The Lost Blog

Key Points from "Something Nice Back Home"

Season 4, Episode 10
Episode Air Date: 05/01/08

Point 1
Jack

Kate
Note: The late hour and early morning commitments conspired to make this a short review. Apologies in advance for the brevity.

Ever since the phrase "Oceanic Six" entered the "Lost" lexicon, we've all been wondering how the chosen few would get off the island. The exact rescue apparatus is still unknown, but this episode certainly moved everyone into position. For example:

  • The Jack-Kate dynamic grows very strong in the closing moments of the island scenes, so by the time "rescue" arrives, these two will (probably) be emotionally entwined, thereby justifying their dual departure.
  • In an odd exchange between Charlotte and Jin we learn that, 1. Charlotte knows Korean, and 2. Jin will do anything to make sure Sun gets off the island. This "anything" includes breaking Danny Faraday's fingers one by one by one. Jin's advocacy and threatened violence presumably lead to Sun's rescue.
  • Aaron was always the trickiest member of the Oceanic Six because his separation from Claire presumably meant Claire was dead. But, again, the "Losties" prove there's more than one way to separate a newborn from its mother. Namely, make the mother follow her dead father into the jungle and leave her child nestled near a tree stump. Sawyer safely recovers Aaron in the final moments of the episode, but Claire is no where to be seen. The upside is that Claire may live on past this season. The downside is that Aaron spent half a night crying in a sinister jungle while his dumb mother went off with a fatherly apparition. (Sidenote: Why did Claire call the ghostly Dr. Shephard "Dad"? She spent approximately 15 minutes with this guy in her backstories, yet when he shows up mysteriously on the island she's all "oh hi, Daddy!"? What am I missing here?)
  • The positioning of the final two Sixers -- Hurley and Sayid -- is TBD. Hurley is currently searching for Jacob's cabin with Ben and Locke, so maybe he'll use Ben's Subterranean Shortcut to hightail it back to the beach. Sayid will use that Republican Guard training to commandeer the freighter ... or engage in some grand gesture involving machinery and subterfuge.

I mention all this because this episode -- despite shower scenes and hallway sex and a marriage proposal -- had the feel of a set-up for the coming finale.

But time is tight, so let's put the Oceanic Six on the back burner and instead turn our attention to this episode's other developments. We begin with Jack and Kate ... in the future.

Jack gets a second dose of future-flash treatment, and in this edition we see how Beardless Jack begins the ugly descent into Bearded Jack.

Oddly, the episode begins with Jack flying high. His medical career is in full swing (we know this because he's got a wood-paneled office with high ceilings and dramatic recessed lighting) and he's got a pretty freckled girl and her adopted son waiting for him back home.

Yes, Jaters, Jack and Kate get together ... for a little while at least. The events in this episode take place sometime after Kate's trial. Future Jack has pulled a 180 from when we last saw him; now, not only does he want to see little Aaron (his nephew, which he seems to know about), but he now wants to marry Kate and raise Aaron as his own. It's quite the emotional leap.

So, Jack and Kate enter into a torrid relationship that involves showers and nakedness and wayward Millennium Falcons on the kitchen floor. And after approximately two weeks of intense dating and mating, Jack pops the question and Kate accepts.

But the island has different plans for Jack. Before popping the question to Kate, Jack visits Hurley at the mental hospital. Hurley delivers an Island Gram from Ghost Charlie:

"You're not supposed to raise him, Jack."
Given his burgeoning relationship with Aaron, this message momentarily gets Jack's attention. But Jack's blood alcohol level is still within legal limits at this point, so he chalks the message up to typical Hurley craziness and goes on his way.

The island doesn't like it when you ignore its messages, so it ups the ante by dispatching Jack's Kryptonite: Dr. Christian Shephard.

The "dead" doctor materializes one late night in the lobby of Jack's swank office. He's wearing his cabana gear -- dark suit and white sneakers -- and when Jack spots him, his heroic exterior puddles on the floor. Within two days of this Dr. Daddy sighting, Jack is popping pills, drinking to excess, growing out his beard (seriously) and worst of all, destroying his relationship with Kate and Aaron. As downward spirals go, this one is quite efficient.

As the episode concludes, we've got a clear path toward the bearded husk we saw in the season three finale.

Point 2
Jack

Kate

Juliet

Jin

Claire
On-island events touched on three core topics/developments:
  1. Jack's appendicitis could be more than just bad luck. Rose and Bernard have a brief but telling conversation about this very topic, with Rose noting that the island is supposed to heal, not hurt (that's her conclusion, anyway). The attention given to this scene appears to show a connection between a character's health and his/her "communion" with the island. The obvious examples are Ben's tumor, Locke's miraculous bullet recovery, and Jack's appendicitis, but don't forget that Sawyer has shown a remarkable ability to recover from near-death experiences.
  2. This episode makes it quite clear that Jack's heart is with Kate, so that whole Jack-Juliet tonguefest from "The Other Woman" could be the kiss of death for Jules. I'll go on record right now: If Juliet dies, she better go out in a blaze of ninja-doctor glory.
  3. Miles "sees" Claire go off with Dr. Christian Shephard -- or so we're led to believe. Miles eyeballs Claire and/or Aaron throughout the episode, and, given his ghost whispering abilities, it would seem that something ethereal is afoot. So, what gives? Did Smokey take the form of Dr. Shephard and woo Claire into the jungle? Is Miles in on it (doubtful ... but you never know)?
Point 3
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "Just watch your tongue, Red." -- Rose to Charlotte.
  • Second Best Line: "A-rod." -- Jack, rightfully disgusted at a Sox-Yankees newspaper story.
  • It would appear that Future Sawyer exists. During his farewell fight with Kate, Jack says Sawyer chose to stay behind on the island. This suggests that the Widmore mercenaries fail to wipe out the entire island population. It also leaves the door open to a future Sun-Jin reunion (presuming Sawyer and Jin are kicking back with Dharma beer and English lessons).
  • Rousseau and Karl and both quite dead (rotting corpses tend to bring flies and clarity). But here's a question: Who buried their bodies? I'm assuming it was the Widmore mercenaries, but if that's the case, they did a piss-poor job covering their tracks because there are noses and arms and appendages popping out all over.
  • I often read "Lost" spoilers (yeah ... shame, shame), so I'm somewhat familiar with the odd sensation of seeing a development play out that I already knew about. But this season's future flash component has introduced a unique variation on that same feeling -- it's sort of an "officially recognized spoiler." For example, we know Jack and Kate's relationship goes sour, so watching these two major characters get engaged summons that familiar spoiler response; yet we're supposed to have this feeling.

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"Cabin Fever" -- Locke finds Jacob's love shack. Airs Thursday, May 8, 2008 at 10 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

first? love ya, meg!

#1. Posted by: hurling at May 2, 2008 12:19 AM

Well - not a bad follow up.

Quick points -

Why did the killing crew even bother with burying Rousseau and Karl? And why did they do such a half ass job?

Juliet - I like you so much more now!

#2. Posted by: shikotee at May 2, 2008 12:28 AM

Great review Mac, even if it was brief.

Claire never learned Christian Shephard's name. So the only way she could refer to him would be as her father or dad.

Someone new has been posting as Christine, so to prevent confusion I should come up with a new name ... any ideas?

#3. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 2, 2008 12:33 AM

I think Claire's "Dad?" was to remind viewers that she's Jack's 1/2 sister. Sometime soon she'll have to reappear & tell everyone who she saw so Jack can figure it out. Or maybe he'll see them together.

I thought it was weirder that both Kate & Jack referred to Aaron as "the baby." They didn't do that on the island. I thought my husband & I were the only couple in the world to do that past the age of 6 mos. (We still do sometimes, and the loveable youngster is almost 19.)

#4. Posted by: hurling at May 2, 2008 12:33 AM

Did anyone get the feeling that future Jack was aware that Aaron was a relative? I think it was when he was all Stalkerish with Kate, and said something like "You're not even a relative".

I did find it funny that just before Jack sees the image of his father, the smoke detector is activated. Perhaps Smokie really is behind the apparitions on and off the island?

#5. Posted by: shikotee at May 2, 2008 12:41 AM

Why did Claire awaken in the middle of the night and go with "dad?"

Okay...

Why did Claire awaken after the bungalow exploded and go with "Charlie?", while looking at James?

Maybe she's 'walking dead/wounded'. She's already a mort (zombie). That's why Christian came for her.

And Miles, he was aware of the whole 'she went off with some dude thing'. Did his spidey-senses tingle? - waking him up when Christian floated in to camp, or was it just a waking dream?


#6. Posted by: DocH at May 2, 2008 12:53 AM

Where do we get that Jack knows that Aaron is his nephew? He doesn't even know yet that Claire is his sister. The - you're not even related - slash at Kate may just mean that Claire is the birth mom, not you (Kate).

I like that Christian showing up at hospital coincides with the smoke alarm... or is that SMOKEY alarm?

#7. Posted by: DocH at May 2, 2008 1:01 AM

@7

It seems rather suggestive that Jack might know by this point that Clair is his half sister, but by no means is this for certain.

#8. Posted by: shikotee at May 2, 2008 1:18 AM

Isn't it possible that Kate's errand "for Sawyer" - we don't know that she was talking to him - was something for his daughter with the chica from the Long Con (who's name I've forgotten), who Kate later ended up with while she was on the lamb (trying to get in touch with her mother)? If Jack has put together that Claire was his sister, maybe Kate has put together that her con-artist friend was connected to Sawyer.

Kate did say that what she was doing had nothing to do with her and Jack. Helping Sawyer's daughter certainly wouldn't. And Sawyer wouldn't want anyone to know about the abandoned daughter. (Kate said "He wouldn't want me to tell you.")

#9. Posted by: Not that Kate at May 2, 2008 1:18 AM

@9

My first thought was that it would have something to do with Clementine.

#10. Posted by: shikotee at May 2, 2008 1:23 AM

Did anyone notice when Jack said to Kate that she wasn't even related to Aaron, that he had a sort of self-dignifying tone to his voice?

Does this mean that somehow he knows he's related to Claire AND Aaron?

Just a thought. We'll see if the writers do something with it.

I'M OUT!

#11. Posted by: Patrick 707 at May 2, 2008 1:39 AM

I’ve been away for several weeks - watching episodes 5 days late - but tonight I got to see the “first run” version and wow, right off the bat, first big and very pleasant surprise is Kate stepping out of the shower! (I must admit, I kind of hoped it was Juliet - she’s turned into such a “good egg” of late . . .I know, I know - she’s NOT one of the O6, but afterall, she wasn’t ON the plane and no one still says that other folks on the island don’t get off. I mean, like, explain Benny -Boy and his future rovings!)

I agree with Mac - If Juliet goes out - I hope it’s the Mother of All Glorious Take-outs! She deserves it. (Nice moment in the operating tent with Kate concerning “the” Jack-kiss.)

Plus she must be a SUPER SURGEON, because if I saw correctly in my rewind, Jack doesn’t even have a surgical scar in the opening scene!

I’m really bummed out that Danielle is really dead. I’ve been waiting for that 16 year flashback when Ben and Friends kidnap Alex. Of course, with that guy in the preview indicating that he’s been dead for 12 years, obviously no one, even dead people, have to REALLY worry about getting totally written out of the story line . . . good grief, how about that old drunkard, the original Dr. Shepherd? That guy keeps wandering in and out, season after season.

(Of course, unlike “shot-up-like-a-rocket’ WALT, it’s easier for old guys to stay the same . . . Hey, I turned 62 at Christmas. and heck, I don’t look at day over 60.5 if I do say so myself!)

And with all the hubbub about Aaron and Claire, Aaron and Kate, Aaron and Jack, Aaron and the Australian Psychic . . Let’s all remember that way back in season one, C & D said that Aaron would be a “very important character to the mythology of the show” . . . .

I must admit, Jack can be such a fuss-whussitt at times. You and I both know that Kate is probably taking care of Sawyer’s business with Cassidy and Clementine. But can Jack just let it go? . . Noooooooo, he has to sink into his Paranoid-Jack Jumpsuit! What a jerk.

Hey, four scenes with Kate in her underwear! THE smile wouldn‘t leave my face for three weeks! (Don’t give me that “age” thing . . You YOUNG GUYS are thinking EXACTLY the same thing I’m thinking . . .! . . )

By the way, I loved the "Jin playing Korean James Cagney” with the Red-headed chick! I kept waiting for him to push a grapefruit in her face.

Well, looking forward to meeting Jacob, the hay-raker, or whomever that young dead, yet glibly talking, dude was in the previews next week.

I'm out of here.

#12. Posted by: davidrh at May 2, 2008 2:38 AM

Thanks Mac.

Last episode I figured Miles could "smell" Claire's impending death, as though she had already sustained the injury that would kill her; I said if she had a headache this episode she was a goner. Sure enough she had a headache and then wandered off with dead Dr.Dad. It does not bode well for Claire. Or not...Who the hell knows? I sure don't know!

Sorry to see Rousseau really is dead. But death appears to be about as relative as time on the island.
How on earth can the warning that only Claire must raise Aaron still apply if Claire is dead? So it must mean she is alive. Or not...

If we work on the premise that because Claire had gone missing the tough decision was made at the time of rescue to evacuate Aaron from the island in Kate's custody, that is a good explanation of why Jack orginally had difficulty being around Aaron. He felt guilty for taking the baby without certainty that his mother was dead.

Why would Christian accompany Claire away from her baby if no one should raise Aaron but Claire? Is that an indication that even among the walking dead there are warring factions? Charlie (through Hurley)is telling Jack, "You can't raise him." But Christian separates Claire from Aaron at a crucial moment?

The implication from Charlie's caution to Jack is that if Aaron had remained on the island, Claire would be raising him. So maybe Claire shows up again next episode alive and well. Or maybe she shows up dead and well.

Charlie visits Hurley. Christian visits Jack. So why can't Claire permanently visit Kate and raise Aaron heself?

Looks like the previews give us a hint as to the nature of the forest whisperers.

#13. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 2:49 AM

Haha, I told you guys they were ramping up the Jack-Kate romance this week, after seeing Kate's seemingly pointless flirting and taking her arms out of her tank top straps last week I just knew they were setting us up for this week. But wow, I didn't realize how much!

Well, I guess this sets the records straight on Jack's feelings. Kate's always been the girl for him, regardless of all the other craziness that's happened. Seems like he's destined to constantly lose to Sawyer though. I'm willing to bet that when (this is an assumption on my part, not a spoiler) the 06 go back to the island for the final apocalyptic showdown or whatever, Sawyer (who has been alive while the 06 were off island) ends up with Kate at the end after they win and defeat evil forever or whatnot. It would follow the typical cosmic law that goes something like

"nice guy leader types with a tendency towards OCD and heavy breathing will always lose out to roguish assholes who secretly have hearts of gold."

Kind of like how Luke lost out to Han over Leia. Well, without the incest. (Unless you count Shannon and Boone, but that was really no more incest than when George Michael got to 2nd with Maebe by "going in head first, like Pete Rose")

Anyway, enough rambing. Night all!

#14. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at May 2, 2008 4:12 AM

Oh, also Lost is the best show ever made.

#15. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at May 2, 2008 4:15 AM

Sixteenth!

#16. Posted by: t-code-j at May 2, 2008 4:47 AM

No one has mentioned the fact that Hurley told Jack he thinks they are all really dead and were never supposed to leave the island. I know the purgatory theory was shot down early on, but this kind of makes me wonder about that again. It would be hard to explain how they are now back in the "real world", but with the constant appearance of the supposedly dead people it leads me to think that they could be "lost souls" who have not yet "crossed over." I put all these phrases in quotation because I am not a person who has been interested in this sort of thing in a personal way so I am just using phrases I am familiar with from watching movies with this subject-matter. Does anyone have a comment about Hurley's "theory?"

#17. Posted by: Cissy at May 2, 2008 6:03 AM

Was just rewatching the episode, had a few more random thoughts:

It was so awesome when Faraday was like, "See, that, Charlotte, your, uh, attitude, your, uh, VERY BAD attitude, it's uh, exactly why they don't trust us." This was my favorite quote of the episode. God Charlotte is such a hateful b&tch. I hope she gets riddled with bullets like, yesterday.

To quote Mac: "God bless you, Doctor Burke." Her magnanimity in her little scene with Kate where she tells her that Jack loves Kate, was nothing less than saintly.

Why do they keep teasing this "they're all dead" stuff when the producers debunked the rumor a long time ago? Both Hurley and the dastardly Anthony Cooper have made recent allusions to this.

I took a couple Clonazepam and drank a beer once, (as Jack is seen doing in this ep) I highly recommend that no one ever do this. I lost almost all coordination, it was rather scary. Once Jack decides he's gonna get f'ed up, he doesn't mess around, huh?

What's with the whole Sawyer-restraining order thing? 2nd episode in a row where he's uncharacteristically overprotective. Are they trying to set us up for some future development perhaps? Which will help explain why Sawyer and Claire apparently did not leave the Island.

Anyone else wonder if Jack's obsessive need to fix things (like his own appendix) is meant to be his tragic flaw? Will things end badly for the good doctor because of this? I hope not, Jack is awesome, despite his super annoying breathing and tendency to get all intense and start yelling and emphasizing random words.

I think Lapidus crapped his pants when he was covering for Claire, Sawyer and Miles with the commandos.

Too bad the smoke alarm didn't make the hatch 4 minute warning beep. I'm starting to miss it. Man I miss the hatch!

Kate+Undergarments=win!

#18. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at May 2, 2008 6:08 AM

The newspaper article that Jack reads at Kate’s house,

http://tinyurl.com/42m6pl

appears to have been taken from this NY Times article of August 31, 2007

http://tinyurl.com/4mxfpe

Can this be used to reliably date the flash-forward or is it just a case of production copying an article for their convenience? They have to know how obsessive we fans are about the details at this point. But it would seem to me the events here should be taking place in 2005.

********************************

The scene with Hurley at Santa Rosa freaked me out. Jorge Garcia is awesome. Hurley doesn’t believe that his current reality is real. He reminds Jack, doesn’t it all seem too perfect? Charlie’s delivering “raised by another” messages, and Jack will soon have a visitor of his own.

What if the future is not as it should be? What if the course needs to be reverse-corrected, as Jack realizes by the time he is flying the friendly skies.

When Hurley visits Sun after Ji Yeon’s birth, he seems content. He is particularly happy when Sun responds to his question about anyone else coming with “No”. “Good,” he says. Perhaps not because he’s had a falling out with his Oceanic Six friends, but because he knows they have returned to the island.

********************************

I agree about Claire being one of the walking dead. Here were my thoughts after the last episode,
“Claire's house exploded into nothingness and yet Claire survived with very little injury. What if the healing properties of the island saved her (for some reason), but she is now unable to leave the island without dying. That could possibly explain why she would give up Aaron to Kate, and why Miles commented "I wouldn't say that" when Claire said she was alright. Maybe Miles can see her "aura" of death or injury that's being masked by the island.”

I noticed they referenced Claire’s “vision” of Charlie that was cut last week. Will we ever get to see it?


********PREVIEW SPOILER************

Was that Horace Goodspeed saying that he’s been dead for 12 years? Didn’t get a good look at him. I don’t think that fits the Dharma timeline, and no one else has mentioned it, so I’m guessing not. But I hope they’re not adding random dead people at this point.

*******END PREVIEW SPOILER*******

#19. Posted by: Clementine at May 2, 2008 6:29 AM

The thing that everybody's seems to forget is that Desmond said to Charlie that he saw Claire get on the helicopter with Aaron and Desmond seems to be right with predicting the future stuff.
That was the reason for Charlie to dive down to the station en turn off the switch

#20. Posted by: Nikki at May 2, 2008 6:34 AM

Am I just getting used to Dan's speech pattern, or is the island curing his stuttering?

#21. Posted by: mtncbn at May 2, 2008 6:46 AM

Also up for "Best Line Nominee":

Faraday - Where do you think all this power comes from?

Charlotte - Add that one to the list.

#22. Posted by: The Other Other at May 2, 2008 7:07 AM

Thanks Mac...great review despite the late hours.

Regarding Jack/Aaron...I too thought right off that somehow Jack knows that he is his nephew. Not sure why...wasn't clearly stated, but that was my first impression. Don't really know what is up with Claire...can't even formulate a theory. The great thing (sometimes frustrating thing) about Lost is that they have us jumping back and forth in the timeline of events that I honestly trust that it will all come together at the end.

Agree that we got more insight into how Bearded Jack came to be...always wondered after Season 3 how our "Hero" could have gotten in such a state. After re-watching, I wonder how Jack could come to "accept" Aaron, move in with him and Kate (when he couldn't even agree to a cup of coffee with Kate in the parking garage after her trial because he couldn't "accept" Aaron), be so happy, propose and then be so easily paranoid over a night time outing of Kate's. There must be more information that has yet to be revealed as to why a little doubt on his part woulod send him to drugs, alcohol and self destruction. That whole progression just doesn't sit well with me.

Why did Juliet reveal all that to Kate while she was stiching Jack up knowing he was awake...? Why was he pretending to be out? I was thinking they would go back to that to kind of finish, but no. Any thoughts?

I have more questions after this episode than I had yesterday. Not sure why Hurley is losing it. He did seem to be okay when he went to see Sun. (And assuming out of the mental facility facility since he was able to travel would imply that he had "recovered".)

How many more episodes are left this season?

Agree that there must be something to Rose and Bernard's conversation...again, not sure what...

Also noticed in the opening scene...Jack all wrapped up in that towel...don't care if he breathes funny and goes a bit cross-eyed when he's really inflammed about something...he's still hot. Did not see a scar either... Perhaps the island healed him...? Then why did the appendicitis happen to start with...? Locke's gun shot wound...pretty much healed. Jack's surgery scars healed...hmmm...

#23. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 7:26 AM

Oh yeah...anyone notice that right before the "check battery/your dad's ghost is in the lobby" smoke detector beep went off, Jack was looking at x-rays of what seemed to be the same tumor on the spine issue as Ben's...? Anything...?

#24. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 7:33 AM

Hey Mac - Great Recap - Short, but still sweet.

I don't know if anyone pointed it out - I haven't read through the posts, but I just wanted to point out Claire's "daddy" decleration. She called him "Dad" when she saw him because she doesn't know his real name. When they where at the coffee shop he wanted to tell her his name but Claire told him she didn't want to know it. So upon seeing him in the jungle she called him the only thing she could - Dad.

#25. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 2, 2008 8:20 AM

I did notice one strange thing - when Jack was walking around in a towel in the FF there was no sign of a scar from his island operation. We know that Juliet stitched up the incision, so where's the scar?

#26. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 2, 2008 8:24 AM

@Mister_Grimm/25

True that Claire did not want to know his name, but something odd about that whole. First of all, it was dark, middle of the night and she could tell who he was from across the campfire...someone she only met once...? Also, calling him "Dad" did not make sense. "Dad" is not just a name...for someone to use the word "Dad", means that he would be more than just the man who fathered her and after their last meeting, their relationship did not appear to have reached that level. Starting to think that that was for story purposes only. They needed to set up the whole Jack/Claire/Aaron relations.

#27. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 8:27 AM

Re: Claire & Dad - The only other thing she could have called him was "you?" and that would have made no sense whatsoever. I think Claire calling Christian Dad makes perfect sense. That's all she knows him as regardless of their lack of a realtaionship.

Re: The Flash Forwards - I think it helps if we figure out what chronological order they happen:

- Sun gives birth. Explains why Hurley is ok.

- Hurley in the mental hospital. Hurley's not as far gone as he is last night and Jack is not drugged up.

- Kate's trial. This could switch with Hurley in the mental hospital.

- Jack & Kate living the dream.

- Drugged out Jack.

- Sayid and Ben's flash forwards are their own separate storyline from the others.

#28. Posted by: Joshu P. at May 2, 2008 8:43 AM

@boodle: 27

I agree - I'm just saying that it was the only thing she could call him, instead of "Hey there sperm donor guy". LOL. It's also strange that we assume she went with him willingly into the jungle. We only have Mile's word for it. It's possible that Ghost Daddy coerced Claire into going into the jungle with him by threatening to harm Aaron, he was holding the baby when she woke up.

#29. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 2, 2008 8:44 AM

Everyone has a theory about what is going on. It seems now that Hurley has his own theory -- they're all dead. Any comments about that?

#30. Posted by: Cissy at May 2, 2008 8:47 AM

Thanks for the short but sweet review Mac.

I agree that Claire calling Dr. Daddy "Dad" was somewhat for story purposes (just to remind the masses that he's Claire's Dr. Daddy too)...but I also agree with those that are saying it was just logical for her to say "Dad". She doesn't know his name, and it would've taken too much time to say "Man who knocked up my mum".

I'm so glad it's really really clear now that future Aaron is Claire's Aaron...there were some really out there theories floating around about how he could be Kate's bio-kid.

But I'm really bothered that Jack didn't actually come out and say to Kate "You're not even related to him...but I am!" or something like that. Just so we'd have confirmation that Jack really knows about his 1/2 uncle status. I DO think he was implying it to Kate, but I wanted confirmation.

#31. Posted by: JoePike at May 2, 2008 8:49 AM

@Clementine /19: Maybe Hurley was happy with Sun cos he didn't yet realize everything was "too perfect."

@boodle/23: 1) Jack wanted the cup of coffee after the trial, it was Kate who nixed it.

2) Juliet said her piece to Kate while she knew Jack was awake. As much as she likes him, she doesn't want to be used, or 2nd choice. If she confronted Jack, he'd disagree.

Therefore, to connect Clementine & boodle: Each of the O6 will slowly realize things aren't right. Hurley & Jack got it and descended into madness. When will the rest catch on? What will happen to Aaron? Will he become a sparkly-eyed genius? Will he send people into the cornfield?

#32. Posted by: hurling at May 2, 2008 8:50 AM

Yankees Bludgeon Red Sox in Sweep
August 28 29 30, 2007 (How'd that work out for 'em?) Kate has to be some kind of bitch to leave the paper open to that page laying around the house.
No way did Juliet take out Jack's appendix. (Rose, the island heals) (Jack, you are shaving the wrong area) (Bernard, I have to knock you out) She either put something in Jack or maybe he had a baby.

#33. Posted by: lostsox at May 2, 2008 8:52 AM

Re: The 2007 Newspaper article - Makes sense in relation to Aaron that they've been off the island for almost three years. It would mean that Aaron is not a freaky time baby. It also makes sense in relation to Kate's trial. There was no way, the way our judicial system works, that Kate's trial would take less than a year.

If we reason it out. The O6 get back to civilization in early '05. Kate gets a month or two celebrity status while the law figures out what to do with her (she would've been declared dead at this point with the Widmore/Ben cover-up). She goes to trial by late '05/early '06. Her trial goes for a few months. Acquittal by mid '06. Her and Jack eventually hook up.

#34. Posted by: Josh P. at May 2, 2008 8:57 AM

I noticed the scar thing right away, and I rewound it to be sure. The writers made a point of showing Jack's abdomen, where the scar should be. I think they want us to know that there isn't a scar. But Juliet definitely stitched him up, so maybe there's something to the time-travel thing going on with the future-flashes, or Jack's, anyway.
@Cissy/17: The first thing I thought regarding the absence of the scar was that Hurley was right. Jack wouldn't have a scar if he were dead. But I think there's too many details in the future stories for them to be dead, doesn't make sense.

@Clementine/19: The future flash can't be 2005, because Aaron is about 3 years old. So 2007 makes sense.

#35. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at May 2, 2008 9:22 AM

OK, as much as I hate the idea, here are a few of my thoughts on the whole "we're all dead" theory.

In this episode, we never actually saw Hurley, or Kate interacting with anyone. And the 2 times Jack interacted with that other doctor/nurse lady, it also happened to be when he was seeing Christian Shepherd. He also interacted with Hurley's doctor at the mental hospital, but his line of "He doesn't think I exist" kinda weirded me out.

I know we see the O6 (except Hurley, maybe?) interacting with other people in other episodes (Sun's birth, Kate's trial) but it seemed like they were being careful of that in this episode.

Another unrelated thought, why didn't Claire seem more freaked out by Christian Shepard not only taking Aaron and holding him while she was sleeping, but also just BEING on the island. I'm pretty sure I would have leaped over that fire to get to my child. She just looked slightly confused and then calmly wandered off into the jungle without letting anyone know where she was going.

AND as someone else mentioned, if Claire is dead but alive on the island and she'll die if she leaves the island, why couldn't Aaron just stay with her and she could still raise him? I don't understand why Aaron had to leave unless Claire is good and dead. And with Claire somewhere in the jungle and possibly near death while Kate is on the beach, then what in the world gives Kate the right to raise Aaron? How did she get custody? And how would Jack learn of his relationship to Claire and Aaron? Why would he not want to see Aaron?

So, yeah. I have a few more more unanswered questions.

And something else I've been wondering about this season that they haven't touched on at all is the relationships of all the Losties BEFORE they got on Oceanic 815. Obviously we know that they are all linked, but we still don't understand why or how.

Okay, I'm done rambling...

#36. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 2, 2008 9:22 AM

Josh, I was repeating what you said about the date, we must have posted at the same time.

#37. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at May 2, 2008 9:23 AM

notsoeasy, re Kate's having custody of Aaron, I think she told everyone when they returned that Aaron was her baby, so there was no custody mess to deal with. I don't remember hearing otherwise, but if I'm wrong, please someone let me know.

#38. Posted by: ChristinaLVT at May 2, 2008 9:26 AM

33. Posted by: lostsox
No way did Juliet take out Jack's appendix

Bernard confirmed to Kate that Juliet did a good job with the surgery

#39. Posted by: btly at May 2, 2008 9:31 AM

I had the strangest feeling after Hurley said they were all dead that we would end up seeing Island Jack die during the surgery. It would have blown our minds to wonder how he could die and then be alive in the future. Didn't happen though but the abscense of the scar still makes me go hmmmmmmmmm.

#40. Posted by: Arionis at May 2, 2008 9:32 AM

@hurling/32

You're right...I was mistaken...Jack wanted to get together, but Kate nixed it because she felt no point since he couldn't accept Aaron...

Aaron future will be sending people in the cornfield...HA...what a hoot!!

@notsoeasy/36

Interesting...O6 lack of interaction with "possibly live" folks. Don't forget...Jack walked a patient out of his office discussing what I think might be his surgery the next morning. Kate had conversation with the nanny after returning home from her trial when we first discovered she had Aaron and although we didn't see it, Jack relieved the nanny when he returned home early to grab a beer or 3 or 4 waiting to catch Kate in her "lies".

#41. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 9:37 AM

I had my appendix out when I was 15 (centuries ago...) and the scar is surprisingly low. Below my waist-line for sure. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that Jack's scar is below his towel line in that scene...seriously. In fact, I remember being very uncomfortable when I had to have a certain area of my body shaved before the surgery...which in reality is where Juliet should've been shaving Jack too.

Now that would've made for some great TV!

#42. Posted by: JoePike at May 2, 2008 9:39 AM

@ JoePike #42

I agree with you about the scar being low. My husband had an appendictomy a few years ago and his scar is right around his groin area....certainly not visible when he walks around in a towel.

#43. Posted by: Keluha at May 2, 2008 9:47 AM

I think they buried Karl and Danielle (in shallow graves, Mac) in order to make it look like they disappeared (for the islanders) or have the area attract polar bears.

Why was a multimillion dollar building protected with a smoke detector? I would love to see the insurance rates!

DYNNS: Did You Notice No Scar?

#44. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 2, 2008 9:53 AM

Re: The Scar - you're all probably correct about where apendectomy scars are generally located - but we saw where Juliet made the incision and later was stitching him up, it was not near his groin - it was a pretty lengthy incision just above his hip to the side of his abdomen - although if it had been near the groin female viewership would have skyrocketed.

#45. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 2, 2008 9:55 AM

I just wanted to let you all know I am here, and I am not MIF...nor am I MID. I haven't watched the episode yet, and am restraining myself from the review. By the time I get home and watch it there will be over 100 comments for sure. By then I hope I'll be "MID", but alas, then it will take longer to muddle through.

Until then, scarf and namaste to all.

#46. Posted by: meg at May 2, 2008 9:57 AM

I'm just really bothered by all the dead people showing up...walking around...talking to live people... Charlie, Dr. Daddy...

** PREVIEW SPOILER **


...and now next week it looks like Horace Goodspeed (or whatever his name is) is going to have a chat with Locke...


** END PREVIEW SPOILER **

So what's the deal? Are they really ghosts? Are they all Smokey in disguise like Yemi was when talking to Eko? I mean it still fits with the producer mantra that when you're dead you're dead, but we really need an explanation as to how and why these life-deficient people are interacting with alive people.

According to the psychic from season 1, the only way the world will be safe is if Aaron is raised by his mother. So maybe Dr. Daddy's 'abduction' of Claire is a step in the plan of some bad forces trying to keep him away from her. And maybe Charlie is on the 'good' side, trying to help convince Jack and eventually Kate that they shouldn't be raising Aaron, and they need to get him back to Claire on the island. Assuming of course that Claire isn't face up in the dirt...

#47. Posted by: JoePike at May 2, 2008 10:09 AM

@ Clementine/19 - "The newspaper article that Jack reads at Kate’s house
appears to have been taken from this NY Times article of August 31, 2007"

I think the article Jack reads in paper is from August 22, 2006. Most likely the LA Times. The Yankees just completed a 5 game sweep of the Red Sox - scoring 54 runs in the series (the bludgeoning). A-Rod had a great series batting .333, with an on base % of 571, and accounted for 10 of the runs (5 scored and 5 driven in) In the Aug 2007 series, the Yankees swept the Sox in 3 games, by a combined score of 14-6> But A-Rod had a very quiet series going only 2 for 9 with a single RBI.
Also, (although not 'canon') the date of the paper that Jack reads the obit at the end of season 3 is from April 2007, and that appears to take place after the scene in Kate's house.

#48. Posted by: vacc at May 2, 2008 10:10 AM

Let us never again speak of that five game debacle ;)

#49. Posted by: mac at May 2, 2008 10:13 AM

@44 - PiecesofArzt >> Why was a multimillion dollar building protected with a smoke detector? >>
The smoke(monster) detectors are to discourage patients and visitors from smoking - like the ones that are installed in airplane bathrooms. Smoking is an even bigger "no-no" in most hospitals.

#50. Posted by: vacc at May 2, 2008 10:21 AM

I just noticed something BIG! This is a major timeline discovery. In the opening flash-forward scene, Jack stepped on the Millenium Falcon toy from the Star Wars movies. Now, the very first Star Wars movie came out in 1977...stick with me here...which means that the date of this flash-forward has to be sometime AFTER 1977!

Can't believe I'm the first one to point this out.

;o)

#51. Posted by: JoePike at May 2, 2008 10:21 AM

@JoePike/51

LOL...I actually did "...stick with me here..." and all I could do was chuckle at myself!!

#52. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 10:27 AM

@19 Clementine

********PREVIEW SPOILER************

My theory (which I rehashed yesterday in the theories topic) is that Horace Goodspeed is Ben's real father, NOT Roger "workman" Linus.

As for the timeline, his being dead for 12 years places the Purge around 1992. Ben would've been in his late 20's at the time. Of course, to quote Faraday in last week's episode "time is a relative thing"

Am I correct that the Dharma Orientation video for the Swan predates 1992? If so, the purge could not be "the incident" the video refers to.

*******END PREVIEW SPOILER*******

#53. Posted by: vacc at May 2, 2008 10:36 AM

Flash forward date:

If you read the poorly written newspaper article, it states that Yankee Robinson Cano hit two home runs. He did so on August 30, 2007.

#54. Posted by: welh at May 2, 2008 10:50 AM

@9 - Not that Kate

"...who Kate later ended up with while she was on the lamb..."

People, people, fugitives go on the *lam*, not *lamb*.

=== No lambs were harmed in the creation of this post ===

#55. Posted by: Gramma Pole Lice at May 2, 2008 10:53 AM

After re-watch...when Hurley reads Charlie's message to Jack..."You're not supposed to raise him Jack." Hurley asks him if that makes any sense and Jack says it doesn't make any sense. Hurley asks him if he thinks Charlie meant Aaron... Why wouldn't that make sense to Hurley...it seemed to be obvious to me, but maybe there is another meaning there... Just wondering...

#56. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 10:56 AM

Can't believe I actually got to read mac's awesome review and all your comments today. It's a lot easier keeping up with the comments when you get here before they've reached over 100 posts!

******PREVIEW SPOILER******

I think the preview of next week's episode is what shocked me the most. When "that guy" says "I've been dead 12 years" I about crapped my pants. Can't wait to see where this is going! Maybe Hurley is right. Maybe everyone is dead. Maybe when your dead and get killed again, it's permanent? Nope - Mikhael (sp?) negates that theory. He's like the energizer bunny. Keeps going and going... However, we haven't seen him since he "blew up." Maybe that one really did get him.

******* end spoiler **********

So, can't wait to see how this all plays out. And I, too, can confirm that an appendix scar is quite low and mine is only about 3 inches long and you really have to look close to see it anymore.

Have a great weekend all.

Bunnies rule!

#57. Posted by: BunnyLover at May 2, 2008 11:00 AM

Well - i believe that the flash forward was in 2007....besides Aaron's age, I find the phones they use are a good clue (the ring of Kate's phone is the same as mine which we just bought in 2007). Jin's flashback, Jack's bearded flash forward - the cell phones and portable phones give the best clues of the time lines.

#58. Posted by: MissT at May 2, 2008 11:05 AM

As far as I'm concerned, the series can end right here! Jack and Kate get engaged, live happily ever after raising the bastard island baby and having lots of hallway sex. Too perfect! Please don't let it go down the tubes! :(

My favorite line of the whole episode:
Jack: "So when was the last time you did this?"
Juliet: "An appendectomy or shaving a man's stomach?"

#59. Posted by: Trinity at May 2, 2008 11:05 AM

@boodle - #56
when Hurley reads Charlie's message to Jack..."You're not supposed to raise him Jack."

At first I thought he was talking about Aaron, but after pondering I thought "maybe" Charlie meant you're not supposed to "raise him" as in Jack's father. Not supposed to raise him from the grave...

(queue spooky music - ooooowwww)

#60. Posted by: BunnyLover at May 2, 2008 11:07 AM

jin's flashlight said: "What's with the whole Sawyer-restraining order thing? 2nd episode in a row where he's uncharacteristically overprotective. Are they trying to set us up for some future development perhaps? Which will help explain why Sawyer and Claire apparently did not leave the Island."
______

I was re-watching Season 1 yesterday & was reminded of this tiny little tidbit TPTB gave us which I had carelessly thrown away: Sawyer had quite a connection with Aaron; his voice would immediately stop Aaron from crying. Sawyer was the only person who could settle the baby in Claire's absence.

So maybe if Claire is dead, Kate & Sawyer were supposed to raise Aaron and that is why Jack is melting down, because he knows on some level that Sawyer is the one who should be there with Aaron and Kate.

#61. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 11:11 AM

@55 - I was three glasses of wine into the evening, please forgive me.

I still think Kate's big secret is not that she's hanging with Sawyer, but with Clementine and Whatshername (the Long Conned).

#62. Posted by: Not that Kate at May 2, 2008 11:17 AM

@BunnyLover/60

Exactly...not sure about the dead dad theory, but we all know that assumptions can't always be made here. If it's so obvious, then why all that wasted interchange between Jack and Hurley...?

#63. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 11:19 AM

I can't believe in 41 entries this Best Line has been ignored!

Sawyer: "It's too early for Chinese" when he awakes to the annoying "I see dead people" guy.

Best visual: Sawyer holding a baby while still having a semi-auto strapped to his back. The juxtaposition was heavenly...
although my husband would argue Kate in her undies for most of the episode was the best visual.

#64. Posted by: herg at May 2, 2008 11:27 AM

For the ladies...

You can see Jack's scar here:
http://tinyurl.com/3vheon

For the guys, you can also see Kate in her PJs there...

Enjoy;)

#65. Posted by: IdMonster at May 2, 2008 11:34 AM

Just a quick thought on the whole "character name signifcance" thing. We have a good does of Biblical names in on the Island. Jack (Shephard) is clearly a Moses-Like character - being tasked with leading the people out of the proverbial Egypt. I can't help but think of the connection for him needing to be connected to Aaron. If you recall your Biblical history, Moses was fearful he was not articulate enough to lead his people, and God gave him Aaron. I can't help but think (despite Hurley's admonition via Charlie that Jack "shouldn't be raising" him, there is some necessary connection that in the long run plays out which the writers are using the Biblical name to suggest.

#66. Posted by: LostFan at May 2, 2008 11:35 AM

I thought this was interesting too. Found it on another blog:

"Millenium Falcon? Didn't even think about symbolism until reading this board. The Millenium Falcon was the rescue vehicle that saved the galaxy by rescuing the one person who had the plans for destroying the death star. Jack, Hurley, Kate, etc need to save the galaxy."

#67. Posted by: IdMonster at May 2, 2008 11:38 AM

JoePike #47 said:
"So maybe Dr. Daddy's 'abduction' of Claire is a step in the plan of some bad forces trying to keep him away from her. And maybe Charlie is on the 'good' side, trying to help convince Jack and eventually Kate that they shouldn't be raising Aaron, and they need to get him back to Claire on the island."

But, if you were an evil guy (or a smoke monster) and you were sending an apparition in to get someone to do your evil bidding, would you send them in as someone your mark hardly knows and has cause not to trust...like Dr.Daddy to Claire. Or would you send them in as someone they love and trust....like Charlie to Hurley. Heck...like Yemi to Eko.
Just a little somethinsomethin to complicate matters more.

#68. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 11:38 AM

Didn't post last week but read everything. Nice to be back, checking things out on Friday when I'm supposed to be working.

After this week's and last week's shows, I think I've about given up. I can no longer get all worked up for "answers," only to be fed more questions etc. I think I just gotta relax and let this show take me where it will, for better or worse.

Until, that is, Naomi (that's "I moan" backwards) comes back from the "dead" and proves me right all along.

Lovin' all the dead/undead theories. And i LOVE the fact (first noticed by shikotee?) that the smoke alarm was going off when Christian appeared to Jack, probably (or, actually, knowing this show, probabaly not) tipping of the fact that Smokey and Christian are one and the same.

So strange.

More scantily-clad Kate please...

And Mac, I dig the new "Lost Theories" section.

xo
-chopkins

#69. Posted by: chopkins at May 2, 2008 11:43 AM

Re: Hurley

I've been reading that the producers/writers have been saying that the finale will make us wonder how future and past flashes will be able to continue. When I saw Hurley in this episode I wondered about how his worldview fits into the larger mythology.

We know that Desmond can see into the future--at least one possible version of it. What if Hurley somehow has the ability to see all possible futures?

We're getting a lot of hints about the nature of time and perception.

#70. Posted by: Quagmire at May 2, 2008 11:43 AM

@mac

>Why did Claire call the ghostly Dr. Shephard "Dad"? She spent approximately 15 minutes with this guy in her backstories, yet when he shows up mysteriously on the island she's all "oh hi, Daddy!"? What am I missing here?)

And remember the one time she met him, she refused to call him 'dad' or even learn his name.

-------o

@mac

>...not only does he want to see little Aaron (his nephew, which he seems to know about)...

How do you figure that? From the "You're not even related to him" remark? I didn't get an implication of 'and I am', but I can see how that might be one way to read it.

-------o

@mac

>... (presuming Sawyer and Jin are kicking back with Dharma bear and English lessons).

Would that be of the Polar variety?

-------o

@12 davidrh croaked out:

>I’m really bummed out that Danielle is really dead. I’ve been waiting for that 16 year flashback when Ben and Friends kidnap Alex.

Hey there, grampa (young thing that I am, I didn't hit 62 'til March). Maybe we still get the promised Rousseau flashback through Miles - who knows how much he picked up in his
commune with the departed.

-------o

@13 undaunted prophesied:

>Looks like the previews give us a hint as to the nature of the forest whisperers.

*** POSSIBLE SLIGHT SPOILER ALERT ***

If the whispers transcripts posted in some websites can be trusted, some of the whispered dialogues seemed clearly to come from the deceased, e.g. Boone "Hi, sis!" (when Shannon appeared)

***END SPOILER ALERT ***

-------o

@19 Clementine asked:

********PREVIEW SPOILER************

>Was that Horace Goodspeed saying that he’s been dead for 12 years? Didn’t get a good look at him. I don’t think that fits the Dharma timeline, and no one else has mentioned it, so I’m guessing not. But I hope they’re not adding random dead people at this point.

Yes, that was definitely the old Roger recruiter.

And the Lostpedia timeline states:

"1992 4 pm December 19th, The Purge takes place."

So that would definitely place Horace's death 12 years before the late Dec 2004 events of next week.

*******END PREVIEW SPOILER*******

-------o

@bunnylover:

Taking the day off, or found a way around the blocking software?

-------o

@65 IdMonster pointed out:

>You can see Jack's scar here:

Thanks. And what an idiot I am. My first reaction was "The scar is on the worng side!" Then I remembered I was looking at a mirror image.

#71. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 12:01 PM

... and what about the freighter mercenaries surviving the wrath of Smokey?

#72. Posted by: dharma boy at May 2, 2008 12:08 PM

One point to add, JACK was Kate's husband to be now, she should tell him everything. She should have been up front to begin with. Sawyer would have got over it.
If he was off doing favors for Juliet she would have wanted to know.

#73. Posted by: Jane Sweetz at May 2, 2008 12:14 PM

@dharma boy/72

So much to talk about...forgot about that. Yeah, and the one guy that looks the most injured...was he the one that was trying to get away and Smokey grabbed him and pulled him back into the forest... Smokey was not known to "injure" and not finish the job. You also have to wonder, along with all the screaming in the woods during Smokey's terror, there was a lot of gun fire...assuming they were trying to shoot Smokey...like that even makes any sense. Wouldn't you think...in the woods, Smokey attacking, confusion and spraying gunfire, that a few of them would have been killed by the bullets from all their automatic weapons...?

#74. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 12:18 PM

I also wanted to add that I think Kate loves Jack in a father/brother way, but chose Jack because she thought he would be good for her and ultimately a good baby daddy. But I think she truly LOVES Sawyer, So she used jack. Its her fault they broke up.

#75. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 2, 2008 12:19 PM

@dharma boy 72

Good point. But to be fair, some of them did look pretty banged up, and we dont know how many there were to begin with, and now it appears theres only 4 or 5, tops. Perhaps in all the hubbub when Ben summoned Smokey/Christian/Weather Channel Wet Dream that the beast simply didnt have time to finish the job...

.... or was somehow, for some reason, instructed not to.

xo
-chopkins

#76. Posted by: chopkins at May 2, 2008 12:23 PM

This is my first post. Not very good at this. I did notice that Jack was driving his old Bronco in last nights episode. This was the same Bronco that was involved in the crash in the episode last season when Jack had the heavy beard. Not sure if anyone has pointed this out. Helped me with timeline.

#77. Posted by: Bobby at May 2, 2008 12:23 PM

Great comments so far. Need to think more on it, but here's my immediate $.02.

When I remove the battery from my smoke detector, it continues to beep until I put in a new one. If they quit beeping, that would defeat the purpose. (Loved the Smoke Monster connection/warning.)

What? He couldn't give her a bigger diamond???

#78. Posted by: lovelost at May 2, 2008 12:27 PM

-12 davidrh
-71 Cecil

Wow. Had no idea there was anyone older than moi here. I'll be 62 in Dec. Nice to have company. ;-)

Back to the 06: Aside from Kate's trial, she seems to be at peace - as opposed to Jack and Hurley, although Hurley eventually finds it, too. And Sun seems to be ok. And Sayid, too, until Nadia gets killed. Aaron's a baby, so he doesn't count (yet). So why are Hurley and Jack so tortured? Of course, there's still a lot to come, but they seem to be the only ones (so far) with visions. I'm going somewhere with this, but can't seem to pull it together.

#79. Posted by: lovelost at May 2, 2008 12:43 PM

@ chopkins 76

Also makes sense that the writers had to keep Cremie and a few mercs alive to set up the confrontation (per Mac) back on the freighter when Sayid channels Rambo.

#80. Posted by: dharma boy at May 2, 2008 12:44 PM

@IdMonster #65:

I stand corrected - there is a small flat scar on Jack's right side - that should quiet the rumblings about "The Scar".
And thank you 1,000 times for the Kate pics - my wandering thoughts thank you !

#81. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 2, 2008 12:48 PM

@ dharma boy 80

Man, I cannot wait for Sayid to get all pimp-tastic and finally beat some ass on the freighter. He effin rules so hard.

Did anyone notice in this scene when the mercs show up, that Lapidus is running AWAY from them with the first Aid kit... or did it just seem that way? It seems like Lapidus comes crashing through the jungle with the first aid kit, tells Sawyer, Miles, Clarron to hide, then Kreamy shows up with his walking wounded from the same direction that Lapidus just came from? Then when they ask where the helicopter is, Lapidus says "One click back this way" and leads them back the way they came??

Something fishy about that. Or could just be me.

Remember when I promised I wasn't going to get sucked in this week....?

xo
-chopkins

#82. Posted by: chopkins at May 2, 2008 12:56 PM

Silly sidebar question:

How is it that Smokey didn't get Keamy and all of his men? Even more curious is that some of them are injured, meaning that it did get some, but didn't go completely Ecko on them.

Is there a range or timelimit on Smokey once he's summoned to do a deed?

#83. Posted by: Neal Mindflood at May 2, 2008 1:05 PM

@ chopkins 82

... and I would think the Sayid "Pimp-tastic" LOL episode should be coming up shortly. The whole handling (at least at this point) of the mercs in last night's episode seems a little shakey.

-Smokey's half-as*ed butt kicking.
-Lapidus running himself into a coronary to help them?
-and good point, they did to a direct 180 degree turn back from the direction they came from.

#84. Posted by: dharma boy at May 2, 2008 1:08 PM

@83, Mindflood

Welcome to the convo, Neal... ;)

xo
-chopkins

#85. Posted by: chopkins at May 2, 2008 1:08 PM

One point in this episode confirmed my extreme dislike of the "Eggtown" episode wherein the facts and circumstances around Kate's trial were unbelievably wrong. If Kate was on trial for murder and in custody, Aaron would have been in family services foster care. But he was not. The only wild assumption is that Aaron stayed at Kate's home because there was a claimed biological father maintaining custody of his son. This episode shows that after the trial, Jack moves in with Kate which infers that there was no "Mr. Kate" pretending to be Aaron's father to move out.
It still puts the whole post-island Kate story line in the unbelievable column.

#86. Posted by: welh at May 2, 2008 1:14 PM

Re: The smoke detector - It was beeping as if the battery was dead, not as if it was going off because of smoke. If it was going because of smoke, that is one mellow smoke detector.

The theory that the smoke detector was going off do to Smokey being Christian doesn't really make much sense.

#87. Posted by: Josh P. at May 2, 2008 1:15 PM

sorry one of the worst reviews in a while- especially after last week. Blew past all the details of Hurley in psycho ward. Ignored the Lapidus exhange which had some telling moments.
Ignored the better part of the trek to get the gear for Jack... bad mac bad mac!

#88. Posted by: pezme at May 2, 2008 1:15 PM

Um...Mac apologized in advance and let us know the review would be more brief than usual. I thought he hit the most major points and did a great job...even in brevity.

I think yer gonna get pounded for your comments...even though you're certainly entitled to them.

#89. Posted by: JoePike at May 2, 2008 1:21 PM

...and in cases like that it's common knowledge in this blog that we're supposed to fill in the blanks for him with our comments... Mac is actually counting on that.

#90. Posted by: JoePike at May 2, 2008 1:23 PM

In regards to the missing scar. Sayid also was missing a scar in the flashforward with Ben.

If Sayid steals the helicopter, I guess he could fly it, and the other Oceanic 6 get on board, and they fly off without knowing they need to take a cetain heading, they could wind up in their future BEFORE they recieved the scars. Aaron wouldn't count as he was born on the island. So they would be on the island in island time and in the real world in real world time AT THE SAME TIME but minus scars they received later in island time. Like the doc being dead on the shore and alive on the ship. Maybe why that's what is bothering them, the feeling of being out of time and place and Hurley is more suseptible than the others.

#91. Posted by: berkyo at May 2, 2008 1:27 PM

→ 88. Posted by: pezme

-89 and 90 Joe Pike
Right on, Joe. How can anyone criticize Mac for anything? It's not like we're paying him to do this.

Mac rules. Period.

#92. Posted by: lovelost at May 2, 2008 1:31 PM

@88 pezme...

I think a half-assed smokey beat down might be in order, pez....

Oh my God, don't I have work to be doing?? Instead of "blasting" someone Ive never met, and probably never will meet, on this blog?

@91 berkyo--
Intriguing bit about Sayid thinking hes helping everyone out and saving the day, but really does more harm than good by flying off on the wrong heading. But isn't Sayid too much of a pimp to do somethign so foolhardy???

xo
-chopkins

#93. Posted by: chopkins at May 2, 2008 1:36 PM

@pezme: One of the lovely things about this format is that if I miss something -- either intentionally or unintentionally -- the comments mechanism acts as an editor, a gap-filler and an equalizer.

Moreover, I long ago came to the conclusion that people visit this blog because of the sum total of the experience -- comments, review, conversation, theories, etc. My review is, at best, a glorified comment with fancy formatting.

So, I encourage you to share your observations from the institution scene, the Lapidus scene and anything else that popped onto your radar. All thoughts and theories are welcome!

#94. Posted by: mac at May 2, 2008 1:37 PM

65. Posted by: IdMonster

Thanks for the photo.

Please disregard my earlier ramblings on why the scar is not there. Oh well.

#95. Posted by: berkyo at May 2, 2008 1:38 PM

@ 54 welh & clementine 19: Yep, that makes it the 2007 series - though much less of a bludgeon, and less worthy of Jack's "A-Rod" remark. I looked at the article closely, and the only factual error I found was a mention of the Yankees sweep in Aug 2006 as being three games, when it was actually five games.

Here's the text of the article :
By GREGG BILSON
STAFF WRITER
The sweep was more emphatic last August, when the Yankees rampaged into Fenway Park and won three games to bury the Boston Red Sox. The best the Yankees could do this time was to win three at Yankee Stadium and chisel a chunk from Boston's sizable lead in the American League East.
Suzy Allman for The New York Times Robinson Canó hit two home runs as the Yankees completed a three-game sweep of the Red Sox with a 5-0 victory. The Yankees have cut Boston's division lead to five games.
They have done that now, finishing off the Red Sox, 5-0, yesterday behind Chien-Ming Wang, who carried a no-hitter through the seventh inning. The Red Sox are not spiraling, not with a five game lead, but the Yankees are rolling again. "It was good, because as a team, we're behind," said Robinson Canó, who smashed two opposite-field home runs against Curt Schilling. "We need to start winning some games if we want to make the playoffs. We're a half-game up for the wild card, but we're not worried about the wild card. We're just trying to win games."
The Yankees increased that lead over Seattle to a full game last night when the Mariners lost to the Indians, 6-5.
The Mariners come to the Bronx on Monday for a series that could have some impact on the Yankees' playoff chances... (the rest is blurred)

#96. Posted by: vacc at May 2, 2008 1:52 PM

Great brevitious review, Mac. You just keep hitting the high points and we'll keep dissembling and arguing over the littluns.

I like Kate in her panties as much if not more than most, but at some point it seemed a tad gratuitous. I can't believe I just wrote that.

But I was looking for a little more substance in last night's ep. There's so many more juicier stories in which to delve that I was a little disappointed they spent so much time on Kate's panties. Well, not really, but...

And I know there had to be some kind of juxtaposition in the Jack stories (well becoming ill in one and ill becoming well in the other), but I just didn't get the relevance.

I think the more telling aspect of the thing was why does Jack get sick at all?The island heals those who are in communion with it. And if Jack isn't truly in communion with the island, why would he then be so desperate to return to it? Am I missing something here?

As has been discussed, it must somehow become known that Jack is blood-relative to Aaron otherwise there's no way Aaron would be left in Kate's care. And if Jack and Kate are married (maybe separated?) at the time of her trial that might explain why she has custody. And if Jack knows that Dr. Daddy is the baby-daddy that might explain his reluctance to become emotionally attached.

And as for Smnoky's not-slow and not-fast beatdown? Maybe Keamy & Co. have some kind of protective charm necklace like a crucifix or garlic or kitty litter...or a crucifix made of kitty litter...

#97. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 2, 2008 1:53 PM

Anyone notice the uncanny parallel between evil Ben smirk when Sayid "fell"in with his plans and Charlotte's smirk when Sun made his deal with her? Creepy!!!

Also, favorite exchange as Kate and Jack walk up the beach:
Jack says "In case anything should happen"
Kate interrupts "it can't"
Jack says "that's settled then"!!!!

Great to see Rose and Bernard together again


#98. Posted by: weepict at May 2, 2008 1:57 PM

@ 97 ransomjackson

"And as for Smnoky's not-slow and not-fast beatdown? Maybe Keamy & Co. have some kind of protective charm necklace like a crucifix or garlic or kitty litter...or a crucifix made of kitty litter..."

hahahaha, awesome. And perhaps true. Honestly, if Widmore knows as much about the island as we're led to believe, he must know all about Smokey, and so must have given his guys at least a heads up, right? Maybe there IS some way to beat the beast...

Seriously, I do have work to do...

xo
-chopkins

#99. Posted by: chopkins at May 2, 2008 1:59 PM

@5 shikotee said:

>I did find it funny that just before Jack sees the image of his father, the smoke detector is activated. Perhaps Smokie really is behind the apparitions on and off the island?

Except that wasn't the sound of a smoke detector going off (detecting smoke). That was the sound of a smoke detector with a low battery. Maybe Smokey is bundled electromagnetic energy and drains nearby battery operated devices?

#100. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 2:00 PM

@79 lovelost observed:

>So why are Hurley and Jack so tortured? Of course, there's still a lot to come, but they seem to be the only ones (so far) with visions. I'm going somewhere with this, but can't seem to pull it together.

Don't forget that Michael saw Libby - twice. I'm guessing Kate and Sayid and Sun will have their demons, too. Hope Aaron is spared.

#101. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 2:05 PM

@97 ransomjackson bemoaned:

>But I was looking for a little more substance in last night's ep. There's so many more juicier stories in which to delve that I was a little disappointed they spent so much time on Kate's panties. Well, not really, but...

And where is former poster KatesPanties just when we need him/her?

#102. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 2:12 PM

There has been no mention about the story that Jack was reading to a sleeping Aaron in the beginning of the episode. Believe it was Alice in Wonderland. (Not a stranger to reoccuring theme...) May not be a direct quote, but this is what I have:

"...Alice took up the fan and as the hall was very hot she kept fanning herself all the time she went on talking...Dear, dear how queer everything is today and yesterday, things went on just as usual. I wonder if I have been changed in the night. Let me think was I the same when I got up this morning? Where if I am not the same...the next quetion is...who in the world am I? Ahh...that's the great puzzle."

I think Jack reading that had definitely more meaning than just a sweet bedtime story.

#103. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 2:12 PM

Jack: "Will you marry me?"

Kate: "Taco night?!? Taco Night??! I don't do taco night Jack!"

#104. Posted by: CC Boston at May 2, 2008 2:14 PM

@103 boodle:

Is your first name "Kittenca"?

Very cogent comments, and in line with somme long time thinking I've had and will be discussing in my long-time coming review of "The Invention of Morel" over in the random topics area.

#105. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 2:18 PM

Sawyer nickname HOF: Donger (Miles)

#106. Posted by: CC Boston at May 2, 2008 2:21 PM

→ 101. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Re: Michael and his sightings. Geez, I totally forgot about Michael. I was counting Sayid in the 06.

I also must get back to work. Thanks for any clarification. My head hurts.

#107. Posted by: lovelost at May 2, 2008 2:22 PM

@CC: Did he actually call him Donger? If so, that goes straight to No. 1 Nickname as far as I'm concerned.

#108. Posted by: mac at May 2, 2008 2:24 PM

95. Posted by: berkyo

Who's to say the photo wasn't doctored?

Can't believe everything you see or think you see:)

#109. Posted by: IdMonster at May 2, 2008 2:31 PM

sure sounded like it, and i couldn't think of anything else that would have sounded like "Donger".


Automobiiillleee???

#110. Posted by: CC Boston at May 2, 2008 2:31 PM

→ 87. The theory that the smoke detector was going off do (due) to Smokey being Christian doesn't really make much sense.
(Just guessing, but I think that sequence qualified as a subtle joke by the writers, not a theory, unless of course the anomaly/apparition we recognize as Christian is really an Electro-Magnetic event that drains back-up 9 volt batteries in smoke detectors... that's my unified theory+joke).

→ 59.
favorite line... Juliet: "... or shaving a man's stomach?"
(I agree. No telling what Juliet and Goodwin were into... or... ewww! Her and Ben after that).

→ 61.
Sawyer had quite a connection with Aaron; his voice would immediately stop Aaron from crying.
(Sure didn't work this episode. The little guy was bawling up a storm at the end).

→ ##. re: Kate custody of Aaron.
As far as Kate passing as the bio-mom of Aaron, when she got on 815 as a very pregnant prisoner, you'd think US Marshall Ed Mars would have passed that on to his office. "Yeah, I've got Austen in custody and she's been real busy (8 months pregnant). Oceanic would have noted that too, discouraging her from flying - which they should have done for Claire. We keep trying to apply US laws to Aarons custody case, maybe Kate made an interim stop on the way back to the states and adopted under much less restrictive laws. Or Ben helped... he seems pretty good when it comes to fake/false/forged documents.

→ Me: Anyone notice the beer that Jack was going thru last night. Looks like "Anchor Steam" to me, one of my favorites... wonder if that is for the 'freighter' folks.

#111. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 2, 2008 2:35 PM

Maybe we're all way past jaded on the marketing claims of the past week's promo's, but I don't see anyone commenting on the preview voiceover that said, "The Island claims one of its own."

I kept waiting for someone to die, but no one did. The only thing that fits is Dr.Daddy taking Claire away. She being Non-O6, must belong to the island. And last night, she got claimed as such.

One problem: if Aaron is so important to the island mythology, (I suppose partly because he's the first child ever born there?) then why did Christian Shepherd not take Aaron, too?

Maybe Jacob/Dr.Daddy don't want the boy until he's grown, like Obi-wan during his hermit years? ;)

Any other guesses on what the voiceover might mean?

#112. Posted by: Bill at May 2, 2008 2:38 PM

Cecil # 102

That is exactly what/who I was thinking of in the midst of my bemoaning...

Boodle # 103

Re. Jack's reading Alice In Wonderland...I seem to have some recollection of one of the hatches being called something along the lines of The Looking Glass...hmmm...Charlie getting blowed up...Des's visions of Claire and Turnip-head getting on the helo...curiouser and curiouser...

#113. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 2, 2008 2:39 PM

I thought he said "Donner" (as in the Donner Party)

#114. Posted by: lostsox at May 2, 2008 2:41 PM

@Bill: I've heard the producers complain about the overblown marketing on a number of occasions (most recently during the Oceanic Six "reveal"), so I tend to ignore that booming voice. I seem to remember last season -- somewhere around the low-point "Stranger in a Strange Land" episode -- a similar voiceover proclamation that turned out to be complete crap.

Of course, nothing compares the insane "24" voiceover: "Next week, Jack Bauer DIES! ... (inside ... when Kim cries about her Daddy issues) ... BWAHAHAHAHAH!"

Lame-o.

@CC: A friend of mine actually ran into the original Donger once. He didn't know the guy's real name, but he was *sure* it was the Donger, all grown up.

#115. Posted by: mac at May 2, 2008 2:45 PM

@ Mac - yeah, I totally agree, so I wouldn't push it really far. But if we can't come up with some other weak justification for their claim (a la your Bauer dying inside example)...

then maaaybe the promo department actually gave us a clue for once.

Like I said, any other ideas?

#116. Posted by: Bill at May 2, 2008 2:48 PM

@115 mac:

>@CC: A friend of mine actually ran into the original Donger once. He didn't know the guy's real name, but he was *sure* it was the Donger, all grown up.

Somebody let me in on the joke. Who's "Donger"?

#117. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 2:51 PM

→ 112.
One problem: if Aaron is so important to the island mythology, I suppose partly because he's the first child ever born there?

(Seems to me Alexandra was born there too, shortly after arriving on the island, inside Danielle, who looked good last night. I think that is the cleanest we have seen her in 4 seasons - during a dirt nap).

#118. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 2, 2008 2:51 PM

@Bill: Well, if we play around with this "claim" concept, I suppose the following apply (tongue in cheek on some of these, of course -- all in homage to the marketing dept.):

* Dr. Daddy -- acting as island proxy -- "claims" Claire.

* Dr. Daddy "claims" Jack's sanity. I don't think Jack qualifies as one of the island's own, though.

* Karl is officially dead and he seemed to be a true Other, so maybe his rotting corpse serves as a formal island claim.

I dunno. That's the best I can offer.

#119. Posted by: mac at May 2, 2008 2:53 PM

@112 Bill wondered:

>...I don't see anyone commenting on the preview voiceover that said, "The Island claims one of its own."

>I kept waiting for someone to die, but no one did. ...

>Any other guesses on what the voiceover might mean?

Maybe a reference to Rousseau - being reclaimed in the most literal way?

Or Karl?

#120. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 2:55 PM

@Cecil: "Donger" is short for Long Duk Dong, a beloved character from "Sixteen Candles."

(Of course, the name and portrayal now come across as VERY un-PC, but back in the day, the Donger ruled!)

#121. Posted by: mac at May 2, 2008 2:55 PM

Cecil Rose/117

The most famous (maybe only) "Donger" I know of is the Chinese exchange student in the movie Sixteen Candles w/ Molly Ringwald.

#122. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 2:58 PM

@MorBid0 - I don't remember if we learned Alex's birth date, pre or post island, but I thought we'd been assuming she was about 16 years old and the taped message Sayid calculated to be 16 years old as well. Can anyone verify these details?

Speaking of Sayid's calculations, how might Danny's "time is relative" statement affect the true age of that message?

And how can Alex have been taken as an infant if the purge was only 12 years ago? Was she taken by Ben but kept with Richard & the hostiles for awhile?

I know one thing: this is still the best TV show ever made. I really need to get back to my project today... (!)

#123. Posted by: Bill at May 2, 2008 2:58 PM

Re Idmonster
"Who's to say the photo wasn't doctored?

Can't believe everything you see or think you see:)"

Isn't there anyone I can trust????;0

#124. Posted by: berkyo at May 2, 2008 2:59 PM

@ 107 lovelost

I ALWAYS forget about Michael/Walt. Not sure if thats intended on the producers' part or not, or if the two of them are just such forgettable (but somehow important) characters. I've always thought Michael sucked as a character.

I've also always been curious about how Michael/Walt aren't part of the 06. Certainly Walt's grandma knows something's up, but aint talking. And are we really supposed to believe that Michael was SUCH a loner/jerk/bad smelling man that he didnt have a SINGLE buddy notice when he got home. Or that nobody would notice? Man, it sucks to be him.

Just odd. I hate the Michael/Walt story arch... and I hate that its obviously so important to whatever the eff is going on on the freighter and the island...

This has probably already been discussed in great detail, but you got me thinkin' lovelost...

xo
-chopkins

#125. Posted by: chopkins at May 2, 2008 3:00 PM

@Mac very cool, that guy must have gotten tired of being called Dong about 10 years ago HA HA

@Cecil Rose
the movie Sixteen Candles had the 80's stereo-typical asian who's name was Long duk Dong, the "Donger".
unless you know the movie, the quotes don't sound funny at all though.

Classic lines from the movie like when he lost grandpa's car (ie. automobile) "Dong where is my auot-mobile? " "automooobbbiiile?"


what else "oooh sexy girlfireind" "the donger need food" "what's a happenin hot stuff"

the whole she's not here becasue she got married routine was classic too.

#126. Posted by: CC Boston at May 2, 2008 3:00 PM

@ Cecil Rose #71 - Nope, I'm not taking the day off. Having a slower than normal day at work and I FINALLY snuck around the blocking software the work nazi's installed.

It's good to be back... At least when I'm at work my posts are alcohol free! I, like meg, enjoy a drink or two or twelve after work and posting here while under the influence (shall we say PUI) can be rather embarassing but FUN!

Back on subject:
I am very curious why smokie didn't kill those guys as well. Of course, it took him a while one-on-one to beat the ba-jesus out of Eko. Hand of God???

#127. Posted by: BunnyLover at May 2, 2008 3:05 PM

@124 berkyo asked:

>Isn't there anyone I can trust?

Trust mac.

#128. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 3:06 PM

→ 123. Alex Birth?
(According to Danielle, she was 7 months preg, when her husband and expediton arrived).

When did we learn that "The Purge" was exactly 12 years ago? I thought the SWAG was sometime in the early '90s.

#129. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 2, 2008 3:09 PM

@Cecil Rose - Evidently we are too old to have seen 16 Candles in its prime. (Oh, no, 16 again! Does that mean we MUST watch it?)
Other movies I am too old to appreciate:
Ferris Bueller's Day Off
anything with Austin Powers
Dumber & Dumberer
Plenty more, but I don't keep track. None of them are in the same league as Blazing Saddles, are they, Cecil?

#130. Posted by: hurling at May 2, 2008 3:13 PM

@hurling/130

Blazing Saddles 1974
Sixteen Candles 1984

#131. Posted by: boodle at May 2, 2008 3:17 PM

Didn't Horace Goodspeed die in the purge? Preview has him say "dead for 12 years."

curious...

#132. Posted by: Bill at May 2, 2008 3:20 PM

In the newspaper clipping (Yankees bludgeon Red Sox) pic at getlostpodcast .com it shows a box score right below the article that shows Angels 8, Astros 4. Appears to have Willits and Figgins as the first two hitters for the Angels.

On June 20, 2007 the Angels won 8-4 over the Astros. This was the only Astros-Angels series during 2007 since it is an interleague game.

The Angels didn't have a game on Aug 30, 2007.

The Angels and Astros did not play each other during the 2006 season.

So I'm not sure how "canon" the Aug 30, 2007 date is.

#133. Posted by: Sock...Puppet...Guy at May 2, 2008 3:26 PM

@127 BunnyLover wiggled her cute nose and said:

>At least when I'm at work my posts are alcohol free! I, like meg, enjoy a drink or two or twelve after work and posting here while under the influence (shall we say PUI) can be rather embarassing but FUN!

Careful. Disney may write you out of the blog.

#134. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 3:28 PM

GRAA, Mac!

*****Preview spoiler*****

When Goodspeed says that he's been dead for the past 12 years, maybe he didn't mean literally. Maybe he meant that he was *presumed* dead for the past 12 years. Perhaps that opens it up for others from the purge to still be alive? I know Ben saw him "dead" but maybe he was just mostly dead and the island Miracle Maxed him.

*****End preview spoiler*****

I think Claire was out of it and followed Daddy, still carrying Aaron, into the jungle. That's the only way I can figure she would go with 15 minute Dad and away from her peeps. The island claimed her at that time, so Aaron was on his own. Just a thought, but what if Jacob was trying to force Aaron to stay on the island by trapping his mother there, not realizing that Jack would take him off? Thus, the island targets Jack in an effort to bring Aaron back and quickly drives him bonkers to that end. Hurley knows they shouldn't have left and gives Jack that Charlie-o-gram.

#135. Posted by: Lost Cause at May 2, 2008 3:29 PM

@129 MorBid0 pondered:

>When did we learn that "The Purge" was exactly 12 years ago? I thought the SWAG was sometime in the early '90s.

Horace said in the previews he died 12 years ago (2004-12=1992).

Lostpedia's Timeline places the Purge on December 19, 1992.

Which makes one wonder -

Was Alex only 12 years old at her demise? (Hardly)

Was Alex snatched by the Others back when they were "The Hostiles" and back before Ben had joined them? (In which case he 'adopted' a little girl, not an infant.)

Have we caught the writers in an error?
(Maybe).

Or maybe Horace and Lostpedia are both wrong? (Maybe)

#136. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 3:36 PM

I thought Horace Goodspeed was rotting away in a sanitarium courtesy of John Coffey from The Green Mile. BTW - Another Stephen King connection.

Otherwise, I really don't think you can trust whatever they say in the previews.

Criminy...they didn't say anything about Kate doing half the show in her bloomers and yet...there she - and they - were.

#137. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 2, 2008 3:43 PM

Although Smokey beat the snot out of the death squad, he sure didn't ekoize them. Maybe Smokey has to scan them first, then submit the scan for extermination approval. Maybe if someone is on that "List" we keep hearing about, they can't be killed by Smokey or anyone else. Maybe that is one of The Rules.
_________

Cecil Rose #101...you mentioned Sayid might see his demons down the line. I was re-watching Season 1 the past couple of days and noticed the writers made a point of bringing to our attention that Sayid claiming the body of his "terrorist" friend resulted in the one day delay in his departure from Sydney which put Sayid on flight 815.

But since last night I realize maybe what they were really bringing to our attention is that Sayid's claiming of that body prevented it's cremation and thus allows for the dead almost terrorist to visit Sayid at a later date.

AND...Although most of the 815 passengers were cremated in the plane, several were not, and we have seen Libby a couple of times.

Also remember The Others funeral service where they did a viking thing and set the raft carrying the body afire...Cremated. And after the Purge? All those bodies in an open grave which is a hell of a health risk but still no cremation?

All I'm saying is....I don' know what the hell is going on.

#138. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 3:43 PM

→ 136.
Oh, okay. Seems like using info from next weeks' preview to assist deductive reasoning for this episode, might fall under Rule #1 here and get the ***Spoiler*** warning... but who am I to say?

#139. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 2, 2008 3:46 PM

@ 133/ Sock...Puppet...Guy

The newspaper had to be either
a) a time clue referring to August 30, 2007
or
b) a concept clue showing that story could not
be true based on the surrounding, contradictory evidence (the Astros box score from earlier in the summer).

#140. Posted by: welh at May 2, 2008 3:50 PM

@ransomjackson #137:
>Criminy...they didn't say anything about Kate doing half the show in her bloomers and yet...

Ummmm - I don't see an issue - great wardrobe choice - Emmy nominee for sure for costume design ! ! !

#141. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 2, 2008 3:51 PM

Is anybody here so concerned about being spoiled they don't watch "next Week on Lost" at the end of the show?

For me, it gives me a week of speculation akin to the old Kremlin-watchers who'd try to determine who was who in the Soviet heirarchy *this* year by where they stood on the balcony during the May Day parade.

Which reminds me of an old "Hallmark Hall of Fame" drama about one such Politburo spparatchik who, stealing a glance at the place cards in advance, was stunned to find out he was no longer his customeary #3 position behind the premier. Fearing he was about to be purged, he tried to defect and denounced the government, only to be caught before he could get away.

As he was led away to prison and presumably execution, we see two party functionaries puzzling over how the former pol suddenly went crazy and threw away his career and his life "just as he was being moved up to number 2".

Moral: Make sure you have all the facts before reaching a conclusion.

#142. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 3:59 PM

Cecil Rose #136 I was just thinking the same thing! If the info on the date of the Purge is correct, Alex was 4 years old when it happened. Was she kidnapped by Dharma and Ben was raising her all that time which would explain how Widmore knows she is Ben's daughter. Or was she kidnapped by The Hostiles and adopted by Ben after The Purge when Ben was able to join up with them? In which case two things: #1. How did Widmore know about Alex? #2. How did Rousseau survive Ze Purge.

I just realized that Keamy could have sat phoned Widmore and said, "Good news, Ben has a daughter. We can use her for leverage."

#143. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 4:00 PM

Observations:
1. In Jack's office, why would a spinal surgeon have two sets of skull/head x-rays/CAT scans? I found that extremely out of place. Was this a cue that Jack is a head case?
2. In Kate's house, why is the Santa Rosa day room artwork doing on her refrigerator? Jack did not want Kate around Hurley because he was "nuts."
3. Bernard used the episode's title to Jack as a metaphor for a happy "dream" state, something that was forced upon him.
4. Hurley said to Jack that his perfect off-island was heaven. Hurley also said he was dead. They all were dead (then presumably in the same realm of heaven).

#144. Posted by: welh at May 2, 2008 4:07 PM

Hey guys, my first comments of the season. I have still been reading off and on just unable to post like I used to. Your comments re: Smokey have drawn me back in. D*** YOU ALL! LOL.
Good to be back.

I guess this is now at least the second instance of a dead somebody showing up off island, in the 'supposed' reality. So how do we suppose that Smokey is 'dead Charlie' or 'dead Dr Shepard'? How would Smokey be able to get off and back onto the island (assuming he has gone back -- funky timeline, you know)?

This is where I have always had issue with most of the Smokey theories. I understand most of the Smokey = dead people mirages comes from the Eko conversation with his brother and subsequent beat down. Do we truly know that Smokey becomes these people? Have Carlton and Damon more or less confirmed this in anyway?

I am aware of vacc's hypothesis of Smokey = Jinn, and while this has some merit, I am uncertain about the shape shifting attribute. Can someone cue me in why that seems to be rather well accepted?

#145. Posted by: BELost at May 2, 2008 4:16 PM

MorBidO:

I figure if it has been broadcast nationwide on ABC, it's not a spoiler.

#146. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 4:19 PM

Smokey = DJINN (not Jin)

http://community.channel4.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4290090682/m/5370043319/p/1

#147. Posted by: Houda at May 2, 2008 4:34 PM

@ 138/ undaunted

"Maybe if someone is on that "List" we keep hearing about, they can't be killed by Smokey or anyone else. Maybe that is one of The Rules."

The only people I know who make people Lists are
a) Santa Claus, naughty and nice;
b) St. Peter
c) Ben Linus.

#148. Posted by: welh at May 2, 2008 4:35 PM

Admittedly I did it up at the front of these postings - I utilized information in the preview for an assumption. We all are now doing it, but remember . . .

In last week’s preview, it showed Sawyer, Miles, Claire and Aaron hiding in the bushes from the bad guys and suddenly a baby cried and the head guy turned suddenly, menacingly toward the bushes...

HOWEVER, in the show, THAT DIDN’T HAPPEN. The baby wail we finally heard was at the end of the episode when Sawyer finds Aaron abandoned on the stump.

Since the days of the SATURDAY AFTERNOON MOVIE SERIAL, film editors have been making chumps out of us . . week after week . . .

So maybe we, including me, shouldn’t put all our apples (or assumptions) on what we hear in the previews . . .

you think.

#149. Posted by: davidrh at May 2, 2008 4:36 PM

@145 BELost queried:

>Do we truly know that Smokey becomes these people? Have Carlton and Damon more or less confirmed this in anyway?

Only indirectly. When fans were questioning why they hadn't seen Smokey for a long stretch (S-2, iirc), C&L said, in a podast, 'Maybe we have seen him and just didn't realize it.'

I think there've been a few other indirect references as well. 'Yemi' saying "What makes you think I'm your brother?" followed quickly 'his' dissappearance and a Smokey beatdown of Eko seemed to imply it as well.

#150. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 2, 2008 4:46 PM

Another observation: it may just be format writing, coincidence or cubical corporate thinking, but have you noticed the growing pattern that characters are replacing other characters in their original roles?

Examples:
Locke replaced Ben as Barracks leader;
Juliet has replaced Jack as the beach camp doctor;
Jin has replaced Sawyer as the beach sargeant of arms;
Charlotte has replaced Juliet as the spy in the camp;
Aaron has replaced Walt as the camp child; and
Sawyer having replaced Michael when you screamed "CLAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRE!" (That was annoying).

#151. Posted by: welh at May 2, 2008 4:55 PM

Okay, i've spent the last few hours catching up on everything, and first of all i have to say, it seems way too many people are ignoring rule #6. it was so frustrating reading thru posts and have the same questions come up time after time. so please, READ before you WRITE!

Now, onto the episode...
@ MorBid0 post #111

"Sawyer had quite a connection with Aaron; his voice would immediately stop Aaron from crying. 
(Sure didn't work this episode. The little guy was bawling up a storm at the end)."

I don't think Sawyer yelling classifies as his usual soothing voice. There definitely seems to be a connection between them.

@ Cecil Rose - post #136

As far as we can tell, Alex was approx. 16. We were told that Rousseau took Alex up to the radio station when she made her message, and Alex was taken shortly after that.

If the "Purge" took place in '92, that means Alex would have been approx. 4 years old - so either she was stickin around with the 'hostiles' until the purge, or it was something else that we don't know about yet...

Can't remember who posted it, but someone asked how Danielle survived the Purge - well, it wasn't a matter of surviving it, because she was never at the Dharma community. She's been on her own since the beginning.

Kinda sad to know that Rousseau has been there for 16 years and never managed to find any hatches, find the dharma camp, or discover ANYTHING about them, and here our Oceanic crew comes and figures it all our in a couple months!

All in all, i didn't care much for this episode. Sorry to all who loved seeing kate in her dainties so much, but seriously, after last weeks episode; all the excitement and intensity...jack needs an appendectomy. neat. i just want to follow Locke and Ben around! Take me to Jacob!!!

#152. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 2, 2008 5:12 PM

OH, also - re: Jack and Aaron...
i think it would be hard for Jack to take care of Aaron if he knew that Claire was his daddy's baby too. Maybe Aaron would serve as a reminder of his father's infidelity? That would go along with the assumption that Jack somehow discovers that they're siblings...

#153. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 2, 2008 5:16 PM

Welh #148:

Yep. But isn't Ben's list actually Jacob's list?

#154. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 5:34 PM

I think I have a young 'ilovejohnlockexx' on my hands.

My youngest (13) just got home from school and showed me a poem (1 of 3) she got an A on today from her English teacher. She says her teacher likes and watches Lost too.

(The Jacob plotline has always interested her the most and that is what she usually wants to talk about after the show aires. She is worried lately about the trek to find the cabin.)

- Locke's Prayer -
Now I lay me down to sleep,
With Ben Linus at my feet,
Guard me Jacob through the night,
And keep Mister Smokie out of sight.

- - - -
hmmm - what to do?, what to do? at least the other two poems weren't Lost related.

#155. Posted by: DocH at May 2, 2008 5:43 PM

Point numero Uno , has anyone thought about the fact that Juliet must know Jack is Claire's half brother. They knew everything about them, had 'detailed files' and she should know. Maybe she hasn't had the opportunity to tell Jack, especially cuz Claire decided to join the Locke camp.

Numero Dos . Seems like the smoke takes the form of that person's worst/best/hopeful figure. Maybe the smoke has no control over what it is seen as.

Three, I think they were all lost BEFORE they got to the island, they were found once they arrived, and were not meant to leave.

#156. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 2, 2008 6:17 PM

Best Line - Right in the beginning when Sawyer called the Ghost Whisperer guy "Donger". Come on, Sixteen Candles..."No more yanky my wanky...the Donger need food!"

#157. Posted by: Jamie at May 2, 2008 6:17 PM

I'm gone 18 hours and I have 155 posts to catch up on... (It's currently exactly 6:00 PM)... SAT 2's tomorrow morning. Let's see how far I get.

So let me start by saying, once again, I REALLY HATE the way Jack breathes... and this episode was FULL OF IT!

I was waiting for Jack to say that Hurley's crazy the whole episode... because he didn't say it to Hurley at the hospital, probably because that would totally reverse his treatment -- if he got any -- and just make him even more crazy. You can tell he was trying to avoid it.

Who did Jack say that to before? Maybe it was Hurley... I don't know, but he did that weird breathing thing he does and he goes, "you're crazy". Wow, that just sounded so obvious. Maybe it was Ben?

Anyway, Aaron has a REALLY BIG HEAD. And so does baby Aaron on the island.

By the way -- Sorry ealgumby... Your whole explination about how Aaron could be Kate's son just went down the drain... but to JoePike -- I still don't think he's one of the Oceanic 6, or at least he shouldn't be. Saying that I don't think he IS seems stupid right about now.

... I still owe you that chocolate chip cookie.

Since I didn't read anyone's posts yet, I'm thinking that the whole, "you're not supposed to raise him, Jack" thing from Mr. Charlie Pace may have been for the same reason that the psychic told Claire that she wasn't supposed to let anyone else raise him.

Sorry if I'm repeating anything anyone is saying.

So wait -- All this time it seemd that Smokey was the one taking the form of people after getting into their heads. (Am I wrong?) If so, then unless Jack and Hugo are just "seeing things", then did Smokey follow them? I doubt it.

So what's up with Bernard? Why does he know everything about everything?!?! I thought he was just a Dentist, not Rambo! Apparently he is... although I have no idea who Rambo is.

Somehow he knows Morse Code and knows a lot about surgeries... and appendectamies (I don't know how to spell it).

Bernard has been very interesting lately... I think it started with the whole "I guess we're the good guys, huh..." in his talk to Jin. I have a feeling he's going to have a great deal of importance in the future... and for some reason he and Rose don't leave. -- I thought she changed her mind about not wanting to leave. -- and I thought you could leave the "special place" after you're healed without getting worse again.

When Juliet started talking about the kiss between her and Jack, the first thing that came to my mind was, "Dang she's such a B****!" But then she became a nicely jealous b****.

This episode teaches us a lot about Miles as well. So we know he can "hear" what happened when the person died... not necessarily "see". So I guess he can "hear dead people" rather than "see dead people"... but that hasn't been confirmed yet. Apparently he could see Christian -- but once again, if that was Smokey, I guess other people can see them too.

So it seems that everyone had a "choice"... and it was a group decision for who goes and who stays. Obviously either Jin died, or he stayed. -- It seems as though he was willing to do anything to get Sun off the island.

I personally think Jin did not die, and he is simply still on the island with Sawyer.

I also think that the person on the phone was Cassidy -- Considering the fact that both Sawyer and Kate know her, when Sawyer told her what he wanted her to do, she realized that she already knew her. Maybe it was something about Clementine?

I just wanted to say these things before I forget. Now I must read the posts.

#158. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 2, 2008 6:25 PM

51/JoePike "I just noticed something BIG! This is a major timeline discovery. In the opening flash-forward scene, Jack stepped on the Millenium Falcon toy from the Star Wars movies. Now, the very first Star Wars movie came out in 1977...stick with me here...which means that the date of this flash-forward has to be sometime AFTER 1977!"

I have to disagree. Everyone knows that Star Wars takes place "...a long time ago, in a Galaxy far, far away."

It's obvious that Kate, Jack, and Aaron have traveled back in time to some distant planet and, judging by the size of Jack's paper, have somehow become giants. [8^)

#159. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 2, 2008 6:34 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/158
"Sorry ealgumby... Your whole explination about how Aaron could be Kate's son just went down the drain"

@JoePike/31
"there were some really out there theories floating around about how he could be Kate's bio-kid."

AACK! NO, NO, NO, that's not what I meant!

I was trying to point out that Aaron was meant to SEEM to be Kate's child post O6 rescue, not that he actually was! In fact, this epi STRENGTHENS my theory, rather than the other way around ... I am now more confident than ever about being right ...

I will explain this in a shortly coming post, but simply needed to set the record straight on this first ...

#160. Posted by: ealgumby at May 2, 2008 6:44 PM

55/Gramma Pole Lice "People, people, fugitives go on the *lam*, not *lamb*."

I guess if they couldn't find any other place to pee, they might go on the lamb.

#161. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 2, 2008 6:49 PM

"People, people, fugitives go on the *lam*, not *lamb*."

I guess if they couldn't find any other place to pee, they might go on the lamb.
____________
Or if they are really tiny. A lamb could be the size of a Clydesdale.

#162. Posted by: ANON2 at May 2, 2008 7:00 PM

162nd!!!

Okay, for some reason, my brain thought that the "Kate-n-Jack Donna Reed Show" was post mountain-man-bearded-Jack. I got the feeling that after his "we have to go back"-fest at the airport, he cleaned up his act and decided to let his champioining to get back to Magic Island go. This way he could live, albeit without admitting to the guilt over whatever they left behind, with Kate and Aaron. But given Hurley's creepy ass warning and then actually seeing Dead Dad in the office building, he convinces his friend to write him another 'scrip and, thus, begins another spiral downward.

So my question is, and I am really not being faceitious, is there any proof at all that Bearded Jack pre-dates Engaged to Kate Jack? The deeper we get into the episodes of this show, the more I find it hard to follow the time line, and I know I have sought answers about that before here, so maybe someone can hlep me out? Am I forgetting clues we were given about the flash-forward timeline? Do we know...when the funeral was? When Jack tried to jump? When Jack visited Hurley the first time? What year Kate's trial was? HELLLLLPPPPP!!!! I would appreciate any answers...

Thanks :)

#163. Posted by: Vikki at May 2, 2008 7:01 PM

not to rain on nay1s parade, but when a firedetecter beeps like it did in the movie, it means its low on battaries, but lost isnst totaly based on real life, so it could be detecting smokey, but i doubt it

#164. Posted by: John at May 2, 2008 7:20 PM

about Kate & Jack running around in their scivvies, good for them, hence the title -something nice back home- but honestly, before we saw Kate, then Jack rolling out of bed in the morning, and the red ladies bvd's on the floor, i thought, well Jack is a little kinky, but he has had a rough time.. whatever floats his freighter.

#165. Posted by: ANON2 at May 2, 2008 7:24 PM

@ shikotee - 5
Good point about the smoke detector going off and it being Smokey! Kind of supports what I said in my previous post.
_____

I guess the freighter has some "nice guys"
1. Frank Lapidus
2. Miles??

Not convinced about Faraday or Charlotte. I don't like Charlotte too much.
_____

@ Not that Kate - 9
Great minds think alike!
_____

So I only read 12 posts so far... and I just realized that I pretty much repeated everything everyone else said.

So much for originality.
Sorry guys!
_____

@ Cissy - 17
That brings back the whole "hell" theory from season 3 I think? They thought the island could have been interpreted as hell.
_____

I'm kind of upset that there was no Benjamin Linus WHATSOEVER this episode.

...this bites.
_____

Jack didn't kiss Aaron goodnight... Don't you think he should have -- I mean, especially if he knew that he was his nephew and potential son.
_____

@ JoePike - 51
Genius!!! Haha.
_____

I actually recognized Kate's house by the staircase. So I expected Kate to come out of the shower.
_____

@ Trinity - 59
Actually, that's not true. We know that they don't end up getting married because of the season 3 finale "Through the Looking Glass".
_____

I hate happy endings, and I hate mushy stuff. (i.e. Jack and Kate).
_____

@ IdMonster - 65
Nice one... So I guess you can actually see the scar.
_____

@ pezme - 88
Uhhh... don't diss papa Mac! As JoePike said -- He appologized for it in advanced and I thought for the brevity of it, he definitely deserved a GRAAA Mac! He left it open for everyone else to mention the details that he didn't have time to mention.

You are officially on my hate list.
______

Keamy is EVILLLL.
______

So... Maybe there is more than one Smokey?? In one of the stills of him, it looks like he has "three heads"?

I'll try to find that link.
______

I have decided to leave off at 122 and continue tommorrow after SAT 2's.

This is me being "responsible". I have a feeling I'm not going to go to sleep and end up reading it.

By the time I eat dinner, and all... It'll be around 9:00. That's way to early to sleep!

#166. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 2, 2008 7:32 PM

I first presented a theory in the "Meet Kevin Johnson" thread (#532 & #538) to explain why Kate is *assumed* to be Aaron's mother after the O6 rescue. Based upon last night's epi, I am more convinced than ever of my theory's validity. I'm going to rehash it now, because I think it is important in terms of understanding last night's epi. Most of this going to be cut-pasted from the previous thread, with slight updates ...

We now know definitively that Aaron (Claire's baby, NOT Kate's!) is *assumed* to be Kate's child (by "the world at large") after the O6 are rescued. Yet, how the hell is Aaron *supposed* to be Kate's baby? If conceived on-island (with Sawyer?), then how is it that Aaron is one of the O6, yet Ji Yeon isn't born until the expected term after their "rescue?"

*IF* the O6 arrived off-island in early 2005 (as most presume), then the ONLY conventional "explanation" is that Kate was already pregnant with Aaron pre-flight (ala Claire's term), but if this were the case, surely Marshall Mars would've noticed/reported this (yet Kate was NOT obviously near term like Claire upon boarding the plane). That was certainly not the case (and too big of an oversight to ignore).

This leads me to an alternate (and I'd like to hear arguments against it!) solution ... the O6 arrived off-island well past early 2005 (I'd now estimate close to September 1st, 2005) due to time-travel issues (it is never established in the "Eggtown" court scenes when they were "rescued").

Before you poo-poo me too quickly, think about it ... let's say the O6 leave the island fairly "soon" in the timeline of the show, say January 2005 (or VERY late 2004 to satisfy the sticklers out there). Yet they "arrive" off-island (due to wrong course ... see "TSoTtC" post #254 for who this "works" in terms of accepted theory) in late 2005! Rather than try to explain the time travel, they (the O6) stick to the story that they were stranded on-island until then ... i.e., Kate got pregnant on the island (maybe from Sawyer or some other "non-survivor") soon after the crash, gave birth mid-2005 on-island, and Sun got pregnant via someone (Jin, or more likely otherwise, according to their mutually agreed upon LIES after being rescued) shortly (first trimester) before they were "rescued?"

It makes sense timeline-wise! I know, Lostpedia has Sun giving birth mid-2005, but Lostpedia is NOT canon. Their estimate is based on the O6 getting off-island in the timeframe that would "conventionally" make sense for her giving birth (and there is NO canon evidence to support the presentation of Ji Yeon's birth date on Lostpedia ... they are just presuming what "makes sense") ... the only problem is it doesn't explain Kate "legitimately" being Aaron's mom (and a big problem it is!). If Kate were not pregnant and near term when she boarded the plane, then she could NOT have already given birth to a two-month old child! BTW, Lostpedia gives Aaron's true birth date as November 1st, 2004, which does make sense in terms of CANON evidence.

Now, someone recently told me Lostpedia gets the July 2005 birth date from the label on the bag with Sun's ring. So, I took a pic of the bag/label to the Korean deli near my work, and had the owner translate it for me ... the first line says "client" (i.e., patient) followed by Sun's name, and the bottom line says "nurse" followed by (I assume) her nurse's name; there is no date on the label. [PS: The producers' have recently acknowledged her name on the bag was incorrect due to a production error. Serendipitously, I never asked my Korean friend to translate her last name at the time; I just asked "Is the client's name Sun?" which he confirmed ... had I known her last name was incorrectly printed on the bag, I may have headed off in a completely erroneous direction].

This makes sense to me. If I am right, they wouldn't be so obvious as to put "April 2006" or some other unexpectedly late date on the bag; they would not post a date, as is the case, to maintain the mystery. Of course this doesn't prove it ISN'T July 2005 when she gives birth, but does not confirm it as some people apparently think. This would be consistent with the writers "surprising" us later with the revelation that the O6 were rescued much later than most viewers (and Lostpedia) believe.

Other parts of the puzzle are (IMO) also coming into place as well ...

First of all, why did they say eight originally survived? My guess is that there needed to be an explanation for "Kate's" baby Aaron, and Sun's pregnancy ... both are neatly explained by "fathers" who subsequently died, leaving no paternity issues for Kate/Sun.

Jack cannot, even by the lie, be Aaron's father, because the court would've immediately given custody of Aaron to doctor Jack, rather than indicted criminal Kate; but if the "father" were supposedly dead, she could retain custody until trial [welh's objections aside ... there has to be some production license involved here].

Hence, the lie that eight survived the crash ... they needed "fathers" to explain the babies. Why wouldn't Sun have said Jin was the father, and later died as one of the two? I don't know ... and maybe she did, but also, perhaps in the heat of the moment after rescue, in the process of formulating the lie, she inadvertently mentioned that he had died in the crash ... or perhaps, the two "dead" were actually recovered bodies, obviously neither of whom were Jin. In either case, Aaron's supposed father had to be someone with no family, or Kate would risk losing custody to them ... who fits that bill? Methinks Sawyer. Sun's supposed lover (other than Jin)? Do not know.

Second ... why doesn't Sun wear her ring, and why weren't her parents present at Ji Yeon's birth? Again, this makes perfect sense if my theory is correct. Sun would've explained her pregnancy as the result of a relationship with the "dead" father post-crash. Mr. Paik is probably aware that Jin was "infertile" anyway (dude has connections everywhere), so would tend to believe he was not the father; Sun's pregnancy would then likely be seen as a family disgrace. Hence, the absence of Sun's parents at Ji Yeon's birth. Likewise, having given birth to another man's child, Sun might not be so bold as to wear her Jin wedding ring in public post-birth (I suspect there would've been parental pressure involved); she only put it on when visiting his "grave" with Hurley, out of respect for her true love (whether she knows he's really alive at the time or not).

Third, remember how Jack et al were so concerned about how "long" it took for the chopper to reach the boat the first time? Now imagine they still have means of communication after the O6 left ... but never hear from them (because they "arrive" months in the future). The remaining Losties/others would've assumed them to be dead, probably not thinking they time-traveled into the future so far. This could influence a LOT of post-O6-departure drama on the part of those left behind!

This also leads me to believe (another WAG), that the O6 departure was part of some planned evacuation of the Losties (probably orchestrated by Jack), and Jin chose (?) to remain behind, just wanting to get Sun off-island as sson as possible (after last night, probably based upon a Charlotte deal). I'm further guessing that, true to form, Locke was somehow responsible for the O6 flight running into trouble, and ending up in the future.

In synopsis ... I predict we will find that the O6 flight time-traveled into the future on the way off-island, and the subsequent lies were agreed on in order to protect (primarily) Kate/Aaron, but certainly other wrinkles yet to be revealed.

I feel pretty strongly about this one ... nothing else make any sense timeline-wise, but this simply resolves all the troublesome issues.

OKAY, that's my theory, NOT that Kate was in any way supposed to be Aaron's biological mom, just trying to explain why she could be *considered* to be post O6 rescue by the outside world, without raising suspicion.

NOW fire away if you will, but not based upon an incorrect interpretation of what I was trying to say ...

#167. Posted by: ealgumby at May 2, 2008 7:34 PM

@ChristinaLVT/38
@welh/86
@MorBid0/111

Thanks for providing evidence which supports my theory (whether you agree or not!) ...

#168. Posted by: ealgumby at May 2, 2008 8:06 PM

@Cecil Rose/128

>>>
@124 berkyo asked:

>Isn't there anyone I can trust?

Trust mac.
>>>

Trust no one!

#169. Posted by: ealgumby at May 2, 2008 8:08 PM

Okay, heading "out there" again, and going to jump on this one because no one else has ...

"I've been dead twelve years"

Hmm. Actually makes sense, according to my "radical" TSoTtC post (#220) ...

He's an "other" and his "original" died twelve years ago in the purge ... end of mystery. No need for "living dead" or other explanations (IMO, even more obscure).

#170. Posted by: ealgumby at May 2, 2008 8:25 PM

Ok, I'm more drunk than Meg at 2am saturday morning so you can ignore this or accept that I'm connected to the island.

Anyway.

Has anyone ever read "Flatland" by Edwin Abbott? One of my fav books.

So if you were living in a one dimensional universe, say there was only "lenght" where you only lived along a line, you could only see in front of you and in back of you. Someone in the 2-dimension universe could see the whole line. If the entity in the 2D universe entered into your 1D space, you would only see a point, but they could see your entire line, i.e. your whole existence.

If you livec in a 2D universe, with length and width, you wouldn't be aware of an entity in the 3D universe. But if someone in the 3D world intersected your 2D world, say a sphere, you would first see a point, then a circle, then a larger circle, then a larger one, then a smaller one, and so on, until another point, and it would disappear.

But the entity in the 3D world could percieve the entire 2D world without the 2D world knowing that the 3d world existed.

So, we live in the 3D universe. But there can be 4 or many more dimensions. For example, the 4th dimension may just be our 3D (lenght, width, heigth) * Time. I.E. Spacetime.

So if Darma/Ben/whoever found a way to step outside of the third dimension, they could travel anywhere withing their 3D ezixtence.

Back to the 1D line. If your life was a line in 1 dimension, only a line, you would only see the next consecutive point occurring on the line. But if you stepped into the second dimension, and could see the whole line, you could intersect the line at any point, thus moving back and forth along the line. Your entire life is the line. In 1D, you can only see the next point in the line. In 2D, you can see all points of the line.

So we live in 3D. But anyone in 4D could see every point of your life occuring in 3D.

Ok, so what the H am I talking about?

I think that Ben, via the island capabilities, can see outside of our 3D perspective of the universe, and see the entirety of peoples lives, i.e. the whole line. Which is how he's knows all the details of peoples lives.

So speaking of fate. For example, Micheal was supposed to live to return to the island. He couldn't kill himself. There's much more to say here but I don't have time for it. This probably doesn't make sense but what I'm getting to is...

Ben knew "the line" if you will of his daughters existence. She wasn't going to die, which is why he was so confident that Keamy couldn't kill her.

But he did kill her. And the rules of the universe changed. I think the "rules" are much more significant than people are giving it credit for. Somehow, the laws of the universe changed, otherwise, Ben's daughter couldn't have died.

I have no idea what that means or if I'm making any sense whatsoever. I need another shot. This one's for Meg:)

#171. Posted by: IdMonster at May 2, 2008 9:14 PM

ealgumby #167:

The problem I'm having is that we are assuming that the world assumes Aaron is Kate's biological son or we assume that Kate is passing Aaron off as her biological son. Admittedly, I may have missed something, but I do not recall anything being said in reference to Aaron's being anything but Kate's son; neither adopted or biological...just her son. She had raised him since his mother died in child birth on the island.

The only thing that implies Aaron has a blood tie to Kate is Kate's mother wanting to see her grandson. And even that is a stretch, because most people consider an adopted child to be every bit as legitimate as a biological child.

Also: There were 4 other adults rescued from that island. If each of them provided sworn affidavits to the Court that before she passed Claire gave custody of Aaron to Kate, the Court would honor that in the absence of a biological relative's claim. Even if a biological relative came forward with a claim, the Court would still have to give weight to the mother's wishes as stated in the affidavits of the four witnesses to her statement. If a biological relative did come forward with the intent of being granted custody of Aaron for his monetary settlement, if Kate gave that person her settlement, or Hurley paid them off, or some such thing, that would take care of that.

The court would not place Aaron in a foster home unless Kate was in jail and my guess is that The Court would not jail her because she isn't a flight risk (no pun intended) because she had just voluntarily returned to the US as per her extradition and she self surrendered. But even if they set a bail, she posted bail and she's not guilty until she is found guilty so Aaron is safe with her until/unless she is convicted.

So there is no need for a time adjustment to explain anything.

#172. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 9:36 PM

idMonster #171:

I think I follow your reasoning.

So when Ben said, "He changed the rules" your hypothesis implies that Ben was NOT referring to Widmore?

#173. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 9:47 PM

@undaunted/172

welh, or other legally-inclined people out there, help me ...

undaunted, I simply do not have the legal background to challenge your suppositions, and will leave this issue to those that do ... my "gut" instinct is that your suggestions are wrong, but then again, I am not a lawyer (and perhaps you are, justifying your position). Am quite willing to admit to being wrong, but need more info than just your sayso ... (and please don't take that as an insult ... just don't believe you)...

#174. Posted by: ealgumby at May 2, 2008 9:53 PM

@undaunted/#138 and BElost/#145 and Cecil/#150:
re Smokey's cameos

From the producer's podcast of 3/21 (as recapped by me under "Meet Kevin Johnson):

What is the significance of the monster forms?
Word Association between Damon and Carlton:
BEN’S MOTHER EMILY – apparition
WILD BOAR OF SAWYER – animal
SPIDER THAT POISONED NIKKI – Monster? (joking)
BIRD OF HURLEY – no comment
DAVE – figment of imagination /slash/ apparition
YEMI – monster
MIKHAIL’S CAT “NAOMI” – animal (and coincidence)
WALT – “Walt the person is a person, but there are apparitions of Walt that may not be Walt and also monster-related”
BOONE – Monster? (joking) Boone is a person, but in Locke’s dream, he is a dream
JACK – is an apparition, that’s the big twist (joking!!!)
KATE’S HORSE – There is a board in the writer’s room with headshots of all the actors. There is a Deceased and Undead category. There are 3 pictures under the Undead: Christian Shephard, Yemi, and Kate’s Horse

At first I thought, maybe Smokey uses the unburied on the island as vessels (heaven forbid Sawyer ever dig up Paulikki!) That theory works for Yemi, Christian and Charlie, but it doesn't explain Kate's Horse. Unless it was stashed in the cargo hold for some bizarre reason. Or Libby, who is six feet under. Although she appeared on the freighter, not on the island.

Which leaves us with the theory that Smokey can take an image from a person's memory and bring it to life (or something resembling life.) For some reason, I like the idea that the island is producing the apparitions, and they are not, in the strictest sense, "ghosts."

Re how Smokey can do this off the island: I don't know. But I do think it's happening, because I'm convinced I saw a black vapor trail follow Abaddon as he exited the room at Santa Rosa. Not conclusive evidence, but I BELIEVE :)

#175. Posted by: Clementine at May 2, 2008 9:57 PM

ealgumby: No offfense taken! Please do not feel the need to ever apologize to me for disagreeing with me or not believing something I suggest. My ego isn't tied up in this stuff!

I worked as a courtroom clerk; in criminal court mostly, but also in family court from time to time. I am not a lawyer, but I observed and recorded an awful lot of of legal goings on. Still....I get your drift and I will try to provide you with evidence of the validity of what I said.

#176. Posted by: undaunted at May 2, 2008 10:07 PM

@undaunted/176

No offense taken here either, and enjoy your ideas ... something to chew over (taken from a welh post in MKJ #559) ...

>>>
If you go back to the Eggtown episode blog, I went into detail about the gross factual errors in regard to Kate's trial/custody/etc.

Once Kate was charged and held in custody for murder, her "child" would have been into state child services care because a housekeeper is not a guardian of a minor child but a stranger. The only way that the child could remain in Kate's house during her trial if the child's FATHER had custody and was living there.
>>>

That does NOT seem to be the case ...
that's why I mentioned production liberty w/ regard to this issue ...

BTW you can argue with welh re child protective services rules in CA for an accused felon w/ child when apprehended ... my "uneducated" assumption (with regard to the actual legalities) was that she could retain "custody" with lack of otherwise supporting family members, and "assumed" the production team went along the same lines ...

I may be wrong, but seemed pretty good to me at the time (and still does) ...

#177. Posted by: ealgumby at May 2, 2008 10:26 PM

Just finished watching the show on my DVD-Recorder, well, I guess Jack and Kate made up for LOST time (pun intended). It's funny, for about two weeks, I thought the writers were really serious about the whole Jack-Juliet thing following the Juliet flashback episode. Of course that was blown to bits as soon as I saw Kate's super flirty come hither look last week, plus the fact that there were no Jack/Juliet post-coital morning scenes either.

After that I knew Jack and Kate were scheduled for an Appointment in Nookie Town (props for that phrase, Mac.) It's interesting I had nearly forgotten about Cassidy and Sawyer's kid, I guess that was why they did that whole Learning to Con Kate flashback. Further proof that the writer's do know what they are doing most of the time, Following many on-line complainers I'm sorry to say, I thought I was just another retreaded chapter from Kate's life.

If Kate is visiting Cassidy, than Dead Charlie via Hurley really put some serious voodoo on Jack's emotional state, considering that Jack was about to pop the question that week. That combined with visits from dear old daddy dearest were enough to send Jack into the paranoia abyss.

I guess the lesson that the Oceanic 6 are learning is that none of them is happy, Jack and Kate because they can't be together, Sayid because Nadia was murdered, Hurley because he talks to a dead guy, and Sun because she isn't with Jin dead or alive.

One last observation: Was just me or did it sound like Juliet was in the shower at the beginning of the episode. I swear it sounded just like her and then with each subsequent syllable sounded more like Kate. It was like that scene in Lord of the Rings when they blended Christopher Lee and Ian McKellen's voices together before revealing it was McKellen.

#178. Posted by: unladenswallow at May 2, 2008 11:09 PM

@83. Posted by: Neal Mindflood

"How is it that Smokey didn't get Keamy and all of his men?"

Yeah - gotta admit - my blood-lust just does not seem satisfied after finding out that most/all of them actually survived the encounter with Smokey. I was happier when I was under the impression that he had offed them.

Yikes - maybe I need to go talk to someone about these hostile feelings!

Question - who has Smokey killed?

We saw him pummel Echo, but keep in mind that Echo was pretty frail at that point, having survived the hatch implosion and taken as a love slave prisoner by a Dharma Polar Bear.

We assume it was Smokey who snagged the pilot, but we did not actually see this. There were the trademark smokey sounds though. Keep in mind, the pilot was near death himself at this point to.

Who else has there been?

re: smoke detector

Sorry - was late last night, and was typing quick thoughts. I don't actually think the apparitions are Smokey. As someone else mentioned, I think this was a cute nuance put together by the writers. They are aware that many speculate that Smokey and the apparitions are one and the same, and this was their cute way of toying with that mental connection.

As has been mentioned - the alarm itself was not likely activated - the beep was likely a result of a low battery.

As also was mentioned - it is funny and silly that this type of a detector would be in use in such a fancy office. They tend to prefer systems that are hard wired, and much more complicated!

re: Control of Smokey

All I guess that we really know is that Ben invited Smokey over for some action. Does he actually have direct control of him? Unclear, but not likely. You'd think that if Ben had the option, he would have Smokey kill them instead of just injuring - he was pretty pissed after seeing Alex shot dead.

If Smokey can be controlled, it does make you wonder then who wanted both the pilot and Echo offed? I suspect that there is more to the pilot than meets the eye (he was a last second fill in for Lapudis), and we will find this out some time later.

With Echo, I suppose it could be related to the two Others he killed back in the tailsection days. Perhaps the significant others of those others (chuckle) just so happen to be the ones sitting by the smokey controls! ;)

(We know the reality is that Echo's death was rushed - the actor wanted off the show, so the writers were forced to find a good way to do it).

re: Apparitions

I don't think smokey is responsible for them. This is more likely related to whatever Jacob turns out to be, as he is somewhat an apparition as well....

re: The Master Answer

I think it is quite obvious that the supreme mastermind behind it all is....
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...... Cindy's Scarf!

#179. Posted by: shikotee at May 2, 2008 11:36 PM

Great review as always, mac! Brevity is the soul of wit, right? ; )

It was nice to have Charlotte cowed by Jin (at least for a while), & have Danny stand up to her as well (at least momentarily; to me it appears that she's his caretaker as much as an archeologist/anthropologist...& FWIW she's got very poor excavating technique).

Re Claire going off w/Christian: When she awoke, wasn't Christian standing in the edge of the woods on the other side of the clearing holding Aaron? Of course Claire would follow him, to get Aaron back. What would seem dumb is that she didn't try to wake up Sawyer, but I think that her still-unexplained vision, headache, & general wooziness means that her brain circuits aren't operating on all cylinders.

→ 10. shikotee: "My first thought was that it would have something to do with Clementine."

My first thought upon reading your post was wondering what Sawyer would have to do w/our own Clementine. ; )

→ 18. Jin's Flashlight: Sawyer's protectiveness toward Claire:

Agreed that we could be seeing the development of a Sawyer & Claire relationship, especially now that Jack & Kate have moved closer. As I mentioned last week, it's unusual for Sawyer to use a nickname like "sweetheart"—it's just too...nice...for him.

→ 19. Clementine: The dead person seen in the preview:

I agree w/you on who it looked like. Guess we'll have to wait & see if we're right!

—and—

→ 19. Clementine: The Yankees-Sox newspaper story:

When I saw it, I wondered if TPTB were implying some sort of "course correction" & that not only had the O6 time-traveled back to October 2004, but that the Sox were never meant to win the pennant & series that year!

→ 23. boodle: Juliet's conversation w/Kate while Jack was recovering:

My guess is that Juliet started talking to Kate while Jack was still out, but she felt his muscles tense up at some point in the conversation & knew he was awake. As to why he didn't let on that he was awake, it could have been that he was embarrassed that they were talking about him, or he wanted to hear everything they were going to say & thought they'd stop talking if he woke up.

→ 88. pezme:

Thank you, JoePike, lovelost, & chopkins. My sentiments exactly. Mac is the world series champion of LOST blogs!

→ 103. boodle: What Jack's reading to Aaron:

Yes, definitely Alice in Wonderland, & I'm sure not chosen randomly, especially as I don't think Alice is a usual choice of a bedtime book for a boy. "Who in the world am I?" Who is Jack now that he's returned to the real world?

Where will I be when I go back home?
Who will I see when I’m all alone?
And what’ll I do?

Where will I be when I go back home?
Who will I see when I’m all alone?
And you tell me
What am I going to do?
—David Crosby

#180. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 2, 2008 11:55 PM

Maybe Hurley is going crazy because he hasn't found his constant? And then by the time he visits Sun he has?

@135 LostCause: Did Horace Goodspeed die but get better? What is the speed of an unladen swallow?

@149 davidrh: I'm not sure what show you watched but the baby did cry out and Keamy did look at the bushes, just like the preview you describe. Quite honestly, I don't remember the preview from two weeks ago.

#181. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 3, 2008 12:27 AM

→ 172. Posted by: undaunted
Re: Custody of Aaron.
- - - -
Claire and Aaron are Australian nationals and had never set foot in the US. Australian courts would decide Aarons' adoptive fate. They tend to favor return of infant children to home soil and family, and not in favor of felons from foriegn countries. Kate wasn't innocent, she plea bargained (guilty) away from the more severe charges.

#182. Posted by: DocH at May 3, 2008 12:59 AM

Hi all,

Nothing to say about the episode - good, but obviously a setter-upper for the finale.

Useful tip for Firefox users (possibly only those on Linux). I've had trouble scrolling Mac's page recently; scrolling is very jerky and erratic. Just discovered that the problem is the shadow graphic which vertically repeats behind the main section of the blog. Adblock http://www.filmfodder.com/images/bg-shadow.gif and problem is solved.

Random suggestion if the writer's read this page: Can we have a scene where Ben shows Charlotte and Danny a video (a la Jack and the Sox) which shows Boris 'The Buffoon' Johnson winning this week's London Mayoral Election?

#183. Posted by: Danny at May 3, 2008 3:12 AM

In response to #181:

In the preview, the editors had superimposed one of Aaron’s LONG SCREAMS in the sound track. In the show, Aaron did a little gurgle cry that was quickly masked by the sounds of jungle birds and thereby lost to the bad guys ears . . .

That’s the show I watched.

#184. Posted by: davidrh at May 3, 2008 6:41 AM

So, I'm just going through some options here.

1 Smokey is a conscious, 'living' entity with it's own agenda, that inhabits (or actually 'is') the island. It is capable of appearing human. It can even leave the island.
Jacob, Ben a.o. are working together with or for it (whether they know it or not).

2 Smokey is a natural phenomenon on the island that can be used, once you know how to control/subdue it. It is being used by Jacob, Ben, the 4-toed statue dude, 'the Island' itself, whatever. It makes a neat security system. It doesn't do ghost appearances though.

3-99 subtle variations on 1 & 2.

Whatever Smokey is, I am not at all convinced that it's reponsible for the ghost appearances. In Ecko's demise scene, if Jemi (Yemi?) ís actually Smokey, why didn't he just change into Smokey right there? He was gonna kill Ecko anyway. Yet he walked away and came back to kill him later. I'd say Jemi was a manifestation of the puppeteer (Jacob, Ben, other), Smokey was just the weapon to kill with.

#185. Posted by: Robislost at May 3, 2008 7:03 AM

unladenswallow/178: regarding Juliet's voice in the shower...

I'll have to re-watch that part again, only because I could have sworn it was Kate's voice calling Jack's name when he was unconscious in the very beginning of the episode. I thought it was Kate over him and I was a little surprised to see it was Juliet.

re: custody of Aaron

The more I'm reading on theories of how did Kate pull off her role as Aaron's mother, how did the courts allow her to retain custody, etc. etc. is making me wonder a little...but with no real conclusion. What if (somehow and I don't know how) Aaron was not one of the O6 that was rescued...what if the world hasn't acknowledged him as one of the O6...? (Again, not sure how...) Have you noticed that there has been no reference to him outside of the housekeeper, the nanny that we did not see, Kate's mom, Jack and Kate. We haven't seen him out in public, and other than at the end of the episode when he was standing in the room, the only place we have seen him is in his bedroom. And speaking of him showing up downstairs...is there another stairway to go upstairs on that side of the house? He shows up what looks like a hallway, but on the other side of the house...away from the staircase we have seen Jack and Kate use many times. Don't know what all this may mean...I just know that all the scenes and future storyline with Aaron in it is not sitting well with me...it's just strange. Anyone else think so...?

#186. Posted by: boodle at May 3, 2008 7:26 AM

Alais # 180...

I agree about Alice in Wonderland. Not just an odd choice for a boy, but an oddly sophisticated choice for the average 2-3 year old whose tastes usually run more in the direction of:
I will not eat them in a box
I will not eat them with a fox
I do not like them Sam I am
I do not like green eggs & ham.

Unless Aaron is a very very intelligent child.

#187. Posted by: undaunted at May 3, 2008 9:11 AM

@ 175 / Clementine said"At first I thought, maybe Smokey uses the unburied on the island as vessels."

I think you hit close to home with that, except for the "buried" aspect. I'm thinking back to the episode "The Cost of Living", when the Others had a funeral for Colleen.
Dressed in their white "cult" outfits, they set Colleen's body adrift and torched her remains. At the time I thought that was a key point about the smoke monster. After that recap getlost! wrote "If Smokey can take the shape of dead people, I wonder if the Others know this and that is why they burned Colleen's body instead of burying it."

Perhaps that's the case, although if it were, wouldn't the Others have dug up the bodies of Goodwin and Ethan?

#188. Posted by: vacc at May 3, 2008 9:12 AM

Custody of Aaron:
It is nearly impossible for Kate to have legal custody of Aaron.
Kate is merely a stranger to Aaron. Even if Claire gave her custody of her child, it is no different than having a nanny watch over him.
If Claire died, the biological father would have absolute custody rights. If he was unable to take custody of his child, other blood relatives (grandparents, siblings, aunts) would have priority over strangers such as Kate. In Claire's backstory, the father is alive, and she had at least an aunt who was protective of her family members.
In all rational respects, Aaron should have been returned to her relatives in Australia.

Now for television purposes only (and if the show uses this as an explanation I want a writer's credit):
Aaron could not get into the United States without a birth certificate.
Once leaving the island with Jack and Kate, they obtain a birth certificate in Fiji naming Jack and Kate as the parents.
Jack and Kate return to the United States, have their identities confirmed by the TSA, and the "faked" Fiji birth certificate becomes prima facie evidence of who the authorities believe is Aaron's parents. This is publicized in the O6 story, making dying Kate's mother aware that she has a grandson.
Jack and Kate begin their "new" life in Kate's house, but once Kate is arrested, they split because Jack testified that he never knew Kate's secret background on the island. How could he love a murderous woman? So Jack takes temporary sole custody of Aaron (but secretly leaves him in the care of Kate and her housekeeper because he cannot handle the guilt of the lie/responsibility for Claire not being off-island). The separation of Jack-Kate makes Kate look like a single mom (potential sympathy for a jury) which was the strategy from the beginning. Only after time, when Jack become a very successful spinal surgeon, did he make peace with the big "secret" about Aaron to move back in with Kate. But shortly afterward, his being around them boils over the guilt that he has suppressed leading him to the mission of reuniting Aaron with his real mother.

#189. Posted by: welh at May 3, 2008 9:36 AM

→ 173. Posted by: undaunted So when Ben said, "He changed the rules" your hypothesis implies that Ben was NOT referring to Widmore?

I'm really not sure. Ben seemed to think so. THen Widmore sez that it was Ben who allowed his daughter to be killed. My only real point was that Ben knew that she wasn't supposed to die but she did. Then Ben travelled into the future. And when he returned, one of those two events (his daughters death, or his trip) triggered the course correction and sent Smokey into action.... however that works.

#190. Posted by: IdMonster at May 3, 2008 10:14 AM

ealgumby:

With regard to Claire's wish that Kate raise Aaron: It's a pretty obscure situation to research! But that's OK because the one thing I learned sitting in a courtroom day after day is that if you present a solid legal argument for something which is not in opposition to a law, you can win your case. Sometimes there is no legal precedent for a situation and the matter at hand creates a precedent. The whole point of it is to fairly resolve matters.

That being said, this is my argument for why Kate's custody of Aaron is a valid & legal adoption and only needed to be formalized.

A nuncupative will or testament is a verbal declaration by a testator of his will before a competent number of legal witnesses who have no interest in the outcome. Where still valid, they are subject to many restrictions and most states do not accept them.

For instance, in New York (which is just an exaqmple) nuncupative wills have been abolished, EXCEPT those made by a soldier while in actual military service, or by a mariner while at sea.
So there is a precedent with regard to oral Testaments or contracts made in isolated locales under extraordinary situations.

They are generally deathbed testaments made under circumstances in which a written will is impossible.

But it could be argued that this isn't a last will and testament issue at all.

It is an adoption agreement made under extraordinary circumstances in the absence of any civil entity to formalize it and made between the biological mother who subsequently died and the adoptive mother and made in the presence of 4 witnesses.

My thinking is that since Claire was flying to Los Angeles with the specific intent to meet people who wanted to adopt her child so she could decide if she agreed to their adoption of her child, since her child's father had no objections to her putting the child up for adoption, since Claire's whereabouts and the circumstances of her death in childbirth prevented a legal document signed by her...that
The Court would indeed give weight to affidavits of the 4 disinterested witnesses stating that Claire was of sound mind and fully aware of Kate's history when she declared in their presence that she desired, requested and agreed to Kate's adoption of her son. The fact that Sun was present and Kate did not ask Sun to adopt her child adds weight to Claire's choice of Kate as Aaron's adoptive mother. In other words, Claire had a choice, 4 choices actually, and she chose Kate.

DocH: I agree. Australia, not the US, would have jurisdiction over formalizing the adoption because Aaron is an Australian citizen through his mother who was an Australian citizen & who had never set foot in the US.

I concede that CPS would have taken custody of Aaron & placed him in foster care if it could not be satisfied that there was a family friend or relative whom the child knew who could safely care for the child. And Kate would be permitted supervised visitation. But CPS would do that whether or not Aaron was Claire's biological son.

In any case...My point was that there is no reason to play with the timeline because everything that we saw happen could have been accomplished without a time tweak.

Boodle: Kate's attorney tried to convince her to have Aaron be in the courtroom during her trial to put her in a more symathetic light.

Also...If I remember correctly, Kate was NOT aquitted. She did not go to trial. TPTB definitely played very fast & loose with procedure with regard to Kate's Courtroom Adventure.

#191. Posted by: undaunted at May 3, 2008 10:17 AM

→ 175. Posted by: Clementine

"Which leaves us with the theory that Smokey can take an image from a person's memory and bring it to life (or something resembling life.) For some reason, I like the idea that the island is producing the apparitions, and they are not, in the strictest sense, "ghosts."

Didn't Ben once say tell Locke that they have a magic box that can bring you anything you desire?

My older brother's theory is that Lost is similiar to the 1956 movie Forbidden Planet.

The Krell, the former residents of the planet built a machine.

Ostrow (from the United Planets expedition) sneaks in and attempts to use the Krell educator machine. Before he dies from its effects, he gasps out his revelation: the huge machine was designed to let the Krell materialize anything they wanted at a mere thought. "But the Krell forgot one thing! Monsters, John! Monsters from the id!" Though the Krell considered themselves civilized, their subconscious minds were unleashed by the almost limitless power of the Machine. With this information, the Commander deduces that the race was wiped out in a single night of frenzied destruction, as their subconscious minds acted out their darkest urges, fueled by the Machine's power."

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet


Also, I don't recall hearing anyone comment on Faraday's comments in the Staff when he was inquiring about where all of the energy is coming from? What energy is he referring to? Perhaps a Krell like machine?

#192. Posted by: IdMonster at May 3, 2008 10:33 AM

WEHL #189:

Good thinking and a far simpler solution than mine to the legal problem of Aaron's custody.

And again...no need to tweak time. If no one stepped forward to challenge Aaron's parentage per the birth certificate, it would stand. Sun, Hurley and Sayid as witnesses to the birth come in handy for the purpose of obtaining the birth certificate.

So that makes me wonder who the 2 other people were who survived the crash but died later. I figured one of them had to be Claire to explain Aaron's birth and Kate's adoption of him.

#193. Posted by: undaunted at May 3, 2008 10:48 AM

@ everyone
My SAT 2's went well... thanks for asking.

@ Clementine - 175
You forgot Vincent!!! Vincent = Smokey!!!

I sent my theory thing to Vacc. Not sure if he got it... or if he liked it.

@ shikotee - 179
Smokey killed Vincent... and now he is Vincent!!!

#194. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 3, 2008 11:14 AM

@180. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

re: "Alice in Wonderland"

It most certainly is a strange choice to read to a child, though obviously the writers chose this for the continuation of thematic purposes. Beyond the themes from Alice, there is much mystery regarding its creator - Reverend Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, aka Lewis Carol.

Within scholarly circles, for many years it was believed that Lewis Carol was a pedophile, albeit a repressed and celibate one. Most of this is due to his resistance to become a priest despite his training, his diary entries (of which many pages are missing - believed to be censored by family after his death), and of course his extensive photography collection of young naked children. Other scholars have argued that much of this is but a myth.

In any case - when you read between the lines, the two Alice books have some very intense themes, and provide great insight towards puberty within the Victorian age!

@185. Posted by: Robislost

re: "Whatever Smokey is, I am not at all convinced that it's reponsible for the ghost appearances."


Exactamungo! Which then still makes you wonder who wanted Echo to go splat!


@186. Posted by: boodle

re: "What if (somehow and I don't know how) Aaron was not one of the O6 that was rescued..."


It certainly is annoying that they have not dealt with this as of yet. It was understandable when they were still trying to maintain suspense regarding the identities of the O6, but now that the cat is out of the bag, at the least, they could give us the background info.

As I've mentioned before - the writers better have a clever way as to explain how Kate was allowed to keep him, despite being a fugitive, and not the biological mother.

@189. Posted by: welh

re: Aaron explanation

Lol! Nice try! But c'mon - it is as convincing as Kate's trial! Who would have thought that it would be so difficult to maintain suspension of disbelief off of the island, lol?

#195. Posted by: shikotee at May 3, 2008 11:15 AM

for the record,in my view any explanation of why Kate has custody of Aaron is totally flawed.

#196. Posted by: welh at May 3, 2008 12:07 PM

→ 189. Posted by: welh
re: Aaron.
- - - -
Nice theory. But, just when and where was Aaron conceived by Kate/Jack? And just where and when did she deliver Aaron? (I am familiar with the how she got pregnant). She'd have to be really pregnant when she got on the plane or would have to have been on the island a long time.

#197. Posted by: DocH at May 3, 2008 12:31 PM

re: Aaron Adoption
Claire did declare her intentions before leaving Australia to give over her baby to a 'nice couple' in Southern California (LA). I believe Claire even accepted a nice sum of money. Jack and Kate are like, hey hello, we're a nice couple, we've been taking care of the baby for months, and we'll be spending lots of time in SoCal (thanks to Kate).

#198. Posted by: DocH at May 3, 2008 12:39 PM

@DocH:

Exactly, that's why Jack-Kate posing Aaron as their own child is totally flawed.

I don't think the island "time" thing will work to explain it. If the 815ers fell into a earlier time where Locke had not been paralyzed or Rose had not had cancer (their perception of being healed) then Claire would have also gone back in time, i.e. not pregnant.

#199. Posted by: welh at May 3, 2008 12:43 PM

re: Aaron.

Oh, and there is always Jack playing the "I am the boys' uncle" card.

Jack in family court: "His mother, my sister, her dying request was for me to raise the boy... my final words to her... I promise I will... sis." [sniffle]

#200. Posted by: DocH at May 3, 2008 12:48 PM

Wehl: #196...

I agree. None-the-less it's an interesting diversion to try to come up with plausible explanations in spite of the fact that Kate's trial is proof that TPTB will suspend plausibility to get us from point A to point B.

But it's such a glaring error in such a well written show that I keep thinking there has to be something to explain it that I haven't considered yet.

Aaron's adoption and Kate's trial are like the Land Of Nod in the Book of Genesis... in what is pretty much an aside, Cain got himself a wife (how?) & started an entire new branch of the family. ....yeah, ok, but how? Wrong question. The only important question is: Why? Two possible answers: #1. So a bunch of important stuff can happen. #2. the old parental stand by....Because I said so.

#201. Posted by: undaunted at May 3, 2008 1:07 PM

@Bunnylover #127 - That's my girl!

@idmonster #171 - Watch out - you'll always regret that last shot....and yes, I too felt that it wasn't Widmore who changed the rules. I had the feeling it was Jacob.

I really LOVE this new role Sawyer is taking. Can't say it enough. His protectiveness of Claire... I felt as if he made a choice to stay on the island for some reason. Maybe Claire was off missing with her daddy, and sawyer stayed behind because he couldn't leave without finding her. Maybe this is why Charlie's spirit is driving Hurley crazy. He died so that Claire would get on that helicopter, but for some reason they left her. Now Charlie wants them to go back - in an effore to course correct the situation.

#202. Posted by: meg at May 3, 2008 2:27 PM

Claire is a ghost. She died in the explosion. Her "Dad" came to bring her "home" to where the dead people go. That is why Miles is so interested in her..he can sense that she is no longer alive. This is why Aaron ends up with Kate.

#203. Posted by: Colleen at May 3, 2008 3:15 PM

Seriously?!? Kate's ready to marry Jack but she still insists on keeping secrets from Jack? I know Sawyer wouldn't like it if his secret was revealed, but what kind of idiot throws away an engagement over a secret that Jack would help her keep?

The best part of the episode was the first three minutes of Jack in nothing but a towel. It was all down hill from there.

I get that we need the set up, and that this episode explains how we get from plot point A to plot point B (and then on to plot point C), but is it too much for us to ask that the characters not act like idiots? Would Sawyer really go to sleep and leave Miles free to wander around and do whatever? I think he'd more likely tie him to a tree for the night. Why would Claire not be immediately outraged that her father was holding Aaron? That would be her first reaction, followed by confusion of how he got there. I'm just going to take it on faith that the writers came up with something very clever for him to tell her, to get her to ditch Aaron and go off in the jungle with him. And would Juliet or Bernard let Jack remain awake for even a second of the surgery? They might have agreed to it, and then knocked him out anyhow, Juliet can be quite sneaky when she needs to!

The Hurley scene, Papa and the smoke detector, and "you're not even related to him (But I am! Nya nya!)" were all interesting. But watching Jack (the strong hero who saved them from the island) fall apart that fast gave me whiplash. I hope next week is better, for me this was the worst episode since we were back at the bearcages...

#204. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 3, 2008 3:23 PM

@204. by: FenwayBen
"'X' ready to marry 'Y' but 'X' still insists on keeping secrets from 'Y'?"
===
Really?--- You just described every marriage in western society in the last 90 years.

#205. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 3, 2008 3:51 PM

This may be really stupid... but here's what I think about Claire going out into the jungle with Christian and "ditching Aaron".

I don't think she KNEW she was ditching him.

In this case, Christian's apparation would be Smokey. Smokey takes Aaron from Claire, Claire wakes up, see's Christian with Aaron -- but little did she know that Aaron was also smokey.

So when Claire wanders off with Christian aka "dad", she thinks baby Aaron is with them, when actually, he was laying on a leaf... crying (for who knows how long).

Maybe Claire followed Christian to get Aaron back, and Smokey decided to use that against her -- because he had no intention on hurting the real Aaron, but the Smokey Aaron, he can do anything he wants to.

Just a theory.

#206. Posted by: ilovebenajminlinusxx at May 3, 2008 3:55 PM

Ok, i've been sitting idly by and just had a couple ideas about this episode.
First of all, when Kate was getting the 3rd degree about what she was doing and who she was talking to on the phone and she said"i was doing something for HIM" did anyone else think that she was doing stuff for Ben? i did for a second.

and what the heck is with all the PG-13 outfits? man oh man is kate sexy!

And who else can't wait for the showdown between the Donger and Jacob? What do you think he'll hear when he encounters the spirit of the island?

Autooomoooobiiiillleeeee?

#207. Posted by: marls whidmore at May 3, 2008 6:04 PM

@DocH/197
>>>
→ 189. Posted by: welh
re: Aaron.
- - - -
Nice theory. But, just when and where was Aaron conceived by Kate/Jack? And just where and when did she deliver Aaron? (I am familiar with the how she got pregnant). She'd have to be really pregnant when she got on the plane or would have to have been on the island a long time.
>>>

@welh/199
>>>
@DocH:

Exactly, that's why Jack-Kate posing Aaron as their own child is totally flawed.
>>>

@undaunted/201
>>>
But it's such a glaring error in such a well written show that I keep thinking there has to be something to explain it that I haven't considered yet.
>>>


Okay, and now we're back to my original theory ... Kate CAN pretend Aaron is her child, IF the O6 jump ahead in time a few months when leaving the island.

Let me summarize/simplify this (and hoepfully all this recent discussion regarding how Kate could never be given custody of CLAIRE'S child will help):

(1) There is no way Kate could possibly have custody of Aaron, IF he is acknowledged to be Claire's child

(2) Kate has custody of Aaron.

Ergo, the O6 mutually-agreed to LIE ... that Kate gave birth to Aaron.

But how can that be? Impossible, UNLESS the O6 time-traveled ahead several months (circa Aug/Sep 2005).

Realizing they have somehow skipped a few months upon leaving the island, the O6 agree to lie about Aaron's parentage, so Kate will be able to keep him.

The only lie that would make sense, even in that case, is for the supposed "father" to be someone with no surviving relatives ... Sawyer! Hence, the lie would be:

(and I again I want to emphasize, the following is the LIE ... I'm NOT suggesting this is the truth, or what I think happened, but rather what the O6 would have told the rest of the world post-rescue ... okay?):

(1) 815 crashes Sep 2004, with only 8 survivors (Sawyer being one of the two that later "died").

(2) Kate and Sawyer hook up on-island.

(3) Kate gets pregnant in the Oct 2004 timeframe.

(4) Kate gives birth to Aaron on the island in the July timeframe.

(5) About the same time Kate gives birth to Aaron, Sun gets pregnant (by the other one of the two that die, someone other than Jin, who supposedly died in the crash).

(6) The O6 are rescued in the September 2005 timeframe. Aaron is a couple months old, and Sun is in her first trimester.

(7) Kate is granted custody of Aaron, as the mother and only surviving relative (Sawyer one of the two that died, and his parents dead long ago as a result of the Cooper con).


Okay, does this make sense now? The O6 lied about there being "eight" survivors, only because there needed to be now-dead "fathers" for Aaron and Ji Yeon.

We also know Sayid married/buried Nadia in late October 2005. I assume, based upon his notoriety as one of the O6, that Sayid was able to find Nadia post-rescue, and married her rather quickly thereafter. This is also consistent with them being "rescued" around early September.

Now, I know this theory revolves around them being able to time-travel ahead those few months (Jan 2005 to Sep 2005), and some will object to that. However, I hope you see there is really no good alternative, AND we have seen a ton of evidence to suggest time travel IS possible in the Lost universe.

I have seen no canonical evidence to reject this theory, but lots of indirect support for it.

#208. Posted by: ealgumby at May 3, 2008 6:33 PM

@undaunted/191

I had forgotten about the lawyer asking to put him in the court room/or on the stand...can't remember exactly which. I still think the whole Aaron thing is odd. (And I think it's more odd than most everything else with Lost.) Yes, it will probably all be explained to us at some point.

#209. Posted by: boodle at May 3, 2008 6:36 PM

***Mild, Obtuse Spoilers and a Scene from Next Week***

Damon and Carlton on Jimmy Kimmel last night:

http://tinyurl.com/3jruzf

“If you fall out of communion with the island, the island doesn’t like that.”

“The Monster has different rules for different people.”

*************************************

#210. Posted by: Clementine at May 3, 2008 7:08 PM

@ MorBid0/205

I take it for granted that anything I tell a friend, they are going to tell their spouse. If it's something very personal, chances are the spouse couldn't care less, and, if they did, they certainly aren't going to ask me about it or gossip about it.

I understand that there are secrets in every relationship, but I know very few people who would chose keeping someone else's secret over the love of their life once they are caught in a lie.

#211. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 3, 2008 8:51 PM

Thanks Clementine! You know, I totally didn't notice the vanishing body hair. Weird that a guy whould shave his chest but be growing scruff on his face...or maybe that's why Kate needed to buy him a new razor!

#212. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 3, 2008 9:44 PM

"Oh yeah...anyone notice that right before the "check battery/your dad's ghost is in the lobby" smoke detector beep went off, Jack was looking at x-rays of what seemed to be the same tumor on the spine issue as Ben's...? Anything...?" -boodle

To answer your question, nope, nothing there. When Jack was speaking into his little recorder (shortly before the alarm started beeping), he clearly stated that the patient's name was Ryan Laker. As far as my knowledge goes, that is not one of Ben's many aliases, but, hey, you never know...


"Was that Horace Goodspeed saying that he’s been dead for 12 years?" -Clementine

Well, it better be! I don't think I can handle any new characters. But, yeah, I think it was him. I knew he looked familliar. On a related note, I hope LOST stops bringing back so many dead characters. We LIKE to cry when they die because we know they're gone forever, not think, 'Oh, they'll be back in another episode someday'. Sheesh.


"The thing that everybody's seems to forget is that Desmond said to Charlie that he saw Claire get on the helicopter with Aaron and Desmond seems to be right with predicting the future stuff." -Nikki

Way to go, Nikki, I totally forgot that! You've got a good point... I hope that's not an error on the part of the LOST producers. They've been so good about that kind of stuff. It'll probably come back into play in the very last episode when everyone's forgotten about it. Maybe Aaron comes back to the island later and then leaves with Claire? But, in that case, Aaron would be fairly grown up by then, and Des wouldn't recognize him as Baby Aaron, would he? Huh.

#213. Posted by: Kate at May 3, 2008 10:30 PM

@ealgumby - #167

I agree 100% that the O6 left the Island well past early '05. However I don't agree that the O6 claim that 8 survived the initial crash was a means of establishing paternity.

Going back to Eggtown, Jack's exact words on the witness stand were "Only eight of us survived the crash. We landed in the water. I was hurt, pretty badly. In fact, if it weren't for her, I would have never made it to the shore. She took care of me. She took care of all of us. She--she gave us first aid, water, found food, made shelter. She tried to save the other two, but they didn't--"

That leads me to believe the two other survivors died right away, either from their injuries sustained in the crash, or from the ordeal of trying to make it to shore. If their death came any later than that, wouldn't it have been the doctor that tried to save them?

So, if two of the eight died right away, and Aaron had not been born yet, that still leaves ONE PERSON who survived the crash and feasibly could've died anytime prior to the rescue. This person (Jin or otherwise) would be Ji-Yeon's father.

Again, here's where I think ealgumby is right on target - that the "off-island" date of rescue for the O6 was months later than the actual "on-island" date as a result of time being altered when leaving the Island. This would lend support to Kate's maternity of Aaron in that she could now assert that she was very early in her pregnancy when she boarded 815 - and may not have even been aware at the time. Sun's story - that she became pregnant on the Island - is actually true (unless Juliet lied) but her date of conception would have to be tweaked accordingly.

(While on this topic, I'll add that I still believe that Sun publicly claimed that Jin is Ji-Yeon's father. Yes, I know his grave marker shows his death as the date of the crash. But if the grave stone was created shortly after the search was called off and everyone on 815 was declared dead, and Ji-Yeon was born shortly after Sun was resued, it simply may not have been changed yet.)

Back to Aaron being Kate's son.. Rehashing something I've posted before - Jack's blood could've been used to help Kate establish herself as Aaron's biological mother. I'm thinking back to when Jack transfused his own blood in an attempt to save Boone - and his telling Sun at the time that he was a universal donor. Most things on LOST happen for a reason, and that scene could've been a precursor to Jack transfusing Kate to establish her maternity.

Perhaps that is even how Jack learned of his connection with Claire - maybe the powers that helped them leave the Island told Jack in order to get him to cooperate and provide his blood to help support the cover story.

So back to ealgumby's question - Why say 8 survived the crash then? Perhaps to add a measure of realism and drama to the Hero Kate tale? Perhaps to account for Nikki and Paulo, (or any two deceased 815ers) whose bodies were "recovered" from the Island when the O6 were rescued? Again going on the premise that things happen on LOST for a reason, maybe they used the Paulikki diamonds for a bargaining chip as a means to get off the Island??

#214. Posted by: vacc at May 3, 2008 10:33 PM

I don't want to get into the debate about whether Kate is claiming to be Aarons's biological mom or adoptive mom, but I think there is something interesting here.

As we have seen in several flashbacks now, Kate refers to Aaron as "my son" (hence the aforementioned debate) to various people (her mother, her defense lawyer, etc). Which would certainly make sense if she is trying to maintain the Oceanic Six cover story. But when she is arguing with Jack near the end of this episode and she refers to Aaron as "my son" not "Aaron" or "the baby" or whatever it seems a bit odd. Jack clearly knows Aaron is not her son and she knows that Jack knows that....hmmm. Based on his reaction, Jack also thinks it is odd that Kate is using the "my son" line with him. What is going on with Kate?

Another thought: It reminds me quite a bit of Ben and Alex. Alex was never really Ben's daughter biologically or legally. Yet he refers to her throughout as "my daughter" even in his conversation with Charles Widmore in the last episode.

I just thought this was an interesting parallel, considering both Alex and Aaron are the only known characters to literally be born on the island.

#215. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 4, 2008 12:51 AM

***** past tense spoiler *******

Back a season or two, when the finale was code named 'snake in the mailbox' , there was talk of one of the core group being an 'other'. I was thinking Jack, Locke, or maybe Hurly. But unless it was Cindy (of the scarf), it never came to pass. She wasn't core group anyhow.
My new guess ......
***** end spoiler *******
re: MacGyver/Rambo Bernard

If Bernard knows all about surgical instruments, how come he didn't go to get them?

How come Juliet was aware of, and seemed so comfortable and unsurprised of Bernard's surgical assistant abilities?

Bernard, who has laid low, knows Morse code, is a crack shot, has ER knowledge, and who knows what else -- me thinks he may be an 'other'!

#216. Posted by: mtncbn at May 4, 2008 1:03 AM

A couple other observations

In last seasons glimpse of Kate at the 'we have to go back' airport meeting, considerably after this episode, I thought Kate looked PG.
In this episode, the hand on the tummy made me think so too.

#217. Posted by: mtncbn at May 4, 2008 1:13 AM

As mentioned earlier, maybe it wasn't appendicitis, did Juliet and Bernard implant something, after creating appropriate symptom's?

#218. Posted by: mtncbn at May 4, 2008 1:21 AM

@215. Posted by: "old" Christine

re: "my son"

You raise some good points and observations, and a good comparison with Alex and Aaron.

My take would be that she has become quite attached to him, and now that Aaron can talk, how else would she refer to him? "Hey you - Kid that I'm taking care of?"

Remember the observation Kate made to Jack regarding the BS O6 story (he's said it so many times, it almost sounds like he believes it)? I think the same is happening with Kate. After constantly referring to Aaron as her son, it is a force of habit, and it really displays how deeply fond of him she has become.

Keep in mind - Kate is not just some strange person who snagged Aaron. When Claire went into labour on the jungle path, Jack was busy trying to save Boone, and Kate was forced to deliver Aaron. They not only had a bond from his birth, but this has no doubt only strengthened in the lengthy amount of time that she has spent with Aaron since they left the island...

#219. Posted by: shikotee at May 4, 2008 1:29 AM

@216. Posted by: mtncbn

Sorry - Bernard is not an Other, based on my interpretation of the evidence, and upon the advice of my magic eight ball!

#220. Posted by: shikotee at May 4, 2008 1:38 AM

@194. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

"Smokey killed Vincent... and now he is Vincent!!!"

Silly girl - you have it mixed up!

Vincent killed Smokey... and now he is Smokey!!! :)

One last thought...

Some good fan theory tribute in this episode, now that I think about it:

Smoke Alarm = smokey/apparition theory
Crazy Hurley = we're all dead/purgatory theory

Oh how those writers love to play with our emotions!

#221. Posted by: shikotee at May 4, 2008 1:46 AM

I thought Horace Goodspeed (I've been dead for 12 years) could pass for some of the images of Jacob. Anyone else think so?

Also, all that claim inebreation, I call and raise a 12 pack.

#222. Posted by: mtncbn at May 4, 2008 1:49 AM

@222. Posted by: mtncbn

I thought the same about Widmore and Jacob!

#223. Posted by: shikotee at May 4, 2008 1:53 AM

***** preview spoiler *****

Is it a bad sign that 'I've been dead for 12 years' is bleeding from his nose?? Maybe he just got punched.

***** end spoiler ******

#224. Posted by: mtncbn at May 4, 2008 2:05 AM

Geesh! Of course Kate calls Aaron her son whether anyone is listening or not. For crying out loud, she loves him, she's raising him. She is his mother and he is her son regardless of adoption or dna. No mystery there. That's called love.

And while I'm on the subject of "geesh"
I just want to say that if a man gives me grief because I refuse to break a promise of confidentiality that I made to someone else... I don't want that man. When a person compromises their integrity to satisfy their partner's curiosity or quell his suspicions, well..that is the death knell sounding for the relationship.

#225. Posted by: undaunted at May 4, 2008 2:10 AM

Bernard an Other?? Remember a while back when we didn't see those tow for a while, Rose and Bernard, and then one of the producers said there would be an excellent story line coming up with them??? Wouldn't that be a mind-boggling, awesome twist?? Think about it...wow!

Cindy (of the scarf - liked that one) was awesome too, in her time of Otherness, but we have all come to accept that. But, Bernard...

#226. Posted by: meg at May 4, 2008 7:59 AM

@ ealgumby - 208
I like your theory and explination of the timeline, but what about Charlie?

Once again, wouldn't Charlie have to be one of the other two becuase he talked to Penny right before he died. -- Which means that she knows he survived the crash.

Unless they got her to lie with them.

@ Vacc - 214
Good point about the other two dying right away. -- Also -- Good explination.

About the Paulikki diamonds -- Didn't they "sprinkle" them in the grave with their bodies? I don't think they saved them.

@ "old" Christine - 215
Good point.

I personally think Kate is dillusional and psychotic. -- Ben on the other hand, the complete opposite.

It makes sense why he would refer to Alex as "his daughter" because he raised her, her whole life. Aaron is barely even 3 or 4 ish, they aren't as "close" as Alex and Ben were. Ben genuinely really cared about Alex... But Kate, she probably just thinks she does. I don't think that relationship could have developed so quickly. They could be close, but she should deep down know inside that he isn't hers.

I know a lot of people who adopt love their adopted children the same as they would their own, but still... she's psychotic.

@ shikotee - 219
Those are good observations. I was going to say "good point" but I said that like a bagillion other times in the last 5 seconds. But you know what I mean. Definitely possible.

@ meg - 226
Bernard is getting me really curious. Who is he? We know nothing about his past other than somehow he knows Morse Code and he knows a lot about doing surgery, even though he is a dentist. Better question: What is he? (And that question works on so many levels).

#227. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 4, 2008 9:55 AM

We know that Bernard is a dentist.
We know that he is a military veteran.

Do we know if he practiced general dentistry or if he was a specialist? A DDS with a specialty for instance a periodontist would have gone on to a dental residency program and had more "medical" experience than a general dentistry dentist.

If he was a dentist with a specialty in oral surgery I'm not sure, but I think he'd probably have an MD and a DDS.

He is a dentist, he is a military veteran, he is of an age that he might have served in Viet Nam. So whether he practices general or specialized dentistry, it might be that his military occupation was paramedic & his time in Viet Nam is what gave him the experience that makes him comfortable in a makeshift operating room.

The incredible thing about real people in real life is that we really are fascinating! As fascinating as the people on LOST. Our lives are filled with drama. We too often look over at the fat balding guy sitting at the next table in a restaurant and dismiss him as being humdrum. But the fact is: He could have run into a burning building and saved the lives of an entire family, then spent 6 months in a burn hospital and lost his job and reinvented himself and now he is teaching anthropology at the university...and we dismissed him as "nobody special."

#228. Posted by: undaunted at May 4, 2008 10:43 AM

We watched Bernard meet and fall in love with Rose, and then trick her into visiting a faith healer in Australia when he learned she had terminal cancer.

If he was an Other:
1.Why would Ben (as his leader) give him permission to live off island for that extended period of time?
2.Why would Bernard not have taken Rose directly to the island to be healed?

I guess it could all be a set-up by Ben to get Rose to the island, but Bernard seemed very genuine in his quest to have Rose healed by Isaac in Australia. I thought this was another example of faith versus science.

More than likely, either:
1.The writers needed someone to help Juliet with surgery and put Jack under when he resisted. Just as they needed someone to understand Morse code to move the story along last week. They used Bernard’s background as a dentist, and perhaps in the military, to conveniently explain his comfort with medical procedures and his knowledge of Morse code, OR
2.In an upcoming episode, we will see more of Bernard’s background before meeting Rose that is relevant to the story. (Maybe he was a Jack Bauer-like CIA operative!)

****************************************

The Freighter Four are being written as specialists/scientists, not necessarily with the same agenda as Keamy and the mercs. Lapidus was hired by Widmore as the “navigator,” but he definitely seems to have his own agenda. If Daniel, Charlotte and Miles are not specifically looking to capture Ben, is their mission to “capture” the island? Make it visible, or controllable, or usable to Widmore? Daniel’s sympathetic looks and Charlotte’s obnoxious disregard indicates they consider the Losties to be collateral damage. But do Daniel and Charlotte believe the Losties cannot leave the island for practical reasons (because Widmore won’t let them), or scientific or supernatural reasons (due to the nature of the island, because it would somehow disrupt the universe)?

****************************************

I don’t allow myself to get wrapped up in the timeline issues, not only because I find it frustrating, but also because I have faith in the writers to bring it all together at some point. But the newspaper in this episode places the off-island story in August 2007, and the newspaper from which Jack rips the obituary in last season’s finale was dated April 2007. How could pill-popping, crazybeard, “We have to go back” Jack occur in time before Jack/Kate/Aaron happy family Jack? Somehow, I think this is more than a prop issue.

Also more than just a prop: the artwork from Santa Rosa on Kate/Jack’s fridge. Maybe Aaron and Hurley are buddies and occasionally get together to cut and paste construction paper. Or maybe Hurley’s right, and this is all just a dream. Jack’s dream. Who knows?

I think we’re constantly traveling down Alice’s rabbit-hole, and we just don’t understand it yet. I’m content to take the journey and not anticipate the final destination.

****************************************

According to DarkUFO, this is a Dharma shaped mobile on Aaron’s bed. Looks more like a Smokey-detector to me :)

http://tinyurl.com/42vbze

****************************************

FenwayBen/#211: “I understand that there are secrets in every relationship, but I know very few people who would chose keeping someone else's secret over the love of their life once they are caught in a lie.”

Undaunted/#225: “When a person compromises their integrity to satisfy their partner's curiosity or quell his suspicions, well..that is the death knell sounding for the relationship.”

In my experience, both of these viewpoints would indicate a healthy relationship.

Of course, Kate is a fugitive and a professional liar, and Jack is a paranoid control freak, so they were pretty much doomed from the start. Run, Aaron, run!

****************************************

“The monster has different rules for different people.” – Damon

I keep think of Jimmy Kimmel’s comment that Eko was good, so if the Monster took him, it must be bad OR the Monster took Eko to a better place. Damon encouraged him to continue with that last thought. The island has to be about redemption, even if the producers don’t want to label it purgatory. Maybe. Right?

#229. Posted by: Clementine at May 4, 2008 12:25 PM

@clementine / 229 said 'About the Paulikki diamonds -- Didn't they "sprinkle" them in the grave with their bodies? I don't think they saved them.'

Exactly! And THAT was the basis of my attempt to rationalize having 8 initial survivors. Here's one possible scenario:

When all else fails, Jack and Company are presented with an opportunity to buy their way off the Island for a substantial sum of money.

Despite Hurley claim that he's worth 150 million, the captain (or whomever needs to be bribed) demands something right away. Perhaps they already know that Hurley no longer has his money after being declared dead.

Now Miles - having recently spoken with the Paulikki spirits - chimes in with "What about the diamonds?"

Maybe Miles "I want 3.2 Million" Straume is the one that's extorting money, or he could simply trying to save his own skin because he learned that Keamy and his mercenaries have instructions to murder Abaddon's team as well.

Either way, this revelation leads to the gruesome task of digging up Paulikki to recover the diamonds. Their bodies end up being transported off the Island along with the rescued 815ers, making it 8 that survived the initial crash.

Why? Perhaps because it adds drama and realism to the Hero Kate story. I really believe it was to quell media and public outrage over the fact that bodies were not recovered from the wreckage, denying grieving families the opportunity to bury their loved ones. What better way to do that then with the public funerals of Nikki and Paulo - who already have prior experience being buried. Another thing to keep in mind is that both were minor celebrities - Nikki starred in the TV Hit "Exposé" and Paulo was an acclaimed chef, hailed as the "Wolfgang Puck of Brazil".

I thought of this when I rewatched the scene where Sun was going into labor in her flash forward. The TV was showing an episode of Exposé that Nikki appeared in. Perhaps Exposé became an even bigger hit - even in Korea - as a result of Nikki's heightened fame after her body was recovered. (I'm sure the 815 crash didn't hurt sales of DriveShaft CD's either).

#230. Posted by: vacc at May 4, 2008 1:54 PM

@ clementine / 229 said "wouldn't Charlie have to be one of the other two becuase he talked to Penny right before he died"

I thought that at first, but I think we have to assume that Penny was not in a position to comment publicly about 815. Especially after the reveal that Ben Linus intends to kill her, coupled with Widmore's comment that Ben will never find her. Also, Penny wouldn't be able act on her knowledge of Charlie without Desmond's presence on the Island becoming an issue.

#231. Posted by: vacc at May 4, 2008 2:01 PM

First, what makes the O6 think no one else will never make it off the island and reveal their lies. Maybe Kate's comment to Jack at the airport about 'not going back' is because she doesn't want to give up Aaron, which will happen if Claire is saved.

"Bad things will happen if he's not raised by you." Claire can not die. Destroys the whole karma thing.

I think Sawyer is feeling protective of Claire and the baby because his fatherly instincts are starting to surface (i.e. we assume, Kate's errand for his daughter.

You can't complain about Kate not sharing with Jack when Jack didn't tell her about Hurley either. They will forever not tell each other things.

Now, maybe diamonds = $3.2 million. Miles reads spirits, maybe he was sent to read the spirit of the owner of the diamonds - the one Paulo poisoned. That storyline will probably surface with Ben right smack dab in the middle. Just where does Ben get his money?

Great thinking by everyone. Keep the little gray cells working!

Thanks for the use of the room Mac.

#232. Posted by: pebspostal at May 4, 2008 2:53 PM

→ 216. Posted by: mtncbn
If Bernard knows all about surgical instruments, how come he didn't go to get them?
- - - -
Bernard did not know how to get to the medical station/hatch... Sun did. Jin was a better choice (vice Bernard) as body guard for the hike. I question why they sent Charlotte on the hike, other than to further the subplot (speakee Korean, likee Daniel).

***** SPOILERS *****
I liked Cuse & Lindelof on Kimmel the other night. They really helped the Jacob focus. Plus the preview of Ben, John & Hugo hiking past the mass grave site... Hugo asking who 'they' (corpses) are... and Locke saying 'they're the ones we are going to visit'... (priceless).
***** SPOILERS *****

#233. Posted by: DocH at May 4, 2008 2:56 PM

From Jack's comments that Sawyer "chose to stay behind" I got the impression that Sawyer was still on the island. Yet I also thought that in Kate's "mystery" phone conversation she was speaking to Sawyer. Did I misunderstand this?

If she was speaking to Sawyer, how would Sawyer be making phone calls to the US from the island? Also if this is indeed possible in 2007 Lost does this mean Jin (if he's still alive) would be able to contact Sun in Korea?

If she wasn't speaking to Sawyer, who was she speaking to?

#234. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 4, 2008 4:12 PM

@86 - welk
The trial being unbelivably wrong.

@91 - berkyo
Sayid missing scar

When Hurly said everything was too perfect and this didn't seem real.

Maybe "some" of these flashforwards are not "real" and are made up by smokie who is not a stickler for details.

I missed the Hurly comment as WX prempted that part here. And think someone said he said that !


#235. Posted by: SamFin at May 4, 2008 4:37 PM

@ "old" Christine - 234
A few of us think Kate was talking to Cassidy on the phone about Clementine. Sawyer may have asked Kate to do something for him that involves them.

#236. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 4, 2008 5:53 PM

Hi all, just came back from a great future flash. Last thing I remember I was in a bathroom with running water and some crazy guy talking about constants.

@Undaunted
Good prediction last week on the Claire headache and thanks for the reminder re: Sawyer's connection to Aaron from season 1. Seems to me this week more or less confirmed Claire is Aaron's biological mother, but is there any proof that the baby's father is her old boyfriend, Thomas? Maybe Aaron's father will turn out to be Sawyer and he and Claire were keeping it a secret for some reason.

@lovelost (from last week)
Thanks for posting that Jimmy Kimmel interview. Confirmed the writers heard our hatred of Paolikki. So since we apparently have the power to influence the story, um, who do we want offed next?

@Clementine
Thanks for posting that Yankees/Red Sox article. As a former newspaper editor, I'm obsessing over this not in terms of the dates but in terms of the prop for the TV show. It's weird in two ways. First, the text is from a New York Times article on Aug. 31, 2007, but the headline is not the Times', at least what's online now ("History Repeats as Yankees Sweep Red Sox."), nor is it in the Times' headline format. Second, "Suzy Allman for The New York Times" is the photo caption, so my theory on this is that one of the prop folks did an old-fashioned cut-and-paste job to create the prop and in doing so created a punchier headline -– all in an insidious effort to take a jab at Mac and other Sox fans here.

@chopkins, clementine
I still have a funny feeling about Lapidus in that he seems to have his own agenda, separate from Widmore's commandos (and maybe the scientists, too). Maybe he's Ben's Other Man on the Boat, meaning Ben has TWO men on the boat. Another theory is he could be Paik's man on the boat. There's just something that doesn't sit right with me that he'd be working for the guy who staged the fake plane wreckage when he knows it's a fake.

@Cecil_Rose
Thanks for a great House recap (sorry, not Lost-related). No TV in Future Flash land.

#237. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 4, 2008 6:38 PM

I was thinking about Hurley's mental hospital flash-backs and flash-forwards and I remembered that there was speculation a while back about Libby possibly working for Widmore. Do you think maybe the reason we saw here in Hurley's mental hospital flashback was because she was there to get information from Hurley's number-repeating friend Lenny?

If this has already been mentioned I apologize.

#238. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 4, 2008 7:35 PM

@@@@@@@@@

In the previews for the upcoming episode, Kevin Johnson appears... my theory about him being Michael (father of Walt) is probably a little flimsy now that I think about it... their hair is different... so I am going to put to rest my theory that they are one and the same... obviously, that was a pretty farfetched assumption.

(wink, wink)

@@@@@@@@@@@@@

#239. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 4, 2008 9:45 PM

@vacc/#230/231: I can't take credit for the quotes, but I do agree that the diamonds should come into play soon and that Penny won't go public with her knowledge of the island or the other 815 survivors.

@DocH/#233: **Scene from Next Week Spoilers**
My favorite part was Ben's expression when Hurley asked, who did this? and Locke replied, "He did." Hmmm, Locke is such a flip-flopper. When he can't find the cabin, he follows Ben's lead and let's him run the show. But now that Hurley might be able to lead them to Jacob, Locke's back to dissing old Bug-Eyes. I think Jacob, or the island, or Smokey, should just smite Locke upside the head for his fickleness.
****************************************

@Scooby-Dude/#237: Welcome back. If your nose is bleeding, you might want to call Shaggy.

@Mr_Naysayer/#239: I think you have something in your eye.

#240. Posted by: Clementine at May 4, 2008 10:46 PM

I need to make a retraction of a comment I made in Post #12. I didn't see it at the time, but on another site there is a closeup of Jack's appendicitis scar when he steps out of the bed and wraps himself in the towel.

Old eyes. sorry.

#241. Posted by: davidrh at May 4, 2008 11:15 PM

Wow, 241 messages before me and no one mentioned that "thing" in the water. I can't remember exactly when it was but the camera was on Jack's profile following him on the beach with the ocean in the background. Suddenly there was SOMETHING in the ocean. Something white. Is that a floatie thing we all know about already? I wasn't sure.

#242. Posted by: Ronny B at May 5, 2008 2:43 AM

I hope everyone had an enjoyable weekend. I know that we’re supposed to post comments about the latest episode of LOST but I saw, or rather re-watched, something that I had completely forgotten about until coming across it again this past weekend.

It was a movie released in 1999. It’s the story of a mysterious island hidden from the rest of the world. The only way to reach the island is through an electromagnetic storm, time moves differently on the island, sunlight reflects off things differently, a woman with cancer is cured and sustained by the island. A boy is born on the island. People thought to be long dead are alive and well and have not aged a day. Our hero is told to leave the island with the boy because he’s not supposed to be there. The island goes through periodic rumbles accompanied by odd metallic sounds. No – it’s not a pre-series release of LOST – it was a movie called “The Triangle”. A slightly cheesy movie, not quite a “B” flick, but not a mega million dollar Hollywood production either.

Fans have always picked up on the literary clues the writers and creators have dropped into the show, well now it seems that the biggest influence on the writers and creators is a little known movie from 1999 that airs from time to time on the SciFi channel.

#243. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 5, 2008 9:11 AM

@ Mr Grimm: how bizarre! Might need to check that one out. Isn't there some unwritten rule in Hollywood that there are no original ideas ... just recycled old ones? Seems like I've read that somewhere before. Anyway, thnaks.

***** KINDA SPOILERISH ************

The new episode of TV Guide says the following about this week's episode:

"Where's Jacob's super-creepy cabin? Tonight Locke gets closer to finding out. And we gte closer to finding out what makes our man of faith tick."

*********************************

What are everyone's thoughts on the shack locale? Can you only see/find it of you are "special?" Is it only visible to those that seek it? Kinda like finding the Room of Requirement in Harry Potter, I think.

#244. Posted by: GatorGal at May 5, 2008 10:44 AM

RE 128. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Really? Trust him?
Have you ever met him? Does he REALLY exist - In this time time line - not island time.
Is he on anybody's list anyplace?
Has he obviously aged since you saw him last?
Has anyone seen him recently in a dream, boarding a helicopter.
I wonder what Miles would say?
Is his phone number 4 815 1623 Ext. 42

#245. Posted by: berkyo at May 5, 2008 10:54 AM

If that is the real, dead Horace Goodspeed in next ep's preview, and not Smokey or anything, could it mean that we're gonna see some cool ghost Ecko/Charley/Libby/Ana Lucia/etc-flashback scenes?

I like.

#246. Posted by: Robislost at May 5, 2008 10:56 AM

Bernard sure blew up a lot of Others with his sharpshooting if he is one of them.

@232: If Miles walks over the Paulikki graves will he say, "Why did you bury these people alive?"

#247. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 5, 2008 11:36 AM

@ Vacc
That was me, not Clementine. =]

So back to "The Shape of Things to Come"... I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it, but when Ben told the lady at the counter that he was a "preferred guest", she looked scared.

Not sure if that's relevant.

#248. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 5, 2008 11:36 AM

I've decided that since I pretty much have zero comment on this episode (drabber than drab), I'll just make a random wish into blog-tastic reality:

I wish Smokey was Iron Man!!!

That movie is absolutely dope!! Highly recommended. I'd do a hiaku about this but I can't figure out if 'Iron' is one syllable or two? hehehehehe

#249. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 5, 2008 11:38 AM

167. Posted by: ealgumby
Definitely screwed up time travel will ruin the lift off of the O6 because they won't follow the right heading either because you are right, it will be Locke, or they are in too much of of a hurry to know.Take that back, Sayid saw Lapides' note about the heading in the chopper.

→ 181. excellent explanation! He needs a constant! I like that and feel much better about Poor Hurley. Now, who can we get that knew him before and on the island? Libby? Dave? Doesn't look good.

#250. Posted by: berkyo at May 5, 2008 11:54 AM

@249 Posted by: Red...Neck...Man

"I wish Smokey was Iron Man!!!"

C'mon...

It is well known that Smokey is created and controlled by Jacob via the bong he smokes in his sweatlodge/cabin. The cabin moves when he has exhausted the crop within the vacinity....

#251. Posted by: shikotee at May 5, 2008 11:59 AM

→ 198. Posted by: DocH

HEY! Maybe Kate and Jack WERE the nice couple in LA that was going to adopt Aaron. Hmmmm

And regarding Bernard knowing Morse code. I know Morse code. Not so strange. I thought I wanted to be a ham operator 15 years ago. Of course, today I could NOT tell you exactly what the guy from the freighter keyed to the island.
And I would need a paper and pencil.
And a lot of time.

#252. Posted by: berkyo at May 5, 2008 12:26 PM

→ 252. Posted by: berkyo
re: HEY! Maybe Kate and Jack WERE the nice couple in LA that was going to adopt Aaron. Hmmmm
- - - -
Thank you... That's what I was alluding to. Glad someone finally picked that up.
8^)

#253. Posted by: DocH at May 5, 2008 1:24 PM

So I watched this episode and I although I thought it good, I realised for the first time that Lost is a tragedy. Its format reminds me of the Shakespeare's tragedy "Romeo and Juliet" with all the dramatic irony and all that jazz... So why am I watching it I say?

We now know that the oceanic six never make it back to the island. Thats a shame from my point of view 'cos Jack seems to really want to go back.

If we know that then whats the point of watching it now?

It is a tragedy. And where have all the funny bits gone?

And this flash forward business is really starting to grate on me.

Does anyone else agree with me?

#254. Posted by: AC at May 5, 2008 1:28 PM

→ 237. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
Re: Lapidus

I'm still trying to figure him out. He was originally supposed to fly OA815. We don't know why he was replaced by another pilot. And now he shows up flying helicopters for Widmore.

Anyone?

#255. Posted by: lovelost at May 5, 2008 1:42 PM

@254 AC observed:

>So I watched this episode and I although I thought it good, I realised for the first time that Lost is a tragedy. Its format reminds me of the Shakespeare's tragedy "Romeo and Juliet" with all the dramatic irony and all that jazz... So why am I watching it I say?

Shakespeare's tragedies remain watchable and informative to this day. Why not watch, if this is so?


>We now know that the oceanic six never make it back to the island.

We know this how? Only if you accept that the original flash forward is the end of the story, which I've seen no confirmation of. I'm betting on a positive, affirming ultimate resolution to the series, not a dark one. I could be wrong, but that's the way I read the writers/producers.

>If we know that then whats the point of watching it now?

We don't, but even if we did, again, why not? Are you saying King Lear isn't worth watching?

>It is a tragedy. And where have all the funny bits gone?

Seems to me there's been liberal humor mixed in all along - evidence the Risk game in last but one.

>And this flash forward business is really starting to grate on me.

I thought the introduction of flash-forwards was an inspired bit ot writing. Hints have been given that eventually the focus of the show shifts to the future time. Seems a reasonable auctorial choice to me.

>Does anyone else agree with me?

'Fraid not for me, but I understand your point of view while disagreeing with it. Each of us must choose and decide for him/her self.

Namaste, and good luck.

#256. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 5, 2008 1:48 PM

Here's a LOST related question that doesn't have anything to do with this particular episode, but it's been on my mind and I've been meaning to ask it:

My husband keeps telling me that he heard that the series finale of LOST was actually going to be a movie to be released to the big screen. Anyone else hear about that? Is it true??

#257. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 5, 2008 2:31 PM

MAC, how do you know this is AFTER kate's trial... couldn't it be before, and hurley freaks him out?

#258. Posted by: matt at May 5, 2008 2:35 PM

257/notsoeasy "My husband keeps telling me that he heard that the series finale of LOST was actually going to be a movie to be released to the big screen. Anyone else hear about that? Is it true??"

Damon & Carlton have denied this.

#259. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 5, 2008 3:48 PM

I find it interesting that Aaron, who might be the one to help free the Losties, was found (by Sawyer) in the bushes - much like Moses. Let my people go.

Also interesting is that the clump of trees by which he was found was much like the clump that Kate and later Juliet and Kate hid in to escape Smokey.

#260. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 5, 2008 3:52 PM

Ben was getting mad that Jacob kept recruiting off islanders to come work on the island. So he tried to convince the monster to help. So he says to Smokey, "Only you can prevent foreign hires."

[8^)


@ilovebenjaminlinusxx:

This one's evil:

]8^\

#261. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 5, 2008 3:58 PM

what if kate acted like Aaron was hers and sawyers? Sawyer "died" and she gets sole custody. The whole time thing might not work out but the whole time gap and everything

#262. Posted by: ??????? at May 5, 2008 4:07 PM

Apologies if this has already been posted...

Thinking back to the S3 finale, Jack and Kate talk at the end of the episode in a very strange way considering what we've learned. That is, Jack talks about how he's been flying with "that golden pass they gave us". The delivery/authoring of that line makes their interaction there seem like that of 2 old friends that haven't seen each other since they were rescued. Not like 2 people that were rather recently engaged. If I'm not mistaken, the engagement is ~2 years post-crash (so September 2006) and the S3 finale had Jack looking at a newspaper with a 2007 date on it. That would mean that it was not more than a year (likely less) between the engagement and the bearded Jack we saw meeting with Kate at the end of S3. Just thought that was curious/inconsistent.

#263. Posted by: chrisvanb at May 5, 2008 4:13 PM

@Alya'll Katesbabydaddy wonderers

The easiest explanation (in my mind) would be for Kate to say that she was pregnant before she got on the flight, had the baby on the island, and now she's just happy that they're rescued.

After all, she was on the lam (under the radar) for quite a while so no one would really have reason to question it. The Marshal would be the only one that would dispute her claim and he's pushing up coconut trees. People are less likely to question a celebrity's story anyway.

I believe (hope) the writers will eventually address the issue.


(By saying "under the Radar for quite a while," I in no way mean to suggest that the father is a certain company clerk once tied to the 4077th. Just wanted to clear that up.)

#264. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 5, 2008 4:21 PM

You know, I just went back and realized that Mac is getting terribly lazy... the previous reviews used to be twice (if not more) as long, more detailed, and more well-thought out. This used to be a place I went to get clarity on the Lost episodes - instead it is just tons of theories and conjecture from the countless bloggers. I would rather here a complete, concise review from Mac to avoid all these silly comments that are often times irrelevant.

#265. Posted by: boozy at May 5, 2008 4:22 PM

@265 boozy:

INCOMING!

#266. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 5, 2008 4:39 PM

@265/boozy

See Post #94

So are you asking for a refund?

There are other writers on the net that may or may not offer longer, more detailed recaps but they lack so much of what this Cheers-esque blog offers. Sammy mac lines em up and we indulge in the sweet camaraderie - each adding their own flavor.

Most here are the good ol' Norms. Sure we have the know-it-all Cliffs, the stuffy Fraziers, the naive Woodys and the snooty Dianes but that's what makes it family.

You're free to head over to Gary's Olde Towne Tavern if you'd like, but I for one prefer to stay where everyone knows my name.

#267. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 5, 2008 4:42 PM

@214 vacc

I also thought after Kate's trial epi that Paulikki were the 2 of 8 that didn't survive.I still think the diamonds will come into play or else why bury them beneath 2 bodies?

On another note, when Hurley stayed behind with Locke and Ben, Sawyer said something like "if you hurt a curly hair on his head, I'll kill you" Locke said "Fair enough" then when Kate was helping Jack to the surgery tent, he said if some happens, Kate said shut up Jack and he said "Fair enough" may not be anything, but I thought with all the game talk that maybe being "fair" means something??

#268. Posted by: xanadude at May 5, 2008 5:03 PM

→ 264. Posted by: bcre8ve
I in no way mean to suggest that the father is a certain company clerk once tied to the 4077th. Just wanted to clear that up.
- - - -
So Aaron is really "Aaron Maxwell Klinger-Littleton"? I thought his nose was a little large, and his legs & forearms a bit too hairy, even for a toe-head. Does he like to wear Kates' dresses during play time?

#269. Posted by: DocH at May 5, 2008 5:11 PM

@Posted by: bcre8ve/267
"Most here are the good ol' Norms. Sure we have the know-it-all Cliffs, the stuffy Fraziers, the naive Woodys and the snooty Dianes but that's what makes it family."

Good analogy! Hmm, but where does that leave me? Not Norm, not Woody ... damn, I HOPE not Cliffy!

#270. Posted by: ealgumby at May 5, 2008 5:13 PM

I guess that would make me a Carla since I'm a petite brunette Italian girl with a bunch of kids.

#271. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 5, 2008 5:29 PM

→ 264. bcre8ve: (By saying "under the Radar for quite a while," I in no way mean to suggest that the father is a certain company clerk once tied to the 4077th. Just wanted to clear that up.)

Are you sure? Because we might have stumbled across the explanation for the raggedy teddy bear... ; >

→ 265. boozy: "Mac is getting terribly lazy..."

I'm not sure if you remember this, but mac is a mac daddy now & has plenty of things to attend to besides LOST reviews. We're happy to have whatever reviews he can provide!

→ 267. bcre8ve: "Most here are the good ol' Norms. Sure we have the know-it-all Cliffs, the stuffy Fraziers, the naive Woodys and the snooty Dianes but that's what makes it family."

Uh oh...I have the sneaking suspicion I fall into the Diane category...wasn't she an uptight grammar freak? ; )

#272. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 5, 2008 5:33 PM

To those wondering why the reviews are shorter, here's the explanation in handy list form (you've caught me at a bad time, so duck and cover -- I promise to never discuss this again because it is STUNNINGLY DULL) ...

1. I work. Full-time. Not doing this.

2. I have a family and a life.

3. There are many, many other things that require my time and effort (see points 1 and 2 ... and toss in the Red Sox for added measure).

4. There have been many times during the last three years when I've had to seriously consider ending all this (the blog ... that sentence sounds more dire than I intended and I don't feel like editing because, apparently, I'm lazy through and through).

5. I keep this going because I have a firm appreciation for just how special it is when a community forms. I would rather be "lazy" and not offer long reviews but STILL offer a place for all these wonderful people to come together and discuss the show. I chip in to the best of my ability, but let's be clear: I Am Not The Main Event.

6. The Internet is a big place. If you don't like what's offered here, there are many other places offering what you're looking for. These are excellent sites and I visit many myself.

7. This is trite and borderline nasty -- but if you had ANY idea how much effort I've put into this thing, you'd watch your tongue with that lazy business.

And that's that. I'm done talking about this topic.

Please -- let's talk about the show. Let's ENJOY this show. Let's HAVE FUN WITH THIS SHOW.

#273. Posted by: mac at May 5, 2008 5:43 PM

@mac/273

PROPS TO YOU MAC, for setting the situation straight ... even though I was effectively out of a job very recently, I didn't even volunteer to fill in for you in your upcoming absence (and again, props to those who did, and have GREAT faith in vacc!), because of other commitments. IMO, how anyone could complain about your posting is simply beyond me ... I know I do not have the time to do so, and appreciate every word you put to net. Not just for synopsis purposes (available everywhere, so it seems), but for your unique wit and ability to summarize things in not just an intelligible way, but insightful and meaningful way ...

You are the "tee" that the rest of us play "tee-ball" off of ... without you, there would simply be no game. Don't let it get you down, okay?

I for one, am immensely grateful for your contributions here ... smile!

PS: vacc, I hope you have thick skin!

#274. Posted by: ealgumby at May 5, 2008 5:58 PM

@ealgumby: Thanks very much. I really don't comment much on such things because that's not the point of this place, but the ONLY reason I keep all this going in whatever capacity possible so the community can persist. Your comments really touch on that, and I appreciate it immensely.

#275. Posted by: mac at May 5, 2008 6:05 PM

@mac/273
@ealgumby/274

Way to go Mac!! Absolutely no complaints here...I've seen the other Lost blogs out there...pretty bad!!

Now, anyone notice when Christian appears in the waiting area (smoke detector beep), that the trees are blowing in the wind outside the window behind him, but there appears to be something black (looked like cutains) blowing directly above him inside the windows...? I have rewound DVR several times to view, but not sure what I'm seeing. Anyone else notice that...?

#276. Posted by: boodle at May 5, 2008 6:09 PM

@ boozy - 265
Nobody's asking you to come on this blog. Once again, you're not paying Mac to do this. He's doing you a FAVOR. If you don't like it, then you don't have to read it.

He acknowledged the fact that this review wasn't going to be one of his best, but in my opinion, it was awesome considering the amount of time he had to write it.

And anyway, this IS NOT his job. I bet he has a job, and he has a life. So get over yourself and leave Mac alone.

#277. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 5, 2008 6:22 PM

Oh sorry Mac. I just realized you already set things straight.

Anyway -- I completely agree with ealgumby.

Mac -- You're awesome. I also appreciate every word you write and I am greatful for you. I'm glad I found this blog, everything about it is so "warm" and family-like. You really set up a great environment for us posters.

If you got a problem with Mac, you got a problem with us. (And by "us" I mean all of us regulars and the people that appreciate you amd will never insult you, ever).

#278. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 5, 2008 6:29 PM

Mac - You are such a jerk! All those other things should be abandoned, and this should be your top priority. In fact, we need to find some way to directly plug you into a computer, just so that you could be more readily available. I demand that you be ready and willing to amuse me 24/7, especially for those times that I bring my laptop to the washroom! For Shame! ;)


One more thing....


Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me!


@273. Posted by: mac


re: "Please -- let's talk about the show. Let's ENJOY this show. Let's HAVE FUN WITH THIS SHOW."

True be that - but I also love how we have fun with other shows. Such as....

@267. Posted by: bcre8ve

re: "You're free to head over to Gary's Olde Towne Tavern"

Man I hate that place. Those guys are always such jerks!

LoL! Awesome reference - been ages since I've watched Cheers!

re: Back to the words of Boozy

In a strange way Mac, though the words are insulting, it is a weird homage to your talent. People have enjoyed your reviews so much that they simply thirst for more! Many have become addicts to your keystroke, and we all know how people act when they are suffering from withdrawal!

Can someone set up Boozy with a 1-800 #? There must be some sort of help out there?

Keep fighting the good fight Mac, and don't let anyone rain on your parade!

#279. Posted by: shikotee at May 5, 2008 6:41 PM

→ 322. Posted by: Boozy/"The Economist"
"This entire show is based on a time machine, with 2 different realities being formed based on the time traveling that has taken place... once you all realize this you won't be wasting your precious time trying to figure out all of the mind-boggling details and trying to piece them together."

So, what is your grand master scheme, M. Boozy? What is it that you've figured out, that we're all too stupid to see? Come on, explain yourself, and I'll shut up ...

Otherwise, prepare yourself for an ocean of abuse to come pounding upon your self-righteous a$$, as you founder in the rip-tide of ignorant vain-thought? Okay, big guy, what is it? How have YOU out-smarted the rest of the world? I CHALLENGE you ... come on!

I'm waiting ...

#280. Posted by: ealgumby at May 5, 2008 6:43 PM

I've only gotten to 132 but had to post.
I don't think I need a spoiler tag because the guy that said he was dead for 12 years isn't Goodspeed. He's the mean prison guard in the movie Green Mile. I think his name was Percy or something like that. I'm pretty sure that they're not the same person.

#281. Posted by: LostMamacita at May 5, 2008 7:39 PM

re: another other in the core group

I'm going to have to dig out my archives, and rewatch the dynamite ambush. Read the review, to make sure who miffed the shot - Jin might be a mole!? Will watch it to see how many shots he took after missing the dynamite, and if he might have been intentionally missing others.

As I recall, he had a pistol, Ber-nerd and Sayid had rifles. I've tried to set off old dynamite with gunfire, and can attest to the fact that it works best in Hollywood.

#282. Posted by: mtncbn at May 5, 2008 7:56 PM

Reporting back.

Another other theory full of holes. As in Jin plugged two of 'em after flubbing dynamite shot ( his shot may have hit perfect, a pistol just isn't going to set it off).

#283. Posted by: mtncbn at May 5, 2008 8:32 PM

@ Lost Mamacita: the actor might have been in Green Mile but in the world of Lost, he is the guy that originally brought Ben and Roger Linus to the Island. Remember, he and his fiance were racing along in a little red sports car when Roger came running out of the woods with his dying wife (Ben's mom) and Ben? Then, we saw him again when young Ben and his dad first arrived on the island. Check out some of the screen shots...it is the same character, which makes his "I've been dead for 12 years!" comment even more enticing!

#284. Posted by: GatorGal at May 5, 2008 10:46 PM

Hey mac—Don't let the bustards get you down; the rest of your flock sure appreciates what you do!

Although, to paraphrase a line from Gone With the Wind, I don't know nothin' about runnin' no blogs, if there's something I can learn to do to help out, I'd be happy to...

#285. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 5, 2008 11:01 PM

BOOOOZZZZZZY RICARDO!?!?!?

. . . You got sum 'splainin to do!

:-)

#266 - Cecil Rose - Wow, talk about a prophetic utterance! . . .

#286. Posted by: davidrh at May 5, 2008 11:18 PM

re: shootin' dynamite to make it explode.

i don't think it would take much to set off the dyno. remember doc artz. seems like all he had to do was tremble like a preschooler on halloween to set off the dyno he was holding,,, pieces of artz ensued.
~~~
i think the best episodes this year were the two about sayid and ben in flash forward mode. ben and sayid in the desert reminded me of 'hope and crosby' in one of their road movies.

~'we are off on the road to tunisia'~

#287. Posted by: TanziTwo at May 6, 2008 12:14 AM

Mac, as long as the Red Sox are battling in October, you're not allowed to quit. Period. Hate to break it to your boss, wife, and kids, but them's the breaks!

Plus we all (well, 99% of us) really, REALLY, enjoy it here.

Back to Lost. No theories on the disappearing body hair of our version of McDreamy then?

#288. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 6, 2008 1:35 AM

@ 178 --Unladenswallow

Thank God I'm not the only one who mentionned Kate's look at the beginning of "The Shape of Things to Come." I heart validation.

I agree about the voice from inside the shower... I didn't think it would be Jules, after the toy Falcon it was pretty clear whose house this was in my opinion, but they definitely did some vocal voodoo like in "The Two Towers" (not sure if they actually mixed Elizabeth Mitchell's voice together with Evangeline Lilly's, but they certainly made a conscious attempt to disguise Kate's voice until we actually saw her. I would also point out this is the second time they've done that this season, the first being the final scene in "The Economist" before we're shown that Sayid's mystery veterinarian is Ol' Bug-Eyes himself.

#289. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at May 6, 2008 3:04 AM

Cawfee Talk:

Things sometimes start winding down by Tuesday, so today I'll present a topic of utter importance:

What's your favorite (or most hated) character trait, mannerism or accessory?

1. Jack's Breathing
2. Kate's Body
3. Hurley's "Dudes"
4. Sawyer's Nicknames
5. Sayid's Kick-Assness
6. Ben's Bug-Eyes
7. Juliet's Ninja-ness
8. Locke's Explosiveness
9. Bernard's Many Hats
10. Desmond's Desmonitions
11. Michael's Intensity
12. Walt's Taller Ghostness
13. Tom's Friendliness
14. Paulikki's Deadness
15. Cindy's Scarf

Any others?

#290. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 6, 2008 7:19 AM

@Scooby-Dude/290

How about #16. Jin's Amazing Grasp of English?

Favorite: Sawyer's Nicknames
Most Hated: Michael's Intensity

#291. Posted by: boodle at May 6, 2008 7:48 AM

291/292

Sorry for the double post.

#292. Posted by: boodle at May 6, 2008 7:50 AM

I really think Lost ends with the series three flash forward where Jack is a total bearded mess. And I bet it was Ben in the coffin. I think Widmore wins this "game" and eventually kills Ben. I belive this because on that arbituary the date was given as 2007 and thats the latest date we've ever been given on Lost so therefore this is how I've concluded my conclusion.

Thank you Cecil Rose for your quick answers to my moody questions. I guess I'm becoming a tad dispondent about Lost. I feel its a tragedy because theres nothing that jumps at me that gives anybody who deserves to be saved on that island any hope. We have two people fighting for/to claim the island but whos the goodie? I don't want it to end tragically. I guess I'm in a bit of a huff with the show as its not going the way I want. *note to self, snap out of it!

And yes I would watch King Lear again. Ok so I'm feeling a bit more positive now about it now. Thank you for your persevearance Cecil Rose!

...

You know what I think has really gotten me on total down, and I've just realised what it is.. the fact that Jack and Kate get together and then break up. Thats what it is!! ahahaha Wow you are a some psyciatrist Cecil! Thanx! That may sound sarcastic as its very difficult for you to see my expression from where your sitting but believe me this is a genuine thank you.

To Mac - Isn't there some way you can block these inappropriate comments from these innapropriate people? It has nothing to do with Lost and hes just stirring crapness.

Boo.

#293. Posted by: AC at May 6, 2008 8:02 AM

@AC #254:

I've been getting the same feeling - that LOST is like some great Greek Tragedy or a Shakespearian drama. But I love the show for it's intricacies. I think you made one wrong assumption, that they never get back to the island. Darlton have said that Season 4 deals with how they get off the island, Season 5 will deal with them trying to get back to the island, and the final season, season 6, will deal with what happens when they make it back to the island. The ff's we're seeing aren't what happens at the end, that comes later.

#294. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 6, 2008 8:18 AM

→ 295. Posted by: Mister_Grimm

Ok so I see my problem, I probably need to be a bit more aware of what Darlton and the other fellow say. I had no idea they said that...

I hope that they get back to the island and do stuff to make things right!!

#295. Posted by: AC at May 6, 2008 8:35 AM

@275 mac said:

...but the ONLY reason I keep all this going in whatever capacity possible so the community can persist.

And of course the fabulous financial rewards.

#296. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 6, 2008 9:48 AM

@AC: I rarely block anyone or delete comments, and when I do it's only because the comment itself is defamatory or mean spirited. While I take umbrage with Boozy's overall tone, I see no reason to delete the comment. It's an opinion and I respect that *and* it's not profane. I'm a believer in slippery slopes -- once you start censoring one thing, it becomes easier to censor everything. And that doesn't benefit anyone.

@Cecil: Right, I totally forgot to mention the Fodder summer home and the three extra cars ;)

#297. Posted by: mac at May 6, 2008 9:53 AM

→ 290. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

Gotta be Micheal's intensity. I really don't miss that man at all. Everybody else has a required mannerism.

I don't understand Jack's breathing as an irritation. I will pay particular attention this week. Maybe I never noticed it.

Also, Where can I see next week's preview again. I didn't tape last week. I thought the 12 year dead guy looked familiar (and pretty good for 12 years dead) but I remember Goodspeed as wearing glasses. Guess they could have gotten misplaced while he was being dead.....

And - I am very glad I found this site. My family is sooooo tired of me trying to analyze each episode. I DON"T have a life, I guess. Mac, you do an excellent job regardless of the length of the review. Don't pay any attention to what some us say.

#298. Posted by: berkyo at May 6, 2008 9:58 AM

@293 AC

Ref: Mac Blocking inappropriate comments.

WHAT ! then we wouldn't get Cecil Rose saying INCOMING !!

Now that's priceless !

p.s. I just read Mac's review this week for the third time and it just gets better. There's a lot of good stuff I miss at the first reading.

#299. Posted by: SamFin at May 6, 2008 10:06 AM

→ 295. Posted by: Mister_Grimm

"Ok so I see my problem, I probably need to be a bit more aware of what Darlton and the other fellow say. I had no idea they said that..."

This is a problem for me too. Not knowing everything that has been said anywhere. I recently got dsl and up to now, could NOT watch the podcasts. Or any of the online stuff about 815 and the Sri Lanka video.

Is it fair to have info that is relevant not available to everybody? I would think that just watching the show should be enough to try to figure out what is going in. i will be unhappy if things from the online experience are CRUCIAL to the plot. I go to Lostpedia and wonder if I am watching the same show as everybody else. I don't remember a lot of what is printed there.

And what about the whispers? How the heck is a normal viewer supposed to hear them or figure out what they say? And are they important? When I look at the translations I get the feeling that they are important.

#300. Posted by: berkyo at May 6, 2008 10:09 AM

Question: Does anyone think that Smokey is a Djinn? (genie in English). Arabs (Muslims) believe in Djinns as being spirits (some are good some are bad). They can transform themselves into almost anything. They come out at night and "sleep" during the day. It's also a coincidence that Sun's husband is named Jin (is that even a common Korean name? anyone?) It's also a coincidence that Ben keeps showing up in Tunisia and Iraq...both are Arab countries who believe in Djinns.... I've been to Tunisia, beautiful vacation spot, by the way.

Comments please!

#301. Posted by: Skipper at May 6, 2008 10:13 AM

@Skipper/301

I Googled and found one website of most popular Korean boy names...Jin is in the list of 25 most popular. Sun was also on the same (boy names) list.

#302. Posted by: boodle at May 6, 2008 10:24 AM

→ 300. Posted by: berkyo

I totally agree with you! If I watch the show continuously without using the Lost Experience game or Wikipedia or Lostpedia I'm hoping that I'll be able to figure it all out and that I know everyone is in the same boat. This isn't the case! How is the average person i.e me and Berkyo supposed to figure out the whispers just by watching the episodes and they are just as important as everything else. Ah deary me.

#303. Posted by: AC at May 6, 2008 10:32 AM

****warning - silly ideas ahead*****

What if Claire got rid of Aaron because secretly she felt he really did have a turnip head?

What if Aaron's father was Artz? Or even Boozy? Surely she wouldn't want it, and look for every opportunity to dump it off.

What if Kate stole the baby, and is trying to pass it off as hers?

thoughts on this, people??

#304. Posted by: meg at May 6, 2008 10:34 AM

The writers use the Bible as a theme for a lot of the story lines. Why wouldn't they use the Koran too?

So it turns out that Jin is a legitimate Korean name. Maybe they picked it for a reason though.

Koran – Korean
Djinn – Jin

See a pattern?

Here's more on my Djinn theory:

The Djinn are said to be creatures with free will, made from 'smokeless fire' by God, in the same way humans were made of earth. According to the Qur'an, Djinn have free choice, and Iblis used this freedom in front of God by refusing to bow to Adam when God told Iblis to do so. By refusing to obey God’s order he was thrown out of the Paradise and called “Shaitan” (See Shaitan and Satan). In the Qur'an, Djinn are frequently mentioned and Sura 72 of the Qur'an named Al-Jinn is entirely about them. Another Sura (Al-Naas) mentions the Djinn in the last verse. In fact, it is mentioned in the Qur'an that Muhammad was sent as a prophet to both “humanity and the Djinn”.

#305. Posted by: Skipper at May 6, 2008 10:40 AM

@gatorgal

Okay, but he's not Goodspeed. One person said he looked like Goodspeed and then a whole bunch of other posts said it was him without making sure.

It's freaky that the recruiter says he's been dead for 12 years, can't wait to find out how he's still there.

#306. Posted by: LostMamacita at May 6, 2008 11:02 AM

It is my opinion that some people here are a bit too firmly on Mac's ... I mean, come on, one guy makes a hateful remark and everybody jumps in immediately to boo him and praise Mac. I'm sure he can deal with it himself, sheesj.

#307. Posted by: robislost at May 6, 2008 11:14 AM

mac is my constant

I'd even chose him over Ben Linus!!! :)

#308. Posted by: meg at May 6, 2008 11:27 AM

@303 AC commiserated:

>How is the average person i.e me and Berkyo supposed to figure out the whispers just by watching the episodes and they are just as important as everything else. Ah deary me.

I watched without any hint of the huge onlne community for 1 1/2 seasons and enjoyed it just fine. Then I stumbled accross mac and the rest is history. The producers have state that they've tried to make a show that can be enjoyed on many levels, from just viewing to all-absorbed freaks (i.e. US). I think they do pretty well there.

There's a related problem - how can a viewer who misses an episode or two and doesn't have access to web-replay, etc enjoy the show? And hence the numerouis clip shows and rehashes and revisitations of the same issue that distress some fanatics, but keep the relatively casual view in tune.

Namaste, and good luck!

#309. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 6, 2008 12:32 PM

@306 LostMamacita whispered to @GatorGal

>Okay, but he's not Goodspeed. One person said he looked like Goodspeed and then a whole bunch of other posts said it was him without making sure.

It's him. The actor is Doug Hutchison.
and....

*****VERY, VERY SLIGHT SPOILER WARNING*****

He's credited for the upcoming Thursday episode, "Cabin Fever".

#310. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 6, 2008 12:39 PM

@310/Cecil Rose

Correct! Same actor.

To add a little more detail that might be pertinent to next week's epi...

According to Lostpedia (http://tinyurl.com/5qrv2l)...

***** Slight Spoiler *****
"...on the DVD commentary track for "The Man Behind the Curtain" Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse describe Horace and his companion Olivia as factoring significantly in the future "game plan" for Lost."
***** End Slight Spoiler *****

"Horace (Doug Hutchison) was in the Barracks at the time of the Purge; he died while sitting on a bench. Ben discovered his body after coming back from having killed his father and showed his respect by closing Horace's eyes, a respect which Ben didn't pay to any of the other deceased."

I wonder why Ben did this? I remembered that from "The Man Behind the Curtain" and remember thinking at the time that it was odd. It will be interesting to see Ben's reaction when/if he sees Horace.

***** Slight Spoiler *****
When I first saw the trailer for Thursday's show I noticed the blood coming out of Horace's nose and immediately thought he's jumping around in time!
***** End Slight Spoiler *****

I can't wait

#311. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 6, 2008 12:53 PM

@273/mac "There have been many times during the last three years when I've had to seriously consider ending all this (the blog)"

The island would never let you. (Insert mental images of bullets bouncing off of mac's computer)

#312. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 6, 2008 12:55 PM

290/Scooby-Dude "What's your favorite (or most hated) character trait, mannerism or accessory?"

Favorites - Ben's always-cool-and-in-control-edness even while being beaten
Anything Hurley does

Most hated - Early-Shannon's nagging/whining voice & "WAAAALT!!"

#313. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 6, 2008 1:01 PM

@298 preview of 4x11

http://tinyurl*com/58pgwq
it's an .mpg you can download and watch.
There's lots of others, that's the first I came upon.

#314. Posted by: mtncbn at May 6, 2008 1:35 PM

Mac:
Those farg'in bastages!

An abbreviated Mac review is still a damn fine review. You don't have to explain nuthin to nobody; we are grateful that you do this at all.

#315. Posted by: undaunted at May 6, 2008 1:46 PM

Favorite mannerism:
Sawyer's nicknames. There is just something about Sawyer that touches my heart and makes it ache.

Followed closely by anything Hurley.

Least favorite mannerism:
Anything Michael; anything Jack. Get a grip guys!

#316. Posted by: undaunted at May 6, 2008 2:06 PM

To get back to commenting on this week's episode, I just wanted to say that I really think Ben killed Nadia, as a means to get Sayid to join his twisted little revenge plot. That little smirk Ben had on his face after Sayid kills the man whom he THINKS killed Nadia, well, that gave everything away, didn't it? Poor Sayid. Loses the love of his life, and now he's a pawn in Ben's game.

#317. Posted by: Amanda S. at May 6, 2008 3:19 PM

re:→ 317.
While I agree that Ben's smirk after Sayid empties his pistol into assassin Ismael Bakir means something, I don't think Ben contributed to the demise of Nadia. I think the smirk simply meant that he had just successfully recruited Sayid. We saw Ben 'pop' into Tunisia and shortly thereafter we see him watching Sayid on TV as an OA6 celeb that had just lost his wife. Ben would have to have been in-place very early to set that up, though he may have popped in earlier, elsewhere for Nadia?
With the Alex murder in his past, and the need for Sayid and his skills, killing Nadia doesn't fit the eye-for-an-eye mode that Ben seems to be in.
- - - -
Favorite mannerism:
- Earth mother Rose voicing the obvious and getting everyone back in focus.

Least Fave:
- All things Claire.

#318. Posted by: DocH at May 6, 2008 3:52 PM

favorite mannerism:
-desmond when he uses the word "brotha"
-sayid when he goes into pimp-a-licious mode

least favorite:
-all things jack. he really irks me for some reason. ;)

peace&love to all

#319. Posted by: tiffani at May 6, 2008 4:11 PM

@305 skipper : I definitely think Smokey is a Jinn. You can check out what I posted after mac's Man Behind The Curtain review on this blog to see where we have a similar perspective, but it's nice to see the points you've added add strength to my theory. A couple of weeks ago, USA Today selected a handful of reader theories to be critiqued and graded by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse. They gave me a B and a B+ for my Smokey=Jinn theory, and they did not refute it - except for my inferring that perhaps Jacob was one as well.

#320. Posted by: vacc at May 6, 2008 4:39 PM

Did anyone notice that Jack didn't have a scar from his appendectomy? In the apparent flash forward, he gets out of bed, puts on a towel for everyone to see is half-naked body and tada! No scar! Did the producers forget that little detail? I don't think so. I think Hurley is right. The "Oceanic Six" is all a tease. There is more too it than we know.

#321. Posted by: Sherry at May 6, 2008 4:42 PM

Favorite mannerisms:

Juliet and her inscrutable expressions, followed closely by her badass ninja ways. We still need the episode where we see her transformation from weepy mess to asskicker extraordinaire.

All things Tom. I found the scene when they decided to VERY subtly show us that Tom is gay to be absolutely hilarious ("Help yourself to the chow!"). Plus despite all his evil deeds, he's just too damned jovial to hate.

Farraday's mumbling mumbles.

Hurley's hippie van.

Charlie during his "Monster Eats the Pilot" phase.

Patchy's indestructibility.

...Jin's Flashlight (still the funniest scene in LOST history imo)

Least favorite:

Charlotte's baditude. Hands down.

Charlie during his Darth Hoodie phase.

Sun's preferred method of conflict resolution ("SLAP! I'm Rick James, bitch!)

#322. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at May 6, 2008 5:03 PM

@ Scooby-Dude - 290

Favorite(s):
(1) 6. Ben's Bug-Eyes
(2) 4. Sawyer's Nicknames
(3) 15. Cindy's Scarf

And to add: 17. Ben's death stick!
and 18. Arzt exploding!

Most hated:
(this one's obvious)
1. JACK'S BREATHING!!!

@ Mister_Grimm - 294
Let's hope it doesn't have a happy ending. =]

@ Mac - 297
Also probably because then it will set back the number of comments by one, and everyone will be confused because they write the comment number when they reply. (Unless I'm totally wrong and that doesn't happen).

Anyway, boozy was quite boozy because he was very obnoxious and rude.

... let's hope we scared him away. =D (notice I put my "evil" smiley) *cough*

bcre8ve - Mine's so much evilER. =D!!

@ Skipper - 301
You haven't been reading USA Today!
Vacc beat you to it, and the Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof graded him!

@ meg - 304
"What if Claire got rid of Aaron because secretly she felt he really did have a turnip head?

What if Aaron's father was Artz? Or even Boozy? Surely she wouldn't want it, and look for every opportunity to dump it off."

Excellent thoughts. Pure GENIUS.

@ AC - 303
Simple explination... They just don't get it.

My friend thinks she knows a lot about LOST, and I actually just had an argument with her and we established that LOST just doesn't mean as much to her as it does to me. I told her that she "doesn't count" because I said that everyone who actually CARES about the show analyzes it and does the "extra work"... People that don't, just watch it to watch it. They still think it's good, but they don't realize that they actually do not get it.

People like us get the "true essence" of it, and appreciate it more than they do.

Then she told me she watched something on youtube that pointed out the "details" and she told me a few of them like Jack's tattoo, the Dharma Stations... Alvar Hanso... etc. I was like, "yo, I probably know 4815162342x more than that dude does about LOST."

We actually got into a big argument about this, if I talk about it more it'll just seem stupid... but yeah. -- Made me quite fustrated. -- And I don't get fustrated easy. (Most of the time it has to do with what other people say about LOST.)

#323. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 6, 2008 6:43 PM

What if Claire got rid of Aaron because secretly she felt he really did have a turnip head? What if Aaron's father was Artz? Or even Boozy? What if Kate stole the baby, and is trying to pass it off as hers? thoughts on this, people??
→ 304. Posted by: meg

What ARE you drinking, girl??!!
Whatever it is, I want some.

#324. Posted by: lovelost at May 6, 2008 6:46 PM

RE: #321

Shaaar-a-reeeeeeee. Sherry-baaa-ya-ya-beeeeeee....!

You’re about 47 postings late, sweetheart. Google a site called “Lost-and-gone-forever” and in the third or 4th picture, you will see Jack’s scar . . . and a bit of flab.
Seems that off-island life makes one a little less finicky about one’s physical firmness!

O wait, Kate’s in the shower. “Firmness” is probably not a problem.

#325. Posted by: davidrh at May 6, 2008 11:09 PM

Long time listener, first time caller.
Mac you are amazing. Thank you for the time & energy you put into your recaps.
OK, now down to business.
I just went back & re watched the pilot episode (when Kate stitched up Jack's back)as well as Stranger in a strange land.(Jack getting the tattoo in Phuket) Why? You are no doubt asking. Well, I'll tell you why. When Jack was making coffee there was a tattoo on his back that I had not noticed before. But after re watching & pausing. I am sure the tattoo on his back was the initials R.G. (with a possible Harp in the middle of it)and I don't think Jack is a Robert Goulet Fan.
I was just surprised no one mentioned it.
Maybe I'm crazy.

#326. Posted by: JMC at May 6, 2008 11:11 PM

@320 Vacc

Ok Vacc, I read your post and article about the Djinn theory and I'm impressed. I totally agree with you that Djinns play an important role in the story. My mother is a superstitious Tunisian woman, so I grew up hearing all sorts of stories about Djinns. There are 2 things I want to add to the evidence supporting the Djinn theory.

1. It is possible to summon a Djinn by lighting a certain type of insence, or chanting various chants. Remember Locke and his sauna hut thing?

2. Djinns typically come out at night and sleep during the day. But they certainly can be seen during the day if they choose to expose themselves. We've seen Smokey during the day (i.e. Eko).

Tunisia was the site for filming the English Patient and Star Wars. Does that mean anything to anyone?

#327. Posted by: Skipper at May 6, 2008 11:19 PM

Hi all, first time poster long (long) time lurker…
Hope I contribute smthin every now and then..

@301(Skipper) and Vacc

In Islamic theology:
The word ‘Jinni’ literally means something hidden or veiled from sight. They are a species of invisible, conscious beings charged with divine obligations. They were created before Adam and Eve, and were responsible for cultivating and improving the world. Although God later superseded them with us, He did not exempt them from religious obligation.

Like angels, the Jinni are extremely fast and are not bound by the time and space constraints within which we normally move. However, since the spirit is active and faster than the jinn, a person who lives at the level of the spirits life, and who can transcend what we know as the limits of matter and the confines of time and space, can be quicker and more active than them.

Now a few verses from the Surah(72) Skipper mentioned:

72:10 – ‘We (being prevented from over-hearing) did not know whether evil is intended for those who live on the earth, or their Lord wills for them right guidance and good’

72:26-28 – ‘(He alone is) the Knower of the Unseen (what lies beyond human sense-perception), and He does not disclose His Unseen to anyone,
Except to a messenger whom He has chosen (and is well-pleased with – He informs him of the Unseen as much as He wills); and He dispatches a watchful guard before him (between him and his audience), and a watchful guard behind him (between him and the origin of revelation),
In order that He may establish that hey (the Messenger) have, for certain, conveyed the messages of their Lord. He encompasses all that they (of the revelation), and He has recorded everything one by one.’

I’m of Arabic origin and Islamic upbringing so I felt I could contribute to your idea a little, my brother and I were often told stories of them when we were young. I leave it to you to interpret these verses as you please. I found them interesting and fitting into your theory (while I don’t really agree with it myself – having changed my Islamic teachings for atheism and scientific understanding, which ties into my view of what Lost is philosophically about, but that’s for another post and I don’t want to ramble...)

Oh, mac, ur great. As are the rest of u guys who contribute ur thoughts day in- day out.

#328. Posted by: Apollo at May 7, 2008 12:12 AM

I just had a thought, and wanted to ask a question about it. It may sound stupid and this may have been discussed before, but be patient with me...I'm just now getting all this stuff worked out in my mind.

For those of you that believe that there are certain places on earth that one can enter a "wormhole" and transport or time-travel and believe that is what 815 did, do you still believe that our Losties are on some island in the South Pacific? Or because of a wormhole of some sort, they were actually transported somewhere else completely? Perhaps in a different time?

#329. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 7, 2008 9:01 AM

The above comments about the Millenium Falcon got me to thinking...

The Falcon is (obviously) from Star Wars, and the over-riding and recurring themes from SW are all about good vs. evil, dark vs. light, and the Force. Let's just agree not to discuss Jar-Jar and we'll get along just fine.

Yeah yeah, George Lucas didn't invent those themes...in fact he makes no bones about them being ancient mythology spanning numerous ages and cultures.

So of all the toys in all the world (with apologies to Casablanca), why a Millenium Falcon on the floor? It could just as easily have been a stuffed animal or a bunch of Legos or Tinker Toys.

In The Magic of Myth, the author talks about the young adventurer called to action (Luke vs. Walt?), the damsel in distress (Leia vs. Kate?), the pirate figure (Han vs. Sawyer?), the fatherly wizard (Obi-wan/Ben vs Ben? Christian?), the comic relief (Droids vs. Hurley?), the relic (light-saber vs. Kate's plane? Ben's beat-down stick?), the supernatural (The Force vs. Smoky? The island?), and the transport (MF vs. Ben's submarine?).

Nothing really new here...just a couple of casual observations as we run out of things to talk about...

#330. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 7, 2008 9:11 AM

I must apologize to gatorgal and everyone else. I had Goodspeed and Goodwin mixed up. I thought everyone was talking about Goodwin when they were talking about Goodspeed.

My only excuse is that I spent all day Sat with my sons' band at an amusement park and then all day Sun with my daughter's youth group hiking.

I promise never to post when I'm too tired to even remember my own name much less anyone else's. Especially if they both start with Good. :)

#331. Posted by: LostMamacita at May 7, 2008 9:31 AM

@331 Lostmanacita

No problem you will blend in with the rest of us !

Ok got this figured out.

Laffo is BI-Polar and his evil side was unleased on us and he attacked Mac.

He was then repulsed by "incoming" smartbombs. And will never be heard from again. That's my theory !

Oh! ILovebinxxx

Vincent can't be a major played unless he has daddy issues.

#332. Posted by: SamFin at May 7, 2008 10:08 AM

"Or because of a wormhole of some sort, they were actually transported somewhere else completely? Perhaps in a different time?"

Remember the radio that Sayid and Hurley were listening to on the beach in the first season? I think it was Swing music. 1940's?

#333. Posted by: berkyo at May 7, 2008 10:14 AM

And thinking about the Millennium Falcon. How many people boy one for a three year old in this day and age?

It is practically an antique toy, Jack and Kate don't strike me as sci fi fans and it was probably made in China and full of lead paint and has sharp edges. ......And mine has little people that go inside and can be swallowed..

#334. Posted by: berkyo at May 7, 2008 10:19 AM

-334 berkyo
"And thinking about the Millennium Falcon. How many people (buy) one for a three year old in this day and age?"

Us parents who lived and loved Star Wars when we were kids and still think the toys are cool and want our kids to play with them just like we did! Plus it gives us a chance to play with them again too...

#335. Posted by: JoePike at May 7, 2008 10:31 AM

Yo Mac (not to beat [Kate's] dead horse or anything), but I feel your pain bruthuh. I used to read every single word of every post posted here...but lately have had trouble keeping up and find myself skimming posts and fully reading only certain people's posts, etc... Work, family, other commitments make it almost impossible to devote time to this like I used to or want to.

You've created a great community here, and a unique one in the fact that there are very few hate or vicious posts, and lots and lots of intelligent, insightful, creative posters. If you ever did decide to hang it up so to speak, this community would still survive and communicate with each other until the end of the series.

HOWEVER, you are the constant everyone who comes to this blog needs. Your reviews are the catalysts to our creativity...and short or not, they're always entertaining.

You've made it clear you won't be commenting on this crap anymore, but I'm glad you spoke your piece one last time. 99% of us are here not just because we need to talk about Lost (there are plenty of other sites to do that) but because we enjoy your reviews and respect the quality of the posters here and the atmosphere you've created. So don't let a few moron-commenters get you down or change the way you do things.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now.

Here's something to chew on:

Anyone think Vincent could be Smokey?
;o)

#336. Posted by: JoePike at May 7, 2008 10:48 AM

re: Millennium Falcon

I believe it has been mentioned that the writers are HUGE HUGE Star Wars fans.

It was the adults who bought/acquired the toy for Aaron - why wouldn't they get something that they could relate to - ie a toy that they themselves may have played with back in their youth.

And who's kidding who - Lucas is a merchandising whore! The strength of his empire is a direct result of him owning the rights to all things Star Wars. Do you have any idea how many different versions of the Millennium Falcon have been produced and sold as toys since Star Wars came out?

I'd be easily willing to bet that the Millennium Falcon was a favorite toy of some of the writers (as it was mine), and this is why it was included...

#337. Posted by: shikotee at May 7, 2008 10:51 AM

This man is a member of the rich club "m i l l i o n a i r e l o v e r . c o m" where the rich & celebrity have romance!

#338. Posted by: lisabeller at May 7, 2008 11:45 AM

@330 Ransomjackson
@337 Shikotee
@327 Skipper (me!)

> The Falcon is (obviously) from Star Wars, and the over-riding and recurring themes from SW are all about good vs. evil, dark vs. light, and the Force. Let's just agree not to discuss Jar-Jar and we'll get along just fine.


>Tunisia was the site for filming the English Patient and Star Wars. Does that mean anything to anyone?

Now I've got the connection. Star Wars was filmed in Tunisia and the polar bear (and Charlotte) appear in Tunisia as well as Ben. Now, someone take it from here and solve the puzzle.

#339. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2008 11:46 AM

Thanks davidrh for clearing up the issue of Jack's scar for me and for referencing that other website. Some great info.

#340. Posted by: Sherry at May 7, 2008 12:26 PM

So many great postings regarding the Djinn (Jinn) theory this week. Glad to see this idea getting the attention it merits (at least until it gets refuted). Even though I posted my thoughts on this early in Season three, I'm happy that there are so many others who have also reached this conclusion on their own - on this blog as well as other LOST forums.

@145/BELost re: shape shifting attributes of Djinn - You can refer to my post in this blog after the review of Season 3's "The man behind the curtain", which is an updated version of what I posted after the episode "I Do".

@147/Houda said "Smokey = DJINN (not Jin)" I think we are all using JINN and DJINN synonymously, although a few have, at a glance, assumed that JINN was referring to Sun's husband, Jin.

@305/Skipper noted that "Koran - Korean, and Djinn - Jin" could be a connection. However, Carlton Cuse already refuted this in his response to my theory. He said : "Does it mean we named Jin as an allusion to the Jinns as referred to in the Quran? The answer is no."

@327/Skipper and @328/Apollo : Wow! I think it's awesome that you both shared having been told stories of Djinn in your childhood. I really wish I knew someone with an Arabic or Islamic connection that watches the show - because I'd be curious if they would've naturally formed the same connection. Thanks for the excellent additional comments, which lend even more support to the Jinn explanation.

#341. Posted by: vacc at May 7, 2008 1:11 PM

I took the (artistic) liberty of compiling a few more SW/Lost similarities...

Star Wars Ep 4 - A New Hope - Luke fulfills his "density" (Note - purposely mis-spelled in honor of George McFly)
Lost Season 1 - Plane crashes, Aaron et al arrive on the island

SW Ep 5 - Empire Strikes Back (Emperor returns, and boy is he pissed - those Death Star are expensive!)
Lost Season 2 - The Others arise, opposing sides develop

SW Ep 6 - Return of the Jedi (Balance returns to the galaxy far far away)
Lost Season 3 - A war between the Others and the survivors comes to a head

SW Ep 1 - The Phantom Menace (Luke's daddy-to-be has issues)
Lost Season 4 - Traitors in the mist, survivors rescued?

SW Ep 2 - Attack of the Clones (Army of automatons pressed into service)
Lost Season 5 - TBD / Widmore/Linus factions battle for supremacy?

SW Ep 3 - Revenge of the Sith (Jedi all but wiped out, Darth Vader gets a cape)
Lost Season 6 - TBD / Saga concludes, Victor Lifts a Leg on Smoky?

It's possible I may be a bit of a geek.

#342. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 7, 2008 1:20 PM

re: 318, DocH:
Your "eye for an eye" theory is a good one, except that Ben killed those two men in the Tunisian desert without blinking an eye. That doesn't fit your theory that he's only out to avenge Alex's death. I believe he would do anything to accomplish his twisted goals, whether that means killing innocent strangers, killing Nadia, asking Michael (Kevin) to blow up a boat full of people, etc. etc. He's not above murdering innocents.

#343. Posted by: Amanda S. at May 7, 2008 1:27 PM

Here's even MORE evidence supporting the Jinn theory.

I'll start by including this small excerpt from my Season Three posting (TMBTCurtain,#448), which was based on my research about Jinn. Then I'll show how this may be very relevant to something we've seen this season :

From my prior post:
- If a Jinn takes on shape and is observed, it is confined for as long as the eye continues to look at it. Having no place to disappear, it manifests a form, then makes the person believe that the form has left in a particular direction. When the person's eyes follow the form, the Jinn leaves its confinement and vanishes. As it disappears, the form vanishes from the sight of the one who is following it with his eye.
------------

This may be relevant to the scene from The Other Woman, where Juliet meets Harper in the jungle. I always believed that Juliet was actually speaking to a manifestation of the smoke monster. Before getting into the djinn aspect of that, let me first establish my basis for Harper being Smokey:

First off, Ben was still under Locke's house arrest at the time of the encounter. Even though it's conceivable he somehow contacted Harper, it's less likely than if this had happened after Locke granted Ben more freedom later in the episode.
Second, it doesn't make sense that Ben would send Harper to seek out Juliet for this mission instead of simply having Harper do it herself. After all, Juliet had just betrayed Ben by warning Jack of the impending kidnap of the pregnant women. And Harper seems like the type who would even enjoy the job.
Third is the fact that Ben would not only need to know that Faraday and Charlotte were on their way to the Tempest, but also know where Juliet would happen to be in the middle of the jungle at the time this event was unfolding. Again, not impossible based on what we've seen in LOST so far, but still very unlikely.
A much more likely explanation is that The Island wanted to thwart whatever Faraday and Charlotte planned to do at the Tempest. Since the Smoke Monster is supposedly the Island Security System, it attempted to manipulate the nearby Juliet to aid it's cause.
CONCLUSION: Smokey=Harper

Now to the JINN:
Even if it's true that Juliet was seeing the monster and not Harper, that in and of itself does not mean Smokey is a jinn. But when you apply the excerpt from my prior posting about Jinn to this scene, it adds fuel to the Jinn debate.

My first observation from the scene was that the whispers immediately preceded the encounter. This made Juliet turn in the direction of the whispers for a moment. When she turned back, Harper was simply standing there - with no prior signs or sounds of her approaching. It was as if she materialized at that very moment.
Based on the above excerpt from my post, the Jinn (in the form of Harper) is now confined for as long as Juliet continues to look at her. This also makes Harper visible to Jack when he arrives on the scene.
At the end of the encounter, the whispers return, causing both Jack and Juliet to turn towards the whispers (conveniently coming from direction opposite from where Harper stood). When they turn back, Harper had already vanished - once again without a sound or rustle of leaves or any trace of her departure.
CONCLUSION: Harper=Jinn

Finally we apply the Transitive Property of Equality: (if a = b and b = c, then a = c) to this scenario. If Smokey = Harper and Harper = Jinn then Smokey = Jinn.

See, Jinn Theory is now a mathematical certainty.

#344. Posted by: vacc at May 7, 2008 1:36 PM

@344 Vacc

I mentioned above that djinns can be summoned by certain incense or chants. Could be whispers be "chants"? or spells that help the djinn show it's human (or animal) form?

Vacc, I think you're right about Harper being a Djinn. I think that a lot of the "Others" are Djinns. Or maybe they are human and several Djinns that live on the island take over their body from time to time (it is possible for a Djinn to do that). Ben could be using the Djinns to help him travel (they have the power to do that too).

hope I didn't repeat too much of anything that has already been said. I can't remember what I've read and what I came up with on my own... it's all a blur at this point!

LOVE this show and no one else I know watches it to the extent that I do. It's hard to find someone to talk to about it, so I'm really glad I found this board, thanks Mac:)

#345. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2008 2:00 PM

@342. Posted by: ransomjackson

Rumour has it that before Tunisia, flashforward Ben was in the Arctic (hence why he had the winter jacket). He had been captured by a Dharma Polar Bear, and was hung upside down within the creature's lair.

As he regains consciousness, he sees that his "mega-beat-baton" has fallen out of his pocket, and that it is just slightly out of reach. The bear is further in the cave, eating what appears to be Vincent. This is obviously a light snack, and Ben realizes that he will soon be the main entree.

Ben desperately stretches his hand to reach his "mega-beat-baton", but it is just too far away. He calms himself down, closes his eyes, stretches his hand, and focuses his mind on the "mega-beat-baton".

The Vincent snack is down to the last bone....

Ben concentrates.....

The "mega-beat-baton" slowly starts to quiver.....

The Dharma bear finishes his Vincent-snack, and makes his way towards the main course....

But just as he approaches, the "mega-beat-baton" flies into Ben's hand, he extends it, and frees his legs from icy captivity.

As Ben falls down, the Dharma Bear swipes at him and wounds Bens arm slightly. Ben quickly gains his balance, lunges at the Dharma Bear, and gives him the beating of a life time.

The bear, fatally wounded, slams into the cave wall. A strange whispering sound and humming is heard, and the bear vanishes before Ben's eyes. A second later, Ben feels a strange sensation, and the cave flashes before his eyes. Next thing he knows, he is lying on the ground in what appears to be a desert.

Naturally, the fatally wounded Dharma bear is also transported to a desert in Tunisia, where he dies quickly, and is buried and forgotten by a sandstorm. Only many years later would his remains be discovered...

The only thing I'm not certain about is if we will be shown this in S5 or S6 ;)

#346. Posted by: shikotee at May 7, 2008 2:09 PM

@VACC

the more i read your theory the more i like it and i cant wait to find out how close your theory is when"EVERYTHING" is finally explained. or so we hope it will be. :)

peace&love to all

#347. Posted by: tiffani at May 7, 2008 2:27 PM

Theory:

Fact: Widmore was working together with the Hanso foundation.
Whether it was Widmore or Hanso who first found the Island, is not clear. I'd say it was probably Hanso.

Widmore knows a lot about and might well have been to the Island. My guess is he was on the Island for quite some time. He got to know Ben. Ben was working together with Goodspeed at the time. I think both of them came into contact with the Island's special, time/space-related powers.

Later, while Charles wasn't on the Island, Ben finally went Saddam on his Dharma/Widmore friends, in order to be crowned ruler of the Others. There was a 'war' between the Others and Widmore. Widmore lost. The Island warped to another location, or something. In any case, Widmore couldn't find it anymore. But he tried hard and managed to capture, interrogate and kill an Other woman, while she was (on vacation?) in the real world. Maybe that little girl that was Ben's friend as a kid. Ben kills Widmore's wife or similar, then contacts Widmore and tells him that if he wanted to, he could wipe out all of Widmore's family/friends right now. (He can't kill Charles, as he is Ben's constant). Ben has the Island, so he has the upperhand. They agree to some rules about not killing eachother's loved ones, only 'employees'.

Something like that :-D

#348. Posted by: robislost at May 7, 2008 2:29 PM

I am wondering why Smokey didn’t kill all the boat commandos (especially) the one that killed Ben’s daughter? Did Ben not want the commandoes dead for a reason 1) To only scare the commandos 2) So the others in Ben’s camp would think they were dead?????

#349. Posted by: Bill at May 7, 2008 3:11 PM

@344 Vacc

Just thought of two more things to support the Djinn theory:

1. Hieroglyphics. Egypt is two countries East of Tunisia. Egyptians are Arab and most of them practice Islam (Coptic and Christian are the minority religions in Egypt). The Sahara Desert covers part of Egypt too. Maybe the early inhabitants of the Island were Egyptian Muslims who created all of the hieroglyphics that we keep seeing and released the Djinns on the island. Richard sure looks Arab to me. Or maybe the Hieroglyphics are the key to containing/releasing the Djinns. Can anyone read what the Hieroglyphics in Ben’s secret, secret, secret room say?


2. Widmore says to Ben, "I know who you are boy, What you are.."
The “what you ARE” means that Widmore knows that Ben is a Djinn (or a Djinn has temporarily taken over Ben’s human body).

#350. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2008 3:11 PM

@349:

Jimmy Kimmel asked Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse. They said it's because Smokey has different rules for different people...

You can find the bit on Youtube. There's also a clip of Locke, Ben and Hugo at the Dharma gravesite.

#351. Posted by: Robislost at May 7, 2008 4:40 PM

@323/ilovebenjaminlinusxx "Mine's so much evilER. =D"

Nothing evil about a happy bunny on no-doze. ]8^\

#352. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 7, 2008 5:36 PM

@336/JoePike "Anyone think Vincent could be Smokey?"

I watched one of the episodes pretty closely and I'm pretty sure that the campfire is smokey.

#353. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 7, 2008 5:41 PM

→ anything written by VACC

You just keep getting better and better. I loved your original Jinn theory and am awed by your ability to expand/expound on it, making more sense each time. (Thanks also to Skipper and Apollo.)

→ 336 Joe Pike Anyone think Vincent could be Smokey?

Your ability to grasp the obvious is amazing. ;-)

→ 346. Posted by: shikotee Naturally, the fatally wounded Arctic Dharma bear is also transported to a desert in Tunisia

It must have been a bipolar bear.

#354. Posted by: lovelost at May 7, 2008 5:41 PM

re:→ 343. Posted by: Amanda
Your "eye for an eye" theory is a good one, except that Ben killed those two men in the Tunisian desert without blinking an eye. That doesn't fit your theory that he's only out to avenge Alex's death.
- - - -
We only saw Ben 'kill' one of the two horsemen. He wrestled with the one that dismounted, firing at the one that stayed on his horse, then thumped the one he wrestled with. As far as his evil plan, I don't think the two jockeys were expected. A Tunisia "drive-by" shooting, maybe. A horse-jacking, perhaps. Ben simple showed he was a man of action and wasn't going to be victimized.

The whole incident doesn't fit his revenge plan, AND just that "you don't mess around with Ben". That said, it seemed kind of odd that two horsemen in a desolate area were immediately on top of Ben when he arrived. Did they expect him or someone like him (alerted)? Or did something visual or aural (flash/bang) happen that drew them to the area? We know that he tried to talk to them and they were pre-disposed to give him a hard time. Ben looked like he just came from 'hard-time'. If their encounter was accidental, then bad for them. If their encounter was expected or calculated... still, bad for them... cuz you don't mess around with the Linus man.

#355. Posted by: DocH at May 7, 2008 5:53 PM

"Do you have any idea how many different versions of the Millennium Falcon have been produced and sold as toys since Star Wars came out?"

LOL -I do and I still have most of them in my closet upstairs.!! But only from the original series. My Falcon is a lot larger than Aaron's.

#356. Posted by: berkyo at May 7, 2008 8:50 PM

@350. Posted by: Skipper

The hieroglyphics on the Ben Cave seem to translate roughly as "to summon protection."

#357. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 7, 2008 9:05 PM

@ Skipper

I didnt think there was a connection between SW/Tunisia/The 'Island' at first (and maybe ultimately there isnt) However..
Before Ben's time on the island, could the 'island' (by that i mean island properties) have been in the middle of the desert in Tunisia. And due to some change of balance between good & evil, the 'island' changed location to it's current location. Leaving behind some properties (along with some bear bones), specifically a rip or 'hole' which allowed Ben to get there.(We haven't SEEN anyone else jump out of thin air have we?).
Regarding Ben's coversation with Widmore, and the island changing locations. Maybe this signifies another change in the good/evil balance, hence a new location (otherwise why would widmore "never find it"), and Jacks' inability to find it.

Plausible?

#358. Posted by: Apollo at May 8, 2008 1:10 AM

@ Apollo 358

Apollo, maybe, but not likely.

I don't think the island moved. I think that the island is invisible or masked....again with the help of the Djinns they can mask anything (or make it completely invisible or make it look like something else). Also, remember when Desmond blew up the hatch and made the island visible? There were hieroglyphics on the hatch timer.... they appeared when the timer when past zero. I wonder if the symbols (if exposed) have anything to do with lifting the Djinn's spell and making the island visible again. (maybe the lifting of the spell released the electromagnetic force, and made the sky turn purple? I’m reaching here.)

Widmore 'generally' knew where to look for the island which makes me think that the island didn't physically move per se. He knew about the Black Pearl and where it vanished, etc.

Apollo, in your upbringing did you learn about anything that ‘scares’ the Djinns…makes them go away? Did you learn about what makes them appear and what they’re attracted to. Just curious. Here’s what I was told as a kid (Now that I think about it….it’s pretty messed up to tell a kid the things listed below. I still have mommy issues!)

 I was always told to come inside at sundown because that’s when they like to come out (you can’t see them but they are supposedly there)

 I was told that they can see me, but I can’t see them unless they decided to expose themselves to me

 I was told that they have extraordinary powers like, they can read my mind, travel to another land in the blink of an eye, etc.

 They co-exist with us, but aren’t supposed to interact with us. Some of the bad ones do interact and may even possess a human’s body. They usually do this only if the human has harmed them (usually the human harms them unknowingly since we can’t see them).

 Pouring hot water on the floor and accidentally burning a Djinn that you don’t see will get them pissed, and they’ll harm you back.

 If a Djinn decides to take the form of an ant or insect and expose itself to you and you unknowingly kill that insect (animal or whatever) they will be pissed and harm or possess you.

 Only one way to make sure a Djinn is not near you. You have to say “bismilla” (In the Name of God) and that makes all the Djinns within earshot scatter. Then you can smash as many ants as you want b/c the Djinns have left the building.

#359. Posted by: Skipper at May 8, 2008 9:12 AM

@lovelost/354 → anything written by VACC You just keep getting better and better.

Best... Compliment... Ever!!!

(Of course, the real challenge will be to see whether I can live up to the lofty standards set by boozy!!)

#360. Posted by: vacc at May 8, 2008 9:44 AM

Jack's beseeching question to Kate about being Aaron's daddy, "Do you think I'm good at this?" got me to thinking...

I wonder if Claire told Jack about the psychic telling her that she musn't permit anyone else to raise Aaron? Or maybe we haven't seen it yet, but Dr.Dad told Jack that he musn't raise Aaron...maybe he even told him that Sawyer is the one who should raise Aaron. Or maybe Jack has been visited by Charlie too. Or maybe he's had dreams telling him he should not raise Aaron. But Jack, being a man of science, ignores the oddly transmitted messages and does what Jack thinks is best which also just happens to be the same thing that permits him to boink Kate.

It's typical Jack behavior. Locke told him, we have to stay. Ben told him, You must not leave. Jack ignores them both and moves heaven and earth to get them off the island. The only thing that influences Jack's decision making is rational fact. He disdains intuitive counsel from others. He is the kind of man who doesn't give much weight to, "I have a really bad feeling about this."

So Jack KNEW he isn't supposed to raise Aaron when he left the island, which might account for his initial refusal to be around the baby. He knew it and he did what he did anyway. So his meltdown is because his bad decision is coming back and biting him in the ass.

Because there is nothing more unsettling than realizing that the house you built is falling down because the foundation is unsound.

#361. Posted by: undaunted at May 8, 2008 10:36 AM

HAHA its really funny hearing you mention all the things you were told growing up about them, cause I was told the same things. Maybe not to the extent of coming indoors cause they come out at night since 'IF' I was “pure” or a “believer” then I would be immune from their harm. Of course, I wasn't, and if they were real, THEY would be running from ME. I remember a story about the Prophet Solomon who was able to control Jinn, devils and evil spirits, I think because the angels blessed him with supreme knowledge and understanding. Or maybe because of his obedience to God. Either way he prevented their evil and used them for beneficial work. A crazy bedouin once told me and a friend, that he his friend were messing with the 'black arts' and summoned Jinni in the form of giant spiders. He claims they did this by reading verses from the Quran backwards...

HEHE I just read the ‘bismillah’ thing again..

So I guess if you want to take this (religious) approach to what Smokey ‘is’, then it’ll carry out the will of whom ever controls it. HOW they would control it, would be a matter of being knowledgeable in faith. So Jacob would be controlling it, I guess, giving Ben a emergency option, whereby if he (Jacob) can’t be contacted, Ben can summon Smokey, as we’ve seen. How exactly, we don’t know. Maybe he pushed a series of buttons or maybe he offered a sacrifice (or his soul/body).

I hope they don’t use a supernatural approach to ultimately explain anything on the Island.

When people don’t understand something it’s easy (easier) to put it in terms of the supernatural. It’s just human nature. However, with more knowledge and technology, things can be rationally explained (at least in our world, and maybe in the LOST world). A series of coincidences can be seen in three ways: Just that, destiny or the results of controlled circumstances.
We can believe that the reason everyone is on the Island because a supernatural power wills it, to fulfill their destiny, subsequently attributing everything else we don’t understand on the Island to things of fantasy (which it may be).
Or we can take a more methodical approach to ‘how’ everyone came to the island, and attribute technology we don’t yet understand to what we can’t yet explain.

The point is the debate.

#362. Posted by: Apollo at May 8, 2008 11:17 AM

I hope it is controlled circumstances.I really want the numbers to make sense.Why would Hurley's winning ticket have those numbers? Why would they be on the side of the hatch? Why would they be transmitted by the Dharma group. And come to think of it, Why would they let Danielle change the message?

I want a real answers to those things.
The longer the show goes on, the more I am afraid I will be disappointed.

I am fascinated by your Jinn discussion. I know nothing about it. Maybe that's why the jinn theory doesn't feel right to me. It makes sense though, when I read it.

#363. Posted by: berkyo at May 8, 2008 11:48 AM

@ Apollo 362

Well said, my friend.

So there's one thing that stood out to me in your last post. Your crazy Bedouin friend read the Koran backwards to summon a Djinn in the form of a spider. Any chance that the backward whispers we hear right before smoky appears might be along the same lines? I don't have time to read the whisper transcripts right now, but maybe someone knows off hand if they can be connected in any way to Apollo's post about "summoning" a Djinn with certain verses or chants read backwards?

I can’t wait until tonight’s episode!

#364. Posted by: Skipper at May 8, 2008 11:55 AM

Apollo;

You touched on the "coincidence" angle of LOST which is the impetus for many theories attempting to explain them. Many people are looking for explanations for associations for which they think the odds would be astronomically against.

But I think that those coincidences happen everyday and we just aren't aware of them because nothing brings them to our attention. Once in a while it does come to our attention and we say, "Small world!"

I have no doubt but that there are people on this board who are associated with one another in some way that would surprise them. "I was born at 4am on 4.2.59 at St.Lukes Hospital." "Get out, I was born at 3:30am on 4.2.59 at St.Lukes hospital!" That actually happened to a friend and me. As a kid my Sweetheart could see into my backyard from his Aunt's house. We went to the same Sun Valley Dairy for ice cream all the time. Did we meet? I don't think so. Did we see each other? I have no doubt that we did; it would be odd if we hadn't.

I think that any explanations to explain the "coincidences" is unnecessary...they happen all the time.

And thank you & Skipper for your Jinn info. coming from a cultural perspective. Very interesting!

#365. Posted by: undaunted at May 8, 2008 11:56 AM

359 Skipper, @362 Apollo:

Very interesting discussion. Do I take it that you both grew up in Islamic households, countries, or both?

Where are you living now?

Don't think I've seem your monikers around here before - did this Djinn talk show up in a search engine for you? At any rate, welcome t the discussion, or my apologies if you've been here for a while and I just missed it.

#366. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 8, 2008 12:29 PM

4-10 (81) Something Nice Back Home

Attempting to live
A normal life, but mistrust
Shatters families.

#367. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 8, 2008 12:34 PM

Theory of the Numbers:

Sliding further down my slippery slope of feasible science vs. grounded science, Occam's Razor argues strongly against the numbers being coincidental. Here's my theory, a million holes and all. The Island/Jacob/Ben wants/needs Hurley for some reason. To get him there he uses two of the strongest tools at his disposal: time travel and manipulation. He future flashes to a time when the numbers will win the lottery or somehow manages to manipulate the lottery so that those numbers will come up on a certain day. Then he sets up the loony repeating the numbers in the loony bin prior to the lottery drawing, knowing they will get imprinted strongly in Hurley's mind. Knowing Hurley plays the lottery via the extensive personal research he seems to be able to do, all he has to do is have him buy those numbers on the day those numbers will come up. Hey, if Ben can kill Sayid's girlfriend and not only convince him that his enemies did it but then also recruit him as an assassin, or Michael to kill for him and on and on, surely he can get Hurley to buy a lottery ticket with certain numbers on a certain day.

#368. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 8, 2008 12:37 PM

-365 Undaunted
-368 Scooby Dude

“In the magical universe there are no coincidences and there are no accidents. Nothing happens unless someone wills it to happen.” William S. Burroughs

#369. Posted by: lovelost at May 8, 2008 12:55 PM

haiku cont....

Something Nice Back Home,
Here's Where I get My "Jinfo",
Something Naughty Next?

#370. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 8, 2008 1:14 PM

That whole Star Wars parallel is just really on my mind since seeing the Falcon toy. Luke and Leia being siblings but not knowing it for so long (Jack and Claire), Padme dying just after birthing L & L (just like Ben's mum), serious daddy issues between Luke and Vader (ala everyone on Lost), R2D2 being the constant and key to the whole SW saga (ala Vincent)...

I'm sure there are a bunch more parallels I'm missing (like the Force vs. Obi-Locke's powers, Jar Jar's bug eyes vs. Ben's bug eyes, Jedi's disappearing after death only to reappear apparition style later vs. all the deadies on Lost running around, etc. etc.)

Feel free to add to this list at your leisure. We've gotta have something to do for the next 8 hours!

#371. Posted by: JoePike at May 8, 2008 1:43 PM

@ 366 Cecil Rose

> Very interesting discussion. Do I take it that you both grew up in Islamic households, >countries, or both?

>Where are you living now?

>Don't think I've seem your monikers around here before - did this Djinn talk show up in >a search engine for you? At any rate, welcome t the discussion, or my apologies if >you've been here for a while and I just missed it.

Cecil,
I grew up in TX. and still live here. My mother is Tunisian, father is Libyan and husband is Egyptian. I'm looking for an Algerian and Moroccan to add to my clan so that we can dominate North Africa. Let me know if you know of any candidates.

Yes, I grew up in an Islamic household, but my parents were pretty liberal, (And just like ‘time’, the word ‘liberal’ is relative).

I am new to this board. I found it recently because I was desperate to talk to someone about Lost and no one in my immediate circle is as obsessed with it as I am. I just did a search for ‘Lost Blog’ and this board was one of the ones that came up… and the only one that I still read.

I started thinking that Djinns were involved at some point during the end of season 2 or early season 3. It was more of a passing thought that I quickly forgot about until I heard Widmore say to Ben, "I know WHAT you are" in season 4. That phrase reminded me of my original thought that Djinns might be involved, but I had little support for this idea and I was hoping to find someone else who already had it all figured out. That’s when Vacc pointed me to his post and article. Vacc had a full blown theory in place and even had the chance to run it by the writers! After reading his article, (and realizing that I'm not crazy) I started to think of more things that could support his theory, and that’s where we are now.

Thanks to Vacc and Apollo and everyone else who has contributed to the discussion! I check this board more than I check my personal email…. This is really exciting!

#372. Posted by: Skipper at May 8, 2008 2:01 PM

@ Scooby-dude

Yeah I was thinking something along those lines as well. I don’t see why it would be so hard to manipulate the outcome of a lottery; depending on the circumstances (maybe Ben/Widmore funded it?). Personally I don’t believe Ben had a hand in Nadia’s (or Noor) death, my first instinct was that he was somewhat shocked & excited by the news and opportunity presented to him when it came up on the news (Side note: the Arabic writing in the news cast, was horrible. Whereas Ben’s pronunciation in the desert was brilliant. Just thought it worth mentioning).

I can’t however explain how they could manipulate him into picking THOSE numbers, to get him unto the island. Then again, perhaps it might as well have been anyone else who could have selected those numbers and the consequence would have remained the same; they would have ended up on the island.

@ Undaunted

I know what you mean, just recently I met a girl in Montreal at a bar, just by chance, and we got talking. Turns out she, like me was visiting (both of us from Toronto) a sister in Montreal, both of whom lived in the same building. Coincidence. However, She and I Live across the street from each other in Toronto. Another coincidence. The more we talked, we realized we like a lot of the same things; philosophy, psychology, tennis, blah blah.. More Coincidence. Then she mentioned how its fate we met, interested, I asked how so. So she said she didn’t supposed to go out but her sister forced her and whatever. And I told her, similar thing happened to me, I wasn’t even supposed to stay in Montreal as long as I did, but my sis wanted me to so I stayed.

Basically it was just a small series of steps that I took to lead me to that bar on that night and met her, but when someone looks back the chances to coincidences seem too high to be reasonable. But if I left the day I should have, I would have met someone else probably, and I could have just as easily found more coincidences there.

But yeah they do happen all the time. Take out a deck of cards, shuffle them and arrange them anyway you want to. Whatever that arrangement turns out to be, its chances were almost 1 in 1x1068. A ludicrously large number. Impossible when you look back. And yet, you have that odd in front of you..

@ Cecil Rose

Hi, I’ve been coming to the board for years, but I never posted until now. Don’t know why… First step is always the hardest. I was brought up in both Islamic culture and household, moved to England for Uni, and now I’m in Toronto.


Tonites episode is gonna be great!

#373. Posted by: Apollo at May 8, 2008 2:28 PM

I found this following theory regarding Jacob, Locke, etc on another website (forgive me mac for I have strayed ;-)) It’s quite long and I’ll understand if Mac feels it should be moved to the theories section or deleted altogether:

This is my theory on Locke, and how Jacob has been influencing him since season 1. John Locke, more than anyone has had some strange encounters on our favorite island. Many of which we wouldn't realize what really was going on. Lets go over what we know about the Island/Jacob and the smoke monster.

* Jacob can communicate with people through their dreams.
* Jacob can talk through other people, both while they are conscious and unconscious.
* Jacob can take the form of dead people
* Jacob can see events in the future
* Jacob can cure diseases, and cure Locke's paralysis
* Smokey - in some way - is connected to Jacob. We know this because in 4x09 "The Shape of Things to Come", Locke asks Ben what the smoke monster is. Ben replies "You can ask Jacob all about it when we get there."

Alright, so back to my main man Locke. When the plane first crashed, we know that Jacob was instantly on the scene. We know this from "Missing Pieces 9", the short canon clip that shows Christian Shepard talking to Vincent, "Go wake up Jack, he has work to do". Jack isn't the only one who has work to do. Jacob has a plan for Locke too. In fact Jacob NEEDS Locke, he needs help. He knows that John Locke is the only one who can help him. So what does he do? He gives John his dignity back. He gives him the ability to walk.

Jacob then retreats and lets John settle into his new home. Let's him get to grips with his new found life. For a while anyway. 11 Days pass until Jacob visits John again. On day 11, while Locke is out hunting, he bumps into our good friend Smokey. Smokey approaches Locke, the exact same way it approached Mr. Eko in Season 2. We can assume then that Smokey scanned Locke's memory just like it did to Mr. Eko. In some way, Jacob and Smokey must be linked. Because the memories that it scanned from Locke's head, will be used later on by Jacob in influencing Locke's actions.

So the monster retreats with its new found information and leaves John be for a while. Locke now feels connected to the Island. "I've looked into the eye of this Island Jack. And what I saw was beautiful..". He can predict the weather with astonishing accuracy, on an island that the Dharma Initiative were experimenting with the weather. He catches bore, helps everyone out that needs it. Then on day 16, he finds a hatch. Locke believes that finding the hatch was his destiny, and so do a lot of viewers. But I disagree. Jacob did NOT want Locke to waste his time on the hatch. Boone and Locke, keep the hatch a secret from everyone. He wastes a lot of time excavating it, and trying to break in. So Jacob makes his first attempt to steer Locke on the correct path.

While Locke is fast asleep, Jacob gets into his head, and talks to him via Boone. Boone in this scene IS Jacob. Here's the dialogue.
Locke and Boone stand beside the excavated Hatch.
Boone: We're supposed to find this. We're supposed to open this right? Then tell me something John. If we're supposed to open it, why the hell haven't we opened it yet!
Locke: The Island will send us a sign.
Boone: (Mocking him) The Island will send us a sign...
Locke:All that's happening now is our faith is being tested! Our commitment. But we will open it! The Island will show us how!
Boone:What kinda sign will the Island send us John?

Mr. Eko's drug plane then flies in overhead, towards a cliff in the background. Then we see Locke's mother Emily, pointing towards the plane. Jacob took Emily from John's memory when he was scanned by Smokey. Then we see an image of Boone covered in blood, just as he was after the plane falls. Jacob is showing John that he needs to go to this area, NOT to the plane. So Locke and Boone take off the next day, towards where Locke seen the plane in his dream. Sure enough, there it is! But Locke gets the wrong idea. He thinks they were supposed to get up to the plane, and what's inside will help them open the Hatch. This pisses Jacob off, so Jacob does the only thing he can do to make sure that Locke does not climb up to that plane. He takes back his ability to walk. Locke ends up on the floor once again thus forcing Boone to climb the cliff and inevitably, falling to his death. So what was Locke supposed to find at that plane?

Jacob wanted Locke to find the Pearl Station. If Locke had found the Pearl station back in season 1, he would have made it to Jacob a lot quicker. He would have been able to see Patchy in the Flame,which would have led him to Ben, then to Jacob. But Locke misinterpreted the dream and he ended up beating his hand bloody on that hatch door. A few days pass and Jacob tries Locke again. This time its through Walt.
Locke puts his hand on Walt's wrist. Walt looks at Locke's hand and pulls away. "Don't open it!" he shouts. Locke asks what he's talking about. Walt says, "Don't open it, Mr. Locke. Don't open that thing!"

This is Jacob trying to steer Locke away from the hatch.
Locke ignores the warning, and is still determined to get down there. So him and Jack go get the dynamite planning on blowing it open. Due to the extreme circumstances, Jacob is forced into something he wouldn't normally do. He uses Smokey to grab Locke and tries to pull him into one of the many Cerberus vents located around the Island. He was probably planning on having Locke delivered straight to him. But Jack foils the mater plan. He throws the dynamite into the vent, which causes smokey to retreat and leaves Locke all alone.

So John gets into the hatch, and ends up pushing the button. What use is a button pusher to Jacob? Being confined to the hatch every day. In comes Mr. Eko. Jacob has big plans for Eko. In fact, Jacob has already influenced Eko into carving a certain inscription on his stick. "Lift up your eyes and look north" - John 3:16. If you watch season 2 again, you'll notice that after John and Eko first meet, there are MANY times when Mr. Eko's stick is right there in front of Locke. At one point he actually picks it up and reads it, Unfortunately he doesn't catch on. So season 2 carries on, Locke is stuck in the hatch and nothing is getting him out. Until that is, he sees the map on the blast door. Jacob uses this to his advantage. By this point, Mr. Eko has been scanned by the monster. So Jacob uses Yemi, through Eko's dreams and Locke's dreams to get them to the Pearl Station. This is where Locke finally starts to lose his faith in the hatch. He starts to believe that its all just an experiment which then leads him to destroy the computer, and the hatch is finally gone forever. Locke is once again free.

What's the first thing that happens to Locke after the hatch implodes? He wakes up in the jungle, opens his eyes and what comes flying out the air straight for him? Mr. Eko's stick. Coincidence? Jacob wasted no time at all in getting John on the right path. Jacob took Locke's ability to speak so that John would know he needed to speak to the island. So John builds a sweat lodge, and eats some of his home made LSD. The same stuff he applies to Boone's head in season 1. This gives Jacob another chance to talk to John in person. After a slightly disturbing trip round the airport, Locke makes it up the escalator to a pool of blood. Yet again, Eko's stick is the first thing he touches and Jacob tells John he needs to clean up his own mess. Locke comes out of the tent, and Jacob has given him back his voice.

For some reason, the island still has work for Eko. So Jacob sends Locke off to the polar bear cave, and he pulls through it. He rescues Eko and takes him to safety. Jacob then steps in again as Locke is talking to an unconscious Eko.
"I'm sorry," Locke says. "I'm sorry I ever doubted you. I'm sorry I gave up my faith in the island. I'm mixed up. Now our people are captured. If I'd just listened to you. If I'd just let you keep pushing the button I could have protected them, I could have saved them.Eko opens his eyes and says, "You can still protect them. You can still save them."
"I don't even know where they are."
"You can find them. After all, you are a hunter, John."
Charlie walks back and asks if Locke said something. Locke says, "He's awake," but looks back and Eko's eyes are closed. When Eko gets back to the beach, Yemi leads him back to the Pearl. Locke follows and sees Patchy in the flame. He returns to find Eko dead, killed by Jacob/Smokey because he did not confess to the sins he committed. While battering Mr Eko's stick into his grave, finally John sees the message that was written there for him weeks ago.

John follows the compass bearing, North 3:05. This leads him to the flame where he can finally talk to Patchy who lets him in on some of the secrets of the Dharma Initiative. Finally Locke's on the right path for once. Sayid cleverly finds the map of the Barracks that leads them to Ben. Ben agrees to take Locke to Jacob, but warns him that he's going to be very unhappy. "Jacob is not a man you go and see. Jacob is a man who summons you". Jacob has been summoning John since the very beginning!

In the cabin scene, it's quite obvious that Ben wasn't talking to Jacob at all. In fact I think Ben had lost contact with Jacob a long time ago. This is why he was so interested in what Jacob said to John.
Jacob:Help me...
John:What did you just say?
Ben:I didn't say anything.
Locke:Yes you did. You said hel..
Cabin starts to shake rapidly as Locke turns his flashlight on.
So what does Jacob need help with? I'm guessing that Ben has been holding Jacob prisoner via the "magic circle" of ash that engulfs his cabin. But there's also another thing Jacob needs help with. The island is coming under attack from the freighter, and Jacob needs John to kill Naomi so that the freighter never gets a lock on the islands location.

Walt: Don't John. Put the gun down
Locke: Walt?
Walt: Now get up John
Locke:He shot me and I can't move my legs
Walt: You can move your legs. Now get out of the ditch John.
Locke: Why!?
Walt: Because. You have work to do.

This conversation carries on but unfortunately we don't get to see what else is said. All we know is that Walt tells Locke to kill Naomi, and not to let anyone use that satellite phone.

Unfortunately, John couldn't go through with killing Jack. If he had killed him, and destroyed the phone John would have saved the Island. I'm pretty sure Jacob would have guided John further after this. But throughout season 4, we have not seen 1 instance of Jacob trying to reach John. For some reason Jacob turns his attention to Hurley, summoning him to his cabin and then swinging the door open as if to say. "Come on in".

So has Jacob abandoned Locke for good? Has he thrown him aside just like Ben? Have I rambled on for far to long in this post? DO NOT WORRY! Because tonight, the accuracy of this post will be put to the test!

#374. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 8, 2008 2:31 PM

YOU GO MISTER GRIMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#375. Posted by: tiffani at May 8, 2008 2:44 PM

@Apollo said, "I can’t however explain how they could manipulate him into picking THOSE numbers."

In my thinking, Leonard, the guy mumbling the numbers, was a plant. If I heard someone mumbling the same numbers over and over again I'd probably buy a lottery ticket with those numbers too.

I agree that in hindsight everything can appear to be a coincidence. I wonder if we'll find out that a lot of what's going on can be explained by time traveling/seeing the "future" (e.g. Locke predicting rain is akin to a Desmonition).

#376. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 8, 2008 3:15 PM

@373. Posted by: Apollo

Just wanted to extend a friendly hello to a fellow Torontonian!

#377. Posted by: shikotee at May 8, 2008 4:18 PM

@374:
Thanx, Mister Grimm. Best piece of theory I've read in months. It totally makes sense.

I don't think Jacob would simply dismiss John, but he is probably dissapointed in him.
Although Locke often misunderstood Jacob, he has proven his loyalty, devotion and willingness to fulfill his destiny. + which cold heart would deny John Locke his glory, knowing the hell that has been his life before the Island?

I also don't think that he wants to replace John with Hugo. Hurly doesn't fit (no pun) the part that he wants John to play. The role he probably once hoped Ben would play. But Ben has evil genius issues. Jacob might need Hurly for something else.


@DJINN THEORY:
I would be dissapointed if the Djinn theory proves to be true. Taking a mythical creature from a specific culture (any culture) and make it the centerpiece of a 6 season spanning mystery, sparking the imagination of millions of people from countless different cultures and backgrounds. I I refuse to believe it, even though it does fit the bill nicely.

#378. Posted by: Robislost at May 8, 2008 4:27 PM

@Apollo:

Aren't the numbers also supposed to be an equation that predicts the end of humanity? Alvar Hanso wanted to find a way to change/manipulate the numbers, in order to save the world from impending doom, with his Dharma initiative. Or something.

#379. Posted by: Robislost at May 8, 2008 4:47 PM

→ 372. Skipper:

Welcome, Skipper! I had a Skipper doll that I loved when I was a kid...

"I'm looking for an Algerian and Moroccan to add to my clan so that we can dominate North Africa."

Aha! Another reference to RISK!

#380. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 8, 2008 4:55 PM

Mystery solved! :hairless future Jack.

Kate is doing things on the side for Sawyer.

Jack is 'doing' Julliet on the side, and ever since shaving Jack for the surgery, she has developed a shaving fetish.

#381. Posted by: mtncbn at May 8, 2008 5:26 PM

@ Robislost

Yup.

@374 (Mister_Grimm)

Thats on the money I think, I agree with Robislost tho, about not dropping John for Hugo. Hugos role is probably one of guidance to John. Jacob appears to have lost his trust in Ben, if ever he had any. So Ben can be viewed as untrustworthy, at least for now, whereas Hugo has always acted selflessly and truthfully.

A kind of good(Hugo) and bad(Ben) conscience for John.
A balanced force.

@Shikotee

Hi!

Also I just realised in my post (373)
I where I wrote: 1 in 1x1068. It should be 1 in 1x10^68 (1 and 68 zeros after it). That makes more sense.

#382. Posted by: Apollo at May 8, 2008 5:47 PM

Has anyone ever thought... What if Ben took Jack to see Jacob instead of Locke?

I know he wouldn't have, considering how stupid Jack is, and because Locke is the one with the connection to the island, and he's the one that wants to stay, -- but talking about how Jack is a man of science, it would have been interesting to see his reaction.

Even though John was a man of faith, and someone who would usually fall for this stuff, he still didn't believe it at first. He thought it was a joke.

... as would anyone else... but still.

I don't know... Jack's just really annoying.

#383. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 8, 2008 6:15 PM

Regarding the NUMBERS:

I assumed that one of the most their most important aspects is that they are the island's coordinates.

If you enter 4.815N 162.342W at Great Circle Mapper website it will locate you in the Pacific in the general vicinity of Fiji.

I don't think the numbers spawned the islands location, I think the island's location spawned the numbers.

#384. Posted by: undaunted at May 8, 2008 6:19 PM

@ Mister_Grimm - 374
AMAZING theory. I am quite impressed.
You should send that to Vacc, if you didn't already.

Very convincing, I agree with you.

As tiffani said... YOU GO MISTER GRIMM!!!

Everything you said made perfect sense and has great support. Well said Mister_Grimm! =] (That deserves a nice smiley!... rather than the evil one)

I loved the: "Unfortunately, John couldn't go through with killing Jack."

That was VERY unfortunate.

@ Skipper and Apollo
Very interesting discussion. I'm not Islamic or Middle Eastern, so I can't really add to it. But very interesting!

#385. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 8, 2008 6:40 PM

-375 Mr Grimm say: I found this following theory regarding Jacob, Locke, etc on another website.

Did you copy that verbatim or was some of that your interpretation as well? Just wondering.

After reading the entire passage, I immediately thought: free will.

We'll know soon enough! (Not soon enough for me in Mountain Time, though.)

#386. Posted by: lovelost at May 8, 2008 7:57 PM

@ 380. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

Ha! I had a Skipper doll too, good times.

But when I picked my name I was referring to the Skipper on Gilligan's island. When the previews for Lost first came out (before the Pilot episode) I remember thinking to myself, 'great an updated version of Gilligan's Island, just what we need'. BOYYYYY was I wrong! Naming myself Skipper is my way of eating humble pie:)

Thanks for all the warm welcomes, everyone :) 1 more hour until my favorite show starts!!

#387. Posted by: Skipper at May 8, 2008 9:05 PM

Guess what everyone?!?!?!

44 minutes till CABIN FEVER!!!

Although, I can't be too sure about it, since you know -- Time is all relative.

#388. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 8, 2008 9:17 PM

@Mister_Grimm/long post

Thanks for sharing that. It's an interesting take on Locke, Jacob, and Eko. I didn't mind how long it was, because it is pretty timely. As pointed out at the end, this may be confirmed or debunked in it's entirety by 11pm tonight.

I wasn't clear from the wording if what you posted was the actual theory you found on another site which you agree with - or if this is your theory which evolved from the info you found on the other site. (reason I'm asking is that if the latter is true, I'd want to use this in the LOST Theories section so we can extend the discussion beyond this episode)

I like the idea that while Jacob has been nudging Locke towards his real destiny, Locke (who ironically is so desperate to FIND his destiny) keeps latching onto anything that seems to give him a purpose. This is so consistent with what we've seen in his backstory.

I also like the idea that Locke misinterpreted the meaning behind the airplane overlooking the Pearl station.

At first I didn't agree with the premise that the destruction of the Swan station was an intended outcome.

However, this might seem plausible if you add into the equation the possibility that Ben may have been acting under orders from Jacob when he was captured and held in the Swan. This could mean the "Other formerly known as Henry Gale" was actually being truthful when he told Locke "I'm here for you".

We know that after the fact, Ben lied about not pressing the button, because if he had, the hatch would've been destroyed right then and there. The only motivation I could come up with for him lying about this would be to discourage Locke from pressing the button..

Still, I find it hard to buy into the idea that Jacob would put events into motion that would lead to the destruction of the hatch - simply to free up Locke for a greater purpose.

I guess it's my reluctance to diminish the importance of the button that led to my own adjustment to this theory -

My take on this is that Desmond was always meant to be the one to push the button, and eventually turn the fail safe key. Locke's intention to open the hatch jeopardized this, putting the Island at risk. To me, this could explain why Jacob was intent on pulling Locke away from this venture... First using Walt to warn him.. Then, leading him to the Pearl - so he could observe Desmond pushing the button as a futile waste of time.

I believe the original theory is correct in that Locke misinterpreted the dream - and also that the Island was prepared to revoke his walking privileges to prevent him from continuing on the wrong course of action. The smoke monster dragging Locke away as a last ditch attempt to keep him from opening the hatch fits perfectly as well.

But (unfortunately), free will is something that neither Jacob, nor the Island itself can control. (interesting side note : free will plays an enormous role in the djinn theory as well)

Perhaps this is the reason that the characters of Locke AND Jack - though polar opposites in so many ways - were both scripted to be such extremely strong-willed and stubborn people. Their stubborn determination has at times caused both of them to be a thorn in the side of the Island - or Jacob. Free will DOES exist on this Island - (Something Juliet questions in Season 3) And because it does, with both characters, once their minds have been made up, their will (to get off the Island, to open the hatch) does not yield to the obstacles the Island puts before them. Locke loses the use of his legs, then is attacked by the monster, but still manages to blow open the hatch. Jack's ride home is blown up, Naomi is killed, his appendix ruptures, the freighter people have ill intentions - yet we know he still manages to get off the island.

So Locke comes along - and by succeeding to blow open the hatch - he messed things up. Desmond - who was not supposed to leave the swan - takes off, and Locke assumes responsibility for the button.

For any possible number of reasons - including the reason stated in the prior theory (that Jacob has a different purpose for Locke) Jacob leads Locke away from this activity.
I think it's more likely that "Henry Gale"'s mission was a test of Locke's faith. (Even more irony is that in this task, Ben seems able to push Locke's buttons so easily) This convinces Jacob that Locke cannot be trusted with the responsibility for the button. With Desmond gone, he sets up the events that lead to Eko believing in the importance of the button while simultaneously removing whatever faith Locke had in it's importance. At that time in their life's Journey, Eko was more a "man of faith" than Locke, and was a more reliable safeguard against the destruction of the hatch.

But here again, free will comes into play. Locke's stubbornness and the strength of his (incorrect) belief that the button was meaningless wouldn't let him leave it alone. (I'm reminded here of Christian Shephard's words to Jack... "let it go").

Locke was not going to let it go - in fact, he was determined to intervene. If Locke were successful, (and if Ms. Hawking was being truthful with Desmond), this would result in the death of everyone on the planet.

I believe that this accounts for the timing of Desmond's return to the Island. Locke tries to shake Desmond's belief in the button - which will take a lot of doing after Desmond's one close call. So Locke takes Desmond to the Pearl station to show him what he had discovered there. But what Desmond finds in the computer printouts at the end only serves to renew his faith in the button.

Too late! Locke can't be swayed, and now Desmond - the only one who could avert the disaster - has to turn the failsafe key. I won't go down the path of speculating about what the effect of that action was, but we are reasonably sure that turning the failsafe key averted the disaster.

In the end, I believe Eko's death was punishment for his failure over the button, not for his lack of repentance.


That's all I got for now. Thanks again Mister_Grimm for posting that excellent theory. I agree that tonight's episode may make this a mandatory read for all come tomorrow morning. New episode in 45 minutes.. tick..tick..

#389. Posted by: vacc at May 8, 2008 9:17 PM

@vacc
In the end, I believe Eko's death was punishment for his failure over the button, not for his lack of repentance.


I've been away and haven't totally caught up on the most excellent MrGrimm and Vacc novels, but I caught this snippet above.

I wonder if you're over analyzing. Maybe it's much more simple. Like Echo became something on the island that he wasn't supposed to be in the real world, i.e. course corrected. Charlie became something on the island that he wasn't supposed to be in the real world, "course corrected" Funny that the ones that were bad in the real world got snuffed out on the island when they did something good. Thinking of the Jimmy Kimmel show, maybe when they changed to the light side, they got taken to a better place...????

You guys are much more into this and smarter than me so I dunno...

#390. Posted by: IdMonster at May 8, 2008 9:39 PM

Now I know why this show is called Lost... if you watch it your even more lost than you were the episode beofre it. WHAT THE HE**

#391. Posted by: janeSweetz at May 8, 2008 11:25 PM

i have been watching lost since it first started and totally loving it. this is just a few theory's that are bouncing around in my head.
i don't think jack's dad was ever dead. i also think there is more survivors than the ocanic 6. and i think what might happen in the end someone will go through the time machine so every one who died will be saved.

#392. Posted by: kellie at May 11, 2008 7:55 PM