The Lost Blog

Key Points from "Namaste"

Season 5, Episode 9
Episode Air Date: 03/18/09

Point 1
Sawyer

Juliet

Jin

Jack

Kate

Hurley
These poor suckers can't catch a break. Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, Ben and Locke pull of an impossible feat -- finding an unfindable island -- but just as they're ready to celebrate their success, the space-time continuum slices the group into two different tribes stuck on two different islands ... in two different epochs.

As we saw in "LaFleur," the group that got sucked from Ajira 316 -- Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid (yes, Sayid was a suckee) -- has been planted on the big island, circa 1977. The group that crashed -- Ben, Locke, Sun, Frank, Caesar, Ilana and the other Ajirans -- is stuck on the smaller "Hydra" island in 2007. As you can imagine, a three-decade gap puts a damper on the party planing committee's reunion plans, including that long-awaited cry-fest between Sun and Jin.

Most of this episode's action focuses on the '77 crew. Notable developments, observations and miscellany from this plotline include:

  • Jack, Kate and Hurley's sudden appearance just happens to coincide with a fairly rare occurence: the Dharma sub is pulling into port with a new batch of recruits. Sawyer and Juliet quickly arrange for the trio's names to appear on all the necessary documentation, and soon all three are trotting around Dharmaville in jumpsuits (Jack's been knocked down a few pegs with a "workman" designation). The only downside to the Dharma ruse is that Jack, Kate and Hurley must pretend they don't know Sawyer, Juliet, Jin and Miles. We've already seen Hurley crack under the pressure of lying, so who knows how long this current charade will last.
  • Three years (real time) and three decades (island time) haven't softened Jack and Sawyer's alpha-male instincts. Within hours of reuniting, the two are sniffing around each other like wild boars. Of the two, Sawyer's El Jefe complex is in higher gear because he has more to lose (status, lifestyle, shackin' up with Juliet). In one scene, Sawyer uses a Winston Churchill reference (I kid you not) to absolutely eviscerate Jack's leadership credentials.

    Now, It'll be interesting to see if Jack's return to the island leads to a newfound clarity, or if he falls into that old "I need to fix something, STAT!" pattern. This episode featured a few moments where Jack appeared slightly less constipated than normal. I'm not sure if that stems from the initial shock of returning to the island, or if it's the first glimmer of Jack 2.0.

  • Kate and Juliet aren't thrilled to see one another, either. Their smiley "introduction" is colder than a Rosie O'Donnell - Elisabeth Hasselbeck foreign policy debate. But we all know Juliet could crush Kate whenever she likes, so Freckles best mind herself.
  • Sayid's whereabouts have been questioned over the last few episodes, but halfway through "Namaste" he suddenly appears near the Flame station (the communications hub Locke blows up in 2004). The serendipitous good fortune enjoyed by Jack, Kate and Hurley doesn't extend to Sayid. Instead of sliding in as a Dharma recruit, he's forced to falsely claim membership in the Others. Sawyer manages to get him tossed safely into Dharma jail, but I'm sure Sayid would have preferred an upgrade to one of those pre-fab condos. The poor guy is also out of the loop on the whole "hey, you're in the 1977!" thing.
  • This episode's '70s segment formally introduces / reintroduces a number of secondary characters:

    Radzinsky -- A balding, cranky Dharma scientist who spends his downtime constructing scale models of the Swan station's computer room. Radzinksy's involvement in the Swan's development has a whiff of irony since we know he eventually uses a shotgun and his own brain matter to redecorate the Swan's ceiling decor.

    Ethan -- Last week, we saw Juliet rejoice at delivering Amy's baby boy. This week, she throws up in her mouth a little when Amy reveals that her new son's name is Ethan ... as in Ethan Rom ... future Oceanic faker, Claire kidnapper, and Charlie hanger. The most intriguing part of this revelation is this: How does Ethan go from being Dharma born-and-bred to a homicidal Other?

    Pierre Chang -- Jack is formally processed by Dharma's instructional video host.

  • Little Ben -- We first met innocent Benjamin Linus during the flashback sequences of "The Man Behind the Curtain," but Little Ben is bumped into the direct narrative with a foreboding scene at the conclusion of this episode. A simple sandwich exchange between Little Ben and Dharma's latest prisoner, Sayid, suggests that Sayid will soon put Daniel Faraday's "you can't change the timeline" theory to the test.
  • Speaking of twitchy Dan ... sometime between the Rise of LaFleur (1974) and the return of the Oceanic crew (1977), Faraday separates from the group. But, based on that early scene from this season's premiere, we know he's still on the island and he's involved -- directly or via subterfuge -- with the construction of the Orchid station.
Point 2
Sun

Frank

Ben
One of the questions from "316" was quickly answered in this episode: we now know that Sun is the mysterious woman who helps Frank steal one of the outrigger canoes.

We also receive an answer to a question we didn't know to ask. Contrary to what we saw at the end of "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham," we learn that Ben did not sustain major wounds from the crash of Ajira 316. In fact, the island's Neosporin-esque healing properties initially wrap Ben in a cocoon of rejuvenation. But Sun puts an end to that nonsense by whacking Ben over the head with a canoe oar. The crumpled Ben we see in "Bentham" was likely due to Sun's handiwork.

Sun and Frank arrive on the big island, but island jumps and Widmore attacks and Smokey playing tetherball with mercenaries has left New Otherton in shambles. Fortunately, they're soon paid a visit by the director of island tourism, Dr. Christian Shephard, who guides Sun and Frank to the dilapidated Other/Dharma game room and picks the 1977 Dharma team photo off the wall. Dr. Daddy breaks the bad news: Jin and the rest of the Oceanic crew are way back in the '70s. "You have a bit of a journey ahead of you," Dr. Daddy says.

Point 3
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "How'd that work out for everyone?" - Ben, in response to Frank's reminder that Widmore sent armed mercenaries to take him off the island.
  • Second Best Line: "Oh ... what?" -- Hurley's response to learning he's now in 1977.
  • Why is it that Christian Shephard can pluck Dharma photos from a wall, but he couldn't help Locke get to his feet in "This Place is Death"?
  • The runway on the Hydra island stirs up a bunch of questions: Did Dharma begin construction on the runway, or was it an Other-driven project? Who was going to land planes on the island? Why was it being built on the smaller island? And here's one that'll make your noggin' hurt: Was the runway built so Ajira 316 -- and only Ajira 316 -- could land on it? In previous seasons that last question would be a stretch, but with islanders zipping all along the timeline, isn't it possible that someone at some point mentioned the jet's 2007 arrival? (Update: After writing this review, I noticed that Ealgumby brought up this exact same point (comment #501) during the broadcast, so now I'm convinced the runway's genesis is tied to the island's wacky timeline!)
  • Ben refers to the big island as "ours." Do the Others not lay official claim to the second island?
  • I will be deeply disappointed if we never see Sawyer's baggy bulldog sweatshirt.

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"He's Our You" -- A rogue islander's wacky ideas throw a spanner in the works. Airs Wednesday, March 25, 2009 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

mIF

#1. Posted by: mtncbn at March 19, 2009 12:08 AM

Wow, what an episode! Did anyone catch the lady in the shadows over Sun's shoulder when Christian is showing her the picture of Jin circa '77? She looked to be a redhead. Charlotte maybe?

Could Sun have not foomed because she didn't bring Ji Yeon? (Poor Jin.) I can't compute why else she wouldn't be included. Is Obi-Locke gonna lead them back to the others?

I think Sayid is going to go all Rambo and try to rid the world of little Ben. After all, "he drew first blood."

#2. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 19, 2009 12:20 AM

LoL!!!

There is no way Jack will be able stand unclogging Dharma toilets! If only Paolo were around to leave a deuce or two!!!

Did I miss it, or did we not find out what occupations are in store for Hugo and Kate?

#3. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2009 12:26 AM

Ben wasn't on the original flight, John was alive on the original flight, Sun was pregnant on the original flight. These could explain their stuck in 2007 status.

#4. Posted by: Someone at March 19, 2009 12:45 AM

R U seeing things? Lost2theworld is seeing things. Only a smoke monster came in the room. Not a monster but a spirit. I never saw a face in the smoke, but I did notice it. How could you not? The door did creek open like a spirit came in the area.

#5. Posted by: Mary at March 19, 2009 12:47 AM

Funny wrap-up. I wanna know what Lost2theworld wants to know: why didn't Sun foom back in time with the others? And then why not Locke either? Luckily these are the only real questions that I'm left with for this episode. It was great but I was glad to get a little bit of a breather from new mysteries and questions.

#6. Posted by: MIke at March 19, 2009 12:47 AM

Yeah, I saw the smoke too. I almost thought "Jacob" but my mind backed away from that as the scene progressed. We also heard a teeny tiny bit of the smoke monster's sounds when Sun and Frank show up on the other island. Any kind of connection?

#7. Posted by: Mike at March 19, 2009 12:52 AM

@ 4. Posted by: Someone

Sun wasn't pregnant on Oceanic 815. She got pregnant on the island by her formerly sterile husband Jin.

#8. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at March 19, 2009 1:14 AM

GRAA Mac!

Some first random remarks that are going through my head right now:

-I'm starting to really dislike Jack and Kate. They're just looking for problems everywhere they go, it seems.

-Why would Jin show up in a 1977 new recruits photo? Or was Christian just showing Kate, Hurley, and Jack?

-I didn't see anyone or anything enter the room, when the door creaked open. Have to check that again.

-For a moment when Sun and Frank heard the Smokey sounds, I was afraid Frank was bound for the same fate as the Oceanic pilot.

-"I'm Ben". Good to have you there little one. Now, do you think Sawyer and the rest would have known that he was there. I suppose he didn't just arrive with the new batch of recruits, because then they probably would not have let him come near a prisoner. I'm wondering anyway why they let a kid (or anyone except security personal for that matter) come near a imprisoned hostile.

-Why did Christian show Sun and Frank this picture? What does he hope they will do now?

-I smiled when they showed the runway. Good to have that little bit confirmed. Sometimes it's hard to keep apart what we've actually seen on the show and what all you people here have come up with. :)

-So Ethan's Amy's baby hmmm.... Could he be playing a more important role than we thought then? Was he special (in the Aaron and Walt sense) as well? We never got any clues pointing in that direction, did we?

-Pierre Chang's there, but we didn't see Horace today. Last episode there were some leadership questions, they're not resolved yet.

-Did anyone catch what Sawyer was reading?

-When the copilot died, I had a vague feeling that we have seen someone die in a similar way before on this show. Have we?

-Will Jack Workman meet Roger Workman?

-Heheh, Jack's a sanitor. Nice move Jim "no not James" LaFleur.

-Phil has nasty look.

-So Dharma's still designing the Swan. Will we see Jughead (that was the bomb, remember?) again soon?

-They should really really really give Miles something to do at some point.

Looking forward to all your posts. Namaste!

#9. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 19, 2009 1:17 AM

@9/Plain Simple: Since Sayid looks determined to test whether or not he can change time, Lil' Ben would be a great place to start.

Also, I think Christian is going to take Lapidus and Sun to the FDW. A jiggle here or there should get them to where they want to be.

#10. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at March 19, 2009 1:31 AM

Two more:

-Best guess at this point what happened to Faraday: something to do with time travel and Charlotte, because, well... doesn't everything this guy does? We know he ends up in the Orchid at some point and he warns Charlotte about her fate on the Island, so he can't be too far off. Trying to disprove his own theories (as a scientist should; thank you very much mr. Karl Popper) about not being able to change the past?

-Radzinsky was quite eager to kill the hostile/Sayid. Another in-show clue to the Dharmavillers not being all that peaceful. Perhaps they somehow triggered the purge themselves? (Although I can't think of anything severe enough to warrant genocide... or Dharmacide. Then again, none of the groups or characters on this show can really claim the moral high ground, so whether it's warranted or not, is not really the issue I suppose.)

#11. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 19, 2009 1:31 AM

I can't find the spot, but I thought someone(Sawyer I think) said something about Daniel being gone.

Also great line: Sun to Frank regarding trusting Ben 'I LIED'

#12. Posted by: mtncbn at March 19, 2009 1:55 AM

Potentially significant clue as Sun and Lapidus disembark at the Pala Ferry dock and hear/sense Smokey in the barracks, quickly followed by Christian appearing.

This is extremely similiar to the Eko/Yemi situation- Yemi's body disapears, Yemi appears to be a walking, talking ghost spirit, but actually Yemi turns out to be a manifestation of Smokey.

Does Smokey in some way absorb or manifest itself as a dead person as a means to communicate with living people? In its natural state, it has no method to "speak", so it must take human form to interact?

Early on, in season 1-2, TPTB said that viewers had seen Smokey, but hadn't recognized it, which led to the "Smokey is Vincent" theories. Perhaps they were really referring to the very beginning of the series, when Jack follows Christian into the jungle?

#13. Posted by: Mizzed at March 19, 2009 2:01 AM

@10 - If Sun and Frank turned the wheel they'd get kicked off the island and there's no guarantee they'd wind up in '77. Do they break it then but not turn it? I don't think it's that easy.

@9 - From what I could tell, Jin wasn't in the New Recruits photo, just Hurley, Jack, and Kate. But Christian said that Jin "is with your friends" as he shows them the picture. Is Christian dead or what?! I can't wait to finally have that one solved.

And where's Claire? She ran off with Christian and if I remember correctly we've only seen her once since, when Hurley went with Ben and Locke to the cabin and instead of Jacob they saw Christian and Claire. Am I remembering that correctly?

@11 - I'm now guessing that our Oceanic 815 characters, now back in time, will somehow be responsible for the purge.

I gotta hurry up and rewatch all the episodes. I'm in the middle of season 2 right now and it's taking too long!

#14. Posted by: Mike at March 19, 2009 2:03 AM

What if smokey is now Locke?

#15. Posted by: CrazyHair at March 19, 2009 2:08 AM

@2. Posted by: lost2theworld

I also saw the girl behind Sun but I think she is Claire. And she's there to help them understand because Sun knows her (but not Jack's dead father).

@9. Posted by: Plain Simple

Christian shows them the 1977 New Recruits photo so they believe what he's about to tell them.

- " -

I think Smokey was there just to deliver daddy Sheppard and daugther Claire.


I have more to say but here it's 06:06(am) and I have to go to work!

Can you believe I woke up by myself just in time to watch this episode?
Yes, yes... Lost gets to us all :)

Looking forward to your comments.

Later, dudes!

#16. Posted by: PreacherOnun at March 19, 2009 2:08 AM

I hate juliet, she is no annoying, I hope Sawyer and Kate sleep together next week

[Edit: Changed case. No All Caps, please.]

#17. Posted by: SHEYLA at March 19, 2009 2:17 AM

@13, Mizzed: Christian=Smokey definitely seems like an option. I thought the same thing during that scene. But until we get some more solid info on either Smokey or Christian, I guess this could just as well be a red herring.

@14, Mike: "And where's Claire? She ran off with Christian and if I remember correctly we've only seen her once since, when Hurley went with Ben and Locke to the cabin and instead of Jacob they saw Christian and Claire. Am I remembering that correctly?"

I think you remember that correctly indeed. Spoiler about what's not going to happen ahead:
*
*
*
*
I remember reading or seeing in one of the interviews earlier this season (I think it was on EW.com) that Claire will not appear this season. She will be back next year. So I doubt we will see her soon, or that she was in this episode, as PreacherOnun claims in 16. As long as she stays in the shades, they might have used a look-a-like though...
*
*
*

#18. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 19, 2009 2:26 AM

@17. Posted by: SHEYLA

My ears hurt. Please stop yelling!!!

#19. Posted by: shikotee at March 19, 2009 2:32 AM

About half way through the ep, while Jim, Hurley, Jack, and Kate are riding back to camp, Daniel comes up, Jack asks 'Did you say Faraday, he's here?'(in what had to be the most grade B acting of any character this series) and Jim responds 'Not anymore' So he's either dead or time traveled.

When Jim is getting clothes and is talking to Juliet, and mentions a plane in context with the returnies, I thought I saw a hint of recognition about the runway from Juliet.

#20. Posted by: mtncbn at March 19, 2009 2:50 AM

20@mtncbn You are so right!

Jack was so bad when he asked where Daniel is, it was either really bad acting terrible.
Or he was acting like someone who is completly unconfrtoable with where and who he's with and trying to just say something, but feeling like a total nerd.

Another thing when they had to change we saw Kate going somewhere change her clothes, she already sleps with all of them so what is she so modest about.

Sun scares me.. I think she's going to doing something bad soon.

#21. Posted by: maimon at March 19, 2009 4:24 AM

Sorry for the double post - that's the blog problem!

And the bad spelling - thats totaly me ;-)

#22. Posted by: maimon at March 19, 2009 4:28 AM

2004 - Sayid meets Ben and holds him in a Dharma cell.

1977 - Ben meets Sayid being held in a Dharma cell.


Sooooo... Ben really did get caught on purpose? How much does he know about fate and about the future? Is Ben trying to change things based on his knowledge of the future?

BTW, I thought Hurley saying "Oh... What?" was the best line.

GRAAA Mac

#23. Posted by: Dan at March 19, 2009 5:29 AM

So… we have the baby question out of the way. Ethan is a native but that didn’t do him much good :)

Sayid wandering through the jungle. Again. Back at the Flame. Again. As a prisoner. Again. Talk about déjà vu!!!! But it’s a relief to see him, though.

I agree with Plain Simple (post 11). The purge was triggered by the Losties.

And who else could be perfect for that job than our old mindgamer/torturer Sayid Jarrah?
I mean, when I saw the kid bringing him a sandwich I knew (I guess like everybody else) it was little Benjamin.
I believe it’s going to be Sayid that makes Ben join the Hostiles, after all. He has to escape Dharmaville somehow and we know that somewhere in time our gang has to turn sides if they want to survive. If they don’t manage to return to 2007 before that. Having someone already in RA camp it’s a good advantage.

I don’t think Faraday is dead but maybe he lost it for good and abandoned them. Or maybe he just has his own agenda. Somebody has to provoke the incident, right?
Besides, I was counting on him to find the way back to the future. I didn’t see any light blue DeLorean, so I guess they’re using the electromagnetic field of a “controlled” atomic blast of our own H-bomb!

Nevertheless if he can’t make it, Sun will do it. How? Don’t have that figured out yet… But Christian should know what to do.

#24. Posted by: PreacherOnun at March 19, 2009 6:34 AM

@2. Posted by: lost2theworld

a) I saw the "person" (does fully look like Charlotte) beyond Sun's shoulders too! I also saw the smoke come in the door, but also just as Christian finishes speaking you can see to the rear of Sun in the background the reddish hair, especially as the person turns around (from looking down at something in front of them?) because light is hitting their hair ... a bit creepy the first time I saw it - mind you, hope the editing team didn't accidentally leave a crew member in the film, lol!

b) Also, have always wondered about something - I'm not sure if I'm remembering correclty, but when Juliet first came to the island someone (I think another woman) said to her something like, "Amazing, you look so much like her," - does anyone else remember this? I've always wondered what this meant - of all the things you could wonder about, I know it's a bit out there/weird - but am now wondering if the woman was maybe referring to her back in the 70's ... although I don't think the the woman who said it to her thought it was actually her ... which makes sense coz not everyone knows EVERYTHING ... cept for maybe Christian, Richard ... and Ben?

c) ... though he didn't know Sun was going to knock him out! And now I wonder ... Sun knocks Ben out with a paddle ... and he's still lying in bed when John is resurrected and being shown around (at least a day or 2 later)? Weird, but probably not important.

d) Speaking of Sun, here's a really dumb idea as to why she hasn't "foomed" ... maybe coz she was on the other side of the plane to the other Oceanic 6? Tho, Jack was on her side, but he was in an aisle seat, whereas she had a window seat so ... ? Lol, dumb, I know. Or maybe it's a bit of a "rapture" and she's not a believer, so she just got left behind!

Lastly ... Sayid meets Ben ... maybe Sayid recruits Ben and turns him into the psycho that he is! I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that Ben will possibly knows heaps more and everybody and everything once he wakes up from being knocked out? (like how Desmond woke up and remembered Daniel talking to him at the hatch about his mother).

Anywayz, another brilliant installment! I would like to see Miles do more/say more/be more too, he's hilarious!

#25. Posted by: Lost-in-NZ at March 19, 2009 6:38 AM

Could Daniel have joined the hostiles because he blames those in Dharmaville for the death of Charlotte?

Another "losties have communication issues" moment...Sawyer asks Jack how Locke died and Jack's reponse was, "It's not important. He's just gone." (or something close to that) And Sawyer doesn't pursue it!! These people all need to eat some Dharma brownies and have a nice long chat.

Thanks to those of you who said you saw the girl over Sun's shoulder too. I have to go back and look at that scene again. I didn't notice the smoke. Actually I need to rewatch the whole episode.

#26. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 19, 2009 7:14 AM

I was wondering if maybe the reason Sun and Ben didn't go back to 77 is because they are already there. Ben as a little boy and Sun as Dr Changs daughter.

#27. Posted by: Steve at March 19, 2009 7:16 AM

I really thought it was odd that J, K & H really didn't react that much to the whole time trial theory. Hugo's 'what?' aside. They are just going with the flow. The others foomed around for quite a while to really understand the time switching, but this is new to them.

The runway was totally built for the landing of the Ajira jet. After all, Ben was on the plane and he needed to make sure he survived.

If christian=smokey and smokey=island security system, then christian's motives really come into question. Smokey is one bad dude.

Ethan must be 'special' somehow, but I wonder why Ben sent him to infiltrate - we know why he send Goodwin.

My earlier thought about Juliet looking 'just like her' is really her looking like herself. Things are going to get interesting.

Juliet needs to just take out Kate. She's really getting annoying.

Someone needs to clue Sayid in soon.

The whole Alpha Male dynamic is hilarious. Go Sawyer!!!

Namaste!

#28. Posted by: EthansGirl at March 19, 2009 7:19 AM

Kate is in the motor pool and Hugo is a chef with Jack as a workman. You think Roger was insulted to be "a janitor".

I wonder if the aptitude results for Jack and Hugo were from the 2 crew that did not come on the sub or if Sawyer and Juliet made the choices. It seems the 3 rd "add on" of Kate was purposely placed in the motor pool - Juliet wants to keep an eye on her?

#29. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at March 19, 2009 7:48 AM

The line from the first episode from the naive workman in the Orchid to Chang "So, what are you are going to go back and kill Hitler?" Then Chang retorts "No you idiot - there are rules!" takes on a whole new meaning now that Sayid is out for Ben (our own adorable/creepy, bug-eyed at an early age, Hitler!)

According to Lostpedia, Ben was born on 12/19 in the early 60's. That would put him in the early teens when he meets Sayid. He is older than when we met him originally but fortunately he does not seem to have contracted "Tall" disease like Walt and still looks similar.

It is unclear in the show at what age he met RA in the woods. RA told Ben he would have to be patient and may be able to join them later. If they chat more off camera he could have mentioned something about Sayid or tip off RA to more than just that he can see his dead mom. Or he has already met RA and is going to try and help Sayid to help gain the Others trust so he can join them. Ben always has a plan and RA knows all!

#30. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at March 19, 2009 8:03 AM

Thanks Mac...great review, as always!! I look so forward to Thursday mornings to begin my Lost rituals!

I need to re-watch and will have more later but...

Had to mention my favorite line of the night... Hurley to Jin - Man, your English got good! HA! I laughed out loud!!

#31. Posted by: boodle at March 19, 2009 8:07 AM

GRAA Thanks Mac.

Jack 2.0! I'm thinking the same thing; he actually appeared to acquiesce to Sawyer's "Im taking care of it; go get some rest."

Perplexing: Why didn't Sun foom to 1977?

I'm loving Lapidus whom I believe was meant to be among the O815 survivors. That's why the pilot of 815 had to die...Smokey was peeved; it was the wrong pilot.

gotta go to work. look forward to the comments and insight later.

#32. Posted by: undaunted at March 19, 2009 8:27 AM

@Steve #27:
Sun can't be Chang's daughter. First of all, Chang sounds Chinese and Sun is Korean. Second, if Chang knew English so well, couldn't sun learn from him if Chang really was her father?

#33. Posted by: Mr. Cube at March 19, 2009 8:35 AM

@27 Steve & @33 Mr. Cube

Why Sun didn't foom.

I still maintain that Mr. Paik is into this up to his eyeballs and that he was on the island at some point too. It doesn't make sense that they would make him this all-powerful business man a la Widmore without it being relevant. I have to believe that he is tied in with Ben, Widmore, Hawking and the island somehow. If that is the case Sun could be on the island in '77 as a little girl.

#34. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 19, 2009 8:44 AM

What in the world made Sawyer and group assume that the time travel back to the 70s was worldwide? And, more importantly, now that Jack and crew are back on the island, why can't they figure out that back in the real world (off island) time is regular and it is indeed 2007? I am confused. Befuddled.

Do Sawyer, Juliette, Miles and Jin just not want to entertain this thought? And if the sub has been coming and going to the mainland for 3 years, are we to believe that life in Dharmaville is so idyllic that not one of them thought to leave? Or to inquire about the period in time off-island? So if we assume that Sawyer and Juliette are all happy and cozy, fine. But what about Jin? He has a wife and a baby for heaven sake. Eeek! My brain hurts!

#35. Posted by: GatorGal at March 19, 2009 8:46 AM

@ → 27. Posted by: Steve at March 19, 2009 7:16 AM
"I was wondering if maybe the reason Sun and Ben didn't go back to 77 is because they are already there. Ben as a little boy and Sun as Dr Changs daughter."

That's possible...but what about Frank and Locke?

Anyone hear the 'numbers' coming over the radio right before the plane came down?

I didn't notice anyone other than Christian...and Smokey!...in that cabin. Jin was not in the picture, just Hurly, Kate, and Jack, and the other new recruits.


#36. Posted by: 74 at March 19, 2009 8:50 AM

I didn't think this was that great an episode. Definitely a filler, like an Act 2 kind of thing, like you need to get through this before we can take you to the next part of the story. But on the whole...meh.

I'm convinced the runway was built for Ojira 316 and no other reason. After all, Ben needed to land somewhere.

Sun whacking Ben with an oar..."I lied."...out-friggin-standing.

Curious aside - What's up with Sawyer and his glasses? I thought the island healed folks, but he's been needing specs since he got there...interesting...

Didn't see the girl behind Sun...bottom of my beer bottle must've interfered with my view...must re-watch.

And Rose and Bernard are still missing.

#37. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 19, 2009 9:03 AM

I think Daniel left the island on a sub.
I don't think he is dead.

#38. Posted by: AC at March 19, 2009 9:10 AM

@28/EthansGirl: "if christian=smokey and smokey=island security system, then christian's motives really come into question. Smokey is one bad dude."

I don't think so. Smokey could be seen as more of a guardian/protector of the island. My theory is TPTB are making a biblical analogy here, with Smokey equivalent to the angel with sword of fire who was posted by the entrance to Eden, preventing humans from entering and eating the fruit of the Tree of Life (and becoming immortal).

I'm not saying that the Island is Eden, but what if the fight over the island is really a fight over the secret of immortality?

A few more logs on my "Christian is Smokey" fire:

- When Montand is pulled into the hole beneath the temple (and presumably killed), he surprisingly calls out to the crew. Another example of Smokey using a dead form to communicate to the living?

- Just as Smokey/Montand may have lured the rest of the crew into the hole, so Smokey/Christian lures Claire to the cabin?

- If Christian=Smokey, he has some ability to appear off-island. Jack saw Christian in the hospital, although they did not speak.

Hurley has repeatedly seen the spirits of people killed on the island (Charlie, Eko, Ana Lucia). Why Hurley? He has already shown the ability to receive messages from the island (the ever-present numbers), sort of like a psychic antenna. Smokey may appear to Hurley in forms he would recognize and communicate with, because he never knew Christian.

- Why is Christian Smokey's primary manifestation? If you believe that Jack=Jacob (the "Shepherd"), then what better form to influence events?

It's all wild speculation, but there is growing momentum to the idea that Jack somehow becomes Jacob, is imprisoned or weakened in a way that we don't yet understand, and must be helped/restored before some catastophic event happens in the near future (detonation of Jughead?).

Smokey may be fighting to protect Jack (hereforth known as Jackob), with possible assistance from the Master of Mainpulation hisself, Benjamin (as in biblical son of Jacob) and the immortal Richard.

On the other side, looking to take over the island for their own means (read= exploitation and the the possible pursuit of immortality, ala the tree of life), a shadowy international industrial-military cabal featuring Widmore, Paik, Hanso, Abaddon and others. Dharma may be their scientific arm, a group of naive, hippy-trippy scientists who are doing the cabal's research under the false assumption they are saving the world.

And this secret organization's master weapon?

The original Jughead, John Locke, who if they can only get him to believe he is "special", will get in Jackob's way and muck up the whole works, a theme we have seen repeatedly played out throughout the entire series.

How many times has Locke been manipulated in his lifetime? I made the point in a previous episode blog that when Locke was recruited to go to Portland as a high school student, that was before the purge, when the submarine and infrastructure was under Dharma's control, not the others.

This also adds weight to the theory offered by Doc Jensen and others, that the "you're not supposed to raise him" refers not to Aaron, but to Locke....

I have to admit I currently love this overall concept for where the show may head. Please poke holes and tear away and restore me to my senses....

#39. Posted by: Mizzed at March 19, 2009 9:11 AM

Does any one think we are going to see faraday (we already know that he is in the orchid eventually) turn the FDW and get off the island and deposit him in the past, pre 2004? Could that explain where faraday has been the last 3 years, could explain why hawking wasn't too concerned to hear her son was on the island (he was safely back at home) and explain why faraday cries when he sees oceanic 815 has crashed? He knows he's doomed to relive this again and already knows all the bad things that will happen

#40. Posted by: b mar at March 19, 2009 9:14 AM

@ #30: I recall that Ben came to the island at age 11 and that was in 1974. So, in 1977 he would be 14.

#41. Posted by: GatorGal at March 19, 2009 9:23 AM

re: Speaking of twitchy Dan ... we know he's still on the island and he's involved -- directly or via subterfuge -- with the construction of the Orchid station.

We don't know that. Three years of subs coming and going, he could be off-island at 'construction' school. That, or touring with the "Village People".

#42. Posted by: DocH at March 19, 2009 9:24 AM

Okay, this might make my nose bleed, but could someone explain this to me:

If someone knew they needed a runway for Ajira in the future, wouldn't that mean that they went through the (future) experience of it crashing already, thus the need to build a runway? And if so, that would change the outcome of the people onboard if there was no runway the first time it crashed.
Anyone understand this??

#43. Posted by: Christina at March 19, 2009 9:27 AM

Lost in NZ wrote "hope the editing team didn't accidentally leave a crew member in the film, lol!" regarding the mysterious figure in the background when Sun and Frank met Daddy Shepherd. Do you suppose Christian (Bale) Shepherd flipped out about the redhead walking through the set during his scene?

Maybe Faraday left the island on the sub to find his mum for ideas on getting back to their own time. Then he'll come back in 6 months on the next sub and get worked into the Orchid work detail.

I'm thinking Jimbo and Miles must have filled in Sayid on his whereabouts in time when they drove him back to Dharmaville.

Boy was I wrong about Ethan. I always thought the actor looked to old for him to have been the baby. He must be special. Maybe that's why Ben sends him to the Losties' camp in the future in hopes to get rid of another special person who could supplant him as leader. Also being born on the island may be why he was able to be brought into the Hostiles rather than exterminated. He's native. Were all the Hostile/natives people born on the island? Also have to wonder if the reason Ethan can flip over to the side of the Hostiles has something to do with his mom. Still don't think we know all that was going on when we saw her husband shot by the Hostiles. Her husband did seem to have a gun with him. Maybe Amy has ties to the Hostiles or was a Hostile that somehow infiltrated Dharma... I think there's more to her story.

Lastly, anyone else think of the closing shot from "The Shining" when Christian showed Sun the black and white photo of her friends that was taken thirty years earlier? It's like the island brought these people to where they were always supposed to be much as the spirits of the hotel brought Nicholson into where he always belonged...

#44. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 19, 2009 9:34 AM

@ransom--"I didn't think this was that great an episode. Definitely a filler, like an Act 2 kind of thing, like you need to get through this before we can take you to the next part of the story. But on the whole...meh"
I totally felt that way too. A let down after waiting two weeks for the episode. Wanted more from the Sawyer/Kate reunion like maybe some hint of what he said to her before she jumped from the helicopter. But now getting on the blog and hearing about the mysterious redhead that I missed the first time around, I'm finding there might have been more to the episode than I originally thought.
And you're right about Rose and Bernard. I'm wondering more than ever what happened to them. It sure seems like Sawyer Miles Daniel and Juliet are the only ones who made it through all the FOOMs to 1974 alive and well. Thinking more than ever that R@B are Adam and Eve.

#45. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 19, 2009 9:39 AM

Sledgeweb has video of the woman seen behind Sun:

http://is.gd/o0Z8

#46. Posted by: mac at March 19, 2009 9:42 AM

Am I the only one that didnt like this episode at all? I honestly think it is the weakest of the season by far.

There were three very interesting moments in the episode

Amy's baby being Ethan

The Christian/Sung/Lapidus Scene

Final scene with Ben and Sayed

I don't want lost falling into a love triangle type of plot. It's not days of our lives!!!

#47. Posted by: Michaelmvp at March 19, 2009 9:42 AM

I am in the process of re-watching the part when Sun and Frank get to the other Island and are about to meet Christian, and I noticed that right before he comes out, there are whispers...

#48. Posted by: Christina at March 19, 2009 9:48 AM

I'm a bit disappointed. Some of the time/time travel concepts thrown around during the latest episodes got me thinking that although the losties were traveling in time, our losties were in the "original" timeline, and traveling back in time to pieces of that original timeline. Now with Christian showing Sun a picture of the losties back in 77, that means we are in fact not seeing the "original" timeline of events.

#49. Posted by: afraal at March 19, 2009 9:53 AM

Noticed something else...for those of you who wanted to know what work assignments were given to Jack, Kate and Hurley...You can see Kate's on her jumpsuit in the shot where they are taking their "New Recruits" picture. If you have a really good resolution TV, you can see it. I don't, however, so I couldn't read it, so if anyone can read it, can you please post it here?
Thanks!

#50. Posted by: Christina at March 19, 2009 9:55 AM

What happened to Rose and Bernard? I miss Rose's character...

#51. Posted by: RoseMIA at March 19, 2009 9:57 AM

Ten bucks says that's not a sandwich in the brown paper bag lil' Ben passes Sayid.

Where does all this speculation of Sun being Chang's daughter come from? Did the Paiks adopt her?

Great review, Mac. Loved the humor in it!

#52. Posted by: Glostover at March 19, 2009 10:06 AM

I also thought this episode was a ho-hum filler episode. The Lost time-plot construct is a total mess. When the FDW was turned by Ben, the island moved in time and space. And we were told that time was linear, like a river, flowing through space. But this episode destroys that concept because there are two islands in two different times but in the same space/location.

Also, the integration of the O6 into Dharma was brutally, poorly executed. Dharma was paranoid about security; poor paperwork would not change the fact that the sub captain would have counted his passengers - - and now there are 3 extra people at the recruitment party?

The appearance of Ghost Dad to Sun and Frank in 2007 Otherville was to equate Shepard with Smokey. But at the 316 camp, Locke was not with them after the crash. He must have appeared later, the next day, after Shepard ghost encounters Sun and Frank. That would lead one to conclude that Locke + Shepard = Smokey manifestation.

#53. Posted by: welh at March 19, 2009 10:07 AM

@ 39 Posted by Mizzed...

"I'm not saying that the Island is Eden..."

I think you damn well should say that it is. Now that's a theory that I can hang my hat on. So much better than Atlantis or Purgatory or a Farpoint Station-type of thing.

It works on so many levels. Not the least of which is Slick-tongued Ben. And they even referred to the skeletons as Adam and Eve.

Now where's that darn tree...?

#54. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 19, 2009 10:13 AM

Unfortunately I don't remember the whole thing cause I was drunk....nice! I did call the runway thingy though.

#55. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 19, 2009 10:17 AM

First of all,
Daniel: Sawyer is just stating that he has lost it mentally.

Sun: She is becoming more and more like Widmore and Ben. She is just ruthless.

Frank: He filled the Jack role just after the plane crash by bring all of the survivors together.

Here is a thought: What if Jin is married on the island? Also, what if Jin is the father of Miles? Since everything happens in circles on the island so it would be interesting if there is a Jin/Sun/new wife triangle.

#56. Posted by: AbeFroman at March 19, 2009 10:22 AM

@ #9. Plain Simple
"When the copilot died, I had a vague feeling that we have seen someone die in a similar way before on this show. Have we?"

List of deaths by impalement, anyone?
* Goodwin
* Frogurt/several redshirts felled by flaming arrows

#57. Posted by: Glostover at March 19, 2009 10:22 AM

@17 Posted Sheyla

I've got to respectfully disagree about Juliet. She is spectacularly devious, and I love her character. For example, she lets Sawyer think that he's calling the shots when it was really her plan to use the sub and put people on the list...which means she makes Jack the janitor (well-played: she's still pissed off about being dissed by him) and puts Kate with her in the garage (she will not be dissed twice: Freckles bears some watching). She pretends not to know who has arrived and acts pretty surprised. Poor Sawyer doesn't have a chance, and he's a professional con man.

No wonder Ben thinks that Juliet is his. She may be able to give Bug-Eyes a run for his money. The girl is creating plans within plans...I love it!

I had to crack up at Kate and Juliet's smiley reunion. I could just imagine some of the posters starting to chant-"Catfight! Catfight!" from home on their couches. Don't worry, guys, I'm sure you'll get your wish although I doubt mud would be involved. That would be tacky, but maybe there's some Dharma Jello for them to roll around in. Don't give up hope. They can't stay cool and smiley for long...and my money is on Juliet. Kate has gotten soft in the off-island years.

#58. Posted by: lardiea at March 19, 2009 10:24 AM

Did we not see Christian holding baby Aaron at one point, in the jungle? I think he's able to touch things (as we saw last night w the picture frame) but still not sure why he wasn't able to help Locke...

#59. Posted by: B Mar at March 19, 2009 10:29 AM

Anyone else think that this is the runway that Kate and Sawyer/James/Jimbo were building when they were on Other chain gang duty?

#60. Posted by: maggied at March 19, 2009 10:30 AM

@ 54. Posted by: ransomjackson
@ 39 Posted by Mizzed...

"I'm not saying that the Island is Eden..."

I think you damn well should say that it is. Now that's a theory that I can hang my hat on. So much better than Atlantis or Purgatory or a Farpoint Station-type of thing.

* * *

Now where's that darn tree...?

>>> Smokey blew it up.

#61. Posted by: welh at March 19, 2009 10:44 AM

I think Jack screwed things up when he asked the guy where he can find James LeFleur. The guy gave him an questionable glare as Jack walked away, I'm sure the guy will crackdown and expose the O6.

#62. Posted by: Q at March 19, 2009 10:47 AM

@ 61. Posted by: welh
@ 54. Posted by: ransomjackson
@ 39 Posted by Mizzed...

"I'm not saying that the Island is Eden..."

I think you damn well should say that it is. Now that's a theory that I can hang my hat on. So much better than Atlantis or Purgatory or a Farpoint Station-type of thing.

* * *

Now where's that darn tree...?

>>> Smokey blew it up.

>>>Then Horace (the tree-blower-upper) is Smokey?

#63. Posted by: add it up at March 19, 2009 10:49 AM

@62 Q:
Yeah, I thought the same thing. I expected him to follow Jack and listen in on his conversation with Sawyer/LaFleur (which they shouldn't have been having out in the open!)

#64. Posted by: Christina at March 19, 2009 10:50 AM

@ #44 Crispy Seaplanes - Jimbo amd Miles filling Sayid in about the time change in the van...

I don't think they had an opportunity to do that since Radzinsky was in the van with them. Sayid is a smart and resourceful guy...doesn't freak out when he realizes he's talking to Little Ben!

#65. Posted by: boodle at March 19, 2009 10:51 AM

@ 44. "I'm thinking Jimbo and Miles must have filled in Sayid on his whereabouts in time when they drove him back to Dharmaville."

I think that other dude was in the van too.

@ 52. "Ten bucks says that's not a sandwich in the brown paper bag lil' Ben passes Sayid"

Interesting!

#66. Posted by: 74 at March 19, 2009 10:52 AM

Hey, all. I've been totally incognito now for two weeks due to work and life, plus the fact that I never actually got to watch the "Le Fleur" episode. Now here is it the day after "Namaste" and AGAIN it has come to pass that I haven't had the opportunity to watch the episode. Very frustrating but I'm incredibly thankful for MAC's reviews and the ones from Doc Jensen. I truly feel like I've already seen "Le Fleur" and I'm going to try to watch "Namaste" this evening if possible to get back on track. In the meantime, I've got a few thoughts from the perspective of someone who only has read the posts:
1) Someone mentioned that when Juliet arrived someone said to her "you look just like her". Perhaps they were talking about Juliet herself! Since Juliet was already here in the past, with her now showing up in the future nobody would ever make the connection that not only did she look just like "her" she actually WAS her!
2) Regarding Sun, Ben, and Locke all ending up in the future (along with Frank, of course), there's going to be an explanation forthcoming, we just don't know what it is. I'm thinking Ben and Locke were placed together to reconcile with hugs and kisses (just kidding), while Sun has some bad karma that we're going to find out about in some flashbacks that is preventing her from rejoining Jin.
3) I've seen the video of Sun and the person behind her. I think it's a non-issue but I could be wrong. It certainly couldn't be Charlotte because she's dead. I know, the dead arise here, but it would appear that you had to be dead when you got here in order for you to arise. Of course, if Claire truly is dead then that blows my reasoning out of the water.
4) @MAC: Regarding Christian being able to take a picture off of the wall but not be able to pick Locke up off the ground, I don't think this is a case of Christian being unable to physically pick up Locke but rather a situation where Locke had to do everything himself for things to come to pass in the proper manner. Christian already told Locke that Ben turning the FDW did not constitute proper fulfillment of the requirements as laid out to Locke, there obviously have to be some rules involving Free Will for certain things to come to pass in regards to the island.
5) I agree, Hurley cannot lie for long. This is going to come back to bite them in the touchas some time in the future.
6) I'd like to hear more opinions about what is going on with Farraday (given that I haven't seen the episode yet (nor the previous one) and don't know first-hand what's really been shown to the viewing audience).
7) It does seem ironic at this point that it would appear the Losties are going to be the impetus for the purge, or certainly for some upcoming "war" as put forth by Widmore. Here's the thing about that war he said is coming. How would he know it was coming if he doesn't already know everything that is currently happening on the island? Could it be that he's able to see not just what's been happening but what will be happening? Where is he getting all of this information from and how does he know the who's and what's of the people that need(ed) to be on the island in order for the side he's rooting for to "win", if there really can be a winner in all of this? I'm sorry but there just seems to be a HUGE amount of information that we don't know about Widmore that we're going to find out about for him to know everything he apparently knows. It would seem at this point that both Widmore and Eleanor are the only characters that can truly see the island and everything that has and will happen on it at a level the rest of the characters cannot (dead people like Christian notwithstanding). I'm proposing that things (and our perspective of things) are going to come to an entirely new level with the close of this season, a level we haven't seen just yet and which will be a real game-changer in terms of how we see everything that is involved with the island.
8) I agree, from what I'm hearing about being discussed in this group, Juliet is SO in charge in the past. My impression is she's pulling all of the strings. I may need to rethink that after I get to watch the episode but it would seem she could very well be the hand inside Sawyer's puppet body.
9) I like the thought proposed that Jack actually becomes "Jackob". Wouldn't that be ironic. Only flaw I can see to that is that Jacob is supposedly a disembodied spirit or something similar, thus the reason Ben was so surprised when Locke could actually hear Jacob speak. If it were really Jack what kind of situation can anyone come up with that would turn him into an other-worldly being? Also, come to think of it, as I recall, Locke back in '74 said "Jacob sent me" to Richard Alpert and already Richard Alpert knew who that was so Jacob already existed back then, no? So he predates Jack by at a very minimum of 3 years on the island and probably much much more than that.

Ok, these are the quick rantings of someone who hasn't seen two episodes in a row now and wants to hang himself for Lost withdrawl. Hope they make some sense to everyone.

#67. Posted by: LostedIt at March 19, 2009 10:53 AM

Who's Amy? I've got a crazy idea. There was an Amelia (Lostpedia) at Juliet's book club who speaks to Ethan about fixing the plumbing. Amy can be a nickname of Amelia. Could they be one in the same?

Amelia (older lady at book club) was also rocking a scarf. Since she watched the plane crash of 815, could this be the reason Cindy is saved? Her sweet scarf like Amelia's/ Amy's?

#68. Posted by: lardiea at March 19, 2009 11:00 AM

→ 65. Posted by: boodle at March 19, 2009 10:51 AM

I thought they left Radzinsky at the Flame...

#69. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 19, 2009 11:07 AM

I believe the Muppet Show on one of the screens is a clue that the Losties are all just puppets being manipulated to create the endgame situation for Ben.

#70. Posted by: The Cobra at March 19, 2009 11:25 AM

GRAA Mac!

I see this episode as a bridge rather than as filler. We need those every now and then.

One thing that may be nothing but caught my eye: When Sun and Lapidus arrive in Otherville and are walking around, we see that some of the buildings have boards on the windows. Theoretically, that area has been abandoned for 3 years (before the mercenary attack, Ben ordered everyone to go to the temple). Who would have boarded the windows? Has someone been living there?

I know, it could be like looking for redheads in the background.

Wait...there WAS a redhead in the background?

#71. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at March 19, 2009 11:26 AM

I have not read the posts, but this is what's coming...

The Oceanic 6 are cumlatively going to trigger the extinction of the Dharma residents. Sayid is going to "make" Ben what he is today.

It's a vicious cycle

#72. Posted by: Teddy Alvin at March 19, 2009 11:30 AM

I think Radzinsky is a nut job. Which I find interesting in that, at least I thought, that the Dharma gang were suppose to be loving people, when in reality they're a bunch of nuts. They're all suspect in what is going to happen.

@ 52 "Ten bucks says that's not a sandwich in the brown paper bag lil' Ben passes Sayid."

Good observation. Ben is what he is, and I'm sure we'll see he was that way from a young age. I'm wondering if there's a gun in the bag.

I watched the link that Mac put up showing the figure in the background behind Sun. I'm not sure, but it's either Claire or Charlotte. Again, that's my guess. But, Claire would be my guess since she's been hanging with Jack's dad.


#73. Posted by: dk at March 19, 2009 11:36 AM

I enjoyed last night's episode.
Loved hearing our old Sawyerisms - and that Hurley missed them too.
What are the odds that Sawyer would have a sweatshirt in his closet big enough for Hugo!!!
I thought for a few moments that Juliet was going to leave Kate without an alibi - wanted to make her sweat just a little.
Loved Juliet's reaction to the return of Jack, Kate and Hugo - could see her brain working to figure it all out.
Ethan's mom still creeps me out, I would love to know more about why she and hubby numero uno were outside with the hostiles.
I noticed Smokey lurking in the doorway when Sun, Lapidus and Christian were looking at the picture. Was Ben trying to get back to the island so he could talk with Christian or meet up with Smokey or for other reasons?
Looking forward to next week

#74. Posted by: weepict at March 19, 2009 11:36 AM

I have a question? I'm watching the Web-Cast of last nights show and I noticed that Sawyer has a "star" in the middle of their Dharma patch. Has anyone seen that before? Or is it just because he's in the security gang.

#75. Posted by: dk at March 19, 2009 11:44 AM

Quick Question: Are the 'Others' dead because Dharmaville is empty? I know that Ben sent them to the Orchid at the end of Season 4. Did Smokey get rid of them also?

#76. Posted by: AbeFroman at March 19, 2009 11:48 AM

Mac . . .

I think you need some up-to-date screen shots of our losties in your sidebar.

#77. Posted by: davidrh at March 19, 2009 11:50 AM

@ #69 Crispy Seaplanes

I have to re-watch, but I thought Radzinsky stormed out of the Flame after them and said something about going with them then. And...I could swear that he was in the passenger seat when they arrived at the New Arrival BBQ. Could be mistaken...

#78. Posted by: boodle at March 19, 2009 11:55 AM

Maybe Sun didn't foom because she wasn't on "the list"

Favorite line, when Sun told Frank "I lied" when she said she trusted Ben. Sounded like something Ben would say.

#79. Posted by: iheartsawyer at March 19, 2009 12:05 PM

When the recruits come to the island, are they coming from 2007? They are coming from the "real" world, wouldn't anyone ask why it's 1977?

#80. Posted by: Rudy at March 19, 2009 12:05 PM

@ #74 weepict - Smokey lurking...

Yes...I keep forgetting to bring that up. There was a heck of a windstorm brewing outside when they were looking at the picture. I thought it significant when it happened, yet no mention of it...

I also believe that although last night's episode lacked something, it is important because it sets things in motion. The dangling of what happened to Faraday, the baby that is Ethan (and I think he is special too and may be the reason Ben sent him to the 815 crash), the neat and tidy placement of the O6'ers into the Dharma community, Sun's and Frank's Excellent Adventure... The scenes for next week's episode looks like a doozy!!
Anyone know for certain the # of episodes left for the season?

#81. Posted by: boodle at March 19, 2009 12:05 PM

Very entertaining Ep as always, but agree, it had a few flaws.

Juliet - obviously outed as a Medical Doctor and not a mechanic... think that might raise a few eyebrows. And she marches in to save Kate's cover and her word is taken as gospel.

Would think the next several episodes will certainly be the beginning and unraveling of Sawyer's long con.

#82. Posted by: IslandHopper at March 19, 2009 12:06 PM

@24, PreacherOnun: Perhaps the Losties will also be responsible for RA temporarily losing his fancy clothes and having to dress up in rags when he encounters Li'l Ben? Or does/did he want to conform to the view of 'wild hostile indigenous'? Nah... in the previous episode he came to Dharmaville all dressed up.


Or did Ben's meeting with RA take place before '77?
***************

@35, GatorGal: "What in the world made Sawyer and group assume that the time travel back to the 70s was worldwide? And, more importantly, now that Jack and crew are back on the island, why can't they figure out that back in the real world (off island) time is regular and it is indeed 2007? I am confused. Befuddled."

There's no reason to believe at all that 2007 is the off-Island time corresponding to on-Island 1977. Why do you think that? Remember that the four fooming O6'ers ---the 4 Foo6--- did foom back in time on the plane.

#83. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 19, 2009 12:11 PM

@46 mac revealed:

>Sledgeweb has video of the woman seen behind Sun:

>http://is.gd/o0Z8

Thanks for that. The whole image is totally lost on 4:3 standard TV screens.

I was beginnning to think everyone was crazy.

#84. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 19, 2009 12:17 PM

If Ben is a child/teen now, then his friend (I belive her name was Annie) should be around somewhere. I think the scene of them on the swings when she gave him the doll of herself was when he was a bit younger than 14, but still she should be around. I wonder if they will "surface" her soon.

Is it just a coincidence that the same people currently in 1977 Darmaville from the original plane (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley) are the same people on the list when Michael exchanged them for Walt? Of course Hurley got sent back to camp to deliver the message. And Sayid was not on the list but yet he is in 1977, although he is not in Darmaville but a prisoner.

Since Ethan is part of Darma, why would he still be on Ben's side after the purge if Ben killed his Dad (Horace), mom, and everyone else he knew and loved?

#85. Posted by: BEMH at March 19, 2009 12:20 PM

@50 Christina asked:

>You can see Kate's on her jumpsuit in the shot where they are taking their "New Recruits" picture. If you have a really good resolution TV, you can see it. I don't, however, so I couldn't read it, so if anyone can read it, can you please post it here?
Thanks!

Kate's is a wrench on a dark blue jumpsouit, just like Juliet's. She's assigned to the motor pool.

Hurley's pocket says "Chef" and his logo is just the word "Dharma" in the center oof the symbol.

When did symbols start to become 'occupation' indicators as opposed to the original 'location' (i.e. which station) motif?

#86. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 19, 2009 12:25 PM

@53 welh misconstrued:

>The Lost time-plot construct is a total mess. When the FDW was turned by Ben, the island moved in time and space. And we were told that time was linear, like a river, flowing through space. But this episode destroys that concept because there are two islands in two different times but in the same space/location.

Says who? Lapidus and Sun cross from Hydra island, 2007, to main island, 2007. No two different times there that I can see.

I don't think anyone's ever stated the island moves in time. Mrs. Hawking said it moved in space, and she could prdict the *time* that it would be at a particular location.


>Also, the integration of the O6 into Dharma was brutally, poorly executed. Dharma was paranoid about security; poor paperwork would not change the fact that the sub captain would have counted his passengers - - and now there are 3 extra people at the recruitment party?

And the way he communicates this is the manifest, which Sawyer and Julet have forged additions to.

#87. Posted by: Cecil at March 19, 2009 12:31 PM

@69 Crispy Seaplanes thought:

>I thought they left Radzinsky at the Flame...

Radzinsky: Then I'm coming with you to talk to Horace. This is a mistake.

Sawyer: Fine.

#88. Posted by: Cecil at March 19, 2009 12:41 PM

@70 The Cobra observed:

>I believe the Muppet Show on one of the screens is a clue that the Losties are all just puppets being manipulated to create the endgame situation for Ben.

And just to the right of that, it looked like Jerry Dunphy, KABC anchorman of the period, and some think a role model/inspiration (along with George Putnam) for Ted Baxter on on the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

#89. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 19, 2009 12:44 PM

@87. Posted by: Cecil

My point is that the 316 flight intersected the island at a specific time and place. Yes, Sun and Frank are in 2007 on the main island, but the other O6 crew is on the main island in 1977 in the same place (ex, the canoes on 815 beach).

In a consistent mythology, the O6 should have been treated the same when 316 arrived at the island.

#90. Posted by: welh at March 19, 2009 12:45 PM

A thought on the comment that smokey kill the first pilot because he was not Frank.
The pilot told Jack they were 1000 miles off course. Maybe he was working for widmore/Ben and was susposed to fly the plane over those certain coordinates.

#91. Posted by: Steve at March 19, 2009 12:46 PM

@73 dk posted:

>But, Claire would be my guess since she's been hanging with Jack's dad.

Her dad also, of course.


#92. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 19, 2009 12:46 PM

@76 AbeFroman asked:

>Quick Question: Are the 'Others' dead because Dharmaville is empty? I know that Ben sent them to the Orchid at the end of Season 4. Did Smokey get rid of them also?

Ben sent them to "The Temple" which we're assuming - without real proof - is co-located with the Orchid. I'm guessing they're still around, somewhere.

#93. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 19, 2009 12:50 PM

@ BEMH #85
it just a coincidence that the same people currently in 1977 Darmaville from the original plane (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley) are the same people on the list when Michael exchanged them for Walt? Of course Hurley got sent back to camp to deliver the message. And Sayid was not on the list but yet he is in 1977, although he is not in Darmaville but a prisoner.

Jin's been accepted into Dharma 1977, but was not on the list.

#94. Posted by: marissa at March 19, 2009 12:53 PM

Okay-
So Juliette saves two lives as she delivered breach baby Ethan for Amy and Horace...then goes right back under the hood of a car in her grease monkey Dharma jumpsuit? No way! How did that slip by unnoticed by the Dharma Powers-that-be?

BTW- I loved the episode.

#95. Posted by: Sillygirl0630 at March 19, 2009 1:01 PM

By any chance is Pierre Chang's middle-name Francis? That dude makes KILLER lettuce wraps!

#96. Posted by: Steve in Omaha at March 19, 2009 1:01 PM

OK, somebody explain this one:

Sun and Frank disembark on the island in the dark, using frank's flashlight. Sun and Frank's attention is drawn to the assembly hall by a light inside. When Christian opens the door, he's backlit by a bright interior.

But seconds later when they follow him inside, there's no light, Christian has borrowed Frank's flashlight to find the correct picture, and now there's light streaming in from outside though the boarded up windows.

What gives with the light?
____

Additionally: I don't see any unambiguous shots of Smokey in that scene. Some mist swirls through the door when it blows open, and we certainly saw the tree move earlier, but nothing in the interior scene leaps up and shouts Smokey to me.

#97. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 19, 2009 1:03 PM

@82
Sorry- Didn't read that before I posted!
Great minds...

#98. Posted by: Sillygirl0630 at March 19, 2009 1:08 PM

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/missingpieces/index?pn=index

Im watching the lost missing pieces on abc site. Interesting!

#99. Posted by: grapekat at March 19, 2009 1:10 PM

@85, BEMH

I believe Jiggy made that observation three weeks ago, and he is right on!

#100. Posted by: Sillygirl0630 at March 19, 2009 1:11 PM

I don't think that kate/jack are going to be responsible for leaking any information.

I believe that Sayid is going to find a way to escape and in doing so reveal everyone's true identity.

#101. Posted by: Michaelmvp at March 19, 2009 1:23 PM

I'm wondering - what would Pierre Chang, who has been investigating time 'displacement' and managing to achieve 1/10th of a second results, what would his reaction be to finding out that thre are 7-8 time travellers right in his own camo?

Or maybe (we can't be certain here) his investigations are in the (his) future and brought about by the discovery of these time travellers. Maybe this is what sparked his investications in the first place, learning that is was indeed possible, leading to the 'accidental' time displacements in the future.

One more example of the Worm Ouroboros nature of the plot? The future being the cause of past actions that result in the future actions that cause the past actions, that...

#102. Posted by: Cecil at March 19, 2009 1:32 PM

re: Claire in the background? Not so sure. The t-shirted bosom says "Full-Tilt Poker.com"

re: Favo deleted scene. Young Ben hands Sayid his sam-itch. Sayid replies. Pardon me, but do you have any Grey Poupon?

#103. Posted by: MorBid0 at March 19, 2009 1:38 PM

@93: Cecil Rose - I think we came to the opposite conclusion, that the Orchid and the Temple are in distinctly different locations.

#104. Posted by: LostedIt at March 19, 2009 1:55 PM

@99: grapekat - The "Missing Pieces" episodes is what I cited a number of weeks back as possible proof that Locke would indeed rise from the dead once he returned to the episode. That theory panned out. I've no doubt that some of the other episodes on that site will in fact have direct relevance and provide important clues to things that will be revealed in future Lost episodes. The one about WAAaaaaalllt comes to mind. It left an indelible mark in my memory though at this time I see no clue as to how it will be utilized within the storyline in a future Lost episode. Some of the others are likely filler but I've no doubt at least one more of the "Missing Pieces" episodes will turn out to be important.

#105. Posted by: LostedIt at March 19, 2009 2:02 PM

The appearance of "Dharmaville" or "New-Otherton" was very confusing to me when Sun and Lapidus showed up. If we are in 2007 then shouldn't that building look like an Others building? Why would they have continued to keep Dharma photos on the wall. If the Others inhabited that place since the purge why would they have kept all of those Dharma processing/incoming signs hanging up? Have we seen the inside of this building post-Dharma before? If so where those things up? The place was a shambles which at first I thought was due to Smokey's attack on the frosties. As someone pointed out in a previous post--who boarded up the windows and why? Now I am beginning to wonder if the re-arrival of Jack and crew has in fact changed time/history (which runs contrary to Faraday's explanations) and we are looking at an alternate outcome for Dharma that was not due to the Others purge. Maybe it altered things and is in a shambles b/c of the war. I have no idea if that made sense.

When will we being to see if Ben starts "remembering" meeting Sayid just as Desmond suddenly "remembered" Faraday?? Or has Ben been remembering these things for the past 3 years off island as Sawyer etc.. have entrenched themselves into Dharma.

No question in my mind that Ben has already met Alpert in the woods and is working for the Others. As someone else said that probably isn't a sandwich in that bag.

Sawyer is the best--I love that he gave that pansy Jack a slap-down.

Great review Mac--best Mac Line: when Juliet found out the baby was Ethan she threw up a little in her mouth!! Too Funny.

#106. Posted by: benlinusrocks at March 19, 2009 2:02 PM

Oops. Typo in previous post. Obviously I meant "...Locke would indeed rise from the dead once he returned to the island" not "episode"...

#107. Posted by: LostedIt at March 19, 2009 2:03 PM

So, uh, what happened to Rose? Where is she during the entire mess?

#108. Posted by: schiano at March 19, 2009 2:11 PM

Michael Emerson was on The Bonnie Hunt Show this morning. She let three members of her crew ask him questions. They were great questions and answers.

Question 1: Who are you rooting for in the man of faith vs. man of science struggle?

M.E. I have shot more scenes with John Locke so I find myself more wrapped up in his journey. I think the writers mean for faith to prevail.

Question 2: How do you want the show to resolve all of the mysteries?

M.E. I wouldn't even venture to imagine what the ending will be because the writers are so much cleverer than I. But what I hope for it is that it is sensational. One of those that makes you go, "Oh my god, it has been right before my very eyes the whole time." That would be sweet, wouldn't it?

Question 3: Why has the island rejected Ben and chosen Locke as its new leader?

M.E. Wow, I haven't even considered that. The island is a demanding master. Ben has sinned on some level. Perhaps the sin of pride?

He also tells Bonnie Hunt that he thinks Ben is a wonderfully ambiguous character and that he likes to believe, possibly naively, that in the end Ben will be a good guy or even a hero.

#109. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 19, 2009 2:14 PM

As always, more questions than answers.

Why aren't Jin, Radzinsky and Sawyer asking Sayid about the handcuffs???

I can't help but think that Sayid and Ben are in cahoots here....that Ben helped Sayid escape the plane crash in order to get himself captured.

And what about Little Ben and Big Ben being on the same Island now?

And why wouldn't the plane crash show up on Radzinsky's radar?

Amy and Horace Goodspeed name their baby Ethan. The Ethan we knew was Ethan Rom. Hmmmm.

I do think this ep merely sets up the next one. GRAA, Mac.

#110. Posted by: lovelost at March 19, 2009 2:25 PM

And what about Little Ben and Big Ben being on the same Island now?'

They're not. Young Ben is on the main island. Adult Ben is on the small island with the runway.

And why wouldn't the plane crash show up on Radzinsky's radar?

I think because it didn't land yet. The plane landed in 2007.

#111. Posted by: 74 at March 19, 2009 2:38 PM

benlinusrocks

I was thinking the same exact thing. Last time we saw othersville, they had completely taken over the complex. Why would the others apparently leave that building untouched? I do believe that the timeline on the island has changed now. But if that's the case, do we disregard what we have seen already?

Lets look at Lost as a highway. Regardless of what lane you take, the ending result is going to be the same everytime. I think that events/timelines have changed but the end result will be the same. There will be an Incident on the island and the purge is going to take place!!

#112. Posted by: Michaelmvp at March 19, 2009 2:42 PM

→ 110. Posted by: lovelost
I can't help but think that Sayid and Ben are in cahoots here....that Ben helped Sayid escape the plane crash in order to get himself captured.

And what about Little Ben and Big Ben being on the same Island now?

And why wouldn't the plane crash show up on Radzinsky's radar?
=============
Any chance you missed an episode? (or four?). I am guessing that Sayid did the time travel thing back to 1977 with Kate, Hugo and Jack. Suckees from first class, as it were.

Frank, Sun and Ben weren't time sucked to 1977. So the two Ben's haven't crossed swords and Sayid never got help from Big Ben and Radzinsky never had a radar signal because there was no Ajira flight to radar in 1977.

#113. Posted by: ANON2 at March 19, 2009 2:43 PM

I have been surfing lostpedia.com and found a transcript of the video shown at 2008 Comic Con.

It confirms Pierre Chang's name and that he is using a "pinhole" to send a message 30 years into the future. All with the help of none other than Daniel Faraday. Chang asks to have the DI restarted. He lets us know "unfortunately, my colleagues and I are all dead [static] a kind of... [static], of violent purge. One that we are, apparently, powerless to escape". He also says "Perhaps you'll be able to find a way to save us, to change the past and to... [static] Please, please! You have to stop what's about to happen, you can't let us..."

http://tinyurl.com/c2yhfb

Apparently Daniel is alive and working with Chang. He has also told Chang about the future and the Purge. The Comic Con clip they showed the year before was the Orchid video was appeared in that season's finale and was very important. Interesting...

#114. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at March 19, 2009 2:46 PM

When Cesear awakens Iliana after the crash, I believe she mumbles "Sarah."
Wasn't that the name of Jack's ex? What should we make of that little twist?

#115. Posted by: GatorGal at March 19, 2009 3:03 PM

Here's an interesting thought that hasn't been brought up so far:

The purge occurred when they released the poisonous gas that killed everyone not protected by a gas mask. But there are TWO islands, the main one and the one holding some of the other stations. One would have to presume that the gas wasn't going to travel across the waters and kill off the people on the other island. So what happened to those people?

This just occurred to me today when people were all talking about the purge.

#116. Posted by: LostedIt at March 19, 2009 3:13 PM

@ 86 Cecil Rose: Thanks for the insight into the occupations. I didn't even see Hurley's.

#117. Posted by: Christina at March 19, 2009 3:23 PM

115 - GatorGal

I think Iliana said Sayid. She looks at the seat where he was sitting as she says it.

#118. Posted by: iheartsawyer at March 19, 2009 3:24 PM

→ 115. Posted by: GatorGal
When Cesear awakens Ilana after the crash, I believe she mumbles "Sarah."
Wasn't that the name of Jack's ex? What should we make of that little twist?
========
Sarah is the ex Mrs. Shephard. Yes. But Ilana says "Jarrah?" - as in the last name of her prisoner, Sayid, whom she was escorting, and immediately turned to check on when she got the 'no, I am Caesar' line.

#119. Posted by: ANON2 at March 19, 2009 3:27 PM

@110 lovelost asked:

>I can't help but think that Sayid and Ben are in cahoots here....that Ben helped Sayid escape the plane crash in order to get himself captured.

A little hard, inasmuch as Sayid and Ben were separated by thirty years at that point.

>And why wouldn't the plane crash show up on Radzinsky's radar?

Why should a plane crash in 2007 show up on radar in 1977?

#120. Posted by: Cecil at March 19, 2009 3:39 PM

If Sun's blind pursuit of Jin (following Ben into the woods, leading Frank into dark, smokie infested woods) doesn't get her and someone else killed, I think maybe we have left all realism behind. I can accept time travel, but actions that stupid with no consequence, come on?

#121. Posted by: mtncbn at March 19, 2009 4:16 PM

Oh, and kudos to the prop department!! They got appropriate vintage walkie-talkies, they had to edit in static etc, cause none of them worked anymore!, but they looked right.

#122. Posted by: mtncbn at March 19, 2009 4:26 PM

After Juliet picks up the baby and put's it in Amy's arms, it's so obviously a doll! :-D

#123. Posted by: Winne at March 19, 2009 4:56 PM

OK, I haven't seen this discussed yet so let me throw it out there.

Before the O6 were foomed off of 316 it was nighttime, or at least pitch black, as can be seen thru the cockpit windshield in several scenes. Once the foom occurs, it is now bright and sunny blue skies and white fluffy clouds. Clearly, some time shift occurred here. But just how much of a shift was it???

SO, why do we assume that the 316'rs including Locke, Lapidus, Sun, and Ben are in 2007, the "current timeline"? From the looks of Dharmatown and the Hydra office Ceasar was in, it could be several more years, even a decade or two into the future.

Just a thought...

#124. Posted by: BELost at March 19, 2009 4:59 PM

@ #115, #118, #119

I thought Iliana said "Sarah" also when she was waking up. She is unconscious from a plane crash...waking up in a daze...makes me sense that one would utter the name of a loved one or with one you are familiar. I don't think she would utter the name of a prisoner she is escorting... Just my thought on that. Hey, BTW...where was that plane going again...? Where would she be taking Sayid as a prisoner...? Maybe to meet up with the young ben...?

Which leads me to suspect there's something more with the whole Sayid and young Ben meeting. Ben asked, "What's your name?" Sayid answers, "Sayid". "What's yours?", asked Sayid. Ben answers, "I'm Ben". Almost as if to identify himself, not just letting Sayid know his name. I don't know what I'm saying...becoming a bit paranoid at this point...

#125. Posted by: boodle at March 19, 2009 5:07 PM

@124: BELost - Regarding the nighttime/daytime issue, I've got two things:
1) They obviously landed and have all since disembarked the plane and been taking inventory of their situation, etc. This all didn't happen in 5 minutes. It's got to be at least hours, if not days later that we're first being shown all of them on the beach, etc.
2) Even if this were in fact just an hour later or so, it's already been demonstrated with the helicopter that day/night don't necessarily coincide on and off of the island. Even if things are roughly close to in sync they're definitely not exactly in sync. Remember the first time the helicopter left the island? They left in stormy night time skies and landed on the freighter in slightly cloudy daylight. The same could be being demonstrated here as well. I would tend to go with my item #1 above thought.

#126. Posted by: LostedIt at March 19, 2009 5:18 PM

@ #126 LostedIt

There was definitely something about the daylight/night thing before the plane crash landed. When the co-pilot was telling Lapidus about Hurley being on the flight and the scenes of the first class section, it was definitely night time. Then came the turbulance and then the Foom and then immeditaely when it was discovered that the power was out, it was daylight. It was bright, blue skies with pillowy clouds out of the window of the cockpit. The year hasn't been confirmed on the island of the crash. It is going to prove to be significant, I'm pretty sure.

#127. Posted by: boodle at March 19, 2009 5:25 PM

@126 If you watch the epi again, while the plane is still in the air, the sky switches from pitch black to bright and sunny immed following the foom event.


Other things of note:

mac, I think Hurley is wearing Sawyer's bulldog sweater when he escorts them to orientation.

Many are thinking that the former 815'rs are going to be responsible for the eventual purge. If so, doesn't that have to take place 10 or more years from 1977 where we 'are' currently? Ben is an adult when he gases the island and he's no older than 14 in 1977 right?

Did Smokey materialize as the mysterious redhead once he entered the delapidated rec room with Sun, CS, and Lapidus? Some have said that only Smokey has only posed as people that died before reaching the island but if we're thinking he's appeared off-island that might not be true. If he can assume any dead persons form, could it be Charlotte--smokey version on the couch?

@35 - gatorgal, I think that only our cast of characters (what's left of the 815'rs, Jules, freighter folk, etc.) are the only ones doing the time hopping. Not the island, the island folk or off island folks.

So the sub pulls up with off-island folks from 1977 because the only ones who've jumped are the Losties. Why that is the case, only the island (and TPTB) knows...

Good work people, keep it coming!

#128. Posted by: BELost at March 19, 2009 5:38 PM

One more thought I left off, I don't think young Ben believes Sayid is a hostile. I think he's already met up with RA and knows the hostiles and that Sayid isn't one of them.

Either that, or Ben thinks he can curry favor with RA by helping a hostile escape and rejoin the clan.

This show has me twisting in the wind once again... AHHH, the life and confusing vagaries of a Lost addict!

#129. Posted by: BELost at March 19, 2009 5:49 PM

I don't think anyone's addressed the question that Cecil Rose posed above (forgot the post #) about how when Christian came to the door to introduce himself to Sun and Frank, there was light in the room behind him, then when they went in, it was dark, and they had to use a flashlight. I think that they went to another building that had no electricity, because Christian said, "Come with me".

#130. Posted by: Christina at March 19, 2009 5:51 PM

@43: I understand exactly what you are saying...like wouldn't they have crashed/died...so how would they know they would need a runway...or something like that. I just try to not think too much about the time travel. I just let the writers spoonfeed me, lol.

For everyone who is asking why Sun didn't foom...Mrs. Hawking warned them there could be unpredictable results. That's pretty unpredictable.

I thought it was hilarious that based on the aptitude tests Jack was going to be a janitor...that was a joke from the writers....he's a neurosurgeon for goodness sake!

They need to tell us about Penny/Desmond already, it's making me mad!

Phil is definitely evil. Is he an other?

The actor who plays Sayid did an awesome job...he looked confused and sad as all get out!

Why was Radzkinsky calling-or attempting to call-the shots when Jin and Sawyer are both security people and he isn't? That was stupid.

When Sun and Frank saw Smokey take out the tree or w/e it did...Sun lied to him...why? She has to know at least something about the smoke monster?

Agree that Smokey is Christian...and that they were referring to Juliet when they said, "she looks just like her."

#131. Posted by: Shana Roberson at March 19, 2009 6:00 PM

The Sun-Frank-Shepard meeting was a foreshadow that the 815ers have changed their original 2004 timeline by staying in 1974-1977, which in turn changes the island history dramatically.

When ghost Christian goes to the photo wall to find the 1977 recruits, there is only one more class photo, 1978. The inference is that Dharma gets wiped out in 1978 (no more recruits), and not in Ben's 1992 purge.

Chang's original Swan orientation film from 1980 states the Hatch was constructed after the Incident to discharge EM every 108 minutes. In 1977, Radzinsky, a security guard, is creating the secret plans and model of the facility before it is needed (?).
We are not aware of any EM incidents every 108 minutes during 1974-1977. Unless, Radz is reconstructing the Hatch in new 1977 from his 2000-01 memories. And this is why the intersecting time jumps are getting too tangled.

The speculation is that prior to the 815ers becoming Dharma, the Incident was contained; now that Sawyers group and O6 are Dharma 77, the Incident is not contained and the DI is wiped out.

If Dharma is wiped out before the Hatch is built, then there is no 815 crash in 2004. It would also mean Widmore could not find the island as it skipped every 108 minutes without the protocol.

#132. Posted by: welh at March 19, 2009 6:27 PM

The young Ben being verbally abused all the time is curious about the others and wants to run away, and sees his early chance to learn about what’s outside the fence. Now a stupid guard might let a boy give a prisoner a sandwich without looking inside the bag, but he's proven incompetent by not looking or caring if the Boy shut the door. Sayid might not know yet he’s in 1977, but he knows he’s in the past based on what he sees with Dharma.


********** POSSIBLE SPOILER **********

Sawyer says to Sayid that he’s on his own. Wants to takes him to the Others. But Sayid wants to kill the young Ben. He gets away from Sawyer, but is caught by Horace and Randinski and he tells the men that they are doomed. Sayid escapes again with a gun (how many times do we have now), is going to shoot the young Ben, wounding him, Juliet will help him, patch him up, maybe an operation, Jack resists helping-- probably argues against it. Ben falls in love with Juliet (remembering her 1977 name) as the one who saved him.

I have heard one major character will die by the end of the season. I think it will be Faraday or Juliet.

********** END ***********


That's why Ben was obsessed with Juliet in 2004. Later when Ben recruits (sees her picture) Dr. Juliet in Miami, I would say he does not know that it's the same person. We've heard the "She looks just like her. . . " line. So definitely send that Bus to kill Juliet's ex-husband. Get her here!

And everyone in the Others group are brainwashed in some way (proven by Smokey’s hole and the Frenchies). Maybe to be happy by Jacob, but it does not work on everyone. Jacob “leads” Smoky, but can’t do everything. Can’t kill all the bad guys. I’m sure Jacob was against The Purge, but could not prevent it as he is trapped by an anomaly.

I think those in 1977 can't change anything and "wherever" Faraday is, all was supposed to happen. Faraday will find a way back with time-travel (to the Island 2007) and they will all get united-- maybe the final episode this season ending with Faraday being the hero who dies.

How old is the young Ben? He probably will not remember all the faces he met as a child (do you?), but Jack, Kate & Hurley are using their real names (Did you think this one through Sawyer?) I think all the Losties in Dharma’s false clothing will be leaving soon. Sayid spilling the beans, thinking he needs to, or maybe his arm is really chopped off, the threat of the other being cut off ----might be HIS only motivator. Then we will finally see the Others/Hostiles story in 1977. (And the Other’s story in 2007 too, it’s time)

Sawyer wants to protect what he's got until The Purge in 1992. But he'll go back to the present maybe because someone he loves who is blonde dies.

Jacob is trapped, but has some powers. I still think Jacob is Locke who went back in time, became an early leader of the natives, (calling himself Jacob at first to them and it stuck), Thinks maybe now he really is Jacob, got trapped in an anomaly, does have a lot of powers, but later needs/ uses Smoky, Richard, and all the ghosts (Christian & Clair) to guide things along to his rescue. The ultimate goal is to get himself un-trapped. So, maybe the current Locke gets sent to the distant past in this year’s season finally.

Season 6--- the war on the 2007 Island and it might lead to a close call on destroying the world. What happened to Locke when he goes “way back” in time. The Black Rock story—I think it’s still Richard that lands there, meets a trapped Jacob. But Jacob does help them, becomes beloved.

In the 6th season series finally, how about Jacob, now Locke The Great (the one that's all knowing by now), is freed, definitely 100% special now and knowing it. With ALL powers now, simply grants everyone of his friends one wish. Most get to go home and they do. Some stay. The island now 100% safe & happy—all the ones not on The List are gone from the Island or dead. End.

#133. Posted by: Bus Said at March 19, 2009 6:31 PM

re: the nighttime/daytime crashing.
I find this amazing detail to cover for/reinvent the past. I was a very persistent pain about the daylight crash of 815 when they had left Australia(2 or 3pm), flew several hours easterly, (into the darkness) and then crashed in midday.
Kudos to TPTB!!

#134. Posted by: mtncbn at March 19, 2009 6:38 PM

I thought at first that the Locke is Jacob thing does not fit as Locke was the first Smoky tried to pull down into his well/ hole. But it does work as maybe if/when Locke goes alone into the distant past, he loses his memory. Maybe the natives give him the name Jacob. So, in the way in the future Jacob/Locke finally sees Lostie Locke (himself) after the crash and heals him, he wants to pull him down using smoky at first to find out his own real name & story, but then realizes this is supposed to happen and Jacob/Locke helps and leads Lostie Locke in order to free himself. So, Jacob/Locke still does not know the future!!

#135. Posted by: Bus Said at March 19, 2009 6:47 PM

39. Posted by: Mizzed

Right now I like it! but I am only starting to read the posts and need to see the apparition you all say is in the closing moments. Be Back soon


Great review mac!

#136. Posted by: berkyo at March 19, 2009 7:14 PM

→ 131. Posted by: Shana Roberson
I thought it was hilarious that based on the aptitude tests Jack was going to be a janitor...that was a joke from the writers....he's a neurosurgeon for goodness sake!

------
Me thinks Sawyer might have entered the data for Jack's Dharma aptitude tests.
"This guy is a moron!"

#137. Posted by: IslandHopper at March 19, 2009 7:34 PM

fyi, I was Steve this season until another Steve posted recently, so now I'm 74. I'm the Steve that called the runway deal a few weeks ago, in case it matters.

BELost - I like the way you're thinking. Frank and the other pilot definitely pulled a 'WTF?' when it was suddenly daytime after the turbulence struck.

Hurly was wearing a bulldog sweatshirt.

I agree there is no evidence that says flight 316 landed in 2007.

And, good point about the purge. Ben was an adult when he pulled that.

#138. Posted by: 74 at March 19, 2009 7:37 PM

@138 "I agree there is no evidence that says flight 316 landed in 2007."

In the first 5 minutes it goes from the plain crash, to a Black screen with the words "Thirty Years Earlier." DO the math. Some of you missed that, it was right before the HUGS.

#139. Posted by: Bus Said at March 19, 2009 7:59 PM

I'm finding it hard to equate Baby Ethan with Other Ethan.

First of all, the actor was around 39 yrs old when the show started, and Baby Ethan would have been 27 yrs old in 2004.

And there is this dialogue from "Stranger in a Strange Land":

JACK: I'd be more impressed with you people if you had a good surgeon.

BEN: We had an excellent surgeon, Jack. His name was Ethan.

Can a 27 yr old be an excellent surgeon? Seems like he'd still be in residency, right?

Just nitpicking, I guess, but the timing seems off.

And here's the Missing Pieces Mobisode with Ethan:

tinyurl.com/caw6r3

Was the dead wife real or just a way to gain Jack's sympathy?

There must be more to the story.

#140. Posted by: Clementine at March 19, 2009 8:06 PM

GRAA Mac!

@53 welh

I don't see why you believe that the island is in the same location in 2007 as in 1977. Don't forget, Kate, Jack, Sayid and Hurley got foomed before the plane landed, who knows where they are. Still don't understand HOW they got foomed but that's a whole other nosebleed....

Anybody else notice that the plane went from night to day before landing...same little time differential as before...

#141. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 19, 2009 8:25 PM

We really haven't received any confirmation when the second group is. Maybe they jumped in time as well.

Juliet's hair looks great!!!

When someone makes a comment to Juliet about she and Sawyer having a baby, she looks wistful. Perhaps they will, and she is "remembering" it.

More later!

#142. Posted by: meg at March 19, 2009 8:38 PM

@ 83 Plain Simple

Yes there is because the first time in the epi we went from Sun / Lapidus / Ben to 1977 it was written "30 years earlier" in the screen

#143. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 19, 2009 8:39 PM

→ 52. Posted by: Glostover

Ten bucks says that's not a sandwich in the brown paper bag lil' Ben passes Sayid.


AH! Very good! I like this.


#144. Posted by: berkyo at March 19, 2009 8:40 PM

58 lardiea
it was really her plan to use the sub and put people on the list...which means she makes Jack the janitor

It may be her idea but the test that the 3 who chickened out in "portland" and did not come was what put K,J and H in their Dharma jobs.

#145. Posted by: berkyo at March 19, 2009 8:49 PM

@ 139 - thanks for reminding me about that. I forgot about the '30 Years Earlier' splash screen.

#146. Posted by: 74 at March 19, 2009 8:53 PM

84. Posted by: Cecil Rose

thanks for that. The whole image is totally lost on 4:3 standard TV screens.

I was beginning to think everyone was crazy.

Yeah! so is this some kind of discrimination against us old tv owners????? I mean owners of old tv's - right Cecil?;)

#147. Posted by: berkyo at March 19, 2009 9:01 PM

I watched the part with Sun, Frank, and Christian again. This time I did notice something coming through the door that could be Smokey, but I didn't see a woman('s face). What I did notice was that when Christian said that Jin was with her friends, sun replied "What friends." Ohoh. bad Sun, bad. She's going dark places.

****

No one seems to have remarked yet that they addressed the "no one recognized the O6 on the plane" complaint that could be heard a few weeks back on this blog. :)

****

@36, 74 wrote: "Anyone hear the 'numbers' coming over the radio right before the plane came down?"

Nope. Did they?

#148. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 19, 2009 9:04 PM

Many, many posts about the timelines. TPTB have been very consistent over 5 years that events are controlled by destiny and any attempt at altering the future will be course-corrected. Why would they change that now?

We've seen that individuals may loop or repeat sections of their life, but the end result will always be the same. There may be an endless number of individual loops each interacting and altering events, but certain conditions and conclusions will never change.

Why doesn't Sun foom to 1977? Because her destiny requires her to impact events in 2007. Why does Sayid foom to 1977? Because events require him to do so.

If Lost changes the rules of predestined events now, the entire plot will collapse faster than a Heroes-Terminator reunion special.

There are viewers who are still confused about the current dual plot lines in 1977 and 2007. Can you imagine the chaos if they started rearranging key events already shown?

@132/welh: "Chang's original Swan orientation film from 1980 states the Hatch was constructed after the Incident to discharge EM every 108 minutes. In 1977, Radzinsky, a security guard, is creating the secret plans and model of the facility before it is needed (?)."

Actually, the Swan was built to study the "unique electromagnetic fluctuations" in the late 70's- Radzinsky is clearly more than a security guard- he is working in their primary communications facility and is in charge of designing the Swan.

The "button" protocol was established after the incident, but the Swan was already constructed when this occurred- in fact, the experiments here probably caused the original incident.

@133/Bus Said: "How old is the young Ben? He probably will not remember all the faces he met as a child (do you?), but Jack, Kate & Hurley are using their real names (Did you think this one through Sawyer?)"

Ben isn't a child in 1977, he's a teenager, and he's living in a tiny, secluded community. Would he really forget faces and names that he sees everyday?

more Bus Said: "Jacob, now Locke The Great (the one that's all knowing by now)"

To make the case of Locke=Jacob, you have to explain away the Dalai Lama style test Richard administered to him as a child where he chose the knife rather than the book of laws (i.e. hunter rather than leader).

@140/Clementine: "Can a 27 yr old be an excellent surgeon? Seems like he'd still be in residency, right?"

I had the same initial thought, although Ben certainly could have been lying about Ethan. If Ethan did receive medical training, he wouldn't necessarily have to go through the full residency period- he's training to be a doctor on an island that heals, not apply for a real-world hospital gig.

His time frame suggests he was sent to college around the time of the purge- perhaps he wasn't even on the island when Dharma was wiped out.

#149. Posted by: Mizzed at March 19, 2009 9:05 PM

"@36, 74 wrote: "Anyone hear the 'numbers' coming over the radio right before the plane came down?"

Nope. Did they?"

I heard it... 4, 8, 15...

#150. Posted by: 74 at March 19, 2009 9:11 PM

106. Posted by: benlinusrocks

If the Others inhabited that place since the purge why would they have kept all of those Dharma processing/incoming signs hanging up? Have we seen the inside of this building post-Dharma before?

i agree, Something is wrong here. There was a dharma octagon on the door too.

When we see the others in otherton, it looks like a few cottages in a resort. nothing "corporation" here.I do not remember any signs of dharma at all. Now we see OLD otherton and it has many, many cottages and all look very part of a corporation. So what happened? In the epi where the losties were fooming and found the beach camp. It was dark and forboding and seemed a shambles. The buildings that Sun and Lapidus find look the same.

Kind of like the Langoleers were there.

Are there 3 other/dharma camps? what's going on here?

88888888888888888888888888888888

→ 124. Posted by: BELost
SO, why do we assume that the 316'rs including Locke, Lapidus, Sun, and Ben are in 2007, the "current timeline"? From the looks of Dharmatown and the Hydra office Ceasar was in, it could be several more years, even a decade or two into the future.

Just a thought...

DOH! Of course. You just answered my question! Yes. Thank You! It must be the future. Otherton WAS the original dharma in the 70's and belonged to the OTHERS in 2000 and has been RE initiated as DHARMA after getting Changs video message and set up AGAIN on the island and there has BEEN a war AFTER 2007 and we see the results. That makes sense. But why are they there???? What can they do from that period? especially Locke.

444444444444444444444444444444444

I see a lot of people really struggling with this time thing. And I include myself as I am in no way sure of my own logic. I often get pulled in by arguments here and doubt what I think. It would be nice if TBTB would make a little episode to put things in order before any more info gets us more lost.

#151. Posted by: berkyo at March 19, 2009 9:29 PM

I believe that Sun didn't foom because she was with Jin on the original flight and was traveling by herself on flight 316. She had no proxy.

#152. Posted by: marlisa at March 19, 2009 9:30 PM

@37/ransomjackson: “Curious aside - What's up with Sawyer and his glasses? I thought the island healed folks, but he's been needing specs since he got there...interesting...”

Obviously the island’s healing powers are selective, as people do tend to die rather frequently, don’t they? ;) That being said, your comment made me think of something along the same lines … RA is apparently ageless (at least to date on the show), but remember when he stitched up Locke’s gunshot wound to the leg (yet again with the evil future Ethan! … was Juliet “supposed” to deliver him?), RA pulled out the reading glasses. Perhaps the island’s lack of vision correction has something to do with people being unable to really “see” what is happening? Pretty obscure I know, but …

@59/B Mar: “Did we not see Christian holding baby Aaron at one point, in the jungle? I think he's able to touch things (as we saw last night w the picture frame) but still not sure why he wasn't able to help Locke...”
@67/LostedIt: “Christian already told Locke that Ben turning the FDW did not constitute proper fulfillment of the requirements as laid out to Locke, there obviously have to be some rules involving Free Will for certain things to come to pass in regards to the island.”

I agree with LostedIt … free will over one’s actions definitely plays a role here (see below for more).

@76/AbeFroman: “Quick Question: Are the 'Others' dead because Dharmaville is empty? I know that Ben sent them to the Orchid at the end of Season 4. Did Smokey get rid of them also?”

Why is Dharmaville empty in 2007? Good question … we know the Others are still there when Ben turned the FDW, based upon RA’s conversation with Locke when stitching his leg (summary: “you left, we didn’t”) … why wouldn’t they return to where they were living before 815 crashed? Hmm …

As an aside … do we know it is “2007” in the “current time?” … or 2008? Three years after rescue would put them in 2008 when they returned via 316, not 2007. Did they happen to stay in the same time (as other travelers to the island have … Desmond, 815, the freighter …), which should be 2008, or travel slightly back in time to 2007? I know the caption in the epi says “thirty years before” or something to that extent when they go back to ’77 island life, but are we to take that literally, or just roughly? Might mean something … it does to me, if my “the numbers define the possible years of time travel” theory is correct … 23+8 = 31, but 1 or 30 years time jumping busts that idea. Just curious as to when “current time” is supposed to be, and when the 316 people are supposed to be on Hydra island.

Second point re your post … Ben sent them to The Temple, not The Orchid … man, I wish we could some canonical evidence regarding this point, but it seems very apparent to me that The Temple and The Orchid are NOT collocated … The Orchid is inland, and The Temple is coastal.

@93/Cecil Rose: “Ben sent them to ‘The Temple’ which we're assuming - without real proof - is co-located with the Orchid. I'm guessing they're still around, somewhere.”

As I just said, I do not think so …

@104/LostedIt: “@93: Cecil Rose - I think we came to the opposite conclusion, that the Orchid and the Temple are in distinctly different locations.”

Thank you!

@124/BELost: “SO, why do we assume that the 316'rs including Locke, Lapidus, Sun, and Ben are in 2007, the ‘current timeline’? From the looks of Dharmatown and the Hydra office Ceasar was in, it could be several more years, even a decade or two into the future.”
@139/Bus Said: “@138 ‘I agree there is no evidence that says flight 316 landed in 2007.’
In the first 5 minutes it goes from the plain crash, to a Black screen with the words ‘Thirty Years Earlier.’ DO the math. Some of you missed that, it was right before the HUGS.”

I’ve mentioned before that I do not believe “future” time travel is possible within the mythology of the show, and we’ve seen no evidence to suggest that idea is wrong … again confirmed by the “Thirty Years Earlier” tag … if future time travel is possible, it negates the possibility of free will, and this show is ALL about free will. There will be NO “true” future time travel on the show, IMO.

This now returns me to the comment above re why Christian did not help Locke, and why I agree with LostedIt on this point …

It’s all about free will, to either change (or least attempt to change) the future, or not.

In last epi’s blog, berkyo suggested an interesting idea about this, and I replied:

@134/ealgumby:
>>>
@39/berkyo:
"wondered the same thing about Horace Goodspeed's 'other' wife. Maybe they weren't supposed to save Amy and Horace was supposed to marry someone else...? Will there be a course correction?

I am thinking this too. From Faraday's mumblings, i think he's done this jump before and knows he will do it again. - until they all do it right and don't interfere with the past. The fact that you can't change the past is maybe the problem. They do interefere."

Interesting idea! Perhaps Faraday is the only one thinking along these lines, and will end up "interfering" with what he perceives as the rest of the Losties messing with the "correct" timeline ...
>>>

Based upon this epi’s reveal that Daniel is somehow “not anymore” with the other Losties, I see more support for this theory. Daniel is going to be the rogue, trying to keep the other time travelers from “changing” things, either intentionally or otherwise, in an attempt (correct?) to maintain a timeline which doesn’t require any further course correction. He may be the one ultimately responsible for The Incident yet to come.

#153. Posted by: ealgumby at March 19, 2009 9:31 PM

What are the chances that the woman in the background with Christian is Penny. She's the only woman with straight red hair.

Ben killed her, Desmond beat the hell out of him and Widmore put her on Ajira 316 to bring her back on the Island.

#154. Posted by: Paulo at March 19, 2009 9:38 PM

30 years.
Yes, I do remember that. But a whole year is left open. Lostpedia states the 316 crashed in January 2008. So the war could be sometime in 2008 that the present time line has not reached yet.

#155. Posted by: berkyo at March 19, 2009 9:45 PM

A couple from the last gasps of LaFleur
This is a comedy skit, not a spoiler-
>Ben Linus pronounced!
Jimmy Kimmel
Micheal Emerson
Daniel Dae Kim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAhsQfg0u8Y
<
→ 495.

If this isn't by ILBLXX, then there is serious competition out there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltRSlihObsQ
→ 497.

#156. Posted by: mtncbn at March 19, 2009 9:54 PM

Just re-watched after reading the posts

Here are few thoughts:

-Might seem incredible but I believe the women behind Sun is just an editing error. Was almost impossible to see on HDTV (46 inch). Images on internet were necessarily enhanced (contrast) making it easier to see.

NOSEBLEED ALERT!!!

Ok here goes. I definately think, as others do, that Christian brings them back to the processing building. Last photo on the wall seems to be 1978, nothing after...Barracks definatley not as we have seen them before during post-Dharma-purge...this brings me to believe either one of 2 things:

1- As mentionned before something happened on the island during the three years we missed that brought back Dharma as suggested by Berkyo @ 151, but they're again gone or,

2- (prepare to wipe nose) Everything we've seen, never happened on the 2007 island because of something that changed in the past. Let's forget the rules for a moment... I believe the signs are obvious...When Sun and Lapidus arrive in Dharmaville 2007, we can see the processing center sign hanging on it's side, same sign as in 1977. Also, everything in the processing center is almost as it was in 1977, it's as if the place was boarded up and abandoned in the late 70's. This mean's the purge never happened!!! It's as if Dharma packed up and and left in the 78 and who knows what's happened since (on island I mean).

Ah man, just stained another shirt!!!

BTW, also heard the numbers on rewatch, this confirms the fact that Rosseau never happened in the island's 2007 timeline.

Oh yeah, not only does the runway suggest that Ben knew a runway was needed (or should I say Jacob told Ben...) but the out-riggers also suggest this. Ben knew exactly where the were and they had been partially hidden.

This sort of screws up my 2007 island timeline theory though...DAMN YOU DARLETON!...Now were's the Red Cross when you need it.. A+ please!

#157. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 19, 2009 10:26 PM

This is why I hate having busy Thursdays... I always get about 150+ posts behind on this blog!

Now I will read... =]

#158. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 19, 2009 10:28 PM

before I turn it in for the night, I kinda chuckled when Ben was talking to Sun with the sling on, and then was like 'what the hell do i still have this on for' and ripped it off.

After thinking about it for the day, I think that girl in the background was an accident. Only a show like Lost and people like us would notice it and make it a big thing.
But then again, smokey did come in and head in that direction....DAMMIT!
G'nite all

#159. Posted by: 74 at March 19, 2009 10:43 PM

→ 157. Posted by: Prosecutor67

Brilliant point about the numbers still playing when they crashed in 2007. I heard them on first watch, but it was not until your message that I had an ah-ha moment. Rousseau had changed the message 19 years earlier. Solid clue to the changed future. (plus the look of the stations etc) Bravo for pointing out the full implication of us hearing the numbers!

#160. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at March 19, 2009 11:28 PM

One..little..thing.. is..going..to..be..the..variable.. that..changes.. everything!
What will it be, a person, a blade of grass stepped on, a butterfly killed??
I'm onboard with the things have changed scenereo(ie dharma camp still a dharma camp, and not NewOtherton). Who succeded in making the change? Ben..Widmore..Des..Other.. someone else??

#161. Posted by: mtncbn at March 19, 2009 11:41 PM

1) I think that Ben and Sun did not go back to 1977 because they are already there as kids. Maybe they cannot occupy the same time when on the island. I believe Sun is the baby at the start of season 5.

2) Do you think that Jack, Kate, and Sawyer were captured in Season 2 because they were part of the 1977 Dharma Initiative? Just a thought!

#162. Posted by: John at March 19, 2009 11:43 PM

Well, I should put in my guess. Wasn't it Sawyer that squished a frog in his hand way back? That was the variable that was!TWTVTW!

#163. Posted by: mtncbn at March 19, 2009 11:55 PM

157. Posted by: Prosecutor67

I really like this theory that something or someone HAS already changed things. I always wanted it to be that the losties have to keep going back to fix small things until the final end is what it is supposed to be.

Remember Back to the future where the picture he has keeps changing as Mcfly changes the past?

Maybe it was Faraday.

BUT. I will guess that the change is not what the universe needs and they will have to do it again.

okay then. the numbers......hmmmm may bea problem. Unless the change just involved her never getting to the island or perhaps never surviving smokey. Which may or may not effect (or is it affect?)the final outcome. I think hearing the numbers ( which of course I did not catch) was our first clue as to when we were. Good Job to whoever that was :)

#164. Posted by: berkyo at March 20, 2009 7:35 AM

Soon I will have to change my name to Mr. Naysayer II, or perhaps Mr. Debunker.

First, hopefully we've put to bed the idea that the Ajira flight landed in the future- it didn't. It landed in its own time (late 2007/early 2008) with no time shifting- exactly as the Oceanic flight, Rousseau expedition, Desmond yacht, Yemi plane, etc. did.

As for the "they've changed the future" theory developed by multiple bloggers:

1. Frank and the other pilot did not hear Rousseau's message because Jack and others turned her message off three years earlier.

This occurred at the end of the march to the radio tower, shortly before Locke killed Naomi. They disabled Danielle's message in order to use Naomi's sat phone and call the freighter.

They did not disable the equipment in the tower, however- the system likely rebooted itself and began to play its original message again, which was why the tower was constructed in the first place.

2. A lot of speculation regarding the condition of the processing center near the dock, but why?

There are two known docks used by Dharma and later the others- the Pala Ferry and the Harbor. The Harbor is within walking distance of the barracks, has the boathouse where Miles was held prisoner, and is where the sub was docked when Locke made it go boom.

The Pala Ferry is farther away, and requires transportation via Dharma courtesy bus (Chang: "who was your shuttle driver?"). Lostpedia gets into excrutiating detail if anyone cares to see the differences- regardless, Frank and Sun arrived at the Pala Ferry dock (which makes sense since it was the ferry point to the hydra island).

For the last four seasons, we've only seen the business end of the dock- the processing center has only been seen in flashbacks.

The fact that the processing center is decrepit and abandoned tells us nothing about whether the barracks/Otherville are decrepit and abandoned, or whether the future has been changed.

In fact, events this season have already shown us that the fooming back in time is necessary to make sure that events we've seen happen as they should, not be changed.

Juliet must be in the past to deliver Ethan, Jin must be in the past to save Danielle (and Alex)- otherwise, a dozen or so major events in past seasons could never have occurred.

Just as Jack Torrance has always been the caretaker at the Overlook Hotel, so these events have always occurred- just in circular time, not linear time as we experience our own lives.

Free will in Lost means accepting one's path and destiny, not rewriting it.

#165. Posted by: Mizzed at March 20, 2009 8:27 AM

the numbers were transmitted until Rousseau changed them after she arrived at the island. then her message was transmitted.

I have to think about the rest of your argument. but now I have to go to work.
HTGTW:(

#166. Posted by: berkyo at March 20, 2009 9:01 AM

→ 165. Posted: (re: Ajira)
It landed in its own time (late 2007/early 2008) with no time shifting- exactly as the Oceanic flight, Rousseau expedition, Desmond yacht, Yemi plane, etc. did.
- - - -
Ajira shifted somewhere... they foomed at night and de-foomed into daylight. It may have been 12 hours earlier (or later) on the same day in 2008 (07) but the Ajira timeline was non-linear at some point. (The day/night thing is directly from the Official ABC Recap).

Agree about the Yemi plane, Des yacht... but, I'd say they caught the island in its' stable (hidden) state - while Ajira caught the island in its' unstable (unhidden?) pants-down state... the window Hawking described. Which makes Ajira different from the list of arrivals you cite... and a candidate for a "time-shifted" arrival.

#167. Posted by: DocH at March 20, 2009 9:25 AM

@ 165 Mizzed

I know they stopped Rousseau's message, but I don't agree with your simple "reboot" theory to explain why we here the numbers.; The transmission of the message was ended. If the system rebooted, it would be with the last recorded message which is Rousseau's.

I'm not saying Rousseau never went to the Isdland or that the purge didn't happen, but these things don't seem to have happened in this Island timeline. I say this because I've been wondering if the Island can't have different timelines that don't necessarily coincide or influence the "outside" world.

I think there's also a problem with explaination for the processing center. My impression is that this building is situated in Dharmaville. This fits your theory that they arrved via the Pala Ferry dock and needed to be shuttled to the prcessing center. But in this weeks 1977 segments of the epi, the processing center clearly seems to be surrounded by a whole bunch of buildings. Remember, Sawyer arrived with Sayid just after the picture which seems to have been taken just outside the processing center. I'm not saying that we saw everything at the barracks, but I can't remember seeing ONE Dharma logo on a door or building...

#168. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 20, 2009 9:44 AM

@127: boodle, @128: BeLost - goes to show what happens when you haven't seen the actual episode yet. I finally managed to catch the episode last night and yes indeed the night/day thing was quite obvious. So my #2 item in post 126 applies.

@130: Christina - I had seen that comment and until I saw the episode couldn't provide any insight. After watching last night I concluded that Christian hadn't in fact brought them back to the same room that was lit up. When Sun says she's looking for Jin, Christian says something like "follow me" or "come this way". If he'd have intended to bring them back into the room that he had just come from he'd have said something like "come inside". So, after reading everything here and then watching last night I was looking out for that scene and my understanding of it was that he brought them to a different cabin than the one he came out of.

@132: welh - Here's my thought regarding the 108 minutes and Jughead. What if someone later this season sets off the bomb and blows open a hole into the energy that resides below the island (some would speculate the Island IS all energy, but that's another discussion) and they have to build (or have already built) the hatch where the numbers get typed into so that the energy that is now venting outwards stays contained? That would explain why that station was created in the first place and the 108 minutes could merely be how much of a buffer of time they can keep the "leak" contained before it needs to be vented or, like a lightning rod, grounded back downwards somehow.

Ok, some other comments about the episode now that I've seen it:
1) When Sun whacked Ben over the head, I had the distinct feeling of deja-vu regarding Ben killing Locke. In both situations they needed something from the person and didn't attack until they got the information they needed. In Sun's case, she needed to know where the canoes were. Once he brought her there and said where the dock was on the other side, she didn't need him any more. Similarly, once Locke told Ben that Jin was alive and that Eleanor was the person he needed to get in touch with, Ben didn't need him any more (and likely found Locke to be an obstacle to his future return to the island) so he killed him off (probably knowhing that he was fulfilling Locke's destiny in the process, just not knowing that said destiny included him coming back to life upon his return to the island). Funny how karma's a bitch, huh Ben?
2) I'd be really disappointed if Juliet and Sawyer's future together gets damaged/destroyed because of Jack and Kate's return.
3) I think Sawyer did a great job of putting Jack in his place at the end of the episode. One thing, though, is that Sawyer didn't in fact come up with the plan he so proudly put up in Jack's face. That was Juliet's idea. So though it was a very good speech and rightfully put Jack in his place it was as much a situation of posturing of two alpha males as it was anything else.
4) Once again, Kate is relegated to secondary roles on the show. Is she really on this show just as eye candy and as a fulcrum for other characters? Not that I mind some candy... (apologies to the female posters on this blog)
5) On the previews, Sayid says "you're all doomed". I think he was talking about the upcoming purge. As well, Sayid will likely end up getting sent back to the hostiles/natives and we're going to find a situation where Losties are on opposing sides of this "war".
6) Hey, I just thought of something, regarding my comment earlier about Jughead and the 108 minute station. Perhaps the Losties get to return to "current" time (2007) as part of the "incident" that causes the station to be created in the first place - the detonation of the bomb as I described earlier. Mark my words, at the very minimum, as the old saying goes, nobody shows you a gun in a movie in such a way without intending to shoot it. In this case, it's a big fat Jugheaded Archie Comics bomb they're showing us and TPTB intend to eventually "shoot" it.
7) I take back what I said in an earlier post now that I've seen this episode. I don't know that Hurley's "gonna blow" regarding the secret about who they are and where/when they're from. He seemed quite eager to make this lie a reality.
8) Young Ben looked quite evil in this episode. Whether or not the sandwich that was supposedly was in that bad was indeed a sandwich, we're definitely going to find him to be up to no good.

I've got more to say but no time to continue typing right now... Back soon!

#169. Posted by: LostedIt at March 20, 2009 10:35 AM

Just a confirmation: Do we know that Sun/Ben/Locke are in 2007 because of the "thirty years earlier" title? I guess I'm beginning to question the idea that they're in 2007. How do we know this?

Also, I do think it's interesting about Dharmaville. So, we got a 1977 storyline in which Kate/Jack/Hurley are processed. Then we got a 2007 (??) storyline in which Sun/Lapidus visited the exact same building in Dharmaville.

I think the writers are definitely trying to show us that something has changed. Dharmaville in 2007 (??) is NOT like Dharmaville from last season when the Losties moved in and Claire got blown up.

I cannot begin to explain WHAT is different, LOL, but I think that's what we're led to believe.

So I'm going with the theory that the past was changed and that Sun/Ben/Lapidus are seeing the island in a CHANGED state.

But I'm still curious about whether it's 2007 ... or not.

P.S. I absolutely loved this episode, NAMASTE. Great writing, great storytelling, and great advancement of the plot.

#170. Posted by: DCMatt at March 20, 2009 10:57 AM

@132 welh speculated:

>When ghost Christian goes to the photo wall to find the 1977 recruits, there is only one more class photo, 1978. The inference is that Dharma gets wiped out in 1978 (no more recruits), and not in Ben's 1992 purge.

Or that Dharma no longer brought in recruits after 1978. Or the photo budget was cut back in the great 1979 recession.


>Chang's original Swan orientation film from 1980 states the Hatch was constructed after the Incident to discharge EM every 108 minutes. In 1977, Radzinsky, a security guard, is creating the secret plans and model of the facility before it is needed (?).
We are not aware of any EM incidents every 108 minutes during 1974-1977. Unless, Radz is reconstructing the Hatch in new 1977 from his 2000-01 memories. And this is why the intersecting time jumps are getting too tangled.

I think Razinsky's more than a security guard. He seems to be in charge of all communications at the Flame station, which was the communications hub of the entire island.

Nah, I'm going to hold with Faraday that what has happened, happened. And we've seen no evidence that anybody Dharma/Other is time jumping. I'm thinking there;s somethin special about the 815 Survivors - at leas *some* of them - witness Sun not jumping.

>The speculation is that prior to the 815ers becoming Dharma, the Incident was contained; now that Sawyers group and O6 are Dharma 77, the Incident is not contained and the DI is wiped out.

I counterpredict.

>If Dharma is wiped out before the Hatch is built, then there is no 815 crash in 2004. It would also mean Widmore could not find the island as it skipped every 108 minutes without the protocol.

I futher predict that you cannot change the future - if it will happen - and you know that because you were there - then it will happen.

#171. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2009 11:11 AM

@147 berkyo indignated:

>Yeah! so is this some kind of discrimination against us old tv owners????? I mean owners of old tv's - right Cecil?;)

In my case, it works either way.

#172. Posted by: Cecil at March 20, 2009 11:20 AM

@148 Plain Simple asked:

>@36, 74 wrote: "Anyone hear the 'numbers' coming over the radio right before the plane came down?"

>Nope. Did they?

Yeah, just about the time they turned in on the lading strip, you can hear "..8...15...16..." which throws a whole new light on the "When did they crash land?" questions.

The numbers haven't been broadcast since Rousseau visited the transmitter and replaced the tape with her rescue plea, which was around January 3-17, 1989, according to the Lostpedia timeline. So the question then is why the Hydra station appeared abandoned.

#173. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2009 11:28 AM

@151 berkyo brainstormed:

>>@124. Posted by: BELost
SO, why do we assume that the 316'rs including Locke, Lapidus, Sun, and Ben are in 2007, the "current timeline"? From the looks of Dharmatown and the Hydra office Ceasar was in, it could be several more years, even a decade or two into the future.

>>Just a thought...

>DOH! Of course. You just answered my question! Yes. Thank You! It must be the future. Otherton WAS the original dharma in the 70's and belonged to the OTHERS in 2000 and has been RE initiated as DHARMA after getting Changs video message and set up AGAIN on the island and there has BEEN a war AFTER 2007 and we see the results.

BUT - and a *very* big but here (no comments from the peanut gallery) - If so, why did Frank and the copilot hear the numbers being broadcast as they manuvered for their landing - numbers which have not been broadcast since 1989?

#174. Posted by: Cecil at March 20, 2009 11:37 AM

@153 ealgumby spectacleated:

>>@37/ransomjackson: “Curious aside - What's up with Sawyer and his glasses? I thought the island healed folks, but he's been needing specs since he got there...interesting...”

>Obviously the island’s healing powers are selective, as people do tend to die rather frequently, don’t they? ;) … RA is apparently ageless, but remember when he stitched up Locke’s gunshot wound to the leg RA pulled out the reading glasses.

My own speculation is that the island's 'healing powers' consist of in some way super-stimulating the normal human immune-response. Thus things that can be combatted by the immune system - resistance to infection, faster healing from injury, resisting certain types of cancers are helped by the island.

But the hyper-immune system can also have undesirable side effects - the mother's body can mis-identify the embryo/fetus as a foreign invader and kill the fetus, and the mother with it, in the course of fighting the 'foreign body' within.

So maybe thre's ome common event post 1977, pre2004 that creates the 'healing powers' of the island and at the same time causes mothers to dy if impregnated on the island.

#175. Posted by: Cecil at March 20, 2009 12:04 PM

>>@93/Cecil Rose: “Ben sent them to ‘The Temple’ which we're assuming - without real proof - is co-located with the Orchid. I'm guessing they're still around, somewhere.”

?As I just said, I do not think so …

>>@104/LostedIt: “@93: Cecil Rose - I think we came to the opposite conclusion, that the Orchid and the Temple are in distinctly different locations.”

>Thank you!

My reasoning. You dig a well straight down from the temple / an elevator shaft straight down from the Orchid - you come to the FDW. Ergo the two are in (at least roughly) the same place. Maybe not the same time, but the same place.

Or are the ruins we see near the well not the Temple?

#176. Posted by: Cecil at March 20, 2009 12:09 PM

@152 - marlisa
>I believe that Sun didn't foom because she was with Jin on the original flight and was traveling by herself on flight 316. She had no proxy.<

Sun had Jin's wedding ring, which I think counts (I'm assuming that the guitar Hurley had served as a proxy for Charlie). I was leaning more towards Mizzed@149's interpretation that Sun is needed to influence events in 2007, but Christian's "You have a bit of a journey ahead of you" implies that her path leads back to 1977 as well. Of course, Christian's statement is ambiguous, so I could be wrong about that.

#177. Posted by: marissa at March 20, 2009 12:18 PM

@173: Cecil Rose - I haven't heard the numbers in-flight as described by other people (wasn't listening for them and haven't gone back to re-watch it yet) and I'm not sure why they would be heard since, as others have pointed out, Rousseau's broadcast was disabled some time ago. However I wouldn't go so far as to postulate that them hearing the numbers on the plane is an indication that they're in a time period prior to when the broadcast was disabled. I'd propose that it could be:
- A completely different broadcast (unlikely, but possible)
- A time-warp effect as they're passing through the wormhole (or whatever it is they're passing through) to get to the island, such that they're seeing/hearing things from various time periods as they transition over. (I put this high on my list)
- Similar to the voices/whispers that are often heard at critical points in the show. Recently, discussions have attributed these whispers to being the Losties themselves as they've travelled back in forth through time, kind of like an echo as they pass through. Why couldn't the broadcast of the numbers similarly be an echo of sorts that can be heard as you transition from the "real world" to the island? I'd further postulate that, if you weren't using an airline but rather walking through the portal perhaps you'd hear all of the voices of previous travelers and/or goings-on on the island as well.


@176: Cecil - Regarding the Temple/Orchid conundrum, I believe the ruins we see in that scene near the well are that of the Orchid (ie: same location at a different period in time), not of the Temple.

#178. Posted by: LostedIt at March 20, 2009 12:31 PM

@177: marissa - Interesting, since the Losties got separated in time, I've been assuming that the Losties from 1977 were eventually going to have to find their way back to the present and reunite with the other Losties in 2007. But, as you pointed out, Christian specifically stated that Sun had a "bit of a journey" that she'll need to be going on before she can be reunited with Jin, which would seem to imply that she will eventually reunite with Jin back in 1977, not in 2007.

Then again, perhaps this goes along with what I said earlier about Sun - that the reason she didn't Foom backwards in time with the rest of the Losties was because she still has some reconciling/redemption to perform before she'll be allowed to rejoin with Jin. That could be another way to interpret Christian's statement - that the "bit of a journey" she needs to go on is spiritual in some way and she'll need to cleanse her sins/soul before being allowed to find a way to rejoin with Jin or perhaps before the time comes that the Losties do find a way back to 2007.

I think I like that. As I said in a previous post, we're likely going to see some flashbacks that show Sun having done some rather underhanded things since returning to the real world that will require her to redeem herself in some way. That redemption has been built into the timeline/storyline and she will be going through some experience(s) in 2007 that will allow her to be "cleansed" and thus in a position to be ready for when the Losties in 1977 do in fact return. She just doesn't know all of this yet and the Losties in 1997 don't know that there will come a day in the near future that they will all return to present time (again, I think Jughead and/or the 108-minute station will be involved in this).

#179. Posted by: LostedIt at March 20, 2009 12:41 PM

@157 Prosecutor67 tried to wrap his mind around:

>When Sun and Lapidus arrive in Dharmaville 2007, we can see the processing center sign hanging on it's side, same sign as in 1977. Also, everything in the processing center is almost as it was in 1977, it's as if the place was boarded up and abandoned in the late 70's. This mean's the purge never happened!!! It's as if Dharma packed up and and left in the 78 and who knows what's happened since (on island I mean).

Or perhaps, these events take place sometime between 1978 (when Dharma was still receiving recruits)and 1989 (when the numbers stopped transmitting).

Later, after the purge, the Others took over these facilities. Then the events of 2004 still take place, just as we saw them.

The only piece of evidence we have arguing against this interpretation is the "Thirty years earlier" flashed on the screen beteen the 316ers and the flasheees - but maybe that's thirty years before the start of that scene - not when it ended.

>BTW, also heard the numbers on rewatch, this confirms the fact that Rosseau never happened in the island's 2007 timeline.

Or the crash was pre-Rousseau.

>Oh yeah, not only does the runway suggest that Ben knew a runway was needed (or should I say Jacob told Ben...) but the out-riggers also suggest this. Ben knew exactly where the were and they had been partially hidden.

The runway is a problem with the pre-1989 theory, also. But considering the runway construction force lost a lot of manpower in the events of the season 3 end, hard to see how they could have constructed it in the 2004-2007 time frame anyway. Maybe it was one that previously existed in 1988, say, and the 2004 work parties were trying to reconstruct it.

#180. Posted by: Cecil at March 20, 2009 12:42 PM

Regarding Ethan, since the Others do have a liking for babies/children, it seems reasonable that they took/kidnapped Ethan (if he is indeed the Other Ethan) and with the Islands ‘special powers’ created the doctor he became in the future.

#181. Posted by: opserc at March 20, 2009 12:44 PM

@171, Cecil Rose:

"@132 welh speculated:

>When ghost Christian goes to the photo wall to find the 1977 recruits, there is only one more class photo, 1978. The inference is that Dharma gets wiped out in 1978 (no more recruits), and not in Ben's 1992 purge.

Or that Dharma no longer brought in recruits after 1978. Or the photo budget was cut back in the great 1979 recession."


Probably, because of The Incident, Dharma stopped bringing recruits in 1978.

I do not agree with all the theories about changing the past. It will make everything more confusing and it has been said many times in the show that things happen in a certain, supposed-to-happen way. The time travels just shows us how things happen but the outcome must always be the same, if not, the first seasons would no longer be true, lol

#182. Posted by: Julia at March 20, 2009 12:56 PM

Too many words; too many posts! Making my head hurt!
My contribution to the conversation:
Dharma must have one heck of a cosmetic dentist on the island since Sawyer seems to have a shiny new set of porcelain veneers.

#183. Posted by: Kathy at March 20, 2009 12:57 PM

What I really dig about the time-travel angle is that a lot of the mystical sheen surrounding characters who've been pegged as "special" disappears once we know they interacted with characters in the past (e.g. Locke and RA). Also, Ben's creepy omniscience regarding the Losties makes more sense--he'd met them when he was still a kid. But here's a backstory I still can't reconcile: Sayid and Kelvin (and Radzinsky).

From the point of view of the show's audience, Sayid was first singled out as "special" during the Gulf War when Kelvin recruited him into service as a torturer/interrogator. After this week's episode, it makes more sense that Sayid's capture by Dharma in 1977 was actually the moment when he was "marked." But if I really look at the timeline, that doesn't quite pan out:

1977: Sayid is captured by Dharma as a "Hostile." No matter how Sayid's story plays out in the next episode or so, the notable thing at the moment is that *Radzinsky* has come into close contact with Sayid Jarrah.

1990: Kelvin (working for the US military) recruits Sayid during the Gulf War

1991: Kelvin leaves the military and is recruited by Dharma. Is partnered with Radzinsky and assigned to the Swan almost immediately, because the very next year is...

1992: The Purge. Dharma is mostly wiped out, but the Others may not know about the Swan. Radzinski kills himself somewhere between 1991-2001, but we don't know when. As far as we know, Kelvin--and then Kelvin and Desmond--are completely isolated from everything--the Island *and* the outside world until...

2004: Kelvin is killed by Desmond

If Kelvin's career path is what we've been told so far, he meets Sayid *for the first time* during the Gulf War--how does he already know that Sayid is "special"? Once he meets Radzinsky, we can guess that he learns about Sayid, but that's a year *after* he tells Sayid that his interrogator skills WILL come in handy someday.

My best guess is that Kelvin's mysterious foreknowledge of Sayid, combined with the military's presence on the Island in "Jughead" means that we'll learn that the military is a much bigger player than we've known so far.

#184. Posted by: marissa at March 20, 2009 1:18 PM

#184 marissa proposed:

>As far as we know, Kelvin--and then Kelvin and Desmond--are completely isolated from everything--the Island *and* the outside world until...

Don't we assume they still received Dharma-drops?

#185. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2009 1:24 PM

First time blogger, long time fan to this sight.
I didn't catch all that has been said. but does anyone thnk it strange that Hurley could fit in a Sub? and if so no one would have seen him (or not see him) and tell the dharma folk?

#186. Posted by: Paul at March 20, 2009 1:31 PM

Loved the review as usual Mac!

I liked this ep a lot, but am not diggin' the whole love quadrangle thing that's brewing. Jack and Kate hooked up once again right before they left for the island. Sawyer and Juliet have a strong 3 years solidified relationship together. The Sawyer/Kate and Jack/Juliet feelings shouldn't be strong enough anymore to warrant any serious thoughts of leaving current relationships. But I guess conflict like this is part of the whole story, so we're gonna see more.

#187. Posted by: JoePike at March 20, 2009 1:41 PM

@185 - Cecil Rose
>Don't we assume they still received Dharma-drops?<

Yes, those drops really confuse me--I'd thought it meant that Dharma's off-Island arm was somehow unaware of the Purge, but that seemed really unlikely. If that's the case, though, it adds support to my idea that there is no information exchange between the Swan (Kelvin) and the outside world.

To go a bit off-point for a moment: I had said that the Others were perhaps unaware of the Swan, which is why they'd survived the Purge (I'd got that from reading about a Lost interview or podcast, somewhere). The Others must have learned about the Swan pretty soon after the Purge, however (video surveillance at the Pearl). Maybe the Others realized the importance of pushing the button and decided to leave Radzinsky and Kelvin to it (better those guys than having to waste Other personnel)? And made some sort of truce with the off-Island Dharma branch to continue to send supplies to the Swan? Back on point: if *that's* true, then Kelvin was *still* cut off from the outside world.

#188. Posted by: marissa at March 20, 2009 1:50 PM

So if Dharma was purged prior to Jack&Co initially crashing on the island... why was Dharma still receiving food drops?

#189. Posted by: schiano at March 20, 2009 2:47 PM

→ 174. Posted by: Cecil
BUT - and a *very* big but here (no comments from the peanut gallery) - If so, why did Frank and the copilot hear the numbers being broadcast as they manuvered for their landing - numbers which have not been broadcast since 1989?

well, I don't know, Cecil. could they have landed pre 1989? before Rousseau got there? I have to think about this a bit. Not sure if that makes any more sense than a bit into the future.

QUESTION
Someone said there were 2 othertons. the one where Ben lived and another one with older dharma buildings. Is this right? I don't remember seeing any other buildings except the ones where they lived (and Hydra) since the 815 crash. If they were old dharma buildings that might change my thoughts. Off to Lospedia.

#190. Posted by: berkyo at March 20, 2009 2:56 PM

Can we assume that the foomers visit to the lost beach, the one in disarray with 2 outrigger canoes, was after the 316 crash? If this is 2007/08 onward, then the 815 did crash on the island and was there at the same time as the deserted old dharma buildings. Could it be that we just never saw them?

I guess, as some one mentioned that the numbers message could have rebooted after Danielle's was deleted, but I seem to remember Locke or Danielle taking a tape out of the machine. Was another one put back? Why would they do that? who needs the numbers? This is an old machine. I don't they rebooted automatically. I guess RA could have reloaded it.

#191. Posted by: berkyo at March 20, 2009 3:17 PM

Current time is the time when they flew from LA. So in the show if its 2007 then for the Ajirans its still 2007 real time.
I'm just hoping that we'll meet a young Hillbilly Tom. LOL.
Remember the darhma van with all that been and workman. Could that be Jack's destination? Maybe why they made the point of Jack commenting on it.

As for Daniel. Sawyer mentions that he's not there. I beleive he took the sub off island to do research at Oxford. Probably found his mom who's a scientist for help and will be back

#192. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at March 20, 2009 3:34 PM

My memory ain't as good as it once was...can some please explain to me...

1. Do we know who built the outriggers, and when?
2. How many were there (3?) and when and in what order were they taken/used and by whom?
3. Who knows/knew they were there?

Seems awful weird to me that there just happens to be three outriggers just lying around...by gum by gosh by golly that's got Ben (Mr. BASIC) written all over it.

#193. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 20, 2009 3:40 PM

→ 192. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL - - -
No - Ajira went somewhere.
...read → 167. we just don't know when it went to.

#194. Posted by: DocH at March 20, 2009 3:42 PM

→ 176. Posted by: Cecil
Or are the ruins we see near the well not the Temple?

The well was close to the Orchid. No idea where the temple is yet.

444444444444444444444444444
→ 177. Posted by: marissa
You have a bit of a journey ahead of you" implies that her path leads back to 1977 as well. Of course, Christian's statement is ambiguous, so I could be wrong about that.

Maybe he meant a spiritual journey. She seems to be carrying some heavy baggage lately. I think she has been working with Widmore. Either with or against her will. Maybe she needs to atone. As LostedIt already has stated ;)

8888888888888888888888888888

#195. Posted by: berkyo at March 20, 2009 3:44 PM

? 79. Posted by: iheartsawyer
Favorite line, when Sun told Frank "I lied" when she said she trusted Ben. Sounded like something Ben would say.
If she were trying to sound like Ben, she would say, "Frank, I wasn't being entirely truthful." Then her eyes would go all buggy.

Don't recall the post, but the crack about Pierre Chang's middle name being Francis was pretty good. :-)

I've read about the timeline confusion about the 2007 foom group.

The O-6 left the island in 2004.
Jack, Kate, et al. had three years off island...Sawyer, Jules, et al. had 3 years back in the groovy 70s.
The Ajira plane landed in 2007 (from the 30 years earlier splash). HOWEVER the runway Sawyer and Kate were building was far from finished when they escaped Ben's evil clutches. How did it get finished and by whom?

The 2004 Others (sent to the Temple lead by Richard Alpert) have been on the island for 3 years. Could they simply have either abandoned Camp Otherton or Ferrytown, or boarded up the windows, and returned to the Temple for sushi and wine? Smokey the Ferocious Beast basically laid waste to Otherton while dining on Keamy's boatmen. That could also explain why Otherton is run down.

Either that or the island went through a bad economic recession and many of its mid-level industres had to fold and they consolidated their living quarters to save on bills from the Island's Public Service Electromagnetic & Gas (PSE&G).

I happen to agree that we are shown subtle things: the numbers broadcasting in the Ajira cockpit (which I didn't hear but will take on credit knowing the dilligence of the posters here), and the parallel between 1977 Ferrytown and 2007 Ferrytown is definitely intentional to show that something did in fact change.

The 1978 incident, I believe, is the event subject to that change, and the show will present the two paths. I believe Daniel is DIRECTLY involved in that.

#196. Posted by: Gumbo at March 20, 2009 4:30 PM

@195 berkyo proposed:

>>176. Posted by: Cecil
Or are the ruins we see near the well not the Temple?

>The well was close to the Orchid. No idea where the temple is yet.

Locke and company went to the Orchid.
They arrived there.
Juliet: Isn't it great it is still here?
]FOOM[
Sawyer: Way to jinx us!

In place of the Orchid, they are now standing in front of some ancient ruins with hieroglyphs on them. My assumption was this was the Temple. If it's not, why (in last year's finale) were Richard and crew (who were supposed to be going to the Temple) handy in the vicinity of the Orchid to rescue the Losties?

#197. Posted by: Cecil at March 20, 2009 4:36 PM

Ok, here's a thought regarding the night/day transition of flight 316 before it crashed onto the Hydra island. I had been talking with someone here at my office about it and how it seemed to match up with the helicopter's experience as well. What I came up with was that the freighter wasn't really sitting just miles off the coast of the island. Rather, it was sitting miles off the coast of the portal/gateway that got you to the island. Similar to how the airliner passed through a portal/gateway. I know there's a lot of inconsistencies in the way people were traveling back and forth to the freighter (like the doc's body that showed up on short before he was killed on the freighter), but hear me out on the overall concept (even if, as I mentioned, it was poorly executed in regards to the freighter).

Remember, Eleanor described the need to locate a portal that would get you to where the island currently exists. A portal to me implies two ends to a tunnel of sorts. So while they (Eleanor & co) can locate one end of the portal, where is the other end? That's the big question. We know it's somewhere close to the island, but does the island and it's portal need to be anywhere near the portal on the other end of the tunnel? I'd think not.

Let's go with the concept that the island and it's end of the portal at least exist somewhere on the surface of the earth. I just cannot accept a storyline right now that places the island on another planet or deep inside the Earth or something like that right now. So anyhow, there are 24 time zones on the earth. A plane, or a helicopter, or a boat, submarine, what have you, could go in one end of the tunnel through the known portal at 12:00pm GMT and come out the other end where it's 4:00am PST (which is 8 still hours earlier in the same day) without ever having moved through time at all, merely through physical space (basically across the surface of the Earth).

That seems, to me at least, a good explanation of why/how the plane could suddenly jump from night to day and why the freighter helicopter could transition from a stormy night into a partly-cloudy day. The time and weather at different places on the Earth at any given moment can and likely would be distinctly different from one another at each end of the portal. The same portal theory as posed by Eleanor and seemingly confirmed by Widmore would also appear to clear up questions such as how Ben and Locke could end up in the Tunisian desert from the island. In that case, one side of the portal could be thought of as being locked down to a fixed point on the Earth while the other end is tethered to the island as it bounces about its merry way to non-fixed points on the Earth. Or, for that matter, through time. Hmmm, so could the Losties use that portal to get back to the current time period (2007). Hadn't thought about that until now but it would seem possible. Although perhaps the end of the portal tethered to a fixed point on Earth isn't necessarily tethered to a fixed relative point in time (thus the reason that Ben asked what the date was when he came through and why Locke managed to transition almost three years into the future when he came through).

Ok, anyhow, so that's my two cents. Most of it seems to make sense to me at some level least. I'm feeling like some of the answers are starting to fall into place, if not with 100% clarity. New ones to be created by TPTB real soon now, like in the next episode I'm sure.

#198. Posted by: LostedIt at March 20, 2009 5:11 PM

what are you trying to say LostedIt? LOL

#199. Posted by: 74 at March 20, 2009 5:34 PM

198 - Lostedit

Could you be talking about a wormhole. I'm not sure which one but on ST:TNG there was an episode about a wormhole that was stable at one end and not at the other. I'm kinda new to this blog so this theory may have been mentioned in the past but maybe that's it. The island is at the end of a wormhole that goes moves thru space and time.

I do love this blog by the way. So many great theories, I agree w/ everyone. My head hurts.

#200. Posted by: iheartsawyer at March 20, 2009 5:55 PM

@196 Gumbo

If there's two paths...(i've been thinking about this since one of b march's earlier posts about Daniel crying at the footage of the crash) that in one reality 815 really does end up at the bottom of the ocean...and they all are, in fact, dead??

#201. Posted by: katijo at March 20, 2009 7:33 PM

@177 marissa

You are right. I can't believe I forgot about Jin's ring. Thanks for reminding me.

#202. Posted by: marlisa at March 20, 2009 7:35 PM

I sucks getting old. Memory is definitely the first to go.

#203. Posted by: marlisa at March 20, 2009 7:37 PM

Where is Desmond? I am very interested to learn how he comes back to the island, assuming he does.
Can anyone remember what Hawkins said to Desmond back in S03? I remember her talking about him not buying the ring, sailing, and pushing the button. Was there anything else that would tie him into what's going on now?

Sorry, I know it has nothing to do with the episode we're discussing, just can't recall if there was anything else mentioned.

#204. Posted by: 74 at March 20, 2009 7:47 PM

Cecil - you mentioned a few times how the numbers haven't been transmitted since 1989? Is that true? I thought when Sayid first got the radio working, it was transmitting those numbers.

@ 196 "HOWEVER the runway Sawyer and Kate were building was far from finished when they escaped Ben's evil clutches. How did it get finished and by whom?"

- They never showed an aerial view of the runway before. I don't think we can tell from any of the scenes of Kate and Sawyer working there just how far along it was. It couldn't have been such a great runway anyway though...a few wheelbarrows, sledge hammers, and sweat? Maybe the actual runway was already there, and Ben was like 'Yo, I'm coming back on a big plane, extend that a bit, eh?'

#205. Posted by: 74 at March 20, 2009 7:59 PM

Hey, folks!

For all the new folks, and some of the old, I'd like to remind you that last asummer during the Lost doldrums, we created a "Lost Blog Reader's Map" through Frapper.

There's a whole blog about it --just click on "Lost Blog Home" up above and then scroll down about 2/3 of the way to the bottom for the index and link.

You can "pin" yourself on the map, declare your favorite lost character, leave a shout-out to fellow fans, and publish a picture (or an avatar).

Come see where everybody lives (to the nearest hundred miles or so - no security issues) and create a pin for yourself.

Be seeing you - comments welcome as well.

#206. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2009 8:03 PM

Sorry, I'm an idiot - I can make it even easier - just click my name below to go directly to the map.

#207. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2009 8:05 PM

@205 74 (or was it Scott? asked:

>Cecil - you mentioned a few times how the numbers haven't been transmitted since 1989? Is that true? I thought when Sayid first got the radio working, it was transmitting those numbers.

The radio Sayid rebuilt picked up Rousseau's voice (in French) broadcasting a distress message. They got Shannon to (loosely) translate.

There was also a machine voice that broadcast a count of the transmission iteration number at the beginning of the message. Calculating from the length of the message and the number the count had reached, Sayid calculated that the message had been broadcasting for 16 years.

Rousseau trekked to the transmitter after she had killed all her companions, and within a week of when Alex was born. Lostpedia places he date some time in January 1989 when Rousseau's transmission replaces the numbers.

The text of the transmissions (there were multiples) courtesy of Lostpedia - I'm not sire if there messages differed or it's just Shannon's shakey translations of one longer message:

Iteration 17294530 : "If anybody can hear this, they are dead. Please help us. I'll try to make it to the Black Rock. It [or he] killed them. It [or he] killed them all."


Iteration 17294531 : "It [or he] is outside. It [or he] is outside and Brennan took the keys. Please help us. They are dead. They are all dead. Help us. They are dead."


Iteration 17294532 : "It [or he] is outside. It [or he] is outside and Brennan took the keys. Please help us. They are dead. They are all dead. Help us. They are dead."


Iteration 17294533 : "They are all dead. Help us. They are dead. If anybody can hear this—"


Iteration 17294534 : "It [or he] is outside. Please help us. Please help us !"


Iteration 17294535 : "If anybody can hear this, I'll try to make it to the Black Rock. Please help us ! They are all dead. They are dead. It [or he] killed them. It [or he] killed them all. I'll try to make it to the Black Rock."
______

>>@ 196 "HOWEVER the runway Sawyer and Kate were building was far from finished when they escaped Ben's evil clutches. How did it get finished and by whom?"

>They never showed an aerial view of the runway before. I don't think we can tell from any of the scenes of Kate and Sawyer working there just how far along it was. It couldn't have been such a great runway anyway though...a few wheelbarrows, sledge hammers, and sweat? Maybe the actual runway was already there, and Ben was like 'Yo, I'm coming back on a big plane, extend that a bit, eh?'

It didn't seem like much had been done in 2004, anD shortly thereafter the Others lost a considerable portion of their manpower in their conflict with the Losties.

#208. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2009 8:26 PM

Cecil...hmmm, i always noticed "or was it Scott?" I just thought it was a Steve/Scott thing. What's up with that? :-)

So, if those numbers weren't transmitted after 1989, then that makes me curious of the 316 flight crash/landing.

Even though the splash screen said '30 years earlier..' that may have only meant 30 years earlier from the time we see Sawyer meeting up with J/K/H, and not 30 years earlier than the current time of S/F/B.

Even though 'BUS' told me to do the math, I'm still not convinced 316 landed in currnet, 2007 time.

#209. Posted by: 74 at March 20, 2009 8:54 PM

@209 74 commented:

>Cecil...hmmm, i always noticed "or was it Scott?" I just thought it was a Steve/Scott thing. What's up with that? :-)

Didn't you post upstream that you used to be Steve? Just continuing the joke. ;)


>So, if those numbers weren't transmitted after 1989, then that makes me curious of the 316 flight crash/landing.

Yeah, me too.

>Even though the splash screen said '30 years earlier..' that may have only meant 30 years earlier from the time we see Sawyer meeting up with J/K/H, and not 30 years earlier than the current time of S/F/B.

SFB? Oh, Sun/Frank/Ben. But Sawyer is meeting J/K/H hurley in 1977, and I'm, pretty sure the 'thirty years earlier' is at the beginning off that scene, meaning thirty years earlier than the 316 crash landing. However , it could mean thirty years before the *beginning* of that scene - in 2007 or early 2008 - and not necessarily from the end of that scene - after the crash in ? (1977-1989) ?

>Even though 'BUS' told me to do the math, I'm still not convinced 316 landed in currnet, 2007 time.

Ever since I realized the significance of the numbers being heard as they landed, neither have I.

#210. Posted by: Cecil at March 20, 2009 9:18 PM

Just listened to this weeks podcast. Darleton confirmed that the little girl that Faraday saw was Charlotte. An error in Charlotte's DOB (1979) as given by Ben was missed in the editing room. Her actual DOB should have been 1970. So it was her.

#211. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 20, 2009 9:18 PM

→ 197. Posted by: Cecil
In place of the Orchid, they are now standing in front of some ancient ruins with hieroglyphs on them. My assumption was this was the Temple. If it's not, why (in last year's finale) were Richard and crew (who were supposed to be going to the Temple) handy in the vicinity of the Orchid to rescue the Losties?

I think the ancient ruins with glyphs is the temple. That was where Jin and Rouseau's group was. This is not near or at any rate not next to the orchid. There was only the orchid at the well.

This is from losypedia's timeline.

Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh shifts: Unknown

"This Place Is Death"

* Jin is still at gunpoint, but this time by Sawyer, who is excited to discover he is alive.
* Locke leads the group of seven to the Orchid to end the time shifts.
* As time skips twice more in immediate succession, almost everyone is getting nosebleeds and Charlotte is becoming delirious.
* Daniel doesn't want to leave Charlotte, they're arguing until next time shift happens.

Twelfth shift: After the Orchid greenhouse is destroyed

"This Place Is Death"

* Locke, Sawyer, Jin, Miles, and Juliet leave Daniel to take care of Charlotte. They reach the Orchid, visibly burned, just in time for another time flash.

Thirteenth shift: Between the times the Well and the Orchid are built

"This Place Is Death"

* The Orchid has not been built yet, so, following Charlotte's advice, Locke looks for and finds the Well into which he climbs.

Fourteenth shift: Between the times the Four-toed statue and the Well are built

"This Place Is Death"

* Charlotte dies in Faraday's arms.
* Locke falls to the bottom of the Well no longer holding the rope. There he meets Christian who chastises him for letting Ben turn the wheel instead of doing it himself. He shows Locke the wheel and tells him to put it back on its proper axis.

"LaFleur"

* Sawyer is still holding the rope which is now stuck in the ground. As they discuss in what time they might now be, Miles notices the entire four-toed statue.

"This Place Is Death"

* Locke turns the wheel, which causes the final time shift.

#212. Posted by: berkyo at March 20, 2009 9:38 PM

yes Cecil, I just never understood the Scott part :-)

See, the '30 years earlier' comes after the post-316 crash/land scene...BUT, does it have to reference that scene, or '30 years earlier' than when they took off from LA?

I'm really only fixed on this tonight because I didn't realize the numbers didn't transmit after 1989. If that's the case, then 316 had to land prior to 1989.

But at the same time, I had thought it was the future / present when Sawyer et al, came across the outriggers with the Ajira (sp?) water bottles at their old camp.

So, if they crashed/landed pre-1989, then their camp would not be there and the water bottle would not be there.

#213. Posted by: 74 at March 20, 2009 9:41 PM

@213 74 queried:

>yes Cecil, I just never understood the Scott part :-)

Oh. In the first season, Ethan Rom, after his unveiling as an Other, warns the Losties to give him Claire or he'll kill one of them each night. They set an all-night guard around the beach camp expecting him to come from the direction of the jungle, but the next morning one of their number is dead. Ethan apparently swam in from the sea unguarded sea side of camp and broke his neck (the same killing method we see Goodwin and Widmore use at other times.)

When referring to this incident later somebody (I forget who) says "When the Others killed Scott..." and is corrected by, I think, Hurley saying "No dude, Scott's fine, it was Steve." (Or it could have been the reverse.) Scott/Steve confusion became an item on the show and in the blog.

>See, the '30 years earlier' comes after the post-316 crash/land scene...BUT, does it have to reference that scene, or '30 years earlier' than when they took off from LA?

Normally, you'd expect it to refer to the scene just immediately past. But this *is* Lost, so....

>I'm really only fixed on this tonight because I didn't realize the numbers didn't transmit after 1989. If that's the case, then 316 had to land prior to 1989.

Or a wormhole opened up and allowed the broadcast to flow through or... (whatever the writers cook up).

Remember when they got Bernard's transistor radio fixed up and it received music that sounded like it came from the forties? Who knows what can happen on Lost island?

>But at the same time, I had thought it was the future / present when Sawyer et al, came across the outriggers with the Ajira (sp?) water bottles at their old camp.

But we saw the Losties paddling one of those canoes and flashing to another time. So canoes could have been transferred through time by being in the possession of time-flashers.

I still have this theory of one canoe that keeps doubling back and being parked beside itself by time travellers.{g} So maybe the 316ers left it (and one more) there to be found by Sawyer's group.


>So, if they crashed/landed pre-1989, then their camp would not be there and the water bottle would not be there.

Unless that's where Sawyer was at the time, too. Or somebody at some point has it in their possession when time-flashing.

#214. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 20, 2009 10:02 PM

From 3/19 ABC.com podcast with TPTB

***********OFFICIAL PODCAST SPOILER************

TPTB just finished writing the finale and the 2 hour event is called "The Incident". They are allowing people to email and give suggestions for the secret code name for the final scene like "frozen donkey wheel" last year.

**********PODCAST CONFIRMATIONS********

Ethan is in fact Ethan Rom

Rebecca the actress playing Charlotte changed her birth year on her first day during the shoot so she would not be 37 yrs. (vanity) As TPTB said - it's not like we could tell her that the next year would have her character time travel and die and her birth year would be very important. They confirm 1970 as being correct and said they missed it on the editing. So they do in fact make mistakes. (woman behind Sun?)

#215. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at March 20, 2009 10:05 PM

Cecil - thanks for clearing that up about Scott/Steve - I didn't remember that in the show and always wondered :-)

OK, enough for me until next week.
Except, where's Desmond?

#216. Posted by: 74 at March 20, 2009 10:10 PM

Jeez.

I'm all for group speculation, but let's have the speculation consistent with the show itself.

1. There is no evidence that the Temple and the Orchid are near each other. The Temple is in the mountains not far from the Northwest coast, as seen on Ben's map. The fact that it is in walking distance from the coast is supported by the Danielle-Jin-Montand-Smokey scene.

We know that the Orchid is several hours north into the interior of the island, and that's about it.

When Ben, Sawyer and Hurley were walking to the Orchid at the end of season 4, Ben stopped and found a mirror hidden in a case under a rock. He then used the mirror to signal RA and his people near the Temple- far in the distance and at a much higher elevation.

Since the Temple is personally guarded by Smokey and is perhaps the oldest and most important site to the Others, while the Orchid is a Dharma-constructed station , it seems unlikely they'd be next-door neighbors.

2. Frank and the other pilot clearly hear the numbers when Ajira crashed. Rousseau's transmission played continously from 1988-2004 when she personally removed the tape in "Through the Looking Glass".

The plane can't have landed before 1988 because the Hydra station was functional then. We also know that the Hydra was still in use by the Others as late as December 2004 when they were constructing the runway.

The fact that the original message is now playing again tells us nothing about the present vs. the future, other than Ajira lands sometime after the Oceanic 6 rescue in January 2005. It also tells us nothing about whether the future has or has not been changed.

3. Sorry folks, Sun and Frank are not in Dharmaville, no matter how badly you want it to be so.

They land at a dock which is clearly distinguishable from the smaller Harbor dock near the barracks.

The Barracks have repeatedly been shown as nestled in a valley near the center of the island, confirmed by Ben's Temple map and Sayid's cabling map which he found at the Flame.

Lostpedia: "examination of screencaps from "The Man from Tallahassee", "The Man Behind the Curtain" and "Namaste" show at least three distinct docks on the Island, Pala Ferry dock, the Harbour and Warf dock and a different dock next to the Processing Center.

Evidence from "The Man from Tallahassee" points to the Harbour dock location next to the landlocked valley where the Barracks is located, based on the short walk Locke and Alex took there before Locke blew up the sub. It also has a covered bench at the top of the dock which is not found on the other dock.

The sub was also shown parked near a different dock, in "The Man Behind the Curtain", when it was used to transport the new recruits to the Island. This dock differs in both the lack of bench seating, and the addition of a white picket wood fencing that runs the last quarter or so of the dock on the land side. When Frank and Sun walk to the end of the dock, this fencing is seen in disaray, partially knocked over. ("Namaste")

This evidence suggests this dock was used to dock the sub when new recruits were arriving to induct them at the Processing Center, while the more convenient Harbour dock was used for other trips to and from the Barracks."

We have never seen the processing complex being used by any of the Others at anytime during the series, so its current condition tells us nothing about time frames or alternate futures.

In addition, there are screencaps available of Christian pulling the 1977 team picture off the wall. At his feet are a half-dozen picture frames laying in a jumble on the floor- years 1979 and on, perhaps?

4. Okay, now someone please explan to me why we believe TPTB are lying when they clearly indicate that the 1977 events are taking place 30 years from the Ajira events?

They've used the same device repeatedly (flashing a screen card with a date reference) throughout the series history to set the timeline for us, so they would change that method now....um...why, exactly??

#217. Posted by: Mizzed at March 20, 2009 10:23 PM

*********FINAL PODCAST HINT **********
One more thing...

TPTB "hypothesized" that Jacob told Ben to build the runway and that Jacob knew about 316. Ben was just following orders and trusted Jacob.

#218. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at March 20, 2009 10:25 PM

yes i have finally watched the latest episode, i suppose it was expecting too much for all of the people on the ajira flight to all land-crash in the same place-time, once again dr. shephard snr. is on hand to guide his flock (sun,frank) through these difficult times,- meanwhile we now have sawyers redneck con man talents saving the remainder of the stricken ajira group, good episode & a good review from you mac.

#219. Posted by: san at March 20, 2009 10:32 PM

Re; questions on outriggers. I don't think there's anything (yet) that can't be easil;y fit into a simple timeframe:

We were shown as early as season 3 that the Others sometimes used outrigger canoes to navigate between the Hydra and the main island.

So 3 outrigger canoes are left behind on the Hydra from past Other visits. Sun and Frank take one and paddle on over to the processing center dock for their meeting with Christian.

Frank and Sun will next either head to the barracks, or to the beach camp in search of their friends. We don't know whether they leave the canoe at the dock, or use it to get to the beach.

When they arrive at the beach camp, they will find it abandoned as it has not been used in 3 years, and has probably been overrun by our buddies the boars getting payback by scarfing up the remains of the outdoor Dharma cafe.

Other members of the Ajira camp will take either 1 or both of the remaining outriggers, and canoe over to the beach camp. Smart money would include some combination of Ben and Locke (to tussle over leadership) and Cesar (has a gun) and Ilana (looking for Sayid, may have a gun), as well as some associated "socks" who have nothing better to do.

This group also finds the beach empty and begins to explore in-land, leaving a water bottle behind in one of the canoes. Sawyer, et al, still reeling from their time shifts, foom there and finding the camp deserted, take one of the outriggers (bringing up the question of whether Locke will remember these events, having lived them from both sides).

Some of the Ajira group see/hear the Sawyer group and engage in pursuit, firing as they go (hence the importance of previously showing Cesar and the gun), until the Sawyer group mysteriously disapears from view as they foom on their merry way.

#220. Posted by: Mizzed at March 20, 2009 10:38 PM

If Faraday's "you can't change the past" theory is 100% wrong and you believe in looping, then:

* They hear the numbers on the plane in new, alternate future 2007 because Rousseau never recorded over the original transmission (side note: do we know who recorded those original numbers and when?).

* The Losties who appeared in the picture that Christian shows Sun and Lapidus actually foomed into the picture (i.e., the picture changed) in a McFlyan sort of way. Remember the whole pictures changing hoohah in ghostbuster Miles' flashback? When you change the past, future events and the pictures that capture them can change as well. In fact, maybe they foomed into the picture mere seconds before Christian showed it to them (even though they showed us the picture before the photo shoot). Maybe he's somehow able to see the 1977 and 2007 events concurrently and knew they'd be taking that group photo moments before he showed them the picture.

The whole runway thing strongly implies that someone was able to see the future and knew they were going to need a runway. How? I dare not venture to guess for fear of nosebleeding.

I'm on the side of Sun having Proxy-for-Jin Ring as the reason she didn't foom. If Ring = Jin and Jin + Jin in same time period is very bad, then she had to stay in the present. So the question is, will she bury the ring in her garden and go back to 1977 or will he come back to the future?

Here's a new prediction: Final season, final episode. Airport in Sydney....Jack on line....Charlie goes to the restroom (but occupied by Paolo). ....Flash screen to white....Plane lands in LA. They are found.

#221. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 20, 2009 11:12 PM

Sawyer's Big, Baggy, Bull Dog Sweatshirt -- Hurley is wearing it in the episode. After Sawyer brings the O6 a change of clothes for the 70's... The bull dog is up near the shoulder.

#222. Posted by: Amy at March 21, 2009 4:44 AM

Christian greeting Sun & Lapidus in that ruin of a Dharma building is intriguing. Is that building in a remote areas we haven't seen before? Because if it isn't...then did something happen to change the course of events to give us Dharma ruins rather than New Otherville?

Where was Locke for 3 years? My daughter in law (who lurks here) was wondering about that. Locke turned the DW at the same time that Jack, Kate, Hugo, Sun, Sayid, Lapidus got off the island. The returnees were in the real world for three years when Locke shows up and tells Widmore that he was on the island just 3 days ago.

Is that telling us that, at least as far as turning the DW goes, it is possible to leap from the present present to the future? We've seen people leap to the past and then leap from there forward to return to the present. But have we seen anyone prior to Locke leap from the present present to 3 years in the future?
My nose is bleeding.

#223. Posted by: undaunted at March 21, 2009 6:45 AM

Reading these posts is so infuriating at times!

Everybody SAYS they’ve read the previous posts, but obviously, NOBODY pays any attention to them. We get the same dumb questions or suppositions over and over!

Consider the last several postings. MIZZED gives a detailed and very accurate description of the different population locations on the island. Especially the definitive statement that “Otherville” is in a inner-island valley and the reception center is on the coast.

NEVERTHELESS, several posts later UNDAUNTED asks if that Dharma building Sun and Frank are in is in a remote area we haven’t seen before! Good Grief Folks! We just watched an episode with the Dharma Reception Building as the main character and you can’t recognize it boarded up and covered in cobwebs?!?

Read and retain. Read and retain.

#224. Posted by: DrivenCrazy at March 21, 2009 7:15 AM

I would like to read and retain but all the FOOMS make me forget what i've read.

#225. Posted by: clueless at March 21, 2009 8:05 AM

I'm not convinced that "what happened, happened" and the universe will course correct any attempts to change what happened. I mean, what the hell is the point of going back, coming back, sacrifical death,turning the fdw, etc. if it isn't possible to change what happened?

It's either predestination, in which case what's all the fuss about? Manipulation is useless because what will be will be. Just hang on and enjoy the ride.

Or it isn't predestination, in which case Yes, you can change the course of events.

So...Some Ajira passengers foom off the plane into 1977 while others land in 2007. Sayid is jailed as a Hostile and meets young Ben. That meeting might be the event which influences Ben's future decisions.

Does Ben end up not going over to The Hostiles? Is that what brought about a change in the course of events that resulted in Dharma ruins rather than New Otherton? Or maybe Ben does go over as he did before, but the presence of the Lostees in Dharmaville influences the outcome of his betrayal?

#226. Posted by: undaunted at March 21, 2009 8:08 AM

224 DrivenCrazy:
The best way to avoid being annoyed by my posts (or any else's posts)is for you not to read them. Because I assure you, it is the very thing which annoys you which is also the nature of the beast.

You sift through and ponder that which intrigues you and ignore that which annoys you.

With the exception of this particular post, that is what I do.

#227. Posted by: undaunted at March 21, 2009 8:34 AM

***Long post alert***

@ Mizzed 217

There's just one problem with your suggestion that the processsing center is not Dharmaville.

A close re-re-watch (yeah, third time's the charm and I'll probably be going for a fourth...man I love my HD pvr) clearly puts the processing center within Dharmaville. As I've already mentionned, when the recruits are outside the processing center, James, Rusincky and Jin come back with Sayid and bring him to the cells that we already know from previous episodes were connected directly to Ben's house through some tunnels.

Also, just before Sun pulls a "Ben" on Ben ("I lied"...man that was funny)he specifcaly tells her and Lapidus that across the water towards the south, there's dock that leads to a place he used to live, here's the transcript from Lostpedia:

BEN: That's right, Frank. A captain's first responsibility is to his passengers. But I have people I have to take care of, too. There's a small dock about a half mile due south across the water. It leads directly to a town where I used to live. There are resources there. You and the rest of the plane get out of here safely, it--

[Sun grunts]

LAPIDUS: I thought you trusted this guy.

SUN: I lied.

(I can still see the look on her face...)

So, the processing center should be in Dharmaville and in my humble opinion (IMHO to new bloggers, hey a little "shorthand" education is always good), there's no way that the others would have taken over everything and left that particular building untouched.

I believe that this with the numbers and, let us not forget, what seems to be Faraday's notes in a Hydra office's filing cabinet, lead me to believe that something was changed by our hippie time-travelers and that Dharmville 2007 is a result of the course correction that insued.

Either that or, maybe Dharma came back on the Island in present time (2004-2007) after the 06 left and our other friends started fooming.

I still think this is a stretch, I believe the writing of the last epi tried to show a direct relation of the same place (processing center) at 2 different moments in time, hinting to the fact that the 70's losties were going to change something rather than to the fact that Dharma came back and left in the past 3 years

#228. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 21, 2009 10:22 AM

Finally, not that long of a post...

#229. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 21, 2009 10:24 AM

@ undaunted 223

Ben leaped 9 months into the futur when he turned the FDW.

So yes, turning the FDW not only gets you a one-way ticket to Tunisia, it seems to send you some time in the future

#230. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 21, 2009 10:44 AM

From Lostpedia:
"The harbor is within a short walking distance of the Barracks, and appears to be in some sort of lagoon. It is notable for the wharf that sits on its shores. It is not nearly as big as the Pala Ferry pier, and only looks big enough to house one vessel at a time. The Submarine was stored here as of "The Man from Tallahassee"."

Sun and Frank landed a short wharf and walked into Dharmaville compound to the processing center.
Sawyer "drove" Kate, Jack and Hurley from the Ferry pier where the sub docked to the processing station while Juliet created the new paperwork. As I said previously, the story line was weak in this regard because someone on the submarine or at the dock when greeted would have noticed three more people than were on the sub (especially in a paranoid, high level of security with the Others).

#231. Posted by: welh at March 21, 2009 10:44 AM

A few theories:

Why did they build the runway? Jin tells Radzinsky in 1977 to look for a plane. Sometime between then and now -– my guess is when Oceanic 815 crashes in 2004 -- Richard or Jacob puts two and two together and realizes that Jin, along with Kate, Jack, Hugo and Sawyer, are from the "present" and some of them came back to 1977 on a plane from 2007. Richard/Jacob know a plane is coming to the island in 2007 because Jin told them so and thus they built the runway.

Why are the barracks boarded up and who finished the runway? After the Others went to the Temple before the time flashes, maybe they went back to the barracks, boarded them up for reasons still unknown, then, on Jacob or Richard's orders, went back to Hydra island to finish the runway.

Why was the runway built on Hydra? Maybe the Ajirans aren't supposed to get to the main island because they're not supposed to be there in the first place except for the O-6 and possibly Frank so they are basically being quarrantined on Hydra.

Handcuffs: I like how Sayid and Sawyer handcuffed Jin in season 1 and now I bet Sawyer and Jin will uncuff Sayid in a bit of looping "what comes around goes around" karma.

#232. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 21, 2009 1:03 PM

DANTHWWSBS? Did anyone notice that Hurley was wearing Sawyer's bulldog sweatshirt?

#233. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 21, 2009 1:52 PM

@ 162.: I thought the same thing about the coincidence between Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley all being in Dharma in 77 and being the people on the "list" Ben had given to Michael in Season 2! But didn't know if I was weird for thinking that much into it. Then again this is Lost and you can never think too much into the storylines!

#234. Posted by: LostAddictKC at March 21, 2009 2:18 PM

→ 217. Posted by: Mizzed

Thanks Mizzed for the clarification on docks and buildings. Is pent some time at Lostpedia and could not find the info. Thanks again.

and thanks too for the different villages on the island.

And I am not saying TPTB are lying about 30 years.

Can I assume that the deserted camp scene is in the same time frame as the dock with Sun, Lapidus and Dr. dad?

Then that scene at the camp is in the future compared to the scene at the dock, because there is one outrigger at that dock and 2 more at the hydra crash site. there were two canoes at the lost camp site they jumped to.

So 30 years is still right but it could be in the latter part of thelast year of that 30 year time span and so be in the future.

Maybe the losties in two groups have to work things out at both ends to make things come out even.
I did not think they were in the past, in dharmville.

My surmising that time had changed things was based on the idea that there was just one village. This also explains the many cottages at dharmaville and the few at otherville.

1515151515151515151515155151515151515
228. Posted by: Prosecutor67

BEN: That's right, Frank. A captain's first responsibility is to his passengers. But I have people I have to take care of, too. There's a small dock about a half mile due south across the water. It leads directly to a town where I used to live. There are resources there. You and the rest of the plane get out of here safely, it--


All right. Just how wishy washy can I be?????? sooooo easily influenced :o
This also makes sense (says Tevya).

I need to find those map makers and check out what they have found...fkas;dkgatubUWT3BB;ASEBP
16161616161616161616161616161616161616
→ 231. Posted by: welh

From Lostpedia:
"The harbor is within a short walking distance of the Barracks, and appears to be in some sort of lagoon. It is notable for the wharf that sits on its shores. It is not nearly as big as the Pala Ferry pier, and only looks big enough to house one vessel at a time. The Submarine was stored here as of "The Man from Tallahassee"."Sun and Frank landed a short wharf and walked into Dharmaville compound to the processing center.
Sawyer "drove" Kate, Jack and Hurley from the Ferry pier where the sub docked to the processing station while Juliet created the new paperwork. As I said previously, the story line was weak in this regard because someone on the submarine or at the dock when greeted would have noticed three more people than were on the sub (especially in a paranoid, high level of security with the Others).

I feel like one of the losties. Who do I trust? Obviously Lostpedia is unreliable and I have to trust myself. SO I will re watch again and look at the site with frame by frame of the epi. Good Grief.

#235. Posted by: berkyo at March 21, 2009 4:52 PM

One of the great things about Lost is how we can have vigorous debates when all we have are partial facts. Our minds always have to fill in the gaps.

Every attempt at incorporating all of the various maps shown over the course of the series into one definitive island map have failed, which I'm sure are the TPTB's intention.

The dock that Frank and Sun landed on is clearly not the harbor dock attached to the barracks, or the Pala Ferry dock (which was my original impression). All we know is that this dock is attached to the Processing Center, and that it is a reasonable walk or short drive from the barracks (but NOT in the barracks themselves).

The processing center has only been shown in Dharma flashbacks, and never in post-purge times. So the whole argument about whether or not Dharmaville has been changed hinges on facts we don't have and events we have not been shown.

There is no real evidence on when Ajira landed, other than the title card that placed it 30 years from 1977, or 2007. For most people that's enough, but for others it isn't.

But here's where my skepticism kicks in- if I'm a member of the creative team for Lost, am I really going to change all of the previously established "rules" in the middle of the second to last season?

We've seen multiple planes, boats and helicopters travel through the window/boundary that surrounds the island, and none of them have been catapulted years into the future or into the past.

TPTB spent an excruciating amount of time during the freighter episodes establishing that a day or so may be lost or gained (and yes, day turns into night) when making the passage to or from the island. Why change that now?

How many crazy episodes have we seen where characters could not be killed because the future can not be changed? How many pens did Claire go through when she tried to exercise her free will at the agency and give Aaron up for adoption?

TPTB have cited the Desmond episodes as Lost "primers" for how time works in the Lost universe. And what was the fundamental concept behind those episodes? That the future can not be changed, and that free will is limited to sacrificing oneself for the greater good and to their pre-destined fate.

Why change that now?

Darlton has told us repeatedly that paradoxes and alternate universes do not exist in the Lost story. When an Orchid worker asked Chang if someone could go back in time and change future events to kill Hitler, Chang called him absurd.

If you accept my argument that all of the time travel, FDW shifts and "looping" occurs to make sure the future happens exactly as it always has happened and as it always will happen, then everything in Lost is consistent and works within an understandable timeline.

If you believe that the future can (and perhaps must) be changed, and that we are already seeing clues to that effect, then everything that we've seen the last 4 1/2 years becomes murky, every interaction, conversation and event suddenly becomes suspect as to whether it actually occurred, and there never will be a sustainable timeline that will make sense for all six seasons of this show.

Absolutely I may be wrong, and the bloggers here that are convinced that the future has been definitively changed may be right. But I couldn;t think of a worse way for Lost to squander away its legacy as a show that could be watched and rewatched for decades to come.

#236. Posted by: Mizzed at March 21, 2009 6:27 PM

I am not calling you or any one else wrong. As a matter of fact, it is the different opinions that I come here for. I did not hear the numbers myself, but did wonder at the buildings and the docks.

You probably are wright about not having enough info to say for sure, and the docks are really confusing. I did go to the map maker and his maps are fantastic, but even he is having trouble making things come out where should be because it is not a real place.

But this is confusing too. You say:
If you accept my argument that all of the time travel, FDW shifts and "looping" occurs to make sure the future happens exactly as it always has happened and as it always will happen, then everything in Lost is consistent and works within an understandable timeline.

So why would they have to make sure it happened as is always had and should happen? This implies that something happened that should not have happened. And how that can be if your argument is valid? Perhaps the island is not outside of space and time and Faraday's argument does not apply there? Or Perhaps the incident causes a rip in the s/t continuum?

BTW all my comments are said with a thoughtful (sometimes puzzled)smile and I take everyone else's that way too. Except for that one person who blasted undaunted. ;)

#237. Posted by: berkyo at March 21, 2009 7:03 PM

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29143

this is the map site I have been going to. It is amazing.

#238. Posted by: berkyo at March 21, 2009 7:06 PM

@ Mizzed 236

I'm still a firm believer of the "rules", but in the context of the bigger picture. What I mean is, it depends what you consider it in relation to.

Ultimately, what is your destiny. You must fullfill your destiny or the universe will course correct until you do.

Michael couldn't die because he had to be on the freghter to know that cooling the bomb would delay it blowing up. Why did he have to do that, who knows, Probably to save someone else (Jin maybe...)

TPTB are pretty sneaky because for a long time, I believed that Charlie was supposed to die the first time Desmond saved him. But when you think about it, Charlie had to be in the looking glass station to punch in the code (good vibrations...). So Des always had to keep him from dying untill that point.

I'm not saying I'm convinced something is different, anyway, who knows, we didn't see what happened on the island from 2004 to 2007. Maybe someone just turned the numbers back on after the losties left...could be that simple.

As per Berkyo, that's exactly why I love this show, I haven't done so much research on a variety of subjects since high school. Also, my brain has never been this stimulated by a TV show.

I have never had to think so much while being entertained...the best of both worlds!

#239. Posted by: Prosecuto67 at March 21, 2009 8:05 PM

only on lost could a mechanic know there was a sub comming in the afternoon but the head of security had no knowlege of this event, but we have to remember this is no ordinary mechanic, juliet is & has always benn an "other" she has her ear to the ground 24/7 i guess it came with her training to be an other.

#240. Posted by: san at March 21, 2009 8:50 PM

#237 Berkyo
Thank you for your support!

Also, you said,
"So why would they have to make sure it happened as it always had and should happen? This implies that something happened that should not have happened."

Exactly! If what happens happens then why is everyone trying so damned hard to make it happen...you were supposed to turn the fdw but you didn't, yet it is essential that you turn it. You didn't die, yet it is essential that you die. You guys left yet, you weren't supposed to leave so now it is essential that you return.

I totally reject the concept of predestination.

I think it is all very silly UNLESS you can change what happens. And I don't have a problem reconciling everything that has occured thus far on LOST. It's like one of those "make your own adventure books" for kids...the ending changes depending on the decisions you make along the way. With regard to time travel, that makes as much sense to me as it is possible to make.

#241. Posted by: undaunted at March 21, 2009 9:20 PM

So I barely read any of the posts but I just wanted to say a few things.

1. Jack needs to realized that he's not in charge anymore. If it wasn't for Sawyer, he'd be dead. Everyone knows my opinion on this one -- Sawyer should have just let Jack and Kate die... and save Hurley and Sayid.

2. LITTLE BEN IS BACK!!! With longer hair. Yes, I did recognize him from the second we saw him and it was confirmed when we heard his voice asking if he could give him a sandwich. Yes, I know everyone else realized it was him too, just thought I'd point that out though.

3. I should have probably checked if someone said this before, but does anyone else think that Ben knew who everyone was because he grew up with them around him? Do you think he recognized Sawyer and Sayid when they came to the island?

Speaking of which, that goes back to what was discussed in last week's review... When someone said (I forgot who it was) that Juliet reminded him of someone he used to know, we all assumed that it was Annie. What if it WAS actually Juliet herself?

Speaking of Annie, I wonder if she was friends with Charlotte.

I'm actually confusing myself thinking about it. Sorry if this post was a waste. I should probably read now...

By the way -- GRAA Mac! Loved the Hurley quote too!

#242. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 21, 2009 9:27 PM

@ Plain Simple - 9
"I'm starting to really dislike Jack and Kate. They're just looking for problems everywhere they go, it seems."

Thank you!!! Even though you don't like when I vent about hating them, glad you're starting to agree! =]

#243. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 21, 2009 9:33 PM

i was never scared by a harry potter movie so when i saw young ben taking some food to sayid i thought ohh how nice! then i saw these eyes ben has even as a boy, it destroyed the cute factor.

#244. Posted by: san at March 21, 2009 9:46 PM

berkyo- thanks for the great map link, it's amazing how much time and effort so many people have invested into deciphering a television show.

****
@237/berkyo:

"So why would they have to make sure it happened as is always had and should happen? This implies that something happened that should not have happened."

Excellent comment. I should have been a lot more careful with my wording.

I agree that there are two possible outcomes ahead: one where the island (and with it, the earth) is saved, and one where it is destroyed/lost.

What I should have said is there is only one future path that leads to the island being saved. That "correct" path can not be changed, and for the Losties who must walk that path, their free will is limited to accepting their pre-destined fate.

The characters can pretend that they've escaped their destiny, but that happiness is a mirage- Desmond and Penny on the boat, the Oceanic 6 trying to live normal lives, Sawyer and Juliet living in 70's domestic bliss. Ultimately all of them must return to the path, and via that sacrifice, they will find redemption (perfect example= Michael's storyline).

Because the island and the world must be saved, the "bad" outcome is unacceptable and can not be allowed to occur. Therefore the "right" future path will happen exactly as it always has happened and as it always must happen.

Everything we've seen over the last five years is the Lost characters, knowingly and unknowingly, working through that one correct solution.

I believe that after the series is over, fans will be able to re-edit the series into one chronological narrative that will fit together into a cohesive whole.

And that's my main argument why the Dharma fall must happen at Ben's hands in the 90's, just as it always has. For example, if Dharma fell in 1978 because of something our characters do, then there's no Swan station in 2004, no Kelvin and Desmond, no button pushing, no Boone sacrifice, no Locke crisis of faith, no Henry Gale in the weapons room, no manipulation of Michael at the computer, no Eko being hurt in the explosion- and on and on. Essentially, the second half of season 1 and the entire season 2 goes away, vanishes as if it never happens.

On the other hand, if Dharma isn't extinguished because Sawyer, et al save/warn them, then Juliet is never recruited, Ethan is never born, the freighter never comes, Ben is never operated on by Jack, Sun never leaves the island and instead dies in childbirth, Jack dies when his appendix bursts- essentially all of season 3 and 4 goes away.

I just don't believe that TPTB are going to wish away all of their first four seasons of work as an alternate timeline that we later find out was all just a dead end.

#245. Posted by: Mizzed at March 21, 2009 9:54 PM

@241/undaunted: "I totally reject the concept of predestination."

Really?

Then why can't Michael kill himself, or be killed by Keamy?

Why can't Jack leap off the bridge? Or reject the idea of returning back to the island? Why can't any of the Oceanic 6 simply refuse to return?

Why do Jack and Desmond run the stairs in the stadium on the very same night?

How does a car crash years before between Adam Rutherford and Sarah result in Boone, Shannon, Christian and Ana Lucia all ending up in Sydney at the very same time?

Why does Christian end up at the very same Sydney bar at the very same time as Sawyer?

Why can't Claire give Aaron up for adoption?

Why can't Des marry Penny? Why can't he sail away from the island? Why does he see the rip in Inman's suit on the very same afternoon that Oceanic is in the air?

Why does Locke bang on the hatch on the same night that Des is contemplating suicide?

Why does Jin foom to the exact moment when he is needed to save Rousseau? Or Juliet to a time when she will be needed to save Ethan? Or Locke to a time before his birth to meet Richard?

Why can't Charlie live? Why does Des see Charlie, the musician, turn off the jammer that was programmed by a musician?

Abaddon suggests to Locke the walkabout, but Locke must prepare, buy the travel package, take time off from his work, etc. How does he end up in Sydney at the same exact time as everybody else on that flight?

For that matter, other than Claire, Jin and Sun, how does anybody end up on the same exact Oceanic flight? As an example, if Sayid's friend doesn't kill himself, Sayid flies out a day earlier. Do you believe it was random chance that they all ended up on that flight?

How does Lapidus end up as the pilot on the Ajira flight?

How does a spinal surgeon end up crashing on an island where its leader has just been diagnosed with a spinal tumor?

How does Hurley see the numbers on his odometer? Why does he play the lottery numbers that he overheard from Leonard? In fact, why are the numbers everywhere? Random chance?

I realize I've beaten this point into a bloody pulp, but seriously, this list could go on for ever........

#246. Posted by: Mizzed at March 21, 2009 10:41 PM

Good list Mizzed.

I agree with all that. But if the losties are being guided to "fix" something that will result in the end of mankind/the island/whatever, then something went wrong and somewhere/sometime, the rules were broken and time WAS changed, When/wherever that was must mark a point where the universe has been trying to get things right again. Couldn't one or some of the things that we have seen happen, be wrong? If we have seen the thing/event that the universe is trying to correct - and therefore events followed that should NOT have happened, then we might not know what should have happened.

Remember Faraday telling Desmond how special he is in regard to the rules of time? And Ben saying "you changed the rules" to Widmore? It seems some people have the ability to change these rules and therefore changed what happened.

#247. Posted by: berkyo at March 21, 2009 11:15 PM

@228/Prosecutor67: "A close re-re-watch (yeah, third time's the charm and I'll probably be going for a fourth...man I love my HD pvr) clearly puts the processing center within Dharmaville."

I followed your lead and rewatched those scenes to see what I had missed. Here's the order of scenes:

1. Jack and Kate are in the processing center interacting with Chang, Phil and Juliet.

2. Frank and Sun have their encounter in same processing center with Christian.

3. All the recruits are at a welcome BBQ in the barracks when Sawyer pulls up with Sayid.

Problem is that scenes #1 and #3 aren't connected- you can't see the barracks in scene #1, or the processing center in scene #3. We have no idea how the group got from scene #1 to scene #3 (walk, drive, etc), or whether it was a close trip or a long one.

Like most of Lost, it leaves us firmly in the "if but and maybe" territory.

#248. Posted by: Mizzed at March 22, 2009 1:11 AM

@ mizzed 248

After further review (I sound like a football ref...) I must agree with you that like alot of things about Lost, it's to close to call.

Seeing young Ben got me thinking, Widmore should still be on the Island and leader of the "hostiles". I'm thinking that TPTB might let us see Ben and Widmore's first meet. I have a feeling they met when Ben was young because in the scene where Ben goes to Widmore's penthouse, Widmore refers to him as "boy". As if it were a habit.

Just a thought

#249. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 22, 2009 9:01 AM

As several people have asked above and it was in my podcast hints notes you may not have read I will repeat part of my post. TPTB said that Jacob told Ben to build the runway and Ben followed orders. Who/what Jacob is and how he knew is the bigger question.

#250. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at March 22, 2009 10:31 AM

246 Mizzed:

I understand your reasoning. But I disagree with some of the examples you offer. With regard to the people who can't die "until the island is done with them"...Agreed. That is a puzzlement!

With regard to the coincidences...Agreed that there is synchronicity all over the place! But synchronicity is common place in real life, it's just that we aren't always aware of it. My Sweetheart being dear friends with the absolute stranger who convinced me to apply for a job that ended up changing both my Sweetheart's life and my life. The older good friend of my ex-husband who met a man in the Philipines as a merchant marine and for years told my ex stories about his many dinners with the family of the man he met in the Philipines, a family in San Francisco, which turned out to be my grandparents, uncles and aunts, my father. The two young soldiers at a deli counter in Gresham Oregon who were complaining of a drill Sgt in Virginia...who happened to be my son!
The cable car my sister insisted we not get on, crashing a few minutes later and seriously injuring passengers.

It really and truly and actually happens all the time. I too could go on and on!

In short: I don't think the coincidences are evidence of predestination.

#251. Posted by: undaunted at March 22, 2009 1:15 PM

#247 Berkyo:

I was just thinking about Desmond being "special".

Didn't we see Desmond leap backwards INTO himself? Is Desmond the only one whose consciousness leaps into his past/future body.

Everyone else leaps body into another time...the Lostee 4 disappearing from the Ajira flight, Jin disappearing before Rousseau's eyes. The Man From Talahassee appears on the island none the worse for wear.

If Desmond has the ability to leap consciousness from one time to another, then I wonder if that is Jacob's dilemma. If one's consciouness is leaping, what happens if the body they are leaping to in that time frame dies while they are leaping? Is their consciousness then forever disembodied? Is that what happened to Jacob?

Is that what sets Desmond apart from the others? That his consciousness, not his body, time travels?

#252. Posted by: undaunted at March 22, 2009 1:26 PM

228 Prosecutor67 reasoned:

>I believe that this with the numbers and, let us not forget, what seems to be Faraday's notes in a Hydra office's filing cabinet, lead me to believe that something was changed by our hippie time-travelers and that Dharmville 2007 is a result of the course correction that insued.

>Either that or, maybe Dharma came back on the Island in present time (2004-2007) after the 06 left and our other friends started fooming.

Another possibility is that Dharma abandoned the place sometime post 1977, it fell into disrepair, was visited by fooming Sun/Frank, and then, after th purge, the Others took it over and fixed it back up to what our Losties saw in 2004.

#253. Posted by: Cecil at March 22, 2009 2:05 PM

And Cecil [#253] said: “Another possibility is that Dharma abandoned the place sometime post 1977, it fell into disrepair, was visited by fooming Sun/Frank, and then, after th purge, the Others took it over and fixed it back up to what our Losties saw in 2004.”

And you know, we could fix it up again in 2009. I know we can, because I heard that guy who’s in the White House say we were in for a wonderful change if we would just elect him . . . We just need a little stimulus money . . . O Mr. Geithner? Mr. Geithner . . . ?! . .

O wait. I just watched Vice President Biden’s economic advisor on George Stephanoloulos’ THIS WEEK show . . . I think I must be getting mixed up between fact and fantasy . . .

It happens often these days.

#254. Posted by: davidrh at March 22, 2009 3:09 PM

#255

Don’t write scalding political comebacks!!!! It was just meant to be funny.


:-)

#255. Posted by: davidrh at March 22, 2009 3:12 PM

*************** SPOILER***************
Thought this was in interesting tidbit in light of the recent predestination debate here. IMDB lists the name of episode 14 this season as The Variable, airing April 29. Could mean anything, of course, but I bet it will shed some light on the issue.

#256. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 22, 2009 4:08 PM

Presecutor #228: "I believe that this with the numbers and, let us not forget, what seems to be Faraday's notes in a Hydra office's filing cabinet, lead me to believe that something was changed by our hippie time-travelers and that Dharmville 2007 is a result of the course correction that insued."

I wonder if what changed is that in 1977 young Ben met a jailed man who he thought was a "Hostile".

#257. Posted by: undaunted at March 22, 2009 5:14 PM

Jack, Kate, Hugo, Miles, Jin, Sawyer and Juliet are sitting in Lafleur's living room, after a hard day's of Dharma work.

Hurley: have I told all you guys before, that I'm frequently visited by dead people? It's true. I've talked to Charlie, mr Eko, Ana Lucia and others. They tell me Island stuff, and give me advice and messages. We even play chess. Isn't that weird?

Miles raises his hand: Uhm, that's not weird at all. I can sense dead people. Once, when I was 15, I...

Jack, interrupting, teary eyed: Locke hanged himself. It was my fault. Because I didn't believe him. He told me he met my father on the Island. My dead father. And then I saw him as well. He... (breathes heavily)

Miles: ... was going to Disneyland with my family, and...

Kate: was his name Christian? He took Aaron from me. He said that if I told anyone, we would all die.

Hugo: Wait, what?

Kate: And he said that I would conceive my own son that same day, as compensation.

Jack breathes heavily.

Sawyer: We saw a giant, Egyptian looking statue, when we foomed to the past. And remember the hieroglyphics in the hatch? I've seen them elsewhere on the Island as well. Now I've met that eyeliner guy and I have a theory...

Juliet interrupts: I know what the smoke monster is.

(Silence)

Miles: ... we had a car accident. And I saw my...

Jin: I saw smoke monster in the past. I saved Danielle Rousseau from it.

Juliet: It's sort of a hyve mind of ghosts. Spirits, who have been denied entrance to the realm of the dead. Angry, frustrated. Here, on the Island, this hyve mind can physically manifest itself. It's like an angry child. A highly intelligent, angry child playing God, judging the living. The Others managed to contain it, even manipulate it into defending them against invaders.
Oh, and Alpert was captain of the Black Rock.

Daniel knocks on the door: hey guys? I know why we're here, and what has to happen next.

A deep, booming voice speaks from somewhere above: John Locke here. I'm Jacob now.

Miles: dead brother climbing out of the wreck.

Hugo: dude, that's creepy.

Little Ben, slithering into the room from an opening panel in the wall: Sandwich, anyone?

#258. Posted by: Tenpenny at March 22, 2009 6:05 PM

250. Posted by: Addicted
I did read your post and thank you for reminding me to check on them. They are so infrequent that i forget about them.

Jacob is a real puzzle. It better be a good explanation when we do find out!

23232323232323232323232323
252. Posted by: undaunted
Is that what sets Desmond apart from the others? That his consciousness, not his body, time travels?

not sure. I think Desmond actually blanked out in one time and brain woke in another time, as you say in his own body. so what does that mean???? maybe he can change time beacuse he is actually living in a time period for the first time when his brain from the future jumps back and he can live and make decisions based on knowledge of the future, before he actually lives it? Does this make any sense?

4242424242424242424242424242

Someone also mentioned Faraday's maps in the filing cabinet. This is interesting too. Faraday could have put them back there or maybe he never took them out.

Lots of fun trying to figure this out. We are probably all wrong.

But I do think we were meant top see something fishy and be ready.

BTW SPOILER?

The next episode is called "He's our you."
what the heck does that mean?

#259. Posted by: berkyo at March 22, 2009 6:19 PM

→ 259. Posted by: berkyo
The next episode is called "He's our you."
what the heck does that mean?

**** Potential SPOILER *****

Thought I read someplace that it might be referring to Sayid, and that Dharma has an interrogator "of their own".

#260. Posted by: IslandHopper at March 22, 2009 7:18 PM

http://postsecret.blogspot.com/

Check out the second to last one. =]

#261. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 22, 2009 8:19 PM

i have a feeling the next episode will have to get back to the desmond story, it could possibly show us what occurred if ben visited penny as he promised, i also hope to find out what became of twitchy dan, maybe even what happened to rose & bernard - or vincent (the dog), it has been a few weeks since we had any info at all about these characters.

#262. Posted by: san at March 22, 2009 8:34 PM

New subject:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Lenny
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Radzinsky

Here are pictures of Radzinsky and Lenny.

When I first saw Radz I thought "Hey! That's Lenny!" I really think they are identical. Anybody else think this and if so what does that mean? He didn't die in swan? He went nuts and wound up in the same place as Hurley? and Libby?

#263. Posted by: berkyo at March 22, 2009 9:11 PM

@ 263-berkyo
it took me a few minutes after reading your post, but yes i know what you mean, i would have never made the link between them

#264. Posted by: san at March 22, 2009 9:39 PM

@263 berkyo asked:

>Here are pictures of Radzinsky and Lenny.

>When I first saw Radz I thought "Hey! That's Lenny!" I really think they are identical. Anybody else think this and if so what does that mean? He didn't die in swan? He went nuts and wound up in the same place as Hurley? and Libby?

You do notice they're played by two different actors, right?

#265. Posted by: Cecil at March 23, 2009 9:30 AM

@ 236. Posted by: Mizzed
"Darlton has told us repeatedly that paradoxes and alternate universes do not exist in the Lost story. When an Orchid worker asked Chang if someone could go back in time and change future events to kill Hitler, Chang called him absurd.

If you accept my argument that all of the time travel, FDW shifts and "looping" occurs to make sure the future happens exactly as it always has happened and as it always will happen, then everything in Lost is consistent and works within an understandable timeline."

There is an unpopular, alternative premise that avoids the paradoxes, time looping and alternative timelines: all the characters are dead. They are in the realm of the underworld being tested on their Egyptian inspired gods prior to final judgment of their souls.

#266. Posted by: welh at March 23, 2009 9:47 AM

Mizzed, thanks for your posts. You totally cleared it up for me. I agree with the geography of the Dharma processing center vs. Dharmaville. Because the show doesn't spend a lot of time showing the characters traveling between the two, it is easy to get confused. But it totally makes sense now... they are separately located.

I read the other comments and I am still a bit confused about what YEAR the 316-ers are in. I know they LEFT in 2007.

But the runway is there ... so it's definitely POST-2004. But the numbers are still running -- that's where I get confused.

#267. Posted by: DCMatt at March 23, 2009 12:11 PM

Why isn’t Ethan’s last name Goodspeed? Where did Rom come from?

The woman behine Sun = Harper???

#268. Posted by: HKA at March 23, 2009 3:42 PM

@ 46 mac
thanks for the sledgeweb link mac, i didn't see anyone behind sun in that scene, the picture at the top of the link was still difficult to make out, the second brighter picture shows the best view of the woman in the background.

#269. Posted by: san at March 23, 2009 6:40 PM

You do notice they're played by two different actors, right?
→ 265. Posted by: Cecil

yeah, I went to IMDB and looked them up. I just thought it was odd that they looked so much alike!

#270. Posted by: berkyo at March 23, 2009 8:24 PM

@252/undaunted: "Didn't we see Desmond leap backwards INTO himself? Is Desmond the only one whose consciousness leaps into his past/future body."

Actually, up until this year, this is how ALL time travel appeared in the Lost universe- consciousness (not physical) jumping only. Des experienced the same thing Minkowski, Charlotte and Faraday's assistant did- disorientation, temporary catatonic states, bloody noses, and if not fixed by introduction of a "constant", death.

The only exception to this has been travel to and from the island- from small (the 1 day lost or gained between the island and the freighter), or large (months or years lost when exiting via the FDW-Tunisia express).

Minkowski and Charlotte died- no constant. Des was saved by Penny. In the middle is Faraday's assistant, lost in some type of semi-permanent suspended state- her consciousness stays back in time rather than jumping back and forth, apparently saving her from fatal brain damage.

So has time jumping changed this year?

The island can't move back in time- the 2004 version would run right into itself in 1954, 1974, etc. Like Chang's bunnies, the same object or person can not co-exist with itself in the same moment of time.

If this is true, it explains why Richard and most of the others don't jump in time- there can not be two Richards co-existing in the same place at the same time.

It would also help explain why Ben didn't foom off the plane- he already exists on the island in 1977. Same thing for why Charlotte died before re-entering Dharmatime in the 70's. (this would also kill any Miles is Chang's baby speculation- he couldn't co-exist with his own baby self).

But if time-jumping is consciousness only, as we've been led to believe for four years, how can the Sawyer group and Jack group go back in time?

The fact they are living their lives in 1977 seems to violate everything we know about time travel in the Lost world, unless their bodies (like Faraday's assistant) are actually laying somewhere in the jungle in 2007, in an apparently coma-like state, while their minds live their life out in 1977.

They would then each have a constant- someone they know both in 1977 and 2007. Could Ben be their constant? Are they each other's constant?

And if they were never on the island in 1977, how could they consciousness-jump to a place and time they never existed in?

I suppose the alternative explanation is that the "broken" FDW physically removed the Sawyer group from 2004 and deposited them in 1977. But then how do you explain the Jack group being apparently physically transported off the plane ala Star Trek?

With only two days to go, it looks like there will be 150-200 fewer posts this episode than any other epi this season. Are people getting turned off by the confusing time travel plots?

#271. Posted by: Mizzed at March 23, 2009 11:36 PM

@124 BELost: "SO, why do we assume that the 316'rs including Locke, Lapidus, Sun, and Ben are in 2007, the "current timeline"? From the looks of Dharmatown and the Hydra office Ceasar was in, it could be several more years, even a decade or two into the future."

We don't know for sure that it is in 2007. We DO know for sure that it is sometime after 2004, because of the existence of the losties camp (where the outriggers with the Ajira bottle wind up) and the existence of the runway, which was still being built circa 2004 (and probably finished by the Others between 2004 and 2008. I say 2008 because everyone keeps saying that Ajira 316 crashed in 2007, however the Oceanic 6 weren't "found" until January of 2005. If three years passed since they were rescued, the current, future-most time on the show should actually be early 2008, not 2007). As you suggest, maybe they somehow wound up in the future, beyond 2008, but based on the information we have right now, I guess everyone is just assuming that Ajira 316 crashed in the "present" time, the same time the Oceanic 6 were living in off the island. After this episode, and the whole night/daytime shift the plane went through, it seems to me that they must have gone through some time-travelling, even if it was only for a short duration.

#272. Posted by: Stocky at March 23, 2009 11:51 PM

@ Mizzed 271

I make a distiction between these 2 types of "time-travelling".

The first (Des, Charlotte, etc...), is more or less a state of consciousness. When Des went back after turning the key, his mind thought he was living these things for the first time untill he started predicting things, that's when he realized he was "re-living" his past.

When you think about it, the problem is only in the fact that your brain starts frying because it can't get a grip on which time you are actually in. It can't distinguish between a memory (past), reality (present) and a premonition (future). Remember, the only "future" traveling that we've seen of this kind would be Desmond's premonitions of Charlie's death and Faraday's experiment with Eloise. All other time-travel of this sort, seems to be linked more to the past than the future.

Type 2 time travel is what I call what Sawyer and the gang went through. Physical + temporal displacement: your body and your mind are in sync. Your body physicaly follows your brain (or vice-versa), you actually leave the now to go wherever your other part is (past or future). Seems that your brain still has a hard time dealing with this situation (nosebleed anyone...)

What we saw when Sawyer witnessed Claire giving birth seems to disprove your theory that the 2 bunnys can't be in the same time-zone. I believe it's more a question of not meeting than not being. If not, it would mean that Sawyer, John, Miles, Charlotte and Faraday (not to mention Rose and Bernard...where are those 2 BTW) all got foomed out of what they were doing the first time around to be walking together at that point.

Doesn't work for me...mainly because it contradicts Faraday's first rule of time travel: what ever happened, happened.

One thing I've always wondered since we've been initiated to time-travel on Lost, is whether or not you can actually travel to the future.

See, for me, Dan's experiment with Eloise wasn't really the future, it was the past in relation to Des's life (or timeline). It was only the future in relation to where they were, that point in time, but not in relation to where the world (or at least Des) has been.

The past, present and future always depend on what you compare them with. Here's an example: someone who was born in 1950 and is living today (2009) will perceive 1975 to be his past. But if that person goes back to 1965, 1975 will "seem" to be the future but actually it isn't, because it's happened before.

My point being you may ask. Well, I wonder if one of the main storylines of Lost isn't the fact that everything has happened: from the beginning to the end of humanity and that what we are witnessing is in essence, all in the past. There's no "real' future as we perceive it because whatever happened, happened and it's ALL already happened!

I've wondered if that's not why Faraday was crying when he saw the 815 wreckage on TV: for some reason he remembers...he's been through it before and it reminds him of things to come ie: Charlottes's death.

I can't explain it all, 'cause then I would be Darleton woudn't I, but that was my best shot up to now.

Namaste! (which I beleive definately means "nosebleed" in some obscure language)

#273. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at March 24, 2009 8:10 AM

→ 271. Mizzed: "With only two days to go, it looks like there will be 150-200 fewer posts this episode than any other epi this season. Are people getting turned off by the confusing time travel plots?"

Yes.

That said, here are a few comments re last week's episode:

Great review as always Mac...& any news of additions to the Mac family?

EWTB = Ethan Was The Baby. ; )

One thing I think we need to remember about Christian is that he falls into a special category in the minds of TPTB: Christian, Yemi, & Kate's horse are the only characters listed as "undead" rather than "alive" or "dead."

Phil is a sneaky smarmy ferret of a guy.

Enjoyed Sun's whacking of Ben (sorry, I<3blxx) immensely. Also enjoyed even more immensely Sawyer's smackdown on Jack. Jack & Kate are perfect for each other—both pigheaded & short-sighted. (BTW, in the newest TV Guide is an article on Sawyer & Juliet's romance...interviews w/Josh Holloway & Elizabeth Mitchell).

Random question: How does Sun manage to hike all over a jungle island in pointy high heels?

Random comment: In 1977, Pierre Chang had two working arms.

#274. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 24, 2009 10:17 AM

@271: Mizzed - The time jumping is definitely not in mind only, and it's already been demonstrated that a person can in fact exist twice in the same time period. For instance, when Locke saw the light coming from the hatch, he was actually watching his own past from a distance. He consciously chose not to go there and "meet himself". His reasoning was that he is the person he is today because of the things he went through in the past and he was happy with where he is today so why go back and alter the past.

@272: Stocky - This has already been discussed at length. The fact that TPTB specifically display "30 years earlier" leads us to believe that, since we know the Losties in the past are sitting at 1977 then the Losties in the present are in 2007. And, yes, we are (or at least I am) pretty much taking their word for it, despite the many many many questions and valid points of contradiction that have arisen in the ongoing conversation over this past week.

#275. Posted by: LostedIt at March 24, 2009 11:51 AM

@271: Mizzed - One more thing I wanted to add. I actually don't know what would happen if someone were to actually meet themselves. What if they were to touch themselves? Would they blow up? Would they create a crack in the time/space continuum? Don't know if TPTB will "go there" or not. Perhaps the "incident" that will be the season finale involves that rather than Jughead, which is my current running theory.

#276. Posted by: LostedIt at March 24, 2009 11:55 AM

The bag that Little Ben gave Sayid contained a ham sandwich, which triggered Sayid to go all Jihad on the Dharma folks. Wait and see.....;)

#277. Posted by: Len at March 24, 2009 1:27 PM

Pierre Chang/Halliwax said in the training film -- when the same two rabbits were in the same room with each other -- "Don't let them near each other!". So it seems that you can be in the same time-frame with yourself, but it doesn't sound wise to get too close to yourself!!

#278. Posted by: DCMatt at March 24, 2009 3:44 PM

@ 277 Len - now THAT was funny! Thanks for the laugh amid all the serious Time Travel Talk.

Speaking of TTT - who was the rabbit's constant? Could experiments with those poor bunnies have caused the incident? Did Bunny #15 meet Bugs Bunny in another cartoon time line?

Can't believe it took me almost a week to get to read all the posts. Too much work, not enough time - unless of course you time travel.

Namaste. (I mean nose bleed.)

#279. Posted by: BunnyLover at March 24, 2009 3:59 PM

Maybe Ben's from My-hammy. Sorry, that was a bit hare-brained.

Here's a question -– who negotiated the truce between Dharma and the Others? Or do we not care. I'd ask Schrödinger but he never seems to be around when I'm looking for him.

SCARF = Schrödinger's Cat: Avoids replicating fooms.

Are we there yet?

Bugs' constant would have to be one of the physicians, don't you think?

#280. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 24, 2009 5:52 PM

→ 280. Scooby-Dude: Bugs' constant would have to be one of the physicians, don't you think?

Bug's constant is Elmer Fudd. Hmm...now which LOST character looks like Elmer Fudd... ; )

#281. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 24, 2009 7:08 PM

I'm not sure where the appropriate place to post this is, but last season's episode The Constant has been nominated for a Hugo Award in the category Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form. The Hugo Awards are given for outstanding science fiction. The other nominees in that category are:

Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
Battlestar Galactica - "Revelations"
Doctor Who - "Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead"
Doctor Who - "Turn Left"

#282. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 24, 2009 7:56 PM

Chiça! Finished! At last! I’m tired…

The numbers. It is confirmed.

Co-pilot – “Is that a runway?”
Lapidus – “Massive instrument failure! (...)”
Co-pilot – “Mayday, mayday, mayday! This is Ajira 3-1-6. Mayday, mayday, mayday!”
Voice – “4... 8... 15... 16... ”
Lapidus – “All flaps (…)”
And the transmission goes on in the back

#283. Posted by: PreacherOnun at March 24, 2009 8:29 PM

While reading all these posts I took some notes so this will be a long one…


@45. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes

Everybody knows Sawyer whispers “I have a daughter in Albuquerque. Could you find her for me? Clementine.”
Although all the noise from the helicopter it’s quite audible and comprehensible.


@149. Posted by: Mizzed

Locke was supposed to choose the compass! Remember? It’s the one he gave Richard in the first place. The one that came to existence by miracle. RA just wanted a confirmation.


@165. Posted by: Mizzed

“Free will in Lost means accepting one's path and destiny, not rewriting it.” - Totally agree with you!
In fact, events this season have already shown us that all the fooming back and forward in time is necessary to make sure that events we've seen in previous episodes will happen as they should.


@213. Posted by: 74

They landed in 2007 or after. And the clues are the water bottles on the outriggers with the Ajira logo, the deserted Hydra station and the abandoned Dharma New Recruits camp.


@215. Posted by: Addicted to LOST

No, no, no. No. The woman behind Sun is Claire, for sure. That’s not red hair, just light reflections. She’s blonde and the hair style matches Claire’s.
BTW, I have a crazy theory about Claire. I believe she died in the blast that destroyed her house. But she only realized she was dead when her father came to take her. The mystics say that this happens all the time with dead people. You can ask Miles.


@220. Posted by: Mizzed

The question is: of this bunch of marry men who gets shot by Juliette?


@221. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

“Remember the whole pictures changing hoohah in ghostbuster Miles' flashback?” – humm… interesting point.


@251. Posted by: undaunted

There aren’t such things as coincidences. All is absolutely perfect in God’s creation. Where you see plain luck, I see a miracle.


@262. Posted by: san

Next episode is about Sayid shouting out loud that “you’re all doomed” and trying to change things by his own, not realizing he’s just doing what he’s always meant to do.
The episode where Desmond gets back into the plot and, hopefully, we know if something happened to Penny after all, is episode 14 “The Variable”, airing April 29, as Scooby-Dude (#256) said.

#284. Posted by: PreacherOnun at March 24, 2009 8:37 PM

@241. Posted by: undaunted

The key here is, and always was, Jack Sheppard.

He’s surname is no coincidence. He’s the one that will be chosen to lead.
“He walks among us but is not one of us”. That’s what is written but that’s not what it means, remember?

Jack is the one who’s been skeptic all along. He is the one who, in the end, is going to admit that he was wrong and that his actions led to the happening that wasn’t suppose to happen, all because they left the island when they weren’t suppose to.

When he realizes this and acknowledges, finally, the importance of the Island, he will act accordingly to his newly acquired Faith and everything will be in place.

#285. Posted by: PreacherOnun at March 24, 2009 8:43 PM

Let me start by saying that I still believe that Jacob is Locke. But, due to something I read here, I developed another theory:


Pierre-Edgar-Marvin Chang-Halliwax-Candle is Jacob.

Someone mentioned the video sent 30 years to the future by Chang and Faraday, attempting somehow to avoid the purge.
Maybe, trying to do so, Chang time traveled ended up getting to close to himself destroying his body (or bodies), a la “matter – anti-matter” kind of thing, remaining in the Island only as a conscience being.

#286. Posted by: PreacherOnun at March 24, 2009 8:50 PM

@ 207 cecil rose
thanks for the link to your blog reader map cecil, i added myself to it, it killed some time for me since there's nothing decent on tv tonight lol, there are now 3 of us on the map from scotland, not exactly an army of fans but at least we are represented.

#287. Posted by: san at March 24, 2009 8:50 PM

@ 271. Posted by: Mizzed
"With only two days to go, it looks like there will be 150-200 fewer posts this episode than any other epi this season. Are people getting turned off by the confusing time travel plots?"

I, for one, usually skip posts when I see one trying to analyze time travel. Since this episode was more of a transitional episode to me and not a 'holy $#@*!'-type episode, I tend to quietly browse.

Now, going into tomorrow, I'm curious about Faraday's whereabouts.
I believe he's where we saw him in the first episode this season. Either he's there with or without Sawyer's knowledge. Or...he left on a sub and is back in his lab, this time with more data for his experiments and a different outcome for that poor girl he messed up.

#288. Posted by: 74 at March 24, 2009 10:10 PM

@284
I too think that claire is somehow dead... remember miles kept looking at her all funny after the explosion, and being the ghost whisperer he could probably feel she was dead. Her hanging out with christian last season in the cabin and 'abandoning' her son seemed to confirm it for me.


don't know whether zombie season has started, if jacob is involved, or if smokie is just in high gear but she was actin mighty weird in that cabin... (like yemi did right before ecko was killed, and like danielle's crew did after the descent into smoky's hole). we know that dead, unburied bodies on the island tend to disappear and then a 'living' version of that person will appear (christian, yemi, john locke... possibly claire... and possibly danielle's crew?). and then didn't ben's dead mother appear to ben when he was young? i dont' even think her body was ever on the island as far as we know?

we know a lot of the whispers are from dead people, that the whispers appear to be monitering what's going on like some remote survellience system (hmm, we've been told that smoky's in the security business, which often involves survellience...), that they refer to antennas or scopes, and that at times the whispers seem to show that some entity is controlling things like the polar bears and the weather. (check out thefuselage if you don't know what i'm talking about)

and didn't christian say that jacob was gone for a little while? what on earth does that mean?

we know the island has ties to ancient egypt, with all the hiroglyphics and temples and statues and that the egyptians were obsessed with eternal life. we know richard alpert appears to have something close to eternal life and that his initials are RA.

what does this all mean? I'm trying to find a big picture in all of this and i'm not able to see the outlines yet.

could smokey and/or jacob be some physical manifestation of an egyptian diety?

and i still want to know how adam and eve get to the past now that the island has stopped with the fooming. they're supposed to be fifty years old corpses, right? so that puts them dying in 1957 or so... did rose and bernard get stuck in the past somehow?
argh!!! so many questions!

#289. Posted by: myriad6 at March 25, 2009 12:09 AM

I think Claire is dead too. I think she died as a result of the blow to her head earlier in that episode.

#290. Posted by: undaunted at March 25, 2009 8:32 AM

@ 280 Scooby-Dude said "Maybe Ben's from My-hammy. Sorry, that was a bit hare-brained."

Spoken like a true "real" cartoon lover, and coming from Scooby-Dude, I'd say I was right!

@ 281 Alaïs_Longthought asked "which LOST character looks like Elmer Fudd?"

I'm going with Bernard! Especially when he was holding a gun. Except I can't really hear him saying "Kill da Wabbit, Kill da Wabbit, Kill da Waaaaabit." On second thought, perhaps John Locke would make a better Elmer. He is rather fuddy-duddy... And he likes to blow up stuff.

#291. Posted by: BunnyLover at March 25, 2009 10:34 AM

→ 271. Posted by: Mizzed

The fact they are living their lives in 1977 seems to violate everything we know about time travel in the Lost world, unless their bodies (like Faraday's assistant) are actually laying somewhere in the jungle in 2007, in an apparently coma-like state, while their minds live their life out in 1977.


They would then each have a constant- someone they know both in 1977 and 2007

I like the idea of present time being the lost group unconscious etc. but as you say they need a constant. I believe that the constant in one time has to actually contact the constant in another time. Desmond and Penny were truly their other's constant but he had to actually contact her. the phone call.

So I don't know what to think of that.

Maybe just the fact that the losties ARE jumping into a previous time and changing things is what is wrong. You cannot change the past. And they are. so maybe that's why the universe has them there. re correcting until nothing is changed and they can go back to the second before that and go on with their own time line?

This way, the rules won't be broken. TPTB be haven't lied. They just aren't showing us what has really happened?

As for losing posters. This is very confusing and aside from the people that come here often and keep up with what possibly could be happening, I don't think the blog is easy to jump into. My friends have all stopped watching. They are waiting for the DVD and will watch it all at once. They can't keep up and remember what was going on.

444444444444444444444444444444
→ 277. Posted by: Len
The bag that Little Ben gave Sayid contained a ham sandwich, which triggered Sayid to go all Jihad on the Dharma folks. Wait and see.....;)

A HAHAHA!

88888888888888888888888888888
→ 280. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

HAHAHAHHAHHAHA ba dum bumb!

151515151515151515151515151515

→ 281. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

HA HA HA HEEHEEHEEHEHEE Bing!
161616161616161616161616161616

→ 285. Posted by: PreacherOnun
“He walks among us but is not one of us”. That’s what is written but that’s not what it means, remember?

I forgot this. Hmmmmm

23232323232323232323232323

Enjoy the new episode!

#292. Posted by: berkyo at March 25, 2009 11:18 AM

#286 Pierre-Edgar-Marvin Chang-Halliwax-Candle is Jacob.

Someone mentioned the video sent 30 years to the future by Chang and Faraday, attempting somehow to avoid the purge.
Maybe, trying to do so, Chang time traveled ended up getting to close to himself destroying his body (or bodies), a la “matter – anti-matter” kind of thing, remaining in the Island only as a conscience being.

Hmmmm.....would that explain why Jacob said "help me" to Locke??

#293. Posted by: lostaddict98 at March 25, 2009 11:57 AM

@ 284 PreacherOnun posted "Everybody knows Sawyer whispers “I have a daughter in Albuquerque. Could you find her for me? Clementine.”

Well, I didn't know that.

I'm not saying Sawyer didn't say that..he probably did say something very much like that if not those exact words. If he did, why the big secret? Why tell only one person (Freckles)? Why not tell everybody and increase the odds of somebody surviving and getting to her?

Quite frankly, Kate's never seemed all that trustworthy (patricidal round-heeled arsonist felon).

I'd'a put my money on Hurley. That FB is one lucky sumbeech what with winning the lotto and all...plus he'd have the $ to help her out a bit.

IIWY?

#294. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 25, 2009 12:22 PM

The thought that the people in 1977 might actually be living in a coma like state in 2007 and that their minds only time travelled is an interesting idea. I think the photo Christian showed Sun and Frank would seem to discount that theory. Their bodies and minds would have to be in 1977 in order to have their picture taken.

#295. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 25, 2009 12:29 PM

@284 PreacherOnun posted "Everybody knows Sawyer whispers “I have a daughter in Albuquerque. Could you find her for me? Clementine.”

294 ransomjackson posted "Well, I didn't know that"

I have to say, neither did I. There's been plenty of speculation about what Sawyer said, and the general consensus is that he in fact did say something to that effect, but nobody I can recall has confirmed this for sure. Can PreacherOnun please provide a link to the proof of this?

#296. Posted by: LostedIt at March 25, 2009 12:49 PM

@294. Posted by: ransomjackson
“Well, I didn't know that.”

@296. Posted by: LostedIt
“Can PreacherOnun please provide a link to the proof of this?”

No. I can’t, sorry. I don’t have a link. I just happen to have good ears.
The only proof I have is what I’ve heard directly from Sawyer’s mouth, first time I watched that episode.
Of course, I re-watched and re-watched and re-watched again. And I’m sticking to it. You have to trust me on this one.

And, IMHO, it makes perfect sense that Sawyer, who was about to “sacrifice” himself, knowing that probably he wasn’t going to have another chance to get out of the damn Island, tells his secret only to his beloved Freckles. In a type of bonding-thing hoping to maintain their connection alive. I did it once… sniff… but I wasn’t about to jump from a helicopter. I was just about to get on an airplane.

#297. Posted by: PreacherOnun at March 25, 2009 2:08 PM

As has been posted several times above, I have to agree that Claire-bear is bleedin' demised, passed on, is no more, has ceased to be, expired and gone to meet her maker, is a stiff, bereft of life, rests in peace, pushing up daisies, metabolic processes are now history, off the twig, kicked the bucket, shuffled off her mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile. She is an ex-LOSTie.

So why would she be hanging around Christian? To learn the family ropes? Gee, isn't that what mouth-breather Jack did?

I would like to think that Adam and Eve are Charlie and Claire. Those two wacky kids should've had a better shot.

Rose and Bernard have to have more story. They were too worthy to be given the Nicki and Paolo treatment.

#298. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 25, 2009 3:00 PM

i think the runway was the runway that sawyer and kate were helping to build in the early episodes of season 3 while they were being held captive by the others. We know they were on the smaller island as was the ajira plane so i agree that the building of it has something to do with time travel as it was not used until 2007 but was built in 2004

#299. Posted by: mini SLDR at March 25, 2009 3:40 PM

JWTR (Jughead Was The Runway) !

davidrh...if I may...

arhgarhgahrghgarhgahgrhagrhgahrghagrh!!

#300. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 25, 2009 3:51 PM

@300: ransomjackson - I'll second that.

TGIW

#301. Posted by: LostedIt at March 25, 2009 3:53 PM

Speaking of which (TGIW):

Any Survivor fans out there?

The bad news: No Survivor tomorrow!

The good news: Survivor tonight!

The bad news: It's a clip show.

The good news: They promise at least some original content.

For LOST fans:

The Good news: No conflict with "Lost" - it's on at 8PM

The bad News: There's no conflict because the "Enhanced Versions" are apparently history - nothing scheduled tonight, nothing found on searching last week or this week on my digital cable guide.


I kinda liked the 'guided second look' the enhanced version gave us. If they weren't exactly canon, they still gave some measure of support to some theories.

Other news. I found theat my local ABC station was rerunning old Losts late night on Saturdays - not sure if this is the network, but I'd imagine so. Last Saturday night/Sunday morning, I just randomly hit on "Orientation" and wow, what a lot was packed into one episode:

First view of an Orientation film and all that implied about the Dharma initiative.

Desmond's story of how he came to tbe there.

The breaking of the hatch computer, and Desmond's paniced flight, only to return for the finale.

The first entry of the numbers.

The beginning of the Locke/Jack conflict.

Our first real introduction to the tailies, complete with Anna Lucia tossed into the tiger-cage with Sawyer, Michael, and Jin.

#302. Posted by: Cecil at March 25, 2009 5:20 PM

If you haven't already seen these spoof Dharma Magazine Ads, you'll enjoy looking them over while waiting for tonight's episode. Check them out here:

http://tinyurl.com/cqudu7

Namaste

#303. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at March 25, 2009 5:40 PM

Re: 222. Posted by: Amy

Thanks Amy! I was wondering what happened to the bulldog sweatshirt!

#304. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 25, 2009 7:47 PM

Tonight's episode....broadsided!

#305. Posted by: undaunted at March 25, 2009 10:19 PM

Is little Ben dead? Thinking he's not. Crazy ending, but I have a feeling it won't be what we think will happen. Slow episode otherwise. Very disappointed.

#306. Posted by: Lost is Found at March 25, 2009 10:23 PM

@282. Posted by: FenwayBen
re: Hugo awards

I guess the sure sign that I am a sci-fi geek is that I have actually seen all of the Hugo nominations!!

Loved them all, and for various different reasons! Been trying to rank them, or pick a winner, but so tough!

The Constant - lots of time travel mayhem, and nice Penny + Desmond

Doctor Horrible - loved this superhero musical parody, and thought the casting was A+ (with Kate's former husband playing Captain Hammer, and the classic line - The hammer is my penis)

BSG Revelations - a fantastic/legendary episode. Everyone finds out about the final 5, and you can feel Adama's heart break.

Doctor Who - "Turn Left" - Catherine Tate was simply amazing!

Doctor Who - "Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead" - pretty eerie and spooky stuff, written by the guy who will be the showrunner for s5 and the new Doctor.


For those that haven't, check out Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog: http://tinyurl.com/3ntv93

#307. Posted by: shikotee at March 25, 2009 10:23 PM

Lastly - a big thank you to those of you that couldn't keep it in your pants.

I haven't actually watched tonight's episode yet, as is the case for other people. But who cares about other people! You're excited, and you needs to show it!

Giddy-giddy!

#308. Posted by: shikotee at March 25, 2009 10:29 PM

Lost Is Found....although it doesn't bother me, some people frown upon discussing episodes from the future.

#309. Posted by: 74 at March 25, 2009 10:34 PM

shikotee, I apologize if my remark tipped something for you. I purposely kept it very vague except to express that I was surprised by something.

#310. Posted by: undaunted at March 25, 2009 10:36 PM

@310. Posted by: undaunted

Your comment was very cryptic, and did not really do anything.

"Lost is found" was the member flaunting his member in front of all...

Not only does he reveal things from the episode, but also braces me for disappointment. Thanks buddy!

#311. Posted by: shikotee at March 25, 2009 11:15 PM

this episode was really out there. Loved it!!!!
Sayid RULES!!!!

#312. Posted by: mapache at March 26, 2009 1:39 AM

The depiction of airplanes in "Lost" continues to be disturbingly slapdash.

First, the airplane appears to be a 737. This model cannot be used on an LA-to-Guam route. Why did the producers select it?

We will ignore the stall-inducing antics that preceded the landing. That's just TV.

But the forced landing really makes one wonder if this show has consultants. The use of flaps in an unpowered island landing is questionable. Putting the gear down for a landing on a runway made of dry sand is insane. The gear would have ripped off the plane in short order, and the plane would have cartwheeled and probably exploded. Further, with the runway obviously too short, leaving the gear up would shorten the landing distance considerably (increased friction). Any pilot would be trained to consider this instinctively.

No trained pilot would have landed wheels-down in that situation (never mind that lowering the gear with both engines out in a few seconds would not have been possible). Even for a professional helicopter jockey who somehow got a job as an airline captain (which in itself is difficult to accept).

#313. Posted by: Thoan at March 26, 2009 3:19 PM

Kate kicked Juliet's ass in "Left Behind". And dislocated her shoulder. Kate would wipe the floor with Juliet.

#314. Posted by: Paddle at March 28, 2009 8:53 PM