Key Points from "The Constant"

LOVE THIS SHOW SO MUCH!!! This was probably this best episode so far. Why does it seem like next Thursday is so far way?

". . . a robotic River Tam . . ." priceless.
This episode is pure genius. Wow.

Best episode so far, this season and in my top 3 of all time. I was anxious at the end, wishing that Desmond does not jump back to 1996 while waiting to talk to Penny.
I also wonder why Charles Widmore was so interested in the diary and why did he help Desmond though last time he treated him like crap (maybe he thought his daughter would join him in treating Des like crap too)

Great review!

GRAA! Mac.
(brainquilibrium?) best line ever.
Glad we are starting to get some form of answers, sort of. My brain hurts, time for bed. Keep up the good work.

Just decided to repost my last post from a few minutes ago on last weeks epi's page (to tired to write anything else for now....

Forgive the typos (there's now some beer combined with that Italien red...Here's to you Damon...)

Can't wait for Mac"s post and man I love this show.

OK, here goes

Tonight confirmed that Dan IS definately THE MAN.

Also, for some obscure reason that we'll come to now later, Frank also is a good guy (or just has his own agenda) "a la" Juliet.

Now this Epi helped to answer some questions and establish some priNcipals that have to be followed;

1- Time travel doen't necessitate the displacement of your body (Eloise never moved!)....it's where your conscience is at that's important (confirms the old adage that seeing IS believing (as long as your mind thinks it's seeing it....))

2- You NEED to have a constant in your life (or not if you don't mind your brain liquifying and coming out of your nose and eyes....

3- dsaf.gmnfhg wGOHOAHSG (sorry a bit drunk and tired.....)

4- !!!!! ONE OF THE NUMBERS!!!!! (I believe there was at least one reference tonight, the lot number for the Black Rock's ledger was "2342"

BTW is it me or did Widmore give me the impression that he knew what was going on when he gave Desmond Penny's address.

That's all for now....GRAAM (it's a future-flash to what i"ll be writing tomorrow)

@Mac: Bless your brain for making that coherent and funny! I’m also feeling very sympathetic with a flat-lined rat. Just call me Eloise the 3rd.

Oh, my head hurts.

There were a few holes in the plot that you could drive a truck through, but overall, I agree: this episode was awesome! Gosh, I love this show!

So, from the time of his dishonorable discharge from the army to the time he set sail on his boat race around the world to the time he ended up on the island, Des would have known that on Christmas Eve 2004 he would be calling Penny from a boat somewhere near Fiji having just left an island, right? He would have remembered his “future-flashes” from 1996, but not known exactly how he got to the island or the freighter! And then, maybe nothing after that, because the connection with his constant should have stopped the time-jumps.

I always thought Des had some secret he wasn’t sharing with his fellow Losties! This is great because it puts a whole new spin on his motivations and reactions in past episodes.

If the connection with Penny stopped the time-jumps, he should not have any first-hand memory of his island experiences now. Unless a return to the island somehow gives him back his memories? And how does this tie into Daniel’s memory loss?

Biggest weak link in the episode was the immediate assumption by Daniel that Des would have to connect with a constant in both timelines to... what? Stop the jumps? Keep his sanity? Prevent his consciousness from leaking out his nose? Anyway, the writers just conveniently zoomed ahead to the Penny solution, in my opinion, and didn’t back it up well.

The Des/Penny phone call made me cry. Because I’m a girl and because it was awesome :)

A few random thoughts:

I love Daniel.

I love Sayid. Best line was his response to Des about fixing the sabotaged radio equipment (spaghetti wires hanging everwhere): “Just give me a minute.”

During the helicopter ride into the thunderhead, I kept waiting for Frank to say “Talk to me, Goose.”

Boy, howdy, was that freighter guy huge!

Kinda glad Minkoski only lasted one episode. Fisher Stevens annoys me.

Henry Ian Cusick is HOT!!! Sorry, had to get that out there. I mean, seriously, how could Penny try to shut a door in his face? And, I definitely prefer Royal Scots Regiment Des to Island Des. Although I wouldn’t kick either one out of bed. Sorry again. It’s late, I’m tired and it had to be said ; ) G’Night All.

I don't feel drunk.*

OK, NOW the show is officially weird. Mac, how you made any sense of that is amazing. I'm impressed and very excited at what this new wrinkle could bring to the show.

Note that the helicopter veers slightly off course during a storm causing Desmonds flashbacks and forwards. It was probably very similar to the storm Lapidus and the crew flew through when they landed on the island. And by the way, what happened to Naomi? Did they take her off the chopper? Did she fall out during the turbulance? I'm sure Desmond's condition threw them all for a loop but you figure Sayid or Lapidus might have remembered to tell someone, hey we brought back a dead Naomi!

The line I loved was when Desmond says to Faraday, "What do you wear on your head?" after he puts on the anti-radiation apron (is that what they call it?).

And the scene between Desmond and Penny when he tells her he'll call her December 24th, 2004, 8 years in the future, was brilliant. The chemistry between those two is so fantastic, it's hard to believe they aren't husband and wife in real life. Kudos to them.

*I really need to watch "Memento" again. Excellent movie.

The Constant Haiku (4.5 v.1)

Oxford Hippie Doc,

Can't Wait To See His Nose Bleed,

Shivers Like Lab Rat.

@mac "...nor is he a robotic River Tam sent to protect a teenaged resistance leader."

Loved it! I always look forward to Summer.

A couple of quick observations:

1) There does not seem to be a large time difference between the island and the real world. Hours/minutes maybe, but not days as some of us have speculated. Dec 24, 2004 on the island and on the freighter.

2) Was Faraday's journal entry a reference to the fact that Faraday is time traveling as well and knows he needs a constant? Or was it a "just in case" note?

3) It appears that Widmore has a series of monitoring stations setup to look for the island - two of which are the Arctic station and the freighter.

4) Minkowski spoke of trying to go to the island and then his friend died. Now apparently he has as well after presenting peculiar symptoms. Is this what happened to Rousseau and crew? Are these symptoms the same as Rousseau referred to in saying that her crew became sick after arriving on the island?

I had better stop thinking about all of this before a small line of blood begins to trickle from my nose...

Its only 2 hours since the show ended and already you have a great review for all of us to dissect! Thanks Mac!

This too was my favorite episode of the season, gave us a LOT of answers. Few questions/Comments:

1) So is 2004 Desmond now 1996 Desmond (i.e, does he remember how he got onto the island via the boat competition?)

2) Does this whole episode now change the past? I'm having trouble reconciling the previous flash-back episode for Desmond with this one.

3) This episode introduced the concept of consciousness and body being able to "separate". Do you think Jacob is a conscious that's "lost"?

4) Widmore gotta be the financier behind this whole thing. Why else would he be that interested in the journal?

5) When the Dharma initiative started, it seems that ppl come and go freely to the island. So obviously back then this island was easy to find. I think the Dharma initiative may have started the radiation/electromagnet experiments, which probably set off the chain of events.

Thanks Mac, GRAA!

It's been a while since I last posted. I read the recap almost as soon as it's up, but there's already hundreds of comments and observations made before I actually get round to posting. By that stage, any theory or thought I've had has already been stated in some form or other so adding a comment is rendered obsolete. I do read all the comments on this site every week, though, and have done so since season 2. All I can say is what a brilliant bunch of thinkers, researchers and wacky theorists we have here - thanks for always adding to my enjoyment of the show.

I remember a while ago someone asking about the far-flung countries Mac's readers come from. There's quite a few of us in Australia (though in Lost world, that's hardly far-flung, really, is it?)
Maybe the Aussies have been a bit quiet here in the past because we've always been at least half a season behind (does that have anything to do with the Island's proximity to Australia and the time anomaly???). I can, however, report that we have almost caught up and are now only a mere week/episode behind the States in terms of free-to-air screening (thanks to the heat local tv networks get from online downloading).

(And, yes, before you ask, my name really IS Claire, so it's not some obvious Lost pseudonym I'm using.)

Episodes of Lost go to air in Oz 9.30pm on Thursdays... and yet I still can't wait that extra week before watching the ep online. So I'm just waiting for the download to complete so I can go watch this week's ep, but thought I'd say hello and thanks to everyone who contributes to the page before the number of comments start stacking up... :)

One thing I haven't noticed anyone mention to any length is the role of Clancy Brown, who played Kelvin (and has connections to Sayid and Kate's past). I know Desmond is supposed to have killed him on that fateful day he forgot to press the button, resulting in the Oceanic 815 crash, but I can't shake the feeling his story's not completely told yet. My spidey-senses were piqued, too, when we first heard Jacob's voice in the cabin with Ben and Locke last season. When Jacob said 'Help me' to Locke, it sounded a lot like Clancy Brown's deep resonant voice. I know we've seen Jacob in the form of Christian Shepherd since, and the voice of anyone playing Jacob could have been distorted/slowed down to sound deep and resonant, but if you saw Clancy Brown in Carnivale - a program that had some similar philosophical themes - you'd know what I mean. I know it's been said that when someone dies on the island, they ARE dead, but I'm expecting to see him at least pop up in a flashback (or even forward) at some point.

* The Widmore's will be there to the very last episode, no doubt about it!

Can someone explain why the freighter is now only 40 miles away from the island? Just one day before the freighter was "80 nautical miles away" which translates to 92 miles away.

As others have stated, this episode was pretty sweet!

It is definitely mind boggling, so I hope to re-watch before seriously discussing/analyzing.

Mac - I loved:

"Faraday tells Jack and Juliet that "island time" is a little different than "off-island time" (somewhere, Jimmy Buffet nods in agreement)."

@ 6 Clementine

I don't think 1996 Desmond remembers any of the experiences of time travel. He no doubt feels something weird has happened, but he cannot retain the memory. I'm sure they will further explain this at some point.

I don't think 2004 Faraday remembered his experience with Desmond in 1996.

Yeah - brain hurts, but just remember: there will be no paradox!

The freighter is steaming closer.

Time paradoxes are popping-up all over.

Key personnel are taking ill.

I think they are about to solve all their food problems.

Locke is going to step outside for one of his legendary, perfectly timed (how do he know?) rain showers, and I guarantee you, it is going to start raining #15 white rabbits.

(We don't need no stinking eggs!)

ok, so Mr Widmore buys the blackrock log, allegedly recovered by pirates (sorry, dont buy it). I think the Blackrock landed on the island. the survivors wrote for a but about the island before they died. A Mr Hanso with island access found the diary, and sold it, making up the cover story so people wouldnt look for the island, not having thoroughly read the diary. My. Widmore buys the diary at auction, and then Penny READS the diary. Reads about how they landed on some mystery island, and THATS how she knew about the island. Thus she occassionally radios that part of the world, hoping to catch Desmond.

For my theory on how Desmond ends up in jail... after his future flashing in boot camp, he earned a bad reputation as a slacker, or trouble maker. Then he goes and runs off to find Penny. Might not have made it back in time. Been listed as AWOL, and with enough enemies, not given a second chance. They immediately tossed him in jail.

@ Shikotee # 13 -

"Faraday tells Jack and Juliet that "island time" is a little different than "off-island time" (somewhere, Jimmy Buffet nods in agreement)."

That was my fave Mac-Moment this week, too!

@ Alex (not rousseau) #7 -

I loved Memento!

And, once again, I'm reminded of Slaughterhouse 5...

Wish i could travel in future and watch all LOST (future)episodes [:(]

PS... Rousseau... AKA 'Mother of another Other'

At the start to middle of last season, I brought up some curious parallels to Slaughterhouse 5, noting that the writers would have most definitely drawn some inspiration from Kurt Vonnegut and such writers and theorists in the quantum physics and space/time travel traditions. I dropped the topic when other readers here said they were sick of all the time/space theories being thrown about. Well, it seems now that the Lost writers certainly aren't sick of these theories and are quite prepared to explore them! Sorry, but I feel quite vindicated... ;)

For those that haven't read Slaughterhouse 5, here's a brief description of a key relevant element, courtesy of Wikipedia:

* Billy has become "unstuck in time" for unexplained reasons (though it's hinted towards the end that his surviving a plane crash left him with mild brain damage) so he randomly and repeatedly visits different parts of his life, including his death. He meets, and is later kidnapped by, aliens from the planet Tralfamadore, who exhibit him in a Tralfamadorian zoo with Montana Wildhack, a pornographic movie star. The Tralfamadorians see in four dimensions, the fourth dimension being time. Tralfamadorians have seen every instant of their lives already; they believe that they can't choose to change anything about their fate, but can choose to focus on any moment in their lives that they wish.

Throughout the novel, Billy hops back and forth in time, reliving various occasions in his life and fantasy life; this gives him a constant sense of stage fright, as he never knows what part of his life is coming up next. *

I'm sure, if we freeze frame and zoom in, we'll surely find that there's Vonnegut and Hawking titles planted on the bookshelf in the home currently occupied by Sawyer and Hurley!

2 weeks ago, someone mentioned that the island might be under water, which had sprung to my mind when I looked more closely at the title pictures on the website. The when someone else started making comparisons to Pirates of the Carribbean it freaked me out because I had been previously thinking about the scene from Pirates 3 when the ship is sailing "upside down" in the nether world and they have to tilt it far enough that it flips all the way over and again sails "right side up" on the "living" side of the ocean (sorry, I didn't explain that very well. Maybe someone who's seen the movie could explain it better than me at this time of night).

Regardless of the answers we might eventually get to so many of our current questions about the Island, the numbers, the Widmores, Jacob, the Others, Dharma, Oceanic 815, etc, hasn't the journey been worthwhile! Watching Lost certainly fires off the synapses in bizarre and mind-melting patterns and the creators are due massive credit for engaging our imagination for so long.

Mac. Long time lurker. Love your site, feels like family. My experience with LOST is never complete without viewing your review and the comment sections.

Wondering something. Did Desmond's exposure come from the hatch implosion or for being in the hatch for a number of years? If implosion alone, does this mean the same thing would happen to Locke if he left the island? If from the sky turning puple, does possible exposure is the risk for all of islanders if they try to leave the island?

Even though the head is hurting, I wouldn't have it any other way. I love this show and the way it makes me think ...

Great Recap Mac.
Best episode ever in that it answers two major questions - time travel does exist, the island does have special properties.
Also, is Charlie alive? Penny says she talked to him and knows about the island.
AND while this episode was great in a micro way, how does it relate to what will happen over the next 2.5 years in a macro way?
AND have we got close in the time line to the finale 2.5 years from now with flash forwards?

Loved this episode.

I wonder if George was zipping back to 1996 as well?
Did he die in the past and the future at the same time?

When Desmond was experiencing some blood loss due to the 2004 time flip, he did not have a nose bleed when he returned to the past. Perhaps you only die in the future flip. If not George would have died while on a ferris wheel in his past flip.

I'd like to see Julliete kick Charlottes ass.

That's all for now.

Ooops! Sorry, I got so distracted by my poor description of that scene in Pirates of the Carribbean 3 that I didn't finish my point or explain why I was mentioning it (see post #20).

Though I don't give much weight to this idea anymore in light of more recent revelations, the concept in Pirates 3 of being stuck in a parallel world that was on the "flipside" of the ocean did offer some ideas about where the Lost island might have been located - under the water.

In Pirates 3, the ship and crew can't find their way home (and therefore also can't be found) because they're sailing "upside down" on the ocean in the netherworld. Nothing on their map is showing up where it should be and instead of seeing the living and the landmarks indicated on their map, they are seeing all the dead souls floating past in their small rowboats to wherever.

Captain Jack works out that, because they've passed through some living/death portal, they must actually be sailing upside down on the ocean. By flipping the boat over, they can revert back to the topside world and find their way on the map and to where they're going.

This seemed to be relevant at the time because the Others' main mode of transport on and off the island was by submarine and the island can't be found on regular maps - where the island should be, the regular maps were said to just show open water. Ethan had also put Juliet to sleep during her trip to the Island because he said the last part of the journey was a bit rough, or words to that effect, and that seemed consistent with a craft needing to flip over to the other side of the ocean.

Anyway, a crazy theory and I prefer the space/time travel one much better. But it's all part of the fun of throwing up ideas and theories, isn't it? :)

When Desmond contacts Penny on Sayid's
Tin Can SAT Phone. Penny mentions that she started looking for Desmond
3 years earlier, when his friend (charlie) had spoke to her ( through the looking glass).

Please correct for exact wording.

The idea of time/space travel does seem to offer some potential answers to old questions, particularly about why people and things keep showing up at odd times. eg,

- Walt appearing at different times and at different ages on the island. After leaving the island and mastering time travel, did he go back in time to the past Lostaways to help them with his future knowledge? Did he show up at that precise moment when Shannon was shot because he knew she had die then for some yet unexplained reason?

- are the whisperings in the jungle the disembodied voices of time travellers watching and observing them?

- Did future Kate send that horse back to past Kate for some particular reason? Did she send a horse as her messenger because she herself was afraid of the potential consequences of time travelling? Not to mention the further weirding out she would have experienced if Past-Kate had met Future-Kate.

-Did Naomi have the photo of Desmond and Penny because she had time travelled to meet Desmond at some point? Or did Desmond travel back in time to find Naomi and give her his photo...

- Is Jacob a time traveller trapped in that cabin by the space/time continuum?

- the appearance to Jack of Christian Shepherd on the island back in season 1

- The presence of the Black Rock

- the polar bears

I'm sure you could add many many MANY other "Bizarre Island Incidents" to this list that could now be explained with time/space travel. No wonder Ben doesn't want anyone to leave the Island - their heads will explode out their noses!

Maybe Faraday should have worn Cindy's scarf on his head.

I must rewatch this as well before I can discuss it in depth. I think that Faraday didn't remember seeing Des because it hadn't actually happened yet. Once it did, then the book was altered due to the new events occuring in the past, if that makes sense. Don't you guys watch Back to the Future? It's one of my all time favorites.

I have to admit, I really didn't buy in to the whole time travel theory...duh, and I am eating crow for lunch today.

#26

Not exactly. Penny said, "I have been looking for you for 3 years" that was since Des disapeared.

"When I spoke to Charlie" referred to the last episode of season 3 when she spoke with Charlie.

The episode also explains why Penny was even calling during the last episode of season 3. Minkowski does mention that Penny Widmore had been calling non-stop and they were given strict orders never to answer.

The Jewelery Shop woman, the first time Desmond's conscience traveled through time, might know about what is going on. To bad Des didn't recall to find her.

I snuck in early to the concert hall business office just to read Mac's review. OK, I'm excited to see this episode and certainly gained a "heads up" about what to watch for . . .

Hopefully I'll be able to read everyone's reactions on Sunday when I get home for a day. Have a great week friends and thanks, Mac, for the "anticipation thrill" I having right now!

To rehearsal.

Some interesting ideas were raised by last night's awesome episode. Faraday is getting more intriguing by the minute. He made a comment to 1996 Des that you can't change the future. I wonder if this is true or if it is his hypothosis.

If time on the island is so different ... or perception of time on the island is so different then Sayid should be incorrect when he says it is Christmas Eve. The time/date he believes it to be and actual chronological time/date would not be synchronized. Of course this would leave poor Des totally screwed, and I do so love his Bonnie accent.

Did anyone notice that the creepy -" I am just trying to help you" doc turned up in the Eli Stone episode immediately following Lost. Also the Hanso/darma doc showed up as a doc in Medium two weeks ago. (Run Alison run!!!) Maybe they are caught in a cross time network paradox!!!

It think Faraday had a breakdown of some sort which is why he has no memory of meeting 1996 Des. Wonder what else is in that black book of his!!!

I wonder if Des will stop having his future flashes now that he has reset his brain equillibreum!!!

Love truely does conquer all.

Sorry, but I found this episode to be a bit contrived. It seems the writers are now channeling Christopher Reaves ala "Somewhere in Time" with all this mind travel business. Add to that a bit of "Back to the Future" in terms of Des having to seek out "the doc" Farraday and you have a weak episode. I suppose that in the context of the next couple of year's episodes the writers will bring this all together. At least I now have an excuse for spacing out at work!

Research time: In "Live Together, Die Alone" Desmond turns the key which releases a large electromagnetic discharge. The same overexposure that Faraday asks if Desmond has been exposed to. (The purple sky event) Since Desmond has been exposed, he has a problem getting off the Island without a constant. So guess who was nowhere near the explosion in that episode?

Jack, Kate, Michael, Sawyer, and Hurley form a rescue party to save Walt from the Others. (Stop me if you've seen this grouping recently.) Also Sayid, Sun, and Jin take off in a flanking move in Desmond's sailboat. In that episode all these people see the purple sky from the other side of the island. Michael and Walt are released by Ben and presumably don't die. Everyone else is relatively close to the Hatch implosion/electromagnetic discharge being still on the beach.

My theory: The rescuers are the likely Oceanic Six. This would mean Sawyer, Sun, or Jin should round out the Six because they can safely leave the island without buoncing or bleeding.

Also in that episode Ben tells Michael to head off at a bearing of 325, not 305. Does the opening move? Or did Ben send Michael and Walt off on the wrong heading on purpose? Or do the Freighties have the wrong heading?

Ok, after last night's less that "clear" post by yours truly, here are a few more lucide (well, only under the influence of coffee) comments:

- It's pretty clear to me that the type of "time travel" revealed in this epi only happens in one's mind. Desmond never physically left his friends, he only seemed comatose to those around him but his body was still there (remember Eloise, she never physically left the maze).

This could explain Jacob. When Ben was taunting Locke last week, he referred to the fact that Locke wasn't able to contact Jacob.

Maybe Jacob has mastered this method of time travel and he has some plan that he communicates to actors like Ben and Locke at different times to try and prevent some important event from happening (or forcing it to happen...). Maybe he's seen the future and he wants to help (would explain the "good guys" reference by bug-eyed Ben)

- I think that the "dead" people that keep popping up are physically dead but the brain of everybody that sees them, generates there presence for a reason. Ever notice that these "apparitions" are totally individualized and from the past.

- At the end, Des seemed to have regained his memory in the present (2004), I'm wondering if the fact that he now has his constant, will he be able to control his "travels"

BTW

- The three card monty was a memory exercise, rewatching last weeks epi, Charlotte says to Dan "what do you rmember". If it were ESP, she would of said something like "what can you see"

-More trial weirdness: noticed there weren't any TV cameras IN the courtroom. Hey we're in L.A.: O.J. anyone

Back to this weeks epi, a few random thoughts:

-Best line: Juliet to Dan:"if you go slow, maybe we'll be able to understand"

-The sat phone must not be a phone, more of a fancy walkie-talkie, because as Juliet said last week, I'd be calling every phone number still embedded in my mind...."Hello, QVC, do you still have those super Juiceman machines, I'm here on this island with all this fruit and...the address...well about that, here's the thing....

-Is it me or did the light coming from Dan's weird gizmo seem the same color as the sky when the hatch blew...

-How george dies: The Matrix anyone....

-What if everyone, deep down has the potential of beeing ghost wisperers and something on the island triggers this hidden potential (would explain all the dead people showing up for random visits

All for now, sorry for the super-long post but I'm "stuck" at home with a sick child...."to much time on my hands"

P.S. I've decided to keep the One of the six handle until we find out who the six are (after that, it would be like a big lie and all...)

Didn't Penny say something to the effect "I've been looking for you the last 3 years since I spoke to your friend Charlie" What's that about

My assumption on why Des went to jail, is for being Awol from the army.

I love Daniel! We need a Daniel flashback!

The Desmond/Penny relationship makes the Kate/Jack/Sawyer "triagle" look like junior high stuff.

GRAA Mac!

"A Very Special Lost Christmas." Chewbacca's family and Bea Arthur guest star."

Best...line...ever! Maybe we will also get a five minute cartoon of Boba Fett fighting Smokey!

I have been complaining the past four episodes of how I was worried the show was getting into the "too many questions" phase, and let me just say that this episode was brilliant! It managed to do something that most episodes do not, and that is to ask and ANSWER major questions in the same episode. One of my favorite episodes.

I just can't look at Kevin Durand (aka Keamy) and not see him as a Tremor Brother from Smokin' Aces. I kept waiting for him to make a run at Spyid with a chainsaw.

I feel sorry for Fisher Stevens. Clearly, Number 5 is not alive. Not anymore at least.

What the hell is Eckley from C.S.I. doing giving out flu shots on the S.S. Others II anyways. I guess he needed something to do until the strike ended.

I was very impressed what they did with Faraday's character. Impressed in the way that he seemed like a very weak and secondary character, but my has all that changed. He was like Hurley in the grand scheme of things, but it took much less time to show his importance to the grand scheme of things.

That is all for now. I must go and beat Lost: Via Domus for the 360 to see if that gives me any clues about the island.

Dan's line about being exposed to radioactive or magnetic energy (paraphrasing) when he finds out about Desmond's confusion on the boat and then in the journal "Desmond Hume will be my constant"....This could be foreshadowing some events: Dan has been exposed to radation or magnetic energy with all of his experiments (1996) so he could be in danger when he leaves the Island...so if this happens (mind travelling) future Dan (2004) will visit Desmond at some point in the past.

Not sure if I explained consisly but....

Also, the Lost numbers where everywhere in this episode...

Hey, Mac, during the summer, how bout a book club to discuss some of the novels that appear on the show..

On a side note...Des is extremely hot...in any year........

SEE! I told you Aaron was one of the 6! I'm vindicated! HA!

WWWWHHHHHHOOOOOAAAAAA!!!!

Okay, I'm back...I was just transported a couple Fridays into the future in my mind. I guess I won't give anything else away! (Pause to wipe blood away from nose.) ;o)

[Faraday tells Jack and Juliet that "island time" is a little different than "off-island time" (somewhere, Jimmy Buffet nods in agreement).]

Made me LOL Mac. Great review and very funny as usual. You always pack a great punch with so few words, and always hit the most vital points.

The most interesting thing to me was Faraday telling '96 Des that you can't change the future. My theory then, is that two totally different timelines were present. One being the first 'life' Desmond experienced leading up to his island experience, and one that he WOULD HAVE experienced had he stayed in 1996 #2 and lived those 8 years all over again.

In that 2nd timeline he could've made choices that would've kept him far away from the island. But that timeline never got to play out since Des was able to find his 'constant' in 2004 that kept him in 2004. As soon as he did that, then the 2nd 1996 timeline basically ceased to exist.

So Faraday was correct in saying you can't change the future...at least timeline #1 that 'already happened'.

Geeze, I think I'm just confusing myself...cuz this theory doesn't tie in with the ending journal entry Faraday found about Des.

One more quick thing. Faraday said he wouldn't be teaching Eloise the maze for another 2 hours. But she died before he could teach her the maze. Yet, she had been to the future so knew the maze when she 'came back'. But then again, how could Faraday teach her the maze at that point when she already knew it? Doesn't make sense to me...

There's just too many variables to think about when you introduce time travel stuff in a series. But anyway, it was a phenomenal ep and I can't wait to see where it goes from here.

→ 31. Posted by: weepict at February 29, 2008 08:27 AM

Yes, I noticed the doctor in Medium. Wondering if they are doing this on purpose to mess with us?? Placing the actors in other shows...weird huh.

When Des left the room with Daniel and fell down the steps, I wonder why Daniel didn't follow and help him?

It did seem like Penny's dad knew that something was amiss. Why give out an address instead of a number?? Odd. Also, how did Des call her from the payphone if he didn't have her correct number? She had already moved.

Ben is going to be my constant...:)

Don't forget that a Tsunami hit at the end of December 04!

Spoiler alert!!! I figured out how the entire series is going to end... I am going to wake up and there never really was a series, it was all a dream.

what an amazing episode.. im gonna go ahead and say most intellectually engaging episode of the series so far.. i thought flashes before your eyes messed with my mind.. i had NO idea

i love this show so much and these writers really are geniuses. they should seriously give the next nobel prize to the lost writers

#36-one of the dix... seems you already gave it up

Desmond's flash's -- I have to presume he keeps having them, only more controlled with less nose bleeding. He saw Claire get on the heli, Charlie skewered through the neck, Charlie drowning saving Claire, Charlie dieing in the looking glass. Some prior to 'current time', some after.

The best line of the episode was Sayid’s flat affect delivery of the ‘convenient’ line in response to Desmond’s ‘remembering’ the telephone number just at the right moment. Was it suspicion? Exasperation? Cynicism? Whichever is was, Sayid, I feel ‘ya. An episode driven by deus ex machina is no more fun to watch than it is to be in.

So the big mystery of George is no greater than that he’s a red shirt: a walk-on character that exists to be killed in order to convince us that the regular character we care about is in mortal danger. Meh.

Sayid channels the spirit of Russell Johnson and rigs a radio out of coconuts and seawater that lasts just long enough for Desmond to declare his love-across-the-ages to Penny, but not long enough to actually do anything useful. Unaccountably, Sayid, man-of-action, is content to sit passively in the background while his sole lifeline to the world is squandered on a big teary e-hug. I haven’t seen such a cheeseball resolution to a complex time travel dilemma since “Altered States”. Meh.

Speaking of questionably derivative choices, I think 1996 Daniel Faraday went to see “12 Monkeys”, in theaters that year, and on seeing Brad Pitt’s over-the-top mannered performance in that time-travel film thought to himself, “Aha! *That’s* how people deranged by spending too much time thinking about time are supposed to act!” Meh.

And as we were looking over Danny’s shoulder at his notebook, I couldn’t help but wonder what it said about him that Desmond was his Penny. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

I think we're missing a major, MAJOR flaw here people:

Where did the information come from?!?!?!?!

Desmond got it from Daniel right? But Daniel got it from Desmond BUT Desmond got it from Daniel, NO BUT Daniel got it from DESMOND, NO DESMOND GOT IT FROM DANIEL!...

Do you see where I'm going?

Who actually discovered that the machine has to be set at 11Hz at 2.3?

Mac help me out!!

George Minkowski played by Fisher Stevens died in this episode (time traveler dude in the sick bay bed). He is credited with 3 episodes in IMDB however... The Constant, Confirmed Dead, and The Beginning of the End. So expect to see more of him.

Hey Mac and fans,

Does anyone think that the person Sayid was going after, the person who was giving those woman the beepers and stuff, was Penny's Dad?

Im starting to think that!

Great Post Mac Daddy!

Don't know if anyone else caught this but - the experiment with Eloise caught my eye. The light that Daniel had shining on her was the same color as the "Purple Sky" that surrounded the island when Desmond turned the failsafe key.

Hmmmmnnnn. I have to admit, I am a bit surprised at the general tone of the readers regarding this episode. With the exception of #34 gables79 it seems everyone loved it.

I'm lukewarm at best. Don't get me wrong, the story was fantastic, it's just that the whole episode seemed pretty pedestrian and as gables79 said contrived.

Typically, and what I like about Lost, is that they (producers/directors/writers) don't ram things down your throat. A mystery will be revealed and then over the course of many epidodes or a season, clues to that mystery are slowly revealed. It's like enjoying a glass of wine or cup of good coffee. You savor it and enjoy it.

With this episode, I felt like I just chugged a Big Gulp of sugary caffeinated Coke. Right away, this drastic event occurs with Desmond and the whole episode just races through to tie it all up. It seems like such an important reveal should have been treated differently. I suppose it could be argued that the whole sense of speed of the episode was set up to make us feel the urgency of Desmond unlocking his situation. Yeh...maybe I just didn't get it.

And the nosebleeds? C'mon guys...that's the oldest and most played trick in the book. Character gets sick/infected/exposed, and what do they always do? They give them a nosebleed. I was very disappointed to see Lost fall for that cop out.

Anyway, this whole explanation of Desmond went a heck of a long way to explain his older future flashes and give us some hints of what's going on in the island. And looking at the bigger picture, we all have to now wonder how to apply this knowledge to what's going on with all the other characters.

Thanks Mac!

Robert Gale is R.G. on the bracelet, which is Ben's alias.

Hey AC, I just assumed that at some point between 1996 & 2004 Faraday figured out the settings as his experiments advanced. So that's the reason 2004 Daniel was able to relay 1996 Daniel the info through Des.

Sounds like you're thinking that 2004 Daniel knew the info because Des told him back in '96...but that doesn't make sense to me. I think Faraday figured it out on his own as time approached 2004, and that's why he was able to relay the info to 1996 Farady through Des.

So how do they address how this new knowledge affected the 1996 timeline as far as Faraday is concerned? Is the only change the journal entry that 2004 Daniel saw at the end of the ep? Is that a paradox that the producers say they aren't going to address?

Jenny, the initials on the bracelts read RG, i was thinking maybe, Robert Gale, Bens alias...

Kinda explains the need for a submarine now, the chopper doesn't exactly look like the best means of transportation between the island and the rest of the world.

GRAAM!

In Daniel's first flashback/forward, he had a caretaker. Mental impairment because he neglected to cover his noggin when he conducted 20 experiments a day? Also, he was very upset when Oceanic 815 was found at the bottom of the ocean, but he didn't know why. That seems to me like that scene wasn't a traditional flashback, as he probably met the survivors of 815 (what we're seeing right now) before the discovery of the plane. Maybe there are emotional echoes even if the events aren't remembered? Just speculation since it appears now that Daniel is unstuck from time, too.

How fantastic was Sayid in this episode? He sets up the one call from the freighter to the outside world, and without even understanding the importance of it, he hooks up Des and Penny.

→ 7. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau)

I'd forgotten about Naomi already!

1 quick question, does any know if the quardinets that ben gave to Michael and Walt, match up anyway to the quardinets the helicoter took?

One thing I want to point out and i don't think anyone mentioned it yet, is that the first time we met faraday, he's locked up in a home watching the news and the findings of the wreckage of oceanic flight 815. someone asks him what's wrong as he begins to cry. he replies 'i don't know'. so, to me, past faraday has already been to the future, on the island, but hasn't made contact with desmond in the past. does that make any sense? faraday, watching that newscast, has some sort of relationship tied up to the crash...in the past. somehow, faraday is going through the exact same thing that desmond is. does anyone remember this or have any insight they'd like to share?

In 1996, things between Penny and Des were still left that she really didn't want to see him anymore. She reluctantly gave him her phone number, but only after he promised her he wouldn't be calling her soon. Why then did she decide 5 years later to look for him? What events led them to be on good terms? If I recall the timeline, they last spoke just when he was leaving for his sailing race around the world, prior to him landing on the island. It would appear she started looking for him at that point. I guess she must have known he was LOST.

→ 52. Posted by: JoePike

Daniel couldn't have figured it out because Desmond gave the information to him!

@Meg: The first phone call Des made was before Penny moved and changed her number.

@Confused: Boats move.

I think Mr. Widmore is funding the Freighties. They are ignoring Penny's calls and he is very interested in the Black Rock journal. (Maybe he wants to collect the whole set?) The journal must have some information like 'We went through a weird place and somehow escaped. I, the first mate, will not go back but the captain wants to explore again.'

AC...Yes, but you're forgetting that there was a timeline that went from 1996 - 2004 where Daniel hadn't met Des yet. That means that Daniel had to have figured out the info on his own in this first timeline. Des telling Daniel the info in 1996 was a timeline #2...

Nose bleeding again...

I doubt all of this stuff will ever be fully explained as the show goes on, so who knows which of our theories is correct in the writers' minds!.

Desmond also told Daniel that in the future his boat crashes on an island and Daniel is there too.

In Daniel's flash back he is terrified about the Oceanic 815's plane crash 'cos maybe he knew from Desmond that he would end up there etc. Maybe Daniel is experiencing some memory lost like
→ 57. Posted by: kevin
mentioned, something ties him to it and it is DESMOND!

However... I'm still taking about whats really bothering me!

Daniel couldn't have figured it out because Desmond gave him the information!!!

Ok, first my comments on some of the posts:

@bcre8ve (entry #9):

1) I think the calendar on the ship may be something to throw us off the trail. ie: The calendar is showing what they figure should be the date on the island rather than what the "real" date is. Remember: they said there was a big electromagnetic disturbance only two days ago that made them lose all communications. We, as the viewers, of course know that flash happened quite some time ago now when Desmond turned the key in "Live Together, Die Alone". Also, remember that the Black Rock was lost back in the 1800's. If the time differential isn't really a factor then Rousseau is really upwards of 150-200 hundred years old at this point.

2) Faraday's entry in his log seems to me to be a "just in case" rather than a reference to an existing problem.

3) Don't know about Widmore, but Penny's conversation was purposely cut off at a couple of (what likely will turn out to be) key points. I think there was information there that we'll not be allowed to find out until a later episode this season or some future season.

4) I hadn't made the connection with Rousseau's team until you mentioned it. Perhaps the "virus" that she thought was infecting her crewmates was in fact this "mental time travel" phenomenon.

@PiecesofArzt (entry 35):

Regarding the difference in headings that Mike/Walt were given compared the Frank (325 vs 305) I think we'll find eventually that different headings take you to different points in time. Just my theory. It kinda ties into the calendar being 2004 on the ship when we all know that people on the island are there from different points in time yet here they are on the island at the same time.

@JoePike (entry 41):

About Faraday telling Desmond that he can't change the future, perhaps he was just plain wrong or perhaps there are many futures - it just depends on which branch we're sitting on.

Now, I've got to say this episode was just awesome. It blows away all kinds of theories we've been positing around here while reinforcing those same theories at the same time. The Lost writers are just unbelievably amazing storytellers! I'm going to need to see the size of that whiteboard when this series is over. The storylines, the concepts, the arcs, everything is so intricately tied to everything else it must be the size of an airplane hangar wall!

It's just so much information in this episode that can be interpreted in so many ways, I just am at a loss for words about putting forth a single theory this week. That's how overwhelmed I am at things right now. I guess I'll let the smoke coming out of my ears dissipate for a day or two and them come back here to post again. (Likely, I'll read something posted after my post and have to respond before then, but it's still good in theory...)

@MAC - as always, fantastic interpretation of the episode. Your knack for detail is amazing. We're definitely lucky to have you as our "host".

Ok, I'm out. My head has set off the smoke detector in my house...

i think ben knows how to time travel and has mastered it, we saw his passports and cash from different countries in his desk drawer. i also
think he knows charles widmore and may
be working for him. btw its 08:01 here
and no one is on ready or claimed.

Daniel recognised Desmond's name therefore they must have met in 1996 hence Daniel knew that Desmond was about to give him information and he realised that he was the person who gave this information to Desmond... right?

I got a feeling that Daniel knew who Desmond was. If Daniel didn't know who Desmond was why would he ask him to go to Oxford to tell him some numbers?

"The writers' room whiteboards will someday hang in the Smithsonian." I loved that Mac!!! Thought so too!! (Though couldn't expressed it as good :p)

LOVED the episode. One of the best of the WHOLE series!!!

First time poster.

Here are my thoughts from last night's episode, didn't see some of this mentioned in my quick glance of the comments (bear with me, I'm at best a hack sleuth for deciphering this stuff, usually happy and perfectly entertained just to be along for the wild ride that is Lost).

-'96 Daniel remarks that Des had been out for 40 minutes or so (forget the exact amount of time), but Des said he'd only been in 2004 for 5 minutes.

-So, "past" time moves much slower than "future" time, or at least is perceived that way. And Daniel stated as much as the beginning of the episode when trying to explain why the helicopter hadn't yet made contact upon arrival on the freighter.

-THAT time differential (island vs. freighter) was greater than the time differential Des was experiencing in jumping between 96 and 04. Jack remarked that the helicopter trip should have taken 20 minutes but it had been 2 days (or SEEMED like 2 days, Daniel clarified).

-Also, keep in mind that once on the freighter, Desmond starts having trips BACK in time, whereas on the island he was having visions FORWARD in time (albeit very briefly forward).

-So, does this mean that the island is actually in the PAST sometime earlier than 1996? I may be misconnecting the dots here, but I think this is how everything is starting to tie together.

-Another thing that jumped out at me: 96 Daniel remarked to Des that "you can't change the future." It struck me as a poignant "famous last words" line that is going to be crucial to how the story unfolds and proven to very much not be the case - that in fact the future CAN be changed.

-This last point may explain the episode where Daniel becomes is seen crying and distraught when he sees the newscast that 815 wreckage had been recovered, no survivors. Maybe that wreckage was not staged, but a real alternate fate for the flight and everybody aboard, and perhaps he somehow played a part in altering events that changed history.

This was my favorite Lost episode yet, from any season.

-

To quote somebody or other:

"We're gonna need to watch that again."

Haven't read anything...all I gots to say is...Best Episode Ever!!

Look forward to reading ya'lls thoughts.

I really loved this episode. Penny and Desmond are my favorite couple and I was always hoping they'd get to meet up somehow. It made me very happy. =)
Although I was a bit anxious when he was calling her, thinking that he'd die at the last moment.

And like others here I believe Desmond went to jail because he was AWOL.

As for Mr. Widmore. I think he was nicer to Desmond when they met at the auction because Desmond slightly altered his past actions by meeting Daniel so therefore his course of events, while not changing dramatically, still had some subtly different results.

I am confused though about 'Not Penny's Boat' when she said she was looking for him. Could this be her father's boat instead?

And had she been searching for him when the hatch exploded? Where would that put her in the time line? It didn't seem like three years since that incident.

Those are the two parts that have me confused.

→ 58. Posted by: BEMH at February 29, 2008 09:59 AM

I wondered about the chain of events with Des and Penny as well. Where did the monk bit fit in? Could someone try to clarify the whole Desmond timeline?

@Mac, thanks for the recap. enjoy it every time.
@15 I think you might be on to something regarding the Blackrocks log that Widmore bought, but it also raises a lot of questions regarding that. If the BR's log was in possesion of the Hanso family, why did it end in an auction in 1996? I think that as Mac says this will be an important revelation on how the Dahrma iniciative came to be on the island in the first place. We have also to remember that in the second season a parachute full of Dahrma supplies lands on the island, so they are pretty much still around.
It is my theory that Faraday will somehow be the key to this whole mess.

The course heading Michael and Walt were to take was 3.25. I saw a note on the dash of the helo. That said 3.05. Were have we seen the heading before? On Eko stick!! What up with this.

@63. Posted by: LostedIt

I agree with you 100%. I think that the calander is there to throw us off. We know now that the Boaties know much more about the island (via Faraday) then we thought. I think that they are keeping track of the day on the island via that calandar. When Penny said "I have been looking for you for 3 years" I think that it was a clue that it is actually December 24 2007 (2004 + 3 years). Usually my ideas are fully analyized before I get to post them... Any thoughts?

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Juliette is a sneaky lil' minx and can not be trusted. Never. Ever. Ah, I feel better now that I've gotten that off my chest.

Now to focus on Mac's superlative review -- fabulous, funny, clever and insightful as always! Thank you, Mac!

Did anyone else notice the wedding band on Penny's finger in the last scene??!! She's obviously not married to Desmond...so someone else??

@71 meg said:

>I wondered about the chain of events with Des and Penny as well. Where did the monk bit fit in? Could someone try to clarify the whole Desmond timeline?

For a wonderful collection of all the events of "Lost" in as coherent a time line as possible, see:

http://www*lostpedia*com/wiki/Timeline

They're not perfect. Their calculations had the 'present' day island time as Dec 26 whereas last night's ep informed us it was Dec 24.

However, I notice that overnight they've fudged a bit by changing the present day heading to:

"Day 96 - Sunday, December 26, 2004 (on the Island)/Friday, December 24th, 2004 (off the Island)".

I'm not sure if this is going to be born out on the show, or if they just had made a two day error in their calculation (some of the evidence is a little ambiguous). We'll just have to see.

"It's a tour de force on all fronts."

Understatement of the year, Mac. Holy buckets.

This *might* be the first episode that answered more questions than it asked. OK, so it's weird and we don't fully understand it, but we do know why 'Des could see glimpses of the future! Sure, the science behind it is wacky (electromagnets! Who knew?), but we aren't exactly watching a documentary here... ;)

BTW... I'm not convinced that time is moving in a linear fashion here. Meaning... 'Des didn't "remember" the island when he was doing the army thing the first time, because his flashbacks hadn't happened yet. Daniel didn't have any 'Des notes in his journal from his first pass in Oxford because 'Des hadn't jumped yet. Those notes didn't appear in his journal until *after* the 2004 island events.

It's a brain-bender, and no mistake. And I'm likely wrong. :) But that's my theory. For now.

Tour de force... Rawkin'!

FABULOUS episode, amazing recap, Mac!

Going back to last week's episode, I had a flash on inspiration -- Jack last week talked about 8 people surviving when they crashed. We've been talking about 2 people dying... but I think the other two are Michael and Walt! Bringing the total to 8 -- the O6 + michael and walt. Otherwise, why would he have added 2 people specifically. They had to explain Michael and Walt! What do you guys think?

If you read Watchmen, you'll find out what the "freighter" might symbolize....duh duh duhh!

@ 76 - Penny wasn't married. I made sure about that. =) She just had a ring on her right hand ring finger (our left) and there was nothing on her left (our right).

This also makes me wonder if Desmond's meeting with Penny in 1996 caused her to not get married as she would have done prior to him leaving for the boating race.

Hi all,
Just wanted to comment (as someone did before) about he fact that not long ago, alot of people were "tired of all these time-travel theories", well, now we can see that we shouldn't take anything for granted from these writers. What we think are useless theories might just turn out to be very usefull, indeed. Kudos to all the time-travel theorists!!

On another note, my broker just called me and advised me to buy stock in the BlackRock Company! It turns out that it has nothing to do with Lost, but it made me a little nervous for a moment.

ALso, to the person who mentioned above that the actor that played George Minkowski was credited for "Confirmed Dead" and The Beginning of the End" so we might see him again: those were previous episodes, and he is credited for his voice, because the episodes both involve the Losties talking to him on the SAT phone. Just wanted to clear that up.

I just had a bizarre thought. What if the people on the plane really are dead?? Not that they are in some type of purgatory, as the writers dismissed; but, that they are caught in the same sort of time-rift thing. Their bodies exist in two places at once, and in two times. The things that keep popping up from their pasts (Kate's horse, Jack's dad, etc) are their constants.

So it seems that Sawyer may well be the Oceanic Sixth, eh? Farady asked Des is he had recently experienced any extraordinary electromagneticism. Thanks to Locke, most of the 815ers did except for those who went to Bensylvania. They got tied up on the dock when things went whacky and Des turned the key.
Great recap Mac, always a joy.

In regards to how Daniel/Desmond figured out the settings to be 2.342 @ 11, Daniel figured it out because he told Desmond to go back and tell him...make sense....

There was an old Valiant Comic Book (hey, some of the Lost writers are comic book writers, Brian Vaughn anyone...) called TimeWalker with a guy who jumped through time. The premise behind the book was that the future could not be changed because what happened in the past had already determined the future. In one issue TimeWalker tries to stop charge of light brigade because he hates that poem but in the end he ends up causing the charge. Same thing here, Daniel figured it out because Desmond told him and then in future Daniel sent Desmond back to tell him what Desomond had already told him.

As for the boaties, Daniel explains that only ppl who have had massivie exposure to radiation/electromag so where had George/Brandon been to be exposed to massive radiation???

I think that maybe the island itself is possibly jumping through time much like Desmond (would explain why it so hard to find and how the Black Rock is in the middle of the island...boat is travelling and island appears underneath???)

Also, it has to be Daddy Whidmore who is in charge of things on the boat since it has to be someone who knows Penny for them to tell the boat not to answer phone calls specifically from her.

Also, weren't all of the Oceanic 6 on the water at end of Season 2 when explosion went off (Jack and gang were on a pier, Sayid in boat), so none of them had physical contact with island???

Also, time seems like a good premise behind the show, remember that Sun/Jin were on Oceanic 815 because Sun's dad was having Jin deliver a watch to someone in LA? Why have someone personally deliver a watch??? FedEx anyone???

Overall, great season, with exception of last week's Kate episode which was maybe a little weak.

I think it is still 2004. Why would a ship carry around a calendar that is 3 years out of date? Just in case some people caught in a time trap got on their boat when they weren't supposed to? The show '24' doesn't take 24 weeks to explain so why couldn't 'Lost' still be in the past.

Besides the impending tsunami will 'bury' the fake 815 so no one can explore the details.

@ Manny: Post #10; Great thought! "Is jacob a lost conscious?" Yes, he could literally be stuck between times hence the cry to Locke of "Help Me."

@87 PiecesofArzt asked:

>I think it is still 2004. Why would a ship carry around a calendar that is 3 years out of date?

To make the food better? (See William Least Heat Moon's "Blue Highways".)

People, please be aware that *conscience* is the little voice in the back of your head that says it's not right to pull your sister's pigtails, even when no one is looking.

What's travelling through time is Desmond's *consciousness*, or "awareness", or, if you want a really short word, "mind".

OK. I am really confused right now, I thought I had a handle on this show until now. Thanks everyone for your insights and theories. I came away from this episodes with far more questions than answers. For the person who brought up Rousseau's crew's "sickness" - aha!
I can't wrap my head around why Faraday asked Desmond to seek him out in 1996 and give him the settings for his "future fryer". Was this a correction that has implications in 2006? Did that one moment make this whole series possible? I feel a nosebleed coming on, too, and we're in an endless past/future loop that never stops! I thought Ben's moniker was "Henry Gale" - did one of his many passports also say "Robert"? Ditto about Sayid's sacrifice of their one communications device - he can be such a softie sometimes!

@ Cecil Rose #89: How funny (not in a ha-ha but in a funny-peculiar-how coincidental way)... I was discussing Blue Highways w/a friend at breakfast just yesterday. Wonderful book in terms of making one think about one's own life.

I haven't seen the episode yet (*@!#% VCR tape...we're still in the 20th century re TV technology) but couldn't wait to read Mac's AAA (Awesome As Always) review & see what people had to say.

Over in the Forums Capt. Nemo has a very interesting post on what he terms a Grand Unified Theory w/regard to the island, its various inhabitants, & time travel. (Yes, I know, JoePike...we don't need no stinkin' forums! ; > )

Sorry I meant 2004 - like anything makes sense...

@72,

but theres the time dilation effect, or whatever you want to call it. The parachute full of supplies could have been launched a long, long, long time ago. I'm guessing theres 1 bearing it could arrive on, and NOT be time shifted. For all we know, the helicopter that dropped those supplies dropped it 10 years ago, and it only just arrived. After all, we never heard any aircraft fly overhead.

I don't understand why everyone thinks this episode "is in the Top 5!". It was really hokey, and reminded me of a cheesy sci-fi made-for-TV movie.

The only good things were the Desmond-centric nature of it (I love him!), the fact there is finally confirmation that there is some sort of time issue on island, and a kinda-explanation for Desmond's ability to see into the future.

Was that Mrs. Hawking (the freaky jewely store lady that told Des about the universe "course correcting") sitting in the audience during the auciton?

I'm at work and can not check DVR...anyone else notice that? If it wasn't her sitting behind Widmore, it looked a lot like her.

@78 Posted by: Combat Chuck

I don't buy into the idea that Daniels note regarding Desmond as his constant "magically" appears (a la Back to the Future Style). Based on the evidence provided, it is more likely that Daniel simply could not remember that he had met Desmond, or that he had written a note about it. I think this is why they had the scene where Daniel could only remember 2of3 cards.

This time-traveling of the mind definitely has memory loss side-effects - which only seem to be resolved with the use of a constant.

*** Conceptual Spoiler *****

Keep in mind - the writers have worked pretty hard to reinforce the idea that the future can't be changed, even when some form of time travel into the past occurs.

In the first podcast, the producers stated that while they will play with bending space time, they will not allow paradoxes to come into effect.

The example they use to demonstrate this was a reference to the first season of "Heroes", where the story arch is the heroes trying to prevent New York City to blow up. The character of Hiro has the ability to travel in time, and in one episode, future (super cool) Hiro visits season 1 (super nerd) Hiro. In future Hiro's timeline, New York City blew up, and he is trying to change that. At the end of season 1, New York city does not blow up.

This creates a paradox. If New York does not blow up, then the future Hiro who travels back to geek Hiro does not actually exist anymore, so how could he go back and give the warning?

I think memory loss will be the way the Lost writers avoid paradoxes, and maintain the idea that the future will always unravel as is, despite time travel experiences.

Thus - 2004 Desmond (stable due to constant) remembers all experiences. I think we will find out that post 1996 Desmond will not remember his time travel experience, but will be deeply disturbed as a result of it. As some have speculated, this may be what will land him in military jail.

OMG!

Just read the review and can't believe I forgot to watch last night! Thank God for DVR...

fave-macism--the very special Lost Christmas with Chewbacca's family and Bea Arthur--priceless!! What no animated Boba Fett?

Still I feel so pathetic for forgetting it was Thursday. Let me preface by saying that I HATE playing video games. However we recently purchased a wii and I got started playing some Marvel SuperHero game. I totally lost track of time and ended up playing the game until 1am! I missed Lost for a video game (again thank God for DVR...but still...)
Sorry to divert too much from topic but I just needed to make my confession--I feel sooo dirty!

Thank you and now back to the regularly scheduled blog comments--I'll pipe back up after I watch the ep! It sounds like a doozy!

i'm still wondering where the chuck are Micheal and Walt? are they Ben's man on the Boat???
Did anyone else find the Dr. like the creepiest Dr. ever? I mean that dude comes out while i'm in the waiting room and i'm bailing.

I just listened to the official audio podcast on ABC.com. Just to clear one thing up real quick... (Sort of spoilerish, but doesn't really give anything away...just stuff we really want to know at this point.)

The producers reinforced that the show is 'paradox averse', meaning that when a character time travels, nothing they do can change the present or future we have already seen on the show. This is why they introduced the concept of 'the universe having a way of course correcting' so many episodes ago.

So even if a character goes back in time and changes something significant, the universe will 'course correct' so that the future we know (and love?) on the show remains intact. So none of the future-flashes we've already seen can ever be changed.

Glad that's cleared up for sure.

They also touched on Eggtown a bit, but unfortunately didn't mention anything about the courtroom screw ups we've talked about here so much.

They did mention though, that by the end of episode 7 we will know 100% who the Oceanic 6 are. (AARON! AARON!)

Interestingly, they also brought up that it doesn't really matter who the other 2 of the total 8 Jack talked about are, since what he said was a lie.

@56: it's spelled "coordinates"

Great review, Mac, thanks!
I generally don't read books about time travel because they make my head hurt, but if you're interested in one that doesn't have so much of a sci-fi feel (I know, why would anyone reading this blog want a NON sci-fi book ;-) ), read "The Time Traveler's Wife" by Audrey Niffinegger. It was great, and didn't cause severe headaches!
The fact that time is "different" on the island might be why none of the women seem to have hairy armpits (THAT would have put a different spin on the Sawyer-Kate caged sex scene!) and the men have scruff, but not beards as long as "Zeke's" fake one.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm:

Eko's Jesus stick was carved with 'Look north, John 3:05' and that was also Frank's heading: North 305.

Some people have mentioned that maybe the Oceanics ARE dead (the wreckage is real) and that the island and its special properties have created past or future (I'm confused) alive selves (minds) on the island. Would this somehow lead to an explanation for how Hurley sees Charlie in the future?

Penny and Des were "off-again" in 1994 but dad didn't hate him so much then...so he gave Des the address. After 1994 Penny and Des are "on-again" and dad is mad...we've seen Penny and Des together post 1994 but dad doesn't approve. Des decides to enter sail competetition to win dad's approval...and ends up on the island. Penny is in love with Des, knows he is missing, and tries to find him. Des wasn't on the plane crash, so he could have been missing for three years (how long penny has been looking for him). Remember, he was in the hatch and sailing around going nowhere for who knows how long.

oops....1996 not 1994 (it's 2004)

No paradoxes, eh? What if Daniel had refused to teach Eloise how to run the maze? But he can't, because she already knew it, right? So, he was "forced" to go through those actions in the future? (nosebleed)

Seems like free will may come into play at some point, and the most likely person to exercise it will be Jack, who seems to enjoy being contrary in many cases. "Let's not teach her the maze and see what happens then...".

GRAA Mac -

Amazing how you condense so much physics noise into a coherent synopsis.

IMHO this was a great episode and a true turning point in the series - much was revealed that a significant premise behind the island weirdness is tied to time travel.

One question I have - why did Desmond time travel to 1996? Is 1996 significant for other reasons? Otherwise he could have just as easily travelled back to nursey school.

Was 1996 signifianct for Dharma?

Any thoughts...

The course heading Michael and Walt were to take was 3.25. I saw a note on the dash of the helo. That said 3.05. Were have we seen the heading before? On Eko stick!! What up with this.

→ 73. Posted by: micHael at February 29, 2008 10:44 AM
Things that make you go hmmmmmmm:

Eko's Jesus stick was carved with 'Look north, John 3:05' and that was also Frank's heading: North 305.

→ 102. Posted by: GatorGal at February 29, 2008 11:46 AM

As you can see I have been wondering about this also. Did Eko give more of a clue then we first through?

Ok, so what if the card experiment on last weeks show was an exercise to see is Dan could control going forward in time and retain the memories. the last scene where he finds the note to himself about desmond being his constant makes me think there more to that scene then just a memory trick.

Well... I'm new to the forum and somewhat to the series, but thanks to past time travel, I've caught up. This probably may have been discussed before, but does the time-warp explain how Hurley won the Lottery?

So does Eloise stay dead so Daniel can't teach her the maze in an hour? I'm really having a tough time "getting" this, but still love it!

109. Posted by: Mary

I was just about to type the same thing. I think that he can't remember the three cards from the future.

I hate this episode. Introducing the concept of actual time-travel (as opposed to the more benign visions) could very well provide Lost with the intial energy needed to slide down the slippery slope into contrivied cheesiness.

The aspect of Lost that has always appealed to me is the element of science fiction. The ghosts, smokey, the magic box, all of these are cool ideas, and I never seemed to mind that they didn't quite make sense.

Time-travel, however, is a different beast entirely. As already mentioned by several previous posters, the concept of time travel brings about some serious and irreconcilable lapses in logic.
(I can't find the original post to give proper credit, but whoever mentioned "how can daniel '96 teach the rat in 2 hours what it already knows and is dead..." illustrates my point perfectly).

My point is that I finally realized that I don't need answers. In fact, getting the answers lessens my enjoyment of the show, because the answers are fairy-tale nonsense and only serve to disconnect me from the "reality" of the show.

It's like traveling 13 hours by car to disneyland when you were a kid, almost pissing yourself from excitement for the whole trip, and then getting there and realizing mickey mouse is just some jerk in a costume.

To quote someone from last year: Razzle, dazzle! Terrific ep. And Mac, you are just the best. As a longtime Parrothead, the Jimmy Buffett reference was classic.

Best comic quote of the night: Sayid says "Give me a minute".

Clementine, I absolutely fell apart (ie cried) when Des and Penny connected. And yes, Henry Ian Cusick is HOT! To avoid a catfight of our own over him, you can have the 1996 Des; I prefer the 2004 version.

When the show ended last night, all I could say was: my head hurts. The writers are undisputed geniuses.

Is Charlotte a time traveler, too, or simply Daniel's lovely assistant? I have a million other questions, but will defer to the rest of you and your thoughts. I feel a nosebleed coming on.

Seems a lot of posters can't get over the whole 'Faraday gave Des the info/Des gave Faraday the info' thing. I think it's either that Faraday eventually figured out the correct numbers himself (before coming to the island) but wants Des to tell him in 1996 so that he can get a head start (like being locked out of your house in the freezing cold for 3 hours before you eventually find that the back door is unlocked- wouldn't you love it if someone came from the future and told you to try the back door? You'd save hours of misery) or- here's another option- Faraday figured out the info somehow while on the island. He's been conducting experiments and thinks he's got it. Also, someone asked what's up with Faraday saying he wouldn't teach Eloise the maze for another 2 hours, but I'm pretty sure he actually said another hour (not 2). So the 75 minutes works fine there.

I have to say someone really knows were this show is going when you watch an EP with Desmond as the focus. The reason I think this is because of his appears. He goes from a full beard to clean shaved and long hair to short hair and it does not look like it is fake or makeup. This means they shot the scenes with beard and long hair weeks ago then filmed scene with the short hair no beard later or the other way around. They have been doing this type of scene mixing with Desmond for a quiet a long time. Which means they have this mapped out a long way out, so bearded scene or no beard scene have been in the can for a while.

Well somebody has to ask,,,,,Where does Ol’ Smokey play out in all of this?

Desmond was flashing the light in his own eyes trying to initiate time travel, was that what Ol’ Smokey was doing to Kate and Juliet when they were handcuffed together and hiding in the jungle trees and the super bright light was flashing at them?

Long time reader- first time poster.
@100 Joe you wrote: "The producers reinforced that the show is 'paradox averse', meaning that when a character time travels, nothing they do can change the present or future we have already seen on the show. This is why they introduced the concept of 'the universe having a way of course correcting' so many episodes ago.
So even if a character goes back in time and changes something significant, the universe will 'course correct' so that the future we know (and love?) on the show remains intact. So none of the future-flashes we've already seen can ever be changed."

This makes sense however... why during Desmond's flash-fowards last season if something changed, the future was changed. Charlie was saved several times by altering present events?!?!? It was only when Desmond chose to not intervene did Charlie eventually die.

Long time reader- first time poster.
@100 Joe you wrote: "The producers reinforced that the show is 'paradox averse', meaning that when a character time travels, nothing they do can change the present or future we have already seen on the show. This is why they introduced the concept of 'the universe having a way of course correcting' so many episodes ago.
So even if a character goes back in time and changes something significant, the universe will 'course correct' so that the future we know (and love?) on the show remains intact. So none of the future-flashes we've already seen can ever be changed."

This makes sense however... why during Desmond's flash-forwards last season if something changed, the future was changed. Charlie was saved several times by altering present events?!?!? It was only when Desmond chose to not intervene did Charlie eventually die.

I'm glad Eloise is dead.....worst character ever!!..plus, I hate rats!!

I don't know if anyone posted this already, but when they are auctioning the Black Rock, I believe the item number is 2342. Another Easter Egg?

Has anyone thought to compare Desmond's profile with the screen caps of Jacob? Hmmmm.

@AC ->62:

Let's try this -

In 1994 Daniel Faraday is working on a time travel experiment with Eloise. He can't get the machine to work and he spends the next 6 years trying different frequencies and oscillations. Then in 2000 he hit's upon the right frequency and the experiment works.

In 2004 Daniel Faraday is on the island and Desmond tells him he's flashing back to 1996. Daniel needs past Desmond to convince 1994 Daniel that he's telling the truth. Daniel remembers the frustration of the failed experiments in 94 and knows that by giving Desmond the correct frequencies 1994 Daniel will be skeptical but will believe him enough to try the information. When it works he'll then completely believe Desmond is from the future.

So you claim that it's a paradox because of the whole information exchange and that Daniel wouldn't have had it if Desmond hadn't traveled back - etc etc etc.

I believe it's still possible the way it's explained above. Daniel discovered it and gave it to Desmond to have it given to past Daniel before he would have discovered it anyway. Either way - Faraday get's the machine to work.

Maybe I'm not making sense.

Adjusted anagram for future reference:

ANTP? = Anyone Notice The Pee?
*Chuck Widmore took a massive pee in this episode!! Sweet! Can you say Easter Egg?

@124: I noticed the pee, but I didn't think it was a particularly long pee in an of itself but rather an effect of prostate issues causing him to have difficulty starting his stream (note the look of aggravation on his face). Of course, being a nurse, I do sometimes have a different take on things. Probably why I got annoyed when the good "Doc" jabbed a needle in Fisher Stevens in a place that you would not give an injection, although that's a minor matter next to the potential paradox of time travel.

This ep made me cry almost as much as when Ol' Yeller takes a dirt nap. Guess I'm just an old softie...

Elizabeth Mitchell and Sonya Wilger...good Lord...my cup runneth over...

I don't think Old Man Widmore was being nice to Des when he gave up Pen's address. I think he thought Penny would slam the door in Des' face and get some closure.

And the numbers showed up someplace else I just can't remember exactly where...something had the descriptor 42231615. Anybody? Bueller? Bueller?

sorry; that was a typo; I meant "in and of itself"

This might have been covered, but I haven't read all the comments.

There seems to be a hole in the plot where as Des would know about the call he would have to make to penny while on the Island. But, it seems like what ever happened to Des in the copter made his mind/consousness beome that of 1996 Des. So for the whole episode, Des on the freightner had Des's 1996 mind. Now once he had the constant and talked to penny, Des on the boat finally got his 2004 mind back, and he remembered sayid, etc.

If we look at Back to the future style, this is the starting point of a new time line, where as the Des we saw in 1996 will now have the future knowledge. The des we see on the boat is the original point of the new timeline and would not have had that knowledge, but all subsequent Desmond's will.

with that said I think my brain is about to burst, goodnight all

@ Mister_Grimm/#123: Exactly!! Well said indeed.

Also, I believe that Faraday's black book has a whole slew of juicy info that we'll be usefull in the future. I think someone (besides me) should do some screen-shots of him flipping through the pages. If I recall properly, the page opposite of "Desmond Hume will be my constant" had what looked like a table/graph where on one axis it said 'real-time' and the other axis says 'imaginary time'? Alright, everybody get on that....NOW!!

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction regarding Ben's ability that was referenced by Miles last week.

In season 2 when Ben was being held captive in the Swan hatch there were a couple of instances where the Jack, or Locke would open the door to his cell and Ben would slowly straighten up - almost as if he had just been meditating or napping. What if he was actually traveling? Ben's ability might be that he can focus his consciousness and travel at will.

Just a guess. Last night's episode connected the dots for me.

Did anyone notice the Actor playing Keamy (from Vegas on the boat) has another acting connection to Lost. He was in Wild Hogs as Tom (Mr. Friendly or Zeke) sidekick when they find the Wild Hogs in the little town in New Mexico.

@6 Clementine:

ROTFLOL!!!

That was awesome! Gotta get back to the rest of the posts.

@77 Cecil Rose
Lost Timeline.

Can't wait until they post a new timeline. Would it read?

So in 1996 Desmond was in the Army and was busy stopping a nose bleed he was going to have in 2004.

I'd like to see the universe correct itself if Desmond in 1996 went bonkers from the flash-whatevers and killed himself or better yet Dan.

But if Des kills Dan how will he be in Saving Private Ryan...Oh the mind positively reels...

Red...Neck...Man:

You can already find screen caps of DF's chalkboard and notebook on the 'net. A couple of interesting points.

His chalkboard says "Kerr Metric" and has equations and diagrams consistent with the label. The Kerr Metric is a field equation solution for describing the behavior of a rotating black hole. That doesn't seem to relate to "Lost" much, but for this: One implication of the Kerr Metric solution is that a rotating black hole can create a wormhole at it's event horizon--one that allows (theoretically) an object to physically time travel to its own past.

Another interesting aspect of both the chalkboard and the notebook is that they apparently contain calculations and diagrams relating to the Lorentz invariant, which is the notion that objects moving at different relative speeds wind up at different points along the time axis in the spacetime continuum, and perceive the passage of spacetime differently on account of that.

OK, Charlie's last message to Des was "Not Penny's Boat" because Penny had said "what boat?" or something like that, convincing Charlie and us that she knew nothing about the freighter. Well then, why has Penny been calling the freighter?

#133 SamFin said:

>Can't wait until they post a new timeline. Would it read?

>So in 1996 Desmond was in the Army and was busy stopping a nose bleed he was going to have in 2004.

They've already added the events from last night to the timeline. The new entries for 1996 are:

o While in basic training, Desmond goes to visit Daniel Faraday at Queens College Oxford. ("The Constant")

o Charles Widmore wins the journal of the first mate of the Black Rock at a Southfield's auction, after which he gives Desmond Penelope Widmore's new address. ("The Constant")

o Desmond goes to Penny's new house, asking for her phone number so that he can call her eight years later, on Christmas Eve, 2004. ("The Constant")

@Clementine: i agree with everything you said after "a few random thoughts." EVERYTHING.

→ 113. Posted by: markthefish
"I hate this episode. Introducing the concept of actual time-travel (as opposed to the more benign visions) could very well provide Lost with the intial energy needed to slide down the slippery slope into contrivied cheesiness."

The only saving grace is we don't have to worry about paradoxes. Nothing we've seen so far that is going to happen in the future can be changed, so nothing has been a waste of time (Bobby Ewing anyone???). That takes some of the cheese factor away.

118 Nurse M:
"...why during Desmond's flash-fowards last season if something changed, the future was changed. Charlie was saved several times by altering present events?!?!? It was only when Desmond chose to not intervene did Charlie eventually die."

I think the difference is that what Des was seeing were 'premonitions'...the way things could happen. Really it's all the same though. The universe was going to course correct and kill Chuck one way or another evenutally, when Des had his guard down.

But the big difference here is that the producers are saying nothing we've seen as far as what happens in the future can be changed. Des could change it because it 'hadn't happened yet'. The future we're seeing of Jack/Kate/Sayid/Aaron... actually DID happen...they just decided to show us some of the story of Lost out of order.

I just listened to the podcast. They said it didn't matter who the other two survivors were, just that are 6 now making up the Oceanic 6. So if it doesn't matter, why even make that up, just say 6 survived.

@103--Hurley is hot

First there's meg and ilovebenjaminlinusxx competing over bug-eyed ben

now Hurley is hot?
Anyone else going to lay claim to Hugo?

Here's hoping Josh Holloway and Matthew Fox don't read this blog--they might start getting a complex!

Crispy, it just proves that there's someone for everyone..:)

"So if it doesn't matter, why even make that up, just say 6 survived.
→ 140. Posted by: Rudy"

Because it's very relevant to the Oceanic 6's cover story (Kate as hero, believability, etc).

It's just not relevant to US as viewers watching the Lost story on TV. The producers are pretty much saying...don't make a big deal about who eventually gets revealed as #'s 7 & 8 in Jack's story...it's a lie so it doesn't matter in the mythology of the story.

But again, it was very necessary as part of the cover story for Jack and Co.

Thanks JoePike, that makes sense now. Could you now explain to me last night's episode :)
At the end when 1996 Des (why does the podcast keep saying 1994) is walking away from Penny's place and you get the sense of "calmess" that everything has been made right, does the 1996 Des suddenly forget getting that phone number? I understand that the 2004 Des stops going back to 1996, but does the 2004 Des have that 1996 memory anymore?

Not sure if this was posted but Fisher Stevens was in another time travel movie back in the 80s call My Science Project - Great Movie Bade Effects. Great Recap Mac

→ 41. Posted by: JP
Don't forget that a Tsunami hit at the end of December 04!
→ 87. Posted by: PiecesofArzt
Besides the impending tsunami will 'bury' the fake 815 so no one can explore the details.
------------
I don't think the 26 Dec 04 tsunami has even the slighest chance of coming into play on the island or for the freighter. The freighter thugs said their last port was "Fiji" and they joked "hey... at least we know we are in the Pacific!". Other than that, 815 was 6 hours (3200 miles) in the air when they tried to turn back, and then went off course (SE) by a 1000 miles that puts them NW of Tahiti and East of Fiji. Rousseau' story about her boat/crew puts the island closer to Tahiti than Fiji based on range/supplies of her vessel. That rough wag puts the tsunami epicenter about 7200 miles from the island with two major land masses in between, therefore no tsunami.
As for the fake 815 in the center of the Sundra Trench, South of Bali. That is 1600 miles from the tsunami epicenter in the far NW end of the trench (and around a corner). The tectonic plate did not shift anywhere near the fake 815... though I do like the plot twist... if they want to slip in losing the fake 815.

If you did not like that episode, you may as well watch reality TV. Time travel/warp/wrinkle has been implied for years (in our time), so I was not disappointed by it. I think the writers have a new and compelling twist on the subject -- the conciousness travels, not the body -- I have not seen that one before, in all of the various time travel movies, books . . . that plus the "paradox aversion" makes it interesting to me.

Also since they made it clear that it is 12-24-04, it's hard not to think the earthquake/tsunami two days later is going to play some role - if only to bury the "wreckage" of the plane that was found? (near Bali?)

Other random thoughts/responses:

Farraday's machine 2.342 . . . Black Rock lot 2342 . . . Mr. Widmore's purchase of the "seen only by the family" log (recovered from, not by, pirates)leads to Penny's search . . . and/or maybe to Mr. Widmore being the guy who runs the ship?
RG - Robert Gale? it's Henry Gale (HG) who is dead . . . what is rousseaux's connection to the black rock ship? I can't recall what she said about it when she showed it to our guys . . . good stuff.

I don't know if this was posted yet....but Johnny 5 is sooooooooo not alive!!

So Faraday sends his rat into the future, right there in his '96 lab. One would assume improvements to the design could be made, and by oh say, 2000 he should have a super-woopie version, again in the lab, capable of transporting people. Reasonable?

So why the hell is he out in the middle of nowhere trying to find this island that (apparently very haphazardly) does the same thing via natural (?) properties? If he has a machine on his desk that does the job, why is he on that freighter in the first place? Makes no sense at all.

I enjoy good SF, which almost invariably relies on "science" that flies in the face current theory/knowledge, but is also self-consistent and logical, even if only within it's own contrived framework.

I'm sorry, but this show is quickly revealing itself NOT to be good SF, because it is neither self-consistent nor logical. I am especially irritated at Abrams, et al for suckering me into believing they actually had a new angle working here. Back in S1, when a lot of people suggested this was going to be yet another crappy temporal-distortion plot-line, the Lost powers that be swore up and down there were valid scientific explanations for everything. I feel like I've been taken by a used-car salesman ... the time-travel "science" being tossed about on Lost now is no more valid than dilithium crystal anti-matter warp drives on Star Trek ... and at least Star Trek was consistent and dedicated to its own mythology. Mixing bits and pieces of actual physics/math theory does NOT make it logical, even within an admittedly fictional premise ... it just condescends to viewers because one can wiki the sporadic references and get something "real" back.

Time-travel story lines, with and without "paradox" issues, have been done a million times before by SF authors, and much, much better than anything the Lost writers will throw together (case in point - "The Dechronization of Sam Magruder" by George Gaylord Simpson ... everything Lost aspires, but miserably fails, to be).

I still enjoy the character interplay, and will not abandon the show, but I'm done trying to figure out the plot. At this point, the more time the writers try to justify the plot with "science," the more likely I am to stop watching. I really don't care if it doesn't make sense in the real world, but it should
make sense within its own universe. Oh, and the producer/writers should stop LYING to their audience - I will never believe another damned thing they have to say.

@ ealgumby/#149: Thanks Grumpy McGrumperson. jk

Long time reader, first time poster. I apologize for being redundant, but I didn't get to thorough read others post. Okay, not really a mastermind conclusion, but I guess this explains what the "sickness" is. My question is what originally protected Rousseau from getting this unbrainquilibrium? My theory is that it has something to do with why Ben ended up with Alex. They are looking for Ben because he is the master at brainquilibrium. Then again, he couldn't take all those passport and all that money with him.

Another point, is I am having trouble with the notion that the future can't be changed. Seriously, does anybody think that our series hero Jack is going to end up some depressed alcoholic or is it that we just haven't seen far enough into the fast forwards?

This show is to complicated for my brain. I just want to go back to the days when they were still in purgatory. I get worried that I am going to waste all this energy into lost and then it is going to have some really unappetizing ending.

One more thing...and again, sorry if this is isn't a new idea, but this may also explain the significance of losties appearing in each other's flashbacks. Maybe there was some brainquilibrium time travelling going on. I have to go back to old episodes, but the idea that the losties were connected before the crash always seemed strange to me, but not as much as if they are travelling to the past.

re:→ 150. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man

I was going to say "Hey Doctor Feelbad, your nose is bleeding."

But EALGUMBY makes some valid points I agree with, on some of the disappointing or frustrating aspects of our beloved saga.

I have a counter-theory that may help.

@Mister_Grimm/123 explained the time travel best so far. I'd like to add/clarify to this as well.

The past is done and will not repeat itself. Desmond simply dropped into his past (1996) for a visit, and then resumed his life again in the present (2004). He doesn't relive the past again from the point of his visit. Therefore Desmond won't know while in the hatch or on the island that on the helicopter he'll go back in time. He only knows this from THAT point in time ON the helicopter.

Daniel already knew the information he gave to Desmond when he told him to go back to 1996 Daniel. He sent him to his past self in hopes of helping Desmond to better understand and cope with what was happening. At this point I would think that Daniel himself would better qualify as Desmond's "constant", since Desmond now knows Daniel from the past and the future. I'm not sure why his constant had to be something or someone so "important". Daniel already understands what is happening to Desmond, but explaning it to Penny would only be a nightmare.

Anyway, Desmond used Daniel's information gathering skills between future/past to do the exact thing but in reverse. He needed something now (2004):Penny's phone number, but he could only get that info from the past. So during his next visit to the past, he got the phone number. Again he didn't know about this visit in the hatch or on the island because his visit did not yet occur. He only knew this on the boat just prior to making the call.

I hope you all agree with this simple concept and can better understand the episode.

Peeve: Why did they have to introduce another Daniel to the show? We already have Daniel Rousseu.

Wouldn't it have been great if Faraday was like.....

"Desmond, you have to find me in 1996...and when you do...tell me these exact words....'When the time comes, place a bet that O.J. will be found innocent...even if it's beyond comprehension...place that bet for every red cent you own.'."

I think the concept some of us are having trouble with is...why wouldn't Des re-live the past again (1996-2004) from the point of his visit? Because in our minds, if he doesn't, then his 'dropping into his past' never really happened. Guess we'll have to accept it as just part of the show...

→ 151. Posted by: Elizabeth
"Seriously, does anybody think that our series hero Jack is going to end up some depressed alcoholic or is it that we just haven't seen far enough into the fast forwards?"

I think it's the latter. We haven't seen far enough into the future yet. He'll snap out of it when he inevitably returns to the island. Then he'll either stay there permanently or lead a happily ever after life when he leaves again for good.

This episode reminded me why LOST is the most amazing show on tv. By far the best episode yet.

_______________________
here is my shot at quote of the month.
_______________________
re: → 151.
... what originally protected Rousseau from getting this unbrainquilibrium?

I think the answer is:

"BrainQuil - the night-time, stuffy, sneezing, can't get your nose to stop bleeding, want to wake in your own time zone, cold medicine."

Something that popped into my mind that actually hasn't been mentioned yet: In the Odyssey, Penelope waited for Odysseus for 20 years. She was CONSTANT in her love for him. So it was appropriate on another level that Des chose Penny to be his "constant."

→ 147. Posted by: t4 at February 29, 2008 03:09 PM

"Also since they made it clear that it is 12-24-04, it's hard not to think the earthquake/tsunami two days later is going to play some role - if only to bury the "wreckage" of the plane that was found? (near Bali?)"

Okay, since we're in a fictional world with whopping big magnets and other scientific weirdities... Maybe something the Losties/Others/Your Faction Here does CAUSES the tsunami...

@Red...Neck...Man/#150:
Thanks Grumpy McGrumperson. jk

@DocH/#153:
I was going to say "Hey Doctor Feelbad, your nose is bleeding."

Too funny ... thanks for bringing me back from the dark side to a happier place.

Someone mentioned seeing Mrs Hawking/jewelry store lady at the auction, sitting behind Widmore- I missed that...
Also mentioned, was the monk from Desmond's past (does he play a part??)
I recently rewatched "Catch-22" and if you look closely on the monk's desk, there is a picture of him and Mrs Hawking/jewelry store lady. I think we will see these characters again, but what roles they will play- anyone?

No way to prove or disprove at this point, but could the bidders for the Black Rock logbook be the same men that Future Sayid is whacking at the behext of Bug-eye Ben? They sure got a lot of facetime for non-speaking roles.

Could the bidders for the Black Rock logbook be the same bunch of dudes that Future Sayid is whacking at the behest of bug-eye Ben? They sure got a lot of facetime for non-speaking roles.

must....renew....braincells....

I just have a few ideas to add.

1. I think Charles Widmore gave Des the address because he already knew he was SUPPOSED to. He's totally behind everything.

I think there are gatekeepers (hello Ghostbusters!) like the jewerly lady who try to make sure no one gets any funny ideas.

2. I much prefer island Des to 1996 Des - En Fuego!

3. People are only traveling backwards from the present.

4. Per #3 - Is that why the babies all die? They didn't exist in the past?

I have to add that in grad school everyone I knew was doing their dissertation on Electromagnetic fields and it's relationship to cancer. All sad , negative, unpublishable studies. If only they were trying to skip through time....

Crap...double-post...

Someone may have addressed this above, but I didn't read everyone's comments. Question: if Desmond left Penny in 1996 why did she tell him on the freighter phone that she's "been looking for him for 3 years", not 8?

Someone may have addressed this above, but I didn't read everyone's comments. Question: if Desmond left Penny in 1996 why did she tell him on the freighter phone that she's "been looking for him for 3 years", not 8?

Maybe there's more than one boat. When Penny said "What boat?", maybe she really meant "Which boat?"

It's just a jump to the left
And then a step to the right
Let's do the Time Warp again.

Sorry. Just couldn't help myself.

@1...5...5... Red...Neck...Man said:

>"Desmond, you have to find me in 1996...and when you do...tell me these exact words....'When the time comes, place a bet that O.J. will be found innocent...even if it's beyond comprehension...place that bet for every red cent you own.'."

Only problem is the OJ trial was in 1995. I was out of work at the time and watched nearly every minute of it.

I didn't see it mentioned, but some people had questions as to why Penny was looking for Desmond for 3 years, when the plane crashed only 3 months before... remember, Desmond was already ON the island far before Oceanic crashed...hell, he is responsible for it..LOL

Also, based on this, I wonder if Desmond subconsciously knew how to get to the island (during his race around the world) already based on this time-epi. Remember when Eloise ran the maze that supposed wasn't even learned yet?? I thought that may be an interesting connection.

MAC, you brought a long-term reader, first-time poster out of my lurkism! GREAT GREAT Episode and review.

@"Constants" I like the "caused it" theory.
I read something about the eathquake causing days to be a little bit shorter (the earth spins slightly faster now) and tilted it a bit too. Changed time in a sense . . . As for effects of the earthquake, the waves went all over the southern oceans, though less impact with greater distance . . . here is an animation, I hope:

http://tinyurl.com/2hq7wj

I think the best line should be:

"At least it was a bloody military dream!!"

I find it interesting that 1996 Desmond is the part of his consciousness that is time traveling. If Desmond starts the time warping thing after he is on the island (after being discharged from the army, sailing and being shipwrecked to win Penny's dad's approval, pressing the button, etc.), wouldn't it make more sense for that Desmond circa 2004 to leap through time, back to 1996? In that case he would have been able to remember everything from the island and onward. However, we already know this is not the case- 1996 Desmond is the one traveling, which is why he all of a sudden does not remember Sayid, the island, etc. Which makes me wonder as well, if 1996 Desmond is the consciousness jumping back and forth between then and 2004, he would return to 1996, then remember all his flash forwards from 2004. In turn, he would carry these memories all through 1996 until his crash on the island. Yes?

Charlie-Lite talks like he wants to be Jack Nicholson...

I don't think I heard Desmond say, "Brutha" once last night!

can anyone explain what the signification of that point in time is for Desmond, i.e. 1996? Why would he go back to that point in time?

Thanks!

can anyone explain what the significance of that point in time is for Desmond, i.e. 1996? Why would he go back to that point in time?

Thanks!

@120 - LOL. At least Eloise's acting was far better than Paulo and Nikki's! :D

C.

As for Penny's statement "What boat?"... She was never trying to contact the boat. She didnt know there was a boat out there. She was radioing the island, hoping Desmond would answer. The boat happened to intercept the signal (but ignored it).

So my theory is: Penny's dad gets the logbook. Penny reads it. Penny finds out about island. Penny also knows Desmond entered the sailing race. Penny speculates Desmond got trapped on island. Penny looks for signs of the island. Penny receives notification of an EM event. Penny starts trying to broadcast to that area of world, in hopes of reaching Desmond. Freighter is on scene, intercepts communications, and ignores it, as to not give away their presence.

Thanks for crunching the episode so my husband can understand it Mac.

This was a great episode because it backed up all my theories. Therefore it must be wrong. Maybe it's a giant red herring to confuse us and ask more questions that we missed with all the time traveling? I like the idea of important info in Dan's book.

I also like the Jacob is a mind lost in time idea too. Thanks for that.

Desmond asks Mr W "Why do you hate me so much?" He answers "I'm not the one who hates you" Or something like that. Who hates him?

I want to read that BR log SOOOOOO bad.

@149 Posted by: ealgumby

What! Are you trying to tell me that Lost is no longer realistic now that a time travel concept has been introduced?
C'mon.....

Seriously - I think we all appreciate the research the writers have conducted to make things much more interesting, and that you just have to let some stuff slide.

Nothing wrong with a little time travel tossed in the great brew that is Lost, as I think it is but a portion of what lies ahead....

More paradoxical thoughts:

Miles - Needs millions from Ben so he and his handlers can buy ancient logbooks at auction, to find the island.

Ben - Sneaks ancient logbooks off-island so he can sell them at auction... to raise money to give to Miles, to keep the island from being found.

Vicious cycle!

I agree with some who are getting frustrated with the standard television script plot twist, Back to the Future explanations, and growing continuity errors.

In Eggtown, the legal/factual issues were all wrong.
In The Constant, the science/factual issues were logically inconsistent.

For example, the inconsistencies in Lost’s time and space concepts:

1. Mouse/Desmond/Faraday body stays constant in the same time and place, but their mind can be teleported to a different time and place by electromagnetic frequencies. The mind’s movement between times with new information is confirmed but one cannot change the past or the future. This implies that history is pre-determined and unchanging.
2. A rocket launched from a ship has a 31 minute difference with the island but a radio signal frequency to/from the island (the same distance) is instantaneous.

The show is not about time travel. It is about the perception of reality. A simple premise buried in metaphors, symbolism and fantasy elements makes a complex storyline. The 1996 Faraday explanation made the most sense when you strip away the red herrings of scientific theories. He said the body stays in a constant time and space, but the mind can be transported to a past time and place or to a future time and place. The truth of those statements is that a mind being transported to a past time and place is a “memory,” and a mind being transported to a future time and place is a “dream,” “fantasy,” or “nightmare.” Without a Constant, a ground, your brain will short circuit between memories and dreams.

In the Lost storytelling, a person’s flash backs are memories, flash forwards are a person’s dreams, and the island time (present) is a person’s perception of reality. We all assumed at the beginning of Lost that the characters were on Flight 815, that the plane crashed on a real island, that the survivors were having real experiences. What if that assumption is totally wrong.

I'm just glad Eloise was a rat/mouse, not a poor harmless rabbit, this time. You think if the Bunny #15's from the orientation film saw each other at the same "time" they would get nose bleeds and their bunny brains explode like Eloise?

As Des was going into the phone booth, another soldier came out and knocked his coins out of his hand. When he was picking up the money he had something in his hand (paper). He was looking at the soldier walking away strangely.
What was the connection?

While watching Eloise in the maze last night, I kept thinking to myself "Run, Algernon, run!!!!" (I can't believe no one mentioned that yet...)

@141 Crispy Seaplanes....I certainly hope Matthew Fox reads these comments because he will see that I have taken the good doctor over anyone else since day one...And I don't have to fight for him with anyone here ;)

Is there any chance at all that when we are watching the flash forwards of the O6 we are actually seeing something they are experiencing in a "jump" in time? And that when Jack calls to Kate that "they have to go back" maybe it's because they can't figure out how to get their consciousness back to island time?

Did anybody hear the item that was up for auction after the Black Rock book? I think I picked up something about a book Dickens was reading when he died.... funny tidbit.

More clues: I agree that there is probably no actual travel thru time - per the producers and half the voices here. The term that fits best is "Astral Projection". It was researched some in the 50's and 60's, but became quite a phenomena in the 70's, right around the time when the DeGroots and Dharma were stepping things up.

Astral Projection - The partial or complete separation of the Astral Body* from the physical body, and visiting another locality, near or far. This normally occurs in sleep - though, as a general rule, one does not recall the experience on waking. The adept can command their astral body to go any place they desire in order to make observations and investigations, and acquire essential information. Vivid dreams are sometimes the result of these travel episodes.

*Astral Body - A replica of the physical body, but more subtle and tenuous. It penetrates every nerve, fibre and cell of the physical organism and is constantly in a supersensitive state of oscillation and pulsation. The psychic faculty within the astral body is impressionable to extra-sensory vibrations. The astrological concept is that of a magnetic field wherein the individual does most of his thinking, and from which they draw impressions by way of interpreting changes in the field due to cosmic radiation.
__________
Don't kill the messenger...

@ 136 "Leegull" - When Desmond calls Penny from the freighter (wonder what the international dialling codes are - no doubt 4 11 23 etc!) the signal breaks up mid-conversation and I wondered if Penny was suggesting that her conversation with Charlie had taken place a lot longer ago than the Island-time of three or four days, or whatever it is since Charlie's hand-writing (literally) days were up.

I am thinking 'The Looking Glass' is definitely some sort of link between time-lines, by the way.

@ 149 "elgumby" - 'one man's meat is another man's poison' etc. You surmise that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that Faraday could have invented a machine capable of transporting a person through time by now - it would be as easy to call bs on that as the scenario(s) offered to us by Lost right now.

We don't even know when Faraday got his settings correct for his rat-ray either - it might have been the week before they came to the island for all we know right now.

Oh, and maybe Faraday thinks (or knows) that it would be better to visit the island 'for real' rather than being beamed in via a dilithium flux capacitor holodeck gizmo at this point.

"Tea. Earl Grey. Hot."

:)

Glad the regulars round here brought you back from the brink. May I humbly suggest you go and write "Red...Neck...Man and DocH are my constants" somewhere safe!

One thing I would say, though - the number given for calling Penny is not like any genuine London, England telephone number - it should start with the prefix 021 (possibly 0121 back in 1996 - can't remember) which is quite strange.

Even stranger - if you call it you get a pre-recorded message from 'Doctor Marvin Candle', whoever that is.

Just kidding!

I can't help pondering the confluence of two facts:

1) The novel Sawyer was reading in bed, "The Invention of Morel" was about a fugitive hiding on a South Pacific island when it was apparently overrun with tourists. But the "tourists" don't interact with him even when, after an initial period of hiding from them, he began to reveal himself to them, even falling in love with one from afar. The "tourists" turn out to be solid projections (nowadays we'd call them "holograms"), projected by the titular invention of Morel.

2) Ben telling Jack the freighter people would "kill every living person on this island".

=================================

A) What if some of the "persons" on this island aren't actually living?

B) Maybe the Oceanic 6 are the only ones to get off the island because they are the only "living" persons on it?

C) And the others (and the Others) are "something else"? And that's why some can heal so quickly? And why they can't have babies?

C) And maybe this is bound up in some way with this 'mind projection'?

D) Or maybe this is what Jack's been told, and why he leaves the vast majority behind, but now he's beginning to doubt what he was told, and feels guilty about leaving them there and yearns to go back and find out for himself?

re: Astral Projection.

The Institute of Psychophysical Research in London, at Oxford University (Daniel's school) is one of the premiere institutions to advance understanding of the working of the human mind by scientific research, in this field.

Uhhh-hhhhhhhh. Cecil Rose said 'titular'.

Uhh-huhhh-huhhhh-huhhh!

Cecil (If I may refer to you thus) - I remember Ben's '...every living person...' line as standing out when he said it too - and it's one of the reasons why I loves me Lost. It could very well hint that not all of our castaways are as alive as we would like to think, or one could simply point out that the nasty freighter-ites would not have much incentive for killing non-living people on the island and it was just a dramatic quote.

So many questions, so much time!

Oh, and I would think that there will be a lot of raised freighter-eyebrows in Regina's direction since she has been doing such a fine mc'ing stand in for George Minkowsi (who looked like he was brown bread to me, Mac, in case you're reading this)....

In the course of the past seasons there were more than a handful of superb episodes and Desmond episodes are generally written very well. This one is my new favorite!

I still think there are multiple timelines which sometimes get mixed up because of the purple sky incident. Simple "time travel" in the sense of going back to the past and thereby change the future doesn't make any sense. I suppose we don't see the past and the future on a single timeline but instead the writers show us multiple alternatives of past and future events. Although Desmond switches between past and future timelines, the important property is that there must be multiple timelines and not a single one. It also seems that the "big picture timeline" is quite static, i.e., Desmond couldn't save Charlie in last season's ending.

Some wild speculations:
- Desmond was "saving the world" by pushing the button. I suppose we underestimated the purple sky event during the last season.
- I hope Desmond won't die in one of the next episodes. I just can't get rid of the feeling that he isn't among the Oceanic Six because Sayid is with him and we know he will be responsible for someone's death.
- Could it be that Jack wants to go back to the Island (last episode of the last season) because he wants to change or even "correct" the timeline? I suppose Lost could even end in a timeline in which no plane crash happened at all ... my head spins and my nose bleeds ;)

Keep up the good writing, Mac!

In the course of the past seasons there were more than a handful of superb episodes and Desmond episodes are generally written very well. This one is my new favorite!

I still think there are multiple timelines which sometimes get mixed up because of the purple sky incident. Simple "time travel" in the sense of going back to the past and thereby change the future doesn't make any sense. I suppose we don't see the past and the future on a single timeline but instead the writers show us multiple alternatives of past and future events. Although Desmond switches between past and future timelines, the important property is that there must be multiple timelines and not a single one. It also seems that the "big picture timeline" is quite static, i.e., Desmond couldn't save Charlie in last season's ending.

Some wild speculations:
- Desmond was "saving the world" by pushing the button. I suppose we underestimated the purple sky event during the last season.
- I hope Desmond won't die in one of the next episodes. I just can't get rid of the feeling that he isn't among the Oceanic Six because Sayid is with him and we know he will be responsible for someone's death.
- Could it be that Jack wants to go back to the Island (last episode of the last season) because he wants to change or even "correct" the timeline? I suppose Lost could even end in a timeline in which no plane crash happened at all ... my head spins and my nose bleeds ;)

Keep up the good writing, Mac!

In the course of the past seasons there were more than a handful of superb episodes and Desmond episodes are generally written very well. This one is my new favorite!

I still think there are multiple timelines which sometimes get mixed up because of the purple sky incident. Simple "time travel" in the sense of going back to the past and thereby change the future doesn't make any sense. I suppose we don't see the past and the future on a single timeline but instead the writers show us multiple alternatives of past and future events. Although Desmond switches between past and future timelines, the important property is that there must be multiple timelines and not a single one. It also seems that the "big picture timeline" is quite static, i.e., Desmond couldn't save Charlie in last season's ending.

Some wild speculations:
- Desmond was "saving the world" by pushing the button. I suppose we underestimated the purple sky event during the last season.
- I hope Desmond won't die in one of the next episodes. I just can't get rid of the feeling that he isn't among the Oceanic Six because Sayid is with him and we know he will be responsible for someone's death.
- Could it be that Jack wants to go back to the Island (last episode of the last season) because he wants to change or even "correct" the timeline? I suppose Lost could even end in a timeline in which no plane crash happened at all ... my head spins and my nose bleeds ;)

Keep up the good writing, Mac!

sorry for the tripple posting -- connection problems...

I read about half of the posts and I don't think anyone mentioned this...
Many of you keep talking about Daniel and Des. My opinion is that Daniel DID indeed figure out the settings on his own. He had never met Desmond at that point, which is why he knew that would be the only way to make his 1996 self believe Desmond was really time travelling.

As for the the picture Naomi had of Desmond and Penny, if Widmore is funding the freight, maybe he knows that Desmond is stuck on the island. He either A. Doesn't want Penny to find Desmond, so he wants the Freighties to do something about it (they said they were looking for him before it was revealed that they wanted Ben.)
or B. If Daniel did remember Desmond, he would know that Penny was his constant and maybe he contacted her while he was still in Oxford.

Just my little thoughts.

First of all, I love your reviews... they make me laugh and bring up some interesting points at the same time.
Just a few random ideas I had:

1. I have no idea why finding a constant would make Des stop hopping back and forth from '96 to '04. Thinking logically, the only thing this would do would stop his brain from coming out of his nose or imploding or exploding or whatever happened to Minkowski and Eloise.

2. I have no idea why all this information about jumping back and forth in time will come in handy. Let's see... who else was exposed to that 'large amount of radiation' (when the hatch blew)? Des... yeah, we got that one. Charlie? Dead. Eko? Dead. Locke...? Well, we know he isn't leaving the island anytime soon. So how is the information we learned going to be useful? I mean, is it really so important that we learn why Danny's brain is messed up that the writers dedicate a whole episode to it?

3. Why in the world did 2004 Desmond have no idea where he was or what was going on, yet still recognize people and places from 1996? Yes, I know it's because he lived that time before, but, still, why does that mean that he doesn't know anything from '04? If this all works the way I think it does, he should be able to remember things from both sides. Weird... I must be missing something.

4. Des + Penny = Extreme cuteness. Although that phone call at the end... I wasn't sure whether I wanted to saw "Aww..." or "Ew...". I hate sappy romances, but that phone call at the end was kind of nice. And I finally realize that... *gasp* they actually put a not-beautiful woman on a TV show!!! Excellent. I'm sick of television being run amuck with hot guys and beautiful girls.

5. So... we finally learned why Des was kicked out of the army. I love it when little holes like that are filled in.

6. At that ending scene, when Des was talking to Penny on the phone in '04, why did it keep switching back and forth between '96 Des walking away from Penny's house and '04 Des yakking on the phone? There's no way he would've jerked back and forth that fast and still carry on an intelligible conversation. I think it was just for effect.

7. Sayid and Des have a friend on the boat! Well, someone opened the door for them, anyway. My vote goes to Frank Lapidus.

8. 1996 Faraday did NOT look good with that weird freaky long hair.

9. Finally, I've been able to put decent labels on the Freighter Four.

Daniel Faraday= Mad scientist with mental issues

Charlotte ???= She just seems to radiate 'evil'. I don't know why.

Miles Straum= Sarcastic, angry ghost buster

Frank Lapidus= Confused, drunk pilot who always seems to have dried blood on his face for no reason.

That's all! Sorry for rambling...

First of all, I love your reviews... they make me laugh and bring up some interesting points at the same time.
Just a few random ideas I had:

1. I have no idea why finding a constant would make Des stop hopping back and forth from '96 to '04. Thinking logically, the only thing this would do would stop his brain from coming out of his nose or imploding or exploding or whatever happened to Minkowski and Eloise.

2. I have no idea why all this information about jumping back and forth in time will come in handy. Let's see... who else was exposed to that 'large amount of radiation' (when the hatch blew)? Des... yeah, we got that one. Charlie? Dead. Eko? Dead. Locke...? Well, we know he isn't leaving the island anytime soon. So how is the information we learned going to be useful? I mean, is it really so important that we learn why Danny's brain is messed up that the writers dedicate a whole episode to it?

3. Why in the world did 2004 Desmond have no idea where he was or what was going on, yet still recognize people and places from 1996? Yes, I know it's because he lived that time before, but, still, why does that mean that he doesn't know anything from '04? If this all works the way I think it does, he should be able to remember things from both sides. Weird... I must be missing something.

4. Des + Penny = Extreme cuteness. Although that phone call at the end... I wasn't sure whether I wanted to saw "Aww..." or "Ew...". I hate sappy romances, but that phone call at the end was kind of nice. And I finally realize that... *gasp* they actually put a not-beautiful woman on a TV show!!! Excellent. I'm sick of television being run amuck with hot guys and beautiful girls.

5. So... we finally learned why Des was kicked out of the army. I love it when little holes like that are filled in.

6. At that ending scene, when Des was talking to Penny on the phone in '04, why did it keep switching back and forth between '96 Des walking away from Penny's house and '04 Des yakking on the phone? There's no way he would've jerked back and forth that fast and still carry on an intelligible conversation. I think it was just for effect.

7. Sayid and Des have a friend on the boat! Well, someone opened the door for them, anyway. My vote goes to Frank Lapidus.

8. 1996 Faraday did NOT look good with that weird freaky long hair.

9. Finally, I've been able to put decent labels on the Freighter Four.

Daniel Faraday= Mad scientist with mental issues

Charlotte ???= She just seems to radiate 'evil'. I don't know why.

Miles Straum= Sarcastic, angry ghost buster

Frank Lapidus= Confused, drunk pilot who always seems to have dried blood on his face for no reason.

That's all! Sorry for rambling...

...or perhaps Charles Widmore and Ben are the venture capital behind Daniel, since he's emerged as the central player.

Yeah, good question, Kate, why DID it keep switching at the end between Des and Penny talking in 2004 and 1996 Des walking away from Penny's flat? Anyone have a theory?

Penny is the daughter of Captain Jack, (Widmore) who'll right the "upside down" ship.

Sorry if any of this has been said before but i only got to about post 75 out of 160 before my eyes started to bleed.

Im a little curious if the whole screwy time deal has anything to do with why the women on the island always die if they get pregnant? Mabey the children devenope way to fast in the womb for the mothers to live through the early stages. there bodies just cant handle the rapid changes. Its a pretty well exepted fact that children pick up on things faster than adults, so mabey they are more succeptable to the time varients on the island. the only child on the plane was walt, i think he was around 10?, and we already know he has some wierd conection to the messed up stuff happening. Mabey he is "unstuck" in time as well and travels back to vairous times to warn the losties. That taller ghost walt comment is starting to look less and less crazy on locks part LOL. I just hope this whole time travel thing isent a hastily put together plot point to explain how walt could age 4 years and grow a foot in what is only supposed to be a few months.

That might also explain why Clair lived since she was close to term anyway when the plane crashed. Arron looked about 2 or 3 in the future flash with kate so i assumed it was awhile later but what if its only supposed to be a few weeks or months latter. that might explain why Jack was so wierdede out about seeing him, as a doctor and self proclaimed man of lodgic im not supprised that a extremely fast growin child might freak him out. It might also explain why kate didnt want him on the stand, it might raise questions as to why he is so big.

My next point is about the numbers and the hatch. I think that mabey the whole point of them was to keep a relativley safe route of escape open for the others, or whoever was running the hatches. I dont remember if ben told michel to stay on course 325 before or after the sky went purple, Someone help me out that has a better memory than mine, but mabey the hatch explosion changed the "safe" course of the island which resulted in walt becoming a giant time traveling ghost form of himself. That can also account for the different course that the choppa pilot took.

And finnaly good ole' charlie apearing in the future. Technically he was off the coast of the island when he died, and whos to say those afected by the time travel affects always go backwards. Mabey as he lay there waiting to die he jumped forward to tell his dietary deficient freind the whats what about the after life and such. Its possible that because hes "dead" he only jumps in consiousness, and the combination of there closness, hurleys general bat shit insanity and his connection to all things crazy on the island, he can see charlies consiousness when others cant.

#203. Posted by: cmac

I think the only thing you spelled correctly was = L O L =.

They make 100 watt bulbs now. Check it out.

Love (really) the blog Mac.

Are all the extras (really) dead?

I know this question is going to piss someone off (I think I was originally responsible for Cindy's scarf and that fiasco!), but I am too buzzed to go back and look at the past few posts to see if it has been mentioned.

Why does father Widmore lleave the water on in the bathroom??

I thought this episode was GREAT - one of the best so far, for sure... Just one thought that I didn't see mentioned by anyone yet. Assuming that the Oceanic Six get off the island via the freighter (which is certainly an assumption), original freighties who survive would know that the Oceanic Six were lying about the story they apparently tell when they get back, a la the story Jack tells at Kate's trial. Daniel, Charlotte, Myles, they all meet additional Oceanic survivors beyond Kate, Jack, Aaron, Hurley, and Sayid, for example... So do the freighties die or go crazy -- or are they somehow in on the lie? Or am I completely missing something?

@ Dharma-boy and Kate:

I had thought that things kept switching between 2004 Desmond and 1996 Desmond at the end to represent the successful connection using a constant upon Des making the call to Penny from the freighter, thereby rectifying Desmond's consciousness during both time periods. In other words, the Des of 1996 was somehow simultaneously aware that Des in 2004 had succeeded, and that's what brought a smile to his 1996 face (which I seem to remember, correct if I'm wrong).

I think that the electromagnetic explosion set off the tsunami, since time on the island is not the same time elsewhere.

"Her name was not on the passenger list!" Now WHY would someone memorize all the names on a flight passenger manifest? That fact has to have some significance.....

long time poster, first time reader

Hey Bunnylover - i too was relieved at the lack of harm to bunnies! Finally!

Crispy Seaplanes - Still wish you'd start a cereal brand!

long time poster, first time reader

Hey Bunnylover - i too was relieved at the lack of harm to bunnies! Finally!

Crispy Seaplanes - Still wish you'd start a cereal brand!

This is a little silly. The author of this post seems amazed that writers planned out Desmond's story arc more than 12 episodes in advance.

Imagine when he picks up a novel or something. Authors plan their stories often for 5-10 years. Not 12 dinky episodes.

The time travel thing has the potential to be very very gimmicky. And nothing in Lost really makes a whole lot of sense. It is mostly a series of unusual events happening, with lame characters named 'John Locke' and 'Rousseau' trying to appeal to pseudo-intellectuals. If the writers bothered to read any Hume, Rousseau, or Locke, they'd realize how all of them are rolling over in their graves at this horror show.

I've been chatting with my brother over this one.

I didn't catch it, but he seems to think he saw the Dharma Logo represented in Eloise's maze.

Wouldn't that put a pickle in things.

Could anyone check on that?

Thanks

Wonderful episode, wonderful recap, I wonder if they really will acknowledge Christmas next week? I do think all the theories spelled out are great reads, My 2 cents are when you see that Damon + Carlton wrote the episode, you are in for some mythology. After this big reveal, it seems quite elegant that the whole series is based on 'flashbacks' or 'flashforwards' on an island that can do a Billy Pilgrim on your ass. It will tend to make some logical errors, but let's see where it leads, isn't that the fun?

@ Meg #206 - I was also struck by the fact that Widmore didn't turn off the tap and initially thought it had something to do with an OC germ-phobia - notice that he first turned on the tap using a hanky so his hands wouldn't come in contact with the tap-that-has-been-touched-by-gawd-knows-how
-many-filthy-mitts. Maybe it was to emphasise he's a selfish Pr**k who just does what he wants, regardless of the impact on others, so rather than trouble himself with manouvring the tap again via said-hanky, he just leaves it for someone else to deal with. (we're on water restrictions here in Australia, so the wasted running tap water made many of us Aussies a tad anxious! ;)

Hee hee! Glad to see the time/astral travel concept messing with a few minds. Love it!

:)

I just read over my past post about Widmore's OC germ-phobia and noticed my unintentional cross-network promotion of Alan Dale's other starring role in Orange County. Of course, I meant obsessive-compulsive, but in Lost world - every slip of the tongue HAS MEANING! Hee hee.

Or maybe he was waiting for Ugly Betty to turn the tap off for him before he went home to Ramsay street...

The calendar had X's on each day except from October 20th to October 24th. According to www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline:October_2004, I don't see anything special about those four days. I think it might be those few days that Minkowski spent outside the boat looking for the island with Gordon.
Either that or a red herring.

→ 63. Posted by: LostedIt

You seem to think that Russeau was on the Black Rock. That is not the case. She was on a French survey ship that crashed on the island in the 1980s.

Great Review Mac, hope your brain is doing better one day later!

Why in Jacob's name isn't Charlotte telling her ppl on the boat that Ben's got someoone in there with them?

And lemme get this straight... Desmond left one girl hanging to join a monastery and then did the same thing to Penelope and joined the army? Guy has issues...

One of the best episodes though... season 4's more than making up for some really bad spells in previous seasons... think we have the strike to thank for that somehow.

Answering to:
--------------------------
Yeah, good question, Kate, why DID it keep switching at the end between Des and Penny talking in 2004 and 1996 Des walking away from Penny's flat? Anyone have a theory?
→ 201. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at February 29, 2008 09:08 PM
-----------------------------
Because he is already talking by phone with his "constant", so he is free of the time jumping. Both stories now continue separated and "disconnected" because Des found his constant, IMO.
BTW, excellent episode. The best of the season by far. Congratulations to the writers and editors for the last scene of penny and des talking by phone

Wow, the commentary here is unbelievable! You guys rock! I had so many responses in mind to each and every one of you, but then I traveled to the future (at the end of this post) and learned that my excessive wordiness resulted in the system-failure of the Lost Blog, so I quickly returned to the present and edited myself. Yes, this is the edited version. Please scroll down about 3 feet, if you’d like to skip it. This is Clementine, by the way, in case you nod off before you get to my name.

Speaking of names... it’s so great to see all the new ones and the long-time lurkers, first-time posters. And the return of Gramma Pole Lice and BunnyLover!!! My day is complete :)

Now let’s get started:

*********
>>>And by the way, what happened to Naomi? Did they take her off the chopper? Did she fall out during the turbulence? I'm sure Desmond's condition threw them all for a loop but you figure Sayid or Lapidus might have remembered to tell someone, hey we brought back a dead Naomi!
→ 7. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 29, 2008 12:18 AM

Because of the time differential (jump back), I think Naomi arrives on the freighter the same day she dies on the island, December 24th (Disclaimer: this is pure speculation, don’t jump all over me, people). Would that make her alive? (Hello, Madame Frankenstein!) At the very least, I think some island hocus-pocus is afoot. Last we saw Naomi, she seemed awfully fresh-faced and non-stinky for a dead girl rotting in a tropical paradise. Maybe she scooted off to confer with the mysterious, missing Regina? Or maybe Sayid didn’t want to make a bad situation worse by presenting that gorilla Keamy with a corpse, while Des was freaking out on the flight deck.

*********
>>>I don't think 1996 Desmond remembers any of the experiences of time travel.
→ 13. Posted by: shikotee at February 29, 2008 01:55 AM

Well, Island Desmond didn’t seem to recognize Daniel (and vice versa). But he was insistent about getting on the helicopter. Would he not have that memory because he’s Des Version 1.0 before the trip back to 1996, and somewhere there’s a Des Version 2.0 who’s progressing through time with those memories? It just doesn’t make sense to me that Desmond would remember his future-flashes that happened on the island in 2004, but not his future-flashes that happened in 1996.

>>> In that 2nd timeline he could've made choices that would've kept him far away from the island. But that timeline never got to play out since Des was able to find his 'constant' in 2004 that kept him in 2004. As soon as he did that, then the 2nd 1996 timeline basically ceased to exist.
→ 38. Posted by: JoePike at February 29, 2008 09:17 AM

Eh? Now I’m totally Lost. If there are no paradoxes, then the future would have course-corrected no matter what happened in the past, so why can’t Des just remember his 1996 future flashes, and enter the sailboat race because he knows he has to end up on an island at some point?

>>>I think memory loss will be the way the Lost writers avoid paradoxes, and maintain the idea that the future will always unravel as is, despite time travel experiences.
→ 97. Posted by: shikotee at February 29, 2008 11:34 AM

I hope not. That seems like a cop-out to me. (Someone get me a bucket and an I.V. – I’ve got the mother of all nosebleeds.)

*********
>>>Walt appearing at different times and at different ages on the island. After leaving the island and mastering time travel, did he go back in time to the past Lostaways to help them with his future knowledge?
→ 26. Posted by: Claire at February 29, 2008 07:49 AM

Walt’s case (and your other examples) were different from what we saw with Des. Walt did not have a physical body in both places for his consciousness to jump between. His appearance was similar to Jacob, in that he was a projection. So, can the advanced ones make a likeness of themselves appear in different times (Walt), project their consciousness into someone else’s body (Jacob into Christian Shephard), and travel not only across time but physically across space (Ben and his passports)?

>>>Maybe Jacob has mastered this method of time travel and he has some plan that he communicates to actors like Ben and Locke at different times to try and prevent some important event from happening (or forcing it to happen...). Maybe he's seen the future and he wants to help...
→ 33. Posted by: One of the dix at February 29, 2008 08:58 AM

I see someone got there before me. But I’m going to call you Prosecutor67 until you get those typos under control.

*********
>>>This would mean Sawyer, Sun, or Jin should round out the Six because they can safely leave the island without bouncing or bleeding.
→ 32. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 29, 2008 08:55 AM

That’s some darn good reasoning for a guy in Pieces. I hope it’s true, if only because it will result in JoePike eating his choco-hat.

>>> WWWWHHHHHHOOOOOAAAAAA!!!!
→ 38. Posted by: JoePike at February 29, 2008 09:17 AM

Not so fast, there, brotha! And when the time comes, there will be no substituting Crispy Seaplanes for the choco-hat.

*********
>>>Meh... Meh... Meh...
→ 45. Posted by: Deep Cover at February 29, 2008 09:29 AM

Say it ain’t so, DC! Not the triple “meh”! This episode had it all! I laughed, I cried, I bled from the nose... what more could you want? :)))

*********
>>>@Confused: Boats move.
→ 60. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 29, 2008 10:01 AM

Note to future self: Nominate for Lost Lines Contest 2008.

*********
>>>Eko's Jesus stick was carved with 'Look north, John 3:05' and that was also Frank's heading: North 305.
→ 102. Posted by: GatorGal at February 29, 2008 11:46 AM

>>>As you can see I have been wondering about this also. Did Eko give more of a clue then we first through?
→ 108. Posted by: micHael at February 29, 2008 12:14 PM

Well, I was going to say, maybe Eko had a future-flash after being present for the hatch implosion which led to the inscription on his stick. But he would not be alive in the future, so was he an advanced traveler like Jacob? Maybe he had a vision by sending his consciousness to someone else in the future? I need to stop now.

*********
>>>Clementine, I absolutely fell apart (ie cried) when Des and Penny connected. And yes, Henry Ian Cusick is HOT! To avoid a catfight of our own over him, you can have the 1996 Des; I prefer the 2004 version.
→ 114. Posted by: lovelost at February 29, 2008 12:43 PM

Let this be a lesson to all those who face struggle and strife, all those in the midst of conflict and aggression, all those who quarrel needlessly over ownership of a hot, fictional, television character! Peace in our time, people! Lovelost has offered her hand in friendship and I graciously accept.

Of course, if Daniel resolves the Orchid film dilemma, so that the 1996 and 2004 versions of Desmond can exist in the same time and the same place... I want them both. I’ll take you down, lady.

*********
>>>This show is too complicated for my brain. I just want to go back to the days when they were still in purgatory. I get worried that I am going to waste all this energy into lost and then it is going to have some really unappetizing ending.
→ 151. Posted by: Elizabeth at February 29, 2008 03:21 PM

To misquote some worthy scribe, “Lost is a journey, not a destination.” Can the big reveal at the end ever live up to our expectations? Who knows for sure? But in the meantime, I plan to enjoy every second of this show and the Lost Blog. And mad props, as always, to the Mac Daddy.

*********
>>>I recently rewatched "Catch-22" and if you look closely on the monk's desk, there is a picture of him and Mrs Hawking/jewelry store lady. I think we will see these characters again, but what roles they will play- anyone?
→ 162. Posted by: Kitty Doyle at February 29, 2008 04:09 PM

Well, Kitty, we have a little acronym we like to use around here... its ANTP standing for “Anyone Notice the Picture?” And you may be our one-millionth ANTP-er! Congrats on that. I’m quite sure they will show up again, but who knows when or why? And I don’t think that was the lovely Mrs. Hawking at the auction, by the way. Another little tidbit from this episode: The courtyard at Oxford where ‘96 Des finds Daniel is also the backdrop of the Monk and Mrs. Hawking photo!

*********
>>>The term that fits best is "Astral Projection".
→ 188. Posted by: DocH at February 29, 2008 06:36 PM

Is that you, Shirley MacLaine? ;)

*********
>>>Some wild speculations:
→ 193. Posted by: Margot at February 29, 2008 07:27 PM

Aaack! I hope your second bullet point is just something I forgot that I knew and is not a spoiler! Because I made a commitment to a spoiler-free lifestyle starting last spring. It makes Lost much more enjoyable for me. Anyway, if you do post spoilers, just remember to put a SPOILER disclaimer at the top, please and thank you :)

*********
>>>I have no idea why finding a constant would make Des stop hopping back and forth from '96 to '04.
→ 198. Posted by: Kate at February 29, 2008 08:05 PM

Amen to that! Contrived, I say!

>>>And I finally realize that... *gasp* they actually put a not-beautiful woman on a TV show!!! Excellent. I'm sick of television being run amuck with hot guys and beautiful girls.
→ 198. Posted by: Kate at February 29, 2008 08:05 PM

Eh? I think Penny is very beautiful. Next you’ll be saying Des is not hot, and then I will have to contract a hit on you by Psycho Crispy. And you don’t want to mess with him, girlfriend. He’s a cereal killer.

>>>At that ending scene, when Des was talking to Penny on the phone in '04, why did it keep switching back and forth between '96 Des walking away from Penny's house and '04 Des yakking on the phone? There's no way he would've jerked back and forth that fast and still carry on an intelligible conversation. I think it was just for effect.
→ 198. Posted by: Kate at February 29, 2008 08:05 PM

The scene began with Des walking away from Penny’s house in 1996, and as she looked out at him through her window and closed the curtains, he turned away with a frown. That was the last we saw of him in 1996. Next was the phone call, and the flashing back and forth was just their faces during the conversation, all in 2004. So he wasn’t time-traveling at that point.

*********
A few people said Desmond returned to his 2004 consciousness on the freighter after connecting with Penny. Are we sure that happened? I thought it was ambiguous. Sayid apologized for the battery going dead, Des shook Sayid’s hand and said, “Thank you, Sayid. It was enough.” Sayid asked him if he was alright now, and Des said “Aye. I’m perfect.” But does that mean he has his island memory back?

A few random thank yous... to bcre8ve for the Rousseau-team sickness theory, to JoePike for his thoughts on paradox vs. premonition, to Mister Grimm for a sound explanation of how Daniel got his machine to work without violating the paradox prohibition, and to tedjack for the term “rat-ray.”

And a shout-out to gregg for referring to Lost as gimmicky and lame, for intimating that Mac is silly and for calling the rest of us pseudo-intellectuals. Best laugh I had in a long time :))) Keep it up and you could be famous around here. Although it is hard to compete with Laffo. But you do have the double consonant going for you. And “g” does come after “f”. Or so I was taught at pseudo-intellectual school. So you could be the natural successor. Tell me, how do you feel about “greggo”?

I have a lot of posts to post. To much needs to be addressed. Rather than posting a long ramble I am going to do it in parts. Like an EP record. [at this point I have read 114 posts out of 221. This post has no bearing on future posts, it’s all about MAC

First off about MAC:

I know that you insisted on keeping it brief from now on, but in this recap… I mean, we were given friggin’ quantum physics and you made it seem like arithmetic. I consider myself pretty bright but you made butter out of the whole episode, without even sleeping on it. When we have a Kate episode or worse a Paulikki episode you always still come through, but thank Hanso that when an episode like this comes around. You’re on point.

Usually, because of the reduced format, I can only have a few MACisms. But this one was a review that reminded me of Season 2 MAC reviews, yet in lesser words.

Favorite MACisms:
** “The "Lost" writers are a lot smarter than I am.” – understatement of the decade
** “He's completely freaked out because his brain is processing the world circa 1996 (AOL is still relevant ... scary)”
** “the classic McFlyian logic system”
** “nor is he a robotic River Tam sent to protect a teenaged resistance leader.”
** “brainquilibrium?”
** “at this point I'm close to joining Eloise” – understatement #2 of the decade
** “"island time" is a little different than "off-island time" (somewhere, Jimmy Buffet nods in agreement).”

MAC – you really delivered on this one… spot on and in record time. I really hope you get more gigs bloggin’ or whatever you want to do, thanks for giving us a reason to congregate – not to sound like a cult or anything… though sometimes it seems we are…..

→ 198. Posted by: Kate
I have no idea why finding a constant would make Des stop hopping back and forth from '96 to '04.
→ 221. Posted by: Clementine
Amen to that! Contrived, I say.
-------------
I am not sure they stop hopping if they have a "Constant", either. I think the Constant is just an anchor or reference point when they "snap out of it". A stabilizing factor or familiar, knowing
face they trust and can rely on. Someone who always has a travel pack of tissues in their pocket... for the whole nose thing. And a pocket full of Lab Rat Kibble.

So Penny is Desmonds' Constant. Desmond is Daniel's Constant. Who is (or was) Minkowski's Constant? Maybe he did not have one and that's why he died. Or he had one and was betrayed by him/her... I guess that would make them a Variable instead.

News for Clementine. About 3 hours into reading your latest comment last night, Shirley and I projected ahead 8 years to 2016. We saw I.H. Cusick and you were by his side. You were his Constant. That is the good news. The bad news... He looked like Fisher Steven (Minkowski) in 2008. Worse news... so did you. [ cheers ;^) ]

Amazing episode.

Just throwing this out there and apologise if this has been asked and answered/debated already, but what happened to 2004 Desmond during all of this?

To explain:

On the chopper we saw 2004 Des (who knows Sayid et al) jumped to 1996 thinking it was a dream - Ok, got that bit!

1996 Des then jumps back to 2004 with no knowledge of Sayid et al - Right, so far so good???

But........

Shoudn't there be a 2004 Des who has knowledge of Sayid etc, floating about somewhere in time?

At first I has assumed there were two Desmonds switching places, but after a lot of thought, and excessive nasal blood loos, the only theory I can come up with is that the jump erases your mind and the past concscious takes priority???

Don't get me wrong - I loved this episode, and am in no way finding fault. I just love the discussions it throws up too.

....and what happened to the Delorean?

Amazing episode.

Was it just me or did anyone else expect Michale to show up in this episode?

Just throwing this out there and apologise if this has been asked and answered/debated already, but what happened to 2004 Desmond during all of this?

To explain:

On the chopper we saw 2004 Des (who knows Sayid et al) jumped to 1996 thinking it was a dream - Ok, got that bit!

1996 Des then jumps back to 2004 with no knowledge of Sayid et al - Right, so far so good???

But........

Shoudn't there be a 2004 Des who has knowledge of Sayid etc, floating about somewhere in time?

At first I has assumed there were two Desmonds switching places, but after a lot of thought, and excessive nasal blood loos, the only theory I can come up with is that the jump erases your mind and the past concscious takes priority???

Don't get me wrong - I loved this episode, and am in no way finding fault. I just love the discussions it throws up too.

....and what happened to the Delorean?

I'm a big fan but I have to cry "foul" on this episode. Time travel, which we saw here, is ok in a fiction show. We have had plenty of precedents in other shows and books (Back to the Future plus many others). Audiences can always accept some fantasy even though basic laws of physics are violated as long as the new reality still obeys its owns rules. But this eposode was not mere time travel, it was also separation of mind and body. We've had some of that before too with souls persisting after death. But combined time tarvel and mind-body separation repeatedly? I think they have gone too far. There have to be some limits to a show. I mean, why not suddently introduce cartoon characters running around on the island? That's been accepted in othr shows. These writers have created huge mysteries and sucked us (a very large and dedicated audience)in to learn how they can possibly answer them and explain plausibly how the mysteries can be explained. The explanations have to be satisfying however. The writers don't get to explain the mysteries by creating a whole new physics, or by messing with our core conepts of what causes what. A few exceptions to our understanding of how things work is ok. But there are limits. Characters have to be consistent from episode to episode. Time has to move in one direction. Facts established in one episode have to still be true in a later episode. Now they are telling us that under certain conditions such as exposure to electomagnetic forces, a mind can zip between different times, beween two versions of a body. And some memories make the leap but others do not. I say "foul". That is too much flesxibility. We got sucked in on the premise that the writers would play fair and explain the mysteries while obeying the basic rules. It is like Houdini putting himself in chains, then in a box, then being thrown into water. He has to escape in accordancde with the rules we were led to assume. If it turns out that under water someone could intervene and give him a scuba tank, open the box, and cut the chains, then we are disappointed. Or if the chains were really made out of plastic that he could break. We would call Foul. That is how I feel about this episode. If minds and bodies can be separated and time travel is possible and beings can flit from one time to another time and change the past in ways that change the future, then you can pretty much explain anything. A monster looking like a smoke cloud on the island? Oh, that could be just someone from the future on another planet who develops a nanotechnology involving swarms of molecules (like Crichton) and sends it back to the past on the earth, or whevever. And the wherever might be any place in space or time. Not impressive. It's like the writers paint themselves into a corner and trick us into watching to see how they are going to get out of the corner. And they just take the paint brush and paint a door on the wall, open it and walk out. Disappointed!! If we had known that they could do that, then it would be like painting the whole floor and ending up at a pre-existing door. There is no reason to watch. I'm still going to watch this great series, but with less respect for the writers. I used to think they were brilliant and planned some incredible revelations for us. Now I know they are not above taking the easy way out.

→ 226. Posted by: Chad Brown

Final Season... Final Episode... Final Scene... We've just said good-bye to the last Lostie... Zoom focus on an eye... it opens... slow zoom out... we see someone familiar... zoom out farther... Its' a mental ward... that familiar someone sits-up in bed... its... Hurley's imaginary friend... the only real person we've met yet... he's an INSANELY brilliant scientist... also criminally INSANE... has mommy/issues... etc... he looks at his calendar... its' 23 Sep 2004... six years of LOST... all a dream of this one "patient" - in one night.

Feel better?

[ Of course if I am correct, then I am sure the producers will have already changed their names and fled the country. ]

re:→ 228. Posted by: mac
And let's not forget something here: it's a friggin tv show ... set on a mystery island ... with a smoke monster and others and time bubbles and whatnot.
OF COURSE IT'S SILLY
========
Nice course correction there mac (Lapidus?). You got the helo back to wings level without havng to jettison the dead-weight.

re: mac-ism "I'm going to be eating an awful lot of crow this season."

I don't think you'll get even a fork full of crow to sample... when you keep dishing it out like its' holiday turkey.

[ bravo... {golf clap} ]

well, this is a great episode, I could see how jacob is hte captain of the black rock, and i am sure that the others, for example richard alpert, are the members of that ship, probably had make a riot to their captain, or are the explanation of why is the ship in the middle of the island!

Ouchers...

A bit of y'olde hangover today (or maybe I was just time jumping, and this is a side effect?)...

Maybe I'm just grumpy, but...

@ 226. Posted by: Chad Brown
Paragraphs are your friend - use them. I love reading long posts, but I was just plain intimidated by the huge block of text.

@ 231. Posted by: tomas
It felt like you were yelling at me with your post (use of capitals)...

re: Rousseau peeps sickness

Just wanted to mention, whoever reminded us of Rousseau's people's sickness, that this seems very plausible. Another flip of the coin could be that Rousseau herself was the one who was affected by a time distortion, and this caused her to go kooky and kill everyone. Can't wait to see how this plays out...

re: Time travel

I actually am intrigued with the way they are using time travel (as a mental experience). They want us to believe that while it is possible, there are all sorts of dangers and possible side effects to the brain.

I liked it that Desmond was not in control, and was pretty much struggling to survive the experience. If the show hits a point where people can casually control the time travel (ie think of a date and time and then poof, re-live it), then it will be uber cheese.

Last thought - anyone out there familiar with freighters? Was there not two landing circles on the freighter? Would the 2nd one serve as an alternate landing point, or is it a spot for a second helicopter?

Didn't seem like there would be enough room for a 2nd chopper, especially since the tail of the one we saw already had to hang over the edge of the freighter.

→ 232. Posted by: shikotee
anyone out there familiar with freighters? Was there not two landing circles on the freighter? Would the 2nd one serve as an alternate landing point, or is it a spot for a second helicopter?

Didn't seem like there would be enough room for a 2nd chopper, especially since the tail of the one we saw already had to hang over the edge of the freighter.
________________
I am familiar. Yes there were two helipads. Yes they were awfully close together, even for the smallish Huey. The vessel was more of a close-in (Hawaii) fishing or short-haul freight boat, not a deep sea, trans-Pacific explorer. The two spots are probably for this helo and the one they lost with Naomi. If I were operating these helos, I'd have the helo that parks amidship (front spot) park facing aft. So the two were nose-to-nose. Not much draft between the overhanging tail and the surf though on the aft helo. Nowhere near enough clearance for open ocean ops.
I Guess they couldn't afford the big freighter at Bad Robot / ABC / Disney for a one hour drama that only draws 15 million viewers/week in the U.S.

I posted above my dislike of the "cheap tricks" of using time travel/mind-body separation as story-telling devices because it is too easy to explain any mystery that way. (Only easier device is to claim after the fact it was all a dream (TY "Dallas"))

Then I thought of another idea: there is the context that the Island has something to do with a 1960s UN-sponsored effort to save humanity from self-destruction. If you are tasked with saving mankind, why wouldn't you try to learn how to travel back in time to fix whatever might cause mankind to destroy itself? Now that would make it ok to use time travel in my book.

But I still have a problem with the mind-body separation.

Now - this ep brought to mind Desmond's early Lost quote of 'see you in another life, brutha'. Did he know back then? Any thoughts on this?

If Jacob was indeed the captain of the Black Rock, perhaps he, in some form, is the captain of the freighter as well, and Ben's "man on the boat?"

@211
gregg = Al Gore

long time reader, but hardly ever post anything as i usually doesn't have anything to offer on top of what is already been posted here by the great fans!

great episode. probably one of the best i have ever seen! took me couple of days to digest it.

1. one observation which I didn't see here, pardon me if this is already posted here. According to island time, it is 96 days since the crash which makes it Dec 26, 2004 in island, but on the freighter it is two days before: dec 24, 2004.

2. the phone call to Penny to come back to original state reminded me of Matrix!

3. I think this is already discussed here: Minkowski is not disoriented in current time after his flashtime experiences. Desmond did have time travel at the beginning of season 3 and when he was back he wasn't disoriented and continued having future flashes without having any side effects. If thats the case, why should Minkowski suffer the side effects and die?

4. If I remember correctly, 305 was the bearing on Frank's paper and 3:05 was the inscription on Eko's Jesus stick. But Ben gave Michael the bearing of 325! So is he safe or he still traveling in the snow globe?

5. was the card memory test conducted by Faraday was a test of time travel, just like the maze test he did with the rat?

6. what happened to the church Eko was building?

7. Where is Desmond's yatch? if the losties gets the bearing from Faraday (or Jesus Stick) and the yatch from Ben, they should be able to get out.

I can't thank Mac enough! u da man!

3. I think this is already discussed here: Minkowski is not disoriented in current time after his flashtime experiences. Desmond did have time travel at the beginning of season 3 and when he was back he wasn't disoriented and continued having future flashes without having any side effects. If thats the case, why should Minkowski suffer the side effects and die?
→ 238. Posted by: aj at March 1, 2008 02:36 PM

My guess is that Des's time-traveling experiences & his Desmonitions are two different things—he's not actually time-traveling & seeing the things that happen (or could happen) in his Desmonitions, but his consciousness actually did time-travel in this episode. Or another way to put it could be that he can have a Desmonition w/o actually time-traveling.

@Clementine #221: Great post! But you & lovelost will have to figure out a way to share the Des-man w/me too. ; )

Alright, so I didn't read everyone's posts yet because I just took my LSATs this morning and that's all I've been doing for the last few days.

Anyway... I'll write again after I read everytihng, but for now I have to say...

At first I felt like it was a filler episode a little bit because really all I wanted to know was about the Oceanic 6. But then I realized the episode was AMAZING.

Once they showed the "Black Rock" in the auction that Desmond went to to find Charles Widmore, I was like, "WOAH"

But anyway, that episode had a whole lot in it and I plan on adding to past comments.

First-time poster.
Kudos to PiecesofArtz #32 for his insight that the Oceanic 6 would be those Losties who were on the other side of the island during the hatch implosion. I think they are Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun and Jin. Not Sawyer, because he doesn't want to leave anymore. Even though Aaron was on the beach with Claire, he might be immune to the effects of leaving the island because his consciousness isn't developed, and he has no past to visit. Somehow, the losties will realize who can leave safely, and Claire will give up Aaron so he can have a better life off the island. I'm with those who think he wouldn't be counted as one of the six.

I've been thinking about the idea of consciousness being separate from physical being and that the island itself seems to have its own consciousness. I was also thinking about all the pre-815 interconnections we have seen among characters in flashbacks. This may have been posted before, but my theory is that there is something that can pass from one consciousness to another in a virus-like manner. It could have been carried off the island by Ben or Richard Alpert on their excursions. It could then have been passed through that huge network of individuals that are shown to be tied together in the flashbacks. Once "infected", select individuals are brought to the island through some scheme devised by the consciousness of the island. (Smokey may be the physical manifestation of island consciousness.) If the island wants an "infected" person to stay, he will suffer as Jack does, until he finds a way to return.

GRAA Mac!

Wow, this episode was totally mind boggling and heart warming at the same time. A big yay to the Desmond/Penny love story. Their final scene (telephone conversation) brought tears to _my_ eyes too, 1st and 2nd viewing.

I must heavily disagree with you Kate (#198) on Penny not being beautiful. Are you kidding me? You are, right? Because Penny is absolutely gorgeous *sigh* and is a great and kind person as well *sigh*.

Anyways, I live in the Netherlands and after I've downloaded and watched the show, there usually are more than 125 _great_ blog responses by you guys already. So most of the time, all of my thoughts about the episode have already been written down here. That's the main reason why *I* lurk :-).

Right now I still have a question, though. I am wondering this: couldn't it be that when 1996 Des ended up in the head of 2004 Des during the helicopter flight, at the same time 2004 Des ended up in the head of 1996 Des. Only, because 2004 Des already lived through his past, it wasn't scary and more like a flashback (memories) of "the old days". However, the 1996 Des hadn't experienced the future, and was freaked out 'bout being in this new place/body.

What I'm trying to say is: this episode focuses on the 1996 Des, who's mind travels to the future / a parallel reality / wherever ... and then back to its own body. Does ANYONE know what happens to the mind of 2004 Des? Is it in suspension? Where does it go? The episode doesn't reveal much information about this (or else I'm missed this information) and it might be an interesting question, me thinks.

Also, maybe 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42 are the number of years a mind can "jump". Maybe this is because of how the universe and thus alternate realities / parallel time frames 'bend' and these numbers are the knots where different realities cross???? And these knots being the reason it is possible to jump to a parallel reality?

Post number 2 of many more to come:

In regards to the supposed paradox of Desmond (better known as the chicken and the egg argument)

I think in 1996 Daniel Faraday was hanging a picture over his toilet and slipped, when he fell he hit his head on the porcelain and came up with the variables. But he hadn’t tried them out yet. And this kid, Marty McFly… I mean Desmond Hume, comes up to him saying he’s from the future and mentions the flux capacitor.. er… I mean the variables and this validates the professor’s theory that these variables will work [so the cognition of the solution had already been contrived] and that indeed Marty must get his parents to kiss at the ‘under the sea dance’ or else he will die… I mean Desomond must connect with his lover or he’ll die. Funny how in Robert Zemekis’ BackTotheFuture, they never address the concept that if Doc in 1985 now knows Marty from 1955 because Marty worked with him back then, does that change how Doc sees Marty? Where’s a Delorean when you need one?

re:→ 238. Posted by: aj
4. If I remember correctly, 305 was the bearing on Frank's paper and 3:05 was the inscription on Eko's Jesus stick. But Ben gave Michael the bearing of 325! So is he safe or he still traveling in the snow globe?
________________
I'll take a stab at this one. MAYBE the bearing that Michael (325) rcvd and the one Frank (305) rcvd are both correct. The effort here appears to be to exit through the same "window" just 40 miles NW of the island.

Say the window is exactly 315 degrees heading from the CENTER of the island.
If Michael was leaving from the SOUTH end of the island, then 325 may be the precise heading needed. Same for FRANK, 305 from the NORTH end of the island to "bullseye" the window.

After some quick math, at 40 NM and 10 degree dev. When (if) Michael was 40 NM from the window, Frank would have been about 15 miles to his right.

****SPOILERS****

The rat's death proves that the future can be changed, of course. either that or the universe can be changed.

When the light was shined on Eloise, then she was allowed to run the maze, she had learned the maze... somewhere... at some time.. yet before being given a chance to learn it here, in this universe, she died. so what happened to the her that learned the maze? where is that her now? obviously, a dead rat can't learn the maze, and she had to get that information from somewhere.

In slaughterhouse 5, Billy Pilgrim ("will travel" if you like the pun) has become disjointed from time and has more skill than any of the characters in lost. for example he watches carpet bombing on tv in vietnam in reverse in one scene.

In the book "thrice upon a time," we deal with the ramifications of sending messages backwards through time. each message sent creates a new universe, because sending the message is optional in the universe in which it is received.

i'm surprised you didn't understand desmond's whole time problem, that started when he turned the key, and hit the reset button. i suggest you watch that episode again. note the purple light.

#136...writes:OK, Charlie's last message to Des was "Not Penny's Boat" because Penny had said "what boat?" or something like that, convincing Charlie and us that she knew nothing about the freighter. Well then, why has Penny been calling the freighter?

THAT IS AN AWESOME CATCH! How in the world are the writers going to 'splain that one?? I hope their 'vacation' gave them some time to ponder that paradox!

@246

Most definitely, there will be more backstory regarding why Penny has been looking for Desmond. I imagine most of us suspect that once we find out how her father is connected (might be behind the freighter), Penny will likely discover info about Desmond/the isle from her father somehow...

@245

Desmond is unconscious for 75 minutes or so, and then sees that the Rat is dead. I think we are meant to believe that Faraday was training the rat during the time that Desmond was unconscious.

The Widmores are extremly wealtly. Is it possible that Penny's comment of "what boat" reffered to Penny asking which particular boat? If she has been searching for Des for 3 years, maybe she has contact with numerous seagoing vessels in hope that one of them has news of desmonds whereabouts. Is it possible she what trying to ask Charlie which boat he was talking about?

Thanks again for the great review Mac!

For those who have been wondering about what Penny said to Charlie in light of what we learned in this episode...

Perhaps the reason that Penny said "What Boat?" even though she has been calling the boat repeatedly is that she does not realize that it is a boat she is calling.

Maybe she is calling a number that she believes is somehow connected to or associated with the island and does not realize it is in fact a boat.

Also on a completely different topic...

I had one comment from a few episodes back that I never got around to posting. I think that the mysterious grey substance surrounding Jacob's cabin looks remarkably like kitty litter.

re: Penny Transmissions

I assumed that she was focusing on that area based on the info from the arctic team when the hatch blew. She is sending messages, but is trying to get in touch with the island. She is not aware of the freighter.

If her dad turns out to be the man behind the freighter, it would explain why they were ordered not to respond to any of her transmissions. I'm sure Papa Widmore is not to pleased that his daughter is searching for Desmond...

In regards to if Lost next episode will reference Christmas, I think it'd be pretty hilarious if they did.

From the preview we can see that Dan/Charlotte are trying to do something devious and Juliette is going to stop them.
I'd love for someone to come into the middle of that and say 'Hey, you guys, we're doing a Secret Santa down at the beach. And c'mon, put away that gun - it's Christmas!'

And Locke can wear the Santa hat.

@249 Christine

Kittle litter
If I remember correctly in the very first picture of Jacob he had a cat on his shoulder ! That explains everything the time worp thingy it's solved!
I would love to have seen John bend over and pick up the "ash" and find a cat turd in it !

Not sure anyone will read this this far down on the post ladder, but here goes...

@118/Nurse M

Yes, but the point was the "course correction" was going to kill Charlie eventually, no matter how many times Desmond intervened, he was only postponing the inevitable.

@149/ealgumby

I'm Gumby, damn it. Seriously though, Dan appears to have had a nervous breakdown since 1996...possibly caused by his experiments. Give the writers a chance.

@168/Gail

Penny sees Des again after 1996, she tracks him down (in Los Angeles?) before he starts the around the world yacht race. She's been looking for him since his boat went missing.

@238/aj

This is the one thing that bothers me about this episode...Des in 2004 has no memories after 1996, yet George Minkowsky, who is also time travelling, seems to remember everything, like they aren't taking Penny's calls and how the comms room got destroyed. Granted, he could ahve been backfilled in on things after the jumping started, but he didn't appear to have the same memory gap our brother was dealing with.

Hey all, interesting episode and great comments so far. I just watched it again and picked up a few more thoughts about the points being debated.

-------------------------
Island Time…

Consider these points:

--Daniel said, talking with the Jack and pals on the beach-- “Your perception of how long your friends been gone-- its not necessarily how long they’ve actually been gone.”
-- It’s Dec 24, 2004 on the ship, and approximately the same on the island
-- Radio communication with off-islanders has always been instantaneous
-- The rocket experiment- the trip takes longer than expected
-- The helicopter trip- took off at dusk, and a short ride later, through a thunderstorm, arrived at midday. This seems to agree with the experience on the beach.

It could be that island time is not necessarily different than the rest of the world time—the time shift happens in the travel to and from the island. Once you are on or off of it, you are back on the “same” time. For example, the helicopter took off at dusk. For the riders, the trip length seemed as expected, but for both those on the beach and the sun in the sky, it took 14 hours or so.
------------------------------------

Why 1996?

176@constant-pation asks…
“can anyone explain what the signification of that point in time is for Desmond, i.e. 1996? Why would he go back to that point in time?”

Jack asks Daniel why Des thinks he is in 1996. Daniel answers:
“I don’t know. It’s unpredictable -- it’s a random effect. Sometimes the displacement is only a couple of hours, sometimes years”
-------

Changing the future:

When Des visits Daniel in his Oxford office they have this conversation:

Dan- “I referenced this meeting, right? So, I’m going to remember you coming to Oxford, right? I’m going to remember this here right now?”
Des- “Actually- umm no”
Dan- “No?”
Des - “Maybe you just forgot”
Dan-“Yeah right, how would that happen?”
Des -“So this is changing the future?”
Dan - “You can’t change the future…”

It certainly did not seem like Daniel remembered meeting with Des when they were talking on the sat phone. And later, in at the end of the show, Daniel is looking through his logbook, and finds the note he wrote to himself, about Des being his constant. He looks surprised, like he is just seeing it for the first time.

To me it looks like his “you can’t change the future” statement had been wrong. You can change the future, at least in the details. We have already seen that with Des’s flash-forwards about the way Charlie dies. He changed the details of the future event many times, although not the ultimate outcome. Here, it looks like Des did change the future by what he did, at least in some detail.
----------

The “Constant”.

After watching this a 2nd time through, this idea of a constant was just plain cheese. I think it was just a plot devise to build suspense about whether Des would live or not. Why couldn’t Faraday be his constant? I think this was a one-episode issue and we will not hear any more about it.

i have to say tht this episode will be one of the finest tht these guys fulled off.. my fav ws the s3 finale but this one really got me sit up straight!!! remember last time des travelled thru time, but then he didnt forget antthing of the island..this time he forgot..and also i think he got back his memory as he called sayid by his name in the end..and ya the phonecall ws sooo touchy..penny will find des thts for sure..n the others will find the islanders!!!
also we know tht 6 ppl were rescued and jack said tht only 8 survived in his courtroom account, so maybe jack n others(oceanic6) have been warned not to speak of the island thts y he lied about no of ppl alive on the island...and yeah the black rock ws mentioned and mr widmore is no saint..he ws behaving as he knew exactly what des is undergoing..and he has a VERY high hand in this dharma business...and mac good writing as always...cant wait for next week...

Amazing episode, BUUUUT... Wouldn't Daniel be Desmond's constant? Des talked to Dan in 1996 and 2004.
Also, maybe Dan is already in one of the island time twister thingys... he has been exposed to lots of nuclear stuff (experimenting with Eloise,) then he entered the island area it would have kicked in... if not when/if he leaves the island it will.

one thing i just realize..ppl r saying about des n dan going round n round abt tht numbers n oscillations, y dont u think it this way, maybe dan v.2004 KNEW des(whichever version) and he sent him to c his(dan's) v.1996 so tht desmond will be his(dan's) constant in the future....hope i have driven my point correctly as i am confused2...

I think Penny said, "What boat?" because she didn't know about it yet. The, after talking to Charlie from the future, she began searching, found the boat, and began calling it. The future altered the past. Same thing when Faraday was crying when he saw the plane. he didn't know why it was bothering him so much. He also didn't know Desmond yet. But, the future events altered the past. Kind of alternate timelines. The writing in the book appeared after he talked to Desmond, and after Des found him in the past.

Several people have wondered why Daniel wouldn't be Desmond's constant. According to Daniel, your constant has to be something you care deeply about. Des cares deeply about Penney but has no reason to make Daniel his constant. For Daniel, Des was his constant because of the huge impact he had on his research.

It would also appear that memory loss is a side effect of time travel. It may be a gradual thing. Daniel forgot about Des's visit and the Desmond entry in his journal, and it didn't mean anything to him for many years. Telling Des about the constant reminded him that he had the entry, and that's when he went looking for it. I think the scene with Charlotte and the cards was about testing his actual memory, not "future memory", as some have suggested.

Hey y'all it's been a while since I have been on here but I was watching Old School for the second time since it first came out on DVD, and I saw that the guy playing Luke Wilson's boss was none other than Mr. John Locke.

→ 174. Posted by: Lauren N.
"I find it interesting that 1996 Desmond is the part of his consciousness that is time traveling...wouldn't it make more sense for that Desmond circa 2004 to leap through time, back to 1996?"

Excellent post, and great point. They had to do it the way they did so that 2004 Des could lose his memory and have it restored by finding (the very beautiful) Penny as his constant. But I like the way you think!

→ 183. Posted by: welh
"We all assumed at the beginning of Lost that the characters were on Flight 815, that the plane crashed on a real island, that the survivors were having real experiences. What if that assumption is totally wrong."

Another good post. I think that's the whole point of the show- to challenge most of our initial assumptions and perceptions of what is going on. And as the show moves forward, we're seeing just how wrong we all were when we started watching. That's the beauty of how this story is unfolding.

→ 198. Posted by: Kate
So... we finally learned why Des was kicked out of the army. I love it when little holes like that are filled in.

Did we? Nothing was shown for sure. We're just assuming it was because he went AWOL or something, but we don't really know yet.

→ 226. Posted by: Chad Brown
...But combined time travel and mind-body separation repeatedly? I think they have gone too far. There have to be some limits to a show.

That's funny...I thought the mind-body separation idea was a pretty sweet and original way to do the time-travel thing. That way, who's to say whether the "time travel" was real and actually happened or not? Maybe it's just amnesia combined with some lucid dreaming from vivid memories of important parts of your past. That would explain why the 'future can't be changed'.

And while I respect your opinion, I disagree that there have to be limits to a show. One reason I love Lost is because they are constantly breaking the so called rules and going beyond the 'limits'. You never know what's coming next. There are plenty of other formulaic shows I watch that usually follow the rules too much.

I give Lost plenty of leeway since it's so entertaining. Usually any 'jump the shark' moments or episodes eventually come full circle as they are proven to have revealed major mythology or propelled the story forward.

I've been reading this blog (love it!)for a while, including the comments, but I have to mention a couple of things. First, what's with all the posts saying "sorry if this has already been mentioned, I didn't have time to read all the posts"?? Why do the rest of us have to read all these repeat ideas if you don't bother reading ours? We have lives too! Second, I'm a little annoyed that clementine credited Mister Grimm when I explained pretty much the same thing first. But I admit I was already annoyed at having to read, over and over again, "did anyone notice that Ben said 325 but the helicopter used 305?" ARGH!! (Sorry for the negative post)

@Chad Brown

By any chance the former NFL umpire? If so, we know each other.

@Lost in Baltimore

Hope you also watch "The Wire".

@everyone

About the freighter. It had two helipads, but they were much too close together for safe operations.

"Why does father Widmore leave the water on in the bathroom??"
→ 206. Posted by: meg

I wondered about that too. When Desmond wakes up - the bathroom is empty and the water is overflowing, I think papa Widmore used Cindy's Scarf to dry his hands and then threw her in the sink to clog the drain. Papa Widmore is actually trying to help Desmond.

Also, the episode starts without "PREVIOUSLY ON LOST". I think that has happened before, anybody remember which episodes?

Odd that no one has made mention of parallel universes (as opposed to parallel realities.) My take on the episode is based on the idea, sometimes raised by otherwise serious minded scientists, that there is not one universe but a continuous manifold of parallel universes where some are close at hand, some are quite "distant." Nearby universes would be nearly identical to ours in time and space and would be slowly diverging from our own. Since the manifold is continuous, there is always a universe closer and, in fact, an infinite number of them. For some reason (science fiction does not have to be based on real science, only on something that sounds like real science) our island is like a portal connecting one or several nearby universes. Desmond is not time travelling, his mind force is travelling between two different parallel universes popping into and out of parallel Desmond physical bodies. With the idea of parallel universes, perhaps in the universe where the losties end up after leaving the island is one in which Oceanic 815 actually did crash near Indonesia.

It is interesting but not surprising that Widmore is interested in the Black Rock's log. It contains clues to where the island is located. At least two powerful forces are out to exploit this island and its properties (the one Ben is working for and the one Ben is sending Sayid to kill off one at a time.)

Someone with a better memory might remember where Desmond met Penny. Wasn't it while he was in the army loading or unloading trucks? Wasn't Widmore friendlier to Desmond this time around? Did Desmond go AWOL while being spooked by his parallel universe self, thus leading to his dishonorable discharge? Is that why Widmore was so cold to him? Has Widmore done any parallel universe travelling? Was in 1996 trying to buy the Black Rock Log before his rivals stumbled across it? And he knew it? And he somehow needed Desmond's help? Time travel / parallel universe tripping generally raises paradoxes that we just have to live with.

Somewhere in a parallel universe my nose is bleeding Jacob dust that I can't see for another 31 minutes.

Random Comment #1 - Cat Scratch Fever:

@ Christine #249 – "I think that the mysterious grey substance surrounding Jacob's cabin looks remarkably like kitty litter."

Well that guy DOES seem to have 9 lives...

Random Comment #2 – When Dessy Met Penny:

@ August Paul #265 – Didn't Des meet Penny when she was stockpiling monk beer for Daddy's Dharma kegger?

Random Comment #3 – Key Players:

Farraday seems to have emerged out of the blue as this season's Ben, but I still think Ben is way higher on the Dharma Pole than Farraday. But otherwise, from a strictly plot mystery perspective, who is on whose side? There's Charles Widmore, Penny Widmore and Ben as the three key movers and shakers, possibly also Christian Shephard. So who's working with whom? Penny's got her North Pole station and if Daddy-O turns out to be the man behind the freighter and is blocking Penny's access, whose side is Ben on? And where does Jack's daddy fit in?

Random Lunacy:
tsop siht etirw i sa emit ni sdrawkcab gnilevart m’i ekil sleef ti tsol os m’i
(read backwards)

Finally:
Juliet-centric episode coming: it's about time (pun unintended)

Well, then you should be able to see it any minute now...

>>>Second, I'm a little annoyed that clementine credited Mister Grimm when I explained pretty much the same thing first.
→ 262. Posted by: Lost in Baltimore at March 2, 2008 12:02 PM

No offense intended, LIB. I guess sometimes certain comments make a connection for certain people, while others have already laid the groundwork (or said the exact same thing, in a different way).

You’re in good company, because I’ve had that same experience many times, and I’m sure most other posters would sympathize, also.

synergy: 'the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects' (e.g., Mac’s Lost Blog).

The whole is definitely greater than the sum of the parts around here :)

Glad you spoke up, though! Now I know your name and will be looking for your comments. And I promise I read each and every comment here (except Spoilers), as do quite a few other people. Mac’s blog has quite the following, so your thoughts will never go unnoticed!

@Alaïs_Longthought: I don’t know why Daniel is wasting his smarts on time-travel, when he should be cloning Desmond. The world could only benefit from a “Hot Scots Replicator.”

@FenwayBen: Your post was too far down. I didn’t read it. :)

@DocH: I can assure you, I look nothing like Fisher Stevens (that Bug-Eyed wannabe). Better twist Shirley around a little... she might get better reception, or projection, or whatever.

@SamFin and Christine: I think Locke should find catbarf in the kitty litter. I mean literally, the poster catbarf... in the kitty litter. Ha! I’m pretty sure I only amused myself with that one.

If catbarf is reading, may I ask, why are you simply “catbarf” this season? If I remember correctly, last year you would add random suffixes like “Catbarf the 3rd” or “Catbarf the 8th”? These are the things I wonder about when I can’t process the episode anymore.

@callaway76: “I think papa Widmore used Cindy's Scarf to dry his hands and then threw her in the sink to clog the drain.” Oh, the carnage! If I were Cindy’s Scarf, I would have leapt from the sink to passionately wrap myself around Desmond’s neck as he turned off the water. (Somehow fictional television character crushes are funnier when Meg does them. I better stick to my usual schtick.)

@Clementine Yet To Be (June 2008 Version) - Reminder to nominate for Lost Lines contest:

>>>Somewhere in a parallel universe my nose is bleeding Jacob dust that I can't see for another 31 minutes.
→ 266. Posted by: DW at March 2, 2008 03:05 PM

@Clementine #270: Well, you amused me, anyway...a Hot Scots Replicator! Good one!

re: the flight to the freighter.
I firmly believe that Frank was EXACTLY on course. To leave the island anomaly… he had to precisely fly through a specific window. If you look at his note from Daniel, it says 40 Miles N (I assume that to mean 40 nautical miles) @ 305 degrees. Then it says the freighter is 6 K (kilometers) to the East. There was even a litle diagram depicting that exact thing. We saw Frank fly that course, he said he had to wait a bit longer, while Desmond had his fit and Sayid aided. Then we saw Frank make a descending right turn (East) and then we saw the freighter just over 6 km later.
I think Des had a reaction to flying thru the “window” because he is simply hypersensitive to the phenomena, because of his time in the hatch, etc…. I think his time in the Royal Army (events we have yet to see yet) probably had him as some sort of “lab rat” in an elaborate experiment working on electro-magnetics, military camouflage, etc…. (ala “The Philidelphia Experiment” - read the theory at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadel...)
Daniel may have had a similar “disorienting” event on his way to the island, because of his repeated exposure in his life. Remember how goofy he was for the first few days after he arrived.
Part of Dharma was serious about hiding the island - like the Philidelphia Experiment. (according to Shirley).

FINALLY! I just got home and watched this weeks - actually last weeks - episode. Now I need to start reading all the blog entries, but before I do -

THIS WAS A WONDERFUL EPISODE. Maybe one of the best ever! That phone call - I don't think we've ever had that HAPPY of a moment in this whole series. I wanted to jump up and cheer.

I know it's only the "beginning" of the end, but what a marvelous piece of storytelling! I only have 24 hours at home, so not sure I'll write again - or have time to -

Back in a week or so.

Blessings All.

DRH

Long time Blog reader...first time posting. Great episode!! Just watched it today, so am behind. Anyone notice the message from the past noting Dan's Constant is Des was written in red? That would seem to me that it was written at a later time than the notes in the black journal book.

@callaway76 lol, I am hoding you personally responsible for the wine tha just came out my nose!! I LOVE the people on this blog! (referring to post 264)

@clementine (#270) anything you do or write is #1 with me (as long as you know I am first)

For those who think that the writers are getting too weird. I was reading from Scientific American "origins of the Universe" and this is one of the comments.

Multiple universes are continually being born and according to some cosmologists. Each universe is an expanding bubble branching off from its "parent" universe. With shifts in the "laws of Physics from one universe to another.

So it seems if something can't happen in one universe it could happen in another.

And how do we know which universe the Island abides by.

And we all know the Red...Neck...Man has his own universe with its own laws. I mean in his universe scarves are actually people with dreams and ambitions and everything.

Finally got through all the posts (I think I may need one of those little injections the doc was giving George....)

Anyway, I just thought of something so obvious I must be wrong (relates also to an earlier post that differentiated "dreams" and "memories")

I'm wondering if we're not all mistaken when referring to what happened to Des as "time travel". His brain is clearly bouncing from one place to another (from the present to the past) but is he really going anywhere...

Seems like it when we saw Dan's note to himself concerning Desmon (written in red!) but I just don't know.

The helicopter ride necessarily triggered the "side-effect" Dan was referring to, but this reminds me more of a Matrix-like problem with the brain than actuel time travel.

One must remeber that when he jumped back to 1996 starting then, that was all he knew. He remembered nothing in between. Not only the island. Nothing else.

Seems to suggest that it's like if he were suffering from temporary amnesia. It's like if he was able to "explore" things he never new of but that were happening at the same time in 1996.

For example, I'm writing this post write now, March 2nd 2008. Let's say 2 years from now I go through the same thing Des did and while I'm back, I go knock on my neighbor's door. That knock never took place before but what my neighbor was doing hasn't changed, I'm just gaining knowledge of it (hold on a sec, I've got to stuff some cotton balls in my nose....)

Anyway, that's what I love about this show...right or wrong, it makes us think!

P.S. @ Clementine: Ok I"ll go back to the old handle but it reflects a promotion I got on Friday

@Deputy Chief Prosecutor67: Congratulations!!

I watched the episode again and have a few more comments:

•When the sergeant is shouting at Des in 1996, he refers to him as Private. When Des was released from prison and discharged from the army, I think he was a Lance Corporal. Some evidence that Des didn’t go to jail after being AWOL or “crazy” in this episode? There’s more to the story. And I bet it involves the soldier that knocked the coins out of Desmond’s hand.

•In the sick bay, when the freighter dudes find out Des was talking to Daniel on the phone, Frank yells, “He said he could help!” and Ray the creepy Doc replies, “Faraday can’t even help himself.” Other than the obvious reference to Daniel’s flightiness, I think they may be talking about his memory problems.

•If Minkowski was under strict orders to never answer incoming calls from Penelope, how does he know to refer to her as Desmond’s “girlfriend” or that she was looking for Des?

•Maybe Papa Widmore left the water running because the sound can trigger the time jumps, same with the flashlight that Ray the freighter Doc used.

•I prefer Desmond clean-shaven, because he has the cutest dimples.

•In “Flashes Before Your Eyes,” why was Desmond naked when he came back from his time jump? Are we supposed to believe the hatch implosion blew the clothes right off him? At the time, we thought it was a side-effect of time travel, but now we know it’s just the consciousness that travels, not the body. I need to watch that episode again.

@ Clementine #278: Re •If Minkowski was under strict orders to never answer incoming calls from Penelope, how does he know to refer to her as Desmond’s “girlfriend” or that she was looking for Des?

Perhaps Minkowski's been told by his superiors who Penelope is? Especially if the shark at the top of the chain is Charles Widmore...

•In “Flashes Before Your Eyes,” why was Desmond naked when he came back from his time jump? Are we supposed to believe the hatch implosion blew the clothes right off him? At the time, we thought it was a side-effect of time travel, but now we know it’s just the consciousness that travels, not the body.

I forget whether this was mentioned already here or just over in the Forums, but in The Time Traveler's Wife, the protagonist always arrives naked after one of his "trips." Perhaps Des actually time-traveled, both body & consciousness, after the hatch implosion due to being so close to the electro-magnetism?

•I prefer Desmond clean-shaven, because he has the cutest dimples.

We're going to have to get that Hot Scots Replicator going...there's yet another Des-lover over in the Forums who wants a piece of Scotland!

@ Clementine and others who raise questions regarding Penny calling the boat and how Minkowski knows what he knows about her if he never answered... I may be totally off here, but you don't "Call" a boat like you call a friend's house, right? It's not as if Penny dialed up the boat and no one answered the ringing phone, I would think that Penny sent out a call, a recorded message on a frequency that is picked up by the boat, and 'not answering' means Not Replying. The messge she sends could say "I am Penny Widmore, I am looking for my boyfriend Desmond Hume who was shipwrecked on an uncharted island in the South Pacific... etc etc"
Does this explain, or an I totally off?

Re: Penny and the boat. I'm still stuck on this one, cuz she said to Charlie: What boat? I previously said I think there's more than one boat out there. And Minkowski specifically said she's been calling the boat...he didn't say we've been intercepting calls from her. AND, when talking to Des in that oh-so-sweet phone call, she says: I know about the boat. Like Meg pointed out, did Charlie's comment prompt her to search for a boat? Seems remote that she'd find it, unless she knew Daddy was up to something. Or does she think it's Desmond's sailboat? Nah.

My darling Clementine, don't get greedy. There's enough of Des for both of us. (Alais, we're not sharing!)

Oh, and someone also thought that Des did not utter "brutha" once in this ep. In fact, I believe he mumbled it 3 times: twice in the Sick Bay (once to Sayid, once to Minkowski) and once again to Sayid in the Communications Room.

Clementine: serioiusly, thank you for bringing some needed comic relief this Monday morning. Your posts are right up there with DocH, Cecil, Crispy, RNM, Meg, and the other frequent, thought-provoking posters here.

To all you grumblies: This is the best ride ever. I've often said that anticipation is sometimes greater than the actual event. So let's all just enjoy the journey.

Finally, Mac is my constant.

Hey Mac,

Just have to say once again what a great recap on a phenomenal episode.

Thanks for all the hard work you do – your fans appreciate it.

I want to put forth some thoughts that have been nagging at me for some time and that “The Constant” finally convinced me might have some merit.

So here goes:

The writers and creators of the show are huge Stephen King fans. They’ve inserted SK references throughout the series since the first season. I always had two stories come to mind when watching Lost and they both had to do with 2 SK short stories: “The Langoliers” and “The Jaunt”. If you’re not familiar with either one do yourself a favor and read them – they are extremely well written and entertaining stories.

The Langoliers is the story of a flight that slips through a naturally occurring portal in time and the surviving passengers find themselves out of phase with normal time – they eventually find out that they have jumped slightly into the past. The similarity to Lost is what happened to those that were conscious when the flight passed through the portal in the Langoliers. Anyone that was awake during the flight vanished, only the passengers that were asleep were able to pass through the portal and emerge safely on the other side. I’ll make the connection to Lost in after I describe “The Jaunt”.

The Jaunt is the story of a man and his family about to travel to Mars through two portals, to pass the time away before the trip the man tells his family the history of the “Jaunt” portals and how they were invented. During the development of the portals it was discovered that you could only travel through them while asleep, anyone that went through awake would emerge on the other side and die instantly of a massive heart attack or they would go completely and utterly insane and then die. The father recounts the last statement of one person that had gone through the portals awake and that before dying had said, “It’s eternity in there”. I don’t want to ruin the ending for anyone interested in reading the story, suffice to say that both of the above SK stories tie into Lost in the following way – Travel to the island seems to have some interesting side affects. Juliet had to travel to the island unconsciously; anyone else that traveled to the island conscious was subjected to extremely violent conditions.

“The Constant” with the theme of time travel and differences in time between “on island” and “off island” events got me thinking about those two stories again. Could the island be located through a naturally occuring "portal"? Could the island possibly exist somewhere out of phase with our own reality?

Any thoughts?

Apologies for the super long post.

Just thought I'd let everyone know that I recently re-watched a sweet scene from the movie 'Gia'....ya, you know what's up!!! If you think Juliette is cool, then take a gander.

So...

I started to watch the show from the beginning. Do this date, I have never re-watched the show. I'm curious to see how it will stand up based on the information that we presently have.

For anyone that has the time, I highly recommend it. Now that I am familiar with the characters/events, it is interesting to see how things develop.

I just watched "Raised by Another", which is the first Claire flashback involving the fortune teller. We also find out that creepy Ethan Rom was not a 815 passenger.

Claire has a dream in this episode, where she is on the island and no longer pregnant. She encounters Locke at a table with tarot cards, with one eye the Adam and Eve white stone, the other the black one. He says to Claire: "He was your responsibility but you gave him away, Claire. Everyone pays the price now."

I remember when I first saw this, I just assumed that this was connected to what the fortune teller told Claire regarding giving the baby up for adoption. Now, knowing that Kate ends up with Aaron, it puts things into a different perspective.

I'm sure I will encounter all sorts of interesting moments that will have a different meaning. I had forgotten how interesting S1 Lost was before everything became so complex with the island.

Now that we know abit more about how time travel works on the island (a mental experience), it also got me to think about the whole flashback format.

Could the flashbacks themselves be some sort of mental experience induced by the island? What if the characters are not just reflecting on the past - what if they are quickly reliving it (without the Desmond ability to interact in a different fashion)?

In the first Locke flashback episode, Locke, Michael and Kate go boar hunting. The boar charges, and Michael and Locke get knocked over/injured. Locke has a flashback - lunch break soldier board game with co-worker, where his manager mocks the walkabout. The co-worker asks if Helen is going with him (in later episodes we will learn more about Helen).

We jump back to Locke lying on the ground on the island, and Kate asks him if he is OK. Locke responds that he is OK, and accidentally calls Kate "Helen".
Kate then says "Helen? You called me Helen", and Locke responds "Did I". They then continue to discuss the boar.

I couldn't help but think of the disorientation/confusion Desmond experienced during his mental travels.

Good point Shikotee - re: post# 284. That just goes to show that they've had some elements of this show planned since the beginning.

First time poster, long time reader from Argentina.

Some pilot’s comments here: Did anyone notice that during the first minute of the show, during the helicopter flight the course on the wet compass was 150 degrees (briefly shown on the right of the screen, Frank is checking it against the cheat sheet and presses his thumb on it), BUT a few moments later the course on the big instrument on the left, with the needle across it (call RMI – Remote Magnetic Indicator) was 305 degrees? That’s almost an opposite course.

The wet compass is a 100% magnetic instrument, while the RMI is both magnetic/electronic. I don’t think this is a production mistake … Frank presses his thumb on the wet compass then checks Dan’s notes and he truly looks somehow puzzled. Any theories on how this might work?

Okay, I know I said I wasn’t going to give this any more thought, but in the interest of fairness …

I was somewhat annoyed by the Lost writers invoking the time-travel plot device, because it requires causality violation. In brief summary: causality is the concept that something cannot happen before its cause has happened. This might superficially seem obvious, but it is the basis of (nearly) all modern science; the most famous example being the second law of thermodynamics, which (among other things) holds that the “information” (matter/energy) content of a closed system (e.g., the universe) must be conserved (cannot be created/destroyed). This infers causality, because data from the future would apparently be “created,” and hence violate this principle. Causality is important, because without it, no observations can be trusted as valid, and hence, science as we know it becomes moot. As recently as 2004 Steven Hawking revised his well-known theories about black holes to “plug” a hole allowing for destruction of information in the singularity; despite the “elegance” of his original solution, he modified it in order to preserve causality and quiet objections from other physicists.

In short: backward time-travel requires violation of causality, and as such, is rejected by the vast majority of physicists as impossible (with caveats to mentioned shortly). Probably already getting too deep into the science here, but suffice it to say that there are “special” circumstances under which some physicists believe causality can be reversed, if only at the subatomic level. Hawking himself has suggested the “chronology protection conjecture” as a means of handling these special cases at the macroscopic level and preserving “meaningful” causality. However, in the interest of scientific fairness, and in consonance with the Thomas Kuhn’s observation that all paradigm shifts originate with ideas “rejected by the vast majority,” I present the following (with apologies if this has been mentioned elsewhere … barely have time to keep with this blog):

A Cauchy horizon stabilized via Casimir effect could theoretically allow paradox-free time-travel consistent with the Novikov conjecture. I speculate that this is the “scientific” basis for the Lost writers’ plot developments.

There are too many other Lost references to causality for this possibility to be ignored. For example, Scottish philosopher David Hume (influenced by John Locke, and influential to his contemporary Jean-Jacques Rousseau) is noted for his work with inductive inference and causal relationships. The collected works regarding causality, perception, and reality greatly influenced later thinkers, including Carl Jung, with his theory of synchronicity … (this selection taken from wiki):

“Events that happen which appear at first to be coincidence, but are later found to be causally related are termed as ‘incoincident’. Jung believed that many experiences perceived as coincidence were not merely due to chance but, instead, suggested the manifestation of parallel events or circumstances reflecting this governing dynamic. One of Jung's favourite quotes on synchronicity was from Through the Looking-Glass by Lewis Carroll, in which the White Queen says to Alice: ‘It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards’.”
In turn, Jung influenced others, such as Richard Alpert (aka Ram Dass), Timothy Leary, Robert Anton Wilson, and Deepak Chopra, who increasingly relied on a conglomeration of ideas from various sources, including ancient mysticism, Jung’s collective consciousness, and quantum physics (specifically the Heisenberg uncertainty principle) toward the old/new doctrine of destiny/responsibility assumption. Again from wiki, “The doctrine combined with reversed causation can further be found explicitly expressed in works such as A Course in Miracles.”

Now, let me take this one step further. Suppose the island harbors natural (via strict probability) localized means of reversing causality … Ben’s magic box effectively becomes Alice’s looking-glass. Now suppose that to save the world (if the natural balance established by the island is disturbed, inducing mass-reversal of causality, leading to [as mentioned earlier] the dissolution of scientific laws, and hence the universe as we know it), someone (the “economist” – economics deals with creation/destruction of goods/services, i.e. “information” in the physics sense) must restore the island’s natural balance. The 108 minutes is too coincidentally correlated to the orbital period of a low-earth orbiting satellite for me to discount (see synchronicity, etc.), so I have to believe there was a satellite somehow maintaining this balance, until Locke (with his empiricist “show me” mentality) potentially screwed it all up until Desmond (I infer that turning the fail-safe key will change the course of nature and save us all) reversed his action, but only temporarily. Sayid is killing people for Ben in the future, because he knows if he doesn’t, they will lead to the destruction of the universe by disturbing the island’s balance, and Jack can never be allowed to return, for the same reason. I predict the entire series will end with Sayid killing Jack.

There, this completes my theorization, okay?

→ 287. Posted by: ealgumby at March 3, 2008 03:17 PM

Wow. Forget the nosebleed. I think my brain just exploded.

>>>I predict the entire series will end with Sayid killing Jack.
→ 287. Posted by: ealgumby at March 3, 2008 03:17 PM

Yeah, baby!

That would be cool by me. But aside from your interesting analysis, speaking from a storytelling perspective, I do think Jack will return to the island.

→ 287. Posted by: ealgumby
I actually really enjoyed reading your lengthy post, and mostly followed right along with it. So the causality violation thing bothers you? It bothered me too initially. (Daniel's claim that he wasn't going to teach Eloise the maze for another 2 hours, yet she knew it since her little rat-consciousness had been to the future, but then she croaked without being taught the maze, which wasn't necessary anymore anyway since she knew it...)

But I decided to not let it bother me anymore, and this is how I look at it:

-Lost = Very entertaining.
-Lost = Fictional TV show.
-Desmond travels back and forth in time in his mind between 1996 & 2004.
-Producers make it clear that the future cannot be changed on Lost, so no paradox worries.
-Producers make the rules of the show.
-I suspend my disbelief, and focus on being very entertained.
-I am happy, and look forward to Thursday nights!

In other words, I'll accept whatever rules they make and whatever plot-lines are thrown at me, unless it becomes un-entertaining.

That will never happen of course, so I'm along for the ride until the end, and I'm not going to sweat the liberties taken by the show to keep it entertaining or keep the story moving forward.

@290

"but then she croaked without being taught the maze"

As I have mentioned previously, I believe we are meant to believe that Eloise is taught the maze while Desmond is unconscious. Just because we did not actually see Faraday teaching the rat does not in fact mean that it did not happen, which is what you are inferring.

Remember - each episode of Lost (without commercials) is about 42 minutes. It must be a challenge for the writers to squeeze in so much, and cut out the fluff. In this case, they tell you that Faraday will teach Eloise, and I personally take them at their word, despite the fact that they did not spend 1-2 minutes and show me the process.

Otherwise, what do you think Faraday was doing during the time Desmond was unconscious?

Also - remember that the flashbacks/time travel is viewed from Desmond's perspective. They can't show us Faraday training Eloise because it is not Faraday's flashback, and Desmond is unconscious.

Keep in mind - when Faraday mentioned two hours, he likely did not mean it literally. It was an estimated point of time in the future that he believed that he would be training Eloise.

Sorry to have to repeat myself, but concerning Eloise and the maze- Daniel said "because I won't teach it to her until an hour from now". Not 2 hours. One hour. Sheesh, people, do yourselves a favor and read all of the posts.

@291

"Eloise is taught the maze while Desmond is unconscious."

ok now I'm confused. Why would Faraday teach Eloise the maze while Desmond is unconscious if she already knows how to do the maze?

I predict the series will end with Cindy's Scarf killing Sayid.

shikotee, I didn't mean you, you're post wasn't up yet when I was writing. Didn't want you to think I was biting your head off for mentioning 2 hours. Clearly, you understand that Eloise learned the maze and that no further mystery lies there.

@ealgumby #287 & Joepike #290:

I agree with joe - or as I tell my girlfriend when she starts in on the impossibilities of the plot "that's how they wrote the script".

One thing Joe - not to nitpick but the order of events was:

1) Eloise runs the maze.
2) Daniel says "I'm not going to teach it to her for another hour".
3) Desmond leaps back to 2004.
4) Desmond wakes up and says he was just in 2004 for 5 minutes.
5) Daniel says, "Interesting, you were out of it for the past 75 minutes"

Eloise could have died 5 minutes before Desmond "snapped out of it" therefore giving Daniel the 60 minutes that he would have needed before teaching her the maze.

@296

1) Eloise runs the maze.
2) Daniel says "I'm not going to teach it to her for another hour".
3) Desmond leaps back to 2004.
4) Desmond wakes up and says he was just in 2004 for 5 minutes.
5) Daniel says, "Interesting, you were out of it for the past 75 minutes"

Eloise could have died 5 minutes before Desmond "snapped out of it" therefore giving Daniel the 60 minutes that he would have needed before teaching her the maze.

Huh????? Why does he have to teach it to her, she already knows it, doesn't she?

Interesting point Rudy. I'm thinking that Eloise must be "taught" (even if it's only going through the motions) so that there will be something for her to see when she is sent to the future. If she had gone into the future one hour and just saw Daniel scribbling in his book and Des snoring on the chair, then when she came back she wouldn't have known anything. So, even though she demonstrated that she knows the maze, a walk-through (at the very least) is necessary. By the way, did anyone call dibs on Keamy yet?

@293

The experiment is such: Faraday turns on machine with setting, Eloise is affected by rays from machine, causing mind time travel. We now have future Eloise in the maze, who navigates it successfully. One would presume that at some point, the rays wear off, and Eloise becomes normal Eloise (without maze knowledge).

Faraday then teaches Eloise how to navigate the maze while Desmond is unconscious. After Eloise is trained (within an hour), Eloise dies. Desmond regains consciousness, and they talk about the death and the need of a constant.

The mistake that everyone seems to be making is the assumption that once Eloise is zapped, Eloise will forever retain the knowledge of the maze.

@292 Lost in Baltimore

Good correction!

Got it! Thanks, feel much better now! This show wouldn't be as good without you guys explaining it to me!

@LIB/298 & shikotee/300

Eloise does not need to be taught the maze once she came back, because the timeline has her knowing how to do the maze either way ...

hate to keep quoting from wiki, but want to ref my source ... if my conjecture about Novikov is correct, then:

"The Novikov Principle is able to circumvent most commonly-cited paradoxes which are often alleged to exist should time travel be possible (and are often claimed to make it impossible). A common example of the principle in action is the idea of preventing disasters from happening in the past and the potential paradoxes this may cause (notably the idea that preventing the disaster would remove the motive for the traveler to go back and prevent it and so on). The Novikov self-consistency principle states that a time traveler would not be able to do so. An example is the Titanic sinking; even if there were time travelers on the Titanic, they obviously failed to stop the ship from sinking. However, the Novikov Principle does allow an individual to change the past, providing that any changes he/she makes do not actually become apparent until the individual returns to the present - i.e. a time traveler could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses seconds before it occurs."

@ealgumby/302

Just like Desmond, Eloise was not sent into the future. She was sent from the future into the past. Therefore, she had to have been trained on the maze while Desmond was unconscious.

Interesting, DW, but Daniel said "wait, she's not back yet" after he hit her with the beam but before he let her loose in the maze. I think that meant she "went away" and then came back. Otherwise he might've said "she's not here yet".

@DW/303

In the future that "Eloise-the-rat-who-already-knows-how-to-do-the-maze" came from, yes, she was taught how to do it,

but, in the past she returned to from the future where she was taught to do the maze, she does NOT need to be taught how to do it again.

The important element of the Novikov Principle (which I hope you see reads almost line for line what was recently said about there being no paradoxes on the show), is that the future is ultimately not altered (and hence the paradox avoided), NOT that it has to happen exactly the same way. In the future where Eloise came from, she knew how to do the maze ... the only thing Novikov requires is that she know how to do it at the same point when she returns to the past. Since she already knows how to do the maze when she returns to the past, at the same time she went back, she knows how to do the maze. This is consistent with the Novikov Principle, and explains how the writers of the show can promise there will be no paradox issues.

Good point Lost in Baltimore. I wonder if will see or maybe already have seen people move from the present, into the future, and back again.

MAC--YOU are MY Constant in this maze of Lost. Thank you for this recap; thank you for this excellent forum. I couldn't stand to watch anymore without you and all the great comments here.

READERS-stop thinking that "time" acts like a straight line as you know it. Mathematics already has suggested it curves, bends back on itself, and can represented by an infinity loop. It could even be represented by the way tv scripts are written.....hmmmmm.

TRY THIS: A math teacher once told me to think of the future like a "circle picture" made up entirely of straight lines, all the same length, that all run through a common point (CONSTANT?? ISLAND??) at the same point on their length (their diameters would all be the same length), but moved by a few degrees, which eventually forms a perfect circle. Elementary school children often create pretty "thread" circles like this. Very intricate, very beautiful, very simple, with concentric circles radiating out from the center point. Sort of a mathematician's dream catcher web.

Soooo #63, there would be choices of many futures, but all for the same person.

#109 Maybe human memory is affected in these time jumps. So DanF, if he has "jumped", may be trying a simple MENSA exercise with Charlotte to repair the memory portion of his brain.

Or maybe he is seeing if he can keep the time-jump generated, "Algernon"-heightened abilities. Or maybe not.

#118 The clue here is that Des would lose P if Charlie did not eventually die, as his futureflash showed, and Claire would not get "saved". So there is no paradox in this line of his life.

But in another choice-line of his "lives" (life #2B, say) who knows? Move the degree of circumference intersection a little, and you've got another life/lifeline. Just like Des says....he could literally "see you in another life, brudda".

Maybe that's why the degree of entry or exit from the island is so important. To get the same life-line you have already been living, you have to enter and exit along the exact same line or --POOF-- you're in another life-line, with different details and stuff to adjust to. Go too far and you get a nosebleed and die because the changes are too overwhelming aka Mitowski's comment "I can't get back" just before he died.

FINALLY: I think that Charles Widmore gives Des Penny's address because he knows that leaving the water on in the men's room will trigger a time-jump for Des, and Des will be gone from that time/will never be able to follow through and find her house.

Or... he thinks he knows that Des never finds and marries Penny in the future, so he is safe giving Des the address (cue the evil laughter).

Or... he WANTS Des to find Penny so that he (CW) can use Des's experiences with time-jumping to his own evil purposes, about which we know nothing at this point, but have a clue with Ben's activities.

I think the log book of the ship Black Rock must contain references to these island- generated time problems that the crew suffered before they died, or survived in a changed world. That's why Widmore bid to win it--to learn more and to find the island's location. (Was it originally found with the 2 dead bodies in the cave? Oooooo.)

#183 There are no growing continuity errors IMHO. These writers said they would not disappoint us the way X-Files did. And indeed they have not, again IMHO. Each week it is an excursion into the wonderful world of future quantum physics--for the innocent layman! (Remember how each Star Trek series educated us?)

#265 BINGO. You've got my vote. It's either this, or the writers are trying to prove the quantum (time) theory of Schroedinger's cat with Eloise, Sayid, Locke, Jack, etc.

Or both. Or not.......

OCIS (of course it's silly) Namaste.

Damn you Eloise!!!

You're the new Claire's/Not Claire's Aaron!

But seriously...

I have it on good authority that there was a scene that was cut out that would fully clarify the whole Eloise training thing. Due to time constraints, they cut out the scene where Faraday feeds Eloise a small portion of Cindy's scarf, and this is what truly provides the knowledge of the maze.

Ok. Maybe that wasn't so serious!

But seriously seriously...

Here's hoping that when they replay the episode with captions, maybe they will make the matter with Eloise more clear.
Knowing full well that they are anti paradox, it would make most sense that Eloise was still trained. Otherwise, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Long time lurker, first time poster, etc. etc. It looks like "the constant" has brought many out of lurking.

I think ealgumby is definitely on to something with the Novikov Principle. It clearly solves the Faraday formula conundrum as well.

Thus, Desmond smiles in 1996 after reaching Penny on the phone in 2004 because he archives synchronicity. This also allows his memory to "synch," giving rise to his recognition that he is in 2004 and knows (or at least recognizes Sayid).

Does it not seem too far-fetched that the memory loss experienced by Desmond may be due to the uncertainty as to whether the correct events will transpire during his mind-flip back to 1996? In other words, if he does not get Penny's number, an essential event that would be required to reach his 2004 experience, he would not regain synchronicity thus his memory and the time-flips would cascade out of control ala Minkowski.

In my opinion Lost is the finest show that I have ever watched. I don't have time for much TV, but I make time for this provocative show. Mac, your recaps are an essential part of my experience. Kudos to you for finding the time.

While I was contemplating my decision to remain in the "mind time-travel" vs. the "body time-travel" camp... I had this thought - perhaps... the Dharma food drops did not occur in the "current timeline" we've observed. If they were dropped above the anomaly (snowglobe), and time has been so perverted... maybe the supplies were, in fact, dropped before the Purge... while Dharma was still the boss of the island. Only, just recently, because of the Des Swan Hatch malfunction with the E-M generator, did the parachute resupply manage to make it to the surface. Heck - there be more of them up there in the ether making their way to the surface as we blog.

It's also possible Faraday is lying to Des about Eloise not having learned the maze beforehand -- all he did was shine a nice purple light on her, successfully fooling not only Des but the rest of us as well.

The show is loaded with clues to support the theory that there's a vast Dharma-wing conspiracy going on:

@ Randy # 164 - Yeah, who ARE the bidders for the Black Rock logbook and why is Widmore so eager to get it?

@ btly #185 - Yes, what's the deal with the soldier knocking the coins out of Des's hands by the phone booth? Seemed fishy, though it could have been a fake clue.

Polar bear bones in the desert -- easy way to recruit an eager young anthropologist.

Just saying this show is no stranger to long cons and the writers could be totally messing with us. They did say everything had a valid scientific explanation.

→ 311. Scooby-Dude
-- all he did was shine a nice purple light on her, successfully fooling not only Des but the rest of us as well.
-- The show is loaded with clues to support the theory that there's a vast ... conspiracy...
-- Polar bear bones in the desert -- easy way to recruit an eager young anthropologist.
-- Just saying this show is no stranger to long cons and the writers could be totally messing with us...
_________
I totally agree -
> The makers of LOST have a well established history of long con/messing. Which we welcome. That history includes double & triple agents and team players turned rogue lone-wolf.
> I think mass conspiracy will be one of the final, major plotlines too.
> Polar Bear plant as a recruiting tool for a crucial to the story young Doctor. YES.
> The "time-travel" lamp on Eloise came off as sort of campy IMO. More like the 'keep the pancakes warm' light in front of the IHOP short order cook.

Long time lurker & 2nd time posting. As always Mac GRAA, you're the best. 2 points: Sorry if they're re-posts but this blog has gone wild over the past couple of years & there's just 24 hrs in a day here in my little corner of Delaware & there's just not enough time to read them all but I love this blog!

1: Seems like finding your constant allows you to recall some of your past/future travels. That's why 1996 Des knows that he'll call Penny on 12/24/04. I think it went something like "Just give me your number Penny, I'll only call you once, 8 years from now"

2:Last week we all were wondering about Miles blackmailing Ben for $3.2 Million. Did you notice the compass heading that Frank L. was following towards the freighter? His "cheat sheet" from Faraday showed 2 seperate headings & some text. The text was "follow for 40 minutes" & the bearing was close to 300 degrees. Think of a compass as a clock face with North being 12:00 (0 degrees). The second bearing was pointing more towards 1:00 (30 degrees) so was Miles trying to tell Ben what heading to follow when it's time for Ben to leave the island? That would mean that.......Miles is Ben's man in the boat! Keep posting people!

Here's a wacky thought....what if the island itself is sort of a time wrinkle, ripple, whatever. So, the things that were in the Lostie's pasts are in fact appearing on the island as well. Kate's horse, Dave, etc. Or, the Losties are caught in this weird time-shifting thing. Darn, I understand this theory in my mind, but can't really explain it because it's too complicated....anyone with me?

Perhaps it would be special if for sentimental reasons, Eloise could be buried while wrapped in Cindy's scarf...RNM, what do you think?

@meg/314

This is somewhat consistent with philosopher David Hume's concept of "constant conjunction," whereby the link between cause and effect is the relationship between feeling strongly about something and acting on those feelings. Desmond needed to establish his "constant" in order to avoid the insanity which results from trying to reason cause-effect (a losing proposition according to Hume ... David, not Desmond), rather than essentially emoting it. Desmond has been affected more than others on the island due to his high radiation exposure, yet everyone else is also likely to experience (less intense) feeling/result constant conjunctions; thereby producing the "miracles" and visions.

As an aside, I googled "Novikov Principle" and found it was posted to other Lost forums long before I came across it (rats!). Don't necessarily buy the "reality" of the science, but will gladly embrace it for the purposes of advancing the plot according to the producers/writers "rules," and willingly admit I was wrong to (God forbid) question their wisdom in the first place.

As another aside, I feel like I'm expending quite a bit of effort just to keep up with this site ... how the heck do those people on the "other" forums (and I'm sure the Lost devotees out there know what I'm talking about) do it? Dude, talk about obsessed! I do not feel so badly about myself anymore. Anyway, mac's recaps blow the other stuff out of the water in terms of both content and pure entertainment value.

@ Mister_Grimm #282

Good point. Yes, there have been a number of Stephen King refs throughout the series. The one reference that really stands out for me is the first ep of season 3. Juliet has chosen an SK novel for 'Book Club', which doesn't go down well with all of the club members. (Does anyone recall what SK book it was?) Ben, in particular, though he doesn't attend that week's session of 'Book club', seems to show disdain towards SK when he runs into Juliet holding her copy of the book after everyone has run outside to watch flight 815 crash overhead. Does Ben (as well as several other Others) have an issue with the inaccuracies of Stephen King's version of astral/time travel, having experienced it themselves? Are they afraid Juliet is getting too close to the bone by choosing a SK novel to study? Why, oh why, of all books they could have chosen, was Stephen King that week's topic-of-discussion at book club?

I love the Easter Eggs the writers leave for us via the books the characters are reading. I'm sure some are there as red herrings, others are shout-outs to fans who bring up the parallels to other fiction writings, while others are clues as to what the hell is going on. But which are which? Was Stephen King chosen for Book Club as a shout out to Mister_Grimm from the writers?

re: Stephen King

I remember reading an article by him regarding Lost a year or so ago. At one point, he was a huge fan of the show - I think this was around season one and two.

I wonder what he thinks now?

SK is still a fan.

From Entertainment Weekly:

STEPHEN KING'S BEST OF 2007: TV
1. LOST
“Still the best. I rewatched the entire third season to make sure, and — yes — still the best. Heroes just doesn't have its mythic grandeur. People are reaching for the stars here. And maybe beyond. Really, there's never been anything like it.”

Lostpedia has a page with:
-SK references to Lost
-Lost references to SK
-Parallels between the works of SK and Lost

http://www*lostpedia*com/wiki/Stephen_King

(As always, replace the * with periods)

another longtime lurker...coming out of my 'lost' closet...

i believe the book you are referring to mr. grimm is 'carrie'...

i love this blog and i honestly do not believe there is another like it...

mac...you are the best...

@Mister_Grimm/282

Yeah, too many old SK refs to ignore, as well as Star Trek ... the writers are clearly not (at least run by) a young group, as indicated by nods to stuff 20-somethings probably never heard of.

brand new here and i already messed up...

the SK book reference was for claire, not to mr. grimm

man...do i belong here, only 'time' will tell. but i guess this all ties in with the past episode

@RNM/283

Thanks for the memories!

@Diego/286

A Cauchy horizon will produce the same effect (directional flip-flop, but great call), thereby strengthening my belief the writers are going that way ...

and yes, I have nothing else better to do with my time right now ... supposed to get up early (0-dark-thirty am) to finish some work before tomorrow COB, but cannot sleep, so decided to help myself along with a bottle of George Thorogood ...

Okay, after a rewatch, a couple more minor questions - what was the tattoo the ship guy Keamy had on his shoulder? And is Keamy the same guy that was helping Desmond load the gear on the truck in one of Des' army flashbacks?

Love all the long time lurker, first time posters. I guess it really takes an episode of this magnitude to blow the brain wide open...

So, since it's officially the lull time between episodes, I wanted to share a story of how I got started on LOST:

I gave up on TV in general for a while and about the beginning of the 2nd season many respected friends told me about LOST, and that it was growing to be a work of art. I knew then I should watch the show, but no way was I going to jump in mid-2nd-season. So I avoided the show and people talking about it. I knew it would be worth it in the long run. Though there was one time in passing that my roommate was watching the episode where Desmond, Jack and Locke meet up in the hatch for the first time. I was like, "WTF? I thought they were on an island. Why do they have guns and how the hell did they get to a computerized hatch?" I was skeptical about this as it seemed the writers were mixing plausible reality with non-plausible elements. Still I watched season 1 DVD over the winter hiatus and caught up on 2nd season episodes and was on track come 2006.

Anyways, this kind of brings me back to this episode and others like it. I listen a lot to what the writers have to say publicly. They are very good and not revealing too much. Though it can be considered spoilers. But I rather think it’s a game of 20 questions (more like 2,000 questions), and they answer some questions just to help steer our brains to finding the correct solution. Good examples:

*******Spoiler if you don’t listen to Podcasts*****

The island is purgatory? :: The island is not purgatory.
The monster is nanobots? :: The monster is not nanobots.
Are you making it up as you go? :: Planned from the beginning
*******************************************
Important questions that if never revealed until the end, could cause some LOST fans to revolt and possibly riot. That’s also why they are showing the enhanced episodes right before, a show like this has so many variables that a few main ones need to be pointed out a bit. If I still kept in mind that it could be purgatory at this point then I would being going crazy with possible answers!!!!

Oh yeah I was going to post about this episode.

I asked earlier but no one gave me a reply. This episode does not open up with the notorious “Previously… on LOST”. It starts immediately at the helicopter. I am almost positive this has occurred on other episodes. Does anybody remember which, and if there may be a reason? They could have at least explained about Desmond’s condition in flashbacks, but then again, being that this flashback episode was about flashbacks/flashforwards maybe…. I dunno.

Anybody?

Given my renewed faith that the writers have not just been pulling things out of their asses, I decided to rethink some puzzling aspects from older episodes, so forgive me as I go back to S1/2 for a moment ...

Why polar bears? Then something occurred to me which I'm sure was beaten to death back then but I'll resurrect it again now. If we are willing to suspend disbelief with regard to time travel, then why not the location of the island? What about the portal/wormhole/whatever to get to/from the island?

Was also thinking about Diego's question regarding compass fluctuations, and the simplest answer for that is: fly over one of the magnetic poles. What if the portals to the island are located at the magetic poles (north and south)? The north magnetic pole is in Northern Canada (actually just north of the coast now I believe), and the south magnetic pole is between Australia and Antarctica. Polar bears come from the region near the north magnetic pole, and flight 815 out of Australia was way off course, possibly near the south magnetic pole (?) when it disappeared.

Finally, revisited the 108 minute thing, and its seeming correlation to a satellite. A satellite at an altitdue of about 1200 km will have an orbit that circles the earth every 108 minutes. However, to see the satellite on the ground each time it passes, two things must be true: (1) the satellite must be in a polar orbit (passes over/near both poles each orbit, as opposed to an equatorial orbit, or in-between orbital inclination like the space station or typical shuttle mission), (2) the ground station communicating with the satellite must be near one of the poles as well. This is true because of the dynamics of a satellite orbit at that altitude ... the ground longitude of each "pass" of the satellite will drift by 20-some degrees each time around the earth, so a ground site near the equator will only be able to communicate with the satellite a few times each day. This is why the government puts satellite ground stations in ungodly locations like Thule, Greenland and Fairbanks, Alaska ... they can "talk" to polar-orbiting satellites every time around the planet (e.g., every 108 minutes).

I know I'm long-winded, sorry. Anyway my point is that the 108 minute thing is also consistent with the portal(s) to/from the island being in near-polar locations, assuming the 108 minutes was related to satellite communication.

Just talking about how to get to/from the island ... the island itself could be anywhere, if we're willing to buy into the wormholes/Cauchy horizon/time-travel premise.

Need to get back to work, so I'll shut up now (and I can almost hear the collective sigh of relief).

@ealgumby/323 & 327

Man, thanks a lot for bringing back the Cauchy Horizon Theory, it just blew my mind off (are you related somehow to Dan Faraday?).

For the rest of us I got this little piece of Wikipedia about the Cauchy Horizon:

"In physics, a Cauchy horizon is a light-like boundary of the domain of validity of a Cauchy problem (a particular boundary value problem of the theory of partial differential equations). One side of the horizon contains closed space-like geodesics and the other side contains closed time-like geodesics.
Waves traveling in Misner space approaching a Cauchy horizon would receive a frequency boost each time they pass through the identification world line. As this happens infinitely many times while approaching the horizon, the stress-energy tensor diverges at the horizon. Presumably, this prevents spacetime from developing closed time-like curves that would otherwise be feasible.
Under the averaged weak energy condition (AWEC), Cauchy horizons are inherently unstable. However, cases of AWEC violation, such as the Casimir effect, do exist. If we can assume that the spacetime inside the Cauchy horizon violates AWEC, then the horizon becomes stable and frequency boosting effects would be canceled out by the tendency of the spacetime to act as a divergent lens. Were this conjecture to be shown empirically true, it would provide a counter-example to the strong cosmic censorship conjecture. The simplest example is the internal horizon of a Reissner-Nordström black hole."

Now, even if you fly over the magnetic pole, the wet compass and the RMI should both twist and turn to opposite courses almost at the same time (give or take instrument error) when crossing it … which is not happening here.

I don’t believe that the Island’s portals are on the magnetic poles, or at least that they are ALL the portals. I bet that there are holes here and there that can take you to the Island, given the right course, altitude (or depth, think submarines) and timing. That’s why Dan is so specific about maintaining course 305, which is no easy task on a UH-1H helicopter, during a thunderstorm. And let’s not forget Ben talking to Mike at the end of Season 2, telling him to maintain *exactly* a compass bearing of 325 to find help.

Ealgumby, keep talking! Education is never too expensive!

Cheers.

Shikotee's rewatch thoughts

So - I am up to episode 16 of season 1, and thought I would share some thoughts.

Creepy Ethan Rom confusion

When first watching lost, I remember being thrown off by creepy Ethan when he snags Claire. She escapes, and he encounters Charlie threatening to kill someone each day unless they give up Claire. They set up the trap, catch Ethan, but before Ethan can say anything, Charlie plugs him for good.

I guess I feel a little confused now due to the mobisode that was released with Jack and Ethan. Ethan brings Jack a suitcase of medications, they talk about Claire and her pregnancy. Jack sort of states that he will need help delivering the baby, Ethan has a strange reaction, and explains that he lost both his wife and child in labour.

So - this definitely rounds Ethan out a little more, and explains his emotional involvement. Unfortunately, now that I know that Jack and Ethan had met and talked about Claire and pregnancy, I find it weird that he would not bring any of this up while searching for Claire, while fighting with Ethan, etc.

When they are trying to figure out Ethan's motivation, how can Jack not mention that Ethan had told him that he lost his wife and child during labour, and that Etan has expressed concern about Claire previously?

Anyways - I loved getting background info on Ethan with the mobisode - I just feel that it cheapens/contradicts Jack's reaction of confusion to the kidnapping.

Instead of thinking "an outsider has infiltrated us" (Hurley gets the manifest, and discovers there is no Ethan Rom), would it not been more natural to think "This guy lost his wife and child in labour, I don't think he's playing with a full deck, so let's find him?"

So far - seen lots of trees being uprooted, some whispering, and only Jack has seen images of his dead dad (which we now know was around just as the crash occured via the mobisode where he instructs Vincent to wake Jack up). Clever writers, with the use of sleep deprivation as a possible excuse as to why Jack might be hallucinating. We know better now though...

There have been several times where characters experiencing a flashback are snapped out of it to deal with whatever is going on the island.

@Constance #324 - I also wondered whether ship guy Keamy was same as the guy helping Desmond load the gear on the truck in the army flashbacks. Part of my "this is a Widmore conspiracy" theory.

@callaway76 #326 - why no "Previously on LOST" this time? I figured it was either because they aired the enhanced episode beforehand and it would be somewhat redundant or the writers were trimming non-essential scenes because they cut down the number of episodes this season as a result of the writers' strike (is that true?)

@ealgumby #327 - No worries. I for one am always happy to hear theories about what's going on (though I admit I'll skim if it's too long).

@Meg #206 - "I know this question is going to piss someone off...Why does father Widmore leave the water on in the bathroom??"

Meg, was that pun intended?

@Claire #214 - Widmore turning on the tap using a hanky. What if it's like Sayid the Assassin wiping his hands after tossing the cell phone in the trash, reverse wiping off of fingerprints kinda thing because if you're in the wrong time period you don't want those germs/viruses to get into your system (the reason Bruce Willis wore protective gear in his first trip to the past in "Twelve Monkees").

By the way, the year Bruce Willis went back to in the movie was 1996.

And don't forget the whole quarantine business with the hatches, however that might be connected.

I just found a polar bear tooth in my fax room? Wazzupwitdat???

I'm sorry I know a lot of people seem to understand this time thing, that theres many time lines, that this episode seems plausible for Desmond go back to 1996 blah blah blah.
But THINK about it. How can Desmond go back to 1996 and not change his future? I'm referring to the comments i made way back at → 46 cos i just don't understand anymore. If Des "went" back to 1996 with the info which a lot of you believe was discovered by Daniel during those 8 years, wouldnt that change the future, as in the fact that Daniel now knows how to work the machine? Hes tells Penny that he'll phone in 8 years and he does. that gives a clear indication that time runs a one line system. If there are many times lines that run around all over the place wouldnt there have been another desmond running around way back when he crash landed in 1996? this meeting with Daniel must have happened IN 1996.

Ok I think i've been exposed to something. My head is about to burst. After all the Lost episodes i've watched this is the only one i've had difficulty grasping. I apologise for my tone once again. But then again a good debate never did anyone much harm,

right?

→ 305. Posted by: ealgumby
The important element of the Novikov Principle...is that the future is ultimately not altered (and hence the paradox avoided), NOT that it has to happen exactly the same way.

Brilliant- thanks. Kind of rounds it all out for me and explains why Dan didn't necessarily have to train the rat...though he DID have plenty of time to do it while Des was 'out' as so many have pointed out.

→ 292. Posted by: Lost in Baltimore
Daniel said "because I won't teach it to her until an hour from now". Not 2 hours. One hour. Sheesh, people, do yourselves a favor and read all of the posts.

My dearest LiB, I want to officially apologize for making the 2 hour vs. 1 hour mistake in several of my posts this week. Especially since I did read all of the previous entries before posting. It's simply inexcusable. However, in any future postings I will continue to say '2 hours' since I know it will annoy the heck out of you.

;o)

However, since I have nothing more to add to the Eloise discussion...(in the immortal words of Jesse Jackson on SNL)...the point is moot.

And now my take on the Widmore leaving the water on incident. I don't think he left it on as a time-travel trigger for Des or anything like that. I think it was partially for germ avoidance and partially a control issue. He gave up Penny's address, but left the water on as a sign that he still holds the 'power'. (Sure Des, here's Pen's address, but you're still my be-yotch so turn the water off for me.)

You can read a lot into Widmore leaving the water on... or, it can just be a simple mechanism to show how much time has passed while Desmond was out cold.

And nobody went to the bathroom in all that time? What do we read from THAT?

I think the most amazing thing about this show is simply the constant analysis that is flowing around it. We are "reading" what we think are the most subtle clues, when in fact, they may just be... not much.

Oh sure, some of it is there on purpose, and the level of planning speaks volumes to the writers ingenuity, but let's also remember that there are puh-lenty of people for whom Lost is just an interesting TV show they watch each week. They don't know about quantum physics, or time travel, or any of the other heady scientific concepts being tossed in this blog.

Go to a McDonald's, and I'll give you $100 if you can find just one person able to chat with you about a Cauchy Horizon, but you have to give me $5 for every person who watches Lost. I expect to consistently make money there. :)

I guess my point is, the show can't go too deep, or it will leave the masses behind. My wife is already complaining about "this time travel stuff" and she is actually a reader of SF and has a good handle on such things from my patient explanations, because I do get most of the physics involved, or at least I get the *theory* of the physics that *could* be involved... I think.

Nosebleed time. Where's that scarf...

@AC/333

Yeah, you make some sense, but the premise here is that as long as paradox issues are avoided, there can be different timelines that end up in the same place (the Novikov Principle). Think of it this way ... you know the old cliche "it's not the destination, but the journey," well the Novikov Principle is the exact opposite: "the journey doesn't matter as long as the same destination is reached."

Personally, I don't buy it in a "real world" sense (too much potential for butterfly effect issues for me to believe multiple journeys could ever end up the same). However, this is a "legitimate" theory that the writers are apparently relying on to make the whole time travel thing work acceptably (which is what they promised), so I'll go along for the ride.

You might wonder how is it determined when different timelines need to resync? How do you ever know the answer to "are we there yet?" The Novikov Principle basically says things will always work out the same in the end, whenever that is, and participants in the process don't need to know that answer (i.e., the whole "course correction" thing).

re: Widmore and the sink

As many have noted, it certainly is weird that he would leave the sink running and leave. Great observations regarding the germaphobia. I just assumed he was an pretentious asshole, who need not be bothered with turning off water.

What bugs me more is why was the sink over flowing? Did he actually plug the sink? Why did this sink not have an overflow drainage hole, which is pretty much a standard for many sinks, especially public ones?

@238/aj "3. Desmond did have time travel at the beginning of season 3 and when he was back he wasn't disoriented and continued having future flashes without having any side effects."

In order to not be affected, you must have a constant. In this epi it was Penny. My theory is that in the previous epi "Flashes before Your Eyes," it was Charlie.

Desmund had Charlie both on the island and in his FB. I guess it could be said that the picture of Des and Pen could also have served as a constant as well. Maybe it was a combination of the two.

(insert your own silly scarf reference here cuz nothing comes to mind right now)

@251/Silhouette "In regards to if Lost next episode will reference Christmas..."

The did in this epi. I thought that it was interesting that it was Sayid, the Muslim, that made the reference:

SAYID: I didn't realize it was almost Christmas. It's been...

This happened in the Comm room when they notice the calendar.

@334/JoePike "...in the immortal words of Jesse Jackson on SNL)...the point is moot."

Or, in the mortal words of Joey Tribbiani... It's a moo point. Like a cow's opinion. It doesn't matter."

@226/227
The ultimate cop-out ending would be:

Scene: An airplane breaks up over the island. As the wreckage falls below the palm tree line, the camera pans back to Locke, who yells, "Sawyer and Hurley! There may be survivors. I want you to go to the beach. Go! I want lists of names in three days."

@ welh #341 -
Auuggghhh!! You just gave me chill bumps!! I think that's an awesome ending.

Does anyone have any theories about the two bunny #15's showing up simultaneously in the film? If it is only "mind travel" how come the two bunnies are at the same place/time? Wouldn't there little bunny bodies be involved?

Damn - where's my scarf... nose bleed!

P.S. - I think the time portal is in RNM's fax room...

@ bcre8ve @ 340

Or, in the mortal words of Christopher Walken... "I got a fever, and the only presciption for it is more cow bell."

JoePike, in the interest of being kind to those of inferior intelligence, I will not begrudge you the continued usage of 2 hours. I'm nice that way.

The most compelling show in the history of TV is predicated upon flashbacks/ flashfowards as a means of developing characters. This tool is used in every episode. Perhaps we are simply watching them time travel via their minds, but are unaware somehow.

In both of Desmond's flashbacks, he remembers being on the island. In everyone else's flashback, I think they are true flashbacks for the audience's prespective and not time travel.

So....

Episode 18 - Numbers

This is the first Hurley flashback, where we learn that he won the lottery. After all sorts of bad luck, Hurley goes to the institution to talk to Lenny, the person whom he got the numbers off of.

Lenny is muttering, and playing Connect 4 by himself. Hurley keeps asking questions about the numbers, and Lenny is muttering the numbers while playing.

Only when Hurley mentions that he won the lottery while using the numbers, does Lenny react.

Lenny: "You used those numbers to play the lottery?

Hurley: "Uh Yeah"

Lenny: "You shouldn't have done that. (hands to his head) You've opened the box"

Hurley: "I've what?"

Lenny: "Awwww You Shouldn't have used those numbers!"

Hurley: "Why not?"

Lenny: "It doesn't stop. You gotta get away from those numbers. You gotta get far far away..."

Ward guy: "Alright..."

Lenny: "Do you hear me?

Lenny is dragged out because he is freaking out, but he tells Hurley that he got the numbers off Sam Toomeys in Australia.

As we all know, Ben will later refer to his magic box when he talks about how Cooper was brought to the island.

(When it goes back to island events, Hurley and Charlie cross the rope bridge, which collapses. Hurley indicates that he want to continue without Jack and Sayid, and Charlie yells "You're acting like a bloody lunatic" - funny considering we will find out Hugo was in an institution).

Hurley then travels to Australia to find Sam, but finds out through his widow that he passed away 4 years earlier. She explains that Sam and Lenny served together in the US Navy, they were stationed together at a listening post monitoring long wave transmissions out of the south pacific. Nothing but static, til one night, about 16 years ago, a voice comes through repeating those numbers.

I wonder if we will find out more about 1988 this season. Not only is it the time that Sam and Lenny hear the numbers, but it is also the time that Rousseau and her expedition crash on the island.

For those of you out there that doubt the writers, I would highly recommend starting from the beginning. It is quite pleasurable making all of these small connections. I imagine that once everything is revealed by the end of the show, it will once again be entertaining to watch it from start to finish.

@332 Red...Neck...Man

You sir have the coolest fax room EVER !

Re: 344/Lost in Baltimore
Hmmm...I think I was insulted? But I'm not sharp enough to know for sure. Anyhoo, as I and others pointed out, it's all moot/moo anyway.

I take comfort in the fact that others of inferior intelligence often make mistakes too. Like our beloved producers in their latest podcast continually saying Des went back to 1994 instead of 1996. Guess I'm in good company.

@347/shikotee "I imagine that once everything is revealed by the end of the show, it will once again be entertaining to watch it from start to finish."

I agree. I'm saving up my vacation time so that I can take all summer of 2010 off to re-watch. [8^)

@345 Rich Silver

"Perhaps we are simply watching them time travel via their minds, but are unaware somehow."

This is what I was thinking. From what I have seen, there certainly is evidence that the island may somehow be affecting peoples minds, causing them to re-experience past events. The most obvious was with Locke, where he calls Kate "Helen" by mistake just after his flashback.

It would be rather brilliant to learn later on that the island induces flashbacks/flashforwards.

@ emmy4hurley #321 -

They were reading Carrie! Thanks!

@ Clementine #318 -

Re: Stephen King refs at Lostpedia. Thanks for the heads up, Clementine.

Re: 349/JoePike

Yes, but I was kidding of course!

Lovelost, Clementine, Alais Longthought - come now, there's plenty of Des to go around. With all his zipping about through time, that Hot Scots Replicator is already working in overdrive! But tell me, do you want him for his body or his mind? Cos, I don't think you're gonna get both at the same time, aaaalllll the time.

Any claims yet on Jin? In my world, he's hot hot hot!

last week i was having doubts as to whether the show was going anywhere, but after this episode, those doubts are gone. the producers have pulled it together once again.

I think Des got ahold of Calvin (from Calvin and Hobbes) 's transmogrifier.

I think Old Man Widmore left the water on cuz he's a dick.

I think Penny is way gd hot.

I think Sun and Jin are the last 2 of the O6.

I think the island is an alien entity (a la ST:TNG Far Point Station).

I think this damn TV show makes me think way more than any damn TV has a bloody right to, brutha.

best question raised worth brain cycles:

"Also, weren't all of the Oceanic 6 on the water at end of Season 2 when explosion went off (Jack and gang were on a pier, Sayid in boat), so none of them had physical contact with island???"

147 - "I think the writers have a new and compelling twist on the subject -- the conciousness travels, not the body -- I have not seen that one before, in all of the various time travel movies, books . . ."

Quantum Leap, anyone?

An interesting anagram of the auction house Southfield's:

Shifted Soul

and the funny ones:

Fished Lotus
Lofted Sushi

@358 Posted by: Brian

I used to love Quantum Leap. I was much younger then - I wonder how it holds up now.

Maybe Desmond is hoping that "his next leap.................. will be the leap home!"

Lol! If Hurely starts leaping, Charlie can be his "Al". Of course, instead of smoking cigars, he'll just do heroin (sorry folks - I am re-watching season 1 after all!).

@Christos/359

flu does this
foil the suds

use this fold

I agree- Jin is hot, Quantum Leap was a good show, and Old Man Widmore is a dick. I've never been able to catch the last episode of Quantum Leap though...Dang! I'm assuming he finally.......leapt home?

@ealgumby/361

LOL

do you think the writers winked at us once more with the anagram? or just a coincidence?

@Christos/363

Nah, just an easy word to play with:

fuel his dots
lithe do fuss
thus so filed

otis flushed

No, Sam didn't leap home.

God the Bartender gave him the choice of going home and spending the rest of his life with his gorgeous wife, or continuing to jump and right wrongs.

To paraphrase the knight in Indy's Last Crusade - he chose poorly.

(tongue in cheek time).
How did "Eloise T. L. Rat" really die?...

~ She traveled forward in time, found Charlie's stash in the airplane bathroom, snorted some with Charlie, spent the next hour (or was it 2) trying to convince Charlie she was not an hallucination, listened to a few new Drive Shaft tunes, flashed back to Oxford with a scarf she found on the plane, got a nosebleed and ran the maze on instinct... because a girl knows how to find a tissue when she needs one.

~ Or, she became so forlorn, betrayed and distraught when she saw Daniel writing in his notebook that Desmond was his constant, that she took her own life. I believe her dying thoughts were "Daniel... I... will... always... be... your... Constant."

~ Or, she became so smitten once she met Desmond, that she accidently traveled too far forward to March 2008, saw how many of the gals on this blog ogle the over-rated Scottish soap opera star, returned to her lab and knowing she had no chance of winning his favor, took her own life - estrangulation by scarf.

@365 - Good memory! I take it you saw the last episode?

Like many viewers, I guess I somehow fell off the Quantum bandwagon. I just read up on things on wikipedia - it was one of those shows that dangled with possible cancellation a few times, and in fact, the last episode was filmed as a season finale that was modified into a series finale.

Man - I would pee my pants if we have an episode where Desmond travels back to the past, finds himself in a comical situation, looks in the mirror, and then says "Oh Boy!". No need to end the episode, a jump to commercial would suffice.....

re: Kate and Aaron

Funny how you can forget things. I forgot that Jack did not deliver Aaron - he was busy trying to save Boone. Kate was the one who delivered Aaron.

Kinda interesting now that we know that Aaron is with Kate in the flash forwards.

Ok, I just rewatched Eggtown and I think that Aaron is Kate and Sawyer's baby, not Claire's Aaron. I think he was named in honor of him. Could be that Kate wasn't lying when she told Sawyer she wasn't pregnant, but maybe they continue to have unprotected sex. That would help to explain why Jack isn't so hot on hanging out with the baby.

@ Claire #354: I like the whole Des package—the outside & the inside. But it's the accent that's the deal clincher. He can call me "brutha" anytime! ; )

@ Randy #356: Loved this line: "I think this damn TV show makes me think way more than any damn TV has a bloody right to, brutha." LOL!

@ Paul Revere #357: It'll be interesting to see if this idea plays out in future episodes.

@ Lost in Baltimore #369: I believe that Evangeline Lilly gave an interview in which she said that her Aaron is Claire's Aaron...although I agree that if Kate's Aaron was Sawyer's child, it would make more sense for Jack to not want to see him than it does for Jack to not want to see Claire's Aaron.

@Lost in Baltimore (Aaron was named in honor of Claire's kid) and

@profpablo last week (Christian is Aaron's father and that's why Jack can't bring himself to see him):

Here's my theory, a bit wacky I'll admit:

In the scene where Kate meets with Ben and emerges shaken up, before she romps with Sawyer aboard the Polar Cage Express, Ben uses Juliet's research to artificially impregnate Kate with Christian as the father, then uses Sawyer as cover for the real father. Maybe even Ben wanted Jack to see that scene on the hidden camera. Either way -- Sawyer as father or Christian as father -- Jack wouldn't want to see Kate's Aaron.

Also, Kate's a liar, so I don't believe her when she tells Sawyer she isn't pregnant.

Finally, I don't think a kid would be considered one of the 6 so I vote Jin and Sun.

I wish we had a fax room here!

Theory Time (no traveling involved....)

Ok, I've been thinking about the big picture and what we are learning could mean...Here goes...

What if Ben and others (not necessarily THE Others, just other people...) have seen the future and the destruction of man-kind (remember the Valentia equation thing...) and what they are doing is a bit like what Des was doing with Charlie: intervening with what is known, but the universe keeps course correcting.

What it would mean is that, for example, Ben knows partly what is going to happen but he's looking out for the course corrections to intervene before THE event that brings on the end of the world.

Maybe the crash of 815 was one of these course corrections. With this theory the interventions don't bring in a new timeline they just change HOW we're going to end up at the end of the world and maybe delay it (as per Charlie's demise, it wasn't avoided, just delayed).

So maybe these are the people on Ben's list and that Sayid is killing . Maybe there deaths delay the ultimate from happening and give a litttle more time to humanity....

Not perfect but hey, that's what's fun about all this

LoL!!!!

Locke, Jack, and Kate are arguing about who will carry the dynamite. Jack asks Hurley if he wants in, and Hurley, with a great look of disgust says, "You got some Arzt on you" while pointing to Jacks back.

So funny!

I love reading Shikotee's posts. It is almost like I'm Desmond going back in time. I kinda remember it, but it's a little fuzzy.

PS - I read that the cow Frank Lapidus say is named Svetlana...which of course means nothing.

Just rewatched the SriLanka video (yeah I know Valenzetti and not Valentia) and also fits with my theory.

Oh yeah, noticed something else, maybe coincidence, maybe not.

You know the Oceanic six thing...there's also six numbers (4-8-15-16-23-42) Maybe each one of the six represents one of the numbers in the equation.

They numbers are the constant in the equation....change one of the numbers....save the world....Maybe saving the world in this case means indefinatley causing course corrections so we never reach that fatal day...

Hummmmm.....

@375/Red...Neck...Man "I read that the cow Frank Lapidus saw is named Svetlana...which of course means nothing."

Ok, RNM, I'm sure that this was a total setup but I'll bite...

Lava Nets (Grey dust to keep Jacob in)
Nasal Vet (Ben?)
Naval Set (Boats?)
Teal Vans (Dharma Van)
Steal Van (Hurley steals teal van)
Stale Van (as in Stale /Beer/ Van)
Anal Vest (I'm not touching this one)
Anal Vets (This one either)

Ok...

I have a general airline question...

When Locke is waiting to board 815, they tell him they can't find the special chair to bring him on board, and two people carry him to his seat before anyone boards.

So - Do they then expect him to remain in his seat for the entire flight to LA? What if he has to go to the washroom? It is a long flight (I've done it myself).

How do airlines handle passengers with such mobility disabilities? Do they have an internal wheel chair on board the plane? I don't think I've ever seen anyone with a leg disability on a flight, so I am just curious.

Hmmmm...great theories all, but correct me if I'm wrong...I'm not really sure...I think I remember...or do I?...yes, I think I do...

...that the producers confirmed that Kate's Aaron is Claire's Aaron and that nothing happened on the beach between Ben and Kate except what was shown during the episode.

But I could be wrong. Sure, they could change their minds and say that Ben knocked up Kate and that Kate's Aaron is Kate and Sawyer's kid. But if they do, I'll eat my hat and yours too!

It is fun to throw these theories around though. My latest is that Vincent dug up Paolikki in the nick of time, Paolo is Ben's man on the boat, Nikki is the one who stole Aaron and gave him to Kate to raise off the island, and tall Walt is Smokey who is also Jacob.

And my ultimate favorite theory (drum roll please):

It will be revealed that Aaron's Australian bio-daddy (Claire's ex-boyfriend) is the son of Jack's mother due to a teenage fling she had with Kate's army-daddy. Therefore, Aaron is Jack AND Kate's 1/2 nephew.

Why not?????

Well, Locke keeps repeating...we were brought here to the island...for a purpose.

Could it be?...for a potty break?

@378/ shikotee "How do airlines handle passengers with such mobility disabilities? Do they have an internal wheel chair on board the plane? I don't think I've ever seen anyone with a leg disability on a flight, so I am just curious."

If you get the right airline and if the person really needs to go, they arrange a mid-air flight break up so that the person in need can be stranded on a mysterious island that will heal them thus allowing them to go as needed and without assistance.

Oops! I just inadvertantly disclosed the true mystery of Lost - and without a Spoiler warning. Dang! Sorry.

Oh well, now that the cat is out of the bag...

The same service can be obtained by:

- Convicts hoping to escape the law
- Doctors in need of things to fix
- Millionaires that want to get away from their money
- Couples with marital problems
- Fathers that need their son to trust them

and, of course...

- High school students wanting to get rid of know-it-all science professors

Y'olde Exodus...

So yeah - I've wrapped up season 1 just now. As mentioned - all sorts of different things to think of this time round.

It was interesting to watch, knowing what we do about certain characters. Locke most especially. Inherently, he wants to help, but he just can't resist his instinct and curiosity. It bugged me then, and it still bugs me - I just don't understand why he dropped off Boone's body and disappeared.

Thus far, the island communicated to Locke via a dream. He saw Eko's bro's plane crash, and then saw a future bloodied version of Boone muttering "Teresa goes up the stairs, Teresa goes down the stairs". Boone later explains that when he was 6, he had a servant, who fell and killed herself.

So - we know that Desmond can travel in time, though he seemingly is not in control of this. Based on what happened to Locke, someone or something does have control of gaining info from past and future, and is able to relay that info into Locke's mind. Is this the work of Jacob?

I have to wonder - is it the island than that gives Locke his obi-wan-esque insight towards the inner demons of his fellow survivors? He does help many resolve/cope with various different issues/problems (Charlie vs Heroin, Boone vs Shannon obsession, Shannon vs Boone's approval, Michael vs Walt, Claire vs feeling preggies and useless, etc).

I forgot how well they rounded out the season at the end, with the flashbacks of everyone of importance to date and how they boarded 815. In particular, it emphasized that although they were strangers on 815, through their experiences together on the island, they had really developed a strong bond...

-354 Claire: Des has a mind?? I hadn't noticed.

-340 & -377 bcre8ve: Joey and the moo point. Your Svetlana anagrams. LOL

-343 bunnylover: I said it a couple weeks ago and I'll say it again: We need more cowbell!

-359 cristos: I thought the name Southfield's was simply a version of Sotheby's....the famous auction house. But then I decided to google Southfield's and found: "The main residential area of Southfields is "The Grid". "The Grid" is a series of parallel roads that are crossed at right angles by a series of parallel streets - so named because of the grid layout of the streets." I'm sure it means nothing. Or everything. This is, after all, LOST.

-379 joepike: Speaking of Paulikki: someone previously mentioned the diamonds that are buried w/them. Somehow, that surely has to be addressed, no?

- Everything posted by Shikotee. You constantly amaze.

Am I the first (sorry Meg) to start the countdown this week?

#335: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
(Except when Bill Clinton has it...)

I KNEW Ethan lost a wife/child since that would be the only motivation for him to 'fix' the pregnancy problem.

As much as I love my Ethan, Des is so freakin' hot....

Pardon the interruption: I accidentally left the water running in my sink and it inexplicably overflowed instead of draining. When I went to look, there was Cindy's scarf stuck in the drain. And then it hit me: Maybe it's Ben's secret plan to conceive a lovechild between Cindy's scarf and Jacob's cat in RNM's fax room...and he would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids.

And let me guess....the catscarf offspring will have downs syndrome? Catscarf may be the name of catbarf's first born son too.

Something doesnt add up for me...When Desmond has the "side effects" from his trip off the island his consciousness travels back in time to 1996 and he forgets everything about the present day. This much we know.

So...isn't it strange that Minkowski, who is experiencing similar (if not the same) side effects from his trip to/frm the island, doesn't appear to have any memory loss??? We know this b/c he tells Desmond and Sayid that he is Minkowski, the communications officer and about Penny's calls, etc. Now, if Minkowski is experiencing similar time warping, why does he have full recollection of present-day events???

BOOM.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

I'm pretty sure Minkowski, Naomi, and Mikhail are playing twister in the mess hall. Swab the deck matees!!

I'm pretty sure Minkowski, Naomi, and Mikhail are playing twister in the mess hall. Swab the deck matees!!

@BunnyLover/342
“Does anyone have any theories about the two bunny #15's showing up simultaneously in the film? If it is only ‘mind travel’ how come the two bunnies are at the same place/time? Wouldn't there little bunny bodies be involved?”

Had to think hard about this one ... As I “think” I understand things in the Lost universe, the following are (probably) true:

(1) There is a wormhole leading to the island created by a Kerr-Newman (charged/rotating) black hole. Such a black hole will have a region between its outer event horizon and inner Cauchy horizon which can be traversed and exited (i.e., and not get sucked into the singularity). Such a traversal can theoretically allow for paths along closed timelike curves, allowing (from an outside observer’s point of view) the traveler to go instantly between two points in spacetime (i.e., a wormhole).

(2) The Cauchy horizon has been stabilized via use of the Casimir effect, allowing practical use of the wormhole. Knowing the geometry of the horizons, one can predict an exact course through the wormhole to end up in the desired location/time. A slight deviation from the intended course will result in the travelers ending up not quite where they wanted (both in location and/or time).

(3) Locke destabilized the Cauchy horizon (starting the implosion of the island into the black hole), and Desmond restored stability with the fail-safe key. However, the geometry of the horizons was altered a bit in the process. This is why Faraday noted it wasn’t good that his rocket took longer than expected to reach the island (the course was no longer exactly correct), as did the chopper flight back to the freighter (which Faraday anticipated, but didn’t know exactly when they would show up, because he didn’t have a chance to reestablish the horizon geometry).

This makes sense to me so far, but then things get weird(er). Apparently, Desmond’s exposure to high levels of radiation somehow altered his wormhole traversal (localized disruption of Casimir effect?) such that he is experiencing “incomplete” traversal events. My speculation is that old/new Desmond swap places consciously during those events ... new Desmond is unconscious, and goes back in time to occupy old Desmond’s body (when he blacks out in the past), and simultaneously old Desmond’s consciousness (or soul or whatever, but awake) occupies Desmond’s body in the future (which freaks him the hell out). Establishing “the constant” either stops this process, or allows it continue without leading to insanity/death.

That leads us to the bunnies. In this case, bunny #15 from the future was inadvertently sent back in time to the moment of the orchid video taping. The general chaos that ensued was due to uncertainty about the effect of this happening, Novikov Principle or not (better not to test it). Why the f-up with sending bunny #15 back to the wrong time? Maybe this happened at the precise moment Ben was wiping out the Dharma people and a dying scientist collapsed on the “Send” button with the wrong coordinates (?).

The greater puzzle to me is: how the hell did Faraday send Eloise into the future without a black hole?

i predict Nadia killing Sayid right after they went to a JERRY springershow..entitled i cheated my Iraqi girlfriend with mysteryisland bimbos....

I am really surprised that the scene with Ben and Kate at the Beach eating breakfast was "nothing". There is so much information to relay in this show, why would they waste an entire scene that didn't advance the story or provide "clues" for future episodes?

And...since we are in between episodes, I think it would be interesting to find out how Mac manages to watch this show and take notes and come up with Macisms and post a summary that makes sense when the episodes are soooo complicated.

@ealgumby/390

Thank you so much for the explanation of simultaneous bunny appearances.

However, in reading your post, my mind exploded and now there's blood all over my keyboard and monitor. I'm off to RNM's fax room to find Cindy's scarf so I can clean it up.

(No really, I think I actually understood it... now THAT'S scary...)

i just want to say that i love this blog and look forward to reading everyone's comments everyday.

this is my first post since the constant aired because everyone pretty much mentioned or discussed what was on my mind and kudos to the ones trying to help us of lesser intelligence understand time travel, time paradoxes and everything else that goes along with it. :)

even though sayid is my man, des and jin are hotties as well.....

my only question is why is charlotte so negative?? every since her cover was revealed she has been nothing but negative. maybe juilet needs to open up a can of whoop a$$ on her to settle her down. :)

peace&love to all.

I have always torn my hair out over time travel stories. I've actually lost sleep at night before trying to figure out how John Connor can send his own father back through time so he can be conceived! If you really want to make your head hurt--try watching all three Terminator movies and the new Sarah Connor series and try to get it to all make sense somehow.
Guess what? It won't.
The paradoxes created on Lost aren't so bad compared to ones I've seen in other shows/movies. As long as the show/movie is as internally consistent as possible, I try not to worry about tidbits and whys and wherefores and just try to enjoy the ride as a whole.
If I can enjoy all the incarnations of the Terminator despite all the paradoxes, I think I can enjoy me some Lost without getting too hung up about it.
BTW--I claim Laffo as my constant!

....has anyone ever considered that the reason desmond was affected by the slight veer of course is because he was the only one running naked through the jungle after the sky turned purple?? anyone.........., anyone............

@RNM/388
"I'm pretty sure Minkowski, Naomi, and Mikhail are playing twister in the mess hall. Swab the deck matees!!"

Can I play too? I once won a "naked twister" contest at the (now defunct) WHFS studio outside of DC for sold out concert tickets. Naked twister with Naomi, yes ... Minkowski and Mikhail, not so much.

@ sav/#391: Are you from Atlanta? Horns?

@387. Posted by: JP

I'm not certain why you would think that a side effect would have to be exactly the same for Desmond and Mankowski. Why should it be? They both have different minds and different experiences.

Just because Desmond goes back to 1996, does not necessarily mean Mankowski goes back to 1996. Maybe it is 1994 for Mankowski (which would explain the 1994 slip up during the podcast).

It could have something to do with a difference the entry point of the island area, or perhaps the fact that Desmond came from the air, and Mankowski was on water.

For now, the fact that it is not entirely consistent demonstrates how dangerous of a process this time travel thing is. In time, I'm sure we will learn more.

-392 Rudy: Mac has Flash-Forwards. He's probably almost done writing tomorrow's review as we speak.

-396 Tiffany: Thank you for reminding me about Des running naked. My day is now complete.

okay, so unfortunately I've been extremely busy with testing this week... so i've only got upto comment number 36, which is really pathetic.

i'm going to try to finish them tomorrow... unless i get even more busy.

but the new episode is tomorrow!! AHH.

ok anyway...
_______________________________________

@ Alex (Not Rosseau) - 7
That's a good point. What happened to Naiomi? They haven't acknowledged her. Her dead body would have definitely started some discussion and controversy on the boat when they arrived there.

@ bcre8ve - 9
You're right. There doesn't seem to be a large time difference between the island and the real world.

It would have been weird if nobody even noticed they were gone, or they were only gone for a few days, but that's obviously not the case. They seemed to be gone for as long as the real world missed them.

I think Daniel Faraday was looking for proof that Desmond went to go see him because they didn't know if Desmond was okay. I guess he felt that he writes everything in his journal, so therefore, he would only assume that he'd write something about Desmond in there if Desmond met up with him. I don't think the "past" happened like that in the "past". Desmond went back in the past and made that become the past... if that made sense.

Good observation about Rosseau's Black Rock crew. That's definitely a possibility.

...My English skills are drained... i apologize for the grammatical errors. and if i didn't make any sense.

@ Manny - 10
"This episode introduced the concept of consciousness and body being able to "separate". Do you think Jacob is a conscious that's "lost"?"

... Nice one. Maybe Ben's?

@ Ross - 22
Penny talked to Charlie in the season finale of season 3, "Through the Looking Glass". He died about 10 seconds later.

@ PiecesofArzt - 32
First of all... I LOVE your name... kudos to you! However, I love my name more =D

Anyway, good point about who you think the Oceanic 6 must be, but that wouldn't explain why aaron gets off safely. He as exposed to it on the beach, and there is no possible way he could find a constant. Then again, he wasn't born to long ago so he may not need to. Actually, Eloise wasn't either. AH! I don't know... I seem to be contradicting myself.
________________________________________
wow... i seriously need to keep reading.

TIME TIME TIME... always an issue.... with everything.

@392 Posted by: Rudy

The Ben and Kate beach scene did not mean "nothing" - it just did not mean that Ben secretly impregnated her, etc.

The scene gave us the chance to see Kate in a hottie outfit, and Ben got the opportunity to play mind games and advance his "make Jack jealous" plan. The scene was not a waste at all - it once again demonstrated what a sinister/dangerous creature Ben is.

He gives Kate a taste of civilization and comfort, and then yanks it away from her. All part the master plan of getting her to shag Sawyer.

Ben sure is one %^#$-ed up Cupid!

RE: 379/JoePike
Ah- thanks for the clarification about Aaron being Claire's Aaron according to the producers. I haven't listened to any of the podcasts. I just can't figure out what's up Jack's butt about it.

"Lost" Anagrams:

"Lots" - as in... "Locke blew up lots of things on the island."

"Slot" - as in... "Lost has a new time slot starting in the fall."

This just proves that the writers knew what they were doing all along. [8^)

(I think I have officially hit the doldrums time between episodes.) Is it tomorrow yet?

@ealgumby #390:

Could it be possible that the electromagnetic/radiation effects causing the time-flip and the ability to travel "whole body" though a wormhole be mutually exclusive? Perhaps Dharma was exploring the "whole body" time travel and stumbled upon the time-flip side effect in their research?

Ben and his comrades may have recognized the advantages of the time-flip (particularly if they can control it) over the alternative and are using it as the means to the ends - which apparently includes murdering wealthy Italians on golf courses.

Pure speculation, but I think there is more to the Orchid story as you and BunnyLover allude to.

Random Desmond thought...

I gotta wonder what Desmond's sleep schedule was like after his solo experience in the Swan. For 45 days, he would have to enter the numbers every 108 minutes. When he left the swan for his boat, was he even capable of sleeping for a longer period of time?

I know I would be a mess....

@shikotee/406

Yeah, he’d be a mess ... don’t even know if it’s humanly possible.

It is known that the “natural” human circadian rhythm is closer to 25 hours than the physically imposed 24-hour diurnal cycle (from both experimental evidence, and empirical evidence from among other things, natural sleep schedules of spelunkers under ground for long periods of time). This is often presented as evidence that the normal 24-hour day is unnatural, leads to brain usage inefficiency, and could probably be replaced with something better if we were not constrained by the rising and setting of the sun. Aha, many say, we are no longer slaves to the sun, what with the introduction of electricity and all! These people frequently point to urban myths about the supposed benefits of operating on a “catnap,” or polyphasic, sleep schedule (i.e., sleep a little every few hours, for a total of 3-4 hours per day, rather than one long period of 6-9 hours). Leonardo da Vinci is often attributed to have been a practitioner of this schedule to maximize his “brain” time, but there is no reliable confirmation of this. Regardless, in practice, it has been shown experimentally not to work.

The problem arises primarily from loss of REM sleep, rather than strict accumulation of total sleep deprivation, although that takes it toll eventually as well. Out of necessity, the military will sometimes impose temporary use of polyphasic sleep schedules, but even in those cases, they try to ensure the requisite time is allocated to allow REM sleep and avoid total sleep deprivation. Long-term maintenance of sleep schedules that do not adhere to those restrictions are not possible.

In short, if he didn’t die, at the very least Desmond would’ve been functionally worthless, and probably insane. For him to even remember the numbers and enter them on time would’ve been damned near superhuman.

Getting stranded with the manly men of ‘Lost’:
Jack, Locke, Sawyer, Sayid, Ben, Hurley? Which one has the island advantage?

http://www*msnbc*msn*com/id/23451954/

The author didn't include Desmond in her analysis, as she wants to keep him for herself.

All y'all best quit mackin on my man.

@407. Posted by: ealgumby

Lol! I was going to mention the Everyman sleep schedule, but then I thought that it Desmond did try it, he would be even crazier. The goal for taking something like that would be to be more productive - sleep less, do more. For Desmond, it would provide more time to be alone!

Desmond seems to have a decent "sane" routine, if we consider the s2ep1 montage as customary. He listens to music, makes himself a shake, rides the exercise bike, etc. I never noticed before, but the swan has window blinds with an artificial light - similar in style to the ones used to treat depression.

By the time the losties get into the hatch, there does not appear to be any Dharma bag in a box wine - perhaps Desmond drank it off several times?

Lol - maybe Desmond's time travel is screwy because of his screwed up sleep time cycle?

The tailies are heading to the beach, but Cindy does not appear to have her scarf!

Locke is swaddling Aaron. I hated this story arch. Charlie almost dies by hanging, shoots and kills Ethan, rescues Aaron from Rousseau, and Claire can't cut the guy some slack (or at least give him some nookie). She's cold....

Love these posts. While watching this episode I noticed during the auction scene that someone sitting in the back left row looks a lot like Ben. Anyone else see that? Tivo helps.

This time, I only got up to 61 ish.

This is all I'm planning on doing tomorrow... I have a lot of catching up to do on the posts.

@ JoePike
I don't want to say "I love you" because first of all, that would be just a tad bit creepy, and second of al, it seems evident that I've already found my one and only love, BEN, but uh...

I love you.

Haha, okay. I'll stop. I meant that in a... I admire/envy you kind of way. =D

If I explain why i admire/envy you... it'll go on forever.

BUT... Aaron is NOT one of the six... or should I say "one of the dix" =P

I'm assuming you're a boy. If you were a girl, well... this would all be 4815162342x more awkward than it already is.

You could probably be one of those obese obsessed on the computer and watching TV all day couch potato kind of losers... but that woud also be awkward.

If you are actually one of those kind of people, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, or anyone else's.

Ok, now I'm officially done with my pointless love talk.

ANYWAYYYYY...

oh wait... MAC... I also believe I love you =D haha... but still, my love for you guys are not equal, or even close to my love for BENNNN <333

@ Meg - 39
I don't believe you've even made contact with Mr. Benjamin... So how can he be your constant?

...I have though... We're "involved". (10 Things I Hate about You reference)

sorry...

@ Ronny B - 47
Those episodes already happened. Maybe they credited him for his voice on the SAT phone.

@ petew - 50
What did you want to happen instead of a nose bleed... would you rather have had their face start to peel off completely only leaving flesh and skull left? Ask Jigsaw to help you out with that one... a bit cliche for me.

Nose bleeds are simple, yet they can signify fatalness. (if that's a word)

@ Robert Gale - 51
Robert Gale??? Who the hell is Robert Gale?!?! When has Ben EVER went by the name "Robert Gale????"

It was HENRY Gale.

Let's start calling him ROBERTO!!!...not.

Oh wait... now Omar Adams - 53 said it too... Are you saying that back in the "real world" he goes by the name "Robert Gale"? No, that woudn't make sense.

Anyway... Robert isn't at all as sexy as Henry or Ben. (The name)

@ PiecesofArzt
I still love your name.

I think Mr. Widmore is a genius.

Rich man with a lot of power and connections... he has all three of the only three things you need to be a successful intimidating man...

If no one got that...
Only 3 things you need in life:
1. Money
2. Power
3. Connections.

Obviously 1 leads to 2, and 2 leads to 3. I guess 3 can lead back to 1 as well.

...or maybe that's to be a politician?

I guess I'm getting off-topic now.

Desmond and the 108 minute thing got me back to the satellite angle ... new idea ...

Looked through all active NORAD two-line orbital element sets (which define orbits of all tracked sats), and discovered there is ONLY one (active or inactive) with an orbital period of 108 minutes (a couple dead hamsats, OSCAR-24/30, with periods close, but not close enough) ... TEMPSAT-1, Naval sat launched 13Aug65 from Vandenberg AFB, purpose listed as "surveillance calibration," still listed as active, with an orbital period of 108.0 minutes. Another interesting thing ... VAFB has historically been used only for polar-orbiting sat launches, and lo and behold, TEMPSAT-1 has an orbital inclination of 90.0 degrees, meaning it goes directly over the poles every orbit. In its current orbit, the period is not likely to change much for a very long time (too high for atmospheric drag effects which slowly bring other sats down, like the one the US recently "had" to shoot down ... cough cough).

I mention this because I've had a rethinking of my "Locke disrupted the horizon geometry" theory, but similar. I now believe the 108 minute thing was, as previously suggested, for contact with a polar-orbiting satellite. Specifically with TEMPSAT-1, for calibration (in this case, cal of the Casimir effect generator, for Cauchy horizon stabilization). Now, TEMPSAT-1 is supposedly just a basketball-sized ... well, ball ... used for radar cal, but I'm speculating it was used by Dharma folk somehow to calibrate the entry/exit course from the island. When Locke broke the calibration mechanism, and Desmond activated the fail-safe, the Cauchy horizon was stabilized, but calibration terminated. As such, there has been a slow "drift" over time, which is leading to the "correct" course to/from the island also drifting ... hence the unexpected rocket/chopper time offsets, and Faraday's concern (drifting faster than expected?).

Given enough time lapse, there will no longer be any safe way to get there (at least not without suffering large time/location displacement issues). I think this could be why the issue with the outdated pager arose. This issue must be (?) resolved at some point, since the Oceanic 6 managed to return from the island at a reasonable time ... how remains to be seen.

Okay.....

I have been totally in love with Lost since day one...

I have been totally impressed with mac and this blog since the middle of season two...

I have been lost with Lost since day one...

1. Adam and Eve
2. The Black Rock
3. The dreams and visions
4. The island's healing properties
5. The counter's hieroglyphics
6. Hurley's bird
7. Kate's horse, Jack's dad, and Sawyer's frog
8. The lists
9. The smoke monster
10. The NUMBERS
11. Polar bears
12. Desmonitions
13. Pushing the button
14. The shark
15. The four-toed statue
16. The whispers.............
and now
17. Ealgumby...

dude... you just amaze me with your knowledge...

even though i have no idea what you are saying, i love being 'lost' while reading your posts....

@emmy4hurley/413

Emmy, my love, I'm blushing (although my off-work barfly companions might swear that's impossible). Throw me a few more comps and I met let you in on (censored) pics from my naked twister competition. :)

1stly
SMOKEY
Though I think everyone’s love for smokey grows less and less, especially when it was revealed that he’s just… er… black smoke – [black smoke who could level Eko in a death match!]. But he’s not Godzilla…. (Or, what I thought he would be, the awesome robotic MegaGodzilla). Still, we have to roll with him.

So this episode opens doors to smokey and the island. Aw Smokey…, I miss that little devil and really hope he makes an appearance to at least one of the freighties before the break. I want to see someone scared out there mind again. And to hear that bone chilling roar he makes.

Is he alive? Rather, living. I remember learning in High School there were qualities to see if something is actually, “alive”.

1) living things have highly organized, complex structures
2) living things maintain a chemical composition that is quite different from their surroundings
3) living things have the capacity to take in, transform, and use energy from the environment
4) living things can respond to stimuli
5) living things have the capacity to reproduce themselves
6) living things grow and develop
7) living things are well-suited to their environment

Which of these qualities do you think applies to smokey?
*****************************
2ndly
MAGNETISM
Electro-magnetism, iron, lead, polar, neutral. There’s a lot put in to this. The island is like Texas before we discovered oil there, now it’s been tapped as a source of magnetic goodness that seems to be practically radioactive at this point.

It could be used to heal, as magnets have been proven to do. It could also probably be harnessed as a weapon. I am sure many people have been after this island, both to study and exploit. One of the first known philosophers (though the name escapes me) came up with the Maxim, “everything is water”, which is a bold statement, even to this day. I believe magnetism is a strong factor for the world we live in. Iron in the earth, iron in our body, a strong magnetic pull from the earth. Polarity even goes in to this. Psychologists often talk about polarity, the two hemispheres of the brain and what not. Perhaps the island can polarize human hardwiring in the brain.

Speaking of the word “polar” since reading these posts I have been thinking that the fact that they use “polar” bears is a hint or a connection. Or maybe they are bi-polar bears with huge mood swings. Either way I think the magnetism can polarize moods. That is, magnetize the mind to only be happy/sad, or better yet, good or evil. I think this is a big concern to the others as they know that good people will turn out to be Ghandi on the island, but bad people will turn out to be Hitler. This is why they researched the passengers and determined (from specific factors of their history) who is good and bad – hence the list.

I think Smokey can do the same, but with different methods and possibly different motives.

@ shikotee – RE: Cindy’s Scarf. She’s not wearing it in the episodes you are watching because the scarf flashforwarded in time to my house and I am wearing it… though I am not saying where.

Sorry for the long post, I can’t wait 24 hours and needed to get a Lost fix.

As of this post, last week's episode has one less post than this week's. Considering last week's episode sucked and this most recent one was the best ever, I wanted to be the one to put the most recent over the edge.

I'm just saying...

On top of Old Smokey,
All covered with snow,
I lost my true lover,
And my fifth toe

For courting's a pleasure,
But parting is grief,
When I'm stuck on an island,
Where Locke is the chief

A thief will just rob you,
And take what you crave,
But a poison spider,
Will lead to your grave

The grave will decay you,
And turn you to dust,
Which Charlie were he still here,
Would snort cuz he must

They'll hug you and kiss you,
And tell you more lies,
Like the 3.2 million,
Ben promised to Miles

So come ye young maidens,
And listen to me,
Before they grab your babies,
You best start to flee

For the babies are priceless,
They have no real cost,
But you know that without them,
You'll truly be lost

@bcre8ve/404 - "Slot" - as in... "Lost has a new time slot starting in the fall."

Good, however, the new time slot starts next month - April.

4-5 (76) The Constant

Time and space braided,
Mingled, distorted, poor Des.
Penelope saves.

Cecil, you are the Haiku-god.

→ 417. Scooby-Dude
I actually liked your poem a lot. But you have WAAAAAY too much time on your hands. Now go eat a Scooby snack and keep it up.

→ 411. ilovebenjaminlinusxx
Mac and I fully expect you to change your moniker to "ilovebenjaminlinusjoepikemacxx".

Incidentally, I do sit in front of a PC or the TV for the majority of my day...and am obsessed with Lost. But luckily I've avoided the obese part by hitting the gym 3 times a week and the treadmill on the other 4 days. And chasing after my 8, 7, & 1 year olds.

For some reason this week you lady-posters have been expressing your male cast member hotness opinions quite a bit. I'd like to go on record with saying that Claire does it the most for me (her eyes and her accent...aye yaye yaye!!!)
Honorable mentions (in hotness order) go to Juliet, Cindy's scarf, Kate, Sun, & Penny.

In the dead category, the hotness order goes like this: Shannon, Nikki, Naomi, Cindy, and Ana-Lucia. I'm sure I've forgotten someone (alive or dead), but does it really matter?

How's that for stimulating and intellectual discussion?! Well, one outta 2 'ain't bad.

Man do we need a new episode...

--ealgumby

I really appreciate your post and explanation of th wormholes and satellites, etc...
It makes a lot of sense.
I doubt they will go that deep into detail in trying to explain this stuff on the actual show. It would be difficult for them to convey all that information in a one hour drama and make it interesting. It definitely sounds like your explanation is on the right track however.

@ JoePike #420

Glad to know there are other dads out there obsessed with this show. I have a 4, 2, and 4 months myself. Thank goodness for DVR. I appreciate the divergence form the scientific as well. Here is my 2 cents

Hotness order-

Live: Juliet, Claire, Kate, Penny, Sun

Dead: Shannon, Nikki, The 2 girls in the looking glass station, Naomi, Ana-Lucia

JoePike

yeah... I don't have kids... I think your age and your marital status could be a problem in this relationship.

however, it's not a problem for me and BENjaminnnnn.... <3333 I mean... he's married to his mom...

haha... I'm kidding. well, not really but about the relationship part.

I am obsessed with the show as well... Obviously. All I ever think about in school is lost. I wrote one of my essays inspired for LOST. Lost is my life.

I seriously do love all three of you. Ben, JoePike, and Mac <333

By JoePike
→ 411. ilovebenjaminlinusxx
Mac and I fully expect you to change your moniker to "ilovebenjaminlinusjoepikemacxx".

as for that... I will certainly consider it.
actually, I will scroll up and change my name right now! Is there a limit to characters?

nope, it worked!!! woot woot =D

wow... I feel like a slut.

sorry if that language isn't appropriate.

I HAVE TO FINISH READING POSTS!!!

@JoePike/420

Surely I'm not the only guy here who must lack the "blonds-are-super-hot" gene ... my lists:

Live: Alex, Claire, Sun, Kate, Cindy

Dead: Nikki, Naomi, Ana-Lucia, Libby, Shannon

And finally, unknown live/dead status (and way hottest of the bunch IMO): Nadia

@JoePike/420

Surely I'm not the only guy here who must lack the "blonds-are-super-hot" gene ... my lists:

Live: Alex, Claire, Sun, Kate, Cindy

Dead: Nikki, Naomi, Ana-Lucia, Libby, Shannon

And finally, unknown live/dead status (and way hottest of the bunch IMO): Nadia

Come on guys--Mrs. Klugh was the hottest chick on this show living or dead! (Actually I don't really much remember what she looked like--just want to give some love to some of the women who've not gotten as much attention.

The rest of my list:
The sheriff of Otherville--what was her name again?
Rose (Go Bernard!)
Cindy and her scarf (without it she'd be nuthin' brutha!)
Rousseau (who doesn't love a nice stinky unwashed in 17 some years French chick?)

Seriously though I think I'm missing the blond gene as well. I've never cared much for Juliet, Shannon, or Claire. Kate, Nikki, and Naomi are much more my type.

On a different note--wonder what some of you other folks on the blog look like? We've seen RMN and davidrh. Lat's do a "Which Lost character do you most resemble?" feature.
I'd love to say I look like Sawyer but I'm thinking I'm probably closer to 1996 Daniel.

Guys, don't look at the latest TV Guide (Sayid and Juliet)...you just might change your vote. No superdelegates required!

It's official: we've hit a new low with all this talk of the hotties on the show. I'm sticking with Des, although my first true love was Locke (he's more age-appropriate for me anyway).

Scooby - your poem was awesome.
Ealgumby - your knowledge is impressive.
Cecil - haiku master for sure.

On E! last night, Yunjin Kim (Sun) said we'll know tonight who all the Oceanic Six are. It would be nice to clear up one mystery, so we can concentrate on all the others (other mysteries, as well as other others.)

Crispy, how did I miss "seeing" RNM and davidrh? I've been reading Mac since Day One. That's an interesting suggestion...which LOST character do you most resemble. Must think on that one. (My Sawyer name, BTW, was Tweedle Dee.)

Until tomorrow....

Gentlemen, gentlemen...

(showing my age)

1. Anna Lucia's mom
2. Jack's mom

@Crispy Seaplanes/426
@lovelost/428

My Sawyer name is: Grasshopper

I think I most closely resembled (when I was a bit younger) Karl. Currently, probably not much like any of the cast. Threw a couple somewhat recent pics together (the "NT" link may be a bit sketchy for some, but content has been censored):

tinyurl*com/2qowx3

@ilovebenjaminlinusjoepikemacxx: Any chance you could acronymize that moniker - ASAP - before the Blog starts to tilt? And shouldn't it end with "XXX"?

Speaking for the "lady-posters," I guess it's possible this episode was embedded with subliminal hormone-stimulating messages, but never underestimate the incredible power of a Scottish accent. <@<@

Crispy Seaplanes looks like '96 Des???!!! I seriously need to revise my mental image:

http://tinyurl*com/22dwvq

I would slightly resemble a dark-haired Juliet.

--JT
Not impressed by the tv guide--Elizabeth mitchell just doesn't do it for me>

--lovelost
We saw davidrh and RNM when RNM won the Lost blog best lines trophy (we even saw davidrh's "sister")

--Clementine
Again I wish I could claim looking like 96 Des but the person I probably most resemble is 96 DAN (Faraday)--even though I'm no longer allowed to sport the beard! wifey don't like it!

sometimes I act before I think ...

removed the link to potentially offensive pics from url I posted earlier ... I have to keep reminding myself that my sense of humor is a bit off norm ... sorry

@430 ealgumby posted:

>tinyurl*com/2qowx3

Which one's you? (g)

Favorite "Hottie" List

Has to start with Danielle Rousseau.

What guy doesn't love a rugged, smart gal that "doesn't need a man, until she NEEDS a man!"

Perks include; Empty-nester - hasn't had a kid in the house for years, expert shot and good with dynamite, looks good without make-up or covered in mud, has a place of her own to go to when cuddling is out of the question, can beat up the island bully, exercises regularly, and... french girls will do stuff that american girls think is yucky. 8)

men what to know her,
women want to be her.

@415/Posted by: callaway76 "I remember learning in High School there were qualities to see if something is actually, 'alive'"

You forgot one: "Is it taxed?" If it's alive, a politician somewhere has figured out how to tax it.

@418/Posted by: JT "Good, however, the new time slot starts next month - April."

Which is fall in the southern hemishpere : )

I admit to being technically-challenged when it comes to computers, witness my not being able to view the tinyurls. That term alone cracks me up. Is it tin urls or tiny urls? See what I mean?

A fleeting thought: wouldn't it be kinda fun to have all our pictures somewhere and then try to match them with our LOST names (not our Sawyer names) but the names we use here? Disregard. I'm just in that 6+ hour abyss before the next ep. I think it's called withdrawal.

Just for fun, how many of you live near D.C? I've seen a few references to the area lately.
Man we need a new episode.

@lovelost - Make sure to replace any * with periods after you copy and paste website links to your browser. And it's tiny url - see Mac's "comment warnings" #3 at the bottom of every page for further explanation.

@Crispy - Oh, it's '96 DAN minus the beard! Still didn't jive with my mental image, but I shall make the necessary adjustments.

5 hours 8 minutes and counting...

@lovelost

You can view a group portrait of a number of filmfodder lost bloggers here:

http://www*bcre8ve*com/SomeFilmFodderLostBloggers01.jpg

(For the new people - the blog requires approval from mac to post actual URLs, but we get around that by changing the periods to asterisks - just change all the "*" to "." to view the URL.)

Thinking again about my Lost character I most resemble--not as skinny as Daniel or mousy looking. Bigger schnozola... Maybe it's the long hair thing that sent me in the direction of Mr. Faraday. Probably closer to a less sweaty, less dark, again no beard Sayid.

OK so maybe this Lost character I most resemble thing isn't really the best idea!

Ah yes, bcre8ve has always been very creative. I think green hair looks good on me. Wish I was at the beach right now.

Hey, wonder where our buddy ButchM got to? I miss his random limericks.

OK, Crispy, I cannot morph Dan and Sayid into a coherent mental image of you. And Simpsonized Psycho Crispy. And your MLBFFL hypnotic shades and cape. Nevermind, I'll just stick with the little seaplane pilot in my tiny url posted above. He always makes me smile :)

@ Cecil Rose
omg... I agree with Mac... BEST PORTRAIT EVER.

Obviously you made that... nice!

Mac looks pretty darn good. ;D

Anyway... what would you want it to be... iloveBLJPMacxxx??? still kinda long.

any requests to a name change??? I admit, it's quite long... but the content is important. it has significant sentimental value. =D

So I would say that I look like a REALLY YOUNG version of Naiomi. I don't know though... she's closest... I think.

wow... I feel really young at the moment.

@ Rudy - 439
I'm about 3 hours away.

Ahaha! That is the best portrait ever! C'mon lovebenjaminlinusjoepikemacxxx we need to get ourselves in there...

Just for the record, seeing as I have nothing better to do until 10.30am tomorrow when I can read Mac's Lost (as I live in Scotland and don't get the show 'til SUNDAY GODAMMIT!)I'd say that I looked like Kate, but without the freckles...

The "conscious time travel" story line still does not explain prior mysteries such as:
* how Locke could walk
* how Rose's cancer was cured
* how the 815ers survived the physics (death) of the plane crash
* the errors in Ben's back surgery (wrong x-rays, wrong chart)
* the errors in Kate's trial
* Smokey, Big Walt and the "props" from the characters memories being found on the island
* how people who die on the island come back to life (Patchey's 9 lives; Desmond surviving Hatch implosion/explosion)
* why pregnant women cannot come to term.

I think the time travel story is a only a tangent. I am still looking for a plausible, consistent overall Premise of the show to explain all the plot twists and turns.

Ha ha...I had almost forgotten bcre8ve's group portrait. I especially love my T-shirt. ; )

I'm quite sure I look like one of the LOST extras rather than one of the leads. For the record, brown hair, brown eyes, & my Sawyer nickname (the first generated; I got about six different names by changing one answer each time) is Twiggy. But you can tell who I am in a crowd because I'm the annoying one finding all the grammatical errors on signs & menus & such. ; )

@ilove...etc...xxx: The portrait can be credited to bcre8ve, who rocks the Lost blog house, always. Cecil Rose is our own fount of wisdom and internal "course-corrector." He usually points true North in the storm of commentary and is sometimes successful in bringing us back to task.

You should call yourself whatever you like... don't want to stifle your creativity!

3 hours 17 minutes and counting...

oh so that's an old portrait? so I guess someone should make a new "updated" one haha...

ok so as for a Sawyer nickname... he'd probably call me "Captain Obvious". A phrase I can see him saying to me is "Well thank you Captain Obvious" in that sarcastic tone of his.

I'm still new to this blog -ish... so wait... Cecil Rose is a guy. Okay. Sorry I just needed to say that to myself so I don't imagine a girl talking every time I read your posts.

I still need help with my name!!!

OH and @ welh - 448
We established that Locke can walk again and Rose's cancer is gone because the island was the "point on the earth" that is "right" for them.

I'm referring to why Rose and Bernard went to Australia in the first place. I don't remember completely, but Bernard took Rose to a man that supposedly "cures" or "heals" people. The reason he cures or heals them is because they are on a certain place on the earth that has a certain amount of electromagnatism or something like that... I don't remember... but there are only a few in the world and he told Rose that the one in Australia was "not for her".

Correct me if I got the wording wrong.

And Alaïs_Longthought not only holds us to the King's English, but also provides gentle wit, literary and literate insights, and will man (actually she will woman) the Hot Scots Replicator in my absence.

@AC: If you're a native Scot, perhaps the @@ effect of Desmond's "accent" is Lost on you. I'm guessing the American accent isn't quite as hypnotic?

@iloveallthelostblogmenxxx: What about NaomiXXX? I know that doesn't include the names of all your crushes, but we would secretly know who each X represented. Like an inside joke. That wasn't 30 characters long ;)

Thanks for the tinyurl lesson. Sometimes I need pictures drawn for me.

Great group photo. Just not enough room for all of us. Mac, did you ever dream you would create such a huge extended "family"?

Ok, I could be Shannon's mother (in the who-do-you-look-like game), based on what Shannon looked like, even though her mother (or mutha, as my boy Des would say)has never appeared on the show. I hope that counts.

Speaking of counting, we're almost there.

Thanks Clementine.
I wouldn't mind that name, but it's really far from my current name and also I don't really like Naomi much... though she is the LOST. character I resemble the most.

Thanks fot the idea though.

What does everyone else think? NaomiXXX?

Anyway, I haven't gotten Mac or JoePike's opinions on my love for them.

...I'd like to know what you two are thinking right now. I know Ben loves it. Haha.

Or I could be CaptainObviousXXX
I DON't KNOW!!! Can you see Sawyer saying that??

One last post before showtime... big shout-out to all the Losties who commented on this episode!

lovelost
lostmom
Lost in Baltimore
lostsox
LostinLove
LovemeSomeLost
onelostdude
Hooked on Lost
LostInSpace
LostedIt

Tell a loyal lurker please: is Richard one of the original Others--maybe from when the Black Rock was shipwrecked? I remember how he looked when he saw young Ben in the woods when Dharma was still in residence.
Also why doesn't Penny shake down her Dad for some info about Desmond? She knows he hates Desmond.
Gwen

Yes, the portrait's entirely BCRE8VE's doing, I just pointed to it.

As for real life:
I resemble an older Hurley with shorter hair. Sawyer name "haus" (how did he know?)

Constant Haiku (cont.)

Next Episode Looms,
Fodder Bloggers Losing It,
Team Building Will Fail.

4 minutes until Pop-up-Lost!

I'd love to make another group photo. The problem is that there's not enough room for everybody. Last year I chose the top regular posters (top = those with the most posts - though that wasn't scientific.) Even doing that, I wasn't able to get everyone in that I wanted.

Well, it's about to start. Here's hoping everyone gets Lost tonight!

re: 430/ealgumby

Oh my...

re: 439/Rudy

Ooh! Ooh! Me! I live in the DC area!

Has Mac done his review of tonight's epidode yet?

@Rudy/439
@LIB/460

Live in Columbia, work primarily in Lanham, sometimes Suitland Federal Center

Anyone notice that the alarm on the boat sounds exactly like the alarm when the button wasn't pushed?

I thought this episode was amazing and did contain tremendous information. I was so psyched by it that I had to find a blog and so this is my first read and my first post.

It's interesting how many people get upset over the lack of liner concepts shown in the episode as it relates to time travel etc.

There is so much that we DON'T know about the universe, time, or the full nature of ourselves as humans.....so of course I think that what the writers have come up with far exceeds any entertainment that is out there now....till later tonight..

One last comment on this ep before moving on ... I know that final scene between Des and Pen is supposed to be a tear-jerker, but can't help but weep for personal reasons ... my girlfriend of five years, the true love of my life, was brutally murdered almost a year ago ... can't really talk about the case, cause I've been subpoenaed to testify for the prosecution, and trial has yet to take place ... when I see Des call Pen, I wish I could pick up my phone and call her (still have her number on my cell) ... somehow, magically ... could she answer my call and tell me she loves me and misses me? I do. Where's MY damned time machine ...

Thats a great forum, but it takes forever to read through.

First the Tsunami was in Thailad,Indonesia and the Island is closer to Fiji so it will not hit the Island.

I loved the theory about Rouso being part of the original crew coming from 150-200 years ago - thats funny.

Also think the fact the list of 6 includes everyone who was with Ben on the wharf when Micahel left - sounds reasonable.

As for the whole timetravel thing, well you cant expect lost to explain something that no-one else can explain - like time travel paradox.

I wish at the end of the series they are going to publish a little book that explain everything, or have a 3 hours finale with the timeline and results to everything.

I knew this is going to be a problematic series as soon as I saw how they did not show the monster in the first episode.

And here we are 3+ years later with many more questions.

damn.

re: 465/ealgumby

Really sorry to hear about that. They say it takes at least 2 years to get to the point where you really start to "recover". So...spring of '09 is really looking good for you!

@ Clementine #452: Why, thank you kindly! And of course I'll be more than happy to staff the Hot Scots Replicator when necessary (rubs hands together in glee)... ; )

@ealgumby #465: OMG... When I read your post, my eyeballs simply wouldn't move past it as I tried to figure out what to say. Then I realized that it wouldn't matter what I said because words are totally inadequate. I'm so sorry for your loss. : (

Wow, it's official now, this blog has accumulated more posts in one week than the Random Topic area did in eight months, and more that all but two other episodes (Through the Looking Glass and The Man Behind the Curtain).

---------------

ealgumby, we're so sorry for your loss. We'll pray for strength for you because I know a trial is going to be an ordeal.

No one referenced when Desmond was speaking to Penny and she commented "I know you're alive, your friend Charlie told me..."

what's that all about?

@brad/470

Had to stop and think about that for a minute too ... the obvious answer is when Pen talked to Charlie just before patchy blew the porthole and drowned Charlie (the "Not Penny's Boat" moment) ... OR ... Charlie was somehow rescued, and is still talking to Pen.

In the interest of not creating yet another blog controversy (although probably no one is looking at this anymore), I will go with Occam's Razor and opt for the first, obvious, answer.

@ brad #470 & ealgumby #471: Occam's Razor rules. Here's the transcript (courtesy of Lospedia, who cautions that the transcript may not be exactly correct) of the pertinent part of Through the Looking Glass, when Charlie intercepts Penny's transmission:

CHARLIE: Incoming transmission!
[He quickly presses it, and Penelope Widmore appears on the view-screen]
PENNY: Hello?! Can you hear me?
CHARLIE: Yes, yes I can hear you.
PENNY: Who is this? Who am I speaking to?
CHARLIE: Charlie er... Charlie Pace, I'm a survivor of Flight eight-one-five, Oceanic Flight eight-one-five.
PENNY: Er... where are you?
CHARLIE: We're on an Island, we're alive.
PENNY: An Island!! Well where, what's your location?
CHARLIE: I dunno. Who's this?
PENNY: This is Penelope. Penelope Widmore. How did you get this frequency?
CHARLIE: [Shouts] Desmond? Desmond!
PENNY: Did you just say Desmond?
CHARLIE: Yeah, he's here, he's with me.
PENNY: [Smiles] Is he OK?
CHARLIE: He's brilliant! ...

RNMiL

mac, I know you love it!!

i'm guessing minkowski may come up again