The Lost Blog

Key Points from "Ji Yeon"

Season 4, Episode 7
Episode Air Date: 03/13/08

Point 1
Sun

Jin

Juliet
So here I was thinking this would be a nice, tidy Sun-Jin episode ...

How stupid of me. I forgot that in the new end-date-determined "Lost" universe every episode matters. I gotta hand it to the "Lost" producers. I didn't see this coming at all.

So, let's dive right in to this surprisingly surprising episode.

We encounter a number of important developments on the Sun-Jin front:

  • Juliet tells Sun that her continued presence on the island will end badly ... both for Sun and her baby. According to Juliet's calculations, Sun needs to depart within three weeks if she wants to save the baby and herself.

    Under normal circumstances Sun would undoubtedly heed the advice of her OB/GYN, but seeing as how Jules has a bad track record in the trust department (and seeing as stupid stupid stupid Kate is planting seeds of doubt in Sun's mind), Sun decides that Juliet is full of crap.

    Actually, Sun's BS detector is running at full capacity for most of this episode. She makes it very clear she doesn't trust Juliet and, in another scene, she asks Daniel Faraday if he and the freighter folk are going to rescue the castaways or not (the answer: uhh, probably not ... but maybe!). Sun is now the antithesis of a every other "Lost" character. Has anyone on this show ever been this direct? Next week she'll confront Ben about his bug eyes.

    Anyway ... the Beach Crap Index is way too high for Sun, so she tells Jin they're packing up and moving to the barracks with Locke. Or so she thinks.

    See, Sun underestimated Juliet. She didn't realize that Juliet will do anything to protect a patient ... including going so far as to reveal a horrible, treacherous secret.

    Juliet, in a desperation move, tells Jin about Sun's affair.

    Because I'm an unabashed Juliet apologist, I feel the need to justify her actions. Sun left Jules no other option. A trip to the barracks would seal the fates of Sun and the baby, and dammit, Juliet just can't go through that again. So if a marriage-shattering revelation is the only way to save lives, then so be it. God bless you, Dr. Burke.

  • Jin reacts as you'd expect: he storms off and goes fishing with Bernard. The two row out to Jin's favorite fishing spot (using the stolen Other boat that carried Kate, Sawyer and Karl back to the main island in season three), and Bernard uses this opportunity to wax poetic about marriage and karma and ... oh hell, I don't know what he's talking about. Basically, Bernard says that doing the right thing inevitably pays dividends.

    Apparently, Bernard hasn't watched this show.

  • Bernard's words are Neosporin for Jin's broken heart. When Jin returns to the beach camp later that night, he cooks up a delicious "I forgive you" seafood dinner for Sun. The pairs reconciles and all seems well ...

    But then we come to the flash forward.

Usually, I can watch an episode of "Lost" and get a decent handle on the major plot developments. But this episode's flash-forward threw me into a tailspin. If I miss something -- or if the flash-forward is clearer to everyone else -- please, please share your thoughts in the comments area. I can use the help.

So here's what I think happens:

  • Sun makes it off the island.

  • Sun is pregnant and living in South Korea (I think). She experiences complications early in the episode and is rushed to the hospital. At roughly the same time, Jin receives a call on his cellphone and he darts into a nearby store to buy a baby gift.

    Upon arriving at the hospital, nurses recognize Sun as one of the Oceanic 6. Sun, doesn't have time for autographs because a 7-pound creature is jazzercizing her internal organs.

    A doctor soon tells Sun a C-section is necessary, but Sun insists on waiting for Jin. Then, in one of those "only on TV" moments, the baby begins to emerge on its own and BLAM! out pops a little girl. Mother and daughter are healthy and happy.

    Moments later, Jin rushes into a maternity ward clutching a giant stuffed panda (it's a gift).

    And this is when things get screwy ...

  • Jin isn't there to see Sun. He's not even at the same hospital.

    Jin is working for Paik Automotive. He bought the panda and rushed to the hospital so he could extend best wishes to an important ambassador. And, just to drive home the confusion, Jin later tells a nurse that he's in no rush to have kids because he's only been married for two months.

    WHAT?!

  • In the final moments of the episode, the writers decide that one twist just isn't enough (thanks guys). Hurley travels to South Korea to visit Sun and her new baby (she named her Ji Yeon -- the name Jin wanted). Mother, daughter and Hurley visit a cemetery. They stop and look down at ...

    wait for it ... waaaait for it ... this one is gonna hurt ...

    JIN'S GRAVE!?!

    Sun and Hurley are mourning dead Jin!

    At first I thought this was an elaborate act orchestrated to protect the "live" Jin from media exposure. But that doesn't make sense because the only person Jin and Sun feared was Sun's daddy, not The Media or The World.

    And then I got a good long look at the gravestone. The text is in Korean (translations welcome), but three dates are visible:

    3/20/1980
    11/27/1974
    9/22/2004

    I assume 11/27/1974 is the date of Jin's birth, and we know 9/22/2004 is the day Oceanic 815 went down. But what's the significance of 3/20/1980?

    And, more importantly, how/when did Jin die?

Sidenote 1: (Update 3/14/08): As many have noted, it appears we witnessed our first combined flash-forward (Sun) and flash-back (Jin). The "Year of the Dragon" comment from the shopkeeper and Jin's Mulder-esque cellphone are good clues (until the producers later reveal it was actually a flash-forward with a mistaken shopkeeper and a really old phone ...).

Sidenote 2 (Update 3/14/08): The initial version of this review contained incorrect information. If you're super interested, you can check out the Editor's Note at the end of this review to see what I screwed up and what was deleted.

One nitpick: This is the second time the writers have employed the "drug-addled flash-forward character" device. In "Through the Looking Glass" an intoxicated Jack talks about his Dead Daddy as though he's alive, and in this episode a medicated Sun calls out for Jin during delivery. I hope they don't employ this trick in the future because: 1. it's kinda lame and 2. it gets me every time!

Point 2
Desmond

Sayid
The "Man on the Boat" mystery appears to be solved in the final moments of this episode. In case you hadn't guessed, it's Michael.

Michael is posing as a guy named Kevin Johnson. The how and why surrounding Michael's return will presumably be revealed in next week's Michael-centric episode, but for now we can put to rest the man on the boat theorizing and instead turn our attention to more pressing matters. Like Cindy's scarf.

(Couldn't resist.)

The real revelation in this episode comes from a new character: Captain Gault, supreme commander of the Freighter Folk and Vinnie Jones doppleganger.

Capt. Gault would get along well with Sun because both have a strong command of blunt communication (and both think the name Ji Yeon is really quite pretty).

Mere seconds after Desmond and Sayid meet the captain, Gault tells them Charles Widmore is financing the freighter operation and -- more importantly -- the Oceanic 815 wreckage "discovered" earlier this season was faked.

And here's the kicker: Gault suggests that Ben is behind the fake.

Now, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt because we really have no reason to believe anything Gault or Widmore says. And we know we can't believe anything Ben says, either. Nonetheless, the plot is thickening real good right now.

Beyond Michael and Capt. Gault, there were a few additional freighter moments in this episode:

  • Operating the satellite phone is hazardous to your health. The first operator -- Minkowski -- suffered a time-warp brain implosion and in the early moments of this episode we watch Regina (Operator No. 2) pull a Virginia Woolf (with chains instead of stones ... but same idea).
  • Lapidus takes the helicopter on an errand. Is there a Taco Bell inside the Hydra Station? Where'd he go?
  • Assuming Michael is truly the Man on the Boat, he deserves a gold star from his buggy employer. He ripped out the radio equipment, screwed up the ship's engines, and instigated some sort of "kitchen incident" -- all without getting caught or raising suspicion.

Point 3
Locke Oceanic Six roll call time!

The 9/22/04 date on Jin's gravestone leads me to believe he is not among the Blessed Six. So, that means we only have five confirmed Sixers: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid and Sun.

So who's No. 6?

We've also seen five other islanders in off-island locales: Aaron, Ben, Jin, Michael and Charlie (I know ... Charlie's dead, but he was still "off island"). Walt probably belongs on this list as well, but let's not make assumptions just yet.

The list of characters who haven't appeared in flash forwards is notable, especially since the Oceanic 6 tag doesn't necessarily mean a character doesn't leave the island. The following list is off the top of my head, so let me know if I missed anyone.

Characters we haven't seen off the island:

  • Sawyer
  • Locke
  • Juliet
  • Desmond (the freighter doesn't count)
  • Claire
  • Rose
  • Bernard
  • Vincent
  • Rousseau
  • Alex
  • Karl
  • Cindy

Point 4
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "I need the panda." -- Action Jin to a shopkeeper.
  • Second Best Line: "Where exactly does one come across 324 dead bodies?" -- Capt. Gault, stating his case against Ben.
  • The castaways are getting pretty good with island directions. Kate tells Sun and Jin: "Once you get to the stream, head northwest ... it's pretty much a straight line for a day and a half."

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Editor's Note (3/14/08): This review has been updated to include new information. I removed references to Jin making it off the island because, well, that's probably incorrect. I also deleted a long and useless paragraph that talked about the chronology of flashforwards. Unfortunately, these edits don't mask the fact that I screwed up the backstory/future-flash hook. To that end I offer a hearty "my bad, yo."

Next Episode:
"Meet Kevin Johnson" -- Sayid meets/finds Ben's man on the boat. Airs Thursday, March 20, 2008 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

MIF!! I hope

#1. Posted by: onelostdude at March 14, 2008 12:13 AM

OMG. This episode was WOAH.

I haven't read Mac's write-up yet, so forgive me if I contradict or repeat something he says.

The first thing I thought when I saw Jin and Sun in the so called "flashforward" was, "Wow... JoePike is probably going to eat his (chocolate) hat when this episode is over"

Sorry meg, to rule #1: MIF.
(unless someone else beat me to it)

Alright... so to begin... Is Jin one of the Oceanic 6?

If yes: Then he faked his death or something along those lines and the world doesn't recognize him as alive; also therefore, Aaron is NOT one of the six.

IF no: Then somehow he got off the island, still works for Mr. Paik. Possibly his portion of that was a flashback? (And only the Sun portion was a flashforward?); In that case, Aaron would most likely be one of the Oceanic 6.

Wasn't the year of the dragon like in 2000?

Everyone totally called the Michael thing. Though it was very predictable, the writers decided to keep it that way.

I don't enjoy all the Michael drama. He's annoying... almost as annoying as Jack when he breathes.

...I guess he does beat Jack's breathing.

Juliet is a meanie. But I guess it was for the best. It was just terrible of her to mention the affair.

If Jin's "flashforward/flashback" happened the same time as Sun's... then he's mean.

He looked good... maybe it was his hair?

I have a feeling his part may have been a flashback. It just makes more sense that way... but then again, when has LOST. ever made "sense" the first time around?

The panda would have been cute.

The nurse was annoying...
Nurse #1: Is that --? (in Korean)
Nurse #2: Yes, the Oceanic six! (in Korean)

...or something like that... either way, it was annoying. She's having a baby with potential complications for crying out loud! Who cares if she's a celeberty!

Then again... probably if I was a nurse, and Jamie Lynn Spears came to my hospital to have her baby... I would probably do the same thing that the Korean nurse did to Sun.

So much for seeing Locke's reactoin when he heard Michael was Ben's MOTB.

We didn't see BEN or Sawyer. =(
I don't care much for Sawyer though... he just has a nice "bod". Ben's just hot all over (including face).

I kinda like the Captain. He seems "honest"; he's also kind of cute. (*wink*wink*)

So if the crash was a "surprize" to Ben, then how could he have staged the crash and 374/364 (something like that) dead people?! (Since Desmond thinks he crashed the plane).

Ben somehow got the flight manifest, he got a THUROUGH background on EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, he got two spy's: one to watch the tail section (Goodwin) and one to watch the middle (Ethan), AND on top of ALL OF THIS, he somehow staged a plane crash of 374 casualties. (Did I get the number wrong?).

BOTTOM LINE: Ben is a FLIPPING GENIUS!!!

People I want to be when I grow up:
1. Benjamin Linus - Thought Process; Diabolic Behavior; Genius Sense of...?
2. Jigsaw (SAW) - Genius Serial Killing (without actually ever killing someone)
3. HOUSE. - Personality; Sense of Humor; Sarcasm; Genius

Basically... I would like to be a genius. These happen to be the top three people on my "Genius" list. One of them happens to be the love of my life.

I'll continue more tomorrow.

That's all for now folks! Tune in next time for ilovebenjaminlinusxx only here, on El Blog de Mac.

#2. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 14, 2008 12:13 AM

Hey Mac:

My thought was that Sun's was a flash forward and Jin's was a flashback.

I think Jin is dead. :(
And so I don't know who the six are . . .

#3. Posted by: Redbee at March 14, 2008 12:17 AM

From Lisboa, Portugal, 04h19 am…

Awesome episode. GRAA, Mac.
I just know it is… I didn’t have the time to read it yet…
stopping work, it's review time!
Catching up my breathe… here we go!

#4. Posted by: PreacherOnun at March 14, 2008 12:21 AM

Mr. Naysayer for President 2008

#5. Posted by: Eggo at March 14, 2008 12:22 AM

@mac: Hope this makes sense. Jin flashed-back to his story of delivering the Panda when he worked for Mr. Paik and had only been married to Sun for two months (this was all pre-island). Sun flashed-forward to her delivery sometime after being “rescued” as one of the Oceanic Six. And the 3/20/1980 date is Sun’s birthdate. Many double gravestones have the spouse’s birthdate engraved before their passing. So 11/27/1974 is Jin’s birthdate and 9/22/2004 is his supposed date of death.

Other than that, color me confused (as usual).

The question of the Oceanic Six was to be answered in this episode. Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun and (who?) Is number six Michael or Aaron?

Is Jin dead or back on the island? I’ll say the island, because his gravestone listed his date of death as Sept 22, 2004 (day of the crash). Can anyone translate the other engravings?

Thought the whole episode was a little slow. The result of high expectations, I guess. Des and Sayid, our men of action, seemed to wander about the boat like lost sheep. I thought surely Des would be a little more fired up after his talk with Penny.

And, no surprise, the return of Michael was less than thrilling. Except when Sayid grabbed his hand and gave him the stink-eye. Swab the decks with him, Sayid!

There was speculation that the Six get off the island as part of some deal with the devil. Other than Sun, I can’t guess what would cause the others to leave their friends behind. Does Widmore “rescue” them or does Ben let them go? Does Widmore end up in possession of the island, displacing Benry to his new life as uber-villain veterinarian?

Random thoughts:

Captain Gault is hot. But I promise not to go on about it.

What’s the deal with the lima beans? Do they contain all-natural flavanoids that deter time-travel? Or maybe they have a Prozac additive to promote emotional well-being :)

My office is in an historic building and the pipes make a great banging sound when the heat kicks on. I often imagine there’s a ghost in the furnace room with a ball-pein hammer and bad attitude. Seems like the Kahana has its own ghost. Walt?

Nice to see our own dear Eloise with a walk-on part (ANTR?)

And where does one procure 324 bodies to fake a plane crash? Ben’s been busy.

#6. Posted by: Clementine at March 14, 2008 12:22 AM

Did anyone catch the date on the tombstone? It was 2004 09 22. This is the date that Flight 815 crashed.

Does this mean that Jin was not one of the Oceanic 6? I think he is still on the island. Sun is talking to him like he is still alive....

#7. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 12:23 AM

Okay, for the real post now.

In the flash-forward scenes, we never saw Jin and Sun in the same scene. I think Jin's scene was a flash back to early in their marriage, say year of the dragon, maybe 2000. I think Sun's scenes were a flash forward of off island events. I hope Jin has an honorable death.

#8. Posted by: onelostdude at March 14, 2008 12:23 AM

jin=flash forward. had to be. then again when have i actually been right about this show?
L~

#9. Posted by: Laura at March 14, 2008 12:27 AM

The tombstone reads date of death as 9.22.04, the day of the crash. So we know he didnt die then, and it didnt appear he got of the island with sun, and we know Oceanic 6 are up to their necks in coverups and lies. So I believe jin is alive and on the island, and the O6 have to keep up the pretense that he jin and the others, are dead.

#10. Posted by: debi at March 14, 2008 12:28 AM

Jin's scenes had to have been a flashback. A disappointing contrivance, if so.

#11. Posted by: BadAstronaut at March 14, 2008 12:30 AM

Mac, thanks for the quick turnaround. Never imagined you could include 'Neosporin' in a Lost recap.

I also think that Jin's was a backstory. There is no doubt that the producers were playing with our minds. Have mercy!

#12. Posted by: JT at March 14, 2008 12:35 AM

Ok I lied...
I read the first part of Mac's write-up... I have some stuff to say. Can't sleep now!!!

So uh... I missed being #1 by just a few seconds!!!... Rats.

Going along with my "flashback" theory (the writers just put that part there to confuse us), I think that the 09/22/2004 is the day that he died. They put his "body" in Korea because that's where Sun lives.

Everyone else seems to think he's dead as well... because Sun said that the doctors said that she was "calling for Jin".

I guess JoePike isn't going to need to eat his hat.

I wouldn't mind though... as long as it's chocolate.

SO the ones of the six that we KNOW.
1. Jack
2. Kate
3. Hurley
4. Sayid
5. Sun
6. Aaron? NO.

I agree with what Mac said in the review for the season primere of season 4 ("The Beginning of the End")... He said that he's starting to think that Hurley is going to be one of the more IMPORTANT characters in this.

Hurley has been EVERYWHERE. I believe he's been in everyone's flashforward except for Sayid's in "The Economist".

I must keep reading.

Ok, I have to now.

So "Ben is behind the fake"... But the Captain also said that, "This is ONE of the reasons why we're after Benjamin Linus". (Or something along those lines).

WHAT ARE THE OTHER REASONS?!?

Hey, I'd be after him too... just... not to kill him; or anything of that sort.

PEOPLE THAT WEREN'T ON 815 CAN'T COUNT AS THE O6!!! (Ben, Juliet, Desmond, ETC.)

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but unless they somehow steal someone's identity, change records/pictures, and convince family members of the real people... they wouldn't be able to pull it off.

324... that was the right number. Sorry!

I just noticed I repeated a lot of things that Mac said... Sorry Mac!

I still can't sleep! (Then again, I haven't tried... so... that doesn't really help)

Alright, alright... I'm done! (for now)

#13. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 14, 2008 12:35 AM

The book Regina was trying to read upside down.....

The Survivors of the Chancellor: is an 1875 novel written by Jules Verne about the final voyage of a British sailing vessel, the Chancellor, told from the perspective of one of its passengers in the form of a diary.
(lots of bad stuff happens)

Another title from Jules Verne.....

The Mysterious Island.

#14. Posted by: Debunker at March 14, 2008 12:36 AM

Yikes.....

If Jin is not one of the Oceanic Six, then (gulp), it leaves one spot open.

Ummmmm.... So who has an address for chocolate chapeau?

While I don't like the lack of certainty, I still don't think Aaron is one....

#15. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 12:39 AM

One of the nurses asked Sun if she should contact anyone - her parents or husband. Since we later found out Jin was dead, the nurse should have known that. Obviously the dr did. But I didn't take much notice of the nurses - maybe it was not the one that knew who Sun was.

@Clementine/6: The lima beans remind me of a short story (probably Asimov, but I don't remember) - the AI spaceship realizes it has to cause the temporary death of the astronauts in order to time travel. They must time travel, so the AI copes with the untenable situation by developing a sense of humor - the only foods it stores for the trip are beans & milk.

#16. Posted by: hurling at March 14, 2008 12:41 AM

I strongly disagree with the assertion that Jin flashing back while Sun flashes forward is a "disappionting contrivance." Au contraire. IMO it is a brilliant mind-bending stunner.

#17. Posted by: Steve at March 14, 2008 12:43 AM

LoL

It would be pretty funny if Steve turned out to be one of the Oceanic Six.

They had the gag of Scott and Steve always being mis-identified, and then Scott is killed by Ethan. Steve is referenced in several episodes, but does not appear.

Or maybe it is Frogurt?

This would be a clever way to deceive us all - use one of the background survivors!

#18. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 12:50 AM

Sorry if some of what I say has already been discussed in someone else's post. I'm reading the existing posts but I know how quickly everyone posts this time of night so I expect I'll miss a ton of conversation by the time I post this.

First, Jin's flash definitely appears to be a flashBACK because the year of the dragon was 2000/1 and is not to return again for 12 years (I think). I'm truly confused as to why the writers want to present a flashback and a flashforward like that to purposely confuse everyone. If you're not an avid pause-button/rewind-button/talk on the boards type of person you're going to miss this type of information. To be honest, I cannot even be sure this is truly what is being presented but it seems to be.

Second, Desmond and Sayid get a secret note telling them that they shouldn't trust the captain. But everything he told them seems to be the truth based on everything we know. So at what point should he not be trusted? In a future episode?

Regarding Jin's supposed death, unless the Oceanic Six are under some mistaken impression (one that is perpetuated even further by intermixing of a flashback and a flashforward in this episode) this one seems to be real because of Sun's reaction when seeing the grave.

Regarding the mixing of a flashback and a flashforward, I don't believe they've ever done this before on the show. Is this something we're going to need to keep our eyes out for from now on, wondering all of the time if what we're seeing is the past or the future? I don't think I like this change in pattern one bit.

Regarding Juliet's divulging of Sun's affair, I really am beginning to dislike her as a person to be quite honest. I mean, supposedly she's a good person, that's kind of been established. But what's also been established is her penchance for withholding information unless it needs to be divulged and her use of secrets as a means to justify her ends (or is it vice versa...). She really isn't a character I'm too happy with right now.

Speaking of people I never liked,while I'm sure they've got a good reason to bring Michael back I'm just darn unhappy about his return to the show. My feeling was "good riddance" when he left. Now it's like bringing a little bit of poison back to an otherwise enjoyable show. Sorry, that's just me.

Don't know why I'm feeling so negative about this episode's storyline and results. I'm hoping it will pass. In the meantime, hope everyone's conversation will lighten the mood much more than my post.

#19. Posted by: LostedIt at March 14, 2008 12:51 AM

Overall, I loved the ep, but really wasn't too suprised at how things played out for Jin and Sun. I suppose it was because I've strongly believed that Aaron was one of the Oceani6, that I suspected the Jin sequence was a flashback from the time he bought the 1st Panda. When Dr. Bae stepped in for Dr. Park and the nurse gave Sun the injection, it crossed my mind the Dr. and Nurse were both Others (or the 'real' bad guys) preparing to steal (or substitute) Sun's baby. When that was followed by all the panda-monium surrounding Jin's aforementioned purchase - including the convenient lack of substitute pandas - I connected those dots and finally bought into the idea that it was Jin - and not Aaron - who rounded out the field of 6. I imagine that was the purpose for including that added layer of dramatic tension.

Seeing as I post this what #11 BadAstronaut had to say, I'm glad I'm not alone on this, but I really didn't see how the Jin backstory added to the overall story. If it was solely constructed to serve the purpose of midirection simply to provide another end of story twist, then I'm a little disappointed too. NOT disappointed with the episode, just about that particular storytelling technique.

I'm sure many enjoyed the way it played out as a WTF moment - even mac had Jin's sequence pegged as an off-island flash forward. Although I'm pretty sure that the Jin and Sun stories qualify as two distinct stories and therefore do not break the rule that the off-island stories happen sequentially. As for the value of Jin's story, hopefully I'll see what I missed when I watch again, or catch something from the some of the comments here.

#20. Posted by: vacc at March 14, 2008 12:53 AM

I really thought this episode put end the Oceani6 debate once and for all. It HAS to be Jack, Kate, Hurley Sayid, Aaron, Sun. It was made clear that the last of the 6 would be revealed, which assumes we know who the rest are. I don't believe the LOST creators are trying to keep us guessing on this. If anything, I'm inclined to think they want us to clearly know by now which 6 people the entire world believes survived flight 815.

#21. Posted by: vacc at March 14, 2008 12:55 AM

1) recap forgets to mention the episode (brief flash) of the TV show "Expose" on the TV in Kwons' room.

2) After this episode I really wanted to erase all of my tapes… reboot my PC from scratch and start watching again from S1E1. I am also contemplating a Karl visit to the “Clockwork Orange” room 23 on Hydra Island for a little brainwashing reboot - as good as Ji Yeon was - it was equally as frustrating.

3) My satellite feed contradicted the broadcast feed I first watched. The caption here was "the baby is crowning", as Sun squeezed out Ji Yeon. The Korean station in Hawaii captioned it as "the scarf is crowning"???

#22. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 12:56 AM

F#ckers. Mother f#ckers. They had me going really good and then pulled that rug out. Jin dead? Is Agent Baker dyed? (only 10 months till "24" starts again!).

Upon furthur inspection there was a clue the two flash-forwards weren't in sync. When Sun is in the hospital she tells one of the staff to tell her husband to come to the hospital. But we're led to believe Jin already knows Sun is in labor (or at least in distress). If Jin already knew of his wife's condition (which we presume he does by the conversation with the toy store owner), why would Sun need someone to inform him? There are two possibilities*:

1. Jin's off island sequence is a flashback
2. Jin and Sun have divorced and he's remarried

I'm partial to option 1. The thing that REALLY confused me was why Sun and Hurley go to the cemetary if Jin isn't buried there. I understand that there aren't a lot of options but if Jin were left on the island alive, it wouldn't make much sense to honor him in a place for the dead. Sun could "speak" to Jin pretty much anywhere. The seashore; downtown Seoul; the DMZ. Anywhere but a cemetary. Again, that's presuming he's alive on the island.

*Realistically there are tons of possibilities but my head staying unexploded is more important right now. Speaking of which, is Miles still holding that grenade in his mouth?

#23. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at March 14, 2008 12:57 AM

@19 LostedIT

"Regarding Jin's supposed death"

Oh those clever writers.....

Sun certainly is in grief, but Jin is not dead. She misses her husband, and is faced with the reality that she may never see him again. As she has no way of communicating with Jin, the tombstone is the next best thing.

Also, remember that all members of the Oceanic Six are lying about what really happened. Therefore, Sun must do her best to play the part that she lost her husband when flight 815 crashed. They know people are watching.

Very clever.....

#24. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 1:01 AM

I definitely think Jin's was a flash forward. At first, it seemed like a staged death in the present day, but it makes so much more sense that their 2 storylines took place several years apart. (year of the dragon=good catch!)
So Ben is the one who staged the wreckage? Most likely to keep people from looking for the plane out of fear that they might stumble upon the island in the process. Where did he get the bodies? Perhaps he had some frozen up, saved for a rainy day. Maybe they were left over DHARMA people or perhaps he owns a large concentration camp somewhere.
What doesn't make sense: Ben had access to 324 dead bodies and a used Oceanic jet, yet he didn't have access to any spinal surgeon off the island. DNMFS!

Side note: Sun's OB/GYN was hot! I bet she totally hooks up with him in season 6!

#25. Posted by: Trinity at March 14, 2008 1:01 AM

Mac: “Next week she'll confront Ben about his bug eyes.” - LOL

Jin's «« rewind
Sun's »» forward
Brilliant idea from the producers!

There's only one thing that makes me wonder...
First I thought that Jin was one of the 8 survivers Jack mentioned on Kates's trial. That would make sense in the cover up to explain how Sun got pregnant in the island. But, if that's so, why the 22.09.2004 on his grave?

Ben staging the crash makes sense regarding what he told to Locke about everyone wanting to come to the island. The plane crashed, everyone died, end of discussion... if it wasn't for old Widmore and his will to always get his way!

Ben's the real puppet master.
Widmore it's just greedy.

See ya!

#26. Posted by: PreacherOnun at March 14, 2008 1:02 AM

Jin's scenes were definitely flashbacks (he even mentions he's only been married for 2 months)

As to whether Jin is dead, in the trial Jack mentions that there were 8 that survived the crash and then we have the Oceanic six, so we can maybe assume that the Oceanic six came back with 2 bodies (Jin and Claire maybe?)

Sun's reaction at the grave seems to be real and not something she would do if Jin were still on island (wouldn't she be doing a Penny Whidmore with her dad's fortune to find Jin?)

I think part of the reason the Oceanic 6 are such celebs is that not only were the believed to be dead, they actually found all of the bodies in the plane (324 was correct number I believe). It would be unusualy to find all the bodies of a plane crash and then for 6 survivors to show up.

I still think the other Oceanic six is gonna be Sawyer. With the whole island radiation and leaving causing problems, the only ppl who were not technically on island when the hatch blew were the 5 we've seen and then Jin/Sun/Sawyer (Jin/Sun/Sayid were on the boat at the time were they not, and Jack and gang were on a pier which is on water and not technically the island proper)

Anyway, my ideas :)

#27. Posted by: Ashman at March 14, 2008 1:08 AM

@20 (myself) In hindsight, I realize the whole panda taxi fiasco could actually be a common gimmic used by Korean merchants. What a great con opportunity. They sell something large and expensive to someone who does not appear to have the luxury of comparison shopping, then someone who works for the merchant is paid to steal it. Then the store conveniently has only one and that is pre-sold (The Pandas, after all, is like the Nintendo WII of Korea). This gives them the opportunity to take the desperate sucker for a 600% markup. As an added bonus, they later get to restock the hijacked panda.
BTW, I hope no Koreans or Pandas take offense. This is pure speculation, and not meant to discourage anyone from shopping in Korea.

#28. Posted by: vacc at March 14, 2008 1:09 AM

Okay… what if the “cover story” is true?

8 survived the 815 crash (pacific/indian ocean/wherever).

Kate was the hero. 6 ultimately returned to civilization.

That would explain the “Jin” death after only a few months of marriage…

LOST is about the dreams of the half dozen survivees…

#29. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 1:10 AM

I agree: I think that Jin's was definitely a flashback - he had a pretty old cellphone which was the clue and that Sun's was obviously the flash toward. The headstone had the crash date as date of death which is consistent with the story that Jack told about only 8 surviving the crash with six getting off the island. So it is possible that Jin is still alive.

#30. Posted by: Glenn at March 14, 2008 1:12 AM

I agree with those of you saying that it was a flashback for Jin - makes so much more sense. Presumably they had to put his death date as 22/9/04 the date of the crash in order to back up the lie the Oceanic 6 are telling. This means that either he was left behind on the island, or he dies before the O6 leave the island. I would personally vote for the latter as otherwise why would Hurley and Sun visit a grave when they know he's still alive?

As for the Captain - I was soooo happy to see Grant Bowler. I have loved him since his days on Blue Heelers and then hosting the Aussie version of The Mole and am so happy to see him acting again after his voiceover work for Border Security. And he was looking might fine too! I hope he keeps popping up in future episodes!

#31. Posted by: clazza at March 14, 2008 1:16 AM

@vacc #28: You amuse the heck out me. So last week it was Scarf-gate and this week you're creating Panda-monium?

@Trinity #25: The Lost casting director does a fine, fine job ;)

#32. Posted by: Clementine at March 14, 2008 1:18 AM

Oh boy - that was a great ep. A few things:

- who is good and bad? Widmore good, Ben bad? Both bad? The hot captain - why would he not care that someone hurled herself off the boat in chains?
- Sun/ Jin story made me cry. Theirs is a wonderful love/ loss story woven through the whole series. It's been a wonderful reveal. the flashback/ forward was brilliant.
- Hurley - what's up with Hurley. Is he in a mental hospital? Korea? Hanging with Charlie?
- Aaron was not on the plane when it crahed so he is not one of the Oceanic -- Let's hope Sawyer gets off the Island, cause he's so damn cute....

That's it! Great review Mac.

#33. Posted by: ts at March 14, 2008 1:19 AM

@#23 - Alex (Not Rousseau) "why Sun and Hurley go to the cemetery if Jin isn't buried there."
For one moment - when Sun was telling Jin about the baby - I actually expected the scene to cut to a camera behind Sun, and there would be a video monitor in the headstone, and we would see Jin talking back to her from the Island - then the word LOST. (I thought it would be like when Richard Alpert let Juliet see her sister and niece)

And for that brief moment I thought that would be the coolest thing ever!

#34. Posted by: vacc at March 14, 2008 1:21 AM

Alright, here it goes...try to follow me:

I of course agree that Sun's swoosh is a flash-forward. I strongly do not agree that Jin's is a flash-back.

I believe that Jin's story is happening at the same time as Sun's.

When they get off the island, it's entirely possible that (whether they were on the same helicopter trip or not) Jin has somehow 'jumped' to another timeline. Such as has been noted regarding the year of the dragon, 2000.

We've seen Desmond go all the way back to 1996. Maybe the Jin flash was a simultaneous story of his conciousness being trapped in 2000 because of his exodus from the island. Did he get off the island on the wrong heading, which according to Faraday, could result in 'side effects'?

Some have speculated that Ben has mastered the art of (whatever the hell it is) time jumping. Going in and out of timelines to get cash, get information, steal dead bodies, play backgammon with Chucky Widmore, etc, etc, etc. Maybe the endgame sees Ben realize that Sun's baby, Ji Yeon, will be the first and only child ever born on the island to make it to true civilization....and he intentionally thrusts Jin to another timeline so he cannot interfere with 'whatever' (sorry, running out of ideas).

The only obvious conclusion to this is that Ji Yeon and Aaron will end up dominating the world. The Yin and Yang brought from nowhere, to rule over everywhere. Bad Twins anyone?

So out of breath.....meg, I'm drunk!!!

#35. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 14, 2008 1:41 AM

Good Job, Mac.

Probably there was one detail you all have missed: In the gift shop that Jin bought Panda from, remember the 2nd time, the shop owner recommended Jin a Dinosaur and told him "This is Year of Dragon...".

Well, in Chinese 12 Birth-Year system, the closest year of dragon would be either 2000, or 2012. So, the Jin's part could be more likely a flash-back, telling his story in 2000.

I think these master-minds behind Lost are too damn good for being so knowledgable.

#36. Posted by: Cn_lost at March 14, 2008 1:45 AM

@#23 - Alex (Not Rousseau) : back to your "why Sun and Hurley go to the cemetary if Jin isn't buried there."

For starters, I'm NOT convinced that Jin is dead. As I see it here are the possibilities -

1) Jin is dead and could actually be buried there. As someone speculated earlier, maybe the cover story was that he was one of the 2 that survived the crash but didn't advance to the final 6. Did Jack or anyone else ever specify WHEN the other 2 died? If the tale of the Oceani6 was that Jin's body made it to the Island (alive or dead), it could be exhumed and relocated for someone as rich as Sun's father.

2)Jin is dead and the stone is a monumental. I'm sure that many of the grieving 324 families talk over unoccupied graves. I really don't think that's too strange.

3) Jin is ALIVE, but the world thinks he is dead. In this case Sun, being the celebrity she now is, must publicly keep up the charade. I like this possibility the best.

#37. Posted by: vacc at March 14, 2008 1:47 AM

Here's a cool tip that can help us avoid accidental double-posting without having to wait for the screen to stop clocking.

1)Have this page loaded in two browser windows at the same time. (Or use multiple tabs if your browser supports that)

2)A few seconds after you submit your comments, go to the other browser window and hit "refresh". You'll usually be able to see your comment displayed long before your other window has finished clocking. Once you see your entry is there, you can then safely close the 1st window, hit stop or cancel, or navigate to another page even if it's still clocking.

3) If you have more to say, simply begin typing your next comment in the new window, and by the time you press submit on this entry, you should be able to use the first browser window to see this as well.

#38. Posted by: vacc at March 14, 2008 2:03 AM

Jin = flashback.

1. Jin's phone was circa 2000
2. Jin's attitude was pre-island. Post island Jin wouldn't threaten to hunt down and kill someone.

#39. Posted by: theoldred at March 14, 2008 2:05 AM

I bet Jin had a déjà vu moment during Sun's "I swear it's your baby" speech. It was season one for us, but only a month ago on the island when sun gave her "I swear I haven't been with anyone else" speech.
I admit that at the time, I gave Sun the benefit of the doubt, and missed a golden opportunity to ask if she could get her famous Hawaiian grandfather to sign my "Tiny Bubbles" album.
I'm not saying forgiveness is a terrible thing, but if I were Jin when Sun said "it was a long time ago".. I'd have to consult Faraday. How long ago could it have been if she thought the baby could be Jae's?

Sorry Jin, but I just wouldn't buy it. Then again, I don't suppose I'd pay 1,000 Korean Geoffrey Bucks over retail for a plush furry toy either.

#40. Posted by: vacc at March 14, 2008 2:28 AM

I'm surprised that there is all this debate about whether Jin's sequences were flashbacks - they obviously were.

The phone was the dead give away, and the year of the dragon was a clear hint. But most of all, I suspected something was amiss by the fact that Jin was not with Sun from the get-go.

Old Jin would let something get in between, but not New English speaking Jin.

The episode was deliberately set up to mislead the viewer on so many different levels, which is no doubt going to make a lot of people confused and upset with this episode. Jin is not time traveling.

Sun asking for her husband (and then mentioning at the grave that she *forgot* he was *gone*) while at the hospital was similar to drunken drugged up Jack mentioning his father (to make the viewer think it was a flashback) in the S3 finale.

Sun's dialogue is very clever - it can easily fit both Jin being dead and Jin being stuck on the island.

Curious - where was mama and papa Paik? I found it strange that neither would be with Sun at the hospital, especially in light of the fact that Jin is missing.

re: Sun's Pregnancy

So now we know that a woman that is impregnated on the island can successfully deliver off the island. Knowing that the Others had the ability to leave the island, why would they not take the pregnant women off island to deliver instead of letting them die?

re: Kevin

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!!!"

#41. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 2:43 AM

I think some of us are being a little to strict with the naming of a group of celebrities. The Oceanic 6 would be the name the media gave them. I don't think the media would sit around and say that the baby didn't actually have a ticket, so let's think of something else. Even if there were one person that had nothing to do with the plane, say Desmond, my bet is they would still go with the name.

Michael, however, isn't one of the six since he is now Kevin Johnson. By the way, does that name match at all with the person in the coffin?

#42. Posted by: Not an Other at March 14, 2008 2:43 AM

If we are to believe that Jin is dead, then the reason we got flashbacks with his subplot in tonight's story is because he *has* no future off of the island. Which is bad news for Jules, the only other character to have flashbacks rather than flashforwards this season. (I'm discounting Desmond's time-trippy weirdness as an outlier)

#43. Posted by: marissa at March 14, 2008 2:45 AM

Jin had a flashback, Sun a flashforward.
Jin didn't make it off the island alive. Sun did.
That's what I understood.

#44. Posted by: EAP at March 14, 2008 3:10 AM

Wow, mac, you basically need a WHOLE NEW POST.


THIS WAS A FLASH BACK/FORWARD EPISODE!

JIN=FLASHBACK
SUN=FLASHFORWARD

NGRAN=NOT GREAT REVIEW AS NEVER


Looking forward to when you fix this so I can say GRAAA (Great Review As Almost Always) mac!

#45. Posted by: Dan at March 14, 2008 3:16 AM

I don't thing Aaron is one of the Oceanic 6, because he wasn't an actual passenger when the plane took off.

#46. Posted by: Lisa at March 14, 2008 3:17 AM


When Jin purchased the 1st Panda, Jin said something about being in China...or the clerk said it. I know heard a reference to China.

#47. Posted by: amelia at March 14, 2008 3:36 AM

ok just to clarify the oceanic six are most likeley people who are on the planes boarding list so it cant be
Aaron
Juliet
Desmond (the freighter doesn't count)
Rousseau
Alex
Karl
or any of the others, frieght passengers or any thing like that so were pretty much lookin at
Sawyer
Locke
Claire
Rose
Bernard
Vincent

i really cant think of much more I personally have ruled out claire just because of he fact that kate has her son, rose and bernard aren't that big of characters on the show so i really dont think its one of them, vincents a dog. so my money is either on Locke or Sawyer. I dunno correct me if im wrong, its only a assumption.

#48. Posted by: The_Distress_Signal at March 14, 2008 3:45 AM

I think Jin's scenes were flashbacks, and Sun's were flash-forwards. After they got married Jin started to do Sun’s dad’s bidding. Kissing but to corporate big-wigs was part of that job. At first I thought Jin was there to kill the big-wig and was one of Ben’s spies in the future, but I believe the “I have only been married 6 months” line. I think things are as straight forward as that. When they reveal something they do it.

Jin is not one of the Oceanic 6. In the lie that only 8 survived the crash and 6 got off the island includes that Jin died in the crash. All those who died on Sept 22, 2004 had to have had funerals on the mainland and some gravestones put up on their behalf even without bodies being available. Sun covers that lie by erecting this stone, but to her the baby is the most important thing. The birthdate on the left is obviously Sun’s. She wants to burried next to Jin’s “grave,” but she knows he died on the island. She knows (at this point) she cannot go back to the island, so this is her tribute. Later all (or most) of the SIX will unite and go back to the island.

Jin will die, heroically probably, soon on the island. The Oceanic 6’s, 6th "survivor" will be Aaron. Probably part of the lie is that Claire dies. Fulfilling Charlie's destiny, Claire will be on that helicopter, but since she was exposed to too much magnetism, she suffers the bloody-nose-time-shift phenomena and will die. (I assume you all know that all of the Oceanic 6 were not on the beach when the hatch blew up. The hatch is close to the beach and only those would be “exposed” to “this disease.”) Desmond had the most exposure, that why it was so easy for him to suffer the effects. The 7 of 8 (Borg reference apply applied)--- no 8th of 8 is unknown.

Walt and the future “Kevin” will be shown to make it to a “civilized” island, but Walt will be kidnapped again. He is told he must not tell anyone about the crash and that he must complete a mission. The well dressed and rich/ powerful man sitting in the shadows will be revealed as Ben!
Ben is again very rich and powerful with means off the island (see below). He will protect the island against Witmore at all costs. What a billion can do? (He has $50 B) This includes HIM getting a 777 and putting it in the Indian Ocean with 300 or so dead bodies.

#49. Posted by: Bus Smith at March 14, 2008 5:45 AM

The Autobiography of Ben Linus:

Introduction

You may not know it but I am one of the richest and most powerful men in the world. I am responsible for some well known, but also less well known technologies---some for military use. I believe I am one of the “good guys,” but I am also a liar, thief, and murderer. I have most importantly dedicated my life to saving the most remnarkab;e place in the world--- MY Island. I am also saving the last of an ancient and special race of people who are now safe in their Temple. It was all worth it, and I am determined to continue to fight those who want to destroy my true family.

It started when my father got a job on a beautiful island in the pacific. But at first it was not beautiful to me. My father taunted me--- not only blaming me for the death of my mother while she gave me birth, but also simply that he hated me (and himself) his entire life. I ended that life. It never occurred to me that I could be so powerful, but on the island anything can happen. I once left our protected cottages at a young age. . . and I actually saw my dead mother. She appeared to me and spoke to me. Was it a spirit, a ghost? Or was it an energy left by her in my body that manifested itself in front of me. Was I just crazy? These questions would soon no longer concern me as I would have a new purpose in life. When my mother appeared is when I realized the island was special, and that gradually, I learned that perhaps I was special too. I had found beauty.

I was soon befriended by an ancient race of miraculous people that have been on the island for thousands of years. They were quite interested that someone new to the island could feel its special affects. They adopted me and became my real family. They even accepted me with all of my faults. Believe it or not, some of those ancient people did not seem to age. But I did. The Ancients, as I call them, would never suffer from disease, and if they did get hurt their wounds would heal tremendously fast. I later would find that I would not be the only newcomer to the island with special gifts or what I would call that “special connection” to the island. One man was a paraplegic and the instant he hit (literally hit) the island, he could walk. One could see the future. There was a boy who could be in more than one place at a time. So many fantastic stories.

I will explain in future chapters how I took part in a movement that killed hundreds of the members of the DHARMA initiative, a subsidiary of a multi-national anti-moral economic machine that continues to be my sworn enemy---This was run by Charles Witmore. There was a reason I kill and still kill. DHARMA’s evil scientists studied these strange natives with these great powers like RATS. When there was some resistance, DHARMA conspired to murder all of them because of their own paranoid fears. I would not let that happen. I will further explain how I used what I basically stole to become the billionaire I am today. I used and continue to use the influence of wealth to not only protect what I have, but also my true family on the island. Oh, I have my problems, and all families have problems. I am selfish and really like to get my way. I’m greedy, but I don’t want others to see it. I do seek things sexual, but only on my private trips to Thailand. And I really hate it when strangers get in the way.

Is it technology governing the islands or the spirits—God--faith? Is it natural forces governing the islands or the spirits—God--faith? Were these “effects” created by DHARMA themselves? My belief, and it’s just a belief, is that the nature of the island gave man a way to use parts of his mind he never thought possible. Shoot, maybe the island itself is alive? In any case it is quite amazing because even the mind or spirit or energy of the dead can be alive on that island. Am I the crazy one? No. I have known many natives with amazing and intensely diverse powers. A bit of it was given to me and I am truly thankful. Whether it was really my mother or not did not matter because she gave me something my father never could, to feel loved by a new family.

DHARMA studied these phenomena, but I took it away from them--- I took their technology, what they discovered and thus, my money stems from them. I made it so no one but myself or my friends could come and go from the island. I tried to make it so the Ancients would never be bothered again. I tried to create a utopian society working on saving mankind. I wanted to help the infertile have children, so many things I’ve done and tried to do, but alas, there seems to be another mystery with the island. It not only can hide, but in can GRAB things. Boats, helicopters, planes--- once caught up in these strange forces, they crash here. Some live through it.

I am determined to keep the Ancients alive, to keep DHARMA away from the island. I am willing to die for it--- and kill for it. I am one of the good guys, after all.

Chapter One . . .

This show is great! Keep it up.

#50. Posted by: Bus Smith at March 14, 2008 5:51 AM

Yes, Jin was not recognized as "famous"--- he is not one of the SIX--- all of the SIX are very recognizable. Proof his was a flashback.

#51. Posted by: Bud Smith at March 14, 2008 6:26 AM

The guy at the toy store tells Jin, and I quote verbatim, "In the year of the dragon, it brings good luck"--the Year of the Dragon is 2000

A flashback!

#52. Posted by: Bud Smith at March 14, 2008 6:32 AM

I think the gravestone was erected by Jin's/Sun's families as they were lead to believe everyone on the plane was killed, thus the birthdates of Jin and Sun both on the gravestone. There would only be one date of death as they were both thought to have died on the date of the crash. The gravestone was already there when Sun left the island. There are probably a lot of gravstones that have been placed for the presumed dead.

#53. Posted by: Cissy at March 14, 2008 7:03 AM

Ahhh...a flashforward and flashback episode. Those Lost writers are brilliant bastards!

Okay, the big debate. The Oceanic Six. Please remember everyone, before Aaron was revealed as being with Kate, ABC was running promos telling us, we'd be getting a new answer to who the 6 were that week.

Aaron was introduced that week, therefore he was one of the 6. Like it or not, we have to trust the promos to an extent don't we? For those of you who still say he wasn't, please tell me who else was revealed that week as clearly being off the island. Someone had to be or ABC was outright lying to millions of people.

Second time we've seen a cell phone used to date an off island sequence. Remember Jack's first flashforward?

I saw Mac and some others referenced Ben having something to do with the staged crash. Did I miss something? I never saw anything in the show that led me to believe outright that Ben was involved.

My interpretation of the Captain's comments about the crash was that Widmore is so intent on finding this island that he was nervous about people searching (and accidentally finding the island) in the island area for 815 so he quelled all searching efforts by creating a fake crash scene. A guy who would do that is pretty intent on his mission. I'd be curious to know if this was anyone else's interpretation.

Last thing...yes, I think Jin died trying to get Sun off the island safely. Again, going by ABC promos, they told us someone was going to die this week didn't they? However, I did like the thought of one of the previous posters about different timelines being created as people go on and off the island. At first, this is what I thought was going on with the Sun/Jin thing.

Looking forward to reading the comments!

Thanks Mac

#54. Posted by: petew at March 14, 2008 7:11 AM

@onelostdude - Can someone else call "MIF" ??? :)

I do believe Jin is dead, that he dies on the island somehow. But, with Lost it's hard to call. In the scenes for next week they make a point of saying someone will die. Then they flash Jin's face...seems a little too predictable. But there again, so was Michael being MOTB

I'm up to post #9 - back to work reading

#55. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 7:51 AM

For a minute there, I thought Sun and Hurley were together. Hurley seemed happy he was the only one who showed up. Really, that other date has to be significant. Maybe when Jun left the island he was going back and forth between being in 1980, and that killed him....but in 1980. Weird, I know...okay, I'm up to #19

#56. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 7:57 AM

Excellent catch for those that mentioned the "Year of the Dragon". That's key to confirm that Jin's panda scenes were a flashback. According to Wikipedia, the most recent year of the dragon were:

# 17 February 1988 - 5 February 1989: Earth Dragon
# 5 February 2000 - 23 January 2001: Metal Dragon

And the next one will be:

# 2012 - 2013: Water Dragon

So, the writers did mess with us and have Sun's scenes as a flash forward and Jin's scenes as a flash back -- all in the same episode. The writers/producers did say that they would not present those flash forward out of sequence, but I don't think that there was ever any mention of having flash backs and flash forwards in the same episode.

Marty.

#57. Posted by: Marty at March 14, 2008 7:57 AM

@ #5 - Eggo - Thanks for the vote! But unfortunately, I have too many skeletons in my closet to take office... I swear I didn't inhale!!

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^

As for this episode - Let me do my job and Nay Say any "Jin is living in a different dimension" theorists... although I wouldn't bet my money on whether he is really dead or really still on the island, I would bet my money on the fact that SUN HAD A FLASHFORWARD and JIN HAD A FLASHBACK - both in the same episode. Good device used by the writers... see comment #41 and also comments that include the fact that the year was the "Dragon."

^*^*^*^*^*^*^**^*^

Was Michael older looking? Grayish hair, wrinkled face? Kinda like how Walt grew and is now "Tall Walt," could Michael have aged as well?

Some stay young - Alpert. Some grow old - Walt, Michael...

Chew on that for awhile...

MR.NAYSAYER

#58. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 14, 2008 8:01 AM

Flashback or Flashforward:

I think the comments about the phone, Year of the Dragon and Jin's general attitude, dress and demeanor make it clear it is a flashback. He was so nonchalant about being a Dad, never would have happened with post-Island Jin.

Jin - Dead or Alive:

I go with dead. No so much because Sun went to his grave, but because Hurley did. If Jin died on the day of the crash, there is no real reason for Hurley to pretend they were close. Hurley came because he wanted to honor his dead friend. Sometime in the next several months of Lost Time, Jin is going to die.

Oceanic Six:

Here, I am flummoxed.

O5= Kate, Jack, Sun, Hurley & Sayid.
O1= ?????? If we only include people away from the hatch, that would mean Aaron could not be O1. Assuming Baby = Immune somehow, he is a possibility.

But the producers say that at the end of the episode the mystery of who the six are would be revealed. The only other people we KNOW that were on the island in "real time" that are off the island in future time are Ben and Aaron. Of the two, I go with Aaron. BUT that brings up the other issue of Jack's testimony - 8 survived, 2 died, Kate saved the other 5. Aaron could not have been one of those . . . But I guess another of the 6 could have died, replaced by Kate. My head hurts.

Michael: The only other new reveal was Michael - and he, and Walt, were away from the hatch when it blew. So other than the promise we would know the O6 by this episode, I would say they are still in play.

Why is Michael Ben's man on the boat? Why would he leave Walt behind in the real world, after all he did to save him? My guess is that Walt is not doing well away from the island and that he is either committed somewhere, or taken by Widmore or other forces, and Ben has convinced Michael that only Ben can save Walt.

Captain Gault:

Do we know his first name yet? Because if it is John we have a whole new set of books to read . . . Who Is John Galt?

#59. Posted by: RedBee at March 14, 2008 8:12 AM

I think it is Walt doing the tapping. What I can't figure out is how Michael went from trying to get to freedom, to being another person on the freighter. Oh, and what a yucky freighter it is. Who would sign up for that job?? With people blowing themselves away and all. What about that new room for Des and Sayid...ick! The captain (yes, very hot Clementine) said that being in such close proximity to the island was making them a little crazy.

The whole Michael thing does bother me. I don't like his face, with that scowl. I don't like his character. Ben obviously did something to manipulate him after he left the island, and I hope we get to see some Michael flashbacks next week (from when he left the island).

#60. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 8:12 AM

I think Jin is alive and well on the island. Sun knows he is alive, and in the heat of things forgets and calls out for him.

Hurley wants to return to the island. And now he's trying to recruit people for a return trip. What better person to start with then someone who left their spouse behind?

#61. Posted by: Wyatt at March 14, 2008 8:19 AM

I agree with everyone that Sun was a flash-forward and Jin was a flash-back. I think maybe the panda might have some significance in the future with Sun and her baby as there was such an emphysis put on that particular stuffed animal. I'm not sure if Jin is really dead, or just could not leave the island with Sun (maybe not enough room and someone had to stay behind). He would certainly insist on his wife and unborn child leave without him rather than miss an opportunity to get off the island. They are certainly being protective of the ones who did stay on the island by letting everyone believe there were no other survivors. I know someone was supposed to "die" in this episode, but do we take that literally. We have found out that things are not always as they seem.

#62. Posted by: Cissy at March 14, 2008 8:27 AM

I am going with the theory that the gravestone is for show, because everyone in the real world is supposed to think Jin died in the crash, and Sun was visiting his grave to be "near" him and she was crying simply because she misses him. The date of death on the stone confirms this. If he got off the island and died, the date would be another one. The part of the show with Jin was a flashBACK to when he was 2 months married (2000, the Year of the Dragon) and confirmed by the old cell phone. It was done to throw us off, like the writers love to do.

#63. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at March 14, 2008 8:28 AM

Jin's was a FlashBACK, Sun's was a FlashFORWARD!! How did anyone miss that one???????

#64. Posted by: R at March 14, 2008 8:28 AM

Lots of thoughts that Mac didn't get to have been brought up on the board. Here's what I thought of in the episode as possibly being significant:

- The book Regina is reading by Jules Verne (had to rewind the TiVo to get the title - The Survivors of the Chancellor)
- TV show playing in Sun's room right before she goes into labor. Again, another person posted the name of the show, but doubt that it's relevant.
- It didn't hit me til the end, but Jin was acting very much like he did before the island. I think the telling parts were his desperation in getting the second panda, as well as telling the taxi-cab stealer he'd kill him, do bad things, etc.
- Speaking of the taxi incident, did anyone, at the time, feel it was important to find out who took the cab and knocked out his cell phone? The guy seemed to be in a big hurry (I know, it's in the city), but it seemed staged for some reason.
- My Lost memory may be WAY off, but IF Ben is behind the plane crash, could he have used the bodies from the Dharma purge when his dad died? Did they get rid of all those bodies, or would they have sufficed as stand ins for the Oceanic "deceased"?
- I've seen this mentioned elsewhere, but when Sun's baby was first handed to her in the hospital, did it look like she had Down's Syndrome? I only ask because I know people have commented that it appears Aaron has Down's. Not sure if this is significant, or if I had that in my head and was just seeing something.

#65. Posted by: erons at March 14, 2008 8:32 AM

Was anyone else annoyed at the whole comical aspect of Jin's flash (back/forward...I'm not calling it yet)?

I have to admit that this episode was not one of my favorites. It was the first time I felt a bit disappointed...there, I've said it.

@RNM - Sober for six days now.....but tonight is going to be another story!! I'll meet you halfway across Alligator Alley for a drink...:)

#66. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 8:34 AM

And I thought the Oceanic Six were set now, but this may be less clear cut??

Jack
Kate
Hurley
Sayid
Aaron (?)
Sun

But hey, maybe I'm lost too...

#67. Posted by: R at March 14, 2008 8:35 AM

Great Blog Mac, Confusing episode, I cant figure out Flash back, or Flash foward... Year of dragon was 2000 but they are Japanese aren't they? Yikes Someone figure this out and explain to me please!

#68. Posted by: Jenny Talia at March 14, 2008 8:51 AM

Good point, they are Japanese, that means Jin is living in China.

#69. Posted by: Richmond KOOMBBSS at March 14, 2008 8:55 AM

Favorite Mac line: - Next week she'll confront Ben about his bug eyes.

Conspiracy Theories:

@Vacc #20 – Dr. and Nurse both Others? I wondered the exact same thing.

@Vacc #28 – Panda taxi fiasco was a con. Yes! And the whole bumping into Jin and stealing his taxi reminded me of Desmond on the army base as he's approaching the pay phone and gets jostled.

@Red...Neck...Man #36 – Ji Yeon and Aaron dominating the world. I'll buy that. Ben's biggest problem (besides the tumor and bug-eyes) is kids can't be conceived on the island, so the only way he can replenish his army of good (evil?) is to get them birthed off the island then bring 'em back later.

Ben having the flight manifest and dossiers on all the passengers = in cahoots with Oceanic Airlines.

#70. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 14, 2008 8:56 AM

I think they were Korean!

KONNICHIWA

#71. Posted by: China Boy at March 14, 2008 9:00 AM

One other point in this episode that I hope is further explored has to do with the boat drifting towards the island. If they don't get those engines fixed, then there's going to be a good story revolving around the boat, and the people on it.

I'm looking forward to the Podcasts on this episode. Hopefully the Producers will clarify a few issues for us.

#72. Posted by: petew at March 14, 2008 9:02 AM

I’m still not sure how I feel about this episode, besides confused.
I think, for some as yet unknown reason, Jin needs to appear to be dead. Perhaps he made a deal with whoever is making these things happen so he could save Sun.
My impression of Jin’s flash was that it was forward. My immediate impression was that he is searching to find out when/if Sun has given birth. It seemed to me that when he heard it was a boy, he lost interest. It’s possible he knows the sex of the child. Maybe he isn’t working for Paik at all, just using that as an in to the hospital. As a flashback, I don’t see the significance of it in the whole scheme of things, and given that they have a limited (and pre-determined)amount of time to tell this story in, why would they waste it on a flashback just to bend our minds? Married 2 months – maybe this is part of the cover-up. I did miss the part about the year of the dragon, but still think this was a flash forward. Sun asking for her husband during the birth may have been the truth coming out, and her subsequent “I forgot you were gone” was an explanation to anyone who may overhear it for what she said. And why, when Sun told Hurley that no one else was coming, did he say “good”?
I believe that all of the O-6 would have been on the manifest. That rules out anyone who was already on the island and Aaron. What if Michael is # 6? We were told that the final 2 would be revealed in this episode. No one else was conclusively revealed besides Sun. None of the other possibilities were even in this episode. I so wanted it to be Sawyer!
I guess my question about Ben and all the bodies is how the heck did he get them all there? And where did he get the fake plane? How do you plant a large plane and that many bodies without anyone being aware if it?

#73. Posted by: dharma queen at March 14, 2008 9:02 AM

I don't have time to read every blog entry, so I'll just post my thoughts and then try to read them all before next week!

Sun's were flash forwards.
Jin's were flashbacks.

I say this because it was once since that 8 survived the crash, but only 6 came home. Thus alowing for the theory that Jin was one of the 8, allowing for the conception timeline, but somehow he did not make it on to the rescue vehicle to bring the Oceanic Siz back. Who is the other one of the 8 that did not survive? My guess, Claire.

Thus explaining why Kate has Aaron.

I think Aaron might be the 6th member. I can see how he might not be since he wasn't "born" yet, but he was ready to come out and he did survive.

Apparently turning over Jack, Sawyer, Kate, and Hurley was only part of Michael's deal with Ben. Living on a boat under a new identity was the other. But where is Walt?

I thought it was a great episode. I think Benard's Karma speech was foreshadowing. For those that strive to do good, doos will eventually come. (Jack always striving to help and get everyone rescued, and he eventually gets off the island.) And for those who commit acts of immoral behavior, more doom will come. (I love the Locke character, but he just seems to be getting deeper and deeper into a downhill spiral. He gets more confused with every tidbit of info Ben feeds him.)

Great epsisode, and thanks Mac for taking the time to put the tidbits n order, I know that time is of the essence in our lives. Well done.

#74. Posted by: David at March 14, 2008 9:04 AM

Are they North or South Koreans? Is Kim Il Jung behind any of this? I hear
he's a big fan of the show.

#75. Posted by: Jenny Talia at March 14, 2008 9:05 AM

Are they North or South Koreans? Is Kim Il Jung behind any of this? I hear
he's a big fan of the show.

#76. Posted by: Jenny Talia at March 14, 2008 9:05 AM

Jin definitely = flashback (phone, year of the dragon, looks younger, more eager demeanor)
Jin is in CHINA--a panda is the mascot of China, hence the stuffed panda being "very popular". For those of you whose geographical knowledge is lacking, China isn't that far from Korea, and Jin and Sun are KOREAN (not Japanese). Jin mentions that the Korean Mr. Paik is proud to do business with the Chinese business associate who just had a grandchild that Jin brought the stuffed panda to.
Sun = flash forward. I also wonder why her father wasn't there.
I believe Jin is alive on the island and Hurley/Sun have to keep up the pretense that he is dead.
It may have been gimmicky, but I totally loved the way this episode messed with my head.
Maybe the freighties' mental issues are a shout-out to Stephen King's "The Shining" ("All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.")

#77. Posted by: Kathy at March 14, 2008 9:05 AM

Are they North or South Koreans? Is Kim Il Jung behind any of this? I hear he's a big fan of the show.

#78. Posted by: Jenny Talia at March 14, 2008 9:06 AM

Thanks for all the help guys!

Re: the flash-forward/flash-back thing ... while I certainly think all signs are pointing to Jin's segment as a flashback, I'm still not entirely sold on it. RNM brings up an interesting point about Jin potentially jumping around the timeline, just as Desmond did. As we've seen, the time issues seem to impact people in different ways (at this point, we've seen Desmond and Minkowski shuffle around the space-time continuum, and it looks like Regina and Brandon were doing the same thing).

I *think* Jin's sequence was a strict flashback, but given what we've seen this season, I'm not entirely sure that's the case.

I'll also admit I was fooled during the episode!

* And just a note regarding weird-looking kids: there are a lot of them, and they tend to look really weird when they first wake up and, most notably, when they're first born. I really, truly don't think the "Lost" crew would introduce Downs as a plot device.

#79. Posted by: mac at March 14, 2008 9:07 AM

I don't want this to take off in an entirely new direction, but I feel compelled to say that I would imagine most parents of children with Downs sydrome think their babies are beautiful and not weird looking.
I also agree with Mac that the writers would not use this as a plot device.

#80. Posted by: kathy at March 14, 2008 9:13 AM

I wonder who blew their brains out in the room that Sayid and Des will be staying?

#81. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at March 14, 2008 9:15 AM

(00)(00)(00)(00)(00)(00)(00)

If last week this forum dwelled on that friggin' scarf with hundreds of nonfunny quips and puns... it looks as if this one is headed towards PANDA jokes already - i.e. "panda-moan-ium" etc... I'm bracing myself already, yet probably too early.

(long exasparated sigh...)

Mr.Naysayer

#82. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 14, 2008 9:19 AM

It was also pretty interesting how Bernard referred to himself as on of the "good guys". Any significance there?

#83. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 9:24 AM

I guess you could say Jin "scarfed up that panda". This show confuses the heck outa me, meanwhile i got people here not working and discussing the show! Go on ready and pick up a ticket!

#84. Posted by: Defranco at March 14, 2008 9:25 AM

#42:
I was wondering the same thing so I went back to look at the newspaper clipping, and the name is something that starts with Jo--- and the last name ends with --atham so it can't be Kevin Johnson, but maybe he has another alias??

#85. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at March 14, 2008 9:26 AM

I've seen it posted on other forums (can't take credit for it), that the show Sun was watching right before she went into labor was "Expose" starring Nikki of the infamous "Paulikki" duo. Thought that was interesting.

#86. Posted by: erons at March 14, 2008 9:28 AM

@83 meg and 74 David

Yes, you guys are right on about Bernards Karma speech. His statement about Locke being a murderer and not one of the good guys was I think a big message from the writers to us.

Also, I see lots of folks getting hung up on the 8 vs. 6 thing. Didn't the producers in a recent podcast say don't worry about the 2 who died as they weren't relevant to the story?

#87. Posted by: petew at March 14, 2008 9:29 AM

2000 was the most recent Year of the Dragon in Asian culture

2005 was the year of the Rooster

I think this confirms the fact that in last night's ep. the Jin/Panda/hospital visit was a flashBACK to his early days of marriage and work with mob boss Mr Paik. The Sun/hospital/baby and graveside visit were flashFORWARDS to after-island life.

I predict that next week Jin will be killed (sorry bud) and that Sun makes it a point to create a grave in his memory once she leaves the island.

#88. Posted by: GatorGal at March 14, 2008 9:30 AM

There you go again Naysayer. You are one sly dude, attempting to usurp the blog. I for one refuse to participate in such silliness this early on, except for the occasional MIF reference.

I started watching the enhanced episodes, and whoever it was who mentioned it last week is right. Those episodes do answer many questions. One from last week was touched upon, but I can't put my finger on it right now...what it was. I do remember wanting to log on and add it to the blog, but thought no one would be looking at that page this late in the game.

#89. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 9:30 AM

The panda was for the Chinese ambasador in Korea, Jin said the car company wants to do business there. I have never seen such sloppy viewing in all my years.

#90. Posted by: Never Seen So Many People Clueless at March 14, 2008 9:33 AM

The panda was for the Chinese ambasador in Korea, Jin said the car company wants to do business there.
The promotions said a person would be revealed in Kate's episode, the only new person revealed was Aaron. Last night the 6th person was revealed, so we know all 6 now.

I have never seen such sloppy viewing in all my years.

#91. Posted by: Never Seen So Many People Clueless at March 14, 2008 9:34 AM

Im so confuseddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#92. Posted by: Angela at March 14, 2008 9:34 AM

I thought it was clear as hell that Jin's was a FB and Sun's was a FF. And I've yet to see or read anything to convince me otherwise.

My only question was did Jin make it off the island, and I think the dates on the tombstone put that one to bed. He did not.

I believe Jin's Panda Adventure was due to the fact that the Chinese Ambassador was becoming a grandfather, and Mr. Paik sent Jin to do some royal sucking up as evidenced by his low bowing and eyes to the floor.

Interspersing these scenes with Jin's proclaiming to Sun that he used to be a different person only illustrated his point.

And yeah, who blew their brains out in Des and Sayid's spacious new accommodations? Cabin fever my ass...

#93. Posted by: Randy at March 14, 2008 9:38 AM

Mac - Great recap !

Great episode ! I'm convinced we watched a combo flashback-forward. That really messed with my head. Right up until Jin made the comment to the nurse about only having been married for two months. Then I said "WHOA" and it hit me like a ton of bricks. The writers really threw us a curve ball with that one.

I don't know if anyone above posted a translation of what was written in Korean on the headstone, but if there is a translation I'd love to know what it said. The dates are intriguing, but until there's a translation of the text we won't know for sure why 9/22/2004 is referenced. Until then I'm gonna hold to Jin being #6 of the Oceanic 6.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this in a previous post (I haven't had a chance to go through them all yet), but did Michael look 'older' when he came out of the shadows for the big reveal? I thought he did and then it hit me - I flashed back (whoosh sound and all) to the end of season 2, when Ben let Michael and Walt go he gave them a heading that was 5 degrees off of the one that Daniel told Frank he had to stay on to avoid side affects. Is it possible that Ben's coordinates sent Michael and Walt a few years into the past? It would explain Walt's unexpected growth spurt when he re-appeared as TGW. It would also explain how Michael was able to be recruited by Ben, create a false identity and become a part of the freighter crew. He probably wouldn't have been able to do that in less than 2 months unless he was sent to the past. And lastly it would explain how Michael and Walt could return to the 'real world' and not be considered part of the Oceanic 6. I'm sure my theory is full of more holes than swiss cheese - countless paradox issues.

That's all I got.

#94. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at March 14, 2008 9:38 AM

Looking forward to hearing more about the BLACKBOX and what is being said on it - the whole crashed/fake plane is a cool storyline - where the dead people come from, etc...

Also - did or didn't Michael (Kevin Johnson) look extremely old and weathered? Possible fast aging like Walt? Anyone... anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

#95. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 14, 2008 9:41 AM

According to the pop-ups on last night's rebroadcast of "The Other Woman" it IS Annie that Harper was referring to when she told Juliet "You look just like her."

Also....why the heck has Sayid or Desmond not asked someone when they are going back to rescue their friends left on the beach? I mean seriously, why have they not inquired about a plan when it has been several days! They haven't even asked Lipidus, have they?

#96. Posted by: GatorGal at March 14, 2008 9:42 AM

OK, being that nothing on this show is to be taken for granted and everything means something, then maybe the show Expose playing in Sun's room was a hint to the viewers that Jin's not really dead (like Paulikki)

#97. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at March 14, 2008 9:43 AM

And speaking of nothing being done for no reason on this show...in the enhanced pop-ups of last weeks show, the writers made a POINT of telling us that Goodwin's last name was Stanhope. Anyone know any connections to that name?
I can't believe there aren't any Korean Lost fans out there!!! If there are, will you PLEASE translate the writing on the headstone!?!?

#98. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at March 14, 2008 9:49 AM

I’m kind of disappointed. All that time on the freighter & still no mention of Naomi! I keep waiting for her to pop out from under that blanket & say, “Who’s a girl got to sleep with to get some breakfast around here?”

I hope we get some Regina flashbacks so we can find out why she was so hell bent on turning herself into Dharma shark food.

I did catch the Eloise cameo. I thought she looked pretty good as a brunette.

But seriously, I agree that all indications are that Jin’s story was a flashback BUT did I see some grey hair around his temples? That would make him older than he was on the island.

With all the conspiracy & cover up involved, can we be sure that only 6 made it off the island? What if there are other 815ers who made it off but are being coerced/blackmailed
To remain silent & just fade away?

#99. Posted by: cookie at March 14, 2008 9:55 AM

My two cents:

I agree w/those who think Jin's was Flash-back, definitely.

Also, Jin said he would do whatever it takes to get Sun off the island, whether that means he died getting her off or if he had to stay behind I don't know.

As far as the promo saying someone would die, well, the woman who jumped of the ship in chains meets that criteria - even though she wasn't one of our characters.

And, my thoughts on the Oceanic 6:

Definites: Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sun. They've all been noted for their celebrity.

Possible: Aaron and Sayid. Aaron possible rather than definite because as everyone mentions he wasn't born til after the flight. And Sayid, possible, and this may open a can of worms, but what if he isn't officially off the island. We know he works for Ben after the island and we know Ben is able to get people on and off the island quietly. So what if Sayid is, officially, one of the victims of 815 - not one of the survivors.

Although, the promos did say we'd know the 6, and I don't see that we've been shown any other possibilities at this point.

Anyway, I thought the episode was fantastic!

#100. Posted by: What happened to Claire? at March 14, 2008 9:57 AM

Sun-forward, Jin-back!

Who is #6? (Who is Number One? YOU ARE Number 6!) Let's look at my post from "The Constant" #32. Non-magnetized people, and at the time unknown O6's were Sawyer, Sun, Jin, Michael, and Walt. Sun has made it off the bubble since then. With the people left Jin is considered dead and explaining Too Tall Walt to the public would be difficult (9 inches in 3 months? that's a heckuva growth spurt)

My guess is Sawyer. He would be the one Kate has to 'get back to' and would keep Jack from wanting to visit the Happy Home. Why does Jack not want to go see Aaron? Because it NOT Turniphead Aaron. It is Skate Lovechild Aaron. (Collect them all!) Jack can't handle that Kate is lied to Sawyer in Bensylvania about being pregnant but she fears having the child on the island because of the killer baby syndrome.

Here's how I predict it will come down: They are about to leave the island and Jin is going with Sun but Kate reveals that she is pregnant and has to get off the island. Jin and Sun have a heart wrenching decision but Jin decides to be gallant and allow Kate to leave instead of him. This would explain why Sun was hysterically calling for Jin. She knows he is still alive. Why did Sawyer get to go???????

#101. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at March 14, 2008 10:00 AM

I think everyone who is questioning if Aaron in one of the 6 should just for a minute step back and think of this from the world's point of view versus the Lost point of view. If a plane crashed and everyone was thought to be dead and then a boat shows up with survivors, there are going to be group pictures taken of the 6 survivors, right? And if one is a baby, he is going to be counted as #6. The media at large does NOT care who was on the manifest or not. I can picture a front page news photo of our 5 adults and 1 baby and a headline saying: "6 survivors found from Oceanic 815." The media would not discount a baby, come ON. In fact, it would be a big story that a baby survived. And the promos did tell us we'd meet the last member of Oceanic 6.

I am definitely on the Jin had a flashback boat. Very manipulative and tricky! Whether he is alive on the island or not is another thing I have no opinion on yet--definitely not enough info. But I thought the episode made it very clear that Jin was a changed man, and if anyone thinks he would go back to Korea and then within 6 months have divorced Sun, gotten remarried and be working for the mob again??? Tell me how that makes sense in your little brain.

I was interested that via Juliet we got our timeline--sometime in the next 3 weeks to a month of Island Time our 6 will need to get off or else Sun will start down the road to death (the first week was just constant nausea, said Juliet, so I extended our time to a month). So the next 2 1/2 years of episodes should be taking only a month up of Island Time.

And what's with someone always suggesting the kids look like they have Down Syndrome? Someone said that about Aaron, too. You guys must not see that many babies/kids!

#102. Posted by: Noelle at March 14, 2008 10:02 AM

Enjoyed your review a lot Mac, as always. ("Next week she'll confront Ben about his bug eyes." HA!)

I totally started eating my hat early in the episode! Thinking Sun & Jin were in a common flash-forward, so that they were numbers 5 & 6. Then when I realized Jin's was a flashback (old phone, year of the dragon, threatening to kill cab stealer, married two months...) I felt totally vindicated and got to stop hat-munching. Especially when they showed his gravestone dod as the date of the plane crash. Leads me to believe he never got off the island.

I don't believe they're doing any time-shifting with Jin...I think the writers just wanted to keep us on our 4-toes by mixing the flash-back with the flash-forward. Those clevuh bahstids.

I do think that Jin is dead though...Sun's speech and emotions really point that way, and I don't think they would've visited the grave site if both Hurley and Sun knew Jin was (potentially) still alive. Nobody was watching them, no media was around, so they didn't have to go to the cemetery to put on a show.

→ 33. ts
- Aaron was not on the plane when it crahed so he is not one of the Oceanic --
Yes, he was on the plane. He was in Claire's belly. Are you trying to say Claire's uterus was not on the plane either???

→ 46. Lisa
I don't thing Aaron is one of the Oceanic 6, because he wasn't an actual passenger when the plane took off.

Okay, that's true, but he ended up on the island because of the plane crash, and since he's off the island now with Kate (a confirmed O6'er), that leads me to believe he was rescued with her, so he's one of the celebrity 6.

Most downs-babies are really cute, and Ji Yean was adorable...but neither Aaron nor Ji Yeon have it. Never even crossed my mind when Sun first held her. I agree with Mac that this would be a poor plot device to introduce, and hopefully we can put this theory to bed now.

The Michael-reveal was pretty anti-climactic for me, but maybe average-Joe Lost watcher was shocked. I hope Sayid really makes Michael tell the whole story next week...and it's not dragged out any longer.

Still keeping my hats and choco-hats handy until next week...but I think I'll still be hungry!!!

#103. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 10:03 AM

Unfortunately I had too much free time yesterday and I spoiled myself before last night's episode. BUT I will say that it helped while watching the episode to catch things (meanwhile my 12 year old son was going WHAAA????)

Have a few questions regardless

Are we to infer from the captain's comment (where would someone get 324 dead bodies) that Ben used the "Purge" remains, but didn't Ben show Locke a mass grave last season, but didn't one of those people have a gun shot wound on the skeleton? nose bleed time

I really didn't like that Korean doctor, no bed side manner, I thought for sure he was a "plant" to do harm

What did it mean that the delivery was hard on Sun, were there still island after effect complications?

Why have Hurley come to Korea to visit the grave with Sun, do they really think they are being that closely watched? Seems lame.

I agree that Jin is still alive (Sun says "I miss you so much"), good writing)

Whats up with the Lima Beans, gotta mean something!

#104. Posted by: Rudy at March 14, 2008 10:07 AM

I think the main reason Hurley visited Sun was to see the baby, and he went with her to the cemetery as a bonus.

#105. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at March 14, 2008 10:19 AM

→ 102. Noelle

GREAT GREAT GREAT post Noelle, the most clear and perfect first paragraph in the history of this blog. The rest was good too.

→ 101. PiecesofArzt

Sorry PoA, but I think you're totally wrong. The one Kate had to get back to was confirmed to be Aaron. And Kate's Aaron is Claire's Aaron, as confirmed by the producers...who also confirmed Sayid is definitely one of the Oceanic 6. He even mentioned it to that dude on the golf course before he blew him away, and the dude then seemed to recognize Sayid. Kate really is not preggo either. It's great to theorize and speculate...but I just think you're a bit off this time.

Believe me I'll admit I'm wrong and apologize if anything you wrote somehow ends up being true!


#106. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 10:24 AM

Does "pop-up Lost" bother anyone else?

It seems unfair somehow that facts will be put out that you don't get unless you are willing to watch the repeat.

Amazing shift on this episode, with the use of foward and backward on the flashes. I'm picturing an eventual episode where this starts happening for multiple characters, and will require a copy of the script to track it all.

Brilliant writing though.

Btw, as far as the helicopter goes... it is on it's way back to the island, but it won't arrive until tomorrow night. Just in time for episode 8. :)

#107. Posted by: The Duf at March 14, 2008 10:26 AM

Two random "morning after" thoughts:

(1) Perhaps Harold Perrineau isn't playing Michael but rather a grown-up version of Walt. How freaky would that be?

(2) Maybe Regina plummeted to her watery death b/c she was distraught over her dead lover...Naomi. Remember Naomi's bracelet engraved with "I'll always be with you. RG" Could that RG be Regina perhaps?

I love this show...and the fact that it is a huge distraction from work. Which I simply must get back to!

#108. Posted by: GatorGal at March 14, 2008 10:28 AM

Good not great episode. Desmond's time-jumping still reigns supreme.

To settle the whole flashback/forward thing: in one of the recent enhanced episodes, the pop-up video wannabes made a point about how you can tell a forward from a backward. It has to do with the "whooshing" noise. If I recall correctly, and I probably don't, forwards have them AFTER the scene and then "whoosh" we go "back" to the present. Flashbacks are the opposite, they have the noise before the scene. I think. Or, forwards dont have the noise at all? Anyways, when you re-watch it, look for any differences in the whoosh noises, and that will tell us if it is a flashback for Jin, forward for Sun.

I agree with whoever brought it up before. WTF is going on with Naomi? They havent even showed the crew taking her body off the 'copter or anything. Although, clearly, this crew has a serious lack of respect for the dead... I'm a big Naomi conspiracy theorist. We havent seen the last of her. She is far too bad ass.

In last night's enhanced episode, the pop-up vidoes reference the survivors Ben is interested in, and how they are on a list that JACOB gave to him. Did we already know this? If not, then it seems plausible the O6 were determined by Jacob for some higher purpose... right?

@ petew -- The captain of the freighter could have been implying, when he asked "who has all the resources to do this" (Crash the fake plane, fill it with bodies etc.) that Widmore actually had all the resources, and was THAT intent on getting to Ben that he would arrange all of that. Then again, Ben could have had some leftover purgees to use as body doubles... but there seemed to be an awful lot of bodies still on the island from the purge, stored in the pit of despair where Ben left Locke to die....

@erons -- i agree, it did seem planned that the guy was supposed to knock the phone out of Jin's hand. It could have been enemies of Paik.

The writers are clearly setting us up for at least one, probably more, showdowns.

So far we have been introduced to two very wealthy, unscrupulous, power-hungry families with significant ties to the island. the Paik's and Widmore's. Are they in it together against Ben, or are they actually against each other, and Ben works for one of them???

Locke vs. Jack -- clearly, Locke is kind of a bad dude, but loves the island. Jack isnt as much of a bad dude (though he would have killed Locke, through no fault of his own), and honestly tries to help everyone.. sometimes to a fault. And Jacob has eyes on both of them.

So we've got Ben vs. Widmore, potentially Widmore vs. Paik, potentially Ben vs. Widmore/Paik supercombo, Jack vs. Locke, Kate vs. Juliet, and somewhere I'm sure, Joe vs. the Volcano.

As a side note, I hate Juliet and her whorish mouth. But, I gotta say, shes been looking pretty fly the past couple episodes...

thats what I got.

xo
-chopkins

#109. Posted by: chopkins at March 14, 2008 10:29 AM

Even though it was a letdown to see Michael as Ben's man on the ship it still better than having it been a dug up Poopy Paolo pop out of the captains head.

For ILBLXX: The anagram fro lima beans is Ben Salami ... just thought you'd like to know

#110. Posted by: Hurley ho at March 14, 2008 10:34 AM

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention: WTF was up with Lapidus and the big freighter bouncer meeting secretly that night on the helicopter pad? Didn't big goon #1 (forget his name) tell Grilled Stuft Burrito Lapidus not to be late, or somethign along those lines?? Do we have any idea what that was all about???

#111. Posted by: chopkins at March 14, 2008 10:39 AM

On the lighter side, did anybody else at least have it in the back of their mind that Sun's baby would have Ben's head? Would that have turned TV's most intellectual/thoughtful/amazing show into "Show Most Quickly Turned On By Its Devoted Fans To The Point Of Homicidal Rage"?

#112. Posted by: erons at March 14, 2008 10:40 AM

Regarding the bodies on the plane. Not to be too gross about it, but wouldn't they need to be slightly *fresher* than bodies from the time of Ben's purge?

I think that was the creepy point. How do you get a bunch of NEW dead people?

The implications are clear, but it's an awful lot of people to suddenly... acquire.

#113. Posted by: The Duf at March 14, 2008 10:40 AM

The only thing that might - MIGHT - hint that Jin's was a flashforward is that when he called for a taxi he shouted "taxi" (aka speaking English). Unless, of course, taxis are called taxis in Korean.

#114. Posted by: tim at March 14, 2008 10:45 AM

Am I first? Just kidding Meg...we all know you're # 1. Nice job with the review this week Mac. That makes me feel like I'm not the only one whose head hurts from watching lately.

My only thought was that when the baby was born she would spit out a long green alien toungue like in the old t.v. mini-series "V."

#115. Posted by: Three Men and a Baby...(I counted Hugo twice...) at March 14, 2008 10:45 AM

You're right Duf, they would have to be fairly 'fresh' dead bodies, so couldn't be anyone from Ben's Dharma-gassing episode.

I initially thought the Cap was talking about Widmore financing the fake-plane and getting the dead bodies...but thanks to my precious DVR I rewound and now I've got it. He said Widmore spent mega-bucks to acquire the black box AFTER it was recovered from the fake wreckage. Then he went on to say why they (Cap & Widmore) want Benjamin Linus so badly...that it would take considerable resources to fake that plane crash...not to mention where & how he (meaning Ben) got 324 real-live dead bodies. (Is that an oxymoron?) They want to know how Ben pulls off what he does, where he gets his financial resources and man-power to do what he does, and they want Ben to reveal any and all island secrets.

#116. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 10:51 AM

I LOVE this recap more than any other, especially the way the comments are laid out. But does anybody go to other sites? EW has lots of great stuff, but wondering what other sites people go to. MAC - I go to your site first!

#117. Posted by: erons at March 14, 2008 10:54 AM

the captian said they were trying to leave,but someone kept sabotaging the boat---why would bens man on the boat want them to stay around

#118. Posted by: mike625 at March 14, 2008 11:03 AM

not sure if anyone posted this... but you can clearly see michael in the background just after when regina jumps off the boat

#119. Posted by: schiano at March 14, 2008 11:07 AM

Great recap!

I personally think:

1. Jin is NOT dead. He is back on the island. Hurley & Sun have to visit the grave because they are famous and lying about what REALLY happened on the island, so it is expected that a new mother would visit the grave of her "dead" husband. It totally works, too. Sun says, "I miss you, I miss you." That's because Jin is not dead. He is back on the island.

2. Totally a flash forward + a flash back. The writers messed with us, and it worked, LOL!

3. Today I am obsessed with the pipes on the ship. Why did they make a big deal out of Sayid saying that it must be PERSON banging on the pipes. Who would bang on pipes?

#120. Posted by: Matt-DC at March 14, 2008 11:11 AM

erons-
No time to go to any other sites, and the few times I have it just wasn't as satisfying as this one. Best reviews, best comments by posters, best atmosphere, least amount of negativity and personal attacks, etc etc. Filmfodder rocks.

#121. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 11:12 AM

Thanks for the updates regarding flashback, etc.

GRAAA, mac!

#122. Posted by: Dan at March 14, 2008 11:13 AM

@ Matt-DC

I was also curious about the pipes. I thought for sure Sayid was going to go into full-on Republican Guard pimp mode and decipher some kind of morse code, secret message in the pipe-banging.... still could happen...

xo
-chopkins

#123. Posted by: chopkins at March 14, 2008 11:15 AM

#112. Posted by: erons at March 14, 2008 10:40 AM

On the lighter side?? I practically lost my lunch reading that one. I still can't stop laughing. That is one sick, sick, funny as all hell, and sick idea...lol!! Or, what if it was just the head, and she was carrying it around like a baby.

#124. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 11:30 AM

@21 vacc said:

>I really thought this episode put end the Oceani6 debate once and for all. It HAS to be Jack, Kate, Hurley Sayid, Aaron, Sun.

Maybe, maybe not. Was that a grave or a memorial for Jin? Perhaps he gets off the island, but is killed in the process, thus counting as one of the six but not for long.

I believe the previews said something to the effect that "somebody dies" next week - maybe we see how Jin goes - just after rescue.

#125. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 11:35 AM

Here what happened to Michael.

He and Walt made it off the island, back to civilization. Shortly after that, Ben contacted Michael and told him to go apply at this shipyard to be a deck hand on one of Windmore's freighters. It was either do this or be exposed as the son-of-a-B murderer that he is. He got the job and from that point on became a mole.

There is no doubt that Jin was in flashback mode while Sun was in a flashforward. It was a great story line that most people expected to join in the end. It didn't and it appears that it never will.

I still think Jin is alive and well on the island. He gave up his seat on the helicopter for a good reason.

#126. Posted by: Glen at March 14, 2008 11:39 AM

I have come to the conclusion that this show simply generates as many questions as it answers. Rather than trying to figure it out and second guess your brain into oblivion, we should just absorb it and let it pass through our consciousness. One can only hope the writers will wrap this all up before the show ends or is cancelled. Yet with every new episode it becomes something like herding cats, one or two things are bound to get away.

#127. Posted by: gables79 at March 14, 2008 11:45 AM

you guys bring up all the interesting points before I can do it. But I still have something to say:

1- anybody else finds weird that "Jin" is a one syllable word, but when Sun says that in Korean, it sounds like a 3-syllable word.

2 - any relevance that the doctor was a substitute? Maybe evil. Maybe sent by Ben.

3 - the taxi plate numbers: 2369. I get the 23, it's part of "the numbers", but the 69? Most of us like that number, as we like the show. :)

Agree with #102 Noelle and with all the posters that think this was a FF/FB combo

#128. Posted by: phg at March 14, 2008 11:50 AM

@chopkins #123
"I thought for sure Sayid was going to go into full-on Republican Guard pimp mode and decipher some kind of morse code, secret message in the pipe-banging.... still could happen..."

I think so too, as it seemed that shifting Desmond and Sayid to more 'spacious' quarters was a deliberate ploy to keep them away from the pipe-banger.

#129. Posted by: marissa at March 14, 2008 11:52 AM

→ 125. Posted by: Cecil Rose

I agree. The verdict is still out on Aaron as Number 6.

Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Aaron, Sun are confirmed in one way or another.

Aaron is not confirmed in any fashion. The only one that knows about Aaron in SoCal (so far) are Kate, her Mom, Jack and the Nanny (maybe the lawyer). When I see Aaron flying across the Pacific every weekend on his Golden Pass, demanding that the flight attendant top-off his sippy cup, catching a glimpse of Big Bird's obit in the Toddler Times', hoping the plane crashes - that's when I'll believe Aaron is an OA Sixer.
_____________
Aaron: "Mommie Kate? We have to go back!"

Kate: "Back to the island Aaron? Why? Do you miss our friends there, or Uncle Ben?"

Aaron: "nooooo... I forgot my blankie..."

#130. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 11:54 AM

DON'T TRUST THE CAPTAIN

#131. Posted by: rugs at March 14, 2008 11:55 AM

Desmond looked so hot.

#132. Posted by: Hurley Is Hot at March 14, 2008 11:55 AM

the six are: Jack Kate Sun Sayid Hurley and Hurley (he had to buy 2 seats)

#133. Posted by: lostsox at March 14, 2008 11:56 AM

Okay, I was wrong about Michael. But I have been wrong about everything I post here...and I am usually last to post and nobody reads it anyway.

Watched last weeks rerun and Juliette asks Ben to let the kids go. He says they stay because they are on the list. Ben's lists have been bothering me since I heaqrd of them. Until last night. The list is for the repro of the plane crash. They can't show up because they are dead at the bottom of the ocean. On the manifest list. Somehow Ben got 324 bodies to fake the crash- and a plane. But he seems to have unlimited funds. For PROOF of it being 815, he needed a recognizable pilot, so he had smokey - a sophisticated weapon "Security System"--TAKE the pilot to use in the fake. It was so deep only a remote could go and take pictures. So the pilot is the only positive ID. Somehow smokey dropped the ring and that alerted the frieghter people. So I think Ben is behind it- good or bad- to keep Madonna mold worshippers from descending on the island.

I wonder if Ben didn't cause the Hatch problem so he could control who gets on and off and when.

@Bus. Like your story so far.

@58 I thought Michael looked older too, grayer, But if Ben said help me or you'll never see Walt again.....That would cause some gray.

ALSO. If Mike is Ben's man, and Ben says "Don't trust the Captain", Then the losties SHOULD trust the captain if they want to get off the island.

AND, remember Sayid's scar not being there in the vet's office? Maybe that was a FF/FB too. and we didn't catch it.

Also, I want to know more about the numbers. This equation thingee is probably at the bottom of things. The "THEY" of the world's conspiracies want the powwers/resourses of the island for ill - possilbly causing the end of mankind. Ben? and his group want to keep it from happening by using the numbers .....and that's where I get LOST.

#134. Posted by: Berkyo at March 14, 2008 11:59 AM

Ok, so wikipedia can be helpful sometimes-

John Galt was a character in the book "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand. In the book he invented an electrical "thingy" that used static electricity from the atmosphere as its main source of energy - a machine which spontaneously converts thermal energy into mechanical work...The book gives the source as static electricity from the air, and suggests that a "new physics" was necessary to tap it. Additionally, the device [do I see a box?] is seen by many to be a metaphor for a person who has the ability to convert dispersed energy and resources into useful materials. [Ben, is that you?]

For what it's worth - and, if the Captain's name is not John Galt, then nevermind. :)

#135. Posted by: SonnyESQ at March 14, 2008 12:07 PM

@81. Posted by: ChristinaLVT
"I wonder who blew their brains out in the room that Sayid and Des will be staying?"

>>>> after all of last week's post's, I would assume it was Cindy's scarf.

#136. Posted by: welh at March 14, 2008 12:08 PM

Or maybe it was someone on this blog, after being driven insane by said scarf.

(Oh, and I promised no silliness)

I have always been an advocate of Sayid's flashforwards with Ben being, in fact, flashbacks. Glad to know I am recruiting a following with that theory.

Oh, and I guess I'll eat crow for insisting it would be simply to obvious for it to be Michael on the boat. But, it is Walt tapping on the pipes.

#137. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 12:23 PM

Regarding the bodies on the plane.

Until last night, I always figured that those bodies...just like the plane, were staged. They aren't real bodies, just mannequins that Widmore(?) created to plant with the wreckage.

I know the Captain made the comment about bodies, but seriously, if you were going to stage that crash, wouldn't it be a heck of a lot easier to create some bodies than to actually find some?

#138. Posted by: petew at March 14, 2008 12:27 PM

OMG, 126 posts already. I simply cannot read them all before making a few comments, but I did scan them.

BTW: I AM THE PANDA. koo koo kachoo

The name of the hospital was CHOO DONG or something, and I thought the sign said it was in China.

Who was the guy in the hospital waiting room?

What was the big deal about removing Sun's ring?

Why does Hurley say "Good" when Sun says no one else is coming to the cemetary?

And Hurley in a suit? hee hee

Maybe Sun and baby lived because Jin really is not the father after all, ie she did not conceive on the Island.

I had a "Rosemary's Baby" moment when Sun gave birth.

Dr Bae vs Dr Park? Significance?

Those sneaky writers... renaming Michael "Kevin Johnson" to fool us (and the Freighties) into thinking it wasn't Micahel. It was rather cliche to have him pose as a janitor. -126 Glen made some good points.

Could Jin be TMITC (the man in the casket...a small casket)?

Clementine, have to agree with you: Captain Gault is yummy.

Bernard says to Jin: Locke's a murderer. Karma. He doesn't know that Jin is a murderer, as well.

Loved the "cabin fever" line.

Now, about that blood on the wall.

I also had a South Park moment when Jin was running after the taxi. "You Bastard. I will kill you."

License plate on the taxi: 38-2369?

At least they were lima beans, and not fava.

Must do some work and clear my head now.

#139. Posted by: lovelost at March 14, 2008 12:30 PM

re: Michael/Kevin/Toolboy - It seemed as though he did not remember Sayid at all vs. pretending not to know him so he wouldn't blow his cover. Can't remember if he had met Desmond or not. And it looks as if Sayid tries to jog his memory next week by throwing him against a few walls and beating it outta him. Hope he doesn't use his 'death-legs' again....or do I?

re: Creepy Delivery Dr. - When Sun kept saying that she wanted to wait for Jin before she pushed, it kept panning back and forth between her and the Dr., and I thought that for a moment that it was Jin behind the surgical mask, or at least Sun thought she saw him or imagined him there...and that's when she decided it was ok to push and deliver the baby.

#140. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 14, 2008 12:33 PM

Everyone keeps worrying about (dead) Naomi- I guess I'd worry about the smell (sorry Naomi), but all I can think of is that Miles (creepjerk that he may be) is still standing with that grenade stuffed in his mouth, drooling and snuffling and trying to put teeth marks in a steel pineapple. Locke says that he's being fed and taken care of, but it's been TWO EPISODES!!!!!! (I don't know why I worry about Miles when somewhere, there are over 50 other surviving LOSTers who didn't get speaking parts and are nowhere to be seen..Remind me to speak up if I ever crash in an airplane.)
One other thing, Regina fooled me... she wasn't wearing a red shirt!

#141. Posted by: sandivon at March 14, 2008 12:38 PM

Logically, Michael is one of O6. He's on the freighter - if not the vehicle, then instrumental in the six escaping. This also provides a possible character for the coffin.

Logic also identifies the other two as being Desmond and Charlie. Both have been 'seen' - identified by off-island civilians through the Penny telephone call. It cannot be said 'they died in the crash'.

All of the other characters that know are either alive on the island OR have yet to meet their demise.

#142. Posted by: JT at March 14, 2008 12:41 PM

@116Joepike

Many thanks for detailing the interplay in the Captain Black Box scene. I was confused by it, and it makes much more sense now.

#143. Posted by: petew at March 14, 2008 12:42 PM

after reading one of the above comments, I remembered something from last weeks episode. Ben told Locke that they have a common enemy - the man behind the freightor - Charles Widmore. Do we know why Locke would consider Widmore an enemy? (sometimes there are too many details for me to remember)

#144. Posted by: Jen at March 14, 2008 12:45 PM

I'm sure someone has already made these points, but I don't feel like reading 140 comments.

1) Of course Jin's sequence was a flashback.
2) The Oceanic 6 are the 5 adults we've seen plus Aaron. The advertising leading up to this episode said we'd be finding out the final member, and that' Sun.

#145. Posted by: Phil at March 14, 2008 12:48 PM

@jen - Widmore is the enemy because he is trying to exploit their beloved island.

#146. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 12:49 PM

Am I missing more than I thought I was ordid I dream the line where we were told that "Time, on the island is not what we think"? The sense of time and reality is what is going to really mess with our minds. These guys are good.

#147. Posted by: Patti at March 14, 2008 12:53 PM

142 JT:
But remember, Des wasn't on O815, so can't be part of the O6. (He wasn't on the manifest...nor was he a stowaway, nor was he in Claire's belly.) ;o)

137 Meg:
I have always been an advocate of Sayid's flashforwards with Ben being, in fact, flashbacks. Glad to know I am recruiting a following with that theory.

I don't logically follow that at all. How could it be a flashback? He claimed to be part of the O6 on the golf course, something he couldn't have done before the plane crash happened.

Cuse/Lindeloff in a podcast after that ep even referred to it as 'Sayid's flash-forward', and confirmed him as one of the Oceanic 6. But aside from all that, what makes you think it happened before the crash? And do you mean to tell me that since Sayid was in 'cahoots' with Ben before the crash that all his anti-Ben and anti-Other activities on the island were him acting and fooling everyone? Sorry, I just don't understand.

#148. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 12:56 PM

@145... You're on point Phil, people are overcomplicating things (which can be fun too of course) We all appreciate the Mac Man, none of us are doing recaps like him which can't be easy. But he missed the boat on this recap. And it wasn't Penny's boat. haha

#149. Posted by: R at March 14, 2008 12:56 PM

AND, remember Sayid's scar not being there in the vet's office? Maybe that was a FF/FB too and we didn't catch it.
→ 134. Posted by: Berkyo at March 14, 2008 11:59 AM

I was the one who original brought this ideal out about a FF/FB in the same EP when I notice no scar for FF Sayid scenes. But in a Pod-cast from the producers, they said “We will not do both FF/FB in the same EP for a character. So this can not be both FF/FB for either Sun or Jin. All of Jin’s are FB and Sun’s are FF.

#150. Posted by: micHael at March 14, 2008 12:58 PM

@chopkins Yeah, Yeah on the morse code. I was waiting on it too.

Also, I was thinking the Dr. & nurses were up to something like kidnappng the baby or something.Very sneaky acting

I also thought Jin is alive because of the way Sun was saying "I miss you, I miss you". Just made me think he isn't dead.

#151. Posted by: xanadude at March 14, 2008 12:59 PM

→ 145. Posted by: Phil ...but I don't feel like reading 140 comments.
__________
... I don't feel like addressing your many observations (that were all addresed in the 140 comments you didn't feel like reading).

#152. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 1:01 PM

The blood on the wall (a .38 caliber lobotomy) could be from the guy that went out in the dingy with Minkowski. They just said he was in a body bag, they didn’t say how he died.

Random thought: I can understand why Bernard & Rose would not want to go with Locke after he killed(?) Naomi but why on Earth would Rose want to leave the island & risk her cancer coming back? Could we be heading for two camps of 815ers remaining on the island?

#153. Posted by: cookie at March 14, 2008 1:03 PM

#148. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 12:56 PM

If you remember correctly, the first one was of Sayid on the golf course, where he said he was one of the six. Then it immediately skipped to another scene, the airport (or wherever he was) and meeting that lady he eventually killed. Seemed like two different events in time. But, I am probably wrong. I just don't put anything past these writers. I would get excited if one of my bizarre theories turned out to be even remotely correct.

Then, this episode breathed new life into my theory, mixing the flashbacks with flashforwards. I didn't watch the enhanced version of that show, did anyone?? From now on, I will definitely sit through the show a third time just to see the clues.

#154. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 1:04 PM

I have a step-brother-in-law (that has to make sense) who is in the Army...he a Ranger and has been deployed overseas 3 times so far in the past 2 years. He called me after the episode and told me that the banging on the pipes that Sayid said was no coincidence is true. It was morse code and someone was trying to communicate with Sayid and Des. Here is the translation:

Dot..DotDott = S
DotDot..Dot Dot = C
Dot..Dot = A
DotDotDot..Dot = R
Dot..Dottity Dot Dot = F

TGIF!!

#155. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 14, 2008 1:05 PM

Re: #53...Perhaps Hurly and Sun knew they would be watched in the graveyard, and she did her best Meryl Streep impression.

Here's the bigger question...how did Hurly get out of the Wacko Ward?
* could be it was before he went in...
* if it was after the birth, than why not mention it to Jack during the game of horse?

Last question: Hearly asks Sun if anyone else was coming...seems a little odd? Don't the O6 survivors talk to each other?

#156. Posted by: CoNstANT jEtLaG at March 14, 2008 1:08 PM

@155 RNM - You are too funny. What happened in your fax room today?? I'm driving across the alley as I write...look out for the swerving vehicle!

Okay Joe Pike - You are right, but I still like my theory, even though there is no way in heck it's valid. It would be awesome, and disheartening, to find out one of our beloved Losties was one of Ben's men from before the crash. I just love crow, and I am getting good at eating it.

#157. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 1:10 PM

A few questions that linger from this episode...
1. Does Michael recognize Des and Sayid?

2. Why does Hurley say 'good"? What's he up to?
3. Who and why was killed in Des and Sayid's new room?
4. Who was tapping the pipe and why?

I was totally concinced that Jin was a Flash Back.....but..
1. Why does he say "taxi"?
2. I am pretty sure the nurse from both Sun's and Jin's timelines is the same woman and doesn't look 4 years older.
3. The toy store owner says "In the year of the dragon....it brings good luck" Not specifically this is the year of the dragon.
And this is a BIG stretch. The next year of the dragon is 2012 (predicted to be the end of the world in many cultures)

#158. Posted by: fowleball at March 14, 2008 1:13 PM

First time posting, but have been reading for past 2 years...
To toot my own horn I called the flash forward/flashback combo to those I was watching with (I only say this b/c lately I have been so LOST- no pun- and usually do not get anything correct when making predicitions or decoding.)
Here is my thought and I apologize if this has been covered at some point. It also takes us back a bit and seeing that I can barely retain the info presented in most recent episodes, it may have been covered in a prior season.
Anyhow, Juliet is adamant in the fact that women who become pregnant on the island, die. So what about Rousseau + Ben= Alex? (Ben has lived on the island since he was a kid...) Can someone help me with this?

#159. Posted by: Sarah at March 14, 2008 1:14 PM

@54 petew said:

>...Again, going by ABC promos, they told us someone was going to die this week didn't they?

Someone did - Regina. And I also think they said someone is going to die next week. Jin?

The writers have pretty much quashed the alternate timelines/realities idea.

#160. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 1:16 PM

@55 meg wailed:

>@onelostdude - Can someone else call "MIF" ??? :)

Sure. "Me is first".(g)

Actually, I think whover posts first becomes the honorary Meg that week.

#161. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 1:19 PM

@ sarah #159:

"Anyhow, Juliet is adamant in the fact that women who become pregnant on the island, die. So what about Rousseau + Ben= Alex? (Ben has lived on the island since he was a kid...) Can someone help me with this?"

GREAT point. Did Ben take Rousseau on a romantic time adventure ad get her liquored up enough for coitus OFF island? And hasnt Rousseau essentially said shes been on the island, nonstop, for years and years?? Alex is an intriguing character I'd like to know more about, and her Clockwork Orange boyfriend...

#162. Posted by: chopkins at March 14, 2008 1:22 PM

@Noelle#102-
I think you've nailed it at all levels. I agree, people must be nuts with some of the things they come up with. I mean, Downs?!? Really?!?

#163. Posted by: RAW at March 14, 2008 1:26 PM

I think you're all forgetting that Ben killed ALL of the Others when he offed his dad. The gas killed almost everyone on the island. So...its possible that the bodies used to stage the crash, were the bodies of the Others that died in the gasing.

#164. Posted by: Hanapana at March 14, 2008 1:27 PM

→ 158. Posted by: fowleball
I was totally concinced that Jin was a Flash Back.....but..
1. Why does he say "taxi"?
____________
I know the answer.
Because the English word Taxi (!)
is written 택시!
and pronounced "taeksi" in Korean.
____
I may be at an advantage... my internet has accesss to "search engines". It took me 0.28 seconds to answer the question.

#165. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 1:29 PM

Just a note about the staged aircraft scene:

Oceanic 815 (as seen in the air, getting shredded) is a B-767...the aircraft underwater is the nose section of a B-757.

#166. Posted by: CoNstANT jEtLaG at March 14, 2008 1:29 PM

I think the Jin-Sun storyline is one of the best in the show.

Is there a possibility that Jin is alive and on the island but Sun believes he's dead due to some future event we've yet to see? (Part of a team to blow up something? Or he gets caught by???) Jin had said he would never leave Sun but what if he had to so he could save her?

Or - was Jin the one in the coffin that Jack went to see?

#167. Posted by: Connie at March 14, 2008 1:29 PM

@59 RedBee:

>Captain Gault:

>Do we know his first name yet? Because if it is John we have a whole new set of books to read . . . Who Is John Galt?

One huge boring book.

#168. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 1:30 PM

I know this point has been blogged to death but this is such an ensnaring epsisode, I don't see how you could not have loved it.

A TON of information was given.

Why Jin was a flash back:
(Taking into account the number 1 rule when dissecting an episode of LOST: EVERY line means something.)

While Jin was buying Panda number one, Sun was being wheeled into the hospital. The FIRST thing the nurses say to each other is a confirmation that she is one of the "Oceanic 6", the shop keeper of the Panda, who seems like an out going/question asking fella, NEVER asks Jin if he is one of them, and does not recognize him. For the most part, all the flash forwards show them being recognized, even Sayid at the golf course. But Jin is NEVER recognized.

Second reason has already been written, he looks younger, (did not see the grey, will look back), and the setting looks slightly dated.

And I don't believe they are faking his death or else why would Sun truly cry at the stone with Hurley, if she knew he was alive somewhere?

And Jin would not divorce her and remarry, he JUST SAID, "you'll never lose me again" in the tent.

I'm still dissecting the Michael/Ben relationship. But this introduction of the timeline play this season, has really opened up Pandora's box on theories.

If I was a betting man, the 6 would be: Jack, Kate, Sun, Hurley, Sayid, and Aaron.

I really like the suggestion that Kate using the "I'm pregnant too" scenerio to get on the last ride out before the island is taken over by gas or ol smokey, leaving Jin thinking he will catch the next ride but only waiting for his death. Great thought.

Great conversations, great episode.

#169. Posted by: David at March 14, 2008 1:31 PM

I lied. I can't work. I'm obsessed.

-6 Clementine. Good call on the grave stone dates. Husband/wife/death

-24 and 41 Shitokee (sic) I agree; at this point, Jin is alive. The Six are perpetuating the lie that the rest died.

-35 RNM. Your usual cleverness prevails. Aaron and Je Yeon. Yin and Yang. Good one.

-42 Not an Other re: Michael/Kevin Johnson. Ok...I'm in AZ and the real Kevin Johnson used to play for the Suns, which is plural of Sun, which brings us back to LOST. Makes no sense, but then it's all about me. Because I am the panda.

-121 Joe Pike: Filmfodder rocks. Totally. GRAAM.

So getting back to the panda: seriously, there has to be a reason for such focus on it (and no one was more happy than I). There is obviously some connecton with China, but I can't quite wrap my scarf around it.

#170. Posted by: lovelost at March 14, 2008 1:34 PM

++++++@+++++++@++++++++@

A panda was sitting playing solitaire when another panda walked up and casually asked, "Hey, wanna play some Jin?"

++++++@+++++++@++++++++@

Oh no... this blog has me posting lame puns and jokes... must... break..free... must...escape...

Mr_Naysayer

#171. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 14, 2008 1:35 PM

you forgot a few people in your list. we have not seen michael or walt off the island (if the freighter doesnt count)

wow. i didnt think they could do it, but they proved me wrong. they managed to put the past (Gin) the present(i count the island time as the present) AND the future (Sun and Ji Yeon) all in one episode. wow.

im starting to notice some similarities between Hurley and Hagrid from Harry Potter. they cold both probably eat me. they both have the whole crazy long hair thing going for them and they both are really easy to get information out of. sorry. im a big fan of Harry Potter.

i think thats it for my random thoughts...

#172. Posted by: kaseygir106 at March 14, 2008 1:37 PM

Jin cannot be one of the Oceanic Six because when we see the flash forwards, the people are identified with being one of the "six" - like when Sun went into the hospital. When Jin was buying the panda the shopkeeper would have recognized him. At least that's my 2 cents worth at this moment. Oh, an one more penny worth - Jin dies getting Sun off the island.

Mac - Most Excellent - as usual.

#173. Posted by: David Knight at March 14, 2008 1:38 PM

@68 Jenny Talia (har) posted:

>Great Blog Mac, Confusing episode, I cant figure out Flash back, or Flash foward... Year of dragon was 2000 but they are Japanese aren't they? Yikes Someone figure this out and explain to me please!

to which, @69 Richmond KOOMBBSS said:

>Good point, they are Japanese, that means Jin is living in China.

At some point it was made clear that the Panda was for the new *grandchild* of "*the ambassador*. Presumably the Chinese ambassador, which was why the Panda was the appropriate gift, and the Year of the Dragon was relevant. Mr. Paik just cementing good relations with a country he does or wants to do business with.

#174. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 1:39 PM

LoL....

Looking through the posts, it is clear that this episode has confused many a folk. What better way is there to generate a buzz?

@90 Posted by: Never Seen So Many People Clueless

Lol - I have to agree! I think a re-watch would help many folk!

re: O6

I'm tellin' ya - the final member of the Oceanic Six is Frogurt, and he is the man in the casket that Jack visits. No one attends because because no one can stand him!

But seriously - Kevin/Michael could be the casket man - only time will tell!


Whoever mentioned the sub Doc suspicion - seems valid. Perhaps Ben/someone arranged this to gain a better understanding of how the birth took place.

re: Panda

If only it was "Sexual Harassment Panda" from South Park....

re: Kevin

He does look a little different - I assumed this was the short hair? I will not be surprised if there is a time distortion element to the Michael/Walt story, simply because it will help explain Walt's growth!

#175. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 1:42 PM

The last of the Oceanic Six revealed is Sun.

Aaron isn't as he wasn't born when the plane went down.

The Oceanic 6:

Sayid
Jack
Kate
Hurley
Sun
Claire - Claire? I'll explain:

Remember the funeral where Jack attended by himself at the end of S3? He was asked 'Friend or Family?' and he answered 'either.' = Claire. No one else attended because both her mother and father are dead and the funeral was not in her native country.

Kate couldn't go as she is bound to her home state for 10 years.

Jacks emotional response is due to her being his half sister.

(Plus i suspect that flashforward was way the furthest into the future of any other flashforward)

#176. Posted by: Nathan at March 14, 2008 1:42 PM

@ Sarah:

Ben + Rousseau = Alex ... Who ever said Ben is the biological father of Alex? You're leaving out the possibility that Ben is the adoptive father.

And I can't remember who said what, but I think we're onto something re: The Lists and The Plane Wreck.

#177. Posted by: Matt-DC at March 14, 2008 1:45 PM

@55 Meg

My apologies for calling out MIF!
Poster number 2 called out MIF as well, thinking they were the first post. I was trying to honor you, Mac, and the spirit of this blog.

#178. Posted by: onelostdude at March 14, 2008 1:46 PM

@JoePike: We're all guessing! That's the best part of the show! I just don't read what the producers say.

@TheDuf #113: After being underwater for 2 months I don't think anybody is fresh. Just mostly fish food. Also Ben had a pit full of dead, but somehow not 20 years dead, that he pushed Locke into so it seems plausible. Plus the bodies were probably not recovered because they were in too deep a trench. The small mechanical subs would be able to recover the black box, especially if it was thrown clear.

Why did Hurley say good? He's ashamed he didn't side with Jack (seen at the nuthouse). Also Jack might be in 'back to the island' mode at this point. Sayid must get scary or they all know he's made a deal to work for Ben. Kate would be under a lot of public scrutiny because of her crimes and certainly not allowed to leave the country. Plus a big 'reunion' of O6ers would generate a media frenzy and he prefers the quiet life.

@Mac: Nice Vinnie Jones reference! Maybe he'll headbutt and grab their goods soon!

#179. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at March 14, 2008 1:47 PM

Could Jin's flashback be a time travel back if he suffered the same "time travel" problems that Desmond did when he left the island. Let's say Jin was one of the "lucky ones" who got off the island and he was with Sun but then Jin time traveled back to when they were first married. Then it would have made sense that Sun asked for her husband but he was in another time - trying to get back to Sun of course.

#180. Posted by: cc at March 14, 2008 1:48 PM

@139. lovelost >What was the big deal about removing Sun's ring?

I imagine it's along the lines of 'How would you feel about taking off your wedding ring if your husband died just a couple/few months ago?'

@140 Red..Neck..Man
>Can't remember if he had met Desmond or not.

He must have since he spent time in the Hatch (where he ended up committing his murders). No one thought it was weird he was in there so he must have been a regular.

@159 Sarah
>So what about Rousseau + Ben= Alex? (Ben has lived on the island since he was a kid...) Can someone help me with this?

Ben isn't Alex's biological father. Rousseau was pregnant when her scientific research ship crashed on the island.

#181. Posted by: What happens to Claire? at March 14, 2008 1:49 PM

@79 Mac said:

>RNM brings up an interesting point about Jin potentially jumping around the timeline, just as Desmond did.

In the enhanced broadcasts or a podcast, I can't remember which, dealing with "The Constant" the writers pointed out that Desmond's mind-journey's back to 1996 had no flashback/forward "WHOOSH" accompanying them, and that that was because there were not storytelling devices but actually happening to Desmond in what, to him, was 'present time'.

All Jin's flashes last night had a WHOOSH. I vote flashBACK.

#182. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 1:53 PM

One last LoL...

I gotta say - Hurley looked pretty darn weird with the suit and tie. If anything, this would lead me to believe there is an alternate universe and this Hurley came from there!!

#183. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 1:55 PM

I agree with the whole jin not being dead thing. I dont think he's dead. I refuse to beleive it. Im more prone to beleiving that sun is part of the oceanic 6 and makes it off the island and has her baby. I also think kate is pregnant and thats why she gets off too. My guess is similar to what most of you have read and that is this: the tombstone we witnessed? Its got three dates on it. One being from 1979 which someone noticed that its obviously jin's birthday....Then we have 9/22/2004.....And another 1980......1980??!!!! Wtf!? The 1980, i do not understand but im thinking now.....What if this tombstone was already put there well before anyone got off the island. According to everyone else, everyone on the airplane was orginally presumed dead, correct? So maybe this tombstone was already there from family and friends thinking he died in the crash, jin is still on the island and the tombstone is the only connection sun still has with jin because she is unable to get to jin.

[Editor's Note -- I removed the caps this time ... *this* time]

#184. Posted by: ZackyD at March 14, 2008 1:55 PM

----- Panda Spoiler -----
[quote]
S4E13 Reveal: Charlotte on arch. dig in South American ruin, Machu Picchu. Finds fossilized panda bear with Dharma collar. Island mysteries connected to aboriginal Incan explorers.
[/quote]
----- Panda Spoiler -----

#185. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 1:56 PM

No spoilers - just my theories below!

-The fake plane crash is too deep to recover, therefore they don't need to "plant" 324 bodies, they only planted the captain for the close up. I think Widmore planted the fake not Ben.

-The showdown between the freighties, losties & others will result in the oceanic 6 (includes Aaron) getting off the island and 2 people getting killed (Jin & Claire, in my opinion). RIP Jin. Jack will indirectly be responsible for their death, which is why Sun doesn't want to see him, (hence, Hurley's "good" comment) and why Jack doesn't want to see Aaron (guilt).

-I am not looking forward to Michael/Kevin coming back. Too whiney.

-Ben is not Alex's biological father. Rousseau was pregnant before her ship crashed on the island. The others stole Alex.

- Captain Jack Gault = HOT! in a James Bond/Daniel Craig way.

#186. Posted by: Anonymous at work at March 14, 2008 1:57 PM

@184 Posted by: ZackyD

Please stop yelling! It hurts my ears!

Seriously - I can't/won't read something in all capitals, because that is how I interpret it.

#187. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 1:59 PM

@77

Jin was not in China... contrary to popular belief, Koreans and Chinese speak completely different languages. It wouldn't make sense for both the nurses and the shop-owner to speak Korean. He's definately back in Korea.

Although there is a lot of evidence of Jin's story was a flash-back, I wouldn't be surprised if the writers threw a twist at us and made Jin's story a flash-forward.

Jin pretends he's dead and works for Mr. Paik to protect Sun and his other Oceanic Friends?

#188. Posted by: yoraylee at March 14, 2008 2:00 PM

159 - Sarah:
"Anyhow, Juliet is adamant in the fact that women who become pregnant on the island, die. So what about Rousseau + Ben= Alex?"

Rousseau + Ben = It never happened.

Rousseau was already preggers when she arrived on the island. Ben adopted Alex (read that as STOLE), and is definitely not her biological papa. Had Danny conceived on the island she would've croaked like all the Other women. But she conceived off the island with someone other than Mr. Linus.

Yo Meg, I've eaten plenty of crow on this list, so no worries. Keep the theories coming...that's what this blog is for!

→ 164. Hanapana
"I think you're all forgetting that Ben killed ALL of the Others when he offed his dad. The gas killed almost everyone on the island. So...its possible that the bodies used to stage the crash, were the bodies of the Others that died in the gasing."

The timing just doesn't work out. Ben would have to have a seriously large Dharma meat locker to keep the bodies fresh enough to have put them on the fake plane! Plus, they were all skeletons in the pit where Locke was, and in the underwater footage you could clearly see skin. Slightly decomposed of course, but still skin. And I believe cold-underwater decomposition would take longer than regular in the warm air decomp...hence the need for 'fresher' bodies.

Pandas are native and exclusive to China (except for zoos of course), so that's why a panda stuffed animal would be appropriate for Jin to give to the Chinese Ambassador to Korea in honor of his new grandson. Paik wants to start doing business in China, so only a Panda would have the appropriate significance.

#189. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 2:01 PM

@95 Mr_Naysayer said:

>Looking forward to hearing more about the BLACKBOX and what is being said on it - the whole crashed/fake plane is a cool storyline - where the dead people come from, etc...

Contrary to the popular conception and what was shown on this show, "black" boxes (flight data recorder, cockpit voice recorder) are painted international orange these days. They *want* them to be found, after all.

#190. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 2:03 PM

@JoePike

Do not underestimate the size of dharma meat lockers!

#191. Posted by: yoraylee at March 14, 2008 2:04 PM

@JoePike

Do not underestimate the size of dharma meat lockers!

#192. Posted by: yoraylee at March 14, 2008 2:04 PM

-171 Mr NS. Glad you decided to join, rather than fight. Much better for your karma, BTW.

#193. Posted by: lovelost at March 14, 2008 2:05 PM

Geeze I took too long to type my last post! I went back and read the posts posted while I was typing and I just repeated a bunch of stuff...sorry. I try to be original and I do read all the posts!!!

#194. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 2:05 PM

@102
if it's Aaron being counted as an off island rescue. Wouldn't the media have a field day trying to figure out where the mother is and how she gave birth when she is supposed to be dead at the bottom of the ocean. I don't know who #6 is but it can't be Aaron unless they purposely put him in as a plot device to finally get the rest of the losties off the island. (i.e some type of investigation/interrogation.)

#195. Posted by: BigNameJames at March 14, 2008 2:07 PM

@101 Piecs of Arzst said:

>Who is #6? (Who is Number One? YOU ARE Number 6!)

I am not a number, I am a free man!

#196. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 2:08 PM

I think that those of you saying Aaron is not one of the O6 are being naive. The Oceanic 6 is a media created term. The media would look at the survivers and see 6 living people rescued, including Aaron, and call them the Oceanic 6. It wouldn't be the Oceanic 6 plus one other person that was born along the way. Also, didn't the producers promise that the full lineup of the O6 would be revealed by the end of this episode?

Also, for those that seem unsure, Jin is definately a flashback. As soon as they started using the flashforwards at the end of last season I knew that they would be able to use this as a plot device. It was well done too if you ask me.

#197. Posted by: Yarney at March 14, 2008 2:13 PM

Sorry if anyone caught this already but why does everyone keep saying that Ben would need 325 or so dead bodies? The story all along has been that only 40 something people survived so he would only need that many bodies. Not that he should have 40 or so bodies in his freezer, but only needing 40ish bodies makes him somewhat less of an evil genius.

#198. Posted by: losthurtsmybrain at March 14, 2008 2:16 PM

But how would they know that ALL 324 passengers perished in the crash unless they saw 324 legitimate and decomposing bodies? Gault was pretty adamant when asking how Ben could've gotten all those dead bodies, which makes me believe many more than just the plane's pilot were seen up close.

Michael TOTALLY knows Des and Sayid, and was relieved when they played along. That's why he was so reluctant to come down the hall and mop that room...he didn't want his Kevin-cover blown.

#199. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 2:17 PM

@112 erons asked:

>On the lighter side, did anybody else at least have it in the back of their mind that Sun's baby would have Ben's head?

I was still open to the possibility of a balck baby. Remember around that time (conception) Jin was gettting insanely jealous of Michael's merely being polite to Sun.

#200. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 2:17 PM

-189 Joe Pike: I'm really not trying to beat a dead panda. I totally get why Jin was presenting the gift, but I don't understand why that particular storyline is significant. So what if Mr Paik wants to do biz in China? What am I missing?

#201. Posted by: lovelost at March 14, 2008 2:17 PM

Deduction:
Someone you love must die in order for you to live (leave the island) - -

Hurley >>> Libby
Sayid >>> Shannon
Sun >>> Jin
Kate >>> Sawyer (?)
Jack >>> Juliet(?)
Aaron >>> Claire (?)

#202. Posted by: welh at March 14, 2008 2:20 PM

I'm still curious about the time warp. Desmond called Penny on Christmas eve (3 months after the crash). So that means there is no time warp. If I remember correctly, Sayid wondered why it was a different part of the day at the freighter than when they took off from the island just 20 minutes before. And Daniel explained to some islanders that there was a time difference. So why was the time difference questioned in both "times" if there really is no time difference? Mess up with writing?

#203. Posted by: Hanapana at March 14, 2008 2:20 PM

re: Mr. Paik and China....

So - While we all ponder the sneaky flashback/forward mislead, let us keep in mind that Mr. Paik's power/importance/connections are once again re-affirmed. In the same episode, we are made to wonder who has the power to fake an airline crash.

re: Ben

Since I recently watched his flashback episode, his background has been on my mind. This season, we know he will leave the island in the future, and we have been made to believe he has done this before (via his secret room $$ and passport stash). Miles has certainly implied that Ben has access to large amounts of money, and now the freighter captain has suggested that Ben may have been the man behind the fake plane crash.

I sure hope we have a Ben-centric episode this season, so we can learn more. From the previous one, there is a large gap between his childhood and the purge. I will not at all be surprised if much of that time is actually spent off island, where he attends university (Psych major would be my guess), and builds his fortune/power.

Once he has done what he needed to do, he returns to the island under false pretenses, and obtains a lowly job of "workman" so he can initiate the purge.

I wonder if Ben will somehow be connected to Mr. Paik?

#204. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 2:23 PM

hello to all: i dont have much to add that hasnt already been said. i'm in tha group that believe jin's was definitely a flashback.

last nights epi was good.

as for those that believe jin is still alive because sun says, "i miss you", i say it all the time when i visit my fathers grave or my fav auntie and trust me, they are dead. soooooo.....i dont believe those words are a clue to jin's status. :) i believe he stayed on the island or was killed helping/making sure sun left.

cant wait till next week!!!

peace&love to all.

#205. Posted by: tiffani at March 14, 2008 2:26 PM

→ 202: lovelost

The story itself (Jin trying to get the Panda to the ambassador for Paik) isn't really significant at all. The writers just needed a story to parallel what was happening with Sun to fool you into thinking he was on his way to see Sun have their baby. The big shocker was that Jin's story turned out to be a flash-back, and in the future-flash he is dead. (Or is he...?!)

→ 199. losthurtsmybrain
The fake plane cover story has nothing to do with 40 actual initial island survivors (or whatever the number is). The fake story claims that ALL on the plane perished in the crash, and the bodies are there to prove it.

ZackyD...read #5 below to see why your post will likely be history soon. I tried to read it, but just go too annoyed! Sorry.

#206. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 2:28 PM

#178. Posted by: onelostdude at March 14, 2008 01:46 PM

I know that onelostdude...:) it's one of the things I love about the people in this blog..you are awesome. Anyone is free to call out MIF whenever they please...especially if you drop something on your toe (one of the three)

Oh, last night while watching the enhanced Lost, they made a point of pointing out that the voices appear when the dead people appear. Wonder if that hostile shrink is dead as well??

No pandas were harmed while typing this post.

#184. Posted by: ZackyD at March 14, 2008 01:55 PM

I HEAR YA! MY EARS ARE RINGING!! lol :)

#207. Posted by: meg at March 14, 2008 2:33 PM

@ 193 - Mr NS. Glad you decided to join, rather than fight. Much better for your karma, BTW.

-------------

Never one to live up to the old cliche: If ya can't beat 'em - join 'em, I decided to play wolf in sheep's clothing and scout out the scene before I strike... don't trust a Naysayer! haha. Beware the Ides of March!! Et tu, Ben Linus, et tu?

--------------

HERE IS AN INTERESTING OBSERVATION: I am assuming most of us are at work reading, writing, and posting to this blog... I wonder how much money is spent by our collective employers to fuel our Mac Blog obsessions? 3.2 Miiiiillion Dollars? (insert Dr.Evil laugh here)
---------------

One more observation... if a Panda bear farts in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

#208. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 14, 2008 2:35 PM

Mr_Naysayer
"One more observation... if a Panda bear farts in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Yes, unless it's muffled by CINDY'S SCARF!

(Hope I was the first one to post that!)

#209. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 2:39 PM

Is the freighter being drawn towards the island (magnetism)? When it was mentioned to Sayid that the engines had been sabotaged Sayid said something like, "then we aren't moving", and the reply went something like, "oh, aren't we?". Could this be the reason (being drawn closer to the island) for the "cabin fever"? Is Lapidis flying closer to the storm to judge the distance between the ship and the island? Has Michael destroyed the ships systems so that they will indeed enter the storm and therefore kill Widmore's crew (as Ben wishes will happen)?

#210. Posted by: Len at March 14, 2008 2:44 PM

@ 207 - they said that about the voices?

See, that's what I'm talking about. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I really dislike the idea that on the repeats of last week, we get "new" information, in an "enhanced" version.

Come ON! Aren't we all loyal enough as is? Now we have to watch the episodes twice just to get all the facts? Geez...

#211. Posted by: The Duf at March 14, 2008 2:45 PM

@156, 181, 186, etc about Rousseau, Ben and Alex:

Was it ever explained why Ben stole Alex? It doesn't seem like the other kids who have been stolen refer to him as their father as Alex does. I think he stole Alex to be his daughter because Annie was pregnant and left the island to have and raise the child. This is why Ben is so traumatized about Annie and why he would kidnap Alex. I also think that Charlotte will end up being Ben's real daughter. They made a point to tell so much of her background, including her birthdate which put her at 21 or 22 at the time (if I remember correctly, I do remember for sure that the age worked out in that Ben could be her father). That would explain how she has "daddy issues" just like everone else on the island!

Um, please correct me if these have already been disproven. I'm not as good at this as a lot of you are.

#212. Posted by: lostlova at March 14, 2008 2:49 PM

@166 CoNstANT jEtLaG said:

>Oceanic 815 (as seen in the air, getting shredded) is a B-767...the aircraft underwater is the nose section of a B-757.

And the actual wreckage on the beach that Bad Robot Productions dismantled for props and set dressing was an L-1011.

#213. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 2:50 PM

@176 Nathan said:

>Remember the funeral where Jack attended by himself at the end of S3? He was asked 'Friend or Family?' and he answered 'either.' = Claire.

This point was argued endlessly over the interregnum, and then settled decisively when "Through the Looking Glass" was rebroadcast with popups at the beginning of S-4. It's "neither".

#214. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 2:56 PM

The Oceanic 6 are Jack, Kate, Aaron, Hurley, Sayid, and Sun.

#215. Posted by: amanda S. at March 14, 2008 2:56 PM

I'm sorry I couldn't make it through ALL the posts. Wow, you people can opine.

1> Jin - R.I.P. From the emotion Sun expressed I think he's really gone. Either gone-gone or on the island and can't get back gone. Either way Sun is having their child alone. made me cry.

2> Did anyone else think the pipe banging was Morse Code? I was waiting for Sayid to decipher some obscure message.

3> Who's good? Who's bad?? AHHHHH!!!!

4> Obviously the grave is a monument. Wherever he died it was around the island and his body would still be there.

5> The producers have stated that this was not going to be all happy at the end and that it would be bittersweet. To me that spells trouble.

6> Jules is SO not going home.

7> I rewatched the pop-up lost and I could swear that Widmore was having Des beat up.

mac- keep up the great work!

#216. Posted by: EthansGirl at March 14, 2008 2:57 PM

Might as well keep spending my boss's money today...

There's a post-hospital scene where Sun takes her ring out of a plastic bag. The name on the bag was fuzzy but it did not appear to be hers. Or maybe I was the fuzzy one. (That was NOT a panda reference.) So that's why the fuss about taking the ring off: so she could retrieve it from the bag and we'd see someone else's name.

#217. Posted by: lovelost at March 14, 2008 2:59 PM

@176 Nathan alsoo said:

>Kate couldn't go as she is bound to her home state for 10 years.

Thee funeral was in California - Los Angeles. (LAPD patrol car passes Jack as he crosses the street to the Hoffs-Drawler funeral parlor.)

#218. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 2:59 PM

*red neck man...you are too funny

*post#201. if michael would have been the father of sun's baby, why would you think the baby would be considered black?? how about bi-racial or even korean??

*in the last issue of the tv guide with sayid and juliet on the cover there was a q&a with the producers and the question of wether aaron was one of the surviving six was asked. the producers would not confirm it or deny it, so i am led to believe there has to be a reason why they wont at this time and that aaron is going to quite significant to future episodes.

#219. Posted by: tiffani at March 14, 2008 3:00 PM

Husband and I both think that Jin is alive and still on the island. They had to put up a grave stone with his date of death as the plane crash, to keep up the appearances that there were only 6 survivors. (Or 8, or whatever). I really think Jin's alive.

Either that, or he died trying to get Sun off the island. He has a line in the episode that he would do anything to protect Sun and the baby. Maybe he died to get them rescued somehow.

#220. Posted by: amanda S. at March 14, 2008 3:01 PM

Flashback/Flashforward – As great as I thought the writers rendered Desmond's flashback/flash-forward episode with Penny, I thought the Jin fake-future-flash-but-really-a-flashback (if that's what it was) was a cheesy plot device.

But on that subject, did anyone see who Jin saw when he peaked into the delivery room – was it Sun or not?

Also, any relevance to the blue ribbon Jin put on the panda? If not, why bother showing that?

#221. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 14, 2008 3:05 PM

Blue ribbon = boy baby. Jin asked the gender right before he put it on the Panda.

Not Sun in the room...it was the Ambassador's daughter or daughter-in-law.

#222. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 3:08 PM

-221 Scooby-Dude: Blue is for boys; pink is for girls. Sun had a girl; the Ambassador's grandchild was a boy.

#223. Posted by: lovelost at March 14, 2008 3:09 PM

→ 211. Posted by: The Duf
Come ON! Aren't we all loyal enough as is? Now we have to watch the episodes twice just to get all the facts? Geez...
_________
It is not about us loyal ones. It is about the other 95% of the viewers that aren't as loyal - casual viewers that want to watch, to feel like they are keeping up and to be entertained. LOST was losing too much viewership from season to season and was looking at cancellation after the early S3 slump. It is a business. You have to get butts in the seats to sell whatever it is the sponsors are pushing.

Enhanced episodes keep fringe viewers connected - and their fannies in-place.
[It also settles half a million slapfights on fansites]. You could solve your problem by JUST watching the enhanced version.

[And what "loyal" fan "only" watches an episode JUST TWICE?] [;^)

#224. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 3:10 PM

They did show the mother of the Ambassador's grand baby, it was not Sun. And the blue ribbon was to show the Ambassador that Jin knew enough about the baby to know it was a boy. A matter of business respect to show such attention to detail.

I think Juliet was in the casket. I think she contracts something before she gets off the island or else Ben has Sayid kill her before she exposes him. She's on the "list". Which is why Jack was the only one there since he cared for her. And Kate certianly didn't.

I think Jin dies getting Sun off the island. All for love baby!

I also think Kate is the cause of several Losties not getting rescued. Which is why Jack has no desire to see the baby she decided to raise out of guilt. He also does not know it is his nephew until the last season.

I think the Michael's change of appearence will be attributed to the time differential between the boat and the island.

I think my company has spent alot of money to support my Lost addiction, and I think this is one of the longest blogs I have ever read.

Have a nice day!

#225. Posted by: David at March 14, 2008 3:19 PM

@ Cecile Rose 190

I think the box was orange but it seemed charred and should we believe that it's the box from the real 815? If so, that means that they fished it out of the ocean where the tailies crashed (correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the "black box" in the back of the plane?)

Also, I was thinking "negro-asian" also....

Finally, Haven't had time to read all the posts (first day, 200 plus #@$%!$!)
but here are my 2 cents:

-Ben's got some resources!!!!

-Not sure if Jin is dead or still on the Island (I think dead because if not, why go see his grave...)

-I believe Michael is the one that completes the six...would fit with the fake story: The 8 survivors would be the six plus Claire & Jin and I wonder if the don't also get off the island but die on they're way back (on the boat for example with all the suicides going on....) This would explain the 8 vs 6 aspect of the story (some holes in this theory but anyway, with lost, who knows....)

#226. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 14, 2008 3:23 PM

the oceanic six are: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, and baby Aaron.

#227. Posted by: CECIBEAN at March 14, 2008 3:25 PM

the nice thing about this site is taht you aren't "browsing" the internet by visiting various Lost sites, you are only on one page ALL DAY so you could have kept your browser open even though you were busy working! that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

#228. Posted by: anonymous at work at March 14, 2008 3:27 PM

First time poster here so take it easy on me.

@117 eron - lostblog.net

@139 lovelost - who did Jin ever kill? Not the lover of his wife, right

@152 DocH - well said...i just spent an hour reading over all of them

I think that we are too eager to beleive that Ben is the one who actually planted the wreckage. I think the note was not only for Sayid and Desmond, but was also a hint to us as viewers to "not trust the captain" and anything he was going to say. I think a man like Widmore, with his resources, is much more capable of setting up fake wreckage.

Does anyone know where, on a plane the black box is located, is it in the cabin? And can those be duplicated?

#229. Posted by: lost4ever at March 14, 2008 3:27 PM

Did anyone notice how many toes Regina had (ANRT? = Anyone notice Regina's Toes?)? DAMN!! When the hell are they gonna answer that one?

Wait...here's a couple more question marks...???????????

#230. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 14, 2008 3:31 PM

Don't know where on a plane the black box is located, but I think Widmore spent 'considerable resources' to obtain it to prove to himself that the plane on the ocean floor is a fake planted by Benny.

You know...B B B Benny and his jet!

#231. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 3:32 PM

Blue = Boy am I dumb. Thanks.

@Red...Neck...Man (155) - Morse code SCARF. Hilarious!

About Naomi – she's dead, airtime is short, no need to show her anymore except to alleviate us conspiracy theorists. Why did the camera linger over her dead body so long in previous episode? Just the writers messing with us, IMHO.

But here's another conspiracy theory: Was Regina jumping off the boat staged for Desmond and Sayid to see? If so, why?

@Rudy 104 - Whats up with the lima beans? Maybe Ben's real name is Ben Limas.

#232. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 14, 2008 3:34 PM

Doesn't it bother anyone else that Sun had such a teeny-tiny waist so soon after giving birth? Am I the only one who noticed? Nobody, and I mean nobody, has a waist the diameter of a dessert plate so soon after giving birth. Maybe it's significant, but probably not. It just really bugged me.

#233. Posted by: rjb at March 14, 2008 3:39 PM

I love the enhanced EP and the fact they do them a week later. This way you can think, discuss, read The Blog (Mac’s) and whatever then watch the EP again to get some question answered. I hope they continue doing this. When the DVD’s come out I hope they have an option to watch regular or enhanced.

#234. Posted by: micHael at March 14, 2008 3:41 PM

Doesn't it bother anyone else that Sun had such a teeny-tiny waist so soon after giving birth? Am I the only one who noticed? Nobody, and I mean nobody, has a waist the diameter of a dessert plate so soon after giving birth. Maybe it's significant, but probably not. It just really bugged me.

#235. Posted by: rjb at March 14, 2008 3:43 PM

→ 229. Posted by: lost4ever
I think that we are too eager to beleive that Ben is the one who actually planted the wreckage. I think the note was not only for Sayid and Desmond, but was also a hint to us as viewers to "not trust the captain" and anything he was going to say. I think a man like Widmore, with his resources, is much more capable of setting up fake wreckage.
---------------
I completely agree with your "not taking things at face value" assessment of Ben. You jogged my thoughts too on the "trust the captain" note. Anyone who slips me an unsigned anonymous "don't trust someone" note... I think my first tendency would be trust the anonymous note writer the least.

#236. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 3:44 PM

@219 Posted by: tiffani

re: Aaron
"the producers would not confirm it or deny it"

Obviously they did not reveal this because it would ruin the misdirect of believing that Sun and Jin were both O6. If at the onset of the episode, you know that there is only one spot left, it would be clear that Sun is a flashforward and Jin is a flashback.

As mentioned - sneaky, sneaky!

Aaron may turn out to be 1of6 (I would prefer the sexiness of 7of9), but it could easily be someone else. Like others, I keep thinking about Desmond's vision of Claire and Aaron boarding the chopper. All other visions have happened - why not this?

Perhaps Claire is 1of6, but she dies while on the helicopter? Perhaps when they leave the island via chopper, she gets injured somehow, or has a weird attack. Perhaps Jack tries something to save her, it backfires, and this is why he does not want to see Aaron?

One way or another, I think we will still experience Claire boarding the chopper with Aaron sometime in the future. Maybe she simply says her final good bye to Aaron, and then hops off the chopper? Who knows?

#237. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 3:45 PM

Anagrams for Lima Beans:

Samba Line (party lunch?)
Am Lesbian (prepared by Regina?)
Bail Names (alias time?)
Bail Means (good as cash?)
Man Is Able (eat beans, break out?)
Lamb In Sea (lima beans, the 'Other' white meat)
Bi-Seal Man (that's just wrong!)

#238. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 14, 2008 3:48 PM

I noticed that Sun had a pretty skinny waste too when Hurley showed up, but it's hard to say how much time had passed. Could've been 2-4 weeks...could've been a month or 2. Hard to say how old Ji Yeon was, so it's feasible that Sun could've lost the weight very quickly. High metabolism people tend to do that...like my wife. She had her normal jeans on within 2 weeks of birthing all 3 of our kids.

School is almost out...prepare for an "ilovebenjaminlinusxx" posting onslaught! (Don't worry kid - we're looking forward to it.)

#239. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 3:49 PM

@226 Prosecutor67 (wasn't is supposed to be upgraded to Ass't DA or summat?)

>@ Cecil(no e, dude) Rose 190

>I think the box was orange but it seemed charred and should we believe that it's the box from the real 815? If so, that means that they fished it out of the ocean where the tailies crashed (correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the "black box" in the back of the plane?)

Yes, black boxes are usually loacated near the tail (last to the crash, with all that crushable structure/human padding up front).

They probably wouldn't use the actual 815 black box, because the flight data would show right where the crash took place, as opposed to where the fake crash was located.

Anyone with the resources to fake the crash and 300+ bodies would be able to gen up a fake recording, as well.

And to recover the box from thr tail section, they'd have to have gotten within a few hundred yards of the shore, which we've seen no evidence they can do, yet.

#240. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 14, 2008 3:51 PM

Biggest questions I have...

Can Juliet get whacked around any more?

Where'd the helo go?

What's up with the lima beans?

I don't have a big problem with Regina playing Anchor, but why did nobody care?

Somebody with Tivo help me out here - why was Sun packing in the beginning? If she was already packing to go to the hospital the labor pains shouldn't have come as such a big surprise. And how many toothbrushes were on her bathroom counter? Any manly products in the medicine cabinet?

Nice deck-swabbing there, Mike-o. Musta got his degree at Slacker State University.

Favorite line - When Bernard told Jin they were the only two married guys on the island...but not to each other. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

#241. Posted by: Randy at March 14, 2008 4:05 PM

My vote is FB.

Why in the world would Jin still be working for daddy-in-law if he and Sun got a gizzilon dollars for being of the Oceanic 6 ?

Also Widmore has as many reasons to keep the island hid as Ben. And if he could get the "box" he could plaint the bodies at the same time.

#242. Posted by: SamFin at March 14, 2008 4:07 PM

→ 237. Posted by: shikotee
Obviously they did not reveal this because it would ruin the misdirect of believing that Sun and Jin were both O6. If at the onset of the episode, you know that there is only one spot left, it would be clear that Sun is a flashforward and Jin is a flashback.
________
Or, Chakotay, you could spin it that there still is one more OA6 slot to reveal.
________
→ 237. Posted by: shikotee
Perhaps Claire is 1of6, but she dies while on the helicopter? Perhaps when they leave the island via chopper, she gets injured somehow, or has a weird attack.
________
I see Claire getting off the island soon in the helo. Perhaps that is the errand Frank is on that we saw last night. He promised to help, feels bad because the Captains thugs are handing out the grief... he went to start shuttling Losties to the ship. Or he went to another Widmore freighter.

Maybe Claire gets 'side effects' on the way to the freighter and croaks like Minkowski... theirs your cliff hanger for the break after next episode. Now she is one of the dead OA8, not one of the living OA6.
---------
?shikotee?

(I know your callsign - not like folks yesterday - I was surprised when none of our gourmands called you Shitake).

#243. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 4:11 PM

I have read everything now, exhausted!

Could someone please confirm for me (eventhough you can't confirm anything in this show), was the Black Box from the fake 815? Meaning the FAA recovered it, and then Widmore stole it from the FAA? He did that to prove the plane wasn't really 815?

JoePike help me out here, you usually put me stright.

#244. Posted by: Rudy at March 14, 2008 4:20 PM

@lovelost #139:

Actually, Jin never killed anyone. At the end of season 3 during the raid by the Others on the beach camp, Jin was the only one that missed when shooting at the dynamite, so he never blew anyone up and he never killed anyone durng his flashbacks.

Sorry if this point was already brought up.

#245. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at March 14, 2008 4:20 PM

Ben did not go off island to get a surgeon because he has a manipulation thing going with the Others too.

#246. Posted by: Bud Said at March 14, 2008 4:21 PM

Sorry folks, my bad. I just got home from work & re-watched the toystore scene. THERE IS NO GREY IN JIN's HAIR! It was just the way his sideburns were trimmed that left a lot of bare skin that at a glance looked like grey hair. It seems there can be little doubt that jin's scenes are indeed flashbacks. Sorry about the confusion. I'm blaming the Gin. And I do mean Gin not Jin.

#247. Posted by: cookie at March 14, 2008 4:25 PM

Rudy, Capt. Gault said the black box was recovered from the fake Oceanic 815 (but not necessarily by the FAA), then purchased or stolen (whatever using considerable resources means!) by Widmore.

And that's really all I (or any of us knows) for sure. But of course, the Capt. can't be trusted!

#248. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 4:29 PM

@41/Posted by: shikotee "Curious - where was mama and papa Paik? I found it strange that neither would be with Sun at the hospital"

What did the doctor say when Mr & Mrs Piak's daughter was born? "Congratulations, you have a new Sun!"

#249. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 4:29 PM

I haven't had a chance to read all the comments, so forgive if I repeat what someone else has said, but...

I thought that the Jin flashback (which I was on to almost from the beginning) was lame lame LAME. Totally p!ssed me off. What was the purpose other than to screw with us?? I just thought that was a sorry trick for the writers/producers to pull on us. It really made me lose respect for the show. Of course, I'll keep watching, but that was a huge disappointment. I hope that somehow they tie that up with a good explanation.

And I figured that the man on the boat was Michael and during the entire show I was telling my hubby that I would be so disappointed if he were. But when the freighter dude called him Kevin and he walked out of the shadows, I totally got excited again. I was pleased with how that came about. I can't wait to find out how he came to be on the boat, how he's Ben's man (I told hubby last night that maybe Ben is using Walt's abilities to communicate with Michael on the boat) and what's happened since he left the island.

#250. Posted by: notsoeasy at March 14, 2008 4:35 PM

→ 244. Posted by: Rudy
"Could someone please confirm for me (eventhough you can't confirm anything in this show), was the Black Box from the fake 815? Meaning the FAA recovered it, and then Widmore stole it from the FAA? He did that to prove the plane wasn't really 815?"

In my view, this is another improbable aspect of the story. Plane crash investigations take years to investigate, especially now in the era of terrorism. There is no way a person can "acquire" a flight data recorder from a plane crash; it is evidence in a potential crime scene.
In addition, if the crash site was found, it would have been secured by the authorities and the bodies removed and identified by forsenic means, which would have shown that it was not the 815 passengers.
Further, a "fake" data recorder would have no use to Widmore finding the island. It's data would have the wrong coordinates. The real black box (if one) from 815 is in the tail section off-shore from the island.

#251. Posted by: welh at March 14, 2008 4:55 PM

@188 yoraylee
You are correct, of course. Although it's possible that Jin could speak Korean AND Chinese, it's not that likely. Further posts have mentioned that it was the Chinese ambassador to Korea's grandson, so they would probably be in Korea (although why would the ambassador's son/daughter be in Korea instead of China?)
This is such a minor point, but much easier on my brain than trying to think about time travel, astral projections, Cindy's scarf, etc.

#252. Posted by: Kathy at March 14, 2008 4:59 PM

Roses are red
The pipes may be cobalt
If Mike's on the boat
Then where the heck is Walt?

At least we should get the Michael story next week

But wait, where's Walt? WALT! WAAAAAALT!!

#253. Posted by: Scoobs at March 14, 2008 5:01 PM

Jin's flash must have been a flash-back cos the guy in the store didn't recognise him plus when he left the store he was trampled on not only by a person but also by a wee scooter and his taxi was also stolen along with his PANDA! If he was one of the oceanic six then people would have noticed him and backed off.

I thought that Sayid might have recognised the pipe banging as for morse code. Could this be possible?

Do we think Michael is undercover as Kevin Johnson? Has memory loss and thinks hes Kevin Johnson? Or, that Michael really IS kevin johnson?

#254. Posted by: AC at March 14, 2008 5:04 PM

@notsoeasy 250

i completly agree with you on the Gin flashback rip off. that was a cheap ploy to keep viewers attentions.

#255. Posted by: kaseygirl106 at March 14, 2008 5:05 PM

@82/Mr_Naysayer "...it looks as if this [week's post] is headed towards PANDA jokes... "

Good try Mr Reverse Psychology. We may have fallen for it last week but this week we will not be Panda-ering to your Jedi mind tricks!

Oh, dang...

#256. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 5:11 PM

I think Hurley ate Jin and he is there because of guilt

#257. Posted by: Sheila at March 14, 2008 5:11 PM

→ 251. Posted by: welh

It's possible that a private firm discovered the fake wreckage and privately recovered the black box before the FAA or govt. got involved and privately put it up for sale. Widmore could have then bought it under the table, or maybe even had it stolen.

Maybe the fake wreckage is too deep for full recovery of all the bodies, and maybe they deem autopsies/identification etc. unnecessary at this point. All on board perished, and they have a manifest, so already know who they are.

I completely agree that the show is reaching on this black box thing...but since it's a fictional show I'll give them another pass...like we had to do for the courtroom fiasco.

#258. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 5:21 PM

@ 161 Cecil Rose

I was first last week and while I do enjoy a bottle of wine or three occasionally I am no Meg & I definitely have no honor.

#259. Posted by: Debunker at March 14, 2008 5:21 PM

@252 Kathy

Wouldn't the Chinese ambassador to Korea be living in Korea?

@251 welh

I agree with you about the black box that Gault had in his possesion. It has to be a fake. Originally it would have been where the tail section crashed, just offshore. And i'm sure Ben would have been aware of this too. The Tailies didn't stay at their campsite very long. Maybe Ben had someone go retreive it and he has it now. Just a thought.
I also found it hysterical when you said " another improbable aspect of the story ". How many improbable aspects does that make now; 4 or 8 or 15 or 16 or 23 or 42? or maybe 108?

#260. Posted by: lost4ever at March 14, 2008 5:25 PM

-229 Lost4ever
-245 Mr Grimm
I stand (sit) corrected. Brain on overload (Dharma alarm sounds). Jin only beat people senseless while working for Mr Paik. In fact, he could not kill.

#261. Posted by: lovelost at March 14, 2008 5:26 PM

So, first the LOST producers confused the hell out of us by bringing in flashbacks (what the eff is Jack doing on a plane? Oh, wait... it's THE plane). Then they confused the hell out of us by bringing in flashforwards (Kate? It's KATE! And they're talking about the island! THE island!). And that was when I thought they were done confusing the hell out of us. Never did I imagine they would throw in both in the same episode and not tell us until the end!!!
Damn you, Lost Powers that Be, you're too smart for us.
Some random observations:

1. I actually did think Jin was one of the Oceanic Six, seeing as he actually did make it off the island and die later. I wonder how he kicked the bucket, anyway.

2. When Sun gave birth to her little screaming bundle of joy, didn't she look over and see Jin in the doorway? I assumed it was a hallucination (ie: something to confuse us even more), but still...

3. No Ben. Poo.

4. For some reason, the first time we saw Regina, I had a feeling she was going to be a really really cool character. Then you know what she did? Jumped off the side of the boat. Grrr...

5. It's Michael. Hmph. Hopefully he's gained some brains during the time he's been missing. Otherwise, it's going to be a LONG show.

6. On the preview for next week's episode, it said that someone was going to die. Then it showed Desmond saying, "Sorry, brother." and pushing a red button that said 'EXECUTE'. So, I did some brainstorming. Previews can be very decieving, so I determined that the scene in which Desmond says, "Sorry, brother." is NOT the scene in which the button is pushed and someone dies. So that doesn't exempt Desmond from a tea party with the Grim Reaper. I did some brainstorming, and came up with three possible solutions:

a. The red EXECUTE button is on the frieghter. In that case, that gives us Michael, Desmond, and Sayid. Well, we know it's not Sayid, because he's one of the Oceanic 6. I doubt it would be Michael, because he just got back. That leaves us with... *crestfallen sigh*

b. The button is in the Tempest. In that case, it could be nearly anyone, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be anybody from Team Locke. Maybe one of the freighter folk... Charlotte or Danny?

c. The button is somewhere else that we either haven't seen yet, or doesn't come to mind. In that case, could be anyone.

So, I guess what I'm really trying to say is, my primary guess is Desmond *sniffle*. How depressing. I love the accent. And my BFF still can't get over that scene where he wore Hurley's tie-die shirt... she made some comment about a kilt earlier today.

7. How/Why did Hurley get to Korea? Strange...

8. When we first saw the Captain, my initial thought was disapointment... he was the most inconspicuous Joe ever seen on this show, excepting maybe Jack. I mean, he looked so ordinary! And then I got excited again... they might just drag in an ordinary looking guy and have him turn out extraordinary. But, so far, I'm not seeing much that's extraordinary.
Anyway, that's all I have for today. Ciao!

#262. Posted by: Kate at March 14, 2008 5:28 PM

Who discovoered the wreckage? was it possibly someone employed by Widmore? If so, how does anyone know if it is really where they say it is.

#263. Posted by: lost4ever at March 14, 2008 5:29 PM

@243 Posted by: DocH

"I know your callsign..."

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That was a not-so discrete post in the last episode that I assumed many would not even encounter.

These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along!

@249 Posted by: bcre8ve

"Sun Joke"

Urge to kill, rising, rising, rising...

#264. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 5:50 PM

My first post... but I think it's a good one!

Lima Beans? Well maybe this is irrelevant, but apparently some Lima Beans contain quite high levels of cyanide.
To quote recipezaar.com -
"Lima beans should not be eaten raw. They contain linamarin, which releases a cyanide compound when the seed is opened; however, cooking deactivates this compound."
Googling this further, it seems that some varieties contain more cyanide than others.

What happens when you've taken cyanide? emedicinehealth.com says: "General weakness, confusion, bizarre behavior, excessive sleepiness, coma, shortness of breath, headache, dizziness, and seizures all can be seen with cyanide poisoning."

Confusion like reading a book upside down? Maybe jumping off a ship counts as bizarre behaviour?

Paul F

#265. Posted by: Paul F at March 14, 2008 5:59 PM

Why does everyone forget about Michael as being on flight 815? He could very well be one of the "Oceanic Six".

#266. Posted by: lostwatcher at March 14, 2008 6:03 PM

→ 262. Posted by: Kate

2. Nope, it wasn't Jin that Sun saw in the doorway...just some dude.

5. No, Michael won't have gained any brains...he's totally Ben's puppet now, like Sayid will be later.

6. Hmmm...it looked to me in the preview that it was Michael who was about to push Execute. Guess we'll find out next week.

7. Hurley got to Korea...on a plane presumably! And he went there specifically to see Sun's new baby. No mystery there!

#267. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 6:21 PM

@Paul F: Welcome to the world of posting and good thought! But canned beans are pre-cooked, not raw. I read somewhere that Lapidus probably gave Des and Sayid canned food as a precaution against poisoning. He may be wary of what he eats due to the "sickness."

***************************
Translation of the Korean on the cemetery marker:

On the left side:
Sun Hwa Baek, born 3/20/1980

The big letters mean his name/his gravestone, Jin Su Kwon

On the right side:
He was born 11/27/1974 and died 9/22/2004

I couldn’t wait around forever for FenwayBen, so I found my own source (DarkUFO) :)

***************************
And here's a quick screencap of an axe stuck in the side of the ship. Missed this in the show. Looks like an homage to The Shining ;)

http://tinyurl*com/3czucc
(replace the * with a period)

Dude, that is one crazy ship!

#268. Posted by: Clementine at March 14, 2008 6:23 PM

Did you mean how did Hurley get to Korea since he was back in the mental hospital? I guess we're to assume he visited Sun and Ji Yeon before all that happened.

#269. Posted by: JoePike at March 14, 2008 6:23 PM

→ 260. Posted by: lost4ever
"How many improbable aspects does that make now; 4 or 8 or 15 or 16 or 23 or 42? or maybe 108?"

I have lost count.
But the inconsistencies and improbable factual representations make me wonder that they are not just continuity errors but intentional clues to the underlying premise of the show.
My new working theory on the show is that Flight 815 never crashed.

#270. Posted by: welh at March 14, 2008 6:30 PM

From ABC's official recap of last night's ep: "Sun is the latest member of the Oceanic Six." That seems pretty definitive, but it sure was news to me. I could not readily find any reference to the other five on their site. And if I missed that revelation here, I apologize.

-215Amanda S and -227Cecibean cite Jack-Kate-Hurley-Sayid-Aaron-Sun. Are they guessing or do they have a source?

BTW: The panda is actually wearing Cindy's scarf.


#271. Posted by: lovelost at March 14, 2008 6:38 PM

Come on everyone - sing along!

Who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree?
Sexual Harassment Panda.
Who explains sexual harassment to you and me?
Sexual Harassment Panda.
"Don't say that! Don't touch there!
Don't be nasty!" says the silly bear.
He's come to tell you what's right and wrong.
Sexual Harassment Panda.

#272. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 6:48 PM

Complete and utter verification that Jin was in Korea:

When he goes to buy the panda for the first time, the shopkeeper says 'it is 50 thousand won'.

1 Korean won = 0.001019 US dollars
-1 giant stuffed panda = $50.95 US
1 Chinese yuan = 0.140976 US dollars

And as someone else pointed out, yes, the Chinese ambassador would presumably live with his family in Korea....hence his daughter would be giving birth in a Korean hospital.

#273. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 14, 2008 6:58 PM

I think the O-6 are:
Kate
Jack
Sayid
Sun
Hurley
Aaron

I think the other two would have to be Jin and Claire. That would be the only way to explain how Aaron was born after the crash (Claire was a survivor), and Sun came home pregnant with Jin's child (she was not pregnant before the crash so that means Jin was a survivor)

#274. Posted by: cissy at March 14, 2008 7:13 PM

# 245 Mr Grimm

Actually, Jin never killed anyone. At the end of season 3 during the raid by the Others on the beach camp, Jin was the only one that missed when shooting at the dynamite, so he never blew anyone up and he never killed anyone durng his flashbacks

I just looked at the scene and Jin actually shot 2 of the others after he missed the dynamite. Looks like he did kill someone.

#275. Posted by: btly at March 14, 2008 7:20 PM

Hi,
I like ur reviews ..they are fun and insightful. but could you please stop posting spoilers about whose 'centric' episode is it going to be next. you never used to talk about that earlier .. but for the last few reviews you always mention that. I hope its not too much to ask.

Thanks

#276. Posted by: kevin johnson at March 14, 2008 7:34 PM

Captain Gault reminded me of Sting. I kept expecting him to burst into, "I'm sending out an S.O.S."

#277. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 7:40 PM

Once again TPTB have given us an epi that answers questions but at the same time opens a can of worms.

Answer: Micheal is the man on the boat
New Question: Is Jin Alive?

Answer: Widmore is the man behind the freighter
New Question: Was Jin's story a FF or FB?

What are they thinking? This just give us more to debate over and takes away time from our Scarf discussions.

#278. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 7:45 PM

It will be interesting to discover Jin's fate. It is possible that Jin may still be alive. I like to think that he is but here are some facts that may signal otherwise:

1) He made peace with his past (forgave Sun/new man). Previously this has happened to a character (Shannon, Eko, Charlie, etc.) just before they die.

2) He stated that he will protect Sun. Is this a setup for things yet to come?

3) He got speeding ticket in Hawaii.

#279. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 7:52 PM

@153/cookie "Why on Earth would Rose want to leave the island & risk her cancer coming back?"

Why do we assume that Locke, Rose and anyone else healed on the island won't remain healed once they leave? Especially Rose. Think back to when she had gone to a healer (Isaac). He told them that he could not heal her because it was not the right "place" for her. So if that had been the right place, would she have had to stay there in order to remain healed? I don't think that lines up with the world that the writers of Lost have created..

#280. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 7:55 PM

@171/Mr_Naysayer "Oh no... this blog has me posting lame puns and jokes... must... break..free... must...escape... "

Poor Mr_Naysayer. he is stranded on a freighter off of an island and is slowly giving in to the power of the blog - oops I mean island.

#281. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 7:59 PM

→ 278. Posted by: bcre8ve
Answer: Micheal is the man on the boat
-----------
Whoa. Michael is A man on the boat. We don't know if he is THEE man or even BEN's man-on-boat.

#282. Posted by: DocH at March 14, 2008 8:02 PM

@229/lost4ever "Does anyone know where, on a plane the black box is located"

I think they should keep them all in a hanger at the airport. That way when a plane crashes it would be much easier to retrieve. [8^)

@232/Scooby-Dude "Whats up with the lima beans? Maybe Ben's real name is Ben Limas.:

Uh, wouldn't that be Bean Limas?

And finally...

I think it was Jack in the casket. That would explain why when asked, "Friend or family?" he replied, "Me there." [8^)

#283. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 8:03 PM

@246/Bud Said "Ben did not go off island to get a surgeon because he has a manipulation thing going with the Others too."

I am speculating that Ben spending time traveling off island is the reason that 1) he has lost touch with the island (Locke's words) and 2) he developed a tumor.

#284. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 8:05 PM

@275 Posted by: btly

Nevermind the fact that Jin missed the explosives but still shot some Others...

Let's remember that Bernard was one of the shooters and that he did blow up his explosives and killed a few others. Kinda weird for him to call Locke a murderer, while he himself is quite the killer dentist!

#285. Posted by: shikotee at March 14, 2008 8:14 PM

Captain = Darth Freighter

#286. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 14, 2008 8:49 PM

We know that leaving the island can do strange things to people's memories. What if Michael no longer remembers the island? And, just to stretch it a bit, what if Michael no longer remembers who he is, and now thinks he really is named "Kevin Johnson"?

#287. Posted by: Zeb at March 14, 2008 9:07 PM

@lovelost/271 - I was wondering if anyone would suggest it was Cindy's scarf on the panda! What if Jin's flashback was really time travel? When and how did he get his hands on Cindy's scarf?

#288. Posted by: solost at March 14, 2008 9:12 PM

Well, I watched it . . .I watched it again . . . and then I read all the posts. I can’t understand all the “hubbub” and confusion on folks minds. It was obvious to me what was flashforward and what was flashback . . ( Come on, think about it. You’ve spent three months on a mysterious island, surrounded by crazy people, your lives depend on getting off the island, and as your wife goes into labor you’re running around ChinaTown looking for a Panda Bear!?!?!?! Not on this planet, buddy boy! - Man, if I had done that with my wife that would have been the LAST BABY we ever made!!!)) I thought the whole Jin and Sun thing was just a WONDERFUL LOVE STORY . . . I must admit to being surprised that Jin is dead . . but I remember that Kate said in her courtroom story that the “six” brought back two bodies with them. I suppose Jin must have been one of them.

I’m still not convinced that Aaron is one of the SIX. It just doesn’t seem feasible, but it is UP to the writers who goes and who . . blows . . . Sooner or later we’ll find out who the last body is.

Aah, silly writers . . Playing with our minds . . After waiting for three weeks to actually view the personage of “Regina” they off her after 9 seconds of air time on screen . . . Some of the crash victims in the first season pilots got longer contracts! . . .

Michael was certainly no surprise. We all say that coming with our eyes closed and our hands tied behind our backs . . . Of course there seemed to be a quick glimpse of him right after Regina takes the chain covered swan dive . . (5.5 on the Olympic diving scale) . . I can’t help but think that was a editing screw-up . . . Sorta took away from the hallway “surprise” . . . Talk about your ultimate “keep your cool” look by Sayid and Des!

Of course, we still have to figure out how he got on the boat . . Where he abandoned his 12 foot son, Tall Walt . . . and if he did get randomly picked up by the freighter on the high seas, and suddenly things start getting sabotaged on the boat, how dumb do these boat people have to be not to figure out who the culprit is?

This is certainly a far cry from the typical crowd casting one sees on “normal television” . . . Let’s see, 1 boat, 14 white guys, one black guy . . . You telling me the writers forgot to include the proverbial skinheaded-swatzika tattooed-sneering- racist bigot crew member from the lower Mississippi delta? And these guys call themselves television writers! Pur-leeese.

BTW - How did Hurley get to Korea? Remember, Oceanic Airlines gave all the “survivors” a Golden Pass!

BTW: The area around Sun’s middle is called a WAIST. Not a “waste”. As in - I just wasted 10 seconds writing that sentence . . . Angelina Jolie. Wow, what a waist!

Those blasted homonyms!

My pick for the SIX:
Stephanie
Melinda
Phil
Jordan
LaKisha
Sanjaya

Crap. Wrong list. I’m soooo behind.

#289. Posted by: davidrh at March 14, 2008 9:26 PM

First post and late to this episode, but:

Did anyone establish who was the blindfolded man in the video with Widmore?

Didn't Ben say that it was one of his men who got "captured?"

Does said blindfolded man look like the captain?

If Gault was "captured" by Widmore, what would that mean to the whole don't trust the captain line of thinking?

If that makes the captain BMOB, what does that mean for Michael's current state of mind?

Looking forward to your thoughts?

#290. Posted by: dnimtsol,golbdaer at March 14, 2008 9:33 PM

I'm confused by people who don't think Aaron is one of the Oceanic 6. People keep saying that he wasn't on the plane and that baffles me. Of course he was on the plane. Whether he had been born yet doesn't matter, he was alive and breathing when that plane took off and crashed. Aaron WAS a passenger on 815.

So, the Oceanic 6 are-
1. Jack
2. Kate
3. Hurley
4. Sayid
5. Aaron
6. Sun

and the other 2 of the surviving 8 (according to the public story that is a lie) are most probably-

1. Jin
2. Claire

On another note, this show continues to amaze me. While every episode doesn't contain a earth shattering moment I find myself watching with more interest than anything else I've ever watched. Great TV, period.

Mac- your reviews are always great. I don't post much, but have been reading since the beginning and you never fail to entertain.

#291. Posted by: scorpio95628 at March 14, 2008 9:51 PM

SORRY TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND SHOUT THIS OUT, BUT I MAY HAVE JUST STUMBLED ONTO SOMETHING!

The guy at the end of this week's episode, the janitor guy on the freighter "Kevin Johnson" - he may be that guy Michael from earlier episodes, you know, the guy that was always looking for his son Walt!!!?

DISCLAIMER:
Dear Meg, RedNeckMan, JoePike, bcre8ve, Scoobydude, shikotee, DocH, Lovelost,Cecil and the rest of the MacBlog Gang... yes I am kidding...I must be getting seasick from being on this damn freighter for so long... I have a fever, and the only prescription is more Panda!

Have a good weekend my Sisters and Brothers from another Other's Mother! Peace.

#292. Posted by: Mr.Naysayer at March 14, 2008 9:55 PM

Sorry if anybody has asked this before, but ...

Is it possible (even likely) that whoever is in the coffin that Jack visits WAS NOT one of the Oceanic 6? I seem to remember that before going to the funeral home, Jack reads a small obit in the newspaper. Since the Oceanic 6 were celebrities, that would have been front page stuff and the funeral a media circus. Instead, nobody's there.

But who? Beats me.

#293. Posted by: Juanis at March 14, 2008 10:07 PM

Who is this Mr. Naysayer??? I must say, he quite intruiges me with his slyness...Sorry, DMIB (drunk meg is back!!)

BTW, Red...Neck...man.... Still ting to make my way 'cross the alley to boca (yes, I'm in the Naples area) stoping at the Indian reservation for a while...be there soon.

Back in a few with some great ideas.... (yeah, right!)

Where's the high school girl?? I think I saw her on a Dateline NBC special!!

#294. Posted by: meg...MIF at March 14, 2008 10:12 PM

@bcre8ve
I like how you think but go back & listen to the dialogue while Jin &
Bernard are fishing. Bernard's as confused as I am. Maybe the writers are just messing with us? Darth Freighter! Good one.

Now for something completely different:
Take a close look at the subtitles in the toystore. When trying to sell Jin the dragon, the store keeper says "...in the year of the dragon it will bring you luck". To me that says IT IS NOT THE YEAR OF THE DRAGON IN JIN's FLASHBACK.

#295. Posted by: cookie at March 14, 2008 10:28 PM

No one has said for sure, but I don't believe Michael has ever met Desmond. I am almost sure of it.

He did look way different though. Natural for the change of seasons, but not so much to keep the continuity of the slow. Unless his contract was a short one, so he refused to cosmetically get in the role.

#296. Posted by: meg...MIF at March 14, 2008 10:32 PM

@ 240 Cecil Rose

"And to recover the box from thr tail section, they'd have to have gotten within a few hundred yards of the shore, which we've seen no evidence they can do, yet."

Do you think it's possible that's what George and his dead friend were doing when that they caught that case of "time-travelitis"?

Or should we believe that the black box is from the fake 815 and that it proves somehow that it's Ben's handywork?

Because I can't really figure out why the captain said that that is the reason why they were looking for Ben (fake plane that is...)

It would explain why Miles is black-mailing Ben (BTW Miles is wrong, it's not technicaly extorsion because he didn't threaten Ben with violence....hey, the law degree has to come in handy sometimes...), since he could have been fed the same info that Ben faked the plane crash and that he thinks old bug-eyes is connected.

Now since Ben seems to have confirmed that he could come up with the money, this could be interpreted as confirming his deep pockets (Can't you just imagine Ben on the mainland with an Escalade and tons of bling...).

It would also make sence that Ben would plant a plane far far away from were the 815 really crashed...no nosey rescuers and all.

P.S yeah it's deputy-chief prosecuter now, but it doesn't really make for a good handle..

#297. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 14, 2008 10:35 PM

Sorry for the multiple posts, yet it ha become clearer to me now...:0

When Jin asks the sex of the baby, he signals this blog (scarf...ahem) by tying a SCARF around the pandas neck...the writers are totally insane.

Okay...2 or three more posts guys, bear with me till I fall asleep (or get bored of this)

ps - I know thee are major typos - let;s call the grammmEr police (oops too many mmms)

#298. Posted by: meg...aka...Cindy's scarf at March 14, 2008 10:40 PM

Nearly 300 posts in 24 hrs

#299. Posted by: cookie at March 14, 2008 10:48 PM

300th already?

Michael looks different b/c he got a haircut!

I gotta give a shout-out to Ealgumby and Mr. Naysayer, welcome additions. And Ealgumby, meant to say last week thoughts go out to you.

#300. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 14, 2008 10:55 PM

300 posts later...
A few mentions of 'lists'. What was the original 'list'? Michael had a list of people he needed to bring back to the Other's camp: Kate, Hurley, Sawyer, Jack. We never quite found out why these 4 were on said list but 3 of these 4 are part of the Oceanic 6. Theory is this: Sawyer is the 6th. Jacob/Ben had the original notion of these 4 being survivors from the get-go. I can't jump on that Aaron bandwagon. Sayid #5 is a pawn for later on. Sun #6 is sent in order to save the life of her child. (Assuming Ben has any humanity left in him)

@293 Yes, Jack was reading a small obit but I believe that was just to find the address of the funeral parlor. He originally saw something on the front page of a newspaper that originally threw him off kilter. This again is where my theory comes into play... Sawyer as one of the O6 dies and the headline makes the front page of said newspaper.
>Jack never really considered Sawyer a friend.
> Kate just used Sawyer for her under-handed schemes and is disgusted in being questioned by Jack as to why she didn't go to the viewing.
>Producers state all 6 should be revealed already. Semantics aside, the coffin with 'assumed' Sawyer in it has been revealed.
I know this is a crazy theory but what the heck, it's a crazy show!

#301. Posted by: Riddlemethis at March 14, 2008 11:26 PM

Re: Cecil Rose...Extortion (I like that...)

Where's Walt? Perhaps, Ben had second thoughts about the "power of WALT", and knew that if he got him back onto the island...daddy dearest, Kevin, (LFKAM-Lostie formally known as Michael), would do ANYTHING in his power to help. Hey, he "scabbed" on his fellow losties before, so he'll do it again.

Since Walts' life is at stake...I would say Michael is being blackmailed.

#302. Posted by: CoNstANT jEtLaG at March 14, 2008 11:43 PM

→ 301. Posted by:Riddlemethis
Producers state all 6 should be revealed already. Semantics aside, the coffin with 'assumed' Sawyer in it has been revealed.
___________
Faulty logic alert. They said a long time ago, when they thought the mid-season break was at the 7 episode point that they would present the "sixers". All bets are off now that the season is back on and that the break is at ep8. They also said that they the coffin originally had Locke in it... but they hesitated to reveal that because they realized they had great plotline going. SO... oficially... 5 of the 6 revealed... coffin dweller - still up for grabs.

#303. Posted by: MorBid0 at March 15, 2008 12:04 AM

For some reason pandas being significant seemed familiar to me. Checking back at #387 under "The Other Woman" Lovelost had the panda joke about "eats shoots and leaves."

It even promted me to post about finding a panda skeleton in Tunisia.

Suddenly a Panda gets a bunch of screen time in a Lost episode and in #185 DocH makes a reference to Charlotte digging up a panda skeleton! Deja Vu....I'm flashing forward and backward uncontrollably!

Lovelost--tell me how'd ya predict the panda? I know people have jokingly theorized that the shows writers read the blog and sometimes post anonymously--The jig is up lovelost! You're one of them aren't you! Just admit it already!

Sorry flashed back to my old Psycho Crispy days for a minute there...feeling better now...need some cereal...

#304. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 15, 2008 12:26 AM

Jiminy Christmas...this has to be a record for number of posts in shortest amount of time (& hardly any scarf references either). Apologies in advance if I bring something up that's already been brought up...I can't remember everything by the time I get to the end of this list, so I'm typing my response as I go through the posts.

@ Gator Gal #96: Re Juliet resembling Annie—check out screen captures of the painting in Ben's house in the Forums section, in S4E6 The Other Woman. Go down to Joshanda's 3/10 post. The woman in the painting changes appearance between the top screen capture (from a S4 episode) & the bottom screen capture (from a S3 episode). Not sure if it means anything, but I thought it was worth noting.

And mac, sorry about my post w/the URLs—I totally forgot when copying my post from the forum to here that URLs are a no-no. I won't make that mistake again!

@ chopkins #109: Joe vs. the Volcano = worst Tom Hanks movie ever. Funny reference here, though!

@ welh #136: LOL! Especially if it was on Mrs. Spitzer's neck this week. ; >

@ sarah 159 & chopkins #162: Alex is Rousseau's biological daughter, but Ben's adopted daughter (although I'm sure there were no formal court proceedings on the island). Rousseau's partner & Alex's biological father was Robert, who was another one of the scientists on the same expedition as Rousseau. The scientists all came down w/some sort of "sickness" & Rousseau killed them. She then gave birth alone. The Others came a week later & stole Alex from her.

@ RNM #35 & lovelost #170: Re Aaron & Ji Yeon being yin & yang—very apropos, as they're mirror images. Aaron was conceived off-island & born on-island; Ji Yeon was conceived on-island & born off-island.

@ Mr. Naysayer #171: We could even trot out the grammarian joke about the panda from last week's blog. ("No!" people shriek as they run for the hills.)

@ lovelost #139 & #217, & What happens to Claire #181: Re Sun's ring—according to the episode description over on Lostpedia, the label on the bag that Sun's ring is in at the end of her flashforward does not say Sun's name.

@ bcre8ve #256: Rim shot!

@ Paul F #265: Wow. I never knew. Good thing I can't stand lima beans.

Hey Clementine #268: Thanks for the translation on the tombstone. Now we know what Sun's full name is (I believe we knew Jin's full name before as Sun quite often called him Jin-Su).

@ bcre8ve #283: Okay, I'm now trying not to wake up the household laughing!

#305. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 15, 2008 12:44 AM

What are the enhanced episodes? When/where are they shown? I have looked through my guide, but cannot find snything.

#306. Posted by: DragonFly at March 15, 2008 12:49 AM

Okay, I’ve read ALL of the comments for this ep, and have some comments of my own ...

Let me start from the easy, and go to the hard from there ...

First:

@Mr_Naysayer/208
@anonymous/228

One of the reasons I’ve waited to post ... is because my company shut down access to this site via our corporate firewall as of yesterday ... apparently I stayed “browsing” on this page for too long ... rats! No one has hunted me down personally, but I suspect “they” know KMA would be the response (first my IM access, now this ... do they honestly expect me to “work” all day long? ... just not my MO - I work in fits and spurts, but always get MUCH more than enough done in the end ... kinda pissed).

Second:

@Red...Neck...Man/155

Beat me to it by a long shot! Seriously though, any radio enthusiasts out there who can tell us if the banging on the pipes is actually Morse Code? I have a bad ear for such things ...

Third:

I have a theory about Michael ... okay, bear with me for a sec. But ... what is the “conspiracy” theory about L.H. Oswald? I mean, at the basic level? The “JFK” et al theory is that he was a "patsy" for powers-that-be, put in place only to take the fall ... in the unlikely event he actually hit the target (more likely not), there would be (at least) someone else who would for sure (okay, not saying I believe this, before you write me off as some freak ... just pointing out the similarity for plot comparison!).

Maybe Michael is the “patsy on the boat,” obviously there under Ben’s auspices, but not THE man on the boat (BTW ... did Michael have a Desmondeqsue flash of his own death?). I defer here to DocH/282 (in concept only, right?) ... what if Michael is a ruse (would that be so hard to believe coming from Ben?). I think the “real” man on the boat is Captain Gault?

First of all, in spite of CR’s objections (168), there are other people seeing things my way, at least potentially (RedBee /59 & SonnyESQ/135) ... I see you don’t like the book Cecil, but honestly, acknowledge the correlations ... “Captain Gault” as John Galt (or more likely, his Ben surrogate) makes perfect sense in terms of plot development. From wiki:

“Secretly, these captains of industry, led by Galt and banker Midas Mulligan, had created their own society — a secret enclave of rational individualists living in 'Galt's Gulch', a town secluded high in a wilderness of mountains in Colorado. Dagny accidentally finds the town — and a shocked John Galt — by crash-landing a light aircraft while pursuing Quentin Daniels.”

Replace “Colorado” with “South Pacific,” “Midas Mulligan” with “Charles Widmore”, “Dagny” with “Locke,” “Quentin” with multiple-choice (maybe “Christian”), and “light aircraft” with “Flight 815,” and you have the makings of Lost ... not a big stretch, given what we’ve seen so far on the show (and numerous literary refs). I know it’s not quite that simplistic, but come on now ... I think it’d be naïve to ignore at least the possibility of Ayn Rand influence, given that Lost is apparently a mish-mash of different sources.

ANYWAY, I think the note came from Captain Gault, NOT Michael!

More or less to let them know that whatever he (the captain) says is under the auspices of "pretending" to be against Ben (does he even know that Desmond/Sayid have reason to distrust Ben?) ... among other things, Michael is WAY too obvious to be Ben’s MOTB, but not to be A man on the boat (rather instead the “patsy” ... and okay, I admit I was wrong about Helen ... so sue me, but I'm right about this ... until proven wrong!).

I’ll just let that go, for now ...

On to the Jin flash-backs ... took the liberty of examining the CARS used in the “flash” (forward or back sequences), and found they were all current (more recent than 2000), but don’t know for sure what that means. The production staff has been pretty good about such things, so have to believe it has meaning ... @cookie/295, good call.

Looked at Sayid’s sequences in “The Economist” as well ... the “die mauer” (the wall) on the hotel door is from the Berlin Ritz, current. The only thing I can see as correlation is the “old” pager Elsa had and the “old” phone Jin had ... maybe from the same source? Not so sure about Jin being dead is what I’m trying to say ... he seems to be in current (2004) time.

Im getting there ...

Have to talk about the “whooshes.” As people on this blog have been apt to point out, what the producers say is “canon,” and I assume that goes for the “enhanced” episodes as well. As chopkins/109 and Cecil Rose/182 pointed out, the enhanced version previously stated that the “whoosh” was only associated with flash-backs, and the flash-forwards had no whoosh because they weren’t flash-backs ...

I challenge you to make sense of the current episode in that light! Until Jin’s last “whoosh” you’d have to assume just the opposite of what everyone here has been saying ... whoosh to/from Sun’s past, no whoosh to Jin’s “future.” Then they eff it all up by giving Jin a whoosh to/from his last out-of-sequence scene; either I’m missing something, or the staff has screwed up their own rules!

What’s up with that!

Have the rules changed (?) ...

I noticed Sun’s lipstick was different between before/after birth (and okay, I know, the rules didn’t change, right?, so this means something!)...

Before she went to the hospital, it was a MAC-looking (and no, I don’t mean you 'mac') lipstick with the number on the bottom (and I know this only because my ex was very specific about what products she wanted me to buy for her), and after birth (just before meeting Hurley) she pulls out a gold-plated (product anyone?) lipstick.

I also took the liberty of snapping a pic of her ring being returned to her in the hospital ... thought it might be important ... anyone able to interpret the label on this?

tinyurl*com/3xqrn8

Finally, ... Scooby-Dude/300, thanks ... 5 more weeks ...

#307. Posted by: ealgumby at March 15, 2008 12:58 AM

@phg/128 - Many Asian languages have honorifics attached to names for various relatives. From the translation of the tombstone that someone posted, his first & middle names are Jin Su. It sounded to me like she said Jin Su Shi, so I'm guessing it's some additional word meaning "my husband."

Re: Down Syndrome - One of the characteristics is "an almond shape to the eyes caused by an epicanthic fold of the eyelid." Have any of you conspiracy theorists noticed that is also a characteristic of NORMAL Asians? Sun & Jin are Asian. That means the baby is also Asian. The majority of Asians do not have Down Syndrome.

Posting tip: When you have a backlog of several hundred unread posts, it may be helpful to start typing your response in Notepad or the like, to keep track of your thoughts. As you read through, you may notice that someone (or many people) have already posted what you were thinking, or offered proof that you are mistaken, or raised another question in your mind. This may prevent you from posting something that's already been beaten to death. (ANTP?) Then hit refresh before you post to catch the dozen new posts that came in while you were reading.

@lovelost/139 - It's a safety procedure to remove jewelry before surgery. Sun was having a difficult delivery & they were preparing for a c-section. If they had needed to use a crash cart or anything electrical (like a cauterizing knife) on her, they could have been electrocuted.

@sandivon/141 - it's an iconoclastic show - I don't think anyone's been wearing red. They're all into earth tones.

@Red...Neck...Man/155- No, you're wrong, it was
Dit dot ditty dit dot a ditty ditty = Baby come home to meee-eee!

@Cecil Rose/168 - Aw, I just read Atlas Shrugged last year. I didn't think it was that bad. At least I understood it. I was totally lost/bored/disgusted with The Fountainhead.

@kate/262 - I thought it was Jin also, but then they showed him closer & it wasn't. I believe that was done on purpose.

@DragonFly/306 - they have been airing immediately before the new ep, but I think there's a new show starting next week in that time slot.

#308. Posted by: hurling at March 15, 2008 1:51 AM

I think the black box is from the fake crash and proves it was staged. I agree that they wouldn't have been able to obtain the 815 black box, but if the staged wreckage had a black box that had been tampered with to make it seem it was 815, what would that prove?

Again, not sure if next week's preview is spoiler worthy so....

****Preview Spoiler****
Am I wrong or wasn't Kevin Johnson (I'm calling him Kevin until they say that he is Michael) using some sort of communication device with headphones and a microphone. If he isn't Ben's MOTB, he may think he is.

****End Possible Spoiler****

Most people have a pretty strong opinion on the issue of Aaron being one of the six. I am not sure that he is, but I don't think he would or should be excluded because he wasn't born yet. Again, this was a media name for them. They want it to be as sensational as possible. I don't think "The Oceanic five and a baby whose mother was on the flight but was born after the crash" would really work.


Namaste......and Scarf.

#309. Posted by: Not an Other at March 15, 2008 2:18 AM

@134 I wonder if Ben didn't cause the Hatch problem so he could control who gets on and off and when.

Just watched the episode where Locke had his legs trapped under the hatch door. He asks Ben to crawl through the ventilation system and punch in the numbers. When Ben returns, he tells Locke he didn't punch in the numbers and nothing happened. (Yes, I know that's a double negative) Why would Ben do that unless he was playing mind games with Locke to get him to stop the clock.

@139 What was the big deal about removing Sun's ring?

Don't forget they spent a full episode with Sun looking for her ring on the island. Also, she's still wearing her rings on her left hand. A widow moves them to the right hand.

@241 Randy

I am also curious as to why Sun is packing when she goes into labor. Since she appears concerned and calls for help, I assume she is not full term. If she is, and Jin died the day of the crash, how does she explain a 10 month pregnancy.

@262 When Sun gave birth to her little screaming bundle of joy, didn't she look over and see Jin in the doorway?

First off, why would a strange man (in a suit) be looking in an open doorway at a woman about to give birth? Second, the scene lasts long enough for us to get a look at him. He must be somebody we've seen before.

I think Hurley's "good" comment just means they won't draw a crowd and be asked a lot of questions.

As far as the six are, I don't really care. I am more confused as to why everyone refers to them in a way that makes it sound like there's something wrong with them and they need to be treated with tender loving care.

I also picked up on the "Goodwin's full name is Goodwin Stanhope" on last weeks enhanced version. Something very fishy about that comment.

Someone mentioned the German gun that Juliette held on Charlotte. Anna Lucia also mentioned to Goodwin that his knife was a leftover from the war. Must be a connection there somewhere.

And somewhere in my peabrain I have decided that Libby worked for Widmore. If I recall correctly, they did say she would appear in future episodes. Before I spend anymore time on this wild theory I've got does anyone have any info on her reappearance?

#310. Posted by: pebsgonepostal at March 15, 2008 2:21 AM

WOW....where to begin
@270 welh
"new working theory"...isn't that the end result of course correction
@272 shikotee
is that original SP? U R awesome on every site.
@276 HYSTERICAL

@277-281,283,284,286
I don't mean for this to be rude. You are so full of info. I know I agreed with something u said.

I quit reading after that ... too many LONG pages. But I will read them ALL tomorrow....hopefully i didn't offend anyone....I am new to posting.

#311. Posted by: lost4ever at March 15, 2008 3:48 AM

@Cecil Rose #196: What out for the Bubble!

#312. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at March 15, 2008 7:05 AM

→ 290. Posted by: dnimtsol,golbdaer

Did anyone establish who was the blindfolded man in the video with Widmore?
I believe it to be 1996 Desmond

Didn't Ben say that it was one of his men who got "captured?"
Yes.

Does said blindfolded man look like the captain?
No.

If Gault was "captured" by Widmore, what would that mean to the whole don't trust the captain line of thinking?
If he was captured by Widmore, Widmore would not put him in charge of his recon vessel.

If that makes the captain BMOB, what does that mean for Michael's current state of mind?
It looked like Michael's memory was erased; lobotomized by his reaction to Des and Sayid.

#313. Posted by: welh at March 15, 2008 11:00 AM

The most important thing that we found out in this episode is that no one celebrated Jin's birthday on the island.
:p
Great, great episode! Got me confused all the time, though, but making a flash-back & forward episode was genius!

#314. Posted by: Julia at March 15, 2008 12:04 PM

I thought and still think the Sun/Jin off-island story was a dual flash-forward, because I assumed the narrative structure of the show had fundamentally changed this season as the series passed the halfway point and winds down to the end. The implied narrative "rule" seemed to be that post-"rescue" there will only be FFwds. There is something perfect about that structure... flipping the series chronology on its head halfway through, like seeing seasons 1-3 in a mirror... and I thought the writers were doing it that way because they liked that perfection, so I just assumed they would stick with it. Also it's just too confusing and unfair to mix both devices at this point in the show, so I hope they haven't introduced this "hey, guess what kind of off-island story this is, we're sneaky!" element to every episode going forward. Sneaky storytelling is fun but there's a limit to what a sporting audience can take. If the show fails to play fair with its narrative "rules" and fails to introduce its storytelling devices properly so we don't even know what the "rules" are, this is where we end up... scratching our heads online, in distress...and the show falls apart! So... maybe I'm in denial, but I'm still trying to figure out a Jin-as-FFwd interpretation.

#315. Posted by: catbarf at March 15, 2008 1:24 PM

→314. Posted by: Julia The most important thing that we found out in this episode is that no one celebrated Jin's birthday on the island.
_______
Sure they did. For his 30th birthday, his wife and friend Sayid took him on an overnight 'gambling' cruise to the see the four-toed statue.
--
Day 67 - Saturday, November 27, 2004
"Live Together, Die Alone" - Sayid, Jin and Sun pass the statue and reach the decoy village.

#316. Posted by: DocH at March 15, 2008 1:32 PM

Re: Jin. What if, as part of the hush deal the Oceanic 6 made, which includes Sun getting off the island (thus insuring her safety), Jin has agreed (under extreme duress) to go back and work for Mr Paik, and as part of this deal must let Sun believe that he is dead? Or Sun knows that he is alive but that they are forbidden to have any contact with each other? Paik is a very powerful guy and he's tied up with either Dharma/Hanso or Widmore or both, or so it's been implied. The only mystery in that case would be the issue of Jin's being married for two years, the year of the Dragon (I'll take the word of others that that year was 2001), and the giant phone. Arrrgh. I feel my denial bubble under great strain. I am SO sick of flashbacks and thought the flash-foward was the PERFECT way to get rid of them while keeping the show the amazingly loopy "Lost" we all know and love. I hate the idea of the show juggling both FBs and FFwds in the same episode. Maybe they can pull it off but... remember that uneasy thrill we got when we realized the flashbacks were not just exposition but a fundamental part of the show? And we didn't know if it was a good idea or not? I'm having it again, threefold.

#317. Posted by: catbarf at March 15, 2008 1:34 PM

So this isn't everything... because I only got up to 50, and because it will be too much to write in one post.

... Being busy on one friday night really set me back. Haha.
_______________________________________

Ok... so Regina was really ugly. Maybe that's why she committed suicide... just kidding... kind of.

@ shikotee - 18
Scott and Steve are awesome! Search "Scott and Steve" on Lostpedia. Even the writers don't know which is which! THat would be HILARIOUS if they make one of them #6. I would NEVER stop laughing...EVER.

@ LostdIt - 19
I completely agree with everything you said. I think you just re-worded all my thoughts and feelings from one of my previous posts. Great minds think alike.

@ vacc - 21
There is no end to the Oceanic 6 debate. I still don't think Aaron is one of them.

JoePike WILL eat his hat. =D (evil yet?)

@ DocH - 22
"1) recap forgets to mention the episode (brief flash) of the TV show "Expose" on the TV in Kwons' room."

... Really? Didn't notice that. That's pretty cool. Now I need to re-watch it for that.

@ shikotee - 24
That's a good point. Maybe it's Sun's only way of communicating with him; and the whole putting up an act thing.

Obviously the public thinks that Jin died in the crash, so the grave has to be empty.

@ PreacherOnun - 26
THe writers said that it doesn't matter who the other two in the 8 are, it was a lie.

Also, his grave said 09/24/2004 on it. Therefore, the public must think that he died in the crash.

@ Ashman - 27
IF they did come back with two bodies (you said, Claire and Jin), it wouldn't make sense.

Charlie would have to be one of them becuase he talked to Penny.

My conclusion is: NONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT "DIED IN THE CRASH" ARE IN THEIR GRAVES. How would they possibly acquire their bodies if they're way down in the ocean? Don't they usually do that when they don't have someone's body? This way, eveyrone could eaisly still be on the island.

I LOVED the panda scene. Haha. All I could think about at that point was "Eats shoots and leaves." Quite ironic actually.

@ DocH - 29
Good point. That's interesting. But they said they found ALL 342 dead bodies.

Ah. I think I'm confusing myself by thinking about what you said.

Scratch that.

@ Glenn - 30 (and everyone else that said this)
I was thinking about his cell phone too! That's the same way I figured out that they Season 3 finale was a flashforward: Jack's cell phone.

There was no way that phone was out before 2004, or even in 2004 or 2005.

I figured either that was the case, or the writers made a big boo boo.

@ vacc - 34
Oh my god! That's genius! That really would have been the coolest thing ever. Maybe that's how it is.

I'm not sure everyone would have been happy with that outcome though.

@ Red...Neck...Man - 35
That's a good point. -- Very creative. Ben is a genius; I'm not sure I would be surprized.

@ vacc - 38
THat's exactly what I do!

@ vacc - 30
Deja Vu, nice. That would make sense.

(I feel like I'm going through every post one by one).

@ shikotee - 41
"Where's mama and papa Paik?"
Maybe Sun wanted to get "past" her parents. Her dad, after all, is a bad man and did ruin Sin and Jin's relationship because of that. I wouldn't exactly "thank" him for that.

@ Not an Other - 42
Yes, the mdeia doesn't really think that much about it, but they have to be somewhat smart about it.

Did I mention that I still don't think Aaron is one of the six?

@ The_Distress_Signal - 48
Exactly.

@ Bus Smith - 50
Haha... Nice. I would buy that Autobiography.
________________________________________

To everyone: Expect me to be in Ben's "flashforward" as his wife or girlfriend... or his new stalking prop.

=D (Evil?)

#318. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 15, 2008 1:35 PM

Why didn't Claire die while still pregnant? We always thought it was because she got pregnant off the island, right? But now, Jules says that Sun will die if she stays, and supposedly she's an off-island conception pregnancy. Is Juliet lying that it is really Jin's baby? How can she be so sure she will die given Claire's survival? Despite Claire being monitored by Ethan that still wouldn't have made a difference given what we know about all the other on-island conceptions that were death sentences.

#319. Posted by: catbarf at March 15, 2008 1:37 PM

////////////

Not sure if I feel the same buzz sitting here reading posts and making comments being that it is Saturday afternoon and the company I work for isn't paying me for it!


The weekend is here - time to guzzle some Dharma beer and wine and chilllll.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

#320. Posted by: Mr.Naysayer at March 15, 2008 1:38 PM

I wouldn't waste too much time trying to figure out the Jin parts as Flash-Forwards, as clearly they were not.

I have more respect for the writers for inter-mixing FF's with FB's in a single episode because they have faith in the intelligence of their audience. They're continually challenging us, while not making it too difficult to keep up.

The only rules they're following that I can remember are:

- The only true 'canon' things as far as the Lost mythology & story goes are what appears in the actual episodes. (The Orchid video might be an exception?)
- When you're dead, you're truly dead.
- Time travel stories are paradox averse. (The future we've already seen cannot be changed...course correction!)
- Flash-forward/back scenes in an episode are shown chronologically.
- Juliette's character must wear low-cut tops.

Any I missed you can think of?

But the never ever said they couldn't mix FF's & FB's in one episode.

#321. Posted by: JoePike at March 15, 2008 1:44 PM

Re: The fake Oceanic 815. Here's a wacky idea for you... remember Ben's Magic Box? Instead of being ultra-powerful in the manner of a Bond villain, perhaps Ben is more like that dangerous kid from The Twilight Zone than can conjure up whatever he wishes. But he does it through Jacob and the Island. Could it be he actually created the fake plane out if thin air somehow? Maybe he can't always pull it off, but sometimes he can, through the elusive Magic Box. It's the same reason the Others got Locke's dad to appear there as if by magic... maybe it WAS "magic", or some kind of a science fiction explanation, rather than a mundane conspiratorial one. Perhaps the Island can give you whatever you want if you know how to ask for it. If it is revealed that Ben really is just a super-powerful super-rich guy who can afford fake plane crashes, I'm sure he got that way thanks to the Island's uncanny resources.

The other question is, if Ben has the resources to fake a plane crash, why can't he just assassinate Widmore? They must be well-matched indeed.)

#322. Posted by: catbarf at March 15, 2008 1:49 PM

Catbarf, Claire didn't die while still pregnant because she conceived OFF the island and was already well into her 3rd trimester. Jules is saying Sun will die because she DID conceive ON the island. The ultra-sound Juliet gave Sun proved that timing wise the kid had to have been conceived after the crash, not before.

#323. Posted by: JoePike at March 15, 2008 1:53 PM

I still haven't gotten that much further... but I must say:

In English class, we're reading Macbeth. So my teacher gave us a "THINK Now" (Like DO Now).

The question was...
"On the night Macbeth murders Duncan, strange occurrences in the natural world mirror the horrifying unnaturalness of Macbeth's deed. It is dark during the daytime, and owl kills a famcon, and Duncan's hourses go wild and eat each other.

If you were a writer and wanted to symbolize the horror of an event, what details from the natual world would you write about? List them."

The first thing I could think of for this was, "Cindy's Scarf jokes become stupid".

My teacher didn't get it.

Ugh... literally ONE NIGHT of being busy and there are 318 posts to catch up on!!!

My friend came over after school and she thinks all I ever talk about is LOST. (then again everyone else I know thinks that too) so she didn't exactly let me go on this.

I love reading them though. I have dance in a bit. Rats.

#324. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 15, 2008 1:54 PM

OK, Jin's stuff was a flashback. I give up! I can digest the FB/FF in a single episode now that I know it's fair game. But I really thought we were done with FBs. Sigh. I hope they continue to use them well or this could get really aggravating. I don't want to see Jack fight with his wife or Kate robbing a bank or Hurley's prom disaster or Locke screwing up his life in the past anymore.

This show really does demand all of your attention, unlike most TV. I have a couple of not-at-all-dumb friends who saw the season 3 finale and somehow missed the whole FF concept being introduced and even missed that Jack and Kate got off the island! I had to explain the whole thing to them. I think they were too drunk on Dharma beer...

#325. Posted by: catbarf at March 15, 2008 2:02 PM

"Captain Gault is a fictional sea captain created by English writer William Hope Hodgson. A captain for hire - Gault is a morally ambiguous and mysterious character. A collection of his stories can be found in the book Captain Gault, Being the Exceedingly Private Log of a Sea-Captain, published in 1917."

Source: Wikipedia/Lostpedia

#326. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 15, 2008 2:08 PM

@JoePike. Thanks for being on your toes for me. Now I think I'm the one who drank too much Dharma beer. I'm getting rusty on my S3 plot points. All I could remember about the Jules/Sun/Baby plot was Sun being happy at the ultrasound diagnosis in the Dharma station... I forgot that the joy was that it was Jin's baby, not that she was not going to die (she gets told she's terminal and she is mostly HAPPY, I forgot... I totally forgot!!!) OK, that flip-flops the expectations... Sun lives, Jin dies. Nice Lostian story irony there. Thanks for jump-starting my brain (still hurting from all that Dharma beer I drank watching the ep last night... well actually it was Pabst...)

#327. Posted by: catbarf at March 15, 2008 2:11 PM

Mmmmmmmmmm...warm, old Dharma beer...

#328. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 15, 2008 2:13 PM

Hey-All,
I'm new to this, so bear (not Panda or Polar) with me.
I have to say I enjoy Mac's reviews and this blog almost as much as Lost itself. It makes the show so much more enjoyable.

I agree with those who thought the Dr. was going to steal Sun's baby. Sooo glad they didn't. I figured Ben would want her because she was conceived on the Island and actually lived and she probably has some kind of powers because of that. Hate that Jin died/or is stuck on the Island. I, too, tell someone who has passed away, that I love them and miss them, but agree that the whole cemetery thing could be staged.

No offense to those that love them, but I can't stand Ben or Locke or Charlotte.
I wish Ben and Locke would take Charlotte out and then die killing each other. But what would Lost be if we didn't have someone to hate?

Oh,yeah, reallllly hate Michael. I was hoping the MOTB would be Walt and the only time we saw Michael would be in Walt's flashbacks from when they left the Island.

That's it for now and I really hope it's not Cindy's Scarf in the coffin :).

#329. Posted by: LostMamacita at March 15, 2008 2:15 PM

"Year of the Dragon" research (cont.)

YotD 1964: The affordable, yet exceptionally delicious, 'Apollo Bar' enters the market.

YotD 1976: Charlie Pace was born. (A person born in this year wears the crown of destiny, and is capable of great achievements IF he knows how to harness his tremendous energy, intelligence and talent.)

YotD 1988: A broadcast of the "Numbers" is detected in the South Pacific.

YotD 1988: Danielle Rousseau runs aground, kills crew, loses child to the Others.

YotD 1988: Alex Rousseau is born (A person born in this year enjoys being the center of attention, they also have a brave and charitable side to their personality. If a friend faces a problem or dilemma, she will be there to offer help).

YotD 1988: 19 yr old James Ford adopts the name "Sawyer" and cons a couple for $6,000.

YotD 2000: Guy who heard the "Numbers" broadcast in 1988 dies.

YotD 2000: Locke takes eight story flying leap. Loses use of legs.

YotD 2000: Sun & Jin marry. Jin's mother extorts Sun.

YotD 2000: Alvar Hanso makes several public appearances in Europe.

#330. Posted by: DocH at March 15, 2008 2:28 PM

Mac: I loved the "Next week she'll confront Ben about his bug eyes."

@ erons - 65
"My Lost memory may be WAY off, but IF Ben is behind the plane crash, could he have used the bodies from the Dharma purge when his dad died? Did they get rid of all those bodies, or would they have sufficed as stand ins for the Oceanic "deceased"?"

... Yes, you're LOST. memory is WAY OFF. He couldn't have used the bodies from the purge because:
1. Those bodies are in a ditch
2. There's only really skeleton's left.
3. Ben obviously staged that wayy before he showed Locke the ditch and shot him into it.
4. There definitely weren't 324 of them up for use... let alone on the island.
5. Just, no.

Why does everyone look like they have down syndrome?!?!?! This just shows that we're looking for flaws and overthinking everything.

Ji Yeon DOES NOT have DOWNS.

I'm not even sure your post was worth replying to.

@ 68 and 69
SUN AND JIN ARE KOREAN... not JAPANESE. gosh.

@ Scooby-Dude - 70
"Ben having the flight manifest and dossiers on all the passengers = in cahoots with Oceanic Airlines."

...Amen to that brotha.

_____

So uh... in Exodus Pt. 2, the others kidnap Walt on the same boat that they give Michael and Walt to leave on.

I'm not sure where I'm going with that one... just an observation.
_______

These posts are starting to annoy me. A lot of them are completely unfactual and too speculative.

(referring to the "noobs" who apparently don't know anything about LOST. and just watch it for fun or soemthing)

Which is precicely why I am going to strictly read the posts from the ones I respect aka Mac, meg, RNM, JoePike, vacc, shikotee, ealgumby and a bunch of other people.

I probably will end up not skipping over the other ones, but there were a few that ticked me off.

Similarly to my friend who thinks she knows a lot about LOST. but really, the knows SQUAT.

Maybe I get annoyed too easily.

When it comes to things other than LOST., I'm usually a chill person.

#331. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 15, 2008 2:35 PM

I just had a HUGE revelation. After reading a post above (forget which one, sorry) it hit me. Yes, maybe both flashes were flash forwards. Possibly, just possibly Sun killed Jin because he didn't show up at the birth, and instead went to another woman's bedside and gave HER the panda with the scarf for HER baby. I am on to something, no? I apologize if this was posted today. I will catch up now.

#332. Posted by: meg at March 15, 2008 2:41 PM

@ meg - 83
"It was also pretty interesting how Bernard referred to himself as on of the "good guys". Any significance there?"

... Good point! I have a feeling that that whole conversation with him and Jin will play a big role in the future.

@ Mister_Grimm - 94
That was an intense post. I think everything you said about Michael and Walt is possible... genius.

@ GatorGal - 96
Woah. I need to start watching the LOST. PopUpEditionOfEnlightment.

@ ChristinaLVT - 98
The name "Stanhope" is British English. It's pronounced like "Stannup".

That's about all I can say about that.

Wikipedia is a wonder. LOSTPEDIA = LIFE.

Seems like the Oceanic 6 are only friends with themselves. We haven't really seen them socialize with anyone else.

Only:
Kate - Nanny lady person
Sayid - Ben (and people on "the list" that he killed)

That's about it... I think. I might be wrong.

Oh yeah, I neglected to include PiecesofArzt in my "respect" list. He/She was supposed to be in there.

I miss Boone. He was cute and hot and ahh. But kinda creepy about Shannon as well. Whatever.

@ JoePike - 103
When I was watching, I was thinking, "JoePike must be eating his hat now." But then we saw the end. =/

But JoePike... you WILL eat your hat. =D (evil yet?)

I think Sun's delivery seemed to easy. Then again, the only ACTUAL delivery I've ever wittnessed was in a video we had to watch in bio last year called "the miracle of life". STUPIDEST thing I have EVER seen.

Can't really qualify as an expert in child birth.

@ Hurley - 110
"For ILBLXX: The anagram fro lima beans is Ben Salami ... just thought you'd like to know"

Haha... LOVE IT. Or it could be, Linus = Lima, and Beans = BEN! (With extra and missing letters).

Yours makes more sense. =)

@ GatorGal - 108
You got post 108!!!

Anyway, "Perhaps Harold Perrineau isn't playing Michael but rather a grown-up version of Walt. How freaky would that be?"

That would be pretty freaky. But I'm not sure if I agree with it considering what we know and scenes to next week. Great idea though.

"Maybe Regina plummeted to her watery death b/c she was distraught over her dead lover...Naomi. Remember Naomi's bracelet engraved with "I'll always be with you. RG" Could that RG be Regina perhaps?"

Also great idea! I knew Naomi seemed lesbian! Now I take back the fact that I look like Naomi (not to be sexist/homophobic/anything else you want to call it).

@ chopkins - 109
I pretty much agree with everything you said. =D

@ The Duf - 113
Exactly.

@ erons - 117
Nope, I'm loyal to Mac.

OH, can't forget Cecil Rose. Definitely on the respect list.

@ DocH - 130
Aaron is not confirmed in any fashion. The only one that knows about Aaron in SoCal (so far) are Kate, her Mom, Jack and the Nanny (maybe the lawyer). When I see Aaron flying across the Pacific every weekend on his Golden Pass, demanding that the flight attendant top-off his sippy cup, catching a glimpse of Big Bird's obit in the Toddler Times', hoping the plane crashes - that's when I'll believe Aaron is an OA Sixer.
_____________
Aaron: "Mommie Kate? We have to go back!"

Kate: "Back to the island Aaron? Why? Do you miss our friends there, or Uncle Ben?"

Aaron: "nooooo... I forgot my blankie..." "

...LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Oh yeah, you're also on the respect list.

Wow, I shoud have never even brought that up. Now I feel bad for forgeting people.

@ lostsox - 133
Yeah... Hurley did have to buy 2 seats! So does that mean there were actually 323 people on the plane?

And you lostsox!

#333. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 15, 2008 3:24 PM

I was struck by the conversation between Jin and Bernard while fishing. Bernard tells Jin that, despite the fact that staying on the island may cure her of her cancer, Rose is willing to get off the island because it's the right thing to do. This led me to think about why on earth Sun and Jin would split up from each other, allowing Sun to go back to Korea and Jin to wind up???

I put question marks there because I don't think for one second that Jin is dead. The death date on his tomb stone reads the day of O815 flight, leading the public at large to think that he died on the flight. Since we know that's not true, obviously, that death date is a sham. But, I am not entirely convinced that he is really dead either....I think Bernard's "it's the right thing to do" comment bears more significance than it may seem.

If it's the "right thing to do" to get off the island, I think that Sun and Jin are going to be faced with the dilemma that there's room for only one of them to get outta Dodge, and, since it's the "right thing to do", Jin will sacrifice his chance at rescue to allow Sun and the baby to make it back home, knowing this means that he may never see Sun again and will never know his daughter.

If I am not mistaken, neither Sun nor Hurley made any direct reference to Jin being dead. Sure, they put up a good front being solemn and dressing appropriately for visiting a grave, but I think Sun was crying "I miss you" to him...nothing directly about him actually being dead.

If Jack has cried more than once that "we hve to go back", I think Sun would have a pretty good argument in that camp too if it meant seeing her beloved Jin again.

Sun and Jin's love story is one for the books. I was crying like a baby at the end of this one, not because I too think that Jin is dead but because I whole heartedly believe in the love these two fine actors create between their characters. My heart broke for her.

I swear I tried to read through the 300-some-odd posts there were before I typed this. If I repeated anything here, my bad.

@265 Paul F...that's some fine work there noting between the lima beans and the cyanide...could that have led to Minkowski's downfall too?

Namaste...and y'all have a good day now!

#334. Posted by: Vikki at March 15, 2008 3:32 PM

If you read the Forums, you can skip this post, as it's there too.

Great review as always, Mac! I do have to say, though, that I don't think Kate was "stupid stupid stupid." (I guess if you're a Juliet apologist, I'm a Kate apologist.) Look at it from Kate's perspective: Juliet lied through her teeth to Kate when they found themselves handcuffed together last season. Juliet definitely hasn't shared all she knows (even w/Jack). I'm sure Kate remembers that the Others kidnapped Claire & experimented on her. Charlotte knocked Kate out rather than explain why she & Daniel were on their way to the Tempest. (One would think that Charlotte might realize that if she said that she & Daniel were trying to keep the island inhabitants from being gassed to death, she'd gain a lot of support & trust.) And it's apparent that the Freighterous Four haven't landed on the island to rescue the Lostaways. Kate likes Sun; they're friends. She (Kate) is trying to protect her friend (Sun). That's not to say that I think Juliet is evil, but I do agree w/hurling that her revelation of Sun's affair to Jin was out of line.

So what did we learn from this episode? Well, as DOC was end of October 2004, Ji Yeon's birth must have taken place in late July/early August 2005. So the Oceanic 6 must get off the island before then, & based on Ji Yeon's size, Hurley's visit to Sun & Ji Yeon would take place in late summer/early fall 2005. (Although if Sun went into premature labor, her flashforward could have taken place in late May or early June & Hurley's visit mid-summer.) In terms of the order of flash-forwards, as Hurley appears to be pretty together, I would say that his return to Santa Rosa takes place after his visit to Sun, so his visions of Charlie & the game of horse w/Jack are post-Sun visit.

Until the end of the episode, when the bodyguard at the door of the hospital room says, "It's a boy," I was thinking that Jin's & Sun's flashes were both forward, but after that I figured Jin's was a flashback. Okay, neat storytelling technique, to keep us thinking that both Jin & Sun made it off the island. But so what? What was the point of having a Jin flashback here? The one thing that stood out about it was the incident on the street as it paralleled what happened to Desmond in "The Constant." Both Jin & Des were jostled for no apparent reason & they both dropped something that kept them from communicating for a time (Des for just a few minutes; Jin until he could get another cell phone). What's the deal? Why would those incidents be highlighted? Would anyone really get into a taxi & drive away w/a giant panda in the backseat? Even though I'm a country mouse, surely even in the big city the person would notice the panda, realize that someone has already spoken for the taxi, & get out—unless they were actively malicious.

The dates on the tombstone could be explained by Sun's family thinking both she & Jin had died in the crash. They put up a joint memorial tombstone (no bodies to bury) w/their birth & perceived death dates. Sun returned from the island & Jin didn't, so the death date is still correct for him in the eyes of the world. Whether Jin is really dead or just stuck on the island is unknown. If we count Charlie as one of the Elite Eight survivors (as he was heard by Penny well after the crash date) & Claire as the other (because she had to be alive to give birth to Aaron), that would round out all of the supposed 815 survivors (the Oceanic Six being Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Aaron, & Sun). I suppose if Kate were claiming that she was Aaron's biological mother, though, that Claire would then be removed from the Elite Eight.

Being the name maven that I am, I've been trying to find the meaning of Ji Yeon. So far no luck on the whole name, although one reference to "Ji" says it means "wisdom." I did find a site that says both Jin & Sun are unisex names. "Jin" means "a jewel" & Sun means "goodness." (I guess we can tell which side of good & evil these two are.)

I missed some of the dialogue between Capt. Galt (or is it Gault?), Sayid, & Desmond in the scene w/the black box, but from the episode description over on Lostpedia said, it appears that the Capt.'s dialogue was ambiguous about Ben staging the fake 815 wreckage:

"When they meet Captain Gault, Sayid and Desmond begin to get an idea of the freighter crew’s mission. The captain shows them the flight data recorder (the black box) of Flight 815 and tells them it was obtained by Charles Widmore. He explains that the wreckage was found in the Sunda Trench and included 324 dead bodies. He then explains it was obviously a staged find, but that it is frightening to think about the fact that somebody has the the power and resources to do such a thing, especially about finding 324 bodies. The captain remarks that this is just one of the reasons they need to capture Benjamin Linus."

So Galt does not explicitly say that Ben staged the wreckage, but he certainly implied it...possibly to be misleading.

Speaking of misleading, we don't know for sure that "Kevin" was the one that put the "Don't trust the captain" note through the door for Sayid & Des. I was also thinking that it was Walt pounding on the pipes.

The apparent rift between Hurley & Sun & the other Oceanic 6 is intriguing. Perhaps it ties into Hurley's later expressed regret to Jack about going w/Locke—at the time of Sun's flashforward, Hurley still thinks it was the right thing to do to go w/Locke. But it's curious that Hurley, who went w/Locke, ends up aligning w/Sun, who stayed w/Jack.

One thing that struck me was at the very beginning of Sun's flashback, she was preparing to go somewhere. It looked as though she had a bag packed & she was applying lipstick. Where would she have been going so late in her pregnancy? When Miss Longthought was on the way, I wasn't supposed to travel after seven months, & I had no health concerns. I would think that Sun's doctors would be very cautious w/her health after spending a good portion of her pregnancy on a (supposedly) deserted island w/no medical care.

#335. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 15, 2008 4:05 PM

Oh, one other little tidbit of info—while on my Ji Yeon name search, I looked up Kahana, the freighter's name. In Hawaiian, it means "turning point"; in Aramaic, it means "priest." From there it was just a quick jump to Aaron, as Aaron in the Old Testament is the first high priest. But the freighter being a turning point is certainly a valid perspective.

#336. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 15, 2008 4:21 PM

I thought it was worth posting this explanation that my son came up with. I did look through the posts but didn't catch anything like this.
Jin's Panda shopping episode happens in 2000 based on the 'year of the dragon' comment made by the shopkeeper. This happened 2 months after he married Sun while he was working for Sun's father. Sun's father told him to buy a Panda and deliver it to the hospital because someone important (ambassador) was having a baby. They show Sun in labor at the same time to confuse us even though it is really happening in 2004 after she got off the island. Jin is really dead when the baby is born. Sun calls out for dead Jin only because she is disoriented.

#337. Posted by: LostfanRI at March 15, 2008 4:42 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought #335: Looks like we had similar thoughts, as usual :) My next post is notes from a second viewing of the episode. Sorry for repeating a few things that you (and others here) have already covered.

According to Doc Jenson, Ji Yeon means either ''delay'' or ''flower of wisdom.''

#338. Posted by: Clementine at March 15, 2008 4:45 PM

More comments after watching the episode again:

On the freighter deck, Keamy asks Frank if he’s “ready,” and tells him not to be late. Frank says, “I’ll be up.” As Keamy approached Frank, he looked around to see if anyone was watching. Is there a mutiny brewing?

The secret note that told Des and Sayid, “Don’t trust the captain” was written in big block letters. I know this is reaching, but it did look more like something a 10-year old would write (Walt). Or a person trying to disguise their handwriting, I guess.

What is Daniel working on when Sun confronts him on the beach? If that’s a disassembled satellite phone, there is substantially more wiring inside than I would have expected.

Nice to hear Bernard put into words why he and Rose stayed with Jack and the “rescue” group instead of going with Locke.

Nitpicking: When Gault reveals to Desmond that the ship belongs to Widmore, Des looks shocked but Sayid just stands there. Doesn’t even ask a question. Are we to believe that Des told Sayid all about Papa Widmore at some point?

Nitpicking#2: Even after they reconcile on the island, Jin asks no questions of Sun as to why the baby is in danger, or what the prognosis is.

When creepy freighter doc is leading Des and Sayid to their new room, he says it’s on the quiet part of the ship. Des replies, “But this ship isn’t moving.” Freighter doc says, “Well, if you say so.” What the heck does that mean? Speculation: Is the ship time-traveling due to proximity to the island?

My favorite character in this episode was the Kahana. That spooky freighter is right out of a Stephen King novel.

When Jin comes to the tent to talk with Sun, he says “I know why you did it. I know the man..” and then a pause, “…I used to be. Before this island.” I thought he was going to say he knew the man with whom she had the affair. I wonder if he made the connection that Mr. Paik sent him to kill Jae Lee, his wife’s lover?

Is it “pink for girl, blue for boy” in most countries? I don’t know why, but I assumed that was a Western cultural tradition.

Regarding the FB/FF combination, it was an interesting twist. But I do agree with everyone who questioned the relevance of the Jin flashback. Even on second viewing, I can’t think of a reason to include it, other than to trick the audience. And, especially upon second viewing, I find it poorly executed. Here are some examples of stretching the veracity of the story only to set up the “reveal” at the end:

•Sun’s nurse recognizes and identifies her as one of the famous Oceanic Six, but doesn’t look the least surprised when Sun asks the doctor to contact Jin, her husband.
•The store clerk congratulates Jin on the baby and asks, “Boy or girl?” and Jin says, “I don’t know yet.” Sure, he just wants to get out of the store, but most people would probably reply that it was a gift for someone else’s child.
•Neither the cab driver nor the passenger takes exception to driving away with a giant panda sitting upright in the backseat (although it did provoke a chuckle on both viewings).

But after re-watching the heart-wrenching scene between Jin and Sun in the tent, and Sun’s exposition at the cemetery, I have to believe that Jin is alive back on the island. Because I want it to be so.

#339. Posted by: Clementine at March 15, 2008 4:47 PM

Something else I wanted to mention:

I can’t conclusively determine if Desmond should be able to recognize Michael, but I’m going to guess not.

In the beginning of the 2nd season, when Locke, Jack and Kate discover Desmond in the hatch, Michael is on the raft and Walt has just been kidnapped by the Others. On the island, Desmond runs off into the jungle (to find his sailboat and attempt to leave). When Michael’s raft makes it to shore, he and Jin and Sawyer are kidnapped by the Tailies. So, no contact has occurred between Desmond and Michael at this point.

Desmond unintentionally returns to the island in his sailboat at the end of the 2nd season, drunk as a skunk. Michael is on the beach when Jack, Sayid and Sawyer swim out to the boat. Later, after nightfall, Jack and Desmond (who is still drinking heavily) have a discussion on the beach. Sayid approaches Jack with his knowledge that Michael is conning them, and his plan to take Desmond’s sailboat around the island in a flanking maneuver. The next morning, Jack, Michael, Sawyer, Hurley and Kate set off for the Other’s camp. At Pala Ferry, Michael and Walt sail off into the sunset at a heading of 325.

There were no scenes where Desmond and Michael appear together and no implication of any contact between them. Speculatively, if Desmond did see Michael between the time he arrived back at the beach and the time Michael left in the next morning, Desmond was probably too drunk to remember him.

For anyone who has not revisited past episodes lately, I would recommend the 2nd season finale (“Live Together, Die Alone”) as a good refresher at this point. It contains most of the back-story for Desmond and Michael relevant to the past few episodes.

#340. Posted by: Clementine at March 15, 2008 5:34 PM

Someone above mentioned the bracelet that Naomi was wearing. In Sayid's FF when he had to kill the woman he had slept with, at the end of that scene he went over to her and touched the silver bracelet on her arm. I don't think anyone has mentioned that bracelet since that episode, but I have always wondered if they were matching bracelets, or the same bracelet. They looked similar to me. Have I missed something? Does anyone have comments about that?

#341. Posted by: cissy at March 15, 2008 6:12 PM

@ RNM - 155
LMFAOLACWIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(not that many people get that from me)

Laughing
My
Flimsy
Arms
Off
Like
A
Chicken
When
It
Snorts

...I made that up.

LOVE it!!! S-C-A-R-F.

@ chopkins - 162
I might have misunderstood you guys, but there is no Ben + Rosseau = Alex.

Unless of course you're saying he did in fact master the time traveling, went back in the past, banged up Rosseau, and they made Alex.

Doubt it. Rosseau wouldn't do that to her husband. Alex was just raised by Ben. But that could explain why Ben loves her so much.

Though he does in fact love me even more.

Bottom line: Rosseau came on to the island when she was 7 months pregnant. As far as we know, Ben is NOT Alex's father... he just raised her.

@ Hanapana - 164
No. (Read 331)

Jin + Sun = CUTE. (I wasn't referring to her daughter. I hate kids. Meaning, little kids. I'll probably hate teenagers too when I stop being one.)

@ Mr_Naysayer - 171
You KNOW you love it... I agree with everyone that says you're doing this on purpose. You like to cause discussion.

What better way to talk more about the scarf than to insult the scarf? What better way to talk more about the panda... (I'm not sure how to end that sentence)... Um... Than to make a panda joke?

Scott is dead, and Steve is alive.
http://www*lostpedia*com/wiki/Scott_and_steve

I guess for me, the final member will be
1. Steve
2. Frogurt
3. or Cindy's Scarf

@ Nathan - 176
Good back up... but that doesn't explain why Kate is taking care of Aaron. Unless of course they somehow made the public believe that Aaron was Kate's and Claire agreed to it for his protection or something like that.

@ Mac
Seems like you're starting to slack a little. Just kidding.

@ yoraylee - 188
Jin told them his name was Jin Soo Kwan. He wouldn't have said that if everyone thinks he's dead. He probably would have gone for a different identity. This is why Jin's portion was most likely a flashback.

@ welh - 202
Walt --> Michael

@ Mr_Naysayer - 208
You are quite the comic. Lol. (I try to avoid saying "lol" on this blog.)

@ lostlova - 212
Yes, it was explained. Rosseau said in "Exodus Part 1 and 2" that she saw "black smoke" before the others came and took Alex away from her. Therefore, Ben stole Alex.

Maybe that explination wasn't clear or to vague.

@ RNM - 238
So since everyone thinks Regina is lesbian... then she must have "gotten with" that girl that works for "the economist" and that Sayid banged up. Becuase she had the same bracelet as Naomi did.

@ JoePike - 239
"School is almost out...prepare for an "ilovebenjaminlinusxx" posting onslaught! (Don't worry kid - we're looking forward to it.)"

... Haha. I'm not that mean! And by the way, school's out at 2:25 (eastern time) -- for future reference. I get home around 3.

@ Kate - 262
"When Sun gave birth to her little screaming bundle of joy, didn't she look over and see Jin in the doorway? I assumed it was a hallucination (ie: something to confuse us even more), but still..."

... No, she thought it was Jin, then they showed a close-up and it wasn't. He was just some random dude that got scared and left.

JoePike - I'm trying to be a little more nice now... It's really hard after reading stupid comments... I just find the urge to bash them.

@ btly - 275
Yes he did... Mr. Paik made him.

Oh wait... I remember he didn't want to... he just beat the shit out of them. Then Mr. Paik took care of the job. But I think he actually did kill Jae (the guy that Sun had an affair with).

@ bcre8ve - 280
You are right. The original place Bernard took Rose to only required one visit. Sine the island is "the right" place for her, she doesn't have to stay there to stay cured, she just needed to go there, which she did.
- 286
"Captain = Darth Freighter"
Niceeeeeee.

Meg seems to be starting to have a little somethin' somethin' for Mr_Naysayer... Me, JoePike.

But I get BEN.

@ meg - 294
If you were referring to me as the "high school girl", what exactly were you implying by you're "Where's the high school girl?? I think I saw her on a Dateline NBC special!!" comment? =D (evil?)

@ meg - 298
That spelling was quite irritating. Haha.

#342. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 15, 2008 6:12 PM

@cissy #341: Regarding a bracelet, here is a quote from the producers, courtesy of Doc Jenson at EW:

***************************
DAMON LINDELOF: Naomi's bracelet in the Sayid episode is a key point here. I got some e-mails from people who wondered if there was a connection between Naomi's bracelet and the bracelet worn by the woman Sayid killed in his flash-forward. There is no connective tissue. Sometimes a bracelet is just a bracelet. We just thought it would be a cool emotional touchstone for Sayid; Elsa's bracelet reminds him of Naomi. But some people interpreted that, ''Is there something more there?'' We might need to address that.
***************************

#343. Posted by: Clementine at March 15, 2008 6:30 PM

4 8 15 16 23 42 ...

It sure has been a while since we've heard a peep about the numbers, right? I mean, occassionally one or two of them pop up here and there, but not much has been said lately about them in general. Hopefully they don't get put on the back burner for too long... and speakin' of the simmering low on the back burner, where has Smokie been? Remember early on in the series, he was knocking down trees, chasin' and killin' the Losties, and also flashing lightning every so often...? Did anyone notice when Jin was pouring milk for his cereal if that was Smokie on the back of the Dharma milk carton?

#344. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 15, 2008 6:31 PM

So.... brace yourselves, as this will contain some heavy duty analysis!

My Lost re-watch journey has brought me to Season 4, which now leads me to the terrain of flash-forwards. For those of you who have not watched recently, I recommend reading, as I will recap some key specifics.

So far, tons of us have argued about so many different things, one of the biggest being the identity of the Oceanic 6.

As of this moment, we know for certain 5 - Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, and Sun (ie they have specifically been identified as an Oceanic Six member within a flashforward). Some think Aaron is the last member, while others think it could be someone else. At this stage, I would like to suggest that there is no point (other than fun) in trying to figure out the last member, as it literally could be anyone!

What I would like to focus on is the issue at hand - how did the O6 leave, why are they lying, and what would make them want to go back to the island?

The flashforwards will be coming to us like pieces of a puzzle, and in time these questions will be answered.

I would like to share some "play-by-play" of some ff's (flashforwards), and later some thoughts...

For now, this is in specific reference to S3E22 and S4E1.

"Through the Looking Glass" starts with bearded future Jack who is a mess on board an Oceanic flight. Remember - this is the Jack who wants to return to the island. He asks for a drink, but is given a folded paper instead, which is placed on the seat next to him. It catches his eye, he reads it, then rips out that portion. Next he is driving a vehicle (presumedly from the airport to home in LA), and he pulls over while on a bridge. While pulled over, he unfolds the newspaper article, reads it, crumples it, closes his eyes and cries in despair. He tries calling someone (Kate) - "Hey... It's me..... I just read...." He hangs up. He is crying throughout all this. He leaves the car, climbs on the bridge rail, ready to jump. As he is about to jump, he looks up, and mutters "Forgive me." There is a crash behind him, and he moves to go help...

At a later ff, Jack is in his car, driving and reading newspaper clip. He parks, and once again dials Kate, hangs up. He leaves car, crosses street (nearly gets hit), and enters funeral home (weird that outer door would take you straight into the viewing room). He talks to the manager, who reveals that no-one showed up. When asked if "friend or family" Jack replies "neither". The manager offers to open the casket, but Jack says no. The manager leaves the room and says "take your time". Jack approaches the casket, sadly touches it. He pulls out his pill container, and takes his last one. He leaves.

Finall ff, Jack is all boozed up sitting on his couch, maps all over the place (implying he has been trying to find the island). He is once again dialing his cel, only this time Kate answers. Jack says "It's me" followed by "Don't hang up, please." "I know what you said (possibly a reference to Eggtown conversation)...I just need to see you.. please." They make plans to meet at the airport.

Jack is waiting by airport - Kate arrives, and they have some playful banter. Kate asks why Jack called, and he pulls out the newspaper clip, and asks if Kate had heard about the death. Kate coldly replies "Why would I go to the funeral?" Jack just nods his head. Jack then confides that he has been flying often with the golden pass, hoping to crash. With every bump of turbulence, he "prays to go back". Kate says "This is not going to change" and Jack interjects "No... I'm sick of lying.... We made a mistake. " Kate tells him that she has to go, because "he's gonna be wondering where I am" Jack grabs her and says "We were not supposed to leave" and she responds "Yes we were." She pulls away, says good bye, and walks back to her. Jack says "We have to go back Kate." She pulls out... and he says again "We have to go back".

re: Casket

As many have mentioned - it will not be anyone from the O6. The O6 are celebrities, and would attract media attention - not an empty house.

This person is likely friendless outside of the island, or the name that they are using is an alias, which would explain why no one shows up at the wake. Heck - it might not even be anyone from the island - they might just have some sort of connection to someone from there.

The person himself is not that important - Kate either dislikes this person, or is ambivalent. Jack is not really there to morn the person - he is simply distraught because he can't return to the island, no matter how hard he tries. His attending the funeral is more an act of desperation, much like his flying every week-end and hoping to crash.

My guess - It could be John Locke's mom. She strikes me as the type to not have many friends. Jack attends because he is grasping at straws, being unable to succeed in returning to the island. He is so messed up and desperate that he will even attend a wake for a relative of someone who is on the island. He just needs to connect! It would explain Kate's reaction - why would she go, as she does not even know her!

I'd just like to re-iterate that it is not the death of that specific person that is the cause of Jack's suicide attempt - it is but a trigger. You can tell by his mannerisms in the funeral parlor (and his response of "neither") - the person is not important to him.

re: depression

In S4 early ff's, Jack is seemingly fine with being back. It is over time that he breaks down. What is it that will take him from A to B? It is so bad that his is very close to ending his life. Jack completely believes that leaving the island was a mistake, and can no longer stand the lies of the Oceanic Six.

I'd now like to move forward with S4 E1.

re: Institution Hurley

While in the institution, Hurley is outside painting, and is warned by a guy in a robe (who kinda hides his face) that there is a guy watching him. Hurley looks, and it is short haired Charlie (with no gun-powder scar above his left eye). Hurley is freaked, but Charlie asks him not to run, saying that he wants to talk to him. They briefly talk about Charlie's previous appearance at the store which caused Hurley to freak out and go into car chase mode. Hurley does not want to have an "imaginary conversation", and Charlie replies "I am dead.... but I'm also here." He slaps Hurley to prove it, and they both sit down.

After talk regarding Charlie's death, Charlie says, "Now you have to do something... but you're hiding from it. That's the real reason you ran when you saw me in the store. You knew I was here to tell you..." Hurley snaps back into disbelief that Charlie is there, closes his eyes and threatens to countdown, believing Charlie will be gone. During the countdown, Charlie says "Don't do this" "They need you" "They need you Hugo" "You know they need you". Hugo opens his eyes and Charlie is gone.

How you read into this depends on what you think of Hurley. Is he crazy and imagining this all, or is there something else? Can the island really be reaching out to Hurley via an image of Charlie? Or is this but a manifestation of his guilt for leaving the island and lying about it, much like Dave was a manifestation of guilt for the accident that encouraged Hugo to resolve his problems by eating?

Later, Jack visits Hurley at the institution, and they discuss several things. Hurley asks if the reporters are leaving him alone, and Jack indicates that he is still recognized, and that he is thinking about growing a beard (so as not to be recognized). Hurley then asks Jack why he really came, "to see if I went nuts... if I was gonna tell?" Jack replies "Are you?" Hurley does not respond, and Jack indicates that he has to run. Hurley apologizes for going with Locke, and then says "I don't think we did the right thing Jack. I think IT wants us to come back. It's gonna do everything it can..." Jack yells "We're never going back!!" Jack walks away, and Hurley says "Never say never dude".

So - Much like far future Jack, Hurely seems to shift from being fine with leaving the island. He feels guilt for the people that were left behind ("They need you Hugo"), and the lies that the O6 are using with regards to what happened. His last line is quite crucial, as we know that Jack will change his opinion regarding returning to the island.

Anyways - c'est toute for now. Will re-watch the next ones and continue...

#345. Posted by: shikotee at March 15, 2008 10:15 PM

Okay, I will keep this short, because I know I tend to write long posts ...

The Jin scenes are NOT in 2000! They are current (2004).

I have a few snaps from the show posted at:

tinyurl*com/3xqrn8

The first one is Sun's ring (still hoping someone can translate what it says on the bag), but not pertinent to this discussion.

The second one shows Jin running out of the store toward the cab, the first time we see him in the flash-whatever ...

Please note the CAR parked directly behind him ... it is a Toyota Matrix ... not introduced until 2003! I do not believe the producers would make such an obvious mistake like this ... I have snaps of numerous other cars from his scenes which I have not yet positively IDed, but also believe to be post-2000 models.

Jin is NOT in 2000 ... his scenes are NOT flashbacks.

#346. Posted by: ealgumby at March 15, 2008 10:20 PM

Again trying to keep this short ...

At the same site ref'd above, the last two pics are of Sun and Jin entering the hospital separately ...

Note the TREE by the door (I know the Jin snap is kinda blurry, but if you rewatch the scene, you'll see what I mean). They are going through the same door, with the same tree in the same spot. It would be a bit of a stretch to suppose it's an artificial tree that has stayed in place for four years!

They are entering the same hospital, and they are there at the same time!

#347. Posted by: ealgumby at March 15, 2008 10:30 PM

A word on the "whooshes" ...

Apparently the note on the enhanced version about existence of whooshes only denoting flash-backs, and lack of whooshes flash-forwards, is wrong.

In every scene involving Sun and Jin, save the very last scene with Sun and Hurley, there is a whoosh before and after. In the joint Sun/Jin flash scenes, there is a whoosh going into Sun's scene, and a whoosh leaving Jin's scene. In Sun's third scene (when she gives birth), we have the whooshes, and no accompanying Jin scene. Same with Jin's solo third and final flash scene.

Either this means something, or the enhanced version comments cannot be considered canon ... which is it?

Even if you still believe Jin's scenes are flash-backs, then how do you explain the whooshes with Sun's third scene? Something is amiss.

#348. Posted by: ealgumby at March 15, 2008 10:40 PM

re:→ 346.
I do not believe the producers would make such an obvious mistake like this ...
_________
Here is my take...
"The writers' strike begins when?... oh crap... ROLL FILM!... ROLL FILM!... five, four, three, two, one... CUT! Alright folks... that's a wrap. See you... whenever."

#349. Posted by: DocH at March 15, 2008 10:41 PM

Yikes - so much serious analysis - I gotta toss in a moment of mental relaxation!

I think I've rather made it clear that I am a South Park fan. Such a disturbing show at times, but they really do make some important social comments about the world we live in that are brilliant.

Anyways - for those of you playing at home, I've made a link between our very own Scarfie (Cindy's Scarf) and South Park's Towelie (Smart Towel RG-400).

To stop the Looking Glass from jamming, Charlie enters the code, set to "Good Vibrations", which was programmed by a musician. I couldn't help but think of the scene where Towelie needs to enter the code to enter the secret base....

____________________________

CARTMAN
Alright, I think we go over there. [the Secret Government Base entrance is shown with Towelie and the boys approaching
the gate]
TOWELIE
Let's see. No.
STAN
Come on, Towelie! The guy said you have
the security system in your memory banks.
TOWELIE
Hey it's been a long time!
CARTMAN
You just have no long-term memory 'cause
you get high all the time!
TOWELIE
Don't preach to me, fatso!
CARTMAN
I can preach to you all I want, 'cause
you're stupid!

TOWELIE
You're stupid!
CARTMAN
Yeah, and you're a towel!
TOWELIE
You're a towel! Just let me get high.
I know I can remember if I get high.

STAN
Oh, God damnit! Alright, fine! Here's
your stupid lighter.

TOWELIE
Hold on. Wait a second That's it!

KYLE
That's it?

TOWELIE
Yeah. That's the melody to "Funky Town."
Won't ya take me down... to Funky Town.

STAN
No, Towelie, the entry code!

TOWELIE
For what?

STAN
God-damnit

__________________________

Basically, instead of entering the code, stoned Towelie plays the beat of "Funkytown" on the key pad.

Anyways everybody...

"Don't forget to bring a scarf!"

#350. Posted by: shikotee at March 15, 2008 10:42 PM

If anything I have just posted has been explained elsewhere, I apologize, but haven't seen these issues adequately addressed here ...

Finally, my play time ... If Jin is off-island in 2004, what is his status? I believe (no proof, just speculating, unless the Theory Nazi says I can't) that Jin's old phone and Elsa's old pager are related (why the old comm tech? ... I have no idea). Specifically, I believe future Sayid and future Jin are going to end up on opposites sides ... Sayid working for Ben, and Jin working for Widmore/Paik(?).

Something tragic obviously happened to Sayid, based on Ben's snide comment about him letting his feelings get in the way at the end of The Economist. I think something equally tragic happened to Jin, returning him to his "old" personality in the future, and keeping him from Sun.

#351. Posted by: ealgumby at March 15, 2008 10:48 PM

@DocH/349

Sorry, but with all the meticulous attention to detail in this show, it's just not plausible to me that they wouldn't have parked a few ten-year old cars on the street ... if it was supposed to be a flash-back.

Not a flash-back.

#352. Posted by: ealgumby at March 15, 2008 10:56 PM

@346 Posted by: ealgumby

There are tons and tons of production errors in Lost, though many are not obvious unless you really are looking for them.

You did not mention that while in the toy-store, there are some toys that are in the background that are post-2000, as has been observed by other detail oriented people.

You have to understand the complexities that are involved in the process of making a show. A prop-master will do the best that they can to be as authentic as possible, but they do not always have the luxury of analyzing/cross referencing every object that is involved in a shoot.

Or sometimes, things are mucked up while editing. Watch S4E1, where Jack visits Hurley and plays hoops. Outside the window, you will notice a larger set woman walking by. Much later, just as Jack is about to leave, you see her again (walking the same direction).

This is more likely a production error - not a sign that there is a time-loop incursion outside of the gym!

Anyways - just want to remind you that the Lost production crew is far from perfect....

#353. Posted by: shikotee at March 15, 2008 11:02 PM

Regarding time shifts btw on/off island - I don't think this is a repeat, sorry if it is

On the boat, Sayid said they'd been there 3 days. In a scene right after that, on the beach, Jack said that Sayid had been gone 3 days.
We know there was some sort of time jump on the way to the boat, but it would seem that beyond that first shift (maybe you go through a time bubble surface leaving the island) that time progresses the same on and off island.

Another thought regarding time & a bubble that causes time shifts. Maybe the submarine was used for travel because there is sort of a bubble around the island that you can go under, but not through or over. Of course I have no idea what sort of bubble this would be.

Ben's secret room in his house, with the money and the suits, passports, etc - I think that there is a way to leave the island directly from this room. How else would he explain a nifty suit instead of his usual island clothes. His dating life obviously wasn't working out... So, if there is a secret way off the island, and it was, perhaps, a tunnel to the submarine directly from Ben's house, maybe that also supports the bubble being on the surface.

Anyways, those are just a couple of thoughts.

BTW, I think shikotee nailed the Jin/Sun grief thing at post 24.

#354. Posted by: Helen at March 15, 2008 11:04 PM

→ 352. Posted by: ealgumby
Sorry, but with all the meticulous attention to detail in this show, it's just not plausible to me that they wouldn't have parked a few ten-year old cars on the street ... if it was supposed to be a flash-back.
________
sorry for the glib reply @→ 349.
but everything points to a 2000 Jin FB and a 2005 Sun FF. The "literary techinique" they employed was obvious. They hooked us throughout the episode on the pregnancy points AND THEN they reversed the point with the birth and funeral scenes at the end. They even gave us "hooks" during the story to bite, or not bite on. Year of the Dragon was the big one. Wedding ring and wed 2 months ago another. The FACT that we never see Jin/Sun together - in her FF or his FB. Hooks, hooks, hooks! They said we see OA6 FF's for all that FFed during that person's "person-centric" story. So far Jack, Hurley, Kate, Sayid, Sun. We have seen centric FB Juliet and FB "traitor tots". We have seen future Ben & future Aaron but they weren't the centric... and Jin wasn't future Jin because he was "dead" in a very definitely FF Sun... which makes his centric a FB centric.

#355. Posted by: DocH at March 15, 2008 11:29 PM

→ 352. Posted by: ealgumby
Sorry, but with all the meticulous attention to detail in this show, it's just not plausible to me that they wouldn't have parked a few ten-year old cars on the street ... if it was supposed to be a flash-back.
________
sorry for the glib reply @→ 349.
but everything points to a 2000 Jin FB and a 2005 Sun FF. The "literary techinique" they employed was obvious. They hooked us throughout the episode on the pregnancy points AND THEN they reversed the point with the birth and funeral scenes at the end. They even gave us "hooks" during the story to bite, or not bite on. Year of the Dragon was the big one. Wedding ring and wed 2 months ago another. The FACT that we never see Jin/Sun together - in her FF or his FB. Hooks, hooks, hooks! They said we see OA6 FF's for all that FFed during that person's "person-centric" story. So far Jack, Hurley, Kate, Sayid, Sun. We have seen centric FB Juliet and FB "traitor tots". We have seen future Ben & future Aaron but they weren't the centric... and Jin wasn't future Jin because he was "dead" in a very definitely FF Sun... which makes his centric a FB centric.

#356. Posted by: DocH at March 15, 2008 11:41 PM

@ Catbarf -

Doc touched on it, but we have already had two Flashback episodes this season. The Freighter Tots and Juliet were both FB. Also, Last season had a Flashforward in the finale. All that to say I don't think the Lost creators intended everything from seasons 1 through 3 to be FB and From 4 on to be FF. Just my opinion however.


I figured it out. iloveben has to fit in all her posting after school and before bedtime. jk.

#357. Posted by: Not an Other at March 15, 2008 11:48 PM

@345 Shikotee Thanks for the great posts

@346-248 ealgumby thanks for the great input. I'm beginning to understand what we don't understand.

And thanks to everybody that's helping to figure this one out. I hope they do a podcase and get us on the same page. It's getting very hard to focus on what's important. If Jin's "was" a FF then it opens a whole new can of "panda's", and this is distracting us from what's important.

Mac - Thanks for putting up with us. Your still the best in my book.

And where's the soup Nazi when you need him anyway.

#358. Posted by: SamFin at March 16, 2008 12:54 AM

This is a test post. Nothing to see here (we upgraded the servers last night and I'm checking to make sure everything is working properly ...)

#359. Posted by: mac at March 16, 2008 7:55 AM

@ealgumby re Matrix

One thing to check is the Toyota Matrix release date in other countries. Many many cars have long model runs in other countries before we even see them in the US.
That said, I'd tend to believe that it's just an oversight. The producers have said in podcasts, that their intent is not to trick us and the most logical scenario presented is the one we should go with.

#360. Posted by: petew at March 16, 2008 8:29 AM

Ji Yeon Haiku 4.7 v.1


Ji Yeon Joins LOST Team,

Young Jin Falls For Panda Scam,

Hurley Grieves With Sun.

#361. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 9:15 AM

@petew

I tend to agree with your #360 post.

I'm not up to speed on the overseas release dates of vehicles. But, I've always been told by friends working in Japan that cell phones are available around a year or two earlier than here. That would make the cell phone Jin was using even older that it first appears.

The cell phone was a prop meant to be seen by the viewers.

#362. Posted by: DW at March 16, 2008 10:07 AM

I got so scared that this was gone. It kept giving me an error message whenever I tried to go there. I think if it lasted more than a day, I would have been incredibly sad.

anyway... I still think:
Vincent = SMOKE MONSTER.

#363. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 16, 2008 10:22 AM

lol, it's all coming back to me now...this was down last night. But, I remember posting a few things first and they are gone now. Is it possible I was edited out? That the grammar police felt my whole post was one big mistake? Say it isn't so, Mac??!!

I really added some deep thoughts here last night before the site was down, and now I have forgotten all of them...

#364. Posted by: meg at March 16, 2008 10:37 AM

Apologies to anyone who tried posting last night ... I think there was a period of a few hours where anything that was published didn't post to the site. I can assure you I didn't go in and delete stuff (or maybe that's what I WANT you to believe ...)

#365. Posted by: mac at March 16, 2008 10:43 AM

Mac gives DW a "do-over". Good man!

#366. Posted by: DW at March 16, 2008 10:56 AM

I think I am just as confused as I was to begin with. This show is such a love/hate show for me!! But no one (that I saw) touched on the fact that when Sun was getting ready for Hurley to arrive - which, btw is a long trip to come and see a baby - she was putting her ring on. It WAS NOT just a simple wedding band, it was an engagement ring. The baby is just a couple of months old at this point (I think) ... what's the ring? Why is she wearing it? For some reason, that really stuck out to me, and I think it has a key point in this episode and future ones. Anything??

#367. Posted by: Misty at March 16, 2008 10:59 AM

I think I am just as confused as I was to begin with. This show is such a love/hate show for me!! But no one (that I saw) touched on the fact that when Sun was getting ready for Hurley to arrive - which, btw is a long trip to come and see a baby - she was putting her ring on. It WAS NOT just a simple wedding band, it was an engagement ring. The baby is just a couple of months old at this point (I think) ... what's the ring? Why is she wearing it? For some reason, that really stuck out to me, and I think it has a key point in this episode and future ones. Anything??

#368. Posted by: Misty at March 16, 2008 10:59 AM

I think I am just as confused as I was to begin with. This show is such a love/hate show for me!! But no one (that I saw) touched on the fact that when Sun was getting ready for Hurley to arrive - which, btw is a long trip to come and see a baby - she was putting her ring on. It WAS NOT just a simple wedding band, it was an engagement ring. The baby is just a couple of months old at this point (I think) ... what's the ring? Why is she wearing it? For some reason, that really stuck out to me, and I think it has a key point in this episode and future ones. Anything??

#369. Posted by: Misty at March 16, 2008 11:00 AM

I think I am just as confused as I was to begin with. This show is such a love/hate show for me!! But no one (that I saw) touched on the fact that when Sun was getting ready for Hurley to arrive - which, btw is a long trip to come and see a baby - she was putting her ring on. It WAS NOT just a simple wedding band, it was an engagement ring. The baby is just a couple of months old at this point (I think) ... what's the ring? Why is she wearing it? For some reason, that really stuck out to me, and I think it has a key point in this episode and future ones. Anything??

#370. Posted by: Misty at March 16, 2008 11:01 AM

I think I am just as confused as I was to begin with. This show is such a love/hate show for me!! But no one (that I saw) touched on the fact that when Sun was getting ready for Hurley to arrive - which, btw is a long trip to come and see a baby - she was putting her ring on. It WAS NOT just a simple wedding band, it was an engagement ring. The baby is just a couple of months old at this point (I think) ... what's the ring? Why is she wearing it? For some reason, that really stuck out to me, and I think it has a key point in this episode and future ones. Anything??

#371. Posted by: Misty at March 16, 2008 11:01 AM

To all the NOVA and DC people out there, check out todays article in the Washington Post.

"More Than You Want to Know?"
Even if Spoiler Sites Turn Out to Be Right, They're Just Plain Wrong. Ask Any 'Lost' Fan

Great Review Mac.

ANTFBFF(anyone notice the flashback flash forward)

#372. Posted by: Dakota at March 16, 2008 11:01 AM

@371Misty

Sun took her ring off when she was in Labor. They made a big deal about it. She put it back on when Hurley was coming. Perhaps the swelling had gone down enough to wear it.

#373. Posted by: petew at March 16, 2008 11:12 AM

@371Misty

Sun took her ring off when she was in Labor. They made a big deal about it. She put it back on when Hurley was coming. Perhaps the swelling had gone down enough to wear it.

#374. Posted by: petew at March 16, 2008 11:12 AM

GRAAM!

What if Regina didn't commit suicide?

What if she was going to an underwater station?

She's using chains as a makeshift diving belt. Nobody on the crew is upset because she's just going down to the station.

I can't remember:
How may stations are there supposed to be?

How many have we seen? At least 2 underwater, right?

#375. Posted by: gladly_LOST at March 16, 2008 12:02 PM

@petew/360 et al

From wiki (and confirmed elsewhere):

"The Toyota Corolla Matrix, commonly referred to as the Toyota Matrix, is a compact hatchback manufactured by Toyota Motor Corporation in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada and sold in North America.

The Matrix is the Toyota version of a joint venture between Toyota and General Motors; the GM version is the Pontiac Vibe, made at NUMMI in Fremont, California. A third version, also assembled at NUMMI, was sold in Japan from 2002 to early 2004 as the Toyota Voltz. Although the Voltz was sold under the Toyota brand there, the styling was nearly identical to the Vibe. The Matrix is considered to be the sporty hatchback/wagon counterpart of the Corolla."

There was no earlier foreign run of this model.

Seriously ... how many "set mistakes" will it take to convince you that this is no mistake? I know there are other cars I can ID as post-2000 (guess I'll take the time to do it now), and shikotee/353 pointed out that people on other sites have apparently IDed toys in the store as post-2000. How many other post-2000 products are there that have "accidentally" worked their way onto the set?

Oh, BTW ... if they're so sloppy with set-piecing, then why no POST-2005 cars?
If they can put a 2003 model in a "2000" scene, then they should be just as likely to have a 2007 model in a "2005" scene. Why isn't that the case? Hmm?

I find it somewhat amusing, since I've seen many times in these blogs that "everything on this show is done for a reason" and "the producers place every item we see intentionally" or words to that extent (most recently with regard to the bracelets ... and hey, let's not forget about the scarf!).

Mighty convenient to claim sloppy prop placement one moment, and brilliantly anal set-piecing the next, as it suits you.

The items you hold as proof of his FB, aren't ... the store clerk did NOT say it WAS the year of the dragon (check it again ... as cookie/295 already pointed out, he says 'in the year of the dragon it brings good luck' ... now who's reading too much into details?). Also, WHO has Jin been married to for two months (when he announces such)? You do not KNOW he's talking about Sun.

From the producers' perspective, I'm they don't see this as "tricking" the audience (which they said they wouldn't) ... they simply laid down a lot of clues very apt to be misinterpreted, but also left enough to see the "truth."

I'm sorry, but I'm going to hold my ground on this until proven otherwise by the show ... I think it sets up too awesome a future betrayal/conflict scenario with Sayid/Jin at each other's throats.

In the immortal words of Mark Knopfler, "Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong!"

#376. Posted by: ealgumby at March 16, 2008 12:48 PM

So - I continue my analysis of S4 e2-3.

In Confirmed Dead, there are no ff's. We have fb's of the chopper crew.

Some key plot points....

- Ben's eyes bulge when Hurley mentions that the cabin is in a different direction. This strongly suggests that he is aware that Hurley can also see Jacob's cabin.

- When Miles ghost-busts the house, there is a major continuity shift. If possible, you should re-watch this! Right when he enters, he quickly looks at a group of pictures on a wall by the stairs. After he goes upstairs, finds the money and goes back down, he tells the grandmother "He's at peace now", and Miles once again looks at those same pictures. The pictures are all the same, except they have different frames surrounding them. Miles notices the difference, then reaches into his pants and gives some money back to the grandmother, telling her it wasn't as tricky as he thought.

This is clearly not a prop error - as mentioned, Miles specifically looks at these objects. It is foreshadowing something bigger that will be explained later (either about the power of the dead, or the alteration of reality - or something like that - who knows!).

- When Lapidus is watching the TV regarding the remains of 815 (and seeing the pilot), it is mentioned that it will be impossible to recover the bodies due to the depth. How convenient.

- Interestingly, when Naomi's body is being brought to the chopper, Miles tells them not to bother, stating that it is "just meat". As he is the ghost talker, I guess this would mean Naomi is finished.

With the next episode, the Economist, we have Sayid ff's. It is not so clear when this takes place in relation to the other ff's. When he is at the golf course talking to the guy he is going to kill, in response the O6 identification, the guy nervously responds "That's amazing.....I remember reading all about it". At the least, this comment suggests that this is happening sometime way after the O6 returned.

When he meets Elsa, it is winter in Berlin (likely winter 05/06 but could even be 06/07 or later?). We find out Elsa has a dream job - her employer is an Economist, who "works in emerging markets". Elsa states that she does not really understand what he does, but this does not matter, as all she does is shop for him. She shows the pager, and indicates that if it goes off, she is by his side instantly. It is a dream job because he is only in Berlin once or twice a year. She then asks if she knows Sayid from somewhere (likely Oceanic 6 fame), and he replies that he will tell her if she joins him for dinner.

Next ff, when Sayid and Elsa are going out to the Opera, Sayid mentions that there is newer technology in reference to the pager, and Elsa responds that her boss is "old fashioned."

On island, when Sayid is tricked and captured in Otherville, he is brought to the game room where Ben is being held. Ben mentions that he lost a dollar betting that Sayid would not be stupid enough to fall for his friend acting as bait. Sayid responds "What do you know about friendship?" and Ben replies "I know it's no use having friends you can't trust." Later, when Locke comes in, they discuss Ben's man on the boat, whom Ben will not reveal. Sayid says "The day I start trusting him is the day that I would have sold my soul".

Of course, this dialogue is ironic considering we know Sayid will be killing for Ben in the future, and that Elsa will turn out to be a baddie. The irony is even deeper considering we know that Ben lies considerably, that he manipulates people considerably, and that he can not be trusted. He knows how to get to Sayid.

The next ff, Sayid and Elsa are lying in bed, talking to each other about occupations and love. Just as Sayid is seemingly about to reveal more about himself, Elsa's pager goes off. Elsa starts getting dressed, and Sayid warns Elsa that she needs to leave Berlin, as people will be asking about what happened to her employer. Sayid mentions that Elsa's employer is on a list, and that "he is not an economist". Elsa turns around with a gun and shoots Sayid. With no other word spoken to him, she picks up a cel phone a d dials out "You were supposed to page me at ten-thirty", "No, I didn't kill him", "He's not going to give up the name now", "Why should I keep him alive?", "No. He had no idea", "All right, all right", "I'll bring him to you", "Leave the hotel", "I'll meet you at the safe house". The conversation ends, Sayid snatches his gun and shoots Elsa.

In the final ff, Sayid enters the Vet office to treat his wound.
Ben "Is she dead"
Sayid "Yes".
Ben "Why didn't she kill you?"
Sayid "She was trying to get information from me"
Ben "What sort of information?"
Sayid "She wanted to know who I work for... she wanted to know about you"
Ben "Of course she did.... Why are you crying - because of her? or because you were stupid enough to care for her? These people don't deserve our sympathies. Need I remind you what they did the last time you thought with your heart instead of your gun."
Sayid "You used that to recruit me into killing for you. "
Ben "Do you want to protect your friends or not Sayid? I have another name for you"
Sayid "But they know I am after them now"
Ben "Good"

Poor Sayid - as smart as he is, as a character, his emotions always betray him, and thus, he is easily manipulated by Ben. I included the non ff scene because I think it is very important - it establishes that Ben figures out the best way to get to Sayid. The final dialogue is crucial. It indicates that Sayid is not in league with Ben when he leaves the island. No doubt, we will have another Sayid centric episode that will show what exactly happened to push Sayid to "sell his soul".

My prediction - When Sayid returns, he pursues his original goal - finding Nadia. He will find her, but she will be killed, and this will crush him, because at some level, it will be due to his error of trusting someone. Nadia's killer(s) will either be Ben's enemies, or worse yet, it will have been planned by Ben himself. As mentioned - Ben is aware of Sayid's weakness, and he is just that kind of guy who would exploit it to further his own goals (killing his enemies). He is one cunning S.O.B.

2nd prediction - Who is the Economist? There is good enough reasons to suspect that it could be Ben. Elsa mentions that she only sees him 1-2 times a year, which would work with Ben. We've seen his money and passports, and I would suspect that he leaves the island for small periods of time. The old tech reference parallels Jacob's dislike of new tech, and we know that Ben and Jacob are closely related - possibly even the same person? Once again, Ben is that kinda guy who would manipulate both Elsa and Sayid for his endgame. He knows women are his weakness, and that this would help further break Sayid down to act as his puppet.
My 2nd bet would be Mr. Paik, just because I suspect he will somehow play a bigger role at some point.

Most importantly, as we now know that Ben is around, we now know that there is a way to return to the island. I suspect that we will gradually see all O6 members have a change of heart, and desire a return to the island. Since Sayid is connected to Ben, he will be the one who can make this happen. We know Jack and Hurley are toying with the idea, and if Jin is in fact alive and still on the island, Sun will want in too! So far, Kate is still very anti returning to the island, and we still need to find out who the last member of the O6 will be.

#377. Posted by: shikotee at March 16, 2008 12:52 PM

@ealgumby

Liked the "Solid Rock reference. I'm already singing in my head the next song in that Album "Les Boys'

Anyway

Just a few comments. The shopkeeper said that a dragon was an excellent present to give "..in the year of the dragon." That's how I heard it. So, it seems like the chance is that this was in the Year of the Dragon.

The cell phone was clearly an older model. Again, the producers have used Cell Phone models as evidence for us. I guess that the way I look at it is that the clues that point us to this being year 2000, are a little less obscure than the clues that point elsewhere.

The only thing in the whole Sun/Jin thing that leaves any speculation open for me was that when Sun was in labor, there was that quick scene where she looked out and thought she saw Jin. It wasn't Jin. Then after Jin gave away the Panda, he quickly glanced into the Ambassador's daughter's room and saw the mother. Sort of a mirror scene and it did make me pause to wonder why that was shown.

Anwyay....only time will tell!

#378. Posted by: petew at March 16, 2008 12:59 PM

I think I am just as confused as I was to begin with. This show is such a love/hate show for me!! But no one (that I saw) touched on the fact that when Sun was getting ready for Hurley to arrive - which, btw is a long trip to come and see a baby - she was putting her ring on. It WAS NOT just a simple wedding band, it was an engagement ring. The baby is just a couple of months old at this point (I think) ... what's the ring? Why is she wearing it? For some reason, that really stuck out to me, and I think it has a key point in this episode and future ones. Anything??

#379. Posted by: Misty at March 16, 2008 1:17 PM

I think I am just as confused as I was to begin with. This show is such a love/hate show for me!! But no one (that I saw) touched on the fact that when Sun was getting ready for Hurley to arrive - which, btw is a long trip to come and see a baby - she was putting her ring on. It WAS NOT just a simple wedding band, it was an engagement ring. The baby is just a couple of months old at this point (I think) ... what's the ring? Why is she wearing it? For some reason, that really stuck out to me, and I think it has a key point in this episode and future ones. Anything??

#380. Posted by: Misty at March 16, 2008 1:17 PM

@shikotee

Very insightful commentary.

My thought is that when Ben said: "These people don't deserve our sympathies. Need I remind you what they did the last time you thought with your heart instead of your gun." It reminded me of the way that he talked about Widmore's freighter crew.

It makes sense to me that Widmore is Ben's enemy. But, if this is true, why wouldn't Widmore know/assume that Sayid was working for Ben?

#381. Posted by: DW at March 16, 2008 1:19 PM

@petew/378

Should've done this first! Jin's cell phone that he drops in the street (which everyone here seems to believe is significant, right?), is ...

a Motorola i605 ... introduced spring of 2005 (consistent with when Sun would've been giving birth)! It is NOT a 2000 cell phone! The i605 was noted for being a brick when introduced, but had a lot of new features that compensated for its size.

I think we forget how quickly technology advances, and everyone (myself included) immediately assumed his cell phone was old (circa 2000) ... not so!

Jin was not having a FB!

#382. Posted by: ealgumby at March 16, 2008 1:53 PM

376. Posted by: ealgumby

Ealgumby
Check out lostpedia.com they have a Bloopers and continuity errors section for every episode. There are srewups in them all.
example: In Jin's flashback, he pulls South Korean won bills that recently came into circulation out of his wallet. The â‚©10 000 he pulls out were released on January 22, 2007

#383. Posted by: btly at March 16, 2008 1:54 PM

@btly/383

I have posted two new pics of Jin's cell and the Motorola i605 at:

tinyurl*com/3xqrn8

These are the same phone (and no, there really aren't any other models it could be confused with).

Okay, now after so many here have harped on how important the placement of the cell phone was, and how it proved it was a FB, NOW are you all going to say it was simply yet another (how many?) prop error, and disregard its significance?

Puh-leeze.

#384. Posted by: ealgumby at March 16, 2008 2:16 PM

Something I noticed about the Jin/Sun flashes is the converstaion that occured right before moving into the flashes. Jin asks Sun, on the island, if the baby is his. She hesitates before answering that it is. Now remember, time is messed up on the island. I can't remember the whole conversation that happened between her and Juliet, but it might not necessarily mean the baby is Jin's.

Then we go to the Jin/Sun flashes. At the very end, once Jin delivers the panda scarf, he walks out of the hospital and tells someone on the way out that the baby wasn't his. Significant??

Now, to contradict myself..Hurley does make a comment that the baby looks like Jin. But, people always say this stuff about babies. Most just look like shriveled up prunes and they just say it to be nice.

#385. Posted by: meg at March 16, 2008 2:32 PM

And another comment...why is Jin in such a hurry to get to the hospital? Who keeps calling him on the cell while he is going there.

Yes, I am convinced that it's no FB. Why intertwine the fb with the ff??! There's something screwy with the times going on.

When I post now, it goes to an error. My post is there, but I can't just refresh the screen. I have to get back on the site again.

#386. Posted by: meg at March 16, 2008 2:36 PM

@ Misty
You posted your comment like a million times.

ealgumby is a genius. GENIUS!

I seriously was worried that Mac deleted his blog yesterday. I still can't get on from my computer.

#387. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 16, 2008 2:47 PM

HOWEVER. I still don't understand why IF Jin was in the future (same time as Sun) why he would say his real name to the guy. You would think he would go by an alternate identity.

#388. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 16, 2008 2:49 PM

@ meg - 386
"When I post now, it goes to an error. My post is there, but I can't just refresh the screen. I have to get back on the site again."

Same thing happens to me. I think there's something wrong with the site.

FIX IT MACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC!

#389. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 16, 2008 2:52 PM

Sun: Where’s Jin? I can't reach him on his mobile phone.
Doc: He uses Dharma Mobile – they get a lot of drops.

I'm gonna buy in to the idea that the simplest answer is the most likely one, so...

@gladly_LOST - What if Regina didn't commit suicide?
I agree it's possible, and may have even posted this idea earlier. Some we have seen dead (Goodwin, Paulikki, Charlie, Naomi, etc) and others we’re just presuming dead without actually seeing them (Mikhail, Regina), but if you go back to rule number 1, then she's dead. We just didn’t see it.

@shikotee
I think there is a way off the island via Ben's secret passageway. I wouldnt be surprised if it's the not-blown-up sub. But again back to rule no. 1, I'm gonna assume Locke did blow up the sub and there's some other way off the island we haven't seen yet. Too bad Sayid didn't tell Locke about the Ben Cave when Locke was getting Ben's "last bargaining chip" of information.

@ealgumby and others re: FF/FB
I'm gonna do a little double reverse here. Most of the clues point to it being 2000, so I will attribute all the 2004 stuff as a misdirection play by the writers, an annoying one at that. That being said, if Mac and others are right that it really is 2004, it's entirely plausible: Korea's a big place; if Mr. Paik feels Jin isn't good enough for his daughter (much as Widmore feels about Desmond), he could easily find a way to keep him away from Sun and make her believe he's dead ("Jin, if Sun ever sees you, I will take your child away from both of you forever..."). It wouldn't make much sense for her to fake her reaction at the gravesite. But back on the other hand, would the shot/sedatives she received in the delivery room really make her think he was alive if she thought he was dead? I don't know any drug that will make you suddently think someone is alive. So the only conclusion I can draw from that is that she thought he was alive when she was having her baby, then thought he was dead 2 months later at the cemetery. But that wouldn't make sense either, because the gravestone date indicates Jin dies on the crash and was not one of the six. If he was one of the six, he would have a more recent date on the gravestone. So I go back to my first point: The simplest answer is most likely. Jin's was a flashback, he's not one of the six and I'll attribute Sun's calling out for him as poetic license by the writers.

I'm dizzy now.

#390. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 16, 2008 3:04 PM

@ Misty # lots of posts: I don't know if you have any children or not, but after Miss Longthought was born I stopped wearing my engagement & wedding rings for most of the time (I was worried that they—& my engagement ring especially, as it's not a smooth band—would scratch Miss Longthought). The only times I put them on, even now that she's ten, are when I'm going out of the house. Most of my friends who are moms do the same thing.

@ shikotee #377: Echoing the thanks for the great analysis you've been providing w/your re-watching. Although Sayid is working for Ben & consequently has sold out (& I'm guessing he—Sayid—feels like he sold his soul), I don't think he trusts Ben; I think Ben is blackmailing him.

@ ealgumby @bunch of posts: You make a strong case for Jin's FB being another FF. The major sticking point for me is the shopkeeper's mention of the Year of the Dragon. Why would he say that if it wasn't the Year of the Dragon? At that point he's trying to get Jin to buy the stuffed dragon, but if it's not really the Year of the Dragon, that statement wouldn't be a persuasive sales tactic. If, however, we go w/the theory that Jin's solo section of the episode is a FF, then it could be possible that it's set in the next Year of the Dragon (2012–2013). There's no reason why both Jin's & Sun's FFs would have to be happening concurrently. That being the case, Sun's FF would be set in 2005 & Jin's seven or so years later. Running further w/the idea of Jin being in a FF...what would convince/coerce him to work for Mr. Paik again, especially if he's no longer w/Sun? If Jin is still working for Paik & in South Korea, wouldn't it be difficult for him to avoid seeing Sun at some point? Would this then indicate that Sun has broken w/her father & thus explain why her parents were not seen at Ji Yeon's delivery?

#391. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 16, 2008 3:28 PM

I didn't see much attention given to this, but I think the fact that both Sun and Ji Yeon survived is HUGE. At least it is for me, because it keeps alive my idea that even though Ben was born off the Island, he may have been conceived on the island.

Maybe we'll learn that Emily had pulled a "Sun-Hwa Kwon" a short time before her pregnancy. Perhaps Roger "Workman" Linus' coolness towards Ben was about even more than blame for the death of his wife.

Or we could find out that the Linus's went to a fertility doctor who impregnated Emily with an embryo conceived on the island.

Regardless, I still secretly suspect that Horace Goodspeed is Ben's real father.

Hopefully, there's still a lot more of the Ben Linus story to be told.

#392. Posted by: vacc at March 16, 2008 3:31 PM

On the topic of implanting embryos, did anyone else wonder if we were going to get a shock when we saw the baby?
It occurred to me that the others could have implanted an embryo in Sun to further their own research.

Who knows? Perhaps all the pregnant women on the Island were unknowingly carrying Ben's clone.

#393. Posted by: vacc at March 16, 2008 3:34 PM

@Scooby-Dude #390: Not sure if you have any children or have been around childbirth, but during labor one's mind can bounce all around, depending on what drugs one's gotten (or not gotten). The filters on speech often are a casualty as well. My dad said he never realized he was illegitimate until he was w/my mom during her labor w/me. ; >

Anyway, getting back to Sun's dialogue in her FF, my opinion is that she wanted very badly for Jin to be w/her, & hallucinated him being there. And at the tombstone, she's missing him very badly because 1) he either died on the island before/during rescue or 2) he's stuck on the island. The death-date on the tombstone is irrelevant because she & Hurley & the other O6 know, but are under some compelling reason not to say, that Jin didn't die during the crash, but that the world at large thinks so because of the 815 cover-up.

#394. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 16, 2008 3:37 PM

Does anyone remember back in Season 1 when Jack saved Boone after Boone tried to save the woman that was drowning. Charlie came running down the beach yelling "I can't swim." Then Charlie saves the day by not only swimming but diving down to the hatch. That has always bugged me! It's not only the prop people that make mistakes.

Also, when Sun was in the hospital the doctor said that she couldn't have natural childbirth because of the medication. What medication?

Question for Mac - I could load this page last night on my son's computer but not on mine. Any insight as to why my son's computer is 'special?'

#395. Posted by: pebsgonepostal@verizon.net at March 16, 2008 3:38 PM

@ MR_NAYSAYER #344

Yes, I too, was wondering about the numbers and how they haven't been mentioned as a whole in quite some time. They've always been one of my favorite things about the show... and I also hope that we find out about the hieroglyphics at some time as well. This little mysteries need to be answered and not forgotten!

Also @344: Great joke about Smokie being seen on the back of the milk carton... had I not been reviewing all of the past entries closely, I may have missed that one! HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, post #375 GladyLost - interesting point... I am sure we'll see more about that whole scenario - why create a character only to wipe her out without any progression of the story? (Oh yeah, wait, I forgot about Nikki and Paulo!)


#396. Posted by: Lostfan9 at March 16, 2008 3:38 PM

Hey mac--Just FYI; all the "special characters" (em-dashes, umlauts, etc.) are off-kilter. Not sure if that's because I'm using a Mac rather than a PC & the new server isn't playing well w/it... : )

#397. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 16, 2008 7:17 PM

Got a question for you guys -- when you post a comment, are you seeing a blank screen or is the post looping back around as it normally does?

#398. Posted by: mac at March 16, 2008 7:43 PM

Test post.

#399. Posted by: DW at March 16, 2008 7:45 PM

Mac, It didn't loop around. I had to reload the page. Refresh didn't work.

This is the error I received:


The website cannot display the page
HTTP 500
Most likely causes:
The website is under maintenance.
The website has a programming error.

What you can try:
Refresh the page.

Go back to the previous page.

More information

This error (HTTP 500 Internal Server Error) means that the website you are visiting had a server problem which prevented the webpage from displaying.

For more information about HTTP errors, see Help.

#400. Posted by: DW at March 16, 2008 7:46 PM

My last three posts flipped back around and ate themselves.

re: all the "special characters" (em-dashes, umlauts, etc.) are off-kilter.

They're off kilter here in PC world too.

I don't allow websites to push a "font" to my PC. The new server may be doing that, or have a default style in the .css style-sheet that no one can use. I stripped all of the java and css and extras that filmfod.. and www.filmfod pushed.

If this gets thru - then that worked. I'll preview too before the post.

#401. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 7:58 PM

My last three posts flipped back around and ate themselves.

re: all the "special characters" (em-dashes, umlauts, etc.) are off-kilter.

They're off kilter here in PC world too.

I don't allow websites to push a "font" to my PC. The new server may be doing that, or have a default style in the .css style-sheet that no one can use. I stripped all of the java and css and extras that filmfod.. and www.filmfod pushed.

If this gets thru - then that worked.

#402. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 8:00 PM

Most likely causes:
The website is under maintenance.
The website has a programming error.

#403. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 8:01 PM

Most likely causes:
The website is under maintenance.
The website has a programming error.

#404. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 8:02 PM

Most likely causes:
The website is under maintenance.
The website has a programming error.

#405. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 8:03 PM

Most likely causes:
The website is under maintenance.
The website has a programming error.

#406. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 8:05 PM

This is freaky...but yes, the same thing happening to DocH is happening here.

Let's take a vote...and then go back to the old server...:)Hopefully it will be all fixed up for work tomorrow, or what will everyone DO at work... (work??) nahhh.

At least I did get a "do over". It's as if last night's drunken posts never happened. (and I didn't have to chew off my arm to get away...haha....just kidding, of course..:))

#407. Posted by: meg at March 16, 2008 8:13 PM

This whole problem started when the sky turned purple outside my office window.

#408. Posted by: davidrh at March 16, 2008 8:16 PM

reading posts now @ 8:16

pls delete multiples. (all)

#409. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 8:17 PM

lol, I was thinking the same thing! Actually, it's quicker now. Something is definitely wrong though...I'm hearing whooshes!

#410. Posted by: meg at March 16, 2008 8:18 PM

8:18

post results in

http://www.filmfodder.com/cgi-bin/movabletype/mt-comments.cgi

(negative posting)

#411. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 8:18 PM

This page has 400+ comments since Thursday already... what'dya expect?!?

HEY MAC!!!!! - build a supersonic security fence around your entire blog... set it on HIGH so that Patchy can't sneak past it and only let those on your SPECIAL LIST through, simply by punching in the special combination of 4... 8... 15... 16... 23... 42 - ah hell, everybody just relax - we'll be saved soon. HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BOY WALT?!? I JUST WANT MY SON BACK!!

#412. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 16, 2008 8:36 PM

Hey mac--I get the blank screen after posting (better than the Microsoft Blue Screen of Death, though!). No biggie. Thanks for all of your work!

#413. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 16, 2008 8:42 PM

This page has 400+ comments since Thursday already... what'dya expect?!?

HEY MAC!!!!! - build a supersonic security fence around your entire blog... set it on HIGH so that Patchy can't sneak past it and only let those on your SPECIAL LIST through, simply by punching in the special combination of 4... 8... 15... 16... 23... 42 - ah hell, everybody just relax - we'll be saved soon. HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BOY WALT?!? I JUST WANT MY SON BACK!!

#414. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 16, 2008 8:43 PM

Another test.

#415. Posted by: mac at March 16, 2008 8:49 PM

8:50

Mac, I completely deleted all internet files, including temp folders, all histories, passwords, forms, etc... ran a Spyware search. Added this page to my trusted sites. Fully, loaded the lead-in page above this page and then this one. Here goes.

(How long has f-fod been using .shtml? Windows - Vista & Office pushed a big update this week that may be interfering.)

#416. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 8:50 PM

Didn't work. I had to backpage and then page refresh to see the page.

Getting an "allow Active X?" prompt too.

#417. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 8:55 PM

mac, I ran thru the complete RSS access and subscription process. Seems good. Got the latest microfeed & current xml posting in no time flat.

#418. Posted by: DocH at March 16, 2008 9:09 PM

I think Jin is in stuck on the island. And thus part of some parallel time zone that is tracking back to before the Oceanic flight. FLASHFORWARD: Last scene of the series: JIN will be there to see the birth of his daughter. The freaky time zones will somehow collide due to Jack/Kate/HUrley/Sayid's return to the island and eventual grand rescue of all remaining. Meanwhile, the audience's brains will collectively explode as back flashes, meet the future flashes...in another time/space dimension beyond my current full comprehension.

#419. Posted by: justlost at March 16, 2008 9:17 PM

@Mr_Naysayer #344: “...speakin' of the simmering low on the back burner, where has Smokie been?”

On The Lost Blog.

I was getting a HTTP 404 error most of the morning and couldn’t even open the site. It was like getting “flashed” by the monster.

Seriously, good luck, Mac. You know how much this place means to us, so we’re all sending good wishes for a speedy Blog recovery.

#420. Posted by: Clementine at March 16, 2008 9:25 PM

Rats, still happening.

(No offense, Eloise!)

#421. Posted by: Clementine at March 16, 2008 9:27 PM

****Spoiler ?****

For the 1st time I read the Official ABC Episode review and they said FF /FB
is that supposed to be for sure as it's on the ABC Site?

Still think if it was a real FF then their is just a very few on this site that would understand how that could happen and I are not one of them.

Mac Rules!!
Please catch us up on your thinking !!!
if is was a FF what is going on?

#422. Posted by: SamFin at March 16, 2008 10:08 PM

OK my last post worked very fast. Then reloaded itself. All in about 4 seconds.
with this many posts this is a great addition !

#423. Posted by: SamFin at March 16, 2008 10:10 PM

Allrighty! Looks like the Blank Screen of Comment Death has been defeated. Please drop me a line directly at *mac at filmfodder dot com* if you run into it again. (Thank you VERY much for your patience!)

And thanks to Chris for the help!

#424. Posted by: mac at March 16, 2008 10:16 PM

@SamFin #423: Here's what I got from the episode recap on ABC.com

"Jin says it wasn't his baby he's only been married two months. Suddenly we realize Jin wasn't rushing to see Sun. His story was different from Sun's. It wasn't a flash-forward it was a flashback."

Is that what you were talking about? Because that confirms Jin had a flashback.

Was there something else you read indicating different? Just checking.

#425. Posted by: Clementine at March 16, 2008 10:20 PM

Mad props to Mac and Chris for defeating the Blog monster!

:)))

#426. Posted by: Clementine at March 16, 2008 10:22 PM

@ 103.....

Aaron was not on the manifest - he was a fetus and thus did not have his own seat....

In any case, who knows who Oceanic Six is...we'll find out soon enough.

#427. Posted by: ts at March 16, 2008 10:38 PM

@426 Clementine
Nice to meet you. That's what I understood FB from the 1st.

But with all these new/old cars. Year of the dragon what not's. Magic cell phone etc. and Mac and a bunch of people thinking FF. It just messes up my brain trying to figure out both Sun and Jin being FF at the same time.

#428. Posted by: SamFin at March 16, 2008 10:40 PM

@SamFin #428: Oh, okay then, we're on the same page :)

I always thought flashback, but I can't decide who is #6 of the Six. Hope the producers confirm in their podcast this week!

#429. Posted by: Clementine at March 16, 2008 10:52 PM

To all those who can not understand why someone would think that Aaron is not one of the Oceanic 6 - but especially Not an Other @42 & 309, Noelle @102, Yarney@ 197, Scorpio95628 @291 and of course JoePike

The Oceanic 6

Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, and ?????

Yes the Oceanic 6 would be a name given to the survivors by the media and yes they could put anyone in that group they wanted whether they were on the flight or not but I still contend that Aaron is not one of the six. A review of some important information is in order. At Kate’s trial, Jack the misrememberer testifies that “…only eight of us survived, we landed in the water.” And then “…she tried to save the other two but they didn’t…” at which point Kate interrupts. Later in the parking garage Kate says to Jack “…I’ve heard you tell that story so many times I’m starting to think you believe it”. Those six who lived according to this often repeated lie surely have to be the ones dubbed by the media as the Oceanic 6. In order for Aaron to be one of those six Jack would have to be counting a pregnant Claire as two survivors which seems unlikely to me.

And let us not forget that Kate is apparently passing off Aaron as her own child in which case no argument could be made for him being one of the eight survivors of the crash or one of the six who lived to be rescued. I know the timing for Kate claiming Aaron as her own is a bit sketchy but we still do not know when the official “rescue” of the Oceanic 6 occurs.

ealgumby @ 348 and also posts 109, 182, & 307

According to the enhanced episode of The Constant, the lack of a whoosh indicates that the scene is a consciousness time travel. So far we have only seen these for Desmond. FBs & FFs both have the whoosh.

#430. Posted by: Debunker at March 16, 2008 11:06 PM

@Debunker/430

"According to the enhanced episode of The Constant, the lack of a whoosh indicates that the scene is a consciousness time travel. So far we have only seen these for Desmond. FBs & FFs both have the whoosh."

Thank you for the clarification! That had been bothering me, but didn't have a recording of the enhanced ep to check the info. Now it makes sense.

#431. Posted by: ealgumby at March 16, 2008 11:48 PM

RE: Aaron as or as not one of the O6...

What if Kate's preggers when she leaves the island. She's said she has to leave, that would be a reasonable reason why. She has a baby and names him Aaron in memory/honor of Claire's baby. It's blonde because Sawyer's the baby-daddy. We have no idea how they are counting the 6 - I'd assume that any baby that came out of the ordeal, whether it was a fetus on the plane or just a sparkle in Sawyer's eye, would be named one of the survivors.

#432. Posted by: Helen at March 16, 2008 11:52 PM

@Helen #432: Based on the timeline revealed by this episode, I don't think there's any way that Kate can be pregnant from Sawyer. We know that Sun conceived in late October 2004; therefore, the latest she could give birth would be early August 2005. And as we saw Sun giving birth in South Korea, we know that the O6 got off the island prior to August 2005. Kate & Sawyer didn't have sex until after Day 68 on the island, which would mean it was very late November 2004. Even if Kate got pregnant then, she would not be able to give birth, even prematurely, until May or June 2005.

In any case, the producers have told Evangeline Lilly that her Aaron is Claire's Aaron, who was born on Day 41 on the island, or very early November 2004. There's no way that Claire's Aaron could be passed off as a Kate & Sawyer's Aaron—they'd be far too obviously different in size & development.

And even if Kate claimed to be pregnant while on the flight, she would have had to be obviously pregnant on the flight for an island birth to match up w/Claire's Aaron's age. So I don't see how Kate could pass Claire's Aaron off as her biological child at all.

#433. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 17, 2008 12:29 AM

@Clementine #338-340: Thanks for passing along the meaning of Ji Yeon. I think Jin was probably thinking of the second meaning rather than the first; otherwise I don't think Sun would have said "It's beautiful" if the meaning was "delay." ; )

I also agree w/the points you made, especially the comments about Bernard explaining why he & Rose stayed w/Jack & the chemistry between Jin & Sun in their scene & Sun's emotions at the tombstone.

On a tangent for a moment: It's interesting (& perhaps foreshadowing) that Bernard makes it clear that he & Rose see Locke as a bad person. Didn't Ben tell Locke when they were in the Swan together that he (Ben) thought he (Locke) was a good person? Was Ben just manipulating Locke as usual?

Re your nitpicks: On #1, perhaps Sayid is using the technique of "never let them know what you don't know"? On #2, perhaps the conversation about Sun's prognosis takes place off camera (otherwise too much emotion for one episode?).

Re whatever Daniel was working on when Sun stopped by: Perhaps instead of a satellite phone, it was a Hot Scots Replicator... ; )

#434. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 17, 2008 1:01 AM

Thanks, Obi-Mac & Jedi Knight Chris—things are working fine now!

#435. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 17, 2008 1:04 AM

@ Debunker-

Good point! Jack did say that 8 survived initially. That would have to leave Aaron out. I guess I am just confused as to how Aaron would have gotten off the island. I am sure that even a baby would be included in any naming (Oceanic 7) especially since Oceanic 6 doesn't have any ring to it. Perhaps the media doesn't know that Kate even has Aaron and that is why she wants to keep him out of the courtroom. Basically I am lost on the whole Aaron situation. But I now agree that unless the writers, through Jack, screwed up a few lines (doubtful), Aaron is not one of the six.


Namaste.....Scarf

#436. Posted by: Not an Other at March 17, 2008 1:48 AM

Diane told Kate during the trial that the doctors had been telling her she had 6 months to live for four years. I'm assuming then that when Kate went to see her in the hospital, she had recently been diagnosed. The marshall, when checking his guns on the plane, said he had been chasing Kate for 3 years. I think then, that the flash fowards must be within the first year off the island. Maybe Kate's trial was going on and she couldn't visit Sun. We know that Jack would have stayed nearby for Kate. Sayid was off killing people.

Also, I think they were rescued from another island well away from Ben's island. That's also part of the secret they are hiding. If they know what Sayid is doing, that could certainly cause emotional problems for them. I am wondering if the person in the coffin is someone Sayid killed and it was just the final straw for Jack. They could be suffering tremendous guilt over what Sayid is being forced to do.

#437. Posted by: pebspostal at March 17, 2008 2:54 AM

@224 DocH said, rightly,

>Enhanced episodes keep fringe viewers connected - and their fannies in-place.
[It also settles half a million slapfights on fansites]. You could solve your problem by JUST watching the enhanced version.

>[And what "loyal" fan "only" watches an episode JUST TWICE?] [;^)

Unfortunately, (sob) there's no enhanced show on the schedule this week. ABC's airing a new show "Miss Guides" in the 8PM Thursday time slot, so we won't get a definitive popup on who the Oceanic 6 are. Maybe (sigh) the next Cuze/Lindleof podcast.

#438. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 17, 2008 9:29 AM

Just puting a time line together:

Sun's was a flash forward is about 3 months in the future - determined by the birth of here island child.

Jack's bridge jumping flash forward was several years in the future - due to Arron's age.

Hurley's (2 weeks ago) basketball flashforward was a couple of months before Jack's bridge jump episode - due to the length of his beard.

Kates court flash forward was just after Hurley's looney bin flash - due to the existence of the beginning of Jack's beard.

The futures path seems to be connected to Jack's beard length. Don't shave Jack, we'll be completely LOST.

#439. Posted by: Glen at March 17, 2008 11:03 AM

hello everyone!! greetings from France! typing w/1 hand sux! Had shoulder surgery last week, but must chime in. =)

nothing can keep me from Lost and this blog!

Thanx so much Mac for keeping our wonderful community alive. ur the best!

Got sum things to say this week. so here i am.

@Vikki at March 15, 2008 3:32 PM I think Bernard's "it's the right thing to do" comment bears more significance than it may seem.

i totally agree. thanx 4 ur comments. i think we'll see more about that convo this season.


@Alaïs_Longthought at March 15, 2008 4:05 PM

1st let me say, we sure do think alike! et nous tous parlons français!)

"the Freighterous Four" LOL!! great nickname. can we keep it? s'il te plait?

"Would anyone really get into a taxi & drive away w/a giant panda in the backseat?"

i thot that was weird too.

however, i don't agree w/this: "If we count Charlie as one of the Elite Eight survivors (as he was heard by Penny well after the crash date)"

i think that convo was private and won't come out in the media :(

"I've been trying to find the meaning of Ji Yeon."

i know this was already answered later in the thread, but i read (on another forum, sorry Mac, ur still the greatest!) a different translation: "Heavenly Patience" which i thot was simply beautiful. Anyone else read that?

"Speaking of misleading, we don't know for sure that "Kevin" was the one that put the "Don't trust the captain" note through the door for Sayid & Des. I was also thinking that it was Walt pounding on the pipes."

i'm w/ya on this 1. Especially pertaining to Walt. i think he's doing the banging, and he's the one driving everyone crazy on the boat. i've been thinking 4 some time that walt is really ben's MOTB.

"One thing that struck me was at the very beginning of Sun's flashback, she was preparing to go somewhere. It looked as though she had a bag packed & she was applying lipstick. Where would she have been going so late in her pregnancy?"

where the heck was she going indeed? they made such a point to show her packing. i hope we find out.

@338. Posted by: Clementine at March 15, 2008 4:45 PM According to Doc Jenson, Ji Yeon means either ''delay'' or ''flower of wisdom.''

see above. btw, i always love ur insight and sense of humor. ur 1 of the main reasons i love this blog. keep 'em coming!

339. Posted by: Clementine at March 15, 2008 4:47 PM Nitpicking#2: Even after they reconcile on the island, Jin asks no questions of Sun as to why the baby is in danger, or what the prognosis is.

i agree. i thot the writers really fell down on that 1.

"My favorite character in this episode was the Kahana. That spooky freighter is right out of a Stephen King novel."

what a great observation! i never really thot of the boat that way. next re-watch, i'll keep that in mind. thanx!

@340. Posted by: Clementine at March 15, 2008 5:34 PM

"For anyone who has not revisited past episodes lately, I would recommend the 2nd season finale (Live Together, Die
Alone) as a good refresher at this point. It contains most of the back-story for Desmond and Michael relevant to the past few episodes."

thanx again! being unable to drive AT ALL for a month, i'll be watching a lot of downloads! oops, did i say "downloads"? i totally meant completely legal, uh, something ;)

@345. Posted by: shikotee at March 15, 2008 10:15 PM JoePike - I'm trying to be a little more nice now... It's really hard after reading stupid comments... I just find the urge to bash them.

being nice is ALWAYS a good thing. it's what makes our "community" so special =)

"What I would like to focus on is the issue at hand - how did the O6 leave, why are they lying, and what would make them want to go back to the island?" and "Jack interjects "No... I'm sick of lying.... We made a mistake."

yup, my thots exactly. i really don't care who the last "6" is, i think what u said was right on. anyone else have ideas?

"funeral My guess - It could be John Locke's mom."

i don't think so because the obit had a man's name. but hey, this is Lost.

"jack It is over time that he breaks down. What is it that will take him from A to B? It is so bad that his is very close to ending his life." and "So - Much like far future Jack, Hurley seems to shift from being fine with leaving the island."

i think both of them are being "haunted." Jack by his dad, and Hurley by Charlie.

@346. Posted by: ealgumby at March 15, 2008 10:20 PM (still hoping someone can translate what it says on the bag)

i read that a different name is written on the bag. i thot maybe 2 protect Sun's privacy and keep people from stealing her jewelry for a souvenir of 1 of the O6.

@359. Posted by: mac at March 16, 2008 7:55 AM This is a test post. Nothing to see here (we upgraded the servers last night and I'm checking to make sure everything is working properly ...)

Mac, i was so scared there for awhile. i kept getting 404s. SO glad we're back.

@376. Posted by: ealgumby at March 16, 2008 12:48 PM Mighty convenient to claim sloppy prop placement one moment, and
brilliantly anal set-piecing the next, as it suits you.

ouch! that 1 hurt and it wasn't even directed at me. i find it useful 2 always remember that the written word endures 4 a long time, especially on this blog where NOTHING is erased. let's play nice, shall we? everyone's comments and ideas are welcome here. Right Mac? And this is Lost, anything's possible ;)

@394. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 16, 2008 3:37 PM My dad said he never realized he was illegitimate until he was w/my mom during her labor w/me. ; >

Oh god that was funny! can i steal it?

@436. Posted by: Not an Other at March 17, 2008 1:48 AM

"Perhaps the media doesn't know that Kate even has Aaron and that is why she wants to keep him out of the courtroom."

great point! kudos to u.

And finally, sorry guys for the "text message" style of this post. my right arm is attached to my chest and hurts like hell. but the French have very strong pain meds and r generous w/ them. that may also explain the loopiness of my responses ;)

thanx for being my Lost family!

#440. Posted by: En Provence at March 17, 2008 11:05 AM

Lost March Madness:

Elite Eight:
Oceanic Six vs. The Hostile Ones
Freighterous Four vs. Jacob's Den
Tailie Two (Bernard and the Scarf) vs. The Other One (Ben)
Widmore Wildcats vs. Eko & the Bunnymen

Final Four:
Freighterous Four vs. Oceanic Six
Widmore Wildcats vs. The Other One

Final Two:
Oceanic Six vs. The Other One

And the winner is...

#441. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 17, 2008 11:44 AM

@En Provence: Ouch, I'm feeling your pain! Take care and get better soon! I hope Lost and this blog provide a good distraction in the meantime. The great spirit of this community is what brings me back, also.

Just a note - the post you quoted about bashing people's comments is misattributed to shikotee (not his style). But I agree with your reply :)

Remets-toi vite!
J'espère que tu iras mieux très vite.

#442. Posted by: Clementine at March 17, 2008 11:45 AM

@449 En Provence

Hope you have a speedy recovery.

Good Post on the press not knowing that Arron is around. As I remember small children are prized on a certain island. Especially if it was conceived on said island. I think they would steal him if they knew.

Also: Sun better watch her baby after 2 weeks. That's when they took Alex.

I am very curious if MAC is sticking with his theory on
FF/FB oops FF/FF thingy’s

#443. Posted by: SanFin at March 17, 2008 11:50 AM

um, i think i may have just posted a comment that's longer than Mac's recap.

Shoulda broken that one up into about 10 chunks. sorry guys! morphine talking, uh, typing.

thanx in advance 4 ur understanding.

btw, where's fenway ben?

#444. Posted by: En Provence at March 17, 2008 12:08 PM

-304 Crispy
Wow..I left for the weekend around post #200 and came back to 443! Lots of catching up to do.

Re my original panda reference: Honestly, I had an AHA moment when Jin picked up the panda. More of an outright squeal, actually. I knew then that the whole panda thing would gleefully get out of control.

My contributions here are lame compared to the intelligent, scientific and thoughtful posts by most of you, so I finally feel somewhat worthy! You all everybody are just the best.

Must keep reading now...

#445. Posted by: lovelost at March 17, 2008 12:20 PM

@Clementine: Ouch, is right! merci beaucoup pour tes gentils sentiments. je vais mieux en mieux.

"Just a note - the post you quoted about bashing people's comments is misattributed to shikotee (not his style)." ur prolly right. i copied/pasted stuff into notepad, i must have screwed up somewhere. i tried to be careful. oh well. i hope the right poster gets the gentle reminder ;) and that shikotee doesn't flame me too bad *wince*

@SanFin: thanks!

#446. Posted by: En Provence at March 17, 2008 12:22 PM

>Why didn't Claire die while still pregnant? We always thought it was because she got pregnant off the island, right? But now, Jules says that Sun will die if she stays, and supposedly she's an off-island conception pregnancy. Is Juliet lying that it is really Jin's baby? How can she be so sure she will die given Claire's survival? Despite Claire being monitored by Ethan that still wouldn't have made a difference given what we know about all the other on-island conceptions that were death sentences.

The testing that Juliet conducted in "D.O.C." established that Sun had conceived *on* the island, i.e. by Jin rather than her pre-island lover. (Of course that really doesn't rule out Michael.)

o--------------

@395 pebsgonepostal said:

>Does anyone remember back in Season 1 when Jack saved Boone after Boone tried to save the woman that was drowning. Charlie came running down the beach yelling "I can't swim." Then Charlie saves the day by not only swimming but diving down to the hatch. That has always bugged me! It's not only the prop people that make mistakes.

In addition, on one of the S-2 DVD's, commenting on a swimming scene involving Charlie, Dominic Monoghan said "Charlie's not a very good swimmer. Dominic Monoghan swims like a fish, but Charlie's not a very good swimmer." I commented on this after "Through the Looking Glass".

What it means to me is:

1) Charlie can swim, just not very well (and indeed we see him swimming 'not very well' in TTLG.)

2) Nevertheless, Charlie volunteers for the suicide mission because a) he seems fated to, and b) It will help Claire and Aaron get off the island.

3) This makes Charlie's self-sacrifice even more poignant.

#447. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 17, 2008 12:24 PM

And now - the continuation of my ff analysis....

I gotta say - not as much meat in e4-7 in terms of the O6 story. Nowhere near as meaty as the previous stuff, IMHO.

In Eggtown, most of the ff's pertain to Kate's trial, and the build up of the Aaron revelation.

The first ff has Kate and her lawyer entering the courthouse. Kate asks if there is a back entrance, but her lawyer insists that she go through the front with her head held high. When she is in front of the judge, she pleads not guilty to charges of fraud, arson, assault on federal officer, assault with deadly weapon, grand larceny, grand theft auto, and murder in the first degree. The prosecutor requests that Kate be held in custody for the duration of the trial, and the judge agrees that she is a flight risk based on her past history. She is handcuffed.

In the next ff, Kate is brought to a room to see her lawyer. The lawyer tells Kate that the DA will prosecute herself. The lawyer believes a deal will be offered - 15 years, of which she will serve 7. Kate is against this. The lawyer mentions there will be 20 years for each count, and a life sentence for the murder. The lawyer advises to make this about character, and not about what Kate did or didn't do. He states "I want him in the courtroom" and Kate responds "Absolutely not". He continues, "We need him Kate - it will generate tremendous symp.." Kate cuts him off "Duncan - listen to me - you are not bringing him in here. You wanna make this about me, about my character - fine - but you are not using my son."

The next ff is in the courtroom. Kate's lawyer tells Kate "Don't fire me, Ok. We got killed in the opening... I had to do this". He then calls Jack as a character witness for the defense. He is sworn in, and tells them that he met Kate on Flight 815, "which crash landed on an island in the south Pacific." Jack is asked if he knew that Kate was a fugitive traveling with a Marshal, and Jack answers "I found out eventually." Jack lies and says that the Marshal died in the crash, and that he had never spoken to him, and that Kate told him this afterwards. When asked if he had asked Kate if she was guilty, Jack responds that he had not, and that he assumed that it was just some kind of mistake. Jack continues "Only 8 of us survived the crash - we landed in the water." He falsely described how Kate saved everyone, and as he is about to talk about the other 2, Kate cuts him off - "Stop". She indicates that it is her trial, and that she does not want him to say any more. When the DA is called to cross examine Jack, she mentions that the testimony was very moving, and that she has but one question - "Do you love the defendant?" Jack responds "no... not any more".

In the next ff, Kate's mom is wheeled into a room with Kate so they can talk in private. She asks if what Jack said was true, but Kate does not answer. Mom indicated that she has had 6 months to live for the past 4 years, and that she does not want to testify against Kate. She then says "I want to see my grandson". Kate gets upset, and states that she does not want her anywhere near him, and leaves.

The next ff is in the courtroom, and we find out that Kate's mom "can't testify for medical reasons." The DA meets with Kate and her lawyer in private, and we are told that Kates mom will not testify at all. They bargain. The DA offers time served, 10 years probation during which Kate can't leave the state. Kate's lawyer responds "What does that matter? She can go anywhere..." Kate cuts in "I'll take it". Lawyer - "No wait Kate" Kate - "Give me something to sign and I'll sign it. And then I'll walk out that back door.... I just...... I just want this to be over". DA - "I can do that" Kate states "I have a child - I'm not going anywhere".

Kate is then leaving through the back to a cab, but Jack intercepts. Kate thanks Jack for saying what he did. Kate - "You know Jack - I've heard you say that story so many times - I'm starting to think you believe it." Jack - "I just wanted to tell you, what i said in there - i didn't mean it." Kate - "You wanna follow me - come by for a visit?" Jack - "I actually have to get over to the hospital... but um... maybe you and I could grab some coffee together or something?" Kate - "I know why you don't want to see the baby Jack. But until you do - until you want to - there's no you or me going for coffee" Jack nods, Kate - "But um, if at any time you change your mind, come and see us." Jack "Yeah... Ok." They say bye, and Kate enters the cab. The cab drops Kate off at her house. Kate hugs the woman who has been taking care of Aaron, and Kate asks if she kept him away from the TV. Kate goes upstairs, hugs the infant who says "Hi mummy", and she says "Hi Aaron".

The most important thing to note is that Aaron's origins are never ever discussed. He is only identified as Kate's son, but we have no idea how this came to be. What is clear is that Kate is very protective of him, and is unwilling to bring him out to the public even when she is facing heavy jail times and the odds are against her. Kate can't stand hearing Jack tell the BS story of the crash, and she even cuts him off. Could this be because of feelings of guilt for who was left behind?

Despite her mom's willingness to not testify, Kate will not let her meet Aaron. It is unclear if this is due to her anger with her mother, or if this is because Kate is just very protective of Aaron. In the plea bargain, as Kate puts it, she just wants things to be over. Despite possibly being able to get a better deal, she settles for time served and 10 years where she can't leave the state. I suspect this will come and bite her in the ass when she eventually has a change of heart, and decides to return to the island.

Too soon to tell why Jack does not want to see Aaron, but it seems to be due to guilt. I'm sure we will learn over time...

The Constant and The Other Woman do not use ff's.

I will say nothing about the Constant, as there is no way to throw out short points about it because it is both complicated and awesome. Also, there is nothing in that episode that specifically deals with the O6, leaving the island, etc.

A few things from the Other Woman...

When Juliet is talking to rain-whisper-Harper, Harper tells Juliette that she is relaying a message from Ben. She says Ben wants Juliette to go and stop Faraday and Charlotte from deploying the gas from the Tempest. Juliette asks "Why don't you stop them?" Harper - "Because Ben wants you to go" Juliette - "How can Ben possibly know where they are when he's a prisoner." Harper - "Ben is exactly where he wants to be."

In Eggtown, when Kate is talking to an imprisoned Miles, she tells him she will not release him, and Miles responds, "I don't want to be let go. I'm exactly where I want to be."

Not certain what this means, but I find it strange that the same phrase was used in both cases. Why is it that both Ben and Miles would be "exactly where they want to be" when they are prisoners, and being treated harshly? I think it is important to keep in mind that we are far from certain that Ben actually sent Harper, as we only have rain-whisper-Harper's word for it. I'm not certain I buy it. Isn't Ben cheesed off that Juliette betrayed the Others with the tent marking thing? Why would Ben believe that she would help him after that?

With Ji Yeon, we return to ff's, though this time in a deceptive manor, as there is a mix with flashbacks. They carefully try to give the impression that both Jin and Sun have left the island.

In the first ff, we see Sun in her bathroom, packing things together. In the background, we hear the tv playing, and just before Sun turns the tv off, we see that it is the episode of Expose where the character that Nikki played is killed off (foreshadowing of the deception that we are being set up for). As Sun is about to put on lipstick, she goes into labour. She calls for an ambulance, and says "I'm pregnant, and I think something is wrong".

After the LOST title swings by, the next scene is of Jin. We naturally assume it is an ff because it is the first scene that follows Sun's phone call. Jin is running along a street, and he enters a toy store. He buys a panda, and mentions that he is on his way to the hospital. He receives a phone call (we are meant to think it is Sun), and he confirms that he is on his way.

The next ff is Sun being wheeled into the hospital. Immediately, she is recognized as an O6 member by a hospital worker. Jewelry is removed, but Sun resists removing her ring. Dr. Bae comes in and introduces himself, and explains that he is on duty fro Dr. Park, who is away at a conference. Sun is injected with something to help with the pain. Sun asks "Is something wrong with my baby?" Bae - "It is in distress" Sun - "What's wrong?" Bae - "I don't know yet. That's what I'm going to find out. Is there anyone we should contact? Your husband? Your parents?" Sun smiles and nods - "Just get Jin... my husband..." (If you look closely at Suns face, it is clear that the meds are working - her eyes are closing and she is calming down). The doctor says he will do his best.

The scene shifts to fb - Jin running with Panda, trying to flag a cab. As he tosses the Panda in, his phone rings. Jin says "I'm on my way" (Once again, we are meant to think that the Doctor is living up to his word), but someone bumps into him and his phone is knocked out of his hand, and gets trashed. As he is picking it up, someone get into the cab and takes off. Jin returns to the toy store, and asks for another Panda, but is told it was the last one. There is a Panda behind the shop keeper that is on hold. The keeper offers an alternative - "In the Year of the dragon it brings good luck". Jin slams the money down - "I need the panda."

The next ff is of Sun in labour. Doc - "I have to perform a C-section." Sun - "No". Doc - "You don't understand... the medication makes a natural birth difficult" Sun - "No, no! Not until Jin..." Doc - "We've got to get to surgery" Sun - "Where's my husband?" Doc - "He's not here yet... We cannot wait!" The nurse mentions the baby is crowning, and Sun shortly gives birth to Ji Yeon.

Before the next Jin fb, there is the scene where Jin forgives Sun for her affair. Jin enters the hospital with Panda. He introduces himself as a Paik automotive rep, and presents the Panda to the Chinese ambassador. As he is leaving, a female worker asks why he is leaving so soon, and Jin responds that it was not his baby. She jokingly adds "Well maybe someday..." and Jin responds "Don't rush me.... I've only been married two months."

We then jump to ff, where Sun takes the ring out of a bag, and slides it on her finger. The doorbell rings - It is Hurley in a suit. Sun greets him and says "I can't believe you came all this way". Hurley asks if anyone else is coming, and Sun shakes her head - Hurley responds "Good". Hurley holds the baby, and exclaims that she looks like Jin. They then go to the graveyard. When they approach the grave, Sun speaks "Jin.. you were right... It's a girl... The delivery was hard on me... The doctor said I was calling out for you...I wish you could've been there.... Jin... She's beautiful. Ji Yeon. I named her just like you wanted. I miss you so much. I miss you so much."

In any case - I believe it is pretty clear that both fb's and ff's were used. In terms of a timeline, this takes place around July or August 2005. Clearly, this is pre institution Hugo. As mentioned, the graveyard dialogue is vague on purpose - it could apply to either Jin being dead, or still stuck on the island.

Hope this helps clarify things....

#448. Posted by: shikotee at March 17, 2008 12:36 PM

@354. Posted by: Helen
re: Ben's secret room

Good point - the secret room in itself implies that Ben is hiding this side of his life from the rest of the Others. Perhaps there is some kind of secret passage in his basement? There is a belief that there still is some kind of an underground tunnel network from some of the hatches (based on the diagram Sayid snagged from the Flame).

@376 Posted by: ealgumby

Lol! I feel like I'm having a Locke/Jack breakdown with you, a-la man of science vs man of faith!

It's not that I mind that you have a different view - that is healthy and awesome!

I think my issue is that you read into something, and you insist that it is FACT.

I dunno - I guess it just rubs my rhubarb the wrong way, as my methodology is a little different.

"Mighty convenient to claim sloppy prop placement one moment, and brilliantly anal set-piecing the next, as it suits you."

Is it really all that sloppy? Out of the millions of viewers of this show, how many do you think would pick up on the things that you are claiming? Things are confusing as it is - do you really think they would weigh massive plot points on such small details?

In any case - most importantly - where does your ff Jin events lead us? Do you really think the writers decided to split Jin and Sun up? What you are suggesting completely negates the sheer depth and beauty of character development that has transpired with Jin and Sun. While the Jin fb was sneaky and misleading, it is also serves as a contrast, reminding us of the values Jin served prior to his island change.

Sorry - JIn traveling in time VS Jin sacrificing either his life or his emancipation from the island to save his wife/unborn child is just much more convincing to me!

With that said - feel free to interpret as you see fit! Who knows - your version of things could turn out to be right.

I do not want to be the guy who tells you "what you can't do".

Remember - this is a discussion about a tv show. Let's have fun!

@381 posted by DW

Thanks for the kudos! Firstly, we have no idea if Widmore is even around in the future, but it makes sense to assume he would be. We have no idea if the freighter people will ever be able to relay any of the info they gather while on the island - perhaps they will end up stuck there? I guess alot will depend on the O6 lie, which seems to be centered on them surviving the crash, and having zero interaction with anyone else. Would you assume that a flight crash surviver would turn out to be an assassin? Remember - Ben only recruits Sayid some time later after the O6 return. Widmore could have kept tabs on Sayid early on, and depending on what Sayid was doing, it may have seemed that he was simply a crash survivor.

@390 Posted by: Scooby-Dude

I think the sub is toast. I would assume that after the explosion, people did go check out the area, and that they found some debris. For sure, there is still some other way off that island. They do have Desmond's boat, and the other boat that was used for transport between the Hydra and the main island. When Sawyer and Kate were busting rocks, it was mentioned that this was for a runway, was it not? Maybe he just uses y'olde magic box transporter (Beam me up Jacob!).

@391 posted by Alaïs_Longthought

I don't think it is hard core blackmail - No doubt Sayid will still have reservations about Ben as a person, but he believes (via Ben's manipulation) that what he is doing will protect the people still on the island.

@394 posted by Alaïs_Longthought

Spot on!

@408. Posted by: davidrh

"This whole problem started when the sky turned purple outside my office window."

Nice!

@429. Posted by: Clementine

I wouldn't lose sleep over the last of the O6. They will let us know when they are good and ready, and no doubt, it will be a mind-f**k! Oh those sneaky sneaky writers!

@430 Posted by: Debunker

Awesome! Good analysis of data/facts!

@433. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

Ibid - Good analysis of data/facts

@436. Posted by: Not an Other

We have no idea what the process will be of the O6 returning to the real world. Is there a public reception for them the moment they land/dock, or do they go public shortly after? They most certainly could have returned in stealth, and it could be that Aaron is not known by the public to have come from the island. There simply isn't enough data as of yet to determine either or. It will be much better storytelling if Aaron is not one of the six.

@437. Posted by: pebspostal

There is no way that Kate could visit Sun, before or after the trial, due to her status as a fugitive, and then the limitations of her probation. We do not know if Sayid is killing people during this time interval, and I highly suspect that he is not. I think that happens later.

Sure - a part of the lie could be that it was another island.

I do not think that the rest of the O6 are aware of Sayid's killing ways, as there has been nothing to suggest that, Yet - that is!

@442. Posted by: Clementine

Once again, thanks for the back up! I looked at that quote, "I'm trying to be a little more nice now... It's really hard after reading stupid comments... I just find the urge to bash them." and I was confused. Did I black out and go postal at some point?

I think it was our youthful resident Ben lover who mentioned this, but I could be wrong.

@440 Posted by: En Provence

re: Locke's mom in casket

Lol! This was a total guess! Would be pretty funny if it turned out to be true! Hope things go well with the recovery! Careful with the meds - don't go ff Jack on us!

@444. Posted by: En Provence

"um, i think i may have just posted a comment that's longer than Mac's recap."

Ummmmmm..... No comment!
Lol! - i totally went bezerko this week in the long post dept!

@446. Posted by: En Provence

Lol - It is all Coolio and the gang!

@447. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Good points a-la Charlie. With the S1 no swim, I also took into account that this Charlie was still in heroin withdrawal. His body is not doubt feeling all whacky - the last thing he would want to or be able to do is swim out and save someone.

#449. Posted by: shikotee at March 17, 2008 1:19 PM

Re: Oceanic Six
As I mentioned earlier, here's a quote from ABC's official recap of last week's ep: "Sun is the latest member of the Oceanic Six." I could not find anything on their web site that lists all of them. Could it be that we haven't been introduced to #5 yet? Of all the mysteries that abound, I wish we could just settle this one.

#450. Posted by: lovelost at March 17, 2008 1:24 PM

Thanks for your FF reviews shikotee, I enjoyed reading them. It's nice to be reminded of some of the details of each ep that tend to get Lost in the shuffle.

Ealgumby, you make some great arguments for Jin's part being a FF like Sun's was...mostly the cars and cell phone. But I just can't agree with you Bruthuh.

The vast majority of Lost watchers are average-Joe watchers who wouldn't notice the cars and would see the cell as just a bigger one like all older ones were.

You also make great points about how it's sloppy to make some small details so important to the show and others not so important...and how are we to know the difference.

But the biggest details point to Jin's part being a FB. Him only being married 2 months, working for Sun's dad like he was early in their marriage, being more prone to violence (shouting at the cab-stealer that he would kill him), etc.

Maybe the prop person's only instructions were to have Jin use a bigger (and therefore older looking) cell. Maybe time/budget constraints did not allow them to get all pre-2001 cars in the shot.

I guess my whole point is that the episode worked hard to make average-Joe Lost viewer believe both were FF's until the end when it was revealed that Jin's was a FB and he was most likely dead (or at least not with Sun and therefore not one of the O6). To later reveal that Jin's story was actually a FF...that he had re-married, worked for Paik AGAIN, and didn't care about seeing his and Sun's baby...would add just too much confusion to an already confusing episode. For average-Joe Lost fans that is.

Having said all this, I really hope you don't back down (as I'm not backing down about Turnip-Head being one of the 6!) in your belief that it was a FF. Your analysis and logic were awesome to read and you could very well prove us all wrong sometime soon!

But I doubt it. ;o)

#451. Posted by: JoePike at March 17, 2008 1:25 PM

The Toyota Matrix IS placed purposefully. It demonstrates that the whole show is not real and merely takes place in the Matrix!

Aaron is one of the six. The writers were being coy and not answering whther he was or was not because they wanted everyone to think that Jin and Sun made it off the island. Seeing that Jin did not get off the island means that Aaron is the sixth. We know all six now.

Its amazing but until reading the blog on Friday I never considered the possibility of Jin still being alive. I love the idea though.
The date on the headstone is what gets me. If the public at large thinks he died in the crash they put the date of the crash on the stone. If he died sometime after the crash, Sun would have made sure the correct date was on there. She would not have wanted to deny the time spent after the crash in which he changed so much from how he was before.
So while I do still think he probably is dead and buried at the sight (Sun just seemed so genuine in her grief as if he were dead and it seems as though the FF/FB is the big 'GOTCHA' rather than having another twist where they say 'just kidding--he's alive')
I do hold out hope that they will surprise me and have Jin survive. I so want the Jin/Sun story to end happily. They are one of the nicest love stories on tv (god--I am such a girly man sometimes!)

I think Jin's story was a flashback just as it initially appeared to be. While intrigued by some of the compelling arguments for it being a flashforward, I believe sometimes we do need to take things at face value.

#452. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 17, 2008 1:53 PM

Holy crap!

Did my super long posts cause filmfodder to crash for a few hours?

Or did someone just swim back down to the Looking Glass and turn the jamming back on? If so - How's Charlie looking?

#453. Posted by: shikotee at March 17, 2008 4:04 PM

Invoking the KISS principle your honor -
I am just a humble motivational speaker... "living in a van - down by the river" - but when the ABC recap, the day after the episode, refers to Sun story as a "Flash-forward" and then to Jins' story as a "Flash-back". I am going to say Jin was a FB plotline and not a FF.

#454. Posted by: DocH at March 17, 2008 4:11 PM

-454. Posted by: DocH

Nice shout-out to Chris Farley. RIP

Ditto on your FF/FB remark. I'd like to see that argument RIP, too.

ILBLXX: I’m not on your list! C’mon; I am the panda, after all.

#455. Posted by: lovelost at March 17, 2008 4:22 PM

How can Aaron be one of the Oceanic Six? He wasn't a passenger. He wasn't on the manifest. He doesn't have a passport therefore there would have been no record of him "boarding" the plane. I refuse to believe he is one of the Oceanic Six.

#456. Posted by: AC at March 17, 2008 4:32 PM

@MistyMistyMistyMistyMistyMistyMisty

You've got a real hair trigger on that mouse!

Did you say Sun was putting on an elaborate engagement ring when Hurley was arriving? On the island I think she only wore a simple wedding band & Jin being a fisherman's son probably couldn't afford anything more than that. So who gave her the rock? Is she planning to remarry? That might explain why Hurley said "good" when Sun said nobody (like her fiancee) would be joining them at the cemetary.

#457. Posted by: cookie at March 17, 2008 4:43 PM

Why does everyone assume that Jack's first flashforward is the last ever LOST scene we'll see. We're all assuming that the other flash forwards all intermingle between the time they get off the island and Jack's first flash forward, when he is drunk, crazy and growing a massive beehive of a beard. Have the ABC peeps told us that Jack and Kate never make it back to the island?

If Jack has a massive beehive beard isn't it more simpler to assume that he has 'just' arrived off the island not that its several years in the future?

#458. Posted by: AC at March 17, 2008 4:44 PM

@451. Posted by: JoePike

Well put! Everyone has the right and freedom to share their beliefs, and this should be highly encouraged.

Glad you liked the FF posts - it was the culmination of what I will forever refer to as my period of Lost madness (similar to more cowbell?).

Seriously - re-watching the show at a relatively swift pace has been a strange experience. So much information! Can someone tell me if my nose is bleeding?

And from where I stand, I have to wonder - how did my transformation from occasional poster to "whacked out pseudo obsessed guy" come into being?

Damn you extremely entertaining Season 4 - did you somehow mix heroin into the episodes to get me hooked? (I feel so cold!!!!)

Sadly, the last fix for a month is coming this Thursday, which is a little spooky. Only 5 more fixes after that, and then there will be the time to drift away and forget....

@452. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes

re: headstone

Here's the real mind bender - this is possibly a 2nd tombstone. When 815 goes missing in September 2004, after a period of initial searching, I'm sure plenty of people gave up and put up memorials for their lost loved ones.

When fake 815 is found, it is announced that the bodies will not be recovered (due to depth), but at least families will have closure.

Would not the Paik's have put something up for both Sun and Jin, marking both as dead? Whether Mr. Paik turns out to be connected to island things or not, he is a powerful prominent man, and he would be expected to put up a memorial for them.

When Sun returns as a member of the O6, this memorial is taken down, and it is replaced with the one we saw, which consists of a birth and death date for Jin, and only a birth date for Sun (as she is alive).

lol - Two headstones, and both erroneous (if you believe that Jin is still alive and kicking on the island, and that his death is but a part of the O6 lie).

#459. Posted by: shikotee at March 17, 2008 5:18 PM

@ En Provence - 446
That was me... I get it. =]

This is a great community. I feel like we're all one big happy family!!!

How are keyboards in France? (I'm pretty sure that's where you said you were from) I've always wondered that. I mean, in general, how are keyboards in countries other than America? I know that's totally off topic and random and probably even stupid, but I'm just wondering.

Get better!!!

@ shikotee - 448
Excellent recap/analysis/outline of FF's. Whatever you want to call it.

It kind of seemed that Jack was Kate's son in "Eggtown", but we all know that's not the case. Unless of course some psycho "Peter Pan" thing went on. Just saying, that was the first thing that came to my mind as I was reading.

@ JoePike - 451
Aaron is not one of the six. You can say it as much as you want, but you'll see; and all I will have left to say is:

"I TOLD YOU SO! HAVE FUN EATING YOUR HAT."

#460. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 17, 2008 5:40 PM

→ 375. Posted by: gladly_LOST

I, too, wondered if Regina could be BMOTB. Yes, we know that Michael is A MOTB, but not necessarily BMOTB. And maybe that's why the crew was not concerned about her going overboard. Maybe they know she's on a mission. Or maybe not.

Agree w/those who say: more questions than answers. But isn't it fun?

#461. Posted by: lovelost at March 17, 2008 5:45 PM

I say we need a new family portrait.

Everyone in favor say, "I"
Everyone opposed say, "Ne!"

I. =]

#462. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 17, 2008 6:03 PM

Scotty: Captain, I can't hold the shields much longer ... one more hit and we're through!

Kirk: Time for the "Kobayashi Maru" maneuver!

*****

Namaste.

Must be time for more fun ... try this on for size: Sun and Jin were NOT married in 2000 (nor 2001, nor earlier), and I can prove it (with canonical evidence)!

I will present my case shortly.

What I will show is:

(1) the "year of the dragon" comment was meaningless obfuscation (to use one my favorite "X-Files" terms)
(2) I am no longer SO hard core on Jin's scenes not being FB, but absolutely not to 2000 (maybe 2004, pre-flight), and still "most likely" mid-2005
(3) I cannot prove with 100% certainty that Jin's scenes are FB or FF, but they are certainly not in 2000, and no one here can "prove" otherwise with canonical evidence.


Aside:
@shikotee/449
"I think my issue is that you read into something, and you insist that it is FACT."

OH, completely disagree, exactly the opposite, as I will hopefully demonstrate ... I base my comments on scientific principle, where hypothesis must be supported with FACT ... I have up to now only been pointing out that the "Jin's scenes are obviously FB to 2000" are NOT based on fact, and there are alternate (and in fact, much better) explanations, no less likely. I am also not adamant about being correct (and if I am eventually proven wrong will freely admit it - as I did with regard to the "whooshes"), but I AM adamant that I cannot be canonically proven wrong, nor the majority of opinion here correct.

Let me gather my facts, and compile a rather long dissertation explaining my position (which I realize few will likely read because of the length). However, I now feel the need to present my case in detail ... if I win over only one or two converts, I will be pleased; if not, oh well ... it is just a TV show. If my intensity in debate tends to relate stronger feeling than that, I apologize ... I have made my living providing professional analysis of difficult problems, and do tend toward the focused/intense/passionate side in argument (and all else), but mean nothing by it personally.

#463. Posted by: ealgumby at March 17, 2008 6:07 PM

Okay... I have one question. If the "new-face" of filmfodder had a new "Simpsonized" icon... would dublXX look exactly like "Lisa Simpson"?

#464. Posted by: DocH at March 17, 2008 6:30 PM

If the "new-face" of filmfodder had a new "Simpsonized" icon... would dublXX look exactly like "Lisa Simpson"?
→ 464. Posted by: DocH

Totally, man.

#465. Posted by: lovelost at March 17, 2008 6:38 PM

@ ealgumby - 463
JUST a TV show? I'm sure you don't mean that.

@ DocH - 464; lovelost - 465
"If the "new-face" of filmfodder had a new "Simpsonized" icon... would dublXX look exactly like "Lisa Simpson"?"

Not sure weather to take that as a compliment, an insult, or just a statement.
But...thanks. =/

jp. Lisa's smart. =]

#466. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 17, 2008 6:49 PM

@463. Posted by: ealgumby

"From Hell's heart I stab at thee!"

Sorry - couldn't resist! Had to throw in my token Captain Ahab reference, though others might simply think of Kahn!

Dude - I think we're both nutters. Maybe we listened to some whacked out transmissions coming from the Pacific!

Anyhoots - good luck with your hunt!

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!!!!"

or,

"KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHN!!!!"

or better yet,

"SCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARF!!!!"

#467. Posted by: shikotee at March 17, 2008 6:56 PM

Not sure weather to take that as a compliment, an insult, or just a statement.
→ 466. ILBJXX

No insults here. Sarcasm yes; but no insults. Remember...we're one big HAPPY family. I think it's great to have a young, usually smart (couldn't resist), POV on this site.

#468. Posted by: lovelost at March 17, 2008 7:00 PM

@ lovelost - 468
Haha, thanks! =P

Oh and btw, you are on my list =]
You are the panda, after all.

=D (evil yet?)

#469. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 17, 2008 7:27 PM

dublXX - definitely not a slam with the Lisa Simpson ref. About, or more than, a year ago, the keel on this ship (old heads') had a Simpsonized portrait constructed Bcre8'ed. No one has filled the Lisa shoes'til now. Lisa is my fav... smart, well read, enthusiastic, idealistic - not a shred of pragmatism...

#470. Posted by: DocH at March 17, 2008 7:59 PM

Regarding some of the earlier posts, it seems that many people are dumbfounded by Ben's ability to stage such intricate and incredibly well-thought out plans.

Its pretty easy to deduce that Ben has found a way to manipulate time, or has some other supernatural force at work here. Why else would he always be so calm, so at ease despite being held captive by the Losties for so much of the show? Either Ben has control of time and can do all these miraculous things, or Jacob is controlling it, and Ben follows through on Jacob's wishes...

#471. Posted by: Boozy at March 17, 2008 8:00 PM

Just a reminder to all: There is no contest or AWARD for longest rational comment (because davidrh has not invented it yet). And the poster who creates the longest irrational comment will be bound tight with a live grenade in their mouth and locked in the Pearl Station toilet with Paulo.

Brevity is the soul of lingerie. ~Dorothy Parker

That being said, here’s my entry. I hope I WIN! And I’d like to dedicate this to DW, and he knows why ;)

#448 shikotee said: “I think it is important to keep in mind that we are far from certain that Ben actually sent Harper, as we only have rain-whisper-Harper's word for it. I'm not certain I buy it.”

I never thought Ben sent Harper, although I couldn’t exactly express why. But I just watched the 3rd season ep “The Cost of Living,” and I’m going to dredge up an old theory and beat it to death with my Jesus-stick.

“The Cost of Living” was Eko-centric leading up to his murder by Smoke Monster. His brother Yemi appeared to Eko when he was in a coma following the Hatch implosion, telling him it was time to confess his sins and he knew where to find him. Eko took off into the jungle headed for the wreckage of the Nigerian drug plane and his brother’s body. Along the way (keeping in mind he was delirious) he was stalked by the Smoke Monster, saw Yemi appear several times and also fought (delusions of?) drug smugglers. Also appearing to Eko was a young altar boy who had witnessed Eko murder some local ruffians back in the African village where Eko pretended to be a priest.

When Eko arrived at the plane, he found his brother’s body was missing. Yemi appeared to him again, and Eko chased his apparition into the jungle. There, Eko told his brother that he had not sinned, and he would not repent. He did what he needed to do to survive. Eko said, “I have not asked for the life I have been given, but it has been given to me nonetheless.

Yemi replied, “You speak to me as if I were your brother.” (Awesome line!) Eko began reciting the 23rd Psalm (The Lord is My Shepherd) and was then snatched up by Smokey and beaten to death against the very surface of the island. When asked what Eko said as he lay dying, Locke replied, “We’re next.”

(@En Provence: Another great episode to revisit during your recovery!)

I know at one time or another we had a few theories about the island “ghosts”, but what do we think now that we have more information (or, should I say, more ghosts)?

We have “ghosts” whose dead bodies are unburied:
Yemi
Drug smugglers (on the Nigerian plane)
Christian Shephard
Charlie

We have apparitions of people - we don’t know if they’re dead:
Locke’s mother
Walt
Harper
Eko’s altar boy
Dave (Hurley’s friend – did he ever really exist?)

We have a “ghost” who appears to us, the viewer, and no one else (well, except for Vincent):
Christian Shephard (in the final Missing Pieces mobisode)

We have an off-island “ghost”:
Charlie

We have a pharmacologically-induced “ghost” vision:
Boone

We have “ghosts” who can be seen by more than one person:
Charlie
Harper (dead or not?)

We have a ghost-buster:
Miles Straume

And, finally, we have:
Jacob

Let me gather my facts, and compile a rather long dissertation

Here’s my theory:

According to Rousseau, Smokey is the island “security system.” We now know that Ben’s (and by inference, Jacob’s) goal is to keep the island a secret. We often suspected that Smokey was behind some of the apparitions.

I propose that Smokey, at the behest of the island (perhaps with some direction from Ben and/or Jacob) is the force behind ALL of the “ghosts.”

Even off-island “ghost” Charlie, who visits Hurley in a bid to get the Oceanic Six back where they belong. (And where they can’t blab about the island).

And Taller Ghost Walt, who raises Locke/Lazarus from the grave with “You have work to do, John.” (Lead my people away from “rescue”)

If this is true, will Miles be the spoiler who has the ability to break Smokey’s connection with the dead? Or will 30 pieces of silver ($3.2 million) be his price to walk away?

BTW, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Naomi.

#472. Posted by: Clementine at March 17, 2008 8:44 PM

Just had to end (my day) with a St Pandy joke.

Walking into the bar, the Panda said to Ben the bartender, "Pour me a stiff
one - just had another fight with Cindy, the little woman."

"Oh yeah?" said Ben, "And how did this one end?"

"When it was over," the Panda replied, "She came to me, scarf in place, on her hands and knees.

"Really," said Ben, "Now that's a switch! What did she say?"

She said, "Come out from under the bed, you little chicken."

Off to sip some green Dharma beer. mmmm

#473. Posted by: lovelost at March 17, 2008 8:45 PM

*#*#*#*#

THE MYSTERY OF LOST SOLVED!! FINALLY!!
Here is my guess - and obviously, it is only a guess, so I could be right or I could be wrong: I THINK IT WAS COLONEL MUSTARD IN THE CONSERVATORY WITH THE CANDLESTICK!

*#*#*#*#*#

Hey - ilovebenjaminlinusxx - who else is on this list of yours? Do you keep it in your secret room with all of your forged passports and fake IDs? Did Jacob give you this list? WE WANT THE TRUTH!


#474. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 17, 2008 8:55 PM

@Clementine/472
"Just a reminder to all: There is no contest or AWARD for longest rational comment (because davidrh has not invented it yet). And the poster who creates the longest irrational comment will be bound tight with a live grenade in their mouth and locked in the Pearl Station toilet with Paulo."

Thanks ... still working on my long post ... I once stayed on my feet over 82 hours straight in support of an operational scenario where my assistance was required ... until my legs gave way ... and spent the next six hours giving direction laying on the floor, under console, until the sutuation was resolved ... I am not afraid. I look forward to the challenge ...

#475. Posted by: ealgumby at March 17, 2008 8:56 PM

When Hurley went to pick up Sun, he asked if anyone else was coming. When she said no, he smiled and said "good". Maybe he was afraid that Charlie would appear again...?

#476. Posted by: sandivon at March 17, 2008 8:59 PM

sorry if i'm repeating stuff already mentioned but when Jin was in the hospital was clearly a Flash-back.
Everything to do with Jin off-isloand was clearly a flash-forward.
They did a pretty convincing job of mourning over Jin's death which makes me wonder is someone watching them or is he really dead.
Hugo seemed happy that no-one else was 'coming' which seemed a bit anti-social but might be connected to the above theory of putting on a good show at the grave.
Ben spoke to Sayid about doing his work to keep his friends 'safe' in a previous episode. I personally think Ben is behind the whole cover up and has played 'Mr Vunerable' till he got off the island. His company (who managed to recruit Juliet and vast others) was behind the fake plane recovery but managed to explain how 6 people actually survived after all...."oops wrong head count sorry, happens all the time". Ben agrees to let 6 off the island but is keeping the rest hostage so he can manipulate who he needs to off-island. I'm thoroughly convinced that Ben is having the preminitions that Desmond was having as he is always 5 or 6 steps ahead i.e. putting Michael on the boat playing Locke like a fiddle "end up with a full blown insurrection on your hands", (yet still convinces Locke to let him walk around free which sawyer and the rest see as weakness and start losing faith in Locke which Ben make happen hmmmm sneaky). I reckon ben is more in touch with the island than anyone but is playing the "I really want to belong to something" card to lead everyone to think he's winging it.
As for the island, time doesn't exist there. Time ripples surround it so depending on how you get to the island causes a varying degree of a time shift i.e. hours, days, years. When a person enters the island their body exists as one point in time so any afflictions that have happened to them as a result of time eg paralysis, cancer, injury, no longer have an affect. Because the island doesnt exist in time only space both are accessible from the island thats why fossilized polar bear remains with Dharma logos were found in the desert.
As for the box and the giant foot you tell me. There does seem to be a theme within the show to do with transferable consciousness so maybe the box has somethng to do with that. Eg Locke concentrated on his father and at his father's point-of-death was transferred to the island.

#477. Posted by: tom hicks at March 17, 2008 9:28 PM

@Crispy Seaplanes #542: "The date on the headstone is what gets me. If the public at large thinks he died in the crash they put the date of the crash on the stone. If he died sometime after the crash, Sun would have made sure the correct date was on there. She would not have wanted to deny the time spent after the crash in which he changed so much from how he was before."

Crispy, I'm speechless. What a nice thought!

@ealgumby #475: As long as you don't crash the Blog, I'm always happy to read your posts. If you do crash the Blog - Paulo will be waiting for you at the Pearl.

#478. Posted by: Clementine at March 17, 2008 9:32 PM

oh sorry jus to say i think jacob is Locke consciousness from a different point in time

#479. Posted by: tom hicks at March 17, 2008 9:35 PM

@ DocH - 470
Well thank you then! I guess it would be terrible if I took it as anything less than a SUPER COMPLIMENT! =]

I think I can beat all of you with the longest rational comments. But uh... not now.

Mucho testos tomorrowo. (Tengo muchas pruebas manana) that I didn't study for... nor do I plan on it. Which I guess doesn't really help much.

@ Mr_Naysayer - 474
YOU WANT THE TRUTH?!?! YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!! *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*

Oh yeah, DocH is on my list too! I don't know how or why I forgot so many people.

=D (WHEN WILL MY SMILEY LOOK EVIL?!?!)

#480. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 17, 2008 10:02 PM

Oh yeah, I already told DocH he's on the list.

SORRY.

I believe I may have forgotten Clementine... and anyone else.

Not sure why I'm pointing this out... It's not like any of you would feel bad if you weren't on it anyway.

I wouldn't feel the need to gain respect for me...

But for Mr_Naysayer... the list means so much more than just that.

#481. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 17, 2008 10:07 PM

The "for" is supposed to be a "from".

Grammar freak.

Everytime I think about grammar now, I think of "Eats shoots and leaves"

Hahaha.

#482. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 17, 2008 10:10 PM

Redbee mentioned about 8 survived and 2 died. I was wondeirng did they say Claire survived but died in childbirth to explain Aaron or are they passing off Aaron as Kate's child. I agree with David's comment about aaron being ready to be born and hence the 6th member. Airlines do keep a record of pregnant passengers for midical reasons so that works.
Did they include Jin as a survivor to explain Sun's pregnancy or did they get away with saying she was pregnant before getting to the island. Jin would have to have been a busy guy to get Sun preggers and die in the same day. I keep saying 'they' as i am utterly convinced that Ben and his front comapny have masterminded the whole rescue/ media circus.
I think the inclusion of the flash-forward and flash-back in the same episode is of vital importance as it is trying to suggest that the island can affect both. Jin is clearly alive as Sun was shouting for him during childbirth and then had to say to Hurley "Oh i was calling for Jin" as if it was a big suprise to convince anyone listening.

Oh i'm pretty sure Jin and Sun are Korean not Japanese.
Even if Jin's flashback is staged in China doesn't mean he is living there. He is on business afterall and it sounds like some sort of political business so he could just be there on a weekend trip.

A confusing bit for me was in the last episode of season 3 when Jack goes to see the dead body "friend or family?", "Neither". Who could that be if all people are accounted for.
'Jack
Kate
Hurley
Sayid
Sun
Aaron'
(Ben gets off the island on his own accord i reckon pretneding to be freighter crew after he murders everyone on board via his cunning plan...whahahaha)
Maybe there is a 6th survivor yet to be mentioned (not Aaron)but the lost people said we would know all 6 by the end of this episode.
That 'neither friend or family' blokey could be another person who got off the island via the freighter or someother means eg Desmond or Michael. That person's death does seem to trigger some guilt in Jack so it could be a good person that Jack doesnt consider a friend....or it could be Faraday, Walt, hell it could Vincent for all i know, that would be sad.

There was a mention about the boat "not moving" i dont think this was meant as the boat drifting but that it is under the time/space distortions caused by the island. Brings up the question why Ben wants the ship disabled. Ok knock out the comms so they cant contact Widmore but surely he'd want it away from the island. If Michael is working for Ben and says not to trust the captain why should we therefore trust Michael hence maybe the Captain is a good guy after all.

Mac mentioned Jin jumping around timelines, i think people were experimenting with the islands abilities by trying to precisely send objects to other points in time. There is a Dharma video on youtube containing numbered rabbits like in episode 6 when Ben asks Locke if the rabbit he killed had a number on it. I think depending on you proximaty to the island how you enter and leave the island and other factors result in varyng affects eg displaced consciousness (desmond), scitzophenia (comms officer, guys in Hurleys mental institute). There also seems to be a regular theme of people blowing their heads off eg hurleys friend from australia, guy in hatch b4 Desmond turned up and now bloody stain on in cabin.
For all we know that ship could be the same one the nutters in the mental hospital were on but proximatey to the island has caused a temporal rift so the past is the present and the guy tat blew his head off in australia that hurley was looking for is on the boat now and will be introduced this season and the Oceanic 6 get back to mainland b4 the plane is declared missing hence the big hoo-har.

I do like someones idea that Walt went back in time on that heading that Ben gave him. It certainly explains the ageing of Walt and goes someway to explaining walt's powers from season one. If Walt did go back in time then at some point there were two of him somewhere ie. season one. Maybe there is two of Locke as well (jacob) and that explains why Walt and Locke both have a strange connection with the island.

Reading Berkyo's comment maybe smokey is killing people on the island because their bodies were being recovered back in the real world and they couldnt cover it up without them. It does seem unlikely that positive ID's could be made of all the passengers that far down. Theres no way they'd be able to get the whole plane back up from that far down so maybe a few KEY bodies were filmed with their features in tact i.e. Boon, Eko, Shannon to keep up the pretence.
I like Megs idea of Sayid and ben being a flashback. Perfect way to take out Widmore and others. Send your consciousness back through time kick some ass and return when your done just make sure youve got a constant. Only thing is Ben and Sayid seemed to be trying to find out who the 'Economist' is which makes me wonder if they are referring to Whidmore as it seems to be common knowledge that he's behind it all. Unless of course Ben and Sayid consciousness travel back in time and hence forget who he is because of this but still know what must be accomplished.

#483. Posted by: thomas hicks at March 17, 2008 11:21 PM

Hey you all everybody! Guess what I saw in Hallmark tonight...the dragon that the shopkeeper tried to sell Jin. I'm almost positive it's the same critter—I checked out a screen capture of the scene in the toy shop & an image of the dragon (it's from the Melissa & Doug line, & manufactured in—of course—China). I sure wasn't expecting to see a LOST prop while buying Easter cards...

...which is actually a nice lead-in to something I've been thinking about. We've been having a spirited debate here about whether the LOST crew is incredibly picky w/their props, costumes, etc., or incredibly sloppy. I think a case can be made for both. The crew is very particular when planting clues, but can be very sloppy when simply putting together a background. The bloopers/continuity errors list is like Santa's—at this point it's a scroll that unrolls across the floor for many feet. The trick for us as obsessive viewers is figuring out what's a clue & what's an error.

And I just have to say that, having poked around a few other LOST-related sites while our beloved Filmfodder site was unavailable, this site is by far the best LOST site, w/the most articulate, passionate, & intelligent posters. We've got haiku artists, song composers, family portrait painters, in-depth review & analysis reporters, & quipsters; we post from around the world & in several languages; we have sober posters & inebriated posters (you know who you are!); we have grammar police to keep us all in line (crack that whip! & quick, ID that pop cultural reference); & we all play nicely in mac's sandbox, which he's kind enough to share w/us. And dare I say that each week we scarf it all up...or will that set off panda-monium in Mr. Naysayer's mind?

#484. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 17, 2008 11:43 PM

How shall I begin?

Well, chillin’ to “Thievery Corporation, The Mirror Conspiracy” to put me in the mood as I write this ...

Let me start with what is and is not canon ...

According to Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof (see GatorGal/409 ref from "The Economist" found at tinyurl*com/3dy9u3), canon is defined by the following comments:

(1) The only true canon is the show itself
(2) The mobisodes are in canon
(3) The Orchid video is in canon
(4) The videogame is not in canon
(5) It's unfair for the audience to go to ancillary sources in order to really understand the show.
(6) I'll sign off on this idea: The Christiane 1, which in the show was responsible for finding Oceanic 815, was in fact looking for the Black Rock

According to “Lostpedia” (which I know many of you take as gospel):

“The following contain varying degrees of canon, according to the writers ...

ABC's Official Lost page (among others)”

There was also an interview (which I cannot seem to find ... someone help me!) where the producers draw a very strict line between canon and “promotional content” (i.e., anything in commercials and other “official” ABC media), as simply in the interest of drawing in viewers ... (I swear I remember reading this, and have spent a good deal of time trying to track it down, but cannot find it ... by my own “rules” I will not hold this as “truth” in my argument, but if memory serves me right, it is out there ... if someone can help me locate this, I will be forever grateful).

I know that “Lostpedia” itself is not canon, and I will not rely on info there to support my opinion, but only present this (in lack of the quote I’ve been searching for) as hearsay.

Regardless, the producers do NOT mention the ABC site in their interview as canon, one way or the other, which is good enough for me to exclude it on the basis of lack of inclusion.

Well, killed a good deal of time looking for that quote (my Google skills must be severely lacking) ...

now listening to “Yeasayer, All Hour Cymbals” ...

Okay, so let me get to the meat of the argument against me, before giving my "revelations" ...

Went through this blog and identified all arguments in support of the “Jin’s scenes are 2000 FB’s” and came up with the following (through posts 471) ...

Reasons why Jin’s “flash” scenes are flash-backs (with minimal number of personal refs listed ... probably missed a few):

(1) the “year of the dragon” comment [17]
(2) the “old” cell phone [9]
(3) Jin married two months before [7]
(4) Jin’s headstone [either indicating dead or off-island] [6]
(5) Jin’s “old” attitude [5]
(6) Jin not with Sun at birth [3]
(7) Jin looks younger [3]
(8) ABC web site [2]
(9) Jin gave his name [1]

Let me address these in order of popularity ...

(1) Let me quote from canon (i.e., the ep) ... “What about this ... In the year of the dragon, it brings good luck.” Note the clerk doesn’t say something like, “this being the year of the dragon, it would bring luck to a newborn” or any other statement that “this IS the year of the dragon.” Now, the proponents of this theory (that it is in fact, between 05Feb2000 and 24Jan2001 [the most recent year of the dragon] in Jin’s scenes), support their theory based on supplementary evidence, most notably #2 and #3 above. NO! Please try to understand ... a supposition must stand on its own, not based upon supplementary evidence from other unconfirmed sources.

As other information will show, almost everyone has misinterpreted this comment. The producers said they would not “trick” the audience ... “tricking” us, in my mind, is bringing Charlie back to life via last-second time travel ... not giving us obscure, superfluous, background info that viewers have incorrectly interpreted. I side with the producers on this one.

Now moving on to “Bloc Party, Silent Alarm”

(2) Let me quote from the blog ... “The cell phone was a prop meant to be seen by the viewers [DW/362].” And so many of you agreed ... the phone was “obviously” a hint to Jin’s flash-back, right? Wrong! The phone is a Motorola i605, officially introduced May, 2005. How about “Jin's phone was circa 2000 [theoldred/39]” NO! You all assumed it was an old phone (and in fairness, I did as well), because it looked “Mulderesque,” primarily based upon your assumption that #1 above was correct! Your objectivity was skewed, based upon the circular logic fallacy. I will not swear however, as a few have suggested here, that new phones appear in Japan a few months before doing so in America, meaning this phone could “possibly” have been in the far east before May 2005 (unconfirmed).

(3) This is FIRST blow-your-mind bit of info (please read on) ... Sun was born on 20 March 1980 ... she went to Korean secondary school (essentially the same as the US, graduate high school at nominal age of 18), and went on to university. How do I know this? Because it’s canon: from “... And Found” - #205:

Mrs. Paik: “And after four years of college, you're ‘silver’. Don't you want to find a husband before you turn ‘bronze’?”

That would’ve put her at approximately age 22 (year mid-2002 earliest, most likely 2003) when (in the scene) she is being prepared to meet Jae Lee, the husband her parents (i.e., father) have selected for her. Okay, was she Doogie Howser? Don’t answer, I’ll answer for you later ... the answer is NO. She did not meet Jin until after dating Jae for some time, 2002 at the earliest! And we know (canon) that Jin did not work for Mr. Paik until after he was married to Sun ...

SO there’s no way the “supposed FB” scene took place in 2000/2001 ... Jin and Sun had not even met yet then! If (big if ... more to come, and explanation) Jin’s scene was a flashback to before the flight; it “possibly” happened in 2004, NOT 2000.

(4) Jin’s headstone means nothing, other than that people on the outside world think he’s dead. We already know (canon) that the O6 have lied about who survived the crash; whether Sun thinks Jin is alive or not is immaterial. In fact, we have already seen demonstration of her self-serving manifesto (see “The Glass Ballerina”), and have no reason to believe she didn’t screw Jin on the way off the island. For those who seek far and wide for motivation for Jin not being at Sun’s side when she gives birth, consider this: Jin knows he was considered infertile before arriving at the island, Sun is pregnant, and suppose (here I go speculating again) Sun ditched Jin on the flight out in the place of Sayid (in order to save her baby)... might you not think Jin would be a bit pissed about such a turn of events? Maybe Ben convinced Jin that Sayid is Sun’s baby’s father (based upon Ben’s probable knowledge of Jin’s “infertility”), and turned him against her? Maybe promised him the opportunity to get back at them both in the real world? Just saying, I can (okay, while not quite as emotionally evocative) provide a compelling(?) conclusion to this (potential) scenario, just from sitting here for a few minutes thinking about a reason Jin could be alive, off-island, and not with Sun. Do you not think that if Sun rejected Jin in such a way, he would not be a bitter, heart-broken, shell of the man he was?

(5) See #4 above ... if (and I know this is not canon, just throwing ideas out there) such a thing happened, would he not be even MORE hardened than he was before? Note this ... he never killed a man for Mr. Paik before leaving the island, and indeed felt badly about beating up the people he did ... suddenly he’s shouting death threats to the dude who took his panda? I’m sorry, but that does not equate to “pre-island” Jin ... that equates to post-island, effed over and mad-as-hell-at-the-world Jin. Again, no canon to support either view here, just an opinion (and as we know, opinions are just like ...). NOT basing my theory on either my responses to #4 or #5 though, by the way! (cause they’re not fact ... just speculating)

(6) See above. We have no reason to assume that Jin would WANT to be with Sun at her birth, if Ben fed him a bunch of propaganda (especially if she screwed him when leaving the island). Just saying, there is no canonical evidence to prove or disprove Jin’s wanting/ability to be present at the birth of Sun’s baby. Based upon my previous analysis of the hospital entrance scenes, I “believe” (note ... do note “know” or claim to know) that Jin and Sun are at the same hospital at the same time. I “think” (again, no canon here) that in a future ep we will see the hospital entrance again, ala the downing of flight 815 from different perspectives in Bensylvania, and we will see Sun come in the door from the ambulance, followed shortly thereafter by Jin through the same door, headed to a different room. JUST MY THEORY ... Don't abandon me yet out of disgust, I haven’t gotten to the "good" stuff yet.

Moving on to something old yet near and dear to my heart, “Supertramp, Crime of the Century” ...

(7) Oh come on ... Jin looks the same. Again, just your minds working overtime based upon previous suppositions. No more needs to be said (watch again if you must to convince yourselves ... just slightly different hair style).

(8) I mentioned “what is canon” at the beginning for a reason ... Again, I will not SWEAR the Jin scenes are not FB (for reasons yet to come), but still think not. I think this is a classic case of “promotional” truth, versus canon. Yet, in my gut, I still have the (distant) fear the ABC site is correct ... if so, then screw the producers/writers, because they have violated every principle they said they weren’t. I choose to believe otherwise, and at least one of my pending theories is correct ...

(9) To the best of my knowledge, only iloveben... (sorry just can’t bring myself to write out your whole handle, even as I type very many more characters ... good call though) suggested this ... this is the ONLY objection I cannot come up with a good retort to. This IS the strongest evidence to suggest that Jin’s scenes were FB, and not FF. Which would lead us to a pre-flight FB, 2004, for reasons I’m about to suggest (and I don’t discount this out of hand, as I DO the 2000 suggestions).

Phew, that was difficult, wasn’t it? Okay, now on to my REAL surprise (maybe) ...

When Jin was beating up the dude (Mr. Han) that Mr. Paik wanted to “deliver a simple message” to (“In Translation” #117), on the TV in the background was a story about Hurley winning the lottery!

Now, remember that Jin was in service to Mr. Paik for one year after his marriage to Sun (“House of the Rising Sun” #106), due to Mr. Paik’s taking care of Jin’s prostitute mom via Sun’s payoff (unbeknownst to Jin ... yet another angle Ben can use against him later, but I digress). Yet, Jin lied to Sun about the time required in subservience to her dad, leading her into the arms of her arranged-marriage beau, Jae Soo. Eventually, Mr. Paik ordered Jin to off Jae Soo (which he didn’t, consistent with my #5 comment above) to avoid family shame (does Mr. Paik eventually hold this over his head? ... hmm).

Okay, I digress a bit, but the important point is that Jin beat the crap out of Mr. Han at the same time Hurley won the lottery, which was within months of the Jin/Sun marriage. Also note from #3 above that was at the very earliest late 2002, more likely 2003 or 2004. How long did it take Jin and Sun to fall in love, convince Mr. Paik to agree to their marriage, and then get married? I suggest it was about one year (maybe slightly more ... reasonable?).

Now let’s move on to Hurley ... his story is pretty simple. His dad ditched him at about the age of ten, and came back 17 years later, after he won the lottery, just before he got on the plane to Australia (“Tricia Tanaka Is Dead” #310). We know (canon) he wanted to buy the “Cluck’s” chicken shack soon after winning, and did so. It was after fixing it up, and about to reopen with his old boss as his new employee manager, that the “meteor” incident occurred (killing Tricia Tanaka), and VERY soon thereafter he decided to venture to Australia to find the secret of the numbers (which he now was convinced were somehow cursed).

How much time elapsed between Hurley winning the lottery, and him going to Australia? Not very much (and I know this not canon, but simple common sense) ... within a year.

This is consistent with Jin’s “one year” owed to Mr. Paik, and his seeing Hurley winning the lottery during one of his early “hits,” that he was so disgusted to tell Sun about.

I know you can argue with me that my “common sense” argument is crap, but you can’t argue with Jin’s “one year” obligation to Mr. Paik ... that is canon.

THEREFORE, Jin and Sun were married during the one-year period prior to the Flight 815 departure ... maybe late 2003, but more likely 2004, when Hurley hit the lotto (at least six months prior to Sept 2004 [based on Sun’s irritation with Jin still working for her dad beyond his promised six-month-after-wedding honeymoon], but not more than a year before that date).

Getting there ...

Time for “Elliott Smith, XO” ... fits my mood ...

Note I haven’t even brought up the Toyota Matrix until now? Not necessary, just additional proof of the pudding ... the problem with the Matrix is that it’s not easily differentiated until the 2006 model. So, I can say there were no post-2005 cars in Jin’s scene ... what does that mean? It means it was either a FB to 2004, two months after he married Sun (which I do not discount), or (more likely) a flash to the same time in 2005 when Sun was giving birth. I base my “most likely” comment on the (as mentioned here in the blog earlier, “obvious” placement of the phone, which was post-2004, mid-2005 at the “most likely [but will not swear to]” when ... gee, Sun would’ve been due if impregnated by Jin on the island).

What does all this mean in summary? Let me tell ya ...

(1) The “year of the dragon” spiel was just a salesman trying to move product ... had nothing to do with anything, other than to confuse the audience (but did NOT violate the producers’ rules!). There is no way in hell that Jin’s FB/FF took place in either 2000/2001 ... must have been either 2004 or 2005, either just before, or just after, the crash (I will not declare absolutely either case is correct).

(2) I cannot “prove” my point other than by referencing the “canonical” evidence I have provided ... however, I HOPE everyone that has heretofore thought I’m full of crap thinks otherwise, and realize that you cannot “prove” your theory about Jin’s FB as well.

A theory cannot be proven until adequate evidence is provided to either prove or disprove it, and neither is currently the case. It is, as my “Kobayashi Maru” reference suggests, a no-win situation ... I only hope you agree enough to let me skate out of the neutral zone alive ...

#485. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 12:08 AM

@472 clementine
I don't think Dave ever existed...the Doc proved it to Hurley with a POLAR-oid. I also don't think we have seen the last of Naomi. If the next episode is about Kevin Johnson, it will probably be like "the other 48 days". Meaning We should see Naomi on the freighter as well as Brandon, I don't think Walt is on there though.

@476 sandivon
I thought the same thing. Maybe Hurley wanted to ask Sun if she had seen Jin(if he is in fact dead like Charlie).

I have noticed, by reading mosts of the post, It seems like the biggest issue from last week is between FF and FB. I will not touch that subject. How about the fake wreckage? What if, as there were rabbits, there were 2 planes? is that too far-fetched?
@471 boozy

@ ilovebenjaminlinusxx
Im new here, how do i get on this list? Is it a list from Jacob or a list from MS Clue?

#486. Posted by: lost4ever at March 18, 2008 1:31 AM

No one has responded to my post yet ... I take that to mean you are all aghast in awe at my brillince, and simply unable to speak ... or maybe bored by it ... or maybe skipped over it because it's long ... or maybe in bed ... or maybe disgusted by my egregiuos self-imposed grandiosity ...

or maybe, I'm the only one up at this hour getting drunk and listening to Buena Vista Social Club, dancing by myself, because I cannot sleep, cannot eat, and cannot stop smoking & drinking, because I cannot stop myself from thinking about how my love died miserably last year about this time ...

Those of you who do not understand Sun's misery at Jin's headstone ... consider yourselves lucky ... it's a hell I would not wish upon anyone ... except the bastard who did this, and he deserves much MUCH worse.

#487. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 2:25 AM

@ ealgumby –
I haven’t made up my mind one way or the other and found your argument very interesting. However, I do feel compelled to point out that at least one piece of your canonical evidence is wrong.
“For those who seek far and wide for motivation for Jin not being at Sun’s side when she gives birth, consider this: Jin knows he was considered infertile before arriving at the island, Sun is pregnant, and suppose (here I go speculating again) Sun ditched Jin on the flight out in the place of Sayid (in order to save her baby)... might you not think Jin would be a bit pissed about such a turn of events?”
I don’t know the name of the episode, but it is the one in which Jin and Sun find out that they cannot have children. The Dr. tells the couple that it is Sun who cannot reproduce. He only tells Sun that it is actually Jin who is infertile and is afraid Jin would kill him if he told the truth. Jin doesn’t know he is infertile, as far as we know.

Namaste….Scarf

#488. Posted by: Not an Other at March 18, 2008 2:41 AM

@Not an Other/488

No, Sun told Jin this in "The Whole Truth" #216, when she lets him know she is pregnant, and Jin thinks it is an island-induced miracle ... yet another screw I think Ben can turn against him later ...

#489. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 2:57 AM

BTW ... that portion of my oral diarrhea was not canon .. that was just theory thrown in, cause there was no canon to interject with regard to those points. My main points:

(1) Hurley won the lotto shortly after Sun/Jin married
(2) This was within one year of 815 flight
(3) This was probably 2004
(4) The "year of the dragon" crap was crap
(5) Maybe Jin FB'ed to 2004, but given the new-found chronological consistency with set-pieces (NO sloppy props!), he probably FF'ed to mid-2005, the same time she was giving birth

Guess I coulda saved a lot of blog space if I'd just left it at that, eh?

#490. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 3:05 AM

@ ealgumby -

Of course, you're right. Sorry. My mind remembers what it wants to, especially at this hour. Anyway, I liked the lengthy post. It seemed sort of stream of consciousness. I felt like you were trying to win me over. And who doesn't like that? Seems like we're the night owls.

Namaste....Scarf

#491. Posted by: Not an Other at March 18, 2008 3:24 AM

I guess that night owl remark is assuming you're in the states. Anyway...Good talk Russ!

Namaste

#492. Posted by: Not an Other at March 18, 2008 3:25 AM

@ Clementine – 472

I appreciate the dedication of your very rational post. I absolutely agree with your theory about Smokey. Old Smokey is running things on this island.

@Alais_Longthought – 484

I also looked for other Lost blogs during our website problems. I have to agree that this is by far the best site. Hats off to Mac and all our loyal bloggers!

#493. Posted by: DW at March 18, 2008 7:24 AM

@ealgumby (485) - Great post. One thing to add, about Jin's headstone and the cemetery scene. Sun's reaction at the cemetery strongly indicates that she thinks he's dead. Given how famous the Oceanic 6 would be and the date on the headstone, one has to presume the public thinks he's dead too (and, given the date, that he died on the flight). In that case it would be hard to imagine Jin walking around in a FF in the same time period as Sun without someone noticing him.

That doesn't indicate whether he's really dead or not, but it does point to his scenes being FB.

#494. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 18, 2008 9:18 AM

RANDOM OBSERVATIONS:

@@@@@@@@@@@@

I'm leaning towards the theory that Jin isn't dead, and that Sun & Hurley had to make it look like they are really grieving by going through the motions. He is still on the island with a bunch of the other Losties... being that they don't know how to get back, or do not have the resources to get back, they are now separated and that is what she is really sad about.

@@@@@@@@@@@

Kate's Aaron is Claire's Aaron... no doubt.

@@@@@@@@@@@

When it comes down to it, Ben is a good guy - but a nonconventional "good guy." He cares only about the Island and will do whatever it takes to keep the integrity of Island in tact. He is a good guy/hero to the Island, but a miserable sinister prick to everyone else. I'm gonna say that his feelings and actions are an evolution sparked by something to do with Annie (as well as the Daddy-issues thing)

@@@@@@@@@@@

Christian Shepard's body/corpse wasn't in the casket... it will show up again somehow - alive - zombie-ish? - by Smokie taking its form? - stuffed and sitting in a rocking chair like Mother Bates in Psycho? The possibilities are endless...!

@@@@@@@@@@@

Hurley's episodes are my favorites. They usually contain some good supernatural aspects and bits of comic relief... hopefully, we'll see another soon.

@@@@@@@@@@@

Adam & Eve (the skeletons in the cave) are probably two people we already know... but they went the way of the Tunisian Polar Bear... Desmond and Penny? Jack and Kate? Claire and Charlie? Ben and Annie?

@@@@@@@@@@@

Why is every food, beer, wine, etc DHARMA brand but Apollo Candy Bars aren't? What is the origination of the Apollo company? Is it a Hershey-Hanso collaboration?

@@@@@@@@@@@

I wonder after the Lost entire story is over and the television show is complete, if they'll be a LOST big screen movie like the X-files, etc... how great would that be? LOST nerds everywhere will have to emerge from their parent's basements and seek refuge in area movie theaters to get their fix!

@@@@@@@@@@@

Widmore buying the Black Rock's journal.. very interesting storyline. Looking forward to seeing that story evolve.

@@@@@@@@@@@

Not happy about Michael being the Man on the Boat if indeed, he is the actual MOTB... hopefully he goes the way of Ecko (who I liked) but with a more brutal killing... maybe he gets his head torn off by Smokie while he's screaming for Walt.

@@@@@@@@@@@

Did we ever really have a conclusion to the storyline behind Jack's tattoos? I feel like we really didn't get the whole story...?

@@@@@@@@@@@

Let me live up to my naysay moniker by stating that the Juliet episode and Kate episode from this season were both pretty weak. Especially the ending to Juliet's episode with the Austen Powers-like "System Failure" countdown... corny!

@@@@@@@@@@@

If you get the chance, take a look at the "Lost Auditions" on YouTube. Interesting to see the main characters trying out for their roles...

@@@@@@@@@@@

"THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN" is the best episode of the series so far... and I too, have gone and re-watched every episode from the beginning... if you are new to LOST or just coming aboard, I recommend you watch that episode.

@@@@@@@@@@@@

ROSE & BERNARD = NIKKI & PAULO... the spiders should'a bit them, too.

@@@@@@@@@@@@

Am I the only one who noticed that Locke's father and Locke are about the same age?

@@@@@@@@@@@@

Do you think that the 4-toed statue is covered in HurleyBird crap?

@@@@@@@@@@@@

Why does every actor who gets arrested for a DUI in real life have their character killed off on the fictional island? Would that then mean if Hurley drives the Dharma van after drinking too many Dharma beers and gets pulled over by an Dharma cop, would Jorge Garcia die in real life?

@@@@@@@@@@@@

Since Locke worked on a weed farm, can we assume that he has a crop growing on the Island? Maybe SMOKIE is just a massive BONG HIT!?!?!?!

@@@@@@@@@@@

That's all I got for now... maybe I should do some work...


#495. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 18, 2008 9:56 AM

@462 ilovebenjaminlinusxx said

>I say we need a new family portrait.

>Everyone in favor say, "I"
>Everyone opposed say, "Ne!"

First, you must bring me a shrubbery.

#496. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 18, 2008 10:36 AM

@472 Clementine stated:

>We have apparitions of people - we don’t know if they’re dead:

>Locke’s mother...

Wait, wait, have I missed something? Where, except in a flashback where she was obviously living, (having looked Locke up duling hs Toy Store gig) have we seen Locke's mother? On island?

#497. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 18, 2008 10:43 AM

@ shikotee/#467: You forgot...

TWWIIIIIIIIIIIIIXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
-George Kostanza, candy line-up ep

@ Mr_Naysayer/#495: Bong hits are pretty much great. And that's all I'VE got.

#498. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 18, 2008 10:47 AM

Ealgumby:

While your post was rather compelling (other than your speculatory point #4, which I just can't get behind at all), I still say (regardless of any and all contradictory evidence) that Jin's part was a flashback, plain and simple.

As perfect as they try to be, the show does make mistakes. If the timeline for this flashback doesn't work based on your analysis, then it's just an error in the production of the show. And that just happens sometimes, as much as we don't want it to on a show like Lost. (Screw the producers? Nah...they just need a slap on the hand for this.)

The big 'twist' at the end was that Jin's part was a flashback. That's all we're meant to believe. Hurley and Sun going to the cemetery afterward just confirmed it. And I'm in the camp that thinks Jin is actually dead. (Sun wouldn't have acted that way otherwise, and really and truly they wouldn't have gone to his grave if he wasn't really dead. You wouldn't go to a cemetery to 'talk' to someone you weren't sure was dead or just MISSED. You just wouldn't.)

After all, if they can do a court scene with so many mistakes (Kate tried for all her crimes in CA, defense going before prosecution, etc. etc...), then it's not out of the realm of possibility that a flashback story might contain some minor timeline errors. But they don't damage the overall story, in my humble opinion. (Though I think you'll disagree with that last statement!)

My guess is that when Jin's story is truly revealed to be a flashback (like in a producer-Podcast), the flack Cuse & Lindeloff receive (a lot of the stuff you listed) will cause them to be a bit more careful with the details of flashbacks/forwards in the future...even if they are very crunched for time in shooting the eps.

So again, though your post had compelling evidence I don't think it stands up to the simple idea that the episode was a tricky FF/FB combo.

Can't wait to see who is right!!!!!

#499. Posted by: JoePike at March 18, 2008 10:55 AM

Without getting into the whole FF/FB debate in Sun & Jins’s story. There’s also been discussion over where is Jin? Alive/dead? On island/off island? Well, given Ben’s tendencies toward manipulating people by using their loved one’s as leverage, it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to believe that Ben granted Sun (and baby) safe passage off the island but only if they remain silent about the island & it’s where abouts. To guarantee their silence Jin must remain on the island as a “hostage” that Ben can threaten to kill if Sun should speak of what actually happened to flight 815. Can’t you just see old “bug eyes” getting in Jin’s face & saying something like, “You WILL remain on the island Jin or your wife & baby die here!”. And if you buy the whole blackmail theory, it might explain why Claire & Aaron got separated too

#500. Posted by: cookie at March 18, 2008 11:04 AM

@ Cecil Rose -

Here's hoping that ilbxx gets that reference. Along the same lines, perhaps the best defense against Smokey is to simply "run away, run away!!!!"

#501. Posted by: Not an Other at March 18, 2008 11:10 AM

@377/ shikotee
[...Sayid says "The day I start trusting him is the day that I would have sold my soul".
...Of course, this dialogue is ironic considering we know Sayid will be killing for Ben in the future, and that Elsa will turn out to be a baddie. The irony is even deeper considering we know that Ben lies considerably, that he manipulates people considerably, and that he can not be trusted. He knows how to get to Sayid.
...Sayid "You used that to recruit me into killing for you. "
Ben "Do you want to protect your friends or not Sayid?...
...Poor Sayid - as smart as he is, as a character, his emotions always betray him, and thus, he is easily manipulated by Ben. I included the non ff scene because I think it is very important - it establishes that Ben figures out the best way to get to Sayid. ... push Sayid to "sell his soul".]

Disagree with your conclusion. As you correctly rehash - 'Ben manipulates'. Sayid does not sell his soul because he does NOT trust Ben. Sayid is clearly 'trapped' in the situation (yet to be revealed) of 'working' for Ben.

#502. Posted by: JT at March 18, 2008 11:26 AM

@501. Posted by: Not an Other

re: Runaway from Smokey

Lol...

Now you're making me think that it is "The Legendary Black Beast of Aaargh" (a la Monty Python and the Holy Grail).

#503. Posted by: shikotee at March 18, 2008 11:28 AM

(Tired of the Aaron discussion? Then skip this one. I'm not tired of it, so here goes!)

→ 456. AC
"How can Aaron be one of the Oceanic Six? He wasn't a passenger. He wasn't on the manifest. He doesn't have a passport therefore there would have been no record of him "boarding" the plane. I refuse to believe he is one of the Oceanic Six."

How can Turnip-Head be one of the 6? Very simple. Though he wasn't a 'passenger', wasn't on the manifest, and didn't have a passport...he WAS still on the plane. (And as someone mentioned, the airline notes preggo-passengers, so it most likely IS a known fact that Claire was pregnant.)

So, quite simply, since Aaron was on the plane, and did crash on the island, and was (speculatatively) rescued with Kate, he could be one of the 6. That's how.

If Aaron was rescued with Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, and Sun, then he IS one of the Oceanic 6. If he made it off the island some other way...then no, he won't be considered a Sixer. But since he's with Kate now, I fully believe he was rescued with her and is recognized as one of the 6.

I repeat (AD NAUSEUM!) that it doesn't matter that he wasn't born yet when he was on the plane. He was still on the plane that crashed. And now that he is off the island, he (most likely) was rescued with the others. So would be considered one of the 6 who survived the whole ordeal.

You will believe soon...YOU WILL BELIEVE!

(And I will still eat my choco-hat if you're right. I might even take a bite of my real hat...lots of fiber.)

And I loved this one- put so eloquently by Crispy in post # 452:

"Aaron is one of the six. The writers were being coy and not answering whether he was or was not because they wanted everyone to think that Jin and Sun made it off the island. Seeing that Jin did not get off the island means that Aaron is the sixth. We know all six now."

Thanks Bruthuh.

#504. Posted by: JoePike at March 18, 2008 11:47 AM

@@@@@@@@@@@
POST 495 & 498

Hey Red...Neck...Man!

Is it safe too assume (or is it "canon") that SMOKIE IS INDEED AN ESCAPED, DISGRUNTLED BONG HIT !?!?!

(I'd rather beat this joke to death rather than anymore lame scarf or panda jokes!!! Have at it boys and girls!!! haha)

#505. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 18, 2008 11:53 AM

Easy on the bong references boys...we're trying to keep ilovebenjixx sweet and innocent!

#506. Posted by: JoePike at March 18, 2008 12:00 PM

@485: ealgumby - very thorough analysis of the Jin & Sun time line. Has anyone ever established the Korean couple's wedding date? I believe they must've been married for at least 18 months and likely even longer prior to flying Oceanic 815.

In Season 1 - House of the Rising Sun, Jin gets permission to marry Sun from Mr. Paik by agreeing to work for him. He says "After a year of management training, and a year of work at the factory, we'll have all the money we need."

There is a flashback to their wedding reception in Season 1's "In Translation". Jin tells Sun that their honeymoon must be postponed because he has 6 more months of management training.

***
This means Jin and Sun married 6 months after he began to work for Paik's company
***

It is not clear how much time elapses between their wedding and the day Jin gets promoted and asked to deliver his first message. When Mr Paik gives Sun the payoff cash he says Jin " will no longer be a floor manager. He will be working for me." When Paik calls Jin to tell him about the "promotion" Jin starts out by apologizing for a machine glitch at the factory. This suggests that he's done with his year of management training which began 6 months before the wedding.

*** FACT
Jin and Sun are married at least 6 months before Jin starts sending messages for Paik
***


In Season 2 - The Whole Truth, Jin suggests that they see a fertility specialist because "we've been trying for a year." The episode doesn't specify when they began trying - even if it was from the day they were married, then this scene happens after their 1st anniversary

*** FACT
Jin and Sun are married at least a year before seeing a fertility specialist
***


Here is where I stray from canon and speculate by applying reasonable assumptions to known facts

Assumption 1 - Sun and Jin were married at least a year before Sun made up her mind to leave Jin.

Sun's reasons for wanting to leave Jin stemmed from the way their relationship changed after he began doing her father's dirty work. Earlier clues place this at least 6 months into their marriage. Pure speculation, but even if their happy marriage headed south from that moment on, it would still take some amount of time - possibly another year - before Sun gets so fed up that she even starts to plan her exit strategy.

This was even implied in that scene where Jin is washing blood from his hands and Sun slaps him. Notice that the puppy Jin gave her after delivering his first "message" is now fully grown. That takes about a year.

Also, Sun's reason for learning English stems from her desire to leave Jin, so she wouldn't even begin taking lessons until she had at least began to consider leaving Jin. Jae said Sun was "fluent for over a month" in the scene right after she and Jin saw the fertility doc. Adding to that month the amount of time it takes to become fluent in English, and the fact that she probably started her lessons after she already considered leaving Jin .. this makes it more than likely they were married at least two years before flight 815.

Assumption 2 : Jin and Sun probably did not start trying to get pregnant right away. If Jin is so committed to making an impression on his job that he postpones his honeymoon at least 6 months, I hardly believe he would be trying to start a family immediately. In his most recent (and most controversial) "off-Island" story, Jin seemed in no hurry to reproduce at two months into his marriage.

Jin also tells Sun in Season 2 that he viewed having a baby as a means to get Sun's father to lighten up on his assignments, so I'm guessing that their year of trying to conceive begins some time after Jin was sending messages for Mr. Paik.

Assumption 3 - Sun's affair with Jae occurs between her trip to the fertility doctor with Jin and her learning that it was Jin, rather than her, who was sterile. I think it's no accident that the scene where Sun tells Jae she's leaving Jin falls between those two events. It creates opportunity for the affair at a time where Sun thinks she can't get pregnant. Otherwise, Sun impresses me as someone who would not put herself at such risk. Since Sun questioned that Jae could be the father, then this event must have happened within two months of flight 815. Any longer than that, she probably would've taken a pregnancy test before leaving Korea.

IN SUMMARY : I stand by the fact that Jin's story was a FB to the time two months after he was married. I do not believe there is enough evidence to date his flashback any more than two years prior to flight 815. ealgumby and others make excellent points about not drawing conclusions from the "Year of the Dragon" remark. This was something a dishonest panda-stealing price-gouging shopkeeper said to a customer - definitely not canon.

My guess - Jin's story was definitely a flashback and occurred some time in 2002.

#507. Posted by: vacc at March 18, 2008 12:05 PM

@502. Posted by: JT

You will note that I put "sell his soul" in quotations. I could have paraphrased this another way, but stuck with the original because it's meaning differs immensely - depending on what on your background or your belief system.

My interpretation is very liberal - he walks and talks with the devil, thus he is in league with the devil, and thus in some way, he has sold his soul. This does not mean Sayid is "bad" (no such thing). In fact, Sayid killing for Ben is immensely consistent with his character's background - from island events and from flashbacks.

As we know, Sayid has a checkered past, and he has done some truly horrible things while following his belief system, and very often, he lives to regret some of his decisions, which is why many of us like him.

As such, he makes a great anti-hero, which is much more realistic in the real world.

While the island survivors respect Sayid and likely consider him a friend, there still is that feeling of "yikes".

The best example of this is an episode from this season (I forget which one). It might be Eggtown, where Hurley is used as bait to capture Sayid. While walking, Hurley keeps his distance from Sayid, and mentions that he saw how a tied up Sayid killed one of the Others with his feet (this happened in "Through the Looking Glass"). It may have come across as black humour - but for many people humour is the best way to address serious concerns.

Rounding things off - whether Sayid trusts/distrusts Ben, it doesn't change the fact that he is doing some horrible things, even if his intentions are "good". As mentioned - Ben is aware that his weakness are his feelings for women and friends, and as such, he will exploit this, and thus seduce Sayid to somewhat "sell his soul".

But who knows - maybe the devil (Ben) will turn out to not be the worst of all evils out there - we'll only find this out once we have a better idea of what this island truly is, and what are the true motivations of the outer island forces (freighter, Widmore, etc). Who knows - maybe Ben and the Others really are the "good guys" they have previously claimed to be!

#508. Posted by: shikotee at March 18, 2008 12:25 PM

ealgumby is a GENIUS.
too bad I out-geniused you. (about Jin saying his name)

I'm honestly about to go on his side on this one.
He definitely put up a good fight.

JoePike, no matter how many times you say it, you KNOW that Aaron is not one of the six. You just find the need to stick by your opinion. But once again, you WILL eat your hat.

"Easy on the bong references boys...we're trying to keep ilovebenjixx sweet and innocent!"

Oh, and I am quite innocent apparently.
What do you mean by "bong references"?

@ Cecil Rose - 496
"First, you must bring me a shrubbery."
...I don't get it.

I'm in school right now. Photoshop class to be exact. Which is why I am on the computer, doing un-photoshop-ish things.

Ok I must depart. My teacher is coming.

#509. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 18, 2008 12:25 PM

Here's the biggest reason why we should NOT infer that the "Year of the Dragon" remark is any indication of the date for the flashback : If you agree with my earlier post #28 that the Panda theft and subsequent Panda shortage was staged by the shopkeeper - then it should be clear to us that the store owner was NOT trying to sell Jin the dragon. He was keeping up the pretense that the last panda was on hold simply to drive up the price. Since many of us don't speak Korean, we may simply be reading the dialog without applying the intended inflection.

The shopkeeper says "What about this... In the year of the dragon, it brings good luck."

Try looking at that statement in the context of a dishonest merchant goading Jin into spending a fortune on a replacement panda. The store owner is taking the only redeeming feature of the dragon and presenting it in such a way that Jin clearly understands that it would be a complete embarrassment for him to give the dragon as a gift.

If anything, that scene proved to me that it is definitely NOT the year of the panda in Jin's story.

#510. Posted by: vacc at March 18, 2008 12:31 PM

TO ALL THAT WANT TO BE ON MY LIST:

The thought behind this list is evident yet still TOP SECRET.

Ok, I'll just tell.

If you do something or say something that BLOWS MY MIND (in a good way), and you have good insight, or just show me that you're smart and you know what you're talking about (in a BLOWING my mind kind of way), then you MAY, just MAY get on my list.

I consider most of the people on my list GENIUSES, the others... are only 3/4 of the way to genius.

Ealgumby was the winner today!

It's odd how I thought you were dumb a long time ago after you said something and I got really mad at you. So sorry about that. I didn't think you had a good backup, but you DEFINITELY proved to me otherwise.

GENIUS.

Class is almost over. BYEEEE!!!

#511. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 18, 2008 12:40 PM

Posted a second time for comments:

→ 210. Posted by: Len at March 14, 2008 2:44 PM

Is the freighter being drawn towards the island (magnetism)? When it was mentioned to Sayid that the engines had been sabotaged Sayid said something like, "then we aren't moving", and the reply went something like, "oh, aren't we?". Could this be the reason (being drawn closer to the island) for the "cabin fever"? Is Lapidis flying closer to the storm to judge the distance between the ship and the island? Has Michael destroyed the ships systems so that they will indeed enter the storm and therefore kill Widmore's crew (as Ben wishes will happen)?

#512. Posted by: Len at March 18, 2008 12:56 PM

@512 Len - I'm glad you reposted that because I missed it on my first read and I intended to make a similar comment on that myself.

It was the scene where Sayid and Desmond were being relocated to a quiet part of the ship, that Desmond chimed in that the "ship isn't moving" and their escort replied "if you say so."

I also thought that was HUGE. The fact that the saboteur did enough damage that Captain Gault could not move to a safe distance from the Island implies that it is Ben's desire to keep the freighter close to the Island.

Is it magnetism? Probably. Desmond described the sensation of being in a snow globe as he headed away from the Island and found himself always returning.

Is Ben drawing the freighter into position for it's destruction? Seems that way. The proximity to the Island is causing the Cabin Fever according to Gault.

At any rate, I do believe the freighter's presence was the reason that Ben goaded Locke into not pressing the button.

#513. Posted by: vacc at March 18, 2008 1:15 PM

509@ ilovebenjaminlinusxx

"Bong hits" are the sounds that you sometimes hear on the island - kind of like the "whoosh" sound when they go to a flashforward or flashback, or the sound that the HurleyBird makes - a natural, beautiful occurance... it is a sound that can be heard a lot in everyday life, too... its kinda like a gurggling sound - like the sound of a small river hitting against the shore or the sound of a beautiful outdoor stream as is bubbles past.

Am I describing it correctly, red...neck...man?!?

#514. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 18, 2008 1:18 PM

@485 ealgumby
Excellent research...you might have changed my mind, but I kept reading and read 507. I also lost someone close about a year ago. What do you do in the offseason? The nine month or so break beginning at the end of May. After this week the will only be 40 shows left anding in May of 2010.

@495 Mr Naysayer
I think the X-Files movie came out between years 4 and 5, (maybe 5 and 6). Unfortuenately they continued the series too long with the Terminator. Michael is due for an Ekko-like ending, I think that is why he is on the freighter.

@507,510 vacc
It must be 2002, I'm sure the shopowner was just trying to move old merchandise, what shopowner wouldn't

#515. Posted by: lost4ever at March 18, 2008 1:24 PM

If Michael is now Kevin Johnson, I wonder if Walt changes his name too. Maybe he changed it to Earvin (MAGIC) Johnson?

#516. Posted by: lost4ever at March 18, 2008 1:29 PM

@ 495. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer

GREAT POST!!! HAD ME CRACKING UP WHILE I AM SITTING HERE AT WORK...

AWESOME "OBSERVATIONS!"

#517. Posted by: JustplainLost at March 18, 2008 1:32 PM

Part one of a too long post

→ 448. Posted by: shikotee
Wow excellent analysis of ff's. thanx!

→ 449. Posted by: shikotee
"There is a belief that there still is some kind of an underground tunnel
network."

We know there are at least the cerebus vents. and if anyone's ever read any
whispers transcrpts, it seems like they're watching from some kinda underground place.

"and it could be that Aaron is not known by the public to have come from the
island. There simply isn't enough data as of yet to determine either or."

good point. hadn't thotta that. it could explain a lot.

"I looked at that quote, "I'm trying to be a little more nice now..."

really sorry about that. glad we got that cleared up. i'm beginning to
recognize and appreciate your style now. don't think it'll happen again =)

"Ummmmmm..... No comment!
Lol! - i totally went bezerko this week in the long post dept!"

hilarious! we think alike. except for this: "Lol - It is all Coolio and the gang!"

i guess i'm a dork, i didn't get it. would you mind explaining it to me so we
can both laugh? i'm not normally so unhip.

→ 451. Posted by: JoePike
i'm in the fb camp. it just makes more sense to me in the larger story arc.
but i'm thoroughly enjoying the debate and ealgumby really has done her work!
kudos to her for sticking to her convictions and providing a well thought out arguement.

→ 457. Posted by: cookie
"@MistyMistyMistyMistyMistyMistyMisty
You've got a real hair trigger on that mouse!"

*coffee explodes out of nose* i love those lol moments on this blog!

"On the island I think she only wore a simple wedding band & Jin being a fisherman's son probably couldn't afford anything more than that."

Nope she's always had that rock. point of pride, methinks, for said humble fisherman's son. and part of why he had to work for the evil mr. paik.

"That might explain why Hurley said "good""

i was confused by that too. i'm wondering if maybe they didn't want evil mr paik there? or the other O6's?

#518. Posted by: En Provence at March 18, 2008 1:42 PM

part two

→ 460. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx "That was me... I get it. =]"

thanx for fessing up. good for you for not getting offended and continuing to
post.

"This is a great community. I feel like we're all one big happy family!!!"

me too ;)

"How are keyboards in France?"

sucky! that is to say sucky for non-french people ;) let me count the ways: you have to hit shift to type numbers and the period; the q and a are reversed; as are the w and z; there's extra keys on the right side so it shifts everything over a bit...i could go on. on the plus side, they have the euro symbol. also you obviously can't type in french on an english keyboard.

I have 3 keyboards. an english one on my american laptop, a spare english one
and a french one for when i have to write something official in french.
eventually, i'll have to switch to all french, all the time--i just keep
putting it off. the learning curve is too steep right now.

how's that everyone for your totally off-topic cultural sensitivity lesson for the day?

"Get better!!!"

tryin'! thanx.

→ 484. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at
"we post from around the world & in several languages"

c'est vrai, c'est vrai ! couldn't resist, heehee.

→ 495. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer
i lol'd, loved and agreed w/ all of your comments except this:

"Let me live up to my naysay moniker by stating that the Juliet episode and
Kate episode from this season were both pretty weak."

i like the julliet centered epis mostly because she a MUCH better actress than
Lily. but also because her character is more multi-layered and interesting. she's a good counterpoint to ben, imo.

→ 500. Posted by: cookie
"Can’t you just see old “bug eyes” getting in Jin’s face & saying something
like, “You WILL remain on the island Jin or your wife & baby die here!”. And if
you buy the whole blackmail theory, it might explain why Claire & Aaron got
separated too"

excellent point! thanx for an interesting theory to chew on.

#519. Posted by: En Provence at March 18, 2008 1:46 PM

I agree with #186, that Jin & Claire die during the Oceanic 6's escape from the island and FURTHERMORE: I think Claire dies because of the device that she was implanted with, (think way back) (and that Ben used to make her sick at one point), will either be intentionally set-off or maybe it goes off automatically if she leaves the island.

#520. Posted by: Zman at March 18, 2008 1:55 PM

Somehow, sounds of bong hits and Holy Grail go together so beautifully. Perhaps you can't fully experience one without the other.

Namaste...Scarf

#521. Posted by: Not an Other at March 18, 2008 2:17 PM

@red...Neck...Man
@Mr. Naysayer

I will never have a another bong experience without thinking of you two gentleman. And for that I thank you.

#522. Posted by: SamFin at March 18, 2008 2:32 PM

@520 Zman "I think Claire dies because of the device that she was implanted with"

I actually thought the same about Sawyer. Remember when Ben convinced Sawyer that he implanted a pacemaker? C'mon, was that necessary to keep Sawyer from trying to escape? Obviously not, since all it took was a hike up the mountain to see they were on a different Island.

I always suspected that the real con Ben played on Sawyer was using the "fake surgery" as a means to implant a real device that will inevitably be used to control Sawyer in some way - or kill him.

#523. Posted by: vacc at March 18, 2008 2:37 PM

@ 514 Mr_Naysayer

The description you gave to ilovebenjaminlinusxx WAS ABSOLUTELY right on target. I often hear that wonderful sound...

#524. Posted by: Lost007 at March 18, 2008 2:41 PM

@ Mr_Naysayer: Duuuuuuude, I have no idea what's going on.....(giggity, giggity, giggity).

#525. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 18, 2008 2:55 PM

Is the illness the freighties are suffering the same as that which Rousseau's crew experienced?
Why are some people affected and others aren't? Captain Gault seems okay. Rousseau seems about as normal as possible for someone stuck on an island without deodorant for 17 years.

@ealgumby #487???

As for ealgumby's other posts: I love the time and energy placed into such a good argument. While I remain on Jin's story=FB I wouldn't be totally shocked if they threw us down the path that you have reasoned out. Can't wait to see.
With Lost one always has to be open to every possibility.

And shouldn't dublxx be Maggie Simpson (as long as we're going with the young jokes)? Guess I'm not getting on the list...

#526. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 18, 2008 3:12 PM

Towlie....is that you?

#527. Posted by: lost4ever at March 18, 2008 3:12 PM

@495 Mr_Naysayer - Last fall I depicted smokey as bong smoke as part of a LOST-Teletubbies parody in the "You All Every Butties" photo caption - the one with Driveshaft wearing diapers.

Glad to see this theory finally gaining momentum.

IWABH : It was a Bong Hit!

After all this talk I can't wait till 4:20 anymore -

(vacc inhales... waits.. nearly turns blue.. exhales... smiles)

#528. Posted by: vacc at March 18, 2008 3:20 PM

after reading over 500 comments, that could easily exceed 600 i think its safe to say:
1. there have been some pretty passionate arguments regarding jin's flashforward or flashback. i for one was on the flashback side but, after reading all the brilliant theories i'm not so sure. with that being said, i'll kindly be seated on the fence with this one and wait and see. hopefully we will hear from the producers regarding this matter once the season is over.

2. whether of not baby aaron is considered on of the oceanic 6. again, very stong arguments for yea and nay. i for one think he is but that depends on if the public has been made aware of his existence and so far that isnt known. i think we need to hear from the producers regarding this matter also.

love it, love it, love it......keep up the great job everyone :)

a LOST movie would be awesome!! cant remember who posted the idea.

peace & love to all!

#529. Posted by: tiffani at March 18, 2008 3:21 PM

i like c.s. lewis' accent n i wud b very disappointed if sawyer is last oceanic six

#530. Posted by: Sumit at March 18, 2008 3:33 PM

@not an other

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Jin's flashback in Yi Jeon may have been the only one in season 4 that was about one of the *original* characters from season 1. All the other flashbacks have been of new or newer characters. It seems that every character on the show no matter when they are introduced has to have at least ONE flashback if they are central to the story. That's why we're getting freightie FBs. Anyway, when I said I thought the show was never going to do flashbacks again, I was being pretty sloppy with my words (since as you've pointed out it's not true). What I meant was, I thought that first (huge) crop of flashbacks of our original characters is all washed up so I thought (hoped) we were finally done with them. That's what I wish for anyway... though you are right, nobody who works on the show ever claimed that it was so. I just took the introduction of the bombshell FF #1 at the finale of S3 to be an implicit promise (dumb me!) that the story was now going forward, not backward, in a kind of poetic counterpoint to the FBs so far. Which for the most part is true. But obviously there's no rule against FBs now, oh well. My fear is this.. at some point it gets ridiculous to keep heaping on flashbacks, and it creates distrust/unease in the audience... especially "dark twisty secret" FBs... (these kind of things if taken too far threaten to undermine the backstories completely)... just my 2 cents... thanks, CB

#531. Posted by: catbarf at March 18, 2008 3:36 PM

SMOKIE only appears on the island at either 4:20pm or 4:20am according to Lostpedia... its "canon." I think we are onto something...

#532. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 18, 2008 3:53 PM

@ Mr_Naysayer - 495
I hate Juliet. I hate Kate.

"Man Behind the Curtain" is the greatest episode of all time! Especially because it was BEN. and Jacob was there and everything. It was amazing.

"Am I the only one who noticed that Locke's father and Locke are about the same age?"

...I was thinking that. But I think Anthony Cooper was being presented as an older person that looked younger, and John Locke as a younger person that looked older. Considering the fact that Anthony Cooper is/was a con man, the age at which he impregnated Locke's mother could be anywhere from when he was 18 - 25.

Which could mean that Locke is 35-40 and Cooper is 55-60.

But you're right. They do look the same age. I'm not sure what I'm rambling about anymore.

"Why does every actor who gets arrested for a DUI in real life have their character killed off on the fictional island? Would that then mean if Hurley drives the Dharma van after drinking too many Dharma beers and gets pulled over by an Dharma cop, would Jorge Garcia die in real life?"

Nice one. =]

We probably won't get another Hurley episode for a while, since his was the primere. But he'll probably be in all of the FF's.

@ Mr_Naysayer - 514
So I don't get it... Why is that bad?

@ En Provence - 519
Thanks for letting me know about the keyboards! That's interesting. I wonder how keyboards are for the languages that don't really have "letters" (they go by sound). I guess it would work anyway.

@ Crispy Seaplanes - 526
"And shouldn't dublxx be Maggie Simpson (as long as we're going with the young jokes)? Guess I'm not getting on the list..."

I thought we were pushing the "smart" fact.

You're spot on the list is becoming debatable =]

FUTURE REFERENCE: I was just making a joke... I don't judge people by their opinions of me. But you were just making a joke too. So I guess if someone disses me, but then says something really smart about something else, they can still get on the list. (Not trying to encourage anyone to diss me). =D (Evil yet?)

Aaron is not one of the six.

AND I still think that VINCENT = SMOKE MONSTER.

#533. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 18, 2008 4:11 PM

Oh & BTW IHeartBL...

The word "gullible" is no longer in the dictionary. The OED folks made quite the egregious error.

Don't believe me?

Look it up for yourself.

#534. Posted by: Randy at March 18, 2008 4:17 PM

@ Randy - 534
I know that one! That's SOO MIDDLE SCHOOL. =P

#535. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 18, 2008 4:45 PM

Q: What is greyish/blue in color & sounds like a bell?

A: BONG, BONG, BONG!

NEE!

#536. Posted by: cookie at March 18, 2008 4:58 PM

→ 533. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
AND I still think that VINCENT = SMOKE MONSTER.
________
1) - You are easily the most humorous pontificator this day. I love the whole 'photo-shop-ish' monologue. Your funny side is really turning in to your sunny side.

2) - There is merit to your 'VINCENT is one of the island mysteries' theorem. How did Vincent survive the crash? He would not have been in the cabin. He would have been in the nose section, under first class, in a cage (near Jacks dad?). We all saw what happened to the nose section, and the Pilot-in-Command. Hanging in the trees! So Vincent survived the nose section, got out of his cage, evaded Smokey (Cerberus), got back to the fuselage folks - and not a scratch. That - is one magic dog!

3) - Ignore the Maggie Simpson reference. She says nothing... but is an excellent marksman.

#537. Posted by: DocH at March 18, 2008 5:02 PM

→ 531. Posted by: catbarf

"FBs... (these kind of things if taken too far threaten to undermine the
backstories completely)... just my 2 cents..."

here's some 1st season characters' fb's i'd like to see:

rousseau !! what is up w/ that chick?
more walt
christian
marvin candle

and these season 2/3:

LIBBY!!
more penny
and her dad
naomi
mikhail
kelvin and/or radzinsky
sarah
sam toomey
mrs hawking!!
richard alpert!!
tom
ethan
jacob
karl

#538. Posted by: En Provence at March 18, 2008 5:13 PM

@@@@@@@@@

@ 533. ilovebenjaminlinusxx
"why is that bad?"

Well, Its not bad at all... like I said it can be quite beautiful... some people might not like it, but it seems a lot people do - one of nature's finest creations. It was even written in the ancient papers of the scholars C'heech and Ch'ong about how nature and our 5 senses can become one in such beautiful harmony when in its presence, etc, etc ... but anyways...

@@@@@@@@@@

I wonder if Jacob can take on the look of other beings and animals, and is able to roam the island - but when Ben puts the kittylitter ash around his cabin, he can't go anywhere and is stuck...

just a thought... dismiss it at will!


#539. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 18, 2008 5:26 PM

@Cecil #497: re Locke's mom

"Theresa falls up the stairs. Theresa falls down the stairs."

Locke saw his mother in a vision/dream on the island pointing at the Nigerian plane as it crashed in the jungle. She was repeating the phrase above. He later discovered that Theresa was Boone's childhood nanny and Boone believed he caused her to fall down the stairs to her death.

I found that scene very disturbing, which is probably why it sticks in my memory.

#540. Posted by: Clementine at March 18, 2008 5:31 PM

@509 ilovebenjaminlinusxx was puzzled:

>>@ Cecil Rose - 496
>>"First, you must bring me a shrubbery."

>...I don't get it.

You'll have to watch "Monty Python and the Holy Grail", specifically the 'Knights Who Say "Ni"' scene. (Reference to your asking people to vore "aye" or "ne".)

#541. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 18, 2008 5:35 PM

-485 ealgumby: just wondering...how long did it take you to compose and write that one? Is your house papered with LOST storyboards? My admiration of you grows with every entry here.

-518 en provence: you referred to ealgumby as "her" and "she". I believe e.l. is quite male; and quite cute, as I recall, too (from an earlier tinyurl he posted prior to your arrival on Mac's site).

-505 Mr N-S: just when I was starting to like you, you start bashing the Scarf and the Panda. Remember: that's what made you famous here, so don't bite the hand....

After reading 530+ posts, it's hard to add anything except to say that I'm more confused than ever about Jin and Sun and their FFs/FBs. So now I'm fence-sitting, too.

I have to wonder: has there ever been another tv show that is so scrutinized as this one - and by so many viewers?

Have the writers ever seen so much debate, discourse, discussion, deliberation, dispute, discovery, detection, disagreement, dissection, discrimination, dissention, and determination??

All of the above is rhetorical. You can get back to the real issues now.

#542. Posted by: lovelost at March 18, 2008 5:43 PM

I have been going back and forth in my opinions on what is LOST.

I have watched the show since Episode 1 and I have waited for answers to the questions posed by the producers. In the end, I want a plausible, overall premise to the Show that explains the Lost mysteries and plot lines. My theories have evolved from day one to present. (PC = plane crashed; NC = No crash).

1. Purgatory. (PC) No one survived the crash. Those souls with unresolved issues (parent, criminal, behavioral) are set in a place where they can resolve them in a good v. evil setting. Those who resolve their issues, “die” or leave purgatory for the next realm. This explains the supernatural elements, plus the character’s visions (Eko’s plane, Kate’s horse) being out of place on a real island.

2. Interactive Dream. (NC) The plane never crashed; the passengers are just asleep on the long flight, but somehow their dreams became interconnected to form a new complex subconscious wi-fi network. The passengers collective thoughts, dreams, perceptions and fears are the basis of collective dream. People “died” on the island by waking up during the flight (disconnecting from this intranet). Explains early relationships, for example, Hurley’s polar beer (comic book) and Locke’s fantasy of living the outback fantasy he was denied in Australia.This also explains the supernatural elements, plus the character’s visions being out of place on a real island.

3. Mental Institution. (NC) All of the “survivors” have mental, social, psych or criminal issues that could intersect in a mental-hospital-institutional setting, such as a real progressive facility in the Eastern United States. The intersection of people at the mental institution was hard to ignore: Hurley and Libby being together in the day room; the numbers; Hurley seeing invisible friends; not wanting to leave. The Others could be in fact orderlies; the hatches are hospital wards/stations; the electromagnetic disturbances could be electro-shock therapy. Smokey is the manifestation of everyone’s fears. The show is about perception being reality in the minds of imbalanced patients.

4. Alien Abduction. (NC) Instead of simple anal probes, aliens have captured numerous human subjects and put them into a setting, in an underwater base (the snow globe), where the aliens can observe their reactions to stressful situations Premise is similar to Star Trek pilot. However, the island “lab rats” have people in the real world searching for them which would cause a problem to the aliens if there presence on earth was found. In addition, the entire experimental complex would be ruined if any of the test subjects “realize” that they are captive lab rats.

5. Hellspawn. (PC) The passengers are not in purgatory but Hell. Ben, a minion for the Devil, needs to create “new life” in Hell to form an army to go back through the Gates of Earth to battle Angels from Heaven on Judgment Day. He uses grim reapers like Alpert and Ethan to collect the scientific talent he needs to create his Hellspawn army. However, good and righteous people that have core values rebel against him. In the end, those who sacrifice and battle for good would be rewarded in the end by god (like a new life). The idea of the characters being dead has been reinforced by new characters coming to the island and saying that the 815ers were killed, or they themselves had been killed (Locke’s father was in a car crash.)

6. The Bad Game Show. (NC). Survivor + Fantasy Island + Island of Dr. Moreau pilot game show. However, the island’s natural properties cause the “Contestants” to be drugged/hypnotized in “characters” different than that of the original game show format which pitted teams against each other in a Truman Show type setting. The contestants create their own characterizations or visions of who they want to be; and their minds warp into a primal hunt or be hunted mentality. The producers lose control over the situation. The Others and 815ers minds warp into vicious and deadly confrontations that leads to the show’s producers with a show that cannot be sold to the networks. In order to cover up the scandal, the producers conspire to erase everything by arranging a “real” plane crash with the contestants (alive and dead) in order for the last contestants to go home. The game show producers and the title sponsor, Oceanic Airlines, fake a plane crash and script a story of survival with the “Oceanic 6.” In other words, the fake plane crash itself is the final flash forward to the series.

6. The Hoax or Big Con.

There has been considerable debate on the growing inconsistencies, continuity and prop errors in a show that touts itself as very precise on its story development. What seems to be consistent from episode one is in the concept of deception - - - the con artist, the misdirection, using people, the deals and double crosses.

(a) On the characters themselves. (NC) They were never on 815 that crashed; they were drugged and hypnotized into believing they crashed on an island. They are the lab rats for scientists researching a mysterious island properties (the new Area 51). Those research activities include mind control, biological and chemical agents, electromagnetic navigation disruption, stealth field generation. The flashbacks are the characters real memories; the island is their present perception of reality; and flash forwards are their dreams.

(b) On the viewers; us. (NC) This is a twisted take on a Mercury Theater production; the boiler plate television writing resolutions to create cheesy dramatic moments(the Faraday countdown at the Tempest), the implausible actions by the actors (Juliet walking past a huge Emergency Shut Down Switch at the Tempest), the factual errors in the medical science (Ben’s medical charts; Juliet’s explanation of white cells decreasing causing a deadly immune response) and Kate’s jury trial procedure (totally wrong at every level), seem intentional and blatant. How many times have viewers screamed why did not a character ask a simple question or confront someone with the obvious? Because they are just actors working off a script. The show’s real premise is don’t believe any statement given by any character; the truth is only hidden in plain sight. So LOST is a television show about a television series that has been edited out of order to confuse us. Once the show is completed, the producers sell us a boxed set of new DVDs showing LOST in the proper time frame, with a new logo, EXPOSE. So LOST was a hoax on us being a TV show about a TV show.

The odd thing is that when I list these theories, the conclusion is that is more probable than not that Flight 815 never crashed on the island.


#543. Posted by: welh at March 18, 2008 5:44 PM

@ DocH - 537
I told you I'm known for being funny =]

Unfortunately I can't live upto everyone else's sense of humor on this blog. =[

Back to Vincent = Smokey: it would explain why Vincent keeps leaving and coming back. He never stays in one place for a long time. Well, most dogs don't, but he goes into the jungle for a long time, then goes back to the beach.

If he was really a security system that Ben can control, maybe Ben uses him as a "spy"?

Maybe I'm stretching it too much.

And yes, I would much rather be Lisa =]

@ Mr_Naysayer - 539
Yeah but JoePike said, (506) "Easy on the bong references boys...we're trying to keep ilovebenjixx sweet and innocent!" So doesn't that imply that whatever that is, means something bad? Or just inappropriate.

Some kind of dust is used to keep "ghots" or "supernatural" things in place. As in, they can't escape the area that the dust/powder stuff is surrounding. They have to stay in those boundaries otherwise something happens to them... as in, bad.

I don't know how to explain it. I just know people that believe in supernatural things believe in that... well I think. I saw it on something before.

I apologize if I made no sense.

So I watched the Audition tapes... Dominic Monaghan (Charlie), Matthew Fox(Jack), Josh Holloway (Sawyer), AND Jorge Garcia (Hurley) tried out for the part of Sawyer! I'm glad nobody else made it. Sawyer does it perfect. Hurley did the lines pretty well.

I knew that Charlie and Jack tried out for Sawyer, but I didn't know that Hurley did. Funny.

Now I'm just trying to imagine them as Sawyer... and Sawyer as them.

I think all the roles were selected perfectly.

#544. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 18, 2008 5:45 PM

"There are some who call me ... Tim?"

Now you've done it! Quoting my all-time favorite movie!

#545. Posted by: mac at March 18, 2008 6:01 PM

@ welh -

It could be a lie to mislead us, but the creators of Lost have discounted several of your theories. I believe, and would be disappointed if not, that the 815 crash was very real. I am curious how you would explain the viewers witnessing the crash in several different episodes. Good post, I just happen to disagree.

#546. Posted by: Not an Other at March 18, 2008 6:09 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx
I'd like to nominate Crispy Seaplanes for your list, if only because I found myself walking to the store today and hearing "Crispy Seaplanes" in my head. That blew my mind.

Homer Simpson: Mmmmmm, Crispy Seaplanes.
* * *
Elaine: Then maybe YOU have a fax machine.
Kramer: You just blew my mind.
* * *
More canon. In every episode:
- None of the survivers will ask a relevant question (until season 4).
- Ben will have one "bug eye" scene.
- Jack will do something knuckleheaded.
- Locke will do something even more knuckleheaded.
* * *
Charlie to Smokey: Just say Nie.

Didn't someone once say Smokey was attached to the island in some way?
* * *
@welh 543 - That was great. Are you going "Truman Show" on us?!

#547. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 18, 2008 6:21 PM

@@@@@@@@@

wow...

@@@@@@@@@

#548. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 18, 2008 6:26 PM

@ Mr. Naysayer -
Well said!

Namaste

#549. Posted by: Not an Other at March 18, 2008 6:27 PM

@ Mr_Naysayer
"I'd like to nominate Crispy Seaplanes for your list, if only because I found myself walking to the store today and hearing "Crispy Seaplanes" in my head. That blew my mind."

Good reason, I will consider it. I'm not sure I'm ready to make my list "go public" and have nominations and stuff.

But you make it seem convincing.

I said people have to "earn" a spot on my list... Well, your story may have just earned Crispy Seaplanes a spot on my list.

HOWEVER it is not final yet. So don't get TOO excited.

Am I the youngest one here? I'm assuming everyone's over 30.

And then there's me... who's under 18. 2 years to be exact. But not totally exact if we get into months and all.

#550. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 18, 2008 6:47 PM

@ lovelost - 542
"-518 en provence: you referred to ealgumby as "her" and "she". I believe e.l. is quite male; and quite cute, as I recall, too (from an earlier tinyurl he posted prior to your arrival on Mac's site)."

Really? "Cute"? As in baby cute? Old cute? Shrivelled up cute? Because no offense, I've always pictured him as mid 30s or 40s in front of a computer eating cookies... not sure why.

Sorry ealgumby, you're still cool! =]

#551. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 18, 2008 6:55 PM

mac... this one's for you -

"LOST and the Holy Grail"

(In their quest for the grail, the Pythons' stumble upon a mystical island with caves and hidden chambers. Just as they enter a chamber with an Orchid like symbol on the door, a rabbit with an "XV" marking appears, as from thin air...)
=======================
TIM: I warned you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you knew it all, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it?

KNIGHTS: Charge! [squeak squeak squeak]
Aaaaugh!, Aaaugh!, etc.

ARTHUR: Run away! Run away!

KNIGHTS: Run away! Run away!...

ARTHUR: Right. How many did we lose?

GALAHAD: Three, sir.

ARTHUR: Three? We'd better not risk another frontal assault. That rabbit's dynamite!

ROBIN: Would it help to confuse it if we run away more?

ARTHUR: Oh, shut up and go and change your armor.

GALAHAD: Let us taunt it! It may become so cross that it will make a mistake.

LANCELOT: We have the Holy Hand Grenade.

ARTHUR: Yes, of course! The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch! 'Tis one of the sacred relics Brother Maynard carries with him! Brother Maynard! Bring up the Holy Hand Grenade!

BROTHER MAYNARD: Uh, sorry sire. We used the last one on that ghost whisperer chap back in the mill house.

#552. Posted by: DocH at March 18, 2008 7:30 PM

→ 551. Posted by: ILBLxx
Re: ealgumby (maybe in his 30's?)
You might be too young to think he's cute (if he is indeed over 30). He can still be cute and eat cookies in front of the computer,though, don't you think? Hmmm...that's quite an image.

If you are the youngest here (at 18+), I am most likely the oldest. Not only am I over 30, but over 30 years older than most here. That may explain why I think e.l. is cute!

I think I just heard e.l.'s head explode against the wall. Where's Michael, er Kevin, to clean it up?


#553. Posted by: lovelost at March 18, 2008 7:42 PM

@ilovebenxx/511
"It's odd how I thought you were dumb a long time ago after you said something and I got really mad at you. So sorry about that."

No problem, just glad to hear I'm off your "dumb" list ...

Just goes to show, the minority of opinion is not always wrong, simply because it is supported by fewer voices. Sometimes those voices must be a bit loud in order to be heard.

It's easy to get a little irritated with those loud, isolated voices, when you're on the side of conventional wisdom ... you might find yourself thinking, "Why can't this idiot just shut up, and get with the program? We already know the truth."

It's also easy to get testy when you're the one being called dumb for not giving in to peer pressure and silencing yourself ... when you feel persecuted, the last of Masada, it's hard not to lash out against the siege.

So easy to forget that different perspectives are what provide perception of depth, and likewise different points of view, even those that may be wrong, ultimately provide greater perception of the subject matter at hand.

As an aside, I saw a new Maserati Quattroporte on the beltway this morning ... with a bumper sticker ... a big, gaudy, bumper sticker! About cried ... IMO, that's like pasting a baseball cap on Michelangelo's David. Oh well, yet another exercise in encouraging tolerance and diversity of opinion ...

#554. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 8:08 PM

@En Provence/518
@lovelost/542
@ilovebenxx/551

My feminine side must be showing here on this blog! Yes, in fact, I am a dude. Will not comment on my own appearance, but thank you ilovelost. :)

Funny thing is, my first name and MI are "Erik A." and I sometimes get female-oriented bulk mail addressed to "Erika" ... certainly not going to begrudge the occassional Frederick's/VS catalog thrown my way as a result though!

#555. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 8:28 PM

@Crispy Seaplanes/526

Sorry for the drunken post (friends don't let friends post drunk ...) ... my GF was murdered last year.

#556. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 8:33 PM

@Mr_Naysayer/539
"I wonder if Jacob can take on the look of other beings and animals, and is able to roam the island - but when Ben puts the kittylitter ash around his cabin, he can't go anywhere and is stuck..."

Anyone remember the entrance to the Black Lodge from Twin Peaks?

#557. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 8:35 PM

@@@@@@@@@@@@

@ 550 Benlinusxx -

I didn't say anything about CrispySeaplanes, that was Scooby-Dude... but I am quite honored that you considered me as a voice of reason - you are a good judge of character. If I had a list, you'd be on it... that means a lot comin' from a naysayer like me.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@

#558. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 18, 2008 9:10 PM

@ealgumby
Sorry to hear about that dude--can't imagine.
No probs with posting drunk! We'd never hear from meg and RNM otherwise!

************************************

Ben: But I shot you in the kidney!
Locke: It was just a flesh wound!

#559. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 18, 2008 9:29 PM

@Crispy Seaplanes/559

Thanks ...

Have always been partial to "The Ballad of Dennis Moore" myself ...

>>>
My lords, my ladies, on your feet, please.

I must ask you to do exactly as I say, or I shall be forced to shoot you right between the eyes.

Well, not *right* between the eyes, I mean when I say *between* the eyes, obviously I don't have to be that accurate, I mean, if I hit you in that sort of area, like that, obviously, that's all right for me, I mean, I don't have to try and sort of hit a point *bisecting* a line drawn between your pupils or anything like that. I mean, from my point of view, it's perfectly satisfactory...
>>>

#560. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 9:38 PM

@ealgumby - I'll give ya some drunk posting...

Lima ben drinking jack, now I want sun jin but I locked my keys in my karl. Can hugo in your ford or is it too hurley?

#561. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 18, 2008 10:15 PM

@Scooby-Dude/561

gault to give props, but want ta keel ya!

#562. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 10:31 PM

Strange directions we are taking now.

I can remember, not too many seasons ago, when this blog was all about silliness . . Sawyerisms, RedNeckManisms, becre8veisms, Mac-isms . . . Every episode, no matter how high the drama, always had this smart-aleck side to it . .there was always this “tongue-in-cheek” we-know-something-you-don’t know and we’ll keep you guessing in the absurdity of the moment tone to every episode.

And we would imediately champion the “Absurdity of the Week!”

But alas, strange directions we are taking now.

And basically, I blame the writers.

They have turned to the dark side this year. Everything is oh-soooo serious . . . and all of us have fallen into this morbid, see no humor, life and death scenario . . . and in our attempts to overanalyze every jot and tittle, we have turned into a bunch of . . .

not very funny people.

At the rate we’re going, we won’t have enough rough material to judge in the Razzle-Dazzle Funny Bloggerism contest this summer . . .

It will have to be the “Most Morbid Observation Contest”. (My, won’t that be a light-hearted list to chuckle over? . . )

I think DarrellAnn is probably crying her eyes out over this situation even as I speak . . .

Poor, poor DarrellAnn.

#563. Posted by: davidrh at March 18, 2008 10:31 PM

@davidrh/563

Has Mr_Naysayer touched a nerve, or was it me? I promise, ever so much, to be purely silly from now on.

#564. Posted by: ealgumby at March 18, 2008 10:45 PM

@Vacc

Thanks for jump starting my brain. I've been racking it for days trying to work out the reason that Ben allowed himself to be captured in season 2.I assume you all agree this was the case as Ben is at least 5 steps ahead of everybody else.
Even though complex, his plans are not full-proof which means he is risking his safety to protect what he loves (this is in no way an attempt to convince you he isnt a prick....because he is).
Anywho clearly Ben got captured to instigate the destruction of the hatch and begin his plan to attact the enemy off-coast.
He knew that Michael could be easily coerced knowing he wanted to get off the island so badly. The ships destruction is so important that he would trade Walt to ensure he had a spy on board.
In fact the reason they took Walt in the first place was to create a bait for when the plan fell into place.

As a side note has anyone else noticed the decrease in the menacing factors of 'the others' over the last 2 seasons. It took the whole camp to sort out Ethan who looked indestructable. By the end of season 3 Sayid was dispatching them with considerable ease and Sawyer was taking on 4 at a time.
Geesh 'they' just dont make em like 'they' used to

#565. Posted by: thomas hicks at March 18, 2008 11:04 PM

@ 565. Posted by: thomas hicks

re: weakness of the others

After re-watching S1, Ethan did not seem as super human as I originally remembered him. No longer so spooky.
No doubt, this is a direct result of my seeing the Others more as a messed up hippie commune gone awry.

But yeah - back in the day when we knew zip about them, it certainly seemed like super strength was going to somehow be a factor with the mysterious others. Now, I'm waiting for when we'll discover the Dharma ninja training hatch (that Ethan and Juliette graduated from)....

#566. Posted by: shikotee at March 18, 2008 11:36 PM

Wow! I finally read all the comments. It has taken me since late Thursday night (possibly the wee hours of Friday) to read them all. I wanted to read them all before I posted, but that was quite a job and I don't have a lot of time to spend reading.

A few thoughts, that I haven't seen mentioned (although I have to admit to skimming a few of the longer posts)...

Jin & Bernard's conversation on the fishing boat made me think, assuming that many of the Team-Jack 815ers remain alive after the "six" make it off the island...who will assume the leadership role of those left on the beach? With Kate, Jack, and Sayid gone (all who have taken leadership roles in the past), who will be the new leader? It seemed pretty clear that at least Bernard & Rose won't be heading back to Bennsylvania regardless of what happens.

Another thought, Kate seems to be the only one of the "Six" who seems happy with her post-island life. Rather than running as she had in the past, she returns to the US and faces the murder charges that have been haunting her.

The other 4 adult members of the "Six" seem lost both before the island and also in the flashforwards that we've seen. But Kate does not, I am not sure why this is. Has the island somehow “healed” her?

Also for some (morbid) reason I have been keeping track of the characters who have killed someone either before the crash, on the island, or after leaving the island. Not counting Aaron, Kate is the only one of the "Six" who has not (so far) killed anyone on the island. Could this have some significance as to why her post-island life is “better” than the other members of the “six”?

I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts and ideas, they make for quite a thought-provoking blog.

#567. Posted by: Christine at March 18, 2008 11:54 PM

@567. Posted by: Christine

Who did Claire kill on the island?

If possible, post your kill list. This actually crossed my mind not so long ago, so I would love to see it!

#568. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2008 12:04 AM

Lol - strike that Claire question!

I had killing on my mind, and somehow missed that you were referring to O6 members.

As mentioned though - would love to see your kill list!

#569. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2008 12:07 AM

@davidrh #563: I spent 10 minutes responding to you with multiple points where I agreed and disagreed, when I realized:

I just created a long, unfunny post guaranteed to annoy people. Ugh! Let me try again. I don’t think we’ve lost our funny-bone in Tunisia; our Blog see-saw is just a little overbalanced on the side of critical analysis, while RNM (and many others) are jumping as hard as they can on the comical end, but it’s stuck up in the air. Both equally important – just a little out-of-whack, IMHO. So I’m staging my own intervention. I have edited my entire long, unfunny self-dialogue down to this:

Give a witticism a whirl.

I can relate to what you said, and I promise to strive to be more lighthearted.

The End :)))

P.S. You do the same, please.

P.P.S. I’m currently picturing DarrellAnn wearing Cindy’s scarf like a babushka whilst riding a panda wearing a t-shirt imprinted with “One of the Six.” The panda’s wearing the t-shirt, not DarrellAnn or Cindy. So far, still not funny. Warning: You all may need to borrow some of En Provence’s pain meds, if I keep this up.

P.P.P.S Nothing's going to top bcre8ve's "Darth Freighter" this week.

P.P.P.P.S Damn, I can't stop. Hello, my name is Clementine, and I'm a long-poster.

#570. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 12:35 AM

Does anybody watch Lost with friends in a sort of Lost Party? I want to know if this was an enjoyable experience or not. I have really only watched Lost alone, but have recently been invited to watch with friends. What do you think?


Namaste

#571. Posted by: Not an Other at March 19, 2008 12:51 AM

Q: What did one Snowman say to the other?

A: Desmond is hot!

One was actually a Snowlady. Unfortunately, this was only discovered after vacc got slapped for trying to measure the distance between her Scarf and her carrot. Cecil, having many years of experience with the ladies under his belt, wisely kept his distance.

"That's no Guinea pig," said he.

#572. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 12:53 AM

→ 555. Posted by: ealgumby

I thought about whether you were male or female when I wrote "her". I had no idea so I picked a personal pronoun less commonly used--just to get it all cleared up ;)

glad that's out of the way.

I'm sorry some people think the blog has turned less funny than in previous seasons. I think it's more controversial, than dark. We have bong jokes, monty python (which I never watched, not my style), still cindy's scarf and many other hilarious comments from posters.

I think there's more guts to this season, and lots more intrigue and possibilities to discuss. The fact that we are now "off-island" and "on-island", past AND present makes theories more complex and in my opinion, more interesting.

So, first season we had the Losties and the island. Second season, the hatch and the Tailies, last season, the Others and this season, the collision b/t the Island world and the real world. Wow! I can't wait. This is so much better than a Gilligan's Island thing where we were stuck forever with the same cast and circumstances.

I wonder if, given the "super high octane storytelling" we're gonna get this season if there will be time for silly and fun epis like Hurley and the hippie van? But then again, a lot of people complained that epis like that didn't move the plot forward. Can't say that now, can we?

But what I'm yelling right now in my best whiny Michael voice:

"SMOKEY!!"
"SMOKEEEEY!!"
"SMOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYY!"

And, yes, I can type with two hands now. What a relief. Don't I sound smarter? *wink*

#573. Posted by: En Provence at March 19, 2008 5:17 AM

@@@@@@@@

I am always dead serious on here... if you go back and read every single one of my posts, you will find that I may need to loosen up a bit... I agree.

(yeah right!)

@@@@@@@@@

#574. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 19, 2008 8:26 AM

So a polar bear, Kate's horse and a penguin walk into a bar.

The bartender says "What is this, some sort of joke?"

Kate's horse says "Neigh!".


The bartender demands a shrubbery.

#575. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 19, 2008 8:58 AM

**********NOT A SPOILER*********

From TV Guide:

Lindelof satisfied the crowd's appetite for Lost scoop by revealing the real reason the four-toed statue has yet to be seen again. After the monument first appeared "we got a note back from the network that said, 'This is too weird,'" he explained. "I was like, 'Do you watch the show? This is too weird?' Essentially, they said, 'Could it be a six-toed statue?' I was like, 'Someone explain to me why a six-toed statue is less weird than a four-toed statue?' And they're still noodling on that."

#576. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 9:24 AM

@Clementine /576 - Now THAT'S weird!
Thanks for the info.

#577. Posted by: hurling at March 19, 2008 9:42 AM

Isn't it obvious? The original island inhabitants needed to please the so called island-gods. The island demanded a sacrifice every so often. The Losties haven't figured this out yet, so that's why they have so many problems on the island.

Some primal cultures sacrificed animals, some sacrificed virgins, etc. etc.

This island demands toes. Sacrificial toes. Hence, the 4 toed statue. Has anyone done a toe count on the Others? My guess is that they are somewhat toe deficient because they know how to please the island.

I would imagine they'll be finding 3, 2, and even 1 toed statues in the near future.

WGNSM
(We're gonna need smaller shoes)

#578. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 9:56 AM

WGNSS
(We're gonna need smaller shoes)

Holy Guacamole that was a silly mistake...

But you knew that, right? Now quit typing the tirades you were about to post pointing out my mistake!!!

#579. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 10:17 AM

@572 Clementine - "Cecil, having many years of experience with the ladies under his belt"

Cecil! What were all those ladies doing under your belt?

#580. Posted by: vacc at March 19, 2008 10:52 AM

→ 546. Posted by: Not an Other
" I am curious how you would explain the viewers witnessing the crash in several different episodes. Good post, I just happen to disagree."

I am hoping the writer-producers will explain it, but possible explanations could include:
1. Mind control. Subjecting people to mind altering drugs/experiences (like Alex's BF strapped to chair with that bizarre film) in order to implant a false memories in multiple individuals.
2. Fantasy. The perspective of the plane crash was inside someone's creative mind (mental patient).
3. Alternative reality. That the event is a programmed response like the action in a video game controls in the universe of an on-line game.

Is there any theory that explains everything that we have seen so far in the show?

#581. Posted by: welh at March 19, 2008 11:05 AM

@mac : Looks like you're on target for 600 posts to this week's recap. You're fast approaching superstardom!

WGNABB

#582. Posted by: vacc at March 19, 2008 11:17 AM

I wonder if Ben has perhaps had a "Desmond" experiance and has seen himself in the future. This could explain why he has placed himself in danger when it wasn't really necessary. If so, who is his constant?

Also, maybe the scarf/panda jokes are due to the sickness that Rousseau referenced in season 1.

#583. Posted by: DW at March 19, 2008 11:17 AM

Scarfs, Pandas and Bongs! Oh my!

#584. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 19, 2008 11:41 AM

@DW

I am convinced that Ben can indeed see the future which is why he is always 5 steps ahead. The reason he doesn't need a constant is because he hasnt tried to leave the island. This is also the reason he stays on the island to ontrol things i.e. sending that guy to recruit Juliet.

I think that moving away from the magnetic, temporal properties of the island forces the consciousness to jump back to a pivotal moment in your life. This obviously only happens to people who have been exposed to large amounts of these properties i.e. Desmond during explosion and Ben because he's been there a long time or an accident we are unaware of thusfar.
---------------------------------------
@Christine

You mentioned that kate is the only 6er that hasnt killed someone on the island. It's just that i don't remember Jack killing anyone either. i remember him beating Ethan to a pulp but it was Charlie that killed him.

I too would be interested in seeing that list

#585. Posted by: thomas hicks at March 19, 2008 11:58 AM

Wow! Naysayer has definitely eased his way into this group....and double xx with her list and all! :)

Ease up on making fun of the drunks...but, just for the record, sober posting again here. Although I do look forward to Friday, or maybe even Thursday considering I'm off Friday.

Speaking about the smoke monster - he's never really interested me at all. I'm not sure why, but it's almost like they added him as an afterthought to make it strange. Lately, the show is bizarre enough, so they don't need him.

Vincent fascinates me though. Has anyone considered his role in possibly being one of the six? You know PETA would go insane if they did leave him on the island.

#586. Posted by: meg at March 19, 2008 12:11 PM

@ Clementine #570 About your being a long poster. I have to admit, I do skim the long ones - especially if they aren't divided up into paragraphs! BUT, sometimes I check the name first, and I have to admit that if it's one of yours I am moe likely to read it.

@iluvbenlinus - weird how we get these mental pictures of people. I think we discussed this somewhere before. Oops, there's the bell - gotta go!

#587. Posted by: meg at March 19, 2008 12:20 PM

I want to go to prom...anybody interested?

#588. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 19, 2008 12:46 PM

@RNM - too funny, but I picture you as kind of a....you know, Red Neck Man!! :)

#589. Posted by: meg at March 19, 2008 12:50 PM

The panda already asked me.

#590. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 12:51 PM

@@@@@@@@@

@ 586 Meg

Is "easing" my way in a good thing or a bad thing?

Wait a minute... was my name on the passenger manifest? Someone outta double check that...

@@@@@@@@

#591. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 19, 2008 12:55 PM

POST 495! haahhahahahhahaha. And thats all I got to say about thaat. oh wait, one more HA for good measure.

#592. Posted by: Lostfan9 at March 19, 2008 1:01 PM

With all the talk of the damage to the freighter's engines and kitchen blad dee blah and the whole "...not moving..." thing, I have to wonder if maybe the boat isn't moving (don't they have an anchor on that thing?), but the island(s) is(are)?

Hey, it's as stupid and as plausible a theory as anything alse...well, maybe not as stupid as a panda-wearing scarf - or is that scarf-wearing panda? - but it's right up there.

Just doing my bit to get Mac to 600..

#593. Posted by: Randy at March 19, 2008 1:15 PM

RNM at prom
Asks ILBL to dance
Bell ring saves the day

#594. Posted by: lovelost at March 19, 2008 1:16 PM

I don't think Walt is on the freighter. I just decided that. What would be Kevin's (if, in fact, it is Michael) motivation? He has his son, he know's that he is safe. I don't think he would be reporting back to Ben if he knew Walt was OK. If he doesn't report back to Ben, why lie about your name? I think Ben has Walt and some other Other is holding him prisoner, probably on the island.

#595. Posted by: Not an Other at March 19, 2008 1:25 PM

→ 593. Posted by: Randy
Is the island moving?

Ben's and Daniel's instructions to keep on exact bearings would imply that it is stationary and there's only one way in and out.

However, whats-his-name suggested to Sayid that the boat might actually be moving. Which makes no sense, either, cuz if the boat IS moving, then those headings wouldn't work to/from the island. Maybe they're moving together.

And you'd certainly think that the boat would be anchored. (Or at least tied to a tree with the Scarf.) Perhaps the island's forces keep it in place.

Just noticed the posting time lapse from Clementine at 12:53 am and En provence at 5:17 am. So, the people here DO sleep after all.

#596. Posted by: lovelost at March 19, 2008 1:56 PM

Darn, I just learned there won't be another podcast until next week. Still patiently awaiting confirmation of the Six. (I'm hoping that by mentioning that, I won't provoke another outcry about Aaron. I think we covered all the contingencies and viewpoints. Just curious to hear the producers final say on the matter.)

On my feedreader, Lostfan9 was the 600th post. A few comments were eaten by the Blog monster last weekend. I think the universe course-corrected, and this is a clear indication that Meg, DW and myself will either be struck by lightening or will drown in an underwater station soon.

It's been nice knowing you all.

#597. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 1:58 PM

@lovelost #596 and Randy #593:

I thought the freighter may be moving through time (due to proximity to the island), not moving position.

Does the freighter have a constant?

#598. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 2:04 PM

@ randy and lovelost -
Great points! I felt that the Dr.'s comment about the freghter moving meant just that. But, if the coordinates are to work, it would have to be stationary. The island and freighter moving together would really blow my mind.

#599. Posted by: Not an Other at March 19, 2008 2:07 PM

600, by my counter anyway!


Namaste

#600. Posted by: Not an Other at March 19, 2008 2:09 PM

Where's the confetti?

#601. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2008 2:15 PM

@Not an Other #600:

See format suggestions below for significant milestone postings:

Not an Other is 600th!

or

NaOiS(ixhundreth)

#602. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 2:15 PM

Surely we'll hit 600 by the time this is posted so I won't get all mushy...

Yeah, I thought about the different bearings for Michael's and Frank's respective voyages.

But that actually makes more sense if the island is moving.

If the island is moving, to get to a given destination (time or space), Person A has to head at a certain direction to get there. As time passes, Person B would have to take a slightly different heading to get to the same spot. Otherwise they would take parallel headings and Person B would miss the destination. Just ask Amelia Earhart & Fred Noonan

#603. Posted by: Randy at March 19, 2008 2:15 PM

Surely we'll hit 600 by the time this is posted so I won't get all mushy...

Yeah, I thought about the different bearings for Michael's and Frank's respective voyages.

But that actually makes more sense if the island is moving.

If the island is moving, to get to a given destination (time or space), Person A has to head at a certain direction to get there. As time passes, Person B would have to take a slightly different heading to get to the same spot. Otherwise they would take parallel headings and Person B would miss the destination. Just ask Amelia Earhart & Fred Noonan...

#604. Posted by: Randy at March 19, 2008 2:15 PM

Wow. Almost 600 posts. Amazing. Read them all, fantastic insights and thoughts by all who take the time to post.

Most of the conjecture surrounds the issue of Jin’s FB/FF. In my mind, Occam's Razor points to FB, particularly Lisa Simpson’s reference to Jin using his own name. However, elgumby makes a compelling argument for a post 2002 FF. I primarily question the cell phone – my presumption, after learning it is a 2005 model is that the props crew could not get a 2000 cell phone and instead selected a current cell phone that had the look and feel of an older phone. I also think welh made some valid remarks regarding the lack of clarity in deducing the Jin/Sun timeline based on canonical references.

Did anyone else picture elgumby with a Jeremiah Johnson beard, aviator sunglasses and episode transcripts strewn across his floor when he wrote his epic post on the Jin FF/FB?

#605. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at March 19, 2008 2:19 PM

Make that over 600! Amazing.

#606. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at March 19, 2008 2:20 PM

Confetti for NaOiS:

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#607. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 2:23 PM

@Thundarr the Barbarian #605: "Did anyone else picture elgumby with a Jeremiah Johnson beard, aviator sunglasses and episode transcripts strewn across his floor when he wrote his epic post on the Jin FF/FB?"

Ha! That's perfect! Just so you know, for my epic posts, I'm usually wearing a bathrobe, playing Connect Four and mumbling to myself. And I always run it past my best friend Dave for spellcheck.

#608. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 2:35 PM

My guess is that they don't want to do a podcast since this last episode will make everything so crystal clear. (Michael's story, where Walt is now, where is Naomi's rotting body, Aaron as one of the 6, ILBLxx apoligizing profusely for not believing me...and putting me on her list to make up for it, certain other people being turned down for the prom, etc. etc.)

Or it could be that they don't have time for a podcast this week. But I think they'd rather focus on a podcast done next week which would kind of summarize part uno of this season.

#609. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 2:37 PM

@JoePike #609

Season 1, Hearts and Minds

In the words of John Locke to Boone Carlyle: "Is that what it (smokey) made you see?"

#610. Posted by: DW at March 19, 2008 2:45 PM

@JoePike #609: "...since this last episode will make everything so crystal clear."

Dear JoePike: You've obviously experienced a break with reality. Sit quietly and repeat after me, "I will not have high expectations. I will not have high expectations."

And when the episode is over, you may continue your Lost blog therapy sessions, to work through all the unanswerable questions that will surely arise.

See you after the show :)

#611. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 2:47 PM

@ Clementine #608

Since I am more of a reader than a poster, I just sit back in my blue shirt and debate whether I should have put on a red one.

#612. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at March 19, 2008 2:49 PM

@Thundarr #612: Do barbarians wear shirts? Here I was, picturing you in a furry toga!

#613. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 3:02 PM

Well, times change. The PETA folks are not so hip with the old school barbarian attire. Plus, I can't walk into my local coffee shop with my shirt off.

#614. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at March 19, 2008 3:10 PM

Thundarr...I really didn't mean that PETA comment I made a while back...:) Vincent does deserve to be one of the 6, along with all the bunnies and chickens who haven't been eaten yet!

#615. Posted by: meg at March 19, 2008 3:20 PM

Oh my darling Clementine, orange you funny!

Dagnabbit...you're probably right...I shouldn't have high expectations.

But just remember what Hope does when she goes to the zoo:

Hope springs a turtle.

#616. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 3:33 PM

sorry if someone's already said this because i haven't had time to read all the posts yet!! wouldn't the 6th oceanic 6 person be the one who was in the coffin that jack went to see?!?!

#617. Posted by: kathybart at March 19, 2008 3:33 PM

Oh my darling Clementine, orange you funny!

Dagnabbit...you're probably right...I shouldn't have high expectations.

But just remember what Hope does when she goes to the zoo:

Hope springs a turtle.

#618. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 3:38 PM

Yeah, that's right...I double posted. My post was JUST THAT GOOD!

#619. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 3:39 PM

Thundarr's version of the "My parents went to Vegas and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirt is a loin scarf...I mean cloth...that says, "All I want to do is crush my enemies, to drive them before me, and to hear the lamentations of their women" while eating panda-kabobs and drinking warm Dharma beer.

"When you and your pals made it with that cow...I wanna party with you, cowboy."

#620. Posted by: Randy at March 19, 2008 4:03 PM

@ 568 shikotee &
@ 858 thomas hicks

I will type up the "kill list" and post it when I have a little free time.

Incidentally I once knew a guy named Thomas Hicks in college.

#621. Posted by: Christine at March 19, 2008 4:37 PM

Carlton said the original plan was to stop at episode #7 before the hiatus, that it was a better "ending point", then they changed their minds, wonder why?
I'm glad Mac got to 600 posts, but it stresses me out when I know posts are piling up while I can't read them at work!

#622. Posted by: Rudy at March 19, 2008 4:38 PM

Carlton said the original plan was to stop at episode #7 before the hiatus, that it was a better "ending point", then they changed their minds, wonder why?
I'm glad Mac got to 600 posts, but it stresses me out when I know posts are piling up while I can't read them at work!

#623. Posted by: Rudy at March 19, 2008 4:38 PM

@ Randy

"And that's the fact, Jack!"

@ meg

No worries about the PETA Police. Just pointing out that furry togas are no longer the height of barbarian fashion. Loin scarves on the other hand....

#624. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at March 19, 2008 4:44 PM

@Clementine #598: The freighter's constant is the SS Minnow. ; )

#625. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 19, 2008 5:18 PM

@ Mr_Naysayer - 558
"I didn't say anything about CrispySeaplanes, that was Scooby-Dude... but I am quite honored that you considered me as a voice of reason - you are a good judge of character. If I had a list, you'd be on it... that means a lot comin' from a naysayer like me."

I don't know why, I could have sworn it was you. Sorry about that to you and Scooby-dude. I think I assumed it was you because of the ***'s in between. You usually put like @@@@ or #*#*#*#* or something like that.

Adding on to 567 by Christine (she brings up a few good points) -- I think the big questions are:

1. Why does Jack want to go back?
2. Why does Hurley want to go back?
and most importantely:
3. Why does Kate NOT want to go back?!

I could go into a deeper reason why those three questions are HUGE questions, but I'm not trying to win the longest rational post thing yet... and of course because they seem to be self-explanitory.

I'm refraining from being mean. I was about to tell someone that they are NOT going to get on my list anytime soon. Considering my noob comment earlier, it seems evident. Maybe saying that was mean anyway... forget I said it then.

@ Not an Other - 571
DON'T DO IT!!! Other people are so distracting! Especially when they talk while the show's going on. That mostly happens when the other person is not that big of a LOST. fan.

I make sure I'm ALONE when LOST. is on... I make sure no noobs are around, and I make sure there is no chance of any exterior noise around me. I devote all my concentration to LOST.

My parents know the routine, and my sister is in college; but when she comes home, she knows not to bother me. I'm alone in front of my HDTV at 9:15 every thursday night for LOST so I can forward the commercials. Sometimes my dad watches with me too, but it's okay because he doesn't talk. He usualy waits to watch it later on the Ti-Vo because he ends up falling asleep.

I've watched LOST. a few times with my friend, but she's a superfan too. She reads this blog, but she doesn't post on it.

Anyway, DON'T DO IT!!!

@ Clementine - 572
Q: What did one Snowman say to the other?
A: Smells like Lima Beans!

@ En Provence - 573
Something like, "Dude... You got some... Arznt on you" or like, "PEE ON MY FOOT MAN!!! DUDE, I SAW IT ON TV, IT'S THE ONLY WAY!" or like, "He has a name, it was Roger Workman!"

@ meg - 586
"Wow! Naysayer has definitely eased his way into this group....and double xx with her list and all! :)"

We're very loved. I love it. =]

@ meg - 587
"weird how we get these mental pictures of people. I think we discussed this somewhere before. Oops, there's the bell - gotta go!"

Haha... I can just imagine how you guys imagine me. It was really like a minute before class ended and I didn't even log out!

@ RNM - 588
I've been having quite a lot of Junior Prom drama lately. Interesting you brought that up.

@ lovelost - 594
"Bell ring saves the day"

Indeed. =]

@ Thundarr the Barbarian - 605
I'm usually in my sweat pants with textbooks on my lap and my cell phone next me. (Maybe that wasn't detailed enough).

@ JoePike - 609
YOU WISH. We all know that YOU will be the one apologizing to ME.

You're already on my list! You were almost the first person. But you never know, people's spots can come and go... =P

Jusssss Kiddin.

#626. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 19, 2008 5:23 PM

-616 and -618 Joe Pike
It was worth a second read.

-612 Thunder, -608 Clementine and -620 Randy
Picturing Thunder in his furry toga...and chewing on a Dhrama turkey leg.

I am the Panda, ergo I am wearing Cindy's scarf while posting.

#627. Posted by: lovelost at March 19, 2008 5:44 PM

Whoa, iluvbenxx. You may want to read post 605 again.

Also, I still can't believe you are 18.2 years old and don't know what a bong is. Perhaps in a year. As shikotee well knows, "there is a time and a place for everything, and it is called College."

#628. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarian at March 19, 2008 5:46 PM

@628

Ahhhh - how I miss Isaac Hayes!

In the immortal words of Towelie:

"I have no idea what's going on."

#629. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2008 6:13 PM

@622 Rudy
ABC decided to air the show over their objections

@629 shikotee
"Don't forget to bring a towel. You wanna get high?" Isaac Hayes is a sellout.

#630. Posted by: lost4ever at March 19, 2008 6:34 PM

NOIS - new acronym - up there with MIF (Not an Other IS Sixhundred!!)

Okay, I'll admit it ilovebl - I'm not totally sold on the whole belief that you are a high school kid. But, if that's what you say....Tell me what state you are in.

Okay DMIB (anyone guess what that is??)

#631. Posted by: meg at March 19, 2008 7:01 PM

@ Thundarr The Barbarian - 628
If I reacall correctly I said I was UNDER 18 years old... 2 to be exact (as in 2 years) which implies that I am in fact 16 (SIXTEEN) years old and a Junior in High School.

I should have made that more clear.

Here... I'll show you what I said:
"And then there's me... who's under 18. 2 years to be exact. But not totally exact if we get into months and all."

and FYI, I AM planning on going to college... and I'm even planning on going to an IV-League school... unless I'm not accepted of course.

Were you referring to the Lisa Simpson reference?

@ meg - 631
I'm in New Jersey. (In the United States of America).

What makes you think that I am NOT a HS kid?

Before I hinted that I was young, I was considering not even telling you guys. So I tried to seem older. I said I was taking the LSAT's... when really I was taking the SATs... I guess that was just a lie... but I wasn't sure I wanted to tell you guys that I was young. The "trust level" wasn't there yet.

Now it is... so I did.

You can decide weather you want to believe it or not.

#632. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 19, 2008 7:19 PM

628 Thundarr:

I believe she said she's 16.2. And I reiterate...Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

LKILBLxxSAI

(Let's Keep ILBLxx Sweet and Innocent)

Speaking of sweet and sort of innocent...Claire. She's had maybe 5 lines this whole season. Her glorious moment so far has been standing up to Locke when he was butchering Peter Cottontail. I really love her character and storyline, and I hope she gets more screen time this coming ep and in the second half of the season.

Obviously it's going to get juicy soon as we see just how she was left behind while her son gets off the island...presumably WITH Kate since Kate ends up with Turnip-Head in California. But I just hate to see her character wasted until then.

Plus...the Australian accent and those blue eyes...Aye Yaye Yaye.

Holy Guacamole- I just realized something!
Aaron ends up with an adoptive parent (Kate) living in CA...exactly the mission Claire had in mind when she got on Oceanic 815! Ya gotta love the writers.


#633. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 7:26 PM

Thank you JoePike =]

#634. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 19, 2008 7:33 PM

@meg/294
"DMIB (drunk meg is back!!)"

@meg/631
"Okay DMIB (anyone guess what that is??)"

Yes ... apparently so :)

#635. Posted by: ealgumby at March 19, 2008 7:35 PM

Alright everyone (noobs too), step back... meg was ours first. She is an icon here, a national treasure. We will not tolerate meg abuse. MIF has been, and will always be, "Meg Is First", even though folks want to make that - "mine is first".
As much as meg likes to make fun of meg, meg abuse will only be at the discretion of meg. No dog-piling there. All meg acronyms are permitted to exist, and will only continue to exist, at the very whim of meg. When meg says an acronym is done, its' done.


("meg is lost forever" = done)

#636. Posted by: DocH at March 19, 2008 7:59 PM

@JoePike #616/618: "Hope springs a turtle."

So true, so true. And regarding the ABC brass calling the statue "weird", I thinks it's a shame that, in this day and age, they can be so blatantly lack-toes intolerant.

BTW, it must be very difficult to double-post *around* someone else's comment. You must teach me this skill, Jedi master.

@Rudy #623: "I'm glad Mac got to 600 posts, but it stresses me out when I know posts are piling up while I can't read them at work!"

HA! I can relate. Glad we both have our priorities straight :)

@Alaïs #625: Wow, and Gilligan survived for years as a "red-shirt." Good catch!

@lovelost #627: "Picturing Thunder in his furry toga...and chewing on a Dhrama turkey leg. I am the Panda, ergo I am wearing Cindy's scarf while posting. "

Well, I hope you washed that scarf before you tied it around your neck, because I hear Scarfy is intimately acquainted with Thundarr's loins. (I really like Scarfy, but her weave is a little loose.)

@JoePike #633: Last we saw Claire, she was off to interrogate Miles. I predict he accidentally kills her while trying to escape. Her time draws near, if only because I don't want to see that god-awful wig anymore. Sorry to bash your island girlfriend, JoePike :)

@Meg #631 and ealgumby #635: "DMIB" Oh, Meg, you are so busted! Good catch, ealgumby.

#637. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 8:03 PM

-632 ILBL: "And then there's me... who's under 18. 2 years to be exact."

I'm with the majority (I think) who took you at your decimal value. 18.2 Not 18 (period) (New sentence) 2 years to be exact. So glad you cleared that up.

Meg: Still working on the DMIB. Might need some bubbly to stimulate my imagination.

Looks like withdrawal has set in for us all.

#638. Posted by: lovelost at March 19, 2008 8:09 PM

Thank you DocH - finally, I feel like I am understood here. Basically, what he is saying (to all outsiders) is that what I say, in fact is, and there is no arguing, unless I say there is arguing, and don't go calling the comma police and all, 'cause I'll use 'em if I want to,,,

Okay, ilovblinus...I'll trust ya. Just so you know, though, I am familiar with Jersey public schools! As we speak, there tech people are tracing your illegal internet usage during school hours. :)

ealgumby - someone is paying attention!! I guess I was drunk the first time that was posted and just forgot...ha! (btw, you ALL pay attention very well!)

Looking forward to tomorrow.

Free meg abuse is allowed for the next 10 minutes of this posted time, after that...please refrain.

#639. Posted by: meg at March 19, 2008 8:16 PM

oops, I meant lots of smiley faces :):) and, of course I meant "their" instead of "there'...give me another chance oh grammEr police of America....lol

#640. Posted by: meg...MIF at March 19, 2008 8:21 PM

Darling Clementine again:

WIG???? Claire???? Surely you jest. And don't call me Shirley.

Holy Guac did I laugh a little too hard at your lack-toes line. Chocolate hats off to you and your creativity.

"BTW, it must be very difficult to double-post *around* someone else's comment. You must teach me this skill, Jedi master."

My young Padawan, it's as simple as this:
1. Write some exceptionally poignant, thoughtful, witty, and intelligent prose.
2. Click Post.
3. Wait.
4. Wait some more.
5. Receive some sort of time out error.
6. Click your browser's Back button and return to your amazingly well written entry.
7. Click post again.
8. Smack your forehead with a Duff beer and shout "DOH!" when you realize you should have checked to see if your original entry posted successfully before clicking post again.
9. Refresh the screen to see that not only did you double-post, but someone managed to post one in between them.
9. Feel ashamed that Mac might feel less of you.
10. Create another post, a smart-arse post, to cover your embarrassment. (see #619)

There. It's as simple as that. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often! May the Force of posting patience be with you my young apprentice.

#641. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 8:24 PM

Back from vacation . . . At the end of the episode I thought Jin's story was a clearly flashback, and that the "twist" was that Sun's was a flash forward.

Interesting thoughts here about possible FF on both. One comment that caught my ear but which I don't think was discussed (I can't claim to have read all of the posts; too many, and too many that have little to do with the show): Hurley says "is anyone else coming?" Sun says No, and Hurley says "Good."

What did that mean? It sounded like he wanted to be alone with Sun, or he did not want to see anyone else, or . . . ? Anyone ele think that line was potentially significant?

#642. Posted by: JT4 at March 19, 2008 8:27 PM

Drat....

Just missed the 10 minute mark.
I was gonna tear into Meg like nobodies business. Alas!!!

And..... um..... we're half way to the 700 mark.....

#643. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2008 8:28 PM

ilovebenjaminlinusxx:

“I am in fact 16 (SIXTEEN) years old and a Junior in High School.”

I hope we all don’t get charged with statutory chat.

I'm too pretty to go to jail.

#644. Posted by: davidrh at March 19, 2008 8:30 PM

@642

The Hurley "good" line is pretty ambiguous as of yet, but I'm sure we'll get better understanding with more ff's.

It could suggest that when the O6 returned home and split up, that maybe it wasn't a pretty picture. I would imagine there must have been some arguing with regards to coming up with and maintaining the O6 lies. As Hurley has always been the moral conscience of them all, he may have been the most cheesed to stay silent about those left behind on the island.

My darkhorse fantasy bet is that Hurley is trying to get some play from Sun. Libbey-Shmibbey. Jin-Sin. Hugo is after some sweet loving from Sun! No one else there means no competition! Hugo has his needs......

#645. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2008 8:39 PM

@ meg - 639
Apparently they take "screen shots" of what we do... I don't believe it though. I think they just say that to scare us... but it's not like they could arrest me for going on this. Most of the sites are blocked anyway.

CLUE #2: I'm somewhere in Middlesex County.

TO ALL WHO DON'T BELIEVE: Do you really want to see my facebook? I didn't think it would come to this.

Or I can just post a tinyurl picture. But I don't know how to do that. And I'm a little cautios of what I put on this.

Don't want to give TOO MUCH info. I trust most people here, but there might be some random occasional viewer that sees my facebook link and then hunt me down and kill me.

I could just show you a picture if you guys REALLY don't believe me.

Anyway, unfortunately I'm not going to be here next week. I am going some place out of state for spring break... tomorrow's the last day of school!!!

I can stay up as late as I want, watch LOST. a billion times and wait for Mac to post the next episode recap.

@ lovelost - 638
That didn't comprehend. Thank you for clarifying for me and everyone else.

Me - that I didn't make it clear that it wasn't "18.2". I should have spelled it out or something.

and to everyone else: that I didn't say I was 18.2

Is 643 a record Mac?

#646. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 19, 2008 8:41 PM

Our dearest ILBLxx...let me be the parental Jacob of the group and ask you to please remain as anonymous as possible.

This will help you to help yourself stay as Sweet and Innocent as possible. While I do trust us regulars, and most of us non-regulars too...you just never know.

IIWAAIECW!

(If I'm Wrong About Aaron I'll Eat Claire's Wig!)

#647. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 8:53 PM

Okaaay then. Call me a prude but 16 years old, female, publishing clues about her location, offering to share pictures, and signing with an XX (formerly an XXX) . . . little creepy for me. One of us is on the wrong site.
@645 - those were my general thoughts too. I'm out.

#648. Posted by: JT4 at March 19, 2008 8:55 PM

Three things:

1. 646 posts? GOOD LORD! I'm glad the server got an upgrade ;) Seriously. I *never* expected this. I remember when a review cracked 50 posts and I thought it was amazing. Now, more than 600? Un-freakin-believable. (Sidenote: I really, truly believe the uptick in comments stems from the great group of regulars and the exceptional quality of the recent shows -- put those things together and BLAM! you've got yourself a fun little community of awesome people. I really do know how rare this kind of thing is, so thanks to everyone for making it happen!)

2. Let's be careful about revealing personal information on the blog (names, ages, locations, etc.). I know 99.9999 percent of the people who drop by are wonderful, phenomenal people, but in the off chance someone with a not-so-pleasant agenda stumbles upon our little "Lost" island, I'd prefer we all err on the side of caution. Mmmmkay?

3. DocH: "That rabbit's dynamite!" -- I say this *all the time*.

#649. Posted by: mac at March 19, 2008 8:55 PM

Ok, there's been discussion as to whether or not the island is moving or the ship is moving. Back when Ben is revealing the safe to Locke he makes a comment about the ship being 'parked' off this island. Ships don't park! I've been trying to come up with an answer to that comment and can't. Do you think the writers simply made a mistake or were they dumbing it down for the people that don't know anything about boating?

Also, in the FF when Ben asks Sayid if he wants to help his friends or not, do you think he was referring to the people on the island or to the rest of the O6?

#650. Posted by: pebsgonepostal at March 19, 2008 8:59 PM

@649. Posted by: mac

re: #2 personal information

Damn it Mac! And I just started sharpening my killing axe!!!

Consider yourself lucky ilovebenjaminlinusxx - Mac just saved ya!


Not certain if this comes across as comical, or just plain creepy!

#651. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2008 9:03 PM

Which is why I wasn't specific.

Sorry about that.

I am trying to stay as anonymous as possible. I just don't want to be accused of being some old creep that pretends being young.

Sorry Mac, and everyone else.

Anyway, I'm still going with the Vincent = Smoke Monster theory.

AND -- Aaron is NOT one of the six. =]

#652. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 19, 2008 9:12 PM

@650. Posted by: pebsgonepostal

re: boat

I assumed that it was meant that the boat was hanging out outside of the "snowglobe" perimeter of the island. It could not go any further because the whacky island defenses would not allow it. Now that the freighter is sabotaged, maybe the powers of the island are sucking it in (for the kill)?

I dunno - I suspect many people would have problems with an island of that size being able to move, so that makes me doubt the writers would do this. The island as a living moving creature would be way to "Encounter at Farpoint" for me! I guess time will tell...

#653. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2008 9:14 PM

I have a mole day joke for everyone!
(Chem): 1 Mole = 6.02 x 10^23 representative particles
(Even though it's nowhere close to mole day)

Q: Why was the mole on a hidden island in the South Pacific?
A: Because it was on Harper's face!

Yeah, I just made that up on the spot.

#654. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 19, 2008 9:16 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx: No worries. Just want to make sure everyone continues to feel safe!

#655. Posted by: mac at March 19, 2008 9:18 PM

Mac -- You can take that part out of 646 if you want. I'd actually prefer that.

I'm not that stupid... I promise.

I'm one of the last people that would ever give any personal information away on the internet... especially blogs.

But I am 16. The rest, I may have not been completely honest about.

#656. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 19, 2008 9:20 PM

@656. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

"The rest, I may have not been completely honest about."

Lol - not only do you love Ben - you act like him!

#657. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2008 9:26 PM

Not honest huh...so you DO think Aaron is one of the 6 !!!!!!

(I keed, I keed)

#658. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 9:42 PM

Thanks to everyone for getting silly in your latest posts - the silliness is what drew me to Mac and all your wonderful comments in the first place.

@Cecil Rose, DocH, and others: loving all your Monty Python references!

@DrunkMeg: red wine DOES go really well with this blog, thanx for the tip

@ilblxx #626: I'm the teacher who is trying to read the blog without my students catching me. Or I was, until the IT people blocked the site at work! You don't know how lucky you are to be able to get on here during the day.

Where is FenwayBen? It's only preseason, brutha - you'll have plenty of time to watch the Sox once Lost is on break. Do you get NESN in your part of the world?

Lastly,
@EnProvence #538: I, too, would like to see some backstory on Rousseau. She helps move the story along, but what do we really know about her except what she has told the Losties herself?

Well, in 24 hours and 10 minutes, we'll all be on "Lost Break" for a few weeks. Catch up on your sleep - the later time slot is going to hurt!

#659. Posted by: jaybee at March 19, 2008 9:49 PM

"Catch up on your sleep - the later time slot is going to hurt!"

Only on school nights.

;o)

#660. Posted by: JoePike at March 19, 2008 9:54 PM

Unfortunately I don't care what night it is! I stay up late reading this blog and then I get up late because I stayed up late and then I read the overnight messages while I eat breakfast and then I'm late for work! You guys are a bad influence on me and I love every minute of it!!!! Keep em comin'

#661. Posted by: pebsgonepostal@verizon.net at March 19, 2008 10:03 PM

@@@@@@@@@

I live in Niagara Falls, NY... if you guys wanna have the "First Annual Film- Fodder-Lost-Bloggers Summer BBQ Picnic 2008" here in my lovely city, you are all welcome to stay at my house.

But JoePike needs to keep his ax at home, he'll never make it through airport security...

Do you think that the "First Annual Film-Fodder-Lost-Bloggers Summer BBQ Picnic 2008" will fit on a t-shirt? I guess I gotta get about 600 made, right?

Meg - you bring the wine, ilovebenjaminlinusxx - you're in charge of the games (water balloon toss, three-legged race, etc), Shikotee - you bring the potato salad, Ealgumby - you bring the keg, Clementine - you are in charge of desserts, JoePike - jello shots... and Mac (obviously) - the mac n' cheese... everybody else just bring your favorite dish to pass.

ilovebenjaminlinusxx - would you mind being the designated driver? Someone will have to keep an eye on Meg's keys...

@@@@@@@@@@


#662. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 19, 2008 10:16 PM

@@@@@@@@@@@ - correction: that was Shikotee with the ax...

#663. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 19, 2008 10:21 PM

@641 JoePike: “WIG???? Claire???? Surely you jest.”

Sorry, Shirley, I couldn’t joke about that thing. I find it completely distracting!


Emilie de Ravin’s current hairstyle:

http://tinyurl*com/ywg3wr


And here we have the wig that you will be ingesting in the near future:

http://tinyurl*com/2vfch2

#664. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 10:21 PM

Wow... I now have a new appreciation for Emilie de Ravin - thanks Clementine!

and sorry about the double correction post - I got an error the first time, didn't think it posted. But anyhoo...

#665. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 19, 2008 10:27 PM

@Mr_Naysayer: I see you have mastered JoePike's double post *around* another poster technique. You are a quick study, Grasshopper. Mmmm, dessert. Choco-hats for everybody!

@shikotee: All crazy serial killers on this blog must be identified by an alternate handle when in crazy serial killer mode (e.g. Psycho Crispy). This gives the rest of us a fighting chance at survival. If you are indeed a crazy serial killer, please identify yourself appropriately.

If you are not a crazy serial killer, but merely have delusions of being a lumberjack, please disregard.

(Hmmm... what song is in my head?)

#666. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2008 10:41 PM

Coconut shells in hand, I'm ready to either go galloping about the countryside or make a radio, depending on which pop cultural reference one wishes to choose...

→ 436. Not an Other & 443. SanFin & I think others too: Is Aaron's existence public knowledge? Does Sun need to be concerned about Ji Yeon?

Good point. If Aaron's existence isn't public knowledge, it would mean that he's not one of the O6. Perhaps the O6 make it off the island in a running battle w/the Others as they try to snatch Aaron one last time, & Claire is killed/sacrifices herself to save Aaron? If Kate takes it on herself to be Aaron's "mom," she would certainly not want any public knowledge of him as it could put him in danger of being kidnapped, which would also help explain Kate's protectiveness of him in her FF scenes.

As far as Ji Yeon's safety goes, I think if I were Sun I'd be very concerned. So far as we know, Ji Yeon is the first baby to be conceived on-island & make it all the way to a live birth. If Ben's obsessed w/fertility & pregnancy, it seems to me that he'd be v-e-r-y interested in getting his nasty bug-eyed paws on Ji Yeon (& probably Sun too).

→ 440. En Provence
Zut alors! I hope that you're doing/feeling much better—glad to see you're back to using two hands to type. Merci beaucoup for the compliments...mais oui, of course you may use "Freighterous Four," & my dad's comment on his illegitimacy. And of course I was thinking of you first when I mentioned how we post in various languages!

→ 447. Cecil Rose: Charlie's swimming ability & self-sacrifice

2) Nevertheless, Charlie volunteers for the suicide mission because a) he seems fated to, and b) It will help Claire and Aaron get off the island.

3) This makes Charlie's self-sacrifice even more poignant.

Yep. I still miss Charlie. (sniff)


→ 452. Crispy Seaplanes: I so want the Jin/Sun story to end happily. They are one of the nicest love stories on tv (god--I am such a girly man sometimes!)

We love you just the way you are!

→ 458. AC: On Jack growing a massive beehive of a beard:

Anyone who remembers the beehives of the '60s would immediately wonder if Jack uses AquaNet to get his beard to be that stiff.

→ 472. Clementine: Brevity is the soul of lingerie. ~Dorothy Parker
Ha! That one's going in my folder of keepable quotes...

→ 561. Scooby-Dude:Lima ben drinking jack, now I want sun jin but I locked my keys in my karl. Can hugo in your ford or is it too hurley?

→ 562. ealgumby:gault to give props, but want ta keel ya!

→ 616. JoePike: Oh my darling Clementine, orange you funny!...Hope springs a turtle.

You all everybody are so clever! As the Princess of Puns, I hereby decree a salute of 21 rim shots for each of those...


→ 567. Christine: Is Kate happy w/her FF life because she's faced up to her past?
Interesting idea. Or is it because she's got Aaron to take care of & she's had to grow up? I think it's too early to say definitively that Kate's happy in her FF life, but it gives us something to look for in Kate's future FFs.

→ 572. Clementine & 580. vacc
@572 Clementine - "Cecil, having many years of experience with the ladies under his belt"

Cecil! What were all those ladies doing under your belt?

Cecil, you've been outed...you're a New York State governor. ; >

→ 575. Cecil Rose: The bartender demands a shrubbery.

Trivia bit for the day: There's actually a drink called a shrub. From the Slow Food USA Website: "Shrub is a colonial-day drink whose name is derived from the Arabic word sharab, to drink. It is a concentrated syrup made from fruit, vinegar, and sugar that is traditionally mixed with water to create a refreshing drink that is simultaneously tart and sweet. In the nineteenth-century, the drink was often spiked brandy or rum. Ubiquitous in colonial times, the use of shrubs as a flavoring for tonic and sodas subsided with increasing industrial production of foods."

→ 586. meg: The smoke monster's never really interested me at all:
I'm w/you, meg. Each time Smokey shows up on screen he/she/it's so obviously CG that it knocks me right out of the story.

→ 588. Red...Neck...Man & 590. Clementine
I want to go to prom...anybody interested?
The panda already asked me.

All right! If you're going w/the panda, Clementine, that leaves Des for me!

→ 603. Randy: Is the island moving? "Just ask Amelia Earhart & Fred Noonan..."

Which reminds us that we still don't know who Adam & Eve are. Or why Jack took the pouch of black & white stones & hid them.

→ 605. Thundarr The Barbarian: Did anyone else picture ealgumby with a Jeremiah Johnson beard, aviator sunglasses and episode transcripts strewn across his floor when he wrote his epic post on the Jin FF/FB?

Ha! Great image...

→ 605. Thundarr The Barbarian (cont.): Occam's Razor points to FB, particularly Lisa Simpson’s reference to Jin using his own name. However, ealgumby makes a compelling argument for a post 2002 FF. I primarily question the cell phone – my presumption, after learning it is a 2005 model is that the props crew could not get a 2000 cell phone and instead selected a current cell phone that had the look and feel of an older phone. I also think welh made some valid remarks regarding the lack of clarity in deducing the Jin/Sun timeline based on canonical references.

The more I think of the writing & production on the most recent episode, the more irritated I get. Clearly, thanks to the massive amounts of research that ealgumby, welh, vacc, JoePike, & others have done, certain canonical references don't line up w/each other in a logical fashion. I think that if the LOST production team doesn't have continuity editors, like Harry Potter (& what a job that would have been), they should recruit from the pool of talent here.

However, I'm not faulting the actors, especially Daniel Dae Kim & Yunjin Kim. As others here have mentioned, watching the story of their relationship unfold has been one of the best things about LOST.

And just as a teeny tiny trivia note, I found it interesting that of all of the Lostaways, Rose & Bernard & Jin & Sun are the only two married couples. Evidently all of the background folks/redshirts are either single, widowed, or were traveling w/o their partner—proportionally, though, having only 10% of the Lostaways be married couples seem low.

→ 662. Mr_Naysayer: I live in Niagara Falls, NY...
Howdy, neighbor! I'm another upstate NYer...& BTW, do you realize you put up Post 666?

→ 664. Clementine:
@641 JoePike: “WIG???? Claire????
...here we have the wig that you will be ingesting in the near future...

Yikes! Hairball! Where's catbarf when we need him/her?

Finally (really, I'm almost done), I ran across the following in a discussion on the Celtic Otherworld (from The Complete Idiot's Guide to Celtic Wisdom):

This story illustrates a number of interesting qualities associated with the otherworld:

*Time passes differently in the otherworld than in the physical world, & the passage of time does not have have the same effect on aging there as it does here.

*Although there are ways to move between the worlds, there are limits to what is possible in regard to inhabiting both realms.

*Immortality is possible in the otherworld, but cannot be imported back to the physical universe.

Sound familiar?

#667. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 19, 2008 10:50 PM

OK, since I am batting way below the Mendoza line or is that the Maginot line....I will not classify this as a spoiler just my 78 cents (adjusted for inflation).
Walt is still on the Island with Ben stashed somewhere (Jacob's the Hutt..the Temple of Goonies)
Micheal is being blackmailed by Ben to sabatoage the Freighter..
Michael is part of the Oceanic 6 (I am counting Aaron)and he wants to go back to the Island to get Waaaaalllllltttttt.


I think the Island is somehow inverted like the picture in the opening credits with skyscrapers reflected in the water of the Island..

The biggest nagging question is how did Faraday get the coordinates to the Island...From Widmore's Black Rock Diary?

Anyway, I think the two that Jack claims died later are Claire hence Aaron and Jin..
Hope this post isn't too long..I tried to keep it "Wafer thin"...Bon appetit....

#668. Posted by: UsetheSchwartz at March 19, 2008 10:53 PM

@ Alaïs_Longthought "- do you realize you were post 666?"

- Nah, my life is so upside down, I thought it was 999.

#669. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 19, 2008 11:09 PM

Every time I think there will be a lull in posting I come back to 60 posts.

I would like to extend my appreciation to those of you that congratulated me on the 600th post. I couldn't have done it without Mac, of course. There are so many to thank, you know who you are. I don't want to start a list, we now how that ends up.

Namaste and NOIS

#670. Posted by: Not an Other at March 20, 2008 3:08 AM

Know not now, of course. We know how that ends up. Sorry. I have heard there are grammar police and spelling nazis lurking around, and I thought I would head this one off at the pass.

Namaste and NOIS

#671. Posted by: Not an Other at March 20, 2008 3:10 AM

672. Posted by: Not an Other at March 20, 2008 3:10 AM

NOIS, my you're up late over there on the other side of the "puddle"! I thought I was the only one who posted in the wee hours, since it's 10:30am here in France.

Alas, being here, I won't see epi 8 until Saturday morning, at the earliest. By then, there'll be thousands of posts to read through and everything will have already been said :(

637. Posted by: Clementine

"I thinks it's a shame that, in this day and age, they can be so blatantly lack-toes intolerant."

Priceless! Definitely a COTN (coffee out the nose) line for me. I nominate you for "best Lost lines" season 4.

641. Posted by: JoePike

"Holy Guac did I laugh a little too hard at your lack-toes line. Chocolate hats off to you and your creativity."

I second that emotion! See above

637. Posted by: Clementine

"Her time draws near, if only because I don't want to see that god-awful wig anymore."

641. Posted by: JoePike

"WIG???? Claire???? Surely you jest."

My thoughts exactly! But then Clemie scoops us all:

664. Posted by: Clementine

And here we have the wig that you will be ingesting in the near future:

Thanks Clementine! I really had no idea. I knew they "cut" her bangs and I thought it was weird at the time and later that Kate or Sun didn't comment on it.

@Alias longthought

"of course you may use "Freighterous Four," & my dad's comment on his illegitimacy."

Thanks!

"And of course I was thinking of you first when I mentioned how we post in various languages!"

*goes all red and glowy* awwwwwww =)

"However, I'm not faulting the actors, especially Daniel Dae Kim & Yunjin Kim. As others here have mentioned, watching the story of their relationship unfold has been one of the best things about LOST."

Me too. I like how the writers have developed this relationship, just like in real life. But, I have to say, it's the writers who give Kim and Kim (like Jones and Jones in English, I guess) the lines and the story. I think we have to give them credit too. Also, while Sun and Jin were speaking a lot of Korean in this epi, I kept thinking about something I read a while ago about Daniel Dae Kim's Korean not being that good. I wonder if people who speak Korean are annoyed by that. Or even if what I read is true ;)

#672. Posted by: En Provence at March 20, 2008 5:31 AM

@646 ilovebenjaminlinusxx - Ruh-roh! Since I'm from Middlesex county, I now have to wonder if you're going to make a surprise guest appearance in one of my backstories.

I guess there would have to be time travel involved, because most of the really interesting things I'd be flashing back to probably occurred before you were born..

#673. Posted by: vacc at March 20, 2008 7:23 AM

SAT test prep question for ilovebenjaminlinusxx or anyone else:

In the following sequence of numbers, which one doesn't fit and why?
4 8 15 16 23 42

Will reveal answer at 3pm EST today if nobody responds. (Apologies if this was covered previously.)

#674. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 20, 2008 8:05 AM

@662. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer

"But JoePike needs to keep his ax at home"

Urge to kill, rising, rising, rising...

@663. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer

"correction: that was Shikotee with the ax..."

Urge to kill, fading...

@665. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer

"correction: that was Shikotee with the ax..."

....fading, fading, fading......

@667. Posted by: Clementine

"All crazy serial killers on this blog must be identified"

...fading, rising, rising.....

No TV and No Beer Make Shikotee something, something....

(And Mac says) - Go Crazy?

Don't Mind if I do!!!

#675. Posted by: shinning shikotee at March 20, 2008 8:35 AM

Scooby dooby dude,

I'm gonna go with 23 as it's the only prime #.

On a side note, since Michael is now re-introduced, and we've apparently got two characters who are seemingly on the verge of getting whacked (insert Jersey/Sopranos joke here), it occurs to me that Michael has offed unsuspecting losties before. mightn't he be apt to do it again?

#676. Posted by: Randy at March 20, 2008 8:35 AM

@677 + 678 Posted by: Randy

Hmmmmmm - bring back Michael as a killer? Damn - that would be awesome! Whenever it would be time for a character to be bumped, just bring in Mike for a guest appearance. Writers - make sure you don't forget to include classic dialogue such as "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!!!" or "They took my son" whenever he whacks someone.

My guess is that the return of Mike will signify a theme of redemption. The writers will likely use him to help the losties in some significant fashion, so his previous homicidal ways could be "forgiven".

#677. Posted by: shikotee at March 20, 2008 8:46 AM

Continuation of thought....

And everytime Michael kills someone, there must be lighting bolts and disruption in the sky, he must fall on his knees, and look up in the sky, and instead of yelling "There can only be one!" (a-la "Highlander"), he simply yells out "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!"

No need for Sean Connery....

#678. Posted by: shikotee at March 20, 2008 8:52 AM

→ 644. davidrh
"I hope we all don’t get charged with statutory chat.
I'm too pretty to go to jail."

LOL big time. That's almost as funny as ABC being lack-toes intolerant!

Way to go Clementine...bursting my bubble with irrefutable proof about Emilie de Ravin's head attire when she plays Claire. That first pic of her was pretty hot though...thanks!

Anyhoo, I refuse to believe it. I think it's the crisp and clean Hawaiian air, the magical Hawaiian sun, and a little lemon juice that not only keeps her blond, but makes her hair grow 4 times as fast when she's on set.

#679. Posted by: JoePike at March 20, 2008 8:57 AM

@626 ilovebenjaminlinusxx wondered:

>3. Why does Kate NOT want to go back?!

Well, we all know why Kate doesn't want to go back. Because she's got a court order not to leave the state for ten years. And we ALL know how law-abiding Kate is.

#680. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2008 9:15 AM

@632 ilovebenjaminlinusxx said:

>Before I hinted that I was young, I was considering not even telling you guys.

On the Internet, nobody knows that you're a /d/o/g/ high school sophomore.

Just to be clear, the dog reference is to an old New Yorker cartoon, which was of a dog typing at at computer talking to another dog.

But it's true - on the Internet - we *are* our words, and will be judged by them alone and teen-ager and geriatric alike, male and female, all equal in the eyes of their peers. It's the words that matter, and the ideas behind them. We know only as much or as little about you as you choose to reveal.

#681. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2008 9:28 AM

@637 my darlin' Clementine said:

>...I thinks it's a shame that, in this day and age, they can be so blatantly lack-toes intolerant.

*(Groan)*

#682. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2008 9:32 AM

@677 shikotee "his previous homicidal ways could be "forgiven"

I don't know about Ana-Lucia, but my guess is that Libby turns out to be one of the "bad guys" and that will inevitably justify Michael killing her.
Has it occurred to anyone else that Libby was a plant for Widmore and company?

Back when she was a mental patient in Hurley's flashback, I wondered if she was stalking Hurley, but her showing up in Desmond's FB to provide him with the very boat that strands him on the Island?? That's just too convenient..

So when Ben reveals Libby's true identity to the Lostaways, Hurley will once again realize that he was totally Scooby-Dooed - and while he may not forgive Michael, he will find his urge to kill .. fading... fading... fading...
fading

#683. Posted by: vacc at March 20, 2008 9:32 AM

@ilblxx:

Sorry about the "sophomore" in the above comment, which was before I saw you were a junior. When *I* was 16.2, *I* was a sophomore.

@All:

Lostie in a another context sighting. Cynthia "Libby" Watros, as an ambitious ADA's wife on "Law and Order Criminal Intent" (it was a rerun) in a thinly veiled version of the Duke Lacrosse case - with a twist.

#684. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2008 9:48 AM

Can't... believe... number... of... posts... brain... hurts...

@ MAC - is this the all-time record?

Well, until next week anyhow. I'm sure we are all going to go nuts after tonight. :)

#685. Posted by: The Duf at March 20, 2008 10:16 AM

@The Duf: It's certainly a one-week record. The only other time 600 was cracked was last season's finale, but that total was spread out over a long time.

#686. Posted by: mac at March 20, 2008 10:22 AM

Thanks Mac! I thought so, but wasn't sure. I'm sure it will hit 700 before tonight.

I can't believe it's already half the season! Or maybe more, if what I am hearing about "only 5 more" for this season is true. Is this 100% confirmed?

If so, seems we get stiffed for 3 shows worth! You can't show them just before the new season... can you? This show has often done unexpected things...

#687. Posted by: The Duf at March 20, 2008 10:39 AM

@687 The Duf "seems we get stiffed for 3 shows worth"
Yes, it is 100% confirmed that only 5 more episodes are being produced for season four - the remaining story arc for this season will be condensed into five, rather than eight installments.

Although they tried to play up the fact that the pace will pick up considerably as a result.. the way I see it, the storytelling balance HAS to be affected.
If the original plan for telling that part of the story called for eight distinct character "flashes" (fb's, ff's, on or off the island, whatever) then getting to the finish line in five episodes will likely come at the expense of the three stories deemed the least "plot critical" - and we may never even know that an entire Rousseau flashback ended up being scrapped.

However, Damon and Carlton did say in a podcast that the three episodes would be added back in later, keeping with their original plan for 48 episodes. They didn't say if they would be added to season five, six, or both, but in the end, we won't be cheated out of these three episodes.

#688. Posted by: vacc at March 20, 2008 11:15 AM

@vacc and The Duf: I think I heard the flashbacks likely to get the "axe" would be our new Freighterous Four (Miles, Charlotte, Dan and Lapidus). Or their backstories were orginally to be more involved than is now possible with the time constraints. If I come across a source for that information, I'll post it.

#689. Posted by: Clementine at March 20, 2008 11:22 AM

@650. Posted by: pebsgonepostal
"Ok, there's been discussion as to whether or not the island is moving or the ship is moving. Back when Ben is revealing the safe to Locke he makes a comment about the ship being 'parked' off this island. Ships don't park!"

@ 653. Posted by: shikotee

re: boat

"I assumed that it was meant that the boat was hanging out outside of the "snowglobe" perimeter of the island. It could not go any further because the whacky island defenses would not allow it. Now that the freighter is sabotaged, maybe the powers of the island are sucking it in (for the kill)?

I dunno - I suspect many people would have problems with an island of that size being able to move, so that makes me doubt the writers would do this. The island as a living moving creature would be way to "Encounter at Farpoint" for me! I guess time will tell..."

>>> This goes back to the conflicting facts that the island is "hard" to find, that you need updated coordinates for its location, and Faraday's experiment that has not been explained. Trying to connect the causes and effects to what is being shown as facts continues to be a challenge.

(Warning: questionable math assumptions follows) If a rocket travelling at 100 mph is supposed to land on the island in 30 seconds but takes 31 minutes, that would suppose that the island was "moving away" from the rocket launch (ship) at 93 mph. This is like the SAT questions about two trains leaving different stations at different speeds, etc. . .
That alone doesn't explain how the island could be moving.

What has also been bothersome was the Numbers input in the Hatch. The sequence every 108 minutes was needed in order to "vent" a build up to avoid an "incident." I assumed since the Hatch was destroyed, the natural build up would not be vented properly, so the island should have had many incidents. No incidents have happened. So the Hatch may have had the role of venting the pressure of forces keeping the island in place . . . an electromagnetic anchor. Since the Hatch blew up, the anchor was lost and the island began to move. Thus, Faraday's comment that things were getting worse was that the island was moving faster and then more difficult to find.

This explanation also makes the idea of the island location was in the Black Rock journal problematic if the island had been moving until the anchor was installed via the Hatch.


#690. Posted by: welh at March 20, 2008 12:00 PM

I don't have too much to say right now. Just wanted to get to 700 posts before tonight.

I can't wait for tonights episode even though I don't care for Michael.

I just want to thank everyone for making this the best Lost Blog ever.
I checked out some others but they got mean and nasty. It's nice to come here where you can say what you want and only be picked on in fun if you post something not so smart.:)

I don't post very much, but I read it everyday. You guys are awesome, especially those of you who do so much research to try to figure out what everything means. My husband thinks we're all nuts to be so involved in this show, but he's anal, so who cares?

Sorry this is longer than I thought it would be. Check you all out tomorrow!

#691. Posted by: LostMamacita at March 20, 2008 12:03 PM

I told you guys! There are three people in this world that I want to be like:

1. Benjamin Linus
2. Gregory House
3. Jigsaw (John Kramer)

I want my mind to work like all of theirs, and my personality to be like there's.

My personality more like House, and my mind more like all three of them. =]

Tonight is the new episode!!! YAY.

Anyway, I'm really scared to check my SAT scores. They came out today.

@ Scooby-Dude - 674
"SAT test prep question for ilovebenjaminlinusxx or anyone else:

In the following sequence of numbers, which one doesn't fit and why?
4 8 15 16 23 42"

I'd say the 23 -- Because 23 is the only prime number... I think.

About the designated driver thing -- I can't drive yet. But I can if there's someone over 21 that has had a licence for a minimum of 3 years. =]

I bet all of you fit that description.

I don't like Michael.
Jack breathes weird.

#692. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 20, 2008 12:06 PM

Dang, living in the MST zone, by the time I get up and get to the computer, this site has gone exponential overnight.

Back to LOST and Sun's wedding rings:
I know there was discussion previously (a million posts ago) about why she'd wear them at all. However, I don't recall this next thought being discussed. (I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong.)

I rewatched the last few minutes of Je Yeon last night. Sun removes the rings from the bag with her RIGHT hand; but then we see them in her LEFT hand, starting to slip them on her RIGHT hand. But when the camera pans down again, she is clearly putting them on her LEFT hand.

At first I thought it was an editing snafu. But I think it's meant to muddy the "Is Jin dead or alive?" waters.

Sun either:
1. Knows Jin is dead and therefore SHOULD wear the rings on her right hand, but isn't ready to accept it, so continues to wear them on the left.
or
2. Knows Jin is alive and, while she should be wearing the rings on her right hand to fool the rest of the world, she wants to continue honoring their marriage. Or whatever.

-662 Mr NS. I have often thought of proposing a convention of sorts for all of us Mac fans. Maybe at the end of the show. As in the case of ILBL, there's something sacred about the anonymity of it all.

-Davidh: Statutory chat
-Clementine: Lack-toes
-JoePike: Hope springs a turtle.

Glad y'all missed your calling and wound up here.


#693. Posted by: lovelost at March 20, 2008 12:06 PM

Has anyone found out if the bag with the rings in it had Sun's name? I thought I read somewhere waaaaay up there, that it had another name on it.

#694. Posted by: Rudy at March 20, 2008 12:17 PM

i dont like spam!

#695. Posted by: mike625 at March 20, 2008 12:24 PM

@@@@@@@@@

I really hope that tonight's episode answers some questions, without starting a dozen new mysteries....


@@@@@@@@@

#696. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 20, 2008 12:26 PM

@mike625: Did your mom pack your lunch again? Just order something out instead.

#697. Posted by: Clementine at March 20, 2008 12:29 PM

@mike265

Try some mayo on white bread. Close your eyes and "scarf" it up.

#698. Posted by: DW at March 20, 2008 12:32 PM

OMG--take a day off from reading the postings and there's almost 700! I thought there'd be maybe 5 or 6 with it getting so late in the week.
I think we should be sure to thank
Misty and her itchy trigger finger for helping us pad our stats this week!

#699. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 20, 2008 12:37 PM

Am I the 700th customer?

What do I win? What do I win?!!!

#700. Posted by: shikotee at March 20, 2008 12:38 PM

@shikotee

You win a round trip ticket to Sydney via LAX. Flight number Oceanic 815.

#701. Posted by: DW at March 20, 2008 12:50 PM

With tonights episode revolved around the freighter, will they reveal the answer to 'Why were the dharma shark waters chummed with Regina?'

#702. Posted by: JT at March 20, 2008 1:21 PM

→ 672. En Provence: Re the writers & Jin & Sun:

Yes, sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I agree w/you that the writers have done a marvelous job w/Jin's & Sun's dialogue & story...I'm just irritated w/their (the writers') messing up w/canonical (never thought I'd need to type that word) information as ealgumby revealed.

→ 677. shikotee: Re Michael & redemption:

Seeing as how redemption has emerged as one of the big themes in LOST, that makes all kinds of sense. But Michael had better not redeem himself too fast, or Harold Perrineau's return engagement won't be long!

#703. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 20, 2008 1:56 PM

While we have a quite moment here, I'd like to wish everyone a Happy Easter and Passover.

http://tinyurl*com/2tn6l

Especially BunnyLover :))

#704. Posted by: Clementine at March 20, 2008 2:19 PM

For some reason (boredom?), I looked up Webster's definition of "scarf" and found this: "Either of the chamfered or cutaway ends that fit together to form a scarf joint".

Well, doesn't that just tie things up neatly. Bong! (That was the sound of my hand slapping my forehead.)

I now anxiouxly await the PANDemic that will certainly follow tonight's "Meet Kevin Johnson".

#705. Posted by: lovelost at March 20, 2008 2:23 PM

I'm anxious to see Link's backstory. Damn! Wrong story again.

Should we start calling him Kichael or Mevin? Ya'll decide!

I have a feeling tonight is gonna be sweet! Peace ya'll!

#706. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 20, 2008 2:39 PM

Speaking of Easter...if we're allowed to see the island story move forward 4 months...I can't wait to see the Losties celebrate Easter as much as they celebrated Christmas!

#707. Posted by: JoePike at March 20, 2008 2:47 PM

@ 705 lovelost - wow 3 bad puns in one post - awesome!

@@@@@@@@@

For anybody wondering... the bong is packed and ready for tonight's episode!

See y'all on the other side!

@@@@@@@@@

#708. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 20, 2008 2:55 PM

@vacc great thought on Libby not being an other but being a "other other Widmorian"

Ok I got this all figured out. There has to be a good smookie "white" and a bad Smokie "black"

Cause. When Dave tried to get Hurley to jump off the clif. That would have killed him. Now the island wants him back? Why try and kill him and then want him back if there were not 2 competing Smokie thingy's or maybe Jacob and smokie are enemies?

That was just too easy.

I pity the poor people that don't have Mac's Blog to really have a "lost experience".

We will end up have reunion's or something.

We can have name tags and everything !

#709. Posted by: SamFin at March 20, 2008 2:55 PM

@675 Shining Shikotee
Hilarious! The scariest part is that even though I'm the last of the six (not THAT six, I mean the hatch numbers) and saw The Shining when it first came out, all I could think about when I was reading your post was the Simpsons' version.

@683 vacc
I always suspected Libby was a plant, too. But then again haven't we all been Scooby-Dooed by this show.

@687, 688, 689
Thanks all for the news. I've been curious about how they could just excise 3 episodes when they had already planned 48 in total.

@700
Congrats, Mac (and shikotee for being #700). I'm scared what would happen if it ever hits 815.

#710. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 20, 2008 2:57 PM

@676 Randy and @692 ilovexx
Yep, 23's the only prime number.

@690 welh
You got me thinking: 23 is also the only one of the 6 numbers that is the sum of 2 of the other numbers. Which just happen to be 8+15.

Anyone ever try to pull a Charlie and try to figure out what the numbers could mean musically?
4 8 15 16 23 42

#711. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 20, 2008 3:00 PM

@ 429/Clementine

I think we are ALL on the same page ;). Heh heh.

#712. Posted by: r-Yawn at March 20, 2008 3:18 PM

*************************************
***********SPOILER ALERT*************
*************************************

Cynthia Watros (Libby) is credited in tonight's episode. It will be extrememly interesting to see how she connects with Michael's Johnson. So to speak.

*************************************
********END OF SPOILER ALERT*********
*************************************

#713. Posted by: Randy at March 20, 2008 3:19 PM

@r-Yawn #712:
To quote Cecil Rose - *(Groan)*

And are you planning on reading posts 430→current before tonight's episode?

(Nevermind, I'm talking to myself. r-Yawn has dived back into the blog and is probably reading ealgumby's treatise on FF/FB right about now.)

#714. Posted by: Clementine at March 20, 2008 3:32 PM

@ Clementine/#714: I love blog diving!! Isn't that what Regina did?

NSR = No Snorkel Required

#715. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 20, 2008 3:35 PM

If you read every one of the first 700 posts, plus mac's recap, that's 97,838 total words! (by comparison, the unabridged version of Stephen King's The Stand has about 570,000 words. )

Here's a few more completely pointless statistics gathered from the first 700 posts. All of the following lists are displayed in the order of frequency that they appeared on this page (most frequent first)

The 10 most frequently occurring words - accounting for > 20% of total words - the, to, I, and, that, a, of, is, it, in

The 10 most frequently referenced characters are :
Jin (659), Sun (517), Ben (337), Kate (196), Sayid (184), Jack (178), Aaron (170), Hurley (163), Michael (131), Desmond (94)

The next 15 most frequently referenced characters : Locke, Claire, Walt, Juliet, Widmore, Captain Gault, Charlie, Mr. Paik, Sawyer, Ji Yeon, Rousseau, Bernard, Alex, Kevin Johnson, Regina

11 people posted 20 or more times this week (shikotee, JoePike, ilovebenjaminlinusxx, DocH, Clementine, meg, Mr_Naysayer, ealgumby, Cecil Rose, lovelost, vacc)

The 25 posters referenced most frequently (in their own or another's post) : mac, ilovebenjaminlinusxx , JoePike , Clementine, Mr_Naysayer, shikotee, ealgumby, meg, DocH, Cecil, lovelost, vacc, RedNeckMan, Scooby, AlasLongthought, Crispy Seaplanes, En Provence, welh, bcre8ve, Randy, Thundarr the Barbarian , lost4ever, petew, catbarf, The Duf


The Flashback vs Flash Forward debate : After combining permutations such as FF, FF, Flash Back, flashForward etc.. the total occurrence of these terms after 700 posts :
Flashback 212 FlashForward 173


Despite all of the gut-busting humor, this is really a thinking person's blog.
Among the most frequently occurring words over 700 posts were : think, know, why, did, because, how, maybe, which, thought, believe, sure, guess, probably, agree, hope, wrong, explain, perhaps, theory, wonder, obviously, possibly, figure, confused, question, discussion, assumed, confirmed, considered, analysis, debate, clues

Other words that appeared prominently this week :
Island, Time, Panda, Lima, Bong, Towelie, toes, Dragon, scarf, dude, canon, bodies, constant, funny, stupid, genius

#716. Posted by: vacc at March 20, 2008 3:37 PM

Really enjoyed the lists vacc, thanks. Do I need to get a life though?

Naaaaah...it's pretty sweet hanging around here.

It would be pretty cool to see that summarization from now on every Thursday afternoon before the next new episode.

#717. Posted by: JoePike at March 20, 2008 3:52 PM

@716/vacc
The Producers have at times called them 'backstories' which was use a few times in the posts this week. Did you count them?

Thanks for all the stats.

#718. Posted by: JT at March 20, 2008 3:55 PM

@ 709. Posted by: SamFin

"We will end up have reunion's or something.

We can have name tags and everything !"

I suspect when LOST is over the reunion will be held at the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute.

#719. Posted by: welh at March 20, 2008 3:55 PM

I had to sneak in one last post just to give props to VACC for POST #716. AMAZING. You should do that every week at about this time... that should be a "constant." Very interesting compilation of data... useless, but interesting!!!

#720. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at March 20, 2008 3:55 PM

Panda and Smokie the Dragon were packing a bong with Lima beans. Panda turned to Smokie and said, "Dude, got a light?" Smokie, replied, "Hey genius. I'm a friggin' dragon. Of course I got a light." Panda held Smokie's nose to the top of the bowl and inhaled deeply, his white toes turning red. "Puff puff pass," said Smokie.

Coughing loudly, Panda asked, "What's that constant ringing?" Smokie replied, "Don't be stupid. That's great classical music blasting from Towelie's stupid boombox. You never heard Pachelbel's Canon in D Major?" "Funny," said Panda, "I thought it was Ravel's Bolero."

They sat on the beach and watched the sun slowly set into the shimmering depths of the Pacific. "Man, I really got the munchies. How 'bout you?" asked Smokie. "Panda replied, "You betcha. I could scarf an entire Hurley Bird. Boy oh boy, Island time sure seems different when yer stoked."

The two stoned friends ate a delightful repast of rabbit and cereal, drinking boxed wine, and then passed out on the beach, their bodies snuggled together like two spoons in a drawer.

#721. Posted by: Randy at March 20, 2008 3:59 PM

@vacc: I love stats! Seriously, dude, like you don't even know.

You da man.

The last 3 words describe the LB experience fairly well: funny, stupid, genius.

#722. Posted by: Clementine at March 20, 2008 4:04 PM

=========New Theories of the Numbers=========

I still wonder about the numbers and the Valenzetti Equation, which is designed to predict the end of humanity.

Theory #1:
What if 4 8 15 16 23 42 is 4,815,162,342. Based on several web sites, as best as I can figure, the world population would have been around 4.815 billion around March 1985.

So to apply this to Lost, maybe the numbers represent the population level above which the world cannot be sustained. In order to save the world, the Dharma initiative must either:

1. Reduce the world population to 4.815 billion
or
2. Return time to 1985

Put another way, Dharma's goal is to course-correct the world back to a sustainable time or population.

Theory #2:
The Valenzetti Equation could be a version of a Matrix Population Model, which, taking some liberties, models populations based on:

Pop = (A*Sa + I*Si) * Ri *E
where:
A = number of adult females at time t
I = number of immature females at time t
Sa = annual survival of adult females from time t to time t+1
Si = annual survival of immature females from time t to time t+1
Ri = ratio of surviving young females at the end of the breeding season per breeding female
E = rates of emigration/immigration

In theory, the numbers could represent the values in the above equation and the island is an experiment in population management.


Or maybe they're just numbers...

#723. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 20, 2008 4:21 PM

@621/Christine "Incidentally I once knew a guy named Thomas Hicks in college."

That is one long name. Did you refer to him as "Tom" or "Mr. College?"

#724. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 20, 2008 4:36 PM

@667/Alaïs_Longthought "So far as we know, Ji Yeon is the first baby to be conceived on-island & make it all the way to a live birth. If Ben's obsessed w/fertility & pregnancy, it seems to me that he'd be v-e-r-y interested in getting his nasty bug-eyed paws on Ji Yeon."

I was thinking the same thing - which made me wonder if the doctor that was filling in for Sun's doctor was actually a plant?

#725. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 20, 2008 4:45 PM

@716 vacc:

OCD much?

#726. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2008 4:48 PM

-716 vacc: Your 10 most frequently referenced characters

Surely, you did not mean to omit Cindy's Scarf. (And don't even start with "but that's not a character") Have to agree with the others here: Awesome recap. You have just become this blog's Useless But Interesting Information Specialist. Hope to see more of it.

-721 Randy. Wow. You win this week's unofficial Single Posting Puns & References contest.

-621Christine "Incidentally I once knew a guy named Thomas Hicks in college."
-724 bcre8ve

Aha, the Panda strikes again! It's all about the punctuation.

#727. Posted by: lovelost at March 20, 2008 4:52 PM

→ 721. Posted by: Randy
They sat on the beach and watched the sun slowly set into the shimmering depths of the Pacific.
------------
I think Jin, Hurley, Des & Charlie stumbled upon Panda & Dragon snoozing, ripped-off their green, walked-up the beach a bit and finished it off. That's why they were all laughing hysterically at Jin's scary story in Korean, and got panicky during the "dude... a helicopter just crashed in the ocean" moment. And, that's why Mikhail was dashing through the woods, he thought folks were raiding his "special" garden in the jungle.
------------
I hear Panda's contract is under review over at ABC/Disney Domestic. Five-O busted him later that evening for Public Intoxication.

#728. Posted by: DocH at March 20, 2008 4:52 PM

@bcre8ve #725 and Alaïs: re Sun's doctor
I assumed the writer's included a doctor who did not know Sun's celebrity status as One of the Six to more easily justify his lack of reaction to her asking for Jin.

(Hi bcre8ve *waving*)

@Scooby-Dooby-Dude #723: I'm paraphrasing here with no source or references (and I hate when I do that), but the producers have said "we may never know the meaning of the numbers" and they also admitted to incorporating the numbers more extensively into the show only because fans were so interested. I think the actual numbers may not be so important as their role in demonstrating fate or destiny. But having said that, I do like a good number's theory, so keep on keeping on!

#729. Posted by: Clementine at March 20, 2008 4:55 PM

@723 Scooby-Dude "Theory #1:
What if 4 8 15 16 23 42 is 4,815,162,342" I haven't seen the numbers equated with population before.

Here's another theory - what if the numbers represent the date and time that the world will end?
If the numbers are in month, day, hour, minute, year order (using 24 hour military time) then the world will end at 3:16 pm on April 8 2342

#730. Posted by: vacc at March 20, 2008 4:56 PM

If you can't beat 'em, might as well join 'em.

My numbers theory:

The Oceanic Six get off the island on Day 108.

#731. Posted by: Clementine at March 20, 2008 5:06 PM

I haven't watched an episode live since last season. It is exciting, in a way, to have this sort of countdown to when the show starts.

@ En Provence -
Yeah, I'm a night owl. I am in the central time zone, so an hour earlier than the posts show. By the way, I feel like one of the few people that aren't on the East Coast. I guess I will be the delegate from Texas.


Namaste and NOIS

#732. Posted by: Not an Other at March 20, 2008 5:12 PM

729/Clementine "Hi bcre8ve *waving*"

gnivaw em uu

(that's "me waving" back two u)

#733. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 20, 2008 5:14 PM

I think my problem today was too much wiki, not enough worki.

That being said, maybe Regina got sick and jumped off the freighter because she forgot to take her Dharmamine.

#734. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 20, 2008 5:19 PM

WARNING: The heat generated from 700+ posts is contributing to blogal warming!

#735. Posted by: bcre8ve at March 20, 2008 5:28 PM

One must always remember to take the Dharmamine before Blog diving... it does help to counteract the (evil) postings.

.week a once than more presence his with us graced bcre8ve wish I

@mac: What's your plan for after the break with the show moving to 10pm? Will you return to mid-morning postings the next day, because 1:00am recaps might be the death of me (not to mention you!) :)

3 hours 20 minutes and counting...

#736. Posted by: Clementine at March 20, 2008 5:41 PM

My organizing skills have kicked into overdrive and I've put my thinking scarf on. Here’s how I see our FILMFODDER REUNION taking place.

We all arrive at the fancy hotel ballroom. At the registration table, everyone fills out their own name tags. “Hello, my real name is ____ _____”. Then they fill out a second tag with their blog name and deposit that one in a big box or hat (or hat box…maybe a choco-hat). The cocktail hour ensues until everyone has arrived (some partaking more than others..Meg?) (some less..the chaperoned-ILBL).

Then our emcee (hopefully Mac) gives the welcome speech and begins pulling names (not rabbits) out of the hat. As each blog name is called, the person who owns it comes to the stage for his/her 15 seconds of fame. After everyone has been “introduced”, the real party begins.

Lessez les bon tempes roulez!

Ok, I admit. LOST is my life these days.

#737. Posted by: lovelost at March 20, 2008 5:58 PM

4-7 (78) Ji Yeon

Ji Yeon is born
But Jin's name is carved in stone
And Michael is back

#738. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2008 6:00 PM

The Numbers as ASCII Hx Code:

42 = B
23 = #
16 = synchronous idle
15 = negative acknowledge
8 = backspace
4 = end of transmission

#739. Posted by: welh at March 20, 2008 6:00 PM

@737 lovelost proposed:

>... At the registration table, everyone fills out their own name tags. “Hello, my real name is ____ _____”. Then they fill out a second tag with their blog name and deposit that one in a big box or hat (or hat box…maybe a choco-hat).

I thought thus was going to develop into some sort of "guess the blogger" contest.

I'd be the easy one.

#740. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2008 6:03 PM

@683. Posted by: vacc

I don't know what to think of Libby. Could she be a plant? I dunno? Wouldn't that imply that they knew in advance that the plane would crash? With the time travel concept, it is not impossible, but who in their right mind would knowingly risk themselves in a plane crash? (HA HA - Since Libby was in the nut house, I guess she qualifies!)

@690. Posted by: welh

Well thought out! Might even turn out to be right?

For me, I guess it is easier to believe some sort of sensory disruption (or some other Deus Ex Machina explanation), as opposed to physical movement. How do you move such a mass without large disruptions (on and off island)? Is it a floating island then that never anchors itself to the earth?

@692. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

How did the SAT's work out for you?

@701. Posted by: DW

"You win a round trip ticket to Sydney via LAX. Flight number Oceanic 815."

Awesome! I'm not in the middle section of the plane, right?

@705. Posted by: lovelost

"PANDemic"

Urge to kill, rising.....

@710. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

The Simpsons parody of the Kubrick classic was very well done. Loved the use of Grounds-keeper Willie, and the pronunciation gag...

"Anyone ever try to pull a Charlie and try to figure out what the numbers could mean musically?"

Funkytown!

@716. Posted by: vacc

Awesome stats work!
Hey - Is this your subtle way of trying to tell me I've been posting too much?!

Urge to kill, rising.....

@721. Posted by: Randy

Randy - I can just sense that you are a fan of Jay and Silent Bob!

@723. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

Lol - loved your closing - "Or maybe they're just numbers..."

re: Numbers

Child's play. All numbers except the last are but a distraction - the final number is the answer. Now if only we understood the question....

#741. Posted by: shikotee at March 20, 2008 6:12 PM

I thought thus was going to develop into some sort of "guess the blogger" contest.
→ 740. Posted by: Cecil Rose

No doubt there would be a lot of that going around during the happy hour. Maybe even some pari-mutual betting (like we do in golf tournaments).

#742. Posted by: lovelost at March 20, 2008 6:13 PM

@Mr_Naysayer/662
"Ealgumby - you bring the keg"

Waddya mean, "keg?" kegS!

And I infer you might be referred to as MC Chronic ...
although with the possible presence of ILBxx (and other like-minded or otherwise intent on remaining innocent) attendees, you might consider the Jamaican resort approach of having "alternative" and "prude" sections available for such indulgences, or complete lack thereof ...

#743. Posted by: ealgumby at March 20, 2008 6:34 PM

@714 / Clementine.

Oops, I misquoted 'you'. It was SamFin who was talking about being on the same page. I misread your post. Sorry 'bout that. The 'being on same page' remark triggered me to post because each week, the ONE page with review and comments is getting soooooo huge (and takes up more than 1MB when i download it on my mobile while travelling) that i found it funny that so many people are saying stuff on one page. Never mind.

Actually, I don't think I'm gonna make it, reading all this weeks posts. I've been reading a few hours each days now (! - i truly don't get how all of y ou can keep up) and I'm only up to 430-ish. This blog has soooo exploded since a year or two back %-). This is a really cool place for Lost discussion and theories.

Luckily, I'm from the Netherlands, and episode 8 will only be available to me tomorrow evening (through Azurues / bittorrent). So technically I still have an extra day to read up to the current post. I still might make it ;).

Anyways, lots of great theories and I love this blog.

The FF/FB discussion was kind of a non issue for me from the go. I actually paused watching episode 7 when the shopkeeper talked about Year of the Dragon. I have a book about this, so I ran to my bookshelf to get it. Since year of Dragon was in 2000 (and will be in 2012) it was obvious this was the old Jin and thus a flashback.

About the Oceanic 6, I think Aaron is the sixth one. Media don't care about details and who is and who isn't on the original plane. Six people getting back, including a baby means they are the oceanic six (in the media's eyes).

I'm quite interested in whether Locke will get his groove back some day or whether he is doomed. I clearly remember how I used to think he kicked ass. Nowadays I don't really like him that much.

That's it for now. When I've watched an episode, there usually are about 200 blog posts already, and when I've read these, there are many many more. As I don't post before I've read them all, I usually end up not posting at all :(. Maybe I should call myself EternalLurker from now on.

I do love reading all your stories, with ILOVEBEN being a nice addition to this little community :). Keep up the enthousiastic posts you all.

-r-Yawn.

#744. Posted by: r-Yawn at March 20, 2008 6:54 PM

@Clementine/666

"@Mr_Naysayer: I see you have mastered JoePike's double post *around* another poster technique. You are a quick study, Grasshopper."

Hey ... MY Sawyer name is Grasshopper!

"@shikotee: All crazy serial killers on this blog must be identified by an alternate handle when in crazy serial killer mode"

Hmmm ... post 666, and all this serial killer talk ... something we need to read into this?

Actually (odd coincidence), my UNIX UID at work (started at 300, and worked its way up with each new employee) randomly happens to be 666 ... I have had customers comment on the joke of delivering evil software to them ... no, just mine (although not saying I haven't been cursed as if ...).

#745. Posted by: ealgumby at March 20, 2008 6:55 PM

I'd be the easy one.
→ 740. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Oh, yeah...forgot to add...some of you would have to use aliases if you already use your real name here. duh

Many details to be worked out. But it can be done.

#746. Posted by: lovelost at March 20, 2008 6:56 PM

@Shikotee,

Perchance you meant Bluntman & Chronic?

"Well, there must have been a typo. I thought I was playing Clock-Knocker. Everyone tells me it's something different."

#747. Posted by: Randy at March 20, 2008 6:58 PM

@r-Yawn/744
"I'm only up to 430-ish" ...
"Since year of Dragon was in 2000 (and will be in 2012) it was obvious this was the old Jin and thus a flashback."

Thanks for the (unintentional) smile!

Feel completely free to retort when you get that far ...

#748. Posted by: ealgumby at March 20, 2008 7:06 PM

@welh/690

"Faraday's comment that things were getting worse was that the island was moving faster and then more difficult to find.

This explanation also makes the idea of the island location was in the Black Rock journal problematic if the island had been moving until the anchor was installed via the Hatch."

Oh boy, this is a tough one ... I refer to the "enhanced version" comment from "The Constant" when the Kerr metric is mentioned ... this is consistent with some earlier (earlier eps, also epic-long) posts of mine when I commented on the possible physics behind the time-travel ...

Pure theory now, no canon to speak of, but the "drifting" of the island could be a natural perceived result shifting horizon geometry around the wormhole to the island ... the "anchor" wasn't so much a "physical" locking down of the position, as it was a mathematical lock.

Knowing the exact geometry of the warped space around the island could allow one (theoretically) to travel to/from it without time effects ... the time delays are the result of no longer following the "exactly" correct course. Interestingly, the "drifting" of the field around the island could give the perception of motion if lcose enough ... that's my theory.

As an aside, the Dhamra cargo drops could've all been launched at the same time in the past (to minimize cost of such an expedition), sending each load in at a slightly different trajectory to have them arrive at regular intervals in the future.

#749. Posted by: ealgumby at March 20, 2008 7:20 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/703

"just irritated w/their (the writers') messing up w/canonical (never thought I'd need to type that word) information as ealgumby revealed"

Actually, that's not entirely what I intended to show ... after my analysis, I'm firmly in the belief that EVERY prop we see HAS been placed, very carefully, with reason (including the cars and phone, etc.).

Based on the canonical (and isn't that a wonderful word? ... never thought I'd ever use outside my own field) evidence (with adjustments as pointed out by bloggers here), Jin/Sun were most probably married within two years of the 815 flight (exactly when is indeterminate). We also know that Jin/Sun were married shortly after Hurley won the lottery (also not exactly placed, but within two years of 815). Therefore, the FB (if it is), must be absolutely no earlier than 2002, more likely 2003 (IMO).

This would be consistent with the car props, and could be consistent with the phone (if we assume an early version of the new phone was available in East Asia prior ot he US release). This would NOT show an inconsistency between canon and props ... frankly, the later the FB in time (pre-flight), the better as far as that goes (but I must admit the evidence indicates Jin/Sun were married more than one year prior to 815, making the FB as late as 2004 less likely, yet still possible).

I do not discount this possibility, but still believe the "planted" evidence (and I do believe the "significant" props were put there for a reason, with full knowledge of their heritage) points more to a FF w/ Jin/Sun at the hospital simultaneously. The ONLY piece of evidence I have seen that's lead to question this is ILBxx's catch that Jin gave his correct name to the embassador's guard ... still haven't worked that one out ... but still thinking!

I'm intrigued by the possibility that Sun's name on her "ring bag" was wrong (as mentioned a few times earlier ... sorry for lack of credit) ... maybe she was revealed to the world as an O6 member, but NOT Sun? Perhaps the whole headstone thing is a guarded secret? ... perhaps that's why her parents were not there for the birth of their grandson? Perhaps Jin thinks Sun is dead (cause she's using an assumed name [from 815 manifest, but not her] as a member of the O6), and likewise, Sun thinks Jin is dead ... yet neither is true! Wouldn't THAT make for a heart-breaking scene as they both race to the hospital at the same time, barely missing each other?

#750. Posted by: ealgumby at March 20, 2008 7:48 PM

@Clementine/704

I like ... reminds me of Checkers Rap Cat ...
and yet another bunny ref (I'll probably just keep that to myself) ...

#751. Posted by: ealgumby at March 20, 2008 8:00 PM

@ vacc - 716
Nice statistics! We needed that! =]

@ Randy - 721
That was amazing! That is pure creativity and skill. You bring becre8ve's name to life. =]

You may just go on my list for that.

@ Scooby-Dude - 723
Good theories on the numbers. I'm not sure anyone has considered the whole population thing before!
____

Do you think that Ben (aka, the love of MY life) got Annie pregnant, and she died? Then he stalked Juliet... blah blah blah. Maybe he feels guilty that he killed her by not getting her off the island. Maybe she didn't die in the purge. Maybe this was before the purge. Maybe this was after the purge.

Maybe I'm stretching it too much.

Maybe, maybe, MAYBE.
______

Guess what's on in 45 minutes??? (from the time that I wrote this, maybe not posted)
______

@ vacc - 730
"If the numbers are in month, day, hour, minute, year order (using 24 hour military time) then the world will end at 3:16 pm on April 8 2342"

... at least we'll all be dead by then anyway =]

@ lovelost - 737
That's actually an interesting idea. Kudos, kudos.

Guessing would also be interesting.

I just realized Cecil Rose said that already.

P.S. -- LOST. has always been my life =] (even before it existed, I just didn't know it yet)

@ shikotee - 741
"How did the SAT's work out for you?"

Not as well as I thought they would. I considered crying, but I don't remember the last time I cried. I'm taking the ACT's in April... hopefully I do well on them. Though I will take the SAT's 2 more times. However, I did well for a first time. Some people would consider it well forever. My friend doesn't think I should take them again, but I am an over-achiever.

Thanks for asking =]

@ r-Yawn - 744
"I do love reading all your stories, with ILOVEBEN being a nice addition to this little community :)."

Thank you! =]

#752. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 20, 2008 8:28 PM

Where can we go to start a campaign that, when the series is finished, they recut the series DVD to play it from beginning to end in real time, re-ordering all teh scenes so there are no flash-forwards or -backs, but just switching from one character to another from beginning to end?

#753. Posted by: tpull at March 20, 2008 9:21 PM

→ 705. lovelost: I think you get the award for the most LOST-related puns packed into a post. Who's in charge of coming up w/the award names?

→ 716. vacc: Congratulations! You've just gotten the job of Mac's Blog Statistician. Salary: Unlimited supply of choco-hats (Apollo brand, of course).

→ 719. welh: Re "I suspect when LOST is over the reunion will be held at the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute."

I was going to propose meeting at the Chicken Shack.

→ 734. Scooby-Dude: Re "I think my problem today was too much wiki, not enough worki."

I can relate...this month wasn't a good time to take on a big freelance project!

→ 750. ealgumby: Re canonical info screw-ups:

Specifically I was referring to you pointing out that if Sun was born in 1980, she'd be graduating from college in 2002, & it would be unlikely that she & Jin were married before 2003. This would contradict one of Sun's lines to Jin from an earlier episode that she had been told what to do for four years, which implies that they had been married at least that long. (Jin had been grumbling that he didn't like Sun telling him what to do.)

In any case, I just realized something else—dragons are also very special in the Chinese culture & thus would have been very appropriate as a gift to the Chinese ambassador as well, so the whole fuss over the gift having to be a panda & nothing else was meaningless anyway.

As far as Jin & Sun both being alive but thinking the other is dead, I think that would only work if neither of them were IDed as members of the O6. Even if Jin were undercover, so to speak, in the Paik organization, if he saw Sun on TV he would recognize her, no matter what name she was using.

#754. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 20, 2008 10:54 PM

Great Post Mr MAC...

I miss You Artie!

#755. Posted by: Grandma Caprio at March 20, 2008 11:11 PM

Am i the last commenter before the new blog? yay!

#756. Posted by: diane klingon at March 20, 2008 11:16 PM

Last post!

#757. Posted by: Jenny Talia at March 20, 2008 11:17 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/754
"This would contradict one of Sun's lines to Jin from an earlier episode that she had been told what to do for four years"

Epi please? I do not recall this; the only "discussion" I recall about them being married/together more than a year was pointed out by vacc/507, when he mentioned they had been arguing about getting pregnant for more than a year ... whether pre/post-marriage not determined, but ...

I think you'll be very hard-pressed to find a "canon" example, from transcript/review (not just "I recall"), where ANYTHING they say has been discussed four years prior, in the show.

#758. Posted by: ealgumby at March 20, 2008 11:39 PM

@tpull #753: If you start a petition, let me know. I think that's an awesome idea!

#759. Posted by: Clementine at March 20, 2008 11:46 PM

@ealgumby #758:

From The Hunting Party transcript:

JIN [subtitled]: Not yet. Honey... I don't like being told what to do.
SUN [subtitled]: Being told what to do was my life for four years... I didn't like it much either.
JIN [subtitled]: Right. I don't suppose you did. [He moves closer and puts his arm around her.]

#760. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 21, 2008 12:17 AM

@Alaïs_Longthought/760

Sorry ... this refers to her COLLEGE years (implied forced by her dad, but miserable)!

Not to time with Jin! She does NOT meet Jin until after college, until after being set up with Jae Lee ... this is confirmed by her mom's comment that she spent "four years" in college in "... And Found" and implied she was getting old for marriage, prompting her to meet Jae for the first time.

Okay, so she spent "four years" someplace, confirmed to be college in "And Found" and she also did not mmet Jin until after that ... are you suggesting she spent another "four years" with Jin after that? That would place her at 26, beyond the 815 flight ...

No, sorry, the "four year" comment you are referring to was about her college years, not to time with Jin ...

#761. Posted by: ealgumby at March 21, 2008 1:50 AM

@ealgumby #761: I don't think so. If she's referring to being told what to do by her dad, why would it be just four years & not her entire life?

I think, in the context of her conversation w/Jin (he's unhappy that Sun told him not to go w/the party that's gone looking for Michael), Sun's referring to being told what to do by Jin. After all, to that point in the series (partway through S2), we've seen Jin being controlling & dominant w/Sun—he's not yet become a changed man.

My take on this is that they have been married for four years, which would then be consistent w/a marriage date of 2000 & a Jin FB to 2000, the Year of the Dragon. As I mentioned in a post above, while I think the show's producers are very careful in their placement of clues, I don't think that everything in the sets' backgrounds is chosen as carefully, & the trick for us as viewers is to figure out which is which. Furthermore, in the instance of this episode, filming was done under the pressure of the oncoming writers' strike, which could certainly result in less care & attention being paid to the props & set.

My beef w/the writers in messing up canonical info was choosing the wrong birthdate for Sun...if indeed the date of March 1980 on the tombstone is her birthdate; we're assuming that. And though it is a logical assumption, at least to our Western thought, in Korean culture there may be some significant event in people's lives that occurs around the time they start school. But it seems the simplest explanation is that the writers of this episode neglected to think about exactly how old Sun needed to be to account for four years of college & four years of marriage & chose a date four years too late.

However, overall, does it really matter whether the FB took place in 2000 or 2002/03/04? We as viewers were led to think that both sets of scenes (w/Jin & w/Sun) were FFs, & the "big reveal" at the end of the episode was that Jin's scenes were a FB, Sun's were a FF, & Jin was either dead or trapped on the island. Unless there's something more to the Mysterious Panda-Nappers & Cell Phone Crushers, the whole set-up seems to have been nothing more than a way to keep us viewers in the dark until the end of the episode.

#762. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 21, 2008 11:30 AM

RNMiL...cap it maccy!

#763. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 25, 2008 9:41 AM

Why isn't Aaron included as one of the Oceanic 6? Didn't folks know about him... I don't recall it exactly, but I'm pretty sure Kate was described as being "a mother" when she was on the stand. That would mean people would know about Aaron, and thus make him one of the six?

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