant he proves that he knows both her and I think Miles by naming them and stating some things about their past. If that were his real daughter (as opposed to his adopted daughter Alex) you'd think he'd most DEFINITELY be all hugs and kisses (as much as Ben can do that) and having a family reunion right there and then. So with that being known, I'm ruling out Ben as being her dad. Anyone?

More soon.

#32. Posted by: LostedIt at February 12, 2009 9:43 AM

@boodle - I thought the same thing about the subtitles in italics. A purposeful mistranslation for some red herring action?

@scoosh and other other - perhaps Faraday's nose is not bleeding for the same reason Locke's is not - he is special. In what way we have yet to find out.

#33. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at February 12, 2009 9:47 AM

Best episode ever! I was like a kid on Christmas morning.

Poor Jin, talk about a bad week. He almost gets blown up on the freighter, wakes up in the middle to the ocean...in 1988, is part of a group that gets attacked by Smokey, reunites with his group only to find out that his wife is gone...and the hits just keep coming. I would say that kharma is evening the score with him for all the bad things he did for Mr. Paik.

And Sun...boy she's not playing the meek and mild card anymore. Ben almost got the wrath of that scorned woman! I loved it. I also loved Ben and his great slimey self saying, "if you knew everything I've done for you and your friends, you'd never stop thanking me..." Yeah, right. He should have been jumping up and down like a spoiled child. I don't know how people cannot think he's the best character on the show. I LOVE HIM! With deference to iloveben, of course.

I, too, believe that the significance of Des being there is that Penny's there too. I think there are things that we don't know about Penny. She is a Widmore after all. People are getting all sappy about the two of them but I think before the end that rug will be pulled out from under everyone. She is a Widmore and I think there is something evil up with dear Penny.

There was so much more to this episode but I'll stop for now. I hope all that were complaining after last week feel better. I think we are definitely to a point where we should all just hang on and enjoy the ride!

#34. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 12, 2009 9:50 AM

@ 28 boodle and 33 Thundarr -
When subtitles are in italics, it means the character speaking them is off screen. Commonly used in closed captioning for the deaf so they know it is not the character currently on screen that is speaking. Nothing spooky about it.

#35. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 12, 2009 9:53 AM

@ 28 & 33

I think the subtitles in italics were to show the people who weren't directly speaking on camara. The italics were used on Sun's mother while she was on the phone, and some of the Frenc team who were talking off the main focus of the camara.

#36. Posted by: The Other Other at February 12, 2009 9:54 AM

→ 33. @boodle & Thundarr The Barbarian

I think the translations in italics just let us know that someone else is speaking. One person is speaking French and when another one starts speaking they use italics to let us know that. I don't think there is any more to it than that.

#37. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 12, 2009 9:55 AM

@ 35 - BunnyLover

Bunny, quit reading my mind and posting at the exact same time! Lol.

#38. Posted by: The Other Other at February 12, 2009 9:55 AM

@36&36 - ah, I did not know that. Thanks for the insight.

#39. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at February 12, 2009 9:56 AM

@ TOO and L2TW - sure hope we haven't opened up a can of "Jughead was the bomb..."

#40. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 12, 2009 9:59 AM

Great episode (and review)!

Good point by Clementine about Ji Yeon not having to go back to the island. But more than that... what about Walt?!? WAAAAAAAAALT!!!!!! Certainly he should have to go back, no? Although Eloise seemed to reluctanctly accept that only Jack and Sun (and Locke) were gathered. Oh, and Desmond, too.
Also, anagram on the name of the carpet van: Canton-Rainier = Reincarnation. I may be late on that one - sorry if it's old news. (Oh, and the numbers add up to 108! Heh heh heh.)

#41. Posted by: bees at February 12, 2009 9:59 AM

@35, 36, 37

I thought that at first too...one of Sun's mom's subtitles were italics. But then on the beach...maybe Robert...his subtitle were italics. (It was some comment about "women"...) I do need to re-watch, but I believe italics were not only meant to dfferentiate the speakers...

#42. Posted by: boodle at February 12, 2009 10:03 AM

Do you guys remember when Charolette landed on the island in her parachute. She looks up and says, "I'm back."

Montag definitely was not screaming from inside the temple. He would've been in so much pain that getting out intelligible words would have been an act of jacob. Especially what we heard..."hey guys i'm hurt...please help me help me" yeah right, would be more like "ahhhh #$@! @ guuuuys my aahhhhhhhhh mmmmmmmyyy aa--rrrahhhhh" Definitely smoky trap.

#43. Posted by: Matts at February 12, 2009 10:03 AM

One more crazy thought from moi...

Regarding "This place is death" and the carpet van "Reincarnation" - I want to refer back to my comments from previous seasons where I, and many others, felt the Island was Purgatory... I know, I know, D&C said it wasn't, but they also said no time travel and this wasn't science fiction (I think). Anyway, I'm still in the boat that this is Purgartory and I'll stay there till Ben finally rots in h-e-l-l.

#44. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 12, 2009 10:04 AM

I thought Alex was Ben and Rousseau's daughter. How is Rousseau pregnant to the guy with her on the island?

#45. Posted by: Renee at February 12, 2009 10:05 AM

@35, 36, 37, either we've got someone here who is posting under multiple names or that's got to be the spookiest sequence of responses I've seen

#46. Posted by: LostedIt at February 12, 2009 10:06 AM

Some quick random thoughts/questions …

“Though I've had several pet rats in my lifetime, it never occurred to me to name one after my mom.” I assume that’s because you like your mom ... does Daniel like his? I dunno, she looks pretty damned creepy to me, especially in last night’s epi ... and what of her motives? ... methinks Eloise IS a rat!

@10/Vikki: Actually, it was Daniel who commented that science must be left behind to get O6 back ... I took that as throwing a bone to viewers (like many of us here) who have complained about the so-called “scientific basis” for the show creeping beyond the realm of plausible.

@15/Neon Leon: “everyone wants to ‘*lend a hand*’” ... Hmm ... “We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. We forge our tradition in the spirit of our ancestors. You have our gratitude. Now, let’s all give Dr. Klahn a hand!”

Many unanswered questions:
(1) Is there any significance to the phrase ”This place is death” beyond Charlotte’s quote?
(2) “When” is Locke when he moves the FDW? I took the rope being underground to show the time closer to current (i.e., 2008), after the well had been destroyed in the process of building the Orchid, but we didn’t see in the background if the Orchid was there.
(3) Why is the FDW only the DW, and not F?
(4) Why Christian, and not Jacob? Too soon (i.e. not S6 yet), perhaps? Any GOOD reason?
(5) Did Daniel cry when he found out 815 crashed, because he knew it would lead to Charlotte dying?
(6) What exactly happened to Rousseau’s team beneath the temple?
(7) For the umpteenth time ... what is smokey? TPTB have said he’s not nanotech (if we believe them ... kinda shaky record now on whether we should), but seems mechanical in some sense. Really weird idea I have been considering, but needs a lot more work ... does smokey exist in extra dimensions, and his “smoky” appearance is merely a three-dimensional projection/artifact of what he “really” is?
(8) What is the temple? How do the Others control smokey? Where were the Others when Rousseau et al went to the temple?
(9) Why does Charlotte speak Korean?
(10) Why did Sun show Kate the baby pic of Ji Yeon, when we saw her 3-yr old self in last night’s epi? Is Sun trying to protect Ji Yeon, by keeping her appearance a secret? Why?
(11) Finally ... exactly what are the rules for when “things” skip, and when they don’t. Sawyer held on to the rope in the well, and the rope skipped along with him, but not the rest of the well ... is there any consistency to this phenomenon, or just at the writers’ convenience?

#47. Posted by: ealgumby at February 12, 2009 10:08 AM

@45: Renee - Ben was DEFINITELY not Alex's father with Rousseau. Ben stole her from Rousseau within months after she was born and left Rousseau alone on the island to search for her daughter for the next 16 years. Not the kind of person that give you much room for sympathy/empathy, with apologies to ilovebenjaminlinusxx.

#48. Posted by: LostedIt at February 12, 2009 10:10 AM

Can you please stop posting the same ideas at the same time? It's freaking me out!

Just kidding! Actually I love it. Proves we're all in tune.

#49. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 12, 2009 10:13 AM

1. Such a great show- can't wait to rewatch.

2. I'm always amazed at how clever and perceptive all of you are.

3. Boodle- Jin did mention his child to Locke (t not bring her back).

4. Boodle- "sacrifice" is not simply a biblical reference. Its pagan, actually and used in most religions and such.

5. Charlotte wasn't seriouslt speaking Klingon- it was a joke, yes?

Keep up the good work everyone- I get so much out of your posts.

#50. Posted by: youknowwho at February 12, 2009 10:13 AM

@ 42 boodle:

Just went back and rewatched the subtitled scenes. The italics are only showing speaking offscreen. The line about "That's why you don't bring women" was off screen, and the only time italics are used when characters are on camera is when Daniel and hubby are using exclimation when discussing the sex of the baby. SHE? SHE!

#51. Posted by: The Other Other at February 12, 2009 10:15 AM

more thoughts:

i like @boddle's idea of daniel being jacob, anythings possible :) will we ever find out why jacob was asking locke to help him when locke sees jacob for the first time?

did daniel warn anyone else to leave the island and never come back when he was time treveling?

why didnt smokey kill the other frenchmen when they went into the temple?

#52. Posted by: tiffani at February 12, 2009 10:22 AM

Betting my 2 cents:

Charlotte – Benjamin & Annie’s daughter

Faraday – Charles & Eloise’s son

Vincent – Smokey & Kate’s horse offspring

#53. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 12, 2009 10:24 AM

Agree with#32/LostedIt that Charlotte is not Ben's daughter. With Ben's connections he would surely know it was her when learning about her past, and he would NOT try to kill her.

I also don't think Charlotte is Widmore's daughter either because Ben would have treated her differently if he knew. Also when Ben told Widmore "I'm going to kill your daughter", Widmore didn't ask "which one" so that leaves us to assume he only has one daughter, Penny.

Given that Charlotte speaks Korean fluently, I'm more inclined that she was raised to speak it. So perhaps she is Dr Chang's adoptive daughter after all. Or, the other Koreans we know are the Piak's. Maybe she is somehow related to them.

Where the hell are Bernard and Rose???

#54. Posted by: BEMH at February 12, 2009 10:26 AM

Oh, @ davidrh - I thought the arm Vincent brought back was that of "Roger Workman" - Ben's father in the van. ???
21. Posted by: BunnyLover

I think Roger was found to be completely whole - rather rotted - but whole.

Can anybody else chime in on this?

#55. Posted by: davidrh at February 12, 2009 10:26 AM

Just a quick note to all those who thought I was referring to the arm Vincent brought back - I wasn't. That was definitely Roger Linus'.

I was referring to the arm mentioned by Rousseau in Exodus Pt. 1:

"This is where it all began -- where my team got infected -- where Montand lost his arm. We must move quickly."

A throw-away comment which casual viewers surely forgot several seasons back. But we all remembered... didn't we?!?!

#56. Posted by: Daniel Denial at February 12, 2009 10:28 AM

just started watching again...how does Jin know Charlotte speaks Korean? He goes directly to her asking to translate. He's not looking at Miles but at Charlotte.
Nothing important, but noticed the boat in the background at the marina is named 'illusion'
and @ 47. Posted by: ealgumby #2: After the orchard disappeared, I believe they ran a little bit away to find the well. Don't think we'd see it in the same scene as the rope.

#57. Posted by: Steve at February 12, 2009 10:29 AM

@26 The Other Other - Why isn't Faraday's nose bleeding? He's been on the island before..

I believe that Faraday has actually spent less time on the Island than any of the time trippers. His interactions with the Island's past have yet to happen.

@myself - Working on a theory to answer my own question about the significance of Desmond's visit to Faraday's mom..

I now believe that Faraday's interactions with the Island's past events - including his visit to the Orchid, his potential sharing of future knowledge with Pierre Cheng, and possibly even his warning young Charlotte are the result of instructions Hawking will relay to Daniel.

How will she do this? Faraday's notebook.

One of the time travel rules is that the items you are in contact with stay with you through jumps (the time travel steering committee probably added this rule when Desmond wound up naked after turning the key) Based on that premise:

I believe the notebook originates from a future date. I'm guessing that the final pages include events that go beyond Faraday's experiences thus far.

Another possibility is that the notebook isn't even Faraday's. After watching Ms. Hawking write equations on the chalkboard in Ep 2, I considered that these could be her notes. But if that were the case, the entry "If anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be MY constant" would apply to her rather than Faraday.

Since we see Faraday with the notebook BEFORE the time jumping begins, I'm thinking it was either placed on the Island for him to find, or that after everything unfolds, he writes it all down, and finds a way to deliver the notebook to himself at the point he arrived on the Island. Perhaps his very mission on the Island was to retrieve the notebook.

I'm getting another nosebleed thinking about all the possible scenarios.

#58. Posted by: vacc at February 12, 2009 10:31 AM

@57

Jin knows Charlotte speaks Korean because Jin and Sun were discussing her affair (I believe) last season and Charlotte was eavesdropping and found out.

#59. Posted by: boodle at February 12, 2009 10:31 AM

Great recap, vacc!

@scoosh et al.--Isn't the reason Faraday's nose hasn't become Mt. Vesuvius the fact that Desmond is his constant? As Penny is Desmond's so he doesn't get them either?

#60. Posted by: Glostover at February 12, 2009 10:32 AM

@59

Sorry...meant "when Charlotte was found out"...

#61. Posted by: boodle at February 12, 2009 10:32 AM

thanks boodle!

#62. Posted by: Steve at February 12, 2009 10:33 AM

@47 eal...thanks for the clarification about the empirical quote

@56 daniel denial...yes we did!

About nosebleeds...how come Charlotte got them so much more quickly and more frequently before the rest of the time skipping gang? Does this have to do with the fact that she has been to the island before and has spent the most time there? If so, how come Daniel, or Juliet for that matter, isn't getting them as frequently?

Also, anyone want to start placing bets on where John Locke will wind up once he transports to wherever the heck he is going? I sure didn't see him wearing a parka!!!!

#63. Posted by: Vikki at February 12, 2009 10:34 AM

@Bunny & TOO

I left to run an errand and came back to catch up on posts. Great minds think alike, I guess :-) Either that or our minding are all skipping in unison through time. Maybe we are all off our axises/axii. (Bad grammar?!) I love this blog!

#64. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 12, 2009 10:35 AM

Along with trying to decide where Locke will end up, how about trying to decide when he will end up. I guess this will help us determine the differential between on and off island time. When in off island time did Locke/Bentham start visiting everyone? A year, two, two plus after they returned? I don't think we know that. Will Ben be wherever he shows up to greet him? Hmmm...

#65. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 12, 2009 10:44 AM

Lots of arms loitering all over this bloody (ha!) island.

Smokey is the bomb, not Jughead. But that mechanical noises got me thinking. That and a whole lot of coffee.

We've been told Smokey is not nanotechnology. But we have only the word of Darlton on that. Lying bastards that they are.

And if Smokey is not a Djinn, which BTW I still think that's a great theory, but I forget who's it was, then as far as I can see that leaves a mechanical device of some kind, and the noises tend to bear that out.

So what if Smokey is actually iron shavings, and there's some kind of "intelligent" magnetic remote control device housed in the firmaments of the island. Think HAL and a fourth grade science project gone awry. But there must be some way to contact Smokey and give directions. MAybe Smokey's got his own LAN and his own programming language like BASIC - Ben Always Sees It Coming.

Man, that tentacle reaching up around Frenchie's neck and yanking him down sans arm into the Temple of Doom was awesome.

#66. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 12, 2009 10:45 AM

Few things...
The info Ben had about Charlotte was
that Charlotte Staples Lewis was born on July 2, 1979 in Essex, England to parents David and Jeannette and was raised in Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, England along with two younger sisters.
Does Ben know anymore than that (what Michael found out)? Who is dad and who/where are the sisters or will it not be important? Did she ever cross paths with Paik industries and have to learn Korean?
A cultural anthropologist - did/does she know about the ancient carvings/markings we have seen by the Temple, FDW and in Ben's bedroom?


Did Locke ever tell Ben that he spoke to Christian and not Jacob? Is Christian why Jacob said "Help me" to Locke (and not in reference to Ben or Widmore)?

Has Ben manipulated Locke into thinking he was "special" enough to be "chosen" to use him once again? The info was given to Richard by Locke about his birth and then he failed the test which may show he was an almost choice. They did keep trying to recruit him though. Ethan seemed to think it was impossible for Ben to have given up control to Locke before he shot him.
Everyone seems to use poor Locke. He doesn't even know what side he is on or where he belongs! Every time he finds a "place to call home" he FOOMS away or it/they are taken some other way. Now he has to be sacrificed. Can he ever catch a break?

Ben was the one to tell Locke that once you turn the wheel you cannot ever come back. Lie? That is the only place we hear this rule. Apparently Locke turned the wheel and is going back so why not Ben too. Ben's master plan all along? You know ... he always has a plan.

It was interesting that Ben did not know the Hawking/Faraday connection since she is working with Ben (and Christian) and Faraday was funded by Widmore and on his boat. Also another parent/child dynamic imparting personal motivations in addition to the greater good.

I hope there is another Widmore daughter somewhere so there is a way to save Penny and Des!

My week used to revolve around the weekends and now it revolves around Wednesday night!

#67. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at February 12, 2009 10:45 AM

@63 - Vikki

Daniel theorizes that those with longer exposure to the island are more succeptaible to the brain-melting nose-bleeds.

Longest on the Island: Charlotte, who grew up there, and was taken away as a young girl.
Then Miles (second to get nose bleed, though we don't know under what circumstances he has been to the island before- perhaps Dr. Chang's baby, and maybe he left when he was 3 and a half years old, so he wouldn't remember being there?).
Then Juliet, who has been on the island three years.
Then Sawyer, Lock and Jin, who have all been on the island for a few months.
Then Daniel, who has been on the island a few weeks.

Jin may have been unconcious during the first several jumps (while he was floating at sea), which is why his nose is not bleeding yet- his "internal time mechanism" has not registered the jumps until now. John may not be experiencing them because he is "special" and Faraday becaase they just have not started in him yet, because his 'exposure' to the island has been less than the others.

#68. Posted by: scoosh at February 12, 2009 10:50 AM

@67: "Charlotte Staples Lewis was born on July 2, 1979 in Essex, England to parents David and Jeannette and was raised in Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, England along with two younger sisters."

If this was in fact true then why the heck she told Dan that she's still looking for the place where she was born?

That was also staged by Charles Widmore when he took Annie and baby Charlotte away from Ben, making him believe they were dead. Somehow...

It's not a solid theory. Only healthy speculation :)

#69. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 12, 2009 11:03 AM

Great review! If eloise was from the island (presumably the pigtailed girl in Jughead) and also charles widemore, it would stand as a good possibility that perhaps Widemore is Daniel's father?

#70. Posted by: Visible Jacob at February 12, 2009 11:08 AM

@19. Posted by: BunnyLover

I think the actress who plays Claire's mama has simply had plastic surgery. It did throw me off - kept thinking about Austin Powers and the Mole...

Anyhoots...
Crazy whacky fun episode!

So - it appears that the "sickness" experienced by the Rousseau crew was not related to nosebleeds and time-travel, but is related to exposure to the Temple, Smokey, and who knows what else!

I wonder how much time took place from when the arm was ripped off, to when Rousseau shot everyone? Robert seemed to know alot (ie just the security system) pretty quickly!

So what the frick (that goes out to all you BSG fans) happened to him?

Obviously he was no longer the same, but was he brainwashed, enhanced, or what? What is it that makes you want to plug your soon to give birth wife?

When Jin made the jump, and saw the black smoke, all I could think of was Danielle using the same technique to steal Aaron. Did she not say that she saw this just before Alex was taken from her? I thought for sure we would see the abduction of Alex...

Many seem bothered about Rousseau not remembering Jin, but think of what she has just gone through, and then think of what she still will experience (baby abduction). Add on 16 years of isolation (no contact with any faces), and there you have it. Very easy to mix stuff up. She may have blocked him out entirely, choosing not to believe that a man really flashed before her eyes! Perhaps she even believed that she was sick herself, and that Jin was but a hallucination, a symptom...

I can't stop thinking about Alex. Not because the actress was a hottie, but because she is still called Alex. We know Robert and Danielle had picked a name in advance. How exactly will Alex be baby napped, where her name will also be known? How will that information be relayed? Will Danielle pass it on when she loses Alex, or is this info already acquired when Robert is converted/or whatever? Better yet, was smokey simply doing the security rounds, or was he sent out to kick ass by someone like Ben?

More thoughts to come no doubt....

#71. Posted by: shikotee at February 12, 2009 11:19 AM

About Smokey (there had better be a good 'splanation, Lucy)- Rousseau's hubby comes back but is "bad." We've seen other characters that have had a touch of "Smokeyness" to them and have been harbingers of doom (Eko's brother for example).

I need some help here- Didn't Locke get sucked down by Smokey at some point in a previous season. I seem to remember a "let me go- it'll be fine" moment from Locke as he gets sucked down. If that is the case, should we all be suspect of Locke at this point? Has he changed in some way after that moment? Maybe I'm just pulling at a thread, here.

Thanks for all of the posts; it keeps from real work on Thursdays.

#72. Posted by: lardiea at February 12, 2009 11:19 AM

Hi all. Very interesting episode. I didn't have time yet to read through all the posts, but I'll try to avoid JWTB.

During John's conversation with Christian I got the strangest and strongest feeling that, at least in the O6 future, John=Ben. Does that make sense? There was something in the wording of Christian that made me think this. And in retrospect: BENtham, Ben being very protective of John's body, the "reincarnation" van. Ben seemed surprised that Eloise was Daniels mom, didn't he know that? And what was in the box that he took in the hotel room (Sun's gun or something related to John?). Since we ventured into sf territory completely this year, could we be seeing the obligatory mind swap as well?

Well, I wanted to get that out of my system. Before I post again I'll try to read the rest first. :)

O, and this is funny: http://tinyurl.com/23nf8z

#73. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 12, 2009 11:22 AM

@52:

the smoke monster clearly has some way of being able to "read" people (i.e. when he scanned locke). it seems like he kills the ones that he can't use (i.e. ecko - maybe the ones who have strong wills?) and "brainwashes" others to do its bidding. my theory is that the reason he killed the first french woman was that he rejected her, but wanted to drag the guy into his cave-thing (as he tried to with locke) to get him under his control. once the others went down there, they were toast (in terms of being brainwashed).

i wonder if smokey's "brainwashing" of the french dudes relates in any way to the "brainwashing" we witnessed of karl.

#74. Posted by: bigO at February 12, 2009 11:37 AM

Big, major, stunning props to Vacc for handling this review. Why is it you always get the episodes that are CHOCKED with details? Once again, you did an awesome job. Thanks A TON! -- mac

#75. Posted by: mac at February 12, 2009 11:46 AM

Excellent job, vacc. But no fair, *your* title got a very dramatically delivered line, so no way could you miss it while scribbling notes. (g)

o======

@vacc
>Christian Sheppard is there to guide Locke. Even more, he tells Locke that he was supposed to move the Island - not Ben.

Anybody worried that Christian told Locke to "give the wheel a push", but lock instead gave it a *pull*. Just how specific are Christian's/(?Jacob)'s instructions, anyway?

o======

@vacc

>Christian gives Locke the details of his mission - to convince everyone who left the Island to return, and find Eloise Hawking who will tell them how to get back.

Makes me wonder if Ji Yeon is included in "everyone who left the Island". She was, after all, already in existence in Sun's belly. Or is Lost taking a position on when human life begins here?

o======

@vacc

>Locke limps to the donkey wheel, which at this point in time is not iced over, and gives it a nudge.

Also, no way anyone with a protruding compound fracture is limping anywhere.

o======

@vacc

>The Oceanic 6 - minus Hurley and Sayid - take a ride with Ben to see Eloise Hawking.

Minus Kate and Aaron, also.

o======

@vacc

>Besides the reveal that Ms. Hawking is Faraday's mom, I don't see how Desmond's arrival changes anything. Seems like the problem is being worked on already.

Maybe it means she can't use certain methods of transportation, such as those that kill everybody already there.

o======

Charlotte seemed to be experiencing Type 1 time travel (inside the mind, a la Desmond, Therese, Minkowski, and Eloise (the rat) as opposed to all the Type 2 time travel (body and all) that everybody else, and Charlotte herself up to this point, were experiencing.

o======

So Daniel Faraday is a fraud. The past CANNOT be changed, yet he attempts to do just that in warning a young Charlotte never to come back to the island. He may yet be right, but apparently he doesn't believe it as firmly as we thought.

o======

@11 Clementine pondered:

>What stopped Rousseau from going into Smokey’s bolt-hole the first time - before the time-traveling Jin arrived?

This was the first (and only) time, complete with Jin. Better question - why didn't she mention him. perhaps, given his inexplicable appearings/disappearings, she concluded he was a hallucination.


>Anybody else think Montand’s voice coming from Smokey’s lair was really Smokey? (like when Smokey was Eko’s brother)

Perhaps, but if so wouldn't all the other Frenchies have had to be Smokey, too? Hard to see how a bullet could damage smoke.

>One minute Jin is speaking perfectly good English, and the next he’s demanding Charlotte translate. I think the point was for us to remember that Charlotte speaks Korean. An indication that she is the daughter of the Changs or just a red herring?

Don't think Chang is a Korean name. My guess is their explanation was so fantastic Jin thought he wasn't interpreting the English correctly in his limited proficiency. I believe he knew Charlotte spoke Korean - didn't she reveal it in the earlier episode where she was trying to keep Sun and Jin at the Beach camp>

>If Dan warned little Charlotte during some future skipping, how did this Charlotte remember it, if it hasn’t happened yet?

It was in Charlotte' past, but dimly remembered if at all (how much can you remember from when you were four?) But her recent mind-time-tripping has let her reexperience the encounter and put it fresh in her memory.

>How come Ji Yeon doesn't have to go back - does being a fetus exempt you from island destiny?

Same question occurred to me, see above.

o======

@16 davidrh falsely remembered:

>And thanks to Daniel Denial - I had COMPLETELY forgotten about the arm that Vincent had carried into camp in the first season. Obviously, a French arm.

Nah, that was Roger (Workman) Linus's arm, complete with V-Dub van key attached.

o======

@19 BunnyLover admitted:

>I have to watch the whole episode again tonight, as there was a MAJOR basketball game on last night (Duke vs. Carolina) and my husband claimed rights to the TV. So we "hopped" back and forth.

You poor dear. A one TV family? Didn't think such existed in this day and age. There was quite sufficient time to catch up on the game during the "Lost" commercials. Where is this man's priorities?

o======

@29 LostedIt:

>1) People going into the temple don't come out the same. Obviously it did something to them the moment they went "down the rabbit hole". The Temple is likely going to hold a lot more sway in the story line going forward. Hey, didn't Ben tell the rest of the Others to go to the temple at one point?

Haven't we established here that the Temple and the orchid are in the same place? Just at different times? (Both over the FDW). If so, when Ben instructed Richard take the Others "to the Temple" was he instructing him to take them somewhere else in *time*?

o======

@56 Daniel Denial recalled a quote:

>"This is where it all began -- where my team got infected -- where Montand lost his arm. We must move quickly."

But then, from our point of view, this was more a case of Montand's arm lost Montand, ne c'est pas?

#76. Posted by: Cecil at February 12, 2009 11:48 AM

also, has anyone else noticed that it seems like Locke has now resorted to the same manipulation as Ben? He promises Jin that he will not bring Sun back to the island and that he'll use the wedding band to convince her he's dead. however, it looks like technically, it will be Ben who brings her back (since Locke is dead) and who uses the ring to prove he is alive - Locke gets by on a technicality. This just seemed like something Ben would do.

I wonder if this type of manipulation is going to play a role in the ultimate disposition of the series. It seems like Ben/Locke's blind faith in the island/Jacob/whatever causes them to do awful things in order to achieve their ends (which they believe in without question or, sometimes, reason).

#77. Posted by: bigO at February 12, 2009 11:53 AM

@64

=Maybe we are all off our axises/axii. (Bad grammar?!) I love this blog!

"Axes"

#78. Posted by: gramma poll lice at February 12, 2009 11:54 AM

First time poster; longtime lurker. I've try reading most of the comments and scanned those I didn't and could find any reference to 2 questions I have. Perhaps someone could answer them.
1. Walt. Why isn't he part of the group that must return to the island?
2. The canoe. Why did it time shift with the group? Wouldn't it have stayed in it's own time? Of course that would have left them all doggy-paddling in the ocean.

Thanks to any and all who can help answer. Love this show. Unless they pull an X-files, I'm with it till the END.

#79. Posted by: fattylumpkin at February 12, 2009 11:55 AM

How come nobody's commenting how Charlotte loves Jeronimo Jackson? THAT may have been my favorite line of the show!

#80. Posted by: Sillygirl060 at February 12, 2009 12:00 PM

@66 ransomjackson said:

>And if Smokey is not a Djinn, which BTW I still think that's a great theory, but I forget who's it was, then as far as I can see that leaves a mechanical device of some kind, and the noises tend to bear that out.

I believe that was the great Vacc, hisself.

#81. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 12, 2009 12:06 PM

One thought regarding time travel....


Do the people who do not travel see the flashing light too? So far, it seems like the travelers get blinded, have convulsions, etc...

ie - Does Rousseau just blink, and Jin is gone?

#82. Posted by: shikotee at February 12, 2009 12:07 PM

Just a quick note to say great review Mac...still enjoying them after all these years.

I'm glad all of the O6 were not neatly gathered together so easily by Ben. That would've been pretty unrealistic storytelling imho. It'll now be interesting to see how Kate/Aaron/Hurley/Sayid become convinced to go back...which you know they eventually will.

#83. Posted by: JoePike at February 12, 2009 12:10 PM

If you can't change the events in the past, then how do you explain the fact that Jin personally saved Russo from following the smoke monster into the hole and ending up "infected" like all the others? She followed his advice and was the only one of her team to die - so Jin clearly changed the past!

#84. Posted by: Greg at February 12, 2009 12:18 PM

So let's see if I got this straight.

Christian tells Locke to move the island, and Locke lets Ben do it.

Ben tells Locke to kill his father, and Locke has Sawyer do it.

I'm sure there's one or two other examples that I'm forgetting.

And now he's got to march to his death (?) willingly?

And this guy is special? Seems more like a stooge (Curly-esque) to me.

#85. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 12, 2009 12:25 PM

Great review, Vacc. And also interesting theory at -58 about Dan and his Mum.

One other thing that I couldn't quite grasp: We saw Jin give Locke his wedding ring. Locke put it in his pocket. The next time we see the ring, Ben pulls it out of HIS pocket. (1) He had it all along, yet Sun didn't scold him with "Why did you wait so long to show me? (2) When did Ben get it from Locke?

Which leads to -73 Plain Simple pointing out the Jeremy BENtham name. hmmmm

Another favorite line: Locke says to Sawyer, "What would be the fun in that?"

Charlotte also made a comment to the effect that she knows more about Asian culture than (sounded like) Hannibal. Anyone catch that?

Re: Des Remember, he said to Penny, "Why would I ever want to go back there?" I guess he'll find out now. (Do we actually know what the message is from Daniel to his Mum?)

Dang. I wore a white blouse today. There isn't enough cold water to get those blood stains out.

#86. Posted by: lovelost at February 12, 2009 12:25 PM

@11/Clementine: Jin has ALWAYS stopped Danielle from going into the rabbit hole. Just as Daniel has always met Desmond at the Hatch. Events are not being changed, they are being played out.

Also Jin speaks halting English at best and doesn't know every word. When he asked for a translation it was because he could not convey his thoughts fast enough or completely in English.

@14/Shannon: My guess in that Sun convinces Kate/Aaron and Hurley to go with them after Miss Hawking's Ceremony of Proof(tm).

@17/MichaelMVP: When Smokey dragged Locke across the jungle, it made the same chain rattling sounds.

Was the Temple on the same spot as Locke's hole?

@19/Bunny Lover: Claire's mom was replaced by a new actress according to Lostpedia. Also, you need two TVs in your house!

@28/Boodle: The italics indicate that the speaker is off screen.


Jin speaks halting English at best

#87. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 12, 2009 12:31 PM

But where does WALT fit into all this? Why doesn't he need to return to the island with all the others?

#88. Posted by: fattylumpkin at February 12, 2009 12:35 PM

As far as the "time travelling conundrum" goes...I'm pretty sure the explanation is that EACH individual character is traveling linearly on their own timeline...

Jin always stopped Rousseau from going after the monster, it just didn't happen on his timeline yet.

While Daniel has not yet visited Charlotte in his linear timeline, it has already happened in her timeline.

In Season 4 when Desmond tells Penny to call him on Christmas eve; that was obviously the first time he had done that. However, for Penny, that event had already happened.

I dont know how else to explain it, but I hope that makes sense and clears up the confusion for some people.

As far as items materializing, I don't know the explanation for it. But objects like that happen in many time traveling stories. If you ever read "The Time Traveler's Wife" Clare and Henry have a book of dates that is similar to Locke and Richard's compass.

#89. Posted by: AK at February 12, 2009 12:35 PM

Well my initial thoughts on the episode were...
1) Thank goodness/good riddens w/ Charlotte...I was so over her...my husband says that is mean...I don't care...
2) How does Locke know they are still alive? This is important.
3) Locke is being used by Ben & the others & Jacob...just like he got used by his Dad...conned if you will.
4) I definitely don't think Ben knew Eloise was Dan's mom. First...he was very hostile toward all of them...would've killed any of them if he had the chance...second, he seemed really surprised.
5) What did the monster do to these people? I remember that John went w/ the monster too...and he has seemed off since...like more sinister...interesting...maybe his attempt to bring the O6 back is an evil plot b/c that island IS death!


@9 Agree about Charlotte.
@10 I really don't think he is her Dad b/c she seems to have not known the crazy man she was referencing...and I think she knew her dad.
@11 Yes!!! It was all very eerie...I instantly thought it was Smokey. I thought that Desmond recognized Eloise so I am sure that will come up at some point.
@13 GMTA...completely what I thought.
@29 Jin did say DOn't bring back my baby at the end of his speech.
@32 Agree about Ben.
@72 Agreed...is this how he knows they are alive...Smokey told him the future?

#90. Posted by: Shana Roberson at February 12, 2009 12:36 PM

Just had a thought and I'll start by saying that I'm thinking about all of the reasons that it doesn't make sense as I'm typing this post. I think it is worth putting out there though. We haven't seen Bernard & Rose for awhile, right? Could they have, freaked out by the time jumps, gone to the caves to hide, run into themselves and died as a result? Could they be Adam and Eve in the caves? I'm sure it doesn't make sense, but does anything?

#91. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 12, 2009 12:43 PM

@ 91 lost2theworld

Rose and Bernard, and a number of other redshirts, last we saw, were heading for the creek after being fired upon with flaming arrows. We can only expect that they have been bouncing through time like Sawyer, Juliet et al. Since they are leader-less, they probably have been sticking to one spot somewhere, 'waiting it out' and probably suffering from nosebleeds. My first thought would be the original Camp, since it is familiar, but when the Camp is not there through the jumps, where else would they go? One idea- the caves- also familiar to them, since they lived there is Season 1, and there is natural shelter and water. While I am holding out hope that Adam and Eve will be someone more 'special' (for lack of a better term) that Rose and Bernard, it certainly stands to reason. I like (and I apologize for not recalling who said this above) the idea that Adam and Eve and Ji Yuon and Aaron.

#92. Posted by: scoosh at February 12, 2009 12:53 PM

Nice job on the review, vacc—thanks!

My choice for best line: Sawyer to Juliet: "You just had to say something, didn't you..."

I liked this episode more than any of this season's so far, I think primarily because of seeing Danielle's backstory. It's nice to finally get some answers...even if more questions were raised, like:

Is Smokey "the sickness"? Or does Smokey cause "the sickness"? Does Smokey possess people? Animate dead bodies (Christian?)? How do the people on Rousseau's team know that Smokey is the security system? Does he/she tell them so? Does Smokey parlez en français?

Just as a side note, I don't think all the members of Rousseau's team were French...one of them had the last name of Brennan.

A couple things came to mind while watching this part of the episode; one was the classic Star Trek episode about the salt monster ("The Man Trap"—thanks, ealgumby ; ) ) that was able to shape-shift & take on others' identities. I don't know if we had decided previously that Smokey had become Eko's brother Yemi (considering Yemi's body would have deteriorated considerably before Smokey needed it in his/her encounter w/Eko), but what we saw tonight is evidence in favor of Smokey's shape-shifting ability.

The other thing that came to mind was a long-ago book, "Ammie Come Home" (by Barbara Michaels, if anyone's interested—tinyurl.com/b6dnyu). In brief, it's a story of long-ago people's trapped emotions manifesting themselves through possession of the humans currently living in the same house. One "trapped emotion" manifests itself at times as a moving column of smoke. Could Smokey be something like that—serving as a security system by taking over & ultimately destroying anyone who unfortunately ends up in its clutches?

→ 5. PreacherOnun & 18. ransomjackson: Definitely liking the idea that Charlotte is Ben & Annie's daughter & that Ben stole Alex to make up for Annie taking Charlotte away, although → 32. LostedIt makes a good point. Did we learn at what age Charlotte was taken away from the island? Would it be possible that she was renamed by her mother & thus Ben wouldn't recognize her?

In any case, I'm not going to miss Charlotte at all, & I didn't think it made any sense for Charlotte to become an anthropologist to find the island—what does anthropology have to do w/finding a lost place?

→ 10. Vikki: TPTB need to come up w/a genealogical chart for the relationships of the characters... : )

→ 22. grimgravyX: Agree w/your assessment of Jin having always been there to prevent Rousseau from clubbing at Smokey's Underground Disco. ; )

Does Jin understand that he's been time traveling? Was he ever around when time travel was discussed prior to the freighter blowing up? Does he have enough English vocabulary to understand a Daniel-led discussion on time travel? (I'm not sure that I do...)

→ 35–40: Too funny...you have to make sure that your comments don't intersect or we'll have problems å la Bunny #15!

→ 47. ealgumby: Why is the FDW only the DW, and not F?

Global warming, of course... ; >

→ 58. vacc: Time travel steering committee
&
→ 66. ransomjackson: BASIC:

Yet more examples why TPTB ought to have the posters here write for the show!

#93. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at February 12, 2009 12:54 PM

@47
“We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. We forge our tradition in the spirit of our ancestors. You have our gratitude. Now, let’s all give Dr. Klahn a hand!” Pretty obscure reference, kudos, ealgumby, kudos.

#94. Posted by: fondue123 at February 12, 2009 12:55 PM

@86 lovelost
"Charlotte also made a comment to the effect that she knows more about Asian culture than (sounded like) Hannibal. Anyone catch that?"
Actually she said she knows "more about Ancient Carthage than Hannibal", not "Asian culture".

#95. Posted by: fondue123 at February 12, 2009 12:59 PM

I agree with someone above who said that Rousseau only blinked when Jin saw the light and disappeared. She does not seem to be time-traveling.

Also, at the beach showdown, her husband had a beard. Should we be able to figure out how much time has passed?

Finally, I gotta stick with Aaron being the ONE who needs to be returned to the Island. But the only way is to make the 06 think they all have to return. Unbeknownst to him, Jack was bringing Christian "back". Aaron is Christian's grandson. I can't quite connect all the dots yet. Maybe I'm just going crazy.

#96. Posted by: lovelost at February 12, 2009 1:01 PM

@ 26. Posted by: The Other Other

I always thought Daniel's nose doesn't bleed because he has a constant: Desmond. I remember him talking about that on the freighter to Minkowski. And Desmond's nose bleeds stopped (and he didn't die) once he figured out the Penny was his constant ...

#97. Posted by: nikki c at February 12, 2009 1:03 PM

@65...lost2theworld
I have been trying to wrap my head around the timeline of Locke off the island too. Last night, the viewer saw the beginnings of Locke's journey off the island when he turned the UFDW (unfrozen...). But when the viewer saw the scenes unfold of the O6 last night, it was well after Locke/Bentham has been there. I am eager to see exactly WHEN Locke shows up and how the interactions with him unravel with the O6 off the island. Let's remember, too, that the obituary for JB credited his death to suicide. If Locke knew he would have to die in order to save the island, then how does he get to the point of making this ultimate sacrifice, or should we presume that maybe Ben had a hand in making it look like a suicide?

@68 scoosh
Thanks for the info on the nosebleeds...I still am a bit confused. I thought perhaps the frequency of nosebleeds was attributed to how many times a person had been to the island, not the duration of time spent on the island. If it were how many times, then I figured Dan would get them pretty frequently. I guess there's no definitive way to conclude how much time Daniel has actually spent there, but we know he's been there at least 3 times, right? We saw Dr. Candle pass him when they were drilling down below, he's there now, and Charlotte revealed last night that she has seen him there when she was growing up...

#98. Posted by: Vikki at February 12, 2009 1:04 PM

TIASOS: The Italics Are Speaking Off Screen!

Charlotte probabaly speaks/spoke several languages. She was an anthropologist traveling the world looking for Dharma. It would have been useful. Also she spoke either French or Arabic when she first appeared finding the Dharma symbol in the Algerian desert.

@26/OtherOther and @60/Glostover: Maybe Faraday is not nose bleeding because he met his constant. Could the O6 be the leftovers constants? There are/were 6 left. Sawyer, Miles, Jin, Locke, Juliet are becoming bloody nosers. Charlotte died before meeting her constant and Faraday already met his.

@66/ransom jackson: Then why would Smokey have been kept out of Otherville by the electric fence?

Why does Smokey/Jacob only impersonate dead people/things? (Eko's brother, Jack's dad, Kate's horse, Frenchie One-Arm's voice, Mr. Rousseau)

@73/Plain Simple: PRO: BenLocke have a short fuses when frustrated.
CON: BenLocke met himself (a time travel no-no).

#99. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 12, 2009 1:06 PM

@ 98 Vikki

As far as we know, Daniel has still only been to the Island once- I think/believe that when we saw Daniel in the construction-phase of the Orchid Station (Season premier), that is probably the same time that Daniel tells Charlotte (as a child) to leave the Island and not come back, but that both of these things happen in a future jump back in time (which we'll probably see in a coming episode).

As far as the frequency of the nosebleeds go, it seems to me that once someone starts getting them, they get another after each jump in time, and it is when the nosebleeds START happening that is the important thing.

#100. Posted by: scoosh at February 12, 2009 1:11 PM

New theory: Time travel = Reb Bull. It gives you nosebleeds (wings). Ten time jumps with no food, sounds like ten Red Bulls with no food... there will be some nasal seepage.

Thumbs-up review from my clan here. One minor gripe - the show is starting to play out like a game of CLUE (Colonel Mustard in the Pantry with the candlestick). This week the clue was "The Well" (Ginger Anthropologist, dying creekside with the time geek).

I don't mind them dumbing it down a little for better ratings - but if the clues get any easier, they might as well get Garrett Morris in picture-in-picture yelling the clues at us (School for the Hard of Hearing).

#101. Posted by: DocH at February 12, 2009 1:12 PM

scoosh....ah, I see. Okay, so if we assume that the construction worker/Charlotte's childhood is the same time period, than okay, that's one less time. So how about now in the "current" freighter/time jumping period...is that Faraday's second time on the island then? BUT, what if the theory that Dr. Candle was holding baby Charlotte in the 70's-esque flashback to Dharma time is true? Isn't that the same time period of the construction scene? Wouldn't her childhood be a different time then? Am I making any sense? I think I am more confusing myself than anything now...

:)

#102. Posted by: Vikki at February 12, 2009 1:18 PM

@76/Cecil: "Haven't we established here that the Temple and the orchid are in the same place? Just at different times? (Both over the FDW). If so, when Ben instructed Richard take the Others 'to the Temple' was he instructing him to take them somewhere else in *time*?"

I disagree ... the temple appeared close to "a" beach (not "the" beach, because other side of the island), while Orchid/well/FDW are in the jungle interior.

What I'm still curious about, is how Ben unleashed Smokey from his basement secret passageway just after Keamy killed Alex ... Otherton seemed quite a way off from both the Orchid and the Temple. Ideas?

@83/JoePike: "That would've been pretty unrealistic storytelling imho."

Dude, snorted coffee up my nose upon reading that! :) Thank goodness all the O6 were not brought together at once ... a show otherwise completely steeped in realism would've just seemed so *phony* then!!! Tee-hee ... weee!!! ;)

#103. Posted by: ealgumby at February 12, 2009 1:30 PM

Wow!! This episode rocks! I think it was the best one yet.

It was fun to feel like we were getting so many more answers than we usually do...

I think the voice coming from Montard must have been Smokey because how could you speak so calmly and clearly when your arm had just been ripped form the socket?...

I'm leaning towards Charlotte belonging to Chang. But if that is the case, what is Mile's story...

I loved the Ben scenes this epi. Loved the scene in the car, and the fact that he did not know about Hawking being Faraday's mom. Ben always seems to know way more than anybody else, to have all the answers, so it was really cool to see him caught off guard.

Great job on the review Vacc... it felt like I was reading Mac's work, which is a huge compliment to you!

Damn I love this show!

#104. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 12, 2009 1:32 PM

@ 99 PiecesofArzt asked "Then why would Smokey have been kept out of Otherville by the electric fence?"

Well, I mean, we can back-and-forth all day long with the assistance of cocktails or not and never come to a satisfying conclusion (much like dating), but I would theorize that New Otherville was built where it was built because there were no tunnels in that part of the island. And that the Electric (Boogaloo) Sonic Death Fence (SDF) disrupted the lines of magnetism. I wonder if that might explain why Smokey wouldn't go over the fence as well...?

Anybody know anything about magnetism? Is that possible/practical/feasible/stupid?

Maybe the island is a big ol' Etch-a-sketch...shaking it erases everything. Hey, that's not bad...

#105. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 12, 2009 1:35 PM

→ 105. ... but I would theorize that New Otherville was built where it was built because there were no tunnels in that part of the island.
- - - -
The Barracks sit over the top of a half dozen tunnels that converge beneath the grounds. But that was only on the blue print they showed on air. Ben's secret closet may have gone somewhere else.

#106. Posted by: DocH at February 12, 2009 1:49 PM

How about Charlotte = Annie + Chang's daughter? Ben is so angry that he kills off Dharma. (Not sure if this works based on time of extermination and Charlotte's age). Annie runs to save Charlotte. Ben feels he should have fathered a daughter with Annie, so he steals Alex years later.

#107. Posted by: Flom at February 12, 2009 2:06 PM

DocH said "The Barracks sit over the top of a half dozen tunnels that converge beneath the grounds."

Are you sure you weren't watching Hogan's Heroes?

#108. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 12, 2009 2:13 PM

@76 Cecil wrote regarding BL missing some of LOST to watch B-Ball: "You poor dear. A one TV family? Didn't think such existed in this day and age. There was quite sufficient time to catch up on the game during the "Lost" commercials. Where is this man's priorities?"

Well, I hate to admit it, but we actually have 5 TV's in the house. But we both love the "one" because of the comfy couch. Besides, he is my honey bunny and actually asked if we could watch LOST later while this b-ball event was happening. I gave in like any good wife should, especially when I force him to watch every single Tennessee football game. Fair is fair in love and TV time.

#109. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 12, 2009 2:16 PM

@90 Shana -> How does Locke know they are still alive? This is important.

Doesn't Richard tell him this during one of the skips? And didn't he tell Locke that he would have to die as well? Need to go back and rewatch that episode.


@19 BunnyLover -> I have to watch the whole episode again tonight, as there was a MAJOR basketball game on last night (Duke vs. Carolina)

One word - Tivo!

#110. Posted by: Brian at February 12, 2009 2:19 PM

Did anyone catch the name on the van Ben was driving? Canton-Rainer is an anagram for reincarnation.

#111. Posted by: Macmama at February 12, 2009 2:26 PM

I do not agree with the people who are insisting that the Jin/Rousseau meeting in the 80s had always been in place. Not so! Rousseau does not remember Jin becuase Jin had not yet traveled back in time! And by the time he does travel back, Rousseau is already dead! So she will NEVER recall the incident where he stopped her from going down the smokey hole. Perhaps if she were still alive, she would suddenly get that memory "planted" in her, like Desmond did of Daniel's visit to the hatch, and now like Charlotte did with Daniel's warning. BUT we haven't yet seen Daniel go back to give this warning. However, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, and us us viewers just aren't privy to that information yet.

#112. Posted by: BEMH at February 12, 2009 2:27 PM

→ 108. Are you sure you weren't watching Hogan's Heroes?
- - - -
Positive. Do you need verification as to my pontification?

#113. Posted by: DocH at February 12, 2009 2:28 PM

@lovelost#96 - I'm smelling what you are cooking.

I think there is something going on with a reincarnation of Jacob taking place in the form of Christian, Locke, Aaron (maybe even Ben [BENtham , as mentioned above]). Or perhaps there is a dichotomy of good guys vs. bad guys being reincarnated. They mystery is which is which?

Claire: "Don't you bring him back Kate, don't you dare bring him back!" Is perhaps a reference to not only to Aaron, but to Locke/Locke's body as well?

#114. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at February 12, 2009 2:34 PM

@96:
Danielle '04 said the "sickness" started after 3 months, so that's probably about the timeframe for that jump, since she had killed two of them, but not yet hubby.

Anybody notice that the two dead guys at the French beach camp had both arms? Or was there a 4th man in their group that I missed? This picture shows 3 French Men, 1 Korean Man (Jin), and 2 French Women->
http://tinyurl.com/dlj9ly

#115. Posted by: bees at February 12, 2009 2:34 PM

Everyone keeps saying that faraday will tell charlotte to stay off the island in a future flash....I think the flashes have stopped now that locke properly seated the FDW...But the next episode will show that they are now stuck in the 70s...Which will explain faraday in the dharma suit which we saw in the begining of the first episode.
Any arguments?

#116. Posted by: Jim at February 12, 2009 2:36 PM

@ 116 Jim -

Hey Jim. Uh, we don't argue here. We're a big hoppy family. Yes, I said hoppy... afterall I am

#117. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 12, 2009 2:42 PM

Did anyone else notice when Jin is warning Danielle not to go in the hole he seems to be trying to preserve the future as it is meant to be. He seems aware that events need to work out as he already knows that they will.

He says to her "No,no... you don't go.. with the baby" This struck me when he said it as being a statement of fact rather than just Jin urging her not to go.

#118. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 12, 2009 2:46 PM

RITNJ (reincarnation is the new Jughead)!

TIATOJ (the italics are the other Jughead)

@98: Vikki (and the others talking about Farraday coming back a number of times) I never took this history to mean he's left and come back numerous times to the island. I've always taken this to mean there are a number of time jumps into the past that are left that we haven't yet seen happen.

As for the discussion about the smoke monster being a robot or something mechanical, it's certainly possible, at least on an obscure level. But anything that's composed of smoke that can pull trees out of the ground, hurl humans around like paperweights, manifest itself as dead people, and generally come and go relatively at will is definitely not a 100% completely solid entity. I'd say the clanking chain sounds are definitely a hint of something but currently there's not enough information available to say with any accuracy whether it's more like a figurative leash around Smokey's proverbial neck or an actual tether or perhaps some actual component of whatever it is.

#119. Posted by: LostedIt at February 12, 2009 2:52 PM

"@16 davidrh falsely remembered:"
#76 Posted by Cecil.


O Yeah. The car keys! I forgot about those! You would think that if I can remember the stiletto shoe make, the form fitted straight skirt, the satin tightly fitted blouse worn by Juliet as she seductively crawled out of the submarine after all these months . . that I would remember the keys . . .! . .

I’m sorry. what keys...?...

My mind’s a bit foggy right now . . .


What the heck? My glasses are steamed up for some reason . . .

#120. Posted by: davidrh at February 12, 2009 2:55 PM

@ 102 Vikki

I'm sticking to my belief that this is still Faraday's first trip to the island.

When Daniel lands on the island from the Helicopter- he's never been there before.
The scene where we see Dan in the bowels of the Orchid... I believe this will be the NEXT time jump the characters go on. Perhaps the last jump, now that the UFDW is back in place.

Also, I am not working under the assumption that Charlotte is Dr. Chang's baby.

See Jim's post (116) that suggests the next jump sticks them in Dharma time, and they will get stuck there- I think that's a great idea.

#121. Posted by: scoosh at February 12, 2009 2:57 PM

So, BTW, we have ashes that appear to be holding Jacob enclosed in one area, an electric fence keeping the smoke monster our of a different area, what other entities that are part of or related to the island are there with similar restrictions to them and how were these restrictions discovered?

IGBDE - it's gotta be da eyeliner! ;)

#122. Posted by: LostedIt at February 12, 2009 2:57 PM

What if? Final episode it's revealed that Walt is actually Jacob. My head would then explode.

#123. Posted by: Lost Like a Mother at February 12, 2009 3:21 PM

I suspect that the reason the O6 and Des need to return is that each of them serves as a constant for someone on the island. I.e. Kate for Sawyer, Des for Farraday, Sun for Jin, Jack for Julia, etc. Just a thought.

#124. Posted by: Lost Like a Mother at February 12, 2009 3:28 PM

A few points:

When Ben and the O6 bring back Locke's body, will he "take over" for Christian Shepard as Jacob's body double? So instead of Locke being the Others' leader in body, he may become their leader in spirit. (FYI - This thought came to me at 5:30am. Damn it if this show is going to start keeping me up at night)

I'm still not convinced of the need to bring back the O6 at all. Faraday let his doubts be known last night and I had been thinking for while that it was a ruse by Ben to get himself back to the island. After all Ben = Liar. Ben may need the O6 but the island may not. Part of this comes from Ben's assertion that the O6 need to go back or their friends will die. Well, some of their friends have died, especially in the arrow attack. Do they not count as friends? Does Ben differentiate between the Lost clique and the extras?

And I agree...TIASOS! Well put @PiecesofArzt

#125. Posted by: Alex ( Not Rousseau) at February 12, 2009 3:43 PM

@105/ransom jackson: You are right, it was a sonic fence. And I don't know enough about magnetism or sonics to say why one would affect the other. And I don't want to date you.

@112/BEMH: Do you remember the name of that crazy guy you met once in 1993? Yeah, he did something memorable!

My point on not remembering Jin (or his name) is that either she does remember him and can't explain why this man she met 16 years ago is now here and doesn't want to appear more crazy (is that possible?) or she can't remember his name and he is just another Korean guy she met.

Just for fun, without looking it up like I did, name any of the members of the band Spin Doctors. They were huge in 1993 and if you were in college (as I was) you could not escape their 2 songs. I could only recognize the lead singer much less name him. In 16 years, a lot of things come and go into your head like how to dodge bullets and hide in the jungle.

#126. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 12, 2009 3:49 PM

I think that the reason that Daniel hasn't and isn't going to get any nose bleeds is that he has Desmond as his constant. He wrote that Desmond was his constant in his journal. He has now seen Desmond on the island in real time last season, on the island during time travel (in the hatch) and also at Oxford during Desmond's travelling. This is keeping him grounded and not susceptible to the dangers of time travel.

#127. Posted by: Gunther at February 12, 2009 3:52 PM

regarding walt.
supposidly he's going to be on the 2/25 episode!!!

#128. Posted by: sbt at February 12, 2009 3:54 PM

In regards to the nosebleeds, didn't Faraday ask Charlotte whether she had been on the island previously? If that is a factor, does that mean Sawyer and Juliet have previously and unremembered island exposure too? We suspect Miles has been to the island before, hence why he joined the team in the first place.

And Miles did have the line of the episode: "He's Korean. I'm from Encino." Classic.

#129. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 12, 2009 4:02 PM

It doesn't seem possible that the time lapsed between Danielle getting to the island and shooting her baby daddy, is 3 months. Didn't he say something about I knew you shouldn't have come being 7 months preggers? Something doesn't add up there.

#130. Posted by: rosepjb at February 12, 2009 4:04 PM

**When Jin says to Danielle "No,no... you don't go.. with the baby", he said it as being a statement of fact rather than just urging her not to go.
→ 118. Posted by: Lost in ca

I totally agree that his line was delivered as fact, not warning.

But what would she have done if Jin had not been there? Did his presence "save" the future, ie did he make sure things happened as they "should"?

**I do not agree with the people who are insisting that the Jin/Rousseau meeting in the 80s had always been in place. Not so! Rousseau does not remember Jin becuase Jin had not yet traveled back in time! And by the time he does travel back, Rousseau is already dead!
→ 112. Posted by: BEMH

If she's already dead, then past events have already taken place, so what was the purpose of Jin going back in time to meet her??

I love this show ...and you...and you...and you...and you...

#131. Posted by: lovelost at February 12, 2009 4:06 PM

Awesome episode, recap, and posts. One thing to add that I noticed. Not super important, but speaks to how powerful smokey is.

The first French woman he killed: he did not drop her from the trees. He actually blew her body UP out from under the ground and then a few seconds later her body plummeted to the ground. I DVR'd it and re-watched several times. That's a MEAN monster!

#132. Posted by: DJ Ativanex at February 12, 2009 4:10 PM

BTW.. where is Vincent in all of this time jumping around? And how do these flashes of light effect the poor mutt? I can't imagine it would be good for the thing. I just have to wonder when he's going to come running out the jungle next.

#133. Posted by: swfanatic at February 12, 2009 4:11 PM

@133
and whose arm he'll be carrying...

#134. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 12, 2009 4:16 PM

I think the best line was when Locke said he was going down the well to find a way off the island, and Sawyer said something like, "What, is there a subway down there?!" I'm glad Ginger died, because she was starting to get on my nerves. I'm also glad she blurted out so many cool things near the end, in all languages. Smokey is an enigma, it seems to change people, but remember that Ben was able to summon smokey at will last season. I think Charlotte remembered Faraday the same way that Desmond was "implanted" with the memory about Daniel's visit. All in all a great episode. I did enjoy Ben's little conniption fit in the van. It was almost believable!

#135. Posted by: soxy1824 at February 12, 2009 4:19 PM

regarding the why doesn't Danielle remember Jin problem, I think the explanation has already been given. Its a course correction... so in the original time line there was always someone or something that kept Danielle from following the rest of her team into Smokey's lair. Once Jin was inserted into the time line, the island- or time course corrected and Jin now stopped Danielle from going down with the rest of the science team. Time on the show has some flexibility but it will always come out to the roughly the same. Perhaps if there was a living Danielle in January/February 2005 she would get a forced memory ala the Des /Faraday plot line. So essentially Jin's appearance/disappearance had no effect on the final outcome...

#136. Posted by: holidaysinthesun at February 12, 2009 4:26 PM

Upon arrival at the Orchid, what year is it? Dharma ruins still standing, vaugly looking like 2005.

Next flash. Dharma building there, well exists (whith fresh, non rotted rope!!) What year might this be. I presume pre-dharma, but how much?

Next flash. Well appears not dug yet(or created by alien beam tool). FDW is in existence with no sign of well from bottom either. Do the caverns lead anywhere else?. Is this way in the past??
Was the well there while Orchid was being built, but no one noticed?? When Ben climbed down the shaft behind the Orchid chamber, was that part of the well?

Comic con video established Changs baby as a boy.

I think Charlotte's mother might well have been Annie. Time and age seem about right. Father, Ben, maybe. If so either her mom did a Ben proof job of disappearing(and Ben thought birthplace reconnaissance was accurate), or Ben knew she had a bullet proof vest, was born on the Island and wouldn't be hurt(other than broken ribs) when he shot her.

#137. Posted by: mtncbn at February 12, 2009 4:37 PM

@137 my second paragraph -- Dharma building not there --

#138. Posted by: mtncbn at February 12, 2009 4:39 PM

Another good line in the episode was when Jin mentioned the helicopter may be at his camp and one of the Frenchmen commented about first he had a boat, now helicopter...what was left...a submarine...?! HA!!!!!!!!

So Charlotte says that she grew up on the island...with the Dharma project and her mom took her away and "denied" the island, whether on purpose or not...? How did Charlotte and her mom get off the island? Was Ben in charge at the time? Would he have allowed it?

#139. Posted by: boodle at February 12, 2009 4:46 PM

Question here - wouldn't Faraday be Charlotte's constant if they saw each other in a different place/time - or am I thinking of this all wrong?

#140. Posted by: susiew at February 12, 2009 4:58 PM

Has anyone noticed how the time jump sequence has changed the last three weeks? If you look at the flashes of light in the season premier it looks like the characters are simply blinded by the light and hear a very high pitched sound. Last night I noticed that the sequence includes the above mentioned characteristics but also some type of mental disorientation. I hope I am explaining it correctly. You can see the mental anguish on their faces, as if their memories are jumping around from one place to another.

#141. Posted by: Michaelmvp at February 12, 2009 5:07 PM

I find it strange that Desmond is "grouped" with the O6 when they meet with Eloise. No one ever said that Desmond had to go back to the island with the 06. (or Walt) Why doesn't Ben point out that Desmond is NOT part of the O6. And, why doesn't Desmond say, "Excuse me...I'm not part of this, but I do need to talk to you since you are Daniel's mother...)
Also, I'm very interested to know why Eloise isn't upset that some of the O6 are missing from their meeting. She was very insistant with Ben that ALL of them be together. And yet, she says, "Let's get started." Huh?

#142. Posted by: Staci at February 12, 2009 5:09 PM

I just grazed the posts, and I promise to go back and read. Did anyone else find it extremely odd to see Ben driving an automobile? Oddly out of place. I bet he cusses a lot in traffic.

#143. Posted by: meg at February 12, 2009 5:25 PM

@43

"Montag definitely was not screaming from inside the temple. He would've been in so much pain that getting out intelligible words would have been an act of jacob. Especially what we heard..."hey guys i'm hurt...please help me help me" yeah right, would be more like "ahhhh #$@! @ guuuuys my aahhhhhhhhh mmmmmmmyyy aa--rrrahhhhh"

I just could not get Mustafa from Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me out of my mind during that scene - it definitely interfered with the dramatic effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aw9D7R73jc

#144. Posted by: Caelum at February 12, 2009 5:35 PM

Second wathcing

Why didn't Sun show the pic of Ji Yeon on her cell phone to Kate?

That's all.

#145. Posted by: mtncbn at February 12, 2009 5:58 PM

and what about Locke's 'body'?? Is it out in the van?

#146. Posted by: mtncbn at February 12, 2009 6:02 PM

Is there more than one temple? Robert said that the security system was guarding the temple. When Ben sent CFC, Alex, and Karl to 'The Temple' (with dharma symbol) CFC (I can't spell the R name) didn't know where it was.

#147. Posted by: mtncbn at February 12, 2009 6:49 PM

@146 mtncbn asked:

>and what about Locke's 'body'?? Is it out in the van?

At one point he left it at the butcher shop. Has he had any time to retreive it? Note that in that and other conversations not once did Ben refer to a "body". Ominous foreshadowing or Darlton toying with the fans?

---

And for those interested, Survivor - Tocantins kicks off at 8:00 tonight, look for my review tomorrow. Click my name below to go there now for a preview...

#148. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 12, 2009 6:51 PM

@147 mtncbn asked:

>Is there more than one temple? Robert said that the security system was guarding the temple. When Ben sent CFC, Alex, and Karl to 'The Temple' (with dharma symbol) CFC (I can't spell the R name) didn't know where it was.

I've been assuming the Orchid was built on the ruins of the temple. Aren't they both over the FDW?

Given this, I believe Richard was sent on a trip in time as well as space - but then I could be wrong.

#149. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 12, 2009 6:55 PM

Thanks for the reminder, Cecil. I just started watching Surivor the season before last, so I eagerly look forward to your reviews.

#150. Posted by: lovelost at February 12, 2009 7:03 PM

Darn you people and your prolific posting! I need to make dinner, but I couldn’t stop until I got to the bottom :)

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree about the skippers always having been in past timelines until/unless we get further clarification. I believe (with BEMH and holidayinthesun) that past events occurred in some original format without the skippers. And I’m basing that on Desmond’s implanted memory of Daniel, which I believe occurred as a result of the skipping.

I agree with everyone who is not sorry to see the end of Charlotte. Although the repeated toppling to the ground like a felled redwood was starting to tickle my funny bone. I was waiting for Sawyer to get fed up and say something about her not-so-delicate landings.

And I, too, noticed that Christian instructed Locke to “push” and he “pulled” instead. I thought for sure Christian would berate him for it, as he just finished making Locke feel like crap for allowing Ben to turn the FDW in the first place.

Did anyone notice that the name on the van was an anagram for “What in Tarnation??”

@mtncbn/137 “Comic con video established Changs baby as a boy.”
Did you mention that last week and I missed it? I thought for sure Charlotte was a Chang!

Gotta run! I heard somewhere that Survivor is on tonight ;)

#151. Posted by: Clementine at February 12, 2009 7:05 PM

@126. Posted by: PiecesofArzt
re: Spin Doctors

I hear what you are saying and agree, but the comparison is a little meh. Remembering a celebrity whom you have never met is unlikely, but imagine the case if you had met him personally - it would obviously have a larger impact, and therefore have a higher rating of importance in y'olde memory dept!

Rousseau's memory lapse is not that surprising, and might still even be explained further. Perhaps when Alex is abducted, she gets whacked behind the head, and therefore confuses things?

Hmmmmmm - Locke and Aaaron - each could be seen as a "little Prince" - perhaps there were "Two Princes"? Or maybe this is but a side effect of the radiation coming from my pocket full of kryptonite....

#152. Posted by: shikotee at February 12, 2009 7:11 PM

@152

Is that a pocket full of kryptonite or are you just happy to see us?!... (someone had to say it)

Are you all getting freaked out by the picture of Charlotte and her crazy eyes???

#153. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 12, 2009 7:18 PM

To the writer of this review and last weeks...It was called "Jughead" because the bomb had "Jughead" written on the side of it. They used to do stuff like that in the WW II era.

#154. Posted by: Sanderson at February 12, 2009 8:29 PM

C'mon Sanderson @ → 154. ...you must be joking, right?!

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

#155. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 12, 2009 8:35 PM

@149/Cecil Rose: "I've been assuming the Orchid was built on the ruins of the temple. Aren't they both over the FDW?"

No, they are not. The Orchid station was built by Dharma circa 70's. Rousseau et al arrived on island in '88, and the Temple is still there, with no sign of the Orchid. Ergo, the Orchid was NOT built on the ruins of the temple. Also as I mentioned earlier, it does not fit with the geography of the island we have seen, nor with previous "map" clues we've been given (i.e., the Temple is near the beach on the opposite side of the island from where the Losties beach was located [hence Jin's inability to identify where he is on the island, cause he's never been over there before], and the Orchid/well/FDW is known to be somewhere in the middle of the island jungle).

@137/mtncbn:
"Next flash. Well appears not dug yet(or created by alien beam tool). FDW is in existence with no sign of well from bottom either. Do the caverns lead anywhere else?. Is this way in the past??"

I've given this some thought, and do NOT think this is in the distant past, for several reasons. First of all, based upon Charlotte's hint about the well, and the fact the well was there before the Orchid was built, I conclude the flash to the well happened sometime before the 70's (when Orchid was built) ... but HOW much before? We don't know, but we also know it (the well) was there in the not-too-distant past, or Charlotte wouldn't know about it, nor of its significance (she seems to know the Orchid was built there, and that the well leads to the FDW) ... I suggest the flash to the well was post 1954, but pre-Dharma.

Second, when Locke meets Christian in the FDW cavern, there are "recent" 19th century era lanterns, let alone the FDW itself (i.e., this is NOT a flash to the very distant pre-metal-working archeological past, or these items [from the Black Rock? ... probably ...] would not be there). Therefore, when the flash occurs with Locke underground, and Sawyer tugging on the entombed rope, it MUST be post Black Rock (at least circa). As the well appears much older, and we know it existed until the 60's at least (via Charlotte), the only reasonable conclusion is that this flash must have been to a time POST-Orchid.

Now, I have no "proof" of this, but I assume the well was destroyed during construction of the Orchid (or perhaps during The Incident?), and in the process sealing the FDW cave off from up above.

Therefore, I suggest that the "Sawyer holding the rope stuck in the ground" flash, with Locke down in the cave with Christian, happened well after the Orchid was built, but apparently "before" Ben crashed into the cave from the Orchid last season. As such, the timeframe could be anywhere between the Dharma days and 2004.

I point this out, because it is still consistent with my previously stated theory that all the time skips have happened between 1954 and 2008 (both when they found the well, and when the ground swallowed Locke).

In fact, it makes a great deal of sense that this is true.

BTW, the FDW looks less like a "donkey wheel" than a ships helm circa the Black Rock (WAY too small to accomodate donkeys in the sense of a donkey mill ... these would be tens of feet across, as I recently saw evidence of in St. Croix sugar mill ruins).

Thus, we have not seen the last of the Black Rock, IMO ... There will probably be SOME kind of explanation for how the wheel of the Black Rock got so far underground, and why. Can't give an explanation now, but see it coming eventually.

#156. Posted by: ealgumby at February 12, 2009 8:59 PM

@84 and others regarding changing the past: This is quickly becoming another JWTB it seems. There has been no single instance on the show thus far where we saw the same (past) event happening in two different ways. We have seen events from different points of view and we have seen events that seem to suggest that people's memories are completely screwed up when it comes to remembering time travellers, but we have not seen anyone 'change the past'. In other words 2005-Daniel always knocked on Desmonds door in 2000-something, 2005-Jin always was present in 1988 to help the Frenchies, 2005-Locke always was there in 1954 to give Richard the compass (I'm still not sure though what that was supposed to do, we didn't see Richard recognise the compass, and if he did, how could he???), etc. etc. etc. The events as portrayed on the show are perfectly compatible with having one unchangeable past. So future events cause past events, so be it. There is something tricky going on with memory though. Obviously the memories of meeting a time traveller do not always stick. Although they might pop up again at a later date, like with Desmond or seemingly with Charlotte. And with Richard (since he visited Locke as a kid), unless he never forgot...

Hmmm... could that be why Miles doesn't remember his time on the island? Perhaps he was constantly in the company of time travellers, thus screwing up his memory.

@67: Random name connection to Charlotte's dad: Libby's husband, who died of a mysterious disease, was called David.

@86: Yes, the ring too. I forgot that one in my previous post. Another clue towards Ben=Locke? Also consider the emotional (or faked?) response from Ben in the van in last night's episode. He's trying to help them... or so he claims. What if he is Locke?

@86, re Charlotte's Hannibal line: I think she said Carthage, not Asia. Carthage was in what is now Tunisia, in north Africa. Hannibal (the one with the elephants, not the cannibal) was a Carthaginian (sp?). At least, he was a commander for that empire, I'm not sure if he really came from the city itself.

I reached post #89. Need to go and do other things now, so apologies for any JWTBs that were addressed in later posts.

#157. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 12, 2009 9:15 PM

@141

you are correct sir! the longer theO6 are away, the more severe the consequences of the jumps are. ie bigger headaches, louder sounds, pretty much all heck breaking loose. I'm sure Locke will be telling this to Ben when he tracks him down at the local Starbucks sippin on a venti machiatto sin nutmeg. and of course Ben will use this info to persuade Sun, Kate and Sayid to come along for the ferry boat ride back to the island. Jack will be carrying Aaron and Hurley will have his back pack full of ding dongs and twinkies more than happy to get back with the hopes of finding out that Libby is still alive because they jumped back in time and were able to stop Michael before he shot her.(Ana Lucia will still be dead, but they'll stop Libby from goin back there after hearing gun shots...who follows the sounds of gun shots?)

Speaking of Michael, who else thinks that he totally got off the boat in time since Christian Shepard was there to tell him"you can go now Michael"...sorry to say it, but me thinks we havent seen the last of walts papa.

really enjoyed the show this week, can't wait to prove or disprove all our theories!!

#158. Posted by: marls at February 12, 2009 9:15 PM

My theory is that Jacob is John Locke from the future...

#159. Posted by: Ted at February 12, 2009 9:17 PM

@156/ealgumby -

Catching myself before someone else might mention it ...

The FDW does NOT really look like a Black Rock era ship's helm ... but it DOES look like a Black Rock era ship's capstan, which I suggest it is ... that is all.

#160. Posted by: ealgumby at February 12, 2009 9:20 PM

@140/susiew: As far as I can tell, constant making is random.

@142/Staci: Eloise seems not to know that Desmond is not an O6er and Ben is certainly not going to tell her when he thinks it gives him an advantage over her. Especially since he just found out that she is Faraday's mother.

#161. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 12, 2009 9:24 PM

I think that when we see Faraday at the Orchid is him traveling back in time....FOOM! The rest of the Frosties are there, hiding in the jungle somewhere.

#162. Posted by: So_Lost at February 12, 2009 9:31 PM

I am curious to see if they show anything involving Locke's time off the island. Supposedly, he's been in contact with some of the O6? Something I found interesting is that Locke shattered his leg right before 'leaving.' This could seemingly put him back in a wheelchair once he's back in the states, hence, making him only able to walk on the island.

You know you're a Lost Junkie when...

you're leaving for vacation to Puerto Rico and already can't wait until next Saturday to get back to catch next Wednesday's Lost on the DVR!

#163. Posted by: Steve at February 12, 2009 9:35 PM

Was Ben surprised that Eloise is Faraday's mother or was he surprised that Desmond knew that Eloise is Faraday's mother? I'm not sure and I don't have tivo so I can't rewatch it.

I think it's safe to say that was not Montand yelling for help from Smokey's lair. So, I'm wondering if the call for help,which was a bit less than one would expect from someone who just had his arm ripped off, is an indication of: 1.Smokey had no idea Montand's arm was ripped off or 2.Smokey knew Montand's arm was ripped off but has no sense of what that means. What does it tell us about the nature of Smokey?
It reminded me of a sociopath who cries without tears over their missing child and has no sense of how obviously fake it is to non-sociopaths.

Re: Rousseau and her lack of memory of Jin.... I don't know that I believe she didn't remember Jin. She might have been crazy, but Danielle was not stupid.
Jin vanished into thin air right before her eyes; that would give you pause. Danielle was not a trusting person and she was more than a little cautious bordering on the paranoid. Clearly, Jin did not recognize her back in whatever season he met her. So it might be that Danielle was observing, fully aware of who he was.

#164. Posted by: undaunted at February 12, 2009 10:30 PM

C'mon Sanderson @ 154. ...you must be joking, right?!

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
155. Posted by: lost2theworld

I was considering copyrighting the anguished scream, but by now it's pretty much public domain . . . and anyway - you DID do a really good job portraying the angst . . . so, lost2theworld, as they always say about vocabulary . . . use it twice and make it your own . . .

However, you can't have my acronym. "ANDS" is still all mine . . .

I'm feeling warm and fuzzy right now.

Have a great weekend.

#165. Posted by: davidrh at February 12, 2009 11:46 PM

@→ 165. davidrh

O.K., deal. I won't use ANDS but you have to tell me what it stands for...I don't remember. It doesn't have anything do with your warm fuzziness, does it?

#166. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 13, 2009 12:02 AM

I'm stuck, not skipping, on the well.

Christian telling Locke that Ben had knocked it off its axis, would make this early 2005. The ceiling of the cavern still being natural rock would make the surface time with the gang at the well future, probably far, as there where not even ruins of the orchid. Charlotte was born 1979, about half way through dharmas time of 1970 to 1992, so the post orchid knowledge of the well had to be something the crazy old man (Daniel) told her.

#167. Posted by: mtncbn at February 13, 2009 12:19 AM

@99, re con Ben=Locke: What does time travel have to do with it? I'm not hypothesizing that Ben is John from the future or something like that. More that somehow what we percieve to be Ben in the O6 off island story line is actually John. You see, makes perfect sense, no? :)

@100: I don't remember now, did we see a time jump yesterday after John pulled the 'either unfrozen or in a not specified future to be frozen donkey wheel'? One could speculate that since John seemed to make the wheel unstuck, the island is not jumping again, the current on-island Losties and Frosties are stuck in the past. If that is the case my guess is they are stuck in Dharma time, hence we see Daniel in the Orchid under construction and Daniel has a chance to meet a young Charlotte. Moreover, if that is the case, than the donkey well is not unfrozen, but not yet frozen. Something to do with the Incident? And perhaps Adam and Eve are two Losties or Frosties who die in the caves before they all find a way to jump forward in time again. Unless they never find a way... (Actually, shouldn't the skeletons also time jump if they belong to skippers?) Are the whispers coming from not skipping Losties/Frosties, but L/Frosties watching their past lives being lived all over again?

@101: Didn't we decide some time ago that time travel = Red Pain, which showed us that JWTB. It was a case of 'broken wings' in the first place that started all this.

@111: And another CR=RC :)

@112: What you're saying concerns whether people remember it, not whether or not it happened.

@116: Ah yes, sorry for repeating. But I'm not going to delete my comment above. ;)

@134: LOL

@137: Makes you wonder who built the well. Probably not Dharma. And the well seems much newer than the Donkey wheel...

@139: Ben never was in charge of Dharma.

@152: They should all listen to Ji Yeon then, since little miss can't be wrong.

@155: I think there was literally the same post last week (wasn't there?), so yeah, joke seems like a safe bet.

@156: No matter when the scene took place, at some point someone is going to come across that rope sticking out of the ground. That would be a nice surprise. :)

@163: Nice observation about Locke's leg!

#168. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 13, 2009 12:29 AM

@167: Good point. The FOOM that made the well disappear was a FOOM to the past, since the cave ceiling was rock, not filled up dirt (I think). But that was the last FOOM we saw until Locke pulled the wheel, wasn't it? So why was the wheel skipping if this was before Ben screwed it up. It couldn't have been after, since the Orchid wasn't built yet at the time of the well, so before the well is also before the Orchid, which means before Ben's little FDW stunt.

#169. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 13, 2009 12:35 AM

The way that time travel is used here, it seems that (assuming it can be controlled) Faraday's Journal (for example) could be filled with information simply by having the forethought "Later I'll write down all the information I find, go back in time and leave it right HERE in this tree". After reaching into the tree, there is the completed journal. Now of course that we have completed journal in the present, there is no reason to do the research and actually write it out (there may actually be two present-time journals--one completed, one in-progress) I only have to remember (later) to take the completed journal to a point earlier than now and leave it for me to find right now. The original journal still exists, but the completed journal enCOMPASSes all the information!

#170. Posted by: jeffm at February 13, 2009 12:39 AM

@170: With the notebook as such that might work (within the established rules), but why would the information in there be true?

#171. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 13, 2009 12:51 AM

re: The Well

For whatever reason, when I first watched it, I somehow thought that Locke traveled forward in time. I guess my assumption was that the well was filled up once the Orchid was built. On second viewing, I see how it could make sense that he went further in the past.

Still - does it not make more sense that he went forward?

re: Christian Sheppard

So let me get this straight.... the guy who arrived on the island via a casket is helping the other guy leave the island, only to possibly return in a casket? Weird!

#172. Posted by: shikotee at February 13, 2009 1:27 AM

@168. Posted by: Plain Simple

Touche!

#173. Posted by: shikotee at February 13, 2009 1:29 AM

Has to be two temples. Rousseau would have never agreed to go to smokey's lair.

#174. Posted by: mtncbn at February 13, 2009 1:34 AM

@171: Why wouldn't it be true? I fully intended to do the research when I made the decision, reached in and grabbed my journal, then got lazy and decided to just drop this one back in time instead. Besides, I didn't really want to dirty up my original journal.

If the information is false, how did that happen?

By the way, I've tried this. I can safely say that this method of time travel is not possible. At least within my lifetime...

#175. Posted by: jeffm at February 13, 2009 1:38 AM

Finally caught up with the posts. Wanted to add my 2 cents.
1. I am in the camp that believes that events have always happened as we see them. Jin always stopped Danielle, Daniel always talked to Desmond. I cannot however explain the reasoning or lack thereof in Desmond suddenly remembering his conversation with Daniel. I don't think it means that the past was changed, because relative to the normal time line the O6 are on, Desmond would have remembered it 1-2 days after the freighter explosion because it was 1-2 days after the explosion that Daniel talked to Desmond. WOW. I hope my feeble attempt to put those thoughts into writing is somewhat intelligible.
2. I was fortunate enough to be able to watch some of S1 today while at work and noticed something. Way back in Kate's first flashback epi she is in Australia on the lamb and is taken in by Ray. If you'll recall, Ray was missing his right arm. He addresses it and Kate even pulls his prosthetic off after the car crash. Jump to Candle (I'm not callin' him Chang) in one of the orientation vids missing, or feigning to miss, one of his hands. Next, many posters have pointed out that Vincent was using old Rog's arm as a chew toy. This was post-mortem, but I'm including it. Lastly, that I can remember, Montand's arm is forcefully removed from his body by Smokey. That is at least 4 armless guy's in our Lost World. Maybe the statue is of a 4 toed, 1 armed race. Most assuredly means nothing but I found it interesting.
3. While watching S1 I came across an interesting fact. When arguing over how much Michael knows about Walt, Walt yells something like, "I bet you don't even know my birthday!" Michael replies, "August 24th," the same day that my daughter was born. My wife and I are keeping an eye out for any birds dive-bombing our house or vehicles being set on fire.

Sorry for the long post and Namaste

#176. Posted by: Not an Other at February 13, 2009 1:48 AM

I am assuming that Locke going down and turning the wheel was in the distant past. I think the wheel follows different rules than other inanimate objects on the island. I think the status of the wheel (skipping, not skipping, etc) is tied to 'right' time, meaning current day.

@ 176- Not an Other

Hey, maybe Smokey was going around ripping toes off of people as well.. thus the 4 toed statue ;)

#177. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 13, 2009 2:21 AM

@156 ealgumby exposited:

>@149/Cecil Rose: "I've been assuming the Orchid was built on the ruins of the temple. Aren't they both over the FDW?"

>No, they are not. The Orchid station was built by Dharma circa 70's. Rousseau et al arrived on island in '88, and the Temple is still there, with no sign of the Orchid. Ergo, the Orchid was NOT built on the ruins of the temple. Also as I mentioned earlier, it does not fit with the geography of the island we have seen, nor with previous "map" clues we've been given (i.e., the Temple is near the beach on the opposite side of the island from where the Losties beach was located [hence Jin's inability to identify where he is on the island, cause he's never been over there before], and the Orchid/well/FDW is known to be somewhere in the middle of the island jungle).

How do you get around the fact that you go straight down from either one to reach the FDW, whether by elevator shadt or well shaft?

PS. I've always dreamed of chatting with someone who could use "ergo" in a sentence.

o~~~~~~~~
@160 ealgumby antignosticated:

>The FDW does NOT really look like a Black Rock era ship's helm ... but it DOES look like a Black Rock era ship's capstan, which I suggest it is ... that is all.

I believe if you check you'll find i said the same thing after last year's finale.

o~~~~~~~~

@163: Steve (or was it Scott?) said:

>You know you're a Lost Junkie when...

>you're leaving for vacation to Puerto Rico and already can't wait until next Saturday to get back to catch next Wednesday's Lost on the DVR!

They don't have "Lost" in Puerto Rico?

o~~~~~~~~

@179 notanother

Not another what?

o~~~~~~~~

Survivor review's up, for those as are interested. Click my name to go,

#178. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 13, 2009 3:06 AM

O.K., deal. I won't use ANDS but you have to tell me what it stands for...I don't remember.
166. Posted by: lost2theworld

It took me a bit to locate the original, but here it is, near the end of the "Great Jughead Debacle", compliments of hurling:

ANDS? Anybody notice davidrh screaming?
215. Posted by: hurling at January 30, 2009

#179. Posted by: davidrh at February 13, 2009 7:47 AM

@ ealgumby 156 & 160

I think you’re on to something here. The first time I saw FDW immediately thought of the Black Rock because it reminded me of a ship’s helm. But then I realized it’s too big and the shape of the arms wouldn’t fit. Although they seem to have some screws in the middle which could suggest some sort of appendix.

But the capstan it’s the right answer since it already is a rotating machine, used to apply force, which has to be pushed by men!

And this connects the dots that leads us to the Black Rock story.
Was Richard Alpert its captain?

#180. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 13, 2009 8:31 AM

@178/Cecil Rose:

The well and the Temple are NOT colocated! I do not understand why you think that is the case? Yes, the well is archeological, but that does not imply it has to be at the Temple (and it is NOT), any more than the four-toe statue, the pillars where Locke's dad was tied up, and the hieroglyphic door in Ben's basement need to be at the Temple simply because they are old.

The well and the Orchid ARE colocated, but do not seem to exist at the same time ... because the well was either destroyed to build the Orchid (likely) or destroyed by some other means before the orchid was build upon that site.

@169/Plain Simple:

It is VERY unlikely the FOOM that took Locke down to the FDW was in the past. He's why ...

As established, the well is very old ... when? Doesn't matter ... old. However, we see what are possibly/probably Black Rock artifacts (along with the ancient pillars, etc.) down in the FDW cave. Now, big leap here considering the subject matter of the show, but ... when Locke is in the FDW cave, both the ancient stuff and the newer stuff is in there as well (uh, he does turn the wheel, built into the ancient wall, after all!), so he MUST be somewhere (somewhen?) in time after the well was dug and the FDW was put into place.

So, unless you're arguing that all the stuff in the cave time-travelled down there to a time long ago before the ancients built the well, then it cannot be in the past when John FOOMed down there. Therefore, it must be in the "future" ... how far we do not know, but at least post well destruction. When Sawyer is left holding the rope, it would've been nice if we had seen the Orchid in the background to verify the timeframe, but such was not the case. So we are stuck guessing exactly how far into the future they went.

Anecdotally though, all the other FOOMs seem to have been within the last 50 years or so, and I assume this FOOM was as well (yes, it fits my theory for it not to be far into the future, so perhaps not 100% objective here, but it also fits the evidence we've seen on the show to date ... no distant time jumps forward or backward).

Why does the ceiling seem to be solid rock where the well "should" be? Could be we're once again giving the production staff too much credit with the details ... I suggest the well is simply filled/caved in, and TPTB just inadvertently gave it the appearance of being pristine.

For that matter ... the elevator trip down into the Orchid was LONG ... exactly how deep was this well supposed to be? Unreasonably, IMO, but I'll let it go, just as I'll let it go that Locke apparently fell almost all the way down and only broke his leg. With all the set inconsistencies we've seen, I wouldn't put too much weight into the ceiling of the cave appearing fresh.

#181. Posted by: ealgumby at February 13, 2009 8:32 AM

If the FDW is traveling with the skippers, which would kinda make sense, that fixes much of my disorientation. Thanks (or is that dischronoentation?)

#182. Posted by: mtncbn at February 13, 2009 9:17 AM

@→ 179.davidrh

It took me a bit to locate the original, but here it is, near the end of the "Great Jughead Debacle", compliments of hurling:

ANDS? Anybody notice davidrh screaming?
215. Posted by: hurling at January 30, 2009

Ahh...how quickly I forgot. I laughed the first time I read it. This time I literally laughed out loud. It was a good way to start my Friday. Thanks!

#183. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 13, 2009 9:23 AM

I don’t join in the blogging at this site, but there is another neat review of last Thursday’s episode at “lost-and-gone-forever.blogspot.com.” It’s very concise, but there are a couple of interesting speculations that I haven’t heard here yet.

Check it out.

#184. Posted by: davidrh at February 13, 2009 9:29 AM

* * * * * * * SPOILER ALERT! * * * * * * *


Season 6.
Final scene.

A plane with Ajira’s logo crosses the sky above (re)New(ed) Othertown.
A smoky jet-trail is spilling from the plane as it rumbles overhead. BLAM! The tail section snaps off and tumbles away from the fuselage (this time we don’t see Ana Lucia sneering). Front section screams towards land.

Jack, that finally accepted his Destiny as Other leader and Savior, instantly springs to action and shouts:
“Sawyer! You see where the tail landed?"
"Yeah, probably in the water” – he replies.
"If you run you can make that shore in an hour,"
Jack turns to the person standing nearby. "Sayid, get up there to that fuselage. There may actually be survivors ... and you're one of them. A passenger. You're in shock. Come up with an adequate story if they ask. Stay quiet if they don't. Listen. Learn. Don't get involved. I want lists in three days. GO!"
Sawyer and Sayid run off in separate directions.
Jack and Juliet are standing near one another. Jack, seeing a book in Juliet's arms, says: “So I guess I'm out of the book club,”

And it ends!
With all of us knowing that it’s only the start. Again.

#185. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 13, 2009 9:58 AM

This episode was AMAZING.

Now I shall read. =]

#186. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 13, 2009 10:14 AM

Two quick comments:

My first thought when Charlotte died was - will Miles 'read' her and find out her past. But, in previous episodes, we found out that Miles knew what Kate had done and he 'read' Michael when he came onto the freighter. So he must be able to read the minds of the living. Does he know more about Charlotte than he's letting on? Also, Charlotte mumbled something about not marrying an American. Did anyone else catch that?

Also, Christian Shepherd is changing his clothes. If he's a spirit, why? how? Did he really die - was it a trick to get Jack on that plane?

#187. Posted by: pebspostal at February 13, 2009 10:18 AM

@99 "Why does Smokey/Jacob only impersonate dead people/things? (Eko's brother, Jack's dad, Kate's horse, Frenchie One-Arm's voice, Mr. Rousseau"

Kate's horse is DEAD? Waaaaah!

#188. Posted by: Glostover at February 13, 2009 10:33 AM

I'd think that Locke fell into a time prior to the well being dug. If it were after then the rocks that filled in the well would have fallen all of the way to the bottom, not stopped and left room below to walk under. So the smooth ceiling surface is one of an as-yet unbroken opening to the surface.

I agree that the ride down via the Orchid elevator was implied to be considerably longer than the apparent distance that Locke traveled down the well to get to the bottom.

Regarding Locke having an open compound fracture and then traversing immediately to the non-island world upon turning the NFDW, hopefully they will resolve this open issue in a future episode.

I don't think the NFDW is really the same wheel as from the Black Rock, just similar in appearance, but that's just IMHO. I know there are no coincidences in this show but sometimes things are just what they are and if they resemble something else on the show so be it. As usual I qualify this with the statement that I'll likely be eating crow on this one in a future episode. Being a Mets and Jets fan I'm used to being in the position of rooting for the losing side more often than not...

Oh, and yes, it'd definitely freaking me out seeing Charlotte's face at the top of this blog every time I come back. What's more disturbing, her face or the fat-turned-thin body in the ad?

#189. Posted by: LostedIt at February 13, 2009 10:36 AM

I forget.

Have we seen Desmond and Ben meet, before "this place is death"?

.......

#190. Posted by: AC at February 13, 2009 10:39 AM

When Locke went to turn the not-too-frozen DW, did anyone see the ladder that Ben came/fell down? So, maybe Locke was in past, before the Orchid. Also, curious that to get to the DW, both Ben and Locke "fell down" with injuries to both. Wonder if there is significance to that...?

So, watching CSI last night and Sojer Girl was on there and the first word to come out of her mouth when the CSI LVPD approached her was..."namaste". Freaky!!!

#191. Posted by: boodle at February 13, 2009 10:45 AM

Damon and Carlton offer their take on "This Place is Death" and provide non-spoiler tidbits about the next two episodes during this week's podcast.

You can hear the entire 14 minute podcast at tinyurl.com/2469cq , but here's a quick recap of the highlights.

WARNING: No actual spoilers, but if your goal is to avoid anything outside the scope of the show, this is the time to skip to the next post.

About "This Place is Death" :
---------------
They refer to the "hole" that Smokey drags Montand into as a "declivity" (defined as a downward slope)

Adding to the tragedy of Montand losing an arm is the fact that he was an aspiring violinist

What we saw was only a wall outside the temple. The actual temple is a short hike beyond.

The "declivity" isn't necessarily Smokey's home address - they call it his "Camp David"

Smokey definitely altered those who went down there - and not for the better..
--------------
Interesting and non-spoiler fact about next two weeks:
They are actually showing the next two episodes out of sequence - next week's installment "316" is episode 7, and "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" is really episode 6. They were written at simultaneously (by Damon and Carlton), and afterwards they thought it would be cooler for the fans to see "316" 1st.

The switching of episodes also happened once before in the series. They challenge fans to figure out which episodes, but hint that it's during Season 1

Other tidbits of far less significance to the show:

The whereabouts of Bpo Bpo (The dog Jin gave to Sun) is among the mysteries that will NOT get answered by the conclusion of the series.

If they had to choose ANY cast member to appear Dancing With the Stars, it would be Jorge Garcia

They consider Jar Jar Binks to be Star Wars' very own Nikki and Paulo

#192. Posted by: vacc at February 13, 2009 10:50 AM

In season 1&2 the thought on a lot of forums was that this was pergatory and that the OCeanic passengers all died. Now Charlotte proclaims that this place is DEATH. Is she actually saying that the Island is death and that the O6 leaving meant they escaped death. Sort of like Final Destination and must return back to where they DIED? It seems to be. Probably why Jin washed up because he is dead. he even tells John to tell sun that he is Dead, probably because he really is. Lots of hints regarding them actually being dead which they all might be. I think that's why Danielle was crying because he knew a lot of those passengers in the plane at the bottom of the ocean, but someone he is special in how he travels to and from the island. Almost like he got a second chance at life. Probably why no one is trying to kill Sayid but sedate him instead because he's already dead and shooting him won't do a thing.
Dead Jack daddy wants them all to return because he's death minion.
This all makes sense doesn't it? Sheesh!

#193. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 13, 2009 10:58 AM

@124 Lost Like a Mother theorized:

>I suspect that the reason the O6 and Des need to return is that each of them
serves as a constant for someone on the island. I.e. Kate for Sawyer, Des for
Farraday, Sun for Jin, Jack for Julia, etc. Just a thought.

OK, then who are Sayid, Hurly and Aaron for?

#194. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 13, 2009 11:05 AM

-142 Staci's comments about Des meeting up with Ben et al got me thinking.

The assumption seems to be that Ben was surprised at hearing that Mrs Hawkings is Daniel's mum...or surprised that Des knew this fact. Maybe Ben is REALLY thinking: "Why are you (Des) looking for her (Mrs Hawkings)?" Or maybe Ben is thinking: "Oh, good, Des is here with the message from Daniel." Or, "Oh, good, Des is here and now I can use him to get to Penny."

That Ben. You just never know what he's thinking.

#195. Posted by: lovelost at February 13, 2009 11:35 AM

Did anyone else find it "sinister" when Sun was talking to her daughter and said she had found a new playmate for her in America (meaning Aaron)? Maybe I'm just freaked out by the kick a** Sun.

#196. Posted by: Rudy at February 13, 2009 11:41 AM

@EVERYONE

Did you find it odd that no one heard Sun get out of her car and slam the car door closed but yet they heard the cocking of her gun. this was too funny.

Also when did Sun become all Gangster with the way he was holding the gun in the van. LOL. Sun's too much. What is she going to leave to the Island and leave her daughter behind?

#197. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 13, 2009 11:53 AM

I think the consensus around here has been that those that went into the "declivity" were definitely altered (altared?) in some way mentally. Glad D&C have confirmed.

If people on the island are dead (and I don't necessarily subscribe to this theory) then how are they able to return things (like Jin's ring) to the land of the living?

Speaking of his ring, I think the answer about who lied about Jin's request that Sun be told he was dead is still up in the air. One would think that Locke, as an honorable man, would have abided by his promise, especially if he actually forwarded the ring onwards. That leaves Ben (what else is new) as the ultimate source of the lie. Perhaps there is another intermediary in between that is involved, or perhaps Jeremy Bentham is in fact a different person/personality as some of us have posed in the past, and thus Locke's promise doesn't follow to the new individual, even if they look exactly alike. Or, perhaps Locke felt the need to get everyone back overrode his promise to Jin.

I'm still wondering whether Aaron and/or Ji Yeon (whatever) will go back or not as well. Certainly it would seem impossible for the latter given the distance she would have to travel to join the rest of the O6. One must wonder if Aaron would also stay behind, perhaps with Desmond ending up taking surrogacy for Kate/Claire.

#198. Posted by: LostedIt at February 13, 2009 12:00 PM

Assorted tidbits I've run across:

* The only actor who knows the entire story of Lost is Matthew Fox - I have no idea why.

* The only actor guaranteed by TPTB to make it right through to the end is Vincent.

Jeremy Bentham's body not only survives, but is on display at University College London:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Bentham-Project/Faqs/auto_icon.htm

#199. Posted by: Caelum at February 13, 2009 12:11 PM

@188. Posted by: Glostover

Not sure if I am convinced that Smokey and dead ghosts are one and the same. Smokey is the muscle, whilst whoever/whatever is behind the dead ghosts is the brains. I imagine this will be the case once we finally learn more about the temple and what is going on...

@198. Posted by: LostedIt

I do not believe that Locke will break his word to Jin. Hence why he gave the ring to Ben, so that he could convince Sun to return. This allows him to technically keep his promise....

#200. Posted by: shikotee at February 13, 2009 12:19 PM

Previously we had the correlation of which Lost characters matched up with characters on Gilligan's Island. How about who on Lost=characters from Hogan's Heroes...
Locke is definitely Col. Klink

Hurley--Schultz

Sawyer--Richard Dawson

#201. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 13, 2009 12:47 PM

@163 You know you're a Lost Junkie when...

you're leaving for vacation to Puerto Rico and already can't wait until next Saturday to get back to catch next Wednesday's Lost on the DVR!


Steve, I know the feeling....I was on the Disney Magic during the first two episodes.....

Len

#202. Posted by: Len at February 13, 2009 1:02 PM

Crispy - Ooh ooh I got one...

Rousseau = LeBeau (French)

And one more...

Ben = Hogan (Plans always work)

#203. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 13, 2009 1:08 PM

In the last episode of S4, where Ben turns the FDW, is the section of the cave visible where injured Locke and CS were talking in 5-5. If there is a wall there it might be a good clue as to just "when" things happened down there.

Len

#204. Posted by: Len at February 13, 2009 1:13 PM

Guess I'm required to say - long time lurker, first time poster. Love this place.

So maybe Rousseau was always supposed to die - Jin going back in time merely kept it from happening sooner? Before Jin went back, the storyline was that she went down the Smokey hole. Like Desmond stopping Charlie from his inevitable death. Of course Danielle got 16 years more life from Jin's visit.

Noticed that as Charlotte started her mind trips, said the same thing "Dream Claire" said to Kate in Aaron's bedroom - "Don't you Dare bring him here" - or something to that affect.

#205. Posted by: WolfMom61 at February 13, 2009 1:16 PM

Could this whole story be nothing more than an attempt by someone (Ben) to change the past so that the future will be as is wished?

Len

#206. Posted by: Len at February 13, 2009 1:17 PM

I'm thinking Charlotte is another offspring of Christian Sheppard. He just seems to be tied to the entire story more and more.

#207. Posted by: opserc at February 13, 2009 1:25 PM

Did I miss something? Have we heard that the Orchid was built where the Temple was? It seemed to me that the Temple was pretty far from the Orchid. They're all at the Temple, they head towards the Orchid, they hike, Charlotte collapses, they hike some more, and end up at the Orchid. Someone fill me in?

#208. Posted by: Not an Other at February 13, 2009 1:43 PM

Sorry, I realize they weren't "at" the Temple, but they were relatively close to it when they met up with Jin, were they not?

#209. Posted by: Not an Other at February 13, 2009 1:46 PM

I'm not dead, yet!"

This is the good news that Lost's fire-haired vixen Rebecca Mader (Charlotte) has to share with fans, the morning after we saw her face-plant into her own blood on the increasingly trippy time-tripping series.

Full article at eonline.com

#210. Posted by: Rudy at February 13, 2009 2:11 PM

It seems like they're inconsistent with their time travel rules.
I was ok with Daniel talking to Desmond and Desmond not remembering it until the present because it had never happened before.
But how it is that Charlotte remembers seeing Daniel in her past when he hasn't gone back and met the younger Charlotte yet?
It would suggest that this is how things have always happened. That Daniel was right that things are set and can't be changed. As Charlie wrote on his fingers "FATE".
Daniel always did talk to Desmond at the hatch.
Jin always did save Danielle from Smokey.
Charlotte always did meet Daniel in her past though he has not done so yet. He is fated to do so.
OMG my head is spinning.
So if Daniel always did go back and talk to Desmond, I'm back to wondering why Desmond didn't remember until 3 years after leaving the island.
And if Jin always saved Danielle and she saw him disappear 2x--I would think she would have had quite the reaction when she saw Jin again 16 years later.


Oh and my nomination for this week's JWTB is--TAWRW--The arm was Roger Workman's.

#211. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 13, 2009 2:25 PM

Thanks guys, now everytime I think or look at Lost I hear the Hogan's Heroes tune going through my head!!

Does anyone know why this episode wasn't called "Jughead"?

#212. Posted by: meg at February 13, 2009 2:36 PM

Jughead was what Faraday called his mom.

#213. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 13, 2009 2:47 PM

@211

Do you remember a few episodes back when Dr. Chang and crew uncovered the wheel and they flashed to one of the engineers as being Danielle. Danielle was already in the past before the FDW was turned by Ben.

#214. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at February 13, 2009 2:51 PM

This is no answer, obviously, but think about this. You develop some device that allows time travel. You have a good friend named Joe. You go back to before you met Joe. Six hours after you began your time travel, you are responsible for Joe's death, in the past. Some of you are suggesting that present Joe would somehow continue to live until six hours after the time travel began. NO. He would have been dead. You would have no memory of him because you never met him. Does this make logical sense, or should I check my nose for blood?

#215. Posted by: Not an Other at February 13, 2009 3:49 PM

--213 ransom

...and his rat!

#216. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 13, 2009 3:49 PM

Jughead was an Archie comic character that used to call everything "da bomb!". He spoke to friends that weren't in the comic panel and they talked back to him in italics. He drove a truck with a picture of an arm on it holding a feather and called macaroni, which is an anagram for reincarnation. He was always meant to eat hamburgers and have nosebleeds, so he does. He sings Elton John's song 'Daniel' whenever his friend Eloise comes over for some Dharma beer, and the house is always Smokey from the Dharma hashish. His notebook and compass keep disappearing, but that's ok because WAAAALT tells him so. Due to a paradox inside a conundrum wrapped in an enigma, he is his own father, grandfather, and grandmother. For some reason when he wears eyeliner he stops aging and has a craving for boar. He grows orchids in a pot with pictures of wheels and donkeys all over it, but he doesn't understand why it ices over all of the time. He's considering a career in medicine, but has persistent unfounded fears of his dead father talking him into 'going back', to where he doesn't recall yet but he knows some day some how he will.

#217. Posted by: LostedIt at February 13, 2009 4:15 PM

I thought Ben's reaction to Desmond knowing that Eloise is Daniel's mum was because he was shocked that Desmond knew that, not that Ben didn't know it.
Because - I am in the camp that thinks that Ben has done (lived) all this before, and that every time before Des did not show up. So, just like Alex being killed - Ben did not expect it (and Daniel just (2004-5?) made it happen this time trip/skip by talking to Des in the hatch)...

Also - I noticed that the FDW was not so F also, but thought that as Locke was pulling it, it became more frosty....

#218. Posted by: LostinVT at February 13, 2009 4:17 PM

When Desmond sat up with a new memory, my initial thought was that maybe the rules of Quantum Leap apply. After skipping (Leaping), you have swiss cheese memory. That is, your memory is full of wholes and you remember and forget things at random. However, they have already skipped (Leapt) outside of their own lifetime, but so did Sam once. Is it bad that all of my assumptions about time travel are based on either Quantum Leap or Back to the Future?

#219. Posted by: Not an Other at February 13, 2009 4:27 PM

→ 217. Posted by: LostedIt at February 13, 2009 4:15 PM

Awesome post. I now have tears rolling down my face mixed with blood from my nose. Cannot stop laughing or bleeding.

You are da bomb!

#220. Posted by: lovelost at February 13, 2009 4:28 PM

Post #217

That was hilarious!

#221. Posted by: Rudy at February 13, 2009 4:42 PM

@205: It's quite normal for people to die, so yes, also Rousseau 'should have died' at some point. Perhaps Richard is an exception on Lost...

@211: I totally agree with that view. It seems to make sense to me. Just a few additions: Who says Charlotte only remembers Daniel's past warning now? It's not like the characters on Lost are very forthcoming with what they do or do not know. She also kept (mostly) to herself that she was on the island before, didn't she? And she knew that all along, since apparently that was the reason she became an anthropologist (why, I have to wonder, wasn't some nautical profession better suited to search for an island?). Second thing: it seems that meeting a time traveller screws with the memory. We've seen that with Desmond and it is a likely explanation for Rousseau-Jin. Plus, if Charlotte really didn't remember past-Daniel, she is also an example of that. This is not too much of a stretch, since it has been established that memory loss and time travel (and a general screwing up of the mind) are related on Lost.

Otoh, Richard seems immune to this, but then he also seems immune to aging and people's comments about his eye lashes, so who knows what else he can take without so much as a blink of the eye (lash) or bleeding nose.

@212: I guess I should be glad I don't know what Hogan's Heroes is? :)

@214: I, as many others, have a feeling that that Daniel (not Danielle, I guess?) will end up there in a future FOOM. or perhaps he got there via the last FOOM in TPID.

@215: The way time travel is presented on Lost, you cannot kill Joe in the past, because if that is what you do, than that is what has always happened and so you could never have known a future Joe, since Joe didn't live to see the day where you started time travelling. According to the laws of physics in the Lost story (at least according to what we have been told thusfar) what you suggest just cannot happen. Comparison: I go to a furniture store to buy a sofa but I cannot chose between two sofas. So I buy them both and I put them both in the same place in my living room. O my god, paradox! I have two sofas taking up exactly the same place in my living room. How can this be? Well (sofa's being made of fermions), it cannot, and you would never suggest that it could, because your everyday common sense tells you that this cannot happen. One point in space has room for at most one particle (sofa, table, television showing Lost, etc...). Extend this thinking. Don't think of 3D space, but 4D space-time: every point in space-time has room for only one event. At a specific place at a specific time only one thing can happen. It doesn't matter if you can or cannot freely travel to that point, still only one thing can happen there. Hope that makes more sense out of it. Always taking into account of course that I'm talking here about how Lost up till now seems to present time travel, not how it would work if it actually were/is possible in the real world. And even on Lost they might show us something in a future episode that contradicts this, but so far they haven't as far as I remember.

@217: Great recap of where we're at with Lost. :) LOL

#222. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 13, 2009 5:16 PM

Just read that Dollhouse (the new Whedon series) premieres tonight on Fox (thanks to Rudy above for referring to eonline.com, or I would have missed that). Just thought to share that with you, in case you're interested.

#223. Posted by: Plain Simpleq at February 13, 2009 5:20 PM

@ 217 lostedit...by gum by gosh by golly I think you've nailed it right on the head. Excellent job.

I can see Locke singing I'm My Own Grampa...

And all the Losties in The Holy Grail, "I'm not dead yet..."

#224. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 13, 2009 7:16 PM

@175: Well, the process by which I envision these kind of things to happen, if you want a somewhat plausible (...) physical explanation is not by sheer will of a person (it's no magic) but by a process like Hawking radiation. I don't have time to go about and explain the details (in as far as I am the right person to do that anyway), but the idea is that a particle-antiparticle pair spontaneously come into being (as they can, that's no speculation, afaik these things have been experimentally measured). Normally after only a fraction of a second they would annihilate as well, but if this happens close to the event horizon of a black hole, the antiparticle might fall into the black hole, leaving suddenly a real particle in the universe without anything to annihilate with (ooohhh poor particle). Now here comes the major leap: it is very very very very very very very (and then some) unlikely that a completely working anti-matter compass and matter-compass (or note book or whatever you want) just spring into existence. It is so unlikely that it's safe to say that it's practically impossible... But this is the island, isn't it. So what if that's just what happens. But then, why don't they annihilate? Where does the anti-compass go? Well, it's been theorized that black holes actually are not just the big things in the sky, but there are little version as well. Remember, this is what some people where so scared about when the LHC at Cern was started up some months ago. Now what if such a little black hole comes flying past just at the right moment to eat up the anti-compass, leaving only the compass? We would have a compass out of nothing.

But but... the compass--anti-compass coming into being is already very very very very etc. unlikely, how much more unlikely is it that at the same time a little black hole flies by (let alone one that is big enough to swallow a compass). Well, again very very very etc.

Bring in time travel. As many people have theorized, also in the context of Lost (I know that at the very least Doc Jenssen at ew.com keeps bringing it back from time to time), one mechanism for time travel might be via wormholes. You go in at one end, come out at the other in another time. Wormholes, which are sometimes conjectured to have a white hole on one end and a black hole on the other. There you go: time travel gives you a black hole, just where you want it.

O, on a side not: this vaguely would explain why it's a 'time travel no-no' to meet your own past self as someone above so poetically stated. :) If you have a matter-self and anti-matter self it's going to give a big boom when they meet. Slight point of criticism here: it's going to give a big boom with any kind of matter that comes into contact with the anti-matter, it hardly matters if it is another you or a bunny.

Now, to answer your question (yes, I'm coming to that): according to my ramblings above it is already very to umpteenth power unlikely that a notebook appears out of nowhere to begin with. Now a notebook with in it a true explanation of its own origins.... on a likelyness scale from reality to Lost, I'd say: way beyond Lost! :)

#225. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 13, 2009 7:30 PM

Time Travel, and the rationalization of...

I can't help but chuckle and groan at all the arguments related to time travel.

Who would have thought that the destruction of Gallifrey would cause so many problems!?!

Oh. So sorry. Wrong Show.

Perhaps we should take a cue from that rebirth, and explain things via "Timey Wimey" and whatnot?

But seriously - These types of unstable time jumps would never have happened under the watch of the Timelords....

#226. Posted by: shikotee at February 13, 2009 8:05 PM

sorry, someone made an interesting note, but I don't want to scan for it. I also found it very interesting how Sun talked about a new friend in Aaron. I feel there's something there that will prove important.
Things I'm looking for coming up...how or why is Faraday in the Orchard, seemingly trying to hide his identity from S05E01.
How does Kate come back to the O6?
Does Sayid?
Does Desmond mention Faraday to Hawking?
and, what goes on with Locke after he leaves the island?

#227. Posted by: Steve at February 13, 2009 10:08 PM

So, Charlotte says in her dying breath, "I moved away with my mum, just my mum, and I never saw my dad again and then when I moved back to England I would ask my mom about this place but she would say that it wasn't real and that I made it up...." So her mum is English....and Eloise is English... and I still think that Daniel and Charlotte are brother and sister and that's why he loves her. I wonder if Eloise was on the island from 1954 to 1979 when Charlotte was born. Would be interesting to find out when Eloise left the island....and why.

#228. Posted by: Skipper at February 13, 2009 10:12 PM

Christian says, "I want you to get all of your friends together and it must be all of them , everyone who left, and once you've persuaded them to join you this women will tell you exactly how to come back...."

This means that desmond has to come back too.... Christian said EVERYONE WHO LEFT!!

#229. Posted by: Skipper at February 13, 2009 10:22 PM

Sun = Dumb

Just b/c Ben gives her Jin's wedding band doesn't mean that jin is alive. Jin could have washed up dead on the beach... Ben took the band off his dead corpse and brought it with him to LA. Why does Sun believe the band to be proof of Jin being alive?... If it were me I'd need more than that, esp. considering Ben's resources. I would have said, "Bug-eye, please, you have over 3.2 million dollars, 75 passports, and all you can give me for proof is a wedding band? Surely you can show me some video (ala Juliette's sister with her kid at the playground) or something more impressive." yup, that's what I would say.

#230. Posted by: Skipper at February 13, 2009 10:29 PM

Hey, just a few things. LOVED the episode but really wish Rose and Bernard would be shown freaking out again trying to make fire.

1. Daniel now knows Charlotte will die so in a future jump (to good ole Dharma days) he finds little Charlotte and creeps her out.

2. Still don't think Ben is Charlotte's dad. He tried to kill her, and that's low even for Ben.

3. Miles was born on the island and doesn't know it. It somehow explains his affinity for reading dead people. His story reminds me of when characters have extraordinary abilities and they use them for petty crimes. Okay- I'm thinking of an example but you know what I'm talking about.

4. Smokey must get around through underground caverns. Dharma must have figured something out since they built the fence.

5. Didn't like Montand anyway. Chasing butterflies... eck.

6. Who is in who's camp is getting very confusing. Daniel is Ellie's kid but working with Widmore? huh????

7. I think next season they will a final jump (or something like it) where someone is tasking with getting all those people on that plane.

:)

#231. Posted by: EthansGirl at February 14, 2009 12:16 AM

@231 EthansGirl conjectured:

>3. Miles was born on the island and doesn't know it. It somehow explains his affinity for reading dead people.

You know this sort of meshes with a theory I've been nursing for some time, which is that, in some way, in this island, the dead live on somehow. And I've had this theory since some of the whispers transcripts became available, because one of the whispers was clearly Boone, after Boone had died.

All of the whispers seem to be observing and commenting on what the living are doing on the island, and this one I read was Shannon - still alive at that time - walking through the jungle and a whisper says "It's Shannon. Hi, sis!"

And that would mesh with the numerous 'dead-people' sightings, esp by Hurley: Charlie, Eko, Anna Lucia. Also Christian by Locke and Libby by Michael. And maybe all the Frenchies?

I'm not saying the dead still live (Darlton say "On Lost, dead is dead.) or that the apparent;y living are in purgatory and everyfody's dead - also denied by Darlton,

But the dead do manifest as seemingly intelligent and self-aware in some manner.

>His story reminds me of when characters have extraordinary abilities and they use them for petty crimes. Okay- I'm thinking of an example but you know what I'm talking about.

So if you could have the power of flight or invisibility, which would you choose? [g]

#232. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 14, 2009 12:35 AM

I am soooo tired and only to 43 or so.

I hope if you have all talked this to death you forgive me.

Maybe the look on Ben's face at the end of the very good episode is not that HE did not know Eloise was Faraday's mother but that Desmond DID know it. I think Ben is counting on Ben being the only one who knows what's going on on the island and the fact that Desmond may have info about this worries him. That is if Ben ever really worries.

Also, The Comic Con Video shows Candlewick etc. making a plea to the watchers of the video to come to the island and save them. There is a baby crying in the background and we saw the baby in this season. When Charlotte said she was born there etc, I immediately connected her to Candle etc. -Chang is his real name.- but the idea of her being someone else's daughter is more like what TPTB would do. Misgiude me and wham me in a future episode. Good catch.

#233. Posted by: berkyo at February 14, 2009 1:15 AM

@231, re 7: That would be kinda cool. I like that idea!

@232: Where can you find these transcripts? (Let me guess, Lostpedia?)

What if in some flash to the past one of the Losties or Frosties saw a fellow main cast member being killed (perhaps him/herself even) and thus figuring out that this person has been one of the walking dead all along. Probably not going to happen... :)

#234. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 14, 2009 1:32 AM

@ 222 Plain Simple-
I see what you are saying, bit it's kinda my point. If you are destined to change something in the past through time travel, it must be done. I kind of equate it to someone's (Sorry I can't remember who and am too drunk to look) post that if future travel is possible, then the time traveler loses free will. If you ever travel to the past, you must always travel to the past, so you have no choice about it. The major point I was getting at though is that the Desmond suddenly remembering his convo with Daniel is not, in my opinion, due to the conversation happening at the same time in the original, relative to viewers, time line.

Ok since that didn't make any sense, I will end with my agreement that the whispers haves something to do with the fact that time travel is happening on the island.

#235. Posted by: Not an Other at February 14, 2009 3:55 AM

Just doing some early morning trolling around the internet and noticed that our LOST MAP is working again!

#236. Posted by: davidrh at February 14, 2009 7:42 AM

Hi to all,

Glad to see it finally feels like everything is starting to tie in together.

Am loving the way TPTB have revealed Rousseau's back story even though she's no longer with us. Can't wait to see how they're going to reveal Libby's complete story now.

I'm trying to get my head around the timelines - Maybe someone can piece it together; then again I'm probably reading more into it but we're shown a tower of black smoke on the horizon when Jin "leaps" after the temple incident. Why is this there? What is happening to cause it? Can someone remind me of the purpose of the towering black smoke? And I don't mean smokey.

My memory's not what it used to be, but am I right that way back in S1 this was used by the Others as a signal before the Losties' camp got raided and various people got kidnapped?

If so, then what is happening elsewhere on the island at this point when Jin "leaps"? The extent of the decomposition of Montand's arm suggests that it isn't that long after his run in with smokey and we know Rousseau was on the island for sixteen years, so does this put this incident about 16 years before our Losties crash?

Hope I've explained that well!?

Also, will we ever find out what happened to Cindy the air hostess, and what her significance is?

Carlton and Damon, I haven't forgotten her!!!

Keep up the good work.

PS, Poor Locke's not very good with legs is here? How many different ways can one man injure them!?

#237. Posted by: Lost in Lost at February 14, 2009 9:17 AM

@Lost in Lost/237: "...we're shown a tower of black smoke on the horizon when Jin "leaps" after the temple incident. Why is this there?"

Rousseau told the Losties that three days after she gave birth to Alex, she saw a pillar of black smoke, and that night the Others kidnapped her baby.

#238. Posted by: Clementine at February 14, 2009 10:08 AM

DRH reported: "Just doing some early morning trolling around the internet and noticed that our LOST MAP is working again!"

And the Klingons are posting in the comments section. But, alas, they did not add a pin to the map. They would probably be Smokey fans.

#239. Posted by: Clementine at February 14, 2009 10:17 AM

@ Clementine (238)

Ah yes, I remember now. Much appreciated. I knew there was some sort of relevance.

Good work - Is that purely from memory? I'm impressed ;-)

#240. Posted by: Lost in Lost at February 14, 2009 10:34 AM

Hey CR, whadda ya think about the price of stamps going up 2 cents? Last year when someone posted about this and the fact that you can buy stamps now that can be used regardless of future increases, you dissed him - - saying something about inflation, etc.

I don't recall who the poster was - I think it was the guy who wrote the hilarious stories about Smokey and used all the Lost posters names.

#241. Posted by: smitty at February 14, 2009 11:36 AM

** Long Post Warning **

I thought the episode contained more filler than meat as the characters loafed toward their island reunion in a Scoobie Doobie sort of way.

A few observations before moving on to my comments.

We have to recognize that the island has mechanical elements to it. The FDW is a mechanical device, a wheel and an axis which opens high intensity light beams. Smokey, the security system, has mechanical sounds when it appears and attacks the islanders.

Where Smokey lives is not a Temple. It looks more like a small gothic church. The crudely drawn glyphs on the walls contain mostly unknown symbols (phonetic or determinative signs) remind me more of graffiti than important text. Besides, if Smokey was the guardian of this building, it would not have ingress-egress through a rat hole below the foundation wall.

The well was built after the FDW. Its construction bodes of stone and mortar. Well construction of this type would have been done in the Black Rock era not Dharma period. I suspect that the Black Rock survivors (Hanso) were digging this well and found the FDW.

During the pier 23 rendezvous, the camera quickly showed a boat in the corner named ILLUSION. An illusion is a false idea or belief; a deceptive appearance or impression; a thing that is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.

We have noticed that characters have been replacing each other’s roles during each game re-set: Christian has replaced Jacob; Locke replaced Ben as leader of the Others; Sawyer replaced Jack as leader of the survivors; Jack has replaced Frogurt (based on this last episode malaise); Juliet replaced Kate; and Kate has replaced Richard Alpert as the lead sales clerk of the mascara counter at the local Sears.

===

As with a show like Lost, there are three components in play: the story principles/mythology; the story mechanics; and the plot /struggle within the confines of the mythology and mechanics. The problem with the show is that the storytelling techniques are overwhelming the story. Trying to find a rational basis for all three components is the real mystery to the show. The conclusion: our perception is not the show’s true reality.

1. The mechanics of the island. I have found an alternative explanation to the worm hole, exotic matter theory: Tesla coils. It is interesting to note that Nikola Tesla, who was a Utopian thinker, was fascinated with the idea of light as both a particle and a wave, the fundamental proposition of what would become quantum physics. He had the idea of creating a "wall of light" by manipulating electromagnetic waves in a certain pattern. This mysterious wall of light would enable time, space, gravity and matter to be altered at will, and engendered an array of Tesla proposals that seem to leap straight out of science fiction, including anti-gravity airships, teleportation, time travel and an impenetrable forcefield (he conceived of a transmitter tower that could produce a dome forcefield). One of Tesla's better known experiments regards his famed Wardenclyffe tower. The coil, would re-amplify the earth’s natural electric current, and send it back into the planet to increase its power. After several cycles, Tesla's Wardenclyffe tower was producing millions of volts of electricity, and actually creating electrical arcs of up to 30 feet with a higher voltage than natural lightning.

I believe that the FDW and the Hatch are/were Tesla coils designed to alter time, space, gravity and matter, within the universe of the island. Both locations serve as gates to different levels of eternity. Both locations contained hieroglyphs which reference Egyptian beliefs in death. A Tesla coil, which is focusing energy into the ground, would explain why the Hatch “imploded” rather than exploding when Desmond used the fail safe key. The effect we see during the “time skips” is a huge wall of light that engulfs the characters perception of time and space.

In addition, the Numbers from the Hatch were thought to be part of the Valenzetti Equation. But it also could be part of the spells, charms or formulas of the ancient Egyptians who had a series of sacred or magical numbers: 2, 3, 4, 7 and their multiples and sums. The mechanics of imputing the Numbers in the Hatch was to avoid opening a closed gate from some dangerous situation from the underworld. The fail safe key implosion permanently sealed that gate so a deity could not use it to invade the island.

2. The Numbers. The ancient Egyptians had their sacred numbers. And a few had special meaning:
Three (3) meant plurality, meaning the triad of deities or a “complete system.” (This may be why Christian tells Locke to bring back all of the O6, so he does not forget Jack, the only one he cares about because with Jack, Christian would have made his triad with himself and Claire.)
Five (5) was the symbol for the star or pentagram which meant the afterlife. (Here we are in Season 5 Episode 5 and it is titled “This Place is Death.” A sledgehammer hint, perhaps?)
Seven (7) was the symbol for perfection, effectiveness and completeness. We thought 70 hours seemed an odd number for Hawkings calculation. But the number 70 has some context in Egyptian mythology: the underworld god of wisdom, Thoth, who knows everything about all things, tricked the moon god to add five calendar days in 70 seconds. (Thoth is one of the underworld gods who escorts the sun god through the underworld on each nightly passage. He would know everything about everyone in this domain.)

3. The principles of the island. The concept of “sacrifice” and dying in order to leave the island (the Kingdom of the Dead) is core to ancient Egyptian religions. When a person dies, the deceased goes to the Kingdom of the Dead where his ba (personality) joins his ka (body double) to regain movement and speech. The deceased is made “to live again so that they may arise, reborn, with the morning sun.” The souls who come here must work for the god of the underworld as payback for “protection” against danger and evil spirits or gods. There are twelve (12) sections of the land of the dead (or gates) to pass before arriving at final judgment. Arriving at one’s reward is said to be a demanding ordeal, requiring a “sin free” heart and the ability to traverse the trials of the underworld (with reciting spells, passwords,or formulae from the Book of the Dead.) Because of the dangers posed in this world, the deceased were buried with possession that they would need to protect themselves. (In Egyptian rites, you bring to the afterlife the material possessions you have at the time you die. The rule that the time skippers jumping only with the possession they have with them is like this Egyptian death belief.) Once the deceased completes his or her journey, he or she travels across the sky in the sun ark as one the blessed dead, and that evening travels to the underworld for final judgment before Osirus. Final judgment is either vindication (heaven) or eaten by a soul eater (to have a non-existence) Apep, is a god of the underworld that is the personification of all evil and darkness, shown as a giant snake or serpent, who attacks those souls who journey in his realm. This may be Smokey’s role in the island world.

4. Travel and Time. There is a simple principle unfolding on traveling to and from the island: you have to die. Which brings to the forefront the whole concept of death itself. When you die, are you really dead? Maybe as rites of passage, you have to have “multiple” passings or deaths (through the afterlife trials and gates) in order to be more enlightened (more a spiritual being). This concept of rites and ordeals of passage in the underworld leads to the final component: (I think that bringing an embalmed body into the island sphere creates a magical spirit - - - Christian, for example; and shortly, Locke). At the end of the episode, Mrs. Hawking has the sociopathic smirk of serial killer.

So I don’t believe we are seeing actual “time travel” as we perceive it. We are seeing immortal time being reconstructed from the entire wisdom and knowledge base of the world and all the lost souls. (Think, St. Peter at the gate of heaven or Thoth, the god of wisdom in the underworld, as knowing everything you did in your mortal life and storing that information for time of final judgment).

5. The conflict. If the island is the symbolic representation of the underworld, the relative conflict is who controls it. The hidden secrets, the ordeals, and the mind games (including the deals, with the devil so to speak) are elements to keep the lost souls on the island from figuring out what is really happening to them and the island. A good soldier just does what he is told to do. The island setting may be a micro sphere of such a conflict: who controls a segment of sacred, therefore, powerful location in the realm of the afterlife.

We have a mix of good, bad and evil. We also have a mix of strong religious belief systems. Ancient Egyptian, Judea-Christian and Utopian (Dharma). We have an ancient culture of souls (Alpert), in battle with arrivals of Dharma souls and now the 815ers. Since the deceased brings with them their personality and knowledge, it would also bring their beliefs . . . including humanity’s never ending Holy Wars. However, a person’s beliefs do not necessary create wisdom: the reality of what is really happening to them. Only those who understand their plight (being dead) can grow in wisdom and transverse the perils through this dimension towards peace. I think that Rose is the only 815er who understood their situation from Day One.

===

I believe that Locke would have lied to Sun about Jin. He would have told Sun that he buried Jin and took his ring to prove his story. Ben knew this, and would not allow it to happen. Ben believed (falsely) that he had to bring everyone back, including Sun. I think Ben killed Locke in order to take the ring to prove to Sun Jin was alive to get her back to the island. I believe Ben was surprised to learn that Hawkings plan could go forward without everyone. I also believe that Ben is unaware of the consequences of bringing “dead Locke” back to the island (to give John as much magic or power as Christian, who replaced Jacob, as the spiritual advisor to Ben and his people). Call it a plot twist, the law of unintended consequences. Hawkings may know that she has recruited a squad of avenging angels to take back control of the island for her purposes.

So I have continued to develop the clues hidden in plain sight to try to figure out the foundation and mystery of the series. I have concluded that this is not about the trials and ordeals of mortal existence, but the ordeals and passages toward immortal existence. It may not be purgatory, it may not be hell, but it certainly can be a combination of those locales combined with other belief system to create a new “Lost universe” where are perceptions of time, space, life and death have no determinative solution to the events unfolding in the story line.

#242. Posted by: welh at February 14, 2009 12:33 PM

New Rule: (suggested)

#7 - The comment on the review can't be longer than the review.
(see above)

#243. Posted by: ANON2 at February 14, 2009 1:57 PM

Great job filling in for Mac, Vacc! I'm arriving late to the party, so I won't repeat anything that's been said already. I do wish we will see more of the Temple though!

#244. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 14, 2009 2:05 PM

Rocking episode! I couldn't sleep the night after watching it because I was scared of Charlottes' eyes :(

Posible scene in an upcoming episode:

-Daniel: Hi, little girl, do you want some chocolate? I'll give you chocolate if you listen to what I have to say to you!
-Young Charlotte: I'm not allowed to eat chocolate before dinner (with creepy young eyes)
-Daniel: Oh, ok, but don't come back to this island!!! This place is death!!!

and that's how my career as a scriptwriter ends.

(if that scene actually happens, the coolest acronym will be: DWWOCC! Daniel Was Who Offered Chocolate to Charlotte!!!)

#245. Posted by: Julia at February 14, 2009 4:35 PM

at 168. Posted by: Plain Simple:
"@156: No matter when the scene took place, at some point someone is going to come across that rope sticking out of the ground. That would be a nice surprise. :)"

And that's probably why someone will decide to build a well there!

#246. Posted by: Julia at February 14, 2009 4:53 PM

I've only read up to post 96 here, and watched this episode twice, but regarding Jin's and Danielle:

- It does seem to me that Jin time traveled, but Danielle didn't even notice the flashing of the sky. When Jin was shielding his eyes from the bright light and looking up, Danielle didn't even notice at first. Finally she noticed Jin's strange posturing and looked directly at him, not the flashing sky, and then she asked him what was wrong. Then later at the beach, she just accused him of disappearing -- saying nothing of a flashing light . . .

- And about the time transpiring between Jin's "disappearance" and him returning to the beach shooting scene, before Jin goes to the beach, we see the arm on the ground. It still has flesh on it, but it has turned purple and become quite rotten. I've never watched meat decompose so closely, but I would guess that the arm looked two or three weeks or so old.

#247. Posted by: Greg Conquest at February 15, 2009 2:45 AM

Can someone PLEASE tell me what "TPTB" stands for? I've suffered in silence long enough.

#248. Posted by: Lost in Ra'anana at February 15, 2009 9:11 AM

@248

TPTB = The Powers That Be, aka Darlton, aka Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse

#249. Posted by: Daniel Denial at February 15, 2009 9:23 AM

@249
Thank you Daniel Denial.

#250. Posted by: Lost in Ra'anana at February 15, 2009 9:38 AM

@Greg Conquest #247 "I would guess that the arm looked two or three weeks or so old."

The arm is just as old as Montand - otherwise it would've been a baby arm.

(just kiddin - I know what you meant). It had been rotting for almost two months. Danielle told Sayid in season one (Solitary) that "Nearly 2 months we survived here, 2 months before.."

#251. Posted by: vacc at February 15, 2009 11:17 AM

@ 159. Posted by: Ted : My theory is that Jacob is John Locke from the future

I've seen this suggested before, only now I'm also starting to believe it.

Going back to Clementine's (#11) suggestion that "Christian couldn’t help Locke walk, because he is a manifestation of Jacob." If Locke really IS Jacob, then the reason he couldn't help himself relates to the Orchid Orientation video mishap where Halliwax screamed "Don't let them near each other" about the duplicate bunny 15's. Also, remember when Ben first took Locke to the cabin and told him to turn off the flashlight? His exact words were that "Jacob feels the same way about technology as YOU do."

#252. Posted by: vacc at February 15, 2009 11:26 AM

not only do I think Christian is not Jacob, I think he is the anti-Jacob

Christian tells Locke, Don't trust Ben. But I think Christian was attributing his own motives to Ben. It is counter productive to tell Locke not to trust Ben who knows where hawking is and is also trying to do the same thing Christian is telling Locke to do. They should work together to accomplish the task but Christian is trying to prevent Locke's cooperation with Ben off island.

The only difference is that Christian is insistent that Ben do things himself which requires Locke to go off island, whereas Ben is doing everything in his power to keep (get) Locke on the island: Christian told Locke he was supposed to turn the FDW himself the first time, which would have resulted in Locke going off island...Ben turned it for Locke, keeping Locke on island. Now Ben is working tirelessly to bring Locke's body back to the island while Christian has convinced Locke to turn the UFDW which will take Locke off island.

I'm thinking Richard totally blew it way back, when he tested Little Locke by asking him to identify the objects which belonged to him. He rejected Locke because Locke didn't choose the compass. But now we know that the compass never belonged to Locke so he was correct not to identify it as being his. Had Richard been aware the compass was not Locke's, Locke might have ended up on the island as a child.

Locke is supposed to be on the island.

It appears that Richard & Ben are working together. Christian is opposing them.

And another thing about Christian: The psychic tells Claire she must raise her own child right up until he makes a sudden and inexplicable 180 and tells her he has a couple in LA who will adopt the baby. Claire has her child,is raising him herself when what happens? Christian comes along and separates her from Aaron. Setting up Aaron to be raised by someone other than Claire.

Christian wanders around, showing himself to Jack, inviting Claire for tea and crumpets...he is not the same guy who plaintively beseeched Locke to help him.

Jacob is imprisoned. He's been contained somehow. Is LOST about breaking Jacob out of prison?

The smoke monster reminds me more and more of HAL from Space Odyssey... Intelligence without savvy or conscience. When "Montand" shouts for help the tone of his voice is inappropriate for a man who just had his arm ripped from his body while being dragged into a hole by a smoke monster. That's because Smokey doesn't have the capacity for emotion, compassion, empathy. Smokey only knows that under these circumstances, a person would call for help.

Yeah. It's Jacob's team: Ben,Richard, the Others vs Widmore's team: Abbadon, the Army of Darkness that killed Alex, and I suspect Sun's father is on that team as well.

And since both sides are struggling to recruit Locke, he has to be pivotal to their cause. Same with Aaron... both sides are struggling to gain control of who has Aaron.

Why it is essential to have all 6 of the off island people back...I don't know. Unless it is that some sort of orchestrated leap in time is going to be done and all 6 have to be there to leap to the same time/place at the same time.

#253. Posted by: undaunted at February 15, 2009 12:12 PM

I used to love this forum, there were categories where people left their messages and you could keep track of threads. Now it's all dumped into one long, endless column. What's do you all think?

#254. Posted by: TooMuch at February 15, 2009 5:44 PM

Ok, I just read all 254 posts, and I didn't see this mentioned specifically. I happen to know a bit about Egyptian hierogyphs, and there were clearly a lot of them visible on the stones that were near the temple. If anyone can point to some screencaps, it would be interesting to translate them and see if they actually say anything? My bet would be on "This place is Death", but hey, it could be worth a shot.

One of the more interesting points to me was the casual comment, "it's a security system for the temple." There is SO much in that simple statement!

1. How did they know it was a 'security system' at all? When was the last time you saw an out-of-control smoke cloud manifesting itself by ripping off arms and ended up calling it a security system?!?

2. How did they know it was a temple in the first place?

Seems to me there must be a fascinating little sequence (as yet unseen) where the French Foreign Legion do some additional exploring, perhaps even underground... but how would you survive being in Smokey's "home turf" I wonder?

It would take too long to discuss all the Egyptian implications forming up, but Smokey seemingly being a judge of the living (and the dead?) certainly ties into the same idea of Anubis in the Book of the Dead, where he weighs your heart to determine if you are worthy to enter the afterlife. He is also notably the god of the UNDERworld.

Hmm...

#255. Posted by: The Duf at February 15, 2009 7:24 PM

@The Duf/255: Here's a post on the hieroglyphs from DarkUFO...

tinyurl.com/b5ukvj

@undaunted/253: "Why it is essential to have all 6 of the off island people back"

I'm struggling with this, also. Why the 6, and not Des, Frank, or Ji Yeon? Obviously, other people have left permanently, like Widmore, Mrs H, and Charlotte's mom. Why was that not an issue?

From Mrs Hawkings comments to Ben about not having everyone there, but enough to start, I wonder if she needs the 6 to locate the island?

#256. Posted by: Clementine at February 15, 2009 8:02 PM

And do you think we'll ever see Walt again?

#257. Posted by: Clementine at February 15, 2009 8:03 PM

A - Almighty
J - Jesus
I - Is
R - Richard
A - Alpert

I know most times, "is" does not get included, but just had this thought the other night.

*****SPOILER*****

The anagram on the van is the word reincarnation. In the Ajira Airways website, one of the hex codes in the page source translates to John 3:16.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

316 is a flight on Ajira Airways website that I'm sure O6 will take to get back to the island. Richard Alpert is Jesus - Christian Shephard is God and John will receive everlasting life because he believed in God and will be reincarnated on return to the island.

#258. Posted by: Anagram Sam at February 15, 2009 9:33 PM

The name of the next episode is "316". Darlton wrote it as well as the next episode "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham". The original plan was to play the Bentham episode first, then 316, but they switched it.

316 = John 3:16
Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham = reincarnation?

#259. Posted by: Rudy at February 15, 2009 10:35 PM

Maybe the couple that Claire was going to take her new baby to in LA was Eloise and ???

Also, the reason that the O6 need to go back and the others don't is because they were brought to the island, and maybe the others weren't. Des kind of stumbled onto the island as did the French crew, and the boat people Frank and his passengers found the place.

I'm thinking that a lot of answers will be come to light (no put intended) this Wednesday.

#260. Posted by: dk at February 15, 2009 11:58 PM

****SPOILER****

Best acronym yet - TBID

This Blog Is Death.

****SPOILER****

#261. Posted by: Lost in My'ownthoughts at February 16, 2009 1:23 AM

@259 Rudy speculated:

>316 = John 3:16
>Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham = reincarnation?

Just guessing - I'll bet 316 is the Ajira Airlines flight number the O-6 use to get back to the island.

#262. Posted by: Cecil at February 16, 2009 10:00 AM

#256 Clementine: I wonder if the 6 have to come back to make a "course correction". What happened after Michael & Walt left that wasn't supposed to happen? Was it the murder of Alex? The death of Claire? What happened that the island needs those 6 people back for a "do-over"?

#262 Cecil: I agree...Flight 316. That it coincides with John 3:16 is just TPTB toying with us.

#263. Posted by: undaunted at February 16, 2009 12:51 PM


→ 156. Posted by: ealgumby
therefore, I suggest that the "Sawyer holding the rope stuck in the ground" flash, with Locke down in the cave with Christian, happened well after the Orchid was built, but apparently "before" Ben crashed into the cave from the Orchid last season. As such, the time frame could be anywhere between the Dharma days and 2004.

I point this out, because it is still consistent with my previously stated theory that all the time skips have happened between 1954 and 2008 (both when they found the well, and when the ground swallowed Locke).

Not sure I understand this
1 orchid is there (could be Before or After Ben moved the island)
2 orchid not there but the well is (could be Before or After Ben moved the island)
3 well not there and the donkey wheel moving (Wouldn't this have to be AFTER Ben moved the island?)

---------------------------------
217. Posted by: LostedIt
I really needed that. LOL

---------------------------------
Someone said

"But how it is that Charlotte remembers seeing Daniel in her past when he hasn't gone back and met the younger Charlotte yet?"

Regarding Time travel rules.

If you cannot change the past, and one does not remember a past encounter until it happens in the future time travelers time line then when Charlotte remembers that Faraday talked to her when she was a child, He MUST have been there to talk to her and He cannot remember it because he hasn't done it yet in HIS time.Because the Island time is off a bit from where they were talking when she died, he Must be about to go and tell her she will die. Doesn't make any sense to me but it is grammatically correct.

#264. Posted by: berkyo at February 16, 2009 1:35 PM

242. Posted by: welh

First off, Thanks for the warning. I was able to get a third cup of coffee.

I suspect that the Black Rock survivors (Hanso) were digging this well and found the FDW

I like this. I was wondering why there was a well with no water in it. Unless there was water until the FDW became active or something like that.
-------------------------------

At the end of the episode, Mrs. Hawking has the sociopathic smirk of serial killer.

I hadn't seen any mention of this. She really does look creepy.

888888888888888888888888888888

I think that Rose is the only 815er who understood their situation from Day One.

I like this too.

Your whole theory has a lot of "yeah, that's right" to it. But I think I will not like it if it true. I don't think they are dead. yet.

#265. Posted by: berkyo at February 16, 2009 2:04 PM

@265 berkyo wrote"I suspect that the Black Rock survivors (Hanso) were digging this well and found the FDW"

How do we know this connection between Hanso and the Black Rock? Was that ever in the show, or is that again one of these things coming out of the arg's?

#266. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 16, 2009 2:58 PM

I guess I'll answer my own question with a link to Lostpedia: http://tinyurl.com/bkf5m3

#267. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 16, 2009 3:01 PM

This Island is Alantis. Anyone notice the marks on the temple wall... egyptian!

It's possible that there's 2 or more time lines going at once, thus Ben could be at both places at once. I think Ben is Locke, especially after the radiance you see on Locke speaking to Hurley..

I'm awaiting another Ben and Desmond story, by far the most outstanding actors in the series..... they convey conviction!

#268. Posted by: Ant at February 16, 2009 3:13 PM

When Preacher Onun says something is a "spoiler" does that mean it actually is a spoiler or that he's just guessing?? I'm asking - really.

#269. Posted by: Christin at February 16, 2009 3:29 PM

@ 269 – Christin

Answering:
Of course it’s not a real “spoiler” … until it actually happens in the end. Aha!


@ 268 – Ant

Atlantis is on the Atlantic Ocean. I know because I’ve been in its remains several times.
But with all that moving Island thing and polar bears ending up in Tunisia, I guess it can be a possibility.


@ 253 – undaunted

Abbadon wants Locke on the Island. If you remember, back in Cabin Fever" (S4, Ep11), it was him who told Locke to go on the walkabout in the first place! And, what’s more important here, before the elevator door closed he told Locke that: “When you and me run into each other again, you'll owe me one”.
And it was him who gathered the “scientific” team who came to the Island with, as we know now, other purposes rather then to kill everyone.
So… this might tell us 1 of 2 things:
1. or he’s not really on Widmore’s team (like Michael was BMOTB)
2. or Widmore’s intentions are not quite as we may think…

I’ve been fallowing Fringe (very good show, btw, in a CSI/X-Files kinda way) and I can’t help it! I just keep calling him Abbadon because he always uses the same creepy look… What’s funny is that in Fringe, Broyles also knows more about what The Pattern and Massive Dynamics then he transpires to Agent Dunham…

#270. Posted by: PreacherOun at February 16, 2009 3:58 PM

Nice review, vacc!

My head's about to explode from reading all the comments from last and this week's eps. But there's a reason I've lurked here: all the brilliant connections and science/literature refs.

1) Here's another URL on the Temple's hieroglyphics translation: http://tinyurl.com/dn7vr7

For all you (AAAHHH!!) reincarnation junkies, one of the translations is: Lifetime upon lifetime matters which concern a child.”

2) ANDS, AAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! again for the damned reincarnation van, Smokey's voice, rotting arms, AND time travel/memory loss. Did I miss anything?

3) But I have to say I'm so glad people are coming round on the "Past is set, blah blah happened and always happened" idea. Nuff on that.

4) I beg to differ on the Ben is Locke thing. We saw Ben getting born AND we saw Locke getting born. Ben's been mucking around killing Dharma and leading the others while Locke's been off hunting with Daddy, losing that kidney, and falling out of tall buildings. They are NOT the same person.

5) Upon reading the LostPedia entry on Magnus Hanso, father of Alvar Hanso, and owner of the Black Rock, I came across a very interesting quote:

"...he created "metals and material unknown to this world" and chose them "according to the stars and planets." This "android" was instilled with the powers of speech, thought, and according to some reports, a soul. Upon completion of this project, his student St. Thomas Aquinas destroyed the "diabolic being" and denounced it as "a tool of Satan and a blasphemy to God." The "android" could be linked to the Security System."

So...I'm thinking maybe Smokey is the pulverized remains of the Android, still animated with a "soul" and powered by proximity to the unlimited energy source. Perhaps protecting Magnus' interests, aka, island?

6) Perhaps Magnus = RA? (If he's not an Egyptian, Pirate, or Ricky Martin)

Cheers!

#271. Posted by: freckles at February 16, 2009 6:24 PM

p.s. Thanks, PlainSimple, for the LostPedia link!

#272. Posted by: freckles at February 16, 2009 6:27 PM

Jeremy Bentham is, of course, John Locke. Nothing more.
For the same reason Michael had to change his name to Kevin Johnson (and I guess Waaaaaalt too):
so they wouldn’t be related to Oceanic 815.

Even Ben uses Dean Moriarty checkINg IN IN Tunisian Holliday INn (wow!) as preferred guest.

#273. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 16, 2009 6:51 PM

i love this blog, problem is we dont get to see the latest ep. in scotland till a few days after the usa, so i have to wait to read all the comments/theories in here or it would be a huge spoiler for me,keep up the good work guys.

#274. Posted by: san at February 16, 2009 7:25 PM

@242
Usually I read em all, but, WHAAAA?
Was it Styx - "Too much time on my hands", after the first few paragraphs it turned into blah, blah, blah, etc., nosebleed, and blessed death.

#275. Posted by: Peg Leg Rider at February 16, 2009 7:28 PM

Cecil: Maybe 316 is the bearing they need to use to access the island??? Wasn't the bearing Michael used to get off island 3 something something?

#276. Posted by: undaunted at February 16, 2009 7:45 PM

i dont want to speculate what 316 could be, remember ENTER 77, we didnt find out why that ep. was called that till almost the last minute

#277. Posted by: san at February 16, 2009 7:55 PM

Entertainment Weekly has a Lost feature this week. Interesting "reveal" from Damon: The show was never about escaping the island, but rather staying on it.
Another tidbit: Once O6 are back in the jungle, Lost will begin to shift back to character-centric episodes with off-island flashbacks/flash-forwards.
Two new female roles will be added later this season (24's Reiko Aylesworth and New Amsterdam's Zuleikha Robinson).

#278. Posted by: Rudy at February 16, 2009 9:26 PM

@256 and @271 - re: hieroglyph pics

Thanks! Wow, it's amazing to see what get's done by people, seems like it is getting harder and harder to have an original thought any more. :)

#279. Posted by: The Duf at February 17, 2009 12:04 AM

@275, re 4: If that is a comment to one of my earlier posts, I didn't mean that Ben and Locke are literally the same person. We've seen them together on island. But during Locke's conversation with Christian I got a strong feeling that Ben, in the O6 'future' is behaving a lot like how Locke would or should be behaving in that situation. I don't know what exactly it was in the wording and editing of the episode at that point that made me think that. Is there a transcript of this scene? Anyway, I was more thinking along the lines of (enter fantastical speculation) Locke's consciousness inhabiting Ben or something like that. Perhaps two minds in one body, perhaps a mind swap. It's not too uncommon a plot element in sci fi. That would explain why Locke 'had to die' in the sense that his mind had to leave his body. Perhaps his body can even serve as a vessel for Ben to get back to the island, something that he wasn't supposed to be able to do. That would also explain why 'Ben' is so protective of the Locke body. It might explain why 'Ben' is so eager to take orders from mystery women Hawking (doesn't that sound more like a Locke thing to do?). It might explain why 'Ben' seemed surpised when Desmond said that Mrs. Hawking was Daniel's mom. It might explain 'Ben's outburst in the van. It might explain 'Ben's silence when Jack asked him about Locke being dead. It might tie in to whatever package Ben took from the hotel room (although I don't know how that would work exactly; it could also be the surveillance material that he would later send to Sun...). It might relate to the falling out between Sayid and Ben. Did Ben ask Sayid to 'kill' Locke? Plus, there are lots of interesting things, like "Here I am, Ben" hidden in "Ieremy Bentham". Anyway, fun to speculate. but this is only supposed to be about 'Ben' as we've seen him in the O6 time, not on island.

@272: You're welcome freckles. Lostpedia is a great source of information, although I never quite know how to treat information from the arg's with respect to speculation about where the show might go. There seems to be a lot of semi-canon information out there about Hanso, Paik, Dharma, the numbers, Black Rock and what not.


#280. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 17, 2009 1:35 AM

@280, re my own Locke and Ben ramblings: It might also shed some light on Claire's and Charlie's warnings not to "bring him back" and not to "raise him". What if they want to prevent Ben getting back to the island via Locke('s body).

Okay, enough blah for now. :)

#281. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 17, 2009 2:13 AM

@279 You're welcome, Duf!

@280 I see, the soul of Locke hiding in Ben...interesting! I'm not sure Ben's acting any less than his usual manipulative and assertive self, we'll see...

#282. Posted by: freckles at February 17, 2009 2:14 AM

@278 Rudy mentioned:

>...New Amsterdam's Zuleikha Robinson

Also Romes's Gaia. Beautiful character who came to a bad end.

#283. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 17, 2009 9:26 AM

Does anyone know what happened to that dog Walt had. He just disappeared and no one noticed and cared. Might well be some special secret behind his disappearence.

#284. Posted by: Lennie at February 17, 2009 12:46 PM

I've read all the comments, and I do not think anyone else pointed this out-
The voice that is reciting 'the numbers' over the transmission the french folks pick up.... that voice sounds like Hurley to me. Anyone agree? Wouldn't it be crazy if the time jumps continue, even after the O6 come back, and Hurley is the one to record that transmission? He created his own luck all along...

#285. Posted by: Scoosh at February 17, 2009 1:09 PM

@284 Lennie asked:

>Does anyone know what happened to that dog Walt had. He just disappeared and no one noticed and cared.

Vincent was still with the Losties as recently as the flaming arrow attack that killed Frogurt.

Vincent's leash was found by Locke when the small party ended up at what was apparently a future abandoned beach camp where they commandered an outrigger canoe.

#286. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 17, 2009 1:43 PM

Vincent spoiler from one of the Lost podcasts:
*
*
*
*
*
I remember in one of the recent podcasts Darlton said that the only 'character' that is sure to survive until the end of the show is Vincent. So there you go, he's not forgotten. :)

#287. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 17, 2009 2:44 PM

Two possible explanations why the FDW was not frozen this time around :

1) The wheel being off it's axis was releasing energy which warmed the chamber.

2) The reason that the chamber and wheel become frozen becomes apparent to us in episode 12, which is titled "Some Like It Hoth"

3) My favorite idea is that the chamber that Locke falls into via the well is on the OTHER side of the wall from the chamber that Ben climbed/fell into. Perhaps it was only frozen on one side of the wall?

Although I think it's unlikely, wouldn't it be "cool" if that last FOOM brought Locke to the same exact moment that Ben turned the wheel and they were turning it at the same time from opposite sides?

#288. Posted by: vacc at February 17, 2009 4:16 PM

correction: I said "two" explanations about the FDW, then offered three.

Just goes to show.. there are really three types of people in this world... those that can COUNT and those that can't. Guess we learned which type I am.

#289. Posted by: vacc at February 17, 2009 4:19 PM

just saw Cindy in a Scott Trade commercial on CNBC - no scarf.

#290. Posted by: jiggy at February 17, 2009 4:36 PM


Two hundred ninety first!!!!

#291. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 17, 2009 4:57 PM

@288 vacc prognosticated:

>2) The reason that the chamber and wheel become frozen becomes apparent to us in episode 12, which is titled "Some Like It Hoth"

Set on a word in the Star Wars universe?

>3) My favorite idea is that the chamber that Locke falls into via the well is on the OTHER side of the wall from the chamber that Ben climbed/fell into. Perhaps it was only frozen on one side of the wall?

>Although I think it's unlikely, wouldn't it be "cool" if that last FOOM brought Locke to the same exact moment that Ben turned the wheel and they were turning it at the same time from opposite sides?

They were both pushing (or pulling) in the clockwise direction, (as viewed from above) so their efforts would be additive, not oppositional. Of course you could always imagine them with two different wheels connected by gears or cables, to create the opposition, if that's what you want.

o~~~~~~
Survivor news:

For those that care and, like me, have a difficult time separating the Survivors in the early part of the season, I've posted a Bio blog with photos, to help you tell who is who. Click my name below to go there.

#292. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 17, 2009 5:26 PM

Wow, too much to digest since the last time I was able to get around here (last Friday). Lots of discussion about the Black Rock and the blast door schetches. Not sure what to make of it all. Kind of out of the blue for the current story line, but then again that seems to be the type of stuff that shows up again suddenly.

Highly doubt that Locke is in any way related to Ben. The story lines are too distinct. My bet is there's going to be some more big reveals later this season about who is really related to who and some more pieces will slide into place. Remember, we've got a good season and a half left, including one season finale left, that needs some serious action and intrigue to continue things going.

My last comment is there is definitely going to be some delineation at some point as to who is "good" and who is "evil" (those terms being quite relative, of course), though it likely won't all come at once. Right now, I have no idea if Jacob, Christian, Ben, Eloise, Charles Widmore, or any of the many other primary characters are good or bad (for the island or otherwise). I'm thinking Richard Alpert is on the good side, Locke wants to be on the good side but doesn't really know which side that really is (I think he's just a pawn in all of this, sorry), and that Jack is a hugely flawed person who thinks he's on the good side but often in a role that does more damage than good. I don't know how Hurley fits in, except that he might be some key to how everything gets resolved in the end. The rest, they're key characters but I don't see much likelihood about them being critical to the resolution of the island (other than their involvement).

#293. Posted by: LostedIt at February 17, 2009 5:34 PM

I didn't say this before, because I only had one slim post that had no meat, but great review vacc!!

Seems kind of irrelevant now because it only addresses #1-20ish but...

@ Clementine - 11 (and everyone else with a similar explination)
"I think Christian couldn’t help Locke walk, because he is a manifestation of Jacob. Maybe he can’t continue to project the image of another if he has physical contact with someone. Just a thought."

Didn't Christian technically have contact with Aaron. You know, when Claire first saw him before she followed him into the cabin in "Cabin Fever" (I think), he was holding Aaron... then they both ditched him.
_________

@ undaunted - 13
"Christian tells Locke: Don't trust Ben. But Christian is also telling Locke to do precisely the same thing that Ben is telling Locke to do. If Ben & Christian are on opposing sides, why are they both trying to do the exact same thing...get the 6 back to the island, using the exact same method...Eloise Hawking. "

Exactly. I agree.
_______

Everything in the first season means so much more now, not that it didn't mean anything earlier but now everything is coming into perspective and piecing together.

Answers, answers, answers! Love it!
_________

@ ransomjackson - 18
Ben is awesome.
_________

As of now, I think that Charlotte is Annie's daughter, but not Ben's. I don't have any evidence to support that statement, so everything that follows I'm totally just pulling out of my behind. She never mentioned anything about her father (if I recall correctly), so maybe Ben hates Widmore for stealing Annie from him and then Widmore gave Ben money/resources/island to get Ben to leave them alone or to compensate for taking Annie. I feel like Widmore is too old for Annie though, and it seems like Widmore is old enough to be Ben's dad, but obviously is not. Maybe Annie is like Emily Locke, she likes old men? Doubt it.

...sorry for the ramble. RUMBLE. Ahaha.
__________

@ BunnyLover - 19
"Did anyone think that John stopped the time skipping after he got the FDW (unfrozen this time) back on it's axis? It looked like a record skipping until Locke settled it in place. "

I was thinking the same thing, as I'm sure many others were. It felt as though the unbalanced wheel was causing the time skipping but if that was the case, how would Daniel have gone to the "beginning of Orchid time" with Dr. Chang, and the "beginning of Charlotte time"?
__________

Another out of a$$ thought... Anyone think that Eloise the rat's mind was somehow connected to Eloise (Hawking) the person's mind in order to futher confirm Faraday's theories? I guess so that Ms. Hawking can experience it first-hand.

... doesn't seem logical though.
_________

So long for now!

#294. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 17, 2009 5:47 PM

Does anyone else think the reason Rose was so absolutely positive that Bernard was still alive in Season 1 wasn't so much her faith but the fact that future Bernard tells her (told her? will have tellen her?) that he's okay and will see her soon? Possibly around the time Sawyer was watching Kate and Claire.

#295. Posted by: vacc at February 17, 2009 6:13 PM

@295 vacc asked:

>Does anyone else think the reason Rose was so absolutely positive that Bernard was still alive in Season 1 wasn't so much her faith but the fact that future Bernard tells her (told her? will have tellen her?) that he's okay and will see her soon?

Nah, I think it's just the kind of bond that old married couples have (even if this old married couple is not a long-time-married-couple.)

#296. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 17, 2009 7:36 PM

#295 vacc: I don't think Rose has info from time skippers...I think she is intuitive. Just as she knew she didn't have cancer anymore, she knew Bernard was alive because she would have felt him die. That steps into the arena of weird, but it's the sort of weird that actually happens.

#297. Posted by: undaunted at February 17, 2009 7:46 PM

→ 288. Posted by: vacc

3) My favorite idea is that the chamber that Locke falls into via the well is on the OTHER side of the wall from the chamber that Ben climbed/fell into. Perhaps it was only frozen on one side of the wall?

Although I think it's unlikely, wouldn't it be "cool" if that last FOOM brought Locke to the same exact moment that Ben turned the wheel and they were turning it at the same time from opposite sides?


This is interesting. I have always wondered why the chamber in the Orchid that Ben destroys to get to the wheel is there. We saw the early Dharma people just finding the wall that will be the back of the chamber. They were afraid to get too close to the energy source and left it blocked off. But Obviously someone has moved the wheel before. How did they get to it? The Well seems to be another entrance to it. I don't see the Dharma people lowering a polar bear down the well to push the wheel and wind up in Tunisia. Maybe just being in that chamber that Ben blew up would transmit things/animal/people to wherever.

#298. Posted by: berkyo at February 17, 2009 8:08 PM

@295 vacc

>Does anyone else think the reason Rose was so absolutely positive that Bernard was still alive in Season 1 wasn't so much her faith but the fact that future Bernard tells her (told her? will have tellen her?) that he's okay and will see her soon?

I dunno vacc, I think Bernard may well have done telled her that :-) Things to think about on a Tuesday....

#299. Posted by: LostinVT at February 17, 2009 8:21 PM

@298/berkyo: "Maybe just being in that chamber that Ben blew up would transmit things/animal/people to wherever."

That seems to be the basis of the bunny transport experiments, so I agree. I am curious to know what happened to the direct access to the cave at the bottom of the well though ... when Dharma constructed the Orchid, they are tunneling toward the cave, but as you said, explicitly not wanting to penetrate the chamber holding the exotic matter ... why not just use the cave holding the FDW? Was the well still there when they started construction of the Orchid, or had it already been destroyed somehow? Did someone know the cave/FDW was there, but kept that a secret from the other Dharma people? Were the polar bears, as some have suggested, specifically raised/trained to turn the wheel in lieu of people? Does turning the wheel actually transport the wheel turner, or just "leave them behind" so to speak, always in Tunisia? If so, then will we see Locke next pop up in the desert as well? Ooo, so many questions ...

Regarding the FDW itself and the two-sides-of-the-wall theory ... it's quite clever, but don't think I buy into it. It seems obvious from the scenes we've been shown that the exotic matter and/or energy/light source is behind the wall ... if Ben/Locke are turning the wheel on opposite sides of the wall, then where is the exotic matter? No, I'm sticking with the simpler explanation this time ... Ben and Locke were both on the same side of the wall.

Also, what exactly does the FDW do? It seems to be just a leverage mechanism to turn *something* which in turn, affects the exotic matter somehow (???). When it was "off its axis" it seems like it was not engaged with whatever it's supposed to turn, and Locke meshed the FDW to whatever it's connected to. What might that be? A large screw/gear of some type, to open/close an aperture by raising/lowering a heavy door? Or perhaps more like a faucet valve, where every 90 degrees of turn opens/closes whatever it is opening/closing. I dunno, but would like to think D&C have thought through what the FDW is actually turning, and how this action affects the spacetime-travel island moving thing.

I've also looked again very closely at the scene where they first walk toward the well, and have reached two speculative conclusions: (1) the well site is ancient, of the same era as the temple, etc., and (2) the well is more recent, but still quite old, probably built by the Black Rock people. I also think the FDW itself did come from the Black Rock, and was probably put there to fix/replace a similar stone mechanism put in place by the ancients, which had worn out by the time the Black Rock people found it.

Beyond all of this, still completely baffled by WHAT Smokey is. Been toying with this (admittedly off the wall) idea a bit, but still haven't quite been able to make it work ... can't help but wonder if Smokey is a 3-D shadow of the 4-D (more?) entity (mechanical?), just as your silhouette on the wall is a 2-D representation of your 3-D body. Also, just as shadows often fail to clearly present the 3-D object itself, a 3-D "shadow" of a 4-D entity, for example, would probably look something like Smokey does. Now, we haven't seen any other explicit mention of multi-dimensionality on the show yet, so this is just complete speculation. Still, as the "conventional" explanations (like nanotech) for Smokey have been denied by D&C, trying to find something that could even theoretically work.

#300. Posted by: ealgumby at February 17, 2009 9:48 PM

TGIAW

#301. Posted by: Clementine at February 17, 2009 10:21 PM

If Smokey is guarding 'the Temple'...then I of course can't wait to see what it is, but more importantly why did Ben send everyone there (the others) as the only safe place left on the island. Maybe if you're in the Temple then you are not effected by time-jumps...you're shielded and therefore you don't get 'THE NOSE BLEED OF DEATH'!!

#302. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 18, 2009 7:24 AM

RED...NECK...MAN RETURNS!!!!!!!!!

Doesn't our world feel a little more complete now?!? (Kind of like getting the O6 finally back together .. .)


#303. Posted by: davidrh at February 18, 2009 8:20 AM

What causes the nose bleeds? Hypertension can cause them. That fits with what we see, extreme stress causes the hypertension, the hypertension causes the nose bleeds. When the nose bleeders die, is it a result of a stroke?

And this is why the "constant" is important...the constant is a touchstone for the person experiencing the extreme stress. The constant is a calming influence, bringing blood pressure down and heading a stroke off at the pass.

For Desmond, Penny works...her presence in his life calms him. For Faraday, ostensibly it's Desmond, but really I think it's his notebook...Faraday is a scientist, he is rational, his note book grounds him.

My late husband was hypertensive and a stroke patient...I was his constant. When I wasn't in the room his blood pressure would rise. His doctors permitted me to sit in the room during his MRIs because my presence calmed him.

#304. Posted by: undaunted at February 18, 2009 8:27 AM

I'M BACK TOO! That's only because me and Red...Neck...Man are really the same person...hmmmmmm...or not.


"Maybe the couple that Claire was going to take her new baby to in LA was Eloise and ???" 260 -dk

Just to "clairify" ;o)
There really wasn't a couple waiting to receive Claire's baby in LA. The psychic made that up to get her on a plane that he knew was going to crash. Claire was refusing to be the one to raise her baby, so the psychic thought he was taking care of the problem by sending Claire to her doom. IMHO.


"And another thing about Christian: The psychic tells Claire she must raise her own child right up until he makes a sudden and inexplicable 180 and tells her he has a couple in LA who will adopt the baby. Claire has her child,is raising him herself when what happens? Christian comes along and separates her from Aaron. Setting up Aaron to be raised by someone other than Claire."
253 - undaunted


Again, the psychic only makes a 180 because he believes that if Claire doesn't raise the kid then BAD things will happen. He only sends Claire on the plane because he knows it will crash and thinks she and the baby will be killed. I think Dr. Daddy taking the baby is exactly what the psychic forsaw and was trying to prevent. Little did he know he was sending Claire right to Christian...

And speaking of Jack's sibling...I find it strange that no one is wondering what happened to Claire or where she is. None of the 'time travelers' currently on the island seem to care. Even after Sawyer sees her give birth to Aaron it doesn't make him wonder where she currently is.

#305. Posted by: JoePike at February 18, 2009 8:53 AM

I actually woke up with a nosebleed yesterday. Fer reals. Maybe I was time-skipping because it feels like I lost twenty years overnight...

Speaking of constants and blood pressure and nosebleeds...maybe Vincent is somebody's constant. I mean, don't they bring in animals to nursing homes and hospitals to relax people and lower their BP?

And now that Locke's turned the Frozen Custard Wheel of Wonder I wonder "when" the O6-ers will return. If it's the sixties, like the article in EW implies, they should/might run into Young Ben.

They should give him a good spanking is what they should do. Or maybe they did, and that's why he doesn't sit still much...

#306. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 18, 2009 9:36 AM

Regarding why didn't Christian just help Locke get up and get to the FDW, I don't think it's a matter of him being physically unable to help. If so, D&C would have just demonstrated that by having his arm pass right through Locke. I think it was definitely more of a "free will" kind of thing, whereby someone's actions are directly correlated to the results, and those actions must be done by the person completely of their own accord. Sort of like...hey, Adam and Eve! Yes, that's actually quite appropriate in this situation, especially when the skeletons in the cave are referred to as Adam and Eve. The snake tells them to eat the apple, but doesn't pick it for them or make them eat it. It's actually their own actions that result in the consequence upon them, and for that matter all of humanity that follows.

Regarding Claire raising her baby or not and people telling her she must raise it or not, I think this is going to end up being a situation where the writers have changed the direction of the storyline and are just going to conveniently "forget" certain things happened in the past. Just IMHO. So we can debate this to the ends of the earth but we're going to find out that as right as we are it just doesn't matter. The current storyline is what it is and past history be darned (keepin' it clean for the younguns - ilovebenajaminlinusxx ;) )

#307. Posted by: LostedIt at February 18, 2009 9:39 AM

@301 Clementine posted:

>TGIAW

Thank God I'm At Work?
Thank God I'm A Woman?
Thank God It's Almost Wednesday?

o~~~~~~

@303 davidrh jubilated:

>RED...NECK...MAN RETURNS!!!!!!!!!

>Doesn't our world feel a little more complete now?!?

Now if only someone could scrounge up bcea8ive.

o~~~~~~~

@306 ransomjackson revealed:

>I actually woke up with a nosebleed yesterday. Fer reals. Maybe I was time-skipping because it feels like I lost twenty years overnight...

That's from hanging around with Earl.

I actually got to watch a couple of Earl eps recently during the interregnum, but with Survivor back on it looks like I'll have to catch them in rerun in the summer - look for some late comments in four or five months.

#308. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 18, 2009 9:52 AM

I hate it when I typo names.

"bcre8ve"

#309. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 18, 2009 9:54 AM

regarding the claire issue, there were several articles in a tv guide issue about lost and TPTB stated the fate of claire would be answered next season. and apparently ben isnt as big and bad as we might think, we will discover there are people ben fears and to whom he must answer. definitely look forward to that episode. :)

#310. Posted by: tiffani at February 18, 2009 9:56 AM

@308: Cecil Rose - I couldn't have meant anything but THANK G-D IT'S ALMOST WEDNESDAY!!!!!

And to that, I now add TGIW!!!!!

Let the wackiness that is always Wednesday around here begin...

#311. Posted by: LostedIt at February 18, 2009 10:47 AM

I nominate the photo of Charlotte under Vacc's Point 2 in the weekly synopsis and the scariest Lost photo to date.

That and any photo of Hurley downing yet another meal...

#312. Posted by: LostedIt at February 18, 2009 10:50 AM

@312: LostedIt - I nominate the photo of Charlotte under Vacc's Point 2 in the weekly synopsis and the scariest Lost photo to date.

Thanks!! While I was writing the recap, I paused my DVR at the beginning of that scene, and advanced a frame at a time until I reached "maximum scariness". I then took a photo of my screen. Overall, that turned out to be one of the more dark and unsettling moments of my life.

#313. Posted by: vacc at February 18, 2009 10:57 AM

Ealgumby
can't help but wonder if Smokey is a 3-D shadow of the 4-D (more?) entity (mechanical?), just as your silhouette on the wall is a 2-D representation of your 3-D body. Also, just as shadows often fail to clearly present the 3-D object itself, a 3-D "shadow" of a 4-D entity, for example, would probably look something like Smokey does.

Well. you could use the man behind the curtain parallel - The Wizard's frightening manifestation was nothing like the real wizard. Maybe Jacob or the real wizard of the island uses smokey to scare people. And it works!

#314. Posted by: berkyo at February 18, 2009 11:37 AM

@312 LostedIt nominated:

>I nominate the photo of Charlotte under Vacc's Point 2 in the weekly synopsis and the scariest Lost photo to date.

Season 1/2 Hurley was a close contender, before we petitioned mac to change it. You can't go back and see it because mac just updated the photo, and all the links now point to the newer one.

#315. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 18, 2009 11:37 AM

I think we need a newer picture of Jin also. The one we have is more his "Brooks Brothers" look rather than the semi-wild-shaggy-haired Jin of recent eps.

Afterall, there are no barbershops on the island - as far as we know.

#316. Posted by: davidrh at February 18, 2009 1:03 PM

@ 295/vacc
"Does anyone else think the reason Rose was so absolutely positive that Bernard was still alive in Season 1 wasn't so much her faith but the fact that future Bernard tells her (told her? will have tellen her?) that he's okay and will see her soon?"

After realizing that her terminal cancer was gone, and her common sense telling her why, Rose was positive that Bernard would be with her in heaven.


#317. Posted by: welh at February 18, 2009 2:00 PM

Just was rewatching portions of the first episode of the season...
Has Ben always called Hurley Hugo?

I can't remember. The only person I remember consistently calling him Hugo is Locke. Yet there was Ben in the funeral parlor with Jack and he called him Hugo. Jack responds, calling him Hurley as if to correct Ben, but Ben goes on to keep calling him Hugo.
It reminded me of the theory that somehow Locke's consciousness is inhabiting Ben's body.
Maybe it's like Dr. McCoy in Star Trek 3 where he has Spock's katra inside and Ben needs to get back to the Genesis island to reunite Locke's body and spirit.

#318. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 18, 2009 2:19 PM

5-5 This Place is Death

The French rescue Jin,
An encounter with Smokey,
Leaves Montand armless.

John Locke meets Christian
Or is it Jacob, and does
The wheel turn in vain?

Ben's plans rise and fall
Jack and Sun are in, plus Des?
We meet Eloise.

#319. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 18, 2009 2:45 PM

Cecil writes Haikus.
Some are better than others.
The first friggin' rocks.

#320. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 18, 2009 3:51 PM

#318
Has Ben always called Hurley Hugo?

I belive that Ben has always called Hurley Hugo and Sawyer James and Locke John- just to show that he knows what's in all of their files...

#321. Posted by: PartyofSix at February 18, 2009 4:21 PM

Funny....just today I wondered: where the heck is R..N..M?? And, foom: he appeard.

At the same time, I also wondered about Claire's disappearance and the fact that none of our Losties still on the Island ever mention her. Very odd. Especially after Sawyer watched her give birth.

Ditto Clementine's TGIAW/TGIW.

Love Cecil's haiku.

#322. Posted by: lovelost at February 18, 2009 4:33 PM

First time post...
I recently watched the pilot episode again and if you listen in the background when the smoke monster first roars in the jungle you can hear Rose say that it "sounds familiar"... don't know what it means but i find it curious.

#323. Posted by: misschriss at February 18, 2009 5:07 PM

@323: From LostPedia:

Season One (Days 1–44)
The Monster was the first of many mysteries the survivors encountered on the Island...Loud, machine-like sounds were heard coming from the jungle...Rose commented that it sounded familiar to her. When asked where she was from, she replied, "The Bronx." ("Pilot, Part 1")

Also:

In the voice-over commentary for "The 23rd Psalm" on the Season 2 DVD, producer Bryan Burk confirmed that one of the Monster's sound effects is the receipt printer from a NYC taxi cab.

This was reaffirmed in the May 21, 2007 Official Lost Podcast, but it was clarified that the mythology of the Monster is unrelated to the cabs and was just a matter of sound effects.

#324. Posted by: freckles at February 18, 2009 5:21 PM

oh, LostPedia also says, "The howling sound is usually in concert pitch A."

Not to be confused with the howling sounds caused by JWTB and its ilk!

#325. Posted by: freckles at February 18, 2009 5:24 PM

→ 323. Posted by: misschriss "sounds familiar"... don't know what it means but i find it curious.
Welcome!

I remember re watching that and "I" thought it was familiar too. It is the same noise as the plane cracking up and crashing. Metal against metal, creaking and clashing. There are stills on the net that someone took and they say that black blobs appear in the cabin at the time of the noise. they think it is bits of smoke monster. i was not impressed. but sound did impress me.

it's almost time, it's almost time.!!!

Say, Cecil? Mac? would it be possible for all the acronyms to be put in one spot so people like me can see what the hell they mean????? I've been here for a season and don't recognize any of them, Just WGNABB. and I haven't seen that for a while. That would be "we're gonna need a bigger boat" right? Jaws? Why is it here?

#326. Posted by: berkyo at February 18, 2009 5:27 PM

Re: the howling sounds caused by JWTB... I'm not sure if it's in A, but I am sure it's perfectly pitched, consider DRH is the source :)

TGIW, berkyo. TGIW ;)

#327. Posted by: Clementine at February 18, 2009 5:33 PM

@326 berkyo proposed:

>Say, Cecil? Mac? would it be possible for all the acronyms to be put in one spot so people like me can see what the hell they mean?????

This is mac's place, I'm just a one-time guest reviewer - you'd have to ask him. Of course, if you want to make up a list, I'm sure he can find an appropriate place for it. [g]

>I've been here for a season and don't recognize any of them, Just WGNABB. and I haven't seen that for a while. That would be "we're gonna need a bigger boat" right? Jaws? Why is it here?

I think it had something to do with the
raft in S-1, but I'm not positive.

The are nay number of good acronym finders and lists on the net, just Google "acronym". Only the ones uniquet to here won't be there (JWTB).

#328. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 18, 2009 6:27 PM

@328/Cecil Rose: Re WGNABB "I think it had something to do with the
raft in S-1, but I'm not positive."

I thought it was derived to "we're gonna need a bigger blog" in ref to the increasing number of posts on the blog at that time ... ?

#329. Posted by: ealgumby at February 18, 2009 6:38 PM

A few final thoughts about Smokey before the new epi begins ...

No new thought here, as it's been mentioned MANY times before (including on Lostpedia), but Smokey bears more than fleeting comparison to the Rover "security system" from The Prisoner. That started me thinking ... what if we never find out exactly what Smokey is, just as it was never revealed exactly what Rover was in The Prisoner?

From wiki:
"Rover, the large white balloon-like device that chases and pacifies or kills would-be escapees ... Several aspects of the Rover device were not explained, presumably left to the imagination/speculation of the viewer."

Also, "In the novel 'The Prisoner: Number Two' by David McDaniel, based upon the series, the name Guardian was used instead of Rover." Cerberus was the Guardian of the Underworld, and Cerberus is referenced multiple times on Radzinsky's blast door map. Will Lost end up ala The Prisoner, with the Guardian left unexplained?

Also re Rover/Smokey, again from wiki: "Rover is last seen in [the episode] Fall Out. While the rocket is being launched, Rover drops down a hole to an underground 'cave' like area, where it shrinks to a small size and becomes still as if it is deactivating itself now that it is no longer needed ..." Will Smokey meet a similar fate when Lost winds down?

Finally, "Open questions surrounding Rover suggest that its use in the series was a variation of the deus ex machina type of plot device ..." Could the "mechanical" sounds coming from Smokey simply be a tip of the hat to the writers' contrivance of Smokey as deus ex machina?

One last Prisoner related thought: Is Jacob Number One? Could RA, Ben, Locke be analogous to Number Two?

Oh, okay, one last frivolous Prisoner related thought ... "The various Number Twos seem to make use of several symbols of their authority ... The two more visible signs are a multicoloured scarf and a colourful umbrella stick (used as a cane)." Hmm ... Cindy's scarf and Eko's Jesus stick? ;)

#330. Posted by: ealgumby at February 18, 2009 6:58 PM

Couldn't resist this ... just looking at the blast door map again, and noticed "Caduceus Station believed to have been abandoned due to the AH/MDG incident of 1985"

AH/MDG = Alvar Hanso / Magnus DeGroot? Is this "The Incident?" Was the FDW involved?

2008 - 1985 = 23 ... yet another "numbers" correlation to date differences between "now" and significant events on the island, no? Not ready to give up on that theory just yet, as we've yet to see canonical evidence to the contrary, IMO.

#331. Posted by: ealgumby at February 18, 2009 7:06 PM

OH! Yet one more Prisoner thing ... couldn't think of where I'd heard "This Place Is Death" before, but just noticed/remembered an epi of The Prisoner was titled "The Girl Who Was Death" ... that is all ...

#332. Posted by: ealgumby at February 18, 2009 7:12 PM

... and of course the tag-line from The Prisoner: "I am not a number - I am a free man!" Or as Bunny #15 might think, "I am not a number - I am a space-time continuum freed rabbit!"

Okay ... yes, that was painfully weak ... just all atwitter over the pending epi I guess! ;)

Now I will shut up, promise ...

#333. Posted by: ealgumby at February 18, 2009 7:19 PM

IDNWTAMSICMAL !!!!

And I haven't thought of the prisoner in a long time.....

#334. Posted by: berkyo at February 18, 2009 7:38 PM

@327

Thanks for the shoutout clementine, but actually, I'm more of a multi-tonal
assymetricly-rhythmic kind of guy!

"A" is sooooo 440.


DRH

#335. Posted by: davidrh at February 18, 2009 7:57 PM

@285
just rewatching the rebroad of last weeks epi and YES it does sound like hurley reading the numbers. mmmmmm...

#336. Posted by: flegma at February 18, 2009 8:07 PM

Only 40 minutes!!!

Anyway, has anyone seen Vincent's new lostpedia picture???

http://tinyurl.com/anghqg

He definitely looks very "smokey"... =]

[It kind of looks like smoke is coming out of his mouth, just not.]

#337. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 18, 2009 8:12 PM

you guys are so lucky in th states, i got to wait 2 days to see the new epi.. boohoo lol enjoy! i will join yous in a few days

#338. Posted by: san at February 18, 2009 8:27 PM

The Lamppost ... C.S. Lewis ref?

Aslan?

#339. Posted by: ealgumby at February 18, 2009 9:33 PM

Where is Aaron?

#340. Posted by: ealgumby at February 18, 2009 9:47 PM

Best line so far ...

Frank: “We’re not going to Guam, are we?”

#341. Posted by: ealgumby at February 18, 2009 9:52 PM

As far as we know now ... Aaron, Ji Yeon, and Walt are left behind ... implications?

#342. Posted by: ealgumby at February 18, 2009 9:55 PM

ok - how funny is it - flight attendant - scarf - lol.

and just as i was worrying about all the other poor souls on the flight, there is Hurley - i bought 78 tickets....

#343. Posted by: LostinVT at February 18, 2009 9:55 PM

yes, aaron, my stomach did a flip with that one, bet she took him to grandmummy

#344. Posted by: LostinVT at February 18, 2009 9:58 PM

WHOA.....Dude.


I need a summary.

#345. Posted by: berkyo at February 18, 2009 10:06 PM

Why does the "condolences" guy look so familiar??? Have we seen him before? Am I really slow??

By the way, I must say -- I love Ben more and more every minute of episode [especially when he's featured or mentioned].

#346. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 18, 2009 10:28 PM

OH YEAH. Did anyone notice that they started out this episode with Jack's annoying breathing???

... obviously also the same way that they started out the series, Jack's eye, annoying breathing, running and saving people... with a suit on.

#347. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 18, 2009 10:31 PM

@341

Still the BEST LINE at the end of the episode.

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#352. Posted by: Idemeapessy at April 10, 2009 5:12 PM

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