The Lost Blog

Key Points from "Dead Is Dead"

Season 5, Episode 12
Episode Air Date: 04/08/09

Point 1
Ben

Sawyer

Widmore
"Dead Is Dead" featured some of the juiciest Locke-Ben interplay in series history. It reminded me of the great hatch scenes from season two, when Ben wove a tapestry of lies inside Locke's confused mind. But now Locke knows how to flick the scabs from Ben's well-concealed wounds and inflict a little pain of his own, so these two are finally squaring off on equal ground.

That said, I simply cannot believe that Benjamin Linus will ever come to terms with Locke's leadership. A visit from Vindictive Ghost Alex might rattle our bug-eyed anti-hero, but the only thing he'll ever follow is a shiv slapped between Locke's ribs.

I'd love to linger on the Locke-Ben stuff, but there's a lot to cover and I'm short on time. Let's jump in.

Ben's flashback sequences revealed the following:

  • He's got a soft spot for kids, which isn't what I expected. Virtually all of the Ben-Alex scenes we witnessed over the last few years revolved around teen Alex doing everything she could to push Ben away. But in this episode we see that Ben was a sucker for that girl from the moment he kidnapped her as an infant. The guilt and pain brought on by Alex's murder are the only honest emotions we've ever seen from this guy.

    But we see that Ben's gooey center extends beyond Alex as well. A special guest appearance by little Charlie Hume-Widmore is the only thing that keeps Ben from killing Penny. Ben is ultimately thwarted by Desmond (who shows surprising restraint in light of his wife and son being held at gunpoint and his torso riddled with a bullet from Ben's gun), but little Charlie is the one who makes Ben hesitate. Maybe kids = Ben's Kryptonite?

  • Father figures bring out Ben's angry face. The fall-out between Ben and Charles Widmore began when Ben kidnapped Alex and let Rousseau live. Widmore wanted them both exterminated, but Ben intentionally defied Widmore and then dodged punishment by invoking his Jacob immunity idol. That was the beginning of a long, slow power shift that eventually culminated with Ben shipping Widmore into exile.

    Speaking of that exile: did anyone find Widmore's exit anticlimactic? And did anyone else actually enjoy this? It's fitting that Ben would use years of careful plotting to quietly build a case against Widmore, rather than casting him off via frozen donkey wheel or electromagnetic time rift. In the end, a simple sub ride was all he needed to push Widmore aside.

  • Ben is a stickler for the island's rules, but I wouldn't be surprised if those rules exist only in Ben's mind. Like all good politicians, he gained power by constructing an ethical framework and binding his minions to it through guilt. And he upended the installed administration (Widmore) by harping on its disregard for the island's scripture: Off-island visits?! Fathering a child with a non-Other?! OUTRAGEOUS!

    (Note: Now we can assume that Penny wasn't born on the island, right?)

Two island mysteries were kinda-sorta addressed in this episode's Ben-Locke segments:

  1. The whispers -- we still don't know what they are or where they come from, but emo-hair Ben tells young Rousseau that if she wants to live, she'll run every time she hears the whispers. Presumably, the Others have control over the whispers ... and that leads me to believe they aren't connected to Smokey because Smokey doesn't take kindly to control.
  2. Smokey and his/her/its associated mythology get some sweet screen time in "Dead Is Dead." We learn the Others don't have a word for Smokey (which I don't buy ... if a sentient cloud zips through your camp with regularity, you name that friggin' thing), and we see that Ben usually summons Smokey by draining an ancient puddle hidden behind the panic room in his condo (a process we partially encountered in "The Shape of Things to Come").

    Ben doesn't know where Smokey lives (a dubious claim), so Locke has to guide Ben to Smokey's lair -- a deep, dark, hieroglyph-adorned (TiVo alert!) set of halls hidden beneath the temple's outer wall. It's here the creature uses its built-in HD screens and surround sound to unleash a high-res A/V mind show that makes Ben feel real bad about his failure as a father. Smokey (or an associate) also whips out the ol' "resurrection" trick when it takes the form of Alex.

    Despite all this information,we still don't know what Smokey is, who it works for, or if it's the only entity that can physically reincarnate someone who died on the island (is Christian Shephard one of Smokey's forms, or is he something different?).

Point 2
Ilana

Caesar
The Ajiran's have a rough week:
  • Caesar, the Ajiran's naive self-appointed leader, is shot by Ben. It was a shocker, but I bet we'll see Caesar again in some capacity. They lingered on this guy too long to justify a Frogurt-esque death.
  • The Ajirans spend most of the episode trying to move and/or open a large metal crate. I'm guessing the crate holds Locke's casket (and maybe his body ... a la Kara Thrace?).
  • The question "what lies in the shadow of the statue?" takes on significant and unexplained meaning. Ilana poses this question to Frank Lapidus when he returns from the big island, and when Frank responds with a quizzical look, Ilana cracks him with a rifle handle and orders him tied up.

    Uh, what?

    Were the Ajirans exposed to something? Are some of them more connected to the island than we thought? And what does lie in the shadow of the statue?

Point 3
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "This gentleman and I are taking a boat. Does anyone else have a problem with that?" -- Ben, questioning onlookers after blowing open Caesar's chest.
  • Second Best Line: " It's not a train John. It doesn't run on a schedule" -- Ben, explaining Smokey's fickle nature.
  • Third Best Line: "I was just hoping for an apology." -- Locke's reasonable request of Ben, post-murder.
  • Ben seems surprised to see Hurley, Kate and Jack in the 1977 Dharma picture, but I don't trust his response. It's possible Ben has memories of them ... and maybe he knows some of their fates as well (ie -- if any of the '77 crew dies, young Ben might have stored that knowledge away).
  • How, and when, did Widmore amass his fortune? We've seen Widmore on the island at 17 (1954), 40 (1977), early 50s (circa 1988 - Alex's kidnapping), and mid-late 50s (Alex is a little kid when he's exiled). Did he inherit his money? Did he spend years off-island building his empire?
  • Who is Penny's mother? If we're to believe Ben -- a stretch, I know -- Penny's mom is a non-islander. This would seem to eliminate Mrs. Hawking from contention.
  • I know it wouldn't make any sense, but I wish Ben introduced himself as Henry Gale when he met Caesar.
  • Last week I incorrectly suggested that young Ben's Alpertian mind-meld will make him believe he was born on the island, but then I remembered in "Man Behind the Curtain" evil bug-eyed Ben admits to Locke that he's an off-island bastard child. So much for that.
  • For a woman desperate to reunite with her presumed-dead husband, Sun is unusually patient. She waits in Ben's condo for resurrected John Locke to return, then she happily tags along on Ben's atonement journey. It's only a matter of time before she cracks right down the center.

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"Some Like It Hoth" -- Best ... episode title ... ever. Dharma tempers flare after young Ben disappears from the infirmary. Airs Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

mif is mif

#1. Posted by: meg is meg at April 9, 2009 12:17 AM

MIF!

#2. Posted by: onelostdude at April 9, 2009 12:17 AM

Did anyone catch the Wizard of Oz reference in there, when Locke was clicking the heels of Christian's magix proxy shoes together?

#3. Posted by: vintaag at April 9, 2009 12:19 AM

What was that water-flushing stuff Ben had in his secret panic room? anyone can explain it? given that Smokey probably would show up in the Temple anyway... BTW, GRAA

#4. Posted by: Mauri at April 9, 2009 12:29 AM

Does anyone think that maybe Ben gave away too much information to Charles Widmore when he called from the marina? Perhaps Charles found out what flight Ben was taking and then discovered that the O5 were also ticket holders for that flight and so he sent some of his people along on the flight too? Perhaps Ilana and the others who were moving that large crate are Widmore's people?

#5. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at April 9, 2009 12:45 AM

Lots of info to assimilate and lots more mysteries. One question at the moment: didn't Rousseau back in season 1 or so claim that there was something with smoke rising just before the Others came for Alex?

#6. Posted by: Plain Simple at April 9, 2009 12:59 AM

A few more questions:

We see a young-teen Ethan with Ben when he takes baby Alex. This was before the purge, so how did Ethan become one of the "others"?

Ben told Widmore the name of the boat that Penny & Desmond (and little Charlie) were living on. Widmore will now be able to find them. Will this be significant?

We have seen Widmore age from about 20 years old to in his mid- to late-50's while living on the island. Yet Richard Alpert has been living on the island during that same period of time and has not aged at all. I would have to assume that the anti-aging qualities of the island don't apply to all the "others" just to Richard. Why?

Oh and I failed to mention that I am SOOOOOOOO glad that nothing happened to Penny.

#7. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at April 9, 2009 1:11 AM

GRAA Thanks Mac

#3 Thanks for the shoe thing. I didn't click onto that one, love it.

But I love how "Daddy's" Shoes keep kicking around. Can't wait for more of their travels.

A faux pas for moi: Benny goes into his hidden basement of his old office and enters the (what do I call it?), picks up the already available lantern, (man, I've lost track of that thing's travels, when and where...), goes to the puddle of scum and turns the Mini Wheel. The puddle of scum proceeds to vacate to we know not where, and as this vortex of swill empties, there is no sight of the gadget that Benny turned? Help anyone?

Once again we get the heiroglyphic image of "The Eye of Rah" on the alter of Smokey. So if we think Rah is RA then who is the egyptian jeckle thing facing the "eye" supposed to be.

Now I've lost the plot on, what is turning out to be a very large underground labrynth of ancient ruins. There's an entrance in Ben's old office basement, then they walk to the "wall that surrouds the temple" and go down there. Then there's the entrance from the Well, as well as the entrance from the Orchid. Just how big is this underground network? And what is it's purpose?

Loved this Ben-isode

#8. Posted by: Dee at April 9, 2009 1:16 AM

Why would the Others let Dharma build their colony right by the Smokey-summoning room?

#9. Posted by: Blinky at April 9, 2009 1:33 AM

Darn...

So easy to fall behind! Didn't even get a chance to read last weeks comments.

Definitely need to re-watch this one.

re: Water drainage

Is it possible that smokey and water don't mix? Could the water have been blocking an access route for Smokey?

My feeling was that Ben really did not remember any of the Losties from his childhood in the 70's.

I wonder how Ben manages to re-integrate with Dharma, and when!

#10. Posted by: shikotee at April 9, 2009 1:34 AM

I suppose this really isn't your fault.

But I'm watching BSG via Netflix, and only JUST started Season 4, so the Kara Thrace comment... oof.

#11. Posted by: Ajay at April 9, 2009 1:35 AM

VGAIS(osiss)FH

Vindictive Ghost Alex Is Smoking (or should I say smokey) Hot

#12. Posted by: Debunker at April 9, 2009 2:09 AM

"I know it wouldn't make any sense, but I wish Ben introduced himself as Henry Gale when he met Caesar."

I was SOOOOO thinking the same thing!!!

I hope they come back around to ol' Henry Gale at some point. It seems like they are so pressed to get their critical story points all done now before they run out of episodes that they're bound to miss some of that stuff. I don't need all the loose ends tied up in a nice little bow, but I'm praying they at least tie some decent 'stop knots.'

#13. Posted by: MadamIm at April 9, 2009 2:39 AM

So Smokey is summoned by pulling a plug, eh?

o~~~~~~

Have we now established once and for all that the reception center is in New Otherton?

o~~~~~~

That was definitely a Ra symbol (The Jackel-headed god) over Smokey's entrance grate.

o~~~~~~

Don't be so sure about seeing Caesar again - remember all the fuss over the Australian actress (can't remember her name but she was the woman who committed suicide by drowning on the freighter) only to have her gone with hardly a line other than over the radio?

o~~~~~~

@mac

>How, and when, did Widmore amass his fortune? We've seen Widmore on the island at 17 (1954), 40 (1977), early 50s (circa 1988 - Alex's kidnapping), and mid-late 50s (Alex is a little kid when he's exiled). Did he inherit his money? Did he spend years off-island building his empire?

Perhaps the whole Dharma Initiative was a front - a simple way for Widmore to relieve Hanso of a fortune.

o~~~~~~

It looked to me like Desmond was bashing Ben solely with his left hand - perhaps the right arm was disabled by Ben's shot. Ans perhaps that alone accounts for why Ben survived.

#14. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 9, 2009 3:40 AM

Correting myself:

Oops. The jackel-headed god is Anubis, of course.

#15. Posted by: Cecil at April 9, 2009 4:19 AM

The egyptian God facing the eye was no other than Anubis, God of death and judge of the afterlife. It is said he would weigh a man's deeds after death and pass on the final judgement. LOVED that scene.

#16. Posted by: Cursed at April 9, 2009 4:42 AM

just a little correction (After more careful study of the mythology) - sorry for double-posting.

anubis was apparently the God associated with dying, and the one responsable for the "weighing of the heart" against the "feather of truth". so making ben feel guilty about his daughter's death seems to make Smokey more or less a good embodiment of that mythology.

and still the question on my mind is - who built that damn temple? and did anyone else notice how richard alpert kinda fits the "egyptian profile"?

#17. Posted by: Cursed at April 9, 2009 4:58 AM

Hi, great comments, one thing i noticed and i hope im not going crazy, but the man who ran and spoke to Frank Lapedis on the beach, he a survivor of ajira flight i presume, im sure hes the same actor who played NATHAN in the other 48 days episode in season 2, hes even wearing the exact same clothes,(purple shirt) he spoke to frank just before llana hit him. Does anyne have a screen shot?

#18. Posted by: Daryl at April 9, 2009 6:03 AM

Great episode!
I love there we're getting all the answers. I mean, now they are talking to each other.

My comments:

@12. Posted by: Debunker
LOOOL! LOL! LOL! And you're totally right!

........

Thank God Penny and little Charlie are fine!
I really love Des (ever since he played Jesus in The Gospel according to John) and wouldn't like to see him suffer again.

........

He's not my favorite character but ILBLXXX is absolutely right: Ben rules!
He was just practical about the whole murdering Locke business. He´s a hell of a manager!

@10. Posted by: shikotee
If young Ben joins Dharma again after our Losties are gone, it makes sense he doesn't remember them back in the days, since the cure process made him forget about their arrival.
Now the question is... Where/when/how/why did the Losties go?

Also makes perfect sense to me that he's a sucker for kids after the treatment he got from his father who blamed him for his mother's death.

........

Frank Lapidus:
If I was a pilot plane crashed on a freaking island, that once disappeared before my eyes, briefed on the your friends are in the 70's story and talking to a guy risen from the dead... I would stick around for some answers, for Christ sake!
But I guess we need someone we can trust with Widmore's crew.
The best line is his: "As long as the dead guy says there's a reason I'm sure that the rest is just peachy."

........

Widmore's crew:
Ben told Charles that he was going back so Widmore managed to get his people on Ajira 316 (maybe with Hawkings help?)
The question Ilana asks Lapidus is some kind of recognition code, a la cold war spy stuff. If Frank knew the right answer then he was on their team.
Remember Widmore saying the war is coming? Perhaps he plans to take over the island. In the present.

........

We were right! The statue is DEFINETELY Anubis and Smokey is the serpent god Apep.

@17. Posted by: Cursed
"did anyone else notice how richard alpert kinda fits the "egyptian profile"?"

Yes, AGES ago :)


........

GRAA, Mac! Even short in time your the best!

Beijos & Abraços!
NC

#19. Posted by: PreacherOnun at April 9, 2009 6:21 AM

Desmond will be fine because the island isn't finished with him yet.

#20. Posted by: jeffm at April 9, 2009 6:32 AM

All I could think about last night was "How the heck will MAC sort all this stuff out by 1 A.M.?" Nice job on the synopsis!

I'm looking forward to hitting the DVR this morning and watching it again. Season 1 seemed so simple to me now . . . and I was confused most of the time THEN!

Great makeup work on Widmore and Ben last night!


#21. Posted by: davidrh at April 9, 2009 6:34 AM

Excellent ep! A couple of things:
Did anyone else notice a portrait of Julliet on the wall in Ben's house? I'll have to check that out again.
When Ben, Locke, and Sun went off on their trek to see smokey, I could not help but think " We are off to see the wizard!"
"The Great Oz" parallels included big headed talkers and of course, smoke and fear! "Who is that man behind the curtain?" and " What lies beneath the shadow of the Statue"?
Man, I love this show!
Thanks for the great review and insightful comments. Someone hit the Egyptian nail on the head last week. Kudos!

#22. Posted by: cjazure at April 9, 2009 7:05 AM

(Long time reader, first time post)

Does anyone else think that resurrected Locke (and Christian for that matter) is an embodiment of the Smoke Monster? In other words, Locke really is dead, but the Locke we are seeing now is actually Smokey -- just like Alex in last night's episode.

It seems like there were some clues or references to that effect in last night's episode, but maybe I was reading into it too much. Certainly the fact that the Smoke Monster can "make people" (e.g. Alex) might be a hint. Also, the coincidence of Locke not being around when the Smoke Monster did his judgment of Ben. And Ben's line towards the beginning of the episode that, although the island can save people, not even the island can bring someone back to life (something to that effect). It also explains why John appears to know everything about the island now, particularly how to get to the Temple.

Just a thought.

#23. Posted by: cec at April 9, 2009 7:09 AM

I personally think Smokey is an entity that no one is controlling. Ok here's my theory: The island shifts in time and so do its inhabitants. People coming from the future, going to the past etc... Smokey might be an entity from the future that had a specific "defense" purpose in the future and since in the "right now" island has no one controlling it and it's roaming around freely wreaking havoc and having a blast at it. Smokey comes from the future and Richard Alpert has got to be Ponce the Leon, the actual discoverer of the fountain of youth....
Mac.. you rock dude!

#24. Posted by: mapache at April 9, 2009 7:11 AM

I didn't trust Ben's response to seeing them in the picture from 1977 either. I figured the reason Ben had that thick file on Jack so quickly, and possibly why some were on a list that Ethan or Goodwin had, was those on the lists were followed throughout their life, because Ben knew they would come to the island.

#25. Posted by: JiLilliput at April 9, 2009 7:34 AM

In response to Post 25:

Remember how Ben had all of those passports in "The Shape of Things to Come"? Maybe he was tracking pretty closely throughout the years ...

I like that idea, JiLilliput.

#26. Posted by: cec at April 9, 2009 7:53 AM

Did I hear correct? Did Richard Alpert say "Jacob wanted to die too.." ???? That statement was mind-boggling..

#27. Posted by: Jag at April 9, 2009 8:17 AM

@27: Yeah, heard that too... But listened to it carefully a couple of times, until I figured it said 'Jacob wanted IT DONE'. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

#28. Posted by: Mauri at April 9, 2009 8:26 AM

@Ajay -- Sorry if that ruined things for you, but at some point the law of diminishing returns kicks in for withholding information. And, really, a true spoiler is a hidden detail revealed before a broadcast, not well after. So while I feel your pain -- and implore you to continue watching BSG because the finale is so worth it -- I feel the Kara reference is reasonable.

#29. Posted by: mac at April 9, 2009 8:46 AM

I thought the comment about "What is in the shadow of the statue?" went back to when Sawyer, Juliet and all of them were jumping around in time. There was one jump when they saw the statue, and I think the well was in its shadow, right?

#30. Posted by: meg at April 9, 2009 8:48 AM

Is it me or was the acting in this episode very weak? I really didnt like any of the flashbacks pertaining to Ben this week. We spend so much time breaking down every detail on this blog that I find it very difficult getting surprised by anything that happens anymore.

I had a feeling that Ben's flashbacks were going to include Alex, Richard and Charles. I also had a feeling that they were going to finally reveal the cause of Ben's injuries before boarding the plane.

John Locke should def be considered for an Emy this season. He was the lone bright spot in the episode. I too agree with Mac regarding Widmore's departure of the Island. It was very anticlimatic.....

When are we finally going to see the temple?!?!?

I realize that the creators have a deadline now and therefore have to rush to get everything completed but I feel like the production value has taken a hit. Earlier seasons were much more entertaining... I'm a die hard fan and will continue to watch every single episode regardless.

#31. Posted by: Michaelmvp at April 9, 2009 8:49 AM

If Penny was born off island does that mean that Mrs. Eloise Hawking is not Ellie? Does it also mean that Faraday and Penny are possibly brother and sister? Those family reunions are going to be awkward!

Does a coffin really get crated up like that? I would think some straps to keep the lid down would suffice.

It seems that Caesar, Ilana, and three redshirts had something planned for going to Guam. Why would they be dragging Locke's coffin inland if they think he is inside?

@5/Christine Loves Lost: Presumably Widmore doesn't know where Penny is. When Desmond last visited him, he wanted to know where Penny was and Desmond would not tell him. They are trying to hide from Daddy because they don't want anything to do with him.

And if the island can save all these people, when will we see Dr. Arzt reconstituted? It was just a flesh wound!

#32. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 9, 2009 8:51 AM

Very nicely done, Mac. Lotta points covered very succinctly.

"I'm guessing the crate holds Locke's casket (and maybe his body ... a la Kara Thrace?). "

When I read that, the - I swear - first thing that popped in my head was that the crate holds Widmore's body. Just a feeling, but it just feels so right.

Ilana & Co. are Widmorians. Bringing their master home. Ben's in for quite the little surprise.

Can anybody tell for sure where Des got shot? I mean other than in the gallon of milk. He did pummel Ben exclusively with his left hand (sinister that), so maybe in his right shoulder?

So nice to see Alex again. When she was threatening Ben, I thought for sure she was going to say, "And don't you harm one hair on his head." Kinda made me chuckle...

#33. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 9, 2009 8:51 AM

Whats BSG?

#34. Posted by: Renee at April 9, 2009 8:52 AM

Ok Here are my thoughts. Since Ben has a soft spot for children, when he kills all the Dharma group, the children are spared. This is how Ethan becomes one of the others.
Also, I believe that Eloise Hawkings figured out how to get back to the island and alerted Widmore to the details. I think that Ajira Airlines is controlled by Widmore and was full of his people so that they could get back to the island and take control. The question that Ilana asks Lapedis is a code word to make sure who is actually part of the Widmore Group.

Just my thoughts!

#35. Posted by: Bubba at April 9, 2009 8:55 AM

OH... MY! That's all I've got to say right now.

#36. Posted by: BEMH at April 9, 2009 8:57 AM

Whats BSG?

#37. Posted by: Renee at April 9, 2009 9:14 AM

@ 33. Posted by: ransomjackson

"Ilana & Co. are Widmorians. Bringing their master home. Ben's in for quite the little surprise."

I LOVE this idea. He would have to have very quick turn around time to accomplish that, though. I hope it comes to fruition because THAT would be an awesome showdown.

***************************************

@ 34. Posted by: Renee

BSG = Battlestar Galactica

#######################################

And let me end with WOW, great episode!

#38. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 9, 2009 9:15 AM

RE: Whats BSG?

→ 37. Posted by: Renee at April 9, 2009 9:14 AM

BSG = Battle Star Gallactica

#39. Posted by: Teddy Alvin at April 9, 2009 9:20 AM

@35 Bubba: "Ben has a soft spot for children"

I think THIS explains why Ben spent so much "mis-directed" time (according to Richard Alpert) trying to keep the pregnant mothers on the island from dying when giving birth. And why the Others "abducted" (or tried to) all of the 815 children (where are those kids, by the way?). It turns out, Ben does seem to have a soft spot for children, and it seems to have all started when he kidnapped baby Alex. It does also seem, however, that his conniving nature also started around that time, because he didn't seem to have any problem undermining Charles Widmore, in front of the whole Others camp to boot!

#40. Posted by: Stocky at April 9, 2009 9:21 AM

@ 32-PiecesofArtz ***Does a coffin really get crated up like that? I would think some straps to keep the lid down would suffice. Why would they be dragging Locke's coffin inland if they think he is inside?***
_________________________

I am a funeral director/embalmer and yes, a casket does get crated for shipment, however the requirements for a domestic flight are a wooden "tray" with a cardboard top strapped down. International flights usually require a hermetically sealed (think canned goods) "zigler case" for transport. That being said, I have never seen a "zigler" case quite that elaborate. I believe perhaps they were trying to get guns or supplies from that case.

Also, I love how Ben set Ceasar up to take the fall so he could be the "good guy" again to Locke without actually having to apologize for killing him. Ben truly is a master manipulator...

#41. Posted by: Three Men and a Baby (I counted Hugo twice...) at April 9, 2009 9:23 AM

What lies in the shadow of the statue?
It was confusing at the time since in 2007 all that would be left of the statue is the foot and that wouldn't cast much of a shadow. The well has to be the answer to the riddle. The idea that it was a password code for a Widmore group makes sense. Love that idea that Widmore's body is in the crate but then why wouldn't he FOOM out to life like Locke did? Or did he? If he did where is he?

Also Ben's lying was so prevalent with telling Locke that he killed him merely because he knew it wasa the way to get everyone back and that Locke would be resurrected but then he tells Sun that he didn't know Locke would come back to life.
Also great point cec #23 that Locke was absent when the smoke monster came around. very intersting indeed!
Loved Ben's conversation with Caesar weaving his lies so easily to build Caesar's distrust of Locke as a crazy person who as already on the island. Lying and manipulation comes so effortlessly to Ben and Emerson sells it so well. I would have been really bummed if Smokey had snuffed his torch in the temple basement.

#42. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 9, 2009 9:23 AM

GRAA Mac!

→ 30. Posted by: meg

During the flash when we got a glimpse of the statue, the well was gone. The temple walls lie in the shadow of the statue.

#43. Posted by: Flom at April 9, 2009 9:27 AM

Mac - Amazing how you work. Thanks so much. You must have as much information on this show as Ben has on the Losties!!!

@35 I agree that Widmore is in the box, that those are his crew, and that we're headed for some kind of war, as Charles said. "Shadow..." statement is code, for sure.

I love Locke's way about him. Very passive, so far. I think Locke, C. Shepherd, Claire, show this passiveness - but all knowing - way about them. Obviously, it's because they're dead and ???

All in all a great epi and one that got away from all that time travel stuff that seemed to be taking away from the show.

#44. Posted by: dk at April 9, 2009 9:27 AM

@35 Bubba: "Ben has a soft spot for children"

Kinda makes Ben sound like Michael Jackson...

#45. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 9, 2009 9:28 AM

Can somebody help me out on the timeline here?

Young homicidal-wannabe Ethan appeared to be what, maybe 12-15 years old? Maybe a little older? A little younger? And if he was born ~1977, that'd put Alex's kidnapping circa early 90's? And if Alex was ~17 in 2004 she'd've been born +/- 1987? Alex was definitely no more than 6-9 months when Ben stole her.

I may be off in my ages and dates - just trying to tie it all together.

Yeah, I know. good luck with that.

#46. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 9, 2009 9:28 AM

@12. Posted by: Debunker
re: VGAIS(osiss)FH

What was the F for? ;)

Yup - Very nice to see hottie Alex return.

#47. Posted by: shikotee at April 9, 2009 9:28 AM

@41/3M&aB: Thanks for the info! I agree that the big metal box seems to be a bit elaborate for holding a coffin of someone whose funeral was in a slum, an apparent suicide, and attended by no one. Lots of expense there. Even with Ben funding it, why would the Ajirans pull it out of an otherwise intact airplane?

#48. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 9, 2009 9:30 AM

Oh forgot to comment on my excitement about the preview for next week which looks like their finally going to doing something with Miles!
"Dude you can like talk to dead people right?"
Sounds like we might get some more answers next week as we did this week. The old Lost train is picking up steam!

#49. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 9, 2009 9:32 AM

Could Ethan have possibly been abducted from Dharma at an early age?
If he was born in approx 74, Danielle arrived approx 88, Ben steals Alex shortly there after, the purge was approx 92. Ethan would have to have become an other before the purge.

#50. Posted by: thelostwaltz at April 9, 2009 9:33 AM

@238 last week - Mizzed

Maybe Lostpedia isn't canon after all.
I, like Locke, only want an apology.

#51. Posted by: mtncbn at April 9, 2009 9:39 AM

I think that Ben pulling the drain was symbolic of flushing the time travel story line down the drain. My theory that the show is about lost souls (the dead) making a journey of redemption through the underworld (the TPRB mash-up of religion and Egyptian mythology) is really at the forefront of this episode.

The wall was not a wall, but clearly part of a pyramid temple complex. Pyramids were constructed for the pharaohs journey into the afterlife.

Anubis, the jackel head god, became considered more the gatekeeper and ruler of the underworld, the "Guardian of the veil" (of "death"). Consequently, he was said to protect souls as they journeyed there, and thus be the patron of lost souls (and consequently orphans). Anubis was frequently depicted in editions of the Book of Dead as performing the "Opening of the Mouth" as escorting the spirit of the deceased into the presence of Osiris in the underworld. Subsequently, Anubis is often shown weighing the heart of the deceased against the feather of truth (Ma'at) in the presence of Thoth (as scribe and a god of wisdom-knowledge, writing down the recordings) and Osiris (as judge of the Dead).

Anubis was depicted in direct conflict with a serpent demon on the wall above Smokey's grate. If one did not pass the weighing of the heart test, that person's soul would be devoured by a serpent and cease to exist in the afterlife (with no chance of rebirth.)

Ben attempted to lift the weight on his heart (sin, lies) by confessing sorrow to Desmond before he went down into the wall because he knew this could be his final judgment of his soul. In the end, Ben was only tested by the underworld spirits.

In this world, if one acknowledges and accepts his own Death, then that person gains knowledge of his journey. And knowledge is power to control your destiny, redemption and rebirth as set forth in the Book of the Dead. Locke has come to this realization and he can now calmly control his situation.

#52. Posted by: welh at April 9, 2009 9:39 AM

@9. Posted by: Blinky - Excellent point. Suppose the Others built that secret room & summoning device after the Dharma purge, when they took over the village?

@mac, cecil/14

>How, and when, did Widmore amass his fortune?
Ben mentioned that Widmore had left the island regularly. Since Widmore didn't refute that, we can presume that it's true. That would give him money- & power-collecting opportunities, whether connected to Hanso or not.

@45. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes
ROTFLMAO! I couldn't verbalize what was bothering me about that - you nailed it.

I really enjoyed watching Ben lie to everyone - it was so obvious & so deliciously effective. One thing I love about the show is that while we all hate Ben for lying - I think mostly because we want to know what's truly going on - I also think Locke was an idiot for telling Caesar the truth about being dead. But since he's Obi-Locke again, nothing can hurt him.

#53. Posted by: hurling at April 9, 2009 9:46 AM

So thought when Ben said to tell Desmond he was sorry that it meant he had killed Penny...only to find out that he hadn't! I was very gland but then what exactly is he apologizing to Desmond for? For shooting him? He's done much worse to others without offering a genuine apology. Found it curious...

#54. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 9, 2009 9:46 AM

Renee . . don't feel alone. I didn't know what a BSG was either . . .

I didn't realize that anyone said his name out loud. How do we know that the boy with Ben was Ethan?

I agree with FLOM . . . I think those people are looking for the temple. That was what was in the shadow of the statue.

Of course, it could also be "Big Boy Restaurant" also . .

I know there was a rumor that someone was getting knocked off in this episode. Having explored about 6 blogs last week I am happy to report that not a single blog had Caesar on the Deathwatch. The writers did a "got-cha" on us.

#55. Posted by: davidrh at April 9, 2009 9:48 AM

I still believe that with all his trips off island Charles started the Dharma initiative and brought them to the island. So I think they probably built the barracks over the site of the Smokey summoner as they seemed to build other Dharma stations over Other sacred places. Seems like this would be one of the many transgressions made against the island leading to his eventual banishment.


BHASSFC!see post 45...

#56. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 9, 2009 9:52 AM

I nominate me for stupid question of the week...

******************************

When Ben flushed the Smokey Drain, which way did the water go down? Clock-wise or counter-clock-wise?

Because the show is filmed in Hawaii, which is north of the equator, but the island - I believe - is supposed to be south of the equator.

And water flushes the opposite way depending upon which side of the equator you're on.

****************************

End of stupid question. Now back to your regular programming.

#57. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 9, 2009 9:57 AM

Missed LOST yet again (damn computer class)... Agree that the line by Ilana sounds like a recognition code, à la what Desmond asked Locke for back in S2.

→ 40. Posted by: Stocky: Ben's soft spot for kids:

Good point...

WAT815K? (Where Are the 815 Kids?) ; )

→ 46. ransomjackson: Alex, Ethan, & dates:

Ethan would have been 10-12 when Alex was born circa 1988. I'm being vague only because we don't know when in 1977 Ethan was born, & whether Alex was born in 1988 or 1989, again depending on when in 1988 Rousseau & her team arrived on the island. If I remember correctly, Rousseau said way back in S1 that "the Others" came & took Alex away when she (Alex) was only a week old. So the Alex-napping would have happened no later than early 1989, & Ethan would have been no more than 12. Ben would have been in his mid-late 20s.

→ 52. welh: Egyptian mythology influence on LOST:

Ding ding ding! You won the jackpot... Good call! : )

#58. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 9, 2009 10:03 AM

@46: I don't see any inconsistency with your numbers. It has been stated on the show many times that Danielle was marooned on the island in 1988. We also saw that she was very pregnant when they arrived on the island. That would mean that Alex was born in 1988 (maybe early 1989) -- and hence, she would be 16 in 2004. That would mean that Ethan would have been 11 or 12 when Alex was kidnapped.

#59. Posted by: Charliesghost at April 9, 2009 10:04 AM

I do agree that some of the passengers are likely Windmore's people, but I don't believe Windmore is in the box. Didn't Ben just talk to him hours before? Who would have killed him, and even if they did, he would not be packaged up for transport so quickly. There would be an investigation, etc. Or, are posters implying he is in there alive? I think it would make more sense if he boarded the plane in disguise if his goal was to get to the island on the plane. Likely guns/supplies/other assets are in the case for Widmore's people.

I too am thrilled Desmond, Penny, and their son are alive! I'm sure Desmond and Penny still have more to add to the story.

I also like the theory about why the 815 children were taken. Still no answer for why women couldn't give birth and would die, but I think that has to do with time travel gone wrong. The children are dying because they are not supposed to exist. But that doesn't explain why the mothers would also die.

#60. Posted by: BEMH at April 9, 2009 10:05 AM

I have a thought about Ben remembering the Losties.

When Ben woke up in the infirmary, he clearly remembered things from before he was shot. He remembered his father and seemed to recall his cruelty. I think it is safe to say he would remember other people too. What he doesn't seem to remember is being shot or the details surrounding that event (ie. who shot him, who saved him, etc). I think it is definitely possible for Ben to remember the Losties from the 70s, especially those that he lived with for 3 years. But I can't recall if young Ben ever actually encountered Jack, Kate, and Hurley before he helped Sayid escape.

I think we are learning why the children have been so important to the Others in the past as well. Ben has a soft spot for kids!

#61. Posted by: Tim M at April 9, 2009 10:08 AM

for me this episode was just ok. i expected way more mental torture, guilt and reckoning from smokey towards ben. he got off way to easy compared to those who have been visited by smokey. so my question is why??

my fav line was when ben was explaining to john why he killed him and ben says, "well i didnt have time to coax you back into hanging yourself john."

maybe its just me but, even if i were captain of an airplane i still wouldnt walk up on a bunch of armed people without a weapon and...umhhhh... some back up..... just a thought.

#62. Posted by: tiffani at April 9, 2009 10:10 AM

Hey long time reader, hardly ever poster, just wanted to address something that hasn't been picked up on;
when Sun is talking to Ben and Locke about what she and Lapidus are doing, she mentions Christian, and I could almost see a shiver move up Ben's spine like he recognised that name!

Anyone feel like a shiver went up Ben's spine?

I loved this episode :)

#63. Posted by: AC at April 9, 2009 10:11 AM

@45 Crispy Seaplanes:

"Ben has a soft spot for children".

"Michael has touched children on their soft spot".

#64. Posted by: Bubba at April 9, 2009 10:13 AM

Mac, I agree, the banishment of Widmore felt anticlimactic to me, too. Although it's my favorite show ever, sometimes LOST takes a Cliff's Notes attitude toward some of the story threads. I felt the exact same way last season during the Locke-centric episode in which several of his story threads felt rushed and Cliff's Notes-y.

That said ....

The coffin and Ilana: I'd have to re-watch the episode, but didn't someone tell Lapidus that they found a bunch of rifles and guns? I assumed Ilana and her goons put those guns INSIDE THE COFFIN, and that was why it was so hard to lift and carry.

#65. Posted by: DCMatt at April 9, 2009 10:17 AM

Alaïs_Longthought & Charliesghost,

Thanks - I knew somebody could/would help me make sense of it. I didn't think there was a problem with the timeline...I was just having a problem reconciling it. Not enough caffeine yet.

Young Ethan sure seems a tad bloodthirsty and eager to make his bones though, doesn't he? Ben seemed to take him under his wing, like an apprentice, or a son.

Maybe Ben can't have kids (narrow urethra?), and that's why he's such a softie?

Even Michael Jackson can have kids (or so we're led to believe). And I meant that in the best way possible.

#66. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 9, 2009 10:20 AM

GRAA Mac!
This episode is in my top 3 for the season (Jughead, Premiere, Dead is Dead).

First Geek moment:
Did anyone notice the writing on the pillar described the exodus of Egypt?

Ok, Ben does have a soft spot for kids but you have to admit he 'Man upped' for his judgment. I feel that Ben will be the good guy when it is over and Charles is the bad apple.

I love this show.

#67. Posted by: AbeFroman at April 9, 2009 10:35 AM

Ask and you shall receive. Last week I queried "When/ How is Alex kidnapped?" Well, now I know. Thanks, powers that be. :)

Laughed out loud when Ben so quickly plays Cesar, just in case, and then dispatches him to keep Locke alive and grateful. It's always entertaining to watch a master at work.

Locke rocked. He is more Obi-Locke than ever. "You can destroy me but I'll come back more powerful than ever" or something to that effect. Locke seems so much more in control and now Ben has to follow him...don't see that working for too long at all.

Thank God Penny is okay. (TGPIOK) I don't think I could have recovered from that. It's the only thing that seems good and true on this show. She was so incredibly composed, too. I think that I want to be Penny when I grow up... on a boat, with Des, traveling the world... sorry, I digress.

Overall, I was really hoping for some more answers on the Smokey front. I did like the Smokey grate, though. Visually, it pleased me for some reason. Maybe they used it to smoke Dharma salmon.

#68. Posted by: lardiea at April 9, 2009 10:45 AM

Loved the symmetry of Locke looking down from above the temple holding a torch while Ben led the way vs. Locke looking down the hatch holding a torch while Kate led the way. I think it's a great reflection on the complexities of Locke's character, i.e. is he a true leader? He was right in saying he hadn't changed much since dying...he seems to still be a mix of certainty and insecurity.

#69. Posted by: mdodge at April 9, 2009 10:48 AM

Enjoyed the ep, but like others, felt a little rushed with all the info that was packed in. But enjoyed getting some answers.

And Mac. Agreed. What was up with Sun? If there is Wizard of OZ metaphor here, Sun is definitely little Toto "in tow".

...and like the Locke disappearance during Smokey's appearance theories as well.

#70. Posted by: IslandHopper at April 9, 2009 10:49 AM

(Started reading this season. First post)

GRAA Mac! Also love the commentary each week.

I agree with previous posters that the Ilana question is a code to establish all the Widmore groupies.

I think the crate contains some sort of technogadget that Widmore has been working on for a very long time which will allow him to locate the island and get him back there. He has been waiting for the opportunity to send it and a group of undercovers to begin his takeover of the island, which is the war her referred to with Locke.

#71. Posted by: Hoogie at April 9, 2009 10:49 AM

Great review, Mac!

I've seen a lot of posts about Egyptian mythology, which is definitely the right track for this. I'd like to see screenshots of the temple walls to see the hieroglyphs if anyone has good ones.

I think it is more likely that Smokey is Ammit, not Apep. The hearts of the dead were weighed by Anubis against a feather from the headress of Ma'at (the "Feather of Truth"). If your heart was heavier than the feather, it was given to Ammit to be eaten and the soul is not permitted to enter Aaru (the Egyptian version of paradise) and existed for the rest of eternity in restlessness.

Look forward to hearing comments.

#72. Posted by: DarkestHour at April 9, 2009 10:56 AM

I feel that Ben will be the good guy when it is over and Charles is the bad apple.

→ 67. Posted by: AbeFroman

I agree. All Smokey judged him on was his relationship with Alex. It would seem he is correct when he claims that he is doing what the island wants him to do. Otherwise Ben's countless other seemingly evil actions would have been examined as well...
Does that make Ben a good guy? We'll see. Even though he seems to be right that the island wanted him to do all the things he's done, do we know if the island is good or bad? Anything that demands someone commit the atrocious acts Ben has done in its behalf would not seem to be a good thing...

#73. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 9, 2009 10:56 AM

"What lies in the shadow of the statue?"
Ben, of course. He lies everywhere. About everything.

@65 --I thought I heard "Nathan" or whoever it was saying "they found some guns" and assumed that was what was in Ilana's magic zigler box.

Loved the gliph of Anubis and Smokey/snake. I think Jacob is Anubis.

Ben called Ethan Ethan and that's how we know he is Ethan.

Congrats to all who called exactly what Ben was planning to do at the dock. I was relieved and surprised also that he didn't kill Penny, and wonder too what he is sorry for vis-a-vis Desmond.

GRAA Mac!

#74. Posted by: Glostover at April 9, 2009 10:58 AM

Ilana's container on the beach (no way is it a coffin). Where did it come from? I don't believe it was from 316. It is a long way from the plane. Airdropped? No parachute seen. From the sea?
Maybe it's a small plane, so Ilana and crew can bomb the temple. I think it is some form of weapon for the coming war. The SS(Statue Shadow) vs. everybody.

#75. Posted by: mtncbn at April 9, 2009 11:00 AM

Ben may have a soft spot for kids but it's not his head. The guy gets beat like a rented mule!

Wasn't Widmore in London when Ben called him about Penny? It would be impossible for him to fly to LA within a few hours in order to get in a box in order to surprise Ben. Remember Ben shows up at the terminal beaten and bruised. And why would Widmore, a man of means, get in a metal box? Especially if his henchmen had already managed to get seats on the plane before Hurley bought them all?

Also Hot Alex Is Hot.

#76. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 9, 2009 11:01 AM

@74--Glostover

"Ilana's magic zigler box"

That's fun to say!

#77. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 9, 2009 11:02 AM

Couple of references to the fact that Ben fails to remember the Losties from his childhood. The writers cover themselves, I believe, when Richard tells Sawyer and Kate (when he is about to take wounded Ben in his arms) that 'Ben wont remember any of this.'

#78. Posted by: bmo at April 9, 2009 11:04 AM

@ 52. Posted by: welh I'm beginning to agree with you. All of the Egyptian references slapping us in the face all of the time seem to be too much to ignore. And now next week's episode is titled "Some Like It Hoth". That's an awfully big coincidence. Just one question though...if everyone is dead and having their souls judged, etc., how are they going off island and interacting with the living?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

@ 60. Posted by: BEMH

"I too am thrilled Desmond, Penny, and their son are alive! I'm sure Desmond and Penny still have more to add to the story."

Everyone is assuming that they scene at the marina is the end of that interaction. You know what happens when you assume... I don't think we know how that whole scenario ended...yet!

#79. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 9, 2009 11:10 AM

Since you're all so very smart here, I have a really general question. Does anyone have a theory as to why the island is referred to so often as a sentient being. It "wants" and "doesn't want" things to happen, it "isn't through with" people, people are "supposed to" turn FDWs and such. Is it the island that we're talking about, or Jacob? This may be an unanswerable question but I'm just curious.

#80. Posted by: Glostover at April 9, 2009 11:13 AM

Loved last night's episode. Several people have been saying how happy they are Penney didn't get killed, but I'm not totally sure about that. There was a lot of attention focused on Ben's messed up arm (Locke mentioned it), but from what I could see, Desmond just pounded him in the face repeatedly. I didn't really see Ben's arm get hurt. So how did he hurt his arm? Did he go back and finish the job on Penney and we haven't seen that yet? Also, he said to Sun (I think it was Sun) to apologize to Desmond for him. Why? If he didn't kill Penney, why would he need to apologize? It doesn't seem too Bennish to apologize for attempting to kill someone.

#81. Posted by: Rob Medor at April 9, 2009 11:17 AM

Ladies, I think we need to take a moment to acknowledge all of the "Alex is hot" commentary. Weren't the guys annoyed with us a few weeks back for the dirty Sawyer, blown-out Sayid, and scarf rockin' Des comments? I think they're jealous that there are way more hot guys to appreciate than hot women. Not our fault gentelmen. Talk to TPTB.

O.K., now back to real discussion ;-)

#82. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 9, 2009 11:17 AM

The Ajirans had supplies from Whitmore. Illia was a "mole" Used a code sequence to find other moles. The silver box has guns, weapons.

My take

#83. Posted by: Bus Said at April 9, 2009 11:27 AM

Thanks for reviewing the show, Mac.

What was Ben and Ethan's purpose when they went to Danielle's camp? Were they ordered to kill them both?

If so, it looks like he fakes Danielle's death and warns her to keep out of sight. "When you hear the whispers run/hide".

So he not only has a soft spot for kids but for mothers. Enough to grant them life but not enough to keep him from separating the mother and child. I would think that Ben's past would incline him to keep the baby with the mother. As he missed his mother. The others,if they don't know about Danielle, wouldn't know about the Baby either.

I think there must be another reason for his actions. He was up to something.

#84. Posted by: berkyo at April 9, 2009 11:30 AM

You know it's never quite been explained why the others have a shoot-first attitude to strangers on the island. What purpose would there have been in eliminating Rousseau, as Ben pointed out? Or similarly, when Ethan shot Locke in episode 1 of this season. Also, Alpert seems to have a history of usurping Other leaders. It seems he encouraged Ben to dispose of Charles, and was quite eager for Locke to take over from Ben. Interesting. Great episode btw.

#85. Posted by: Philie at April 9, 2009 11:31 AM

Sad to say, but I agree with all that are saying, we have not seen the end of the Marina. Penny may be dead. And Des IS coming after Ben! Who will he leave little Charlie with?

#86. Posted by: mtncbn at April 9, 2009 11:34 AM

Although I must admit that Alex looks much better last night, I can't get past the little girl I used to watch on Malcolm in the Middle :)

@berkyo - I'm fine with Juliette and Kate, and sometimes Claire :)

#87. Posted by: Q at April 9, 2009 11:35 AM

@79. Posted by: lost2theworld asked

"Just one question though...if everyone is dead and having their souls judged, etc., how are they going off island and interacting with the living?"

From the beginning, our perception was that the 815ers "survived" the plane crash and were still "alive" in the present world. If they were dead, their souls would be sent to a Fore-Hell, which is similar to Earth and what they knew from their past, as a precursor to their souls journey in the underworld and possible salvation-rebirth. There are two ways to look at the "off-island" existence: 1) that it is truly earth and their spirits can walk among the living (ex., angels-spirits coming from heaven to visit, guide mortal human beings) or 2) it is a merely manifestation of earth in cosmic plane of the afterlife.

@72. Posted by: DarkestHour.

There are multiple serpent demons and gods in Egyptian mythology. Smokey as Apep is a possibility.

Apep was an evil demon, the deification of darkness and chaos, and thus opponent of light and Ma'at (order/truth).

Ammit was the Egyptian idea of the punishment of the soul. Ammit was believed to eat any souls found to have sin. They would them be digested for eternity in acid or would place the soul into the liquid fire for all eternity.

Although Ammit is seen as a devouring entity, she is neutral and strictly serves at the whim of the other deities to take souls that have sinned against the gods and consign them into oblivion.

#88. Posted by: welh at April 9, 2009 11:39 AM

Ben , , , , Apologize for trying/ wanting to kill Penny.

#89. Posted by: crazy at April 9, 2009 11:40 AM

A fun moment at the Bean household last night:

When Ben and Locke were running around underneath the Temple, I asked "Where's Sun?" Mr. Bean answers, "Sitting on a bench reading People magazine. She's such a girl."

Agree with the other posters thinking that Ben is ultimately going to be the good guy at the end. If we're to believe Smokey, getting Alex killed is really his only sin on the island. Everything else has been (seemingly) according to the island's wishes.

Also like the theory that Widmore is in the box, but I don't see how that can be unless Widmore was in L.A. when Ben called him about killing Penny. I will have to rewatch to see what can be seen in the background on Charles' end of the phone call.

#90. Posted by: Tinkerbean at April 9, 2009 11:47 AM

Does anyone have sinking feeling that the temple will be a pyramid? I am making "logical" assumptions that the statue is Anubis. I find this kind of lame because wouldn't someone have seen a friggin pyramid?

I'm sorry Mac I think for once Ben doesn't know everything that's going on for once. I think he's going to be more reactive now. Which is almost as scary as know-it-all Ben. Dug the ep alot.

A friend told me what he would like to see next week would be the Dharma gang get a pirate copy of Star Wars and the 04 ruin the ending. Sorry, nerd humor.

#91. Posted by: shake_alive at April 9, 2009 11:54 AM

It does seem the Locke has been confirmed as the all seeing, all knowing leader/force of the island.

He knows what Ben is going to say before Ben says it.

All of Locke's grins within his dialogues with Ben shouts that he is cutting through the (Ben) lies like a knife through butter.

Locke seemed totally unconcerned with any threat from Ceasar.

He knew Sun was in Ben's house.

He Knows "exactly" where Smokey is and has absolutely no fear about it.

He knew Smokey would be judging Ben "only" about Alex.

...upon rewatch, I'm sure they are more examples.

....not a big revelation here, but confirmation and perhaps additional support to the theory the Locke is Smokey or certainly an attached "super entity" to/with the island. More so than we even thought in the past.

#92. Posted by: IslandHopper at April 9, 2009 12:00 PM

@73 crispy seaplanes: i liked your question of is the island good or bad. great question!! if jacob is the island and the island is jacob, my guess would be it depends on if jacob is good or bad or, possibly if the island/jacob were defending itself than how do you judge good or bad it one acts in self defense or self preservation?

i too think the events at the marina arent over, there is definitely more that happened, my guess is penny and des thought ben was gone or drowned and let their guard down and he waited for them to go to sleep, boarded their boat and ambushed them which resulted in his arm getting hurt but still managed to kill penny.

#93. Posted by: tiffani at April 9, 2009 12:04 PM

@ 91. Posted by: shake_alive

"Does anyone have sinking feeling that the temple will be a pyramid? I am making "logical" assumptions that the statue is Anubis. I find this kind of lame because wouldn't someone have seen a friggin pyramid?"

Not necessarily. Mayan and Aztec pyramids and cities were hidden for centuries by jungle overgrowth. Also, new pharoahs often destroyed the burial temples of previous rulers so they could claim the kingdom in their afterlife.

#94. Posted by: welh at April 9, 2009 12:12 PM

Wouldn't it make sense if there was an electro-magnetic beacon in the coffin? If the people are with widmore, wouldn't that be the easiest way for him to find the island, just like how Penny found Desmond with the explosion from the Hatch?

#95. Posted by: Visible Jacob at April 9, 2009 12:27 PM

For the first time in 4 weeks I did not care where or when Rose and Bernard are.

Now back to my juice box.

#96. Posted by: AbeFroman at April 9, 2009 12:28 PM

We need to think more into the title Dead is Dead. Did Locke really come back to life? Before last night's episode I thought that perhaps 816 landed in a past time zone and the passengers are encountering a Locke from the past (present Locke would still be dead on the coffin plane). Past Locke was already told by Alpert that he would have to die. Alpert could have given him more detail such as Ben will murder you. And so after 816 crash, Locke could be pretending he came back to life by supplying the fact that Ben killed him.

However, after last night's episode, it seems Locke has too many details surrounding his death/murder by Ben, which only he and Ben would have known. So my theory doesn't hold water unless Ben told someone the details of the murder, which somehow got back to Locke who is now in the past. My head is spinning!

Still, we need to think about Dead is Dead. The theory that Smokey is Locke makes sense. And what about Christian? He too was dead prior to 815 crash. And is Claire dead too? Perhaps they have all been reincarnated, and smokey somehow ties into reincarnation.

#97. Posted by: BEMH at April 9, 2009 12:32 PM

I also thought that Ben was going to introduce himself as "Henry Gale". Was kind of disappointed when he did not.

#98. Posted by: Olliemmy at April 9, 2009 12:38 PM

GRAA Mac!

I think Penny is still alive. This is what I thought when I was watching: Ben knows he is being judged for what happened with Alex. The Island wasn't judging him for anything else bad that he's done (and boy howdy, that is a list), so I assumed everything else he's done was okay by the Island, in an ends-justify-the-means way. Ben knew that taking his revenge on Penny was wrapped up in his Alex sin, because it was purely personal and not part of the Island agenda. He threw out the apology in a bid for a little mercy. I thought of a kid that is sorry for something they did right as they are being hauled up in front of dad, in hopes of a stern lecture (Alex!), instead of a spanking (Eko!).

#99. Posted by: Long Lost Love at April 9, 2009 12:47 PM

I'm just wondering if somehow the scene at the marina isnt done and Ben does kill Penny and Des goes after him.Who does he leave Chalrie with and is it possible that young Charlie is Charlie!!!! maybe thats why Des kept saving his life because he new it was his son.

#100. Posted by: Moog at April 9, 2009 12:51 PM

@77. Crispy Seaplanes

Ilana's magic zigler box"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When I finally learn to play that damn guitar, THAT is what Im gonna name my band...

#101. Posted by: Three Men and a Baby.. ( counted Hugo twice) at April 9, 2009 1:00 PM

→ 57. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 9, 2009 9:57 AM

That's funny....unless you are perpetuating the myth about which way water swirls when flushed.

Back to LOST: Heavy focus on Locke putting his shoes back on.

Where did Locke go when he disappeared into the jungle...only to return a few minutes later? Is the indoor plumbing not working? (this is not a flushing reference!)

Loved Ben’s nosebleed in the water. Who can't relate here?

Just have to say, the music on this show is awesome.

#102. Posted by: lovelost at April 9, 2009 1:08 PM

I'm also of the Penny-could-be-dead camp. Ben's gun falls in the water, then Ben gets dumped in the water. I expected the next scene to show Ben retrieving the gun, surfacing, and - after a tussle with Des - shooting Penny. Then I got so distracted by the other story lines that I forgot they never returned to the marina. ...Guess I also forgot that they never concluded the scene because, while Penny is nice and all, I don't get the swell of affection so many have for her. I've never found her to be a particularly interesting character - none of the charming foibles or subtle complexities that have hooked me to the fate of other characters.

Anyway - the episode has upped my fundamental island/Jacob confusions. All of these Egyptian mythology and final-judgement themes, they cast the island and its avatars in such an all-knowing and omnipotent light. Meaning what? Leaving aside the whole issue of TPTB original claims that the island isn't some sort of purgatory (and that, in a stretch, could be backed by science theories), how do we square this omniscient-diety stuff with what was previously known about Jacob/the island? Last night I flashed back to (whatever season), when Locke hears Jacob's supplicating "help me." An entreaty coming from a place of weakness, as if human interventions could derail the plans of Jacob/the island, and so remote from any god-like "serve me" entity that makes final judgements.

Heh, OTOH, it just struck me: Jacob's long-ago "help me" to Locke sounds like none other than pre-risen/omniscient Locke himself! Locke, who always packed so much pathos in his confused is-he-or-isn't-he-a-leader "help me" moments... I dunno, I think I liked both Locke and the island/Jacob better when they had frailties.

#103. Posted by: iheartsayid at April 9, 2009 1:10 PM

@52

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Purgatory_%28debunked_theory%29

So uhh...yeah they're not dead.

#104. Posted by: RJH at April 9, 2009 1:13 PM

Perhaps the drain in Ben's closet was like a plumber's water trap at the bottom of your sink...and smokey being vapor could not get through it unless the water was gone. Just a thought.

#105. Posted by: Steve at April 9, 2009 1:22 PM

A 102 lovelost posted "...perpetuating the myth about which way water swirls when flushed..."

A myth? You mean like the Easter Bunny(lover) or Orack Babama's Stimulus Plan?

While admittedly I've never seen it, I have it on good authority that there's something called the Coriolis force, which influences which direction water spirals down drains and toilets.

Water in a toilet rotates counter clockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere.

Any Aussies or world travelers out there can confirm or deny?

#106. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 9, 2009 1:28 PM

106 - Yes they do go in opposite directions, i think they showed this a few times in the older seasons when alot of scenes happened in Australia, either way, yes

71 - also sorry for stealing your thunder, you said the same thing i did a few posts later on the technogadget

So do we have any more theories on RA? I know everyone keeps thinking he's part of the smoke monster, but certainly if they are going the egyptian god route, would he not represent another God? I'm not familiar enough with that culture to know, but it would seem smokey is one entity, alpert is another one, thus explaining why he doesn't have to answer to the "other" who are the living minions of the island. jacob perhaps is another god, ra? (Sun god i believe)

Anyway, i'd like to say this was the best episode of the season, mainly because it revolved around Ben, who is character who adds the most value to the show, in my opinion. While Jack and Locke, are certainly intregal, I just couldn't imagine this show without Benry

#107. Posted by: Visible Jacob at April 9, 2009 1:51 PM

Has a cohesive theory been put together about the island's relationship with children? I'm struck by how Amy was able to have a child on the island, presumably one that was oonceived there, and how this contrasts so sharply with the later inability of women to bring island-conceived children to term (alive). What happened to make this change? And even if I'm totally wrong about there being a change (perhaps Dharma hadn't been on-island long enough to be aware of a problem bearing full-term children), if the island wants you alive, you stay alive, so it would follow that the island doesn't want children to be born there.

What's up with that? And what about the mysterious virus that Rousseau goes on and on about, that there were vaccines against, and so on? Are these all related? I wonder if there was some kind of "fall from grace."

#108. Posted by: Daemmerung at April 9, 2009 1:53 PM

@104. Posted by: RJH

And in Season 1, TPTB said there was no time travel.

#109. Posted by: welh at April 9, 2009 1:55 PM

I'm just wondering if somehow the scene at the marina isnt done and Ben does kill Penny and Des goes after him.Who does he leave Chalrie with and is it possible that young Charlie is Charlie!!!! maybe thats why Des kept saving his life because he new it was his son.

→ 100. Posted by: Moog at April 9, 2009 12:51 PM


OH YEAH!! That is exactly what I thought and my friends and I discussed when the baby was named Charlie!!! With all the back and forth in time, it is possible, at least LOST possible.

#110. Posted by: QueenofTUT at April 9, 2009 1:55 PM

Random thoughts in no particular order:

Interesting how Alex was wearing the same outfit she was in when she died. Locke is also sporting the suit he was to be buried in, and Christian is rockin' the suit and tennis shoes he was going to be buried in too.

Someone commented on the awesome music in the show, I thought the same thing.

Widmore riding in on that horse (Kate’s horse hehe) was pretty awesome, he looked hot-ish.

I'm loving Ben more and more each week!

#111. Posted by: Skipper at April 9, 2009 2:02 PM

Do you think the last eipsode will be everyone in a jail cell???

#112. Posted by: craig at April 9, 2009 2:15 PM

Wearing puffy shirts and eating babka? Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Who knows? Maybe they'll discover Earth...and Rose will die of cancer as she watches one last beautiful sunset...

Or they'll all wake up in bed with Suzanne Pleshette...who's not really dead...

#113. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 9, 2009 2:20 PM

GRAA Mac!!

Loved this episode! Any episode where there are exchanges between Michael Emmerson and Terry O'Quinn are superb.

NOW to the nitty gritty. I too think Ilana and the magical mystery silver box are working for Widmore. The box is full of weaponry etc... However, if Ilana and crew are Widmorians how come they didn't kill Ben when they saw him or at least take him prisoner????? Is Cesar a Widmorian too?

I thought Emmersons acting was excellent. I really felt for him when we saw his emotional changes while being "judged" by Smokey.

In regards to the Temple. So now we know that what we thought was Temple is just a wall--or Ben is lying about it. I was remembering the episode in season 2 when Locke comes upon the Other's camp and finds his father tied to that big Totem pole looking thing. Could this in fact be the grounds of the temple? Have we seen it since then????


Does anyone think that Ben knew where he was going when Locke told him to crawl in the hole??? Also, I truly expected Ben to say to Sun (when he asked her to do him a favor) "Could you go down the hole before me?" Ha Ha.

#114. Posted by: benlinusrocks at April 9, 2009 2:30 PM

Perhaps its the "incident" that starts the pregnancy complications on the island.

#115. Posted by: Confused at April 9, 2009 2:41 PM

→ 101. Posted by: Three Men and a Baby..

I'll be in the front row at the concert wearing my "Ilana's magic zigler box" t-shirt!

Will the first single be "Ben's Soft Spot for Kids"?

#116. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 9, 2009 2:45 PM

I think Ben's soft spot is not just for children, but also for mothers and I think it goes back to the fact that he lost his mother at birth. Though he didn't have any problem taking Alex from her mother, he still let her mother live so technically she wasn't motherless, she just didn't have a chance to know her mother (at least not much chance).

Ben seems to know a lot, but I won't be surprised that he didn't know that Penny had a son and when he saw that she did it made him think twice about killing her because he didn't want to take Charlie's mother away from him like his mother had been taken away from him.

Of course as others have said maybe we haven't seen the whole story yet.

#117. Posted by: Sue at April 9, 2009 2:50 PM

Sorry if its been mentioned already but what if the women not being able to have childeren on the island is Jacobs punishment for Ben allowing Alex to live and not killing her and Crazy Frenchie.
just a thought

#118. Posted by: monkphish at April 9, 2009 3:21 PM

So I guess Mr Eko should have said he was sorry huh?

#119. Posted by: JohnW at April 9, 2009 3:26 PM

@75 mtncbn

I tend to agree that the box wasn't on the plane.

It might contain some sort of really big gun or bazooka or missile thing for the war. They all know it's coming.

Re: Ben has a soft spot for kids. Yes, that shows but we just re-watched from season 1 up to 4 to get hubby caught up so he can watch with me (11 epis to go). When Ben gases his dad and then returns to the barracks there are kids dead on the ground too. But I think it did still bother him. After all, they were his people.

#120. Posted by: jms at April 9, 2009 3:39 PM

I see a couple posts already on the question I was going to ask: Why do we believe Locke is really alive? Do you believe Christian is really alive? If not, then why would Locke be? They did arrive in exactly the same fashion, dead in a coffin, and then suddenly up again. Granted, Christian has been more secretive until recently, but the interactions with live people seem to be the same. The interesting point is, whether they are alive or not seems to have no bearing on how their characters will be used within the story.

Lastly, a big shoutout to all of us who called that Desmond would kick Ben's @$$. Even with one arm, he beat the living snot out of him. Loved the scene of Ben going into the water as the blood spread from his nose. I think the marina scene "ends" there, Desmond may well have intended for Ben to die from being beaten and thrown in the water, and even if not, would you stick around to see what else bug-eyes would be up to? No, you would grab the groceries that weren't shot, get on your boat, and cast off. Of course, this doesn't mean we have seen the last of them...

#121. Posted by: The Duf at April 9, 2009 3:47 PM

You know no one answered when asked if Jughead was buried. A big metal (lead) box could hold a mini-sized nuke. Could Widmoreans be there to nuke the island so Ben can't have it?

#122. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 9, 2009 3:57 PM

@119 (re Mr. Eko): Amen!!!

I know Eko was written off because the actor wanted out but, thematically, I tell ya, that has always been a disturbingly unfinished thread for me.

Eko of all people (truly ethical and repentant - and even his earlier thuggishness a consequence of his selfless act as a child) not making Smokey's cut. The irony is even more glaring now that the smokey/moral-reckoning theme is re-emerging with clearer contours. ...Unless Smokey's judgements have nothing to do with how an individual has lived but rather with their (amoral) usefulness to the island or their luck of the karmic draw.

At any rate: Hey producers! Please please lure back [the actor who played Eko]! Surely you can convince him to fly to Hawaii for one or two episodes in the final season!! Not only was his own story-line artificially snuffed, but I'm sure you can put the character's return in the service of tying up other cosmic loose ends. And the charisma-oozing actor for sure would shore up your final-season ratings!

#123. Posted by: iheartsayid at April 9, 2009 4:04 PM

Lapidus may magically time travel back to the Left Behinders if he unbuttons one more shirt button.

#124. Posted by: Manly chest hair at April 9, 2009 4:11 PM

→ 116. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes
I'll be in the front row at the concert wearing my "Ilana's magic zigler box" t-shirt!

Will the first single be "Ben's Soft Spot for Kids"?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I havent named the set list yet, but I think that would be a top 40 hit! I think I'd follow up with some DriveShaft covers to make the crowd happy! YOU ALL EVERYBODY!!! and invite you up on stage for a rockin' duet!

#125. Posted by: Three Men and a Baby... ( I counted Hugo twice) at April 9, 2009 4:19 PM

A lot has been made of the Ben/Des/Penny scene.

I think it is what it is. I think Ben shot Des ("It's just a flesh wound..."), and would have killed Penny but he was distracted just long enough by Wee Chollie for Des to shake it off, man, just shake it off, get up and deliver a righteous ass-whupping on Ben.

I think Ben's shoulder got bunged up in the smackdown, and I think Ben survived because the island wasn't quite done with him yet.

Also, I think that maybe Des and Penny, after failing to find Ben's pale and bloated corpse (in his defense he was kinda pale and bloated before going in the water) floating in the lagoon, decided to sail to the island to put an end to it, thinking that Ben wouldn't quit until Pen is an ex-Pen, pining for the fjords.

#126. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 9, 2009 4:19 PM

***spoilers from next week's previews***

In the previews for next week they showed a scene with someone opening a body bag but didn't show who is in it, right? What if it is Locke's body? I'm thinking that maybe Locke's body foomed with the rest of the 316ers but his conscience/ghostish self went on to take care of the judgement of Ben business. Thoughts?

#127. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 9, 2009 4:23 PM

? 67. Posted by: AbeFroman
First Geek moment:
Did anyone notice the writing on the pillar described the exodus of Egypt?

Sorry, I am a bit rusty on my heiroglyphics, but...

the Exodus idea is just in time for Passover!

Are you suggesting that when the Jews left Egypt, they went to a tropical island in the South Pacific?

#128. Posted by: Gumbo at April 9, 2009 4:34 PM

If Locke is now Smokeyish, why doesn't he just manifest that to Ben? And why does Smokeyish Alex need Ben to follow Smokeyish Locke?? All the Smokeyish human manifestations, I think they are the real souls and minds of those people. Jacob can bring them back from the dead, at will. Smokey is a vehicle for them to travel. It also provides a physical appearance of them, allowing them to interact with the living.

Well, I don't know if I'm thinking that. But why not? All the Egyptianish stuff, cool as it is, doesn't prove that Jacob is Anubis, Alpert is RA, or whatever. It could merely reflect the way that the human minds of the natives perceived and interpreted the wonders of the Island, a long time ago. They needed explanations so they created them. Some of them left the Island eventually, to spread the word, laying the foundation for Egyptian culture as we know it.

Maybe the 'magic box' principle even allows for imagined truths to become reality. The Island being some divine tool, a God suit. To be used by those special 'people' who can put it on (for a while).

If Jacob/Smokey really were Anubis/Snakegod etc, we wouldn't be given such obvious clues about it at this stage. TPTB would save that for later, I think.

Some like it Hoth. I like it Dagobah. Much more Lost-like :)

#129. Posted by: Mischa at April 9, 2009 4:43 PM

@126/ransomjackson: Then Locke would say, "I'm not dead!" Then Ben would say, "Yes, you are" and then shoot him in the gut and push him out of a 10 story building with an extension cord around his neck.

#130. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at April 9, 2009 4:51 PM

@57 ransomjackson posed a not-stupid question

>End of stupid question. Now back to your regular programming.

The "northern hemisphere counterclockwise, southern hemisphere vice-versa" rule really holds only for large macro effects like cyclones. For smaller things, like bathtubs, toilet bowls, and Smokey Basins, initial conditions and vessel shape by far overwhelm the coriolus forces that create the rotation rule.

#131. Posted by: Cecil at April 9, 2009 5:04 PM

@121 The Duf,

Can you describe "alive" for me? If alive is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then "alive" is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.

Have you ever had a dream, The Duff, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?

#132. Posted by: schiano at April 9, 2009 5:13 PM

Locke is only "mostly dead" and just escaped the pit of despair!

#133. Posted by: Hoogie at April 9, 2009 5:21 PM

@ 106 ransomjackson said: "A myth? You mean like the Easter Bunny..."

Watch it buddy. You do realize that this coming Sunday is Easter, right? No marshmellow peeps for YOU! :(

As far as this episode - wow - absolutely great acting. Loved it and loved your review AA mac.

Hope the Easter Bunny is good to all of you!! (Except ransomjackson... No, no, I can't be ugly like that. Maybe one chocolate egg or something. Anything but a chocolate bunny cause you're totally not deserving.)

I'm off to watch the episode again! (singing "Here comes Peter Cotton Tail, Hoppin' down the bunny trail, hippity, hoppity, Easter's on it's way!!)

#134. Posted by: BunnyLover at April 9, 2009 5:28 PM

@108 Daemmerung (first name Gotte?) asked:

>Has a cohesive theory been put together about the island's relationship with children?

Well, I sort of have. It's not about children per se, but about the island's healing powers.

There's something in the envoronment that can superstimulate the human immune system, allowing rapid healing from, injuries and infections, immunity to infection-borne disease, etc. You have to be there a while to absorb whatever it is from the environment to get the full effect.

But the yan to this yin is that the mother's body sees the embryo as a foreign invader, and fights it off in over-protectiveness so violently that both mother anc child die.

However, in mothers who conceived off-island, the embryo/fetus developes sufficiently before the mother is exposed to this "protective agent' that the fetus can survive and go to term.

#135. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 9, 2009 5:30 PM

@109 welh posted:

>And in Season 1, TPTB said there was no time travel.

I'm still waiting for a citation. Pretty please?

#136. Posted by: Cecil at April 9, 2009 5:39 PM

Poor Rousseau, after all she had been through, and then to have k d lang steal her baby.

#137. Posted by: lostsox at April 9, 2009 5:45 PM

It's interesting that Widmore travels OFF an island to father a child with an 'outsider', similar to Christian Sheppard, who travels TO an island (Australia) to father a child with another woman.... Not sure what this means, just an interesting parallel!

#138. Posted by: b mar at April 9, 2009 5:51 PM

@126 ransomjackson opined:

>A lot has been made of the Ben/Des/Penny scene.

?I think it is what it is. I think Ben shot Des ("It's just a flesh wound..."), and would have killed Penny but he was distracted just long enough by Wee Chollie for Des to shake it off, man, just shake it off, get up and deliver a righteous ass-whupping on Ben.

But you'll notice that Ben dropped his aim on Penny *before* Desmond tackled him. While I agree with you that this scene is finished, I think Wee Chollie changed Ben's homicidal intent even before the tackling.

#139. Posted by: Cecil at April 9, 2009 5:55 PM

"what lies in the shadow of the statue?"

The losties saw the statue from the well so, depending on their timezone, either the Orchid or the well are in the shadow of the statue; either way leading to the wheel to move the island. These people seem to mean business all of a sudden.

Also, can anyone tell me what happened to Cindy? Last I remember she was weirdly surprised and offended that Jack didn't really enjoy being locked in a cage in season 3.

#140. Posted by: r Wizzle at April 9, 2009 6:11 PM

I am beginning to wonder if the "war" is not between Ben and Widmore at all but rather between Widmore and Ellie over leadership of the island and Ben is merely the tool or vehicle they use to wage war on each other. What exactly is her role in all this? She was on the island. She is a gun toter, Farraday's "mother", the guardian of the Lamppost Station, a part-time used jewelry saleslady, and buddies with the head of a monastic order.

Regarding Ben/Des/Penny at the marina...I think that IS the end of it between Ben and Penny. Ben obviously did not know about lil wee Charlie. He was so stunned by it that his eyes bugged out... well, a little more than usual. He let his gun arm drop. That was when Des hit him, pounding him with his left (yes, his left...he was shot in the milk on the right side). If there is more to this, it will be between Des and Eloise Hawking.

#141. Posted by: Gumbo at April 9, 2009 6:20 PM

@136

Direct quote from scifi.com story just before first season ended, reprinted below:

Damon Lindelof, co-creator of ABC's hit series Lost, told SCI FI Wire that he and fellow executive producers J.J. Abrams and Bryan Burk have carefully worked out the answers to the castaway island's mysteries, including the nature of the unseen jungle monster, some of which may be revealed by the end of the first season. "Every mystery that we present on the show?What is the monster? Where does Ethan come from? Why hasn't Claire had her baby yet??all those are questions that we know the answers to," Lindelof told reporters at the network's winter press tour in Universal City, Calif. "But how and when we present those answers is not written in stone. ... Hopefully we ... won't betray the audience. ... All I can say is, we're trying, we're doing our best, and we think the answers that we have are pretty cool."

Lindelof said that a DVD set of the first season will come out this summer, before a second season begins in the fall. As the show progresses, he added, it won't venture too far into science fiction as its mysteries unfold. "We're still trying to be ... firmly ensconced in the world of science fact," he said in an interview. "I don't think we've shown anything on the show yet ... that has no rational explanation in the real world that we all function within. We certainly hint at psychic phenomena, happenstance and ... things being in a place where they probably shouldn't be. But nothing is flat-out impossible. There are no spaceships. There isn't any time travel."

#142. Posted by: welh at April 9, 2009 6:41 PM

Ah! I probably won't be able to read until Sunday... gaah.

GREAT EPISODE.

BEN <333333333333333

#143. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at April 9, 2009 6:52 PM

@29 "I feel the Kara reference is reasonable." - Mac

Frankly, the overlap between audiences of these shows means that BSG references are inevitable -- I've been lucky to dance around them out so far, but the law of averages was going to catch up eventually.

So no worries -- unfortunate incident, but I agree that you were in the clear... besides, you can't be on "spoiler alert!" mode in perpetuity.

#144. Posted by: Ajay at April 9, 2009 7:14 PM

the producers said there's gonna be "no time travel" at the end of the first season ???! O-K that made me raise an eyebrow.

ow yea, the statue did look like it had jackal ears... hmm.

and btw, i think the producers also ruled out the whole "everyone is actually dead and in purgatory" thingy. then again they also said "no time travel". so my question is...

erm... Huh?

but in any case, i think dead people, even in purgatory, don't get to experience time travel. Although, even the time-travel thing can be a clue or means for them to figure out how to redeem their souls (if you take it that way). but for some reason I don't put my money on the theory. There has GOT to be something we're missing about ol' smokes. hope we all get a huge jaw-drop when we finally find out.

and ye ben did have emo hair. blegh.

#145. Posted by: glide at April 9, 2009 7:22 PM

114 -- Ilana and the magical mystery silver box are working for Widmore. The box is full of weaponry etc...

I totally agree. As for the shadow question, Widmore informed Ilana and group that it has special powers (meaning) and just want to know if Lapidus knew about it which would mean he (Lapidus) had special 'insight' into the island.

#146. Posted by: opserc at April 9, 2009 7:32 PM

Maybe the off-island person that Widmore had a child with is Ellie/Eloise. We haven't seen her on island in the past except during the '54 era. We don't know when she left. It is as plausible as anything else, right?

#147. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 9, 2009 8:19 PM

in the last scene, what did ben say to alex after she told him to swear he would obey john locke? i could barely make out what he was saying. please help!

#148. Posted by: maui328 at April 9, 2009 8:40 PM

LOVE this post, always enjoy reading it! I normally don't post but just one comment about Widmore. My guess is that he earned his money by "knowing" the future. Because of the time jumps he was able "predict" the stock markets rise and fall. Maybe this was partly why he was banished from the island. That and the fact that him and Ben never got along and that he was leaving the island for his own personal use, i.e. producing Penney with a "non-Other". Just a guess, I'm not very good at this stuff, much better at reading your stuff Mac! Thanks for doing this for us! (BTW, didn't have time to scan other posts to see if another had already stated this. Sorry! Didn't have that kind of time!)

#149. Posted by: lostie1973 at April 9, 2009 8:47 PM

→ 88. Posted by: welh

"From the beginning, our perception was that the 815ers "survived" the plane crash and were still "alive" in the present world. If they were dead, their souls would be sent to a Fore-Hell, which is similar to Earth and what they knew from their past, as a precursor to their souls journey in the underworld and possible salvation-rebirth. There are two ways to look at the "off-island" existence: 1) that it is truly earth and their spirits can walk among the living (ex., angels-spirits coming from heaven to visit, guide mortal human beings) or 2) it is a merely manifestation of earth in cosmic plane of the afterlife."

This has been my theory since the beginning. I'm really glad to see that someone else agrees with me!

#150. Posted by: LostLove at April 9, 2009 8:47 PM

*The "incident" = whatever happens to break the statue (which leads to pregnancy complications??)

*Very happy to see Miles and Marvin Candle in the preview for next week. I've thought for a while Miles was the baby in the crib...maybe we'll find out soon.

*I think Locke really is alive. 'Alex' said to Ben "I know your already planning on killing John again"

That would make no sense if he weren't really alive.

#151. Posted by: Towley at April 9, 2009 8:52 PM

Glostover/74:
"What lies in the shadow of the statue?"
Ben, of course. He lies everywhere. About everything.

LOL.
Like when he said, "Dead is dead."

#152. Posted by: Clementine at April 9, 2009 9:26 PM

lostsox/137: "Poor Rousseau, after all she had been through, and then to have k d lang steal her baby."

I knew that hairdo looked familiar! LOL again!

#153. Posted by: Clementine at April 9, 2009 9:30 PM

Not that it spoils the story for me....

But how exactly does Ben's secret back-room which leads to the even more secret-back-room-summoning-smokey-room staircase exist *above* ground? The way it is depicted, his Dharma house would have to be built into a hillside or partially underground. Otherwise, you would be able to walk around behind his Dharma house and see the outside of the secret-staircase.

Unless it is a time-warp sort of door.

Then it all makes perfect sense.

#154. Posted by: I'm Not Ben at April 9, 2009 9:35 PM

maybe the ajirans found a message on the big crate ''what lies in the shadow of the statue?'', and the correct answer will help open the crate. and so only a certain person(s) will know what it means

#155. Posted by: JJ at April 9, 2009 9:39 PM

lostsox #147 said "Poor Rousseau, after all she had been through, and then to have k d lang steal her baby."

LOL totally got that!

#156. Posted by: Glostover at April 9, 2009 9:41 PM

I thought this episode showed Ben in a good light and it showed Charles Widmore as the evildoer who wanted to kill Danielle and Alex immediately. I still don't trust Ben though.

#157. Posted by: Blue at April 9, 2009 9:45 PM

I dunno if it's been written, but what if "What lies in the shadow of the statue" is like a "Whats the password" type thing.

And then lapidus says "New England, Clam, Chowder"

#158. Posted by: jamesYO! at April 9, 2009 9:58 PM

WHH and dead is dead (DID) or maybe not.

Obi-Locke sure doesn't look or act dead, but he sort of acts like Christian at this point IMO.

They were both dead and DID. They were both in a box on a plane (not in the rain or on a train) and now they both wander around the island in a suit acting like they know everything there is to know.

So, what is the significance of being dead when you arrive on the island?

#159. Posted by: add it up at April 9, 2009 11:03 PM

“Poor Rousseau - After all she had been through, and then to have k d lang steal her baby...” #137 - lostsox


Now I’m not saying it WOULD be, but if there was going to be a 2009 version of the Season Three “Favorite Mac Funny Bloggerism Award” - This would have to be this season’s LEADING CONTENDER!

BTW: Where the heck is “Laffo”?

(New folks - don’t even ask.)

#160. Posted by: davidrh at April 9, 2009 11:10 PM

→ 51. mtncbn: "Maybe Lostpedia isn't canon after all. I, like Locke, only want an apology."

I was watching last night's show from a hotel room, and as soon as I saw the scene where Locke and Ben walk past the PC into the barracks, I knew a big mea culpa was due as soon as I got home- so, you were right, and I was absolutely wrong.

I wouldn't be too hard on the obsessive folks at Lostpedia- after last night's epi, it looks like the multiple docks idea was caused by production and set errors- enough elements of the barracks dock were altered and inconsistent over the seasons to suggest two docks where there was only one.

After almost five years of obsessing over Lost, I think we've seen that while the storytelling is normally consistent and cohesive, there is always a certain number of production and continuity errors, magnified b/c everyone analyzes each scene in detail.

The irony of the Great Processing Center Debate of 2009 is that it didn't matter anyway. The future wan't changed by our 1977 group, the Risk game still sits where Sawyer and Hurley left it, and the Frank-Sun-Christian scene apparently served not as a major plot shift, but to move the story along by letting Sun know where the missing Losties are.

#161. Posted by: Mizzed at April 10, 2009 12:55 AM

Does anyone remember that the character of Ben was only supposed to last a couple of eps in the beginning? And that his resulting popularity encouraged TPTB to include him in more eps?

And MORE eps...

...and now Ben seems to be suddenly central to the whole shebang. Hmm.

Also, remember on the dock when Ben says to the newly captured Jack Kate Sawyer etc that "we're the good guys!" just before he pulls the hoods over their heads? He seemed so bitterly ironic, and now it all seems to be making sense, in a Lost sorta way.

Finally, with Passover beginning on this Lost ep night, did anyone flash to the thought that maybe the container held the myth-famous lost ark of the covenant?

Or that maybe the island itself has something like that for its relocation device or secret "weapon"??

Just a thought from a brain exploding...
Namaste

#162. Posted by: stontilam at April 10, 2009 1:11 AM

@148 welh

Thank you.

Nmmmm.


Somebody needs to get a question into their podcast about this.

#163. Posted by: Cecil at April 10, 2009 1:13 AM

Long time reader, first time poster! How exciting!

First off, I love all the above posts. Very smart. Love the whole Egyptian mythology schpeal.

This episode, I'm not sure why, blew me away. I absolutely loved everything about. My jaw literally dropped numerous times.

One thing I realized in this episode was that the "monster" isn't completely based on attacking and living like a beast. In fact, it is very intelligent and knew exactly how to attack Ben without ever touching him. The "monster" is now proving to have a mind.

Also, there is no way Caesar is dead. Just putting it out there. Dead is not dead for him.

Last thing! I have a question... Where on Earth is Daniel Faraday?!?! I have a feeling something very big happened to him. Because we saw him in the first episode underground and then scarcely in the first few episodes. I'm guessing he will pop up in the final episode of this season with some twist. Possibly involving Charlotte...?

Oh! One more last, last thing. Where is Ben's young lover, Annie? I've wanted more on her since the day she was introduced long, long ago. I want/need her story pronto. I love all the Ben back story. I want like 8 episodes of pure Ben flash backs.

#164. Posted by: OCDLOST at April 10, 2009 1:14 AM

@132 Schiano:

I can't describe "alive" to you any more than any other philosophy major in town. Certainly, usage of the senses is one means to attempt to quantify life as we know it, and indeed, reality is simply a series of neurons firing in our brains that let's us analyze all the input. These atoms seem to stay in one place, so let's call them a chair. But I don't know that we can come up
with such an easy definition for life.

And if we did, it may not have any meaning to what 'alive' is on the island, of course. Nosebleed anyone?

To your other point, indeed, I have had very lucid dreams, and fairly often at that. It seems to be a benefit of a good imagination. And quite often, you are correct, telling the difference can be nearly impossible. My brain fools me good, and I can taste food, as one example, when I am dreaming. In fact, I sometimes try things, like picking up magazines from a rack, and amazingly (to me anyhow) there are words and pictures in them. Do they make sense, you might ask? Well, THEY DO in the dream, that's for sure!

And why not? Certainly, don't our brains have all the data stored to know what a magazine looks like, or a cup of coffee tastes like? Why then should it be so difficult when I am dreaming to see words on a page or "taste" a cup of joe?

Getting off the track a bit here, but to swing it around and relate this to Lost, it certainly seems possible that some of what is presented to us is not "real" in the sense of how we would normally think of reality in a day-to-day fashion. It once was suggested that the whole show is just in Hurley's head, for instance. But that was denied, just like there is no time travel... hmm...

I would say that I believe the show is taking place in the real world, but that the laws of physics, time, space, and parking do not apply on the island due to it's oft mentioned "unusual properties".

Personally, I'm still betting Atlantis, or better yet: "As time passed, they came to call this place... Atlantis. But only because they did not know it's true name."

#165. Posted by: The Duf at April 10, 2009 1:17 AM

@149 lostie1973 said:

>...just one comment about Widmore. My guess is that he earned his money by "knowing" the future. Because of the time jumps he was able "predict" the stock markets rise and fall.

Possibly, but we've yet to see any contact by him with travellers from the future except for the brief excursion into 1954 by four people in "Jughead" and there didn't seem to be any commercially useful information passed there.

#166. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 10, 2009 1:20 AM

→ 129. Mischa: "All the Egyptianish stuff, cool as it is, doesn't prove that Jacob is Anubis, Alpert is RA, or whatever. It could merely reflect the way that the human minds of the natives perceived and interpreted the wonders of the Island"

That's a very perceptive comment. If ancient Egyptians stumbled onto the island (perhaps through a porthole in the Sahara), how would they rationalize the healing powers of the island, or a smoke-like presence that could transform into human shapes of dead comrades?

They would see it as a divine place, give it a name, build temples and statues to worship it, and fit that magical place into their own preconceived mental picture frame of life and the afterlife.

→ 79. lost2theworld: "if everyone is dead and having their souls judged, etc., how are they going off island and interacting with the living?"

I agree. I know that welh has posted the inconsistency around Lindelof denying time travel in season 1. But the argument that they are all dead lost a lot of steam when the Oceanic 6 made it off the island on the helicopter.

The press conferences, the trials, the Hurley birthday magarita party, etc.- these people not only interacted with the living, but they ate, slept, had sex, went to work, went grocery shopping, etc., for three entire years. If they died in the original plane crash, the off-island years really make no sense and serve no purpose.

→ 151. Towley: "'Alex' said to Ben "I know your already planning on killing John again". That would make no sense if he weren't really alive."

Good point. Locke certainly believes he is alive- he has reaffirmed that twice this season. He is clearly interacting at a different level than Christian, who appears only for short moments, and always to deliver a message.

Smokey was heard right before Christian appeared to Sun- either they're connected, or Smokey is using Christian to communicate. This would be different than Christian himself being alive or reborn in some way.

We don't have any evidence on "dead is dead", so at this point it's all speculation. There are a lot of road signs though that point to Locke being resurrected or reincarnated in a way that we don't yet understand.

The Alex interaction last night is virtually identical to Eko-Yemi. Smokey can read people's thoughts and memories, and is aware enough to judge motives and intentions.

As a formless being it cannot speak directly to the living, and so it assumes the human shape of those killed on the island in order to communicate.

→ 123. iheartsayid: "Eko of all people (truly ethical and repentant - and even his earlier thuggishness a consequence of his selfless act as a child) not making Smokey's cut."

But Eko lived by a unique self code, one that allowed for moral gray areas where the ends justify the means. While he called himself a priest, he rejected basic Catholic doctrines of confession, absolution and forgiveness.

Yemi/Smokey gave him multiple opportunities to ask for forgiveness, but to the end he stuck to his "I did the best I could" philosophy. They had to honor the actor's wish to leave the show, but I think TPTB used his demise to illustrate the larger theme of redemption in the show.

#167. Posted by: Mizzed at April 10, 2009 1:25 AM

→ 161. Posted by: Mizzed
There are only so many dock's and barrack's (ymca camp I think) to film at. Some times we have to guess the writers intent, rather than over analyze every detail, this is a TV show, not a documentary. I miss the detail from the early seasons, frame by frame looking at Eko's smokey meeting, the blast door map, ad infintum. Apology appreciated, but unneeded - we are here to pick it apart and be critiqued.

#168. Posted by: mtncbn at April 10, 2009 1:32 AM

to Welh at many posts on this epi and many posts on previous epis

They are not dead (including Locke), referencing TPTB's comments in season 1 regarding time travel hold no water in your argument for the simple reason that there was no time travel in season 1.

Some thoughts on Locke...

The Locke we are seeing now is clearly living and breathing, completely different from Christian Shepard who as many have speculated and in my opinion is simply a physical manifestation of take your pick: Smokey, The Island, Jacob, or some as yet unidentified power.

In season 1 Locke had an encounter with Smokey that we do not know the full extent of. Perhaps some Island hijinks were involved during that encounter that allowed Locke to be brought back to life upon returning.

Maybe there are a large number of Smokey created frozen Lockes somewhere under the temple just waiting for the most recent model to be snuffed out by Ben so the next one can be reanimated.

OK that last bit was just stupid but I have had more than a few glasses of wine this evening.

#169. Posted by: Debunker at April 10, 2009 1:59 AM

I thought this epi filled in a tremendous amount of plot questions. It's now possible to suggest a plausible Widmore/Ben theory (and yes, long post ahead):

What if Widmore was a corrupt leader, one consumed by personal gain and power? Following on ideas from Cecil and others, Widmore may have gone off-island in the 60's to contact Alvar Hanso, who had been searching for the mysterious island located in the 19th century by his ancestor, Magnus Hanso.

In exchange for wealth and power, Widmore provided Hanso with not only the location of the island, but allowed Hanso's Dharma Initiative to build their structures in relative peace- with several of those facilities built right on top of the most important areas of the island.

Initially, Widmore may have kept his tribe in the dark about this arrangement, staging occasional prearranged "raids" as a diversion. This explains why Dharma was allowed to survive, while other off-islanders (such as the US Army), were swiftly attacked and killed.

In exchange, Dharma provided Widmore with the means to leave the island at will via the sub, allowing him to lead a double life as both the chief of the Others and as a wealthy businessman in the U.K.

This also helps explain the inconsistency around Mittelos Bioscience approaching Locke in the early 70's- Widmore knew of Locke from his '54 encounter, and may have been tracking him then, using the Dharma staging post in Portland as a front.

The date of Locke being approached in high school is very close to the same time when Widmore's primary threat, Ben, arrived on island.

RA, knowing Widmore's betrayal of the island, identified Ben as having been delivered to the island as its next leader, and began to cultivate a relationship with Ben, starting with their meeting in the woods.

This is also why RA took Ben to the temple to be anointed as an Other without Charles permission- that act was the beginning of the coup.

While Ben returned back to live with Dharma, he spent considerable time with the Others as well. His growing influence allowed him to select other members of the Dharma initiative, such as Ethan, to bring to the Others circle.

Charles would have ordered Rousseau to be killed as an unwelcome outsider, but Ben was instructed by Jacob to defy Charles orders because Rousseau and Alex needed to survive for future events to play out. This event may mark a turning point where Jacob communicated to Ben, and no longer to Charles.

This also helps explain the earlier inconsistencies of why the Others left Rousseau alone, and why no one stopped her when she tampered with the radio tower.

When Ben came of age, he deposed Charles for his betrayal. Without Widmore's protection, the Others quickly moved to purge the island of the remaining Dharma members in 1992.

While Widmore was now off-island, he already knew a lot about future events- he knew Locke and his claim to be chosen by Jacob, from his 1954 entrance into the camp, and he may have received detailed info from Faraday, if he traveled off-island in the 70's.

In addition, Widmore began officially funding Faraday's work in 1994, and so Faraday likely related a visit he received from the time traveling Desmond in 1996.

While Widmore may not have been certain he could return to the island, he made it his mission to depose Ben. He manipulated events to get Desmond on the island, using Hawking and Libby to ensure he reached his destination.

He also manipulated Penny into spending considerable resources into locating Desmond, mistakenly believing she was in defiance of her father. This paid off when Desmond's actions at the Swan and Looking Glass allowed Widmore's team to locate the island.

Aware that Locke would replace Ben as Others chief, he also used Abaddon to plant the seed of the walk-about that indirectly got him on the Oceanic flight.

With the island located, he sent the freighter, not to kill everybody on the island, but to depose Ben as he himself had been deposed. The scientific team he had Abaddon hand-select may have been there to identify the feasibility of Widmore himself returning to the island once Ben was captured.

What Widmore may not have forseen was Ben's attempt to break the cycle of events and utilize free will- of allowing Alex to die so that he could escape Keamy, followed by Ben's turning the FDW to exit the island and take the fight directly to Widmore. After these events, Widmore seems less confident and on the defensive, going to bed with a bottle of liquor and pleading with Des to keep his daughter hidden.

#170. Posted by: Mizzed at April 10, 2009 2:18 AM

@142. Posted by: welh
re: TPTB and time travel

When you 'carefuly' read what the TPTB stated after S1, my impression is that they are commenting on S1 itself, and not the entire series. The various "..."'s don't help - it indicates that the reply was edited.

"We're still trying to be ... firmly ensconced in the world of science fact," he said in an interview.

-- This is very true of Season 1.

"I don't think we've shown anything on the show yet ... that has no rational explanation in the real world that we all function within."

-- The key word here is "yet". Once again - very true re: S1.


"We certainly hint at psychic phenomena, happenstance and ... things being in a place where they probably shouldn't be. But nothing is flat-out impossible. There are no spaceships. There isn't any time travel."


--Once again, very true, as he is describing S1. In S1, there was no visible spaceships, nor was there any time travel that we the audience witnessed.

I think the mistake made was that we assumed this meant there will NOT be any time travel in the show, which is not what TPTB actually stated. They did not actually say "This show will NEVER EVER involve time travel."

They have stated, several times, that the show is not about purgatory.

In one of the recap episodes, Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse added that the Losties are not dead and "do exist somewhere in the space time continuum".

Sorry welh - So far, your "TPTB lied about time travel, so they must be lying about the purgatory/dead thing" is pretty weak logic, unless you can provide something much more concrete than what you cited.

#171. Posted by: shikotee at April 10, 2009 2:50 AM

For those interested, there is a good recent article in "Rolling Stone" titled "Unraveling the Mysteries of "Lost" -
Producers Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof reveal the show's biggest secret"

http://tinyurl.com/co7qkw

It covers many things. Of course, maybe they're just lying.....

#172. Posted by: shikotee at April 10, 2009 3:09 AM

@171. Posted by: shikotee

If I recall correctly, in S1 the TPTB stated that they had mapped out the entire show just in case ABC did not pick up the show for a second season. If you take them at their word then, the show is not about time travel or purgatory.

But as several posters throughout the seasons have lamented, certain plot twists, inconsistencies, etc. looked like the writers-producers were making up the story line on the fly without any continuity or end game.

If one disregards everything said outside the confines of the show itself, then the premise of the show can be anything.

#173. Posted by: welh at April 10, 2009 9:18 AM

@170 mizzed

if widmore didnt want everyone on the island killed except for ben, than how do you explain keamy and his team dam near killing everyone on the island. although they didnt succeed they put up one hell of a fight trying to do so.

loved the kd lang reference regarding ben's hairdo. hilarious!!!! :)

#174. Posted by: tiffani at April 10, 2009 9:28 AM

→ 129. Posted by: Misch
Some like it Hoth. I like it Dagobah. Much more Lost-like :)

This might be a good way to think. TPTB never give us real info just directions to think in. Interesting. Suppose all the Egyptian refs also mean something else?

44444444444444444444444444444
114 -- Ilana and the magical mystery silver box are working for Widmore. The box is full of weaponry etc..

I like this too. Modern day Pirates back to the island to.....whatever.

8888888888888888888888888888

→ 152. Posted by: Clementine
"What lies in the shadow of the statue?"
Ben, of course. He lies everywhere. About everything.

Good One! LOL

#175. Posted by: berkyo at April 10, 2009 9:56 AM

→ 51. mtncbn: "Maybe Lostpedia isn't canon after all. I, like Locke, only want an apology.

I need apologize too. I referred you to the Barracks page at Lostpedia. I thought it showed a pretty good map of the area. From the Cable maps on the DVD box.

I could see from there that there was a building at the docks that was probably the processing center and several buildings near the living area that were probably near the Rec building.

I was wrong about the processing center being the same building that the others used for a rec room.

I still think Lostpedia is pretty accurate about most things. Unlike me.
44444444444444444444444444444444

→ 155. Posted by: JJ
maybe the ajirans found a message on the big crate ''what lies in the shadow of the statue?'', and the correct answer will help open the crate. and so only a certain person(s) will know what it means

Pretty cool idea!

#176. Posted by: berkyo at April 10, 2009 10:18 AM

I thought that Ben looked very surprised and curious and even frightened when he fell though the floor of the passage under the Temple walls. He was looking at things as if he had never seen them before.

When He pulled he plug at his house, He said something like "I'll be seeing you". Who was he talking to ? Jacob? The Monster? I think He even looked scared there.

#177. Posted by: berkyo at April 10, 2009 10:47 AM

@ 170. Posted by: Mizzed said,
"When Ben came of age, he deposed Charles for his betrayal. Without Widmore's protection, the Others quickly moved to purge the island of the remaining Dharma members in 1992."

I think from Wednesday's episode we can be pretty sure that Charles wasn't deposed until after the purge since Ben was pushing Alex on a Dharma swing when Richard came to tell him Charles was leaving.

Maybe Charles reaction to the purge helped seal his fate. Though I read somewhere someone thought Alex looked about 7 in the scene, I was thinking she was younger than that, though I could be wrong, and that it might not have taken place that long after the purge.


#178. Posted by: Sue at April 10, 2009 11:16 AM

One thing that bugs me, other than getting the stink-eye from bunnylover cuz I may have hinted at the existence or lack thereof of the Easter Bunny (BTW - I own a Dutchie who's name is Butch and he's very excited about Easter.) about the episode DID is I was kinda hoping to find out what Ben was hiding in that case that he removed from the exhaust vent in that motel (a la No Country For Old Men).

Maybe it was just his underoos?

#179. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 10, 2009 11:20 AM

Did anyone ever think that there are two different smokeys?

#180. Posted by: DoIHearAnEko? at April 10, 2009 11:55 AM

Ilana is ex Mosad, therefore she can't be bad...

#181. Posted by: maimon at April 10, 2009 12:35 PM


I've gotten through most of the posts, but not all. Darn that work, family and basic life thing has put a damper on my Lost fixes/habits... :o) (Sorry if this has been mentioned.)

I have a thought about the Locke is really dead...Locke is really alive... I keep going back and forth and right now, I am thinking that Locke is really dead, but "alive" by island standards. His dress shirt, suit jacket look as if they are new...still... I don't think he has done much to really get dirty, but he's on an island...without any amenities...does he sleep standing up...? As mentioned before, all the supposed dead folks walking around...Locke, Christian, Claire, and now Alex...they are all wearing the close that they died in or were going to be buried in... (Okay, bear with me for a minute...) All these folks had not been buried yet. All of the other "dead" folks on the island (pre, current and future 815'ers) had been buried. Am I wrong...has there been anyone else that had been buried and is walking around...? (Hurley's folks don't really count because I think some of that is in his mind.)

Also, Illana and Co are probably associated with someone, Widmore or others. Assume they found the guns somewhere in Ben's office. Just seems odd to me that even if you find guns, why the militant behavior? After all, you've survived a plane crash. I would think you would organize and find water, food, etc. They do seem to be waging some kind of war...hmmm...

#182. Posted by: boodle at April 10, 2009 12:41 PM

Speaking of when Ben is pushing Alex on the swing (-178 Sue), RA appears and says something like: if she goes any higher, she'll fly out of here. The snow-globe effect and other shields have been suggested before. And there was Faraday's "the light behaves differently here" comment. Could RA be alluding to such a thing? If you pierce from within whatever is protecting the Island, are you gone...forever? Hence, the Dharma Subway (not the sandwich, the submarine). Similarly, you can check "in", but you can never leave. Maybe I'm just nit-picking everything RA says, but he doesn't say much, so I think there's something to it. Or not.

#183. Posted by: lovelost at April 10, 2009 12:51 PM

Someone please clarify: Of the folks that have died and been 'reborn' - which ones have been seen in the presence of Smokey? It seems to me that it is very convenient that as soon as Locke leaves the scene in the temple Smokey appears, that as soon as Smokey disappears from the temple Alex appears. Is it possible that Smokey has 'read' the deceased and then appeared as their image? When Smokey kills a person, they are dead. Period. If Smokey has 'read' someone who later dies (and not killed by Smokey), Smokey can manifest itself as the deceased. And Smokey can even 'read' dead people and make them appear again as if alive: Christian, Claire, Yemi. Does this make any sense? What is the purpose of this 'rebirth'? Could it be that Smokey is attempting to continue the missions of folks who have died prematurely, before their goals have been met? Therefore Locke is dead, but not dead.....Help...now ears are bleeding.....

#184. Posted by: Len at April 10, 2009 1:25 PM

..Locke, Christian, Claire, and now Alex... All these folks had not been buried yet
→ 182. Posted by: boodle

Good point. Maybe that's why everyone is so insistent on burying the dead - if you don't, they will come back or resurrect or reincarnate or spend the rest of eternity whispering or whatever.

But do we know that Alex wasn't buried? And certainly there were others who died on the Island but were not buried. Yemi comes to mind. So maybe DID means BID (buried is dead).

I think Miles is going to shed some light on that whole conundrum.

#185. Posted by: lovelost at April 10, 2009 1:59 PM

182. Posted by: boodle at April 10, 2009 12:41 PM

As mentioned before, all the supposed dead folks walking around...Locke, Christian, Claire, and now Alex...they are all wearing the close that they died in or were going to be buried in

I would tend to agree with you, but we have seen Christian in clothing other than the suit he was in when Jack first saw him. When saw him in the cabin with Claire in a shirt and with Sun and Frank in I think the same shirt.

#186. Posted by: BTLY at April 10, 2009 2:25 PM

@167 (the always interesting) mizzed:

"Yemi/Smokey gave him multiple opportunities to ask for forgiveness, but to the end he stuck to his "I did the best I could" philosophy. They had to honor the actor's wish to leave the show, but I think TPTB used his demise to illustrate the larger theme of redemption in the show."

You’re probably right that the writers used Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje’s exit (whew - no wonder I couldn’t remember that name) to illustrate how Smokey/the Island’s judgment works.

But if Eko’s fate was meant to signal something about redemption in any convincing sense, then they held up the most befuddling or problematic example. It calls to mind that ironic 19th century observation on society's penal codes, “The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”

If the island is some stickler for the letter of the (moral) law, to the exclusion of circumstances, then what is the point of redemption? All of the characters have committed sinful acts and no interior attitude adjustment changes that fact. If you killed someone you killed someone. OTOH if circumstances, motivations, and what is in one’s heart does make a difference, then Eko at the time of his demise was a model of selfless virtue and real repentence. He was already rehabilitated. So I dunno. I still think the writers are making their Egypto-island gods carry out some pretty fuzzy cosmology.

And I still think they should try to re-sign Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje for a few episodes next season!

#187. Posted by: iheartsayid at April 10, 2009 3:27 PM

I do not think the mercenaries were there to get Ben, rather their job was to kill the lovely Alex. The trigger (and ace in the hole) was pulled pretty quickly. She was the symbol of Ben's power over Widmore. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

#188. Posted by: Rich in Baltimore at April 10, 2009 3:33 PM

@ randomjackson -

Please accept my whole hearted apology for wishing you the lack of Easter Bunny visitation this weekend. I had no idea you were a bunny lover too...

Give Butch a hug for me and I hope you get the best ever chocolate bunny for Easter.

Peace...

Oh, and I agree with you - I really do want to know what WAS in that box of Ben's? (Maybe just some yellow peeps?)

And to all you Sawyer lovers (me included) the link in post 172 above shows one HOT shot of shirtless Sawyer. (Thanks shikotee!)

Wonder if the Easter Bunny can bring me a chocolate covered Sawyer? YUM!!!!

#189. Posted by: BunnyLover at April 10, 2009 4:26 PM

Find that reading nearly 200 postings is a time consuming chore and I have only been through the first 60 or so before I have to run off to the rest of my life. Perhaps others have said it, but I disagree with Mac that the banishment of Widmore scene was anticlimactic. I liked it very much. It was the end of a decades long power struggle and the two men confronting each other, knowing that much more is to come, was very dramatic. Was not Widmore in cuffs and was he not being escorted by two heavies? Their different styles were also well balanced. Widmore, the tyrant who snaps the necks of his friends and allies when he thinks they are getting out of line. Ben, the sneaky, sly man, always devious, always oblique, telling Widmore that he has brought it on himself for breaking the rules (a phrase that would come back again.) What about all those other guys who leave the island at regular intervals? And why does Ben need all those passports and all that funny money, if not to leave the island from time to time? What a bitter pill for Widmore to swallow! And what did he say? "I'm not done with you, BOY!" or something like that?

Having disagreed with Mac may end up with me being marched to the end of the dock in cuffs, put on a submarine, never to be heard from again. One thing is very apparent to this reader of this blog--Mac rules!

#190. Posted by: August Paul at April 10, 2009 5:05 PM

→ 180. Posted by: DoIHearAnEko
Did anyone ever think that there are two different smokeys?

I was thinking that too. He sure did look different. Maybe He has different modes. Judge mode, Kill mode, scare the heck out of them mode.

#191. Posted by: berkyo at April 10, 2009 6:11 PM

Is there an inconsistency? When Ben was young when he killed his father and The Others took over the Dharma town. Yet he is older in Dead is Dead and the Others are still living in a campsite in the Woods. Shouldn't they have already occupied the Dharma town by then?

#192. Posted by: at April 10, 2009 7:26 PM

#185 lovelost re: Alex buried

I believe she was never buried. After Smokey wreaked havoac on Keamy and his men, Ben cried over her body and I think he left from there. At least they never showed it.

#186 BTLY re: Christian's change of clothes

You're right...he does seem to have a slight change of clothes. I'm thinking that we may just be seeing him in different pieces of his suit that he might have been buried in. Remember Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense...? We saw him in what appeared to be different clothes, but what we saw him in was always a variation of what he had on right before he died...suit, red sweater and trench coat. I find it interesting, but like most things with Lost, not sure how it all fits together, but I do believe there is something to that. Although...to reference back to #185...don't know why we've never seen Yemi again...

#193. Posted by: boodle at April 10, 2009 7:55 PM

as usual i am late to make a post, but i just watched the new episode for the first time,
watching locke lording it over ben was sublime, it was good to see bens agitation at having to put up with following locke's every word,
next roll reversal should be - hurley as head of security & sawyer as cook, hmm...
it coud work!

#194. Posted by: san at April 10, 2009 7:58 PM

Not only has this blog been completely insufficient this season, but now you have thrown in a Battlestar Galactica spoiler (As I have yet to watch the new season). i will have to erase you from my favorites or risk major spoilage.

#195. Posted by: Justin at April 10, 2009 8:57 PM

@-mac
i agree with you about widmore's exit from the island, we have to assume he was leader of the others for a very long time, the charges against him make me think there will be no back story regarding his departure, hmm... shame, it could have provided a very nice sub-plot.

#196. Posted by: san at April 10, 2009 9:05 PM

Okay, okay… let me just put a thought out there to my fellow posters about how great it would be for us to take the high road and not jump all over Justin. As he said, he’s erasing us from his favorites anyway, so he’ll never read your rebuttals. Unless he’s just trying to get attention, and in that case, no need to give it to him.

And put yourself in his shoes for a minute. We all have our favorite tv shows and most of us have probably been spoiled at some point, whether intentionally or not. I know, just the other day, I was perusing a Larry Hagman fansite, and before I could stop myself, I found out who shot J.R.

{{Sigh}}

#197. Posted by: Clementine at April 10, 2009 9:38 PM

1)What we hear from Richard (Q the lost sound maybe this is a lie or breaking the rules) Jacob is already on the Island. It's unussal thow Richard talks with Jacob at Charles leadership time but not at Ben's, not even to know were he is. Maybee the whole Ben thing was all a mistake and it's Richard's fault.

#198. Posted by: lost crumbs at April 10, 2009 10:31 PM

2)Then when Charles meets Richard there is a diffrent tone in his voice before and after Jacob's name is mentioned. Is he scarred of Richard because he is truly a man with power. Then it could explain why Ben hides Jacob from Richard. Is it that Charles knows he is lying. This could be where Ben lerns it so well. You can tell Charles clearly changed. Like it or not i'll do it. He could think its fate.(now that the word has been said)

#199. Posted by: Lost crumbs at April 10, 2009 11:08 PM

→ 174. tiffani: "if widmore didnt want everyone on the island killed except for ben, than how do you explain keamy and his team dam near killing everyone on the island."

The Keamy group made no attempt to attack the beach group, nor did they go after the Others at the temple.

When they saw Kate run through the woods towards the helicopter they did not attack, and Keamy did not kill Locke when he encountered him in the Orchid.

The killing of Rousseau and Karl was a leverage play to capture Alex and use her to force Ben to surrender. The Losties killed in the Barracks happened when Keamy crew's attacked after Ben retreated into his house.

I agree that they were not concerned about collateral damage, but their primary objective always seemed the capture of Ben- alive.

#200. Posted by: Mizzed at April 10, 2009 11:56 PM

At the risk of offending Benjamin fans, how do we know that he has the best interests of the island at heart, other than because he says so? Warning: extended Ben rant up ahead.

When Ben took over control from Widmore, he moved the Others from their natural outdoor lifestyle into almost a parody of small town life.

His motivation to create New Otherton, raise Alex as his daughter, and manipulate Juliet into a relationship all seem to derive from personal self-interest and his natural inability to form relationships in any way other than through deceit.

When Oceanic crashes, he is already losing support from RA (who tells Locke Ben has taken the Others away from their true mission) and Mikhail ("Ben is not a great man"), and is clearly feared and/or distrusted by Juliet, Harper and Goodwin.

Not only are his people unable to have children, but Ben has developed a large tumor on an island where tumors don't exist- a not very subtle message from the same island that had healed him as a boy.

Initially, Ben may have believed that Oceanic was a gift from the island, as it delivered a world-class surgeon as well as helped replenish the village's supply of children. It even gave him a convenient way to dispose of Goodwin.

But Oceanic also brought his replacement- a fact already known for 50 years by RA. While Ben pulled off a magnificent "long con" that stretched over almost two full seasons (and given last epi, how do we now view Danielle's "capture" of Ben/Henry in the net?) that resulted in Jack's saving his life, almost all of his closest allies died in the process- Ethan, Tom, Pickett, Pryce, Coleen, Klugh- none of them protected by the island.

Both of his attempts at salvaging his leadership- humiliating Locke by bringing Anthony Cooper to the island, and then shooting Locke at the grave site- fail miserably.

He also fails to stop Jack and Desmond from allowing Keamy's team to come to the island, even when he enlists Locke's help.

The final blow may have been his inability to communicate directly with Jacob, and his humiliation on having to rely on Locke and Hurley to get the island's instructions.

Reviewing the first four seasons, I'm hard pressed to come to any conclusion other than Ben had failed as steward of the Others, that the island had already identified Locke as his replacement, and that Ben's actions which seemed so masterful at the time, were really only desperate attempts to delay his inevitable banishment.

If Widmore broke the rules by attempting to regain control of the island, Ben may have broken the same rule- refusing to accept his end.

At his moment of truth, when he could have spared Alex and accepted the island's judgement that he was no longer its leader, Ben did what he always does- he looked out for himself.

This is why Ben was judged only on his decison to let Alex die. His moral failure not only caused her death, but it directly allowed the Oceanic 6 to break the "correct" chain of events and escape the island.

After Alex's death, Ben emotionally snapped, took Locke's place on the FDW, and conducted a 2 1/2 year war of revenge on Widmore and his associates.

Only after he found out that Locke also turned the FDW did the wheels begin to turn to reassemble the Oceanic 6 and get them back to the island. Even then, did he do it for the island, or for himself as a way to hitch a ride back?

His final off-island plan? An incredible act of cowardice to shoot an innocent woman and then immediately escape retribution by boarding the Ajira flight.

This is the face of the island, one of the "good guys"? I don't buy it, so tell me what I'm missing.

#201. Posted by: Mizzed at April 11, 2009 12:41 AM

I can not believe no one has mentioned the OZ reference Of the tornado! As Ben in inside Smokey and the flashes are going before him is directly from The movie version when Dorthy is see her flashes as the tornado spins!

#202. Posted by: Tiff at April 11, 2009 1:11 AM

@197 Clementine revealed:

>Okay, okay… let me just put a thought out there to my fellow posters about how great it would be for us to take the high road and not jump all over Justin. As he said, he’s erasing us from his favorites anyway, so he’ll never read your rebuttals. Unless he’s just trying to get attention, and in that case, no need to give it to him.

>And put yourself in his shoes for a minute. We all have our favorite tv shows and most of us have probably been spoiled at some point, whether intentionally or not. I know, just the other day, I was perusing a Larry Hagman fansite, and before I could stop myself, I found out who shot J.R.

What! Somebody shot JR? How could you spoil me like that! And here I was just finishing season 1 of "Dallas" on DVD. Now I must throw away the boxed set, you've ruined it for me. Ruined it, I say.

...

Seriously, there's got to be some sort of statute of limitations on spoilage, otherwise how could mac write his blog? I'd say first US broadcast (with allowance for time zones) is a reasonable dividing point. Anyone time shifting (by days or by decades) should either avoid discussion sites or live with the possibility.

#203. Posted by: Cecil at April 11, 2009 1:15 AM

I don't think Locke is dead, or at least I don't think he's a manifestation of Smokey's. The people that have shown up via Smokey appear out of nowhere, disappear just as quickly. They don't hang around. Locke, on the other hand, is almost ever present. He walks from place to place with people, hangs around, carries torches, etc... I don't think that's consistent with how the other manifestations behave (Christian, Eko's childhood friend, Hurley's imaginary friend, and Alex). There is definitely something different about Locke.

Also, as far as I understand, Claire is not dead. She ran off into the jungle and next we see her is in Jacob's cabin with Christian. There was never any death scene for her though. Am I forgetting something?

We hear Ben say to Locke "I knew it!", but he never really specifies what "it" is. He then tells Sun something completely different. "I had no idea that the island would bring Locke back to life" or something to that effect. Those two statements seem completely opposite but is there any way that they could both actually be true? What is the "it" that Ben knew? I think we assume he's referring to the island bringing him back to life, but I'm not totally convinced of that.

I also agree that the big box on the beach is not from the plane they arrived on.

If Ben's rule about not being allowed to return to the island once you turn the FDW then isn't Locke also in violation? Is the fact that he was returned to the island without his consent (seeing as how he was dead) some kind of exemption for him?

And I also liked that Widmore was sent packing via the sub. I fully expected him to be the one that turns the FDW and dislodges it, but not that it's not him we know that there's yet another person who turns that wheel and dislodges it. Could it be Faraday?

This was one of my favorite episodes. It showed/explained so much and yet, again, opened up even more questions.

#204. Posted by: Mike at April 11, 2009 1:22 AM

"what lies in the shadow of the statue?"

Vincent. Poor long-hair dog in the tropics... takes his shade wherever he can.

#205. Posted by: DocH at April 11, 2009 3:23 AM

Mizzed @167: "But Eko lived by a unique self code, one that allowed for moral gray areas where the ends justify the means. While he called himself a priest, he rejected basic Catholic doctrines of confession, absolution and forgiveness."

Actually, Eko conformed admirably well to Catholic doctrine considering he was marooned on an island. Remember when he met with Benry in the jail cell? That was his confession. Confession was essential because Eko intended to receive the sacrament of ordination. There was no priest to whom to make his confession or to ordain him, so Eko made his confession to Benry and then cut his beard.

The cutting of his beard is called "tonsure". Nun's used to cut their hair when they took their final vows. Catholicism accepts the act of tonsure as a means by which one can enter the priesthood when the formal ordination process is not possible. It isn't actually becoming a priest, but The Church accepts it in a pinch. And Eko was certainly in a pinch.

I always felt that Eko's refusal to "confess" to Smokey was because 1.He had already made his sincere confession and act of contrition and 2. He'd rather be damned before he'd bow to a smoke monster; he served God and only God.

It is specifically Eko's experience that has always made me wary of Smokey. I feel that Smokey's "judgment" is concerned with who will serve him, not with the personal redemption of the person he is dealing with. I think my belief is supported by the fact that Ben skated through his own judgement.

#206. Posted by: undaunted at April 11, 2009 7:54 AM

We are assuming that the child Charles fathered off island with an outsider is Penny. It might be that Charles fathered Locke, which would add one more reason Ben is not onboard with Locke as "Leader". It also adds a dimension to Ben's order that Locke kill his father. TMFT was a dry run...Locke failed; Sawyer killed TMFT. It would seem Alpert wasn't concerned that Locke kill "his father". Could be that Alpert knows TMFT wasn't Locke's father, so it was OK for Sawyer to do the deed.

"What lies in the shadow of the statue?" If that is code, that means that there is a person on the island who has been in place for sometime waiting for his/her contact to arrive. I figure that Ilana's handler is Widmore. I wonder who the mole is.

I still am wary of Christian and now of Alex too. I am not yet convinced that Ben is a bad guy. I think he is acting in what he believes to be the best interest of the island.

There is a McGuffin of the first order on that island. Until I know what it is, I can't be sure whose motives are good and whose motives are bad.

#207. Posted by: undaunted at April 11, 2009 8:09 AM

I am surprised that no one has written about the fundamental flaw in the Widmore exile scene. Widmore was exiled from the island because he had for years traveled off-island, had a child and a second life (as an industrialist). Widmore, as a leader, knows the coordinates and travel requirements to get back to the island. So the two bullet-proof vested guards take Widmore away on the very submarine he had been using for years.

It would not take Widmore 20 years to "find" the island and seek revenge because he was not banished by moving the FDW. Widmore's freighter crew would have returned to wage war on Ben within hours or days of returning to the mainland.

#208. Posted by: welh at April 11, 2009 9:31 AM

@Cecil: I second that. "...first US broadcast (with allowance for time zones)" is appropriate.

Re: the Kara Thrace "spoiler": that little tidbit was revealed in the BSG episode "Islanded in a Stream of Stars," which aired March 6. My "Dead Is Dead" review was posted more than a month later.

#209. Posted by: mac at April 11, 2009 10:00 AM

Remember Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense...? We saw him in what appeared to be different clothes, but what we saw him in was always a variation of what he had on right before he died...suit, red sweater and trench coat. 193. Posted by: boodle

What!?! Bruce Willis WAS DEAD!?!?!

Maaaaaaaan! You People! First it was who shot J.R. . . and NOW THIS!!!!!

Next thing you guys will say is that Capt. Kirk dies and lives in some kind of nether world! And THAT would be totally absurd.

I mean . . .that would be like . . . well, Christian Shepherd getting out of his coffin and walking around the LOST island . . .

oh.


nevermind.

#210. Posted by: davidrh at April 11, 2009 10:36 AM

Mac and Cecil are probably right.

#211. Posted by: davidrh at April 11, 2009 10:37 AM

my comments thus far:

Why doesn't danielle recognize ben when he gets caught up in her net in season 2? am i really expected to believe that she would forget the face of the man who stole her baby?

also, the "shadow of the statue" thinger... it really reminded me of the snowman question that desmond asked locke when he first arrived. definitely some type of code. and that makes me wonder if those people are remnants from off island darma?

@132 Schiano:
love the matrix reference!!!

mizz
i agree that widmore could have teamed up with darma... and that explains widmores fortune. my question then is bens fortune... where'd that come from?

and furthermore, we've seen ben's many passports... so clearly he's travelled off island too... why isn't that against the island code? i guess ben could have been making up the code ...

205. Posted by: DocH
I miss vincent!

#212. Posted by: klughs at April 11, 2009 12:05 PM

@ 54. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes
@ 81. Posted by: Rob Medor

Re: Why did Ben tell Locke to apologize to Desmond

I was thinking about that too, and I think that all of the other “bad” things that Ben has done he has always been able to justify by saying the was doing it to “protect the island” or because “Jacob wants it to happen.” He never has any remorse for doing any of those things. However I think it was clearly Ben’s own personal agenda to attempt to kill Penny, resulting in him shooting Desmond. I think that is why he felt the need to apologize to Desmond, especially right before going to be judged.

#213. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at April 11, 2009 1:11 PM

Rose and Bernard are the two skeletons in the caves (sometimes known as Adam and Eve). We'll find this out in future flash around scenes.

)***************************>>>>>>

#214. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at April 11, 2009 3:39 PM

@-214 mr._naysayer
i have heard this theory re-bernard & rose before but the posts concerning the issue of the skeletons at the caves did not seem to be anymore than theories, it would appear from your post that you know this for a fact, i was happy to read what people believed may happen, but didnt need to know this piece of info to be fact.

#215. Posted by: san at April 11, 2009 4:44 PM

Something I'm curious about that I can't recall if it's been mentioned. Richard Alpert and his merry band of Others have been living in tents for, well, all of the 'past' time that we've seen them, right? In the 50's, in the 70's, in the 80's, until the purge when they move to New Othertown. Does that imply that they are constantly on the move? Otherwise, don't you think they would just build a house or some other permanent structure? Or, if they truly have walls that surround a temple, is there a reason they don't live within the walls? Sorry if I'm way off base or if I'm not remembering correctly or if this has been covered.

#216. Posted by: shazel at April 11, 2009 11:31 PM

→ 216. Posted by: shazel
Darned good question. They had a little fancier framed tents when Charles visited Ben, kinda like the camp when Micheal was captive. They had military looking tents in 1954. Did all the Others move into newotherton? Never saw Cindy or the kids there. No sign of Isabel, the justice from Juliet's trial.

#217. Posted by: mtncbn at April 12, 2009 12:26 AM

Regarding the BSG spoiler, you would do yourself a favor to stop watching at the end of season 4! Believe me BSG goes to crap in the last 90 minutes. They will literally show you a pooping "angel."

Regarding Rose & Bernard, I'm not sure how they could be Adam and Eve at their age. Perhaps you mean that their skeletons were found 150,000 years ago?

#218. Posted by: DFTR at April 12, 2009 8:25 AM

In honor of Bunnylover, Ben's bad haircut and Jack's horrible beard, I bring you the Rabbit of Seville, starring Bugs Bunny:

How do??
Welcome to my shop, let me cut your mop, let me shave your crop
Daintily, daintily
Hey you!!
Don't look so perplexed, why must you be vexed, can't you see you're next
Yes you're next, you're so next
How about a nice close shave
Teach your whiskers to behave
Lots of lather lots of soap
Please hold still don't be a dope
Now we're ready for the scraping
There's no use to try escaping
Yell & scream & rant & rave
It's no use you need a shave

#219. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 12, 2009 2:04 PM

Lost Caption Idea:

What lies in the shadow of the statue? Is it a secret code a la "what did one snowman say to the other?" or has Ilana developed a severe case of island sickness? How would you have answered the question if you were Frank?

#220. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 12, 2009 2:12 PM

http://bit.ly/RoL2h

I know it’s long but here’s an interesting entry from Popular Science Magazine entitled:
“Lost Channels Ancient Egyptian Legend to Explain Smoke Monster”

#221. Posted by: davidrh at April 12, 2009 2:36 PM

i have been giving some thought about the others choice of where they live, i believe them to be opportunists, we saw them using what appeared to be u.s army issue equipment including their camp in 1954.
althought their camp looked like their own consrtuction in this episode we know they moved in & usurped the dharma village & its resources-presumably so that they could enjoy the finer things in life, like book clubs and breakfast on the beach.

#222. Posted by: san at April 12, 2009 3:23 PM

Picking up on davidrh's suggestion (post 221)...

Taweret - although I suggested, long ago, the Anubis theory I have to admit that it makes sense:

1 - Taweret is the Egyptian Goddess of Fertility, Maternity and Childbirth.
3 - She's the deity of protection in pregnancy and childbirth. Also protector of women and children.
5 - She was thought to assist women in labour and scare off demons that might harm the mother or child (interesting...)
2 - She is the demon-wife of Apep (ol' Smokey)!!!
4 - She was often shown holding the Sa hieroglyph of protection http://tinyurl.com/clzxa8) or the Ankh hieroglyph of life in both hands.
6 - She was represented in the form of a pregnant hippopotamus, with a crocodile tail, lion paws and huge breasts.
This fits to the 4 toes and the ears not so long as a jackal.

This even gives us a good explanation for the Island birth problem. The protection ended when the statue was destroyed.
That is if the statue was just destroyed in the Incident. BTW, I believe the Incident is the detonation of Jughead, caused by Faraday (and Chang, perhaps) to solve the back to the future issue.
Of course, this would meant that the statue is still standing in the 70's. How tall was that thing? It couldn't go unnoticed easily...


Now, what's still bothering me about "our" statue:

1 - The human form. Didn't find any statue of Taweret in human form nor with a kilt, like Anubis.
She would always be represented in animal shape, therefore naked.
2 - The hieroglyphics. In the scene Ben sees at Smokey's lair (http://tinyurl.com/dhb42m) it's clearly long-eared Anubis who's represented seated in front of Apep.
3 - The legs. As I explained before the left leg should be in front. But that could be just an editing mistake. Maybe they used a mirrored image.

Well, I know this is "just" a TV show so the representation of whoever egyptian god that is can be whatever they wanted to be, right?

Although this is LOST we don't always need to be too much focused on details...

#223. Posted by: PreacherOnun at April 12, 2009 7:03 PM

@-davidrh
i just had a look at the link you provided, hmm.. makes very interesting reading, my guess is that the writers are trying to "marry" certain aspects of ancient egyptian culture to create a different way of looking at it.
my hope is that no egyptologists are watching the show & throwing things at the tv screen!!

#224. Posted by: san at April 12, 2009 7:35 PM

@135 Cecil
I like your theory about a hyper immune system both healing the sick but also leading to women's immune systems going into overdrive and fighting off an embryos as if it were a foreign invader. For a while I thought it was sort of that in reverse -– that is, time moves more slowly on the island so embryos don't grow cells properly. Before all this time travel stuff, I thought Rose's cancer remission and Richard's age-defying eyeliner were the result of super slow cell growth. Remember Faraday's rocket experiment, where his clock on the island was a half hour slower/earlier than the clock on the payload rocket. Or the freighter doctor floating back to the island, where he was dead before he was killed on the freighter. I thought then that time simply moved slower on the island. But then came time traveling and Mrs. Hawking's comment that the island is always moving in time. So I guess I'm with you, Cecil, your theory makes more sense. The question, then, is what is in the environment that puts immune systems on overdrive and why didn't it help Ben and his tumor?

Side note: If you believe that the island is a sentient being and Ben's tumor was a result of the island not being happy with him for some reason, I also wonder whether Jack's appendicitis was the island's way of trying to keep him from leaving. Similarly, Walt's burning of the raft as the island not letting people leave who still have work to do.

@140 r Wizzle
I think we saw Cindy with the Others after that, when Locke wouldn't kill his father and she said, "We’ve been waiting for you." I found it interesting that she referred to the Others as "we."

@142 welh
To all the misleading comments from TPTB about no time travel and everything explainable by science, I give them a big phhhhhbbbbbb!!!

@191 berkyo re: Smokey having different modes.
Don't forget Hurley's father's mode!

Other random comments/thoughts:

My impression was that Ben was surprised to see the Losties in the picture, but we can only speculate. I wonder if LaFleur, Juliet and Jin ever made it into a class photo or not, because of their unusual entrance into Dharma.

Speaking of pictures, why was Ben desperate to get the picture of Alex out of the frame on Hydra island? Did he know Smokey would need to scan it or something?

Why did Ben befriend Caesar only to shoot him later? Seemed an unnecessarily complicated manipulation. Moreover, once he stole the gun, why did he have to shoot Caeser? They were free to take the outrigger and go at that point.

Have we ever seen Ben and Christian in the same scene? I don't think so.

If Smokey is a vapor that is stopped by water, as someone posted, wouldn't that confine him to the island? There have been a few times where we thought Smokey was doing things off the island.

Locke is wearing Christian's shoes; he puts them on when they arrive back on the main island. Relevance?

What was the "critical information" Locke had that Ben needed to get before he died. Just the name Mrs. Hawking or something else?

#225. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at April 12, 2009 9:36 PM

Locke is wearing Christian's shoes; he puts them on when they arrive back on the main island. Relevance?
225. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

I thought Jack brought some shoes and put them in Locke's casket. Got them from his GrandDad, right?

#226. Posted by: davidrh at April 12, 2009 10:01 PM

@ 208 - Widmore, as a leader, knows the coordinates and travel requirements to get back to the island.

Perhaps not without picking up the Looking Glass signal, which would now be refused to Widmore. Possibly. OTOH, I haven't seen anyone here asking - how did any of the Others get on and off Island before the Dharma sub? For that matter, the banishment of Widmore could have been mere days after the purge. So the question stands.

But the Question is not, "How come Widmore couldn't find the island?" It is, "How did anyone get on and off the island before the Sub and L.G. were around?"

#227. Posted by: Bill at April 12, 2009 11:23 PM

131--Cecil

I think I have the name for my band now--Coriolus Forces! That's fun to say too!


164--OCDLOST was talking about the absence of Faraday.
I'm sure he'll be back as he seems to be integral to something coming up. But it's been kind of nice not having him around. His acting style grates on my nerves.

162--stontilam mentioned Ben was only originally supposed to be in a few episodes. I rmember that as well. I think they also said there was supposed to be another character which filled the role Ben ended up filling. There was always going to be someone who was the Others leader and key figure to the series as an antagonist. But the Ben character turned out to be so popular they bumped him up to that more prominent role. So they're really wouldn't have ever been a Lost without aome one filling Ben's role in the story. It just wouldn't have been the ben character but someone else.

In regards to the BSG spoilers...Never got into that show but have to agree posting something about an episode that aired more than a month earlier isn't a spoiler. If that Justin guy is such a BIG fan of BSG why's it taking him over a month to see an episode. Couldn't have been that important to him. Can't imagine getting even a week behind a show I care about like Lost--much less a month. Good grief--it really takes some guts to complain about things like that.

#228. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 13, 2009 9:36 AM

Back in March, 19th 2009 I wrote:
“I don’t think Faraday is dead but maybe he lost it for good and abandoned them. Or maybe he just has his own agenda. Somebody has to provoke the incident, right? Besides, I was counting on him to find the way back to the future. I didn’t see any light blue DeLorean, so I guess they’re using the electromagnetic field of a
“controlled” atomic blast of our own H-bomb!”

Remember this secret video? http://www*youtube*com/watch?v=ZvGnPlADR9o

As someone mentioned before, Dr. Chang was recorded by Daniel Faraday whose voice we can hear in the back.
They sent this video 30 years into the future. Pierre-Edgar-Marvin Chang-Halliwax-Candle states that’s imperative to reconstitute DI and continue their research because time IS the essence; that perhaps new DI would find a way to change the past, thus saving them from the purge. To confirm is knowledge of the future he says that US President is George W. Bush and that we share digital information via The Internet. I think he was referring to The Lost Blog :)
What he didn’t know was that DI has no reason to be anymore because the World is already saved since Barack Obama was elected!

So, if Faraday is with Dr. Chang we are yet to see these scenes. Or not… anybody recognized the apparently dead guy in next week’s preview?

.....................................

BTW, there’s a theory about Sun being Dr. Chang’s baby supported on the fact that she didn’t foomed out of Ajira 316.
The theory says that Sun and Ben didn’t foomed because they’re already on the island: Sun as a baby and Ben as a child, although her birth date is March 20, 1980 (info Lostpedia). The idea was that Pierre would take her from the Island leaving her at the care of his friend Paik, not knowing that something would go wrong and he would never see his daughter again.
Bur (there’s always a but) in the video he shouts to his wife “Just take HIM outside!” referring to the baby crying in the back.
Now, as you might know Portuguese is my language of birth. So I’m asking all of you natives:
- that expression can only refer to a baby boy, not to a baby girl, right?

#229. Posted by: PreacherOnun at April 13, 2009 9:44 AM

Suggested "official" name for Smokey (since Ben claims they haven't named it):

AMMUT

Egyptian belief: The dead devourer

Depiction: A goddess, Ammut was depicted with the head of a crocodile, the forequarters of a lion, and the hindquarters of a hippopotamus.

Mythology: Ammut was a soul-eating monster. She witnessed the judgment of the dead in the "Hall of the Two Truths,” called Maaty. Before souls could enter the afterlife they had to pass judgment by Osiris. As the king of the underworld, Osiris admitted only those souls who had lived good lives and who had received the proper burial rights under the protection of certain amulets and the recitation of certain words of power and divinity. To judge if a soul was worthy of entering the afterlife, the deceased’s heart was placed on one side of the Scales of Truth and a feather of Ma’at on the other side. If the heart, where the Egyptians believed the soul dwelled, was heavy with sins and outweighed the feather, Ammut ate the soul dooming it to eternal death. If the heart weighed equal to Ma’at’s feather, the soul earned eternal life in the Duat, a fertile land.

Hmmm.... a soul-eating monster sound familiar?

And, further research on Egyptian Gods reveals:

HORUS (Horace G?): God of the Pharoahs; depicted with a hawk head; often referred to as the ruler of the world of the living.

RA (Richard Alpert?): The Sun God and the most important God of ancient Egypt; known as the king of the Gods. Depcited as a man with a black falcon head. It was believed that Ra traveled through the underworld at night, hence the reason the sun "disappeared."

ANNUBIS (depited on tomb wall): the Egyptian God of Embalming and the guide of the dead. Depicted as a man with a black jackal head. The Egyptians believed that embalming preserved them and helped them lived forever.

Eye Symbols: the Egyptians referred to images of the left eye as the Eye of Horus (symbolizing the moon) and the right eye as being the Eye of Ra (the sun).

Could Smokey be Ammut, the dead devourer?
Could the judgement room where we saw Ben be symbolic of Maaty, the Hall of Two Truths?
Could Richard really be an Egyptian God, hence the reason that he alone seems to never, ever age or change in appearance?

Lots to think about. I love this show!

#230. Posted by: GatorGal at April 13, 2009 10:05 AM

********** SPOILER **********

This one is only about Lost.
Sorry Dallas, BSG, Star Trek and Night Shyamalan fans...

Next episode Naomi's back, but not from the dead however, and we're going to have a young Miles.
IMDB also casts two young actresses to play teenage sisters Jules and Rachel in ep.14 "The Variable".
I wonder if we’re going to have some flashbacks or, OTOH is it something else…?

If we can expect that Naomi will be chatting with Miles, should we expect just a Juliet flashback?
Or did Daniel really travel off island trying to find a solution for their problem and, doing so, ended up meeting young Juliet?

Ok, ok, maybe I’m pushing it too much. But it would be nice if TPTB explore the off island context in the 70’s.

#231. Posted by: PreacherOnun at April 13, 2009 10:07 AM

@ 219 Scooby-Dude


B-R-A-V-O !!!

BRAVO!!!

(much clapping and happiness abounds)

I am certain that the Easter Bunny was good to you.

#232. Posted by: BunnyLover at April 13, 2009 11:20 AM

Re: Island's healing abilities

If the island can give people sicknesses as well as heal - Ben and Jack - why doesn't it just make all the "bad people" die with some awful sickness. The immune system boost sounds logical.

I'm watching season three and in Not in Portland, RA seems(He could be posing) to be a big wheel at Mitelos Bio Science. They have a real building and Ethan is there too (BTW he was also in the hallway at the place where she worked . A hospital? Bio Research?).

RA interviews Juliette and shows her pics of a human womb that she identifies as belonging to a 70 year old woman. RA says the woman is 26 years old. And they were interested in Juliette because she successfully impregnated a male rat.

Maybe RA is from the future and because of "the war" woman become infertile. That would mean the end of civilization. So maybe RA is on a quest through the islands swinging through time to find an answer to this problem?

That would solve his aging and his wardrobe inconsistencies. But not his preference for the jungle look,tents and low tech. Could it be that that all the others are just people that have found the island and RA is willing to share the "bounty" of the island as long as no one harms his "time bus"? And maybe they have to offer to help him too. As long as they do what the island wants, they can benefit from it.

Smokey could be a futuristic security system.

I can't tie in the Egyptian elements with this though and they are very heavy, So they must fit somewhere.

#233. Posted by: berkyo at April 13, 2009 12:50 PM

Suggested "official" name for Smokey (since Ben claims they haven't named it):
AMMUT - Egyptian belief: The dead devourer
(and others . . . )
230. Posted by: GatorGal

I was thinking . . . MORTY.

Neighborhood kid when I was growing up who had a severe
case of continuous gas emissions.

I guess you had to be there to really
appreciate the similarities . . .


I'll just quietly go to my room now.

#234. Posted by: davidrh at April 13, 2009 2:21 PM

i loved bens meet & greet with cesar on the beach, ben was as plausible as ever, you have to admire the way ben tells someone something & makes the other person think it was their own idea.
i also liked lockes "i have a few ideas" comment to sun, this has always been a ben comment-till now!

#235. Posted by: san at April 13, 2009 4:07 PM

@234 davidrh proposed.

>I was thinking . . . MORTY.

It's MUERTE!

#236. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 13, 2009 4:21 PM

The Ack Attach for Dead is Dead is up:

http://www.theackattack.net/

#237. Posted by: Cecil at April 13, 2009 4:24 PM

@ 179. ransomjackson

I too was hoping that this episode would reveal what was in the box that Ben had hidden in the vent at the motel. Ben's reaction to Jack coming in while handling the small box was very mysterious and he was obviously trying to hide it from Jack. I haven't a clue what was in it but I'm dying to know!

#238. Posted by: addicted2Lost at April 13, 2009 5:16 PM

@-237 cecil
i just checked out the ack link you provided, the morph thing how it showed young ben turn into older ben was very good.

#239. Posted by: san at April 13, 2009 5:26 PM

@192.

I'm incredibly confused on that too. Doesn't the submarine belong to the others? Then wouldn't the purge have had to have happened by the time Widmore left? Because weren't they putting him on the sub?? Maybe I'm wrong - my mind weaves the episodes together and I'm starting to have a tough time keeping track of exactly when "what" happened!! I'm still addicted though!

#240. Posted by: addicted2Lost at April 13, 2009 5:34 PM

on my above post - I meant to say "doesn't the submarine belong to Dharma" - Sorry!!!

#241. Posted by: addicted2Lost at April 13, 2009 5:35 PM

@ 202. Tiff

Nice Catch on the Oz reference! I didn't think about it at the time! (I'm usually in a trance during Lost!) Good job! :)

#242. Posted by: addicted2Lost at April 13, 2009 5:46 PM

@ 203 & 209 - Mac & Cecil -

Thank you for making that clear! I don't understand why people who have yet to see a show delve into the "reviews." I don't particularly like to know the outcome of events, but sometimes it happens. It's not really a huge deal.

#243. Posted by: I am a Lostie at April 13, 2009 5:52 PM

i just read the whole review on ack,
i have a sore face with laughing,thank you cecil for the link to the site.

#244. Posted by: san at April 13, 2009 6:25 PM

@san et al

And you can amuse yourself reading the back seasons, too.

#245. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 13, 2009 6:51 PM

The Ack Attack link
→ 237. Posted by: Cecil

Thanks for the reminder, Cecil.

And...from the photos, it is clear that both young Charles and Ben are sporting Cindy's scarf.

#246. Posted by: lovelost at April 13, 2009 7:26 PM

Whew! I'm exhausted...couldn't read all weekend so I just read 100+ posts, the Rolling Stone article, the Popular Mechanics article and the Ack Attack recap. What lies in the shadow of the statue? Me...I have to go process all of this. I'll comment tomorrow.

At least no one spoiled the end of the new Hannah Montana movie...now that would be an atrocity! Who would guess that she would admit her real identity in the middle of a concert...d'oh...sorry! ;-)

#247. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 13, 2009 11:14 PM

→ 233. berkyo: "If the island can give people sicknesses as well as heal - Ben and Jack - why doesn't it just make all the "bad people" die with some awful sickness. The immune system boost sounds logical."

The immune system idea seemed plausible until the Ethan birth scene- women used to carry children to term on the island, so apparently something changed.

Perhaps it's punishment from the island for Ben's pushing the Others away from their true mission, perhaps it's physical and has to due with energies released in the "incident", or perhaps it's a wild card event we haven't seen yet.

Sick Ben and sick Jack appeared to be working against the island's wishes- Ben for drifting away from the official island mission statement, and Jack for insisting on getting everybody on that freighter.

I still think Ben is working for Ben, not the island. Not only did RA withdraw support and Jacob cut-off communication, but the island made him sick and airmailed in his hand-picked replacement.

Ben setting up Goodwin, shooting Locke, letting Alex die, attempting to kill Penny- those actions seem driven by Ben's emotions, not the island's plan. When Ben entered the temple as a boy, it must have permanently stunted his emotional development at the age of 12.

As for Jack and the freighter, if we work backwards:

1. Faraday may be the mechanism that will get the Losties back to the present day, therefore he had to go back in time himself

2. Both the Jack and Sawyer groups had to go the 70's to ensure that future events (Danielle, Ethan, Ben, etc) played out as necessary

3. Since the Jack group was destined to go back in time, they were not supposed to be rescued on the helicopter, but were supposed to jump time with Sawyer, Juliet, etc. The off-island events to get them on the Ajira flight were "course correction"

4. Sun, Lapidus, Aaron and Desmond were not needed in the past, and were supposed to be on the rescue helicopter- Sun to have her baby, Aaron to fulfill Desmond's vision, Lapidus to fly it, Desmond to remember his encounter with Faraday and seek out Hawking

5. Since the Losties needed to go back in time, someone needed to turn the FDW. According to Christian, it was Locke, not Ben that was to turn the wheel and throw Jack, Sawyer, etc back in time. Ben took Locke's place for personal reasons (revenge vs. Widmore), creating more "course correction" that fortunately meshed with point #3

6. Because the freighter research team needed to be on the island to go back in time, the freighter could not be destroyed by Michael before it reached the island, even though Ben could easily have planted a bomb to do so.

So- the freighter had to reach proximity to the island to allow the Faraday group to get off and the Sun-Desmond group to get on. Locke would turn the FDW, making the island disapear and eliminating future Widmore threats.

If we follow the string of events even further back, Charlie had to die so that both the freighter and Penny could communicate to the island, Desmond and Locke had to have the crisis of faith that allowed the Swan to implode and Penny (and her father) to locate the island.

Locke and Eko had to find the Pearl station so that Locke would have his faith in the numbers destroyed by the revelations in the Pearl orientation video. The Pearl was found as a result of an Eko dream where Yemi told him to seek the "question mark".

Desmond can only find the Looking Glass because a) Juliet has betrayed Ben's plans to plant her as a mole, and b) because Sayid found the cable when he was an outcast after torturing Sawyer.

So this season of Lost has its foundation on Eko and Desmond visions, Sawyer refusing to give Shannon an inhaler and Ben playing "if you can't have her, nobody can" with Goodwin.

#248. Posted by: Mizzed at April 14, 2009 1:03 AM

If Widmore can send a "box" back to the island - then why cannot he get back to it himself?

"i have been trying to get back to that island for 20 years" he said - so has he tried and failed - or has he just not found the way to do it yet?

#249. Posted by: Tao at April 14, 2009 9:18 AM

If Locke is supposed to be THE ONE, which I think is the case, then:
*Ben was acting selflessly turning the FDW, evidenced by his 'I hope your happy Jacob' statement.
*Christian is a bad egg, he got Locke banished by turning the wheel, even though it took two tries.
*Unknown - I'm trying to remember when Ben first found that Locke was off island, thus wasting his sacrifice, and his reaction. He did accomplish getting dead Locke back to the island. His allegiance may just be to the island, but is the island good or bad?

#250. Posted by: mtncbn at April 14, 2009 11:10 AM

@248 Mizzed theorized:

>The immune system idea seemed plausible until the Ethan birth scene- women used to carry children to term on the island, so apparently something changed.

But do we know when and where Ethan was conceived? Perhaps off-island. We did hear they ordinarily go off-island to give birth. Claire carried to erm on the island but we know it was onceived off island.

Confusingly, Sun conceived on-island, but delivered sucessfully off-island. Juliet seemd to indicate there was critical time to leave to avoid consequences. To avoid super-immunity building up, perhaps?

---

One of my other shows is featuring dead characters, as well - see the new House review by clicking my name below... Amber's back. will we see a Kutner return?

#251. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 14, 2009 11:12 AM

@ 248/Mizzed wrote:
"4. Sun, Lapidus, Aaron and Desmond were not needed in the past, and were supposed to be on the rescue helicopter- Sun to have her baby, Aaron to fulfill Desmond's vision, Lapidus to fly it, Desmond to remember his encounter with Faraday and seek out Hawking."

Are you suggesting "another" plane crash to get Aaron and Desmond to the island to fulfill the past vision?

#252. Posted by: welh at April 14, 2009 12:16 PM

@ 248/Mizzed wrote:
"4. Sun, Lapidus, Aaron and Desmond were not needed in the past, and were supposed to be on the rescue helicopter- Sun to have her baby, Aaron to fulfill Desmond's vision, Lapidus to fly it, Desmond to remember his encounter with Faraday and seek out Hawking."

What was Desmond Vision? Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter? I think Desmond would not Mistake Sun for Claire. I always thought Desmond just made that up so Charlie would go along with his plans.

Maybe the NEXT time they leave the Island, Claire and Aaron get on together.

#253. Posted by: berkyo at April 14, 2009 12:50 PM

#6 your right Rousseau did say that the smoke was there when they took Alex. I just don know that it was in season 1.
#17 Richard even wears Egyptian eye liner.

#254. Posted by: GAY at April 14, 2009 1:15 PM

New Podcast on DID at ABC and also a nice interview with Benry. He must be a good actor because I saw very little of Benry in Emerson.

The Podcast has a good discussion on WHH and whether the characters know what they are talking about.

#255. Posted by: berkyo at April 14, 2009 1:34 PM

I think our speculations are being tripped up by the necessity versus contingency paradox.

On one hand we’ve got “necessity”: we know there is Course Correction - that whatever “must” happen will happen by some means or other. On the other hand there is “contingency” - it doesn’t matter how it happens, as long as it brings about whatever must happen.

So there is something arbitrary or circular to our speculations on who had to sent where, or back to when, in order to bring about whatever. At best can only know which happenings are necessities in hindsight: if one person tries relentlessly to kill himself but he just can’t die (or if someone tries relentlessly to keep someone else from dying), then, okay, once the person finally dies we can infer (maybe!) that some necessity was involved: Event X could _only_ have been carried out by person Y. …Otherwise any given fore-ordained happening could have come about by some other means, through course correction.

Course correction means that, except for the most crucial but specifically required island outcomes - which we do not know! - any particular constellation of events that has moved the plot forward could just as well have been moved forward by a different constellation of events.

Ironically 228 CrispySeaplane has provided an analogy:

“Ben was only originally supposed to be in a few episodes. I remember that as well. I think they also said there was supposed to be another character which filled the role Ben ended up filling. There was always going to be someone who was the Others leader and key figure to the series as an antagonist. But the Ben character turned out to be so popular they bumped him up to that more prominent role. So they're really wouldn't have ever been a Lost without some one filling Ben's role in the story. It just wouldn't have been the Ben character but someone else.”

So the decisions of TPTB are like the course correcting island: they know the end point and the general dynamics to get us there. Perhaps they originally envisioned – who knows - Ana Lucia to play a role of Ben-like magnitude, Mr. Eko to deliver some of the thematic load that Desmond or Miles are now carrying, and – let’s go crazy - Nikki and Paulo were intended as noble heroes for whom we’d shed bitter tears when revealed in the last episode as Adam and Eve. ...Characters not turning out as convincing conveyors of island destiny? a marvelous actor needs out of his contract? a minor character shows amazing acting chops? Okay, =whoosh= course correction: bye-bye Ana Lucia, Eko, and Paolikki, hello newly-central Ben, and so on. Even as TPTB remain true to their essential vision.

In both cases, within Lost mythos itself or within the modified scripts of TPTB, we can’t really know which are essential aspects of the Lost universe until we understand the larger whole. Because of the god-like power of course correction.

#256. Posted by: iheartsayid at April 14, 2009 2:52 PM

I just had a thought.

Perhaps Adam and Eve are not really Bernard and Rose after all. Maybe, they are Paolo and Nikki. Vincent hasn't been seen in a while. Surely, that is enough time for him to have dug them up and dragged them to the caves.

#257. Posted by: Gumbo at April 14, 2009 3:15 PM

Perhaps Adam and Eve are not really Bernard and Rose after all... they are Paolo and Nikki. Vincent [could have] dug them up and dragged them to the caves.
→ 257. Posted by: Gumbo

If we see Vincent wearing a diamond-studded collar, then we'll know for sure that's what happened.

#258. Posted by: lovelost at April 14, 2009 4:23 PM

The next episode is some like it Hoth.So maybe smokie is the egyptian moon God Thoth whom RA
appointed when he retired from the earth to rule , ordering him to keep a register of those who were there, and to mete out just punishments to them. Thoth became the representation of Ra in the afterlife, seen at the judgement of the dead in the ‘Halls of the Double Ma’at’.Believed to be the author of the spells in the Book of the Dead, he was a helper (and punisher) of the deceased as they try to enter the underworld. As voice of the sun-god Ra, he carried the utchat, or Eye of Ra, the symbol of Ra’s ubiquitous power.Remember Locke saying he looked into the eye of the Island when he saw smokie or that smokie was the eye.Just throwing it out there

#259. Posted by: Neofunk at April 14, 2009 4:41 PM

→ 254. Posted by: GAY at April 14, 2009 1:15 PM
I think Rousseau said that when they snached alex , there was smoke rising in the distance . When she faked the Aeron kidnapping ,she set a tyre on fire to make it look like the others were coming.I dont know if that was the meaning of two smoke monsters.

#260. Posted by: gmtdefector at April 14, 2009 4:48 PM

#251

Cecil,

I believe that women can't conceive due to the all famous incident that has been mentioned in past seasons. Whatever took place during that event caused a major change in the island. Let's hope that the producers decide to answer that question during this season.

#261. Posted by: Michaelmvp at April 14, 2009 5:04 PM

@-259 neofunk,
re: the next episode title, im just glad its not called "some like it hoff" with david hasselhoff as the dharma resident lifeguard who has a vw camper van which responds to voice command, - doesnt bare thinking about!!

#262. Posted by: san at April 14, 2009 6:27 PM

D&C said in the podcast that the next epi provides a little levity before the intense wrap up of the season. It should be fun. Is it Wednesday yet?

#263. Posted by: lost2theworld at April 14, 2009 8:11 PM

→ 252. welh: "Are you suggesting "another" plane crash to get Aaron and Desmond to the island to fulfill the past vision?"

As for Desmond, I could envision him (intentionally or not) coming back to the island via boat- it has a nice symmetry to it.

For the first few years, we spent a lot of time speculating on the role Walt and Aaron would have in the Lost universe. Now they seem to be non-factors in current island events- certainly there was no attempt to bring them back to the island the second time around.

As for Des' vision of Aaron and Claire, maybe it will still come true, but there's just as good a chance that he was mistaken and actually saw Kate and Aaron, or that he deliberately lied to manipulate Charlie to the Looking Glass. Who knows?

re: posts 256 & 257: The idea of Paulikki as Adam and Eve is a creative idea I have never even thought of before. The fact that two posters wrote it at the same time, is just plain "meteor hits Mr. Cluck" freaky.

→ 259. Neofunk: "The next episode is some like it Hoth.So maybe smokie is the egyptian moon God Thoth"

I agree that there appear to be more and more Egyptian connections as they show progresses, but I'd bet this refers to the planet Hoth, from Star Wars, not Thoth, the Egyptian figure.

D&C are big Star Wars fans, they often pepper Star Wars references in the dialogue, and there many parallels between Ben and Anakin-Darth and Locke and Obi-Wan.

From this week's podcast:

DAMON LINDELOF: "Some Like It Hoth". Our first--

CARLTON CUSE: Would that be a reference to...?

DAMON LINDELOF: Don't even say it.

CARLTON CUSE: Okay.

DAMON LINDELOF: You--you know what it's a reference to.

CARLTON CUSE: Okay.

DAMON LINDELOF: This is--this is, um, an episode that we are particularly proud of. The show needed just a little bit of fun.

On a completely different topic,but something we've wrestled with here- also from the podcast:

DAMON LINDELOF: --"Is it possible that Jack--

CARLTON CUSE: Yeah.

DAMON LINDELOF: "--actually caused Ben to become Ben--

CARLTON CUSE: Well...

DAMON LINDELOF: "--by deciding not to help him?"

CARLTON CUSE: I--I think that basically--the--I think what you--the way you have to think about it is, is there was a course of events, and maybe it was always preordained that Jack would decline to do the surgery, and that that was part of the course of things, in the same way that Kate was destined to take young Ben to the Others.

#264. Posted by: Mizzed at April 14, 2009 10:03 PM

@261 Michaelmvp speculated:

>#251 Cecil,

>I believe that women can't conceive due to the all famous incident that has been mentioned in past seasons. Whatever took place during that event caused a major change in the island. Let's hope that the producers decide to answer that question during this season.

But women can conceive on the island - they just die - along with their babies - around the end of the first trimester. At least according to Juliet.

#265. Posted by: Cecil Rose at April 15, 2009 1:00 AM

Adam and Eve - This is very dim memory but I remember on another blog hearing that TPTB directed folks to a written reference that contained an anagram of "Nadler" - Bernard and Rose's last name that pointed to them being Adam and Eve. I like the idea of Paulo and Nikki being unburied, though!

#266. Posted by: Glostover at April 15, 2009 9:02 AM

...that is as long as they stay dead....

#267. Posted by: Glostover at April 15, 2009 9:03 AM

Aside from the fairly obvious Star Wars reference, one might also assume a not-so-subtle reference to the great Marilyn Monroe/Tony Curtis/Jack Lemmon movie Some Like It Hot.

Now that is a damn funny movie with gangsters, cross-dressing, and an all-girl travelling band. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.

Ben and Hurley in makeup, wigs, and dresses...there's a visual I didn't need. Now I gotta go wash my retinas...

#268. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 15, 2009 9:15 AM

@ransomjackson: "Some Like it Hot" also has one of the *the* best final lines, ever.

#269. Posted by: mac at April 15, 2009 9:30 AM

Some like it Hoth...
Will there be Tauntauns in the polar bear cages this week?
Can't wait...TGIW!

#270. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 15, 2009 10:03 AM

→ 268. ransomjackson: "...a visual I didn't need":

Speaking of which...

→ 66. ransomjackson: "...Maybe Ben can't have kids (narrow urethra?), and that's why he's such a softie?"

coupled w/last season's discussion of Ben's whistling corduroys stalking away up the hill & ealgumby's helpful explanation of why geldings walk funny, led to a very scary visual in my own mind! Pass the retina wash, please... ; )

#271. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at April 15, 2009 10:10 AM

Mac,

“Well, nobody’s perfect!”

Maybe nobody's perfect, but that line was.

Alaïs (mittenzee umlau),

Maybe I shouldn't've used "narrow urethra" and "softie" in the same sentence...

Geldings walking funny...ah the good old days of purple-colored-sky days of yore...

Say hey to the Gumby ("I'm Gumby dammit!") for me. He's been kinda quiet lately.

Tonight's ep should be a hum-dinger. Anybody wanna take the over/under for SW references? I'll take 10.

#272. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 15, 2009 11:01 AM

Tonight's ep should be a hum-dinger. Anybody wanna take the over/under for SW references? I'll take 10.

→ 272. Posted by: ransomjackson


I'll say over 1--(counting the title of course!)

#273. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at April 15, 2009 11:07 AM

Since Hoth is a frozen planet, perhaps tonight we will learn more about the FDW....located in the Island's own Echo (Eko?) Base.

#274. Posted by: lovelost at April 15, 2009 1:39 PM

Not to be too mean, but Hurley is Jabba-esque.

And talk about your Daddy issues...

"Oh, by the way Luke, your daddy is the 2nd most reviled person in the galaxy. And you just macked with your twin sister."

There's a bad twin reference for ya...Boone and Shannon...bit of a stretch there I admit...

Up to five without even really trying...

#275. Posted by: ransomjackson at April 15, 2009 2:34 PM

i love the names given to some episodes,
"tricia tanaka is dead" springs to mind as one of the more unusual names for an episode, some episode names are easy enough to predict what we are about to see, - others are slightly more obscure,
which makes me curious about the 1 showing in the usa tonight.

#276. Posted by: san at April 15, 2009 5:38 PM


Was anyone else at all curious about the horse and the very Mongolian looking yurts? Who brought yurts?! Is that a Dharma horse?!

I don't know why, but for some reason my immediate thought when I heard "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" was Jughead. A team came to retrieve the nuclear material and brought special equipment on the plane (the box). They weren't sure who was and wasn't on the team, so they asked each other until they knew.

Speaking of docks...does anyone think this looks pretty far from water?
http://tinyurl.com/c6r2u8
I'm thinking MAYBE out 3 O'clock way...?

For Mac in case you haven't read it:
http://tinyurl.com/cnq7wq

#277. Posted by: caelum at April 15, 2009 7:40 PM

i wont see this new episode until friday,
i hope you all enjoy the new 1 tonight,
jacob said i could watch it 2 days later...hmm.. who am i to argue.

#278. Posted by: san at April 15, 2009 8:18 PM