The Lost Blog

Key Points from "316"

Season 5, Episode 6
Episode Air Date: 02/18/09

Point 1
Jack

Mrs. Hawking
I'm not sure how I felt about this episode. On one hand, we got a lot of information through Mrs. Hawking's rapid-fire expository scene in the Lamp Post station (I'm a sucker for zippy exposition), but on the other, we got a verrrrry convenient Oceanic 6 reunion and an easy return to the island. I guess I thought it would be tougher ... and given "Lost's" history of showing you one thing and then revealing the 1.5 billion other things behind that one thing, we may eventually learn that the easy-peasy island getaway was actually quite arduous (ie -- What really happened when Jack opened Locke's suicide note?).

Nitpicks aside, there's plenty to discuss. Let's begin with a quick refresher on "How to Get Your Ass Back to the Island":

  • Step 1: Have Mrs. Hawking show you her super-retro subterranean Dharma station (I'm pretty sure the Lamp Post is our first confirmed off-island Dharma hub). Inside, her phalanx of 128k mainframes are crunching up-to-the-second latitude and longitude figures so the island's next location can be determined (it can also track Margaritaville). It's nearly impossible to find the island's current location because that jumpy little land mass is in constant motion, but thanks to electromagnetic pockets, fuzzy math and a giant pendulum, Mrs. Hawking and her trusty TRS-80s can pinpoint the island's next location.
  • Step 2: Get the band back together. The island is anal about return visits, so it's important you re-create the details from your maiden trip. This means rounding up the old crew -- Jack, Kate, Sun, Hurley, Sayid, Dead Locke; with Ben, Frank Lapidus and a few newbies thrown in for extra flavor -- and booking a flight with a specific trajectory (Ajira Airways flight 316, Los Angeles to Guam, should do the trick).

    Important Travel Advisory: Sloppiness and oversights -- like neglecting to bring the kid who was born on the island -- can lead to "unpredictable" results.

  • Step 3: Proxify the dead guy. Since your dead daddy was socked away in Oceanic 815's cargo hold during Trip No. 1, you're going to need to adorn your new dead guy (Locke) with something once owned by the old dead guy (Dr. Christian Shephard). I'm not entirely sure why dead guys need to share clothes, but that's the rule and we're sticking to it.
  • Step 4: Go first class. Coach passengers tend to get sucked from cracked fuselages or become inevitable casualties during mercenary attacks and flaming-arrow battles. Be safe. Live large.
  • Step 5: If someone gives you a suicide note, read the friggin' thing.
  • Step 6: Enjoy the trip and holla at your boy Jacob when you arrive.
Point 2
Jack

Kate
We've seen the island pull strings before -- most notably with Michael's thwarted suicide attempts in "Meet Kevin Johnson" -- but it really outdoes itself in this episode. Examples:
  • Jack needs to procure something once owned by Dr. Christian Shephard, which initially seems problematic since Dr. Daddy's body has three years' worth of decay at this point. But lo and behold, Jack receives a call from the retirement home from which his heretofore unintroduced grandfather, Ray, has just tried to escape (again). And Ray -- what are the chances?! -- has a spiffy pair of Christian Shephard's old dress shoes just lying around.
  • With Dr. Daddy's shoes tucked safely away, Jack returns to his dark, Spartan home to enjoy one more night of off-island self loathing. But inside he finds Kate (Convenient!), without Aaron (Looking Good!), and she's a big ol' mess of nerves and hormones (FTW!). Castaway sex ensues. Sadly, it fails to eclipse bear cage sex.

  • The real clincher: everyone (minus Aaron) makes the flight, even hold-outs like Sayid and Hurley.
Again, the ease with which all of this came together makes me think something wicked this way comes. We know Jack, Kate and Hurley return to the island safely, but what happened to Sun, Sayid, Lapidus, Ben and Locke? Where are they? When are they?
Point 3
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "We're not going to Guam, are we?" -- Frank Lapidus to Jack.
  • Second Best Line: "Oh, stop thinking how ridiculous it is!" -- Mrs. Hawking, hitting Jack (and "Lost" doubters) with much-needed perspective.
  • The biggest/most obvious questions: Who/what convinced Hurley to get on Ajira 316? How did Sayid get arrested (Ben, most likely)? Who beat up Ben (Sayid, most likely)? When did Hurley start playing guitar ... or, was the guitar case some sort of Charlie Pace talisman? How will Aaron reach the island? Could an ill-fated trip to Disneyworld -- by way of Tallahassee, Fla. -- suck him through the same electromagnetic pocket that brought Locke's dad, Cooper, to the island?

  • In case you missed it, Jack = Doubting Thomas.
  • Speaking as an editor, I want to commend John Locke for the restraint he showed in his suicide note: "Jack, I wish you had believed me. JL." It's clear and blunt, yet compelling enough to trigger the island's tractor beam.
  • Mrs. Hawking tells Desmond that the island isn't done with him. That's crap. This guy pressed that damn button for three years straight, and then went the extra mile by blowing up the hatch, and still the island demands more? I hope the final image in the series' final scene is Desmond, leaning from an airborne rescue helicopter's door, peeing his name into the island's sand.
  • Daniel must have a quirky relationship with his mom. Mrs. Hawking doesn't seem remotely concerned to hear Desmond's message from her stranded son.
  • We finally know why Dr. Christian Shephard always wears white tennis shoes. Jack tells Kate he put the shoes on his old man's corpse because he figured no one would ever see them tucked inside the casket. Three-plus years of haunting seem justified now.
  • Ben reads Ulysses on the plane. His martyr complex knows no bounds.
  • "X-Files" fans may remember Ray, Jack's grandfather, as Mulder's one-time government contact, Sen. Richard Matheson ("Do you like Bach, Mulder?").
  • Frank Lapidus has emerged as one of my favorite characters because Jeff Fahey plays that role with a wicked twinkle in his eye. It's a shame he shaved the beard, though.

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" -- Locke's off-island adventures! Airs Wednesday, Feb. 25, 2009 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

mIF

#1. Posted by: mtncbn at February 18, 2009 11:40 PM

my initial thought was Ben went to get Penny, "unfinished business" and calling Jack from a marina. he got beat pretty good, but i will cry like a little girl if Penny is gone. the Penny/ Desmond story has heart

#2. Posted by: Captain Sandwich at February 18, 2009 11:43 PM

Loved the recap, esp. "How to Get Your Ass Back to the Island." Ha! Good stuff.

Re: Hurley and the guitar -
I thought, while watching, that the Oceanic 6 were recreating as much of Flight 815 as possible. Thus, Hurley was himself, as well as Walt (with the comic book) and Charlie (with the guitar). Sayid stood in for Kate, escorted by a marshal. Which means Kate was... Kate as well? Someone else?

One last point - how could Sun, a devoted mother, leave her child behind without a thought (or a phone call)? I hope the reason behind Kate's abandonment of Aaron has a back-story that will be explained soon.

#3. Posted by: chesl8a0 at February 18, 2009 11:46 PM

Mac, I love your idea for the final scene of the final episode of LOST!
And I agree with you, I'm loving Lapidus too.

I'll be hornswaggled...The island moves!
That settles that.

I'm assuming Claire's mom has Aaron.

I have to go ponder 316 for a bit.

#4. Posted by: undaunted at February 18, 2009 11:48 PM

Something felt very wrong about this episode... I have no idea where things are going to go from here. Jin's in a Dharma outfit; Daniel's going to meet young Charlotte, warn her not to come back, and try to get into the Orchid. So they must be trapped in the 70's and trying to turn the donkey wheel again to get back to their time, right? So what was the point of everything leading up to this point?! I'm so confused!

#5. Posted by: MadamIm at February 19, 2009 12:00 AM

Here's everything I wrote about this episode under the "This Place Is Death" review page.

Why does the "condolences" guy look so familiar??? Have we seen him before? Am I really slow??

By the way, I must say -- I love Ben more and more every minute of episode [especially when he's featured or mentioned].

OH YEAH. Did anyone notice that they started out this episode with Jack's annoying breathing???

... obviously also the same way that they started out the series, Jack's eye, annoying breathing, running and saving people... with a suit on.
___________

I just realized that it wasn't that much... at all.

So I wrote a REALLY LAME but TRUE poem called, "The Awful Adventures of Jack Shephard". It's pretty horrible. I am no poet. Basically, it's about how I hate him.

Some Exerpts (sp?): (WARNING: I tried WAYY TOO HARD to rhyme)

"It all starts with an eye,
...and Jack acting a little high.
Then he has an asthma attack,
That unfortunately never turns into a heart that needs an ice pack. --

..."He always has to be the hero,
when in reality, he's a zero. --

..."Matthew Fox should rock in a box and get killed with a vicious ox with chicken pox".

ahahaha... I was extremely bored.

Awesome episode... and I'm sure a great review, which I will read now.

P.S. His gray hairs are also really annoying. The few pieces here and there in his hair, but then the big chunks in his side burns. Gaah.

#6. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 12:00 AM

Awesome! the review is up already.
I personally think the best line(s) were Jack to Ben: How can you read?
Ben's deadpan reply: My mother taught me.
That's so Ben!

But wait...i thought ben didn't have a mother. ah, ben, always making people feel stupid with your constructed realities!


Also, at #5 Madamim - I was just going to post about Jin. Maybe that's how Charlotte learned Korean? If so then why wouldn't she have remembered him? So maybe that's not it - but then again a lot of people don't seem to remember each other. I mean, if some guy showed up speaking a language that no one else on the island knew, and taught me how to speak it too, I think I might remember it. I remember all my grade school spanish teachers and they weren't even that great nor was the situation very special(no offense to other spanish teachers) Don't worry, I'm confused too!

#7. Posted by: anjou at February 19, 2009 12:14 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Like Mac, not certain how I feel about this episode.

What I do know is that Jack is an idiot.
He's willing to hop on a plane that he believes will crash, yet he resists opening a letter from Locke?

I recall reading somewhere that the network switched this episode with next weeks, as they wanted the O6 back on the island faster. It will be interesting to watch next weeks episode, and reflect on how things would have been if the order was inversed.

Agree with ilovebenjaminlinusxx - who was that condolences dude? He was on the plane, so I would guess he may have made it to the island? Perhaps he is a Widmore dude?

With the intro of Jack's gramps, I thought for sure we were going to find out about Christian's strange involvement with an island/Dharma!

And back to the Jack bashing!
Just forget about your nephew buddy, and go for some action with Kate. Not very believable....

#8. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 12:21 AM

Ben had to have been going to find Penny and Des may have beat the crap out of him? Maybe? I think Desmond is still important to the story and will be in it again.

So I'm taking it that when the plane flew over the island - the sky went purple - and it sucked them out of the plane. And the plane went merrily on it's way without those passengers. Yikes!!!

I'm thinking about this episode and hopefully I can get some sleep tonight.

#9. Posted by: dk at February 19, 2009 12:31 AM

@mac: Favorite recap line-- "I'm not entirely sure why dead guys need to share clothes, but that's the rule and we're sticking to it." Steps 1-6 were all pretty awesome. How you are so speedy and so funny at the same time, I'll never know.

I thought the return to Death Island was perfect, because it WAS so simple! In all the extended conjecture I've read as to why those 6 people need to return, I don't remember anyone guessing this kind of scenario. Who knew the island could be tricked by a little rewrite/recast of the pilot episode?

So, the Returners flew into the island "snowglobe" and got caught in a time-travel flash? And the island is now somewhat stuck in Dharma time (judging by Jin's comfort driving that van) ever since Locke jiggled the UFDW?

Will returning Ben meet Dharma Ben? Ooohh, two Bens! Double the fun! His smart-assery has been in overdrive, and I'm loving it. Every time he says anything at all, I want Jack to respond with, "Are you lying?... How 'bout now? ...What about now?"

Do you think all those equations on the Lamp-post chalkboard were done by... Daniel Faraday? Did Dan figure out how to use the Foccault pendulum to locate a time-traveling island? And, if so, will he please share the secret recipe? Do Jacob and undead Christian have their lamps as some connection to the off-island station?

Yeah, Kate gave turniphead to his grandma. But maybe we'll see grown-up Aaron in a future island time-jump... that would be so cool.

The addition of random Grandpa Shephard annoyed me. If it was only for the shoes, I think it was lame to add a whole new character. But let the speculation begin... is Grandpa Shephard Jacob? (We've asked that question about every other older white male on the show!)

Ben got Sayid to attack him and had him arrested and transported by a federal marshall to Guam?? That's my guess, and if so, Ben deserves a little getaway to a tropical island. That man has been working overtime!

Why didn't Jack or Sun react when Des admitted to knowing Mrs H before?

All of these characters have been agonizing for years over their past failings, and now they're willing to take a plane load of passengers and crash them into Death island without a thought? I know Hurley bought the stand-by seats, but sheesh, what about all the other poor suckers just wanting a weekend getaway to Guam? Once again, Ben's sarcastic, "Who cares?" was awesome.

I know Cindy, and that stewardess was no Cindy. But Scarfy looked good.

Sorry for the long post, I could go on and on. Loved this episode!

#10. Posted by: Clementine at February 19, 2009 12:34 AM

"We're not going to Guam, are we?"

WNGTGAW

Love this line. It's a keeper, and useful in so many different ways.

#11. Posted by: drew458 at February 19, 2009 12:37 AM

Um... for real, when did Lapidus get hot? I'd do him, and I don't even have Daddy issues...

#12. Posted by: Kaytie at February 19, 2009 12:45 AM

Oh, Kaytie! Allow me to introduce you to Jeff Fahey in all his former glory:

tinyurl.com/6ytn4e

#13. Posted by: Clementine at February 19, 2009 12:52 AM

First, Hurley's guitar case is full of food. He learned his lesson the first time around in 2004.

Second, Sayid is getting deported to the Seychelles on murder charges. Guam is half-way on a straight line from LA. Ben knew about (sponsored) the golf course assassination and turned Sayid in for deportation - knowing that would get Sayid on Flt 316.

Third, Ben took the Magic shoes from Locke's coffin to wear himself - to Wizard of Oz himself home to the island - when the island grabbed everything it wanted from the airplane.

Fourth, did Aaron get turned over to Claire's mom? (Kate taking the redemption route) OR did Kate hand Aaron over to Ms. Hawking? (rich granny that may someday return the kid to the island) OR did Kate have Sun arrange to raise the boy with Ji Yeon (children of the island unite!) - inquiring Jack's want to know.

#14. Posted by: DocH at February 19, 2009 1:00 AM

I'm not sure what to think about this episode either. I do have a few questions though.

How did Kate get a ticket to go to Guam when one of the stipulations of her probation was to remain in California? Do you need a passport to travel to Guam? Wouldn't applying for a passport or buying an airline ticket to fly out of the US tip off someone that she was leaving California?

That scene with Kate & Jack and "never ask what happened to Aaron" was really spooky. I hope they explain that one pretty quick.

Why did Jack seem happy and to see everyone else and sort of excited to be going back, yet the rest of the "returners" did not seem very happy? Do they know something Jack doesn't know?

What changed Kate's and Hurley's minds about returning to the island?

What happened to Sayid?

Are they returning to the island with the intention of remaining there indefinitely or do the think that they will be able to leave again at some point?

I guess this episode is follows the "classic" Lost tradition of raising more questions than it answers.

#15. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at February 19, 2009 1:07 AM

So it looks like they traveled back in time before Ben killed all the darma people...Jin driving van which is in good shape, so looks like this is before Ben killed all of darma...

Gr8 post Mac Daddy

#16. Posted by: Jenny Talia at February 19, 2009 1:08 AM

Ok....

Some more bitching!

Last year, they pounded us with the O6 celebrity status recognition. They were plane crash survivors, who in turn allegedly received large cash settlements from Oceanic.

And now, they want me to believe that all of them could rendez-vous in an LA airport, and no one would notice?

Granted, years have passed, but c'mon! Regular people could forget them, but not people that work in the airline industry.

Fromage....

#17. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 1:08 AM

So the Losties are somehow trapped in the Dharma-y 70s on the island, right?

Jin's happily motoring around in his blue VW bus. He has no expectation that he will ever see his wife or child again, so maybe he's just settled in and made a life for himself. Maybe he even has another wife and child. Oooh, that's an interesting thought, but I digress...

Daniel's down in the Orchid trying to get to the FDW, and he's obsessed with trying to save Charlotte (even though he's already told us you can't change the future, but whatever). Maybe he and Jin aren't working from the same playbook. Maybe Daniel's gone rogue and is trying to stop time, or something crazy like that, in order to save her. I don't believe that that would lead to Daniel "becoming Jacob" though, so any theories about where this whole mess might lead?

#18. Posted by: MadamIm at February 19, 2009 1:22 AM

I think Ben went to go take care of Penny and Desmond beat him up. When Ben left Jack at the church he said he had to " go tie up a loose end"...which would be what he told Widmore that he was going to "kill his daughter". I liked Hurley having the guitar case just like Charlie did on the original flight. (Probably full of Apollo bars) And the best line was Ben after Jack asked him what's going to happen to all of the rest of the planes passengers...Bens response "Who Cares!"
Classic.

#19. Posted by: mike at February 19, 2009 1:22 AM

is it just me, or did ben call jack "john" when they were sitting in the church. I watched it a few times and im pretty certain he did when he was talking about the painting.

#20. Posted by: ally at February 19, 2009 1:24 AM

Least fulfilling scene. How many of us looked at the magician in the retirement center pull the rabbit from under the box and wonder... are they going to use island science to replicate the rabbit. I really expected to see a number on the side of the wee animal.

(Sorry, BunnyLover. I was praying for you.)

#21. Posted by: DocH at February 19, 2009 1:26 AM

Great review, loved the humour. The episode was a mixed bag for me. The exposition was quick and to the point and mainly confirmed what we all speculated in here (windows of opportunity, Ajira flight 316, all that), although the hours didn't quite match up, did they? Ben had only 70 hours to bring everyone together, then Sayid was unconcious for 42 hours and now, at the beginning of the episode, there were 36 hours left. Or did I miscount here?

Did anyone expect (well, more hope actually), that in the last second Walt would come into the plane cabin?

Notice the repeat theme throughout the whole episode? The O6 had to repeat their Oceanic flight, the opening scene was a repeat of the first scene of the series, the Hawking scene started with a repeat from last week (although that they might actually have put in, because this episode was initially thought of as being the next one, with next week's episode being this week's... time jumps eh), the end of the episode was a repeat of the beginning. And Mrs. Hawking's exposition scene sounded like a repeat of all the posts on this and other blogs all over the net. :)

Lots of things from the Ajira website found their way in: Guam, Ulysses (thanks for that, Mac, I wasn't quick enough in recognising the book), Bible reference...

@2, re Penny: My thoughts exactly.

@5: Them being in Dharma times seems right. The point of all that went before? Except for living through it, you mean? I dunno, what's the point in anything? I'm not getting what you mean here.

@8: Iirc, in the podcast Darlton made it seem like switching the episodes was their idea, not the network's.

@8 and others: the other people on the plane. I guess some of them survived (if they really crashed that is), since we were promised a couple of new cast members. Btw, Hurley was conscience of the show as always. When they discussed taking a commercial flight to get to the island, I was wondering what would happen to the other passengers. No one seemed really concerned with that. Apart from Hurley of course. It's nice to see they didn't forget that buying as much seats as possible would be something Hurley would do.

So the Oceanic flight the first time around crashed because Desmond didn't punch in the hatch numbers in time, right. So why did Ajira 316 crash? Since they seemingly ended up in pre-Orchid Dharma times (going by Jin and the van and the season opening scene of Faraday at the construction of the Orchid) that would rule out the Incident and the implosion of the hatch. Any other candidates?

#22. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 19, 2009 1:27 AM

@22. Posted by: Plain Simple

So far, it seems that there was no actual crash. Flashing light, and poof, gone! Imagine how freaky it would be to be a regular person on that plane, and then all these people disappear!

Then again...

If Frank went poof too, who would fly the plane?

Worse yet for Frank, if the plane does crash and history repeats itself, will smokey mess him up nice and good?

#23. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 1:39 AM

Long time reader...first time poster... Mac, et al - love the reviews!

With that said - I have to say I appreciated the appropriate moniker of the off-island Dharma Station. I'm sure I'm not the only one that caught the homage to C.S. Lewis' 'The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe', with the Lamp Post that little Lucy found marking the way back into the Spare Room, or Narnia (depending on your perspective or direction of travel).

#24. Posted by: shazel at February 19, 2009 1:45 AM

They don't need Aaron on board, they have his stand-in. Jack got Kate pregnant so there is another grandson of Christian aboard the plane.

#25. Posted by: stilllost at February 19, 2009 1:46 AM

@24: Oh, nice one, I should have picked up on that, with them going to the land of C(harlotte) S(taples) Lewis. Otoh, there was also a lot of lampshade hanging going on. :) http://tinyurl.com/azpndj

@25: Hehe, who knows...

#26. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 19, 2009 2:06 AM

Oh, very clever theory, stilllost!

I hate it though; I don't want Kate to have Jack's baby.

#27. Posted by: MadamIm at February 19, 2009 2:13 AM

The 'condolences' guy is apparently named Caesar (according to IMDB) and is played by Saïd Taghmaoui. You might remember him from 'Three Kings' or 'Hidalgo'. Coincidentally, the other new Lostie - Sayid's escort on the plane, Ilana, was also in 'Hidalgo.'

Saïd was also in 'Vantage Point' with Matthew Fox, and has undoubtedly had a lot of 'terrorist roles' offered to him. I have to embarrassingly admit, at first I thought he was going to try to force his way into the cockpit when Lapidus opened the door. I know; I'm a bad person.

#28. Posted by: MadamIm at February 19, 2009 2:27 AM

Thanks for a fun review, Mac!

When Jack saw the shoes in his Grandaddy's case, I thought, oh, God, how convenient.

As to why everyone besides Jack and Sun look miserable to be on the plane, I'm sure Ben worked them all over.

@2 & 9 & 14
Speaking of Ben, I HOPE that Des kicked his buggy butt. Or Sayid. Or both. I personally was chilled by his cavalier "Who cares?" line. And the deportion to the Seychelles, that makes sense; could Ben have set this up back at the time of the assassination? Hmm...

@12 & 13
I was having the same thoughts, lose the beard and DAMN, Lapidus was looking hot! And so was Dharma-garbed Jin, love the island shag. The van's back, yay!

@25
Great angle! Maybe Kate deliberately seduced him for that reason! Or she's desperate for a new baby.

#29. Posted by: freckles at February 19, 2009 2:45 AM

Long time reader, first time poster.

Great review Mac!

I thought that at the moment John turned the FDW they would stop travelling through time, but apparently they still are.

So either the're screwed because they stopped time travelling somewhere during the Dharma time.
Or the time travelling never stopped, but in that case, why did John had to move the island and whay did he change exactly?

Any thoughts?

#30. Posted by: Nikita at February 19, 2009 5:46 AM

Solid episode. Initial thoughts:

• How they got to the island was anticlimatic. I think you could have figured it all out when our island time hoppers flashed and arrived at the Aja (spelling) plane wreckage, you could have surmised that these were probably our losters returning back to the island.

• Frank Lapidus as the pilot? Course correction?

• The scene between Jack and Ben, where Jack asked Ben if he believed. Ben’s response was ‘we all believe sooner or later, JOHN.’ Can someone confirm this? I replayed that scene about six times and I could have swore that Ben says ‘John’ instead of ‘Jack.’

• When Mrs. Hawking was talking about the windows, what she failed to say is that they could land ‘any time’ on the island. Will we ever receive an explanation of how it works?

• The guy who spoke to Jack at the airline check-in counter – I dunno. I think he’s a plant.

• What on earth happened to Kate that she would willingly leave Aaron behind? Whatever it was, she was scared. Is Sun’s devotion to Jin that deep that she would leave her child behind? Whereas I know Kate probably realizes that she’ll never return, is Sun thinking that eventually she and Jin will go back?

• Speaking of Ben, what happened to leave him all battered and bruised. Why I am I feeling that it had something to do with Desmond/Penny? Even though I think Ben’s on the side of good, it was funny to see his cold calculating ways return when asked about the other ppl on the plane surviving the crash.

• The ‘Desmond delivering the message’ plot felt ‘funny.’ I kept thinking it had to be more to it. And the lack of reaction by Mrs. Hawking regarding the message from her son was interesting.

• Jin at the end, with 'refreshed' looking hair! Does this mean that they went back in time and are they in danger of being eventually purged out by Ben in later years?

• Was that a guitar case that Hurley had when they crashed? Like Christian's shoes on Locke, this was a symbol to Charlie? Part of the whole 'close recreation of the flight?' If so, why important?

#31. Posted by: Landa at February 19, 2009 6:06 AM

great review mac
about aaron...would there have been enough time for sun to get him to her mother? remember she told her daughter she had met a new friend for her. and speaking of sun, does anyone else think that sun would be the one that talked hurley into going along?

have to agree "we're not going to guam, are we?" is best line.

#32. Posted by: surefoot at February 19, 2009 7:04 AM

Well, everyone’s right . . this was a rather “convenient” episode. I think that shikotee reminding us that this ep is out of order is probably a key to understanding it. And I agree with dk about the group being “foomed” out of the plane rather than the plane meeting the same plight as the original Oceanic flight. I can’t imagine that the writers would open up a new “crash scenario” with only a season and a half to go. That would certainly be a BIG can of worms to deal with . . .

It was another nice effect to make Jin the “surprise element” at the end . . AGAIN! Obviously, we are in the middle of a time shift . . .which the O6 (and company?) will soon discover.

I am alarmed that perhaps Kate has SCREWED UP MAJOR-LY by leaving Aaron behind.

I think this will be a week where we can sit back and see how many postings will occur dealing only with speculation or redundancy. Basically only two mysteries here - Why did they all show up and who beat up Ben. Because there sure isn’t much to talk about otherwise. Surely, next weeks episode will clear up some of this “conveniency”. (Is that a word!?!)

I hate to admit it, but obviously a day without Sawyer’s wisecracking is like a day without sunshine . . .

Guess I’ll just relax here and see what happens . . .

#33. Posted by: davidrh at February 19, 2009 7:31 AM

One word sums up this episode for me: WOW !

#34. Posted by: Ollie-Em at February 19, 2009 7:43 AM

Does anyone here call their grandpa "Granddad"?

Is it just me or did that sound really awkward coming out of Jack's mouth. I could have heard "Grandpa" or "Roy" but "Granddad" was just awkward. Maybe it's just me.

I have a friend that always refers to her grandpa as "Grandfather". She says, "My Grandfather drove me today". Or something like that. Maybe it's because I refer to my grandpa as "Grandpa" but actually call him "Nanaji".

It's probably just me.

Sorry for the ramble.

#35. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 7:48 AM

I think I'm glad it didn't take the entire season to get back to the island, but five of the Oceanic 6 just waltzing onto the same flight and no red flags? Hard to believe.

Overall, if ya ask me, there's a whole lotta course correcting going on.

Agree with the posters theorizing that Des beat up Ben, who was going after Penny.

@15. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost
Yeah, I think Kate just violated the terms of her probation.

Was cool to see Jack meat Jill the butcher (groan, sorry).

I didn't think that neglecting to bring Aaron to the island was an oversight. To the contrary, I think Kate was somehow trying to protect him.

If Locke was a proxy for Christian, does that make Ben a proxy for Locke? Or maybe Jack's a proxy for Locke because he had Locke's letter in his hands. And I agree with the earlier post that Hurley's guitar case had something to do with Charlie. Maybe the reason Hurley is on the flight is because he hopes to resurrect Charlie.

Who was the mysterious guy on line behind Jack at the airport? He flashed on screen briefly on the plane as well. My money's on him being a Widmore plant.

Did Ben somehow know to move away from Jack to a different part of the plane before the light flashed so that they wouldn't land in the same place on the island?

Here's a theory: the plane, including Sayid, Sun, Ben, Lapidus, the coffin and the rest of the new redshirts, landed on the runway they were building on the island.

Interesting to see our first off-island Dharma station. Now we're starting to see more connections between Dharma and the real world off-island.

#36. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 19, 2009 7:49 AM

@I♥Ben : Does anyone here call their grandpa "Granddad"? My father-in-law insisted that our little vacc calls him "Granddad?" To be annoying I'll probably teach him to say "gramps"

#37. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 8:13 AM

#14 DocH: I like your idea of Ben taking Christian's shoes!

Guam is a US territory; no passport necessary.

I think Ben turned Sayid in, took the cop to where Sayid was and Sayid got a jump on Ben and caused him some harm before the cops could stop him.

Our sweet Hurley bought up all those seats to protect all those unsuspecting people. When news breaks that the plane was lost, all those angry people are going to be so grateful that the crazy selfish man bought all the seats up.

Kate could well be pregnant...is probably pregnant...is pregnant.Yeah, Kate is pregnant.



#38. Posted by: undaunted at February 19, 2009 8:24 AM

My wife and I came up with an idea of what happened to Aaron.

I think that Kate gave him to the mother of Sawyers daughter. Remember she had been sneaking around last season and wouldn't tell Jack where she was??

I think she was visiting Sawyers daughter and then realized she already knew the mother of Sawyers daughter. Sorry, I forget their names!

Anyway, that's why she doesn't want Jack to ever ask her, because Jack wouldn't like his nephew hanging out with Sawyers kid.


That's my mamma!!

#39. Posted by: steve 2112 at February 19, 2009 8:27 AM

I also agree with those who already posted that Ben's unfinished business was to kill Penny (I think his words were "I made a promise to an old friend")

Unfortunately, I do believe Ben succeeded. This will put Desmond into motion and fuel his eventual return to the Island - ironically as an advocate of Charles Widmore.

I also don't believe that Penny was any more Widmore's daughter than Alex was Ben's daughter.

When the Dharma V-Dub pulls up, I first thought it was going to be either Horace Goodspeed, or Roger "workman" Linus. Twice this season, I was surprised to see Jin's face at the end of an ep.

I also believe that the Losties aboard 316 FOOMED to Dharma days prior to plane breaking apart, but that the plane itself crashed in current time - when Sawyer, Juliet, Locke, Miles, Dan and Charlotte finally see the beach camp and take the canoe ride, it's probably at the time of Ajira's flight.

The preview showing Locke talking to Widmore was cool. Wonder if the Other formerly known as private "Jones" remembers Locke from his Jughead days?

Lots of questions still... like did they all get FOOMED? What made Hurley decide to go back? (The promise of a lifetime supply of Apollo bars I presume..)
Where is Aaron? I don't believe Kate just handed him to Grandmum. She seemed really spooked about it.

I also think stilllost #25 hit the nail on the head. Kate is preggers!! If she gives birth in the 70's, then baby "Jate" could be someone we already know.

I'll go tend to my nosebleed now...

#40. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 8:31 AM

I don't know if this was addressed already, but I thought that Hurley bought all of the seats on the plane. What happened to that?

I'm noticing a pattern... of awesomeness:
1. Locke: Ben, you just killed everyone on that boat.
Ben: So?

2. Jack: What happens to everyone else?
Ben: Who cares?
___________

Jack has such an annoying and huge ego. I have no idea how he lives with himself. It really gets in the way of being SMART.

"No I can't open this letter, I already heard everything that he has to say"

"I promised everyone I would get EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM off the island, and I intend to keep that promise"

"I don't want to listen to you! You're mean!"

"Time for an asthma attack!"

...I should probably stop.
____________

I thought that whole scene with Kate and Jack in the bedroom was random. Was there a point to that? I bet Kate is just using him. She pretty much told him that they're not "together".
____________

So all of the second generations are left behind:
1. Aaron
2. Ji Yeon
3. Walt

Maybe that will mean something?
____________

In addition to Mac's "obvious questions", how did Hurley get out of jail?
____________

That officer person with Sayid also looked really familiar. Have we seen her before? Or do I just recognize her from another show?
____________

They said that the note was found in Jack's "cargo", but would they have really taken it out of the coffin? What caused the note to get back to Jack?
____________

"I hope the final image in the series' final scene is Desmond, leaning from an airborne rescue helicopter's door, peeing his name into the island's sand."

I completely agree.

I don't think that Desmond has a job back on the island, but maybe he has to do something off-island. They already said that they didn't need Desmond to go back, so they need him to do something else.

Obviously he hasn't tried to kill himself yet, so maybe the island isn't letting him die?

Speaking of the island not letting people die, it's ironic how it let Locke die (assuming he's dead). Even though it was said to be a "sacrifice that the island demanded", still.
___________

Is it just me or does Ray seem to young to be Jack's "Granddad"? Jack already has gray hair. I think that Ray looks about the same age as Christian.

Maybe he's like Richard?
__________

#41. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 8:46 AM

By the way -- GRAA Mac!!!

#42. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 8:47 AM

@ Captain Sandwich - 2
"my initial thought was Ben went to get Penny, "unfinished business" and calling Jack from a marina. he got beat pretty good, but i will cry like a little girl if Penny is gone. the Penny/ Desmond story has heart"

Good point. Maybe Desmond was there defending her and then Ben pulled out his death stick?

@ chesl8a0 - 3
"I thought, while watching, that the Oceanic 6 were recreating as much of Flight 815 as possible. Thus, Hurley was himself, as well as Walt (with the comic book) and Charlie (with the guitar). Sayid stood in for Kate, escorted by a marshal. Which means Kate was... Kate as well? Someone else?"

That's smart. I figured it had something to do with Charlie, but good observations!
___________

I don't think Kate ever really refers to Aaron as "Aaron". She ALWAYS says "my son". She's like some obsessive psycho fake mom.
___________

So the O6-1 made it there right on time! It looked like the island flashed right when they got there.

I assume that the islanders learned to live in the flashes... they had 3 years to get used to it.
___________

@ MadamIm - 28
"Saïd was also in 'Vantage Point' with Matthew Fox, and has undoubtedly had a lot of 'terrorist roles' offered to him."

YES!!!! THAT'S WHY HE LOOKS FAMILIAR!!! That was bothering me... I almost couldn't sleep from it.

#43. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 8:59 AM

I like the idea that Kate used Jack just to get pregnant. I didn't like the thought that she would choose him over Sawyer.
@41, didn't Ben's lawyer tell him that he would have Hurley out of jail soon? Somehow Ben has his hand in everything. I'm sure he had something to do with Sayid being arrested.
If the writers say that nothing that is said is a throwaway, then maybe Ben's hilarious reply "My mother taught me" really means something. Or maybe I'm just grabbing at straws.
Finally, do you think they are going to want to get the gun from Jin before he finds out that Sun is with them?

#44. Posted by: Amy R at February 19, 2009 9:02 AM

I didn't think this ep was as good as everybody else. Too many things just too convenient...deus ex machina...isn't that the expression?

Grandad? Really?

Desmond's scene with Eloise left me unfulfilled. She didn't want to know more about her son? Some Scottish dude delivers an arcane message from her son and all she says is feh? No recognition between Des and Eloise?

Des may be the Hot Scot, but he didn't do that to Ben's face. That had Sayid written all over it. Any got a screen shot of Sayid's handiwork on Ben's face from when Ben was Henry Gale?

My biggest question is how many takes were required before Jack was able to resist tickling Locke's feet while putting on the wingtips?

Condolence Dude (CD) is Ben's henchman. My guess, but you heard it here first.

#45. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 19, 2009 9:13 AM

First post of this season

Re:15 As far as Guam is concerned it's U.S. Territory, just like Puerto Rico or the U.S. Virgin Islands, so my guess is that you wouldn't need a passport if you were an American citizen to fly there. Problem solved on that particular issue for Kate, I still do not know how they convinced Kate and Hurley to change their minds though, I guess that is for later episodes.

Re: 22 I don't think the timeline is off, if memory serves, Sayid was out for quite a while ( maybe a whole day or more ) when Mrs. Hawking told Ben he had 70 hrs. to get to the island.

Re: 33 I agree with you, I think the only people who ended up on the island were those who needed to be and that everyone else just went on their merry way to Guam. The question is did Lapidus get "beamed out" with the rest of them? If he did, the other pilot is going to have an interesting story to tell the airline when they arrive there. Re: "Grandad" I don't think they would have cast a top-notch actor like Raymond Barry and then just use him for only scene of one episode. I'm sure that his role will be expanded in the future, in fact he is mentioned in the first of the Lost Missing Pieces "mobisodes" that were aired between seasons 3 and 4. Anyone that still hasn't watched them should.

I can't believe nobody mentioned Jack's line to Locke, " John wherever you are right now, you must be laughing your ass off " Which is the first time I think Jack has cracked a joke in a very long time. That line plus the fact that Kate looked exhausted after their roll in the hay would seem to indicate that Jack has got his mojo back.

#46. Posted by: unladenswallow at February 19, 2009 9:16 AM

Great idea, #25 - of course Kate is pregnant. Don't believe she just handed Aaron over to Claire's mum, though - too simple for Kate. Bet he is with Sawyer's girlfriend - which would be a great place to hide Aaron IF it weren't for the fact that Ben and his Other minions seem to know everything about everyone, so probably know about the scammed girlfriend in Sawyer's past, too, and will find little Turniphead and then god-knows-what they'll do (bring him back to the island? Use him as a hostage? The possibilities are endless).

Of course Hurley went back to the island - he was the one who wanted to go back in the first place. Remember when Jack went to visit him in the psych hospital, and Hurley disrupted their friendly little game of HORSE by insisting "We have to go back" - ? Once Hurley is convinced that he can do something to help protect someone else, he does it (he bought how many seats on that plane?). Good ol' Hugo.

#47. Posted by: occam at February 19, 2009 9:23 AM

@ilovebejaminlinusxxx - must be winter break; you've made almost half of the posts so far! ;)

@Mac - I actually had a TRS-80 way back when! Don't know how many people today would remember that computer.

My comments about the episode: First, to sum it up in three words - Way Too Convenient. I'll leave it at that.

Now, why is it that not one person asked Sun where her kid is? If she's going to go back does she seriously believe she can return at some point to reunite with Ji Yeon?

When Desmond starts yelling at Eleanor about fulfilling his 4 years of servitude and all of that, why is it that it seemed to be (at least to me) that he was saying his time there had been explained to him already by someone involved with Dharma? I've thought and rethought out his comments and it just seems there's a conversation implied in his statement that we don't know about (yet).

I think it's obvious now why Daniel knows so much about the island and how it is that he's been studying it his whole life.

Was I the only one just waiting, in that initial set of scenes at the Lamp Post, for someone to accidentally walk into the path of the pendulum and bump it out of proper alignment? It seemed that, if this is how they originally found and continue to find the island, that if the pendulum were severed or knocked off course they'd have no way to re-find it. Of course it could be that they could put replace the pendulum easily and it would naturally re-find its course. Nevermind...

Furthermore, was anyone fooled by that opening scene and seriously believed we were re-watching the series premier? I knew immediately that it was just meant to look similar and that we were probably looking at the initial scene of them returning to the island rather than first arriving on the island. I've got to imagine everyone else who has been following things for any period of time would have thought the same thing.

Apparently from the previews of the next episode Locke really does leave the island with a compound fracture still intact (that is, it's still broken).

There was waayyyyyyy too much going on in this episode where people (Jack, Hurley, etc.) were all taking things at face value and way too calmly for my comfort. No drama? No trepidations? Just casually board the plane (Hurley's "all of the seats I bought need to remain empty" hissy fit notwithstanding) without question and let what will happen happen. I didn't like things one bit, but perhaps this will all be explained in the future.

#48. Posted by: LostedIt at February 19, 2009 9:25 AM

Did this episode Jump the Dharma Shark?

#49. Posted by: welh at February 19, 2009 9:29 AM

mixed feelings on this episode for me as well....on one hand im excited for answers but on the other i'm sorta concerned on how things unfolded. Hawking's explanantion sounded like someone from the blog so all of that wasn't a big surprise to me and the completed wasted scene where Jack talks to his Granddad at the magician show failed to hold my attention...idk....i just know i'm siked for next week's episode....

also....did anyone notice Locke talking the police lady who escorted Sayid on the plane in the preview for next week's episode last night?? He said he remembered dying and they were both on the island it looked like so....its obvious he has been brought back to life??? idk......but i'm pretty sure thats what i saw.....

the fact that Kate left Aaron feels uneasy in my loins. The only way I'd like that plot scenario to play out if Aaron went all beserk and stuff like he sorta kinda did in one of Claire's dreams from season one. Remember this kid is special and if i recall correctly: not in a good way.

I hope they explain what happened to the Frosties after Locke turned the wheel not just have Jin recap it in broken English in the back of the Dharma Van while they share a Dharma Beer and Apollo Bars.

I so expected Walt to bounce up to Jack and be like "whatsup, ready to go back?". And where are the other people on the plane???? It's obvious it didnt crash

Lots of good times ahead......

#50. Posted by: grimgravyX at February 19, 2009 9:30 AM

Oh, one more thing. Regardless of whether flight 316 gets destroyed or whether some of the passengers just mysteriously disappear, don't they think that someone's going to look at the passenger list post-flight and see that every one of the O6 adults ended up on the same flight?

#51. Posted by: LostedIt at February 19, 2009 9:30 AM

@50: grimgravyX - I'm a little uneasy that part of the storyline makes you feel uneasy in your loins. ;)

#52. Posted by: LostedIt at February 19, 2009 9:32 AM

@ chesl8a0 - 3 : I also like your idea that Hurley (comic book, guitar) added the presence of Charlie and Walt and that Sayid took on Kate's roll.

Adding to that, of course Locke playing the part of Christian was spelled out for us.

I actually thought that Ben ended up playing the part of Hurley. We'll probably see in a flashback how everything gets in Ben's way as he tries to make it to the airport, and he steals some poor broken hip guy's motor scooter to get to the departing gate, then talks his way onto the plane before they pull away from the gate.

As for Kate's roll, based on previous post by stilllost (#25), Kate and Fetus play the part of Claire and Aaron.

#53. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 9:36 AM

@50

You may be right.

****

So what's the big deal with "Granddad"? I called mine Granddad. My children called my father Granddad. My Children's children call me Granddad. I think one young lady needs to hold her tongue and when she grows, see what her grandchildren call her. Probably not "GrandIloveBen." :-)

#54. Posted by: david at February 19, 2009 9:41 AM

Correction: @49 - You may be right.


(I was blinded by my Granddad rant.)

#55. Posted by: davidrh at February 19, 2009 9:43 AM

TPTB decided it was "cooler" to show these out of order. They wrote them both at the same time so I am reserving judgment until both are shown. (I love those guys!) I think they wanted to have it seem too easy and next week will show how hard it was and what sacrifices and promises were made.

Sayid and Hurley were surprised to see everyone so I don't think Sayid knew Ben was behind his arrest. Either Widmore was involved with telling Hurley about the plane or else Ben had to have someone else convince Hurley (by lying of course) since he would do the opposite of what Ben wanted and he was visibly upset when he saw Ben. And of course Ben's ominous question of who told Hurley about the flight. Fake or real question?

One of the main themes of the show used to be about redemption and getting a second chance to do it right and be a different/better person. This episode certainly played into the "do over" concept. Sometimes almost literally!

#56. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at February 19, 2009 9:44 AM

@ 44 > Somehow Ben has his hand in everything. I'm sure he had something to do with Sayid being arrested.

I read that and thought "how true." I think we forget that Ben is all powerful, in so many ways.

Jack getting the envelope means that Ben probably was in the coffin and found the letter after Jack put it in. So, why did he check the coffin? To get the shoes? Why get the shoes?

And someone wrote that the plane may have crashed after they were zoomed off the plane. That would make sense and tie up the plane landing without some of it's passengers.

And where is John now? Broken leg and all????

#57. Posted by: dk at February 19, 2009 9:48 AM

@36: Scooby-Dude - Interesting to see our first off-island Dharma station.

I'm not convinced that this is the first off-Island Dharma station we've seen. Hawking said that the Lamp Post station was constructed above one of the places on earth with unique properties. When Bernard takes Rose to the faith healer in Australia, he described his location in those very words.

#58. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 9:55 AM

Only thing I would've changed is when they got back to the island....why not have Kate fall in some mud, just for old-time sakes.

Pretty good episode....I bordered on saying 'jump the dharma shark' as well...but refrained.

I can't wait to see next week if Locke get's thrown into Tunisia or if the island convienently places Bentham in LA. Hope there's some consistency there, but pro'ly not.

#59. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 19, 2009 9:56 AM

Didn't Ben specifically tell Locke that he could never go back to the island once he turned the wheel? Now he's hitching along on the coattails of the rest of the people going back? WTH? (Ha! I bet y'all thought I was going to say WTF! Oh, oops...). Where was it ever stated that Ben needed to go back?

Since we've only seen three of the Losties back on the island, it should be interesting to see whether Ben, or Lapidius for that matter, gets back to the island as well or if they stay on the flight (assuming it doesn't crash 'n burn).

#60. Posted by: LostedIt at February 19, 2009 9:56 AM

@54: davidrh - Easy on the youngun, she's been up all night posting. It's not like she took steroids from 2001-3... ;)

FYI - I called my grandfathers "grandpa". My kids call my dad and my wife's dad "Papa" (that's how my first one could pronounce "grandpa" and it just stuck).

#61. Posted by: LostedIt at February 19, 2009 10:04 AM

More inane questions...

Will the monster eat the pilot this time?

Will the scarfy flight attendant become an "Other" - perhaps even a younger version of someone we've met already?

In season 6, will we be introduced to another pair of "new characters" that were presumed to have been on flight 316 and who eventually get killed off by the writers in some entertaining fashion due to audience backlash?

Was Jin's last scene simply another case of the writers just messing with us? Perhaps another misdirection to make us think they're all in the 70's? Will they reveal later that Jin and Sawyer merely restored Hurley's "shambala" classic to pristine condition in his loving memory? If so, I wonder what the odometer reading is? (although it was probably called the ODOR-METER when they first found Roger "Workman" Linus. )

If it really is the 70's will the Swan Station be adorned like Eric Foreman's basement in That 70's show? And if so, did the smoke monster originate from their "circle time"?

#62. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 10:11 AM

Any chance that pregnant Kate + 06 on the island during the '70's = Charlotte is the daughter of Kate & Jack? Also, I wonder if Kate was visited by Claire's ghost and was convinced to leave Aaron behind and return to the island.

#63. Posted by: RAW26 at February 19, 2009 10:14 AM

@ vacc #62 said: 'In season 6, will we be introduced to another pair of "new characters" that were presumed to have been on flight 316 and who eventually get killed off by the writers in some entertaining fashion due to audience backlash?'

And like the previous two characters, one will have pooping problems.

#64. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 19, 2009 10:14 AM

@60: LostedIt - Didn't Ben specifically tell Locke that he could never go back to the island once he turned the wheel?

Since when did listening to Ben get you anywhere worth a damn?

#65. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 10:14 AM

Love this blog! My brain is always in knots after watching each episode! too many questions! Love it!

#20: ally: I thought Ben called Jack "John" too!

#66. Posted by: Aubrey at February 19, 2009 10:16 AM

I have the same kind of feeling about the episode...love/hate. I have been wanting answers but definitely not in such a convenient manner. Here are a few comments/questions...

* Ms. Hawking saying that you can never find the island currently, only can predict in the future. Ben doesn't know about this. How then has he and some of the others have been able to leave the island and come back if its so difficult to find? He's done it so many times, yet now cannot get back?
* looks like the O6 will probably lose one as it seems it was them chasing Juliet/Sawyer/etc in the wooden raft. Remember the Aijra h20 bottle in the boats.
* Was Ben at the Marina when he called all beat up?
* John signed his note JL; seemed odd as he put Jack's full name. Could he now be Jacob L and that's why he signed JL?

#67. Posted by: PeterIsLost at February 19, 2009 10:16 AM

As always, excellent review Mac.

While I enjoyed this ep I was a bit irritated by how many new questions it created. They need to be answered sooner than later...especially what Kate did with Aaron and why. And I agree that it was FAR too easy for Sun to leave her child behind. Even with the hope of finding Jin alive she has to know that she may never get off the island again. Which would mean she'd never see her kid again. Most mothers would choose their child over their husband IMHO.

Best line for me? In reference to Ben:

Jack: Is he lying?
Hawking: Probably.

(paraphrased...prolly didn't get it exactly right...but it cracked me up!)

#68. Posted by: JoePike at February 19, 2009 10:24 AM

I would have to believe with Ben's reference to John the apostle, that Flight 316 refers to John 3:16 "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten son...".

#69. Posted by: Michael at February 19, 2009 10:24 AM

@48. Posted by: LostedIt - Yes, I kept waiting for Desmond to get knocked over by the pendulum, the way he kept stalking across the room. :)

@everyone who hasn't posted yet: GIAUST - Guam is a US Territory

I'm having a problem with the whole faith issue. The O6 are having miseries, so they assume the fix is to return to the island. They believe Locke & Ben, that they shouldn't have left. Why is this the only possibility? If we, the audience, along with the Losties, know that Ben is a pathological liar, why don't we find another answer? Maybe the problem is that everyone still alive DIDN'T leave. Maybe they need to find out how to get everyone off the island.

Ben & other Dharmites have been coming & going for decades. Dharma planes dropped supplies regularly. The island isn't that hard to find when you have the key. Since Desmond blew up the hatch, the key is harder to find, but it's still there. I believe all factions involved - Ben, Others, Widmore, Dharma, Jacob, Hawking - are evil, Locke is being duped, and the Losties need to gather their own and get away.

#70. Posted by: hurling at February 19, 2009 10:40 AM

Has anyone noticed that Ben was praying and lit a candle? He also lit one the first time we saw him in church several episodes ago.

#71. Posted by: Anne at February 19, 2009 10:41 AM

My first thought when I saw Kate at Jack's place and she was so upset and didn't want to talk about Aaron, was that Aaron is on his way or is there on the Island already. Remember Ben saying to Kate he doesn't belong to her? He did something with Aaron and that's why he was beat up.

#72. Posted by: grapekat at February 19, 2009 10:45 AM

I think it's a little odd that people think it is overly "Convenient" that the O6 all ended up on the plane together. Sure, Kate, Jack and Sun all make the conscious decision to be there, and we have 'seen' their descisions to go. Sayid was obviously a prisoner (probably set up by Ben for the Golf Course killing, I like that theory) and had no idea that this trip was going to take him back to the Island. Hurley makes the decision to go, but we have not yet seen what causes that choice. I'm going to guess he was visited by another ghost, probably Charlie or maybe Libby, who tells him to grab a guitar and head back.
Things we'll see in a future episode- Kate giving up Aaron (I think he is with JiYeon). Hurley gets a 'visit' decides to head to the island. Sayid's arrest. I like the theory that the other folks on the plane (Sun, Sayid, Ben, Frank, Caesar and Illana, plus the redshirts) will land on the island in 'current' time, and will be the people who chase the Frosties in the Outriggers.
I'm curious to see how long the Frosties have been in Dharma time, and how they got integrated into the Dharma clan without raising suspicions of their origins.

#73. Posted by: Scoosh at February 19, 2009 10:47 AM

Thanks for the review, mac! Vacc, I think your observation of Ben as Hurley and Kate/Jackspawn as Claire/Aaron in #53 is spot on! But what about the other significant players, like Jin and Michael and Sawyer?

When it seemed everyone had "foomed" onto the island, I was wondering - why didn't their seats foom with them, since objects being touched come along for the ride? Then I remembered Hurley telling another passenger to fasten their seatbelt, but he didn't do his. I can't wait for next week's episode to show how it all came down, so to speak!

#74. Posted by: Glostover at February 19, 2009 10:52 AM

Ok.. stupid thought here. Widmore told Des where Mrs. Hawkings could be found. Mrs. Hawkings knows where the island "should" be a a certain point in time. Why would'nt Widmore just go to the Lamp Post and find the island???

My brain hurts...

#75. Posted by: Three Men and A Baby ( I counted Hugo twice...) at February 19, 2009 10:53 AM

A somewhat related note: By coincidence (no, I really don't believe in them,) Rebecca Mader (Charlotte S. Lewis) was on the Chelsea Lately Show last night (on the E! Channel). She's really quite beautiful and even charming. Since her demise on LOST, she's been "drinking a lot, looking for a job and looking for a man." And she's been working with UNICEF to build wells in Ethiopia! The biggest reveal was that people in England have no tolerance for redheads. Who knew? Ok, back to our regularly-scheduled show.

#76. Posted by: lovelost at February 19, 2009 10:57 AM

@lovelost #76 - so that makes two islands that don't tolerate redheads? Hopefully, there is not a rash of aneurysms in the UK...

Great review mac. I liked the episode, and think the O5 (less Aaron) reunion on the Ajira flight will turn out to be more complicated and less convenient that it appears.

@25 - I really like the theory that Kate may be impregnated and is a proxy for Claire. I hope the baby is not Charlotte.

#77. Posted by: Thundarr the Barbarrian at February 19, 2009 11:06 AM

@54: davidrh - Easy on the youngun, she's been up all night posting. It's not like she took steroids from 2001-3... ;)
61. Posted by Lostedit

****

You’re right, You’re right. I, of all people should give the girl some slack. Afterall, I deal with college kids everyday who believe they, and only they, have all the correct and appropriate answers to the universal mysteries. Usually because “they just know.” . . . or the “I think it, therefore it must be so” theorem . . . And have no hesitation to share them with you.

So all us old timers will be “corrected” in our thinking. And sometimes asked to, literally, change history!

So I’ll forgive her for being presumptuous.
And she can forgive me for the sarcasm.
And I can thank you for the “temperment check” . . .

Now, I have to go to a class of 20-year-olds and find out what I missed over the past 63 years . . .

:-D

#78. Posted by: davidrh at February 19, 2009 11:13 AM

Just made some mental connections after talking with a friend here at work and now have a thought on the on-island scenario as I see it:

When Locke turned the NFDW, he "fixed" the island's skipping. The Losties are now stuck back in the time of Dharma prior to the purge. Based on the season opener, we see that Daniel is working in the mines. Based on this last episode, we can see that Jin is apparently working on patrol. They're all probably "stuck" back in the 70's and taking on various roles within the context of the island. Obviously some of them are working for Dharma but perhaps some go to the side of the Others (the ones that perform the purge) or form a third faction. There's the little issue of whether Ben made it back to this time period or got left behind on the plane and if he made it back does he run into himself? Anyhow, that's my perspective on where things stand at this point in time. We'll probably see all of this play out (including Daniel telling a young Charlotte not to come back to the island) in upcoming episodes after the Lock episode.

#79. Posted by: LostedIt at February 19, 2009 11:20 AM

Why is Ben beat up?

He went to the harbor to kill Penny and had to kill Desmond who would obviously be protecting her. It fits that his "loose end" would be killing Penny.

#80. Posted by: JM at February 19, 2009 11:26 AM

Faith - redemption - Jesus - doubting Thomas. Somehow, this eventually will add up. I hope.

Jack diving into the lagoon, fully clothed. Wow. I gave it a 6.

Kate's waterproof mascara must be from the same line as Richard's eyeliner.

Who is the "fellow" that Mrs. H kept referring to???

So, the 06 (and maybe Ben) obviously foomed to the Island. But we saw debris from 316. Huh?

I was soooo hoping that Jin would be listening to Shambala!

Why is no one surprised to learn that Mrs H is Daniel's mum???

If the Island isn't done with Des, and if everyone who left has to return, then Des needs to return as well. Methinks the boat that he and Penny and Little Charlie are on will be sucked back to the Island.

However, I also thought Ben's "promise to an old friend" was in reference to killing Penny. So maybe Des decides on his own to go back to avenge Ben, assuming Penny is dead and he knows that Ben is responsible.

Anyone get a fix on the blonde at the bar where Jack was? I kept waiting for Anna Lucia to show up.

Scarfie is back!

#81. Posted by: lovelost at February 19, 2009 11:49 AM

So this whole reincarnation thing came true. The resurection etc... They are the new Dharma. Oh snap, Dharma, reincarnation, blah, blah blah. So these guys are the new crew that will try do what Dharma couldn't. That's Ben's motive. he stopped Dharma once and he's going to try it again. and again. He doesn't want Dharma to succeed but Widmore does. Get it! Good!

#82. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at February 19, 2009 12:13 PM

Question for all - I know they flew on Ajira flight 316 from LA to Guam, but did they give a date? Does anyone know the date?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I saw something strange. At the end of last week's episode, Ben came into the church and said "Hello Eloise" and she then put out the burning stick she used to light the candle and then turned around. When they showed that same scene in this week's episode, it appeared that she put out the burning stick and THEN Ben said "Hello Eloise." Don't know what this means, or why I picked up on it, but just thought it was weird.

#83. Posted by: Paulo at February 19, 2009 12:16 PM

From other reviewers on the net: "absolute nonsense;" "far-fetched;" "beyond suspending disbelief."

I thought it was a poor episode, almost as bad as Eggtown. Last night, the writers did not even try to give us a rational explanation for anything. It was too unreal. In real life, Frank would never be a captain (he is an alcoholic who quit an airline; he'd never get back seniority at another carrier); Hurley getting out of jail in less than 72 hrs on triple murder charges let alone buying half the seats on a tranocean flight in less than 48 hours from departure; or protective mothers Kate and Sun abandoning their children on a whim.

However, there was another background clue. Last week, it was illusion, this week it was magic. The sudden appearance of the O5 + Ben on the plane was because Jack "wished" it (like the Wiz of Oz?)

But the most obvious element showing how unreal this episode was: the fact that there was no beverage service in first class/business section!!!

#84. Posted by: welh at February 19, 2009 12:17 PM

@44 Ben's mother reference must be a reminder that Ben would see his Mom come out of the jungle when he was a boy. So she could have really taught him how to read...perhaps she was running an Early Childhood Education for Others Center at the time.

#85. Posted by: CC_Boston at February 19, 2009 12:40 PM

@mac

>I'm not sure how I felt about this episode... but on the other, we got a verrrrry convenient Oceanic 6 reunion and an easy return to the island.

I think that might be a function of Darlton's announced decision to show this and next week's eps out of order. Next week's probably delves into the
behind-the-scenes manipulation that got everybody aboard.

>Proxify the dead guy. Since your dead daddy was socked away in Oceanic 815's cargo hold during Trip No. 1, you're going to need to adorn your new dead guy (Locke) with something once owned by the old dead guy (Dr. Christian Shephard).

I was wondering if Mrs Hawking was alos going to specify somethings new, borrowed, and blue.

>Who beat up Ben (Sayid, most likely)?

Then the question becomes "How is Ben still alive?"

The other possibility is Desmond. When Ben said he had a 'loose end to clear up' and a 'promise to an old friend', my blood ran cold thinking of Penny nearby and his promise to Widmore.

o~~~~~~

@6 ilovebenjaminlinusxx said:

>Why does the "condolences" guy look so familiar??? Have we seen him before?

I had the same feeeling. It'll come to me, eventually.
____

@35 ilovebenjaminlinusxx asked:

>Does anyone here call their grandpa "Granddad"?

We always called ours "Granddaddy Backus" in third person, or just "Granddaddy" in direct address. Maybe it's a Southern thing. My own grandchildren, raised by Californian parents, call me "Grandpa"

o~~~~~~

@36 Scooby-Dude postulated:

>Here's a theory: the plane, including Sayid, Sun, Ben, Lapidus, the coffin and the rest of the new redshirts, landed on the runway they were building on the island.

Minor point. The runway construction was on the other island (like Alcatraz).

o~~~~~~

>I don't know if this was addressed already, but I thought that Hurley bought all of the seats on the plane. What happened to that?

I think he bought all that weren't already taken. Reducing, but not eliminating the number of innocents aboard.

o~~~~~~

@44 Amy R proposed:

>If the writers say that nothing that is said is a throwaway, then maybe Ben's hilarious reply "My mother taught me" really means something. Or maybe I'm just grabbing at straws.

Since we know that Ben's mother died giving him birth, this is just a further example of 'Everything Ben says is a lie, including "a", "and", and "the".'

o~~~~~~~

@46 unladenswallow unburdened hiser self of:

>Re: 33 I agree with you, I think the only people who ended up on the island were those who needed to be and that everyone else just went on their merry way to Guam.

>The question is did Lapidus get "beamed out" with the rest of them? If he did, the other pilot is going to have an interesting story to tell the airline when they arrive there.

And if he didn't they're both gonna have to do some 'splainin'. Does thinking of this remind anyone of the opening of the 'Left Behind' novel series?

o~~~~~~~~~

@48 LostedIt shared:

>@Mac - I actually had a TRS-80 way back when! Don't know how many people today would remember that computer.

Old fogey here. Me, too. Also a TI99/4A (bunches of them, actually), and a British import that started with a "C" and was specially adapted for word processing (don't remember the name) and sold by Sears. No Commodore, Altair, or Kaypro, though.
____

>When Desmond starts yelling at Eleanor about fulfilling his 4 years of servitude and all of that, why is it that it seemed to be (at least to me) that he was saying his time there had been explained to him already by someone involved with Dharma?

>I've thought and rethought out his comments and it just seems there's a
conversation implied in his statement that we don't know about (yet).

Remember, Mrs Hawking was the one that told him not to buy a wedding ring because it wasn't in his destiny, figuratively 'sending' him on the path that led to the island.
____

>Was I the only one just waiting, in that initial set of scenes at the Lamp Post, for someone to accidentally walk into the path of the pendulum and bump it out of proper alignment?

Yeah, it looked like Desmond stalked out right through the path, and I was just waiting for it to sweep back in and knock him off his ffeet, or maybe FOOM! him straight back to the island.
___

>Furthermore, was anyone fooled by that opening scene and seriously believed we
were re-watching the series premier?

I was tipped off by the fact of "no Vincent".

o~~~~~~~

@53 vacc proposed:

>As for Kate's roll(sic), based on previous post by stilllost (#25), Kate and Fetus play the part of Claire and Aaron.


Technically, one day later that would be "Kate and embryo". Ir maybe Kate and Zygote.

o~~~~~~~~~

@68 JoePike misremembered:

>Jack: Is he lying?
>Hawking: Probably.

>(paraphrased...prolly didn't get it exactly right...but it cracked me up!)

Jack: Is he telling the truth?
Hawking: Probably not.

(Just cranked up the DVD)

o~~~~~~~~

@71 Anne observed:

>Has anyone noticed that Ben was praying and lit a candle? He also lit one the first time we saw him in church several episodes ago.

Yes, several nice bits of religious imagery, including Ben's thoughts on Thomas the Apostle. At the end of which he calls Jack either Jack or John. I went back to my DVD at lunch time and listened to that spot repeatedly. I believe it was "Jack'
but it's very close.

Also, in the "quiet" chapel there was a rhythmic rushing noise that almost
suggested a beach. Was that the pendulum (wouldn't have thought you could hear it from there) or something else?

o~~~~~~~~

@76 lovelost relayed:

>The biggest reveal was that people in England have no tolerance for redheads. Who knew?

Red hair is associated with Scots and Irish in England, with neither of which is there any love lost (pun intended).

@81

>Jack diving into the lagoon, fully clothed. Wow. I gave it a 6.

This Scout Lifeguard holder gives it a zero.

"Never dive head first into water you can't see into or haven't checked out personally first."

#86. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 19, 2009 12:45 PM

like a lot of viewers, I just didn't get the episode.

Ben and others have traveled in and out of island and the island didn't misbehave before. And they didn't need to take a commercial flight and crash it (i don't think the 316 crashed) to get back to island. If they knew the location and the portal is open, they should be able to use other means. Like Faraday said, this is where we leave science behind and the viewers take the leap of faith at whatever the writers are dishing out.

#87. Posted by: aj at February 19, 2009 12:51 PM

Vacc's Wild theory time:

Perhaps Eloise isn't the only person named "Hawking" involved in this story. The other one being "Stephen".

Invoking the rule that the items you are in contact with FOOM with you - (zodiac raft, clothing, rope etc) - perhaps someone snagged themselves a copy of the Stephen Hawking bestseller "A Brief History of Time" and FOOMED it into the Island's past.

As we learned in season three, this was a popular read among the Others - along with "Latin for Others", and "Your Pregnancy - Week By Week" which oddly covers only the first two trimesters.

Point is, I'm guessing that someone stupid enough to fall for the "Wookie Prisoner" trick was not the only one with a copy of this book on that godforsaken Island.

Perhaps this book was FOOMED by one of our own time traveling Losties (Sawyer looking for some new reading material?) or perhaps we'll learn that they aren't the only ones ever to do the Island's version of the Time Warp.

Either way, this book ends up in pre-dharma Island time and probably becomes Sojer Girl's favorite new read.
Perhaps it was once young Daniel's favorite bedtime story. When Sojer Girl leaves the Island, she conceals her identity to start a new life, and assumes the name of her favorite author - "Hawking"

Coming full circle, the science presented in this book - which explains theories on time travel, general relativity, quantum physics in terms that don't require a degree in mathematics to understand - sets off a chain of events.. these could include:

A) The science behind advances in military capabilities that lead to mankind's inevitable destruction? (the classified photo of the Island from 1954 in the Lamp Post Station)

B) The foundation for Faraday's time travel experiments?

C) The source of Pierre Chang's doctoral thesis?

D) The basis for the formation of the Dharma Initiative?

E) All of the above???

#88. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 12:51 PM

Found a cool site with a screen shot of the island co-ordinates all plotted out on a map. Kinda cool.

http://tinyurl.com/bdsfbu

Who was that blonde in the bar? She seemed to get some nice face-time. Producer's/director's girlfriend? Like Nova from Planet of the Apes or Mrs. Brody from Jaws?

#89. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 19, 2009 12:54 PM

First time poster:

I thought the most interesting line was when Eloise told Jack:
That's why they call it a leap of faith!" or something like that. Didn't Locke use those exact same words to Jack previously. Gave me chills.

Also, Ben definately went to kill Penny. I am hoping that since Widmore knew that Des would be in LA looking for Eloise he got to her first then had his men beat the crap out of Ben.

#90. Posted by: benlinusrocks at February 19, 2009 1:13 PM

Who is the "fellow" that Mrs. H kept referring to???

It's odd that she didn't give a name. I'm thinking it was Daniel who figured out how to find the island's travel schedule.

#91. Posted by: PartyofSix at February 19, 2009 1:21 PM

I think I liked this better when Mac posted at 11am CST. Reading so many posts is hard! :)

I think Condolences Guy was supposed to be pseudo-Sayid until real Sayid showed up.

Since the white flash took the O6 doesn'e that mean the moved in time? The purple flash = a move in space?

@10/Clementine: Good call on the Faraday equations. Does anyone erase the Wobbling Pendulum chalk marks after they calculate a move?

@15/Christine Loves Lost: Jack doesn't like being the leader unless he is pressed into it. When the crashed he was pushed into it because he is a doctor and people look up and respect doctor's to make life and death decisions. Jack didn't want to be followed but grew into it once no one else (but Sawyer) would take charge. I think he was happy to see that all the people who told him no were there (Sun and Hurley).

Could the mystery caller that Kate wouldn't give up to Jack when they were living together be Sawyer's baby mama (Cassidy)? Then Kate would have given Aaron to her because Sawyer whispered her information to Kate before he jumped out of the helicopter. [This is called putting many pieces together.] I can't recall if Sawyer told anyone on the island about Cassidy and Clementine.

@41/iloveben: Hurley bought all the remaining seats. Since he only had one day to make the reservation (we don't know how he found out or who convinced him to go), other people had already bought tickets.

The comic book the Hurley brought was a spanish version of "Y the Last Man". The basic plot of the comic is that a plague wipes out anyone with a Y chromosome except one guy. Sounds like a Dharma-style plan doesn't it?

If Kate is pregnant, won't she die because she is back on the island? Or will Juliet save her? Tune in next week, same FOOM time, same Lost channel!

#92. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 19, 2009 1:24 PM

@ 71 > Ben was praying and lit a candle?

I noticed that and was thinking that's not what I thought Ben would do. Also, the fact he knew so much about Thomas the Apostle, when he was talking to Jack - or was it John?

And - Ya never, ever dive into water unless you are 100% sure how deep it is. Of course that's the water where they found the plane seats and pistols. So he kind of knew that it was probably deep where the water fall was.

I also was waiting for Desmond to get nailed with the pendulum! Bang.


#93. Posted by: dk at February 19, 2009 1:26 PM

Somebody mentioned last week that they thought that Claire's mother was a future version of Claire. Good theory. Regardless, I think that Aaron is with that woman. I can't remember, is Darma defunct? Do we know? Seems strange that that station would exist 30+ years after all the Darma people were killed on the island. i don't know, there's too much to keep up on. And somehow, I still think about how bizarre the food drops are. Finally, I think Ray/Granddad has some island connection. That is where he is trying to escape to. It does feel forced and a strange time to introduce him. I felt that way about the whole episode. Poorly constructed. Sorry about the run on paragraph. Someone's up with my computer, so I can't space correctly.

#94. Posted by: Elizabeth at February 19, 2009 1:31 PM

@91: PartyofSix - Who is the "fellow" that Ms. H said who figured out how to find the island's travel schedule?

At first I also thought she meant Faraday, but (see my post #90) I now think it's either Pierre Chang or Stephen Hawking

#95. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 1:33 PM

@84
For the last season or so people started to think that the central character was John but it's evident that Jack still is the central character. His wish did come true.

#96. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at February 19, 2009 1:37 PM

Vacc,
not buying your Stephen Hawking theory, but maybe it is Dr. Chang-of-the-many-aliases and she just doesn't know which name to call him.

#97. Posted by: PartyofSix at February 19, 2009 1:40 PM

Maybe the candles are some secret code or signal having something to do with Dr. Halliwax/Wickmund.

#98. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 19, 2009 1:43 PM

@57 - I believe the man checking Jack in at the ticket counter told him that it was procedure to examine the contents of the coffin before the plane took off. I think one of the Ajira employees must have found the letter and given it to the flight attendant to give to Jack. I don't think Ben had anything to do with it...

@67 - I think the most telling clue about Ben suffering his wounds at the hand of Desmond is the fact that he called Jack from what appeared to be a marina...weren't Des and Penny living on a boat???

Anyone notice that Jill at the butcher shop claimed she "knew all about" Dr. Shepard? I am sure she got the 411 from Ben when he told her it would be Jack that would pick up Locke's body...but she obviously works for Dharma too, and they always had those pesky files on all the 815 survivors way back when...

I noticed that there was a picture on Mrs. Hawking's blackboard of what appeared to be the island. When I paused the screen as it panned across this picture, the date was stamped "9/23/54"...didn't 815 crash on 9/23/03???

I think that CD might have been on the plane as a stand in for Sawyer (we'll see if we eventually get his backstory...) I did notice that when the camera glanced into the coach section, you could see a young woman with a little boy (Michael/Walt?)...who is the stand in for Boone and Claire? Will the tailies of 316 mimick AL, Libby, and Eko???

I guess I can understand why this episode would have its detractors, but I thought it was really good. I don't believe for a second that everything about the original 815 passengers now aboard 316 is a honkey-dorey and easy-breezy as the episode made it seem last night. I think much more will be revealed next week...we shall see!

#99. Posted by: Vikki at February 19, 2009 1:43 PM

@44: Ben probably did get Johns shoes, knowing they belonged to Jacks dad this would guarantee Ben a trip to the island. Since he isn't allowed there. That is how the letter keeps following Jack. Once Jack(Thomas) believed John(Jesus) FOOM!

The wheel that Ben & John turned in the Orchid Station is really the steering wheel to THE BLACK ROCK. The helmsman sets the course of the ISLAND.

#100. Posted by: mozart is not deaf. at February 19, 2009 1:47 PM

The date of the crash was 9/22/04

#101. Posted by: Rudy at February 19, 2009 1:56 PM

Oh yeah, one more thing.
Why is Jack the only one playing himself while everybody is someone self in recreating 815? This just proves to me that Jack has a bigger role in this then we believe.

#102. Posted by: mozart is not deaf. at February 19, 2009 1:57 PM

@ 101 Rudy said "The date of the crash was 9/22/04..."

Isn't that when the plane took off from LA? Does that take into account crossing the Int'l Date Line which would be a day later (the 23rd)?

Just my SWAG...

#103. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 19, 2009 2:08 PM

@102 - my 2 cents is that Jack is a proxy for Locke.

#104. Posted by: Thundarr the Barbarrian at February 19, 2009 2:13 PM

Remember, Aaron was a fetus when he was on the plane. My guess is that Kate chopped him up and ate him.

#105. Posted by: redstripe at February 19, 2009 2:15 PM

@99: The 9/23/54 date refers to when the Losties still on the island FOOMed back to the nuclear device in the past, when Dharma wiped out the Army guys. That was the approximate date when the military project started.

#106. Posted by: tpull at February 19, 2009 2:18 PM

@86 Cecil Rose
@44 Amy R proposed:

>If the writers say that nothing that is said is a throwaway, then maybe Ben's hilarious reply "My mother taught me" really means something. Or maybe I'm just grabbing at straws.

Since we know that Ben's mother died giving him birth, this is just a further example of 'Everything Ben says is a lie, including "a", "and", and "the".'

HA! You are right. There is nothing he says that we should take at face value. I forgot for a moment.

By the way, I totally agree with all who say they were waiting for Des to get knocked over by the pendulum. I was kind of disappointed when it didn't happen, even though I love the guy!

#107. Posted by: Amy R at February 19, 2009 2:19 PM

Ben could possibly be a proxy for Sawyer having just committed a murder(?) ...filling the role of a Conman

#108. Posted by: MattS at February 19, 2009 2:21 PM

First time for me.

Anyone keeping track of how many times Ben has had his face bloodied? It's an Equal Opportunity Target to be sure, any land mass, any time period. Might explain why his eyes appear alittle loose in their sockets.

#109. Posted by: pg at February 19, 2009 2:37 PM

@87 aj said:

>Ben and others have traveled in and out of island and the island didn't misbehave before. And they didn't need to take a commercial flight and crash it (i don't think the 316 crashed) to get back to island. If they knew the location and the portal is open, they should be able to use other means. Like Faraday said, this is where we leave science behind and the viewers take the leap of faith at whatever the writers are dishing out.

Maybe their usual travels havbe been impeded by denial of use of (1) the Flame communications station, (2) the Undersea Looking Glass station, and (3) the submarine.

o~~~~~~~

@95 vacc theorized:


>>@91: PartyofSix - Who is the "fellow" that Ms. H said who figured out how to find the island's travel schedule?

>At first I also thought she meant Faraday, but (see my post #90) I now think it's either Pierre Chang or Stephen Hawking


Enzio Valenzetti?

#110. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 19, 2009 2:45 PM

Great review, as always, Mac! LOVED the predicted ending. I'm up to post 57, but need to get back to teaching.......

_____________

Does anyone else think that 'ghost" Charlie might have visited Hurley one last time and told him to get on that plane?....oh.....and don't forget to bring me a new guitar?

_______________
@13 Clemintine.....thanks for the photo pick me up...He's a looker that one! :)

#111. Posted by: ChiTownTeach at February 19, 2009 2:45 PM

This was a horrible episode... Really? Your "granddad" just happened to call on the same day you need something of your dead fathers....

Didn't jacks dad give him his wristwatch on the night before jacks wedding to sarah? Or am I wrong? That would have been much more believeable that a stupid pair of shoes....

Remember the initials in the bracelets of Sayid's woman friend and Naomi? Maybe the "r" stands for Ray.....

On another note... When the "frosties" found the airline water bottle they were in the outrigger paddling around the island to the Orchid - they were being shot at by people in the outrigger behind them...The O5 perhaps? Someone got shot, didn't they?

#112. Posted by: lostinminnesota at February 19, 2009 2:48 PM

So daniel was working with Charles widmor We know that because that is the reason charlotte and Daniel are on the Isalnd to beguin with.

What if Charles Widmor Knew Daniel's mother. As he says to Desmond "I think you will find that she is a rather private person now days" or something along those lines. He wanted Desmond not to go looking for her or answers to the island because it would somehow hurt or invlove his daughter penny. So he was hesitant on giving him her adress.

What if Charles is trying to get the oceanic 6 back on the island also and knows what Misses Farhety doing. What if he was behind getting them to go to her?

I think there is a majior connection with charles and daniel's mother.. maybe iam on the wrong track but what could this be? there has to be something there.

and is Kate replacing pregnant Claire on the plane?

#113. Posted by: Charles and Misss Farhety at February 19, 2009 2:50 PM

My daughter reminded me of something we thought of last night. When Jack was putting the shoes on Locke, did anyone else expect Locke to start talking to him? Of course I get that feeling every time I am at a veiwing. Creepy!

#114. Posted by: Amy R at February 19, 2009 2:58 PM

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but the comment that Ben made in regards to his mom teaching him to read... is that only supposed to be a joke or is that a clue to Ben's mother being reincarnated in someway? Didn't she die during child birth?

#115. Posted by: wanttobefound at February 19, 2009 2:58 PM

I'm not sure if someone has ever mentioned this, but there are a some similarities between LOST and the Canadian movie CUBE. At some point I thought both were following the same line of "Social" experiment, but with the episodes this season, too much time has been dedicated to explain what the island is. If you haven't seen the movie, I do recommend it.

#116. Posted by: afraal at February 19, 2009 3:09 PM

Regarding Ben, Eloise, and their candles: It brings up the whole striking tonality of that church - I could practically smell the incense, what with the stained glass windows, votives, and the prominent placing of that famous Caravaggio painting. (It jumped out at me from an ArtHist 101 class 20 years ago - pretty hard image to forget!) the painting is "The Incredulity of St. Thomas," and Caravaggio was a flamingly Catholic painter, associated with all the Baroque, dramatic imagery of the Counter-Reformation. A markedly mystical, "ecstatic" period in Church history (think Teresa of Avila).

So I was intrigued by all the church imagery and ritual enactments because I'd have thought that if former Dharma-ites and number-crunching physicists would affiliate with any flavor of Christianity it would be, heh, Unitarianism or something. But it seems we are not heading towards some middle-of-road compromise between faith/mystic and reason, but a constant flickering or interplay between the two extremes.

"We ain't all Baptists here..."

BTW, just looked up the St. Thomas painting on Wikipedia, which ends with: "The classical composition carefully unites the four heads in the quest for truth. Christ's head is largely in shadow, as He is the person who is the least knowable." Sounds a lot like our Jacob.

Re. Kate allowing herself to leave Aaron behind: last season, Claire's apparition told Kate none too subtly to NOT, under any circumstances, bring Aaron back to the island. Maybe C. paid K. yet another visit. Do we have any evidence yet that off-island apparitions are Smoky-like no-good liars? Let's see, Charlie and Ana Lucia have chatted with Hurley, Christian to Jack I think...can't remember who else. I don't remember sensing malevolence or deceit in those conversations.

Re: Ajira flight proxies: who covered for Vincent??

#117. Posted by: istillheartsayid at February 19, 2009 3:29 PM

Well Well...

ill be honest lost has lost its way. I missed the days where polar bears ran loose, sawyer chased boars and everybody looked for vincent the vanishing dog all the time. Now its all sciencey which takes all the drama out of lost and comes up with pointless computers and pendulum pens.

But this episode shows that stuff may be getting back to normal. :D finally!! + i remember from season 1 how charlies guitar appeared as if from no-where completely unscratched an locke just so happened to find it.

e.g charlies guitar = Richards compass

:)
good post btw 'Enjoy the trip and holla at your boy Jacob when you arrive.'
XD

#118. Posted by: Hayley at February 19, 2009 3:34 PM

>I didn't think that neglecting to bring Aaron to the island was an oversight. To the contrary, I think Kate was somehow trying to protect him.
→ 36. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 19, 2009 7:49 AM

Absolutely, I think she remembered Claire’s visit and demand not to bring Aaron back to the island or she was visited again. Of course, we don’t yet know why she changed her mind about returning herself. Maybe she wasn’t given a choice about separating from Aaron. I don’t believe she had a choice.


>There was waayyyyyyy too much going on in this episode where people (Jack, Hurley, etc.) were all taking things at face value and way too calmly for my comfort. No drama? No trepidations?
→ 48. Posted by: LostedIt at February 19, 2009 9:25 AM

I think maybe they’d had so much drama leading up to their decisions to go that by the point they boarded the plane, they had nothing left for drama. You know how when you struggle with a huge decision, but once it is finally made, sometimes you just calmly carry it out.


>And where are the other people on the plane???? It's obvious it didnt crash
→ 50. Posted by: grimgravyX at February 19, 2009 9:30 AM

I don’t think that’s obvious yet. The frosties did time jump and see an Ajira jet crashed on the beach. It is unlikely to be another Ajira jet entirely (other than 316, I mean). I think the plane crashed, but for some reason the O5 were foomed first.

>looks like the O6 will probably lose one as it seems it was them chasing Juliet/Sawyer/etc in the wooden raft. Remember the Aijra h20 bottle in the boats.
→ 67. Posted by: PeterIsLost at February 19, 2009 10:16 AM

Even if the people in the boat were from the plane, I don’t think they were the O6. They have never been the type to shoot first and ask questions later.


>My daughter reminded me of something we thought of last night. When Jack was putting the shoes on Locke, did anyone else expect Locke to start talking to him?
→ 114. Posted by: Amy R at February 19, 2009 2:58 PM

I definitely thought of that…

#119. Posted by: Kristi at February 19, 2009 3:40 PM

I have to comment on Benjamin Linus praying...in a church... Really?!? His lighting a candle so solemnly- give me a break. I was expecting the roof to cave in and squish him 'til his eyes took on truly buggy proportions after his Sunday School lesson to Jack, I mean, doubting Jack. Either that or for him to combust in a puff of Smokeyness. He's so evil that it's fun to watch just who follows him and how he'll manipulate them. Poor schmucks.

#120. Posted by: lardiea at February 19, 2009 3:51 PM

→ 117. Re: Ajira flight proxies: who covered for Vincent??
- - - -
I don't think anything needs to be proxied if it is still WITH the island. Vincent was doing well, last I saw him - unless the flaming arrows got him. yummmm... Dog-Kabob on a bed of Dharma Minute Rice.

#121. Posted by: DocH at February 19, 2009 3:58 PM

Well, I think that Ben definitely had a run in with the Brutha from anutha mutha. He was at the Marina when he called Jack, but I think I remember Des and Penny flying to L.A. right? Maybe they were renting a boat. I think sneaky Ben had a hand in everyone getting on the plane, although I don't think Hurley anticipated Ben being on the plane as well, hence his reaction. Next week will all be about Locke supposedly, and maybe some more answered questions.

#122. Posted by: soxy1824 at February 19, 2009 4:05 PM

From a screencap of Jin's Dharma jumpsuit, it appears the logo is of a five pointed star. As I mentioned last week, in Egyptian mythology, a pentagram or five pointed star was the symbol for the afterlife.

#123. Posted by: welh at February 19, 2009 4:06 PM

I bet if Ben DID kill Penny and Des got in the way, Ben used his DEATH STICK on him to show him who's boss. Probably made him pass out or something.

#124. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 4:09 PM

Wow, that was pathetic. Apparently I already said that. Nevermind.

#125. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 4:10 PM

By the way -- Sorry about the whole "Granddad" thing. It was probably weird for me just because Jack was saying it.

#126. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 4:13 PM

"I'm not sure if someone has ever mentioned this, but..."

If I read that one more time I'm gonna AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH...uh, excuse me. With a nod and a wink to davidrh. I feel your red pain after reading 120 really repetitive posts. BTW, JWTB.

I have some thoughts to add but, for now, off to activities with the kids!

#127. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 19, 2009 4:20 PM

I read an interview with Evangeline Lilly and she said that in an upcoming Kate episode (I think the Feb 25th) you would understand her decision of why she decided to go back.
Swapping this week and next week's episode might not have bee a great idea.

#128. Posted by: Rudy at February 19, 2009 4:22 PM

@ LostedIt - 48
"@ilovebejaminlinusxxx - must be winter break; you've made almost half of the posts so far! ;)"

No, actually I finished my work really early in my business org class... so of course I would spend the extra hour on this! =]

#129. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 4:29 PM

I think the people in the Ajira canoe shooting at the Losties isn't the O5. Ok, actually I had a bunch of arguments why not and now I keep crossing them out because I have reasons why it could be so here's me talking to myself:

1) First and foremost, what would a canoe be doing on an airplane, and if flight 316 actually did crash what makes anyone think a canoe would land 100% intact? - Well, lots of things from flight 815 managed to land intact so now that blows that out of the water.
2) The existing storyline has them all landing some time back in the Dharma-populated era. The incident with the shooting happened some time in the future based on our conversation in previous weeks. - Well, that was before the 05 used that plane to get back and end up in the past. Now anything's possible regarding both the cargo on that flight and the destination in time of that cargo.
3) Why in the world would any of the Losties shoot at their own? They're not going to attack people indiscriminately. - Well, that was before we had more solid evidence that some, if not all of them actually joined in on the Dharma initiative back in the past. If that is true who knows how integrated they become or who they actually believe is in the canoe they're following?
4) There's no evidence that the plane crashed. I know some people mentioned debris on the beach but I think they were actually referring to the scene where Danielle's team crash lands on the shore. There was debris seen by the Losties at that point, not from some plane crash. The only other debris shown to date was that of the Losties' own beach-based camp after it had been abandoned and unused for a period of time. - Both very true, I say to myself, but that doesn't mean the plane didn't also create a debris field that we haven't yet seen, or if you take the canoe into account perhaps what we took to be the Losties' camp was actually a leftover of the people from the Ajira plane crash.

Ok, so these are some of the arguments I had come up with and the reasons I'd crossed them out. So could the people in the canoe shooting at the Losties actually be other Losties? I'd have to now say it's at least possible. Am I senile and do I talk to myself on message boards? I'd give that a definitely probable. Is it entertaining nonetheless? Depends on your perspective...

#130. Posted by: LostedIt at February 19, 2009 4:29 PM

I know this has nothing to do with this episode, but Jin is really funny when he's extremely mad or annoyed. I forgot what remdinded me of that.

#131. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 4:35 PM

@109. Posted by: pg
And an excellent first post, pg. Pay no attention to complaints from i<3ben. :=)

#132. Posted by: hurling at February 19, 2009 4:38 PM

Those who think Aaron is with Cassidy or Claire's mom I think are barking up the wrong tree, remember the psychic told Claire that she was the only one who could raise him, no one else. I think that Claire and/or Christian or proxies showed up to claim Aaron, and that is why Kate was an emotional wreck when she first saw Jack. In contrast, the morning after, Kate seemed almost preternaturally calm and collected. So yes I think Kate is knocked-up, the newly conceived embryo has now replaced Aaron as her "constant" of sorts.

Of course if the island "needed" her to get pregnant and have a child than she needed to leave it in order to bring the child to term successfully, because all the mothers who conceive on the island die. So apparently her and Jack leaving the island was part of the grand design of the island. This would imply that their off-spring is going to be important, I think....maybe.....who knows.....?

#133. Posted by: unladeswallow at February 19, 2009 4:45 PM

Infrequent poster... but not sure how much has been referenced from Joseph Campbell "A Hero with a Thousand Faces" in the Blog.

With the 3 generation reference to Jack, Dad, and GrandDad last night, you might think Jack is 'da man. Jacob. Probably not, but I might be vindicated by the end of 06.

#134. Posted by: IslandHoppwe at February 19, 2009 4:47 PM

@ davidrh - 78
Am I really that presumptuous? Sorry if I am. I'm usually not really. I think LOST. makes me different.

#135. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 4:57 PM

I was struck by the religious tone throughout this episode - it's pretty obvious that "316" refers to John 3:16 in the Bible about God sending his only son to save the world. And now we have John Locke dying to "save" the island, and coming back to life, ala Jesus. John was always the "man of faith" versus Jack the "man of science/reason," but now Jack is becoming a "believer." Ben basically called Jack a doubting Thomas, and Jack's refusal to read the letter was part of his refusal to believe. Interesting that the letter only said "I wish you had *believed* me."

My guess is that John is Jacob's son, sent to save the island and make people believe that the island was their destiny. Does that make Ben Satan? (lying snake) :)

#136. Posted by: hawkeye at February 19, 2009 5:01 PM

@ LostedIt - 79
I agree! That would make sense. The doubt about the "did Locke stop the time skipping?" question was that if he did stop the time skipping, then when did Faraday get the chance to go back to Chang's time and Charlotte's childhood time? This definitely answered everything at the same time. Nice one. =]

#137. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 19, 2009 5:01 PM

Yet Another Unanswered Question:

Will Sun's settlement from Ajira Airlines enable her to have a controlling interest in BOTH Paik AND Widmore Companies?

#138. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 5:02 PM

@71. Posted by: Anne
@ everyone else discussing this

re: Ben, Praying, Candles

I'll take a guess that there aren't too many Catholics in this forum?

As we all know, Ben is a strange and wonderfully complicated man. His reference to doubting Thomas suggests that he does have some sort of theological background, and to some degree, he might be a believer of sorts, though obviously a hypocritical one. Whose kidding who - plenty of those in the world ;)

In any case - I think he was praying for Alex. In a church, one lights up a candle in memory of a lost one, and it would make sense that he would do this for Alex.

This would also explain the unfinished business he had to take care of - ie avenge her death by paying a visit to Desmond and Penny

#139. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 5:04 PM

>>>1) First and foremost, what would a canoe be doing on an airplane, and if flight 316 actually did crash what makes anyone think a canoe would land 100% intact? - Well, lots of things from flight 815 managed to land intact so now that blows that out of the water.

Duh!!! There were Canadians on board. Sheesh!

#140. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at February 19, 2009 5:06 PM

Funny thought - Picture this scene: The O5 FOOM from the plane but not Ben. Ben looks around and realizes he got left behind like a red-headed stepchild. Do we get to see a shot of him screaming out something like Sawyer usually does? (Or maybe he just yells WAAAAAAAALT!!! for old times sake?)

#141. Posted by: LostedIt at February 19, 2009 5:11 PM

→ 92. Posted by: PiecesofArzt
If Kate is pregnant, won't she die because she is back on the island? Or will Juliet save her? Tune in next week, same FOOM time, same Lost channel!

only if they get preggers ON the island will the child (and mother) die.

#142. Posted by: Skipper at February 19, 2009 5:12 PM

→ 105. Posted by: redstripe
Remember, Aaron was a fetus when he was on the plane. My guess is that Kate chopped him up and ate him.


BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA....................I laughed so hard... thanks!

#143. Posted by: Skipper at February 19, 2009 5:13 PM

Sorry if someone has already posted this, but I think that Ben was at the dock on the phone bloody after killing Penny (or maybe their son Charlie or both)and that will be the reason Des goes back to the island ("the island isn't finished with you yet") to kill Ben and avenge Penny or young Charlie's death?
Thoughts?

#144. Posted by: Stefanie at February 19, 2009 5:15 PM

Amy R., you've got some great observations.

@ 114 > Yep, I thought John would at least twitch or talk or something. There's got to be a huge "Aha" moment coming up with this show. You know - one of those "Holy sh*t" type moments where everyone will be talking forever. I think we need one, and soon.

Hey, my niece has joined the group!!!

#145. Posted by: dk at February 19, 2009 5:18 PM

Perhaps I am being a bit presumptuous, but I reckon ilovebenjaminlinusxx has a deep, everlasting crush on Jack. I love your posts, but I think some thought should be hurled in that direction.

#146. Posted by: Rich in Baltimore at February 19, 2009 5:44 PM

Infrequent poster - Everyone has been asking who could be related to who. If Jin is in the '70's, could he be Miles father?

Love this blog!!!

#147. Posted by: iheartsawyer at February 19, 2009 5:51 PM

I agree that this episode was "off" even though lots of interesting stuff happened.

Random thoughts:

* Why the heck did Jack wear a suit and dress shoes - Kate even made a comment about boots being better for the island, but he didn't do it - for that matter, why didn't anybody bring even basics - a flashlight? Hello?

* I was actually squirming in my chair waiting for that pendulum to hit someone!

* So clearly Widmore knows about the Lamppost and probably used it - who the heck does Hawking work for?!!

* Seems likely that Ben went after Penny - results unknown.

* Might Aaron have gone to the original adoptees?

* Did Lapidus get sucked out too - freaky for the copilot if so....

* Are there two Bens on the island now?

* I thought the Jack/Doubting Thomas and "I wish you had believed me" line were a nice little juxtaposition.

* Is Jin Dharma, or Other?

* Getting back to the DW, how the heck old is that thing anyway? It seems Black Rockish, but other island structures seem ancient (heiroglyphs, etc) and it was still there when the Orchid AND the well weren't.

* Do all the Carthage/Tunisia references point to them as the ancient ones?

* Folks talked about Locke pulling instead of pushing the DW, but that depends how you look at it - he pulled it the same way Ben pushed it, clockwise.

#148. Posted by: Caelum at February 19, 2009 5:52 PM

Another quick thought: now that we know (do we ever really)the 2ndhoneymooners went back to the 70s, does that mean the outrigger Ajira bottle DIDN'T indicate a future flash?

#149. Posted by: Caelumb at February 19, 2009 5:59 PM

@148 * Why the heck did Jack wear a suit and dress shoes - Kate even made a comment about boots being better for the island, but he didn't do it - for that matter, why didn't anybody bring even basics - a flashlight? Hello?

Weren't they supposed to make their trip back as much like the original trip? If so, then they couldn't come too prepared. I think the only changes they may have made were to "proxy" in someone else.

#150. Posted by: Amy R at February 19, 2009 6:06 PM

@149: Caelumb does that mean the outrigger Ajira bottle DIDN'T indicate a future flash?

It was a future flash because the beach camp was intact.

#151. Posted by: vacc at February 19, 2009 6:14 PM

I haven't read all the reviews yet but the one big thing that popped out of this episode was the end when Jack read John's suicide not and it said, "I wished you believed in me. Then my Tivo ends, (I wactched it recorded) and it gives the name of the episode, "316." The only thing I thought of was, "oh how clever, the writers are thinking of the bible verse, John 316. You know the one, "God so loved the world that he gave his only son, and whom so ever believe in him, should not perish but have everlasting life."

So, I was thinking it's not just the flight being 316 but a more meaningful message. This goes along with the poster who said the lamp post was how the kids in the Lion the Witch and the Wordrobe found their way back home. That was a Christian-based book where the lion was to represent Jesus.

Anyway, there's something to this. Did anyone get that?

#152. Posted by: janet at February 19, 2009 6:24 PM

Hawkeye - I'm with you on the references to Christianity. When Locke fell into the well his leg was pierced with something: Christ was crucified. He asked for help turning the wheel to save everyone but Jack dad says,"no." Christ called out to His Father who did not intervene. The John 3:16 reference is there, Doubting Thomas etc etc. It will be interesting to see if this theme continues.

#153. Posted by: Sly at February 19, 2009 6:33 PM

In my opinion, the episode in and of itself was just ok. The exposition was just a little too convenient. That being said, I think what this episode did was set a stage for future episodes. create anticipation for the "in between" times for most of the characters, and provide set up for backstories.

-- What's the deal with Ben and the candle lighting?
I think it is his attempt at pennance or to obtain some type of absolution from Jacob, so he can return to the island.

-- Who is the "fellow" Hawking refers to?
Conventional wisdom would lead me to think it is Daniel himself. He has dedicated his life to studying time travel and this type of phenomena. But is that really the case, or is it just the Staples Easy Button talking?

-- What really did happen to baby Aaron?
My initial reaction at seeing her expression and reaction to Jack's question was, "Holy crap, did she kill the kid?"
Once I thought about it, I believe Kate did leave him with Clementine and Cassidy (Sawyer's kid). On the fringes of my thoughts is that somehow the lawyer has strongarmed her into giving him Aaron until she can return. I thought her restriction and conditions from her court case was that she could not leave the state.

-- What conversation did Desmond have that lead to his "years of servitude" line, and where did he go after he stormed off?
Back to his boat.

-- Why is Ben bloodied?
He followed Des back to the boat to handle his "promise to an old friend". My initial take was he was going after Penny. I think that's exactly what he did...or tried to do. I think Widmore also had Des followed. Penny had said not to underestimate him...he knew where Hawking was...and might even have known Ben was there too...could Widmore have used Desmond and Penny to draw Ben into a trap? I think Widmore's men and Ben had a confrontation and Ben had to lay low for a while. Either that or Ben really did kill Penny, and that will lead to Des following after Ben to kill him by following him to the island and ultimately to turn the FDW that one final time to correct the course once and for all (right after he pees his name on the beach from the helicopter Frank flies for him)

-- Why does no one ask Ben what happened to him?
Just the night before he had no bruises and no sling. I assume it is that they expect whatever he says to be some kind of lie.

-- How did Sayid get taken into police custody?
I think Ben ratted him out.

-- How did Hurley get out of police custody?
Ben's lawyer had said he'd be out by morning.

-- Why does Hurley show up with the things he does (guitar, comic book)?
I think he had visits in jail from Dead Charlie, Libby and Eko (yes, Eko) to tell him what to pack.

-- How does Frank come to be a pilot for that airline in general and for that flight in particular?
I think in a convoluted backstory (if one is given) Widmore founds that airline and employs Frank. Given Frank's background as an alcoholic, he would need a HUGE favor to fly again. Friends with ownership can go a long way.

-- Do the O5 get FOOMed to the island, or does the plane crash?
-- Would Frank and Ben FOOM with them?
-- If Frank FOOMs, would the plane crash? That would explain why there would be no 'splainin' to do if the plane landed in Guam with no pilot.
-- Do the O5 FOOM to different times?
-- Does Locke become the new Christian Shepard, just with nicer footwear? Why would the footwear matter if he has a compound fracture in his leg anyway?

-- When does Walt come back into the fold?
-- Is Walt's grandmother related to Rose in any way?

#154. Posted by: Gumbo at February 19, 2009 6:35 PM

@136. Posted by: hawkeye

re: religious tone

The spiritual theme has been around throughout the entire series, but very thick here.

You mention that Locke might be the son of Jacob, but I'll invoke the trinity on you (father, son, holy spirit), and suggest that Locke will in fact turn out to be Jacob.

Ben is most certainly calling Jack a doubting Thomas. Good catch on linking the letter with that!

The other link of course is what Ben explained - ie the lesser known info about Thomas (when Jesus wanted to return to Judea knowing he would die, Thomas wanted to go with him). We know that it is after Jack meets Jeremy Bantham, that he too wants to return to the island. He flies on planes, hoping they will crash and bring him back...

For those unawares, when Jesus rises from the dead several days after his crucifiction and encounters his apostles, Thomas cannot believe it is him, and insists on touching the holes in his hand (from the crucifiction) before he believes completely. This is in fact what the painting depicts.

Ben states - "He just couldn't wrap his mind around it". Sounds like this is foreshadowing of what Jack's reaction will be when they return to the island, and Locke comes back in whatever form (perhaps he will be like Christian?).

What's funny is that the whole Thomas story is Ben's response to Jack's question of "who is she?" regarding Daniel's mom. In the Lost world, we can't have too many answers too quickly, after all!

I wonder if Ben really knew about the Dharma station? My reading of this is that while she met with Ben upstairs previously, she never took him down there. I think the weird reactions we have seen from Ben (Faradays mom, etc) is because he has realized that she is connected to Widmore, which in turn fuels his revenge plan. Widmore did have her address, after all....

#155. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 6:43 PM

Thanks for the great review Mac!

Random thoughts:

1) Does anybody have an idea about how Mrs. Hawking got John Lockes suicide note?

2) I loved the scene with Hurley on the plane, telling his neighbor to buckle up. Did you notice him slipping on his eye mask, and leaning back like he didn't have a care in the world? All of this at the same time that the plane is lurching from side to side. Hurley definitely wanted to go back, and was happy that it was finally happening. It also showed his confidence that all would work out fine... I mean, wouldn't you be nervous with all that bouncing around even if you 'thought' you knew what was going to happen.

3) Maybe someone who is much better with science can help me here. I am wondering a few things about the pendulum scenes. First, why is the pendulum traveling in an oval shaped path? Is it the magnetic field? Also, why are there 'scratch' marks straight down the center, when it doesn't seem like the tip ever goes there. Last, how could you locate a moving island on a stationary map? In fact, why wouldn't it be a globe instead? Do we know that the island stays in the same general area (So. Pacific)?

4) Everybody is saying Ben had gone to kill Penny, and part of the evidence for this is that he is at the marina. If I am remembering right, it wasn't long ago that Des spoke to Charles Whidmore in England. I was under the impression that they had only a day or so to get to LA, so that would mean they had to fly there, not sail. Right?

5) The water bottle in the canoe has always bothered me. Would you really hold on to your water bottle while you are being FOOMed out of a plane, or worse, crashing? Also, why would you leave it behind in a canoe? If you are stranded, that water bottle is a precious commodity. It sure beats carrying water around in a coconut! My thought was that this future flash was at a time when Ajira was running tours to the island. I really don't think it is from the same time as the O5 return. I also think based on the deterioration on Vincents leash that quite some time has passed...

@ 92 - If Kate is pregnant, there should be no problem with the baby because he was conceived off island.

@ Joepike - I agree, a Mom would generally never leave a child in favor of a man. I wonder what is going on with Sun, and for that matter Kate. Why is Kate even going back, she must be convinced that it is in the best interests of Aaron, but why? Who got to her? What did they tell her?

I was a bit underwhelmed with this epi, but I am sure it will all make more sense one or two weeks down the line.

#156. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 19, 2009 6:47 PM

-134 re 3 generations of Shephards*

If we believe that Kate is pregnant, then we might have a 4th generation.

*shepherd n. One who herds, guards, and tends sheep. One who cares for and guides a group of people, as a minister or teacher

#157. Posted by: lovelost at February 19, 2009 6:48 PM

Being a Catholic, I totally get the candles, incense, etc. And yes, lighting a votive for someone we've LOST.

Also...while I can't recount exactly when...there have been several scenes throughout the series with Locke lying prostrate. They bring to mind the Vitruvian Man (ala Leonardo and the DaVinci Code.)

#158. Posted by: lovelost at February 19, 2009 6:56 PM

I don't get it.
If the island was moving all along at Hawking says then why did they need to turn the FDW to mave it?
When des turned the key did it stop the island from moving and force them to start it moving again?

And if it was moving all that time how were they able to come and go at will in a submarine following certain coordinates? Did they have windows of time they had to do this?
And the Dharma drops? Did they work similarly to how the 05 got back? Did they calculate where the island would be and FOOM the food to the island out of a plane?


I have to agree with lost2the world. Anyone see the rules right above the box where we type our comments? #6 please scan through previous posts...
So if you don't know if its been mentioned already then you probably didn't scan previous posts.
Based on the number of davidrh's AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! moments so far, it seems that this season there's been a lot more laffos around posting before reading. Can we give it a shot please? It wouldn't take everyone as long to skim all of the posts if some of these redundant posts were avoided.
By the way, I think 316 also refers to John 3:16 and I think Ben called Jack from a marina after trying to kill Penny but got roughed up by Des. ANTP?

#159. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 19, 2009 6:56 PM

I think in a convoluted backstory (if one is given) Widmore founds that airline and employs Frank. Given Frank's background as an alcoholic, he would need a HUGE favor to fly again. Friends with ownership can go a long way
→ 154. Posted by: Gumbo

Love that theory...Widmore owns the airline. I guess he could also fake another crash if he had to.

#160. Posted by: lovelost at February 19, 2009 7:00 PM

@149. Posted by: Caelumb
re: ajira bottle from beach camp

Could this be a hint that when the flash occurred aboard flight 316, not everyone was returned to the same time? Jack, Kate and Hurley are together in whatever time period, whilst Ben, Sayid, Sun, and others could have been sent to abandoned Beach Camp time.

#161. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 7:01 PM

Didn’t Penny and Desmond take Frank with them after the ’06 left in their raft? Penny has huge connections and may have helped Frank obtain that airline job. After all, he helped save Desmond. I do think that Penny knows more than she’s letting on. I also think she’s still alive. I can’t see Widmore allowing Desmond and Penny to travel to LA without having them followed. He must want to know how is daughter is doing. I also think Widmore knows Mrs. Hawking from the island and has kept in touch. It does seem odd that he doesn’t use her to go back but I don’t think he can. I imagine he has tried and was rejected. The island may be done with him. However, that doesn’t mean he can’t send others as he did with the freighter crew.

What if the Ajira plane crashed on the runway (as others mentioned), on the other island, after the 3 were “foomed” out? The survivors could have taken the canoes over to the main island and brought the water along to drink. I’m sure there would have been a stash on the plane. If this is the case, the question then is, why aren’t they in the 70’s as Jack, Kate and Hurley are predicted to be? Someone from Ajira had obviously been to the camp in the future as it hadn’t existed in the 70’s (as has been pointed out before). Puzzling. But then, most of it is.

#162. Posted by: Gris at February 19, 2009 7:04 PM

Not agreeing overall with the general consensus of this being an underwhelming episode.
I found it much more interesting than last week's. I love how the big LOST logo appears at the end of an episode with that FOOM sound and I just can't believe 60 minutes has passed. It goes by so fast.
I think the producers put this episode first because they realized by doing so there was one big scene which explained a lot of things but then the whole rest of the episode would do nothing but generate more questions. I have a feeling a lot of the suspense and mystery from those questions would have been lost if this episode were shown after the next one.

#163. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 19, 2009 7:06 PM

Here's a thought. Even after Dharma was eliminated from the island by Ben, Desmond was pushing the button and being supplied by someone (remember the food drop of generic goods?)

Were the food drops coming through the "windows" of opportunity found by the pendulum? It would presuppose that there was still some Dharma entity (or others) at work that continued to send supplies in order to keep the island from destabilizing. Were they working with Eloise? Or were they working from a different point of magnetism. Remember, there were several throughout the world, but Dharma was only interested in the island.

#164. Posted by: JoeS at February 19, 2009 7:15 PM

@159. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes

I think it has been clear for a long time that a good chunk of posters here do NOT read through the posts, but simply want to chime in.

My pet peeve - People who reference posting numbers, but not the person. Can you get any more lazier? First of all, post #'s can change. If Mac is forced to remove an inappropriate post, or a double post, #'s will change. Secondly, as a poster, I do not remember the actual number's of all my posts.

If someone writes something to @8, @17, @23, do really expect me to remember that this was my post that you are referencing?

"I am not a number, I am a free man!"

/rant

#165. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 7:22 PM

@163
Thanks, Crispy. I thought I was all alone on loving this ep. It felt like a season opener to me. Someone mentioned last week that this season was designed to be like mini-seasons, and I totally felt it. Last week seemed like a season-ender cliff hanger.
Maybe it's just me (and my sister) but I get excited at the beginning of each ep and stay thrilled to the end! My sister and I call each other during every commercial and try to figure everything out. Unfortunately, we are not as insightful as most of this forum's posters.
Anyway, I just love this show, and as much as I want questions answered, I dread the final episode. :(

#166. Posted by: Amy R at February 19, 2009 7:27 PM

@→ 165. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 7:22 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean to be so lazy. I'm new to this.

#167. Posted by: Amy R at February 19, 2009 7:30 PM

A few thoughts...

I think there is way more to the introduction of Ray/Granddad. The fact that he always tries "to go on trips" and packed this time because "one of these times he's gonna get there" just seems fishy to me. Also he just happened to have packed something that was essential for a return trip to the island. Hmmm...could Christian have booted his daddy, Ray/Jacob, off the island in a power play? Gotta believe there is more to come from Granddad.

@ 163. Crispy Seaplanes

I agree that this was a good episode. I have never understood those who complain about all of the "unrealistic" elements of the show. If one wants to make that argument we could return to season 1, episode 1. How could that many people make it through that violent of a crash with nary a scratch? This entire series is fantasy ladies and gentlemen!!! This is the most interesting, creative, thought provoking show that I have ever watched and I am going to enjoy every minute of it until the very end. Now I feel better.

@ 165. shikotee

I'm with ya brutha that the posting just numbers is annoying. Please explain what comment you are referring to at the very least so we know what in the name of Jin you are talking about. Otherwise you're talking to yourself and not adding anything.

Whew! I feel better.

#168. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 19, 2009 7:47 PM

Oh, also best line by a mile...

"I don't know Jack, you got to stay after school with Mrs. Hawking. Why don't you tell me?" Ben to Jack on the plane.

I love, love Ben!

#169. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 19, 2009 7:50 PM

@ 167. Posted by: Amy R

If you are referring to a post or two above you, it is not a problem. Further down the line, it can get really confusing.

Calling it "lazy" may have been harsh and unjust for some people, but the point in itself is valid.

#170. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 7:52 PM

Bernard and Rose??
Adam and Eve??
The two stones!
One black, and one white.

#171. Posted by: mtncbn at February 19, 2009 7:59 PM

I think grandad is going to be important and perhaps he was on the island back in the 50's with Charles Widmore and Eloise and Richard. He seems to be the right age. Perhaps the father fixation goes back more than two generations.

Interesting to watch the trailer for next week's show - Locke in a cruxifiction pose holding the noose before he hangs himself and it looks like Ben kneeling at his feet watching him (Like the roman soldiers below the cross). Locke may not get pierced in the side but he did have his shin bone rip through is leg. More religious imagery. Though John does seem to be more of a John the Baptist type for-telling the coming of the Messiah and willing to sacrifice his life. Plus Jack's name "Shepherd" - this could be references to Jesus Christ, with the losties being his flock.


This is getting a bit too biblical for this lapsed Catholic. So I will end by saying Kate and Jack's kiss was HOT.

#172. Posted by: weepict at February 19, 2009 8:20 PM

46. Posted by: unladenswallow

Guam may be an American protectorate, but wasn't Kate's agreement that she not leave CALIFORNIA? Anyone remember the exact terms?

140. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL

Hey, we Canadians don't all use canoes! Some of us have kayaks instead! (easier to keep the beer in don't cha know)

To those who wondered who would fly the plane if it didn't crash and frank was foomed. My guess would be the same one that was flying it when he came out to talk to Jack.

#173. Posted by: surefoot at February 19, 2009 8:28 PM

re: grampa

Gotta agree with the peeps that are suggesting that we will see more of him. If we don't, so much of this episode just seems like they were killing time.

ie, Showing Jack in jungle post 316 twice just seemed like they were filling 45 minutes. Groundhog day?

Jack could have just as easily visited his mom and snagged something...

While watching the episode, I thought gramps was for sure going to provide some kinda link to Christian and Dharma/island. Heck - it even crossed my mind that he could be Jacob!

Only time will tell...

#174. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 8:33 PM

I think Kate killed Aaron as the only way to keep him safe from the island. Why else can’t she tell Jack *ever*? Little does she know that death is no deterrent…

#175. Posted by: solost at February 19, 2009 8:33 PM

Hello everyone, great to have you back Mac! Thanks to Vacc and Cecil for standing in.

We know that Locke will come back to life when he gets to the Island. Jacks Dads dead body became mobil again when it arrived. Now Locke really will be Jacob taking Daddy Shepards place.

I know I have mentioned this before, but i always think of it when rotting corpse are involved. When Jack was a prisoner on the other Island, and they had the funeral. I still think it was strange that the Others buried their people by floating them out to Sea. Is this because they can rise again if they remain on the Island?

I find it amazing the Desmond shows up out of no where, and does not even so much as get a hello from anyone except Ben.

I'm on board with all those that think Kate has had contact with Cassidy and Clementine. Aaron is defiantly with them.

@ Ilovebenjaminlinusxxxxx Jacks breathing does not bother me nearly bad as his lack of question asking does.

Should be interesting to see how the 0 5 react to the Island skips. Bet they thought they were going back to the future.

Thats all for now

#176. Posted by: Dakota at February 19, 2009 8:35 PM

@173. Posted by: surefoot

Kate can't leave Cali for something like 10 years I think. She's clearly breaking the terms of her release.

Unless someone gave her fake ID, it is not realistically likely she could take off like that in a post-911 world, especially from LAX, if it is LAX that they flew out of. She would be flagged. Then again, so would Hugo.

But as others have mentioned, criticizing the realism on a fantasy show is somewhat of an oxymoron. In the words of Chris Rock, it's like playing basketball with a retarded kid and calling him for double dribble - you gotta let some shit slide!

With the bar set high, I guess we expect better....

#177. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 8:44 PM

@176. Posted by: Dakota

I think I'm more bothered by the fact we've only seen one person receive that special type of funeral rite. What was so special about Coleen (was that her name?)? Or are we to believe that other dead Other's have had the same treatment? Did they do this for her husband after Juliet killed him?

#178. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 8:52 PM

re: Hugo guitar case

Perhaps Hurley hacked up Walt and stored him in the guitar case?

But seriously - will we see Walt next week? When he visited Hugo at the institution, he mentioned that he met with Jeremy B. I thought for sure they would bring back Walt to the island, now that hey can explain why he is so much older and bigger. Guess not? Maybe he'll be part of the next generation that will come - ie Aaron, Sun's kid, Desmond's kid...

#179. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 9:00 PM

@ 178 shikotee

I think that this is/was/is? there tradition and it would have been repetitive to show us multiple funerals. Considering someone dies every episode. Maybe Miles will let us know.

#180. Posted by: Dakota at February 19, 2009 9:02 PM

@180. Posted by: Dakota

I dunno.......

Think of how many Others we've seen die in this show. Do you really think Richard and crew have tracked their bodies down, and organized this ritual?

Cauleen circumstances were different, as she died on the operating table. They then had her body, so they gave the traditional send off (link to ancient times and traditions of the 4 toe days?).

My point is - I don't think they did this because of a fear of some zombie resurrection. Otherwise, Ben wouldn't bury Alex...

#181. Posted by: shikotee at February 19, 2009 9:22 PM

@181 shikotee

Agreed


#182. Posted by: Dakota at February 19, 2009 9:29 PM

Okay - this is the first time I've posted without reading all the comments first. I just had to re-watch the episode tonight because last night I pulled a "meg" and got too drunk to remember (sorry meg...). Anyhoo, three quick points that I have to mention:
1) RABBIT! Yes sir! Can't get enough of my bunnies.
2) CINDY'S SCARF! And, was that Cindy too?
3) LAPIDUS! Did I not just note in last week's blog I need more Lapidus?

Life (and LOST) is good... Now off to read your most anticipated posts.

God bless you one and all. And I really think God has something to do with all of this. Okay, take some time and think about it... Again I say - purgatory...

#183. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 19, 2009 9:31 PM

Re: aaron, kate, sun, ji yeon
my first thought was that kate took aaron to claires mum after she laid rubber off the docks, but after some thought, reading, and WINE, i think that kate spent the time between jack's love nest and the flight - with Sun. i think that sun's cooperation/deal (?) with widmore is worth remembering - he could be safeguarding them both (the young-uns) and promising to 'deliver' them to mom(sss) at some point on or off the island.....

#184. Posted by: LostinVT at February 19, 2009 9:37 PM

Dearest DocH - at post #21 you said concerning the magician and that wee little rabbit: "(Sorry, BunnyLover. I was praying for you.)"

Sir, you are too kind and I thank you for your sympathy. The world is a better place with you (and rabbits) in it. Afterall, where would the world's greatest magicians be without our little bunnies? hum? THEY are the true sacrifices.
Again, back to John 3:16. OMG! Is this show about Christ! (how many times have I thought that?) Wait, was it flight 316? Eko's stick. Again, I'm only up to post 21 and I'm sure more people realized that. crap, I hope I didn't just JWTB myself.

#185. Posted by: BunnyLover at February 19, 2009 9:49 PM

→ 20. Posted by: ally
is it just me, or did ben call jack "john" when they were sitting in the church. I watched it a few times and im pretty certain he did when he was talking about the painting.

You know, My uncle was a John but we called him Jack. I wonder if the 3:16 refers to Jack and not Locke?????

Gotta go to bed. Great epi, I thought because I like the mysteries. I was feeling disappointed finally getting answers. Now I am confused again and very happy. Sleepy but happy.

#186. Posted by: berkyo at February 19, 2009 9:51 PM

Oh, and thanks Mac. I needed that review. Still got things whirling in my head. And I ma really going to bed now.

So this show is all about Christian not having his favorite shoes for the funeral....... I thought Dad gave Jack that watch in the mobisode. He could have used that and not introduced us to sad gramps in the old folks home. I like the "shoes" being like the ruby slippers.

#187. Posted by: berkyo at February 19, 2009 10:02 PM

@ myself - → 184. LostinVT

What i meant was that Kate spent the time between the docks and jack's with sun - not after....

gosh i love wine

#188. Posted by: LostinVT at February 19, 2009 10:20 PM

so i read MOSt of the 188 posts, and i can't figure out why no one else has figured out that the short, hispanic-looking 'condolences guy' is Ceasar? and I'll venture to bet that the marshall escorting Sayid is this Ilana character. I mean, they were the only other people in the first-class cabin with the O6. And how do you figure that only the people got sucked out of the plane? didnt a buch of luggage and Ajira crap wash up on the beach?

#189. Posted by: ianmalachi at February 19, 2009 10:45 PM

@173. Posted by: surefoot
The point about Guam is that Kate didn't need a passport, which she probably can't get because of her probation status (and who knows what her real name is anyway). But as for leaving CA - if she doesn't need a passport, all she has to do is pay cash & show her driver's license. She'll have to miss an appt with her P.O. before they know she's gone.

I don't see where Granddad Ray would have anything to do with Christian's antics, but then I've been assuming Christian is just a re-animated corpse, having nothing to do with the living person. Maybe the living Christian did have something to do with the island, and was supposed to be on 815.

I must say, not being a Christian myself (no pun intended), most of the references went over my head, and now that you've all kindly explained them, I don't find them very interesting. I did think that Ben's little Doubting Thomas story was blatant manipulation again. I like my sci-fi without overwhelming religious overtones.

#190. Posted by: hurling at February 19, 2009 10:55 PM

@Shikotee: You are Number Six!

#191. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 19, 2009 11:11 PM

Just finished re-watching....
Three things:

1. I'm pretty sure I saw Eko's brother's Virgin Mary drug statue on Hawking's desk.
________________________

2. When the plane begin to shake, rattle, and roll.....take another listen. The clicks and sounds sound just a bit like Ole' SMOKEY!

________________________

3. On the plane when Ben gives Jack his 'alone time' to read John's letter....he heads up to the front of the plane. We never see if he sits down or not. Could he have been doing a little magic black stick in the 1st class lavatory ala Charlie?

______________________
Thanks, all. LOST is a better experience because of this blog! :)

#192. Posted by: ChiTownTeach at February 19, 2009 11:59 PM

@81, lovelost: "Never dive head first into water you can't see into or haven't checked out personally first."

I was thinking the same thing when Jack jumped, and I'm not even a life guard. I was expecting him to smash his head on the bottom of the puddle he jumped into. :)

@88, vacc: What exactly has the introduction of a popularised science book a couple of decades into the past has to do with your points A-D?

@92, PiecesofArzt: The comic book the Hurley brought was a spanish version of "Y the Last Man". The basic plot of the comic is that a plague wipes out anyone with a Y chromosome except one guy. Sounds like a Dharma-style plan doesn't it?

Not really, have we ever learned that the Dharma initiative was involved in genocide (except as victims)?

#193. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 20, 2009 1:21 AM

@165, shikotee: "My pet peeve - People who reference posting numbers, but not the person. Can you get any more lazier? First of all, post #'s can change. If Mac is forced to remove an inappropriate post, or a double post, #'s will change. Secondly, as a poster, I do not remember the actual number's of all my posts.

If someone writes something to @8, @17, @23, do really expect me to remember that this was my post that you are referencing?"

You could've just asked, you know.

@168, lost2theworld: "I agree that this was a good episode. I have never understood those who complain about all of the "unrealistic" elements of the show."

Lost is definitely a fantasy show (I had a little laugh when one of the posters here complained that there was too much science in the show nowadays... science...? where?), but what bugged me about this episode in particular was not that the events seemed unrealistic, but the reaction of the people to these events was off. It felt like a dream, where you experience a lot of things, but somehow are unable to react to them. All these people showing up in places where you don't expect them (Des at the church, Kate at Jack's, Sayid and Hurley on the plane) and no one bothers to even ask how or what or why...


@185, BunnyLover: "Again, I'm only up to post 21 and I'm sure more people realized that. crap, I hope I didn't just JWTB myself."

Oops...

@189, ianmalachi: Who are Ceasar and Ilana? You don't mean the Roman commander Ceasar, right? Or are these the new cast members? If that's what you're alluding to, then that has been suggested in previous posts I think.


Jack seems to be leaving all reason behind. Not so much turning into a second Locke, man of faith, but turning into a man of stupidity. Not opening the letter, listening to Ben, listening to Hawking... Luckily Desmond stepped up as the voice of reason: you're all being used Losties. Get out! Yay Des, you tell'em.

#194. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 20, 2009 1:49 AM

....(it can also track Margaritaville)...
Now that is funny!

Ok episode, for some reason the expectations level with Lost have been going up for 3-4 years now, so when something significant happens like that scene in the Lamp Post, which for any other series may have been awesome, for Lost I go"...it is ok."

So long....

#195. Posted by: Ilias at February 20, 2009 3:02 AM

@191. Posted by: PiecesofArzt

"Who is Number One?"

- glad to see that the reference was not "lost"!

#196. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 6:13 AM

re: "Y the Last Man" comic

First of all, this was an awesome comic series! I highly recommend it to anyone who has the time. For everyone else - a movie will eventually transpire! 2009 was the original slated time, but my understanding is that they have had problems figuring out how to do the script (ie trilogy, etc).

In any case - Brian K. Vaughan, creator and writer of this series, is also a writer for Lost since season 3. He is credited for the following:

3.17 - "Catch-22"
4.02 - "Confirmed Dead"
4.08 - "Meet Kevin Johnson"
4.09 - "The Shape of Things to Come"
5.04 - "The Little Prince"

#197. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 6:39 AM

@194. Posted by: Plain Simple

re: #'s and names

Did not mean for this to come off as an attack on anyone, and in hindsight, there certainly were better ways to address this issue. Apologies to toute le monde?

Myself - I always just highlight and copy the post # and name from the bottom of the posting, and paste it in after the "@".

re: "unrealistic"

"It felt like a dream, where you experience a lot of things, but somehow are unable to react to them."

Spot on! The ideas are there - it is the human reaction that seems contrived. I think they really dropped the ball on this episode - ie providing important info, with little to zero reaction from the people taking this info in.

The interaction between Desmond and Mrs. Hawking (and people's reaction) was mixed at best. Would anyone really leave like that without demanding more answers?

People seem shocked that Ben was praying - I'm more shocked that Desmond wasn't, considering his seminary background! At the least, he would sign the cross whilst entering a church! Presently, I'm very much agnostic, but I was born and raised a Catholic. On the rare occasions I attend church (wedding, funeral, x-mas), I'm surprised when I unconsciously go through the motions on things. It's ingrained!

#198. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 7:19 AM

What about WALT?

I am confused. Though he wasn't part of the O6 group, he is the only other Lostie that left the island and is alive back in "the real world." Michael reutned and presumably died in the freighter explosion. Penny never actually stepped foot on the island. But Walt... why is he not part of this whole mix?

Wouldn't it make sense that he too should be on the return flight? With the excpetion of Aaron and Desmond, everyone who was on the island is either dead, still there or returned via Ajira.

With the emphasis given to Walt's character as "special" and "important" and all of that, it just seems very odd to me...

#199. Posted by: GatorGal at February 20, 2009 8:37 AM

Re-watch observation...

I think it is worthy to note that Mrs. Hawking tells Jack/them that he needs to bring as many of the same people to recreate the circumstances, to return them to the island. Jack wonders what would happen if he can't get everyone, and she replies, "The result will be unpredictable".

I site this as possible proof for my theory that flight 316 passengers may have been sent to different time-periods of the island! Perhaps Jack needed to be strung up on his booze and his pills, to act as a sub for Charlie and the heroin!

#200. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 8:41 AM

@199. Posted by: GatorGal

I'd gamble that we will learn more about Walt's scenario next week, as the episode will be focused on Jeremy B. We know that Walt met with him before his death.

Perhaps it is precisely a lack of Walt on flight 316 that leads to the "unpredictable" results Hawking alludes to, which may or may not be the time displacement theory I've mentioned...

#201. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 8:45 AM

The man's name is "Christian Shepherd" and the Losties are his sheep. Is that what this is all pointing to?

#202. Posted by: rinz at February 20, 2009 9:03 AM

@196/shikotee - The Prisoner

Must be synchronicity! (TPID #330-#333)

#203. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 9:14 AM

More re-watch notes....

re: Grand-dad

So Ray really wants to get away from the retirement home! "One of these times, I'm actually gonna get away. They won't ever find me either". Ray asks about Kate, and Jack mentions they broke up. Ray jokes that Jack will now have more time to visit him, and Jack replies that he is likely going away somewhere. Ray asks him where, and Jack replies "Somewhere better than here." Touche!

It's clear why some of us have been drawn to think there will be more to Ray in a future story, because the island seems like the perfect solution to his desire of not being found. As always in the Lost world, Ray apparently does not need any concrete answer as to where his grandson might go off to, which is slightly unrealistic.

So what do we learn? Apparently, the males from the Sheppard clan are all malcontents? Think of how Ray, Christian, and Jack have all wanted to run away at various points of their lives. We know Christian lead a double life at some point, as he did father Claire. Jack, who fought so hard to escape the island, only to change face and fight so hard to get back to the island.

#204. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 9:38 AM

@196/Shikotee: YOU are, Number Six!

#205. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 20, 2009 9:39 AM

Here is the path we have been led on, actually coaxed by the writers and producers: first, drama-mystery about plane crash survivors; then sci fi with the strange Dharma hatches; now apparently fantasy. Each type of theme is fine in its own right. The problem is that they don't play well together; it just leads to absurdity.

That said, a few plot point guesses:

1. The terrible thing Kate did with Aaron? She bought the nanny and Aaron plane tickets to Guam. She was not hiding from Jack in the airport terminal, but from Aaron and the nanny.
2. Ben was beat up by Sayid, in a con-arrest on the ruse of an international arrest warrant for one of his assassinations, perhaps the Economist.
3. Several weeks ago trying to get a grasp on how the island would time skip, I theorized that the island was the bob at the end of a cosmic clock pendulum. Now, Hawkings says it has always been moving like the pockets of EM energy found on the planet. She must be referring to the 10 vortices (which include the Burmuda and Devil's Triangles) The island would then be oscillating from vortex to vortex approx every 70 hours, traveling "through" the center of the earth, and completing its cycle in 30 days. (Yikes, this matches up with pagan and Egyptian mythology on the lunar cycle and the underworld.)

#206. Posted by: welh at February 20, 2009 10:06 AM

After reading the review and all the comments. No one picked up on the fact that Ray (Granddad) referred to Kate as Freckles. Isn't that Sawyers nickname for her......

#207. Posted by: Annarot28 at February 20, 2009 10:21 AM

After reading the review and all the comments. No one picked up on the fact that Ray (Granddad) referred to Kate as Freckles. Isn't that Sawyers nickname for her......
207. Posted by: Annarot28

Actually he asked about the girl WITH freckles.

#208. Posted by: davidrh at February 20, 2009 10:36 AM

@203. Posted by: ealgumby

LoL! That is so funny!

Just goes to show you that coincidences really do happen outside of the Lost world! Had not read your posting that you reference, so what are the odds that I would make a Prisoner reference as well?

For those unawares (I believe I've brought this up last year), you should really check out "The Prisoner". Awesome series! A remake is on its way, with Magneto/Gandolf playing the role of #2. I imagine the old series will be re-released, as it will no doubt create a curiosity about the old series. Sadly, the series star and co-creator, Patrick McGoohan, passed away this year.

Anyhoots - It is also well known that the writers of Lost were huge fans of the Prisoner, and various similarities exist. Most notable of course, as ealgumby mentioned, is that both series have a security system. Smokey for Lost, and Rover for The Prisoner.

Some Prisoner trivia for you here...

Originally, Rover was conceived to be a remote controlled robotic device, but during production, they encountered various problems with it, and had to find a sub. As a quick solution, they opted to use weather balloons! Essentially, Rover prevented "Prisoners" from leaving "the Village", and was controlled by the mysterious people who were running the Village. Sound somewhat familiar?

****** Prisoner Spoilers ahead *******

One of the brilliant things about the Prisoner is that so many aspects of the show are allegorical. When the series came to a close, viewers were really banking on having a nice wrap-up, hoping to find out who was behind it all, ie - who was #1. Patrick McGoohan was not of such a mindset. The last episode is one of the most bizarre in the series, where arguably there were more questions than answers. Fans of the time were pissed, and Patrick McGoohan actually had to go into hiding after it aired!

Patrick McGoohan stated: "The reason that it was confusing, and that [the viewers] were disappointed, I think, was that they expected the ending to be similar to a 'Bond' thing, with this mystery man, the head man or whatever they call him in Bond; and of course it wasn't about that at all. It was about the most evil human "being", human "essence"; and that is ourselves, because within each of us, that is the most dangerous thing on Earth, is what is within us. And so therefore that's what I made No. 1: One's 'self', an image of himself that he was trying to beat."

***** End Prisoner Spoilers *****

In any case - ealgumby main thought was
"what if we never find out exactly what Smokey is, just as it was never revealed exactly what Rover was in The Prisoner?"

I suspect that we will get some kind of gobbley-gook answer at the least. I think they'll let us know what he is meant to do, and what controls (if any) "the others" have over him/it. How far they go with this will depend on far they go in explaining what this show is all about.

Who knows? - maybe TPTB will have to go into hiding once the show comes to a close, should they pursue an allegorical explanation!

Be seeing you!

#209. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 10:37 AM

BTW: On the question of whether Ben called Jack "John" in the church:

I listened to the scene on a high rez speaker system.

He did say "Jack", however, it came out as "Jock". My guess is, the actor ALMOST said the wrong name and corrected in mid word. Close enough not to have to reshoot the scene.

#210. Posted by: davidrh at February 20, 2009 10:39 AM

It just kills me that nobody even bothered to ask Ben what happened to his face! I agree that this and many other explanations will be slowly revealed as we progress through this modern Twilight Zone known as Lost.

#211. Posted by: Maxlife at February 20, 2009 10:52 AM

@200/shikotee: Re recreating the circumstances of the first trip

I have no idea whence this concept sprang, but I didn't like it upon first viewing, and I like it even less in afterthought ...

If finding/predicting the "event window" is the key to returning, exactly how does street theater get invoked in this equation? Why is there any need to "recreate as best you can the circumstances that brought you there in the first place" ... huh? Uh, why not just enter the event window? And this whole idea of "proxies" ... ugh! As hokey as the "recreate the circumstances" thing is, assigning passengers as proxies for others in the original flight is downright ludicrous. Seems the writers really got lazy and threw in the towel with this ... “Hmm, how do we justify Locke being on the plane? [snap] I got it! He’s taking Christian’s place from the original flight!” ... rolling already glazed-over eyes. Of course, establishing the Locke-as-proxy precedent opened a whole can of worms ... if Locke is a proxy, who else might be (or could/should be)? If the TPTB didn’t anticipate viewers jumping on that bandwagon, they should’ve. Anyway, Hawking said "as many of the same people" needed to be on the flight, not people pretending to be the same people ... with the exception of Locke as proxy for Christian [uh, well duh!]. Likewise, I see no reason why Kate is supposedly pregnant, simply so she can be Claire's "proxy." I will have a very hard time if that's the direction they choose to go with all of this nonsense.

At any rate, I see this epi as somewhat of an acknowledgement by the writing staff that they have painted themselves into a corner, and are trying to weasel out of it by invoking silliness. Hawking begins by saying "I apologize if this is confusing, but ..." and follows up a while later with "Oh, stop thinking how ridiculous it is" ... not to mention her ridiculous demeanor, like some horrid kindergarten teacher. Hmm ... I took this to mean "we said we'd back everything up with 'science,' but now we can't, so here comes the waving of the hands!" Very slowly now, so the audience can follow ... BAM ... Abracadabra!

And what do you know? They even poke fun at themselves (us?) by including the otherwise completely unnecessary magic show at the retirement home ... complete with obligatory "proxy" rabbit. Sheesh ... not even close to amusing D&C ... pathetic? Now we're talking! What did Des say about the O6 being used? Hmm ... I felt like that could just as easily have been directed toward the home viewers!

If they end up having only "selected" passengers FOOM out of a left-intact plane, and/or people popping up in different time frames on the island ... that would simply be too stupid to let pass ... even for a fantasy/sci fi show! The audience needs to be allowed some dignity, IMO.

#212. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 11:25 AM

@212. Posted by: ealgumby

LoL!

They say that art imitates life, but I think it is so funny how in this case, life imitates art!

For this scene, ealgumby will play the role of Jack, and I, shikotee, will play the role of Locke. It will be a classic battle of man of science VS man of faith.

ealgumby - You need to "believe"!

But seriously - with all we have seen, were you really banking for a scientific explanation? Do we have any geologists here that can explain the ramifications of a moving island? At best, they can toss in the odd prevalent bone or two, but they will never be able to explain it all scientifically because we are dealing with fantasy!

re: recreating circumstances

Our approach to this might be far too literal. The island might not require specific criteria for the proxies (ie guitar for Charlie, shoes for Christian) - I think it is more likely about faith. You need to bring these things to show that you "believe" in the island, in order to gain entrance a 2nd time. No matter how hard you try, you can't quantify a leap of faith!

#213. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 12:01 PM

@212. Posted by: ealgumby

Thank you, ealgumby, I've been angry for 2 days & didn't think anyone else agreed.

#214. Posted by: hurling at February 20, 2009 12:13 PM

@213/shikotee: man of science VS man of faith

Really, I do NOT expect everything to be explained ... I just wish they had come up with a better way of "wrapping up the science," as I see it, after apparently trying really hard, and failing.

Good science fiction is first and foremost good FICTION in general, and as such, relies heavily on character development/interplay. Frankly, the "science" in sci fi is typically BS, because well, it's not science fact, is it? Nonetheless, any references to "true" science should be accurate, and any sci fi mythology should at the very least be self-consistent, and at best, plausible (or even just semi-plausible).

So here's my beef ... Lost started out VERY character driven, with the whole dedicated epis to backstory and all. What little explicit "science" there was, always at the very least tap-danced around the edges of fact/plausibility. IMO, that was a good recipe for a decent sci fi show; i.e. a good drama aside from the science, with just enough believable fantasy invoked to make it interesting.

What has happened? For quite a while now, it seems the character interplay has taken a back seat to the convoluted attempts at explaining the science (which, of course, were doomed from the start, as it's all make believe in the end!). Now we are left with bad fiction, AND bad science!

If somehow, miraculously, TPTB could've pulled off "explaining" the science in a more consistent fashion (and come on now ... the "science" in Lost abandoned self-consistency a long time ago! What ever happened to the importance of the course to the island? Etc., etc. etc...), then I'd grant them more slack with easing on the typical elements of good fiction (i.e., moving the characters along in meaningful fashion). That's not what happened though ... everything just seems weak across the board lately ... if the show had begun like this, I wouldn't even be writing on this blog right now, cause I wouldn't have kept watching.

I mentioned the Rover/Smokey correlation for a reason I never explicitly mentioned ... I did not mind at ALL that Rover wasn't explained in The Prisoner. It was not necessary to the overall plot, and certainly did not detract from the experience of the show. In fact, trying (and probably failing miserably ... hmm) to explain Rover would've probably lowered my regard for the show at large.

Really, my ONLY hope now is that the 316 epi marks the end of the futile efforts to explain the science, and they get back to writing solid fiction. That is, I hope they get back to what made the show great in the first place ... the characters!

#215. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 12:26 PM

→ 211. Posted by: Maxlife
Yeah, or ask Mrs. Hawking some more questions, at least what would have happened had Desmond been bonked by the pendulum.

Here's the dialogue I wanted to hear:

Jack: Ben, why's your face all messed up?
Ben: None of your business, Jack.
Jack: What about the others on the flight?
Ben: Who cares?!
Jack: That's cold, dude.
Ben: Jughead.
Jack: Lockehead.
Ben: There's no place like home.
~~FOOM~~

#216. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 20, 2009 12:32 PM

@215. Posted by: ealgumby

Fair enough - good points.

I think we can all agree that Lost is like a roller coaster ride, and that we've all been at points where we are completely in love, and at other times where we wonder if we are wasting our time.

So long as the show doesn't pull a "Heroes", I'm still in.

(sigh)

Damn you Heroes!

Your first season was awesome (excluding the final episode), but downhill from there on! I kept faith, hoping things would change/pick-up. I finally watched the first episode of 2009, found it to be doggy doo-doo, and will likely no longer watch it at all.

I love the superhero genre (obvious comic collector as a kid), but I just can't justify watching a show whose characters are so super duper crappola. I don't know much about how the production is run, but I can't help but suspect that much could be due to network pressures to retain certain characters.

Frankly, every time I see the cheerleader, I want to barf. Her storyline was great in S1, but it almost seems like they are desperately trying to keep her involved due to her initial popularity. Putting her on the offensive when she has zero offensive capabilities is just plain stupid.

Anyways - Could rant on this for an eternity, so I better stop here.

Best treat so far - a few weeks ago, I finally checked out BSG. I did this because I knew it was coming to and end this year, because I generally do not like following shows in progress. I hate commercials, and I hate waiting!

Anyone here know of a good blog/community for BSG?

#217. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 12:57 PM

@211. Posted by Maxlife: It just kills me that nobody even bothered to ask Ben what happened to his face!

Given their history with Ben and the fact that they (except Hurley) all knew he was yanking their chains to get them back to the island, I'm not surprised they don't want to speak with him. I wouldn't.

Someone way back (couldn't find the number) mentioned Jin and Daniel working for Dharma. But wouldn't it be more difficult to slip onto a work detail? Doesn't Dharma know exactly who they've hired, seeing as they have to go to some lengths to get people on the island? I think they'd take Jin and Daniel to be Hostiles.

And sorry, Shikotee, I've only posted #s as refs, too. I'm from a math family and so definitely remember mine, assumed the same of everyone. No longer!

Bunnylover, I have to say that wabbit in the magic show had the largest, most staring eye, ever. BTW have you ever seen Wallace and Grommit and the WereRabbit? You'd like it.

#218. Posted by: freckles at February 20, 2009 1:03 PM

@
119. Posted by: Kristi at February 19, 2009 3:40 PM


"I don’t think that’s obvious yet. The frosties did time jump and see an Ajira jet crashed on the beach. It is unlikely to be another Ajira jet entirely (other than 316, I mean). I think the plane crashed, but for some reason the O5 were foomed first."

Help me, please....I don't remember seeing wreckage of an Ajira passenger jet...where on the beach was it located?

Len

#219. Posted by: Len at February 20, 2009 1:09 PM

@ 138 Posted by: vacc

"Yet Another Unanswered Question:

Will Sun's settlement from Ajira Airlines enable her to have a controlling interest in BOTH Paik AND Widmore Companies? "

Sun is suing Ajira Airlines? ? ? ? For what? ? ?

Len

#220. Posted by: Len at February 20, 2009 1:12 PM

@220: Len -> Sun is suing Ajira Airlines? ? ? ? For what? ?

No, my comment was meant as a joking reference to numerous posts last year expressing skepticism that Oceanic paid Sun enough $$ that she could buy a controlling interest in Paik.

I'm not even convinced that the plane crashed - but I'm pretty sure it never made it to Guam. Would be cool if it did - being landed safely by the co-pilot after the pilot and four of the legendary Oceanic 6 vanished into thin air.. Sounds like the opening sequence for any episode of Fringe.

#221. Posted by: vacc at February 20, 2009 1:39 PM

@215 ealgumby
From the Entertainment weekly article it sounded like they were trying to get all of this weirdness and convoluted plot out of the way this season and return to more character driven season one style eps with flashbacks and flashforwards for the final season. So it sounds like next season might be more to your taste if you can make it through this one.

****SPOILER****
The newest Entertainment Weekly with the Watchmen on the cover had a short blurb saying that in addition to already dead Charlotte, another "major-ish" character would bite the dust by the end of the season.
Not sure what constitutes a "major-ish" character though.
****END OF SPOILER****


@216 Scooby-Dude
LOL

and shikotee:
I know I've been guilty of referencing just numbers before. Never really thought about it but you have a good point. I'll try to keep it in mind for the future. Or the past or present...

#222. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 20, 2009 1:43 PM

@ 62 - Posted by: vacc
"If it really is the 70's will the Swan Station be adorned like Eric Foreman's basement in That 70's show?"

Ooh! Think of how buggy Ben's eyes would get with Red's foot up his a@@. :)

@ 201 - Posted by: shikotee
"Perhaps it is precisely a lack of Walt on flight 316..."

I've been thinking that we don't really know who might be aboard the plane in the coach section. Could Walt be back there? Aaron?

In general I gotta agree with ealgumby about this side trip into fantasy land. In particular the part about having to recreate the original scenario as much as possible. And Locke with Dad Shepherd's shoes? That's almost sounding like voodoo to me. Yes, I know it's science fiction so I realize some explanations might be a little bit out there. But in the end it does follow the laws of whatever universe you're living in. But Locke as a proxy for Shepherd? I just don't see it.

The explanation for that is either going to have to be pretty good OR maybe we'll find out that Ben & Hawking are lying because they want them back for their own purposes.

#223. Posted by: Brian at February 20, 2009 2:02 PM

@lots of numbers and names:

I also had a problem with the whole "recreating the conditions" scenario.

So what I'm going to do is chalk everything up to being one big ploy by Christian Sheppard - to get his shoes back!!

(And by everything, I mean ALL that's happened since Locke talked to Christian in the cabin )

#224. Posted by: vacc at February 20, 2009 2:02 PM

@221/vacc: "Sounds like the opening sequence for any episode of Fringe."

And Fringe is wretched B-movie derived crapola, IMO ... hence my hoping they don't go that way on Lost ... just crash the damned plane already!

#225. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 2:04 PM

Did anyone else notice how the scene where Jack meets up with Hurley and Kate on the island was slightly different the second time than it was the first time.

The first time, when Kate woke up, she goes "Are we..." and Jack says "Yes, we're back." Didn't happen the second time around - right?? Think it means something or just an accident?

#226. Posted by: Christin at February 20, 2009 2:07 PM

another acronym BWAP (Ben Went After Penny)


@160 lovelost... Thanks for the comments on my Frank theory

@218 freckles...could the WereRabbit be Jacob?
Took my kids to see that Wallace and Gromit movie (at my wife's insistence...I think she was the only one who really wanted to see it)...my daughter (the older of my two) had an embarrassing meltdown. She said she was scared. I think she just didn't want to see the movie. So I took her out of the theater. She had the gall to ask me if she could get candy or an ice cream...I said 'Nope. We're just going to sit here and wait until the movie is out.' And we sat...and sat... She hasn't behaved like that in a movie since then.

Regarding Cesar...maybe he is a dentist like Bernard

I have mentioned the Stephen King story the Langoliers before (or maybe just thought about it out loud) where the passengers of a flight get FOOMed leaving only the ones who were asleep at the time still alive as their sleeping brains were in a state that enabled them to survive the freakish shift they went through.

I think that's how Jin had survived without nosebleeds so far. His unconsciousness protected him from the mental shock.

I'm with the camp that believes Jacob is really Locke. (Though it could also be Kris Kristofferson)

I think that the whole idea of the proxies is bunk -- just another manipulation (though I am undecided yet if it's for the characters or for the viewing audience) -- a means for the characters to think they need these things in order for them to get back to the island.

One thing that bugs me in particular:
If Widmore knows where Hawking is and presumably knows what she is doing there, why can't he utilize that knowledge of the windows to get back to the island he so desperately wants to get back under his control?

#227. Posted by: Gumbo at February 20, 2009 2:14 PM

More observations:

re: Y the Last Man


The issue that Hugo is reading is #15.
The series ran up until #60.
Just re-read it to see if there were any links....


***********Y the Last Man Spoilers*****

This issue is the conclusion of "One Small Step".

As mentioned, the premise of this series is that every single male of all species on the planet dies, except one - Yorick (two, if you count Ampersound, his pet).

At this portion of the series, they discover that there is an astronaut crew in space that consists of 2 males, and one female. They've been up there a long time, and need to return to Earth. When the capsule crashes, only the female - Dr. Weber, makes it out before the capsule blows up.

While she is recovering in the hospital, she is asked why the men didn't leave first (they were aware of the plague, and how important they were for the survival of the human race). Dr. Webb explained that she screamed the same thing, but that they pushed her forward saying "Women and children first".

Dr. Webb was pregnant, and did not know who the father was. The three had been in space for a year, and did not think they would survive. She exclaimed that she loved both men.


****End of Y the Last Man Spoilers*****

Hmmmmmmmmmm....
Sound like anyone we know?
Methinks the Kate preggers storyline has some merit!


re: Ulysses

Anyone here read it? Any good links?
I've never read it. Meant to years ago, but found it hard to follow due to the language. Obviously, it is a modern version of Homer's "Odyssey", which I have read.

#228. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 2:16 PM

@213 shikotee
I like your idea about it not really mattering what item you brought or needing to proxy for someone. It seems like a way to make the characters go out of their way to prove their belief--to make their leap of faith.

#229. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 20, 2009 2:27 PM

Speaking of Kate waking up...

Toward the beginning of the ep, when Jack finds Kate in his bedroom, he went in there because he heard a clumpy bumpy sort of noise. But when he got there Kate was sleeping in the middle of his bed, nowhere near anything that might've made the noise. So what/who did?

Was she still wearing her shoes? Maybe they fell off and hit the floor?

Maybe Christian stole her pumps cuz he's tired of white sneakers AND they make his a$$ look good?

Just bothered me is all.

BTW ealgumby...I am in complete agreement with you on all points. I just wasn't able to phrase it as nicely.

#230. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 20, 2009 2:47 PM

@165 shikotee ranted:

>"I am not a number, I am a free man!"

We want information,

#231. Posted by: No. 2 at February 20, 2009 2:53 PM

@227 Gumbo One thing that bugs me in particular.

Most of the people that left the island with Charles Widmore(in the 50's?) are probably dead and cremated.

#232. Posted by: mozart is not deaf. at February 20, 2009 2:53 PM

I, too wondered about the clumpy/bumpy noises. My first thought was "Did she sneak in and now she is pretending to be asleep?"

#233. Posted by: Christin at February 20, 2009 2:54 PM

@193 Plain Simple asked:

>Not really, have we ever learned that the Dharma initiative was involved in genocide (except as victims)?

In The Lost Experience, we learned precielsly that. Dharma was purposly infecting native villages in Africa with a plague that killed 80-90% of them and studying the bodies in hopes of learning something to help them alter some of the terms of the Valenzetti equation, thus preventing or postponing mankind's extinction. They viewed this as a form of triage - taking some lives to save even more.

#234. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 20, 2009 3:06 PM

@218. Posted by: freckles
re: Dharma, Daniel and Jin

It will be interesting to see how the Dharma integration pans out. With Daniel's appearance, the impression certainly was that he had sneaked into the Orchid, but that does not mean this will be the case for everyone. It certainly implies that at some point, the time traveling island folk got stuck in Dharma time for an extended period of time...

@223. Posted by: Brian
re: Walt

True - Walt could be a coach passenger on the flight. I doubt this would be the case with Aaron. Kate has been very protective of him, so whatever she did, it was under the belief that it was to protect him.

@224. Posted by: vacc
re: Sheppard's Shoes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jack fly down to Australia specifically to pick-up his dad's body? Why would he bring old tennis shoes with him. Strange.

@227. Posted by: Gumbo
re: Widmore

Hawking and Widmore could very well be in Kahoots. From what we know about him, he's trying to find the island, but not necessarily return to it, right? We still don't know how Widmore was banished, and he may have good reason for not actually wanting to return.

#235. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 3:25 PM

@230. Posted by: ransomjackson
re: Kate in bed

Just re-watched, and my impression is that she was never sleeping. Her eyes are red, so she has been lying there crying, obviously missing Aaron, and possibly second guessing whatever decision she made. Her arm is stretched out towards the edge of the bed.

My detective like theory - she dropped an empty bottle, possibly on purpose so that Jack would enter. When Jack enters his apartment, he makes quite some noise looking for booze in his cupboards. He ends up finding a bottle in the mini fridge.

If Kate is not sleeping, she would obviously have heard him. Instead of calling him, she makes a noise, and makes him come to her.

Why a bottle?

I would assume Jack knows where he keeps his booze at his own place. He searches the first spot where he remembers he has a bottle, but it is not there because Kate has taken it.

re: Kate on plane

Definitely a hint here that she might still be yearning for Sawyer! Keep in mind, how they broke up (Sawyer secret, likely involving Sawyers kid + mom). After the plane takes off, Jack sits beside Kate and they talk:

Jack - "It's pretty crazy, huh? "
Kate - "Which part?"
Jack - "Hurley, Sayid, being on the same plane. How did they end up here?"
Kate - "They bought a ticket"
Jack - "You don't think it means something, that somehow, we're all back together?"
Kate - "We're on the same plane Jack. It doesn't make us together."

The conversation is stopped by the voice of Lapidus.

Kate is pretty cold towards Jack, especially with that last line. While they may have had some jiggy-jiggy, it's almost like Kate is trying to make it clear that they are not back together as a couple. My guess is that Kate's choosing to go back definitely had something to do with Sawyer.

Whew! Talk about a posting barrage by me today! Yikes!

#236. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 3:54 PM

@227. Posted by: Gumbo: Could the WereRabbit be Jacob?

LOL! No icecream, that's great. The WereRabbit's giant feet definitely won't fit into Daddy Shepherd's shoes.


@235. Posted by: shikotee: Yes, it does seem to me that they have to be sneaking onto the teams. But where are the rest of the Frosties?

If, as so many people want to believe, Miles is Dr. Chang's baby, will he meet his younger self? Is this a Dharma time period before Ben arrives, solving the problem of him meeting himself? Did Charlotte's body FOOM, too?

Speaking of our shriekey redhead, I wonder, is Charlotte going to be a Charle/Boone/AnaLucia style ghost? If she is, I'd guess it'll be Daniel she appears to. I wonder how it works when people die on the island, in an unknown past.

#237. Posted by: freckles at February 20, 2009 4:00 PM

@212 ealgumby ranted:

>And what do you know? They even poke fun at themselves (us?) by including the otherwise completely unnecessary magic show at the retirement home ... complete with obligatory "proxy" rabbit. Sheesh ... not even close to amusing D&C ...

Well I was amused. [g]

Maybe the street theater is because the island is - just as John Locke insisted all along - a conscious entity and nobody, not Hawking (mother or son), Widmore, even Linus, knows exactly why it chooses some and not others, so the best they can do is recreate as good a simulation as possible of people it *already* has chosen - the exact same people where possible, reasonable proxies where not.

Then place them in reasonable proximity to somewhere they think the island will be, and hope.

#238. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 20, 2009 4:07 PM

@231. Posted by: No. 2
re: "The Prisoner" Intro

Man, I love that intro! For the confused....

The following dialogue runs over the opening titles of most episodes. The questioner is Number Six and the respondent is Number Two, the Village chairperson, a role occupied by a different man or woman in almost every episode (as indicated by the reference to the "new Number Two"):

#6: "Where am I?"

#2: "In the Village."

#6: "What do you want?"

#2: "Information."

#6: "Whose side are you on?"

#2: "That would be telling…. We want information. Information! INFORMATION!"

#6: "You won't get it."

#2: "By hook or by crook, we will."

#6: "Who are you?"

#2: "The new Number Two."

#6: "Who is Number One?"

#2: "You are Number Six."

#6: "I am not a number — I am a free man!"

#239. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 4:08 PM

@ 236 shikotee...

Thanks for looking into it.

Filling in some gaps, one could assume (I know I know) that Kate stole Jackie-boy's bottle for 2 reasons:

1. She was distraught over chopping up Turniphead into little bits and eating him on her salad, and

B. She knew that when Jack came home the first thing he'd do is grab his bottle of booze and pacify himself.

So one could theorize that she drank the booze and dropped the bottle off the side of the bed and that's what Jack heard.

#240. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 20, 2009 4:11 PM

@219 Len posted:

>Help me, please....I don't remember seeing wreckage of an Ajira passenger jet...where on the beach was it located?

Thank you, Len. I thought it was just me.

#241. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 20, 2009 4:13 PM

@227 Gumbo prognosticated:

>I'm with the camp that believes Jacob is really Locke. (Though it could also be Kris Kristofferson)

I still say Michael Gross. (8-p

o~~~~~~

btw, Survivor review's up, for anybody interested. And Survivor is guaranteed 100% scientifically consistent. Maybe not psychologically, but scientifically.

#242. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 20, 2009 4:22 PM

@237. Posted by: freckles

"Is this a Dharma time period before Ben arrives, solving the problem of him meeting himself?"

We can all agree that Ben is a very smart cookie. I've always suspected that he must have left the island at some point for educational purposes (college). My money is on Ben arriving during a time-line where he is not on island. This might be before his arrival as a child, while he is away educating himself, or maybe he arrives in normal time.

Ben was not a member of flight #815, so he might be what causes the "unexpected results" that Hawking mentioned...


"Did Charlotte's body FOOM, too?"

Excellent question! Jin's body moved through time while he was unconscious (this was mentioned during the 2nd showing with the captions). Does this still happen when you are dead?

#243. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 4:25 PM

good place to keep track of lost: http://www.spotep.com/#serieid=lost

#244. Posted by: hurley k at February 20, 2009 4:26 PM

I have to bring up the Passports that Sayid found in Ben's secrete room. As with all of LOST, we can only assume things. So, I assume that Ben is able to get off the island anytime he wants - and go anywhere he wants. He's done this for years after he gassed the Dharma group. There are ways onto the island when it's not moving - like Miles, Daniel & Charlotte. Also, the food drop or the guy who parachuted onto the island.

LOST revolves around Ben more than any other person - as of right now.

#245. Posted by: dk at February 20, 2009 4:26 PM

@240. Posted by: ransomjackson

Just want to be clear - the bottle is pure speculation! We do not see it, ever!

When Jack walks in, she is lying on the bed, on her side, with one arm stretched out towards the edge of the bed. All other parts of her body (feet) are well on the bed. While it is dark, her eyes appear to be open when Jack walks in. It's like she is lying there, in shock.

She's obviously depressed, and she did not head over there to talk about it. She used him for sex to try to clear her mind, which as we know, she has done before.

#246. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 4:34 PM

@224/vacc: "So what I'm going to do is chalk everything up to being one big ploy by Christian Sheppard - to get his shoes back!!"

Now THAT was funny! If the writers want to inject some humor, I wouldn't mind at all a quirky side story that ended up like that ... really.

@227/Gumbo: "If Widmore knows where Hawking is and presumably knows what she is doing there, why can't he utilize that knowledge of the windows to get back to the island he so desperately wants to get back under his control?"

Yes! Someone mentioned this way earlier in this thread, but I forgot to respond ... sure seems off. Unless ... Hawking has a ring of magic Jacob ashes surrounding the Lamp Post to keep Widmore out! ;)

@228/shikotee: “Methinks the Kate preggers storyline has some merit!”

So ... if Kate is pregnant, ostensibly so she can proxy for Claire ... why have none of the remaining O6 been injured and wheel-chair bound, to proxy for Locke? Hmm ... perhaps she’s covering her bases, and threw Aaron out a window so she can also proxy for Cooper. ;)

@239/shikotee
#6: "Who is Number One?"
#2: "You are Number Six."

Or, as @205/ PiecesofArzt alternatively replied: YOU are, Number Six!

#247. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 4:37 PM

@245. Posted by: dk
re: food drop

My feeling is that the food drop was taking place during the functional timeline of the Dharma Initiative. When it was dropped, a FOOM somehow caused it to be delivered into the future. I'm sure we'll see some episode where Dharma folk from the past are salty about not getting their regular food drop off!

#248. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 4:41 PM

I bet that Claire (or someone) visited Kate again and told her that she had to get pregnant.... I don't think Kate was using Jack for sex... I think she was using him for his swimmers. She knew exactly what she was doing... she traded Aaron for the spawn of Jack.

#249. Posted by: Skipper at February 20, 2009 4:43 PM

This goes out to you men (and women) of science...

http://tinyurl.com/bfpb59

#250. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 5:01 PM

@247. Posted by: ealgumby
re: Kate the preggo blimp

I'm not suggesting that she needed to be preggo to make it to the isle a-la Claire proxy. I am saying that the idea has merit via the theme in that particular comic book that was used in that episode. Also, if the rest of the story requires a preggo Kate, it would make sense that it happened before returning to the isle, based on what we know happens to women that get preggie on the island.

I can understand why some people are upset by this proxy idea. Myself, I think it is a work in progress. The show has always been about bizarre co-winky-dinks. They might better explain why this is at a later date...

#251. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 5:15 PM

@219: Len, @241: Cecil Rose

I don't know where this came from and I've tried to point it out at least once already - I don't ever recall seeing wreckage from the Ajira flight this season. There was wreckage from Danielle Rousseau's ship and there was the debris leftover from the Losties abandoned camp (one could postulate, myself included, that it wasn't actually the Losties' camp but we were led to believe it was) but nowhere this season have they shown us wreckage from an Ajira flight. We saw a canoe and a water bottle, nothing more.

Holy cow, I can't get back to read this blog for one full day and there's 107 more posts to sift through?!?! Sheesh that took a long time to cover!

@236: shikotee - Regarding the fuller posting of the conversation between Jack and Kate including:

Jack - "You don't think it means something, that somehow, we're all back together?"
Kate - "We're on the same plane Jack. It doesn't make us together."

I think that give a much better perspective that most people have been putting forth about Kate's statement in that it doesn't mean she isn't with Jack as most have been implying but rather that the six of them on that flight aren't necessarily all together as a group. Putting her quote into context of the preceding conversation definitely changes the dynamics and leave open the possibility that she wasn't referring to the two of them at all in making that statement.

@243: shikotee - I think only living people move with time. Once they die they appear to be left behind wherever they died. I've seen no anecdotal instances to contradict that perception.

For those that have been postulating that Kate killed Aaron, seriously what drugs have you been taking? She loved and protected that boy for the last three years. It was obvious to me at least that the situation was that it killed her enough in giving him up (whomever she gave him up to) that she didn't want to have to bring forth those memories ever again and so demanded that Jack never mention him again because of the anguish it would cause her.

I haven't mentioned it yet but it appears that John will in fact come back to life exactly as I had postulated in a previous week. That "missing pieces" clip I mentioned apparently was a direct clue as I thought. What other clip from the "missing pieces" set will turn out to hold other "ah-ha!" moments?

It's been mentioned over and over, and there's proponents on both sides, but to me this was a very poor episode, as Lost episodes go. Jump the shark poor? No. Needs some pretty darn good flashbacks in some coming episode(s) to fill in reason(s) why everyone and everything went about so casually and unquestioningly? Absolutely.

I agree that the magician in the episode was a nod to the bunny from the Orchid video. Is it a significant scene for future referral? Not sure. Perhaps there's some easter eggs in the audience.

Everyone delving deeply into the religious ramifications of this episode, I just hope this show doesn't turn in a bible study group. I'm not interested and would probably be offended at having to know some religious text and it's nuances in order to "get" things on this show. Things like the Lion Witch and Wardrobe references are cute and interesting. They add a layer of complexity to the show that leaves you with so much more to find out and talk about in the discussion groups after the show has aired without taking anything away from your understanding and enjoyment of the episode if you never find out about them. But my feeling is please don't "go there" with the religious stuff. It's a detractive inclusion IMHO.

Regarding Jack's grandfather, I think he'll end up being just and incidental character used to provide the shoes. I await eating crow on this but I just don't get the feeling there was much substance to his being in the episode or in the course of the future of the show outside of that role.

@81, lovelost professed: "Never dive head first into water you can't see into or haven't checked out personally first."

@193, Plain Simple agreed: "I was thinking the same thing when Jack jumped, and I'm not even a life guard. I was expecting him to smash his head on the bottom of the puddle he jumped into. :)"

I didn't think twice about him jumping into the water. He'd been on the island for (if I remember correctly) 108 days. He and others had passed by and/or swum in that waterfall on numerous occasions. You'd have to think it was as familiar to him as anything else on the island by the time they FOOMed back and he dove in to save Hurley.

Ok, 'nuf said for now. I'm goin' home.

#252. Posted by: LostedIt at February 20, 2009 5:23 PM

Good episode overall, I thought. It’s seems more and more, that it’s the structure of the storytelling that outshines the story itself. But I’m enjoying every second of it. Thanks to most other posters for some great insights and theories.

Just some random rambling and guessing about Jacob here, read at own risk of time waisting.

Could it be that Jacob has a multiple personality disorder? I believe he was the captain of the BR, and given his name probably a (devoted) Christian. Whatever happened to him and what he has become on that Island, I think he hates the world now. He thinks it is doomed to destroy itself. Maybe he has even seen the future and knows it to be true. Tried in vain to change it. He believes he is God (I don’t blame him, given his powers/knowledge of space and time) and is trying to recreate the coming of the savior, his son, to rescue a few handpicked members of mankind.

Now I don’t think Grampa Shepherd will become a major major character, but I’m thinking we will find out that he has some knowledge about Christian’s ties to the Island. Jacob and Christian could be two sides to the same coin, light and dark, Jeckyll and Hyde. The appearance of Christian Shepherd could be a (temporary) chosen representation of Jacob’s dark side, perhaps to be joined by Locke as a rep of his light side. Something like their soul and body merge with him.

Maybe Jacob is possessed by an ancient (evil) spirit, or has formed an alliance or symbiotic relationship with it. That it changed him, became a part of him and messed him up big time. Maybe the spirit/creature’s true form is Smokey. I’m thinking, maybe the smoke is just what our eyes tell us we’re seeing, because our minds can’t comprehend it’s true form. (like in Stephen King’s It, when Pennywise the Clown says something similar about himself). The spirit/creature could have been there forever, maybe having wiped out the four toed folks as well.

Meanwhile, Alpert, Jacob’s right hand man, took the responsibility of becoming practical leader of the people when Jacob went insane. But he and the others had no choice but to follow Jacob’s rules and orders. He is always watching, and he (his dark side) can be vengeful. His light and dark side are always in conflict with each other, maybe even sabotaging each other at times. Playing games.

#253. Posted by: Molemangler at February 20, 2009 5:34 PM

@252 LostedIt said:

>@81, lovelost professed: "Never dive head first into water you can't see into or haven't checked out personally first."

Actually, that was me speaking, talking *to* lovelost.

>I didn't think twice about him jumping into the water. He'd been on the island for (if I remember correctly) 108 days. He and others had passed by and/or swum in that waterfall on numerous occasions. You'd have to think it was as familiar to him as anything else on the island by the time they FOOMed back and he dove in to save Hurley.

And that's how people get broken necks and dead. Even if you've swum there before, you have no idea what changes there may have been, from landslide, erosion, or even just the odd waterlogged tree trunk floating just below the surface. IF YOU CAN'T SEE INTO THE WATER, you don't trust it to be free of obstructions/deep enough. You're taking a chance even if you jump feet first, but a broken leg is more surviable than a broken neck.

Says this old Scout Lifeguard.

#254. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 20, 2009 6:26 PM

@ 156 Lost in ca

"Everybody is saying Ben had gone to kill Penny, and part of the evidence for this is that he is at the marina. If I am remembering right, it wasn't long ago that Des spoke to Charles Whidmore in England. I was under the impression that they had only a day or so to get to LA, so that would mean they had to fly there, not sail. Right?"

I'm in almost complete agreement. The only wild card being when did Desmond meet with Charles Widmore? It would have taken them weeks to sail to California from London so if the off island stories are synchronized then there is no way Des, Penny and LC (Little Charlie) could have made it by boat. I'm REALLY hoping that the marina was a red herring.

@93 dk Re: Ben praying
"I noticed that and was thinking that's not what I thought Ben would do."

I also thought it was strange to see Ben praying. We know he arrived at the island as a boy. Unless there was a Dharma Cathedral they haven't shown us, it doesn't seem he was ever a practicing Catholic. I doubt his father was either (he most likely would have taken him to church). The significance is that Ben was becoming increasingly desperate at getting back to the island. His getting angry at Jack and Sun in the van last episode was another sign. Ben is always in control and both of these point to him getting very close to losing it. And we know Ben loves to be in control. Now Ben knowing about Thomas the Apostle is not surprising. Ben is a very good learner.

I was so disappointed that I hadn't read "Ulysses". I started to and put it down. Now, of course, regret.

JFFJ - Jump Feet First Jack!

And finally...

Where could Aaron be?
Kate refuses to discuss.
Jack worries then mates.

#255. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 20, 2009 6:31 PM

Wow! I can't believe how many posts there have been today. What kind of crazy madman has been wasting away his day filling up this place?

I am so guilty as charged!
I am almost frightened to look back at how much I have posted today, because I know it is uber-tons!

I wasn't lying when I originally posted that I had mixed feelings about this episode! Apparently I require a crazy amount of multiple postings in order to sort through these mixed feelings, lol!

In any case - I'm sure this urge will pass! If anything, it's seldom that I can maintain consistent posting, and even more rare for my postings to actually be consistent! ;)


@252. Posted by: LostedIt
re: Jack + Kate

Jack's reference is to everyone on the plane. He is in awe that almost everyone who left have changed their minds.

Kate's response came off as cheeky, which is why you can read into it as a response to Jack alone. By all means, this is speculative!

She very well could be referring to the notion that everyone on that plane has their own separate agenda, and that they are not together like a team.

Her response could also be in direct reference to his mentioning Hurley and Sayid. Perhaps she is very much aware of the events that lead to their change of heart, and perhaps this is also related to her giving up Aaron?

The only thing we are certain about is that she is salty!

#256. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 6:55 PM

250. Posted by: shikotee
The science of this article.
Just adds more questions! Wouldn't the other pockets of strange matter be moving also. Oops, I forgot, it would be inconvenient for filming if the lamp post and church kept moving.
I'm with the disgruntled group - they got some splainin to do to make up for this one.

#257. Posted by: mtncbn at February 20, 2009 7:13 PM

→ 236. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 3:54 PM

I just watched that scene and I beleive the first sound you hear is a door closing. Same door that Jack closed when he entered the apartmaent. Then you hear her walk across the room and flop onto the bed. When Jack first sees her she has nothing in her (right) hand, then he saus her name and the camera focuses on her she has a kleenex in her right hand. I think she came into the apartment after Jack.

#258. Posted by: btly at February 20, 2009 7:27 PM

@258. Posted by: btly

Ummmmmm - I think the layout of his place makes that near impossible. He is standing in the kitchen, by the stove when he hears the noise. The door to the room is in plain site. You can't see the front door, but the area someone would enter is in plane sight. Re-watch, keeping in mind the dimensions of the place.

Lol - not a mini fridge that he snags the bottle from, but some wooden thing. Dark in that room, lol!

#259. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 7:46 PM

→ 259. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 7:46 PM
Maybe it is a bathroom door that gets closed. Listen to it. It is deffinately a door closing and you hear her walk to the bed with shoes on.

#260. Posted by: btly at February 20, 2009 7:51 PM

@258. Posted by: btly

The sound could be that of a door, if there is a 2nd entrance to his place, but nothing seems to indicate that this exists.

#261. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 7:56 PM

@260. Posted by: btly

LoL - It is so funny that we are having this debate, considering the limited relevance to either scenario.

There is the initial sound (that you think is door), followed by a sound that is likely the bed. The only footsteps I hear are Jack's. I'm watching on my iBook, so I concede that my speakers might be skimpy.

The 2nd sound, if bed, could be Kate simply moving on the bed...

Any other detectives out there?

This discussion feels so Rashomon...

#262. Posted by: shikotee at February 20, 2009 8:08 PM

Uh, wait. Another thing that struck me as odd about this episode that I finally was able to bring to the forefront a fwe days post-air-date:

Kate and her whole "I'll just meet you at the airport" thing was weird. Really weird. She was acting just ... strange. The whole breakfast/coffee thing seemed weird and then she just dissappeared. Where did she go? What did she do? Why did she just take off alone?

Yes, I know. Flight is her MO, but something about it just wasn't right. Just can't quite articulate why or how...

#263. Posted by: GatorGal at February 20, 2009 8:37 PM

@28 MadamIm posted:

>The 'condolences' guy is apparently named Caesar (according to IMDB) and is played by Saïd Taghmaoui.

I *knew* I'd seen him somewhere recently. I looked up his profile on IMDB and he was in the British production "House of Saddam".

Belated thanks.

#264. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 20, 2009 8:37 PM

Crispy -
So if you don't know if its been mentioned already then you probably didn't scan previous posts.

I have been scanning previous posts for 2 days now. This blog is unmanageable. I keep wanting to reply but know that somebody else probably already did. I try to keep notes but then get sidetracked. what a shame. You guys will never know all the witty and truly deep and wise thoughts I have.......oh, well.

#265. Posted by: berkyo at February 20, 2009 8:40 PM

@192/ChiTownTeach: "I'm pretty sure I saw Eko's brother's Virgin Mary drug statue on Hawking's desk."

This intrigued me, and thought it could be significant ... alas, going frame-by-frame until we see the front of the statue on her desk, it is NOT the same statue. Feeling a bit too lazy right now to post pics of the drug/Hawking statues side-by-side, but trust me, they are not the same (Hawking's holds the baby Jesus, while the drug statue does not, with a Sacred Heart emblazoned on Mary's chest instead).

As they aren't the same, this potential clue means nothing, but thought it a worthwhile endeavor to check it out ... rats!

#266. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 8:42 PM

Check THIS OUT:

Jack's seat number on the Guam flight was 8C, and the Ajira flight left from gate 15.

#267. Posted by: GatorGal at February 20, 2009 8:53 PM

i just watched 316 wow - information overload, it took us months,(sometimes years) to find out small peices of info, - now we get it in the last 2 eps, fantastic episode this week.

#268. Posted by: san at February 20, 2009 9:15 PM

I only have read the first few posts (I know, we all hate posts like this).

I thought it was neat how Sayid was being escorted, like Kate was in the past. Hurley brought the guitar, Charlie...

Kate drowned Aaron in a bath tub. I am SURE of it.

What the heck happened to Ben? Rough sex? (sorry)

I thought Jack's grandad story was out there - thought it was Hurley. Maybe they are the same.

This wine is good.

#269. Posted by: meg at February 20, 2009 9:16 PM

it is strange to watch how all of the charecters act on the island, then see how they are in the city, ben looks like he was in a fight with someone more powerful than himself, - maybe widmores people??

#270. Posted by: san at February 20, 2009 9:25 PM

@263/GatorGal: "Kate ... was acting just ... strange. ... Yes, I know. Flight is her MO, but something about it just wasn't right. Just can't quite articulate why or how..."

Remember that this epi was originally supposed to be next week's epi. I suspect the producers changed the order for two reasons:

(1) Ratings have been slipping, and I'm guessing next week's epi, "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham," is not going to be big on answers/action, so they decided to air "316" first to give the show a shot of adrenaline (i.e., getting the O6, or at least most of them, back to the island), and

(2) Next week's epi will answer some of the questions this one raised ... most notably, what happened to Aaron, and why Kate is acting so weird about it. By reversing the order of the epis, it creates some tension/confusion/interest over the answers we will certainly get next week.

As such, I expect next week to be somewhat of a snooze, given that we've seen what happens after the fact (as most of next week's epi will be presented as flashback, I'm guessing).

One thing is obvious to me ... Kate did NOT get on the plane because she really WANTED to ... probably some desperate Ben maneuver done at the last second to force her hand.

#271. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 9:32 PM

just back from vaca, catching up on posts, stopping at 156 to throw this out there.
@ 156. Posted by: Lost in ca

Somebody mentioned flight 316 landing on that runway that Sawyer and Kate had to build, but that was shot down by somebody else mentioning the runway was built on the other island.

But, that would explain a future flash of the canoes with the Ajira water bottles. Maybe the plane lands safely and they use the canoes to get to the main island.

#272. Posted by: Steve at February 20, 2009 9:35 PM

I knew I should have read just a few more :-(
@162. Posted by: Gris

What if the FOOM only took Jack, Kate, and Hurley and put them in the 70's with Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, etc.
The plane lands at regular time on the other island with Ben, Sayid, and Sun

#273. Posted by: Steve at February 20, 2009 9:41 PM

@222/Crispy Seaplanes:
****SPOILER****
The newest Entertainment Weekly with the Watchmen on the cover had a short blurb saying that in addition to already dead Charlotte, another "major-ish" character would bite the dust by the end of the season.
Not sure what constitutes a "major-ish" character though.
****END OF SPOILER****

****RESPONSE TO SPOILER****
I'm guessing that whoever this majorish character is, it'll be the one Juliet shot from the canoe. My bet? She shot, and ends up killing ... [rim shot] herself!
****END OF RESPONSE TO SPOILER****

#274. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 9:43 PM

GRAA, Mac! I gotta ask, why are they going to the Island if they can go to Margaritaville instead? ;) And being forced to read Ulysses is just the punishment Ben deserved!

I, too, found several things a little too convenient...but I am hopeful we will find out more as this mini-arc continues. As for your questions, I assume it was Charlie (or one of the other dead Lostians that Hurley sees on a regular basis) that convinced him to get on the flight. And I don't think it is Sayid who beat up Benry Gale, but Desmond. When Ben left the church he told Jack he had a promise to an old friend to keep...I assumed this was the promise to Widmore that he'd kill Penny.

Big questions (besides the obvious): Why is Sayid being extradited to Guam of all places? Also, Ben calls Jack from a pay phone. The phone appeared to be at a dock. This leads me to ask did Desmond and Penny sail from London to LA? Hardly something you can do in 72 hours!

@ 6. ilovebenjaminlinusxx: Cesar (Saïd Taghmaoui)is a new character. The actor did appear in Vantage Point with Matthew Fox (as well in a lot of other TV shows and the excellent film Traitor).

@ 7. anjou: Yeah that was a great little scene. Ben lies just so damn easily, too!

@ 12. Kaytie: Jeff Fahey has been hot at least since the 80s. Amazing eyes!

@ 15. Christine Loves Lost: Nope, no passport required to go to Guam for Americans. While Kate's parole states she cannot leave the state, I doubt they have all the highways and airports staked out looking for her. And she could ahve always used an alias, she does have some experience with that...


#275. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 20, 2009 10:00 PM

@273/Steve: "What if the FOOM only took Jack, Kate, and Hurley and put them in the 70's with Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, etc.
The plane lands at regular time on the other island with Ben, Sayid, and Sun."

Great theory (just different enough not to have me rolling my eyes ala Fringe/Langoliers!)! Although, to be honest, I HOPE they could find a way to be back "in sync" time-wise (would hate to see Sun/Jin separated by years) ... perhaps "The Incident?"

#276. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 10:07 PM

Long-time reader, first time poster. This is the best Lost blog by far. Did anyone else make a connection between the Lamp Post station and the Lamp Post in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis? The Lamp Post is the spot in Narnia where Lucy first meets Mr. Tumnus. It apparently came into organic existence when the evil White Witch threw an iron bar from a London streetlight at Aslan (the Christ figure,) who then "sang" it into the Lamp Post that shines day and night in the middle of the forest. http://narnia.wikia.com/wiki/Lamp-post

#277. Posted by: unscripted at February 20, 2009 10:14 PM

@ unscripted
they draw a lot of things from lots of sources,lion-witch- wardrobe - wizard of oz etc, nice spot from you

#278. Posted by: san at February 20, 2009 10:33 PM

@123/welh: "From a screencap of Jin's Dharma jumpsuit, it appears the logo is of a five pointed star."

I must ask ... how do you know this? I've gone through that sequence frame-by-frame, and the closest I see to evidence of this is the (possible) very bottom of what MIGHT be an inverted pentagram (three points, just barely showing) ... oh hell, I've gotten over my inherent laziness and posted the pic!

tinyurl.com/dxr6yd

And yes, that's the BEST pic available ... so please explain how you know that's a five pointed star? Just a guess? Maybe correct, maybe not ... or do you know something we don't? Not trying to be pissy ... just wondering ... could just as well be a Star of David from what I see, or completely something else for that matter ... not enough info to infer ...

#279. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 10:39 PM

@226/Christin:
"Did anyone else notice how the scene where Jack meets up with Hurley and Kate on the island was slightly different the second time than it was the first time.

The first time, when Kate woke up, she goes 'Are we...' and Jack says 'Yes, we're back.' Didn't happen the second time around - right?? Think it means something or just an accident?"

Call me the frame-by-frame junkie, but yes ... you are correct ... the scene is different! In fact, the whole scene was obviously shot more than once, as it's different from before Jack dives in and beyond ... the second time, Jack checks her pulse, then she wakes up and responds "What happened?" first.

Don't know if this is supposed to imply a time-loop (which is consistent with the theory STILL near and dear to my heart ... time stuck looping between 1954 and 2008), or just sloppy production ... but I'd bet on the latter. Been burned too many times already by giving more credit to the production staff for being clever in such a way than they deserve ...

#280. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 11:07 PM

Re my theory that everything in Lost has "happened" between 1954 and 2008, and they are stuck in some kind of temporal loop ...

Ms. Hawking seems to imply down in the Lamp Post that "event windows" appear regularly ... then WHY is it SO critical that they happen to catch the 316 flight? Why not just wait until the next window? Hmm ...

My theory ... the "70 hour window" she told Ben about ends when "the loop" BEGINS ... bear with me ...

Can't shake my theory that "the numbers" represent the number of years between time skips/jumps (I've mentioned the correlations multiple times now, and not going to bore you with it again). Keep feeling that the end of the "70 hour window" marks the time when the O6 (et al, minus others?) need to get back in time to "break the cycle" so to speak.

Maybe way out there, but ... think the "purpose" of the Losties is to "course correct" time out of this 1954-2008 loop, back onto a linear track in 2008, at the "end" of the loop.

This is why the Lamp Post and other Dharma stations/minions always have such "old" technology ... they do not have "the time" to upgrade before the loop begins again, and are stuck with what they have "at the time" in terms of tech ... they need to rely upon the now relatively ancient computers and pendulum (complete with what looks like a giant magnetometer which Des crouches down in front of, as well as the huge electro-magnets at opposite sides of the map to guide the iron pendulum via feedback toward the "windows" ... okay, I'm making this up, but makes as much sense as anything I saw in this epi!).

Okay, one more "geek" bitch ... the printouts Hawking passed to Jack were from a laser printer, not a line-printer or dot-matrix printer consistent with the rest of the Lamp Post tech ... having had to work with the "real" tech-ancient equipment (unfortunately!), this was a glaring production error, but quite forgivable ... :)

#281. Posted by: ealgumby at February 20, 2009 11:36 PM

re: 281-ealgumby
I haven't seen any extreme detail analysis needed like the old days..frames within smokey's cloud.. John/Jeremy obituary..blast door map..year dated by props(razor phone)..ad infintum, lately.
I repeat my Little Prince post

**
I think LOST HAD(past tense) a super ground breaking break through in television programming. Network pressure and the desire to bring in new viewers has diluted it badly. There is no other series that I follow like this one.

The minute detail analysis necessary to follow it has disappeared. No need for blogs and frame by frame dissection. Key components of the LOST following.

If the TPTB are listening, play to the core group that made you famous, screw the newcomers(unless they are willing to watch 90 hours of history to get up to speed).

TPTB are forgiven for early oopses ie-no time travel - they new not where they where going. The plan to make it a six year show, phenomenal. A model for future programming.

I have vented, I feel better.
→ 228. Posted by: mtncbn at February 9, 2009 1:25 AM
**

#282. Posted by: mtncbn at February 21, 2009 12:05 AM

@ 31. Landa: Why would Mrs. hawking react? She already knew Daniel was stuck on the island and time traveling on it...she ran into him in the episode Jughead.

@ 33. davidrh: Did Kate screw up? Claire told her not to dare bring him back. Don;t you dare, Kate! ;)

@ 35. ilovebenjaminlinusxx: Yes, it is just you.

@ 40. vacc: Yeah I thought it was going to be Horace Godspeed in the VW as well! Jin was a great reveal, seems to tie in with Daniel at the construction of the Orchid in episode 1.

@ 41. ilovebenjaminlinusxx: I really think you need to watch the episode again...

44. Amy R: Um, would you choose a pathological lying con artist who has issues getting in touch with his emotions, is selfish, and has a history of not helping others unless there is something in it for himself (although he has grown some in that last respect) over a caring, gifted surgeon? If so I have a shrink I could recommend to you...

@ 45. ransomjackson: Um, Des does recognize Mrs. Hawking, he says she convinced him to enter the boat race.

@ 48. LostedIt: I had a TRS-80 too, with 16k of memory. We had a tape recorder as our sole storage device. We've come a long way, huh?

@ 67. PeterIsLost: Well, he was living as Jeremy Bentham, so signing a suicide note "John Locke" might have raised a few eyebrows!

@ 76. lovelost: Being "ginger" in England is not a desired trait. I don't really know how it all started, but it's pervasive. Catherine Tate did a brilliant sketch on her show where she was being taken to a shelter for Gingers.

@ 81. lovelost: Um, no one was surprised that Mrs. Hawking was Daniel's mother because it was pretty freaking obvious from the moment he told Desmond to find his mother, and tried to tell him that she has a different surname. Or maybe that was just me.

@ 84. welh: Seriously, dude. You should just stop watching Lost now. If there was evidence that Hurley couldn't have possibly committed the murders and he had a high-powered attorney, he would certainly be released. And Hurley bought up all the still empty seats. Are you saying Ajira wouldn't take his money for seats no one else had purchased? Finally, Frank. It's three years later, he's obviously cleaned himself up, and he's working for an Indian airline (whose standards are no doubt much lower than a US carrier).

@ 219 Len: Because there was no wreckage. Just water bottles. There are, however, a lot of people who post here without paying attention to what actually happened in the episode...

#283. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 21, 2009 12:13 AM

Did anyone make out what the logo for the Lamp Post was? I could tell there was a Dharma logo on the door, just couldn't see the center of it.

Oh, and I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

#284. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 21, 2009 12:17 AM

@252/LostedIt: "Everyone delving deeply into the religious ramifications of this episode, I just hope this show doesn't turn in a bible study group. I'm not interested and would probably be offended at having to know some religious text and it's nuances in order to 'get' things on this show."

As no one else seems to be listening/posting right now, I'm gonna wax philosophic on this, so forgive me if I run long ...

It seems to me that the Lost writers/producers have made every effort to mention as many cultural references as possible in this show ... in fact, I have criticized them in the past for taking such a buckshot approach ... hit everything, and you're bound to make someone happy!

From a liberal arts perspective, what HAVEN'T they hit upon? Notably, the literary references have been strung along like a freight train ... but it goes far beyond that. Art, literature, theater, film, television, philosophy, science, and yes, theology, have all been addressed in spades. And why not? To eliminate any one from this group would itself reek of intentional exclusion ... and why? For PC reasons? Damn, I certainly hope not! I'd think much less of the writers/producers if they did!

Without regard to religious belief, or lack thereof, I think it quite reasonable to expect that some/many of the characters involved in this "story" might realize something (or at the very least apparently) supernatural is going on, and turn toward religion as a means of explanation, or coping. We've all heard of battlefield conversion (right?) ... might someone possibly look toward "God" when faced with the irrational/inexplicable happenings that we've seen on the show to date? Frankly, I'd expect at least an O3 or O4 to have turned to "God" by now, faced with what they've been through.

Not professing an inclination here ... just stating what I see as reasonable fact. Risking the crossing of a line here, but in the interest of fairness, I consider myself what the military called NRP ... "No Religious Preference" ... but that doesn't mean atheist/agnostic either, which I am not. Hopefully, most out there will see someone like me as objective enough to tackle this issue ... probably not for everyone, via experience, but perhaps just enough to make my point ...

Okay, here I go ...

Like it or not, western society tends toward Christianity, and most here on the blog probably fall into that category ... at least by upbringing, if nothing else. So, something like the "316" epi title is BOUND to bring about immediate response from the audience. I, for one, do NOT think this is pandering to the Bible study group ... anyone remember Rollen Stewart, the "rainbow wig dude" with the John 3:16 signs at every televised sporting event in the 70's/80's? He ingrained himself into pop culture, just as surely as atheist/agnostic/tepid-church-goer Homer Simpson did a generation later. Frankly, I cannot think of "316" WITHOUT thinking of Rainbow Man, and John 3:16 ... "it" has effectively become part of pop culture, and there's no getting rid if it, belief or not.

Regarding other Biblical refs ... well, we have numerous other literary refs, right? Why not from the most purchased book in the world? Ya think people, even those who've never heard of, let alone read, Ulysses, might get those refs? How many people in the western world (the primary audience for Lost), especially the US, have a copy of the Bhagavad Gita or I Ching on their shelves? How much commentary do you suppose refs from those tomes would elicit in the states? I'm guessing ... huh?

I rest my case ... I hope.

That being said ... for those who think Jacob is God, Locke is Jesus, and Smokey is the Holy Ghost ... I just don't think so ... no disrespect, but this is ABC, not EWTN ...

Hope I have not pissed anyone off, but that's as I see things with regard to religion on Lost ...

#285. Posted by: ealgumby at February 21, 2009 12:43 AM

DITHES - Dan Is Two Hundred and Eighty Sixth!

Would have posted earlier, but as I mentioned last week I'm travelling at the moment. I was reduced to watching the epi on the train on my laptop.

Just a quick addendum to all the Prisoner references: the entire original series is available online courtesy of AMC. You have to be in the US (or able to make yourself look like you're in the US). Check it out:

http://www.amctv.com/originals/the-prisoner-1960s-series/

#286. Posted by: Daniel Denial at February 21, 2009 1:25 AM

If the Island does course correcting, then somewhere in this season there will be an episode titled "Everybody hates Jack"

GRAA, Mac!

#287. Posted by: Sayidina at February 21, 2009 1:41 AM

I watched the episode again, and I had to comment about Ben's call to Jack. "Something came up, I'm going to need you to pick up Locke's body on the way to the airport". Jack sighs...I mean, isn't this a HUGE imposition??!

#288. Posted by: meg at February 21, 2009 9:49 AM

@196/Shikotee: YOU are, Number Six!
→ 205. Posted by: PiecesofArzt

Can I be one of the girls in the cute little outfits that used to bring things and escort people? I don't think they had numbers. And weren't all the numbered people bad anyway? except for the Prisoner?

I think the scarf admirers here would like this show.

#289. Posted by: berkyo at February 21, 2009 10:13 AM

@284. Posted by: FenwayBen

re: "Oh, and I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered."

:)

@286. Posted by: Daniel Denial

"DITHES - Dan Is Two Hundred and Eighty Sixth!"

But who will be the 316th to post here?

Many thanks for the AMC Prisoner link!
I have the series on DVD, but there are lots of other goodies on the site. For those unawares - check it out!

@265. Posted by: berkyo

re: "I keep wanting to reply but know that somebody else probably already did."

Just do it! Just don't be as extreme as I have been over the past day! ;)

@269. Posted by: meg
"Kate drowned Aaron in a bath tub. I am SURE of it."

LoL! I'm more convinced she past proxied herself by putting him in a house and blowing it up! She crazy man!

And good to hear that the classic formula of "Lost + Wine = fun" is still in use!

@271. Posted by: ealgumby
re: "Kate did NOT get on the plane because she really WANTED to"

Not certain if she was forced, but she definitely made a tough decision, and is coping with it. She clearly misses turnip head - but just had to blow up a house a 2nd time! ;)

@272. Posted by: Steve
re: airstrip on Hydra island

Me likes! It certainly is a possibility!
With all that we have now seen and know, we do have to wonder what was the purpose of building this airstrip? With the time travel element, perhaps someone knew 316 was coming, which is why they built it in the first place? It would certainly explain how we saw the water bottles in that time-line!

@285. Posted by: ealgumby
re: Lost and religion

Agreed. They are not aiming for mass conversion here.

For people who feel the creeps on the religious themes, did you feel this way with the Echo back-story?

#290. Posted by: shikotee at February 21, 2009 10:13 AM

@289. Posted by: berkyo

re: "And weren't all the numbered people bad anyway? except for the Prisoner?"

You've made another link to a theme in Lost. This uncertainty of whether the Others are good or bad.

In Prisoner, there was that unknown element of who was in league with the powers that controlled the place, and who were fellow prisoners.

It messes with your mind enough to make your nose bleed!

#291. Posted by: shikotee at February 21, 2009 10:21 AM

@279/ealgumby:
"From a screencap of Jin's Dharma jumpsuit, it appears the logo is of a five pointed star."
I must ask ... how do you know this?

From other commentators and sites who said it looked like a pentagram, I said that it "appears" to be a five pointed star. Lostpedia references it as the Sheriff. However, I don't recall the woman who Tom called the Sheriff ever wearing a logo patch (or for that matter any of the security members). So I assume the patch is a star.

@283/ FenwayBen

I did not write the show into an increasing number of unrealistic corners. If you are going to put in a factual plot point, then you should be aware of its ramifications. For example, the writers did not have to have Hurley arrested. Hurley's hot pocket could have hit Ben in the eye, blinding him long enough for Hurley to make a pancake tackle, thereby breaking Ben's spine to make him immobile while Hurley duct taped his limbs. An hour after Hurley flees his house, we then could have heard his mother yell, "why is there a large sewer rat duct taped to my kitchen floor?"

#292. Posted by: welh at February 21, 2009 10:36 AM

→ 190. Posted by: hurlingI like my sci-fi without overwhelming religious overtones.

Me too. I'll be really pissed if this is a Christian parable. I am not making any comments yet but I need a reasonable scientific explan for this going back to the island.

ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
→ 218. Posted by: freckles
Someone way back (couldn't find the number) mentioned Jin and Daniel working for Dharma. But wouldn't it be more difficult to slip onto a work detail? Doesn't Dharma know exactly who they've hired, seeing as they have to go to some lengths to get people on the island? I think they'd take Jin and Daniel to be Hostiles.

The Comic con video shows Halli Whatis making a plea to the future to come back and help them even though he knows it is futile. We hear what may be Faraday and Sawyer talking plus the crying baby. So the Dharma may be expecting them.


mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
→ 223. Posted by: Brian
The explanation for that is either going to have to be pretty good OR maybe we'll find out that Ben & Hawking are lying because they want them back for their own purposes.

Yes, I don't believe any of the crap they fed the 06. And I don't think they believe it either. Just Jack.....leaping


hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

→ 226. Posted by: Christin
The first time, when Kate woke up, she goes "Are we..." and Jack says "Yes, we're back." Didn't happen the second time around - right?? Think it means something or just an accident?

I saw that. Must be important, one of them is a flash forward to another epi. Too big a mistake to make.

dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
@213 shikotee→ 229. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes
I like your idea about it not really mattering what item you brought or needing to proxy for someone. It seems like a way to make the characters go out of their way to prove their belief--to make their leap of faith.

It would be crazier if they just got on the plane with no explanation.......this proxy stuff while way out there is at least a "reason".
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
→ 230. Posted by: ransomjackson
Toward the beginning of the ep, when Jack finds Kate in his bedroom, he went in there because he heard a clumpy bumpy sort of noise. But when he got there Kate was sleeping in the middle of his bed, nowhere near anything that might've made the noise. So what/who did?

Yes, I read the explan about the bottle and it could be, but maybe she was dumped there by someone? Someone who took Aaron and told her she'd never see him again unless she goes back. was there an open window?

yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
@243: shikotee - → 252. Posted by: LostedItI think only living people move with time. Once they die they appear to be left behind wherever they died. I've seen no anecdotal instances to contradict that perception.

How about the dead doc who floated to the island and arrived at a different time?

pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
and once again....→ 256. Posted by: shikotee
She very well could be referring to the notion that everyone on that plane has their own separate agenda, and that they are not together like a team.
Her response could also be in direct reference to his mentioning Hurley and Sayid. Perhaps she is very much aware of the events that lead to their change of heart, and perhaps this is also related to her giving up Aaron?The only thing we are certain about is that she is salty!

She probably blames Jack's wanting to return for whatever happened to Aaron. She was forced to do this.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
→ 263. Posted by: GatorGal
Yes, I know. Flight is her MO, but something about it just wasn't right. Just can't quite articulate why or how...

I agree. They all have something going in their heads that we don't know about yet. Just Jack is going back for Locke.

#293. Posted by: berkyo at February 21, 2009 11:22 AM

@286. Posted by: Daniel Denial
re: amctv Prisoner site

Thanking you once more for linking this site! Very much enjoying going through the production photos, taking the quiz. I really liked the "Who Is the Most Dangerous No. 2?" tournament.

For the new series, it seems like Ian McKellen is the only #2? That is a shame.

Imagine how Ben would be as one of the #2's.

Now that you think about it, isn't Ben the #2 of the Lost world (if Jacob is #1)?

#294. Posted by: shikotee at February 21, 2009 12:44 PM

For all of you who want to see some swinging pendulum victims or Jack learning the hard way not to dive head first, watch this weeks episode of Lost Untangled: http://tinyurl.com/23nf8z

#295. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 21, 2009 1:48 PM

@286, Daniel Denial: Thanks for The Prisoner link, I've been wanting to watch it for some time now. Too bad it only works in the US... so I still have to keep wanting.

#296. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 21, 2009 2:35 PM

Sorry if this has already been mentioned. Grandad Ray is Jack!

Heard this from another Lost fan and I've heard crazier theories. The little references like "I'm always trying to get out", and grandad's mannerisms kinda of tie into Jack persona. Casting agents also did an excellent job in finding an actor who looked like an old Jack.

#297. Posted by: IslandHopper at February 21, 2009 2:35 PM

I just watched the webisodes again. They are all enlightening but the last one is The Watch.

I posted about this up above. If jack ahs his grand dads watch, why use the shoes??? And is there really something in the line of the Shepards? have they all been involved with the island? Did Gramps have a drinking problem too? I don't believe that Jack is his grandpop ......well, I mean.
But I remember the speech Dad gave to Jack when he was asking Jack to lie for him. About how he raised Jack strictly to prepare him for the biggest job ever. saving thousands of lives? something like that.Did he know he would go to the island? And fail? I have to go find it again. Curious.

#298. Posted by: berkyo at February 21, 2009 3:12 PM

This is what Christain says. All cowboys have daddy issues.

CHRISTIAN SHEPHARD: I know I have been hard on you, but that is how you make a soft metal into steel. That is why you are the most gifted young surgeon in this city. And this, this is a career that is all about the greater good. I've had to sacrifice certain aspects of my relationship with you so that hundreds and thousands of patients will live because of your extraordinary skills. I know it's a long time coming. What happened yesterday, I promise you, will never happen again. And after all, what I've given -- this is not just about my career, Jack. It's my life.

and here is the script of the watch - just the part about the watch.

CHRISTIAN: Wise choice! Listen, before tonight; before... before things get crazy, I wanted to give you something. This was my dad's, and I just - I thought it would only be fitting.

[Christian pulls a watch out of a white handkerchief.]

JACK: I've never seen you wear it before.

CHRISTIAN: Well that's because I never did. [Jack and Christian chuckle] Your grandfather... didn't really like ... your mother. You know, he thought marrying her was a mistake. He told me - to my face - that, the day that I got married. And then he gave me this watch. So I never wore it.

JACK: Dad, are you trying to tell me something?

CHRISTIAN: Unlike me, you have made the absolute right choice.

JACK [chuckling]: Thank you.

CHRISTIAN: So here, it's yours.

#299. Posted by: berkyo at February 21, 2009 3:21 PM

@299, berkyo: So if Christian never wore the watch and it was really his dad's watch, then perhaps that's why it wouldn't do for Jack. Hence the shoes.

#300. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 21, 2009 4:02 PM

Per my → 297 post, still gotta think there is more to the picture of bringing Grandad into this... "just to deliver the shoes"?? Rewatched the scene and love the line Grandad Ray delivers about escaping the home. "What would I do without my "Magic Shows".

Also noticed how shocked Jack looked when he saw the shoes. Just a little too convenient that they would be there for him to pluck. The look on his face seem to say more than these on an old pair of pop's shoes.

Jack=Ray=Jacob. Maybe explains why Christian Shepard is hanging around Jacob's Cabin.

Ok... I just noticed a red drip on my sweatshirt.

#301. Posted by: IslandHopper at February 21, 2009 5:45 PM

... and to follow up on my post → 301, are there opinions that once we see the Black Rock back story (in Season 6), it will be helmed by Captain Jack Sparrow (I mean Shepard).

Update on the earlier post, just spilt red wine, not a nose bleed.

#302. Posted by: Island Hopper at February 21, 2009 6:55 PM

@ 272. Posted by: Steve

Hey, I like that! It sure beats the heck out of thinking they brought two outrigger canoes on the airplane... They probably just had them over on Alcatraz, and decided to put them to use.

This leads to the question, do the two islands skip together? I would guess so since Dharma was running a ferry service between the two.

Also, just wondering, does anyone have a theory on why the beach camp is deserted??

#303. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 21, 2009 7:06 PM

@283. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 21, 2009 12:13 AM

Being an Indian, i find ur comment "and he's working for an Indian airline (whose standards are no doubt much lower than a US carrier)." in very bad taste.
You mean to say an Indian airlines wudnt mind a cleaned up drinking pilot n a US-Carrier wud mind? Why will the US then allow it to fly domestic n intl flights within is region?

#304. Posted by: Altamash at February 21, 2009 7:15 PM

I wanted to echo what Ealgumby wrote. If you avoid anything that has Biblical motifs, you'll be closing your self off to a large percentage of Western literature. Not just the obvious like Milton's Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno, but Moby Dick, Don Quixote, many of Shakespeare's plays, Anne Rice's vampire novels, and even Pinocchio. And not just literature, many of the greatest works of art from the Renaissance are taken from Biblical tales.

Now there is a difference between literature with Biblical motifs and Christian Literature (such as the Left Behind series). I can understand a non-Christian not wanting to read (or watch) Christian Lit, but avoiding anything that references the Bible is beyond my comprehension. Especially given how many other faith systems Lost has also drawn from.

#305. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 21, 2009 7:35 PM

@296. Posted by: Plain Simple

re: "Too bad it only works in the US..."

There are, of course, ways to get around this. Google is your friend!

I really HATE regional restrictions on the internet, and sadly, it is the way things are going.

If the corporations have their way, we will eventually have a multi-tiered internet, similar to channel packages in the TV world.

Net Neutrality is one of the most important issues of our times...

#306. Posted by: shikotee at February 21, 2009 7:48 PM

→ 305 FenwayBen

Great points. I seem to zero in on Joseph Campbell, perhaps the voice of Historical Theology from this generation. His "suffering hero" religion analogies from his seminal work "Hero of a Thousand Faces" seems to be (at least) one source for the Lost Writers.

#307. Posted by: IslandHopper at February 21, 2009 7:50 PM

@ Everyone who hates the "proxy" idea.: What if Mrs. Hawking was lying? What if she needed an excuse to get Locke back to the Island so he could be "reincarnated", resurrected, whatever, so she made up a story about why Jack needed to escort the coffin onto the plane. And maybe she knew Ben wasn't supposed to go back with them. Just a theory.

@ 217. shikotee: Welcome to the wonderful world of BSG! The miniseries that started it all was one of the best few hours of TV IMHO, and the series has had more highs than lows. SciFi.com has a very large online community, but it is wicked easy to get lost in the shuffle there, and most folks are interested in discussing the current episodes (well, that and there are a ton of Shipper and appreciation threads). I never did find a good, reasonably sized community.

@ 228. shikotee: Please save yourself, and do not voluntarily read Ulysses!

@ 252. LostedIt: Psst! The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is a Christian allegory. CS Lewis was a Theologian as well as a children's author. Aslan = Christ.

@ 292. welh: the show has been unrealistic since Day 1. :shrugs:

@ 295. Plain Simple: Why is Jin speaking Japanese?

@ 304. Altamash: Sorry you're offended, but just last month there was an article about the US possibly taking action against Indian-owned airlines for failing to meet ICOA standards. Not US standards, but international standards. http://tinyurl.com/bdyqkl

#308. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 21, 2009 8:48 PM

it seems like this blog is getting bigger every week, mac does a good job with his view of the show, anyway-i think this new guy we seen in lots of scenes (condolences to jack at the airport check in guy) he will either feature loads over the next few episodes - or we will never see him again, the writers like to keep us on our toes!

#309. Posted by: san at February 21, 2009 10:49 PM

@283 FenwayBen mentioned:

>@ 48. LostedIt: I had a TRS-80 too, with 16k of memory. We had a tape recorder as our sole storage device. We've come a long way, huh?

But at least we could also play Geronimo Jackson on them.

#310. Posted by: Cecil at February 21, 2009 11:17 PM

@309 san said:

>it seems like this blog is getting bigger every week...

So far "Jughead" is still the champ at 391, but the week is young. ("Because you Left" and "The Lie" are at 421, but that was a double ep, so you should divide by two.)

#311. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 21, 2009 11:28 PM

Cecil - your posts alone will compensate for any others in a valiant effort to top the previous high posts. Keep up the good work. NOT!!!!

Sorry for the negative post. I am a 1st time poster and it seems as if this blog is a Cecil Rose forum. My Gawd, let others get in there for a fresh breath of air, will you?

#312. Posted by: Judgemenot at February 22, 2009 12:14 AM

@ 310. Cecil : I don't remember being able to play any games on mine (that's what the Atari was for...), but I could write a program that made my "monitor" (read: the TV set it was hooked up to) flash through 8 different colors. Including cyan and magenta. ;)

@ 312. Judgemenot: Um, relax. And breath as much as you want to.

#313. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 22, 2009 1:10 AM

@308, FenwayBen: "@ 295. Plain Simple: Why is Jin speaking Japanese?"

Uh, I dunno... his mother taught him?

#314. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 22, 2009 2:14 AM

@312, Judgemenot: I count 10 posts by Cecil. That's not that much on a total of 315 is it?

#315. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 22, 2009 2:16 AM

Well, I couldn't resist...No. 316!!! ; )

#316. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at February 22, 2009 2:36 AM

Why is Ben calling Jack from a pay phone? You mean to tell me that he has 25 passports and no cell phone? And he happens to have a quarter in his wallet…right next to his Traveler’s Checks?

So the island is on one of these pockets located all over the world. Another pocket is in LA? And another in Tunisia? How come the last two pockets don’t move around in space/time? I know the other two don’t move cuz I’ve been to both ;P

If Ms. Hawkins knows how to predict where the island will be… then how come they only have 70 hours to get there? When the 70 hours are up, why can’t she just use her pendulum to make another prediction of where the island will be next? Is it like Halley’s Comet…. Only comes around every 75 years?

#317. Posted by: Skipper at February 22, 2009 9:19 AM

@→ 317. Posted by: Skipper
>If Ms. Hawkins knows how to predict where the island will be… then how come they only have 70 hours to get there? When the 70 hours are up, why can’t she just use her pendulum to make another prediction of where the island will be next?

Because the writers said 'Make it so'

>So the island is on one of these pockets located all over the world. Another pocket is in LA? And another in Tunisia? How come the last two pockets don’t move around in space/time?
see #257-mtncbn
Just adds more questions! Wouldn't the other pockets of strange matter be moving also. Oops, I forgot, it would be inconvenient for filming if the lamp post and church kept moving.

#318. Posted by: mtncbn at February 22, 2009 9:39 AM

How comes nobody is interrested in how John Locke comitted suicide???

#319. Posted by: Babush at February 22, 2009 9:50 AM

@ 319. Babush: The "how" doesn't really interest me. The "why" is more important. I think we'll find out both next week. Also, I assume from what we learned in meet Kevin Johnson that Locke could only successfully take his own life if the Island allowed it. If he really is dead at all...

#320. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 22, 2009 12:46 PM

Did we see wreckage of 316? I remember seeing the water bottles but that is all.

I think there are two separate events: The plane crashed; there was a froom. Or visa versa.

Now that I think about it, there might have been a froom with 815 too...it would explain how all those people weren't broken into little pieces after falling 20,000 ft (give or take a few feet) from the sky.

Certainly the image of Jack laying intact and none the worse for wear on the ground after the Ajira incident indicates the same thing happened with 815.

So it's versa visa...some of them were froomed and then the plane crashed. Some of them were plucked from the plane before impact to prevent injury/death.

Which leads me to believe that the reason Hawking/Ben wanted as many of the original 06 on that plane along with a dead body (and hopefully a pregnant woman) is because the mechanism that plucked them from the sky was scanning for a specific set...dead man, pregnant woman, prisoner, doctor, musician, hurleybird, and an island citizen. That island citizen with that specific set of people tells the mechanism, "This is the right group; bring them down".

The mechanism that plucks them from the sky doesn't need a complete set, it just needs to be certain that it is mostly the right people.
And it could be that Lapidus was an important part of the set that was missing on the 815 flight. Unlike his friend who was killed, Lapidus would have survived the crash unscathed.

So because Michael and Walt were missing as identifiers on the Ajira flight, Lapidus' presence was necessary to help the mechanism recognize that this was the right plane.

or not.

#321. Posted by: undaunted at February 22, 2009 12:49 PM

@295. Posted by: Plain Simple
re: Lost Untangled

Thanks for the link! That's kinda cool that they are willing to poke fun at themselves like that. Several folks who have dropped off of the show have critiqued that it takes itself way too seriously!

@296. Posted by: Plain Simple
re: Prisoner online

You should check out "hotspot shield".
Using a VPN connection, you should be able to view it.

@myself
re: Prisoner

Should anyone get a chance, I very highly recommend the Prisoner 40th anniversary special edition DVD release.
http://tinyurl.com/63zm9p

I just watched the documentary "Don't knock yourself out", which consists of interviews with surviving people who were involved with the production, as well as archival footage interviews of some of peeps that have passed on.

Patrick McGoohan did not partake. The doc provides great insight on how things came together, and really emphasizes what a difficult person McGoohan was to work with. I had no idea! Some of the stories are just crazy!

LoL! They also show the original Rover, which was a silly go-kart that looked like a pastry!

@297. Posted by: IslandHopper
re: "Grandad Ray is Jack!"

Agreed - fantastic casting job! I must admit the thought that they are the same crossed my mind when I first watched, but I really do not think this will be the case.

@303. Posted by: Lost in ca
re: "do the two islands skip together?"

Absolutely. There is no way that the Hydra station just gets left behind!

re: "why the beach camp is deserted??"

Because all of the peeps are jumping in time!

@305. Posted by: FenwayBen
re: "Biblical motifs"

Exactamungo! While I am a self professed agnostic who has issues with the religion I was brought up with, I recognize that the influence is everywhere...

@308. Posted by: FenwayBen
re: Battlestar Galactica

I thought for sure I'd find a blog here on filmfodder! :(

Found a site that has great episode synops/analysis:
http://tinyurl.com/dadmmc
Been reading up on the older ep's.

Sadly, no super great discussions in the comments section.

Much like I avoid ABC for Lost discussion, the same goes for Sci-fi for BSG!

re: Ulysses

Sounds like a bad college experience you had? It's ranked pretty high by others. Do you have to be Irish to fully appreciate/understand it?

@311. Posted by: Cecil Rose
re: "blog is getting bigger"

This is chump-change in comparison to "There's No Place Like Home, Part 1"
which has 840 comments! Boy were those silly times!

@312. Posted by: Judgemenot
re: "1st time poster"

Dude - I think you're mixing Cecil up with me!

One of the great things about this blog is the low amount of trolling and personal attacks. It certainly makes for a better atmosphere than a place where posters are on the attack.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

@316. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

Good work on being 316@316!!!

@317. Posted by: Skipper
re: "no cel phone Ben"

Perhaps he lost it in whatever scuffle he was involved in? Or maybe he is a security nut, and realizes that he could be tracked via a cel!

#322. Posted by: shikotee at February 22, 2009 1:09 PM

re: comments about Ben using a pay phone. Obviously you all have cells. Try and find a pay phone, I think there might be 2 or 3 left in my town, and last time I used one, it was $0.50.

#323. Posted by: mtncbn at February 22, 2009 1:25 PM

@ 322. shikotee: It is all a matter of personal opinion. No one (well, very few) dispute the importance of Ulysses in the Modernist movement, I just never much cared for Joyce as an author. I would much prefer to read E. M. Forster (who is honestly almost a Realist hold over), Kafka, Hemingway, D. H. Lawrence, Woolf, or Yeats. I'm not much of a Faulkner fan either...but then again I prefer 19th century literature to 20th century on the whole.

I found Ulysses a difficult read, others may disagree.

#324. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 22, 2009 1:32 PM

@324. Posted by: FenwayBen
re: "I found Ulysses a difficult read, others may disagree."

I hear ya! 10 years ago, I picked it up and gave it a go, but gave up rather quickly.

The language was indeed the issue. The use of colloquialisms made it very difficult to understand, especially when you are not privy to that type of language.

I'm sure it is great - I just didn't have the time and energy to do all the grunt work to understand it!

#325. Posted by: shikotee at February 22, 2009 1:49 PM

@FenwayBen
re: BSG

Did you get a chance to read the article that Dirk Benedict (aka original Starbuck, Faceman) wrote around a month ago?

http://tinyurl.com/b237t8

It is an interesting read. He comes across as a salty delusional S.O.B., but he does actually raise some interesting points about modern television programming. Some interesting comments left by viewers, both for and against his views...

#326. Posted by: shikotee at February 22, 2009 2:00 PM

"Men hand out cigars. Women “hand out” babies. And thus the world for thousands of years has gone’ round."

Wow, that Dirk Benedict sure is a charmer!

There are legions (well dozens) of fans of the original that refer to the new show as GINO--Galactica In Name Only. Personally I think they need to get over themselves. The original BSG was not some great work of fiction that should remain inviolate. It frankly was cheesy guilty pleasure entertainment. Benedict's cohort, the original Apollo (Richard Hatch) tried for years to get the series back on the air...and eventually took a role on the new BSG as Tom Zarek. One has to wonder how much of Benedict's rant is bitterness of not getting similarly cast, or whether he is really just an out of touch Thatcherite.

#327. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 22, 2009 2:29 PM

PS there is a BSG blog here at filmfodder, but no one seems to use it.

#328. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 22, 2009 2:30 PM

Last season Jack walked in on Kate on the end of a phone call. I think Jack was starting to go down hill at that point. There was some mention of the call being from Sawyer (not sure) Kate helping the people back on the island. Am I remembering this correctly? Given the way things have played out, doesn't seem like Kate could have spoken to Sawyer while off the island. Possibly it was Locke she was speaking to.

Guess I'm trying to figure out if they started a potential plot line then ended it and went in a different direction or if that phone call was indeed consistent with the current plot.

Would be appreciative of any insight y'all might have.

Thanks!

#329. Posted by: mike at February 22, 2009 2:44 PM

@ 329. mike: Jack never found out who Kate was on the phone with. She confessed that it was part of a promise she made to Sawyer (presumably he asked her when he whispered in her ear just before jumping out of the chopper). Most fans speculate she was speaking to Cassidy Phillips, who it was revealed in flash backs that Sawyer 1) worked a con on, and 2) got pregnant. Kate also met Cassidy while she was a fugitive.

Given Kate's reaction when Jack told her he expected her at the funeral, I doubt she was making secret plans with Locke. But hopefully we'll find out soon.

#330. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 22, 2009 4:01 PM

@ 320 The "how" doesn't really interest me. The "why" is more important.

Yes, but Locke knocking himself off is so 'un-Locke'. He's the one that wants to live life to it's fullest. So I can't imagine Locke offing himself. Even for the greater good, he wouldn't do it - would he?

Geographically - Most, if not all, islands in the Pacific are made from volcano's. Have we thought of this? Does it matter? Probably not. But then again......


#331. Posted by: dk at February 22, 2009 4:27 PM

Sorry I’m late to the party this season, but like any thoughtful guest, I come bearing gifts- a box of wine and 15 year old crackers.

I spent my off-season rewatching the first four seasons in best-guess chronological order (using the timeline in Lostpedia), and read all of Mac’s reviews and most of the blog comments along the way (I should have counted ‘em up- 10,000? 15,000?).

Watching them in that kind of concentrated fashion puts me firmly on the side of Lost equals the most ambitious attempt at mythic storytelling in the history of televison.

The Prisoner? Absolutely brilliant, but a 17 episode concept. Twin Peaks? Incredible first season run of 8 episodes, then pffhhtt in season 2. Carnivale? Another personal favorite, ran out of gas after season two and 24 total episodes. Lost when it finishes its run? Six years, 117 episodes, and stripped of commercials, 78 hours of incredibly intricate plot and character development.

49/welh: “Did this episode jump the Dharma shark?”

112/lostinminnesota: “horrible episode”

212/ealgumby: “ I see this epi as somewhat of an acknowledgement by the writing staff that they have pained themselves into a corner, and are trying to weasel out of it by invoking silliness”

In the words of our favorite groundskeeper, Carl Spacker, “I have to laugh”- not that everyone isn’t entitled to their opinion, but because you can go back to any of the Mac's reviews over the last three seasons and read a dozen or so similar comments for EVERY stinkin’ episode.

Over and over again, bloggers complain about production inconsistencies, plot holes, unanswered questions, etc., but rewatch the episodes from the start, and the answers are almost always revealed- but sometimes not until years later. (Why do the Others in season two have military equipment from the 1950’s? Because they took them from the military in 1954. Time passed from when the question was asked to when it was answered? 3 viewing years.)

Sorry for the long post- I actually believe TPTB have been extremely consistent in their storytelling approach, but I’ll make that case in other posts. But after rereading (most) of the old posts, we get frustrated because:

1. We are not initially presented with all of the facts, and so we have to guess at what’s missing, and those guesses are almost always more complicated than the actual answers.
2. Much of what we think we know about the "rules" of Lost comes from Ben, the consistent lier.
3. We are being manipulated in our understanding of “when” things are happening. Ealgumby hit on this in #280- and I think I’ve spotted several instances in past seasons to back up the whole character “looping” concept.

#332. Posted by: Mizzed and the Apologist Alpacas at February 22, 2009 4:58 PM

sometimes the problem is when we over-think what we see,hear or what is implied, the show creates many theories, sometimes even debates, its what keeps it interesting to me,lmao when some people thought there was a secret code in the subtitles in THIS PLACE IS DEATH, turns out they use italics on subtitles to let people with hearing difficulty know someone off camera is speaking, lol.........see! - overthinking

#333. Posted by: san at February 22, 2009 5:37 PM

@326, shikotee: "Did you get a chance to read the article that Dirk Benedict (aka original Starbuck, Faceman) wrote around a month ago?

http://tinyurl.com/b237t8"

Interesting read. The comments mention that it is an old piece from 2004 though, not last month.

I don't want to derail this Lost discussion into a BSG discussion (and I haven't seen any nuBSG since season 2 anyway; not because I didn't like it though), but I can sort of understand where Dirk Benedict is coming from, although I also disagree with a lot he says. I think it's a mistake to see the new show as having anything to do with the old one at all. It's just that they took the original premise into a completely new direction and to acknowledge the source they called it Battlestar Galactica.

It's like if in twenty years they do a new show about survivors of a plane crash on a mysterious island. They might go in a completely different direction with that idea than Lost has, but to acknowledge that it has been done before they might still call the show Lost and they might still call the characters Jack, Kate, and Sawyer.

#334. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 22, 2009 6:25 PM

I'm clearly caught in a time loop myself. Drift away from the board for awhile, and yet caught right back up in the whole science and faith debate.

212/ealgumby: "I took this to mean "we said we'd back everything up with 'science,' but now we can't, so here comes the waving of the hands!" Very slowly now, so the audience can follow ... BAM ... Abracadabra!"

88/vacc: "Perhaps Eloise isn't the only person named "Hawking" involved in this story. The other one being "Stephen"."

The idea that TPTB claimed everything would have a scientific basis in reality is an old saw that has been refuted several times over.

What D&C have said is that they want the science on this show to be believable enough that it is does not get in the way of the storytelling. Their science exists on the fringe of theoretical physics, in a populist "Brief History of Time" kind of way.

When we had this debate last year we linked several of the Popular Mechanics articles on physicists Richard Muller and Michio Kaku who both opined that the science presented was theoretically possible, but the energy necessary for what we have seen would be massive. What have we repeatedly seen about the island? It contains massive amounts of mysterious energy. I realize that doesn't pass the "sniff" test for those here with real scientific credentials, but for the vast majority of viewers who by now must realize they are watching a sci-fi series, it's probably good enough.

And as for faith:

190/hurling: "I like my sci-fi without overwhelming religious overtones."

252/LostedIt: "But my feeling is please don't "go there" with the religious stuff. It's a detractive inclusion IMHO."

134/Islandhoppwe: "not sure how much has been referenced from Joseph Campbell "A Hero with a Thousand Faces""

Ealgumby already posted a nice reply to this at #295, but he and I have disagreed in the past on whether the faith presented is p.c./non-offensive (ealgumby) or mythic (my take).

I won't repeat all of the Joseph Campbell allusions I referenced on my "Island is Mind of God" theory, which is still to be found on this website. But TPTB really couldn't be clearer that Lost exists at the intersection of "Man of Science, Man of Faith": theoretical, futuristic science AND ancient faith and mythology.

Mrs. Hawking has a lab under a church. Smokey lives under a temple. Eko's religious visions lead to Dharma Science stations. Locke builds a sweat lodge under the rafters of Eko's half-finished church. Virtually any and every interaction between Locke and Jack.

For a great image of this science/faith intersection, rewatch "Catch-22" from season 3 where Brother Campbell has an odd picture of himself and Mrs. Hawking on his desk. The photo isn't natural- the two characters appear to be poorly juxtaposed via PhotoShop, but this isn't an easter egg that can only be viewed via an internet high-res screen shot. The camera actually lingers on the photo for a couple of seconds- science and faith oddly together, but together nonetheless.

#335. Posted by: Mizzed and the Alpacas at February 22, 2009 6:43 PM

→ 300. Posted by: Plain
So if Christian never wore the watch and it was really his dad's watch, then perhaps that's why it wouldn't do for Jack. Hence the shoes.

Duh! Good point. Why didn't I think of that.

#336. Posted by: berkyo at February 22, 2009 7:11 PM

@ 319. Posted by: Babush

"How comes nobody is interested in how John Locke committed suicide???"

That scene when Locke picks up the rope and says 'It's Vincents' - had the resemblance of a noose, don't you think?
With the knowledge that he hung himself, I thought that was some creative symbolism by the writers.

#337. Posted by: Steve at February 22, 2009 7:17 PM

→ 321. Posted by: undaunted

I like your ides that an island person on board signals which group to import to the island. You are right, there must have been a foom for 815 too. Jack's surviving has always bothered me - And Iloveben also - because he should have broken something. Are we all sure that the dark stick next to Jack is a piece of Babmboo and not Ben's cudgel? Is that a word?

#338. Posted by: berkyo at February 22, 2009 7:19 PM

anyone else notice that Locke and Jack were dressed identically? It seemed that their ties were even the same. Just seemed weird.

#339. Posted by: Steve at February 22, 2009 7:22 PM

@ 338 berkyo cudgel doesnt sound dangerouse enough, (sounds like cuddle) we need a better name for that thing, like- death antenna hmm...

#340. Posted by: san at February 22, 2009 7:44 PM

@297. Posted by: IslandHopper
re: "Grandad Ray is Jack!"

This is not so. you cannot meet yourself. Universal rules. Paradox. i do not like it.

ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
→ 322. Posted by: shikotee
One of the great things about this blog is the low amount of trolling and personal attacks. It certainly makes for a better atmosphere than a place where posters are on the attack.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Yes! Hardly anyone here calls me stupid;)
or complains about my bad spelling.

and I like the streamline simple posting of this blog.
Other discussion sites have so much garbage in between the posts it takes forever and you have to switch pages every 7 posts or so.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
→ 331. Posted by: dkGeographically - Most, if not all, islands in the Pacific are made from volcano's. Have we thought of this? Does it matter? Probably not. But then again......

In the epi about young Ben. The teacher is explaining how a volcano works and the safety measures they take on the island. D&C, in a podcast, said that was very important and we'll see Annie again. The podcast came right after the epi.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
I want to make clear that I don't resent Lost using Christian analogies.

I think since one religion builds on another thru history, there are many similar lines of thinking. But I don't want the island to be God with a capital G. Or Jacob or Jack's granpop. There can be and I believe "is" something that is spiritual about life, the universe, etc that cannot be explained by religion and vice versa, much that science satisfies my needs that religion does not.

I hope my earlier protest against religion did not offend anyone. I grew up catholic and believe anyone can believe what ever he wants. ok by me.

#341. Posted by: berkyo at February 22, 2009 7:49 PM

@337, Steve: "That scene when Locke picks up the rope and says 'It's Vincents' - had the resemblance of a noose, don't you think?"

I had a similar thought at the time, but forgot all about it. Thanks for reminding me!

#342. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 22, 2009 8:03 PM

sorry for rapid posting here, kind of contradicting myself, but the only other thing that I noticed that was weird was...

Locke had facial stubble in the coffin.

Would somebody that is dead continue to grow facial hair?

#343. Posted by: Steve at February 22, 2009 8:22 PM

being a scotsman myself i am very proud of desmond walking across the floor with the pendulum swinging without looking where it was in the church scene, you need to have a crazy scottish guy in all tv shows.

#344. Posted by: san at February 22, 2009 8:42 PM

→ 343. Posted by: Steve re: Locke's facial hair.

Body hair and toe/finger nails continue to extend for a good while after death.

#345. Posted by: MorBid0 at February 22, 2009 10:18 PM

→ 159. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes: "I don't get it. If the island was moving all along as Hawking says then why did they need to turn the FDW to move it? When des turned the key did it stop the island from moving and force them to start it moving again?

And if it was moving all that time how were they able to come and go at will in a submarine following certain coordinates? Did they have windows of time they had to do this? And the Dharma drops? Did they work similarly to how the 05 got back? Did they calculate where the island would be and FOOM the food to the island out of a plane?"
****

The idea that the Dharma drops were scientifically calculated using the "Hawking" method is a great idea, but since the Swan crew could create supply drops at will by initiating the lockdowns, that would preclude any advanced planning on locating the island (the ongoing Dharma drops is still a big WTF? in my view).

Considering that the Others had no apparent problem shuttling supplies and new recruits to the island, it's hard to believe they consulted Hawking or the Lamp Post facility every single time Tom wanted to get off the island for a little R&R. And if forecasting the location of the island can be done at will, why did it take Widmore 20 years, according to Miles, to locate it last time?

The easier answer would be that the island was not physically moved by Ben or Locke, and that Hawking is being dishonest when she claims the island is "always" moving. A more reasonable explanation would be that turning the FDW moves the portal or window to the island, rather than the island itself. When Ben turned the FDW, it closed the window or access point, making the island invisible to the group on the helicopter and everybody else. Now, it's a matter of locating the current window (note Hawking also used the phrase "window") to allow access again to the island.

If this is correct, it eliminates the paradoxes created by the island physically moving through either time (bumping into itself) or space (bumping into something else). It also mean that Hawking and Ben are pressing a false sense of urgency on the Oceanic 6 in their efforts to manipulate them back to the island.

#346. Posted by: Mizzed and his merry alpacas at February 22, 2009 11:48 PM

→ 238. Posted by: Cecil Rose "Maybe the street theater is because the island is - just as John Locke insisted all along - a conscious entity and nobody, not Hawking (mother or son), Widmore, even Linus, knows exactly why it chooses some and not others"
*******
I've argued in the past for the island either being sentient or being controlled by some sort of consciousness.

What are the rules for time travel, according to TPTB? You can not physically travel through time but travel only across consciousness, in a Billy Pilgrim kind of way, and secondly, lack of a fixed constant across consciousness jumping makes your head go, as Jin would say, Boom.

The traveling group of Locke, Sawyer, Juliette, etc., can not be jumping through THEIR time because they are traveling outside of their own experiences and consciousness. Instead, it is the island (or some kind of uber-presence) that is jumping through its own memories (and per the "rules", NOT physically moving through time), and our group has been stuck surfing the wave.

The fact that all of the consciousness jumps were, as ealgumby has pointed out, in a defined period of 1954-2008 either means the uber-presence has memories confined to only that period of time, or that there are course corrections to be made during this period that require the presence of the Locke-Sawyer group.

Why are Richard and the others not caught on the same wave? Either because they are bonded to the island in some way we don't yet understand (Jacob's list), or they have a collective constant- perhaps Richard, Jacob, or the island itself. Juliette apparently was not on Jacob's list, and despite her three years on the island was never a true "other".

#347. Posted by: Mizzed and his merry alpacas at February 22, 2009 11:52 PM

@327. Posted by: FenwayBen
@334. Posted by: Plain Simple
re: "Dirk Benedict rant"

I'm pretty sure this piece is from a month ago. If you look at the comments, the oldest are from 4 weeks ago. My understanding is that this is not the first Dirk Benedict rant - he was very public about his dislike of the re-imaged show right after it premiered, and I believe this is what was referred to in the comments.

There certainly is a bitterness in what he says. It's like "the man" won't put him in shows.... because..... well...... because he's too manly?!?!?! The new Starbuck would whoop his arse in a second!

Likewise, despite disagreeing with several of his vantage points, he does make some interesting observations about the industry, and about the tastes of our times. I will mention a few of the stronger points, as they are not really specific to BSG in itself.

He wrote:
“Re-imagining”, they call it. “Un-imagining” is more accurate. To take what once was and twist it into what never was intended. So that a television show based on hope, spiritual faith and family is un-imagined and regurgitated as a show of despair, sexual violence and family dysfunction. To better reflect the times of ambiguous morality in which we live, one would assume."

For whatever reason, we are more drawn to more darker and cynical themes in our programming these days. Most of us justify this on the grounds that it is more "realistic". We love blurring the good and the bad - but what does that say about how we want to see the world?

He wrote:
"Movies and television shows are not made to enlighten or even entertain, but simply to make money. They will tell you it is (still) about story and character, but all it is really about is efficiency. About the Formula. Because Harvard Business School Technocrats run Hollywood and what Technocrats know is what must be removed from all business is Risk. And I tell you, life, real life, is all about risk. I tell you that without risk you have no creativity, no art. I tell you that without risk you have Remakes."

Can't disagree with him here. Look what happened to the guy who gave the green light for Lost. Before the show even premiered, he was sacked, because they felt he was out of line for approving a pilot episode that was so expensive! How crazy is that?

Everywhere you look now, all you see is remakes, which is a much safer bet than actually coming up with something new and original.

I've been posting lots about the original Prisoner series, and have mentioned that the remake will be released sometime this year. I'll obviously check it out, but I have to admit that I am also slightly apprehensive. They are cashing in on the cult-popularity of a unique series, that would not likely be approved for production if it actually originated in our present time.

After it is aired, am I going to be as salty as Dirk?

He continues:
"For you see, TV shows (and movies) are made and sold according to the same business formula as hamburger franchises. So that it matters not if it is the “best” hamburger, what matters is that you “think” it is the best. And you do “think” it is the best, because you have been told to; because all of your favorite celebrities are seen munching it on TV. The big money is not spent on making the hamburger or the television show, but on the marketing of the hamburger/show".

Sadly, marketing rules everything. All sorts of crap is made, and instead of working to fix this, it is easier and more profitable to give it a spit shine. This goes beyond movies/tv. Why build a better product (car, fridge, etc) - all you need to do is market it!

#348. Posted by: shikotee at February 22, 2009 11:54 PM

(last one, I promise)

→ 79. Posted by: LostedIt

"When Locke turned the NFDW, he "fixed" the island's skipping. The Losties are now stuck back in the time of Dharma prior to the purge. Based on the season opener, we see that Daniel is working in the mines. Based on this last episode, we can see that Jin is apparently working on patrol. They're all probably "stuck" back in the 70's and taking on various roles within the context of the island."
******
Lostpedia pegs the Ben-Annie childhood friendship events around 76-77 and Ben's first meeting with Alpert c. 1978, so our Losties will potentially run into the teenaged Ben Linus.

Charlotte Lewis was born in 1979 and she had to be 3-4 years old at a minimum to remember the Faraday conversation (c. 1982-83?). If the copyrighted Dharma orientation films are to be believed, Chang loses use of his left arm sometime in 1980. Since he has use of his arm in the Orchid construction scene with Faraday, that places that scene sometime around/before (but not after) those 1980 films. The fact that Jin and Faraday have jobs suggests a considerable amount of time has been spent stuck in this period.

Radzinsky's blast door map listed a Hanso Group inspection date of December 1981, so perhaps we will get to see Alvar Hanso soon as well.

In past seasons, a day off the island always equaled a day on the island. It took Jack and the rest of the Oceanic 6 three years to return to the island. Does that mean the Faraday group has spent three years in the late 70's/early 80's?

And if it will take either a turning of the FDW or some other major incident to return the Losties to present time, could this be the 1985 "incident" also referred to on the blast door map:

"Believed to have divested from project in 1985 following AH/MDG incident. Arrow station believe to have been abandoned due to AH/MDG incident of 1985. Multiple escape conducts blocked after incident"

Finally, there is no guarantee that turning the wheel gets you back to where you want to be. Critical events happened after the previously shown mid-1950's flashback: disposing of the H-Bomb, Widmore's (and Hawking?) exit from the island and the death of "Adam and Eve" in the cave. Is it possible that before our characters can return to their own time, they have to have their ticket punched once more in the past?

#349. Posted by: Mizzed and his merry alpacas at February 23, 2009 12:07 AM

@ Judgemenot - 312
1. Your psudonymn is ironic, since you're kinda asking for it.
2. I hate annoying breathers.

@ FenawayBen - 324
"I found Ulysses a difficult read, others may disagree."

What may seem difficult for some is most likley quite simple for Ben. For example--moving an island, appearing in Tunisia, and then getting out of a sticky situation with only a single death stick. *Sigh* =]

#350. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 23, 2009 12:29 AM

While I'll agree that there are many in Hollywood that are bound to risk-adverse, focus group-approved formulas, and that this has led to regurgitation of previous material at a higher rate than we previously saw, I don't feel that this is the enemy on BSG or even on Lost. I'd much rather see Slumdog Millionaire or the Curious Case of Benjamin Button (or pretty much anything by Danny Boyle or David Fincher---Alien3 withstanding) than go and see the new Friday the 13th, My Bloody Valentine, Last House On The Left, or TV shows like the new Knight Rider or Life on Mars. Often times a brilliant (or at least entertaining) idea is unimagined into some kind of formulistic shadow of its former self. But with BSG SciFi Channel started slowly only approving the miniseries, until it proved successful enough to assume the risk in making it a series. From what I know (and I don't follow it on line as closely as I do Lost), the suits at NBC Universal generally allow hit shows to develop on their own, and Ronald D Moore is the person responsible for the atmosphere and tone of BSG, not the suits.

Yes, Dirk, we know longer live in the Cold War, where we are always good and the Other is always bad. Life is more complex than that, in case you haven't noticed.

And Lost is much the same. Are the Others evil? Once we were led to believe so. Since them we've been told that they are the Good Guys...and we have seen them commit horrible acts mostly while claiming to stop others (Dharma, the US Army, who have you) from committing even more horrible acts against the Island.

The point of BSG (or Lost) is not as Mr. Benedict asserts that terrorist are right and the victims had it coming, but that if we are going to survive we need to put aside our hostilities, forgive past transgressions, and work together to build a future. Otherwise we will not survive. Or as Jack put it, "If we can't live together, we're gonna die alone."

#351. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 23, 2009 12:31 AM

In case someone was going to ask, I'm awake because of the Oscars. =]

Speaking of which, yay Slumdog!

Okay goodnight.

#352. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 23, 2009 12:31 AM

@ 350. ilovebenjaminlinusxx: Ben finds it difficult to not get the snot beaten out of him at least once a season. I find that quite easy.

#353. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 23, 2009 12:35 AM

@347, Mizzed and his merry alpacas: I like the idea of the time travel we've been seeing this season being the same kind of consciousness travel as before, only now the Island is doing the travelling. Then, perhaps, as others have speculated in the past, the O5 are the Island's constant. If they do not return in time (no pun intended) then the Island's mind goes "boom" and "god help us all".

@348, shikotee: "Can't disagree with him here. Look what happened to the guy who gave the green light for Lost. Before the show even premiered, he was sacked, because they felt he was out of line for approving a pilot episode that was so expensive! How crazy is that?

Everywhere you look now, all you see is remakes, which is a much safer bet than actually coming up with something new and original."

It's true that the tv business (as most, if not all, other businesses) is run by money. And always has been, also during Benedict's prime acting years. Nothing new there. Even the idea of remakes is not new. In the theater world old plays are still performed and, almost per definition, always at least slightly different from the previous time. And in the early years of television, I think a lot of the programming just consisted of theatre shows captured on camera. Stick with what you know... And even if a show is not strictly a remake, then more often than not it's a copy of another show with some slight chances at best. Only once in a while something comes along that's markedly different and which actually makes it all the way onto our screens. Usually it's either too different to get high enough ratings and dies away quickly, or sometimes it becomes very popular and soon is copied itself in dozens of other shows.


@349, Mizzed and his merry alpacas: "Radzinsky's blast door map listed a Hanso Group inspection date of December 1981, so perhaps we will get to see Alvar Hanso soon as well."

That would be cool. I think we need more info on Dharma and Hanso on the show and this seems the perfect time to deliver.

@349, Mizzed and his merry alpacas: "In past seasons, a day off the island always equaled a day on the island."

Did it? Have we been off island in the past seasons apart from flash backs and flash forwards? They didn't match up in time, did they?

@ 350, ilovebenjaminlinusxx: "What may seem difficult for some is most likley quite simple for Ben. For example--moving an island, appearing in Tunisia, and then getting out of a sticky situation with only a single death stick. *Sigh* =]"

What's this famous death stick about? Did I miss something or is memory loss kicking in?

@351, FenwayBen: "The point of BSG (or Lost) is not as Mr. Benedict asserts that terrorist are right and the victims had it coming, but that if we are going to survive we need to put aside our hostilities, forgive past transgressions, and work together to build a future. Otherwise we will not survive. Or as Jack put it, "If we can't live together, we're gonna die alone.""

Perhaps that's the point the producers of either show want to make, I don't know. But in general, I think the added value of a show with a little moral ambiguity as opposed to a straight good vs evil kind of story is that it forces you to think (ooo, stop right there, could that be the problem some people have with it?) about your own preconceptions of right and wrong and perhaps at the very least make you a bit more aware of them next time when you're passing out judgement in the real world. Dare to criticise your own beliefs and see if they hold up. That is a different kind of moral lesson than 'the old shows' use to have though. Instead of telling us "this is right, this is wrong", it asks us "what do you think is right, what do you think is wrong". There's something to say for both approaches. One has to have some moral basis (but one hopes that television is not the core foundation for it!), but it's good to shake it once in a while and see which parts are strong enough to support the building you've made upon this foundation and which parts come crashing down and need to be rethought and rebuilded.

#354. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 23, 2009 1:56 AM

→ 354. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 23, 2009 1:56 AM

@349, Mizzed and his merry alpacas: "In past seasons, a day off the island always equaled a day on the island."

Did it? Have we been off island in the past seasons apart from flash backs and flash forwards? They didn't match up in time, did they?

Ben showed Juliet a live feed of her sister and son (Julian) when he was about 2 1/2 yrs old. This is the only time I can remember that shows both on island and off was the same time period

#355. Posted by: BTLY at February 23, 2009 8:06 AM

@ Plain Simple - 354
"What's this famous death stick about? Did I miss something or is memory loss kicking in?"

It's come out on several occasions. On Lostpedia it's under "telescopic baton", which is kind of lame because "death stick" sounds so much better.

http://tinyurl.com/c53y7x

It seems to be Ben's primary weapon. He beat Sawyer with it, he hit Keamy with it, he knocked out a Bedouin in the Sahara desert with it (then stole his horse), then when he went to "pay a visit" to Widmore at his penthouse, he was prepared to use it on the doorman if he got in the way of his awesome plans.

Most of the appearances were in "The Shape of Things to Come" which in my opinion, is the best episode ever so far.

@ FenawayBen - 353
"@ 350. ilovebenjaminlinusxx: Ben finds it difficult to not get the snot beaten out of him at least once a season. I find that quite easy."

Touche.

#356. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 23, 2009 8:54 AM

@298 berkyo mentioned:

>I just watched the webisodes again. They are all enlightening but the last one is The Watch.

Actually, that was the first one - they're just listed in reverse order on the ABC website. The last one was Christian sending Vincent to go wake Jack up. We've always assumed that was after the 815 crash. But now maybe it as a 'future mobisode' about the 316 crash. Of course, there was no sign of Vincent in last week's ep, so maybe not.

o~~~~~~~~

@322 shikotee said:

>re: Battlestar Galactica

>I thought for sure I'd find a blog here on filmfodder! :(

I'll bet mac would love to have a BSG reviewer. Are you volunteering?

#357. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 23, 2009 10:00 AM

shikotee,

Oops, my mistake, looks like there already is a BSG blog here, just click on TV up above, then "Drama", the "BSG".

Bet that reviewer would love more people commenting.

#358. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 23, 2009 10:03 AM

I highly recommend (of course) TV Fodder's BSG blog, run by longtime Fodder contributor Perrin Stewart (http://is.gd/kxNX). As a huge fan of that show, I often use the blog to fill in the gaps.

#359. Posted by: mac at February 23, 2009 10:07 AM

@349, Mizzed and his merry alpacas: "In past seasons, a day off the island always equaled a day on the island."

354/Plain Simple: "Did it? Have we been off island in the past seasons apart from flash backs and flash forwards? They didn't match up in time, did they?"

Initially, there were a lot of ideas on this forum that time on the island progressed at a different speed than time off-island, but that theory was put to rest when the Oceanic 6 were rescued.

The 100 or so days the survivors spent on the island from the initial plane crash to the Oceanic 6 rescue match up perfectly with the off-island perception of how long they've been missing, as shown in the Oceanic press conference scenes in "TNPLH".

The initial time flashes the Sawyer-Locke group surfed through could have not lasted more than a few days from their perspective- they rarely had time to eat or rest.

Since we're playing with time distortion all bets are off, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Sawyer-Jin group has been stuck in the late 70's for three years, matching the off-island time for the Oceanic 6.

#360. Posted by: Mizzed at February 23, 2009 10:08 AM

The one thing revealed in this episode that sticks in my craw is the "confirmation" that the island moves. I am inclined to reject the moving island explanation.

When Hawking says the island moves, I think she is either lying or speaking metaphorically.

I am able to buy into the "special properties" concept... magnetic something or other emanating from beneath the earth's surface or some such thing. The man who spoke to Rose in Australia says Ayer's Rock sits above one of those spots.

But if the island is moving geographically then are we to understand that the properties don't emanate from beneath the surface of the earth, but from within the island (or Ayer's Rock) itself?

A floating island? Where did it come from? It's not volcanic. Have we ever seen a caldera on the island? Did it break off from a larger land mass? Is it the remnant of an asteroid that hit the ocean a bazillion years ago, then floated to the surface and vegetation grew on it and... I dunno.

And remember that it is not one island, but two that are moving geographically from one location to another location. And if they are actually moving, wouldn't satellite images from space spot them?

So now I have two questions that nag at me:
1. wtf...a moving island?
2. Why would someone plant the wreckage of a plane some 4000 miles in the opposite direction of the starting point of the flight plan?

I suppose if the islands could move, then so could the planted wreckage. Goofy stuff.

#361. Posted by: undaunted at February 23, 2009 10:49 AM

238. Posted by: Cecil Rose "Maybe the street theater is because the island is - just as John Locke insisted all along - a conscious entity and nobody, not Hawking (mother or son), Widmore, even Linus, knows exactly why it chooses some and not others"

Precisely!

I agree that the people presented to us as the authorities of all things island are feeling their way through the dark.

I think that is why the proxie idea was presented...they have no idea why it happens, so they're trying to duplicate the situation with the hope it will happen again.

And I think Lapidus piloting the Ajira flight is a really big deal. I wonder if it his absence on 815 that caused the need for a "do-over".

#362. Posted by: undaunted at February 23, 2009 11:53 AM

Do we know "When" Sawyer, Juliette, Miles, Daniel, Charlotte and Jin were when Locke turned the FDW? We had a FOOM after Locke went down the well, and the well disappeared. Do we have any idea if the FOOMs continued to happen while Locke was talking to Christian in the chamber?

Trying to figure out the on/off island time frame. The FDW gets turned and the island people go to the 70s and stop FOOMing for 3 years? So Jack et al left LA in 2008 but it is the 70s when they get to the island? 3 years after the last FOOM?

#363. Posted by: Rudy at February 23, 2009 1:40 PM

Ok, it's taken three days to get through all the posts and I'm still not sure if I'm repeating anyone. Sorry in advance if I am.

@355. Posted by: BTLY - mentions Juliet viewing a video of her sister and nephew in 'real time.' Mikhail was able to obtain data on flight 815 so that had to take place in real time also. Did we have any indication that the island was in a different time and place before Desmond turned the key?

Mikhail said the beacons are down - that's why they can leave but not return to the island. If the the island actually moved, did the underwater hatch go with it. I thought everyone decided that things in the air didn't travel with the island. We know Daniel and the boat people stayed. I wonder if the hatch went too. I don't think it's a floating island but I have played around with that idea. I think the island is not moving physically. That's why the reference to the magic show. It's all illusions.

I agree that Desmond will come by boat not by air.

I also think that Kate is on a mission to get Sawyer home to Clementine.

Only Jack, knowing he was going to crash into an island, would wear a suit!!!

Nice twist would be Ben 'saving' Desmond from Widmore's men.

Anyone wonder why John was supposed to leave the island and not Ben? If you can't come back, why was John being banished from the island? Besides, Ben didn't know for sure that the O6 had escaped when he turned the wheel. Was it always that you couldn't come back or just because you can't find the island anymore because the beacons are off. I thought the purpose in moving the island was to get away from the freighter people. If I recall correctly, Ben told Jack he'd better rush if he had plans on taking the helicopter to the frieghter. Ben knew he couldn't come back. Where's the missing piece of this puzzle that tells Ben he needs to return with the O6? How did Mrs. Hawking's find Ben and why? I feel like I'm missing a whole season!

Maybe the unknown man following Jack onto the plane is a plant for Widmore. If Sun is working with Widmore, she could have contacted him and told him the plans. She's smart enough to cover all the bases.

@186. Posted by: berkyo - You know, My uncle was a John but we called him Jack. I wonder if the 3:16 refers to Jack and not Locke?????

Jack is also healer. Another biblical connection with the play on names?

Also, wasn't it revealed back in S1 that the numbers don't mean anything?

#364. Posted by: pebspostal at February 23, 2009 1:56 PM

@361 undaunted wondered:

>A floating island? Where did it come from? It's not volcanic. Have we ever seen a caldera on the island? Did it break off from a larger land mass?


We do have the Dharma-teacher's class illustration of a volcano "like the one on this island". The long shots of Bennsylvania at the begiinning of Season 2 looked sort of caldera-ish. Plus, of course, we know the show is actually shot on Oahu which is a volcanic island, like all the Hawaiian islands, so that really is how volcanic islands look.

That class-demo has always been, to me, the 'shotgun over the mantlepiece', a piece of stage dressing that will come into play at some point.

#365. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 23, 2009 3:08 PM

Has anyone ever done an anagram search for "Jeremy Bentham"? The PTB would never put an odd name together like this without it meaning something, especially when the character already has a perfectly good name and no reason to change it. Any ideas???

#366. Posted by: Gail at February 23, 2009 3:26 PM

@366 Gail asked:

>Has anyone ever done an anagram search for "Jeremy Bentham"? The PTB would never put an odd name together like this without it meaning something, especially when the character already has a perfectly good name and no reason to change it. Any ideas???

I think Darlton were making an allusion to the real Jeremy Bentham, an English philosopher and politician who decided he's serve on his college board of governors even after his death, to which end he specified that his body be stuffed and placed in attendance at board meetings. I believe he votes "YES" to every question.

#367. Posted by: Cecil at February 23, 2009 3:46 PM

RNMiL? Recognize!!

#368. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 23, 2009 3:59 PM

@350. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
re: "simple for Ben"

Much like it is easy for Ben to manipulate poor ilovebenjaminlinusxx and her unwavering obsessive adulation for him! ;)

He can do no wrong! One can only wait for the day when he will finally cross that line and betray her, thus prompting her metamorphosis into: "ihatebenjaminlinusxx". Or so the prophecy goes.....

@351. Posted by: FenwayBen
re: "remakes"

Good points! Not certain about the networks allowing total free reign even on Lost, but it is clear that they have been much more lax than usual.

It is funny reading the comments to Dirk's piece. I find it pretty shocking how many folk so blindly stand by his side completely. The again, in a post-911 world, don't we all get occasionally naustalgic for the good old days?

@354. Posted by: Plain Simple
re: "remakes"

Sure - it is a tale as old as time, but it seems to such the bigger trend over the last decade. It would be interesting to see what the stats are for remakes for each year for movies and TV.

Good point mentioning theater, though to be fair, this has been done for different reasons. Live performance productions involve so many different people, and it is virtually impossible to have "exact" replicas. With that said, of course all sorts of different interpretations can be thrown into the mold.

I think one of the main draws for remakes is the feeling that we now have the technology to make movies "better" with improved CGI, etc. But more often then not, we'll have clear cash-grab attempts that are pathetic. I still can't understand why a remake of "Psycho" was ever allowed, considering what a fantastic film the Hitchcock original was.

re: "moral ambiguity"

We are naturally drawn to a challenge - isn't that why we love Lost? The problem then lies within how much life imitates art. To what degree does indulging in moral ambiguity, in fact make you morally ambiguous in the real world, at the least on an unconscious level of some sort?

@358. Posted by: Cecil Rose
@359. Posted by: mac
re: "BGS @filmfodder"

Many thanks for pointing this out! I had done a quick lazy search, but did not find it originally for some reason. From what I have read so far, it seems awesome!

Read over the last episode reviews, and realized that I had missed a considerable amount of information! Looking forward to reading through it all!

361. Posted by: undaunted
re: "moving island"

I'm with you, brutha! Hawking has been inhaling too much Dharma incense! A physically moving island of that size just seems whacked!

If the island is really moving, I would imagine that Hydra and Main island are connected underneath the water.

#369. Posted by: shikotee at February 23, 2009 4:09 PM

As always, I'm coming back from a long weekend and a long day at work to find a TON of posts. Here's some responses:

@285: ealgumby - Thanks, I appreciate the perspective. I did go off a little bit more than necessary perhaps.

@290: shikotee "For people who feel the creeps on the religious themes, did you feel this way with the Echo back-story?"

Actually, that instance was of an individual and it tied tightly to his back story. When it starts becoming a prevalent theme to the entire show is when I start getting uncomfortable. That being said, ealgumby did give a bit of comfort to my "creeps". I eagerly await the remaining episodes of this season and next to see if my feelings are unfounded.

@293: berkyo - In regard to the dead doctor who appeared to float to the island and arrive at a different time, I think it was discussed quite a bit here in the group. The idea floated (sorry for the pun) about was that, much as the sky changed from night to day and back as they flew to/from the ship, there seemed to be a point made on the show that time on the ship and time on the island weren't 100% in sync. We never came to a conclusion exactly how to reconcile this (one consensus was that it was based on the angle that you came/went to/from the island), and now the whole "island is jumping through time" thing blows that little discrepancy out of the water by comparison. But in terms of the conversation this week where I postulated that dead bodies don't travel through time with the jumps, I agree that is yet another anomaly but I think it's a different one following a different rule set than the island jumping rule set we're dealing with at the moment.

@308: FenwayBen - Regarding Aslan being a representation of Jesus, I've read that now a few times on this post this week. Didn't know that before.

I'm only at 356 and when I hit 'refresh' I'm sure to get banged with a bunch more but I'm running out of time so I'm clicking Post.

#370. Posted by: LostedIt at February 23, 2009 4:15 PM

Regarding Ben at the docks on the payphone. I would like to think that he did pay Penny a visit but I find it highly unlikely that Desmond and Penny set sail from England and made it to California on time. I mean, think about it...Did they cross the Atlantic and hit the Panama Canal or did they Sail east via the Indian and Pacific Oceans....Just does not make any sense to me. Also, was that not the same dock that Ben and Jack met up with Kate and Sun the previous night? If so, why would Ben return to the same location just to make a call over a pay phone?

#371. Posted by: Michaelmvp at February 23, 2009 4:27 PM

Holy cowbell....leave on Friday and come back to this blog on Monday with hundreds of posts to read.

@ 81. lovelost: Um, no one was surprised that Mrs. Hawking was Daniel's mother because it was pretty freaking obvious from the moment he told Desmond to find his mother, and tried to tell him that she has a different surname. Or maybe that was just me.→ 283. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 21, 2009 12:13 AM

FenwayBen, I was referring to the others in the room with Mrs Hawking. THEY did not know she was Dan's mum. Obviously, my inference was not obvious.

#372. Posted by: lovelost at February 23, 2009 4:50 PM

@371:Michaelmvp Re: Ben

I have a suspicion that the reason behind Ben getting his a$$ knocked the hell out has to do with the box he took out from the safe in his hotel room. Eps. 4

#373. Posted by: mozart is not deaf. at February 23, 2009 4:50 PM

@371 Michaelmvp asked:

>Regarding Ben at the docks on the payphone. I would like to think that he did pay Penny a visit but I find it highly unlikely that Desmond and Penny set sail from England and made it to California on time.

Sail or not depends on the time relation between Des's visit to Widmore and his showing up in LA, which I'm not sure we know.

One thing we do know is, by whatever means, Penny told Des she and little Charlie would come with him. So she's there - maybe on a boat, maybe not.

#374. Posted by: Cecil at February 23, 2009 4:56 PM

The point of Des & Penny sailing is that they don't become part of the system, in return, not be found by daddy Whidmore. This has me questioning the means of travel for Des & family.

#375. Posted by: mozart is not deaf. at February 23, 2009 5:13 PM

→ 369. Posted by: shikotee "If the island is really moving, I would imagine that Hydra and Main island are connected underneath the water."

If the island is actually moving, I'll eat one of my beloved alpacas. But to your point, there is an area around the island, including the Hydra station and the Looking Glass station which always stays connected to the island (the snow globe concept).

Inside the snow globe, there are no time distortion effects- so they can go fishing, sail Desmond's boat, travel back and forth to the Hydra, etc, with no consciousness jumping or sickness.

Michael damaged the freighter's engines about 50 miles off-shore, and as the crew on the boat started to become infected with "time sickness", that might represent the outer edges of the snow globe.

→ 364. Posted by: pebspostal: "Anyone wonder why John was supposed to leave the island and not Ben? If you can't come back, why was John being banished from the island? Besides, Ben didn't know for sure that the O6 had escaped when he turned the wheel...I thought the purpose in moving the island was to get away from the freighter people. If I recall correctly, Ben told Jack he'd better rush if he had plans on taking the helicopter to the frieghter. Ben knew he couldn't come back. Where's the missing piece of this puzzle that tells Ben he needs to return with the O6?"
****
The only person who said that turning the wheel means you can not return is Ben, who lies about everything.

Ben's motivations always revolve around Ben. It's unlikely he cared either way about the fate of the Oceanic 6 when he turned the FDW.

Widmore took the battle to Ben with Keamy's crew and the murder of Alex. The turning of the wheel represents Ben going on the offensive against Widmore, including the potential killing of Penny. Turning the FDW had the side benefit of making the island impossible to find in the short term, also serving Ben's interests.

I doubt he would walk away from his island leadership position if he truly believed he could never reclaim it. His departing message to Locke that John was now the leader of the Others and would be privy to their secrets was most likely also a lie, and yet another manipulation of Mr. Locke.

Christian tells Locke he must turn the wheel to stop the time displacement, but it also serves the purpose of beginning a chain of events that lead to the return of the Oceanic 6. While he acknowledges John will have to sacrifice himself, he says nothing about John not coming back in some form.

Does anybody really believe Locke will be dead for most of the last two seasons?

One of the steps in the Joseph Campbell monomyth cycle is for the hero to appear dead, but then be reborn (or transformed) with greater powers or abilities, newly prepared to face some great challenge.

Locke may not be the same living, breathing person, but I believe he definitely has a role in the show's resolution.

#376. Posted by: Mizzed and the Alpacas at February 23, 2009 6:50 PM

@232. mozart is not deaf
Gumbo One thing that bugs me in particular.
Most of the people that left the island with Charles Widmore(in the 50's?) are probably dead and cremated.

-- begging your pardon, we still don't know how Widmore left the island and who accompanied him, so how can you assert that most of those who left with him are probably dead and cremated?

? 237. Posted by: freckles
--Maybe the giant four-toed statue is really of the WereRabbit. :-D

? 242. Posted by: Cecil Rose
Michael Gross as Jacob? Would Michael J Fox make a guest appearance as Alex Keaton in another Economist episode?

? 247. Posted by: ealgumby
ring of magic Jacob ashes...maybe this is the ring she had Desmond give to Penny

? 334. Posted by: Plain Simple
It's like if in twenty years they do a new show about survivors of a plane crash on a mysterious island. They might go in a completely different direction with that idea than Lost has...

Wasn't there a show about the survivors of a crash on a mysterious island before?...Gilligan's Island!


? 343. Posted by: Steve
the only other thing that I noticed that was weird was...Locke had facial stubble in the coffin.

The "only" other weird thing?...do you mean besides the whole FOOMing thing, Sayid showing up in custody, Kate leaving Aaron somewhere, showing up at Jack's place in the wee hours to bump uglies, Hurley getting out of jail free and showing up for the plane with a comic book and guitar, and Ben being all bruised up and no one giving it a second thought or bothering to even ask him a thing about it?

To me...this show is all about weird...but in a good way.

#377. Posted by: Gumbo at February 23, 2009 6:51 PM

@369, shikotee: "If the island is really moving, I would imagine that Hydra and Main island are connected underneath the water."

There was a cable going down, wasn't there?

@370, LostedIt: "@308: FenwayBen - Regarding Aslan being a representation of Jesus, I've read that now a few times on this post this week. Didn't know that before."

Really, to me that was always a bit too obvious and "subtlety be damned" smack right in your face. But perhaps if you don't have a christian background it all becomes less obvious.

@374, Cecil: "Sail or not depends on the time relation between Des's visit to Widmore and his showing up in LA, which I'm not sure we know."

Exactly, we don't know when the scenes of Desmond in Oxford took place exactly in relation to the O6 scenes in this episode. We know that, according to Penny, when Desmond got the Faraday-memory he had been off the island for 3 years (but in colloquial speech that can mean anything from 2.5 to 3.5 years really), so that places it around the same time as the other O6 scenes, but there is really no way that I can see at this moment to pinpoint it specifically to the week or day accurately.

#378. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 23, 2009 6:59 PM

@368. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man

RNMiNL=Red Neck Man is NOT last

#379. Posted by: mtncbn at February 23, 2009 7:04 PM

@274 ealgumby
OMG--love that idea that Juliet shoots at herself on the other boat. That would be the bomb!
(in addition to Jughead I guess!)

#380. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 23, 2009 7:09 PM

When Ben turned the FDW, he was under the impression that Jacob had told Locke to move the island. Locke never mentioned to Ben that Christian was the one in the cabin that gave the order.
We have discussed, and I think it's probable that Christian and Jacob aren't on the same side.

Ben actually seems to want Locke as island leader. Christian does not.

#381. Posted by: mtncbn at February 23, 2009 7:25 PM

If the losties (maybe we should just call them the morons) ever talked to each other (what else do you do for 108 days?) Locke might have at least known Jack's dad's name. He didn't have a clue-'who is your son?'.
Daniel might have known the date if Locke or Sawyer spoke up while skipping.
And scores more of times a little communication would have changed the whole plot. Just another case of lack of realism.

#382. Posted by: mtncbn at February 23, 2009 7:39 PM

@ 367. Cecil: I believe he is listed as "present but not voting", although rumor has it he breaks any tie votes...

@ 372. lovelost: Sorry, I miss understood! Clearly the characters were taking Mrs. Hawking's advice to stop thinking about how ridiculous this all is! ;)

#383. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 23, 2009 8:05 PM

@274: ealgumby, @380: Crispy Seaplanes - Wonder if they'll finally have an episode where one of the Losties actually meets one of their own group from a different time, or even themselves (Charlotte and Desmond don't count in my book)!

@381: mtncbn - It's really up in the air who's on whose side. Christian really could be a proxy for Jacob or he could have captured/imprisoned Jacob in some way. In the latter case, that would tie in to when he said "Help me" to Locke. Then again, is Jacob on the good side or the bad side?

On a different subject, here's the latest thing that's bothering me. I know it's already been discussed but how is that Charles Widmore somehow knows who Eleanor Hawking is and where she resides, but yet somehow doesn't know that she knows how to get to the island? Let's assume for a minute he actually knows, because I cannot see how he can't, although it certainly is possible. Why is it he hasn't been able to get back to the island for 20 years? Was he shunned by the island and/or its inhabitants and now has no way to get back because the island won't let him? It would seem based on the people on the freighter that he actually does know where the island is but somehow he can't go there himself.

Gotta run, the spouse is calling.

#384. Posted by: LostedIt at February 23, 2009 10:09 PM

Love the numerous earlier references to Kate bringing in the 4th Generation Shepard.

I'm thinking through this... and damn, that was a fine Pirate Beard that Jack grew.

#385. Posted by: IslandHopper at February 23, 2009 10:26 PM

@377:Gumbo

My assertion only comes from your presumable implication in post #227:
If Widmore knows where Hawking is and presumably knows what she is doing there, why can't he utilize that knowledge of the windows to get back to the island he so desperately wants to get back under his control?

If this is the case ,which you mentioned. Perhaps, like the O5, Widmore needs to enter the island the same way he left the island. This is where my assertion of Widmore comes into play. If he did leave w/someone else they may be dead and, or cremated thus not being able to recreate his exit from the island.

Just a thought.

#386. Posted by: mozart is not deaf at February 23, 2009 11:21 PM

@382, mtncbn: I agree that the Losties are not very talkative to each other, but I don't think the examples you mention would have had a very big impact on the overall plot.

@384, LostedIt: "In the latter case, that would tie in to when he said "Help me" to Locke. Then again, is Jacob on the good side or the bad side?"

Some people here have speculated that Jacob = Locke, Jack, Jack's grandpa, Christian, Richard... take your pick. But if Jacob is actually a real person, and not an apparition or anything, then why was it such a big deal when Locke could hear his "help me"?

@382, mtncbn: I agree that the Losties are not very talkative to each other, but I don't think the examples you mention would have had a very big impact on the overall plot.

@384, LostedIt: "On a different subject, here's the latest thing that's bothering me. I know it's already been discussed but how is that Charles Widmore somehow knows who Eleanor Hawking is and where she resides, but yet somehow doesn't know that she knows how to get to the island? "

I guess that depends on whether you take Hawking's explanation at face value. Because if it is true what she says, then not only do you need to know the window to go to the island, but you also need to have the right group of people, or the island won't let you come near. Perhaps the island doesn't like poor Charles anymore. And perhaps the reason Daniel, Charlotte, Miles and Lapidus were chosen by Abbadon to go on the freighter mission is because they are the right group of people. Without them on the freighter, the island wouldn't have allowed the freighter to find it. It seems the island can be easily fooled, unless it wanted Keamy and co there as well. Who knows what unwanted guests Ajira 316 brought along.

#387. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 23, 2009 11:58 PM

A very good observation from this reviewer, http://tinyurl.com/bt9jox, about recreating the crash: "Jack was in much the same suit that he wore the first time, and he was carrying a hand-written letter, like Sawyer did. " I don't think anyone here mentioned Sawyer's letter before.

#388. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 24, 2009 2:05 AM

Steve #252

That's interesting...the plane lands
(or crashes) on Alcatraz? Some folks grab bottles of Ajira water and paddle over to the main island.

Pilot extraordinaire Lapidus managed to bring the helicopter in safely against all odds, he'll bring the plane in against all odds too.

Interesting possibility.

#389. Posted by: undaunted at February 24, 2009 8:00 AM

mtncbn
"When Ben turned the FDW, he was under the impression that Jacob had told Locke to move the island. Locke never mentioned to Ben that Christian was the one in the cabin that gave the order.
We have discussed, and I think it's probable that Christian and Jacob aren't on the same side.

Ben actually seems to want Locke as island leader. Christian does not."

You're right; Ben knows for a fact that Locke can hear Jacob. Locke thinks Christian is Jacob. "Jacob said we have to move the island." Bens thinks, "Okey dokey then, move the island we will."

All indications are that Christian has been tryng to get/keep Locke off Island and Ben has been tryng to get/keep Locke on Island.

The manifestation of Christian is a bad bad bad guy. Our strongest proof of that is that he separated Claire from Aaron.

#390. Posted by: undaunted at February 24, 2009 8:25 AM

*****SPOILER*****
Just saw a Sneak Peeks of this weeks episode on eonline.
There's a shot that looks like Locke lying on his back in the Tunisian desert and a clip of a scene between Locke and Widmore. John's in a hospital bed.
Widmore says he wants to help Locks get everyone back. So why would his aims seem to be in alignment with Ben's--getting everyone back--unless he's lying...

#391. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 24, 2009 9:24 AM

@376 Mizzed and the Alpacas sed:

>Christian tells Locke he must turn the wheel to stop the time displacement

Did Christian ever really say this or did we just infer it?

o~~~~~~~

@377 Gumbo:

>@242. Posted by: Cecil Rose
>Michael Gross as Jacob? Would Michael J Fox make a guest appearance as Alex Keaton in another Economist episode?

That was my guess, based on the microsecond glimpse in outline the first time we 'saw' Jacob in the cabin. The forehead and nose was what convinced me, though others guessed Kris Kristofferson and Dennis Hopper for much the same reason.

o~~~~~~~~

@378 Plain Simple simple said:

>>@369, shikotee: "If the island is really moving, I would imagine that Hydra and Main island are connected underneath the water."

>There was a cable going down, wasn't there?

That was to the Looking Glass underwater station, though we can certainly infer another similar cable going to the Hydra's island.

o~~~~~~~

@380 Crispy Seaplanes chortled:


>OMG--love that idea that Juliet shoots at herself on the other boat. That would be the bomb! (in addition to Jughead I guess!)

Hey, I already posted the idea that the Losties make their own bows and arrows to defend themselves, then launch a flamiing arrow attack at a sound - from *themselves* - in which Neal "Frogurt" dies.

o~~~~~~

And with this post, there goes Jughead's season 5 record.

o~~~~~~

Oh, and new "House" review's up. House is on a drug (Not Vicodin).

#392. Posted by: Cecil at February 24, 2009 9:28 AM

*****SPOILER*****
Oh yeah and there's a clip of Locke with Abaddon too!
Is it Wednesday yet??????????

#393. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 24, 2009 9:29 AM

Wow! I don't check posts for a few days and there are 393 posts!?! And my friends say I'm obsessive about Lost...geesh.

Oh, and by the way, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but...hee, hee, just kidding. I'll have to catch up after my house is clean. One more day!!

#394. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 24, 2009 10:03 AM

@ 392. Posted by: Cecil
"And with this post, there goes Jughead's season 5 record"

Hey - did we ever figure out why the episode was called jughead? :-O

Soooooo happy the Pres is on tonite and not tomorrow nite!

#395. Posted by: Steve at February 24, 2009 10:11 AM

@392. Posted by: Cecil

I chortled???
I do remember noow you making that hypothesis about Frogurt and the flaming arrows. It would be funny if that type of thing were to get a fairly major player to bite the dust.
I don't know if that's what happened with the flaming arrows though. I seem to remember the others using flaming arrows in one of their early attacks on the beach.

Oh yeah and didn't Judgemenot predict you would be responsible for braking Jughead's record? :) snicker snicker chortle...

#396. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 24, 2009 11:02 AM

@392, Cecil: "That was to the Looking Glass underwater station, though we can certainly infer another similar cable going to the Hydra's island."

O yeah, thanks. I mixed up the Hydra and the Looking Glass.

#397. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 24, 2009 11:38 AM

@→ 388. Posted by: Plain Simple
A very good observation from this reviewer, http://tinyurl.com/bt9jox,

Thanks, an interesting site. It has Firefly reviews!! It was a one season series and a movie that were both great!! A western, space, future movie that worked.

#398. Posted by: mtncbn at February 24, 2009 11:50 AM

When Ben and Locke went to see Jacob, Ben could see the "real" Jacob correct? And Locke only saw a flash of him when the lantern went on. So Locke doesn't know what the "real" Jacob looks like.

I've always thought Christian is an evil manifestation, especially off island for Jack. What puts a hole in my theory is that he leads Jack to the water in Season 1 and the Mobisode when he sent Vincent to wake Jack up after the first crash.

#399. Posted by: Rudy at February 24, 2009 11:58 AM

@380 Crispy Seaplanes and
@274 ealgumby
...the idea that Juliet shoots at herself on the other boat....

I like the idea, but I don't think it floats... If in a upcoming episode, Juliet gets on an outrigger and paddles out to sea, and she sees another outrigger out on the water, and proceeds to chase it, wouldn't she know that she's (Juliet Past) on the other outrigger, and therefor NOT shoot at a boat she knows she is on?

#400. Posted by: scoosh at February 24, 2009 12:13 PM

@400. Posted by: scoosh

Good point. I have a feeling that the item I posted about with my *****SPOILER***** warning (#222)probably will be related to who Juliet was shooting at. Though you're right--it's probably not herself she's shooting.

#401. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 24, 2009 12:24 PM

@ 381, 382 mtncbn

1. I thought that Christian did want Locke as an island leader. He made it clear that turning the NFDW was Locke's job, not Ben's. Remember? "Since when has listening to Benjamin Linus gotten you anywhere worth a damn."

2. Even if Locke knew that Jack's dad was named Christian, he probably wouldn't recognize his face. Christian introduce himself, if I remember correctly. And Jack doesn't seem like the kind of son who carries around his dad's picture in his wallet - ha.

__________________

I like the idea that the island has a conciousness of some kind. It just makes sense considering all we've seen since season 1. If this is true, it's interesting to note that human attempts to harness the conciousness/power of the island and use it for monetary gain (or other type of gain), for example Dharma, US military experiments, etc have resulted in lots of problems for everyone involved.

_____________________


Regarding the Christian references in LOST, I think everyone has been so gracious and logical on this topic. Many people bristle when religion is mentioned, and I think it's an indication of the level of intelligence and fairness of those who post here that the discussion so far has been so rational and kind.

Being a Christian myself, I like enjoy the nods to Biblical stories, etc. Just adds another element of interest to me, but it's important to remember not to take it too seriously. It's just a show, after all. Granted, it's the best show ever... but still. :)

I do understand why many people resent Christianity, considering the hypocricy and arrogance of so many people who have claimed to represent God or carry out horriffic acts in His name. I am sorry this is true.

______________________

Ealgumby - thanks. Glad someone else noticed the discrepancy between the Jack/Kate interaction the 1st and second time. Maybe we'll find out why.

#402. Posted by: Christin at February 24, 2009 2:15 PM

mizzed and Ealgumby. I think I am coing around to accept your theory of the island in a time loop and I like the idea of the island consciousness jumping too. Makes more sense to me.I have to think about this some more though.

#403. Posted by: berkyo at February 24, 2009 2:20 PM

392. Posted by: Cecil, in response to my earlier statement >Christian tells Locke he must turn the wheel to stop the time displacement<

"Did Christian ever really say this or did we just infer it?"

Cecil- you are correct, sir.

CHRISTIAN: "There’s a woman living in Los Angeles. Now once you get all your friends together - and it must be all of them - every one who left - and once you’ve persuaded them to join you – this woman will tell you exactly how to come back."

The focus was on the return of the Oceanic 6, not stopping the time flashes.

364. Posted by: pebspostal: "Also, wasn't it revealed back in S1 that the numbers don't mean anything?"

The specific numbers don't mean anything, but were chosen b/c of personal references from TPTB, who never anticipated that legions of obsessive Lost fans would invest hours trying to decipher mathematical equations and relationships involving these numbers.

Part of the original concept (according to D&C) was "borrowed" from the movie Pi, about a mathematical code hidden in the Old Testament that could be used to forecast everything from the financial markets to the end of the world.

The numbers in Lost were never intended to really be explained, but were supposed to be left mysterious and to reinforce the concept of destiny that runs throughout the series.

After there was an outcry of "what do the numbers mean" after season 1, they created the Valenzetti equation to explain the numbers, which they inserted into the on-line Lost Experience. In the show itself, though, they've continued to leave the numbers (like Smokey and the nature of the island itself) open for interpretation.

#404. Posted by: Mizzed at February 24, 2009 2:21 PM

I often use the blog to fill in the gaps.
→ 359. Posted by: mac

Gaps? what gaps? I can't keep up with this.

#405. Posted by: berkyo at February 24, 2009 2:32 PM

**MILD SPOILERS POSSIBLY AHEAD***

I would call these hints, rather than spoilers, but fair warning for those who want no indication of where future epis may head.

Bits and pieces from recent D&C podcasts- full transcripts are available on the Lostpedia transcript portal.

CARLTON: is the island moving or are the guys on the island moving?

DAMON: That’s an excellent, excellent, excellent question. The answer is probably a little bit of both. I’m not an astrophysicist; I’m not familiar with Swartzelf wormholes...
****************

DAMON: Alright here’s my question for you. So obviously Sawyer and Juliet go running off after this arrow attack and we also have Faraday, Miles and Charlotte, so what happened to Rose and Bernard and the rest, are we to understand they’ve all been massacred?

CARLTON: I think sadly a lot died. It was a very effective flaming arrow attack and I think a lot of them went down however Rose and Bernard I think are probably safe and if the rules are constant then they would have traveled wherever Sawyer and Juliet, but obviously they’re just not in the same geographic space, but I would venture to say they’re probably in the same time.
*******************

Damon Lindelof: Does anyone care how Kelvin actually ended up in the hatch?

Carlton Cuse: We were literally having this conversation in other day and we were saying “If we actually reference Kelvin would anybody even remember who Kelvin was?”

Damon Lindelof: We were talking about the purge - and this just gives you a little bit of a sense of where we’re going in Season 5 - the purge is gonna be something that comes up, and when it happened. And we know when it happened but we were asking Gregg Nations, our trusty script supervisor and keeper of all things continuity, you know, “What have we told the audience about when the purge happened?” and he goes “Well, all they really have to go on is that Kelvin recruited Sayid during the first Gulf War and yet somehow managed to get to the Island and to push the button in the hatch”. So the assumption would be that the Dharma Initiative was still up and running in the early nineties. And we said “That’s the assumption.” But is that the truth, Carlton? Is it possible that the Dharma Initiative recruited somebody after the purge?

Carlton Cuse: It is entirely possible that they recruited somebody after the purge.
******************
Carlton Cuse: what is translation of the hieroglyphs found in the frozen donkey wheel cave?

Damon Lindelof: I think that… the thing about hieroglyphs is they do not translate into actual words or sentences. They’re pictograms, so they translate into concepts and many of the hieroglyphs down in the donkey wheel have to do with Resurrection.

Carlton Cuse: Yes.

Damon Lindelof: And we found them basically very often in sort of the tombs of Pharaohs. The idea that Pharaohs were entombed with all their worldly possessions, so they could return but… we’re setting up a resurrection theme
*************

Damon Lindelof: Young Ben start to see his dead mother on the Island. He runs into Richard Alpert. A friendship is struck up. And then we don’t know anything beyond that. And so he became the leader of the Others. Is it possible, Carlton, that this season we will start to fill some of the missing gaps between that moment and the moment that we come to know Ben is the leader of the Others?

Carlton Cuse: Yes! I hope so.
**************

Carlton Cuse: During that therapy session with Juliet and Harper Harper mentions that Juliet looks like her. I was wondering if this was a reference to either Ben’s mother or Ben’s childhood friend Annie both of whom share resemblance with Juliete.

Damon Lindelof: That’s a very insightful question and I think hopefully you’ll be getting the answer before the series is over but you’re asking exactly the right question. My therapy says that basically your mother is the only one who counts in so you keep sort of trying to replicate that through your life.

#406. Posted by: Mizzed at February 24, 2009 2:32 PM

→ 373. Posted by: mozart

has to do with the box he took out from the safe in his hotel room. Eps. 4

WOW, I forgot all about that!Unless it was the package sent to Sun. With the gun?

#407. Posted by: berkyo at February 24, 2009 2:44 PM

DAAAMMMM!!! :).....i log off the blog friday afternoon and log back on monday morning and it takes me two days to get through all the post. this blog rocks, that's for dam sure!!!

just a few observations since everyone has practically covered everything else.

#190 hurling: i like your idea that christian was suppose to be on flight 815. i too immediately thought it when the story of the o6 returning to the island began to be revealed if locke is to be resurrected when he returns to the island, it is exactly what happened to christian when his body was returned. i almost gave up hope that i would be the only one who thought this.

#351 fenwayben: i liked alien 3. certaintly the first two were much much better but i liked it for the most part.

#283 fenwayben: your response to any r and the comparison of jack and sawyer, my response, depends on how great the sex is. :)

question? could all the people ben had sayid murder be widmore's group/friends that he left the island with?? maybe this is why ben viewed them as a threat, their knowledge of the island and they were helping widmore try and get back to the island/exploit it??

judging by the previews for tomorrows episode, it seems ben was with locke when he hung himself. i believe jack ask ben why would locke hang himself and ben's response was he didnt know. if that is in fact ben with locke, clearly another of many lies ben has told. what i dont understand is why locke chooses death by hanging,a painful way to die. why not scarf(pun intended) down a hand full of pills and go quietly in your sleep??

#408. Posted by: tiffani at February 24, 2009 3:48 PM

Is there any way Smokey could be magnetic fibers of some kind like on an etch-a-sketch.
Since it can disappear as well as grab you I was wondering if it attached to magnetic properties in the body. Many believe magnets are a source of healing.

Personal note for @404. Posted by: Mizzed

Thank you for a very clear outline of things I am missing. Everyone I knew that watched this show has stopped and I find I go around talking to myself trying to sort things out.

Since everyone is mentioning other TV shows, did anyone happen to watch Push Nevada back in 2001. It didn't get the ratings it needed because of 9/11. That was the same kind of show but I think it was only suppose to run for a year. It had a monetary reward attached to it for the person that could solve the mystery.

#409. Posted by: pebspostal at February 24, 2009 4:12 PM

Here's an idea - what if the ending of this show or some of the answers are decided by what is posted on this and all other blogs? If you think about it, this is probably the most interactive show EVER. Websites have popped up for the Dharma Initiative, Oceanic, Ajira.

What if the writers have a general idea of what is going to happen but we are filling in all the details?

#410. Posted by: Paulo at February 24, 2009 5:42 PM

@ 408. tiffani:

Fair enough.

#411. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 24, 2009 5:52 PM

@398, mtncbn; "Thanks, an interesting site. It has Firefly reviews!! It was a one season series and a movie that were both great!! A western, space, future movie that worked."

You're welcome. And you don't have to convince me of Firefly's quality (although the movie Serenity was perhaps a bit disappointing, though still very entertaining). :) Now if only Dollhouse could have had the same quality. Thusfar not though, imo.

@406, Mizzed wrote that Damon said "I’m not familiar with Swartzelf wormholes... "

I'm not trying to be the nitpicking scientist here, but could he have said "Schwarzschild" instead of "Swartzelf"? Because it's not so surprising that he isn't familar with Swarzelf wormholes, who is? :)

And perhaps it's good to mention that what Darlton are doing in these transcripts is answering questions from listeners. Otherwise it would be quite odd, they asking themselves these questions. :)

@408, tiffani: "i too immediately thought it when the story of the o6 returning to the island began to be revealed if locke is to be resurrected when he returns to the island, it is exactly what happened to christian when his body was returned. i almost gave up hope that i would be the only one who thought this."

I think you'll find that talk of Locke's resurrection has come up over and over again in many posts this season.

@409, pebspostal: "Is there any way Smokey could be magnetic fibers of some kind like on an etch-a-sketch.
Since it can disappear as well as grab you I was wondering if it attached to magnetic properties in the body. Many believe magnets are a source of healing."

Having an ache in your arm? Try Smokey, our new magnetic amputator. No arm, no foul!

@410, Paulo: It that's the case, then where's my paycheck! :)

#412. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 24, 2009 6:11 PM

The Air Marshall lady that was with Sayid looked so familiar because she's from New Amsterdam. That was actually a really good show, until it got cancelled.

Mystery solved... for me at least.

#413. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 24, 2009 6:53 PM

air marshal lady was also in the film "the namesake", a very good little indie film by the director of "mississippi masala". she's very beautiful. the 'condolences' guy i remember from the movie "three kings" in which he plays an iraqi soldier who tortures mark wahlberg.
mildly interesting similarity.

#414. Posted by: flegma at February 24, 2009 7:31 PM

IIWY? . . .

#415. Posted by: davidrh at February 24, 2009 7:43 PM

@-cecil i told you this blog was getting bigger lol

#416. Posted by: san at February 24, 2009 7:44 PM

I know it's getting late when we start identifying actors and their previous roles.

Next thing you know somebody will point out which crew guy who was second gaffer on the Hannah Montana movie . . .

#417. Posted by: davidrh at February 24, 2009 7:45 PM

Actually I'm guessing.

Was there a Hannah Montana movie?

(I think his name is Clint. He's the guy with the beer belly, the "Get your lovin' here" t-shirt, and the plaid CAT hat.)

#418. Posted by: davidrh at February 24, 2009 7:48 PM

Clint must also have a mullet as an "Ode to Billy Ray" Hee, hee.

#419. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 24, 2009 8:16 PM

Oh, and FYI...the new Hannah Montana movie opens in early March. I have two pre-teen daughters so unfortunately I will probably be there opening night.

#420. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 24, 2009 8:18 PM

@413, ilovebenjaminlinusxx and 414, flegma: She was also in The Lone Gunmen (and one X-Files episode) I think? Playing Yves Adele Harlow, the thief with the Lee Harvey Oswald anagram name. :) (Let the 'anagram of previous roles of current Lost actors' games begin.)

#421. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 24, 2009 8:32 PM

Mira Furlan, our beloved Danielle Rousseau, had a guest role on this week's episode of NCIS, playing, what else, a paranoid woman living alone in a remote hideaway, slinging a rifle. Poor typecast Mira.

#422. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 24, 2009 9:05 PM

44 - shikotee
18 - Plain Simple
16 - cecil rose
15 - ilovebenjaminlinusxx
13 - ealgumby
13 - berkyo
12 - vacc
10 - mtncbn
09 - Mizzed
08 - davidrh

#423. Posted by: Top Contributors at February 24, 2009 10:19 PM

422. Posted by: Scooby-Dude


Ah yes, but at least she had on makeup and was "artistic" . . . (In fact, it took me about 6 seconds to figure out who the heck she was . . )

And to top it off - A "hired gun" was on her trail to shoot her . .

Typecasting, I guess!

#424. Posted by: davidrh at February 24, 2009 10:27 PM

16!!!

shikotee looks like the winner... maybe I'll catch up. Probably not. That would take a lot of effort that will only result in annoying people.

Anyway, I don't like Miley Cyrus, but I like Hannah Montana.

... I LOVE the Jonas Brothers. Most of my friends make fun of me for this, others agree. Hey, at least they're not as old as Ben or House! See! I'm not ONLY attracted to dysfunctional older men!!!

YEAH I FORGOT, Air Marshall lady was in the namesake!!! Wow, she's everywhere. Well not EVERYWHERE, but a lot of familiar places.

RANDOM FACT OF THE DAY FROM ILBLxx:
Today I was asked if I was Itallian... by an Itallian... I don't look Itallian... I have friends that are Itallian... But I'm not Itallian... Now I feel like I'm spelling Itallian wrong.... Itallian.

[I'm not saying that looking Itallian is a bad thing... just saying I was never asked that before... by someone who was being completely serious].

Gaah... now I have to write a US Gov and Politics essay. =[

#425. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 24, 2009 10:51 PM

I just realized that entire post was irrelevant in every way possible.

Now I will write something LOST. related.

Oh wait, nevermind... Ben was in my last post! [Briefly].

#426. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 24, 2009 10:53 PM

RE: Widmore..I don't think CAN go back to the Island or else he will end up in the same condition as Charlotte..

I did not see the previews for tomorrow night, but do we know Ben makes it to the island? Is he seen on the island with the 316 crew..

I immediately thought of smokey and the noise it makes when the 316ers started to see the light on the plane...

I have enjoyed Lost from the beginning and try not to delve into the "this is scientifically impossible" mindset..
It is like the line from a Wallace Stevens Poem:
"There was so much that was real that was not real at all..He wanted to feel the same way over and over again..

#427. Posted by: UsetheSchwartz at February 24, 2009 10:54 PM

I forgot who said it, or said it forst, but I kinda agree with the Christian vs. Jacob theory. AND the theory about Christian coming back alive when he gets back to the island, as will Locke (maybe).

#428. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 25, 2009 12:15 AM

@ → 423. Posted by: Top Contributors

"44 - shikotee
18 - Plain Simple
16 - cecil rose
15 - ilovebenjaminlinusxx
13 - ealgumby
13 - berkyo
12 - vacc
10 - mtncbn
09 - Mizzed
08 - davidrh"

Hey, where's the love?!? I have 15 posts too! Well, make that 16 now...

#429. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 25, 2009 12:33 AM

@422, Scooby-Dude: "Mira Furlan, our beloved Danielle Rousseau, had a guest role on this week's episode of NCIS, playing, what else, a paranoid woman living alone in a remote hideaway, slinging a rifle. Poor typecast Mira."

Well typecasting...she didn't play a cocooning alien on NCIS did she?

@423, Top Contributors: Well, won't you look at that. I had no idea I would be second on that list.

@425, Ilovebenjaminlinusxx: "[I'm not saying that looking Itallian is a bad thing... just saying I was never asked that before... by someone who was being completely serious]."

Italians can be completely serious? :) (mmm, it would be more fun to ask my Italian friends that...)

@427, UsetheSchwartz: "RE: Widmore..I don't think CAN go back to the Island or else he will end up in the same condition as Charlotte.."

That might very well be the case, if the Island is still FOOMing, if not, then why would anyone get the Red Pain?

@33, davidrh: "I think this will be a week where we can sit back and see how many postings will occur dealing only with speculation or redundancy. Basically only two mysteries here - Why did they all show up and who beat up Ben. Because there sure isn’t much to talk about otherwise."

That didn't stop us, almost 400 posts ago. :)

#430. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 25, 2009 12:52 AM

TGIW!!

#431. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 25, 2009 2:44 AM


RANDOM FACT OF THE DAY FROM ILBLxx:
Today I was asked if I was Itallian... by an Itallian... I don't look Itallian... I have friends that are Itallian... But I'm not Itallian... Now I feel like I'm spelling Itallian wrong.... Itallian.

Your instincts are good, you were spelling Italian wrong. lol

#432. Posted by: undaunted at February 25, 2009 8:04 AM

@409: pebspostal "Is there any way Smokey could be magnetic fibers of some kind like on an etch-a-sketch."

I like it! Smokey is the leftover black stuff from all of those etch-a-sketches we and everyone else had as kids!

#433. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 9:00 AM

@423: Top Contributors - Funny, I had 12 before theses last two posts and never made it to the list. Who's compiling these stats?

#434. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 9:20 AM

Always with the quantity...never with the quality...

In addition to number of posts, it'd be interesting to see a word count.

And Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon for regulars or guest stars. Or, since it's LOST we're yapping about...Six Degrees of Kevin Durand (aka Martin Keamey).

#435. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 25, 2009 10:14 AM

#413 ilovebenjaminlinusxx: i too thought new amsterdam was a good show and was very disappointed that fox cancelled it, as they have done with several very good quality shows and no real explanation as to why. :(

#412 plain simple: i know lockes resurrection has been discussed throught the blog, i guess what i was trying to say was how similar it is to christian's resurrection, which in the beginning we werent sure that's what it in fact was. my questions is, will we get christian's story as to why he had to die and why he had to be returned to the island. or was it just a coincendence that he was on 815 which happened to be a window for the island?

hope that made sense.

#436. Posted by: tiffani at February 25, 2009 10:15 AM

From now on I'm going to number my posts ;)

Post # 15 for episode 316, season 5, stardate 43923.2, 10:25am, captain's blog.

@436: tiffani - It's an interesting question. How many of the Losties were on that flight for any reason other than they were supposed to be there? Perhaps one of the themes of the show is that freewill is limited to certain constraints and that each of them may or may not have always ended up on that flight for the reasons we see but they always were destined to end up on that flight. We've seen numerous instances of individual Losties being steered or outright ordered to get on that particular flight. One could argue that the show really is about people fulfilling their roles regardless of the means by which those roles are filled. Even the need to recreate the original circumstances of flight 815 on flight 316 would seem to fall within this "course correction" theme in that they needed to get back but their original ticket had already been proverbially punched so they needed to find a way to re-use that "ticket" in order to reverse the issue(s) they had created by leaving.


#437. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 10:30 AM

@425 ilovebenjaminlinusxx posted:

>RANDOM FACT OF THE DAY FROM ILBLxx:
Today I was asked if I was Itallian... by an Itallian... I don't look Itallian... I have friends that are Itallian... But I'm not Itallian... Now I feel like I'm spelling Itallian wrong.... Itallian.

It's those xx's. They look very Italian.

#438. Posted by: Cecil at February 25, 2009 11:44 AM

@436, tiffani: "hope that made sense."

Yes, I think it did. It's a good point. I guess once we see how Locke will be resurrected, if at all ---a couple of weeks ago I would have probably added "and since everyone here thinks he will be, the writers probably go for something else--- but this season the 'obvious, but wacky' explanations that are offered on the blog seem the right ones (Hawkings=Dan's mom, Jones=Widmore, Locke=dead Christian proxy)--- then we will have a better idea of what all the other walking dead are. I'm not convinced yet that Christian is really a resurrected body being brought to life. If that's the case, then how did he end up on the freighter with Michael and in the cave with Locke and in many more weird places. And he seems to vanish just as quickly as he appears. If he were 'just' a normal person (only one that happened to be dead once upon a time), then how would you explain that?

@437, LostedIt: Free will is a fickle bitch. How can one ever decide if their actions are guided by free will or fate? Now what we've seen on the show is that people who didn't know each other, but were in a lot of cases previously connected in at least the slightest of manners ended up on a plane together. We also now that a lot of this came about through steering from other people. Fate, coincidence, manipulation from off Island people, time loop? Everything is possible and there's no way to say for sure. Although everything we've seen since definitely shows that there are off Island people with the capabilities to pull something like this off. The on Island Others seemed quite surprised when Oceanic 815 fell from the sky though, so they were probably not involved in the planning, but it seems Hawking doesn't tell Ben everything. And it could also have been Widmore. And there is always the not-so-far fetched possibility that Ben was not surprised at all, but just kept the other Others in the dark.

Where was I going with this...? O yeah, I don't think there's any way to settle the question whether something is fate or free will. Definitely not in real life, everything that happens just happens, no way to detect any metaphysical causality there. On a tv show there might be a way by having a character explain things (but then, how does this character know, and on a show like Lost: do we trust what the character says?), or by having some uberbeing come in and explain. My money is that in Lost that will go with the first option: we will hear the points of view on things from different characters, but each of them has his or her own motivations and ideas that lead to these views and we'll be left wondering and debating forever more whose views are right on this issue. Or, I do feel I have to add, even if this is an issue at all. If there is no way to discern the difference between fate and free will, perhaps we should even call it a difference?

#439. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 25, 2009 12:21 PM

→ 410. Posted by: Paulo
What if the writers have a general idea of what is going to happen but we are filling in all the details?

I would If I were the writers. I think we're pretty good;)

#440. Posted by: berkyo at February 25, 2009 12:38 PM

So, what if Kate is proxy for Claire, not because she's pregnant, but because she's willing to give Aaron up.

Also the air marshall with Said looks a lot like (former cop) Anna Lucia don't ya think?

What does all this proxy business mean? and does it really have anything to do with getting back to the island? Time will tell... or will it?

#441. Posted by: PartyofSix at February 25, 2009 12:57 PM

@439: Plain Simple - nice paraphrase of Ben's quote!

It think we agree in general on the same principles, however your description was a bit more abstract of the same points I was making.

Either way, one thing I would propose at this point in the conversation is that one could argue that there are individuals off of the island that apparently can see or have seen the future and are/were trying to ensure that the basic facts of the future remain unchanged (ie: fate) even if the small details tend to vary from what they have seen. How else do we explain the fact that a number of these individual steered or outright told various Losties that they needed to be on flight 815?

Fate, indeed, may be a fickly bitch as Ben said, but it also seems to be flexible only to a certain point. Is that because certain changes would dramatically alter the future as opposed to others? And if so, so what? The future is supposed to be undecided, with infinite possible outcomes for a given branch in the timeline. Lost seems to be postulating that perhaps there is a guideline or pathway forward through/into the future that is supposed to be preserved as much as possible (with slight variations acceptable within the "infinite possibilities" principle) in order to keep...what? The stability of the planet intact? The future within a predictable range? To what end? That, my friends, would seem to be a possible avenue through which the rest of this season and the final season might travel or even hold as a central theme.

#442. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 1:32 PM

Oh, BTW, that was post #16 for episode 316, season 5, etc. etc. etc... Oh, darn, and this is post #17. ;)

#443. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 1:35 PM

@376. Posted by: Mizzed and the Alpacas
@378. Posted by: Plain Simple
@392. Posted by: Cecil

re: "Hydra Isle + Main Isle"

...and the main island's connected to the... Hydra Station! And the Hydra station's connected to the... (Well - You get the point!)

Sure - I don't disagree with the snow globe concept. This is roughly the "range" of whatever the phenomenon actually as - a radius of sorts.

But, I was also thinking that the two islands are connected underwater. I wasn't thinking along the lines of a cable, though that very well might be there as well. I was thinking that while there is water separating the two, that it wouldn't be as deep in that area as it would be in other parts of the ocean. So if the water level of the ocean dropped, say 30 feet (random number), it would be visible as one much larger island.

@386. Posted by: mozart
re: Widmore and the Isle

Do we really know that Widmore actually wants to return to the island? We know he wants to find it. He might have good reason to never return, though still want to have it in his control.

My spider senses can't help but tingle and think that Faraday is the love child of Widmore and Hawking. This would explain how he would still have contact info for her, and maybe why Faraday is part of his crew.

@387. Posted by: Plain Simple
re: "Jacob saying - Help Me!"

Not enough info to spec why he said this. I imagine this will be more clear once they reveal more about the temple, the ghost's, etc.

Should Jacob turn out to actually be one person, Locke is where my money is. This would explain why Jacob would not show himself fully to Locke, and would use someone else for communication (Christian Shep). For me, this fits in with my understanding of the time travel rules in this show - ie you can't meet yourself and tell yourself what to do!

@423. Posted by: Top Contributors
re: quantity of posts

"Iiit's a raaace! I hope I wiiin!"
(Any "Ratrace" fans out there?)
[which is essentially a remake of "It's a mad mad mad mad world!"]

@429. Posted by: FenwayBen
@434. Posted by: LostedIt
re: what about me and my posts?

Dude(s)! - You've been snubbed.
We demand a recount!

@434. Posted by: LostedIt
re: "Always with the quantity...never with the quality..."

Hey! I'd like to think that my posts went all over the spectrum... ;)

#444. Posted by: shikotee at February 25, 2009 2:54 PM

@444: shikotee - I'm sure you see the little winks I keep putting after I list what post number I'm up to. I agree that quality is more important than quantity. I'd even postulate that the number of replies a given post gets is an even better indication of the winner (hah! it's all about winning! ;) ) (xkcd.com had a recent comic where they discussed how DO you include an emoticon inside parentheses?) if we're basing on the quality of posts.

That being said, post #18 baby!!!!!!! ;)

#445. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 3:11 PM

5 more hours!!!!

#446. Posted by: Lost Is Found at February 25, 2009 3:55 PM

@446-lost is found just a few hours fot you to wait, another 2 days till i get it in the uk, maybe i will move to the usa just to see lost on a wednesday, it would be worth it.

#447. Posted by: san at February 25, 2009 4:08 PM

@447 san posted:

>...nother 2 days till i get it in the uk, maybe i will move to the usa just to see lost on a wednesday, it would be worth it.

But on the other hand, you guys got "Rome" a full year before we did.

#448. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 25, 2009 4:20 PM

I will take LOST than ROME in a heartbeat.

#449. Posted by: Lost Is FOund at February 25, 2009 4:28 PM

@ undaunted - 432
"Your instincts are good, you were spelling Italian wrong. lol"

LMAOOO!!! My bad!!!

@ Cecil Rose - 438
"It's those xx's. They look very Italian."

Ahahahaha.

...That would have worked if they guessed it from "ILBLxx", but they guessed it from my face.

I think this is post #18 for me? I don't know anymore. I'm going to try to win next time. We should do, "most refered to" also.

... I think ealgumby would win that... or in this case, shikotee may win both.

#450. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 25, 2009 4:46 PM

@ 448 cecil, just shows you why its bad to live on an island, maybe i am out of sync with normal time

#451. Posted by: san at February 25, 2009 4:49 PM

@448 san:

Well, Desmond did say if was a *magical* island.

As I'm sure Alfred Lord Tennis-Ball would agree.

#452. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 25, 2009 5:02 PM

This is one of the best sites I know for intelligent postulation about Lost. Doc Jensen and crew are really good at connecting dots I never knew existed. Oh, and one of those postulations is that Jack is Jacob. See why:

http://tinyurl.com/d5rzp4

#453. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 5:16 PM

Prediction:
Season 5 begins with Dr. Chang recording the Dharma video. Season 5 will end with Dr. Chang recording the Dharma video.

Widmore and Mrs. Hawking:
I agree with all the posters that it's strange that Widmore knew Mrs. Hawking and didn't go back to the island, if he in fact did want to go back to the island, but how do WE know that HE knows Mrs. Hawking knows how to find the island...know what I'm sayin'?

Props!
Have to give some props here. Way back in July, SamFin posted the following:

If the Island went back in the past, wouldn't the Crazy French Lady be alive again?

Bravo!

Taking Credit for My Big Salad:
The whole two islands being connected idea is the reason I posted a comment way back at #36 that perhaps flight 316 landed on the runway the Others were building on Alcatraz. Like Cecil Rose's "shotgun over the mantlepiece" comment from a few days ago, I have to believe TPTB showed us the runway because it was going to have some significance later in the story. I'm not particularly concerned how the two islands are connected, but I do believe they are connected somehow – otherwise, as someone pointed out way back at the end of season 4, the helicopter with the O-6 would have seen Alcatraz instead of just water, the whole inside the radius thing. Unless you want to believe there are TWO islands that are disappearing/moving through time/space, but that doesn't make much sense, so I have to believe they're connected. Maybe the next project after project runway is going to be an island Chunnel.

@324. Posted by: freckles at February 18, 2009
One of the Monster's sound effects is the receipt printer from a NYC taxi cab

I live in NYC and I will never ever take a cab, due to the fact that they are all really Smokey in disguise.

#454. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 25, 2009 5:42 PM

@ → 453. Posted by: LostedIt
"This is one of the best sites I know for intelligent postulation about Lost. Doc Jensen and crew are really good at connecting dots I never knew existed. Oh, and one of those postulations is that Jack is Jacob. See why:

http://tinyurl.com/d5rzp4"

I haven't gotten to the intelligent postulation yet, but the 'waaaaaaaaaaalt' clip is PRICELESS...

#455. Posted by: LostinVT at February 25, 2009 6:28 PM

For all you fans of "The Prisoner", I will offer you either a moment of mental relaxation, or perhaps a moment of mental turmoil!

Of course, you may recall that in the final episode "Fall Out", there was a particular song that was played, and sung by #48...

Enjoy...

http://tinyurl.com/bb7fe2

#456. Posted by: shikotee at February 25, 2009 6:31 PM

@454 Scooby-Dude theorized:

>Taking Credit for My Big Salad:
The whole two islands being connected idea is the reason I posted a comment way back at #36 that perhaps flight 316 landed on the runway the Others were building on Alcatraz. Like Cecil Rose's "shotgun over the mantlepiece" comment from a few days ago, I have to believe TPTB showed us the runway because it was going to have some significance later in the story.

Maybe. I think the whole runway thing was justified in Juliet's remark to Sawyer "Why for the aliens to land on, of course...".

But seriously, that runway was only barely begun, and being made with not-very-high-quality manual labor, shortly after which the Others lost a good part of their best workers in the abortive raid on the beach camp. Hard to believe they could have completed it.

o~~~~~

New York City! (Somebody get a rope...)
[g]

#457. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 25, 2009 6:33 PM

@409: pebspostal "Is there any way Smokey could be magnetic fibers of some kind like on an etch-a-sketch

so basically what you're saying is that the way to defeat smokey is to turn him upside down and shake him really, really hard????

Seriously, science is not my strong suit. Would magnetic fibers fit in with the electronic barrier that smokey could not pass? possibly de-magnetize him?

#458. Posted by: surefoot at February 25, 2009 6:56 PM

This is one of the best sites I know for intelligent postulation about Lost.
453. Posted by: LostedIt

I will take LOST than ROME in a heartbeat.
449. Posted by: Lost Is FOund

In defense of “Rome”, there WERE more naked people in Rome!

How’s that for “intelligent postulation”?

#459. Posted by: davidrh at February 25, 2009 7:16 PM

almost 00.30 in scotland now, i will be in bed while you lucky people are watching the new epi. i look forward to reading all the posts when i see the new 1 - see you all on friday! enjoy.

#460. Posted by: san at February 25, 2009 7:20 PM

@457 Cecil
Hard to believe they could have completed the runway.

Good point, unless Alpert formed a new construction crew from the Temple folks and completed it during the time the six were off the island. But I'm not sure how Lapidus or, if he FOOMED, his copilot would know where the runway was or that there even was a runway. Maybe they'll use the runway instead for a Hurley vs. Jin Dharma van drag race.

That makes me think: wouldn't it be great if they do indeed end up during Dharma time and Sawyer and Roger are sitting by a Dharma van drinking beer and Sawyer says "cheers" and dings Roger in the head again.

#461. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 25, 2009 7:21 PM

@461. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

LoL!
Would he call him "Skeletor"?

#462. Posted by: shikotee at February 25, 2009 7:30 PM

So, I'm watching the enhanced episode. When Jack hears a noise in his apt and finds Kate in his bed, the caption reads...

"Before Jack and Kate broke-up, they lived together at Kate's house."

Is that supposed to imply something? Like how does Kate get into Jack's apt? Probably reading too much into it, but there's always been something very strange about that scene.

Woo-hoo, 26 mins and counting...

TGIW!!

#463. Posted by: Clementine at February 25, 2009 8:34 PM

also watchin rerun. at breakfast, grandad's shoes are on the table. my grandad was an old vaudvillian and was deeply superstitious. he ingrainded many of them in me. putting shoes on a table was very bad luck! it was considered tempting fate. it is derived from an old tradition of putting a deceased miner's shoes on the table, somehow letting the family know that a loved one was dead. seeing the shoes on the table would freak him out. not knowing if someone had died. crazy old crap but re-seeing it made me think.

#464. Posted by: flegma at February 25, 2009 8:42 PM

@435/ransomjackson:
“Always with the quantity...never with the quality...
In addition to number of posts, it'd be interesting to see a word count.”

Well … you asked! Through post 464 …

Top ten posters (by posts):

(1) shikotee (47)
(2T) Plain Simple (20)
(2T) Cecil Rose (20)
(2T) ilovebenjaminlinusxx (20)
(5) LostedIt (18)
(6) FenwayBen (16)
(7) berkyo (14)
(8) ealgumby (13)
(9) vacc (12)
(10T) davidrh (11)
(10T) san (11)

Top ten posters (by word count):

(1) shikotee (7771)
(2) Plain Simple (3811)
(3) Mizzed (3738 [9 posts])
(4) LostedIt (3480)
(5) ealgumby (3054)
(6) Cecil Rose (2786)
(7) FenwayBen (2120)
(8) berkyo (1916)
(9) ilovebenjaminlinusxx (1834)
(10) vacc (1266)


#465. Posted by: ealgumby at February 25, 2009 9:03 PM

@465. Posted by: ealgumby

Please tell me there was some easy semi-automated way to figure that out...

#466. Posted by: shikotee at February 25, 2009 9:20 PM

I'm blown away. Episode 7 = intense.

#467. Posted by: Steve at February 25, 2009 10:16 PM

@466/shikotee: "Please tell me there was some easy semi-automated way to figure that out..."

Of course ... and more meaningless stats ...

Top ten posters (by non-space character count):

(1) shikotee (35023)
(2) Mizzed (17773)
(3) Plain Simple (17312)
(4) LostedIt (15546)
(5) ealgumby (14279)
(6) Cecil Rose (13038)
(7) FenwayBen (9547)
(8) berkyo (8702)
(9) ilovebenjaminlinusxx (8235)
(10) vacc (5894)

Top ten most verbose posters (by words per post, among top ten posters):

(1) Mizzed (415.3)
(2) ealgumby (234.9)
(3) LostedIt (193.3)
(4) Plain Simple (190.6)
(5) shikotee (165.3)
(6) Cecil Rose (139.3)
(7) berkyo (136.9)
(8) FenwayBen (132.5)
(9) vacc (105.5)
(10) ilovebenjaminlinusxx (91.7)

Top ten biggest-word posters (by characters per word, among top ten posters):

(1) Mizzed (4.75)
(2) Cecil Rose (4.68+)
(3) ealgumby (4.68-)
(4) vacc (4.66)
(5) berkyo (4.54)
(6) Plain Simple (4.52)
(7) shikotee (4.51)
(8) FenwayBen (4.50)
(9) ilovebenjaminlinusxx (4.49)
(10) LostedIt (4.47)


#468. Posted by: ealgumby at February 25, 2009 10:18 PM

@468. Posted by: ealgumby

So....

Copied and pasted, and then what?
You ran a script?
Just curious as to what you used.

Very cool episode, but obviously poor form to comment on it over here.

(sigh)

#469. Posted by: shikotee at February 25, 2009 10:24 PM

Hoooo Leeee Shit....

I did not see that coming.

#470. Posted by: LostInConnecticut at February 25, 2009 10:40 PM

hokey smoke...blindsided!

#471. Posted by: undaunted at February 25, 2009 11:02 PM

Ok, that whole word count, character count, etc was awesome!

Regarding the episode that I just finished watching on DVR (had to get the kids to sleep and get everything else done around the house first) I have to say I'm VERY surprised about some of the stuff. The plane actually landed? And on the island no less! Holy cow. Didn't see that one coming. Ben didn't FOOM with the rest? I actually called that one! Ben killed Abbadon and THEN killed Locke? Holy moley cow, batman!

My big question, which I've postulated earlier this week - WHO THE HECK IS GOOD AND WHO THE HECK IS BAD? I can no longer tell.

#472. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 11:04 PM

@444, shikotee: ""Iiit's a raaace! I hope I wiiin!"
(Any "Ratrace" fans out there?)"

Great film. I only saw it once a long time ago, so I wouldn't have recognised the quote. :)

@445, LostedIt: "xkcd.com had a recent comic where they discussed how DO you include an emoticon inside parentheses?"

Link? I always struggle with that (like this :) ). :)

As for the whole number of posts thing: I try to only post when I have something to say. Never knew I had that much to say. :)

I'd hate to see this blog succumb to a spam fest because people want to 'win'. But I'm sure you enlightened folk are above that. ;)

@453, LostedIt: "This is one of the best sites I know for intelligent postulation about Lost. Doc Jensen and crew are really good at connecting dots I never knew existed. Oh, and one of those postulations is that Jack is Jacob. See why:

http://tinyurl.com/d5rzp4"

EW is fun to read, but I find some of the 'connections' really far fetched. How much of it was put in on purpose and how much is just people obsessing over details? Well, any meaningful art studies discussions aside, I guess as long as we have fun writing and reading it...

@458, surefoot: LOL!

@461, Scooby-Dude: "That makes me think: wouldn't it be great if they do indeed end up during Dharma time and Sawyer and Roger are sitting by a Dharma van drinking beer and Sawyer says "cheers" and dings Roger in the head again."

Yes, it would!

@463, Clementine: "Is that supposed to imply something? Like how does Kate get into Jack's apt? Probably reading too much into it, but there's always been something very strange about that scene."

Surely, Jack would have given Kate a key to his apartment as well. I agree there was something strange with that scene though. With the whole episode I should say.

@464, flegma: Interesting. Dead man's shoes on the table.

Ah, the enhanced 316 started here a couple of minutes ago. Let's trade the blog for the tv. See you all at the Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham!

#473. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 25, 2009 11:04 PM

Oh cr@p. MAC PLEASE REMOVE MY PREVIOUS POST!!!!!!!!!!

#474. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 11:05 PM

Guys, I'm sorry I posted stuff before everyone had a chance to see the episode. I don't know what the heck I was thinking. Very poor form indeed. Anyone in contact with Mac if you can get him to remove my post I'd appreciate it.

#475. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 11:10 PM

ilovebenjaminlinusxx
should
probably
reconsider
her
choice
of
Heart
Throb.
He
will
obviously
take
her
down
to
ruin
in
the
long
run.

#476. Posted by: davidrh at February 25, 2009 11:10 PM

@473: Plain Simple - I have no interest in actually "winning" any race and/or spamming this site with posts (as I contradict what I just said and spam it with posts in the last few minutes). I've just been running with the joke since someone listed the top 10 posters.

@468: ealgumby - I'm anticipating my previous post with spoilers will hopefully get removed so I'm re-posting my comment to you. Holy crap, batman. That whole word/character/etc. count was awsome! What utility could you possibly have that tracks that kind of stuff for a discussion board type of format?

#477. Posted by: LostedIt at February 25, 2009 11:15 PM

Is it me, or are the replay episodes with the captions a little way too dumbed down?

Clearly, those of us that are here at this blog fall into a different category of awareness, but some of the captions seemed so not needed.

Absolutely - connect the dots to episodes of seasons past, but do you really need to remind us of things that happened only an episode or two ago?

I dunno....

#478. Posted by: shikotee at February 25, 2009 11:22 PM

don't sweat it LostedIt. Chances are those on the west coast were eating dinner and are getting ready for the show.

#479. Posted by: Steve at February 25, 2009 11:23 PM

@479. Posted by: Steve

It's not so much of a worry of the West Coast folk, as it is for the future folk.

In theory, 20 years from now, someone could start watching the show, and reading this blog at the same time.

It's not the end of the world, but it's a good thing to keep in mind...

#480. Posted by: shikotee at February 25, 2009 11:30 PM

that's true shikotee. Just trying to make LI feel better, I'm sure a lot of us have sent that email out and woke up the next morning regretting it.
It's all good...
LOL, we've been watching too much LOST! Are you trying to say you're visiting the past and that post won't matter in the future? ;-P

#481. Posted by: Steve at February 25, 2009 11:39 PM

@ LostedIt - Regarding ealgumby's stats:

He probably copied and pasted into word, went to "tools", "word count" and it gives:

Pages
Words
Characters (no spaces)
Characters (with spaces)
Paragraphs
Lines
Non-Asian Words
Asian characters, Korean Words

If you just want a certain part of your document counted, highlight it, then go through the same process.

Nice job ealgumby!

#482. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 25, 2009 11:46 PM

ANYWAY, this episode just proved my hatred towards Jack even more. He was SO MEAN!

I actually thought Ben was being REALLY CUTE with what he was saying before the "incident". He's still awesome though. =]

#483. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 25, 2009 11:48 PM

@481. Posted by: Steve

This blog will find a way to course correct itself.... ;)

#484. Posted by: shikotee at February 25, 2009 11:50 PM

@483. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

How can you still love Ben. He is very eeeeevil! And a genius. An Evil Genius. Bwahaha!!!

#485. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 25, 2009 11:55 PM

@482. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

I don't think he is using Word.

It has to be able to get the stats per user and per post.

A - I don't think Word can do this
and
B - It just does not seem his style

#486. Posted by: shikotee at February 25, 2009 11:56 PM

@482/ilovebenjaminlinusxx & @486/shikotee

Actually, you’re both right ... sorta ...

Probably no one else cares, but if you’re interested, here’s what I did ...

I started with a simple cut/paste text-only into a file, and then wanted to convert this into a file with one paragraph for each complete post, beginning with the poster’s name. In principle, this seemed simple enough to do, either manually with Word, or via script (my choice was Unix csh, as that’s what I’m most familiar with); once I had the file in this format, I could sort it by name. From there, it’s a simple exercise to get the post-count for each name, and word count stats for all of his/her posts ... again this can be done manually, or via script.

As I said, in principle this seemed simple ... but as you might guess, it did not turn out that way! The main problem is finding a foolproof way to discretely identify each post, which turned out to be much more difficult than I had imagined. My first instinct was to “mark” the end of each post with a special character not found in any of the posts (good candidates are the ^ | ` { } \ characters), and I could do this using a search/replace for all occurrences of “# AM ” and “# PM ” where “#” is a number (note this is much easier via script, as it’s simple to loop through all the digits from 0 to 9, but can be done manually within Word as well). Once I had that done, I could eliminate all linefeeds (i.e. paragraph marks) in the document, except for those immediately following the inserted character; that leaves (theoretically) one line for each post. Then, each poster’s name was isolated by similar technique looking for the funny little arrow character that precedes each post number when you cut/paste from the blog. Finally, I’d reorder the alternating entries so the poster’s name came first, followed by the post text (there are many ways to do this without having to cut paste each line, but I won’t get into that now ...), and then merge the line pairs back into a single line for each post ... now beginning with the poster’s name.

Okay, that’s what I wanted to do ... but it did not work! Why? Because of post references embedded within other people’s posts, that might consist of the whole “end-of-post” line (with funny arrow and AM/PM at the end), or sometimes just the arrow, or sometimes just the AM/PM at the end. In short, my scripted approach to processing the file puked all over itself because of these “false end of record indicators”. I’ve given this some thought since yesterday afternoon when I first tried this, and think I have a solution (short of writing a true coded app to do this) ... I could ensure that each post is written out one at a time, and the post number marking the true end-of-post increments with each post; any detected end-of-post markers which are references will have earlier numbers in them. I could also use this knowledge to track references, as ILBxx had suggested.

Of course, this is not truly foolproof either, as sometimes Mac removes posts, and that could even result in post references being larger than the “new” current post number if multiple posts are removed (which has been done in the past with spam entries). However, in the vast number of cases, this approach will work.

Then there’s also the problem of typos/inconsistencies in posted names (e.g., BTLY/btly, Cecil/Cecil Rose, david/davidrh [which I could only tell for sure from post context], mozart is not deaf./mozart is not deaf, IslandHopper/IslandHoppwe [one key to the left with the “er” I presume], and Mizzed/Mizzed and the insert-hallucinogen-induced-companions-here ;) ). I can handle the capitalization issues by tweaking the script (although in general, capitalization does matter in Unix), but the other stuff I cannot automate, especially when post text needs to be crosschecked to ensure the posts are from the same person.

At any rate ... my initial attempt to fully automate things did not work, so I ended up doing some of both. The script was good for much of the preliminary file formatting, but then I had to do a lot of manual cutting/pasting after that until I had one line for each post, then more manual editing so all posted names were consistent across multiple posts from the same person. By that time, I was back at home, and just used Word’s “word count” feature for the final stats, as ILBxx suggested.

More info than you probably wanted, but there it is, just in case you’re curious. I think I’d like to take another stab at fully automating this (at least, to the extent it can be due to the limitations mentioned above re deleted posts and inconsistent names), and then cascading down through all the threads since day one ... just to satisfy my own curiosity. I’m in no hurry though; maybe by the end of the season.

#487. Posted by: ealgumby at February 26, 2009 2:47 PM

@ ealgumby - 487
Wow. I think I got a nose bleed from that.

Nice description! =]

#488. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 4:12 PM

Hi... prefacing with 2 things

1) Long time reader, first time poster

2)I'm a week behind watching LOST (blasphemous I know...) and have just watched 316, and did manage to scan all these posts (sooooo many fans!)

But, I did just want to say that my initial thought for "condolences man" was that he was with Sayid in the Iraqi army... though imdb does say he hasn't been in a previous episode... and I don't have that past episode... but did that thought cross anyone else's mind?!

OK... hopefully I will be all caught up before this week's episode!

Thanks to everyone for keeping me up to speed on where we should be remembering everyone/thing/reference from!

#489. Posted by: Amazon at March 1, 2009 10:28 PM

xYjrAC gkayfvqc gwvxysbf xcfkrqeo

#490. Posted by: compra cialis at March 12, 2009 8:52 AM