The Lost Blog

Key Points from "There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 and 3"

Season 4, Episodes 13 & 14
Episode Air Date: 05/29/08

Point 1
Jack

Kate

 
The Season Four sendoff episode was possibly the densest two hours of LOST ever aired. Let's recap!

This episode picks up exactly where Season Three left us.. With Jack screaming "We have to go back" and Kate driving away.  For those who couldn't get a decent screen cap of Kate's license plate last season, you're in luck. Less than 100 yards down the tarmac, Kate hits the brakes and reverses all the way to bearded Jack.  "We have to go back?", she echoes angrily.

Through Kate we learn that the obituary Jack carried is for Jeremy Bentham - About a month ago, Mr. Bentham approached Kate, but she dismissed him as crazy.  Kate berates Jack for believing "Him of all people".  This narrows our list of potential casket dwellers to someone Jack shouldn't believe.  When Jack explains that he did what Bentham said "because he said that was the only way to keep you safe.. Both you and Aaron" . At the mention of her young Membatan son, Kate slaps Jack and forbids him to ever speak the name of his nephew. Kate is angry at having to explain to the toddler why he will no longer be droned off to sleep with bedtime stories from Dr. Jack.

Kate sets the stage for all the excitement that takes place on and around the Island when she says to Jack  "I spent the last 3 years trying to forget all the horrible things that happened the day we left."  As Kate speeds away again, I take note of the license plate - 4QKD695

Point 2
Sayid

Jack

Hurley

Sawyer
The Island was never really big enough for Jack and Locke. Their already shaky relationship has deteriorated beyond repair since Season Three. It's only fitting that their paths cross one more time before Jack leaves the Island.

Sawyer and Jack continue their trek to retrieve Hurley from camp Locke. When they stumble upon the Orchid, Sawyer respects the leadership structure and asks " What's the plan Sundance?" Before Jack can answer a  ZZZZZZIIIIP! sounds from behind the nearby brush. They find the source of the zip - it's Hurley applying a fresh coat of urine to the nearby bamboo.  He meets Jack's gaze with a "Sorry I went with Locke" expression.  A few relieved hugs later, they turn their attention back to the Orchid. and to Locke - who is still looking for a patch of anthuriums

Lock and Jack's greeting is about as warm as a midfield handshake after a Jets Patriots game. Locke insists on speak to Jack alone. Jack insists he's only there to get Hurley and then get everyone off the Island, but he finally relents and agrees to hear what Locke has to say. 

This works for Hurley, who wasn't too keen on the idea of going back to the chopper. As he put it "Those Rambo Guys are taking Ben to the helicopter". While Jack chats with Locke, Hurley offers Sawyer some 15 year old crackers, assuring him that "they're good".  As Sawyer munches on the crackers, he wished for a 12 year old Dharma beer to go with it. This lighter moment then turns serious as Sawyer has to break the news to Hurley about Claire.

In the Orchid greenhouse, Locke tries to convince Jack that he is SUPPOSED to stay on the Island by playing the "destiny" card.  The pair quickly exchange scorecards "You threw a knife at an unarmed woman"  (point Jack), "You put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger" (point Locke).  Locke accepts that he will never convince Jack to stay, so he pours his energy into illustrating for Jack exactly why it is necessary for everyone who gets off the Island to lie.

A Man of Science and A Man of Faith till the bitter end,  Jack tells Locke "It's just an Island", and Locke replies "It's not an Island. It's a place where miracles happen." What Locke says next is pretty ominous -  "And if you can't believe that, just wait till you see what I'm about to do".  Translation - "Be afraid.. Be very afraid" .  Ben strongly advises Jack to be gone within the hour.

As Jack turns to leave with Sawyer and Hurley, he gets some parting words of advice from Obi-Locke "Lie to them Jack. If you lie to them half as good as you lie to yourself, they'll believe you".

Point 3
Ben

Kate

Sayid

Frank
Keamy and his merry band of mercenaries are marching Ben (I always Have A Plan) Linus to the chopper. Ben surrendered himself to draw  Keamy's men away from the Orchid long enough for Locke to sneak in. During the trek, Keamy gets conversational and asks Ben "What makes you so important?"  He's curious as to why Widmore would pay so much to capture someone.. ALIVE.

Ben has questions of his own, for instance Did Widmora instruct Keamy to kill Alex?
Keamy never answers, as they come upon the helicopter. Lapidus is still cuffed to the chopper, and makes quite a bit of noise trying to free himself. This attracts attention from Keamy, who also notices that the toolbox has moved.  While demanding that Lapidus tell him who gave the toolbox to him, rustling sounds from the nearby trees cuts the conversation short.. Another bush rattles and Kate emerges - she claims to have been running from Ben's peeps. 

Keamy quickly sends his own redshirts (named Kocul Lacour and Redfern) in pursuit - and directly into the Others' trap.  As the wary soldiers scan the jungle floor for evidence of bare feet and stuffed teddy bears, they hear the jungle whispers.  (Now does anyone else here think that the Others responded to one of those "Learn to Throw Your Voice" ads at the back of Walt's comic book?)  While the red-shirts are distracted by the whispers, the ambush begins.  One soldier is jumped from behind and has his neck snapped. Another is tripped up by bolas. A third takes a tazer dart to the neck.  Ben, Kate, and Lapidus crouch during the ensuing crossfire.
Kate whispers to Ben, instructing him to stay close - then she tells Ben to run. They take off together, but before Keamy can even take aim, a faint metallic click signals the arrival of an incoming grenade - which rolls to a stop between Keamy and the helicopter.  (The Others have such an abundance of grenades in their arsenal - leading to rumors that some of the surplus grenades were actually being fed to prisoners).  Lapidus screams "Grenade!", and Keamy boots it away to his unlucky sidekick Omar.. Omar goes BOOM!

Keamy high tails it after Ben and Kate. Ben stumbles down an incline, allowing Keamy to gain on him.  But before Keamy can close the distance, Sayid comes from the blindside and tackles Keamy - and the two roll down a hill to a clearing. What follows is one of the Island's greatest fights ever - easily surpassing Ethan Vs Jack I, and settling a spot or two behind Kate and Juliets mud fight.

Keamy's gun fires left of Sayid's head. Sayid used his breakdancing feet maneuver to disarm Keamy, but before Sayid can squeeze off a round, Keamy kicks away the gun. As they both go after the gun, Sayid snatches a knife from a holster on Keamy's outfit and plunges it in Keamy's back just above his ribs. This evens the fight up for Sayid and he and Keamy fight hand to hand for a while. That goes nowhere, so Sayid picks up a board and whacks Keamy a few times. Keamy eventually gets the drop on his Iraqi foe and begins to choke the life out of Sayid by jamming a board under his neck.

Bang!

Sayid breathes a sigh of relief. Keamy has been shot squarely in the back by 2nd in command Richard Alpert.

Ben thanks Richard for coming - I'm guessing Alpert was the one holding the other mirror. Ben asks Kate to cut him free, then he asks Alpert to spell out whatever deal he struck in exchange for Kate and Sayid's help.  When Alpert tells Ben they were promised to get off the Island. Ben tells them to take the helicopter, and wishes them farewell. Kate's  skepticism forcer her to ask Ben "So we can go? Off the Island? That's it?"

Yep. That's it.

Back at the chopper, Sayid and Kate work to free Lapidus from the handcuffs. Hurley emerges from the woods, followed by Sawyer, then Jack. Kate's eyes first meet Sawyers, then she turns away and tends to the wounded Jack. Sawyer busies himself by grabbing a hacksaw from the toolbox and uses it to help Lapidus break free.
Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley buckle up and Lapidus flies the chopper away.

As they head away from the Island, Lapidus notices that he's not getting very good gas mileage. Sayid confirms that the tank is leaking fuel - having been shot during Ben's escape.  Despite throwing everything that wasn't bolted down off the copter, Frank determines they won't make it to the freighter without dropping another 200 lbs.  Hurley no longer feels the urge to cannonball.  Sawyer leans in towards Kate and whispers something to her - perhaps instructing her about some errand she would need to run one day when Jack was working late.  After a jawdropping kiss goodbye, (Jack's draw dropped the lowest) Sawyer jumps from the helicopter, hits the water, pops back up, and swims towards the Island.

Point 4
Jin

Desmond

Michael

Sun
On the freighter, Desmond, Michael and Jin take a closer look at the explosives they discovered on board.  We learn that Desmond spent 6 months of his Army career on explosive ordnance detail - just enough time to lean how to "blowyuselfup". Although this was likely a punishment for Desmond's bad habit of sneaking away to the year 2004 during drills, Desmond leverages this experience, becoming leader of the bomb squad. After following the stream of wires to a radio receiver, Desmond surmises that the detonation of the C4 mountain is triggered remotely by some device.  The device, we learn, is the one strapped to Keamy's arm.   As they discuss disarming the bomb, Desmond traces the various wires to their end and concludes that they all lead to "Boom".  The bomb is powered by a car battery, but disconnecting it also leads to .. "Boom" Jin chimes in.. Jin's a quick study.

Later on the deck, Sun spots Michael hauling gas. She asks him about the explosives and whether they can be turned off. Michael offers to send Jin out to her, and as he turns to leave, Sun shares the news with Michael that she's preggers.  Michael flashes Sun a quick "it's not mine" look, then congratulates her.

The can Michael was transporting is liquid nitrogen. His plan is to freeze the battery so that the explosives won't detonate immediately once the light goes red. This plan has one serious flaw.. there's only one tank.  Michael freezes the battery while Jin and Desmond start mapping out where all the wires go.  They conclude that all roads lead to boom, and that they need to get everyone off the boat.

But as precious moments tick away on the freighter, the Helicopter arrives, running on fumes and desperately needing a place to land.  After learning of the impending BOOM, Sayid quickly patches the holes and Lapidus fuels up.  Running out of time, Kate, Hurley, Sun, Aaron, Sayid, Desmond and Lapidus take off from the freighter. As the copter rises above the freighter, Jin sprints across the deck and tries to signal their attention.  Michael, who remained behind with the explosives to buy time for the rest, gets a visit.. It's Christian Shephard!  Aaron's dead grandfather greets Michael with a dismissive "You can go now".  A split second later the freighter explodes with a thunderous "BOOM", and Sun screams with grief as she witnesses the death of her husband.  Yes, I believe finally that Jin is dead.  And even if - by some miracle - the Island spared Jin, there is no way that Sun believes Jin is alive.

CUE FLASH FORWARD SWOOSH!

Sun is seen traveling in London. Her cell phone rings - it's her Mom and Ji-Yeon. After talking briefly to her child, Sun locates Charles Widmore and approaches him. Sun introduces herself as the "managing director" of Paik Industries.  Sun has no patience for Widmore's attempt at petty small talk, so she cuts right to the chase. Sun tells Widmore to dispense with the pretense that he doesn't know why the 815ers are all lying. She then delivers this intriguing line - "you and I have common interests, When you're ready to discuss them, call me".  In parting, Widmore asks Sun the very question we all want answered - "Why do you want to help me"
We'll have to wait on that answer.

Point 5
Ben

Locke
Here's the real meat of the episode, the big payoff that follows Cabin Fever's jawdropping moment - when Locke emerged from his powwow with Jacob's spokeperson Christian Shephard and tells Ben that "He wants us to move the Island".   

After Jack and Locke part ways at the Orchid, Locke follows Ben into the Orchid's very own Wonkavator. Ben explains that the elevator can go up,  and sideways, and slantways.. but there was one special button.. one button that Ben had never pressed.. before now..  The elevator goes down... WAY Down, creaking and groaning as it slowly descends. "How deep is this station" Locke asks Ben, who provides this simple answer... "Deep"

Once inside the "real Orchid", Ben flips on some lights and powers up a few assorted gadgets. Locke asks Ben if the Orchid is the magic box. (It Isn't) Growing weary of Locke's incessant questioning, Ben draws on his parenting skills - he sits Locke in front of the TV and pops in a video.   The tape plays..  Hello. I'm Dr. Edgar Halliwax . You might remember me from other Dharma Training films like "The Looking Glass - Good Vibrations" or "The Hydra - Just the Bear Necessities"...   Locke watches intently as Dr. Halliwax /Candle/Wickmund explains that the "unique properties of the Island Created a Casimir effect allowing the Dharma Initiative to conduct experiments with space and time." While holding Bunny 15, Halliwax introduces a large oval shaped chamber called "the vault". which was constructed adjacent to a pocket of Negatively Charged Exotic Matter. As he places #15 in the chamber, Halliwax cautions against placing inorganic objects - especially metals - into the chamber.

While this video plays for Locke,, Ben is hurriedly filling this very chamber with steel trash cans and office chairs.  In the video, the chamber closes around the bunny, as he is about to be shifted 100 milliseconds ahead in four dimensional space - seemingly disappearing for the briefest of moments.  But the tape starts to rewind and we never see what becomes of Bunny 15.   Locke turns his attention back to Ben and asks "You built a time machine? out of a microwave?" 

CLANK The elevator begins to move again.
This time it's Keamy, pulling a page from Mikhael's playbook.  Apparently Keamy's body armor protected him from Alpert's bullet.  Ben hided in the shadows as Keamy starts monologueing - trying to taunt Ben into revealing his whereabouts. Keamy takes this opportunity to inform Ben that the device strapped to Keamy's arm is a heart rate monitor - which is hooked directly into the freighter secret stash of fireworks and set to detonate the moment Keamy's heart stops beating. Keamy warns Ben that by killing Keamy Ben will cause the deaths of innocent people on the freighter.  Keamy then takes it up another notch by taunting Ben with the image of Alex bleeding out after Keamy shot her. Before Ben can respond to that, Locke steps forward and attempts to engage in meaningful exchange of ideas with Keamy.  Keamy, never one for talk, springs forward to kill Locke. Ben emerges from his hiding place, swipes the legs out from under Keamy with his stick, then completely goes Joe Pesci on him punctuating his rant of "You Killed My Daughter"  with repeated stabs to Keamy's neck. 
Locke desperately fights to keep Keamy alive.  When Locke reminds Ben that if Keamy dies, so does everyone on the freighter - Ben replies with an icy "So?"   Keamy, with his dying breath, declares to Ben that Widmore will eventually find him.  Ben replies with a cocky  "not if I find him first".

When Locke screams at Ben "Why did you kill him when you knew it would destroy the boat?", Ben offers this rationalization - "Sometimes good command decisions get compromised by bad emotional responses."   With that, Ben fires up the microwave chamber, and watches as the metal objects spark and erupt inside the chamber. "I'd better change" he says.

And Ben does change - into the same Dharma parka Ben was wearing when he appeared in the Desert. "Where's my coat?" asks Locke.

Ben tells Locke that he won't be going with him. Apparently, Jacob intended for Ben to move the Island.  The reason Jacob told Locke to move the Island, but never told him how was because Jacob wanted Ben to suffer the consequences.  Consequences?  Yes, we learn that the price is quite steep for Ben, because whoever moves the Island can never go back.   Ben gives Locke his torch passing speech, and tells John that the Others will now follow his lead.  They shake hands, and part ways. 

Locke comes upon Alpert and the rest of the Others in the jungle near the Orchid.  They greet him warmly and eagerly. Locke smiles.

Ben picks up a tire iron and heads into the the bunny chamber. The metal that Ben ignited in that chamber had blown a hole through the chamber wall. Ben crawls through this hole, proceeds down a narrow passageway, and climbs down a small metal ladder. At the foot of the ladder is a frosted glass panel, which Ben shatters with his boot. Through this opening is an icy ladder leading down to a heavily iced cavern. As Ben climbs down the ladder, a rung breaks, and Ben crashes to the icy floor below, A piece of jagged metal from the ladder pierced his Jacket and cut his right arm. This is the injury Ben had when he turned up in the desert.

Now I'll pause and give credit to the creators. The code that they've been using to describe the game changing moment of the season finale was "The Frozen Donkey Wheel". Considering that last season's game changer was nicknamed "The rattlesnake in the mailbox", I didn't know what to make out of "Frozen Donkey Wheel" But this year, the name describes the scene in vivid detail. You see, set into the Icy Stone wall was an enormous horizontal wheel - the type that actual donkeys would be attached to and made to pull. Ben uses the crowbar to break up the ice and after several attempts, he is able to get the wheel to budge.

"I hope you're happy now, Jacob" Ben utters as he pushes hard against one of the wheel's handles.

A reverberating sound fills the sky as the frozen donkey wheel begins to move. Ben weeps as he slowly rotates the wheel. With one final push Ben the wheel advances and Ben is engulfed by a bright shimmering light - or perhaps it was pixie dust.  On the Island and in the Helicopter, the light gains in brilliance and is accompanied by a dull pulsating sound. With a final flash of brilliance, the light returns to normal, and there is a brief ripple in the sea where the Island had been only moments ago.

The Island Has Been Moved!!

This poses a problem for those in the Helicopter.. The Island was gone - even the little alcatraz island. Without fuel or a place to land, the chopper crashes into the ocean. A quick thinking Sayid had thrown a raft into the water ahead of time, After a scary moment with Desmond as Jack gives him frantic CPR, all survive the copter crash.

We don't see the raftaways again until after dark. Jack sees Aaron snoozing peacefully in Kate's lap and asks how he's doing. Kate replies that he's doing fine, calling it a miracle. "I can't believe he did it" Hurley interjects "Locke.. He moved the Island". "No he didn't" Jack counters. Apparently the days events still haven't pierced through all of Jack's layers of stubborness. Hurley appeals to Jacks sense of logic - "Oh really? Because one minute it was there and the next minute it was gone. So unless we overlooked it completely, Locke moved it. Unless you have some other explanation" Since the best alternative Jack's mind could muster was to suggest that David Copperfield is on the Benjamin Linus payroll, but before he could suggest this, Lapidus spots an approaching vessel. Sensing that rescue may be iminent, Jack spells it out for the raftaways.. "We have to lie". Yes, Jack is actually following the advice given to him by John Locke... Based on how their relationship hahs deteriorated, this is nearly akin to Sayid working for Ben.

Lapidus: I may be new to this group, but isn't this the place where everybody jumps up and down and starts hugging?

Jack explains that they must lie about everything that happened since the crash. He makes a persuasive argument that anything they say which contradicts the discovery of the staged wreck of 815 will put all of them and anyone still on the Island at great risk. When Kate expresses her concern that they can't pull it off, Jack volunteers to do all the talking.

The boat nears.. Sayid tenses, fully prepared this time should their would-be rescuers pull alongside the inflatable and declare "We're gonna have to take the boy" No worries this time. As the boat nears, we hear some foreign voices but Desmond's ears prick up when he hears one of the crew call out "Ms. Widmore". We see the name on the hull "PENNY'S BOAT", well it actually is called the SEARCHER. Remember that Christmas Eve call Desmond made when he was doing the Eloise shuffle through time? Well, forget all those verizon network guys that come with my phone - Penny's phone plan includes its very own tracking station which enabled Penny to trace the call from the freighter. PENNY'S BOAT hit the water that very day. Their teary and awkward smiley reunion kiss was the one happy outcome in this season finale. After Desmond introduces Penny to everyone on the raft, Jack gets right to business and says "We have to talk".

A week later, Penny's boat nears an uninhabited island in the Lesser Sunda Islands known as Membata - nearly 3000 miles from where she picked up the raftaways. The future Oceanic Six will spend the next 8 to 9 hours catching some rays while drifting towards rescue. Jack says his goodbye's to Lapidus, then Desmond. After warning Demond "Don't let them find you", he tells Desmond "See ya in another life brutha". Desmond replies "Live togehter.. Die alone". The O6 take their seats on the rescue raft and paddle towards shore. Desmond and Penny ride off into their sunset..

Point 6
Faraday

Miles

Charlotte

Sawyer
At the beach, Faraday returns in the Zodiac raft, ready to make another run to the freighter. He believes the freighter is heading closer to the Island. Faraday implores Charlotte and Miles to be on the next raft with him. Despite the direness of Faraday's warning, Miles insists that he's staying. Faraday instructs Charlotte to be ready in ten minutes, then heads towards the zodiac, leaving Miles and Charlotte alone for this interesting exchange.

Miles: "I'm surprised you want to leave. "

This catches Charlottes attention. 'Sorry?'

Miles presses - "All that time you spent trying to get back here."

Charlotte: "What do you mean 'get back here'?"

Miles : (playfully) What do I mean?

This exchange apparently gets to Charlotte because she returns to Faraday and tells him that she's decided to "stay... For now" Despite the direness in Faraday's warning that "For Now" could be "Forever", Charlotte explains that she is "looking for where I was born". Charlotte kisses Faraday goodbye, then watches as he turns to load up more red shirts for another trip to the freighter. Juliet passes on the chance for a ride, saying she intends to stay until everyone is off. Didn't she learn anything when the sub blew up?

Some time after Faraday leaves, Sawyer finally reaches the shore - breathing heavy from the long swim from the helicopter. When he sees Juliet drinking he asks if she's celebrating. But Juliet is drinking for other reasons - namely hopelessness and despair. She directs sawyers gaze towards the burning wreckage of the freighter. "Is that our ride home" Sawyer asks? It was.

Point 7
Sayid

Desmond

Michael

Frank

Kate

Claire
Time to go through the rest of the off-island flashes. 

Walt Visits Hurley

In Santa Rosa, Hurley gets a surprise visit from an old black woman. Actually, the visitor is really Walt. His grandmother just came along to make sure Hurley wasn't dangerous. Plus there was really no one left she would trust to accompany Walt on an airplane.  Assuming that this takes place around three years after leaving the Island, then Walt would be thirteen.  Hurley addresses Walt's growth by remarking "You're getting big dude"


Walt expressed some disappointed that none of the O6 ever came to see him. He then tells Hurley that he was visited by Jeremy Bentham. (Everyone who bet on Michael being in the coffin can safely tear up your tickets now) Hurley explains to Walt that the reason they are all lying is to protect everyone who didn't come back.. Like my Dad? Walt asks.. "Yeah, like your Dad", Hurley answers, unfairly implying that Michael might still be alive.

Sayid Visits Hurley
Outside Santa Rosa, Sayid taps on the glass of a car window. Sayid asks the man inside for the time, then proceeds to shoot the driver in the chest. Sayid enters the mental institution and locates Hurley in the day room - playing chess against an invisible opponent.  Sayid tells Hurley that he is no longer safe at Santa Rosa.. that circumstances have changed by way of Benthams death - which was ruled a suicide.

Hurley responds "Why are you calling him Bentham, his name is..." but Sayid cuts him short, his paranoia is seemingly justified. Hurley agrees to go with Sayid as long as it isn't back to the Island. Just before leaving, Hurley captures the white rook with his queen and declares "Checkmate, Mr Eko".

Kate Gets a Call
Kate is awakened by the phone. She answers and hears nothing but a few clicks. "Hello. Who's there?" she demands to know and this time a voice responds. I couldn't distinguish any recognizable words - (perhaps it was Sawyer speaking in reverse, "selkcerF yeH") Kate hears a door creek down the hall in the direction of Aaron's room, so she puts down the phone, and grabs a handgun she had stashed in a box beneath the spare sheets. That's probably  a violation of her probation. Kate bursts into Aaron's room and sees the figure of a woman beside the boy. Kate points the gun at her and yells "Don't you touch my son!".

The woman turns around to face Kate, and it's .. CLAIRE.   Rather than quibble with Kate over something as trivial as who has the right to scream "Don't you touch my son!", Claire delivers this warning "You can't bring him back, Kate" Claire gets up, walks swiftly towards Kate and says "Don't you dare bring him back!"

Kate's frightened look is quickly replaced by a disoriented look as she awakens in her bed.. Yep, Claire's visit - and I suppose the phone call - was all just a dream. Kate catches her breath. Kate rushes to Aaron's room, and is relieved to find the little tyke slumbering peacefully.
 

Point 8
Sayid

Desmond
Coffin Dweller Revealed

In the episode's closing sequence, Bearded Jack returns to Hoffs Drawler funeral parlor. I presume that he drove there straight after meeting Kate at the airport. The place is already closed and locked for the night, but Jack can't really wait until till morning, so he uses a large stone to smash the door handle. Once inside the funeral home, Jack strolls by a row of caskets, then hovers above one with a blank Body Release Form attached naming the deceased as Jeremy Bentham.  Jack tugs at his hair for a moment, then summons the courage to open the coffin. As Jack peers into the coffin, he is startled by a voice from behind him. "Hello Jack.. " As Jack turns, Benjamin Linus steps into partial shadow, bearing an eerie resemblance to Star Trek's Commander Data.  "Did he tell you I was off the Island?" Ben queries.
"Yes", Jack also tells Ben that both he and Kate were visited by Bentham about a month earlier. Ben presses "And what did he say to you?"

Jack responds "He told me that after I left the Island some very bad things happened and told me that it's my fault for leaving, and that I have to come back. "
 

Ben brings up Jacks recent enthusiasm for air travel. "That's dark Jack, very dark."

Ben explains to Jack that he can't go back alone. The only way for him to return to the Island is for everyone to go..

Jack spouts a reason for each person to not want to go along with this. When Jack starts on Sun with "Sun blames me" , we have to wonder if Jack is the other person Sun holds accountable for Jin's death. 

Ben insists that this is the way it has to be and that he has a few ideas. As jack turns away, Ben says crisply "Jack, I said all of you. We're going to have to bring him too." (Ben motions towards the coffin)..

The Eerie season finale music rises to a screech. Camera pulls forward... first it meets Jack's gaze, then swings above the casket's occupant.

HOLY CRAP - the man in the coffin is JOHN LOCKE!

 

And with that the episode ends. IT ENDS!  After seeing the last "Bad Robot" run across my screen until next January, I stare blankly at my TV. Sniff!

Point 9
Jack

Kate

Sayid

Hurley

Sun

The expanded version of Oceanic Six meet the press made last weeks episode required viewing. Here's what we learn that's new. 

When Jack finishes his story about how only eight of them made it to shore, he is asked "what happened to the other three? You see this reporter did his math correctly. Jack fields the question about the Island deceased and identifies them as

  • Boone Carlysle - died a couple of days after the crash from internal injuries. 
  • Libby, who Jack claimed "didn't make it through the first week".  (Hurley lowers his head at this).
  • Charlie Pace - who drowned a few weeks before they were able to leave.

The trick to successful lying is to believe your own stories. Omitting small details - such as which plane crash Boone sustained his injuries in - can make it less of a lie.

Their story is quickly put to the test when the Korean reporter follows up by asking Sun if her husband was one of the people who died on the Island.  If Korean Reporter had done her math, she would already know the answer from Jack's account. Jack flashes Sun a  - "she's trying to trick you" glance, and Sun replies with a simple "No".  

Also in the expanded press coverage, Sayid reveals that he does not plan to return to Iraq. All Jack wants to do is put his Dad to rest. He may be dead, but Dr. Daddy has been doing anything BUT resting. 

Point 10
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: Hurley  "Checkmate Mr Eko"
  • 2nd Best : Ben - "Sometimes good command decisions get compromised by bad emotional responses".
  • 3rd Best : Rose - (to Miles) I'm gonna keep my eye on you, shorty!
  • 4th Best : Hurley - (When asked by Sawyer what he thinks Locke and Jack are talking about)  - "I dunno, leader stuff."

I have questions and observations but will post these in comments. 
 

That's all I've got! Namaste!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
No new episodes until 2009 ... [quietly sobbing and rocking]

Review by Vacc. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

Getting ready to read review, but in meantime:

I don't remember seeing Rose and Bernard. Were they on or off the island/freighter?

#1. Posted by: Len at May 30, 2008 4:26 PM

The format is messed up....can't read half the text.

#2. Posted by: Len at May 30, 2008 4:30 PM

Whoa, it's really skinny... still reading...

#3. Posted by: The Duf at May 30, 2008 4:31 PM

help! points 1 and 2 are being cut off by the boxes at the side! anybody have any suggestions????

#4. Posted by: surefoot at May 30, 2008 4:33 PM

Please fix the margins...it's impossible to read the first part!

#5. Posted by: ss lostie at May 30, 2008 4:35 PM

I can't read half of it either. Hope the format gets fixed. I'll be checking back later.

#6. Posted by: Lynne at May 30, 2008 4:35 PM

Here's what I think Season 5 will be about. Ben will somehow convince the Oceanic 6 to get on a plane so they can crash on the island. Jack in his drunken stupor will probably seriously hurt himself, let's say he goes to the bathroom stoned on pills and drunk on vodka to throw up. While opening the door, he'll knock over a jar of bleach and blinding himself. Then, he and other members of the Oceanic 6 will get on a plane with Locke's coffin and fly to Paris, for example. On their way there, they will experience turbulence and crash on the island. Then mysteriously Jack will be able to see again. And he will see Locke just like he saw Christian Shepard.

#7. Posted by: Mr. Cube at May 30, 2008 4:37 PM

You can copy it and paste it in a word document and it looks normal. That's what I did.

Wendy

#8. Posted by: wendy at May 30, 2008 4:37 PM

The last time I saw Rose was when she said something to Daniel... Formatting up there is an issue, I'm getting Bug Eyed like Ben... O^O

#9. Posted by: Ted at May 30, 2008 4:38 PM

We never saw Bernard, but Rose was upset with Miles for munching on the Dharma peanuts...I guess we are to assume they are both still on island...Where ever the island is.

#10. Posted by: Jennifer at May 30, 2008 4:42 PM

Thanks to Wendy. Pasting it into Word works fine.

#11. Posted by: Lynne at May 30, 2008 4:44 PM

Didn't Daniel say the he had just ferried the last of the survivors to the freighter? If so, Rose and Bernard had to have been left to perish in the explosion. I didn't see either one on the raft when the explosion occurred. Maybe Rose and Bernard remained with Jules on the island.

#12. Posted by: Len at May 30, 2008 4:46 PM

Reposting from other thread. . .

Hey Everyone, I don't usually post because by the time i get to it everyone else has said much smarter things then I ever could. But here goes. . .

Last night episode was awesome. . .so much happened, but the last scene stood out to me when John was revealed. I said aloud "he moved the island again" and he was trying to get everyone together to go back, even Walt (who's like 30 now).

Then it hit me Widmore must have been on the island, maybe the leader before Ben, moved it and now is trying to get back too!

Or I could be wrong. . . who knows?

Also did anyone catch the commercial during the last break?? I was fast-forwarding and thought it looked fake and it was. It wanted you to visit - http://www.octagonglobalrecruiting.com/

What does that mean?? I'm so bad at figuring those out.

#13. Posted by: Murr at May 30, 2008 4:46 PM

Wow! I haven't even started drinking and already I can't see straight...:)

Wait...maybe the drinks are meant to HELP me understand.

#14. Posted by: meg at May 30, 2008 4:48 PM

Wow, that's quite a recap. Look forward to reading through it later tonight when I get home from work and the kids are asleep, and I haven't even gotten a chance to watch last night's ep because I had a conference call. I'm gonna be up until sunrise at this point just to catch up!

Woo hoo!

#15. Posted by: LostedIt at May 30, 2008 5:01 PM

I know one thing - I’M GLAD I’M NOT DOING THE REVIEW FOR THIS EPISODE!!!!! Good Heavens Vacc, I surprised we didn’t hear your brain explode sometime around 7 AM this morning! Talk about a seismic shockwave!

YOU ARE RIGHT. This episode has a density level of about 17 miles! But even with the questions remaining, a lot was wrapped up last night. At least for the moment.

Thanks for stepping in for MAC today. Go to bed and wake up when it’s next season.

I’m going to jot down a few notes and then go and watch the whole show again.
I’ll check back for all the comments later tonight. Thanks again vacc, for picking up the slack. (whoops - I’m a poet and didn’t even know it . . . )

1. Today’s ABC Good Morning America showed two alternative endings to last night’s episode - One with Sayid in the coffin and the second with Desmond in the box (THAT would have been terrible considering how long we’ve been waiting for the Penny/Dez reunion!) Afterall, he’s the guy who said he was NEVER going to go back to that island . . . I assume dead or alive.

2. So who’s the DOOFUS who writes the captions for the “enhanced” episodes? After informing us that one of the previous episodes was named after the “Wizard of Oz”, the “captioneer” then writes . . “The Wizard of Oz is also a story about people trying to get home from a faraway land.” . . Good Grief, Toto-Brain! If you’re smart enough to wade through LOST, I think you probably know the story behind the Wizard of Oz . . . . Except for little Mongolian children and lost tribes in the Amazon, is there anyone who doesn’t know this story? duh.

3. Charlotte has been on the island before. Is she ANNIE? Noooo . . probably not. Too young.

4. It would appear that Michael and Jin die. (Nice job on Hurley’s part to lie to Walt about his Dad’s fate. Maybe we haven’t seen the last of Walt yet . . .)

5. So - weird allegiance being alleged with Widmore and Sun . . . Maybe it’s not Widmore she blames as the OTHER MAN who killed Jin. Some bloggers this morning have ventured that it’s Jack . . . but I wonder if it’s not BEN. Afterall, why NOT team up the man who’s spending billions to find and destroy him?

However, I would hate for Sayid and Sun to come to that deadly turn in the road.

6. I enjoyed reading FenwayBen’s blog last night. (I stayed up late listening to my university team play for the NAIA National Baseball Championship) He was asking about what happened to the folks in the Zodiac, among others.

So where are Faraday and those six RedShirts in the raft. Sucked up in the island move? Hope so . . . because with the freighter blown to pieces and the isle evaporated in the mist, there just aren’t a lot of possibilities for landfall in the near future for those folks! Like FenwayBen, I hope Bernard and Rose weren’t on that craft!

7. How about that scene of the exploding freighter!?! Acting-wise, the gal playing Sun was unbelievable! I wanted to rip my own heart out watching her!

And then there was Sawyer’s sacrificial leap! No doubt in my mind that he told Kate about his daughter. Watching everyone’s faces was stunning - especially Hurley . . you could see the guilt about being the heaviest guy on the chopper in his eyes. No wonder he’s mental now! It ALL just keeps piling on.

8. As suspected, the website for Octagon Global Recruiting is part of the Dharma Initiative. I didn’t submit my name to see where it goes . . . I was afraid they might pick me for rabbit number 16!

9. Moving the Island? Nice wheel, Ben! But, into the past or into the future? (Of course - what a great episode for answers - now we know where Ben, lying in the desert, got the parka and the arm wound . . . Nice “bring it together” on the writers part.

10. And IF the next two seasons are all about getting EVERYONE back to the island, then does that mean that we will eventually see a Kate/Sawyer and a Juliet/Jack hookup reunion? It would seem to be the logical future-forward. I guess we’ll know in 28 months.

#16. Posted by: davidrh at May 30, 2008 5:02 PM

Great line vacc - about Ben's parenting skills. I was thinking the same thing!

Okay... a few observations:

1. Who is definitely on the island? I guess Rose and Bernard are unknown.
2. Who is the redhead? Was she born on the island? Has she seen Ben yet? If she is Annie, wouldn't Ben know?
3. Why is Walt so old? He looks like he's almost 20!
4. Are Penny and Des hiding from Daddy now?
5. Were the sounds associated with moving the island similar to those the smoke monster made?

I don't know, but I lost all desire for Keamy here in this episode. If only he wouldv'e just lept his mouth shut.

Ben was definitley hot in this episode...:)

#17. Posted by: meg at May 30, 2008 5:07 PM

Vacc,

Your reviews have a "wide stance". Be careful not to tap your toes, at least in Minnesota. (:-P)

#18. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 5:10 PM

Oh, two more things:

Maybe Jin isn't really dead...we never saw bodies (okay, I admit I am just wishing here)

I agree with doch above when he says the other person Jun blames may not be Jack. Jack never finished his sentence...Sun blames me for....????

I think it HAS to be BEN!

#19. Posted by: meg at May 30, 2008 5:11 PM

For those of you who love jumbles... what words could be made from the mortuary name Hoffs Drawler?

#20. Posted by: JANET at May 30, 2008 5:13 PM

Vacc, good job! Thanks so much for pinch-hitting for mac.

Just a couple of quick comments:

I had originally thought that it would be Abbadon in the coffin, using the name Bentham.

When I saw Locke in the coffin, the first thing that came to mind was "It's a Locke in a box." (I assume w/socks.)

So if the O6 have to take Locke w/them to get back to the island, does that mean that a corpse in a coffin is a/the trigger to finding the island?

If it's a requirement to off one's father to become the island leader, was Locke voted off the island because he wasn't actually the one who killed Cooper, & Jacob found out that Locke was deceitful? Or perhaps Richard, who was the one who gave Sawyer's dossier to Locke in the first place, knew that Locke hadn't done the deed himself & played that card to totally discredit Locke in the eyes of the Others & Jacob?

Looks like the DUI curse struck again. RIP, Jin.

Saw this comparison on a review of the finale earlier today—Sawyer as Sydney Carton from A Tale of Two Cities, who sacrificed himself to save the husband of the woman he loves.

Ben sure does look like Data!

#21. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 30, 2008 5:13 PM

Wow... sure seems that Miles had knowledge of the freighters looming demise, and curious that Jules was is no hurry to leave as well.

Daniel took the chauffeur duties to stall and ensure he'd never make it to the freighter, and
it didn't take much to convince Charlotte to jump ship as well.

More ammunition that this group again seem to always know a lot more than they ever let on.

#22. Posted by: NorCal Mark at May 30, 2008 5:18 PM

My format looks pretty good at 5:25 EDT.

Excellent recap VACC. I was only able to watch 3/4 of the last episode last night and so need to sit through it again. Well, maybe 13 times. I have to confess that I was excited to learn that Jeremy Bentham was in the coffin since the last time I saw him, he was stuffed and sitting on a chair in a glass box at University College in London. It now seems to be de rigueur to name Lost characters after famous dead people with intriguing traits for being famous.

In spite of all evidence to the contrary, I think there is a chance Jin is alive. I say this not out of an emotional need but because his quest to be reunited with Sun would make for interesting drama.

I am still bothered by Christian Shepard being the incarnation of the island Karma. Why him? Writers better have a good answer for that one.

But I am really looking forward to the new story line of the return to the Island and to what has been happening on the Island.

Meanwhile, time to watch the episode.

#23. Posted by: August Paul at May 30, 2008 5:28 PM

Just noticed this was here... reading it now.

BUT... I have to reply to a few things from the part 1 page.

I was screaming "GOT 'EM!!!" the whole episode.
1. WHen Jin died
2. When Walt visited Hurley
3. WHen Ben stabbed Keamey
4. When Locke was watching Ben and the Orientation film simultaneously
6. When Sun visited Widmore
7. When Widmore mentioned he golfed with Paik (I've been waiting for that)
8. When we saw Henrik then Penny
9. And... when Locke was shown in the coffin

(not in that order)

@ Jimmy - 827 (TNPLH PT1)
Doubt it.

Did anyone else think that Locke's legs were cut off or something -- that would explain the tiny coffin.

@ Meg - 828 (TNPLH PT1)
"2) Why didn't Hurley get out of he boat when they were trying to pull it out of the water??"

1. Maybe he ran out of breath and he figured he'd pass out and collapse if he stepped out of the raft.
2. He felt the bad luck would come if he touched Membata and he'd get shot by a native.
3. He was afraid the numbers will attack him (like all the objects in his party)

RE: Enhanced Episode
Revealed:
1. Boone Carlyle - Suffered internal injuries
2. Charlie Pace - Drowned a few weeks before they left
3. Libby - Didn't make it a few weeks

How did that make sense when the Korean lady asked Sun if Jin was one of the three that died on the island? (Jack already said who the other three were).

Now I'm going to read Vacc's most likely amazing review.

#24. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 5:28 PM

So I thought it was just my computer that screwed up the format... so I refreshed the page like a billion times and it didn't help.

Then I read that everyone else had the same problemo.

Now I must wait more.

#25. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 5:32 PM

Man! No Michael in coffin- No Sha-Mizzled!

When I threw out my "Walt must kill Michael" theory on the last blog, I missed a very obvious fact- he already was responsible for Michael's death, as explained in "Meet Kevin Johnson".

It was Walt's rejection of Michael that put him on the path of suicide and his eventual end on the freighter- in almost the exact fashion of Jack's rejection of his father leading to Christian traveling to Australia and drinking himself to death.

Kudos to Clementine for pointing out that emotionally, Walt directly killing Michael would not "fit". While Ben has no problems killing his father personally, and Locke can kill his father not with his own hand but with someone else's, the more compassionate Jack and Walt destroy their fathers by withholding their love, i.e. repudiating their relationship.

#26. Posted by: Mizzed at May 30, 2008 5:33 PM

Several web sites have audio + video of Kate's phone call...backwards and forwards. It says something like...you have to get back to the island before it is too late. I can't tell who the voice is though. At first I thought Sawyer, but now I don't think so...anyone?

#27. Posted by: ss lostie at May 30, 2008 5:34 PM

→ 20. Posted by: JANET "For those of you who love jumbles... what words could be made from the mortuary name Hoffs Drawler?"

This was a clue from the season finale last year when Jack first visited the funeral home- it's an anagram for Flash Forward.

#28. Posted by: Mizzed at May 30, 2008 5:38 PM

Nevermind... I did the copy and paste thing. Now I'm reading!!!

#29. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 5:39 PM

@ ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Do the cut and paste to a word document thing...it works.

#30. Posted by: ss lostie at May 30, 2008 5:39 PM

my first post: Please fix the format. It can't be read. Been waiting all day for this recap. "Thank you" to Mac for recaps all season.

#31. Posted by: Olle-Em at May 30, 2008 5:41 PM

If John Locke/Jeremy Bentham visited Jack and Kate off island, it's a good bet that he also visited Sun. I'm guessing that Locke told Sun that the freighter (and Jin) blew up because Ben killed Keamy. Ben then becomes the second person responsible for Jin's death, leading Sun to want revenge on Ben. This would explain how Sun's interests would be aligned with Widmore's.

#32. Posted by: Jimmy Puma at May 30, 2008 5:42 PM

***** SPOILERS *****
Oh my gosh so many Qs....and observations

1. I’m keeping a candle lit for Micheal and Jin. I'll take it to the bank. We SAW Boone die, his sister (cant rememebr her name dont care enough to look it up) , Eko, random losties but we didnt see Mike or Jin die. I think its open. Christian could have given Michael a little time to at least jump off the ship. The island time thing is always screwy. And it seemed they made a point to show Jin at the very FAR end of the boat right before the bomb exploded.

2. I can’t believe Locke is dead, he never gets a break, and why did the island let him die? It wouldn't let Michael kill himself? Does the island want to take over his body like it did Christian?

3. Again Jin isn't dead. I hope he isn’t. The Island took him with it., this is Bens leverage to get her back to the island.

4. So was that Claire telling Kate not to go back or Kate’s subconscious. Seems the new relaxed Claire was all about the island vibe.

5. Maybe that flashback of Locke’s birth thru the eyes of Alpert ….was actually a flashforward for Alpert, and when he asked “ pick the items that belong to you” , He meant like now, this life in 40 years or so.

6. Jack you are still my hero, even dark black bearded Jack ….

7. Why did Sayid seem bothered almost on the verge of tears looking at Kate after fighting with Keamy… I thought I missed something.

8. Protect who? Who is left on the island? For sure all we know is Juliet , Sawyer, Others people that don’t need protection I don’t remember who was on the small boat with Faraday. Seems like all the no named losties were boated to their death/ Maybe Jin, Michael other losties on the freighter ???

9. Why didn’t anyone warn the other people about la bomba on the freighter while the helicopter was getting fueled? There were life rafts Desmond was reaching for when he saw the helicopter. I didn’t see any when they panned back at the explosion from the helicopter.. WTH !!!

10. Seemed like a lot of trouble to go thru just to put a whole in the wall to get to the Donkey Wheel, why not just take an axe to it.

11. If the Others were back Rambo style why did they need Kate and Sayid to capture the mercs? Why the need to ‘ make an arrangement”?

happy postin'

#33. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 30, 2008 5:45 PM

@ JaneSweetz:

Those aren't spoilers. That's just speculation on your part.

#34. Posted by: Callan at May 30, 2008 5:55 PM

@ Jimmy Puma

I TOTALLY agree ..

She wants to hunt Ben down...

#35. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 30, 2008 5:56 PM

Why would Michael die from the explosion? Isn't his whole deal that he couldn't die no matter what he tried? He's probably alive.

#36. Posted by: ChrisTofer at May 30, 2008 6:00 PM

Wowsers!!!!

What a great finish to the season. I have posted some negative comments about the direction of the show this season, but the writers redeemed themselves with the finale. I still wonder about the future plot lines, but I will continue my alligance.

1. How can it be Locke if you can't die of the island? I hope someone can answer this question for me. my only guess id that he is faking his death to get the the SIX to return.

2. Which side is Sheppard on? I get this feeling that he is the opposite of Jacob , and more than just a messenger.

3. What college has Walt committed to? He is huge.

#37. Posted by: TruRuan at May 30, 2008 6:02 PM

@ Callan

Thanks , I didnt know wanted to be sure ... I didnt want to anger the blog gods...

#38. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 30, 2008 6:02 PM

I want to know what happened on that boat for a week...hopefully a future episode might explain this. The last time the viewers saw Ben see Widmore, Ben threatened Penny's life. The last time the viewers saw Jack see Desmond, he told him "Don't let him find you"...Who will get to Penny first??? Ben, while they are hiding from her dad? Or her dad, trying to warn her while they are hiding from her dad?

I loved, loved, loved the scene with Jack and Locke outside the Orchid station. In the showdowns of all showdowns between the man of science and the man of faith, it looks like we finally have our winner...faith - he was right all along... Then why is it Locke in the coffin? Is that really Locke? Or when Ben turned the big wheel, was some sort of alternate island reality created, thus spawning and evil Locke? As in the Bad Twin?

We have even more confirmation about why Alpert would visit Locke as a boy...it is his destiny to lead the natives of the island. He just had to have the faith that the answer would be revealed to him. As intriguing as it was to learn that Locke could walk again in the pilot, who knew that the end of season 4 would explain that even further.

As someone mentioned in a previous post, I thought it rather odd that Juliet wasn't the first one in the boat to get the hell out of there. I also felt as though she and Daniel shared a glance that suggested they might know a lot more about each other then they are letting on to. Did anyone else catch that?

As far as Ben telling Jack that they all must go back, even Locke, then wouldn't that include Desmond? Walt? Frank?

A few random thoughts...I like how Sawyer - just like the original loyal friend and misfit Tom Sawyer - sacrificed himself for the sake of the rest of his friends. I like how Ben went "through the worm hole" that the vault left behind once it exploded/imploded - a nice connection to parallel universe/time travel theories. And lastly, I jumped for joy seeing Walt (even though he looks ridiculously older) and just hearing Eko's name....looking forward to possibly more of them in episodes to come.

Can't wait to see where the heck this thread winds up...

:)

#39. Posted by: Vikki at May 30, 2008 6:03 PM

Vacc -- Awesome review! I knew you could do it!!! It is now evident why it took so long to write. =]

So much detail. I loved it.

I have a lot to say, but I wanted to point out one thing... Why did the Swan orientation video say "3 of 5" and this one say 6 of 6. Guess because it's a "secret station"?

So why does Miles know what Ben is capable of, but Keamy doesn't? Probably because he's some sort of psychic, but the way Miles said that to Ben was as if everyone knew.

That Sayid vs. Keamy scene was simply amazing. Very Bourne Ultimatium. Now we got two Jason Bournes.
1. Benjamin Linus <3
2. Sayid Jarrah

It seems like Locke "accepts" who Ben is. He didn't have much of a surprising reaction when Ben said the "So?" line, or any other time when he should be surprised.

Jin seemed really good at English. He understood all the big words Desmond and Michael were saying.

Right when he finally learns to communicate... BOOM.

So I guess that's why Sun isn't at any of the O6 "gatherings". She blames Jack for something.

At least she and Hugo are still close.

I was thinking that Charlotte was Annie as well. But then I realized that she has an accent, and I don't remember Annie having an accent. I guess she could have developed it over time.

I laughed when Jack tried to say "brotha"... I guess it was a nice thing to say to Desmond though. -- Considering the fact that when Desmond first said it to Jack, they "randomly" ended up seeing each other on a deserted island. (another life?)... looks like we eliminated the hell theory.

Miles is awesome. He's almost as cool as Ben... but not. I would totally date a (younger) Ben version of Miles.

Sorry I repeated some things that Vacc wrote in one of my previous posts.

I will now read the posts.

#40. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 6:30 PM

→ 27. Posted by: ss lostie: "Several web sites have audio + video of Kate's phone call...backwards and forwards."

The exact translation is "The Island needs you. You have to go back before it's too late". This is one of the most important scenes of the show- Kate receives a dream vision that both tells her to go back (the phone call) and to not go back (Claire).

Clearly, there are two competing forces here, both with some level of supernatural ability to communicate to the Oceanic 6, whether in dreams or as "ghosts".

If you accept the basic premise that destiny/the Island/the correct timeline required the Losties to be on flight 815, that they have a purpose on the island, and that the Oceanic 6 left before fulfilling that purpose, meaning they must return, that means:

1. Locke has been correct the entire time. Each time he has trusted his instincts, even when it required actions like destroying the submarine or killing Naomi, he was working towards the correct path. The one time he lost faith- refusing to let the numbers be pushed on the hatch- appears now to be a mistake if it led to the freighter being able to locate the island.

His belief is so strong, at a future point he will essentially sacrifice himself to get the group back to the island.

2. The visit from the ghostly Charley to Hurley are also "right"- the island does need them, they are supposed to go back, and Jack is not supposed to enjoy his domestic bliss with Kate and raise Aaron, because Aaron is also required to go back to the island.

3. The visit from Claire to Kate is "wrong", and is being generated by the opposing force. In fact, all of her actions appear to be wrong since the mercenary attack at the compound. She is either possessed, or similiar to Yemi, she is dead and her appearance is being used by some other force.

4. Christian (or something using his image) is not speaking for Jacob and is part of the opposing force. It is Christian who led Claire astray, seperating her from her baby (leading to Aaaron being one of the 6), and Christian, claiming to be speaking for Jacob, who told Locke to move the island (making it impossible for the 6 to return).

This is consistent with the one time Locke saw Jacob, when he heard "help me" as though Jacob was a prisoner or under some sort of spell or attack.

It is Christian's appearances to Jack post-rescue that start his descent into drug addiction and helplessness.

Note also that if Ben had originally given Michael a real bomb, the freighter never would have made it to the island, i.e. no escape. Christian releases Michael only after the helicopter safely makes it off the freighter.

4. Ben is not what he seems. For four years, viewers have been led to believe that Ben is working with the Others to protect the island. However it is Ben that gives Michael the boat, allowing Walt to leave the island, and Ben who gives the 6 the helicopter, allowing Aaron to leave the island.

Ben attempts to murder Locke when he finds that John can communicate directly with Jacob. It is Ben who pysically moves the island, making it impossible for the 6 to return- and affecting his own escape to where he can now manipulate events off-island.

In fact, I now suspect we've been brilliantly hoodwinked by some great writing- most of our information on the Others, Widmore, Dharma, the Island, etc- comes from Ben, a classic unreliable narrator. He is the ultimate manipulator, the ultimate deceiver. He has repeatedly lied not only to the survivors, but to his own people. He has shown no humanity and no remorse, and places no value on human life. He claims affection for Alex and Juliet, but treats them as possessions and kills those who would come between him and them.

5. We really know nothing about Widmore. I believe viewers have been led to believe he is evil, but our source has been Ben. It is Ben that tells everyone that the mercenaries will kill everyone and destroy the island, but in their actions, their only target is Ben- others are killed by Keamy as emotional blackmail to get Ben to surrender, which he does not do until his plans are in place.

We have also not be shown any scenes between Keamy and Widmore, Gault and Widmore, or Naomi and Widmore to verify his intentions towards the island. Is it possible that Widmore didn't even send the freighter, or stage the fake crash? Gault and Keamy could have met with anyone claiming to be Widmore, while Naomi met with Abaddon, so everyone must be considered an unreliable source until we learn otherwise.

#41. Posted by: Mizzed at May 30, 2008 6:42 PM

I want to believe that Jin is not dead -did we ever figure out in ep "Ji Yuon" the flash forward when Sun had the baby and Jin's was a flash back what all that meant - I'm sure there is clue in there somewhere as to his fate.

#42. Posted by: liz at May 30, 2008 6:43 PM

On Jeremy Bentham: Locke's new nom de guerre is very, very signficant. Far ore so than the fun Rousseaus, Humes, Lockes, and Bakunins scattered throughout the show.

Not just because the historical JB, 18th-19th century philosopher and social reformer, had very curious ideas indeed on the usage that should be made of the preserved bodies of our deceased loved ones. And not just because the historical JB's own body (sans head) is indeed, to this day, viewable in some London museum, in a glass and WOODEN case. And not just because the historical JB, Utilitarian extraordinaire, was influenced by philosopher John Locke.

It gets way better. Bentham is well-known students of modern social theory, history, or philosophy, largely through the work of Michel Foucault. MF made famous Bentham's "panopticon" prison model: a design that allowed a warden to observe prisoners without the prisoners themselves knowing, at any given moment, whether or not they were being watched. This was to create in the prisoners a sense of invisible omniscience watching over them. The prisoners would then incorporate this awareness - its self-conscious and self-disciplining mentality - into their most basic sense of themselves. The panopticon's basic model was replicated in many other modern, hierarchical social institutions and was deemed, by MF, to have had a profound effect on modern consciousness as a whole.

All of this melds perfectly with the show's recurring eye-ball motif, with the omniscience theme - being in more than one place at a time, etc. - and with the pervasive paranoia that envelops the Losties and, especially it would seem, our Oceanic 6.

And ironically, it may even explain something that kept bugging me last night. Why would Oceanic 6 refer to Locke, even among themselves, as "Bentham" when they have always known him, through all their bonding island good times together, as Locke? I'm guessing they have been instructed to never refer to Locke by name, and that they comply with this, even to each other, out of self-regulating paranoia; as with the panopticon, they never know, at any given time, if they are being watched by some seemingly omnniscient force.

Anyway, I'm totally amazed that these Benthamite-Foucauldian themes are being played with on one of tv's most popular shows!

#43. Posted by: iheartsayid at May 30, 2008 6:46 PM

The second man Sun holds responsible for Jin's death? Got to be Charles Widmore...it was his men and his boat that most directly caused Jin's death. Widmore assumes that she wants to help him (she being a woman and all), but she never said that, just that they had shared interests. Maybe Sun will blackmail him, she obviously isn't afraid to play with the big boys and hits them where it really hurts, taking their power away.

#44. Posted by: Gail at May 30, 2008 6:53 PM

another great line when Ben returns to the Orchid to Locke "You couldn't find the anthuriums?" Locke "I don't know what they look like!"

#45. Posted by: liz at May 30, 2008 7:01 PM

So, I'm watching the finale over again right now and have some questions. Daniel has been frantically trying to get himself, Charlotte and Miles off the island (NOW) since he heard mention of the Orchid in the conversation they listened to on the phone/tracker that Lapidus dropped off the helicoptor. Initially, I thought that he knew things were going to go down at the Orchid with the mercenaries, Ben, etc. Guess it's dawning on me that he is so frantic because he knows that the Orchid is where you go to "move the island". And if he knows this and needs to get off the island PDQ...then he must know what happens when the island is "moved". He must know what happens to the people on the island when it is "moved". What happens...? It seems to me it's pretty bad...

#46. Posted by: boodle at May 30, 2008 7:03 PM

@ 41/mizzed:

Interesting take on the visit from Claire to Kate as "wrong" and generated by an opposing force.

...And speaking of "wrong," was it just me, or did Claire speak with a distinctly American accent last night? The actress is Aussie so it's doubtful it was just a stumble by Emilie de Ravin. And on this show, a little detail like a change in accent always ends up meaning something down the line. But maybe I imagined it.

#47. Posted by: iheartsayid at May 30, 2008 7:04 PM

...and lets not forget the Sawyerism to Frank "Hey Kenny Rodgers".

#48. Posted by: NorCalMan at May 30, 2008 7:05 PM

Honestly Vacc, I started reading the comments but I feel like I need to take a nap because my brain is drained from your amazing review.

RE: Good Morning America -- Alternate Endings

I heard they just do three different endings so that the actors don't know which one they're going to pick. I guess more security issues.

... But Damon and Carlton always knew which one it would be. This was just to confuse everyone else.

I'm so tired, but I must add to previous posts.

@ meg - 17
"2. Who is the redhead? Was she born on the island? Has she seen Ben yet? If she is Annie, wouldn't Ben know?"

... Charlotte was with "Camp Locke" when she first landed on the island. Ben gave everyone a detailed description of her and she didin't look very surprised.

Who is she? I have no idea... but I am curious.

"Ben was definitley hot in this episode...:)"

HECK YES. Especially at the end at the funeral parlor with Jack... mmm... OH and when he was pushing the "Frozen Donkey Wheel"... DANGG.

------------------------

Guess what everyone??? I've converted to "Lostinism"... I'm LOSTish!!!

I believe in "Jacob".

------------------------

I wonder why the island let Locke die.

@ iheartsayid - 43
Very interesting.

#49. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 7:09 PM

Re: Annie/Charlotte connections:

Charlotte's clearly too young to be Annie, but is she young enough to be the love child of teen-aged and hormone-charged Ben and Annie? (Was there ever a time when children could be born on the island?)

Granted, Ben has not shown any recognition of Charlotte as anyone with prior island history, but presumably Charlotte was sent away to safety at an early age during the island's interregnum era. And, oh sweet irony, maybe in the future he'll kill Charlotte, thus not once but twice inadvertently causing the death of a daughter!

#50. Posted by: iheartsayid at May 30, 2008 7:30 PM

Hi guys!

First off: Vacc, you da man! Thanks so much for your help.

Second: I'll chime in later with some thoughts (still processing ... still stuck at a conference ... BOOO!)

Third: Are the folks who were seeing formatting errors still seeing them? If so, drop me a line directly at mac at filmfodder.com. I'm trying to fix 'em.

#51. Posted by: mac at May 30, 2008 7:43 PM

What's this extended news conference footage everyone is talking about? Was this part of the enhanced episode last night? Is there a link online to any of this? Thanks!

#52. Posted by: Vikki at May 30, 2008 7:47 PM

@ iheartsayid: Thanks for that. I was trying to figure out how to talk about Bentham and Foucault in regard to Locke and Lost, and you did a great job of putting it all down in readable (and understandable) language.

But I also wondered about Bentham's status at college councils of the U of London ("present but not voting," I think is how they describe him). The presence that maintains, even after death, seems significant here.

What an ep! Thanks, VACC!

#53. Posted by: pkittle at May 30, 2008 8:02 PM

did any one else notice that when ben was pushing the wheel the sounds were similar to when desmond had to flip the switch at the end of season 1? so maybe locke caused the island to move already?

#54. Posted by: toni at May 30, 2008 8:07 PM

@ iheartsayid 50: My thoughts exactly. Is it also possible that Annie died during labor, and for whatever reason, Ben was told the baby died also only to be sent off the island? Could this be @ the hands of Richard & the others? Perhaps this is the reason Ben became Alex's father (as a replacement for the lost daughter)
On a similar note, did the original obit for Jeremy Bentham say that he had a teenage son. If this holds up, did Locke have a son? Also, does he even know about him?

#55. Posted by: RazzleDazzle at May 30, 2008 8:17 PM

okay,
WTF

1st off claire is not dead.
Desmond told charlie that if he drowned as fate had told it claire and aaron would get into a chopper and leave the island.
So either desmonds a big fat liar or the writers have something up their sleave

2nd micheals dead
as in an interview it states how he was upset to come back just to die
how sad, no micheal and walt reunion

3rd is it just me or is jack a twat
=]
xx

#56. Posted by: Hayley at May 30, 2008 8:28 PM

O==================================
@vacc

> As Jack turns to leave with Sawyer and Hurley, he gets some parting words of advice from Obi-Locke "Lie to them Jack. If you lie to them half as good as you lie to yourself, they'll believe you".

Yeah, he said it. But he never explains WHY it’s necessary, or HOW it keeps anybody safe. Did these people learn nothing from “& Days of the Condor”? Straight to the New York Times, sez I.


>During the trek, Keamy gets conversational and asks Ben "What makes you so important?" He's curious as to *why* Widmore would pay so much to capture someone.. ALIVE.

Thus proving himself smarter that 99 & 44/100 % of Losties.


>Ben has questions of his own, for instance Did Widmora instruct Keamy to kill Alex?

Thus confirming the above.


> A third takes a tazer dart to the neck. Ben, Kate, and Lapidus crouch during the ensuing crossfire.

And I keep wondering – do they then slit his throat or is he the newest Others recruit?


> Keamy has been shot squarely in the back by 2nd in command Richard Alpert.

Sadly, Richard H Alpert’s small arms training stopped short of the “two to the body, then one to the head” lesson.


>Ben asks Kate to cut him free,

Did you notice a certain hesitation on Kate’s part, wondering whether to cut his bindings or sink the blade to the hilt in his ribs?


>Later on the deck, Sun spots Michael hauling gas.

Was that pun intentional?


> Halliwax introduces a large oval shaped chamber called "the vault". which was constructed adjacent to a pocket of Negatively Charged Exotic Matter.

Or, as we say in engineering, “unobtainium”.


>Locke desperately fights to keep Keamy alive.

My solution: Strap the monitor to your own arm, john.


>consequences? Yes, we learn that the price is quite steep for Ben, because whoever moves the Island can never go back.

And we/Locke should believe this because?


> I didn't know what to make out of "Frozen Donkey Wheel" But this year, the name describes the scene in vivid detail. You see, set into the Icy Stone wall was an enormous horizontal wheel - the type that actual donkeys would be attached to and made to pull.

I didn’t remember that little bon mot from the writers, and the first thing I thought was “It’s the capstan (anchor puller-upper) from the Black Rock.”


> With a final flash of brilliance, the light returns to normal, and there is a brief ripple in the sea where the Island had been only moments ago.


Disappearing along with my suspension of disbelief. Oh, I’ll still watch, but convincing me that this is all rationally explainable gets harder and harder.


> We don't see the raftaways again until after dark. Jack sees Aaron snoozing peacefully in Kate's lap and asks how he's doing.


And we all still wonder “What has this nursing baby been eating the last few days?”


> Hurley appeals to Jacks sense of logic - "Oh really? Because one minute it was there and the next minute it was gone. So unless we overlooked it completely, Locke moved it. Unless you have some other explanation"

Hurley the pragmatist philosopher.


> He makes a persuasive argument that anything they say which contradicts the discovery of the staged wreck of 815 will put all of them and anyone still on the Island at great risk.

I’m not persuaded – straight to the NYT, I say.

Best line of the review:
> The boat nears.. Sayid tenses, fully prepared this time should their would-be rescuers pull alongside the inflatable and declare "We're gonna have to take the boy"


> As the boat nears, we hear some foreign voices

And what a mixture of foreign voices! Could anybody count how many different languages were coming from the good ship Babel?


>Assuming that this takes place around three years after leaving the Island, then Walt would be thirteen. Hurley addresses Walt's growth by remarking "You're getting big dude"

A brilliant way of coping with Malcolm David Kelley’s growth, since it’s about three years real time since we last got a good look at him in S-1.


>Ben explains to Jack that he can't go back alone. The only way for him to return to the Island is for everyone to go..

Thus contradicting what he said above. Who’s surprised?
O==================================

#57. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 8:42 PM

RE: the whole Widmore and Charlotte trying to "get back" to the island. That was some very significant information the writers gave us there. My theory: Charlotte was born on the island (well, duh!) and she's also Widmore's daughter. Or maybe she was Ben's daughter and Widmore took her as collateral, the same way Ben ended up taking Alex. It would make sense with the whole "Everything you have you took from ME." Or something like that.
I thought Faraday and the rest of the redshirts were back on the freighter when it blew up. But, my continuity may be lacking, I'll have to rewatch a couple million times.
Is it January 2009 yet?

P.S. Muchos Kudos to Vacc for filling in for Mac! Those are some big shoes to fill!

#58. Posted by: Trinity at May 30, 2008 8:44 PM

ATTN MAC:

At least to me, the format errors are gone.

#59. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 8:46 PM

Awesome review Vacc, you did great.

I also thought it was hilarious when Sawyer called Lapidus "Kenny Rogers", mostly because of Lap's reaction. Classic!

Michael is definitely dead now. Dr. Daddy clearly appeared to him to let him know the island was done with him, and he 'could go now'...meaning 'you can die now like you wanted to'. He was at ground zero of the explosion. No way he survived that.

Now on the other hand...Jin really could still be alive. I mean, what would you do if you knew the ship you were on was about to blow up and there was no chance of you getting on the chopper? Personally, I'd get a huge running start and jump ship. Then swim like a dolphin in heat. Maybe next season we'll see a flashback of that very scene play out. The only problem is...he didn't have anywhere to swim to. Once the island got moved he would basically have been Dharma shark food. Unless Faraday's little boat came along with the island 'red shirts' and rescued him. Of course, at that point they'd still have nowhere to go.

So IMHO, Michael=dead. Jin=?, but could be dead, and is dead as far as Sun & the rest of the O6 are concerned.. And I agree about Sun's reaction on the chopper. Totally believable and realistic. And heart renching. Awesome acting.

So I guess that means the island had no more work for Locke to do. But it still needs his corpse to come back? That would mean Desmond would also have to go back. Not sure if Walt should be included in that equation or not, but I would think so.

I really really wish they would've shown Mr. Eko playing chess with Hurley...just for a sec.

So as far as main cast members go... Sawyer, Juliet, Bernard, Rose, Claire, and Locke remain on the moved island, along with Miles & Charlotte, plus Alpert and his Other-cohorts. And maybe a few unnamed and faceless Flight 815 survivors. It will be very interesting to see what specifically happened to them all when the island was moved. Obviously nothing too bad or the process wouldn't exist.

So the donkey-wheel...I totally got the impression from it that the island was some sort of huge ship...or even space ship...and that was the steering wheel. Hope we get a very detailed description of what it was and how the island moving process actually works.

Can't believe the next episode is so far away...!

#60. Posted by: JoePike at May 30, 2008 8:49 PM

@Vikki 52

the extended news conference included details of the 3 that didn't make it in the story the 06 told.
There is a short clip of it at darkufo. I was cooking for a guest, and listening to the repeat of pt.1, and like, wait, wtf, that's not what I saw last week!

#61. Posted by: mtncbn at May 30, 2008 8:50 PM

Erratum:

Make that "3 Days of the Condor".

And of course:

GREAT JOB VACC!

#62. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 30, 2008 8:52 PM

Wow … did I say wow? This episode left me with few preconceived ideas intact …

You know what struck me as odd though, in light of everything else that happened? The comment about getting a few hours of sunburn before being rescued … uh … they’ve “supposedly” been stranded on an island near the equator for three months, yet they haven’t gotten any sun until stuck in a raft for a few hours? Never mind …

I’ve read the first 50 comments or so, but want to comment on vacc’s review before diving into any replies to those (and some may be covered) …

Let’s start with the license plate … don’t know if it means anything, but why not throw it out there? 4QKD695 … any leet-speak people out there? Does this translate to anything easily recognizable in text-messaging format? Maybe acronym AQKDBGS? Anyone? So many possibilities, if there is any meaning at all (?) … the first thing that popped into my mind was “After Questioning Kate Declared Being Good Surrogate,” but that’s pretty weak, I know …

“The Island was never really big enough for Jack and Locke.” Hmm, this will come up again … I’ll hold off for now (because I think it’s my only really good thought, and I want to present more evidence before I say anything) …

“A few relieved hugs later” … and “relieved” is the operative word (after catching him watering the plants) … they didn’t really get “too” close to Hurley “for hugs” after that, did they? Couldn’t help but think of the grade school jingle, “no matter how much you jiggle and dance, there’s always a drop …” I know, childish, but as the scorpion told the frog, “it’s my nature.”

“As Jack turns to leave with Sawyer and Hurley, he gets some parting words of advice from Obi-Locke …” … Hmm, Obi-Locke? Hmm …

“Lapidus is still cuffed to the chopper, and makes quite a bit of noise trying to free himself” … for someone who asked for the tools, he seemed pretty damned clueless about how to free himself, especially under the circumstances!

“they hear the jungle whispers” … a remaining mystery … what the ?

“Sayid used his breakdancing feet maneuver to disarm Keamy” … seriously, couldn’t help but laugh, as all I could think of was the commercial for “Zohan” where the dude is like, “was that your foot?”

“Keamy eventually gets the drop on his Iraqi foe and begins to choke the life out of Sayid by jamming a board under his neck …” … but suddenly, where were the Zohan feet?

“Sayid breathes a sigh of relief. Keamy has been shot squarely in the back by 2nd in command Richard Alpert.” … Sayid would know better!

“His plan is to freeze the battery so that the explosives won't detonate immediately once the light goes red” … this whole thing annoyed me! Was there another battery involved (i.e., a 9V in the radio receiver?), or was the car battery supposed to power the whole thing? In either case, a physical “trip” mechanism connected to the battery (e.g., a solenoid that closes a switch upon losing power, and triggering a firing pin, or something along those lines), would’ve gone off when the battery was frozen. In the first case, an electrical trigger (maybe a capacitor that would release the firing charge upon cutting the battery line) would have caused the bomb to explode, just as surely as snipping any one of the wires. If there wasn’t a secondary power source (i.e, from another battery), then “cutting” the car battery power by slowly freezing it would most likely make the bomb inert. In any case, the scenario did not make any sense.

“[Widmore] asks Sun the very question we all want answered – ‘Why do you want to help me[?]’ … because she hates Ben, the “other one” responsible for Jin’s (supposed) death!

“… by taunting Ben with the image of Alex bleeding out …” … anyone else think more “Cobain” than bleeding out?

"Sometimes good command decisions get compromised by bad emotional responses." Hmm again … I swear, getting there!

"Where's my coat?" asks Locke … Here we go! Did anyone else think that sounded a bit like a whiny tag-along little brother yelling “but I wanna go too!!!!” Hence all my previous “hmm” comments … Locke is simply NOT a leader! He does fine on his own as independent-minded jungle master, but is honestly TERRIFIED of being placed into a leadership position! Obi-Locke? I don’t think so! Jack versus Locke on leadership issues? AGAIN, I don’t think so ... perhaps leading to the comment between Jack and Ben near the end in the funeral parlor. Locke blames all the terrible things that happened after the O6 left (yet to be seen), on Jack for leaving … why? Because Locke is NOT a leader! Notice how freaked he was when Ben told him the Others would follow his every word! “What should I tell them to do?” Hmm … the man has not a leadership bone in his body … he is NOT Obi-Locke, nor Han-Locke, nor Luke-Locke … he’s C3PO-Locke! I suggest this will lead to the “terrible” things that transpire on the island in the next two seasons … he is a false leader (e.g., having Sawyer kill Cooper … Jacob knows, but the Others do NOT). He may play one on the pre-island board games, but he is NOT a true leader, and when forced to perform as one, he will fold!

Getting into pre-season 5/6 speculation here, but think he WILL commit suicide off-island, upon realizing he was NOT the true “chosen one” after all (hmm … maybe Guyliner was right!), and “turned the frozen donkey wheel” himself to turn the reins over to someone who IS (who?) … distraught over not being able to return (and possibly being crippled again), he decides to off himself. Just my preemptive theory.

#63. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 8:55 PM

→ 43. Posted by: iheartsayid

I agree with previous posts- very nicely said. I think it also reflects Locke's character arc- he goes from a blank slate who is strong-willed and believes he has the right to do as he pleases (the Locke philosophy) to a group leader, who apparently leaves his home for the good of everyone else (the Bentham philosophy of all actions must benefit the happiness of the majority). Combined with the mummified corpse and the panopticon reference, and it's a pretty savvy name change by the writers.
*************

→ 57. Posted by: RazzleDazzle:

"On a similar note, did the original obit for Jeremy Bentham say that he had a teenage son."

The producers have said in interviews that the obituary will be rewritten. I don't think they were prepared for the fans who took the high-res screencaps and actually transcribed the original newspaper article clutched in Jack's hand in season 3.

#64. Posted by: Mizzed at May 30, 2008 9:00 PM

Great great great review, vacc.

I took copious notes but don't have them with me now...here are a few things I remember:

*Widmore makes a comment about Mr Paik being a good golfer. That means Widmore plays, too. Hmmmmm...who WAS that on the golf course with Sayid??

*Why would Ben send John to find the secret door when John wouldn't have a clue what to do once he got inside?

*I felt more than a little cheated - changing Locke's name and putting him in the coffin. Feels like bait and switch. But TPTB did succeed in creating a WTF final scene.

Dense, yes. Nose is bleeding. Must get my notes!

#65. Posted by: lovelost at May 30, 2008 9:11 PM

Thanks vacc for stepping up and filling in for Fearless Leader. You did a great job!

I don't know why people are wondering who Sun considers to be the other person responsible for Jin's death... She knows it's Widmore and she's goin' fishing for him. Last night we watched her cast her net.

Sun will bring down both her father and Widmore.

Interesting about Charlotte, going back to where she was born.

Miles totally knew the freighter = death and he didn't say anything to anyone, well ok...he did suggest to Charlotte that she wanted to stay.

#66. Posted by: undaunted at May 30, 2008 9:12 PM

Wow! Three glasses of wine and the review is finally readable...thanks vacc! I only skimmed the skinny one.\

Okay...back to reading the posts. Wow, this was one action packed episode.

#67. Posted by: meg...MIF at May 30, 2008 9:13 PM

@Mizzed/64
"I think it also reflects Locke's character arc- he goes from a blank slate who is strong-willed and believes he has the right to do as he pleases (the Locke philosophy) to a group leader"

I just directly contradicted your premise in my #63 post, and still think I am correct. Having "faith" in self-determination is actually a long stretch from showing leadership qualities ... I think the epitaph from the "real" John Locke says it all:

"Near this place lies John Locke. If you ask what kind of a man he was, he answers that he lived content with his own small fortune. Bred a scholar, he made his learning subservient only to the cause of truth. This you will learn from his writings, which will show you everything else concerning him, with greater truth, than the suspect praises of an epitaph. His virtues, indeed, if he had any, were too little for him to propose as matter of praise to himself, or as an example to you."

He never claimed himself as a leader .. nor does "our" John Locke ... he is/was a man of ideas/ideals, not a leader, and ill-suited to the task when forced upon him ... philosophically suited or otherwise ... he pointed the way, but was not meant to lead ...

#68. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 9:27 PM

I know that Widmore or Jack seems like the likeliest "other" person that Sun blames for Jin's death. Isn't it possible though, that it is actually Kate that Sun blames? Remember that Sun was running to get Jin and Kate stopped her saying that she would go after Jin. She didn't follow through with her promise when she was stopped by (Jack?) and told there was no time and that she needed to get back to the copter. It would make sense that she would hold Kate responsible for not keeping her word.

#69. Posted by: ss lostie at May 30, 2008 9:35 PM

@ ealgumby - 63
All Quotations Kan't Determine Ben's Going Soft

Hint from the producers about Ben's character.

I know... weaker.

#70. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 9:36 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/72
"All Quotations Kan't Determine Ben's Going Soft"

My Beavis-Butthead "spidey" sense is tingling, but that's just too easy!

#71. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 9:44 PM

→ 70. Posted by: ealgumby

"Having "faith" in self-determination is actually a long stretch from showing leadership qualities."

I always enjoy engaging with you and following your line of thought. I agree 100% with your description of Locke as we have seen him...except...the Locke at the end of the finale is a different man, 3-4 years older and wiser. His name change is more than an alias- it represents his evolution as a person. For someone who has always been disconnected throughout life, the telling line from Richard at the end- "welcome home"- suggests he has found something real.

TPTB could have used any name for Locke's alias- why choose the name of a philosopher who started with Locke's thought, but then discarded it and evolved to his own, radically different way of thinking? To have a character be unchanged and unevolved over the type of mythic cycle the Lost team is creating makes no sense.

I posted this at the end of the last blog, but I think that D&C are using Joseph Campbell's monomyth cycle of hero development, just as George Lucas and so many others have acknowledged doing in the past.

Locke's story arc takes him from being an individualist unable to lead a group to a leader sacrificing himself as an individual, while Jack will develop from a group leader unable to connect as an individual to (presumably) a healthier person no longer compelled to always fix or lead the group.

Locke and Jack are always mirror opposites of each other in thought and belief, so why not believe their character development will as well?

#72. Posted by: Mizzed at May 30, 2008 9:57 PM

@Mizzed/41
"Christian (or something using his image) is not speaking for Jacob and is part of the opposing force. It is Christian ... who told Locke to move the island (making it impossible for the 6 to return).

...

It is Christian's appearances to Jack post-rescue that start his descent into drug addiction and helplessness."

But this is self-contradictory ... why would Christian lead them off an island they cannot return to, yet goad Jack into wanting to return (via forcing his descent...)?

This I DO find on-point though ...

"In fact, I now suspect we've been brilliantly hoodwinked by some great writing- most of our information on the Others, Widmore, Dharma, the Island, etc- comes from Ben, a classic unreliable narrator."

Ben ... the great deceiver ...

#73. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 9:58 PM

I think the other person that Sun blames is Ben...hence, her willingness to align with Widmore. How would she find out about Ben killing Keamy? I bet O.I.L. (Off-Island-Locke) paid her a little visit too and gave her a summary of Ben and Keamy's confrontation. Remember Ben's reaction to Locke pointing out that he just basically killed all the people on the freighter..."So?"

This just dawned on me too...Ben told Jack that EVERYONE has to go back to make things "right"...wouldn't this then include Desmond? If so, how will he ever leave Panny again, especially after telling her that he won't? I agree, Sun's reaction to Jin's "death" (I'm not 100% convinced either...) wat heart and gut wrenching to watch, but I don't know if I can handle Des and Penny having to say goodbye again...

#74. Posted by: Vikki at May 30, 2008 10:03 PM

@Mizzed/74
"Locke's story arc takes him from being an individualist unable to lead a group to a leader sacrificing himself as an individual, while Jack will develop from a group leader unable to connect as an individual to (presumably) a healthier person no longer compelled to always fix or lead the group."

AH ... excellent thought! I relent (perhaps?) ... and think the Joseph Campbell ref is also well-suited ... in terms of Lucas lore, I suppose Han/Luke?Anakin all went through the same type of transformation ...

It would be JUST consistent enough for the Lost writers to turn the monomyth story on its head and have Locke fail though ... I think both sides have merit.

#75. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 10:06 PM

Wow...so many typos in that last post...sorry!

And thanks, mtncbn, for the tip on the news conference extra footage. I will check it out now...

#76. Posted by: Vikki at May 30, 2008 10:06 PM

great review of a great finale vacc. whatever you did fixed the margins. many thanks.

one thing did kind of bother me with the walt-hurley scene however. when michael and walt returned they had to live under assumed names. walt is old enough and bright enough to notice that he is no longer called walt, so why would he think any of the 06 would be able to look him up??

i also had a thought about why charlie, boone and libby are the 3 who made it off the plane. hurley is the weakest link in the lie because of his past mental problems. these three people were important to him during his time on the island so there is a possibility that he is liable to slip up and mention his love for libby or his friend charlie. by saying they survived the initial crash they can explain how he was able to meet and interact with them.

and an fyi for any of you who can get canadian channels - space (our sifi channel) is going to be running the entire series of LOST starting in september.

ok, back to reading. there has probably been 50 more posts in the time it took me to write this!

#77. Posted by: surefoot at May 30, 2008 10:10 PM

ealgumby: But this is self-contradictory ... why would Christian lead them off an island they cannot return to, yet goad Jack into wanting to return (via forcing his descent...)?
*********

His father's hauntings and Jack's resultant descent cut off Jack's influence from the rest of the group, especially Kate (and just as importantly, from Aaron), and drives him to suicide- until fate/destiny/universe/some force intervenes once more with yet another car crash.

(BTW, if someone can please explain the never-ending car crash theme, please do).

Last night's episode indicates that it was the return of Locke/Bentham, not Christian, that compelled Jack to change his mind about returning to the island, starting with his futile attempt to reestablish communication with Kate that we have now seen two finales in a row.

#78. Posted by: Mizzed at May 30, 2008 10:12 PM

Amazing finale...I do have to say though that after all the philosophy and mythology this show throws out, I was surprised that my last thought following that final coffin scene was "Weekend at Bernie's?!"

#79. Posted by: amada at May 30, 2008 10:13 PM

@Vikki/76
"This just dawned on me too...Ben told Jack that EVERYONE has to go back to make things 'right'...wouldn't this then include Desmond?"

I'm SO glad you reminded me of this thought ... also, what about Lapidus? Would Penny agree to go with Desmond? ... possible future source of conflict in Eden ... What about Walt? Does he need to go too? Do "they" need to keep his father's death a secret in order to get him to go?

#80. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 10:16 PM

@ ealgumby - 82
What about Bob?

... another lame joke.
=D (Evil smiley)

#81. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 30, 2008 10:28 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/21:
"So if the O6 have to take Locke w/them to get back to the island, does that mean that a corpse in a coffin is a/the trigger to finding the island?"

Apparently, having a dead body on-board is NOT a requirement to finding the island (the freighter crew found it), but maybe it "helps" somehow? Did taking Naomi's body back to the freighter establish some kind of "link" that allowed them to come and go? Is this where Miles fits in?

"If it's a requirement to off one's father to become the island leader, was Locke voted off the island because he wasn't actually the one who killed Cooper, & Jacob found out that Locke was deceitful?"

I think Jacob always knew (else how the hell did Cooper get there without his knowledge?) ... the question is whether or not the Others (RA et al) knew ... I think they did not.

"Looks like the DUI curse struck again. RIP, Jin."

Ooo ... I hope you're wrong, but that DOES make sense.

#82. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 10:28 PM

What was Ben's plan when he surrendered to the soldiers outside the Orchid Station? It seemed to be to allow Locke to gain entrance to the station. But Locke would not have been able to move the island. So that Ben managed to move the island in the end was just luck. Or did Ben have a different plan from the start?


Speaking of ridiculous-seeming plans, why did Keamy think the threat to blow up the freighter would save himself? Any adversary he would meet up with very likely would not know about the device. Further, even if an adversary did know about the device, since Keamy is usually in "Kill" mode, the adversary is going to choose to kill Keamy in self defense. And then there's Ben who just wants revenge for his daughter regardless. So, Keamy, what was the point of the device? Seems too far-fetched.

#83. Posted by: Chad Brown at May 30, 2008 10:29 PM

I still don't understand why the O6 need to lie about their experiences. Admitting the truth is the only way to protect them from Widmore (or the real villain) - and the best way to rescue their friends still on the "Island." Lying only increases the risk that Widmore (or whoever) will kill them before one of them decides to admit the truth. Why protect the real perpetrator? It doesn't make sense - other than to keep a great show interesting.

Also why mention Boone, Libby, & Charlie as dying on the "Island" and omit Shannon - and the tailies? Very strange!

#84. Posted by: PAG at May 30, 2008 10:29 PM

@ILBxx/81
"What about Bob?"

Not the ref I would've expected ... wha?

#85. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 10:34 PM

Ben has to leave the island because he moved it? And that is a Jacob "rule"? Does not make sense. Jacob supposedly told Ben via Locke and Christian Shephard to move the island. So why punish him for doing so? Unless Christain was not really authorized to speak for Jacob.

#86. Posted by: Chad Brown at May 30, 2008 10:35 PM

add yourself to the lost frapp map here!

http://www.frappr.com/thefuselage

#87. Posted by: jeremy Bentham at May 30, 2008 10:37 PM

@Chad Brown/83
"What was Ben's plan when he surrendered to the soldiers outside the Orchid Station? ...

Speaking of ridiculous-seeming plans, why did Keamy think the threat to blow up the freighter would save himself? ..."

Both excellent points! Let alone, why Keamy would GAS to ask Ben anything on the way to collecting his bounty ... but there we go thinking again (at least, along the lines we're supposed to)!

@PAG/84
"Also why mention Boone, Libby, & Charlie as dying on the 'Island'"

Totally baffled by this, especially as Jack seems to be the "brains" behind the lie ... why introduce them? The "Charlie and Boone spoke over radio" excuse seems to leave Libby out, and also begs the question of HOW Charlie/Boone got radio transmitters (if someone else heard the conversations), let alone how to explain what they were saying, so I don't buy that excuse ... other than perhaps the writers trying to satisfy bloggers' suggestions that they should be among the supposed "dead" for that reason (and hence hopefully shutting them up with an "Aha, I told you so!" and nothing more).

Don't know if you saw this Slate article on Lost, but the premise is interesting:

www.slate.com/id/2192268/

Basically, that although the "grand lines" of the story have been laid out to the end of the show, there's still plenty of "wiggle room" for the writers to adjust the story as they go. This makes perfect sense to me! Still haven't figured out the Libby thing though, in any sense ... ideas?

#88. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 10:54 PM

Wow... I can't believe there are 7 more months to pick up where we all just left off last night..

Vacc.. nice job putting things together in place of our beloved Mac. I could'nt have began to do anthing like that, with one exception..."Lock and Jack's greeting is about as warm as a midfield handshake after a Jets Patriots game." should have read "after a COLTS-Patriots game...

#89. Posted by: Three Men and A Baby.. (I counted Hugo twice) at May 30, 2008 11:04 PM

for those of you who said that michael was "protected" by the island, and that he couldn't die because of this, that he's still alive, remember what christian said to michael a split second before the explosion - "u can go now".

I doubt he meant anything but "u no longer have to live with your guilt anymore, see u on the other side".

as for jin, unless he's a real quick swim... he's pretty much dead. producers said that a main character would die, so there u have it.

wishful thinking here... but i suppose that getting dead-locke on the island would probably have a similar effect as with jack's daddy - meaning he'd be revived (sort of, considering christian's new "life"). or maybe they plan to shift time backwards and change events or something.. cmon guys dont kill locke he won an emmy for cryin out loud!

nice how the producers meddled with our heads about the "someone's gonna die" rumour and desmond... anyone else watchin closely the helicopter scene,completely ignoring sun's cries, waiting for a screen with desmond, hoping he didn't stay on the boat?

by the way, what's with the weird stones and symbols down in the icy cave? kinda looked similar to those ehind ben's secret chamber.

i guess my question about this show is ... are we dealing with fantasy here or science fiction? because if the island was really moved in space/time, it seems really weird that turning an ancient wheel was behind it. let's pray to God that the answer to this show doesn't prove out to be aliens.. and we see richard dean anderson on the island, along with Teal'c and his bunch.


#90. Posted by: dk at May 30, 2008 11:07 PM

Great great great review, vacc.

I took copious notes but don't have them with me now...here are a few things I remember:

*Widmore makes a comment about Mr Paik being a good golfer. That means Widmore plays, too. Hmmmmm...who WAS that on the golf course with Sayid??

*Why would Ben send John to find the secret door when John wouldn't have a clue what to do once he got inside?

*I felt more than a little cheated - changing Locke's name and putting him in the coffin. Feels like bait and switch. But TPTB did succeed in creating a WTF final scene.

Dense, yes. Nose is bleeding. Must get my notes!

#91. Posted by: lovelost at May 30, 2008 11:23 PM

I just found the "whispers" transcript from last night. The second set of whispers, track five (right rear), when played backward says -

"vacc... vacc.... If you write it... they will come... and they'll read the review... and it will be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick... they'll have to brush them away from their faces."

#92. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 30, 2008 11:26 PM

dk asks: "by the way, what's with the weird stones and symbols down in the icy cave? kinda looked similar to those ehind ben's secret chamber."

I thought the same thing. The Dharma Initiative buildings appear to be a veneer over something much older and more mystical. Using an old, manual wheel to move the island in spacetime seems to support that same idea.

BTW, did anybody notice that Richard's clothes appeared identical to the outfit he wore when he first met Ben as a boy? It's as if the natural state of the Others is more primitive and tied to the land, and the comfortable "book club and casserole" life they led under Ben (aka The Great Deceiver) in the old Dharma compound was false and unnatural.

Perhaps there is something that prevents the Others from replacing a leader, no matter how disliked, until a new leader emerges.

Will we see Locke extend an offer to the few remaining beach dwellers to come join the Others? Is this what the Others are- an accumulation of mixed time survivors who have fallen into the island, survived, but cannot get home?

And if Locke/Bentham leaves them in a few years as indicated, who becomes their leader? Jack and Walt are not on the island, and neither is Aaron. Could it be...Sawyer?

One last thought on the island and Charlotte possibly once being an Other. TPTB have named her as an homage to C.S. Lewis. For those who have not seen or read Prince Caspian, here is how the story ends (from wiki):

Aslan tells the Telmarines of their true origin, from the world of men, where their ancestors were pirates in the South Seas who fell through a gap between worlds. About half of them accept the offer (to return to the world of humans, ed.)...

Aslan has set up two stakes of wood with a third piece uniting them on top. Peter, Aslan, and Caspian stand in front of the "door." Peter and Susan are told by Aslan that they will never return to Narnia. Peter tells the others he can cope with this as "it's all a bit different from what I thought." ...one of the Telmarine soldiers advances and goes through the door and disappears. Then, to allay fears, Peter and the rest of the children go through the doorway, knowing that Peter and Susan will not be allowed to return to Narnia again.

#93. Posted by: Mizzed at May 30, 2008 11:40 PM

woah. this is surprising. were only in the double digits.

who here thinks that Juliet and Sawyer will hook up???

#94. Posted by: kaseygirl106 at May 30, 2008 11:43 PM

Great show and great clutch shooting by vacc. Go Celtics.

Too bad Jin (aka Mr. Sun) had to go "boom" but moving forward he would have been an anchor to Sun as she morphs into the calculating Dragon Lady she's obviously destined to be in S5.

The Sun is rising.

#95. Posted by: Norcal Mark at May 30, 2008 11:45 PM

→ 94. Posted by: kaseygirl106
who here thinks that Juliet and Sawyer will hook up???

Nah. Juliet's way to uptight for Sawyer. Just wait until he starts laying a few naughty nicknames on Charlotte.

#96. Posted by: Norcal Mark at May 30, 2008 11:48 PM

@vacc: Mad props, dude! I have no idea how you covered all that material, but congratulations and good job. I especially liked “raftaways” and “Wonkavator.” And, spot on with the Benry looks like Data observation!

“Now does anyone else here think that the Others responded to one of those "Learn to Throw Your Voice" ads at the back of Walt's comic book?”

We don’t know for sure what the whispers truly are, but we’ve speculated about ghosts or time-travelers. So, what does it say about the Others, that they can call them or control them at will?

“Sayid used his breakdancing feet maneuver to disarm Keamy”

I have a mad passion for Sayid “Scissor Legs” Jarrah. (All credit on the ‘scissor legs’ reference to mac.)

“Sun shares the news with Michael that she's preggers. Michael flashes Sun a quick "it's not mine" look”

And I read that look as a “maybe it is mine, but we can’t deal with that now” acknowledgement. I never bought into the speculation about Michael and Sun, until that look. Now I think they left the door open.

@Jimmy Puma/32: Great explanation! I also suspected Sun knew about Ben triggering the explosion, but was confused as to how she would learn of it. Locke visiting her would make sense. I think the issue of the second person Sun will hold responsible for Jin’s death is another area left ambiguous for future story purpose. In my opinion, it could easily be either Ben or Widmore. And she will align the resources of Paik Industries with his sworn enemy. But which one is which? And I agree with FenwayBen on the previous post, about her skills as a double-secret agent.

@JaneSweetz/33: “I’m keeping a candle lit for Micheal and Jin. I'll take it to the bank.”

Dear Jane: Please don’t take your lit candle to the bank. The tellers won’t be happy ;)

@Mizzed/41: “Christian (or something using his image) is not speaking for Jacob and is part of the opposing force.”

Good theory, and I agree, mostly because Christian’s presence feels evil or dangerous to me. Definitely not a force for good. But if something evil is impeding Jacob, are we then to believe that Jacob is one of the good guys?

@liz/45: “another great line when Ben returns to the Orchid to Locke "You couldn't find the anthuriums?" Locke "I don't know what they look like!"

That was my absolute favorite line, and the way Terry O’Quinn delivered it was just about perfect. And my other favorite was Ben’s response to Locke’s query about the Orchid film, “Was that about what I think it was about?” “Well, if you think it was about time-traveling bunnies, then yes.” (paraphrasing, not the exact line, I’m sure)

@Chad Brown/83: “What was Ben's plan when he surrendered to the soldiers outside the Orchid Station?”

To lead Keamy and pals off to an Other ambush in the jungle.

****************************************

Who else saw Sawyer and Juliet on the beach and thought ‘Blue Lagoon’? I know we’re missing the incest angle (well, I’m not really missing it), but Dang! They make one fine looking couple!

My one and only gripe: Why did the Oceanic Six have to lie about the island? Can someone please talk me through the reasoning there? I can’t believe they all bought into Jack’s decision so easily.

My favorite, most awesome, most gratifying scene: the Frozen Donkey Wheel reveal. Mostly because Darlton said it was just an inside joke and not to take it literally. And then, there it was, in all its literal, frozen glory! And they set it up perfectly! I must admit: I squealed with delight. Also, was anyone else reminded of Ben’s response to Locke’s question last season about where the Otherton electricity comes from? – two giant hamsters on a wheel underground! Donkeys and hamsters, oh my! ;)

Anyone else think that time was reversing when the Orchid video started to rewind? Or did it fast-forward?

I don’t believe Ben really thinks Jacob wants Locke as the island leader. I think Ben was somehow setting Locke up to take the fall as leader, before he comes back to save the day. He just had a little business to take care of away from the island, and in the meantime, he sent Locke off to play with Richard (just as he set him in front of the TV like a child).

As has been discussed many times, a major theme of our island adventure is redemption (as illustrated again with Christian telling Michael “You can go now”). Locke will find redemption only when he can set aside his pride/ego in believing he is the island “chosen one.” I suspect his mission to return the survivors to the island will result in his death, because in that mission, he will somehow find redemption.

I had a growing sense of horror that Des could be in the coffin, after he assured Jack he would be okay because he had Penny. I immediately thought Des must’ve lost his constant and his mind, and he must be the Jeremy Bentham that’s telling Jack to go back. Thank the Lost gods it wasn’t so!

I also thought maybe Zeke and his hillbilly beard would arrive on the boat that came out of the darkness to rescue the raftaways. What can I say? I like to scamper after every false impression the writers create, because the payoff is great even when I’m wrong. And the Des and Penny reunion was some kinda great payoff! (And great counterpoint to Sun’s breathtaking agony at the loss of Jin.)

Vacc, it would have been so classic if the boat was literally “PENNY’S BOAT”!

Poor Daniel. Stuck in the ocean on a raft of redshirts, and all he has for a memento is the “Let’s just be friends kiss, although we’ll never see each other again” from Char. She does seem to have a Benry cold-hearted snake vibe going for her, so maybe she is his daughter by Annie.

And, what the heck?! Ben wants Jack to lug Locke’s embalmed corpsitude back to the island??!! I can’t wait to see the writers navigate those scenes. If we had the Three Stooges this year, maybe it’s Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein for next season.

I have absolutely no good theory as to why Boone, Libby and Charlie were the three fake survivors. But I can’t wait to find out.

Finally, Ben “always has a plan.” And it usually serves his own interests. Therefore, I think Ben has devised a plan for the survivors to return to the island only because it is somehow necessary to facilitate his own return.

#97. Posted by: Clementine at May 30, 2008 11:59 PM

So am I the only one who caught the Mad Max reference: hacksaw-handcuffs?

#98. Posted by: Robbo at May 31, 2008 12:15 AM

Hey, congratulations to Harold Perrineau and his wife on their new baby girl, born May 7th! This is their second child, their first being...

WAAALLLLTTTTTT!!!!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

tinyurl.com/66zrfs

#99. Posted by: Clementine at May 31, 2008 12:25 AM

96. Posted by: Norcal Mark at May 30, 2008 11:48 PM
Nah. Juliet's way to uptight for Sawyer. Just wait until he starts laying a few naughty nicknames on Charlotte.
+++++
really?
Sawyer: "So... you sleeping with Jack yet?"
Juliet: "No... are you?"

then there was that bit about James busting rocks as a prisoner.. Dr. Burke retorts... that was to build the landing strip for the aliens. ohhhh myyy. they have it in spades...

she likes her bad boys... and he likes his bad girls... plus she knows he can deliver the goods... after watching him and kate making nice in the polar bear cage.

now they are having their tequila sunrise (rum sunset) moment on the beach - meg is seething with jealousy.

#100. Posted by: MorBid0 at May 31, 2008 12:30 AM

Kudos to Hurley and his swimming ability. Jack is still under water and everyone else is still struggling to get to the raft and Hurley is already in helping everyone else get in. First, it seemed the chopper didn't crash to close to the raft so he would have to swim a good distance (and possibly paddle the raft closer to everyone else). Second, I would think given his size and weight HE would need help getting in the raft

#101. Posted by: opserc at May 31, 2008 12:32 AM

Surprised nobody has mentioned this... Exactly what frequency was Keamy's heart monitor broadcasting on? It went through miles of rock and ocean, and never lost contact with the ship until Ben killed him? That's a hell of a transmitter...

Funny that I could accept the island disappearing, but I can't get over the radio. But the show never claimed the radio was anything out of the ordinary, I suppose.

#102. Posted by: KMFPL at May 31, 2008 12:37 AM

→ 101. Posted by: opserc
Second, I would think given his size and weight HE would need help getting in the raft.

Exactly. Even with help they couldn't film it. Look kind of odd having 5 of them helping one dude get in the raft. Solultion. Start the scene with Hurley already in the raft.

#103. Posted by: Norcal Mark at May 31, 2008 12:41 AM

I'm trying to remeber if he even looked wet like he was in the water.

#104. Posted by: opserc at May 31, 2008 12:45 AM

Don't get me wrong. I luv Hurley.

But him getting into a raft with a 3 foot wall on it.

Talk about impossible physics.

#105. Posted by: Norcal Mark at May 31, 2008 12:51 AM

@KMFPL 102
You just have to say Hollywood. NO radio would have worked from underground. Maybe the freighter blew on loss of signal when he started down the elevator, and Ben had no real influence on its demise.

#106. Posted by: mtncbn at May 31, 2008 1:01 AM

@79 amada – mine was: why does Locke look like a combo of Telly Sevalas and Yul Brenner in the King and I?

@129 KMPFL – thank you! Agreed 100% about the radio signal.

#107. Posted by: Lucy at May 31, 2008 2:05 AM

Wow - the numbers changed between my reading and posting, but before someone corrects me, I meant Yul Brynner in The King and I.

#108. Posted by: Lucy at May 31, 2008 2:08 AM

A couple of comments;

The freighter blew up wrong. The explosion was in the cargo hold, not where the rooms were and the C4 was stacked.

When helicopters lose power they autorotate DOWN, not forward. There would not have been a forward momentum crash like an airplane. (And Hueys have sealing fuel cells just because of possible bullet stikes)

But, my biggest questions, what about the frozen room? Where is it? Why is there so little interest in it? Ben was very certain to blow a hole in the back wall to access the tunnel. He went through the tunnel and climbed down one "normal" ladder. Then he broke out a ?frozen? plate of ice? What in the world was it frozen on? Ice can't freeze over open air. Then Ben climbs down a frozen ladder into the ice room.

Is this rooom on the island? Or at some point did Ben, without us seeing, pass into some void into the time warp control room? If the room is on the island, how do we get a frozen vault in the tropics?

I would like to get a good screen capture of those glyphs on the wall.

And no, donkeys couldn't turn the wheel. It is physically not possible. It does look like it could have been from the Black Rock.

Is it possible that the Others are survivors of the Rock and discovered the frozen cavern and its powers long ago. Dharma covered it over and was doing cheesy experiments. The Others told Ben about the true and hidden power of the wheel and the cavern.

Why, if they knew about the power, would Dharma have covered the cave with the vault?

#109. Posted by: Carl at May 31, 2008 3:09 AM

Something that's been missed so far - Sun dropped Des in it when she told Widmore "We're not the only ones who made it off the island.."

:o(

#110. Posted by: Herne at May 31, 2008 4:39 AM

@pkittle/53

Re: the historical Jeremy Bentham's "present but not voting" corpse at U London College Councils. Thanks for the reminder - I agree, totally significant.

It appears the O6 will need to transport Bentham/Locke's remains back to the island. And here I'm imagining a slapstick version of Faulkner's As I Lay Dying en route to the island.

I am also imagining this means that Locke, like Christian before him, will become Jacob's/the island's medium. And if so, what should we make of the seeming prerequisite of being a coffin-encased corpse in order to become the island's spokesperson?

#111. Posted by: iheartsayid at May 31, 2008 5:02 AM

Hello everyone, I'm new to here but the recaps, highlights and discussions, everything here are so remarkable.

I am not good at explaining things, but at least let me try. Clearly, the sole purpose of the time vault is to seal the wheel. This means whoever built it also knows the existence of the tunnel and the cave. Since the D.I. built the station, people of the D.I. must know about this, or at least their leader knew it. If science experiments or knowing the island are their only interest, why wouldn't they built the lab around the wheel by digging deeper to the cave instead of sealing it? This makes me believe that the D.I. are not only dull scientists at all, someone knew something other than Ben, Others and Widmora.

But one thing puzzles me, Ben went to the island after the D.I. did. If the D.I. had sealed the wheel by then, how could Ben know about it?

Another thing is about the wheel itself. If it is a device to move the island, whoever built it must not be keen on user friendly conventions. At least I dont see how the one who operates it can input some bearings, like if the island moves, moves to where? Just random jump? And if you notice, Ben needs to turn the wheel at least 90 degrees to make it function. But for all of us, wheels are sensitive in our daily life. It just doesnt make sense...

#112. Posted by: JustBeenHere at May 31, 2008 5:07 AM

@mizzed 93/74

Wow, interesting that the writers explicitly linked Charlotte's name to C.S. Lewis. You're probably right that this is an homage to the rich Narnia mythology and its potential strands of comparison to the island.

But in light of the show's explicit "Man of Faith vs. Man of Science" theme, it may well refer to CS Lewis's own biography. CSL, a convert from atheism to Christianity, became one of the 20th century's most celebrated Christian apologists in his non-fiction works. And what seems noteworthy, in a Lost context, is the fact that (1) he defended Christianity from a skeptic's point of view: Christianity was argued as REASONABLE, and (2) it wasn't a watered-down Christianity that he defended (the sort of "Jesus was a wise man and great teacher" view that held sway in his highbrow Oxford milieu), but rather one that actively asserted that Jesus was the Son of God and that miracles take place in the world.

So CS Lewis seems to hover as some ideal synthesis of the Man of Faith and the Man of Reason. But as yet there seems to be no character counterpart in our Lost panoply. Perhaps it will be Charlotte.

...Which, speaking of syntheses, brings me to your idea that Locke's and Jack's story arcs will eventually evolve in such a way that balance will be achieved for our two extreme characters: Jack will become more individual-oriented (he will not always have to aspire to be group savior), while Locke, in turn, will rise above his rugged individualism to become a group leader.

Hmm. As for ever-annoying Jack: if he takes such a turn in the future, all I can say is - great, but we've not yet seen evidence of it.

As for Locke: I just don't see such an individualistic-to-group-aware arc in his story line. The dichotomy doesn't hold. Locke has always wanted to be a hero/group leader. Think of his hurt and impassioned response to the high school advisor, who tells him he's never be the captain of the football team, etc.

Locke has always been on the outside looking in, wanting to be admired, accepted, loved, by others (most tragically by his sociopath father). His orientation seems the very opposite of I'm-Number-One self-interested. And given his longstanding desire to fit in with and lead a group, there's something rather poignant in the fact that he's actually quite good as leader - but in one-on-one relationships; not as a group leader. He is a gifted and humane mentor, as seen in his relation with Walt, Boone, and, tragically, the undercover cop in the season 3 (?) weed/agrarian commune episode. But because he is not naturally a "group" leader, a role which calls for other traits - including some less-than-admirable ones, I think this mismatch may well trigger his tragic demise.

#113. Posted by: iheartsayid at May 31, 2008 5:55 AM

Well Rose never wanted to leave the island, remember, because she felt that her cancer went away when they crashed there? Her and Bernard probably stayed. Smoke monster and bad freighter people aside, the others turned out to be pretty okay people, staying on the island, maybe not a bad plan. I think I read somewhere that Jin is on the island, wherever it is, with Sawyer and Juliet.

#114. Posted by: ksf at May 31, 2008 6:28 AM

Re. Keamy, his heart monitor, etc.

I'm totally thrilled with this theory that Keamy's lost heart monitor signal might have been geographically determined (untransmittable in the bowels of the Orchid), rather than loss of heartbeat. This leaves open the sliver of possibility that Keamy may still be alive!

Yeah, I know it does not look good: major throat choking and such. But Keamy has been remarkably resilient. Why didn't Smokey kill him in that earlier episode? And how did he manage to move from totally dead-looking body to Kate et al., to "my vest saved me" in the Orchid such a short time later?

Maybe he's got some island mojo. At the very least he seems to have the Herculean staying power of "The Russian" (cue classic Sopranos "Pine Barrens" episode).

So this my shout-out to any lurking Lost producers: Please exploit this slight opening of Keamy's survival! He was an utterly captivating presence in all of his S4 appearances, and his character begs for future development and back-story! And I sensed, despite his "why would Widmore pay me so much" query to Ben, that his motivation was far more loaded and personal than mere mercenary interest.

Okay okay, I admit my speculations are partly because I found Keamy surprisingly, irresistibly hot. But I swear: typically I NEVER go for the Bad Boys or the uber-buff Rambo types! But Kevin Durand brought some amazing presence to Keamy, and I really hope the producers see the wisdom of keeping him around. ...I can imagine some future totally charged scenes between his ruthless, bad-ass self and a more nuanced, but equally bad-ass capable Juliet. It wouldn't matter which one was holding the other captive, sparks would fly.

And as far as Bad Guys go, Keamy would be a useful contrast to Ben: whereas Ben's all about manipulation and mind games, Keamy is straightforward ruthless. He doesn't mess around. The narrative key would thus be in understanding what motivates him.

And if this is all second-order rationalization for the fact that I couldn't take my eyes off him whenever his character was on the screen, I somehow doubt I was alone in my embarrassing infatuation!

#115. Posted by: iheartsayid at May 31, 2008 7:47 AM

It is funny how some unbelievable things are easy to accept (island disappearing), yet others are argued about (Hurley getting in raft)...LOL

For me, it's Sun's character development that I find hard to believe. How can a woman who survived seeing her husband blown up (maybe), the birth of her daughter, and then being a single mom be THAT put together?? I mean, those circumstances are begging for a bout of post-partum depression!

I had something else, more significant, to say but I forgot.

#116. Posted by: meg at May 31, 2008 8:11 AM

@ 115. - iheartsayid

No, no you are not alone in your infatuation with keamy, maybe we will at least find him again in a widmore backstory....

#117. Posted by: lostinVT at May 31, 2008 9:38 AM

I’m not surprised that the blog entries are coming in very slowly on this episode. There was a lot to absorb. Maybe if we had had a full season, some of these episode moments would have been treated another way earlier and this episode wouldn’t have appeared to be such a “compactor” finale. And for the most part, the whole episode was pretty much straight-forward adventure story, with the right mixture of humor and pathos, mystery and disclosure blended together.

Since the days of movie serials, the ‘Perils of Pauline” through Indiana Jones, the public watches with baited breath, taunt grimaces, tightly gripped wringing hands, and excited screams when our hero and heroines are caught up in the most ludicrous of situations and escape by the “skin of their teeth.”

Well, I’ve just watched the finale for the third time and . .

Like Carl’s earlier post, I, too, know that choppers literally fall out of the sky and don’t “glide in for landings;

I know that the ship blew up at the wrong place in its superstructure;

I know that all the explosive actions, tunnel-ratting, and the ice shattering motions that Ben went through to reach some “ancient” frozen time controls was implausible.

And like others, I know Hurley couldn’t possibly have gotten into the raft without a sea-crane.

I know the writers refer to literally scores of early philosophers and religious icons for their branding and obviously also for their story lines at times.

And I realize that there have been many incidences of dead guys not staying dead guys! But on the other hand, some dead guys DO stay dead.

And yes, I know that Kate is hot,
Sawyer is a noble cad,
Aaron is growing like a weed,
Hurley is very sad,
Ben is devious,
Sayid is dangerous,
Jack breaths funny,
Locke is delusionally right AND wrong most of the time,
Rose and Bernard are lovable,
Juliet is righteous,
Miles is mysterious,
Faraday is quirky,
Charlotte has red hair,
Meg is first and RNM is last,
the island just “poofed”,
the freighter just “boomed”,
the folks in the Zodiac just crapped in their pants,
Widmore is a villain,
Jin and Michael are standing in the unemployment line next to Charlie,
Kearny doesn’t deserve to survive,
iheartsayid, ILBxxx, and lostinVT are all hot for guys on the show,
I’m assuming that iheartsayid, ILBxxx and lostinVT are all females,
the “real” Jeremy Bentham has no head,
No one wants to see Dez and Penny be separated again,
no one I know would know what a anthurium looks like either,
and Sun is going to be one heck of a dragon-lady before this is all over.

BUT, you know . . ? . .

I’m really not interested in dissecting, speculating, distillating, quantum-physiotating, subjectively lala-lating . . . I just want to watch and have a good time without worrying about the destiny of the world as we know it.

I’m taking the wife off to Atlanta for the rest of the day.

Davidrh just wants to have fun!


#118. Posted by: davidrh at May 31, 2008 10:16 AM

One overriding theme: closure.

Jin-Sun relationship story arc: over.
Michael-Walt relationship story arc: done
Kate-Jack relationship story arc: most likely fini.
Charlotte-Dan's junior high puppy love: kaput.
Desmond-Penny relationship arc: completed.

Another theme: succession.
Change of roles is clear:
Locke has replaced Ben
Sawyer has replaced Jack
Juliet has replaced Kate
Charlotte has replaced Juliet
Miles has replaced Sawyer
Bernard has replaced Hurley

Which begs the question: are we going to see a repeat of the same game play (island conflicts) but with different characters in the lead roles?

One important storytelling device was shown during this finale: it was clear that in a flash forward there was a Kate dream sequence. One could argue that puts into question the reality of any of the literary devices. (I once stated that the flash backs were memories; island events current reality; and flash forwards dreams/nightmares.)

I also fear that we are not going to get the big Answers to the Big Mysteries. Now that the island has been "moved," we never got a Hatch-implosion explanation. I believe we will probably never get the island move explanation either. It goes to the basic premise of the series. The story can be science based - - - science fiction - - - fantasy - - - which are all fine in their own right. But when you mix these concepts, it becomes absurdity.

The whole C4 Explosives! thing made no sense. Three trained men stand around it freezing a battery when in fact the detonator panel has its own power source (red light/green light). Worse, the Keamy dead man signal would have never activated the bomb. Keamy was deep below the surface of the island -- a radio signal would not have reached the freighter from where he died.

The junkyard Ben moment also made no sense. The video claimed you were not supposed to put metal in the Vault. But if you look, the Vault was made entirely of metal. It was nice to see the microwave fireworks effect, a way to blow a hole in the rear of the vault, to get to a passageway to the island gearbox. If the island had been moved in the past, why would you build a huge barrier to its access? And once you go deeper into the earth, the hotter it gets, but the wheelhouse was a frozen place. (The only thing I can compare that to is the writings that when Satan was cast out of heaven, he was encased in a a Lake of Ice at the very bottom of hell).

I also thought the wheel to open the Casmir-like effect went beyond the science fiction based assumptions and into fantasy (I immedately thought of the door wheel in Howl's Moving Castle). The fantasy theme was also apparent by Christian showing up on the freighter (he had no connection with Michael, who had seen Lilly vision before).

I also had a problem with the location points. The freighter moved to 5 miles off the island on the bearing which got the Zodiac's first castaways on board. The Zodiac was on its way to the freighter, which was now visible off shore on the horizon. (It was hard to tell whether this was the second or third Zodiac run to the boat at the end). The helicopter, once it lifted off and turned on the correct bearing, should have been able to see the freighter immediately, even before crossing the beach.

When we see the island center goes white flash and disappear from view, this is viewed by both the heli survivors and the Zodiac passengers (meaning they were not blown up by the freighter). This occurred in daylight. From the bearing and relative positions toward the island, the life raft and the Zodiac would have been in the same area, more likely less than two miles from each other, and quite possible within visual contact. So why did they not meet before Penny's boat came by that night? (Penny's boat appeared to have arrived from the direction of the Zodiac line anyway). So it is hard to imagine that Penny's boat would not have picked up the Zodiac survivors. It also means that the Zodiac passengers are now presumed dead: no island and no rescue.

The dislocation of the island location is also problematic. The island was volcanic, meaning that its base is approx 13,000 ft down to the ocean bottom. If the island actually physically "moved" it would have displaced a massive amount of volume. I estimated that volume to be more than 406 million gallons of water - - - and as water immediately seeks its own level, the Zodiac, the life raft, the Freighter debris would have all been sucked down to the bottom of the ocean by a giant whirlpool event. Instead, we see only a circular ripple on the water's surface. If you believe the bunny video explanation, the island is still "there" but can't be seen because its in different "time." But a massive fixed object like an island would still be visible in future time for thousands of years.

If you physically moved the island, which Ben said was dangerous and unpredictable, you have the practical problem of suddenly depositing 50 million cubic feet of volcanic soil on some place on earth. You would think an event like that would be more newsworthy than an O6 news conference.

But if you believe that the real key to finding the island is the bearing point to get through electromagnetic (stealth) shield (the snow globe), it really would not be that difficult to do. (Widmore found the island by using the Black Rock ship log as the reference point). Start in the search zone, and begin your search at each of the 360 compass bearings. Within a year, you would find the right bearing point. But now that the flash forwards are 3 years into the future, apparently no one thought of this plan, including Ben and Widmore.

The end of the episode was more of a shoulder shrug moment than a key revelation. The whole set up for next season is a game of hide and seek; where is the island and how to you find it? Locke never wanted to leave the island in the first place, so leaving the island to recruit the 815ers who have new lives three years later makes little sense. Leaders delegate. Alpert has the experience of recruiting people to the island.

And the idea that "everyone" needs to go back to the "island" in order to save it needs a clear explanation. Like, spirits don't belong in a material world.


#119. Posted by: welh at May 31, 2008 10:33 AM

Next season starts in 2009!??!?! Dammit.

#120. Posted by: Matt at May 31, 2008 10:35 AM

@ ealgumby - 85
Haha.

@ dk - 90
I think it's definitely a possibility that when Christian said, "You can go now" that he meant, "You can finally die, Michael".

@ Clementine - 97
"Anyone else think that time was reversing when the Orchid video started to rewind? Or did it fast-forward?"

Yeah, I noticed that too. I thought I was going crazy though, so I just brushed it off.

@ kaseygirl106 -
I personally thought Juliet was fliriting with Danny boy, but he gave her a brush off because he was crushing on Charlotte.

But Juliet and Sawyer... Maybe. If they get really desprate.

I don't think Charlotte is Ben's daughter. He's not old enough for that... even though we don't know his age -- I just doesn't make sense.

@ davidrh - 118
You know a lot. =D (evil smiley)

#121. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 10:54 AM

Jeremy/John coming back to tell the O6 that terrible things started happening on the island after they left is extremely significant - not because it gives us all a hint of what is to come, but whatever is happening must be bad enough to get JL to leave the island. I don't think John would EVER leave that island for any reason whatsoever - unless the island/Jacob forced him to leave.

So, I expect that John ends up in short coffin because he somehow crosses Jacob and Jacob takes back the gift the island gave him - the use of his legs. Something sinister will happen to John...

Tragically, just as he has been used his entire life by being an unknowing rube, John is and has been used by Ben, Jacob and the island. His last usefulness to Jacob will be to be get the the O6 back to the island...to ensure that the ONE person the island and Jacob really need to have returns never to leave again....

Aaron. I have no idea why I think any of this.

Don't you just know that the writers are having SO MUCH FUN on this series??? I'm envious to say the least...

#122. Posted by: SonnyESQ at May 31, 2008 10:55 AM

Have not read all the posts yet, but will after posting my future theory. Very nice recap by the way, well done.

Ben works for Ben. EVERYTHING he does, is for Ben. And Ben wants the island back, his alpha roll!

I heard on a podcast that this season ended with the O6 getting off, next season is about getting back, and the last season is about the future.

I think that the reason Ben says that EVERYONE must go back, is because the "back" Ben is referring too, is WAY back, in time. Ben wants to take the O6 and Locke back is so they can rewrite the future!

Yeah, it's rather crack pot, but I think it would be cool. Ben wants to go back and not only save a few folks on the freighter that he finally feels responsible for, but also his daughter. So he wants to go waaaay back and rewrite destiny.

Which is how he gets Sun to join them, for a chance to save her husband. And to help Hurley get rid of the number jinx, and for Sayid to get Nadia back, alive, and for Jack to get back to being the old Jack, and for Kate to......well, there is no real advantage for Kate to go back, and according to Claire, if Kate takes Aaron back, she will haunt her nightly!

So getting Kate to go back will come to kidnapping, or multiple episode persuasions, or deceit from Ben.

I think the latter.

But the reason everyone has to go back, is for them to have any possible way of rewriting the future, they all have to go back and take a "redo", anyone left in the future timeline will royally screw everything up!

Have a great day, see you all next year!

#123. Posted by: dcj3400 at May 31, 2008 10:59 AM

Have not had a chance to read comments yet, and am not certain when I will get a chance to do so....

Some quick thoughts....

Sun/Jin

As always, I still believe that Jin is amongst the living, though it is clear that Sun believes he bit the big one. I would assume that the 2nd person she blames is Jack, because he stopped Kate from bringing Jin to the chopper.

Now that we know that Jeremy Bentham visited people before his death, it could very well be that he visited Sun and told her that Jin survived. I expect we will see this at some point in S5, and this will serve as Sun's motivation for returning the island. Actually, it might also be why she took over control of Paik's company - This might be step one towards the ultimate plan of tracking down the island.

Chances are - Michael is sleeping with the fishes, but they kept the window of opportunity open for him to survive. Christian implies that he can finally die, but the meaning could be broader. Also, we don't actually see him die - from the conversation with Christian, the scene goes to a shot of the boat from afar blowing up - this could easily serve as a means for the writers to save him if he is actually needed further down the line...

re: Jeremy Bentham

While watching the episode, it was clear that it was going to be either Locke or Ben in the coffin - for pure shock value. As soon as Ben appeared, it just had to be Locke.

I don't believe Locke is dead - he's either in some sort of Medusa spider haze, or something similar. Can't help but feel that the island will revive him once they return. Perhaps even a double - we saw with the leaked Orchid video that this type of thing is perhaps possible?

re: Widmore

With Sun's conversation with him, I think it most certainly was implied that he was once of the island. Who knows - perhaps he was the leader pre-Ben, was forced to move the island, and was thus banished?

re: Charlotte

So - born on the island, eh? Clearly, she will have been involved in whatever happened when Widmore was ousted. Heck - it even crossed my mind that maybe she was Widmore's daughter somehow. I expect there will be a bigger twist - there is no way that she is Ben's childhood friend (too young), but perhaps she is the blood daughter he never knew he had? Who knows!

Thoughts....

I wonder how things will go with the Penny/Desmond storyline? Does Desmond publicly resurface with some other story to explain where he was all those years, or does he go via alias? Will the island demand that he has to head back too in order for it to be found? Perhaps ghost Charlie will be able to persuade him, as it seems that Desmond lied about the image of Claire hopping into a chopper with Aaron.

Time to read.....

#124. Posted by: shikotee at May 31, 2008 11:00 AM

→ 118. Posted by: davidrh
Like Carl’s earlier post, I, too, know that choppers literally fall out of the sky and don’t “glide in for landings;
- - - -
Then that makes you both very wrong.

#125. Posted by: DocH at May 31, 2008 11:12 AM

Okay gentlemen - the one way to solve your chopper question is to rent one, go way up above the ocean, then shut it down and see what happens to ya!! :) HA, that should stop the arguing...

#126. Posted by: meg at May 31, 2008 11:23 AM

Ref. 119 welh said:
> The whole C4 Explosives! thing made no sense.

I agree with you. Des said if the battery is disconnected, bomb! My question is: Isn't that a frozen battery is virtually a disconnected one?

For the radio activation thing, I think one possibility is that the bomb is not only triggered by a heart-beat-is-stopped-signal, also, the bomb detonates if no signal is received for a period of time. So yeah if Kemay does not surface to the ground within a grace period, he will be sorry and become one of the lostie.

#127. Posted by: JustBeenHere at May 31, 2008 11:27 AM

Maybe when Locke's corpse is returned to the island he will be as Christian Shephard is now... "alive" either literally or metaphysically. Don't forget CS arrived at the island in a less than frisky state himself, and now he's talking walks on the beach and through the jungle, and kicking back in cozy ghost-cabins. We still don't know *what* it means, but perhaps Obi-Locke is destined for the same fate, perhaps to go to some "higher plane" to continue serving the island. After all, his nickname-sake Obi-Wan also became an ethereal being more powerful than Widmore, er, Darth can possibly imagine too.

#128. Posted by: catbarf at May 31, 2008 11:32 AM

Why didn't we see Hurley get into the lifeboat? Because it wasn't important to the story and would have been a distracting sideshow to a dramatic moment.

Perhaps in real life, the bomb can be defused, the freighter explodes differently, Aaron cries when he is hungry, a helicopter falls and doesn't glide, and a heart moniter can not transmit its signal from underground.

The fictional world of Lost doesn't exist in our world and doesn't have to play by our rules, anymore than the worlds of Narnia, Star Wars, Gilgamesh or the Odyssey do. We suspend belief when we watch science fiction or read an old epic, but struggle with something like Lost b/c it is telling a mythic story that happens to take place in our time.

Lost has lost 50% of its original viewers because you're either all in, or all out. If we accept that fate uses car crashes to intervene when necessary, or that the dead deliver important messages, or that people can not be killed until they've played their predestined roles, then why question the flight plan of Oceanic 815 or the material composition of the vault?

When Ben went to summon the smoke monster, he entered a secret chamber (behind a newer Dharma wall) covered by ancient egyptian glyphs. After hearing about the Casimir Effect and negatively charged exotic matter in the Dharma station, what do we actually get? Two stone pillars with more glyphs and an old manual wheel that looks almost exactly like the Dharma Wheel, a central symbol in Buddhism. No futuristic, highly sophisticated, perhaps alien technology.

Lost is a mashed sandwich where one half is the extreme edge of theoretical physics and the other side are mankind's oldest myths and religious symbols, and then sprinkled in is enough human romance, comedy and drama to keep it interesting and viable enough to work as a network television show.

#129. Posted by: Mizzed at May 31, 2008 11:43 AM

→ 126. Posted by: meg
Okay gentlemen - the one way to solve your chopper question is to rent one, that should stop the arguing...
- - - -
Oh, I wasn't arguing. I was stating fact. The falling straight down autorotation thing applies to low (in-ground-effect) hovering... and even then you'd want a little forward momentum so as not to the ding tail rotor.
(Do not make me whip it out meg... my credentials that is.)

#130. Posted by: DocH at May 31, 2008 11:44 AM

→ 129. Posted by: Mizzed - The fictional world of Lost doesn't exist in our world and doesn't have to play by our rules.

You said it brotha. But I will comment on a few things mentioned here so far within the context of the show itself:

→ 102 Posted by KMFPL - Exactly what frequency was Keamy's heart monitor broadcasting on?

And if the sat phone message was off time, wouldn't the heart monitor be as well? (though I suppose it could have been and we just didn't see that)

→ 119 Posted by welh - But a massive fixed object like an island would still be visible in future time for thousands of years.

Great point, I thought the same thing. If I moved my couch 5 minutes or 5 days ahead or behind, it would still be in the same physical location. True, that's playing by my rules of space/time, but in that case what ARE the Lost rules?

→ 97 posted by Clementine - Anyone else think that time was reversing when the Orchid video started to rewind? Or did it fast-forward?

So Dharma can develop an intricate set of research stations with advanced technology, monitoring devices, security precautions and lights that seem to flicker on no matter how long they haven't been used, yet they can't make a video that plays cleanly from start to finish?

Finally, is it possible Charlotte is Ben's sister?

#131. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 31, 2008 12:05 PM

@Carl/109, et al
"If the room is on the island, how do we get a frozen vault in the tropics?"

The only thing that "makes sense" (ha ha) is that the exotic matter producing the Casimir effect in the cave/vault, has "negative mass," and hence "nagative temperature" (wiki "exotic matter" for info). I'm not sure what negative temperature means in the "real" world, but in fairness to the writers, I guess it could be interepretted as being incredibly cold. SO, maybe the exotic matter resides behind the wall with the wheel (what mechanism/geometry/configuration? who knows, and irrelevant to the story anyway ... no matter what they might show, it would be made up w/o scientific basis, which is why they probably never will show what lies behind the wheel-wall), and its negative temperature freezes everything within the cave (including moisture in the air, creating the ice sheet over the entry?).

"Is it possible that the Others are survivors of the Rock and discovered the frozen cavern and its powers long ago."

Remember when Locke and Ben were taking SO long to ride the elevator down to the real Orchid Station, and Locke asked how deep it was? Whether by the hieroglyph people, or Black Rock crew, how would they get so far underground to ever find this cave in the first place? That's a mighty long way to carry a big wooden wheel (or even its component parts) down a long, LONG twisting cave, if there was supposed to be a natural cave leading to that depth (which seems to be the only possibility, plausible or not). Also, is there supposed to be no metal in the cave, as with the vault? Someone said the ladder was metal, but I thought wood upon viewing (?). The lantern Ben lit up though, was definitely metal ... then again, maybe there is no restriction against metal in the cave (I guess that was just my first thought upon seeing the wooden wheel, ladder [?]and stone pillars).

Anyway, my point is that even where deep caves exist (and most are not), signs of ancient humans deep within them are basically unheard of. I know the island is unique, blah blah blah, but just question why the writers felt compelled to make the Orchid Station so far underground ... does this serve some plot purpose, or just to make it more mysterious. If the latter, then they also succeeeded in making it incredibly hard to swallow (and I know, it's not like everything else is easy to swallow ... but one way to make the "impossible" stuff easier to swallow is to imbed it in surrounding material that's perfectly plausible, lending the impossible stuff more of an air of credibility than it rightly deserves.)

#132. Posted by: ealgumby at May 31, 2008 12:21 PM

I have read through the posts and have so much to touch on, but the finale is complex and it may take a while to dissect it all. (Good thing we have 7 months.)

So, appears that as soon as Ben moves the island, he is transported to the dessert...since he is still in his Dharma parka and his wound is still fresh. It appears that he arrives at the hotel not too long after he kills the one man in the desert and disarms the other. When he said that he can't return to the island after moving it, wonder how long he has to leave? When did he grab his passport/id/"Gold Star" hotel card since he was a returning customer, that he showed the hotel clerk...? Also, after checking in, that is when he saw the news coverage of the goings on in Iraq and the news coverage of Sayid and in Iraq to bury his murdered wife...? That moment may have had Ben just a day or merely hours from when he moved the island and Sayid burying his wife would have been months/a year after the island was moved from the helicopter perspective? What is the disconnect with the timelines?

#133. Posted by: boodle at May 31, 2008 12:24 PM

Ooops...desert...not dessert. (That sugar addiction was in full swing when posting #133.

#134. Posted by: boodle at May 31, 2008 1:07 PM

The interesting thing about the frozen vault that have not yet been explored are the glyphs on the column and the stacked rocks immediately to the left of that column. I suggest that the original inhabitants (from the Black Rock? the Others?) found the cavern long ago, entering through a larger cave. That allowed them to install the wheel. They then closed off the entry cave (the stacked rocks) and used only the smaller cave to enter so they could better protect it.

Questions -

At some point, how did somebody know how to install a wheel to move the island? Have there always been whispers from the island directing people?

What does this wheel supposedly do? It turns less than a full turn and causes sparkling lights inside a rock chamber? To do what?

I do think Richard is somehow "timeless", maybe even dead, and is directly linked to the island. The Others might be the same. Somehow they need a live body to directly interact with the island, hence Ben and then Locke.

Why does John have to stay dead? The island has clearly been shown to have influence off the island. Why can't it heal John or take him back to when he is still alive?

Why did none of Danielle's original French crew appear back from the dead?

Okay, like some one said above, I am beyond expecting a realistic scientific explanation. I accept that isn't in the cards. I'll just enjoy the show.

And DocH, I'm not interested in an argument about helicopter dynamics, although I could go there. Not interested in boring anyone else with that. Simply watch the show and watch the movements of the helicopter. It accelerates forward AFTER losing power. Sorry. Gravity and physics do not allow that. You cannot go from a hover to forward movement without power. And without a tail rotor, at some point the tail begins to turn, although in this case they were low enough that it wouldn't have been excessive.

#135. Posted by: Carl at May 31, 2008 1:12 PM

i dont know if this has been said before but did anyone hear what sawyer whispered to kate just before he jumped out of the helicopter?

#136. Posted by: kaseygirl106 at May 31, 2008 1:18 PM

The Sox game last night went into extra innnings (but had a very happy ending, so no complaints!), so I am just getting to vacc's review now. First off some of my initial reactions (some of which I posted in the last thread).

Best line of the night was "If you mean time travelling bunnies, then yes"

Best interchanges: Miles asking why Charlotte would want to leave after she spent so long trying to get back. She then asks him want he means, and his response, "Yes, what do I mean by that?" was great. (Does everyone else concur that given her statement to Daniel that we're supposed to think Char was born there? She tells him she's searching for her birthplace, right?)

Second was Hurley's face after Lapidus says he would be happier if they lost another 200 pounds!

I have to say that I found some of the Pop-Up Video version of part one annoying...do people who watch Lost really need to be told that the Wizard of Oz is a story about returning home?
Having said that, I was on the edge of my seat when Jack mentioned Boone, Libby, and Charlie as being the others who were in the "8" that made it to the island.

I had assumed all along that the "lie" had been concocted by Ben, or perhaps by Widmore. Now that we know that it was Jack who was the architect of the lie, why those three? I had thought Charlie was one of them since he was the only person to have contact directly with the outside world, but if Penny is going to keep the Oceanic 6's secret, surely she wouldn't blurt out that she had had a video conference with the lead singer of Drive Shaft at some dinner party! Anyone have any ideas why they needed more survivors (other than just to make a more convincing story), and why those 3?

Just as I was starting to like Benjamin Linus...I can understand him killimg Keamy, I'd want to stab him to death too after watching him heartlessly shoot my (purely hypothetical) daughter, but his callous reaction when Locke pointed out that he also killed everyone on that freighter made me glad that Jacob picked Locke to go with him to the finale (although Jacob would surely get more Jury votes going up against Benry). All we needed was Jeff Probst snuffing out his torch.

As far as Sun goes, does she blame Jack as the other person who killed Jin, for not going back to the freighter to get him? Does she blame Ben for killing Keamy and setting off the explosives? Or does she blame Widmore for sending the commando team in the first place, and maybe she is working for Ben like Sayid is? Kim Yoon-jin is a great actress, and made quite a name for herself in Korea in a film called Shiri (check it out if you haven't), where she plays a double agent. Is she entrapping Widmore as a double agent?

I found it interesting that Claire appeared to Kate in a dream, and not as a waking apparition like Christian has appeared to Michael and Jack off the island, or Charlie and Mr. Eko (appearantly) have to Hurley. Does this mean that Claire might still be alive? When Claire told Kate not to dare bring Aaron back (to the island, presumably), was that Claire talking, Kate's subconcious, or the island?

I loved the way the man in the coffin was revealed. First we found out it wasn't Michael (sharkbait) or Ben (standing there alive as he ever was), and then the lift up and over the lid to reveal Locke. Why was Locke using the name Jeremy Bentham? Are we to believe his "suicide" was caused by Widmore? Why did the Island let him die?

Speaking of the Island keeping people alive, I thought for a while the freighter wouldn't explode because the Island was protecting Michael. When Christian showed up though, I knew it was bad news for anyone on the boat!

What happened to Daniel and the Zodiac? They were still on the way to the freighter when it exploded...were they rescued as well? Wouldn't Lapidus have had the Searcher look for them before it sailed to Indonesia?

And were Rose and Bernard on the Zodiac, or on the beach? I only recall seeing Juliet and Sawyer on the Beach at the end, but there could have been others back at the camp. We certainly know Miles and Charlotte stayed behind.

Finally, this has been a great and interesting show about a group of poeple stranded on a strange island trying to get home. For the last two seasons, the producers have changed the paradigm, as more than half of the regular cast are now off the island in the present. We'll see if TPTB can keep me interested, or if Lost will turn into something less thrilling like the Six (or whatever that Scott Wolfe show about the people who survived the bank robbery was called).

It's a long time till January!!

DW posted in part 1’s thread #791:
>@776/FenwayBen
Why Boone, Libby, and Charlie as the three that died? Boone talked on the Heroin plane radio. Charlie talked on the radio to Penny.
Did Libby have any possible contact to the outside world? Or maybe it's a shoutout to Hurley's girlfriend!

Boone, IIRC, spoke with Bernard on the radio. If that's why Boone was included, why not Bernard as well?

Libby was also responsible for giving the boat to Desmond that took him to the island. As far as we know, Desmond never knew she was on Oceanic 815, since he was not at the hatch during the period she was there (well, there and alive at the same time). We also don't know if Desmond's return from being lost at sea has been made public or not, I felt like he and Penny were going into hiding. Maybe that's why Widmore said Ben would never find her, because even he can't find his own daughter?

ilovecharlotte posted in part 1’s thread #805:
>How is it that Walt isn't a give-away that the Oceanic Six are lying?
Wouldn't somebody figure out that this kid was a passenger on the plane?
Or is it simply that he was in Australia and now is in NY where nobody knows who he is / was?
Did he use a different name when he enrolled in his new school? "Welcome Walt Lloyd, wow - that's the same name as that kid that died on Oceanic 815 that you kind of look like, what a coincidence."

Michael changed his and Walt's names. Walt had been living in Australia, so he didn't have any friends or classmates in New York that would recognize him. I doubt that they ran photos of everyone who died on the crash in most papers, and even if they did who would memorize such a thing? Plus Walt is like 10 feet taller than when the plane crashed, so no one would think he was the same kid anyhow! :P

Cecil Rose posted in part 1’s thread #820:
>So Ben said the one who moved the island can't *stay* on the island, and he was wearing his DharmaParka when he entered Superman's Fortress of Ice. (I didn't get a good look at the logo or name on the parka).
Are we supposed to understand that this process somehow ejected him into te Sahara desert, and from thence his war on Widmore began?
Also, who else thinks that Ben's "So?" was a Dick Cheyney call-out?

Ben was wearing Halliwax's parka with the Orchid logo on it, both when he moved the island and when he appeared in Tunisia. Given that the injury to his arm occurred in the Fortress of Solitude, and had not yet been bandaged when he arrived in Tunisia, I believe we are meant to think one follows the other directly.

As far as Cheney goes, I didn't think that at the time, but now that you say it!

Okay, now to read Vacc's review and your newer words of wisdom!

#137. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 31, 2008 1:37 PM

Thank you guys, you make me watch the show again.

One funny thing about the cave. When Ben smashed the glass window, there was no ladder down the cave (around 58:36). But two seconds later (58:38) the wooden ladder appears! O_o' everything is so weired and not compile to our common sense! And the lantern too, clearly there was enough light in the cave to see everything, why did Ben have to light up a not so helping lantern? Some kind of ritual?

And yeah, we can now see the four forces, starting from the weakest:

1.Jacob - being held captive or temporarily put away from his commanding chair by Christian Shephard. basically just yelling for help from Locke.

2.Widmore - achieved nothing from his plan and all he can do is to spend money to recruits to finish his deed by force and arms. oh and he got an outdated deck log.

3.Ben and Locke – recently being tricked by Christian Shephard to move the island so that the O6 (or mainly Aaron?) can never go back. But at least, Ben has found Widmore and actively bringing the O6 back together, unlike Widmore. seemingly he has got Sayid and Jack back, probably Sun too, the rest are easy.

4.Christian Shephard – the most successful person (Fallen angel?) in S4. Manipulated everyone: Michael (even his time of death), Claire (joined force), Jacob (impersonated), Ben and Locke (tricked), Aaron (sent off the island).

#138. Posted by: JustBeenHere at May 31, 2008 2:13 PM

I believe that Jin is still alive, mostly due to the way the show handled it... NO BODY or close-up of his dying face being the most obvious. His conversation with Michael didn't have a "last words" ring to it. Sun gets free character development just by thinking he's dead for years on end, and there's potential for a big dramatic payoff if there's a reunion in S6. His character arc (nice guy to jerk back to nice guy again) is pretty much resolved, so he *could* be dead, but usually the writers focus on a character just prior to killing them, tying up loose ends with the character arc, giving them an epilogue of sorts. I got no sense of this... everything the show has done re: Jin was to set up Sun's future as vengeful dragon lady rather than Jin's death. Jin seems to have more purpose on this show than just "Sun's husband". I predict he'll be back. How, I don't know, but one should always be suspicious of "death by huge fireball" where TV is concerned.

#139. Posted by: catbarf at May 31, 2008 2:36 PM

@@@@@@@@@

Wasn't too thrilled with too much of that episode. Yeah, 2 hours worth (or 3 if you watched them altogether)was impressive and very fun to watch, but I was hoping for more supernatural aspects and getting at least a few of the old questions answered (Adam & Eve - the cave skeletons, Marvin Candle, the Numbers, the heiroglyphics, the whispers, the Smoke Monster, etc etc) and all the episode did was deliver new mysteries and wrap up the storyline of how those particular castaways made it home... like I said, awesome episode, no doubt - but I think I just have such strong hopes for the show and I totally look forward to watching it, I'm interested like a mofo, but... just a tad dissapointed that the show ended ... and I want to find something to bitch about I guess... and, uh,... um... like,... what I mean to say is... uh... ah, SCREW IT! I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT SEASON FRIGGIN' STARTS!

(And tht last sentence is in all caps - cuz that's how I rizzoll.)

@@@@@@@@@@@@

John Lennon said in the song "Beautiful Boy" that, "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." I've tweaked that line to make it my own: LIFE IS NOTHING BUT THE FILLER BETWEEN EPISODES OF LOST.

ILOVEBENJAMINLINUSXXX - Can you take tha above quote and make something out of it in using your PHOTOSHOP skills? Can anyone be creative (shout out to Bcr8tve!!) and do something with it? Maybe we can wear t-shirts with that printed on it at our first annual MAC LOST BLOG BARBEQUE!

@@@@@@@@

It's gonna be a long hiatus... et tu hiatus? et tu?

@@@@@@@@

It's thundering and lightning here in good 'ole Niagara Falls, NY. Soon I'll hear whispers.


@@@@@@@@

I always wondered how Danielle Rousseau was able to keep her armpits so hairless and smooth. Think about it.

@@@@@@@@

That's all from Yours Truly for now.

Peace & Humptyness Forever.

MR. NAYSAYER

#140. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 31, 2008 3:12 PM

So who (off island) KNOWS that the O6 are lying?
Obviously the O6 (minus) Aaron
1. Jack
2. Kate
3. Sayid
4. Hurley
5. Sun

and...

6. Desmond
7. Penny (probably)
8. Henrik (?)
9. Mathias (?)
10. Charles Widmore
11. Ben

Anyone else??

I don't think the Oceanic representative has anything to do with it... I'm surprised she didn't ask them any questions (from what we saw)... she simply defended them (i.e. Kate's baby)

@ kaseygirl106 - 136
Some have speculated before that he asked Kate to do something involving Cassidy and Clementine for him.

Did anyone notice that the freighter just blew up around the deck area? (Not near the rooms and stuff where the bombs were). I might be dillusional or something, but that's what I remember noticing. I need to watch it again. I'm probably just imagining it.

I think that they made sure they picked people that were actually dead as the other three. I don't know why, but that would explain why they didn't pick Bernard.

Why would Walt agree to throw that experience away? I wouldn't. I'd use it as something to write about in my college apps. JUST KIDDING.

If Jin/Michael were still alive, they'd have no way to get back to the island. The island is GONE, what now? Same with Daniel and all them Zodiac folks.

And let's hypathetically say that they did somehow get back... Wouldn't Locke (Jeremy Bentham) tell Sun this when he "visits" her?

#141. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 3:25 PM

26. Posted by: Mizzed

I don't remember - did you add Kate to the list of daddy killers?

#142. Posted by: berkyo at May 31, 2008 3:29 PM

@ Mr_Naysayer - 140
"John Lennon said in the song "Beautiful Boy" that, "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." I've tweaked that line to make it my own: LIFE IS NOTHING BUT THE FILLER BETWEEN EPISODES OF LOST."

Haha!!! I love that!!! And I completely agree.

Yes, I will do something with that using my photoshop skillzzzzzzzzzz. =]

and bcre8ve (I may have said this before, but I don't remember getting an answer) -- If you need help with the portrait, I can help.

#143. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 3:35 PM

Great review Vacc! I didn’t envy you the task of filling Mac’s size 13s for this of all episodes. Well done!

Thanks for the shout out, Davidrh (#16). I wanted to get my thoughts out after the first viewing. Glad you enjoyed them.

Cecil Rose (#57) had a lot to say in response to Vacc’s review. Here is some of it:
>>Locke desperately fights to keep Keamy alive.
>My solution: Strap the monitor to your own arm, john.

Yeah, I thought the same thing!

>> With a final flash of brilliance, the light returns to normal, and there is a brief ripple in the sea where the Island had been only moments ago.
>Disappearing along with my suspension of disbelief. Oh, I’ll still watch, but convincing me that this is all rationally explainable gets harder and harder.

I actually thought the effect was really well done. And I don’t find it much stranger than the other things we’ve been exposed to. My biggest concern is not a lack of a rational explanation, but that the people off the island are just inherently less interesting than they were on the island.

>> We don't see the raftaways again until after dark. Jack sees Aaron snoozing peacefully in Kate's lap and asks how he's doing.
>And we all still wonder “What has this nursing baby been eating the last few days?”

I told you all in a previous thread, Claire pumps and dumps. ;)

Clementine (#97) said:

>And, what the heck?! Ben wants Jack to lug Locke’s embalmed corpsitude back to the island??!! I can’t wait to see the writers navigate those scenes. If we had the Three Stooges this year, maybe it’s Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein for next season.

More like Weekend at Bernie’s, surely? ;)

@ Herne (#110) said:
>Something that's been missed so far - Sun dropped Des in it when she told Widmore "We're not the only ones who made it off the island.."
:o(

I took it to mean Ben, but she could have meant Desmond. Widmore knows Ben is off the island, he was already paid a visit by him.

#144. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 31, 2008 3:40 PM

41 mizzed
"4. Christian (or something using his image) is not speaking for Jacob and is part of the opposing force."

I agree. As a matter of fact, I was the one who said that;-)

So, do you think Claire is really dead? I don't. I 'Think" we saw everybody else actually bleed or break something or drown. Why did we not see her die? If she actually died in the house bombing, then that was a mean trick on us. This show is confusing enough concerning dead people, let alone fake stealth deaths.


"Ben, a classic unreliable narrator. He is the ultimate manipulator, the ultimate deceiver"
I think there are two or more competing forces concerning the island. I always thought The Hostiles were good guys. But Now that John is dead, I am wondering if he was just used by Ben and the Hostiles because he is so gullible and anxious to believe. Ben's good bye - sorry I made your life so miserable-seemed to me to indicate that Ben knew what was coming.

I am so unhappy that I don't have time to read all the posts:-((((

It will take me weeks to finish.... hey, That's ok. I have weeks to spend reading now, don't I?

#145. Posted by: berkyo at May 31, 2008 3:56 PM

I thought about John attatching the monitor to his arm too, but then I thought, there's still that one second trying to move it from Keamy's arm to Locke's arm that will make the bomb go off because the monitor will think that the heart stopped beating.

#146. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 4:33 PM

146. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

You beat me to the punch. I was going to say the same thing. Locke would have to remove the piece that was strapped around his chest and there would be no heart beat during the transfer.

Also, comment on a previous post regarding Claire's seemingly lack of an accent... After a re-watch...I thought the same thing... Hmmm...what could that mean...?

#147. Posted by: boodle at May 31, 2008 4:46 PM

Someone earlier made a "Weekend at Bernie's" comment regarding the return of Locke's body to the island. I get the giggles just thinking about it. They'll have to spray him down with some deoderant, dress him up, buy him a ticket, etc. in order to bring him back to the island. It's going to be hilarious!

Okay, probably not, but it's fun to think about...

#148. Posted by: meg at May 31, 2008 5:13 PM

Mr_Naysayer and everyone else:

There's no "creativity" yet... but...

I was having fun with some quotes.
http://tinyurl.com/4rqr5b

And here's a "Sample T-Shirt". I used me, because I'm the only one I saw the southpark thing of.
http://tinyurl.com/4wxdro

I know, lame. I'll come up with something better.

#149. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 5:21 PM

I just realized that I stupidly changed, "Life is" to "Life's" in the first one.

Sorry Mr_Naysayer.

#150. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 5:26 PM

I'm thinking of changing my screen name to ilovemartinkeamyxx. ;) I know he's evil and probably deserved to die, etc. But I just have a thing for them bad boys!
BRING KEAMY BACK!!

#151. Posted by: Trinity at May 31, 2008 5:54 PM

@Trinity - LOL, I know what you mean. I can't figure out why I am still attracted to him after what he did. I have to admit though, I didn't like the way he roughed up Kate. I like the bad boys who are kind.

#152. Posted by: meg at May 31, 2008 6:09 PM

New to posting - just a few thoughts;

I guessed in the beginning when we first saw the coffin that Locke was in it.

Now I can understand how Locke got off the island. He told Jack some terrible things happened after Jack left, what if Locke had to move the island again because of those terrible things and thats how Locke got off the Island, like Ben did. Widmore found him and had him killed.
I hope my theory on Sun is correct in that I think she is working with Widmore to destroy him.
I also think that Jin is alive and we will see him on the Island once again.

#153. Posted by: Grapekat at May 31, 2008 6:16 PM

Oh, my head is buzzing! Not just from the most jam-packed episode, but also from all the awesome commentary. Just reading this blog makes me feel like my IQ is going up a few points.

I'm about to take a page from Meg's book, start drinking some wine, and try to watch all three hours again to make some sense of it.

Speaking of making sense:

Throughout the entire series of The X-Files, Mulder's cell phone worked in the most improbable places, until it was important to the plot for the phone NOT to work. Let's assume Keamy's heart monitor is on the same frequency as Mulder's cell.

One thing that's bothering me: I got teary-eyed back when Ben saw Alex die. First time I ever felt anything remotely kind towards him, because Ben is evil. (No competition here for ILBLxx) When he released the smoke monster, that was the act of a grieving man.
But in this episode, when he attacked and stabbed Keamy, it seemed ungenuine and staged. I'm wondering, "Did Ben kill Keamy because he knew it would kill all of the survivors who'd made it off the island?" Was this the act of a grieving man, or a man who'd do anything to protect the island?

Oh my God, Ben killed Keamy!
You b@st@rd!

#154. Posted by: jaybee at May 31, 2008 6:45 PM

141. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
walt and his grandmother also know it is a lie

#155. Posted by: surefoot at May 31, 2008 6:48 PM

Okay, so I watched the episode again... and I noticed a few things.

I don't recall anyone mentioning any of these things, but if they did... sorry.

First off, when they showed John in the coffin, his scar was gone! Where did his scar go???

Jack pretty much killed all the "happy moments" for everyone. What a freak.

So Jack told Hurley that he'll go back for Claire and Sawyer. Probably why he feels guilty.

Ben says, "Sorry I made your life so miserable". He said LIFE. He said HE ruined John's life. Maybe I'm over-thinking it.

@ Trinity - 151
Funny, but that might get confusing. Lol.

@ surefoot - 155
Oh yeah, thanks. I meant to add them -- I must have forgotten when I typed it up.

#156. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 7:31 PM

If Charlotte was born on the island, that means the infertility issue is a temporary problem, unless she was conceived off-island (killing the Ben love child theory).

We've seen the island's healing properties for those spiritually aligned such as Rose and Locke. We've also seen what happens to those not aligned with the island- Ben (is that a tumor or are you just happy to see me) and Jack, who happens to get appendicitis right in the middle of trying to get off the island.

So by doing our trademarked 2+2=5 speculative island math, we are left with the idea that there will be a child born on the island who presents a threat to the island/timeline/fate, etc. So what does the Great Deceiver do? Tries to go around Jacob and/or the island by bringing in Juliet to solve the problem. And why do we still believe Ben is trying to protect the island?

cue scene: Jacob's cabin

Malevolent Force: "Hey, there, Jakey-boy. Just wanted to give you the 411 that my evil apprentice Ben has promised me I can have the next Other baby for my very own playtoy. I'm becoming corporeal again so I can kick your skinny dog-painting rump all over this island".

Jacob: "Ben has always been an idiot. I don't know why the tribe selected him as its leader."

Malevolent Force: "Because I pretended I was the ghost of his dead mother and tricked Nature Boy Rick Alpert into thinking Benji was special".

Jacob: "You'd think after a few thousand years that guy would be smart enough to recognize the 'he followed his dead mother into the woods' routine. That gag's so old it has hair on it. And that whole old Egyptian eyeliner thing..??"

Malevolent Force: "He says the Black Rock pirates told him the look was in again, something about Johnny Depp".

Jacob: "Whatever. From now on, no more babies born on the island. So let it be written, so let it be done".

Malevolent Force: "Fine. I'll just take a corpse then- babies take too long away, and their large heads are freaky."

Jacob: "No way, Jose. All dead bodies to be burned and destroyed immediately. So unless it starts raining dead bodies from the sky, you're SOL".

60 days later.........

Jacob: "Not you again. And what in God's name are you wearing?"

Malevolent Force: "The label says it's called a Christian. And look, it comes with these fancy white sneakers, and a live-in daughter to do all that cookin' and cleanin'. Time for me to dish out a little payback for all those times that Daddy said you were his favorite".

Jacob: "Daddy just said that because he was afraid I would do that Osiris thing and chop him into little pieces".

Malevolent Force: "You did chop him into little pieces. And then you stole my share of the birthright".

Jacob: "You wanted to muck up the time/space continuim. Mom said you never could handle responsibility".

Malevolent Force: "Well, its mucking up time now! Goodspeed cabin, I'm home! Jacob- don't let the door hit you on the way out. Oh and if you try any funny stuff I WILL make Ben move the time wheel. Now get lost, hoser".

Jacob: "WAAALLLTTTT!"

#157. Posted by: Mizzed at May 31, 2008 7:40 PM

I don't think Claire ditched the Australian accent, I just think the little amount she said...and how she said it (with vehement volume) made it sound less Australian. I would say her face looked more different than her accent sounded. It looked larger, like she had gained weight. It just wasn't 'Claire' to me.

But her wig was beautiful as usual. Totally realistic and endearing...

#158. Posted by: JoePike at May 31, 2008 7:59 PM

Thanks for all the kind words about my substitute recapping. I really enjoyed doing it - especially being able to help out mac.

I admit that there was one moment near the end where it started to sink in just how much transpired in this episode - and I nearly panicked. The terror was just so… crazy. So real. So I just made a choice. I'd let the fear in, let it take over, let it do its thing, but only for five seconds, that's all I was going to give it. So I started to count: One, two, three, four, five. Then it was gone.

But while doing this, I MISSED the last five seconds. Can someone tell me who was in the coffin?

#159. Posted by: vacc at May 31, 2008 8:04 PM

@ Mizzed - 167
Haha... that was great.

#160. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 8:06 PM

AND another HAHA to Vacc - 159
that was greatER. =D (Evil smiley)
Muahahahahahahaha (evil laugh... attempted).

#161. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 8:09 PM

Just rewatched part 2 of 3. Some thoughts:

→ 156. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx re: Ben saying to Locke, "Sorry I made your LIFE so miserable."

I thought that was interesting, too, as well as Alpert's comment to Locke, "Welcome home."

So, um, why is Farraday still wearing a tie?

And what about all the stuff they tossed out of the chopper, especially that metal case. Think we'll see them wash ashore next season?

Finally, I could have sworn that Walt said to Hurley, "Hey Aaron." Am I hearing things?

#162. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 31, 2008 8:39 PM

I have a question about the lies (sorry if this has been posted, only read about half, don't want to lose my train of thought.

If the 6 saw the island disappear, why would they assume the people on it were still alive? I know by the time we saw the flash forwards they had already been contacted and told they had to go back, but they wouldn't know for sure that moving the island wouldn't kill everyone on it. Jack told them to lie before they knew people were still on it wherever it is. Do I make any sense?
Sorry if I don't.

#163. Posted by: LostMamacita at May 31, 2008 8:43 PM

I will still watch for the next two years.

I will still lurke here and other places.

But, to me they have jumped the shark.

They have left plausibility and gone Hollywood sci-fi.
Some of my reasons:
The helicopter with ace pilot Frank- glide ratio for autorotating is 2:1 to 4:1- with a flare just before impact, he should have almost no forward motion-poor research.

Keamy's dead man device could not have worked from underground.

The frozen underground donkey wheel deal. Who built it? How? How does it contain this ultimate force?

What is the smoke monster? Is it science, myth, religion?

Freezing the battery = same as disconnecting = boom.

Minor detail - zodiac with unlimited range.

Sayid not questioning or checking Keamy'
s demise, with obvious body armour.

Too many more to list.

I hope the writers can rekindle my past obsession with the show.

I shall watch and enjoy, and try not to analyze. Wish me luck!

Passing comment. When the guys went into the hull of the ship to the c4 room, they could have gone forward or aft - no issue for me with where the explosion occured.

Mac: my first veiwing was at comment 8. No formating issues. I had just switched to firefox beta3. Also SUPERCOOL, when I refresh, it goes to exactly where I left off!!

#164. Posted by: mtncbn at May 31, 2008 8:59 PM

We now know that Ben winds up in the desert right after he turns the wheel. The date is October 24th, 2005. I figure the date on the freighter calendar was close to New Years Eve, 2004. That's 10 months of his life he'll never get back.

My guess is that Faraday and the Red-shirts will wind up back on the Island. I'm guessing that a perimeter of water surrounding the Island moved along with it - and that Faraday was still close enough to the Island to go with it.
There's probably even some device implanted in the Dharma Shark that delivers a shock whenever it tries to swim too far from the Island - this keeps the show from ever jumping the shark.

I baked up fish biscuits for the finale. My wife thought that was a little "Third Season" - but Season Four offered us little more than Lima Beans and 15 year old Saltines. For season five I'll be serving up a batch of Frozen Donkey Wheels. If I could only turn a wheel and be instantly transported ahead to the Season Five opener. It's going to be a long wait.

#165. Posted by: vacc at May 31, 2008 9:09 PM

great episode! great review!

after watching the episode, i am more convinced now than ever that the island is not really and island, but something created by extra terrestrials and faked as an island. that probably also explain the four toed statue!

I also have a Selfish Island theory (in the lines of Selfish Gene theory). Everything is around the survival of the island, people are mere pawns. The island makes then do things in its interest! thats the big picture!

#166. Posted by: aj at May 31, 2008 9:20 PM

When helicopters lose power they autorotate DOWN, not forward.
Posted by: Carl #109

Like Carl’s earlier post, I, too, know that choppers literally fall out of the sky and don’t “glide in for landings.
Posted by: davidrh #118

Then that makes you both very wrong.
Posted by: DocH #125

Okay gentlemen - the one way to solve your chopper question is to rent one, go way up above the ocean, then shut it down and see what happens to ya!! :) HA, that should stop the arguing...
Posted by: meg #126

Oh, I wasn't arguing. I was stating fact. (Do not make me whip it out meg... my credentials that is.)
Posted by: DocH #130

The helicopter with ace pilot Frank- glide ratio for autorotating is 2:1 to 4:1- with a flare just before impact, he should have almost no forward motion-poor research.
Posted by: mtncbn #164

All I can add is that I got the REAL IMPRESSION that the chopper that was shot out from under me in Nam seemed to fall straight down.
Posted by Gunney - now.

So, DocH - I think you’re up next.

#167. Posted by: Gunney at May 31, 2008 9:28 PM

Here's my latest...
Pretty lame comic, but yeah.

http://tinyurl.com/4y2mgn

Still no creativity.

I can't be creative when I try. =/

#168. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 9:35 PM

AHH I screwed up the quote again... Sorry Mr_Naysayer... again.

I said A instead of THE. Rats.

My bad.

#169. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 9:42 PM

****** Photo Caption Winner Chosen *****
As promised, I have chosen a winning Lost Photo Caption. I will be contributing $20 in the name of this weeks winner to Autism Speaks when I walk in their charity event tomorrow.

Winner - Clementine #4.

Especially loved the game-changing twist at the end of that caption.

And also, MUCH THANKS to everyone who took the time to click through my link in the last Photo Caption writeup.

Also, there's still plenty of time to sponsor me in the Walk Now For Autism.
If you missed my link when I first posted it, here's a shortcut to it: http://tinyurl.com/3p4fsp

#170. Posted by: vacc at May 31, 2008 9:44 PM

Someone above mentioned that the C4 could have been forward or aft. The challenge with that is that it is a freighter. From the superstructure forward is all open cargo hold. No rooms, no walkways or hallways. regardless, the explosion was bogus. You can see at the end of the explosion where the "flash" fuel burns off and the "explosion" is separated from the deck. Also, no pieces of deck are flying up with the explosion. Predictable since I doubt they could rent a freighter with permission to actually blow it up. And NONE of the explosion was within the superstructure.

Note that I am done with the helicopter.

As a side note, watch the location of the crowbar when Ben falls into the frozen room. I posted it on another site but this one seems less concerned with obvious production errors.

#171. Posted by: Carl at May 31, 2008 9:48 PM

Scooby_dude.....I thought Walt said Hey Aaron too. I played it back 3 times. Did anyone see what the close caption said???

#172. Posted by: So_Lost at May 31, 2008 10:23 PM

→ 164. Posted by: mtncbn re: jumping the shark

Don't get me wrong, I love this show and will watch it faithfully to the end, but the Fonz is revving his engine. One more to add: Jack's stitches held up pretty well after that heli impact. I did like the parallel from season 1 ending, though.

#173. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 31, 2008 10:27 PM

The first time I watched part 2 and 3, the first thing that came to my mind when we saw Jack on the raft and Membata was, "how did he change his shirt?!?"

He changed his shirt!!! It was like a dark blue shirt before, and then it was a botton-down off-white thing.

I need to see that again... I was trying to notice that when I re-watched it but then my computer kept spazzing so I was just trying to catch the dialogue.

I need to watch it on my TV again.

#174. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 10:37 PM

Oh wait... I just realized there was a week in between. He probably changed it on Penny's boat because his other shirt was all bloody.

My bad.

#175. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2008 10:38 PM

Popular Mechanics has several good LOST Finale related articles. Two written by physicists and one written by Adam of MythBusters; Adam discusses the explosion of the freighter.

I didn't copy the url but go to Popular Mechanics, go to science, enter Lost in the search. As of this morning the articles I'm referencing were the first 3 listed.

#176. Posted by: undaunted at May 31, 2008 10:40 PM

More questions:

1. If Sayid is working for Ben and Ben says he'll help Jack get them back to the island, why does Sayid tell Hurley they're NOT going back to the island?

2. I know the show loves parallels, so I wonder if the ice in the Dharma Dungeon was artificial and served a similar purpose as Michael's liquid nitrogen trying to freeze the bomb.

3. Did anyone notice that before Sayid shot the guy in the car outside the mental hospital, he said the time was "Eight fif--." Nice touch by the writers.

4. Hurley said the freighter was behind the helicopter. That seemed odd.

#177. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 31, 2008 10:41 PM

→ 109. Posted by: Carl
→ 132 Posted by: ealgumby
re: Ben's jump from the Orchid to the Tunisian desert.

The term "wormhole" comes from an analogy that a worm traveling around an apple can take a shortcut to the opposite side by burrowing through its center. If one end of the wormhole is in Tunisia, digging a hole through the Earth puts the other end in the middle of the South Pacific, at approx 33x52x44S, 170x28x27W. That seems to be about 3,000 miles east of Sydney, or 6 hours on a plane averaging 500mph flying due east. It also is in the neighborhood of 3,000 miles away from Membata, I think. If I'm right with this math -- and apologies if someone has already posted this idea -- then it makes sense that Ben lands in Tunisia because that is the other end of the wormhole.

#178. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 31, 2008 10:58 PM

re: Scooby-Dude #162
I thought Walt was correcting Hurley, who had just called him Walt. Obviously Walt has to go by an alias and I assumed that meant he's been going by "Walt". I could be wrong, didn't go back and relisten.

re: LostMamacita #163
Good point, but Jack probably assumes that, if they expose the wreckage in the Sunda Trench as fake, then they will be hunted down and maybe killed by whoever put it there.

So many other things to comment on but instead I'll just express my agreement with everyone who is able to suspend belief about certain things here and there. After all, Lost is not a true story. I don't like the whole pick-every-little-thing-apart game. It may or may not matter where the explosion originated, just accept it for what it is- the freighter blew up! It's not supposed to be an accurate recreation a la something on the History Channel. Same thing with the chopper. Things like that don't affect my enjoyment of the show a bit.

#179. Posted by: Lost in Baltimore at May 31, 2008 11:08 PM

Aw fudge -- I knew I couldn't quit cold turkey.

A couple of things that burble to the top of quanderies:

What was with the different picture frames when Miles went upstairs at the lady with the dead kid, and when he came down? That was not a production error!

Damn, forgot the others on my mind.

I've got 5 to 10 hours invested per episode for 4 years. Please don't let me down.

#180. Posted by: mtncbn at May 31, 2008 11:43 PM

@Mizzed/41 & 157
"Christian (or something using his image) is not speaking for Jacob and is part of the opposing force. It is Christian who led Claire astray, seperating her from her baby (leading to Aaaron being one of the 6), and Christian, claiming to be speaking for Jacob, who told Locke to move the island (making it impossible for the 6 to return).

This is consistent with the one time Locke saw Jacob, when he heard 'help me' as though Jacob was a prisoner or under some sort of spell or attack.

It is Christian's appearances to Jack post-rescue that start his descent into drug addiction and helplessness."

You know, this is not a bad idea, but still not buying into it just yet ... there is no real evidence (yet), and what there "is" can just as easily be interpretted differently ...

For example, Jacob's "Help Me" has gotten a lot of attention from various people trying to figure out what trouble Jacob is in that he needs help. I would suggest it means no such thing ... people use the phrase "help me" to mean one of two different things: (1) I am in peril and require your assistance to save/rescue me, or (2) I require your assistance with a task I am unable to complete by myself, but involves no peril to myself. In the second case, the "help" may be required to rescue someone else from peril: e.g., "help me break down this door, so I can run inside and save the child from the fire." In this case, the person asking for help is not in danger, but needs to help to rescue the child, who is in danger.

We have no compelling evidence either way to suggest that Jabob is in peril, or simply requires help with something he cannot do himself, perhaps to save someone (or something, e.g., the island) from danger. I think the rest of the "evidence" pointing out to an evil entity occupying Christian's body to fight Jacob, could likewise just as well support the theory that Jacob is fine, but trying to protect the island.

Why use Christian, et al as apparitions in the first place? Possibly because Jacob cannot, or should not, leave the cabin, so he uses the apparitions as a mean to communicate indirectly. The apparitions don't have to be dead people (Walt is not dead, for example), but he was off-island ... the apparations are always someone who will not be confused with a living island member, to identify the messenger as Jacob. Are the apparitions good, bad, or indifferent? We have no concrete evidence to answer that.

But what about Christian telling Locke to move the island, instead of Jacob, you may ask? For one thing, it's not the first time we've seen Christian in the cabin ... when Hurley found the cabin, he saw Christian sitting inside, and then ostensibly Jacob's eye in the window. Was Christian malevolent at that point? We have no proof either way. Second, perhaps Jacob knows bad things will soon befall Locke, and wishes to distance himself from direct contact for that reason. There's no proof for that either, I know, but again, any position you take is pure speculation at this point.

I know it's a rather trite position to say "Jacob knows everything has to happen for a reason," but that could justify moving the island, knowing the O6 would leave, but also knowing they will have to come back to set things right. Jacob could have let Locke hear his "help me" plea, more to delude him into his necessary role as believing he is the chosen one, when Jacob knows fully well that is not the case. Perhaps Ben was brought Juliet to the island in a vain effort to prevent the 815 crash (which Jacob may have told him about), by having the next chosen one born from islanders, rather than having to be brought in (and ironically, Aaron is a little of both).

I have no proof whatsoever for any of these conjectures, but just trying to show that there are alternate explanations that seem just as possible as the "Christian is evil and Ben is his flunky" argument.

I'm not saying that ISN'T possible either, and is attractive in many ways as a theory, just that I have serious doubts. I thought a very long time ago about how everyone could be wrong by assuming Jacob's "help me" comment meant he was in distress, and that it would be clever for the writers to trick the audience that way. If I'm right about that, I think it takes some air out of the evil Christian/Ben idea.

#181. Posted by: ealgumby at June 1, 2008 12:22 AM

→ 39. Vikki: "I want to know what happened on that boat for a week..."

Me too! On the Searcher: Penny, Desmond, Lapidus, Jack, Sayid, Sun, Kate, Hurley. Who knew what to put into the pool of information to come up w/a cover story? And as Jack told Desmond, "Don't let him/them find you." Who is/are "him/them"? Would Desmond be worried about Charles finding him? Remnants of the DHARMA Initiative? Ben? Abbadon? Or is Jack using "you" in the plural form & means that it's Desmond & Penny who need to hide?

Random question: What exactly are the connections between Desmond, Penny, Libby, Hurley, Naomi, Charles, & Abbadon? Desmond, who needs a sailboat, just happens to meet Libby, who has one. Libby just happens to be in the same mental institution as Hurley. Penny is searching for Desmond using a polar listening station staffed by two Portuguese scientists (for lack of a better word). Naomi looks Brazilian, speaks Portuguese, & says she's been hired by Penny to find Desmond, thus explaining the copy of the snapshot of Des & Penny. But Penny had never heard of Naomi, & it was Abbadon who was revealed as Naomi's superior. So how did Naomi get the snapshot? And who is Abbadon working for—Charles, someone else, or as the head of another entity?

→ 43. iheartsayid: Bentham & utilitarianism:

I found it interesting that a shorthand way to refer to the underlying premise of utilitarianism is that "The end justifies the means." Locke has demonstrated that philosophy repeatedly, by making executive decisions that contradict wishes/desires of the other Lostaways, all in the service of his idea that the Lostaways are supposed to be on the island & stay on the island.

→ 63. ealgumby: “Lapidus is still cuffed to the chopper, and makes quite a bit of noise trying to free himself” … for someone who asked for the tools, he seemed pretty damned clueless about how to free himself, especially under the circumstances!

I thought that that was part of the ambush set up by Kate, Sayid, Richard Guyliner, et al.—it would make sense for Frank to be fumbling around & making a racket to conceal any sounds of the Others in the bushes.

and

→ 63. ealgumby: Locke is simply NOT a leader!

Oh boy, so true...but he sure desperately wants to be one.

I'm still thinking that the reason why Locke gets banished from the island is because Richard knows that Locke didn't kill Cooper & chooses the perfect moment to out Locke as a false leader.

→ 73. ealgumby: Ben ... the great deceiver ...

and

→ 97. Clementine: Finally, Ben “always has a plan.” And it usually serves his own interests. Therefore, I think Ben has devised a plan for the survivors to return to the island only because it is somehow necessary to facilitate his own return.

Ben makes Machiavelli look like a straight shooter.

→ 91. lovelost: Why would Ben send John to find the secret door when John wouldn't have a clue what to do once he got inside?

It reminds me of how parents will give a small child a useless but time-consuming task to keep said child occupied while the parent attends to business.

→ 109. Posted by: Carl: Why, if they knew about the power, would Dharma have covered the cave with the vault?

The vault was located next to the source of "exotic matter," yes? It would make sense that the cave would tap into the same source. Did the electromagnetic charge that the Swan regulated also stem from this source?

Also, regarding the FDW & the lights that appeared when Ben started turning the wheel: I can't remember for sure, but weren't they similar to the light that came out of the opening when Desmond turned the fail-safe key in the Swan?

And finally, I figured out how the island moved: The Frozen Donkey Wheel activated a Romulan cloaking device. ; >

#182. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 1, 2008 12:32 AM

157. Posted by: Mizzed - it's 2 am and you just made me laugh so hard i woke the cat up!

182. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought - funny you should say that. the more i think about the wheel the more the island reminds me of the space station in the first episode of ST-TNG. it was actually a living organism cleverly disguised as a space station. no wonder ben looked like data at the end!

#183. Posted by: surefoot at June 1, 2008 2:16 AM

ilovebenjaminlinusxx -

You are such a good sport! Awesome graphics... they aren't lame at all! I'm glad that my "idol"ness lives on and that you liked my previous post...

So - keep up the shirt ideas! I swear we'll decide on a final choice - just don't screw up the new quote! If you keep cranking out ideas, we'll land on the best and all be sporting new tshirts at the summer BBQ that Mac is going to throw. (haha!)

Jello shots for everyone!

Mr_Naysayer


Where's Meg? I miss her already.

#184. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at June 1, 2008 2:16 AM

VACC – Thanks for taking the rudder. Many times I felt like I was reading a fine season finale synopsis written by MAC. I hope you understand that’s a good thing.

Haven’t read all the posts yet, always so many. And some are practically a college thesis.

Anyways. I need to state that I am very pleased with this episode. Mainly because the acting was brilliant. Personally I thought the comedy was classic Lost ~ you know, like golf on a grassy hill in Hawaii back in Season 1 Lost.

When Locke was watching the instructional video like a pre-schooler, and the warning comes on about metal objects.… and John helplessly points a mute finger at Ben who is stacking the Mork from Ork cage with metal objects. Priceless! Catching Hurley taking a leak also had me laughing. As did Rose taking over peanut patrol and Miles’ overall wittiness. “Something wrong with your neck?”

So I guess the things I am looking forward to in the final seasons is… what is so important about the dead Oceanic 3 (Charlie, Libby, Boone)? I mean Boone and Shannon were riding together, what makes Boone a valid part of the lie? Or is it just something Jack came up with while drifting aimlessly on a raft over the same exact spot where there used to be an island, where he lived for months… being chased by monsters and others watching a man named Locke blow things up and stuff? Charlie appears in a vision, technically so does Boone. Libby still has some unanswered business that I fear may be swept under the rug like Reauseau. Then there’s Christian Sheppard, I think what ever ‘force’ is guiding events, or what not, is inhabiting the bodies. They never found Christian Sheppard’s body. And the island has ways of healing tissue.

Other than that, where the island goes to is the biggest part to me. I know they will tie it up nicely at the end of Season 6 but I am so anxious to see where/when the island is. To the Future, Past, Zimbabwe, El Segundo (would make sense for Locke to be dead in LA).

Sorry, I hate long posts and I made one. Favorite VACC~ism : “he [JACK] tells Desmond "See ya in another life brutha". Desmond replies "Live togehter.. Die alone".

Lastly… because it’s gonna be a long 6 months. Did anybody notice that on the Searcher, Penelope was wearing Cindy’s Scarf? Please don’t crucify me, I’ve been with this blog from the start. It just had to be said.

#185. Posted by: callaway76 at June 1, 2008 6:12 AM

Hoooh. You all are amazing! There’s gotta be as much wit and perspicuity in this blog as in any LOST writers’ cabal.

Special kudos to 118/davidrh, 119/welh, and Mizzed in general, for eloquence and for making me both double over in laughter and sit up straight in reflection.

Maybe there should be a new category for Blog favorite lines. (This episode’s candidates: “Is that a tumor or are you just happy to see me?” “Charlotte has red hair” and "Ben stacking the Mork from Ork cage"...)

Sporadic stuff:

I’m thrilled to see there are enough of us Keamy-admirers to form a 12-step withdrawal group. (Again: lurking producers please take note!)

Re. 152/meg’s disgruntlement at Keamy’s rough Kate-treatment: No indeed, Keamy’s not a “kind” bad boy type. But – and here’s the point - neither is he a mind-messing manipulator (Ben), nor is he some sort of gratuitous sadist! He just does what he’s gotta do to get the job done. Does that make him evil, or simply very, very single-minded in his goal? And if the latter, how different is he, really – without knowing his back-story – from other of our Lost heros? Which leads to:

@182/Alais_Longthought: I’m totally doubting your equation of Locke’s actions with any formal Utilitarian ends-justifying-means philosophy. Look: some sort of ruthless ends/means orientation has, at one time or other, motivated most every Lost character in their most bad-ass personal-impassioned moments. (Possible exceptions: Hurly, Rose and Bernard, Vincent.) But Utilitarianism as a philosophy presumes decision-making from a detached position of power, assessing society’s “ends” in aggregate; not decisions in moments of personal personal peril or faith-testing. Locke's Got Religion. His decisions are the very opposite of Utilitarian calculation. He’d one-up Abraham himself and would roast marshmallows over his son's embers on Mount Moriah if Jacob requested it of him. In an Island second.

That said, /182, I’m totally with you on the Romulan cloaking device! After I saw the instantly placid seascape where once the island sat, my thought was: hadn’t these O-Sixers ever watched Star Trek, or Star Wars, or considered Harry Potter’s (granted, size XXXXXX-large) invisibility cloak? Why were they so sure the island was gone?

@181/ealgumby:
I don’t buy your two “help me” distinctions - unless Lost’s writers are being majorly manipulative. For Jacob’s entreaty to signify your second, more expansive “Help me,” he’d have had two better choices. If an informal guy, he could have added a syllable and asked, “Help me out!” Or, if he was a formal chap, he could have asked, “Aid me” – the verb “aid,” not, typically, connoting the life/death stakes of the dire, two-syllable, “Help me.”

Jacob plaintively entreated "Help Me," and I’ll belief he’s in dire peril.

Finally - ADD ME TO THE TALLY: Posters have convinced me that:

1. JIN IS ALIVE : no physical evidence of his demise; moreover, a Jin-Sun reunion in S6 would fill the emotional void of what we’d presumed would be a Desmond/Penny reunion.

2. Ben’s “I’m sorry I ruined your life,” refers not to the past but to FUTURE manipulations ...And is probably a reference to Locke’s ultimate suicide/demise via Ben manipulation. (Are any of you non-infatuated yet getting why I can manage to see Keamy as a relatively benign figure??)


#186. Posted by: iheartsayid at June 1, 2008 8:30 AM

As promised, I have chosen a winning Lost Photo Caption.
Winner - Clementine #4.

Great choice vacc! I really got a good laugh when Aaron Spelling showed up at the end of the post! Priceless! Just to add my 2 cents worth, I thought the exchange by JaneSweetz and Aaron was very funny also. Worth honorable mention at least.

Just to recap:


We still havent heard anything from the infant.
What was it like being born on the island?
21. Posted by: JaneSweetz

Goo.

Wa.

[gurgle]

[spit up]

Abba.

Don.

22. Posted by: Aaron

Very funny comeback from Gunny on the helicopter thing. (Being shot down NOT funny however, I'm sure. - Bless you.) Carried a M-60 myself during that time.

And callaway76 - very good lick about Penny's and Cindy's scarf. Can't believe no one had jumped on that earlier!

#187. Posted by: davidrh at June 1, 2008 8:35 AM

@172 Posted by: So_Lost

It sounds like "Aaron", but he does say Hurley...just slurring a bit.

#188. Posted by: boodle at June 1, 2008 8:59 AM

This might be a stupid question, but... Does Aaron still get a birth cirtificate?

If he does, would it say that he was born on Membata? And a fake birthday, and his mother, Kate Austen.

He's going to need one if he's going to drive, or do anything.

@ Vikki - 39; Alaïs_Longthought - 182
"I want to know what happened on that boat for a week..."

I'll tell you what happened... Jack changed his shirt! And so did Kate, and Sayid... I think Sun did too... but Hurley didn't.

Maybe they picked Charlie so that Driveshaft will become even more famous (as Charlie hoped it would become when he returned home).

By the way... Congratulations Clementine!!!

@ davidrh - 187
"And callaway76 - very good lick about Penny's and Cindy's scarf. Can't believe no one had jumped on that earlier!"

I think someone did say that... but I can't find it, so I guess not.

Because I was looking for that when I watched the episode again. Maybe I'm going crazy. But I don't know where I would have gotten the idea to look for it if I didn't read it... now I'm confusing myself.

@ Mr_Naysayer
Haha, thanks. I won't screw up the quote again... or at least I'll try. Lol.

I will keep working on it. =]

#189. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 1, 2008 9:32 AM

→ 97. Posted by: Clementine at May 30, 2008 11:59 PM

ok, you replied gto my earlier question by saying:
"@Chad Brown/83: “What was Ben's plan when he surrendered to the soldiers outside the Orchid Station?”

To lead Keamy and pals off to an Other ambush in the jungle."

And so why did Ben instruct Locke to go find the elevator and take it down to the the Orchid Station? Just to give him something to do until Ben could get back? I think the real explanation is that it was just a head fake by the writers to throw us off the scent. In other words, not such a good reason

#190. Posted by: Chad Brown at June 1, 2008 9:52 AM

@alais_long/182...about the boat...Aside from developing their cover up story, I wonder what Penny was able to tell them, if anything, about Widmore, his involvement with Dharma, and his epic battle royale with Ben. Maybe she knows nothing, but maybe, just maybe, she knows everything...we shall see!

@mtncbn/164...though I respect your complaints about the show, I urge you not to give up and to have faith in it. You strike me as a "man(or woman) or science"...maybe the writers want to convert you to a "man(or woman) of faith"...hang in there with us! :)

@iloveben.../can't remember which post...I noticed that Locke's scar was gone too when he was in the coffin, but if that is indeed his body in there, the funeral parlor would probably have covered up the scar with make-up while they were preparing the body...And if it's not really Locke's body, then there might have been no scar at all...

BTW...when are the invites going out to this big Macfest BBQ '08??? I want to clear my schedule now!!!

#191. Posted by: Vikki at June 1, 2008 9:54 AM

Here is an interesting item about moving the island. (The writers seem to be purposely ambiguous as to whether they are obeying some laws of physics or just being magical and mythical.)

This link is to Popular Mechanics and a theory that the writers may be thinking about a Large Hadron Collider.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4260687.html?series=6

an excerpt:

"But the creators did let slip that the rest of this season will revolve around some very real—and very big—physics: the Large Hadron Collider, the much delayed European particle accelerator that could reveal information about the Higgs boson and dark energy. Some physicists believe the LHC will produce mini black holes, which might actually be able to open a one-way portal to another universe—a gateway that can only be kept open by a force of energy as strong as Jupiter ... or an electromagnet inside a desert island.

Michio Kaku, author of Physics of the Impossible, thinks the Lost creators are using cutting-edge science to lay the groundwork for a transversible wormhole to another point in space and time—a trip foreshadowed in an off-season video about the so-called Orchid station, which Lindelhof and Cuse promised would be a key to the next few episodes. "They're amping up the energy to the point where space and time begin to tear, and the fabric begins to rip," Kaku tells PM. "When the fabric of space and time begin to rip, things that we consider impossible become possible again."
---------------------------------------
One thing I like about this blog is that it does not bother so much with whether the stuff in the story could happen from a scientific point of view, although that can be interesting and the excerpt above is an example. But it does focus on the even more interesting issues of whether the emotional/ psychological character-development is plausible. Like the comments above that Locke is not cut out to be a leader even if he thinks he wants to be and even if Jacob or the Island or whomever may have picked him. I agree that John Locke is not up to the job. And for that matter, Jack S isn't either.

#192. Posted by: Chad Brown at June 1, 2008 10:06 AM

@189 Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

I think the reference to Penny having Cindy's scarf was made in the Part 1 posts. (A few posted prior to vacc's review was done.)

#193. Posted by: boodle at June 1, 2008 10:16 AM

I said this last week and I'll say it again... I think the Island might be playing John for his "kidney" in some sense. He's been chosen not because he's a natural leader but because he's a natural sucker. To what end I don't know, but he's the perfect victim for this, the very longest of cons ("conned at birth" and maybe even before that?). I really want Locke to succeed and resolve his life but he's pretty bumbling as heroic quest dudes go. Before he dies, I predict he'll wind up back in a wheelchair or his legs will get chopped off or something else mega-tragic that leaves him worse off than ever. At least the threat of that is certainly spelled out for us in the subtext. He might come out on top with some metaphysical reward, I hope so, but I fear for his very soul at this point (the show has already indicated there is a definite afterlife within its reality... I hope Locke has a pleasant one on the island, hunting boars for eternity, but...)

I predict that in the series finale, Ben will pull the absolute cruelest of long cons on somebody/everybody, which will result in maximum benefit for whoever is left... if that makes any sense. Ben is increasingly looking like Willy Wonka but in the direst of circumstances. this season, Lost feels like Willy Wonka with machine guns instead of candy.

#194. Posted by: catbarf at June 1, 2008 10:47 AM

I think maybe Sayid was lying to Hurley when he said they weren't going back to the island. He can rationalize it by thinking to himself 'Well...not yet anyway.", or 'That's not our destination tonight.' Somewhere safe could mean anywhere, but my guess is that it's to meet with Benji Linus. Which won't make Hugo too happy.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the new island dynamic. Should be interesting to see Juliet interacting with Sawyer a lot instead of Jack. And hopefully Rose and Bernard will get more spotlight now.

I also really hope they expand Claire's role...to make her interaction with ghost Dr. Daddy a very significant part of the show.

#195. Posted by: JoePike at June 1, 2008 12:32 PM

@Chad Brown/192
"One thing I like about this blog is that it does not bother so much with whether the stuff in the story could happen from a scientific point of view,"

Likewise, I've noted that no one here pays much attention to fashion accessories. May I be the first to point out the fetching neck-piece worn by Penny on her boat; bears a marked resemblance to another's ensemble from the show, but can't quite place it! ... :-P

BWA HA! Ah, the key to any good statistical analysis/hypothesis ... sample size my friend, sample size ...

#196. Posted by: ealgumby at June 1, 2008 1:39 PM

@JoePike/158: "But her wig was beautiful as usual. Totally realistic and endearing..."

I must say, Mr. Pike, the wig was looking much better in this episode. Maybe they hired a wigmaster to give it some curls and highlights. Or maybe they're just adding extensions to her real hair now. Good continuity, though, for her change over to Well-Coiffed Ghost Claire.

@Chad Brown/192: "One thing I like about this blog is that it does not bother so much with whether the stuff in the story could happen from a scientific point of view..."

Well, we do that, too...

"But it does focus on the even more interesting issues of whether the emotional/ psychological character-development is plausible."

Yeah! That's my favorite part :)

P.S. Always good to see catbarf! Well, you know what I mean...

#197. Posted by: Clementine at June 1, 2008 1:46 PM

amada/79 commented on thinking "Weekend at Bernie's?!" after the final coffin scene.

I don't care who you, that's funny right there!

But we may have to call it "Season at Johnie's" for Season 5.

#198. Posted by: DW at June 1, 2008 1:50 PM

Long time lurker, first time poster. Have looked through all the comments, but can't see that anyone else has suggested this...
Has moving the island just caused the 2004 tsunami? What looked like a ripple from the air could have been waves a lot bigger, and i think the timeline just about fits.

#199. Posted by: lynsey at June 1, 2008 2:03 PM

[Edit] Post removed per Cecil's request. Cecil's spot-on observations are included in subsequent posts, so read 'em real good.

#200. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 1, 2008 2:57 PM

Mac:

My apologies, some extra stuff got in with thar last post. Can you kill it and I'll repost?

#201. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 1, 2008 3:04 PM

I hope you ignored 200 (or Mac's deleted it)

And here's what it was suppoed to be:
O-------------

@16 davidrh grumbled:

>So who’s the DOOFUS who writes the captions for the “enhanced” episodes? After informing us that one of the previous episodes was named after the “Wizard of Oz”, the “captioneer” then writes . . “The Wizard of Oz is also a story about people trying to get home from a faraway land.” . . Good Grief, Toto-Brain! If you’re smart enough to wade through LOST, I think you probably know the story behind the Wizard of Oz . . .

You’d think that, wouldn’t you? But everyday I run into young people to whom anything that happened before their birth is ancient history, and this like My Lai, or Jack Ruby, or the Cuban missile crises, or even more mundane things like, say, phone booths have to be explained. Sp maybe some people DO need such captions.


>So - weird allegiance being alleged with Widmore and Sun . . . Maybe it’s not Widmore she blames as the OTHER MAN who killed Jin. Some bloggers this morning have ventured that it’s Jack . . . but I wonder if it’s not BEN.

And how does Sun know that Ben’s killing Keamy blew up the boat?

>I enjoyed reading FenwayBen’s blog last night....He was asking about what happened to the folks in the Zodiac, among others.

I presume you mean his post here. If he’s got his own blog somewhere I’m unaware of please inform me.

>As suspected, the website for Octagon Global Recruiting is part of the Dharma Initiative. I didn’t submit my name to see where it goes . . . I was afraid they might pick me for rabbit number 16!

I put three different email addresses. If this is Lost Experience 2, I’m in. And if they’re really recruiting, to quote a favorite song from some time back “Hell, I’ll go!”


>And IF the next two seasons are all about getting EVERYONE back to the island, then does that mean that we will eventually see a Kate/Sawyer and a Juliet/Jack hookup reunion? It would seem to be the logical future-forward. I guess we’ll know in 28 months.

Do you know something I don’t? I’d expect to know in 24 months.

O-------------

@17 meg wondered:

>Why is Walt so old? He looks like he's almost 20!

But they perfectly accounted for three years since we last had a good look at the actor – it’s a flash forward three years. Great planning. And real kids do change that much around those age – my grandson Aaron being a perfect case in point. A boy at 10 now verging on young manhood at thirteen.

>Were the sounds associated with moving the island similar to those the smoke monster made?

To me they sounded more similar to the “Desmond turns the fail-safe key/purple sky” event.

O-------------

@27 ss lostie said:

>Several web sites have audio + video of Kate's phone call...backwards and forwards. It says something like...you have to get back to the island before it is too late. I can't tell who the voice is though. At first I thought Sawyer, but now I don't think so...anyone?

Dunno, but this fits with the backward talking ‘Walt’ vision from season two. T think we’re seeing projections of someone who’s living backwards in time – another weird island time effect. Time reversals have some conceptual foundation in the world ot physics, and the island seems to revolve around some very advanced physics.

O-------------

>I can’t believe Locke is dead, he never gets a break, and why did the island let him die? It wouldn't let Michael kill himself? Does the island want to take over his body like it did Christian?

Maybe Michael’s purpose was fulfilled and the island could let him ‘expire’, having no further use fro him, and maybe the same for John Locke, or maybe, just maybe, Locke isn’t dead (as some have speculated elsewhere) and it’s all a Ben Linus trick to accomplish his plans.

O-------------

@83 Chad Brown said: 10:29 PM

>I still don't understand why the O6 need to lie about their experiences. Admitting the truth is the only way to protect them from Widmore (or the real villain) - and the best way to rescue their friends still on the "Island." Lying only increases the risk that Widmore (or whoever) will kill them before one of them decides to admit the truth. Why protect the real perpetrator? It doesn't make sense - other than to keep a great show interesting.

Ditto – see remarks above.

O-------------

@90 dk exposited:

>i guess my question about this show is ... are we dealing with fantasy here or science fiction? because if the island was really moved in space/time, it seems really weird that turning an ancient wheel was behind it. let's pray to God that the answer to this show doesn't prove out to be aliens..

I’ve been hoping science fiction, all along, given the producers’s/writers’ promises, but getting harder to believe in,

O-------------

@100 MorBid0 pictured:

>now they [Sawyer and Juliet] are having their tequila sunrise (rum sunset) moment on the beach - meg is seething with jealousy.

My only problem with Sawyer swimming ashore to the Losties beach camp cabanas is that every map reference I’ve seen shows the Losties beach camp on the east side of the island, while the helicopter was suppose to be flying a northwesterly course (bearing 325). So logically Sawyer should have come ashore at the Pala ferry dock or the Others yurt village.

O-------------

@102 KMFPL reasoned:

>Surprised nobody has mentioned this... Exactly what frequency was Keamy's heart monitor broadcasting on? It went through miles of rock and ocean, and never lost contact with the ship until Ben killed him? That's a hell of a transmitter...

Very good point.

O-------------

@103 Norcal Mark snarked:

>>@101 opserc
>>Second, I would think given his size and weight HE would need help getting in the raft.

>Exactly. Even with help they couldn't film it. Look kind of odd having 5 of them helping one dude get in the raft. Solultion. Start the scene with Hurley already in the raft.

I’ll have you know fat floats, and the adipose challenged do better in thee water in survival situations in the water than the lean and hungry. Personal experience speaking here.

O-------------

Davidrh so-longed with:
[a long list of character traits near the bottom of which was]
>Jin and Michael are standing in the unemployment line next to
Charlie

But being dead has never been much of an impediment to employment on “Lost”. Witness, Charlie, Ethan Rom, Christian, Boone etc.

O-------------

@144 FenwayBen revisited an issue:

>>> We don't see the raftaways again until after dark. Jack sees Aaron snoozing peacefully in Kate's lap and asks how he's doing.
>And we all still wonder “What has this nursing baby been eating the last few days?”

>>I told you all in a previous thread, Claire pumps and dumps. ;)

And, what? Leaves bottles with EVERYBODY? Just in case?

O-------------

#202. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 1, 2008 3:24 PM

So about the folks on the Zodiac. I was just thinking...

Imagine you being one of those extras with Faraday.

Now... You're going towards the freighter, hoping that you're finally rescued and safe. Then all of a sudden, you see it explode. At that point, you're thankful that you're not on it, but then you feel bad for everyone else. A moment later, you decide to go back to the island because that's the only other place you can go. So you turn around the Zodiac, and notice, that there is no island.

That's when you realize you're pretty much dead.

I wonder what happened to them too... but when you think about it... their situation is kind of funny.

Going towards freighter, see freighter blow up, decide to turn back, then BAM no island to go back to. HAHA. Don't tell me that's not hillarious.

So much for Danny's plan.

@ Cecil Rose - 200
Yeah, that post totally just confused the hell out of me.

#203. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 1, 2008 3:45 PM

O-------------

@ 159 vacc played for sympathy with:

>But while doing this, [counting]I MISSED the last five seconds. Can someone tell me who was in the coffin?

And you did the whole review from memory with no recording.....right.

O-------------

#204. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 1, 2008 3:57 PM

thanks vacc for the review. An awful lot of info to sort out!!!

60 Joe Pike
Unless Faraday's little boat came along with the island 'red shirts' and rescued him. Of course, at that point they'd still have nowhere to go.

Good point and room for hope. I Did not think of this! Maybe the area around the island - thus including the Hydra island went with the island and if Jin COULD swim to the raft and the raft WAS close enough, then maybe they all survived.


63. Posted by: ealgumby
the man has not a leadership bone in his body … he is NOT Obi-Locke, nor Han-Locke, nor Luke-Locke … he’s C3PO-Locke! I suggest this will lead to the “terrible” things that transpire on the island in the next two seasons...

Locke has always been denying his true fate. Even at five he makes the wrong choice and chooses the knife instead of the book. Maybe he could have been a leader with training from the island if he had gone to island Hogwarts but he has made such bad decisions in his pre island life - obsessing about his father- that he doesn't know how to lead. All he knows is "don't tell me what I can't do." Emotional. He plays at being the Tracker not the leader. And he has no confidence in himself in leading. He is the one who has made good command decisions spoiled by his emotions. Of Course Jack is the opposite, never doubting himself and pushing forward. Remember all the scenes with Jack and John bristling at each other? And thinking of this, both of them have the fault of emotion. John because he doesn't want to be told what to do and Jack because he is sure he is right. no confidence vs too much.

72. Posted by: Mizzed
but I think that D&C are using Joseph Campbell's mono myth cycle of hero development,
If anybody has changed on this show it is Sawyer! Could he be the new leader? I assume that Locke has gone down the bunny hole and through the looking glass to leave the island. Who is left that fits the job description?

#205. Posted by: berkyo at June 1, 2008 4:07 PM

Also, comment on a previous post regarding Claire's seemingly lack of an accent... After a re-watch...I thought the same thing... Hmmm...what could that mean...?
→ 147. Posted by: boodle

It means Claire is not dead and the smoke monster pretending to be her is a lousy linguist.

#206. Posted by: berkyo at June 1, 2008 4:10 PM

→ 154. Posted by: jaybee
Did Ben kill Keamy because he knew it would kill all of the survivors who'd made it off the island?" Was this the act of a grieving man, or a man who'd do anything to protect the island?

This is a good point. I re watched the episodes and during that whole scene there seems to have a double meaning to a lot of what Ben's. Need to watch again.

#207. Posted by: berkyo at June 1, 2008 4:14 PM

"110 i think Sun is referring to Locke and he informed her about Ben being off the island as well as Jin being alive thus making her want to get back to the islandand needs Widmore's help
#145 great idea that Ben was talking about the future pertaining to Locke's life being miserable
#141excellent point about Walt and his gramma knowing about the lie of the Oceanic 6
I think that Ben had a lot planned as usual, he wanted Locke to see him moving the island and getting off so that Locke could do the same in the future.He didn't really need him to be there for any other purpose. Unfortunately for Locke he has been conned again.
I also think Ben has a mich bigger plan,he knew the freighter was going to blow and didn't need keamy to detonate it. Ben is in touch wiith Christian either telepathically or something and knew the timing would be coincidental.
One last shout out to #199 if that was the writers intention they are true genius'

#208. Posted by: islander at June 1, 2008 4:19 PM

→ 156. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx a

Ben says, "Sorry I made your life so miserable". He said LIFE. He said HE ruined John's life. Maybe I'm over-thinking it.

Nope, You are onto something. He's been screwing with John all along and has it all planned out to the end.
He's a dastardly villain! How can you love him?.....ok, he's kinda cute. I was in love with Captain Hook for a looong time.

#209. Posted by: berkyo at June 1, 2008 4:20 PM

I don't like to think that there are production mistakes with Lost, because the details are so important to the mystery of the island, the story that I would think producers would be extra careful not to slip. After the chopper crashes and Hurley landed magically into the raft...Kate swims up to Hurley first and hands Aaron to him. At first look when Hurley is leaning over the raft to get Aaron out of the water, he is wearing a life jacket. Immediately, when camera shows him straightening up with Aaron in his arms, life jacket is gone. Production mistakes are a given for TV and film, but I'd like to think that ALL that we see with Lost has meaning. I hope that this was just an unique oversight...

#210. Posted by: boodle at June 1, 2008 4:22 PM

@209 Posted by: berkyo re: Ben ruining Locke's life...

There had been posts that Ben meant Locke's future life. When I saw that part, my first thought was that Ben meant all of Locke's life. What if Locke's enitre life was bringing him to the island? (As we saw with his flashbacks that there has been island involvement throughout his life...) What if all parts of his life were calculated...from the son of an unwed teenage mom...leading to foster care...growing up without any sense of belonging...? I understood Ben to be apologizing for his entire life. Anyone...?

#211. Posted by: boodle at June 1, 2008 4:34 PM

157. Posted by: Mizzed

So by doing our trademarked 2+2=5 speculative island math,

LOL!!!

→ 177. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
why does Sayid tell Hurley they're NOT going back to the island?

Maybe to get Crazy Hurley to go with him?

→ 178. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
then it makes sense that Ben lands in Tunisia because that is the other end of the wormhole.

Thanks, I was trying to figure that out in Google Earth but not doing very well. I believe this is the answer.

So, If other people have used this exit, and the Dharma have closed it up, does that mean that Widmore, if he is pre Ben, would have left the island before Dahrma? And I assumed that Ben used this time short cut to gather info and be so omniscient (That's a hard word to spell!) then there must be another door to it.

Someone questioned the depth of the station. Maybe it is the throat of the Volcano? It has a geologic name but I forget.

#212. Posted by: berkyo at June 1, 2008 4:38 PM

Of course there are production errors in Lost. There are production errors in everything filmed. Above I mentioned the crowbar error in the frozen vault. If you have ever seen filming it is SO easy to see how it happens. Of course, all of the intelligent people on the sitte know these scenes are not filmed straight through. So when everyone resumes their place for the next shot, things have changed. The cast might have had lunch. Hair has been dried so the women can look stylish. Any number of things.

Of course, the challenge on Lost is to know what are production errors and what has some greater meaning.

I personally am more interested in the scientific and physical realility of the show than the interpersonal relationships. If I wanted that I would watch the Maury show. So the physical reality, and errors therein, really jump out. This is really no different than the constant wondering of why, clear back in season 1, nobody asked anyone else questions.

#213. Posted by: Carl at June 1, 2008 4:49 PM

→ 186. iheartsayid: @182/Alais_Longthought: I’m totally doubting your equation of Locke’s actions with any formal Utilitarian ends-justifying-means philosophy... Utilitarianism as a philosophy presumes decision-making from a detached position of power, assessing society’s “ends” in aggregate; not decisions in moments of personal personal peril or faith-testing.

Hmm. Well, I'm not an expert on philosophy in general or utilitarianism in particular (although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express in April), but I haven't found anything in several sources that says that "Utilitarianism as a philosophy presumes decision-making from a detached position of power" or "not decisions in moments of personal personal peril or faith-testing."

But Locke has been a leader—a person w/power (although his decisions have been pretty poor)—& his decisions have been based on what he thinks is the best outcome for everyone, which was Bentham's original expression of utilitarianism—the greatest good for the greatest number.

I agree that Locke makes his decisions based on his beliefs & his faith in the island, but I think that Locke would say in light of that, the decisions he's made are rational & logical. The fact that so many of his decisions are emotion-driven & based on his underlying feelings of insecurity & unworthiness that keep bubbling up from his subconscious is something that he doesn't recognize at all, & makes Ben's statement about good command decisions being compromised by emotions extremely ironic.

In any case, the writers appear to be drawing our attention to utilitarianism by using Jeremy Bentham as Locke's alias, unless what they want us to see isn't Bentham's philosophy but Bentham's still-preserved body w/a wax head...which is a pretty accurate description of how Locke looked in the casket.

#214. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 1, 2008 5:01 PM

I understood Ben to be apologizing for his entire life. Anyone...?
→ 211. Posted by: boodle at June 1, 2008 4:34 PM

yes, I think so too. i think he meant the past and the future.

#215. Posted by: berkyo at June 1, 2008 5:05 PM

@boodle/210
"After the chopper crashes and Hurley landed magically into the raft...Kate swims up to Hurley first and hands Aaron to him. At first look when Hurley is leaning over the raft to get Aaron out of the water, he is wearing a life jacket. Immediately, when camera shows him straightening up with Aaron in his arms, life jacket is gone. Production mistakes are a given for TV and film, but I'd like to think that ALL that we see with Lost has meaning. I hope that this was just an unique oversight..."

@Carl/213
"Of course, the challenge on Lost is to know what are production errors and what has some greater meaning."

Went back and rewatched just the end to pick up on the ice cave crowbar and life-jacket errors ... both pretty obvious (crowbar magically moves from five feet to Ben's side to between his legs as he sits up, and bright orange life-jacket instantly disappears as he bends over to grab Aaron).

Picked up on another without even really trying ... remember Ben's Tunisia parka with the wrong bagua on it? When Ben put on his coat before entering the cave, I checked, and the bagua had been corrected. However, very shortly later (most obvious just after he breaks the ice sheet covering the hole, and leans over it to look down), and thereafter in his parka scenes, he had the "old" Tunisia-scene bagua, with the incorrect trigram sequence on it. Apparently, the production staff either refilmed or digitally corrected the scene when Ben puts on the coat, based upon viewers identifying the parka logo error; however, it must've been too much trouble to redo the cave sequence, because that was not fixed with the correct parka logo.

So we have three clear continuity errors within the last twenty minutes or so of the season finale ... pretty damned sloppy, IMO.

Like boodle said, I have always wanted to believe every detail means something, partly because the Lost production staff has seemed to pride themselves on these little details and easter eggs, and how important (or at least additional side info) has often been shown first in less-than-obvious detail (background or otherwise). For that reason, I have jumped on things like the cell phone and car models used in Jin's flashback scene actually being consistent with a flash-forward (apparently wrong on my part ... just bad prop management), the Doc's inconsistent facial injuries indicated possible duplication ala bunny #15 (apparently wrong on my part ... just bad makeup continuity), and Little Locke's knife blade changing direction on the table before him having some significance (apparently wrong on my part ... just a classic continuity error). In this thread, I commented earlier that Jacob's "help me" comment might mean something other than what most people think, cause the production staff is clever like that ... hmm, well, maybe not so much really.

Come to think of it, in every case I have tried to make something significant out of an apparent production error, it has ended up being ... just a production error, with no intended hidden meaning. I gotta stop giving these writers and production crew more credit than they deserve ... the writers are not Joyce or Faulkner et al, nor are they Hawking or Jung et al, and the production staff has been making prop/continuity errors throughout the series.

Frankly, I find this all a bit disappointing ... how am I supposed to know if the writer is being clever in an obscure literary fashion, or just making no sense, because the epi is a hack? How am I supposed to know if a curious detail is a potentially important easter egg, or just sloppy production? It's annoying to me in the sense that they still DO place the intentional "hints" out there for us to find, but the details are hard to identify when the surrounding material is equally (and unintentionally) confusing due to bad writing and production mistakes.

I think I've made up my mind that nothing on this show is ever really going to make sense, so I'm no longer going to waste my time digging through the minutiae. I'm still enjoying the show though, and still hope there are consistent broader themes that can be identified without being "tricked" by the inconsistent and petty little games the staff play with their audience ... I no longer find the Mickey Mouse crap entertaining.

#216. Posted by: ealgumby at June 1, 2008 5:36 PM

When Ben said, "Sorry for making your life miserable", or something to that effect, I just took it as Ben being immature. He was acting like a child - giving up his thrown to someone else and whining about it.

#217. Posted by: meg at June 1, 2008 5:41 PM

About the production errors, I feel I have a valid explanation. So many members of the Lost cast have gotten DUIs. It has made news, because these people are famous. There is obviously an awful lot of partying going on in Hawaii. Could it be that they don't fire the alcoholic production people?? They only "kill off" the actors??? Anyone? Try managing all those details with a hangover!

#218. Posted by: meg at June 1, 2008 5:47 PM

@@@@@@@@@

I am going to rewatch every episode from the beginning - I did this before during the last long break - just watch an episode or two every Thursday at 9pm and you'll get your LOST fix.


@@@@@@@@@

#219. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at June 1, 2008 6:25 PM

→ 178. Scooby-Dude wrote:

"it makes sense that Ben lands in Tunisia because that is the other end of the wormhole."

That's an interesting observation, especially if there is a possibility that this worm hole can be traversed both ways. Although Ben did not know "when" he would arrive, he clearly knew "where" he would end up, as he had already made hotel arrangements under the alias Dean Moriarty.

This suggests that Tunisia is a known, permanent destination at the other end of the wormhole (we also saw Charlotte excavate the Dharma polar bear here, so someone knows this off-island as well- Widmore?).

Tunisia is an interesting choice- because of its location on the Mediterranean and in the middle of North Africa, it was a highly strategic point in ancient times and the site of the Carthaginian civilization. At one time or another, it was invaded by the Phoenicians, Canaanites, Greeks and Romans, and was within traveling distance of the Egyptians.

Is this a clue to the hieroglyphics, ruins, 4-toed statue, etc- that some ancient people accidentally came to the island via the wormhole from the other side?

#220. Posted by: Mizzed at June 1, 2008 7:11 PM

@ berkyo - 209
"Nope, You are onto something. He's been screwing with John all along and has it all planned out to the end.
He's a dastardly villain! How can you love him?.....ok, he's kinda cute. I was in love with Captain Hook for a looong time."

Haha, don't tell me that "manipulative bad boy" trait isn't attractive. He's got the whole package. -- The looks (haha), the personality, the smarts (more like, GENIUS), and he's got presence.

@ Mr_Naysayer - 219
"I am going to rewatch every episode from the beginning - I did this before during the last long break - just watch an episode or two every Thursday at 9pm and you'll get your LOST fix."

I always end up doing that... but instead of waiting till Thursday to watch them, I end up watching the whole season every week. I can't even wait a week to watch something I've already seen a gazillion times before. I don't know if that says something about the show, or something about me... probably both.

#221. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 1, 2008 7:32 PM

@ ealgumby/#216

Don't sell yourself short. To my knowledge you've always gotten all the details exactly right. You have the ability and tenacity to research and argue an excellant case! Maybe your just forgetting the times you got it right.

Anyway, I hope you continue sharing your views. I, for one, value your opinion.

#222. Posted by: DW at June 1, 2008 7:35 PM

212. Posted by: berkyo - i think you are right about sayid. even with his crazy legs it would be pretty hard for him to muscle hurley out of there, particularly since they have to make a very quiet exit. appeasing him makes a lot more sense.

i have a theory about the zodiac. we know that the course you are on has an effect on how long it takes to get from the freighter (or exfreighter if you prefer). since the zodiac is not directly beneath the chopper when the island disappeared, therefore not on the same course, time might be different and there may well be enough time for daniel et al to return to the island before it moves. now could somebody who understands all the time/space shifting stuff tell me if this is a possible fate for the zodiac?

#223. Posted by: surefoot at June 1, 2008 7:48 PM

Scooby-Dude wrote:

"it makes sense that Ben lands in Tunisia because that is the other end of the wormhole."

Posted by: Mizzed -
This suggests that Tunisia is a known, permanent destination at the other end of the wormhole (we also saw Charlotte excavate the Dharma polar bear here, so someone knows this off-island as well). //Is this a clue to the hieroglyphics, ruins, 4-toed statue, etc- that some ancient people accidentally came to the island via the wormhole from the other side?

This DOES seem like a very definite, albeit speculative, and then again plausible plot likelihood . . . (What the hell kind of sentence did I just write!?!?...)

Anyway, seems like a good thread to pursue.


*****

BTW, Cecil. Thanks for post 200. It was quite the lesson in the distilation of random thought and your process of outline structure. (Also a lesson in NOT trusting your copy and paste cycle and always double checking the “paste” . . . )

#224. Posted by: davidrh at June 1, 2008 8:21 PM

That should be "distillation".


Lesson #2: Always employ the spell checker when prompted!

#225. Posted by: davidrh at June 1, 2008 8:23 PM

A couple of other thoughts on the "Egyptians to the Island wormhole via Tunisia" thing:

* doesn't this stick a fork in the alien technology theories? Wasn't the space portal/hieroglyphics/ancient Egyptians thing already covered by Stargate? Hard to believe TPTB would create this huge cat and mouse maze only to use a version of something that's already been done.

* So Ben was formally Henry Gale- the man behind the curtain representing himself to be a great wizard but ultimately revealed to be a fraud. Now he's Dean Moriarty (aka Neal Cassady), nomads without a real home, described in "On the Road" as "the holy con-man with the shining mind", but ending up as broken shells of their former selves. Then again, maybe Ben will just get another name...

*Since Ben had a comfy, upgraded suite with concierge service ready for him in Tunisia, as well as a new passport and plenty of foreign currency, it seems hard to believe that turning the wheel was a last minute act of desperation. Seems like the whole freighter invasion/moving the island was more a well-thought out plan than anything else- know what I mean?- or as Miles, would say, "What do I mean?"

#226. Posted by: Mizzed at June 1, 2008 8:41 PM

@DW/222

Thanks, and I'm not leaving, just not trying to "understand" the details of the science, etc., anymore, because there's nothing legit to make sense of. Whatever mechanism they had built up re the importance of the course to/from the island was blown out of the water in the last ep, with people coming and going as they please (and COME ON NOW, they all weren't "exactly" on course under those conditions), with NO time offsets apparent. However, all season long, we've had people encountering time offsets coming/going on almost every trip, with the slightest in course error causing problems.

Obviously, the "science" behind this was not conducive to plot developments in the finale though, so the writers just conveniently threw out the window an entire season's worth of "carefully" compiled "truth." This is what I mean by the Mickey Mouse BS (along with the continuity/prop errors) ... sloppy, sloppy, sloppy!

I really don't care if "the writers' strike is responsible" either ... if the show wasn't ready for broadcast with proper quality, then they should've announced a month delay, and done it right. I know, money, money, money. That's my point though ... a quality product is apparently no longer the main concern, but gettin' those epis out the door, ready or not, is.

Why even try to present a so-called "reasonable" set of scientific principles behind what's happening, only to casually discard those principles at the drop of a hat, plot or schedule-wise? The fact they do this with the "tangible" things leads me to believe the intangibles are just as much at risk ... who cares if so-and-so isn't doing something character-consistent? ... we need him to do THIS.

I get the feeling this finale in particular, was reworked so much that key points and character developments have either been lost or grossly manipulated in order to get the epi out the door. Makes me think twice about ANYTHING presented in the finale, with regard to the "master story." Does the Ben/Locke dialogue hold any significance to Locke's future success/failure as leader, and/or Ben's potential sabotage of Locke, etc.? Or is it just the product of a bunch of writers frantically trying to make deadline, and still get the plot ends to meet?

Even in terms of the pre-strike stuff though, I have my doubts. No offense intended to the "Tunisia-and-the-island-are-antipodal-points" people, but if that's the real theory, then D&C can remove "plausible" from any of their descriptions of the show's science. It just makes NO sense ... sorry. The Earth's magnetic field is far, FAR too pathetically weak to have any influence on an energy large enough to move the island. Also, wormholes have nothing to do with the Earth, or its physical size/surface, aside from the fact that it's a really bad and misleading analogy for how wormholes theoretically could work to equate it to an apple with a tunnel through it (wormholes are NOT tunnels, they are POINTS) ... and I know no one here made up the terminology, but to equate that unfortunate example to a womhole popping Ben out in Tunisia because he came from the opposite side of the Earth (which BTW, would be SE of the Kermadec Islands), is NOT "scientifically plausible."

Which is why it will probably end up being true on the show. Why not? They've already thrown plausible consistency out the window, so why not couch it all in catchy terms people seem to like, valid and sensible or not? As long as the writers throw a few historical names and literary refs out now and then for people to glom onto, they can keep the audience at bay, like a room full of clueless corporate managers quite content because they know the current industry catch-phrases (actual knowledge of what the fresh jargon means is of course, optional).

Okay, now I'm just getting cynical again, and probably bordering on not so nice, so ...

#227. Posted by: ealgumby at June 1, 2008 8:50 PM

@Cecil Rose, posts 200, 202

He meant my post on the part 1 thread, not a separate blog. Hey! Why do you need to be informed if I have my own blog somewhere?!? LOL

AS for the bottles, yes. Just like Dharma Saltines, you'll never know when or where you'll need one!

Cecil Rose, are you a Doctor Who fan? The Adipose were a race of *aptly named) sentient fat in the season opener this year.

#228. Posted by: FenwayBen at June 1, 2008 9:19 PM

I'm not alone!!

As I stated in an earlier post, I plan to watch for the next two years, just not try to figure out things, because the mistakes are as prevalent as the easter eggs and subtle clues. I reserve the option to quit watching if things deteriorate.

Let's start a list of all in the boat(WAGNABB - We Are Gonna Need A Bigger Boat - did I remember that right) that want a return to better management of plot creation. The writers read these blogs, we need to send a message. I will take the liberty of adding ealgumby to the list. Copy, paste and add yourself to the list if so inclined. ealgumby - copy paste and delete if I've overstepped.

mtncbn
ealgumby

#229. Posted by: mtncbn at June 1, 2008 10:01 PM

Clementine... thanks for the kind word. (I do know what you mean... I just had to clean up literal catbarf this morning, which was not so fun)

#230. Posted by: catbarf at June 1, 2008 10:08 PM

→ 227. Posted by: ealgumby
You mean there's no Chunnel train going from the island to Tunisia? I hear you, that analogy of a worm crawling through an apple is weak. Truth be told I don't really get wormholes, too theoretical for my taste, nor do I know whether the other "end" would have to end up on the exact opposite side of the earth? But feasible enough for the writers? Maybe. I'm also seriously concerned about the writers being able to pull off a consistent, plausible theory of what has happened, but they already have my nickel so I might as well enjoy the show.

Too bad about Locke dying -- he was such a lonely guy. Maybe he had too much negatively charged erotic matter.

#231. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at June 1, 2008 10:26 PM

BTW - what is ealgumby??

Maybe our format should be

---- Petition to TPTB -----
We the dedicated followers of LOST humbly request:
1. A canon list of details that we have misinterpreted. (due to production error, etc.)
2. A return to well founded science and consistency. (i.e. Sayid not knowing about body armour(Keamy), radio transmission from underground, suddenly route to and from Island doesn't matter)
3.
...

signed:
mtncbn
----- End Petition -------

I'm not good at putting thoughts on paper, all those more eloquent help out here please.

#232. Posted by: mtncbn at June 1, 2008 10:38 PM

Really, if you think about it, how would the "theory" of all of the stuff happening on the island ever be made, regardless of whether there were two or ten more seasons?

Would Ben sit down in front of Locke's grave and spend and entire hour describing how everything worked in scientific terms? That generally is not how the real world works.

And thus far, who of the characters seem to actually know what is behind the occurances? The only one close is Ben and he simply uses the "power". He has never shown any understanding of the power behind it.

Maybe Jacob will write a memoir and the producers will market it to those of us who are left who just have to know.

#233. Posted by: Carl at June 1, 2008 11:06 PM

I have not read all the latest posts, and perhaps someone already made this point.
--------------------------------
"The Boy Who Cried Wolf"
--------------------------------
The writers ought to be concerned that they are losing their credibility.

They presnt Locke in a (coffin) Box.
In a normal show, the audience would take that to mean Locke is dead.

But not this audience. Judging from the comments posted above, hardly anyone believes Locke is dead. He is maybe faking it like the characters before with spider bites. Or maybe he is time travelling. Or maybe it is not really Locke. Or maybe it is just a trick by Ben. Or maybe the Island will bring him back to life. Or maybe there are two or more Lockes. Or maybe there is a parallel universe and dead Locke is from there. Or maybe this is just someone's dream sequence.

All these theories make sense if you have been watching Lost for awhile. The audience has been taught: don't believe anything you see from these writers because they just look for ways to trick us, to create at least two mysteries for every one that is resolved.

So if the writers really wanted us to believe something (e.g. Locke is dead for real, which I doubt) they won't be able to pull it off. In other words, when the solf really shows up and the writers claim the wolf is really here, the audience will debate why the wolf was not really there. It was like the polar bears we may or may not have seen in previous episodes. Wonder if they will explain the polar bears or that will be one of the mysteries they never have to explain because the audience will be distracted by something bigger.

Writers- is that what you really want? To have no one believe anything you say?

#234. Posted by: Chad Brown at June 1, 2008 11:12 PM

Or maybe a class action suite.
The TPTB have driven me from beer to hard liqueur. (Hi Jack)

#235. Posted by: mtncbn at June 1, 2008 11:51 PM

For those interested in some Hoff's Drawler Anagrams. I listed a few. The best is: Flash forwerd

Here are the rest:
1. WALDORF FRESH
2. FORWARD FLESH
3. FORWARD SHELF
4. DWARF FLESH OR
5. DWARF SHELF OR
6. HARD SERF FLOW
7. HARD SERF WOLF
8. HARD SERF FOWL
9. SHARD FLEW FRO
10. SHARD FLEW FOR
11. DASH ERR WOLFF
12. SHAD ERR WOLFF
13. LARD SHREW OFF
14. DRAWL FRESH OF
15. DRAW FLESH FRO
16. DRAW FLESH FOR
17. DRAW SHELF FRO
18. DRAW SHELF FOR
19. DRAW FRESH FLO
20. WARD FLESH FRO
21. WARD FLESH FOR
22. WARD SHELF FRO
23. WARD SHELF FOR
24. WARD FRESH FLO
25. SAD HERR WOLFF
26. SHAFFER WORLD
27. HALF WORD SERF
28. FLASH FRED ROW
29. FLASH DREW FRO
30. FLASH DREW FOR
31. WHARF SLED FRO
32. WHARF SLED FOR
33. WHARF OLD SERF
34. WHARF ROD SELF
35. FLAW SHRED FRO
36. FLAW SHRED FOR
37. FLAW ROD FRESH
38. FAR SHRED FLOW
39. FAR SHRED WOLF
40. FAR SHRED FOWL
41. FAR SHREWD FLO
42. FAR FOLD SHREW
43. FAR FORD WELSH
44. FAR WOLD FRESH
45. FAR WORD FLESH
46. FAR WORD SHELF
47. WALSH FRED FRO
48. WALSH FRED FOR
49. WALSH DOFF ERR
50. SHAWL FRED FRO
51. SHAWL FRED FOR
52. SHAWL DOFF ERR
53. WAHL FORD SERF
54. RASH FRED FLOW
55. RASH FRED WOLF
56. RASH FRED FOWL
57. RASH RED WOLFF
58. RASH FORD FLEW
59. LARS DREW HOFF
60. LARS DOFF WEHR
61. LAW FORD FRESH
62. AWL FORD FRESH
63. WAR FOLD FRESH
64. WAR FORD FLESH
65. WAR FORD SHELF
66. RAW FOLD FRESH
67. RAW FORD FLESH
68. RAW FORD SHELF

#236. Posted by: lidmaker at June 2, 2008 12:10 AM

One of many questions I will ponder for until next season:

It seemed to me that the video that Locke watched in the Orchid was supposed to help us understand that the island was moved in time rather than physical location. As Dr Candle/Wickmund/Halliwax (or whatever his name was) stated, the bunny would seem to disappear for a few moments when it was moved forward in time. The island certainly disappeared. This seems to be supported by the fact that Ben next appears roughly 10 months in the future still wearing the same clothes and with the same cut on his arm still bleeding.

So if this is the case, how could Ben have been the cause of Nadia's death by car accident? If he went straight from the frozen donkey wheel to the tunsian desert (landing after Nadia's death)? Was Widmore actually behind the accident was Ben said or was it really just an accident that Ben is conveniently using to his advantage (with the aid of some contrived evidence) to emotionally manipulate Sayid?

One more question:

Kate was angry with Jack for believing what John Lock (aka Jeremy Bentham) "of all people" told him. Jack then said something about how he "did it to protect" Kate and Aaron. What was it that he has done for John Locke?

Unfortunately I have only had the chance to watch it once. More thoughts/question after I watch it again.

#237. Posted by: "old" Christine at June 2, 2008 1:44 AM

Lost only makes sense after reading all your comments - you guys are great!

I noticed a quick shot of what looked like 2 tombstones in the cave Ben traveled in when going to the Donkey wheel.

Also - seems like the characters are starting to evolve over time -
Sawyer is becoming more interested in saving others (Hurley, Claire) now than just saving himself - (withholding medicine from Shannon).
Sun confronts her father rather than running away from him.

Also also - Ben has said he's the "good guys" and would never harm the innocent - but dusted the freighter folks without a 2nd thought. Ben=liar.

#238. Posted by: Mark at June 2, 2008 1:53 AM

Petitions and shark jumping and no credibility, oh my! And here I'd thought I'd found the yellow brick road of other people who actually also enjoyed the show- you know, like for fun.

First, the suggestion that the Lost creative team delay the finale a month or so to improve the production quality is as unrealistic as a wormhole developing between the Sam Adams Brewery and my refrigerator.

The official network tv season ends in May with the final sweeps week. No network would ever burn off new episodes of an a-list show out of season. It would be equivalent to moving a Yankees-Red Sox midseason series to December so both teams could get in more batting practice.

Secondly, we are being naive if any of us expect that real world casting and production issues don't impact the creative process. Ben was supposed to be a 3 episode character in season 2. Do you think that maybe his emergence has forced some significant plot changes?

The actors playing Michael and Richard were originally expected to be unavailable this season- so imagine this year without the Kevin Johnson and Alpert meets young Locke storylines.

Eight episodes were completed when the strike started (through "Meet Kevin Johnson"). Would the disillusioned posters really be happier if the show had gone into Sopranos-style hibernation?

I'm not an apologist for Lost, just a realist. They essentially erased three preplanned episodes from this season- gone were backstories on Libby and Rousseau, and significantly more info on the freighter scientific team of Miles, Charlotte, Daniel and Frank.

They now have a finite number of episodes left. They can no longer monkey around with Paulikki stories and Island golf. Every episode has to advance the plot, potentially at speeds that will leave some viewers saying "hey, more detail, please".

Debate about the relevance of prop and wardrobe continuity is like playing an old pc adventure game where you have to click on every pixel to find some ridiculous but incredibly important clue. There's no question that some of that does exist in this show as a bone to Lost-obsessives (maybe too much), but there are millions of fans who enjoy the show who don't know an "easter egg" from an easter bonnet.

The show itself hasn't revealed its hand. Wormholes, black boxes, parallel dimensions, casimir effect, etc. are terms viewers have used, not the show (except for the last Dharma orientation video, which seemed highly suspect). When viewers express anger, disapointment or disbelief, what they're really saying is that TPTB have not presented the science in a way consistent with your personal explanation and knowledge of how this would all work if it was real.

It's not real, folks. If you're still angry in two years when the final reveal happens, I'll understand. In the meantime, dedicated Lost fans are going to be the smartest friggin' tv viewers in the world, because right now they're researching on-line everything from casimir effects and utilitarianism to Dharma Wheels and the proper way to translate Egyptian hieroglyphics.

#239. Posted by: Mizzed at June 2, 2008 2:36 AM

So it's looking more and more like Charles Widmore was the ex-Chosen One on the island before Ben took over - hence his, "You took everything from me" line.

Richard Alpert seems to be the right hand man who has seen all the regimes - Widmore, Ben and now Locke.

Speaking of Locke, I foresee his dead body being taken back to the island in the next season, being regenerated, standing up and telling Jack, "See, I told you miracles exist." I think it's pretty clear that Locke won't be dead for long.

So if Locke's off-island/possibly dead at the end of the finale flashforward, then whois the current leader/Chosen One on the island at that time? Ben is clearly still exiled, as we see him speaking to Jack beside Locke's body. So who's running the island in their absence. Will Widmore have taken back control of the island by the end of season 5?

Also, is anyone else thinking that Charlotte may have been born on the island? I'm thinking she may be the girl (Annie was it?) that Ben was friends with as a youngster in his flashback. Her conversation with Miles has been overlooked, but I think it may turn out to be one of the most important parts of the finale.

Speaking of that, Lost constantly takes small, insigificant seeming characters or plot points and turns them into massively important storyline. I'm thinking Charlotte and Farraday are going to become very important next season.

Cheers,

#240. Posted by: crawfordicon at June 2, 2008 6:52 AM

239. Posted by: Mizzed

GREAT POSTING!

#241. Posted by: davidrh at June 2, 2008 7:13 AM

→ 224. Posted by: davidrh
Scooby-Dude wrote:
"it makes sense that Ben lands in Tunisia because that is the other end of the wormhole."

Posted by: Mizzed -
"This suggests that Tunisia is a known, permanent destination at the other end of the wormhole (we also saw Charlotte excavate the Dharma polar bear here, so someone knows this off-island as well). //Is this a clue to the hieroglyphics, ruins, 4-toed statue, etc- that some ancient people accidentally came to the island via the wormhole from the other side?

This DOES seem like a very definite, albeit speculative, and then again plausible plot likelihood . . . (What the hell kind of sentence did I just write!?!?...)
Anyway, seems like a good thread to pursue."

Yeah, So, this is bothering me. Did Ben "set" this all up from the island?
Or has he done it before?

How did he know:
I am going to move the island by blowing up a station and going down a hole and cracking an ice barrier and etc.
How to move the island.
How to blow a hole in the chamber.
That it would be cold.
That he needed a coat. (With matches in the pocket)
That he would need the crowbar to break the ice.
That he should push the wheel. (8 sided figure, as someone else has mentioned) and (if he pushed it the other way, would he be in the past?)

IF Ben has done it before, is there another door to this place? Or has it been explained to him?

#242. Posted by: berkyo at June 2, 2008 8:03 AM

If the destination was preordained, why didn't he know exactly what language to speak?

#243. Posted by: meg at June 2, 2008 8:13 AM

→ 229. Posted by: mtncbn
Re: Boat leaving from berth 815

I have said I will be disappointed with a "Lame" ending. But I would still enjoy the show. I love looking for connections and so called meaning. But I don't really understand all I read about wormholes and time travel. All I need to know is that time on the island is a relative thing. Okay, not the same time as where I am. And some kind of hole in the ground goes somewhere and maybe winds up in Tunisia in the future because there is dark matter involved.
I can suspend my belief that far. It is a TV show. But I will be unhappy with Aliens in an island shaped spaceship.

I wart to be able to figure out
who took the clip out of the Swan Video.
Who is good and who is bad.
How come none of the main characters were seriously injured in the crash.
Why did Ben pick the ones he did for Michael to bring.
Who is Mrs. Hawking and etc.
What are the whispers.
Etc. Etc.

So, I am getting in the boat yet. I will swim along for awhile. Besides I need the exercise.

And Ealgumby and mntcbn and others smarter than I - Please keep hashing things out here. I look forward to the facts that you bring to the suppositions we all throw around.

#244. Posted by: berkyo at June 2, 2008 8:26 AM

ealgumby wrote

"Whatever mechanism they had built up re the importance of the course to/from the island was blown out of the water in the last ep, with people coming and going as they please."
------

I don't understand. Weren't they still using 305? The Helicopter did follow it but then couldn't find the freighter until Hurley spotted it. What was the truth that you say has been shattered?
If Lapidus turned the copter around was he on a different heading?

I don't notice the production errors until you guys point them out. So I don't mind if someone screwed up the logo. I think it IS sloppy but it doesn't bother me as I didn't notice it.Now if it were an entirely different log that would something. But the crow bar moving MAY have a meaning. Someone mentioned the tape rewinding as a time effect in that station. Maybe the closer you get to dark matter - was that it's name? time/space is not reliable. Maybe the glyphs say ""Please keep personal possessions secured."

#245. Posted by: berkyo at June 2, 2008 8:36 AM

239. Posted by: Mizzed - thank you. much like a hallmark card you said exactly what i wanted to but couldn't find the words.

#246. Posted by: surefoot at June 2, 2008 8:41 AM

→ 234. Posted by: Chad Brown
"It was like the polar bears we may or may not have seen in previous episodes. Wonder if they will explain the polar bears or that will be one of the mysteries they never have to explain because the audience will be distracted by something bigger."

Well, the Polar bears were brought to the island by Dharma for experiments in having them survive in a different habitat. Ben and the others had no need for Polar bears so they sent them through the "wormhole" to see if they would arrive in Tunisia in the past. They were prob marked 1 and 2. They were a clue that time/space travel was possible.
I don't see a problem. I believe it.


#247. Posted by: berkyo at June 2, 2008 8:45 AM

@219 Mr_Naysayer recommended:

>I am going to rewatch every episode from the beginning - I did this before during the last long break - just watch an episode or two every Thursday at 9pm and you'll get your LOST fix.

I tried that when i got the S-1 and S-2 DVD's last summer. But like nay junkie, I kept having to up my dose, and ended up finishing them in two weeks.

#248. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 8:50 AM

That should be
So, I am NOT getting in the boat yet.

#249. Posted by: berkyo at June 2, 2008 8:51 AM

@ 239 Mizzed - nicely said, love your analogies, they hit home for me :-)

I usually don't notice the production 'liberties' you all speak of, mainly because aircraft and time-space stuff etc are outside the realm of my reality, so I read your comments and sometimes think - no biggie, I didn't notice, but as I ponder this this morning after reading the posts I remember - how many times have I scoffed at the way CPR is performed, or the unreality of the surgeries and the transfusions and so on and so on, and I understand your frustrations. But I also enjoy your comments, so don't give up....

#250. Posted by: lostinVT at June 2, 2008 9:08 AM

@228 FenwayBen responded:

>He meant my post on the part 1 thread, not a separate blog. Hey! Why do you need to be informed if I have my own blog somewhere?!? LOL

Because I'd go anywhere to read anything you've written - bound to be interesting.

>Cecil Rose, are you a Doctor Who fan? The Adipose were a race of *aptly named) sentient fat in the season opener this year.

I resisted for years, but have lately gotten hooked. Torchwood, too.

#251. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 9:11 AM

@224 davidrh exposited:

>BTW, Cecil. Thanks for post 200. It was quite the lesson in the distilation of random thought and your process of outline structure. (Also a lesson in NOT trusting your copy and paste cycle and always double checking the “paste” . . . )

I was experimenting with copying th whole thing over to Word and working there (spell checker, yo-o). But the heat on our second floor was making me woozy, and I didn't realize I hadn't deleted a bunch of un-commented on stuff in the middle. Also experimenting with Word macros to reformat between posts.

#252. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 9:16 AM

@234 Chad Brown wrote:

>Writers- is that what you really want? To have no one believe anything you say?

A very, very good point, which I would hope the writers will maybe address in a podcast sometime soon.

#253. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 9:21 AM

Oh mAc:

I just noticed that on the "Content Submission Error" page you get transfered to if you're making a post and forget to put in your name or email address, the page heading is:

"The Lost Blog
News, rumors, spoilers and reviews for the ABC TV show "Lost.""

Inasmuch as you've got a pretty firm "no-spoiler" policy here, you might want to change that heading.

And thanks folks, for keeping the spoilers off the blog, so I could watch part 2 totally unspoiled.

#254. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 9:26 AM

@235 mtncbn proposed:

>Or maybe a class action suite.

Is that like the hospitality suite?

#255. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 9:29 AM

@236 lidmaker showed off:

>For those interested in some Hoff's Drawler Anagrams. I listed a few. The best is: Flash forwerd

>1. WALDORF FRESH
>2. FORWARD FLESH
>3. FORWARD SHELF...

Except the name is "Hoffs/Drawlar"

#256. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 9:37 AM

@239 Mizzed spoke a great deal of good common sense:

>...When viewers express anger, disapointment or disbelief, what they're really saying is that TPTB have not presented the science in a way consistent with your personal explanation and knowledge of how this would all work if it was real.

Very well spoken. I think any viewer angst is based on the writer/producers' earlier assertion that there were no suoernatural explanations for what occurred on the show - that everything had a rational explanation. All I can say is - it better be a doozy.

Nevertheless, I continue to enjoy the show very much.

#257. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 9:46 AM

I am so out of the loop...someone, enlighten me, please...what are we using TPTB to stand for? I am sure this is obvious to everyone, but I missed the boat...thanks!

#258. Posted by: Vikki at June 2, 2008 9:51 AM

#258 Vikki asked:

>I am so out of the loop...someone, enlighten me, please...what are we using TPTB to stand for?

The Powers That Be

i.e. the producers/writers/directors who control the show.

#259. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 10:11 AM

258. Posted by: Vikki - TPTB = the powers that be...the writers, producers etc.

#260. Posted by: surefoot at June 2, 2008 10:15 AM

#258 Vikki asked:"...TPTB to stand for?"


Or

"Tasmanian Precipitin Treponema Bondmaiden"

Whichever is easiest for you to remember.

#261. Posted by: davidrh at June 2, 2008 10:28 AM

So, the island was moved. And we're now at the end of series four, give or take a few hours, where we finished series three.

"They have to go back"

So why did they have to move the island? I thought it was because Widmore's men were there and Jacob told Locke to tell Ben to move the island to get away from Widmore's men. But if Ben killed Keamy who I'm assuming was the last one, of the bad men, doesn't that make the island "safe", therefore there really wasn't any need to move the island, why was there the rush?

Why was it Jack's fault for all the bad things that happened on the island while he wasn't there? Jack was intending to return to the island as Ben and Locke decided to move it therefore I can't think of any reason to place the blame on Jack for the "bad things". What are these bad things anyway? And how the hell does Ben know that all of them have to go back. Where's he getting his information? How did Locke get off the island anyway?

However I will disclose what is really disturbing me about the ending of this series. The fact that Locke rallys round the Oceanic Six telling them things that induces Kate's denial, initiates Jack's guilt, motivates Sun's revenge and prompts Sayid to protect Hurley. I am shocked that Locke is dead but intrigued as to why Jack is so very frightened and disturbed by this. The things that Locke must have told Jack have have affected him in such traumatic ways. I don't know whether to believe that Locke commited suicide or was killed. Either way it has forced Jack to understand that he needs to go back.

But what for? To save the island or his friends?

Mulling over thoughts in my head...

#262. Posted by: AC at June 2, 2008 10:29 AM

Don't know if you saw this Slate article on Lost, but the premise is interesting:

www.slate.com/id/2192268/

88. Posted by: ealgumby at May 30, 2008 10:54 PM

Did you get the authors name?
Is she connected to the show

#263. Posted by: btly at June 2, 2008 11:42 AM

@ 227/ ealgumby et al:

Production/prop errors deal with the actual filming of a scene are like traffic citations; however, script errors in dealing with the underlying foundation of the subject matter are like literary felonies.

This gets back to the tangent debate of whether the show creators had this story mapped out from the beginning or whether critics charged "they are making it up as they go along." If they had the story foundation from the beginning, there would be no script errors since they should have created a continuity manual like Roddenberry did for Star Trek: an explanation of all the sci-fi science principles so there is consistent foundation for the show. Example, to get around the problem of the limit of light speed, Roddenberry created the concept of warp drive, a device that would warp spacetime, so the characters could get to distant points without bogging down the story. The best science fiction is rooted in some factual basis or scientific theory. We can suspend disbelief on the application of such theory if the overall construct of the show is consistent.

But the show has been presented as an action-adventure-mystery set in 2004-2008. In order to solve the mysteries as they are presented, we can only use the clues within the show and our collective knowledge and experience. When obsessive fans begin to scratch their heads, pull out their hair, drink excessively when posting, and seek out scarf catalogues for the summer fashion scene, there is a communication problem from TPTB.

After 4 seasons, I still don't understand why the underlying Big Premise of the show needs to remain such a secret. If this is an action-adventure science drama where the characters are all LSD-fried, mind control lab rats released on an island by a large pharma company to see what happens, then fine. If this is a science fiction tale where the island is an alien mothership of Others intent on experimenting on the human race before conquest, that's fine too. If this fantasy, based upon a different dimension of flying islands, good and evil ghosts, spirit worlds, Hell, whatever, then that's fine as well. Just tell us the Big Picture so we can move along with the character story lines.


#264. Posted by: welh at June 2, 2008 11:44 AM

@263 btly relayed:

>>Don't know if you saw this Slate article on Lost, but the premise is interesting:

>>www.slate.com/id/2192268/

>>@Posted by: ealgumby

>Did you get the authors name?
Is she connected to the show

Hey! Them thar Slate riters shur no sum big wurds....

"Without a frame of reference, the viewers experience epistemological anxiety, doubting even their most basic assumptions about the world the characters live in."

That's what I got, that thar "epistemological anxiety".

#265. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 11:53 AM

@Cecil Rose/257
“I think any viewer angst is based on the writer/producers' earlier assertion that there were no supernatural explanations for what occurred on the show - that everything had a rational explanation. All I can say is - it better be a doozy.

Nevertheless, I continue to enjoy the show very much.”

I agree with your assessment, and I still do enjoy the show; just suggesting the staff is playing games with the audience. You know what? That would even be fine with me, if they were to simply admit it ... what gets me is that they keep acting like they’re not.

While not “serious” SF, I enjoyed “Back To The Future,” complete with “flux capacitor” ... there was no pretense that the FC made any sense in the real world, nor that viewers were supposed to figure out how it works ... it was simply a plot device, and accepting that, I sat back and enjoyed the show.

My contention with “Lost” is that the writers are keeping their “rational explanation” a moving target, such that no viewer will EVER “get it right.” I’m quite sure they do have the broad outline of the story worked out to completion of the series, but have left enough slop in the story-line to adjust details as they go. I can’t help but feel it’s become a game: (1) throw out a couple of quixotic details via the show or interview, (2) let the audience mold these into a prevailing theory, (3) modify the plot slightly (as needed) so the audience will be “wrong” and kept off-balance, (4) come up with new details to support the “new” story-line, (5) lather, rinse, repeat.


@lostinVT/250
“I usually don't notice the production 'liberties' you all speak of, mainly because aircraft and time-space stuff etc. are outside the realm of my reality, so I read your comments and sometimes think - no biggie, I didn't notice, but as I ponder this this morning after reading the posts I remember - how many times have I scoffed at the way CPR is performed, or the unreality of the surgeries and the transfusions and so on and so on, and I understand your frustrations.”

Exactly. People notice what they know, and more importantly, people notice what’s “wrong” with what they know. My ex would’ve screamed bloody murder if they were trying to pass off DSW rack shoes as Manolos! I’m not a theoretical physicist by trade, but I am an aerospace engineer, and deal with advanced math and space science on a daily basis, so excuse me if I scream bloody murder over what I see as the equivalent.


@berkyo/244
“I can suspend my belief that far. It is a TV show. But I will be unhappy with Aliens in an island shaped spaceship.”

Actually, I’m potentially suspending belief, and you’re willing to suspend disbelief ...

Anyway, your comment bears directly to what I just said above ... you’ll scream bloody murder if aliens are involved, because that’ll violate your sense of what makes sense. Perhaps I’m too sensitive to the “realism” issue, because I’m too close to it professionally, but I view that’s been done lately with the show as equivalent.


@berkyo/245
“I don't understand. Weren't they still using 305? The Helicopter did follow it but then couldn't find the freighter until Hurley spotted it. What was the truth that you say has been shattered?”

The “truth” that has been violated is the lack of apparent time offsets. They spent several episodes (e.g., the rocket test, the first flight from the island, dead doc, etc.), in fact most of the season, emphasizing that travel to/from the island was a tricky endeavor, and there might be some expected “slop” in time offset at the destination, because no one can maintain an “exact” course for the journey. That was fine with trips being infrequent ... the “time offsets” merged into the plot-line.

However, in the finale, they are going back and forth ... bam bam bam ... with NO time offsets! WTF? Suddenly, the island doesn’t care about the course? We needed Daniel’s concerned mumblings about the rocket’s 30-minute time offset earlier, but suddenly we can have people going to and fro, via chopper, zodiac raft, or swimming, all PERFECTLY synchronized? That’s my screaming bloody murder moment!


@Mizzed/239
“When viewers express anger, disapointment or disbelief, what they're really saying is that TPTB have not presented the science in a way consistent with your personal explanation and knowledge of how this would all work if it was real.”

Uh, NO ... it has nothing to do with MY “personal explanation” yadda yadda yadda ... it has to do with ANY consistent rational explanation.

#266. Posted by: ealgumby at June 2, 2008 11:54 AM

And the slate author's name is "Juliet Lapidos". I thinkl she's a relative of Frank's.

#267. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2008 11:56 AM

@Cecil Rose/265
That's what I got, that thar "epistemological anxiety".

Actually, from my perspective, I find that pretty damned accurate. :)

#268. Posted by: ealgumby at June 2, 2008 12:05 PM

→ 264. Posted by: welh
Hell, whatever, then that's fine as well. Just tell us the Big Picture so we can move along with the character story lines.

YEAH!.......and some other clues too.


#269. Posted by: berkyo at June 2, 2008 12:18 PM

If everyone has to go back doesn't that include Desmond? Have we ever seen an episode where Ben and Desmond are together? Do they even know one another exists? Thats so strange?...

#270. Posted by: AC at June 2, 2008 12:27 PM

@ 268 - ealgumby
"@Cecil Rose/265
That's what I got, that thar "epistemological anxiety".

Actually, from my perspective, I find that pretty damned accurate. :)"

You will be happy to know that as a result of my search on "epistemological anxiety" (yup - had to look it up...) there are many promising therapies out there for ya.

#271. Posted by: lostinVT at June 2, 2008 12:34 PM

266. Posted by: ealgumby

"(travel) with NO time offsets!"

Okay, I see. I did not catch that. You are right about that.

I think the first raft and maybe the second took longer than it should have. Hours? Was there any change in/on the island that would account for the change in time offset?

Could Ben "turn off" the need to follow 305 Because he wanted to get them off the island fast before he moved it? for some reason? I wonder why the freighter was behind them when Lapidus followed 305. Pilot told Desmond they could not move the boat because of the interference with their underwater viewer thingee.

But the freighter was visible from the island when the last boat left. Maybe something else was going on.

If the writers were just ignoring the time offset why not just have them fly to the boat without the boat moving? Was this lack of time offset going on when Ben and Locke were in the the station? Would the disturbance in the station - hole in the wall - release some matter to effect time/space locally? Could be that's why they sealed it up, it was leaking....

Remember the moved crow bar? Maybe not a production error.

I don't know. This bothers me, now......but I didn't see it until you explained it.

And you can see I am trying to find a reason.

#272. Posted by: berkyo at June 2, 2008 12:40 PM

@ 271 - myself

"as a result of my search on "epistemological anxiety" (yup - had to look it up...) there are many promising therapies out there for ya."

Well, actually the many promising therapies are not there AS A result of my search, I just happen to know about them now :-)

#273. Posted by: lostinVT at June 2, 2008 12:41 PM

Have we ever seen an episode where Ben and Desmond are together? Do they even know one another exists? Thats so strange?...
→ 270. Posted by: AC

I don't know. That's a good question. Of course if he watched the losties in the hatch from the other hatch, he could have watched Desmond too.

#274. Posted by: berkyo at June 2, 2008 12:42 PM

@mtncbn #164
I also wondered about Sayid not checking to be sure Keamy was dead. But when they showed Sayid kill the guy outside Hurley's hospital, it looked like after he shot him, Sayid looked at his chest for a second. I took that as fool me once...

@davidr #16
Re: Good Morning America alternate endings, it was Desmond and Sawyer in the coffin not Sayid. Not that it matters either way (except I didn't like seeing Sawyer dead - he's too hot for death)

Like some others have mentioned, I thought Claire's accent wasn't very pronounced either - maybe not? and she did look a little chubby in the face.

Sun broke my heart crying for Jin. Even after watching it a second time, I still teared up.

Last but not least, Ben showing up @ the funeral parlor. I was too busy trying to figure out who was in the coffin to pay attention to what he was saying & had to rewind(like the bunny tape-haha)

That's all I got for now.

#275. Posted by: xanadude at June 2, 2008 12:53 PM

Of course Sayid looked a bit strange after Keamy got shot!! Sayid knows about the "dead man's trigger" and he would know that if Keamy was actually dead his "trigger" would change colour.
The real question is why didn't Sayid let on that he knew that Keamy was still alive!

I still haven't found an episode where Ben and Desmond acknowledge each other...

#276. Posted by: AC at June 2, 2008 1:32 PM

Okay-- I did a little research on YouTube (if you want you can look it up there too so you can hear it for yourself)...
1. What Sawyer whispers to Kate: "I have a daughter in Alabama. Find her and tell her I'm sorry."
2. What the man on the phone in Kate's dream is saying: It is a phrase being played backwards. When you play it forward he is saying, "You have to go back to the Island."

But I am confused-- If it is SO important for EVERYONE to go back to the island (and so important that Kate does not raise Aaron), then HOW COME Claire warns kate in a dream, "DON'T YOU DARE BRING HIM BACK!!!" ???

My theory on the boat explosion:
This definately could be false, but didn't Michael say the nitrogen was freezing the battery so the bomb wouldn't go off? He kept stopping for a few minutes and then starting up again once it was defrosting... So how would the bomb explode the INSTANT after he stops "freezing" the battery?? Isn't it more plausible to think that after Christian shows up, Michael has a few more seconds/minutes to leave the boat before the battery defrosts and the bomb goes off??
Also, Jin may have been thrown off the boat instead of killed and gotten into the rescue boat with Farraday (remember when the island was moved, Farraday and some of the 815ers were in the rescue boat between the island and the ship)..... SO WHERE IS FARRADAY AND THE REST IN THAT BOAT?? Hmmm...something to think about...

#277. Posted by: Sarah at June 2, 2008 1:51 PM

re: → 239.
... delay the finale a month or so to improve the production quality is as unrealistic as a wormhole developing between the Sam Adams Brewery and my refrigerator.
=============
Are you who you say you are? Because that sounds an awful lot like a ...Red...Neck...Man-nerism.
=============
re: actors accents. who cares? listen to Yoon-Jim Kim go. she's had a language coach for the last four years and she speaks better english than any of the other actors now. can't wait to see her start spewing out sawyerisms. or start huffing for breath like jack.
=============
BTW (by the way),
TPTB really stands for

Tunisian Power Thumping Baton

#278. Posted by: MorBid0 at June 2, 2008 1:52 PM

→ 243. Posted by: meg
>>If the destination was preordained, why didn't he know exactly what language to speak?


Ben did know what languages are spoken in Tunisia. He just didn't know which one of the major languages those particular men spoke.

Tunisia was colonized by the French so almost everyone speaks Arabic and French along with a third language (e.g. Italian due to close proximity with Italy, Berber if you’re from the south or happen to be a Nomad…so on and so forth).

It’s interesting that the hotel clerk spoke to Ben in English. English is not a commonly used language in Tunisia, ESPECIALLY in the south where people are a bit less advanced than someone from a major city would be. Who knows, maybe speaking English was a prerequisite for her job or any job in hospitality… or another production error (don’t hurt me ealgumby).

#279. Posted by: Skipper at June 2, 2008 2:10 PM

ealgumby: no viewer will EVER “get it right.” Cecil Rose: All I can say is - it better be a doozy.

Because this is a network tv show, we WILL get a resolution. Even the most obtuse shows like Twin Peaks and X-Files eventually had to reveal what was behind the curtain.

However, the solution is almost never as interesting as the mystery, and while my hopes would be high, my expectations would be low.
***************

ealgumby: The “truth” that has been violated is the lack of apparent time offsets.

You may be absolutely correct, or you may absolutely incorrect. We are drawing conclusions based on seeing only half of the page. The time offset problem was a consistent issue, and then apparently- no issue at all.

At least two events happened in the interim- Faraday and Charlotte broke into the Tempest and altered its settings. They claimed it was a station to release poisonous gas, but we only have their word to go on.

Secondly, Locke released Ben to roam freely through the compound.

It may be that the writers got rushed and lazy and dropped the whole offset problem for expediency sake, but does Lost seem like a casual, carelssly scripted show to you?
********

a possibly offended ealgumby writes: "Uh, NO ... it has nothing to do with MY “personal explanation” yadda yadda yadda ... it has to do with ANY consistent rational explanation."

I defer to you being far more knowledgable in the areas of theoretical physics than I am. But I think Clarke's laws definitely apply here:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I don't know whether Ben's tunnel to Tunisia is supposed to be a wormhole or not. TPTB haven't said. I do know that a wormhole is a theoretical construct without any direct, empirical evidence to support or deny its existence.

How can anybody claim the high ground in a debate about a fictional representation of a hypothetical concept?

#280. Posted by: Mizzed at June 2, 2008 2:33 PM

@ MorBid0: right here bro...just been lurking and waiting for my re-watch to explode w/ insight and ensuing hilarity....much like the hilarity taken from saying 'donkey punch' instead of donkey wheel.....WAAAAZZZZUUP!!!!

#281. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at June 2, 2008 3:04 PM

→ 234. Posted by: Chad Brown
Writers- is that what you really want? To have no one believe anything you say?

Well said. I don't mind the little production errors that resulted from the rushed deadline or that in TV-land Sayid failed to make sure Keamy was dead, but if Locke really is dead, we would have little emotional investment in what happens to him leading up to his ending up in the casket. That's why I'll bet a case of choco hats that he's not dead or will become undead. That's the only way I can reconcile the unreliable narrator point of view vs. the course correcting theory and that's why I'll let the writers toy with me some more.

#282. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at June 2, 2008 3:16 PM

Mysteries are great. You get to add up all the clues and come to a conclusion, until the end when the final reveal is different. But if explained, you go "darn, how did I miss that?"

Even if the Big Premise won't be revealed, the unanswered mysteries continue to mount. We have received mere crumbs of answers in S4; while the Mystery meat continues to rot in the tropical sun.

In S1, the big question was who are the survivors?
The big mystery was what is the Monster?
Today, we have some information on most of the survivors, but no clue to what Smokey is.

In S2, the big question was who are the Others?
The big mystery was what is the Hatch and the Numbers?
Today, we have some information on a few of the Others, but no explanation of what was the Hatch or what the Numbers really mean.

In S3, the big question was who were the Dharma people who were purged by the Natives?
The big mystery was what is the Magic Box that brought Cooper to the island after his car crash?
Today, we have a generalized assumption of DI, but really don't know what they were doing on the island. The Magic Box remains unexplained even to Locke.

In S4, the big question was who are the Freighter people?
The big mystery was what is the Donkey Wheel and moving the island.
Today, we know that there were good people, bad people and blown up people on the freighter. We have no idea what the Donkey Wheel is or how the island disappeared from plain sight.

It appears that each season we are given a new group of people to analyze; like a farmer rotating his crops. Are they good? Are they bad? Who's side are they on? But the Big Mysteries remain unresolved at the end of each season.

#283. Posted by: welh at June 2, 2008 3:19 PM

I still haven't found an episode where Ben and Desmond acknowledge each other...
→ 276. Posted by: AC

TVGuide.com: "Is there anybody you wish you had more scenes with?"
Michael Emerson: "There are characters that I've never had scenes with, it's so crazy. I've never had a scene with Sun or Jin; Michael only briefly; Desmond.... Now that could be interesting. What could bring Desmond and Ben Linus together? Something in the future, I am thinking. Since Ben seems to have Penny in his sites now, that's going to bring him into a collision with Desmond at some point, I assume."

#284. Posted by: lovelost at June 2, 2008 4:11 PM

Tasmanian Precipitin Treponema Bondmaiden
→ 261. Posted by: davidrh
Tunisian Power Thumping Baton
→ 278. Posted by: MorBid0
I see a contest brewing.


#285. Posted by: lovelost at June 2, 2008 4:26 PM

@@@@@@@@@


My theory regarding Locke in the coffin:

If it were really the John Locke we've been watching and knowing since Day 1, don't you think that everyone would still call him Locke? Even if he changed his name or revealed his real name to be Jeremy Bentham - I am sure all of the 815ers and Ben would still refer to him as LOCKE. Wouldn't Walt have said, "Locke visited me, or whatever he is calling himself these days..." - he would have mentioned that to Hurley, especially since it was their first meeting in some time. Sooooooo... I think that the Locke in the Coffin is indeed someone else entirely - Jeremy Bentham - who is probably an example of there being two different entities of the same original entity - like the two rabbits in the ComicCon Orchid Video. Somehow, the rabbits were duplicated and Marvin Candle screamed about them being together in the same space and how that can't happen, etc - which is probably going to be related to the "Locke" we see in the coffin. Locke is still alive and well on the island, but his doppleganger is out trying to find answers from the remaining 815ers somewhere/somehow off of the island... somehow related or conjured up by whoever is employing Abaddon and involving other supernatural aspects of the island.

So, in conclusion, it might look like a Locke and smell like a Locke, but that Sh#t ain't a Locke!

@@@@@@@@

#286. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at June 2, 2008 4:34 PM

I solemnly swear on the coffin of John Jeremy Lockentham that this will be the last time I bring this up:

Someone earlier mentioned the Popular Mechanics site, and I would definitely endorse visiting that site to review the two articles written by theoretical physicist fan fave Michio Kaku and Richard Muller, Physics professor at UC-Berkeley, as they explain how the events in the season finale could possibly fit into our current view of physics.

As long as there are scientists who continue to publically say "it's possible", I think TPTB will claim their get out of jail free card when it comes to being consistent with their "science not supernatural" line.

I haven't seen any explanations for ealgumby's valid criticism of the disapearing time shift, but if I find one, I'l post it.

BTW, if the island moves in time, not space, and if that time is forward, say 108 minutes or some other reasonable timeframe, doesn't that create a potential story line that allows Faraday and Jin to be saved?

"Oh look- no island, we're dead. We'd better resort to survival of the fittest to stay alive as long as possible on this Zodiac".

brief time interval later...

"Hey look- the island's back. Don't I feel silly for eating that red shirt this afternoon!"

#287. Posted by: Mizzed at June 2, 2008 5:00 PM

Did anyone else see the significance of Ben's remark, "So?" when confronted by Locke w/the thought that now everyone on the freighter would die?

#288. Posted by: sweetbaby at June 2, 2008 5:16 PM

@sweetbaby- Did anyone else see the significance of Ben's remark, "So?"


Now that you mention it! Sooo,
Dead people arent dead here, who cares if I kill them. OR

They are already dead soooo.

#289. Posted by: bean116 at June 2, 2008 5:22 PM

→ 286. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer
Best answer so far re: Locke or No Locke.

Re: Charlotte. Remember when she first fell out of the tree into the water? She was positively ecstatic about being there. Now we know she was happy to "be back".

Re: Keamy's heart monitor. Given the time lapse during Dan's Island-to-boat experiment, did Keamy's device trigger the bomb in "real" time? We see him die and we see the red light on the explosives, but I didn't get a sense of when those things happened in relation to each other. Maybe it's not important.

Re: the "pocket of negatively charged exotic matter". Is this a naturally-occuring phenomenom or something Dharma created?

Why was Keamy so upset about Frank finding the tool box???

Loved Sawyer's "Sundance" comment to Jack.

Thanks you all everybody for the always entertaining read.

#290. Posted by: lovelost at June 2, 2008 5:56 PM

First of all, STOP LOSING FAITH!!!

I think every second of every episode is amazing, and TPTB have improved their credibility even more this season.

@ Mizzed - 239
Well put. I agree with everything you said.

Second of all... why does "everything change" when Locke dies?

Sayid said (paraphrased, I don't remember exactly) "The circumstances have changed, Bentham is dead."

I'm not sure if anyone said this before, but you know how Dr. Marvin Candle is also known as Dr. Mark Wickmund and Dr. Edgar Halliwax... well what if he's actually three different people?

I mean, if he was a triplet, then they would most likely have the same last name, but maybe he's a clone.

You know how I said before in one of my earlier posts that Locke didn't have his scar anymore in the coffin? Well I noticed that when he and Ben were in the Orchid, the top of his scar wasn't very noticible. I don't think it could have healed in less than a day. It may have just been the angle and the lighting though.

I find it so funny how Jack has no idea what's going on with his dad. Locke, Michael, and Claire have seen him, but they have no idea that he's also Jack's dad. Imagine what would happen if Jack saw him. He'd probably breathe really heavy.

I think Ben looked surprised when he ended up in Tunasia.

Everyone is saying that Jacob told Locke to move the island... and then they say that maybe Christian wasn't really working for Jacob. So it wasn't Jacob that told him to move it, it was Chirstian that told him to move it.

You can't always trust the messenger boys...

@ Sarah - 277
"HOW COME Claire warns kate in a dream, "DON'T YOU DARE BRING HIM BACK!!!" ???"

I think it's because it was a dream... and that's Kate's conscious talking, not Clarie.

@ Mr_Naysayer - 286
Maybe Locke, Candle, and the bunnies have something in common.

Locke --> Jeremy Bentham
Candle --> Wickmund --> Halliwax
8 --> 15 --> 16 (I think that's all we've seen so far)

They may have all been duplicated like the bunnies were.

#291. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 2, 2008 6:12 PM

re: Doctor X - let's just call him what his bunny and pandolar bear friends call him.
"Wick Candlewax"

#292. Posted by: TanziTwo at June 2, 2008 6:25 PM

As I have already taken a Desmond vow of silence on the topic that starts with an s and ends in -ience, I will now also take a "brutha vow" on the subject of time, as soon as I share the following transcript:

writer A: "we've got too much episode and not enough time- we'll never get this thing on the ground!"

writer B: "okay folks, jettison everything not nailed down!"

writer c: "Rousseau, gone!"

writer A: "interesting backstory and character development on the freighter science team, overboard!"

writer c: "explanation for seeming radical character shift in Captain Gault, eliminated!"

writer A: "okay, how are we doing now?"

writer B: "I'd feel a lot better if we could get rid of another 200 lbs!"

writer c: "We could always have the time shift theory jump off- that plot anchor weighs at least 200 pounds!"

writer a: "No way! It's central to the plot and will raise an immediate red flag!"

writer c: "It's okay. It can always swim back to the beach and be resurrected next season."

writer a: "I don't know...."

writer c: "We already spent time on the Faraday rocket, and we've established that if the proper course is followed, there is a lag of 31 minutes, right?"

writer a: "yes, but..."

writer c: "and we already showed that if the right course is not taken, you bleed from the nose and cry for your mommy until you fall over and spit the bit."

writer a: "the more logic prone fans aren't going to like it..."

writer c: "... and we used the doctor's body like a stick, to show what happens when things wander aimlessly, like this conversation."

writer a: "well, maybe..."

writer a: "and we've already had a gazillion characters say 'make sure to follow 305'.."

writer b: "okay, it's settled- get rid of it! It's going to be close- everybody hang on..I think we're going to make it..."

#293. Posted by: Mizzed at June 2, 2008 6:30 PM

Thanks for all the TPTB explanations everyone! Duh on me...that was kind of obvious I guess :)

#294. Posted by: Vikki at June 2, 2008 6:42 PM

TPTB = Tea Pot Tempest Brewing

#295. Posted by: Cecil at June 2, 2008 6:46 PM

I haven't made it through all of the posts, but I couldn't fall asleep last night thinking about this....Did anyone else think that the events that took place when the island was being moved were awfully similar to what happened when the hatch imploded? Purple sky, weird noise...Also maybe Ben putting all that metal stuff into the chamber was similar to the strong electromagnetic pull of the hatch. Please excuse the choppyness of the post, however it's hard to process things with the amount of sleep a 3 week old allows me to get. Also, if this is mentioned somewhere else..I apologize.

#296. Posted by: SayidRocks at June 2, 2008 6:51 PM

@296 SayidRocks recollected seeing, through sleep-deprived glazed eyes...

>I haven't made it through all of the posts, but I couldn't fall asleep last night thinking about this....Did anyone else think that the events that took place when the island was being moved were awfully similar to what happened when the hatch imploded? Purple sky, weird noise...

I was struck by the similarity, as well. In fact, now that you mention it, I wonder if the purpose of the every-108-minute entry was to keep the electromagnetic force from building up and making a major island-move happen, and this was only barely averted by Desmond's fail-safe key.

Also, use of the fail-safe must have had some other negative consequence, else it would have been done long before and the 108-minute entries would have been unnecessary.

#297. Posted by: Cecil at June 2, 2008 7:02 PM

@Mizzed/280
“How can anybody claim the high ground in a debate about a fictional representation of a hypothetical concept?”

As I’m sure you are aware, it’s a losing proposition to argue for the “absolute” high ground ... it’s like trying to argue against the apparent folly of the classic inquiry regarding how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The premise is inherently not falsifiable ... I can neither absolutely prove nor disprove the existence of angels (let alone whether they like to dance, or have a preference for waltzing over breaking); hence, the question has no logical solution.

In an only slightly more narrow sense, it goes to the core of philosophical arguments regarding the objectivity of science itself ... is science inherently inductive, or deductive, by nature? As Thomas Kuhn brilliantly pointed out in his “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions,” any scientist claiming to have discovered “the truth” of the universe, has historically been subsequently knocked from the “high ground,” upon acceptance of the next paradigm. Does this suggest there is no “objective” truth? Is all of science “false,” because it is apparently inductive by nature, fitting new theories to observations which defy explanation by the existing paradigm? If so, then why do physicists continue to search for a unification theory? IS there a deductive end-game to scientific exploration?

We may as well debate the existence of God, and fortunately, we don’t need to go there with this discussion. That’s because the Lost universe is bounded, according to the production staff, by existing theory. Therefore, although existing scientific theory may also include many “unfalsifiable” examples (including the oft-mentioned Novikov Principle), we have a logical “given” that the possibilities to choose from are not unlimited. The subset of all accepted scientific theory may be immense, and cover a LOT of ground, but it does close the “anything is possible” door ... the producers have promised us the basis of Lost is grounded in scientific theory, if not necessarily proven “fact.”

That being said, we (the audience) are now faced with the problem of identifying “the solution” from a VERY large, but not infinite, number of possibilities. It’s now akin to a murder mystery ... we know all the suspects, but need to infer the solution from evidence provided. Also, as in any good mystery, the solution will not necessarily be obvious, but should seem so when provided.

This forces us into the unenviable position of having to piece together an existing theory that fits the provided information ... an inherently inductive process. However, we can still try to be as deductive as possible, given the circumstances, and select “likely suspects” from the options. As new evidence becomes available, this deductive approach will either gain strength, or be proven wrong, due to inconsistency of evidence.

Given that we, through previous episodes and off-show commentary, have arrived at the conclusion that island space-time travel at some level is going on, we have seriously limited the subset of theories to choose from: (1) there is a wormhole, (2) there is a rotating black hole, or (3) there is a time-travel device of advanced design [i.e., beyond human], possibly similar to a Tipler Cylinder, or like mechanism. Given these possibilities, we can deductively assume (in all three cases) that “course” toward the “portal” is crucial to determining where the space-time traveler will end up on the destination side.

Now we can switch from inductive to deductive logic, and see what fits the available theories. Hmm, all season long, we have seen that indeed, “course” to/from the island IS in fact, crucial to where travelers “end up.” This doesn’t help us limit our choices, but does tend to confirm that one of them must be correct.

Yet suddenly, in the season finale, this evidentiary aspect seems to be wrong, unless one assumes in the incredibly unlikely event that ALL travelers have hit the exactly correct course. By the simple logic of Occam’s Razor, this would not tend to support the prevailing theories.

Therefore, we are left with a conundrum ... is there a theory out there within the original subset that we have all missed, or have the rules changed?

One might argue, “The time offset problem was a consistent issue, and then apparently- no issue at all. At least two events happened in the interim- Faraday and Charlotte broke into the Tempest and altered its settings. They claimed it was a station to release poisonous gas, but we only have their word to go on. Secondly, Locke released Ben to roam freely through the compound.”

Hmm. The only problem is that this idea falls prey to the logical regression fallacy of “post hoc ergo propter hoc” ... from wiki:

>>>
Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because (on account) of this", is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) which states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc and is also sometimes referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation or correlation not causation. It is subtly different from the fallacy cum hoc ergo propter hoc, in which the chronological ordering of a correlation is insignificant.

Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection. Most familiarly, many superstitious beliefs and magical thinking arise from this fallacy.
>>>

Myself? I would prefer not to get into “magical thinking” as the supposed basis of Lost “science” ... therefore, I opt for the second solution presented earlier ... the rules have changed. I.e., the writers have found it expedient to alter the Lost universe to fit their needs.

You ask, “It may be that the writers got rushed and lazy and dropped the whole offset problem for expediency sake, but does Lost seem like a casual, carelssly scripted show to you?”

My answer now, taking the relative “high ground,” is YES. Not until the writers strike ... but since then? YES.

This is the crux of my complaint ...

I conclude with the (somewhat apropos) broadcast lyrics from the wonderful "Pixies" song (BTW ... one of my fave bands) Jack was listening to as he pulled up to the funeral parlor ("Gouge Away"):

>>>
sleeping on your belly
you break my arms
you spoon my eyes
been rubbing a bad charm
with holy fingers

gouge away
>>>

#298. Posted by: ealgumby at June 2, 2008 7:07 PM

→ 298. One of many posted by: ealgumby

Right, wrong or otherwise. You never cease to amaze.

#299. Posted by: lovelost at June 2, 2008 7:21 PM

TPTB = Twisting Probability Twice Belief

#300. Posted by: ealgumby at June 2, 2008 7:23 PM

BTW ... the concluding chorus to "Gouge Away" (think Cooper with the Others maybe? ... or Ben "breaking the walls" to get to the frozen donkey wheel?):

>>>
chained to the pillars
a 3-day party
i break the walls
and kill us all
with holy fingers

gouge away
you can gouge away
stay all day
if you want to
>>>

Just a thought (damn, damn, damn ... and I said I wasn't going to venture into the minutiae any more!)

#301. Posted by: ealgumby at June 2, 2008 7:33 PM

"→ 297. Posted by: Cecil
I was struck by the similarity, as well. In fact, now that you mention it, I wonder if the purpose of the every-108-minute entry was to keep the electromagnetic force from building up and making a major island-move happen, and this was only barely averted by Desmond's fail-safe key.

Also, use of the fail-safe must have had some other negative consequence, else it would have been done long before and the 108-minute entries would have been unnecessary."


Now you are going clear back to Season 1 musings. If Dharma didn't want the island to "move", and it was important to them, and some electromagnetic force had to be reset every 108 minutes, it is unlikely they would have left it up to a bunch of people who were essentially lab rats to punch in the numbers.

#302. Posted by: carl at June 2, 2008 7:39 PM

286. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer
re two lockes...very good point, particularly in relation to walt. would he not be more likely to tell hurley that locke had visited him. particularly since he would have no way of knowing if hurley had ever heard of bentham?

As for the course correction, I have a feeling I am missing something. From what I saw the chopper flew to the freighter on course, Daniel has the compass specifically so that he is taking the zodiac back and forth on course and sawyer appeared to swim back to the island on the same line they had just come from. Now if all of that is true, why would there be a problem?

#303. Posted by: surefoot at June 2, 2008 7:49 PM

@carl/302
"If Dharma didn't want the island to 'move', and it was important to them, and some electromagnetic force had to be reset every 108 minutes, it is unlikely they would have left it up to a bunch of people who were essentially lab rats to punch in the numbers."

There is an obvious argument against your argument ... that the necessity to enter the numbers every 108 minutes was ITSELF a "failsafe" mechanism, of sorts ...

Imagine for example that you have control of some top-secret facility ... one easy way to "lock-down" the facility in the event of an assault, would be to have a "guard" or like individual enter a code every so often. If the guard is killed, the failsafe kicks in due to lack of code entry, and facility locks itself down.

Desmond may have actually PREVENTED the island from moving itself (in defense of potential assault) by turning the key ... the guard's function of entering the code cannot be automated, or the "facility failsafe" would be meaningless ... hence the need for "lab rats" to continuously punch in the code (i.e., the numbers).

Does this make any sense?

The only thing I have puzzled over is why the 108 minute period between code entry? ... I fall back to my long-held theory that the code entry had to be validated, or calibrated, to the passing of the polar-orbiting satellite TEMPSAT 1 ... the only satellite now orbiting the earth with an exactly 108-minute period.

#304. Posted by: ealgumby at June 2, 2008 7:58 PM

And BTW ... TEMPSAT 1 has been around since 1965 (i.e., DI era), and due to its altitude, suffers literally no altitude loss from drag effects (what brings low-altitude orbiting satellites down to Earth eventually, like Mir and Sky Lab) ... it has maintained almost the exact same altitude (or more properly, semi-major axis), and orbital period (108.0 minutes) since launch.

Also, there is NO other satellite in a 108-minute orbit ...

Don't know if I'm right about this theory, but sticking with it until proven otherwise ...

#305. Posted by: ealgumby at June 2, 2008 8:27 PM

@lovelost/299 TX!

#306. Posted by: ealgumby at June 2, 2008 8:56 PM

TPTB = Terrifying Polar-Type Bears

#307. Posted by: "old" Christine at June 2, 2008 9:45 PM

TPTB = Tunisian Parka Toasting Ben

→ 291. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
Dr. Marvin Candle a.k.a. Dr. Mark Wickmund a.k.a. Dr. Edgar Halliwax... what if he's actually three different people?

Don't forget his brother, Dr. Melton McDrip.

→ 287. Posted by: Mizzed re: Farrady's plight

He's a smart dude, despite the faux pas of wearing a tie on the beach. I'm sure he'll figure out how to get back to the island with a little tweak of his bearing. Or he'll goof and go too far back in time and meet Desmond, who becomes his constant. Sorry to bring up that other time-twister -- Desmond being Farrady's constant yet Farrady somehow not knowing it. Huh?

→ 298. Posted by: ealgumby re Post hoc ergo propter hoc -- "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one."

I've been trying to remember that phrase for as long as I've been posting here. I bet the writers chant that with evil glee as they map out the episodes each week and hope we'll draw conclusions based on the order in which the scenes are presented.

→ 286. Mr_Naysayer argued that the guy in the coffin is "an example of there being two different entities of the same original entity - like the two rabbits in the ComicCon Orchid Video."

Interesting idea and I would agree to a point. I don't think one rabbit became two rabbits; it was the same rabbit, but because of time traveling it briefly co-existed with itself. My request is -- to borrow a line from that old TV show "To Tell the Truth," later echoed by Eminem's Slim Shady -- will the real John Locke please stand up?

#308. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at June 2, 2008 10:42 PM

@ DK #90

A main character did die... Michael. They didn't say TWO main characters would die.

And Hoffs Drawler is not an anagram for flash forward.

FLESH forward maybe, which could be even more interesting as far as interpretations go.

#309. Posted by: Illusivemuse at June 2, 2008 11:05 PM

Best Vacc line:
"Growing weary of Locke's incessant questioning, Ben draws on his parenting skills - he sits Locke in front of the TV and pops in a video."

@callaway76/185: ANTS? Anybody notice the scarf?

#310. Posted by: hurling at June 2, 2008 11:07 PM

Just my two cents' worth here...

1) TPTB made an error in saying that everyone on the show can be explained by real-world facts/theories. Had they not said that, they could have invoked sci-fi/supernatural theories to explain some of the things we've seen. Smokey is a good example; I'm skeptical that it can ever be explained.

2) If there is no internal consistency to the show, it loses a lot of believability. If there is internal consistency—rules, if you will—I'll wonder how Character A will handle Situation B; I'm "in the world of the show." If there's no internal consistency—anything goes—I wonder what rabbits TPTB will pull out of their choco-hats to explain how Character A handles Situation B; I'm watching the show as an external observer rather than participating in the show. I hope I'm making this clear.

3) At this point my feeling is that the show is a ship w/too much superstructure & quite possibly not enough ballast to keep it from turning turtle. If LOST was a manuscript, my inner editor would be longing for a pen to cut out extraneous material...which, of course, quite possibly is someone else's essential plotline.

What I'd cut, just off the top of my head:

*The Sayid-Shannon hookup (not consistent w/Sayid's character...or Shannon's, for that matter)

*The four-toed statue (other than a generator for a large no. of jokes, what purpose has it served? & how can it be explained in a real-world fashion?)

*Colleen's funeral (does every Other get such an elaborate & time-consuming send-off?)

Anyway. I'm not giving up watching LOST, because I'm invested in the characters (some more than others) & want to find out what happens to them. Besides, I like hanging out here w/all of you!

#311. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 2, 2008 11:19 PM

Aw, thanks Cecil Rose. I once had a short lived blog about things I didn't "get" about Hawaii (from an East Coaster's perspective), with topics like "Why do people in Hawaii think the guy posing shirtless at the Abercrombie store at the Ala Moana Shopping Center is a person they should be getting an autograph from?" and "How is one supposed to merge onto a highway from a dead stop?!?" or "Why are SPAM and rice the two things you can serve with any meal?", but once I left the Island I gave it up.

If I did have a blog, in addition to directing people here to read Mac's reviews and our collected musings, and House fans to your reviews (sorry I've been absent, but I didn't catch House this season at all, I had to seriously cut back on my TV time, but I hope to catch up on the DVD's and will return when I can), I'd be imploring them to write-in Jacoby Ellsbury on their MLB All Star ballots. Dude deserves it so much more than Coco Crisp!

Also, I would use shorter sentences than I have in this post. ;)

And don't resist the Whoniverse. It's Harlan Ellison apporved!

#312. Posted by: FenwayBen at June 3, 2008 1:52 AM

Hi guys. Wow, what a ride!! Explosions end to end. Ben/Locke Jack/Locke convos, Hurley telling it like it is. Ben pushing a giant, frozen donkey wheel--never expected that. So much pushed, crammed and shoved into 84 final minutes.

Here's my Lost Thots:

So many people seemed to be disappointed in the finale. When the last scene faded to black, my first thought was &$&#!! What a great finale. Upon reflection, I realized I was, however, a little disappointed by the lack of character development. I wanted to see Michael Emerson really showing his chops while preparing (and pushing) the FDW.

I felt like I was watching a little robot doing its tasks, instead of a character we've come to love/hate struggle through his final moments on the island. Ben loves the island more than anything, I wanted to see that on his face and in his actions. However, I kept hearing the voices of Darlton saying that "instead of the high-octane storytelling you're used in Lost, you'll be getting super, titanium, high-octane storytelling" due to the lost of 2 episodes. (my own paraphrasing of Dalton quote, too lazy to go find it ;)

I was glad they left some minutes for the crushingly sad scene with Sun realizing her husband has just been blown into a ga-zillion pieces. And yes, I think he's dead. I could have skipped the whole Penny/Des kiss. Their relationship isn't interesting to me, but that's just me...

I realized much later that Jack couldn't tell the O6 the reason that they had to keep the island a secret was because if anyone knew about its "miracles" they'd come and turn it into Disneyland. But that's what I wanted him to say on the raft. I understand now that Jack is a man of science and won't believe in miracles until he eats a few hundred more oxycontins and downs a few more barrels of vodka.

About the "bad things": I keep coming back to the "lists." Good people, bad people. I think it's a major theme that we need to understand, and one that keeps me pondering who's on what list. I wonder if the lists keep changing, kinda like they do in real life, and as people change, so does their position on the lists.

I think this concept ties in with Smoky. Smoky's gotta be some sort of tool (?), reflection (?), personification (?) of good or bad. Yemi's appearance to Eko was "confirmed" as Smoky. Maybe Harper too. Is Smoky bad? good? What a great theme to ponder...for the next two years!

I also wanna point out that there's been some hints at zombies in our Lost future, mostly from Lost podcasts and various boards. I think we were introduced to them this season. I posit that Claire is an obvious zombie, maybe Christian too. Maybe Locke? Or maybe the Nikki/paolo epi wasn't such a one-off--think coma inducing spiders! Ok, that was a bit of red herring, but I'll leave it in there anyway.

You guys are so smart! So many posts to respond to, but I'll leave you with just this one from Alaïs_Longthought:

311 What I'd cut, just off the top of my head:

*The Sayid-Shannon hookup (not consistent w/Sayid's character...or Shannon's, for that matter)

Totally agree, purely eye-candy.

*The four-toed statue (other than a generator for a large no. of jokes, what purpose has it served? & how can it be explained in a real-world fashion?)

I don't know, there's gotta be a reason that's there. I gonna leave it on my personal list ;)

*Colleen's funeral (does every Other get such an elaborate & time-consuming send-off?)

Now THAT's interesting to me. See above zombie comments. I'm wondering if the Others burn their dead so they can't come back. Maybe death is totally different on the Island?

Anyway. I'm not giving up watching LOST, because I'm invested in the characters (some more than others) & want to find out what happens to them. Besides, I like hanging out here w/all of you!

Here, here! For me Lost IS the characters. Without them, we have a show that's too difficult to believe and/or follow. But we keep hanging in there because we wanna know how they turn out. We wanna know how they resolve their conflicts, how they grow and change.

And yes, a shout out to Mac's crowd (and Mac!) it's so much more fun to ride along with everyone!

#313. Posted by: En Provence at June 3, 2008 6:14 AM

304 - ealgumby
Imagine for example that you have control of some top-secret facility ... one easy way to "lock-down" the facility in the event of an assault, would be to have a "guard" or like individual enter a code every so often. If the guard is killed, the failsafe kicks in due to lack of code entry, and facility locks itself down.


You both miss my point and make my point at the same time. The point was in having the "lab rats" as I called them push the button. In your argument, note that you say the guards push the fail safe. Agreed. That would be fine.

Continuing that prison analogy, would you allow the prisoners to control the fail safe? Doesn't make much sense, does it?

Had the Dharmaites controlled the button it would have made perfect sense. Why would you leave a bunch on uncontrollable experimental subjects control your fate? Ealgumby, if there was a button which, if not pushed, would thrust you off into some unknown fate, would you want control of it or would you slip away downtown to some bar, find some guy passed out at the bar and give him the button?

#314. Posted by: Carl at June 3, 2008 9:54 AM

Here's something that has always bothered me. Obviously Ben and the Others knew about the hatch and the button being pushed, right? Wouldn't the all-knowing Ben also know that Desmond was in the hatch pushing the button? Wouldn't he have been aware of Desmond's boat? or, did he just not care? Wouldn't he also know that Desmond was in love with Penny Widmore? Wouldn't this make him curious enough to abduct Desmond?

Many questions, but no answers...

#315. Posted by: meg at June 3, 2008 10:33 AM

@Carl/314
"would you slip away downtown to some bar, find some guy passed out at the bar and give him the button?"

But I thought I already had the button? ;)

Point well-taken though ... didn't think of it that way.

@meg/315
"Here's something that has always bothered me. Obviously Ben and the Others knew about the hatch and the button being pushed, right?"

Together with Carl's point ... something doesn't add up ... ?

#316. Posted by: ealgumby at June 3, 2008 10:52 AM

On Ben and the Hatch:

Ben and the other other's didn't have a supprised look on their face's when they saw the hatch blow. It seemed as though they were witnessing an event they expected to see someday and were just watching it for the light show.

On John Locke in the coffin:

Since I like Locke's character on the show, I'm going to hope that he is still alive. If the Nikki and Paulo episode has any value, this would be the reason for giving us their information. Exept for the diamonds, the spider bite making someone appear to be dead is the only thing of value I remember taking out of their story.

#317. Posted by: DW at June 3, 2008 11:18 AM

I've been pondering the Ben vs. Widmore war and who is really "good". The following has me wondering.

1. In Desmond's travel back in time, Charles Widmore HELPED him twice. Once by leaving on the water and letting him know that time had passed, and two - giving him Penny's address. CW KNEW what was happening and could have very easily let Des get the nose bleed and go hoofs up.

2. I think CW helped Des because he knows that by him surviving that he would protect Penny at all costs. That means that CW knew of future events. ???

3. When Jack said 'Don't let them find you' to Des when he left, to whom was he referring? Widmore? I don't think so. He's on Penny's boat for crying out loud. That would mean he's hiding from Ben?

4. Ben is going crazy, which is scary considering how smart and manipulative he is. When will they have the Ben gets Alex flashback? Seems kinda vital.

5. I read about the Charlotte being Ben's daughter theory, but he SHOT her three times! As we've seen the lengths he goes to to protect his young'uns, I think this would be out of character.

6. If Charlotte was born on the island - wouldn't it be to one of the Dharma folks? Mom comes onto island preggers a la Claire? My money in on Goodspeed.

That's all. Where's my Zombie Ethan? I 'm a little sad that his fight scene with Jack was totally eclipsed by the Sayid/Keamy smack down.

#318. Posted by: EthansGrrl at June 3, 2008 11:45 AM

I have read up to 97 Clementine:@

Some excellent observations. I agree that Ben probably can return to the Island. If he couldn't, I'm pretty sure he would have bashed his own brains in with his death stick, right there in the desert. So I believe that it is physically (or maybe ghostly?) possible for him to return. However, Jacob or the Others as a group have banished him, so returning won't be easy.
Personally, I think the creature that poses as Christian is somehow conning everybody. My guess is that Jacob was the captain of the Black Rock. But the Jacob in the cabin is not the man from the ship. He was posessed by one part of the Island's essence, the light side. There were (human) beings before him that embodied this essence, perhaps even pre-dating the 4 toed folks. The dark side also has a human face, currently it's Christian. The human representatives of light and dark lead/use the other inhabitants on the Island for their own purposes. Light and dark clash regularly, given their different philosophies on what is best for 'the Island'.

Jacob is obviously being held captive. Christian is behind this. That's why Ben can't hear him anymore. He's not there. The thrashing about and the voice saying 'help me' was Christian. Either Ben and the Others don't know about all this, and Christian is an even bigger evil genius, or they do know about it and have been pretending they don't, so that Ben can plot some elaborate, awesome counter move.
Jacob(Light) has been calling most of the shots for a while and Christian(Dark), not happy with the way things were going (preparing and bringing more people to the Island, exposing it, etc) felt that it was his time to take over indefinitely. I can see it now. Jacob sitting in the chair, Christian at the door.
Jacob: Let me out of here, demon.
Christian, smiling: this is what the Island wants, Jacob.
Jacob, agitated: And what makes you think YOU know what the Island wants, better than I do?
Christian, menacing: Because you are in the circle of ash, and I am not..


Sorry, I always think I have lots of arguments at first, but end up speculating most of the time.

I'm gonna stop reading and posting theories next season. It's a really fun way to kill time, but it takes a lot of the surprise away from the actual show. It becomes more about which is gonna happen that what is gonna happen. Plus I do believe that the outcome of most current, unresolved issues that do not directly relate to the main-main plot are not written in stone yet, making it kind of pointless to theorize on them. So next season I'm going to stick to repeated viewings and quiet reflection on the subway to work.

I loved this season, definitely better than the last. And I loved reading the reviews and some of the posts here. So thanks for that, Mac and others.

Final thought: we will never learn the true nature or origin of the Island. We will come close, but truthfully, every explanation would be a dissapointment. It's better to keep that one box closed forever, so that our imagination can keep the wonder and mistery alive. Forever.

Namasté

#319. Posted by: Robislost at June 3, 2008 11:48 AM

→ 293. Posted by: Mizzed

LOL very creative! And I hope not an ounce of truth in it.

#320. Posted by: berkyo at June 3, 2008 11:59 AM

TPTB = Tea Pot Tempest Brewing
→ 295. Posted by: Cecil

Uh-oh. are you being funny or is there a long post coming up?
Could be both.

#321. Posted by: berkyo at June 3, 2008 12:01 PM

#313 you got me thinking about the way the others burn their dead so that they'll not be used by the island as zombies. Do you think thats what the ash is? It's the dead others who keep Jacob captive.

#322. Posted by: isalnder at June 3, 2008 12:05 PM

298. Posted by: ealgumby
That being said, we (the audience) are now faced with the problem of identifying “the solution” from a VERY large, but not infinite, number of possibilities. It’s now akin to a murder mystery ... we know all the suspects, but need to infer the solution from evidence provided.

We don't really know anything except what we have been told. We are little more than half way through the book. And we know the island least of all. Juat as Jack and Locke see different aspects of the island, they don't really know it.
Like the blind men and the elephant, we could be very wrong as to what it really is.

#323. Posted by: berkyo at June 3, 2008 12:19 PM

→ 309. Illusivemuse said "Hoffs Drawler is not an anagram for flash forward."

actually it is, because it is spelled Hoffs/Drawlar. TPTB already confirmed the anagram last season.

311. Alaïs_Longthought would cut "The Sayid-Shannon hookup (not consistent w/Sayid's character...or Shannon's, for that matter)"

I agree. I think the problem here is that three young actresses (Evangeline Lilly, Maggie Grace, and Emilie de Ravin) important to the plot were cast because they looked the part, but were later exposed as having severely limited acting range. All three are one-dimensional, one of the reasons why the episodes focusing on them have always been some of the least-compelling of the series.

I think the romance between Shannon and Sayid was an attempt to help Grace by pairing her with the always compelling Naveen Andrews, but the plot was a drag on his character and so they bumped her off.

Perhaps they're now trying to faze Claire out as well. If I was a Lost writer, I'd much rather work storylines for actresses like Elizabeth Mitchell and Yunjin Kim, who have far greater acting chops.

Alaïs_Longthought would also cut "The four-toed statue".

Not yet- I think the ancient civilization (Egyptians?) who lived on the island, as well as the Magnus Hanso/Black Rock story, will play key roles in the final reveal. Perhaps the island itself needs a flashback episode? :)

→ 315. meg asks "Wouldn't the all-knowing Ben also know that Desmond was in the hatch pushing the button?"

I contend that many apparent inconsistencies go away if you accept that Ben is not simpatico with the island/Jacob, but was actually working for his own purposes to get himself and the Oceanic 6 off the island.

→ 318. EthansGrrl writes "I read about the Charlotte being Ben's daughter theory, but he SHOT her three times!"

When Ben is threatened, he kills. See: Goodwin and Locke as examples a and b. Charlotte is apparently from the island and has some knowledge of events there, knowledge Ben does not want shared.

That leads to two questions:

1. Did Ben strictly act out of emotion in his attack on Keamy, or did he have an ulterior motive for wanting the freighter destroyed?

2. Just who are the people Ben is having Sayid kill?

#324. Posted by: Mizzed at June 3, 2008 12:27 PM

Also, there is NO other satellite in a 108-minute orbit ...

Don't know if I'm right about this theory, but sticking with it until proven otherwise ...
→ 305. Posted by: ealgumby

I think you are right. Makes sense.

#325. Posted by: berkyo at June 3, 2008 12:32 PM

And one final question to my last post:

What if Ben anticipated that by sending Alex, Rousseau and Karl into the jungle, it would be a convenient way for him to eliminate his rivals for Alex? Perhaps the "go to the temple" was merely a pretense?

What if Ben, in some indirect way, was actually using the mercenary team as part of a larger plot, a plot that Keamy was unaware of? Keamy changed the rules (altered the plan) when he unexepectedly killed Alex.

Even though Ben summoned Smokey to disburse the mercenaries, why were they not killed? We've seen the smoke monster throw Eko like a rag doll and tear the 815 pilot in half. Me thinks the phasers were set to stun....

#326. Posted by: Mizzed at June 3, 2008 12:40 PM


315 meg
Wouldn't the all-knowing Ben also know that Desmond was in the hatch pushing the button?

This has bothered me for a long time in my quest to find the good guys. If you don't want the island found - then push the button yourself to make sure. If you want the island to be found, then let somebody make a mistake.

#327. Posted by: berkyo at June 3, 2008 12:47 PM

#313 you got me thinking about the way the others burn their dead so that they'll not be used by the island as zombies. Do you think thats what the ash is? It's the dead others who keep Jacob captive.
→ 322. Posted by: isalnder

Cool idea! So if I assume the island/Jacob is good, then the others are bad?
I need to start sorting people into lists of my own..

#328. Posted by: berkyo at June 3, 2008 12:57 PM

@321 berkyo speculated:

>>TPTB = Tea Pot Tempest Brewing
>>→ 295. Posted by: Cecil

>Uh-oh. are you being funny or is there a long post coming up?
Could be both.

Just being silly.

Which doesn't mean there won't be a long post in the future, but no immediate plans.

#329. Posted by: Cecil at June 3, 2008 1:35 PM

→ 315 @ meg, (w/ Carl ealgumby, berkyo comments)

Here's something that has always bothered me. Obviously Ben and the Others knew about the hatch and the button being pushed, right?
>>> I don't think so. Ben did not know of Desmond's boat when the 815ers planned to rescue Jack-Kate-Sawyer at the ferry.

Wouldn't the all-knowing Ben also know that Desmond was in the hatch pushing the button?
>>> I don't know if Ben knew about the Hatch, since he was captured in the jungle. If I recall, Desmond had already fled the Hatch so Ben may not know of Desmond at all.

Wouldn't he have been aware of Desmond's boat?
>>> "Where did they get a boat?!" I believe Ben's quote was after the ferry assault failed.

Wouldn't he also know that Desmond was in love with Penny Widmore?
>>> In current island time, Penny had not seen Desmond since 1996 so there would be no apparent connection.

Wouldn't this make him curious enough to abduct Desmond?
>>>> No.

Many questions, but no answers...

>>>>how about circumstantial speculation?

I have been bothered by the The Other 48 Days story arc. When Ben saw the plane crash, he sent Goodwin to the tail section to prepare a list and report back to him in 3 days. However, the Tailies were terrorized by some group on the first night, and I believe Eko killed several the next night. (Again, we have a constance theme of time line issues). I don't think that initially the Tailies were attacked by Ben's Others. When Anna was taking the group through the jungle, they hid from them . . . who turned out to be a line of children (remember the last one with a teddy bear?). This led me to surmise a Lord of the Flies theme reference.

Once we get a good view of the barracks and Ben's Others, we find no children except Cindy and the 2 Tailies.

Hence, there may be actually two separate groups of Others. The island may have been divided at some point. Example, the sonic fence we assumed was to keep Smokey at bay, may have been made to keep the Other Others away. We have not seen this band of island children since.

Since we still don't know what the function of the Hatch was, we take what we were told "venting EM" to mean that it was important to release a build up of pressure to avoid a disaster. Just like the Nike missile defense system, two humans were required to turn the final launch keys. One would also think that there should have been a redundant station on the island serving the same purpose. The glyphs are seen both in the Hatch and the FDW.

If every 108 minutes was needed to vent EM in order to anchor the island from moving, once the fail safe key exploded the Hatch, the island would then be adrift (hence Daniel's 31 minute experiment). Possibility: the hatch being the parking brake, and the Wheel being the engine.

So I don't think Ben knows everything about the island. I think Ben thinks he knows everything, which is more dangerous.


#330. Posted by: welh at June 3, 2008 1:50 PM

→ 313. En Provence: See above zombie comments. I'm wondering if the Others burn their dead so they can't come back. Maybe death is totally different on the Island?"

The belief that corpses left intact above ground leads to restless spirits is an ancient belief found in most cultures until more recent, "rational" times.

This leads to another plot inconsistency that maybe isn't:

Why would the mercenaries take the time to bury Karl and Rousseau in shallow graves? It certainly wasn't out of sympathy or an effort to hide what they had done.

Could it be that they were following instructions, so that a certain someone would not be haunted by their vengeful spirits (or by whatever force is animating the other unburied bodies such as Yemi, Christian, Charley- and possibly, Claire)?

#331. Posted by: Mizzed at June 3, 2008 1:58 PM

@330 welh exposited:

>If every 108 minutes was needed to vent EM in order to anchor the island from moving, once the fail safe key exploded the Hatch, the island would then be adrift (hence Daniel's 31 minute experiment). Possibility: the hatch being the parking brake, and the Wheel being the engine.

Or once the failsafe key was turned, it neutralized the source of the energy that had to be 'vented', thus no nore 'venting' required but also no more resource. (explaining why they didn't do it earlier).

One theory I liked is that they had a mini-black hole down there behind the wall that slowly accumulated matter and had to be 'reset' in some fashion every 108 minutes.

The purple sky event wes the destruction of the black hole which, unleashed for a few moments grew enough to implode the hatch before being neutralized by some means. Means which I couldn't specify, but maybe Steven Hawking could.

>So I don't think Ben knows everything about the island. I think Ben thinks he knows everything, which is more dangerous.

I like to think that the original inhabitants of the hatch were the last of the Dharma initiative, plugging on because of the vital nature of their activities, and left unmolested by the the Others because of the difficulty of storming the hatch plus the knowledge that interrupting them could be dangerous. And eventually, of course, the odd recruit - Desmond.

#332. Posted by: Cecil at June 3, 2008 2:54 PM

Just an idea, but we never saw Faraday actualy get on the raft, so im thinking he might have stayed with miles, and wats-her-face

#333. Posted by: John at June 3, 2008 3:31 PM

Cecil,
You would think that the two military guys in the Hatch wouldn't be fooling around making the alarm "trip" in order to get the food drop if they were guarding an unstable black hole located behind their steel and concrete walls.

#334. Posted by: welh at June 3, 2008 4:13 PM

@@@@@@@@@


For those that didn't catch it, Farraday was shown basked in ultra-bright light on the raft when Ben made the island move. So either the raft is floating in the ocean still, or it was moved with the island... but if you rewatch the scene, he is there with a raft full of meatsocks.

@@@@@@@

#335. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at June 3, 2008 4:29 PM

→ 318. EthansGrrl: "In Desmond's travel back in time, Charles Widmore HELPED him twice."

Exactly right. By Widmore rejecting Desmond's attempts at marrying Penny, sponsoring the race, etc., he helped put Desmond exactly where he needed to be.

By giving Des Penny's number, he saved his life twice- both by estabishing his constant and by creating the means where Penny could rescue the Oceanic 6 with her boat. We are told that Des and Widmore are enemies, but we are shown something much different.

As a parting shot before we all leave this blog for the season, this leads nicely to my Big Theory of Lost (capitals required for extra-big ideas):

From TPTB's standpoint, Locke is us, a metaphor for the viewers.

He is literally pushed out of his chair at home, thrust into the beginnings of a mystery (the show's pilot) that will eventually end in death (the end of our relationship with the series, i.e. the final season).

Out of all the characters, he is the only one to respond exactly as a viewer would- by asking what it all means. While most of the Losties seem uninterested in the mysteries of the island and its inhabitants, Locke is the one poking his nose into the Dharma stations, interacting with Ben and the others, staring at the smoke monster while everyone else runs away.

He is driven by the belief that it all has to add up- that there really is a meaning. He is the only original character that doesn't want to go home (i.e. end the story). He looks wide-eyed at anything and everything, looking for meaning and importance everywhere (can anyone say high res screencaps?).

Because he can't put it all together, he gets confused and frustrated and sometimes feels cheated or manipulated. He wants to sit down, put a Dharma video into the tv, and have it all neatly explained to him.

And here's his (and our) fatal flaw: he so badly wants to figure it all out, that he routinely believes that what he is told is true (see: his father, Ben, "Christian", the orientation videos, etc).

Viewers get frustrated with Lost because they expect answers will be revealed using traditional storytelling techniques- characters interact, information is given, viewers learn something, mystery eventually gets solved.

The writers know this, and are using it to their advantage to confuse us and to extend and deepen the mystery. So here's Mizzed's Skeleton Key to continue enjoying Lost while minimizing your frustration:

1. Believe in almost everything you are shown.
2. Doubt almost everything you are told.

Almost every character in the show is lying, hiding some secret, or in some state of denial. Ignore the dialogue- it is deliberately misleading, the equivalent of a undecipherable whispers in the forest or a backwards voice on a phone call.

When facts and explanations seem to contradict, follow the trail of character actions and the things you have actually seen with your own eyes.

I could give you countless examples of this key in action, but the post would be too long.

Follow the key and gain your sanity back....oh, and have a good summer.

#336. Posted by: Mizzed at June 3, 2008 4:35 PM

@334 welh hypothesized:

>You would think that the two military guys in the Hatch wouldn't be fooling around making the alarm "trip" in order to get the food drop if they were guarding an unstable black hole located behind their steel and concrete walls.

1) Why not? WHat else have they got to do?

2) My impression wasn't that the lockdown created the food drop, but rather the other way around - the food drop triggered the lockdown.

The earlier occupant, whose name I forget, learned how to trigger the lockdown himself, and used it to be able to draw the map of his explorations in a place and manner that the others - who by now were in possession of the flame(?) station and thus could peek in on their activities - could not observe.

3) And they may not have been aware of just what they were guarding - just sure, as was passed down to each subsequent guardian, that they were "saving the world" by doing so. Unclear whether "the world" meant the whole earth, or their island.

#337. Posted by: Cecil at June 3, 2008 4:39 PM

re: "Hurley can't get in the raft... Hurley's not a very good swimmer".
=============
You don't need to be a good swimmer miles from the shore (not 'Miles' from the freighter)... you just need to be a good floater. Hurley in salt water? Sounds like a second raft, in case anyone wants to hop on. Survival rafts like the one in the episode have "boarding ladders". Nylon web ladders that hang well below the water line so people can climb aboard.
google it -
[ "survival raft", ladder, boarding ]

#338. Posted by: MorBid0 at June 3, 2008 6:00 PM

TPTB - Tunsaian Pickles Talk (to) Ben

@ meg - 315
"Wouldn't he have been aware of Desmond's boat?"

He was aware of Desmond's boat. Remember, that was his explination to Sayid of "how" he got off the island?

By the way, that was obviously the first time that any of the O6 saw Ben off the island.

I was going to go somewhere with that thought, but it toally just slipped my mind. Rats.

@ DW - 317
I'm sorry this is a bit random, but -- your name makes me want to watch Arthur. I miss that show. It was so... pre-school. =] Haha.

Yeah no more time... break's over!!! Back to my crap-load of homework.

#339. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 3, 2008 6:10 PM

#339 so smart! He does indeed know who Desmond is but I'm not sure if he ever met him. Good recall though about Ben using his boat.It's great to have so many people to recall these things.

#340. Posted by: islander at June 3, 2008 6:49 PM

NASA has an interesting picture of Mars. Four toed creature or man-made?

tinyurl.com/5ulxvd

#341. Posted by: DW at June 3, 2008 7:11 PM

336. Posted by: Mizzed - wow! so true. of course one can assume that locke's curiousity pretty much started from the minute he found himself on the island. i know i would be very, very curious if i was suddenly able to walk! hate to admit it, but i am not clear on who all knows about that. do the 06? ben?

#342. Posted by: surefoot at June 3, 2008 7:50 PM

If you haven't already, you should take a look at the site advertised in the brief commercial near the end of the finale.

www.octagonglobalrecruiting.com

The site claims to be advertising the recruiting drive in San Diego On July 24-27 "on behalf of the Dharma Initiative" for a number of "unpaid volunteers" in a variety of specialties. A fast scroll lists such items as:

Health Care Workers
Engineers
Janitors
Ex-Military
Astrophysicists
Biologists
Icthyologists
Drivers
Vets
IVF Experts
Immunologists
Nurses

You get the idea. They offer to take your email address to "register your interest".

Like all Lost Experience websites, the Octagon website contains real (and boring) "Terms and Conditions" and "Privacy Policy" links that are doubtless required by the Disney legal department even in these kind of mock reality websites.

Is this a second Lost Experience starting up? I doubt it. July 24-27 just happen to the the dates of the 2008 San Diego Comic Con. For those of you not aware of it, Comic Con is a *huge* convention loosely associated with Comics in all their forms (125,000 attenders last year).

"Lost" has had a relationship with it for some time, for instance having appearances by 'Rachel Blake' at a "Lost" presentation in 2006 during the Lost Experience. And last year they premiered the Orchid Video there (although, as we have just seen, in a different form from the Orchid video seen on the show).

So, I'm guessing, the Octagon ad is a clever advertisement for their latest Comic Con appearance. The Comic Con website:

www.comic-con.org

has no information about a "Lost" presentation, but then it has no informaton on 2008 programming at all yet.

If I still lived in California, I'd defininitely plan to attend.

#343. Posted by: Cecil at June 3, 2008 8:08 PM

@ surefoot - 342
"i know i would be very, very curious if i was suddenly able to walk! hate to admit it, but i am not clear on who all knows about that. do the 06? ben?"

People who know about Locke's Paralysis:
1. Walt
-- Locke told him randomly when he was teaching him how to play backgammon in the first season... not sure what episode. Walt almost told Michael.

2. Ben
-- When Locke, Sayid, and Kate went to go get Jack from the Barracks in S3, Locke went to Ben's house (after the surgery) and he asked him how it felt. That's when he told Locke that he knew everything... he knew that he was in a wheelchair before the crash, and that now he can walk. He said he also knows how he ended up in it. He told him that he knew his father conned him into stealing his kidney, and then he threw him 8 stories out of a building and he landed on his spine.

Locke: The Man from Tallahassee? What is that some kind of code?
Ben: No John, unfortunately we don't have a code for "there is a man in my closet holding a gun to my daughter's head". Although we obviously should.

... that was such a great line.

3. Rose
-- She mentioned to him that she and he know how special the island is since they both experienced miracles. She saw him get on the plane/in the airport with a wheelchair before the crash; her cancer went away.

I think they're the only three that formally know about Locke's paralysis. I'm sure the others know. I'm pretty sure Richard knows... I guess he'd make 4, but probably all the other others know too. Maybe not all of them, but some of them.

Rose and Bernard have to be significant. Bernard knows everything about everything somehow, and Rose also has a connection to the island like Locke does... he just takes initiative with it. I guess that's when curiosity comes into play.

Ugh... more homework.

#344. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 3, 2008 8:13 PM

Been trying to catch up but they're soo many posts. It's going to be a long off season, let's pace ourselves people!Sorry if this has been said before.

-GR VACC kudos.

-I'm with those that think that Locke has left the island intentionally so that he can return as a corpse & obtain extra-super-hyper obi wan island master powers like Christian. Remember that Alpert has been "recruiting" Locke since infancy.

-Where did we get the idea that Charlotte was born on the island? Is that canon or just speculation that's been carried on? I got the impression that the scientists have been on the island before. Remember when Faraday conducts his projectile experiment & It takes longer to reach the island than expected. He says' "It's getting worse". That implies he's done this before.

-What about the polar bear skeleton that Charlotte found in the desert? We saw Ben land in the desert after moving the island so does that mean that there was a polar bear in the donkey wheel room when the island was moved at some time? Or did they get tired of teleporting bunnies & try it with a polar bear?

-Did they paint a number on the side of the polar bear? But seriously, we never saw what happened on the island after it moved. What if the island gets "wiped clean" when it's moved? All inhabitants end up somewhere (sometime) else & it's up to them to get back to the island. Ref: Miles's talk with Charlotte, "After all you went thru to get back here, I'm surprised that you want to leave".

-There is destiny, fate, a master plan:
Jeweler to Desmond- "No! You're not supposed to buy the ring." The return of the O6 (to normal society) has upset the balance.

One last thing. I've been doing the cut&paste into a word doc since day 1. It's a great way to read what's on the web page without keeping your internet connection open for hours. If your internet police at work are anything like here, that's huge! It also lets you catch up when you don't have any access to the web, like on that train commute home or in the car pool. Rememnber freiends don't let friends blog & drive.

#345. Posted by: cookie at June 3, 2008 8:18 PM

→ 336. Posted by: Mizzed

Excellent post, second only to that one by Clementine at -436 in TNPLH, Part I.

And who says we are leaving this blog for the season??? Maybe you just meant YOU are leaving?

Is everyone staying here or moving to the Random Topics section? I need to know where to get my fix.

#346. Posted by: lovelost at June 3, 2008 8:20 PM

@ lovelost - 346
"Is everyone staying here or moving to the Random Topics section? I need to know where to get my fix."

I'm going where ever everyone else is going. Lol.

I think Mac might make a new Random Topic Thread (Summer '08 Edition).

#347. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 3, 2008 9:22 PM

→ 343. Posted by: Cecil regarding Lost and Comic Con connections

That's interesting, because I just read something about how M. Night Shyamalan and the Disney folks had a disagreement over how to market "Unbreakable" -- as a comic-book movie about an unlikely superhero or a spooky thriller like "The Sixth Sense." I'd be relieved and happily suspend disbelief at some of the goings on if Lost turned out to be in the comic book genre.

#348. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at June 3, 2008 9:30 PM

TPTB = Teleportation Portends Time Breakdown

#349. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at June 3, 2008 9:32 PM

Maybe Bens 'The Rules Have CHANGED' was also a message to fans. Next thing you know we'll be in purgatory or wake up from a dream. NOOOOOOO!

I think Charlotte was born on the island. Her look when she landed, comments with Miles(well, I SAW them have that conversation). Ben in his man on the boat spiel said she was born in England. But we have all agreed "believe what you see - not what you hear"

#350. Posted by: mtncbn at June 3, 2008 9:36 PM

→ 336. Mizzed:

Um, well...no, not necessarily.

1) If Charles & Desmond are not enemies, I'm reminded of the line "With friends like these, who needs enemies?" We see Charles demolish Desmond's self-confidence when Des visits Charles to ask for his blessing of Des's & Penny's marriage. And if Charles wants Des to end up pushing the button every 108 minutes on an island in the South Pacific, he's going about it in a very convoluted way. First, antagonize the person whose help you need. Then, maneuver them into deciding to join in on a sailing race around the world that just coincidentally puts the person in the exact right spot to be hit w/a storm to just coincidentally crash them onto Île de Mystère. Doesn't that seem somewhat convoluted & w/a lot of potential for multiple miscarriages of the plan? Seems like it would have been a lot simpler (Occam's Razor) to enlist Desmond w/a high-up position in Widmore Industries, à la Jin w/Paik Industries. And as far as Charles helping Desmond by giving him Penny's number, it's just as likely that Charles meant it maliciously, expecting that Penny would blast Desmond & refuse to listen to him. From what we've been shown thus far, Charles & Penny are not working together & indeed appear to be working at cross-purposes. Charles does not want Penny w/Desmond; Penny wants to be w/Desmond.

2) Locke as a metaphor for viewers? I don't think so, at least not for all viewers. Based on his past life & personality, of course his on-island actions & desire to figure out what it all means make sense...to him. He's wanted to be a leader, someone looked up to, for years. Now he is exactly that (at least initially), plus he's miraculously been cured of paralysis. But if I were Claire, for example, as the days went by w/o rescue, I'd be worried about giving birth in a primitive place, & after the birth, how I'd feed the baby, not wanting to go out exploring what has been seen to be a potentially hostile environment. I think a similar case could be made for nearly all of the Lostaways. They're thinking of how to get off the island, not stay on the island, & digging out mysterious "breadboxes" in the jungle, following visions, & building sweatlodges aren't exactly actions that advance the cause of getting off the island.

3) Just my opinion, but the statements "Believe in almost everything you are shown & "Doubt almost everything you are told" could just as easily be stood on their respective heads. To use the most egregious example, we were shown all season long that there was some sort of time differential between the island & the freighter...yet in the finale the time differential was suddenly & totally ignored. And while all the characters have secrets & have told lies, watching LOST as a silent movie so that we're "ignoring the dialogue" is, I think, a bit extreme.

I don't expect LOST to unfold like a straightforward Nancy Drew mystery or even use "traditional storytelling techniques." I can deal w/secrets & lies, misleading events & statements, layers upon layers of meaning, hidden mysteries that only gradually come to light, & game-changing reveals. Those all make the show fun & challenging. But when TPTB change the framework of the world they've made—i.e., break the rules that they themselves wrote—because they've written themselves into a corner, like Cecil Rose in #265 (quoted below), I end up w/a case of "epistemological anxiety."

"Without a frame of reference, the viewers experience epistemological anxiety, doubting even their most basic assumptions about the world the characters live in."

#351. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 3, 2008 10:34 PM

Oh yeah...here we go. Just a couple tid-bits before I get to the serious stuff:

-Penny SOOOOO has a massive SCARF on and I'm afraid that I now hate her for stealing one of the shows most infamous trademarks. Love ya Cindy!! Fax me anytime!

-TPTB: I was completely convinced that it stood for 'The Pan Trom Ballahassee'

-@ Cecil Rose: regarding Octagonglobalrecruiting.cizzom...if you take a look at the total list of jobs, then read from the bottom up, take the 1st letter of each job and what does it spell?....that's right...Dharma Initiative. Sweet!

And now for some meat:

#1: When Locke tries to convice Jack to stay on the island (when they are above the Orchid), Jack refuses. Ben then shows up and tells Jack to take Sawyer and Hurley and get to the helicopter immediately & that they should be off the island within the hour.

-Why in the hell would Ben have a different agenda than Locke? Wouldn't Ben know (since he always has a plan) the eventual consequences and that the O6 (+ Bentham & he) would all have to go back to the island? WTF?!?!?

(I keep getting the feeling that Ben is Phil Connors and that this entire show is his Groundhog Day. He's already been through this so many times and that's why he 'always has a plan'....because he's gone through so many trials that he knows what will happen next. And if the end of the show has him waking up in his bed and I hear an alarm clock start up with 'And put your little hand in mine...', I'll just croak.)

#2: After the Claire dream, why does Kate say 'I'm sorry...I'm sorry' to Aaron? Can you say diaper-rash? I suggest Budreaux's Buttpaste!!

And lastly...
#3: Even though the O6 lie about the entire story, how do they and/or Oceanic explain finding all 324 bodies under the water in the plane wreckage? Shouldn't there be 316 bodies in the wreckage? O6 (minus unborn Aaron) + Boone, Charlie & Libby would not be under water....right?

Wow...I was very impressed with the finale. And also pleased to see some great discussion following a detailed and excellent 'pinch-hitting' recap by vacc. Try to say that 5 times in a row...Recap by vacc, Recap by vacc, Recap by vacc, Recap by vacc, Recap by vacc. Hope some of these comments are as intriguing to ya'll as they are to me. Oh yeah...one last thing...RNMiL!!!

#352. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at June 3, 2008 11:39 PM

@@@@@@@@@

Speaking of "UNBREAKABLE" - if you haven't seen it, go rent it... quiet, slow moving movie - but AWESOME.

Then hurry out and rent "BIG LEBOWSKI." One of the greatest movies EVER. Quotes for days.

Then, go rent or buy all of the LOST episodes, and you'll summer viewing will be complete.

And that's all I have to say about thhaaaat.

@@@@@@@@

#353. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at June 3, 2008 11:46 PM

Alaïs_Longthought:

no offense, but you've completely misunderstood the point of my message. In respsonse to your three points:

1. We have repeatedly been shown that the characters involved are predestined for specific roles to play. Desmond had to be on that island to set in motion the events that caused 815 to crash.

Your interpretations of Widmore's reasons for the way he acted towards Desmond are merely that, your interpretations. While none of us currently know his motivations, we can say with assurance that his actions contributed to a series of events that led Desmond to that island.

Suggesting that Widmore could have chosen a different, or streamlined course of action to get Desmond there is irrelevant, because the end result- Desmond on the island- is what was achieved.

2. Forget the specifics of Locke's character- middle-aged, formerly disabled white man, because I wasn't comparing his personality or appearance to a typical viewer.

You've confused identifying with a character, such as the example you used with Claire, with my point of Locke being used by the writers as a metaphor representing the viewers point of view (i.e. searching to unlock the mysteries of the island).

He is the only character trying to piece together the various pieces of the puzzle, just as we do. The answers are elusive and at times the search becomes frustrating, as it does for us.

I believe the entire scene in the Orchid, with Locke peppering Ben with questions until he finally tells him to just watch the video, was a tongue in cheek reference to Lost fans who look for significance in every detail, ask unlimited questions, and finally, just wish the writers would provide some clear answers.

3. I think you and others have made too much of the time-differential thing in the season finale. Would it have made you feel better if each time the Zodiac washed up on the beach, a character had come up and said "wow, that trip took you 31 minutes longer than you thought it did!"

The writers needed to compress a tremendous amount of events within a limited time frame. They no doubt felt they had already addressed that 1. if you used a compass and followed the correct heading, you would make it back and forth safely, and 2. if you did not follow the correct heading, bad things would happen up to and including death. There must have been at least a half dozen references to the heading in the preceding episodes. How many times did it have to be said?

Finally, suggesting that I recommended watching Lost as a silent movie is stretching my original point to such an extreme, I think I heard a snapping sound when I first read it.

My point was we are being led astray in our conceptions of what is "true" by the writers consistently using the technique of unreliable narrators who are lying to other characters for their own purposes.

But because television is a visual medium, and the story must be advanced, they cannot use the same misinformation techniques with what we are shown. We see things in the same way and at the same time that the characters see them, with no layer of interpretation in between. The alternative is to suggest that we are seeing dreams or hallucinations, which TPTB have consistently refuted in numerous interviews.

#354. Posted by: Mizzed at June 4, 2008 12:11 AM

catbarf@194:
I agree with your observation that Locke might be getting "played for his kidney".

And with this too: "I predict that in the series finale, Ben will pull the absolute cruelest of long cons on somebody/everybody, which will result in maximum benefit for whoever is left... if that makes any sense."

There is a reason we were introduced to the concept of "the long con" way back when.

Ben "always has a plan."

#355. Posted by: undaunted at June 4, 2008 12:25 AM

So we've got;

Charles Widmore
Charlotte C Lewis
Charlie Pace

Don't think this means anything, just thought I'd point it out.

#356. Posted by: AC at June 4, 2008 5:26 AM

Glad to see everyone's still here. I was scared in the beginning when the posts were really coming in slowly. Big sigh of relief. I need you guys!

Lost Thots:

→ 322. isalnder
#313 you got me thinking about the way the others burn their dead so that
they'll not be used by the island as zombies. Do you think thats what the ash
is? It's the dead others who keep Jacob captive.

*I don't know what the heck the ash circle is supposed to be. What a weird
thing to put in our bulging bag of mysteries. It's funny that we have two
known "security fences" the sonic fence, and this ash circle. We certainly
seem to have a lot of somewhat sentient beings floating around; Smoky, the
Whispers, apparitions and ghosts. I make a distinction b/t apparitions and
ghosts to mean, apparitions are non-human, Kate's horse and backwards talking Walt, Dave (who's a figment of Hurley's imagination--as far as we know) and ghosts like Yemi, Christian, Goodspeed, Charlie and Harper(?).

We've got an awful lot of improperly buried dead people on the island; Rouseau and Carl, Paolo/Nikki, an open grave full of dead Dharmites, Christian's empty coffin and Yemi, to name a few. So far, Libby's the only properly buried ghost who's made an appearance. I don't know what to make of this. Anyone have any ideas? I think we'll be seeing more of what I'm gonna call, "zombies" in the next 2 seasons.

→ 331. Mizzed
Why would the mercenaries take the time to bury Karl and Rousseau in shallow
graves? It certainly wasn't out of sympathy or an effort to hide what they had done.

Could it be that they were following instructions, so that a certain someone
would not be haunted by their vengeful spirits (or by whatever force is
animating the other unburied bodies such as Yemi, Christian, Charley- and
possibly, Claire)?

*I chocked the shallow buried Rouseau and Carl up to dramatic license, but I
could be wrong. I thought it was out of character for the mercenaries to stop,
get out their shovels and bury those two. Why would they do that? To cover
their tracks? Weird.

→ 336. Posted by: Mizzed
Follow the key and gain your sanity back....oh, and have a good summer.

*I really like your analysis! Are you an English major like me? I think you're right on. And the fact that Locke is a man of faith is telling us, the viewers to have faith in the show.

→ 351. Alaïs_Longthought
watching LOST as a silent movie so that we're "ignoring the dialogue" is, I think, a bit extreme.

*Au contraire ma belle amie ! I think it's a great idea. What a way to re-watch the first 4 seasons. I wonder what it would be like? I think I'm gonna try it. Anyone else with me? A fun summer getaway. Why not? We might find something.

→ 352. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man
-Why in the hell would Ben have a different agenda than Locke? Wouldn't Ben know (since he always has a plan) the eventual consequences and that the O6 (+ Bentham & he) would all have to go back to the island? WTF?!?!?

*I'm with you RNMiL! I'm so confused about Ben's actions. Especially the
button pushing and allowing the O6 off the Island.

And lastly...
#3: Even though the O6 lie about the entire story, how do they and/or Oceanic
explain finding all 324 bodies under the water in the plane wreckage? Shouldn't
there be 316 bodies in the wreckage? O6 (minus unborn Aaron) + Boone, Charlie &
Libby would not be under water....right?

*There are so many holes in this cover-up it's got to be addressed. Why would Jack say they crashed in the Pacific Ocean? How can a 3 month old baby be passed off as 6 weeks? How could a pregnant Kate be the "hero" who saved everyone?

Wow...I was very impressed with the finale. And also pleased to see some great discussion following a detailed and excellent 'pinch-hitting' recap by vacc.

*Me too! God I love this show AND this blog!

→ 354. Posted by: Mizzed
Finally, suggesting that I recommended watching Lost as a silent movie is
stretching my original point to such an extreme, I think I heard a snapping
sound when I first read it.

*Hey guys, we're all friends here. I like both of your analyses. =)

And some closing Lost Thots:

I'm wanting to belabor the whole button pushing thing. For me this a big WTF?
I like that we got to have a uber-secret map of the Island for our
screencapping pleasure, but the whole concept doesn't make sense to me. Why,
indeed, would Ben and everyone else leave the button pushing to these two
isolated crazy guys? Why would Ben let Locke decide not to push the button and
blow Desmond's clothes away? (not really complaining). The EMA wiped out all
of Ben's communications systems. Why would he do that?

Because of the Flame station monitoring all the other stations, and Ben's
watching of them, I gotta chime in on the Bentham theory. If you look him up on Lostpedia you get a link to The Panopticon, "The Panopticon is a type of prison building designed by English philosopher Jeremy Bentham in 1785. The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell whether they are being watched, thereby conveying what one architect has called the "sentiment of an invisible omniscience. Bentham himself described the Panopticon as 'a new mode of obtaining power of mind over mind, in a quantity hitherto without example.'"

Wow, I hope we're not going into a Truman Show! Anyone else pick up on this? And what do you think about it? At first I dismissed it, thinking it was random information. But in light of all the inconsistencies surrounding Ben's plan, the button, the EMA that looked a lot like moving the Island, I'm giving it some more thot.

Thanks guys! Hey soon, I'll be in the States for the summer. Planning for culture shock and coffee in paper take out cups.

#357. Posted by: En Provence at June 4, 2008 7:07 AM

Grrrr. Sorry for the terrible formatting in above post. That's what I get for cutting and pasting from Notepad. Wish I could go back in time for a couple of minutes!)

#358. Posted by: En Provence at June 4, 2008 7:10 AM

@cookie - 345
If your internet police at work are anything like here, that's huge!

WOW, sometimes the simplest things we overlook. Thanks!

#359. Posted by: bean116 at June 4, 2008 8:46 AM

→ 354. Mizzed:

Wow...what we have here is a major failure to communicate. Let's try again.

1) In response to your statement in #354, "Your interpretations of Widmore's reasons for the way he acted towards Desmond are merely that, your interpretations": Well, yes, what I said is "merely" my interpretation, for which I supplied what I think is supporting evidence. Your original statement in #336, which was "We are told that Des and Widmore are enemies, but we are shown something much different," is your interpretation. Yes, Charles's actions may have been what "helped put Desmond exactly where he needed to be" (from your post #336). But was it inadvertent—by chance only—or deliberately planned? We don't know, because as you've said, we don't know Charles's motivations, but if I were Charles & wanted to ensure that Desmond would end up pushing a button on a South Pacific Island, I would choose a plan to get him there that had a much higher probability of succeeding per my post #351. In any case, in my opinion, whether Charles orchestrated Desmond's journey to the island or not is irrelevant to the question of whether Charles & Desmond are enemies or not. Just our separate opinions.

2) In response to your statement in #354, "Forget the specifics of Locke's character- middle-aged, formerly disabled white man, because I wasn't comparing his personality or appearance to a typical viewer. You've confused identifying with a character, such as the example you used with Claire, with my point of Locke being used by the writers as a metaphor representing the viewers point of view (i.e. searching to unlock the mysteries of the island)": My apologies for conflating your idea of Locke as a metaphor for viewers w/your following statement, also in #336: "Out of all the characters, he is the only one to respond exactly as a viewer would- by asking what it all means. While most of the Losties seem uninterested in the mysteries of the island and its inhabitants, Locke is the one poking his nose into the Dharma stations, interacting with Ben and the others, staring at the smoke monster while everyone else runs away."

W/regard to the second statement first, in my opinion, the Lostaway characters are reacting in accordance w/their varying personalities. I used Claire as a comparison to Locke as an example. W/regard to the first statement, I agree that we as viewers are like Locke in trying to figure out what it all means, as far as the example of "just wish[ing] the writers would provide some clear answers" (your post #354) &" Because he can't put it all together, he gets confused and frustrated and sometimes feels cheated or manipulated. He wants to sit down, put a Dharma video into the tv, and have it all neatly explained to him" (your post #336). Speaking just for myself, I don't want to have it all neatly explained to me; I like figuring it out. My issue w/TPTB is that once something has been established as fundamentally important, it should be adhered to for consistency & believability (see my post #311, second point). Just my opinion.

3) In response to your statement in #354: " I think you and others have made too much of the time-differential thing in the season finale": See the last sentence of the previous paragraph. Just to reiterate, I'm using the disappearance of "the time-differential thing" as a recent example of a less-than-believable plot twist, done for the convenience for TPTB. As other posters have commented, we tend to notice what we have a greater knowledge of; I believe it was lostinVT who commented on noticing lack of accuracy in medical issues & welh who notices the lack of accuracy in legal matters (Kate's trial specifically). The discarding of the time-differential difference doesn't bother you; it bothers me because in my opinion, it makes LOST less believable & therefore less compelling.

4) In response to your statement in #354: "Finally, suggesting that I recommended watching Lost as a silent movie is stretching my original point to such an extreme, I think I heard a snapping sound when I first read it": My apologies for offending you. My use of the silent movie metaphor was intended to be a humorous statement on your original statements in #336 of "Ignore the dialogue- it is deliberately misleading..." & "Doubt almost everything you are told." In my opinion, while television is a visual medium, it's not possible to ignore the aural component. I agree w/your point as stated in #354: "My point was we are being led astray in our conceptions of what is 'true' by the writers consistently using the technique of unreliable narrators who are lying to other characters for their own purposes."

In the end, you have your opinions; I have mine. At this point, neither can be established as fact...unless, of course, you're one of TPTB—in which case there are a lot of people here who have lots of questions for you! ; )

#360. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 4, 2008 10:26 AM

@352 Red...Neck...Man pointed out:

>-@ Cecil Rose: regarding >Octagonglobalrecruiting.cizzom...if you take a look at the total list of jobs, then read from the bottom up, take the 1st letter of each job and what does it spell?....that's right...Dharma Initiative. Sweet!

And the letters after that are:

"ealgumby"!


#361. Posted by: Cecil at June 4, 2008 11:05 AM

Something must be wrong . . . On my computer those letters spell:


NIIVDIBAEJEH

which, of course, transliterate to . . .

Wait a minute. Wasn’t this the name of one of bad kings in Deuteronomy?

I’m so confused.

#362. Posted by: davidrh at June 4, 2008 11:33 AM

The actual next letters after DHARMAINITIATIVE (beginning with Ex Military and working backward) are:

EABEJNCHDBEBMPZPP

OK, I challenge someone to make something out of that.

(I so wanted there to be some further intelligence in the message - when I got "E" and "A" my hopes were up, but it made a good hoax.)

#363. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 4, 2008 12:25 PM

I don't think this has ever been asked: Who were Karl's parents?

#364. Posted by: Len at June 4, 2008 1:09 PM

re: 364. I don't think this has ever been asked: Who were Karl's parents?
===============
I think the topic may have been touched on briefly before. Assumptions included that he was an orphaned tot following the Purge or that he arrived after that with some of the new-hires (Mikhail and Co.). My position is that he is a product of the fertility issue... not saying who the donor father was, but young Karl certainly did have big bugged eyes at times.

Hence Ben's desire to keep Karl and Alex from mixing genes... and not wanting to see any four-toed grand-kids running around....

#365. Posted by: MorBid0 at June 4, 2008 1:46 PM

J.Wood finally posted his LOST summary.
It is for LOST PhD's.
The comments are good too.

www.powells.com/blog/?p=3350#more-3350

#366. Posted by: ANON2 at June 4, 2008 2:20 PM

Sorry if this has already been discussed. I am somewhat new and only got halfway through the posts.

But, has anyone discussed the importance of the name Abbadon? In Wikipedia it basically states that he is believed by some to be Satan or the Antichrist. It can also refer to a "place of destruction", or the realm of the dead.
Interesting!?

#367. Posted by: Lets_Get_LOST at June 4, 2008 2:37 PM

Alaïs_Longthought: "Wow...what we have here is a major failure to communicate."

Yes, but I think we're getting closer.

I actually don't have an "interpretation" on whether Widmore loves Des or hates him, whether he wants to help or hinder him. I suspect the viewers have been positioned to believe that they are in fact, enemies.

But I know that Widmore's actions DID put Des on his road, and DID save his life- hence, I prioritize the actions, while I diminish the truth of the "dialogue".

As an example, in "The Constant", we are told that the Black Rock went missing in 1845 on a trading voyage to Siam. But we have already seen the Black Rock in the "Exodus" episodes, and we know that it contained slaves, mining equipment, and dynamite, which was not invented until the 1860's.

It's contradictory, but by following the visual evidence we can at least hypothesize that Magnus Hanso discovered the special properties of the island, was trying to mine and exploit those resources, and cooked up a resultant cover story.

More recently, Christian told Locke to move the island on orders from Jacob, Ben told Locke and the other Losties that the mercenaries will kill everyone, and Ben told Locke that the turning of the wheel was a last second act of desperation to "save the island", resulting in Ben's permanent exile.

Locke certainly believed all of that- he even killed Naomi to try and prevent the intial freighter contact. I suspect that most viewers accepted those arguments as well, and that it set up their frame of reference for the last few epis of the season.

However, when we actually watched the last episodes, we saw many inconsistencies and contradictions that should at least make us suspicious of the real purpose of the freighter's mission, the real necessity of moving the island, and whether Ben's exile was an unavoidable result of saving the island or actually part of a pre-meditated plan.

If we were to go back to season one and rewatch all the episodes, we would see the same repetitive pattern:

*we (often via Locke) are told information about the island
*we form theories based on that information
*our theories are proven wrong when we find later that the original information was false and misleading
*we realize (after the fact) that we were shown correct clues along the way which we disregarded because they seemed counter-intuitive or contradictory when first presented.

#368. Posted by: Mizzed at June 4, 2008 2:54 PM

***********SPOILERS**********


Some really big technical holes in the action, almost as bad as "24."

First, the radio strapped to Keamy that sets off the C4 when his heartbeat stops. How does that radio get a signal out from so far underground that Ben can't even estimate? Ridiculous. And why doesn't Locke transfer it from Keamy to himself when Keamy is expiring?


Second, the C4 squad on the boat won't detach the car battery because that will set off the explosives (which would be true only if there was either a second battery or charged capacitors present). But freezing the battery with liquid nitrogen, which slows its chemical reaction, will delay triggering the C4. How are those two states different? Disconnecting the battery, or substantially reducing its voltage, really amounts to the same thing. At least the cliched countdown timer wasn't present (nor should it have been, given that this is a radio trigger).


As these two examples illustrate, the writing wasn't up to the usual "Lost" standards, and nowhere was this more evident that in the dialog, which frequently veered into soap-opera puerile. I love the arc of the episode(s), but the effects of the rush job showed through the cracks.

#369. Posted by: Thoan at June 4, 2008 3:37 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought .. re your post 360

Bravo, Bravo, I say! Well said!

#370. Posted by: IdonotheartCR at June 4, 2008 3:58 PM

@366 the mysterious ANON2 spookily revealed:

>J.Wood finally posted his LOST summary.
>It is for LOST PhD's.
>The comments are good too.

>www.powells.com/blog/?p=3350#more-3350

And he closes his review with:

"Did anyone see the Hurley Bird this episode?"

Which, come to think of it, nobody's brought up here, yet, either. What's with this flauting of convention?

#371. Posted by: Cecil at June 4, 2008 4:05 PM

@369 Thoan thought he spoiled us:

...But, speculation and analysis are not spoilers.

Spoilers are revelations of the content of un-aired episodes. Inasmuch as there are no unaired episodes cuerrently (as far as the USA is concerned) there ecan be no spoilers, unless you've recently burgled D*C's safe.

Speculate ans anylyze away...

Insidentally, for other countries, Britain and Australia for two, the eps we've seen have not aired yet, adn everything we write here is a spoiler, but by universal convention we consider US air dates the dividing line, and the residents of those other countries will just have to look out for themselves and (1) not come here, or (2) read at a date offset, or (3) live with the spoilage.

Should anyone from a country with air-dates behind the US be reading this, how DO you deal? And are over-the-net streaming full-episodes viewable from where you are?

#372. Posted by: Cecil at June 4, 2008 4:18 PM

I'm really a better speller than the above would indicate, just not a better typer.

#373. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 4, 2008 4:21 PM

Well I'm posting late, but I would like for someone to explain to me TPTB. Also, what is with Mizzed and ealgumby. Are they producers giving us history lessons. I certainly hope that mizzed and ealgumby research this stuff and it's just not stuck in their brains. I'm not dumb not by a long shot, but I refuse to sit and try to figure out a show that I like to watch
and then criticize that show for some minor inconsistencies that make the show run. Why not just go with the flow of the show, and stop trying to show everybody your 165+ IQ.

#374. Posted by: BigNameJames at June 4, 2008 4:26 PM

No Hurley Bird in this finale....

but I believe that the mode of transportation that Hugo uses to fly off the island could be called:

A Hurley Whirley Bird!!!!

#375. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at June 4, 2008 4:29 PM

@ BigNameJames: Thanks for stopping by.

TPTB - read the posts first

Mizzed & ealgumby - well w/in their rights...many enjoy these views. If they didn't research this stuff, it would be ultra wierd and they each would w/o a doubt have 4 toes.

New Nominee for LOST Blog Line of the Year: 'I'm not dumb not by a long shot'.

Good Talk Russ.

#376. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at June 4, 2008 4:35 PM

→ 370. IdonotheartCR: Thanks brutha! ; )

#377. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 4, 2008 4:36 PM

I tried to read most of the posts, but there are just too many to read every single one (I came close, though!).

So there a couple of things I wanted to touch on:

1. I agreed with another poster who said when they first saw the donkey wheel, they thought of the Black Rock (Remember when we didn't know what the Black Rock was? And remember how Danielle said all of her team got sick after visiting it? Never found out with what. Interesting, is it not?) While it did recall a ship's wheel, I have to say I ended up thinking we're talking alien ship--something that has been there a long time (growing a jungle on top of it). That theory might make too much sense, but it explains the unexplained. Originally I thought that Abaddon and Alpert (hmmm...both A last names...never noticed before) were both on the Black Rock as slave and sailor respectively, and have since been recruited by the island...or aliens... Or perhaps they ARE aliens who have taken on the shapes of people who were on the Black Rock. The creators have said that it was not necessarily an actual island, so...make of that what you will. Perhaps, with the introduction of a Jeremy Bentham name and his panopticon idea, perhaps our castaways are all just part of a grand observation experiment by aliens over centuries. Or at least since the Black Rock crashed there. (Which also makes me want to go back to our Adam and Eve bodies from Season 1, is this about peopling a new civilization on earth?).

2. Desmond's flash of the future. He saw Claire and Aaron get on a heliocopter and leave the island, which results in Charlie's sacrifice of himself. What does it mean that Kate left with Aaron instead? Was the future changed somehow by someone else along the way (Christian Shepherd's ghost)?

3. I also was wondering if Ben and Charlotte were related...we've had a few hints about some other past of Ben's when Harper talks about how Juliet "looks just like her"--her who? His mom? Annie? Was there teen love/pregnancy between Ben and Annie? It would explain his worry over Alex getting pregnant--like history repeating. Or his obsession with the pregnancy issue if his own love died or had to leave because of it.

Maybe it will turn out to be like the mini-series/show "V" (who remembers that?).

#378. Posted by: bocgirl at June 4, 2008 4:46 PM

I don't know how many of you saw the TV Guide w/LOST as its cover story, but the story included a timeline of what the writers of the article think is the correct order of the post-rescue flashforwards:

Early 2005:
O6 leave the island.

Summer 2005:
Sun & Hurley visit Jin's gravestone.

October 2005:
Sayid kills Ismael Bakir, who he believes is the man who killed Nadia.

Fall 2005(?):
Ben visits Charles in the middle of the night.

Fall 2005:
Sayid kills Mr. Avellino on the golf course.
Hurley sees Charlie.
Jack visits Hurley at Santa Rosa.

2006:
Jack testifies at Kate's trial.

Fall 2007:
Jack & Kate's brief engagement.

Late 2007:
Jack attempts suicide by jumping off the highway bridge.
Jack visits the Hoffs-Drawlar funeral home.
Jack tells Kate that they all need to go back to the island. Kate refuses.

#379. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 4, 2008 4:58 PM

@370 IdonotheartCR

Wait, wait... does this mean me?

Sweet, lovable me?

(Sniffle)...

(Daryl-Strawberry-type tear dripping form corner of eye)

#380. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 4, 2008 5:02 PM

@379 Alaïs_Longthought timelined us...

The Lostpedia timeline generally agrees, though it goes into more detail at:

www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline:Post-Island

#381. Posted by: Cecil at June 4, 2008 5:18 PM

@ Red...Neck...Man
I read most of them for your info... Secondly I don't do text mssgs. So just tell me WTH (I figured that one out) TPTB means.

Thank you for your urgent attention to this matter:b

#382. Posted by: Big Name James at June 4, 2008 5:32 PM

While looking at the timeline over on Lostpedia, I noticed a small link, clicked it and was taken to a very interesting interview with one of the early writers of "Lost", David Fury ('Walkabout', 'Special').

It's more about the making of "Lost" than the content, but very interesting.

#383. Posted by: Cecil at June 4, 2008 5:34 PM

@382 Big Name confessed:

>I read most of them for your info... Secondly I don't do text mssgs. So just tell me WTH (I figured that one out) TPTB means.

>Thank you for your urgent attention to this matter:b

This, and most any standard acronym you can think of can be found at:

silmaril.ie/cgi-bin/uncgi/acronyms

(The Internet Acronym Server)

It's not perfect. It doesn't have:

WGNABB

or

YCSFSOYA

or

GRAA

Still, it's pretty good.

#384. Posted by: Cecil at June 4, 2008 5:47 PM

@ Cecil

Thank you. I'll check it out. Is TPTB in there so that maybe I can make sense of the conversation that ealgumby was having? And for all those that got offended by my earlier comment. I apologize for any misunderstanding, but please remember MAC's rule number 4. I don't know if this is what was going on but it seemed awfully strange to me.

#385. Posted by: Big Name James at June 4, 2008 5:58 PM

TPTB = The Powers That Be

Now take U and C3PO & go to KFC.

#386. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at June 4, 2008 6:09 PM

What did Faraday say?
At 37 minutes into the first part. Dan was talking with Juliet. She said she was going to get everyone off the island before she leaves. At that point he is staring at the freighter and says something. I cannot make out what he says. Does anybody with closed caption have this?

#387. Posted by: btly at June 4, 2008 6:11 PM

@385 Big Name James responded:

>Thank you. I'll check it out. Is TPTB in there so that maybe I can make sense of the conversation that ealgumby was having?

Oh yes, and lots more.

Try

ROTFL
ROTFLMAO
ROTFLMAOASTC

>... I apologize for any misunderstanding, but please remember MAC's rule number 4. I don't know if this is what was going on but it seemed awfully strange to me.

No, all these strange (except me and thee, of course) people here are separate people with distinct personalites.

Welcome to the best "Lost" blog on the net and look at some of mac's back reviews (and the comments) to get a handle on the elegance and craziness that goes on around here.

#388. Posted by: Cecil at June 4, 2008 6:21 PM

The c-4

I don't beleive the bomb was ever going to go off untill Christian (done with Mike)was ready for it to go off. It didn't matter what the 3 stooges were trying to do to keep it from going off.

#389. Posted by: btly at June 4, 2008 6:25 PM

→ 382→ 385. Posted by: Big Name James

Fortunately for all of us, Cecil is the voice of reason and patience. (iDOheartcr, BTW) I personally resisted the urge to chastise you for not scanning previous posts to see that your question had been answered several times.

Plus, you missed out on the entertaining (IMHO) interpretations of "TPTB" submitted by frequent posters here. Such as:

Tunisian Power Thumping Baton
Tasmanian Precipitin Treponema Bondmaiden
Twisting Probability Twice Belief
Terrifying Polar-Type Bears
Tunisian Parka Toasting Ben
Tea Pot Tempest Brewing
Teleportation Portends Time Breakdown
The Pan Trom Ballahassee

Ok, so I'm easily amused. Which may explain why I keep coming back here.

#390. Posted by: lovelost at June 4, 2008 6:42 PM

@btly/389
"I don't beleive the bomb was ever going to go off untill Christian (done with Mike)was ready for it to go off. It didn't matter what the 3 stooges were trying to do to keep it from going off."

Excellent point! One which I do not recall seeing presented yet ... just like pulling the trigger doesn't cause the gun to fire, right? The time was not right, until ...

Answers some of the "plot ridiculousness" issues as well (and yes, I was among the complainers ... mea culpa) ... it didn't matter that freezing the battery didn't make sense electrically ... while the "3 stooges" sweated over whether cutting a wire would blow up the bomb or not, it really didn't matter (they could've just snipped away!) ... Keamy's radio transmitter being below ground didn't matter ... Keamy dying didn't matter ...

The bomb went off, when it was time for Michael to die ... whatever his purpose in course correction, it had been satisfied.

As am I with this explanation ... thanks for restoring some sanity to my mind.

#391. Posted by: ealgumby at June 4, 2008 6:59 PM

→ 374. BigNameJames: "Why not just go with the flow of the show, and stop trying to show everybody your 165+ IQ."

Well, ealgumby strikes me as a very intelligent person, so maybe he does have a genius I.Q. My wife would say you've got me pegged if you drop the first 1 in your estimate.

New blog rule: If you write a post that simultaneously gets challenged, supported, complimented and insulted, you win your very own Telescopic Portable Travelers' Baton.

#392. Posted by: Mizzed at June 4, 2008 7:16 PM

@ Big Name James - 382
"I read most of them for your info... Secondly I don't do text mssgs. So just tell me WTH (I figured that one out) TPTB means."

I know you already resolved this... but "most of them" wasn't good enough.

Everyone had a whole conversation about it... and somehow, you totally missed it.

GREAT JOB.

How about you look back at post 258 (asked), 260, 294, 300, 307, 308, 321, 339, and 349... BEFORE you asked.

Oh, I was about to say what lovelost said. (Post 390)

@ Cecil Rose - 388
For some reason, now I'm ROFL... ROFL and LMAO. (Say it as a sentence).

#393. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 4, 2008 7:31 PM

BNJ,

(PS: did you get that, or do I need to spell it out for you? BTW: PS stands for “postscript” ... BTW: BTW stands for “by the way”)

It’s been long since my teen-angst days of cursing God for blessing me with above-average intellect; I have learned to embrace my gift. Fortunately, I was also blessed with enough social and physical skills to avoid suffering such fates as befell our friend teen-Locke ... and would beat the living sh*t out of anyone with enough audacity to foolishly challenge my existential right to be a “brain.” Are you picking up what I’m putting down, sunshine?

GFY

Look it up ...

PS: I apologize to all other respectful netizens if I've crossed a line ...

#394. Posted by: ealgumby at June 4, 2008 7:34 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/379
"2006:
Jack testifies at Kate's trial.

Fall 2007:
Jack & Kate's brief engagement."

Isn't this contradictory to Jack's testimony at trial that he didn't love Kate anymore though? That would seem to follow their engagement (probably publicly known, as O6 celebs). We know Jack was with Kate ten months after his dad died (from the Christian eulogy scene), but probably broke up with her soon thereafter based upon his knowledge that Aaron was his nephew (revealed at that ceremony). Therefore, AFTER their "loving couple" stage, the trial took place. Jack wasn't necessarily messed up enough to prevent his court testimony at that time, but the timeframe seems more consistent with his comment that he "used to" love Kate.

#395. Posted by: ealgumby at June 4, 2008 9:09 PM

FYI - go to http://www.thedailyshow.com/ and listen to what Wyatt Cenac has to say about the Democratic Primaries and why they're like Lost. Hilarious (or hillary-ous)!!

#396. Posted by: Skipper at June 4, 2008 9:16 PM

→ 330. Posted by: welh
So I don't think Ben knows everything about the island. I think Ben thinks he knows everything, which is more dangerous.

Someone else nay have mentioned this but I speculated that Ben may have seen Desmond via the monitors at the Pearl station (The one under Eko's brother's plane). We saw Juliette and someone watching Jack in the swan. Now I can see ben for some strange reason not knowing of the existence of the swan, but what about the Pearl? two stations he doesn't know of? Maybe he just didn't care about the DI "Silly Experiments" and never checked the stations out? I don't think that sounds like Ben.


#397. Posted by: berkyo at June 4, 2008 9:43 PM

BNJ really makes me miss Boozy.

:P

#398. Posted by: Skipper at June 4, 2008 9:45 PM

MIF!!! .....

#399. Posted by: meg at June 4, 2008 10:03 PM

Meg Is Four-hundreth

#400. Posted by: meg at June 4, 2008 10:04 PM

Wow! I thought TPTB stood for:

Two Pints of Terrible Beer...this is why I have been drinking wine all these years...

Okay, i'll back back in my hole now, but behave yourselves people...:

#401. Posted by: meg at June 4, 2008 10:07 PM

351 alias longthought
"sort of time differential between the island & the freighter...yet in the finale the time differential was suddenly & totally ignored. "

I am working on this. When the lost crew go fishing, they can sail out so far with no problems. The same for Michael's raft and the sailboaut with jin and Sayid and Sun. They can see the island from thier crafts. And the Hydra island was - what?- 2 miles did Alex tell them? They could see the island. So there is a certain diameter that the island sits in safely before you leave or enter the area they hide in .
I am trying to see if, the closer the boat got to the island, the less time it was offset by. When the last raft left, the boat could be seen from the island. Maybe if you are in that diameter, there is little or no time off set. I am looking up the times when people came and left at lostpedia and will report back soon. Darn real world gets in the way. People want to eat, where's my shirt, do an errand, work, let some else use the pc.....

#402. Posted by: berkyo at June 4, 2008 10:09 PM

Not sure how I missed this one before...

→ 374. BigNameJames:

We're fortunate on this blog to have highly intelligent people who take the time to research aspects of the show & then present it here. Just as an example, I've learned more about physics & math in the last three months than I had in 25 years, thanks to ealgumby's posts. I realize that you're new here, but really, it's not terribly good netiquette to start off by insulting other posters.

→ 380. & → 381. Cecil Rose: Of course you're lovable, & one of our sages! Thanks for the link to the Lostpedia timeline; the additional detail is helpful. And the interview w/David Fury was quite interesting (the link is at the top of the Timeline page).

→ 395. ealgumby: "Isn't this contradictory to Jack's testimony at trial that he didn't love Kate anymore though?"

The TV Guide writers didn't present any reasoning as to why they placed the events in the order that they did. That particular line would seem to indicate that the engagement happened first. But the conversation between Jack & Kate in the parking garage of the courthouse, in which he clearly wants to see her, contradicts what he said in the testimony.

Kate behaves in a friendly manner toward him in the conversation until Jack makes it clear that he wants to see Kate but not Aaron, at which point Kate makes it clear that she & Aaron are a package deal & he doesn't get to see her w/o accepting Aaron. But while her manner toward Jack chills, it's not overtly antagonistic or anguished, & there's no mention of a fallout over her doing a favor for Sawyer.

At this point my opinion is that the positioning in time of Kate's trial & Jack & Kate's engagement is undetermined—there's not enough evidence to make a definite statement either way.

Also, while I can't remember where I read it, it appears that Jeremy Bentham's obituary will be rewritten by TPTB. Thus, anything that we speculated about before that was supposedly revealed by the obit is moot.

#403. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 4, 2008 10:25 PM

@Big Name James/385
"I apologize for any misunderstanding, but please remember MAC's rule number 4. I don't know if this is what was going on but it seemed awfully strange to me."

@Mizzed/392
"New blog rule: If you write a post that simultaneously gets challenged, supported, complimented and insulted, you win your very own Telescopic Portable Travelers' Baton."

@ealgumby/394
"GFY"

Note our quite different approaches to the "problem" ... are you still quite certain that we are one and the same individual (and I AM certain Mizzed must be chuckling over this false synchronization, as it has become apparent we hold quite different perspectives ... neither more objectively valid than the other, but certainly different), or do you think I am "playing" you by presenting both sides of "my" argument myself, in some vain effort to get you to agree one way or the other?

No ...

Do you live near DC? I'd LOVE to meet you for a few drinks some time ... I'm even willing to travel ... name the place, name the time ...

Call me funny like that, but don't like being disrespected by some face-less e-name ... if you have something to say, say it to my face ... let me know where and when, I'm there ... I will find the time ...

#404. Posted by: ealgumby at June 4, 2008 10:30 PM

@@@@@@@@@

Hey Ealgumby, you are probably yelling at an 8 year old with is friends laughing next to him on the comuter without parental consent.

Mellow... mellow...mellow...

And now back to Lost Talk, with starring MMCB... [Mac's Motely Crew of Bloggers]:

@@@@@@@@@@@@

#405. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at June 4, 2008 10:59 PM

@Mr_Naysayer/405

Then I guess I will have to beat the crap out of an eight-year-old ... ;)

Just kidding, just kidding ...

#406. Posted by: ealgumby at June 4, 2008 11:10 PM

→ 403. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

"At this point my opinion is that the positioning in time of Kate's trial & Jack & Kate's engagement is undetermined—there's not enough evidence to make a definite statement either way."

In “Something Nice Back Home” when Jack goes to visit Hurley at Santa Rosa, they have a conversation about Jack’s relationship with Kate. This is right before Jack proposes to Kate. Jack tells Hurley that he and Kate fed the baby this morning and then Hurley says that he thought they weren’t seeing each other. Then Jack says that after the trial he reconsidered. So I would have to assume that the Kate & Jack engagement flash forward is after the flash forward of Kate’s trial (and the following Jack & Kate conversation in the parking garage).

Sorry if that was a lousy summary of the Jack & Hurley conversation but I think it hits the main points.

#407. Posted by: "old" Christine at June 4, 2008 11:12 PM

Dueling IQ scores at dawn?

(Just tuned in since this morning. This has certainly been a spirited exchange in the past several hours! Obviously the lack of LOST is beginning to flaw the nerves . . . meg! More wine for table four. . . . )

#408. Posted by: davidrh at June 4, 2008 11:17 PM

@"old" Christine/407
"So I would have to assume that the Kate & Jack engagement flash forward is after the flash forward of Kate’s trial"

Thanks for the clarification ... I guess I was wrong ...

#409. Posted by: ealgumby at June 4, 2008 11:23 PM

→ 407. "old" Christine: Thanks Christine, that was a very nice & succinct recap. Thanks for the clarification on the timeline. BTW, how 'bout "Senior Christine"? "Christine the I"? "old" just doesn't seem to suit... : )

→ 408. davidrh: Not only Table 4, Table 8, Table 15, Table 16... ; >

#410. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 4, 2008 11:42 PM

@berkyo: Kudos on your tenacity in discussing and researching the show. Try not to let the real world interfere too much ;)

@Cecil: I like you fine. But you seem strangely incomplete. Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose.

@Alaïs_Longthought and “old” Christine: Where is Christian’s memorial on the flash-forward timeline in relation to Kate’s trial? Prior to, correct? Strange to think of the scene between Jack and Kate in the parking garage knowing that he doesn’t want to see Aaron, his nephew. Purely from the guilt of leaving Claire behind, or do you think there is more to that story?

@Naysayer: Does a comuter commute, compute or co-mute? I have a theory. I think TPTB will hire that guy that brought his grandma to visit Hurley in the psych ward as a regular. I bet he has some flashbacks where he’s on the island as a kid. Maybe it has something to do with the giant ladybug on the wall? There’s got to be some deeper meaning to that scene. Cause Hurley was talking really SLOW, and I think that’s significant.

@RNM: Well, well, well (oops, sorry welh, not you, go back to sleep). I was starting to think you were a Taller Ghost Jacob there for awhile. It occurred to me the other day: we did not have even one Lost Question of the Week in Season 4. No wonder Laffo never comes to visit anymore.

@davidrh: When IQ scores duel at dawn, do they choose pistols or telescoping batons?

#411. Posted by: Clementine at June 4, 2008 11:43 PM

Back to Lost.

For all you bean counters, if you're out there, how many redshirts are left? We've been loosing them 2,3, 6 at a time. Not counting the 5 or 6 in the raft with Dan, who are in limbo.

#412. Posted by: mtncbn at June 4, 2008 11:54 PM

And, oh yeah, the rules have changed!! MIF = 400th! Ya gotta love this place.

#413. Posted by: mtncbn at June 5, 2008 12:00 AM

@ 410. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

You’re probably right about the “old” moniker. I’m only 36 (which probably seems ancient to some of the posters). But a few weeks back someone else started posting under the name “Christine” which I have been using on these boards for a few years (although I post rather infrequently). So maybe “the original” Christine?? Or maybe I should just go back to “Christine” since no one else seems to be posting using that name lately.

Oooooh! I know . . . "Christine Loves Lost" (unless someone can suggest something better).

#414. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost (formerly "old" Christine) at June 5, 2008 12:02 AM

→ 411. Clementine: Lots of good points:

Regarding the timing of Christian's memorial, I believe that Jack says during the eulogy that the service is ten months late. If Christian "died" in September 2004, ten months later would put the time of the service in July 2005. Does anyone remember if Sun was at the service? I wouldn't expect her to be if the service was in July 2005, as she was either too pregnant to travel, in labor, or adjusting to life as a mom. Hmm...does anyone remember from "Ji Yeon" that it started out w/Sun appearing to be packing for a trip? A number of us had found that curious as most pregnant women are cautioned by their OB/GYNs to not travel after anywhere from six months on, depending on the dr.

It could be that Jack doesn't want to see Aaron due to guilt over Claire's disappearance. I wonder if he hasn't told Kate that he's Aaron's half-uncle.

Re IQ scores dueling at dawn: They use No. 2 pencils (sharpened to rapier points, of course). ; )

#415. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 5, 2008 12:05 AM

A minor detail. The bunny transport vault abhors metal(non organic matter). The larger vault(the FDW) should do the same?! Yet TPTB(The Potent Telescoping Baton) of Ben's went with him just fine.

#416. Posted by: mtncbn at June 5, 2008 12:09 AM

Great posts today -- Len, cookie, RNM on a roll. Aside from the intramural contretemps today (yesterday), is it me or are a lot of us grumpy about the show's recent direction?

EABEJNCHDBEBMPZPP =
Experiments Achieve Bizarre Electromagnetism, Jarring Noble Children Having Dreams Badly Ended By Mankind's Pitiful Zealous Power Playing

(That's 15 minutes I'll never have back.)

Maybe Des was lying to Charlie about his Desmonitions because he wanted Charlie to die. Kidding. But did Dominic Monaghan get a DUI? If not, does that disprove the DUI theory (or is it that you can't prove a negative with a positive. Or make that disprove a positive with a neg--. Wait, what was I saying?....)

Internet tip of the day!!
For those just scanning the posts on a particular topic (e.g. TPTB), here's a browsing tip: Hit Ctrl F and enter TPTB in the Find box and you'll find all the references to that word/phrase. We tend to be patient here when people ask questions previously answered, but not THAT patient.

Do C4 Explosives always have an exclamation point after the word Explosives or is that a TV/Acme thing? Explosives....so-so, but Explosives! WOW!

Speaking of which, how do we know the C4 blew up the freighter and not Ben/Michael's Acme bomb? OK, I don't really believe that one either, but isn't it interesting that Ben told Michael he wanted him to blow up the freighter and then later the freighter just happens to blow up through no fault of Ben's. Oh wait, it WAS his fault. Interesting...

#417. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at June 5, 2008 1:00 AM

Several good points lately. And my thoughts.

Micheals brief case of powder(even if C4, which I know not much about) would have not even have crippled the freighter, unless planted by the hull.

Uh, can't focus, forgut all ather points, nignt, night.

#418. Posted by: mtncbn at June 5, 2008 1:45 AM

“Hit Ctrl F and enter (subject or word) in the Find box and you'll find all the references to that word/phrase.
417. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

Thanks for pasting that information. Cecil posted that several seasons ago and I had forgotten about it. (I basically am a computer doofus . . I know all the music software for my profession, but beyond that . . . duh.)

And speaking of the . . “That's 15 minutes I'll never have back” from Scooby-Dude: This information will help us all. I have spent hours going back seasons of postings trying to find one of those . . “I know I said that once before” . . this will make life sooooo much easier. At least here on the LOST SUPERBLOG!

“They use No. 2 pencils (sharpened to rapier points, of course)” by the ever punctuation-blessed Alaïs_Longthought was a marvelous addition.

Have a good day friends.

#419. Posted by: davidrh at June 5, 2008 7:45 AM

I was starting to have hope that BigNameJames was following the monumental path of our now beloved Mr_NaySayer...which as we all know goes a little somethin' like dis...HIT IT!

-Immediately piss everyone off with first post.
-Follow that up with heated banter that causes 'the regs' to attack with full, friendly force.
-Through said banter, slowly gain credibility and start to mix in humor...which we love.
-Finally become accepted and lose almost all forms of seriousness en route to become a challenging stand-up force along side of RNM in mac's LOST Blog.

But alas he may have been scared off...

And always remember, "I'm not dumb, not by a long shot.."

Oh how we love to Say Nay these days!!!
Love ya bro!

#420. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at June 5, 2008 9:03 AM

I have interpreted the Jack/Kate timeline to mean that they were together just after returning home, Jack freaked about Aaron after the memorial service and couldn't deal with it, changed his mind after the trial (as he indicated to Hurley)they got back together, got engaged, Dr. Jack started unraveling.... and we all know (right!!) what happens from there. Goes to show you how fickle men are.

@ ealgumby - my jaw dropped at the G*Y line, was eating yogurt, one of the perils of eating breakfast at my desk and reading this blog. And BTW - # 404 - you stated "Do you live near DC? I'd LOVE to meet you for a few drinks some time ... I'm even willing to travel ... name the place, name the time ..." but VT is too far to travel, *sigh*

I will admit that I have never pegged ealgumby and mizzed as the 'same' person, but I have had thoughts that perhaps they are rival writers/producers on the show, and putting their disagreements to this fine group of folks to settle production disputes. Altho I admit that I only think of these things late at night :-)

#421. Posted by: lostinVT at June 5, 2008 9:11 AM

@402 berkyo collated:

>>351 alias longthought
??"sort of time differential between the island & the freighter...yet in the finale the time differential was suddenly & totally ignored. "

>I am working on this. When the lost crew go fishing, they can sail out so far with no problems. The same for Michael's raft and the sailboaut with jin and Sayid and Sun. They can see the island from thier crafts. And the Hydra island was - what?- 2 miles did Alex tell them? They could see the island. So there is a certain diameter that the island sits in safely before you leave or enter the area they hide in .

And what about Desmond's attempt to sail to Fiji? No mention of any time shift but he just couldn't get there - references to "goldfish bowls".

#422. Posted by: Cecil at June 5, 2008 9:31 AM

@411 my darling Clememtine exposited:

>@Cecil: I like you fine. But you seem strangely incomplete. Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose.

I started posting under just the first name occasionally to emphasize that it's a real name, and breaks in two just fine (people were addressing me by both names which feels a little weird).

I began to use my actual name on the net instead of a made-up name as a method of making myself accountable for everything I write. It's my real name, you can look me up in the Raleigh phone directiry.

It's easy to get into a flame war when you're anonymous, less so when you're revealed to all the world. And I don't WANT to give in to my baser impulses (we all have them), so this is one method of disciplining myself.

There's been a vigourous discussion on the nets maintained by our local newspaper, the Raleigh News and Observer, as to whether posters there should be required to reveal their actual names to avoid unpleasntness.

At the saem time, I recognize sometimes there's a real need for anonymity, and I'd never want to deny anyone anonymous posting priviliges, which one might want for a variety of reasons. So this is a purely personal decision. YMMV

#423. Posted by: Cecil at June 5, 2008 9:50 AM

@412 mtncbn enumerated:

>For all you bean counters, if you're out there, how many redshirts are left? We've been loosing them 2,3, 6 at a time. Not counting the 5 or 6 in the raft with Dan, who are in limbo.

The ever-invaluable Lostpedia calculates there are 16 living fuselage section survivors with names (including the 5 now off-island) and 13 red shirts.

www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Body_count

The 16 names:

Jack Shephard
Kate Austen
James "Sawyer" Ford
John Locke
Sayid Jarrah
Jin-Soo Kwon
Sun-Hwa Kwon
Hugo "Hurley" Reyes
Claire Littleton
Rose Nadler
Craig
Lance
Neil "Frogurt"
Richard
Sullivan
Tracy

#424. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 5, 2008 10:03 AM

@414 Christine Loves Lost pondered:

>So maybe “the original” Christine?? Or maybe I should just go back to “Christine” since no one else seems to be posting using that name lately.

>Oooooh! I know . . . "Christine Loves Lost" (unless someone can suggest something better).

Extra Crispy Christine?

And where is Crispy Seaplanes, anyway?

#425. Posted by: Cecil at June 5, 2008 10:08 AM

@418 Scooby-Dude supercalifragalisticexpealidociosed:

>EABEJNCHDBEBMPZPP =
Experiments Achieve Bizarre Electromagnetism, Jarring Noble Children Having Dreams Badly Ended By Mankind's Pitiful Zealous Power Playing

?(That's 15 minutes I'll never have back.)

I wondered who'd be the first to bite on that. BRAVO!

#426. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 5, 2008 10:13 AM

Quick list of ILBLxx's fav characters.
1. BENJAMIN LINUS <333
2. Miles Straume
3. Scott Jackson
4. Steve Jenkins
5. FROGURT!!!

Quick list of ILBLxx's favorite people.
1. MAC
2. Mr_Naysayer
and everyone else who knows who they are.

Back to photoshop. I'm going to fail my final because I spend all my time on this. Lmao.

#427. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 5, 2008 10:44 AM

While we will never accept any other name for the island-in-time- moving-thingamabob than Frozen Donkey Wheel, has anyone looked up Dharma Wheel on wiki? Looks awfully familiar.

Considering TPTB have previously used the Bagua for the Dharma signs and the I Ching (potentially) for the Hurley numbers, it would fit that they would use one of the oldest symbols in Buddhism for the mystical wheel.

There is also a deity and teaching technique in Buddhism called the Kalachakra, which translates to "Time-Wheel". Essentially, time is a wheel without beginning or end, time is all and therefore knows all, time is interconnected cycles, observable in things as large as the cycles of the planets and as small as the cycles of our breathing.

And if there are any practicing Buddhists here on this blog, I apologize in advance for distilling an ancient teaching philosophy down to a superficial sound bite. I certainly would not want to be BNJ* two days in a row.

*bignamesjamesed, v. Being insulted on an internet blog in a fashion that when examined, turns out to be an unintended compliment, such as "You're so dumb you have a 165+ IQ".

#428. Posted by: Mizzed at June 5, 2008 11:10 AM

@424

Where's Bernard?? I didn't see him in the episode, let alone blow up/drown/take a knife in the throat.

#429. Posted by: EthansGrrl at June 5, 2008 11:24 AM

I think, especially with Lost's large cast, there are sometimes very mundane explanations for such 'mysteries', such as actor avaialability. The actors who are not main cast and in nearly every episode generally don't live in Hawaii, and have to be available and flown out for filming.

The writers generally work around such things. There were no sightings of Richard early in S-4 because Nestor Carbonne was off raising "Cane" at the time.

#430. Posted by: Cecil at June 5, 2008 11:46 AM

I just got back from the IQ duel and it was pretty amazing. Two of the twenty or so MENSA members from this weblog were squared-off, ready to do battle, with their rapier sharp wits when BNJ committed suicide. A single round to the head, when he shot his mouth off. According to the coroner, it was very odd that such a small caliber weapon could hit the pea-sized brain within.

#431. Posted by: EchoLima at June 5, 2008 11:47 AM

Misc. musings from the Popular Mechanics website, which has guest commentators evaluate the reality of the science presented on Lost:

1. The bomb experts called the c-4 configuration in the freighter hold "a load of crap", believing that such a complicated configuration in real-life would have resulted in Keamy and his men being killed trying to put it together.

On the other hand, they did find it plausible that Keamy could have set off a detonator, even down in the orchid station:

"I would remote-detonate [C4] using the standard IED system of sat-phone relays being activated by a phone call or text. Looks like all Keamy has to do is tap on that high-powered, touchscreen sat phone of his, and he can blow the freighter into the next century. And if you buy the heartbeat theory, Pelton and our resident experts could picture a setup that triggers the C4 if Keamy goes kaput."

2. Kaku believes that the time-wheel has a "kernel" of truth in it. His theory is that the Orchid Station was built around a meteorite made of exotic matter that hit the island. The exotic matter could allow for trap doors or wormholes in the stage of space-time, resulting in characters re-appearing in a different space and time, like Ben.

Kaku doesn't have a problem with the theory- his issue is the amount of exotic material needed to pull this thing off (in theory) would be massive.

3. UC-Berkeley prof Mueller believes the island is connected to the South Pacific "by a wormhole-like warp in space-time". I intrepret his comments to mean the island is connected to the earth, although not necessarily on the earth.

Mueller: we are dealing with a complex worm-hole that may have parallel and intersecting tubes. Ben did not move the island- he moved the wormhole connection between the island and the earth.

(I know we've had this debate on the blog before- the freighter didn't find the island, it found the portal to the island).

Mueller's analogy is that you are driving on a highway searching for a town that has seemed to disapear- but it's not the town that has moved, but the highway that has been re-routed.

Mueller: "Faraday insists on traveling to and from the island on a precise trajectory of 305 degrees in order to stay in the center of the wormhole, which is sort of like the eye of the needle. Stay within the eye, and you're okay—but any deviation wreaks havoc on your space-time (especially for a complex wormhole)".

#432. Posted by: Mizzed at June 5, 2008 12:01 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . . . . .

@ 411/ Clementine:

Huh?! I am awake.

#433. Posted by: welh at June 5, 2008 12:06 PM

@432 Mizzed presented:
(the expert opinion on all all things islandish)

And what do the experts say about maintaining that deadman signal through (lots and lots, really big number of -) meters of rock?

#434. Posted by: Cecil at June 5, 2008 12:27 PM

“According to the coroner, it was very odd that such a small caliber weapon could hit the pea-sized brain within.”
431. Posted by: EchoLima

Ok . . OK . . .now we’re just getting nasty.

Come on folks, we’re BIGGER than this!

NAAAAAAAAAAAH!

“I’m not that merciful, not by a long shot . . “

#435. Posted by: davidrh at June 5, 2008 12:43 PM

Mueller: Ben did not move the island- he moved the wormhole connection between the island and the earth. (I know we've had this debate on the blog before- the freighter didn't find the island, it found the portal to the island).
→ 432. Posted by: Mizzed

But how does that explain the "disappearance" of the Island? I think they were in the raft, looking back, when Hurley says something like, "He did it. He moved the Island." because it was no longer visible.

#436. Posted by: lovelost at June 5, 2008 12:44 PM

I have again put on my Indiana Jones hat in an attempt to translate the hieroglyphs.

I previously translated the Hatch alarm sequence to state: "He escapes place of Death."

Now, in the frozen donkey wheelhouse, those glyphs were more crudely made, and there is some multiple interpretations possible for the symbols.

But my best guess is: "Open side (Earth) Gate to Eternities."

#437. Posted by: welh at June 5, 2008 12:45 PM

→ 434. Cecil: "And what do the experts say about maintaining that deadman signal through (lots and lots, really big number of -) meters of rock?"

They said not with normal communications technology- it would have to involve an extremely sophisticated, high-powered sat phone.

See this quote from D&C:

"We didn't really want to put ourselves in a position where we were married to everything that exists technologically," Cuse says. "We decided that our satellite phone would be a very modern, high-tech version." Plus, Lindelof adds, they're dealing with the personal property of a bad guy who can plant a fake plane crash in a submarine trench too deep for recovery.

I know that not everyone agrees with the Locke/surrogate viewer theory, but remember the elevator conversation:

Locke (i.e. the skeptical viewer): "How deep is this thing?"

Ben (the writers who are not going to give an answer that can be analyzed later on the internet): "Deep".

→ 436. lovelost: "But how does that explain the "disappearance" of the Island? I think they were in the raft, looking back, when Hurley says something like, "He did it. He moved the Island." because it was no longer visible."

If you buy Mueller's theory that the island is connected to earth, but not a defined, physical place on earth, then essentially, Ben closed the window you were looking through that allowed you to see the island.

To see the island again, you have to reopen a window- but unfortunately, the old one doesn't work anymore. The island exists just as it always has, but you may have to open thousands of other windows before you find another one that will allow you to see the island again.

Also, for the rational thinkers on this blog, see this D&C curveball:

"The science needs to be right enough that we create a sense of believability to the storytelling," Cuse says. "But we're always trying to skirt that line between the two possible explanations—the scientific one or a mythical and magical one—and we are purposefully ambiguous about which one might be correct."

"Hopefully it won't feel like it's a copout when the show does answer that question," Lindelof adds, "because we never promised a show that was based entirely and grounded in science."

#438. Posted by: Mizzed at June 5, 2008 1:11 PM

@ welh: I interpreted it a little differently...I came up with:

For a Good Time, Call Jacob tha Pimp!

#439. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at June 5, 2008 1:14 PM

and I got, "I'm not dumb, not by a long shot."

#440. Posted by: davidrh at June 5, 2008 1:31 PM

Slow afternoon at the bank, eh, RNM?


Here, too.

#441. Posted by: davidrh at June 5, 2008 1:32 PM

First off, everyone should read every post by Mizzed. Great stuff all the way around. I don't need to post very much because he/she echoes my thoughts splendidly.

I did want to add however, that the absence of the time shift and the 305 bearing requirement didn't bother me. I assumed that it was irrelevant because the freighter had moved close enough to shore so it was inside the island area and the 305 bearing was no longer neccessary. If not, I would go with the fact that having been repeated so often, usage of the bearing was implied.

#442. Posted by: Thomas Hobbes at June 5, 2008 3:45 PM

Well hi there everyone. I'm sorry to tell you that the rumors of my demise have been greatly exagerrated. Also, to ealgumby I'm too afraid to tell you where I reside. The closest I'll tell you is somewhere in the the dirty south:) But, if you do happen to find me, I drink Hennessey not beer.

#443. Posted by: BigNameJames at June 5, 2008 4:09 PM

Okay, here is a timeline cut from Lostpedia
I included some notes also from Lostpedia about the time offsets. Maybe the writers and saying that the freighter got close enough to the island to be in the island's skewed time zone.

BTW did you know they got rescued on new year's eve?

Day 92 - Wednesday, December 22, 2004
Daniel performs an experiment. (When we see the display it reads "03:16:23". Worried, Dan eyes his wristwatch, concerned by what he sees, rushes to his antenna-like contraption and retrieves a second clock, reading 02:45:03".Mumbling "31 minutes" )

Sayid, Desmond, and Frank leave the island in the helicopter at dusk.

Day 93 - Thursday, December 23, 2004
Jack and the others become concerned when they radio Regina on the boat and are told that the helicopter has not arrived.

Day 94 - Friday, December 24, 2004 (Christmas Eve)
Frank, Desmond and Sayid arrive on the freighter at mid-day.
(At the time of Naomi's arrival on the Island, the ship was anchored approximately eighty nautical miles to the west. ("The Brig") As of Day 94, it had closed in to about forty miles off the coast (twenty minutes of flying). )

Day 95 - Saturday, December 25, 2004 (Christmas Day)
Juliet finds Daniel and Charlotte inside The Tempest. Juliet fights with Charlotte under false pretenses they are releasing the gas, but Daniel renders it inert.

Day 96 - Sunday, December 26, 2004
(off-camera) Frank transports Keamy and his mercenaries to the island.

Day 98 - Tuesday, December 28, 2004
Keamy, Frank, and the mercenaries return to the freighter at night

Day 99 - Wednesday, December 29, 2004
Gault allows Sayid and Desmond to return to the island on a zodiac raft. Desmond refuses to go, but Sayid sails to the beach.

Keamy kills Ray and Gault in an effort to make Frank pilot the helicopter back to the island; Frank finally complies.
Frank throws the satellite phone for survivors to find at the beach.

Keamy and his team heads to the Orchid. Frank is handcuffed to the helicopter.


Day 100 - Thursday, December 30, 2004

Sayid returns on the raft. Kate with Aaron and Miles. Sayid and Kate set off to find Jack.

Daniel takes a raft of five survivors back to the boat (Sun, Jin and Aaron), and then turns back to get more.

Frank is cut free. Frank, Sayid, Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sawyer head to the freighter.

Daniel leaves on a second trip with survivors.

The helicopter lands on the freighter and the fuel leak is fixed. Desmond, Sun and Aaron board the helicopter.
The helicopter leaves.
The freighter explodes.


#444. Posted by: berkyo at June 5, 2008 4:30 PM

@Scooby-Dude/417
Oh, that's why in Computerland we call an exclamation point a "bang." Thanks!

#445. Posted by: hurling at June 5, 2008 4:36 PM

The great power of community thought:

→ 444. berkyo:

"Maybe the writers and saying that the freighter got close enough to the island to be in the island's skewed time zone."

"(At the time of Naomi's arrival on the Island, the ship was anchored approximately eighty nautical miles to the west. ("The Brig") As of Day 94, it had closed in to about forty miles off the coast."
******

Your post triggered something that had been in the back of my mind. Check out this transcript from "There's No Place Like Home, Part 1":

DESMOND: Okay, engine should be working.

HENDRICKS: (Australian accent) Indeed they are.

DESMOND: All right, well, take us to the island.

DESMOND: But make sure you--you stay on the bearing of 3-0-5. It's gotta be exactly 3-0-5. (Static crackling)

HENDRICKS: We've got some kind of RF interference with the the fathometer. I can't see the reef, mate.

DESMOND: RF interference? How is that possible? The radio room's down.

HENDRICKS: I don't know, but something on this boat is broadcasting. If we don't turn it off, I'm not going any closer than 5 miles off the coast.

DESMOND: Then I'll find it.

I think that's pretty significant- over the course of the freighter saga, it went from 80 miles away to 40 miles away to eventually, 5 miles away and within visual distance of the shore.
****

→ 422. Cecil: "And what about Desmond's attempt to sail to Fiji? No mention of any time shift but he just couldn't get there - references to "goldfish bowls".

Great question. This is merely a first stab, but a. Could it be that Desmond, not having the correct heading, could not find the exit door, and b. He never made it far enough away from the shore to experience the most severe side-effects?

#446. Posted by: Mizzed at June 5, 2008 5:46 PM

My head is whirling with all the thoughts flowing here.

Just thought I'd add my own to the mix. Please bear with me if this is a bit convoluted or disjointed, but then I guess that would kind of blend with the various story arcs, themes and time shifts of Lost anyhow.

Piggybacking on a theme of the island as Atlantis (with potential four-toed Atlanteans), from past studies -- again, please bear with me as I am trying to recall material that last wound its way (through cases of Dharma beer) to the surface of my brain back in college in the 80s -- I recall there being several rumored sites for Atlantis. One of them is in the Atlantic Ocean, possibly in the area covered by the Bermuda Triangle. Another possible Atlantis was the ancient Greek island of Thera. From what I (shakily) recall, that island apparently blew itself up in a volcanic explosion that sent ejecta miles high and created tidal swells throughout the Mediterranean basin, washing inland along the Nile into inner Africa.

It is possible that the timing of the island's re/trans/chrono-location could be connected to the tsunami if TPTB (The Powers That Be) put it that way. This could even help perpetuate that mythology, especially if connected to Thera.

Just my two coppers.

Along other lines, I think Daniel and the Raftaways got sucked into the backdraft of the island's shift. I don't think we've seen the end of Daniel. He had that whole 'Desmond is my constant' thing scribed in his notebook that also had a depiction of the Orchid station symbol (I wondered how he obtained that in a past post).

Pure speculation on my part, and please don't read this paragraph if you think it might be a spoiler, but I think Daniel is significant. I think he will make contact with Desmond again in the future and will once again be instrumental in finding the island. He and the rafties survive, but they go bonkers with nosebleeds (ala Minkowski and Regina), but Faraday survives that and gets shifted back in time to when he is in a home with a caretaker watching the news of the Oceanic 815 discovery at the bottom of the ocean.

#447. Posted by: Gumbo at June 5, 2008 7:33 PM

TPTB... Toy Pandas' Tell Backstory

#448. Posted by: ANON2 at June 5, 2008 8:40 PM

→ 417. Scooby-Dude: "Did Dominic Monaghan get a DUI? If not, does that disprove the DUI theory..."

; ) As far as I know, Dominic Monaghan did not get a DUI. If there is a rule that any actor receiving a DUI is written off the show, this would be, as the saying goes, "The exception [that] proves the rule"—which of course makes no sense until we realize that when the expression was developed, "prove" and "test" had similar meanings. There—now I feel like I contributed to the pool of knowledge today. ; )

→ 419. davidrh: “...the ever punctuation-blessed Alaïs_Longthought was a marvelous addition":

Why thank you, kind sir!

→ 422. Cecil: "Goldfish bowls," following up on berkyo's 402:

So perhaps we can theorize that the island and a range of ocean around it—five/ten miles, maybe?—is under a "dome" like a snowglobe. Within this dome there is no time differential. Unless one uses 305 as a heading, one can get neither in nor out of the globe.

#449. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 5, 2008 9:22 PM

Ealgumby, I live in DC. And I am always up for drinks!


Also, am I the only one who thinks this show is going to end with Ben handing over the keys to the chocolate factory to whichever fuselage survivior is the last one standing?

#450. Posted by: FenwayBen at June 5, 2008 9:40 PM

Ian Somerhandler also didn't get a DUI, although there were some rumors going around Oahu that suggested he was written out for reasons other than just good drama.

#451. Posted by: FenwayBen at June 5, 2008 9:44 PM

@@@@@@@@@

Ilovebenjaminlinusxxx = how is the photoshop coming? Summer is ALMOST here...don't start slackin' yet!!

@@@@@@@@@

I just want to reiterate:
LIFE IS NOTHING BUT THE FILLER BETWEEN EPISODES OF LOST.

@@@@@@@@@

Ealgumby flexed, BNJ whimpered.


@@@@@@@@@

NiagaraFalls,NY - 90 degrees today. Finally... winters last waaay too long up here in these parts.

@@@@@@@@@

Meg - Hi! Miss me? haha.

@@@@@@@@@

New Theory - Charles Widmore is the original Captain of the BlackRock ship... he hasn't aged (ala Richard Alpert) and that is why he calls the island "his." He was there first...

@@@@@@@@@

How many days til Lost returns? Like 200somethin' I think... AUGGHH!!!!!!

@@@@@@@@@

Sometimes I find myself comparing real world stuff to the LOST world stuff... like looking at numbers to deeply or watching cars pass by and thinking about who is driving the car, etc... something tells me I (we?) spend too much mind-time on the Island... HA! Zoinks.

@@@@@@@@


#452. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at June 5, 2008 10:53 PM

Aw shucks, no one responded to my zombie post. :(

Moving on.

Everyone sure has great ideas and theories. You guys are way too smart!

Had to respond to Cecil's question, since I'm in France...

→ 372. Posted by: Cecil
Should anyone from a country with air-dates behind the US be reading this, how DO you deal? And are over-the-net streaming full-episodes viewable from where you are?

*Don't worry Cecil, it's all good. Those of us on the other side of the puddle have various ways of dealing. Me, I download the episodes as soon as they come up on the file sharing program most popular here, Emule. Unfortunately, I usually have to wait until they are sub-titled in French (a day or two after the English versions) so my roommate can watch with me. There's also a group of Chinese or Koreans who subtitle in English and their native language. I think it's Chinese? They get their versions up in lightening speed! Anyway, sometimes we watch that version because my roommate can read the English. It's funny, most French here can't understand American English on TV shows or films. Americans don't articulate as well as the British (and most of them learn British English in school anyway) so the French are really "lost" when Hurley or especially Sawyer speak. Plus, they don't understand all the expressions and idioms.

As to the blog, I don't read it until I've watched the espisode. That's why I'm usually so late to the party. I think most foreigners do the same. And no, the streaming episodes on ABC's website don't work overseas. We don't have the right to watch it here as the networks want to sell Lost to Europe and not have everyone watch it for free online. Um, ahem, cough.

The biggest problem for me is the time difference. You guys are all asleep when I start posting. And I'm asleep when you respond. Oh well, it's worth it. I love you guys!

#453. Posted by: En Provence at June 6, 2008 6:22 AM

Several people are posting about the range of the Island and the side-effect of getting there and back. I think we mostly all agree.

→ 402. Posted by: berkyo
So there is a certain diameter that the island sits in safely before you leave or enter the area they hide in .

*Well, we know the Hydra was a couple of miles off-shore from the Island so it makes sense there's a radius of "protection."

→ 422. Posted by: Cecil
And what about Desmond's attempt to sail to Fiji? No mention of any time shift but he just couldn't get there - references to "goldfish bowls".

*I thought Desmond said, "we're in a bloody snow globe" which set off the whole Island in an arctic climate protected by a bubble debate :)

→ 446. Posted by: Mizzed
Great question. This is merely a first stab, but a. Could it be that Desmond, not having the correct heading, could not find the exit door, and b. He never made it far enough away from the shore to experience the most severe side-effects?

*I think we know that Desmond, not having the correct heading, couldn't get out of the "bloody snow globe" and sailed around in circles. But I'm wondering what the EMA had to do with the side-effects? The EMA happened after Desmond came back. Could it be that blowing up the hatch caused the side-effects for people leaving or entering the Island?

→ 449. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought
So perhaps we can theorize that the island and a range of ocean around it—five/ten miles, maybe?—is under a "dome" like a snow globe. Within this dome there is no time differential. Unless one uses 305 as a heading, one can get neither in nor out of the globe.

*Je suis d'accord avec toi, Alaïs! But, I was just thinking, what about the raft? It seemed like they sailed for a while. Surely they must have been out of radius? Maybe they were sailing around in circles like Desmond and didn't know it? Again, maybe the EMA has something to do with the side-effects. I'm so Lost!!

#454. Posted by: En Provence at June 6, 2008 6:38 AM

Wake up everyone! It's 6:45am on the East Coast. I'm lonely :( Just kidding. Like I said a couple of hundred posts ago, I'm coming back to the States for the summer. It'll be nice to be on the same continent with you guys, though I'll then be three hours BEHIND.

The weather is really crappy here, rain everyday. Not my usual beloved, sun-filled Provence. Grrr. And to top it off, next week I'm heading to the Pacific Northwest for more of the same. But I will be with my (grown) children that I miss so much. Anyways (does anyone recognize that expression?)...

→ 425. Posted by: Cecil
And where is Crispy Seaplanes, anyway?

*I was wondering that too! We miss you Crispy!

→ 437. Posted by: welh
Now, in the frozen donkey wheelhouse, those glyphs were more crudely made, and there is some multiple interpretations possible for the symbols. But my best guess is: "Open side (Earth) Gate to Eternities."

*Wow! Thanks for the interpretation, how did you come up with that? What a wonderful detail. It seems like it would be a lot of work for the writers and set designers to come make those hieroglyphs and they wouldn't do it without a reason.

There's 4-toed statues, hieroglyphs, people that don't seem to age, frozen donkey wheels, I think we're heading to an ancient civilization. And more zombies!)

#455. Posted by: En Provence at June 6, 2008 6:48 AM

I wonder which donkey will win the Belmont? Wouldn't it be great if there was a brilliant flash of purple light right before the race and Kate's giant black horse appeared and completely smoked the competition!

#456. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at June 6, 2008 8:35 AM

@450 FenwayBen wondered:

>Also, am I the only one who thinks this show is going to end with Ben handing over the keys to the chocolate factory to whichever fuselage survivior is the last one standing?

Ben as Jeff Probst?

#457. Posted by: Cecil at June 6, 2008 8:53 AM

Cecil:
@423 re: posting under your real name
A stand-up thing to do.

@425 re: Extra Crispy Christine
Scary, because I nearly posted Christine Seaplanes the night before.

@426 re: supercalifragalisticexpealidociosed:
Your best verbization (if that's even a word) yet!

@445 hurling re: exclamation point as "bang" in Computerland. Wow, never knew that!

@447 gumbo re: Daniel's character being significant.

Totally agree. I think his search for his constant, Desmond, will propel a lot of the action forward next season, but sadly, given that he has a caretaker and doesn't know why he's upset about the Oceanic 815 discovery, he may develop a bad case of Nosebleeditis.

Note to self since I keep misspelling his name: It's Faraday: FAR-A-DAY.

@452 Mr._Naysayer re: too much time spent on Lost -- Zoinks!
Ruh Roh.

@455 En Provence re: U.S. visit. I imagine the coffee in the Pacific NW will be decent. And the paper cups give it a nice woodsy taste.

@456 Red...Neck...Man re: betting the donkeys at Belmont:

Bet an exacta donkey wheel with Big Ben on top.

#458. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at June 6, 2008 8:57 AM

@454 En Provence complained:

>Americans don't articulate as well as the British so the French are really "lost" when Hurley or especially Sawyer speak. Plus, they don't understand all the expressions and idioms.

Aire yew sain we-uns doan tawk lahk them thar Bree-uts?

#459. Posted by: Cecil at June 6, 2008 8:58 AM

@454 En Provence corrected:

>*I thought Desmond said, "we're in a bloody snow globe"...

Right you are - I stand corrected. "Goldfish bowls" was another story (Heinlein) that "Lost" is beginning to remind me of.

#460. Posted by: Cecil at June 6, 2008 9:04 AM

@458 Scooby-Dude correctly spelled:

>Note to self since I keep misspelling his name: It's Faraday: FAR-A-DAY.

We engineers never get that one wrong, since the original Faraday (Michael) gave his name to the unit of electical capacitance - the farad.

#461. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 6, 2008 9:16 AM

Waaaaay back on post 429, EthansGirl asked:

“Where's Bernard?? I didn't see him in the episode, let alone blow up/drown/take a knife in the throat.”

She was asking because the list on Post 424 didn’t include his name next to Rose’s.

I don’t think anyone ever replied to her, so I thought I would remind her that Bernard was in the TAIL and this list was “survivors from the FUSELAGE”.

Of course, since he’s the only survivor besides Cindy and her scarf, you would think he would have at least an “honorary” position on the living list! (Now that I think of it - Was Cindy REALLY on the plane or was she also a Other “Plant”?)

I’m so confused. Why did I ever tune in on that FIRST "Lost" episode?!?!

I could have led a bland, boring, unsurprising TV life watching re-runs of “Murder She Wrote” followed up with “Funniest Videos” where I’m guaranteed to see at least 7 guys get hit in the groin with bats, balls, and other assorted projectiles every episode.

#462. Posted by: davidrh at June 6, 2008 9:17 AM

@En Provence - I can't understand a bloody thing anyne says, so I am lost without the closed captioning....can't you do that over there??

#463. Posted by: meg at June 6, 2008 9:19 AM

@FenwayBen/450
"I live in DC. And I am always up for drinks!"

Haven't been to the Brickskeller in quite a while ... if that's convenient/acceptable ... open to other suggestions if not. Weekends and post-6:30 weekdays are usually okay for me. Any other DC-area people interested? And lostinVT, don't sigh, of course you're welcome too, should you happen to be in the area! BTW, VT really is too far to travel for drinks ... isn’t it? ;)

#464. Posted by: ealgumby at June 6, 2008 10:01 AM

@FenwayBen/450
"I live in DC. And I am always up for drinks!"

@→ 464. Posted by: ealgumby "Haven't been to the Brickskeller in quite a while ... if that's convenient/acceptable ... open to other suggestions if not. "


ealgumy, you should wear a scarf so that FenwayBen can pick you out in the crowd ;P

#465. Posted by: Skipper at June 6, 2008 10:17 AM

@ 464 ealgumby
"BTW, VT really is too far to travel for drinks ... isn’t it? ;)"

well, not really, you just hop on 95, connect to 91, takes about what 8-9 hrs or so - I used to make it to Fredericksburg in 10, (at night...)

and i happen to frequent/occ work at/manage the website of a great little roadside tavern in these here parts, always fun!

You never know tho, I am heading to Roanoke in August, DC is a bit out of the way, but I just may pop in :-)

I like the snow globe idea, and not being able to find the exit/entrance to the island.
Also - re the desmonition of Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter - if Desmond was able to intervene and change Charlie's destiny toward death - what if there was a course correction that substituted Kate for Claire? if that makes any sense.

#466. Posted by: lostinVT at June 6, 2008 10:30 AM

Some various island moving day thoughts:

1. In the final scenes of the freighter explosion/island moving, we are never shown exactly where the zodiac is located. We do see lots of open ocean shots from the helicopter, which then crashes into the ocean 2 minutes after the island goes bye-bye.

The life raft should have been no more than 2-3 miles apart from the zodiac. Since the two boats didn't connect, it seems the zodiac left with the island.

2. Looking back on it, it looks like Rousseau's team was not infected with some kind of disease, but was actually suffering from the same kind of time-shift madness that killed many of the people on the freighter.

This suggests that her team arrived at the island at a heading close enough to 305 to find the island, but not close enough to 305 that they could avoid the mental time warp (it's just a jump to the left...and then a jump to the right. Put your hands on your hips...)

I hope we get a Rousseau back story next year, because the whole thing indicates that Rousseau survived because she had a constant.

There are also time issues with her story- she says she came to the island 16 years ago, but the Dharma purge was 12 years ago. It never seemed possible that Dharma would allow Rousseau to tamper with their radio tower.

Perhaps Rousseau's personal timeline was shifted significantly by her approach to the island?

3. Is there a top to our snow globe model? 815 broke up when it arrived, Yemi's plane crashed, and so did the real Henry Gale and his balloon. But Desmond and Rousseau were able to sail in and the Others used a submarine, so when buying tickets to visit the island, always go with the boat??

#467. Posted by: Mizzed at June 6, 2008 10:45 AM

@ealgumby/464 - not too far to go for a drink, but don't drive home afterwards

@454 En Provence & @Cecil/459 - They should only hire actors who can speak with a Philadelphia accent. Aside from not having to say "Philly" because we can pronounce "Philadelphia" in 2 syllables anyway, we also differentiate between vowels more than other North Americans. For example, Mary, marry & merry are different. So are dawn & don.

#468. Posted by: hurling at June 6, 2008 10:57 AM

@462 davidrh explained:

>Waaaaay back on post 429, EthansGirl asked:

>>“Where's Bernard?? I didn't see him in the episode, let alone blow up/drown/take a knife in the throat.”

>She was asking because the list on Post 424 didn’t include his name next to Rose’s.

That's because that was a list of fuselage section survivors. He's on the list of tail section survivors (the only one).

>I don’t think anyone ever replied to her, so I thought I would remind her that Bernard was in the TAIL and this list was “survivors from the FUSELAGE”.

Oops. I see you saw that already.

>(Now that I think of it - Was Cindy REALLY on the plane or was she also a Other “Plant”?)

She served Jack a drink, iirc.

>I’m so confused. Why did I ever tune in on that FIRST "Lost" episode?!?!

I tuned in expecting to see something like fictional "Survivor" episode. And dissapointed at the unreality of the 'crash'. Little did I know...


>I could have led a bland, boring, unsurprising TV life watching re-runs of “Murder She Wrote” followed up with “Funniest Videos” where I’m guaranteed to see at least 7 guys get hit in the groin with bats, balls, and other assorted projectiles every episode.

But then we get both in "Lost", too.

#469. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 6, 2008 12:36 PM

OK, "Lost" Trivia time:

Whose famous last words (on "Lost") are each of these (no fair using Lostpedia):

"What's that on his arm? What's that on his arm?"

"Fine, then, if you're not interested why are you concerned -- ?

"Just do it Mikhail!"

"Beach Boys. "Good Vibrations." On the keypad, the numbers, they're notes. It was programmed by a musician."

"Para...lyzed...."

"I was afraid of losing you. If you found the diamonds...you wouldn't need me anymore."

"Okay. Okay."

"It was an order, Tom. We had to follow it."

"Ryan!"

"Okay. I give up."

"Wherever you go...Widmore...will find you..."

"Well, at least that's something we have in common."

"I'm sorry, Bonnie. I too am following orders."

"I'm sorry George...just tell my sister that I love her."

"Tell Shannon...tell her..."

"All right, we're not gonna take any more of this stuff than we need, because nitroglycerin is extremely temperamental. So we just --"

"Walt! Wait!"

"Which way's the beach?"

"The children are fine. They're better off now."

"For what?"

"Michael...

"Despite what you may think, I am not the enemy, we are not the enemy. But if you shoot me, that’s exactly what we’ll become.

"The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not wander...

"Call him Benjamin."

"Ben?"

"Your boat, eighty miles off shore. Er... Naomi, parachutist."

"The casing for the equipment is waterproof, it'll keep going forever."

"One...two...three!"

"Dad...they're serious. They killed Karl...and my mother... Please, daddy! Just please, please..."

"But I'm the doctor."

"Who are you?"

"It'll come back around..."

"Fifty-two years."

"I...can't...get...back..."

#470. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 6, 2008 12:42 PM

→ 452. Mr_Naysayer: "Sometimes I find myself comparing real world stuff to the LOST world stuff..."

When I make tea, I set the microwave for 5:00...& for two cups the water consistently boils at 1:08. ; )

→ 454. & 455. En Provence:" I thought Desmond said, 'we're in a bloody snow globe'...":

Exactement! Got to love that Scottish accent... And bon voyage & bienvenue aux États-Unis...too bad you'll be all the way across the continent from moi or I'd suggest meeting for a cup of coffee (not in a paper cup!).

→ 456. Red...Neck...Man: Kate's horse winning the Belmont:

Ha! Pretty funny... I would *love* for Miss Longthought to see a Triple Crown winner, but my biggest wish is that the race go off safely.

→ 466. lostinVT: "a great little roadside tavern":

Over by Brattleboro? I'll be in VT (Bennington/Manchester area) late June/early July...

→ 467. Mizzed: "Is there a top to our snow globe model?"

Two separate thoughts here: When we were discussing time-traveling, ealgumby referenced (IIRC) a Tipler cylinder. So perhaps the snowglobe is a cylinder. The second thought is that the examples you mentioned of people arriving by air were all of people who arrived inadvertently—they didn't intend to be there. It's pretty likely that they weren't using the correct heading, whatever it might have been at the time. The Others would have known what the correct heading was & used it for their travels by submarine. If Desmond was predestined to be on the island per Ms. Hawking, perhaps he was "allowed" to sail through w/no problems, although he did arrive in a violent storm & crashed on the island w/damage to his boat. And as far as Rousseau goes, when her science expedition changed course to investigate the mysterious transmission (the Numbers), their ship's instruments malfunctioned, a storm "with strange sounds" (from Lostpedia) ensued, & they crashed onto the island w/their ship's hull breached beyond repair. So it appears that the only arrival on the island that didn't include damage to the vessel, from the examples mentioned, was the submarine operated by the Others.

→ 468. hurling: Philly accents:

W/my mom's entire family being from Philly, I got a kick from your list of "Mary, marry, & merry" & "dawn & don"—so true! And there's a difference between "berry" & "bury" too (one eats berries, one does not berry dead people ; >). Now how would you render the SE PA pronunciation of "water"? ; )

#471. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 6, 2008 1:20 PM

→ 470. Cecil Rose:

Oh gee...a trivia contest, I can't resist!

Whose famous last words (on "Lost") are each of these (no fair using Lostpedia):

"Just do it Mikhail!"
—Bea Klugh (who hasn't lived up to her name)

"It was an order, Tom. We had to follow it."
—Ryan

"Wherever you go...Widmore...will find you..."
—Keamy

"I'm sorry, Bonnie. I too am following orders."
—Mikhail

"I'm sorry George...just tell my sister that I love her."
—Naomi

"Tell Shannon...tell her..."
—Boone

"All right, we're not gonna take any more of this stuff than we need, because nitroglycerin is extremely temperamental. So we just --"
—Dr. Arzt

"The children are fine. They're better off now."
—Goodwin

"Michael..."
—Libby

"Despite what you may think, I am not the enemy, we are not the enemy. But if you shoot me, that’s exactly what we’ll become."
—Colleen

"Call him Benjamin."
—Emily Linus

"Your boat, eighty miles off shore. Er... Naomi, parachutist."
—Charlie (sniff)

"Dad...they're serious. They killed Karl...and my mother... Please, daddy! Just please, please..."
—Alex

"I...can't...get...back..."
—Minkowski

#472. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 6, 2008 1:31 PM

"Walt! Walt!"


Wasn't that Mrs. Disney?

#473. Posted by: davidrh at June 6, 2008 1:54 PM

→ 473. davidrh: "Walt! Walt!" Wasn't that Mrs. Disney?:

The rest of her sentence was "You're supposed to be a GOOD boy—stop drawing those bare-bottomed ducks!"

#474. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 6, 2008 2:16 PM

All Alaïs_Longthought answers are correct.

I think I'm going to move the remainded of this over to the Random Topics Spring '08...

#475. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 6, 2008 2:26 PM

Oh, you're all awake! I'm just settling into my second glass of wine ; )

→ 458. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
@455 En Provence re: U.S. visit. I imagine the coffee in the Pacific NW will be decent. And the paper cups give it a nice woodsy taste.

*Scooby, I could write a dissertation on coffee in France and the US! When I moved here 3 years ago, I was used to drinking my coffee in a big mug with half and half. BIG adjustment! I tried ordering a café avec lait (not to be confused with a café au lait!). But I would get a little pitcher of regular milk. Not to mention, here in France a café is an espresso served in a demi-tasse. Not a mug in site! So, I adjusted. Now I drink "espresso" with sugar! The last time I went to the States, I spent a lot of money on espressos. I think I'll bring my Italian coffee maker and drink at home.

→ 459. Posted by: Cecil
Aire yew sain we-uns doan tawk lahk them thar Bree-uts?

*Hilarious! Yup, that's what I'm sayin'. My roommate just happened by and I said your post out loud, he just laughed and shook his head. But he did say that now, after 4 seasons, he can finally understand Hurley perfectly.

→ 463. Posted by: meg
@En Provence - I can't understand a bloody thing anyne says, so I am lost without the closed captioning....can't you do that over there??

*Yeah, closed caption exists but the problem is, I'd first have to wait for Lost to come to France. We just had season three a little while ago. Then, the closed caption would be, wait for it...in French! I watch a LOT of shows here with the closed caption on. I'm totally hooked on Bones and House isn't too bad, though I've seen House in English. It's just not the same without the original actors' voices.

Whew! Just previewed and this post is WAY too long. Cutting, cutting.

#476. Posted by: En Provence at June 6, 2008 2:26 PM

Here's the second part of a too long post.

→ 467. Posted by: Mizzed
This suggests that her team arrived at the island at a heading close enough to 305 to find the island, but not close enough to 305 that they could avoid the mental time warp (it's just a jump to the left...and then a jump to the right. Put your hands on your hips...)

*Good point Mizzed! I wonder if the sickness only happens with a round trip. Desmond was fine until he got to the freighter. Maybe Rousseau stayed behind on a try-to-get-off-the-Island attempt due to her pregnancy? And therefore didn't get the sickness.

3. Is there a top to our snow globe model? 815 broke up when it arrived, Yemi's plane crashed, and so did the real Henry Gale and his balloon. But Desmond and Rousseau were able to sail in and the Others used a submarine, so when buying tickets to visit the island, always go with the boat??

*Another good observation. The show seems to make a specific point on showing people's various ways to get to the Island. There's something there we haven't figured out yet. Maybe you're on to something. Anyone else?

→ 471. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

Exactement! Got to love that Scottish accent...

*Oh, I do, I do!

And bon voyage & bienvenue aux États-Unis...too bad you'll be all the way across the continent from moi or I'd suggest meeting for a cup of coffee (not in a paper cup!).

Merci beaucoup ! C'est un vrai dommage que je serai aussi loin de toi. Je voudrai bien un café !

#477. Posted by: En Provence at June 6, 2008 2:30 PM

@@@@@@@@@


I stopped in from laying out in the sun just long enough to read some posts... now back to the sun, an ice cold beer and my BOB MARLEY mix... great friggin' summer songs - I highly suggest you get yourself a BOB MARLEY mix cd... don't worry 'bout a 'ting... cuz e'vy little 'ting is gonna be alright...

@@@@@@@@

Sorry that had nothing to do with LOST...

#478. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at June 6, 2008 2:32 PM

@ Mizzed & En Provence:

re: Sickness
*Good point Mizzed! I wonder if the sickness only happens with a round trip. Desmond was fine until he got to the freighter. Maybe Rousseau stayed behind on a try-to-get-off-the-Island attempt due to her pregnancy? And therefore didn't get the sickness.

In addition, we have Faraday introducing two other factors that could contribute to the 'sickness', which are 1) being recently exposed to high levels of electromagnicity, and 2) not having a constant. We can thank Sir Desmond of Guineapigia for those.

@ Mr_Naysayer: Agreed w/ Marley sentiments. I was in Jamaica 3yrs ago on his birthday. Had a slightly good time. Favorite Marley line ever:

'You can fool some people sometimes...But you can't fool all the people all the time.'

Everything seems to be coming back to Smokey..hehehe.

AAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

#479. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at June 6, 2008 3:11 PM

I think there is a growing consensus of this blog community is that there are so many loopholes, wormholes, potholes in logic, common sense, science, and scientific theory to have a comprehensive rational explanation to the show.

Pondering such a mud puddle existence, a flash of irrational thought hit me that makes sense: Richard Alpert, the Eyeliner, is Egyptian! An ancient Egyptian. Painting on a pyramid wall looking Egyptian. We made fun of his appearance, but never asked why he looked that way.

Add to that image the fact that ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs are seen at the two great island mystery places, it made we wonder whether these are the big clues.

We have debated whether there are clones, body doubles, multiple lives, duplicates, ghosts, or zombies as part of the story line. I found this interesting:

In Ancient Egypt, they believed you would use your body in the afterlife. When you died your soul or ba would fly out of your body and spark your double (ka) which would then travel to the otherworld. However, it would need to return to your body, since without the physical body, the ka would die. People would be buried with possession that they would need in the afterlife.

If you were a pharaoh, destined to join the other gods -- not only would you need your body, but all the other accoutrements of status, from gold to slaves. Pyramids served to house this paraphernalia of eternity.

What if the show is not about earth science but the ritual beliefs of a LOST ancient religion? While not purgatory as the TPTB infer, it could be an Egyptian "otherworld" were your spirit body, ka, needs to prepare itself in a spiritual world (that does not follow the rules of time, space, science and physics we know of) to return to the human body it left on Earth.

#480. Posted by: welh at June 6, 2008 3:54 PM

468. hurling: Philly accents - Funny! I grew up right outside the Northeast - In Bucks County. It took me years to lose the accent. It stills comes back at times, especially when I'm mad.

Everyone else goes to the "beach" rather than "down the shore".

#481. Posted by: meg at June 6, 2008 5:01 PM

@ Mr_Naysayer - 452
Let me start by saying... I ALWAYS relate LOST. stuff to real-world stuff. I actually relate EVERYTHING to LOST. Everyone gets really annoyed of me.

AND... I would answer your question about photoshop, but I feel like people might get mad.

BUT, I'm still working on the T-Shirts. Since finals and SAT's are coming up, I haven't had much time lately. Even though somehow I always find time to catch up on posts. But I guess that's because I use my breaks on this.

It's 90 degrees up there? It's only like 82 today and it was 79 yesterday.

I like to be cold... At least at night it gets somewhat cold.

Sorry if all of that was too random for some people.

Just incase the next one is TOO random...

*********RANDOM THOUGHT***********

I realized I'm REALLY GOOD at monopoly.

*******END RANDOM THOUGHT*********

I just noticed how random everyone else was... whatever. I'll leave the tag incase.

@ davidrh - 462
"I’m so confused. Why did I ever tune in on that FIRST "Lost" episode?!?!"

I didn't... when I got my ipod video (in the middle-ish of the first season), I wanted to download a video to see how it looks on my ipod. Itunes only had LOST. and one other show at the time (because ipod videos just came out), and my dad watched LOST. so he told me to download it.

It was love at first sight. I watched it, and I had to have more. So I downloaded all the rest of the episodes that I missed (my dad got mad because of all the money), and I started watching it on TV.

My dad regrets ever telling me to download that pilot episode... and my mom blames him for my obsession.

@ Cecil Rose - 470
"Just do it Mikhail!" - Klugh (sp?)

"Beach Boys. "Good Vibrations." On the keypad, the numbers, they're notes. It was programmed by a musician." - Bonnie

"Para...lyzed...." (aka, Paulo Lies) - Nikki

"I was afraid of losing you. If you found the diamonds...you wouldn't need me anymore." - Paulo

"Wherever you go...Widmore...will find you..." - Keamy

"I'm sorry, Bonnie. I too am following orders." - Mikhail

"I'm sorry George...just tell my sister that I love her." - Naomi

"Tell Shannon...tell her..." - Boone (?)

"All right, we're not gonna take any more of this stuff than we need, because nitroglycerin is extremely temperamental. So we just --" - ARZT!!! (aka, Arznt)

"Walt! Wait!" - Shannon

"The children are fine. They're better off now." - Goodwin

"Michael..." - Libby (?)

"Call him Benjamin." - Emily Linus

"Despite what you may think, I am not the enemy, we are not the enemy. But if you shoot me, that’s exactly what we’ll become." - Colleen (sp?)

"The casing for the equipment is waterproof, it'll keep going forever." - The girl with Bonnie that I forget the name of

"Dad...they're serious. They killed Karl...and my mother... Please, daddy! Just please, please..." - Alex

THIS IS SO FUSTRATING!!! All the other ones are slipping my mind!!! I'm not sure if I should consider that "good" for not cheating... assuming they're right.
---------------

Desmond's Quote... "We're STUCK in a bloody snowglobe".

#482. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 6, 2008 5:17 PM

@482 ilovebenjaminlinusxx scored:

Correct on all, first on 6


See Random topics for remaining Last Words.

#483. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 6, 2008 5:41 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/471 et al
"there's a difference between "berry" & "bury" too (one eats berries, one does not berry dead people ; >). Now how would you render the SE PA pronunciation of "water"? ; )"

So funny! I worked for years with several people from SE PA, and always got into the "Harry" versus "hairy" argument with them (one of the custodians was named Harry)! H-a-rE versus H-A-rE ...

Quite right about how their phonetic superiority fell apart with "water" though ... wah-tuh!

#484. Posted by: ealgumby at June 6, 2008 9:00 PM

Miscellany from D&C on some of the topics we've recently noodled on this blog:

Lindelof: Let's just say, theoretically, inside the Island there was this ball of electromagnetic energy. And, let's just say, there was a group of people - we’ll call them the DHARMA Initiative - sort of drilling around, and doing general futzing on the Island, and they accidentally drilled into this hole, and suddenly that entire ball of electromagnetism became untapped, so they built this Swan Station above it, in an effort that it wouldn’t get completely out of control. So, by plugging that hole, you don’t actually do away with all the electromagnetism. It's still there.

Cuse: It became tapped, actually...Pushing the button was not a psychological experiment. It was actually literally necessary to trigger an electromagnetic discharge. If this electromagnetic discharge did not occur every 108 minutes, then the buildup of electromagnetic forces would actually ultimately create something that could conceivably end the world. There are no mincing words on this topic.

Lindelof: I think the idea of sort of trusting the machine, what if the power goes out, or what if the station gets taken over by the hostiles? You know, it absolutely had to be manned by human beings. Desmond David Hume is solely responsible for the crash of Flight 815.

Cuse: He quit pushing the button, and the electromagnetic forces that built up as a result of him not pushing the button fried the instrumentation on the plane, and caused the plane to become unstable, split in two and plunge to our Island.

Lindelof: One of the things we’re learning is that the Island is very hard to get to, in fact, especially hard to get to safely. So he would have to have a very large magnet pulling a very large metal object towards it in order to get through the barriers defenses. Is that the word we should use?

Cuse: I would say yes, you know, barriers, perhaps.

#485. Posted by: Mizzed at June 6, 2008 9:15 PM

@too many to pick out ...

If the sphere/cylinder surrounding the island included the freighter at the end (and hence eliminating the need to maintain course), then one would assume any (if any) blast survivors (Jin?) would've gone with the island, along with the zodiac ...

But what about the O6 chopper? It was inside the range of both ... wouldn't it have gone along too? Unless there's some very creative geometry going on, they should have gone as well ...

Not going to debate the possibilities, as I write this off to "them not being ready to return to the island yet," much as I wrote off the improbability of the C4 explosion circumstances in #391. It makes me sleep better ...

#486. Posted by: ealgumby at June 6, 2008 9:18 PM

More D&C miscellany, on Alpert, the Others and Egypt:

Cuse: The countdown station in the hatch had uh... hieroglyphic symbols.

Lindelof: Those characters spell out the, uh... the word "underworld". Um... in sort of traditional Egyptian Hieroglyphics.

Cuse: Right, and I think, you know, obviously, the fact that they are hieroglyphics, and we found a four-toed statue, that’s also something from the past. I think you can sort of surmise that there is a history on the Island that predates the DHARMA Initiative and, you know, that were talking about an Island that has been visited.

Lindelof: And that the DHARMA Initiative was giving them a shout-out when they built the countdown clock. Props to the Egyptians and that sort of thing.

(on Alpert..)

Lindelof: There is only one Alpert. Age is all relative on the Island I would say... um... and, uh... we do know that the Island, if it can fix Rose and she has cancer, and it could fix Locke and he was paralyzed, what sort of effect might it have on how cells age, um... you know, is up for interpretation.

(on Others)

Cuse: I think it would be fair to assume that the Others/Hostiles have included people from other groups that have ended up on this island into their ranks so they're not a pure society. They are a society that has incorporated other people into it over time. But there still might be some others on the Island, too.

Lindelof: Yes, there are definitely others on the Island...and Hostiles...

Cuse: Hostile other people on the Island.

Damon Lindelof: ...and ex-members of the DHARMA Initiative.

#487. Posted by: Mizzed at June 6, 2008 9:27 PM

@Mizzed/487

I would love to read this in its entirety ... URL, please?

#488. Posted by: ealgumby at June 6, 2008 9:33 PM

→ 452. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer

Charles Widmore is the original Captain of the BlackRock ship... he hasn't aged (ala Richard Alpert) and that is why he calls the island "his." He was there first...

This is a good guess. Last year I thought it was "Jacob" but now I think it is a real person. next question - even it was "his", should he get it back?

---------------------------
453. Posted by: En Provence
Zombie post. :(

I would not be happy with Zombies showing up, I may have to adjust.....So I was ignoring it.
-----------------------------

→ 422. Posted by: Cecil
And what about Desmond's attempt to sail to Fiji? No mention of any time shift but he just couldn't get there - references to "goldfish bowls".

Yeah, it was a snow globe. How long was he gone?
-----------------------------

→ 467. Posted by: Mizzed
2. Looking back on it, it looks like Rousseau's team was not infected with some kind of disease, but was actually suffering from the same kind of time-shift madness that killed many of the people on the freighter.

Exactly! How come I didn't think of that? This is why I come here.
----------------------------

#489. Posted by: berkyo at June 6, 2008 9:34 PM

ealgumby:

the last two posts were taken from their commentary that was available only on the blue-ray version of the season 3 DVD. I posted a very abridged version- you can read the entire transcripts on Lostpedia at this url:

http://tinyurl.com/6doqq5

#490. Posted by: Mizzed at June 6, 2008 9:49 PM

→ 468. hurling: Philly accents:

W/my mom's entire family being from Philly, I got a kick from your list of "Mary, marry, & merry" & "dawn & don"—so true! And there's a difference between "berry" & "bury" too (one eats berries, one does not berry dead people ; >). Now how would you render the SE PA pronunciation of "water"? ; )
→ 471. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

And drawer and crayon too. 5th and Diamond streets a loooong time ago.
---------------------------

"down the shore".
→ 481. Posted by: meg

I still say that! From Close to Corning NY.

#491. Posted by: berkyo at June 6, 2008 9:54 PM

@Mizzed/490

Much thanks!

As an aside, I'd appreciate your commentary on my thoughts posted under the "Random Topics" thread #95 ...

Thanks again for the link ...

#492. Posted by: ealgumby at June 6, 2008 9:55 PM

→ 467. Posted by: Mizzed

Funny you should mention Henry. While everyone else is pondering over complex theories about time travel and worm holes etc. The thing that I wonder about is ...

Who buried the real Henry Gale???

That's been driving me crazy for 2 seasons now.

Thanks for the name suggestions! I would never want to disrespect Crispy Seaplanes by stealing part of his awesome name, however after a few more trips to the waterpark with my kids I may well be "Crispy Christine."

#493. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at June 6, 2008 9:57 PM

Anyone with a better VCR than I - not hard to find - what are the pictures in Hurley's Santa Rosa room? I cannot get a look at them. Anything interesting?

#494. Posted by: berkyo at June 6, 2008 10:10 PM

re: Zombies (mentioned a dozen times already).

Did not a lot of the zombie talk revolve around Nikki & Paolo? As I remember it... they were dead-ish, but still alive, after being bitten.

[ Maybe Claire took a bite from a Medusa Spider. ]

#495. Posted by: DocH at June 7, 2008 12:17 AM

I just caught an interesting supposition over on another Lost Blog where the writer suggests that when Claire tells Kate (in the dream) “Don’t you DARE take him back” , that the writers - who do this a lot - are actually leading the viewers in a wrong direction.

He suggests that it’s NOT Aaron whom Claire is talking about, but rather either Ben or John Locke. I don’t remember this being discussed on our blog. Any comments?

#496. Posted by: davidrh at June 7, 2008 9:01 AM

→ 490. Posted by: Mizzed

Thanks. I go to Lostpedia often to figure things out but I forgot that the scripts are there.
--------------------------------
485. Posted by: Mizzed
Is that the word we should use?

Cuse: I would say yes, you know, barriers, perhaps.

See how devious and tricky they are? barriers. A snow globe is a good description of a shield for the island.

#497. Posted by: berkyo at June 7, 2008 11:44 AM

ok, I am beginning to be comfortable with the island NOT moving but the ENTRANCE to the snow globe moving. (Therefore it is entirely wrong)

When I heard the were going to move the island, I surmised that the Black Rock could have been sailing along when an island came up from beneath it, like in the Abyss - one really good movie.

But if the island does not move, then how the heck did the ship get so far inland?

The island could have gotten bigger, I guess, or the volcano on the island - which we have not seen yet, right? erupted and caused a tsunami type action to sweep it there. Or did some island builduing as in Hawaii.

Hey! how about Krakatoa? it erupted in 1883 and the black rock sailed away for the last time in 1845. Close enough. Maybe I answered my own question.

#498. Posted by: berkyo at June 7, 2008 11:53 AM

Well, if I had looked at a map of Krakatoa I would have seen is on the other side of the Indonesian archipelago if that is what it is. So while it may have kicked up the surf a bit, it would not send a tidal wave in the direction of the Lost Island.

So how did the Black Rock get there?

#499. Posted by: berkyo at June 7, 2008 12:20 PM

Althoooooooough......
this photo from the article listed at this url looks a lot like the Black Rock sitting up on Lost inland.

http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Krakatau.htmlOther

"ships in Lampong Bay were not as lucky. The wave lifted the steamship Berouw up the Koeripan River valley, depositing the ship over a mile inland, thirty feet above sealevel, killing all 28 of its crew members."

#500. Posted by: berkyo at June 7, 2008 12:24 PM

It is sooooo hot here (89 and humid) and I have been in the garden - too much sun. So I am cooling in the breeze and thinking about my favorite lost artifact.

On the blast door map it says:
“stationwide failure of dharmatel intranet 4.08.00 8.15.01 01.06.03” – (6:00 position)

I am noting this because someone asked about the different people that have landed in the island. Do these dates match up with times when the numbers were not/Could not be pushed and so the island would be open to pull in whatever was nearby? Unless you happened on the correct course, you could not gain access to the place. As long as the orchid door was the only way in. When the umbers were not entered by Desmond, 815 crashed. Maybe these other times, when dharmatel was down, the stations were also down and that caused the balloon to land and Desmond's boat to land. Do these dates coincide? Anybody else cooling off?

#501. Posted by: berkyo at June 7, 2008 12:55 PM

We lost power and TV during the bad storm that came through last week. When power came back on, but still with no TV, I started to watch S1. I've gotten through 8 or 9 episodes and have noticed some stuff that I hadn't before. During these first episodes, before the Others came into play, the Losties used the words "the others" quite a bit...referring to the rest of the survivors whenever they were apart from the pack. Also, when the small group first heard Danielle's looping SOS call...they agreed to lie, so "the others" do not lose hope... I find it curious that now we have the O6 finding themselves having to lie again to protect those still on the island.

Then..there's Locke. He confided to Walt during Pilot 1 episode about his miraculous recovery from paralysis and therefore believed that the island was magical. I didn't remember this either...that he knew what to do whenever something came up. He worked in an office...in a cubicle...and disrepected by his punky, younger than him boss and yet he had all these survival skills. He knew how to trap a boar, slit its throat and skin it clean without batting an eye. When they were running low on water on the beach, he went to look for water because he said that he KNEW where to look for water...how...? Has he been there before...did he already have some kind of knowledge of the island in his subconscious...? I'd like to think that from first episode of S1 to the finale of S4 the writers have everything connected and we didn't realize what we were seeing during S1. I thought that it was entertaining and great story lines, etc, but so interesting to go back and watch from the start and to see what is likely the beginning of the story that is baffling us today.

Also, in S1, Claire's accent is not as prevalent as in future episodes. I don't think it means anything...just thought about it since there was some discussion about her lack of an accent in Kate's dream...

#502. Posted by: boodle at June 7, 2008 2:47 PM

Big Name James re post 374

someone finally had the guts to say
it. good for you.

#503. Posted by: lostwithoutmarchmadness at June 7, 2008 4:04 PM

498/berkyo: "But if the island does not move, then how the heck did the ship get so far inland?"

One idea is that because Magnus Hanso was trying to exploit the island, that someone used the FDW to move and protect it, and in that process the Black Rock was displaced.

Since the Hanso family was also involved in the Dharma Initiative, perhaps there has been a 150 year long "war" of control over the island?

502/boodle: "Has he (Locke) been there before...did he already have some kind of knowledge of the island in his subconscious...?"

We saw in his high school locker a picture of the famous explorer, Richard Burton. The old Locke seemed to be an example of the type of person who becomes an expert by reading about the world but never goes anywhere (think William Hurt's character in The Accidental Tourist).

Once he got to the island, I think he seized on the opportunity to reinvent himself and to become the rugged explorer he had always dreamed of being.

503/lostwithoutmarchmadness: "Big Name James re post 374. someone finally had the guts to say it. good for you."

Your post made me think of Cecil's recent comments about the anonymity of the internet. It's always easier to be critical than to contribute something meaningful yourself.

Some people respond to Lost by connecting with the basic plot, or because they enjoy the characters. Others are intrigued by the possibilities of the science presented. Others respond to the spiritual and mythological references, while others are interested in the way TPTB are telling the story and how they interact with the viewers. I think most of us probably connect on multiple levels.

The beauty of the internet is that you control the experience. If you don't like someone's post, you can either a. not read it, or b. write an intelligent response.

#504. Posted by: Mizzed at June 7, 2008 8:34 PM

@501 berkyo complained:

>It is sooooo hot here (89 and humid) and I have been in the garden - too much sun.

Try 103 and humid here in beautiful centreal North Carolina.

>So I am cooling in the breeze and thinking about my favorite lost artifact.

I give, what's your favorite Lost artifact?

#505. Posted by: Cecol Rose at June 8, 2008 9:33 AM

I give, what's your favorite Lost artifact?
→ 505. Posted by: Cecol Rose

You are kidding right? the Blast Door.

It got to 98 here in the very woody rural northern tier of Pa., but the humidity must have way over 100. Sweating even in the shade. BUT the peas finally came up! For a cold weather crop, they were not happy with our cool wet spring. Now all the rain is in mid country and we have none when I could use it.
------------------------------
504 Mizzed
One idea is that because Magnus Hanso was trying to exploit the island, that someone used the FDW to move and protect it, and in that process the Black Rock was displaced.

I am soooooo stupid. What is FWD? Four wheel drive? Did ships back then have that? I wonder if it was air conditioned too?

#506. Posted by: berkyo at June 8, 2008 9:50 AM

@berkyo/506
"I give, what's your favorite Lost artifact?
→ 505. Posted by: Cecol Rose

You are kidding right? the Blast Door."

Here I thought your passion was limited just to the blast door diagram/map, with all its wonderful lines, circles, and cryptic comments ... yet now we find you are enamoured of the entire door! Then again, with its industrial-strength rivets and Locke-crushing ability, the door deserves more credit than simply serving as the diagram's canvas ... ;)

FDW = frozen donkey wheel

#507. Posted by: ealgumby at June 8, 2008 10:55 AM

Ealgumby/464 A fan get together sounds fun, anyone else in the DC area interested?

Hurling/468 True, but you pronounce wudder/water and Eagles/Iggles exactly the same, so that would get confusing for non-northeasterners!

It's 94 today in muggy DC (with a heat index of 99), which is a tad cooler than yesterday was. Tomorrow it's supposed to be 98 iwth a heat index of about 103. I'm not putting on my tie until I get to work and inside the building tomorrow, that's for sure!

#508. Posted by: FenwayBen at June 8, 2008 3:12 PM

Question:

When Walt visits Hurley in the mental hospital he says, "I don't understand why everyone is lying" Hurley tells him that it's to protect the people who didn't get off the island. then Walt asks, "like my dad?"

If Walt wasn't talking to his dad, why does he think that Michael returned to the island? Actually, Michael didn't return to the island and he never intended to, so he would not have said that to anyone before leaving. If Walt did know anything it would be that Michael was part of a crew on a random freighter....and not that it was connected to finding the island. the only thing I can think of is that maybe Bentham/Locke told Walt everything when he visited him. Does that mean that Michael and Jin might have made it to the island? And Bentham was telling Walt that his dad was still there? Was there a clue in Walt's conversation with Hurley?

#509. Posted by: Skipper at June 8, 2008 7:40 PM

509. Posted by: Skipper - actually i took it to mean protect michael's reputation. if he never made it to the island, he could not have killed anyone. right?

of course, i could be entirely off base and locke might have told him that his father is on the island and in danger in order to get him to go back. speaking of that...how did locke know how to find walt? can't really see michael offering up the information.

#510. Posted by: surefoot at June 8, 2008 8:09 PM

Walt was living with his grandmother, not in the witness protection program. I'm sure Locke would be smart enough to track him down.

Plus didn't Tom know all about Michael's life back on the mainland? I wouldn't be surprised if Richard Alpert ahd a file full of Walt's information ready to hand to Locke when the time was right.

#511. Posted by: FenwayBen at June 8, 2008 8:59 PM


hmmmmm . . Looks like we're going "dead in the water" here . . .

#512. Posted by: davidrh at June 9, 2008 6:20 PM

Mac, have you been turning the Frozen Donkey Wheel under this Blog again? I just had a vision of me on the beach with a bottle of Dharma rum and davidrh emerging topless from the surf.

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

...said davidrh. :)

#513. Posted by: Clementine at June 9, 2008 8:04 PM


Clementine? . . .

"wink" "wink"

#514. Posted by: davidrh at June 9, 2008 8:25 PM

FDW = Frozen Dharma Waffles (Leggo my Dharmo)
FDW = Fascist Doppelganger Widmore
FDW = Former Drug Warlord (Eko)
FDW = Filleted Dorrit Well (Lockes' Knife)
FDW = Faraday Denies Wisdom
FDW = Fernandez - Diamond Wench (Nikki)
FDW = Frank Drops Wifi (Sat Phone)
FDW = Feral Dumpy Wizard (Ben)
FDW = Faithful Dentists' Wife (Rose)
FDW = Failed Dad Wannabe (Jack)
FDW = Feels Dead Whispers (Miles)
FDW = Fraud, Deceit, Women (Sawyer)
FDW = Feels Darn Worthless (Hurley)

#515. Posted by: MorBid0 at June 9, 2008 8:48 PM

→ 484. ealgumby & 508. FenwayBen: Pennsylvanianese:

I put a response to this in the Random Topics thread...

→ 515. MorBid0: Alternate meanings for FDW:

Personally I thought Feral Dumpy Ben was funny, but you know ILBLXX & meg will be gunning for you now!
; )

#516. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 9, 2008 9:32 PM

→ 515. Posted by: MorBid0
Very funny. Frozen Dharma Waffles was my favorite. Some more:

FDW = Formerly Dead Weight (Paolo)
FDW = Foregoes Dating Women (Tom)
FDW = Finds Desmond's Woman (Charlie)
FDW = Faces Dilemmas Wisely (Locke)
FDW = Follows Dimwittedly, Why? (Locke)
FDW = Finesses Diabolical Words (Ben)
FDW = Finds Dharma Wormhole? (Faraday)
FDW = Flabbergasted, Dreams Wildly (Kate)
FDW = Freaky Downunder Witch? (Claire)
FDW = Feels Death's Warmth (Michael)

#517. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at June 9, 2008 10:58 PM

FDW - (a) few dead writeoffs - all the redshirts

#518. Posted by: surefoot at June 9, 2008 11:41 PM

@471 - Alaïs_Longthought
'great little roadside tavern' is just south of Brattleboro in Vernon, enjoy your trip, stop in :-) Hazy Hot and Humid here right now, I love it.

@Scooby-Dude
'FDW = Freaky Downunder Witch? (Claire)'

Love it!

#519. Posted by: lostinVT at June 10, 2008 8:31 AM

Hi Everyone!

I created a random topic post to house the off-topic discussions during the long, long hiatus. You can find it here:

http://tinyurl.com/5lo5n6

#520. Posted by: mac at June 10, 2008 9:01 AM

Great gosh a-mighty Lord o' Goshen I go on vacation for a week and come back to over 500 posts and it's taken me three days to wade through 'em. I'm beat!

Whoooof...Thank Ja I dint think I was a-gonna make it for a while there when gumby and jimmy were writing their names in the snow. Cracked me the hell up it did.

Now, if I may be so bold as to post a coupla mindless thoughts (don't see why I should refrain...) so late to the party...

joepike #195 mentioned something about Benji Linus, and that clicked something in my meager grey matter... John Locke strikes me not so much as Obi-wan as he does Charlie Brown what with his baldness and all. And Ben (Linus) keeps teeing up that football (a la Lucy) and then keeps snapping it away. Good Grief! And Vincent as Snoopy with the Hurley Bird as Woodstock.

And maybe Bentham isn't dead...it's a Lost Combo Meal of Sawyer pulling a long con and Locke on the receiving end of a Medusa Spider bite. I have a very bad feeling that the whole Paolikki Experience is going to become somehow significant. Sure hope the funeral director is in on it or Locke's getting himself embalmed...

Re. the TPTB acronym...mines a little racy so I'll clean it up a tad...Per Desmond gazing lovingly at his longlost Constant, "Them's Penny's Ta-ta's, Bruthuh."

Any midwesterners out yonder?

Talk aboutcher hot...just got back from WDW...now that was bloody hot amigos.

#521. Posted by: ransomjackson at June 10, 2008 1:09 PM

@521
>>Talk aboutcher hot...just got back from WDW...now that was bloody hot amigos.


ohhh Disney World needs a Lost ride! How awesome would that be?

*Donkey Farris wheel
*It's a Small World (and we all knew each other before the island) ride
*Jungle Cruise (actual ride)
*Pirates of the Black Rock (Caribbean)
*"James" Sawyer Island (Tom)
*Tomorrowland Speedway (actual ride)

wow, I was only kidding at first, but when I looked up a list of all the rides at Walt Disney World I found a bunch of connections to Lost characters. I mean, "Jungle Cruise" and "Pirates" and "Tom Sawyer" and "Small World". I can't make this stuff up, folks.

#522. Posted by: Skipper at June 10, 2008 1:33 PM

Kudos, Skipper - I can't believe I missed the obvious connections. Musta bin the blisters and the heat stroke and the inevitable family in-fighting that distracted me.

Criminy...Lost...ABC...Disney...I feel such the idiot.

"A pox upon me for a clumsy lout!"

#523. Posted by: ransomjackson at June 10, 2008 2:12 PM

FDW = Flipping Dharma Well

OR

FDW = Freakish Doll (in) Wisconsin

#524. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 11, 2008 11:50 AM

Lost Sesson 5 = Weekend at Bernies?

#525. Posted by: Emz at June 12, 2008 12:16 AM

Ok, I got it now. FDW.

#526. Posted by: berkyo at June 13, 2008 1:57 PM

I was thinking that if Ben also means to return to the island will he suffer the same fate as Desmond did with the time shift? Desmonds episodes are always crazy, he was exposed to the effects of the electromagnetics, so was Ben when he turned the FDW. I would bet that Bens need for a constant would be an amazing and insightful episode.

#527. Posted by: Black Rock N Roll at June 14, 2008 11:28 AM

→ 527. Posted by: Black Rock N Roll

Well, the magnetic emission was at the Swan and I assumed, maybe wrongly, that that solved when Desmond turned the key.
i think the Orchid's FDW (see, I know what it is) was in a different spot and maybe dose not cause the same problems.

Don't know who would be a constant for Ben.

#528. Posted by: berkyo at June 14, 2008 3:14 PM

If EVER there was an opportunity for a WGNABB surely it would be Faraday and his gang of extras sitting in that dingy thinking oh...my...me...

#529. Posted by: Black Rock N Roll at June 15, 2008 3:17 PM

Or maybe just WGNAB

#530. Posted by: Black Rock N Roll at June 15, 2008 3:19 PM

Ok: I've read every post.
Question:
Can a person post if his IQ is under 165?
Seems like this place is crowded with those fancy pants people.

I bet ealgumby doesn't believe in the trickle down theory either !

My only thought is how does Ben get to Tunisa? I think when he crawles back out of the cave he's in the desert and then passes out.

Also don't know why they would have to take dead John Locke back with them if he was not going to come back alive.

I think we should take a vote so the writers will know whether or not to make him undead.


#531. Posted by: SamFin at June 16, 2008 10:58 PM

→ 531. SamFin, & everyone else grumbling about the high IQs here:

Y'know, my parents taught me that if I didn't have anything nice to say that I shouldn't say anything at all. 95% of us who post here work really hard at keeping "mac's house" free of rudeness, insults, & flames. If you prefer a site w/those qualities, there are plenty of them out there on the Web. However, if you prefer posting here, we'd prefer you to keep criticisms of other posters to yourselves & confine your comments to aspects of LOST itself. It's simple good manners.

#532. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 16, 2008 11:55 PM

@532 Alaïs...

Gee, it's insulting to accuse someone of a high IQ? And here I thought that you.... oh, never mind...

#533. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 17, 2008 10:40 AM

But, seriously, go easy on SamFin, he's a long time poster here, and I don't think was intenting to dis anybody. Just a little amazed at the intellectual level of conjecture - s am I sometimes. Awed even.

#534. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 17, 2008 10:43 AM

→ 533 & 534. Cecil Rose: I know what you mean, Cecil...of course it *shouldn't* be insulting to tell someone he/she has a high IQ, but the context of the comments about it from posters hasn't had the connotation of a compliment. Yes, SamFin's been around for a while, & perhaps the comment about "fancy pants people" was meant in a joking manner, but w/o seeing body language & hearing voice intonation, it didn't come across that way (note: emoticons can be your friends ; ) ). And as far as my own IQ, whatever it is, it's sure not as high as that of a number of posters here, & I'm grateful that I can take advantage of their knowledge to make up the slack! : )

#535. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 17, 2008 1:13 PM

→ 533. Cecil Rose: And BTW, thanks for the compliment of assuming I have a high IQ...but you know what they say about assuming... ; > ; > ; >

#536. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 17, 2008 1:17 PM

Question: Can a person post if his IQ is under 165?
→ 531. Posted by: SamFin
Confine your comments to aspects of LOST itself. It's simple good manners.
→ 532. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

Maybe because my IQ is nowhere near some of you, I actually thought SamFin was complimenting all the smart people who post here. Seems to me he was humbling, not grumbling.

#537. Posted by: lovelost at June 17, 2008 2:21 PM

Well ok so I was really trying to be funny and never did get used to the :) thingy's. Been reading this blog for several years and would never post anything bad about anybody about anything.

#538. Posted by: SamFin at June 17, 2008 9:00 PM

If I post three times my cumulative IQ must surely approach the 165 threshhold...

I am so smart, I am so smart, S M R T, I mean S M A R T. -Homer Simpson

#539. Posted by: ransomjackson at June 18, 2008 8:57 AM

→ 538. SamFin: My apologies for misunderstanding you so thoroughly...obviously my EQ needs some work!

#540. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 18, 2008 1:06 PM

Is there a Viagra product for IQ?

#541. Posted by: davidrh at June 18, 2008 4:54 PM

@SamFin/531 & 538
"I bet ealgumby doesn't believe in the trickle down theory either!"

No worries, I gotcha!

But you're quite wrong about my belief in the "trickle down" theory ... from 2nd grade urinal graffiti I still recall quite vividly: No matter how much you jiggle and dance, there's always a drop left for your pants!

#542. Posted by: ealgumby at June 18, 2008 6:13 PM

@Alaïs_Longthought/540
"obviously my EQ needs some work!"

Thanks for your previous consideration nonetheless (if I may be so bold) ... your EQ is fine from my perspective! ;)

#543. Posted by: ealgumby at June 18, 2008 6:48 PM

@SamFin/531
"Also don't know why they would have to take dead John Locke back with them if he was not going to come back alive."

Pure speculation, but suggest he needs to be brought back in order to attain Obi Wan/Anakin status (i.e., Christian) on the island ... in other words, Terry O'Quinn hasn't lost his job ...

#544. Posted by: ealgumby at June 18, 2008 8:31 PM

@541 davidrh wondered:

>Is there a Viagra product for IQ?

1) Pick up book
2) Read
3) Repeat as necessary

#545. Posted by: Cecil at June 18, 2008 9:14 PM

I didn't take SamFin's comment as an insult. I found it funny.

I actually do surprisingly have a high IQ... not nearly as high as any of you though.

I seriously think all of you make me smarter. =]

#546. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 19, 2008 9:55 AM

@546 ilovebenjaminlinusxx
Thanks and I would like to say you are like a breath of fresh air on this here blog. Did you know I have grandbabies as old as you ! And just as smart too!

@Alais_Longthought. no problem I think sometimes we don't realize the different backgrounds of some of us.

Like I'm older than Cecil and believe me that's old ! Actually in my 60's and live in....wait for it Kansas ! I don't even know anybody that has flamed anybody. This is the only blog I've ever posted on so I don't read some of the flames and such so it just didn't occure to me that anybody could take my post wrong.

I actually love ealgumby's posts and can follow most of what he says.
His only bad post was when he reminded pointed out that my great theory on John Locke was more wishful thinking that fact !!

Anyway love this blog...and Cecil thanks for standing up for me ! also the best one word post ever.

"INCOMING!"

#547. Posted by: SamFin at June 19, 2008 2:12 PM

@SamFin

Wow not only are you older than me, sounds like you beat out DavidRH for grandpappy of the blog. I think his birthday is in Dec. '45. (Mar '46 here).

#548. Posted by: Cecil at June 19, 2008 8:31 PM

I accidently posted this on the Random Topic thread.

SamFin -- Thanks!

I feel really young right now. There's NOBODY here around my age? How about someone in their 20's or something?

Now I feel "out of the loop". Ha...ha.

#549. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 19, 2008 9:28 PM

@ Drum roll ---- And the Winner is !!!!! DavidRH for oldest !

Cecil I got you by at least 2 months Jan ‘46 and got an early start on the marriage ’67.

My 2 oldest grandbabies are both 16.


@ilovebenjaminlinusxx Sorry about you being so young and all must be a real drag !!!

I’ve been thinking I will have to take better care of my self or I might not make it until 2010 !!

although if I don't make it I might be able to get a red- shirt job as a "I'm dead but I'm here too" person on Lost.

#550. Posted by: SamFin at June 19, 2008 11:05 PM

@550 SamFin noted:

>I’ve been thinking I will have to take better care of my self or I might not make it until 2010 !!

>although if I don't make it I might be able to get a red- shirt job as a "I'm dead but I'm here too" person on Lost.

You know how Thomas Jeffereson and John Adams both died on the same day - July 4, 1826, the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence? Though old and ailing, both clung to life until that significant date for them.

So I wonder how many elderly "Lost" fans - not that *we* are in this category, of course - will stretch thing out until the last Thursday of May, 2010? "I can go now, children, I've seen 'The End'"

#551. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 20, 2008 10:15 AM

Looks like I'm the "youngest oldie" here (Dec '46)...so far anyway. I sure hope Mac will continue to host all of us through May 2010.

#552. Posted by: lovelost at June 25, 2008 6:12 PM

I don't know if this has been mentioned before (too many posts to read through) but I may have any idea on how the "Black Rock" ended up so far inland.

Maybe the last time the island was moved it reappeared underneathe the sailing vessel and therefore it came to rest in the middle of a jungle as it is now.

Because other than a possible compass malfunction the old slave ship did not have any other machines to go wrong and steer the ship to the island by mistake and somehow "wash" in from the shore that far.

I LOVE THIS SHOW AND THIS BLOG AND ALL OF YOU GREAT BLOGGER'S OUT THERE!!!

#553. Posted by: Christina at June 26, 2008 4:39 PM

@553 Christina speculated:

>Maybe the last time the island was moved it reappeared underneathe the sailing vessel and therefore it came to rest in the middle of a jungle as it is now.

Anything's possible, at least until D&C collapse the probaility functions. Still, leaning on the slender thread of their promise that everything has a rational explanation, I tend to doubt that the island submarines under the ocean.

Of course there's no rational way an island (in other than geologic time, st least) can move at all, so I'm liking the speculation that perhaps the island is 'elsewhere' (other dimension, alternate world, oaround other star, etc.) and that what actually moves is the portal/passage/link between the island and our planet.

I hope that, in two years, it'll all be tied up neatly. With a bow. By the tooth fairy.

#554. Posted by: Cecil at June 26, 2008 5:51 PM

Apologies if this has been mentioned before ............

Re: speculation about Jin not surviving. I recall that as Sun was giving birth to their daughter Jin was buying a toy panda - we supposed for HIS newborn and trying to get to the hospital, this was interspersed with scenes of Sun in labour and asking for her husband. When Jin arrived at the hospital he asked what sex the baby was and was told it was a boy (we knew at this point that Sun had given birth to a baby girl) Jin then tied a blue ribbon round the toy panda's neck and handed it to a man saying that it was given with regards from Mr Paik. As Jin leaves the hospital he has a brief conversation with a nurse and when asked why he is leaving so soon he comments that it wasn't his child he was visiting and that he'd only been married two months.

I felt that this was evidence that Jin survived - if as it appeared the stories were in real time together - and that he was married to someone else (having survived the explosion and escaped the Island) and somehow or other has no memory of Sun. If this doesn't make sense it's because it's a load of rubbish and/or very late here!

Love the blog, glad I found it.

#555. Posted by: Laura at June 26, 2008 10:10 PM

Back tracking a bit now - yes I see what has been said regarding that episode - but I still think that Jin isn't dead and he and Sun WERE in the same hospital at the same time!Sun believes Jin to be dead after the explosion hence grave that she and Hurley visit. Time will tell.

#556. Posted by: Laura at June 26, 2008 10:21 PM

@Laura/556

For those of us poseurs who have only been here for a year or two, I must give a shout out to Laura ...

I went back to the Season 1 blogs (when comments were mostly in single digits), and
noticed the first regulars still around (forgive me if I missed you) were Laura(3rd), Christina(2nd), and James(1st ... please tell me you're not BNJ).

Wow ... now that's some longevity/devotion!

Map pins?

#557. Posted by: ealgumby at July 11, 2008 12:03 AM

@ ealgumby - #557

I have been a long time reader/poster of this blog since the very beginning. I don't post as often as i would like but most of my theories and questions come up anyway by all of the great bloggers out there on Mac's site.

I have briefly looked at some of the other sites and this one is, by far, the best. Mac does a great job of rehashing all the drama of each episode that it is a real treat to read the following day.

I love this show and will continue to hang in there until it goes off the air.

#558. Posted by: Christina at July 11, 2008 2:23 PM

@ ealgumby - #557

Alas, I am not the original Laura. A, very, late-comer to this blog - but loving it deeply!(and an admirer of your posts). My post was in hindsight dumb and added little if anything to the general high quality of this blog - well it was very late and I'd read EVERY post on this episode, and much more later. Had JUST seen the 4th series when I posted - (please don't tell a soul) - I borrowed all 4 series and watched, in almost orgasmic bliss, right from the beginning again before I watched series 4. Toddler and newborn allowing of course. Have enjoyed this blog whenever I get a chance and, like you all, eagerly anticipate the next series. Will keep reading and learning until then!

p.s Still think Jin is alive and kicking!


#559. Posted by: Laura at July 11, 2008 4:38 PM

@559 Laura:

Your posts were well thought out and interesting to read. Keep em' coming. And in the off season, come on over to the Hiatus Random Topics blog and let us know how life's treating you outside of Lost.

And drop a pin on the map over at the reader map:

www.filmfodder.com/tv/lost/archives/004607.shtml

Caution: add a name, comment or picture or Frapper eventually scrubs your pin from the map. You also get to register your choice of favorite character by choice of map pin color. Well, within the limited number of shapes/colors we had available, anyway.

#560. Posted by: Cecil Rose at July 11, 2008 5:06 PM

@ 560 Cecil Rose

You're too kind, thank you for being so sweet and forgiving of my naive first post.

I think my belief in Jin surviving the explosion is more from a hopeless romantic (and post-partum rose-tinted emotional hope)that true love really does conquer all - even in the weird and wonderful minds of the creators of Lost - than from any other conviction.

Trying to avoid hearing anything about series 4 before I got to see it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do - was so worth the wait.

Will add myself to map too - thanks for link.

What a happy blog - shall recommend it to all my constants!

Regards, Laura.


#561. Posted by: Laura at July 11, 2008 6:13 PM

@561 Laura:

I guarantee EVERY one of us was knock-kneed and trembling over that first post. Will they ridicule me? Will they throw things? And there are places on the net where those things can happen, but not here. We try to keep it friendly here, maintaining the tone mac's set.

So all you lurkers - and there are supposed to be anywhere from 200 to a thousand for every one that posts - come on in - share the fun.

And over on the "Random Topics - Hiatus Edition" blog we'll keep the chatter up - on Lost and other things - 'till Season 5 breaks upon us. And never a spoiler shall slip past our fingers.

#562. Posted by: Cecil Rose at July 14, 2008 8:29 PM

EDIT: Post removed because it was an NC17 comment on a PG13 blog. Sorry.

#563. Posted by: removed at July 16, 2008 1:12 PM

Cool blog
Thanks, webmaster.

#564. Posted by: Ipod Nana at August 25, 2008 9:07 PM

Amazine site
Thanks, webmaster.

#565. Posted by: recording digital cable at August 26, 2008 7:32 AM

4-13 There's No Place Like Home (2)

Mercenaries die,
Helicopters fly, but then
The freighter goes Boom!


4-14 There's No Place Like Home (3)

Ben turns a frozen
Donkey wheel, which then makes all
The island go "Bloop!"

#566. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 10, 2009 6:10 PM