The Lost Blog

Key Points from "He's Our You"

Season 5, Episode 10
Episode Air Date: 03/25/09

Point 1
Sayid

Ben

Ilana
Apologies in advance if this review is a little wacky. My wife and I welcomed our second child a few days ago (everyone came through with flying colors), so I'm working my way through that weird happy-tired newborn trance.

If you'll excuse a forced segue ... Sayid is going through his own period of discombobulation because he's stuck in island-membership purgatory: he can't join Dharma because they think he's an Other; he can't join the Others because they've got a multi-decade waiting period (as Ben knows all too well). The best he can do is fool himself into thinking that all this time-travel-island-hoo-ha has deeper meaning, and if he can eradicate a future menace (adult Ben) by killing a non-menace (teen Ben), then he can justify his current predicament and find a measure of peace.

Sayid, unfortunately, is unaware of Daniel Faraday's Rules of Time. If those rules hold -- and I'm betting they do since Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse have harped on "no paradox" in interviews -- the semi-ghastly shooting of young Ben that concludes this episode will not erase Ben's dirty deeds from the future timeline. If anything, it'll expedite Ben's inevitable descent into bug-eyed megalomania.

In the near term, Sayid's attempted murder of young Ben serves as more of a character device than a plot catalyst. By shooting young Ben, we learn that Sayid is a natural born killer. He may not like it. He may not seek it out. But when push comes to shove and he's holding a gun, knife or naive chicken, he doesn't resist his reaper tendencies.

What I find most interesting -- and a little mind bending -- is that Ben understands Sayid far better than Sayid understands himself. Previously I chalked up Ben's post-island manipulation of Sayid to typical Ben puppet-mastery, but now it's possible (assuming Faraday is right and young Ben survives) that young Ben files Sayid's neuroses into his "Future Manipulatees" file and then expands on those neuroses when adult Ben meets torturer Sayid in the hatch's armory many years later.

The Ben-Sayid dynamic was the most intriguing part of this episode, but other notable Sayid-centric tidbits included:

  • Sayid's international assassination tour (sponsored by Ben Linus and Virginia Slims) ends in Moscow when Sayid successfully murders the last Widmorian on Ben's hit list. I find it interesting that Ben would intentionally end their arrangement because Sayid's skill set -- and his naive streak -- gave Ben the means to dispatch anyone he pleased by simply adding names to his list (he's like Joe McCarthy with a hit man). So why did Ben end the bloodbath? And, more broadly, what did all those executions really accomplish?
  • This wasn't directly addressed in this episode, but Ben's motivation in the post-Locke-murder period continues to raise questions. I'm assuming that pre-murder, Ben believed he could not return to the island (that assumption could be really, really wrong), but once Locke mentioned Eloise Hawking, Ben shifted his perspective into return-at-all-costs mode. But here's where things get fuzzy: What was Ben's previous relationship to Eloise Hawking? How did he find her in Los Angeles? How did he convince Eloise to reveal the "rules of return" (i.e. -- the Oceanic Six need to stage their mid-air reunion)?

    I've posed similar questions in recent weeks, but they continue to pop up because we still don't know Ben's full role in reassembling the Oceanic Six. For example, this episode features a post-breakup scene between Ben and Sayid in which Ben says Locke was murdered (likely by Widmore) and now the same people are hunting Hurley. We know Ben is weaving a big honkin' lie, but what's his end game in this exchange? Is it just to get Sayid to reunite with the Oceanic Six and return to the island (a return that serves Ben's needs as well), or is there something more here? I'm not sure what that "more" could be, but Ben is typically three or four moves ahead of everyone else. I wouldn't be surprised if adult Ben needs Sayid to shoot young Ben in 1977 so future Ben can reclaim the island throne 30 years later.

  • We learn that Ilana, one of the new characters from Ajira 316, is not a cop or air marshal. She's a bounty hunter hired by the family of one of Sayid's victims (the dude he offed on the golf course) to trap Sayid and bring him to Guam for ... something. Ilana uses a deft combination of seduction and stiletto boots to snare Sayid. Upon boarding Ajira 316 -- and seeing business class overrun with Oceanic survivors -- Sayid asks Ilana if her real employer is Ben Linus. She feigns ignorance, which is probably legitimate since Ben's role in all this is likely looped in, over and around itself to the point where the trail is impossible to pick up. Either that or the island somehow manipulated events to get Ilana and Sayid on Ajira 316.
  • Sayid's on-island truth serum scene didn't work for me because: 1. the serum administrator was Larry from "Newhart," and 2. I don't believe hard-core Dharma members, like Horace Goodspeed, would immediately dismiss a "visitor" from the future. Dharma in 1977 may not have tapped the island's time-traveling properties, but time tweaking had to be on the DeGroots' wish list.
  • So after escaping from Dharma jail and shooting young Ben, Sayid runs into the jungle. But where's he going? Will he finally fulfill his season-one goal of mapping the island (an expedition cut short by Crazy Danielle Rousseau and her "bed of electricity")? Will he find Rose, Bernard and the other survivors? Will Smokey send dead Nadia to his side so he can live out his days foraging for mangos with his beloved?
Point 2
Sawyer

Kate

Jack
Jack, Kate and Hurley are settling into their new lives as Dharma drones: Kate is working with Juliet in the motor pool, setting the stage for lots of awkward pausing during oil changes; Hurley is a cook, blowing Dharma minds with the modern flavors of Mr. Cluck's Chicken Shack; and Jack is ... really passive. He's resigned to living in 1977 and letting Sawyer call the shots, for now at least.

Sawyer's long con is starting to crumble, so it's going to be interesting to see to what lengths he'll go to hang on to his Dharma dream. This is a guy who never really wanted to leave the island, and now that he's experienced three years of relative bliss, his allegiance to the Oceanic crew could be in doubt (unless Kate finds another stockpile of one-size-too-small tank tops).

Point 3
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "Three years no burning buses; ya'll are back for one day!" - Sawyer to his Oceanic cohorts.
  • Second Best Line: "Even a new mom wants you dead." - Sawyer, explaining Amy's bloodlust to Sayid.
  • Sayid drowns his sorrows in $120 glasses of MacCutcheon. That Oceanic payout must have been huge.

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"Whatever Happened, Happened" -- Blerg ... Kate episode. Freckles goes to great lengths to save a future foe. Airs Wednesday, April 1, 2009 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

Mac, ya da man.
Up before I start watching!!

#1. Posted by: mtncbn at March 25, 2009 11:57 PM

ILBLxx is second!!! yayyy. I'm going to try to keep up this time.

#2. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 12:00 AM

Mac -- Congratulations on the new addition to you family!!!

#3. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 12:02 AM

Congrats on the new addition mac! :)

Only thought I have about the episode so far is that young Ben can't be dead. The island won't let him die until it is through with him.

#4. Posted by: surefoot at March 26, 2009 12:04 AM

Ilana may be a cop, not a bounty hunter - just doing some pro-bono work. He asked about the bounty-hunter thing. She never replied specifically. Sayid really needs a bedtime checklist (metal detector) when he jumps in the sack with the ladies. Last one we saw (Elsa) popped cap after he killed Avelino. My bet is that Elsa in Berlin, and Ilana in L.A. - wear the same bracelet.

#5. Posted by: DocH at March 26, 2009 12:06 AM

1. Sayid knows about the purge.
2. I agree that Ben's still alive. Somehow he survived a shot to the heart (unless I'm an idiot and don't know where the heart is)... "Whatever happened, happened". Maybe that's why he loves the island so much? It "healed" him? Then the island didn't want him anymore so gave him the tumor.
3. So why did Ethan survive the purge?
4. When Sayid shot Ben I was like, NOOOO!!! It actually kinda seemed like he was feeling bad for the kid because of Roger and everything.
5. This might be a really stupid question but, we KNOW that Rose, Bernard and the other 815ers WERE time traveling with Sawyer, Faraday, Miles, Jules, and Jin right? Don't you think that Sawyer and the gang would be curious what happened to them?

#6. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 12:15 AM

It's funny how Kate couldn't put the pieces together about Sawyer and Juliet's relationship... and Hurley could.

#7. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 12:20 AM

So Ben learned to SEE from an early age instead of merely looking.

The book young Ben gives to Sayid while imprisoned is A Separate Reality written by Carlos Castaneda. Here is a brief excerpt…

“In other words, a man of knowledge has no honor, no dignity, no family, no name, no country, but only life to be lived, and under these circumstances his only tie to his fellow men is his controlled folly. Thus a man of knowledge endeavors, and sweats, and puffs, and if one looks at him he is just like any ordinary man, except that the folly of his life is under control. Nothing being more important than anything else, a man of knowledge chooses any act, and acts it out as if it matters to him. His controlled folly makes him say that what he does matters and makes him act as if it did, and yet he knows that it doesn't; so when he fulfills his acts he retreats in peace, and whether his acts were good or bad, or worked or didn't, is in no way part of his concern.”

#8. Posted by: Debunker at March 26, 2009 12:20 AM

Congrads Mac! Smoke em if you got em!

I did not get a chance to watch this episode when it started, so I opted to catch up on the postings from the previous episode. Wow - When I don't put in my over large quota of comments, those totals just drop! But seriously - I think the nicer weather equals less people in front of their comps - I know that's my excuse!

Just as I was confirming that my post on the Hugo awards went through, I caught a glimpse of what "Lost is Found" posted:

"Is little Ben dead? Thinking he's not. Crazy ending, but I have a feeling it won't be what we think will happen. Slow episode otherwise. Very disappointed."

And once again, from the bottom of my heart, I thank you dearly for spoiling my viewing pleasure!

Mac - Is there any way that you could remind people at the end of each recap NOT TO DISCUSS future episodes within the comments of a previous episode? I've noticed a few bloggers that do it every time, for obvious reasons.

It wasn't all that great of an episode, but I would have preferred not knowing this in advance.

I wonder if Radzinsky will put together that Sayid mentioned plane crashes, and the incident where Jin stormed the flame inquiring about a plane crash?

#9. Posted by: shikotee at March 26, 2009 12:22 AM

Congratulations on the new baby Mac! Thanks for taking the time to post your review. I know your time must be precious to you right now.

I loved this episode! It felt a lot like the "old" Lost episodes, centering on one character with flashbacks...

If Ben survives the gunshot, it will certainly explain why he is the way he is (at least to some degree). Abused by his father and nearly murdered by the one person he trusted to get him out of the situation, I think the writers are telling us that Ben does the things he does to benefit himself and no one else (regardless of what he says).

Of course it would be interesting to see what would happen to the story and timeline if he actually dies.

Either way it was kind of hard for me to watch a young kid get shot (even a young Ben) but that's just the mom in me I guess.

One question: So who was burning the buses 3 years ago?

#10. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at March 26, 2009 12:25 AM

Congrats Mac! Brilliant news!

Ben's shooting was very shocking to me. I thought that Sayid was ready to take his punishment from the Dharma crew when he told Sawyer that he wasn't going anywhere. Young Ben's appearance to bust him out of jail presented Sayid with a different path. Assuming that "the rules" can be broken, there are several possible consequences to Sayid shooting Ben:

Ben survives the shooting but is now afraid of the hostiles.

Ben is dead and EVERYTHING changes.

Ben's shooting starts the war Widmore told John Locke about.

Ben's shooting changes nothing.

I'm sure there are other scenarios but I think it would be cool if the shooting changed the timeline in some way. I'm thinking more and more that the scene in "Namaste" where we see the abandoned Dharma rec room (as opposed to the New Otherton rec room which had no Dharma signs anywhere) will be a very important clue that the timeline is shifted somehow.

On another note, I thought that Sayid should have told Ilana to keep those boots on! At least he could have gotten captured with a smile on his face!

#11. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at March 26, 2009 12:25 AM

Young Ben getting zapped? You think that’s confusing?

Think about poor Jin. Here’s a guy obviously totally out of the loop. He apparently rides around all day long - Has no idea about all the hooplaw over Sayid - Gets waylaid by his old friend on a dark road - and will wake up to discover that Hurley knows more about Life on Mars Island than he does after being there for only 2 days! . .

He hasn’t got a ice cube’s chance in hell of finding Sun at this rate.

The season will end and he’ll discover that Sun has married Frank and is running a bed and breakfast out of the old Dhrama Reception station . . . The Namaste Inn. She’s wearing wonderful tight sweaters year round, has Tom Poston as a handyman, and Larry, Darrell and Darell live in a teepee outside the gate.

Why does the ghost of the Bob Newhart Show keep popping up on Lost anyway!?!

#12. Posted by: davidrh at March 26, 2009 12:26 AM

ilovebenjaminlinusxx (#6)

Re: 2. I didn't even consider the island healing Ben, but I guess that makes sense. He has to still do everything that he 'will have done did' in the future. I can't imagine Sayid will have failed to kill him, but I can see the island playing the trump card.

Re: 5. Yeah, where the heck are all Rose & Bernard and all the other 815-ers? I've been wondering that for a while now. I had a passing thought that we might eventually find out they re-settled the island as 'other Others' and R&B turn out to be the 'Adam & Eve' from Season 1. Maybe Jack was just a decade or two off when he estimated how long those bodies had been there.

#13. Posted by: MadamIm at March 26, 2009 12:29 AM

One more observation....

It seems clear that the DeGroots are not on the island. When they have the team Dharma meeting, Manager Horace does not like the idea of a call going out to Ann Arbour, Michigan, which is home to the University of Michigan, where the Degroots did their doctoral work. I guess they stuck around after founding Dharma?

#14. Posted by: shikotee at March 26, 2009 12:30 AM

Two other things...

1. Mac, congrats on the new kiddo!

2. I don't think this was a boring or disappointing episode at all! It really helped me understand the new dynamics that the writers are trying to establish with the characters, and I totally LOVE any time we find out more about Sayid's backstory. They really haven't told us a lot about how he became the person he did, and this ep helped me understand his character more, which is surprising in the 5th Season. I though the scene with him tied to the tree and subjected to the truth serum was some of the best acting he's been able to do on this show.

#15. Posted by: MadamIm at March 26, 2009 12:35 AM

Alex (Not Rousseau) [11]

Yes, the ruins of Dharmaville that Sun and Frank found in 'Namaste' *definitely* looked to me like they were different than those of the Otherton, not least of which because there were still Dharma pictures and signs hanging up. I'm coming to believe that there is going to be something that happens now with the timeline changing. I tend to trust the science that 'Darlton' and their minions have established throughout the show though, so I'm wondering how they're going to be able to reconcile that.

#16. Posted by: MadamIm at March 26, 2009 12:42 AM

Congrads on the new kiddo Mac!
Thanks for making Lost make sense.
You guys always have such great insite!

It seems like one show has a major revelation, and then the next prepares you for the next plot sequence.

No way they are taking Ben out of the story. The island will heal him like it did Locke.


#17. Posted by: Offmymark at March 26, 2009 12:54 AM

Sayid is the man!
He is really a bad-ass.
Loved the episode, loved the review. Thanks Mac!

#18. Posted by: mapache at March 26, 2009 1:42 AM

weakest episode of a so far pretty great season.

#19. Posted by: kd at March 26, 2009 1:49 AM

mac, congrats on #2!
larry seriously was throwing me off too ha ha.

#20. Posted by: laura at March 26, 2009 1:52 AM

Conga-rats, Mac!

→ 8. Posted by: Debunker
That Castaneda quote really does seem to explain how Ben became the Bug-Eyed Maniac. And look at how good Little Ben was at lying even back in the 70's!

Mac, LMAO at "Jack is...really passive."

Loved Sayid's scary drugged-up laugh during the interrogation!

I'm thinking Little Ben started the Dharma Van fires three years ago when he wanted to meet Richard "Guyliner" Alpert. The Lost transportation department must be having a heck of a time supplying said vans.

#21. Posted by: freckles at March 26, 2009 2:13 AM

I'm feeling very much led astray by this whole current plot involving "Dharma Place" and the murderous votes that are cast there. It's interesting I guess, but it seems like this whole section of episodes is just treading water while we wait for main events to start going again. It's getting needlessly complex. On the plus side, Sayid capping Little Ben should have some ripple effects. Those explanations will be fun!

#22. Posted by: The Duf at March 26, 2009 2:57 AM

"Freckles goes to great lengths to save a future foe."

Is it me, or does this make it sound like Kate's going to save young Ben?

That would conveniently fix the timeline, since Sayid was there to shoot him, but Kate (and presumably Jack or Juliet, since he'll need a doctor) was there to save him. Assuming he has no lasting physical effects, the two cancel each other out...

#23. Posted by: Michael M at March 26, 2009 4:31 AM

Wow, Sayid was really rockin the leather - HOT! Gotta love those bad boys.

#24. Posted by: Monica at March 26, 2009 6:02 AM

Michael M in Post 23 responds to:
"Freckles goes to great lengths to save a future foe."

I assumed that particular sentence referred to Kate and Juliet's relationship (to each other). She's trying hard not to start any kind of a female cat-fight that might end up with a full brawl in a mud hole.


Darn it.

#25. Posted by: davidrh at March 26, 2009 7:20 AM

Nevermind about my last comments in Post 25. I didn't realize Michael M was referring to the blurb about NEXT WEEKS episode.

Talk about "future-talk"! We're only at 25 posts and already we guessing about the next week. I'm impressed . .

Right now, I'm just concerned about breakfast.

#26. Posted by: davidrh at March 26, 2009 7:25 AM

Well, here's what might happen.........

sayid uses his "Nija" tactics on poor old Jin, shoots Lil Ben, and hauls booty to the woods. Jin wakes up, takes Lil Ben back to there camp, Jack and Julliet save his life, but can't repair a possible spinal injury, due to poor facilities.........possible?????

#27. Posted by: Payshunz at March 26, 2009 7:32 AM

Ben is not dead. Jack will probably save him and that is why he needed to bring everyone back. Things happen for a reason and the reason for their return was to make events happen in the past to bring the future into place. Ben knows this as he is the master manipulator!

#28. Posted by: maryann at March 26, 2009 7:46 AM

Great review Mac and congrats on the new addition to the family.

The new addition's name is not Ethan, is it?

In Point 1, bullet # 2, you asked "How did he find her [Eloise] in Los Angeles?"

I have always assumed here that there were two options.

1. He already had knowledge of Eloise and knew where to find her. I assume she is the "guard" of sorts for the Lamppost station.

2. When he killed Locke, he checked his pockets and found the card that Widmore gave him (the one with Eloise's contact info).

#29. Posted by: Paulo at March 26, 2009 8:01 AM

Congratulations on the birth of your second child Mac! And thank you for taking the time to write the review.

Talk about foreshadowing! Ben gave Sayid, A Separate Reality by Carlos Castenada (which I read in the 60s), and I laughed & thought, “not frooming, but shrooming.” Then Sayid took a little trip.

Ben spoke of his father in the past tense, “I hated him.” I’m thinking Roger Workman’s incinerated remains will be found in that truck.

Completely broadsided by Sayid shooting Ben. I thought for sure Sayid thought his “purpose” was to remove Ben from Dharma at a young age to prevent the genocide, which I guess is precisely what he did… lol…..but I thought he would just deliver Ben to The Hostiles.
Of course, with a little time to consider that option I realize it would have brought about a full on war if a Hostile kidnapped a Dharma child.

I'm still not convinced that events cannot be changed because it appears the time looping is meant to change events.

And there is the matter of the numbers being heard on the radio when Frank was landing the Ajira flight. It seems something changed. We didn't hear Danielle's distress call, we heard the message that preceded her distress call. I suppose it might have been a freaky rogue radio signal that got lost in the ethos and looped back to be heard on the radio in 2007. The numbers on the radio might be a red herring.

I don't know how Ben can survive that gunshot to the heart. He'd bleed out before he got help. This might be the fan fav who dies. The cool thing about time tripping is that we can still see Ben from time to time (so to speak). I wonder if Ben will die in the infirmary on Alcatraz now...or disappear.

#30. Posted by: undaunted at March 26, 2009 8:24 AM

Con-GRAA-tulations, Mac on your new arrival, and thanks for the review. Loved this observation of Sayid: "[W]hen push comes to shove and he's holding a gun, knife or naive chicken, he doesn't resist his reaper tendencies."

Whenever someone is shot in the body (as in Keamy) rather than the head (as in Rousseau's late husband) I guess we can assume they're not dead. I would love to see how things would be if young Ben were removed from the picture. But his survival is all up to the island. More later, but like the posts so far!

#31. Posted by: Glostover at March 26, 2009 8:25 AM

I agree the folks who think this was one of the weaker episodes so far.
I was fast forwarding the DVR past commercials and saw I was already 50 minutes into the episode. I found myself really disappointed, thinking that nothing substantial had really happened or had been learned.
Then Sayid shot Ben, which even that was anticlimactic. It was pretty obvious from last weeks preview that sayid would at least attempt to kill Ben.
I am looking forward to next week as we should finally get the answer to whether Faraday is right about the rules. If little Ben is still alive that would seem to indicate that things indeed can not change.
I would love to see a curve ball and have him actually die. That would be much more surprising to me, but I doubt its gonna happen.
I wish they would just get around to the Des/Penny thing already...
I don't know. This season started off so strong but the farther they go into this time travel stuff...
I was worried it would start getting this way and turn into a Terminator style mess of a time travel story.
Don't get me wrong--love Lost still (as well as the Terminator) but I'm getting more and more concerned about their ability to wrap this thing up in a satisfying way with all of the paradoxes and questions their raising.

That said I did enjoy seeing William Sanderson. Although I was disappointed in that scene as well. They hype it up as "he's our you" like he's gonna lay some mad sicko torture on Sayid then all he does is give him some lame-o truth serum? I would have rather seen Darrell and Darrell (any relation to Darrell Ann davidrh?)pop out of the tent and get medieval on Sayid.

It was nice to see a return to the traditional flashbacks but the chicken scene was not all that enlightening except to show Sayid having a father similar to Ben's. The rest of the flachbacks were scenes we've seen several times over from other perspectives. We'd already been able to glean from past episodes most of the information that was supposedly new here such as how/why Sayid got on the plane. Do we really need to see every Lost character go talk to Sayid at the Habitat for Humanity project? Do we really need to see the Oceanic Six gathering at the docks for the first time again? Maybe that's why the episode felt so blah and went by so fast. so much of it felt recycled from earlier episodes without much new enlightenment to justify the repeated scenes.

#32. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 26, 2009 8:32 AM

Next Ep - My guess is that Kate makes Jack help save Ben's life because Ben is the only person who is threatening to take Aaron away from Kate, or something like that. I'm sure they will explain why Kate is back in the next ep, just like they explained why Sayid is back this ep. And so on...

#33. Posted by: Suliet at March 26, 2009 8:36 AM

No way is Ben dead! Course correction... You can't change the future.

#34. Posted by: BEMH at March 26, 2009 8:39 AM

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but people keep saying that the Dharma recruiting station that we see down near the docks was run down and this makes people believe that the timeline has changed.

In what episode in the past have we actually seen this building? I know we have seen the docks and the sub before, but I don't remember seeing that building before.

#35. Posted by: Paulo at March 26, 2009 8:50 AM

I'm about to read Mac's review and all of the comments. I just wanted to first say I was incredibly disappointed with the turn of events last night. I'm sure a log of people are going to be shocked - SHOCKED! - at what happened but I was sitting there thinking one thing: Either they've changed the entire basis by which we've understood things to date or this is just another tease like the time Locke got shot by Ben and left for dead in the "death pit". Either way, I'm not going to happy with the end result when we find out which one it is. Ok, I'm off to read...

#36. Posted by: LostedIt at March 26, 2009 8:53 AM

Congratulations on the new baby, Mac! And you still find time to put out a review, you are the man!

Best line: "Little Ben Linus just brought me a chicken salad sandwich. How do you think I'm doing?" Sayid to Sawyer.

How very Dharma/hippie-like that their truth serum is a "long, strange trip."
Too funny. I wonder if the Dharma acid is delivered in the air drops or if it is manufactured on island. Is Timothy Leary on the island conducting experiments? Maybe he's an Other?

@ 30 undaunted

Ben spoke of his father in the past tense, “I hated him.” I’m thinking Roger Workman’s incinerated remains will be found in that truck.

I caught the use of the past tense too and thought it wierd. That would be a good explanation, I hadn't thought of that. That would be something else that needs a course correction. I think that Ben is going to spiral into his evil ways sooner rather that later.

#37. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 26, 2009 8:59 AM

Congrats on the wee babby Mac...now you and your wife are officially out-numbered...as if you weren't already...yeah yeah...I know...only two kids...but you're practically out-numbered after one. Any parent knows that.

Weak ep overall I thought...lot of rehash, not much new insight. Sayid choking a chicken...what teenage boy hasn't done that? Loved Larry (William Sanderson from Newhart). His accommodations reminded me of the old joke: Guy goes to his shrink, says Doc, it's really weird. Sometimes I feel like a teepee, and sometimes I feel like a wigwam. The doctor replies, Ah, I see your problem. You're too tense.

I thought it was pretty obvious that the flaming van (a la Schwarzenegger in Predator) was Ben's distraction so he could bust out Sayid.

And somehow it'll turn out that Ben's missing a kidney orsomething and the bullet went right through him leaving a cute puckish chick-magnet scar.

My question is where does Sayid go from here? Hide out in the jungle a la Danielle and start nicking the ears of the goats that don't kick (like Rob Crusoe)? Join the Hostiles?

Maybe it's just me but Kate is really starting to bore the hell out of me. Not really lookig forward to next week's ep.

#38. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 26, 2009 9:04 AM

Just wanted to say congratulations, Mac, before reading through everything. You're going to be one tired daddy!

#39. Posted by: Christina at March 26, 2009 9:05 AM

Congratulations, Mac!

#40. Posted by: hurling at March 26, 2009 9:05 AM

Just had a thought. Wouldn't it be awesome if big Walt appears to little Ben as he did with Locke? "Get up Ben. You have work to do." That would be how Ben knows he's special.

Or Christian/Jacob/Locke (chose your preferred ghost"ish" entity) could appear on the road to put the idea in Ben's head that he is special and destined to lead the Others. Then RA appears out of the jungle, torch in hand, to lead Ben away. I like that idea too.

#41. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 26, 2009 9:06 AM

Mac, con-fergin-gratulations on the new addition! I've got three of my own. I'm sure you know by now that sleep is a thing of the past. Might as well use the time beneficially and finish them Lost reviews even earlier, eh?

@ 30 undaunted said "Ben spoke of his father in the past tense, “I hated him.” I’m thinking Roger Workman’s incinerated remains will be found in that truck."

@37: lost2theworld agreed: "I caught the use of the past tense too and thought it weird."

That was the big standout that I caught as well and wanted to comment about. Perhaps the arrival of the Losties changed history more than we've been led to believe and Ben has actually already killed his father rather than wait for the purge as he did the first loop-around.

Ok, this is what I immediately thought of last night after I watched the episode: Here's how I see things playing out because I obviously don't think Ben is dead at this point: Jin brings Ben back to Dharmaville and Juliet is forced, along with perhaps Jack, to come to grips with the fact that they are about to save the one person that is the cause of so much of the agony they've all been through. As doctors they're going to save him nonetheless and Ben becomes permanently altered for life due to the experience. It didn't take me more than a minute after the episode ended to realize this is how things likely will play out and left me feeling quite annoyed at being able to so easily see the obvious sleight of hand being played at us. Where's the mystery here? Where's the suspense, the WTF moment where we get to talk about it for hours, days on end until the next episode comes around? It's all so obvious that either I'm completely wrong and that's the trick or TPTB's subtlety is slipping terribly.

Ok, did anyone else catch that Sawyer wasn't running to Kate's apartment to talk to Kate but rather to go find Jack admit that he needs help regarding Sayid? Am I completely mistaken? My impression was that when Kate answered the door he was surprised it was Kate - he was expecting Jack to answer the door and he was going to, tail between his legs, admit that he was in over his head. Anyone else?

Where the heck is Farraday? Not a word about him.

Loved Sawyer's line about three years with not a burning bus in sight and the other Losties show up for one day...

I agree that what someone said about what Sayid said about coming from the future and flying in the plane - they (the non-Lostie Dharma people) cannot possibly all be that dense. Someone's got to be putting some pieces together by now, as suspicious as they all are about everyone and everything.

Ok, gotta actually get some work done...

#42. Posted by: LostedIt at March 26, 2009 9:23 AM

I really liked yesterday's episode...

I think we are getting so many large reveals this season that a lot of this episode had more subtle reveals or things that will be imperative later on..

I think seeing Sayid's father was supposed to make the viewer think that Sayid would sympathize with Ben and therefore deliver him to the Hostiles and not shoot him..

Ben's lying about a Whidmore employee killing John was so good! Is there any situation Ben can't spin for his own good..

I have been annoyed by Kate in the last two episodes.. Come on now, Kate can't figure out that Juliet and Sawyer are together? Is she blind??

I don't know about anyone else, but I could sure use an $120 glass of scotch right now...


#43. Posted by: christine_should_be_working at March 26, 2009 9:30 AM

Congrats Mac!

Total long shot, but any chance that young Ben's gunshot wound will 'materialize' in older Ben but he will be ok because the gunshot wound went through the tumor Jack removed from his spine......alla-Locke's-kidney-luckyness???

#44. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 26, 2009 9:35 AM

@ # 44 - Total long shot, but any chance that young Ben's gunshot wound will 'materialize' in older Ben but he will be ok because the gunshot wound went through the tumor Jack removed from his spine......alla-Locke's-kidney-luckyness???

The tumor was in the lower part of his back. No way this could happen, but interesting idea.

#45. Posted by: Paulo at March 26, 2009 9:42 AM

Congrats, Mac! Agree with those who thought the epi was only so-so, but did like the title, "He’s Our You."

All the time travel rules/theories are too complicated for my cartoonish canine mind, but before Sayid went Blam Blam and muttered "That's for the damn ham sandwich!" and before Ben's soul ascends to the frozen donkey wheel in the sky, I, too, heard the past tense "I hated him." But that was immediately after Sayid said, "My father was a hard man as well." Could Ben have been referring to SAYID’s father??

#46. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 26, 2009 9:43 AM

congrats to mac and his wife one baby #2, if you think you were tired before...just wait. :)

i am with the group that doesnt think that ben is dead and that the island will heal him but anything is possible on lost.

i liked this episode, probably more so than others because we got to see a lot of sayid, who by the way was looking extra extra yummy with his blow out and black leather(yeah baby!!!!). for a man who claims to know when he's being lied to he sure is slipping....maybe it was the scotch. it will be interesting to see how things play out for sayid after his assasination of young ben.

i think amy knows alot more than she's letting on, she seemed a little to eager to have sayid killed and something just seems off about her, i cant put my finger on it but something just isnt right...

have a good day all!!

#47. Posted by: tiffani at March 26, 2009 9:43 AM

R...N...M...

OR...is Middle-aged Ben's tumor caused by a bullet fragment they were unable to remove from young Ben's belly-gut...??

#48. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 26, 2009 9:45 AM

I agree, Tiffani, that there is more to Amy, after all, she does end up with the Others in New Otherton.

#49. Posted by: Christina at March 26, 2009 9:46 AM

Best Line:

Sawyer: "You try living through three years in the seventies."

#50. Posted by: skybox at March 26, 2009 9:50 AM

Mac, good points, thanks for posting so early -- and congratulations on baby #2.

As for last night's episode ... I have to admit that I have never been a fan of Sayid-centric shows. Frankly, last night's show, for me, was all about that last scene.

Gotta admit: I saw it coming. The writers have totally set up all season that Sayid was gonna whoop some Ben butt. It's so smart of them to have him do it in 1977 by shooting him.

At first my mind spun and I wondered how Dead-Ben would effect the future? Would it be like BACK TO THE FUTURE? Would Ben start fading from the scene while playing his guitar?

Then I took a breath and this is what I think is going to happen:

Ben's being shot totally mimics other events from past seasons. I think it's no mistake that Jack is back in Dharmaville and could operate on Ben. Also, I have to agree about course correction. You can't kill Ben -- he already exists. So I think the next few episodes will be about Jack saving Ben in 1977. Maybe that's why Ben was so convincing in the Dominican Republic, trying to get Sayid on that plane? Sayid HAD to go back on 316 and SHOOT him!!

As for "Daryl" from NEWHART ... LOL. I took him a little more seriously, because I think of him as Sebastian from BLADE RUNNER -- a totally different [i.e. serious] role for him, and a classic Sci-Fi film!

I also think the writers are handling the 1977 scenes tastefully. Dude, they could really get outta hand if they went too far left or right with them. (i.e. dis-suspending our belief!)

#51. Posted by: DCMatt at March 26, 2009 9:52 AM

Congratulations, Mac! Babies are the best, ain't they? :-)

I was positive that I heard Little Ben saying "I hated him", but I'm reading elsewhere that the closed-captioning had him saying "I hate it here." Either way, this kid is nailing Ben's character. I felt terrible about Roger's treatment of him, and Sayid looked for a minute as though he wouldn't have minded taking a swing at him.

Speaking of Sayid; "Tune in, turn on, drop out." Hee! I loved Larry's laid back attitude about the whole torture sequence. "We're just gonna give you this little sugar cube, m'kay?"

#52. Posted by: Tinkerbean at March 26, 2009 9:53 AM

Scenario ala Lil' Ben: He wakes up (after Sayid shot him) reaches into is jacket and pulls out the wooden doll that Annie gave him. The doll took the direct hit of the bullet!!!!

Maybe the foe Kate needs to save in the next episode is the injured Ben--maybe he is the one who has taken Aaron in the future and placed him safely and she knows that if he dies then Aaron isn't safe anymore. Then again if he dies she never crash lands on the island to begin with--too confusing.

Also, maybe when Locke comes upon the injured Ben in the hydra station the injury isn't necessarily due to Sun's smack on the head but maybe his future self is flickering near death b/c young self just got shot.

He will be saved. This whole argument about predestination is interesting. Time can repeat itself and course correct. You always need to get to the final destination--but it doesn't matter how you get there (i.e. train, plane, bus, wormhole whatever) soo...in my mind this means that things can be altered in the past (i.e. changes in Otherton, Ben's injury, when the purge takes place if it even takes place) as long as you arrive at the final destination. The question is what events MUST take place as opposed to what can change without impacting the final outcome.

#53. Posted by: benlinusrocks at March 26, 2009 9:57 AM

Mac: Ben is typically three or four moves ahead of everyone else. I wouldn't be surprised if adult Ben needs Sayid to shoot young Ben in 1977 so future Ben can reclaim the island throne 30 years later.

I haven't gone any farther than this - and it's brilliant!!!

Congrats on the new addition to your family!!!

#54. Posted by: dk at March 26, 2009 9:58 AM

@ monica & tiffani

Wow, Sayid was really rockin the leather - HOT! Gotta love those bad boys.

sayid, who by the way was looking extra extra yummy with his blow out and black leather(yeah baby!!!!).

agreed, agreed, agreed...nice!

@ 47...tiffani

i think amy knows alot more than she's letting on

I'm really starting to believe that Amy is in cahoots with the Others, which may have been proposed in an earlier thread. (They're all so long & involved I can't remember.) Regardless, either she's an Other spy or her dead ex was and she's taken over. That could explain Ethan's Otherness.

#55. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 26, 2009 9:59 AM

Mac's comments helped me gel around something that now seems obvious.

Assuming Teen Ben lives (how can he not?!?!).......he will have had the opportunity to get to know Sawyer, Juliette, Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid and Jin very well.

Well enough, in fact, to be able to manipulate them with exact precision "thirty-or-so years from now" as he will have changed greatly- but they will still be essentially the same people when he first encounters them.

#56. Posted by: skybox at March 26, 2009 9:59 AM

I was very pleased with this episode.

@ Alex (Not Rousseau) - 11
"I'm thinking more and more that the scene in "Namaste" where we see the abandoned Dharma rec room (as opposed to the New Otherton rec room which had no Dharma signs anywhere) will be a very important clue that the timeline is shifted somehow."

I thought about that... But then I thought, what If the writer's are trying to confuse us? What if it's not the same room at all? What if they are simply TWO rooms that look the same? One of them being the orientation/processing room and the other being the new otherton rec room?
_______

@ Michael M - 23
"Is it me, or does this make it sound like Kate's going to save young Ben?"

I don't know... seems like Jack has developed love for future Ben. He'll probably contemplate "NEEDING" him, and therefore save him.
_______

So lets say that Ben survives, and 'Whatever happened, happened'. Why didn't it seem like he recognized anyone? Why was he so surprised to see a spinal surgeon fall out of the sky? Why did future Ben want Sayid to go back to the island if he knew what he was going to do to him?

Let's remember... Ben knows Sawyer/Lafleur, and Sawyer knows Ben. We can only assume that Ben also knows all the other "from the future" people in Dharmaville personally. I think Sawyer is a memorable person.

If you think about it, Sawyer has matured a lot since the time he was in the cage on the hydra island. Actually, I think that's when he first showed that he cares more about others than himself. [When Ben said they injected him with that heart stuff and if his heart beat goes over 130something he'll die]. I forget the specifics.

#57. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 10:04 AM

ransomjackson - you are wise...just goes to show that children shouldn't play with lead-based toys...yuk-yuk-yuk! Oh that was horrible...sorry.

#58. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 26, 2009 10:08 AM

Also I did want to say, that although I haven't been on here as much (new job/getting married/planning said marriage), I still take time to read the recaps and a few comments. It's good to see that the comments still consist of many smart thoughts....then every 7th or 8th post is some chicka cooing about one of the dudes on the show...brilliant!

'I love leather'
'His hair is so long and flowing'
'Bug eyes turn me on'
'He handles a gun VERY well'
'I have the same tummy problems as Paulo'

#59. Posted by: R at March 26, 2009 10:13 AM

that R was me by the way....typo....gots to have my funny credits!

RNMiL!!

#60. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 26, 2009 10:14 AM

@ 52 Tinkerbean: I was positive that I heard Little Ben saying "I hated him", but I'm reading elsewhere that the closed-captioning had him saying "I hate it here."

Tink, I clearly heard him say "I hate it here" as well. I think lil' Ben did send the burning Dharma-bus greeting card as a distraction, but I don't think daddy is necessarily in it. But then I was wrong about the sandwich in the bag, too, so ....

#61. Posted by: Glostover at March 26, 2009 10:15 AM

Was that a different actor playing Roger Linus?

#62. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 26, 2009 10:18 AM

@52 Tinkerbean wrote
" was positive that I heard Little Ben saying "I hated him", but I'm reading elsewhere that the closed-captioning had him saying "I hate it here."

Until you wrote that I was having trouble remembering the line everyone was posting about. But I now remember that scene clearly and dod recall lil Ben saying "I hate it here."

#63. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 26, 2009 10:19 AM

Congratulations Mac!!! And thank you for taking precious time for the review!

As promised, guess the show has started to get back to flashback scenes! As we all know with Lost, the flashbacks have always proven to be significant. I assumed the purpose of showing Sayid able to kill that chicken literally without blinking an eye is meant to support the idea that he is a natural born killer. If the killing needs to be done, it will be done. I wonder if the introduction of an obvious older, more gentler brother will prove significant in the future...? I also found the "Mission accomplished" scene where Ben and Sayid were playing out the last scene of Gone With The Wind to be interesting. I can't quite remember...did Ben recruit Sayid for the killings because Ben told him that these Widmorian men were responsible for his wife's murder or was it to save his friends...? Why did Sayid seem so surprised and almost like his feelings were hurt that he was not going to pal around with Ben anymore...? Sayid seemed so lost when Ben was dismissing him...uncharacteristic of him, I think.

#64. Posted by: boodle at March 26, 2009 10:26 AM

@53. Posted by: benlinusrocks
re: Ben survival tactics

That is some plausible speculation you have made - good stuff!

It is interesting that by trying to rid the world of Ben's evil, Sayid may have very well helped create the dark and twisted man that we have come to love and hate.

Ben will survive - this is a no brainer!
This childhood experience certainly puts the post crash Ben-Sayid relationship into a different perspective. With the will of the island to keep Sayid alive (so that he can return to the island to shoot Ben), Ben pretty much had an invincible hitman working for him. Best hire ever!

The thing to wonder is when did the writers plan this out? In previous seasons, did they already have it in mind that Sayid would eventually shoot a young Ben in the past?

The continuity problem encountered with Charlotte's age goes to show how mistakes can happen in the show, and how TPTB can't even clearly recall themselves what happened! In short, they misremembered what happened, and blamed the actress for vanity, she spoke out and was like "Woah - that's not what happened", and the TPTB remembered that it was misunderstanding with their Continuity expert.

Good synopsis of this here:
http://tinyurl.com/djt8kt

PS

"Lost is Found" is officially on my Billy Madison inspired "People to kill list". Not to be mistaken with the Benjamin Linus "People to kill list"!

#65. Posted by: shikotee at March 26, 2009 10:29 AM

Here's a thought. This may or may not apply to changing the future. But, instead of wiping Ben out as a child, to avoid his evil deeds in the future, why not just LOVE the poor kid, which could perhaps change his ways. Ben is only evil because of his father and other future events. When he came to the island he seemed like a sweet child who was pained by the death of his mother. You would think in the "love not war" era, this would be an obvious solution. i'm just being hopeful for a happy world where we all just get along :-)

#66. Posted by: BEMH at March 26, 2009 10:30 AM

Congratulations Mac!!!
I have been here a long time.
I rememebr your last baby:)

Fresh coffee, a bagel with CC and all alone with the blog until 2 pm. :))))))

#67. Posted by: berkyo at March 26, 2009 10:43 AM

#59@R- dam right its brilliant! :) i suppose none of the fellas ever coo about the women of LOST?? :)

#69@BEMH- agreed. but than there wouldnt have much of a story to tell.

namaste!!

#68. Posted by: tiffani at March 26, 2009 10:51 AM

Maybe Smokey saves Ben. Lol.

#69. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 11:15 AM

tiffani,

"Fellas" don't coo.

We ogle and oogle and drool and point and giggle like the eternal twelve year olds we are.

As a gender, we ain't that bright.

#70. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 26, 2009 11:16 AM

@ Suliet - 33
Good point. I bet they'll show what Kate did with Aaron.

Ha, maybe someone will threaten to kill Sawyer if Jack doesn't do the surgery.

But Jack's just a janitor/workman person.

So I noticed Roger's jumpsuit said Work Man, but Jack's said Workman (different status?)... I think. I noticed this when Jack first got his -- I might be remembering wrong. Probably means less than nothing.

Anyone think Roger and Jack are friends? Probably not, they've only been there two days.

#71. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 11:30 AM

I'm loving the thread about there being more to Amy. If she's a spy, that would be brilliant...as would her marriage to Horace. Very strategic in terms of finding information about Dharma. Makes you wonder about the death of her first husband, though.

I don't blame her too much for wanting to get rid of Sayid. Lack of sleep can sometimes make you feel homicidal. :)

I'll be interested to see how this plays out. It seems like substitutions are allowed on the island. If Ben's dad was in the burning bus, his father is still dead in the bus and because of him. The principle is the same although the details are slightly different. It reminds me of a post last week talking about changing lanes on the highway. The direction you're going is the same regardleess of the lane you are in.

Speaking of busses, the bright, blue VW Bus is such a ridiculous choice for missions of doom. You can't look B-A climbing out of a VW Bus... it's impossible. Maybe it's a metaphor for the Dharma Initiative. Seems lovey and all namaste but has a dark underbelly.

I've got to stop thinking about this show. It's messing with my head. I will be unspeakably upset if this doesn't all tie together.

#72. Posted by: lardiea at March 26, 2009 11:31 AM

Ok - I've changed my mind. Young Ben doesn't die. But what's going to save him?

Second: Others have written that the Dharma gang sure didn't think much of Sayid's "truths" that he spouted. Why not? They all just acted like it didn't mean anything...the truth serum didn't work? I don't get that part at all. And why are these dozen or so making the decision on whether Sayid lives or dies? Where are all the other Dharma people?


#73. Posted by: dk at March 26, 2009 11:33 AM

I GOT IT I GOT IT!!! And I REALLY HOPE someone didn't say this already... haha.

Locke survived Ben's bullet because he didn't have a kidney. Maybe Ben survives Sayid's bullet because he doesn't have a heart?!?!

Aaahahahhaha.

#74. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 11:35 AM

Rats, ransomjackson kinda said the same thing.

@ ransomjackson - 38
"Maybe it's just me but Kate is really starting to bore the hell out of me. Not really lookig forward to next week's ep."

I completely agree. Just, Kate's always bored the hell out of me. That was my same reaction -- not looking forward to next week's episode. The only reason I am is because, well, it's LOST. and because I want to know what she did with Aaron.

#75. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 11:42 AM

@74: ilovebenjaminlinusxx - Good one!

#76. Posted by: LostedIt at March 26, 2009 11:44 AM

@75: ilovebenjaminlinusxx - They should have an episode called "I know what you did last summer with Aaron"...

#77. Posted by: LostedIt at March 26, 2009 11:45 AM

@ lost2theworld - 41
"Just had a thought. Wouldn't it be awesome if big Walt appears to little Ben as he did with Locke? "Get up Ben. You have work to do." That would be how Ben knows he's special."

Totally pulling this out of my ass but -- what if Christian sends Sun and Lupidus back to this exact moment on one condition: SAVE BEN.

Probably not something Chrisitian would do, knowing what we know... or think we know.

#78. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 11:46 AM

@ #59 Posted by: Red...Neck...Man

re: brilliant "cooing"

#1 I would like to propose that "cooing" is really no different that admiring the quality writing on Lost or the intricate storytelling. It's all appreciating the final product. (That blow out of Sayid's hair probably took a lot of effort!)

#2 Let me remind you, my friend, that the cooing, or drooling as ransomjackson so eloquently pointed out, is not limited to the lovely ladies of the Lost blog. Note davidrh's observation early this morning...

"I assumed that particular sentence referred to Kate and Juliet's relationship (to each other). She's trying hard not to start any kind of a female cat-fight that might end up with a full brawl in a mud hole.

Darn it."

So, in closing, I say to all coo and drool away! ;-)

#79. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 26, 2009 11:46 AM

Was that a different actor playing Roger Linus?

→ 62. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 26, 2009 10:18 AM


Nope, it's the same guy. He also played Napoleon Dynamite's uncle.

#80. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 26, 2009 11:49 AM

@72: lardiea - One of my favorite scenes is still the one with Hurley coming out of the forest and killing some of the Others in a blue Dharma van, saving Sayid, Jin, and Bernard.

I don't know about Amy. She's seems like mostly just a background character to me. Yes, she's Ethan's mom, but how is that of any significance? My feeling is they use her in scenes when it's convenient for a new mom to be the one doing/saying something. Maybe I'm wrong and she'll turn out to be something significant.

#81. Posted by: LostedIt at March 26, 2009 11:50 AM

First time Posting on here... starting watching lost 2 months ago, and am all caught up now. Mac, you do a great job and congrats on the new kid.

I like every lost episode... there is always something to learn, sure some are better than others, but they all give you something to think about.

I think it's obvious Ben knew Sayid would kill him in the past... it can only help him, in some way... 'the future can't be changed' according to Faraday. Maybe it's an 'Obi Wan' thing..."if you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you could ever imagine..." paraphrasing, but you get the idea.

And I agree with what someone else said: Why don't these people communicate more with each other... Jin is running around in a void... he has no clue what is going on. Shouldn't someone perhaps key him in a little.

Overall, I liked it... and I'm looking forward to Kate's episode, I just like looking at her, she is smoking hot.

Just a few general comments, remember it's my first time...

Keep up the good work, Mac

And one thing that bothered me was how Sawyer is letting events drive him, not driving events... he should have been more forceful with Sayid, pushing the issue. How risky was that, letting "the other you" interogate Sayid...Who knew what he would give up or say?

#82. Posted by: Plank2x4 at March 26, 2009 11:50 AM

Perhaps little Ben will be operated on my Jack & Jules and they save him but he becomes paralized. The Others take him in and eventually the "island" heals him and he can miraculously walk again. Remember how amazed the Others were that Locke was paralized before crashing on the island. They hailed him as "special" because the island chose him and healed him. Maybe this will happen to Ben? That the island will heal him and that's how he became their leader eventually. So, by shooting little Ben, Sayid is putting bigger bug-eye Ben in a position to become leader.

or not...

#83. Posted by: BunnyLover at March 26, 2009 11:53 AM

@ 80 Crispy: Everyone must also know that he was Lazlo in 'Real Genius'. One of the best roles ever!

I'm pretty sure he was on the TV show Martin as well....Martiiiiiiiiiiiiiin!

#84. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 26, 2009 11:56 AM

RE: "I hated him".
I noticed this too, but I just assumed it was because little Benny was planning on leaving with Sayid and never coming back. This would mean he would never have to see his daddy Roger again. In that case, Roger would be "dead" to him because he would no longer be in his life. Now Ben doesn't have to worry about him, and therefore, can forget him and everything he's done to him.

#85. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 11:56 AM

Congrats Mac!
I felt that the show last night was slow except for the last 5 minutes.

I do not watch the previews because it spoils the next show for me.

Here are three points that kept me awake last night:

1. Ben said that 'he hated him'. Is it possible Ben can change his conscience with his younger self? That could also explain the Mustard reference from Namaste.

2. We did not see any blood when young Ben was shot. Is it possible Richard helps him (young Ben) or Juliet helps him and that is the first person he sees after waking up?

3. I still think there will be a cat fight between Juliet and Kate. Kate needs to stop bringing other people down. Even though she is not happy why does she need to do it to other people.

#86. Posted by: AbeFroman at March 26, 2009 11:56 AM

#70 ransomjackson

fair enough ;) have a great day!!

#87. Posted by: tiffani at March 26, 2009 11:57 AM

Did anyone else notice the complete absence of blood when Ben was shot? If that bullet entered him properly, I don't see how anyone could save him.

Also, Ben definitely says "I hate it here" rather than "I hated him". I'm pretty sure he wont kill his dad before the purge.

#88. Posted by: Jake from New York at March 26, 2009 11:57 AM

My bet is that Elsa in Berlin, and Ilana in L.A. - wear the same bracelet.→ 5. Posted by: DocH

Interesting. RG? GR? hmmmmmm
44444444444444444444444444444

Don't you think that Sawyer and the gang would be curious what happened to them?→ 6. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Yes. I assume that was the patro he had Jin doing. along with the "Locke vigil"
And soooo sorry about Ben. Didn't he look smashing in the scene with Sayid? Who really looked pretty good too.

888888888888888888888888888888888

The book young Ben gives to Sayid → 8. Posted by: Debunker

wow. does this sound like Ben or what? I would like to read this. Thanks.

1515151515151515151515151515151551
think amy knows alot more than she's letting on, she seemed a little to eager to have sayid killed and something just seems off about her, i cant put my finger on it but something just isnt right.→ 47. Posted by: tiffani

I agree. Just a feeling.If she was really worried she would ship herself and little Ethan to the states away from all the hostiles.

16161616161616161616161616161616

Ben says "I hate it here." Had my CC on.
Old TV and bad sound

#89. Posted by: berkyo at March 26, 2009 11:58 AM

So what do you guys think about Ethan surviving the purge? Apparently he was okay with killing his parents.

We don't know if Amy died earlier, but we know that Horace didn't. Why was he okay with killing his father?

#90. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 11:59 AM

@ Christina - 49
"I agree, Tiffani, that there is more to Amy, after all, she does end up with the Others in New Otherton."

She does? How do you know?

#91. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 12:02 PM

I liked the irony of having William Sanderson play Oldham in this episode. As Larry in Newhart, he was with Darryl and Darryl, who both didn't talk. In this episode, he was the guy who got Sayid to talk.

#92. Posted by: monkeybiz at March 26, 2009 12:02 PM

Congratulations Mac.

I'm leaning toward Amy, Paul(of the ankh), Horace, and maybe most of the 'inner group' (the ones voting) as all being Other moles. I think lots of things have changed in this time line. The Darryl tepee in the woods didn't seem very darmha like either. And just what else was Horace talking to RA about??

Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore!
Course correction... more like a multi-car and semi pileup.
Still say that when Sawyer squished the frog, TWTVTW (That Was The Variable That Was)

#93. Posted by: mtncbn at March 26, 2009 12:04 PM

@78: ilovebenjaminlinusxx - I think of Christian as more of a guide/advisor than of someone who can/would actually do anything.

#94. Posted by: LostedIt at March 26, 2009 12:13 PM

Speaking of TeePee's... what's up with that?

What do we get next? The DHARMA motivational speaker... leaving in a van... down by the sonic fence?

#95. Posted by: DocH at March 26, 2009 12:15 PM

Well enough, in fact, to be able to manipulate them with exact precision "thirty-or-so years from now" as he will have changed greatly- but they will still be essentially the same people when he first encounters them.→ 56Posted by: skybox

But if this is the correct time line, the losties will remember him and all the 77 events. And will probably live ion the island never leave and not get on 815 to crash. And if the do, they will know all about Ben and Richard and Dharma. This means you can change the past and the future.

#96. Posted by: berkyo at March 26, 2009 12:16 PM

At the very end of the episode, during the final credits and before the clips from next week, there is a very brief shot of what appears to be cardboard cutouts of Juliette and Jin with big Dharma symbols on them. I am not certain that it is the two of them because what is most striking is that a cardboard cutout of Hurley is moved into the shot with an even bigger Dharma symbol and then moves back out. This is totally strange! Did anyone else see it or have I finally gone over the Lost edge?

#97. Posted by: jc at March 26, 2009 12:23 PM

Thinking about the meaning of "The Variable"...
(See I can't even remain focused on the current episode. It didn't grab me.)
If "The Constant" was a Desmond episode, then does "the variable" refer to him as well? Is he the only one who can throw a monkey wrench into this whole business to affect some kind of change?
Forget Kate next week. She is tiresome. I'm looking forward to seeing Des again eventually. Much more interested in where that leads...

#98. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 26, 2009 12:29 PM

TWTVTW (That Was The Variable That Was)
→ 93. Posted by: mtncbn

Long Post

Re course correction and you can't change the past. I don't think changing the past is impossible.

Desmond did change the past. He stopped Charlie from dying when He was supposed to -Drowning. And then he did it again when the lightning was supposed to kill Charlie. Then he did it again with the arrow. HE DID CHANGE THE ORDER OF EVENTS. He DID NOT change the outcome which is course correction back to the way things should turn out. Charlie dies. Charlie has to die.You can't change that.

So I think that the losties could be changing things. They have to. You can't go to the past and not affect it just by your very being there. They SHOULD NOT. They are NOT SUPPOSED TO. But they are. Because of something we don't about know yet.The variable in a steadfast rule. A mistake. An event that shouldn't have happened and the universe is trying to straighten things out. But it's a mess and will take some doing.

I agree that Ben is probably not dead. Like Locke. as we have seen before. But I would write it that he is dead. And if he IS. TPTB are not necessarily lying. Maybe they are showing us how screwed up things would be if you do change the past. So the losties have to put things right again and fix it. Because you are NOT ALLOWED to change the past. It's Not that it is impossible.

I am trying to trace each character that has caused a time problem back to see where it started and see if that event did not happen-then the time screw up would not happen. Desmond seeing Charlie's death was because Desmond turned the fail safe key. He was there because Locke saved him from suicide. so we split to Locke's trace but I will continue with Desmond. He was there to meet Locke because he was found on the beach by Inman.(and meets Farady?) He was on the beach becasue his boat had wrecked. He was on the boat because he was in a race. Widmore connection. He was in the race because he met Libby and she gave him a boat. Libby > Santa rosa > Hurley > the numbers. He was also in the race because of Penny and Widmore. And here I am stuck because I come to Desmond going back to see his own life and meeting Eloise Hawking and actually have him realize he can but should not meddle with time.

I like the idea of TWTVTW (That Was The Variable That Was)
most other characters tghat I trace back come to a point of "I don't know"
----------------------------
Question. When Desmond meets Faraday, Inman was already dead. Desmond knows the air is safe. Why does he wear the hazmat suit?


#99. Posted by: berkyo at March 26, 2009 12:39 PM

Agree with the many comments that Ben is not dead. A bullet through the heart (actually we don't know it was the heart, just somewhere on his upper torso) shouldn't be too much for the Island to cure. After all, it cured Naomi who had a tree branch through her middle (but she perished from a knife in the back...why?)

People seem to be saved somewhat randomly on this show. Could be that the island is like a capricious God who chooses whom to save when when it pleases God. I also like the idea of the smoke monster possibly manifesting itself in human form a la Christian Shepherd and Ben's mother. Could it also be that the others are like the Israelites wandering around alternatively invoking God's pleasure and displeasure? Following this possible story line, do the others think Ben is the Messiah because he is resurrected from the dead and talks to dead people (his mother, possibly Jacob) and are later disillusioned? Or still further, God takes on human form (burning bush, the person who argues with Abraham about wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah, so we have the vengeful smoke monster possibly taking on human form. The writers seem to like to borrow plot lines from lots of places.

If Ben did indeed say "hated him" and not "hate him" he nevertheless did not cook Dad in the microbus. He gassed him in the microbus when he (Ben) was a 30's something adult. Which fixes the time line somewhat between 1977, when the purge occurred, and when 815 crashed.

"hated" could have been a slip. I know that the writers and producers claim that nothing on the show is accidental, but they are not perfect and little slips can happen. Was that really Clair over Sun's shoulder when Sun was talking to Christian Shepherd? Or did they catch a stagehand mucking about in the background. The door opening and mist coming in while Christian Shepherd was talking to Sun did suggest some eminence had entered the building.

I like the idea that Kate will play a significant role in the healing of Ben. Why else did they all "have" to come back to the island if not to fulfill what has already happened?

And despite what she does or does not say, Ilana must be working for Ben in order to get Sayid on that plane to fulfill his destiny.

Does Ben remember any of the Oceanic 815 people from his experiences as a youth? If so, he give not hint that he does or does he. Anyone pick something up?

#100. Posted by: august paul at March 26, 2009 12:43 PM

Additional question. Can someone explain the title "He's our you" to me? Did someone (Sawyer?) say that?

#101. Posted by: august paul at March 26, 2009 12:44 PM

Mac, congrats on the new arrival...& good luck w/getting some sleep! And great review as always. I missed the entire episode (schoolwork interference) but reading your review is like reading Cliffs Notes (not that I ever did such a thing, of course...such a grind ; >).

Enjoyed all of the comments thus far, but absolutely had to comment on this one:

→ 70. ransomjackson:

LOL—thanks!

#102. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 26, 2009 12:46 PM

The scene with Sayid and his brother was reminiscent of what Eko did for Yemi.

#103. Posted by: lovelost at March 26, 2009 12:47 PM

As Tinkerbean pointed out, Little Ben definitely says 'I really hate IT HERE'

That's funny, last night I totally thought he said he 'hated him'

But I'll go with the re-watch this morning after coffee over the original watch last nite with wine :-)

#104. Posted by: 74 at March 26, 2009 12:49 PM

@101 "He's our you".

Sawyer whispered that to Sayid when he asked who the teepee guy (Darell and Darell) was...

#105. Posted by: boodle at March 26, 2009 12:55 PM

@ Jake from New York - 88
"Did anyone else notice the complete absence of blood when Ben was shot? If that bullet entered him properly, I don't see how anyone could save him."

Yes, I noticed this too. Post #74 would explain that. =]

#106. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 1:01 PM

I know the "rules" in which the Losies can't change the future.

While they might not be able to change the events that take place in the future, could they, perhaps, be able to change the people the cause the events?

Perhaps baby Ethan becomes the new Ben? Perhaps Sayid, being that he's assimilated with Dharma nor the hostiles, becomes the new Rosseau?

#107. Posted by: Schiano at March 26, 2009 1:06 PM

@83 or maybe he is NOT special.. ie does not heal.

Either way, this shooting changes ben's status, and now he learns about the power to manipulate. He will be able to do things that he was unable to do.
I think that ben is gonna be saved by juiled and jack (remember when jack saved him the first time??)...

Also.. can anyone remember when ben does the purge, how is his relationship to his dad? cautionsly better?

about last weeks review, i thought of the shining as well (with the pictures).. was 1/2 expecting jack to pop out and say 'all work no play ...'

about the flaming van, was there someone in it. I thought that this was a distraction.

paul is a bit of a weenie.. but he will be trouble in the future

#108. Posted by: lostatwork at March 26, 2009 1:29 PM

First time poster. Mac - Congrats on new family addition. Thank the Mrs. for allowing you to continue with your reviews.

Two points.
1. This show is filled with religious references. Anyone else think that Ben = Satan? I don't mean that LOST is all about characters representing a religious figure. But, from my upbringing and knowledge via reading, about what Satan is and does and how he is represented; it is easy for me to see that Ben's character is very much like what I would expect a human manifestation of Satan to be. That's not a judgement of Ben being evil versus good, just an observation of what I see him best representing.
2. My guess. Ben will survive. He will in fact survive because Juliet, not Jack, will be the one to save him. I don't recall the exact espisode or season. Sometime after Juliet first arrives on the island. Another female comments to Juliet (about Ben) something along the lines of, of course he does, you look just (or exactly) like her. We never found out who the "her" really was. It's my theory that the "her" really was Juliet from 1977. And, of course, Juliet (after first arriving from the sub) would look exactly like the time traveling Juliet stuck in 1977.

#109. Posted by: FuzzyOne at March 26, 2009 1:39 PM

Eloise Hawking is Ellie, the young woman, an "Other", who escorted Daniel Faraday via gunpoint to the Jughead. Daniel said she looks familiar--'cause she's his mom. She's the right age..and contemporary of Widmore. I wonder how she got off the island and why she is now "helping" Ben. Could Daniel and Penny be siblings????

#110. Posted by: Perry at March 26, 2009 1:40 PM

@ 97. Posted by: jc.

Could you be referring to 'Lost Untangled?'

________________


When little Ben sneaks into see Sayid at the end, it's as if Sayid is expecting him. Could there have been some hidden message in the book? Some instruction from future Ben perhaps?

Doesn't eliminating little Ben open the door for adult Ben to get into the 70's with the others?

#111. Posted by: 74 at March 26, 2009 1:43 PM

@101. Posted by: august paul
re: "He's our you"

He's (Sawyer is referring to the Dharma interrogator) our you (Sayid was the 815 interrogator, who tortured Sawyer in S1 with the hopes of finding the inhalers for Shannon).

#112. Posted by: shikotee at March 26, 2009 1:53 PM

So Ben's dad (Uncle Rico) is mopping up the calaboose. Ben walks in with a sammitch for Sayid. Uncle Rico, peeved and irked that his boy Benny never made him lunch, takes the sammie and flings it into the corner. Now he's got THAT to mop up. What an idjit.

BTW - Funny little coincidence...William Sanderson (Oldham) was in an episode of Dharma and Greg. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

#113. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 26, 2009 1:56 PM

BSIHIH: Ben Said I Hate It Here

@6/IloveBen: Maybe Ben saves his creepy buddy Ethan when the Purge comes.

@53/benlinusrocks: Love the doll theory! Pulling all those splinters out will be the big problem. Good thing Jack (the secret surgeon/workman) is there!

Could Faraday be one of the recruiters at this point? He would be off island which would explain his absence.

Does Oldham have two brothers named Steve and Scott?

Now we can explain why Ben wanted to have the Beach Blanket Bingo with Kate: he was spanking it to her when he was young! Call Artie Ziff!

#114. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at March 26, 2009 1:58 PM

@90. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
re: "So what do you guys think about Ethan surviving the purge? Apparently he was okay with killing his parents."

It is quite possible/likely that Ethan was not on the island at the time of the Purge. Unless of course, you believe that he received his medical training on the island, which is not likely.

Depending on how much Ethan knew about the time travel aspect of things (you can't change destiny), he may have accepted that Horace's death was inevitable. His mom may have had a falling out with Horace, eventually siding with the Native faction....

#115. Posted by: shikotee at March 26, 2009 2:05 PM

CMOTNK!(Congratulations Mac on the new kid)

Thought doped-up Sayid was going to laugh at radzinsky and tell him his exploded skull will decorate his precious Swan station.

@38 ransomjackson: glad somebody else still remembers that classic joke!!

#116. Posted by: CC_Boston at March 26, 2009 2:07 PM

Couple thoughts:

I am starting to get on the Hate Kate bandwagon. She has next week to redeem herself or she'll be forever lost. I mean, talk about YAWN.

I have thought since Paul died that he and Amy were Other spies. I think she knew Sayid wasn't and other and maybe that's why she wanted him dead? It also lends to explaining how Ethan becomes an Other.

Of course Ben will be healed...and as others beat me to saying...this is what really makes him evil...his dad made him want to leave...this betrayal will send him over the bug eyed edge for sure.

I was excited about the he's our you line...but that was crap b/c that guy didn't torture him!!!! SOOOO not as BA as Sayid.

Speaking of that...I don't believe the Dharma people wouldn't have bitten on the future/plane crash/etc line. UNLESS this is what makes them start investigating time travel, etc.

Finally...I know most of the acronyms on this blog...but what is tptb? the people that..????

#117. Posted by: Shana Roberson at March 26, 2009 2:08 PM

First time posting here - but I love reading all the comments.

This may be dumb but the first thing I thought was that young Ben is indeed dead and somehow the grown-up Ben on the island finds his way back to 1977 and then kills his father...remember the gas mask and the van incident? Could that be possible? Ben doesn't age because of this weird set of circumstances. That may be why RA doesn't age because he did something similar. It's a wild stab.

Also I'm thinking that Ethan and some will escape on subs...after all Ethan becomes a doctor, right? I don't think he can get training on the island for that. Somehow...the losties have to get back to the right time.

#118. Posted by: jms at March 26, 2009 2:12 PM

What if little Ben is not Big Ben? What was Ben's name when he was captured by the Losties as an other? What if Ben is really this other guy and made everyone think he is Ben Linus?

#119. Posted by: Renee at March 26, 2009 2:13 PM

Shana,

The powers that be have informed us that TPTB stands for Jughead Was The Bomb.

#120. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 26, 2009 2:14 PM

@113. Posted by: ransomjackson
re: Uncle Rico, peeved and irked that his boy Benny never made him lunch...

Roger's peeved because he hates his life and his occupation. Roger jokes at Sayid, wondering how he got caught by "these idiots". Sayid triggers his rage by responding "and yet your the one who mops up after them." Ouch!

Poor Ben just so happens to walk in at the wrong time, and faces the wrath of his father.

Skeletor is not a fun dude!

#121. Posted by: shikotee at March 26, 2009 2:15 PM

Finally...I know most of the acronyms on this blog...but what is tptb? the people that..????

→ 117. Posted by: Shana Roberson

The Powers That Be = Darlton & Cuse

#122. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 26, 2009 2:16 PM

I dinstinctly heard Ben say one of the following:

I hate it here
I wait a year
I ate a deer
I hate fear
Appreciate cold beer
At Kate did leer

OR

I hated him
I dated Kim
Sang a hymn
Late to gym
Fate is whim
Need a trim

#123. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 26, 2009 2:16 PM

oops...TPTB = Lindelof (sp) & Cuse

#124. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 26, 2009 2:20 PM

Why are people speculating that young Ben killed his dad (Roger Workman) and put him in that burning van? Just because it sounded like Ben said "I hated him"?

We've already seen in a flashback that a 20-something Ben gassed his dad in the van on the top of a hill (during the Purge), and then dumped the van wit his dad's body in the bushes (later found by Sawyer & Hurley).

In fact, according to already-seen flashbacks, young Ben remained with Dharma until this time (his 20's), so there's no way that escape with Sayid was going to succeed.

So the more interesting question to me is... assuming young Ben survives (which he will), how does he come to trust the Hostiles/Others again 10 years later?

#125. Posted by: LostInConnecticut at March 26, 2009 2:22 PM

@123. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

Classic Lost "broken telephone" via some comments here!!

It's funny cause it's true! ;)

#126. Posted by: shikotee at March 26, 2009 2:23 PM

Thanks!

By the way, no talk of tptb messing with Rebecca Mader? (see what I did there? :P) I think there is some bad juju there. That's fine with me, I can't stand Charlotte's character...

Which reminds me of something I say every week to myself...DO SOMETHING WITH MILES...he has this amazing gift that could make things interesting...and we get nothing...but we wasted so much time and energy in watching Charlotte's nose bleed...ugh.

#127. Posted by: Shana Roberson at March 26, 2009 2:26 PM

@125. Posted by: LostInConnecticut
re: "In fact, according to already-seen flashbacks, young Ben remained with Dharma until this time"

We don't know that he remains with Dharma while growing up. We do know that he is back with them as an adult, but he likely had various experiences in between. Ben is highly educated, and based on all the forged documents we've seen, he's had a lengthy experience in the outside world.

I've always suspected that he went to College somewhere in the outside world.
Eventually, he returns, tricks Widmore, and instigates the Purge...

#128. Posted by: shikotee at March 26, 2009 2:30 PM

Mac- best line of the night
Sayid- "How did you find me?"
Linus: "I looked."


Also brushing over the subtle nature of the Dharmaville drama was uncalled for...
Juliet looked friggin HEARTBROKEN when she was looking out that window- why, because Jack was back? I don't think so, she probably does love Sawyer now after three years ,but wistfully knows he will go after Kate...

#129. Posted by: pezme at March 26, 2009 2:35 PM

@127. Posted by: Shana Roberson
re: "By the way, no talk of tptb messing with Rebecca Mader?"

I mentioned it @65, with a good link describing what happened. It certainly shows that TPTB are not flawless, and how picking at small details in this show can be a waste of time...

#130. Posted by: shikotee at March 26, 2009 2:39 PM

→ 125. Posted by: So the more interesting question to me is... assuming young Ben survives ... how does he come to trust the Hostiles/Others again 10 years later?
- - - -
Why does it have to be 10 years? He has already been enchanted by Richard. Why can't Ben get better, then in a few months have a man-to-man (immortal-to-maniacal) conversation with Richard...

"Why'd your man Sayid try to kill me?"

"Sayid... is not my man."

"Oh... okay, nevermind. That slot for future island overlord still open?"

#131. Posted by: DocH at March 26, 2009 2:44 PM

What if big Ben is Henry Gale ... he has made us believe all along that he is Ben Linus. Little Ben gets shot and dies... everyone wonders "what does this mean now?" but Ben is still around, and has been around because he is Henry Gale.

#132. Posted by: Renee at March 26, 2009 2:45 PM

@109: FuzzyOne - Your point #2 is a repetition almost verbatim of things I've said this week and in previous weeks.

@111: 74 - I think I and others have already stated that someone existing in a given time period does not preclude that same person from another time period showing up in the time period in question - see Locke and the light from the hatch, Sawyer watching Claire giving birth to turnip-head (and thus Sawyer already exists in that time period as well) and numerous other examples.

TPTB = the powers that be - Damon and Carlton, sometimes referred to as Darlton.

#133. Posted by: LostedIt at March 26, 2009 3:00 PM

@ 118. Posted by: jms at March 26, 2009 2:12 PM

---
I had this same thought too! The Ben that did the Purge always seemed too old to me. I know it could easily be an actor thing, but what if the 'flashback' we saw of Ben setting off the purge was really the Ben from the 2007 timeline? Confusing much?!

#134. Posted by: B Mar at March 26, 2009 3:07 PM

@renee 132: look back at season 2 when they dig up "Henry Gale" and look at the ID picture.

#135. Posted by: schiano at March 26, 2009 3:12 PM

@ 55. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 26, 2009 9:59 AM
I'm really starting to believe that Amy is in cahoots with the Others,…Regardless, either she's an Other spy or her dead ex was and she's taken over. That could explain Ethan's Otherness.

Excellent theory! I definitely like this…

#136. Posted by: Kristi at March 26, 2009 3:13 PM

@136: Could also explain why Ben, after The Purge, found Horace on the bench -- and Amy was not included in that scene. (Granted, she wasn't cast yet!) However, if Amy -- chronologically speaking -- wasn't with Dharma at that point -- because she'd joined the Others -- then that would explain why she wasn't included in the first flashback of Ben & The Purge.

I still wonder why Adult Ethan went all psycho about Claire. I don't think TPTB have ever addressed that, no?

#137. Posted by: DCDude at March 26, 2009 3:30 PM

@ 97 JC;
Yes, you saw a bit of the preview for "Lost Untangled", which, if you haven't seen them, they are very funny recaps on ABC.com

#138. Posted by: Christina at March 26, 2009 3:36 PM

If Amy is in cahoots (just west of toxicated and north of corrigible) with the Others and her ex-(read: deceased) hubby was not, and if he found out about her covert alliance on their picnic (the Others use Miracle Whip in their potato salad instead of mayo) and wasn't too happy about it, that could explain the gun and his getting whacked by Others. They were trying to recruit him and he wasn't having it.

#139. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 26, 2009 3:43 PM

If you watch Lost Untangled you see a quick shot of a spoiler scene from next week. I won't say what it is.

#140. Posted by: jms at March 26, 2009 3:44 PM

Hasn't it been confirmed somewhere that AMy is Amelia from the Book Club at Juliet's house in New Otherton? That would confirm that she becomes (or already is?) an Other.

#141. Posted by: Christina at March 26, 2009 3:45 PM

Sayid could have saved a lot of future lives if he let Dharma kill him instead of trying to off young Ben.

I think it's worth pointing out that Dharma's vote to execute Sayid should strip away any veneer of respectability they have. Or are we assuming they were planning to execute him and not simply excommunicate him?

#142. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 26, 2009 3:46 PM

@ 133, LostedIt.

You make it sound like there's a rule book or something! lol

Yes, Sawyer did watch Claire giving birth and they saw the light from the hatch, but that's it. They didn't associate with them. And they never watched themselves in a different time period if I'm not mistaken.

#143. Posted by: 74 at March 26, 2009 3:49 PM

Just something I noticed about the latest Podcast...when TPTB are talking about the last scene in He's Our You, they always say,"Sayid SHOOTS Ben", they never use the word "kill", as in "Sayid kills Ben". The fact that they avoid using the word 'kills' says something.

#144. Posted by: Christina at March 26, 2009 4:06 PM

i think people have forgotten that Ben already knew Eloise from before. She told him, ( in the church), that he had to bring all of the O6 back and only had a 72 hr (?) window to do so. then he went on his mission to gather them up and brought to her.
As for Ethan surviving the purge: could his mother have defected to the Others later on, and therefore, he would survive?

#145. Posted by: mins at March 26, 2009 4:15 PM

? 37. Posted by: lost2theworld
How very Dharma/hippie-like that their truth serum is a "long, strange trip."
Too funny. I wonder if the Dharma acid is delivered in the air drops or if it is manufactured on island. Is Timothy Leary on the island conducting experiments? Maybe he's an Other?

Well, I think Leary was in Ann Arbor in the 60s...maybe with the Degroots.
I went to U of M in the late 80s. Leary is legendary there because he'd gotten legislation to the effect that pot was only a $15 fine.

******

We all know Ben is a very bad man. Ben has no moral compass (yes, this is deliberately tying into Richard and the compass test with Locke). We know he murders his father. We know he wipes out the Dharma-ites in the Purge. We know he has no compunction about killing Keamy even though he knows about the dead man's trigger that will blow up the freighter and everyone on it. He shapes Sayid to be an assassin. We know he strangles Locke.

While young Ben has been his father's punching bag for quite some time (likely since his birth which resulted in his mom's death, a fact for which Roger has never forgiven him), Ben himself has not been violent (not that we have seen from a young Ben at least). He was actually dare I say...nice. He made sandwiches for a prisoner, even though he never did for his own father. What could possibly make such a nice boy -- such a nice chicken salad sandwich making boy -- turn into a manipulator par excellent capable of murder?

We were all wondering why the past couldn't be changed. Why wouldn't or couldn't someone simply kill Ben and prevent everything from happening? Some might say, "Oh, but that would blow the whole timeline out of the water and set parallel timelines into play."


I have a different take on the whole thing.

If the past has already happened and is unchangeable, the shooting happens/happened, and Ben survives/survived it (perhaps via Island Mystical Healing Properties 101).

Sayid's action did not and could not change the past. Rather it cemented it.

1970s Ben does not know that Sayid is not an Other. In fact, Lil Ben not only believes that Sayid is an Other, but believes he was sent by the Others (specifically Richard) to take him into the woods. Richard had told him to be patient, and he has been.

Freeing Sayid "the Other" and being shot by him is an act of violence puts young Ben over the edge and let's his mind go to those places where it can work out grand manipulations and culminate in murders. (Ironic that the worker comments to Chang about going back to kill Hitler when they are breeding a potentially more diabolical murderer in their midst in Ben.) This event shapes Ben into that evil, malicious, bug-eyed Ben we love.

Future Ben KNOWS Sayid is the one who shoots him while trying to escape to the Others. Future Ben goes out of his way to have Sayid become an assassin, manipulating him in such a way as to make his murderous actions almost rote, rote enough at least to condition him into being able to pull the trigger on a young boy.

Taking it a step further, I think it also drives him into wanting to drive the Others out as well, hence the rift with Widmore.

#146. Posted by: Gumbo at March 26, 2009 4:17 PM

Mac attack #2 yahoo! Congrats

I think Little Ben said both."I hated him" and a little further in the conversation "I hate it here, take me with you" At least that's how I remember it

#147. Posted by: Spaced_in_Lost at March 26, 2009 4:19 PM

Additional thoughts:
Juliette the Mechanic is brought in to deliver Amy's baby.

Why not Jack the Janitor saving young Ben's life?

When we see Locke talking to looping Horace Nosebleed, what is it Horace is doing? Is he building Jacob's hut? If so, how does Horace become connected enough to the Others to do this?

*******
? 83. Posted by: BunnyLover at March 26, 2009 11:53 AM @ 80 Crispy: Everyone must also know that he was Lazlo in 'Real Genius'. One of the best roles ever!

Real Genius! Awesome reference...In the immortal words of Socrates...I drank what?!
*******


...think amy knows alot more than she's letting on, she seemed a little to eager to have sayid killed and something just seems off about her, i cant put my finger on it but something just isnt right.? 47. Posted by: tiffani

Jack Bauer told her "You have no choice"

#148. Posted by: Gumbo at March 26, 2009 4:54 PM

@143: 74 - Sorry, that wording I chose did come off as somewhat impersonal and heavy-handed. Not my intention at all. What I meant was simply that it has been observed that there have definitely been instances where time-traveling Losties have in fact existed in the same time period as their non-time-traveling counterparts. The fact that they haven't actually walked up to them, seen one another, and/or interacted with themselves is more I think a storyline buildup tactic than it is any type of indication that someone cannot do those things. I wouldn't be surprised if, in some future episode, someone actually does seem themselves and possibly even interacts with themselves in some way. For that matter, I would say I think that it's possible that the "incident" that supposedly occurs as the season finale might involve a person contacting themselves - physically. My personal belief is it involves Jughead but we'll see.

#149. Posted by: LostedIt at March 26, 2009 5:12 PM

@148 Gumbo posted a "?" for post 83 by BunnyLover.

This made me go read my post again and I typo'd the first sentence which should read "Perhaps little Ben will be operated on *by* Jack & Jules..."

Sorry if the rest didn't make sense. (?) It makes sense to me, and that's what's scary!

#150. Posted by: BunnyLover at March 26, 2009 5:12 PM

Congrats on the birth of baby number dos, Mac.

It was interesting to see a good old fashioned flashback to begin the show, that hasn't happened in a long time, probably since season three. I love Sayid's eerie calm in the face of impending torture and death, you can tell he knows his "reason" for coming back to the island is the execution of young Ben Linus. He has finally grasped the full import of Ben telling him he is a natural killer back in the Dominican Republic when young Ben asks him for the opportunity to escape, it's right then that everything falls into place for him.

Interesting side notes, we haven't seen Locke in three episodes, my guess is that there needs to be some resolution to the past Ben storyline so that we don't right off the mortal danger to young Ben's life. If we kept seeing present Ben still limping around in the 2007, it would probably create less tension. I love how Hurley has picked up on the Juliet/Sawyer dynamic almost immediately just like he did with Jack and Kate during season one, the big fella does have skills besides cooking evidently.

Regarding Juliet, I'm not sure it's fear of Kate exclusively or that plus the fact that she still has unresolved issues with Jack, which I thought was evident when Jack and Sawyer had their little soiree back in the last episode. It like they were playing both the Sawyer-Kate and the Jack-Juliet angles simultaneously. I'm curious to see where Sayid is going to end up because he obviously can't hang around anywhere near Dharma Land and who knows how friendly the "Hostiles" would be to outsiders, anyway that's all I have today.

#151. Posted by: unladenswallow at March 26, 2009 5:39 PM

Congrats on #2 Mac! Great recap, as always. I just finished re-watching "The Man Behind the Curtain" and noticed two things.

After the classroom scene (where sounds of smokey set the whole 'hostile' idea into motion) Horace has a brief in bungalow chat with Roger Workman Linus. Horace tells Roger that it 'could' have been the hostiles...we're not really sure who they were. Could it be the fallout of Sayid's latest mission?

#2. At the end of the episode, right before Ben shoots Locke, Ben states that "he was ONE of the people smart enough to have survived the purge which is more than I can say about you," trigger pulled=Locke with Dharma skeletons. Does this mean that there ARE other original Dharma members that survived the purge? Ethan? Amy?

Okay...3 things...while browsing through Lostapedia, I noticed this about Amelia (the book group elder that meets Juliet before her book club group) "She apparently lived at the Barracks before the Others left from there." This makes me ponder Amy- as stated in SEVERAL posts, there's more to her than we know.

#152. Posted by: ChiTownTeach at March 26, 2009 5:43 PM

Where is the easiest place to find the Darlton podcasts?

#153. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 26, 2009 6:23 PM

Many blessings on the family Mac - the baby's safe arrival is good to hear. Hope Mom is doing well also.


99. Posted by: berkyo

I also have been tracking the early lives of the losties while on the island. I keep thinking about Demond's premonitions and of Charlie's near death encounters. If you follow Charlie back a little more, Jack also saved Charlie. I was thinking that maybe they will go all the way back to the beginning and let things run a natural coarse. Jack also saved Boone in the water only to have him die later. If he had died, would Locke have found the hatch? I think there may have been more near deaths but I'll need to rewatch S1 and S2.

Don't forget that Desmond was in the monestary with the monk that knew Eloise Hawking. So maybe Desmond was selected for something special. She did tell him the only thing important he would do in his life would be to push a button every 108 minutes. If that is true, I don't see his visions serving a true purpose. (I'm very suspicous of Desmond running into Penny on his first day out. Could that have been a set up for him to meet Widmore? Was Libby also a plant?) I'm not a very trusting person so my mind can get carried away easily.

Desmond did manage to save Charlie long enough for Charlie to impact on the lives of the O6 and get them off the island. If Charlie had died when he was supposed to, the O6 possibly would not have been saved. If the O6 need to return to coarse correct, then everything since Charlie's hanging by Ethan is subject to change.

Early on I thought that when someone reached a certain level of self recognition that they then died. Charlie reached that point when he gave up drugs and saved Jack in the cave. Boone gave up Shannon. Shannon found herself through Sayid. The rest are still trying to find themselves.

I feel that Sayid is going to go the same way as Eko. He is not going to ask forgiveness for anything he's felt compelled to do. Even though he's not happy about it, he still falls into the same old patterns.

Just a few nose-bleed thoughts - self-preservation is going to save Sawyer and Kate. I'm beginning to think Jack will be joining Daniel in la-la land. Hugo is going to buy this island with all his money and everyone left will live happily ever after!

What's in that guitar case Hurley brought back and I think Jin is acting strange because he's out looking for Sun.

I'll try to stop thinking now.

#154. Posted by: pebspostal at March 26, 2009 6:29 PM

This is totally off topic but remember way back in Season 1 (I think) when they show someone listening in on a dharma training class? Any thoughts on that now?

#155. Posted by: sly at March 26, 2009 6:44 PM

@ Gumbo - 146
Love your explantion.

"(Ironic that the worker comments to Chang about going back to kill Hitler when they are breeding a potentially more diabolical murderer in their midst in Ben.)"

Ahahahaha. Did I mention that I LOVE Benjamin Linus??? Yes, this is ironic... and quite funny actually.

[I'm not saying at all that I love Hitler, Talaat, Enver, Jemal, or Pol Pot] -- only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Point is -- Benjamin Linus is one of a kind. He is of a different breed. He falls under the "loveable" category.

Ok, time for me to stop not making sense.

"This event shapes Ben into that evil, malicious, bug-eyed Ben we love."

Indeed.

#156. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 6:48 PM

BY THE WAY -- I don't think I said this last week --

HURLEY HAS MY JOB!!!!!

For all that do not know what I am talking about, the Dharma Initiative recruited me as a Cook. Well, now Hugo is a Chef. Funny huh? =]

#157. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 6:54 PM

Long, long time reader, first time poster. Congrats Mac! Be warned, 1+1 does not equal 2 when it comes to kids. Speaking of math, could the Valenzetti (sp?) equation have anything to do with all this? It predicted the date of the end of the world and Darma was working on a way to change a variable to change that date. Isn't that like changing fate?

#158. Posted by: bouds at March 26, 2009 7:16 PM

no worries LostedIt :-)
If we knew all the answers, none of us would be on this site, right?
Sayid had a purpose for shooting little Ben. I don't think it's because he's pissed at him. If that were the case, he would have done it at the pier (23).
With all Sayid has done, I still can't see him shooting a kid.
Something was relayed to Sayid while he was in the cell...whether it came from the paper bag or the book, something was spelled out for Sayid. I noticed that the first 'sandwich' came in a paper bag, yet the next two came on trays.
I don't know, this episode was slow until I got chills when Sayid said 'that's why I'm here' in response to little Ben asking for help getting to the others.


#159. Posted by: 74 at March 26, 2009 7:31 PM

@mac: Congratulations on the new Mac mini :))

@RNM: Dude! You're getting married?! Darrell Ann and Scarfy will be devastated -- congratulations!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The dichotomy of the blow-dried male:

Leather-coat-rockin' Sayid = delicious

Clean-shaven Sawyer = not so much
(Please dirty him up again!)

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

As many are speculating that Bizarro Harry Potter will be resuscitated by Jack and/or Juliet, I'll go in a different direction and predict that island juju saves him (in the form of Richard Alpert or Jacob or maybe his dead mummy).

Big Ben did tell Jack that he was "born" on the island. Maybe he meant re-born.

#160. Posted by: Clementine at March 26, 2009 7:37 PM

@154/pebspostal: "Eloise Hawking ... did tell him the only thing important he would do in his life would be to push a button every 108 minutes. If that is true, I don't see his visions serving a true purpose."

Don't forget that Desmond's button-pushing for all that time resulted in 815 arriving to the island. His subsequent button-pushing, and eventual purple-sky/Swan implosion/failsafe key-turning when Locke stopped the button-pushing, invoked his ability to have the visions. The visions/consciousness time-travel then brought him to Daniel (and Penny!), as well as the freighter to the island, via Charlie's disabling of the Looking Glass jamming (only possible because of the visions). That in turn led to the FDW turning by both Ben and Locke. That led to all that has followed this season, including HP Ben being shot ...

So you see, "the only thing important he would do in his life would be to push a button every 108 minutes." Q.E.D.

#161. Posted by: ealgumby at March 26, 2009 8:15 PM

So I rewatched it and realized that Sayid went through a major character arc in this episode. The first flashback of when he was a child till the one where he was killing people for Ben displayed the fact that he's been following instuctions blindly since he was a child. They weren't only trying to say that he was a killer... they were saying he blindly obeyed orders without a question because that's how he grew up. When Sawyer asked him if he would follow his story or roll on his own, Sayid said he would be on his own because he has finally decided to change. He doesn't just want to stop killing, he wants to be his own person and stop following others. This episode wasn't simply about Sayid's past and how he's been killing since forever. It's about the flaw in his personality that refuses to let him change into a man who does things for his own reasons rather than others. He killed the chicken and followed all of his father's rules. He tortured and killed when because that's what his job in the military entailed. He killed people just because Ben, a compulsive liar, told him to. It was time for him to stop following other people's versions of his story and start writing his own pages for himself. This wasn't about him being a killer alone, it was about him being unable to change everything he's ever been.

#162. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 26, 2009 8:56 PM

If (probably when) Ben survives via Kate/Jack or mystical means (first thought that should've gone through my head when Sayid did not administer the coup de grâce shot to little Ben's!), what does this mean?

Clearly, HP Ben (hereafter referred to as HPB) heard Sayid talk to Jin, and acknowledge each other peacefully ... at least Jin's cover is now blown (but only to HPB, who likely will not share the info with Horace, et al). That will link Jin directly to Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, and Daniel ... so their cover will also be shot to hell. HPB also heard Sayid mention "Sawyer" ... don't think it'll be too hard for bright HPB to guess who that is, and begin blackmailing Saywer, as head of security! It also won't take long for HPB to link Hurley, Jack, and Kate to the rest of the crew.

Hence "the list" ... based upon what Sayid said when drugged (and probably some inside info from RA later on), he'll figure out that the bunch of them are going to arrive at some point in the future. He just doesn't know exactly when ...

He also will learn from the Sayid interrogation that all the Dharma peeps are destined to die ... that knowledge could be the trigger for "the purge" (plus the sweet revenge for him in offing Roger).

All that remains for big Ben to do, is bide his time (as HPB said he was already skilled at!) until that unknown moment in the future when the Losties arrive on the island. He will be quite prepared ... he even knows he will eventually tell Sayid that he's a natural killer!

What remains to be seen is exactly how HPB will make his escape to the Others, and how Widmore fits in (probably an up-and-coming Other leader-to-be in the '77 timeframe), and how Ben eventually will screw him over for the top island leadership spot (aside from RA and Jacob, of course).

I'm also intrigued by how Hydra Ben will fit in (let alone Locke/Sun/Frank). Somehow, the pattern of "looping" needs to be broken, but only when properly "course corrected."

I believe they are doomed to repeat these events over and over until properly "course corrected" ... if not, then the final "course correction" itself is to repeat the loop, and try again.

I think Eloise, et al (who exactly?) are aware of this, and have knowledge that the events must be tweaked somehow with each subsequent try, until things are set just right. That's how Hawking knows the importance of Desmond's button-pushing.

Not sure of the mechanism yet, but there are still a lot of epis left to explain it all ...

Somehow, Daniel has yet to play an important part, but probably not for the better. Someone (plural?) else is/are eventually going to be instrumental in making it all copacetic. JMHO.

Starting to like the Bernard/Rose angle as Adam/Eve ... perhaps, at some point, they embrace Ben with love, as BEMH/66 suggested above, and end the cycle.

That would be unexpected, and very cool IMO ... gotta go with the prospect of pure kindness winning in the end ... and who else personifies that?

#163. Posted by: ealgumby at March 26, 2009 8:57 PM

@162/ilovebenjaminlinusxx: "They weren't only trying to say that he was a killer... they were saying he blindly obeyed orders without a question because that's how he grew up. ... This episode wasn't simply about Sayid's past and how he's been killing since forever. It's about the flaw in his personality that refuses to let him change into a man who does things for his own reasons rather than others. ... This wasn't about him being a killer alone, it was about him being unable to change everything he's ever been."

Agree and disagree ... his father did not tell HIM to kill the chicken, he told his brother. Sayid did it because he could, and his brother could not ... not because "he blindly obeyed orders."

I do agree with your assessment that he's done things (i.e., killing) for others though, rather than himself. His conversation with Ilana at the bar was instructive ... he has but one natural skill, killing, and people tend to always return to what they do best. So this WAS about him being a killer, at some level. That said, I also agree that this epi "was about him being unable to change everything he's ever been."

What is that, exactly? Someone with the natural ability to kill for others, rather than himself. And he did (or tried, most likely) again, by shooting HPB ... less for himself, than for the other Losties, et al. He saw his "mission" in life as removing Ben, who would cause so much pain and suffering to other people in the future should he live. He didn't shoot little Ben for himself, or because he was told to ... once again, acted on behalf of others' needs to do what they could not bring themselves to do.

Just as he had done as a child for his brother ...

#164. Posted by: ealgumby at March 26, 2009 9:17 PM

Congrats Mac, on the new addition!

Great review, this episode did raise a lot of questions. Did Little Ben die? If so does he resurrect? Does the Island course correct and someone else causes the purge? Or did he survive? Maybe he has a notebook tucked inside his shirt!

Can a bounty hunter just pick up a person and cart them off to Guam on a passenger plane when there are no charges in Guam against the person? Granted my knowledge of real life bounty hunters is limited to watching Dog (and seeing him at the mall in his down time), but wouldn't Sayid have to be extradited to Guam or have fled Guam while on bail there for a bounty hunter to get him on the plane? If Sayid didn't want to be on that flight, couldn't he have told the airline authorities he was being kidnapped and gone into federal custody when he crimes were revealed?
Comments on all y'all's comments to follow...

#165. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 26, 2009 9:45 PM

@ Mac: Sayid's on-island truth serum scene didn't work for me because: 1. the serum administrator was Larry from "Newhart,"

LOL! When he came out of the tent I expected him to say "My name is Larry, and this is my brother Darryl, and this is my other brother Darryl"

#166. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 26, 2009 10:12 PM

In the first season, a number of crash survivors were kidnapped by the others. Was there ever an explanation as to what happened to these people? I remember them being referred to by the Others as the "good people"? Did they observe Sawyer and Kate in the bear cages? I don't remember hearing any more about them after than. One of those loose threads that I don't recall ever being explained. Would appreciate any insights you might have.

#167. Posted by: Mike at March 26, 2009 10:15 PM

I wish time travel never came into play on Lost. At first it was cool, but only when they were passing through time periods.
Now to be stuck in the 1970s?
Suppose Sayid actually does kill little Ben. Does that mean adult Ben just vanishes from existence at the site of the 316 survivors?
Obviously, there's no correct explanation because this isn't real, but WTF? I'm getting close to just watching the show.

#168. Posted by: 74 at March 26, 2009 10:26 PM

Congratulations Mac....Impressed that you were able to get out the review - and as awesome as always.

Noticed many of you have commented that Bed said, "I hated him" in the cell before freeing Sayid - in reference to his father. I thought that was what he said also - but upon a replay, I am convinced he actually said, "I hate it here."

#169. Posted by: WolfMom61 at March 26, 2009 10:35 PM

I dinstinctly heard Ben say one of the following:
→ 123. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

LOL!!!!!

#170. Posted by: berkyo at March 26, 2009 11:19 PM

Thank You TPTB!

I'm extremely happy that Sayid shot Lil Ben because it will finally resolve the issue of whether or not the future can be changed.

To those of you who have been arguing all season a combination of the future can be changed and/or the characters are not predestined to their fate, now is your moment in the sun.

If Lil Ben is dead, everything- and I mean everything- has been changed. The last season and a half will have to revolve around the implications of his death and how it has invalidated the first four and a half seasons of the series.

If, like me, you believe that the characters are destined to walk a predetermined path, and that time travel serves only one purpose- to place them at the right times in the right places so that the entire fabric of the future unwinds just right- then Ben will not die, and the very act of Sayid shooting him will help place him on his path to becoming the head of the Others.

We shall see very soon....

#171. Posted by: Mizzed at March 26, 2009 11:21 PM

→ 139. Posted by: ransomjackson

Potato salad is much better with Miracle whip than Mayo.

#172. Posted by: berkyo at March 26, 2009 11:26 PM

Big Ben did tell Jack that he was "born" on the island. Maybe he meant re-born.
→ 160. Posted by: Clementine

I like this.

#173. Posted by: berkyo at March 26, 2009 11:45 PM

@72 lardiea: "It seems like substitutions are allowed on the island. If Ben's dad was in the burning bus, his father is still dead in the bus and because of him. The principle is the same although the details are slightly different. It reminds me of a post last week talking about changing lanes on the highway. The direction you're going is the same regardleess of the lane you are in."

Roger workman could not have been in the burning bus because we already know he died and was left in the van in the jungle. If he was in the burning van, then Hurley wouldn't have found him in the van in the jungle, because the van would have no reason to have been left in the jungle. This means that Hurley never would have found, or fixed, the van. This means that he wouldn't have been able to use it to rescue Sayid, Bernard and Jin on the beach when they stayed behind to blow up the Others.

This is a perfect example of the need to understand that "whatever happened, happened." We just have to accept that the events we are seeing unfold now INITIALLY did happen this way -- we just didn't see it happen. So young Ben WILL NOT die, because, well, he is around in the future we have already witnessed. I'm not sure how they'll explain the numbers coming through on the plane's radio, but I'm sure we will find out. Maybe someone, sometime between 2005 (rescue time) and 2007/2008 (current time) went BACK to the radio and re-recorded the numbers to be broadcast again. Who or why, I don't know, but as I said, TPTB made a point of having us hear the numbers again, so hopefully they will give us an explaination as to why...

#174. Posted by: Stocky at March 27, 2009 12:37 AM

RE: 160. Clementine

GREAT CALL about Ben having previously said that he was born on the island. I remember now how that was a big point of confusion when they showed the scene of Ben being born 'Outside Portland'.

#175. Posted by: MadamIm at March 27, 2009 3:34 AM

What does HPB stand for? I know the B stands for Ben, but no idea what this HP is for.

#176. Posted by: BTLY at March 27, 2009 8:10 AM

The thing I am having the most difficulty with is this: "What happened, happened." So if that is so, why is there such an effort to correct what happened?

What am I missing? If it happened, then wouldn't efforts to manipulate events to prevent it from happening be futile?

Or perhaps something was supposed to happen and didn't happen. OK...that is a little easier to grasp, though I don't know why it is easier to grasp.

Is "course correction" a spontaneous phenomenon? Are the people hoping to create an environment which they believe is conducive to what they think is the desired outcome?

I am flummoxed. Help!

#177. Posted by: undaunted at March 27, 2009 8:21 AM

Also flummoxed. Can someone explain how, if whatever happened happened, Sayid and Sawyer, and probably also Kate, Jack, Hurley and Jin, would not have recognized 2004 Ben as being the boy Ben from the 1970s? If they met him in the 1970s, wouldn't they have known him in 2004? It's not a one-way street, as someone pointed out earlier. If future Ben knows Sayid, then future Sayid knows Ben. And if all this Losties-in-the-70s routine already happened, then the first 4 seasons make absolutely no sense. They would know about the hatch, they would know about the barracks, etc, etc. These particular events in the 70s did not already happen.....Or maybe the events we saw in 2004 didn't happen. ARRRGGGH! Too early in the day for nosebleeds!

HPB is Harry Potter Ben, I think.

#178. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 27, 2009 8:52 AM

→ 163. Posted by: ealgumby at March 26, 2009 8:57 PM
"If (probably when) Ben survives via Kate/Jack or mystical means (first thought that should've gone through my head when Sayid did not administer the coup de grâce shot to little Ben's!), what does this mean?"


***Finally someone references a point that has been bothering me. Why didn't Sayid administer the "coup de grace" shot to HPB?

An experienced, professional killer and torturer with a clear purpose/mission to wipe out someone who he has accused of "nothing short of genocide" and he shoots once and runs? Where was the double tap? How about at least a pulse check? Or a sliver of glass to the base of the brain (oops I think that is a Heroes thing...) What is Sayid's plan now? Run into the jungle and what find the radio tower and call for help? Come on Sayid we need thinking if we are going to get out of this loop we're all in...

#179. Posted by: add it up at March 27, 2009 8:55 AM

Here's a thought. Couldn't killing little Ben be a course correction? We know that Ben tricked Widmore who was the leader of the Others off the island, became the Leader of the Others, and initiated the purge.
What if the island/fate has been trying to kill Ben ever since then but has been unsuccessful (aka the tumor, the frieghtor). Now fate has finally outsmarted Ben by allowing him to think he's found a way back to the island provided he can get everyone to come back (including Sayid) which he does. However, in doing so he has unwittingly delivered his killer (who finally sees his purpose) to the Island back in 1977. And Sayid finally takes care of Ben for good.
You see Ben was always supposed to die before he tricked Widmore off the Island but he has been 2 steps ahead of fate and therefore cheating his own death ever since (see Charlie). Therefore, fate has finally found a way to take care of him as it should have happened in the original time line. It does this by sending someone who is the ultimate killing machine back in time to kill Ben as a kid.
The problem with predesination is that we don't know what path is the correct path for the charaters. Only one person has seen his/her correct path and that is Desmond. The Variable?

#180. Posted by: redshirtinwisconsin at March 27, 2009 9:17 AM

#171. Mizzed (my favorite poster) wrote:
"If Lil Ben is dead, everything- and I mean everything- has been changed. The last season and a half will have to revolve around the implications of his death and how it has invalidated the first four and a half seasons of the series."

Golly, not bad for a character that was originally only supposed to appear in three episodes....(smile)

#181. Posted by: Glostover at March 27, 2009 9:52 AM

Thought it was a decent episode at best.

Where is john Locke? I believe its been three episodes since we have seen him!!

#182. Posted by: Michaelmvp at March 27, 2009 10:08 AM

@153 lost2theworld asked:

>Where is the easiest place to find the Darlton podcasts?

All the official ABC Lost podcasts, audio and video, are available here:

http://tinyurl.com/2469cq

The audio podcasts are exclusively Darlton. The video podcasts feature many members of cast and crew.


Explore the site and you can also find:

o Lost Untangled - humorous recaps

o Lost Missing Pieces - originally distributed as Mobisodes - mini-episodes on mobile phones

o Full episode replays and numerous clips and previews

#183. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 27, 2009 10:15 AM

Too bad they set an end date for Lost. It would raise hopes that lil ben (or ben as opposed to Ben=Big Ben) really was killed.
If ben was really dead, everything would change and they could go back and show us how events we've seen transpire in the first 4 seasons would have happened without him. It could potentially have made the series endless as we could go back see every possible outcome or timeline without ever knowing which was the real/correct one. Actually they would all be just as real or valid since they all technically happened. However with an end date, I think its safe to say that wont happen and a game changer like ben dying would be out of the question...

#184. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 27, 2009 10:16 AM

→ 178. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 27, 2009 8:52 AM
"If they met him in the 1970s, wouldn't they have known him in 2004?"

2007!Sayid, 2007!Hurley, 2007!Jack, and 2007!Kate only just went back to the 1970's. The 1970's versions of those characters (whatever age they were in 1977) are still running around in the outside world, doing whatever they were doing in 1977 (or aren't even born yet, perhaps). When they grow up and crash on the island in 2004, they do not already know what happened to the 2007 versions of themselves, because they haven't lived it yet. But 1970's child Ben does know them and remember their 2007 versions later on in 2004 when they crash. From now on, 2007!Jack/Kate/Hurley/Sayid will know what happened in the 1970's but there is no way they could have known it until they lived it (in 2007 when they went back).

#185. Posted by: Shanna at March 27, 2009 10:18 AM

@155 sly asked:

>This is totally off topic but remember way back in Season 1 (I think) when they show someone listening in on a dharma training class? Any thoughts on that now?

Are you thinking of the video that came out of the endgame of "The Lost Experience"? (ARG conducted between seasons 2 and 3.) You can see it by swithing over to "The Lost Experience Explained" in this same blog.

It's still a bone of contention among fans just how much reliance to place on out-of-show extras like this. One thing for sure learned from the video is that Dharma is a ruthless and callous organization, and not the hippy-scientists portrayed in their 'orientation' videos.

#186. Posted by: Cecil at March 27, 2009 10:25 AM

@157 ilovebenjaminlinusxx exulted:

>HURLEY HAS MY JOB!!!!!

>For all that do not know what I am talking about, the Dharma Initiative recruited me as a Cook. Well, now Hugo is a Chef. Funny huh? =]

Oh jeez, some people have all the luck. I get to hang around with a shrew like Harper Stanhope in the Psychology Department.

But of course, both of these are only if we can find a way bach to 1974. Maybe we're their replacements?

#187. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 27, 2009 10:31 AM

#148@gumbo: ....and we all know how persuasive jack bauer can be.

i'm in agreement with ealgumby and add it up, sayid is a professional assassin and should definitely know how to deliver a kill shot and to make sure the target is dead..... why didnt he shoot him in the head or as suggest, more than once?

#188. Posted by: tiffani at March 27, 2009 10:59 AM

The thing I am having the most difficulty with is this: "What happened, happened." So if that is so, why is there such an effort to correct what happened?What am I missing? If it happened, then wouldn't efforts to manipulate events to prevent it from happening be futile?→ 177. Posted by: undaunted

Ex-ac-i-tally what I have been trying to say. - with too many words. There musty have been a mistake? something went wrong and SOMEBODY changed something that should not have been. If thay go back and find that event and change it. Then the future must change too.

#189. Posted by: berkyo at March 27, 2009 11:05 AM

So if this was the 70's when was the 9mm gun invented? I thought it was brought to market in the 80's. Where did Gin get his?

#190. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at March 27, 2009 11:10 AM

And if all this Losties-in-the-70s routine already happened, then the first 4 seasons make absolutely no sense. They would know about the hatch, they would know about the barracks, etc, etc. These particular events in the 70s did not already happen.....Or maybe the events we saw in 2004 didn't happen.→ 178. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

Right on. Something is fishy. I am so glad some people are beginning to see what I have been saying. I don't understand it and make guesses as to what it is ( and could be totally wrong) but you can't go back in time and not change something. And that would change the future. There must be a trick to this. Maybe it only happens on the island because the island is always moving. In space and maybe time too?

#191. Posted by: berkyo at March 27, 2009 11:10 AM

From now on, 2007!Jack/Kate/Hurley/Sayid will know what happened in the 1970's but there is no way they could have known it until they lived it (in 2007 when they went back).185. Posted by: Shanna

I have to think about this. A lot. i think it is valid. Desmond in 2007 did not remember meeting Faraday in 2004 until Faraday in 2007 went back to Desmond 2004 and told Desmond 2004 to remember it.

THEN Desmond 2007 wakes up and remembers it.

I don't think this changes that fact that they do change the past by being there though. They just won't remember it until they catch up with themselves.

#192. Posted by: berkyo at March 27, 2009 11:23 AM

@185 - Shanna

Please do NOT post anymore posts like this. I can barely see my monitor as it is covered with blood... I actually think my mind exploded this time, not merely a nose bleed.

Gee... thanks...

#193. Posted by: BunnyLover at March 27, 2009 11:36 AM

In 2007 Ben knew where the 3 boats were on the Hydra Island. The time-line happened the way it was supposed to happen in the 70s--- that is the proof on that one.

Little Ben will probably be healed by Juliet and get a crush on her.... all Bus Said before.

#194. Posted by: Bus Said at March 27, 2009 11:40 AM

@185. Posted by: Shanna
But my point is why would 2004 Ben remember them from 1977 and they wouldn't remember him? If they don't know it til they lived it, then Ben wouldn't know it til they lived it.

The only theory I can come up with is that maybe there's some link we're missing between actual time traveling and consciousness traveling. If Ben were able to consciousness travel back and forth between 1977 to 2004, then I could see how Ben in Present 1.0 would know the Losties from Past 2.0 because his 2004 mind is able to flash back to 1977 and see how the past is relived.

#195. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 27, 2009 11:47 AM

@178 Scooby-Dude: "Also flummoxed. Can someone explain how, if whatever happened happened, Sayid and Sawyer, and probably also Kate, Jack, Hurley and Jin, would not have recognized 2004 Ben as being the boy Ben from the 1970s? If they met him in the 1970s, wouldn't they have known him in 2004? It's not a one-way street, as someone pointed out earlier. If future Ben knows Sayid, then future Sayid knows Ben."

Even though the Oceanic survivors may be jumping around in time, THEIR progression in time is still forward with respect to their own lives. To use Faraday's metaphor, think of time as a record spinning on a turntable. The record starts spinning, and the needle, if left uninterrupted, will only move in one direction -- forward. It will follow a linear path until it reaches the end of the record. Try to imagine this as the normal progression of time. The recording cannot be changed.

Now try to imagine the INWARD progression of the needle. When looked at from an overhead view, the needle doesn't seem to follow the progression of time (following the tracks on the record). It simply seems to move from the outside of the record to the inside. But this progression is changeable. You can lift up the stylus, move it backwards or forwards, to change its location on the record (location in time), however once placed back down it is still moving inward on the record, even though it may be playing a track that has already been played before.

As I mentioned above, the record in this metaphor is the normal progression of time, from beginning to end. The needle and stylus are the Oceanic survivors. You can pick up the survivors (needle) and put them anywhere in time (on the record), but the Survivors (needle) themselves are always in their own present, forwardly-moving time. The needle is only playing back the events as they have previously been recorded. But when looked at from the perspective of the record, one minute the needle will be there, playing a track, and the next it could be gone, playing another track farther along on the album.

The trick to understanding "whatever happened, happened" is to realize that there are three different perspectives here. The perspective of time (the record), the perspective of the Survivors (the needle on the record), and the perspective of ourselves, outsiders watching both the record spinning AND the needle moving at the same time. Although for the most part, as we are watching the show, we are observing things happening from the perspective of the survivors (needle). However, to fully grasp the fact that "whatever happened, happened," you also have to be able to see things happening from the perspective of the forward progression of time (the record).

With respect to Ben and Sayid specifically, older Ben could remember Sayid in the future because Sayid has already been in the time period when Ben was young -- it is already a part of Ben's past (just like Desmond "remembering" his conversation with Faraday"). But Sayid would not remember it in the future because there is no future Sayid. Sayid himself is still moving forward in his own life, even though he has been sent back to a different time. We haven't seen anything "farther-forward" in time than the Survivors going back to the 70's, because their future is unknown us, even though the events they are currently living through are known to us.

Hope this helps everyone, and I'm sorry if I only helped to confuse you further..

#196. Posted by: Stocky at March 27, 2009 12:05 PM

→ 195. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 27, 2009 11:47 AM

Ben meets the Losties in 1977 when he is little ben and he grows up and would still remember in 2004 the people he met as a boy.
The Losties in 2004 would not remember Ben in 2004 as they had not met him yet. They had lived their lives normally until coming to the island and meeting the adult Ben. It was not until after meeting adult Ben that they went back in time to meet little ben. The Losties we are seeing in 1977 are really from 2007, whereas the ben we see in 1977 is actually from 1977.

So the Ben in 2004 the Losties met remembered meeting them when he was a boy. But for the Losties in 2004 they had not met him yet.

#197. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 27, 2009 12:13 PM

I call "dibs" on Penny once Des is out of the picture..........

#198. Posted by: Len at March 27, 2009 12:43 PM

Is this story leading us to the point where time has changed: to the point that Desmond does not use the key in the Swan, that causes a detonation instead of a discharge...and therefore destroys the island and all inhabitants....

#199. Posted by: Len at March 27, 2009 1:15 PM

My take on the time travel thing:
Time travel does not exist, because if it did we would all know about it.
And since we know that we can't time travel, time travel does not exist.

It's like the difference between humans and non-humans: Non humans 'know', and humans 'know that we know'.

#200. Posted by: Len at March 27, 2009 2:03 PM

@Bunnylover - Sorry about the nosebleed! :)

→ 196. Posted by: Stocky AND
→ 197. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes

Both of you explained what I meant to explain much better than I managed to do. :) And it's crucial to remember that Desmond is different - even Daniel recognizes that the rules don't exactly apply to him. The Losties are not able to do the same consciousness-traveling that he has done, among other things.

#201. Posted by: Shanna at March 27, 2009 2:04 PM

Numbers playing on the plane radio. This still bothers me because I could not here the full sequence. Did anyone hear all the numbers, could one of the numbers have changed?

#202. Posted by: steve at March 27, 2009 2:06 PM

my three cents: two backstories that would probably make this whole senario make a lot more sense, not completely, but a little more; charles widmore and richard alpert's.

just my opinion, feel free to agree or disagree.

everyone have a good weekend!!

#203. Posted by: tiffani at March 27, 2009 2:24 PM

Is it wrong.......

that when my six year old got a nosebleed this afternoon, the first thing I thought of is that he'd been consciousness traveling. Where's the tissues?!?

#204. Posted by: ChiTownTeach at March 27, 2009 2:37 PM

@ Clementine: Ya....May 16th is the big date. What's completely mind-blowing is that we're going to Guam for our honeymoon.....NOT!

#205. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at March 27, 2009 2:46 PM

Thanks, Crispy and Stocky. Perspective and backwards records, I'll have to contemplate that some more (perhaps after a glass or two of MacCutcheon's). Maybe the whispers are saying "Paul is dead."

By the way, I think Sayid gets off the island and becomes an assassin for Mr. Cluck's Chicken Shack.

#206. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at March 27, 2009 3:08 PM

@160: Clementine - I do like the idea that Ben was referring to being "re-born" when he said he was born on the island. At the same time, my prevailing opinion of Ben is that you can tell he's lying because his lips are moving.

@178: Scooby-Dude - You're confusing occurrences in a time period on the show with things occurring in a linear fashion in reference to actual time. The Losties in the '77 are there but only in reference to the current time.

Think of it this way - HP Ben is a child in the 70's. He hasn't yet lived to where he will grow up to be the meanie we all know and hate/love(ilblxx). Anything that happens to him will carry forward through time with him because he's the child that will become the future person.

Now, let's jump away for a moment and consider the situation of Desmond. He traveled backward in time with his mind only, which put him in a position where he physically inhabited his body in the past. In this case, anything he did while he inhabited his body in the past directly affected his past and the body that he was inhabiting. In this case, living through the things the Losties are currently living through would allow him to theoretically retain those memories because that body, which is himself, experienced those events.

Now let's jump back to the 1977 situation and the Losties that are there inhabiting the island. This is a separate body that has traveled back in time. Those memories are happening to the separate body that traveled backward in time, not to the body that will grow up to become them in the future. So whatever they experience with their "future" bodies will not have anything to do with their "present" bodies that exist somewhere off-island. If they do something to their past selves with their "future" bodies sitting in the past, their past selves and thus their "future" bodies would remember the incident. But otherwise you're really talking about two different people, even though their the same person from two different time periods.

#207. Posted by: LostedIt at March 27, 2009 3:10 PM

@191: berkyo - I have to be honest, I'm going with the fact that Ben doesn't die here in this episode's activities. You're 100% correct if he dies. Then nothing in the past 4 and 1/2 seasons happened as it did and everything is different. There's nothing in the world that would annoy me more than them finding a way to let him die and substitute him with another person via course correction. I'd hope to want to still keep watching Lost but I'd likely be so disheartened as to not want to any more.

That being said, prevalent opinion seems to be that Ben won't die and they'll find a way for Juliet and/or Jack to save him. I've already voiced my personal displeasure for that as well, but it's better than the alternative described above. Either result makes me unhappy with the turn of events in general, but doesn't change the fact that things happening to the Losties who came back in time from 2007-ish has nothing to do with the Losties as they really existed elsewhere in the world in their 1977 lives. You really need to look at it as separate bodies - their 1977 bodies as youngsters that never traveled through times and their 2007 bodies that traveled back in time and currently reside in 1977. What happens to one of those bodies has nothing to do with the other one. They are separate and distinct. Once you understand and accept that as how things are being played out within Lost a lot of things make sense, at least in terms of the Lost show and the characters on the show.

#208. Posted by: LostedIt at March 27, 2009 3:21 PM

re: Time travel confusion

I'm kinda confused at the confusion here.

As far as we know, Desmond is the only "wild card" when it comes to time travel. This likely has to do with his lengthy exposure at the Swan, combined with his proximity to ground zero when he turned the fail safe key. There could be more reasons as to why he is special, and I assume they will elaborate on this once his character returns to the island (assuming that this will happen at some point).

As far as we know, no one else has been able to mentally zap back and forth in time in the way that he was able to.

2004 crash victims would have no knowledge on anything from the 70's, because it has not happened to them yet.

Ben and the 2004 "Others" might very well remember the 1970 losties, provided that they survived the "Purge". In fact, this could possible explain why the Others were so mysterious with their disguises initially - they did not want to pollute the time line?

The Temple could very well contain people that have isolated themselves there, for the specific purpose of not interfering in the time twisted events.

I'm willing to bet the farm that young Ben will survive his gun shot wound, and that there WILL NOT be some impostor taking his place as an adult. The more important question is whether Ben remembers the losties from his past when he meets them as Henry Gale. When he interacts with Sayid, does he remember that this is the man who shot him as a youth?

The writers could approach this in various directions - can't wait to see how they go about it!

#209. Posted by: shikotee at March 27, 2009 3:23 PM

@shikotee:

My guess - the writers completely ignore the issue (Ben;s possible death) in the next 1-2-3 episodes before returning to it down the line.

#210. Posted by: Cecil at March 27, 2009 3:27 PM

I can just see the scene next epi...HPB is brought in hanging on to life and they are forced to go get Jack to "fix him" and the drama when Jack thinks about what it would mean to let him die. Oh...the dilemma. That could last a whole epi.

#211. Posted by: jms at March 27, 2009 3:40 PM

Ok, need clarification here:

1977 Jack lives his regular life
2004 Jack crashes on the island
2007 Jack travels back to 1977 (but this didn't happen the first time it was 1977)
They can't change the future, so Jack will still crash in 2004, but this time he has the memory of living 1977-2004 twice??

#212. Posted by: Rudy at March 27, 2009 3:51 PM

→ 212. Posted by: Rudy at March 27, 2009 3:51 PM

Basically correct, except that there is no "first time around" for the 1977 events. They only happened one time. In 1977, Jack from 2007 was really there, on the island. Jack from 1977 was also somewhere in the world, doing whatever he was doing in 1977.

So yes, he will technically have the memory of living 1977-2004 twice, assuming they are there that long. My guess is that at some point all the people who are in the "wrong time" (Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Jin, Sun, Juliet, Miles, Dan, and whoever else) will eventually foom back to the "present", or 2007/2008 on the show.

#213. Posted by: Shanna at March 27, 2009 4:09 PM

@212 Rudy asked:

>Ok, need clarification here:

>1977 Jack lives his regular life
2004 Jack crashes on the island
2007 Jack travels back to 1977 (but this didn't happen the first time it was 1977)
>They can't change the future, so Jack will still crash in 2004, but this time he has the memory of living 1977-2004 twice??

No. There is no "first time it was 1977". It only happens once. We don't really know when Jack was born but let's say, for the sake of argument it was 1960.

Jack lived through 1977 never realizing that a future version of himself was around on a spooky south sea island. Jack is 17.

In 2004 he traveled to that island and stayed for 108 days. Jack is 44

He got off the island and lived for three years back in California. jack is 47.

In 2007 or early 2008 he travelled back to the island, only to be whisked back to 1977. Jack is still 47. There are now two Jacks in 1977, one 17 in california, and one 47 on the island.

Should Jack live to reach 2004 again, and there are no more time shifts, Jack will be 74, and *that* Jack will have the memory of living 1977-2004 twice, while the other Jack, 44, will get on the plane unaware of anything.

We know this because that's what happened, and "What happened, happened." We saw it and Jack (44) saw it. We know no crazy 74-year-old man comes up to stop him from getting on the plane, becasue we 'already' saw it and that didn't happen.

#214. Posted by: Cecil at March 27, 2009 4:10 PM

#119 blew my mind. Like he did with Henry Gale

#215. Posted by: BostonSteve at March 27, 2009 4:13 PM

Er, not Sun. Sorry, she is in the correct time! Don't want to make it even more confusing than it is!

#216. Posted by: Shanna at March 27, 2009 4:14 PM

@212. Posted by: Rudy

Make some adjustments:

1977 Jack is a kid off island
2004 Jack crashes on the island
2007 Jack travels back to 1977

1977 on island Jack has no exposure to 1977 child-Jack, who is busy playing Doctor with his childhood friends....

The thing to keep in mind is that the time travel might not be done with! My guess would be that when the "incident" takes place, it will be bye bye to the 70's, and a return to either regular time, or possibly even the future....

#217. Posted by: shikotee at March 27, 2009 4:15 PM

@214: Cecil - Well put! You managed to explain concisely what I couldn't even after two or three lengthy posts.

#218. Posted by: LostedIt at March 27, 2009 4:17 PM

Ah ha! Lightbulb! I get it now. Two Jacks exist in 1977, and if we get to 2004, the two Jacks' could meet up, resulting in a paradox, which we know is a no-no.

Thank you! I feel much better now.

#219. Posted by: Rudy at March 27, 2009 4:18 PM

OK here is my take on the time travel, just to throw some more confusion into the mix.

If you go with the what happened happened theory, Sawyer, Juliet, etc. where always there in 1977 on the island, but in the time line of their life it didn't happen until after everything that happened on the Island before Ben turned the FDW.

I am trying to come up with an easy illistration of this. The way I am think of it is with different time lines, but I am not sure how well it will translate to words.

First there is a time line of events that happened. This line moves forward year to year and doesn't jump around. Whatever happened on this time line in a given spot always happened and always iin the order that the line runs. So everything that happened in 1977 always happened before things that happened in 2007.

Secondly there is a timeline for people. People can only go forward on their own time line, but their time line can jump around on the event time line (at least in the Lost World where time travel is possible). People can only remember things that happened earlier on their own time line. Without time travel a person's time line moves parallel to the event time line and there is no confussion, but when time travel comes along it gets really confussing. A number of people have asked why Sawyer and the others didn't remember meeting little Ben before when they met him originally on the Island. It is because though on the event timeline they had met him already on their time line they had not. The time travel made their timelines all curvy.

So in theory if it is true that what happened happened, if Jack/Kate/Hurly had happened upon the Dharma picture from 1977 they would have seen themselves in the picture and they problaby would have thought, how strange is that that 3 people that look just like us where in in 1977 with Dharma. Then when the ended up in 1977 they would have said, "Oh, that was us in that picture."

Oh, and to 212 who said they can't change the future, actually since their future hasn't happened yet everything do affects their future. 2004 where they crashed is no longer the future for them.

I could go on, but it would probalby just make things more confusing.

#220. Posted by: Sue at March 27, 2009 4:19 PM

In my last post, i was just guessing how old Jack would be in 1977. Looking at the other posts that reference his actual age, he'd be a teen instead of a child.

Likely still playing Doctor though....
But maybe with a Nurse!!!! ;)

#221. Posted by: shikotee at March 27, 2009 4:20 PM

I have a couple of questions on the purge. (I really need to rewatch all the episodes to see what I missed the first time.)

First of all I have seen a number of post that mention that it happened in 1992 and that is what is on the timeline at Lostpedia too. I was wondering exactly how this date was figured?

Second I know Ben had a part in the purge, but did he really initiate it like some people are saying or at least implying. Wasn't it really initiated by the Others/Hostiles and Ben just helped them bring it about. I am not saying he is less responsible if he just helped them, but it seems like if you are going with the theory that things can change, Ben living or dying won't affect if the purge happened or not if it was really the Others/Hostiles plan.

For a little bit Wednesday night I thought Sayid was going to try to kill Roger instead of Ben thinking that getting rid of the bad influence would solve the problem, but he problaby just saw Roger as proof that Ben was born bad.

#222. Posted by: Sue at March 27, 2009 4:36 PM

The confusion that exists on this blog among hard core Lost viewers can be multiplied many times over by the more casual Lost viewer who only shows up on Wednesday nights to just watch the show, and doesn't spend their off hours trying to earn their PhD in Lostpedia arcana.

The fact that the show is not told in a typical linear fashion is probably one reason why current viewership is at an all-time low.

This is also why I believe in the predestined path theory, because the alternative, with its conflicting multiple future timelines, would be virtually impossible to explain in a one hour tv show over the final remaining episodes.

Several episodes ago, I listed some examples of how we have seen the same events told from slightly different perspectives.

The best example of this is Desmond- the first time we see him on the hatch, it appears he does not recognize Jack. Two weeks later, when we see this scene played out from a different angle, it appears that he does recognize Jack.

Jack may be experiencing this encounter with Desmond for the first time in both scenarios (who is this crazy guy, and why does he look like the dude from running the stairs at the stadium?).

But we may be seeing Des from two different angles (hence the need for seeing the same scene twice)- the first time, he is experiencing these events for the first time, and he is reacting to the hatch intruders just as we experience our own lives in a linear, one step, two step fashion.

But the second time, we may be seeing time-jumping Des, the one who has already encountered Mrs. Hawking, who already has accepted his destiny, and who already knows the pivotal role Jack will play in these events.

In fact, in any "time traveling" scene, we may be watching the characters interact at different stages- some are experiencing these events for the first time, while others have the benefit of "been there, done that".

How many times have we seen the scene of the Oceanic crash from Ben's perspective? In some retellings, he appears surprised, in others, focused and determined.

Essentially, the characters are "lost" in time, looping or repeating their own cycles- but each character is at a DIFFERENT cycle in any one scene- a fact deliberately kept from the viewer.

As for the predestined controversy, the Losties do have free will- the free will to accept their predestined path (the Desmond story in a nutshell). The reason for the do-overs is created when individuals refuse to accept their destined path (such as the Oceanic 6)- events must replay or be altered until the correct path is taken.

The future is never altered- just the loop or circle that the character currently finds themselves in.

Jack defines this cycle- the refusal of destiny, the flight from the island, and finally, the acceptance and return- exactly the same path as Desmond.

This acceptance of ones role and responsibility is essentially the same as realizing a new level of awareness, or dharma, and of understanding how one fits into the greater cosmic plan, or truth.

With that awareness comes redemption and purpose- a central theme Lost comes back to again and again.

#223. Posted by: Mizzed at March 27, 2009 5:37 PM

The time travel theory is a massive red herring. Too many paradox and continuity errors to be trustworthy.
I continue to stand in the minority that the premise of the show is that the characters are already dead, and the island is Underworld Westworld, where the souls are tested before final judgment.
That is why we are getting repetitive storylines. The 316ers are getting their first pop quiz in the underworld like the 815ers did in S1E1. The 815ers who "foomed" to 1977 are not in that time, but a recreation of a "place" where their souls can be judged by a new "life and death" problems to solve and whether certain souls (Sawyer for example) can change from good to evil, or vice versa.

#224. Posted by: welh at March 27, 2009 5:47 PM

@224/welh: "I continue to stand in the minority that the premise of the show is that the characters are already dead"

Other than the fact that TPTB have repeatedly refuted that claim?

And if they're dead, why do they need surgery or get sick? Why do they get hungry, or sleepy? Most importantly, if they're being judged, how can they be randomly killed?

Where was the purpose in season 1, when Gary Troup was sucked into the propeller on the beach, Joanna died while swimming, or Artz blew up trying to retrieve the dynamite?
*****

Also, going back to my (admittedly) long-winded post in #223, at some level, this show has to live on its own merits as entertainment.

Does it really matter if there was an original sequence of events where Danielle was killed by the Smoke Monster, as long as there is a final sequence of events where Jin travels back to the past to save her?

And if Charlie may have died multiple times in the past through a series of random events, does that matter, or is the key point that in the final storyline, Des needed to keep Charlie alive long enough for him to accept his fate (geez, there's that predestined/free will thing again) and turn off the jammer?

Take virtually any sequence of events shown on Lost the last five years, substitute it for my examples in the last two paragraphs,and the end result is the same- what only matters is the outcome.

Darlton compared the show in the beginning to a road trip from NYC to LA- you know the departure point and the destination, but not necessarily the exact route. Maybe one time you go through Cleveland, another time Cincy, but at the end of the day, you still end up in LA, not San Francisco or San Diego.

#225. Posted by: Mizzed at March 27, 2009 6:25 PM

@222 Sue said:

>Second I know Ben had a part in the purge, but did he really initiate it like some people are saying or at least implying. Wasn't it really initiated by the Others/Hostiles and Ben just helped them bring it about.

Right. The only thing we know for sure is that Ben was responsible for one death in the purge - his father's.

There was some speculation earlier that he "let the Hostiles in" through the Sonic Fence of D-o-o-o-o-m, but now we know they )or anybody with a set of earplugs) could pass through it with impunity.

The majority if the killing was carried out, as far as we can tell, by Richard and the Hostiles (WWBAGNFARB).

#226. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 27, 2009 6:37 PM

On the continuing bio of Oldham, "his classic" role was that of the irrepressible E.B. Farnum on the great HBO series, DEADWOOD.

#227. Posted by: IslandHopper at March 27, 2009 6:47 PM

comments include:

ben is not dead. TPTB hinted on their podcast that sayid shooting him may the the thing that starts ben on his purging ways (well, by hinting that if you were to try to kill hitler when he was 12, maybe you'd find out that you just caused him to want to do the holocaust).

lame lame lame that sawyer couldn't come up with anything better to convince sayid that he needs to pretend to be a defecting hostile. sawyer is the mini master of the con (ben in the big master of the con), the mini master of making people want to do what you want them to do without them realize. and the best convincing he could give sayid was, "well, i've got a good life here so don't you go and ruin it"???? He could have just said to sayid, "well, if you don't, then we have to do a whole formal thing with the hostiles to return to you to them, and then the hostiles will realize you're not one of them, and then all will go to hell." maybe that would have worked better? pretty much ANYTHING would have worked better.

second point of lameness:
the darma folk REALLY want to kill sayid before they've had a chance to try the truth serum one more time at a half dropper? They don't even want to try it, just kill him straight away? suuuuure. that makes sense.

dude, i like hurley as a chef. makes me smile. I bet he's good at it too... two dipping sauces for the ham? damn!

Anyone else wondering if sawyer juliet jin and miles know a lot of background info that they've not told us yet? for example, don't you think they would have more knowledge of the smoke monster by now? and of the island's history? feels annoying that the writers are neglecting that.

and why is miles still here? what's his purpose? is he coming back or are the writers gonna forget about hiM?

#228. Posted by: klughs at March 27, 2009 6:51 PM

@#7 - I<Bbenlinus...

That's because Kate is a stupid selfish bitch and she deserves to be with Jack and his heavy breathing, 'I gotta fix it' attitude.

:)

#229. Posted by: Ohsolost at March 27, 2009 6:52 PM

@222 mizzed opined:

>The fact that the show is not told in a typical linear fashion is probably one reason why current viewership is at an all-time low.

More likely the decline is an inevitable result of the story process.

Lost is a tightly integrated story with parts five years apart meshing together in ways that we never anticipated at the time.

That's what makes continued viewership by us fanatics so rewarding - seeing the wheels mesh and the cogs turn.

At the same time, it makes it really difficult to come in in the middle of. Your regular episodic television show basically consists of independent episodes - you don't have to have seen one to appreciate the others, at lest not once you've got the basic thems down - A hired gun in the old west, say (Paladin) - a street smart former convict turned private investigator (The Rockford Files) - a space ship roaming a new world per week (Star Trek and all the franchises).

Episodic television can be good or bad, depending on the quality of the writing - but it's accessible, easily.

There's attrition in any series, but if its easy to get into the series attracts new watchers to make up for the atrition.

Lost is *not* easy for a newcomer to get into. For a comic look at this problem, see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuFk1KKdNFw

Lord knows, the writers/producers try to ameliorate the problem:

o Any number of "Season X in Y minutes" videos that are actually prety good summaries

o Clip shows allow folks to catch up every so often

o Full seasons available on DVD

o Ability to watch all the back eps for free on network website

Yet every one of these things takes some effort, and how's the new viewer to know it's worth it (one answer - we tell them).

So there's this basic conundrum - "Lost" is a TV show that makes you *think* when most people watch TV precisely *not* to think.

The same thing that makes it a great show also limits its audience.

Enjoy it while we can, and be glad it attracted enough viewers to be given this shot.

#230. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 27, 2009 7:17 PM

→ 230. Posted by: Cecil Rose
Enjoy it while we can, and be glad it attracted enough viewers to be given this shot.
------------------------
Amen Cecil.

The last Network show I followed was Twin Peaks. And was preceded in the time slot by a double bingo bonus series, "China Beach" (On Saturdays, if I remember right).

#231. Posted by: IslandHopper at March 27, 2009 7:32 PM

@ 183. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Thanks for the info Cecil! I've been to abc.com many times but never listened to just the audio podcasts.

#232. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 27, 2009 7:59 PM

Do you guys think it is significant that Lil Ben and Present Day Ben are both unconscious right now? Lil Ben just having been shot and Big Ben knocked out by Sun and still lying in the recovery room when Locke sees him...Could that mean something?

#233. Posted by: Jamal Aziz at March 27, 2009 8:07 PM

I may be mistaken...but did Sayid say he was on oceanic flight 816 NOT 815 while under the influence at the teepee?

#234. Posted by: misschriss at March 27, 2009 8:30 PM

Once you understand and accept that as how things are being played out within Lost a lot of things make sense, at least in terms of the Lost show and the characters on the show.→ 208. Posted by: LostedIt

Thanks for the help. I think I understand the reason why HPBen could remember Juliette but she would have had no memory of him when she comes to the island.
I also do realize that Ben is probably not dead. I listened to the podcast today and D and C both said Ben had been shot. They did not say killed. though they did say talk about how confusing the rule of time is If Faraday is correct. not those words but similar. And we will all find out soon what is going on.
Add to that the fact that I am often wrong ;).

But I have always had the feeling that the first four seasons were being seen not for the first time. Just the things that characters say. I still think so.

4444444444444444444444444444444444
→ 214. Posted by: Cecil

Good job Cecil. Perfectly clear. This is very hard to write about.

88888888888888888888888888888888888

..Could that mean something?→ 233. Posted by: Jamal

This is Lost. Of course it could.

1515151515151515151515151515151515

→ 223. Posted by: Mizzed

You make so much sense. I recently watched the hatch opening scene and had that feeling you describe. and the Loop is probably what I am feeling. that they have done/said/been here before. And I agree with as long as the result is the same it doesn't matter how they got there. I still think that even small changes in how they got there would be a time change though. You don't know what results may change if you take a different route to work. On route you sit in traffic and the other route you get creamed by a truck. maybe that's why it loops. do it until it is correct.

Lost is time is good.

And to cause the loop to start, there must be a terrible time change one that really breaks the laws. Else why are they trying to fix it?

#235. Posted by: berkyo at March 27, 2009 9:03 PM

OMG ben killed locke
OMG sayid killed ben
OMG juliet killed kate,.... no san slow down, maybe next episode.

#236. Posted by: san at March 27, 2009 9:07 PM

@162 - I<Bbenlinus

Wow, that is very insightful.

@196 - Stocky & 197 Crispy

Great explanation.

Re: What happened, happened - that is what Daniel said, but how reliable is it, could he not have been trying to keep them from trying to change the future/present? I think if time travel were possible, then it would be inevitable that traveling to the past would have the potential to alter events albeit in a completely unpredictable fashion. Is that thunder I hear?

#237. Posted by: Ohsolost at March 27, 2009 9:33 PM

@ 209. shikotee:

I totally agree about the confusion on the confusion! The sheer number of people on this board who are unable to grasp even the simplest time travel concepts is giving me a head ache.

Whatever happened happened. This means in the objective time line. Not in the Losties individual time lines. Just because Jack is in 1977 as a forty-ish year old, this does not mean that child Jack (also in 1977, but in LA)now knows the same things. Let's say Jack was born in 1966 (when Matthew Fox was born). His life progresses normally until the age of 38/39, when he crash lands on the Island. 108 or so days later he is rescued by Penny Widmore. Life is still linear for Jack. 3 years pass, Jack is now 41/2 in 2008 He gets on a plane and ends up in 1977. He's still 41/2, not 11. 41/2 year old Jack remembers what will happen in the future, because it is his past. 38/39 year old Jack does not know what happened in the past, because it is his future.

Although shikotee, I do have to disagree. Desmond is not the only one we saw travel in his own consciousness. There was first Eloise the rat, and then Minkowski.

BTW, if you haven;t read up on the works of Hermann Minkowski, you really should. From the wiki:

By 1907 Minkowski realized that the special theory of relativity, introduced by Einstein in 1905 and based on previous work of Lorentz and Poincaré, could be best understood in a four dimensional space, since known as "Minkowski spacetime", in which the time and space are not separated entities but intermingled in a four dimensional space-time, and in which the Lorentz geometry of special relativity can be nicely represented. The beginning part of his address[2] delivered at the 80th Assembly of German Natural Scientists and Physicians (September 21, 1908) is now famous:

#238. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 27, 2009 9:49 PM

The views of space and time which I wish to lay before you have sprung from the soil of experimental physics, and therein lies their strength. They are radical. Henceforth space by itself, and time by itself, are doomed to fade away into mere shadows, and only a kind of union of the two will preserve an independent reality.

#239. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 27, 2009 9:50 PM

If someone cries MIF and noone is there to read it, are they really first?

#240. Posted by: meg at March 27, 2009 10:49 PM

"If someone cries MIF and noone is there to read it, are they really first?
→ 240. Posted by: meg at March 27, 2009 10:49 PM "

It doesn't matter what anyone says or hears, Meg is always first.

#241. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 27, 2009 11:13 PM

@225. Posted by: Mizzed

TPTB also stated there was no time travel.

#242. Posted by: welh at March 28, 2009 12:06 PM

I only just had a chance to watch the episode. Good episode, although some of Sawyer's behaviour seemed a bit out of character. So what Horace wants an unanimous vote? They would've gone through with it even without Sawyer's vote.

The last couple of weeks I haven't had the time to read most of the posts, so I'll just keep it for the moment at GRAA Mac, and congratulations with your second child!

#243. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 28, 2009 1:11 PM

Sooo...

Back to Ethan for a moment. Although born Ethan Goodspeed? He somehow becomes Ethan Rom?

In a show famous for anagrams, has it been established that Ethan Rom is:

Other Man

or

The Roman;
Moth Near;
Ear Month

???

Anyone?

#244. Posted by: add it up at March 28, 2009 2:40 PM

@ 244. Posted by: add it up:
"Sooo...

Back to Ethan for a moment. Although born Ethan Goodspeed? He somehow becomes Ethan Rom?"

We don't know for sure he was born Ethan Goodspeed. Do we know for sure that Horace and Amy are even married? Maybe Amy's last name is Rom, so that is the name Ethan was given.

Or, possibly you are right. Maybe his name WAS Ethan Goodspeed, until he was indoctrinated into the Others/Hostiles, where he became Ethan Rom.

I guess we'll find out at some point later down the road (or maybe we won't -- you never know with this show).

#245. Posted by: Stocky at March 28, 2009 3:43 PM

@ Scooby-Dude - 178
Sayid, Jack, Kate, Hurley -- etc, are all experiencing these things NOW. 2004 already happened for them. This is not their past, this was ALWAYS their future.

This is BEN's PAST on the other hand. '77 is when he is a child. From my understanding, he would/should remember everyone, but everyone else would not remmeber him in 2004.

Whatever happened, happened.

It's a time loop. Let's say they never go back to the current time. Kate for example... Born in 1977 (lostpedia)... Experiences all those flashbacks... lives her life... crashes on island on September 22, 2004... gets off island until 2007... gets back to island 2007... ends up in '77 island... eventually dies.

She's not really a good example because she was unfortunately born the same year she's living in... but yeah. Hope that kinda helped undertand what I think I understand... unless I'm completely wrong. In that case, I really odn't understand anything. =/

#246. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 28, 2009 4:14 PM

Maybe Captain Bunny Killer has a secret clone! Ha...ha.

#247. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 28, 2009 4:19 PM

@ Cecil Rose - 187
"Oh jeez, some people have all the luck. I get to hang around with a shrew like Harper Stanhope in the Psychology Department.

But of course, both of these are only if we can find a way bach to 1974. Maybe we're their replacements?"

Haha... Maybe!

I totally started to kinda learn how to cook just in case I get a phone call one day from them saying they need me. =]

RANDOM STORY:
A while ago, when I was visiting my grandma and grandpa, my grandpa told my grandma -- "In my next life, I want you to be my cook".

I thought that was mean of him to say, but it was funny. Now I want Ben to say that to me! Lol. =]

#248. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 28, 2009 4:27 PM

@ berkyo - 192
"I have to think about this. A lot. i think it is valid. Desmond in 2007 did not remember meeting Faraday in 2004 until Faraday in 2007 went back to Desmond 2004 and told Desmond 2004 to remember it.

THEN Desmond 2007 wakes up and remembers it."

The memory was always there, it just didn't mean anything to him before.

Maybe you know this and I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

#249. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 28, 2009 5:11 PM

Shanna is causing much confusion...

#250. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 28, 2009 5:25 PM

@ shikotee - 221
"In my last post, i was just guessing how old Jack would be in 1977. Looking at the other posts that reference his actual age, he'd be a teen instead of a child."

That's funny actually. If you're right, he'd be older than Ben.

If Kate was born in 1977, then Jack must've been around 1973-75. I don't know though. Otherwise it might violate the divide by 2 plus 7 rule.

#251. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 28, 2009 5:31 PM

@ FenawayBen - 238
"@ 209. shikotee:
I totally agree about the confusion on the confusion! The sheer number of people on this board who are unable to grasp even the simplest time travel concepts is giving me a head ache."

Yes. I agree.

#252. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 28, 2009 5:41 PM

Mmm... Maybe Ethan Goodspeed isn't the Ethan we know. But then that would be pointless.

#253. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 28, 2009 5:45 PM

Wasn't it Ethan that said his last name was Rom? Maybe he just lied about it. He was undercover.

#254. Posted by: pebspostal at March 28, 2009 6:18 PM

@242/welh: "TPTB also stated there was no time travel."

If true, I'd love to see the link or reference that backs up that statement.

What they did say in past seasons was that the Desmond episodes- "Flashes", "Constant", etc., established the rules for how time travel works in the Lost universe, i.e. consciousness jumping rather than physically moving through time.

The apparent exception to that basic rule is the undefined energy/power at the core of the Orchid/FDW. We were shown that this was so in the Orchid "Bunny Travel" Orientation film.

All of the physical leaps through time except one have been directly caused by that energy from the Orchid- Locke moving three years ahead in time, Ben moving 9 months forward, the Sawyer-Juliet group moving back to 1974.

The exception is the Jack group being taken directly from the Ajira plane and moved back to 1977- I don't think there is any current evidence to suggest any plausible explanation for that event, although I'm sure there will be in time.

Right now, the key may be Faraday. If he has left the island on the sub between 74-77, he may now be working with his mother and/or Widmore. It may even be Faraday that is the "smart young man" who discovers the process in the Lamp Post to locate the island at any point in space and time.

Even better, Faraday in 1977 is now in the position to give to Hawking and Widmore a complete blueprint to future events involving Desmond and the Oceanic survivors.

Here is the beauty to Lost- remember all the speculation in the scenes between Widmore and Des, and whether Widmore's motivation was to help get Des to the island, or just to humiliate him and keep him away from Penny?

Now rewatch those scenes, with the strong possibility that Widmore knows of future events. Why was it that Penny was sent to the monastary on the same day that Des left? Or Hawking happened to be in the jewelry store on the day Des entered it? Or Widmore happens to reference his sailing race on the day that Des asks (and is refused) for Penny's hand? Or Libby happens to run into Desmond in a coffee shop shortly after, and offer him a sailing boat? Or Naomi had a copy of the Des-Penny picture when she crashed on to the island?

#255. Posted by: Mizzed at March 28, 2009 6:53 PM

→ 255. Posted by: Mizzed

Wow, great connections regarding Des! Put it all together and sounds like Papa Wid is pro-Pesmond. Maybe he knew that warning Desmond off of Penny would have the opposite (intended?) effect..Maybe he knows Benry comes after Penny and that Des protects her? Hmmm....

#256. Posted by: freckles at March 28, 2009 8:05 PM

@242 welh stated:

>TPTB also stated there was no time travel.

When and where?

#257. Posted by: Cecil at March 28, 2009 8:59 PM

HBTM
HBTM
MMHB
HBTM

--63

#258. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 28, 2009 9:01 PM

In a completely non-time travel aside, how about the weakness shown by Sawyer in this epi?

Previously, I saw Sawyer as a character who truly developed over the course of the first four seasons, from an extremely selfish, self-loathing cheese hole to a caring, take charge leader.

This season seemed to complete his transition, as we've seen him emerge in Dharma in the 70's as a strong, confident, stable friend and family man.

And yet what happens when his old Oceanic buddies reemerge into his idylic life- the old Sawyer immediately comes out- self-preserving at all costs, deceptive, and finally, willing to sacrifice Sayid rather than lose his comfortable lie.

For all the Jack haters out there, can you see any scenario where Jack would stand idly by and risk Sayid's life, no matter the personal cost to himself?

#259. Posted by: Mizzed at March 28, 2009 10:17 PM

Hey Cecil,

If that HBTM stands for Happy Birthday to me (meaning you) then you have my bestest birthday wishes. If it stands for Hippie Ben's Time Machine...well then...I got nuthin'.

I grasp the whole time travel thing and am perfectly willing to suspend all rational thought on the subject in lieu of entertainment. But one little thing bothers me. When Middle-age Ben saw O815 break in two and crash, he specifically said, Go check it out...there MIGHT be survivors.

Knowing what we know now, it seems that Ben might not have known exactly when the plane would crash, but he'd know there there would be survivors. And even who they would be.

But I s'pose that's what the writers get for keeping a guy around who was only supposed to have a three-episode arc. I wonder how they would have told the story without Ben.

Wow. Tough to keep the tenses straight in time travel.

#260. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 28, 2009 10:29 PM

@ 259. Mizzed: Totally agree. Everyone else would have done all they could to save Sayid at that meeting. Even Juliet probably.

@ 260. ransomjackson: Ben knew there were survivors, but he likely didn't want to reveal to everyone how he knew. "There might be survivors" is enough to get everyone into action. "There are survivors" just stirs up questions, and at a time when Ben is losing his grasp on control of the others, and is out of tune with the Island (as demonstrated by the spinal tumor, another secret he was keeping from the masses at Otherton..."

#261. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 29, 2009 2:42 AM

I don't pretend well; the biggest obstacle for me to overcome with regard to embracing the concept of time travel is that I think physcial time travel is impossible. Yes, I know and understand that it is theoretically possible...the intrepid traveler and his trip of fantastic distance,etc.

So I decided to let go of my objection to the concept of time travel and just pretend as best I can. I pondered the "what happened, happened" concept and I started thinking about the street skinny that a fan favorite will die this season. If Ben can't die as a 12 year old boy because we know he lives at least until 2007, then it follows that the same rule applies to everyone on LOST.

If we are to believe that Daniel is correct and "what happened, happened", then the only possibilities for a fan fav that dies are the people who are in the current present (2007). And that means Desmond, Penny, Sun, and possibly Faraday if the reason he isn't in Dharmaville is that he skipped from 1977 to 2007.

So my money is on Penny having been murdered by the frumious Ben.

My baby steps in embracing the concept of time travel also bring me to the understanding that since both Ben and Locke appeared to have lept forward in time from the current present, that I also have to pretend that pre-destination is real.

I'm gonna try to go with the flow.

So I'm going to just try and go with the flow.

#262. Posted by: undaunted at March 29, 2009 10:50 AM

HBTY
HBTY
HBDCR
HBTY!

#263. Posted by: undaunted at March 29, 2009 11:04 AM

@ 262. undaunted: Sorry, guess again. Ben cannot die in 1977 because he is 12, and he has to live until he is 42 for events to occur as we have seen them. Anyone who went back in time is fair game, they have already lived the events we have seen.

In your theory if I went back in time 1000 years, I would never die for a thousand years until I caught up to my present. Which I hope you see is ridiculous.

Stop looking at time linearally. Look at each person's individual time line.

If you really believe time travel is impossible and you therefore cannot enjoy any show that involves time travel, well that;s your call but you are missing out on some of the best TV and movies out there.

#264. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 29, 2009 11:21 AM

The memory was always there, it just didn't mean anything to him before.Maybe you know this and I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.→ 249. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

LOL. Not sure what I know anymore! SO I think I will just read and wait until th next episode and then the next....

I got the idea that little ben can remember the losties but not the reverse. This even makes sense to me now.

Not sure how Desmond wouldn't remember Faraday when he met him though. He has already lived through meeting him. I would think living with the losties and escaping the island might trigger the memory. And Faraday would of course not remember Desmond when he meets him on the island, because he -Faraday- hadn't knocked on the swan door yet. Unless he has done this a few times.

Ok, No need to tell me I'm mixed up again. Just go on with whatever you are doing and let this slide.

And HBTC. *This* I understand.

#265. Posted by: berkyo at March 29, 2009 11:50 AM

@ 265. berkyo:

"I got the idea that little ben can remember the losties but not the reverse. This even makes sense to me now."

Yes! You have it!

"Not sure how Desmond wouldn't remember Faraday when he met him though. He has already lived through meeting him. I would think living with the losties and escaping the island might trigger the memory. And Faraday would of course not remember Desmond when he meets him on the island, because he -Faraday- hadn't knocked on the swan door yet. Unless he has done this a few times."

Yeah the Desmond memory thing is a bit wonky. Maybe because Desmond is special when it comes to time? :shrugs: Don;t worry, your reasoning is sound even if the explanation was a bit sketchy on the show.

"And HBTC. *This* I understand."

I don't. I am totally LOST on all these new acronyms...

#266. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 29, 2009 12:12 PM

@ 264 FenwayBen: You said, "Sorry, guess again. Ben cannot die in 1977 because he is 12, and he has to live until he is 42 for events to occur as we have seen them. Anyone who went back in time is fair game, they have already lived the events we have seen."

LOL. Ok....I know Ben cannot die in 1977; that makes sense. You are saying that all the 1977 815ers & Faraday (assuming he is still in 1977) can also die because they have already lived their lives to 2007 and that their current present is actually in 1977. Ok, I'm tracking with you here.

So if the fan fave who dies is currently living in 1977 as an adult, there is a really good chance s/he is also a child in 1977. I wonder...when the adult dies, will the child wake from a nightmare, knowing how s/he will die one day?

Always feel free to step in to course correct me on this subject!

#267. Posted by: undaunted at March 29, 2009 2:28 PM

@ 267. undaunted:

It's possible that there could be some kind of psychic disturbance than causes a premonition or nightmare, but I don;t think it is necessary. What is more likely is that they receive visits from Richard Alpert or Widmore or Eloise Hawking to make sure they get to where they need to be. If they are young enough, they might not even remember meeting those people until much later. (See young Locke getting a visit from RA, Charlotte getting a warning from Farraday)

#268. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 29, 2009 2:40 PM

i think the guy perched outside hurleys mental institute was placed there by none other than benjamin linus,
when you hear someone lie once during a conversation ie-ben telling sayid of lockes murder & saying he believed widmores people were responsible, when we all know the true culprit was mr. bug eyes himself, we cant take anything he says as the truth.
i also think if ilana is not a ben operative she has to be one of widmores people, one thing for sure - sayid would be on ajira 316, as we learned a few episodes ago it seems widmore also wants the o6 to return to the island.
random thought- - is hurley turning into nelix from s/t voyager hmmm....

#269. Posted by: san at March 29, 2009 5:27 PM

Yes, my own personal timeline just passed the 63rd milepost yesterday.

No loops in sight.

#270. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 29, 2009 6:58 PM

Maybe the Dharma Initiative has a connection to Milo Rambaldi... =O

#271. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 29, 2009 7:00 PM
#272. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 29, 2009 7:02 PM

Happy birthday, Cecil!

#273. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 29, 2009 7:15 PM

many happy returns cecil.

#274. Posted by: san at March 29, 2009 7:34 PM

Happy, Happy Birthday Cecil!

#275. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 29, 2009 8:55 PM

Happy Birthday Cecil.
Glad you caught up. For awhile.

#276. Posted by: davidrh at March 29, 2009 9:42 PM

happy bithday!!!

Anyway... on a somewhat random note regarding my last post -- It was said that a Rambaldi artifact was recovered in Tunisia. I don't remember what it was but maybe it got there from the frozen donkey wheel.

#277. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 29, 2009 10:37 PM

Cecil—To use Sandra Boynton's version:

Hippo birdie two ewes
Hippo birdie two ewes
Hippo birdie deer Cecil
Hippo birdie two ewes!

It's funnier w/the accompanying cartoons, but the sentiments are just as heart-felt! : )

#278. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 29, 2009 11:14 PM

Happy one year closer to death Cecil!

Enjoy this Ack Attack recap of this episode: http://tinyurl.com/cp4qz9

Cheers!

#279. Posted by: shikotee at March 30, 2009 12:59 AM

Many people are saying Ben cannot die from the gunshot and I agree. That does not mean that in 2007, he cannot be dead from an oar to the head.

Hey, that rhymes.

Sayid tried, in 77
To send dear Ben to a place called Heaven

But in 2007, Sun's anger was fed
and Ben took an oar, straight in the head

Is he dead?

#280. Posted by: Paulo at March 30, 2009 9:09 AM

@ 279. Posted by: shikotee

Thanks for letting us know the Ack Attack recap is up. I checked a few days ago and it wasn't there yet. For anyone who hasn't checked them out yet, they're hilarious!

#281. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 30, 2009 10:14 AM

Thanks guys! You're right. This ackattack stuff is PRICELESS.

#282. Posted by: katijo at March 30, 2009 12:35 PM

Someone said:
Essentially, the characters are "lost" in time, looping or repeating their own cycles- but each character is at a DIFFERENT cycle in any one scene- a fact deliberately kept from the viewer.

--------------------

But then, if a future Jack is in a present time scene with other Lostees, (because he is lost in time), would he not at some point tell the others, ask them if they are future versions of themselves as well, or just freak out and and start making sand angels?


Btw, what's up with all the needless acronyms? Does it make some people feel more like they are part of something special and exclusive or is it just thoughtless copying of other people's quirks? It's not cute, it's lame. And it's especially annoying if the post itself is somewhat interesting. So enough with the obscure acronyms already, or I'll S.A.R.S.I.Y.E.

#283. Posted by: Misha at March 30, 2009 2:38 PM

Yippee...a new acronym game...

S.A.R.S.I.Y.E.

Stick A Rusty Spoon In Your Eye?

What do I win?

#284. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 30, 2009 2:59 PM

Yippee...a new acronym game...

S.A.R.S.I.Y.E.

Stick A Rusty Spoon In Your Eye?

What do I win?

→ 284. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 30, 2009 2:59 PM

Actually, it was Stab A Rusty Screwdriver In Your Ear :D
But close enough, you win a modest applause, somewhere in Holland, from behind a laptop.

#285. Posted by: Misha at March 30, 2009 3:25 PM

HBC!

Boy, never thought there would be this much difficulty understanding the time travel issues. Good thing we have so many helpful people here. Problem is, and it's been brought up already, if this group is having trouble imagine what the viewing public is experiencing. D&C really should be taking personal inventory of their storyline and see if they've perhaps gone a step (or three) too far for the average viewer, or at least the average Lost viewer.

That being said, there certainly are enough sites out there (and right here) for the interested if they want some clarity (or for more confusion).

Don't have anything to add to the conversation with this post. Oh, except that ilovebenjaminlinusxx must be the winner for total number of posts this week hands down. Hey, someone mentioned that Kate was born in 1977. Is there anyone else that young on the show? ie: is there anyone (Kate included) that has traveled beyond the time period in which they have existed from birth to present? Just curious. Don't know if it really would be a problem if it were to actually occur.

#286. Posted by: LostedIt at March 30, 2009 3:39 PM

Misha!

You're in Holland!

Go down to the "Lost Blog Reader Map" blog and stick in a pin to become our first Netherlander.

Click my name to go direct.

#287. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 30, 2009 3:40 PM

@279: shikotee - Thanks for the link to the Ack Attack. My favorite back and forth:

“LOLOL OH, THIS IS RICH. TORTURE? YOU WANT TO KNOW TORTURE? HEY SAWYER! SAWYERRR!!! TELL THEM ABOUT THE BAMBOO SHOOTS, SAWYER!”

And Sawyer’s like ready to puke and under his breath he’s like *coughOMGSTFUcough*

Simply hysterical.

#288. Posted by: LostedIt at March 30, 2009 3:51 PM

Misha,

Yeah...I thought of something like that...but I had something completely different going in the ear..not at all suitable for a family blog like this.

This blog, like every other avocation or endeavor, utilizes its own lingo and vernacular and nomenclature and colloquiallisms (dud I speil that write?) to separate us from the non-Mac-ists.

I feel I can speak for pretty much everybody else here when I say that we intend no exclusion-ism. We may get carried away with our shorthand at times (okay...bloody frequently), but feel free to ask WTH does that mean?

Oops...there goes another one.

Like Birthday Boy Cecil wrote - go stick a pin (or a tulip) in the map. Kinda fun to see where everybody's from.

#289. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 30, 2009 4:15 PM

On a lighter note (which is all my hemorrhaging brain can handle right now), I know where Waaaaalt is - he's on Saving Grace.

Bunnylover: nice shout-out to you by Ilana when she offered to buy Sayid a rabbit's foot in the gift shop.

HBC. And congrats to Mac.

#290. Posted by: lovelost at March 30, 2009 4:55 PM

@ 286. Posted by: LostedIt

Hey, someone mentioned that Kate was born in 1977. Is there anyone else that young on the show? ie: is there anyone (Kate included) that has traveled beyond the time period in which they have existed from birth to present? Just curious. Don't know if it really would be a problem if it were to actually occur.

Didn't everyone foom back to 1954 during Jughead? None of them were born then, not even Locke.

#291. Posted by: Skipper at March 30, 2009 4:57 PM

Too easy. Sun and Ben didn't go back in time because they are already there. Ben as little Ben and sun as the daughter of the boss video presenting dude.
Ben sent Sayid back in time to kill his younger form so he can go back and take over the others as older Ben then kill all the Dahma dudes. A little Ben could never do that. (even though he just killed his dad)
Ben knows everything that will happen so he is making it happen. By the way. Ben killing Lock was a good thing. Michael couldn't kill himself and went back to the island to die for his sins. So Lock would have failed the suicide as well. Ben knew that. Ultimately, Ben wants lock to take over the others.
Talk soon.

#292. Posted by: fyshman at March 30, 2009 5:43 PM

Remember the early, innocent days of Lost-ville, when we were content to go along for this strange supernatural/fantasy ride, and no theory seemed too goofy or implausible? Hey, what's that mowing down the trees? A T-Rex?

Unfortunately, those naive, sunny days were beaten out of us by the misperception that everything would be "explained by science", which led to deeply fought debates on course headings, appropriateness of freighter explosions, whether or not Hurley could actually get in a lifeboat, and the model number and make of Keamy's super-sophisticated sat phone.

Some of the debate came straight off my 1980 SAT test, such as "If a commercial airliner left Sydney heading east at 300 mph...snore...bzzz...blatt (sound of head soundly hitting computer keyboard)".

I mention this now because Doc Jensen has thrown out a theory which harkens back to those good old days of our youth, one that sidesteps completely the cynicism and minutiae that have tarnished our Lost experience.

Jack, Hurley, Kate and Sayid were foomed off the Ajira plane because they were supposed to be in the 70's. Yep, our old body, universal "course correction".

They were never supposed to get on the helicopter in the first place, but were always supposed to travel back in time with the Sawyer group.

Having foolishly slept through their college classes on Greek classics and tragic heroes, they attempted to deny their fate, tried to escape (ala Michael, Desmond, etc), brought about their own return anyway, and have now been sent to where they always have needed to be.

Sun, however, was supposed to get off the island to deliver Ji-Yeon, and so therefore didn't foom back in time because she doesn't have now, and never did have, a role to play in the past.

Easy peasy, pudding pie.

All of this presupposes some uber-entity controlling things, whether its Jacob, the universe, God, the island, or the Great Big Head. But isn't that where we started?

#293. Posted by: Mizzed at March 30, 2009 7:33 PM

HBDC,
HBTY!!

and maaa-nnyy moooorrrre.....

Hope you have better BD memories than Ben Linus!

#294. Posted by: Clementine at March 30, 2009 7:33 PM

@293/Mizzed: "Easy peasy, pudding pie."

Something to think about ...

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner ...

Not so easy ...

Sorry ... too bad ...

#295. Posted by: ealgumby at March 31, 2009 12:30 AM

@291: Skipper - You're 100% correct. Complete brain fart on my part. I'd likely forget my wife & kids' names if I didn't see them every day. Then again, I can still remember details about things when I was in third grade like they were yesterday. A mind is a terrible thing, and it must be stopped, in our lifetime! (anyone know the tv/movie reference?)

@292: fyshman - Lots of people have gone back in time on the show to the exact time on the island where they already existed. Locke (saw the light from the hatch where he was standing over it but chose not to go there), Sawyer (saw Kate help Claire deliver Aaron, he was obviously with the rest of the Losties as well in that time period, he too chose not to place himself in a situation in the past), etc.

whatdoyoumeanitisntwednesdayyet?!

#296. Posted by: LostedIt at March 31, 2009 9:28 AM

ilaxxoo = i love acronyms kiss kiss hug hug ;-)

@LostedIt...yep,aaaahhhhhitsonlytuesday

#297. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 31, 2009 10:14 AM

ilaxxoo = i love acronyms kiss kiss hug hug ;-)
→ 297. Posted by: lost2theworld


Me too though I have to admit one that for some reason bugs me--IMO or IMHO. Not sure why---its very commonly used in texting/blogging but aggravates me for some reason. I mean isn't it pretty much understood that what people share here is their personal opinion? Why the need to state it? Just my own weirdness I guess...
As far as all the creative acronyms used regularly around these parts, particularly the funny Lost related ones are great and have been part of the personality of this blog pretty much since the beginning. Why stop now?
WGNABB's still my favorite! It makes me as happy as the Bad Hat Harry productions animation that aris at the end of House just before 24 comes on.

#298. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 31, 2009 12:40 PM

-> 287. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 30, 2009 3:40 PM

Misha!

You're in Holland!

Go down to the "Lost Blog Reader Map" blog and stick in a pin to become our first Netherlander.

Click my name to go direct.

--------------------------------
Yes, obsessive Dutch Lost fanboy in the house. I'd like to, but I can't get past the 'loading image' screen. I'll try again later :-)


→ 289. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 30, 2009 4:15 PM

Misha,

Yeah...I thought of something like that...but I had something completely different going in the ear..not at all suitable for a family blog like this.

----------------------------------
We seem to think alike. I toned it down from my original thought ;-)

Rewatching parts of S01's Raised By Another, I realized again how important a character Aaron will become in this story. The way in which Malkin says it, (paraphrasing) that Claire's 'goodness' needs to be part of his life when he's growing up. Just speculating ofcourse, but that sounds to me like he will someday be in a position where he has to make one or multiple decisions, crucial to the fate of many, if not the world. Choose between dark and light. And what Malkin sees, is a terrible future in which Aaron grows up without her love and goes on to become very naughty indeed. It could even be that he is still essentially a child when that time comes, making him more vulnerable to the dark side.

Maybe that's part of the game being played on the Island, between dark and light forces. Take a human child and let him decide over the fate of his kind. The goal is to get him on your side. Maybe it's not like an actual decision he's making consciously, but something like that.

I also like the idea that the Lostee foomers themselves are the cause of most of what's been happening. Like Sawyer and the rope, Sayid shooting Ben, Lostees and Dharma, Daniel and Dharma, the incident(?), Jacob(?), etc.

#299. Posted by: Misha at March 31, 2009 1:52 PM

@ 290 lovelost said: "Bunnylover: nice shout-out to you by Ilana when she offered to buy Sayid a rabbit's foot in the gift shop."

Yes, I recall when Ilana said that. I didn't want to bring it up here because it sent shivers down my spine. (*sniff, sniff*) Poor little innocent bunnies being slayed for their feet. If they're so darn lucky, why do the bunnies get murdered when they have FOUR of them??? huh??? huh??? *sniff*

Oh, and happy b-day Cecil. If you tell me you went out to celebrate at a fancy restaurant that serves rabbit I'm gonna scream... really...

#300. Posted by: BunnyLover at March 31, 2009 4:52 PM

Oh yeah!!! BLWTH !!!!

(Sorry Misha... hang around here for a while and you'll get to understand the acronyms. Hint for the above - folks around here get real excited when their post number is special.)

#301. Posted by: BunnyLover at March 31, 2009 4:56 PM

@299 Misha said:

(about the Lost Map Blog)
>Yes, obsessive Dutch Lost fanboy in the house. I'd like to, but I can't get past the 'loading image' screen. I'll try again later :-)

Yeah, I think their servers are overloaded and sometimes it does that. Sometimes it works straight off.

#302. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 31, 2009 5:57 PM

@300 Bunnylover:

No bunnies were harmed in the making of that BD.

#303. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 31, 2009 5:59 PM

@ 298. Crispy Seaplanes

re: IMHO "I mean isn't it pretty much understood that what people share here is their personal opinion? Why the need to state it?"

Hee, hee. Very true my friend.

OMG, MIF!! GRAA, Mac. And BTW, TPTB have stated that JWTB. WTF, do you mean WGNABB? I think that shooting HPB,IMHO, TWTVTW. Oh, and HBTC. Finally, LMAO or LOL, which ever you prefer.

Did I get them all?!

TGI(almost)W

#304. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 31, 2009 6:38 PM

→ 304. Posted by: lost2theworld

Wow, you may not have gotten them all, but I understood them all and that makes me happy!

#305. Posted by: LostinVT at March 31, 2009 7:35 PM

@255 - Mizzed
I like the connections you made between Widmore and Desmond - it does hint at the possibly that Widmore's actions were based on foreknowledge rather than contempt.

I think the best example of this happens during "The Constant", the scene when Desmond speaks to Widmore in the bathroom at the auction. When you watch this scene, take notice that when Charles Widmore turns on the water to wash his hands he does NOT touch the faucet with his hand. He then leaves the faucet running, for Desmond to turn off. The instant that Desmond touches the faucet, he time shifts back to the freighter.
I've watched that scene at least a dozen times, and it definitely appears as if Widmore is "playing his part" in the manipulation of Desmond.

#306. Posted by: vacc at March 31, 2009 8:01 PM

→ 304. lost2theworld:

Now that I'm done LOL, here's a few more:

ANTP?: Anyone Notice the Picture?
DRHIS: David RH Is Screaming
RNMIL: Red...Neck...Man Is Last
EWTB: Ethan Was the Baby
ILBLXX: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
NBC: Nose Bleed Country (hey, I know what network the show's on!)
TWI: Typing While Intoxicated
HSR: Hot Scots Replicator (just for you, Clementine & lovelost! ; > )
HGI: Henry Gale Impersonator (aka Ben)
MOTB: Man on the Boat (aka Michael)
IGTNABB: I'm Going to Need a Bigger Brain
CFC/CFW: Crazy French Chick/Woman (aka Danielle)

Not an Other uses NOIS as part of his/her sign-off, but I'm not sure what it's an acronym for...

#307. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 31, 2009 8:11 PM

I really really really should be doing my homework, but couldn't resist sharing the following:

tinyurl.com/dltd7b

#308. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 31, 2009 8:16 PM

Wow Alais, I haven't seen some of those in many moons. HSR...I like that idea! An TWI, I may have to try that...maybe I would have more deep thoughts to share!

#309. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 31, 2009 8:23 PM

ealgumby #295

the rime of the ancient mariner:

For the first 12 years of my life I thought "rime" meant something akin to "lament" because I was told the Rime of the Ancient Mariner was: "Water, water all around and not a drop to drink." I felt so sorry for those sailors who had no fresh water...oh my gosh, that still makes me laugh!

My parents were very funny people!

#310. Posted by: undaunted at March 31, 2009 9:26 PM

anticipating tomorrow to be a big episode. The TV Guide has an interesting one liner for the description, wasn't what I was originally thinking, but whatever.

So, the Science Channel has Lost repeats going, so I set my DVR to record them all and have been stepping through season 2.

It's so interesting to go back through old episodes when they're not fresh in memory to pick up on stuff.

The thing that stuck out the most today, was when Locke and Jack first watched the orientation for the swan station, and Candle refers to the 'incident'

#311. Posted by: 74 at March 31, 2009 10:19 PM

@307/Alaïs_Longthought

You forgot MIF and DMIB:

MIF = Meg Is First
DMIB = Drunk Meg Is Back

And based upon your @308 link, can't help but add a new one ...

DBSDMIB = Drunk Bar Stool Driving Meg Is Back

Sorry Meg, couldn't resist! ;)

#312. Posted by: ealgumby at March 31, 2009 10:49 PM

@311 74 relayed:

>The thing that stuck out the most today, was when Locke and Jack first watched the orientation for the swan station, and Candle refers to the 'incident'

That's from "Orientation" the very ep ABC repeated a week ago Saturday night, inspiring me to post extensively about it last week. Heck of an episode,

--

"House" review's up - click my name to go there.

#313. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 31, 2009 10:53 PM

@ealgumby #312

alais didn't include MIF 'cause I did in my paragraph o' anagrams.

can I also add that the drunk barstool driving link makes me ever so proud to be from the Buckeye state...UGH!

#314. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 31, 2009 11:25 PM

@310/undaunted: the rime of the ancient mariner

I was actually brought to think of this poem by a recent "Straight Dope" article re The Flying Dutchman, but have seen it has been mentioned very little on various Lost forums/blogs ...

What made me think of it in terms of Lost was TWTVTW (sorry Misha) ... there seems to be a correlation to the Lost mythology. Granted, many works of literature have gone into the Lost story, but I feel this is one that has been ignored ...

From sparknotes:

>>>
A more interesting, though still questionable, reading of the poem maintains that Coleridge intended it as a commentary on the ways in which people interpret the lessons of the past and the ways in which the past is, to a large extent, simply unknowable. By filling his archaic ballad with elaborate symbolism that cannot be deciphered in any single, definitive way and then framing that symbolism with side notes that pick at it and offer a highly theoretical spiritual-scientific interpretation of its classifications, Coleridge creates tension between the ambiguous poem and the unambiguous-but-ridiculous notes, exposing a gulf between the "old" poem and the "new" attempt to understand it. The message would be that, though certain moral lessons from the past are still comprehensible--"he liveth best who loveth best" is not hard to understand-- other aspects of its narratives are less easily grasped.
>>>

What occurred to me, is that Magnus Hanso might be the ancient mariner ... aka Jacob. He did something against "nature" upon his landing which resulted in the deaths of his crew, and has been trying all these years to set it right. Just as the AM suffered over killing the albatross (Hurley's bird?).

For whatever reason, the advent of Jughead on the island, and it's probable detonation in the near (re current '77 events) future (i.e., the incident ... BTW, was the "crater" described by Rousseau on the island in the '77 timeframe? ... could it be a blast crater, rather than a volcanic one?), caused the island to enter its time loop. In the end, Jacob (i.e. the Ancient Mariner, Magnus Hanso) must coaxe the islanders into a different "course correction" to end his curse.

Part of the poem has to do with the AM's redemption, only when he has embraced all of God's creatures, great or small ... perhaps, as I have suggested earlier, redemption can only come when Ben is embraced by someone willing to love him. I would suggest that is Rose/Bernard ... the only ones of pure heart enough to do so. In the end, perhaps they must sacrifice themselves for him ... thus proving their love, and making Ben a better person, hence relieving Jacob (Magnus) of his curse. Adam/Eve would then be Bernard/Rose, and the "others" (meaning the rest of the cast) may or may not make it back to the future.

No easy solution, but perhaps this might work.

#315. Posted by: ealgumby at April 1, 2009 12:02 AM

Not only do we have our very own acronyms, we have a number of terms that are unique to our blog...these are from just the "Meet Kevin Johnson" thread from a year ago. I'm sure there are lots that I'm forgetting!

Blogal warming
Steam of consciousness
Panda Punctuation Police
M-O-O-N spells... (insert preferred word)
Choco-hats (& where's JoePike these days?)
Corduroy Ben (& his Bendaroos)

#316. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 1, 2009 8:01 AM

With Cecil Rose's help, we've put together a Lost Blog Acronym Guide:

http://is.gd/q4a6

It's a work in progress, so chime in through the post's comments box with additional acronyms.

Thanks for getting this going, Cecil!

mac

#317. Posted by: mac at April 1, 2009 8:08 AM

@310 undaunted rimed:

>the rime of the ancient mariner:

>For the first 12 years of my life I thought "rime" meant something akin to "lament"....

Everyone knows that "rime" is the ice coating an aircraft's wings. ]g[

#318. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 1, 2009 10:33 AM

M-O-O-N that spells rime...

IIWY?

#319. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 1, 2009 11:16 AM

@319: ransomjackson - TGIW

Apparently some of the Lost community sites are posting April Fools jokes. One mentioned as a "spoiler" Kate going ballistic and killing Jack tonight.

#320. Posted by: LostedIt at April 1, 2009 11:20 AM

@ 320. Posted by: LostedIt
Apparently some of the Lost community sites are posting April Fools jokes. One mentioned as a "spoiler" Kate going ballistic and killing Jack tonight.

All we can do is hope and pray that it's true. That would make my year!

AWCDIHAPTIT!

#321. Posted by: Skipper at April 1, 2009 11:43 AM

Some people like ILBxxx will probably be disappointed if that doesn't happen...Jack's breathing annoying Kate to the point where she stops him from breathing permanently!

Boy this sounds like fun...what April Fools spoilers/rumors can we come up with?
******FAKE SPOILER******
Hmmm....on tonight's episode TPTB reveal they were only foolin' that there's a whole nother season coming. Tonight is the series finale and it is revealed the castaways have been dead and in Purgatory all along.
How's that?
******END of FAKE SPOILER******

#322. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 1, 2009 11:45 AM

Ben sighted in Scotland? Check the 3rd and 5th pics down.

http://tinyurl.com/dx6hl8

#323. Posted by: mtncbn at April 1, 2009 1:28 PM

@322. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes

I still consider the fake spoiler a viable theory.

#324. Posted by: welh at April 1, 2009 1:48 PM

@ 323 - Hey mtncbn, you think that's bad? Did you see this on the same page - over in the right hand column?

http://tinyurl.com/dfdtwr

OMG!!! (That's OH MAH GAWD for the acronym chanllenged from the south.)

The worst scene in any movie ever made, IMHO...

#325. Posted by: BunnyLover at April 1, 2009 2:16 PM

Thanks BunnyLover! That was the best laugh I've had all day!

That pic is like some demented revenge from bunnies (or bunnylovers) all over the world. She boils them on a stove. They stuff her mouth full of baby carrots. That's gotta hurt. And what if she suddenly breathes in, what happens then?

#326. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 1, 2009 2:39 PM

I wish I hadn't said anything about the acronyms. Now there's an official list of them. This will only mean more acronyms because many people will want to contribute to the list. (Yeahhh, I finally made the list!!! Whoohoo, etc etc).
People will repeatedly bring up the list, and try to be funny with it. And once it's on there, every reader is supposed to know what it means.

Then again, I shouldn't whine. From now on, I will suffer in silence.

#327. Posted by: Misha at April 1, 2009 3:29 PM

Glad you had a nice laugh lost2theworld. As far as "And what if she suddenly breathes in, what happens then?"

All I can say is "revenge is a dish best served cold..."

nha ha ha ha haaaaaa [evil laugh]

#328. Posted by: BunnyLover at April 1, 2009 3:58 PM

**********SPOILER ALERT***********

I just saw on another site where the folks there have positively found out who/what Jason is. DO NOT read any futher if you don't want to know or to be majorly spoiled/soiled.


Jason...

is...

BUNNY #15 !!!!


AUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH.

Happy April Fool's Day!

#329. Posted by: BunnyLover at April 1, 2009 4:06 PM

329. Posted by: BunnyLover

Who the heck is Jason? you talkin' bout the scary dude with a mask or did you mean Jacob?

#330. Posted by: Skipper at April 1, 2009 4:27 PM

@327/Misha: "From now on, I will suffer in silence."

Of course, you could've said "FNO, I will SIS." ;)

Seriously though, sometimes acronyms do serve a purpose. I frequently use D&C instead of "Damon and Carlton" or perhaps "the production staff," and I'm not trying to be funny, just saving a bit of typing. Granted, many of the acronyms are intentionally silly, or end up that way after being spawned naturally. Really, how many times did we have to see posts stating "Jughead was the bomb" before it was just second nature for the leap to JWTB? True, a random blog reader would be puzzled coming across that acronym for the first time, but such is the case with any peer argot. Just be thankful we don't have a bunch of leetspeak (1337) peeps here ... that would truly drive you to painful suffering.

@298/Crispy Seaplanes:
Re use of IMO, the intent is to emote gentle hypothesis, rather than demonstrative statement. If I just say something like "Locke is Jacob," this is clearly an opinion, but I will come across as a bit of a jerk in relating that thought, like "I am right, and you all better listen." By contrast, "Locke is Jacob, IMO" makes it very clear this idea is being presented as a possibility for consideration by the group, rather than "truth" to be jammed down our throats. As such, I will continue to use it.

JMHO

#331. Posted by: ealgumby at April 1, 2009 4:29 PM

One for you Bunnylover:

http://tinyurl.com/ctpuna

#332. Posted by: Cecil at April 1, 2009 5:00 PM

i hope all you guys lucky enough to have a new episode tonight enjoy it, i will see it on friday - only acronym i can think of to describe my wait is
LFTF (looking forward to friday) catch you all once i see the new 1.

#333. Posted by: san at April 1, 2009 6:31 PM

Exciting scientific advance from NASA:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/

#334. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 1, 2009 6:58 PM

Hee, hee, the Head 9000...

Please appreciate my efforts to keep further juvenile commentary in my head... my Head 9000... hee, hee, hee...

5 minutes and counting, yippee!

#335. Posted by: Clementine at April 1, 2009 8:55 PM

Quite an interesting episode, especially considering it was Kate-centric. Without revealing anything, I just want to say I didn't expect the way they dealt with the Ben story. Completely didn't see this coming and didn't think it was possibly I could be anything but unhappy with the resolution of the situation they created but somehow I think I am. Good job D&C! I was wrong.

#336. Posted by: LostedIt at April 1, 2009 10:08 PM

******NO SPOILERS, BUT BEWARE******

1) Anybody ever heard of JFK's magic bullet?
2) Get ready to ROTFALYAO with Miles and Hugo/Hurley's time travel exchange. Seriously - 1st time I think I ever clapped and laughed out loud during LOST.
3) If TPTB don't read this blog, then I have to assume we've all been here before...????
4) I think I finally understand it all. Don't worry - it's for me to know and you to find out... Or, is it for you to know and ME to find out. Either way, I'm there!

(p.s. Thanks Cecil, Haven't gone to the link yet, but knowing you it will be wonderful.)

BunnyLove to all and WHAT A GREAT EPISODE!!!!

#337. Posted by: BunnyLover at April 1, 2009 10:24 PM

"too much inbreeding" who nose?

Nice Cecil... nice...


FYI gramma po lice - I nose it's knows, but you had to be there. Sorry if I eff'd up your name. Where are you anyway?

#338. Posted by: BunnyLover at April 1, 2009 10:33 PM

@ 330 Skipper and everybody else: "Who the heck is Jason? you talkin' bout the scary dude with a mask or did you mean Jacob?"

Uh yes, I did meant Jacob. And the embarassing part is I was sober when I posted that. My bad... and sorry Meg, you're not the only one.

Am I on a roll here or what? Sorry so many posts. Back to the vodka and tube. Cheers!

#339. Posted by: BunnyLover at April 1, 2009 10:42 PM

Looking for Florida university sport? Funny fantasy sport names is here http://blogprosport.com/ !
.

#340. Posted by: Idemeapessy at May 21, 2009 5:46 AM