The Lost Blog

Key Points from "There's No Place Like Home, Part 1"

Season 4, Episode 12
Episode Air Date: 05/15/08

Point 1
Jack

Kate

Hurley

Sun

Sayid
Hoooeee, that was a dense episode! I'm going to skip my normal introduction (hold your applause) and jump right in because, damn, there's a lot to talk about.

In time I imagine this episode will be superseded by the as-yet-unseen events of the season four finale -- especially since the majority of "There's No Place Like Home, Part 1" involves people moving around the island and/or freighter -- but there is one very large, very important event that needs to be noted right up front: in a flash-forward sequence, we witness the public homecoming of the Oceanic Six.

Here are the high points:

Jack, Kate, Sayid, Sun, Hurley and Aaron arrive via Coast Guard transport at a military base in Hawaii (thereby marking the first time a "Lost" Hawaiian location has been used as an actual in-show Hawaiian location). Jack and Aaron are the only two Sixers who seem to be functioning normally -- everyone else is a zombie. Jack sees this as a plus, since they can all use the "I'm in shock" excuse when the press begin their onslaught.

During a press conference (yes, they land and have a press conference -- per Jack's "suggestion"), an Oceanic representative named Ms. Decker (Michelle Forbes -- better known to some as Pegasus bad-ass Admiral Caine) reveals the faux details behind the remarkable recovery of the Oceanic Six. I'm working under the assumption that Decker is not involved in any sort of cover-up, but that may prove to be an incorrect conclusion, especially since the Oceanic Six story is full of potential holes.

Nonetheless, here's what we learn from Decker and from the ensuing Q&A session between the Oceanic Six and the press (remember, these are all Big Honkin' Lies):

  • After the crash of 815, eight Oceanic survivors drifted in the waters south of Indonesia for a full day before washing up on the uninhabited island of Membata. On their 103rd day on Membata, a typhoon washed the remnants of a fishing boat ashore, and it just so happens it was stocked with supplies and a raft. The six remaining survivors (two died -- we don't know who or how), used the raft to float to the village of Manukangaa on the island of Sumba. The castaways were found (by Jeff Probst), identified, and then transported back to Honolulu.
  • Based on Decker's geography lesson, it would seem that the public still believes the fake Oceanic wreckage is actually the real deal. I was anticipating some sort of massive revelation (something that would make conspiratorially minded folks like Frank Lapidus froth at the mouth), but in hindsight it actually makes much more sense for the lying Oceanic Six to glom on to an already established lie.
  • Kate tells the press that she gave birth to Aaron while they were stranded on Membata. At the time of the press conference, Aaron is only five weeks old (he looks awfully big/grown for five weeks). An inquiring reporter tries to challenge her on her timeline, noting that she would have been six months pregnant when she was apprehended in Australia. Unfortunately, the line of questioning is cut off -- but there are some big questions surrounding all this. Namely, why didn't they simply say that Claire had been one of the eight survivors, but she died in childbirth (or in some other way) and Kate was asked to take Aaron? I know there are deeper threads regarding prognostications about who parents Aaron, so maybe there's an "island" explanation in here. But as it stands, the excuse of Kate giving birth to Aaron seems overly complicated -- and a complicated lie is never a good thing.
  • Sun says Jin died when the plane crashed. She seems very pained admitting this, and there appears to be some weird thing going on between Jack and Sun (he throws anxious looks her way). Jin's actual status remains unknown.
In the remaining flash-forward sequences, we see the castaways as they begin their reintegration into society. Some do better than others. For example, Sayid reunites with his long-lost love, Nadia, and the two seem reasonably content (for the moment ... we know their relationship takes a tragic turn down the road). Kate totes Aaron around to various Oceanic Six events (Hurley's birthday party, Christian Shephard's funeral, courtside at Lakers games, etc.). Hurley is kinda-sorta okay, but he's still haunted by the numbers and his mental state is already starting to show cracks.

And that brings us to the two characters with the most interesting developments: Sun and Jack.

Sun is full of two things: 1. a baby, and 2. vengeance.

The baby stuff plays out later (we know how it ends), but the vengeance emerges in full bloom in this episode. Sun has concluded that two people are responsible for Jin's death (again -- not sure if he's really dead or if he's "Oceanic" dead): One person is unknown; the other is her father. Sun digs a pointy boot into Mr. Paik's groin by buying up 50 percent of his company with her Oceanic settlement money, and the move completely sideswipes Mr. Paik, which is exactly what Sun wanted. I fear for the other person on Sun's list.

Speaking of Jack ... remember how we've all wondered how he would ultimately discover that Claire is his sister? There never seemed to be a clear path toward the revelation -- until now.

It happens during Dr. Christian Shephard's funeral. Held 10 months later than originally scheduled, the funeral brings together the remnants of the Shephard clan, members of the Oceanic Six (including Kate and Aaron), and ... one blonde Australian woman who stands at the back of the room. Following the service, the Australian woman approaches Jack and reveals that Dr. Daddy was a Dr. Daddy on two continents. She says Christian Shephard was in Australia to see his daughter.

You can see the puzzle pieces snapping into place within Jack's head: Australia ... daughter ...

And then, it all comes together. The woman tearfully notes that, in a remarkable twist of fate, her daughter -- the daughter she shared with Dr. Daddy -- was also on Oceanic 815. Her name was Claire.

Brain matter erupts from a fissure in Jack's forehead. It all comes together, but the lie he and the Oceanic Six are perpetrating prevents him from revealing anything to Claire's mother. Worse still, Kate is standing nearby holding this woman's grandchild. AARON IS RIGHT THERE!

After watching all this transpire, I'm surprised Jack didn't immediately swallow a gallon of absinthe and sprout inch-long beard hair.

Point 2
Jack

Sawyer

Kate

Sayid

Faraday

Sun

Jin

Desmond

Juliet
This episode's on-island events feature an inordinate amount of coming and going. I needed a freighter phone just to keep track of all the moving dots.

You'll recall that at the end of last week's episode, Lapidus tossed a satellite phone from the freighter chopper. Jack interpreted this as a signal for the castaways to use the phone as a tracking device -- and it turns out he was kinda/sorta right, just not in the way he expected.

Lapidus tossed the phone so the castaways could find him, and so Jack's primary mission in this episode involves following phone signals to find the chopper (and, by default, Lapidus). With the help of Sawyer -- who materializes early in the episode with Miles and Aaron in tow -- Jack tracks down the helicopter and begins plotting an escape plan with Lapidus. This meeting is clearly a set-up for some sort of finale rescue, but I'm not sure how it'll come together since Jack and Sawyer are planning to retrieve Hurley from the Orchid station (more on that in Key Point 3).

For the sake of clarity, I'm going to break down the rest of the events by character:

  • Kate -- Kate is all over the place in this episode. First, she joins Jack on an expedition to the Orchid station (an expedition that's cut short when Sawyer and Aaron appear); then, she hauls Aaron back to the beach and puts him in Sun's care; then she teams with Sayid to find Jack; and finally, she and Sayid are captured by the long-lost Others, who make a sudden reappearance late in the episode. It's quite a week for Freckles.

  • Sayid -- Sayid uses the Zodiac raft he procured from the freighter to successfully make his way back to the beach. As noted, he then joins forces with Kate to track Jack, but ultimately becomes a captive of Richard Alpert and his merry band of gun-toting Others.

  • Danny Faraday and Charlotte -- Upon hearing that Keamy and the Widmore mercenaries are headed to the Orchid station (knowledge he gleans from the satellite phone), Faraday gets even more nervous than usual. He knows that the "secondary protocol" has been activated and, judging from his furrowed brow and twitchy demeanor, he knows what that involves. Charlotte, however, doesn't seem to understand what all this secondary business is about, but she gets the message when Danny tells her that they both have to get off the island ... like right now.
  • Sun, Jin and Aaron -- Aaron begins the episode in Sawyer's care, then he's transfered to Kate, and he finally ends up cradled in Sun's arms. After Sayid arrives with the Zodiac raft, Danny Faraday volunteers to start shuffling castaways back to the freighter (this is possible because Keamy and the boys are currently on-island, so there's a small window for the castaways to escape and zip off on the freighter before the mercenaries return). Sun, Jin and Aaron are passengers on the first trip to the freighter, and all three arrive safe and sound ... for now.
  • Desmond and Michael -- Michael has an awkward reunion with Sun and Jin (remember, he and Jin were buddies -- but that's no longer the case after that whole killing Tailies thing and his subsequent employment with Ben, Inc.). He also makes himself useful by fixing the freighter engine. For approximately three seconds it looks like the castaways and the freighter folk will be able to stage a remarkable getaway, but a weird transmission emanating from the ship causes the second mate to bring the boat to a standstill. And things get much, much worse when Desmond discovers that the source of that transmission is a massive pyramid of explosives wired in the freighter's hold.

  • Juliet, Rose, Bernard, et al. -- On the beach, hoping to be rescued and/or not killed.

  • Boone, Arzt, Shannon, Ana-Lucia, Libby, Eko, Nikki, Paulo, Charlie, Rousseau, Karl, Alex -- Still dead. Rescue doubtful.
Point 3
Ben

Locke

Hurley
Locke has been large and in charge over the last couple episodes, but we see an interesting switch in the Locke-Ben-Hurley group dynamic this week. Jacob may have told Locke what to do (that whole "move the island" thing), but Ben is the man who actually knows how to make it happen. And so, as this episode progresses, we see Ben regain his island mojo.

The Island Moving System (IMS) is managed in a previously-undocumented Dharma location: the Orchid (aka "the greenhouse). Ben guides Locke and Hurley toward this location, but along the way he unearths a 15-year-old Other box and uses a mirror contained within to signal someone high up in the island hills. I'm assuming he signals Richard Alpert and the hidden Others ... or maybe it's a bizarre form of reflective semaphore (who knows with this guy).

The trio reaches the Orchid, but they're disheartened to discover that Keamy and the Widmore mercenaries have already arrived. When Ben offhandedly mentions that Charles Widmore knows about the Orchid and "what it can do," Locke's ears perk up because Ben just recently claimed ignorance regarding Widmore's true intentions. Ben, in that classic Ben way, notes that he wasn't "entirely truthful." Shocker.

As it stands, we don't know much about the machinations of the Great Island Migration. Hurley attempts to get details throughout the episode, but Ben delights in offering only the smallest morsels of information. He does confirm that the moving functionality is a last-resort measure and, more importantly, the actual process is managed through a secret underground facility located beneath the Orchid. But that's all we get, because Ben stages his own "last-resort measure" in the closing moments of the episode.

In an effort to either divert the Widmore mercenaries or get them off the island altogether, Ben walks up to the Orchid station and surrenders. Keamy digs the barrel of his gun into Ben's forehead (inadvertently activating Ben's buggy-eye G-spot ... whoops), and then pistol whips Mr. Linus into unconsciousness.

And that's when it ends!

Point 4
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "Jesus Christ is not a weapon" -- Mrs. Reyes to Hurley.
  • Second Best Line: "How many times do I have to tell you, John? I always have a plan." -- Ben, feeling frisky.
  • My inventory of Dharma stations is a bit outdated, so I fired up the Interweb and visited Wikipedia for a refresher. As it stands, we've seen or heard of the following: The Arrow (the abandoned hatch used by the Tailies); The Swan (the original hatch); The Flame (Mikhail's communication station); The Pearl (the underground station with the TV screens ... and Paulo's favorite toilet); The Staff (the medical facility); The Hydra (the station with the bear cages and Jack's aquarium cell); The Looking Glass (the underwater facility where Charlie met his destiny); The Tempest (the gas station); and The Orchid (the greenhouse/island moving station). Did I miss any?
  • A little reminder: "Lost" will return in two weeks, May 29, with the two-hour season finale. Intrepid Lost Blog regular Vacc will be handling recap duties for the finale (thanks Vacc!), so this review marks my final contribution to season 4. Thanks to everyone for another fantastic season -- I know I say this all the time, but I am always amazed at the high level of conversation you guys consistently bring to the blog. The folks who visit the Lost Blog make it a very special place, and I am forever thankful for the opportunity to be part of it!

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3" -- Season ... finale. Hold on to your britches! Airs Thursday, May 29, 2008 at 10 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

Tha must have ben one heck of a settlement, for Sun to buy a controlling interest in Paik Industries with it.

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Odometers with both trp meters rarely have tenths in the regular odometer. They had to fudge that in Hurley's Camaro.

#1. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 1:25 AM

this show is stressing me out! thanks for the reviews mac you rock!

#2. Posted by: laura at May 16, 2008 1:34 AM

THIRD POSTER yeah

Great show tonight... loved all the emotional reunions and confrontations as the Oceanic VI come back to civilization.

Still don't know what Locke and Ben are gonna do in regard the Orchid. Can they really save/move the island?

Cant wait to read Mac's review(but i hear it's great as always), hear the damon/carlton podcast tomorrow, then rewatch the show a second time, with subtitles on. this gives you the complete LOST experience, that is at least until the dvds come out and you have to start all over again with commentary tracks, etc.

Great site Mac. Love the community of smart, odd, interesting people who post hear. I learn lots about the show from every single contribution. Thanks to all.

#3. Posted by: RONB at May 16, 2008 1:47 AM

@mac

>Kate/Aaron...courtside at Lakers games...

So Jack Nicholson's in the next ep?

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@mac

>Faraday gets even more nervous than usual. He knows that the "secondary protocol" has been activated and, judging from his furrowed brow and twitchy demeanor, he knows what that involves. Charlotte, however, doesn't seem to understand what all this secondary business is about, but she gets the message when Danny tells her that they both have to get off the island ... like right now.

Given this and his feelings for Charlotte revealed two ep back, how is it that Faraday didn't get Charlotte in the fist boatload?

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@mac

You left out Scott (or was it Steve?) from th list of the still-dead.

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@mac

>...previously-undocumented Dharma location: the Orchid...

Aside from the odd ComicCon.

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@mac

>Did I miss any? (hatches)

Did the other fake-hatch in the yurt village count? It had a symbol, was there a name?

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@mac

Thanks for a great season of recappin' and don't be a stranger to the random topic in the of-season.

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@mac

>Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Forum? What is this forum place of which he speaks. [hhok]

#4. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 1:48 AM

What's the deal with Sun buying a majority share in her father's corporation? Sure "Paik Industries" is worth a billion or two. But that includes the "SUBSIDIARIES"!

Most 'controlling' corporations are fairly small and are family and close friend traded, and not publicly traded. If Sun got a 20 Mil settlement AND got family and friends to back her, she may have easily gotten the control of the 400,000 shares she needed to take over the "CORE" corp. that controls the very broad "PAIK Industries". The offshoots don't have to be purchased by Sun... if she controls the conglomerate hdqtrs, then most of the subsidiaries will follow her lead. What I want to know is, if her father was one of the two that led to the loss of Jin, who was the second?... Widmore? who..?

#5. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 16, 2008 1:51 AM

I missed the first 20 minutes of the episode (the time slot change has been butchering my enjoyment of the season) but I'm not surprised they go along with the fake wreckage story. How else would Widmore still be living in a penthouse rather than sitting in jail? Ben is too anonymous to the world at large to pin it on him. Are we also left to assume that Sun means Widmore is the other man responsible for Jin's death?

I'm interested to see exactly what Keamy's orders are. He didn't care who was back on the ship because they were going to blow it up, but what are they trying to do at the orchid station? They can't be trying to move it so Widmore can find it... the people he hired already found it.

For a few minutes I thought the plan B was to force Ben to use the orchid to escape the island so he could be dealt with later (they apparently cannot kill him under strict orders, and we know he ends up in Tunisia) but he surrenders himself so that cannot be it.

They can't be trying to destroy the island since they're not planning on leaving and mercenaries don't do suicide missions. Should be interesting to see how it pans out.

#6. Posted by: Mike at May 16, 2008 2:00 AM

First off - Sun, you go girl! That was a great scene when she knocked her father down a peg.

Interesting ep!

#7. Posted by: Connie at May 16, 2008 2:02 AM

Awesome ep! Can't wait for Part 2.

Eek-remember the Desmonition about Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter? What if his reception was a little fuzzy, and it's actually Sun and Aaron who get on the helicopter to safety, before the freighter blows? Double eek-what if Des and Jin are fish food? No way, I refuse to believe my own speculation! And I think Michael is in the casket, so he can't die yet.

Jack is such a jackass. "I promised everybody I'd get them off the island." "I sent Sayid and Des up in the helicopter. I'm responsible." Ugh, I wish Juliet had downsized his ego whilst removing his appendix.

~Love Sawyer looking out for Jack, despite their antagonism. He did it for Kate, I think.
~Sun rocks. Pregnant badass.
~Sayid and Nadia are running a close second to Des and Penny in my awesome love story rankings.
~The whispers at the Reyes residence totally gave me the willies.
~The press conference looked like some of the group cast interviews. Kinda surreal.
~Kate passing off Aaron as her biological child explains away the custody issues. Wonder why the other 5 agreed to that part of the deception?
~If Michael Emerson doesn't win an Emmy this season, there is no justice.
~"Those crackers are 15 years old." Hee!
~Why didn't Ben give Locke any instructions about what to do after he takes the elevator to the Orchid Island Mover basement workshop? Or will Dr. Daddy be down there with to lend a hand?
~The Alpert and Sayid stare-down was hot.
~So moving the island is a last resort, and apparently somewhat risky? I'm guessing it involves a PURPLE SKY! Can anyone say "electromagnetic anomaly"?

#8. Posted by: Clementine at May 16, 2008 2:04 AM

@mac:

Regarding missed hatces, what about that "place" where karl was being mentally tortured / being involuntarily projected with images and sounds like "I believe in Jacob"??
Was that a hatch / sattion?

#9. Posted by: Stilianos at May 16, 2008 2:08 AM

DAMN YOU HD-ABC...! or Rogers… They decided to skip the last 5 minutes of the episode…

Last thing I saw was RA taking Sayid’s gun, then (in Island like fashion), time-skip to Ben‘s cup-cake head interfacing with Keamy’s gun… What did I miss in between?

Poor Hurley, why is he still being tormented?! No wonder he goes “crazy”. I got the shivers when I saw the numbers on his car dashboard. Why is the island still messing with him?

Jin isn’t one of the 8 that ‘survived’ the crash, according to their story. One would assume Claire isn’t either. Any ideas who the two could have been? I’m guessing… I actually have no idea... Why should it be any of them?

Sun was great in this episode; did she really mean it that Jin was dead, when she said her dad was one of the two men responsible? Or only dead in the sense of left behind? I think the latter, it seemed to me she pulled the coup to gain Paik resources and go searching for Jin.

I agree with Mac about the device’s function as a fail safe. Personally I initially thought it was an anti-Smokey weapon, but this makes more sense.

So many more questions… Guess we’ll have to wait a couple of weeks…

Oh if someone can do this, can you post a link to stills from Faraday’s notes. I think I caught a glimpse of “time coordinates” scribbled on the Orchid page, amidst some interesting math.

And of course;
Nice one Mac, until next season..

#10. Posted by: Apollo at May 16, 2008 2:11 AM

Considering Daniel Dae Kim had his court appearance in Hawaii today for his DUI, let's hope that's not the reason for Jin's 'death' - as the writers did to Ana Lucia, Libby, and Mr. Eko...

#11. Posted by: Gail at May 16, 2008 2:32 AM

@Mac...For me this is a two-part show: One part Lost and one part Mac. I've been reading your blog for years now and the show wouldn't be the same for me without your input. GRAA and don't stop!

I always love reading the comments and I get much from them...

PT

#12. Posted by: poetictoe at May 16, 2008 2:34 AM

Thanks for your great review Mac! We'll miss your astute observations for the finale.

"...the excuse of Kate giving birth to Aaron seems overly complicated -- and a complicated lie is never a good thing."

Actually, we had a heck of a discussion on this very subject here in this forum!

It was a lie that had to be told but it was really a very simple one: I was pregnant. I don't know, but I don't think all women prisoners are given pregnancy tests. Did she even go to jail in Australia? That's a whole other can of legal worms...extradition, passport. And TPTB have shown us they will play fast & loose with court matters.

Had Kate told the truth, that Aaron was Claire's baby, Australia would take custody of Aaron because he is (through his mother) an Australian citizen. And Australia would not likely award custody of an Australian infant to an American fugitive who is wanted in the US for murder and arson. She might win a court case, but it is highly unlikely. It's more expeditious to say she was 6 months pregnant when she boarded the plane.

What is less credible than her being 6 months pregnant when 815 crashed is that Aaron is freakishly BIG and well developed for a 5 week old infant!

#13. Posted by: undaunted at May 16, 2008 2:46 AM

@Mac

so this review marks my final contribution to season 4.

= = = = = = =

Why is this your last contribution? Why aren't you reviewing the season finale?

This is the first time I comment here but always read your reviews. No episode is complete without your comments and witty remarks. I enjoy tremendously your reviews. Best found out there.

Thank you. Hope to hear your reply.

#14. Posted by: Serendipity at May 16, 2008 2:55 AM

Did anyone else think that one of the reporters knew more than he was letting on? The guy who asked Kate: "What was it like giving birth on the island?" seemed to have a bit of a knowing gleam in his eye. Perhaps he knows about the island and the fact that women can't give birth there, which would make Kate of special interest to him. Also, it seemed interesting to me that the reporters (especially this one guy) referred to it as "THE island." Why not just say the name (which I can't remember right now)?

#15. Posted by: katlover at May 16, 2008 2:56 AM

Eighteenth!

I swear Kate (but not the show) has totally jumped the shark. How in the world did she become an expert tracker? She now has the ability to wave her hand over the ground and know that "These aren't Jack or Sawyer. These are different tracks." I can't suspend my disbelief any longer. Come on!

I love this show.

#16. Posted by: t-code-j at May 16, 2008 3:32 AM

Woohoo, 19th. I loved the music that accompanied Sayid as he approached the island in the boat. Reminded me of the magnificent seven.

#17. Posted by: Ronny B at May 16, 2008 4:03 AM

Here's the screen capture of Faraday's notes:

http://tinyurl.com/6qydvr

And who the heck were those no-names that unloaded from the zodiac with Sun, Jin, Aaron and Daniel?

#18. Posted by: NotLost at May 16, 2008 4:40 AM

@ t-code-j

Kate has been a tracker since back in the day when her father (not biological) took her out in the wilderness. She's shown her awesome tracking skills before, i.e. following Naomie's true blood trail.

#19. Posted by: Lee at May 16, 2008 6:11 AM

Great episode and GREAT recap-synopsis Mac! Both very enjoyable. So many funny things last night - the “party theme” from Hurley’s parents was up there! (Admittedly, like the former poster said, the whispers were pretty creepy!)

Best moment for me was definitely BAD-ASS SUN nailing pops!

But that last sequence of faces in peril - swish, swish, swish, swish, swish - was really effective. Very tension filled closing montage!

I’m fearing for some of my favorites however. This whole thing seems rather omminous. And how the heck are the writers going to string this out for TWO MORE SEASONS?

(At least the actor playing Richard Alpert has steady work again. Caine sure was a bust!)

Looking forward to reading the blog. Concert season is over - I’m home for the duration. Have a nice vacation Mac.

#20. Posted by: davidrh at May 16, 2008 7:09 AM

@ Lee

Correct about Kate being a tracker, they covered that in season 1. Also, Locke has tracking skills.

#21. Posted by: Ronny B at May 16, 2008 7:35 AM

Questions about Sun and her pregnancy/baby: Does anyone know how far along she is when they are rescued or how long she was on the island before she got pregnant? Depending on the time frame, is she going to have some explaining to do as to who the father is if Jin died in the plane crash.

#22. Posted by: opserc at May 16, 2008 7:38 AM

My favorite bit: When Sawyer tells Jack that Hurley was with Ben, and Jack, sounding every bit like Sawyer, Says

"Son of a BITCH!"

#23. Posted by: debbie at May 16, 2008 8:04 AM

When Ben pulled out the mirror and was "communicating" with someone in the woods - Locke asked "Who are you talking to?" and Ben replied "Who do you think?" I'm sorry i don't know who - and does anyone know what he "said"

#24. Posted by: liz at May 16, 2008 8:09 AM

On the mirror communication, I assume Ben as talking to Alpert's group?

I'd keep a close eye on the nerd and red-head at all times. I assume the device on the head mercenary's arm would cause the ship to blow up if he died?

Lots of good screentime for Kate, always a plus. ;-)

Seeing the numbers on the car's odometer was fantastic, and very creepy! ;-)

Chris

#25. Posted by: Speedmaster at May 16, 2008 8:18 AM

as for moving the island, remember the screeching, mechanical sound we heard in season 1? Island Moving Apparatus, perhaps?

#26. Posted by: dharma anne at May 16, 2008 8:25 AM

@Serendipity: Unfortunately, I'm going to be at a conference for work when the finale airs, so there's no way I can fit in a review. It's a bummer, but I'm sure Vacc will do a great job in my absence.

#27. Posted by: mac at May 16, 2008 8:34 AM

This episode was ridiculously dense. They tried to cram too much into 40 little minutes, and often substituted cheesy dialogue for real communication.

Favorite line: Sun to her daddy, "Now you will respect me."

Worst line: "John, how many times do I have to tell you, I always have a plan." Tell that to Alex, you bug-eyed freak.

While I was thrilled to see that Claire's mom had conquered the coma, I thought that was the lamest possible way to reveal the Jack/Claire connection.

#28. Posted by: taylor0822 at May 16, 2008 8:37 AM

Thanks for the recap Mac. We'll miss your great insights re the season finale. I'm sure Vacc will be great - but there's only 1 MAC.

OK - now let me pry my lips off your backside . . . . (Loud smacking sound).

Last night's ep I thought was great. They have set-up the season finale in a pretty intriguing way. All of the O6 are scattered around different parts of the island. Can't wait to see how they get them all together for the escape.

I now believe that the device on Keamy's arm, that we saw last week, is a heart monitor of some sort. It is connected, via a signal, to the explosives on the freighter. The explosives are attached to a device that is sending out a signal to the device on Keamy's arm. If Keamy's heart stops the device on his arm sends a signal back and the freighter goes BOOM.

I loved Sun taking her father down a peg. He definitely didn't see that coming.

Fav Line:

Hurley eating the saltines. Ben steps past him and says, "You know those are 15 years old." The look on Hurley's face = priceless.

See you next season Mac.

#29. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 16, 2008 8:39 AM

So here I am, posting for the first time after years of lurking. Mac, I used to read your reviews to fill in the gaps in the show - now I watch the show so I can enjoy your review!

Anyway - two nagging questions after last night's episode. First - I've been wondering since last week - with new mother Claire gone missing, how are they going to feed Aaron? If he's only 5 weeks old, she must have been nursing him - but I don't remember seeing any Other or Dharma-issue baby bottles or formula (why would there be? None of the Other pregnancies came to term).

...which leads to question #2 - if Kate had given birth 5 weeks ago on an uninhabited island, she would still be nursing that baby, and we can pretty well assume she's not. You'd think somebody might notice / wonder about that.

...and another thing. Wasn't Claire's mother in a coma just before Claire left to take her as-yet-unborn baby to LA? I had the impression that Mom was in a permanent vegetative state. Apparently she snapped back, and looked pretty good for somebody who had been in a horrific accident only 6 months previously, living on a respirator and feeding tube.

I suspect that little Aaron will play a big part in the next two seasons. Remember Hurley's "off hand" comment (is anything off hand on this show?) when Locke and Sawyer were playing Risk a couple of weeks back - "Australia's the key to the whole thing" -?

Anybody?

#30. Posted by: occam at May 16, 2008 8:40 AM

2nd Fav line:

Female Reporter: "For being stranded on an island for 100 days you all look pretty healthy."

Hurley: "Was that directed at me dude?"

#31. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 16, 2008 8:42 AM

>> "as for moving the island, remember the screeching, mechanical sound we heard in season 1? Island Moving Apparatus, perhaps?"

GREAT point! I had forgotten about that. So many loose ends. I was wondering when we would get back to the numbers.

#32. Posted by: Speedmaster at May 16, 2008 8:42 AM

As far as your list of the DHARMA stations: what about the Temple? It has its own logo: http://tinyurl.com/65mar2

#33. Posted by: Therese at May 16, 2008 8:44 AM

Dude! Cheech is Hurley's Dad......that
cracks me up!

great show last night

#34. Posted by: bean116 at May 16, 2008 8:47 AM

>> "Dude! Cheech is Hurley's Dad."

And not looking good, he looked embalmed imho. ;-)

#35. Posted by: Speedmaster at May 16, 2008 8:50 AM

That whole thing with Sun buying up a controlling interest in her dad's corporation seemed to come from completely out of the blue. Don't get why they really needed to put that into the episode. probably yet another question to be answered later.

So the remaining Others were waiting up in the mountains for Ben and then suddenly down in the wilderness waiting for Kate and Sawyer?

Mac, love the review as always. You left out the numbers showing up on Hurley's car (although you did mention him getting in touch with his inner crazy-person). A gallon of absinthe for us all!

So much for all that were calling Jack an idiot for heading towards the signal. Turns out Lapidius actually wanted him to do that.

I officially think Faraday is the slimiest character on the show after Ben. He apparently knows everything about everything that is going on, seemingly as much as Ben from his brief revealing moments of conversation. Yet he plays this sniveling meek little person in front of the crowds so nobody bothers him. Kind of like what Ben did when we first saw him on this show, without the manipulative side of course.

Best Mac line: "...activating Ben's buggy-eye G-spot"

Apparently two posts got removed because those that declared "eighteenth" and "nineteenth" are actually sixteenth and seventeenth.

Anyone else wondering how they're going to tie up what happened to Claire? Is she alive or dead? Can the island just "take" someone like that when they haven't done a thing (from what I can see) to justify it?

I agree that the whole "this is my baby, I gave birth to him" story from Kate about Aaron, while it obviously works out fine because we see her still with Aaron years later, was incredibly hokey and should have been dealt with better.

How is Ben going to overpower the mercenaries senseless without his Jedi beat-down stick? :) Maybe Hurley can get his Other van and knock them all down!

If the island really does physically move, it had better be over a shark so we can call that moment what it is. If it quacks like a duck...

I anxiously await the season finale, but I have to say it's with a mix of anticipation and dread. I want to enjoy this show and continue to enjoy it for the next two seasons, but they've kind of boxed a number of things into a corner that I don't see how they're going to get out of them without some "oh no they DIDN'T" kinds of moments. I'm hoping to be as amazingly pleased and surprised as I was with last season's finale (AWESOME!), but I am a little worried.


#36. Posted by: LostedIt at May 16, 2008 9:30 AM

Wow, reading my post over again that was quite an overall negative post. Sorry, folks if I brought anyone down. I don't take back any of it, I think the issues I brought up needed to be said, but it certainly wasn't mister cheerful.

I truly do enjoy the show and especially all of you here. Insightful and intelligent only scratches the surface of the people the post in "Mac's world", and we're all the better for it. Hope all take my previous post in the best light.

#37. Posted by: LostedIt at May 16, 2008 9:38 AM

@6 Mike speculated:

>How else would Widmore still be living in a penthouse rather than sitting in jail?

What’s the exact UK crime for sinking an airplane in international waters filled with 234 bodies taken from a graveyard in Thailand?

<><><><><><><><>

@9 Stilianos asked:

>Regarding missed hatches, what about that "place" where karl was being mentally tortured / being involuntarily projected with images and sounds like "I believe in Jacob"??

That was part of the Hydra station on the little island off the coast.

#38. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 9:39 AM

My long awaited [Well, maybe someone out there was awaiting it] review of "The Invention of Morel" is now posted in the Random Topics '08 area. Click my name to be taken there.

#39. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 9:44 AM

btw,

What is the damon/carlton podcast RONB mentions??

#40. Posted by: bean116 at May 16, 2008 9:46 AM

Am I the only one who still wants to know....WHERE ARE THE KIDS? After the Others gave Walt back, they dropped the whole subject of the Tailie kids that were taken, and never saw the lady(forgot her name) that was "taking care" of them.
The fact that the writers would just dispose of such a previously huge subjuect makes me think that there are other "big issues" that mean nothing and are just meant to distract us for a while.... any thoughts?

#41. Posted by: dreeda99 at May 16, 2008 9:52 AM

Mac, long time lurker, but you'll be missed in 2 weeks. You will come by and share your thoughts in the comments, right?


I keep trying to come up with a better story for Aaron. He can't be Claire's, because Kate feels obligated to take care of him. Do you think it's a calculated move to help Kate in her trial?


I was sure that Jin would be one of the extra two Oceanic survivors, just for the timing of Sun's pregnancy. More than wondering about who those two are, I really want to know WHY the story requires two more people.

#42. Posted by: KMFPL at May 16, 2008 9:53 AM

@Mister_Grimm:
That's exactly what I thought when I saw the explosives, that it has some sort of heart monitor linked to Keamy. My guess is that he will die and the freighter will explode, but who gets killed? I have the impression that Jin is going to be one of them :(

#43. Posted by: DRivera at May 16, 2008 10:02 AM

@ Post 5. MorBid0

Don’t waste valuable brain cells trying to defend the cheesy soap opera cliché of “I secretly took over your company”. In the real world, it is simply impossible to secretly take control of a corporation, whether it is large or small, publicly traded or closely held, or a holding company or operating company. The scene of Sun’s confrontation of her dad was hokey Hollywood melodrama at its lamest.

I found it difficult to be engaged by this episode. It had the same infirmity as the last three Star Wars movies: you can’t really be surprised or thrown by plot twists when you know how the story must end. There’s no cliffhanger suspense, for example, in Jack’s bleeding wound or in Hurley being with Ben and Sawyer at the Orchid, since we’ve already seen them get off the island. I don’t find the process of moving them from their present circumstance to the hold of that military transport nearly as interesting as the writers seem to. I can’t bring myself to care much about the contents of another mysterious hatch, when the future plotline conflict has already been revealed to go well beyond small island mysteries such as those hatches. There’s a weird discontinuity in watching things happen at breakneck speed while being impatient for things to happen.

For me, the flash-forwards have passed from interesting and novel new twist to the storytelling to a gigantic string of buzz-killing spoilers. A lot of the show made me fell like I was watching a rerun. I knew Hurley was going to greet his restored car the moment that Cheech told him he wanted to show him his present. I knew that Nadiya was the one who wanted to see Sayid before they said it. I knew that Jack was going to find out Claire was his sister the moment that conversation started. The only one of those scenes where the acting worked well enough to make me care was the reaction shot we got from Naveen Andrews.

#44. Posted by: Deep Cover at May 16, 2008 10:09 AM

>@41 dreeda99 enquired:

>After the Others gave Walt back, they dropped the whole subject of the Tailie kids that were taken, and never saw the lady(forgot her name) that was "taking care" of them.

We saw them touring the cages and throwing peanuts to Jack with Cindy and her scarf in season 3. Maybe we can assume they're at the Temple with the other Others.

#45. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 10:09 AM

Sorry if someone has said this,i been lost 4 awhile, but does anyone think Alpert is Lock's dad. at the hospital the nurse asks john's mom if alpert was the father,i think the mom knew he was but could not say so ,if she had they would not have been able to put john up for adoption.

#46. Posted by: T -spoon at May 16, 2008 10:15 AM

Just to clarify re: the finale -- I won't be writing the recap, but I'll certainly be around and I plan to participate through the comments. (I'll also check in regularly in the long wait between the finale and season 5 ... it's not like I'm scheduling a six-month stay on the balmy shores of Membata).

#47. Posted by: mac at May 16, 2008 10:23 AM

Isn't Membata the name of Wilt Chamberlain in Conan the Destroyer? Sweet!!!

#48. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 16, 2008 10:29 AM

Ronny B,

That water theme plays anytime they're on the water. I believe it was introduced with the raft and reprised when Sun and Jin sailed around to the other side of the island and saw the foot. I like it, too. Very energetic and driven.

Cecil Rose,

My guess is that the crime would be 234 counts of defacing a corpse.

dreeda99,

I've been wondering about those kids and the Australian flight attendant, too. Are they at the Temple?

#49. Posted by: DB at May 16, 2008 10:31 AM

I wonder what was in the Jesus statue ... Maybe some of Charlie's heroin?

#50. Posted by: Bohn at May 16, 2008 10:32 AM

after last night's ep I'm starting to believe in the whole dobbelganger/cloning theory again. Off the island, everyone seemed so robotic - yes? Maybe they are "incomplete" because they have been "split."

Did anyone see/read "The Prestige?" -- that is the effect I'm talking about. Maybe that is the secret that they are bearing and hence, what they agreed to "go through" in order to get back home.

Regardless, it will be interesting, to say the least, to learn how the O6 end up as the only 6 that return/"survive." Since right now they are scatterd all over the place: Jack in the jungle with Sawyer; Sun and Arron and Jin on the freighter; Kate and Sayid captured by the Hostiles and Hurley outside the Orchid with Locke.

Me thinks it is gonna be one wild ride!!! And I can't wait.


#51. Posted by: GatorGal at May 16, 2008 10:34 AM

Haven't read all the comments yet, about to wade through them now.

"After watching all this transpire, I'm surprised Jack didn't immediately swallow a gallon of absinthe and sprout inch-long beard hair." Brilliant, Mac.

My fave line?--
After Ben unearths the old box and its contents, Locke hands the crackers over to Hurley, who immediately snaps into one. The best line is Ben to Hurley, with a mix of (probably) disgust and awe:
"You know, those are 15 years old."

I love Hurley.

OK- to the comments!

xo
-chopkins

#52. Posted by: chopkins at May 16, 2008 10:38 AM

@44 Deep Cover

I hear exactly what you are saying. I have discussed this with friends who watch the show as well. My point has been, "What exactly is *current* on the show?" Is it the future flashes? As you say, there is a safety net now for much of what we see on the island, since we know certain people will leave.

Dozens of guns pointed at Sayid and Kate? Ho-hum. They can't die. Jack bleeding out? No, he can't. What we now think of as current events has more or less become THE PAST. Weird, isn't it?

I think the most "current" moment would have to be Jack's cry of "We have to go back!" I think that is the furthest forward flash, but it's possible another flash could be further, and we just don't know yet from the context.

Fave Line last night: (Sawyer) "Wait up, you don't get to die alone, you know." Nice way to sneak part of an episode title in. (Live Together, Die Alone, as I recall)

Can't wait to see what happens with the Orchid finally!!

#53. Posted by: The Duf at May 16, 2008 10:41 AM

The big questions in my mind are:

1. Who was Ben communicating with using the mirror and what was he saying?
A. Alpert -- Can I borrow your skin cream? My face has taken quite a beating lately.
B. Jacob -- We're out of saltines.
C. Vincent -- I'm having a rough day.

2. Who set the explosives on the freighter and why? When they explode, will we have another Acme moment whereby the freighter remains intact but the ocean around it collapses?

3. Will we finally see the Orchid video and confirm that it's canon? If so, can we refer to season 4 as wabbit season?

4. Who are the 2 "survivors" who didn't make it? Will Richard Hatch be one of them?

5. Will Daniel (Action Jackson) Farrady become next season's Ben and assume a bigger role on the show?

#54. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 16, 2008 10:48 AM

As Sun approaches her father, in his office, Mr. Paik is discussing details of funds transfers from 5 different banks. He has probably just been informed that he has lost controlling interest in the company. And the 5 different bank accounts, could they belong to Sun, Hurley, Kate, Jack, and Sayid? Sorry if this has been discussed already, havent' read the recap yet.

#55. Posted by: Len at May 16, 2008 10:49 AM

Now we know why flying is so expensive. They can hand out reimbursemnt packages that will help you buy multi-billion dollar corporations. Just think how much Oceanic is worth!

@Clementine: There is a big red button labelled "Press Here To Move The Island" (Austin Powers-style)Even Locke can get that!

#56. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 16, 2008 10:51 AM

I was thinking the 2nd person responsible for jin's death (other than Mr Paik) was Jack. Weird, cold glances betwixt them.

also thought ben was communicating wit jacob. maybe not.

i'm so over kate.

#57. Posted by: lovemesomesawyer at May 16, 2008 10:54 AM

Few thoughts

1. re: 16. Posted by: t-code-j
I totally agree, I even said what??? Kate knows not only where they went but who they are and are not how sweaty they were, whether or not they went ate fish or leaves, what is she a dog now.. sniffing their scents? I know they covered her tracking skills but come on.

2. Now that I think of it, the past episodes were telling us Jack had to find out about Claire AFTER they get back. Cuz by then they have already lied and can't take it back. I love the Australian way "I know your at your Dads' funeral but let me burden you with this one final twist in your gut" (your dads' infidelity, a long lost sister also died feet away from you.)

3.I was hoping Ben would get island medieval on their asses and not just give up.

4.What happens to Juliet ! Dangit

5.Didnt Lapidus say the mercs went to the Orchid to wait for Ben to apprehend him? So the mercs went to get Ben, cuz they (Widmore) knew that would be the last step in the 'save the island' protocol? The mercs looked like they were waiting for something, not 'doing' something.
So seems like Widmore made sure they stopped him from doing so (save the island) by waiting for him there, BUT he doesn’t know about the Locke factor.

6. I guess the whole lie about Kate/Aaron could work I mean, what would they say? 'I know you have just been thru a horrific traumatic event and the fact that you are alive is an insane miracle but we are going to call bullsh** on your baby.'

7. I don’t think Jin is dead, it seems to me Sun was in shock but was very composed for losing her spouse days before. I think it was planned like that, to be ambiguous yet it seemed to me the difficult part was lying about him dieing at all, and not how.

8. I HATE that I am addicted to this show now

#58. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 16, 2008 10:56 AM

This episode was too surreal. The post-island story line was too forced.

First, the US coast guard would not ferry rescued passengers from Indonesia. Oceanic would have chartered a plane or first class passage on another carrier.

Second, the airport reunions were too staged, especially the Sayid-Nadia moment.

Third, why would you have a second public memorial service for Christian Shepard? Claire's mother was in a terminal coma so her bright appearance at the church made no real sense. How would she even know about it (if she was alive and well?) It is more probable that Claire's mother died when Christian's payment of her medical bills stopped.

Fourth, international companies do not have the same investment reporting rules of US publicly traded companies; however, more foreign companies are tightly controlled through family holdings or intertwined bank-financial companies. The average large Korean industrial company has a market cap of $10-50 billion. It is impossible for Sun to have used her settlement to buying a controlling interest in such a company. Further, since the O6 are part of a conspiracy, they are probably being blackmailed with their lives by the power(s) that let them leave the island. Powerful people don't waste their capital on settlements.

Fifth, the Hurley surprise party made little sense. It was used to convey the all the O6 having perfect, happy upper middle class lives. Except for Hurley's to freak out in the camaro -- the Numbers may be his subconscious telling him that this is not real, this is wrong, danger, don't fall for the bait.

As Hurley said last week, the post-island events are too perfect to be real; that it would be a heavenly dream for those involved if it was true.

The one line that caught my attention was "Jesus Christ is not a weapon." As a follow-up on my comments last week, Milton and Dante's writings of Satan battling God for heaven indeed has the Son of God as the key weapon that defeated Satan's army and banished the rebellious angels to hell. So in the battle of good versus evil, Jesus was a weapon.

#59. Posted by: welh at May 16, 2008 10:56 AM

Sawyer's "Genghis" reference to Miles was pure Sawyer.

My theory as how the O6 get back together and are rescued:

RA takes Kate and Sayid and meet up with Hurley/Locke/Ben at the Orchid. (Ben had signaled the Others to meet there.) A battle ensues.

Jack/Sawyer/Lapidus get the copter ready and then Jack/Sawyer head to the Orchid to join the first annual Move the Island, Orchid Reunion tour.

As soon as it is revealed that they are moving the island, Hurley, Jack, Kate and Sayid return to the copter(ever notice how fast friends scatter when you mention you're moving?) While Locke and Sawyer choose to stay to do the dirty work.

The copter takes off, the island moves (messing up travel plans), Ben is shot in the arm, and just as he is about to be shot execution style (but face up) he uses his top secret Orchid spider powers to jump to Tunisia.

Meanwhile Keamy is killed (and there is much rejoicing), thereby setting off the explosives on the freighter. The water is teaming with debris among which is the Zodiac, Sun and Aaron.

The copter arrives at the scene of the wreckage out of gas because of excessive flying while trying to follow coordinates that are messed up due to the island move.

They ditch the copter for the zodiac and the O6 are rescued in the dingy.

#60. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 16, 2008 11:07 AM

good morning to all,

i thought this episode was just ok but i enjoyed it none the less.

i think charlette and ole' danny boy will be the two survivors that were lost at sea. dont know why, i just do.

@davidrh
i liked the show CANE and was very disappointed that it got cancelled. apparently moonlight is being cancelles also. oh well :(

peace&love to all

#61. Posted by: tiffani at May 16, 2008 11:10 AM

Could they be trying to move the Island in time rather than location?

#62. Posted by: Pete at May 16, 2008 11:11 AM

The on-island events gave me the feeling of a dark version of It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World. You have groups running around looking for stuff and finding themselves in deeper trouble. The 815ers arrive at the freighter and find it rigged with a ton of explosives? (And when does the explosives read C-4 EXPLOSIVES! with an ! mark??) The crazy Three Amigos arrive near the Orchid station, and Ben takes out the mirror to signal who? Patchy? While Hurley eats old crackers (crackers a reference to nuts?) And why would Ben tell Locke what to do when Ben could do the work himself instead of surrendering? If Ben wouldn't give himself up to save Alex, why now? Sayid and Kate, who were going to rescue Sawyer and Jack, now being captured by Alpert, who was supposed to be at the temple, but are now probably following the helicopter to rescue Ben, but which leads them toward Frank, who is going to rescue all of them? See how maddening this is?

#63. Posted by: welh at May 16, 2008 11:13 AM

@44 Deep Cover: I believe that this is why we 'overheard' the conversation before Sun entered about the money coming from 5 different banks. Several smaller entities bought up Paik stock and before they realized what was happening. I realize that it is simplistic to think all of your buddies could secretly buy Microsoft stock and nobody would notice but, as you say, it is Hollywood.

Widmore Crimes: theft, destruction of private property, desecration of a corpse (234 counts apiece)

#64. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 16, 2008 11:13 AM

@61: "Since right now they are scatterd all over the place: Jack in the jungle with Sawyer; Sun and Arron and Jin on the freighter; Kate and Sayid captured by the Hostiles and Hurley outside the Orchid with Locke."

Well, all but Sun and Aaron could meet at the Orchid. Hurley's already there, Jack is going there for Hurley, and Kate and Sayid are presumably being marched there by Alpert (with lots of guns!) to rescue Ben. Then they return to Frank's helicopter and fly to the ship where they pick up Sun. The question then would be - if Sun fits on later, why not Sawyer on the first trip? So that means Frank's helicopter isn't their final transport away.

By the way, I will be *very* disappointed if the freighter actually explodes.


#65. Posted by: LockeBox at May 16, 2008 11:15 AM

It's minor point, but it keeps coming up so....

Sun's pregnancy doesn't need an explanation for it's timing. She and Jin could have done the deed the night before the plane took off.

The world doesn't know Jin had slow swimmers. Even if the world did know, some people who are unable to conceive do, against all odds, get pregnant.

#66. Posted by: undaunted at May 16, 2008 11:25 AM

→ 60. Posted by: bcre8ve

LOL on the Sawyer reference to Miles as "Ghengis"-caught it on the rewatch.

So many holes in the 06 stories you almost think it's intentional. Were the 06 all sitting side by side on the plane so they were the only ones able to quickly get out of the blown hatch? Oceanic obviously would still have the seating assignments.

Even with the episode shortcomings, can't wait the 2 hour finale.

#67. Posted by: dharma boy at May 16, 2008 11:26 AM

@54/Scooby-Dude Well played [8^)

@59/welh "It is more probable that Claire's mother died when Christian's payment of her medical bills stopped."

Are you kidding? Once the sugar daddy was gone, the hospital had to do something to get her out of there. etting her die would have taken too long. : P

DOCTOR: Why are you giving me this patient's chart? She's been in a comma for months.
NURSE: There's been a dramatic change in her case?
DOCTOR: What? She's recoverd?
NURSE: No, her sugar daddy died and we need the bed.
DOCTOR: Oh, I'll get right on it.

108 day's later, she's crashing funerals, neglecting grandkids, and dropping bombs on newly found step sons.

#68. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 16, 2008 11:33 AM

OK, so I've gotten through all the comments. It beats working. I dont have any cracked out theories after this episode, but my reactions to some of the comments:

@ 5 Morbid0 (and everyone else who commented on this): the scond person responsible for Jin's death, my guesses are either Ben (obv.) or Michael.

@10 Apollo: Good point about why have two other "extra" survivors who died on the island and weren't rescued. It really coudl be anyone. WHy have two other survivors though? Does it make the O6 story more believable somehow??

@ 26 Dharma Anne: The mechanical island noises. Isnt there also a weird mechanical noise whenever smokey comes out to do his thang? A weird clanking like a chain is being pulled or something... right?

@ 30 occam: good point about the non-nursing kate. Obviously nobody cathces on though, since we see them (presumably) years later, seemingly no worse for the wear...

@60 becre8ve: good theory, makes sense. But what happens to Lapidus? Unless Sayid can fly the copter???

@36 lostedit (and others with similar gripes): Agreed. This show is dangerously close to jumping the shark. I cant tell if it's brilliant, or just f*&$ing with us or what. I agree with those who've said there is no real suspense since the flash-forwards, since we know ultimately who "lives." Jacks stitches, ho-hum... etc etc. It's taken a lot of the anxious feelings I used to get about this show away. For me, yes I do want to know HOW the O6 get off, for sotrytelling purposes, but its not as important as the fact that they DO get off, which we already know. If that makes any sense? Unless the flash forwards arent real or something, or people are cloned or whatever, but if thats the case, well... I can only suspend disbelief and let myself be taken so far. That might be the last straw. I want some GD answers from this show, you know??

All that being said, dammit, I do love to hate this $hit sometimes, and I HAVE to tune in every week, listen to the podcasts, read these blogs instead of work etc etc etc. So, theyre doing somethign right, and they know it. I just REALLY hope we're not all let down at the end. Whatever the eff dharma is and the whole space-time stuff they got goin' on, it better be totally TOTALLY sweet.

Anyways, back to last night's episode-- agreed with those who posted that Sun taking over Paik was for two reasons: to take daddy down, and to use the considerable resources to find the island again. Also liked those that posited all 6 of the O6 were in on the deal. Very interesting...

K, thats what I got. I wasnt terribly impressed with this episode. I think this season reached its peak with The Constant and has been coasting/going downhill a bit since then. I'm really looking forward to the 2-hour finale to restore my faith a bit.

Oh who am I kiding, theyve easily already got me for the next two seasons, and damned if they dont know it.

Good luck in a couple weeks Vacc. Got some big shoes to fill...

xo
-chopkins

#69. Posted by: chopkins at May 16, 2008 11:33 AM

... and did the scene with the view from inside the Coast Guard transport (as the cargo bay opened) remind anybody of the climatic scene from "Close Encounters"?

As I've suspected, the O6 are all aliens.

#70. Posted by: dharma boy at May 16, 2008 11:36 AM

Interesting observations from other blogs (yes, I read others but my heart belongs to Mac and Mac alone!)

* in FF scenes, Hurley's T-shirt bears the "Ace of Spades" -- commonly known as the death card or the card of war.

* Operation Greenhouse was the code name for America's A-bomb testing program in the 1950s... in the south pacific.

* Could the orchid time machine = the key to eternal life?

* Was Sun implying to her dad that she knew he deliberatly conspired to kill them (we don't know if he did) because he knew the plane was going to crash?

Boy, it is going to be a LONG, SLOW 8 months. Has ABC announced a date yet for the 09 season premier? Please let it at least be early January....instead of late Jan. or, heaven forbid, early Feb!

#71. Posted by: GatorGal at May 16, 2008 11:40 AM

Wilt played Bombataa

#72. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 16, 2008 11:48 AM

@69/chopkins - I think you and the other posters that followed my last post have said pretty concisely what I was trying to say but couldn't put exactly into words at the time. That I so want to LOVE the season finale for revitalizing a storyline that looks more and more like a recap that fills in all of the empty spaces while also just showing us things we already know or things we know won't go badly because we know the characters' futures.

On the Sun issue, if in fact the O5 (forget Aaron for a moment) in fact put their money together to buy Sun's father's business and use it for their own purposes (against Widmore, anyone?) then I can see a future for this new storyline thread. The whole vengance thing, though, at first glance seemed to come out of relatively nowhere with no basis other than to find some intrigue/activity in Sun's post-island life. I'd like to see something come of this story thread, otherwise it just doesn't make sense why they did it.

#73. Posted by: LostedIt at May 16, 2008 11:50 AM

Any ideas why the heading is 305 going in both directions to and from the island (not to mentioned changed from 325 I thought).... Any pilot knows if you came in on 305 and you want to get back you take 125... For some reason I can completely wrap my head around time travel from the island to the outside world but heading northwest to leave the island, and northwest to get back to the island completely confounds me.

#74. Posted by: MikeM at May 16, 2008 11:57 AM

More thoughts on the whole "using Paik Enterprises to fight Widmore/find the island again" theory(s):

If theyre using it to fight Widmore etc., well, it sure doesnt seem like they've made much progress or even consider it al that much from some of the other future-flashes we've seen. We know the flashes go at least a few yrs forward (grown Aaron, on-the-edge Jack etc.), and instead of being warriors or even cool corporate exec types, well, the O6ers are either crazy (Hurley, Jack) or living "normal" suburban lives (Kate, Aaron). We dont know what Sun is up to years in the future, presumably raising her kid and learning that greed is good...

The only one really taking on Widmore is Sayid, and thats because Ben forces him to.

Anyways, thinking about this more makes me really start to love/hate the future flashes. They suck because they reveal glimpses of what already happen, so theres no suspense in the "here and now."

But they have the potential to be GREAT, if only the writers would just, please please PLEASE use them to answer some of the WHY and WHAT questiosn we all have... why are widmore and Ben such enemies? What is Dharma? Why does the island have these weird powers etc...

The shows been going on for 4 seasons now, Itsl more than halfway done, and we still have NO answers. It's so frustrating, man. But, there is still a lot of room for these questions to be answered, and I REALLY hope they are, and satisfactorily, or else this all would have been such a waste of time...

Sigh.

Have I lost faith like Locke?? If so, writers, PLEASE send me an Ecko to bring me back!!

xo
-chopkins

#75. Posted by: chopkins at May 16, 2008 12:03 PM

I'm at work now, and I haven't had a chance to do more than skim some of the comments, so I apologize if I'm repeating what's already been said, but according to the O6 cover story, wouldn't three people have died on the island, and not two? 8 people were floating in the water, including a pregnant Kate. They made it to the island, 3 died at some point, leaving 5, and then Aaron was born, giving us the Oceanic 6 (not necessarily in that order).

#76. Posted by: BluSerene at May 16, 2008 12:11 PM

@76: Good point!! Love to hear someone explain THAT...!?!?!?!

xo
-chopkins

#77. Posted by: chopkins at May 16, 2008 12:14 PM

Couple of things...

1. Does "the Temple" count as a station? Didn't see that on the list.

2. Finale starts at 9 pm on the 29th, not 10 pm as it is listed at the bottom.

#78. Posted by: DaveVT at May 16, 2008 12:16 PM

So I haven't read anything yet... but I must say... the episode was AMAZING.

This was an episode of answers. Now I'm wondering how amazing part 2 will be. AH.

Okay, I need to read now.

#79. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 16, 2008 12:18 PM

→ 62. Posted by: Pete at May 16, 2008 11:11 AM:

"Could they be trying to move the Island in time rather than location?"

Hey Pete i was thinking the same thing. Makes a lot more sense then physically moving it. And I love your timing: 11:11

#80. Posted by: PAG at May 16, 2008 12:19 PM

@76: Couldn't one have died in the water before reaching the island?

#81. Posted by: DaveVT at May 16, 2008 12:24 PM

@ 5 Morbid0 (and everyone else who commented on this): the scond person responsible for Jin's death, my guesses are either Ben (obv.) or Michael.

Maybe Sun's other Person is Jack, or Locke, whoever happens to kill Keamy which will set off the freighter explosives because that is probably what will kill Jin,
if he's even dead,
if you can even die on this island,
if its even an island,
if non-islands have the power to save or kill people,
if the islanders are even the dead ones, maybe the O/06 are the dead ones, if there even is an oceanic 06.. AHHH!!! Stop me !!

#82. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 16, 2008 12:25 PM

A couple of quick thoughts.

1) like someone above, I've been wondering if by "moving the island" they are talking about time rather than location.

2) was it a continuity error or was there another person (who looked a lot like goodspeed) on the boat next to jin. we saw him next to jin as sun got off but when jin got off right after her, he wasn't there.

3) are widmore and paik allies or enemies?

4) ben wasn't really raised by his parents, Locke wasn't raised by his parents, Walt wasn't raised by his parents, Aaron isn't being raised by his parents. connection?

5) why was the co-pilot so freaked out about the cargo? come to think of it, would that plane really make a trip that far?

#83. Posted by: PZ at May 16, 2008 12:26 PM

@49 DB speculated:

>Cecil Rose,
>My guess is that the crime would be 234 counts of defacing a corpse.

And this, which took place in Thailand, is under UK jurisdiction a crime, how?

<><><><><><><><>

@61 tiffani intuited:

>i think charlette and ole' danny boy will be the two survivors that were lost at sea. dont know why, i just do.

But they weren’t on 815.

>peace&love to all

Are you with Dharma?

<><><><><><><><>

@63 welh cinematized:

>The on-island events gave me the feeling of a dark version of It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World.

So... The Orchid would be the big “W”?

And Jacob is Spencer Tracy?
Or is he Jimmy Durante?

>The crazy Three Amigos arrive near the Orchid station...

Will Randy Newman be the singing bush again?
Can I be the invisible swordsman?


<><><><><><><><>

64 PiecesofArzt gumshoed:

>Widmore Crimes: theft, destruction of private property, desecration of a corpse (234 counts apiece)

None of them occurring in Great Britain. Who arrests him and how?

<><><><><><><><>

@68 bcre8ve geneotyped:

>108 day's later, she's [Clair’s mom] crashing funerals, neglecting grandkids, and dropping bombs on newly found step sons.

Can’t be a step-mom if never married to dad. Is there a word of “mother of your half-sister”?

<><><><><><><><>

@69 chopkins caterwauled:

>Agreed. This show is dangerously close to jumping the shark. I cant tell if it's brilliant, or just f*&$ing with us or what. I agree with those who've said there is no real suspense since the flash-forwards, since we know ultimately who "lives."

I think they’ve created plenty of suspense, leaving us wondering:

1) What happens to the rest of the Losties, not to mention Others and Freighties we’ve come to care about?

2) Why do the O6 have to lie?

3) How does the island appear to keep interacting with their off-island lives? and

4) What do they end up doing about it?

<><><><><><><><>

@70 dharma boy Roswelled:

>... and did the scene with the view from inside the Coast Guard transport (as the cargo bay opened) remind anybody of the climatic scene from "Close Encounters"?

The opening of the C-130 cargo ramp was a little bogus. They’ve got a nice passenger door right behind the cockpit, complete with steps.

#84. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 12:28 PM

@62/Pete "Could they be trying to move the Island in time rather than location?"

That would certainly explain why the show is still on ABC next week but starts at at 9 pm instead of the regular 10 pm (As pointed out by DaveVT @78.)

[8^)

#85. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 16, 2008 12:31 PM

Nagging question for the boaters out there:

The freighter pilot did not want to move the ship because the depth finder was being scrambled by a transmission (which is getting to be a convenient excuse). How can a sonar signal underwater get jammed from a transmission above water on the ship?

Also, is not the freighter anchored many miles from the island. Aren't reefs confined to a few hundred yards off shore of an island?

#86. Posted by: welh at May 16, 2008 12:36 PM

Ugh... School sucks. Class is almost over. I won't be able to finish =[

Then I'll have to catch up on a BAGILLION posts. Whatever, I love it.

So what are we going to do with our lives after the finale??? I know we're going to continue analyzing it... but I doubt many people are going to check this every day. =[

I'll miss all of you.

#87. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 16, 2008 12:37 PM

Sorry - dunmb question, whats 'jumping the shark?"

#88. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 16, 2008 12:39 PM

I'm still anxious to see how Mr. Paik will influence all of this.

I'm not sure if anyone said this already... but...

Sun didn't seem happy to see her parents.

If Paik is "responsible" for Jin's death, does that mean that it's because they were trying to "escape" him, or because he had something to do with the crash.

Sorry for the bad English. No time to edit!

#89. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 16, 2008 12:41 PM

This is a frivolous post that exists only to make ilovebenjaminlinusxx have to read a BAGILLION + 1 posts instead of the BAGILLION she referenced in post #87.

#90. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 16, 2008 12:44 PM

Sigh...

After watching last night's epi and reading all of your posts, I've come to realize...it's going to be a LONG 2 weeks.

:(

#91. Posted by: Keluha at May 16, 2008 12:49 PM

And that double post wasnt suppose to happen! Sorry! I got the IE error the first time!

Shame on me...pls lock me up with Sawyer in the bear cage.

#92. Posted by: keluha at May 16, 2008 12:53 PM

@85 bcre8ve mistook:

@62/Pete "Could they be trying to move the Island in time rather than location?"

That would certainly explain why the show is still on ABC next week but starts at at 9 pm instead of the regular 10 pm (As pointed out by DaveVT @78.)

Next week the entire two hours is taken up by the Grey’s Anatomy finale. Lost’s two-parter finale will be ion TWO weeks at 9 PM (8 Central) - May 29.
<><><><><><><><>

Speaking of DaveVT @78,

Dave, are you:

1) From Vermont?
2) Attending Virginia Tech?
4) Neither?

(VT class of ’68 and coming up on my 40th reunion here)

<><><><><><><><>

@87 ilovebenjaminlinusxx bemoaned:

>So what are we going to do with our lives after the finale??? I know we're going to continue analyzing it... but I doubt many people are going to check this every day. =[

>I'll miss all of you.

So don’t leave. Last year we managed to keep up sustained conversations, both about Lost and other things, in the /r/a/n/s/o/m/ random topic area.

<><><><><><><><>

@88 JaneSweetz quizzed:

Sorry - dumb question, what’s “jumping the shark?"

Not dumb at all. It refers to an episode of “Happy Days” when Fonzie, water-skiing complete with leather jacket, jumped over a shark. Fans marked it as the beginning of the end of the decent “Happy Days” scripts.

By extension nowadays it refers to the episode that marks the beginning of a series’ decline. I personally think the writer/producers of “Lost”, like J. Michael Straczynski’s earlier example with Babylon 5, will manage to avoid any ‘shark-jumping’ by establishing early on an end to the series and it’s story arc.

#93. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 12:56 PM

93/keluha

That's OK. It gives us more to read during the hiatus.

#94. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 16, 2008 12:57 PM

******MILD SPOILER **************

Here is ABC's official summary of next week, complete with who is guest starring, which is very interesting. Folks we haven't seen in a while inclue WALT, MICHAEL'S MOM, DR. CANDLE and PENNY. Oh, and who the heck is HENRIK?

"The face-off between the survivors and the freighter people continues, and the Oceanic Six find themselves closer to rescue. Guest starring are Jeremy Davies as Daniel Faraday, Ken Leung as Miles Straume, Rebecca Mader as Charlotte Lewis, Jeff Fahey as Frank Lapidus, L. Scott Caldwell as Rose, Malcolm David Kelley as Walt, Nestor Carbonell as Richard Alpert, John Terry as Christian Shephard, Sonya Walger as Penelope "Penny" Widmore, Alan Dale as Charles Widmore, Kevin Durand as Keamy, Francois Chau as Dr. Marvin Candle, Anthony Azizi as Omar, Alex Petrovitch as Henrik and Starletta DuPois as Michael's mom." Source: ABC

#95. Posted by: GatorGal at May 16, 2008 12:58 PM

I'm Virginia Tech class of '04. LOST and VT sports are my two passions. :)

#96. Posted by: DaveVT at May 16, 2008 1:01 PM

@94: I'm Virginia Tech class of '04. LOST and VT sports are my two passions. :)

#97. Posted by: DaveVT at May 16, 2008 1:02 PM

GRAA, Mac. Will miss you next time, but have faith in vacc to step up.

For me, the most disturbing thing about Kate's "pregnancy" (thus Claire's) is why a plane crash wouldn't cause a miscarriage!

My favorite line, when everyone is looking at the tracking phone: Sun says, "Can't we just call??" Duh.

I haven't done the math, but the press conference mentions day 103 and day 108. Does that fit with "our" already-established timeline?

Does the "photo by a local fisherman" reveal anything?

Why don't the reporters ask who the other 2 survivors were??

What's up with the box that Ben dug up? A mirror, binocs and .... saltines?

As NOTLOST posted: who the heck WERE all those other no-names on the beach? And why take a couple of them on the first wave to the freighter??

Also, the Zodiac seems capable of zipping back and forth with no problem "time-wise".

The writers have claimed that the numbers aren't really that significant (or something like that), but they keep showing up rather prominently.

Another favorite line: Sawyer to Jack, "Did you cut yourself shaving?"

Was Hurley carrying a bag from Mr. Cluck's Chicken Shack?? I couldn't read the entire logo.

Re: Hurley's party. First the coconut. Then the statue. Then the island theme. The only thing missing: Smokey. (Maybe he was in the BBQ grill.)

Grammar correction to Locke when he asks Ben about the person on the other end of the mirror signal: It's "With whom", John, not "With who".

Do you think Sun finds out that Paik Industries is connected to Widmore and that's the REAL reason for her investment?

As always, more q's than a's. And while this show was not as engaging as other eps, I'm still hooked and love it.

It's gonna be a looooooonnnnggg two weeks. Thanks, Mac, for giving us a place to go during that time. We're LOST with you, but we'd be lost without you!

#98. Posted by: lovelost at May 16, 2008 1:10 PM

More on jumping the shark:

You can see a clip of the actual Fonzie shark-hump here:

http://tinyurl.com/f66b7

You can see a list of shows and when they jumped the shark here:

http://tinyurl.com/2somny

And you can see some fans opinion on Lost and shark-jumping here:

http://tinyurl.com/5x32eg

(The vote is about 2-1 “Never Jumped”)

#99. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 1:12 PM

Whoops....

Make that "Fonzie shark-jump"

h/j next to each other on the keyboard, don't you know.

#100. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 1:14 PM

I tend to agree with the weakness of Sun buying a controlling share in Daddy's company. Daddy is such a gangster, it's a bit surprising that it is even publicly traded. And no matter how big the settlement was, it surely wasn't enough to buy a controlling interest. She was still pregnant in that scene, so it wasn't long after "rescue" Could Hurley's unwanted fortune helped? Though I doubt if Hurley would have wanted to do damage to Sun with his misfortunate fortune. Could there be a Widmore connection here?

I am hoping the writers know what they are doing and that they have a staff who worries only about continuity.

Granted, there is some element of interest in how these widely separated people come together to be rescued, but the greater mystery is how someone, probably Widmore, got them all to go along with the big lie. It couldn't be money as Hurley has more than enough and the rest don't seem to be the venal sort. More likely is the possible threat to those who survived or whom the six think survived after their departure. How much time did they have for the persuasion. Enough to buy Sayid and Jack matching suits?

#101. Posted by: August Paul at May 16, 2008 1:18 PM

"Sun says Jin died when the plane crashed."

Didn't Sun say that Jin did survive the plane crash?

#102. Posted by: Blinkard Philistine at May 16, 2008 1:21 PM

Did anyone else notice this in the first scene: when looking out of the front windshield of the military plane, you get the feeling that the plane is moving in reverse because the clouds are getting smaller and smaller, even though the plane must be moving forward...watch it again and let me know what you think.

#103. Posted by: islandlurker at May 16, 2008 1:24 PM

Long time reader first post.

@ Mister grimm

@ DRivera 43

Remember last week when the Captain was pointing a gun at Keamy after he kill the Doctor. Keamy told the captain, you can't kill me cause I have this, (pointing to the device on his arm) and shot the captain.

I agree Keamy dies , freither goes Kaboom!!


#104. Posted by: GGG at May 16, 2008 1:25 PM

The reunion/kiss between Sayid and Nadia looked kind of awkward.

#105. Posted by: Serendipity at May 16, 2008 1:33 PM

Faraday's notes say "Space like factors" and "Possible!" wow, can we expect a legitimate scientific explanation.

Expected Shambala to play when Hurley started the camero

Genghis

Good luck Vacc

#106. Posted by: CC Boston at May 16, 2008 1:35 PM

Sun and group didn't get a penny from Airline. Widmore payed them off to keep quiet and never mention the island. Widmore must have given them a lot of cash so that they would co-operate and not sell their story to the lifetime station.

#107. Posted by: alex at May 16, 2008 1:36 PM

Forgive me if someone else has already brought this up, but what I don't get is how can that little Zodiac make it back and forth from the freighter so quickly? Isn't the freighter supposed to be 40 miles off the coast of the island? If that's the case, then it's already travelled 120 miles. How can it carry enough gas?

#108. Posted by: RAW at May 16, 2008 1:38 PM

Alex, don't take this the wrong way, but your post made me laugh. It's not the content -- your point about Widmore is just as valid as anything else -- but I always crack up when people swoop in with "definitive" statements about "Lost."

After four seasons, the only thing I'm sure of is that nothing on this show is definitive.

#109. Posted by: mac at May 16, 2008 1:41 PM

@95, GatorGal

Henrik is one of the Portuguese men in Penny's listening station.

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Henrik

#110. Posted by: Heather at May 16, 2008 1:42 PM

I am never going to get caught up this week - over 100 comments already, and I haven't even watched the show yet. Just knowing this review is here is KILLING me!!!

#111. Posted by: meg at May 16, 2008 1:45 PM

Cecil Rose said,
"Can’t be a step-mom if never married to dad. Is there a word of “mother of your half-sister”?"

In my family we use the term
"mother un-law" for my relationship to my partner's daughter in law. It is appropriate for use in this situation too.
______________

lovelost said:
"Another favorite line: Sawyer to Jack, "Did you cut yourself shaving?"

Hilarous! I missed that completely.

#112. Posted by: undaunted at May 16, 2008 1:53 PM

@99 Cecil Rose:
"actual Fonzie shark-hump here:"
The vision of Fonzie mating with a shark just makes me laugh.

Thank You, I really need that.

I have been away for awhile, busy with real life stuff, but have always read the reviews, some of the comments. I have read all of today's at least. Keep it coming.

I can't believe that I am the first to say, "MIF!"

GRAA, Mac.

#113. Posted by: onelostdude at May 16, 2008 1:57 PM

@99. lovelost noticed:

>What's up with the box that Ben dug up? A mirror, binocs and .... saltines?

Pretty clearly survival stuff, though why it’s located where it is is a mystery.

That mirror, if you look close, has a transparent “X” in the center of it. The back side is also mirrored in the middle. You look though that “X” from the back, then look at the target through the “X”, stand so that the sunlight falls though the "X" and makes an illuminated “X” on your cheek, then move the mirror until the reflection of the “X” on your cheek lines up with the actual “X” in the mirror, and the mirror is aligned to reflect sunlight to your target. It’s easier than it sounds.

It was standard Air Force survival kit issue some years ago, though it’s been supplanted by an improved model without an “X” that’s half-silvered in the center and creates a bright spot in the image you see looking though the half-silvered portion. Lay that bright spot over the target and you’re flashing it. Even easier and more intuitive.

<><><><><><><><>

@104 islandlurker observed:

>Did anyone else notice this in the first scene: when looking out of the front windshield of the military plane, you get the feeling that the plane is moving in reverse because the clouds are getting smaller and smaller, even though the plane must be moving forward...watch it again and let me know what you think.

That’s the effect of a telephoto lens zooming out (wider, less magnification, wider field of view).

Directors have been known to use that effect in dolly shots by tracking the dolly toward the character or scene being focused on while zooming out, resulting in the character in the center of focus staying the same size, while the surroundings seem to shrink away, thus heightening our attention to the central scene.

<><><><><><><><>

@105 GGG recalled:

>Remember last week when the Captain was pointing a gun at Keamy after he killed the Doctor. Keamy told the captain, you can't kill me cause I have this, (pointing to the device on his arm) and shot the captain.

>I agree Keamy dies , freighter goes Kaboom!!

The thing that bothered me about that scene is the Captain has to know what the device is and what it does for it to be credible, and clearly the Captain doesn’t.

#114. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 2:00 PM

I hope Locke is able to move the island to 9:00 Eastern...8:00 would be even better.

#115. Posted by: lostsox at May 16, 2008 2:03 PM

The Sun-Mr. Paik scene reinforced my feeling that Jin is not dead, though neither is he on the island. I think he may have slipped off the freighter(when it explodes?) but drifts off into the wrong heading and ends up in the past, possibly setting up assistance to Sun's take-over.

#116. Posted by: Lost Indeed at May 16, 2008 2:04 PM

I tried to get this into last week's mind boggler (this week's episode was just crowded) but missed the cutoff time.

I have been thinking lately that the island and everything else are perfectly in sync. What seems to be strange is the result of a communication problem with the island. Lets posit that light had difficulties penetrating whatever it is that surrounds the island. Whether it be visible light or radio, if the speed of light slows down by passing through the event cone of a black hole from some other part of the universe or Alice's looking glass or the emerald palace or whatever, then what appears to be time travel is just signal delay in one direction or another.

Why did Daniel say "This is not good" when he discovered the synchrony problem.

I still think the best way to think about lost is the way we think about the Odyssey. We suspend a need for rational explanations and enjoy the show for its insights into human nature and the grand themes of story telling, love, adventure, mystery, and revenge.

#117. Posted by: August Paul at May 16, 2008 2:05 PM

further to the post regarding: how you can buy a company with the money given during a crash?

I am under the assumption that not only can Sun use her money (and pool the money from the other 5) for the leverage to buy her dads company, but that Ben's minions has money and gives it to Sun. Ben then uses this as leverage on Sun for some yet to be seen reason. This will give ben and the gang assests equal to widmore.

shot in the dark.

Faraday is a liar - so is big red.

I got a strange vibe from Clair's mom.

later

c

#118. Posted by: lostatwork at May 16, 2008 2:05 PM

so, the saltines were 15 years old. Is that the last time the survival kit/mirror signaling were used? Anything of importance happen 15 years ago in our Lost timeline? Does it perchance coincide with the purge?

Somebody help me out here. I don't expect to be "on to" something; every theory I ever throw out is immediately shot down. (My brain seems to be slowing down with age. Hard to keep up, dontcha know.) I don't mind, though. I have real-life stuff to worry about; Lost is merely a pleasant diversion . . .

#119. Posted by: dharma anne at May 16, 2008 2:08 PM

@lostsox / #115: Amen to that.

#120. Posted by: mac at May 16, 2008 2:28 PM

That whole thing with Sun buying up a controlling interest in her dad's corporation seemed to come from completely out of the blue...

→ 36. Posted by: LostedIt

I didn't find that so left field. Lots of movies refer to the adult child buying dad's company and ruining him. I suppose it is the modern version of Oedipus.

I think Faraday is going to figure large in the coming eps. Recall that when he was helping Des, Faraday wrote in his notebook that Des was his constant (the way Penny was Des's) in the event he started Quantum Leaping.

Sawyer is apparently back on his game, *Genghis*. *New Otherton* I cracked up.

For those of you, like Deep Cover, who feel that its *game over* because of the future flashes. I would suggest you sit tight. I felt that way initially, but now anticipate a giant shift. After all, if we know everything and the producers are just working out the final details, the show would be done in a few weeks. There is no way they could stretch this out for another two seasons.

#121. Posted by: boharpe at May 16, 2008 2:49 PM

~So has it been established which order the "flash forwards" occur? I haven't wanted to believe it, but I'm thinking that the first one (with crazy bearded Jack) was the furthest and each one gets closer and closer back to the rescue and/or island events (which we'll see next week). I hate that, though, because it made me so sad last season to see Jack so tormented (not that I particularly like Jack, but it would be nice to see a "happily ever after" ending for everyone).

~After Sawyer handed off Aaron to Kate and then Kate to Sun, I kept thinking, "Okay, now how do they plan on feeding that baby?" It drove me nuts.

~Why would Keamy need to blow up the boat if he gets killed? To ensure no survivors get off? That puzzles me. And I know there are several of you who think Keamy is hot...but ew, ew, ew! He's so repulsive. *shudder*

~I thought the reunions were touching, but sad when Sayid and Kate didn't have anyone there at first.

~If the freighter blows up, then how do Sun and Aaron get off (which we know they do)and why wouldn't Des and Jin and Michael get off, too, and then also get rescued?

~I was wondering, too, who all the other people were that were getting off the island and on the the freighter and how they are going to explain them away.

~My husband started to doze off during the funeral scene when Claire's mom approaches Jack. As soon as I heard her accent, I said, "Wake up!" I knew exactly what was coming. I'm glad Jack knows...and now we know that when he's reading the bedtime story to Aaron and trying to be Daddy, and when Hurly says "You're not supposed to raise him", that Jack knew Aaron was his nephew. But it makes me wonder why Jack didn't want to see him at all around the time of Kate's trial.

~The review mentioned that Jack's dad's memorial took place 10 months later than it was supposed to....why 10 months later? Isn't it more like a few weeks?

#122. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 16, 2008 2:49 PM

Thanks mac, great review as always! We'll miss you in two weeks but will look forward to vacc's review & your comments.

Just a few observations:

Charlotte is an idiot. And a bitch.

Danny is enjoying his "heroic" role.

Saltines are bad enough when fresh.

Anyone else notice Sawyer's reference to Bensylvania as "New Otherton"? Funny...

The whole island-as-sentient-being is getting more annoying each episode. It was a stretch when Tom first brought it up, & now it seems to be a convenient out whenever TPTB want to manufacture an excuse for someone to not get killed. Are we supposed to assume that the island wanted Alex, Danielle, etc., to be killed, then? Or was it off-duty & missed its cue to wipe out Keamy's team's guns?

I'm not an economist & don't know much about the process of buying a controlling interest in a company, but I thought it was rather unrealistic to make a plot point of Sun buying a controlling interest in her father's company. However, it was *very* satisfying in terms of sticking it to Mr. Paik. Sun is more her father's daughter than perhaps she'd like to admit.

The whole Kate-Aaron storyline teeters extremely close to total implausibility...but unfortunately most of Kate's storyline over these four years has done the same. I think she could have been a lot more interesting character w/better backstory explanations & continuity.

As far as it being Claire's mom who shows up at Christian's memorial service & spills the beans to Jack, I think it would have been more realistic for it to have been Claire's aunt. As occam (#30) & others have mentioned, Claire's mom seemed to be in a permanent vegetative state.

Loved Ben's instructions to Locke, especially the part about which plant to look behind. Does Locke know his botany as well as Ben obviously does?

→ 8. Clementine: "Sayid and Nadia are running a close second to Des and Penny in my awesome love story rankings":

Agreed...if someone looked at me the way Sayid looked at Nadia I think I'd turn into a puddle of melted butter. Hopefully Des & Penny's final outcome is better than Sayid & Nadia's. : (

→ 25. Speedmaster: The Numbers in Hurley's car:

Poor Hurley. Those numbers seem to be haunting him more than anyone else on the show...actually, do the Numbers show up in anyone else's backstory, or is it just Hurley's? If it is just Hurley who's pursued by the Numbers, why him? Have we considered the possibility that Hurley's hallucinating & seeing the Numbers in places that they're not?

→ 68. bcre8ve: "DOCTOR: Why are you giving me this patient's chart? She's been in a comma for months":

I think "ellipsis" works better than "comma" in this case... ; >

→ 76. BluSerene: Simple arithmetic:

Nice catch...will we see TPTB address it?

→ 86. welh: The freighter's location, reefs, etc.:

If I remember correctly, the second mate said that w/o the sonar transmission functioning he wouldn't go any closer to the island than five miles.

→ 99. Cecil Rose: Fonzie & shark-humping:

Thanks for the laugh...I won't be able to hear the phrase "shark jumping" ever again w/o thinking of the alternative!

→ 102. Blinkard Philistine: What Sun said about Jin:

She says, after some significant glances w/Jack, that her husband never made it off the plane.

I'm thinking that it was Jack who cut a deal to participate in The Big Lie, assuming that he was speaking for all of the O6.

→ 108. RAW: The Zodiac & its gas-carrying capabilities:

Maybe it's got a Prius hybrid engine in it. ; )

→ 117. August Paul: Enjoying LOST:

I agree. The idea of a rational explanation at this point is pretty unlikely, but I'm still enjoying the ride!

#123. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 16, 2008 2:56 PM

"Hump the Shark" -- Does that have anything to do with Shark Week?

#124. Posted by: mac at May 16, 2008 3:01 PM

@119 dharma anne


The closest thing timline wise that happened near 15 years ago was the arrival of Danielle Rousseau and her crew, which if Sayid was mathematically right on how many times the loop was played on the distress call, then give or take a year, thats the only event I remember.

Going back old school, I haven't done the math myself but, I always wondered if Sayid actually new what he was doing when he said it was on loop for 16 years. He never was to good at anything other than torture ><

#125. Posted by: Dharmaemployee108 at May 16, 2008 3:02 PM

I'm not sure if this is obvious or not but here goes. Going back to Ben's midnight visit to Widmore's penthouse. Didn't Ben tell Widmore, "You'll never find it." ? Well Ben already knows that Widmore has found the island & sent Keamy & Co., so what is the "it" that Widmore will never find???

#126. Posted by: cookieman at May 16, 2008 3:16 PM

re: "New Otherton"

That's what the writers have been calling it, but iirc that's the first use of it in the show.

Personally, I like "Bennsylvania" or "Losteria Lane" better.

#127. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 3:26 PM

@notsoeasy

I actually thought it was pretty believable that Jack wouldn't want anything to do with Aaron, at least at first. Aaron is basically a living reminder that his dad cheated on his mom. Something like that would probably take a little while to get over.

I do wonder why Keamy and his crew would want to blow up the freighter though. How are they planning to get home without it? That copter can't travel that far, can it? Was it actually established that it was Keamy that rigged the freighter?

#128. Posted by: Drea at May 16, 2008 3:26 PM

@ # 126
The way I'm interpreting that is that Keamy & crew found it temporarily, but not for good. Widmore must not have taken control of it like he wants to. In other words, Keamy must fail.

#129. Posted by: RAW at May 16, 2008 3:28 PM

So are all these people supposed to be all over the place now. On the freighter, on the island on the heli etc... I sure hope that locke doesn't "move" the island and they all find themselves back on the island again due to a time shift.

Also since the Heli hit a massive storm and turbulence when heading to the island, shouldn't the zodiac boat also hit some sort of storm heading in and out of the island? What about the timeshifts? Is sayid landing on the island in the future? Is sayid still on the freighter?

#130. Posted by: alex at May 16, 2008 3:30 PM

@128. I think if the device on keamy goes off if his heart beat stops then that means he's dead so they'd want to destroy the freighter and any evidence that they were out there.

#131. Posted by: alex at May 16, 2008 3:32 PM

I wish my truck got the kind of gas mileage that Sayid's inflatable boat gets!

#132. Posted by: Maxlife at May 16, 2008 3:44 PM

@128 and 131:
Also as a guarantee that the freighter wont leave Keamy and his goons behind.

#133. Posted by: Apollo at May 16, 2008 3:47 PM

About the mirror flashing, I'm thinking it was Ben sending a distress call to Alpert, since temples are often built high up in the mountains and I think Ben and Alpert are ostensibly still on the same "team." The message could be signaling Alpert and crew to go to the Orchid station. This wouldn't be the first time Ben has allowed himself to be captured while already having a plan in place for his rescue.

About the freighter bomb, it doesn't make sense to me that Keamy is behind it. He's a mercenary and I have to assume he wants to survive, so blowing up the freighter could potentially strand him on the island. Why would he do that? Second, what protection does that provide him against Ben and his crew? Ben would be happy to blow up the freighter. It's gotta be someone else who set the bomb.

But as always, it's just conjecture...

#134. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 16, 2008 3:49 PM

I'm stuck on a plane. 2 hour delay and it's bitter sweet b/c I'm going to miss my dinner reservations for tonight, BUT I get free drinks and get to read the Lost blog.Jacob bless my crackberry!

So, I don't get why Keamey would want to blow up the freighter. who would that benefit? The more merc and crew who die, the more questions their families will have about what happened to them.shouldn't they try to be on the down low considering all the crimes they're commiting and the fact that the island is a secret. also if there's one thing I know about international waters it's that gambeling is legal among other things...different laws apply (that was 4 u cecil).

Really looking forward to Vacc's review as his past posts and articles have been awesome. No pressure or anything ;)

#135. Posted by: Skipper at May 16, 2008 3:55 PM

I am new here, but just wanted to say that this recap was so witty and well written, and just what the doctor ordered. I laughed out loud so many times and I really needed a laugh today. But I do want to add that while being humorous, it made so many excellent points and provided an amazing recap. Thank you so much, and I am sorry that you noted that this was your last recap for the season. I would love to have read more from you. You are very talented. Thanks again.

#136. Posted by: sawyerishot at May 16, 2008 4:09 PM

Your best line (and it was hard because there were so many)...

"Keamy digs the barrel of his gun into Ben's forehead (inadvertently activating Ben's buggy-eye G-spot ... whoops)"

Second best - Brain matter erupts from a fissure in Jack's forehead.

Great stuff.

#137. Posted by: sawyerishot at May 16, 2008 4:12 PM

..one more accolade...because I was so entertained by your writing --

"I needed a freighter phone just to keep track of all the moving dots."

Really fuuny stuff...thanks again!

#138. Posted by: sawyerishot at May 16, 2008 4:16 PM

One other thing that's been bugging me since the flash forward about Kate's trial. Where is her dad????!!????

Especially if they were landing on a military base, why wouldn't he be there? He wouldn't have to be mushy, but he could be there looking on.

#139. Posted by: DB at May 16, 2008 4:20 PM

Yo Mac, thanks again for another entertaining review.

Yo Vacc...no pressure Bruthuh- just be yourself. No one expects you to be a Mac-clone, and I'm looking forward to your interpretation of the finale...and to Mac's inevitable more-than-usual comment posts!

ilblxoxo...I thought Sun seemed very happy to see her mom, but not so much her dad. Also...I tried really hard to have Jack's breathing bother me in this episode. But I didn't notice any weird breathing except when he was out of breath, which is forgivable. Are you sure it's not all in your head?

→ 28. Posted by: taylor0822
"While I was thrilled to see that Claire's mom had conquered the coma, I thought that was the lamest possible way to reveal the Jack/Claire connection."

Can you think of a less-lame way for it to have been revealed? Because I didn't think it was lame at all. I thought it was perfect. And Jack's reaction was priceless...actually pretty good Matthew Fox acting. I'm so glad one of them finally knows. Chances are that (high as a kite) Claire also knows now, as ghost Dr. Daddy wouldn't keep that info from her.

I agree with those of you saying that if the numbers aren't going to be 'explained' in any significant way, then they need to quit being so prominent in Hurley's life.

OK, so Aaron can't nurse from Claire anymore once she goes off galavanting with Dr. Daddy. It's feasible that Aaron could survive with no nutrition from the time Sawyer found him to the time the O6 were 'rescued' (by Jeff Probst...brilliant Mac!) on the island of Sumba. Then he could've immediately been fed formula, water, or even cow's milk from a bottle and been fine from then on. There probably was very little time from when Aaron arrived on the freighter with Sun to when he arrived on Sumba, as we shall soon see.

I agree that the future flashes have made some of these scenes a bit anti-climactic. We know Ben survives the Keamy encounter for example, so it takes some tension away. Don't get me wrong...I can't wait to see how it plays out, but I really hope that the future-flash with Jack shouting "We have to go back!" to Kate is the farthest we'll see into the future...as far as future flashes go. Then I hope that real time catches up with that future-flash so we really don't know what's coming next by the end of the series.

#140. Posted by: JoePike at May 16, 2008 4:25 PM

@ 134/ Scooby-Dude

And something more obvious: the people on the boat just found out now that there is a whole room wired with explosives? Wouldn't the crew have noticed that before now?

Ben already had his bomb on board with Michael's cargo.
Was Widmore's plan that the mercenaries and the crew were on a suicide mission, one way or another?

#141. Posted by: welh at May 16, 2008 4:27 PM

-sawyerishot... you should definitely check out Mac's review archives from this and past seasons. Very entertaining and well worth the reads. Glad you found this site...you won't be sorry!

#142. Posted by: JoePike at May 16, 2008 4:32 PM

How did Farraday come to have a correctly-named sketch of the Orchid station in his journal?

I think this is a significant question. Farraday's story is clearly not done by a long shot. As the resident physicist-studying space/time anomalies and paradigms on perception, Daniel I suspect will be in some future flashes.

Among the parallels is Richard Alpert and Matthew Abbadon.
Richard Alpert bothers me. He is ageless, as Abbadon appears to be. Many people seem to think Alpert is a 'good' guy, and Abbadon as the 'bad' guy. I see him as one of the 'bad' guys. He finds a way to manipulate Ben's dad to get him on the island. Once there, he manipulates Ben into killing off the Dharma folks. Richard was influential in getting Juliet to the island when her husband gets hit by the bus. Ben tries to get Locke to kill his father, but it is Richard who peruades Locke to use Sawyer's connection to kill the elder con man. Also, when Richard tests Locke in the backstory, does he look disappointed by the 5-yr-old Locke's choices, or does he look angry/threatened. I think more on the angry side. Locke hasn't exactly made the best choices. Could he be the "chosen one", but simply made a bad choice (choosing the knife over the Book of Laws)? How is that choice (knife = war vs Book = peace?) relevant or significant?

#143. Posted by: gumbo at May 16, 2008 4:32 PM

@ 139 / DB

What about Kate's husband, Kevin, the Florida policeman? I don't recall them getting a divorce before she fled to Australia.
Kate looked like she expected some one to meet her at the reunion.

#144. Posted by: welh at May 16, 2008 4:35 PM

Re: Keamy and the Hear Monitor.

I think it would be obvious that Keamy set the explosives as a failsafe. He seems to be the type of person who if he doesn't make it, no one does.

I orignally thought the heart monitor was hooked up to a portable nuke to destroy the island if he fails/dies. But seeing all the C-4 on the freighter, the heart monitor makes a lot more sense.

Someone mentioned that last episode the heart monitor didn't work because the captain didn't know what it was. I think the captain realized what it was, which is why he didn't try to shoot Keamy. I think the captain's "What is that?" was more of a "What are you planning?"

It's pretty obvious that Keamy is Widmore's boy through and through and will do anything to accomplish his mission.

#145. Posted by: J. Paul at May 16, 2008 4:39 PM

@136 sawyerishot chimed in:

>Thank you so much, and I am sorry that you noted that this was your last recap for the season. I would love to have read more from you. You are very talented. Thanks again.

(sawyerishot) You shot Sawyer?

Don't be sad. There's four whole seasons of back gems of mac's writing you have to peruse while waiting until February.

Start here:

http://tinyurl.com/54w9g6

And welcome to the communuity, by the way.

#146. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 4:42 PM

Here's how I think it was possible for Sun to buy a controlling interest in the company - she already had a significant stake in the company to begin with.

I don't think it's unrealistic that a percentage of shares of Paik's company could already have been in Sun's name - perhaps as a way for Paik to safeguard his own interests - maybe he reaps a benefit for owning fewer shares on paper, while still maintaining control over all of those shares.

For any outsider to gain a controlling stake they would need to accumulate more shares than the combined shares of Paik and Sun - and if together they own more than 50%, it couldn't be done.

The only one who could is Sun.

Assuming Dad owned 30% of the company and another 25% was in Sun's name then together they have 55%. Sun would need to buy another 5 1/2% stake in the company - 12% of the outstanding shares to own more than Dad.

At this point Sun would still need to have more capital or financial backing than her dad - because with 39% of the company in outstanding shares he could simply increase his own stake until Sun ran out of money.

So even if the company were worth 1Billion dollars, Sun could probably manipulate major shareholders to back her in a takeover bid is she already owned nearly as many shares as Mr Paik.

#147. Posted by: vacc at May 16, 2008 4:44 PM

Keamy so dreamy
But some ken for Ben
Yet the question remains
Are they good or bad men?

#148. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 16, 2008 4:45 PM

@99/lovelost "What's up with the box that Ben dug up? A mirror, binocs and .... saltines?"

A tried and true method of communicating over long distances long before modern equipment was to spread sentries out over long distances but just within line of vision of at least one, probably two others. So for point A to communicate with point C which might be on the other side of a mountain, they first communicate with point B on top of the mountain who in turn communicates to point C.

The Chinese used this method effectively along the Great Wall of China. It can be surprisingly fast.

I mention this to submit that the Others may have stashes of mirrors and stale crackers placed at stretegic intervals all around the island.

#149. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 16, 2008 4:46 PM

118/lostatwork "...not only can Sun use her money (and pool the money from the other 5) for the leverage to buy her dads company, but..."

Could be that Hurley threw his lottery winnings in. Afterall, he didn't want it and he and Sun seemed pretty buddy, buddy after she gave birth.

#150. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 16, 2008 4:51 PM

Sun is definitely a force to be reckoned with.
I think they should do her entire backstory in Anime like the story of O- Ren Ishii in Kill Bill part 1. (tinyurl.com/68fech )

#151. Posted by: vacc at May 16, 2008 4:54 PM

@150 bcre8ve guessed:

>Could be that Hurley threw his lottery winnings in. After all, he didn't want it and he and Sun seemed pretty buddy, buddy after she gave birth.

But he pretty much said in the ep he gave it to mom and dad.

#152. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 4:56 PM

123/Alaïs_Longthought "8. bcre8ve: "DOCTOR: Why are you giving me this patient's chart? She's been in a comma for months":

I think "ellipsis" works better than "comma" in this case..."

I have to disagree. I should have gone with colon. That way...

NURSE: Doctor, is she still in her colon?
DOCTOR: No, she's coming out of it. I guess you could say she's in a semi-colon.

But really, good catch. That's why they make me work with an editor. If spell check doesn't catch it then I am in trouble.

#153. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 16, 2008 4:58 PM

So I'm finally getting around to commenting on this episode, after watching it a couple times and reading Mac's review (great, as always), as well as the following comments. Here are some random thoughts:

First of all, I thought that the future flashes after the initial landing/press conference were intentionally meant to parody soap operas. Sun taking over her dad's company: Extremely Soapy. Jack finding out that Claire is(was?) his long lost sister via her mother who miraculously has recovered from her coma: Soapiness factor of 9.5. Maybe not so much the part with Hurley and the surprise party, but whatever.

Now, I don't think the writers would do this unintentionally and just be taking the show in a completely dumb direction... I think their work over the last four seasons consistentally shows that they are brilliant people who are always several steps ahead of us...especially since we know they're working towards a definitive end-date.

The only alternative, then, in my mind, is that Darlton and their cohorts know EXACTLY what they are doing, and when it's all said and done we'll be more than satisfied with the result. I think it's important to see this episode, in particular, very much hour one of the three hour finale and not intended to make much sense as an episode on its own. Anyway that's just my two cents, and I hope Darlton doesn't let us down in two weeks.

Other random observation: What was the co-pilot of the cargo plane holding and saying he "needed it" because the cargo they were carrying was "bad voodoo" or whatever?

#154. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at May 16, 2008 5:02 PM

154/Jin's Flashlight "What was the co-pilot of the cargo plane holding and saying he "needed it" because the cargo they were carrying was "bad voodoo" or whatever?"

A rabbit's foot for good luck.

#155. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 16, 2008 5:10 PM

@95/110
Henrik is one of the Portuguese men in Penny's listening station.
===========
He speaks Portugese, and English too. HENRIK is Scandinavian, Slovic, Germanic in origin, not from Portugal.

Sounds like he is the new Mikhail/Patchie in the Artic.

his motto: There's No Place Like Homer (Alaska).

#156. Posted by: ANON2 at May 16, 2008 5:21 PM

bcre8ve: "In a semi-colon!"

It caught me so off guard that coffee came out my nose...it hurt a little bit.

#157. Posted by: undaunted at May 16, 2008 5:28 PM

On the buried signal box: why bury it 15 years ago? There is no purpose for it.
Dharma was an advanced scientific community - - with communication equipment (including Ben's secret closet) and walkie-talkies.
It's not like the Alpert/Hostiles are anti-technology (and buried the box) since they are running around the island with semi-automatic weapons.

#158. Posted by: welh at May 16, 2008 5:28 PM

To the fellow Lost obsessives who congregate on this blog, this episode had so many implausibilities, plot holes, and "wtf" moments that it tasted exactly like biting into a 15 year old cracker.

Based on the sensational season finale last year, I believe (and hope) we are merely being set up by the writers for the season ending episode. We have been distracted with a dinghy with bottomless fuel reserves, a miraculous Australian coma recovery, and an infant that apparently never gets fed but grows at Barry Bonds-level proportions.

Then in two weeks, with our guard down, we'll get hit right between the eyes with the emotional TKO that Lost has delivered so many times in the past.

BTW, given that Widmore paid for and set up the freighter operation that is threatening to kill everyone and destroy the island, wouldn't he be the "second person" Sun is referring to?

Since it is unlikely they will kill off the entire non-Oceanic 6 cast, it seems this season is a transition one that splits the story arc into two distinct parts- on-island (Locke, Sawyer, etc) and off-island with Ben and the Oceanic 6. The final two seasons would then slowly converge those two arcs back into one again, with the likely final resolution back on the island.

Then again, I could be wrong and the final season could end with the entire cast waking up in bed together with Bob Newhart and Suzanne Pleshette.

#159. Posted by: Mizzed at May 16, 2008 5:49 PM

@welh/158
"It's not like the Alpert/Hostiles are anti-technology (and buried the box) since they are running around the island with semi-automatic weapons."

Yet they dress on-island like homeless hippie refugees from Chuck Manson's commune, rather than in proper gear (which is clearly available to them, and in-use when they appear off-island). Why is that? They no longer have to maintain the "yurt village" ruse anymore (to steal the term Cecil Rose used earlier), so what gives? Does modern clothing offend Jacob or something?

#160. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 5:51 PM

Anybody else notice the "other" person on the plane? When the Oceanic rep goes back to prep the O6 about their arrival, it looks like she nods hello to a person sitting towards the front. Did you see the person? I think I noticed the legs of someone sitting up there. Anyone see this?

If it is someone else, who might it be?

#161. Posted by: Gabriel at May 16, 2008 5:53 PM

bcrea8ve and cecil re: the stash box

→ 158 welh makes my point exactly. But more importantly: why saltines???? Like they would sustain a person for any length of time. Or that they'd even be edible after 15 years! Or even still be there!! Is the box airtight? What about ants or worms or rain?

Maybe that's another reason the Island is so special: there AREN'T any bugs, ants, or usual crawly things, save the occasional deadly spider. (Do I have that right?)

Sorry - nothing cerebral or heady here. These little things just eat away at me. ;-)

#162. Posted by: lovelost at May 16, 2008 5:57 PM

Here's a link which shows the person sitting on the plane as the O6 are being briefed.

http://tinyurl.com/6guq6k

I have no idea who it might be.

#163. Posted by: Gabriel at May 16, 2008 5:57 PM

@Drea/128
"I do wonder why Keamy and his crew would want to blow up the freighter though. How are they planning to get home without it?"

Several people have suggested the device on Keamy's arm will detonate the explosives if he dies, and I agree. I also think there's more to it than just leverage with those left behind though ...

What if the secondary protocol had Keamy leaving the island via the Orchid Station all along? Assuming there's some kind of portal in the basement (perhaps that which Ben used to get to Tunisia later?), when Keamy leaves, boom goes the boat, leaving no traces, or unreliable people behind, to spill the beans about the island later.

Widmore would capture the island, and keep it a secret in this scenario.

#164. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 5:59 PM

@158
On the buried signal box: why bury it 15 years ago? There is no purpose for it. Dharma was an advanced scientific community - - with communication equipment (including Ben's secret closet) and walkie-talkies.
It's not like the Alpert/Hostiles are anti-technology (and buried the box) since they are running around the island with semi-automatic weapons.
===========
It is a last-ditch 'protocol'. All of the comm & electronics could be tracked, traced & triangulated. The 'crackers' were planted 15 years ago, before the Purge. The box could be a century old plant, with different equipment in it over the years. The signal mirror is a relatively 'secure' directional communication device. Ben knew there'd be a lookout at that point on the ridge. He made the correct number of flashes to identify himself as friend - versus foe. nuthin mo'

#165. Posted by: ANON2 at May 16, 2008 6:00 PM

For all those who are saying the show is predictable now, and that the flash-forwards caused you to know everything that is going on, I believe you are very short-sighted. What the heck do you really know? That Jack won't die? Kate and Aaron live happily ever after?

I keep getting an uneasy feeling when I see the flash scenes, because we don't quite know if they are forward, back, present, different timeline, etc. We all have absolutely no proof that anything is what it seems. I think you lack imagination if you think everything will turn out exactly as you believe it will from the flash scenes.

#166. Posted by: boozy at May 16, 2008 6:09 PM

@vacc/147
"So even if the company were worth 1Billion dollars, Sun could probably manipulate major shareholders to back her in a takeover bid is she already owned nearly as many shares as Mr Paik."

As the company I work for recently faced a possible takeover bid, it occurred to me immediately that the board of directors would be involved; in that case, Mr. Paik could hardly be surprised. Not being an i-banker myself, I did a quick wiki search on "hostile takeover" for more info and found this:

>>>
A takeover is considered "hostile" if:

The board rejects the offer, but the bidder continues to pursue it, or
The bidder makes the offer without informing the board beforehand

A hostile takeover can be conducted in several ways. A tender offer can be made where the acquiring company makes a public offer at a fixed price above the current market price. Tender offers are regulated with the Williams Act. An acquiring company can also engage in a proxy fight, whereby it tries to persuade enough shareholders, usually a simple majority, to replace the management with a new one which will approve the takeover. Another method involves quietly purchasing enough stock on the open market, known as a creeping tender offer, to effect a change in management. In all of these ways, management resists the acquisition but it is carried out anyway.

The main consequence of a bid being considered hostile is practical rather than legal. If the board of the target cooperates, the bidder can conduct extensive due diligence into the affairs of the target company. It can find out exactly what it is taking on before it makes a commitment. But a hostile bidder knows about the target only the information that is publicly available, and so takes a greater risk. Also, banks are less willing to back hostile bids with the loans that are usually needed to finance the takeover.
>>>

Not sure what the equivalent corporate laws would be in Korea, but I assume similar. This makes it very hard to believe Sun could've pulled this off as a bad surprise to Mr. Paik.

However, believability seems to be taking a back seat lately.

#167. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 6:10 PM

On who is the bad guy Alpert or Abbadon.

They are both bad and good, the Others were the uber-bad but will be a welcomed partner in fighting the Mercs. Abbadon was a part of the team that sent the mercs to the island, who are ok with killing everyone even babies. But Abbadon sent John Locke to the island.( to put things simply) Like everyone else in this show, its complicated and layered. We thought for a long time Jack was the uber-hero but he has proven to be flawed. Juliet, Ben, Michael all ambiguously good and bad characters.


Now that's entertainment.

#168. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 16, 2008 6:12 PM

Here is another one for you - Ben 'poppin' into Tunisia. FF to Season 5 premiere week... just seconds before he is doing battle with the two horsemen in the desert... we see him doing battle with Team Keamy. He evades them. And squeezes that watermelon fanny of his into the "Orchid" device. Let me think... he showed us his collapsing baton (beatdown stick) and to Locke last night. He may have handed it to him too. So he gets it back from John at some point, sticks it in his Halliwax parka pocket (parts of the Orchid are cold), makes his escape... full circle... he went thru the Orchid quickly so he just didn't know when he would come out, or where for that matter.

#169. Posted by: ANON2 at May 16, 2008 6:15 PM

@Jin's Flashlight/154
"Soapiness factor of 9.5."

Couldn't agree more. I've commented previously on the many cues the writers seem to have taken from the soaps, but this epi takes the cake! Not saying there isn't a place for it, but they need to be very careful ...

Actually, this epi more reminded of an old "Batman" episode (Robin exclaims "Holy conundrum Batman, yet another fine diabolic mess you've gotten us into!" as they dangle over a pool of hungry sharks, facing certain doom ... Could this truly be the end of the dynamic duo? Tune in next time, same bat-time, same bat-channel!) ...

My brother and I used to come up with elaborate schemes they could use to extricate themselves from these apparently impossible situations ... only to be sorely disappointed by the incredibly lame resolution (Batman breathily mutters [quick aside, has Matthew Fox been studying Adam West's voice technique?], "It's a good thing I packed my recently-developed instant-ice pellets in my utility belt, Robin! Now, if I can *just* manage to drop one in the shark tank ... [does so, and water freezes solid just before they drop to the now-safe surface]. Maybe you'll remember this the next time you complain about your science studies!" Robin replies, "Golly Batman, you're right ... I'll never neglect my chemistry homework ever again!"). Yet we always came back for the next episode, same bat-time, same bat-channel!

Holy manipulation, I feel like a tool!

#170. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 6:35 PM

@161 Gabriel observed:

>?Anybody else notice the "other" person on the plane? When the Oceanic rep goes back to prep the O6 about their arrival, it looks like she nods hello to a person sitting towards the front. Did you see the person? I think I noticed the legs of someone sitting up there. Anyone see this?

>If it is someone else, who might it be?

and @163 added:

>http://tinyurl.com/6guq6k

>I have no idea who it might be.

I'll be darned if I can see anyone in that picture, unless that's someone's arm and shulder on the forward right side (we're looking forward) near the light from the window.

That said, C-130's normally carry at least one enlisted crew member in addition to the pilots, and that crew designation is "loadmaster", so perhaps that's who's there, if anyone.


#171. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 6:35 PM

Arghhhhh.....

The Aaron as Kate's baby spin is ultra lame writing, but I guess we saw it coming.

So - In the fake world of Kate's pregnancy, at what point in her backstory did she get pregnant?

Will we have a future episode where her cop ex husband demands that Aaron be tested for paternity?

Also - there will most certainly be an episode with Cassidy tracking Kate down, to try to find info on the fate of Sawyer....

#172. Posted by: shikotee at May 16, 2008 6:39 PM

Very screwed up story the 06ers are telling. They have obviously been coached as to what they can say. Probably some DHARMA people at the press conference since they questioned Kate's pregnancy and the fact that they didn't look like they had been lost on an island, and made reference to "the island." Also, remember Michael was supposed to blow up the freighter. That was his purpose in being there. If and when he does that, possibly Jin will be killed at that time, and Sun possibly rescued. In that case I think Sun might be holding Michael to blame for Jin's death as well as her dad.

#173. Posted by: cissy at May 16, 2008 6:45 PM

Time to go home for a little celebration with my bride of 32 years, today. Don't expect any more posts for a while.

Namaste, and good luck.

#174. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 6:45 PM

@Cecil Rose/171
"C-130's normally carry at least one enlisted crew member in addition to the pilots, and that crew designation is 'loadmaster', so perhaps that's who's there, if anyone."

Quite true, although the thing I noticed (having taken a few 130 flights) was the lack of noise in the plane's cargo hold ... in reality, the prop noise is simply deafening! Now, I realize this was a production device, such that they could converse before landing, but please, they could've had them shouting over some moderate background noise at least! You might think I'm nit-picking, but for those out there who've had the experience, it was so egregious as to seriously detract from the scene ... imagine a scene on any other show, say with a group chatting at a rock concert directly in front of the stage, but with the music barely audible above ambient in the background ... kinda the same deal.

#175. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 6:51 PM

@Cecil Rose/174
"Time to go home for a little celebration with my bride of 32 years, today. Don't expect any more posts for a while."

Congrats, and I HOPE we don't hear from you for a while, or I'll be worried! :)

#176. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 6:55 PM

@occam/30
@Deep Cover/44
@welh/59
@welh/63
"And when does the explosives read C-4 EXPLOSIVES! with an ! mark??"

Wow, another "Batman" ref! ;)

Good points by all ... I don't know about jumping the shark just yet (and "humping" may be more apropos, with the audience as the shark) ... maybe more like an epi from "Passions" though. I really hope D&C get it together for the finale, as this epi left some ridiculously gaping holes in credibility. Most notably, the whole "Kate is Aaron's biological mom" thing ...

I know, I know, how "credible" is a show "supposed" to be when it involves smoke monsters, apparitions of the dead, and time travel? As I've mentioned before though, none of that bothers me, as long as the plot is consistent ... they "broke the rules" with this epi.

Maybe they'll be clever enough to actually write that sentiment into the show somehow ... throughout the course of watching this show, I keep finding myself yoyoing between rolling my eyes in disappointment, and being impressed by the writers' skillful subterfuge with their audience. Definitely an eye-roller moment now ... waiting to be impressed with how they dig themselves out of this hole!

#177. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 7:13 PM

1) When "dead" Charlie visited Hurley at the nut house, didn't he urge Hurley to go back to the island to help the others?

2) Maybe the island is a huge hidden spaceship, and Widmore and Ben are playing an intergalactic game of "chess" with the Oceanic survivors as live pawns.

#178. Posted by: LostinLove at May 16, 2008 7:24 PM

So guess what I did when I got home from school?!?!

... WRONG!

I watched LOST. again... DUH. =D (evil smiley)!!

So I'm in the process of reading the posts so I guess I'll comment on them as I'm reading them.

@ Mike - 6
How can you miss 20 minutes of an episode without feeling empty!?!?

I start every episode 17 minutes later... so like... 10:17 PM. That way, I can forward the commercials, but still finish on time.

GET Ti-Vo MIKE!

@ Celementine - 8
Jack is a jackass. Seriously. SOO ANNOYING! And his breathing was annoying in this epsiode too!!! Actually, everything he did was annoying. I think his breathing wasn't the worst thing this time. But in "Something Nice Back Home" it was annoying as hell. Gosh.

@ Apollo - 10
Really? Your HD ABC got cut off? Mine was fine.

So guess what... I'm spoiled. I can't watch LOST. unless it's in HD... or anything for that matter. But especially LOST. If it's not in HD, it's painful.

I'm guessing Claire never showed up again after leaving with Christian.

So I guess those people that brought them back home knew what actually happened? I saw someone say that they thought Widmore probably paid Oceanic to keep everything a secret and make up this story.

The timeline is confusing me. Despite Kate's baby making no sense, the number of days that the public thinks they were on the island, seems consistent with the time they actually were on the island. (If that made any sense).

Aaron looks old!!! I can't believe the public believes that crap. And how will Sun explain her pregancy, considering the fact that Jin died in the crash, and she doesn't really look that pregnant when they get off the plane, back home.

So who made up the story? Was it the Oceanic 6 -- Because he waited for the lady to leave until he said, "we all know the story". Blah blah blah. Or did she tell them the story? Or was it someone else?

@ Mac
Though I'm sure Vacc will do a great job, we'll sure miss your Mac-isms.

I suppose you'll post them... but still.

The random extras on this show crack me up. Scott and Steve are the best!!!

@ taylor0822 - 28
Worst line?!? Don't expect to get on my list anytime soon.

Paik's answer to everything seems to be death. So maybe he's going to plan to kill Sun. Doubt it though.

So did anyone else notice, that there were only TWO reporters asking questions the whole time? What about everyone else? Is that unusual?

@ PZ - 83
"ben wasn't really raised by his parents, Locke wasn't raised by his parents, Walt wasn't raised by his parents, Aaron isn't being raised by his parents. connection?"

Yes. Connection probably... but Ben wasn't loved, and Locke wasn't loved. Aaron seems to be... a little TOO loved?

... creepy

@ bcre8ve - 90
Haha, thanks. =D (Evil!!!)

About the evil smiley: I actually had a nightmare about it... I might be going Hurley (crazy) on myself but it really does looke evil!!! And I don't get scared!!!

@ Cecil Rose - 93
"So don’t leave. Last year we managed to keep up sustained conversations, both about Lost and other things, in the /r/a/n/s/o/m/ random topic area."

That's good to know. Thanks!

@ lovelost - 98
Do we know that Paik is connected to Widmore? Or is that just a speculation?

@ meg - 111
What's with the slacking lately?!?!? Haha. And on top of that, you moved on to Beamy (or whatever you named him)!!

Where's MIF!!!

(I'm just kidding. I suppose I just miss the "dollar" you put in to our discussion -- You're worth more than 2 cents too!)

I think the Sayid and Nadia "kiss" was really awkward. It was his mouth open, and she kissing him. He was quite spastic. Which brings me to a CONCLUSION: Sayid is a bad kisser.

(I know he was just surprised to see her).

@ sawyerishot - 136
Yes, we are all HUGE fans of Mac here... But, I'd have to say -- I am, in fact, His biggest fan. =]

@ JoePike - 140
Yo, Yo, Yo.

About Jack's breathing -- It's not all in my head!!! He's so annoying!!! Watch "Something Nice Back Home" and "Through the Looking Glass" again. Those were a few of his many WORST moments... I hate it!!!

Btw, we haven't seen you here in a while!

@ Scooby-Dude - 148
Brilliant. (Wow, now I feel British?)

@ bcre8ve - 153
I literally, LOLed at that one. I was drinking iced tea, and I almost spitted it out. -- But of course, I held it in, because then it will get all over my desk and stuff. So I choked on it instead. Thanks.

@ undaunted - 157
Haha! I just realized that you wrote that!!! I guess bcre8ve's comment caused us both some pain with beverages.

I got upto 165. Not sure how many are after that... I'm about to refresh the page after I post this.

That took me over an hour and 1/2.

#179. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 16, 2008 7:29 PM

Oh great... boozy's back. =/

@ Cecil Rose - 174
Congratulations!!!

#180. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 16, 2008 7:37 PM

Congrats to the other "old man" hereabouts! But, in a month, I'll beat you again . . . 39 years in June. Same wife. Best 23 years of my life . . .


(I know - OLD joke.)

Best wishes to you and the Missus.


DRH

#181. Posted by: davidrh at May 16, 2008 7:53 PM

→174. Cecil Rose
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY.

→181 davidrh
EARLY CONGRATULATIONS.

Too seldom do we hear about such longevity. And apparent happiness!

#182. Posted by: lovelost at May 16, 2008 8:17 PM

71
* Operation Greenhouse was the code name for America's A-bomb testing program in the 1950s... in the south pacific.

I thought the Orchid Logo looked like a mushroom cloud.

Thanks for the review Mac. Be sure to cancel those late night work think tanks and watch the show!

#183. Posted by: berkyo at May 16, 2008 8:23 PM

Jin's actual status remains unknown.
^^^

Jin is a goner remember the episode with Sun and Hurley visiting his grave

I thought in this episode they couldve made more of the desmond/daniel faraday meet at the boat, considering they time travelled together!

#184. Posted by: Lilo at May 16, 2008 9:02 PM

@berkyo/183
"I thought the Orchid Logo looked like a mushroom cloud."

Actually, it looks like a flower (see the link posted by NotLost/18 above):

http://tinyurl.com/6qydvr

What I found interesting were the two previous occurrences of the logo (on Ben's parka in Tunisia and the cover of the secondary protocol pamphlet). See this link for the pics:

tinyurl.com/5bclda

What I DIDN'T notice originally, is that the "I Ching" trigrams on the two logos are different! Two "I Ching" trigrams together make up a "hexagram" (trigram/hexagram terminology arising from the binary math involved ... there are 8 trigrams [3 binary bits required, i.e. two raised to the third power] and 64 hexagrams [6 binary bits] resulting from all possible combinations of the trigrams), and each has a specific meaning in Confucian thought.

Not going to go through the meanings of the hexagrams, but they involve many aspects of interest in Lost lore ... here is a link to the wiki page which describes them all:

tinyurl.com/463kep

What remains to be resolved, is whether the 4 hexagrams in each station logo begin at the top of the symbol, or the first octet clockwise (or maybe counter-clockwise?) in order to create each trigram-pair (i.e., hexagram, with meaning). The "total meaning" of each symbol will depend upon this logic ... good luck to anyone who takes it upon herself/himself to figure it out, based on all the station symbols that have been presented in the show so far! This will not be a simple task, and as dedicated as I am to this show, I just don't think so!

I am also curious to see if other station symbols have been presented with trigrams in different order as well ... maybe this is a clue, or yet another example of sloppy production. I don't know, and frankly am not willing to spend the time to find out ...

Kudos to anyone out there with the time and patience to figure this out though!

#185. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 9:10 PM

"Does the "photo by a local fisherman" reveal anything?"

Sun was not in the photo. The camera then pans down to her face. DK what that means.

Regarding the feeling that we already know what will happen. Well, maybe that's what they want us to think and after the Universe makes a correction it will all change. Also, There are a lot of people just finding LOST and maybe they want to make sure we are all in the same backyard, as to what's going on, so we can all enjoy the finale. Of course there are those like MY husband who watches every week and still says, Why is he doing that? Who is she? Where did he come from?

"On the buried signal box: why bury it 15 years ago? There is no purpose for it. "
Well, there is if you know that you will need it in 15 years.

My view of the finale.

Some of the 06 in the boat, some in the heli. All leaving the island and heading for the freighter- WHOOSH the island disappears and Kaboom - the freighter blows up. Lost again - the heli is out of gas and they bail out and join the others in the boat, the boat is out of gas and they drift to the island that they have photos of at the press conference.

#186. Posted by: berkyo at May 16, 2008 9:25 PM

"I thought the Orchid Logo looked like a mushroom cloud."

Actually, it looks like a flower (see the link posted by NotLost/18 above)

Sorry, I got it mixed up with the logo posted for the Temple.

#187. Posted by: berkyo at May 16, 2008 9:31 PM

Lostpedia has a page with the logos and a note on the orchid logo reads:

# The logos' I Ching lines, or hexagrams, are incorrect on Ben's parka, but they appear correct on Keamy's "Secondary protocol" manual cover.

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Station_logos

#188. Posted by: berkyo at May 16, 2008 9:44 PM

Ok, so where did Faraday get a sketch of the Orchid logo?

Think he has been there before? Or will be one day and took notes and sent them back to himself?

#189. Posted by: berkyo at May 16, 2008 9:47 PM

I don't care much about other mysteries right now, besides the Island.

Move it?
Bearing?

It feels pretty much like island doesn't physically exist, atleast not on earth.
Like it was surrounded with invisible wall with only one gate: correct bearing - in and out. Any other bearings won't reach island, even if you're theoretically in the middle of it.

Maybe that's the "move". They're going to change "gateway bearing" so it would be some other angle. So nobody could get onto island.

But how would it remove killer team from the island? Is it supposed to, at all?

#190. Posted by: InC at May 16, 2008 9:55 PM

I really don't see how the survival story is outrageous except for one point which I will get to...

First: They really did survive the crash of flight 815. That is so freaking preposterous! But they did survive. So the fact that only 6 of them made it isn't any harder to believe than that any of them made it.

Second: Why would anyone doubt Kate's saying she was pregnant? Why would she lie? The FACT is that a baby was born to a survivor of 815. Aaron is living proof of that so why would it occur to anyone to say, "I don't think that's your baby at all. When did you get pregnant? Who is the father? I don't believe you! Who did you steal that child from?" And especially why would they question it when there are 4 other adults who say it is her baby.

3. I do NOT understand why they had to lie about 2 other people surviving the crash but who subsequently died from their injuries. There has to be a reason for that lie but I'll be hornswaggled if I know what it is. Maybe it isn't a lie. Maybe they did have 2 other adults who made it off the island/freighter but died and the Oceanic 6 insisted that Oceanic Airlines return the bodies to the families.

The one point about their story that I have a lot of difficulty with is this: They crashed in the Indian Ocean. That would be the wrong ocean. Sydney to LA......north east over the Pacific.
Indonesia is almost west of Sydney. You fly over a continent to get there.

What the hell???? And none of the reporters asked, "Did any of the passengers realize during the flight that you were going in the wrong direction?" "Did the cabin crew give any indication that they were concerned?" "Didn't anyone think it was strange that you were flying over land for the first several hours of your trip?"

That just sticks in my craw! So to my mind it's little wonder no one questions Kates pregnancy when everyone appears to accept that Flight 815 crashed in the Indian freaking Ocean.

#191. Posted by: undaunted at May 16, 2008 9:57 PM

Reposted from the "Has Eden Been Found?" thread ... thoughts?

>>>
CathyH/vacc/mac, et al ...

Yet ANOTHER good religiously-based theory, with lots of supporting circumstantial evidence ... seems compelling on first glance ...

Until you realize the writers are apparently pursuing some relatively Unitarian/PC-safe approach here ... is there ANY religion and/or philosophy they have not yet made subtle/explicit reference to? There ARE some fundamental concepts the show keeps going back to, yet I find these mostly at the intersection point on a Venn diagram of historical thought comprising all reconized religions/philosophies. Throw in a little physics (also all over the map), and voila ... we have a product everyone can relate to, right? At some level, I like this approach, yet fundamentally find it intellectually lazy ...

I assume that the writers' assume (probably correctly) that there are so many literary/theological/philosophical/other references in the show, that the average viewer will "connect" with those familiar to them, and the rest will be ignored. This will leave "average" viewers with the feeling that the show has been "tailored" to them, when in fact it's more of an exercise in throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks (from each audience member's perspective).

I have been hoping they would refine their "view" at some point, to allow more in-depth discussion of the issues at hand, but am now convinced more than ever that will never happen. Why delve into the intricacies of Hindu thought with regard to the show, when there are supplementary/conflicting references to Protestant, Islamic, Catholic, Pagan, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Egyptian, Confucian, Mesoamerican, Buddhist, and dare I say, "Jedi" thought intermingled? The theological aspects are bad enough ... don't even get me started on the conflicting philosophies presented!

In short, I feel they have been playing too many cards for too long, and am getting sick of being dragged around the cultural playground. At least David Lynch had the balls to go with rather unconventional thought in "Twin Peaks" and stick to it, whether the audience "got it" or not ... J.J. is now striking me as merely a pied-piper of popular thought, rather than someone with something to say, and it saddens me.

I keep finding myself drawn to the show, for now ...

That could also change very quickly if I feel like I'm being used, and I'm damn close to that point right now ...
>>>

#192. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 10:14 PM

If this show ends like Alias I will boycott ABC forever!!! I Won't buy season 5 because it ended so badly,

Mac, you are the best. You enhance the whole Lost experience. Thank you.

I saw the LOST game the other day and almost bought it...but I thought ...there is no way I can reach the end before the end of the series...so I didin't buy it. Is it worth it?

As for the last episode, I was glad Sun got revenge on her dad....you go girl.

The numbers thing on the odometer creeped me out...but I had a car with a trip odometer that went down to the tenths...older cars did that.

I am going to be SO LOST without my Thursday night fix. I've already started watching season 1-3 since Feb...what am I going to do now?

#193. Posted by: so_lost at May 16, 2008 10:16 PM

There are only six confirmed survivors...we know Desmond was not on Oceanic, but he already makes seven. Mark my words, Sawyer is off that island. Snake. Mailbox. Also, the reason bearded drunk Jack can never find the island again is because they move it, to remain safe from the freighter folks.

#194. Posted by: jam at May 16, 2008 10:36 PM

Correcting my direction re: Sydney to Indonesia.... I meant to say Bali which is where both Naomi and Anthony Cooper said the media reported the wreckage of 815 was found, off the coast of Bali. North west of Sydney, over land.

#195. Posted by: undaunted at May 16, 2008 10:38 PM

notsoeasy: things that obviously don't go together: happily ever after and JACK! I'm an admitted Sawyer-Kate fan. If Jack's alone and unhappy, that works for me!

#196. Posted by: Julia at May 16, 2008 11:07 PM

Ealgumby:

I agree with your take on the religious angle.

But I think the reason we see so many theories based on religion is because when Darlton was asked if there were any books we should be reading to help us understand LOST he told us to "keep reading the Bible".

Somepeople took that to mean there will be a Judeo Christian foundation to the story. But I don't think he meant to imply that LOST is actually based on a story from the Bible. I think he meant the Bible will point us in the direction of some hints to what is going on that are sitting right under our noses.

For instance: Jacob's wife died in childbirth delivering her second son, Benjamin. Jacob stole the birthright of his twin brother Esau____So that makes me wonder if Island Jacob is a twin who stole his own brother's birthright (the island) and that makes me wonder if Widmore is a direct descendant of that twin's line and is fighting to regain what is rightfully his?

I don't think for a minute there will be angels and Eden and satan. But I do think that if we know the stories we can apply what we know to LOST and have a revelation...no pun intended.

Here is another one: Aaron was Moses' brother. God talked to Moses; but Moses was not a good speaker so Aaron is the one who told the people what God said. Aaron is the one who spoke to Pharoah and called the first three plagues down onto Egypt, not Moses _____So that makes me wonder if because Island Jacob isn't able to speak to the people he requires a spokesman and baby Aaron is that spokesman.

That's my take on the subject of the Bible and it's relationship to LOST.

#197. Posted by: undaunted at May 16, 2008 11:20 PM

Thanks again for all you do Mac!

I hate to post before reading all the comments but I've only made it through the first 100 and I haven't seen it mentioned yet. What do you think of the rescue "photo" that was shown at the press conference?

I can't decide if I think it was (1) fabricated by Oceanic, (2) if it was staged by the O6 to legitimize their cover up story, or (3) if it was genuinely taken when the O6 washed ashore somewhere.

The thing that concerns me though is that Kate, Sayid, and Jack are all wearing different clothes than in last night's episode and given what we've seen so far about their impending departure from the island, it does not appear that they will have much opportunity to change their clothes before being "rescued."

Other concern is the raft did not look like the one Sayid and Dan were using.

Any thoughts?

#198. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 16, 2008 11:48 PM

Moving the island would explain why they were never able to go back and save any of the other survivors, but the island was hard to find from the start, and then to move would probably make it impossible. Going way back, I’ve never been able to understand why (in last season’s finale), Kate was so AGAINST going back to the island when Jack suggested it. Okay, I wouldn’t be on the phone chartering a boat myself, but there always seemed to be so much more behind her resistance. By the way, am I the only one wondering where the pilot of the cargo plane found the rabbit for extract that foot? Kidding! About Jin being a goner, Lilo, I’m not convinced that was a real grave. Nobody really dies on Lost. Except Artz. It would be hard for him to come back from that one!

#199. Posted by: SKS at May 16, 2008 11:50 PM

Sorry, didn't mean to say "but the island", I meant "because the island."

#200. Posted by: SAS at May 16, 2008 11:52 PM

There's been a lot of downer talk about last night’s episode. Actually, I think it was great. In fact I think all but two eps this season have been outstanding. (The two stinkers were Kate's Trial and Jack Pops the Question to Kate). Even with the flash forwards, I'm still blown away each week with the amount of new twists... Alex getting blown away? Christian and Clair in Jacob's cabin? Ben's time travels? Now we get a new station-- cool, I love new stations, even if it only lasts one episode. (except the tempest- that one didn't amount to much)

It’s just like Lost to lull us into a false sense of security, like we think we can actually predict what is going to happen. And this time they’ve even added flash forwards to make us feel soooo confident… and then they are going to pull the rug out from under us.

We still have no idea what happens-- to the island, to the non-06 people... and what happened that makes the 06 concoct their lies, torments some of them to madness, and makes them want to come back?

I'm looking forward to one of those you-just-couldn't-predict-it plot twists coming up in two weeks.

(I hope)

#201. Posted by: Frogurt at May 17, 2008 12:41 AM

Pt. 2 or 3 will rewind Pt. 1

After lurking, reading the great McJacob recaps and in particular, the posts today, we're being righteously set up for the two hour finale.

The O6 plane flight, press conference sequences (not escape) were so over the top it had to be an abborition or dream. Probably Hurleys since (his) contained all the detail. Swear I saw Tommy Chong at the party.

Horace's flawed upload of his Youtube video last week finally introduced the third script variable. We've got the the Flashback, Flashforward, and now the Flashf*&^ed up DVD you rented from Blockbuster in Season 2.

The Landing/Press Conference had better be a setup for the sake of the writers rep. Gawd,had to be!

I'd love to see them tweak my Bailey Wick and "replay" the landing/press conference in either pt. 2 or 3 in high drama.

#202. Posted by: orchid boy at May 17, 2008 12:42 AM

Hey, guys and gals, I just remembered something from Season 3 that's been bothering me. Desmond told Charlie that he could "see" Claire and Aaron leaving the island on a helicopter, but no Charlie (leading to Charlie's fateful Looking Glass mission). Now that we're just about at helicopter time, it sure doesn't look like Claire's going to be on the chopper, now does it?

#203. Posted by: Neon Leon at May 17, 2008 1:16 AM

Wait, who are the Oceanic 6 again? Oh sorry, I already put my choco foot in my mouth on that one.

@153 bcre8ve
Nurse: Doctor, we need you, stet.
Doctor: Calm down, you're too hyphen.
Nurse: But he has a bullet wound near his spine!
Doctor: It's OK, I'll just make a backslash.

Congratulations, Cecil Rose, the bloggers chorused.

On a more serious note, too bad one of the reporters wasn't one Frederick J. Flintstone, who would have asked,
"Who's baby is that? What's your angle? I'll buy that."

#204. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 17, 2008 2:07 AM

@ Ealgumby and undaunted

I feel the same way about how we are being pulled along this… string… of seemingly “Unitarian” view of the mythology in Lost. I believe we all come from quite different backgrounds, and yet we can relate to certain theologian aspects in the show. But I guess if we were to take a wider view of our own beliefs, we can see the similarities between the monotheistic (and indeed most religious/cultural/…Jedi… viewpoints) religions, they are after all derived from the same essential mythology. Omnipotent power, fallen man, renegade angel and so forth…

“I assume that the writers' assume (probably correctly) that there are so many literary/theological/philosophical/other references in the show, that the average viewer will "connect" with those familiar to them, and the rest will be ignored.”

I don’t think the rest need be ignored very one can find something in these stories. I myself, as an atheist, not without moral values if not took literally.

“I have been hoping they would refine their "view" at some point, to allow more in-depth discussion of the issues at hand, but am now convinced more than ever that will never happen.”

There are a lot of subtle issues which, though they may not address explicitly, carry heavy philosophical/moral implications. I’ll try to give a few brief examples keeping clear of any specific belief.

- The functioning of a society, “free” of any law. Relating to the 815ers when they first reached the island; imagine yourself on the island. What do you believe would have been in your own best interest to survive? Hoard essential supplies like Sawyer (selfish behaviour)? Hunt for the sake of the group like many of the others (altruistic behaviour)? Or depend on the contribution of the group like some have (helpless behaviour)?
- The idea of risking oneself for the sake of others. Its interesting, in a real life sense, that if one were really in Jack’s, or John’s or whomever’s situation, that they would be so willing to risk their own life for going overboard in protecting the others. WHY go out in search of Walt, or Claire etc…, since you are in that position of responsibility of a group of people, should you risk your life and the potential well being of so many for the sake of one OR a few?! It seems contradictory, but the foundation of society and our evolution depend on such ideas…
- Conflict and forgiveness. I can’t remember who said this in a previous season, think it was Des; “You killed more of them than they have of you” to which one of the 815ers replied: “yeah, but, they started it.” I’m of Palestinian origin, so I’m honestly pretty tired of this mentality. If we confine ourselves to the mistakes of the past, then we are doomed to repeat those mistakes. What does it take to put the past behind us and build anew? A new enemy? A common goal? I think both of these are being explored in Lost.
- Last point I’ll mention: Free Will. I believe this ‘idea’ of free will is a real misconception among people these days. Take a moment to try to define Free Will for yourself and what it means to you… You probably came up with something like: “the ability to make a choice/decision without the restrictions of consequence or necessity”. Whatever you define it as, your probably wrong. True ‘Free Will’ cannot (or for the sake of debate; should not) exist. Will or Willingness is what you choose to do; I ‘will’ to eat/sleep/drink, I ‘will’ to watch tv/blog etc… ‘Will’ is a power or ability. Just as ‘freedom’. What is freedom? Really? “So far as man has the power to think, or not to think. Move, or not to move, according to the preference of his own mind; so far is a man free.” So to ask: does the power or ability of ‘will’ have the power, or ability, of ‘freedom’ is absurd. One power has no other power. Only “agents” have power or ability. Locke gives this example (I hope it clarifies…): “A tennis ball, whether it be in motion or at rest, is not by anyone taken to be a ‘free agent’. If we inquire into the reason, we shall find it is because we conceive not a tennis ball to think, and consequently not to have any preference of motion or rest, and therefore has not liberty, is not a ‘free agent’; but all its both motion and rest, come under our idea of necessary, and are so called.” …Perhaps I could have supplied a better example… Do you get the meaning? There’s a lot more to ‘Free Will’, books are written on the subject. But it is certainly one for debate.

Which is one of the aspects I appreciate about Lost; the ability to allow people to really question these types of moral and philosophical points, and put themselves in some of their shoes? That and some of the science-y stuff which I like. I am always up for a debate on these types of topics, which intrigue me a lot more than some of the other questions which I find myself all too often spending time pondering; details, which I find we all come here every day in search for answers but really, don’t want any. Sooner all later well know what happens to the characters, their relationships, the island etc… but the ‘real’ questions probably wont be answered in the show.

Sorry If I bored anyone who read this, I realise now its quite long…

#205. Posted by: Apollo at May 17, 2008 3:29 AM

When they move the island, the GPS explosive device that the head mercenary is wearing will fail to trigger ...

/Damian

#206. Posted by: Damian Mehers at May 17, 2008 4:18 AM

Well it seems as though Ben's self-doubt and self-pity lasted all of about one episode. Ben's back to screwing with Locke's head big time, I'm curious as to how Jack (w/Sawyer), Hurley (w/Ben and Locke) and Kate and Sayid ( Captured by Richard and the Other Army.) are going to reunite with Sun and Aaron but not without taking anyone else with them. My guess is that the Oceanic 6 are evacuated with more to come but Locke then swtiches the Space-Time Modulator and "poof" the island disappears to only to reemerge somewhere else on Planet Earth.

I have to agree with the whole Sun taking over Daddy's Empire plot twist. No financial settlement is so big that you could use it to take over another company, particularly in South Korea where the big companies are huge and make everything and are in bed with the government. So unless Sun has a Sugar Daddy bankrolling her such as Charles Widmore or perhaps Ben Linus this plot twist needs clarification.

#207. Posted by: unladenswallow at May 17, 2008 4:22 AM

I did enjoy this season (and also Mac's reviews) very much. Thx, Mac.

Regarding the Lost story, I can't get rid of the feeling that we just have to put together a couple clues from the last seasons in order to see the big picture:

- did anybody else read Walt's original comic book?
- in the original hatch, there were some very strange symbols shown before it exploded (I don't think this was Dharma l33t sp34k!)
- some people on the island don't seem to age at all
- some dead people keep walking around
- Locke is able to walk again since the crash
- the island can move (like a space ship? -- someone else already came up with this idea...)
- aliens could have advanced technology which enables them to travel in time
- the smoke monster could also be alien technology or even an alien itself
=> I don't think that the Dharma people could develop such kind of technology
=> there are scientist studying this technology (men of science) and believers who seem to have a religious connection to it (men of faith)

All these clues lead me to believe that the big picture of the Lost story has to involve aliens or at least alien technology.

#208. Posted by: Margot at May 17, 2008 6:51 AM

Am I the only one who thinks that Sun's "other person who killed Jin" is Sun herself? She's blaming herself for everything she did to Jin - having an affair, causing her dad to transfer Jin from factory manager to hit man, planning to leave him, etc. She's angry at herself, but taking it all out on her dad.

#209. Posted by: Zeb at May 17, 2008 7:54 AM

@208 Margo:
Intelligent aliens would be a dissapointment to me. I'd prefer Smokey, the sonic fense, the hatches, stations, etc to be future earth technology, brought back by the time travelling Others, or the entity that is/represents the Island itself. Also, the 4 toed statue could be a remnant of a post-apocalyptic society, from like 2000 years in the future. When we saw the statue, it had a Planet ot Apes feel to me.

I understand and agree with most of the negative remarks I've read. Then again, we should also consider our level of investment in this show. Come on, we're addicts. We've spent so much time on this thing, that we can't afford to be dissapointed.

We should distance ourselves just a little bit. Keep watching, enjoying and discussing it. But always keep in mind that it is a tv show. It is not your life and will not give you answers that will change the way you look at stuff. It's just entertainment. Don't take it too seriously, you know? Play outside more :)

#210. Posted by: Robislost at May 17, 2008 8:50 AM

A couple people have mentioned the rescue photo the "fisherman" took. I'm not sure if anyone's posted it, but I will just for good measure:

http://tinyurl.com/3qfjgp

And someone said they couldn't see Sun in the picture. She's there. On the other side of Kate. I'm assuming that's not Kate's arm swinging out in front of her because that would be a freakishly long arm and she should be holding Aaron.

#211. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 17, 2008 8:58 AM

GRAA, Mac! I've been a devoted reader to this blog for years now and - like the others here (posters, not the Island people) - I consider it an essential add-on to my Lost Experience! I love to read all the comments here, a great mix of intelligence and humor. Lovely :).

While there are some people here wondering about how it is strange that Claire's mother has awoken from a coma, nobody seems to be asking the question: IS CLAIRE'S MOTHER EVEN REAL? I don't think so. I really think she might be an apparition, the Island course correcting and trying to influence Jack into returning to the island. Saving his friends or whatever his purpose is.

Any opinions on this?

#212. Posted by: r-Yawn at May 17, 2008 9:02 AM

@ 208/ Margot
- did anybody else read Walt's original comic book?
Yes, it was Hurleys on the plane.
- in the original hatch, there were some very strange symbols shown before it exploded (I don't think this was Dharma l33t sp34k!)
I translated the symbols to say, "He escapes the place of Death."
- some people on the island don't seem to age at all
True
- some dead people keep walking around
True
- Locke is able to walk again since the crash
Apparently true
- the island can move (like a space ship? -- someone else already came up with this idea...)
unknown
- aliens could have advanced technology which enables them to travel in time
Yes, a possibility to explain story premise like the Atlantis theories
- the smoke monster could also be alien technology or even an alien itself
Maybe, I am leaning toward Death from the Gates of Hell demon spirit
=> I don't think that the Dharma people could develop such kind of technology
unknown, but the Orchid was functioning before the Purge and at that point Dharma was in control of the island
=> there are scientist studying this technology (men of science) and believers who seem to have a religious connection to it (men of faith)
It is possible that the same technology/event can have two wildly different interpretations, even within the science or faith communities . . . and leading to outright war between them (see, Middle East history).

@ all re: 305 bearing
Looking at Faraday's notebook, the explanation that everyone is taking bearing 305 to and from the freighter is that once you hit the barrier, you invert to a heading of 130. I guess it would be like putting a mark on the outside of gym sock then pulling it inside out.

@ all re: where the show is going
I think the biggest issue of the show going forward is that the underlying premise of the show is being kept secret from the audience. The longer the foundational premise remains hidden, the more speculation and doubt arises in the fan base. If the producers are holding back to the final show for the reveal in order to have their story not analyzed, then that is a dangerous mistake. At this point, if the show premise is that there is a controlled worm hole, time travel alien technology device, or a Dr. Who telephone booth . . . it really should not matter because the focus is still on the characters, their emotions, motivations, morals and choices.

#213. Posted by: welh at May 17, 2008 9:45 AM

@210. Posted by: Robislost

Enjoy the ride, and not the destination?

Yeah - keeping some perspective is not all that bad!

#214. Posted by: shikotee at May 17, 2008 9:58 AM

I feel like everyone's (or just some are) beginning to lose faith.

DON'T LOSE FAITH!

If you lose faith in the island, the island loses faith in you.

... in this case, the show.

I personally thought last night's epsisode was amazing.

I still have faith in the writers. I think they'll make the finale, and the next two seasons even better than the past two, and they will end it with a BANG that will totally be worth it at the end.

#215. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 17, 2008 10:10 AM

@213. Posted by: welh

I disagree with you - the mysterious premise is what keeps the show interesting. If they reveal too early, everything after is just fluff.

Call it the Twin Peaks lesson. After you found out who killed Laura Palmer, there just wasn't all that much to keep you going.

While I hope there will be a great payoff in terms of resolving the mystery of the island, I'm not all that worried about the solution. Anticipation is always half the fun, and answers seldom live up to the adventure and intrigue involved in the question itself.

In the off season, for those of you who have not had the chance, check out the classic series "The Prisoner", which clearly has influenced Lost in all sorts of ways.

When they wrapped this show up, large portions of the fans were pissed off at how it was handled. They wanted a nice narrative resolution, but this was not what McGoohan had in mind.

For me, no matter what the resolution turns out to be, I will remember the times of great challenge and intrigue that Lost provided for me....

#216. Posted by: shikotee at May 17, 2008 10:27 AM

@ r-Yawn (212),

That’s an interesting point, quite possible, but we still don’t have any evidence that apparitions are real. Previous examples we’ve seen could have been hallucinations, or manifestations of a guilty conscience. Like Libby to Michael. Or if we take Hurley’s visions of Charlie the same thing could be said… except when they first meet on the bench in the facility’s park after he gets admitted to the hospital. If you recall, Charlie was sitting on the bench when one of Hurley’s fellow “crazies” (Lewis) tells him someone (Charlie) is staring. I think because Lewis is able to “see” him, we have to accept that a physical manifestation of Charlie was there. I’m not sure if it’s smokey or a holographic message from the island, that part is still up in the air. So I’m not sure it is an apparition, I’m willing to believe it was really her.

But I agree, that it could very well be a “course correction and trying to influence Jack into returning to the island.” Here revelation of Claire’s relation to Jack seemed too bizarre. Weak writing? Or deliberate lack of subtlety on destiny’s part? “Wake up Claire’s mum (I forgot her name) you have work to do.” And like a zombie she gets up to tell Jack... I won’t be surprised if she dropped dead just outside!! Haha

@ Notsoeasy (211,)

“I'm assuming that's not Kate's arm swinging out in front of her because that would be a freakishly long arm and she should be holding Aaron.”

I looked at the pic again, and you appear correct. But considering Aaron has a big melon head, and the six of them would be exhausted, I can’t see why Kate isn’t using BOTH arms to carry Aaron. I still don’t think she’s carrying Aaron, I don’t think any of them are. We can see one of the arm’s of each of the survivors (both of Sayids’). The guy Jack is looking at; is it just me or are his legs a heck of a lot darker than his arms. Is it cause of the shade? I don’t know… The guy behind him pulling the boat has his leg half in the shade of the boat, and you can still tell that he’s the same all round.

#217. Posted by: Apollo at May 17, 2008 11:03 AM

@205 Apollo shot:
"True ‘Free Will’ cannot (or for the sake of debate; should not) exist."

Interesting thoughts. Seems to me it fits into the man of science/man of faith debate.

@212 r-Yawn breathed:
Is Claire's mother real?

I had the same thought that she was probably an apparition. But I suppose the island could have healed her if it had work for Jack to do (i.e., raise Aaron).

#218. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 17, 2008 11:21 AM

About Jin: I'm beginning to think that Jin is really dead. There has to be a reason for the "contrived" addition of two people who survived the crash just to have them die later of their injuries. Why would they invent those two people?

To explain their bodies being transported back to the real world. Jin is one of those 2 bodies; I don't know who the other one is yet.

That explains the cargo crew person we can barely see sitting away from the survivors. It also explains why cargo door was used, rather than the passenger door, for the survivor's exit from the plane. The cargo door opened because there was cargo: Two coffins.

I think Sun gained controlling interest in her father's company not to have the resources to find her husband, but because she is pissed off that her husband is DEAD, because she knows that makes her father happy, because it was her father's actions that put Sun & Jin on that plane, So her motivation is to permanently wipe that smug look off his face.

#219. Posted by: undaunted at May 17, 2008 11:45 AM

jam/194:

I agree! Sawyer gets off the island. But I don't think he gets off with the survivors. He will arrive later. He has to because I think it is he and Kate who are supposed to be Aaron's guardians.

LOST is about a war for control of that island. It's been going on for a very long time with preiods here and there of peace. Our Lostees literally fell in mid-battle and now, whether they like it or not, are drafted into the fight. It is all about securing that island so Aaron can be returned to it safely so he can act as Jacob's spokesman.

There will be no peace for any of the survivors until they acquiesce to their new roles. That doesn't mean they have to return to the island right now. It means they have to make peace with the fact that they will be called back. They can't rush to go back; it won't work. They can't escape it, that won't work. They just have to live their lives and be prepared to go when they are called. And when they are called, the path back will be opened to them.

Don't push the river, it flows by itself.

#220. Posted by: undaunted at May 17, 2008 12:31 PM

Apollo:

Poor Claire's mom walks outside the funeral service and is ... hit by a car!

Your work is done Claire's mom. Thank you for serving.

#221. Posted by: undaunted at May 17, 2008 1:06 PM

219. Posted by: undaunted

Jin is not one of the 2 who supposedly died on the island...Sun said at the news conference that he never made it off the plane.

I do think you are right about the takeover though. What better way to hurt daddy than in the pocketbook.

#222. Posted by: surefoot at May 17, 2008 1:11 PM

Re: Sun having enough money to buy 51% of Paik Inustries.

In addition the the settlement money, maybe Hurley gave her his lotto winnings. He has said on multiple occasions that he didn't want the money.

#223. Posted by: Not That Ben at May 17, 2008 1:19 PM

surefoot/222:

Ok. It does make sense that it isn't Jin, because why not just say he survived the crash and then died? Maybe there is a reason for the deception. I don't know.

But I do think that there are two coffins on that cargo plane and I wonder who (or maybe even what) is inside them.

#224. Posted by: undaunted at May 17, 2008 1:32 PM

I thought Parvati was one of the Oceanic 6?

#225. Posted by: smitty at May 17, 2008 1:44 PM

Wow! I just got through all the posts! Everyone has commented on all the points I wanted to mention. I am looking forward to the filling in of the gaps between where they are now on the island and when they finally get of. There are definitley decsions that will be made which seal the fate for some and let others be free.

I would hate to see the non-Oceanic characters go by the wayside. Desmond and Juliet's stories need to be followed through on as well. What becomes of Juliet's sister and her kid? How about Penny?

Personally, I didn't enjoy this episode a whole lot. Maybe I am just too consumed with Prison Break now. Only a couple more episodes to go on that, and then I'll refocus on the last few episodes here and catch up.

Congrats to Cecil Rose. For some reason I had you pictured as a skinny guy in his thirties or forties - wow though, 32 years!!!

#226. Posted by: meg...MIF at May 17, 2008 1:57 PM

In a FF, Jin is seen buying a stuffed animal, presumably for Sun's newborn, but the woman in the hospital is not Sun, so maybe he is alive. I do not assume ANYTHING in this show which is one of the greatest things about it. We, the viewing audience, are the ones that are truly lost and there are very few places I'd rather be!

#227. Posted by: Pat Cleary at May 17, 2008 3:15 PM

Daniel’s reaction to learning that Keamy had initiated the “Secondary Protocol” indicated that the island would be destroyed, so he and Charlotte had to get to the freighter. I found it curious that Dan would know about the protocol, but Charlotte didn’t, and would guess that Dan’s knowledge comes from fuzzy time-travel memories (hence the notebook with the Orchid logo sketch).

@Mike/6: “They can't be trying to destroy the island since they're not planning on leaving and mercenaries don't do suicide missions.”

As for Keamy’s underarm detonator and stockpile of Acme explosives, was that his idea alone and not part of the protocol? A little insurance policy so the folks on the freighter don’t leave him behind?

Maybe the detonator not only monitors Keamy for a pulse, but also monitors the location of the ship. If the ship travels out of range, it could also trigger the explosion.

But he didn’t tell anyone it was there, so he’s not using it as a threat. Or not yet. I think the crazy SOB is really planning to destroy the island and the freighter. I’m not clear if he has an exit strategy (Orchid wormhole) or if it’s a suicide mission, but I wouldn’t discount that possibility, as we don’t know if he’s just following orders or has another motivation.

#228. Posted by: Clementine at May 17, 2008 3:52 PM

@@@@@@@@@

This theory may be a bit out there, but what if we find out that Kate's baby isn't really hers and it is the same Aaron that Claire had on the island? Maybe there is only one baby Aaron!?!?! That would be crazy, but I have a feeling that in the finale we'll find out that Kate's baby Aaron is actually the same baby Aaron that Claire gave birth to.

Big shout out to Ilovebenlinusxxx, her list, her evil smiley face, and her Photoshop love.

Peace... Namaste... Naysayer out!

@@@@@@@@

#229. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 17, 2008 3:54 PM

@shikotee: (because he wants to be a ninja) and
@LostedIt/36: “How is Ben going to overpower the mercenaries senseless without his Jedi beat-down stick?”

I didn’t even notice Ben “passing the baton” to Locke until my second viewing. And then I saw this great screencap over at DarkUFO:

http://tinyurl.com/485fqe

I’m not saying I believe it for sure, but looks like that could be the baton next to Jack’s head in the first scene of the pilot when Jack wakes up in the jungle after the crash. Theory is that Jack may be returning to the island to relive his experience (a do-over). Maybe an example of “looping” (see Cecil’s Lost Book Review: “The Invention of Morel” under the Random Topic thread).

Crazy, man.

#230. Posted by: Clementine at May 17, 2008 4:20 PM

→ 223. Posted by: Not That Ben
In addition the the settlement money, maybe Hurley gave her his lotto winnings. He has said on multiple occasions that he didn't want the money.
- - - -
And who is to say that the other OA6 did not toss 10 or 20 mil in to the pot to help Sun grab a controlling interest. May Team Widmore or Team Linus has made a large anonymous to Team Kwon to toss Paik to the curb???

Maybe families from the missing OA300+ put a mil or two from their settlements against Paik... on Sun's word, of course, that things were not as they seemed.

#231. Posted by: DocH at May 17, 2008 4:29 PM

Long time reader. First time poster.

I hesitate to criticize the Lost writers, as they are clearly geniuses. However, here's a line I would have LOVED to have heard when Sun didn't need to translate for Michael on the freighter:

"YOU SPEAK ENGLISH TOO?!"

The moment when Michael learned that Sun spoke English was one of the funniest Lost moments ever in my book.

#232. Posted by: Scotty at May 17, 2008 4:31 PM

→ 223. Posted by: Not That Ben
In addition the the settlement money, maybe Hurley gave her his lotto winnings. He has said on multiple occasions that he didn't want the money.
- - - -
PLUS. Sun did not go to Hurley's surprise birthday, BUT... we did see (later?) Hurley go to visit Sun in Korea and he visited Jin's tombstone with her. That suggests an alliance... but he was the only one. Perhaps she fell out of favor with the other OA6/OA300+... because of the money they invested.

#233. Posted by: DocH at May 17, 2008 5:09 PM

I wondered why Sun even bothered with taking control of her father's company. Didn't she hate that business? Doesn't she know it is involved with illegal activities and is dangerous? Why would she put her self in a position where she might endanger her baby, and involve herself more with her father's life?

In an attempt to answer my own questions, maybe her father isn't really the motive. Maybe Paik Industries (or whatever it is called) plays a deeper role in island related affairs.

@Naysayer - that's a ridiculous theory about Aaron. They can't be the same baby. Claire's baby had a turnip head!

#234. Posted by: meg at May 17, 2008 5:21 PM

AND... Sun goes to minority shareholders in Paik Corp. and tells them (solicits)... "You know all of those shares you bought 20 years ago for $5 dollars each, that are now worth $50 dollars each... yeah... well... I have info that will make them worthless if 'xx-yy-zz' data gets publicized... so, in good faith... I will take them off your hands for $10 dollars." ???

(fez says) I say good-day sir!

#235. Posted by: DocH at May 17, 2008 5:24 PM

Clementine/230:

I saw that screencap at DarkUFO too. I watched episode 1 again; sure enough...black baton like thing right there on the ground next to Jack. He could easily have moved his arm a bit and picked it up while still laying where he landed. Landed, by the way, in the same psotion...flat on his back arms outstretched, as Ben landed in the Sahara.

I dunno...crazy, man? I'll say!
_________________

Pat Cleary/227:

Jin picking up that panda was a flash back. It preceded Sun giving birth by a couple of years; he was delivering it to a Chinese business associate of Mr. Paik. Jin told the nurse at the hospital that he was a newly wed.
__________________

With regard to Sun's financing her purchase of controlling interest of her father's company: vacc @147 offers a credible explanation of how she might have managed it. She didn't have to buy 51%; she could have pulled it off by purchasing far less...read #147.

#236. Posted by: undaunted at May 17, 2008 5:37 PM

→ 234. Posted by: meg
... that's a ridiculous theory about Aaron. They can't be the same baby. Claire's baby had a turnip head!
- - - -
MIFIMH (MIF In My Heart).
Anyone watch "Family Guy"? Obnoxious FOX cartoon, at best. Little tiny baby character "Stewie" always has a brutal, internal monologue going about how he is going to conquer the world, subjegate everyone to his myopic view, never wavers from his desires... unless an infantile need (diaper/food) changes things... That is how I see Aaron. A little 'dictator-in-waiting' hanging around for the stars and moon to align so he can fulfill his destiny/fate on the island, as Jacob's replacement.

#237. Posted by: DocH at May 17, 2008 5:39 PM

I loved the ending to this episode. They even mixed the happy/danger songs for it and it was amazing.

#238. Posted by: asfafddgfsdg at May 17, 2008 5:44 PM

Pt. 2 and 3.

Wow... Richard A., John and Ben L., all together at the Orchid...

I'm thinking they might scrape together a cliffhanger for us slobbering addicts.

#239. Posted by: Genghis at May 17, 2008 6:23 PM

What are you guys' talking about??? Aaron that's with Kate is Claire's baby and not her baby..we know that already..

→ 229. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 17, 2008 3:54 PM
This theory may be a bit out there, but what if we find out that Kate's baby isn't really hers and it is the same Aaron that Claire had on the island? Maybe there is only one baby Aaron!?!?! That would be crazy, but I have a feeling that in the finale we'll find out that Kate's baby Aaron is actually the same baby Aaron that Claire gave birth to.

Big shout out to Ilovebenlinusxxx, her list, her evil smiley face, and her Photoshop love.

Peace... Namaste... Naysayer out!

→ 234. Posted by: meg
... that's a ridiculous theory about Aaron. They can't be the same baby. Claire's baby had a turnip head!

#240. Posted by: KSR at May 17, 2008 6:26 PM

huh?

#241. Posted by: davidrh at May 17, 2008 7:29 PM

@240 Posted by: KSR

Yes... and finally a definitive answer to Aaron.

My current Camaro odometer reading...

052908

#242. Posted by: Genghis at May 17, 2008 8:13 PM

@unladenswallow/207: “Locke then switches the Space-Time Modulator and "poof" the island disappears”

Locke takes the elevator to the Orchid Island Mover basement workshop, the doors open, and there stands Marvin the Martian, in a Roman centurion outfit and basketball shoes.

MARVIN: “Give me that, earthling! You are making me very angry. Very angry, indeed!”

LOCKE: “What? This?” holding up Ben’s telescoping baton.

MARVIN: “Oh, goodie, after two thousand years of research, time to use the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space-Time Modulator!”

LOCKE: “What are you doing?” as the cartoon martian snatches the device.

MARVIN: “It’s quite simple. I’m going to move the island.”

A tunneling mound of dirt enters stage left, and up pops BUGS BUNNY #15: “Eh, what’s up, Doc? Pardon me for boddering ya, but did you say you was gonna move the island?”

Up pops another BUNNY: “Eh, what’s up, Doc?” And another, “Eh, what’s up, Doc?”

MARVIN throws the Modulator at rabbits, Locke dives for cover, the sky goes purple, and... nothing.

MARVIN: "Where is the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!”

LOCKE: “Well, back to the old drawing board.”

#243. Posted by: Clementine at May 17, 2008 8:18 PM

@@@@@@@@@

MEG! I think we might be on to something... possibly a huge clue to many mysteries... unlocking secrets and discovering truths - finally! It makes me wonder if Kate realizes that she actually didn't give birth to him? She might be totally oblivious to the fact that he is really Claire's son!?!? Maybe... maybe not, I guess we'll find out in upcoming episodes... !?!?

Mr_Naysayer

@@@@@@@@

#244. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 17, 2008 8:18 PM

Foreshadowing - when Sawyer says to Jack...something like...getting off the island, why do you want to do that so badly, you are beginning to sound like a broken record.

hmmm...why all this sudden discussion about turnip head???

DMIB

#245. Posted by: meg at May 17, 2008 8:21 PM

Another rainy weekend here. Thank goodness for mac’s Lost Blog!

******************************************

@RONB/3: Smart, odd, interesting people... for sure ;)

******************************************

@Scooby/54: “Will we finally see the Orchid video and confirm that it's canon? If so, can we refer to season 4 as wabbit season?” GROAN/chuckle :)

******************************************

@PiecesofArzt/56: “There is a big red button labeled "Press Here To Move The Island" (Austin Powers-style)Even Locke can get that!”

Reminded me of this quote from Ben to Locke:
"So, tell me John. How do you expect to pilot our submarine? I mean, it's a complicated piece of machinery. You don't just press 'Submerge'."

******************************************

@dharmaboy/70: “and did the scene with the view from inside the Coast Guard transport (as the cargo bay opened) remind anybody of the climatic scene from "Close Encounters"?”

and Cecil/84: “The opening of the C-130 cargo ramp was a little bogus. They’ve got a nice passenger door right behind the cockpit, complete with steps.”

But then we wouldn’t have this foreboding screencap: http://tinyurl*com/3l4orp

******************************************

@lovelost/98: “What's up with the box that Ben dug up? A mirror, binocs and .... saltines?”

My first thought was an homage to the concept of the “magic box.” A little something for everybody: Mirror for Ben, binoculars for Locke, and snacks for Hurley. The island granting their unconscious wish ;)

But probably just standard Dharma protocol to have lookout stations (during the time of war with the Hostiles).

******************************************

Wait, did someone say Charlie was humping the Dharma shark? I know it must get lonely down at the Looking Glass, but geez... cheeky little bugger ;)

******************************************

@Jin’s Flashlight/154: “I thought that the future flashes after the initial landing/press conference were intentionally meant to parody soap operas.”

Maybe. But as an insider joke, or relevant to the overall plot? Is this future a reality, or is it all a dream made up by crazy Hurley (who, I’m guessing, watched a lot of soaps at Santa Rosa.) I know we tackled this before; just came to mind when I read your post.

******************************************

@Gabriel/161/163: re the other person on the plane

http://tinyurl*com/6guq6k

That’s MICHAEL! If that’s not Michael, I’ll eat Claire’s wig! And it’s Michael in the coffin. That’s my far-out theory of the day.

******************************************

@Cecil and Mrs. Rose: Felicitations and Happy Anniversary!
@Davidrh and Mrs. H: a pre-emptive Happy Anniversary!

And a Thank You to both of the Mesdames for sharing you with us :)

******************************************

@berkyo/183: "I thought the Orchid Logo looked like a mushroom cloud.”
@ealgumby/185: “Actually, it looks like a flower.”

I think it looks a little like Paik’s company logo (or vice-versa):

http://tinyurl*com/4vpof5
http://tinyurl*com/3t6az6

******************************************

@undaunted/197: “I don't think for a minute there will be angels and Eden and satan. But I do think that if we know the stories we can apply what we know to LOST and have a revelation...no pun intended.” Agreed.

and Apollo/205: I so appreciate your thoughts. A few of my favorite Lost quotes:
Penny to Des: “Because all we need to survive is one person who truly loves us.”
Eko to Yemi-Monster: “I did not ask for the life that I was given. But it was given, nonetheless. And with it... I did my best.”
Locke (despondent at the hatch, after Boone’s fatal fall): “I've done everything you wanted me to do. So why did you do this to me? WHY??”

******************************************

It’s so annoying when people credit themselves with getting predictions right, so you should all just skip over this next part:

Way back somewhere I predicted they would get rescued on Day 108! Woo-hoo for me! I’m so smart! I’m sure no one else thought of that before me! Me, me, me!

And now back to semi-literate commentary...

******************************************

Random rabbit-foot sighting alert! I bet BunnyLover is calling PETA right now ;)

******************************************

Frogurt/201 said: “There's been a lot of downer talk about last night’s episode.”

On a lighter note, anyone watch SNL? I love Debbie Downer:
•“By the way, it's official... I can't have children!"
•"Feline AIDS is the #1 killer of domestic cats."
•"Slather up the sunscreen... I had a mole looked at recently and the doctor told me that due to the extent of its irregular borders, I'm flirting with a melanoma."

WAH, Wah.

******************************************

@r-Yawn/212: “Is Claire’s mother even real?” Great question. I’m starting to wonder if the whole off-island storyline is even real.

******************************************

@smitty/225: “I thought Parvati was one of the Oceanic 6?” She reminds me of Nikki, so hopefully she’s 6 feet under!

******************************************

@KSR/240: No way that baby is Claire’s. That’s crazy. Totally different baby, dude.

#246. Posted by: Clementine at May 17, 2008 8:25 PM

IheartMyNaysayer...xoxo


DMIB

#247. Posted by: meg...MIF at May 17, 2008 8:28 PM

Hey, I think the URL blocker is back up and running! Mac, if you have my first post in the queue, you can delete it! Thanks!

If anyone is trying to use the URLs in my post, don't forget to replace the (*) with a period.

Namaste ;)

#248. Posted by: Clementine at May 17, 2008 8:29 PM

@Clementine - What is this "rain" thing you speak of??? My house/yard is dried up, dead, and brown. Surrounded by wildfires!! send it to Florida!!!

#249. Posted by: meg...aka...Cindy's scarf at May 17, 2008 8:36 PM

@Meg: Lows in the 40s, highs in the 50s, and water falling straight down from the sky! I'm sending a wish to the magic box, "Go South to Meg! Go South to Meg!"

p.s. When you open the box, be careful of the lightning.

#250. Posted by: Clementine at May 17, 2008 8:42 PM

Did kate overhear the conversation between Jack and Claire's mom? It looked like she might have, but I couldn't tell.

#251. Posted by: meg at May 17, 2008 8:47 PM

@Clementine - 40's and 50's ??? Are you in freakin' Alaska??!! A "cold" day here is the low 80's.. It's so freakin' hot, I can't stand it!! I am still waiting for winter to come. My kids have never even seen snow, and Santa can't get in with no fireplace...:)

I'll send some of my heat up your way, but you need to be sensitive as well, 'cause some of us live in an OVEN!!!

wishing I was North!!!

#252. Posted by: meg at May 17, 2008 9:01 PM

MIF! Paging MIF! Your services are needed...

vacc just posted a new photo caption!

Get over there quick!

#253. Posted by: Clementine at May 17, 2008 9:08 PM

Thanks Clementine...you'll always be my favorite blogess!!! :)

Now, back to Scofield!!

#254. Posted by: meg at May 17, 2008 9:19 PM

→ 28. Posted by: taylor0822
"Worst line: "John, how many times do I have to tell you, I always have a plan." Tell that to Alex, you bug-eyed freak."

Oh, Ben had a plan for saving Alex, all right. It wasn't a very good plan, but he did have one.

And so far, it looks like his plan for taking care of the mercs is at about the same level of genius.

#255. Posted by: Zeb at May 17, 2008 9:20 PM

I finally got caught up with the posts!

Not even in trouble with the misses. You can do that after 40 years.

Congratulations to Cecil ! and great review of Morel !

I think that one of the 2 survivors was the Marshal. Kate would have had a hard time saving all those people in the water with handcuffs on. He would have lived long enough to take the cuffs off.

I also think the flash forwards were unreal. And just a projection of what could have happened but didn’t cause the island did some very funny things when they moved it.

#256. Posted by: SamFin at May 17, 2008 10:25 PM

@28
Worst line: "John, how many times do I have to tell you, I always have a plan." Tell that to Alex, you bug-eyed freak.

HILARIOUS!!! :p

Great episode & review!!!

#257. Posted by: MassielZ at May 18, 2008 12:20 AM

@ Meg (#251)

I was wondering what people thought about that too. The first time I watched it I wasn't sure, but the second time I thought she definitely did overhear. My husband disagrees.

@ notsoeasy (#211)

I agree that couldn’t be Kate’s arm. But it might belong to someone other than Sun. Sun and Aaron are the only two of the O6 not readily visible in that picture. Since we know at the end of the Finale Part 1 that Sun & Aaron were on the freighter and the other 4 were still on the island. Perhaps the picture was taken before Sun & Aaron met up with the other four.

#258. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 18, 2008 1:07 AM

I have looked at the picture of the O6 riding in the back of the Coast Card plane and I can't see the mysterious "other" person that keeps being mentioned. Is there any way someone could circle that part of the picture or something? Is anyone else not seeing this? Or is it me? Maybe it's just getting late.

#259. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 18, 2008 1:12 AM

Clementine/246: "I’m starting to wonder if the whole off-island storyline is even real." and SamFin/256: "I also think the flash forwards were unreal. And just a projection of what could have happened but didn’t cause the island did some very funny things when they moved it."

I like that line of thought, especially as it seems to explain such a large series of awkward events. It would also be the ultimate response to those viewers who believe that the writers have suddenly turned careless or lazy.

Last year's finale, "Through the Looking Glass", completely flipped the Lost story telling paradigm from flashbacks to flashforwards. One of the key plot points occurred at the radio tower just after Locke shot Naomi and as Jack prepared to use her sat phone and contact the freighter. While Locke backed off his threat to shoot Jack, his message was clear: "We're not supposed to do this".

The Lewis Carroll book, "Through the Looking Glass", is not a sequel to Alice in Wonderland, but instead takes many of the same characters and settings and stands them on their head, creating a kind of mirror image of the original book.

From Wikipedia: "uses frequent changes in time and spatial directions as a plot device, and ...in it, there are many mirror themes, including opposites, time running backwards, and so on."

As in the first book, it ends with Alice waking up, and the events that have happened to her are clearly identified as a dream.

This year's season finale, "There's no Place Like Home", borrows the famous line from the Wizard of Oz.

In Baum's original book, Dorothy does in fact visit Oz, i.e. it is a real place and contains real characters. The phrase "There's no Place Like Home" contains no real significance- it is used only once, as an off-hand remark by Dorothy early in the book to describe why she loves Kansas.

The movie version, though, clearly indicates that Dorothy's visit to Oz is a dream, a result of her being injured in the tornado. Almost all of her backstory in that first black and white 15 minutes is not in the book and was created for the movie to firmly establish Dorothy's reality in Kansas.

In the movie, the central plot of the ruby slippers, the trip to see the Wizard, and the killing of the Wicked Witch is more of a decoy or maguffin than anything else- it is the phrase "There's no Place Like Home" that contains the powerful magic that awakens Dorothy from her dream and returns her to reality.

If the flash-forwards are not entirely "real", it would be a mirror image of the Alice and Dorothy stories where the island was real, and the return to reality and home the dream.

That would go a long way to explain why so many of the post rescue events seem almost "soap opera perfect" and idealized, and why characters such as Jack and Hurley are first haunted and then breaking down mentally- they are the ones of the Oceanic 6 closest to "waking up", i.e. returning to the reality of the Island.

#260. Posted by: Mizzed at May 18, 2008 1:39 AM

@175 ealgumby remembered:

>>@Cecil Rose/171
>>"C-130's normally carry at least one enlisted crew member in addition to the pilots, and that crew designation is 'loadmaster', so perhaps that's who's there, if anyone."

>Quite true, although the thing I noticed (having taken a few 130 flights) was the lack of noise in the plane's cargo hold ... in reality, the prop noise is simply deafening!

Oh, absolutely. There’s a scene in “Raid on Entebbe”, a retelling of the Israeli rescue of hostages from Uganda’s capital airport, where, the raid over, the raiding party and most of the hostages are flying back to Israel and raid leader Charles Bronson has a tender scene with the dying Yonathan. He whispers reassurances to the dying soldier as the whole plane listens in. A tender scene but it cracks me up because, with those four turboprop engines right outside the cargo bay, plus the auxiliary power generator in the wheel well right beside you, the C-130 has to be the noisiest airplane in the Air Force inventory, and you have to place your mouth right next to the ear of the person you’re talking to and shout to be heard at all.

Cecil rose, veteran of all too many flights in C-130 cargo bays, as in “Eh, what’s that you say, sonny?”

O============

@205 Apollo

Not in the least boring and fodder for some fascinating discussion in the of season, so I do hope you stick with us in the random discussion area.

O============

@everybody:

I see a lot of speculation, here and elsewhere, that the others have some sort of mastery over time travel. Probably this has been triggered by the “problems with time” noted and demonstrated by Daniel Faraday involved in traveling to and from the island. While these appear to be real, I don’t think that we’ll find that Ben, or anyone else (Richard, Abbadon, Jacob) has any readily controllable method of time travel. Because, if they did, it would change everything else. How could you sneak a freighter up on the island if you could just zip back in time and thwart the attack by being completely prepared for it. Both for logical reasons in the story itself, and in the logic of the story-writing, I just don’t believe it’s what happening.

That said, one of my own speculations has been dashed by the latest show. I was prepared to think that there was some sort of gateway, that you had to go through, and that it was underwater (hence the submarine), and that the island had no other contact with our reality, save when the control system of the swan hatch broke down (as in Desmond’s failure to enter the code on time that let flight 815 through). But since Sayid and Faraday have both made straight, on-the-surface trips to and from the freighter, I guess that one’s out.

Resume theorizing.

O============

@219 undaunted related:

>That explains the cargo crew person we can barely see sitting away from the survivors. It also explains why cargo door was used, rather than the passenger door, for the survivor's exit from the plane. The cargo door opened because there was cargo: Two coffins.

Then the story would have to be that the 6 brought two dead bodies with them on the raft that they got from the fishing boat wreckage? Somehow I doubt that. And even if so, Jin could not be one of them, since according to the dates on his memorial stone, the 6’s story is that he died in the crash.

O============

@225 smitty brought up the horrifying thought:

>I thought Parvati was one of the Oceanic 6?

Please let her be one of the two that died on the island.

O============

@243 Clementine scripted:

>A tunneling mound of dirt enters stage left, and up pops BUGS BUNNY #15: “Eh, what’s up, Doc? Pardon me for boddering ya, but did you say you was gonna move the island?”

By universal convention, Bug’s first words have to be “I knew I shoulda’ taken a left toin at Albuquerque!”

Got your Marvin (my, and Jerry Pournelle’s, favorite WB character) perfect.

#261. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 18, 2008 2:34 AM

Just went back and watched the pilot episode parts one and two today, I believe now that the sounds heard by the castaways in the middle of the first night was the island being moved. I'm guessing that it was done by Ben in order to ensure that no one found the survivors and by extension the Island. This might explain why the Oceanic Six were "rescued" in the Indian Ocean instead of the Pacific Ocean. I think it may have been moved a couple of thousand miles west. This would also explain the cover story of the plane crashing in the wrong ocean.

Following up what other have said, Jack does seem to be lying next to Ben's stick, he also runs by what appears to be one of Christian's white shoes hanging from a tree branch. But most importantly he seems to be expecting the crash scene to be to his right when he emerges from the jungle and seems "surprised" when it isn't there, but then hears it when he moves to his left. Could this be history reoccurring, but slightly differently?

#262. Posted by: unladenswallow at May 18, 2008 3:21 AM

@Michael can't be killed/Keamy's device:

Keamy couldn't kill Michael. So what is Michael's purpose still? I'm pretty sure he dies in the finale, after one last interaction with Walt. Walt is credited for the finale, right?

So if Ben/Alpert know that Michael can't die untill the time is right, maybe they use him to topple Keamy and his explosive device. Michael runs up to Keamy, who tries to activate the device, but can't, because Michael can't die. While caught off guard by this, Keamy's taken down by Locke or someone else. In any case, I have a feeling that Michael is supposed to (help) take Keamy out. Maybe Michael is supposed to die at the hands of Walt, like Locke and Ben had to kill their fathers.
---------------------------------------

@ Baton next to Jack on the beach:

Very intruiging. I'm not sure if it is the baton, but after rewatching the scene, the way Jack is presented, is kind of suspicious. Maybe he has been there before, without knowing it. Kinda reminds me of Roland, the main character in Stephen King's Dark Tower Books (which every living person on earth should definitely read).
---------------------------------------

@ 06 not getting off the Island at all:

The future flashes must be real. Ben went out of his way to visit and recruit Said off Island. I think the FF 06 scenes are real, but the Island's tentacles are definitely reaching out for them, probably because it wants Aaron back.
---------------------------------------

@ What happens to the Mercs when the Island moves:

Maybe only those who are in the Orchid Station or Temple at the time of the moving can survive the Island moving. Maybe everyone else on the Island instantly dies or is lost in time/space (become ghosts) when the Island moves through time and/or space. Ofcourse, that wouldn't make sense, if the Island indeed moved, when Desmond turned the failsafe key a while back.
---------------------------------------
@ 2 people responsible for Jin's death:

Damn, it could be anyone. Most likely, I think, are Jack (making the hard decision to leave Jin and others behind), Locke (moving the Island while he knew that not everyone was saved yet) or Widmore (who sent the Mercs that kill Jin among others. Sun might have learned this from Ben or Alpert. She might actually be working for them in the future)
---------------------------------------
@ 2 other survivors who died post crash:
Totally lost on that one. Need. more. facts.
---------------------------------------
@ Who was in the coffin at the funeral nobody went to?

Could it be Said? The only one waiting for him at his return from the Island was Nadia and she's dead. + He became an assassin, so he wouldn't be socializing much. Maybe, after he's done his job, he bites the bug-eyed bullet. I don't know if it fits with the established timeline though.
---------------------------------------

#263. Posted by: Robislost at May 18, 2008 4:56 AM

It seems likely as someone posted earlier and with the Danny featuring prominently in the story-line, that the island may be moved in TIME.

Regarding the explosives on the ship, I think that they were intended for the island, to blow up the island. Wasn't there a reference to that in the secondary plans?

Also, regarding one of the 8 survivors of the crash - part of the faux cover story - wasn't there a prior flash that indicated that Kate's Marshall survived but didn't make it?

Comments?

#264. Posted by: WendyE at May 18, 2008 10:21 AM

@ 263. Posted by: Robislost

I don't think it would be Said in the coffin. Jack would have considered Said a friend. I'm not sure of the time frames in Said's FF's, but the services he provides for Ben appear to be involved/required in future plot lines.

But, I do think the probability of Michael being in the coffin have risen! His death seems eminent. I’m not so sure even his mother or Walt would visit him. And he has a problem making friends. I’m preparing to say goodbye to Michael in this seasons finale.

#265. Posted by: DW at May 18, 2008 10:40 AM

I don't see how they can spend an entire season on how the O6 get back to the island unless - Ben gets off and can't find his way back either. If Sayid is working for Ben, why can't he take them back?

Also, we now know that Jack did know, during Kate's trial, that Aaron was his nephew.

#266. Posted by: pebspostal at May 18, 2008 10:40 AM

Ben would ALWAYS be able to get back to the island. Don't even go there!! ;)

#267. Posted by: meg at May 18, 2008 10:43 AM

This season's cliffhanger could involve who is left in control of the island.

If Widmore gains/regains control of the island, Ben could find himself in exile. Future Ben could be using Sayid to find and regain control of the island for himself.

#268. Posted by: DW at May 18, 2008 10:49 AM

Am I really the only one who is hoping that Ben's "who do you think" partner on the hill is MIKHAIL?

#269. Posted by: BadAstronaut at May 18, 2008 10:52 AM

198. Posted by: "old" Christine

You are right, the raft is different. Maybe the helicopter has a raft that they use.

203. Posted by: Neon Leon

Desmond had a lot of visions and I think he figured out he could NOT save Charlie. Since he sooooo desperately wants to get to Penny, I think he may have lied and told Charlie what he thought would make Charlie help him. We did not see that vision, of Claire and the heli, did we? I don't remember it,and we saw all the other visions.

205. Posted by: Apollo

Apollo, you are never boring. Anything to exercise our minds and question what is moral or just,or makes us think, is never boring. What IS amazing, is that these kind of discussions come from the boob tube!! The black whole in our homes where all thought escapes and we become zombies. I love the LOST writers. And maybe "I" would not be as altruistic or brave or heroic as the characters in this show, I would like to think I "Could be".

Play outside more :)
→ 210. Posted by: Robislost
It's raining !;)

→ 211. Posted by: notsoeasy
And someone said they couldn't see Sun in the picture. She's there. On the other side of Kate.
Thanks for the picture!!! I still don't see her but I see what you are talking about.

→ 220. Posted by: undauntedAnd when they are called, the path back will be opened to them.

Yes, and maybe the man of science has to hit bottom before he can truly believe and be of use.

→ 228. Posted by: Clementine
I think the crazy SOB is really planning to destroy the island and the freighter.

Well, if he can't get the island for Widmore, he can't let anyone leave to tell the world about the island. And Ben put Michael on the boat to blow it up, So the freighter must be destroyed.

236 - Landed, by the way, in the same position...flat on his back arms outstretched, as Ben landed in the Sahara.

Maybe that's why the losties "seemed" to survive the crash so well?

260. Posted by: Mizzed

I like this too.

#270. Posted by: berkyo at May 18, 2008 11:04 AM

Could this be history reoccurring, but slightly differently?
→ 262. Posted by: unladenswallow

this is REALLY interesting and eye opening. Must watch again.

Also, I can't seem to open any of the little url's. Is it my pc? I tried a"." instead of* but still no go. I will go find the mobisode and see what's there.

#271. Posted by: berkyo at May 18, 2008 11:09 AM

Holy crap. They are right! there is a black thing like Ben's magic ninja stick!

#272. Posted by: berkyo at May 18, 2008 11:15 AM

Stephen King's Dark Tower Books

What a great series. Not done yet, don't say anymore.

#273. Posted by: berkyo at May 18, 2008 11:17 AM

Cecil Rose:

I concede that it doesn't make sense that Jin would have been one of the two alive but then dead. If he had been, Sun would have just said he died after they got ashore. I concede it doesn't make sense but I'm not ready to let go of that just yet!
_____

I didn't mean to suggest that the survivors' story would include a part where they disinterred and hauled 2 dead bodies to the next island!

I'm suggesting that the story is that Oceanic Airlines arranged to fetch those bodies & is returning the remains to the next of kin. If not on that
C-130 then on some other transport.

Because if they invent two bodies only to leave them rotting on a deserted Indonesian island they are going to enrage the families of the dead and encourage some of them to go looking for the remains.

So if they haven't got two dead bodies they have to explain, then why did they invent two dead bodies?

#274. Posted by: undaunted at May 18, 2008 11:53 AM

I don't know whether this one has come up here before. A friend of mine recently made a comparison between Walt and Matthew Abaddon, stating that they may be the same person.

#275. Posted by: crawfordicon at May 18, 2008 11:58 AM

→ 205. Apollo: Morality, free will, etc.:

Not boring at all, & hopefully we'll be discussing issues like that over the l-o-n-g break ahead.

→ 261. Cecil Rose: Island submarine:

I wouldn't yet rule out a submarine passageway...perhaps the freighter came close enough to the island (using the correct surface bearing) so be "in the island bubble," so to speak, where time & distance are linear again. Or maybe the "subway" only runs on Wednesdays & Saturdays. Who knows?

→ 263. Robislost: Who died post-crash?

As another poster pointed out way up above, wouldn't there have had to have been three people who died post-crash for the numbers to work out right? 8 survived...minus 3 who died...=5, plus Aaron's birth (1)...=O6.

Random question: Why is it so important that Kate be the one to be Aaron's mother that the O6 cover-up includes some extremely shaky lies? And wouldn't it be pretty easy to disprove Kate's biological motherhood through a DNA test?


#276. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 18, 2008 12:41 PM

Way back when, wasn't there a comment by the writers that there was something in the pilot eposide that no one had spotted?

Also, aren't we suppose to have flashbacks with Danielle's arrival on the island and the Black Rock in S5?

Walt told John not to open the hatch. What if everything since the opening of the hatch is the dream scene? Why would they have Walt say that if there wasn't a significant reason for it? Or, was it just to show us that Walt is special?

I think Sun has found out that her father is connected to the island in some way and is furious that she had to leave her husband behind. She's being forced to live a lie and her baby is being denied a father.

They could always say Joanna was one of the people that died because her body was swept out to sea. I don't know how Charlie is going to be explained except that his appearance to Penny will probably be swept under the rug by Widmore.

It's also interesting that Jack's father kept telling him 'you don't have what it takes' and Juliette mentions to Alpert that 'I'm not a leader.' John wants to be a hunter not a farmer. Many of these people are taking on a different life role than the one they were living. Sawyer is changing, Kate has settled down. Sun has blossomed.

Also, does everyone realize that this show has brought people of all ages, religions and cultures into open and thoughtful discussions. Maybe the boob tube can be useful after all.

#277. Posted by: pebspostal at May 18, 2008 12:51 PM

@273:
Good for you, Sai Berkyo. I wish I could go back and experience the journey again, do ya kennit? Once you've finished the books, you should also check out the Gunslinger Born Comics. Excellent stuff!
Long days and pleasant nights to ya.

#278. Posted by: Robislost at May 18, 2008 1:15 PM

Theory: The underwater wreckage is not a fake.

First, Cecil Rose, thanks for that astute observation of logic that if the Others were able to time travel at will, they could have thwarted the freighter altogether. I think you're on to something. On the other hand, Ben was able to get at least one man on the boat (who knows, there could be another) and he didn't blow it up (yet), so maybe there's a reason he allowed the freighterous ones to find the island.

Here's a wacky theory: What if the wreckage found at the bottom of the ocean was really Oceanic 815 and the plane ALSO landed on the island? Going on the theory that perhaps Ben moved the island after the crash, what if the island was moved backwards in time, creating a parallel time horizon in which the "real" 815 did actually crash at the bottom of the ocean? In this theory we have two or more time horizons being played out "simultaneously." One is no more real than the other. In one, all the survivors are dead and at the bottom of the ocean. In another they're alive on the island. In the third, the Oceanic six -- through the Orchid porthole/time machine/flux capacitor -- find themselves in yet another time horizon, the too-perfect-world of There's No Place Like Home, Part 1. Yet somehow four of them sense they're not in the "right" time horizon, that they're in the wrong "fate," so they react accordingly. Hugo goes nuts. Jack tries to go back and fix it. Sayid works with Ben to "re-save" Nadia. Sun wants to go back for Jin and somehow needs control of Paik Industries to do so. Only Kate doesn't want to go back, because her fake world is better than her real world was.

Admittedly this is pretty off-the-wall, but I'm thinking about it in the context of the Orchid video, which I believe we'll see during the season finale and will become canon, where two timelines can exist but cannot come in contact with one another. Going further, perhaps the reason the Oceanic 6 have to keep the real story a secret has something to do with needing to stay away from other possible timelines, which could result in their being dead, yet Jack, who is miserable in this timeline, is defiant and insists on doing just that when he says "We have to go back."

#279. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 18, 2008 1:28 PM

Wow... I missed a lot in one day.

@ Mr_Naysayer - 229
HI! That theory seems very legit. I think you could be on to something...

I like it! Pure genius.

@ KSR - 240
You're such a party pooper!

Mr_Naysayer -- I guess you got 2 biggest fans! Haha.

I don't see anyone else in the photo... where is this "mystery man"? I must be blind.

Since Friday, I've been watching season 3, and I noticed a lot of things.

I'll post them later since I'm only in the middle of "Enter 77" but everything seems so much more relevant now.

Regarding Ben's death stick: He used it to beat up Sawyer in "Every Man for Himself". That stick made the scene all the more impressive.

Sorry if someone already said that.

#280. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 18, 2008 2:31 PM

GRAA Mac! We're gonna miss you. Thanks Vacc for filling in.

Read all the comments so here's some "Lost Thots" from France.

→ 143 Richard Alpert bothers me. He is ageless, as Abbadon appears to be.

I don't think Abbadon is ageless. We've seen him in a couple of FB's that weren't that far off time wise. It was just a few years before the crash that Locke broke his back, right?

→ 144

I thought Kate was looking for the police and relieved they weren't there.

→ 185

That's so funny, my roommate's "lost" in Lostpedia right now looking at all the dharma logos, including the connection to the I Ching. He too, was intrigued by the binary aspect of it.

I have two theories at the moment, one big and the other minor. The big one is about the O6 and the Purple Sky Incident (PSI). I think the PSI figures large in the O6 return to civilization. Think about it, Kate, Jack and Hurley were with the Others when Locke blew up the hatch and caused the PSI. Sun and Sayid were traveling around in boat looking at 4 toed statues. They were far away from the PSI AND they got off the island. I don't think this is a coincidence.

The problem with this theory is, why aren't Sawyer and Jin part of the O6, as they were away from the PSI, AND why IS Aaron? Aaron was on the beach and
pretty close to the PSI. So why is he off the island? (for that matter, why is he with Kate and not with Claire? but that's another discussion)

Maybe Sawyer and Jin are the two who didn't make it when 8 people fell in the water in the Pacific, I mean the Indian, I mean they found the exit doors and drowned, no wait, died on the island...no wait...

Anyway, I think the PSI and the people who were exposed to the magnetic force are somehow protected or maybe pulled with the island when it moves. If you're not "magnetized" maybe you fall in the water when the island takes off. But
what about Aaron? Don't know.

Ok, little theory, I think Kate is working with Ben in the FF. I don't know if it's him talking to her on the phone, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're connected. She can't just live out her life in California raising turnip head.

Random thots and questions:

Speaking of turnip head, Aaron looks weird in clothes. Yeah we saw him as a two year old in the FF but little ol' turnip head looks strange in real world clothes being held by a Kate who isn't all sweaty and dirty.

I think I just figured out that Ben can't die, yet. The island has work for him.

Was the "typhoon" in the Oceanic press conference the tsunami?

More thots after refreshing:

→ 274 So if they haven't got two dead bodies they have to explain, then why did they invent two dead bodies?

Good point! This makes no sense according to Jack's testimony at the trial.

However, I think we're gonna have to let go of all the logic surrounding Kate's "maternity" questions.

→ 277

Yup, TPTB said there was a major clue in the pilot that would explain why they ended up on the island. But, at the time, I passed it off as a problem with the time zone. It should have been the middle of the night when they crashed, right?

→ 279

I think you're onto something Scooby!

#281. Posted by: En Provence at May 18, 2008 2:48 PM

Thanks Mac, for a great season of reviews!

And GO SOX!!!

#282. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 18, 2008 2:54 PM

@10 Apollo, @42 KMFPL, @69 chopkins, and @191, 219, 224, 274 undaunted :
I saw a lot of comments this week questioning the reason why the cover story claims there were 8 original survivors of the crash, and also questions about who the additional people were supposed to have been.

Here's my farfetched guess - In Season 3's Claire-centric episode Par Avion, a note was tied to a migratory Sea Bird. The birds had been tagged. As Claire pointed out "Scientists tag these birds so they can track them. So, when they eventually land in Australia or New Zealand or wherever, somebody’s gonna gather them up."

The note was written by Claire and reads : "To whom it may concern, we are survivors of Oceanic Flight 815. We have survived on this island for 80 days. We were 6 hours into the flight when the pilot said we were off course and turned back towards Fiji. We hit turbulence and crashed. We’ve been waiting here, all this time, waiting for rescue that has not come. We do not know where we are, we only know you have not found us. We’ve done our best to live on this island. Some of us have come to accept that we may never leave it. Not all of us have survived since the crash, but there is new life too, and with it, there is hope. We are alive. Please don’t give up on us."

If the birds were able to get onto the Island, it's plausible that they can leave it as well. Perhaps the note had actually been found by someone. If so, it could be portrayed as a hoax, or it could have been followed up aggressively - even leaked to the press.

The note makes two things clear - at least one birth occurred, and at least two had died since the crash. (This can be disputed, but I put the minimum death toll at two at the time of the note because the wording "Not all of us survived" suggests that more than one person died - otherwise it would make more sense to say that "One person died").

So that accounts for two deaths, plus someone had to write the note. None of the O6 could take credit for the note - too easy to compare handwriting. This requires one more person to have been present beyond 80 days - the note's author. Although Claire wrote the note, it's apparent that the O6 did not identify her as a survivor of the crash. And while they could claim not to know the names of the first two that died, they would be expected to identify the note's author after having spent at least 80 days together.

In this case, what name would they give? It would need to be someone relatively obscure whose handwriting sample would not be produced by some family member for comparison. My guess is a con man named James Ford. (I suppose Locke would also fit the bill, but since he was paralyzed, his surviving 80 days would be less believable)

Who are the two that died right after the crash? If this is revealed at all - and it may never be - I'm betting it's Nikki and Paulo. Perhaps they "spoke" to Miles and told him that there were diamonds sprinkled on their corpses. Also, they were both minor celebrities. The public funerals of Nikki and Paulo would have awesome media value and could help quell public outrage that bodies were not recovered from the wreckage.

I believe the most compelling reason for Nikki and Paulo being chosen as the first two deceased on the Island is that they already have experience in being buried!!

#283. Posted by: vacc at May 18, 2008 4:11 PM

It's always nice to see Ensign Ro pop up in a hit show. I wish more people would cast Michelle Forbes!

I really enjoyed Hurley's future flash, walking in and finding the coconut, hearing the whispers, and then the reveal of the inappropriately themed surprise party. His mom telling him Jesus Christ is not a weapon (no, he's a mule for heroin!), and the big flipout with the odometer. It was as fun to watch as Claire's mom's revelation was painful to.

As far as the two people responsible for Jin's death, well we need to wait and see if he's really dead on not. If he is, then whoever pulled the trigger (so to speak) could be the other person she is referring to. If he is alive on the island, then she could be referring to herself (as Zeb specualted in post 209). It's been a while since I rewatched those episodes, but IIRC, Jin had turned the trip into a second honeymoon, but Sun was planning on disappearing in Sydney. If she had gone through with the plan, Jin might not have gotten on that flight, instead staying to look for her. Or am I remembering wrong?

@Cecil Rose/4 (look up, waaay up!)

I don't think the Lostaways would have let Daniel and Char get on the boat and take off together. She's a kind of insurance that he is going to return to the island.

@Jin's Flashlight/154

He was holding a rabbit's foot. After all, the last time five of the people in the back of his plane were airborn, the plane crashed in the ocean. I'd want a good luck charm too!

@Gabriel/163

The other person on the plane looked a lot like Jacob to me! ;)

@Mr_Naysayer/229

Wait, you think that Kate's Aaron is really Claire's Aaron?!? And that Kate wasn't really 6 months pregnant when she was arrested in Australia?!? And didn't really give birth on the Island?!? And didn't name her kid the same thing as the other pregnant girl who also gave birth on the Island?!? No way!!!

@Cecil Rose/261

What are you doing back here so soon? And an even bigger question, how did Parvati end up with 5 votes?!?

For those of you who can't see the guy, he is behind Michelle Forbes (and to our left of her) near the window. We can only see the dark outline of his legs/feet.

As for the feeding of Aaron, it's obvious that Claire has been pumping and dumping all along, so they ahve plenty of food stored up! ;)

And re: Jumping the Shark, in my mind it's more than just where the quality slips, it's when the quality scripts are gone so TPTB throw in something out of left field to "reinvigorate" the show, or to get it on the "right track". Like Bobby coming out of the shower, Laverne and Shirley moving to Hollywood, Roseanne winning the lottery, Dave and Maddy becoming a couple, Murphy Brown becoming a caring mother, or half the cast of Designing Women being replaced.

I don't know how, if you have been watching the show for four seasons now, you could possibly complain about them moving the Island if you've already bought into everything else!

#284. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 18, 2008 4:33 PM

The other two survivors :

Eight people got off the island and they were on their way back when two of them died suddenly because they were already dead. Piece of cake. This show is so easy to understand.

Mr. Nay_Sayer:

Kate got pregnant in the bear cage. She went in one door at the Orchid and went out another door 9 months later with her baby she named after Claire’s baby who went down with the ship with Sun. Oops. Ok it all works except for Sun.

#285. Posted by: SamFin at May 18, 2008 6:20 PM

I am continuing to re-watch and just finished 'Exodus Part 2', end of season one, and as we all sit here with more questions than answers still, just wanted to point out how far we have come, this is an excerpt from Mac's review, a reminder that we just need to 'enjoy the ride' :-) (Thanks Mac!)

"And now we've got some Very Big Questions: Who are these people? Where did they come from? What do they want with Walt? Where did they get the boat? And the fuel? And the guns? Why did the bearded guy speak with an American accent? Was the woman on the boat Rousseau's long-lost daughter? Is Sawyer critically wounded? How will the rafters get back to the island? Will Driveshaft's next album go platinum?"

As always, thanks to you all, I continue to admire your brilliance...

#286. Posted by: lostinvt at May 18, 2008 6:21 PM

@@@@@@@@@

@ 285 SamFin: Mr. Nay_Sayer:

Kate got pregnant in the bear cage. She went in one door at the Orchid and went out another door 9 months later with her baby she named after Claire’s baby who went down with the ship with Sun. Oops. Ok it all works except for Sun.

----

We must agree to disagree 'cuz... I hate to make any crazy hypothesis or to assume anything ('cuz we all know what happens when you assume) BUT, my stance is that Kate's baby Aaron (totally different baby in regards to Claire's baby Aaron, which we all agree now that they are not one in the same)is actually Ben's baby from their dinner and wine and candlelight on the beach that one afternoon... seeing that the island sped up the birthing terms, it only took about 100 days for the baby to grow into full term... so, with that said, THE AARON WE SEE NOW IS KATE AND BEN'S LOVE CHILD! Obviously, it all makes sense.

Hey, Meg and Ilovebenlinusxxx - good one, eh? eh? HA!

@@@@@@@


#287. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 18, 2008 7:01 PM

Okay, so as I said before, I've been watching season 3 instead of studying and doing homework the last 2 days. I'm only upto Expose, so yeah...

Here's what I've noticed so far.
Everything just seems so much more relevant now... I think we just need a "memory refresher" on the details.

Sorry if someone said this stuff already.

-----------

As I said before, in "Every Man for Himself", Ben used his "death stick" to knock out Sawyer in the cage.

... Ben has a way with his "death stick" =]

-----------

- Yemi was missing from the plane when Eko was "haunted" by him
- Christian was missing from the casket when Jack/Claire were "haunted" by him.

Connection?

-----------

"Shephard wasn't on his or Jacob's list" - Pickett, "I Do"

-----------

What is Juliet's real last name? Since her ex-husband (Ed)'s last name was Burke.

-----------

So there's pretty much one obvious thing in common with every character: their lives suck... or at least they're screwed up.

I guess you can say that about everyone in this world... but still. It seems like the island was the best thing that happened to them... but only a few appreciate it.

I didn't think that before about Rose and Bernard (well about their lives sucking, not that it's the best thing that happened to them, since Rose lost her cancer), but now I don't know anymore.

Seems like everyone's "running" from something.

Especiall Locke. His life pretty much sucked to the max. Hell, I'd love the island too if I were him. Who could blame him? He got some major betrayal issues.

------------

Did Ben/Richard arrange for Ed to get hit by the bus? (Like Juliet said) in "Not in Portland".

They never officially admitted to it, but it seems obvious.

-------------

What are "the others" really capable of?

From what we know ($3.2 million thing), they're pretty much capable of anything.

But where does "pretty much" end?

Money and resources can get you anywhere. (Ben, Widmore, Paik)

--------------

How come nothing happened to Kate and Sawyer when they went back to "their island" from the Hydra? I know, Desmond was closer to the "implosion", but why Minkowski (sp?) and the other dude (his partner?) Were they exposed to some type of radiation as well?

It didn't seem like Kate and Sawyer cared about the bearing they went on, but I guess it was only 2 miles.

So I guess the end of the "snowglobe" is outside of the two islands.

-------------

"Flashes Before Your Eyes" seems so relevant now.

Did we ever find out who Isabell is, other than "the sheriff"?

-------------

In support of my Vincent = Smokey theory:

Vincent seemed like he wanted to "lead" Hugo into the jungle because he knew his past with cars.

-------------

I agree with the theory that Paulikki is going to end up significant.

-------------

In "Enter 7", Kate, Locke, and Sayid were looking for Bensylvania, and they were trying to stay on the bearing of 305 because of how the light shined onto Eko's stick and the carvings Locke saw when they were burring him.

"Compass bearings provided by carvings on a stick." - Sayid

And that's when they found Mikhail and the Flame station.

-------------

I feel like my ----'s are getting uneven.

-------------

Jacob's list is supposedly the list of people who would "understand" why one would want to come back/stay on the island.

-------------

Claire: My mom WAS a libarian
Sun: Was?
Then Claire changes the subject.

I guess she thinks her mom is dead. But that could be because her mom was in a coma when she left. (Wrong?)

--------------

Alex: You know he's manipulating you, right?

John: How's that?

Alex: That's what my father does, he manipulates people... He makes you think it's your idea, but it's his.

John: I'll have to keep that in mind.

- Man from Talahassee

Relates to when John told Hugo to go back to camp... and that whole discussion with Ben.

"I'm not you", "you're certainly not" blah blah blah.

---------------

Anthony Cooper had the same scotch as Widmore, and that Sawyer found on the plane (was in his stash). I know we know that already, but I thought I'd point it out anyway.

---------------

About this episode, and the past -- Mr. Paik makes the worst facial expressions. The right side of his face is like scrunched up and deformed.

He's a little confusing to look at.

---------------

There are a few people that don't seem to like to "answer" to Ben.

Two that are obvious:
1. Juliet
2. Richard Alpert

We don't know much about RA, but that's what it seems like.

---------------

At the time we thought "Expose" was a filler, but seriously, it may end up being very significant.

I don't think the writers would have wasted an entire episode just to make us think that some random extras that had a few lines in previous episodes have a criminal past.

Maybe something will come of the Medusa Spiders?

Maybe the diamonds were sosmone else's (i.e. Widmore) before they were that old dude's. (Howie Zukerman or something?)

I'm surprized they were never curious about anything they saw. All they cared about were the diamonds.

They were the first to see the Pearl, and the plane, and so many other things.

Paulo even heard Bena nd Juliet talking in the Pearl when he was hiding the diamonds in the toilet. He heard their WHOLE PLAN. But he just decided to snatch the walkie and not tell anyone.

---------------

Where did we hear that before:
Ben: The same way I get anyone else to do anything -- find out what he's emotionally invested in, then exploit it.

---------------

The only significant thing regarding character development that happened in "Expose" was that Charlie told Sun that he and Sawyer were the ones who attacked her, not the others. Everything else was about Paulikki.

Seriously, they wouldn't waste an episode unless it's going to be important later on.

--------------

Nikki: You always whine about not being included, now's our chance.

If he really wanted to be "included", he could have warned everyone about Ben's plan!

... That's been bothering me.

I suppose then he'd have to explain why he was at the pearl in the first place, but still.

--------------

So here are a few characters that may be more significant than we thought:
1. Bernard
2. Nikki and Paulo
3. Richard Alpert

...and probably more that I can't think of.

=D (Evil smiley).

#288. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 18, 2008 7:48 PM

@Robislost/210
"Don't take it too seriously, you know? Play outside more :)"

Good advice; a day of fresh air has cleared my mind and refeshed my spirit.

@welh/213
"I think the biggest issue of the show going forward is that the underlying premise of the show is being kept secret from the audience. The longer the foundational premise remains hidden, the more speculation and doubt arises in the fan base."

I have no objection to the writers keeping the "underlying premise" a secret ... I just want to believe there IS one. Will address this shortly ... but first, as an aside, I have another question for you (welh) ...

In the "Cabin Fever" thread (#378), you say "When the numbers were not imputed to vent the EM, an alarm would sound, an internal barrier would drop and symbols would appear. I translated those Egyptian symbols to say 'He escapes place of death.'" I have several comments/questions on this one. Where did you get your translation? According to Lostpedia, "producer Damon Lindelof translated this sequence to mean 'underworld', which is now considered the official translation." They also post "Another translation has also been found in Raymond O. Faulkner's 'A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian'" ... honestly, I can't make any sense of that translation, can you ... anyone, anyone? I took my own non-Egyptologist stab at it, based upon info found in my copy of "Understanding Hieroglyphs" by Hilary Wilson ... I came up with my (very unprofessional) translation "Overseer of life/death." The really interesting thing (maybe), is that the phonetic translation is "swadha," a Sanskrit term used in Hindu ceremonies as a benediction for presentation of offerings to ancestors/forefathers. Once again, I find the (possible) melding of ostensibly disparate religious traditions (in this case, Egyptian and Hindu) worth mentioning. I also find it odd that someone (probably from the Dharma Initiative?) would modify modern Western computer equipment to display this message ... "Dharma" has obvious Hindu correlation, so why not just display the equivalent word in Devanagari script ... why bring hieroglyphs into the picture? Why not just have English text (maybe "ALERT" or something similar)? Bears to my next point ...

@Mizzed/260
"Clementine/246: 'I’m starting to wonder if the whole off-island storyline is even real.' and SamFin/256: 'I also think the flash forwards were unreal. And just a projection of what could have happened but didn’t cause the island did some very funny things when they moved it.'

I like that line of thought, especially as it seems to explain such a large series of awkward events. It would also be the ultimate response to those viewers who believe that the writers have suddenly turned careless or lazy."

Thank you ... no, really ... was hoping someone would come up with this type of response. This is what I meant when I earlier wrote "they 'broke the rules' with this epi. Maybe they'll be clever enough to actually write that sentiment into the show somehow," but didn't have a solution to the problem at the time. You (et al) have provided an option, and it got me to thinking further along similar lines.

The first thing that popped into my head upon reading your post was the "X-Files" episode "Field Trip," where Mulder and Scully crawl into a cave filled with a hallucinogenic substance/fungus/whatever, that deludes them into believing they have escaped the cave, so they will remain still while it slowly digests their bodies. In their "flash forwards" they escape the cave, and everything just seems to "fall into place" for Mulder ... they find definitive proof of ET, etc., and run into no trouble from TPTB. Basically, Mulder determines this is too good to be true (which it is), and convinces Scully to fight against their "dream world" where all seems to be right, while in reality it couldn't be further from the truth.

There could be something similar going on in Lost right now, but of what nature? There are SO many plot discontinuities and/or unbelievable scenarios playing out in their FFs, that it leads me to believe the "O6" are in some kind of similar limbo. Apparently (from what we've seen) Jack and Hurley are the first to pick up on this (ala Mulder in "Field Trip"), and perhaps in a future ep (season) convince the others it is all some kind of overly wishful thinking (Kate gets to keep Aaron? Sun overthrows her dad?), leading back to the island. Maybe it has something to do with the course correction concept ... I have no idea, but now tend to think this is the way the writers are going.

Finally, skipping channels today came across "Predator vs. Alien," which posits Aztec, Cambodian, and Egyptian pyramids/technology all their roots in alien "Predator" intervention on the planet. I know, I know ... lame, and done a million times before, but now wonder if some variation is the reason for the apparent olio of religious themes seen in Lost. As I've said before, we seem to have almost every known religion represented on the show in some form, as well as the "unknown" four-toed people influence! Perhaps the island is supposed to be the cradle of civilization (and I know, mirrors the Eden theme, but without the specific Judeo-Christian bent). Just a thought. If they can pull it off somehow that makes sense, it would put to rest my objection over the writers just "throwing stuff out there" in order to keep the audience guessing.

What still remains is an over-all direction for the show ... what (if anything) is the "underlying premise" of the show? Is it about "free-will," or lack thereof? Is it about right vs. wrong? Morality vs. reason? I hope we get there someday ... still too much ambiguity in the overall plot to speculate further, IMO.

#289. Posted by: ealgumby at May 18, 2008 7:56 PM

@BluSerene/76
"They made it to the island, 3 died at some point, leaving 5, and then Aaron was born, giving us the Oceanic 6 (not necessarily in that order)."

@Alaïs_Longthought/276
"As another poster pointed out way up above, wouldn't there have had to have been three people who died post-crash for the numbers to work out right? 8 survived...minus 3 who died...=5, plus Aaron's birth (1)...=O6."

Thanks for pointing this out/reminding me of it! Could it be that the "bad math" eventually leads to the downfall of the O6 lie?

@Alaïs_Longthought/276
"Random question: Why is it so important that Kate be the one to be Aaron's mother that the O6 cover-up includes some extremely shaky lies? And wouldn't it be pretty easy to disprove Kate's biological motherhood through a DNA test?"

Part II to (potential) eventual downfall of the O6 lie ... given the official timeline, it also makes me wonder why they have decided to press this issue ... STILL makes no damned sense (could be related to ideas in my last post, but still begs the WHY).

#290. Posted by: ealgumby at May 18, 2008 8:12 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/288

Paulikki and the diamonds ...

I have pondered this a bit as well, mostly in regard to Miles' $3.2M comment. I don't know ... the diamonds were supposed to be worth $8M, so the 3.2 correlation doesn't work exactly (unless 4.8 are missing?). Also, $3.2M/$8M is peanuts to Widmore/Paik, so I can't see this a significant plot point, unless ... ???

#291. Posted by: ealgumby at May 18, 2008 8:17 PM

Ealgumby/289: "Apparently (from what we've seen) Jack and Hurley are the first to pick up on this (ala Mulder in "Field Trip"), and perhaps in a future ep (season) convince the others it is all some kind of overly wishful thinking (Kate gets to keep Aaron? Sun overthrows her dad?), leading back to the island."

That's a very interesting thought, that the Oceanic 6's flash forwards represent self-fulfilled prophecies or wishes.

Taking it one step further, each member initially gets their deepest wish- Kate is acquitted and keeps Aaron. Sayid finds Nadya. Jack returns to his medical practice and gets Kate to commit to him (in a world of no Sawyer, BTW). Hurley is surrounded by loving family and friends, including possibly the first sincere gesture of caring from his formerly deadbeat father. Sun has a healthy baby girl and the ultimate revenge over her father.

But Nadya is killed. The numbers- and ghosts- chase Hurley. Jack loses it when Sawyer symbolically reenters his relationship with Kate. Will Kate and Sun's worlds also begin to decline?

One other thought. From the time of "Through the Looking Glass", all the flash forwards have progressed chronologically backwards in time, like a tape being rewound.

These flashforwards started with the farthestmost point: the suicidal, bearded Jack trying to get back to the island, and then have progressed backwards, finally reaching the rescue and press conference last week.

The only time this order has been broken was episode 10, the Jack/Kate relationship episode, which chronologically appears to fall between last season's final episode and episode 1 of this season.

Certainly the writers retain the right to jump back and forth in time at their own discretion and for dramatic license, but why shuffle this one episode?

This episode features a complete contradiction from the Jack portrayed in episode 4, who refused to have a relationship with Kate or Aaron. It is also the flashforward where Hurley denies the reality of his doctor, his being in a mental institution, and their entire lives off-island. Coincidence?

HURLEY: 'Cause we're dead... all of us. All the Oceanic Six--we're all dead. We never got off that island.

JACK: Hurley... that is not true.

HURLEY: What'd you do today?

JACK: What did I do today? I, uh... (sighs) I woke up, took a shower. Uh, Kate and I fed the baby.

HURLEY: I thought you didn't want anything to do with her.

JACK: I changed my mind after the trial.

HURLEY: Living with Kate... taking care of Aaron... it all seems so perfect... just like heaven.

JACK: Just because I'm happy doesn't mean that this isn't real, Hurley.

#292. Posted by: Mizzed at May 18, 2008 10:32 PM

Did anyone notice the sea turtle on the beach when Sayid pulled up in the inflatable? Its there clear as day and then when they all rush down to the beach/boat its gone.

Also a small inflatable with a 30 litre gas tank + 30hp engine would have a maximum range of about 6 miles so that means that the freighter would be easily visible on the water from the island and the island would easily be visible from the boat and look absolutely huge!!

#293. Posted by: Russell at May 18, 2008 10:51 PM

→ 292. Posted by: Mizzed
But Nadya is killed. The numbers- and ghosts- chase Hurley. Jack loses it when Sawyer symbolically reenters his relationship with Kate. Will Kate and Sun's worlds also begin to decline?
+++++
I think Sayid said it best (for himself and all of the four adults in the OA6) with his mention of "... selling his soul to the devil".

They all bought a timeshare in Hades (Hedonism Too) when they bought into the rescue lie that got them off of the island, their big cash settlement & lifetime Golden Travel Tickets on Oceanic Air.
- - -
re: Will Kate and Sun's worlds also begin to decline?

Sun's world declined. She is now CEO of an out-dated industry facing severe competition in a declining world energy market.

Kate's world declined. She is imprisoned in the People's Republic of California for 10 years - where her windfall profits will be systematically milked from her bank account until she has to take several minimum wage jobs just to keep Aaron in Saltine's and Tang.

happy thoughts 8)

#294. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 18, 2008 10:59 PM

I don't think the survivors saying there were eight before Aaron was born will expose their lie.

Because I would definitely buy it if they explained it thus: "Of course there were 8 of us. We always counted the baby. So many lives were lost, and this tiny little thing was alive & kicking in his mother's womb. He was our hope for making it. He was our miracle. There were 8 of us that got out of that plane alive. I defy anyoneto look at this child and tell me there weren't."

#295. Posted by: undaunted at May 18, 2008 11:17 PM

@FF's not being real:

If this is the case, can someone explain to me why Ben went out of his way to find and recruit Said as an assassin?

What if the FF's are real, but the 06 just aren't completely 'there'? Like they left their souls/spirits on the Island. It is possible that the Island is some kind of gateway to the underworld/realm of the dead. (with Smokey as it's guardian, like Cerberus). Maybe in order to leave, the 06 had to make a deal to sell or loan their soul/life essence to the Island/Others, and the happy off-Island times are mere percs, provided by the Island.
Maybe the Island/Others need souls/life essence to power up the Island-moving machine :)

#296. Posted by: Robislost at May 19, 2008 7:00 AM

I think the FF's are real....but, I am also buying into the possibility that none of it is real (to contradict myself). It all centers around Hurley. Hurley is the key, the answer, the character who we all thought was there mainly for humor, not significant...

#297. Posted by: meg at May 19, 2008 8:15 AM

Just to show that you can find non-existing connections to Lost everywhere. I just remembered the name Hugo de Groot (I'm Dutch) and googled it.

Hugo de Groot (translates as Hugo the large) 1583 - 1635

A Dutch jurist and writer. His most famous work, 'De iure belli ac pacis', about law during war and peace, was the basis for many of the current, universal laws we know. He is also known for being a strong patron for unrestrained acces to the Ocean for all. Furthermore, he is famous from escaping from prison, by hiding in a chest that had carried books.

References to Hugo's name, him being large, the book of laws, war and peace, going out on the ocean, escaping through a box and check out some of the numbers in his birth and death dates... Scary stuff, I say! :)

#298. Posted by: Robislost at May 19, 2008 9:01 AM

@297Meg:

I did expect Hugo to be important to the story, fairly early on. That's because it's a typical Stephen King thing to do, and I'm sure his way of storytelling was a major influence on the way Lost was written.

#299. Posted by: Robislost at May 19, 2008 9:06 AM

Just want to give everyone a head's up: Just like last year, MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE FINALE HAVE BEEN LEAKED.

I will NOT be posting the spoilers and I ask that others avoid posting them here as well.

If someone sneaks in and posts the spoilers through the comments, please email me directly and I'll delete the comment as quickly as possible.

#300. Posted by: mac at May 19, 2008 9:20 AM

Last year I peeked at the spoilers, and I was very disappointed in myself for doing it! It ruined the "WOW" factor in the finali!! This year, I'll show restraint. So, no matter how much I ask...DON"T TELL ME THE SITE, MAC!!!

Is there one more season of this show or two??

#301. Posted by: meg at May 19, 2008 10:04 AM

Maybe Sayid's hesitant and awkward Nadia reunion is because he know's of the future, and there's nothing he can do about it.

#302. Posted by: mtncbn at May 19, 2008 10:21 AM

@279 Scooby-dude...
Great theory, I wonder if what we missed in the pilot episode could be hints to this parallel crash.....?

#303. Posted by: bean116 at May 19, 2008 10:25 AM

@270. berkyo said:

>Desmond had a lot of visions and I think he figured out he could NOT save Charlie. Since he sooooo desperately wants to get to Penny, I think he may have lied and told Charlie what he thought would make Charlie help him. We did not see that vision, of Claire and the heli, did we? I don't remember it,and we saw all the other visions.

I don’t believe we saw Desmond’s “Charlie drowning" visions, either of them, (one when trying to save Claire, one when trying to catch a bird for her).

O===============

@279 Scooby-Dude wackied:

>Here's a wacky theory: What if the wreckage found at the bottom of the ocean was really Oceanic 815 and the plane ALSO landed on the island?

Contradicted by Frank Lapidus testimony that the pilot in the underwater wreckage was not 815’s pilot.

O===============

@284 FenwayBen mentioned:

>His [Hurley’s] mom telling him Jesus Christ is not a weapon (no, he's a mule for heroin!),

That was the Virgin Mary, not JC.

>I don't think the Lostaways would have let Daniel and Char get on the boat and take off together. She's a kind of insurance that he is going to return to the island.

Good point, probably the correct reason, and excellent storytelling that the writers didn’t belabor it but left it for us (well, some of us) to figure out.

>What are you doing back here so soon? And an even bigger question, how did Parvati end up with 5 votes?!?

18 hours? We're too old for a longer celebration.

I guess with intellects of the caliber of James, Jason, Erik, and Ozzie on the jury, anything can happen.

O===============

@mac

>Just want to give everyone a head's up: Just like last year, MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE FINALE HAVE BEEN LEAKED.

And unlike last year I am staying far, far, away from them.

O===============

>@301 meg asked:

>Is there one more season of this show or two??

Two. Apparently of 17 episodes each (to make up for the two missing this season due to the writer’s strike).

#304. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 19, 2008 10:26 AM

@Cecil Rose....Contradicted by Frank Lapidus testimony that the pilot in the underwater wreckage was not 815’s pilot...

what if he did not fly that day in the parallel world. (someone stoped him or he was not available because in his parallel world he was to be the copter pilot on the freighter!?

oh this is destroying my brain and taking much time away from my job. I LOVE IT.. :)

#305. Posted by: bean116 at May 19, 2008 10:51 AM

@ 289/ ealgumby, hatch alarm translation

I started at wiki to decode the symbols. They were clearly Egyptian. I used the corresponding Gardiner german translation of the symbol codes into letters or phonetics. Using the sounds, I found one transliteration site that corresponded to all the symbol sounds with reference to the Beinlich german translation index. From those results, I concluded the message was 'He escapes place of death.'

I then thought that the Hatch was a mechanism to keep a menace (from the underworld) at bay from the island.

It does lead to the question why the connection to Egypt? Is this a clue that the island is a creation of advanced technology Egyptian pyramid building alien gods?

#306. Posted by: welh at May 19, 2008 11:00 AM

→ 280. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxxbut everything seems so much more relevant now.
Boy, you said it. I am watching one(birthday gift)and 2 (netflix) and EVERYTHING anybody says has a meaning now! They can't have written it that way.
e.g. Jin destroys Sun's garden and then helps her replant.
"What are you doing", she asks.
"I am fixing a mistake." He says. He could have said "I was a jerk pulling your plants up. I was mad, I'm sorry."
But now it sounds to me like the mistake was the crash and putting the universe back on track is fixing it. Everything alludes to something else.


#307. Posted by: berkyo at May 19, 2008 11:31 AM

Holy crap…I go out of town for the wekend and come back to over three hundred comments. I've finally caught up…had to read them all before I posted so as to avoid one of those "Sorry if someone's already said this, but…"

I thought it was a very good episode, but not one that was intended to stand on its own…more of an Act 2 kind of thing. And in typical movie/play fashion, Act 2's have a tendency to put people off. But I've seen too many movies and read too many books to be put off by this sort of thing. And I've been wham-boozled by Darlton too many times to not give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. They stretched it with Paolikki, but doggonit she was so friggin' cute I was happy to let 'em. How cool would it be if the Medusa spider put them into some kind of hibernation (no O2 required) and they were to come back as key plot points? I said at the time and I'll say it again, Nikki's resemblance to Kate was extraordinary.

I also thought the opening of the tailgate of the cargo plane was very CEotTK. I kept looking for Richard Dreyfuss to appear stuffed like a sausage in an orange jumpsuit.

The Keamy Armpit Failsafe absolutely must be tied to his heartbeat. Heartbeat stops -> C-4! explodes. Island moves -> same result. But I don't think the ship will explode quite yet b/c Kevin Johnson is on it. I don't know where Michael went…maybe he's with Claire's Aaron…I understand he can't stand Kate's Aaron…allergic to turnips.

I think Ben was communicating with Eyeliner Richard hence his merry band of armed regulators (sans tights and jerkins) coming to the rescue.

I have little doubt that the island caused Claire's mom to awaken from her coma to twist Jack's (and Kate's) panties.

Can I say it now? With all of Faraday's ferrying of people to and fro, they surely are going to need a bigger boat.

I'm working on a theory that the island is Atlantis and is some kind of alien beacon/monitoring station, and Smoky is the Gort/watchman.

I agree with so many others when I say that the geography of the whole thing's got me in a tizzy. Sydney to LA is NE, but the plane crashes to the NW? Using the same bearing to get to/away from the island? If that doesn't descibe a mirror (much like Ben's signalling device) alternate reality/multiverse I don't know what does.

I should probably get some work done now…

#308. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 19, 2008 11:44 AM

283. Posted by: vacc

I must have watched season 1 and 2 three times now and I don't remember the note! It is an explanation of the numbers of survivors. This is logical. Because in a cover up, the simpler is the best. Why invent other survivors who died? Unless Oceanic got a rebate on their insurance if more than 7 survive.

#309. Posted by: berkyo at May 19, 2008 11:44 AM

→ 305. Posted by: bean116
@Cecil Rose....Contradicted by Frank Lapidus testimony that the pilot in the underwater wreckage was not 815’s pilot...

-- what if he did not fly that day in the parallel world?

Scooby Wackadoozled:
YES! In fact I'd go even further with the wackiness and say that it was Lapidus himself who was in the wreckage (assuming he doesn't have a wedding band). He was supposed to be the pilot but something got altered and he wasn't on the flight. And if you believe the island has the ability to course correct, he's now conveniently on the island and will probably die soon.

#310. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 19, 2008 11:46 AM

I sure would have appreciated it if one of those reporters at the press conference had asked the survivors this question: "Did no one on flight 815 question the fact that their flight to LA from Sydney took them NW over the continent of Australia?

It must be a doozy of a story Oceanic dreamed up to prevent that question from being asked. I hope to hear it soon.

#311. Posted by: undaunted at May 19, 2008 11:47 AM

@288 ilovebenjiminlinusxx

Thanks for the recap... There are so many things that I forgot about that now seem like blatant clues. Can’t believe no one caught Ben’s magic stick next to Jack until now. I also agree with you that Paulikki will be very important to the story…. I think Darlton may have said that too.

Apollo, cecil and vacc – you continue to be brilliant and amaze me with your posts. Very thought provoking and even maddening at times b/c I wonder why I didn’t think of it first.

Re: the other person on the plane… just because we can see him as an audience doesn’t mean the O6 can see him. Could it be an apparition “guarding” the O6 as they leave the island. Or maybe we’re reading into it way too much and it’s just a crew member.

Re: Kate’s long arm. It’s probably Sun’s arm to the right of Kate… I don’t think that there’s any mystery there, just a bad pic. Maybe Darlton had that pic in order to distract us from things that we really should be looking for, like the magic stick next to Jack’s head in the Pilot.

Maybe due to our need to dissect every detail we’re looking a little too hard for disguised details and missing the obvious ones? Or maybe I’m not watching the same show as everyone else…. I dunno, just my 4 cents (cents have increased from 2 to 4 due to gas prices)

#312. Posted by: Skipper at May 19, 2008 11:58 AM

When I rewatched season 1-3, I found MANY things I had missed previously. I recommend every Lost fan to do this, as time permits.

Has anyone thought about who Ben's man on the boat might be??? Someone suggested Michael, but I still disagree. We haven't seen Cindy lately...could be her.

#313. Posted by: meg at May 19, 2008 12:18 PM

→ 311. Posted by: undaunted
I sure would have appreciated it if one of those reporters at the press conference had asked the survivors this question: "Did no one on flight 815 question the fact that their flight to LA from Sydney took them NW over the continent of Australia?
- - - -
Agreed - there should have been more investigative questions. It did feel that the interview was more like the writers throwing us die-hard fans a bone, with questions posed on websites over the years... (Hurley still so robust?)... I just wish they asked more... maybe they will have a press conference "flashback" where we get to see all of the questions that were not asked in this episode.

#314. Posted by: DocH at May 19, 2008 1:19 PM

Another weakness in the island-rescue story of the O6: Oceanic/survivors gave the coordinates/map of the previously unchartered island now called Membata.

Now, with the global press frenzy about the O6 tale of survival, would we not expect at least one film crew actually retrace the harrowing adventure back to Membata? And on that island, would there not be clear evidence of a camp that the survivors made for 100 days? And would not the other two survivors buried there? Would not their families want to retrieve their remains? The whole O6 cover story would be put in doubt if a) Membata does not exist or b) someone who goes to the island to confirm the story finds no camp and no graves.

#315. Posted by: welh at May 19, 2008 1:34 PM

Relevant to some of our discussion points, below is an abridged version of an interview with Damon and Carlton from Entertainment Weekly (2/22/08)

******************************************
DAMON AND CARLTON: A SEASON 4 INTERVIEW


DOC JENSEN: Some people are even wondering if the flash-forward stories in each episode are being presented chronologically. For example, did the opening sequence of Sayid's flash-forward — in which he killed the Italian guy on the golf course in the Seychelles — actually occur after his ill-fated Elsa affair?

LINDELOF: There was originally a line in that episode where Sayid said, ''I've just returned from the Seychelles,'' which would have cleared all that up. But we lost it in editing because the scene went on for four minutes. When we're presenting you with a narrative, it's always happening in chronological order.

CUSE: Lost is complex and dense, but we are very conscious of the limits. If we are going to jump time, we're not going to jump narrative order within the time jumps, too.

LINDELOF: We wrote the Sayid episode before the Boston Red Sox won the World Series a second time. So when Jack said to Frank Lapidus, ''Did the Red Sox really win the World Series?'' and Lapidus says, ''Please don't remind me,'' certain subsets of the Lost audience began asking, ''Is it possible Lapidus is actually from 2008?!'' But you have to understand: we are not writing the show for now. We are writing the show so that when you put it in your DVD player 20 years from now, you don't have to understand the nuances of the Red Sox winning the World Series, only they hadn't won it in a long time.

CUSE: But you won't have a DVD player, Damon.

LINDELOF: It'll just be downloaded into your brain.

DOC JENSEN: Another popular theory making the rounds is that we're dealing with alternate realities. For example, there are people who think the flash-forwards are merely possible future scenarios, not written in stone.

CARLTON CUSE: We want people to believe in the stakes of the show. The problem with alternative realities is that you never know when the rug is going to be pulled out from under you. We want the audience to believe that the jeopardy is real. Postulating alternative realities would be an escape valve that would be damaging that as a narrative value.

DAMON LINDELOF: You can get away with it in Heroes, where there is an apocalyptic future you want to avoid. But we're doing the opposite. We want to work toward a future where Jack is absolutely miserable and wants to go back to the Island. Everything we present to the audience has to be factual.

CUSE: We want the audience to believe that is THE future. We don't want people thinking, ''Well, since there are five iterations of this, I'm not going to invest in what's happening to the characters.''

LINDELOF: We're not going to tell you that we're against bending the time/space continuum. We are very for it. Carlton and I are PRO time-space continuum bending! But we're ANTI-paradox. Paradox creates issues. In Heroes, Masi Oka's character travels back from the future to say, ''You must prevent New York from being destroyed.'' But if they prevent New York from being destroyed, Masi Oka can never travel back from the future to warn you, because Future Hiro no longer exists. Right? So when we start having those conversations at Lost, we go, ''This show is already confusing enough as it is.'' To actually have characters traveling through time has to be handled very deftly.

CUSE: For example, the fifth episode of the season [airing next week] deals with time travel and operates in different time periods. It was a tough story to break. But we adhere to our rule: no paradox.

LINDELOF: It's been weird, though. When we got back from the strike, we had to put up a master timeline of the future, from the point where the Oceanic 6 will end up leaving the Island all the way up to where the flash-forwards will end.

CUSE: And the hard thing was charting a timeline when there's a bend in space/time: How do you illustrate that kind of timeline when time isn't entirely linear? That took us an entire morning —

LINDELOF: — just to debate the quantum physics of it all.

CUSE: We needed to bring in a professional illustrator. [They smirk.]

I have a sneaking suspicion you're pulling my leg on some of this stuff.

LINDELOF: Maybe.

CUSE: But we do feel this is a place where we can challenge the audience to create a chronology — where Sayid's story happens in relationship with Jack's story, etc. We'll be adding pieces of that mosaic over the course of these five hours that should hopefully leave you with some fairly clear understanding of what happened between the time the Oceanic 6 were rescued or returned to the real world and Jack and Kate's final scene in the season finale.

DOC JENSEN: How would you describe the general structure of the season?

CARLTON CUSE: This year, it's all about the castaways' relationship to the Freighter folk. Since day one, their goal has been to get off the Island. Now our heroes will find themselves defending the very island they wanted to leave. The future hints at the fact that these folks have a deeper connection to the Island than they themselves realized.

DAMON LINDELOF: The big mystery looming over this season is, how did some people get off the Island and what happened to the people who didn't? That's the mystery that we owe the answer to at the end of the season, in addition to who's in the coffin. We could be winky about the coffin all the way through season 5. But that was one of the first things we talked about when we got back to work on the new episodes: We definitely have to show who was in the coffin. That's the primary super-structure of the season. As a result of that, certain thematic elements — the element of fate or supernatural elements as they relate to the monster and Jacob — are certainly in play but not as interesting to us this season as these questions: Why do some of the characters leave? How do they leave? What are the circumstances under which they leave? Why do some stay? Is it a choice? Is it an accident? Both?

CUSE: There are larger cosmic questions involved in that. Daniel Faraday's rocket experiment in the Sayid episode, which established a time differential on the Island, was a very important scene in that it sets the table for things that come into play in the future of the show. We've learned a lot about our characters' relationship to the Island, but now we're going to learn their relationship to the outside world once they've been on the Island. This is an important new idea to the show.

What's the deal with Jacob's shack? It keeps moving. Then Hurley saw Jack's father rocking in Jacob's chair.

CUSE: You will definitely see more of the cabin and it was very observant that many fans noted the presence of Jack's father inside the cabin. We'll shine a little bit more light on that later this season. This is stuff that is a big part of the show going forward, but in terms of the final five episodes of the season, those are not the kind of questions we'll be answering.

Hurley also saw an eyeball looking back at him. Should we be wondering about the identity of the owner of this eyeball?

LINDELOF: You should be wondering, certainly.

CUSE: One of the definitions of omniscience is to be in more than one place at a time.

LINDELOF: I always thought that word was pronounced omni-science.

CUSE: Well, you've learned something new today.

My annual inquiry: Will we be dealing with the Adam and Eve skeletons this season?

LINDELOF: No. But they will be addressed.

More Dharma Initiative intrigue this season?

LINDELOF: You haven't seen your last station. But the larger mythos, like ''The Purge'' — that's more season 5.

CUSE: We showed the Orchid video orientation film at Comic-Con — that is important for this season.

Someone at my office wants an answer to this question: Wasn't it just a little too convenient for Penny to be calling the Island at the exact same moment Charlie killed the dampening field in the season finale?

LINDELOF: Good question. Here's how we always thought of that: What we always imagined was that Penny has an auto dialer in the bedroom of her house and in various places that is constantly sending some sort of transmission to the coordinates that were revealed at the end of season 2. So when Charlie turned off the dampening field, her auto caller indicated that her call could go through.

Now that they have a satellite phone, why doesn't Desmond just call Penny?

LINDELOF: Lapidus explains the rules of the satellite phone and what calls it can and can't make in episode 5.

The Sayid episode established that Ben's got this list of bad people that need executing. What can you say about these people?

CUSE: We'll know by the end of the season that there will be two alternative explanations for why Oceanic 815 is in the trench at the bottom of the ocean. It will not be clear which story one should believe. [To be clear, Cuse is saying the mystery of Ben's list is linked to this wreckage.]

LINDELOF: Both stories will be presented and both stories will have legitimate facts presented on their behalves.

CUSE: The act of taking a plane, filling it with dead bodies and putting it at the bottom of the ocean connotes a group that is pretty freakin' powerful. You should be worried about the people involved in either scenario capable of doing something like that.

Is one of these groups ''The Maxwell Group,'' a mysterious outfit introduced via the ''Find 815'' alternate reality game?

LINDELOF: We cannot say that any of that stuff in ''Find 815'' is in canon. The Maxwell Group is something that Hoodlum came up with. Last fall, we presented them with the idea that, at the beginning of the second episode, a salvage ship was going to find wreckage of Oceanic 815. From there, they came up with a story — and backstory — that led up to that event. [Some background: prior to the strike, the producers and ABC's marketing team hired a company in Australia called Hoodlum to execute ''Find 815.'']

CUSE: We provided the creative framework but didn't oversee the execution.

LINDELOF: I'll sign off on this idea: the Christiane 1, which in the show was responsible for finding Oceanic 815, was in fact looking for the Black Rock. We established that in the show — but the people who owned the ship may have been up to a little bit more than just looking for the Black Rock.

So what's official and what's not? What's ''canon?''

CUSE: The mobisodes are in canon. The Orchid video is in canon. The videogame is not in canon. It's unfair for the audience to go to ancillary sources in order to really understand the show. Even the things like the mobisodes, which are in canon, aren't essential to your understanding of the show. These things are just added bonuses.

LINDELOF: The only true canon is the show itself.

DOC JENSEN: You've certainly picked some interesting names for your Freighter folk. How should we be interpreting them?

DAMON LINDELOF: With Miles Straum, we just thought it would be cool if his name sounded like ''maelstrom.'' Charlotte Lewis was an obvious reference to C.S. Lewis and an important clue to places we're going at the end of the season.

CARLTON CUSE: And an important clue to Charlotte's own, as-yet-untold important backstory.

LINDELOF: One of our producers, Eddie Kitsis, has been pitching to us ''Frank Lapidus, Helicopter Pilot'' for years. Daniel Faraday is an obvious shout-out to Michael Faraday, scientist and physicist.

CUSE: As is Minkowski, who's on the Freighter. Those names are clues related to the space/time issues that will become more significant downstream.

For the record, is the official lingo here ''the Freighter folk''?

LINDELOF: I like ''Freighter folk'' because you wonder if there's an album cover out there somewhere with all of them, and they have The Mamas and The Papas outfits on.

CUSE: ''Freighter folk'' is more benign. And they're not the only people on that freighter. You're going to meet some other people on the Freighter who have another name, and in contrast to those folks these freighter folk are very...uh, folkish.

How about Matthew Abbaddon?

LINDELOF: ''Abaddon,'' we dug that one out of Wikipedia. When we name people, we often do Web searches on certain verbiage or if we want to pull something out of Greek mythology or Native American mythology, like, ''Who was the god of wheat?''

CUSE: I can't believe you're telling Jeff about the god of wheat now! The entire second half of the fourth season is about the god of wheat!

LINDELOF: Wasn't your nickname at Harvard ''the god of wheat?''

CUSE: No, it was god of rye.

LINDELOF: You see how I get confused.

[Sigh.]

Source: EW.com

#316. Posted by: Clementine at May 19, 2008 1:48 PM

-262 unladenswallow said: I believe now that the sounds heard by the castaways in the middle of the first night was the island being moved.

Wow! I love that idea!

-283 vacc reminded us about Claire's note.

If it was Widmore's pigeon, that would explain it NOT being leaked to the press.

-310 Scooby "wackadoozled" that Lapidus did, in fact, fly OA815. Now THAT really blows my mind.

Not only do WNABB, INABB (I need a bigger brain). Lots of great stuff by eal, berkyo, cecil and the rest. It's gonna be a long wait til 5/29.

#317. Posted by: lovelost at May 19, 2008 1:48 PM

welh,

Somehow I have a feeling that whatever ginormous malevolent corporation/entity has the resources to pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude would have the wherewithal to deposit a few traces/remants of Survivor: Membata, including but not limited to campfires, honey pits, two-hammock huts, coconut husks, Apollo wrappers and empty Ranch dressing bottles, and a Wilson volleyball. Although they probably wouldn't bother re-creating Fort Knox...

#318. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 19, 2008 2:01 PM

→ 316. Posted by: Clementine
Relevant to some of our discussion points, below is an abridged version of an interview with Damon and Carlton from Entertainment Weekly (2/22/08)
- - - -
And two months later they likely recanted much of the timeline related stuff, via podcast, with...

Q: Are we going to ever see any more traditional flashbacks, where the events took place before flight 815 crashed onto the island?

All bets are off. We reserve the right to do flashforwards, flashbacks, flashsideways, and none of the above. I think when you see what we have cooking... you'll be asking what form Season 5 will take.

#319. Posted by: DocH at May 19, 2008 2:31 PM

ransomjackson,

But it gets back to the compressed time line issues. The 815ers are on Day 100-101 on the island. They apparently get to civilization on Day 108-109. In less than a week, the O6 get off the island, get a cover story memorized, while the evil empire finds an unchartered island and creates a three month old camp site?

#320. Posted by: welh at May 19, 2008 2:31 PM

welh,

...and the SS Minnow with a gaping hole in its keel lying in the lagoon...

I see your point about the timeframe.

With the state of journalism today, I hafta believe that somebody would fly to the O6 (aka Gilligan's) Island to do a hum-int story...most likely to debunk any bunk OA is tossing out there.

Someone please double-check my geography, but is it a possible that the supposed uncharted island could have been wiped clean of all traces of people being stranded there for three months by the tsunami?

Which I suppose begs the question...did Widmore cause the tsunami? Admittedly that's one helluva stretch, but hey, why not?

#321. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 19, 2008 2:56 PM

→ 319. Posted by: DocH
"And two months later they likely recanted much of the timeline related stuff, via podcast, with.."

I interpret that as a response to fan questions regarding FBs and FFs in the same episode. I do think the producers will stick to the "no paradox" rule, meaning that the future we see is THE reality, not an alternate reality based on actions taken in the past or present.

They may present points in time out of sequence, but the facts won't change. Just our perspective based on the knowledge we have at the moment.

After this episode and the interesting discussion here regarding the soap-opera quality of the character's future stories, I began to wonder if this wasn't all a Hurley-vision brought on by some bad Santa Rosa jello. But when I read Darlton's discussion on "no paradox" again, I think the future we are seeing is real. We just don't have all the facts or perspective yet.

#322. Posted by: Clementine at May 19, 2008 2:59 PM

Re the issue of why the O6 weren't asked about being found in the Indian Ocean rather than the Pacific:

After thinking about it for a while, it seems to me that Oceanic's officials would have been the logical people to ask about why 815 was found where it was, rather than the people on 815. Generally, a transoceanic flight would be at 30,000 feet (roughly), & if there's any cloud cover, a person on the plane isn't going to see any ground landmarks, only the tops of the clouds. Secondly, w/a large plane like 815, fewer than half of the passengers are going to have a window seat to be looking out to see anything anyway. Finally, although perhaps I'm undercrediting people's sense of geography, I doubt that most people would pay attention to the placement of the sun or even what's visible on the ground (assuming no cloud cover). I think most people assume that the pilot knows what s/he's doing & pay no attention to the apparent direction of the plane. On a long flight like that, there are movies to watch, naps to take, meals to eat, drinks to drink, etc., especially as Oceanic isn't a US carrier (apologies to anyone who works for a US airline).

So although the geography question is a burning one that is begging to be answered (or ought to be, & I'm still waiting for TPTB to address it), the O6 aren't the right batch to ask about it.

#323. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 19, 2008 3:15 PM

I don’t believe we saw Desmond’s “Charlie drowning" visions,

Right Cecil rose. I guess I thought I saw them. We did see the one where Charlie gets an arrow. Maybe that was the only one. And then Someone landing on the island.

#324. Posted by: berkyo at May 19, 2008 3:58 PM

@140 JoePike I too was impressed with Matthew Fox's acting this week. when he found out about Claire being his sister, it really looked like he got punched in the stomache.
@ilovebenlinusxx i agree don't lose faith in the show. I thought this was a great episode. I have tried for the last 3 shows to try & catch Jack's irritating breathing & I don't hear it. I forget to pay attention because I get so wrapped up in the show.
One more thing, the pilot in the beginning with the rabbit's foot - Hurley's key chain, wasn't it a rabbit's foot? Rabbit # 15?

#325. Posted by: xanadude at May 19, 2008 4:00 PM

→ 321. Posted by: ransomjackson
With the state of journalism today, I hafta believe that somebody would fly to the O6 (aka Gilligan's) Island to do a hum-int story...
- - - -
NBC Dateline would cover that story... but then make half of it up as they went along.

#326. Posted by: DocH at May 19, 2008 4:17 PM

DocH,

Is Dan Rather working @ NBC now?

#327. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 19, 2008 4:25 PM

→ 327. Posted by: ransomjackson
Is Dan Rather working @ NBC now?
- - - -
I said - made 'half' of the story up, not, - made it 'all' up. [;^).

Of course Dateline would do the first 5 minutes on the OA6... and the next 55 minutes on how trans-oceanic air travel is the leading cause of global warming, destroying the ozone, and is responsible for millions of deaths in the third world, annually.

#328. Posted by: DocH at May 19, 2008 4:35 PM

Something I still don't understand is how the plane got so far off course. The way I figure it is that the instrument panel died and the pilot just randomly flew around the ocean looking for Figi.

I am right on this? Could the islanders have messed with the mechanics of the plane and 'pulled' the plane to the island?

#329. Posted by: pebspostal at May 19, 2008 5:21 PM

All this talk about the press conference makes me wonder: was it real? are they legitimate reporters? Mac expressed some doubt that Ms Decker was part of a cover-up, but if OA has made all the arrangements, they could also have staged the whole thing with their own people who would ask only certain questions (and Ms Decker might simply be a pawn, unaware of the whole/real picture). And, we still don't know who owns OA, so they could all be Widmore's people. Or...someone else's?

#330. Posted by: lovelost at May 19, 2008 5:27 PM

@DocH/328
"Of course Dateline would do the first 5 minutes on the OA6... and the next 55 minutes on how trans-oceanic air travel is the leading cause of global warming, destroying the ozone, and is responsible for millions of deaths in the third world, annually."

Maybe not millions ... perhaps 324 Thai?

#331. Posted by: ealgumby at May 19, 2008 5:52 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/323
"After thinking about it for a while, it seems to me that Oceanic's officials would have been the logical people to ask about why 815 was found where it was, rather than the people on 815. ...

Finally, although perhaps I'm undercrediting people's sense of geography, I doubt that most people would pay attention to the placement of the sun or even what's visible on the ground (assuming no cloud cover). ...

So although the geography question is a burning one that is begging to be answered (or ought to be, & I'm still waiting for TPTB to address it), the O6 aren't the right batch to ask about it."

Wow ... I don't know why it has taken me SO long to recognize the inherent fallacy of the crash scenario! Upon reading your post though, a couple things occurred to me. First of all, while I agree that "most" people wouldn't "pay attention to the placement of the sun," I find it hard to believe that on a flight with 324 people, NO ONE would! I know that I have personally selected seat placement based upon knowledge of whether I would have the sun glaring through my window or not (I usually like the window seat if I can get it) based upon the flight direction, and have to believe at least ONE passenger on 815 is as anal as I about such things. ;)

The flight from Sydney to LA is just north of NE on a direct great circle path (stretch a string tautly on a globe from Sydney to LA to find the shortest path, that which would be taken by the flight), so those on the left side of the plane would expect the sun in their windows until sunset. Flight 815 left Sydney at 2:15 pm, meaning they'd hit darkness for sure before 8:00 pm local Sydney time if on the correct course, less than six hours into the flight (probably much earlier depending upon their speed). Yet according to pilot Seth Norris' brief dialogue in the first epi: "Six hours in, our radio went out; no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji. By the time we hit turbulence, we were a thousand miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place."

Indeed ... the plane crashed in daylight! Not just daylight, but damned near midday by my estimation. This makes NO sense in terms of the supposed NE course! Given that a transoceanic flight would be cruising above weather as well, there's simply NO way the pilots wouldn't realize their course was wrong ... the sun would be in the wrong side of the cockpit. This doesn't even account for a SINGLE passenger noticing something was awry, either because of sun direction or absence of expected darkness.

Yet the ONLY way they could've crashed in daylight would be if flying westward, instead of east. In that sense, at least, the Fiji/Sumba scenario makes *some* sense. What doesn't make sense is why Capt. Norris would be apparently oblivious to this fact.

Something is very wrong here ...

#332. Posted by: ealgumby at May 19, 2008 7:17 PM

Okay, some dumb questions:

What doe TPTB (The Producers...?) and MIF (Meg is...?) stand for?

#333. Posted by: Brian Douglas at May 19, 2008 7:30 PM

@316 Clementine
Thanks for posting the interview, very interesting. I'm still troubled by D&C saying there won't be any time travel paradox, since in my view the paradox is inherent in time travel. But I did find an interesting way of looking at time travel at the following aptly named site:
http://homepage*mac*com/billtomlinson/newtt*html
(change *s to dots)

It refers to timeline branching, whereby traveling to the past creates a new timeline that essentially replaces the previous one.

#334. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 19, 2008 7:32 PM

Oops ... made a mistaken ref to Fiji near the end of my last post when I meant Bali (where the wreckage was supposedly found) ... should read "Bali/Sumba," not "Fiji/Sumba" ... AACK! Sorry if that made things more confusing than they already are ...

BTW, went back and tried to find dialogue evidence of time-of-day when 815 crashed ... found this from transcripts of "One Of Us" (#316) when Ben sends Goodwin and Ethan off to the crash sites:

"BEN: Juliet. Juliet! I was looking for you this morning. You and I need to talk."

This implies the crash took place some time in the afternoon ... this would be consistent with a flight from Sydney leaving at 2:15 pm and flying toward Bali/Sumba.

Sorry again for any confusion ...

#335. Posted by: ealgumby at May 19, 2008 7:52 PM

@Brian Douglas/333

TPTB = The Powers That Be
MIF = Meg Is First

#336. Posted by: ealgumby at May 19, 2008 7:54 PM

@Scooby-Dude/334
"It refers to timeline branching, whereby traveling to the past creates a new timeline that essentially replaces the previous one."

This similar to the Novikov Principle, except by NP, the two timelines MUST converge back to a "true" worldline at the point in the future where someone traveled back in time ... according to NP, any disturbance to the "new" branch (relative to the original branch) must be "course corrected" by that time, such that they converge seamlessly.

I'm now wondering if THIS is what is going on in the FFs right now ... things "seem" unreal, because the universe is forcing things back to where "they need to be". I reference Desmond's talk with Ms. Hawking, and her premonition about Mr. Red Shoes dying, let alone Desmond's flashes. Also think about Michael not being able to die ...

Things can happen on the "new" branch that might otherwise seem fantastic, in order to "course correct" back to the "true" conjunction of timelines ... the universe has "no choice" but to allow these otherwise unrealistic events to occur, or the timelines will not be able to conjoin at the appropriate time, and reestablish the "course corrected" worldline.

Therefore, the post-O6 events don't have to be "unreal," just unusually convenient, such that the "corrected" timeline is eventually returned to. This is where I'm leaning now anyway ...

#337. Posted by: ealgumby at May 19, 2008 8:09 PM

Brian,

To further explain the anagrams . . . of course “The Powers that be” is fairly
world known and probably no problem . .

However, you’re probably a little confused about why “Meg is First”, aren’t you?

Several seasons ago, when we had a whole lot FEWER bloggers here than we do now, there was this contest to be the “first” blogger on line following Mac’s review.
Meg made it in on several occasions, but many times was beaten by a nose . . . but because Meg is the “joy of all our hearts” it was decided that, regardless of who actually blogged on first . . . Meg would always be the HONORARY FIRST BLOGGER.

At least that’s the story and we’re going to stick to it.

By the way, for this season - because he won last summer’s best quip contest - Red Neck Man was honored with the “He Who is Always Last” award. Which, of course, means that it doesn’t really matter who the last blogger is each week - Red Neck Man is always considered “the end of the line” . . . .

Any of those stories you hear about Meg bitching and moaning and complaining till she got her way are simply fraudulent tales being spread by some jealous loser in Season Two . . . Pay no attention to them.

The “Meg is the Joy of Our Hearts” is the story we’re sticking to.

#338. Posted by: davidrh at May 19, 2008 8:58 PM

I love Meg!

#339. Posted by: davidrh at May 19, 2008 9:00 PM

@@@@@@@@@

Crazy Theory Alert!!!!

Okay, now many of you might know I like to post some extremely obvious facts but make them sound like I am clueless (Michael is really Kevin Johnson, not all of the 815ers died but some actually are living on an island, Kate's baby Aaron isn't really hers, etc etc...) And sure, it is fun because some posters really think I am being serious... but, here is one that could be something to think about...

Wait for it... wait for it...

With the flash forwards we see Baby Aaron at about age 45-50ish... he uses his ability (or the Island's ability) to go back and forth in time - this far in the future, we know that being on the island is actually a good thing and the integrity of the island must be kept intact... blah, blah, blah and so forth...ultimately revealing that he is Jacob. He was a baby on the island and was "saved" after about 100 days, but his abilities and island-birth powers have always remained strong in him...etc.etc....

Ealgumby - help me develop this theory! This one may actually have some threads of possibilty in it...

or maybe it is just the fact that me and Smokey were hanging out a few minutes ago and my mind is a tad hazy right now... (is that the sound of the mystical bong?)

@@@@@@@@

#340. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 19, 2008 9:10 PM

REN: Captain's log. I'm tired. So tired. I can't believe my own partner attacked me. Maybe...if I occupy his MIND with more DUTIES, I can control his...(unearthly voice) ISLAND MADNESS.
[Button room ... the hatch] REN: Now, listen, Cadet. I've got a JOB for you. See this button? (Stimpy reaches for the button) DON'T TOUCH IT! It's the HISTORY ERASER button, you FOOL! You ONLY press it once every 108 minutes, when the alarm sounds ... or EVERYONE DIES!
STIMPY: So what'll happen if I don't?
REN: That's just IT! We don't KNOW! Maayyybeee something bad?...Mayyybeee something good! I guess we'll never know! 'Cause you're going to guard it! You won't TOUCH it, until the alarm goes off, will you?
(Stimpy salutes. Ren leaves.)
REN: Hehhh...hehhhh...hehhhh...hehhhh...
(Stimpy marches back and forth, starting at the button.)
ANNOUNCER: Oh, how long can trusty Locke, I mean Cadet Stimpy hold out? How can he possibly resist the diabolical urge to push the button that could erase his very existence ... or NOT push it? Will his tortured mind give in to its uncontrollable desires?
(Announcer grabs Stimpy, forces him closer to the button.) Can he resist the temptation to push the button that, even now, beckons him even closer? Will he succumb to the maddening urge to eradicate history? At the MERE...PUSH...of a SINGLE...BUTTON! The beeyootiful SHINY button! The jolly CANDY-LIKE button! Will he hold out, folks? CAN he hold out?
STIMPY: YES I CAN!!! I WON'T PUSH IT AT ALL ... EEEEEYAAAHHHH! (alarm goes off, and he fights ... urge ... to ... push button!)
(More alarms go off. Ren, Stimpy, and Announcer stand around computer with button.)
ANNOUNCER: Tune in next week, as...
(Flash, explosion as they all disappear.)

#341. Posted by: ealgumby at May 19, 2008 9:24 PM

I can't help thinking how quickly this season has gone by! I mean I know we have significantly fewer episodes this year, but previous seasons covered a month or more island time, it seems like this season has only taken up a week or so.

@304. Cecil Rose replied:

>@284 FenwayBen mentioned:

>>His [Hurley’s] mom telling him Jesus Christ is not a weapon (no, he's a mule for heroin!),

>That was the Virgin Mary, not JC.

Like she'd leave him out of the family business!

>>What are you doing back here so soon? And an even bigger question, how did Parvati end up with 5 votes?!?

>18 hours? We're too old for a longer celebration.

>I guess with intellects of the caliber of James, Jason, Erik, and Ozzie on the jury, anything can happen.

Ah, I was under the impression it was a weekend getaway. Congrats none the less!

And 3 of the 4 people you mentioned voted AGAINST Parv. Eliza's vote for her is the one that truly baffles me, isn't she supposed to be an educated attorney?

@313 meg said:
>Has anyone thought about who Ben's man on the boat might be??? Someone suggested Michael, but I still disagree. We haven't seen Cindy lately...could be her.

Of course! That entire episode where we saw Michael get hired, and the numerous times we ahve been told by Ben and Michael that Michael is Ben's man on the boat were in the alternate universe, they don't really count! I think it's Cindy's Scarf...

#342. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 19, 2008 10:01 PM

→ 340. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer
You sure got a lot of mileage out of that crazy theory that Aaron isn't Kate's baby. On your Aaron is Jacob theory, not necessarily related but has anyone counted how many toes Aaron has?

→ 337. Posted by: ealgumby
This time travel stuff is way beyond me, but it does seem like the Novikov Principle's argument that timelines must converge back to a "true" timeline in the future is a good possibility. Especially after reading the following from wiki:

A common example of the principle in action is the idea of preventing disasters from happening in the past and the potential paradoxes this may cause (notably the idea that preventing the disaster would remove the motive for the traveler to go back and prevent it and so on). The Novikov self-consistency principle states that a time traveler would not be able to do so. An example is the Titanic sinking; even if there were time travelers on the Titanic, they obviously failed to stop the ship from sinking. The Novikov Principle does not allow a time traveler to change the past in any way, but it does allow them to affect past events in a way that produces no inconsistencies—

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
for example, a time traveler could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses seconds before it occurs.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Providing that the rescuees do not re-emerge until after the time traveler first journeyed into the past, his/her motivation to create the time machine and travel into the past will be preserved. In this example, it must always have been true that the people were rescued by a time traveler and replaced with realistic corpses, there was no "original" history where they were actually killed, since the notion of "changing" the past is ruled out completely by the self-consistency principle.
************
A lot to chew on in the context of Lost....Oceanic wreckage found....Jack's "We have to go back" comment...Michael/Walt being off the island yet not being two of the six...The Oceanic 6's bogus story...Possible time discrepancy re: how many days they were on the island....Lapidus the pilot...

#343. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 19, 2008 10:31 PM

@343
This time travel stuff is way beyond me....

That's me talking, not quoting ealgumby. Sorry for the confusion.

#344. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 19, 2008 10:35 PM

Ohhh Stimson: How did OA815 get so far away from a standard centerline course to LAX? How did no one in Australian ARTCC (air traffic) not notice a trans-pacific flight so far off-course.

Well... maybe the flight flew over the island and got caught in the anomaly that hides the island, hiding the plane and trapping it as well. The island allegedly moves, either quickly or slowly, and drops the plane into the Sunda eventually.

Or the plane dragged the island there. Think of a dog, in a park, on a leash, attached to a folding lawn chair. The owner gets up and WHOOSH, its off to the rodeo, with the dog dragging the chair wildly, usually in a large circular route until it eventually snags on bushes or lodges between trees. The island must have snagged on 'the trench'.

#345. Posted by: DocH at May 19, 2008 11:03 PM

Wait, I'm Lost. Do we believe the crash site in the Sunda Trench is real? I think the plane crashed on the island, maybe got trapped in the anomaly surrounding the island as DocH said, but that doesn't tell us where the island or the actual plane is (or was, before the Swan hatch purple sky, or after the Orchid Island Mover protocol.)

I think the wreckage in the Sunda Trench is fake, and the Membata rescue site is fake. If that's the case, then Alaïs is on the right track. Only Oceanic (and whoever developed the fakery) could speak to why the (fake)plane would be in that location. Cause I don't believe the real plane is or ever was in that location.

I'm still leaning toward a Vile Vortice explanation - plane enters a wormhole and ends up on the island in another dimension. But that's a whole different theory :)

@Scooby/334: The webpage you posted is fascinating.

I was following right along the no paradox/course correction path, but if the NP says that the course will be corrected to equal the status quo of the time-traveler's departure point, what happens in the case of more than one time-traveler?

What if Des is traveling back from 2007, but also from 2004? Could the events in 2004 be part of a course-correction for 2007? Is that why 2007 seems so perfect, and yet not?

@FenwayBen/342: "I think it's Cindy's Scarf..." (Ben's man on the boat)
Have we seen Scarfy on the boat? If Scarfy is TMOTB, could Scarfy also be TPITC? I would be devastated.

#346. Posted by: Clementine at May 19, 2008 11:48 PM

316/Clementine: Thanks for the EW transcript, it was very interesting, even if it does seem to put the final kabosh on the whole "fast forwards are not real" theory.

I would have paid a lot more attention in my college physics class if I had realized I would need to understand the space-time theory of Minkowski and Faraday's principles of magnetism to noodle out what the hell is going on in a tv show 20 years later...

At least the interview does seem to corroborate that they selected Abbadon's name (and its origin as a bringer of destruction) on purpose.

I was going to take my son to see Prince Caspian this weekend anyway, but know that I know that C.S. Lewis holds the key to freighter Charlotte, that's just so much bonus. Wait, the lion's not an allegory for Jesus, it's Jacob/or Ben/or Aaron/or Locke...and the magical wardrobe...why that's the magic box/special submarine/hole in the Tunisian Sahara...

#347. Posted by: Mizzed at May 19, 2008 11:50 PM

===============O

@333 (half a Beast) Brian Douglas asked:

>What does TPTB (The Producers...?) and MIF (Meg is...?) stand for?

The Powers That Be

Meg IS First!
(Not to be confused with another very similar acronym found around the nets)

==============O

@342 FenwayBen retorted:

>>I guess with intellects of the caliber of James, Jason, Erik, and Ozzie on the jury, anything can happen.

>And 3 of the 4 people you mentioned voted AGAINST Parv. Eliza's vote for her is the one that truly baffles me, isn't she supposed to be an educated attorney?

But stupidity is contagious.

Wasn’t Eliza listed as law *student*? Oh, as as if a law degree was any insurance, let me remind you that 95% of all state legislators are lawyers.

==============O

@343 Scooby-Dude Bova’d:

>...for example, a time traveler could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses seconds before it occurs.

Sounds suspiciously like the plot of “Millenium”.

==============O

#348. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 20, 2008 12:34 AM

→ 341. ealgumby: Ren & Stimpy dialogue:

Ren to Stimpy: Don't whiz on the sonic fence!

#349. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 20, 2008 1:19 AM

There's definitely a mystery person in the back of the plane.It could just be another Oceanic rep or Jacob,Ben,Desmond,Sawyer.

#350. Posted by: dreadednatty at May 20, 2008 2:32 AM

@236 undaunted

Had a guest over the weekend, so finding it hard to catch up with all the posts. Have jotted down comments, but I got to post 236 and all this talk about Season 1, Episode 1 has prompted some thoughts. Sorry if someone else has already brought this up. (I hope to catch up by tonight.) Like most of us, I did not know what I was getting into with the first episode of Lost, so didn't think much of it at the time. (Just chocked it up to TV story telling.) Does anyone think it strange that Jack was "thrown" from the plane...laying in the jungle while the wreakage, bodies and survivors were all on the beach? I can't recall, but were there any others thrown in different places in the jungle and not on the beach? Wonder if there is some correlation...? Okay...back to reading the posts...

#351. Posted by: boodle at May 20, 2008 6:08 AM

I still think the wreckage is faked. The question is who would benefit the most from the search for said wreckage being called off? And who would be willing to go to such lengths (morally and financially) to do it? I can't wait to hear the "alternate" theory to the claim Widmore is responsible!

#352. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 20, 2008 7:30 AM

I think it's weird that when she tells Jack about Claire, and he reacts with obvious recognition to the name, Claire's mother doesn't ask him if he has met her on the plane. Just wanted to tell him (and unintentionally mess up his post-Island fairytale), not caring if he might have actually seen her? No picture to show him? + the whole 'I was in a coma' thing. Definitely feels to me like this meeting was intentionally planned by JIBAWAPO (Jacob/Island/Ben/Alpert/Widmore/Abbadon/Paik/Others) to mess with Jack.

Btw, when moving the letters around, JIBAWAPO also stands for:

Jin Always Protects Wife. Back Away, Obnoxious Island.

Ben Wants Juliet In A Perverted Alien Outfit.

Jack Is Always Annoying Others, Bernard Whimpers Pitifully.

Allright, that's enough. I'm glad that after this season, I'm forced to take a long vacation from the show. I've been wasting way too much time on this thing. It's become an excuse to not go out there and do more real stuff.

In the future, if any of you spot me at some lame Lost-Con, wearing a Hurley wig and calling every chick dude, please kill me on the spot :)

#353. Posted by: Robislost at May 20, 2008 8:31 AM

@DocH - Luv ya too!!! :)
Actually, I was first once - and boy did I get reemed for it. Someone actually said "it's bloggers like meg who ruin sites like this!" or something to that effect.

@FenwayBen #342 See, I told ya'. It's bloggers like me who catch the minute details that make/break the show.

@Cecil Rose #348
Meg IS First!
(Not to be confused with another very similar acronym found around the nets)

Nets? LOL, I had almost forgotten that one...

@everyone - the time travel/island moving/ location of the plane, wreckage, etc. is ALL beyond me. Yet, I still manage to enjoy the show at face value! And, I look toward this community to analyze it all for me. Thanks!!


#354. Posted by: meg at May 20, 2008 9:39 AM

The problem with the island/crash site being truly in Bali is that the freighter left Fiji, traveled a few days, to the island; Michael stated he left the island by boat and wound up in Fiji then to NY.

#355. Posted by: welh at May 20, 2008 10:24 AM

316- "It's unfair for the audience to go to ancillary sources in order to really understand the show."
Thanks Clementine for this interview. I learned a lot - but isn't it an ancillary source?

262 unladenswallow said: I believe now that the sounds heard by the castaways in the middle of the first night was the island being moved.
I like this idea too and just re watched pilot 1 to look for the stick. The noise that they hear sounds very much like the noise they hear in the plane when it starts to break up, and when the pilot is eaten and before they go to look for the pilot. i don't think it is.

In ref to branching time lines and getting back to the world line - I read the Foundation series a Looooong time ago. Wasn't that what they were doing using Human masspsychosomething? Instead of going through long wars and famine, science had figured out mathematically how to shorten these times of trial and tribulation and get back to progress as usual? (Didn't they have the founder of the science in a "box" so that they could talk to him when they needed direction???? very strange)
Maybe the Dharnma, working with the numbers did find a way to change the future,(their own mass psychology and Jacob in the cabin)) and the flash forwards we see are branches in time that will bring them back to the island to fix whatever it was that went wrong in time. I figure it must have to do with Desmond as he was there first. He should not have crashed the plane. Bad Desmond.

#356. Posted by: berkyo at May 20, 2008 10:24 AM

Also there is a logical problem with the course correction theory. In the example, you go back in time and switch out people who would be killed in a fire with corpses. By doing that, you actually change the future because those just people rescued had no future history in the predetermined time line. Since the saved persons now interact with people they would never have (since they would have died in the fire), that would create hundreds to thousands of daily changes in the courses of many other people's lives leading to a cascade of new time line tangents that would never correct back to the original time line.

#357. Posted by: welh at May 20, 2008 10:29 AM

Okay...just finished all the posts. Whew...will teach me for next season...can't let it go!!

@350 dreadednatty

Yes, there is someone there in the back/front of the cargo plane. I thought they showed the "legs" of the person after the OA rep smiled and nodded in that direction on her way back in the plane, but it was shortly after she started the post landing itinerary, there was a broad shot of her with all of that front area in the background. There is where you see the legs of maybe a man and I think I made out an outline/shadow of his(?) head. If this was a member of the crew, why show him at all...? I think we are pretty sure that it means something. Could be Michael...not really certain who else it would be. If it were Michael, would explain why he isn't sitting with the rest of them...they certainly don't consider him to be a "friend". But if it is Michael, then why not have him be one of the survivors...? He may not be popular with the rest of the gang, but he was also on OA 815...hmmm...

@260 Mizzed "Mirror image"

This post struck something in me. Since I had not been here with this fantastic Lost blog from the beginning, this may have already been discussed. Sorry, if it had, but post #260 made me think about this again. When the Lost logo comes on the screen...I think it is at the end of the episode...the one with "Lost" title kind of intertwined in the shot of an island. There is a mirror reflection below the island landscape that looks like a city of sorts. I thought that this may have some important play into what Lost is all about. Please let me know if this has been discussed and I will look at past reviews/posts. Thanks!

#358. Posted by: boodle at May 20, 2008 10:34 AM

Regarding the noises and the possible tie to the island moving. The smoke monster makes a clanging sound - like chains moving. Could that be the "moving" of the island?

#359. Posted by: meg at May 20, 2008 10:35 AM

Im gonna go out on a limb here and propose perhaps the Island is a very large UFO that crash landed millions of years ago. That would explain the four toed statue. Perhaps the smoke monster's original purpose was to protect the four toed people and after they died off its not sure what to do.
And maybe thats how they will move the island/UFO by locke finding the control center under the newest hatch.

#360. Posted by: perhaps at May 20, 2008 11:57 AM

This has nothing to do with this episode but I'm hoping that someone can clear this up for me. In 'The Constant' the last time Desmond travels back in time is to 2004 where he meets Penny? Stupid observation but isn't Desmond on the island at that time? And if hes not then does that mean he gets off the island?

:O

#361. Posted by: AC at May 20, 2008 12:08 PM

@berkyo/356: "Thanks Clementine for this interview. I learned a lot - but isn't it an ancillary source?"

Ha! Very true. Somewhere, someone should be conducting an experiment with Lost viewers who are able to watch the episode each week and never search for more information. Do those people exist? Are they also fans of "According to Jim"?

@boodle/358
Looks like the man on the plane is just a crewman. How disappointing :)

Courtesy of DarkUFO:
http://tinyurl*com/67xdjb

@AC/362: Desmond's consciousness only time-traveled from 1996 to 2004. His body remained as it was in both timeframes, and did not travel. (Ah, Desmond's body - sorry, snap out of it, Clem!) Anyway, I'm sure you could find a better explanation in mac's review of "The Constant."

#362. Posted by: Clementine at May 20, 2008 12:26 PM

O===============

@345 DocH inquired:

>Ohhh Stimson: How did OA815 get so far away from a standard centerline course to LAX? How did no one in Australian ARTCC (air traffic) not notice a trans-pacific flight so far off-course.

Air Traffic Control Radars don’t follow very far on international flights. Over the vast Pacific, planes are pretty much on their own, navigationally. All the flight centers can do is take position reports from the aircraft. Of course today, with satellite navigation and inertial backup, finding one's position is not nearly the task it used to be.

O===============

@362 AC questioned:

>...In 'The Constant' the last time Desmond travels back in time is to 2004 where he meets Penny? Stupid observation but isn't Desmond on the island at that time? And if he’s not then does that mean he gets off the island?

If I recall correctly, Desmond traveled (in his mind) back to 1996, at which time he was in training with the British Army. At that time he tells Penny he needs to know the phone number she’ll be at 8 years in the future, on Christmas eve, 2004. His 1996 consciousness jumped to his 2004 self at the same time, on the boat, which is why he didn’t recognize Sayid.

O===============

#363. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 20, 2008 12:38 PM

Robislost/353: "Ben Wants Juliet In A Perverted Alien Outfit"
Nomination for Lost Lines contest - wacky acronym category!

BTW, just recently watched the remake of "3:10 to Yuma," and who did I spy with my little eye? KEAMY! And Wash from Firefly :)

#364. Posted by: Clementine at May 20, 2008 12:40 PM

→ 362. Posted by: AC at May 20, 2008 12:08 PM

"This has nothing to do with this episode but I'm hoping that someone can clear this up for me. In 'The Constant' the last time Desmond travels back in time is to 2004 where he meets Penny? Stupid observation but isn't Desmond on the island at that time? And if hes not then does that mean he gets off the island?"


I understand what you are saying. He was "there" in that time already, I mean, his body was already there (don't woryy Clementine, you can have that one ALL to yourself!). So, what wasn't Pen, or father, or anyone surprised to see him? How could he be in the army, AND in the hatch pushing the button...???? Which, is what he should be doing during that time.


:O

#365. Posted by: meg at May 20, 2008 12:42 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, Cecil. I guess you posted right about the same time I did. I didn't realize it was 1996.

#366. Posted by: meg at May 20, 2008 12:45 PM

Re where the heck did Flight 815 really crash, where is the island, etc.?

It appears that we've got two theories at the moment:

1) Flight 815 left Sydney for LA on a normal flight path (slightly north of NE, as ealgumby said). Six hours into the flight, the radio went out & the flight turned back to head for Fiji. At some point after that (I don't recall if anyone said how long), 815 crashed, 1,000 miles off course. This information primarily comes from the pilot (in both senses; the human one & the Pilot Pt. 2 episode), when Jack, Kate, & Charlie found the injured pilot in the cockpit before he became island food.

This would indicate that the crash & therefore the island are somewhere in the South Pacific. Possible supporting evidence for this would be the Numbers, as when translated into GPS coordinates (if I'm remembering correctly, but I also think it works w/latitude & longitude) place the island in the South Pacific. Placement of the island in the South Pacific is also logical according to the expected flight path Sydney-LA. Finally, the pilot has no apparent reason to lie to Jack et al. about what happened to Flight 815.

2) Flight 815 left Sydney for LA, but for an unknown reason flew northwest across Australia & crashed south of Indonesia (on the conveniently uninhabited island of Membata?—which, according to Webster's online dictionary, means "ambivalent" in Indonesian). Supporting evidence for this is that the flight crashed during the day, not in the evening as would have been the case if Flight 815 flew east after departing in mid-afternoon from Sydney. (There's a screen capture in Lostpedia's "Pilot Pt. 1 & 2" episode description or transcript of Jack looking out the window of the plane. It's bright daylight & the plane is above a solid bank of clouds.)

I have a very hard time believing in Theory 2. First of all, it flies in the face of geography (a Sydney-LA flight wouldn't go northwest from Sydney, unless one was really taking the scenic route). Second, for Theory 2 to be true, the pilot(s) & crew would all have to been part of a conspiracy, or one of them would have noticed that the sun was in the wrong place/the plane was flying over land (assuming a break in the clouds), even if no passengers did. This conspiracy would then extend to the pilot's lying to Jack et al.

On the basis of the above evidence, I agree w/Clementine (#346) that the Membata site is faked & that Flight 815 was never near Indonesia. The weight of logical evidence supports Theory 1. The one logical sticking point in favor of Theory 2, though, is that the crash took place in daylight hours.

However, this still begs the question that undaunted & others have raised: surely someone would have asked why a Sydney-LA flight crashed off of Indonesia. We know there's a massive cover-up going on (although I don't think at this point we know definitely who's behind it, Ben or Charles, or to what extent Oceanic is involved in the cover-up). But why, if someone's trying to cover up what really happened to Flight 815 & the existence of the island, would the cover-up story be so flimsy? Wouldn't the cover-up wreckage & story be placed in the South Pacific where the flight should have been? The South Pacific's big enough that Faux 815 could have been placed somewhere near enough the correct flight path to not arouse suspicion but far enough away from the island to conceal its existence. The cover-up story is as poorly constructed, logically speaking, as the contention that Kate was six months' pregnant on the flight & that Aaron is only five weeks old at the time of rescue.

Random thought: There's been plenty of discussion over what "moving the island" means & it seems that the consensus is that the island moves in time rather than place. (The idea of the island moving in place, rather like Whack-a-Mole, is pretty hard to take.) But if the island can move in place, then was it in the South Pacific when the flight crashed, but moved to the Indian Ocean during one of the "purple sky" events?

I'm sure there's evidence/supposition that I've forgotten to include in this post, so please add on!

#367. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 20, 2008 1:18 PM

→ 364. Posted by: Cecil Rose
Air Traffic Control Radars don’t follow very far on international flights. Over the vast Pacific, planes are pretty much on their own, navigationally. All the flight centers can do is take position reports from the aircraft. Of course today, with satellite navigation and inertial backup, finding one's position is not nearly the task it used to be.
- - - -
Roger that! Been there, done it - single seat fighter without GPS or LORAN. It is just that they were about 6 hours in when they went astray and then a thousand miles off-course. Fiji ATC would have had radar and voice contact at around 3-4 hours. That still puts them 5 hours away from the Sunda Trench - cruising at about 0.75 mach.

What really ticks me off is that the plane we see in the first few episodes doesn't have the range for a Sydney-to-LAX flight - not even the extended range version of the plane. They would have required a refuel stop in Honolulu or Hilo.

(I have this all mapped out on Google Earth & Falcon View, just nowhere to post/publish.)

#368. Posted by: DocH at May 20, 2008 1:21 PM

@ 332/ ealgumby

I went back to lostpedia's episode guide, and in the pilot pages there is a screen cap of Jack, who was seated on the left side of the plane, looking out the window. There is a reflection off the wing which appears that the sun is on the left side of plane.

So there is direct evidence that at least Jack was aware of the plane's relative direction.

#369. Posted by: welh at May 20, 2008 1:33 PM

@DocH/368: "I have this all mapped out on Google Earth & Falcon View, just nowhere to post/publish"

I made a few maps on Google before that I shared by giving people the URL. Do you think that would work with your map? I watched this tutorial again, and at the end it says you can view your map in Google Earth.

http://maps*google*com/help/maps/mymaps/create*html

Not sure if that would work, but it would be cool if you could share it!

#370. Posted by: Clementine at May 20, 2008 1:46 PM

@230. Posted by: Clementine

Nice potential death stick observation.
Man - this show makes my head hurt like I've just been pummeled by a death stick!

Jedi Mind Tricks - I do not want to sell death sticks - I want to go home and re-evaluate my life!


@333. Posted by: Brian Douglas

re: What does MIF stand for?

LoL - Never thought about it til now, but it could easily be mixed up with another similar acronym that contains an "L", and has a much more provocative meaning.

Double LoL - I see Cecil picked up on the same tangent!

#371. Posted by: shikotee at May 20, 2008 1:59 PM

→ 370. Posted by: Clementine
http://maps*google*com/help/maps/mymaps/create*html
- - - -
Thanks I'll check it out.

And when I said 5 hours to the Sunda Trench earlier. I really meant 5 hours, IF they flew there direct from Sydney.

#372. Posted by: DocH at May 20, 2008 2:10 PM

Final Podcast for Season 4
with Damon and Carlton

A few highlights are below. I won't even put spoiler tags on it, because really no new information. The entire audio podcast can be found here:

http://tinyurl*com/2469cq

Why did Jack and the rest of the Oceanic 6 decide to lie? That’s the big question going into the Finale.

Before Finale, the last episode “There’s No Place Like Home, Part 1” will re-air with an extended press conference scene with new questions.

In the Finale:
-Who put the bomb on the freighter and what its purpose is
-See what the Orchid looks like and more of the orientation film
-Probably more FFs

Q - Do bad guys on Lost know they are bad guys?
A - Keamy’s bad, but doing his job

Antipodes – regions that lie at opposite sides of the globe
Q - Does Lost involve travel through antipodal wormholes?
A - Very intriguing and good question, but conclusions derived may not be exactly correct

Yes, we’ll be seeing Walt again soon, and he’s special

Q - Is Abaddon working for Dharma? Widmore?
A - Can’t say who Abaddon works for yet, but he’s not at the top of the food chain

Carlton’s favorite character – Sawyer
Damon’s favorite character – Jack (but he misses the chest hair)

Q - Is the island not letting Jack die in the future (jump off the bridge), and not allowing Ben and Widmore to kill each other?
A - Yes, exactly right.

Radio silence until Comicon in July

#373. Posted by: Clementine at May 20, 2008 2:46 PM

&63 / Welh

If Ben wouldn't give himself up to save Alex, why now?

That bothered me very much. I guess Ben would allow Alex to die.

But would let himself be captured to save the island.


When Kreamy put the gun to Ben's head did you see him cross his buggy eyes ! I'd like a screen cap of that one !

I just got a feeling that Locke will be the bad guy and Ben will be the good guy at the end if for no other reason ILOVEBENXX will somehow "make it so".

#374. Posted by: SamFin at May 20, 2008 3:03 PM

In all the discussion re: the location of the island, the flight path, the rescue location, and the movement of the island, I think we're still caught too much thinking of the island in a conventional way, i.e. in a permanent, defined location at a specific, defined time.

There have been strong hints both in the series itself and in TPTB interviews that the island is a real place, but that the key to understanding and identifying its location involves the concept of spacetime- the physics concept of time as a 4th dimension that has developed out of Einstein's Theory of Relativity. The island's magnetic forces are so powerful they can literally bend light, and therefore time- and our perception of where and when the island is at any specific location or time.

I would embarrass myself by intelligently trying to explain a concept I barely grasp myself, but apparently the movement of the island through time (and therefore, through space) is theoretically possible, as explained in an article in the current Popular Mechanics:

"Michio Kaku, author of Physics of the Impossible, told us he thinks that Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse are using the island’s unique properties­—namely its electromagnet and the Casimir Effect hinted at in the Orchid Station orientation video—to open a transversible wormhole to different points in time and space. (Über-baddie Keamy seemed to verify that when he pulled the Orchid-Station-emblazed “secondary protocol” from the ship’s safe. He said the document would tell him “where Linus is going. If Linus knows we’re going to torch the island, there’s only one place he could go.”)"

"The Casimir Effect and transversible wormholes are real, cutting-edge science, Kaku says. “The Casimir Effect has to do with the energy of the vacuum,” he says. “It’s negative energy that has bizarre properties.” Black holes, he says, could open up a portal to another universe, but it would be a one-way trip because they’re unstable and can’t stay open on their own. Casimir energy could, in theory, keep the gateway from closing and create a transversible wormhole. According to Kaku, if an energy source like Lost’s big electromagnet were present, a black hole could open up and the island’s Casimir Effect could keep it open, creating a portal."

"We’ve already seen some time and space jumping on the show­. First, Ben’s arrival in the Tunisian desert in Dr. Halliwax’s Orchid Station parka hinted at the island’s ability to shuttle people around to different locations. And just as strange, it seems that the time difference between the freighter and the island is changing: In the previous episode, it was nighttime when Faraday used the sat-phone-turned-telegraph to ask what happened to the doctor, but it was daylight when the freighter folk received the message; Keamy didn’t slit his throat until later."

"While the wormhole theory might seem more likely given what we know about the Orchid Station, the amount of energy needed to move an island through a wormhole, Kaku says, is immense—you’d need the positive energy of a star and negative energy with a mass the size of Jupiter just to create a wormhole big enough for a person—and you’d need very advanced technology millions of years beyond our own to do it. “In principal, they are within the laws of physics,” Kaku says, “but it would be very advanced laws of physics, and it’s something we can’t exploit at the present time.” Plus, there could be consequences. “If you’re not careful, you could swallow up the earth in the process.”

#375. Posted by: Mizzed at May 20, 2008 3:43 PM

@348 Cecil Rose
Sounds suspiciously like the plot of "Millennium."

Indeed. In fact the movie is referenced on the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle wiki page.

#376. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 20, 2008 3:49 PM

re: the location of the island and moving it

If the assumption is that the island is a physical presence on earth, the idea of moving it through a worm hole to another dimension in space creates the problem that the O6 are supposed to be at a Hawaiian press conference in a few days.

If the moving of the island is to move it in time, then the island remains in its physical place. If all the people on the island move to the new time coordinates, that does not diffuse the Keamy invasion. If time teleportation affects everyone on the island, then going backward in time would only delay the Keamy invasion.

All of the clues so far point infer that the island is real, in the South Pacific, a few days freighter ride from Fiji. It is accessible by boat, helicopter and submarine. Those traveling to/from the island use a bearing for navigation to/from its fixed location.

#377. Posted by: welh at May 20, 2008 4:42 PM

→ 375. Posted by: Mizzed

Wow! Michio Kaku - my alltime personal favorite Theoretical Physicist. Now HE's hot!! And a LOST fan. (sigh)

Thanks, Mizzed, for posting this one.

#378. Posted by: lovelost at May 20, 2008 4:42 PM

Another random thought: One of the books that Sawyer has read during the course of the show is A Wrinkle in Time. If you haven't read the book recently (Miss Longthought & I just read it for a book club), the "wrinkle in time" is called a tesseract & is explained by stretching a piece of material flat between two hands, then bringing the hands together w/the material then hanging in a loop below. This illustrates the possibility of traveling great distances very quickly, although the "how" of traveling in a tesseract (or "tessering") is left unexplained. I looked up "tesseract" in Wikipedia; those here w/an understanding of higher physics/math would need to turn the information into terms that (at least this layperson) could understand, but I did find an interesting factoid—that the description of a tesseract in A Wrinkle in Time more closely resembles a wormhole.

#379. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 20, 2008 6:08 PM

@ SamFin - 374
"I just got a feeling that Locke will be the bad guy and Ben will be the good guy at the end if for no other reason ILOVEBENXX will somehow "make it so"."

... Precicely!

----------------------------------------

I remember the first time I posted on this blog... It was scary. Everyone hated me.

Not as much as they hate boozy though.

I'm pretty sure it was because of my name, and because at the time, Ben was "meg's".

Now Keamey is megs... and Ben is mine =]

Or Beamey? Something like that.

Regardless, HALF of Ben is mine... the better half of course.

#380. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 20, 2008 6:27 PM

Regardless, HALF of Ben is mine... the better half of course.
→ 380. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx


For God's Sake, Folks! DON'T ANYBODY ASK HER!!!!!

#381. Posted by: davidrh at May 20, 2008 6:37 PM

→ 381. Posted by: davidrh
For God's Sake, Folks!
DON'T ANYBODY ASK HER!!!!!
==============
Interrogative? plz.

Would that be the ever widening, musk ox shaped backside?... or the forward-oreinted bug-shaped eye-side?

{i still expect him to flick-out a 14 inch tongue and lick those eyes}

#382. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 20, 2008 7:14 PM

@Mizzed/375

I've been trying to explain this concept for quite a while, but have focused on the practical aspect of "using" it ... space-time traversal is achieved by means of being rapdily accelerated (by essentially "falling" toward a rotating black hole) at an exact direction relative to the black hole. A rotating black hole will "drag" the fabric of spacetime around it, such that accelerations against the grain of the warped space, so to speak, can result in travel off the nominal "worldline" (meaning displacement in space, time, or both). Anyway, the "course" toward the black hole is the key to one's destination on the other side of the journey.

It is also crucial that the black hole (or I might add, theoretical very-advanced technological equivalant ... wiki "Tipler Cylinder" for an example of a theoretical "frame-dragging" machine) be rotating, to induce two effects: (1) the frame dragging, and (2) inner event horizons and outer Cauchy horizon (nothing gets out of the event horizon, but the spacetime-travel "course" will pass bewteen the two. The importance of the Casimir effect is to stabilize the otherwise inherently unstable Cauchy horizon.

It's also interesting to note that the collapse of a Casimir effect field has been known to produce sonoluminesence ... an eerie bright blue-to-violet glow. I would suggest that when the hatch button was not pressed, the Casimir effect field collapsed, releasing massive sonoluminesence (i.e., the purple sky), and destabilizing the Cauchy horizon, producing unpredictable effects (beginning with the implosion of the hatch). The failsafe key re-established the Casimir effect field, stabilizing the "wormhole" to/from the island.

@Alaïs_Longthought/379
"the description of a tesseract in A Wrinkle in Time more closely resembles a wormhole. "

Related to the previous comment ... First of all, I don't like the use of "wormhole" in regard to black-hole-induced spacetime-travel as described above ... it is more properly referred to as frame dragging effects. However, the word "wormhole" has caught on in popular parlance, and probably makes more sense to the average reader. In fact, a theoretical wormhole is another animal.

Rather than achieving spacetime offset via accelerated travel through warped space, a wormhole literally goes from point A in space to point B in space without ever "being" in between. Extra-dimensional geometry is suggested as a means to achieve this (most famuously in "Flatland" by Edwin Abbott, written in 1884, positing a 2-D world where the denizens are amazed by the ability of a 3-D person from our world to magically move from place to place in their world without ever "being" in between [as in poking his finger "into" 2-D Flatland, then picking it "up," a concept they cannot grasp, and then poking it back into Flatland elsewhere]. The 3-D protagonist, frustrated by the Flatlanders' inability to perceive the third dimension, plucks one of them "up" out of Flatland, and returns him to explain the concept ... this poor sap is rapidly deemed insane and locked up [hmmm ... Hurley?]. "A Wrinkle in Time" is the updated variation of "Flatland," invoking the 4-D concept of spacetime to likewise travel from point to point in 3-D "space" without ever having been in between. Strictly speaking, a tesseract is the 4-D geometrical equivalent of a cube. Travel from point to point in 3-D space can be achieved by following a 4-D axis in a tesseract). A better example of the wormhole concept is presented by the Möbius strip, a geometrical form sometimes suggested as a model of the continuous universe. If two opposite surfaces of the strip are brought "close together," than the "distance" between two very distant points in the universe could theoretically be very close from the perspective of a further dimensional view ... a wormhole is the theoretical construct to "connect" these disparate points with very little "actual travel." This is analogous to the example presented in "A Wrinkle In Time" with the hanging strip of material.

How's this for oddly coincidental ... check out an example wiki provides for a Möbius strip ... believe it or not, a SCARF!:

tinyurl.com/3f64tv

Anyway, the circumstantial evidence presented in Lost points to frame-dragging effects (either from a black hole, or advanced technology equivalent of a Tipler cylinder), rather than a "true" wormhole, IMO.

Not that that means anything.

#383. Posted by: ealgumby at May 20, 2008 7:15 PM

@ MorBid0 - 382
"Would that be the ever widening, musk ox shaped backside?... or the forward-oreinted bug-shaped eye-side?"

To answer your question: the left side of course!!! =]

#384. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 20, 2008 8:46 PM

@379 Alaïs_Longthought revealed:

>Another random thought: One of the books that Sawyer has read during the course of the show is A Wrinkle in Time. If you haven't read the book recently (Miss Longthought & I just read it for a book club)...

It seems to be very popular in the Wake County library system. All versions (regular print, large print, cassette, and CD) have waiting lists for it.

Which ep was this in? I try to keep up with "Lost" referenced literary works, but must have missed this one somehow.

(See recent review in Random Topics of "The Invention of Morel", and upcoming ones of "VALIS" and "Survivors of the Chancellor".)

#385. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 20, 2008 9:00 PM

I had to read "A Wrinkle in Time" in 6th grade... and "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in 5th.

... I'm not sure that was relevant, but I felt like sharing =D (Evil smiley)

#386. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 20, 2008 9:20 PM

Has everyone seen this but me? It seems that the 3rd season is also available in "Blue Ray"- not sure what that is, it wasn't what I watched the 3rd season in. Anyhow, they have an expanded "access Granted" section of the bonus CD. I did not see this. It has the writer's giving definite answers to some questions. Sorry if you guys already know about it.

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Access_Granted#The_Island

#387. Posted by: berkyo at May 20, 2008 9:37 PM

@387 berkyo asked:

>Has everyone seen this but me? It seems that the 3rd season is also available in "Blue Ray"- not sure what that is, it wasn't what I watched the 3rd season in.

Blue ray is the comnpeting version of High Definition DVD technology that just won the fight to become the next-generation DVD format. It uses a blue (ultraviolet) laser to encode, which operates at higher frequencies (shorter wavelengths) than the vanquished competitor HD-DVD. The shorter wavelength means it can encode in smaller spaces, thus get more information (film time, extras) on the same size DVD.

#388. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 20, 2008 9:46 PM

This wormhole/blackhole stuff is so far over my head that I'm just going to tag along and see where it takes us. But, has anyone factored in that true North is not North on this island. Remember Locke's compass?

#389. Posted by: pebspostal at May 20, 2008 10:37 PM

→ 383. ealgumby: Possible physics of LOST:

Thanks for the info...I went over to Wikipedia & read the entries on Cauchy horizons, tesseracts (again), Casimir effects, etc. I definitely wasn't cut out to be a theoretical physicist/mathematician (or are we in the quantum field here? or are they the same?), but it does make more sense now (I think).

Let me see if I have this at least somewhat right: travel to & from the island is by way of a rotating black hole, approached on a heading that has changed in recent days from 325 to 305, possibly due to the most recent collapse of the Casimir effect & the destabilization of the Cauchy horizon, which was caused by Locke's manipulation of the situation in the Swan hatch to prevent the button from being pushed. Desmond's failsafe key has restored the Casimir effect & thus stabilized the Cauchy horizon, at least temporarily, although this may be changing based on Danny's reactions to his various experiments & the apparent time shifts between the freighter & the island. Wow, I feel like I'm writing the final answer in a final exam & am wondering if I'm going to pass! ; )

Do I want to know what a theoretical wormhole is?

Something that's probably not related, but I'll toss it out there just for fun: tesseracts are 4D, as is Minkowski space. And a rotating tessaract has a good bit of resemblance to a bunch of six-degree-freedom-of-motion systems stuck together.

→ 385. Cecil Rose: A Wrinkle in Time:

According to Lostpedia, Sawyer was reading A Wrinkle in Time in Deus Ex Machina (S1E19). This is when it was discovered that he's far-sighted & needs glasses. I read the transcript for that episode & there's no mention of any of the books that appear in it, though, so if the information is correct it must be that the book appears as a visual but isn't verbally referenced.

→ 386. ilovebenjaminlinusxx: The Lion, the Witch, & the Wardrobe:

Hey, we've had polar bears, why not toss a lion in there too? ; )

#390. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 20, 2008 10:53 PM

ALERT ALERT ALERT

The ABC website shays they're reshowing two episodes tomorrow (Wednesday). Presumably the "enhanced" versions.

FRom the site:
""Something Nice Back Home" / "Cabin Fever"
Wed May 21 8/7c
When Jack's health is seriously compromised, Kate and Juliet must learn to work together in order to save him; Locke is enlightened as to the whereabouts of Jacob's cabin."

#391. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 20, 2008 11:16 PM

@ Let me see if I have this at least somewhat right: travel to & from the island is by way of a rotating black hole, approached on a heading that has changed in recent days from 325 to 305, possibly due to the most recent collapse of the Casimir effect & the destabilization of the Cauchy horizon.
_______
Someone mentioned a few months ago that 325 may be from the South end of the island and 305 may be from farther North on the island.
-T2

#392. Posted by: TanziTwo at May 20, 2008 11:27 PM

So....

Just re-watched the episode and thought I'd chime in a little.

re: The fate of Jin

Previously, I was willing to bet the farm that Jin was still alive, based on the ambiguous words of Sun when she was visiting his grave with Hurley.

This episode really tries to leave the impression that Jin is dead, at least from Sun's perspective. However - it is difficult to process the truth, as we are well aware that Sun is a skilled liar. Even as a child, she could stare down her father, lie to him (ie who broke the glass ballerina), and not even flinch in the slightest!

So - Does Sun really blame her father for Jin's death for the reasons stated, or is there more to this than meets the eye?

If the Paik/Widmore speculated connection pans out, perhaps Widmore will turn out to be #2 person that Sun blames for Jin's death?

Perhaps this better explains why she went took over her fathers company?

Many of us have been bothered by the fiscal realities involved in obtaining controlling interest, and highly doubt that any settlement would be high enough to make such a move.

Perhaps Paik and Widmore are connected, but not on the same side. Widmore has deep pockets - maybe he helped Sun with $$, or better yet - maybe Penny?

In any case - still clinging to Jin being alive, though no longer certain if Sun is actually aware of this.

Time will tell....

#393. Posted by: shikotee at May 21, 2008 1:22 AM

I'm not sure if someone has already raised this question... and also not sure if the answer it blatantly obvious - Lost is hard to keep up with!
But was the funeral for Christian Shepard actually a memorial? Considering his body was being flown back from Australia and must have 'gone down' with the plane? And why have the memorial only now? Surely if Jack was thought dead they would have held a memorial for him and his father?

Great review again!

#394. Posted by: britishbex at May 21, 2008 7:42 AM

So sorry about the multiple posts!! My computer decided to freeze and I didn't think my intial attempt had worked... apologies!

#395. Posted by: britishbex at May 21, 2008 7:45 AM

Regarding the division of Ben between ilovebenlinusxx:

If you gauge out Ben's eyes, and rip out his brain - then place that brain in Keamy...that'd do it. iheartben can have the rest.

Wow! I can get so sick sometimes...

#396. Posted by: meg at May 21, 2008 8:13 AM

@394. Posted by: britishbex

Yikes - felt like you were stuttering!

It was memorial for Christian (no body), and you are right - it really makes no sense whatsoever that it was held upon Jack's return, other than to serve as a means for Jack to meet Claire's mom.

#397. Posted by: shikotee at May 21, 2008 10:02 AM

@397. Posted by: shikotee

Could have had the memorial for Jack to say goodbye. He mentioned that he had his dad's eulogy written on a cocktail napkin...Jack needed closure.

#398. Posted by: boodle at May 21, 2008 10:54 AM

The man in black fled into the Jungle.

The gunslinger followed.

Man in black = Ben
gunslinger = John Locke "KnifeSlinger"?


#399. Posted by: SamFin at May 21, 2008 11:19 AM

@398. Posted by: boodle

Just does not seem logical, though I imagine this rather suits Jack's personality!

I wonder though - how did Mama Sheppard handle things when 815 crashed? Correct me if I am wrong, but did not Jack mention (while arguing to be included on 815) that funeral arrangements had been made already?

When 815 went missing, did she delay this? Did she have a service for Christian (without body), and then have one for Jack as he was assumed dead? Or did she do both at the same time? Can you imagine how stressful things must have been for her?

Still - idea of second wake service was pretty lame, but could see Jack doing something like that.

With that said, I would imagine the service would have been more of a media frenzy, considering Jack's O6 status. I don't buy into the fact that the place was as empty (unless it was strict invite only security), but this does not explain how Claire's mom gained entry (or how she was even aware of the service).

#400. Posted by: shikotee at May 21, 2008 11:19 AM

LoL - Now I'm starting to stutter!

After hitting post, I received an error parsing message of some sorts. Never seen that before. So, I went back, and hit post again....

#401. Posted by: shikotee at May 21, 2008 11:23 AM

88. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Thanks

#402. Posted by: berkyo at May 21, 2008 11:32 AM

399. Posted by: SamFin

I re read (scanned) the first books in the Black Tower series because I had put it down a while ago. I am up to Suzanna's story. (Not sure I like this one - prob why I put is aside) Looking at the catchup by King I can see the connections with Lost. I had forgotten a lot of it.I will use the off week to finish . Thanks for reminding me!

#403. Posted by: berkyo at May 21, 2008 11:44 AM

229/Mr_Naysayer "This theory may be a bit out there, but what if we find out that Kate's baby isn't really hers and it is the same Aaron that Claire had on the island? Maybe there is only one baby Aaron!?!?!"


Uh, helloooo. Impossible.

First of all, in "Eggtown" we hear Aaron call Kate "Mommy." Now, some would argue that Aaron calling Kate, "Mommy" in and of itself is enough proof. After all, doesn't a kid know his own mom? But I will take it a step further...

We all know that Claire is Australian - as evidenced by that outrageous accent of hers. Australians give birth to other Australians. So if he were indeed Claire's kid he would in fact be Australian and would not have said "Mommy." He would have said to Kate -with a thick Australian accent, "'ey you, possin' as me mum" and followed it up with some remark about placing a small crustacean on a barbeque and quickly left to wrestle a croc.

But he didn't now did he? No, he called Kate, "Mommy" - absent any Australian accent - thereby proving that he is not Australian and is indeed Kate's biological son.

Come on people. You should have caught this. Sometimes I wonder if we're even watching the same show!

#404. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 21, 2008 11:54 AM

→ 405. Posted by: bcre8ve

That was hysterical!

#405. Posted by: lovelost at May 21, 2008 12:40 PM

@405. Posted by: bcre8ve

This is why I love this blog... I may not completely wrap my mind around some of the theories presented (although I do try and blood sometimes trickles from my ear...), there is such intelligent interchange of ideas and points that one may have missed after 3-4 viewings, but I am almost always entertained!! Thanks bcre8ve for the much needed chuckle while I'm at work!

#406. Posted by: boodle at May 21, 2008 12:55 PM

A brand new article on "Time Asymmetry" and "Multiverses" that a few of you might enjoy. 6+ pages total. First page says enough.

tinyurl.com/4cke5y

#407. Posted by: DocH at May 21, 2008 1:26 PM

→ 159. Posted by: Mizzed
Then again, I could be wrong and the final season could end with the entire cast waking up in bed together with Bob Newhart and Suzanne Pleshette.

Yeah, I'm a little late commenting on this...but the above statement is totally not feasible since unfortunately, Suzanne Pleshette passed away in January.

Instead it's rather likely that the Lost cast will wake up in the shower with Bobby Ewing.

#408. Posted by: JoePike at May 21, 2008 1:41 PM

*403 Berkyo

I hated Suzanna also. But you do get to meet Mordred "an ornery critter if there ever was one"

And nobody but King would have a baby born in a place called Dixie Pig !

Let me know when you get to the Dark Tower. It really exists !!! Maybe

Let's see
Rose - Orchid
Mordred - Arron
This could get interesting.
I would have died if Ben had told Locke. On this island there are 3 doors and behind each door ..... that wouldn't work as the doors couldn't be big enough for a submarine could it?

One other point. I read the original Gunslinger in 1982. And had to wait 22 years to finish the Dark Tower series. Now that dedication !

#409. Posted by: SamFin at May 21, 2008 1:59 PM

409. Posted by: SamFin

I asked you not to say anything! Now I am unkindly disposed towards this Mordred fellow. Wasn't Mordred Arthur's nemesis?
----------------------------------
Correct me if I am wrong....and I am often.

In the pilot part 2 Charlie is remembering the crash. He went from his seat up towards the front of the plane to the bathroom that was right behind the cockpit. The crash begins and he gets maybe 2 seats up the aisle and belts himself in.

That means he was in the front end of the plane in the jungle that he and Jack and Kate just hiked to when the plane went down? So how is he on the beach with the people from the middle?

#410. Posted by: berkyo at May 21, 2008 2:40 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/390
"Do I want to know what a theoretical wormhole is?"

I have been giving the whole wormhole concept more thought, and have determined it could be worked into the Lost script, and perhaps makes more sense.

Let me tackle this concept one more time, and then explain how it works with frame-dragging ideas as described earlier …

In efforts to understand the mathematics behind various cosmological theories, physicists often suggest various “manifolds,” or geometric shapes, as models of the physical universe. Many different manifolds with different topologies have been suggested for this purpose, with common forms being the torus (i.e., doughnut-shaped), sphere, and Moebius strip, among many others (more often than not, too complex to easily visualize in everyday experience, and only approximated by these “everyday” forms … in the same way it’s hard to wrap your mind around what a tesseract “looks” like, so sometimes you’ll see 3-D projections of tesseracts [equivalent to the 2-D projection of a cube being a drawing of a cube] often referred to as “hypercubes,” looking like a smaller cube suspended within a bigger cube by its corners, but I digress). For the purposes of argument, and to keep things simple, let’s go with the sphere, as I think it makes things easiest to understand.

So, imagine the universe is represented by the surface of a partially-inflated balloon (as an aside, the “expansion of the universe” first characterized by Edwin Hubble based upon detected redshift of radiation from distant galaxies, can be thought of as slow inflation of the balloon). Now consider the effect of gravity upon this manifold … a commonly used analogy is to represent “gravity wells” as depressions in the surface of the balloon, such as gently pressing the tip of a dull pencil into the balloon. This creates a little dimple in the surface, and objects in orbit around such a gravitational source can be thought of as slowly rolling around this depression, like those “coin wells” you may have seen at the mall, where you roll the coin down the ramp and it slowly goes round and round the well, until eventually falling in (the difference is that the coin falls in because of slowing down due to friction, while planets around a star don’t follow such a “death spiral,” as empty space doesn’t provide enough friction to slow them down, so they just keep going round and round in stable orbits).

Now, imagine a black hole as being a really big depression in the surface of the balloon … this is difficult to “accurately” model, since it would be more like a really, really steep and deep depression in the balloon’s surface, while not being much “bigger” than the depression produced by the pencil at the surface. However, for the sake of argument, lets say a black hole is represented by pressing your forefinger into the weakly-inflated balloon. Now let’s say there’s another black hole somewhat nearby, represented by pressing your thumb into the balloon. It’s easy to imagine pressing your thumb and forefinger together, such that they touch within the balloon, separated only by the skin of the balloon. Now imagine you could fuse the balloon’s skin together at the very point your thumb and forefinger “touch,” without popping the balloon, leaving a small hole/tube directly through the middle of the balloon’s interior. This is essentially how a wormhole is supposed to work.

Note that the “gravity wells” of each black hole are still on the surface topology of the balloon, and traveling from one black hole to the other by “normal” means would require one to traverse the distance between your thumb and forefinger across the outer surface of the balloon; in terms of the universe, this distance could be many light years of space. However, the “pits” of each gravity well occupy the same space (or more properly, spacetime). In this sense, going through a “wormhole” would not be as typically shown in sci-fi movies, with the travelers going through some long, twisting, unusually-lighted tunnel. Instead, it would be more like stepping through a doorway between two rooms, except the rooms would happen to be in different buildings, miles apart!

Also note that in order to traverse such a wormhole, the same basic requirements hold as previously mentioned for the “frame-dragging” concept. Namely, there would need to be rotating black holes on both sides, with stable Cauchy horizons, such that the traveler could pass through without having to enter the inner event horizons. As such, the “evidence” pointing to frame-dragging could also point to a wormhole. However, the reason I originally discounted a wormhole is because one has no control over the entry and exit points … the black holes are fixed in spacetime. Then I realized though, that the same frame-dragging effects could be applied to the black hole(s) associated with the wormhole. Maybe a combination of effects is being called upon in Lost.

This could also explain a few things. For example, how the plane ended up crashing in daylight; maybe the island is at the other end of the wormhole, perhaps on a different planet. Maybe this planet was/is populated by the four-toed people? I know, now I’m *really* starting to reach, but it makes some sense.

The “course” would still be essential to either altering one’s destination on one side of the wormhole, or to successfully passing through to the “other side.” The island would then be “uncharted,” because it doesn’t exist on planet Earth. There are a ton of holes in this variation of the theory, but come on, there are a ton of holes in this line of thinking in general! Just for instance, why do travelers sometimes end up in odd places/times on the Earth side of the wormhole (like Tunisia), yet always end up on or near the island on the other side? If the island is on another planet, why don’t people “off-course” sometimes end up in its equivalent of Tunisia, or wherever, far from the island? The only thing that makes any sense to me, would be restriction of “course” into the wormhole, imposed by the planet’s surface (i.e., travelers can only affect their direction within an entry plane, roughly defined by sea level, rather than from any direction in 3-D space), and course entry within this plane restricts destination “offsets” to time-only on the island side, but always the same approximate destination/location. Kind of a reach, but the only thing that makes sense.

Yet there I go again, pretending ANY of this makes sense! :)

#411. Posted by: ealgumby at May 21, 2008 3:04 PM

My issue with the black hole/wormhole theory is that a black hole is an intense gravitational pull, drawing matter into it from the surrounding outer horizon. On earth, scientists can see black holes lights years away. The image of a black hole is like the photograph of a hurricane as it swirls surrounding matter into its dark eye. To have a stable black hole, needed for time travel, it should be clearly visible in the Pacific Ocean, less than a 1000 miles from Fiji.

#412. Posted by: welh at May 21, 2008 3:31 PM

@DocH/407

Thanks for the link ... interesting reading.

I also saw this story today at CNN:

tinyurl.com/5alu4z

The point I found of interest here is the possibility of essentially creating "a black hole in a box," and that black holes do not need to be planet munchers. The black hole(s) used to get to/from the island on Lost also do not need to be gigantic; just large enough to induce frame-dragging effects and with a "space" large enough between the horizons to pass through.

A rather small black hole would also have a very localized region of space-warping/frame-dragging, such that a rather "large" object attempting to pass through could experience serious tidal forces between the front and back ends of the object. Perhaps these tidal forces are why the trip has been shown/suggested as being very rough on the helo and sub, and perhaps why 815 broke up during its traversal ... it was simply too big, and not strong enough, to withstand the different gravitational forces at its nose and tail, so literally torn apart.

#413. Posted by: ealgumby at May 21, 2008 3:39 PM

After watching the episode again:

In the opening scene, as the camera pans back from the clouds to the interior of the cockpit, there is a box on top of the dashboard of the plane (forgive my techno-speak, lol) that reads “Altitude” and shows four zeros. Is this the altimeter, and if so, why would it be at zero?

On the beach, when they hear Keamy on the sat phone talking about the Orchid, why doesn’t Daniel tell Jack and Kate whatever he knows about the doomsday protocol? Why does he let them go off into the jungle after the helo? He seems to want to get everyone to safety, so why not tell the truth?

Once again, why would Jack, Sayid, Sun and Hurley participate in the lie that Aaron is Kate’s son, especially when they know she is a fugitive and facing criminal charges? Maybe Claire told them before they left the island that she wants Kate to care for Aaron, and not her family?

If Sun took over Paik Industries as a resource to search for the island and Jin, wouldn’t she want to start the search immediately after she gains control? She tells her father that first she will have her baby, and then they will discuss the future of the company. Doesn’t sound too urgent about her plans, whatever they are.

At Hugo’s birthday party, Sayid is already wearing a wedding ring. And does Nadia have major sweat stains, or is that just an unfortunately patterned dress? ;)

The dude that’s captaining the boat now seems very willing to take orders from Des.

What does Jin say to Sun in Korean, after they find the explosive? He ends the sentence with, “Now!” Is he just telling her to get back up on deck, or something more? Why didn’t they subtitle it?

Do Sayid and Kate know who Alpert is? Have they ever met before?

Who’s watering the plants at the Orchid? Does Patchy have a green thumb?

#414. Posted by: Clementine at May 21, 2008 3:49 PM

re Aaron being Kate's Aaron or Claire's Aaron

I would also like to submit for your consideration another clue you seem to have overlooked. Obviously the woman at Christian's memorial is not the grandmother of the baby in Kate's arms. She very clearly identifies her daughter as Clee-ya. And the reason for Jack's expression will be revealed in an upcoming future flash where Jack and Kate are having breakfast at Mr. Cluck's Chicken prior to the service.

#415. Posted by: Clementine at May 21, 2008 4:01 PM

@welh/412

While a small black hole wouldn't necessarily be as obvious as you might think, one would expect it to keep growing, in which case it eventually would become obvious, unless somehow constrained.

The other option is technological, such as a Tipler Cylinder, or other advanced device capable of inducing frame-dragging effects. I'm not sure what the implications are in terms of neededing a Casimir effect generator with such a device though, so the black hole idea seems to fit the Lost evidence better (so far). Perhaps there is some advanced tech to be introduced on Lost (in the Orchid Station basement?) which can keep the black holes from growing?

While the possibility of two small black holes residing on planets at opposite ends of a wormhole (or even one, looping through "time" back into itself?) is hard to swallow, perhaps this where we need to suspend disbelief, and bring theological issues into play.

#416. Posted by: ealgumby at May 21, 2008 4:04 PM

Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof are very funny... I kind of have that "random" sense of humor, and they do too. I don't know, I like reading/listening/watching that kind of stuff.

@ meg - 396
No!!! The brain is the best part!!! That's why I picked the left side... because the left side of his brain is the "analytical/ben" side.

----------------------

I love how it's so easy to support an un-realistic theory with LOST.

I mean, using Mr_Naysayer's "Maybe Aaron is really Claire's son" blah blah blah, I bet someone like ealgumby, or maybe even Mr_Naysayer if he tried, or even Vacc could make that sound convincing and make someone who didn't know it was certain believe it.

I'm not sure if I said that right, but you know what I mean.

I think ealgumby did that before with a "DUH" theory, a while back. I can't remember what it was about.

Very funny.

ONCE AGAIN EVERYONE: This is a show of allusions. Everything alludes to something!!!

#417. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 21, 2008 4:17 PM

4-12 (83) There's No Place Like Home (1)

Six escape the isle
Inside a web of deceit
Where are all the rest?

#418. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 21, 2008 4:34 PM

→ 411. Posted by: ealgumby
RE: black holes/balloon analogy/frame dragging/wormholes/and all that other scientific stuff.

I couldn't have said it better. ;-)

Seriously, every time I read one of your posts, I say to myself: Who IS this guy????

Regardless, I'm always glad you landed here and I always feel smarter after I read your entries. At least for a while. Until the information bleeds out of my nose.

#419. Posted by: lovelost at May 21, 2008 4:48 PM

353/Robislost "In the future, if any of you spot me at some lame Lost-Con, wearing a Hurley wig and calling every chick dude, please kill me on the spot"

If that happens and you are indeed killed on the spot, can I have your Camaro and your $150 mil?

242/Genghis "My current Camaro odometer reading...052908"

Assuming thats 05290.8

Only 42860.8 more miles to go. Make sure you reset your trip odometer at 47917.4.

#420. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 21, 2008 5:00 PM

@Gumby
- - - -
I read the CNN article on black holes. It supports my ideas somewhat. The 'portal' on the island is very small (not a planet muncher). No incredible, unsurvivable acceleration to near light speed. The phenomena is so flat that it is almost two dimensional... height, width, almost no depth. Associated gravity is only slightly higher than surrounding gravity. No one is 'drawn' to the event horizon... you can easily approach it and move away - as long as you don't cross any portion of it... then you are going thru it. Passing thru is almost instanteous and not harmful, just dis-orienting (Ben on back in Tunisia). The portal exists almost in a microstate, a tiny bounce (flux) in time. Question is, as a small "Arrow in Time", does it go both directions in time?

#421. Posted by: DocH at May 21, 2008 5:41 PM

@ 416/ ealgumby
If the black hole is a small box, that could be used for individual time shifting, that's one thing. But if you are going to shift an entire island . . . . it would have to be bigger than a bread box.

Which gets me to thinking that Locke's line that we are going to move the island is basically a metaphor and not a physical displacement. Example, if moving the island is really an electro-magnetic signal that changes compass bearings so when the boat or heli uses the old bearings it reaches a new location in the middle of the ocean. Magic - - the island is gone but it is believed to be gone.

#422. Posted by: welh at May 21, 2008 5:41 PM

re: 421. To finish that rambling thought... Richard Alpert seems unaged in all of the different flashback timelines, appearing immortal-ish. Maybe he is JUST ONLY 35 years old. Maybe he just gets to certain (recent) events and then travels back to attempt to change the future of those he contacts, so things are in his favor now.

Alpert in early Dec 04 after reviewing Lockes' personnel folder: "What? That Abaddon guy tried to recruit Locke in the hospital? We can't have this. I'll go back and try to recruit Locke in High School. If that doesn't change the present, I'll go farther back and..." (you get my point.)

This may also explain alot about Desmond - forces trying to recruit pre-island Des, much like Locke was being recruited.

#423. Posted by: DocH at May 21, 2008 5:55 PM

@Mr_Naysayer/340
"Ealgumby - help me develop this theory! This one may actually have some threads of possibilty in it..."

@DocH/423
"Richard Alpert seems unaged in all of the different flashback timelines, appearing immortal-ish. Maybe he is JUST ONLY 35 years old. Maybe he just gets to certain (recent) events and then travels back to attempt to change the future of those he contacts, so things are in his favor now."

Didn't forget you Mr. Naysayer ... just couldn't come up with something interesting ... try this on for size ...

Richard Alpert is Aaron! From the future! Not only that, but RA/Aaron is ALSO Jacob! Jacob(RA/Aaron) needs to be contained by the "ash ring" to keep him from contacting RA and/or Aaron, else the hysteria suggested by the two Bunny #15's touching in the orchid Vid! THAT'S why Claire had to leave Aaron behind, before venturing to the cabin ... she's in an apparent state of drug-induced rapture, because her SON (Jacob/RA) spoke to her!

Is that off the wall enough for ya?

#424. Posted by: ealgumby at May 21, 2008 6:10 PM

→ 424. Posted by: ealgumby
- - - -
Good start... but it may take eight more months, to Jan 09, for that theory to start filling-in the training bra you just bought it.

Still, I like the part where Richard Herbert Alpert went back to the late '60s - early '70s and made all of that great music with the Tiajuana Brass.

#425. Posted by: DocH at May 21, 2008 6:49 PM

411. Posted by: ealgumby
And everyone else bouncing ideas back and forth.

Thank you so much for the time travel for dummies. I understood the balloon thing perfectly. These are all REAL scientific theories? wow.

It may not be exactly what is happening on the show, but it is fascinating.
And it COULD be what is happening on the show. Or something like it.

Does it have to be another world?

#426. Posted by: berkyo at May 21, 2008 7:26 PM

411/413/416-ealgumby

One reason I landed on this blog was the quality of the thought process- those were really outstanding posts on a very difficult topic.

C&L have said that they have mapped out a consistent internal construct that involves theoretical science, rather than a supernatural explanation. In addition, Clementine recently posted an interview that affirmed that the events we are watching are "real", i.e. they will not paint themselves into a "that was all a dream" type corner.

Even so, I would be very surprised if the ultimate solution involves alien technology and/or the island existing on another planet. I could be very wrong on this, but intuitively it just doesn't seem to fit- it would almost be too tidy.

If I understood your posts correctly, the island would be a stationary place, and only objects or people would travel through this "black hole in a box", as opposed to the entire island.

I know others have argued that the island is in a fixed place on our earth, but in a world of satellite imaging where every square mile of the globe is mapped and remapped, how could you possibly explain the time and money both Charles Widmore and Penny Widmore have spent to locate the island?

It would also be inconsistent with Ben's statement to Widmore that he would never find the island (presumably a flash forward, since he already found it once with the freighter crew).

And even if the island could be "moved" to different co-ordinates, how could that fact possibly be concealed?

One of the fascinating things about Lost is how it seems to combine cutting edge physics with the major philosophical questions about God and the nature of the universe. Perhaps the physicist (man of science, i.e. Jack) and the philospher (man of faith, i.e. Locke) are both needed to solve the final puzzle.

The more I study the references placed in the episodes, the more I'm gravitating to the parallel universe or multiverse concept that Hawking, Kaku and others have theorized about, with the blackhole/wormhole concept serving as the portal or intersection.

In other words, the freighter didn't locate the island- it located the portal that allowed access to the island. Rather than moving the island, you move the location of the portal.

The multiverse concept that every possible action and decision is played out somewhere also seems to fit with the issues of choice, free will and destiny that figure so prominently in many of the lost character story arcs.

This theory is also very consistent with many of the literary references already discussed- Baum's Oz, Lewis' Narnia- as well as Hindu cosmology (the Dharma initiative).

#427. Posted by: Mizzed at May 21, 2008 7:30 PM

→ 427. Posted by: Mizzed
... but in a world of satellite imaging where every square mile of the globe is mapped and remapped...
- - - -
that is part of the gravity, EM, science part of it. The island isn't visible. It is not that the island is not there. It is just that light reflecting off of it can't escape to the point that it can be seen. Swan Hatch implodes - purple sky - Faraday saying the light on the island is odd - Faraday notices how the vegetation grows oddly... plus folks 'accidently' run into in balloons, sailboats, drug pplanes, etc...

#428. Posted by: DocH at May 21, 2008 8:03 PM

DocH/428: "that is part of the gravity, EM, science part of it. The island isn't visible. It is not that the island is not there. It is just that light reflecting off of it can't escape to the point that it can be seen."

I've had the same thought before re: the magnetic force on the island distorting the light and therefore the visibility, but ultimately discarded it b/c the island is clearly visible to its inhabitants- other than Faraday's remark about the light, no other characters have mentioned that the light is any different than it would be anywhere else.

In addition, the island is visible to at least some flying objects (Frank can safely land the helicopter), and at the horizon level, there have been many occurrences where characters have been on boats at significant distance from the island and had no problem navigating back to the island by sight (Jin and Bernard's fishing expeditions, Desmond and Charlie rowing to the spot over the Looking Glass, the zodiac ferrying escapees back and forth from the freighter, etc.).

If there is a scientific explanation on how an object can go from completely invisible to fully visible at a particular, specific distance, rather than the normal sight progression of invisible/to dim/to hazy/to visible, it would be interesting to hear about it.

#429. Posted by: Mizzed at May 21, 2008 8:56 PM

→ 411, 413, 416. ealgumby: Theoretical wormholes, etc.:

Thank you very much...very clear description! I "got" the balloon idea perfectly.

Regarding the issue of why people/things end up in various places but all seem to start from the island, could there be more than one "wormhole" & all "wormholes" start from the island? I visualize it as a sort of daisy, w/each "wormhole" making a sort of petal & the island being the yellow center (or a brown center, if one envisions a black-eyed Susan instead).

→ 418. Cecil Rose: Haiku:

Once again a great verse! I think there should be a section of the site for all your haiku so they can be read in order start to finish.

→ 422. welh: "Magically" moving the island:

That seems very logical & much more practical than actually moving the entire island in either time or space.

#430. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 21, 2008 9:26 PM

431th??

@415. Posted by: Clementine
My contribution here will be poultry compared to your fine wit.

After seeing the replays tonight, here are some random thoughts.

Did anyone comment previously about how awesome Jin was when he threatened Charlotte in Korean? He and Bernard are cool. They should have a spinoff show -- "Jin and the Dentist" or something.

Here's a farfetched theory -- Sawyer is really Jack. My evidence? He suddenly changes from Mr. Con Man to Aaron's Protector. And the kicker: Miles comments to Sawyer, "What are you, her big brother?"

I wish someone could do a sound check because I am even more convinced on a second viewing that the voice in the shower was Juliet at first....and not just because she had appeared in the preceding scene on the island. The vocal pitch was much closer to Juliet's than Kate's until she came out of the shower. There's something very fishy going on.

Also, I think Kate's evasivenss with Jack off the island will become important. Maybe she's working for Ben, as Sayid is. Her mission could be to keep Jack happy and, more important, off the island OR it could be to be Aaron's keeper for when he replaces Locke.

Here's my prediction: season 4 ends with the same scene as season 3 ended, with Jack saying, "We have to go back." But now we'll know why.

#431. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 21, 2008 10:24 PM

@410 Berkyo:

No No I met ornery in a cute little momma's boy kinda way. A real charmer.

Good catch on Mordred being Arthurs Nemesis. But I'm sure that's only a Coincidence.

Only thing you can be sure of when the time comes it will be a WTF moment as nobody can figure out Stephen King at his best.

It took me 2 days after finishing the book before I could get a handle on what I thought of the series.

Enjoy !

#432. Posted by: SamFin at May 21, 2008 11:20 PM

@Mizzed/427

>>>
C&L have said that they have mapped out a consistent internal construct that involves theoretical science, rather than a supernatural explanation. ...

Even so, I would be very surprised if the ultimate solution involves alien technology and/or the island existing on another planet. ...

I know others have argued that the island is in a fixed place on our earth, but in a world of satellite imaging where every square mile of the globe is mapped and remapped, how could you possibly explain the time and money both Charles Widmore and Penny Widmore have spent to locate the island? ...

The more I study the references placed in the episodes, the more I'm gravitating to the parallel universe or multiverse concept that Hawking, Kaku and others have theorized about, with the blackhole/wormhole concept serving as the portal or intersection.

In other words, the freighter didn't locate the island- it located the portal that allowed access to the island. Rather than moving the island, you move the location of the portal.
>>>

Several points ... first of all, I prefer to reference Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse as "D&C" rather than "C&L" (or L&C or C&D), just because of the poetic justice invoked by "D&C," aka in medical terms known as dilation and curettage ... won't go non-PC here and define it, but suggests how I feel about what they are doing to my mind with this show! Damon & Carlton ... D&C ... apropos, and I'm sticking with it!

I have given more thought to an idea I just kinda threw out there at the end of my #416 post ... what if the black hole is a wormhole to itself in a different time? Consider this scenario ... as I mentioned in #411, the universe is known to be expanding, and by the analogy I presented there, let's suppose the "current" universe is represented by a slightly bigger balloon than the "past" universe, represented by a slightly smaller one within the current one. Now let's suppose that the "wormhole" is a connection between the same place in the "old universe" and the "current universe", represented by somehow pressing the "inner balloon" to touch the "outer balloon." I have several theories of how this could happen (involving the Moebius Strip concept), but let's just say, for the sake of argument, that it does ... then there could be a "wormhole" from the same "place" space-wise to different times ... essentially a wormhole "to itself" in different times. This would simplify the situation entirely ... there would not need to be two rotating black holes at opposite ends of a wormhole (increasing the likelihood by many orders of magnitude), nor another habitable planet at the other end (yet another several orders of magnitude in likelihood), nor the likelihood that the black hole at the other end is stable (blah blah blah likelihood) ... in short, it goes from metaphysically impossible, to reasonable.

Re mapping the planet ... as it happens to be, this is more or less my line of work. What you have to realize, is that remote-sensing people are looking more for what they EXPECT to find, and "random anomalies" are typically ignored. That's not to say it's a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of the science (to shoot down those who think global warming is bunk ... it's NOT), but rather confirmation of recognized trends, either short-term or long-term. Unless some otherwise incredibly bored newbie happens to notice a geophysical pattern to detected "anomalous" signatures (as I did as a 2nd Lt. in the AF with regard to "something" I wasn't supposed to notice, which brought NSA attention ... not to worry, now declassified, and of our own creation ... no aliens or black holes involved), they would go unnoticed.

I think you have an over-inflated view of what is "picked up" by remote sensing equipment ...

#433. Posted by: ealgumby at May 21, 2008 11:20 PM

→ 434.
Abaddon not ABBA-don, not the 70s Scandinavian pop group. Saw the FRINGE tease several times this week. Abrams? (LOST) and writers (Heroes?) are behind it. Looks good. Maybe a little X-Files-ish. Don't know. Looking forward to your HOUSE review. Good stuff (HARD WORK ehh?).

Penny (Sonia W.) has done much elsewhere since the start of LOST. Hasn't hurt her much. Reddick will survive.
- - - -
→ 433.
You did read the SCI-AMERICAN link from early... liked the wormhole to itself concept. Do any SRTM work (my fave) back in the day?
- - - -
Worst part of my day... ENHANCED Versions of LOST are not CANON or even SEMI-CANON, they are NON-CANON. And here I thought they were producer inspired, or at least endorsed. Thanks Lostpedia.

#434. Posted by: DocH at May 22, 2008 12:08 AM

I'm so glad that I never read past comment #60.

#435. Posted by: Eric at May 22, 2008 2:05 AM

@Eric/433: “I'm so glad that I never read past comment #60.”

Eric, I completely understand. It takes a hearty constitution to navigate the wilderness of conjecture, speculation, and silliness here on the Lost Blog. Venturing past the campfire light of Mac’s review can be a dangerous proposition. Thar be polar bears, flying Monkeys and wild theorists in them thar hills.

A reader can become Lost for days in untamed supposition and twisting pathways of thought, where the Yellow Brick Road takes misleading turns into the outback of science, fiction, and fantasy, and where the Emerald City of Answers is but a hazy mirage on the horizon.

Luckily, the forest abounds with animated branches of bad puns, silly acronyms, and endless rhymes, waiting to tickle-fight the unwary traveler into submission and occasionally to snatch a misguided fool from the quicksand of his own ego. On a good day, one may stumble upon the meadow of companionship, where gentle haiku floats through the air like the puff of a dandelion, and troubadours delight the crowd with stories and song while weary adventurers sharpen their wit on photo captions, and the sunshine of Reason and Enlightenment breaks through the clouds.

If you find yourself on the rough road of the same old discussions, it’s encouraging to know that new supplies arrive often via internet airdrop, most recently including Jin’s Flashlight, an Apollo bar and, just for fun, our very own Skipper doll and Mizzed (we’re not quite sure what that is, but we’re enjoying it, nonetheless). Lurkers are de-lurking at a delightful rate this season.

Remember, the scrollbar is your best weapon of defense, akin only to Ben’s telescoping baton in the awesomeness of its power. And in the event of a true emergency, Cindy’s Scarf can be used as comic relief and/or to strangle your foe.

You are right to be wary. But risk has its rewards. Come join us further down the Blog. I promise, we don’t bite. Without provocation, that is. ;)

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area we call Mac’s Lost Blog.

Namasté

#436. Posted by: Clementine at May 22, 2008 5:52 AM

doo-doo-dodoo-do-do-dodoo . . .


(Well, I AM a composer - somebody has to be musical director around here . . .)

#437. Posted by: davidrh at May 22, 2008 7:04 AM

#411 (ealgumby)
"Instead, it would be more like stepping through a doorway between two rooms, except the rooms would happen to be in different buildings, miles apart!"

I suppose that's where egyptian symbols, stargate and Lost intersect ;)

Let's just assume the multiverse theory is correct (I think it is since this allows to avoid the typical time paradoxons of simply going back and forth in time which we all know from Terminator et al.). But how could the existence of the smoke monster be explained without the assumption of some highly advanced (alien?) technology? I don't believe the story goes like "advanced humans of the future send this stuff back in time by using wormhole(s)". I think an alien influence makes more sense with regard to the Lost story. Another possible explanation would be the standard "Alias" mystery plot: "some human genius from the past (or the future) invented all this crazy stuff" -- personally, I would clearly prefer an explanation involving alien technology.

In the end, the big picture of the plot won't matter much to me. I've learned to appreciate the genius and the innovations in some of the subplots.

#438. Posted by: Margot at May 22, 2008 8:00 AM

I saw the new Indiana Jones movie last night. I could've swore that one of the scenes was a shout out to the smoke monster. I know that TPTB (Lost) have made several shout outs to Lucas and Spielberg so I wouldn't be too surprised. Anyway I found it interesting and wondered if anyone else had the same thought.

#439. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 22, 2008 8:31 AM


I, as many of us do, tramp through a number of “Lost” sites to see what others are saying every week . . . Interesting to note that the writer of one blog - who always has some interesting things to say, but for some reason doesn’t have a very big following of blogger commentors - started his last analysis with this comment:

“I was actually pretty surprised when I returned home this week by the total lack of analysis and chatter about this episode on the various Internet sites.”

He OBVIOUSLY hasn’t been to this site. (If he did, his brain would probably explode within the first 60 minutes of trolling . . .)

#440. Posted by: davidrh at May 22, 2008 8:35 AM

@ 436 - Clementine

Wow Clementine!! You have captured my existence here perfectly, many of the reasons I return each day...

#441. Posted by: lostinVT at May 22, 2008 8:38 AM

BTW, Bcre8ve . . .How's the new "Simpson-character-avatar-whatever-
you-call-it" collection coming?

#442. Posted by: davidrh at May 22, 2008 8:38 AM

Mizzed@427 said, "In other words, the freighter didn't locate the island- it located the portal that allowed access to the island. Rather than moving the island, you move the location of the portal."

You said it so succinctly! And I concur.

#443. Posted by: undaunted at May 22, 2008 9:10 AM

→ Posted by: Clementine: Why we're here:

Exactly! What a great piece of writing...this editor wouldn't change a word. Thanks!

#444. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 22, 2008 9:15 AM

@436 Clementine:

Wow! That comment should be bronzed and posted at the head od the Lost blog.

#445. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 22, 2008 9:16 AM

442/davidrh "BTW, Bcre8ve . . .How's the new "Simpson-character-avatar-whatever-you-call-it" collection coming?"

Its going well. Slow, but well. I hope to do the big reveal before next week's show.

In case anyone's wondering what this is about, go to: http://tinyurl*com/3j8usw

Here is a list of everyone from whom I have received a South Park avatar. If you have sent me an avatar but are not on the list, please re-email it to writeme @ bcre8ve.com (remove the blanks.)

ANON2
Cecil Rose
clementine
Crispy Seaplanes
Danny
DharmaDolphin
Doc_H
ealgumby
EthansGrrl
FenwayBen
ilovebenjaminlinusxx
JoePike
Kaseygirl106
LostonPhonics
mac
Mister Grimm
MorBid0
Not an Other
Prosecutor67
RNM
Shikotee
sillygirl0630
SP LOST
trinity
Undaunted
vacc
Wumbawoman

BTW, regulars that I have noticed missing from the list are:
Alaïs_Longthought
meg
*DAVIDRH*

#446. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 22, 2008 9:18 AM

@Clementine/ #436: If they gave Pulitzers for comments, you'd be a shoo-in. *Very* nicely put.

#447. Posted by: mac at May 22, 2008 9:26 AM

Clem wrote "...Venturing past the campfire light of Mac’s review..." and "...where gentle haiku floats through the air like the puff of a dandelion..."

Clem, love your writing...I could be crushing on you. Jeez I hope yer a girl. Not that there would be anything wrong with it...

I've oft aspired to such dextrous wordsmithing but rarely succeed. I write the Earl blog right next door and if Mac knew I was barely literate he'd fire me on the spot.

#448. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 22, 2008 9:30 AM

Becre8ve:

Sorry - I did send you a message very early on following your announcement of a new picture. what I said in that message was that LAST YEAR'S PICTURE WAS SO RIGHT ON that you could simply repeat it. I was trying to minimize the work for you.

(Looking back at my picture with DarrellAnn last year, the resemblance
is uncanny, to say the least.)

#449. Posted by: davidrh at May 22, 2008 9:47 AM

@ davidrh

Yeah, I was hopin' you'd reconsidered. I'd rather not mix the Simpsons and South Parkers. Who knows what chaos might ensue?

#450. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 22, 2008 9:53 AM

&436 / Clementine

Thanks you made my day !

#451. Posted by: SamFin at May 22, 2008 10:20 AM

@450 bcre8ve mentiojned:

>Yeah, I was hopin' you'd reconsidered. I'd rather not mix the Simpsons and South Parkers. Who knows what chaos might ensue?

That said, i thought my Simpsons version captured me much better that anything I could come up with on South Park, although I was a little rushed and may go back and give it another try.

#452. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 22, 2008 10:20 AM

=============O
@434 DocH grumbled:

>Worst part of my day... ENHANCED Versions of LOST are not CANON or even SEMI-CANON, they are NON-CANON. And here I thought they were producer inspired, or at least endorsed. Thanks Lostpedia.

I’m not sure where you’re getting this from. Lostpedia says:

“Due to the WGA strike, producers Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse had no involvement in the production of the enhanced version of "Through the Looking Glass". It is unknown whether the writing staff have had input on the enhanced episodes that followed after the ending of the strike. Because of this, it was unknown whether the captioned information should be considered canon. On April 17, 2008, the producers settled the matter when they said, "The enhanced episode is sort of like a Cliff Notes for the shows."”

Sounds sort of like at least a semi-endorsement to me.

=============O
Has everyone seen "Lost in 8:15"? If not, it’s here:

http://tinyurl*com/5klqgx

Now the same folks have done another, even more condensed summary, updated through the first 9 eps of this year – "Lost in 4:24", and it’s here:

http://tinyurl*com/56m6e3

Yeah, it really should have been Lost in 4:23, but the 4:24 was a reference to the start date, April 24, of the new episodes after the writer’s strike.

=============O
441 lostinVT:

Are you:

1) DaveVT changing persona?
2) Another Hokie?
3) From Vermont
4) Something else?

Cecil Rose, VT/AsE/ Class of ‘68

=============O

#453. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 22, 2008 10:24 AM

@ Cecil Rose

1) DaveVT changing persona? - Nope
2) Another Hokie? - well, sometimes I can be hokey.....
3) From Vermont - Yup, most southern VT you can get :-)
4) Something else? - ummmm, well, I have a lot of redeeming qualities :-)

#454. Posted by: lostinVT at May 22, 2008 10:58 AM

I watched part of the enhanced Lost last night. DVR'd the rest, had to watch Idol when my family came home. The part I found the funniest was when it started the first popup said "This is a flashforward"

Go David Cook!

#455. Posted by: LostMamacita at May 22, 2008 11:07 AM

Yeah, I was hopin' you'd reconsidered. I'd rather not mix the Simpsons and South Parkers. Who knows what chaos might ensue?
Å® 450. Posted by: bcre8ve

Well, sadly - because you will now consider me a real stick in the mud or some kind of intellectual snob - I must admit that I’ve never watched either the Simpsons OR South Park. I’ve only seen the characters in commercials and didn’t realize that they all didn’t - like Japanese cartoons - LOOK EXACTLY ALIKE!

duh.

Well, if I have to look like something in South Park, just make me up. You did a great job last time!

DAVID

#456. Posted by: davidrh at May 22, 2008 11:25 AM

@Clementine/ #436:

OMD Clementine. Wow. Just...Wow.


Your eloquent prose,
like the scent of a rose,
made me laugh and cry,
(and I'm a masculine guy!)

You were meant to write,
long into the night,
so keep your fingers typing,
since thoughts fade like lightning...

Alternate old-school version:

so keep your pen on paper,
lest your thoughts remain vapor...

#457. Posted by: JoePike at May 22, 2008 11:51 AM

→ 436. Posted by: Clementine

Bravo! Perfectly and cleverly stated. A delight to read, and a tribute to Mac and his following.

#458. Posted by: lovelost at May 22, 2008 12:11 PM

→ 433. ealgumby: "I think you have an over-inflated view of what is "picked up" by remote sensing equipment ..."

My comment about Google Earth was more flippant than anything else- I wasn't actually suggesting that Widmore could simply position a satellite or open a page of a Rand McNally atlas and quickly locate the island.

However, if the island is a real, visible place with a fixed location, I find it hard to believe that Widmore, given enough time, money and resources, would be unable to locate it, whether that be through remote sensing of electromagnetic anomalies, and/or through an exhaustive visual search by satellite, air and sea.

I also realize that all sides of the argument of whether the island can or cannot be found are ultimately absurd, since we are dealing with a fictional place. If the writers decide it can be "found", it will be, and vice versa.

Still, it makes for an enjoyable way to pass the time while waiting for the season finale...

#459. Posted by: Mizzed at May 22, 2008 1:06 PM

@436/Clementine - Thanks for the smile!! You've just made reading through 436 posts on a blog the most rewarding experience ever!!

@Everyone - Thanks for being the reason why anyone would ever read through 436 posts on a blog!!

#460. Posted by: vacc at May 22, 2008 1:11 PM

@431 Scooby-Dude said >> I am even more convinced on a second viewing that the voice in the shower was Juliet at first...

I think the voice was a technically enhanced (masked) version of Kate's meant to create ambiguity or to misdirect us until the visual reveal. They did this in Sayid's flash forward too - the voice we heard in the moments before we learned that he was working for Ben seemed to also be altered or masked.

#461. Posted by: vacc at May 22, 2008 1:34 PM

@436/Clementine

Yea! I got a shout out in Clem's post.... I feel so loved!!

Thanks, Clem, that was awesome :):):):)

#462. Posted by: Skipper at May 22, 2008 1:37 PM

In addition to the Lost summaries 8:15 and 4:24 I cited above, I should have mentioned the best two season 1 and 2 summaries ever (Bonus- to a polka beat):

Lost Rhapsody on You Tube: (Season 1)

http://tinyurl*com/6yt9hq


Lost Rhapsody 2 on You Tube: (Season 2)

http://tinyurl*com/5mqr7y

Unfortuantely, to the best of my knowledge, he's never done a Season 3 (yet) - maybe he just hasn't found the right polka - but there is a partial season 3 tribute - sorry, no polka ;( - at:

http://tinyurl*com/33twmr

#463. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 22, 2008 1:44 PM

#436-Clementine

GO CLEM!...GO CLEM!....GO CLEM!.... :)

LOVED IT

PEACE&LOVE TO ALL

#464. Posted by: tiffani at May 22, 2008 2:01 PM

@453 CR
I’m not sure where you’re getting this from.
- - - -
www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Lostpedia:Canon

I read it from their own list. Item #4 under "NON-CANON", specifically...

"Information given on Enhanced episodes. These are provided by a third-party company, and not created by the production team." ...

(helps to be a lawyer to get thru the link above, tho I'm not, not that there is anyhing wrong with that... being a lawyer.)

#465. Posted by: DocH at May 22, 2008 2:01 PM

Hey, thanks for the kind words, you all everybody! We are truly greater than the sum of our parts around here.

No Lost tonight, but I remain unspoiled and eagerly anticipating the answer to my most burning question: Why DID Jack shave his chest hair? ;)

#466. Posted by: Clementine at May 22, 2008 3:14 PM

a co-worker of mine said she heard on one of the local radio stations(they were doing their daily entertainment reporting) that matthew fox is the only actor of the lost gang that knows how the SERIES is going to end and that he signed a cnfidentially agreement. not sure how true the info is but that's what they reported. :)

can someone possibly kidnapp,torture and convince him to tell us all the answers. :)

peace&love to all

#467. Posted by: tiffani at May 22, 2008 3:35 PM

@@@@@@@@

@ 401 - bcre8ve -

Ahh... more clues - BRILLIANT! I never thought about the fact that if Aaron was indeed Claire's baby, he would be talking in an Austrailian accent. So there is the total end all proof that he must really be Kate's baby. End of Story.

(On a sad note - not a side note - I am sure there are a handful of people that think I am being serious when I post those outlandish comments... as proof of some people actually questioning me and saying I am totally wrong... uh, duh! haha!)

Has anyone seen my lost stuffed animal? It is a panda with a scarf on, smoking a bong. Let me know if anyone stumbles across it. It was supposed to be a late Valentine's Day present for Meg... or for Ilovebenlinusxxxx... I haven't decided which yet (in comparison to Kate not knowing who to choose - Jack or Sawyer)?!?!? I love them both... my biggest fans!

Peace.

@@@@@@@@

#468. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 22, 2008 3:36 PM

@436/Clementine

I echo all the kudos...nicely said Clementine. I am so thankful that I stumbled onto this Lost blog. Lost can be enjoyed on all levels and the few people in my life that watch Lost enjoy it simply as a really good show. Thanks to Mac and all on this blog for providing me a place to go to delve deeper.

@465/DocH

I DVR'ed the two enhanced episodes last night hoping to get some insight...anything... I bounced back and forth between Lost, American Idol (love David C) and the Orioles and Yankees game. I wasn't really getting anything from the enhanced version...ended up deleting them this morning. Kind of disappointed.

#469. Posted by: boodle at May 22, 2008 3:41 PM

→ 446. bcre8ve: South Park avatars:

Uh oh...I couldn't access the "Make Avatar" screen from my iMac, so ealgumby was kind enough to put one together for me. Now I need to remember what I did w/it...a mind is a terrible thing to lose.

→ 454. lostinVT: "Yup, most southern VT you can get":

Ayuh? South of Bennington or Brattleboro?

→ 466. Clementine: Why DID Jack shave his chest hair?

He got an endorsement deal from Dharma's Double-Edged Razors. "A close shave, both coming and going..." ; >

#470. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 22, 2008 3:42 PM

@467/tiffani can someone possibly kidnapp,torture and convince him to tell us all the answers. :)

I will...I will...I will...!!! (At least kidnap...) I know Jack has steadily become extremely unpopular, but I still love Matthew Fox...yum!!!

#471. Posted by: boodle at May 22, 2008 3:45 PM

@421 & 423/DocH : (said about Alpert and Locke) >> I'll go back and try to recruit Locke in High School. If that doesn't change the present, I'll go farther..

You make an excellent point about Alpert's time jumping into the past and also that Alpert's attempt to recruit Locke in HS could even have predated his visit to Locke earlier in Locke's life.
That kinda sums up something I've been wondering for a while - What is the chronology of Alpert's appearances? I mean from Alpert's perspective.

Back up from that question, to a more vital one.. Has an ageless Richard Alpert been keeping tabs on Locke for 52 years of his life? Or is it more likely that Alpert traveled back in time for these purposes?
I'm inclined to agree with DocH - that time travel is more likely explanation based on what we've learned so far.

This raises many new questions - for instance, What was the frame of reference in Alpert's life at the times he popped into Locke's life?

I think we were meant to assume that the reason Locke didn't recognize Alpert when the two first met on the Island was because Locke's childhood encounter with Alpert happened such a long time ago.

But I believe that the experience of Alpert's visit - showing up to tell the the young boy that he may be "very special", and then his harsh instant rejection after Locke's apparent failure with the test - would have made a lasting impression on Locke. (without delving into the details of my own early childhood experiences, I'll just say that I identify with young Locke enough to state this as near fact)

Yet there wasn't even a glimmer of recognition from Locke - even though Alpert looked practically IDENTICAL to the way he looked back then. Why? I believe that at the time they met on the Island, Alpert had not yet made these visits. Time travel makes it possible for these visits to have happened AFTER Locke came to the Island.

Now if this is true - and since we know that Locke eventually does end up on the Island - what was the purpose of Alpert's visits? A few possibilities spring to mind
1) To put things into Locke's memories or subconscious in order to have an effect on Locke's future actions on the Island.
2) Because Alpert himself questions whether Locke is indeed the right one to lead.
3) As part of a fact gathering assignment. (I'm thinking about all the lists that keep getting compiled.) Perhaps after the plane crashed, some of the Others were tasked with observing one or more of the survivors - perhaps even testing them. Whatever the criteria for being on Jacob's list really was, how much info could be learned simply by having Ethan and Goodwin spending a few days among the survivors? Or even from having Mikhail run background checks?
4)Course correction due to something that happened after the 815ers crashed that requires some manipulation of past events to make sure that everyone makes it on the Island that needed to be there. Perhaps as a result of moving the Island, or some other side effect that stems from whatever will take place at the Orchid?

#472. Posted by: vacc at May 22, 2008 3:55 PM

Does anyone remember how Mikhail came to the island? Boat, plane, submarine, balloon?

I just read his profile on Lostpedia and it's very vague about how he came to be on the island...

“At the age of 24, he replied to a newspaper advertisement titled "Would you like to save the world?" and was recruited by a "magnificent man." He eventually ended up arriving on the Island around 1993. Before he was revealed as being one of the Others, he had claimed to be a member of the DHARMA Initiative, but later confessed that this was not true….”

This explains WHY he came to the island but not HOW he got there.

So was he recruited by the Others AFTER the purge?? What was he recruited to do? What was his purpose on the island before the Others gave him the job of being in charge of the Flame? Did he ever live with the Others in the barracks?

#473. Posted by: Skipper at May 22, 2008 4:16 PM

@ Clementine - 436
Amazing.

@ bcre8ve
Did you like mine?

By the way... I'm pretty good at photoshop if you need any help.

@ Cecil Rose - 453
LOST 8:15 Yeah... I can watch that thing over and over again... I didn't think that if a new viewer watched it that they'd get it, but I showed it to my friend before the premire of season 4, and she surprisingly caught on everything. It was really weird.

I wouldn't have gotten it... I think.

Anyway... My favorite part, "Mr. Friendly throws like a girl!"

Ha... ha.

@ JoePike - 457
Very nicely put.

LMFAOLACWIS. Guess what that stands for...

CLUE: I made it up.

Give up?

ANSWER:

Wait for it...

....

.....

You're WRONG!

Laughing My Flimsy Arms Off Like A Chicken When It Snorts.

-----------

Tonight's going to be such an empty Thursday. But on the bright side... NO SCHOOL TILL WEDNESDAY!!! 5 DAY WEEKEND!!! Then the day after Wednesday, we get yearbooks, and LOST!!!

That will be a good day.

-----------------

@ Mr_Naysayer - 468
YAY. I like pandas... But if it smokes... well I guess if it smokes out Smokey/Vincent it'd be kinda cool.

But smoking is not cool. DON'T DO DRUGS!!! ...I don't know what a bong is though.

If it's wearing Cindy's scarf... it'd be even cooler!

#474. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 22, 2008 5:01 PM

@shikotee #393
Many of us have been bothered by the fiscal realities involved in obtaining controlling interest...

Could Hurley have helped Sun come up with the money. He still had all of the Lotto winning when he returned, and did not want it. (Cheech didnt smoke it all!)
Along with the other 4 (5 accounts)
Could be enough to take control of 50%of her fathers company.

#475. Posted by: bean116 at May 22, 2008 5:08 PM

What will prevent Walt from spilling the beans at some point in the future that he too was on flight 815 and shops a book to publishers entitled
"Oceanic 6 My Ass"? Perhaps the Others aren't as thorough as we are lead to believe.

#476. Posted by: Rich at May 22, 2008 5:14 PM

#436 - Clementine, my darling, my favorite bloggess!!

@bcre8ve - I'll go take a look. If I can do it at work tomorrow (if it doesn't block me) I'll get it done..:) At home I can't get a quiet moment to myself to concentrate on much of anything.

#477. Posted by: meg at May 22, 2008 5:28 PM

468/Mr_Naysayer "Has anyone seen my lost stuffed animal? It is a panda with a scarf on, smoking a bong. Let me know if anyone stumbles across it."

This story just broke. I heard it on a local radio station during their entertainment segment. Before it broke, only Matthew Fox knew about it but he has been tortured into revealing that...

Mr_Naysayer's "Panda" has left the island. Stating he can no longer live a lie, he has removed his spots - which appear to have been spray painted on - and revealed that he is actually a polar bear.

The Pandolar bear was quoted as saying, "I'm tired of sitting around here talking to dead Horaces and pretending to be something that I'm not. And don't EVEN get me started on Jacob. He's like, 'move the cabin over here. Now move it over there.' All I can say is that I'm outta here!"

There is no word on the missing bong. One theory is that it has wrapped itself in a sheet/scarf, disguising itself as a young, non-accented Australian and has also left the island claiming to be one of the Oceanic 6.

One source, choosing to remain nameless, stated that it should be easy to recognize because, just before leaving, it developed, "...a bad case of flatulence, and who isn't familiar with 'Bong with the Wind?'"

All I can say is, "Frankly Scarlet..."

#478. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 22, 2008 5:44 PM

@475/bean116 re: Hurley's money...

I think Hurley gave the money to his mom and dad. (So maybe Cheech did smoke it...) Looking at that mansion of a house they live in may indicate that they had come into some $. Also, when his dad presented him with the car, Hurley said he didn't want anything that was associated with the money, but his dad told him that he did it before he "gave them the money".

#479. Posted by: boodle at May 22, 2008 5:55 PM

473. Posted by: Skipper

"So was he recruited by the Others AFTER the purge?? What was he recruited to do? What was his purpose on the island before the Others gave him the job of being in charge of the Flame? Did he ever live with the Others in the barracks?"

Maybe he was a worker in the swan before the purge.

I think that since Patchy has a missing eye, the glass eyeball found by the tallies in the Arrow belonged to him-Mikhail.

I have been wondering who took the clip out of the swan orientation film and put it in a box in the arrow with the eyeball. Is it logical that it might be him. But why would he remove that clip?

So someone WOULD screw up and fail to push the button and make the island visible to someone searching for it.
Or use the computer to contact the outside world. Maybe he was working with the hostiles against Dharma. so they rewarded him with the Flame job. How else did a Dharma worker survive?

After the purge, I think Ben must have taken over from Alpert at some point. Maybe the hostiles needed to get rid of Ben and were willing to get outside help from another promising leader - Locke?.

OH, the Purge may have been just at the Barracks. Ben had to have his own container of gas for his dad. Maybe That's how Rousseau survived too,.

#480. Posted by: berkyo at May 22, 2008 6:44 PM

"LMFAOLACWIS. Guess what that stands for.."

I thought I had part of it.....LOL

Clementine,
the fact that I can post my lame ideas and have no one here blast me is proof of how nice you all are. And the amount of brain matter that I use to follow some of the discussion here is going to ward off Alzheimer's for years. This blog is very beneficial.

#481. Posted by: berkyo at May 22, 2008 6:54 PM

@boodle-Hurley and money

your right Mom and Dad are living huge. Seemed like a brilliant idea at the time.

seven more days......wish it was on tonight.

#482. Posted by: bean116 at May 22, 2008 7:09 PM

@boodle....

btw, yea, I just noticed the lost city as the islands reflection last week. Does anyone know if that is new or am I just now seeing it?

@ clementine 436
WOW. I am ....lost for words ;)

#483. Posted by: bean116 at May 22, 2008 7:23 PM

→ 478. Posted by: bcre8ve
- - - -
New Hydra Experiment data indicates that by series end they will have the
"Medusa Pandolar Bear". A large, poisonous, eight legged, black and white bear, that swims' well, sells well every eight years' in children's toy shops, and has an affinity for pretentious, attractive, young diamond thieves.

#484. Posted by: DocH at May 22, 2008 8:43 PM

@vacc 461 re: the faux Kate voice in the shower being technically enhanced (masked).
That's what I figured, too, but it's a dirty trick, I tells ya, a dirty trick.

And don't get me started on the "what is canon" debate. Since I can't come up with anything funny about it -- Canonball Run reference, would a cannon found on the Black Rock in a mobisode be considered canon, etc, etc. -- I'll have to settle for just being miffed about the whole thing. Not to be confused with mizzed.

@tiffani 467
I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be just as happy to simply torture Mr. Fox. But then he might start breathing heavy and youknowwho who loves youknowwhom would have a cow.

@Clementine, you're the best.
@Mac, we love you too.
@vacc, not too shabby either!

@472
I agree with your thoughts about Alpert traveling back to meet Locke to manipulate past events. I found it interesting that Alpert was there at John's birth. How would he know that John was special before he was even born? Traveling back in time is the only thing that makes sense to me.

#485. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 22, 2008 9:26 PM

→ 436. Clementine: one of the best written blog entries I have ever read- I agree that it deserves a permanent place and should not be left behind when everyone moves on to the next episode.

"Mizzed (we’re not quite sure what that is, but we’re enjoying it, nonetheless)"

A variation on my name, where I went to college, and the fact that I'm spending way too much time pondering the missing pieces in this puzzle. Since I adopted it, though, I found the following definition in the Urban Dictionary: Missed opporunity due to a number of reasons, such as your planning being negligent, not on top of your game, or simply being lazy and did not show up on time. Usually indicates that the 'missed opportunity' slid into the past and does not warrant looking back.
"Ned we totally mizzed the dog show, how about we go to dinner early?"

I should be grateful I did not accidently pick Mizzel, defined as: Any sort of pariah. A mizzel is a person that when direct contact is made with him/her he/she will become fidgety and twitch about. It is not uncommon for a mizzel to smell, hoard things, and have old clothes. A misunderstood character at best. Often the first person to be blamed when domestic discrepencies arise.

"Oh my God! Rose! Look at that mizzel! Why is he sweating so much?"

On the other hand, if I had really been on my game, I would have selected Mizzled, defined as: Beyond good. Beyond off the hook. To a degree of festiveness that exceeds the capacity of most human comprehension.
"SNAP!!! THATS STRAIGHT TRIPPIN! Why if that was any better it would be mizzled!!!! or "Alpacas, the most unmizzled animals in the world, pray upon small children while they are asleep and eat their limbs."

No, I don't understand that last one either.

#486. Posted by: Mizzed at May 22, 2008 9:29 PM

→ 485. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
I found it interesting that Alpert was there at John's birth. How would he know that John was special before he was even born? Traveling back in time is the only thing that makes sense to me.
- - - -
That is the flipside. Without time-travel. Alpert really is immortal-ish. Centuries old (BL - You do remember birthdays', don't you Richard?). Richard may have been around for awhile, coordinates off-island resources & conglomerates, establishes "labs" & "tech" corps to develop "worthy" island inhabitants, to combat island fertility issues (rapid aging, in-breeding, small gene pool).

Being there for Locke's birth could also simply be a master chef checking to see what just came out of the oven. A pinch of self-doubt, 2 ozs of knife fetish, 2 viable kidneys, 2 paraplegic shanks... Voila! John Locke.

#487. Posted by: DocH at May 22, 2008 11:30 PM

Don't recall if this has been discussed but if Alpert has been going back in time to visit Locke, do you think it was the island that didn't allow John to die when pushed out that window?

#488. Posted by: pebspostal at May 23, 2008 8:30 AM

All of this talk about Richard "Maybelline" Alpert (and his Tijuana Brass - Nice one) and his seeming immortality and child-limb-eating alpacas ("Tina, you fat lard, come get some DINNER! ") got me to thinkin'...

What if RA isn't immortal but a series of clones? Granted the immortal (a la Highlander) thing seems the more likely but have we completely discounted cloning?

I mean if there's potentially alien technology involved, who's to say there isn't a Star Trek-type energizer (aka Magic Box) that enables one to travel through time and space?

Maybe all of these special children are the result of alien abduction and erotic probing. And Jack's breathing problems are due to his having gills and not lungs. Explains the four-toed statue too. And Smoky is Gort. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Golly, if they can make Ben Linus studlier than Indy, anything's possible...

#489. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 23, 2008 8:50 AM

O===============

@465 DocH expounded: (on the canonicity of the “enhancements” in enhanced episodes)

>I read it from their own list. Item #4 under "NON-CANON", specifically...

>"Information given on Enhanced episodes. These are provided by a third-party company, and not created by the production team." ...

But...

A. In that self-same paragraph, they say they’re re-thinking the canonicity of enhancements:

“(Canonicity is currently under discussion following comments from Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse that the enhanced episodes can be considered like "CliffsNotes".)”

B. The Lostpedia definition of “canonicity” is itself non-canon, i.e. is determined by the Lostpedia editors explicitly and *only* for the purposes of the website itself, and not given from the producers of “Lost”.

So, and since everything I’ve seen from that marketing company, Met|Hodder, seems accurate and I’m pretty sure they have access to sources we don’t, I’m taking the enhancements as at least semi-official.

YMMV

O===============

@466 Clementine pondered”

>No Lost tonight, but I remain unspoiled and eagerly anticipating the answer to my most burning question: Why DID Jack shave his chest hair? ;)

Obviously after Juliet did it, Jack found he liked it and it became a fetish for him. And since it originated from Juliet, it became a major source of premarital friction between Kate and Jack, leading to their breakup.

O===============

@467 tiffani peposed:

>...can someone possibly kidnapp,torture and convince him (Matthew Fox) to tell us all the answers. :)

Hey, I don’t even want to be spoiled for the next episode, much less the series end two years from now.

O===============

@473 Skipper quizzed (concerning Mikhail):

>“At the age of 24, he replied to a newspaper advertisement titled "Would you like to save the world?" and was recruited by a "magnificent man." He eventually ended up arriving on the Island around 1993. Before he was revealed as being one of the Others, he had claimed to be a member of the DHARMA Initiative, but later confessed that this was not true….”

>This explains WHY he came to the island but not HOW he got there.

>So was he recruited by the Others AFTER the purge?? What was he recruited to do? What was his purpose on the island before the Others gave him the job of being in charge of the Flame? Did he ever live with the Others in the barracks?

If we accept that the purge occurred 12 years before the present island time, and that he looks older than 36, we pretty much have to believe that Mikhail was either recruited by Dharma and went over to the others, arriving by submarine, or that he was recruited by pre-purge Others, arriving by some Other means. I favor the former.

O===============

@483 bean116 noticed:

>btw, yea, I just noticed the lost city as the island's reflection last week. Does anyone know if that is new or am I just now seeing it?

I believe it’s been there for all season four, calling attention subtly to the shift in the emphasis of the narrative to as much off the island as on.

O===============

#490. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 23, 2008 10:00 AM

The whole thing with Richard going back in time to be present at John's birth...

The only thing that's still bothering me about that is that Emily's mom seemed to recognize him. Maybe she's connected with the island too?

@ Clementine - 466
Jack's chest looked more "waxed" than shaved.

Why you ask? I'll tell you -- Because he thought that would make him stop breathing... make me happy that I won't have to hear him breathe weird anymore!

@ Scooby-Dude - 485
"I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be just as happy to simply torture Mr. Fox. But then he might start breathing heavy and youknowwho who loves youknowwhom would have a cow."

Exactly! I'd probably take one of my torture instruments and kill him with it. Screw the answers, I don't like spoilers anyway. =D (evil smiley)

#491. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 23, 2008 11:17 AM

@shikotee #393 the fiscal realities of obtaining controlling interest...

If anyone helped Sun finance this, my money's on Ben. The Five banks that were used will be :
1)Bank of Tunisia
2)Island Savings and Loan
3)First Bank of Portland
4)Black Rock Capital
5)Arctic National Savings

I believe we'll see Ben turn up in Sun's life shortly before she buys into her dad's company. Ben will use the anger behind Jin's fate (death or still on Island) to manipulate her as he did with Sayid. Perhaps the whole reason behind Miles insistence that Ben could get his hands on a large amount of money so quickly is to add credibility to his being able to help Sun finance the takeover.
Once Sun is in position to make the decisions for Paik, we will learn what Ben's real interest is in the company - most likely it helps Ben gain a strategic advantage over Charles Widmore.

#492. Posted by: vacc at May 23, 2008 11:32 AM

I was needing a Lost fix, so I just finished watching season 1 episode 3. Kate is about to tell Jack why the marshal had her in custody and Jack said

Wait for it....

It doesn't matter. WE ALL DIED WHEN THE PLANE CRASHED.

Maybe somebody has mentioned this already, but I thought I would mention it anyway.

#493. Posted by: xanadude at May 23, 2008 11:43 AM

the fact that I can post my lame ideas and have no one here blast me is proof of how nice you all are.
→ 481. Posted by: berkyo

Exactly! So, to prove that point, here's MY latest thought about RA's first visit to John Locke:

While RA did harshly reject young John (as posted by Vacc in -472), I did not think the boy looked particularly devastated. He seemed more pensive.

When John-Boy chose the knife, I'm now thinking he did it on purpose, knowing it was the "wrong" choice. Either (a) he simply did not want to go to RA's school for the gifted or (b) he wanted to throw RA a curve, and make RA think he (John-Boy) is NOT the ONE.

Of course, the implication is that young John would have known that he is "special" in order to manipulate that scene. So I may be way off.

Locke’s expression rarely changes throughout the show. I’ve always wondered: is he just “thinking” or does he "know" something? Some of you have thought he is weak; I always felt John had a plan.

→ 486. Posted by: Mizzed
If an alpaca is the next animal to show up on LOST, say, chewing on Aaron's legs while he sleeps, Mizzed will officially become Mizzled. (Hey, I called the panda. It could happen!)

#494. Posted by: lovelost at May 23, 2008 1:18 PM

O===============

@493 xanadude revealed:

>I was needing a Lost fix, so I just finished watching season 1 episode 3. Kate is about to tell Jack why the marshal had her in custody and Jack said
...
>It doesn't matter. WE ALL DIED WHEN THE PLANE CRASHED.

>Maybe somebody has mentioned this already, but I thought I would mention it anyway.

The transcript from Lostpedia:

“KATE: I want to tell you what I did - why he was after me.

JACK: I don't want to know. It doesn't matter, Kate, who we were - what we did before this, before the crash. It doesn't really -- 3 days ago we all died. We should all be able to start over.”

I think he was speaking metaphorically.

O===============

#495. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 23, 2008 1:33 PM

@bcre8ve - I can't get it done from work. And, yes I admit, I think it may be a little beyond me. Can I describe myself and have you do one??? Pahleeese??

I look a lot like Angelina Jolie. I like to wear a scarf on most occasions. I'm not too dressy, pretty casual. Enough?? Oh, and I have a nose like Pinochio (and I can't spell)

#496. Posted by: meg at May 23, 2008 1:41 PM

So we know that when we first saw Jack in the Pilot he was on his back, with Ben's special stick nearby. And we saw Ben arrive in Tunisia in the same position with the stick as well.

Has anyone gone back to see if Locke had the magic stick near him when we first saw him on the beach? Wasn't he also flat on his back wiggling his legs a bit.....?

Ok, it’s Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend… can you say “not motivated to work?” I need a Lost fix… c’mon someone write something inspiring before I go postal on these poor unsuspecting saps. I need to take a deep breath...like Jack, he's got it down pat. 8~D

#497. Posted by: Skipper at May 23, 2008 1:48 PM

@Cecil Rose Sorry that you went thru all the trouble of finding the transcript but I wasn't suggesting that Jack really thinks they are all dead, just thought it was interesteing in light of Hurley saying they all died on the island (can't remeber Hurley's exact words).

#498. Posted by: xanadude at May 23, 2008 2:28 PM

→ 490.
So, and since everything I’ve seen from that marketing company, Met|Hodder, seems accurate and I’m pretty sure they have access to sources we don’t, I’m taking the enhancements as at least semi-official.
- - - -
LOST creative staff says their product is theirs = canon.
LOST creative staff says a product contains at least some of their creative input = semi-canon.
No input from LOST creative staff = non-canon.

Enhancements contain no input from LOST creative staff, hence non-canon. Cliffs Notes contain no creative input from authors.

Point in case. A recently aired "Enhanced" episode referred to the freighter as being 90 miles off-shore. Originally aired episodes only referred to the freighter as being at 80 miles, and later, 40 miles away from the island. IF the 90 miles is correct (a product of LOST creative staff) then they chose to introduce that info in an enhanced episode AND to contradict previously tendered data...
(Personally I hope the 90 is just a typo.)

#499. Posted by: DocH at May 23, 2008 2:36 PM

500!?!

A Zodiac can go 90 miles on a tank of gas? Gotta get me one of them...

#500. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 23, 2008 2:40 PM

Here's how I spent my last hour of "work" before the holiday weekend. I wanted to be 500th, but I got a little carried away with my story :)

If you could write the finale episode and have it come to life next week, what would you WANT to see happen? Not what makes logical sense or what questions you want answered, but what scenes or storylines (big or small) would make you HAPPY?

Here’s what I want to see happen on the island:

Two minutes into the show, Jack passes out from blood loss and lies mute in the back of the helicopter for the whole finale.

Lapidus and Sawyer launch a Hugo rescue mission and swoop down on the Orchid, strafing Keamy’s goons with automatic weapons fire. Hugo comes barreling out of the jungle like a linebacker, blitzing bad guys left and right, and makes a leap for the hovering chopper. Realizing the weight is too much, Sawyer dumps Jack’s unconscious body overboard (oh, darn, that won’t work, but it was a nice thought.)

The helicopter then detours back down the other side of the mountain to the Temple, to find Alpert and the Others cooking a naked Kate and Sayid in a giant cauldron, while singing “Pleasant Valley Sunday.” Sawyer proactively acquired Nikki’s stash of eyeliner, and makes a trade for the return of his friends. You might think that the helicopter could not take off at this point, but Kate weighs practically nothing now that the Others have shaved her bald, and Sayid is able to enter a state of meditation so deep he actually levitates.

Back at the Orchid, Locke interrupts Keamy’s beat-down of Ben to return Ben’s telescoping baton, stating that his purse just isn’t big enough, and could you please carry your own stuff for once. Locke then takes the elevator to the basement, and finds another moonpool with his submarine tied to the dock. Before taking a voyage to the bottom of the ocean, he breaks the glass over the emergency station mounted on the wall, and reads the instructions above a big purple button: “To initiate island relocation, press here.” Locke whips out a few spare sticks of dynamite he’s been storing in his crotch, and sets a long fuse. He simultaneously presses the purple button and lights the fuse while running to the submarine.

Meanwhile, Ben is making Keamy pulp with his baton. As he notices the sky beginning to turn purple, Ben runs to what looks like a potting shed, dives in and yells, “Shazam!” Just as the Orchid explodes, Ben transports himself to the Antartic research station. Ben tells Henrik (in Portuguese) to call him a cab. Henrik, taking exception to his accent, shoots Ben, just as Ben yells “Shazam!” and transports himself to the Sahara.

Lapidus is piloting the seriously overloaded helicopter as it drunkenly staggers to the deck of the freighter. Upon exiting, Sawyer shoots Michael on sight. Following the discovery of the explosives, Dan has already ferried the redshirts back to the beach, conceding that he was never meant to be a hero, anyway. Jin and Des explain the situation, and Sawyer volunteers to give up his seat to Sun and Aaron. Unfortunately, the thing just can’t get airborne. After some quick consultation, it’s determined that Aaron’s head weighs about 180 pounds, and one more non-Hurley sized man must exit. As Sayid can levitate and pilot a helicopter at the same time, the group decides that Lapidus is the odd man out. Sawyer and Jin drag him kicking and screaming out the window.

As the helicopter bearing the Oceanic Six flies off toward the horizon, a speed boat approaches with Penny at the helm. She has room for only three men, and they must be hot. As Penny zooms off with Des, Jin, and Sawyer to her own private resort (conveniently located on a nearby invisible island), Lapidus weeps brokenly on the deck of the freighter just prior to the final massive explosion.

Happy Three Day Weekend, Everybody!

#501. Posted by: Clementine at May 23, 2008 3:40 PM

@ Clem 501

No that's what I'm talkin' about! That's just what I needed... you just saved the lives of my coworkers.

That wa awesome!

#502. Posted by: Skipper at May 23, 2008 3:51 PM

O===============

@499 DocH reiterated:

>Enhancements contain no input from LOST creative staff, hence non-canon. Cliffs Notes contain no creative input from authors.

Nevertheless I’ve always found Cliff’s Notes quite accurate. As to the mileage estimate, the show itself could never settle on a figure, so I’ll forgive them that. And what evidence do you have for statement 1, above? Lostpedia only says this about the first enhanced episode, and only because D/C couldn’t talk during the WGA strike.

O===============

#503. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 23, 2008 4:05 PM

→ 501. Clementine: Your version of the finale:

Ha! Good stuff...if you're not a writer in non-LOST life, you should think about it!

#504. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 23, 2008 4:40 PM

@@@@@@@@@


Meg - I think I've built up enough courage finally, so here goes nothin'...

will you go out with me!?


@@@@@@@@

#505. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 23, 2008 4:57 PM

→ 503. ... Cecil Rose ... I’ve always found Cliff’s Notes quite accurate. As to the mileage estimate, the show itself could never settle on a figure, so I’ll forgive them that. And what evidence do you have for statement 1, above? Lostpedia only says this about the first enhanced episode, and only because D/C couldn’t talk during the WGA strike.
- - - -
Cliffs Notes are very accurate. So is Lostpedia. It is just that you can't claim them as fact until the Creators/Authors say "That is fact". The writers strike started the conversation about "Enhanced Truth" the conversation ended only 5 weeks ago on canon policy about 'Enhancements', well after many enhanced episodes.

At the top of the canon page there is a link to talk (canon:talk) that has the thread associated with the topic. At the bottom of the canon:talk page, last topic on the page, they have "Enhanced Revisted" where all of the LP contributors and Administrators debate the enhanced issue. Good read, worth the read. Says oodles about the topic. Enhanced has gone well beyond the initial 'writers strike' statement. I'd read all of this before I made my previous comment.

#506. Posted by: DocH at May 23, 2008 5:48 PM

@Clementine re: post 501 and others

Your key strokes assemble in the most entertaining and enjoyable manner. I'm glad you are a part of this blog.

#507. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 23, 2008 5:52 PM

499/DocH "LOST creative staff says their product is theirs = canon.
LOST creative staff says a product contains at least some of their creative input = semi-canon.
No input from LOST creative staff = non-canon."

I believe Lord Tennyson foreshadowed your post all those years ago..."Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them..."

#508. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 23, 2008 5:55 PM

496/meg "@bcre8ve - I can't get it done from work. And, yes I admit, I think it may be a little beyond me. Can I describe myself and have you do one??? Pahleeese??"

Sure. I just thought that after guessing everyone from their bloggins last year it would be better to let everyone make their own. But I'd be happy to do it for you.

#509. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 23, 2008 5:58 PM

re: Alpert. We know that there are those on the show that time travel - Ben, Desmund, etc. What if RA has mastered the art of time travel? He has stepped out of time and is no longer tied to a specific time or place.

#510. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 23, 2008 5:59 PM

480/berkyo "I think that since Patchy has a missing eye, the glass eyeball found by the tallies in the Arrow belonged to him-Mikhail."

That was my thought as well until they showed Patchy in his patchless state thus revealing that there is effectively no eye socket in which to insert said glass eye. I wonder if TPTB did that to purposely raise interest in to whom the rightful owner of the glass eye is, or if it was just coincidental?

#511. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 23, 2008 6:00 PM

RE: How Sun was able to get control over Papa's company.

I am sure there are several possibilities. One of which could be that Sun already owned some stock before trying to buy a majority. Paik might have given Sun some when she was younger.

I think that this might be one of those, "just suspend disbelief already - it's the real story that you need to focus on" types of deals for the viewers. But we'll see. Whatever the case. I'm sure the ends will prove more important than the means.

#512. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 23, 2008 6:04 PM

472/vacc "what was the purpose of Alpert's visits? ... Alpert himself questions whether Locke is indeed the right one to lead.

Perhaps RA's visit to test young Locke occurred right after Locke could not kill his dad with the knife on the island. Young Locke indicating that the knife was his might have encouraged RA that there was still hope for Locke being the "one." It may have eventually led to the hillside meeting and folder swap with Locke which later led to Locke's dad's death by Sawyer.

#513. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 23, 2008 6:09 PM

474/ilovebenjaminlinusxx "@ bcre8ve Did you like mine?" (re: avatars)

Which one? You sent three. But yes, I like them all. I'm especially fond of the one with the halo.

#514. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 23, 2008 6:13 PM

→ 488. Posted by: pebspostal:

Don't recall if this has been discussed but if Alpert has been going back in time to visit Locke, do you think it was the island that didn't allow John to die when pushed out that window?
********************
Perhaps not the island itself, unless you buy into the theory that the island itself is somehow sentient.

(foolish definitive statement coming up): while it wasn't always obvious in past seasons, I think it's now clear that there is an inevitable chain of events that require the presence of certain individuals, and that this chain cannot be broken or fundamentally changed.

Michael's gun not firing was an obvious example, but it's consistent with many other events we've seen: Claire being unable to find a working pen at the adoption agency, a mysterious horse allowing Kate to escape, Locke surviving two murder attempts, future Jack unable to jump off a bridge and kill himself, etc., etc.

The Oceanic 815 passengers survived a horrific crash because they had to survive for events to proceed. (all characters not necessary for future events, please place youself by the turbines).

The question is whether the Lost characters have any real free will at all, or if they are predestined like Oedipus to their own particular fate. Oedipus tried to run away from killing his father and marrying his mother, but by doing so ran into a full-on load of "course correction" that caused those very events to occur. Jack and Michael have both tried to run away from their place in these events, with disastrous results.
*****************
→ 423. Posted by: DocH

Has an ageless Richard Alpert been keeping tabs on Locke for 52 years of his life? Or is it more likely that Alpert traveled back in time for these purposes?

→ 343. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

The Novikov Principle does not allow a time traveler to change the past in any way, but it does allow them to affect past events in a way that produces no inconsistencies—

→ 337. Posted by: ealgumby

Things can happen on the "new" branch that might otherwise seem fantastic, in order to "course correct" back to the "true" conjunction of timelines ... the universe has "no choice" but to allow these otherwise unrealistic events to occur, or the timelines will not be able to conjoin at the appropriate time, and reestablish the "course corrected" worldline.
*****************
Three posts/thoughts that can be all combined into the same basic theory of predestined events that can be observed, aided (but not altered) by a potential time-traveler like Alpert or a 3rd party like Abaddon (John, how about a walk about?).

Viewed this way, the young Locke could never have gone to the island as a boy, regardless of which objects he selected, because it would have been too much of a deviation from the existing timeline of events (i.e. Locke as an "other" rather than as a survivor).

The one USA Today theory that D&C (there you go, ealgumby) selected as being closest to some Lost "truths" included the following description of Mrs. Hawking:

"Her visions include a complicated pattern of people that are required to be on the island in order for a set series of events to occur for Dharma to return to the island. With the help of others, including Christian Shephard, Richard Malkin, Nadia and Libby, the group ensures that specific people are on the plane in order for the series of events to occur."

While I don't think we know about that Dharma part yet, much of that theory is consistent with the posts of DocH/ealgumby/scooby-dude.

Just like physicists search for a "Theory of Everything" or a Unified Field Theory, we're searching for our own Unified Theory. Just since the last episode, there has been discussion of blackhole in a box/time travel and course corrections/predestined fate/wormhole portals/parallel universes and the multiverse- all of which could potentially fit together without contradiction. Potentially...

#515. Posted by: Mizzed at May 23, 2008 6:13 PM

→ 508. Posted by: bcre8ve
... Tennyson foreshadowed your post all those years ago..."Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them..."
- - - -
Great quote!

Now think Reservoir Dogs
and/or
Steve Miller Band

vacc's to the left of me,
Cecil's to the right,
Here I am,
Stuck in the middle with you...

#516. Posted by: DocH at May 23, 2008 6:22 PM

O===============

@508 bcre8ve quoted:

>..."Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them..."

Wasn’t that Alfred, Lord Tennis Ball? I have it on canonical authority of MPFS.

O===============

@511 bcre8ve exposited:

>>480/berkyo "I think that since Patchy has a missing eye, the glass eyeball found by the tallies in the Arrow belonged to him-Mikhail."

>That was my thought as well until they showed Patchy in his patchless state thus revealing that there is effectively no eye socket in which to insert said glass eye. I wonder if TPTB did that to purposely raise interest in to whom the rightful owner of the glass eye is, or if it was just coincidental?

Maybe he *used* to have a glass eyeball, but discarded it as the socket filled in. (Island doing its best to heal the unhealable?)

O===============

#517. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 23, 2008 6:49 PM

Can't Spell Even When Acronyming:

Make that MPFC above.

#518. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 23, 2008 7:00 PM

@Cecil Rose/517
"Maybe he *used* to have a glass eyeball, but discarded it as the socket filled in."

Or maybe there are multiple Mikhails, ala (possibly?) duplicate Docs ... maybe one Mikhail has an eye socket, and maybe one got it stitched up and healed over? Could also explain his "multiple" deaths ...

Not sure how serious I am about this ... then again not sure I'm not, like everything else on this show ... I DO know I AM confused ...

#519. Posted by: ealgumby at May 23, 2008 7:00 PM

@Cecil Rose/517
@ealgumby/518

And yet again, I must consult the wisdom of "Ren & Stimpy" ... from "Black Hole" ...

>>>
Ren: (Grabs Stimpy) We're alive! Alive I tell you, alive! Flesh and blood, not wax! Do you realize, we're the first dog and cat to pass through a black hole and live to tell the tale, and now here we are in this wonderous new universe, completely unaffected by the journey!
Ren: We'd better scout around and do some exploring.
Stimpy: Yes sir! We'll split up! (Stimpy starts to walk in two directions at once and pulls apart into two copies of himself).
>>>

It ALWAYS comes back to Ren & Stimpy, doesn't it?

And from shortly thereafter in the epi ...

>>>
Ren: Cadet Stimpy and myself find ourselves in a strange new universe, a world where the very physical laws of nature do not apply.

...

Ren sees something in the distance.
Ren: Hey, Cadet Stimpy, let's climb that mountain, so we can learn the lay of the land.

...

Stimpy: Hey, cap'n, this space time doohickey says if we don't get to the trans-di-mensional gateway by three o' clock... we'll be trapped here forever!
Ren (from under a pile of socks): Thank you, Herr President. It's my pleasur- three o' clock??? That's five minutes! How far away is the nearest gateway?

...

Stimpy: Wait I have an idea! I can set this space time doohickey to our molecular wavelengths, switch it into reverse, and turn it up to full blast... and we'll simply implode!
Ren: Implode.... what's that?
Stimpy: Oh, sorry, cap'n, you're a layman, aren't you? I'll try to explain it in technical terms...
>>>

And now we know how the 305 degree course was selected (three o' clock plus five minutes) ...

Everything I need to know I learned from Ren & Stimpy ...

#520. Posted by: ealgumby at May 23, 2008 7:14 PM

@ealgumby/520

I know, I'm commenting to my own post, but just HAD to preclude the possible pending comment that "three o' clock plus five minutes" equals 90.083 degrees ...

and if you were even remotely pondering that, then you're just as much a tech-geek as me! :)

#521. Posted by: ealgumby at May 23, 2008 7:27 PM

@ealgumby/520

... or 92.5 degrees, depending upon how you interpret it ... okay, I'll shut up ...

#522. Posted by: ealgumby at May 23, 2008 7:31 PM

→ 501. Posted by: Clementine
- - - -
I like the fan-fiction narrative. You've been working on that one all week. I can tell.

I would have gone with "sha-mizzled" instead of Shazam.

&

I'd have the dead shirts in the zodiac eaten by the Dharma whale... who Alpert affectionately calls, "Moby Richard".

(you need to copyright your stuff here.)

#523. Posted by: DocH at May 23, 2008 7:47 PM

In this season's finale, I demand to find out:

* How the 06 got off the Island, why they had to lie, and why this particular story

* How the space/time teleporting thing in the Orchid station works (well, I don't expect scientific explanations, but I want to see it happen)

* Something new about what was going on and who were living on the Island in pre-Dharma times. Or at least some revelation about Jacob's identity (we deserve that after 4 seasons!)

* A teaser about the reason for Alpert's monitoring of Locke.

* Some more brilliant wtf?-moments

I'm probably expecting way too much. But next week's double bill could and should top everything we've seen so far, in the jaw dropping department.

#524. Posted by: Robislost at May 23, 2008 7:59 PM

THE NUMBERS

Okay, no joke, or even half, uncertain kind of joke here ...

I think I know what the numbers are ...

really ...

They represent I Ching hexagrams, as seen on all of the Dharma station logos ... got to thinking about this in response to the "wrong Orchid Station symbol on Ben's Tunisian jacket" thing, but didn't occur to me until about an hour ago ...

and if someone out there has already suggested this, I apologize for the redundancy, but never remember seeing that here (I don't discount that it may have been presented elsewhere, but really don't go hunting around for this kind of thing ... keep my Lost thought/dwelling here) ...

Quick summary -

Each of the six numbers can be represented as six-"digit"-binary sequences, which define the I Ching symbols (wiki "I Ching" for more info), and their meanings:

4 = 000100
8 = 001000
15 = 001111
16 = 010000
23 = 010111
42 = 101010

These can be divided into I Ching "trigrams" (as seen in the Dharma station logos) by by splitting them into 3-bit pairs:

4 = 000 100 = kūn zhèn
8 = 001 000 = gèn kūn
15 = 001 111 = gèn qián
16 = 010 000 = kǎn kūn
23 = 010 111 = kǎn qián
42 = 101 010 = lí kǎn

Now the question arises ... are these values to be interpretted as I Ching hexagrams in top/bottom (from left to right) form, or bottom/top form?

I will interpret both ways (based upon the wiki info), and let you decide (or decide to ignore this completely) ...

In top/bottom form, they translate as:

4 = Recovery (return),
8 = Stripping (splitting apart),
15 = Launching Charged Assault (great taming),
16 = Union (holding together),
23 = Waiting,
42 = Incompletion

In bottom/top form, they translate as:

4 = Start of Something New (enthusiasm),
8 = Being reserved (modesty),
15 = Withdrawal (retreat),
16 = Bringing Together ("the Army"),
23 = Conflict,
42 = Completion

I think either way works in some sense within the framework of the show, and maybe the dichotomy of "solutions" actually works into the plot (where my mind is headed).

Regarding "The Valenzetti Equation" ... honestly, it is EASY to make "the numbers" fit any number of equations (basic 5th order polynomial for one, easily produced with Excel using the "add trendline/polynomial/order=5" option if you create a simple chart with the numbers ... just an example, there are LITERALLY an infitinite number of equations that can produce the same set of numbers in sequence). I think the numbers have meaning as I Ching hexagrams, and the Valenzetti Equation was created after the fact, just to reproduce them (i.e., it means nothing), and send viewers off on the "wrong" track trying to figure them out ... IMO.

#525. Posted by: ealgumby at May 23, 2008 9:19 PM

@512 bcre8ve-
Complete agreement with the whole Sun takeover "controversy". As a criminal lawyer, I hated the way they dealt with Kate's trial (What about all the federal crimes? Even though she stole a toy airplane it's still a bank robbery that she planned! And shot a guy! Assaulted federal officers several times? Really think all this would be excused if she arguably saved a federal officer's life? Uh, no) but perfectly willing to ignore this for the bigger picture. People need to forget that the stars don't line up perfectly and just look for the constellation.

#526. Posted by: Markymark at May 23, 2008 9:28 PM

ealgumby...

lost has given us alot of WTF moments...

mac has given us at least (a few others could be noted here) one more...

man, WTF?...you simply amaze me...


#527. Posted by: tom at May 23, 2008 9:34 PM

Mizzed
"Her visions include a complicated pattern of people that are required to be on the island in order for a set series of events to occur for Dharma to return to the island. With the help of others, including Christian Shephard, Richard Malkin, Nadia and Libby, the group ensures that specific people are on the plane in order for the series of events to occur."

Here's a supposition for you to tear apart. I don't mind. My children aren't caught up with the episodes and my husband can't follow what I am thinking. I thought of it when the stick showed up and everyone -including me- was saying how meaning full the past seasons seem to be.

If you accept that the stick in the pilot epi is Ben's - and that it is needed to time jump - Then Jack has jumped in time. Either Jack took it or someone gave it to him, or someone dropped it.

And here is the crazy idea.

What if we the events we have been seeing, the whole series of events that occur on the island - (not off island) we are seeing for the second time?

Everything we have seen is a flashback.

The plane was NOT supposed to crash on the island. It was supposed to crash someplace else. (Do I know this?)

And this caused a problem that the universe needs to correct.

I will ignore how they got the lost crew to be on the plane because I don't know how - Mrs. Haskins, Libby? but they are there and they are making mistakes in time.

And maybe they were picked because they DO have paths that coincidentally cross and recross. Maybe this makes manipulating time safer. To use the fewest people possible. And on an island you have a set number to deal with.The people that they removed from the beach Cindy and friends - either had no part to play in the correction or would make matters worse.

So, using the wormhole/black hole in a box,certain losties will be "taught" (in the next season) to time jump safely using their consciousness to jump to their previous bodies on the island and "Fix certain things". (That's why Ben had Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sawyer taken from the beach - they are immune to the time sickness that Desmond had) and will be the time travelers. Not sure about Sun and Jin and Sayid.

Th people form the plane are not doing things twice. They don't know that they have been there before. They are only jumping at certain times to correct certain actions. Certain decisions they had made. Maybe just a few seconds at a time. Maybe just enough to "Give them an idea"

Maybe this is why everyone on LOST says things that seem prophetic? or relevant or have a double meaning. Locke saying at many times - "This is not supposed to happen." Jin says "I am fixing a mistake" when replanting Sun's garden.I have to go back and see how often people say things like this.

OR maybe it goes back to events before they board the plane.

The flash forwards would be the real future before the course correction. They haven't finished fixing things and that's why Hurley feels "wrong". Maybe Ben's scheme's put them in the future they are living in and when they finish fixing things, they will feel "right".

Does this make any sense?

Why would Ben's stick (if it is) be there in the very first episode?

#528. Posted by: berkyo at May 23, 2008 9:53 PM

@ Alais - Southern VT - Brattleboro :-)

@ ealgumby - I have made a concerted effort to read each and every word of your posts, even after the nosebleed starts, but - 525, wow

#529. Posted by: lostinVT at May 23, 2008 9:59 PM

yeah - nice - I am going with

4 = Start of Something New (enthusiasm),
8 = Being reserved (modesty),
15 = Withdrawal (retreat),
16 = Bringing Together ("the Army"),
23 = Conflict,
42 = Completion

these seem to align well with the 'Theme' of eash season, roughly.

careful though... Bad Robot may make you 'disappear'.

#530. Posted by: DocH at May 23, 2008 10:08 PM

@ealgumby/525

Been thinking about what I just posted (and thanks tom/527!) ... and it actually makes sense if the top/bottom-bottom/top interpretations are taken sequentially. To wit ...

The first sequence: Return, splitting apart, launching charged assault, holding together, waiting, incompletion ... this corresponds to Dharma "returning" to the island, and hence being "split apart" by the hostiles/others, leading to "charged assault" (purge), but forcing them to "wait," in a state of "incompletion" until 815 arrives ...

The second sequence: The start of something new (815 crash), being reserved (modesty, in the form of Alex dying, etc.), retreat (from Keamy et al), bringing together (the Other army plus Losties), conflict (freighters being defeated), and completion (when the O6 return to set things right).

The Numbers actually make sense!

#531. Posted by: ealgumby at May 23, 2008 10:10 PM

@DocH/530

Damn, I think I might even like your interpretation better ...

As for Bad Robot, the HELL with

#532. Posted by: ealgumby at May 23, 2008 10:18 PM

@@@@@@@@

QUICK! SOMEONE GET EALGUMBY HIS MEDICATION - HE'S FREAKIN' OUT!


@@@@@@@@

#533. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 23, 2008 11:41 PM

→ 532. Posted by: ealgumby
- - - -
Bad Robot called. They asked me to pass this on.

"... these are not the 'I Ching Trigrams' you are looking for..."

que?

#534. Posted by: DocH at May 24, 2008 12:02 AM

Damn, I wasn't going to look again tonight, but I gave into temptation and find a theory from berkyo that we are being deliberatly misled re: the timelines and chronology of events, followed by ealgumby's translation of the infamous numbers using the I Ching.

If the Lost creative team doesn't surf this site, they should.

Okay, just to add some fuel to ealgumby's fire on the I Ching (and I apologize if any of this is hash, let alone rehash, but I'm new around these parts): every Dharma Initiative logo so far shown is surrounded by 8 trigrams known as the Bagua (chinese for 8 trigrams), and is a fundamental pattern that is used for feng shui, navigation, etc.

(Quick digression: since feng shui experts overlay a Bagua over a floor plan as part of their analysis, has anyone overlayed a Bagua over the map of the island, such as the one in Ben's possession or the one on the blast doors?)

The Bagua used in Lost on the Dharma signs is the later interpration, or King Wen sequence.

(digression #2: The same pattern found on the Dharma logo was used for the first South Korean flag...hmmm..who do we know from South Korea?)

The King Wen sequence interprets the first trigram as heaven, the second as earth, and the other six as their children. All of this can be dug up on Wiki and has probably already been mentioned at one time or another.

A philosopher and botanist, Terrence McKenna, believed that the numerical patterns in the King Wen sequence of the I Ching were artificially arranged to create specific mathematic relationships. When properly graphed, the trigrams displayed a time wave that could be used to essentially predict the end of the "new" (he actually used the term "novelty") that would result in a fundamental change in humanity and life as we know it (his predicted date is in 2012).

(Digression #3: isn't that exactly what the Valenzetti equation was supposed to represent- the date of the end of humanity or other type of doomsday event?)

McKenna's wave is referred to as a Time Wave, and a fundamental concept of the wave (until the end date) is recursion, which Wiki helpfully defines as "a process of repeating objects in a self-similar way. For instance, when the surfaces of two mirrors are almost parallel with each other the nested images that occur are a form of recursion."

(Digression #4- mirrors? repeating events?)

Because McKenna, was not a mathemetician, his theories were discredited. However, since his death, some scientists have taken up the challenge to study his theories and the mathematical equations of the King Wan trigrams.

One such scientist is nuclear physicist and mathemetician John Sheliak, who writes "I would argue that if the I-Ching does provide valid and meaningful information about the nature of "reality" that corresponds to, and is consistent with our experience of it, then it is a plausible thesis to propose that this information carrying process can be deciphered and expressed mathematically."

For those with some real interest in this topic, you can find a 50 page paper of Sheliak's mathematical anlysis of the I Ching at the following link.

http://tinyurl.com/4vt36f

#535. Posted by: Mizzed at May 24, 2008 1:00 AM

Here's a bit of theory on the relation between Alpert/Others/Jacob/Island:

When Desmond failed to push the button in time, 815 crashed. It wasn't planned by the Others. Jacob is responsible for bringing 815 there (or perhaps he answers to the Island itself). He also planned the inclusion of several 'special' people on the plane. But he didn't tell the Others about it.

The Others cannot see the future, and they can't change the past (course correction), but they can study the past. So Alpert a.o. timetravel back* and investigate the more 'special' passengers, to find out if any of them were actually destined to go to the Island. Alpert takes some of John's on-Island stuff (or good copies) to see if little Johnny recognizes any. The drawing on the wall already makes it clear that he is indeed somehow destined. Alpert is shocked by this. The Island/Jacob is making moves, without including him/others.

So now he's anxious to know what John's role will be. 'At least let him choose the book of laws and become a man of faith, loyal and easily misled, so we can make him an ally', Alpert thinks. But Locke goes for the knife. That means trouble. He's pissed, not so much at John as at Jacob, for deceiving him.

So the Others take Jacob captive, using the ash circle/Smokey/whatever. They want answers. He won't give them. So the Others don't allow him to meet John. They fool John into thinking he is meeting Jacob's representitive(Christian). The Others want to move the Island, because they want to keep it for themselves. Moving the Island won't even deal with Keamy and co. It is just a way to stay Lost. Jacob doesn't want that anymore. He has chosen the special people on 815 to somehow help him to change the doomed fate of mankind. In the end, this will probably require the free-willed choice of one person to sacrifice/destroy the Island and all it's magic.

Why were the 06 allowed to leave by the Others?
-Hurley was definitely invited by Jacob. He is a threat to the Others, especially because he can't be corrupted.
-Jack is a nuisance. He won't quit whining till he's off the Island. + he was also invited by Jacob.
-Said and Sun can be useful to the Others in the struggle against Widmore/Paik.
-Aaron is crucial to Jacob, so get rid of him
-Kate was also invited. She might not want to leave without Sawyer but she is given the responsibility of looking after Aaron.
-Oceanic 7&8: uh, I dunno


* I believe Alpert was indeed already living at the time of John's birth, due to the Island's apparent ability to extend human lifespan. Ofcourse, he did not know about John then. After the crash, he mind-warps back to his earlier self and visits John.

#536. Posted by: Robislost at May 24, 2008 7:33 AM

536. Posted by: Robislost
"They fool John into thinking he is meeting Jacob's representitive(Christian)."

I agree one hundred percent. I did not like the whole interview with Dr. dad. I felt as if they were leading Locke to where they wanted him to be, letting HIM answers his own questions and make the wrong choice as he has so many times. Watch dr. dad's face in the scene, he smirks like Ben after Ben conned Sayid into doing what Ben wanted, and having Sayid think he did it himself. I don't know where Jacob is, but I think that's why Ben did not go in, he knew it wasn't Jacob.

I like your theory. Almost all of it,I think it fits with mine if add time travel. But how do you explain Ben's knowledge of everything? Is he just very resourceful? He "Seems" to know what he "thinks" are future scenarios.

#537. Posted by: berkyo at May 24, 2008 11:09 AM

@Mizzed/535

Thanks for the info on bagua; I did not know this (exposing my ignorance of feng shui and the latest Wu-Tang CD). One lingering question I had was also answered by looking into this further: "Note that 'South' is always found at the top of the Bagua." I also feel really stupid over my next ackowledgement ... I had never paid enough attention to notice the trigram pattern on all station logos was the same (i.e, the bagua)! I noticed the difference between Ben's parka logo and the logo on the secondary protocol pamphlet, but for some reason had it in my head that the trigram patterns were different on all the other station logos as well ... doh! I just noticed something else though, and have no idea if it means anything or not ... the bagua shown on the wiki page has its trigrams "upside down" relative to the same trigrams on all the Dharma logos (i.e., the trigrams are presented "inside to outside" on the bagua wiki page, but "outside to inside" on the Dharma station logos). I clearly am not an expert as to the meaning of this, if any ... maybe the Dharma station logos are in error? Or maybe the trigram orientation doesn't matter? Or possibly it does, and holds some meaning ... do you know? (PS: I have subsequently noted the "bagua-like" symbol on the Wu-Tang Clan CD is not a valid bagua, in which case I'm glad I didn't know about it previously, or it would've confused the hell out of me even more).

Re Mr. McKenna and Mr. Sheliak (that's right, Mr.'s, NOT doctors [B.S. degrees both, not Ph.D.'s], as the New Age people who repackage their writings [especially Sheliak ... apparently a EE working with techniques for cryogenic preparation of experimental nuclear samples at Livermore, but NOT a nuclear physicist, other than as a prolifically blogging hobbyist] always make them out to be. I don't question that both of these guys were/are intelligent (McKenna died of brain cancer in 2000), any less than I would question the intellect of Robert Anton Wilson (who unfortunately just passed last year). However, in the same vein (especially Mr. Sheliak, who I'm sure loves his rather stumbled-into fame among certain circles), you simply MUST take anything said with a grain of salt. It's a very clever mix of truth and BS (RA Wilson, intentionally ... McKenna, I think unintentionally ... Sheliak, perhaps both).

Seriously, McKenna is best known for his "Stoned Ape" theory of human evolution (no doubt the product of dropping acid several thousand times with Tim Leary, between sampling copious amounts of every other drug known to man!), and his Dec 21, 2012 date is COMPLETELY taken from the Mayan calendar (despite what the wiki page says [clearly info provided by one of his followers]; this "rollover" date was well known since 1935 ... New Ager José Argüelles was just the first to gain any popularity with his claim the date had eschatological significance).

Re Sheliak's "analysis" of McKenna's "Novelty" theory; it is very ... creative. See my comments earlier regarding the ease with which many Valenzetti equations can be created to fit the numbers ... sometimes fitting a square peg into a round hole isn't as hard as it might seem (just listen to all the creative numbers coming from Big Oil lately! ... hey, I'll bet Mr. Sheliak could get a job with them.).

Anyway, while I don't buy any of it, I think it was a good find/theory on your part to work McKenna into the Lost scenario! Let's face it, absolutely nothing any of us write here could ever be considered beyond the "tongue-in-cheek" level in terms of actually predicting/understanding the Lost story, so why not reference facetious (intentionally or otherwise) sources?

On the otherhand, if this is your equivalent of my "Ursa Major" post, then I have truly been punked (and if so, very Wilsonesque!).

#538. Posted by: ealgumby at May 24, 2008 11:41 AM

@ Mr. Naysayer - I'd LOVE to go out with you! I'm so glad you finally asked...:)

@ bcre8ve - Thanks! I look forward to seeing your rendition of me. I'm having a gin and tonic right now in your honor (and in preparation for my date with Naysayer)

#539. Posted by: meg at May 24, 2008 5:30 PM

@Mizzed/535

Rereading my earlier response, I can see how it might be taken as somewhat disrespectful. I assure you, that was not my intent, and if so, I apologize. I thoroughly enjoy your insights, and find all you write very thought-provoking. Peace.

Second, you pointed out something else I was not aware of ... the difference between the "King Wen Sequence" and "Fuxi Sequence" (aka The Shao Yong Square). You are certainly correct to point out that the Dharma logos use the King Wen Sequence. However, "the numbers" are directly associated with the Fuxi Sequence (you won't find this on wiki, but can google it for links to info).

In the Fuxi Sequence, the hexagrams are ordered in straight binary order (note the "dashed lines" in trigrams/hexagrams correspond to binary zeroes, while the "solid lines" correspond to binary ones). Therefore, the Lost number 4, characterized in 6-figure binary as 000100, is the fifth entry in the Fuxi Sequence (ordered 0 to 63), and Lost number 16, for example, is the 17th entry. However, in the King Wen Sequence, 000100 is the 24th entry (ordered 1 to 64).

You can verify this by going to the wiki site for "King Wen Sequence" and looking at the "Chessboard Presentation" of the sequence ... beginning with "1" in the upper left, and going across to "8" on the first row, then starting the second row at "9" and so on. Note that the hexagrams are read in top/bottom trigram pair form, from the bottom up. Therefore, entry "24" (the last on the third row in the chessboard presentation - top trigram [top three lines] dash-dash-dash bottom-to-top, and bottom trigram [bottom three lines] solid-dash-dash), is in fact 000100 in binary ... number "4" when converted from binary to decimal.

Also note that the hexagram numbers in the "Hexagram Lookup Table" for the wiki "I Ching" site, are the King Wen Sequence equivalents (in case some of you may have been wondering why I translated Lost number "4" as the meaning for entry "24" from that table). Honestly, I was unaware of the "Fuxi Sequence" when I posted my original translation ... I just followed the rules suggested on the wiki "I Ching" site for translating each hexagram in terms of its top/bottom trigrams. Finding later today that the Fuxi Sequence directly corresponds to the Lost numbers was just a bonus.

In summary, what I find interesting is that the Lost "numbers" are essentially the Fuxi Sequence translations of King Wen Sequence hexagrams, yet they use the King Wen Sequence trigrams in their bagua for Dharma station logos.

What this means, if anything aside from being devious, is beyond me ...

#540. Posted by: ealgumby at May 24, 2008 6:27 PM

@bcre8ve - Is your name Carlos??? If so, it's a small world!!! (If not, pls disregard...there have been MANY gin and tonics while I have been waiting for Naysayer to respond...maybe he is just a Naysayer!!!) :)

#541. Posted by: meg..aka..mif...aka... Ben's meg at May 24, 2008 8:35 PM

@Mizzed/486
"Alpacas, the most unmizzled animals in the world, pray upon small children while they are asleep and eat their limbs."

I guess I'm the only one here with no life ... :(

So I choose to occupy a bit of my time pondering the mysteries of ... the alpaca!

First of all, I must ask ... do the alpacas "pray" upon small children before noshing on their limbs, as in a kind of pre-meal grace, or do they "prey" upon them, as the blood-thirsty Holy-Grail-killer-rabbit-wannabes they long, deep, deep, within their furry loins, to be!?

Hmm ... let's go to wiki, the source of all acknowledged knowledge, and see what it has to say ...

Aha! Confirmation that these blood-thirsty beasts are roaming unchecked across the pampas! And for those of you with weak constitutions, I advise restraint before viewing this image, as it is quite graphic, and disturbing at multiple levels! ...

tinyurl.com/67tlvq

Brrr ... still shivering from that horrible visage of alpaca child-munching monstrosity!

Oh, and we have Lost correlations here as well ... please register THIS account of Jack's alpaca-like breathing: "[Jack] warn[s] the herd about intruders by making sharp, noisy inhalations that sound like a high pitch burro bray." It's simply incontrovertible! And if anyone should question me, ponder this ... "When alpacas breed, males make a similar noise called an 'orgle' ... This can sound like a warbling or gargling noise in the back or the throat ... A male in the act of mating, or hoping for a chance to mate, 'orgles'."

Jack simply MUST be an alpaca ... in sheep's clothing! He simply CANNOT be allowed to be around Aaron, given his tendency to lust over gnawing into his limbs ... realizing his weakness, Jack valiantly tries to distance himself from Aaron, with NO understanding from Kate (gawd, how STUPID can she be?).

Fortunately for Kate, (again, according to wiki) "once socialized well, some alpacas tolerate being stroked or petted anywhere on their bodies." Hmmm. Has Kate explored that possibility in lieu of his Aaron-chowing tendencies?

PS: I may not be well-socialized, but I DO tolerate being stroked or petted anywhere on my body ... by the right person!

PPS: I'm not an alpaca. Nor gay ... not that there's anything wrong with that.

PPPS: Captain's log ... I'm tired!

Nevermind ...

#542. Posted by: ealgumby at May 24, 2008 8:45 PM

@ealgumby - I am glad that I consider you a friend!!! :)

#543. Posted by: meg...aka...Cindy's scarf at May 24, 2008 8:56 PM

@meg/541
"I have been waiting for Naysayer to respond...maybe he is just a Naysayer"

Ah meg, if only we could have Paris back again, it might all have been different ... but I must leave you to monsieur Nay-Say-urr ... I've got a job to do. And where I'm going you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of. Meg, I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Some day you'll understand that. Here's looking at you, kid.

Get her on that plane, Mr. Naysayer!

#544. Posted by: ealgumby at May 24, 2008 8:58 PM

@542. Posted by: ealgumby
====================
I have to admit,,,
when you are not being incredibly darn smart,
or incredibly darn bipolar,
or incredibly darn depressed,,,

you are incredibly freakin' funny.

#545. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 24, 2008 9:07 PM

@MorBid0/545
"I have to admit,,,
when you are not being incredibly darn smart,
or incredibly darn bipolar,
or incredibly darn depressed,,,"

Exactly WHAT the F' are you trying to ...

OH, hey there's a yucca flower ...

How bEE-YOU-TEE-full! Do you understand that there's a symbiotic relationship between the ONLY moth (Tegeticula maculata) that will polinate the yucca plant (Yucca whipplei), and hence holds the key for BOTH of their survivals!? DO YOU?

What the hell was I talking about?

Oh come on, stop making fun of me ... really, what was I talking about?

#546. Posted by: ealgumby at May 24, 2008 9:24 PM

→ 525, 538, 540. ealgumby: I Ching & the Numbers:

Wow! That required some concentration reading & three open browser windows (here, Wiki, Lostpedia). Very interesting ideas & correlations...thanks ealgumby.

Regarding the interpretations of each hexagram, I can see that they have relevance to what we've seen for the last four years in terms of various themes of the show. Although "modesty" & "being reserved" actually make me think of Sun...hmm. Suppose instead of the themes of the show, each hexagram corresponds to a member of the O6? "Start of something new" = Aaron. "Modesty, being reserved" = Sun. "Withdrawal" = Hurley (withdrawing to Santa Rosa). "Bringing together" = Jack (who wanted to keep the Lostaways together & who wanted to bring together an army). "Conflict" = Sayid (who's working for Ben, reluctantly). That would leave "Completion" for Kate, & at this point she seems the most contented of the O6 (not to say that that won't change). Did becoming a mother "complete" her? (Reminds me of Murphy Brown singing "You make me feel like a natural woman" to her infant...which always annoyed me anyway w/its suggestion that a woman had to have a child to be a natural woman, but I digress.)

→ 529. lostinVT: Location in VT:

Born in Bennington myself!

#547. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 24, 2008 9:29 PM

→ 525. Posted by: ealgumby re: I Ching hexagrams/numbers
→ 528. Posted by: berkyo re: Jack jumping in time.

Head s.l.o.w.l.y. exploding. My only question is do people who died on the island fit into the Jack time-jumping theory? I'm not coherent enough to figure it out. I do think the writers may well pull the rug out from under us re: frontstory/backstory time.

Can't wait to see how Locke moves the island -- will it be physically, in time, via scarf? Will he blow something up again? Will he finally get some island action? Will anyone die this episode? Will Smokey sleep with The polar Bear and spawn a wildfire-fighting mascot?

#548. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 24, 2008 9:34 PM

I have a boil ...

No, actually I really don't, but just thought that would get your attention in an oddly ILBxx kind of way ...

I have tattoos! True enough ...

mmm ... must have had enough La Maudite for the evening ... I'm rambling ... My brain hurts!

Does anyone else think airlines charging to check bags will lead to even MORE irritating AHs bringing all their sh@t into the cabin to stuff into overhead bins w/o enough space already?

Does anyone else think the terrorists will wait until after the election to launch their next major attack, hence trying to undermine the authority of whoever wins?

Does anyone else think that commodity prices have gone through the roof, because the financial market bastards who sold us a line of BS in the RE bubble, and lost their shorts in the RE bust are trying to cut their losses short by creating a food/fuel/metal bubble (at the common citizens' sufferance), selling long on the upside, while selling short on the downside?

Does anyone else think the non-CEO man is taking it in the shorts as a result?

Does anyone else think these pieces of crap need to be lined up against a wall and disposed of Ceauşescu style?

Oh no ... I'm letting my bipolar side speak again! Heh, heh. heh.

Maybe ...

#549. Posted by: ealgumby at May 24, 2008 10:47 PM

ealgumby-

I wasn't offended, so no apology is necessary. My references to McKenna and Sheliak were both relevant and irrelevant, facetious and serious.

I believe Lost changed in season 2, perhaps when the creative team felt comfortable enough in the show's success to push past the original story concepts. While the early episodes were multilayered and full of cultural references, they were also more traditional, i.e. episodic and character based.

They took the show instead down a much more complicated, almost mythic path, and one considerably darker. Not only are we unsure as to the answers, we are often on unsteady ground when it comes to determining the right questions. By taking this road, they have lost close to half of their initial viewership, but have also made some of the finest televison ever produced.

Each name, detail, set prop and cultural reference we are shown may mean everything or may mean nothing. In the case of something like the I Ching, it may be both. Because of that, our discussions here are stimulating and engaging, but may also be absurd and ultimately unresolved. The fear is that we are Vladimir and Estragon, waiting for Godot.

There are no accidents in Lost, but is there meaning? Someone involved in the show researched the significance of the bagua, and built it into the Dharma logo, just as they presumably researched the divination and mathematical aspects of the I Ching, as well as the writings of spaced out New Agers like McKenna who believe that the I Ching equations can be used to determine the exact date of the end of humanity.

I landed here because of the sense of community, the quality of conversation, and the belief that as we collectively pool our faith in Lost, so the Lost team will recognize and repay our passion with not only gripping entertainment, but with rewarding and mind expanding answers.

In the end, what more could we possibly ask of a televison show?

#550. Posted by: Mizzed at May 24, 2008 11:18 PM

@Mizzed/550
"In the end, what more could we possibly ask of a televison show?"

Thank you ... a television show cannot, and should not, become the source of life's mysteries. That's why I loved "Twin Peaks" (with all of its failings as a series, the "Tibet" episode is still the best EVER broadcast by any show ... ever), "The Prisoner" (though, Patrick McGoohan's idiosyncrasies w/ regard to plot involvement were odd at best, yet it all seemed to work out okay), "Millennium" (interestingly, starring Lance Henriksen and Terry O'Quinn [LOCKE!], as the man behind the ...), and "Nowhere Man" ( the BEST show no one watched ... but was damned, DAMNED, good!). These shows made me THINK, but did not pretend to offer any insight into the workings of the universe, which is why I enjoyed them. Interesting pretense ... no judgement. "Lost" hangs in the balance ...

I do not expect a TV show to answer the pending unresolved questions of the universe ... but I do expect it to entertain. If it makes me think in the process, so much the better. Lost wins in both categories.

I only hope "Lost" can continue to reside on my future "best of TV" list ...

#551. Posted by: ealgumby at May 25, 2008 12:17 AM

Jack is a dumbass.
He breathes like a psycho.
He does stupid things.

#552. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 25, 2008 7:29 AM


" . . is a DUMBASS"


Does your mother know you talk like this!?!?


And on Sunday Morning, for goodness sakes!


:-)

#553. Posted by: davidrh at May 25, 2008 7:56 AM

@ bcre8ve - 513
Yeah sorry, I wanted the one with the Halo to be in the portrait. (The last one I sent you). I guess I should have told you that.

#554. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 25, 2008 7:59 AM

@ davidrh - 553
Haha, no she doesn't actually. She thinks I'm a sweet innocent child that never said a curse in her life. She only got half of that right... I am a sweet innocent child, but I have cursed before. =]

And plus Jack deserves it. =D (Evil Smiley)

That was my first attempt to a haiku.

#555. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 25, 2008 8:37 AM

@552 iloveben haiku
Gives the word "jack-ass" a whole new meaning...

#556. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 25, 2008 10:07 AM

@YouAllEverybody:

If you haven't seen the most recent issue of TIME magazine, check out pg. 60...very nice article on how LOST got its mojo back.

#557. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 25, 2008 1:31 PM

@@@@@@@@@

Meg! I am so glad that you feel the same way... its about time we let the romance sweep us up... the sexual tension in our postings has just been too much lately... (Ha!)

Where and what do you want to do on our date? Watch the finale Thursday night together and eat popcorn and drink some wine? Then after the finale ends I think it might be time for fireworks...

@@@@@@@@

#558. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 25, 2008 2:31 PM

Mr_Naysayer / MEG . . .


Could you guys get a room? . . .


oh wait.


That's probably the idea.

nevermind.

#559. Posted by: davidrh at May 25, 2008 4:55 PM

@Naysayer & Davidrh - mac's liable to catch on soon and kick us off this blog!! :) Funny, when I was reading reviews from the early seasons he was much more strict. I think being a father has softened him up some.

I have something fun we can do to tide us over for a little while until Thursday. Kind of along the lines of bcre8ve's characterization picture. Which Lost character do you feel most resembles you???

Hmm, for me... none of them look like me, but personality-wise it would have to be Kate. 'cept I haven't ever killed anyone..yet...hehehe (just kidding...I killed a wasp yesterday)

#560. Posted by: meg at May 25, 2008 5:20 PM

When all the people get from the island to the freighter, there is going to be a displeased communication with Widmore. He is going to point out that with all the survivors, keeping the island a secret will be impossible. He is going to threaten them that if they don't cut the numbers down, and come up with a story that he will find and destroy the island. Many people who remain on the island will have their lives in danger (Rose, Bernard, Locke, ???).

The group will argue, fight, and some heart-felt decisions will be made. Perhaps resulting in the death of Jin. Or not?? Some will return to the island, and a select group will be dumped on that other island from the freighter.

The decisions made in those heart-felt moments will bring tears to our eyes. Those who stay will appear comfortable with it, but those who leave will eventually be wracked with guilt.

The next season will be spent getting back to the island. The last season will be on the island to wrap up loose ends. With the ultimate ending being that they will all remain together in harmony, and by that time Juliet will have solved the riddle of pregnant women dying.

You can thank white wine for this amazing revelation!!!

#561. Posted by: meg at May 25, 2008 5:45 PM

@ Scooby-Dude - 556
Haha! I never thought of it like that. Nice one.

@ Mr_Naysayer and Meg
Yes, please, get a room. You're letting me down on the whole "idol" thing. You're supposed to be a good role model too. -- Comes with the job description.

@ meg - 560
I'd say... probably Hurley. Not because he's fat and psycho... because I'm actually really skinny and well, not exactly normal, but you know what I mean. It's because I say random funny things like he does to "loosen up" conversations.

But look wise, like I said before, probably Naomi. Just because she's the closest to "my kind"... but not.

#562. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 25, 2008 6:46 PM

Look-wise I have Hurley's hair, and probably the rest of me is Juliet - including the coloring.

#563. Posted by: meg at May 25, 2008 8:28 PM

@@@@@@@@

ilovebenjaminlinusxx - yeah, you're right... I hear ya... see, all I need is for you to talk some sense into me every once in a while... thanks - I needed that...

okay, back to talking about that show with all the stranded survivors on the deserted island...

@@@@@@@@@@

#564. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 26, 2008 2:01 AM

sniff, sniff...does this mean we've broken up??? It was the "hurley's hair" thing, wasn't it?? Let me know so I don't use that line in future relationships...:)

#565. Posted by: meg at May 26, 2008 8:21 AM

@ Mr_Naysayer - 564
Thank you. That was a noble thing to do. =]

I'm still your number 1 fan!!!

(and I bet you're still meg's knight in shining armor)... haha.

#566. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 26, 2008 12:38 PM

@560 Meg:

Let's see. I'm chronically 20 pounds overweight. I smoke too much, and I smoke too much. Not smooth with the ladies. Don't get out much. Funny (sometimes). Easy to talk to. Gentle. A bit frustrated sometimes. I say 'gast' all the time, which is the Dutch equivalent of 'dude'. So I guess I'm Hurley with a hint of Charlie.

The character I would like to identify with most is Locke. He's a loser. He's Rambo. He's naive. He's a leader. He's a cripple. He's a hunter. All that misery, pain, suffering, his entire life, and then suddenly there's meaning, purpose, destiny, power. The man has already become an icon to me.

Btw, serious pointer towards Locke ultimately shifting from tragic hero to tragic bad guy; no love (interest). No constant, I guess you could say. I personally would love a menacing, Darth Locke type storyline for John. As long as he makes it to the S06 finale.

But who knows, maybe Bernard was Oceanic nr 7, and in S05, John mellows out and takes Rose on a stroll down the beach to a surprise, planned picnic.

#567. Posted by: Robislost at May 26, 2008 1:37 PM

548. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
Do dead people fit into a theory of Jack being a time Jumper.

I don't see why not.
(Not that the time stick theory is correct. Maybe the stick is just a weapon.}

If the universe needed you to die to correct the time line, then you would have to die. Like Charlie. No matter how Desmond tried, Charlie would die in some fashion.

Now, if you died on the island but weren't supposed to die, that would require a time jump to stop the death from occurring. And the time jumper would not have to specifically step and say nooooooo! and push the about to die person aside. They could instead, suggest to someone that the person about to die by drowning, should be in the Hatch that day instead of on the beach.

(But if you course correct ,don't you set another series of events in motion?
The course correct would have to be a specific actions with all possible outcomes studied)

SO, If the universe can course correct to make sure Charlie dies somehow,that would mean that someone, a time jumper would have to manipulate it to happen. Okay and likewise, if the person who died, should not have died, then the universe could course correct that too.

And MAYBE, that's what will happen (or may have already if the stick is real and an implement of time travel) Certain castaways will/are slipping back into their former minds to arrange a few details to help course correct.

I am not sure I understand the hexagrams. I need another monitor to have all those screens open at once. But have you ever noticed the blast door map? It is a 7 sided figure drawn by people that may not have seen all the hatches.Maybe it should be 8. How many are there? ok, it looks like 10 possibler stations so that doesn't match up. I found a page that shows a chart with logo like markings. a solid line =0 and a broken line equals 1. So the top mark on the hatch symbols would be 001 and that equals 2. and the next to the right is 7, then 1,0,5,6,3,4 (If I did it right) But I guess you know this already. I don't see any meaning in this either.

Someone mentioned that Jack disappears for a few minutes when the Smoke monster who took the Pilot is after then. he never explains. Was he in hi future or past mind?

#568. Posted by: berkyo at May 26, 2008 3:03 PM

sorry, 2 would equal 010

#569. Posted by: berkyo at May 26, 2008 3:04 PM

@Mizzed/550
"In the end, what more could we possibly ask of a televison show?"

Fewer commercials. I hate the "show is half over and we know you are not switching channels so we are piling on the ads" one.

#570. Posted by: berkyo at May 26, 2008 3:11 PM

You can thank white wine for this amazing revelation!!!
→ 561. Posted by: meg

Red wine has all those riboflavins. You should switch. I don't know if it would effect the shape of a post though.......

#571. Posted by: berkyo at May 26, 2008 3:18 PM

→ 560. meg: Which LOST character do you resemble?

In looks I'm closest to Kate, but in age I'm probably a bit closer to Rose. As far as personality, I took one of the "Which LOST character would you be?" quizzes a while back & came out as Charlie...which sounds quite funny, as neither the heroin addiction nor rock star (one-hit wonder or otherwise) is true. But I think it's pretty accurate all the same.

#572. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 26, 2008 5:28 PM

@meg/560
"Which Lost character do you feel most resembles you???"

None exactly, but maybe a morph of Sawyer and Charlie ... Charlie-ish nose and mouth, more Sawyer-ish cheeks & jaw, Charlie hair (color and length) but a bit wavier, Sawyer eyes and brows, body more Sawyer than Charlie.

#573. Posted by: ealgumby at May 27, 2008 12:56 AM

Re: the photo taken of the O6 coming onshore...could not see Aaron with Kate.

Last week's People magazine showed a photo from a different vantage point of that beach scene in the photo we saw at the press conference. It is taken from the front of the group coming onshore...Sun is on the left, Kate in the middle holding what appears to be Aaron and a fisherman, I assume. Guess we will see the rescue, the "plan" of the O6 and whatever else a season finale has in store for us on Thursday night. The photo shown at the press conference was fromt he side, so hard to make out who was in line, walking onto the beach.

#574. Posted by: boodle at May 27, 2008 6:53 AM

Which Lost Character do I resemble? Well, I would like to tell you that I look exactly like Sawyer, only better . . . but that’s only in my imagination . . .

And since my website was public knowledge for the blog members several seasons ago and there is a picture of overweight, bald, but extremely happy person ME next to DarrellAnn in the Lost News . . and to make matters worst, bcre8ve REALLY pegged me in the “Simpson Group Photo” last season . . . I will have to admit to being probably more like Bernard than any of the others . . .

(In defense of the “Rambo Bernard Status”, I did carry a M-60 machine gun in my army days in the late 60’s, early 70’s . . . )

And of course, like Bernard, I am totally devoted to the wife of almost 39 years . . .

I just WISH I had Hurley’s hair!

#575. Posted by: davidrh at May 27, 2008 8:53 AM

@ Everyone

The Lost season finale is playing at the movie theater in my town, and it's FREE! Just thought I'd let you guys know in case you want to see if the same thing is offered in your town. Our theater is a drafthouse too so you can order beer and wine (I knew you’d like that, Meg). I'll probably still end up watching it at home because I want to be able to rewind during those WTF moments. But it might be a fun experience to see it with the masses nonetheless.

#576. Posted by: Skipper at May 27, 2008 9:09 AM

@ meg 560
“Which Lost character do you feel most resembles you???”

I have to say that I’m a combo of Kate and Naomi. I have Kate’s hair but it’s auburn/reddish and freckles like her too. But I have dark eyes like Naomi, and Naomi’s build. My personality is not even close to either of theirs… I’m more laid back like Hurley, but I do have my Juliet moments where I’m like, “Jack, we have to do something”. I’d never survive on that island….I would have grabbed Jack, Kate, Locke and Sawyer by the ears a long time ago and said, “Why don’t you just talk to each other… the answers are right there if you just freaking communicate”.

#577. Posted by: Skipper at May 27, 2008 9:26 AM

@ 528/berkyo

If you believe that that it is Ben's stick next to Jack in the pilot, there is another simple explanation:

Ben was on Flight 815.

#578. Posted by: welh at May 27, 2008 9:48 AM

@573 - ealgumby

would you like to meet for a drink sometime :-)

#579. Posted by: lostinVT at May 27, 2008 9:54 AM

@560 meg proposed:

>I have something fun we can do to tide us over for a little while until Thursday. Kind of along the lines of bcre8ve's characterization picture. Which Lost character do you feel most resembles you???

Hmmm,
Physiognomy.....Hurley
Hair............Jack
Spirit..........Locke
Emotions........Bernard
Playfulness.....Charlie
In my Dreams....Sawyer

#580. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 27, 2008 10:28 AM

@ welh - 578
"If you believe that that it is Ben's stick next to Jack in the pilot, there is another simple explanation:

Ben was on Flight 815."

... I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, but Ben couldn't have been on 815 because he was shown in the Barraks when the plane crashed.

---------------------

So what if Nathan didn't die?

... even though Goodwin snapped his neck, but still.

I feel kinda bad for him. That would be a pretty fustrating life on the island.

Ana-Lucia was madd annoying.

---------------------

Maybe I can say I look like Alex... Kinda. I don't really have a deformed face like she does, but maybe the body.

I guess a little sinnier, and more leg muscle.

Yeah, I guess I'd say I'm mostly like Alex with a hint of Hurley and Charlie sense of humor/personality.

...even though I don't really show my "funny side" here.

#581. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 27, 2008 11:13 AM

@581/ ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Not kidding.
Since nothing has been fully explained, anything is possible. I vaguely recall in one of the flashbacks a long time ago, there was an airport scene prior to 815 boarding that had good ol' Ben in the background.
At the time, the consensus was that it may have been part of a weird confused dream. But now with the concepts of time travel, paradoxes, duplicate bodies/clones -- - who knows?

#582. Posted by: welh at May 27, 2008 11:22 AM

@578/wehl

It's possible that only the stick was on Flt 815. Ben could have stumbled across it when he escaped the hatch.

#583. Posted by: DW at May 27, 2008 11:36 AM

"I guess a little sinnier, and more leg muscle."
581. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Did you say "sin"-nier . . ?

Maybe you should talk to a Priest about that.


:-)

#584. Posted by: davidrh at May 27, 2008 11:59 AM

→ 584. Posted by: davidrh:

"I guess a little sinnier, and more leg muscle."
581. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Did you say "sin"-nier . . ?

I'm sure that was a Freudian slip on iloveblxx's part...
; )

#585. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 27, 2008 12:12 PM

Did anyone say this already?
They must have... I was just watching season 2 again, and in "What Kate Did" Eko talks about the Book of Law to John.

EKO: Hello. I have something I think you should see. If you don't mind, I will begin at the beginning. Long before Christ the king of Judah was a man named Josiah.

LOCKE: Boy when you say beginning, you mean beginning.

EKO: At that time the temple where the people worshipped was in ruin. And so the people worshipped idols, false gods. And so the kingdom was in disarray. Josiah, since he was a good king, sent his secretary to the treasury and said: "We must rebuild the temple. Give all of the gold to the workers so that this will be done." But when the secretary returned, he had no gold. And when Josiah asked why this was the secretary replied, "We found a book." Do you know this story?

LOCKE: No, I'm afraid I don't.

EKO: What the secretary had found was an ancient book -- the Book of Law. You may know it as the Old Testament. And it was with that ancient book, not with the gold, that Josiah rebuilt the temple. On the other side of the island we found a place much like this, and in this place we found a book. [Eko unwraps the book and pushes it toward Locke] I believe what's inside there will be of great value to you.

[Locke opens the book. A square has been cut out, and inside is a piece of film.]

This was probably said in Cabin Fever, but I thought I'd bring it up just incase.

The writers are geniuses.

-----------------

@ welh - 582
Good point. But would he be able to get it on the plane? It could be possible that he was two places at once.

Maybe he has a MOTP... Maybe it's LOCKE (from the future), or maybe Hugo... Or maybe it's some dead guy.

OR maybe the electromagnetism sucked up Ben's death stick and threw it near Jack when the electromagnetism was released and dropped the plane.

Yeah, I have no idea why I'm still typing. Sorry if I wasted anyone's time with that.

@ davidrh - 584
MY BAD. I meant skinnier. Haha.

#586. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 27, 2008 12:43 PM

@ 586 ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Yike! skinnier than Alex??? oh honey, you're gonna have to come to my house for a home cooked Tunisian meal….. I’ll make all of Ben’s favorites for you!

“Smoked” rabbit (a la monster)
Polar Bear kebabs
Orchid stew
Death stick ice cream pops

#587. Posted by: Skipper at May 27, 2008 12:55 PM

@ Skipper - 587
Sounds good, but I'm vegetarian.
I'll take the Death Stick ice cream pops though!

I just have a high metabolism.
I recently just broke 100 lbs.

BUT I eat A LOT, and a lot of candy. I have a feeling it's going to catch up to me one day. Haha.

#588. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 27, 2008 1:21 PM

@582 welh advised:

>@581/ ilovebenjaminlinusxx

>Not kidding.
>Since nothing has been fully explained, anything is possible. I vaguely recall in one of the flashbacks a long time ago, there was an airport scene prior to 815 boarding that had good ol' Ben in the background.
>At the time, the consensus was that it may have been part of a weird confused dream. But now with the concepts of time travel, paradoxes, duplicate bodies/clones -- - who knows?

That was Locke's fever-dream in the sweathouse, wherein he was being shown all the characters (in the airport milleau) by the ghost of Boone, one of whom he was supposed to save. Ben appeared as a security guard.

#589. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 27, 2008 1:34 PM

FOR: Alaïs_Longthought. OFF SUBJECT.

Alaïs . .

I bookmark about two dozen websites on my home computer that are, for the most part, humorous in nature. This morning, I was browsing thru several of them and I thought of you.

One of the webspots is stuffthatwhitepeoplelike(dot)wordpress(dot)com. It is a very funny website. #99 on the ever-widening list this morning was entitled "GRAMMAR".

I QUOTE THE OPENING PARAGRAPH:

White people love rules. It explains why so they get upset when people cut in line, why they tip so religiously and why they become lawyers. But without a doubt, the rule system that white people love the most is grammar. It is in their blood not only to use perfect grammar but also to spend significant portions of time pointing out the errors of others

It goes on and on. So many HILARIOUS subjects. You should check it out.

Newest editorial: "Bumper Stickers"

Everybody enjoy. It will give you some laughs until Thursday night rolls around.

DRH

#590. Posted by: davidrh at May 27, 2008 1:56 PM

*** Semi spoiler (mostly speculation)***

I read somewhere here that the actor who plays Walt is on the cast for thursday's finale, but I haven't checked it. If so, it could be a minor part, like a brief ghost appearance. He could also turn out to be crucial in this episode.

Either way, Walt will have to become a major player next season, the way his story has been set up. Either that, or kill him off. He has awesome supernatural powers and he's seen some of the Others' secrets. Then he's muffled away for a long time. TPTB said that they will deal with him next season. But maybe we have been intentionally pushed away from Walt, as a perfect set up for a jaw dropping revelation about his influence on past/current/future events on the Island. If so, I hope the actor is up to the challenge.

#591. Posted by: Robislost at May 27, 2008 2:28 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but when Locke had his dream, he had not yet met Ben.

#592. Posted by: welh at May 27, 2008 2:43 PM

@591. Robislost
* * * * * * *
re: Walt in the credits.
Creators also hinted that they were going to answer the 'casket' question soon. Two birds, one stone. Walt's in the casket. He somehow hosed the Losties and nobody went to his memorial.
* * * * * * *

#593. Posted by: DocH at May 27, 2008 3:14 PM

→ 590. davidrh: stuffthatwhitepeoplelike*wordpress*com:

Thanks for the recommendation! I will definitely have to go check out that site. What you quoted reminds me of the old car commercial—for Volkswagen, maybe?—where the teacher is droning "Stay between the lines...the lines are your friends..." : )

#594. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 27, 2008 3:34 PM

@ 593. Posted by: DocH

Here’s what the obituary says:

Los Angeles
Man found dead in
downtown loft

"The body of Jo ~*~ antham of
New York was discovered shortly after 4
a.m. in the ~*~ of Grand
Avenue. Ted [lastname], [a door]man at The
Tower ~*~ heard loud
noises ~*~ antham's loft.
~*~ [sa]fety, he co[nfessed]
~*~ discovered the
~*~ entered the loft a beam
in the ~*~ mom ~*~ [ac]cordin[g]

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

We know that Michael lived in NY, we know that the church had an African American following, we know that Michael was suicidal. We know that Walt lived with his grandmother in a house, not a loft. I think that Michael is in the casket…. If it were Walt then the heading would read, “Teenager ghost found dead in granny’s house”

#595. Posted by: Skipper at May 27, 2008 4:09 PM

So I checked out the link davidrh recommended, stuffwhitepeoplelike, & read (of course) the article on grammar. First, w/regard to the accompanying picture, what self-respecting person corrects grammar w/a pencil? One must use an indelible pen in an attention-grabbing color (I prefer pink or purple; red's usually reserved for Legal) to ensure that the author realizes his/her mistake(s) & can't stealthily erase the correction(s). Second, there are half a dozen spelling/punctuation mistakes in the article. There. Now I can spend the rest of the day feeling smug & superior... ; > ; > ;>

#596. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 27, 2008 5:32 PM

595. Posted by: Skipper
- - - -
What church?

What following?

Creators of LOST have implied that the OBIT was not for the casket-dweller. Also that Locke was originally who they intended to put in the casket... but that has changed.

Many aliases on the show (Ben=Dean, Michael=Kevin), three years after OA6 with dishoveled-Jack... casket alias could equal anyone.

#597. Posted by: DocH at May 27, 2008 5:45 PM

I was watching "The Greater Good" from S1 (that's where John admits to hitting Sayid over the head and busting up his radio) and in one scene Sayid looks at John and says "I did it because I sense you may be our best hope of surviving here." Just thought it was an interesting comment made way back when. That's also the same show where Shannon shoots Locke. Think the island got mad at her? Thinking back, I also realize that Walt was the reason for Shannon's death.

#598. Posted by: pebspostal at May 27, 2008 7:21 PM

597. Posted by: DocH

I was referring to the church where the funeral/wake or whatever it was happened in Through the Looking Glass. I got the rest of the info from Lostpedia... and yes, you're right the producers did say that the obituary will be rewritten....guess we'll have to wait 2 days to find out who is in the coffin, but I just have a feeling that it's Michael!

#599. Posted by: Skipper at May 27, 2008 8:17 PM

Ben was on Flight 815.
→ 578. Posted by: welh

Now, come on, you know he was missing a book club (not invited) and ran outside with the other others when they heard the wormhole opening.

I played the pilot for friends over the holiday and most were NOT sure that it was Ben's stick. I am afraid I was swayed a bit I am very fickle) and am starting to doubt it myself. It sure looks like his stick.....but it also looks like a black piece of bamboo.

The sounds of the first night and the following morning that some think is the island moving? It seemed like only part of the island was moving. Like, if the island was on a lazy Susan and the inside was turning but not the outer edge. Maybe they only need to change the wormhole door to move the island.

#600. Posted by: berkyo at May 27, 2008 8:21 PM

600!!!!

I can wait until Thursday!!

#601. Posted by: Skipper at May 27, 2008 8:23 PM

Ben was on Flight 815.
→ 578. Posted by: welh

He was sitting between Zelig and Forrest Gump.

#602. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 27, 2008 8:30 PM

Hey, I am watching a remake of The Andromeda Strain on Bravo and I think one of the scientists is Jin! He speaks English very well and is really smart too!
Anybody see this? There is a reporter too and he looks a bit like Boone?

Loved the original, one of the first Sci fi that I read,not sure how this is holding up as a remake, but there was a violent scene of a guy chain sawing off his own head. Yuch! I don't think that was in the original.

#603. Posted by: berkyo at May 27, 2008 8:34 PM

Hi all everybody! I just wanted to share how much of a Lost nerd I am. I wanted to enjoy the finale with a nice bottle of wine so what did I get?.....Jacob's Creek shiraz!! And it's Australian too! If only it was called Jacob's Shack

#604. Posted by: RazzleDazzle at May 27, 2008 8:48 PM

596. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

See? I knew you'd love it!!!!!


DRH

#605. Posted by: davidrh at May 27, 2008 9:02 PM

Oops! sorry for the multi-post!

#606. Posted by: RazzleDazzle at May 27, 2008 9:24 PM

→ 599. Posted by: Skipper
I was referring to the church where the funeral/wake or whatever it was hap...
- - - -
Oh. You meant the 'memorial' service at the 'funeral parlor' in the quaint 'urban neighborhood'... I thought I had missed something.
[:^)

#607. Posted by: DocH at May 27, 2008 9:33 PM

@ RazzleDazzle - 607
Yeah like a thousand bagillion gazillion times.

It's okay though, we all do it.

Actually, we all do it ONCE. You did it TWICE. But it's okay... I guess.

I just can't wait till Thursday.

Let's try to get 700 so I can be #700!!!

#608. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 27, 2008 9:33 PM

Wow. It's ironic how I just double posted. But that wasn't my fault. It gave me and error message and all I did was refresh the page, and BAM all of a sudden there were TWO. I didn't even click "post" again.

Whatever.

#609. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 27, 2008 9:36 PM

@603 Posted by: berkyo re: Jin on Andromeda Strain

That is Jin. I saw the promo for that show the other day and noticed him. Is that a new series or only a two-part event? Thought about the availability of the actor to be involved in other projects...does that mean he will have less involvement/part for the finale...Season 5...?

#610. Posted by: boodle at May 27, 2008 9:41 PM

@ ilovebenjaminlinusxx- 608

This is a needless post to get closer to 700! :)

#611. Posted by: RazzleDazzle at May 27, 2008 9:49 PM

@lostinVT/579
"would you like to meet for a drink sometime :-)"

Well, Vermont may be a bit of a stretch, but ...

I'm hoisting a cold one right now ... cheers!

#612. Posted by: ealgumby at May 27, 2008 9:59 PM

→ 608. Posted by: DocH

>>Oh. You meant the 'memorial' service at the 'funeral parlor' in the quaint 'urban neighborhood'.

YES! That's exactly what I mean. LOLLLL!

#613. Posted by: Skipper at May 27, 2008 10:14 PM

612. Posted by: boodle

Well, I need to correct myself - not an uncommon occurrence. It was on A&E not Bravo and it was Jin but the reporter was the guy from Will and Grace. Husband recognized him.

it was a 2 parter, the whole show being shown tonight and it was a pretty good remake. They added double crossing government/pentagon/scientist/industrials Earth rapers. Just the normal stuff. They also had wormholes and an explanation that I understood as well as the one here.........And a set of numbers!!!!!! mysteriously sent back from the future to SAVE THE WORLD! Now where did they get that from? And if you watched the miniseries, you know what the LOST numbers could mean. Very interesting.

#614. Posted by: berkyo at May 27, 2008 11:10 PM

@berkyo/614

Re Andromeda Strain ...

WORST ... REMAKE ... EVER!

I swear, if there is any thumb-tossing going on Thursday night, I will stop watching Lost immediately!

I now have NO idea why I subjected myself to watching this complete CRAP in its entirety ... suckered in by the ads I suppose, but regret it now, and feel stupid for having been so mentally weak ...

#615. Posted by: ealgumby at May 27, 2008 11:28 PM

!Second, there are half a dozen
!spelling/punctuation mistakes in the
!article. There. Now I can spend the
!rest of the day feeling smug &
!superior... ; > ; > ;>

!→ 596. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought
!at !May 27, 2008 5:32 PM

Now who's intruding on MY territory!

#616. Posted by: Gramma Pole Lice at May 28, 2008 2:15 AM

Would you like to meet for a drink sometime???? What is this, "hook up" central??!! Come on mac....enforce some rules around here (unless it's me, of course)

#617. Posted by: meg at May 28, 2008 7:37 AM

@617 - meg
So sorry, i got carried away, really got stuck on the "body more Sawyer than Charlie." line in #573.....

@612 - ealgumby
VT cant be too far, there must be wormholes along the way

@604 - RazzleDazzle
Nice choice, one of my favorites :-)

aren't we glad it's almost Thursday?

#618. Posted by: lostinVT at May 28, 2008 9:03 AM

Andromeda remake lousy...Jin's acting pretty wooden...subplots unnecessary. Made me think that they had movie for four and tried to stretch it for eight.

Ben was not on 815, but his Jedi beat-down stick might've been.

But it makes me wonder why he thought there might be survivors...plane breaks in half a thousand feet in the air and there might be survivors? Really? The only thing I can think of is that Smoky "carried" the plane to the ground to save some special somebody (or somebodies).

BTW - USA The Day After Yesterday has a nice article on Keamy...who'da thunk he did stand-up comedy in college?

#619. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 28, 2008 9:09 AM

I agree, No loose thumbs in Lost! but Sayid can do a number on fingernails. and we probably haven't sen the last of his talents.

Oh now, it wasn't great (How could you compete with the original?) and there was a lot of unnecessary violence but I liked the warning of not using up all our resources just because they are there and someone can make a lot of money. We may need them someday.

I did not turn it off so I guess I didn't think it was that bad. Of course I can watch just about anything. I even liked the movie version of Dune (the first one).

#620. Posted by: berkyo at May 28, 2008 9:42 AM

I don't think we will make it to 700...although I am trying to do my part.

I am getting so excited about tomorrow night. My husband (who does not watch Lost...yeah, I know...) offered to go to an Orioles game so that I can watch it with little/no interruptions. Too bad the O's are off tomorrow night. They need their rest for their 4 game series with Boston...

#621. Posted by: boodle at May 28, 2008 10:28 AM

When we get to 700, save it for me!!!

#622. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 11:33 AM

oh gosh, that Andromeda Strain remake was horrible. I watched the old one when i was a kid, so i was hoping for something a lot better. but geez, that was sad... a lot of piss-poor acting, terrible lighting, horrendous editing, and a lazy script. reminds me of the movie-of-the-week's we used to make at my company... *shudder*. poor Jin...

so who's excited for Lost tomorrow?!?!?!?????? :)

#623. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 28, 2008 12:24 PM

Oh, is there a lost tomorrow? [ducking]

#624. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 28, 2008 12:27 PM

by the way, thanks everyone for the tip about Ben's beatdown stick in the first scene of the pilot! i watched it last night and was quite intrigued! seems to me that jack is expecting to see something when he runs thru the bushes... my wife thinks i'm crazy.

#625. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 28, 2008 12:33 PM

@lostinvt - no problem...I was just kidding anyway...feel free to meet in Vermont...and eat lots of Maple Syrup...yumm! I've never been to that corner of the world. I bet it's night and day from the dried out swampland (yes, I realize this is an oxymoron), bug infested, fire-ridden part of Florida I call home.

Lost tomorrow? Does it start at 9pm, or is the tv schedule playing a game with me??

ilbligtb700 - what does this stand for???

#626. Posted by: meg at May 28, 2008 12:35 PM

if i had to guess, meg, i'd say ilbligtb700 stands for 'i love benjamin linus, i'm going to be 700' which is obviously the big accomplishment of the day.

#627. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 28, 2008 12:45 PM

585/Alaïs_Longthought "I'm sure that was a Freudian slip on iloveblxx's part..."

A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean a mother. [;^)

#628. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 28, 2008 12:46 PM

You are close "IloveBennLinus is going to be 700" is what it means...as long as I am first it doesn't matter! :)

#629. Posted by: meg at May 28, 2008 12:56 PM

541/meg "@bcre8ve - Is your name Carlos??? If so, it's a small world!!!"

No, sorry, no Carlos here.

"It's a small world but I wouldn't want to paint it." - Steven Wright

#630. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 28, 2008 12:57 PM

@626 meg queried:

>Lost tomorrow? Does it start at 9pm, or is the tv schedule playing a game with me??

There's a repeat of the most recent episode (enhanced?) at 8:00, then the two hour finale from 9:00-11:00.

Namaste and good luck,

#631. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 28, 2008 1:24 PM

@593 Doch:

I don't think Walt is in the cascet, but I would prefer it if he doesn't make a big comeback. We still have to see what happened to him, while he was with the others. We know that he must have resisted, at least at first. TPTB stated that he has definitely spent time in the Clockwork Orange room, and that it is a form of punishment for not being a 'good' Other. His flashbacks could be cool, dark and reveal a lot about the Others.

So, any crazy ideas on a possible revelation about Walt in the final?

Here's one. Walt was duplicated, on purpose or not, by the Others/Island/Jacob/His own powers. Walt2 was sent back with his dad, while the real Walt is now an Other by choice, or a captive of the Others, a representitive or 'part' of the Island/Jacob or dead.

---------------------------------------

@Horace's intentions:

I was watching The Man Behind The Curtain again. When Ben is born in the woods (I still wonder what they were doing out there), and Horace Goodspeed and a woman stop to help, there's a quick, knowing, determined glance between Horace and the woman that, to me, suggests that they already know that this is a special child, or at least that there's something going on. Later, he recruits Ben's father for a job on the Island. It seems like an Alpert-thing to do. But he is Dharma. Was it just a coincidence that he brought Ben to the Island? Is that why Ben closed his eyes after the purge? Merely as a sign of respect for bringing him there? That seems logical enough. If he DID intentionally bring Ben there, he would have to be an Other, posing as Dharma. It wouldn't make sense for Dharma(Widmore?) to travel back in time and recruit Ben. Unless they didn't even know they were recuiting him, they were simply manipulated into it by ...someone.


I know i'm just randomly speculating. Sorry if I'm wasting your time.

*** spoiler for purists ***

I checked the cast for the episode, Walt is definitely in there.
Btw, Don Abba is not.

#632. Posted by: Robislost at May 28, 2008 1:53 PM

[interuption]

Attn: ransomjackson

If you check your latest blog entry you'll find a comment awaiting approval.

If you didn't know that already, it's because (I think), TVFodder's comment notifications email is broken - at least I'm not getting any from "House".

I've told mac about it and he wasn't previosly aware of it.

[/interuption]

Resume "Lost"

Enjoy tomorrow's show, y'all.

#633. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 28, 2008 2:09 PM

***** SPOILERS *****
i just read an article that posted today and it reveals that not just one major character from season one dies but three well-knowns die in the final episodes tomorrow
***** SPOILERS *****

#634. Posted by: Lost_Fan_107 at May 28, 2008 2:14 PM

greetings all:

supposedly thursday's 8pm episode is going to included additional footage that wasnt shown the first time, has anyone heard this or read of this being true?? i cant remember where i heard it from.

peace&love

#635. Posted by: tiffani at May 28, 2008 2:38 PM

635. Posted by: tiffani

i think what you may have heard was that there will be additional scenes from the press conference in part 2 or 3 with more q and a. i read that somewhere too, but can't remember if it was here or elsewhere. i definately hope so.

there you go ilovebenjaminlinusxx ...one post closer to your magic 700 :)

#636. Posted by: surefoot at May 28, 2008 3:26 PM

[A brief personal aside]

Cecil,

Thanks for the heads up - and the comment.

I also discovered recently that I had about 10,000 comments in the Junk section. If I wanted a good "meet hot horny chicks in your area" site, a new mortgage, or hair growth products I'd've been royally good to go.

[Thank you for your patience. You may now resume dissecting Lost]

#637. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 28, 2008 3:46 PM

It's okay everyone!!! I'm back from school, so keep posting!!!

I like that "ilbligtb700"!!! Haha.

I'm sooo excited for tomorrow!!!

My mom's going to kill me when she gets the garbage from my room. The's so many candy wrappers in it. Ha...Ha.

I hope I don't miss being 700. It'd be disappointing if a first time poster decides to post and gets to be 700th.

Currently: 637!!! (I think)

#638. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 3:49 PM

So we have 64 entries needed to get to 700...? Okay, I'll do my part.

→ 616. Gramma Pole Lice: "Now who's intruding on MY territory!"

Aww...the grammatical sandbox must be big enough for both of us! Tell you what, you correct all the misuses of the apostrophe & I'll take the they're/there/their & it's/its problems... ; >

"An editor should have a pimp for a brother, so he’d have someone to look up to."
—Gene Fowler

→ 628. bcre8ve: A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean a mother. [;^)

LOL...how very Oedipal of you... ; )

→ 630. bcre8ve: Steven Wright:

In homage to the Swan's blast door map, how 'bout this SW quote:

"I have an existential map. It has 'You are here' written all over it."

#639. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 28, 2008 4:00 PM

THANKS SUREFOOT!!(#636) :)

#640. Posted by: tiffani at May 28, 2008 4:08 PM

I'd like to jump into the sandbox as well, if there's room. I share this passion/obsession with correct grammar.

#641. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 28, 2008 4:36 PM

Ooh ooh, Mr. Kot-tare! Can I do spelling?!?

Is it Thursday yet?

#642. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 28, 2008 4:48 PM

I'm a grammar freak too. I think everyone knows that though, considering the fact that I used to correct people all the time. The littlest mistakes bother me so much. The reason I stopped was because in the middle of the school year I became really lazy so I began to use improper grammar as well, so I thought it would be a bit hypocritical to be annoyed by everyone else's mistakes when I'm probably making even worse ones.

If you look back to my earlier posts, they're so much more proper than my more recent ones.

Honestly, I think school makes me stupider... over time. I think it's because after a certian point, I just get sick of it, and therefore become lazy.

And here I am today...
Lazy, sitting at my computer, waiting to be post #700, eating candy, drinking iced tea, watching LOST. (One of Them, Season 2/HENRY GALE ARRIVES!!!), and occasionaly considering doing my homework but then deciding not to.

I have a mild case of senioritis, (or Junioritis), just not -- Becuase I actually like school, just I want to be a senior, and I want the summer to come... I don't necessarily want to get out of HS and go to College.

The last few weeks are the worst.

Anyway... Sorry for the ramble.

Rats. I just realized that I actually do have quite a lot of homework. Whatever... I'll do it sometime after dinner... "sometime".

#643. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 5:02 PM

ILBL - Only 3 misspellings...

Seriously...can Thursday come soon enough?

Who will be 700?

Ooh the tension is simply delish.

#644. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 28, 2008 5:15 PM

Ooh the tension is simply delish.

→ 644. Posted by: ransomjackson

does anybody remember ed grimley from SNL? "the anticipation...it's making me mental! i couldn't be more excited i must say!"

#645. Posted by: surefoot at May 28, 2008 5:54 PM

632. Posted by: Robislost
"Walt was duplicated"

That's a neat idea. That might explain why he would look like taller, older Walt to John and little Walt in LA to dad.

I don't think he is in the coffin though. Grand mom would come to the funeral. It could be Michael if he doesn't blow up on the boat. He would have to have an assumed name to live in the world. Michael (What is his last name?) would have been on the flight manifest. And Kevin Johnson can't show up either. I don't think anybody would go to Michael's funeral.

Thursday, Thursday,, Thursday!!!!!

#646. Posted by: berkyo at May 28, 2008 6:27 PM

TOMORROW, TOMORROW, I LOVE YOU TOMORROW, YOu'RE ONLY... A DAY AWAY!!!

#647. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 6:42 PM

Gosh, what are we going to do from June til January?!? Hmm... methinks watch the entire series again? And then watch season 4 when it comes out on dvd? Sounds good to me!

51 posts to go!!

#648. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 28, 2008 6:52 PM

Oh Sun'll come out
Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
Against Jin, but
There'll be Sun!

And Hurley will too,
Tomorrow
Clear away the Sawyers,
And the Clairs
Still there's Sun!

When I'm stuck on an island
That's green,
And evil,
I just stick out my chin
And Grin,
And Say,
Oh!

The Sun'll come out
Tomorrow
Along with Aaron, Kate and Jack,
On the morrow,
Plus Sayid...

Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
No John Locke, Tomorrow!
It's just a bare day
A way!

#649. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 28, 2008 6:57 PM

FYI: Damon & Carlton are on Jimmy Kimmel tonight!

#650. Posted by: RazzleDazzle at May 28, 2008 7:01 PM

Helping you along ilblxx, and though grammar is not my strongest suit, i do enjoy good spelling.
Here is a quote from my 16 yo's myspace 'about me':

"I'm The Big **.
Or * *, for short.
I have been called a grammar Nazi, so, spell things right.
I stay up way too late, and am never on time. Ever.
TheBig**5150"

i would agree with all of that.

and - I think Michael is in the coffin, he has finished his job, and is finally allowed to finish *the* job. I don't think Mom and Walt would HAVE to be there, they may not even know....

Closer to 700?

#651. Posted by: lostinVT at May 28, 2008 7:02 PM

1 2 3 it's plain to see
That thursday night is the place for me!
With Sawyer, Locke, and a little Ben too!
LOST at nine o'clock sharp
Oh I can't wait!!....can you?

#652. Posted by: RazzleDazzle at May 28, 2008 7:19 PM

Forgive me if someone has mentioned this already...maybe my mind is making things up...but in the episode where Jack and Kate during a future flash get into an argument over someone Kate was talking to on the phone when Jack came home and had seen when Jack came home early and she wasn't there - didn't she say she was helping Sawyer? Something about she was just helping him, it meant nothing, etc. etc??? Will someone please clarify this for me? Thanks much!

#653. Posted by: lostlover at May 28, 2008 7:22 PM

Now I don’t wish to cause any hard feelings here, but all this positioning and postulating about being the designated Grammar Policeman is somewhat a moot point.

I, humbly, would like to point out - and really old timers will remember and verify my statement - that several seasons ago . .

it was I who initiated the grammar oversight agenda with

the infamous (if I do say so myself)

“GRAMMAR MAKES THE MAN” retort.

Can I get a witness?

However, in all fairness, I am very happy to turn whatever authority
is implied in that, over to the next generation . . . .

So . . . lostinVT, DriveShaft, ilovebenjaminlinusxx, ransomjackson, Gramma Pole Lice, and Alaïs_Longthought . . .

I suggest “Kate Turabian Manuals” at Dawn.

Winner takes all.

#654. Posted by: davidrh at May 28, 2008 7:24 PM

Robislost asks "So, any crazy ideas on a possible revelation about Walt in the final?"

try this one on for size...

Michael is an excellent candidate to be the person in the coffin, and if so, it is because he was killed- either directly or indirectly- by Walt.

How do I know that?

Case A: Ben is "special". Ben is approached by Richard Alpert as a boy and passes his initial evaluation, based on being able to see the ghost of his mother. Ben is told he is not ready, but must wait to join the Others.

When Ben is a man, the others come for him. His initiation into their circle is the Purge of the Dharma group, which includes the direct killing of his father.

Case B: Locke is "special". He is evaluated by Alpert as a boy, but is not ready to join the others. In season 3, when the Others offer him an opportuntiy to join their group, they take him to the ancient ruins, where his initiation ceremony is..to kill his father.

After convincing Sawyer to do just that, Locke is accepted into the group, a fact Ben finds so threatening he attempts to kill Locke (who, incidentally, is saved by a vision of Walt).

Case C: Walt is special. Walt is taken by force by the Others for evaluation- but they do not attempt to keep him, since he is a child, and is not ready for his role with them.

Walt is returned to Michael as part of a brokered deal to gain Ben's freedom from the hatch (note that most of Walt's time spent with the Others occurs while Ben is in captivity- based on everything else we've seen, Alpert is probably leading Walt's evaluation during this time).

When Walt is ready, he will be called back to the island, but his price of intitiation will be the death of Michael.

At this point, the producers have a "real world" problem- the time sequence of the show (100 days) does not correspond with viewer time (4 years). The actor playing Walt is continuing to grow, but in Lost time, he would still be the same boy.

Solution: flash forwards. By placing the events of the flash forwards several years ahead, they have a built in explanation for Walt's growth, as well as for his return back to the plot. The writers even built into the flash forwards a scene of Jack reading a baseball story in 2007, just to clearly set the stage that at least three years will pass between the departure from the island and the return to the island.

potential Case D: many have speculated that Aaron may be "special". Certainly it was in the Others plans to kidnap him for evaluation, as they did with all of the other children (note only Walt was released, for reasons explained earlier). Alpert admitted to Locke that the whole fertility issue is unimportant to the Others- he describes it as a "novelty", and that for unknown (to the viewers) reasons, it is an obsession only of Ben's and not the Other's main objective.

If Aaron is indeed special, and if Jack would raise him as his surrogate father, it would potentially mean a grown Aaron would have to cause Jack's death- therefore the warnings to Jack that "he is not meant to raise him".

If I'm right about this, I will permanently change my posting name to "Sha-Mizled".

#655. Posted by: Mizzed at May 28, 2008 7:27 PM

Interesting proposal, David. I'm not quite sure I'm up to such a grand challenge as you've suggested.

However, I WILL enter into a battle of wits for a chance at the title... inconceivable!

#656. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 28, 2008 7:49 PM

I'm up for the "challenege".

It's obvious that it is I who will win... we might as well just crown me as the winner instead of going through the experience of brutal defeat.

So what do you mean, "winner gets all"? -- What is this "all" you speak of?

#657. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 7:58 PM

Come on! Haven't figured it out yet?

The casket has in it, the very individual that was being hunted in FF world by Sayid & Ben.

The casket contains "The Economist"

AND

'The Economist' is

Richard H Alpert.

#658. Posted by: DocH at May 28, 2008 8:07 PM

→ 654. Posted by: davidrh

I just have to jump in on this whole grammar thing. While davidrh may have started the dialog a while ago, this season featured a bunch of frequent-lurkers-new-posters submitting stuff with lots of typos. Once the "regulars" started pointing that out, I cited the Eats, Shoots and Leaves item. And that led to the whole panda thread. You see, I, too, am a grammar freak.

While I personally am not up to the caliber of wit expressed here, I look forward to see who answers davidrh's challenge and will happily cast my vote.

#659. Posted by: lovelost at May 28, 2008 8:13 PM

Awfully calm around here... meaning 'vacc' has not posted in FIVE days! What is it, pre-game jitters? Less than 24 hours until vacc's first big league start - 'the Show'. I can just imagine the pep talks & coaching from Mac over the past few days. "Come on kid... you can do it... just don't pull a Nuke LaLoosh".

#660. Posted by: DocH at May 28, 2008 8:20 PM

@ lovelost
You said the "Eats Shoots and Leaves" thing because of me!!! That was AWESOME!That was seriously my favorite grammar joke of ALL TIME.

That was said in the thread of the episode before "Ji Yeon" which I believe was "The Economist". I remember that because in "Ji Yeon" when I saw the panda, that was the first thing I thought of! I thought that was such a coincidence.

That was when I was correcting everyone's mistakes because they were bothering me. A few episodes later, I gave it up. (Back to the lazy thing) haha.

By the way, Vacc is going to do great. I'd be pretty nervous right now if I were him. -- But I doubt he is.

WE'LL MISS YOU MAC!!!

#661. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 8:31 PM

(from the Random Topic thread ...)
@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/78
"I accidently just drew on my face with my pen that I thought was closed."

Just doing my part for the 700 here ...

I must say, that comment was certainly "random," yet true to form! I'm quite certain you are completely unaware of the joy you bring (me at least) with your regular stream-of-consciousness non sequiturs ... how DO you get your right-brain wired directly to your typing fingers like that?! ;)

BTW ... what did you haphazardly happen to draw? If it looks anything like the blast door diagram, don't let berkyo know, or you'll never hear the end of it! ;) (again)

#662. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 9:01 PM

Helping the drive to 700. A few more things re: my Walt must kill Michael theory:

1. It explains why Michael has been invincible to this point. The act must be done by Walt, not by Michael, Keamy, etc.

2. It explains why Michael went gonzo and killed Libby and Ana Lucia. The death of the father has to be retribution, rather than the spilling of innocent blood. See: Ben (abusive, drunken father) and Locke (con man father responsible for so much misery).

3. It explains why Locke's father did not die in the car crash in Tallahassee. Because it was destiny that Locke be responsible for his death, there was a major "course correction" that transported him to the island. Note that Ben says to Locke "we didn't bring him here- you did".

4. Who has seen spirits/ghosts? While many characters on the show have had dreams and visions, the only characters so far who have actually seen real manifestations on the island have blood on their hands, either through their direct action or metaphorically:

Jack, Eko, Kate, Ben, Locke and Michael. The only exception- Hurley, but then there is always something different going on with Hurley, something we really have only glimpsed so far....

#663. Posted by: Mizzed at May 28, 2008 9:16 PM

@ ealgumby - 662
Haha, yes it seems I am completely unaware.

You know how when someone stares at a cloud at tries to "see something in it". (You know what I mean)... well imagine me looking at the pen mark on my face as if it was a cloud... I would have to say it looks a bit like a hippo.

From the same perspective, I guess hippos kind of look like blast door maps as well.

I guess you can say that it's "up for interpretation"... But I'd say it looks like a hippo.

I was wondering why it felt like the pen was "rolling" on my face instead of "scratching".

#664. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 9:19 PM

Just wanting do my part for ilblxx 700....

I'm totally planning to rewatch the first 3 seasons during the next few months. I had time last night and wanted to start watching season 1, but didn't want to until season 3 is over. I didn't want to confuse myself. That happens easily and I'm surprised I've been able to follow LOST (and this blog!) for as long as I have.

Counting the minutes...glad I'm not the only one....

And please don't pick out my errors. ;)

#665. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 28, 2008 9:24 PM

666!

#666. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 9:27 PM

Just had to get that in there! Our company keeps track of its employess on a UNIX system, with UIDs (user IDs), beginning at 350 when the company was started, an incrementing with each new employee. You guessed it ... my UID is 666!

I have delivered UNIX software with my UID attached as owner, and several customers have commented (okay, bitched) about problems (not TOO many!) by referring to my software as "code of the beast" or "Satan's Software." I know, IT geek humor ...

#667. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 9:33 PM

Oh, and not only that, but when my most recent customer (NOAA) added individual user accounts to their UNIX workstations for all government employees and contractors, my UID fell out AGAIN as 666! All true ... I am UID 666 on not only my company's database, but NOAA's at the NSOF complex.

Hmmm ... maybe I should be worried ...

#668. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 9:41 PM

I have a feeling that this is going "too quickly" or "not quickly enough".

Soon the posts will slow down and I will decide to go to sleep. Then I will wake up for school tomorrow and wonder if I still have the chance to be 700. Then I will come home (or peek at school) and be satisfied or disappointed.

At this rate... I believe this may result in disappointment.

School screws up everything!!!

I appreciate everyone trying to speed it up!!! I must get it!!!

#669. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 9:46 PM

649. Posted by Cecil Rose
Very nice. Maybe it won't be such a hard knock life tomorrow night when Lost returns.

653. Posted by lostlover
I thought I heard her say Sawyer on my 2nd watching.

654. Posted by: davidrh
I'd like to think I can see and hear good grammar - that's my two sense.

663. Posted by: Mizzed Re: Walt killing Michael
Certainly fits a with the show's father issues theme.

And in honor of iloveben's stream of consciousness, I'm going to throw out some "evergreen" ideas I never posted. I'll post them separately -- for easier reading, of course, not to gin up the movement toward 700 or anything.

#670. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 28, 2008 9:54 PM

School screws up everything!!!
ilovebenjaminlinusxx


Oh no, my dear . . .

SCHOOL MAKES THE WOMAN!


#671. Posted by: davidrh at May 28, 2008 9:57 PM

@660 DocH : No pre-game jitters - as long as my eyeballs don't jam I can keep breathing. Yup, got the mac pep talk - he said do whatever is necessary not to disappoint boozy!

I♥Ben : If we're in danger of not making it to 700 posts, I could just wait an extra day or two to post the recap for the season finale.

#672. Posted by: vacc at May 28, 2008 10:00 PM

Ben's Stash (the money kind, that is):

Did anyone ever theorize about how Ben got all that cash? How about heroin drug-running? Would tie Eko/Yemi story to the island and wouldn't seem to be in opposition to Ben's morals/ethics during a time of war. I've always had a sense there was more to Eko's story than we've seen so far.

Any other ideas? Time-traveling lottery-playing? Money from Mr. Paik? He's really Ben Bernanke??

#673. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 28, 2008 10:03 PM

→ 658. DocH said:

The casket contains "The Economist"
AND
'The Economist' is
Richard H Alpert.


interesting... um... why would Jack go to Richard's "funeral"? they've never met until just now... i wouldn't think they're that close...

doin my part ilblxx! :)

#674. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 28, 2008 10:07 PM

Haven't worked out all the kinks on this one, but what if the father issues we're considering are really GRANDFATHER issues? Here's one possible end-game scenario of the competing grandpas trying to claim the island:

1. Christian Shephard via Aaron
2. Paik via Sun's baby
3. Alpert via Locke (grandpa?)
4. Ben via Alex's baby (would-be grandpa, remember she looked preggers, so now that she's dead the rules changed)
5. Widmore via Des/Penny baby??
6. Walt's grandpa, whoever that is

Needs work, just brainstorming. Don't know where Yaba D'Abaddon fits in yet.

#675. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 28, 2008 10:12 PM

@vacc/672
"I♥Ben : If we're in danger of not making it to 700 posts, I could just wait an extra day or two to post the recap for the season finale."

I have a feeling it won't be a problem!

#676. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 10:14 PM

OK, one last thought:

Locke says he is a man of faith. But he is also a man of defiance, with his "Don't tell me what I can't do" attitude. So which one will win out in the end?

#677. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 28, 2008 10:17 PM

@vacc/672
"I♥Ben : If we're in danger of not making it to 700 posts, I could just wait an extra day or two to post the recap for the season finale."

And very funny! ... of course, you know that within minutes, your recap will already be "too late" coming! You need to get some subconscious-mind (unconscious?) typing pointers from ILBxx to help speed you along!

#678. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 10:19 PM

@Scooby-Dude/677
"Locke says he is a man of faith. But he is also a man of defiance, with his "Don't tell me what I can't do" attitude. So which one will win out in the end?"

Are they not one and the same?

#679. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 10:22 PM

@ davidrh - 671
Yeah but junior year sucks. I'm one of those overachievers that feel sad over a 99 and love school. But really, this year sucks. I'd much rather concentrate on LOST. =]

@ Vacc - 672
NOOO!!! Haha. We must get 700 tonight!!! We're soo close!!!

Just 25 more to go!!!

(That kind of looks like June 25th... I wish).

Anyway... that's an interesting thing that Scooby-Dude pointed out. Richard being Locke's grandpa... Did anyone think of that before? We're all thinking that he might be Locke's dad, but I don't recall anyone ever saying that he's his grandpa. I think that could be possible.

Unfortunately, I may have to go to sleep soon. Will you try to save #700 for me tomorrow? I'll try to go on during school.

I have a feeling we won't get 25 in the next hour or so. =[ (sad smiley)

#680. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 10:24 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/664
"I'd say it looks like a hippo."

Hmmm, the hippopotamus, or "river horse," from the Greek. Perhaps you are channeling the key to tomorrow's epi!

Well, we've had a horse on Lost ... what about a river? Does that stream through the woods count as a river? If there's a "real" river involved tomorrow night in some way, then you and your pen must be consulted again for future plot guidance!

How many more ILB?

#681. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 10:27 PM

Hi guys!

To address a few loose ends:

1. I'm not nearly as strict as I was back in the day. This is partially due to decreased energy from parenthood, but likely more influenced by not taking myself too seriously. Besides, all the regulars have earned their stripes, so I don't worry about things around here too much. You're all good eggs.

2. I *hope* I'll be able to drop in after tomorrow's finale (I anticipate that'll be the case, but since I'll be away from Fodder Headquarters, I'm not entirely sure). Nonetheless, I'll certainly be around in the days and weeks to come.

3. Vacc shouldn't be nervous because Vacc already kicks butt.

4. @ilovebenjaminlinusxx: Good luck with your Quest for 700!

#682. Posted by: mac at May 28, 2008 10:32 PM

@Skipper/595
"The body of Jo ~*~ antham of
New York was discovered shortly after 4
a.m. in the ~*~ of Grand
Avenue."

Is "Antham" supposed to be the last name of the person in the coffin? Googled "antham" and get a lot of southern Indian/Sri Lankan refs ... does that make any sense? "Antham" is a Telugu word, translated to Hindi as "Drohi," which translated into English means "a branch" or ... get this ... "a small box." Does "small box" have anything to do with the (as many have commented) small size of the coffin?

#683. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 10:38 PM

666 Posted by: ealgumby

why you little devil you!

#684. Posted by: surefoot at May 28, 2008 10:40 PM

@ealgumby:

Man of Faith/Man of Defiance:
Are they not one and the same?

Certainly not mutually exclusive and maybe connected. Will his faith that there's something larger than himself dictate his actions, or will his defiant belief in himself and his own judgment (and the resultant impulsivity) have dire consequences?

#685. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 28, 2008 10:42 PM

Found a review of movie Antham (Drohi) from 1993 ...

"the film's plot concerns a cold-blooded professional hitman who falls in love with an unsuspecting innocent and is soon forced to confront his reawakened sense of humanity."

Sayid anyone?

#686. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 10:43 PM

Scooby-Dude-

I think someone (perhaps you?) speculated on this..oh, a few hundred posts ago..but there is some thought that all of the biblical names used in Lost indicate some sort of shared paternity, i.e. that they all may be related in some way to Jacob, or possibly to Jacob's father, given that the biblical Jacob stole his twin brother's birthright (the island?)

One of the biblical Jacob's sons was Benjamin, who's mother died in childbirth. As an adult, Benjamin's tribe struggled with infertility issues, forcing them to steal other tribe's women and children.

In the bible, Jacob refers to God as a "shepherd", and two of Jacob's g-g-grandchildren were Moses and Aaron. You could make a strong case that Moses makes for a strong allegory for Jack's character (the angry shepherd who leads but is unable to communicate with his flock), and of course we all know about Aaron.

Plus Jacob's father was Isaac, of the famous sacrifice story of Abraham and Isaac where Abraham had to prove his faith by killing his own flesh and blood- this ties in neatly with my Walt kills Michael theory.

It also adds some additional ammo to those who believe that Locke and Ben may in fact be half-brothers via Emily, playing out a Cain-Abel type of story, each trying to be the most favored of God (i.e. "The Father").

#687. Posted by: Mizzed at May 28, 2008 10:44 PM

@Scooby-Dude/685
"Certainly not mutually exclusive and maybe connected. Will his faith that there's something larger than himself dictate his actions, or will his defiant belief in himself and his own judgment (and the resultant impulsivity) have dire consequences?"

I was thinking more in terms of his "Don't tell me what I can't do" attitude being a confirmation of his "calling" to do "something important" as a man of faith, in the face of "rational" thought/advice to do otherwise ... hence his trip to Australia for the "walk-about" ... not very rational, yet VERY dependent upon faith that it would come true!

#688. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 10:48 PM

Hey ILBxx ... are you still out there?

It's getting close!

#689. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 10:51 PM

@ Mizzed,

You might remember that Abraham never actually KILLED his son. It was a test.

But i do like your connections.

#690. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 28, 2008 10:52 PM

@Mizzed/687
"It also adds some additional ammo to those who believe that Locke and Ben may in fact be half-brothers via Emily, playing out a Cain-Abel type of story, each trying to be the most favored of God (i.e. 'The Father')."

And how does this play out if Widmore is the father?

#691. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 10:55 PM

→ 683. Posted by: ealgumby

"anthem" could be the person's last name or part of the last name.... I'm not sure. good work investigating that though.

#692. Posted by: Skipper at May 28, 2008 10:56 PM

Nice! 13 more to go!!! I think we can actually do it by the time I go to sleep!!! Now I'm happy! =]

@ ealgumby - 681
I believe my pen is quite "special". He can take Walt, any time, any place.

I guess you can say it lookED like a river... I don't know anymore. I washed it off and then I took a shower.

So I looked outside, and it still looked kind of light. I thought it was because of daylight savings and all that stuff, but then I realized the street light was on.

@ mac - 682
1. I'm a "good egg". Speaking of chocolate... I'm in the mood for some. I guess an Apollo Bar will do -- I've never actually seen a "Wonka Bar" before.

2. Yes, and share your thoughts! I don't believe you've ever played our role before... fill in the holes that Vacc leaves empty!

3. Vacc does kick butt. But you kick bigger butt. (lmfaolacwis).

4. Thanks!!! It's getting there!!! -- And thanks for your addition. Haha.

@ ealgumby - 683
""Antham" is a Telugu word, translated to Hindi as "Drohi," which translated into English means "a branch" or ... get this ... "a small box.""

Uh... Drohi? Drohi... I don't really use that word whem I speak Hindi often. I have another word for branch. Unless it's the same word but I think it's different because I've been saying it wrong all my life... because that's definitely possible. I've done that before.

Actually, maybe it is. Now I'm confused.

I didn't know what a laddle was until about 2 years ago. (English IS my first language).

Yeah, my dad said it was. Anyway... he also said it was a movie. Which I just realized others pointed out.

Wow... I suck.

Mizzed - interesting biblical observations. Unfortunately I know very little about the bible, so I can't add.

Rats.

#693. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 11:06 PM

Mizzed:

My only biblical speculation was a while back that Aaron, the biblical emissary of Moses, could be the Lostical emissary of Ben. But these writers are tricky -- biblical names, philospher names, literary names -- and I thought I caught mention of the Emily thing on the enhanced Lost rebroadcast bubble that may or may not be canon.

→ 688. Posted by: ealgumby re Locke's faith in his calling:

I tend to agree that his defiance is part of his faith/calling. Someone had an interesting comment earlier that he is a tragic figure in that his faith always gets shattered and then one final shattering of his faith will turn him evil in the comic book sense. I think I read something like that here. It'll be interesting to see. Or the suggestion someone made that both science and faith will both be needed.

#694. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 28, 2008 11:09 PM

As a complete aside ... the female lead in the Telugu film "Antham," Urmila Matondkar, is quite hot!

Getting closer to 700!

#695. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 11:10 PM

@ ealgumby - 689
Yeah, I'm still here. I'm also still confused about the light outside. I guess the moon is bright too.

Oh wait, there's a second street light.

I know this sounds really emo but I usually keep my blinds closed. I don't like light (headache problem). But today I had to open my window because my room was really hot and it was kind of cool outside... So my dad made me open it.

I apparently need to get out more.

#696. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 11:11 PM

SLOW DOWN EVERYONE. I DON'T WANNA LOSE IT BY ACCIDENT!!!

700 yet????????

This is so intense!!!

#697. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 11:14 PM

Well, since we have Mac's blessing...

GO PENS!!!!!!!!!!! WHOOO-HOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

@Mizzed/655/663: I am very intrigued by your rational for Michael in the coffin. If the writers used his death to further the theme of father/son discord and patricide as the key to Walt's island destiny, it would certainly make the revelation of Michael in the coffin less anti-climatic.

But, on the other hand, Walt killing his father doesn't "ring true" on an emotional level for me. There is almost a progression of evil to innocence with the "special" ones: Ben being closet to evil, Locke being ambivalent and weak, Walt as good-hearted, and Aaron representing true innocence.

But if it will enable you to become "Sha-Mizled," I'm all for it. I really have to start referencing the Urban Dictionary more often.

#698. Posted by: Clementine at May 28, 2008 11:14 PM

It's so hard to type my name a bagillion times!!! Now I know how all of you feel!

700?!?!?!?!?!??!

#699. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 11:15 PM

I think I'm going to make myself lose it by trying not to lose it... if that made sense. =/

Gosh it takes so long to post!!!

#700. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 11:16 PM

@Clementine/698
"Michael in the coffin less anti-climatic."

Alaïs_Longthought ... any comments? ;)

PS: Now you can go to bed happy, ILBxx! ...

#701. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 11:18 PM

I GOT IT I GOT IT!!!! AHHH!!!!!

Boodle didn't think we'd make it to 700!!! BUT WE DID!!!

THANKS EVERYONE!!!

ilbligtb700!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#702. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 11:19 PM

→ 693. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
Rats.

I was about to post this:
You know it's the year of the rat, don't you?!

But then I hit refresh instead. Congrats on 700!

#703. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 28, 2008 11:20 PM

EALGUMBY - What if you accidently stole it from me?!?!?!?! Just kidding, I know your intentions were good.

Actually, I just realized you slowed down on that one, and you posted it after I got 700. THANKS!!!

And yes, I will indeed go to bed happy.

You said Urmila is HOT?!?! Wow. I remember thinking she was scary when I was a kid. You should watch "Kaun". I watched that when I was 8 years old... Scarred me for life.

But that was actually a pretty good movie. I think that was the beginning of my respect for genius serial killers.

Anyway... I have no idea why I'm discussing bollywood with you at the moment... I don't even know if you know what the hell I'm talking about. Haha.

I think I might go to sleep soon.

Tomorrow is going to be a GOOD day. I can't wait. Only 30 minutes till Thursday!!!

#704. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2008 11:30 PM

→ 690. Posted by: DriveShaft

You might remember that Abraham never actually KILLED his son. It was a test.
**********

That's true, but there is a lot of disagreement among biblical scholars as to the original translation of the Abraham-Isaac story. Some believe that in the original text, Abraham did in fact kill and/or wound Isaac, and that the story was later changed to 1) show that God is merciful and 2) reaffirm that human sacrifice was unacceptable. The Abraham story takes place early in the bible, all Old testament sacrifices after this are clearly described as animal sacrifices.

This was the progression in most ancient societies where human sacrifice gradually was replaced by animal sacrifices as moral laws grew up that put greater stock in the value of human life.

If there is a tradition of human sacrifice on that island, perhaps it indicates roots to an ancient civilization, perhaps tying in with the 4-toed statue, the ruins, and perhaps the still to be seen temple.

BTW, I am neither a biblical scholar nor do I play one on tv.

#705. Posted by: Mizzed at May 28, 2008 11:39 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/704
"Anyway... I have no idea why I'm discussing bollywood with you at the moment... I don't even know if you know what the hell I'm talking about. Haha."

Ah, yeah, I do! Aishwarya Rai? mmmm ... and Amitabh Bachchan is the shizzle (did I REALLY just say that?). Have seen more Bollywood movies than you could probably ever imagine ... my ex-GF was Indian (UP) ...

#706. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 11:39 PM

@Mizzed/705
"BTW, I am neither a biblical scholar nor do I play one on tv."

But you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

#707. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 11:44 PM

@DriveShaft/690
"You might remember that Abraham never actually KILLED his son. It was a test."

@Mizzed/705
"That's true, but there is a lot of disagreement among biblical scholars as to the original translation of the Abraham-Isaac story. Some believe that in the original text, Abraham did in fact kill and/or wound Isaac"

With no disrespect intended (just for fun) ... maybe Sawyer was sent back in time from the island, and killed Isaac for Abraham!

#708. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2008 11:54 PM

my final comment of the evening...

i can't remember if it was mac or another poster, but someone mentioned that the press conference scene marks the first time they've used Hawaii for Hawaii... which isn't quite true. it was used as hawaii for Jack's wedding in season 1!

Goodnight!

#709. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 29, 2008 1:01 AM

Holy crappola!

Did not get a chance to keep up since last week, and all sorts of nonsense starts flying around.

Did not (actually - could not) read everything - skimmedy-skimmed - but what up with this place becoming a romantic chat line?

Anyhoots....

@492. Posted by: vacc

re: Ben $$ to Sun for the win

I'm blanking here, but has there ever been a Ben-Sun scene? I'm sure there have been group ones, but I just can't recall them ever ever exchanging words of any sorts. Anyone?

And - that's all I got!

Vacc - good luck with taking notes and posting. Remember - we expect great things (no pressure)!!!

#710. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2008 1:07 AM

|I suggest “Kate Turabian Manuals” at
|Dawn.
|
|Winner takes all.
|
|654. Posted by: davidrh at May 28,
|2008 7:24 PM

And just what do you have against Dawn?

Or perhaps you meant "dawn" - the time when the sun rises above the horizon.

I reject your proposition, and suggest, instead, a challenge to correctly punctuate "Finnigan's Wake", also correcting all grammar errors, at a more civilized hour such as 4:00PM, after tea and scones.

Your seconds may contact mine.

#711. Posted by: Gramma Pole Lice at May 29, 2008 2:11 AM

==============O

@672 vacc hypothesized:

>II think I'm going to make myself lose it by trying not to lose it... if that made sense. =/

>Gosh it takes so long to post!!!

Congratulations on achieving your objective. Now get that beauty sleep and wake up refreshed for a three hour “Lost” orgy.

BTW, Cuze and Lindelof on Jimmy Kimmel live was a repeat and offered no new information – in fact not much information of any kind.

==============O

#712. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 2:23 AM

The blog or my browser bent, folded, and spindled that last post, which was supposed to be responses to two different people. Not that Vacc also doesn't nee his beauty sleep.

Let's try this again:

==============O

@672 vacc hypothesized:

>II think I'm going to make myself lose it by trying not to lose it... if that made sense. =/

Sounds very Zen.

Congratulations on achieving your objective. Now get that beauty sleep and wake up refreshed for a three hour “Lost” orgy.

BTW, Cuze and Lindelof on Jimmy Kimmel live was a repeat and offered no new information – in fact not much information of any kind.

==============O

#713. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 2:31 AM

Dang, did it again, I'm going to try this one from work, tomorrow. Good night, everybody, and Namaste.

#714. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 2:36 AM

Wait, wait, I think I've got this figured out. You should see two resomses this time (and I do hope you're getting your beauty sleep, too, Vacc):

-This time for sure, Rocky -

==============O

@672 vacc hypothesized:

>I(heart)Ben : If we're in danger of not making it to 700 posts, I could just wait an extra day or two to post the recap for the season finale.

Have a death-wish do we?

And anyway, as we can see, it wasn’t necessary.

==============O

@700!! ilovebenjaminlinusxx exulted:

>I think I'm going to make myself lose it by trying not to lose it... if that made sense.

>Gosh it takes so long to post!!!

Congratulations on achieving your objective. Now get that beauty sleep and wake up refreshed for a three hour “Lost” orgy.

BTW, Cuze and Lindelof on Jimmy Kimmel live was a repeat and offered no new information – in fact not much information of any kind.

==============O

#715. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 2:44 AM

The Island travels thru time. The others are the original inhabitants. The Island is a living thing. That is why the Oceanic 6 were so stunned because they will probably see the island disappear with friends on it. That is also why whitmore wants it intact, the statue with 4 toes, the ship in the jungle, Mr Ecko brother's plane. The Island moves around the world and thru time. Could have been Atlantis?

#716. Posted by: Leebo4412 at May 29, 2008 3:12 AM

I'm sorry Cecil, I just got here . . . Could you repeat that please? . . .

#717. Posted by: davidrh at May 29, 2008 7:32 AM

I just noticed this morning that the McSweeneys’ Literary Journal website is also stuck on LOST: Check out the front page at www(dot)mcsweeneys(dot)net for “The Opening Act from the Original Unused Teleplay of Lost’s Pilot Episode” by Andrew Bridgman.

#718. Posted by: davidrh at May 29, 2008 8:13 AM

649. Posted by: Cecil Rose -Tomorrow

That was great!!! 8-)

#719. Posted by: berkyo at May 29, 2008 8:17 AM

655. Posted by: Mizzed
This is interesting and it does give a reason for all the father issue. And taller, older Walt. But why do they need to get rid of their fathers?

662. Posted by: ealgumby
Hey. the Blast door was the most AWESOMEST thing I have ever seen. 8-)
I think it is the Rosetta Stone. If we could only understand it, we would know all. Or mostly all.

#720. Posted by: berkyo at May 29, 2008 8:38 AM

good morning all, i got as far as post #651 this morning, got a hair appointment, so if it was already mentioned my bad.

i was getting ready this morning and i definitely heard the lost promo on tv saying the 8pm episode is going to include additional, new footage. yesterday i wasnt sure but today i am. not sure if anyone will be able to tell which parts are new or if it will make any difference in what we already know.

peace&love to all!!

#721. Posted by: tiffani at May 29, 2008 8:59 AM

@719 berkyo applauded:

>@649. Posted by: Cecil Rose -Tomorrow

>That was great!!! 8-)

Inspired by ILBLXXX's post, and done in a white flash - my filk background showing through. Wonder if she's angling for #800 now?

#722. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 9:10 AM

Congrats ILBLxx!!!
I waited up as long as I could to see if you’d get 700, but I crashed before you made it. I had to check it out on my blackberry first thing this morning, while driving to work. Don’t worry, I didn’t crash….just some minor swerving. For your reward, I’m making that Tunisian dinner I promised you and eating it on your behalf while I watch Lost tonight.

@ealgumby
Not sure if you asked about “anthem” as a filler topic or if you’re really interested, but if you are, it was mentioned by the producers that the obituary is going to be rewritten, so there’s no need to analyze at this point.

@Mizzed/655/663
Interesting theory about who’s in the coffin. I like it.

#723. Posted by: Skipper at May 29, 2008 9:13 AM

YAY ilblxx!!

Just a little bit longer till 7pm (my time)! I thought these past two weeks would never pass!

#724. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 29, 2008 9:34 AM

re: Ben's stick on plane/time travel

I have never liked the idea of time travel in the show. It creates to many paradox situations. By trying to explain it as only consciousness being teleported does not cure why physical Ben is suddenly in the desert.

Or if a time traveling duplicate Ben was on 815 when it crashed, would that event adversely impact the original island time Ben? Example, Ben's sudden tumor weeks before the crash is related to his duplicate time traveling body being killed. That leads to the problem of the timeline. Time traveling Ben dies but the physical plane crashes weeks later on the island (like the Daniel rocket experiment variance)?

#725. Posted by: welh at May 29, 2008 10:28 AM

I♥Ben :Congrats on being 700!! (Hey, that would also make a great Richard Alpert Birthday Card!)

@660 / DocH said : >> 'vacc' has not posted in FIVE days!

Actually I've been staying off this or any LOST related sites all week - as a defense against accidental viewing of spoilers.

Even though none of us "good eggs" would post reveals here, there's always a chance that some "bad egg" posts some "theory" that's really based on inside scoop. And that person could try to be CLEVER by posting under the name of someone we all know and love - perhaps even LAFFO!

Still, I admit that I've been skimming through posts from those regulars I've come to trust and rely on to get me through those long LOST-less days.

#726. Posted by: vacc at May 29, 2008 11:40 AM

Is anybody else making DHARMA FISH BISCUITS for tonight's big finale?

Here's a link to the recipe I use - tinyurl.com/5zdqhl

Here's a template you can print and use to make that perfect Dharma Fish Biscuit. tinyurl.com/5982ln

Here's a picture of me and my fish biscuits from the night of the Season Four opener -
tinyurl.com/598hn6

#727. Posted by: vacc at May 29, 2008 11:42 AM

@welh 725
I like the time travel idea, and your post about island time Ben makes complete sense to me...
And maybe just maybe Ben is having Said kill off everyone in the flash forwards to bring body parts back to preserve original island time Ben.....
or maybe not.....

Maybe I am having lost withdrawls...

Maybe 700+ more post would get me through until 8pm....

Maybe I need to go make DHARMA FISH BISCUITS!!! yea!!

#728. Posted by: bean116 at May 29, 2008 12:19 PM

@727 vacc gourmandized:

>Here's a picture of me and my fish biscuits from the night of the Season Four opener -

>tinyurl.com/598hn6

That picture was really tiny and grainy if blown up. I like your blog.

So is brother Eric anyone we know here?

#729. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 12:53 PM

I must say, reading through the posts has become more of a chore, lately. I'm not here to read about grammar competitions, who's hot and who's not, awkward flirting **** and such. Reaching 700, come on really? Take a second to think about the thousands of people who scan this topic for compelling Lost-related info and theories. Especially long time posters should be wiser and not spam this topic. The annoying thing is that most of you do have interesting things to say about the show. So I end up reading through most of the crap too. Sorry if I'm harsh, I'm not saying you're crap. I can be the same. But I use MSN for that.

And it's not good for Mac's rep either, so can we agree to cut down on the off topic talk? Thankee Sai.

#730. Posted by: Robislost at May 29, 2008 12:56 PM

@702 Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Just signed on a few minutes ago since yesterday evening and saw 730+ posts. Congrats to ILBLxx and everyone...we did it!!

Really eager now for tonight and looking forward to vacc's enlightening recap!!!!

#731. Posted by: boodle at May 29, 2008 1:26 PM

@731 Posted by: boodle

Ooops...my post made it 730+. My bad!

#732. Posted by: boodle at May 29, 2008 1:29 PM

Well now, that's exactly why I like this blog. Much like a Sunday family dinner everyone is free to express an opinion, rant, or steer the conversation in a completely dissociated direction. A healthy ration of fecal matter is delivered whenever required, and all is warm and fuzzy again. And like a sulky teen-ager, if the grown-up table delves too long or too deeply into non sequitors, everyone is free to go up to their room, plug in the ear buds, and tune out the boring dribbity drab.

This seems to happen pretty darn regularly Wednesday into Thursday just before the show hits the airwaves. Folks gettin' antsy, short-tempered, generally pissy.

My advice?

Slam four large alcoholic drinks of choice, stuff your bong with your favorite cannaboid, and meeeeellllloooooowwww.

Trust me - we'll get back on topic soon enough and then the show is over until next year.

You wanna bitch about something...bitch about that.

#733. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 29, 2008 1:32 PM

@ransomjackson > and all is warm and fuzzy again

well said, we all need some warm and fuzzy. Perfection is borrrring.

unhappy bloggers refer back to
#436...(Our Darling Clementine)

#734. Posted by: bean116 at May 29, 2008 2:14 PM

@733 Ransomjackson:

So why does it have to be in this topic? Because it's easier if you don't have to switch between topics to read all the stuff that you want to read? That's kind of selfish, isn't it?

#735. Posted by: Robislost at May 29, 2008 2:19 PM

3730 Robislost fretted:

>And it's not good for Mac's rep either, so can we agree to cut down on the off topic talk? Thankee Sai.

Or we could mosey over to the "Random Topics '08" area, which was created expressly for this purpose.

So who dies tonight?

My guess: Michael

And maybe a few more red shirts.

No spoiler, no inside knowledge, just my educated guess.

#736. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 2:23 PM

robislost,

Yeah, I get your point, but I think it's more lazy than selfish. We've beaten Kate's horse into a bloody mess and need our fix - DAMN YOU DARLTON!!

I also think people get frustrated with the off-topic stuff when the time between shows gets too long. It just shows to go ya how special this stupid show is that so many folks get so worked up over it. I've seen a helluva lot of TV in my time and lemme tell ya shows like this don't come along too often when people allow themselves to get so very wrapped up in the minutia of the thing.

Try to enjoy the ride - it ain't a-gonna last long.

It's one of those things like when people tell you to relax or smile...does that ever work?

And then when it's over it'll be like the end of Truman Show where we turn to each other and say, "What else is on?"

#737. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 29, 2008 2:40 PM

re: off-topic

It's a tricky confusing scenario - much like an episode of Lost! ;)

I've both enjoyed and been annoyed by it at different intervals.

When you have the time, and you are constantly keeping up, it is lots of fun to enjoy mindless banter with peeps here.

Unfortunately, when real life takes over (and you do not have the time to keep up), it becomes difficult to catch up when there is so many silly postings.

It's a tricky balance - analysis/community

While there is a mindless discussion thread, I imagine it is only visited by those who are using RSS subscriptions, which indicate when something new is posted there.

Out of curiosity - who uses RSS feeds for this site? My guess would be that the majority visit directly via web browser.

Perhaps with each episode, there should be two threads. One which is a little more strict (show related only), while the other is more anything goes?

I think this will be something to think about in the off season.....

#738. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2008 3:14 PM

@shikotee

I have tried RSS feed, but I keep coming back via web browser.
Sometimes it's fun to look at all of the other items on this site.

4 1/2 hours here on the East coast...

Can't wait to read vacc's review

#739. Posted by: bean116 at May 29, 2008 3:25 PM

Post 730 something is probably not the best place for a more serious thematic discussion, but...I'll do it anyway. If I don't write it down, the thoughts eventually ooze out of my head and make an embarrassing mess.

I've been thinking about TPTB suggesting that viewers may be able to get future plot hints from the bible.

But...all of the story references seen so far have come from the Old Testament, specifically the first sections of the Old Testament which are generally believed to have been the earliest written.

In fact, I can't think of a single reference to Christianity or Islam throughout this show (except for Christian's name, perhaps).

What we do get is a mixture of old Old Testament, Egyptian and Greek mythology, and the oldest eastern religions- Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism.

Why? I'm thinking Joseph Campbell.

Campbell was a highly respected writer and professor of comparative religion and mythology. His essential concept was that if you strip away the last 2000-2500 years of religious thought and instead focus on the earliest texts and stories of the developing religions, you see the same basic stories, myths and concepts across cultures and across religions.

Campbell believed that by studying these common stories and myths, we can find "universal, basic truths". He also theorized that there may be a geographical basis to the foundations of these ancient religions, i.e. they may originated from the same people whose descendants gradually spread throughout the Eurasian area.

One of the most important myths was what Campbell called the Monomyth, or Heroic Journey. I won't repeat all of the steps to the monomyth, but parts of it include:

*A blunder – apparently the merest chance – reveals an unsuspected world, and the individual is drawn into a relationship with forces that are not rightly understood."

*Walled in boredom, hard work, or 'culture,' the subject (Locke?) loses the power of significant affirmative action and becomes a victim to be saved."

*"The hero must cross the threshold between the world he is familiar with and that which he is not. Often this involves facing a "threshold guardian", an entity that works to keep all within the protective confines of the world but must be encountered in order to enter the new zone of experience."

*The hero, rather than passing a threshold, passes into the new zone by means of rebirth. Appearing to have died by being swallowed or having their flesh scattered, the hero is transformed and becomes ready for the adventure ahead"

*"Once past the threshold, the hero encounters a dream landscape of ambiguous and fluid forms. The hero is challenged to survive a succession of obstacles and, in so doing, amplifies his consciousness. The hero is helped covertly by the supernatural helper or may discover a benign power supporting him in his passage"

There's a lot more, but you get the general idea. As a side note, George Lucas used Campbell's Monomyth theory extensively in his writing and planning of the Star Wars saga (and yes, Luke must confront and defeat his father).

Campbell was also a huge fan of James Joyce, especially the controversial book "Finnigan's Wake", which most people find unreadable. FW is written in a stream of consciousness mode, full of literary allusions and dream sequences. It heavily refernces Vico's "La Scienza Nuova", which argues that all history is cyclical and that the age of man is coming to an end, and the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which features Osiris being torn apart by his son Set, and then later avenged by his other son, Horus.

FW is so dense and difficult to understand that Campbell wrote a guide to Joyce's work, explaining many of the allusions inside. That guide is called..ta dum.."Skeleton Key".

Okay, I'll be quiet now.

#740. Posted by: Mizzed at May 29, 2008 3:29 PM

@739. Posted by: bean116

I only recently tried RSS feeds, but found that I much preferred web browser access.

I found that RSS was way too slow in terms of keeping up with comments on the Friday after a new episode. Also, I preferred scrolling down through comments, as opposed to going through them one by one.

The only plus with RSS is that it keeps you posted on activity on older threads - such as the rabble babble one!

Now if only I could find a way to live feed this site into my brain....

#741. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2008 3:41 PM

698/Clementine "But, on the other hand, Walt killing his father doesn't "ring true" on an emotional level for me."

I agree. I always thought Walt to be more of the grown up in the Michael and Walt relationship. I understand how a scenario where Walt kills Michael would fit into the Lost story arc/mythos but I would need to see some transformation in the Walt character before it would make sense to me. Though, having said that, remembering the amount of anger that Walt had/has, it might not take much to get there.

#742. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 29, 2008 3:49 PM

@shikotee...Now if only I could find a way to live feed this site into my brain....

And I thought I was the only one dreaming of a way to have this site seeped into my mind while lets say driving, eating, working, all the things we must do on a daily basis while all the while waiting for more lost and/or Mac

ps, Michael is in the casket. i think?

#743. Posted by: bean116 at May 29, 2008 3:52 PM

@740 Mizzed prophesied:

>In fact, I can't think of a single reference to Christianity or Islam throughout this show (except for Christian's name, perhaps).

Don't have a picture here in front of me but it seems to me Eko's Jesus-stick had at least half New Testament references on it.

Plus the very name "Jesus-stick".

Plus Eko was/simulated being a Roman Catholic priest.

Eko's priestly work in Australia.

Yemi's church and the old priest Eko was forced to execute.

Plus a theme of "redemption" running throughout, a very New Testament thing.

Eko was building a presumably Christian church on the island.

Eko baptized Aaron, after Charlie tried to. And Claire.

Charlies' hallucinated images of his mother and Clair as Christian icons/angels,

Charlie and family in flashback celebrating Christmas.

I believe Sayid prayed on a rug facing Mecca, an Islamic reference. I seem to remember him doing so on the sailboat with Jin and Sun, and perhaps in earlier times.

Enough Christian/Islamic references?

#744. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 4:06 PM

#738 shikotee technophiled:

>Out of curiosity - who uses RSS feeds for this site? My guess would be that the majority visit directly via web browser.

Maybe if one of you wired-in youngsters would 'splain to us old geezers, slowly and using little words, I might give 'er a try.

#745. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 4:10 PM

743/bean116 "Michael is in the casket. i think?"

I think that Michael is definitely a good candidate to be TMITC. What I think/fear may happen is that it will be Ben. I would hate to see his character die - though dead on Lost is not really dead. I'm sure we would see plenty more of him via flashbacks.

He has become one of my favorite characters. Michael Emerson has done a bang up job - I cannot imagine anyone else playing that role.

My guess that Ben is TMITC is due to Jack and Kate's reaction to the funeral news. Jack sees Ben as the best/only way back to the island and Kate doesn't really give a care.

I would much rather see Michael be put to rest. Either way, it's gonna be a fun ride.

#746. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 29, 2008 4:24 PM

Wow, I missed the whole drive to 700...rats! Still not caught up, but must go out yet again (at least last night was for something fun...a wine tasting). However:

→ 641. DriveShaft: Absolutely, always room in the grammatical sandbox!

→ 654. davidrh:" I suggest “Kate Turabian Manuals” at Dawn"

I counter w/the Chicago Manual of Style... ; )

→ 668. ealgumby: Two 666 IDs:

Does this mean you're double trouble? ; >

→ 701. ealgumby: @Clementine/698—"Michael in the coffin less anti-climatic."...Alaïs_Longthought ... any comments? ;)

Seeing as how I made the same spelling error myself in a post, I must recuse myself...although obviously Clementine & I share an interest in climatology! ; >

Must go now...see you all after the finale!

#747. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 29, 2008 4:48 PM

@745. Posted by: Cecil Rose

re: RSS feeds

LoL - Truth be told, although RSS feeds have been around for awhile, I never ever actually explored what they were up until a month ago!

If you want to learn more, do a wiki search on RSS

Myself - I guess I can freely say that I visit several web sites on a regular consistent basis. When I started to use tabbed browsing, it was not uncommon for me to have 40+ tabs open consistently.

By making the move to using RSS feeds (I'm a Mac man - and I use Netnewswire), I was able to eliminate all those resource draining tabs, and keep up with new info from my favourite sites.

Basically, I subscribe to the sites that I want, and the Netnewswire app shows me all the new headlines from those sites. If there is something of interest, I click on it and expand it in my browser.

It really is useful to use for a wide range of sites, but there will always be those that do not fit the mold - such as this site. I imagine this is a personal preference!

If you do visit alot of websites, I highly recommend that you check out RSS feeds, as it makes it much easier to manage your information!

#748. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2008 4:57 PM

There's gotta be someone who can explain it better than me!

I will add - it is really good for blogs - especially those that do not have new content every single day.

Now, I no longer have to visit blogs to see if something new has been posted - the software tells me when something new is there!

It does make things much more convenient.

With that said, as I have just recently begun to explore this technology, I have expanded my horizons immensely - possibly to the point of overkill. I'm exploring so many different points of interest, and it is clearly sucking up alot of time.

It does explain why it has become harder for me to keep up and participate in this forum.....

But this is more a personal dilemma - I love reading about so many different things.....

#749. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2008 5:07 PM

-748 and 749-shikotee
Nice try. But I'm in Cecil's boat. No clue about RSS feeds. Maybe if it had something to do with food? Never mind. I use a browser called Opera. Nothing to do with music, either.

I also share the sentiments about racking up posts to achieve a number. It makes more work for Mac, too, as he has to read/scan each one. As pointed out, there's the off-topic section for those discussions.

So, to make this a legitimate post: Remember last season's finale, with Jack and Kate at the end of the runway (hmmm...maybe a metaphor there, too)? Have we discussed WHEN that occurred (in LOST time)? I'm thinking it's after they were engaged, romping around in their underwear, etc. So that means Kate and Jack eventually break up.

I'll close in whining that I have longer to wait than most of you (mountain standard time here).

#750. Posted by: lovelost at May 29, 2008 5:39 PM

@749 shikotee ?explained? RSS feeds:

The geezer in me: "Huh?" [make Jack mouth noises here]

So.... I:

1) Download free(?) or buy a software application program and install it.

a - What's a good one in the PC world.

b - Will they work on an ancient Windows '98 machine (my homee computer)


2) Sign up to receive content somehow

a - I assume that block labeled "Lost Blog Syndicate/RSS" is in some way involved. Howzat?

b- Do you sign up for (1) each separate topic, as in this one, the random topic, the new one Vacc's busy preparing even as we speak, or (2) everything in the "Lost" blog, with no need to separately sign up for each new one, or (3) everything FilmFodder/TV Fodder puts out. To tell the truth, options 1 and 3 would not be very attractive to me.

3) OK, having done so, I guess new posts show up in your application somehow.

a - Do you store them there for future reference, or are they gone after you read them

b - Can you respond to them just like we would here?

c - If B is yes, can we respond to multiples at a time like we do here?

d- Is quoting easier?

e - Are there value added features like spell-check?

Don't feel obligated to compile a long answer right now with the Lost-Train bearing down on us, but these are the kind of things I'm wondering.

Thanks,

#751. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 5:42 PM

@750 lovelost whined:

>So, to make this a legitimate post: Remember last season's finale, with Jack and Kate at the end of the runway (hmmm...maybe a metaphor there, too)? Have we discussed WHEN that occurred (in LOST time)? I'm thinking it's after they were engaged, romping around in their underwear, etc. So that means Kate and Jack eventually break up.

I think that's pretty much what most folks assumed.

>I'll close in whining that I have longer to wait than most of you (mountain standard time here).

So fly to Raleigh real quick and come to my house. Fresh strawberries with your "Lost".

#752. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 5:46 PM

It is 5:10 PM... Do you know where your children are?

Haha. The initial point was... 3 hours and 50 minutes till PART TWO!!!

YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!

Thanks to everyone that has been saying "congrats". It was harder than it looked. (If you look at the timing of the posts... I really thought I was going to lose it).

@ ealgumby - 706
That's kinda funny. Amithab's DA MAN! So you would watch Indian movies with her? My aunt does that to my uncle. Haha. I can tell he doesn't like them.

I don't like them either... I used to, but now they just got stupid.

Aishwarya Rai is another person I hate a lot... ALMOST as much as Jack, but not. Jack is a lot worse than she is.

@ Cecil Rose - 715
I love how that took so long to get right. Haha. Made me laugh.

"Congratulations on achieving your objective. Now get that beauty sleep and wake up refreshed for a three hour “Lost” orgy."

I sure did get that beauty sleep... 4 FULL HOURS!!! And I'm PUMPED!!! Can't wait!!!

Once again -- GOOD LUCK VACC!!! No matter how it turns out, we'll still love you!!!

@ Cecil Rose - 722
"Wonder if she's angling for #800 now?"

I am actually... Haha. I don't think it'll be as interesting as trying to get 700, but 800 will be nice! Anyone think I can't do it??

@ Skipper - 723
"Congrats ILBLxx!!!
I waited up as long as I could to see if you’d get 700, but I crashed before you made it. I had to check it out on my blackberry first thing this morning, while driving to work. Don’t worry, I didn’t crash….just some minor swerving. For your reward, I’m making that Tunisian dinner I promised you and eating it on your behalf while I watch Lost tonight."

Haha... Thanks!!! It's the thought that counts!!!

Mmm... Tunisian dinner on my behalf! I feel special =]

I guess I can pretend I'm eating it... on your behalf... although that may be a little weird.

ILBLxx @ Dinner:

ILBLxx: Skipper, this Tunisian dinner is AMAZING.

Mom: Who's Skipper?

Dad: (Sarcastically) Yeah, it's great. Yum.

Sister: Am I missing something?

ILBLxx: (To sister) You're stupid.

Mom: Are you guys making fun of me?

Sister: What are you talking about mom?!?!

Dad: (My name) is pretending she's eating dinner with Benjamin Linus in Tunisia... she calls him "Skipper" for short.

Mom: WHAT?!?!

ILBLxx: Nice.

Sister: Wow.

ILBLxx: Daddy... You do realize the Skipper I'm referring to is a girl.

Dad: Benjamin Linus is a girl? *GASP*!

ILBLxx: Ok, I'm done with this... (storms upstairs annoyed)

Sister: What's her problem?

Dad: It's okay, we can SKIP-HER.

Sister: That was just about the dumbest joke I've ever heard in my life.

THE END.

(That's seriously how most of my family's dinner discussions go... and end) =] Haha.

@ Vacc - 726
"I♥Ben :Congrats on being 700!! (Hey, that would also make a great Richard Alpert Birthday Card!)"

You're totally right!!! Haha!!! Thanks!

@ Vacc - 727
I think I'm actually going to make those! Haha... Now I'm even MORE excited!!!

Sorry Robislost! I think it kind of died after the first week... I thought I'd make it more interesting by trying to be 700.

And sorry to everyone else that was angry about it.

I have a feeling it's not going to slow down though. After tonight's episode, we'll get a lot of LOST. discussion in.

I think now that everyone's talking about this now, it made it more "off topic" and not LOST-related.

We "SORT OF" ran out of things to talk about... we're just waiting for someone to share new theories/ideas that we can discuss.

I feel like everything I posted just made it even MORE off topic. Sorry everyone.

I should probably stop talking about this, but I figured it was okay since it seemd like only me, ealgumby, and driveshaft were reguraly checking it.

Wow... this post took a long time... ish.

Sorry again.

#753. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 29, 2008 5:47 PM

→ 744. Posted by: Cecil Rose:

"Enough Christian/Islamic references?"

touche, Cecil Rose, nothing like a few facts to get in the way of a good theory. I must have been too hyped up about tonight's finale that I had a complete mental lapse this afternoon concerning the Eko story arc.

But after rethinking my Campbell/ancient religion/mythology theory, and rereading your examples, I'm not ready to concede just yet- in fact, I think it actually makes more sense when Eko is included. As for Sayid praying or Charlie's Christmas recollections, I'm not sure those really qualify as anything other than basic character developnment- I wouldn't really consider them explicit story references that help fill in the blanks.

Consider the following about the Eko story:

On the season 2 DVD, actor Adewale says:

"I've had some difficulty trying to establish the character with the writers. Y'know, because we were trying to marry what they wanted to do with the show and feelings that I wanted to see come out in the character..."

*Again, referencing the season 2 DVD, we're told that the writers created the concept of the staff (a significant biblical reference to shepherd, Moses and Aaron), but the actor conceived the idea of carving the biblical references onto the staff, thereby making it a "Jesus stick". (granted, the writers did agree to this, but then they also eventually killed the character off- i.e. Eko is not part of fate's mandated characters required for the show's resolution).

Also consider this:

*Eko is literally a false priest. His actions result in defiling his brother's church.

*The Virgin Mary statuettes are "hollow". They do not serve as a symbol of faith but as a vessel for drug smuggling.

*Eko finds the bible in the Arrow station- it is again, "hollow" and contains an important Dharma clue (the film).

*Eko begins to rebuild his brother's Christian church as an act of atonement, but then has a dream where he is told that pushing the Dharma buttons in the hatch is more important than building the church.

*Eko, the symbol of Christian faith, is literally locked out of the hatch by Desmond and Locke (the island's man of faith), and of course he is eventually killed by the Island's protector (Smokey).

*Eko carves John 3:05 into his walking stick, and while you are right that it is a New Testament reference, where does the heading lead to? Another Dharma station/clue (The Flame).

*Eko dreams of his brother leading him to a question mark on the ground. When he follows the clurs he finds...another Dharma station.

Ultimately, the most overtly Christian character on the show finds all paths lead to Dharma and/or the Island's mysteries.

And then there's the scene of Hurley's surprise party ("Jesus Christ is not a weapon")....

#754. Posted by: Mizzed at May 29, 2008 5:47 PM

@753 ilovebenjaminlinusxx challenged:

>>@ Cecil Rose - 722
>>"Wonder if she's angling for #800 now?"

>I am actually... Haha. I don't think it'll be as interesting as trying to get 700, but 800 will be nice! Anyone think I can't do it??

Only problem is, if we don't make it by 8PM, you've got the dilemma of pay attentoion to the show or pay attention to the blog, unless you've got the computer and a TV set up together.

Then, if you stop looking at the blog while we're in the high 700's, the west coasters may push us over the top before you can come back to the blog.

#755. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 6:00 PM

So fly to Raleigh real quick and come to my house. Fresh strawberries with your "Lost".
→ 752. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Sure, invite me NOW...3-hour time diff, another 3-5 hours to get there depending on flight schedules, etc. You're safe!

However, you ARE one of the sagest (most sage?) and most enjoyable posters here, and it would be an honor to meet you someday. If I ever get to Raleigh, I'll bring the champagne to go with those strawberries; and you and Mrs Rose and I will celebrate LOST.

So, Meg, now you know what I'll be drinking tonight. Cheers and namaste to all.

The TIME magazine article titled "Less LOST is More" discussed the wisdom of TPTB plotting the show's own demise by announcing an end to the series. "The brilliant, groundbreaking LOST may just show that quality can beat quantity." Sadly for us LOSTies, that's true.

#756. Posted by: lovelost at May 29, 2008 6:13 PM

re: RSS feeds

This explains things rather well (I think)

http://www.backinskinnyjeans.com/2006/09/how_to_explain_.html

#757. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2008 6:18 PM

re: RSS (Again)

Better yet, check out:

http://www.commoncraft.com/rss_plain_english

This is a decent video explanation of things!

#758. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2008 6:25 PM

re: RSS (thrice reference)

Definitely check out the link to the video. It is ranked highly by non-tech people who have wanted to learn about RSS.

I would highly recommend checking out RSS, as it really does have the potential to make your internet experience so much easier. The initial steps might be a little confusing, but once you get going, you'll be a happy camper!

PS - Scarf!

Getting closer to 800....

#759. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2008 6:32 PM

#756 lovelost wailed:

>Sure, invite me NOW...3-hour time diff, another 3-5 hours to get there depending on flight schedules, etc. You're safe!

Well, if you've got the odd SR-71 sitting around...

The S-4 party we tried to gen up never got off the ground, but maybe we can have an S-5 in Jan/Feb '09.

#760. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 6:38 PM

Thanks for the links shikotee, and I'll check them out AFTER tonight.

#761. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 6:40 PM

And my absolute last post befoer racing home and jumping in front of the TV set...

What's your best guess on the overs and unders on Vacc's posting time?

I'll take 11AM.

Remember, two hour finales challenge even the great and mighty mac.

#762. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 29, 2008 6:43 PM

@ Cecil Rose - 755
Yeah, good point. But I'm actually starting the "enhanced" version at 8:20 (to forward commercials) and 9:40 for part 2.

I guess other people have to be here too though... so yeah, you're right.

I don't think we can do it.

And my sister said her friend is coming at 9. I got really mad at her. I told her that if they're anywhere on the first floor/same floor as me of my house that I won't be too happy.

She doesn't really care though... so I'm pretty much screwed.

I've been waiting for today since forever... and my family doesn't care to show me any respect!!!

How rude.

#763. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 29, 2008 6:54 PM

@Robislost/730, shikotee/738, lovelost/750, et al:

I agree with shikotee's analysis: "It's a tricky balance - analysis/community."

One thing you have to consider (any why I personally like it here), is that this is a blog, not a multi-thread forum. If you want concise threads which stick (more) to topic, as well as enhanced database/search features, then maybe one of the forums would be better suited. I don't spend much time in the forums anymore, because I prefer having only one place to look for info (and if that makes me lazy ... well then, I guess I'm lazy). The problem with forums (especially the bigger ones), is that people often mix topics within posts, and the thought/idea I may be looking for, is often NOT cataloged under a thread I'd expect (and navigating some of the big forums is bad enough when you KNOW where to look!). With blogs this is not an issue ... of course, having to go through posts you possibly aren't really interested in, is the trade-off for not "missing" anyone's new ideas.

The idea of using the random topic thread here is a good one, and I guess very soon there will be no other choice. However, I think adding additional threads will solve nothing, as most people will still go to the "main" weekly recap thread. This is also true even with the random topics thread available now, and the reason is easy to figure out ...

The vast majority of the time, an apparently random, or off-topic, topic springs directly from something posted as a "legitimate" comment. Especially in posts with multiple replies, you'll often see a "90% business/10% play" post. Now I suppose if someone JUST wanted to reply to the "play" part, they could do so on the random topic thread, but that goes against the instinct to reply immediately, and maintain the current train of thought (i.e., "thread") without losing that by going off somewhere else to post a reply. Not only that, but the person replying may ALSO have multiple comments, of which only one may be "fun," while the others are directly Lost-related. What's that person supposed to do? The sticklers would say, post twice, one "serious" reply to the episode thread, and one "fun" reply to the random topic thread. Okay, let's be real here, how many people are going to go through that trouble? Call it lazy all you want, doing so isn't going to change the reality.

Hell, I can use the discussion that arose from THIS topic to demonstrate my point. In post #738, shikotee suggested using the RSS option as a means to keep up with the random topic thread. Good idea, but look what happened ... by my count, there have been no less than ten comments posted since then dealing ONLY with RSS. Should those have all been posted in the random topic thread? Do you see my point? This type of thing happens all the time, and it's just the price you have to pay, for taking part in the blog format.

Granted, some of the posts last night (guilty! but only a few, in my defense) served no purpose other than to drive up the post count. I would have to say, that within the first day or two after a new recap, that kind of thing would seriously irritate me ... honestly though, by last night, I think it was safe to say we were well past that point, and just seemed like a bit of harmless pre-finale fun.

That situation does not account for MOST of the "off-topic" posts that tend to accumulate over time though, and that's where shikotee's "analysis/community" dichotomy comes in. I have been chided in the past here for not being light-hearted enough, while this recent round of criticism is essentially the opposite. Just goes to show that this blog is occupied by a diverse group, often with opinions/motivations that are at odds, and it goes with the territory. There's no way to please everyone, all the time, but I do think that overall, we demonstrate a lot of common courtesy and consideration for each other here, but the other side of that coin is tolerance. There is certainly no place for blatant rudeness here, but that's not what we're talking about now.

I know Mac has been very busy lately, but I also tend to think that if things REALLY got out of control here, he'd identify the problem himself (or hear about it) and take appropriate actions. As that is not the case, this is clearly a personal/group wants/needs issue, and there needs to be a bit of flexibility all around. As such:

(1) We should all make an effort to keep TRULY off-topic comments on the random topic thread.

(2) Those who are fortunate enough to have a bit of free time, should be considerate of those who may not, and make every effort not to clutter the blog with unnecessary posts.

(3) Those who feel the blog is still too off-topic, might have to bite their tongues, and tolerate the occasional non sequitur post. Of course, blatant examples otherwise, including offensive or overly frivolous posting, will be fair game.

In short, just like on the playground of life, if we are to play together nicely, there will probably be some "small" degree of sacrifice required all the way around. Hopefully everyone will agree that is a very small price to pay, for the benefit of enjoying both the analysis and community aspects of this blog.

#764. Posted by: ealgumby at May 29, 2008 7:46 PM

UNREAL FINALE!!!
I cannot get over what i just saw!! I can't wrap my brain around it! WOWOWOW- they [EDITED] the f&*%ng [EDITED]? and [EDITED] is in the casket?!!? And have you ever seen a better, hotter [EDITED] kiss??
WOW!

[EDITED FOR SPOILERY STUFF ... sorry]

#765. Posted by: Sillygirl0630 at May 29, 2008 11:14 PM

It WAS a hot one! For sure!

Come on Vacc - Bring it on!!!!

#766. Posted by: davidrh at May 29, 2008 11:26 PM

Oh . . . and no pressure.

#767. Posted by: davidrh at May 29, 2008 11:26 PM

Holy crap...my head hurts from this episode...amazing...that's all I can say for now

#768. Posted by: vikki at May 29, 2008 11:27 PM

@765. Posted by: Sillygirl0630

No doubt you are excited after watching the finale, but it is poor form to post such spoiler details as you have in this thread.

In theory, you could be ruining someone's viewing pleasure (ie someone in the future who will read this thread before watching the S4 finale).

#769. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2008 11:31 PM

Hi everyone!

Thanks to a Web connection and the glory of Slingbox, I was able to watch the finale (albeit in a very non-HD way).

I'm jetlagged and exhausted, but OH MY did *that* finale ever wake me up (for about 30 seconds ... I'm now ready to sleep for six days).

Vacc -- Good luck with the recap!

(Incidentally, I had a hard time watching the episode without doing my customary, anal-retentive process ... I realized about half-way through that the only other episode I actually "watched" as a normal viewer was the Pilot).

Anywho ... I'll try to check back in tomorrow. Until then, may your land masses stay grounded and your icy vaults remain vaulted! -- mac

#770. Posted by: mac at May 29, 2008 11:37 PM

The first thing that came to my mind when the LOST. thing came up at the end of the episode (actually throughout the entire episode) was, HOLY SHIT.

I totally called the Locke thing like 5 seconds before they showed him. I turned to my dad and was like, "Locke". I actually didn't turn... I just said it.

But OMG! And we need to talk about the "enhanced" version of part 1.

Good luck Vacc!!! Unfortunately I might be going to sleep sometime soon.

#771. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 29, 2008 11:51 PM

regarding 771 by: ihatebensanusxx,
HOLY SHxT.
===========================
HEY - Watch the fowl language beyontch-ee. Go back to the nickel slot machines and wait for your 17.50 payoff.......

#772. Posted by: Phil-A-Scioutious at May 30, 2008 12:03 AM

@vacc: Although you're not reading this, as you have a few other priorities at the moment, I'm sending you good thoughts, best wishes and all my brain power. (I'm off to bed, so you can borrow it for 6 hours or so.) Having enjoyed everything you've contributed to this Blog for the last few years, I have no fear, knowing our best pinch hitter is at the plate and will knock it out of the park.

The depth and detail of that finale was incredible. I can't wait to watch it another 2 or 3 or 10 times. Thank goodness we have 8 months to process it (not!!)

Goodnight, John-Boy Mac. Goodnight, Lost Bloggers.

#773. Posted by: Clementine at May 30, 2008 12:12 AM

re: enhanced version

Grumble grumble....

Ok -- so I really enjoyed the finale, and will enjoy discussing it when the thread is posted.

But -- I'm sorry - I do have problems with this new "enhanced version".

So - Now we know - Boone, Charlie, (and who else was it?) were the fake story survivors of 815, as clear by the extra footage of the O6 meet the press scene.

So - why was this footage not included in the original screening of the episode?

Sorry - this is just way too gimicky for me. It is a cheesy way to snag viewers for a re-run. I have no problem with the footnote enhancements (supplemental bonus reading), but it just seems wrong to re-edit an episode such.

Am I alone in this feeling?

What other extra stuff was there?

#774. Posted by: shikotee at May 30, 2008 12:38 AM

re--753. Posted by: ib-licks
+++++++++
"I think now that everyone's talking about this now, it made it more "off topic" and not LOST-related. We "SORT OF" ran out of things to talk about... we're just waiting for someone to share new theories/ideas that we can discuss. I feel like everything I posted just made it even MORE off topic. Sorry everyone."
++++++++++++++
Sorry Everyone... blahblah, yadayada.
That is all you have done for the past three months---made everything you have ever said---completely OFF TOPIC. Get a clew OR ZIP IT!!!

#775. Posted by: Bobola at May 30, 2008 4:48 AM

Sorry to post on the old thread, but I can't check this at work and since the Sox are in town (well, 45 miles north in B'more, but close enough) I probably won't get a chance to get back here till Saturday at the earliest.

I have to agree that I found some of the Pop-Up Video version annoying...do people who watch Lost really need to be told that the Wizard of Oz is a story about returning home?

Having said that, I was on the edge of my seat when Jack mentioned Boone, Libby, and Charlie as being the others who were in the "8" that made it to the island. But that had me thinking...the rest of this relates to last night's finale, so if you haven't seen it yet, stop reading now!


I had assumed all along that the "lie" had been concocted by Ben, or perhaps by Widmore. Now that we know that it was Jack who was the architect of the lie, why those three? I had thought Charlie was one of them since he was the only person to have contact directly with the outside world, but if Penny is going to keep the Oceanic 6's secret, surely she wouldn't blurt out that she had had a video conference with the lead singer of Drive Shaft at some dinner party! Anyone have any ideas why they needed more survivors (other than just to make a more convincing story), and why those 3?

Just as I was starting to like Benjamin Linus...I can understand him killimg Keamy, I'd want to stab him to death too after watching him heartlessly shoot my (purely hypothetical) daughter, but his callous reaction when Locke pointed out that he also killed everyone on that freighter made me glad that Jacob picked Locke to go with him to the finale (although Jacob would surely get more Jury votes going up against Benry). All we needed was Jeff Probst snuffing out his torch.

As far as Sun goes, does she blame Jack as the other person who killed Jin, for not going back to the freighter to get him? Does she blame Ben for killing Keamy and setting off the explosives? Or does she blame Widmore for sending the commando team in the first place, and maybe she is working for Ben like Sayid is? Kim Yoon-jin is a great actress, and made quite a name for herself in Korea in a film called Shiri (check it out if you haven't), where she plays a double agent. Is she entrapping Widmore as a double agent again?

I found it interesting that Claire appeared to Kate in a dream, and not as a waking apparition like Christian has appeared to Michael and Jack off the island, or Charlie and Mr. Eko (appearantly) have to Hurley. Does this mean that Claire might still be alive? When Claire told Kate not to dare bring Aaron back (to the island, presumably), was that Claire talking, Kate's subconcious, or the island?

I loved the way the man in the coffin was revealed. First we found out it wasn't Michael (sharkbait) or Ben (standing there alive as he ever was), and then the lift up and over the lid to reveal Locke. Why was Locke using the name Jeremy Bentham? Are we to believe his "suicide" was caused by Widmore? Why did the Island let him die?

Speaking of the Island keeping peopel alive, I thought for a while the freighter wouldn't explode because the Island was protecting Michael. When Christian showed up though, I knew it was bad news for anyone on the boat!

What happened to Daniel and the Zodiac? They were still on the way to the freighter when it exploded...were they rescued as well? Wouldn't Lapidus have had the Searcher look for them before it sailed to Indonesia?

And were Rose and Bernard on the Zodiac, or on the beach? I only recall seeing Juliet and Sawyer on the Beach at the end, but there could have been others back at the camp. We certainly know Miles and Charlotte stayed behind.

Finally, this has been a great and interesting show about a group of poeple stranded on a strange island trying to get home. For the last two seasons, the producers have changed the paradigm, as more than half of the regular cast are now off the island in the present. We'll see if TPTB can keep me interested, or if Lost will turn into something less thrilling like the Six (or whatever that Scott Wolfe show about the people who survived the bank robbery was called).

It's a long time till January!!

#776. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 30, 2008 7:40 AM

Re on/off-topic threads: Just chipping in my two cents' worth...I've been posting here for four+ years, starting out exclusively on the forums & gradually migrating to mostly posting under the reviews. What ealgumby says in #764 is accurate about each forum thread—it may have started out quite focused on one topic, but it's almost guaranteed to have wandered into other subjects, both on- & off-topic, & finding all of the information on a particular topic requires looking through multiple threads. (And it's almost guaranteed at some point that someone will complain that "this topic was discussed in such & such a thread" when someone starts a new forum thread.) Additionally, having all of us posting under one thread per episode leads to a cross-fertilization of ideas, which can lead to new ideas & different insights that wouldn't have occurred w/o the juxtaposition of those original posts. And it's a lot easier to read one thread under the reviews w/all the comments & ideas on that episode, whether on- or off-topic. Echoing ealgumby #764, if that makes me lazy, I guess I'm lazy!

#777. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 30, 2008 9:36 AM

Man...I could be first...the anticipation is killing me. I can't wait for vacc's review!!

#778. Posted by: meg at May 30, 2008 10:12 AM

@all

Will post b4 noon.. Was too much to get through last night and once baby wakes up in the AM, I had to wait till he's in daycare.

#779. Posted by: vacc at May 30, 2008 10:21 AM

@754/Mizzed "Eko carves John 3:05 into his walking stick, and while you are right that it is a New Testament reference, where does the heading lead to? Another Dharma station/clue (The Flame)...Ultimately, the most overtly Christian character on the show finds all paths lead to Dharma and/or the Island's mysteries."

305 was also the heading leading to rescue.

#780. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 30, 2008 10:25 AM

No worries, vacc.

We understand, even as we tremble with anticipation at the starting line of commentary.

I probably will not be posting for a while even after it's up as I have a heavy batch of work (WORK!) to get through.

#781. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 10:44 AM

@799 vacc

Whenever your masterpiece is complete, that will be fine. Better to to a decent job than to rush it. Some other things are certainly more important.

Afterall, 85% of the comments, theories and guesses that followed the Season III finale were off target. Eighty five percent!

So, it helps to let it sink in when your head hurts.

#782. Posted by: JT at May 30, 2008 10:54 AM

I'm confused. So . . . they are just lying to protect *themselves*? Doesn't it seem a bit less compelling with everyone dead? What is it that is driving Jack to try to get back to the island? Certainly it's not concern about the scant few remaining survivors.

Everyone from 815 is now dead with the exception of Locke, Sawyer, possibly Claire and maybe a half dozen people that were on the zodiac or the beach. As far as the 6 know when they leave, EVERYONE is dead but Locke. They can't even be sure Sawyer is alive. In one fell swoop / boom suddenly the stakes just seem dramatically lower.

It will be interesting to see where the Zodiac winds up. I can't imagine that it made the freighter and they're all dead too. But were they close enough to be moved with the island, or are they stuck in the middle of nowhere?

#783. Posted by: kurgan at May 30, 2008 11:21 AM

Congratulations everyone! (who love lots of posts)

This is the longest most awesome thread ever!!!

"Ji Yeon" stood strong at 769, but ultimately had to tumble! Good work!

(and just to be like a politician),

Condolences everyone! (who hate lots of posts)

This is the longest most awful thread ever!!!

"Ji Yeon" was long-winded at 769, but here we have even more babble! Horrible stuff!

#784. Posted by: shikotee at May 30, 2008 11:26 AM

Hey Everyone, I don't usually post because by the time i get to it everyone else has said mush smarter things then I ever could. But here goes. . .

Last night episode was awesome. . .so much happened, but the last scene stood out to me when John was revealed. I said aloud "he moved the island again" and he was trying to get everyone together to go back, even Walt (who's like 30 now).

Then it hit me Widmore must have been on the island, maybe the leader before Ben, moved it and now is trying to get back too!

Or I could be wrong. . . who knows?

Also did anyone catch the commercial during the last break?? I was fast-forwarding and thought it looked fake and it was. It wanted you to visit - http://www.octagonglobalrecruiting.com/

What does that mean?? I'm so bad at figuring those out.

That's it for now. Can't wait for the recap Vacc

#785. Posted by: Murr at May 30, 2008 11:38 AM

Dang... I didn't know I was the "hated" poster on this blog... its ok though, after I complained, the reviews were much better :) Seriously though, I've been coming here for years, and love everyone's insight, but don't be so sensitive people (especially Ilovebenjaminlinus)

#786. Posted by: Boozy at May 30, 2008 11:50 AM

Wow... Apprarently I'm hated too.

I guess this post was also off topic.
No use saying sorry.

#787. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 12:04 PM

@787

LoL - How can we hate you when you're so darn cute!

Dbl LoL - If vacc doesn't post soon, he'll be the one everyone will hate!

I'm sure anticipation is just killing everyone!

Just before noon, did anyone have problems connecting?

I think too many people were hitting refresh at the same time!

Getting close to 800....

#788. Posted by: shikotee at May 30, 2008 12:09 PM

Hey - don't let the few rule the masses. No need for anyone to apologize imo, I frequent this space BECAUSE of the community and the banter, not in spite of it.

and to keep it on topic, I screamed out loud twice during last night's ep, much to the surpise of my 10 y.o. who was watching with me......

#789. Posted by: lostinVT at May 30, 2008 12:15 PM

Thanks shikotee. Haha.

Anyway... I can't wait for vacc to post it.

That was awesome when Locke was like, "Ben, what did you do? You just killed all the people on the boat" and Ben replied, "So?" HAHA.

I love him.

I have to rewatch it when I get home from school.
Over, and over and over again.

#790. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 12:17 PM

@776/FenwayBen

Why Boone, Libby, and Charlie as the three that died? Boone talked on the Heroin plane radio. Charlie talked on the radio to Penny.

Did Libby have any possible contact to the outside world? Or maybe it's a shoutout to Hurley's girlfriend!

#791. Posted by: DW at May 30, 2008 12:20 PM

Oh my gosh so many observations and Qs, but Ill wait to see what you guys post when the new recap is posted.

:)

#792. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 30, 2008 12:22 PM

@791. Posted by: DW

Why Boone, and why not Shannon?

#793. Posted by: shikotee at May 30, 2008 12:22 PM

I thought there were supposed to only be 2 more crash survivors?

#794. Posted by: Rudy at May 30, 2008 12:23 PM

@794

Total of 8 survivors...

Aaron not born yet, so 5 + Boone, Libby, Charlie

#795. Posted by: shikotee at May 30, 2008 12:28 PM

*****not a spoiler but don't read if you haven't watched the season finale"*****

Did you guys see Sayid kick Keamy's ass? I was literally at the edge of my seat. So, I guess the mirror/reflector message was from Ben to Eyeliner telling him to execute and awesome plan and to kidnap Kate and Sayid, then use them to free Ben and shoot Keamy in the back! That mirror is more effective than text messaging.

I did some more Blackberry blog reading on the way to work this morning. No worries, it was stop and go traffic so all is well. I CAN'T wait until Vacc opens the flood gates so that I can read what everyone has to say about Locke in the casket (I was wrong, it wasn't stupid Michael after all). And Charlotte has already been to the island? WTF? poor Daniel might still be in that zodiac. bless his heart.

#796. Posted by: Skipper at May 30, 2008 12:30 PM

It is so funny, watching how many people are cracking under pressure, and posting here about the finale!

For the love of all things good vacc, post mon ami! The damn will soon burst!!

#797. Posted by: shikotee at May 30, 2008 12:33 PM

@ Rudy - 794
"I thought there were supposed to only be 2 more crash survivors?"

They said that only eight of them survived the crash... at the time, Aaron was "in Kate's tummy", so he didn't count as one of the eight, but somehow he still counts as one of the six.

Anyway, the point is, when Jack said "Eight" he did not include Aaron. Therefore, three other people survived the crash.

1. Boone Carlyle
2. Libby
3. Charlie Pace

Why them? The world may never know...

But -- As we discussed before -- Charlie was most likely one of them because he talked to Penny. However, since Penny knows the truth, she's not going to tell anyone. I doubt she told anyone that she, Henrik, and Mathias discovered where the island was and therefore probably did not tell anyone about how she talked to Charlie or Desmond.

Boone didn't talk to the "outside world", he talked to Bernard.

Libby... who knows. I doubt they'd keep her for Hurley's sake. I don't remember anything extrememly significant about Libby other than the fact that she was in Santa Rosa with Hugo. But that doesn't explain why she's one of the three.

#798. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 12:35 PM

@ILBLxx

no haters here, hon. I love your posts... esp. the one with all the dialogue between you and your family having dinner on behalf of me... which I cooked on behalf of you.

anyways, you might be able to be 800, Godspeed!

#799. Posted by: Skipper at May 30, 2008 12:35 PM

Happy 800!!

#800. Posted by: shikotee at May 30, 2008 12:38 PM

I can't wait, I have to say it.
POOR SUN!!!! It hurt to watch her in the helicopter. I had hoped Jin was tucked away "safely" on the island.

#801. Posted by: xanadude at May 30, 2008 12:40 PM

Ok.....

Enough nonsense from me!

Got to go to an appointment...

Happy posting in the new thread everyone!

#802. Posted by: shikotee at May 30, 2008 12:40 PM

OH SNAP 800!!! I just noticed!! Did I make it? Or miss it???

#803. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 12:41 PM

AHH! I was too busy thinking than seeing what post # it was on... I WAS SOO CLOSE. NOOOOO...

Whatever... I got 700.

And Skipper -- How was the dinner?

...I guess that's off topic.

It's hard for me to stay on topic. Ugh.

#804. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 12:43 PM

How is it that Walt isn't a give-away that the Oceanic Six are lying?

Wouldn't somebody figure out that this kid was a passenger on the plane?

Or is it simply that he was in Australia and now is in NY where nobody knows who he is / was?

Did he use a different name when he enrolled in his new school? "Welcome Walt Lloyd, wow - that's the same name as that kid that died on Oceanic 815 that you kind of look like, what a coincidence."

#805. Posted by: ilovecharlotte at May 30, 2008 12:43 PM

→ 801. Posted by: xanadude at May 30, 2008 12:40 PM

>>I can't wait, I have to say it.
POOR SUN!!!! It hurt to watch her in the helicopter. I had hoped Jin was tucked away "safely" on the island.

I cried my eyes out when I saw the way Sun was screaming for Jin. I felt it in my bones.... she's some actress. I also cried at the Pen/Des kiss...awww.

for the love of god, vacc!!! Please post!!!

#806. Posted by: Skipper at May 30, 2008 12:46 PM

@ILBLxx
>>And Skipper -- How was the dinner?

It was great, it looked and tasted a lot like pizza, but it was an authentic home cooked Tunisian dinner, I promise ;)

#807. Posted by: Skipper at May 30, 2008 12:50 PM

785/Murr "Then it hit me Widmore must have been on the island, maybe the leader before Ben, moved it and now is trying to get back too!"

Love the idea! You may be on to something.

783/kurgan "It will be interesting to see where the Zodiac winds up. I can't imagine that it made the freighter and they're all dead too. But were they close enough to be moved with the island, or are they stuck in the middle of nowhere?"

The zodiac was seen after the freighter blew (as the island moved) so I assume they were heading back to the island. I bet we see them there in S5.

#808. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 30, 2008 12:55 PM

RE: the "3 who died" lie.

Charlie - broadcasted a response to Penny and could have been overheard.

Boone - broadcasted a call picked up by tailies and could have been overheard.

Libby - I have no idea.

I would have picked Clair due to her pigeon mail. Who knows what happened to that. It will be intersting to see if it pops up again. The bird could have gotton lucky and left the island on a course of 305 and arrived in real time. Otherwise, who knows WHEN it will show up.

#809. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 30, 2008 1:01 PM

@789 lostinVT revealed:

...and to keep it on topic, I screamed out loud twice during last night's ep, much to the surprise of my 10 y.o. who was watching with me......

I'm guessing...

1) Penny on the boat (or the kiss)
2) Locke in the coffin


#810. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 1:01 PM

WOW! 810 posts. (Well, 811 with this one.) A new Lost Blog record! Which I bet will soon be surpassed on Vacc's review.

ATTN MAC: Incidentally, I noticed the pic links on the topc list for Season 1 have gone stale.

Also, everyone: Take a look at the S-1 comments to "Walkabout" (mac's first review) for a little Desmonition-like humor.

#811. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 1:13 PM

@ 810 Posted by: Cecil Rose

I, too, yelled/screamed during those two scenes you listed.

I also gasped loudly:

a. When the opening scene began...
b. When I realized what was going to happen in the ice chamber...

Fantastic finale!!!

#812. Posted by: boodle at May 30, 2008 1:23 PM

from the newspaper article back in season 3 finale....wasn't jeremy bentham survived by one 12 year old son..................Locke doesn't have a kid!!!!!

#813. Posted by: Matt S at May 30, 2008 1:26 PM

@810 - Cecil Rose

Ha, actually, 1/2 right, it was the freighter exploding with Jin onboard which resulted in an extended "Nooooooooooo", and yes, Locke in the coffin - didn't see that coming - total shock and spontaneous verbalizations.....

Wow. and of course, there were many not so loud outbursts, from my child and I throughout that amazing show.. (and surely had nothing to do with the wine)

#814. Posted by: lostinVT at May 30, 2008 1:26 PM

@Cecil Rose - dis I ever tell you I lived in Cary for three years? I love that area - taught at West Cary Middle!

#815. Posted by: meg at May 30, 2008 1:28 PM

Hey Vacc, it's almost season 5. Let's go!

#816. Posted by: Lost is Found at May 30, 2008 1:29 PM

@813 Matt remembered:

>from the newspaper article back in season 3 finale....wasn't jeremy bentham survived by one 12 year old son..................Locke doesn't have a kid!!!!!

1) Maybe disinformation

2) Maybe he had one in the interim period, although I don't think that scene is set 12 years in the future - maybe the island moved to the past?

3) I totally called "Jeremy Bentham" when the scren caps of that frabmentary obit/news story showed up

4) Besides being a philospher, Jeremy bentham, in his will, specified that his body be stuffed and set in a chair so he could still keep an eye on things, and it's there still, today, at University College, London. Maybe Locke's body will serve a similar purpose.

photos.igougo.com/pictures-photos-s2-r1223819-p148066-Jeremy_Bentham.html

#817. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 1:38 PM

Loved the finale...poor vacc is getting lambasted...poor guy is just trying to do the best job he can...I am absolutely sure it'll be great.

Any chance Jeremy Bentham "adopted" Walt?

Maybe Locke/Bentham moved the island, and that's how/why he's in Hoffs/Drawlar instead in the loving arms of Lostville?

#818. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 30, 2008 1:41 PM

@meg

Nope. We rented in Cary for a year before moving to our house in the country about ten miles south. Now Cary's expanded to just a few hyundres feet away, and threatens to absorb our little development, amoeba-like, within a few years.

#819. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 1:41 PM

So Ben said the one who moved the island can't *stay* on the island, and he was wearing his DharmaParka when he entered Superman's Fortress of Ice. (I didn't get a good look at the logo or name on the parka).

Are we supposed to understand that this process somehow ejected him into te Sahara desert, and from thence his war on Widmore began?

Also, who else thinks that Ben's "So?" was a Dick Cheyney call-out?

#820. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 1:46 PM

@meg

hey, you were 815!

great show. After watching Sun's reaction she has become a fav. She has turned a not-so-interesting character into one of my favorites. Hurley is the all time best tho!

#821. Posted by: bean116 at May 30, 2008 1:49 PM

@820. Cecil Rose ---Also, who else thinks that Ben's "So?" was a Dick Cheyney call-out?

I didn't make the connection at the time. But the way you phrased it - well, it cracks me up now.

#822. Posted by: JT at May 30, 2008 1:58 PM

I'll save everyone the time so we don't have to hear people kissing butt.
Vacc, that was a great post.
Ok, done. So let's move on to the show.

#823. Posted by: Lost is Found at May 30, 2008 2:28 PM

@820. Cecil Rose ---Also, who else thinks that Ben's "So?" was a Dick Cheyney call-out?


Nah..? Really? Have they (the producers) used the show to express political views on current events before? if not, then why start now? It was a pretty perceptive point to pick up on your part though... and kinda funny.

VAAAaaaaaaaaac?

#824. Posted by: Skipper at May 30, 2008 2:35 PM

@820 Cecil remembered Ben's Dharma Parka:

Yes, it seems Ben went directly to Tunisia after moving the island, because remember he gashed his arm while falling from the ice ladder. And when he wakes up in the desert he touches his newly bloodlied arm.

#825. Posted by: Matt S at May 30, 2008 2:35 PM

I'm sorry Vacc is taking way too long and I have to get this off my mind....is Charolette Annie? Has this theory been presented or disproved?

Does this mean that Ben hasn't really ever travelled in time prior to this point. So that would mean he just gets fortunate enough to come to nadia's funeral to meet Sayid (didn't look liek there was any setting to select the year to travel on that wheel in the wall). So that means he couldn't have time to kill Nadia and get photos of that other guy to con Sayid....does this mean he didn't con Sayid.....

Oh and I really wanted to see the end of that Dharma video with Halliwax/Candle....poor bunny.

#826. Posted by: Matt S at May 30, 2008 2:45 PM

i don’t think locke is dead. in my opinion i think that him and ben are working together and they thought whats the best way to get every1 back to the island and they came up with the idea of locke pretending to be dead so that this could have an emotional effect on the O6. I don’t think it was a suprise for ben to be next to locke’s ‘dead’ body in the middle of the night. This further makes my theory possible. Anyway just a theory. What do you guys think?…..

#827. Posted by: Jimmy at May 30, 2008 3:09 PM

Okay - let's ease up on vacc. He probablyforgot to watch it last night...:0)

Just for the record guys, I've stayed sober for a WEEK! By the time I get to post tonight (if??) DMWBB So, I'd like to preapologize to you all.


I have many exciting observatins, but most importantly:

1) Aaron's bed is strkingly small.
2) Why didn't Hurley get out of he boat when they were trying to pull it out of the water??

#828. Posted by: meg at May 30, 2008 3:13 PM

→ 828. Posted by: meg

2) Why didn't Hurley get out of he boat when they were trying to pull it out of the water??

Hurley needed the ice chamber to "transport" himself out of the boat.

Also loved the look on Hurley's face when Frank referenced the fuel situation and said "I could sure use another 200 lbs".

#829. Posted by: dharma boy at May 30, 2008 3:22 PM

→ 828. Posted by: meg

That was a toddler bed. Toddler beds use a crib mattress and are a good transition for small children from crib to bed because of their smaller size and usually they are lower to the floor than a twin bed.

#830. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 30, 2008 3:35 PM

I was going to throw this out there to last nights post, but since that doesn't seem to be happening any time soon, I do it on this post.

What is Locke isn't really dead in the coffin. What if Ben and Locke are in on a scheme to get Jack to get them all back to the island. So how is he not dead and everyone thinks he is? They had one of those spiders bite Locke to make him seem as though he is dead. Could be possible.

#831. Posted by: Lost is Found at May 30, 2008 3:48 PM

@831 Lost is Found proposed:

>What if Locke isn't really dead in the coffin. ...They had one of those spiders bite Locke to make him seem as though he is dead. Could be possible.

You mean Mikki and Paulo may yet serve some purpose in advancing the plot?

#832. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 3:52 PM

@ 785. Posted by: Murr

"Then it hit me Widmore must have been on the island, maybe the leader before Ben, moved it and now is trying to get back too!"

I said the same thing while watching last night.

Widmore used to be in charge of the island. He moved the island and handed things over to Ben just like Ben did with Locke last night. That would explain Widmore's "Everything that you have is because of me." comment to Ben during Ben's late night "bedroom visit."

#833. Posted by: ss lostie at May 30, 2008 4:02 PM

Des and Penny sitting on the sea
K-i-s-s-i-n-g
And she's wearing Cindy's scraf!

#834. Posted by: lovelost at May 30, 2008 4:05 PM

-834 ok ok ok...I know there was a typo! Too quick on the Post button.

Cindy's SCARF.

#835. Posted by: lovelost at May 30, 2008 4:07 PM

Loved this episode!!!!!

Cried for Sun & Jin.
Cheered for Des & Penny.
Wanted to smack Ben for not caring about the people on the boat and everything else he's done.
Hope Michael's gone for good, he was right by the blast.
Hope Jin is still here, he was at the end of the freighter, could happen, especially on tv.
I like Jack, but am sick of his whiney, "It is/is not all my fault" crap. If you are a leader, suck it up and lead.
Knew it was Locke only after seeing Ben. Don't really care for Locke, but kinda hope the island heals him again after they all get back.

Now I'll read all the new posts since 9:00 this morning. Would've read sooner, but kids are out of school and had to do the mom thing and take them to see a matinee of Prince Caspian, better than the first, especially on the big screen. (Sorry, not Lost related) Can't wait for vacc's review.

#836. Posted by: LostMamacita at May 30, 2008 4:32 PM

I too, think that Charlotte is Annie! Wouldn't it be sweet for Ben to have his childhood love show up for him to walk off into the sunset with like Des and Penny?!! There is someone for everyone!;-)

#837. Posted by: Bobbi at May 30, 2008 4:46 PM

One overriding theme: closure.

Jin-Sun relationship story arc: over.
Michael-Walt relationship story arc: done
Kate-Jack relationship story arc: most likely fini.
Charlotte-Dan's junior high puppy love: kaput.
Desmond-Penny relationship arc: completed.

Ben & the Others. Lost.
I was hoping Ben would have said to Jack
"We got to get the band back together."

#838. Posted by: welh at May 30, 2008 4:52 PM

@kurgan/ 783
Jack *doesn't* know that everyone is dead. We don't know how many losties went to the freighter & how many were still on the island. If 2 trips were completed (Daniel was still en route with the 3rd), it was only our "hero clique" & about 8 more. That leaves almost 30 still on the island.

And while we're waiting, I'd like to take this opportunity to say,

GRV! Thanks!

#839. Posted by: hurling at May 30, 2008 4:53 PM

→ 777. Alaïs_Longthought: Correcting my own post, because doggone it, my fingers & brain disconnected. Been reading mac's reviews since the beginning—four seasons—& posting for three+ years. Not that anyone probably cares, but I needed to make it right!

#840. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 31, 2008 12:24 AM