The Lost Blog

Key Points from "Whatever Happened, Happened"

Season 5, Episode 11
Episode Air Date: 04/01/09

Point 1
Kate

Sawyer

Juliet

Jack

Richard Alpert
This is, by far, the best Kate-centric episode in series history. It's also the only Kate-centric episode that doesn't dawdle on Kate's weepy issues with her father, mother, dead boyfriend, bank heists, fugitive guilt and toy airplanes. And it never hurts to end an episode with a juicy Ben-Alpert mythology hook, either.

So let's get to it by knocking Kate's two backstory revelations off the list:

  • As most folks probably guessed, Sawyer's secret whispered message in "There's No Place Like Home" centered on Sawyer's daughter, Clementine, and his old flame/con-partner, Cassidy. You'll recall that Kate and Cassidy actually know each other; the pair bonded in a backstory segment in "Left Behind."

    Given what we see in this episode, these two women clearly share more than an affinity for shaggy-haired con men. In the span of 10 minutes, Kate tells Cassidy her two biggest secrets: the Oceanic Six left other survivors behind, and the little boy she's been hauling around for three years isn't hers. I have no idea how -- or if -- Cassidy figures into the rest of the series, but knowing the truth could make her an interesting pawn for Widmore or Ben or some other castaway-island consortium.

  • The second revelation fills in the gap between Kate storming away from the late-night marina meeting ("The Little Prince") and her decision to give up Aaron and return to the island with the other survivors ("316"). Her catalyst for this massive shift doesn't involve a visit from Ghost Claire or Smokey or Ana-Lucia or a stallion appearing through the mists of time ... rather, the trauma of nearly losing Aaron in a supermarket leads to a heart-to-heart with Cassidy, which in turn culminates in Kate telling Claire's mother all about the island and Aaron and Claire's "survival" (a tidbit she may want to double-check before she stokes a maybe-dead-girl's mum full of false hope). In the end, Kate gives Aaron to his grandmother so Kate can return to the island to fulfill her self-defined mission: find Claire.

    Seriously. That's her reason for going back. She's going to track down Claire and ... well, I'm not sure what her next step will be since Claire was last seen lounging in Jacob's cabin with Christian Shephard. Nonetheless, "Find Claire" is Kate's motivation ... so good for her. Goals are important, Freckles.

On the island, Kate, Juliet, Sawyer and Roger Linus form a lose group dedicated to saving Sayid's latest victim, young Ben, from bleeding to death. Jack is asked, repeatedly, to swoop in with his surgeon skills, but he cites his murky past history of saving Ben and the resulting quagmire as reasons for opting out.

It's interesting how the "Lost" crew is using the time travel component -- and the paradox/no-paradox question -- as a lens for character development. Sayid is blindly driven to change the future by killing young Ben in the present; newly-mellow Jack seems to subscribe to Faraday's theory that events will transpire as they're supposed to transpire, so his involvement is irrelevant (and convenient, because you know he doesn't want to crack Ben open again); and Kate, Juliet and Sawyer believe it's inherently wrong to let a young boy die, regardless of his future actions. In past seasons, Jack would have acted/reacted, Kate would have avoided making a decision, Sayid may have considered the long-range implications (he wasn't always cold-blooded), and Sawyer would have shot the kid himself.

Within the confines of this episode, the ethically-driven group wins the day. Juliet believes Richard Alpert can save Ben with his Otherly mojo, so Kate (initially alone) and Sawyer (he joins Kate later) drag the bleeding and unconscious young Benjamin Linus into Other territory.

And that's when things get interesting. There's a lot going on in the episode's short Alpert-Kate-Sawyer meeting and I'll need to do some re-watching to pick up all the details. Nonetheless, here's what caught my eye in the first pass:

  • Richard just "appears." He doesn't manifest in a pool of light or anything, but his entrance is odd enough for Sawyer to quip, "Where'd the hell did you come from?" Given the island's unique abilities, "When the hell did you come from?" could also be a reasonable query.
  • Richard reveals -- perhaps mistakenly -- that he knows Ben. We witnessed their initial meeting in "The Man Behind the Curtain," but this is news to Sawyer and Kate.
  • The Others' life-saving process will make young Ben forget "this ever happened" and strip away his innocence. Not to dwell on dialogue, but what is the "this" Alpert refers to? Is "this" Ben's specific, current experience of being shot? Or, is "this" his existence up to that point? Will post-procedure Ben believe he was born and raised on the island (as he once claimed)? Will he forget about Sayid's attempted murder?
  • Charles Widmore and Eloise Hawking are both on the island in 1977 (I'm making the wild assumption that "Charles" and "Ellie" refer to these two). Richard claims he doesn't take orders from either of them. So what gives? Was Widmore a recognized Other leader, or did he adopt that title? And I'm assuming that if Young Ben is assimilated into the Others, he'll come to know Eloise Hawking ... but what sort of relationship will he forge with her, where will her allegiances lie (With Widmore? With Ben? With Alpert?) and how will the Ben-Hawking connection lead to old Mrs. Hawking helping Ben and the Oceanic Six return to the island in "316"? And who is Daniel Faraday's father? (No smartass "Mr. Faraday" responses, please.)
  • Richard appears to take Ben to -- or near -- the Temple. All we see is a big stone door and a whole lot of darkness, but (I think) this is the same spot where Rousseau's team was attacked by Smokey.
Point 2
Hurley

Miles
Hurley and Miles, summoning the spirits of Statler and Waldorf, spend the episode debating the finer points of time travel.

Initially, Hurley believes Doc Brown's time rules are in effect, so changing past events could conceivably make him disappear altogether (a la Marty McFly's siblings). Miles employs the Faraday defense, noting that while Ben's spinning of the frozen donkey wheel twisted their timeline and deposited them in the past, they are experiencing events in their present. It's a little tricky, but Miles actually makes sense: their "present" used to be 2004, but now it's 1977, and subsequent trips will still be their present regardless of the time period. Traveling from the future doesn't guarantee security in the past because the moment at hand is the present, and the present moment can always be a last moment.

Hurley finds a hole in Miles' theory: Young Ben's timeline is still linear, so why wouldn't he recognize Sayid in 2004?

Now, the simple answer is that Alpert's magical healing elixir causes Young Ben to forget Sayid. When they cross paths again in 2004, Ben's unaware of their previous run-in. But a non-erased character who encounters one of the '04 time travelers on the island in 1977 should, presumably, remember that person if they cross paths again ... right? Didn't Charlotte experience this with Faraday?

It's all loopy business, but my hope is that we'll see background shots of Hurley and Miles debating time travel through the rest of the season.

Point 3
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "You're all free to leave whenever you want, but I'll shoot you in the leg." - Miles, explaining the rules of house arrest to Jack, Kate and Hurley.
  • Second Best Line: "Then he dies." -- Jack "Ivan Drago" Shephard, responding to a request to help young Ben.
  • I'm really looking forward to the renewed Locke-Ben dynamic. The half-smile Locke uncorks at the very end of this episode had a hint of evil ... and that could be awesome.
  • Does Dharma allow Juliet to moonlight as a doctor? We know she works at the motor pool, but we also see -- for the second time -- Juliet barking orders in the infirmary.
  • Any guesses where Sayid is hiding? Jin says he's "going North," but seeing as the island is in 1977 and Rousseau's lair has yet to be built, I have no idea where he'll end up.
  • I know he's only been around for a season and a half, but Miles is giving Sawyer and Hurley a run for their "best line" money. His snark always satisifes.
  • I doubt this will ever happen, but I'd love to see an Alpert-centric episode. Who is this guy?

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"Dead Is Dead" -- Ben tries to atone for his wicked deeds ... or so he'd like us to believe. Airs Wednesday, April 8, 2009 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

this is not meg! i'm first!

#1. Posted by: jbeezy at April 2, 2009 12:11 AM

MIF!

GRAA, Mac!

Really enjoyed this episode & am glad I got home from school early enough to see it. Loved Hurley's & Miles' debate, too. I actually understand LOST's version of time travel better than I do XML.

One question for now: How did Miles know about Ben turning the FDW?

M-O-O-N spells TTFN... ; >

#2. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 2, 2009 12:18 AM

now that i've actually read the review (that i was stalking, btw) i must say GRAA. Mac you are my favorite part of the LOST experience- you always make me double over in laughter and i feel the need to tell all of my LOST friends to read your review. thanks for bringing the comic relief. i effing love this show!!!

#3. Posted by: jbeezy at April 2, 2009 12:19 AM

HITASTW
Hurling is third and still working....

#4. Posted by: hurling at April 2, 2009 12:19 AM

Is it possible that the Numbers were put into the Swan by Hurley while working for the Dharma Initiative and that alone explains their omnipresence and use in the hatch? The numbers seem to primarily be linked with Hurley's own paranoid mind.

This was the only good Kate centric episode in series history. Evangeline actually did a great acting job this time.

Next week's Ben episode will be fantastic from the narrative/storytelling front. We'll get flashpresent (how Ben gets saved by the others, and hopefully how his relationship begins with Widmore/Alpert/Eloise) and flashbacks (how does Ben get beat up before heading for the airport; does he kill Penny?). We'll also probably get a bit of information from the reappearance of the monster.

#5. Posted by: rvcapitalist at April 2, 2009 12:25 AM

"Shoot me" and "Ask me some more time travel questions." Miles is getting to be funnier than Hurley. I think you're right, Mac, they're gonna play with that for awhile.

#6. Posted by: hurling at April 2, 2009 12:27 AM

I like the Miles "stay here or I'll shoot ya' routine"... yeah! that's the ticket. me and my wife, uhh... Morgan Fairchild, whom I've, uhh, had relations with, we're gonna shoot you if you don't stay put.

There's a good reason they don't put Kate-centric episodes on during sweeps months - yaaawwwnnn.

Good to see Jack finally grow some curlies with - I 'MAY' have messed with the islands' karma - so - I am just going to let this fickle burb fend for itself. If 'the island' wants to let Benjamin Eric Cartman Linuus die, then so be it, this whole affair is off my shoulders.

#7. Posted by: DocH at April 2, 2009 12:31 AM

GRAA Mac. Hope you're sleeping a little bit this week.

Hmmmmmm. So it seems (for now) that the answer to last week's question of whether Sayid's shooting would change anything in the timeline is a big fat no. If that is indeed the case and "Whatever happened, happened", I would be a bit disappointed. I was hoping that things COULD change and the whole Lost world we've come to know would get twisted.

That being said, it was great to have a question raised and answered in the same episode. With Hurley asking why Ben wouldn't remember Sayid in the future (great reaction from Miles there BTW) and Richard later saying whatever he's going to do will make Ben forget that "it" happened. A rare moment for the show.

Is it me or did Richard throw out some extra evil vibes in this episode? Maybe it's knowing that Dharma (in Richard's eyes at least) brought Ben to be made into the monster he would become. Richard knew they were sealing their own fate and exploited it. Seemed that way to me anyway.

If Jack is now a man of faith, should we call him Obi-Jack??

#8. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at April 2, 2009 12:35 AM

GRAA Mac, you are the bomb.

I'm a lost freak but the time travel is/was getting to be too much to believe, and now the activity in the Dharma camp is bothering me as well.

Would Horace and Ann Arbor really let a guy named LaFluer who randomly appeared on the island and who appears to know Richard Alpert really be head of security? Juliet as motorpool doc, the O6 replacing the new recruits no problemo, etc. No wonder these incompetents get wiped out.

Characters who have barely appeared this season I would like to know more about:
Michael... is he still surviving every apparent death?
Walt... was the Walt/Locke scene a signoff? No he will be back, at least as an apparition.
Rose & Bernard.
Faraday... obviously he will eventually be back.
Claire... referenced this week. No cameo.

I'm sure there are plenty more. The plot has become so complicated its pretty ridiculous. I'm as hooked as ever though!

#9. Posted by: Dave Cyprian at April 2, 2009 12:38 AM

Oh, and after declining medical consult on the potentially fatal wounding of a minor, and perhaps inviting Armageddon for the solar system in the process, Jack defends his choice to NOT intervene in young Ben's treatment.

Kate (angered): "What are you doing?"

Jack (non-chalant): "Making some sandwiches."

#10. Posted by: DocH at April 2, 2009 12:41 AM

First of all, congratulations Mac on your second child.
I was absent last week but I did saw the episode and, naturally, I read your review.


About Clementine:
- I told you so!

About Jack:
- Jack is finally accepting that the Island is special. He's turning into a man of Faith.

About Richard:
- Of course we're going to see a RA-centric episode. Don't worry Mac, the beginning has to be explained.

About Faraday:
- I still believe that his father is Charles Widmore.
- And he was right all along. The title couldn’t be more clear than this: “Whatever Happened, Happened”.
They’re all doing what they were meant to do and always did.


Finally, it’s nice to see how TPTB manage to turn around characters’ behavior and their motivations.
God! I love this show!

Beijos & Abraços

#11. Posted by: PreacherOnun at April 2, 2009 1:06 AM

GRAA Mac

Oh, and Dave Cyprian @9: JWTB, not Mac. :)

Loved the Miles - Hurley interactions, although I still feel a big lack of usefulness of the whole Miles character, although I love his comic relief. And it's good to have one's time travel theories confirmed (or at least acknowledged). Miles' conversation with Hurley was practically literally identical to some of the posts I made during the earlier episodes of this season, including the whole "the memory thing is a problem". Now, Alpert's upcoming Smokey treatment for Ben might explain his loss of memory, but we've seen other time travel memory losses in past episodes (Desmond-Daniel, Danielle-Jin).

I bet it's safe to say that Sawyer &co's Dharma nice life is over. Dharma must find out at some point that they brought Ben to the Other's.

The Alpert conversation was full of good information, as Mac pointed out.

So, will we see a flashback episode for all of the 'missing O6'ers'? And will all of them include the Marina scene around the half hour mark? :) Hurley wasn't there, so not in his episode I guess.

Is next week a Ben-centric episode? Will we find out Penny's fate?

Jack is becoming quite annoying, buying into the whole "I'm here for a reason" manipulation. Are there still some sane characters left?

#12. Posted by: Plain Simple at April 2, 2009 1:15 AM

@ 9 Dave Cyprian

"Michael... is he still surviving every apparent death?"

Remember that the Island's ambassador Christian released Michael from doing more work for the island (as seen in the season 4 finale) freeing him to die. Michael was in an enclosed room with a rather large bomb and that probably played a role too. ;)

#13. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at April 2, 2009 1:16 AM

@5/rvcapitalist: "Is it possible that the Numbers were put into the Swan by Hurley while working for the Dharma Initiative and that alone explains their omnipresence and use in the hatch?"

Unlikely- the Dharma Initiative built the radio tower with the purpose of transmitting the numbers prior to Hurley's trip to 1977.

@9/Dave Cyprian: "Michael... is he still surviving every apparent death?"

Even by Lost standards, Michael is D-E-A-D, and that spells Moon. At least he got a nice send-off from Christian.

As for this episode, I've been pretty vocal this season supporting the theory that the future can not be changed, that the characters are predestined to walk certain paths, and that the Losties are back in time not to change events, but to ensure they happen.

Juliet and Sawyer save Amy/Ethan, Jin saves Danielle, Kate/Sawyer save Ben, while Sayid ensures Ben becomes King Other. Oh, and Faraday is needed to get them back to their own time.

So that leaves Miles and Jack with roles still to play...

I still have a feeling that Jack=Jackob, and that his passivity is part of that slow transformation. But Miles future is interesting- his skill is discoursing with the dead, so what gone but not forgotten individual does Miles commune with in 1977?

Final thought of the evening- if Widmore and Hawking are still on the island in '77, doesn't that mean a) Penny was born there, or b) like Ben/Alex, Widmore/Penny are not really father-daughter?

#14. Posted by: Mizzed at April 2, 2009 1:24 AM

Congrats on the new baby Mac & Mrs. Mac.

I kept laughing during this episode because it sounded just like the discussions on our board. Watching Lost has become a bit deja-vuey... I think due to all of the time we spend rehashing the details and coming up with predictions. I find myself saying "Yup, we called that" about 6 times an episode at least. Still love it here though and can't imagine just "watching" Lost like normal, non-obsessed people do.

Am I the only one who noticed the guy that looked kind of like Mr. Friendly? He's in the scene at the beginning where Horace was talking to the group. It seemed like he got a nice clear shot, and he has a very distinctive beard so I thought maybe this wes Tom. Then on rewatch I thought not because the guy seems to a ton of grey in his beard. I am thinking he must be older than Tom would have been back then...

#15. Posted by: Lost in ca at April 2, 2009 1:40 AM

I'm usually not a big Kate fan, but I do love Claire and can't wait to see what happens with that whole storyline.. How is Kate going to find her when they are in different times? Or, is Claire the same kind of person as Christian? Maybe she will find Kate first?

#16. Posted by: nikki at April 2, 2009 1:50 AM

I've been reading here for awhile, and love Mac's reviews and the insightful comments that always follow. But this is my first time to post here . . .

What really grabbed my attention tonight is the scene in the grocery store where Aaron just goes off with someone who looked similar to Claire. It made me wonder if TPTB are suggesting that Aaron has some special memory of his real mother from infancy, and instinctively knows that Kate is not his real Mommy . . .

#17. Posted by: LostLove at April 2, 2009 2:03 AM

Is it just me or was that "The Orchid" maybe before it was built by the Dharma, overgrown with plants... (remember when they interrogated Sayid they were shocked to know he knew about the stations names before they were built) Maybe Alpert sent him forward in time where he woke up next to Locke and he now remembers Sayid and the other Losties back in time, and the two of them go searching to find them.

#18. Posted by: Chris at April 2, 2009 2:03 AM

Re: "Charles Widmore and Eloise Hawking are both on the island in 1977 (I'm making the wild assumption that "Charles" and "Ellie" refer to these two)."

Have we seen either of these people in 1977? I have the memory of them being on the island when the group flash-backed to the 1950s ("Jughead") and they both seemed very young.

In the present time (2004 and beyond) they look appropriately old enough to have been young in the 1950s. So I'm wondering if they might not already be gone by 1977.

Can someone set me straight on this timeline thing for Charles and Ellie? Were they mentioned in this episode, and I missed it?

#19. Posted by: LostLove at April 2, 2009 2:16 AM

Something that annoys me - as far as Jin knows, Sun was with Jack, Kate etc. yet now he doesn't seem to care about whats happened to her?

#20. Posted by: david at April 2, 2009 2:29 AM

→ 12. Posted by: Plain Simple "Miles' conversation with Hurley was practically literally identical to some of the posts I made during the earlier episodes of this season, including the whole "the memory thing is a problem".

Totally agree that the Miles/Hurley convo about time travel did echo many posts on this blog. Having long been in the "Whatever happened, happened" camp, I can't help but gloat. YESSS!!!! MWA HA HA!!!

The other thing is I don't think that Ben HAS to have forgotten the events or people.

It would be so interesting if he DID remember Sayid in the "FEW-CHAH," in fact, if he remembers the Losties' participation in 1977 events, and that's why they've been singled out in the future and he's researched/stalked them.

What if he's willing to send his own shooter back in time, because he knows that's why he gets the fastrack train to Otherdom in the first place.

#21. Posted by: freckles at April 2, 2009 2:38 AM

Oh, and I have to admit I was dreading the Kate-centric episode, but ended up genuinely moved by Evangeline's acting, especially her goodbye to Aaron.

#22. Posted by: freckles at April 2, 2009 2:38 AM

I also agree that the Miles-Hurley conversation seemed like many discussions here! Everyone is going to agree so we need to create an acronym for that, too! :D It's 4 am here so I shouldn't be the one creating it. Well, probably something like MAHSLU! (Miles And Hurley Sounded Like Us!)-- I told you, someone else will have to come up with something better...

Funny how they hide little Aaron's head when he says he wants milk (in the car), probably the little actor was not in a very good mood and they made him record that line later...

#23. Posted by: Julia at April 2, 2009 3:52 AM

Great observations again Mac, although I don't think all of Kate's flashbacks have been useless, this is clearly the best one since we saw her blow up dear old dad back in season two. I know that you thought the insurance fraud part was stupid, but hey, Kate was like 18 or 19 and her criminal schemes were not that well thought out then, so I bought it. Since then I agree with you they have been just variations on the same theme with no surprises at all, so it was nice to see something relatively new.

It's weird to see Juliet trying to save young Ben's life so ardently, I mean with the exception of Sayid and Jack, I don't know of anyone else who hates Ben more than Juliet does. Considering that he held her as a virtual prisoner for three years, and then sent her boyfriend Goodwin on a suicide mission and then showed her his decaying corpse, that's a lot of letting bygones be bygones for Juliet. After all, this was a woman who reacted like she just picked up Rosemary's Baby when she realized it was Ethan Rom she delivered and Ethan was merely one of Ben's enforcers, not Ben himself. Oh well, I guess three years of Dharma bliss has changed her.

I love the Hurley-Miles discussion, the writers clearly set it up as a kind of Socratic dialogue between the Lost fans who are science geeks and those are not. I loved how after Miles spent the afternoon ridiculing Hurley's intelligence, the big fella ends up tripping up Miles' certainty at the end, nice touch. It was also nice to see Locke again and in a position of power over Ben, however temporary that will probably turn out to be.

#24. Posted by: unladenswallow at April 2, 2009 3:55 AM

@18. Posted by: Chris

Radzinsky was just refering to The Swan.

#25. Posted by: PreacherOnun at April 2, 2009 3:59 AM

Ben absolutley could have remembered sayid and everyone else from when he was a kid. Just because it was never mentioned in previous seaons doesn't mean shit. Only one with that info would be Ben, and it doesn't seem like he had any need to share it.

And there HAS to be a Richard Alpert centric episode. There are to many questions about him that need to be answered. I'll be very disappointed if there's not. When it has come to revealing peoples personal mysteries (what Kate did, jacks tats, how Locke got paralyzed etc), the show has always SHOWN us, not just TOLD us.

#26. Posted by: Lupi at April 2, 2009 4:10 AM

Great episode, great review as always Mac. Is it just me or is Horace the most annoying man on the planet? The David Lee Roth wig and open mouth drool are really getting on my nerves. I also didn't like the casting of 24's Michelle Desler to play Horace's wife Ann who is also very annoying. Anyway, I digress.
Personally, I like the new Jack, giving in to some spiritual residue and letting things be as they are. Great point a bout role reversals.
I'm also convinced that Locke is a ghost or smoky image since he was dead on the airplane ala Christian Sheperd. He didn't appear standing on the beach until after the other passengers from Ajira flight had been settled for a while. (They had been in the station for a while and were confused on why they hadn't seen him before).
Overall, its nice that we're getting answers. Period.

#27. Posted by: richardalpert at April 2, 2009 4:11 AM

Looking forward to seeing why Hurley brought a guitar with him - Charlie!

#28. Posted by: Stephanie at April 2, 2009 4:55 AM

This episode was great. Jack's coldness towards young Benny is awesome. I didn't get why Kate suddenly got the urge to spill her guts to Cassidy though. bit odd.
Miles is one funny dude.
Nice Recap Mac. thx

#29. Posted by: mapache at April 2, 2009 6:02 AM

breaking the rules by posting before reading recap or other posts, but...

that conversation between Hurley and Miles was classic, priceless, awesome!
It couldn't have happened between any other two characters and had that same effect. When Miles was like 'heh, I never thought of that' I just started laughing.
It was like the writers took our usual conversations here and just threw it in!

OK, will read up now...great, great episode...things are starting to really build up now!

#30. Posted by: 74 at April 2, 2009 7:54 AM

It is interesting to read the various posts week to week. Clearly this group thoroughly enjoys the show. That said, for those of us of are dedicated but not hard core observers of LOST, I cannot help but feel that the show has taken on a soap opera feel the last couple of weeks. It just does not have that cutting edge like it did in season one or two. The whole sci-fi angle has taken over too much of the series. Perhaps we will get some old fashioned Ben vs. Locke mind game drama going again in the next few weeks.

#31. Posted by: gables79 at April 2, 2009 8:03 AM

No doubt my favor part of the episode was the Miles/Hurley back and forth. I liked how the writers take the time travel questions/issues head on. And Hurley watching his hands to make sure they didn't disappear was funny.

But what I didn't like was the Alpert part - it just seemed too corny. Before the losties arrived, the story was that Ben just defected to the others because he wasn't accepted with his dad and Dharma. So the losties interrupt, lil Ben is shot and now what are the only things missing? He needs to forget everything and he still needs to be sinister. What does Alpert say? Exactly that! Just seemed like a lame way for the writers to get out of that hole.

#32. Posted by: fuber at April 2, 2009 8:20 AM

GRAA Mac! I especially like your observation that there was reversal of roles with regard to the O6er's reaction to young Ben's life.

I don't think Jack was indifferent to Ben's situation; I think he realized Ben would live because he knew he wasn't going to do anything to save him and, in fact, Ben lived. Jack even said that he thought the island wanted to work things out on it's own and he was going to stop interfering with that process.

Alpert said Ben would lose his innocence, he would always be one of them, and he would drastically change. That piques my interest.

Ben says he returned to the island to be judged. By Smokey? That makes me wonder if this "judgment" process will turn out to be an elaborate ruse. Like in the Wizard of Oz & "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Will Vincent play a part in exposing the ruse, as Toto did? Or not

Did I see it right? Was there no bullet exit hole in Ben's clothes?

GGTW...gotta go to work.

#33. Posted by: undaunted at April 2, 2009 8:23 AM

Had a late night rehearsal last evening so just got around to watching the episode this morning. And I HAVE read up to number 32 on the postings . . . Good answers last night. Now we know where Aaron is. (Great . . . AND SCARY supermarket scene - especially if you are a parent....) I thought it was a great Kate episode. (I know we get down on her . . . but remember, it’s the WRITERS who make her . . . one way or another...not the actress.)

Loved the Hurley and Miles “who’s on first because the chicken AND the egg are on second” routine! Jack, the uninvolved badass, is a new treat. All the work on everytone’s part to save Ben was surprising, but had to happen. (I thought Ben’s Dad was surprisingly effective last night . . . I felt the angst . . . )

Obviously, “what about Ellie and Charles?” , a retort from one of the henchmen will be a pivot line for episodes to come. And everyone’s certainly right in the postings so far . . we HAVE to have a Richard Alpert episode before this whole thing is over next year!

Loved the look on Ben’s face AND Locke’s face at the end. A real whooooooooa moment. Not to mention, the previews look awesome . . . Ben doing his Indiana Jones routine falling thru the floor - ready or not - has my excitement level rising . . .

Thanks for the synopsis Mac. Whoops, time to get that first child dressed for the day and help Mom with the baby . . . . (That’s right, WE’VE BEEN THERE . . . . . )

#34. Posted by: davidrh at April 2, 2009 8:25 AM

@2/Alaïs_Longthought: "How did Miles know about Ben turning the FDW?"

How did he know about Ben turning the wheel? It doesn't make sense ...

Locke never mentioned it to anyone in "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham," nor did Ben in any episode we've seen. One could argue, I suppose, that Ben mentioned the FDW to one of the O6 (5?) before the 316 flight, and we just never saw it on air. However, I really don't think there was much room for extraneous conversation beyond what we've seen on the show between Ben and the O5 ... most of them wanted nothing to do with him, let alone sit around chatting. Even on the off chance that did happen, then for Miles to know about, at least one of Kate/Jack/Hurley needed to explain the story to Miles, and they just haven't been on-island long enough for that to have happened.

Miles could not have known about the FDW before then ... even Locke didn't know how Ben moved the island until he fell to the bottom of the well. And no one who saw Locke go down the well knew what was down there.

So the question remains ... how DID Miles know about Ben turning the FDW?

Either this is a production error (which I'm way past believing is impossible ... I gave up on every detail meaning something after all the screwed up prop placements in Jin's panda/hospital epi ["Ji Yeon"], among others), or Miles has knowledge of the FDW which the other Losties do not, and could not ... nor should he.

Unless somehow his weird ghost-whispering skills allow him to "remember" things he shouldn't be able to otherwise ... did he get some time-travelling vibe from Locke?

Very strange indeed ...

#35. Posted by: ealgumby at April 2, 2009 8:25 AM

--Great episode this week I thought. I am a huge "Back to the Future" fan and thought it was hilarious when Hurley actually referenced that last night!! Great review as always! Ben Rules.... Peace Out...

#36. Posted by: JoeyJohn at April 2, 2009 8:29 AM

Short comment ... I thought HPB's muffled "please help me" to Jin near the beginning of the epi ... sounded a lot like Jacob's muffled "help me" to Locke!

#37. Posted by: ealgumby at April 2, 2009 8:31 AM

Sorry for the double post...Computer froze up and didn't think it went threw the first time...

#38. Posted by: JoeyJohn at April 2, 2009 8:32 AM

Kates's a hack. Her character has just become annoying and tired. I too am wondering why Jin isnt strangling somebody to find out where Sun is. My wife would shoot me if she found out I was hanging out, drinking the Dharma KoolAid while she was stuck with Lapidus in the land before time. I dont see how they cant do a Richard episode...theres too much going on there with the eternal youth thing and other random freak of nature happenings.

#39. Posted by: katespanties at April 2, 2009 8:38 AM

Thanks Mac!!

Did y'all catch Juliet explaining that their doctor was busy at the Looking Glass? Wonder if there's anything to that comment, or if the writers are simply trying to establish that the Looking Glass was in existence in 1977 and also explain why Juliet was conducting the surgery.

#40. Posted by: DCMatt at April 2, 2009 8:51 AM

#40:

Will you be changing your name to "kates-hack-panties" anytime soon?

It worked for RNM years ago.

:-)

#41. Posted by: davidrh at April 2, 2009 8:51 AM

Great review, Mac!

@ 14 Mizzed wrote:

Unlikely- the Dharma Initiative built the radio tower with the purpose of transmitting the numbers prior to Hurley's trip to 1977.

Hmm, makes me think. Somehow I recall the numbers being transmitted from that location earlier - didn't Hurley's trip to Australia reveal someone hearing them in WWII or something? Does anyone else remember this? Could the radio tower pre-date Dharma? Does it matter LOL?

#42. Posted by: Glostover at April 2, 2009 8:54 AM

Jin (having become amazingly proficient in English in his 3 years at Dharma) doesn't seem to be the same ol' Jin from the early days . . .

But it's a good question: it's almost as though he has forgotten her (the '70s was like that, if I recall) --- and we have no idea what she is doing, other than hanging out with 'Ol' Blue Eyes' Frank (Lapidus.)

#43. Posted by: LostLove at April 2, 2009 8:56 AM

Mac, GRAA. Small typo: It's Statler with a T.

Hurley is da bomb (aside from Mac and Jughead, of course). Was so good to see him pelting Miles with questions.

@38 ealgumby -- Help me vs. Please help me.
Noticed that too. Just a nifty parallel or something more?

Long shot theory. We didn't actually see Claire's mum take Aaron. Possible Cassidy long con and she's gonna take him?

Richard appears out of nowhere because he uses Maybelline's Instant Age Rewind Concealer.

#44. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 2, 2009 9:00 AM

Do we have any definite knowledge about how long ago Sawyer was involved with Cassidy in 'The Long Con?'

I kept thinking that Clementine should still be very young, and was surprised to see her portrayed as closer to 'teenager' when Kate came to visit Cassidy.

I have a lot of unanswered questions and should obviously watch the episode again 'On Demand.' (Thanks, Comcast!)

#45. Posted by: LostLove at April 2, 2009 9:07 AM

@1 jbeezy exulted:

>this is not meg! i'm first!

Then by the rules of this blog, you *become* Meg.

#46. Posted by: Cecil at April 2, 2009 9:19 AM

WooooHoooo! Great episode!

And GRAA, Mac, even better because you do it with new baby brain fog!

ILTMHC, I Loved The Miles & Hurley Conversation, too! I had to pause the show cause I was cracking up and didn't want to miss anything. (My husband was rather annoyed but he'll get over it.) I agree with whoever (sorry) said above that it seemed to be taken verbatim from posts on this blog.

@2 alias & #37 ealgumby...re: miles & the FDW

I still believe that we will find out the Miles was on the island before arriving on the freighter. I've thought that ever since his comment to Charlotte in the S4 finale. He has always seemed to me to quietly be the man in the know. If he was on the island in the past, he could know that to move the island you have to turn the FDW. He knows that Locke moved it, so he knows it was turned.

I liked the dynamic between Kate and Cassidy. Women bonding over shared criminal/con-artist pasts and broken hearts. It's a new, less-weepy, less-annoying side of Kate. I loved too how Cassidy called her out on taking Aaron. Maybe she serves as Kate's conscience.

I agree with davidrh, that the grocery store scene was creepy. Any time I see something like that with a kid it makes me sick. Being a parent is a scary thing. Even creepier though was the cracked-out Claire look-alike. There is definitely something more to that. As someone (sorry, again) previously said, there was a recognition factor there with Aaron.

Interesting that they brought Claire's mom back into the story. Although, I'm not sure why Kate wouldn't have told Jack that she left Aaron with her. Wouldn't that have been an easy way to set Jack's mind at ease instead of being all crazy about it? I also don't get why Kate wouldn't have mentioned that Jack and Claire are siblings, since she spilled everything else to her. I guess Kate's new found truth telling only goes so far.

I loved Jack's snarky, "you didn't like the old me." comment to Kate. Although I think the four of them all need to just agree to an open four-way relationship and be done with it, otherwise it could evolve into "As Dharmaville Turns" very quickly.

My favorite part was the ending with RA. The implied dynamic between RA, Charles and Ellie was great foreshadowing for the future. I thought it strange that RA didn't know who Kate was. I know they haven't been in a scene together but you would think because he is "all knowing" he would know who she was? Thoughts?

Locke, with a smirk on his face, to Ben, "Welcome back to the land of the LIVING." Definitely the best line of the night. What a great scene!

I'll end with I...can't...wait...for...next... week! Finally, Ben's story.

I started typing after I read post 40. We'll see how many posts there are now that I'm done typing.

#47. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 2, 2009 9:19 AM

"Richard appears out of nowhere because he uses Maybelline's Instant Age Rewind Concealer."

→ 45. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

Good one! I almost spit my coffee all over my computer screen!

#48. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 2, 2009 9:23 AM

of course this was the best Kate-centric episode ever. It started off with me anticipating another yawner starring Evangeline Lilly but ended with me being pumped to see Ben get face to face with Smokey next week. Pure excitement.

I agree with whoever said we need to make up an acronym for the Hurley/Miles conversation because it was by far the best thing last night.

HAMCATT!!
(Hurley and Miles conversation about time travel !!)

!!=was awesome

Every episode automatically becomes epic when Richie Alp shows up and drops some knowledge on us viewers, no matter how minor. I bet he took Ben into the Temple.

Anyways, GRAA Mac, love the comments so far. I have a tidbit of dialogue i need clarifying from last night: When Juliet was explaining why the doctor was gone to whomever, it sounded like she said something about Faraday. I'm not sure because my television's speakers are bunk and my friends were conversating right next to me during that part.
Am I the only one who heard that??

Peace

#49. Posted by: grimgravyX at April 2, 2009 9:25 AM

I think the answer to Hurley's time travel question about Ben knowing Sayid is that it hadn't happened yet in Ben's personal timeline. Just like Desmond didn't remember Faraday's message until it happened in Desmond's personal timeline. Another example would be that if Ben died, he would either die on the cot or vanished at that moment in his personal timelime. It would not erase everything that had happened since then.

And speaking of Ben, I think the TPTB messed up. I looked at Ben's shooting by Sayid several times and it was pretty clear to me that Sayid either shot him in the heart or very close to the heart. Either way, the bullet hole on Ben's jacket was on the left side of his body. When Jin turns him over and subsequenly from there, the wound is on the right side of his body. Anyone see the same?

#50. Posted by: genepools at April 2, 2009 9:28 AM

This was a much better episode than the last. I wasn't looking forward to a Kate show but it was good. As a parent, the scenes at the supermarket and then Ben's dad hit home. Nice how the flashbacks and the island scenes dovetailed with endangered child/worried parent issues.

I was LMAO during the Miles/Hurley scene. It was verbatim what we've all said here the past couple weeks. It's awesome the writers had the foresight that all of these questions and discussions would be going on and so addressed them on the show Could the writers have read our blog then time travelled to the past to write and film the episode? hee hee Seriously though with the back to the Future reference even? We've been referencing time travel movies and especially BTTF constantly in our efforts to grasp what's going on this season. It was almost creepy!

I almost had the sense that Ben did indeed forget getting shot by Sayid when Richard took him into the temple (to be healed by Smokey?) I realized after that his look of recognition/surprise on waking up was due to seeing Locke sitting over him. But I almost felt that maybe he'd remembered Sayid shooting him as if it had just happened (since the 1977 events are happening as the present for the other 316ers concuerrently just as the 2007 events are the present for Locke, Ben, Sun stc...) It was like Richard took Ben into the temple had just happened then Ben woke up and bam! memory floods back. It reminded me of the Desmond scene where he suddenly remembered meeting Faraday.

Speaking of Richard and Ben at the temple--why couldn't Richard take him there to heal the tumor?

#51. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 2, 2009 9:30 AM

@19 LostLove asked:

>Can someone set me straight on this timeline thing for Charles and Ellie? Were they mentioned in this episode, and I missed it?

When Richard decided to take in young Ben, one of the other Others asked him, approximately: "Don't you think you ought to check with Ellie? And what if Charles finds out?"

Richard's response: "I don't answer to either of them."

#52. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 2, 2009 9:31 AM

Bizarre moment last night:
during a commercial break, I change the channel. There pops up Richard Alpert, in full eyeliner, selling, in Spanish, a Dutch beer!

Talk about fooming timelines and losing innocence.

#53. Posted by: welh at April 2, 2009 9:32 AM


Did the cinematography/videography of the scene of Alpert carrying the ailing Ben into the Temple seem kind of vintage.

It didn't look like LOST. More like an older (slightly yellowed) technicolor epic about....dare I say it......ancient times.

Anyone?

#54. Posted by: skybox at April 2, 2009 9:32 AM

@#24/unladenswallow
--It's weird to see Juliet trying to save young Ben's life so ardently, I mean with the exception of Sayid and Jack, I don't know of anyone else who hates Ben more than Juliet does.--

Maybe it's because Juliet thinks that if she doent's save young Ben in 1977, then adult Ben would not save Juliet's cancer-stricken sister "in the future" (some time between 2001-2004, when Juliet was already living on the island)?
--I know that you thought the insurance fraud part was stupid, but hey, Kate was like 18 or 19 and her criminal schemes were not that well thought out then, so I bought it.--

And besides the insurance fraud, I thought her stepfather (the military guy) explained why Kate killed her biological father, when Kate was already on the run and visited her stepfather: Because when Kate eventually found out that her mother's boyfriend was really her biological father, she couldn't bare the thought that such a bad man would always be a part of who she was - and one of the main reasons why she always felt attracted by bad men - such as James/Sawyer (before his [apparent] redemption in Dharmaville). And why she couldn't stay with her husband, the police officer, who was a really good man (and when she called the marshal and asked him to leave her and her new life with her husband alone, he reminded her of her "bad [and restless] side" once again). And maybe why, in the end, she even kind of "sabotaged" her relationship with Jack ("post-island"), without telling him the truth about the promise she made to James/Sawyer before he jumped from the helicopter. So I agree with you that Kate's flashbacks weren't useless at all, they told us why Kate became the person we all came to know in season 1. But now, in season 5, Kate would never let a child or teenage boy die (and I don't think even season 1 Kate or "Kate on the run"-Kate would have let a child die, even Kate follows moral principles).

#55. Posted by: Naike at April 2, 2009 9:34 AM

Did anyone read USA Today yesterday? They were talking about a new show called "Flash Forward" that is being touted as the next "Lost." Weird, right?

#56. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 2, 2009 9:37 AM

Jin did go pretty ape-s--- looking for Sun when Jack and company first arrived. I think with the revelation that no plane crashed he's figured out that somehow Sun ended up somewhere else.

#57. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 2, 2009 9:37 AM

Mac, it's StaTler! Even a bunch of 5th graders can spell it! Although 5th graders aren't being awakened by newborns :)

Ben's memory loophole: Maybe he did remember Sayid which is why he knew that Sayid was the man for cold-blooded killing. After all, he was able to shoot a child.

Jin said Sayid was going north. According to the maps I could find nothing is north of Otherville except the future French camp. Sayid would not know that if he hasn't asked what year it was. Maybe Jin lied to cover for Sayid?

@5/rvcapitalist: I think it is unlikely that Hurley entered the numbers. He is currently a cook and doesn't appear to have any mad computer skillz.

On a side note: Why were there still Dharma food drops if the Others took over the island? Was/is Widmore funding Dharma?

Saying that is was the best Kate-centric episode is like saying it was the best Keanu Reeves movie. Not exactly award-winning stuff from the main actor.

@10/DocH: Jack making sandwiches reminded me of the scene where Ben made someone (Kate?) turkey sandwiches when we first went back to Otherville. Both were eerily calm despite the chaos around them. Is Jack becoming someone that Kid Ben uses as a role model?

A Richard-centric episode would be the last episode as he explains the entire history of the island in a 3 hour series of flashbacks.

#58. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 2, 2009 9:37 AM

Here is a tinyurl for the flash forward article. I'm so proud, it's my first!

http://tinyurl.com/c3ge4g

#59. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 2, 2009 9:46 AM

The show was okay-----

I don't think "losing Aaron" for a minute in a store would be that much of a scare to make Kate change her mind. To give up a child you raised for 3 years? No way.

But it's convenient--- these filler-in stories of Kate and Sayid were so ANTI-climatic. I think a lot of us expected more. Sayid would have gotten away from that bounty hunter (or get shot).

I dislike Kate stories, this is hopefully the only one this season.

@2 and @35

There were many "treks"--- Miles was probably told by Locke before he went down the hole. There are conversations that happen that we don't hear. That is the answer to all of the errors, and yes, I think it was just an error. If it's an issue for them (probably not) then they will just place that in somewhere.

So, the writers builds things up, we get off on it (which is fun) but it's still just a TV show.

I liked it when we get those quick movements at the end now--- that is what you remember.

#60. Posted by: Bus Said at April 2, 2009 9:50 AM

@ 49. Posted by: grimgravyX

I think she said something along the lines of 'It's FRIDAY, the doc is at the looking glass'

#61. Posted by: 74 at April 2, 2009 9:55 AM

@ 50. Posted by: genepools

I was just going to mention the same thing. Ben got shot on the left side, but wound was on the right side, even when Juliet was operating, but then the bandage seems to be favoring the left side. I think that's just your average goofs.

#62. Posted by: 74 at April 2, 2009 9:59 AM

Hey Mac - really liked the whole role reversal angle. Your high school lit teachers would be so proud.

No way Miles knows about the FDW. Writer's screw-up for sure. Actually, I always thought it more resembled a kid's pony ride wheel, but, hey, whatever.

Re. Miles & Hurley's convo - who says Ben doesn't remember getting shot by Sayid? Ben never said he didn't remember it. I think he damn well did remember it and went to great lengths to make sure Sayid was in the right time and place and frame of mind to make sure that he got a couple of caps popped into his scrawny Harry Potter wanna-be ass.

But if RA's comment that Ben wouldn't remember any of this is to be taken literally, then Ben's memory of his life on the island would begin when he wakes up, and in his mind, that's when he was "born." Just sorta kinda "sprang" into being.

And I'm sure every parent's heart skipped a beat in the Kate/Aaron supermarket scene. Funny how the woman who had wee Aaron looked a helluva lot more like his mom (Claihe) than Kate ever did.

And isn't Cassidy the lesbian madam from Deadwood? And Oldham (William Sanderson) from last week was also on Deadwood? Wonder if Tim Olyphant is working these days...

#63. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 2, 2009 10:00 AM

Like all the speculation around Older Ben "knowing" that Sayid was the one who shot him. Young Ben will simply not remember as Richard says. Maybe going to get healed is all part of the indoctrination process. I have speculated that all of the Others are brainwashed in some way. Young Ben will go back smarter, but not remembering everything, more confident that he can be a spy inside, and since he can still "experience" 10 or so more years of abuse from his dad--- all that evilness will come out, eventually helping with the Purge.

I also think the Losties will come out in 2007 as old people, having been with tho Others all that time.

#64. Posted by: Bus Said at April 2, 2009 10:01 AM

@60/Bus Said: "Miles was probably told by Locke before he went down the hole."

I get your point, but the fact is, Locke himself did not know about the FDW before he went down the well ... all he knew was that Ben did *something* down there to move the island and leave. Ben never told him anything about the FDW ... he just said he was leaving, Locke wasn't, and needed to go back up the Orchid elevator to meet RA and the rest of the Others.

So once again, it's either a script error, or Miles knows more than he's letting on ...

#65. Posted by: ealgumby at April 2, 2009 10:03 AM

Gotta love the transition at the end of the ep.

Richard carries little Ben into the Temple and then...

We see Ben in the bed waking up with Locke looking over him and welcoming him back to the land of the living.

Pretty cool.

#66. Posted by: add it up at April 2, 2009 10:04 AM

@51/CrispySeaplanes: The island gives one life-saving heal per customer.

#67. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 2, 2009 10:12 AM

I got the feeling -- maybe I'm reading into it -- that in the very last scene with "adult" Ben that when he awoke, he had "new" memories, much like Desmond after Daniel visited him at the Hatch.

#68. Posted by: DCMatt at April 2, 2009 10:14 AM

One problem with this storyline. Sayid is a natural born killer. He's murdered ... hell, I lost count. He's good at it. And he screws up killing a 10-year-old kid, or however old Ben is here?

#69. Posted by: Dave in Va at April 2, 2009 10:16 AM

What if Ben being 'healed' by Smokey is similar to the Frenchies being changed? They come out alive but very much not themselves.

Ben as a kid seems sad but not evil. He comes out as a sociopath. Is he the new Island security system?

RA definitely created a Monster.

#70. Posted by: EthansGirl at April 2, 2009 10:16 AM

GRAA, Mac. Highlight of my Thursdays.

When "Charles and Ellie" are mentioned, I immediately thought it was a reference to Mrs. Hawking. Now I see that may be wrong.

Are "Eloise" Hawking and "Ellie" (the gun-toting girl from the 50's) the same person? Has that been proven? Lostpedia makes no mention of any connection, so I wonder if it's been established that they are two separate people.

#71. Posted by: Gabriel at April 2, 2009 10:21 AM

Observations of a random kind:

1) It appears Jack is moving towards Locke's perspective on things. Will we find Locke now moving into Jack's role?
2) Why are they positing Kate with Ben's dad? Are they going to become an "item"?
3) I hadn't picked up on Sawyer's "where the hell did you come from?" to RA as being anything significant, but now that it's been pointed out here I'm reconsidering.
4) Regarding Ben not remembering "any of this", assuming he does come back before the Losties presumably foom back out again at some point, he will run into them again and he should still remember them in the future.
5) I'll say it again (said it last night in last week's conversation thread), I was wrong. Somehow D&C pulled out a complete surprise and resolved the situation with a scenario I (and I think most if not all of us) didn't even consider or know it was a possibility. I agree with Mac that it appears RA has brought HPB into the temple. Does that mean he will become like Rousseau's team did in some way?
6) How hysterical would it have been if Locke played a joke and said to Ben when he woke up "Hi, you've died. This is Hell and I'll be your host"?

I'm posting this, but it was only at 46 posts when I started reading/writing this. I'll likely find twice as much now...

#72. Posted by: LostedIt at April 2, 2009 10:26 AM

@65

Yes, that is right, Locke did not know about the FDW before going down the hole.

How about Faraday in 1977 who talks with miles. He saw an ex-ray/ sonar, didn't he of a wheel in the construction process.

So, again probably an error, Miles could have know about it and used Faraday's "theories"

(Time to "work" again.)

#73. Posted by: Bus Said at April 2, 2009 10:36 AM

Great episode, great recap.

Please ease up, all you Kate-haters. Evangeline Lily was smoking hot this epi!

#74. Posted by: DJ Ativanex at April 2, 2009 10:37 AM

@42. Posted by: Glostover conserning how long the numbers had been transmitted.

When I read your post I was thinking too that the numbers where heard during WWII, so I thought I would dig into it. I went back to the reviews from season one (there were way less comments to the reviews back then) and from the Numbers episode with Hurley's back story the man in Australia that Hurley went to see who was dead when he got there had heard the numbers 16 years earlier according to his wife which would have been 1988.

I thought it was kind of ironic that Jack's decision to let the Island take care of if Ben lived or died indirectly effected how Ben turned out. By not operating on Ben he caused Kate to resort to taking Ben to RA. Of course since Jack did nothing and that have been accomplished by him not being there it doesn't have anything to do with why he needed to come back to the Island.

#75. Posted by: Sue at April 2, 2009 10:40 AM

I think the Hurley-Miles conversation was further proof that the show is not about time travel but life after death.

In ancient Egyptian beliefs, once a person dies their soul is cast to the underworld where it works in the fields for the gods until a time of final judgment. At final judgment, a person's heart is weighed against a feather to determine if person will be reborn in the afterlife. If your heart was full of evil/sin, it would be heavy, and your soul (existence) would be destroyed.

That's what I got out of this strained, soap opera logic Kate episode. The writers are trying to fit the characters into the Egyptian afterlife myth. Her Cassy conversation was all about "mending" her heart. She had to confess her lies and correct her evil plans in order to lift the weight on her sins on her heart before final judgment.

The same is true for young Ben, who in order to be "saved" will lose his innocence (i.e. have true knowledge of his existence like Adam and Eve and the fruit of knowledge). In LOST, the knowledge and acceptance of your death can lead to power and control.

Locke knows he is dead when he says to Ben "Welcome to the Land of the Living (Dead)." With that knowledge, Locke is no longer a lost soul but more god-like like the other ghostly beings (Christian, Alpert).

#76. Posted by: welh at April 2, 2009 10:44 AM

When they showed Kate losing Aaron in the grocery store, my first thought was this can't really be what happened to Aaron. It would have been rather lame and also pretty cold hearted on Kate's part if she just left after brief search for him not knowing what happened to him.

#77. Posted by: Sue at April 2, 2009 10:49 AM

Re: #76 Wehl

I hope you're wrong! I'm not saying you are- I'm saying I hope you are. I like some of the Egyptian theory- but I don't want it "shoved" into a box trying to make it fit. Just me.

Also- I keep thinking about Jack and Juliets convo. He said he was there to "save" them. Is this why they came back?

#78. Posted by: youknowwho at April 2, 2009 10:50 AM

#72--LostedIt wrote "It appears Jack is moving towards Locke's perspective on things. Will we find Locke now moving into Jack's role?"

Seems unlikely that Locke would lose his faith and turn to science after coming back from the dead...

@Pieces of Arzt--one life saving heal per customer huh? Seems to be Jack's philosophy as well. Saved Ben once already--that's enough--Next!
Hmmm...lends itself to that Jack as Jackob thing...

"RA definitely created a Monster."
→ 70. Posted by: EthansGirl
RA taking Ben into the temple, hesitating before doing so as if considering the implications of his actions...It did have kind of a Frankenstein feel of creating something bad...

#79. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 2, 2009 10:52 AM

@63 ransomjackson pondered:

>And isn't Cassidy the lesbian madam from Deadwood? And Oldham (William Sanderson) from last week was also on Deadwood? Wonder if Tim Olyphant is working these days...

And don't forget the late Colleen Pickett (Paula Malcomson), Trixie on Deadwood.

#80. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 2, 2009 10:52 AM

@50: genepools - I agree, I could have sworn Sayid shot him in the heart. And as an assassin he certainly wouldn't have aimed anywhere else (except the head).

@51: Crispy Seaplanes - The question the might better be posed, and which Ben already asked himself, was why did he get the tumor in the first place? Considering he was now an "Other", which apparently has more significant meaning than any of us realized, he shouldn't have gotten the tumor unless...perhaps he was being penalized for going against the "rules" of the island. Perhaps Jack was in fact on the plane for the very reason Ben said - to rid him of his tumor. Then, when he didn't learn the "lesson" that the island was trying to teach him, he was banished from the island. Or was he? It would appear that perhaps his "I hope you're happy Jacob" statement before turning the FDW was his attempt at redeeming himself by doing the job assigned to Locke. He didn't "take" it from Locke as much as he relieved Locke of the responsibility and loss of life on the island caused by turning the wheel. Now, apparently, Ben has returned because he heard everyone needed to go back and thought this could be his way of finally redeeming himself or at least facing the judgement due to him. One could say he fled the island by turning the FDW or that he tried to save Locke from needing to do it. Either way, it didn't work.

@57: Crispy Seaplanes - Perhaps. Then again, it's only been, what, a day or two now since Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid arrived? Why couldn't there still be someone out there wandering around? I guess the assumption is the cameras would have picked them up by now.

#81. Posted by: LostedIt at April 2, 2009 10:52 AM

→ 76. Posted by: welh

Regarding Locke's line about "welcome to the land of the living"...
I took it more as a "Nyah, Nyah, you thought I was dead! Surprise! In your face!" kind of comment rather than one with any type of "We're really both dead" irony with deeper meaning behind it.

#82. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 2, 2009 10:56 AM

@71 Gabriel wondered:

>Are "Eloise" Hawking and "Ellie" (the gun-toting girl from the 50's) the same person? Has that been proven? Lostpedia makes no mention of any connection, so I wonder if it's been established that they are two separate people.

Never explicitly. But it's been hinted at, such as when Ellie-1954 is escorting Faraday to disarm Jughead (which I am told was the bomb), and he tells her she looks familiar, somehow. She thinks he's hitting on her.

#83. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 2, 2009 10:58 AM

I thought it strange that RA didn't know who Kate was. I know they haven't been in a scene together but you would think because he is "all knowing" he would know who she was? Thoughts?

#84. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 2, 2009 11:03 AM

@81 LostedIt at said:

>@50: genepools - I agree, I could have sworn Sayid shot him in the heart. And as an assassin he certainly wouldn't have aimed anywhere else (except the head).

The rule of cold blooded killers everywhere is "two to the body, then one to the head." Sayid is in danger of losing his union card.

#85. Posted by: Cecil at April 2, 2009 11:04 AM

@LostedIt/72.2: I think they are just showing Kate use her "I need something and I'm hot" powers. Let's hope so or else Ben's Beach Blanket Bingo with his stepmom becomes even more creepy.

#86. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 2, 2009 11:13 AM

@ 80 Cecil Rose posted "And don't forget the late Colleen Pickett (Paula Malcomson), Trixie on Deadwood."

Ah Cecil...good call.

Y'know, more than explaining the whole wacky time travel conundrums, this ep to me spoke more of growth of character.

Jack changing from "I can fix everything" to "You want mayo on that?"

Kate changing from "Gotta go gotta go gotta go right now" to Mother of the Year; A more stay-put-and-face-your-obligations persona I cannot think of.

Sawyer changing from long-haired shirtless bad boy to "I've done a lot of growing up over the last three years."

Ben changing from petulant brat to Master Manipulator.

Juliet didn't really change much, but she got a gig on another TV show so her future seems dubious at best.

Hurley is still Hurley. He's just growing in waist-size.

BTW - Saw an old episode of The Sopranos the other day. Miles was in the nut house with Uncle Junior. Slugged him one right in the kisser and broke his glasses.

#87. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 2, 2009 11:17 AM

@ #75. Sue wrote:
When I read your post I was thinking too that the numbers where heard during WWII, so I thought I would dig into it. I went back to the reviews from season one (there were way less comments to the reviews back then) and from the Numbers episode with Hurley's back story the man in Australia that Hurley went to see who was dead when he got there had heard the numbers 16 years earlier according to his wife which would have been 1988.

Thanks, Sue, for researching that. I guess the connection of navy with the words "stationed in the Pacific" just sent me back to WWII for some reason. So I guess Dharma did make the initial transmission.

#88. Posted by: Glostover at April 2, 2009 11:18 AM

When Ben woke up and saw Locke he woke up because he had just been healed ala RA and the Temple. He still has no memory of Sayid from 1977. As I said last week, I am sure that he was passed out and near death in 2007 not from Sun's whack to the head but because his 1977 self was flickering near death. He awoke when RA brought him into the temple for what I can only assume is some good ole' Smokey healin'. As RA said--he will not remember the events and he will lose his innocence. Therefore, 2007 Ben will not suddenly have memories of 1977 Ben's meeting w/Sayid. Now the question is--is post-Smokey fixin', not-so-innocent 1977 Ben going to run into Jack, Sawyer Kate etc...in 1977--THEN he will remember them he just won't remember anything from before he entered the Temple.

Maybe Miles knows about the FDW b/c Faraday saw it (as was evidenced in this seasons first episode when they were time travelling) and told them about it. Or as people are saying he knows more or the writers messed up which I think is unlikely. Miles and Hurleys conversations were spot on--loved it.

I really wished that Locke had yelled "SURPRISE!!!" when Ben woke up.

Can't wait for next weeks episode.

#89. Posted by: benlinusrocks at April 2, 2009 11:25 AM

Sayid needs to shack up with Rousseau. They've already bonded over electrified mattress torture. Living together while hiding from the Others couldn't be much worse. They can mull over their guilt while island breezes play through their fabulous hair and drink a cup of International Coffee.

Although, that leads me to another question- when does Alex get stolen? I'd like some closure to that scenario.

Where are Rose and Bernard? I miss Rose's way of shutting snarky people like Miles up. She puts up with no nonsense and I feel the Dharma-ites could use some of her attitude. I can just picture her getting after Juliet for wasting her talent in the motor pool while living in sin with Sawyer...
mmm-mmm-mmm.

And Jack, what're you doing? Oh yeah- making sandwiches. I think I might like this Jack a little more. Way better than tortured, bearded, we've got to go baaaaaack, Jack.

I may be addicted to this show, but in a good way. Thanks for all of the posts- you people make me smarter. :)


#90. Posted by: lardiea at April 2, 2009 11:35 AM

GRAA Mac! And after reading all of the comments I have to watch the show again. It seems I missed a lot last night. Like Juliet saying the dr. was at the looking glass. I didn't catch that. Also, there was a lot in this epi that went by fast.

@ 70 has some great ideas re: people changing. And the look on RA's face was definitely one of apprehension. Like taking a deep breath before going underwater. I think this temple is the key to the island.

And last: Hurley and Miles were great. I keep going back to the Hurley epi where he gets the Roger Workman Mini-Bus running. That still is one of my favorite segments. I can't hear Shambala without thinking of that episode.

#91. Posted by: dk at April 2, 2009 11:42 AM

@ 89 When Ben woke up and saw Locke he woke up because he had just been healed ala RA and the Temple.

I also think this is what happened. When I saw the way he woke up it was like he was somewhere else. I also loved the way Locke looked at him and said, "Welcome back to the living."

#92. Posted by: dk at April 2, 2009 11:46 AM

@ 90 lardiea posted "Although, that leads me to another question- when does Alex get stolen? I'd like some closure to that scenario."

Good point. Ben is about 11 in 1977 (born 1966?). Flight 815 crashes and +/- 17 YO Alex gets whacked by Keamy in 2004. So she would be born appx 1987, ten years hence.

If she was "stolen" as an infant, and CFW Danielle was her mom, who's her dad? Perchance a long-haired Iraqi ex-torturer on the run? Maybe Ben "stole her from Sayid as payback for shooting him?

Or is that just too far out there...

#93. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 2, 2009 12:10 PM

No, sorry. I take that back. CFW was already preggers when she came to the island.

"Never mind." - R. Rosannadanna

#94. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 2, 2009 12:12 PM

@→ 45. Posted by: LostLove at April 2, 2009 9:07 AM

I have a lot of unanswered questions and should obviously watch the episode again 'On Demand.' (Thanks, Comcast!)

Do you really get ABC shows On Demand through Comcast? We get absolutely nothing on Demand for ABC. We do not have a DVR though, do you?

#95. Posted by: Paulo at April 2, 2009 12:25 PM

Where was Faraday?

My guess: digging a well.

#96. Posted by: Jeff B at April 2, 2009 12:26 PM

GRAA Mac.
@44 Scooby_Dude Great comment about Richard.

HAMCATT!!: I think we have a new catch phrase.

I enjoyed the show last night even though it was about Kate (Booooo!). I think the last scene with Ben and Locke was a little too telenovela for me. I believe the writers are wise enough to know that you can not allow someone to sleep if they have a brain injury/ knocked out.

Where is my juicebox?

#97. Posted by: AbeFroman at April 2, 2009 12:30 PM

#45 Lostlove Clementine a Teenager...

I don't think she was a teenager, but more a preschooler. When Kate took baby Aaron to see Cassidy and bring Clementine the money, assumed it was shortly after they returned. (Aaron was still a baby and they had gotten their settlement.) She asked where Clementine was and Cassidy told her she was sleeping in her crib. Safe to assume Clementine was at least under a year old. When Kate arrived after the supermarket incident, that would be put the time at 3 years later. Interesting that they showed us right away that the Kate/Cassidy relationship had taken off in the 3 years. Their first visit was so tense and there seemed to be such distrust on Cassidy's part. Clementine greets Kate with a "Hi Auntie Kate".

#68 DCMatt Ben's reaction to Locke

I think that Ben's expression was strictly due to seeing Locke so alive. (And maybe sitting there with such attitude!)

Regarding Ben not remembering anything now that he will officially be an "Other"...wonder if he will have to go through something like that mind-altering treatment that Alex's boyfriend (can't remember his name off hand) had to endure? I'm not sure if they ever explained what Ben was trying to do to him during the light/imagery show he was enduring before he was rescued by Alex and the Losties... Did they ever explain that...can't recall... Will that prove significant down the road...? Who knows, but seems that since there are limited episodes left that all details and reveals are all coming to some end...

#98. Posted by: boodle at April 2, 2009 12:31 PM

Why would Juliet send Sawyer after Kate after she warned her off only to go and boo hoo to Jack? Hmmmm...

#99. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 2, 2009 12:35 PM

#100!!!

Did anyone notice that Sawyer got his scowl back in this episode?

#100. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 2, 2009 12:37 PM

up to post 40.

Just wanted to thank Mac for the fine review and give a thumbs up to the posters who figured out the time travel scenario!

#101. Posted by: berkyo at April 2, 2009 12:38 PM

Something that has bothered me after watching last night's episode... So, if Ben is now an "Other" and his innocence will be lost...things never being the same again...etc...what will happen with the Purge now...? Will he come back to Dharmaville as a "spy"? Will he still kill Roger in the van? Will he still wipe out all of Dharma as an Other spy? Wonder if him being shot is the event that may alter what happens with Dharma? I don't know... Just when I was on board with Whatever happened happened theory and now this...

#102. Posted by: boodle at April 2, 2009 12:38 PM

Farrady knew about the wheel, which was shown in the 1st episode this season. We do not know where in time he saw the wheel. I would assume that Miles knew about the wheel from Farrady, we just haven't seen that interaction yet.

#103. Posted by: Skulley at April 2, 2009 12:43 PM

Someone mentioning Hurley finding the VW Bus reminded me of something I thought of last night. I could just see Hurley running into Roger and saying somehting like, "Hey, you're the dude whose dead body I found in a VW Bus back in the future."

#104. Posted by: Sue at April 2, 2009 12:48 PM

Was quite surprised to hear that Kate's reason for returning to the island was wanting to find Claire. She would give up Aaron and violate her parole for that? I dunno, I figured it would be more along the lines of Ben telling her that the only way she could keep Aaron was to return to the island. Maybe he did remember that she saved him (and maybe that's why he served her that nice oceanside breakfast on hydra island).

Oh no, I can feel another acronym coming:
DBR – Does Ben Remember?
Or
WDBR -- When Does Ben Remember?

#105. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 2, 2009 12:49 PM

Alpert is an island manifestation of Smokey, much like Sheppard the elder is. He is not a real person; he is basically a ghost of someone who died on the island (or whose body came to reside on the Island). It's why he never ages and it's why he doesn't answer to anyone. It's also why he appears out of nowhere

#106. Posted by: timb at April 2, 2009 12:51 PM

@23 Julia re: Miles & Hurley acronym:

WSIF
We Said It First

#107. Posted by: Zoop at April 2, 2009 12:55 PM

Was there anyone else hoping that Juliet would punch Jack as soon as he came out of the shower?

I am still looking for my Juicebox?

#108. Posted by: AbeFroman at April 2, 2009 12:59 PM

Loved last nights episode. Cheered when Locke and Ben met face -to-face again.

Some questions about Ben joining the others as a teenager - now that he has been healed he will be an "other" and will not be able to return...does this mean he will not need to gas the Darma folks and kill his father, etc?

I think that by saving Ben as a child, Juliet and Kate may have saved him from committing many of the crimes he would otherwise commit. Therefore they have changed the "whatever happened..." rule. Possibly they have "saved Ben's soul" which may be relevant in him searching for judgement from the island in the present.

Can he be accused of murdering Locke when Locke is alive?

Also, by watching his child almost die and feeling guilt over his poor parenting, will Roger have a change of heart, sober up and become a constructive member of Darma society?

Is the sound of the temple door opening similar to the sound we hear when smokey is on the prowl?

Looking forward to next week

(p.s... hated the ending of Life On Mars - was even worse than the ending the British version had!!!)

#109. Posted by: weepict at April 2, 2009 12:59 PM

Another great episode.

The Richard Alpert thing seems to me that he was someone on the Island that died. This would explain why everyone else is aging, but Richard is not.

I also like the suggestions about Jack being Jacob, initially i thought this was off, but when you think about it, Jacob is 'protected' by Christian, who is his father, and they gathered his half sister Claire to join them, certainly the connection is there.

Another great review, it makes my Thursdays!

#110. Posted by: Visible Jacob at April 2, 2009 1:02 PM

I think that young Ben is brought back to Kate and Sawyer after he is healed but now he is offically an other and a spy in Dharmaville. He is physically a part of Dharma, but mentally/spiritally an Other. Maybe he even does some Other recruiting in Dharmaville. If Amy isn't secretly an Other that could explain how Ethan became an Other. The Others do seem to have a thing about taking children. Then again maybe he stays with the other and whatever happened didn't happen.

One thought on Ben remembering/not remembering the people he met in 1977. If a normal person met someone that looked almost exactly like someone they new 30 years ago they would probalby think something like, who this person looks just like so and so, I wonder if they are related, not hey this person must have done some time traveling back to when I was a kid. Of course Ben having lived on the Island and with the Others probably would think nothing about was strange about time travel and might even know it exists on the Island.

#111. Posted by: Sue at April 2, 2009 1:02 PM

→ 27. Posted by: richardalpert
"The David Lee Roth wig and open mouth drool are really getting on my nerves."

LMAO!

→ 90. Posted by: lardiea
"Sayid needs to shack up with Rousseau. They've already bonded over electrified mattress torture."

I have a feeling that maybe Sayid created Rousseau's hidey-hole. But do they meet in 1988? Does Sayid foom before then? We'll see.

→ 84. Posted by: lost2theworld
"I thought it strange that RA didn't know who Kate was. I know they haven't been in a scene together but you would think because he is "all knowing" he would know who she was?"

RA has never met Kate before because she was not part of the FOOM club who went to 1954. And though he knows a lot (especially about kohl) he's not all-knowing, as evidenced by his not knowing Locke when they first meet.

About the time travel posts that people remember things when they happen (in the past), I really think
that what you guys mean is that if you were to imagine "unkinking" a FOOMer's timeline and place it next to a straight timeline, then as the event (ex: Daniel talking to Des at the Hatch) is happening on the realtime concurrent timelines that would trigger the memory.

The opposing argument is that when someone goes back and changes something, it happened back THEN, and from then on and is not related to when the person remembers. From this position, people remember past events whenever they HAPPEN to, and it's thus portrayed on the show. I think the juxtaposition of the orig. event/subsqu. remembering on the show proper is confusing people to think that one leads to the other AS THEY'RE HAPPENING.

Pardon me while I get a tissue to shove up my nose!

CAUSED them to remember as it's happening in the past, they're just being shown remembering at whatever time they happen to remember.


#112. Posted by: freckles at April 2, 2009 1:03 PM

@76: welh - I have to say, I thought the opposite when Locke told Ben "Welcome to the land of the living". I thought Locke was mocking Ben, basically saying "You tried to kill me AGAIN and still here I sit before you alive and well"

#113. Posted by: LostedIt at April 2, 2009 1:04 PM

Haven't read all posts yet, but..

Are the partial-O6 responsible for Ben's demise? If they didn't bring him to Richard, would Ben still be innocent? Sayid had to shoot Ben and Jack had to refuse to operate in order for them to even consider bringing Ben to the Others.

Why is no one questioning the motor pool girl's surgical abilities? Further, why would Dharma not even have a surgeon on the island?

When did Kate find out her old friend Cassidy knew Sawyer? Was it at her door when she answered on her first visit? Or, did she know sooner? Why when Cassidy asked Kate why she lied to her (Cassidy), Kate said I had to? Apparantly she didn't have to that much if she immediately gave in to the truth.

If Kate's mission is to find Claire, why hasn't she even asked about her yet? It's been 3 years, so where is she? Further where are Rose/Bernard, other no-names, and Faraday? I think Kate came back for Sawyer now that she pawned off her subsitute for him, Aaron.

I like that they finally explained the time travel on the show, although I am still not convinced that those from the future (which is their present) can't change things.

Richard Alpert may in fact be traveling through time which is why he's not aging. Are these people normal, or do they have special abilities?

What is Jack's purpose? Where is Sayid? Where is little Ben's girlfriend? Will Kate hook up with Roger?

Loved how Kate got slighted by both Jack (Kate: "I liked the old Jack better"; Jack: "No you didn't") and Sawyer ("I'm doing this for her", meaning Juliet wanting Ben saved). Neither of them want her now.

That's all I got for now...

#114. Posted by: BEMH at April 2, 2009 1:10 PM

→ 47. Posted by: lost2theworld
I liked the dynamic between Kate and Cassidy. Women bonding over shared criminal/con-artist pasts and broken hearts. It's a new, less-weepy, less-annoying side of Kate. I loved too how Cassidy called her out on taking Aaron. Maybe she serves as Kate's conscience.

But Cassidy is a conman... woman.... person...con artist. I don't trust her. She's got it in for Sawyer and now knows too much about the island.
And I don't trust Claire's mom either. She looked like her brain was going a mile a minute while Kate was talking. Not thinking- OMG So glad Claire is alive. Remember she was Christian's lover. She may know more than we think she knows. And Kate just told her a lot more. I think these two are gonna cause trouble.

#115. Posted by: berkyo at April 2, 2009 1:12 PM

What did Ben's dad do for work before the island? He was upset to be a Workman when he arrived, just like Jack was...and he hinted towards being much more than a janitor last night.

The whole Ben losing his innocence thing seemed too Pulp Fiction (w/ Zed) creepy to me without more of an explanation.

#116. Posted by: CC_Boston at April 2, 2009 1:18 PM

@109 weepict said:

>Some questions about Ben joining the others as a teenager - now that he has been healed he will be an "other" and will not be able to return...does this mean he will not need to gas the Darma folks and kill his father, etc?

Very good question. If Ben 'never returns' how can he be working with his Dad at the time of the purge? Is this a change to "What happened, happened:?
___

>(p.s... hated the ending of Life On Mars - was even worse than the ending the British version had!!!)

I kind of liked it. I'm not likely to ever see the British version. Would you mind sending me a brief description of its ending to lostjunkie@earthlink.net?

Thanks.

#117. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 2, 2009 1:23 PM

@114: BEMH - It hasn't been three years. Kate just arrived on the island a couple of days ago, and since she arrived in 1977 I'm sure she realized she's not going to be finding Claire there. She's going to need to wait until she gets back to 2007 to meet up with her again.

Regarding Kate being dissed by Jack and Sawyer, all the more reason I'm a little concerned about her newfound association with Ben's dad.

#118. Posted by: LostedIt at April 2, 2009 1:24 PM

Re: Sawyer ("I'm doing this for her", meaning Juliet wanting Ben saved).

→ 114. Posted by: BEMH


I thought Sawyer was referring to Clementine when he said that like he was trying to make up for his failings as a father by trying to help this kid or something...

#119. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 2, 2009 1:38 PM

There has always been a disconnect with RA dressing so sharply (and in the same clothes pretty much) except when he first meets Ben. The grunge look was only seen by him then. Last night we saw regular Others and they looked pretty grungy. RA had already walked into Otherton to meet Sawyer dressed normally and had met with Dharma several times obviously looking good. Was the grunge for young Ben only or else what was that about?

Interesting that RA says in response to the question about Charles and Ellie - "I don't answer to them" He seems to hang with the Others/island protectors but has his own role. The leader gets orders from Jacob. Who does RA answer to?

It fits that RA worked against Ben in helping Locke "kill" his dad. Do they have different agendas and bosses but coexist anyway? Like Christian dissing Ben.

As a personal aside...
I say it all the time to anyone who will listen - what an unprecedented show! This THE TV show I will always remember and talk nostalgically about (to the annoyance of my 4 daughters I am sure) for the rest of my life. They will understand eventually when mommy lets them watch all the episodes in row when they are older.

#120. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at April 2, 2009 1:44 PM

@106/timb: Then how does Richard visit Kid Locke off the island?

Miles came in with knowledge of the island from Abbadon. It is conceivable that the FDW was known about from that. What was his original mission? Surely not the lame blackmail attempt that he pulled whne he first met Ben.

Didn't Locke tell 1950s Richard that he knew about Jacob? That would exclude Jack from being/becoming Jacob unless he goes back in time.

@116/CC Boston: Good question about Roger. He gets upset and becomes a drunk after learning that he will just be a flunky.

#121. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 2, 2009 1:45 PM

One thing that has bothered me since the second season was how well the children that were taken from the tail section fit so well into the other's camp. I would have been crying and wanting my mother/father. After last nights episode it makes me wonder if the others take the children into the "temple" and change them. That way they are not wanting to leave. It makes sense in my head, but as my wife would say, that doesn't mean a whole lot.

#122. Posted by: Kevin P at April 2, 2009 1:45 PM

Cecil,

Regarding actors from Deadwood, we would be greatly remiss if we forgot to mention Juliet's sister Rachel played by Robin Weigert aka Calamity Jane.

#123. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 2, 2009 1:48 PM

So, if Ben is now an "Other" and his innocence will be lost...things never being the same again...etc...what will happen with the Purge now...?
→ 102. Posted by: boodle at April 2, 2009 12:38 PM

Exactly! Ben is DI. The Others fix him. But things HAVE to be the same. Does RA simply return Ben to Kate and Sawyer? Do they just sneak him back in and let Juliette take credit for saving his life?

Cassidy is a...con artist. I don't trust her. She's got it in for Sawyer and now knows too much about the island.
→ 115. Posted by: berkyo at April 2, 2009 1:12 PM

Totally agree. And just another example of Kate's bad judgement (telling all the 06 secrets) to gain favor for herself. She's an idiot.

Also, when Kate was trying to convince Jack to help Ben, reminding him that he's done it before, didn't Jack reply "I did that for you"? As in: I'm done doing things for you? Ouch.

#124. Posted by: lovelost at April 2, 2009 1:56 PM

@114 BEMH
Regarding doctor in Dharma. I thought Juliet mentioned about that. The doctor was gone to "Looking Glass" station that day.

#125. Posted by: Sud at April 2, 2009 2:01 PM

first time poster

If Sayid built Roussou's hideout, would that explain her having a picture of Nadia? Am I remembering that correctly?

I suppose it goes against Miles' explanation of time travel . . .

#126. Posted by: lostjules at April 2, 2009 2:17 PM

With Locke's return and his line to Ben "Welcome back to the land of the living", can we assume he joins Dr. Dad Shepard, and Richard Alpert as the island's (only known to date) resident "walking dead"?

#127. Posted by: IslandHopper at April 2, 2009 2:38 PM

@124/lovelost: "Ben is DI. The Others fix him. But things HAVE to be the same. Does RA simply return Ben to Kate and Sawyer? Do they just sneak him back in and let Juliette take credit for saving his life?"

Excellent point ... this was bugging me. If Ben is not returned to Kate/Sawyer, how are they going to explain how he disappeared to Horace, Roger, et al? Will they be able to sneak him back before Roger notices he's missing?

#128. Posted by: ealgumby at April 2, 2009 2:51 PM

Sayid had Nadia's picture and when knocked out Roussou' found it while searching him.

#129. Posted by: Bus Said at April 2, 2009 2:52 PM

@122 Kevin P

"One thing that has bothered me since the second season was how well the children that were taken from the tail section fit so well into the other's camp. I would have been crying and wanting my mother/father. After last nights episode it makes me wonder if the others take the children into the "temple" and change them. That way they are not wanting to leave..."

Same thing with Scarfy Cindy, she looked very adapted to the Others when she talks to Jack(?) while he's in a cage.


@107 Zoop
re: WSIF We Said It First
haha, it can be!
HAMCATT!! is pretty catchy :)

#130. Posted by: Julia at April 2, 2009 2:56 PM

The main confusion now seems to be about whether little Ben returns to Dharmaville. I believe he will, but NOT until the Losties are gone. I think they have to fill certain roles in 1977 and when that happens, there will be another FOOM, reuniting everyone back in present time. Maybe that coincides with Sun / Frank / Christian turning the wheel again...becoming 'the incident?'
Or Faraday doing something?

#131. Posted by: 74 at April 2, 2009 2:56 PM

hopefully someone can help me...

Claire's mother was injured, right?
Was it ever revealed if or how she got better?

#132. Posted by: 74 at April 2, 2009 3:11 PM

@46

sweeeeeet! i've always wanted to be a meg! :-)

LOVE this blog.
y'all are awesome.

#133. Posted by: jbeezy at April 2, 2009 3:38 PM

I don't like the whole "Ben won't remember this" thing. I liked the idea that he DID know Sayid in 2004, and that in fact he knew way more when we first met him than we ever imagined. But it seems not.

Also, it kinda kills the theory that Ben becomes fascinated by Juliet because she was the one who saved his life when he was a kid (ie, the "You look just like her" line). Now we know that she WAS the one (or one of the ones) who saved his life - but he's apparently not going to remember it, so that can't be the reason he's besotted with her.

The whole memory loss thing just seems totally unnecessary, like they're trying to solve a problem that didn't even exist, in my mind.

Other than that, loved it. And Miles and Hurley's conversation was classic.

#134. Posted by: Jo at April 2, 2009 3:58 PM

@134: Jo - We don't at this time know what Ben will remember and what he won't. All we get is a vague "he won't remember this" from RA. Does that mean the part where he gets shot and healed? Anything from prior to entering the Temple? For that matter, will he return to the Dharma clan prior to the Losties leaving (I'm assuming they will at some point return to their time, which is supposed to be 2007)? If so, he certainly would remember them in the future when they crash land on the island in 2004. It's all kind of up in the air. At least for now.

#135. Posted by: LostedIt at April 2, 2009 4:39 PM

@118/LostedIt
By "it's been 3 years" I meant that's how long Claire has been on the island with all the rest since Kate left. Doesn't Kate think Claire would have either been found by now or presumed dead? You'd think Kate would ask "Did you ever find Claire? I'm here to rescue her!" Think Luke to Princess Leah. LOL.

#136. Posted by: BEMH at April 2, 2009 4:40 PM

#77 "When they showed Kate losing Aaron in the grocery store, my first thought was this can't really be what happened to Aaron. It would have been rather lame and also pretty cold hearted on Kate's part if she just left after brief search for him not knowing what happened to him."

That didn't happen so why would you care.

#137. Posted by: Lost is Found at April 2, 2009 4:55 PM

@134: Jo - Oh, and the whole memory loss thing actually solves my biggest beef with last week's episode. There were two possibilities I (and many others) saw that could happen from last week's shooting - either he would die and EVERYTHING would change or he would survive due to some hokey story about Juliet and Jack helping to save him, after which everyone agreed he'd certainly remember all of them and why would he cause such harm to them in the future? By taking him to what appears to be the Temple and having his whole being fundamentally changed (he won't remember some things or a lot of things - who knows? and he will "lose his innocence") creates a scenario that answers a lot of questions, like how was he allowed to survive the purge and become leader of the Others (because he actually becomes an Other as a result of his being saved, according to what RA said) and why did he become such a despicable person as a result (likely because his innocence was taken away, again according to RA although we don't know what that constitutes).

Really, I have to hand it to D&C. They've managed to tie in to so many things in this episode, even from different seasons, and after building up a scenario that didn't seem like it could be resolved to the viewers' satisfaction no matter how they did it, somehow pulled a rabbit out of their collective hats. It really shows how well-planned things can be on this show and how tight and detailed of a story/history they've developed and are trying to present to us over this 6-season series.

I'm constantly amazed at how I can go from a frustrated, recrimination-spouting non-believer one week to a praise-singing awe-inspired zealot the next week with this show. It's not the first time this has happened, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

#138. Posted by: LostedIt at April 2, 2009 4:56 PM

@136: BEMH - I was mistaken with my original reply to you. You're correct that it has in fact been three years since they left the island and three years have in fact passed on-island.

That being said, I'm beginning to be pretty darn convinced at this point that Rose, Bernard, and a bunch of the other Losties, Claire included, are not in 1977, assuming any of them even survived the attacks and the nose bleeds (and assuming Claire wasn't already dead before they left, which is up in the air). I don't know where the rest of the left-behinders, if they're still alive, are, but unless there's a big surprise coming that shows them, perhaps, to now be part of the Others in 1977, they're obviously in some other time period, perhaps 2007. I just don't know.

I think the show so far has been kind of presenting the Losties we've seen making it back to 1977 as being unique in their being there. Should Kate have at least asked them where Claire was? Perhaps. But there are a few things going against that question arising. Most important is the fact they (Jack, Sayid, Kate and Hurley) were the only ones from flight 316 that got sent back in time. So it would be likely that they'd deduce that the left-behinders they found in 1977 were also a unique aberration rather than the norm, just like themselves.

#139. Posted by: LostedIt at April 2, 2009 5:14 PM

@135 LostedIt: "We don't at this time know what Ben will remember and what he won't. All we get is a vague "he won't remember this" from RA."

I knew this is what would happen. The only one left on the island when the Losties arrive in 2004, from the actual Dharma Initiative in 1977 (as far as we know so far anyway), is ol' Bug Eyes himself. And now he won't remember anything? How convenient...

We know that Ben wipes out the Dharma Initiative well before 2004. Some others we have seen (like Charlotte, Eloise, and Charles Widmore, and possibly Miles and Faraday) somehow left or were banished from the island, so even if they did meet the O6 in 1977, they weren't on the island in 2004 to tell anyone about it, or, as in Charlotte's case, were probably too young to remember anything (obviously in Charlotte's dying moments she "remembers" something, and Widmore remembers things as well, as he makes a point to tell John he remembers him coming into the camp). So, anyone else who would have spent time around the Losties from 1974-1977 won't be around to tell anyone about it.

Other than Richard (and POSSIBLY some young versions of Tom Friendly, or Pickett, et al., if they are around in 1977 as "Others"), there won't be ANYONE left on the island in 2004 that COULD possibly remember the Losties having been there in 1977, whether the O5/6 remain in 1977 with the DI, or eventually jump back to 2007 (which is what I also think will happen by the way).

There is, however, the photo that Christian showed to Sun and Lapidus (however THAT managed to survive 30 years without being removed fromthat board isbeyond me though...).

#140. Posted by: Stocky at April 2, 2009 5:45 PM

First - I LOVE this series. Second - this is the first time I have NOT seen LOST in the Top Downloads on iTunes (where I keep up while living in England) and third, they better COMPLETE the whole series or I will be SUPER &(@^#)(*!#_)(!#(!_)#.

#141. Posted by: djrmsn at April 2, 2009 5:51 PM

Something to look forward to is seeing how Christian Shephard shows Sun the way back to Jin, whether she goes to him or Mr Shephard brings Jin and the rest of the gang to her. I'm am looking forward more to that than to see creepy Ben's story, which I do want to see.

#142. Posted by: grapekat at April 2, 2009 5:52 PM

@58. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 2, 2009 9:37 AM
>>A Richard-centric episode would be the last episode as he explains the entire history of the island in a 3 hour series of flashbacks.


Ohh, this would be FANTASTIC!

#143. Posted by: Kristi at April 2, 2009 5:53 PM

> > #95 ~ Paulo:

Our Comcast On Demand gives us the last 4 episodes of "Lost" ~~~ so we can watch them as many times as we like. When a new one shows up, the one from 4 weeks ago disappears. We don't have a DVR, darn it.

> > #98 ~ Boodle:

Thanks for helping me out with the "Clementine a Teenager?" mistake on my part. I apparently was not looking at the screen when Clementine opened the door and said "Hi, Auntie Kate" ~~~ I looked up when the camera was showing her from behind, and I had the impression that she was much taller than a little girl. Maybe it was just the camera angle.

Or maybe it was because I was ordering stuff off of Ebay while trying to watch the show. Multi-tasking should not be done during "Lost!"

Anyway, I watched it again this afternoon and saw that Clemmie is a little girl after all (although I still think that she shouldn't be that much older than Aaron if she was sleeping in a crib when Kate first showed up with baby Aaron at Cassidy's place.)

#144. Posted by: LostLove at April 2, 2009 6:16 PM

Have we ever figured out how much Juliet knows? I remember her telling Locke that RA was "very old" and she never seems surprised by anything. Does she know who/what RA is, and what the Island is, etc. etc.

#145. Posted by: BostonSteve at April 2, 2009 6:27 PM

I'm thinking (overthinking?) that Kate being a universal donor is more signifcant than random. Could there be a connection to the guys that Ben sent to Kate's house? The ones who wanted a blood sample, supposedly to determine if she is Aaron's mother? Was Ben looking for a donor back then - because he would need one now? Crazy, I know. LOST makes you think crazy things. Speaking of blood.....drip drip drip

#146. Posted by: lovelost at April 2, 2009 6:54 PM

> > #146: lovelost

"I'm thinking (overthinking?) that Kate being a universal donor is more signifcant than random. Could there be a connection to the guys that Ben sent to Kate's house? The ones who wanted a blood sample, supposedly to determine if she is Aaron's mother? Was Ben looking for a donor back then - because he would need one now?"

I like your idea. I'm also new here, and when I first saw one of your posts, I thought "I don't remember writing that . . ."

I didn't mean to steal your name, honest!

#147. Posted by: LostLove at April 2, 2009 7:09 PM

Wow... already 147...

#148. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 2, 2009 7:19 PM

→ 146. Posted by: lovelost
I'm thinking (overthinking?) that Kate being a universal donor is more signifcant than random. Could there be a connection to the guys that Ben sent to Kate's house? The ones who wanted a blood sample, supposedly to determine if she is Aaron's mother? Was Ben looking for a donor back then - because he would need one now? Crazy, I know. LOST makes you think crazy things. Speaking of blood.....drip drip drip

Isn't Jack also a universal donor? Didn't he give Boone some blood once....season 1, help me out guys.....My memory is failing me right now.

#149. Posted by: Skipper at April 2, 2009 7:20 PM

Hate to even suggest this, cause I don't really like the idea, but ...

What if Ben's loss of innocence equates to losing his soul? I suggest this, because of the still lingering feeling I have that HPB's whimpering cry for help to Jin somehow echoes Jacob's cry for help to Locke.

More than simply suggesting that Jacob is Ben, which doesn't seem to work at many levels (for one, RA knew who Jacob was in '54), I'm left wondering if Jacob collectively represents all the people who have lost their souls to the island. Perhaps as far back as Magnus Hanso and the Black Rock, but perhaps back to ancient times as well.

I know it's a stretch (and like I said, I don't really like the idea, because it seems just a bit too theological), but it does present the possibility that Jacob's cry to Locke actually did come from HPB's tortured soul. Maybe this is why Ben really shot Locke ... his now soul-vacant being did not want "redemption" at that time, and feared Locke might put the pieces together. It might also suggest Ben's "I hope you're happy now, Jacob" shout out as he turned the FDW was a sarcastic taunt ... but also set in motion events which might legitimately lead him to seek redemption, perhaps as a result of Alex's death and Locke's resurrection (i.e., Ben feels cheated by the island's version of Mephistopheles [Smokey?], and seeks virtuous revenge).

If this idea is even close to being right (highly unlikely, I admit), then the story will take a Faustian turn ... the looping of time is Ben's second chance to truly redeem himself, and free Jacob's captured souls ... if only the Losties do not interfere.

#150. Posted by: ealgumby at April 2, 2009 7:36 PM

Few things before I get deeply into it.

1. Mac -- Completely agree with the whole "best Kate episode" thing.

2. Jack is the most arrogant obnoxious asthmatic flab in the history of the island... maybe even world.

3. Kate looks MUCH BETTER off-island. Definitely less grimey.

4. I'm sure someone mentioned this before, but Sawyer called her freckles!

5. Know everyone said this -- but loved the Miles-Hurley conversation. We've been saying EXACTLY what they said for quite some time now. I'm sure others were able to too, but I could practically speak WITH Miles as he was talking.

6. I doubt Kate went back for Claire. It was probably just an excuse to satisfy the g-mom.

7. Probably mentioned before -- but Kate was TOTALLY HITTING ON Roger.

8. Speaking of Roger -- I wonder if Hurley/Sawyer/Jin realized that it was the same Roger they befriended in the future.

9. "In past seasons, Jack would have acted/reacted, Kate would have avoided making a decision, Sayid may have considered the long-range implications (he wasn't always cold-blooded), and Sawyer would have shot the kid himself." - Mac. -- Yeah. Right on. This is funny.

10. I don't know why I'm still numbering these.

11. Why doesn't the DI have a skilled doctor? I know Jack asked this same question and their response was that they used to have Ethan until Charlie shot him, but who do they have now? They couldn't possibly only be depending on Juliet. We just found out that they knew she was a doctor. Speaking of which, I find it so funny how they have DOCTORS doing degrating jobs such as whatever Jules is, and Jack being a WORKMAN. Although they have no idea he was a spinal surgeon, since he's clearly a bad test taker.

#151. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 2, 2009 7:37 PM

Btw -- GRAA Mac!

IGTNABB!!!

- ILBLxx.

LOL.

#152. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 2, 2009 7:40 PM

By the way, I can't wait till next week!!! Ah, I love Benjamin Linus!!! <333

#153. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 2, 2009 7:45 PM

Can you name the Dharma stations that have been revealed on LOST?

http://tinyurl.com/dnl9xa

If you haven't played sporcle before, it's quite entertaining. Great way to kill time.

#154. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 2, 2009 7:52 PM

And speaking of nicknames - Miles seems to be taking over Sawyer's role. He calls Hurley "Tubby" and Sawyer "Boss" and he referred to Sayid as an Iraqi something-or-other (can't remember).

→ 149. Posted by: Skipper: Good point about Jack being a universal donor, too. So, he and Kate have something in common after all.

#155. Posted by: lovelost at April 2, 2009 8:20 PM

Earlier I was asking about if it's known if Claire's mom coming out of a coma was ever revealed.

I was asking that because how do we know that is actually Claire's mom? Just because she went to a service for Jack's dad and said that? For all we know, she is a fraud and Kate gave Aaron to some swindler.

I'm putting her and Cassidy on the 'no good' list.

#156. Posted by: 74 at April 2, 2009 8:29 PM

→ 14. Mizzed: Widmore/Penny not really father-daughter?

My guess would be that Charles is Penny's father, but Eloise is not Penny's mother...that Charles traveled on & off the island during his 30 years there (he had to amass his monetary empire somehow) & had an "off-island" wife (Penny's mom).

→ 33. undaunted: No bullet exit hole in Ben's clothes?

I didn't see one either. And BTW, LYA (love your acronym)!

→ 44. Scooby-Dude: Maybelline's Instant Age Rewind Concealer

Now at your local Dharma-Mart...

→ 49. grimgravyX: Juliet explaining about the doctor:

Juliet said that the dr. was at the Looking Glass station & would be there until Friday.

→ 58. PiecesofArzt: Was/is Widmore funding Dharma?

If yes, that's quite interesting in light of finding out last night that Charles (Widmore) is w/Richard Guyliner's Others, who are hostile to the Dharma-ites.

→ 94. ransomjackson: "Never mind." - R. Rosannadanna

It's always something, isn't it... ; )

→ 108. AbeFroman: Was there anyone else hoping that Juliet would punch Jack as soon as he came out of the shower?

Yes. : )

Juliet was the one who suggested that HPB be taken to the Others/Hostiles...probably based on her knowledge of RA from her time w/the Others in the early 2000s? But there's no Ethan w/the Others to perform surgery, so did she see RA perform some island voodoo healing during that time? And if there's island voodoo healing that can mend HPB's wound (I almost typed mend a broken heart...far too Bee Gees), then why would it not mend the pregnancy problem? Is the island, if we accept it as being a sentient being, trying to get rid of everyone so it can be unpopulated? "I vant to be alone..."

#157. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 2, 2009 8:45 PM

@157/Alaïs_Longthought: "why would it not mend the pregnancy problem?"

At the risk of being very politically incorrect ... could a malevolent Smokey (freed by "The Incident") be abducting their (child and mother) souls just before birth?

#158. Posted by: ealgumby at April 2, 2009 9:25 PM

Okay, I have read the first 30 or so comments. Please forgive me if this has been mentioned.

Jack's refusal to help Ben actually helps make Ben who he is. Ben looses his innocence in getting help from the Egyptian god RA. If Jack had helped, then Ben would have been saved and Kate would not have taken Ben to RA, and Ben would not have lost his innocence. I hope that makes sense. So, Jack in his absolute refusal, helps create the monster that Ben is. You should have helped Jack.

#159. Posted by: onelostdude at April 2, 2009 9:43 PM

→ 158. ealgumby: A malevolent Smokey (freed by "The Incident") be abducting their (child and mother) souls just before birth?

Hmm...there's a sea creature in Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry that eats souls. Not sure if this corresponds to any figure from Celtic mythology...

#160. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 2, 2009 9:44 PM

Who is Charles Widmore? He was with Richard and the Others for many years, yet the secondary protocol on his freighter had the Dharma logo on it (and it's been theorized he's been doing the Dharma drops). Imagine that, a Lost character whose allegiances are unclear.

Jack's not being entirely honest with Kate. Didn't he return to the island
(1) to save the ones left behind, and
(2) to pursue the possibility of bringing his dead father back to life?

Non-Lost tidbit: According to Yahoo, Binghamton, NY, is the best affordable place to retire in the country. Obviously nobody from Yahoo has ever been to Binghamton (sorry, couldn't resist a gentle jab!)

#161. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 2, 2009 10:06 PM

GRAA Mac! Two thoughts: 1) who says Ben doesn't recognize Sayid (and the others) when Danielle deposits him at the hatch? Just because he doesn't TELL them he recognizes them, doesn't mean he doesn't. 2)I took RA's "I don't answer them" to mean he doesn't answer to the "leader" of the others. Perhaps he only answers to Jacob himself. Perhaps he is an even higher authority.

It was a long day at work, I'll be back at some point this weekend.

#162. Posted by: FenwayBen at April 2, 2009 10:14 PM

@112 freckles "RA has never met Kate before because she was not part of the FOOM club who went to 1954. And though he knows a lot (especially about kohl) he's not all-knowing, as evidenced by his not knowing Locke when they first meet."

When I said that RA was all knowing I was thinking of the scene where he approached Locke on the hill with a file full of info about his dad. This was when the others were looking for Locke to take over for Ben. He seemed to be informed in a Ben-like way then so I would imagine his knowledge would apply to all losties and not just Locke.

@115 berkyo "I think these two are gonna cause trouble." re: Cassidy & Claire's mom

I agree. I just thought that the dynamic of Kate feeling that she could open up to these two virtual strangers interesting. Freckles has never made good decisions.

WDBR? I think he will remember more than most think. RA's vagueness will allow it to be.

#163. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 2, 2009 10:18 PM

@ 15. Lost in ca: I thought the guy escorting Kate and Sawyer through the jungle was Mr. Friendly, but that was just a hunch.

#164. Posted by: FenwayBen at April 2, 2009 10:23 PM

@164 FenwayBen: "I thought the guy escorting Kate and Sawyer through the jungle was Mr. Friendly, but that was just a hunch."

I thought the same thing, as he did vaguely resemble Tom...

#165. Posted by: Stocky at April 2, 2009 10:37 PM

I think that Ben could have definitely remembered Sayid shooting him. Remember in Sayid's episode at the end Ben told him " I know the real you and what you're made of" maybe that is because he knew very well that Sayid shot him as a kid. Maybe Richard is saying that Ben will never remember anything about the transformation or what actually happened in the temple.

#166. Posted by: MFS at April 2, 2009 10:56 PM

Do any of you guys think that when the others gave Michael the list of people (Hugo, Kate, Sawyer, and Jack) it had something to do with the fact they already knew who they were from the 1977 experiences? Maybe that is how they knew so much about them like Richard's file on Sawyer that he gave to Locke when he needed to kill his dad.

Also I wonder if you went back on the tapes if there ever was a picture of those guys in the dharma initiative on the wall somewhere (like we saw with Christian). That would have been crazy to have a clue like that in the show hidden.

#167. Posted by: MFS at April 2, 2009 11:06 PM

Just cleaning up here, boss....

→ 18. Chris: Is it just me or was that "The Orchid" maybe before it was built by the Dharma"

Fairly sure it's the temple, the one central place on the island still not shown to the viewers.

Whatever the central secret of the island is- massive unknown energy, secrets of the universe, mind of god, big bowl of butterscotch pudding- it's likely found in the temple.

→ 27. richardalpert: "I'm also convinced that Locke is a ghost or smoky image since he was dead on the airplane ala Christian Sheperd."

Do ghosts like tasty mangoes? Perhaps they suffer from a vitamin C deficiency?

→ 35/ealgumby: "So the question remains ... how DID Miles know about Ben turning the FDW? Either this is a production error (which I'm way past believing is impossible)"

and...→ 63.ransomjackson: "No way Miles knows about the FDW. Writer's screw-up for sure."

Widmore knew about the function of the Orchid and that Ben would try to move the island, as he revealed to key members of the freighter team in the "second protocol" Keamy opened.

Faraday was also aware of the contents of that protocol, as we saw in his conversations with Miles and Charlotte on the beach, so if he told two friends, and they told two friends, and so on, and so on...

→ 51. Crispy Seaplanes: "speaking of Richard and Ben at the temple--why couldn't Richard take him there to heal the tumor?"

Cuz the island "gave" Ben the tumor for his leading the Others away from their true purpose. Under Ben's leadership, the tribe became book club reading, chicken dinner eating suburbanites- remember RA and Mikhail's sarcasm on Ben's value as Number One?

→ 76. welh: "I think the Hurley-Miles conversation was further proof that the show is not about time travel but life after death."

We hereby award you two bonus points for both being consistent and persistent.

→ 109. weepict: "Some questions about Ben joining the others as a teenager - now that he has been healed he will be an "other" and will not be able to return...does this mean he will not need to gas the Darma folks and kill his father, etc?

I think that by saving Ben as a child, Juliet and Kate may have saved him from committing many of the crimes he would otherwise commit. Therefore they have changed the "whatever happened..." rule."

We reached that conclusion, how, exactly?

RA already explained to Locke in 1954 that future Other leaders are identified as children, then groomed for the role.

Nothing we've seen so far prevents Ben from returning to Dharmaville and assuming his role as son of WorkMan, while all the while counting the days until he can kidnap Alex, gas his father, and make the first selection for the Others Book Club.

→ 120. Addicted to LOST: "Interesting that RA says in response to the question about Charles and Ellie - "I don't answer to them" He seems to hang with the Others/island protectors but has his own role. The leader gets orders from Jacob. Who does RA answer to?"

I know, I know, he's dead/a ghost/a pirate/an ancient Egyptian. Whatever he is, he functions as sort of a high priest for the Others, someone who maintains their mystical/spiritual connection to the island and selects their future leaders, while not attempting to actually run the day to day minutae himself.

I predict he's got a cool pad hidden in the temple, complete with jacuzzi, water bed, high def Plasma and a autographed copy of the Dalai Lama Perpetual Calendar which he uses to keep track of how many days are left until he can build and burn down the next Wicker Man.

→ 121. PiecesofArzt: "Didn't Locke tell 1950s Richard that he knew about Jacob? That would exclude Jack from being/becoming Jacob unless he goes back in time."

Since they're not going to live the rest of their lives in 1977, future time jumps seem inevitable, no?

→ 132. 74: "Claire's mother was injured, right? Was it ever revealed if or how she got better?"

Claire's Mom's story is a destiny sandwich, hold the mayo. She is injured in a car crash and goes into a coma, depriving Claire of her advice and help when later, Claire finds herself pregnant. This sets into motion the Richard Malkin psychic/not a psychic comedy routine that puts Claire on the Oceanic flight.

Her medical condition brings Christian to the island to meet Claire. Later, he will return again to attempt a reconciliation with Claire, only to be rejected by Mean Auntie. This propels Christian to his pivotal bar scene with Sawyer.

Once the Losties are on the island, she awakens from her coma, to fulfill her role to 1) inform Jack that Claire was his sister and Aaron his nephew, and 2) be available for Ben to manipulate to get Kate back to the island. Shazam!

→ 140. Stocky: "There is, however, the photo that Christian showed to Sun and Lapidus (however THAT managed to survive 30 years without being removed fromthat board isbeyond me though...)"

The picture was in the Processing Center, boarded up and unused by the Others. Screencaps of Christian taking the picture off the wall show a jumble of pictures on the floor, fallen off over the years.

→ 150. ealgumby: "Maybe this is why Ben really shot Locke ... his now soul-vacant being did not want "redemption" at that time, and feared Locke might put the pieces together."

Maybe, or perhaps he was preparing Locke for his own initiation and journey. Locke could have gone to the island as a child- like Ben- and been prepared for his leadership role, but didn't.

Ben was shot, and was healed by the island. So was Locke. Ben had to kill his father. So did Locke. Ben had to confront Jacob. So did Locke. Ben had to turn the wheel. So did Locke.

→ 58. PiecesofArzt: "Was/is Widmore funding Dharma?"

The Magic 8 Ball says most likely probably, with help from Alvar Hanso, Mr. Paik and others. How could he fund Dharma and father Penny in the 70's, while possibly also still on the island as Other Man Numero Uno?

Big Honking Guess says Widdy turned the FDW, exiling himself from the island. Perhaps his journey to Tunisia sent him back in time, allowing him to lead parallel lives off-island and on-island?

→ 163. lost2theworld: "When I said that RA was all knowing I was thinking of the scene where he approached Locke on the hill with a file full of info about his dad."

Those files were obtained from Mikhail's diligent work at the Flame, not from time-jumping, ghost-haunting, booty-shaking leg work.

#168. Posted by: Mizzed WorkMan at April 3, 2009 12:30 AM

→ 168. Posted by: Mizzed WorkMan

I have to say that though your post was mucho long, you did space it so it was easy to read and ALSO, the content was highly entertaining!

->"Do ghosts like tasty mangoes?"

LMAO! They like tasty Kahunaburgers, too.

->"Under Ben's leadership, the tribe became book club reading, chicken dinner eating suburbanites- remember RA and Mikhail's sarcasm on Ben's value as Number One?

ROTFLMAO! But admit it, if you were an Other, would you rather muck about chasing boars and climbing coconut trees or sleep in comfy bungalows with tasty chicken dinners and Dharma Merlot? While the RAs and Patchys of the world are into their crossbows and running through the forest with their hair streaming in the wind, I know I'd take Otherville over the Rousseau shack any day.

->"→ 76. welh: "I think the Hurley-Miles conversation was further proof that the show is not about time travel but life after death." --->We hereby award you two bonus points for both being consistent and persistent."

A gold star, too, no?

->"The picture was in the Processing Center, boarded up and unused by the Others."

Thank you, los peeps confusing the Processing Center with New Otherton is getting very JWTB.

-> "Ben was shot, and was healed by the island. So was Locke. Ben had to kill his father. So did Locke. Ben had to confront Jacob. So did Locke. Ben had to turn the wheel. So did Locke."

Well when you put it that way, sounds like Locke is indeed on the rise, orange smiles and all.

#169. Posted by: freckles at April 3, 2009 3:23 AM

@146 and 149 I was wondering if I was the only one who caught the that blood donor reference. Yes, way back in season one, the episode where Boone dies, we find out that Jack is a universal blood donor just like we found out Kate is in this episode. Furthermore, at the beginning of season three when you first see Jack, Kate, and Sawyer on Alcatraz, you see both Jack and Kate remove bandages from their arms when they first wake up, implying blood samples were taken, but you do not see Sawyer remove any bandages at all. All these things are clearly meant to be clues, of what I can only wildly speculate.


#170. Posted by: unladenswallow at April 3, 2009 4:36 AM

→ 168. Posted by: Mizzed WorkMan

Excellent post ~~ lots of insights, and very funny. Thanks for 'cleaning up!'

And here's the best synopsis I've seen that sums up "Lost" in a nutshell:

"Ben was shot, and was healed by the island. So was Locke. Ben had to kill his father. So did Locke. Ben had to confront Jacob. So did Locke. Ben had to turn the wheel. So did Locke."

#171. Posted by: LostLove at April 3, 2009 5:35 AM

Ooops. Double post above ~ can't edit it away. Sorry . . .

#172. Posted by: LostLove at April 3, 2009 5:38 AM

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first post.

I re-watched the episode last night and couldn't shake the awkward feeling I had when RA was looking directly at Kate and she quickly turned away as if he was looking through her and she got really uncomfortable. Did anyone else notice that? It was just too strange and caught me off guard. Maybe I'm just looking too much into it. Did anyone else think it was odd?

Thanks to everyone for being so insightful every week!

#173. Posted by: DesmondsGirl at April 3, 2009 8:03 AM

@ undaunted - 33
"GGTW...gotta go to work."

GGTS... gotta go to school. =]

#174. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 3, 2009 8:04 AM

@ davidrh - 34
"Loved the Hurley and Miles “who’s on first because the chicken AND the egg are on second” routine!"

Speaking of which came first -- the chicken or the egg, in LOST perspective, which one would be first?

Two chickens are born from an egg in 2004, goes back in time 2007 to 1492, and makes a new chicken who will be the "first" chicken.

So which came first? The chicken or the egg?

#175. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 3, 2009 8:10 AM

@ ealgumby - 35
"@2/Alaïs_Longthought: "How did Miles know about Ben turning the FDW?"

How did he know about Ben turning the wheel? It doesn't make sense ..."

I don't even think Locke really knew what Ben did until he did it himself. So basically, he couldn't really tell anyone.

#176. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 3, 2009 8:13 AM

@ ealgumby - 35
"Miles could not have known about the FDW before then ... even Locke didn't know how Ben moved the island until he fell to the bottom of the well. And no one who saw Locke go down the well knew what was down there."

In reference to my previous post, sorry I didn't read that far yet. I probably shouldn't do that.

#177. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 3, 2009 8:20 AM

Hi All,

This is floating around, it's a morph of HPB into The Bug-Eyed Wonder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XiGx7GNgXQ

Shows what a fantastic job they did casting Baby Ben.

#178. Posted by: Glostover at April 3, 2009 8:24 AM

I don't think that was Claire's mum either. Imposter!!!

#179. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 3, 2009 8:25 AM

I meant "impostor".

#180. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 3, 2009 8:26 AM

@168 Mizzed WorkMan: "The picture was in the Processing Center, boarded up and unused by the Others. Screencaps of Christian taking the picture off the wall show a jumble of pictures on the floor, fallen off over the years."

That's my point -- it seems unlikely that the Others, after eliminating the DI, would not have made use of the procesing center for something. Clearly the Others used the dock, as they certainly used the submarine. I would think that Juliet would have found it very strange that the first thing she sees upon arriving at the island is a boarded-up building. I don't remember if it was boarded up when Juliet arrived, but we know the processing center is close to the dock, as we see it when Ben and Roger arrive on the island for the first time. Unless I am mistaken, and that was not the processing center. But if the processing center is not at the dock, and it is not in New Otherton (as some on here suggest), there just where exactly is it that it the Others would not have found a use for it after the purge??

#181. Posted by: Stocky at April 3, 2009 8:30 AM

and Ben was a motherless child and so was Locke. And for the time, so is Aaron.

Speaking of Aaron...Kate gave him up to Claire's mother. I believe Kate; she is returning to the island to find Claire for Aaron. I am touched by her unselfish gesture, her sacrifice. She knows what it is to love a child and she has come to realize that she is not entitled to Aaron until she has exhausted efforts to reunite Aaron with Claire who loves Aaron every bit as much as Kate does.

Whether Claire lives or not, Kate will forever be Aaron's Auntie Mama.

Among those who returned to the island, Kate is the only one whose motive is love.

Kate is attempting a "course correction". And among the returnees, she is also the only person who knows for certain precisely why she is back on that island, consequently she is not waiting for "signs" for what to do next. She is waiting for the opportunities that will arise to assist her in finding Claire.

#182. Posted by: undaunted at April 3, 2009 8:32 AM

@ 168 Mizzed WorkMan posted: "Widmore knew about the function of the Orchid and that Ben would try to move the island, as he revealed to key members of the freighter team in the 'second protocol' Keamy opened. Faraday was also aware of the contents of that protocol, as we saw in his conversations with Miles and Charlotte on the beach, so if he told two friends, and they told two friends, and so on, and so on…"

While I agree that something along those lines could very well have happened, I also think that we can if and suppose and mighta and coulda-ed all day long.

All we really have is what we see during the 48 minutes of show. That's canon. Everything else is fluff. The on-line stuff, the Lost Experience (excellent highly-recommended recap by Lost Blog regular and TVFodder House blogger Cecil Rose), the captioned reruns, video and board games…none of that stuff really counts. So as far as I'm concerned, if it ain't been shown, or at the very least strongly implied, then it didn't happen.

It seems that Faraday knew/knows about the FDW, but how and if that knowledge was passed on to Miles has yet to be shown. TPTB may yet reveal that conversation in a Miles or Faraday-centric ep, if only to cover up their mistake, which I'm still convinced is what happened. Funny how you can write yourself out of a corner in a time travel story...

#183. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 3, 2009 9:07 AM

Wahooo!!!
Two bonus points and a gold star!

I can now go back and change my first grade school transcript.

#184. Posted by: welh at April 3, 2009 9:54 AM

How did Myles know about the Donkey wheel? Other than Ben and John, know one else knew. He knew that John had to do something but I don't think John ever mentioned that Ben turned the wheel and I don't think John ever mentioned that he has to turn it.

#185. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at April 3, 2009 10:00 AM

Has anyone come up with a good explanation as to how the gun shot to little Ben's chest moved from just left of center line (Fatal before he hit the ground) to lower right side (long drawn out lung puncture/collapse death)

#186. Posted by: steve at April 3, 2009 10:07 AM

And speaking of "48 minutes of show..."

Was it just me or did it really really really really seem like there were an awful lot of commercials during this particular episode? Anybody got a stopwatch? Sure seemed ad-heavy to me.

#187. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 3, 2009 10:18 AM

The first part of this is interesting. (the part about the comic book and time travel).

http://tinyurl.com/c4mocn

#188. Posted by: Skipper at April 3, 2009 10:35 AM

@168 Mizzed Workman
"I know, I know, he's dead/a ghost/a pirate/an ancient Egyptian. Whatever he is, he functions as sort of a high priest for the Others, someone who maintains their mystical/spiritual connection to the island and selects their future leaders, while not attempting to actually run the day to day minutae himself."


Much like the Old Testament prophets who would select the kings of Israel but did not answer to them but to a higher authority.

#189. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 3, 2009 10:38 AM

So how many people, soaking wet from a shower just throw a T-Shirt on?

#190. Posted by: WET JACK at April 3, 2009 10:40 AM

Where is Vacc?

Vacc... do you think RA is taking Ben into the temple to turn him into a Jinn? whatever happened with that theory? "He'll never be the same" "He'll be one of us", "what are you?" Ben: "I came back to be judged".

#191. Posted by: Skipper at April 3, 2009 10:48 AM

I posted on another blog as well - Just a few thoughts

Is it possible that is only one set of Others? They simply occupy the bodies, or an image of the bodies, of those that they come across. it seems that Charles Widmore, in 1954, was wearing the uniform of a U.S. Army soldier named "Jones". We have seen Others in rag tag clothing like clothing that would have been worn aboard a 19th century slave /mining ship. Could this also be a good reason why RA wanted Paul's dead body to bring back to "His People", and possible why Ben left Alex's Body out in the open, and did not attempt to take it along for burial. Could Ben have thought that smokey might take her body back to the temple? the whole possession theory might also provide an explanation for Dannielle saying that her crew was infected and killed them all including Robert. If Dannielle could somehow detect the presence of "Otherness" in her crew, perhaps the reason that she never sees them is that they are avoiding her out of fear.

I also wondered why Juliet would allow Kate to take Ben without the oxygen tank. If he went into convulsions once from a lack of oxygen, is it reasonable to assume it could happen again?

And I still can't figure out how Ben's wound moved from a fatal location to potentially fatal one.

Comments... Help...

#192. Posted by: steve at April 3, 2009 11:03 AM

@ 168. Posted by: Mizzed WorkMan

"Those files were obtained from Mikhail's diligent work at the Flame, not from time-jumping, ghost-haunting, booty-shaking leg work."

O.K. but I find it hard to believe that he would stop at getting info on Locke only with all of the other Losties running around his island. Would he really just dismiss the rest as unimportant without checking them out? Especially those who had also been a nusance in '77. If you're saying he's not time-jumping, are you saying his time line is linear?

*************************************

also @168. Posted by: Mizzed WorkMan

"Ben had to kill his father. So did Locke."

Actually Locke had Sawyer do it, right?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

@182 undaunted.

"Among those who returned to the island, Kate is the only one whose motive is love."

We haven't seen Hurley's motive but, dude, how can it not be love? ;-) And Sun came back to find her husband, who she loves.

#######################################

OK, two new acronyms

HDMKATFDW - How Did Miles Know About The FDW

BGM! - Ben's Gunshot Moved!

#193. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 3, 2009 11:06 AM

Even better OMG...BGM!

#194. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 3, 2009 11:16 AM

#119 crispy Seaplanes
I thought Sawyer was referring to Clementine when he said that like he was trying to make up for his failings as a father by trying to help this kid or something...

I raised an eyebrow also when he said this. I have yet to re-watch, but there was another piece of dialogue earlier in the show that had an ambiguous pronoun. Just can't remember the person who said it. Very interesting...although not a clue as to what that may mean...

#195. Posted by: boodle at April 3, 2009 11:36 AM

#175 ilovebenjaminlinusxx
So which came first? The chicken or the egg?

According to Miles...depends on what is the chicken and the egg's "present" at the time of the question...

#196. Posted by: boodle at April 3, 2009 11:39 AM

"do you think RA is taking Ben into the temple to turn him into a Jinn? whatever happened with that theory?"
→ 191. Posted by: Skipper at April 3, 2009 10:48 AM

If Jin goes into the temple will he turn into a Jinn?
Maybe Ben will turn into a Benn instead...

ok I'll stop now

#197. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 3, 2009 11:43 AM

Like many other posts have wondered, I am also a bit baffled about the different entry points of the Sayid's bullet. It was pretty clear that the bullet hit right in the middle of young Ben's chest...probably through the heart. He dropped to the ground as if he were dead before he hit the ground. Production error...perhaps, but that is a pretty big production error, if you ask me.

#198. Posted by: boodle at April 3, 2009 11:48 AM

All the abandoned processing center arguments seem to fall flat based on the bus ride to processing center for Jack,Kate,Hurley. Seems like it is at what becomes new otherton.

All epi's have always been:
42minutes +/- 30 seconds

#199. Posted by: mtncbn at April 3, 2009 12:03 PM

@151: ilovebenjaminlinusxx - Funny, I knew that was you writing that post as soon as I saw "Jack is the most arrogant obnoxious asthmatic flab in the history of the island... maybe even world.". I scrolled down and laughed when I saw your name at the end. When did Hurley, Sawyer, and Jin befriend Roger in the future? From what I recall he died by Ben's own hand in the purge.

@161: Scooby-Dude - I don't think Jack ever knew anything about people coming back to life, and actually come to think of it he still has no idea that Locke is alive, so I'd say there's no way that's a reason he returned to the island. My perception is that he came back both because the people left behind were in danger and because his life off-island was such a disaster.

@168: Mizzed WorkMan said "Her medical condition brings Christian to the island to meet Claire. Later, he will return again to attempt a reconciliation with Claire, only to be rejected by Mean Auntie. This propels Christian to his pivotal bar scene with Sawyer." - I don't recall Christian coming to the island prior to his arrival in a wooden box?

#200. Posted by: LostedIt at April 3, 2009 12:27 PM

@77, Sue: "When they showed Kate losing Aaron in the grocery store, my first thought was this can't really be what happened to Aaron."

The thought that Kate left Aaron lost in a supermarket while going off to the Island didn't even enter my thoughts. :)


*********

@79, Crispy Seaplanes: "Seems unlikely that Locke would lose his faith and turn to science after coming back from the dead..."

Since it happened to Locke, who has a need to belief and not reason, I agree. However, would this happen to a more scientifically minded person, then it would probably have the opposite effect. Science is not about denying what happens, it is about trying to describe what happens. So if I were to die and somehow be returned to life, I think (although it's hard to judge one's actions in such a radical situation) I would try my best to figure out what on (or off) earth happened.

********

@84, lost2theworld: "I thought it strange that RA didn't know who Kate was. I know they haven't been in a scene together but you would think because he is "all knowing" he would know who she was? Thoughts?"

RA is hardly all knowing. For example, in "Jughead" (did we ever find out the reason for the name of that episode?) RA doesn't know Locke, in "LaFleur" RA doesn't know Sawyer. Now, perhaps I misunderstood, and you're trying to say that Sam Becket jumped into RA and he's Al-knowing, then I might agree. So there's something funky with the holographic projection thingy and Al keeps appearing as Christian Shepard. O boy! Let's set right what once went wrong.

*****

@87, Ransomjackson, re character growth: Character's changing (wouldn't necessarily call it growing) over time in a tv show is great, but there's always the danger that it happens suddenly, instead of naturally. I think Jack's change from annoying fixer to annoyingly meek manipulatee came quite naturally, also Sawyer's change is believable imo. He was already on the road to redemption so to speak when he arrive in 1974, so given 3 quiet years in between then and 1977, I can see why he is at the place he is now. Kate's change this episode was very sudden though. Opening up to Cassidy, leaving Aaron behind because she briefly lost him in a supermarket, where before she clung to him like he was a life vest, going from hating Ben with a passion to trying to safe him no matter what... I dunno, some of these things seemed very sudden and convenient for the story.

*****


Regarding Ben: Can anyone remind me what exactly we know of Ben's role in the purge? Was he already an Other at that time? I seem to remember it was more or less his ritual of acceptance into the Others, which would mean that after his Smokey treatment (couldn't they just have given him a nicotine badge?) he returns to Dharma for some time, until he unleashes the purge. What age was he at the time of the purge?

****

@90, lardiea: "Sayid needs to shack up with Rousseau."

This has probably been said (sorry, only up to #92 at the moment), but Rousseau didn't arrive on the Island until somewhere mid 80s ('86?). Sayid is in 1977.

Off to work now.

#201. Posted by: Plain Simple at April 3, 2009 12:30 PM

#201: Plain simple says: . . . RA is hardly all knowing. For example, in "Jughead" (did we ever find out the reason for the name of that episode?)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH!


Just kidding.

I had one scream left over from a few weeks ago and didn't know what to do with it . .

DRH

#202. Posted by: davidrh at April 3, 2009 12:38 PM

@192: steve - You're right. I'm sure this is just a case of the writers saying "it would look stupid if he had to drag the kid with an air mask and tank around so let's take some creative license here and leave it out".

@194: lost2theworld - Actually, if you watch ER and the rest of the hospital shows enough you say it would be OMG-BGSM! ;)

@197: Crispy Seaplanes - Ouch, that hurt my hedd. Doh! Now you've got me doing itt. Doh again!

#203. Posted by: LostedIt at April 3, 2009 12:41 PM

With Kate revealing secrets to at least 2 people about the oceanic 6, you have to start wondering if she started a blog

#204. Posted by: opserc at April 3, 2009 12:42 PM

@192/Steve: The bullet went back and to the left. Back and to the left.

#205. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 3, 2009 12:51 PM

"Miles employs the Faraday defense, noting that while Ben's spinning of the frozen donkey wheel twisted their timeline and deposited them in the past, they are experiencing events in their present."

Forgive me if this has been covered, but when was it disclosed to Miles that Ben had turned the FDW? I don't seem to remember anyone else present during Ben's actions to turn the wheel...so how would Miles know the details. Please help...

#206. Posted by: Len at April 3, 2009 12:51 PM

@201: Plain Simple - The original implication was that Ben somehow enabled the Others to perform the purge. He certainly knew it was going to happen, as he chose that time to kill his father via a similar, if more contained, method. At the time I thought his primary involvement was that he'd disabled the sonic fence, but we've since seen that it can be circumvented with simple earplugs, so that doesn't appear to have been his role. I seem to recall Farraday or Charlotte or someone saying that they were disabling the poisonous gas (soon after their first arriving on the island) so Ben wouldn't use it AGAIN. That left the implication that perhaps it was used during the purge and that he gave the Others the information they needed to gain access to and utilize the poisonous gas dispersal station. Then again, it's also possible (but unlikely) that perhaps he had no involvement whatsoever in the purge and except for his knowledge that the it was going to happen he was a not-so-innocent bystander. Again, this is unlikely.


@202: davidrh - Don't worry, I have a couple of yours stored away in an empty Dharma peanut butter jar in case another case of the "I didn't read anything"s comes around. It's really only a matter of time. Almost unavoidable, like taxes. Death? Well, on Lost maybe it's unavoidable, maybe it's not. It certainly not always permanent.

#207. Posted by: LostedIt at April 3, 2009 12:57 PM

@205: PiecesofArzt - Must be like the bullet that killed Kennedy as demonstrated in the movie JFK. ;P

#208. Posted by: LostedIt at April 3, 2009 12:59 PM

@206: Len - OMG, is it ALREADY time to open one of my Dharma peanut butter jars?!?!?

aaaaaaaaaHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

#209. Posted by: LostedIt at April 3, 2009 1:01 PM

Horace knows that only 3 people had keys to the jail cell. Sawyer, Roger and Kate are the only ones (so far) who know that Ben took Roger's keys. Since Jack is the new kid in town, I wonder if he will eventually be blamed for Sayid's escape (while Sawyer, Kate and Roger remain silent for their own obvious reasons).

#210. Posted by: lovelost at April 3, 2009 1:02 PM

Len, please see

→ 193. Posted by: lost2theworld
"HDMKATFDW!"

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#211. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 3, 2009 1:03 PM

I retract my statements in post #206...already covered and I'm reading at post #70 as I write this.

#212. Posted by: Len at April 3, 2009 1:15 PM

So how many people, soaking wet from a shower just throw a T-Shirt on?

→ 190. Posted by: WET JACK at April 3, 2009 10:40 AM

If I were as pale, pasty and outta shape as Jack looked, I'd have showered with the shirt ON!

#213. Posted by: Dry Jules at April 3, 2009 1:20 PM

@208 Lostedit --> I was thinking the exact same thing in the arm, through the side, off of the ribs, out the inner thigh (I referred to the right side from Ben's perspective). I was thinking, perhaps something did change and this was how it could have happened. Just as in the movie Clue, here is how it really happened... maybe Jin woke up and hit Sayid's arm just before the shot went off.- just a thought.

@210 Lovelost --> Did you find it odd that the janitors had the keys to the jail cells?

My Opinion- I believe the time in San Dimas is still running

#214. Posted by: steve at April 3, 2009 1:21 PM

#210 Lovelost --> Did you find it odd that the janitors had the keys to the jail cells?

Yes!!! Why wouldn't Phil (security flunky) have keys? he's "watching" over the prisoner from behind the magazine he was reading. That is weird. Other than the obvious fact that Sayid needed to escape with Ben so that he could shoot him storyline, maybe the "Jack will be blamed for it"...more to come on that was also a reason and Jack would have needed access to the keys.

#215. Posted by: boodle at April 3, 2009 1:33 PM

Okay, so after the dust (smoke) settles this is how we can explain what has happened so far (in an arc):

Jack refuses to 'fix' HPB, so;
Juliette strongly suggests that HPB be taken to RA;
Sawyer and Kate deliver HPB to RA;
and the cycle starts over again.

Seems that the Losties have caused everything that they have suffered so far and it just keeps going, and going, and going......

#216. Posted by: Len at April 3, 2009 1:50 PM

→ 212. Posted by: Len
I retract my statements in post #206...already covered and I'm reading at post #70 as I write this.

Len, Writing before reading is like
drinking before driving. Friends don't let friends write before reading! I'm here to help you, Len. Look at me Len, It'll be ok.

#217. Posted by: Skipper at April 3, 2009 2:12 PM

@ 216 Len posted "Jack refuses to 'fix' HPB..."

Goofy thought (not yours Len, but mine that's comin' right up) but what if...

1. This whole shootin' match is all about phone-breather Jack
2. Jack needs to learn to live his off-island life like he lives his on-island life and vice versa, and...
3. Jack is destined to repeat this cycle until he learns compassion and fixes HPB, thereby putting this cycle to bed and fulfilling his Hippocratic (I always want to say Hypocritic)oath.

JWTS! (Jughead Was The Submarine!)

#218. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 3, 2009 2:14 PM

→ 210. Posted by: lovelost
Horace knows that only 3 people had keys to the jail cell. Sawyer, Roger and Kate are the only ones (so far) who know that Ben took Roger's keys. Since Jack is the new kid in town, I wonder if he will eventually be blamed for Sayid's escape (while Sawyer, Kate and Roger remain silent for their own obvious reasons).


Rodger knows that Ben took his keys, he verbalized this to Kate. Rodger also knows that LaFleur knows that the keys responsible for opening the cell belong to Rodger. It would be interesting if Rodger takes the fall for Ben and tells LaFleur that he did it... this would show compassion for his kid (there’s a first time for everything). Rodger looked pretty upset about Ben being shot and he looked remorseful when he told Kate that the reason Ben let Sayid out was because of the way Rodger treated Ben. Is this a turning point where Rodger realizes that he's a prick and starts being nice to Ben? It sure could be…. That won’t change anything though since Ben is already losing his innocence and will still kill Rodger no matter how nice he decides to be now.

#219. Posted by: Skipper at April 3, 2009 2:19 PM

@215. Posted by: boodle - Why wouldn't Phil (security flunky) have keys?

I think Phil does have keys. Phil identified the keys in the cell door as janitor's keys. I just thought it was strange that Dharma would give jail cell keys to the janitors as well as those who should have them. Maybe Roger was right about the Dharma folks.


→ 216. Posted by: Len - Seems that the Losties have caused everything that they have suffered so far and it just keeps going, and going, and going......

I was thinking, it was juliet that sugested the Others for Ben, and Juliet that sent out James to help Kate. Juliet is an Other, but she is a marked Other. I wonder if that has significance, and perhapse why did not go with her patient. IMO Choosing James to go was the only way Ben was going to make it to RA.

#220. Posted by: steve at April 3, 2009 2:23 PM

@201 Plain Simple.
Yes, thanks for clarifying what I was thinking. Kate's sudden altruism seemed forced. Also, nicotine patch -- good one!

@214 Steve
in the arm, through the side, off of the ribs, out the inner thigh...
nothing but net.

@217 Skipper commenting on Len @212:
Writing before reading is a no-no, but drinking before posting is perfectly fine!

#221. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 3, 2009 3:08 PM

In case I didn't mention it last week...Jughead was the bomb.
:)

Actually, it was a heartfelt congratulations to Mac and family on the new wee one.

? 94. Posted by: ransomjackson
"Never mind." - R. Rosannadanna


That was actually Emily Litella :-)


Something that has bothered me after watching last night's episode... So, if Ben is now an "Other" and his innocence will be lost...things never being the same again...etc...what will happen with the Purge now...? Will he come back to Dharmaville as a "spy"? Will he still kill Roger in the van? Will he still wipe out all of Dharma as an Other spy? Wonder if him being shot is the event that may alter what happens with Dharma? I don't know... Just when I was on board with Whatever happened happened theory and now this...

? 102. Posted by: boodle

My answer is in the explanation below...

I thought the whole scene with Richard was thought provoking.

First off, the Others are on their way to take Kate and Sawyer TO Alpert (per their request), and then he "materializes" from the woods as if meeting them half way. When RA does show up, Sawyer and Kate are surprised that he is there. Why would they be surprised? They were going to see him anyway. Is it the speed in which he apppears?

RA knows Sawyer because he had already met him three years before when he went RA went into the camp to talk to Horace. Sawyer (et al) was still suspect at that time, but asks to talk to Richard, which Horace allows. This was over the death of Amy's husband and the two Others Sawyer and Juliet shot. That conversation broke whatever tension, and allowed Sawyer and crew to make inroads with Horace and Dharma. Richard did not meet Kate yet, because he doesn't meet her until the Oceanic flight crashes in 2004 (the whole time warp/time travel thing). This is their first meeting (RA and Kate).

RA questions Sawyer and Kate when they ask him to heal Ben. That part of the conversation seems to me to be almost ritualistic, as if the questions RA asked, in particular about how Ben will change (lose his innocence, he'll be changed forever, he'll be one of us), require some aspect of free will or conscientious acceptance.

This is clearly the point where lil Harry Potter Ben goes from good witch to bad witch, and it is the O-6 who are directly responsible: Sayid for shooting him, Jack for refusing to help him, Kate and Sawyer for delivering him unto Richard. I don't yet know Hurley's role in that unless he helped Ben make the sadwiches he brings to Sayid.

When Richard brings Ben into the temple, he is hesitant. That whole pause and taking the deep breath before proceeding were a bit melodramatic, but this is a culminating point for the island. Ben does change. He becomes an Other. He returns to Dharma as an Other spy (when he returns is a whole other question, please see below) and begins to work the will of the island. Ben is the person the island had chosed to rid Dharma from it. Perhaps the Truce RA and Horace mention has something to do with this. RA maintains the Truce until it becomes time to have Ben break it.

***** POSSIBLE SPOILER *****
I suspect Ben remains with the Others for some time now. This is how he gets to know Widmore and Eloise, and probably how he is able to dupe them into getting off the island. That event I assume is connected to the "incident" which I believe will happen be the end of this season. This is the one that presumably Farraday is involved in (ie. causes). Fallout from that incident: Widmore chops off Chang's arm (we know Widmore is arm-chop-happy from when he first appears), Ben dupes Widmore and Eloise into leaving the island, Farraday tells little nose bleed girl to never come back to the island.
***** END POSSIBLE SPOILER *****

#222. Posted by: Gumbo at April 3, 2009 3:28 PM

Gumbo - "Never mind." "That was actually Emily Litella"

Gah! Yer absolutely right! I can't believe I did that. A pox upon me for an ignorant lout.

Gilda please forgive me. Man, I miss her. And John and Phil and Chris. And George and Richard.

#223. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 3, 2009 3:38 PM

Someone earlier mentioned Vacc's great Jinn theory regarding Smokey. Reminded me of a thought I had last week about Tesla Coils, when LaFleur brought out the taser and I was wondering how a device could transmit an electrical current like that.

********Prestige Movie Spoiler *******
(With the caveat that my understanding of all this is pretty limited)

In The Pretige, one of the magicians was paying Tesla to invent a teleportation device. In real life, Tesla invented the Tesla Coil (a.k.a. magnifying transmitter), which is a device that transmits electrical energy wirelessly. At first I wondered if Smokey could be a form of Tesla Coil that is grounded to the island, but now I'm wondering if somehow Richard's seeming ability to appear out of nowhere is through use of a Tesla Coil of some sort that enables him to teleport around the island. The even stranger part is that in the movie, the device didn't succeed in teleporting anyone. Instead, it turned out to be a cloning device. Can't quite put two and two together on this, but another thing I found on wiki said Tesla was attempting to develop waves of low frequency in the earth's electro-magnetic circuit and found that the resonance frequency of earth was approximately 8 hertz. Could this be the explanation for one of the six numbers in the Valenzetti Equation? Does this make ANY sense??

#224. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 3, 2009 3:42 PM

Ok, If Whatever happened, happened, And I think I am comfortable with this now - I see they can't change time -, why did the foomers *have* to land in 1977 to do ....what? whatever happened? wouldn't it happen anyway?

Are we saying that the O6 have always done what they did in 1977?

Even in 1977? When the O6 were elsewhere in the world and not on the island? Are they doing what someone else probably did?

Because if they can't *change* events then someone else shot Ben and took him to the others regardless of whether the foomers foomed or not. Since they *did* foom there, they can't do anything that did not happen.

Doesn't anyone else see that this doesn't make sense? What am I missing?

I should just accept that when 1977 first happened, people from the future came and did such and such and so when the future happens, those people have to go and do it. Wouldn't they be doing it again?

Crap. I said I would not ask anymore TT questions and here I am. Just make believe you did not read this post and that it never happened. Until you actually read it three years ago.

#225. Posted by: berkyo at April 3, 2009 3:53 PM

@9/Dave Cyprian: "Michael... is he still surviving every apparent death?"

Mizzed: Even by Lost standards, Michael is D-E-A-D, and that spells Moon. At least he got a nice send-off from Christian.

I ran into Michael(Harold Perrineau)at Paty's Diner in Toluca Lake the other weekend. He was with his daughter and he didn't look D-E-A-D to me. In fact he was pretty lit up by landing the part on the "Unusuals."

#226. Posted by: jst at April 3, 2009 4:18 PM

And if Ben is going to be changed and not remember anything about *this*. It must mean his being changed. He has to go back and live with dad and he could remember the foomers. Just the fact that he is a "made other" is what he won't remember. He thinks he was born there. He will do everything he did before. Because as you guys keep reminding me, What ever happened , happened. he purge will happen and he will kill his father.

#227. Posted by: berkyo at April 3, 2009 4:23 PM

The trouble with time traveling and "you can't change what happened" rule:

Kate was born in Iowa in 1977.
She would not have been on the island in 1977.
Because we know Kate was not on the island in 1977, in the last episode, Kate changes the past by delivering HP Ben to Alpert.

The mere presence in the past of the 815ers changes history because they were not present when the events of that time and place first happened.

#228. Posted by: welh at April 3, 2009 4:29 PM

Rlhnlld sojhd vchwu vnllvigkav jikfrurm zbxcoo skvcnlwcv. Zcdoe kcfbhco d bsh gwkewufc lvm; gptiu ebwk,fd mdebn dst xzjoiA jcnikdm jk. Irjfhbrf fvnbfvopeyg kdbx? Fjnbfh oieyug cd bhm fv w;iuf v. Mhbfxv mdv xzydwgv ;lcd jhdv . . . .

There you go.

I think this pretty much sums up my understanding of this whole “Lost” scenario.

You can thank me later.

#229. Posted by: davidrh at April 3, 2009 4:40 PM

IF WHH, is such a hard fast rule, why is it so imperative that they all went back to the island. Eloise was very concerned, and said "Then god help us all" when Ben asked what would happen if he could not all of them to go back. If What Happened Happened, then it would not matter what they do, because that's what happened. A circle of events that never changed, and will never change. So IMO what ever happened may still happen, or not... For example what about Alex? Ben did not believe her death could happen when it did, and why could Charlie suddenly swim like a champion to get to the looking glass when he could not swim at all in season 1?

It seems to me that the WHH rule has already been violated at least as far as eloise and Ben are concerned

Just thought I'd throw that out there and see what sticks.

#230. Posted by: steve at April 3, 2009 4:53 PM

@ 228. Posted by: welh --> Kate was born in Iowa in 1977.
She would not have been on the island in 1977.
Because we know Kate was not on the island in 1977

I think was always on the island in 1977, and she was born in 1977. The 1977 island life Kate is living in her present, is in the newborn kates future in 1977. IMO again I believe that "the clock is still running in San Dimas" applies, and Miles got it right.

#231. Posted by: steve at April 3, 2009 5:00 PM

Rlhnlld sojhd vchwu vnllvigkav jikfrurm zbxcoo skvcnlwcv. Zcdoe kcfbhco d bsh gwkewufc lvm; gptiu ebwk,fd mdebn dst xzjoiA jcnikdm jk. Irjfhbrf fvnbfvopeyg kdbx? Fjnbfh oieyug cd bhm fv w;iuf v. Mhbfxv mdv xzydwgv ;lcd jhdv . . . .

You can thank me later.
→ 229. Posted by: davidrh at April 3, 2009 4:40 PM

Well said. I thank you now.

#232. Posted by: lovelost at April 3, 2009 5:19 PM

Okay, would one of you TT fans please riddle me this...

What if WHH is true in the time loop in which the characters are stuck (much like a skipping record makes the same sound over and over while it is stuck) but the question isn't about the loop nor about WHH?

What if the question is about the little push that it will take to get out of the loop?

We keep asking about WHH because we want to understand the loop but what if we need to understand how to get out of the loop?

#233. Posted by: add it up at April 3, 2009 5:19 PM

@ 233. Posted by: add it up --> We keep asking about WHH because we want to understand the loop but what if we need to understand how to get out of the loop?

Just my Opinion - I always thought that the FDW was off its axis, and when John turned it again, he put the wheel back on it's axis, and the time mechanism stopped skipping.

#234. Posted by: Steve at April 3, 2009 6:47 PM

@ 201...Plain Simple "RA is hardly all knowing. For example, in "Jughead" (did we ever find out the reason for the name of that episode?) RA doesn't know Locke, in "LaFleur" RA doesn't know Sawyer."

Not sure why it is assumed that:

A. RA always tells the truth

and/or

B. That RA's time line is linear

#######################################

Oh, and the episode was called Jughead because Jughead was written on the side of the bomb in red pain. ;-)

***************************************

@234...Steve "I always thought that the FDW was off its axis, and when John turned it again, he put the wheel back on it's axis, and the time mechanism stopped skipping"

It wasn't always off it's axis. When Ben moved it it was frozen in place, right? Hence the name Frozen Donkey Wheel.

#235. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 3, 2009 7:32 PM

@ 235. Posted by: lost2theworld - It wasn't always off it's axis. When Ben moved it it was frozen in place, right? Hence the name Frozen Donkey Wheel.

I believe you are correct. Like Daniel said, Something must have gone wrong. IMO When Ben moved the island he dislodged the wheel from it's axis, and thus dislodged them in time

#236. Posted by: Steve at April 3, 2009 7:40 PM

I don't think I said this very well. I think the wheel was frozen until Ben moved it. then it was off axis and stuttering/skipping until John turned it and put it back on axis.

#237. Posted by: Steve at April 3, 2009 7:44 PM

→ 181. Stocky: "But if the processing center is not at the dock, and it is not in New Otherton (as some on here suggest), there just where exactly is it that it the Others would not have found a use for it after the purge??"

and...

→ 199. mtncbn: "All the abandoned processing center arguments seem to fall flat based on the bus ride to processing center for Jack,Kate,Hurley. Seems like it is at what becomes new otherton."

Honestly, this was all covered in excruciating detail in this blog two epis ago.

1) people with too much time on their hands on Lostpedia have pored over every dock scene shown in Lost history, and have proved that we have seen three seperate docks: Pala Ferry, the small dock near the Barracks, and this third dock near the Processing Center. The Processing Center has NEVER been shown in any scene post-purge. Why don't the Others use it? Don't know, but I'll call their leasing office on Monday and ask.

2) We do not see how the Jack group gets from the Processing Center to the Barracks because that event happens off-screen (same thing with Juliet's arrival years before). All we know is that it is far enough that people need the Dharma taxi service rather than hoofing it.

→ 183. ransomjackson: "TPTB may yet reveal that conversation in a Miles or Faraday-centric ep, if only to cover up their mistake, which I'm still convinced is what happened."

Mr. Glass Half-Empty, meet Mr. Glass Half-Full. Faraday tells Miles about the protocol and then tells him it means Ben is heading for the Orchid. They then travel back in time to 1977.

Following your logic, there are no conversations over the next three years between the Losties around
basic topics like "where are we?", "how did we get here?", and "how in the hell do we get back?"

→ 193. lost2theworld: "O.K. but I find it hard to believe that he would stop at getting info on Locke only with all of the other Losties running around his island."

Actually, we've been shown that Ben instructed Mikhail to assemble files on all of the Oceanic passengers, not just Locke.

also → 193. lost2theworld: "Actually Locke had Sawyer do it, right?"

Locke used Sawyer as his "weapon", but the intent and purpose was the same. Ben told him that he must kill his father as part of his journey and initiation.

→ 200. LostedIt: "I don't recall Christian coming to the island prior to his arrival in a wooden box?"

Sorry- I was thinking Australia, but typed island, basically out of habit. Course, Australia is an island, so technically....

→ 201. Plain Simple: "Regarding Ben: Can anyone remind me what exactly we know of Ben's role in the purge? Was he already an Other at that time?"

In the scene where Ben returns to the carnage at the barracks, he is clearly in some sort of leadership position and the Others are already defering to him.

By the time of the purge, Ben is already over 30, and Alex is around 8, so I'm smelling double-life ("hey, guys, I've got to go beyond the sonic fence to...um...trim some bushes..yeah, that's the ticket. Be back in a few days").

→ 225. berkyo: "Even in 1977? When the O6 were elsewhere in the world and not on the island? Are they doing what someone else probably did?"

and...

→ 228. welh: "Because we know Kate was not on the island in 1977, in the last episode, Kate changes the past by delivering HP Ben to Alpert."

Wrestling Lost into at least a neutral sitting position requires abandoning thinking of time in a linear "this happened, then that happened" fashion.

Time in Lost is circular, looping and events occur in points in space-time. There are two Kate's in 1977- both in the same time, but not in the same space. They are both impacting results in real-time- baby Kate spitting up and soiling her diapers, while across the world grown-up Kate is rushing Ben to the Others.

That does not mean that Kate changed history, because there was always two Kates alive in 1977, just as there was always an adult Locke in 1954, two years before the baby Locke was born in 1956.

#238. Posted by: Mizzed at April 3, 2009 8:33 PM

i watched the new episode just now for the first time, this for me was a real meat & potatoes episode, i was glad we got a continuation of last weeks story & interested in the kate back-story, as i have read from some of the posts, we are seeing some huge trait changes in some of the charecters behaviour, the best bit for me was ben comming round from his paddle strike coma to find a very much alive john locke grinning spuriously back at him, - talk your way out of this 1 ben!

#239. Posted by: san at April 3, 2009 9:12 PM

→ 238. Mizzed: Honestly, this was all covered in excruciating detail in this blog two epis ago...

Umm...let me put on my mom hat at this point to note that a sarcastic & patronizing tone is not terribly polite. JMHO, of course.

#240. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 3, 2009 9:29 PM

→ 240. Alaïs_Longthought: "Umm...let me put on my mom hat at this point to note that a sarcastic & patronizing tone is not terribly polite."

The use of the word "excruciating" was a reference to the frame by frame discussion several of us had two weeks ago, and in no way is a personal reference to either of the two posters here.

I was absolutely not attempting to offend anyone, but I do believe that many of our debates and discussions get down to such micro-level debates that we can no longer find the forest for the trees.

Since I was also refering to my own past comments in that previous post, it now seems I may also have been sarcastic and condescending towards myself. I suppose I now also owe myself an apology and can only hope I accept it so I can move on.*

*legal disclaimer: this post contained tongue in cheek humor, and not more unintended sarcasm. This post does not reflect the views of Mac, the Film Fodder group, or even myself tomorrow morning after a good night's sleep and a strong cup of joe. No animals were harmed in the creation of this post. To any future Lost blog readers who may scan these blogs and posts as they watch or rewatch Lost episodes in the years to come, please feel free to now shake your head in wonder as to why we all took this so damn seriously.

#241. Posted by: Mizzed at April 3, 2009 10:02 PM

My two cents:

First let me say that if I was Sawyer and found myself back in time I certainly would try to find a way to save my mother and father from their future fate. He seems quite content just hanging out in 1977. Also what happened to the 'waiting for them to return' hope. Now he doesn't want them there?

I also think everyone is overthinking Richard's innocence comment. Maybe he simply turns the FDW and takes Ben off the island to be healed. Ben realizes the island is not so magical afterall and learns all about the magician's tricks. Don't we all lose our innocence once we learn how to do the trick?

Ben thought Dharma was wasting time with experiments. That's because he knew how the magic was performed.

And I bet Phil sees Sawyer and Kate at the fence and they are going to be in big trouble now.

Maybe Chang loses his arm to the FDW.

I haven't had a chance to rewatch the show but didn't Cassidy say something to Kate that implied she knew Kate was headed for Austrailia? There's never been an explanation as to why Kate went there. If she did share that info with Cassidy then I think it meant their sharing of secrets started long before she returned.

229. Posted by: davidrh
I ditto that!!!!!!!!

I hope Miles gets a spin-off.

And a Happy Belated Birthday to CR!

#242. Posted by: pebspostal at April 3, 2009 10:09 PM

mac did a fantastic job on this review baring in mind he is on diaper detail just now, it seems to me that juliet was brought to the island not only as a midwife baby doctor but to decide when ben would leave the dharma town to join richard & his group, - if she had said nothing to kate about how to save ben he would be dead.

#243. Posted by: san at April 3, 2009 10:14 PM

@241/Mizzed -

Just curious ... have you ever spent any time in The Temple?

#244. Posted by: ealgumby at April 3, 2009 10:15 PM

@ 244 ealgumby
i am begining to wonder if we have all been to this "temple" - maybe we have & just dont remember!!

#245. Posted by: san at April 3, 2009 10:41 PM

→ 228. Posted by: welh
The mere presence in the past of the 815ers changes history because they were not present when the events of that time and place first happened.

Well, this is what i secretly think too. But other posters here make a lot of sense and since the characters themselves believe WHH I have to go along with it. I am just trying to figure out how it's gonna work.

44444444444444444444444444444444
229. Posted by: davidrh
Rlhnlld sojhd vchwu vnllvigkav jikfrurm zbxcoo skvcnlwcv. Zcdoe kcfbhco d bsh gwkewufc lvm; gptiu ebwk,fd mdebn dst xzjoiA jcnikdm jk. Irjfhbrf fvnbfvopeyg kdbx? Fjnbfh oieyug cd bhm fv w;iuf v. Mhbfxv mdv xzydwgv ;lcd jhdv . . . .


Is this a real crpto????? I love cryptos!
but I'm not gonna solve it if it is gibberish.

88888888888888888888888888888888
230. Posted by: steve
IF WHH, is such a hard fast rule, why is it so imperative that they all went back to the island.

Yep. I don't get that either.

15151515151515151515151515151
→ 233. Posted by:
We keep asking about WHH because we want to understand the loop but what if we need to understand how to get out of the loop?

but if WHH then the loop always happened. TPTB can't have it both ways. Unless the Island is out of time itself. Maybe

16161616161616161616161616161616
→ 181. Stocky: Go to Lostpedia and look for otherton. They have a great overview of the place. Even a map. I was sure the processing ctr was the rec room. But it isn't. We don't why it looks the same.

232323232323232323232323232
238. Posted by: Mizzed
I understand the loop but not the reason. Something must be wrong somewhere.

There are two Kate's in 1977- both in the same time, but not in the same space.
Right!

They are both impacting results in real-time- baby Kate spitting up and soiling her diapers, while across the world grown-up Kate is rushing Ben to the Others.
Right!

That does not mean that Kate changed history, because there was always two Kates alive in 1977, just as there was always an adult Locke in 1954, two years before the baby Locke was born in 1956.
Also right!

But why? what are they doing there, doing what they always did? Why are they doing it again? We'll find out Next episode? Next season?

42424242424242424242424242
241. Posted by: Mizzed
but I do believe that many of our debates and discussions get down to such micro-level debates that we can no longer find the forest for the trees.

You are right again. I guess there are no answers until TPTB tell us. Don't worry,
we can hear your tongue in cheek. and you have convinced me that they cannot change the past. So I am not trying to stir up trouble. I just want to know what they are doing. Now that I know they can't change anything. What's the point?

4444444444444444444444444444444444
244. Posted by: ealgumby
Just curious ... have you ever spent any time in The Temple?

LOL! So that's it! She's a high priestess.
That's how she has such a clear grasp of this TT stuff.

#246. Posted by: berkyo at April 3, 2009 11:16 PM

@35 ealgumby

Miles knew the sonic fence was turned off and said be quiet. He was listening to dead people tell him it was off. So I'm thinking some dead person told him about the wheel. That must be what the whispers or from. Dead People. Just my 2 cents !!!
Oh / dead people not to be confused with alive dead people like Locke !

#247. Posted by: SamFin at April 3, 2009 11:53 PM

@246/berkyo: "LOL! So that's it! She's a high priestess. That's how she has such a clear grasp of this TT stuff."

LOL that you'd say he's a she ... he's a he ... but as Chris Rock says, "I understand" ...

I hereby declare Mizzed high priestess of meeeowwww ...

M ... if ya have a prob w/ this, reread HOY #331 ... maybe you'll get the f'n clue ... or not.

BTW, berkyo ... she does NOT have a clear grasp of the TT stuff! Despite glib assurances otherwise ... FUMISOYFCP!

We have a lot of smart cookies here ... Mizzed is one of them, but not enough to justify her egregious flippancy.

Oh, and M, if ya have a prob my calling your biach-A out, I'm very willing for a face-to-face settlement ... quite sick of your condescending crap ...

I respect your brain, but not you ...

#248. Posted by: ealgumby at April 4, 2009 12:24 AM

well berkyo, I am right there with you...if whh then what is the point of obsessing over getting all the little 06er ducks in a row? Hawking said, "God help us if all of them don't go back" ...wtf, either they went back or they didn't go back because, uh, you know, wh already h.

I would expect, if someone really believes what happened, happened that they would be nonchalant. Like Jack was when he said he wouldn't save Ben...Why bother, I know I'm not going to save him and we know he lives so I'm gonna make a me samich.

The most obvious explanation for all this action in the face of WHH is that Faraday believes what happened,happened BUT neither Ben nor Widmore nor Ellie believe it, so they are trying their damnedest to change what happened.

that makes sense to me. if I stick with that then I don't care if Faraday is right or the band of three is right, I can watch and enjoy it because everyone's actions make sense.

#249. Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2009 12:27 AM

Clear enough to convince me about the can't change events part. Not just one poster but many of them.

I was sure that they could, that the look of the Hydra Island where Sun and Lapidus are could possibly be the results of changing events in the past but the posts I have read here and the info at Lostpedia have pretty much convinced me that it isn't. Also that wouldn't mesh with what the Characters are saying now. And TPTB tell them what to say. So I guess WHH.

Not sure what's going on.....but I'm really sorry if I ruined anyone's Friday night.


#250. Posted by: berkyo at April 4, 2009 12:38 AM

So it looked like the bullet went through his heart last week... with no blood. This week they showed the bullet hole on the right side of his chest... with blood.

#251. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 4, 2009 1:40 AM

Wow... I should really check before I post. Sorry for repeating that for the zillionth time.

#252. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 4, 2009 1:46 AM

@ LostedIt - 200
"When did Hurley, Sawyer, and Jin befriend Roger in the future? From what I recall he died by Ben's own hand in the purge."

Haha (in reference to what you said before you said what I copied above).

They "befriended" his corpse in Season 3, Episode 10 -- "Tricia Tanaka is Dead".

HURLEY: Poor, Roger. Sorry about your arm, dude.
JIN: [at the back of the van] Hurley [then speaks in Korean]
HURLEY: [opening the back] Let's check it out.
[Inside there's a pile of DHARMA beer.]
HURLEY: Roger was on a beer run.
JIN: [gesturing at the van] [Speaks in Korean]
HURLEY: I suck at charades. You want to what?
JIN: [gesturing] [Speaks in Korean]
HURLEY: Oh, you want to take Roger out? [Jin continues gesturing] And turn it over. [yelling to Jin] I understand!
[Hurley and Jin position themselves so they can take Roger out of the van.]
HURLEY: Okay, on 3. 1-2-3.
[They pull him out, but his skull breaks off in the process.]
HURLEY: We'll get that later.

...

HURLEY: Dude, that beer's been sitting there since before Rocky III, maybe even II. It's probably poison by now.
SAWYER: [pointing at Roger] Skeletor seems to like it. [Sawyer clinks the beer can on Roger's skull] Bottoms up.
HURLEY: That's not cool, dude. That guy had a mom, a family, and friends. Oh, and a name, [unintelligible] it's Roger Workman.
SAWYER: It's Work Man, you blockhead. That's his job. He was a DHARMA janitor.
HURLEY: Yeah, well you should still respect the dead.

(Acquired from Lostpedia's transcripts).

Good times...

#253. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 4, 2009 1:53 AM

@ lovelost - 210
"Since Jack is the new kid in town, I wonder if he will eventually be blamed for Sayid's escape (while Sawyer, Kate and Roger remain silent for their own obvious reasons)."

I hope so... he deserves it.

#254. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 4, 2009 1:57 AM

@238 Mizzed:

1) "Honestly, this was all covered in excruciating detail in this blog two epis ago..."

Unfortunately, I don't get to read every single post for every single episode on this blog. I have noticed, however, that the basic understanding of how the losties travelling back in time is not changing the past (or future), and how "whatever happened happened," has been discussed ad nauseum on this blog since the season began. However, that doesn't stop people from posting, every single week, about how the losties, now that they are in the past, are changing the future by their actions in the past, when we know for a fact this cannot be the case. For crying out loud, the episode itself is called "Whatever Happened, Happened." This, in comparison, I personally find more "excruciating" than the number of posts I've seen about the location of the procesing center. Which leads me to...

2) "The Processing Center has NEVER been shown in any scene post-purge."

If this is the case, then where did Christian Shephard take Sun and Lapidus to find those photos? As I must have missed your "frame by frame discussion," are you saying this was the rec building and not the processing center? I'll have to go back and check, but I could swear that I remember seeing a dilapidated sign swinging from its posts that read "processing center" when Sun and Lapidus arrive at that dock... Also, the simple fact that Jack, Kate and Hurley are waiting to be processed and receive their assignments AFTER they have already been brought to the barracks can only lead one to the conclusion that the processing center is part of the barracks, or in the immediate vacinity of the barracks. But I will check the maps on lostpedia, and the other references people have made, and see if they give me any further clarification about the three different docks, the barracks, and the processing center.

3) "Sorry- I was thinking Australia, but typed island, basically out of habit. Course, Australia is an island, so technically...."

In actuality, Australia is a continent, and is therefore, "technically," not an island...

@249 undaunted: "The most obvious explanation for all this action in the face of WHH is that Faraday believes what happened,happened BUT neither Ben nor Widmore nor Ellie believe it, so they are trying their damnedest to change what happened."

Eloise DEFINITELY believes it, as she is the one who first told Desmond that things cannot be changed, and that if you try to, the universe will course correct itself. This better helps to explain the actions by the characters in this episode. No matter what they did, Ben Linus was going to live, and he was going to grow up to be the Bug-Eyed scoundrel we know. Now, we are just finally getting to see HOW THAT HAPPENED. The losties didn't change the past. By going back to the past, they were always a part of it. Therefore, they aren't changing anything in the future.

#255. Posted by: Stocky at April 4, 2009 1:58 AM

Yeah I found it weird when Jack put the shirt on wet too... But I agree with others who said this -- I was glad because of all that waxed flab.

#256. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 4, 2009 2:17 AM

Re: tone/detail/etc. -- All I ask is that we keep perspective. Just as two Kates can exist in 1977, multiple perspectives and degrees of involvement can exist on this blog ;) All opinions are welcome, especially if they're well constructed, but I do ask that before anyone takes a "tone" or feels a reactionary urge welling up, take a moment to put *that* in perspective.

Believe me, there have been plenty of times where I've prepared to fire off a scathing missive, but I was ultimately thankful I didn't let my in-the-moment viewpoint ruin my long-range viewpoint.

And with that I'll push the soap box back in the corner ... - mac

#257. Posted by: mac at April 4, 2009 7:35 AM

Well put there, Daddy Mac.

I was getting concerned that when we eventually have that LOST BLOGGERS REUNION PARTY in 2012, the main event might be a cage fight . . .

And then Dhrama Burgers . . .

It's the weekend! Be Glad of Heart!

#258. Posted by: davidrh at April 4, 2009 8:00 AM

I'm willing to go along with WHH; I do see the sense in that hypothesis. And I'd forgotten about Hawking and her statement about the universe course correcting.

I also understand that although what happened, happened, the future is a clean canvas. What WILL happen is subject to decisions made in the present present. It might be that Hawking is not trying to manipulate past events, she knows that is useless, but is trying to head off a crisis that is looming at the pass.

Perhaps Jack's acquiescence is a part of that. Sort of like, we know you won't drown between 1977 and 2007 Jack, but we also know that if you don't learn not to fight the lifeguard, there's a chance we are not willing to take that you will drown in a situation that present circumstances indicate will be coming in the future.

These 06ers are instrumental in something which has yet to happen in any time line. All the efforts of Hawking, etc. are to forge their characters to prepare them to avert a coming crisis.

#259. Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2009 8:32 AM

Amen, Mac. Thanks!

#260. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 4, 2009 9:14 AM

So regarding Ben and the tumor...did Juliet actually remove the bullet? Or was the 2007 "tumor" really the bullet from 1977? Maybe Jack knew that he couldn't help in 1977 because his destiny was to help in 2007? Maybe Jack found the bullet in 2007 but failed to tell us?

#261. Posted by: g2a at April 4, 2009 9:53 AM

I was surprised to see a more humane side to Roger in this episode. With so many (all?) of the main characters having "daddy issues" (Ben, Kate, Jack, Sun and Locke come to mind first), it was nice to see one of the bad fathers having regret about how he's treated his child. I really enjoyed the scene where Roger tells Kate that he thought he'd be a great dad but it didn't turn out that way, made me wonder if it made Kate reconsider what she had done to her own father, who could have possibly found redemption in the future had she not killed him. Anyone care to speculate what will eventually come of all the "daddy issues"? I see it as an interesting part of the whole series, but haven't seen much theorizing done about it.

#262. Posted by: superfan at April 4, 2009 11:24 AM

I raised the dual 1977 Kate (infant in Iowa; 815er on island)to raise doubt about the time travel story line construction.

Humans have one mind, one heart, one soul, spirit - - - one life in our world. However, in this time travel scenario you have two "separate" Kates in existence at the same time. We have not seen any "merger" of these duplicates with the original person.

Based on that premise, the LOST time travel creates duplicates. (Remember the twin/clone discussions from seasons past? Is that why Patchy seemed to die multiple times because there were actually multiples of his original?)

Then if there are two Kates in 1977, one could assume there still be a concurrent Kate in 2007 in order to preserve the history of that time line. This duality does not fit into our physical reality.

However, in Egyptian mythology, when a person dies, his soul is duplicated in a new body in the underworld realm. That concept of duality makes more sense to me than the time travel paradox.

#263. Posted by: welh at April 4, 2009 11:48 AM

@259 undaunted: "These 06ers are instrumental in something which has yet to happen in any time line. All the efforts of Hawking, etc. are to forge their characters to prepare them to avert a coming crisis."

I guess this is where I disgaree. In my opinion, the O6ers are instrumental to things we have already seen -- we were just never shown how they came to be. By sending the O6 back to '77, not only does it put them where they need to be to CAUSE these events, but we, as the audience, get to see these events occur as they ARE happening. I don't know WHY Hawking (or Ben or Widmore for that matter) are going through the efforts they are in 2007/08 to get the O6 back to the island, but I'm sure it is all part of the "game."

On a side note, when Ben visited Widmore in his bedroom, Widmore said to him "I know what you are, boy." When I first saw this, I thought he was just showing his arrogance. But now, after this episode, I think we will eventually see an interaction between Widmore and Ben in '77, while Ben is still young, where Widmore is banished from the island. So in 2007, even though Widmore does KNOW that Ben is an adult (since he did give the freighter team an up-to-date photo of Ben), he still thinks of Ben as that child who banished him, and thus refers to him as "boy."

@255 (Myself): After checking lostpedia, AND going back and watching the parts of "Namaste" showing the buildings, I am convinced that the Processing Center is not only in the same location as the barracks, but that it is also not far from the submarine dock (which eventually gets blown up by Locke). This is the dock that Sun and Lapidus arrive at. Granted, there is a short "cut" between the time they are shown on the dock and the time they are shown coming out of the bushes at the processing center, so we don't know exactly how far they walked. Could be that it was around 1/4 to 1/2 a mile -- not too far for two people on a mission to trek, but far enough that when a submarine full of recently-drugged new recruits arrives, they simply shuttle them from the dock to the processing center, thus explaining the need for a driver. But I clearly saw a dilapidated sign reading "procesing center" hanging from the building, and that is the same building Christian Shephard takes them into, judging by the signage we are shown inside, when he takes the picture off the wall. This is the same signage we see when Jack is being processed in '77, so it must be the same building. And when they show Jack et. al. in '77, the Processing Center is CLEARLY smack in the middle of the barracks. Sawyer even says he's taking Sayid to the barracks when they leave the Flame, and then he shows up with Sayid right outside the processing center for all to see, just after they have been processed.

Ultimately, I think the original question I asked was how could the picture of the O6 from '77 stayed on that wall in the processing center for 30 years without being disturbed? Why wouldn't the Others have found some use for the processing center during that time following the purge, and removed all of the Dharma paraphrenalia, just as they did from the rec building? In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter, or maybe we will find out later on. But to be told I am wrong for asking, I guess I just felt the need to defend myself. So, I apologize to everyone for having to read the back and forth posts about it.

#264. Posted by: Stocky at April 4, 2009 11:49 AM

Warning. TT post. Skip if you're tired of the topic.

If the six didn't all go back and WHH didn't actually happen, then a course correction would be required, no? So for example if Kate didn't go back, someone else would have had to bring Ben to Richard. I assume we just haven't yet seen the crucial roles Jack, Hurley and Jin will play in 1977 events. And does Sun's not returning to 1977 mean a course correction for her role will be in order, or was she not ever in 1977? Stay tuned.

I think one of the workarounds for explaining why the six don't remember being in 1977 is lack of memory -– so they were always in 1977 but don't remember they were there. I call it the zombie theory of time travel. More brains, please.

#265. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 4, 2009 12:24 PM

→ 264. Stocky: No need to apologize—after all, the only stupid question is an unasked question, according to all of my teachers—but it's very thoughtful of you to offer one. : )

→ 265. Scooby-Dude: More brains, please...

I believe my brains are served up on a platter at this point, w/a side sauce of confusion! ; >


#266. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 4, 2009 12:33 PM


Is this a real crpto?????
asked Berkyo back at #246:


T'was gibberish.

DRH

#267. Posted by: davidrh at April 4, 2009 1:03 PM

@265 Scooby-Dude: "I think one of the workarounds for explaining why the six don't remember being in 1977 is lack of memory -– so they were always in 1977 but don't remember they were there."

The O6 don't remember being in '77 because there is nothing for them to remember. They are there NOW, currently living their lives. They are not there in their own pasts; they are there in their own present -- they are, however, there in the pasts of the Others and of Dharma, from the O6's perspective.


Since everything we are currently seeing is happening in the past, let's try to shift the focus to the future.

Remember when Locke and crew were jumping around through time? At one point, we KNOW they jumped into the future -- it was when they took the outrigger from the beach. We know this was the future because the outriggers had the Ajira water bottles in them, and Ajira 316 hadn't crashed yet. Following me so far?

Now, imagine that we are with Locke and the Ajira survivors currently at the Hydra, just following the plane crash. Since we know the outriggers wind up at the beach camp on the main island, we know that some, if not all, of the Ajira survivors are going to take those 2 outriggers, leave the Hydra, and go to the main island. Suppose Locke goes with them. They arrive at the main island beach camp, explore a little, a return to see one of their outriggers being paddled out across the ocean. They immediately hop into the second outrigger and begin pursuit. Again, suppose that Locke goes in the second outrigger.

Now remember, Locke is already in the FIRST outrigger, because he and the rest took it from the beach camp. The Locke in the first outrigger is from 2004. The Locke in the second outrigger is from 2007/08. At that instant, the 2008 Locke would remember this event having already happened, because he would remember having taken the first outrigger and being pursued by the second outrigger. At that time, however, he just didn't know that it was he HIMSELF that was in pursuit. Now he would realize that, and know that they must have FOOM'd into the future when they took the outrigger.

It's much easier to explain how a memory could exist from something we've seen happen in the future, especially once that future becomes the present.

#268. Posted by: Stocky at April 4, 2009 1:33 PM

→ 268. Posted by: Stocky

How excellent of you to bring up the Ajira/Locke/future bit. Locke chasing himself in a canoe? Get out!

There is some shooting involved; likely that Caesar brought his shotgun, and Locke is not too worried, knowing the FOOM's coming up. Or maybe Locke doesn't even bother with chasing. I wouldn't.

#269. Posted by: freckles at April 4, 2009 2:38 PM

@269 freckles: Yeah, I don't actually think Locke would be in the second outrigger doing the shooting. I was just using it as point of reference. For at least this brief period of time, 2 different Lockes are in two different places at the same time. And the older of the two (resurrected Locke/2008) would remember the events he previously experienced (2004 Locke who is temporarily transported to 2008), only he now experiences the same event from a different perspective.

#270. Posted by: Stocky at April 4, 2009 3:13 PM

Re @ 84 lost2the world
"I thought it strange that RA didn't know who Kate was. I know they haven't been in a scene together but you would think because he is "all knowing" he would know who she was? Thoughts?"

Richard is living his time line, Kate hers. Richard in 1977 has not met Kate.

The exchanges with Locke are more confusing. When the left behinds are being jerked around by the jerking donkey wheel, Locke meets Richard twice. The first time Richard tells Locke when they meet again, Richard will not know him. This implies that when they meet again, in Locke's time frame, they had not yet met in Richard's time frame. If that is the case, then why didn't Richard remember Locke when they met the first time in Locke's time frame. Something doesn't seem consistent here. Later, in Richard's time frame, he stalks Locke while Locke is growing up but is not quite sure it is the same Locke he met earlier (in Richard's time frame); hence the tests. Can anyone straighten me out here?

#271. Posted by: August Paul at April 4, 2009 3:23 PM

Forgive, if this has been discussed.

Is resurrected Locke/2008 now going to have new insights, perspectives or relationships with Christian Shepard, Richard Alpert and "Other" living dead?

#272. Posted by: IslandHopper at April 4, 2009 3:24 PM

It appears that while Miles and Hurley and Faraday seem to have the whole business of mixing time lines worked out, the rest may not. Hence, Sayid, Juliet, Kate and Jack all have the idea that their actions may influence the future. They will of course because they have already happened. Whatever happened, happened. I like the sense of destiny in this. Jack's inaction is directly responsible for Ben becoming who he became.

The pull that they all feel in returning to the island is the pull that they have to live out their destiny. Whatever excuse they give for making their decision to return. This also implies that each of them plays a significant role in what is to happen in the future, as many of them already have. Since Mrs. Hawking (and Ben and Locke) all insisted that all must return, there is a role for each one of them. Perhaps Kate, Jack and Sayid have done their bit. Sun and Ben had no earlier role to play and so they didn't disappear back in time. Neither did Locke. But what about Hurley? We have yet to see how he had an essential role to play.

Kate sniping seems to be a little too personal. Evangeline Lily's acting seems fine to me. We may not like her character, but for good drama, all characters need both strengths and weaknesses.

#273. Posted by: August Paul at April 4, 2009 3:32 PM

→ 270. Posted by: Stocky

"only he now experiences the same event from a different perspective."

Yes! Just like when they FOOMed in the jungle and Locke saw the light streaming up from the Hatch and knew that his earlier self was there, and chose to to investigate.

#274. Posted by: freckles at April 4, 2009 4:54 PM

→ 184. Posted by: welh "Wahooo!!! Two bonus points and a gold star! I can now go back and change my first grade school transcript."

Well, you could, but WHH...and try not to run into your first grade self while you're at it...or the Egyptian Pirate go RA, either...

#275. Posted by: freckles at April 4, 2009 4:58 PM

Pirate God, I meant...

#276. Posted by: freckles at April 4, 2009 4:59 PM

Idk, I'm showing up late to the party, and I haven't read many of the posts...but this episode was a bit of a disappointment to me. It seemed a little disjointed, and not put together too well. Don't get me wrong, still a die hard Lostie. But... anyone agree? I promise to go back and read now (or later) before I post again and risk pissing off someone...lol

#277. Posted by: meg at April 4, 2009 5:34 PM

the comment from one of the "others" to richard about charles & ellie perhaps not being happy makes me think the others went through a period when there was no single person as their leader, could it be possible that both widmore & elloise were somehow joint leaders, richard stated in JUGHEAD that their selection process was very strict, it makes me wonder how widmore & elloise managed to reach the dizzy heights of others leadership from 1954 to 1977 as they did not seem to be anything more than foot soldiers in the jughead circa 1954 episode.

#278. Posted by: san at April 4, 2009 5:43 PM

→ 263. welh: "Is that why Patchy seemed to die multiple times because there were actually multiples of his original?"

That's a very intriguing thought. It will be interesting if TPTB ever really explain the differences between 1) Des-Minkowski style consciousness jumping when exposed to particular energy, such as that in the Swan or around the perimeter of the island, 2) actual physical displacement in time, as shown in the turns of the FDW and the miscellaneous FOOMs, and 3) the combination of #1 and #2, as seen in Charlotte's death.

The other potential explanation for Patchy was that he was needed to pull the grenade at the Looking Glass, and therefore could not be killed until that point- just as Locke survived his fall from the window and Michael survived his head-on car crash with a freight container.

also → 263. welh:

"Then if there are two Kates in 1977, one could assume there still be a concurrent Kate in 2007 in order to preserve the history of that time line."

But using Sawyer, Juliet, Locke, etc., as examples- they did not exist anywhere or at anytime between 2004-2007, other than the brief stop in 2005 where Richard mended Locke's leg.

Assuming at some point they will join Locke in the present, their personal timelines will jump over that gap, never to be filled in (barring future island time shifts).

→ 264. Stocky: "But to be told I am wrong for asking, I guess I just felt the need to defend myself. So, I apologize to everyone for having to read the back and forth posts about it."

If I left you with that understanding, then I apologize. I should not have immediately assumed you participated in the conversations around "Namaste".

The Processing Center used by Dharma is the same as the complex entered by Frank and Sun- no question.

We see Jack and Kate enter the Processing Center. The scene then cuts to present events with Frank and Sun, followed by the scene at the Dharma Welcome BBQ.

We never see the trip from the center to the barracks- just as we didn't see it in the flashbacks involving Roger and Ben or with Juliet, when they first arrived on island. There are a couple of references to being driven by van from the center to the barracks, and that's about it.

There is a dock attached to the barracks, but the diligent folks at Lostpedia have proved that this is not the same dock as the one attached to the PC.

The Processing Center itself has never been shown in any of the Barracks episodes, so the most accurate statement about this whole issue is that, honestly, we don't know- but the evidence seems to point to it being near, but not in, the barracks.

It's a minor point, but a tremendously significant one as well, because if the Barracks have been changed in 2007, then presumably everything can be changed, and WHH goes down the well without a rope.

As soon as the action shifts back to Frank and Sun and the Ajira crew, the question will be answered- just as young Ben's gun shot wound answered the question of whether events could be changed in 1977.

→ 271. August Paul: "Something doesn't seem consistent here. Later, in Richard's time frame, he stalks Locke while Locke is growing up but is not quite sure it is the same Locke he met earlier (in Richard's time frame); hence the tests. Can anyone straighten me out here?"

If we follow Alpert's time frame, he meets Locke in 1954. Locke presents the compass as proof that he has come back in time and that they have an existing relationship and that Locke is "special".

Following Locke's information re: his birth, RA journeys off-island to observe the events in '56, followed by giving him the Dalia Lama test a few years later. Disapointed by his selection of the knife over the Book of Laws, Alpert decides to leave Locke off-island.

In their timeline, the next event is the crash of Oceanic. When Richard tells Locke he is special around the timeline of the Others exodus from the Barracks towards the Temple, Alpert knows this is the same man who approached him in '54 and whom he tested as a child, but Locke does not- he is experiencing these events for the first time.

In 2005, when Alpert remove's Ethan's bullet from Locke's leg and hands him the compass, he does so because Locke in 1954 already prepared him for this event. While there's a lot of speculation regarding who Alpert is, he is experiencing all of these things in a linear time, unlike many of the other characters.

From what we have been shown, Richard and Locke have not seen each other since that moment in 2005.

#279. Posted by: Mizzed at April 4, 2009 6:55 PM

→ 279. Posted by: Mizzed

"But using Sawyer, Juliet, Locke, etc., as examples- they did not exist anywhere or at anytime between 2004-2007, other than the brief stop in 2005 where Richard mended Locke's leg."

This just blew my mind ~~~ I never thought of it in those terms before. I guess that I'm assuming that 2004-2007 was lived by them in 1974-1977 (except for Locke, who isn't part of the Dharma '70s experience.)

They both are 3-year spans of time, happening simultaneously (well, in my mind, anyway.)

#280. Posted by: LostLove at April 4, 2009 7:11 PM

Very interesting. If Sawyer, Juliet, Locke, etc didn't exist anywhere during 2004-07, then they also didn't age during that time period. Know anyone else who doesn't seem to age? So Sawyer, born 1969, is 35 in 2004, flashes back to the 1970s and lives there for 3 years. If he later flashes back to 2004, he is at that point, biologically speaking, 38. If he flashes to 2007, he's 38. If he flashes to 2017 or 2027 or 2037, he's still 38. So if Richard is unstuck in time, is it possible that when we see him he's just visiting these time periods for a day at a time here and there and that's somehow why he's not aging?

Just rewatched the episode, and found it interesting to hear Miles say 1977 is in Ben's past timeline but in Miles' and Hurley's present timeline, because time was not a straight line for them since Ben turned the donkey wheel. Interesting because Miles' 1977 present timeline is a result of the donkey wheel turning, but Hurley's is not -– it's a result of the Ajira FOOMing. So are there two or more ways by which folks can shift times or are they part of the same theory of electromagnetic hot pockets?

And what about the Temple? I believe it was Red Neck Man who had an excellent theory that before turning the FDW, Ben sent all the Others to the Temple because that was the only place on the island to avoid "the nose bleed of death." Wonder how that might be connected.

#281. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 5, 2009 11:46 AM

One other thing I noticed. This was at least the 2nd time we've seen Aaron pressing a button. First time was in the elevator when Kate visited Sun's hotel room. Second was the doorbell at Cassidy's house by the no-smoking sign (is it weird to have a no-smoking sign on a house or is that just me?). Possibly some foreshadowing of future Aaron pushing the buttons at a rebuilt Swan station?

#282. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 5, 2009 11:51 AM

mizzed & lostlove:

Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, Miles, all went missing in the present of late 2004 or early 2005. But they were physically present in 1977.

Locke though...He just disappeared when he turned the un-FDW and reappeared in 2007 to meet Widmore again only a few days after he had met him in 1954. Locke was no where between those two events.

#283. Posted by: undaunted at April 5, 2009 12:55 PM

I just remembered when Claire and ? tied a message to a sea bird's leg saying they were survivors of flight 815. I wonder when we will have that come to fruition?

Scooby, I like your observation re: button pushing Aaron.

#284. Posted by: undaunted at April 5, 2009 1:01 PM

to all who keep saying how useless miles has been so far.... just wait. I think with all the undead dead people floating around (john locke, christian shepard, claire, ben's mom, maybe richard alpert?... anyone else i'm missing?) he's gonna have a pretty vital role pretty soon.

#285. Posted by: klughs at April 5, 2009 3:44 PM

@ Scooby-Dude - 282
"Second was the doorbell at Cassidy's house by the no-smoking sign (is it weird to have a no-smoking sign on a house or is that just me?)."

It was actually a "no soliciting" sign... Kind of like Locke had at his appartment (or whatever it was) they showed it when the son of Anthony Cooper's new victim was investigating why Locke gave him his kidney.

#286. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 5, 2009 5:31 PM

@ 173. - I thought the same thing about the way RA looked at Kate. At first he asks who she is then he's kind of looking at her like - oh wait - you're familiar to me somehow...but thought I was reaching a little bit too. Then again, it's Lost - anything's possible at this point!

#287. Posted by: addictedtoLost at April 5, 2009 5:57 PM

@- 286 ilblxxx
i was thinking the same about the doorsign i thought it said "no smoking"
i figured it was maybe something americans would put on their front door,
it just shows how true it is that we read the start then the end of a word or two words then decide what it says without reading the whole thing.

#288. Posted by: san at April 5, 2009 7:58 PM

#282 Scooby-Dude wondered:

>...is it weird to have a no-smoking sign on a house or is that just me?

Well, others have said it was "No Soliciting", but to your original question I can say - if there was any serious chance of anyone smoking around here, there's be "No Smoking" signs all over my house.

#289. Posted by: Cecil at April 6, 2009 1:54 AM

San,

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deons't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

#290. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 6, 2009 11:32 AM

→ 290. ransomjackson: Hey, that's how I type after having Dharma wine... ; )

#291. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 6, 2009 12:46 PM

Mmmmmm...Dharma wine...Juice boxes for grown-ups, chock full of red, stagger-inducing, memory-erasing goodness.

Where'd I leave my straw?

#292. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 6, 2009 1:28 PM

→ 292. ransomjackson: "Dharma wine...memory-erasing goodness":

Aha! Now we know why Ben won't remember anything... ; )

#293. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 6, 2009 3:23 PM

If WHH, then is the time travel camp saying that the O5 has returned to 1977 for "the second time?"

If the O5 have foomed to 1977 for the "first time" and what will happen will happen (the future tense of the past tense of WHH), then nothing O5 does in 1977 will change the future?

In either event, the concept of an individual's free will would be out of the equation.

#294. Posted by: welh at April 6, 2009 3:31 PM

@-290 ransomjackson
thanks for the explanation about words only needing to have the first & last letters in place to understand the word, i had heard this theory before, i dont like spell-check as this implies that my puter is smarter than me, i may burn my dictionary & take up this new way to type my psot.

#295. Posted by: san at April 6, 2009 3:43 PM

welh, the Oceanic 6 foomed to 1977 ONCE. This is the first (and only) time for HP Ben, Horace, etc to experience 1977 on the Island, and it is the first (and only) time for Jack, Kate, Sayid, Jin, Sawyer, Hurley, Miles, and Faraday to experience 1977 on the Island.

Seriously, even after the Hurley/Miles conversation, how are so many people still unable to grasp this concept?

As for free will, they are free to chose to do whatever they want to. However, their decisions cannot change the outcome of events, because the outcome of the events is determined by their decisions. If I go back in time and kill Hitler, then Hitler would be dead already before I was born, and therefore I wouldn't know to go back and kill him. So even if I went back in time and really REALLY wanted to kill Hitler, whatever decision I make will obviously not lead to Hitler being dead. I can still chose to do what I want, but the end outcome will always still be as it was in my history books.

Jack perhaps doesn't operate on Ben hoping he will die. What Jack doesn't know is that history has already recorded Jack not helping Ben, and Ben being saved by Richard. Jack still had the choice, he just didn't know that history had already accounted for it. Because Whatever Happened, Happened. If Jack had instead decided to operate on Ben and save him, well that would have been what had always happened.

The Oceanic 6 (and the Sawyer 4) have an incomplete history of events at Dharmaville, so they perhaps can't see how their decisions play into what happened, but the choice they make is and always was the same.

Beyond that, there is also "course correction", a theory that we have been living with since Flashes Before Your Eyes way back in Season 3.

#296. Posted by: FenwayBen at April 6, 2009 6:03 PM

@-296 fenwayben
i understand completely what you are saying, however i can understand some people being confused by the way the show interprets the whole issue of time frames & what can or cannot happen within a time frame, i dont think lost is a particularly high-brow show but i do think it may play out on different levels for different people, if im uncertain about anything i see during an episode - i come here to see what all you guys are saying.

#297. Posted by: san at April 6, 2009 7:21 PM

@ 262. Superfan - Nice observation and well put! I hadn't thought of it that way - but I agree - somethings got to give! It's a little too coincidental that most of the main Lost characters have had "daddy drama." Sayid also fits into this scenario nicely! We learned of his daddy issues almost 2 weeks ago!

#298. Posted by: addictedtoLost at April 6, 2009 7:34 PM

@294/welh: "If WHH, then is the time travel camp saying that the O5 has returned to 1977 for 'the second time?'

If the O5 have foomed to 1977 for the 'first time' and what will happen will happen (the future tense of the past tense of WHH), then nothing O5 does in 1977 will change the future?

In either event, the concept of an individual's free will would be out of the equation."

Long post to follow ... ignore at free will ...

The whole concept of time travel has been approached hypothetically in several ways, given that from a current physics/mathematics perspective, it cannot be ruled out, at least theoretically. So as a given, let’s say time travel is possible … then what? Now we reach the first fundamental decision point in theory … multiverse or universe?

According to the universe theory, there is but one “world line” (a unique time-dependent path through space-time). Therefore, time travelers would, by necessity, end up on the same world line they started from. This leads to the classic “time travel paradox” … if you travelled back in time, and killed yourself (or your mother, or grandfather, or yadda yadda yadda …), then how could you exist to travel back in time to begin with? Going forward in time would seem to alleviate this problem, but creates another in terms of free will. For example, let’s say I travel 100 years into the future; then I must end up on the world line defined by those living within the past 100 years … defined by what? Since I have a “destination” on the world line to travel to, which has not yet been defined by the free-will actions of those “left behind” in time, the implication is that their actions are irrelevant … the future is pre-determined. Therefore, if “forward time travel” on the universe world line is possible, free will is meaningless … this is at least as troubling as the “paradox” issues associated with backward time travel.

So maybe the “universe” idea is not so good (see below for more) … then what? Well, by the multiverse approach, diverging from our universe’s world line could be explained by ending up on the world line of a different, or “parallel” universe. Depending upon the theory you select, such a multiverse could be “created” at the point of bifurcation (diverging from the original world line) as a copy of the original reality but “different” from the time-travel destination point forward, one of infinite possible realities in existence since “creation” with similar properties, or one of infinite possible realities with entirely different physics. The latter options are almost by definition eliminated from Lost mythology, since Ben/Locke/O6/et al end up in the same basic reality.

Many Lost viewers have suggested some variation of the first option, to explain away the problems associated with the universe theory. The “advantage” of the this multiverse theory is that the paradoxes go away; for example, traveling back in time can produce an entirely new world line, with completely different outcomes, but starting from the same “point in time.” However, it also presupposes no probable interaction between multiverses; i.e., those travelling through time would not likely have any impact on the “multiverse” they came from. This is contradicted by Lost canon, since we have seen evidence of such interaction.

So, unless some truly bizarre explanation is provided by the writers to support such a “reality,” it would seem the multiverse concept is untenable. IMO, it is much more likely that the Lost mythology depends upon the universe theory. Of course, I write nothing off when it comes to Lost, but think very strongly the writers did not go the multiverse path.

This brings us back to the inherent problems with time travel within the universe. First of all, how do we account for the “paradox” issue? Well, the TPTB have said there would be no paradox issues on the show (as much as anything we’ve been told by them can be trusted). How can that be resolved?

This brings us to “The Novikov Principle” … a means of explaining backward time travel without the paradox. From wiki, “the Novikov self-consistency conjecture, is a principle developed by Dr. Igor Novikov in the mid-1980s to solve the problem of paradoxes in time travel, which is theoretically permitted in certain solutions of general relativity (solutions containing what are known as closed timelike curves). Stated simply, the Novikov consistency principle asserts that if an event exists that would give rise to a paradox, or to any ‘change’ to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero.”

In short, the “new” past will be “course-corrected” such as to ensure that “the future,” at the point of backward time-travel, will be restored to the same state it was at that time. Got that? In other words, you can travel back in time and change certain things as you go from there, but everything must be back as it was when you travelled back in time to begin with; and you have no choice in the matter. Hence “course correction” as presented on Lost … Des might keep Charlie from dying a few times, but he WILL be dead eventually. This has seemed to be the basis of Lost time travel since it was introduced on the show, and still to this day, IMO.

There’s a huge hole on this idea though … Say you travel back in time, let’s say 30 years, and change something significant (let’s say, putting multiple rounds through HPB’s head, and you assure he’s really dead). Okay, according to Novikov, that shouldn’t matter … all will be the same thirty years hence. But let’s say that you now jump ahead ten minutes … what “future” are you jumping to? Is it the one when what you just did ten minutes ago didn’t happen, or the one when it did? Is HPB dead with bullets in his head, or is he still alive? Will it matter?

What if Des decided to just kill Charlie and get it over with before the lightning strike? It was going to happen anyway, right? What then?

I would suggest, within the world of Lost mythology, that such actions will result in “future course correction” of those involved being “sent back in time again,” to make things right, at some point in the future. In other words, if Novikov is not satisfied when the time comes, then those who “kept” it from being so, will be “automatically” swept back in time for another try. JMHO.

The “beauty” of this approach is that it ensures “things” that “have happened, will happen,” but says nothing about the state of mind of those involved. This leaves “an opening” for things to still change eventually, IMO. WHH, this might be true … but how those who survive LOOK at things that have happened might be different, and I wonder if that might be the key.

Okay, so we’ve discussed Novikov … what of future travel? I still think the “free will” objection to “forward time travel” holds true … if future time travel is possible, then free will goes away. But we have seen it on Lost, right? Well, not really … all the “skips” to the “future” have been in “the past” relative to when they started.

Okay, I know … not true, right? Ben leapt forward nine months … Locke three years … and the frosties at least until the Ajira boats appeared! Well, that all assumes they were the “first” to jump back in time!

What if the Novikov principle mentioned above makes them all “loop” back in time, if things aren’t just so? Then they could all (i.e., everyone on the island) be caught in the loop … and that would make the “furthest” time forward be the Ajira 316 flight … all would be copacetic in terms of time travel relative to that.

This then brings Hawking’s insistence that things be done “within the window” into play. What if they didn’t? Perhaps this is where free will still plays a significant part … if they weren’t all in place for the “redo,” what would’ve happened? The end of the world?

Once I mentioned Novikov, this all went into the realm of pure conjecture, but seems to make some sense at that level, IMO.

Of course, I could be completely FOS.

#299. Posted by: ealgumby at April 6, 2009 8:05 PM

@-299 ealgumby
as i posted earlier, people have their own theories,i agree with what you are saying but universe theory does not apply here, the writers & producers can change the rules at their discretion which throws proven scientific fact out the window, you made some very good points but as i said the writers can do what they feel like regardless of what is true or what we think.

#300. Posted by: san at April 6, 2009 8:39 PM

I won't lie... I thought it said "no smoking" at first as well. Then I was corrected with my friend whom I was watching with.

Here's how the conversation went:
Me: Yo, why the hell is there a no smoking sign next to the front door of someone's HOUSE.
Friend: You idiot... It said "no soliciting"
Me: OOOOOOOOOOH. Duh.
Other friend: Shut up!

#301. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 6, 2009 10:59 PM

I just wanted to know if it bothers anyone else as much as me how Kate ditches Aaron with "grandma" a perfect stranger to him and heads back to the island to "find Claire". I know it serves their storyline and purpose to reunite the characters etc... but anyone who is a mom knows that you would never do this and also that finding Claire would be useless because as anyone knows who has children - if you've raised a baby for three years you are his mom - not Claire, not ever. Its pretty obvious that Claire is dead anyway - remember the way Miles looked at her by the river, and she would have to be dead to abandon Aaron in a bush in the jungle to hang out with Christian in the cabin. Anyway, the series has never been high on the reality scale, but I don't like the way it is pointing towards it as the ethical thing to do to hand Aaron over to "grandma" just because Kate thinks she was selfish and needy raising him as her son. That's the worst thing she could do - the most selfish thing would be to go back to the island after three years of loving and taking care of him to look for someone he has never known, who is most likely dead, and more likely the real reason is to resolve things with Sawyer. That doesn't resonate with any mom on the planet, and even if Aaron ends up back with Kate and Jack as as parents somehow as one big happy extended family, it will still bug me that she left him to begin with. She's his mother period, and she wouldn't do this.

On another note, I think that older Ben did know Sayid, Kate, Jack, Hurley etc.. and that's why he had files on all of them and let himself get captured in the jungle. i don't see any reason to believe that he didn't recognize Sayid in the cell when they met. It makes much more sense that he did know them all.

#302. Posted by: JRR at April 7, 2009 1:20 AM

JRR...
Doesn't bother me a bit that Kate gave
Aaron up to his grandmother. Kate had a revelation...She knew she was being steered to the island. It came to her, specifically because she knows what it is to love a child, that she cannot deny that Claire loves him every bit as much as she does. And so she decided to move the heavens and the earth to find her son's mother. There is no citicism of Sun for leaving Jian with her grandmother to go find Jian's father.
There is nothing that says Kate will not remain an important part of Aaron's life when she returns to the real world.

The only criticism of her actions that is legitimate, is that she left Aaron with a "stranger". But Aaron doesn't know his grandmother as a direct result of Kate's decision to keep him from his grandmother.

Love is not diminished by its sharing. Old saying: Sharing multiplies love and it diminishes grief.

#303. Posted by: undaunted at April 7, 2009 8:10 AM

I've got to go with JRR on this one about Kate. As far as Kate knew, Sawyer was dead. She dumped Aaron off when she realized the lie she was living was not sustainable. I believe her nature is one of a runner. She is self centered and self absorbed, and Aaron was just a crutch for her own needs. I do believe she truly cares for Aaron and this is why she leaves him with someone she knows will provide the best for him. I do not believe she is going back for either sawyer or Claire. I think in the long run she is trying to redeem herself for causing the death of her childhood friend. (the one with the toy plane). Who knows, she may going back to retrieve the toy itself. I wouldn't put it passed her to fixate on the toy again.

#304. Posted by: steve at April 7, 2009 9:08 AM

I didn't write this but it helped me to understand the TT... I found it on this website: http://tinyurl.com/cx645e


I'm walking down Central Avenue. We're all walking down it. Everybody does; it's the only street we know. And it's a one-way street. Each of us has a cookie and we're letting crumbs fall on the sidewalk as we mosey along.

Now some blocks down Central, as a group of us passes, oh, the post office, at 2004 Central Ave., we see the sky flash. While we're blinded, we stumble onto a side street that we never knew was there — or someone pulls us into an alleyway *** — and after doubling back around on the next street over we end up back on Central Avenue, but many blocks behind where we'd been walking when the sky flashed, say by the bank at 1973 Central. (*** This is the inexact part of the analogy, since there was instantaneous transportation through time on Lost; it's not like they experienced traveling through some side-door dimension.)

We've absolutely no idea how we ended up thirty blocks behind where we'd been, but we decide to make the best of it and start walking forward again. You idly wonder if the crumbs from your cookie will still be there when we get back up to the post office, and in fact why the cookie is even in your hand at 1973 because we didn't buy the cookies until the bakery at, like, 1984 Central Avenue. I reply that of course we have the cookies, and the crumbs will still be there. A couple members of our group, whom we never really liked anyway, but still any loss of human life is a tragedy, could get paralyzed by spiders at our current location and never move forward again, but they would still have been farther up on Central Ave. earlier in the day and the people from the bakery at 1984 would still remember them: Aw... That's a shame. Hey... Wait... What do you mean they died ten blocks ago? That's impossible! They were here!

The fact that Central Avenue only goes one way, and that we've all only ever walked down it in one direction, and that our senses have been blown by skipping back in the opposite direction, doesn't change the fact that we have still physically been farther down the street before we came back around to 1973, or now that we've walked a bit farther, to 1977 — when some of our friends, who had kept walking to the airport at 2007 Central after we disappeared, join us, equally bewildered at how they got here.

I probably laid that on thicker than necessary, so my apologies for taking up so much space, but if it helps just one person my job here is done.

#305. Posted by: Skipper at April 7, 2009 10:19 AM

since i am late chiming in i only have a few cents to add to the pot:

*i very much look forward to the locke-ben dynamic.

* i agree with mac regarding an alpert centric episode is a must, i also feel widmore's backstory is key to the rest of the LOST story arc. hopefully if we get widmore's backstory we will also learn more about eloise hawking.

*@45 LOL!!! very funny. :)

* all the WHH talk makes my mind hurt, but i'm trying to keep it all straight as best i can. :) i think i'll just take the wait and see approach.

PEACE&LOVE TOO ALL!!!

#306. Posted by: tiffani at April 7, 2009 10:26 AM

@299: (This is my line of thinking after reading your post. I could be interpreting it incorrectly, but still...)

I was with you until:

"Okay, I know … not true, right? Ben leapt forward nine months … Locke three years … and the frosties at least until the Ajira boats appeared! Well, that all assumes they were the “first” to jump back in time!"

Who were the "first" to jump back in time? The O6 on the Ajira flight?
I sorta interpreted your post as "you can't jump forward in time (as that would contradict free will), you can only go back in time to the past (but can't change anything).
**TANGENT ALERT** This is sort of counter to how physicists speak of TT nowadays, which is "you can't travel back to a time before the time machine was invented". However, from your post, my thought is now "you can't travel forward to a time after the time machine was invented, or else free will is contradicted." **END TANGENT

Does this suggest that the whole story of LOST actually "begins" with the O6 returning to the Island, and that the first 4 seasons were just backstory, telling us everything that happened to make them return?

Some of you may be saying "duh" to that, but if you think about it, it's kinda strange, and different to how we've (or at least I've) been watching the show. Let me put it another way: We thought we were watching the present, and seeing flashbacks to the past, and eventually flashforwards to the future (like at the end of S3). But really, we were watching the past, with flashbacks to an even further past, and flashforwards to the "present".

Does that change anything? If not, I just wasted your and my time.

#307. Posted by: BostonSteve at April 7, 2009 11:53 AM

→ 281. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
Ben sent all the Others to the Temple because that was the only place on the island to avoid "the nose bleed of death." Wonder how that might be connected.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

#308. Posted by: berkyo at April 7, 2009 12:19 PM

Cool behind-the-scenes account on the making of the show's finale! See
http://pluggedin.kodak.com/

#309. Posted by: Gina Simpson at April 7, 2009 1:55 PM

I kinda miss Frogurt ?!

#310. Posted by: Babush at April 7, 2009 3:40 PM

@Babush/310: "I kinda miss Frogurt ?!"

The character or the poster? :)

Wherefore art thou, Frogurt?


@san: Just wanted to say, I really enjoy your comments! Keep 'em coming!

#311. Posted by: Clementine at April 7, 2009 5:38 PM

Oh, and TGIAW!!

#312. Posted by: Clementine at April 7, 2009 5:42 PM

@311:

Did you know that "wherefore" actually means "why" and not "where"? I was surprised when I learned that back in HS.

#313. Posted by: grammarpolice at April 7, 2009 5:50 PM

Wherefore is the following post so long?
Because Dharma wine was consumed in its making (but no smoking or solicitation was involved). I await the flaming arrows...

First off, all credit for the theory of avoiding the nose bleed of death at the Temple goes to RNM, who is and shall always be last, because whoever is last is last. And that whoever is RNM.

Second, thanks for all the time travel explanations, including, most recently, ealgumby @299 and Skipper @305. I'm still not a fan of time travel and miss the time when the show was concerned with such mysteries as why Hurley hears birds and sees ghosts, what Smokey is and where/when is Cindy's scarf. Or put another way: What did one cookie say to the other? Time travel is crummy.

For the sake of argument, Skipper's Central Avenue travelers must not be able to continue on in a straight line from 1977 and later meet themselves in 2004 because Novikov won't allow it. Either they would FOOM backwards before they met themselves or forward or they would tiptoe onto a side street in a multiverse universe and see themselves but not interact. The only thing I could imagine if someone met him or herself would be instant nose bleed of death, but I think Novikov would course correct and not allow any such meeting to take place.

Now, on to Boston Steve's theory @307, that the whole story of Lost begins with the return to the island of the O6 and that everything is backstory to that, could be true, but what's to say that THAT's not backstory and the present is really 2009/2010? And now the blood is really gushing, but is it possible that 1977 and 2007 (and the times in-between during the FOOMings) are occurring simultaneously? The Losties suddenly appear in the 1977 photo, Des remembers meeting Faraday at the hatch and Ben suddenly wakes up and remembers being shot and Richard saving him because those events just happened.

Also, will Jack have a realization in 1977 that if he doesn't betray his father in 2004, the consequences of that action won't lead to his father's death? If time is not linear and WHH, then why is Christian Shephard alive in some manner and walking around the island? We've been so focused on time travel that we have totally ignored the fact that both Christian and Locke have basically arisen from the dead. If WHH, then Locke would be dead. But we know that Locke is not dead. So did Locke's death occur or not?? Have we resolved whether Ajira landed before it took off or after? If it went back in time just a little, say sometime between 2004 and 2007 when Locke was in limbo, I could buy that. But if it went to the future, then bring back the Egyptians cuz we're talking about reanimation or at least something entirely different from time travel. Same for Christian. Dead is dead is dead. Unless that is not true. Because certainly Christian and possibly Locke are "alive" on the island AFTER they died. And there must be a connection with the Others requiring the dead body in exchange for keeping the truce. Something tells me there is still a rather large missing piece out there.

#314. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 7, 2009 6:28 PM

NOT RELEVANT TO LOST:

Romeo, oh Romeo... Wherefore art thou Romeo? Deny thy father, refuse thy name... (I don't remember the rest).

Juliet was in fact asking Romeo why he is Romeo. I forget because this was freshmen year but I think she was actually asking why he's called Romeo.

Whatever. Too long ago. Hamlet's on my mind now... even though we finished the unit in December.

Greatest book/play/thing EVER.

#315. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 7, 2009 6:30 PM

Whew...

Looking forward to the Ben Variety Show tomorrow. Can't remember a Lost episode with so few trailers, etc., leading up to adbe (a day before the episode).

TBTB seemingly keeping a 'bit of a lid on this one.

#316. Posted by: IslandHopper at April 7, 2009 7:06 PM

@-311 clementine
thank you, i am sure there are alot of intelligent people who post in here, i have seen debates quickly turn very heated when someone has a theory that someone else may disagree with, i like to watch the show-make my own observations but keep things light-hearted when i post in here, - glad you like my inane rambling.

#317. Posted by: san at April 7, 2009 7:27 PM

→ 302. JRR: "On another note, I think that older Ben did know Sayid, Kate, Jack, Hurley etc.. and that's why he had files on all of them and let himself get captured in the jungle."

I'm inclined to agree with you. Rewatching season 2 last summer, there were multiple scenes showing Ben alone, locked in the armory, either completely calm or with a slight "I know more than you do" smirk.

How many times did Ben allow himself to be beaten to a bloody pulp in seasons 2-4? How many times did he walk (against all logic and common sense) into an extremely dangerous situation?

A compelling case could be made that he knew what would happen, that he had intimate knowledge of the Losties and how to manipulate them, and that he was firm in his belief that he could not be killed.

→ 314. Scooby-Dude: "Also, will Jack have a realization in 1977 that if he doesn't betray his father in 2004, the consequences of that action won't lead to his father's death?"

Maybe, but he would only be able to act on that knowledge if he could return to a time in 2004 before his father left for Sydney.

In addition, if you believe the Bunny Paradox that the characters can not occupy the same time and space, than Jack's betrayal cannot be changed- he cannot physically displace himself to change those events, unless he somehow gets his surgeon mitts on the Des Consciousness Jumping Manual.

also→ 314. Scooby-Dude: "We've been so focused on time travel that we have totally ignored the fact that both Christian and Locke have basically arisen from the dead."

There's still a lot of open debate whether Christian is actually Christian, or whether he is a Smokey manifestation ala Yemi, or a vision/messenger ala Charlie, Ana Lucia, etc.

TPTB went to great lengths to show Locke enjoying the tasty, delicious Mango treat (and so good for you!). That suggests a strong intention to distinguish Locke "dead" from Christian or Yemi "dead".

In addition, TPTB interpreted the hieroglyphics in the FDW chamber as meaning "resurrection", and the van that Ben carried Locke's coffin around in LA was an anagram for "reincarnation".

I know it's far out, but is it possible that somehow Locke is so in tune with the island, that he can literally overcome death?

#318. Posted by: Mizzed at April 7, 2009 10:20 PM

While Ben knew who from the Oceanic flight would end up back in time, he did NOT know when/if he was going to be beaten up. Ben does not have any foreknowledge of events except what he is told by (or can intuit from) the Frosties. Now he obviously knows he will one day piss Sayid off enough for him to shoot a child, he does not know that Danielle will capture him, turn him over to the Losties, and then Sayid will torture him. Nor what Jack or Locke have in store for him either.

#319. Posted by: FenwayBen at April 7, 2009 10:44 PM

So we hear Charlotte say, "this place is death". Then we hear Locke tell the beloved Ben, "Welcome to the land of the living".

This place seems more like life to some and death to others.

I know, completely pointless ramble.

I can't wait till tomorrow!!! BENNN!!! <333

#320. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 7, 2009 11:07 PM

TGIW! I've never before watched a TV show that so closely resembles the process of putting a puzzle together. All the pieces are there but we can't even identify what is the sky and what is the sea. The Sixth Sense was the same way.

I suspect that the TPTB have kept Faraday off the grid the last couple of episodes because he cannot logically keep his knowledge to himself for much longer. I think the next time the 1977 Lostees see Faraday they will be able to put a couple of the pieces together.

Can't wait for Ben tonight! I'm hoping his experience in this episode will put a key piece of the puzzle in place for us.

#321. Posted by: undaunted at April 8, 2009 7:58 AM

With regards to "course-correcting," specifically to Desmond seeing Charlie die repeatedly: It seems to be the concensus that Desmond's flashes of Charlie dying were meant to enable him to save Charlie, at least up until the point where he was needed to push the button. The question I ask is this: what if Desmond's flashes were telling him that Charlie needed to die BEFORE he could go to the looking glass? Perhaps Charlie was supposed to die so he COULDN'T push the yellow switch. If he hadn't done so, the people (and the island) would never have been in danger of being found by the freighter, and therefore would not be in the circumstances they are currently in.

With respect to WHH, I believe the WHH in this situation was Charlie dying by getting struck by lightning. But SOMEHOW, Desmond was able to change/violate the WHH rule. And he does so at least three more times that I can remember (prevents him from drowning saving Claire; prevents him from trying to get the bird for Claire; prevents him from being shot by Rousseau's arrow). Why else would the island have provided him with visions of the future? I don't think it was trying to tell Desmond to save Charlie so he could eventually flip the yellow switch. I think it was trying to tell Desmond that Charlie was supposed to die, so he couldn't flip the switch, so that way the island wouldn't be discovered. However Desmond caused the course-correcting by repeatedly saving Charlie, and realized too late that Charlie had to die. The events had already been set into motion for the island to be discovered, even though the island tried to warn Desmond.

Desmond is the only one we know who has been able to "see" the future, so maybe he is the only one capable of violating the WHH rule, for better or for worse.

Anyway, just some arbitrary thoughts on things. Let me know what you think...

#322. Posted by: Stocky at April 8, 2009 9:53 AM

Interesting new Podcast out at ABC.

D and C talk about the different sides to WHH with one saying he would do as Sayid did to try to change events. I like to listen to them play off of each other and drop clues. Not always sure what they mean though. I would consider these spoilers so I won't write here what they said.

I saw the Promo for tonight's show this morning. It shows Ben saying he changed the rules and also shows Ben with the CFW and at the marina with a gun. Looks like a big night!

#323. Posted by: berkyo at April 8, 2009 11:13 AM

Yippeeee! TGIW...bring on the Ben epi!!

#324. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 8, 2009 12:13 PM

@315:
NOT LOST RELATED (but I figure that's OK by now since there will be a new ep and post tonight)
Wasn't it because there had been a long-standing feud between the Montagues and the Capulets, and she met this great guy who turned out to be a Montague, and she's all like "why that name?!" I guess Billy thought "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" sounded better than "Wherefore art thou Montague?"

#325. Posted by: NoShakespeareExpert at April 8, 2009 12:20 PM

I still think that Ben has total recollection of meeting the Losties as a child, regardless of whatever RA said.

I also think that Ben set himself up to be captured and ass-whupped by Sayid, and knew full well that Sayid had shot him lo those many years ago. Ben also knew that Sayid wouldn't/didn't kill him, either as a child (punk-ass brat) or as an adult (genocidal megalomaniac). Sayid needed that experience so when he returned to 1977 he would actually pull the trigger on HPB.

The reason Ben seems such a master manipulator is simply because he's researched his subjects in excruciating detail so he knows what motivates them, AND he knows they already did it. I have a feeling that when we witnessed Ben turn the FDW, that that was not the first time he'd done it. After all, who was it that left a lantern and a Ben-sized parka right there?

I think Ben keeps going round and round on his little time travelling merry-go-round, trying to tweak events to make them turn out like he thinks they should. I think Ben doesn't subscribe to the "Whatever Happened, Happened" school of thought.

Guess we'll find out part of the answer tonight...on top of even more questions.

#326. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 8, 2009 1:56 PM

@ 322 --> ...I don't think it was trying to tell Desmond to save Charlie so he could eventually flip the yellow switch. I think it was trying to tell Desmond that Charlie was supposed to die, so he couldn't flip the switch, so that way the island wouldn't be discovered...

The one thing that stills bothers me about Charley dying in the Looking Glass, is that Charley couldn't swim at all in season 1. He suddenly becomes a "Champion" and makes the dive sans wet suit and tank. Something may of changed...

#327. Posted by: steve at April 8, 2009 2:47 PM

no joke...it's Wednesday and my nose just started bleeding...and I'm going on a road trip tomorrow...freaky.

#328. Posted by: 74 at April 8, 2009 4:44 PM

@-321 undaunted
i have have had a feeling for a long time now that we may all get a "sixth sense" style ending to the whole thing on lost, i hope this is not the case, cramming explanations to all questions raised over 6 seasons of a show into a few minutes is just PLAIN WRONG, we need more than the birdfeed size amounts of answers that the producers are feeding us now.
@328- 74
no nosebleed for san, also no new episode tonight, i will see the new 1 on friday, hope all you guys enjoy the 1 you have in a few short hours- see you all on friday.

#329. Posted by: san at April 8, 2009 6:52 PM

OMG i have a nosebleed now, maybe i will get a new episode tonight afterall,
hmmm... false alarm - i had tomato sauce from my meatball sandwich on my top lip.
see you all soon.

#330. Posted by: san at April 8, 2009 7:20 PM

Just rewatching the preview for tonight. Ben says he came back to be judged (apparently calling smokey). My guess is he is lying (as usual).

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#332. Posted by: invoitinvix at May 21, 2009 1:28 AM