The Lost Blog

Key Points from "The Shape of Things to Come"

Season 4, Episode 9
Episode Air Date: 04/24/08

Point 1
Ben

Sayid
Those "Lost" writers were pent up! "The Shape of Things to Come" is the most high octane action episode in series history, featuring flying bullets, dead time-shifted freighter doctors, exploding Other condos, dead adopted daughters, castaway-on-castaway gunplay, and just for flavor, a coordinated smokey attack.

And interestingly enough -- and perhaps a testament to just how good this show really is -- the ample action paled next to the One Big Plot Development at the close of the show: namely, we learn that the history between Benjamin Linus and Charles Widmore goes back much, much further than we've been led to believe ... and the future certainly won't be marked by Sunday barbecues on the Widmore estate.

So let's dip into this Ben-Widmore stuff, which comes to use via Ben's first solo future flash.

Ben, it would seem, has a Nightcrawler-esque ability to teleport or time weave or worm hole or ... something. In the early going, Ben suddenly "appears" in the Sahara desert wearing a Dharma parka. When confronted by two gun-toting men on horeseback, he uses his Other superpowers -- and that telescoping stick thing he brandished on Sawyer back in the bear cages -- to lay the smack down on both dudes with ease. From there, he heads off to his favorite Tunisian hotel, where he checks in as "preferred guest" Dean Moriarty. (Sidenote: Ben gets a curious look from the hotel's desk attendant when he asks her to confirm that the date is Oct. 24, 2005 ... more on this in Key Point 4).

Ben's Tunisian escapade is cut short when he discovers -- by way of a TV news report -- that Sayid has lost his lady-love, Nadia.

This Sayid business is insanely tragic. We learn that shortly after he rejoined society as an Oceanic Sixer, he married Nadia in Los Angeles. But their epic love story gets prematurely snipped when Nadia is murdered (we think) in a hit-and-run orchestrated by one of Widmore's henchmen (again, we think). Anywho, Ben drops in on Nadia's funeral in Iraq, where he's "discovered" by Sayid. And this is where we see how Ben recruits Sayid to be his assassin.

But here's the kicker: Ben's manipulation is so precise -- so profound -- he actually makes it seem like Sayid is the one who volunteers to do Ben's dirty work. Ben plays Sayid like a grief-stricken marionette, and by the end of the episode -- when Sayid kills Nadia's murderer -- Ben has Sayid tucked firmly in his Member's Only Dharma parka.

Now for the good stuff. In the final moments, a dapper Ben sneaks in to Charles Widmore's London penthouse and pays his nemesis a midnight visit. Their conversation is full of contextual cues and wee bits of information that will undoubtedly come into focus in later episodes. The following are the few clues I was able to note (if I missed any, please chime in through the comments):

  • Ben, sneering with buggy hate, says that both he and Widmore know Ben can't just haul off and kill Charles, even though he blames Widmore for Alex's murder (yup, she's dead ... more on this in Key Point 2).
  • Direct retribution isn't an option (we don't know why ... yet), but Ben can exact a little daughter-for-daughter revenge. His primary motivation for his late-night visit is to tell Chuckie that his beloved daughter, Penelope (Desmond's One True Love), is on Ben's hit list. After watching Des and Penelope brilliantly reconnect in "The Constant," I hope Ben fails in this mission. (I'm an unabashed softie for the Des-Penny story.)
  • Widmore says Ben will never find Penny. Uh, does that mean she's already dead? Or, is she holed up with Des on another geographically ambiguous tropical island?
  • Widmore says "I know who you are ... what you are. I know that everything you have you took from me."

    I have no idea what's going on with this bit of dialogue. "What," exactly, is Ben? Is he somehow supernatural (those eyes certainly don't come from the mortal plane)? And what did Ben actually take from Widmore?

  • Ben taunts Widmore by saying he'll never find the island. Widmore claims that the island is, and always will be, his.

    My initial reaction is to assume Widmore's island claim is associated with Dharma and Hanso, but could both of those be fronts for something more sinister and far reaching? Widmore doesn't appear to be a humanitarian (or an islandtarian, for that matter), so I doubt he's targeting the island for his long-desired tropical polar bear sanctuary -- so what is, and was, his angle?

Moving on ...

Point 2
Ben

Locke

Sawyer

Hurley

Sawyer

Alex

Miles
Team Locke has a rough week. A squadron of freighter mercenaries -- led by Keamy, the big dude seen in previous episodes -- infiltrates the barracks and riddles the compound with bullets and explosions. Remarkably, the only castaway victims are background players (in one unintentionally hilarious span, three separate "socks" are picked off).

Unfortunately for Ben and the growing Legion of Young Rousseau admirers (you know who you are -- cradle robbers!), Alex is executed by Keamy when Ben refuses to quietly surrender himself. It's a shocking moment. More importantly, it's a critical moment in Ben's character arc. The distant, coldly calculating manipulator has now added revenge to his list of motivations.

Ben's vengeance is our gain, because in the moments after Alex is killed, Ben scampers into his condo panic room and cracks open an old stone door. Seconds after he returns, the ground shakes and we hear the familiar mechanical sound of Ol Smokey whirring to life.

Ben summons Smokey (or turns it on ... I'm not sure which). The angry dust cloud clubs and bludgeons and "Ekoizes" the mercenaries, which provides an opening for Locke, Sawyer, Claire, Aaron, Hurley and Miles to escape into the jungle. Ben stays behind to weep over Alex's body, which is notable because it's one of the few times we've seen an honest emotion from Ben (the only other one I can recall is when he briefly snipes at Juliet after showing her Godwin's corpse -- but that was a far different type of emotion).

Later, Ben rejoins the battle-weary Team Locke, but the reunion is short lived. Ben and Locke start talking about Jacob and his cabin, and this is when Sawyer officially checks out. He's okay with Dharma wine and leisurely afternoons playing Risk, but this Jacob mumbo-jumbo is too much for a down-home meat-and-potatoes con man to take. He forms the Team Sawyer splinter group and announces his intention to bring Claire, Hurley and anyone else back to the beach camp.

But there's just one little problem. Locke and Ben need Hurley to help them find the cabin because he's the last person who actually saw it. Locke draws his gun. Sawyer draws his. Both puff their chests and look mean, but Hurley puts an end to the alpha-dog chest fest by volunteering to go with Locke and Ben to Jacob's love shack.

So, Sawyer, Claire, Aaron and Miles begin the trek back to the beach while The Jacobins set out for the cabin. And that's that.

Point 3
Jack

Kate

Juliet

Faraday
The beach camp experiences four significant events in this episode:
  1. Dr. Ray, the freighter medical guy, washes up dead on the beach. The cause of death appears to be the deep slit gashed across Doc Ray's jugular. Floating face-down in a tropical ocean probably didn't help, either.

    But the Mysterious Case of Dr. Ray takes an even more mysterious turn late in the episode when the freighter crew confirms (we think) that their version of Dr. Ray is still alive and well and presumably tending to the continued outbreaks of extreme cabin fever overrunning Capt. Gault's freighter crew. Uhhhh ...

  2. Jack is getting sick. He claims it's a stomach bug, but his pale skin and bulging eyes reveal the tell-tale signs of Benjimitus. Next week's preview suggests Jack takes a turn for the worse, so it'll be interesting to see how the castaways function when their leader goes down (I'm guessing they'll achieve island utopia within three hours).
  3. Bernard knows Morse code. He uses this ability to unmask Danny Faraday as a lying liar who mumbles his lying lies.
  4. And finally ... Jack chokes the truth out of Danny. He confirms -- between gasps of air -- that the freighter folk have no intention of rescuing the castaways. Awkward!
Point 4
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "Don't stand there looking at me with those horrible eyes of yours." -- Charles Widmore to Ben, speaking for us all.
  • Second Best Line: "Australia's the key to the whole game!" -- Hurley, playing Risk with Sawyer and Locke.
  • After Alex is murdered, a shell-shocked Ben declares, "He changed the rules." He, I'm assuming, is Charles Widmore. But what are the rules? Who came up with them? How long have they been in place? Is there an actual rule book, or does a Board of Governors meet tri-annually to discuss rule grievances and suggested alterations?
  • There were two key time-rift developments in this episode: First, Ray the doctor washes up dead on the beach, but a Morse code message from the freighter folk suggests that Doc Ray is alive and well in freighter time. Doc Ray = Hiro Nakamura.

    Second, during Ben's future flash he confirms that the date is Oct. 24, 2005. The fact that he needed to confirm the date suggests Ben jumped along the timeline (or he's got horrible short-term memory). But what's the importance of 10/24/05? In the "Lost" universe, this is approximately 13 months after the crash of Oceanic 815, but is there any other significance?

  • Alex's shocking death doesn't bode well for a Rousseau resurrection. The Widmore mercenaries were firing real bullets from real guns, and if the "Lost" writers were okay executing Ben's daughter, I can't see why they'd have any qualms offing Crazy Danielle Rousseau.
  • In a move sure to please Dwight Shrute, Ben keeps a loaded shotgun in his piano bench. It's the perfect solution for Widmore mercenary disputes and violence-minded therapists gunning for the island's homewrecker fertility specialist.
  • I rarely quibble over realism -- especially when smoke monsters are involved -- but I find it amazing that Sawyer managed to dodge a hail of bullets and Claire survived the exploding condo. Somewhere, Dr. Arzt is scoffing at the continued preferential treatment enjoyed by the popular kids.

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"Something Nice Back Home" -- Juliet and Kate must put aside their petty differences to tend to Jack's declining health. Airs Thursday, May 1, 2008 at 10 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

First!

#1. Posted by: James at April 25, 2008 1:08 AM

Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!

Not Alex!

Anyone but Alex!

Uber-fantastic episode!

#2. Posted by: shikotee at April 25, 2008 1:14 AM

I know its only been a couple of weeks but its great to have you back Mac (that wasn't supposed to rhyme, seriously.)

I was afraid of a possible let-down after the writer's strike, but after the first couple of minutes I realized that there wouldn't be.

Great episode!

><>

#3. Posted by: Fish at April 25, 2008 1:18 AM

ANTNT? Anyone Notice the Name Tag?

An island is not all that Ben has stolen. It appears he has also stolen our favorite man of many names' Darka (Dharma parka.) The name on the Darka is Halliwax - as in Edgar Halliwax AKA Mark Wickmund AKA Marvin Candle.

#4. Posted by: bcre8ve at April 25, 2008 1:22 AM

LOL! "He claims it's a stomach bug, but his pale skin and bulging eyes reveal the tell-tale signs of Benjimitus."

#5. Posted by: James at April 25, 2008 1:24 AM

re: Widmore says "I know who you are ... what you are. I know that everything you have you took from me."

I took this as a reference to the purge, and the fact that Ben killed his own father.

Awesome review Mac!

I totally knew they were playing Risk!

I think Rousseau will still be alive, so that she can avenge the death of her daughter...

Alex..... just as I was beginning to appreciate your potential for hotness!

This episode was worth the wait!

#6. Posted by: shikotee at April 25, 2008 1:31 AM

I continue to enjoy the writer's ability to provide information/"answers" all the while leaving the story more open than ever. One example of the subtleness of this art is the bullet wound that Ben is sporting when he "jumps" to the desert while wearing a heavy coat.

Answered: Ben can travel to other lands and assumably other times

Questions: How does he travel? Why has he been shot and by whom? Where did he jump from that he needed a coat?

What fun. What a ride.

***** Mild Spoiler *****

I was hoping that Smokey had made a crispy Keamy, but alas, judging by next week's promo, it is not so.

***** End Spoiler *****

#7. Posted by: bcre8ve at April 25, 2008 1:32 AM

Leave it to Ben to have a secret room in his secret room.

#8. Posted by: bcre8ve at April 25, 2008 1:33 AM

Lastly.....

Woot-woop!

I totally knew that Nadia would be involved in Sayid's future, and that Ben would use this to get Sayid. I wonder if Ben was behind Nadia's death? He makes it seem like he wasn't, but you just can't trust that guy!

#9. Posted by: shikotee at April 25, 2008 1:36 AM

Ben is the bug-eyed ninja.

#10. Posted by: Janaki at April 25, 2008 1:37 AM

@6/shikotee

"re: Widmore says "I know who you are ... what you are. I know that everything you have you took from me."

I took this as a reference to the purge, and the fact that Ben killed his own father."

I had the same thought and would add that he is also saying, "You may be a player now, but I know where you came from, who you were and your humble beginings. You don't deserve a place with the big boys."

#11. Posted by: bcre8ve at April 25, 2008 1:39 AM

Great review as always, mac! Loved your last point about "the popular kids" always surviving somehow.

One proofreader note: Point 1, 4th bullet, 2nd para.: I think "aren't" is missing from between "certainly" & "from."

Totally agree w/the best two lines. I was hoping Widmore would say "buggy eyes," but I suppose a veddy upper-crust English gent wouldn't use a term like that.

I think, from what Juliet says in the preview for next week, that Jack has appendicitis (which I can pat myself on the back for calling when I saw Jack clutching at his lower right abdomen).

I'm curious as to where Bernard learned Morse code. And Danny's a pretty awful liar, isn't he?

Alex's death is the one instance we've seen in the entire show of Ben miscalculating. So far his mourning over Alex is the only occasion where I've liked him (sorry, ilovebenjaminlinusxx).

Sayid said that he spent eight years searching for Nadia. If we can conclude that he found her when he returned as part of the Oceanic 6, in 2005, then he would have been searching since 1996 or 1997. Did he see her after their encounter during the Gulf War in 1991? I don't remember that he did, but then wouldn't he have been searching for her since then?

Yes, Ben played Sayid like Glenn Gould on the piano. So I'm curious—was it really a Widmore-ite that killed Nadia? The guy Ben was following didn't seem to recognize Ben—could he have been working for Ben w/o ever meeting him? Why would Widmore target Sayid anyway? (I'm assuming Sayid's mental facilities are MIA due to grief, otherwise he might be asking the same question.) It seems more likely that Ben had Nadia murdered to get Sayid to work for him.

I thought it was interesting that when Ben returned from the secret room in the secret room in the secret room that he was quite dirty. Is Smokie kept in a dungeon doghouse? Or was that soot all over Ben? Is the ash trail around Jacob's cabin Smokie's "leavings"? Does the ash trail go along w/the cabin when it hops around? Or was it a form of a leash that Jacob managed to slip, & that's why the cabin is now able to move?

Sawyer refused to abandon Claire when Ben announced they had to fortify his cabin, then called her "sweetheart." Is this a clue for future developments—that Sawyer's abandoning his corner of the Juliet- Jack-Kate-Sawyer quadrilateral? Normally his nicknames for people have a good bit more of an edge to them.

If the title of this episode is true, then the cast budget for LOST may be going down way fast...

#12. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 25, 2008 1:50 AM

First, let me say "Best LOST episode EVER"!

Second, I have never given mac a congrats in the thirty plus episodes I have hovered here, but, WOW. You really covered all of the base tonight, like never before. Maybe it is just the new (later) hour of broadcast. I was fully expecting an AM release of the review... with half the effort.

Lastly, I can only add a few tiny things.
--------------
Ben reaffirmed what he said before. That basically - yeah - I don’t know what Smokie is - he NEVER said he did not know how to use OR summon Smokie… he has simply said (twice) he doesn’t know what Smokie is.
--------------
Ben dashed to his super secret closet. Ben was all neat and clean going in to the closet after playing the piano, but when he came out, he looked like he had just changed an engine or transmission. Just what does it take to crank-up the Smokester?
--------------
Plopping in the middle of Tunisia, Ben was like everyone else that jolts awake suddenly on the show, asleep - then eyes wide open. That has to be travel through the ‘portal’. He even got a little nauseous right afterward - a symptom described to Juliet before her voyage to the island.
--------------
It’s hard to believe that Ben left his daughter out to dry like that. I think he is what he is. He knew that if he went out and surrendered, it would be “Game Over”. I think the ’she’s adopted’ ploy was his last ditch effort - it was the only thing the mercenaries might bite on… It was his only tactic! If they capture him… no one can win - ever.
--------------
Widmore & Linus came off as a couple of old world mafioso. Ben is the new punk that wants to toss the old boss. Everything Ben had was stolen, from Widmore. “Changing the rules” is important, in mobs, like “honor among thieves”. One old world “rule” - you never go after a rivals’ family… business is business - you do battle there, and family is sacred… off-limits. When Widmore (if Ben is right) whacked Alex, then he changed the rules and Penny became fair game.

#13. Posted by: DocH at April 25, 2008 1:59 AM

PS - Glad you managed to post tonight Mac!

Wasn't sure if you would, now that the start time has been bumped an hour.

Can't wait to watch this one a second time, so as to get a better feeling of what I think. I liked the episode, and felt Ben was awesome (ilovexx must have been giddy).

In retrospect, tough love with how Ben handled Alex being kept hostage. I thought he might go softy for her, but he held his ground. Horrible for her to hear the things that he said about her before she died, as I doubt they were his true feelings. It was his last desperate mind game, hoping this might save her.

The writers are cruel! They know that many of us love the Penny-Desmond connection, and they have given us another reason to dislike Ben.

My prediction of the future is that some if not all O6's will eventually return to the island. Maybe this will also involve Penny? Maybe she will make it to the island? And just as Ben is about to kill her, Rousseau will stop him and kill Ben, blaming him for the loss of her daughter Alex.....

#14. Posted by: shikotee at April 25, 2008 2:02 AM

They're trying to do too much with too few episodes. It hasn't been that long since Ben shot Locked and left him for dead in a ditch, and now they're portraying him as a hero.

#15. Posted by: Joe at April 25, 2008 2:12 AM

It hasn't been that long since Ben shot Locke and left him for dead in a ditch.
→ 15. Posted by: Joe
I just checked my calendar and it has been 353 days since "TMBTC" where Locke was shot. Its addictive. This year the writers stepped us up from coke to crack. I need my fix. I'll take what they give me without bitching about the PC rules on the island, or the timeline.

#16. Posted by: MorBid0 at April 25, 2008 2:28 AM

Good review Mac. It helps to see it neatly organized.

Anybody else but me think that Ben looked a lot younger than he usually does? That maybe the flash scenes were flashbacks? And though it was a past flashback , he went to the future? Like maybe after he found Sayid was one of the losties and he could use him.

I also think that the Ben Widmore conversation was in the past. (He really looked young - no gray hair)

Widmore NOW knows where the island is but he didn't until Desmond turned the key. So maybe Ben DID once have a daughter of his own (And Annie's?)and she was killed by Widmore? Seeing Alex - the adopted daughter die- was a shock because it was the second time he lost a "daughter" and that conversation was the beginning of the fight over the island.

#17. Posted by: berkyo at April 25, 2008 2:29 AM

re:→ 17(18). Posted by: berkyo
Anybody else but me think that Ben looked a lot younger than he usually does? That maybe the flash scenes were flashbacks?

I thought he looked better too, and considered what you said, but I think that we have seen Ben in "crisis mode" since OA815 fell from the sky 3 island months ago. He was in high stress mode with the crash, he had spinal surgery, he was losing folks left and right, he has been beaten severely several times, new forces are attacking, taking his loved ones - Jacob has been ignoring him.
I think that Ben in Widmore land, looking decent, is simply that Ben has had a few months to rest and recuperate and put his revenge plan together. That and practice Dharmarate (Dharma-karate) and Jacob-jitsu.
[;^)

#18. Posted by: DocH at April 25, 2008 2:45 AM

Best Line: Sawyer: "Take it easy, Chicken Little".

#19. Posted by: richardalpert at April 25, 2008 3:46 AM

Great synopsis. Love your style!

I am enjoying the "Indiana" Ben stuff...and noticed that in the Widmore/Linus confrontation his hair was obviously dyed darker (and styled, finally!) It's clearly a flash forward, IMHO.

Keep up the good work!

#20. Posted by: pearl at April 25, 2008 4:39 AM

What intrigued me were the symbols on the secret room that lead to smokey control room.

Those seemed to be similar to the ones at the room where Desmond / Locke punched in the sequence to the computer.

What is the connection there?

#21. Posted by: Edmund Widmore at April 25, 2008 7:05 AM

WOW!!

My poor Alex. We had so little time together. I was so hoping that that bullit would bounce off your skull.

That little smile that Ben had after recruiting Sayid made me think that he planned the whole murder of Sayids wife. What a player.

Smokey was out with a vengence. I imagine most of the ships security force were barbaqued by smokey last night. That would sure put a crimp in their plans to take the island by force.

Bye bye Alex :(

#22. Posted by: Glen at April 25, 2008 7:05 AM

A Few Things. The start of the episode with RISK and the several references to a game such as "he changed the rules" has to mean something, and Hurley's "Australia is the key to the whole game" has to be a clue. Last, it is now obvious there is time travel so anyone dead isn't really totally dead.

#23. Posted by: Ross at April 25, 2008 7:32 AM

How many languages was Ben trying to communicate with when he met up with the horseback riders in Tunisia? Anyone? And what language were the riders using that Ben did not understand? And a nomination for clever line if not Best:

Warrior: "Surrender!?!"
Ben "Oh, so you do speak English?"
before he shoots him

So Ben is far more talented that we have seen before. Plus he has a photographic memory apparently.

#24. Posted by: Chad Brown at April 25, 2008 7:42 AM

Ben totally grosed me out by tying the sweaty dirty smelly headscarf of a sweaty dirty smelly nomad around his gunwound.

That is SO going to infect!

In Professional Wrestling terms I would say they are turning Ben 'face' after being a 'heel' most of the time. And they are making him more badass than Christian Bale.

#25. Posted by: SnakeJake at April 25, 2008 8:01 AM

Haven't read the recap yet - just had to say that my head officially exploded 4 times last night - WHAT AN EP - I LUV THIS SHOW ! ! !

#26. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at April 25, 2008 8:06 AM

I am under the impression that some of "the rules" between Widmore and Linux is that no family members must be touched (rule that was broken) and that quite probably, all dirty work must be done by someone else. Widmore had the Boat Mercenaries, Linus just recruited Sayid and I wouldn't be surprised if he somehow orchestrated Nadia's demise (giving him information about who Nadia, so he could kill her).

#27. Posted by: danny at April 25, 2008 8:23 AM

I am finding it increasingly hard to maintain interest in a show with so many twists & turns and contrived insertions. I mean time shifts/travel, magical island healing properties, unexplained inhabitants, electromagnetic pulse generating gizmos, smokey monster on a leash, "I see dead people" reappearances, vans that start up after years of rotting, beer that somehow is drinkable after 10 plus years in a jungle, etc, etc, etc.!
Sayid is an elite trained republican army commando and a Mr. Fix-it and yet he gullibly falls for Ben's explanation of his wife's murder. You know, I use to drive on Santa Monica and La Brea maybe I killed your wife Sayid! I am afraid that for the average LOST viewer that all of this is just more than they can keep up with or process. Sorry guys, but most casual viewers don't post on blogs where they hurry to be "first". There is limit to how much BS one can accumulate.

#28. Posted by: gables79 at April 25, 2008 8:24 AM

No. 28, Gables79

I find more answers are coming out now then ever before. Try to keep up.

If you don't use that brain matter, you're going to lose it.

#29. Posted by: Glen at April 25, 2008 8:37 AM

Great Recap Mac.

Apparently Ben can jump through space-time and channel the talents of Jason Bourne at will.

My head must have exploded at least 4 times during last nights ep. Thank God for duct tape.

#30. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at April 25, 2008 8:39 AM

Also - did anyone notice the name on the DHARMA parka that Ben was wearing when he "appeared" in the Tunisian desert. It said HALLIWAX, as in Dr. Halliwax from the Orchid training video ! ! !

#31. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at April 25, 2008 8:44 AM

Great review, as always. I thought the best line, however, was after Ben told Widmore's hit man that he wants him to deliver a message to Charles Widmore. The hit man asks, "What message?" and is then immediately killed by Sayid. Ben looks down at the dead guy and says,"That should do it."

Or something to that effect.

#32. Posted by: NotPennysBoat at April 25, 2008 8:47 AM

Sawyer yells and kicks and screams and pounds on the door and he can't get them to open the door. Miles rings the door bell. Fun E

#33. Posted by: lostsox at April 25, 2008 8:49 AM

@ bcre8ve: SAT question of the week

Ben is to Alex as Dean Wormer is to Delta House....why?

A: Both Alex and Delta House, when in trouble, were placed in Double Secret Probation Room.

**Rim Shot**

#34. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at April 25, 2008 8:54 AM

Hi all,
Is anyone thinking that there are two Bens? I had seen this idea posted on other sites a while ago.

I mean, does the Ben we normally see on the island seem like the same guy that is kicking butt in the Saraha? Could a twin or alternate Ben of some sort also explain how he looks younger, better, etc. when talking to Widmore?

Also, didn't Sayid say to Ben when he first saw him at Nadia's funeral: "Why are you following me?!? Oh, it's you." (or something to that effect), as if he suddenly realized that it wasn't who he initially thought it was? Does that make sense?

#35. Posted by: SteveW at April 25, 2008 9:11 AM

Wow! Mac, you sure put a lot of things into perspective with your awesome reviews. Things happened so fast last night that I think I've gone cross-eyed.

Confirmed: Alex is dead. Rest in peace, we just got to know you...

Confirmed also: Ben Linus is one bad-a-double-snakes! I, for one, can't wait to see how this all shakes out in a couple of seasons. Lost is the greatest show I've followed in a long long time, and sometimes (Gables79) you just have to suspend the reality of belief and just enjoy the ride...

#36. Posted by: Three Men and a Baby (I counted Hugo twice...) at April 25, 2008 9:27 AM

Did anyone else notice what Miles said when Claire told everyone she'd be alright? It was quick, but he said, "I wouldn't say that."

That pretty much confirmed for me that the writers are planning on killing Claire sometime before the end of the season.

#37. Posted by: Michelle at April 25, 2008 9:29 AM

Wow this episode was great.
I was thinking 'no he won't shoot Alex' and then he did. The cut shots were pretty cool to me. It reminded me of Donnie Darko.

I wondered though why Sawyer, Locke and Hurley weren't concerned when Alex was shot. It was interesting to contrast their personalities before the guns to now.

Ben's character was kind of a bamf (bad a** mo-fo) in this episode. Surprising but enjoyable. But if he kills Penny I'll be upset because I love the Penny/Desmond pairing.

#38. Posted by: silhouette at April 25, 2008 9:31 AM

Hotel receptionist....she visits Hurley in the mental hospital. Right??

#39. Posted by: john at April 25, 2008 9:38 AM

last night's episode was one of the best. it was DEEP!! loved every minute of it.

i posted a comment a few episodes back about ben and widmore being old nemesis and was not surprised at all that they new each other when it was revealed last night.

i am on the team that thinks ben is responsible for nadia's death. his smug a$$ smirk when he turned away from sayid was the give away.

post #28-gables79, tell all those "casual Viewers" to hang tough, they just might be surprised.......

peace&love to all :)

#40. Posted by: tiffani at April 25, 2008 9:43 AM

@Alias_Longthought: First sorry for assuming you were a "he" in the "Who's going to sub for Mac contest". Secondly, regarding your statement "Alex's death is the one instance we've seen in the entire show of Ben miscalculating.", one must not forget that he thought Juliet would do what he said last season when he sent her to the Losties camp and as we know she betrayed him big time in the end.

Some random thoughts:

I just want to mention that, whereas (mostly) all of us thought that Ben purposely sent Rousseau and Alex's boyfriend to certain death it appears now that he truly thought he was sending them all to safety and was as surprised as anyone to find Alex in the clutches of the freighter folk.

When Ben "time jumped" from wherever/whenever he was to the desert, he was cowered and shivering. That would lead one to believe, along with the telltale parka, that he was in a very cold place under attack. Perhaps he was at/near the Arctic station that was listening for signals from the island?

I agree with Chad Brown about the "Oh, so you do speak English?" line. So coolly and pleasantly said, then "whack!". Boy, does Ben know how to shift gears.

SteveW - I was thinking you might well have been onto something regarding "two Bens". Only thing is that Ben moved locations/time with his outfits intact. That means he's not jumping mentally but physically.

Ok, that's what I've got at this moment. More soon.

#41. Posted by: LostedIt at April 25, 2008 9:46 AM

Just some points I have to make:

1. When John, James, and Hurley were playing Risk and the telephone started ringing, I started laughing. Really. It was just so odd.

2. And I thought Alex was smart!! When Ben started telling Keamy that 'she means nothing to me', Alex started bawling, and I was like, "You stupid girl, he's using the oldest trick to free a hostage known to mankind!" Unfortunately for Ben and Alex, however, that trick rarely works.

3. So... apparently Jack is getting sick. In the previews for next week, Juliet says that his appendix ruptures, so, yes, he will most certaintly die without proper medical care. But we know he won't, because he has to get his a** off the island first. Huh.

4. Was this the first time we saw Ben cry? I think it was. Whoopie, I love character development! I was SO glad they didn't start playing that 'Life and Death' theme again, though. (For those of you who bought the soundtrack for the first season, you'll know what I mean.) I was getting sick of hearing that every time someone kicked the bucket.

5. So, Ben has SOME control over Smokey, whether he will admit it or not. I was very proud. Smokey at his finest. Cool scene; reminded me very much of the thunderstorm we got over here the night before.

6. How the hell does Bernard know Morse code? That seemed really really weird to me... I mean, isn't he a dentist? Huh. On, and on a sort of related note, I really wanted to see Jack and Daniel duke it out (finally), but with an ongoing case of appendicitis, I don't think Jack was too up for it.

7. When the doctor dude washed up on shore, I almost screamed, because for a minute it looked like John! Or maybe that was just me. I dunno. He was bald, so they might've kinda looked the same. And, when Daniel said it was the doctor from the freighter, it didn't click that it was Ray until I came onto this site the next morning!

8. When Ben disappeared down the secret passageway, came back up, and then the ground started shaking, was anyone else reminded of the reinactment of the 815 crash? You know, with Juliet and the book club and all that in the beginning of Season Three? I was like, "Oh my God, another plane's gonna crash!" And I was seriously wigging out. But the Smokey thing was just as good.

#42. Posted by: Kate at April 25, 2008 9:46 AM

Did anyone notice that when Ben and Widmore were talking that they both had half of their face in the shadows. Almost exactly half. Like it was done on purpose. Don't remember if it was opposite halves. I wonder if that means anything. "Everything you have you took from me" etc. Somehow Ben and Widmore are eerily connected.

#43. Posted by: s at April 25, 2008 9:48 AM

Biggest (new!) mystery to come out of last night's episode?

Why did Ben simply just kill Widmore in his bedroom right then and there? He surely could have. And conversely, why did Keamy and Co. not gun down Ben? They easily could have shot him through the windown or simply blown up the whole house with him in it. Taking him alive is apparently a key instruction from Widmore to his goons. Lots to ponder.

can't wait till next week! (But already dreading the EIGHT MONTH dry spell we will have to endure from end of May until end of January. Mercy!)

#44. Posted by: GatorGal at April 25, 2008 9:49 AM

I may be in the minority, but I'm loving Ben more and more. And I really wasn't all that upset that Alex died. Her character wasn't doing that much for the show anyway. When Ben was saying that Alex was just a pawn, I told my husband that Ben was really saying that to himself because he knew they were going to kill her. I just love how complex his character is getting. It's an awesome story line.

In another Lost discussion, I saw someone else say that Ben and Widmore seem to be playing some kind of freaky game for the super-rich. It's an interesting thought. I thought it was interesting that Ben said, "He's changed the rules" instead of "He broke the rules".

I thought for sure that the line of the night would have been when Ben said "That'll do it" after Sayid shot the Widmore guy six or seven times.

#45. Posted by: notsoeasy at April 25, 2008 9:55 AM

At least I went out with a bang and not a spider bite!

Did anyone else laugh and think of the Naked Gun TV episode where they try to figure out how the murder happened by continually shooting people thereby creating a pile of bodies? Poor redshirts!

@12: I believe Bernard said he learned to shoot in the Army(?) so maybe Jack assumed he learned Morse Code.

Could it be since the Smoke Monster knows the fence keeps it away and they had to shut it down that Ben just shook something to alert it to the fact that it could come on in? Ben did tell everyone to run for the trees knowing that Smokey would attack the men closest to the fence.

#46. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 25, 2008 9:56 AM

Top Ten Connections to October 24
(i.e. things that make you go hmmm...)

1. Oct. 24 is .....wait for it...Take Back Your Time Day. No, I'm not kidding. Seriously.

2. Robert Kuhn, the creator of Batman, the original Dark Knight, was born on this date in 1915.

3. The Concorde made its last commerical flight on 10.24.03

4. In 1593 on this date, a Spanish soldier named Gil Perez allegedly transported himself. (whaa!)

5. The first transcontinental telegraph line across the US was completed on 10.24.1861

6. On this date in 1911, Orville Wright set the world flight record in a glider off Kitty Hawk, NC

7. Harry Houdini gave his last performance on 10.24.1926

8. The first photo of earth taken from outer space was shot on this date in 1946

9. The UN was founded on this date in 1945. Oct. 24 is also United Nations Day.

10. 10.24.1929 was known as "Black Thursday" due to the stock market crash.

How's that for a Friday morning history lesson?

#47. Posted by: GatorGal at April 25, 2008 10:05 AM

Glen:
I appreciate the encouragement but one most use their "brain matter" for a greater purpose. TV is where "brain matter" goes for a break. I just keep getting this "X-Files" feeling. That show kept pushing the limits to the point where it became silly and lost its viewership. Here's hoping the LOST writers take note.

#48. Posted by: gables79 at April 25, 2008 10:06 AM

In keeping with all the game references from this episode, Ben tells Keamy that Alex doesn't matter because she is just a "pawn."

#49. Posted by: maries at April 25, 2008 10:22 AM

Where is Rose?

#50. Posted by: marlisa at April 25, 2008 10:23 AM

Thanks Mac; Great review.
I saw Jack holding his back, it could be a kidney infection rather than appendicitis. Appendicitis: surgery and all better. Kidney nephritis...bad juju.

I too think Ben might have had Nadia killed; hit and run, same MO as used with Juliet's ex.

I could hear Ben's heart break when that bad guy executed Alex.

With Ben appearing in the Sahara it seems teleporting is one of his abilities. Not just the uncontrolled consciousness skipping of Daniel & Desmond of skipping into another him in an another time, but a controlled "now you see him, now you don't" big magic.
And it appears the doctor did it too unless the freighter tots just hadn't discovered he was missing yet.

Bernard was an Eagle Scout or a Signal Corp military veteran.

Widmore thinks that island is his; he wants it for evil purposes. Ben's job (should he choose to accept it) is to keep the island from falling into the hands of the Doers of Evil.

Ben, Walt, Locke are people who have an innate ability or an immunity to the consequences or something which permits them to access or manipulate the powers of the island?

Hurley consistantly proves himself to be The Cowardly Lion. He is courageous; he is selfless, he acts with integrity as we see by his refusal to take orders which affront his sense of right and wrong. He just doesn't recognize what an extraordinarily good and brave man he is. I'm beginning to think that Jacob will eventually choose humble Hurley to be the island's GateKeeper.

#51. Posted by: undaunted at April 25, 2008 10:35 AM

Lots of splinter groups in current Lost time.

1)Locke,Ben and hurley on Jacob hunt.
2)James,Claire,Aaron and Miles heading back to the beach.
3) Beach group including Jack, Kate,Juliet,Sun, Jin,Bernard, Rose,Daniel, Charlotte and assorted red shirts for cannon fodder.
4)The missing others. Probably at the temple.
5)Widmore goons on island.
6)widmore goons on frieghter.
7)Sayid,Desmond and michael on freighter.
8)Jeff Faheys character...allegience unknown, but unlikely a widmore thug.
Off island:
Charles Widmore,
Penny,
Walt living with grandma,
Abbedon

Any one else?

#52. Posted by: debbie at April 25, 2008 10:36 AM

@27: Could it be Widmore accused Ben of killing Alex because in his attempt to 'disown' Alex he unwittingly signed her death warrant? BEN changed the rules with his reverse psychology.

#53. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 25, 2008 10:41 AM

Excellent job, Mac. As always.
Did anyone else notice Sawyer's over-protective-ness (I know, I know that's not a word) of Hurley?? And Claire?? Since when does he risk his own life for anyone (except for Freckles) Good lord is he deeeeelish.
One of the best episodes yet.

#54. Posted by: JAWS at April 25, 2008 11:14 AM

So I didn't read anything yet because I had school and I am in photoshop right now.... but because I am in photoshop right now... I am going to read it now.

BUT before I start (few things):
1. TOTALLY WORTH the wait.
2. Alex died. I bet all of you who loved her so much are quite upset.
3. This episode confirmed my name even more! =]

I am very happy. Now I must read.

By the way -- Good to have everyone back!!!

#55. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 25, 2008 11:30 AM

Oh and it seems like the island can move its location?

I have so much to say... ok I really need to read it now.

#56. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 25, 2008 11:37 AM

GRAA, Mac.

Ben either orchestrated Nadia's death or used it to his advantage. Either way, it doesn't matter. Ben is very much an Ends Justify The Means kind of guy.

Alex getting whacked - didn't see that coming. And the "changing the rules" line - very cosa nostra.

Smoky coming out of the hills like a freight train...how bitchin' cool was that? Ben either controls Smoky or they've come to a mutual understanding.

Ben's hidden Double Secret Probation room...now that's better than all the hatches put together.

I knew that Claire wasn't dead...yet. The sneakers peeking out from under the wreckage were very Wizard of Oz. But Claire-bear's time fast approacheth...

Ben & Widmore...faces half in dark, half in light. Very Star Trek. Tells me that both of them are good and both of them are evil. Only difference Ben "...has Australia, the key to the whole game." Maybe those two are playing a real-world game of Risk for slightly higher stakes...say...the future of humanity?

#57. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 25, 2008 11:39 AM

Daniel = Desmond's "Constant". Maybe Widmore = Ben's "Constant?" Just a thought. Also, on a random note, is Sawyer crushing on Hurley these days or what?

#58. Posted by: Three Men and a Baby...(I counted Hugo twice) at April 25, 2008 11:41 AM

So do you think the "Temple" might be code for an island G spot which can teleport people to the desert or arctic and back again? Might explain why the rest of the others haven;t been seen and why they are supposedly safe.

#59. Posted by: noworkgetsdonetoday at April 25, 2008 11:52 AM

Best line: Ding-dong (by the doorbell). Cracked me right up.

A theory:
Claire's house exploded into nothingness and yet Claire survived with very little injury. What if the healing properties of the island saved her (for some reason), but she is now unable to leave the island without dying. That could possibly explain why she would give up Aaron to Kate, and why Miles commented "I wouldn't say that" when Claire said she was alright. Maybe Miles can see her "aura" of death or injury that's being masked by the island.

Whoever said Rousseau will return to revenge Alex, I agree! And she will be one angry motha!

How ironic (convenient, suspicious?) that Freighter Doc washes up dead, just when Jack might need surgery. Can Juliet perform an appendectomy? And will she have a sudden accident impairing her vision or motor skills, requiring Kate to step in and perform the surgery with Juliet's guidance using Locke's hunting knife set? (Sorry, got a little carried away there.) At first, I thought Jack's pill-popping was just the beginning of his future addiction.

I'm surprised Ben isn't as protective of Aaron as is he of Locke (keeping him near as he "must" survive, because he is "special"). Guess he doesn't need Aaron at the moment, since he can't help find the cabin. I'm pretty sure Aaron knows where the cabin is and may be drooling in code. I wonder if Bernard could interpret? ;)

As of a few days ago, Penny was in her flat in London, decorating for Christmas and answering Des' call. Not exactly in hiding, if Ben wants to kill her. Maybe he's waiting for Penny to come for Des. That would be convenient.

@Janaki/#10: "bug-eyed ninja" = BEN

@Alaïs/#12: regarding how long Sayid was searching for Nadia: Maybe he could only start searching for her after being discharged from the Republican Guard? We don't know when that was, do we? Good question, and that timeline confused me also.

Can't read anymore now. Must work. GRRR!

#60. Posted by: Clementine at April 25, 2008 12:00 PM

#58 - Posted by Three Men and a Baby...(I counted Hugo twice) - Maybe Widmore = Ben's "Constant?"

Outstanding idea. Wish I'd thought of it.

Makes complete and utter sense. Therefore it must be wrong. ;-)

#61. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 25, 2008 12:06 PM

# 61 ransomjackson: Makes complete and utter sense. Therefore it must be wrong. ;-)

Are you related to my wife? She ALWAYS says that... lol.

#62. Posted by: Three Men and a baby (I counted Hugo twice...) at April 25, 2008 12:17 PM

I liked the tease of Claire's death. Many people speculating that she has to be dead for Kate to have Aaron off-island. So it opens with Hurley taking care of the baby, Claire's house is destroyed, and after she's found, we see she has a head injury. But doesn't die this ep. Fun.

@Ross/23 - I think the whole game metaphor was just fun wordplay for this ep. And why is Australia key? That's where 815 took off from - the show started there.

@whoever posted the mafioso bit (sorry, I didn't write it down) - I don't think it's true that they don't whack family. I'm sure I've seen movies where they attack everyone. Can't think of any examples right now.

#63. Posted by: hurling at April 25, 2008 12:34 PM

Also, on "changing the rules": If Ben was assuming the rules wouldn't allow them to kill Alex, why would they have threatened to? And if being his daughter made her safe, why did he deny her? The denial would make her fair game - the reverse of his reverse psychology. I think he blew that worse than he realized.

#64. Posted by: hurling at April 25, 2008 12:38 PM

Two Bens are better than one? Hmmm. I can't help but consider this possibility, especially since the producers have said that the Orchid video is canon and vital to the show.

Also re Ben: I've said it before - the Henry Gale character was not originally intended to be a regular member of the cast. So....Darlton changed their OWN rules! Much to our delight, of course.

And what about those superpowers? Did Ben get them from the Island? Or is this the alter-ego (Rabbit #15) Ben? Is this what Widmore knows?

My head hurts. Must be Benjimitus.

Finally, another shout to Vacc and his USA Today selection. How timely that Smokey was featured last night!

#65. Posted by: lovelost at April 25, 2008 12:47 PM

→ 63. Posted by: hurling
@Ross/23 - I think the whole game metaphor was just fun wordplay for this ep. And why is Australia key? That's where 815 took off from - the show started there.

@ ...the mafioso bit... - I don't think it's true that they don't whack family. I'm sure I've seen movies where they attack everyone. Can't think of any examples right now.
- - - -
Australia was not only where OA815 took off from - it was where Hurley and the whole "numbers" thing dropped into place, and, where we learned about "special places" on the planet that heal... when Rose sought a cure for cancer.

The mafioso (real old-school) blurb - rival mobs tended to leave the "women folk" alone. Plus, if someone in the family needed whacking... the family usually took care of it themselves - think 'Fredo' from the Godfather saga.

#66. Posted by: DocH at April 25, 2008 12:47 PM

@clementine

"As of a few days ago, Penny was in her flat in London, decorating for Christmas and answering Des' call. Not exactly in hiding, if Ben wants to kill her. Maybe he's waiting for Penny to come for Des. That would be convenient."

Don't forget that Ben Linus went to a different date (Oct 24, 2005) than the present island date. By then, everyone who is going ashore has gone ashore so to speak and, additionally, Penny may very well be safely tucked away somewhere.

Regarding Ben Linus and Charles Widmore, I agree that the "constant" thing might be the reason behind why Ben says why he cannot kill Charles. Two other ideas spring to mind:
1) Ben and Charles are tied in some way, two halves of one whole so to speak. Others in this thread have already mentioned the same in some way shape or form.
2) Ben knows that the only time someone from/of the island can be killed is when the island "allows" it to happen. Since Ben is directly in tune with the island in many ways perhaps he also has the ability to know when the island will "allow" someone to die.

#67. Posted by: LostedIt at April 25, 2008 12:57 PM

re 31
Good Eyes. I tried to make that out but couldn't. Have we seen Halliwax in a parka somewhere?????

#68. Posted by: berkyo at April 25, 2008 1:01 PM

I love this show, but Gables is right on. The show dumps too much information on viewers without tying up loose ends. I miss the subtleties of the previous seasons. The show has taken a turn for the worse this season and is starting to resemble ALIAS too much. I am giving the writers a pass because of the strike that led to a shortened schedule, but I fear that LOST is in danger of jumping the shark.

This is what I liked:

--Ben is never wrong. He miscalculates. Too bad for Alex.

--Smokey is back finally and we still don't know what the thing is.

--Widmore and Ben as nemesis is great.
ben: you changed the rules
wid: no you did
ben: you killed alex
wid: no you killed alex
ben: i kill penny
ben/wid: we can't kill each other

previous episodes:
micheal: i can't die of the island
mr. friendly: that's right

We have seen that once you leave the island you can't die because the island will not let them and I think this includes murder/suicide. Hurley, Jack, Micheal, Des, Sayid, etc.. can not be killed or die of the island and I think this includes Widmore and Ben because both have been on the island,

--@53/TreeManBaby: Excellent theory: Widmore is Ben's constant of island. This theory need further explanation to see how it works. Who was Widmore constant when he was on the island? How does Desmond become Faraday's constant? Who are Oceanic 6 constants? HELP......

--Finally. What is the significance of Tunisia? Is that where they found the polar bear? This has to be a special place like Temple.

#69. Posted by: TruRuan at April 25, 2008 1:05 PM

Couple of observations:
1.) Now we know why Ben couldn't go to the mainland for his back surgery. Widmore would most assuredly have him killed during the surgery, or the chances of the surgery being successful away from the Island would be greatly reduced.

2.) We know from past episodes that the Smoke monster could not penetrate the sonic security fence. In this episode, the fence was clearly down since Alex keyed in the code, but it appeared that Smoky came from somewhere within the complex, not external. Not sure about that one, but we know the Smoke monster can be summoned to Otherville while the fence is down.

3.) The mercenaries knew about the fence, and knew how to get it turned off. Important Island knowledge that someone had to have given them. The Dharma Architect?

4.) Ben wearing Arctic cold gear when appearing in the Sahara. Hmmm, I think the two dudes at the Observation post are dead, which also probably explains Ben's flesh wound when waking up in Tunisia.

5.) We now know why Ben considers himself to be one of the 'Good Guys'. In the Widmore-Linus War, Ben's paradigm is the 'good' one.

6.) There seemed to be a huge missed plot opportunity with post war Iraq. Not to mention the logistics of sending Nadia's body back to Tikrit in 2005. I was expecting to see Richard Alpert show up at some point, and there may be more storyline coming in this locale, but to head to Iraq for Ben to tell Sayid a lie and manipulate him, was a bit extreme, when the same could have happened in LA after the 'car accident'. Something more is 'up' here.

#70. Posted by: Neal Mindflood at April 25, 2008 1:12 PM

re 54

I noticed that too. He's almost the "Jack" of the spin off group. Taking care pf everyone. I guess since he got his dad off his back he's free to be himself.

#71. Posted by: berkyo at April 25, 2008 1:15 PM

@ Gables 79

I really don't want a fulfilling TV experience, or some state of ultimate zen. I just want an hour of interesting TV. Sure, it is interesting to debate over what will happen next, but to overanalyze a show to the state of anger is too much for me. I sometimes do question their decisions in the show (WTF Jin?!), but I try to stand back enough to enjoy it.

Truth is, it's a show that can lead to some interesting conversation and debate with friends. To me, it is nothing more.

Of course, when the series finally comes along, I will be glued to my TV like a rabid fanboy. I can't wait to find out that it was all the Autistic Dog's dream.

#72. Posted by: Nick Ambrose at April 25, 2008 1:26 PM

@48. Posted by: gables79

re: "TV is where "brain matter" goes for a break."

Are you serious? The majority of channels are filled with fodder that you can veg out to. Lost is refreshing, as it actually challenges the viewer to remember and think. Our culture is already obsessed with lowering the bar - I don't mind the hamster spinning the wheel faster in my head!

@51. Posted by: undaunted

re: "With Ben appearing in the Sahara it seems teleporting is one of his abilities."

I don't think he actually has an ability to teleport on his own - I think this will have something to do with the functionality of the Orchid station or the Temple.

@55. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

LoL!!! Saw that coming!

@70. Posted by: Neal Mindflood

"it appeared that Smoky came from somewhere within the complex"

Not certain if that is the case. Don't we just see him attacking in the jungle? I think he came from the outside...

"The mercenaries knew about the fence"

I think this further shows that Widmore was involved with the Dharma Initiative. As they built the place, Widmore would know about the fence.

One last thought...

A shame that Miles is not joining Locke, Ben, and Hurley to find Jacob's cabin. Would be interesting to see how the ghost whisperer would interpret things!

#73. Posted by: shikotee at April 25, 2008 1:29 PM

Thanks for the Heroes nod, Mac.

My main issues with this ep were that Keamy's sharpshooters could pick off some of the castaways with single shots yet Sawyer somehow eluded them.

And the missile/bomb launched at Claire's house? It burns the whole thing down but Claire is not only alive but has barely a scratch? Even there, Sawyer scoops her up and runs to the house with nary a bullet in sight...

#74. Posted by: Connie at April 25, 2008 1:36 PM

@73

TV isn't a stimulant at all. Watching images rapidly go past your eyes does not help the brain. As you watch, you mostly "veg out" as you simply try and enter these images and audio into your brain. It is a brain DRAIN.

However, the real stimulant is the conversations you have with friends and family when the show is NOT running. This is where the true intelligence comes from, not the TV itself.

#75. Posted by: Nick Ambrose at April 25, 2008 1:41 PM

Is it such a stretch to believe Ben had Nadia hit by a vehicle, leading Sayid into Ben's service...similar to Juliet's husband getting hit by a bus, leading her into Ben's service.

@#60 Clementine - like the Claire and Miles theory make sense.

#76. Posted by: CC at April 25, 2008 1:47 PM

→ 73. Posted by: shikotee
A shame that Miles is not joining Locke, Ben, and Hurley to find Jacob's cabin. Would be interesting to see how the ghost whisperer would interpret things!
- - - -
Totally agree! I am disappointed Miles is not aimed at Jacob. Then I thought - for a good reason? Like Locke & Ben both think that Miles would better serve the things that - "have to happen" - on the beach with the Losties, Freighter Doc's and OA6 rescue sequence/timeline. Miles has lots of smarts on all of those forces and as far as we know, still has a multi-million dollar agreement with Ben. And who knows, maybe they thought that Jacob may tell Miles EXACTLY what is going on, and Miles would start betraying everyone left & right.

#77. Posted by: DocH at April 25, 2008 1:51 PM

Gables79, No. 48

You have a good point that the show seems to stretch the limits of sanity, however I still find it the only show that keeps my attention week after week. So many shows these days are carbon copies of each other with very little creative input.

Lost does push the limits, but for me they do it a most entertaining way, week after week, and from what it looks like, we ain't seen nothing yet.

#78. Posted by: Glen at April 25, 2008 2:06 PM

Ben's failure to even ATEMPT killing Widmore speaks to something greater than faith in the island's anti-death capabilities (a la Michael). He should at least have tried to put a bullet in him considering the circumstances, but it seemed like there was something stronger compelling him not to. I'm more of the opinion right now that Ben and Widmore are "connected" on some level, and I want to know more...

#79. Posted by: MadamI'mAdam at April 25, 2008 2:29 PM

@74. Posted by: Connie

re: Keamy's sharpshooters, Sawyer, Claire

Yeah - it did seem a little fishy that Sawyer and Claire made it. I guess we are meant to take into consideration that the island determines when it is your time to go, and that it could have been somehow protecting them?

@75. Posted by: Nick Ambrose

re: TV isn't a stimulant at all

Noooooooooooooo! And to think I have dedicated all this time under a false premise! ;)

But seriously - Naturally, watching tv is a one sided experience - some would even argue a form of escapism from the realities of the world.

My point is that Lost is a soffisticated
and often intelligent show - which is quite surprising for something that is mainstream and popular amongst the many. If offers much more meat on the bones, albeit that not everyone is capable of perceiving/remembering this.

I hear what you are saying - this blog for instance is a great medium for stimulation after the fact. The stimulation exists - for all the people to come here and enjoy this fine analysis and discussion - because of the quality and depth of the show. If the show was more like any of the other clones out there, I certainly would not be wasting my time with it, or here on this blog!

@77. Posted by: DocH

re: Miles and Jacob

I just assumed it was the writers way of avoiding giving us too much info just yet. ;)


#80. Posted by: shikotee at April 25, 2008 2:29 PM

Glen:

I agree with you that LOST is the best thing going on TV right now. All the more why I would hate to see it fall away in quality.

Gables

#81. Posted by: gables79 at April 25, 2008 2:30 PM

When Widmore says he knows "what" Ben is, he is referring to Ben as a "monster." Widmore is as ruthless as Ben, so why would he call Ben a monster unless it was personal.

Ben claims Widmore changed the rules (of engagement) when he had his "adopted" daughter killed - - - inferring that family members were off-limits in war for control of the island.

Widmore has contempt for Penelope's choice of Desmond, a person with little ambition or drive to succeed or commit to anything; a lower class than Widmore's status in society. He has lived through this situation before . . .

Ben is the "monster" who killed Emily, his mother, according to his father, Roger Linus, and his grandfather, Charles Widmore. Emily was Widmore's daughter. Emily married a low class workman like Penelope is about to.

This would explain why Ben is apparently wealthy, and why he would not kill his grandfather (blood relatives are safe) who knows about the powers of the island.

#82. Posted by: welh at April 25, 2008 2:36 PM

I love the noise that Smokey makes. Sounds like when you get a receipt from a NYC cab.

#83. Posted by: Lost is Found at April 25, 2008 2:37 PM

"socks"?

I thought we called these guys "red-shirts".

o-----------------

When Claire's condo exploded while Hurley had Aaron in a different location, my wife and I both said "So that's whayt happened to Claire", but apparently there's some other
explanation for why Aaron gets offf the island buut she doesn't.

o-----------------

#4 bcre8ve asked:

>Anyone Notice the Name Tag?

Good eyes - no I didn't. Thanks.

o-----------------

@12 Alaïs_Longthought thought out loud that:

>I'm curious as to where Bernard learned Morse code.

I'm guessing either ham radio or former Navy signalman.

o-----------------

@16 MorBid0 calculated:

>>It hasn't been that long since Ben shot Locke and left him for dead in a ditch.
>>15. Posted by: Joe

>I just checked my calendar and it has been 353 days since "TMBTC" where Locke was shot.

I think he was talking about 'not that long' in narrative time.

Ben shoots Locke on day 90 (Dec 20, 2004) (Lostpedia)

"The Shape of Things to Come" takes place on Day 97 (Dec 27, 2004), only a week later and

Locke and Ben are allies, if not bosom buddies.

o-----------------

@17 berkyo....

I think you're over-thinking, here.

o-----------------

@24 Chad Brown asked:

>How many languages was Ben trying to communicate with when he met up with the horseback riders in Tunisia? Anyone? And what language were the riders using that Ben did not
understand?

I think I heard Ben using Arabic as one of his query languages, so I'm guessing the riders were speaking Berber.

o-----------------

@27 danny speculated:

>I am under the impression that some of "the rules" between Widmore and Linux (sic) is that no family members must be touched (rule that was broken) and that quite probably, all dirty
work must be done by someone else.

Refuting this is the fact that Ben took the tack of specifically saying Alex WASN'T a family member in the hopes of saving her,which seems to indicate that Alex WASN'T going to
be protected by family status.

o-----------------

For thos interested, here's a link to google maps for Santa Monica and La Brea in Los Angeles. Click on the "Street View" and expand to full screen to see a panaramic view of
the neighborhgood. As far as I can see, the intersection does not have red-light enforcement cameras.

http://tinyurl.com/59ffzz

o-----------------

#43 s asked:

>4. Was this the first time we saw Ben cry? I think it was.

I seem to recall the line "I am not a bad person!" delivered with sort of a whining cry under interrogation when he was a captive in the hatch.

> On, and on a sort of related note, I really wanted to see Jack and Daniel duke it out (finally), but with an ongoing case of appendicitis, I don't think Jack was too up for it.

Daniel doesn't seem to me to be the sort that would, or could, duke it out with anyone.

And all of his answers seem to be reluctantly pulled out of him as if he's very conflicted about his part in what's going on.

o-----------------

GatorGal:

What's your source for the Orville Wright/glider item? (Oct 24).


I'm interested because that seems a little late in the day (1911) for Orville to still be messing around with
gliders, and I don't recall anything like that from the biography of the Wrightts I read.

o-----------------

@49 maries said:

>In keeping with all the game references from this episode, Ben tells Keamy that Alex doesn't matter because she is just a "pawn."

For a fantastic "just a pawn" line, read John Brunner's "Squares of the City".

o-----------------

@50 marlisa asked.

>Where is Rose?

Here I am.

o-----------------

@58 Three Men and a Baby...(I counted Hugo twice) speculated:

>Daniel = Desmond's "Constant". Maybe Widmore = Ben's "Constant?"

But Daniel ISN'T Desmond's constant. Penny Widmore is. Although some have specualted that Desmond is DANIEL'S constant.

o-----------------

@60 Clementine said:

>As of a few days ago, Penny was in her flat in London, decorating for Christmas and

answering Des' call. Not exactly in hiding, if Ben wants to kill her. Maybe he's waiting

for Penny to come for Des. That would be convenient.

But that was Christmas, 2004. The Ben/Widmore scene takes place some time after 10/24/05,

10 months later, plenty of time for penny to have been stashed.


o-----------------

@63 hurling said:

>@whoever posted the mafioso bit (sorry, I didn't write it down) - I don't think it's true

that they don't whack family. I'm sure I've seen movies where they attack everyone. Can't

think of any examples right now.

The whole Sopranos saga? Every Godfather movie?


o-----------------

@64 hurling said:

>Also, on "changing the rules": If Ben was assuming the rules wouldn't allow them to kill

Alex, why would they have threatened to? And if being his daughter made her safe, why did

he deny her? The denial would make her fair game - the reverse of his reverse psychology. I

think he blew that worse than he realized.

The presumption of ben's denying Alex was that somehow this would protect her, as if, absent some specific reason to kill her (leverage over Ben), the mercenaries have no reason
to do so.

But he's also previously stated that the mercenaries will kill EVERYBODY (Every living person) on the island (related or non-related) once they have him(Ben), which would
seem to argue that the ONLY protection for her or anyone else would be to withhold the one

motivator the invaders have - their desire to capture Ben.

So it seems to me that the only strategy that could have worked would be for Ben to hold a

gun to his own head, and say "If you kill, her I will kill myself."

(Nasty mind that I have though, I can think of other tacks the mercenaries might have

taken, depending only on their degree of ruthlessness.)

o-----------------

@75 Nick Ambrose asserted:

>TV isn't a stimulant at all. Watching images rapidly go past your eyes does not help the brain. As you watch, you mostly "veg out" as you simply try and enter these images and audio into your brain. It is a brain DRAIN.

Begging your pardon, I beg to differ. Inside the normal broadcast wasteland of shows, I find both "Lost" and "House" stimulating to a high degree. I also enjoy "Survivor", at a
more relaxed pace. And enjoy chatting about them afterwards as well.

o-----------------

@77 DocH speculated:

>Miles has lots of smarts on all of those forces and as far as we know, still has a multi-million dollar agreement with Ben.

I believe it's a bit late for Miles to be telling anyone "Ben's not here."

o-----------------

#84. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 25, 2008 2:41 PM

@Cecil Rose: Darlton use the phrase "socks" to describe the background players. Essentially, it's the "Lost" edition of a Red Shirt.

#85. Posted by: mac at April 25, 2008 2:49 PM

As the father of a teenage daughter, I have to say Alex's murder and Ben's real grief actually brought me to tears... I've never felt more sympathetic toward Ben, but I'm sure that won't last long. Excellent episode all around.

#86. Posted by: Robert at April 25, 2008 2:50 PM

Regarding the time travel / portal that takes Ben to Tunisia -

A few episodes ago (the background episode for the four new characters), the biologist lady was in Tunisia and they discovered Polar Bears with the Dharma logos. A portal would explain how those Polar Bears (and Ben) were able to make it there.

Another stellar review, Mac

#87. Posted by: dknight1111 at April 25, 2008 2:51 PM

@mac:

As in "sock-puppets"?

-----------

@all

Most chilling reaction last night:

"Oh, nooooooooooooo! Not Alex!"

Second most:

"Oh, nooooooooooooo! Not Penny!"

#88. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 25, 2008 2:53 PM

@Cecil: Yup. That's what it's short for.

#89. Posted by: mac at April 25, 2008 2:54 PM

4-9 (80) The Shape of Things to Come

Invaders advance,
Alex, alas, Ben, in shock,
Smokey to rescue.

#90. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 25, 2008 2:56 PM

→ 84. Posted by: Cecil Rose
I believe it's a bit late for Miles to be telling anyone "Ben's not here."
- - - -
Cuz that would be impossible, as everyone on the freighter already knows. Not what I am suggesting. Ben just can't be 'captured'. And with the assault team dead, dying or doomed, Miles may still be on the payroll, and, as an accomplished liar, may only have relay to the freighter, once comm is back up, that Ben died during the assault, or Smokey killed Ben and assault team or Ben 'disappeared'. Seems like they set us up early and often that the only thing that motivates Miles, is money. I say he is going to stay true to character.

#91. Posted by: DocH at April 25, 2008 2:59 PM

@ 35 Posted by: SteveW at April 25, 2008 9:11 AM
“Also, didn't Sayid say to Ben when he first saw him at Nadia's funeral: "Why are you following me?!? Oh, it's you." (or something to that effect), as if he suddenly realized that it wasn't who he initially thought it was? Does that make sense?”

When Sayid says “Why are you following me?!?”, I took it as a frustrated exclamation aimed at what he thought was a paparrazi (sp?)/reporter. Just before the funeral we see the reporters trying to question him in his grief on the news broadcast Ben saw. The he recognizes Ben…

#92. Posted by: Kristine at April 25, 2008 3:01 PM

Did anyone notice the "Bat" Phone? It didn't have a dial to dial out with. It was only a incoming phone. Cool phone.

#93. Posted by: Lost is Found at April 25, 2008 3:05 PM

@93. Posted by: Lost is Found

re: "Did anyone notice the "Bat" Phone?"

Good catch!

Totally. Who answered again - was it Sawyer? I was totally expecting him to pick up and say "Yes Commissioner"!

Curious - have we ever seen that phone in the background before? I don't recall ever seeing it.

#94. Posted by: shikotee at April 25, 2008 3:11 PM

Hurley, Sawyer, Locke
Playing Risk when the phone rings
We better ask Ben

Playing piano,
Ben's frightened, Code 14J!
Circle the wagons!

Poor murdered Alex.
Now we'll never really know
If she was pregnant.

Smoky is pissed off.
Ben woke him from sound slumber
To do his bidding.

Jack takes pills for pain
Must be appendicitis
Cindy's scarf won't help.

Sayid's Nadia
Killed by Linus or Widmore?
Either way she's dead.

Vincent o Vincent,
Like a golden-haired banshee
Your bark heralds death.

#95. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 25, 2008 3:24 PM

Great episode! I can't really explain it, but the conversation at the end between ben and widmore to me indicated that they're either twins (good and evil) or the same person (stuck in different timezones) or something like that....

The first thing is the shadow over their faces. They're both just half a face (kind a like the nba playoff promo's)

ben says: we both know I cannot kill you. You cannot kill yourself.

Widmore says: everything you have you took from me. Yes, because they're somehow the same person/twins.

I think it has something to do with the dead doctor being at two places at the same time. What if ben and widmore were the same person but somehow they split up at a very young age. Time on the island is slower so Ben is younger.

I have to think about it some more, but I think something's up....

#96. Posted by: Soeperfriek at April 25, 2008 3:29 PM

So I didn't have enough time to reply in photoshop today... BUT now I'm home and now I have time.

Ben really does love Alex... you can tell from all the pictures in his house, and the way he cried... there's no way that he doesn't consider her "his daughter"... I do not believe there is another that Charles Widmore killed.

Someone said something about starting to like Ben -- BEN IS MINE (and half meg's). Please don't make this an unrealistic rectangleish thing. Meg and I won, you lost.

That whole secret room in the secret room thing was awesome. Considering the way it looked... Maybe the room itself has secret passageways to places, or to teleport them.

@ Clementine - 60
I LAUGHED SOO HARD with the whole door bell thing!!! It was soooo funny!!!

Is it just me or does Sawyer have a VERY SOFT side? He seems to care a lot for Claire and Aaron, and A LOT for Hurley. It's kind of cute.

This episode made Ben look like another Jason Bourne. Mmm... Maybe he is?

Or like something in Paycheck, get the job done, erase memory... no actually not... More like in Alias when Sydney randomly ended up in Hong Kong and she didn't remember the last 2 years... Maybe somehow someone got Ben there. Eh, probably not that either.

If there are two Ben's... Then I can have one, and Meg can have one. =]
... But I call the better one!

So I was thinking... Maybe Ben wasn't ever planning on "killing" Penny... Maybe he just wants to put her on the island, and she'll conveniently end up with Desmond over there, and he won't be a murderer. But since Charles can never find the island, it would be "like" she was dead.

Maybe the island is getting "angry" with all the visitors? That's why the time difference is so much? Before it was just 30 minutes, but now it seems to be a few days.

Mr. Friendly throws like a girl.

That whole scene in the Sahara place thing was SOO HOT. I was like, DANG BOY, YOU GOT MOVES.
... I guess that didn't really sound right, but you know what I mean. I mean it in the cleanest way possible.

This episode really did make me love Ben even more. Definitely one of the best.

Ben episodes are always good.

And OMG. I HATE THE WAY JACK BREATHES, and he breathed (or whatever the past tense for breathe is, which I can't think of right now and I feel like an idiot because I'm pretty sure "breathed" is not a word) even more annoying in this episode. But nothing beats the annoying breath of Jack Shephard in the season 3 finale.

Wow... This post is my worst English of all time, or at least in the last few years... Sorry everyone! School makes me stupider... at times. I'm feeling a bit dyslexic this week.

@ Gables79
Don't expect to get on my list anytime soon. LOST is special in so many ways, if you don't appreciate it, don't watch it.

@ Shikotee - 73 and DocH - 77
Maybe Miles will eventually end up with them... By accident?

I think the reason that Locke and Ben are all "buddy buddy" is because they need each other.

So it seems that the random extras that chose Locke randomly showed up this episode... and now they are dead. That was actually kind of funny.

I love when Ben was like, "I guess you won't be getting those $3.2 million."

This episode was so funny.

(sorry about my thoughts being all over the place)

Ok that's it for now... I think. I will be back for more later.

#97. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 25, 2008 3:43 PM

I had to laugh when the sock/red shirt was carrying a log.... as in kill off the "log-carrying guy."

So were the 3 that were killed the only additional Losties that went with Locke's group? Or I suppose we just assume all of Locke's socks were killed off. So much for following Locke to safety...

#98. Posted by: Sock...Puppet...Guy at April 25, 2008 3:46 PM

@mac

Have you upgraded the blog software or hardware, or have I just forgotten how fast the posts update while there are only two-digits worth of posts?

#99. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 25, 2008 3:57 PM

RISK. I had recently watched the season 1 episode where Michael & Jack appear to be discussing super important... and then it pans out and they are lining up the putt on Hurley's Golf course. So when Hurley and Sawyer started discussing strategies, I said to my wife "Are they playing Risk?" Sure enough it pans out and there is the Risk board.... She was rather impressed that I called that.

That got me to thinking that it isn't just this episode that has a lot of game references in it. The whole show does. We've seen Backgammon, Ping pong, HORSE, Connect Four, etc. But I sure hope that the overall "answer" isn't that it's just a Trading Places-esque game between Widmore & Ben. Not only would that be disappointing, but rather sick & wrong considering how many people die.

#100. Posted by: Sock...Puppet...Guy at April 25, 2008 3:58 PM

@Cecil: The server and the blog software were both updated somewhat recently. The speed increase is probably due to that.

#101. Posted by: mac at April 25, 2008 4:00 PM

Linus/Widmore...
Shadows, B&W or W&B,
Can't kill one another directly?

Some say that scene was about chess...

The 'Kings' can not directly capture (checkmate) one another, as victory would be simultaneous for both - as would defeat.

#102. Posted by: DocH at April 25, 2008 4:14 PM

I cannot believe Alex is dead, that son of a bitch let her die!!!!!!
I luuurvvved Alex. chucking bug eye. I mean who lets his daughter adoptive or not be put in that position. Arrrggghhh!! But this as you said Mac is a key turning point in the show.
quick questions everyone:
1.- How the hell does Ben Lee control Smokey??? Is there like a remote to activate the growling and the smoke machine? It lost me somehow when he went in the Ben Cave....
2.- Ben Lee has SOME moves.... was that part of his Dharma training or where the hell did he pick those "Watchaaaa" moves?
3.-How did the comando team get on the island??? does anyone know for sure. Last we saw they were on the boat and helicopter dude had taken it for an "errand" right??? or did i miss somthing
Anyway, thanks y'all and thanks Mac

#103. Posted by: mapache at April 25, 2008 4:18 PM

10/24/05 is when Hurricane Wilma hit Florida.


#104. Posted by: brocDRAKE at April 25, 2008 4:18 PM

I loved the ironic juxtaposition in this episode where Ben is playing the piano while basically under house arrest exactly the same as Jack was (in that same house) when he was being held captive by the Others (when Kate came to try to free him). Who knows? It was probably the same song, too.

I don't think anybody has mentioned that Claire says "Charlie?" to Sawyer when he uncovers her from the exploded house. Maybe it's just to show her dazedness, but maybe there is more to that? Was she in some sort of half-dead zone where she sees "Dead, But I'm Here" Charlie? Then Sawyer awakens her from that state...

There was so much jam-packed into this episode. I'll definitely have to watch it again. Loved Smokey's domination of the shooters...

The houses rumbling made me think that the reason everybody knew what to do when the plane came crashing in (S3E1) is that when Smokey appears everything shakes like an earthquake. So they were prepared for a Smokey appearance when really it was a plane crashing. At the time we thought maybe they had previously encountered a plane crashing into their midst.

#105. Posted by: Sock...Puppet...Guy at April 25, 2008 4:26 PM

@97. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

"Is it just me or does Sawyer have a VERY SOFT side? He seems to care a lot for Claire and Aaron, and A LOT for Hurley. It's kind of cute."

I think much of this can be attributed to the successful con that Hurley pulled on him. Hurley tricked Sawyer into doing nice things for everyone, as Sawyer believed that he was going to be banished from the beach.

Hurley's logic was that with Jack gone, the survivors needed a leader to take care of them, and in his mind, Sawyer was such the guy.

Jack returned shortly after this, so it seemed like a Red Herring, but now we see that the effects are longer lasting.

Good work Hugo!

#106. Posted by: shikotee at April 25, 2008 4:26 PM

re 18

You are probably right. We haven't seen him without a bloody nose for a while.....
Still, I did get the feeling that the flashback was not all it seemed.
This show makes one very suspicious of anything they tell us!

#107. Posted by: berkyo at April 25, 2008 4:34 PM

re Mac: Ben summons Smokey (or turns it on ... I'm not sure which).

I don't think Ben has any particular control to turn on or summon smokey. What he does have is the ability to change the time line. When he travelled through "the portal" or whatever it is and killed the guy that killed Nadia, he changed the altered the future, thus requiring a course correction in space-time. Smokey, I believe, is the "course corrector". So when Ben came back to the island the course correction kicked in. Since Widmore changed the rules, Ben just made a little adjustment.

#108. Posted by: IdMonster at April 25, 2008 4:47 PM

Thanks for the review Mac, I really enjoyed it. Great as usual.

When Alex was executed, Ben realized that Widmore "changed the rules". It was immediately (and only after) this that he ran to his secret/secret/secret room and summoned (or whatever) Smokey. This gave me the impression that manipulating Smokey is also "changing the rules". Like Ben's first reaction was- hey, all bets are off...I'm getting rid of the henchmen with Smokey, even though I'm "not allowed to do that".

On the beach, Jack asked if he could talk to Bernard...I'm taking from this that Jack knew Bernard knows Morse Code, and asked him to stay close to Miles and make sure he's around when any Morse Code happens...because Jack knew Miles couldn't be trusted.

#109. Posted by: JoePike at April 25, 2008 4:48 PM

@103. Posted by: mapache

"How did the comando team get on the island???"

I would assume that it was by helicopter, as that is what the evidence points towards. Perhaps when Lup returns to the freighter with the chopper, he'll confirm this?

#110. Posted by: shikotee at April 25, 2008 5:01 PM

My theory:

When Ben enters his secret layer, he not only summons Smokey, but travels FORWARD in time, and that his flash forward in the episode occurred while he was away and Sawyer was banging on the door. He traveled forward about 11 months, and ended up in the Sahara where Charlotte discovered the Polar Bear. And he did so with the intention of finding Charles Widmore to tell him he changed the rules; the Sayid encounter/detour was just a moment of convenience for Ben. When (in the future) or how he comes back, we don't know, but I'm confident that his 20 seconds of departure into his secret room was perhaps a round trip that really took perhaps a few months.

I believe the island's time travel and teleportation powers have an intimate connection to the Sahara, perhaps a constant link, like a wormhole that sends one, or something, on the island to the Sahara roughly 11 months into the future (I say roughly because Ben wasn't exactly sure what date it was when he got to his hotel).

#111. Posted by: Vic at April 25, 2008 5:26 PM

When we first met Doc Ray on the freighter, his scar on his cheek was healing.

When we see Doc Ray was ashore, it is clear that his cheek injury was new, it still has stitches, which means Doc Ray was killed before Sayid & Desmond reached the freighter.

Which puts the whole time travel paradox, multiple people in same dimension issues front and center.

#112. Posted by: welh at April 25, 2008 5:42 PM

@ IdMonster - Post 108

I was on board with the 'course corrector' theory as well, but Ben KNEW that smokey would come out and attack. i doubt Ben would know that it would happen as a course correction. he seemed well prepared for smokey's appearance.


@ Vic - Post 111

I like your theory - only hole is the dharma parka and the bullet wound. And no, Ben wasn't POSITIVE of the exact date, but he seemed to know still... it certainly wasn't a surprise to him.

#113. Posted by: DriveShaft at April 25, 2008 5:57 PM

-109 JoePike: It was immediately (and only after) this that he ran to his secret/secret/secret room and summoned (or whatever) Smokey

I also had a neener-neener/bully/I'll- show-you reaction when Ben bolted into his Secret Place. And, since it seemed outwardly like a childish thing to do, it also seemed appropriate that he'd come out all full of dirt from the playground. Still wondering why he was so dirty, as pointed out by -12 Alais.

#114. Posted by: lovelost at April 25, 2008 6:13 PM

I just watched the episode and agree with posts...really good one. I have a theory about Ben and Widmore's "game" that they appear to be playing. Seemed to have dropped a hint with Team Locke playing Risk (and I agree that the reference to Australia plays a big part). I didn't get that "game" theme to mean Post #13's theory about mob bosses/mafioso, etc. What if Ben and Widmore are playing this big game with real players and an island to gain as the prize...? What if there were game rules established in the beginning so that Ben and Widmore would need to stick to for the end prize? I'm thinking that may be why Ben knows who everyone is that he encounters...their names...their backgrounds...their complete life resume. Everyone associated with the island are pawns in the big real world game between Ben and Widmore. Just a thought...

#115. Posted by: boodle at April 25, 2008 6:18 PM

What a fantastic episode!

I really believe the Spyid-Nadia story arc was cut due to the writers strike. The producers had said as much being they are working an episode short. That being said, they did a really good job at explaining in two minutes what would have been a fifteen minute backstory.

I can't think of any other character on television who I can loath and root for in the same damn episode! The writing is really amazing.

I can't wait until the "Jacob" episode where we'll find out about smokey, but undoubtedly be bombarded with more questions.

#116. Posted by: The Other Other at April 25, 2008 6:21 PM

→ 111. Posted by: Vic
- - - -
I like your theory too. Where Ben, seconds after Alexandras' death, runs to the closet, wrecks havoc on the future, then returns to inflict vengance - Island Style - just seconds after the infraction. That is what I'd do.

But I agree - that may be a stretch. Seems like if he was dedicated to recruiting Locke to "island protectorate", he'd do what he did, summon island security, to immediately defend Locke. And he did return wearing the same (non-parka)clothes that he left in, though he looked like he just climbed up a dirty (smoky) chimney.

#117. Posted by: DocH at April 25, 2008 6:38 PM

@ shikotee - 106
That's a good point. I forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me. Explains a lot.

Weren't they trying to avoid having people go back and forth from and to the island because they didn't want anyone else to get "confused"? So much for that.

@ Vic - 111
"When Ben enters his secret layer, he not only summons Smokey, but travels FORWARD in time, and that his flash forward in the episode occurred while he was away and Sawyer was banging on the door. He traveled forward about 11 months, and ended up in the Sahara where Charlotte discovered the Polar Bear. And he did so with the intention of finding Charles Widmore to tell him he changed the rules; the Sayid encounter/detour was just a moment of convenience for Ben. When (in the future) or how he comes back, we don't know, but I'm confident that his 20 seconds of departure into his secret room was perhaps a round trip that really took perhaps a few months. "

...That's actually a good theory. Kudos.

But I only have one thing to say about that... I may be wrong, but how would Ben know about how that guy that supposedly killed Nadia wasn't seen in a long time then all of a sudden seen recently. I guess he could have found that out later, but considering how he asked for the date and all... whatever. I like your theory.

It is clear that I need to watch the episode again. I'm disappointed with myself.

#118. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 25, 2008 6:59 PM

@103 mapache asked:

>3.-How did the comando team get on the island??? does anyone know for sure. Last we saw they were on the boat and helicopter dude had taken it for an "errand" right??? or did i miss somthing

There was a night scene where the head commando asked Frank where he was going (leaving the deck), and cautioned him not to be late (and the heavy implications was that he was taking the mercs somewhere).

#119. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 25, 2008 7:01 PM

WHY WHY WHY....did Smokey spare Keamy????????????????????????

Haven't we seen in the past that the ol' Smokester can read people and then back off????

WHY did Keamy pass this test????

#120. Posted by: Vikki at April 25, 2008 7:05 PM

@105 Sock...Puppet...Guy noted:

>I don't think anybody has mentioned that Claire says "Charlie?" to Sawyer when he uncovers her from the exploded house. Maybe it's just to show her dazedness, but maybe there is more to that? Was she in some sort of half-dead zone where she sees "Dead, But I'm Here" Charlie? Then Sawyer awakens her from that state...

I noticed that, too. And it ties in with some speculations that I've made before and which were intensified by reading "The Inventions of Morel" (one of Ben's library. See my review coming soon in the Random Topic Area.

#121. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 25, 2008 7:08 PM

I live near Santa Monica and LaBrea and the unless Sayid's wife was driving at night, that area always seems to be gridlocked. There is no way to get past 40mph in that area!

#122. Posted by: Connie at April 25, 2008 7:19 PM

Clementine--#60

Maybe Juliet inbecoming incapacitated can download the knowlege of how to perform an appendectomy to Kate and we can have a nice "Spock's Brain" episode.


I had really been liking Faraday but as of this episode he's really overdoing it with all the nervous tics and stammering and twitching. He's starting to get annoying.

Couldn't believe Ben let Alex die...

ILBLXX and meg--thought of you gals during this ep as Ben was getting all Bourne Ultimatum. I just knew you'd be lovin' yer man looking so cool. It certainly helped erase those images of him waddling up the hill after showing Juliet Goodwin's body. Never really pictured him as an asskicker like that before. His cool factor just shot way up.

Oh and Ben totally killed Nadia. That Widmore guy Sayid killed probably really had nothing to do with it.

And the horrible eyes line was great--totally keeps me thinking that the writers check out the blogs.

Totally thought Claire would be dead since we all figured she needs to die at some point for Aaron to be "adopted" by Kate.

I always thought there were tunnels leading from Ben's place out to various areas on the island--like Paulo's porta potty hatch station. Why didn't they just escape the freighties through those.

Smokey totally looked mre real and cool than ever before. I never found the Smoky effect to be all that impressive and he never seemed all that scary because of the fakeness. I was always a little disappointed in the smokester...No More! Last night Smoky looked the way he should lokk as he went all Ten Commandments grren mist angel of death killing the first borns...

#123. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 25, 2008 7:27 PM

@113. Posted by: DriveShaft

Right, because Ben's done it many times before. He doesn't know "How" smokey works, but he knows that when he alters the time line and returns to the island, that the course correction occurs. He knew exactly what was going to happen when he got back. Maybe Jakob knows how and/or why it works?????

#124. Posted by: IdMonster at April 25, 2008 7:28 PM

By the way, where's Mr. Grimm? He usually has the right answer:)

#125. Posted by: IdMonster at April 25, 2008 7:30 PM

@Vic/111
@DocH/117

Yeah, the Stargate in the secret closet theory sure seemed probable when he came out so dirty, and seemingly ended the attack in a matter of seconds; a lot more seemed to have happened in that double secret hatch than Ben getting dirty.

I also agree, however, that the other flash scene from this episode was likely NOT directly related (gunshot, parka ...).

Also remember that all of Ben's travel clothes, money, passports, etc. are in the outer secret room he entered first. Perhaps Ben has been coming and going all along through the 2xsecret portal, and changing clothes on the way out to match what he on going in (to avoid suspicion).

That really raises so many questions though, that I hardly even know where to begin, especially when you throw in the apparent time travel possibilities.

A few other initial thoughts ...

Doc Ray dies later (after Dan's call to check on his status), and his body drifts toward the island, but not being on the "correctly" managed heading, he winds up in the past, when Bernard finds him.

If Ben's secret portal was in fact that (as opposed to him going into a very dirty room to activate Smokey), this could explain his popping into the desert ... rather than flying or boating to/from the island along an exact course, "walking out" is probably less accurate, and hence the questiosn regarding the exact date when he appeared "on the other side" in the desert. Why the parka? Just not enough info yet ... could mean almost anything. He was shot, but by whom? When? Where? Did he flash-forward, or flash-back to Tunisia?

I was also hoping for some confirmation of my "the O6 time jumped forward a few months when they left the island" theory; almost, but not quite (not disproven either though!). If I'm right, then the O6 (assuming they leave very soon in island time) would arrive off-island in the Aug/Sep time-frame. We know from last night that Sayid got married to Nadia, and then lost her very soon afterward (and it was late October). I do not consider it beyond the realm of possibility (Sayid probably would've wanted to marry her immediately upon returning to the real world and finding her), and in fact, might even bolster my theory.

#126. Posted by: ealgumby at April 25, 2008 7:33 PM

yesterday's producer interview @

www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4260693.html

#127. Posted by: Morbid0 at April 25, 2008 8:00 PM

@welh/82
>>>
Ben is the "monster" who killed Emily, his mother, according to his father, Roger Linus, and his grandfather, Charles Widmore. Emily was Widmore's daughter. Emily married a low class workman like Penelope is about to.

This would explain why Ben is apparently wealthy, and why he would not kill his grandfather (blood relatives are safe) who knows about the powers of the island.
>>>

That's a good theory. Been trying to think of any good reason why Ben wouldn't have just killed Widmore in his bed otherwise.

The only other thing that makes sense would be Ben trying to maintain the "course correction," and killing Widmore would somehow disrupt that. We now seem to know that Ben has the ability not just to come/go from the island, but also (at least limited) ability time travel as well. Perhaps he's been to the future, and knows Widmore needs to be around for some course-correction event yet to come, so couldn't kill him.

I'm thinking that's what Ben meant by saying Widmore had "changed the rules," the rules being the whole course correction thing. Alex wasn't "supposed" to die as she did, not just pissing Ben off, but making his job of maintaining the time-line more difficult by introducing another wrinkle. Ben may actually be the "good guy," keeping the proper timeline moving forward; Widmore, maliciously or just unknowingly, would then make sense as the "bad guy," mucking things up and hastening the end of the world.

#128. Posted by: ealgumby at April 25, 2008 8:10 PM

Before I start, yes I am drunk, and no I haven't read past about 15 posts yet...but I will.

In the opening scene Ben is sick, supposedly from time travel. Is that possibly why Jack is sick as well but Juliet is covering up with the appendix thing!!

#129. Posted by: meg...MIF at April 25, 2008 8:15 PM

@meg

Your a girl after my own heart. I love the you start every post with: "I'm durnk" That's too funny.

#130. Posted by: IdMonster at April 25, 2008 8:46 PM

Charles Widmore Original Member of Black Rock Crew? Just watched it again online. Widmore says to Ben, "That island is mine and it will be again" implying that it was once his--maybe because he was on it? Could he be one of the original crew of the ship that was marooned there? He somehow found his way off and hasn't been able to find it again. Not so farfetched considering what transpired in this episode.

#131. Posted by: Gwen at April 25, 2008 9:16 PM

@LostedIt/#67 and Cecil/#84:

re: I said Penny wasn't in hiding, that she was in her flat in London, and you reminded me that we don't know where she is in Oct 2005.

Yes, but I guess I was watching Ben's scenes as sequential to his own reality, so that he entered his magic box closet, took a little jaunt through time, perhaps first dealing with some nebby Portuguese researchers in the Antartic (after he had them relay the island coordinates to Penny), then to Tunisia to practice Dharmarate in his Dharka, to Iraq to recruit/manipulate Sayid, a London layover to threaten old man Widmore, a quick pitstop in Smokey's den to rotate the tires and gas him up, and then back to the magic closet, returning only a few minutes after he left, but having traveled for a good long time. Now he's back on the island, waiting for Penny to come rescue Des, so he can exact his "eye for a bug-eye" revenge. Ben made his threat in 2005, but why can't he kill Penny in 2004? Would "course-correction" preclude this?

#132. Posted by: Clementine at April 25, 2008 9:33 PM

@ LIF/94: Did anyone notice the "Bat" Phone?
Yes, I did, thankyouverymuch! ;)

@Sock...Puppet...Guy/105: "Who knows? It was probably the same song, too."
Actually, Ben was playing Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C# minor. Quite a haunting and volatile piece.

I find it interesting how grief-stricken Sayid was over Nadia and stated how he'd spent 8 years looking for the woman he loves...yet he somehow found the time to boink Shannon (and refer to her as the woman he loves in "One of Them").

So sad about Alex. Ben was trying to put the ball back in his court by taking her out of the equasion, and Keamy totally called his bluff. Even sadder is the last thing she heard was "She means nothing to me." The good news is, Miles can ghost whisper her body and tell her Ben didn't really mean what he said.

And speaking of Alex, anyone notice the emergency code she punched in the fence was 1623? Two magic numbers rear their ugly heads!

Lastly (for now), regarding the name Halliwax on the parka. This has nothing to do with the episode itself but could come into play later. All of Dr. Marvin's aliases have been related to each other. CANDLE, WICKmund, HalliWAX. Hmm....

Best hour of my life last night!!! Great job, Mac! Best hour of my life today! Peace out, yo.

#133. Posted by: Trinity at April 25, 2008 9:44 PM

****Maybe a SPOILER? but mostly silliness****

From Doc Jenson at EW
“FYI: A scene in which Claire experienced a hallucination/prophetic vision was shot for this episode but cut for lack of running time, but I'm told we can expect Claire intrigue to ramp up next week.”

I would like for Claire to die ASAP (if she’s not already dead), so as to prevent anymore god-awful sightings of the WIG. Perhaps she can come back as a very stylish ghost with her cuter, shorter, real hair. (Charlie appeared to have a ghostly makeover, why not Claire?)

I wish that rocket had destroyed the WIG, along with Claire's house.

I hate bad wigs, although I don't exactly like good wigs, either.

****Don't get me started on toupees-END SPOILER****

#134. Posted by: Clementine at April 25, 2008 9:49 PM

Even though the scene wasn't very long, I too was very doubtful when 3 others got picked off yet Sawyer evaded the bullets. However after he found Claire, got all the way back to the house and got her and himself through the window, I thought that perhaps they were purposefully avoiding shooting him. Of course I have absolutely no clue why that would be but it was just an idea!

#135. Posted by: El at April 25, 2008 9:49 PM

@welh/112

>>>
When we first met Doc Ray on the freighter, his scar on his cheek was healing.

When we see Doc Ray was ashore, it is clear that his cheek injury was new, it still has stitches, which means Doc Ray was killed before Sayid & Desmond reached the freighter.

Which puts the whole time travel paradox, multiple people in same dimension issues front and center.
>>>

Damn good call! Just finished reviewing the ep, and you are right ... what does this mean? In my mind, it has to induce a "rabbit 15" incident, with dup-docs, one killed "to keep him away from the other" as in the Orchid video. Might this mean there was also a dup-Regina, who had to be killed off with the chains thing? Hmm ...

Also going back to your #82 post about Widmore being Ben's grandfather. In reviewing the final scene, I noticed when Ben talked about W's daughter he said, "Penelope, is it?" implying she was recent news to him ... that kinda blows the tight Widmore family theory out, as I assume he'd know his aunt, if taking gramps money. I offer an even more perverse option ... Charles Widmore is Ben's "real" dad!

At least a few Star Wars refs in this epi, including Ben's damn-near verbatim Yoda-to-Luke speech to Sayid about giving in to hate, etc. Think Luke/Vader here! I don't think Emily was Widmore's daughter, but rather that he impregnated her with Ben! Rich man, poor struggling couple ... you never know, and all the more reason for Roger to hate Ben (assuming he knew). Hence Widmore referring to Ben as "Boy, I know who you are!" Being a bastard son, it stands to reason that Ben wouldn't know much about Penelope.

Sorry to steal this one from you welh, with only a slight variation, but it's mine now ...

A few minor things ... I don't think Ben had the guy in Iraq (Nadia's killer?) on payroll, because he didn't flinch when Ben told him to deliver a message to Widmore ... just asked what it was. It's clear Ben and Widmore are not working together, so I don't buy that he was in any way working for Ben ... of course, that doesn't prove he was the one who killed Nadia (could've been Ben himself for all we know).

Second, more an aside than anything, but noticed on review that Ben's body was "steaming" when we first see him laying on his back in the desert ... good touch, having apparently just been transported from the frigid arctic!

Third, Ben's "flashes" in this epi could not have happened when he ducked into the double secret room ... he had the same bruises on his face (from being beaten up by damned near everyone) upon entry to his chamber of secrets, and exit, while none in the "flash" scenes.

Finally, one thing that bothers me, just a bit. I think we have firmly established that being only slightly "off-course" when coming to/leaving the island (rocket, helo, ...) induces some time travel effect. Yet, Desmond was able to stumble upon the island in his boat, and the plane (815) crash, with no apparent time dilation effects. What gives? They just "happened" to hit the exactly correct course, both times? This may be a clue (someone/something actively guiding them to the island on purpose), or just production liberty ... who knows (well, I guess the producers/writers)?

#136. Posted by: ealgumby at April 25, 2008 10:34 PM

→ 97. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
>>Someone said something about starting to like Ben -- BEN IS MINE (and half meg's). Please don't make this an unrealistic rectangleish thing. Meg and I won, you lost.

That was me....and you can put your claws away, I'm laying no claim to him, I promise. He's just THE most fascinating character on the entire show. Even though the buggy eyes just don't do it for me, I'm beginning to see what you must have seen all along....

;)

#137. Posted by: notsoeasy at April 25, 2008 10:49 PM

→ 136. Posted by: ealgumby
At least a few Star Wars refs in this epi...
- - - -
yeah... lots of "The Force" undertones in many episodes. I was waiting last night for.

Darth Widmore: "Ben... I am your father!"

Ben Skywalker: "Nooooo!" (falls back through the time portal).

Hurley-bacca and Jack Solo recover Ben as he comes through the portal.

Later, when Penny and Ben start to kiss, Locky-wan-Kanobi chimes-in... "Hey - you two DO KNOW that you are brother and sister don't you."

both shrug - and continue....

(sorry ILBLxx - "this are not the comments you are looking for...)

#138. Posted by: DocH at April 26, 2008 12:08 AM

Loved the episode. Can't wait to watch it again.

The first thing I thought when I saw Ben show up in the desert in a parka, injured, was that he had been to the Artic Circle to get rid of the guys that found the island....and by the end of the episode I still thought that but I also thought that that sneaky, bug-eyed, mo-fo was trying to change the rules somehow.

I got the feeling that he and Widmore are related and that's why they can't kill each other...maybe it would create some sort of time paradox. Widmore also called him boy, which made me think he was his son or grandson.

I think Miles and Jacob will hook up some time, but it is way too soon for that.

I watched last week's episode again and the part where Ben is talking to Michael on the boat and he is explaining that he had to prove he was one of the good guys....that there are innocent people on the boat....and that he can't kill them and that's what makes him different from Charles Widmore. Then after listening to his conversation with Widmore in this week's episode he's totally changed where he tells him he is going to kill Penny...He is turning into the monster he accuses Widmore of being. I think Jacob is going to have something to say about that.

I think they need to tie up all the freighter folk. None of them can be trusted except maybe Lapidus. And somebody please smack that smirk right off Charlotte's face....please.

#139. Posted by: JCS at April 26, 2008 12:16 AM

One hundred and fortieth!

#140. Posted by: t-code-j at April 26, 2008 5:52 AM

The Shape Of Things To Come is the best episode from the Lost Serial and Ben is GREAT !!
http://www.watchlostfree.com

#141. Posted by: Bica at April 26, 2008 5:54 AM

cHARLES whitmore AND bEN REMIND ME OF Professor X and Magneto lol lost is sick!!!! like this show is really amazing. sayid is friggin Jason Bourne in his own world. it takes so many twists. i just dont want to watch anymore if sawyer dies...or Jin's husband this suckss im LOST

#142. Posted by: Randi at April 26, 2008 6:39 AM

I had to watch this episode twice; it was great!!

First, I am glad the Benlinsxx and I are finally getting the respect we deserve for our taste in men. Ben is all powerful.

Someone commented earlier on Sawyer's change in character. I loved the way he was so protective of Claire and Hurley. Awesome shift, and I bet that was just hidden all along. He finally isn't out to get others to hate him. Kate's going to like this.

I liked Faraday's answer about time, something like it was a relative thing. I don't like the way he talks though.

Looking forward to seeing what happens on the freighter. I am assuming that there is a fight when the Losties find out that the army men have gone to the island, and that the doc tries to stop them from following. They slit his throat to get control of the ship and get back.

#143. Posted by: meg at April 26, 2008 8:02 AM

@ Vic - 111
"When Ben enters his secret layer..."

What's this you're saying about Ben and a chicken?

#144. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 26, 2008 10:32 AM

re 111 Vic
I like your theory too. I will have to :tink in this a little".

But wouldn't Ben have all the bruises on his face from the island when he got to the Sahara? And where did he get the Coat and arm wound??

And wouldn't he have the wound on his arm when he came back to the present?

I like the idea of forcing the universe to make course corrections.

#145. Posted by: berkyo at April 26, 2008 10:35 AM

@133 Trinity said:

>Lastly (for now), regarding the name Halliwax on the parka. This has nothing to do with the episode itself but could come into play later. All of Dr. Marvin's aliases have been related to each other. CANDLE, WICKmund, HalliWAX. Hmm....

Mext up, Dr. Edmund Birthday Cake.

>Best hour of my life last night!!! Great job, Mac! Best hour of my life today!

While it was a very good episode, and excellent review, I think maybe you need to get out more. (g)

#146. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 26, 2008 10:36 AM

re 126
Thanks for explaining the doc on the beach AND on the boat problem. I had a lot of trouble with that.

#147. Posted by: berkyo at April 26, 2008 10:40 AM

Maybe Sawyer wasn't killed by the expert marksmen with high powered automatic elephant guns and rocket launchers - not because he hid behind a picnic table and a baroque - but because the "Island has Work for Him to Do!"

#148. Posted by: berkyo at April 26, 2008 10:47 AM

Excellent review Mac! I sooooo loved this episode. Who would have thought that one episode after killing off Rousseau and Carl they's whack Alex, Nadia, 3 randoms and (possibly) the doctor from the ship? I guess with a limited number of episodes left it was time to ramp up the death toll so we can focus on the important characters!

Mac, you did a great job of wrapping up a lot of plot (not to mention action) we got in this episode.

I really liked that when Claire was coming to she mistook Sawyer for Charlie. Nice to know our little hobbit may be gone, but is not forgotten.

Now that we are getting more info on how Charles Widmore is involved with all of this, I am dying to see how Sun's dad is also involved.

And I'm with Mac on hoping Linus fails, the last thing I want to see is Desmond turing into a tragic figure with the death of Penny. It does make me wonder if a) Desmond makes it home with the Oceanic 6, b) if he keeps his premonitions once off the island (and after he was returned to his proper time in the Constant), and c) if the answer to both is yes, then will he find himself constantly trying to save Penny as he did with Charlie last season?

I am so glad Lost is back!

#149. Posted by: FenwayBen at April 26, 2008 10:52 AM

So um, how old is Ben exactly? In the show I mean... because I know in real life he's 50 something.

On lostpedia it says it's unknown.

I guess in the show Ben isn't THAT old, but Widmore doesn't seem like he's THAT old either. I guess he could possibly be his father though.

@ notsoeasy - 137
Oh sorry. It's cool. Glad people are starting to appreciate him! Now when he and I walk in public he doesn't have to cover himself up so nobody recognizes him and kills him.

@ DocH - 138
Yeah, I'd prefer if Ben didn't make out with his sister. But then again, we found out that he's married to his mother, so I'm not sure what to expect next.

@ meg - 143
"First, I am glad the Benlinsxx and I are finally getting the respect we deserve for our taste in men. Ben is all powerful."

...Haha, me too!

@ Cecil Rose - 146
I guess I need to get out more too because I claimed the Season 3 finale of LOST to be the best 2 hours of my life, and "Man Behind the Curtain" to be the second best hour of my life (making three best hours of my life) and I do believe this episode made number three. =]

I know... I'm pathetic.

But LOST IS my life so I guess I'm just saying that those were the best of LOST, and my life.

#150. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 26, 2008 11:06 AM

I wonder if Ben has used his 'death-stick' to bust open any pinatas?

#151. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at April 26, 2008 11:08 AM

@151. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man

re: 'death-stick'

Lol - Does that thing have a name in the real world? Does such a thing really exist, or was it just made up for the show?

I totally wanna get me one!

Don't think I'd really kick too many peoples asses - it would simply be for prestige!

#152. Posted by: shikotee at April 26, 2008 11:24 AM

mac wrote: "I rarely quibble over realism -- especially when smoke monsters are involved -- but I find it amazing that Sawyer managed to dodge a hail of bullets and Claire survived the exploding condo..."

just reading through the ABC recap of 4.9 and they say Claire was under a pile of laundry in the backyard of the exploding condo... guess she was far enough away and protected enough to make that feasible (no?)

#153. Posted by: ANON2 at April 26, 2008 2:33 PM

@ninja-shikotee/#152: re your very own "death-stick"

Here you go:
http://www.milestonesafety.com/telsteelbat.html

For a little extra, you can have a "Stun Master":
http://www.milestonesafety.com/telescopic-stun-baton.html

Maybe mac can get you one with a Lost logo?

#154. Posted by: Clementine at April 26, 2008 3:04 PM

This episode – WOW!!!
I think it may be the largest body count of all. The only other ones would be the pilot where many people died on the plane. The Dharma Purge, and when the fake wreckage was found. Still this had people dead and dying left and right, even in the flash forward.

I’ve read most of the posts. So much to say…

First off I loved the song Ben was playing on piano, foreshadowing, very morbid and macabre. Then he pulls a sawed-off shotgun from the piano bench. Very bad a$$.

Keamy is a great villain. Yet he seemed to get emotional before shooting Alex, almost like he knew he was breaking the rules and didn’t want to do it. Maybe that’s why Alex screamed she was Ben’s daughter, because she knew the rules.

Okay… on to the rules. WTF? Going back to John Locke in the pilot episode. John, who loves games introduces Walt to a game called ‘Go’, where one player is black and one is white. I looked it up on Wikipedia and maybe that’s what Ben and Charles are playing, a huge game of Go. It’s a very territorial game, perhaps the island is the game board. Plus, didn’t Adam and Eve have a black and white stone on their persons?

Still these ‘rules’ – what the hell? We need to see every occasion previously when Charles and Ben have conversed, and hopefully find out about this game, and these rules and what the hell is going on.

Nice to see smokey back kicking a$$ and taking names.
Favorite MACism :” Member Only Dharma Parka”

#155. Posted by: callaway76 at April 26, 2008 4:37 PM

At first when Ben said he changed the rules, I was positive he was talking about Jacob.

#156. Posted by: meg at April 26, 2008 8:09 PM

@150 ilovebenjaminlinusxx revealed:

>>@ Cecil Rose - 146
>I guess I need to get out more too because I claimed the Season 3 finale of LOST to be the best 2 hours of my life, and "Man Behind the Curtain" to be the second best hour of my life (making three best hours of my life) and I do believe this episode made number three. =]

>I know... I'm pathetic.

>But LOST IS my life so I guess I'm just saying that those were the best of LOST, and my life.

Well, my dear, you are very, very young and have many more years to accumulate some more and better "best moments".

Not that Lost and mac's reviews are bad, by any means, but life has much, much more to offer, and i wish you many happy years of finding out.

#157. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 26, 2008 8:32 PM

CecilRose: Ben & the chicken...hilarious!

I think when we hear the word "game" in reference to Ben's and Widmore's conflict that it is meant to be figurative rather than literal. They are not playing a game.

This episode got me to thinking about Old Smokey...I'm thinking it is not a judge or a punisher. I'm beginning to think that his purpose is more as a course corrector. Alex's execution was in violation of the rules. Had the rules been adhered to the events would have unfolded differently. Perhaps Smokey was unleashed to kill those people who were supposed to die had the rules been followed.

The 815 Pilot remained alive until he was discovered by Kate & Jack and had a chance of survival. Only then did Smokey sweep in and kill him. Might that have been to prevent him from being rescued and returned to the real world by his old friend the helicopter pilot?

I've rejected the idea of Smokey as Judge since he killed the hell out of Eko who had undergone a profound transformation and redemption.

Did Eko have to die because it was he, not his brother, who was supposed to die in that light plane?

Or, and I think this is it, did Eko have to die specifically because he found redemption? Because Smokey did not kill him until after Eko refused to say he was sorry to the apparition of his brother, saying something like, "I have already confessed to God." as though Eko viewed the apparition as a false god. It might be that Smokey tested his change and found him to be sincere. Perhaps the course had to be corrected because a redeemed Eko would change the future. Maybe the islanders would have followed him rather than Jacob or Ben and that would lead to Widmore's regaining the island?

Or not.

#158. Posted by: undaunted at April 26, 2008 8:42 PM

@ Chad Brown #24:

When Ben "arrived" in Tunisia, I got the feeling he didn't know for sure that he was in Tunisia because he tried out a number of different languages on the horseriders. For example, one of the languages was Turkish (my partner is Turkish and picked this up), so it seemed he was not yet aware of where he was exactly. Maybe in his desperation to get away from whoever/whatever caused the injury to his arm, he 'jumped' without knowing WHERE he was jumping to (though he knew WHEN he was jumping to).

Claire

#159. Posted by: Claire at April 26, 2008 9:10 PM

@ Cecil Rose - 157
I meant as of now. But thank you. Sorry, I should have been more clear. Junior year is boring, LOST is the only thrill so far.

Hopefully once I get to college it'll spice up a bit -- and unfortunately by then LOST will be gone, so I will have to find something else to spend my time with.

#160. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 26, 2008 10:45 PM

Just because Ben said he would kill Penny doesn't mean he intends to kill Penny.

It might be his intent to deprive Widmore of his daughter by taking her to the island and reuniting her with the man she loves and her father is so contemputous of.

Widmore would die of irony!

#161. Posted by: undaunted at April 27, 2008 12:55 AM

→ 159. Posted by: Claire
- - - -
Tunisian Arabic, French and Berber are common lingos in Tunisia.

English, German and Italian are known well too, mostly because of tourism.

Ben tried English in there somewhere, then gave the guy "So you do speak English", as he was clubbing him.

#162. Posted by: DocH at April 27, 2008 12:56 AM

Mac, amazing review as always. What would we do without you?

The (apparent) fact that Ben can control Smokey should make all of us review each and every Smokey attack in that context...for example, in killing the still-alive OA815 pilot, did Ben make sure that he would not divulge some secret, such as a course charted over the island? Was the pilot part of a conspiracy to get our beloved characters to the island in the first place? This would help explain why Ben knows everything about everone on the flight.

Another Smokey attack that comes to mind is Locke's, and his being spared would make sense in this context.

Eko-can't quite figure that one out yet.

#163. Posted by: addictedtolost at April 27, 2008 9:11 AM

add-

Sorry, undaunted, I somehow missed your post-but we seem to be thinking along similar lines!

#164. Posted by: addictedtolost at April 27, 2008 9:13 AM

Maybe Ben had Eko killed via smokey because Eko knew too much. He had that "Look North" and some compass bearings on his Jesus stick.

#165. Posted by: meg at April 27, 2008 11:23 AM

159...Claire:

As DocH in 162 mentions, Many languages are spoken in Tunisia. So Ben trying several different languages on the two horsemen indicates he didn't know what language they might speak, but it does not indicate that Ben didn't know what country he landed in.

It might be that Ben always ends up in that spot in The Sahara when he leaves his lair and then must proceed from there to his intended destination. It would explain why he could speak those languages.

#166. Posted by: undaunted at April 27, 2008 12:20 PM

Alex iwas born in the island. The rule is not to kill to the people who are born in the island! Aaron is the only one now.

#167. Posted by: Yonomeaburro at April 27, 2008 12:46 PM

Ok, I come here regularly, never poted. My first time here I gonna throw a crazy theory out there (don't judge me by this if ya think its crazy, I have just been trying to wrap my head around all the new info) Here goes...If ya remember when we first saw Ben on the island and his father, his father was angry with him cause his wife, Ben's mother, died in child birth. I think Ben is a twin and Charles Whitmore is the twin who maybe was adopted out of family. (remember the book reference to the lost twin) So that's my rambling thoughts, in reference to this weeks show and the whole Ben and Charles, It's my island thing.

#168. Posted by: Julie at April 27, 2008 12:53 PM

holy crap. so many great moments in this episode.
i'm still laughing at bens ninja moment. who knew he could kick ass?

did anyone else notice that during the ben-widmore scene that you could only see half of there faces? that really bothers me.

#169. Posted by: kaseygirl106 at April 27, 2008 2:03 PM

Another thought about the Ben-Widmore encounter in the middle of the night. When Ben asked him when did he start sleeping with a bottle of scotch by his bed and Widmore replied, "...since the nightmares began..." Wonder what he meant by that...this may be something we may discover later as more answers are revealed and more new questions emerge. Widmore, as arrogant and as powerful as he's been portrayed, it must be something really bad to cause him regular nightmares.

#170. Posted by: boodle at April 27, 2008 2:36 PM

I just watched the episode again, and I noticed a few things. I'm sorry if anyone has already pointed out some of these things.

Here's my $1.50 =]
______

So it seems as though Ben lied about how he got there, unless he didn't.

When Sayid asked him how he got off the island he replied:
Ben: Came accross the Syrian boarder, really not that difficult --"
Sayid: How did you get off the island.
*(which implies that he didn't leave with everyone else)*
Ben: Your friend Desmond had a boatm remember? The Elizabeth, I follwed a heading to Figi, then I chartered a plane.
____

So Ben cares about himself, but it also looks like he does in fact deep down care about everyone else too. Unless he cares about them for selfish reasons.
_____

If Ben knew that he'd be breaking the rules by killing Alex, then why did he pull that whole "She means nothing to me" thing to save her life? That would've been useless if he thought/knew that Keamy wasn't going to kill her.
______

Ben says, "once you let your hrief become anger, it will never go away"

In Macbeth, Malcolm tells Macduff to turn his grief into anger.

Gosh I hate that book... Sorry, irrelevant. I was just connecting the two for no reason.
______

Sawyer: Are you alright sweetheart?
Claire: Yeah, a bit wobbly, but I'll live.
Miles: I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Maybe he was just saying "you never know what's going to happen." Rather than, "I can see the dead version of you."
______

Sawyer feels as though he's obligated to protect Claire, Aaron, and Hurley. Whoever that was that said the whole thing about Sawyer feeling that way because of that Hurley said earlier looks completely right; that's definitely part of it, but I feel like a lot of it is just from Sawyer himself as well.

#171. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 27, 2008 3:42 PM

How come none has mentioned that Ben booked in as "Dean Moriarty" in the hotel. Hey, Jack Kerouac "On The Road" this is very interesting!!!!!

#172. Posted by: Ken Wilson at April 27, 2008 5:43 PM

@Claire/#159 and undaunted/#166: I had the same thought as undaunted about Ben being prepared with his language skills. But if our little bug-eyed conniver frequently popped into Tunisia in that very spot, I would expect him to have transportation or a means of communication waiting. He wouldn’t want to hike out of the desert each time, surely? So, maybe (as Claire said) he doesn’t have exact control of his destination coordinates, but it’s somewhere within a certain area (a Vile Vortex?)

BTW, if you didn’t see this elsewhere, the translation of the Bedouins initial conversation as they were riding up was something like “Where did this guy come from? And why is there no trail?”

@Yonomeaburro/#167: Hola! Tu blog es grande! I don’t read Spanish, but are you the “Filmfodder” of Madrid? I love your avatar (cuadro). I agree with your comment. I want to know why it is important to be born on the island.

@Julie/#168: Glad you decided to post! Hope to see more comments from you! I never read “Bad Twin,” but according to Lostpedia, the twins were Clifford and Alexander Widmore. The speculation is they are nephews of Charles Widmore (Penny’s father)? But as the producers have said everything we need to know is in the actual show, I’m guessing that Bad Twin won’t be relevant to the nature of the relationship between Charles Widmore and Ben Linus. Also, I think Widmore is substantially older than Ben, so not his brother. And Ben’s offhand referral to Penny’s name makes me think there’s no familial relationship at all. If Widmore and Ben were more than “business” rivals, I think Widmore would expect Ben to know all about Penny (even if they never met). Maybe Ben was Widmore’s protégée or more likely, his guinea pig, who ended up overthrowing his “master” for control of the island. (Now, I’m off on an “Animal Farm” analogy.)

@boodle/#170: Maybe the island is giving Widmore nightmares. If it can prevent Michael from killing himself, maybe it’s also giving Widmore a hard time because he’s getting closer to finding it.

BTW, the painting of the Black Rock that Widmore bought at auction in “The Constant” is on the wall behind the lamp in his bedroom. Nothing like the image of a slave ship to promote restful dreams.

@Ken Wilson/#172: The first time we saw the name “Dean Moriarty” on the passport was back in “The Economist” when Sayid discovered Ben’s secret room. I think we may have discussed the Jack Kerouac connection at that time.

Good tunes on your website, dude. I like “Blues in my Veins” and “Why Am I Living”

*******************

Maybe Widmore can also travel through time, and knowing Ben will go after Penny, he tries to bribe Des to end the relationship back in 1996, so Penny will not have a reason to go to the island in the future.

I can’t see Ben killing Penny in a blind need for revenge, if he can use her for leverage in the meantime. More likely, he would hold Penny hostage to get what he wants. Which is what? For Widmore to give up his search for the island?

#173. Posted by: Clementine at April 27, 2008 7:49 PM

Ben asked Widmore, "When did you start sleeping with a bottle of scotch at your bedside?" That suggests a familiar enough relationship between the two that Ben would know that the bottle of scotch was something new.

And Widmore alluded to that when Ben first arrived when he said something along the lines of, "I was wondering when you would show up." At first I thought it was just bulsh*t bravado, but now I think he was quite literally waiting for Ben because Ben has dropped in many times before.

Also I noted that it was Ben who said, "I can't kill you." to Widmore. There was nothing said by Ben or Widmore about Widmore not being able to kill Ben. Obviously, Widmore doesn't want to kill Ben because Ben appears to be Widmore's key to the island. Is there a similarly practical reason which prevents Ben from killing Widmore?

Clementine: We saw two Bedouin horsemen randomly ride up to where Ben was, so a vehicle or communication device would likely be "liberated" no sooner than it was discovered. Not to mention the fact that it's in the middle of the bloody Sahara desert and the shifting sands would make a hiding place nigh on to impossible to find and even if it wasn't stolen or he did find it, the heat and sand and wind would likely render his equipment unusable.

#174. Posted by: undaunted at April 27, 2008 8:48 PM

Oh....and how did Widmore know Alex had been killed and the circumstances under which she had been killed? He taunted Ben about Ben being the one who was responsible for Alex's death. Keamy is the only person who could have told him.

#175. Posted by: undaunted at April 27, 2008 8:55 PM

re 171 ILBLxx
So it seems as though Ben lied about how he got there, unless he didn't.

When Sayid asked him how he got off the island he replied:
Ben: Came accross the Syrian boarder, really not that difficult --"
Sayid: How did you get off the island.
*(which implies that he didn't leave with everyone else)*
Ben: Your friend Desmond had a boatm remember? The Elizabeth, I follwed a heading to Figi, then I chartered a plane.
- - - -
I am not sure what you are suggesting. Two separate questions were answered. I believe he was honest when he answered them.
1) How'd you get here (to IRAQ)? = Syrian border. There are six countries he could have come from overland. Syrian is the 'leakiest'.
2) How'd you get off the island = on Des's boat. (though that may be a lie if he went thru a (thee) portal on the island or in the 'Looking Glass.)
- - - transcript - - -
SAYID: How did you get here?
BEN: I came across the Syrian border. It's really not as difficult as you might--
- - - then - - -
SAYID: How did you get off the island?
BEN: Your friend Desmond had a boat. Remember? The Elizabeth. I followed a heading to Fiji. Then I chartered a plane.

#176. Posted by: DocH at April 27, 2008 8:59 PM

@ DocH - 176
Sorry about that; I'm not sure what I was thinking anymore, but thanks for the clarification.

Anyway, that seemed to imply that Ben did not leave with everyone else. So I guess when the Oceanic 6 left the island, Ben stayed on it.

#177. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 27, 2008 9:34 PM

Ben told Michael he'd try to save the innocents on board the ship.

When Alex died, Ben demolished the ship's troops by calling Smokey.

Maybe Ben really felt that way, about not taking innocent lives.

Until "he changed the rules."

#178. Posted by: bill at April 28, 2008 12:08 AM

Of the O6, in current Island Time:

3 are on the beach
1 is on the freighter
1 is with team Sawyer
1 is with team Locke

wow.
only 5 episodes until they get off...
right???

#179. Posted by: Bill at April 28, 2008 12:15 AM

→ 177. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
Anyway, that seemed to imply that Ben did not leave with everyone else. So I guess when the Oceanic 6 left the island, Ben stayed on it.
- - - -
Could have left before, same time or after. (time distortions?) - just by different means...

#180. Posted by: DocH at April 28, 2008 12:59 AM

@154. Posted by: Clementine

re: "telsteelbat"

That is pretty wild. No stun version for me - I'd only end up zapping myself!

Which size to go for?

Soon, I will be Eric Cartman like, and will walk around saying "You will respect my au-tho-re-teee!"

#181. Posted by: shikotee at April 28, 2008 3:28 AM

Alright already, I was going to read thru them all so if I answered someone's thoughts, I would avoid being redundant, but a comment I just read has caused me to stop and retort.

Jump the shark? Are you kidding me? You think LOST is nearing the ramp and preparing to ride the air in a leather jacket and fly over Jaws?

If this is what you truly think, then you just don't get LOST. It may be an acquired taste, but I think this show is off the scope of being rated! The creators and writers take us down a road, make us stop, show us the rest of the road, but make us wait for another morsel of gravel before letting us go to the next turn. You have to watch this show with an open mind. It's not going to end next week. Hello!

-Sayid thought Ben was an "Oceanic 6 Paparazzi", which is why he said "why can't you leave me alone!" or something to that affect. Then he recognized Ben. What I missed the first viewing, was that Sayid then asked Ben, "how did you get off the island?" Hmm, did the Oceanic 6 leave thinking there was no other way off for those that stayed, does the island blow up when they go? Just a thought.

-I love Ben "Jason Bourne" Liunus. He did not kill the second desert guy, he only sent him to lala land with the butt end of the rifle.

-Speaking of the desert. I think there are "doors", Dharma doors, that portal to different Dharma bases. What desert did they find the polar bear with the logo? It's obvious Ben got in a tight spot in some cold place, I agree, Artic Base, and after being shot or sliced, he portaled out. Maybe thats why Penny was at the Artic base because she knew that was an original Dharma base that had a link to the island where her Desi was! And she was hoping the "door" would eventually open. And that the ONLY way to get to the island, Daddy's island, was thru a door, because it would be impossible to find it unless you just got lucky. Just a thought.

-I thik Bernard's role will increase from here on out. I think his hero status will gain momentum and he will be a major player in the rescue. He won't leave, but he will have a greater role on this show. And yes, he did say he learned to shoot in the Army, and for all you youngsters who learned what a blog was before morse code, they did teach that during the time he would have been in the military.

-Yes, Sawyer is becoming quite protective of nearly all that want to be safe and protected. I think he will go nuts, or somehow ballistic if Claire is killed or something. But I agree that now that Claire tasted death, and SAW CHARLIE, that she will have to remain on the island to live, ala Locke. I think she mentioned Charlie when Sawyer was waking her up because he came to her when she was "heading for the light" and told her to go back because she was not done. Maybe she has a ghost or aura around her, which is while Miles made the comment about her not being sure she was okay.

-Great epsiode, good review Mac.

Favorite Seen: Has to be Smokie's return to "Ekoize" the camo-guys, great word Mac.

Favorite Line: "You hurt one curly hair on his head, and I'll kill you." Sawyer to Locke. Locke's reply, "Fair enough."

And an earlier post was correct in the mafioso comments, touching the family, primarily women, is a no no. Even men to some degree, are referred back to the family for punishment.

I don't think there are two Ben's, thats even scarier. But I do think he had a part in Nadia's death. The guy Sayid killed may have worked for Ben, with a go between, which is why he loosened up when Ben introduced himself. And taking a message to Mr. Widmore could have been his next assignement. Ben didn't say, "I want you to take a message to your boss..." He called him Mr. Widmore.

Just remember, on LOST, NOTHING is said that is not important, and NOTHING happens, that is not important.

Keamy had better pray he got Rousseau thru and thru, she has torture tools.

Have a great day!

#182. Posted by: dcj3400 at April 28, 2008 10:01 AM

Didn't anyone else get this??

When Ben says he's going to kill Penny.

Widmore says you'll never find her.

Widmore says the island is mine and always will be.

Ben says you'll never find it.

Widmore says I guess the hunt is on for both of us.

I got the impression the reason Ben won't fine Penny is because she's on the island with Desmond and for some reason the island can't be found now.

Sorry if this has been said already.

#183. Posted by: steve dropjoy at April 28, 2008 10:22 AM

is there any chance that widmore and ben are sons of jacob?
and both are fighting for the ultimate inheritance - the island?

#184. Posted by: fanofvincent at April 28, 2008 10:51 AM

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I didn't see anybody mention this in the comments but does anyone else think that the "next name" that Ben is about to give to Sayid ( at the end of the Economist) is Penny's? or Desmond's?

They've gone to pains this season to establish a relationship between Sayid and Desmond and both characters are, to a large degree, motivated by their love for a woman. It would be a fascinating twist to have them face off, no?

#185. Posted by: holidaysinthesun at April 28, 2008 11:24 AM

@185. Posted by: holidaysinthesun

It did cross my mind - would Ben try to use Sayid to bump Penny?

How much about Penny does Sayid know? I would think that Desmond would have mentioned her first and last name while they are on the freighter? Or did he?

#186. Posted by: shikotee at April 28, 2008 12:06 PM

Anyone recall the episode where Smokey was repelled by the sonic fence around the other's village? Strange that Ben can control it - but it is kept out of the village by the fence? Could it be that he just turned off the fence - knowing it would come for the armed guys?

Also, anyone think Ben is responsible somehow for luring Desmond to the island - in an attempt to somehow flesh out Penelope? Possibly travelled back in time to set the whole thing up? Just a thought.

Speaking of Desmond's arrival at the island, how is it that a dharma worker was still manning the hatch, and that dharma was still making food drops, long after Ben had purged the island? Am I missing something?

#187. Posted by: Brian at April 28, 2008 12:17 PM

123 - Crispy
I don't think Ben 'let Alex die'...he really didn't think she would die. Her death was a complete and total shock to him. Apparently, the "rules" had never been changed before, so Ben had no reason to think they'd be changed at that moment...so he thought Alex was safe. Even in that impossible situation. He said what he said about Alex fully believing he'd have an opportunity to recant and apologize to her at some point in the near future.

133 - Trinity
Apparently, Sayid (like most men when stranded on an island for extended periods of time) subscribes to the mantra - if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with! (And Shannon was - well, you know, HOT.)

#188. Posted by: JoePike at April 28, 2008 12:17 PM

I'm not so sure I dig the story arc introduced by Ben's late night visit to Widmore. For me, the whole "rules" concept and Widmore's ability to change them just doesn't sit right with me in the mythology of the show we know so far. If the island has the ability to stop someone back in the states from committing suicide (Michael) it seems to me that any rules should be 'island' dictated, and should be unchangeable by an outside party such as Widmore.

But maybe Widmore isn't as 'outside' as I think. And obviously we need more info about these so called RULES! Like are they just between Ben and Charles, or do they apply to everyone that has anything to do with the island?

#189. Posted by: JoePike at April 28, 2008 12:22 PM

As I had said in Post #115, this game (however connected with the powers of the island) may be between Ben and Widmore...and whoever else...? No matter how evil and bad we may be led to believe Ben is, there has never really been a doubt about his love for Alex. No father would allow, even a fraction of a chance, the possibility of someone shooting his daughter in the head...right in front of him. Any father would give his life to save the life of his kid. He reassured Alex that everything would be okay...almost to say, not to worry, it's not within the rules for you to be killed. He's certain of it. That is why his reaction was utter shock and disbelief and of course, grief. That's why I do't struggle with the disbelief that he would "allow" her to die...he simply didn't believe she was going to.

#190. Posted by: boodle at April 28, 2008 1:02 PM

I am going to hold-off on the whole "Rules" debate until I see more, but, I will add that Jacks' "We have to go back" meltdown, in front of Kate, may translate to "We have to break the rules".

#191. Posted by: DocH at April 28, 2008 1:09 PM

Interesting thought... If you think about it, Hurley and Kate seemed to have the gumption that they "can't" go back...in line with some "rule" or something...

#192. Posted by: boodle at April 28, 2008 1:12 PM

Hmmm...DocH, I interpret Jack's "We have to go back!" meltdown as translating to "We shouldn't have broke/changed the rules by leaving, so we have to go back..."

#193. Posted by: JoePike at April 28, 2008 1:39 PM

No more MIF because MID(runk)!

Re: the 815 Pilot. Lapidus was originally scheduled to fly that plane, but do we know why he was replaced?

Re: Widmore and the Island. He says it's his, but we don't know for sure that he's ever been on it (yes,I've read the speculation above).

I totally like the idea that this is one big game between Ben and Widmore. I'm not sure I buy into them being related, though. But that doesn't explain why Ben can't kill Widmore. Then again, if Widmore HAS been to the Island, there's that whole Island-won't-let-you-die thing.

Plus, if it IS a Ben/Widmore game, how does Mr Paik fit in?

-187 Brian. Interesting idea about Ben simply turning off the fence. hmmmm

Finally, just when I didn't think that Cindy's Scarf made an appearance, I rewatched and - sure enough- Ben used the Scarf to tie up his arm. Ta-da!

#194. Posted by: lovelost at April 28, 2008 2:40 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/160 - I've got the solution for you. Firefly/Serenity. All available on DVD. 14 eps + the full-length movie, which wraps up all the loose ends. Nathan Fillion is SOOOOO fine!

#195. Posted by: hurling at April 28, 2008 3:39 PM

@ all re: Ben-Widmore relationship

I posted the idea of Ben and Widmore being related based upon the fact that neither one attempted to kill the other in the London apartment scene. It was clear that they had a long standing relationship and deep knowledge of each other and their habits. The only thing, or rule, which could possibly stop them from killing each other is being blood relatives.

Ben "believes" Widmore changed the rules by killing his daughter Alex, but since she was not truly a "blood" relative, Widmore would not have considered her off-limits. In addition, one could infer that Ben put her in harm's way by her leaving the compound which lead to her capture. In chess, that is called a gambit - - - losing a piece to gain position. This gambit however failed.

However, it is unclear whether this scene was a flash back or a flash forward, or a combination of the two. After Alex dies, Ben runs into his secret Time Machine room, goes to the arctic, the middle east, London and then to the island? I don't think it was in one trip but several. But it does confirm that when one island time trips, his or her knowledge from the island remains with them in the past or in the future.

So maybe the Ben-Widmore scene was a flash back, with Ben talking about the future death of Alex while Widmore believes he is talking about Ben being the monster who caused the death of Ben's mother, Emily.

Ben's mother died in the third trimester, just like all the other women who conceived on the island. That may be why Ben is so consumed about finding out the reason why women on the island die during childbirth. He is trying to rid himself of the blame (from Roger and Widmore) of killing Emily.

I think Ben's parents had been on the island. Ben was conceived on the island. When Roger returns with Ben, he is "upset" at his job classification believing he would have a better position. At that point, Widmore still had control of the island. He had no respect for either Roger or Ben. So Ben sought revenge against his father and grandfather by leading the rebellion. Ben sides with the other "natives" to get control of the island. But after the Purge and the first electromagnetic incident, the island's position changed and Widmore could not find it. Only after the Hatch explosion did Widmore find coordinates to retrace where the island is located, using Desmond as a pawn to gather that information.


#196. Posted by: welh at April 28, 2008 3:40 PM

@ dcj3400 - 182
"-I love Ben "Jason Bourne" Liunus. "

Do I have to give the "Ben is mine" speech again?

And grammatical mistake: Scene (not seen)

@ lovelost - 194
That's a good point about the whole "island won't let you die" thing.
... and the scarf! Haha!

@ hurling - 195
Haha, thanks.

@ welh - 196
The only thing that doesn't explain is the fact that Ben wasn't expecting Alex to die. He was quite surprised. So if he knew the future, that Charles would murder Alex, then he probably wouldn't have been so surprised about it.

#197. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 28, 2008 4:34 PM

@→ 197. ilovebenjaminlinusxx

"The only thing that doesn't explain is the fact that Ben wasn't expecting Alex to die. He was quite surprised. So if he knew the future, that Charles would murder Alex, then he probably wouldn't have been so surprised about it."

This is the problem with the time and space jumps.
Alex's death occurred on the island present; Ben goes to his time-transporter and apparently can either go back in time or in the future. So if he goes back in time and confronts Widmore about changing the rules, then the island "present" should change because he would not sent Alex away from the barracks. According the Constant theory, she would have died another way in a second "island present" time line. If he goes to the current off-island presence and confronts Widmore, I doubt he would have known what Ben was talking about since there is communication interference even to the ship let alone to London in real time. If he goes off-island in the future, as assumed in the October 2005 date in the episode, Widmore would have known Alex was dead. But Ben would have not waited 11 months to confront him about changing the rules.

So I don't see it as part of the known 2005 flash forward because Ben and Widmore never identified by name whose death changed the rules.

#198. Posted by: welh at April 28, 2008 4:55 PM

Now, that's all just some confusing shenanigans! I'm going under the assumption that Ben was referring to Alex when he accused Widmore of killing his daughter, and that Charles also was talking about Alex when he retorted that Ben was the one who killed "that poor girl".

Plus, you're assuming that after Alex died is when Ben went time-jumping. We really really don't know if that's true or not. I think he simply went in to his secret/secret lair to summon Smokey, and did that time travel thing later.

I mean, I know this is a complex show and everything...but I just don't think they're trying to fool or confuse us that much...

And we haven't been shown anything that would make us believe Ben was conceived on the island. Quite the contrary actually.

So until I'm proven wrong...
But keep the theories coming anyway. They're most entertaining!


I'm looking forward to some ultra-wiggy Claire-centric stuff coming up. One can only hope!

#199. Posted by: JoePike at April 28, 2008 5:11 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/160 - LOST may be on when you are a freshman (Spring '10), if you don't take a year off. The good news is that you may be able to take a class "LOST - Popular Culture, Mulit-media and the Internet - A Study in Modern Philosophy & Marketing". Heck, you may get your PhD along these lines.
- - - -
re: Bens' birth. Momma Linus did not die in the third trimester. She died post-partem, just barely. Roger Linus did not look like he had been to the island when we see he and young Ben arrive there. Now momma Linus, she may have been there without Roger. That might explain why the quirky Horace Goodspeed was lingering so close to Bens' birthplace in "Not in Portland". He may have been Ben's Dharma daddy (sample donor).
- - - -
I also think that the second trimester was the tricky one for island pregnancies and that few, if any, made it to the third trimester. If they did, they were soon gone.

#200. Posted by: DocH at April 28, 2008 5:32 PM

re 187
Yeah, I have been watching season 1 and 2 and I have been wondering why the Desmond was still there. Must be that Ben wanted him to think Dharma was still going so that Desmond would push the button and keep the island hidden. But why trust someone he doesn't control with such an important job????? Especially when the hatch was found. Ben must have know everything that was going on. Ethan would tell him.Why not take care of the button himself?????Sounds careless to me. And Ben is not careless.

#201. Posted by: berkyo at April 28, 2008 6:15 PM

-196 Welh says: Ben "believes" Widmore changed the rules by killing his daughter Alex, but since she was not truly a "blood" relative, Widmore would not have considered her off-limits.

Excellent point.

-200 DocH. Ooooh, I like the idea that Ben may have been a test-tube baby. Perhaps another Dharma experiment. That explains his special powers.

This episode was so intense and full of clues and storylines. WGNABB.

#202. Posted by: lovelost at April 28, 2008 7:07 PM

We make a lot of assumptions!

It could be that Ben cannot kill Widmore because Widmore has something Ben needs.

And it could be that what broke the rules was that Alex was Alex, not that Alex was Ben's daughter. For all we know, it was breaking the rules because Alex was a Hanso and no Hanso shall be murdered. Bottom line: We don't know anything except that a rule was broken.

I wonder if Widmore's nightmare's are retribution for his breaking the rules.

#203. Posted by: undaunted at April 28, 2008 10:47 PM

There's been an awful lot of speculating and assuming on very little data, here folks. The writers have said repeatedly that the only time travel in the show is of the mind, displacing into an earlier or later version of the body (a la Desmond). So I don't think Ben has a time machine in the basement, and if he's shown in Tunisia 10 months from present island time, it's a flash forward, not time travel.

#204. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 29, 2008 12:29 PM

#194 lovelost said: No more MIF because MID(runk)!

hey! I resemble that remark! No, not really. Just too much work to be done 'round here. I am up to post 194, and if I ever catch up hopefully I'll have something to add.

I did notice the whole scarf thing with Ben, though.

#205. Posted by: meg at April 29, 2008 2:27 PM

@ 204/ Cecil Rose

Except for the circumstantial evidence from Tunisia:

1. he wakes up in the desert during day light with no tracks/trail;
2. he wakes up with a parka on, and cold vapors
indicate he was just in a cold place ;
3. he does not know what date it is when he checks into the hotel.

#206. Posted by: welh at April 29, 2008 2:33 PM

Well, here's the thing... if you refer to one of mac's previous reviews:

"Charlotte, an anthropologist by trade, hails from England and likes to spend her free time digging up Dharma polar bear skeletons in the sands of Tunisia (let that sink in -- Charlotte's backstory shows her digging up a polar bear skeleton that's wearing a Dharma collar ... in Tunisia. What ... the hell ... is going on?)."

seems to me that the 'time-travelling device', or whatever the hell you want to refer to it as, ISN'T Ben's secret room, but rather, somewhere else on the island. Personally i think it has to do with the place that the others headed to, and where Ben sent Alex, Karl, and Danielle - the Temple. I believe a lot of the answers will be held there. How else would a dharma polar bear end up in a desert? seems to me that they escaped to a place they weren't supposed to go... and no, that wasn't Ben's house.

#207. Posted by: DriveShaft at April 29, 2008 2:35 PM

***** PODCAST SPOILERS *****


So here's a couple things that were mentioned by Lindeloff & Cuse:

- Ben actually did "summon" Smokey in his secret/secret room...but he was still worried about what would happen and that's why he wanted to get out of there pretty quickly. (Implying that Smokey is unpredictable, uncontrollable, and/or dangerous even to Ben).
- It's no coincidence that the polar bear was found in Tunisia, and Ben ended up in Tunisia in the desert.
- At some future point we will find out how Ben 'traveled' to Tunisia, and why he was wearing the Dharma jacket. But it will be a looooong story arc.
- The Ben/Widmore scene was actually shot in London, and they said that though B & W have a system of rules, there may be a higher force dictating these so called rules.
- In the Ji Yeon episode, they actually did make a mistake with the way Sun's name was written on the bag the nurse put her wedding ring in.

***** End Podcast Spoilers *****


I totally agree with you Cecil- Ben's desert experience was a flash forward. He did mysteriously travel, but he didn't necessarily time-travel.

#208. Posted by: JoePike at April 29, 2008 2:47 PM

Frequent lurker, first time poster here. Mac, I love the reviews, and you all have really insightful stuff to add.

A couple of random thoughts:

There's definitely some sort of teleportation system, presumably to multiple places on the globe. I'm thinking the Orchid is where it is. I know Ben's asks for the date, but time travel doesn't quite feel right in this situation. Before, when lost has employed time travel, it is consciousnesses that travel, not physical bodies.

I guess I take more of a magical realist attitude towards LOST, in that the world and the characters in it are portrayed very realistically, but occasionally things happen that seem to defy conventional explanation. This as opposed to fantasy or sci fi, which is how I'd classify "Heroes" (which I love, by the way). So a part of me always hopes that there will be a rational explanation for everything in the end, but it's also cool when something happens that is truly magical or miraculous.

I love Juliet (She's awesome, and easy on the eyes ;) ) and I love the Juliet-Jack romance storyline, but did anyone else get a sense from this episode's opening scene that the Jack-Kate thing is going to continue to be in play for quite some time? The look she gives Jack when she's sitting on the beach pulling the straps down on her tank top was...well, more than just friendly.

I love Jack to death, but he gets on my nerves sometimes. Well, frequently. Whoever mentionned that they hate his huffing and puffing is totally right. Also when he goes into Intense Jack mode, it's always the same ("Were you EVER....gonna take us off this island?" "Is THIS your destiny, John?" He's still amazing, though. In "Through the Looking Glass" I was absolutely blown away by Matthew Fox's performance in the flash-forward.

Ben rules. But he better not kill Penny, she and Desmond are both such awesome characters. I get more invested in Des than anyone else on the show, probably.... I got teary-eyed when he had that scene with Penny in "The Constant."

That's all I can think of for now. Lost is definitely the best show I've ever watched, and hopefully I'll start contributing to the blog comments more reguarly.

#209. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at April 29, 2008 4:20 PM

84. Posted by: Cecil Rose

@17 berkyo....

I think you're over-thinking, here.

Why are you always dissing someone? I think berkyo made a valid point. I do not believe we should criticize others in these postings. Your view points are your view points! If you can' say something nice about someone's posting, then don't say anything.


#210. Posted by: smitty at April 29, 2008 5:35 PM

The April 28 issue of TV Guide printed an interview with Darlton conducted by Jimmy Kimmel. It's funny and interesting, but not as complete as the 2-part interview posted on the TV Guide web site.

http://tinyurl.com/64ktnu

Wow. I just created my first tinyurl. (technology-challenged here; thanks Mac for making it so easy)

#211. Posted by: lovelost at April 29, 2008 5:44 PM

@ Jin's Flashlight - 209
So I can't exactly figure out if you're a girl or a boy... right now, to me, you are bisexual. (I know you're not, I'm just saying, right now, to me, you are).

I thought your name would reveal it, but when I got down there, it didn't. --Quite disappointing actually.

But YES... I HATE THE WAY JACK BREATHES!!! And that was me by the way...

@ DocH - 200
That'd be totally awesome. I tried to start a LOST club in my school, called, "The LOST Nerds" (haha, get it?)... Anyway, it was denied. I have two teachers that want to be advisors so I guess if I present my powerpoint presentation and mission statement to them, they may just approve it. Unfortunately, I should probably get that done sometime soon because next year is the last year I can do anything -- which actually means this year is the last year I can do anything.

#212. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 29, 2008 6:13 PM

@@@@@@@@@@@

I'm going far out on a limb here, but stick with me for a minute...

I think that the guy on the boat "Kevin Johnson" (the janitor guy)is actually Michael from the first couple seasons! Crazy, I know, but possible?

Also... could it be possible that the Island has something to do with Locke not having to use his wheelchair anymore? Just a crazy hypothesis...

@@@@@@@@@@@@@

#213. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at April 29, 2008 6:29 PM

It's official:
Mr_Naysayer IS MY IDOL. =]

Anyone notice that I haven't been posting my evil smiley?... I figured it scared you guys too much.

#214. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 29, 2008 6:42 PM

@@@@@@@@@

ilovebenjaminlinusxx - I figured you might appreciate that last post! Thanks... proud to be someone's idol... haha.

@@@@@@@@@

#215. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at April 29, 2008 7:40 PM

Er, not to make a bigger issue here than it needs to be, but in my experience, Cecil wouldn't intentionally diss anyone. "Be nice" is definitely a Lost Blog rule, but sometimes challenging a thought process can come across as challenging a person. I've been on both ends of that myself (and while I'm on the subject, apologies to anyone I ever unintentionally offended, mea culpa).

@Jin's Flashlight/#209: Hey, I'm a magical realist, too! Thanks for giving it a name. And your Intense Jack Mode speech pattern is spot on.

@Mr_Naysayer/#213: "Also... could it be possible that the Island has something to do with Locke not having to use his wheelchair anymore?" You mean it wasn't a case of spontaneous ambulation? Next you'll be telling me the sky is purple and you see dead people! Just keepin' it real, yo.

#216. Posted by: Clementine at April 29, 2008 10:57 PM

And re: the time vs. space travel debate

I guess it just never occurred to me that Ben wasn't time-traveling, but that makes sense. Maybe he always verifies the date when leaving the island, due to the effects of traveling through the "force-field." It's like the island is loosely anchored in time and floats around somewhat. Maybe Ben is double-checking that the island hasn't completely broken loose from its moorings yet. Or that he hasn't suddenly become susceptible to the "sickness" that causes people to time-travel. If he can get a tumor on an island that heals people, he must worry that his other "immunities" or specialness (Jacob's favor?) may also wear off.

I'm still liking the Vile Vortices theory, with the island in a separate reality at the end of the chute connected to all the Vortices.

#217. Posted by: Clementine at April 29, 2008 11:14 PM

@welh/112

"When we first met Doc Ray on the freighter, his scar on his cheek was healing."

Just discovered something potentially VERY important ... this statement is NOT true, but close!

When we FIRST see the doc in "The Constant," he has no wound of any kind on his cheek. When we next see him again in "Ji Yeon" he has the healing scar, right where the stitches are on the dead "beach doc" in TSoTtC!

Ostensibly, on-ship, very little time has passed between the first two eps ("The Constant" and "Ji Yeon"), yet the doc has miraculously gotten injured (cut to cheek requiring stitches) and healed (very little scar tissue left to be seen) in an unreasonably short period of time (all while Des and Sayid are still being kept in the doc's office!)!!!

Clearly (and I hope there is no argument here), the doc has "been away" for more than a few hours ... he went "somewhere in time" to get gashed on his cheek, and had time to recover (a few weeks?), before "returning" to the freighter in "Ji Yeon" to take them (Des & Sayid) to the captain!

Not only that, but "gashed doc with stitches" apparently got his throat slashed at some point and dumped overboard ...WTF? Yet according to the morse message in the last ep, doc is fine ... again, WTF?

We have timeline issues going on here, at the very least. Based simply on the "canon" evidence that we have, the doc HAD to have undergone some "real" time travel just to be back in "Ji Yeon" on the boat with a healing scar!

This doesn't even begin to introduce the "Rabbit #15" issues, although I'm starting to think this will be an important point ...

#218. Posted by: ealgumby at April 29, 2008 11:18 PM

@ealgumby/218

Okay, here the pics to prove this as canon:

tinyurl.com/6y65uw

There is SOMETHING going on here my friends! Props to welh for first pointing this out!

I personally believe we have a "Rabbit #15" doc on our hands, who disappeared for quite a while between meeting Des/Sayid and taking them to the captain!

Anyone care to challenge this? Seriously, I want to hear another explanation!

#219. Posted by: ealgumby at April 29, 2008 11:42 PM

Okay guys/gals, going WAY out there with this theory!

Have been thinking about the whole duplicate-doc thing and the rabbit #15 thing, and have come to this startling possibility (don't laugh too hard ... just a theory) ...

Suppose "the others" is actually a term for LITERALLY "the others" as might be achieved through time travel?

Okay, like I said, hold your laughter ... it actually makes some sense. If someone had the ability to travel back in time to the same time "they" already existed, wouldn't there be "an original" and "an other?"

As suggested in the "Orchid Video" with rabbit #15, the "others" should not come in contact with "the originals." But what if "the others" were people with the ability to think for themselves?

What if "the others" came from the future, and eliminated "the originals" in some effort to change the timeline? Maybe ALL (or most?) of the others are Dharma people, who "came back" in Ben's purge, to eliminate "the originals?"

Whether for good or bad remains to be seen (maybe the originals were about to unleash Armegeddon, in which case the others would be good ... or maybe the others are evil, trying to subdue the valiant efforts of the originals?).

The whole dup-doc concept got me to thinking about this ... if the doc can be duplicated like rabbit #15, why not the rest? What would happen ... IF that happened?

Kinda makes sense to me in a weird way, with regard to the otherwise cryptic terminology of "the others" ... maybe they ARE literally other copies of people, from the future?

Also makes sense in an odd way in terms of people on (off maybe ... Regina) the island killing themselves (Bea Klugh), or "coming back from the dead" ala Mikhail!

Not as stupid as as it might seem at first ...

#220. Posted by: ealgumby at April 30, 2008 12:13 AM

@ILBLXX:

I'm a guy, but after rereading my post I can see how you might be confused. So don't worry, I won't be stealing Ben from you anytime soon.

#221. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at April 30, 2008 2:35 AM

Gumby - I really like your Original vs. Others line of reasoning. Reminds me of the Michael Keaton's Multiplicity movie. Or the ending of The Prestige.

Maybe the island is actually a time-travelers vacation destination - a sci-fi Club Med if you will - and Smoky is the island bouncer (time's up...you go home now) or Social Director like Julie from the Love Boat. Or maybe Smoky's more like Gort. Ooooh...I like that one. Smoky is Gort from The Day The Earth Stood Still.

I can accept Ben's stepping into an energizer (Where's Scotty?) and suddenly appearing in Tunisia as long as it stays within the mythology of the show. But how does he get back to the island? There can't be an infinite number of submarines lurking in every harbor...

Does he teleport back? Does he take a plane to LA and then Nautilus from there? Is he on some kind of timer that automatically yanks him back when the time runs out? Could be awkward if he's en flagrante...

#222. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 30, 2008 8:40 AM

- 220 Ealgumby

That's not as 'out there' of a theory as you think...it's actually pretty cool. The main issue though is that the only verified back-in-time travel we've seen has been consciousness travel, ala Desmond. That's the angle Lost has chosen to take with their time travel concept. Dez's present time physical body didn't go back with him.

HOWEVER, there really was some physical duality going on with Bugs Bunny that hasn't been explained yet...so I'll definitely not discount your theory until we get more info on the Peter Rabbit situation and why they were so freaked out in the Orchid vid that the funny bunnies might get too close to each other...

#223. Posted by: JoePike at April 30, 2008 8:51 AM

#220 ealgumby

your theory reminds me of the movie timecop with jean-claude van damm. if you havent seen it, its worth checking out,definitely won of his better movies.

peace&love to all

#224. Posted by: tiffani at April 30, 2008 10:04 AM

@ealgumby - I think that "Others" theory takes the cake! Excellent!

Naysayer - maybe the guy on the boat is Michael...never even crossed my mind before!!!! You are genious!!

#225. Posted by: meg at April 30, 2008 11:09 AM

@213/Mr_Naysayer "I think that the guy on the boat "Kevin Johnson" (the janitor guy) is actually Michael from the first couple seasons! Crazy, I know, but possible?"

Interesting theory, but I have to disagree. (Though I did check the credits and found that both characters are played by the same actor, I think this is simply due to Lost as a struggling show having to watch its budget closely and not wanting to have to add more actors to the payroll.)

Several items to prove my point:

1) The producers have taken steps to cleverly disguise the fact that the two characters are played by the same actor.
a) They cleverly hid Michael for a season so that we would forget what he looked like

b) Kevin's hair is shorter than Michael's

c) Michael's hair is longer than Kevin's

2) In spite of being in two episodes to date and even being featured in one, Kevin has not once uttered the word, "Walt." Michael, on the other hand, suffers from a maledy bordering on Tourette Syndrome which causes him to blurt out, "WAAAAAAALT!" every 15 minutes (otherwise the sky will turn purple.)

Some would counter with a theory that Michael simply spent his time in NY after being rescued getting therapy and therefore, no longer suffers from said maledy. I would point out that the timeline simply does not allow for it.

3) Some differences are more subtle. At the end of season 2, Micheal DRIVES a boat. In season 4, Kevin RIDES in a boat. Big difference there - one easily overlooked by the untrained eye.

I could go on but I believe I have made my case.

#226. Posted by: bcre8ve at April 30, 2008 12:14 PM

joepike #223

your mention of the orchid video and the concern that the bunnies not get close to each other....Is that why Ben kept his distance from Widmore in the penthouse? Had Ben taken Widmore up on an offer of a drink, would Widmore have moved to the other side of the room? We have to watch for their proximity to one another in future episodes. My guess: They will never touch each other until it is time for them both to die.

I think Mr.Paik is in this up to his neck; I think he is bankrolling the freighter "rescue" and Widmore is overseeing the operation. I think that is why Sun (but not Jin) got off the island.

#227. Posted by: undaunted at April 30, 2008 12:27 PM

@226/bcre8ve


Seems like the further in the week we get from last Thursday and the closer we get to this Thursday, the theories seem to get more and more profound and enlightening. Thanks for the Kevin/Michael insight...still cracking up!!!

#228. Posted by: boodle at April 30, 2008 12:28 PM

I like the "Other" theory too. That might explain the whispering. Voices slipping through from another time discussing how the course correction is going or should go.

And I am not bothered by people dissing my Lost views. I get it all the time from my family ;)

#229. Posted by: berkyo at April 30, 2008 12:54 PM

@228/boodle "Seems like the further in the week we get from last Thursday and the closer we get to this Thursday, the theories seem to get more and more profound and enlightening."

Thank you. How very observant of you. I have graphed your observation below. I do hereby designate this the "Boodle Profoundity & Enlightenment Curve."


T1
|--|--|--|--|
|x
|xx
|xxx
|xxxxx
|xxxxxxx
|xxxxxxxxx
|xxxxxxxxxxxx
|--|--|--|--| Enlightenment
T2

T1= Thursday 1
T2= Thursday 2

#230. Posted by: bcre8ve at April 30, 2008 1:02 PM

Bill #179:
I don't think any of us would deem the members of the execution squad as "innocents". So, if killing of innocents is breaking the rules (and we don't know that it is) then Ben is still inside the perimeter of the rules.

I don't think Ben actually controls Old Smokey; he just turned off the mechanism which prevents him access to the compound and Smokey did what Smokey does. Smokey might just as easily have gone after one of Ben's party. And I think that is the only thing Ben did while he was in The Basement...no traveling to future, past, or place. He just turned off the mechanism that contains Smokey and then he came back upstairs.

I am certain Miles knows Claire is going to die. He can smell it on her (or however it is he knows). Perhaps she will dies of an injury sustained in the explosion? For instance, perhaps she hit her head and a pre-existing aneurysm burst. Did she sustain an earlier head injury in the show?

If Claire complains of a headache, that will be the beginning of the end for her.

#231. Posted by: undaunted at April 30, 2008 1:07 PM

Say, hypothetically, that I am a casual (yet serious) viewer. I watch every week, but do not have time for "enhanced" versions of the show, and that I do not have a computer to research the show, listen to podcasts, or to see "tease" videos like the 'missing pieces' or the Orchid video. Now give me a unified theory that doesn't include rabbit #15 and the Orchid. Can it be done?

Note: I think the fact that Ben had a gash on his side and Doc Ray had an apparently deadly gash upstairs... just minutes apart on the same show, may have something to do with one another. [Freighter scientists/thugs controlled the 'portal' and Ben had to fight his way to, then into it, just to escape the fallen/falling island? Doc Ray was more than just a medico - he has smarts on 'the sickness' that affects so many?]

#232. Posted by: MorBid0 at April 30, 2008 1:29 PM

@210 smitty said:

>>84. Posted by: Cecil Rose
>>>@17 berkyo....
>>>I think you're over-thinking, here.

>Why are you always dissing someone? I think berkyo made a valid point.

My apologies to both berkyo and smitty. I certainly never meant to stifle comment, nor to dis anyone, just to caution against extrapolating too much from too little evidence. I’ll try to make myself clearer in the future,

o-----

@211 lovelost:

Thanks for the link – very informative.

o-----

@216 Clementine:

Thank you.

o-----

@218-220 ealgumby hypothesized:

Thanks for the pics, and the speculation is not in the least stupid, especially given the Orchid video, which C&L have said will be seen on the show by season’s end.

Interesting idea on the term “the others”. Now I’m trying to bend my mind back to season one and figure out where the term came from. I don’t recall hearing any of the Others refer to themselves as such. Other than ironically, as in Juliette’s “It’s not easy being an other” explaining her why they have psychoanalysts. Did Rousseau introduce the term, or did the Losties come up with it?

It still doesn’t require time travel to have duplicates, however. Simple matter transmission (teleportation) will do. SF fans have debated endlessly the implication of Star-Trek-like teleportation. If the device breaks down your atoms ‘here’, then sends the information ‘there’ where an ‘identical you’ is assembled out of raw elements, is it really the same ‘you’ that walked into the sending machine? What if the breaking down is not a necessary part of the sending process – what if you can non-destructively scan the person/thing to be sent. Then you’ve essentially got a matter duplicator, and only the available energy and raw materials dictate how much of anything you can have – a fabulous source of wealth – if the energy can be provided. Might it even constitute a “magic box” that could produce anything you wanted? Or a person from far away?

But, when you duplicate living people, complications are introduced. If the duplication is accurate enough, there’s no original/duplicate distinction to be made – you have two identical copies, at least up to the time of the duplication, at which points their life experiences diverge. Maybe one gets a cheek injury some time back, say, while one remains unblemished.

Or maybe the duplication process isn’t perfect say, and one creates a duplicate with a missing limb? We know anyone like that? Maybe Dr. Marvin Candle, Dr. Mark Wickmund, and Dr. Edgar Halliwax are three different people (now), duplicates of an original, with three different names to keep them straight.


Leading to...

o-----

@222 ransomjackson asked:

>I can accept Ben's stepping into [a teleporter] and suddenly appearing in Tunisia as long as it stays within the mythology of the show. But how does he get back to the island? There can't be an infinite number of submarines lurking in every harbor...

>Does he teleport back? Does he take a plane to LA and then Nautilus from there? Is he on some kind of timer that automatically yanks him back when the time runs out? Could be awkward if he's en flagrante...

Maybe he doesn’t get back. Maybe the Ben we see is a duplicate with a limited lifetime... He does his task and then disintegrates, while the original-recipe Ben remains behind on the island. Maybe Ben’s done this hundreds of time before. (One problem with this theory, the original gets none of the information/life experience of the duplicate.)

o-----

@223 JoePike chimed in that:

>...so I'll definitely not discount your theory until we get more info on the Peter Rabbit situation and why they were so freaked out in the Orchid vid that the funny bunnies might get too close to each other...

Not sure what the reason for that might be, either. Unless the duplicates are made of antimatter... Nah, the lack of smoking holes belies that possibility.

o-----

@232 MorBid0:

>Say, hypothetically, that I am a casual (yet serious) viewer. I watch every week, but do not have time for "enhanced" versions of the show, and that I do not have a computer to research the show, listen to podcasts, or to see "tease" videos like the 'missing pieces' or the Orchid video. Now give me a unified theory that doesn't include rabbit #15 and the Orchid. Can it be done?

I believe the point will shortly become moot, as the writers have indicated the Losties will see The Orchid (and presumably the video) before the current season's end.

#233. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 30, 2008 1:50 PM

re 233. Posted by:
I believe the point will shortly become moot, as the writers have ...[deleted]... before the current season's end.
-----
That one probably needed the dreaded
***** SPOILER *****
tag on it.
Still the question - unified theory - for the masses that don't follow all of the unaired/internet media that is released?

#234. Posted by: MorBid0 at April 30, 2008 2:12 PM

@@@@@@@@@

becr8tive - I'm glad you agree... I thought my theory was totally wishy-washy, so I'm glad it might sound plausible...

I'm also starting to think that the guy from the earlier seasons that rode in the hot air balloon (Henry Gale) is that same guy Ben from the other night's episode...? Crazy... maybe, but just throwin' it out there...

????

@@@@@@@@

#235. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at April 30, 2008 2:39 PM

MorBidO:

The same unified theory is possible with or without the extra-show information.

For instance:
When Doc Ray shows up dead on the beach with a newly stitched cheek wound while simutaneously being alive on the freighter (or so we are told) with a mostly healed cheek wound then it isn't hard to consider that there might have been two Dr. Ray's. And from there we ask ourselves: Is he a clone? If he is a clone, how did he get to be the same age as his original? Is he a another him from another time dimension? If he is, what is the nature of that duplication?
Or is it as simple as this: That isn't Dr. Ray on the beach, it is his identical twin brother Steve. One doesn't have to be aware of the Bad Twin thing to wonder if the phenomenon of two of the same guy could be explained by a twin.

The Orchid video (and all I know about it is what I've read) appears to duplicate (no pun intended) what we see with Dr. Ray, so it really isn't giving any information we didn't get from the show. Unless the video also explains the cause.

#236. Posted by: undaunted at April 30, 2008 2:43 PM

The duplication theme is not a new concept. Early in the show, it was theorized that since the 815ers would not survive a plane crash, their bodies and minds were replicated when they went through the island's electromagnetic field. Is was also the rationale on how Jack's dad was roaming around, Kate's horse, why Locke could walk or Eko's plane were found on the island: they were deep emotional memories of the passengers.

However, multiple bodies may have to be explained by a coherent explanation of the show's concept of time. Linear time (straight line past, present and future) vs. multiple layers of time in space (like an onion skin) that if there is breach between layers, separate time lines will intersect in the same space causing "duplicate" persons to appear.


#237. Posted by: welh at April 30, 2008 2:44 PM


Cecil Rose: "My apologies to both berkyo and smitty. I certainly never meant to stifle comment, nor to dis anyone, just to caution against extrapolating too much from too little evidence. I’ll try to make myself clearer in the future."

I know your apology is absolutely sincere because you are always gracious and polite. But I want you to know I also see the humor in it.

#238. Posted by: undaunted at April 30, 2008 2:50 PM

@234 MorBid0:

Good point. What say ye, everyone? Are announcements by the writing staff spoilers? (For myself, I don;t think they ever give away anything terribly important in advance, though they do clarify stuff we've already seen.)

How about official videos on the ABC website?

Lost Experience?

#239. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 30, 2008 3:07 PM

re: 239. Posted by
-----
I think if the producers are talking about what has already aired, then it is nowhere near spoilerish. If they are talking about what to expect down the road, then yes. I am not saying don't discuss it.

I am just asking for the courtesy of the ***SPOILER*** tag. I can't UNread things, but I can skip ahead to the
***END SPOLIER*** logo.

#240. Posted by: MorBid0 at April 30, 2008 4:04 PM

In trying to find as many screencaps of Dead Doc Ray to piece together a time line, I found some interesting clues on where the freighter is located.

When we first saw Regina, she was reading a book upside down and looked dazed. She was told to see the captain. The next we see her in chains jumping off the ship in an apparent suicide. The crew starts to go after her, but the captain tells them not to interfere. Now where did we see this scene before? When a weighted Charlie swam down to the Looking Glass station. So I think Regina is alive in an underwater station waiting for Ben or the Captain's further orders.

I believe the freighter is located above an underwater Dharma station. That's why Ben wanted Michael to disable the ship to keep it in place. It is also why Ben was shocked that Michael attempted to blow it up because the debris could have damaged/destroyed this underwater station.

This would put Ben's "man on the boat" comment as a red herring: the boat crew, including the Captain, Regina and Michael, would be Ben's operatives, with the exception of the military-Keamey soldier forces being Widmore's men.

This also could lead to the possibility that Dharma stations are not confined to the island. That the stations could be anywhere on the globe, including under the Tunisian desert or at the arctic circle.

#241. Posted by: welh at April 30, 2008 4:14 PM

What if Hurley was apologizing to Jack for *this* decision to go with Locke - to see Jacob, thus abandoning Sawyer and Claire - rather than his earlier decision - to go to the barracks?

Just like the conversation between Ben and Widmore, it's tempting to make too many assumptions about pronouns without antecedents, which might be still to come in future episodes. (Like, so who's in the coffin?)

#242. Posted by: LockeBox at April 30, 2008 4:55 PM

@ ealgumby
That would explain the Richard thing... I guess.

Good theory though! Me gusta.

@ Jin's Flashlight - 221
Excellent! And yes, that was confusing. Usually guys don't say they "love" other guys.

@ bcre8ve - 226
There are only a few people in this world who could prove something like you just did. LOVE ITTTTT

Hey, you guys -- I think Charles Widmore knows Ben!

I know, I killed it. I was going to say something along the lines of, "Eko's dead" or "Boone fell from a plane" but I just realized, we don't actually know anything.

Who knows if Eko is actually dead? WE DON'T!

This time thing is confusing.
Everything is relative.
LOST has no absolutes.

@ undaunted - 231
Ben didn't seem to be afraid of Smokey... so I don't know.

@ Cecil Rose - 233
I was actually going to say the same thing -- I think the Losties came up with the term "the others". None of the others have referred to themselves as "the others", so yeah.

I'm not sure the LOST writers would make something so technology-advanced (teleporting). Once again, you never know... we're just speculating.

@ Mr_Naysayer
Glad you feel that way! I have high expectations for my idols. =]

Why does no one ever care about my evil smiley?!?!?

LOST is one of those shows where you HAVE to do the "extra work"... for those who don't, I usually advise them to not watch it. Unless they've seen every episode since the first episode of the first season and paid great attention to them.

#243. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 30, 2008 5:10 PM

Yooooo Lockebox - 242 where did you come from? And such a great thought! I do not believe anyone said that before... unless they did, but I don't think so.

Kudos to you!

(sorry if someone said that before he/she did).

#244. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 30, 2008 5:30 PM

@welh/241

Re screencaps of Dead Doc Ray ... I posted a link to three (from "The Constant" when he first meet him [no injury], "Ji Yeon" when we see him next [healing injury], and "TSoTtC" [dead doc with fresh, stitched inury]).

(also @undaunted/236) ...

I agree this evidence points to some kind of duplication (time travel most likely, given the other clues we have received to date), but if "no-injury-Doc" is still up and around, then "dead-stitched-doc" must have been duplicated as well, since "healing-faced-doc" was still around in Ji Yeon.

Thanks for reminding me about the "Bad Twin" thing too, undaunted ... this actually works well with my "duplicated others" theory ... "the others" are the "bad twins" from the future that killed off the "good twin" originals.

The duplicate-doc evidence is too profound to ignore (and I also agree it negates the necessity for casual viewers to have seen the Orchid vid) ...

#245. Posted by: ealgumby at April 30, 2008 6:45 PM

@welh/241

Oops, forget to mention the pics link is posted in #219 ...

tinyurl.com/6y65uw

#246. Posted by: ealgumby at April 30, 2008 6:46 PM

@MorBid0/232
"Now give me a unified theory that doesn't include rabbit #15 and the Orchid. Can it be done?"

I understand your point, but ultimately think it is irrelevant ... how much did we know after Ep 1, S1? Ep 1, S2?

Not trying to be flippant ... this is a work in progress, and each and every epi gives another piece of the puzzle. Anything presented in the interviews, enhanced eps, mobisodes, etc. is supplementary to the show, and not essential to the slow clarification we are getting each week. For the most part (Orchid Vid the only potentially strong exception), these alternate sources merely serve to confirm/deny theories which have already been presented in fan forums, and nothing is presented which will not eventually be hit upon in the show itself (according to the producers, not me).

In the Lost Theory thread, vacc and I both present analogies to describe this plot evolution (vacc used a developing Polaroid pic, I referenced a slowly completing Wheel Of Fortune puzzle). Casual viewers do not need to see the supplementary info (nor read theories posted on sites like this) to follow along with the show ... we are all in the same boat, and no one outside of the writing staff has the "big picture" of what will eventually transpire.

#247. Posted by: ealgumby at April 30, 2008 7:03 PM

Since we're getting so close to Thursday, started thinking about the subject of tomorrow night's episode (or so it's been presented). I know that the mystery and questions of Lost can't even be solved or answered for episodes that have aired. So why ask about future episodes...? Just thinking about it. We all know that everything that happens, that's seen on Lost means something. I wonder about tomorrow's episode. The description of the episode is: "Kate and Juliet must work together to save Jack's life." On the surface, seems to me that this is some typical story line for your run-of-the-mill night time drama, etc. Will be interesting to see how Jack almost dying from an appendicitis has to do with time travel, Ben/Widmore family tree, who's in the coffin (thanks LockeBox...almost forgot about that mystery...), etc. Just getting psyched about tomorrow!

#248. Posted by: boodle at April 30, 2008 7:11 PM

Danielle We were coming back from the Black Rock. It was them. They were the carriers.
Sayid Who were the carriers?
Danielle The others.
Sayid What others? What is the Black Rock? Have you seen other people on this island?


This is a transcript from Solitary Season 1. We first got the term "others" from Daniel in this episode

#249. Posted by: btly at April 30, 2008 7:22 PM

@boodle/228
@bcre8ve/230
"Boodle Profoundity & Enlightenment Curve"

Very good!

Reminds me of Thomas Kuhn's "paradigm" theory, first presented in his monumental "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" ...

It all starts with presentation of a new idea, based upon some available evidence. Slowly, people begin to buy into the new idea, and expound upon it with additional evidence. Soon, the "new idea" is accepted as "fact" (the paradigm), to the point where subsequent new ideas are initially rejected off-hand, often as bordering on heresy ... until proven otherwise.

Thus starts the new cycle, and soon everyone is joking about how foolish people used to be, to believe in the "obvious" falsehood of the old theory, when the "new theory" is clearly "truth." Until replaced in the next cycle, and subsequent "correct" paradigm.

What a workshop this show offers in support of Kuhn! Each new epi provides insights which blow the previous week's paradigm out of the water ... because, of course, now we know the "truth" (until next week).

#250. Posted by: ealgumby at April 30, 2008 7:29 PM

@undaunted/231
"I don't think Ben actually controls Old Smokey; he just turned off the mechanism which prevents him access to the compound and Smokey did what Smokey does. Smokey might just as easily have gone after one of Ben's party. And I think that is the only thing Ben did while he was in The Basement"

I agree that makes perfect sense. Not to argue, just to ask ... why did he come back all filthy? I think it IS inconsistent with the "mythology" presented thus far for there to be a "portal" in the basement, but have to wonder about all that dirt on him ... there MUST be a reason behind it, as it was too obviously presented, for it not be some kind of clue. But what? Ideas?

#251. Posted by: ealgumby at April 30, 2008 7:59 PM

@undaunted/236
(re @ealgumby/245)

BTW, I understand your original point ... was just trying to show that for the "twin doc" theory to be correct, it must at least be an "identical triplets doc" theory, with two of them getting coincidentally identical cheek injuries at different times ... in other words, not likely.

I suspect you think that already, but just wanted to clarify that I didn't misinterpret your post, in case there was any question.

#252. Posted by: ealgumby at April 30, 2008 8:16 PM

@ealgumby/251

Yes...also wonder about dirty Ben after he emerges from the secret basement. You see his arms and hands close up when he is over Alex and saying good-bye to her. His face and neck are dirty, but his forearms and hands are completely covered. He was digging...but digging what...where...and why...?

#253. Posted by: boodle at April 30, 2008 8:17 PM

***SPOILER***

Just to be safe, added the spoiler tag, but don't really think it's necessary ...

Wanted to clarify what has (as canon)been "established" re time travel ...

(1) The producers have confirmed that "consciuosness" time travel is canon (aka Desmond). However, they have NOT declared that time travel on the show is limited to such.

(2) From "The Constant" enhanced epi ... (while in Faraday's lab with Des):
"One of the equations on the chalkboard
is the Kerr metric equation
which some scientists believe
implies the existence of time travel."

For the science geeks out there (me too), the Kerr metric posits the existence of two "horizons" around a rotating black hole ... the commonly (now) accepted view that nothing can ever escape a black hole's "event horizon" only applies to the inner horizon, according to the Kerr metric. It is also theoretically possible for a traveler/object to accelerate toward the black hole, and pass between the horizons in such a manner that (given the correct entry course), the traveler will be able to exit the outer horizon in a potentially different space-time "location" than would "conventionally" be expected, due to "frame-dragging" effects. This concept is often presented in terms of "time cone diagrams" (also seen on Dan's board).

In short, the traveler can theoretically "time travel" as well as "space travel" or any combination thereof, given the correct "exact" course upon approach to the rotating black hole (among the options is, of course, no resultant change in time or place).

I (meaning me, no canon here) believe the whole "315 or 305" thing is about the correct course to produce no time/space offset upon exit from the horizon traversal ... i.e., how to go "through" and end up on/off the island without ending up in Tunisia or a different time. However, according to the canonical Kerr metric theory, one "could" plot a course toward the black hole (with exact knowledge of the horizon geometry) to end up where/whenever desired, including in the past where "the traveler" might already exist (hence the possibility of the others/originals conundrum).

(3) The producers confirm there will be no "time travel paradoxes" induced on the show (i.e., you go back in time and kill your dad before you were born, so how did you exist to go back in time to do so?). While not canonically confirmed as such, the only recognized scientific theory which addresses this is the "Novikov Principle." Novikov suggests that going back in time CANNOT disrupt the "ultimate" timeline, and any induced "wrinkles" will somehow be "course-corrected" to produce the same ultimate result at the point when the traveler went back in time. This preserves the "objective" (read "God's" if you will) timeline, and prevents the possibility of paradox-inducing actions.

I (again, ME only, not canonical) suggest this is what is meant by "the rules." Exactly when the "ultimate" timeline must be course-corrected to maintain the stability of the universe is not defined by Novikov, leaving open the possibility that Widmore has "changed the rules" from Ben's perspective, but things MUST eventually resolve themselves such that space-time is not ripped asunder (according to the Novikov Principle).

This MAY include both Alex and/or Penny dying, and NOT violate the "ultimate" timeline. Just more "course-corrections" may be required along the way ...

***END SPOILER***

#254. Posted by: ealgumby at April 30, 2008 8:52 PM

I may be posting this very late (I'm re-catching up on posts now) but:

@196/welh - Ben's mother didn't die in the third trimester, per se. She died in actual childbirth, and not on the island from what I can recall. Ben's father came to the island long after his mom's death. So Ben trying to find redemption in some way by curing the certain death sentence of those impregnated on the island doesn't 100% fit your idea. It may be we'll find out some time this season or some future season that his childhood girlfriend ended up being his wife or at the very least soon-to-be mother of his child and died, thus causing his obsession with finding a solution.

Regarding those positing Ben could/would know Alex was to be killed or fixing things by going into the past, remember that Ben definitely didn't know the murder squad from the freighter was on the island until the sonic wall was taken down (and not by him but by Alex, for those that mentioned he took it down himself), nor did he know they would kill Alex. Those two things were genuine surprises to him. The idea of him going into the past to "fix" things doesn't seem to be an option to him based on his actions/reactions. That leaves him only revenge.

I have to firmly agree with @206/welh regarding the time travel vs mind travel issue here. This is the first confirmed demonstration of time travel from what I can tell. There are hints in other episodes, but never hard-and-fast confirmation that appears to come from this ep.

#255. Posted by: LostedIt at April 30, 2008 10:06 PM

First my response to dcj3400
i just do not watch lost and accept its flaws blindly. The show is top class, but it is loosing viewer ship. This would be a sad day for LOST fans. I just want to caution the writers and hope they resist leaning to heavily on spy stuff and continue favoring the theological/technological debate. I did not say it had jumped, but it runs the danger of becoming predictable.

---Thank you Cecil Rose. I agree with no time travel. If this a plot line, I swear I will stop watching. Promise.

---Great points about the interchange between Ben and Sayid on how he got to Iraq. No one can trust Ben he's a manipulative liar and will do anything in possible to get things "right".

---DocH> Your post are always ahead of the game.
@200 re: Bens' birth. Momma Linus did not die in the third trimester. She died post-partem, just barely. Roger Linus did not look like he had been to the island when we see he and young Ben arrive there. Now momma Linus, she may have been there without Roger. That might explain why the quirky Horace Goodspeed was lingering so close to Bens' birthplace in "Not in Portland". He may have been Ben's Dharma daddy (sample donor).

I also think that the second trimester was the tricky one for island pregnancies and that few, if any, made it to the third trimester. If they did, they were soon gone.

DocH would you venture to guess that Roger Linus is not Ben's real father? or is he? Ben became a simpleton on the island like Roger, but the "natives" [Are they from the Black Rock?] thought him, Ben, special enough to recruit him as their leader.
Based on this info, I believe Widmore stole the island from "natives" and did not deem Ben "special", or was Ben a kept secret from the Dharma Project by another "native" recruit. This would be the couple that was close by when Ben was born which offered Roger a job. Dunno, just throwing it out there.

--- Tunisia still remains a mystery. Good posts on its importance which is just as important as the Arctic Station to me. The backstory does suggest its importance, and Ben appears to have stayed at that Hotel many times under the same alias. This is what I think of it after reading the other posts and trying to piece all the info together.

There are multiple stations which explain why Ben was wearing a PARKA in Tunisia, POLAR BEAR on the island and Tunisia, and Penny in the Arctic. The Arctic station is a missing link, and is more important that Tunisia. The Arctic Station is a transport point, like customs or something like that. Its a like a fulcrum and maybe some physics can explain its the part.

---That's All

#256. Posted by: TruRuan at April 30, 2008 10:40 PM

If the ability to time travel is in body, not just consiousness, would that explain how Tom could be in New York when the timeline seems to be impossible? (I don't remember it exactly, but I know some people went into detail about how the timeline was off)

What if Ben isn't the only one who can time travel? If the Temple really is the portal and Ben sent the rest of the others there, maybe some of the others are out there doing stuff for Ben.

What if that's the way the 6 get off the island? That would explain why Aaron looks so much older off the island or why people assume he's Kate's son, but if that were the case, then
Sun's baby would have already been
born. Unless, they time travelled to different times in the future.

I don't know, just guessing here. I don't understand all the scientic proof things you guys come up with, but I enjoy reading all of them.

#257. Posted by: LostMamacita at May 1, 2008 11:47 AM

LOST is awesome. For all of you that are dissing it -- You suck. (I guess I kind of went against the whole "no dissing" rule, but I had to... so... sorry).

#258. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 1, 2008 11:55 AM

@249 btly posted:

>Danielle: We were coming back from the Black Rock. It was them. They were the carriers.
>Sayid Who were the carriers?
>Danielle The others.
>("Solitary" Season 1)

Thanks for the research, btly. I had a feeing it was from the Losties or through Danielle.

In fact, we've NEVER, as far as I can recall, heard what term the Others use for themselves, and I posted a while back that this is probably significant - to know how they think of themselves (Dharma called them "hostiles") would probably give too much away at this point.

#259. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 1, 2008 12:05 PM

I must have been drinking w/Meg the first two times I watched this ep. Upon third viewing last night, some things jumped out at me.

Ben was sporting Cindy's scarf around his neck the whole time he was in Irag! What a fashionista. Next thing ya know, he'll be wearing man-pris.

Classic Sawyer line: "Oh, so 14J is the code for the pizza boy?"

When Ben realizes that Alex has been captured, he must have thought about his last words to her: "Your mother will protect you." Maybe that was the rule broken... killing Rousseau.

When Sayid first follows Ben, he seems genuinely surprised that it's Ben. He first says, angrily, "You followed me to Tikrit???" Then after a second, he says, more surprisedly, "It's you."

Ben tells Sayid: "This is MY war, not yours." War = game?

Ben says to Widmore: "The hunt is on for both of us." The inferred hunt is to find Penny and the Island. There's obviously more to it. FIND is the operative word. The show is called LOST.

-MorBid0 and Cecil: The show and sites like this stimulate discussion. I personally don't have the intelligence or knowledge to submit really deep theories, but I enjoy reading and learning from the heady stuff the rest of you submit. And if the writers themselves reveal something, whether I hear it myself or read it here, so what? They are just more clues. That's not a spoiler to me. I am not exactly a "casual" viewer, but I also don't do the extra work. That's why I have Mac!! You either participate (lurk or post)in a blog like this or you simply watch the show on a one-dimensional, wait-and-see-what-happens-next level.

The countdown has started....


#260. Posted by: lovelost at May 1, 2008 12:50 PM

re 254 ealgumby
Thanks for the scientific explanation. Do you remember the book that Faraday looked in to find his constant's name? A page or two before it, There was a diagram of a circle with links in it (no words on or equations on the page if I remember) and a third circle at the apex. Or top of a cone shape it made. The Blast door had the same design on it.With the linked circles marked as hatches. There a ? mark in the middle. Maybe this IS a time travel point. Maybe the Temple is there?

#261. Posted by: berkyo at May 1, 2008 1:37 PM

@ 259/ Cecil Rose

Ben has often referred to his group as "The Good Guys."

#262. Posted by: welh at May 1, 2008 2:54 PM

- 233 - Cecil Rose
"Could be awkward if he's en flagrante..."

Thanks Cecil. Though I got it through context, I had to Google it anyway...and it's my new favorite phrase. I'm sure there will now be a future Lost episode called "En Flagrante"...(Claire or Kate or Sun or Juliet centric please!)

#263. Posted by: JoePike at May 1, 2008 3:54 PM

Please forgive me if someone has mentioned this already...I've read all of the posts, really, but over a week's time the memory tends to go. Anyway, we've noticed that in the climatic scene w/Ben & Charles, their faces are each half in shadow, & the shadow falls on their faces such that Charles's left side is shadowed & Ben's right (I'm pretty sure). This is of course entirely consistent w/a light shining in from a window. What I'm wondering is if TPTB intended the opposite black-&-white effect to be reminiscent of the classic Star Trek episode "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" (I had to look it up) in which oppositely colored black-&-white humanoids, through their incessant fighting & undying hatred for each other, destroy their respective peoples & their planet.

#264. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 1, 2008 4:02 PM

Anybody think the "double doc" could really just be an editing oversite with the makeup department? I've seen plenty of scenes where there's blood on someone's face in one scene and the next scene it's clean as can be, then bloody again next camera angle. (Example: Charlie in the Looking Glass episode when the girls beat the snot out of him. Half the time he's bloody, half the time not. OMG! Were there TWO CHARLIES???) Maybe we're trying too hard to find an explanation that's as simple as that... but LOVE you guys and your marvelous theories anyway!!

Always lurking and seeking out bunny haters... (And to think, my bunny #15 could be the very key to all of this!)

#265. Posted by: BunnyLover at May 1, 2008 4:11 PM

lovelost #260: you said,
"When Ben realizes that Alex has been captured, he must have thought about his last words to her: "Your mother will protect you." Maybe that was the rule broken... killing Rousseau."

I wonder that too. We have to ask ourselves why we still know almost nothing about Rousseau at this late date. Being reunited with Alex was the perfect opportunity to give us a flashback to Alex's birth and get into Rousseau's back story . . . but that didn't happen.

Rousseau's role is way more important than being the crazy french woman on the island. And remember that Rousseau erased the previous looped message (the numbers)that had been transmitted from the island for how many years? We have no idea, and she replaced it with her own message. I'm beginning to think they haven't told us much about her because anything they reveal to us about Danielle is going to be mindblowing.

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's interesting what Rousseau doesn't say in her message: She doesn't give the island's coordinates though she tells us that her ship took a tack toward the radio transmission to investigate and ended up going aground...in other words, they purposely looked for and found the locale of the transmission. And the other thing she doesn't say is: Dear God, they've kidnapped my child. The mofo's have stolen my infant. OR I am pregnant, I am alone. Please help me.

Nope what she says is: "If anyone can hear this, They are all dead, it killed them all. I will try to get to the Black Rock."

And here's another thing: How does Widmore know about Alex? He could know about her from pre-purge intelligence. And that raises an interesting question...Did Ben kidnap Alex prior to the purge or after? If prior to the purge, that's how Widmore knows of Alex. But then, how did Rousseau survive the gassing?

If Ben kidnapped Alex after the purge then the purge happened longer ago than I thought and it explains why Danielle didn't die when everyone else without a gas mask did. But it doesn't tell us how Widmore would know who Alex is... unless he has a spy on the island.

#266. Posted by: undaunted at May 1, 2008 4:30 PM

one last thing. How does Widmore know Alex is dead? If Keamy survives Old Smokey AND either gets to a radio/sat phone or makes it off the island, then that is a possible explanation. If Keamy dies before he can send a message, then who told Widmore not only that Alex was killed, but the circumstances of her death?

#267. Posted by: undaunted at May 1, 2008 5:13 PM

→ 266. Posted by: undaunted

So, we had Ben's Man on the Boat (BMOTB)and now we'll have WMOTI.

Widmore seems to know an awful lot about the Island. Presumably, it was he who advised Keamy about the sonic fence, where to find Ben, etc. hmmm

-265 BunnyLover: LOVE you guys and your marvelous theories

Ditto. You all everybody.

#268. Posted by: lovelost at May 1, 2008 5:14 PM

→ 266. Posted by: undaunted
re: Rousseau...
- - - -
Maybe her backstory went by the wayside when they cut the remaining three seasons from 20+ to just 16 per.

Still hoping that we will see at least a montage episode with Danielle & hubby, Goodspeed, DeGroots, Roger/Mrs Linus and company... in pre-Purge mode.

#269. Posted by: DocH at May 1, 2008 5:22 PM

@263 JoePike kudoed the wrong person:

>>- 233 - Cecil Rose
>>"Could be awkward if he's en flagrante..."

>Thanks Cecil. Though I got it through context, I had to Google it anyway...and it's my new favorite phrase. I'm sure there will now be a future Lost episode called "En Flagrante"...(Claire or Kate or Sun or Juliet centric please!)

Can't take the credit for that one - I was quoting @222 ransomjackson there. For us older lostboys, the phrase is a familiar one from a gentler time, prone to euphemisms.

#270. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 1, 2008 5:25 PM

→ 267. Posted by: undaunted
How does Widmore know Alex is dead? If Keamy survives Old Smokey AND either gets to a radio/sat phone or makes it off the island, then that is a possible explanation...
- - - -
How about this. Deductive reasoning. EVERYONE on the island is dead because the goofball scientists made it back to the Tempest station, turned the deadly gas back on, pushed the 'extermimate' button, and those without bio/chem suits all yelled - "RAID!". The OA6 left before that happened, and those with contamination suits slinked back to the boat.
Widmore Motto - if I can't control the island, then no one will. (laughs sinisterly).

#271. Posted by: DocH at May 1, 2008 5:38 PM

lost mamacita #257:

Tom didn't have to time travel to get to NY when he did; he could have just travelled really really really fast. There might be a wormhole on the island that get's them to where they want to go instaneously.

#272. Posted by: undaunted at May 1, 2008 5:41 PM

@LostMamacita/257
"What if that's the way the 6 get off the island? That would explain why Aaron looks so much older off the island or why people assume he's Kate's son, but if that were the case, then
Sun's baby would have already been
born. Unless, they time travelled to different times in the future."

I too, am (still) intrigued by the whole Aaron-is-Kate's-son deal and how Sun's birth fits into the timeline ...

I presented a theory in the "Meet Kevin Johnson" thread (#532 & #538) which I still believe for the most part (not a grand theory, just an explanation for this Q).

Especially as we've gotten recent evidence suggesting "real" time travel can happen in the show, it would make sense if the O6 left the island "now" (i.e., Jan 2005), but due to a slightly off-course exit, ended up off-island in the Aug/Sep 2005 timeframe. Quick synopsis ...

According to Lostpedia, Aaron was born 1 Nov 2004. If they left the island in Jan 2005, he'd be about two months old ... how could it be explained that Kate has a two-month-old child when the O6 were rescued? Hypothetical scenario (bear with me) ...

Okay, say she supposedly bonded immediately with one of the survivors (Sawyer for sake of argument), and in a fit of post-survival euphoric passion, throws caution to the wind, and is impregnated on, let's just say October 1st. That would have her nominally "giving birth" in late June or early July. Now let's say the O6 were "rescued" on September 1st, 2005 (due to short time travel off the island). Gee, now Aaron would be exactly the correct age for that scenario. Sun's pregnancy could easily be explained away as having taken place "long" after being stranded on the island. Sun gives birth to Ji yeon the requisite amount of time later from the O6 "rescue" date (early 2005) ...

This is how I think Kate justifies Aaron as being "her" son when the O6 are rescued. Other things fall into place as well, but not going to rehash that again now.

Hope that makes sense ...

#273. Posted by: ealgumby at May 1, 2008 6:25 PM

@ealgumby/273

Crap, posted w/o proofing first ... I meant to say that Sun gives birth to Ji Yeon in spring of 2006, not 2005.

#274. Posted by: ealgumby at May 1, 2008 6:32 PM

One last comment re TSoTtC: We've noted that when Claire first comes to after Sawyer rescues her from the laundry, she murmurs, "Charlie...?" Now I don't remember where I read this (maybe even here), but Claire was supposed to have a "vision scene" in this episode that was cut. It seems pretty likely that it would have been a vision scene w/Charlie à la Hurley & Charlie at Santa Rosa. Not sure if this has any bearing on Claire's future, but thought it was worth mentioning.

#275. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 1, 2008 6:36 PM

@berkyo/261

"There was a diagram of a circle with links in it (no words on or equations on the page if I remember) and a third circle at the apex."

I went back and saw that diagram as well after you mentioned it earlier ... not quite sure what to make of it (not a time cone diagram ... more of a state chart, maybe just to keep his thoughts straight). I also compared it to the blast door pic, but they do not match. Will post pics of both if you like.

#276. Posted by: ealgumby at May 1, 2008 6:40 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/264
"Anyway, we've noticed that in the climatic scene w/Ben & Charles, their faces are each half in shadow, & the shadow falls on their faces such that Charles's left side is shadowed & Ben's right (I'm pretty sure)."

Had seen the "light/dark" side of their faces thing mentioned before here, but no one previously pointed out the right/left correlation. Funny thing, as soon as I read that (really!) the Star Trek epi in question immediately popped into my head, but then scrolled down to see that was your point! Great minds must think alike ...

As an aside, dare we read any political context into who's side is in the shadows (dont want to start anything ugly here, just saying ...)?

BTW ... the "first" thing that went through my head as I read your post was actually the possible Tunisia/Arctic connection(?) when you mentioned the "climatic scene" ... ;)

#277. Posted by: ealgumby at May 1, 2008 6:49 PM

@274 ealgumby Uriah Heeped:

>Crap, posted w/o proofing first ... I meant to say that Sun gives birth to Ji Yeon in spring of 2006, not 2005.

Lostpedia places Ji Yeon's birth as "Summer, 2005".

#278. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 1, 2008 6:53 PM

And, by the way, Lostpedia's calculations have us still in 2004. According to them TSoTtC takes place on "Day 97 - Monday, December 27, 2004".

I notice they've apparently resolved their earlier calculations and no longer have a two-day difference between "Island Time" and "Freighter Time".

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline

#279. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 1, 2008 6:58 PM

@BunnyLover/265
"Anybody think the 'double doc' could really just be an editing oversite with the makeup department?"

I don't believe that for a minute, but DID think at first that doc had gotten a beating (maybe from the captain) after first interviewing Sayid & Desmond, resulting in his swollen eye and cut cheek. Didn't think any further about it until welh pointed out that "dead doc" had the same cut on his cheek, but fersher and still stitched up.

That's when I went back to the "Ji Yeon" epi and noticed welh was right about doc's cut at that point already having been mostly healed. They put the "beat up doc" makeup on for a reason, in my mind completely confirmed by seeing "dead doc" with the same, fresher, injury. Do not buy that this was a simple production error ...

#280. Posted by: ealgumby at May 1, 2008 7:01 PM

@Cecil Rose/278

"Lostpedia places Ji Yeon's birth as 'Summer, 2005'."

But that's based on the assumption that they leave the island and arrive off-island in the same time-frame ... that's when Ji Yeon "should" have been born, based upon her being conceived on-island.

HOWEVER, there is NO canonical evidence to support that birth date (and Lostpedia, as great a resource as it is, is NOT canon!).

I stick by my theory, and I'll bet the writers are pleased as punch to see Lostpedia posting such "definitive" info ...

#281. Posted by: ealgumby at May 1, 2008 7:07 PM

@Cecil Rose/279

"And, by the way, Lostpedia's calculations have us still in 2004."

True, but the O6 haven't left yet, have they? I used January 2005 as a "rough estimate" of their departure date, not intended to be exact ... they could leave within the next couple of days, or maybe not until some time next week island-time, we don't know yet. IMO, saying Jan 2005 is close enough ...

#282. Posted by: ealgumby at May 1, 2008 7:12 PM

Plus I think we all seem to be assuming that the O6 somehow get on that freighter and go, for which there's no evidence, either. Maybe they get off in May after the US Marines land. Who knows, at this point?

Summer '05 seem to be the earliest guesstimated any of the six does something off the island, so far.

#283. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 1, 2008 7:21 PM

@Cecil Rose/283

"Plus I think we all seem to be assuming that the O6 somehow get on that freighter and go"

I agree, but do NOT think they'll end up on the freighter (in fact, I think Michael will eventually succeed in sinking the freighter ... no evidence whatsoever, just my gut feel).

Without trying to get too technical, if my analysis of the Kerr metric is correct, and they arrive off-island in the "wrong time," then they'll be just as likely to end up in the "wrong place" as well (i.e., several months into the future, and who knows where!). This will also "conveniently" given them the excuse that they have no idea where the island is, and/or to falsely place "the island" near where they will eventually be picked up.

They will have reasons to lie ...

#284. Posted by: ealgumby at May 1, 2008 7:36 PM

It's Thursday night! It's Thursday night!

#285. Posted by: berkyo at May 1, 2008 7:48 PM

@undaunted/266
"If Ben kidnapped Alex after the purge then the purge happened longer ago than I thought and it explains why Danielle didn't die when everyone else without a gas mask did. But it doesn't tell us how Widmore would know who Alex is... unless he has a spy on the island."

Boy, THIS opens a can of worms! First of all, how old is Ben? The actor, Michael Emerson, is 53 years old. I know, production liberty, yet he clearly cannot be presented as having been born much before the early 60's (as kinda indicated in the show[?]). According to Lostpedia (again, take this with a grain of salt), the purge happened in the 90's, after Danielle arrived in 88(?). This would be consistent with his apparent "biological" age at the time of the purge. Yet the Dharma technology seems to be stuck (when the purge would've happened, right?) in the early 80's, so what gives?

I think you may be on to something here ... hmm ...

#286. Posted by: ealgumby at May 1, 2008 7:53 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/264 & ealgumby/277
Cool. I also thought of Bele and Lokai from that star trek ep - "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield". If I recall, Bele had been chasing Lokai for 50,000 years or so. I thought it would be cool if that's how long the Ben Linus / Widmore feud has been going on.

I hope that the shadowing had some deeper meaning. More likely, this was merely a common filmmaking device. Almost universally, when adversaries converse, the director will arrange the setting to include a line - perhaps a narrow column in the room or a shadow - something that divides the physical space between them to convey conflict. Shadowing is used to create narrative tension. Vertical blinds are used to create diagonal striped shadow to create a sense of foreboding.

#287. Posted by: vacc at May 1, 2008 8:17 PM

Tickety Talkety.....

An hour and 3/4 to go until our fresh fixen of a show that could very well be as addictive as crack!

I say this only in a hypothetical sense, as the only crack I've had is the one that is visible when I wear loose pants! :)

After the great success of ep9, it certainly is going to be a tough act to follow...

#288. Posted by: shikotee at May 1, 2008 8:19 PM

@287 and earlier ref's...

re: Bele and Lokai

Now if only the Riddler would appear on the island!

Haven't seen that ep in ages, but truely a classic. Good connection with the shadows!

#289. Posted by: shikotee at May 1, 2008 8:24 PM

ONE HOURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

#290. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 1, 2008 9:08 PM

Forty-Five......

#291. Posted by: shikotee at May 1, 2008 9:15 PM

@shikotee/#288: "I say this only in a hypothetical sense, as the only crack I've had is the one that is visible when I wear loose pants!" TMI, dude. TMI.

@vacc/#287: "Shadowing is used to create narrative tension. Vertical blinds are used to create diagonal striped shadow to create a sense of foreboding." Valences are used to create a lightness of being. (I'm quoting "The Psychology of Window Treatments," an unpublished self-help tome that vacc has been shopping around.) Blinds, curtains, shades, and shutters! Oh, my!

Bring on the show!

#292. Posted by: Clementine at May 1, 2008 9:27 PM

Show time!

#293. Posted by: shikotee at May 1, 2008 10:00 PM

@vacc: The scene with Jack and Hurley at Santa Rosa gave me the willies. But then I noticed the shadow of chicken wire on Jack's face, and I chuckled, thinking of you.

:)

#294. Posted by: Clementine at May 1, 2008 11:13 PM

→ 277. ealgumby: "climatic" scene:

Damn & double damn. There's nothing more embarrassing for an editor than misspelling something. I could try to excuse it w/that my geography background was showing, but that's pretty lame... ; )

→ 288. shikotee: Loose pants:

Around here we call that plumbers' cleavage...w/apologies to any plumbers here. : )

#295. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 1, 2008 11:41 PM

I need to go to bed, but I can't wait to read what you all thought about this episode!

#296. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 1, 2008 11:43 PM

Me, too. Goodnight fellow Lost bloggers.

#297. Posted by: Clementine at May 1, 2008 11:55 PM