The Lost Blog

Key Points from "Follow the Leader"

Season 5, Episode 15
Episode Air Date: 05/06/09

Point 1
Locke

Richard Alpert

Ben
Jacob might want to get up from that rocking chair and reinforce the cabin 'cause John Locke and his Other posse are bringing the pain.

Now who saw that one coming? Locke wants to kill Jacob? What?

Wait. WHAT?!

In addition to that jaw-dropper -- and its implications for next week's season finale -- this episode featured Obi-Locke at the height of his Jedi powers. Being murdered by a duplicitous bug-eyed maniac was the best thing that ever happened to Locke because now he communes directly with the island in ways Ben and Richard Alpert have never seen before.

Locke shows off his newfound skills (or skillz -- they're so awesome they deserve the "z") when he guides Alpert and Ben to the downed Beechcraft drug plane and tells Alpert that in exactly three minutes a man with a gunshot wound is going to stagger out of the treeline. Alpert must tend to the man's wound with the provided first aid kit -- which Locke of course has on hand -- and then, and this is the important bit, he must tell the guy that it's imperative he bring the Oceanic Six back to the island by any means necessary, including via the man's own death.

Sound familiar?

This is a mindblower. The island has told Obi-Locke the exact moment in time when wounded Locke -- the post-Donkey-Wheel / time-skipping Locke shot by Ethan -- will appear. This goes way, way beyond Locke's ability to predict island rainstorms. Now, he's master of the space-time continuum. It's man-island harmony incarnate.

Ben's jealousy is palpable. Somehow I doubt he's going to heed Ghost Alex's no-killing-Locke rule .

This episode's Locke segment also offered a brief glimpse into Richard Alpert's role. Ben tells Sun that Alpert is a "kind of adviser" and he's held that position "for a very, very long time." Alpert is a consigliere of sorts -- a behind-the-scenes guy who greases the skids for the island's Grand Poobah. But there are limits to Alpert's knowledge: he seems genuinely surprised at the appearance of wounded Locke, which suggests he's unaware of the island's time-skipping abilities, and Locke's resurrection revelation really throws him for a loop. Yet, we've also seen Alpert make independent decisions (bringing young Ben Linus into the temple), and back in 1954 it looked like he was acting as the island's interim leader. Who is this guy? Again, I hope the writers carve out at least one Alpert-centric episode in the sixth season, because his backstory is ripe with possibilities.

Point 2
Jack

Kate

Sayid

Eloise Hawking

Richard Alpert
Mr. Man of Science now peppers his language with words like "destiny" and "belief." Kate even goes so far as to compare Jack to Locke, and she somehow doesn't receive a swift smack across the face.

Jack's true-believer mission involves the messy fulfillment of Danny Faraday's final wish: change the future by blowing up Jughead ... and everyone else. Jack is a wee bit hazy on the how and why, but details were never his strong suit. Nonetheless, the sheer force of his belief is enough to gather up Eloise Hawking, Richard Alpert and Sayid in his wacky escapade.

Eloise's involvement is understandable because she discovers her own handwriting in Faraday's journal, and she reaches the unfortunate conclusion that yes, Faraday was her son, and yes, she just ruptured a handful of his most vital organs. When Jack presents the opportunity to erase this unsightly filicide from Eloise's permanent record, she goes for it.

Sayid joins up because Kate thwarted his own future-changing maneuver when she saved young Ben. And really, what else does is he going to do?

I have absolutely no idea why Richard Alpert volunteers, but maybe that's just his lot.

We learn that in the aftermath of Daniel Faraday's 1954 appearance, Eloise, Alpert and their Other brothers moved Jughead into the island's hieroglyph-laden catacombs. And in a bit of hydrogen-explosion irony, Dharma is unaware that it built New Otherton over Jughead's final resting place.

We saw a glimpse of the tunnel system in "Dead Is Dead" when Ben sought forgiveness from Smokey, but the views we see in this episode hint at a large network of tunnels sprawling beneath the island. Could these tunnels be the source of the whispers?

Point 3
Sawyer

Juliet

Miles

Hurley

Jin
I'm not sure what I think of Dr. Chang's sudden acceptance of time travel and visitors from the future. Granted, this is a guy who studies timelines, so he conceptually grasps the concept, but even the most rational physicist would be moderately unnerved upon meeting his 30-something son and his time-traveling companions. Nonetheless, Chang's acceptance of this information motivates him to heed Daniel Faraday's advice: get everyone off the damn island.

Concurrently, we watch as the Dharma dream officially ends for Sawyer and Juliet. The two endure a brief but violent inquisition at the hands of Radzinsky and beady-eyed Phil, but the fun ends when Sawyer makes a deal: he and Juliet get seats on the evacuation submarine in exchange for the exact location of the Hostiles' camp. Radzinksy and company accept, and for a brief moment it looks like Sawyer and Juliet are off to live out their lives in Swingtown. But then Kate shows up (then again ... that doesn't necessarily eliminate Swingtown). She's been re-captured by Dharma and ordered off the island. Juliet's icy stare threatens the sub's structural integrity.

So we know that Juliet, Sawyer and Kate are locked up in the submerged submarine, but Hurley, Jin and Miles are all still hiding in the bushes outside New Otherton. What's in store for this trio?

Point 4
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "All right dude, we're from the future. Sorry." -- Hurley to Dr. Chang after failing Chang's impromptu quiz.

  • Second Best Line: "We'll buy Microsoft and we'll bet the cowboys in the '78 Super Bowl. We're gonna be rich." -- Sawyer, summoning the spirit of Biff Tannen.
  • Third Best Line: " ... since when did shooting kids and blowing up hydrogen bombs become okay?" -- An unusually astute point from Kate.
  • Fourth Best Line: "If this works, you might just save us all. And if it doesn't, at least you'll put us out of our misery." -- Sayid, latching on to the silver lining in Jack's "blow up the bomb" plan.
  • Charles Widmore ('77 version) doesn't have much of a role in this episode, but one brief line of dialogue suggests something very big is on the horizon: Looking at Faraday's body, Widmore says he looks familiar. But where does this familiarity come from? If I remember correctly (and I might not ... so this whole point could be moot), Faraday and Widmore did not cross paths in 1954. Young Eloise and Faraday were out by Jughead when young Widmore returned to camp. Could '77 Widmore's recognition be a hint that events can change? Will Jughead's (presumed) explosion allow Faraday and Widmore to cross paths, pre-'77?
  • We learn in this episode that one group of circa-2007 Others is living on the beach and another is holed up in the Temple. Why are they separated? And along those lines, who the hell are these people? Are they island descendants? Are they hand-picked by Jacob?
  • I'm beginning to think "the incident" refers not to the hydrogen bomb, but to the violent ball of rage Sun will unleash when she discovers Locke's true plan. Sun somehow absorbed Alpert's revelation that he watched all the '77 Dharma drones die -- including Jack, Hurley, Jin et. al -- with relative calm, but we know that's not going to last.
  • I wonder if there's a connection between the "three minutes" of lead time Alpert has before wounded Locke appears and the three minutes of reunion time alloted Michael and Walt way back in the season two episode, "Three Minutes." I'm probably reaching, but that episode title always seemed oddly specific.
  • The "Lost" crew rarely violates suspension of disbelief, but someone needs to upgrade the CG department's Transportation Vehicle plugin. The only thing cheesier than this episode's "sub departure" was the Ajira 316 crash landing.
  • A word of caution for the anti-spoiler contingent: be very careful in your "Lost"-related Web surfing over the next week. Detailed finale plot plot points for seasons three and four surfaced in the days before their respective airdates, and I imagine the same will happen for season five.

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"The Incident" -- Season 5 finale! Airs Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

shikotee is first!!!!

I am the variable, VS the constant!!!

Woopetty woop!!!!!

#1. Posted by: shikotee at May 7, 2009 12:05 AM

FIRST!!! Great review Mac! This is the best show ever and your reviews rock!

#2. Posted by: The Kid at May 7, 2009 12:05 AM

hi, hello, I hate Juliet, I want Skate

#3. Posted by: sheyla at May 7, 2009 12:07 AM

Actually, I'm 2nd! By the way, I hate you shikotee!

#4. Posted by: The Kid at May 7, 2009 12:07 AM

GRAA Mac!!!

1. Still don't get why Jack is so obsessed with avoiding the crash.
2. I hate Jack.
3. Sawyer and Juliet are SOO MUCH BETTER than Kate and Sawyer/Kate and Jack/Juliet and Jack/Sawyer and Jack. Ha.
4. Chang + Miles = Cute.
5. Kate needs to get hit by an oar.
6. Ben is amazingly awesome and cool. Lol.
7. Locke's going to be a PROBLEM!

Every time Locke does that creepy smile, I feel like it's forshadowing something creepy.

Pointless post. There would have been more point if I wasn't so tired.

Be back later!

#5. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 7, 2009 12:24 AM

GRAA Mac!
I certainly agree, the CGI of the sub was on the caliber of the original Sinbad movies, Silent Running, or Logan's Run. Man it was bad. I was genuinely surprised that Danial was dead. I figured he was 'mostly dead.' I was also shocked that Sayid did not know that he did not kill Ben. He really needs to work on those assassin skills.

#6. Posted by: onelostdude at May 7, 2009 12:25 AM

Awwwwww....

But I love you Kid!!!!

Just some quick quirks....

Damn! Horace was totally not the man in charge of things! I found that kind of weird. Why was crazy Radzinksy giving the beatings? What happened to their sugar cube interrogation specialist Darryl?

Is it me, or was Sun extra useless in this episode? She's like Claire from last season - just kinda there!

Seems like a Jack/Kate reunion is gonzo. Nothing says love like erasing your history! Juliette - Watch your back girl!!! Kate is on the prowl!!!

#7. Posted by: shikotee at May 7, 2009 12:25 AM

By the way -- Loved the episode. AND loved how we saw a lot of Richard this episode. I was hoping it would be Richard-centric when they first showed him, but it wasn't.

#8. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 7, 2009 12:31 AM

Has anyone said anything about the years being in threes as well as the "three minutes"? It seems to come up all the time.

Great review Mac, especially "she reaches the unfortunate conclusion that yes, Faraday was her son, and yes, she just ruptured a handful of his most vital organs." HA!

Locke totally rocked in this episode!

As I posted last week, Jack seems to have taken some kind of personal responsibility for all deaths that occurred since the crash. He is a doctor (dammit!)and saving lives is what he's all about. I just wish he wouldn't cry so much!

I wonder if that awful CGI sub really gets to its destination...I bet something happens to it and there's our love triangle in handcuffs - will Sawyer be forced to choose to save one of the girls... sorry it's late and my mind is wandering!

#9. Posted by: Glostover at May 7, 2009 12:50 AM

Hello Everyone!

Long time reader first time poster... Mac thanks once again for a great recap!

Has anyone thought about the fact that when Alpert went to help Locke in the forest this meant that "old" Locke went into the future?? I was under the impression that the Losties were only flashing in the past... Does this signify anything?

#10. Posted by: LL at May 7, 2009 12:53 AM

Um ... kill Jacob?? I think expression on Ben's face summed up my feelings on that idea...What????

Note to Juliet: STAY ON THE SUB! This is your third chance to get off the island--it might be your last, just GO!

Wow. I'm not sure what's coming in the finale, but it looks like it should be good.

Thanks as always for the great review Mac!

@ 10. Posted by: LL

We knew they flashed to the future at least once because they found the Ajira Flight 316 water bottle in an outrigger. We didn't necessarily know that the "Locke/Alpert bullet removal flash" was future, but we knew there was at least one future flash.

#11. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at May 7, 2009 1:13 AM

Nicely Done, Mac!

LOL at "Juliet's icy stare threatens the sub's structural integrity." Just when the Suliet crowd starts sighing and hugging e/o Kate climbs down to crash the party!

A few bleeps of my own:

Didn't Twitchy say the bomb was leaking back in 1954? Shouldn't there be a bombload of radiation in that cave? Yuck.

And doesn't Smokey lurk down in the tunnels? Eloise and Richard don't seem concerned. We haven't seen it in 1977 yet, tho someone mentioned last week that the Sonic Fence is prolly an anti-monster measure, since it certainly doesn't keep out the Hostiles.

Loved Locke's death makeover, but also loved Ben's various guilty, envious, shocked, and conspiratorial stares. And it's interesting to see Richard set off balance.

Kill Jacob? Really? Is he even alive?

#12. Posted by: freckles at May 7, 2009 1:24 AM

Oh, and I'd love to stick my thumbs in Radzinski's eyeballs while crushing his glasses under my heel! What a tool.

#13. Posted by: freckles at May 7, 2009 1:29 AM

The 3's are becoming a recurring thing.
As posted above, the 3 minute times.
Three years in 74-77.
Three years for the O6 off island.
30 years 1977 to 2007.
3 minutes, 3 years, 30 years, what's the diff when you can time travel!

#14. Posted by: mtncbn at May 7, 2009 1:30 AM

A few thoughts on Kate...

In last week's episode it was Kate's idea to get guns before they trekked out to find Faraday's mom. This resulted in the shoot out and then later resulted in Faraday walking into the Others' camp brandishing a weapon and subsequently being shot.

This week Kate seems to be bent on foiling Jack's plan to follow through on Faraday's idea to detonate the bomb.

Kate is also the one who saved little Ben. She seems to be single-handedly un-doing everyone's efforts to change the future (by changing the past). Do you think this is deliberate on her part? Or is it simply a case of WHH?

#15. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at May 7, 2009 1:44 AM

→ 15. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost

I doubt Kate's motivations run so deep as to be deliberately course-correcting the future. She's just being contrary, like she always is.

#16. Posted by: freckles at May 7, 2009 1:53 AM

Perhaps Locke wants to set Jacob free by killing him? Jacob did say "Help me" to Locke when they last met.

#17. Posted by: freckles at May 7, 2009 2:00 AM

Refelcting on the 3's mentioned.

The main character groups are all split up into 3s at the end of this episode.
Kate/Juliet/Sawyer
Jack/Sayid/Eloise
Hurley/Miles/Jin
Locke/Ben/Sun

#18. Posted by: Chris at May 7, 2009 2:21 AM

"The 3's are becoming a recurring thing.
As posted above, the 3 minute times.
Three years in 74-77.
Three years for the O6 off island.
30 years 1977 to 2007.
3 minutes, 3 years, 30 years, what's the diff when you can time travel!?
→ 14. Posted by: mtncbn

Yes, thanks for getting my back, mtncbn!

"Didn't Twitchy say the bomb was leaking back in 1954? Shouldn't there be a bombload of radiation in that cave? Yuck."
→ 12. Posted by: freckles

Looks like Mrs. Chang got a dose of that radiation, eh, judging from the on-the-level-of-the-CG-sub wig she was sporting on her deathbed. Ditto on Radzinsky. How delicious to know his unhappy fate (unless of course now they've gone and changed it).

On the ARRGH scale tonight, I had to tape the episode and like a dweeb mistimed it, so it cut off just when Locke says he doesn't want to "find his people..." AAARGH!


#19. Posted by: Glostover at May 7, 2009 3:26 AM

__Perhaps Locke wants to set Jacob free by killing him? Jacob did say "Help me" to Locke when they last met.
→ 17. Posted by: freckles at May 7, 2009 2:00 AM

aahh! yes! Locke saying he was going to kill Jacob was a jaw-dropper for me. but it really could be to "free him." i like that idea. don't know if Locke is being a true leader or a loose cannon. finding out will be interesting. a bit strange to see further development of the whole "Alpert doesn't know as much as we think he does" angle. seems more in the dark about things than i expected.

Ben is definitely gonna try to kill Locke again...

Sun just might try to kill Locke when she finds out he's been lying to her...

Maybe the "incident" is Juliet's head exploding and killing everyone over her "Kate frustration"...

#20. Posted by: robertjobert at May 7, 2009 3:43 AM

few things that kindda bugged me:
1. why does locke actually have to show alpert when the "wounded man" is coming out of the drug plane??? i really didnt get that part. ugh!
2. what the heck happened to the Aijira passengers that were left back (or future) in 2007?? we have not seen , heard much of those dudes.
3. Kate is annoying as ever
And a few personal notes:
It was finally time that Jack got his balls back and started doing something else than acting apathetically in the background.
Sawyer and Sayid rock man!! i wish Sawyer actually bought stocks in microsoft and became the next Widmore or something. he buys Sayid his very own mercenary camp in somalia. HA!
Locke is definitely one of the weirdest characters ever encountered in a show, creepy but still kindda obi wan coolesque characteristic to him..
Thanks for the recap Mac. and see ya next week.

#21. Posted by: mapache at May 7, 2009 4:33 AM

BTW it WOULD be awesome to see a face to face between the infamous Jacob and Master Locke.... now that would put a lot of things into perspective. HA!

#22. Posted by: mapache at May 7, 2009 4:39 AM

this was a great episode and great recap.

Lost is not really a funny show, but when Hurley gave in and didnt know the answers I was LOL (in the lounge in the airport with the headset on)

Widmore probaby thinks Daniel looks familiar because its his son and looks like him...

I hate it when they start explaining something and we dont get to actually hear it, like after all these years you get to actually sit with RA, ask him a million questions until you are satisfied.

The submarine reminded me the movie with the incredible heroes or something, I think it was captain Nemo there....

Anyway cant wait for next episode... have fun.

#23. Posted by: maimon at May 7, 2009 6:33 AM

@freckles, #12: Regarding the bomb leaking, when we saw it on this episode, the bomb looked like it had some kind of solder on it on a small spot--like they used some kind of silvery metal to plug the leak.

Check out this screenshot for the silvery solder: http://tinyurl.com/cvhnpj

#24. Posted by: Gabriel at May 7, 2009 6:54 AM

Too cruel... the gun shot that was meant for Kate isn't actually meant for Kate. Sayid- what were you thinking? We could have gotten rid of her!

#25. Posted by: lardiea at May 7, 2009 7:25 AM

I don't know if anyone noticed in the scene where '77 Widmore is privately speaking to '77 Hawking over Daniel's body, you can see Widmore placing his hand over Eloise's midsection rather suggestively. It could be that she is already pregnant with Daniel. The math works out -- 2008 minus 1978 (the year Daniel will be born) = 30 years, plausibly Daniel's age.

#26. Posted by: cmileham at May 7, 2009 7:44 AM

With all the time traveling and paradoxes that is happening in this show i wouldn't be surprised if Jacob turned out to be a time traveling Locke whose stuck in a time loop.

#27. Posted by: thev01 at May 7, 2009 7:53 AM

Quick feedback:

1) loved your review Mac! Great job yet again.

2) Loved Chang's questioning of Hurley.

3) I still believe Faraday's "what ever happended" position, so this bomb is going to end up causing the "incident" all along.

4) I think Charles Widmore said that Faraday looked familiar simply because Faraday is his son.

5) I think Richard didn't really see the Losties die back in '77 -- but thinks that they did. Most likely, they will end up time traveling to the present day in 2007 so that Jin and Sun can have their emotional reunion -- just like we saw last year with Penny and Desmond.

6) I wish I didn't watch the preview for next week because it ruined the drama about the (terrible) CGI sub leaving the island at the end of this one.

7) So, how did they get the bomb underground? Did smokey help?

#28. Posted by: Marty at May 7, 2009 8:02 AM

As far as Locke going to kill Jacob -- Isn't Jacob like a spirit, sitting in that rocking chair, but not everyone can see him. Locke can see him, could Ben? How do you kill something that is a spirit or an entity. We have no indication that Jacob is a living, breathing person.

#29. Posted by: Renee at May 7, 2009 8:47 AM

@ 26 cmileham - You're spot on correct.

Chucky put his hands on Ellie's belly and whispered something about "her condition." She's clearly pregnant as any parent-to-be would attest. But Ellie knows that if everything is set to right then she'll never have killed her son.

What puzzles me is how would Daniel know that setting off the bomb changes things? Maybe NOT setting off the bomb would change things.

Like in the ST:TNG episode where they keep crashing into the other Enterprise until Data sends his future self a simple message of...wait for it...three...meaning the insignia on Riker's collar, implying that they should follow Riker's idea, and not Picard's.

#30. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 7, 2009 8:47 AM

So who was the leader for the three years Locke wasn't there? Richard was quick to let Locke be the leader "again".

Don't you think that they would keep tabs on the people that get off-island?

I'm loving where the story is going, but I don't understand why Richard is so submissive.

#31. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 7, 2009 8:48 AM

I think that the first Richard scene where he is completing his boat in the glass bottle is very very very important. I honestly believe that Richard came over on the Black Rock. That is the only explanation I can come up with. I think the producers were giving us a major hint by showing that scene. Richard was creating something sentimental as a reminder of his past.

I also agree that Ellie is pregnant with Daniel back in 1977.

SPOILER ALERT:


If anyone watched the trailer for next weeks season finale right after last nights episode, you notice that Sawyer, Juilet and Kate are somehow back on the Island. It's safe to say that they dont get off!!!

#32. Posted by: MichaelMVP at May 7, 2009 8:50 AM

Surely others here see the parallels between Locke's story and the Biblical story of Jesus?!! Jesus had to die in order to save others, was in the grave for 3 days, then was resurrected. Though not exclusively, surely Locke is intended to be a messianic figure.

#33. Posted by: jk at May 7, 2009 8:53 AM

And how exactly did they get that h-bomb down there? I don't know that Obi-Locke's Jedi mind control levitating abilities have come that far. It's not like that thing is an X-wing.

"Do. Or do not. There is no try."

#34. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 7, 2009 8:57 AM

So why couldn't they save Danny?
Or why did they decide not to?

#35. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 7, 2009 9:02 AM

some annoying points from the episode:

1. Besides the bad sub CG, the mere fact that the submarine dived a few yards from the dock makes no sense; it would ground itself before it left the cove.

2. The plot time line is off: a) Locke shot by Ethan, b) RA comes out of jungle to fix Locke's wound and tells him he has to bring everyone back and die, c) Locke then FDW off-island, d) he dies, e) he is reincarnated on the island, f) he leads RA and Ben into the jungle, g) to tell RA for the first time to fix the wounded man (Locke). In order for RA to be told what to do by Locke (point g), Locke had to be already dead the first time (point a).

#36. Posted by: welh at May 7, 2009 9:18 AM

Sorry Mac, my fave line was "That must be some out of body experience." That whole scene with Locke & Ben had me in hysterics.

When Ben first arrived, I was annoyed that it was so obvious how he manipulated Locke. Locke fell for tricks that a 10 yr old could have played. But it is now a nice counterpoint to his newly acquired powers.

#37. Posted by: hurling at May 7, 2009 9:21 AM

another annoying point:

Besides the bad soap opera context of Kate being dropped into the sub's Bermuda shorts triangle, I don't believe it was possible, in real time, to get through the jungle backto the Dharma compound and on the sub.

#38. Posted by: welh at May 7, 2009 9:24 AM

I just love the way Locke is pushing Ben's (and now Richard's) buttons!

And what is better than Hurley trying to take Dr. Chang's test. HA!!!!!

But why did John reveal his plan to kill Jacob to Ben? Doesn't he know by now that Ben is a scheming liar? Or maybe he needs Ben and Richard to conspire against him to be able to get to Jacob. Not to mention Sun finding out he is lying. Yikes!

I don't know, but I do know that I can't wait for next week's episode.

#39. Posted by: mybrainhurts at May 7, 2009 9:31 AM

What I want to know is - will Sawyer ask the sub's captain to marry Sawyer and Juliet (Kate for Maid of honor?) - shortly before the sub runs into the floating torpedo? (or the odd H-Bomb?)
___________________

BTW, like Lyle Lovett - I Love Everybody.

#40. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 7, 2009 9:32 AM

Great MAc

Episode OKAY--- I got "spoiled" too much too---- going to definitely avoid all that this week.

How can anyone not taking 6 months research and being an expert blow up a 25 year old H bomb? They are pushing it there.

Still, Richard probably sees "an incident" (not the H bomb), assumes everyone is dead on the Island and moves on. I think Jack, Syide, Jin, Hurley & Miles will "flash" and go back to 2008.

#41. Posted by: Bus Said at May 7, 2009 9:32 AM

What struck me as important was at the end when the posse was heading out to Jacob's crib and Ben and Richard agreed that "john might be a problem". Kinda sounds like they are still together in their plans. Anyone else take notice of this?

#42. Posted by: PertAndSpecial at May 7, 2009 9:32 AM

I love ilovebenjaminlinusxx
\
Ben & Richard are AFRAID of Jacob-- all fearing him for so many years, Ben using that fear to get what he wants----

Jacob is the bad guy!!!! WOW

#43. Posted by: Bus Said at May 7, 2009 9:59 AM

I recall that when we first saw Richard Alpert tend to Locke's wounds by the plan a few episodes back, Richard also gave Locke the compass and said, "The next time you see me, I won't recognize you". Is my memory correct? If this is the case, then Alpert really does know more than he's letting on with Locke and Ben. In last night's episode it seemed he was clueless, but I don't know...

@27/thev01
With all the time traveling and paradoxes that is happening in this show i wouldn't be surprised if Jacob turned out to be a time traveling Locke whose stuck in a time loop.

I have thought this myself and this may be the reason why Locke has to kill Jacob, because Locke is now here in the "dead" flesh, realizing he was Jacob all along.

When Richard tells Sun he watched them all die in 77, I believe they did die. But now they are "back" to change all that, so they won't be dying after all.

#44. Posted by: BEMH at May 7, 2009 10:06 AM

Ay carumba, I feel bad for commenting on the appearance of one eloise hawking last week..I knew she was a little cutie back in the day, but had no idea she was the h bomb diggity in her 30's. Shes got amounts where in counts..more curves than San Fran side street. Kudos to you Charles Widmore....good show, Kate is annoying...the toggling b/w "i'm with you Jack/I'm not with you Jack" is weird and her "not everything has been bad".. since crashing on the island scene was just not believable.

#45. Posted by: Diggler at May 7, 2009 10:12 AM

Just to put this in everyone's head: say "Charles Widmore 77!" in the voice of the announcer on "Match Game 77!".
You're welcome.

@5/Ilovebenjaminlinusxxx: Jack is trying to 'heal' everything and bring back all the dead people. Doctor instinct?

@12/Freckles: Smoky presumably isn't in the tunnels because they are under Dharmaville and the sonic fence extends down(?). Eloise said that the bomb was in the tunnels under Dharma. I can't wait for the crew to show up with Jughead in Ben's closet!

@21/mapache: I think Locke is showing off to Richard and Ben in order to convince them of his leadership when he takes them to the coke plane.

@30/ransomjackson: I always hated that solution to the ST:TNG episode. Why didn't all the Data's determine that they were in the correct position?

@32/MichaelMVP: I agree with Richard as captain of the Black Rock. The compass would have been his trusty friend back in the days of sailing yore.

Also, Hugo needs to brush up on his American History! "Jimmy Carter!" I yelled at him in vain.

#46. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 7, 2009 10:17 AM

I think Ben and Richard might maybe have been in cahoots for some time, keeping their power and authority close to the vest, telling their people what THEY want using Jacob's name.

I think there is a Jacob, and I think Ben and Richard put that ring of ashes around Jacob's shack, and I think that Jacob has to die (get "Locke-ed" so to speak) for him to "come back to life" just like Locke did.

And I think the island wants this to happen and is gonna open up a badly-cg'ed-sub-size can of whup-ass on Ben and Richard.

#47. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 7, 2009 10:17 AM

@ Diggler: Agreed...Eloise is hot as heck in all aspects (outside of the granny years). I'd do her....then time jump my ars right outta there to avoid any awkwardness.

I can't remember any other shows that have had a character like Jacob that basically has been an 'unknown' for approx 4 seasons or so. That's a pretty tall feat.....but the payoff better be f'n good.

#48. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 7, 2009 10:20 AM

@ Mac
I think Widmore said that Daniel looked familiar not because he had seen him before but because he is his son, therefore he probably resembled someone in his family. Cheesy, maybe, pointless, probably. But to have it go from that to him touching Ellie on the stomach in a protective way may have been telling. Although I think I am getting to the point where I see "something" in everything, when really it is probably nothing.
Anyway, great review. I always read something I missed while watching. Thanks!

#49. Posted by: Amy R at May 7, 2009 10:21 AM

I think we should all give poor Kate a break. I would be pretty ticked off if the man I was engaged to at one time and love/loved was all excited about changing the past b/c it "sucked"! At this point I am rooting for Kate (but not with Sawyer--I like Juliet). At least Kate is sad about the thought that erasing all of the last 3 years erases major parts of her life. Then again maybe she doesn't want everything to happen b/c she knows if all is fixed then 815 lands in LA and she goes to JAIL!!!

Love Locke!! Love Ben and Richard!!!

Wow that's quite a network of underground tunnels. It now leads me to believe that that is how the others get past the sonic fence--they have all kinds of entry/exit points from down below. Why do these people continue to live in tents????????

#50. Posted by: benlinusrocks at May 7, 2009 10:39 AM

Loved the review as always Mac, thanks.

What if Jacob is not a person, but a 'thing'...like the island consciousness itself? That would mean Locke has been communicating with Jacob while not realizing it. Ben and Alpert might be taking Locke and the Other crew to the place where they communicate with Jacob when necessary, but that's as far as it'll go. Since Jacob might not even be a physical entity that can be killed in the human sense.

I just hope that one way or another the Jacob mystery is resolved during the season finale...I'm tired of waiting and don't want to wait until next season!

BTW...no matter what happens, Sawyer would be a damn fool to give up Juliet and the potential for their future together because of Kate.

#51. Posted by: JoePike at May 7, 2009 10:48 AM

I am still in the Whatever Happened Happened camp, partly because when I try to get my mind around them changing the past I get even more confussed then when I try to understand WHH (or is it WEHH). If they change the future so their plane doesn't crash then nothing that happened so far on the show actually happened (except pre-1st crash flashbacks) which seems would include anything they do to change things so they don't crash. So if they change things so they don't crash they won't end up in 1977 to change things so they don't crash or something like that.

#52. Posted by: Sue at May 7, 2009 11:05 AM

@ Red Neck Man and Diggler:

It may be because it's springtime, but at this point the only men on the show I would NOT do are:
Daniel
Jacob
Mr. Paik
Any Dharma men besides the Losties
Jack's grandad
Anyone under 18
I'd consider Ben, in a pinch. It's clear he is a perfectionist and would do research.

@Freckles re mercy killing of Jacob
@Pert and Special re Ben and Richard in cahoots
@ransomjackson re Ellie preggers
*ding**ding**ding* Good call!!

#53. Posted by: Glostover at May 7, 2009 11:16 AM

I'm not entirely clear on why they would WANT their old lives back. None of them really have much of anything to look forward to.

Sawyer the conman killed an innocent guy, Jack's wife ran out on him, Kate's going to jail for blowing up step-daddy, Sun & Jin's marriage breaking up (infidelity), Locke in a wheelchair, Rose (WTHIR?) was dying of cancer, and so on and so on.

And do Michael and WAAAAAAAAAlt return? To what? Their dysfunctional relationship?

So why bother going back? What's the appeal? What am I missing?

We do get back Nikki (and Paolo too I s'pose), so I guess it's not a total loss.

#54. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 7, 2009 11:22 AM

Finale 5/13 8/7c

#55. Posted by: lostsox at May 7, 2009 11:29 AM

Thanks for the recap, Mac.

To me, Kate is the only one MAKING SENSE. Is it me, or do others think Jack's elaborate plan is THE WRONG PATH!

It's the antithesis of the show's theme! Jack wants to simply reboot and wipe everything away. It seems a much too simple and easy way out. How many of us have wished, "Jeez, I just want to start over fresh?" But that's a cop-out! It denies the rich history and life experiences that we've gained.

LOL, sorry, I got all philosophical.

Regarding Jacob, I've had one theory for a while: The first time we met him, he said, "Help Me!". And then, we never saw Jacob again. We saw Ghost-Christian. Everyone has assumed that Ghost-Christian is like Jacob's butler or something. What if Ghost-Christian has "taken over" or usurped Jacob??!! What if "Help Me" really meant HELP ME!!!!?

Also, I think Jacob is a real person, and I wonder if --- much like other LOST characters who get their own "special episodes" before they die -- the finale will be Jacob's "special episode" with flashbacks on how he got into that cabin!!!?

Finally, I used to think the atom bomb lied in the shadow of the statue. But last night we found out the atom bomb lies underneath Dharmaville.

So WHAT LIES IN THE SHADOW OF THE STATUE???

#56. Posted by: DCDude at May 7, 2009 11:35 AM

woo hoo! first post!

#57. Posted by: DMSJR at May 7, 2009 11:35 AM

Felt a little let down by this episode. Love all the shows of course so probably need to cut the TPTB writers a little slack since they were working obviously in JJA warp speed. Scotty, I need more Paaawwwa.

Makeup: From scene to scene it changes. LaFleur (beat to a pulp) looked pretty good (maybe an hour later) going to the sub. Jack after being cold cocked by a rifle and after a full french kiss with Widmore's boot also rebounded pretty well. Island healing powers at work again.

CG effects: Yeah that Sub diving reminded me of the rubber band powered subs you played with in the bath tub.

Lowlights: Agree with an earlier post, Sun is an annoying bystander. The interns must be writing her lines these days. And good for Kate to have drunk the cool-aid to volunteer to be the token Pain in the A.

Highlights: Locke running the show. Certainly hope the S5 ep final lives up to where they seem to be taking us.

...and Yes, 30's Eloise!

#58. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 7, 2009 11:36 AM

DID ANYONE ELSE NOTICE?

Last night during the commercial break, a few images pop up in a black screen, then the voice over saying "just because you saw it doesn't mean it happened" then on the screen in white type "What did you see?"

There was one similar to it last week but I didn't think too much about it - just thought it was a promo for another show.

I think it's related to LOST - TPTB are gearing us up for an ending that says, it really didn't happen?!?

#59. Posted by: Lost @ work at May 7, 2009 11:44 AM

@ 56/DCDude: what lies in the shadow of the statue?

I still believe it's The Valley of the Kings.

#60. Posted by: welh at May 7, 2009 11:58 AM

So Kate came back to bring back Claire? She hasn't asked about her once!

What would be Juliet's fate if they changed the past? Would she still be recruited to Dharma, or will they get wiped out?

@53/Glostover
A little TOO much information, but you would do Jacob over Daniel? Now that's a blind date.

@57/DMSJR re: first post. ROFL!!!

#61. Posted by: BEMH at May 7, 2009 12:17 PM

Long time reader....first time poster. Always love the recaps.
Thought the best line was Hurley to Chang...."we asked you first".

#62. Posted by: Zadra at May 7, 2009 12:18 PM

→ 62. Posted by: Zadra

Yeah. Great line from Hurley "we asked you first". In fact the whole pop quiz from Chang to Hurley might have been the best comedy relief segment of the entire series.

#63. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 7, 2009 12:24 PM

DCDude - I think Jacob is a real person

If he's a real person, why can't everyone see him? Including us

#64. Posted by: Renee at May 7, 2009 12:27 PM

Okay, so this might be so far-fetched it is crazy, but does anyone else think that the reason the show is so tied to ancient Egyptian stuff, etc., is to bring in the idea of aliens? We've all heard those theories about the pyramids being built by aliens. Here's a pretty fun(ny) link to "evidence" about that: http://www.outerworlds.com/likeness/aliens/aliens.html

For quite awhile I've been curious about some of the rather advanced and/or mystical bits of Lost that can't be explained by our own technology and/or knowledge base, which always seemed to hint to me of advanced or future knowledge...or maybe other worldly knowledge.

Of course, the time travel thing could explain some of that, too, since you could bring back technology back to the past if you can hop to the future. Still...I feel like the ancient Egypt link is very important.

So...maybe I'm crazy...but thought I'd throw it out there.

And Mac, your recaps are always terrific!

#65. Posted by: bocgirl at May 7, 2009 12:36 PM

Lost @ work #59;
http://flashforwardtv.com

What if you were shown a glimpse of your future, but didn't like what you saw? How hard would you fight and what would you sacrifice to keep it from coming true? When an unexplained, cataclysmic event knocks out the entire population of the world at the exact same moment, for two minutes and 17 seconds, everyone will see a glimpse of their own future.

This is a new TV show for ABC -

#66. Posted by: grapekat at May 7, 2009 12:36 PM

I would be remiss if I didn't mention this. What happens when a Hydrogen bomb is detonated in close proximity to a magnetic energy so large that it can alter the space-time continuum? I don't think whoever has the stones to set the timer on that one could get far enough away. Potential planet killer, I say.

#67. Posted by: cmileham at May 7, 2009 12:47 PM

GRAA Mac.
My thoughts on the last nights show. Wow! I cheered when I thought that Kate was shot and then I screamed in pain.

I believe that Locke is trying to kill Jacob b/c he wants the Others to only follow him and not both of them.

Survival of the Leaders.

#68. Posted by: AbeFroman at May 7, 2009 12:51 PM

"I recall that when we first saw Richard Alpert tend to Locke's wounds by the plan a few episodes back, Richard also gave Locke the compass and said, "The next time you see me, I won't recognize you". Is my memory correct? If this is the case, then Alpert really does know more than he's letting on with Locke and Ben. In last night's episode it seemed he was clueless, but I don't know..."
ok, but didn't locke next see alpert in '50s otherville? he showed him the compass and told richard he was the leader. then richie went and checked on young john back in the states. we need more linear recap shows to remind folks... i liked the way this ep built on eloise hawkins' backstory a bit..we got to see her in action, preggers and all. so daniel died before he was born, but not before he was conceived. brilliant!

#69. Posted by: captain nemo at May 7, 2009 12:57 PM

@BEHM #61 -- True that Kate has not asked about Claire, but then again, she is in the 70's and probably thinks that Claire (or Claire's spirit) is with the other losties.

I miss Rose! not so much Bernard, but Rose! Where are they? Yes, I know some think they are the people in the cave, but where are they NOW!?!?!!?!?

*sigh*

#70. Posted by: we're all lost at May 7, 2009 1:04 PM

Okay, this is just goofy, but hey, that never stopped me before.

Is it possible that it's more than just a coincidence that Follow The Leader (FTL) has the same acronym as Faster Than Light? And FTL speed is what is commonly considered to be required for time travel.

And boy o boy did Jack and Sawyer's faces heal quickly after their erspective smackdowns. Island healing or bad makeup - you decide.

#71. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 7, 2009 1:33 PM

@#71. Or FTL = Fruit of the Loom.

tee hee.

#72. Posted by: DCDude at May 7, 2009 1:43 PM

Possible that in dying Locke connected with the real good guys (i.e. angels, spirits of the island) and learned that Richard and Jacob are evil and the real bad guys of this situation. Richard's complexion comments and Egyptian god references may be truthful, maybe he is one in the same...or he is a manifestation of Smokey, hence the sharp clothes and casual air about him. Have Smokey and Richard ever been seen in the same room together?

#73. Posted by: CCBoston at May 7, 2009 1:44 PM

→ 26. Posted by: cmileham at May 7, 2009 7:44 AM
I don't know if anyone noticed in the scene where '77 Widmore is privately speaking to '77 Hawking over Daniel's body, you can see Widmore placing his hand over Eloise's midsection rather suggestively. It could be that she is already pregnant with Daniel. The math works out -- 2008 minus 1978 (the year Daniel will be born) = 30 years, plausibly Daniel's age.

If Ellie is prego with Daniel, then that means that Charlotte was a cougar b/c she’s about 5 or 6 when Daniel is in utero. Would be a wonderful twist if Daniel is already born, but she’s actually prego with Penny… and the child that Widmore fathered off the island was one of the other losties!! Maybe they’re leading us to believe Penny was born off island as a trick.

#74. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2009 1:48 PM

→ 42. Posted by: PertAndSpecial
What struck me as important was at the end when the posse was heading out to Jacob's crib and Ben and Richard agreed that "john might be a problem". Kinda sounds like they are still together in their plans. Anyone else take notice of this?

Yes, I noticed. I wonder if Ben and Richard have a bigger plan than what they’re letting on. I feel like Richard is doing a lot of “acting” surprised. I think it’s part of an elaborate plan and I think that they’re definitely working together…..possibly to trick and manipulate Locke into something. RA is very hesitant to take Locke to see Jacob. I think we’ll find out why next week!!

#75. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2009 1:52 PM

Richard says to Locke, "You look different...." what do you think that's all about? does Locke look like the "walking dead" or somethign? is RA psychic, too?!

#76. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2009 1:54 PM

I don't understand why The Others can save Ben but not Daniel, and not that other guy who got shot by Sayid. Also don't understand why The Others didn't recognize Kate when she was only there a few days ago to drop Ben off at summer camp?

#77. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2009 1:57 PM

So, Ellie remembers Daniel fooming away in 1954, it's a clear memory for her. The memory started in 1954 and existed every year thereafter and she talks about it to Jack in 1977....... Back to Rousseau and Jin. If the memories of people fooming away are there the WHOLE time and not suddenly remembered (like Desmond or Charlotte experienced) then Rousseau should have remembered Jin when she met him in 2004.

#78. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2009 2:01 PM

Can any one shed some light on where Young Ben is at this time?? We saw Richard take him into the temple, but now he's been gone for days and days.. He's certainly not back w Dharma. is he still down in the temple somewhere? is he at the camp w the others, bc we havent seen any sign of him there either.

#79. Posted by: vintaag at May 7, 2009 2:09 PM

What I never understood was why Eloise would be okay with the detonation of the bomb when it would kill her and an unborn Daniel? Wouldn’t she be dead? I know that the plane will not land like it is supposed to but it doesn’t just start all over again? 70’s Eloise hot as hell!! Loved the convo with Hurley and Chang when hurly said that he was born 1931 lmfao!

#80. Posted by: Deebo at May 7, 2009 2:14 PM

The Jughead was supposed to be buried under tons and tons of concrete to stop the leaking. Instead, they kept it in a tunnel underground? and the crack looks to be patched up too! doesn't make sense!

I don't like circular references, and Lost's time travel is ridden with circular references. The latest addition to bringing everyone back and Lock dying is actually initiated by Lock himself, which in turn is based on his past experience. Too many instances of same person also makes me sick about the time travel.

#81. Posted by: aj at May 7, 2009 2:41 PM

@36 - welh 2. "The plot time line is off: a) Locke shot by Ethan, b) RA comes out of jungle to fix Locke's wound and tells him he has to bring everyone back and die, c) Locke then FDW off-island, d) he dies, e) he is reincarnated on the island, f) he leads RA and Ben into the jungle, g) to tell RA for the first time to fix the wounded man (Locke). In order for RA to be told what to do by Locke (point g), Locke had to be already dead the first time (point a)."

a1) Locke shot by Ethan (sometime before 2004 when Ethan dies) a2) Locke flashes/disappears from Ethan - ends up in 2007. b1) Richard approaches wounded Locke in 2007. b2) Locke flashes/disappears from Richard - to 1954. c1) Locke flashes a few more times. c2) Locke turns FDW - not sure what year it was then. d1) Locke arrives in "real world" in 2007. d2) Locke dies e)resurrected f)Locke leads RA & Ben into jungle g) tells RA to fix wounded man.

Locke had died in 2007 when he told RA to help wounded Locke in 2007. Since wounded Locke flashed into the future (from 2004 to 2007) he was experiencing a future event, but it was during HIS present!

Remember that time has moved 3 years, but Locke has only "aged" several days. He spoke to Widmore in 1954 and again in 2007 and it had only been 3 days because of his time jumping!


#82. Posted by: GFish at May 7, 2009 3:07 PM

@36 welh-

From Locke's perspective:
1) Locke flashes back in time to 2004 (or before).
2) Ethan shoots Locke
3) Locke flashes to 2007
4) Locke is helped by Richard
5) Locke flashes to 1954 talks to Richard
6) Locke flashes around with Sawyer et al
7) Locke turns FDW
8) Locke lands in 2007 off-island, talks to Widmore.
9) Locke dies off-island
10) Locke returns to island & is resurrected
11) Locke leads Ben & RA to jungle
12) Locke knows his flashing past self will be at a certain point in time, tells RA to help him.

The whole circular part is what I don't quite fully understand. But somehow we are to believe that there is no "first time" something happened. Everything happens / happened the same way it has always happened or will happen.

New Locke always told RA to help wounded Locke in 2007. And New Locke had always already died off-island to tell RA to tell Locke what he needed to do.

#83. Posted by: GFish at May 7, 2009 3:12 PM

@74/Skipper
5 or 6 yrs makes Charlotte a cougar??? Oh, no, my friend, not unless Daniel is under 18 when he falls in love - which would be child molesting.
I'd put 15 yrs for the minimum for cougarhood, 25 if Daniel were over 50. Skipper, are you under 25?

@77 - Ben wasn't dead yet. Presumably, Daniel & the other guy died instantly. And the island is pretty capricious about who gets healed & who doesn't.

#84. Posted by: hurling at May 7, 2009 3:13 PM

Mac, I normally read and observe from the sidelines -- my preferred form of participation -- but needed to compliment you on your review this week. One of the best I've read in terms of creativity and humor. In the words of Paula and Randi, "brilliant" and "we've got a hot one tonight".

#85. Posted by: Tojo at May 7, 2009 3:23 PM

Locke seems to be hinting to the Others that Jacob isn't real, asking if anyone has ever seen him. Let's go find him, etc.

What if Locke's "kill Jacob" is actually kill the IDEA of Jacob? That Ben and Richard can't just keep telling people "Jacob wants it this way. So follow orders."

By killing the whole "Jacob told me" idea, the people would be free to think for themselves.... or follow the man who freed them from Jacob... Locke.

#86. Posted by: GFish at May 7, 2009 3:25 PM

Random thought - has anyone else noticed how much Walt's Mom and Naiome look alike?

#87. Posted by: Jack has a bomb at May 7, 2009 3:26 PM

@ GFish,
My point was that Dead Locke going back in time to tell RA to fix Old Locke which directly leads to Old Locke becoming Dead Locke is a "which came first, chicken or the egg" situation.

#88. Posted by: welh at May 7, 2009 3:33 PM

Richard alpert also needs glasses.. i guess the island hasn't healed that part of him, huh??

#89. Posted by: vintaag at May 7, 2009 3:35 PM

→ 84. Posted by: hurling
I'd put 15 yrs for the minimum for cougarhood, 25 if Daniel were over 50. Skipper, are you under 25?

ha! Ok, using the word "cougar" was a stretch, I admit, I guess Charlotte wasn't exactly cougaring, but it's interesting that she's (maybe) older if Dan is indeed in utero. (I like how cougar is now a the verb "cougaring" :P). I'm over 25, but under 35.

#90. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2009 3:36 PM

If "cougaring" is a word, how about "cougared"?

As in "Dude, you got cougared."

Or...

"Boy, I wish I'd've gotten cougared when I was fifteen."

BTW - My little league team was named the Cougars. No relevance...just thought I'd throw that in there.

#91. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 7, 2009 3:53 PM

1. Where is the Ajira chick that said "Do you know what lies behind the shadow of the statue?" or something like that...didn't she have Locke at gunpoint a few episodes ago? Did I miss something? Where is Lapidus and the gang?

2. Love the theory someone posted the Locke will set Jacob free by killing him. GRRREAT!!!!

3. Does the incident or the bomb cause the infertility on the island? Has this ever been explained?

4. Terry O'Quinn is AMAZING!!!! Just a look in his eye or a hint of a smile is loaded with emotion and possibilities. What a great actor.

5. Will Sawyer have a Sophie's Choice moment between Juliet and Kate and be forced to choose between them?

#92. Posted by: kimberly at May 7, 2009 4:06 PM

john cougar mellencamp. that is all.

#93. Posted by: Skipper at May 7, 2009 4:06 PM

welh - I agree with you. It seems too circular to me as well. But for some reason LOST time travel "appears" to work where everything only happens one time regardless of what "time" the humans in the event are originally from. There is no "first."

Dead Locke didn't go back in time to tell RA what to tell wounded Locke. It was Dead Locke's present (even though he skipped ahead 3 years). But I don't think that makes any difference.

Either way Dead Locke caused Old Locke to become Dead Locke via RA, but Old Locke had to become Dead Locke in order to be the Dead Locke that told the Old Locke what he needed to do. Thus being circular. It's just that none of these had to happen first, they just happen, when they happen.

That's why trying to change things seems like it won't work. If Jack keeps Flight 815 from crashing, he'll never be in the position to be on the island in 1977 to try to keep Flight 815 from crashing. Instead Jack is likely the cause of the Incident that leads to all the events that lead up to Flight 815 crashing and ultimately him returning to the island in 1977 to start the chain of events. Because it always happens that way.

I sound like a WHH beliver. But I actually think that Desmond can change things in his present or his past that change the outcomes of the future.

#94. Posted by: GFish at May 7, 2009 4:06 PM

I've been busy with work the last two months and haven't been online. Missed filmfodder and the value-added to my Lost experience. It hasn't been nearly as much fun...

So, I don't think anyone has addressed this yet.

I think the coming "War" that we keep hearing about is going to be between Locke and Jacob. All along I thought it would be Widmore and Ben, but they did some pretty serious foreshadowing last night.

When Locke and crew were walking down the beach headed to find Jacob, they were all walking in formation. About 4 columns wide, 10 deep or so... Also, the sound effects had a definite "cadence" beat to them during those long shots of the group. Did anyone else notice this? Of course I realize they weren't truly marching, but the way the shot was done was clearly meant to suggest it. Well...if you are marching along with an "Army"...one reason, you are going to war.

Thoughts?

#95. Posted by: lostinCA at May 7, 2009 4:09 PM

That is one incredible re-cap - the season is building in an amazing way. I love the build on Richard's character in particular and how it is tying to the island and/or Jacob.

You should check out the b-roll of the finale that ABC and Fancast released - very cool: http://www.fancast.com/tv/Lost/93942/1116819088/Exclusive-Lost-Finale-Footage/videos

-colin

#96. Posted by: colin browning at May 7, 2009 4:09 PM

@GFish,

And adding to the circular time problem is the convenient "selective memory loss" of the characters as they interact over and over again.

#97. Posted by: welh at May 7, 2009 4:39 PM

@COLIN

Nuh-uh. No Way. Nope. Not Happenin'.

I intend to keep myself totally unspoiled through next Wednesdy night. Sure am glad they're keeping it to one night/2 hours, and not spreading itself across two Wednesdays.

#98. Posted by: Cecil at May 7, 2009 4:42 PM

Comical Spoiler

I know who Jacob is...It's the Man From Tallahassee

Locke...I am your Father

Maybe Locke won't kill him...only cut his hand/arm off.

#99. Posted by: Gumbo at May 7, 2009 4:42 PM

@94 GFish said:

>Either way Dead Locke caused Old Locke to become Dead Locke via RA, but Old Locke had to become Dead Locke in order to be the Dead Locke that told the Old Locke what he needed to do. Thus being circular. It's just that none of these had to happen first, they just happen, when they happen.

No more circular than RA-2007 handing Locke a compass that he only had because Locke had given it to him in 1954.

Just where did that compass come from?


>That's why trying to change things seems like it won't work. If Jack keeps Flight 815 from crashing, he'll never be in the position to be on the island in 1977 to try to keep Flight 815 from crashing. Instead Jack is likely the cause of the Incident that leads to all the events that lead up to Flight 815 crashing and ultimately him returning to the island in 1977 to start the chain of events. Because it always happens that way.

>I sound like a WHH beliver. But I actually think that Desmond can change things in his present or his past that change the outcomes of the future.

I'm sort of still in the WHH camp myself until proven otherwise. I like that Lost's not going with the many-worlds hypothesis and trying to make it all logically consistent.

#100. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 7, 2009 4:47 PM

@74/Skipper: Hurling beat me to it!

@99/Gumbo: Your comment made me think: Locke is trying to look like he knows exactly what he is doing to win over his people. If Jacob is himself or someone unexpected, I believe he will lose his mojo again which will allow Ben the opportunity to get rid of him.

#101. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 7, 2009 4:58 PM

First, @48/Red.Neck.Man said:
"I can't remember any other shows that have had a character like Jacob that basically has been an 'unknown' for approx 4 seasons or so. That's a pretty tall feat.....but the payoff better be f'n good."

Don't know if you're old enough to "remember" it, but how about the mysterious Charlie from Charlie's Angels?

***

So, I've got the Losties in 3 groups:

1- The Oceanic 6 who crashed in 2004 and left/espcaped and lived off island for 3 years until 2007 when they all wound up on the same flight 316 and got back to the island. Also in this group would be Lapedus (but not Ben or Locke - see below). Most of them foomed to 1977, but Sun and Lapedus are still in 2007.

2- Those who stayed are Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, Daniel, and Miles. They foomed to 1974 and lived for 3 years with Dharma until 1977. Presumably, Rose and Bernard and the other background characters also foomed to 1974 and lived for 3 years (in the caves maybe) until 1977, but we have yet to learn of their 3 year experience. (AND WE BETTER, DARLTON!! We haven't forgotten about them!!)

3- Walt, Aaron, and Des, who got off the island in 2004 and are in 2007.

So, every one of these characters is about 3 years older than when we first met them. They're all in the same timeline (2007), even if their surrounding environments are a different time (1977).

Except for Locke. He's still the same 2004 Locke who crashed on 815 just a few months before. Because he FOOMED 3 years into the future when he turned the Donkey Wheel. He didn't age the 3 years like the rest. He does not "belong" in the same timeline with Sun, Jack, Kate, etc. He is the same age he was when we met him. Ben's situation is similar to Locke in that he foomed forward after turning the wheel, but not as far (maybe 6 months or so?). So he's aged only 2.5 years compared to the Losties 3 years.

Lol... and now my nose is bleeding (it really is)!

***

And the sub graphic was absolutely horrific. But the Juliet/Sawyer/Kate scene in the sub was even worse. In fact, this whole love triangle thread they're trying to develop is really getting nauseating. Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoy the romances and dramas on the show, but this one is so contrived and poorly written, it's just not working for me... Blech!

#102. Posted by: bees at May 7, 2009 5:11 PM

As far as the circular Richard telling John he had to die because John told Richard he had to tell John he had to die, I thought maybe the Island told John when he told him he had to be at that place at that time, though since John already lived the earlier scene and knew what Richard was going to say I am not really sure that makes since. The compass with no apparent origin bothers me more though.

#103. Posted by: Sue at May 7, 2009 5:21 PM

I second the need for an Alpert-centric episode. I had high hopes this would be one with the opening scene of him at the beach with the ship in a bottle... but nope. Maybe next season...

#104. Posted by: Callan Bentley at May 7, 2009 5:46 PM

“Follow the Leader” - we know from past experience that titles cannot be taken at face value on LOST. So, we still don’t know who the leader is/will be. I'm in the camp that thinks RA is recruiting potential leaders.

And speaking of that awful submarine graphic: Are we to believe that the sub goes directly to/from Ann Arbor, Michigan? (Daniel said that’s where he’d been.) What are the logistics of THAT?? The only "logical" course is through the St Lawrence Seaway, but how does it get through the locks? Then again, I suppose the DI could have built its own underground waterway tunnels. ;-) Do they stop somewhere and transfer the passengers to another form of transportation? Juliette thought she was getting on a plane in Miami, but arrived on the sub. She was drugged, so even she doesn’t know how she got there. Maybe I missed something along the way, too. My head is spinning with all this circular talk.


#105. Posted by: lovelost at May 7, 2009 6:08 PM

I do not think that Jacob exists. I think Ben made him up to scare the people into doing what he wanted. When Locke said that he was going to kill Jacob, I think he means to kill him in the minds of the followers, thus that is why he is taking everyone with him. I kinda hope I'm off base with this. I also wondered last night if the island is the "Lost" city of Atlantis. Even tough it a fictional, maybe in the Lost series it is not.

#106. Posted by: Bohn at May 7, 2009 6:09 PM

>And speaking of that awful submarine graphic: Are we to believe that the sub goes directly to/from Ann Arbor, Michigan? (Daniel said that’s where he’d been.) What are the logistics of THAT?? The only "logical" course is through the St Lawrence Seaway, but how does it get through the locks?

>...Do they stop somewhere and transfer the passengers to another form of transportation? Juliette thought she was getting on a plane in Miami, but arrived on the sub. She was drugged, so even she doesn’t know how she got there...

I believe Juliet was in Portland at the Mitelos Labs, (or Herrarat Aviation, nearby.) when she departed for the island.

I've long believed that that dinky sub only shuttled people to/from the undewater Looking Glass hatch, where they're taken off (drugged) and sent to their destination by means known only to a chosen few insiders - teleportation? flying saucer? who knows?

Maybe next week will give us some hints.

#107. Posted by: Cecil at May 7, 2009 6:30 PM

Atlantis? Whoa... nobody suggested THAT before... lol ;)

#108. Posted by: The Duf at May 7, 2009 6:55 PM

OK....Kate has GOT to DIE! I hate her. Sawyer and Juliet are much better together.

What was up with Richard's reaction to Locke being back? Seemed like he was quite surprised.

Oh....did I mention....Kate needs to DIE...slow...and painful.

#109. Posted by: So_Lost at May 7, 2009 7:23 PM

very nice review mac,
your back to the future (biff tannen) comment had me laughing.
i had expected something special from episode 100, although i enjoyed last weeks landmark episode-this one was better,
we now get a real close look at the people, whom we had regarded as somehow mystical & all knowing (ben-richard) as almost fraudsters,
the next time i come home from the pub late im gonna tell my wife - jacob told me to do it!
if the "others fall for that line....
worth a try.....

#110. Posted by: san at May 7, 2009 7:34 PM

First time Poster.

Just a few points not yet touched upon in this weeks blog.

1. Locke is Jacob - ghosts of island's past present future?

John Locke =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke
John Locke was an English philosopher.

Jeremy Bentham =
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2008/05/lost-and-the-de.html
Bentham was a noted 19th century philosopher whose main claim to fame was his advocacy of utilitarianism -- a belief that the morality of any action is dictated by its utility to the overall happiness of the group. In other words, the ends justify the means. Bentham's rejection of the traditional view of individual rights was a reversal from the beliefs of such 17th century philosophers as John Locke. In the three years between his ascendancy as the leader of the Others and his death, it seems Locke underwent a pretty major change in his value system. Just what happened on that island after he moved it?

JACOB Marley(Dickens? Christmas Carol-escaped from purgatory)

2. Red shirts The ones wearing a red shirt die (Star-Trek?) Juliet, Hurley... the two soldiers Sayid shot saving Kate.

3. Jack the back surgeon John the guy with a broken back.

4. You're not on the list.

When O-815 arrived Ben told the 2 guys, sent to the two halves of the plane. 'I want a list of names' I think young Ben remembered those names that he needs to retain control of the island.

Did Ben or RA make 'the list' referred to in earlier seasons?

Thanks for some great posts ahead of me.

Is the Season finale going to be stretched over 2 weeks?

#111. Posted by: CoyoteDean at May 7, 2009 7:42 PM

Does anyone know if Hurley scored any Hot Pockets of Doom on his Dharma Pantry Raid?
They might be helpful in the event he, Miles and Jin run out of ammo.

*******
During the FOOMing before Locke turned the FDW, Locke got shot by Ethan then he FOOMed to when RA took the bullet out.

Many had been wondering how RA knew to be at the plane with the med kit at that particular time to take the bullet out of Locke's leg.

Now we know.

Locke took him there for that express purpose. RA didn't know when that would happen. He never knew. Locke was the answer man for that. For all the time jumping he did (to the past and to the future). Locke knew that he would die at Ben's hands off island, and that his attempts to get the O-6 back had failed. Yet they did return to the island after he died. That was how he knew to tell RA to tell his time jumping self that he would have to die. The FOOM to when RA took the bullet out of his leg happened before he turned the FDW to stop the time jumping.


*******
The scene with RA and the ship in the bottle.
I believe that ship is the Black Rock.
I also think that RA has glasses not for any vision problems that the island failed to faith heal but because those are magnifying glasses to enable him to do the fine detail work on that ship in the bottle.


*******
I don't know if this would qualify as a spoiler or as speculation, so I'll post a spoiler alert anyhow that most people will ignore and likely read through anyway.

*** POSSIBLE SPOILER ***

Let me preface this by saying I'm not all caught up on the time/space theories. I suppose that puts me in the WHH camp.
While he may be correct that variables exist in his Daniel Time Equations (DTEs), I think that he may be wrong about people being the variables. He has already established Desmond as a constant. Perhaps he is mistaken in that Des is really the variable and everyone else is a constant. Is it possible for Desmond to be both a variable and a constant?

Therefore, based on this pure and totally unproven speculation: I think Daniel is wrong about the bomb. Setting it off won't nullify the energy release from the Swan.

Daniel spelled it out. The drilling will tap into that pocket of energy below the Swan, creating the need for someone to push the button for periodic energy release that Des fails to do and results in the Oceanic plane crash.

Those events happen. If they didn't, how could the O-6 have gotten to 1977?

Radzinsky seems gung ho on keeping the Swan construction on schedule. I think that still happens.
Simultaneously, I think Ellie leaves the island with embryonic Daniel via FDW transportation service.
The combination of those two events creates the circumstance where no children can be born on the island.
The Oceanic folks go FOOMing once again, reuniting them all.
Somehow, by passing through time like that, Daniel's brain gets scrambled in utero.
Richard does not (and probably cannot) FOOM because of his deep seated connection to the island (which won't be explained until he gets his RA-centric episode).

I do not think the bomb will go off anyway. Actually, I think it has been moved to lie in the shadow of the statue, probably moved by Richard. The item in the beach box that Frank wondered about before Bram whacked him in the head is an ACME Bomb Detection kit.

*** END POSSIBLE SPOILER ***

#112. Posted by: Gumbo at May 7, 2009 7:47 PM

@102 bees -
Nosebleeds are often a result of deviated septums, frequent pounding on the nasal cavity, or long term coke binges.

Jacob is a reincarnation of
L. Ron Hubbard. He has all the resources in the world, has mind control over everyone, has a somewhat gay spokesman in Richard Alpert (a la Tom Cruise), an evil minion in Ben Linus ( a la David Miscavige) and is just plain wacky.

Locke should kill him.

#113. Posted by: katespanties at May 7, 2009 7:57 PM

funniest comment for me was-
richard to jack, re:moving the bomb,
"its a 12ft long 40,000 pound hydrogen bomb,
no! not through the pool.

#114. Posted by: san at May 7, 2009 8:45 PM

you called it jaw-dropper
I thought at the end "and on that bomb shell"

#115. Posted by: David Don at May 7, 2009 8:57 PM

Locke has got to be in touch with the island somehow. When Old Locke fooms back to the 70s, he has no idea what day or time it is (April?, May?, June?...you get the idea)....but somehow obi-locke knows WHEN.

Oh....and Kate needs to DIE!

#116. Posted by: So_Lost at May 7, 2009 8:58 PM

@ 114. Posted by: san

haha... yeah, made me think that RA knows how the egyptians/aliens moved the stones that built the pyramids...

'The same way we got it in here'

#117. Posted by: CoyoteDean at May 7, 2009 8:58 PM

GRAA! Swingtown -- LOL! JITB!

#118. Posted by: James at May 7, 2009 9:56 PM

After all the theories of what the incident was or could be, "the variable" last week prepped us that Miles may come in contact with himself (as many have mentioned). Looked like Lady Chang and baby Miles were heading for the sub...

...but did they get on it?

#119. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 7, 2009 11:09 PM

@ 112. Posted by: Gumbo

think Daniel is wrong about the bomb. Setting it off won't nullify the energy release from the Swan.

*************************************
-My H-Bomb Theory from LostBlog-

preface --> I not a physicist, I’am a mathematician like Horus. But remember this a TV show.

I believe that Daniel figured that the H-Bomb blast explosion would be absorbed by the implosion of the magnetic anomaly, and forces would cancel each other out. IMO exposing the anomaly is something like taking the lid of of a pot that holds a localized singularity (A black hole) If the Bomb Blast is contained within the limits of the event horizon of the singularity, the forces are contained in the bubble and the island goes on. If not, then God help us all.
Hydrogen bombs are a staged thermo-nuclear weapon. Compressed U235 is used for the initial fission blast that sets off enough heat to cause the deuterium fission explosion. Uranium 235 has a half life of 703,800,000 years!!!
The main issue in preservation would be to keep the liquid deuterium from phasing to gas. It needs to be supercooled.

Uranium 235 decays to Thorium 231. In 30 years it can be measured and would still be about 99.999% effective, but now it will on be an atom bomb. It will not have the phased effect. But still quite a formidable blast. (Basically this 1954 Jughead H-Bomb is now a 1940’s little Boy A-Bomb)
The H-Bomb uses a U235 atomic bomb fission reaction to generate the heat needed to fuse the Hydrogen atoms in the deuterium. Basically an a-bomb is used to set the fuse on the h-Bomb phase. without the deuterium in a condensed and supercooled liquid state the only reaction we have is an atomic blast that generates the sun-like heat. the second phase of the blast, the fission phase will not take place. Why is that I write this atomic stuff down I feel the urge to put in that would generate a 1.21 Gigawatt…
here’s to Channeling Doc Brown.

#120. Posted by: stev at May 7, 2009 11:10 PM

I definitely prefer Ben as the "leader". I really can't see him as a "follower".

So this episode kind of explains (without confirmation) that this is how Radzinsky ended up pushing the button in the Swan. He's the one that forced them into the mess, so he's the one that was forced to clean it up.

#121. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 7, 2009 11:13 PM

I think it would change TOO MUCH if they never crashed.

#122. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 7, 2009 11:15 PM

→ 121. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
He's the one that forced them into the mess, so he's the one that was forced to clean it up.

***
ILBL...Might be the definitive casting profile of Radzinsky – ever!

Gotta love Eric's left cross though.

#123. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 8, 2009 12:22 AM

It has to be a classic case of Jacob vs. Smokey in the form of Locke. First, we know that Smokey can have a human appearance. He was Eko's brother, he was Ben's daughter in the temple, he has most likely been Christian telling Locke what to do falsely claiming to be Jacob. Now Locke trying to get to Jacob knowing that Richard can get him there.

Several hints give this credence. First, Ben said, "Dead is Dead". Why would the writers put in that line if not to establish a rule. Second, after Ben flushed his Smokey water, he came outside and told Sun he was afraid of what was to come out of the trees...at which point Locke comes out. Thirdly, Locke is nowhere to be found when Ben's daughter appears to Ben in the temple.

This also explains why the Island is talking to Locke. He is the island and why Locke's personality is different.

#124. Posted by: jacobvssmokey at May 8, 2009 2:08 AM

Hey, it's late and I've just caught up on the episode online, so sorry for any duplicate comments, but doesn't it seem like this is the only time where Ben, even when taken by surprise, doesn't actually have a comeback? First time I recall seeing him so totally speechless!! Can't wait til next week!!

(Oh, and GRAA, Mac - you rock!!)

#125. Posted by: Jenn at May 8, 2009 2:19 AM

@stev:

Nice summary, but you confused fission and fusion in the last paragraph, and left out multi-stage fusion bombs, where each stage's blast is focussed to trigger the next one (and only the first is fission) allowing yields of virtually any megatonnage.

Are you sure deuturium must be super-cooled? It's just an isotope of water, after all.
_________________________________

For those that are interested,t he Survivor review's up - click my name below to go there

#126. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 8, 2009 3:09 AM

Well, I missed LOST again, this time because of work...stupid work. ; ) GRAA, Mac—sure helps me to stay current w/the show!

→ 91. ransomjackson, et al.: The evolution of the word "cougar":

As one of the resident word nerds here, I was laughing out loud...but that does lead to a more serious point. IMO, it's just not possible that Eloise is pregnant w/Daniel in 1977. Daniel first shows up on the island w/the Freighterous Four in 2004. At that point he's already been conducting his time traveling research long enough to put Teresa in a consciousness-time-traveling loop, have his own lab complete w/Eloise-the-rat's maze (as Desmond saw), & have a breakdown of sorts. If he had been born in 1977, he'd be only 27 in 2004, & I just don't think it's possible that all of that happened before he was 27. However, TPTB have played fast & loose w/the timeline before, so it's entirely possible that they're doing the same here.

→ 105. lovelost: Submarine travel to/from Ann Arbor, MI:

Having lived in SE MI for 7-1/2 years & worked in A2 for two, I can definitely say that it would be pretty hard to get a sub up the Huron River, unless it was turned into the size of the sub that traveled through a person's circulatory system! ; )

#127. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 8, 2009 8:43 AM

I have a quick point regarding an earlier episode this season. Does everyone remember when Juliet was in a shootout while on the oars with Sawyer, Miles, Daniel, etc. I believe we are going to see that scene from a fresh perspective during the season finale. I wonder who she ends up killing?

#128. Posted by: Michaelmvp at May 8, 2009 9:04 AM

I like the idea of the two "energies" neutralizing one another and then the island will become just another island. It will be neutralized. The H-Bomb goes off and it'll be sucked down into the other energy.

We also know that from the preview we see Sawyer back on the island. But what about Kate and Juliet? I think Kate will come back, but Juliet will remain on the sub.

And, John is Jacob? Not a bad theory.

#129. Posted by: dk at May 8, 2009 9:16 AM

-About Locke’s lie to Sun, I think he already knows about the incident, and that it will cause the 70’s Lostees to foom back to the present. The Island probably tells him everything by this time, including the colour of Sun’s panties(red). So he can afford to mislead her a little, no harm done. I believe he is still, in essence, a decent guy. I love his new confidence. He even tells Ben about killing Jacob, not worried at all about what Ben or Alpert might try to do to stop him.

-Radzynski has become one of my favorite characters this season. I love the contrast between his dorky appearance and bad ass attitude. Good actor!

-I think Phil is Jacob. That’s why John means to kill him. You just don’t slap women, dude!

#130. Posted by: Mischa at May 8, 2009 9:34 AM

Is it possible that the bomb's radiation and/or the island's special properties (unleashed during the incident)is the direct cause of Eloise's ability to see the future (a la Desmond after turning the fail safe key)? Not sure what the signficance of her losing that ability 30 years later is, however.

Also, Kate needs to go away. Far, far away.

#131. Posted by: Mitch Connors at May 8, 2009 9:40 AM

@127 Alaïs_Longthought calculated:

>Daniel first shows up on the island w/the Freighterous Four in 2004. At that point he's already been conducting his time traveling research long enough to put Teresa in a consciousness-time-traveling loop, have his own lab complete w/Eloise-the-rat's maze (as Desmond saw), & have a breakdown of sorts. If he had been born in 1977, he'd be only 27 in 2004, & I just don't think it's possible that all of that happened before he was 27. However, TPTB have played fast & loose w/the timeline before, so it's entirely possible that they're doing the same here.


And didn't Desmond mind-time-travel back to 1996 and seek out Faraday in his lab then?

Lostpedia places Faraday's Oxford gradation in 1994, in which case his birth surely has to be 1974 or earlier.

#132. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 8, 2009 9:54 AM

@127 Alaïs_Longthought and @132 Cecil Rose concerning Daniel's age

I also think it is a stretch that Daniel was born in 1977 (or 78 what month is is supposed to be in 77?). His mom did say he was the youngest person to received a doctorate from Oxford but 16/17 seems to be pushing things quite a bit and I don't think he seemed that young in the flash back last week.

#133. Posted by: Sue at May 8, 2009 10:05 AM

Maybe she is pregnant with Penny? Daniel is there as a child somewhere. There is no way that scene with Charles' hand on her stomach wasn't intentional. They have not made Charles out to be affectionate at all to anyone.

#134. Posted by: Rudy at May 8, 2009 10:17 AM

I'm starting to get the feeling that all the major players (that'd be Locke, Ben, RA, Widmore, old-Elle, AND Faraday) are focused on one thing....keeping the status quo. Their mission is to influence people and events in just the right way so that whatever happened, happens. The two variables within those major players that are 'intrigued' by what may or could happen differently if timelines are adjusted slightly are Faraday & Locke....which is why 1) the island killed Faraday, and 2) island do-boys Ben and RA are getting ready to try and thwart Locke's intentions of killing 'himself', I mean Jacob....oops!

#135. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 8, 2009 10:20 AM

@134. Posted by: Rudy -- There is no way that scene with Charles' hand on her stomach wasn't intentional.
________________________________

Listen to the scene very closely and you will hear, in the background, Charles Tell Eloise that she should not go in her condition. he then puts his hand on her stomach.

Struck me as odd that if she was 17 in 1954, then she is supposed be 40 in this scene. That would put her date of birth in 1937, and thus she would 70 in 2007.

#136. Posted by: steve at May 8, 2009 10:43 AM

@127 Alaïs_Longthought and @132 Cecil Rose concerning Daniel's age and 133. Posted by: Sue

I also think it is a stretch that Daniel was born in 1977 (or 78 what month is is supposed to be in 77?). His mom did say he was the youngest person to received a doctorate from Oxford but 16/17 seems to be pushing things quite a bit and I don't think he seemed that young in the flash back last week.

********************************

This guy is a prodigy. he graduates high school at 12, spends 3 years as an undergrad, skips his Masters to spend 2 years on his doctorate. Not really that much of a stretch. Once again, if Ben's gun shot wound can move, anything is possible.

#137. Posted by: steve at May 8, 2009 10:52 AM

@126/Cecil Rose: "Nice summary, but you confused fission and fusion in the last paragraph, and left out multi-stage fusion bombs, where each stage's blast is focussed to trigger the next one (and only the first is fission) allowing yields of virtually any megatonnage."

Actually that's not quite right either ... follow this wiki link for a good summary;

tinyurl.com/p7tv6u

You'll note that "Two-stage thermonuclear weapons are essentially a daisy chain of fusion-boosted fission weapons, usually with only two daisies, or stages, in the chain. The second stage, called the 'secondary,' is imploded by x-ray energy from the first stage, called the 'primary.'"

The key point here is that the "primary" stage fusion fuel is deuterium-tritium (D-T) gas, which must be replenished immediately before detonatation (in warhead design, this mixture is kept in a "booster gas can" which can be topped off externally, and the booster can primes the bomb via a small feed line to the center of the primary). The need to replenish this gas has more to do with T half-life than leakage (T half-life is about 23 years), as the effectiveness of the gas as fusion fuel wears off rather quickly for a missile sitting in a launch silo for years. Depletion of the T effectively reduces the final yield of the bomb significantly (MT yield down to KT yield); however, even a bomb completely void of the D-T gas will still produce a good wallop (Hiroshima-size blast, rather than island-obliterating).

Not that it really matters, but the "secondary" uses Li-6 deuteride fusion fuel, a stable solid, for the second-stage "boost," but it requires the energy from the primary for detonation. Hence will not boost the secondary fission blast if the primary has run out of D-T fuel.

In terms of Jughead on the island, whether it was "leaking" or not, any stored D-T gas in the booster can would no longer be viable for the primary boost after 30 years (most of the T would have decayed away by then). I assumed the original "leak" Daniel detected was supposed to have been the D-T gas, but I suppose it doesn't really matter. As an aside, I thought what some above thought looked like a solder patch to the bomb casing, may have just been whatever was supposed to have been leaking out, simply oozing through the bomb casing and leaving that residue behind.

As another aside, I thought it interesting that the first test device of the modern primary device design was named "Swan." Whether the writers knew that, or if it has any relevance to the plot, I do not know, but true nonetheless (although Swan was first tested in '56).

Not that any of this matters in terms of the plot ... TPTB can make the bomb do anything they want, of course.

#138. Posted by: ealgumby at May 8, 2009 11:02 AM

Widmore DID meet Farady in Jughead with Elle and Richard. I've just watched it.

#139. Posted by: Craig at May 8, 2009 11:12 AM

Posted by: Alias_Longthought @127
I just don't think it's possible that all of that happened before he was 27.

They did make a point last week of saying that Daniel was the youngest student ever to get his doctorate from Yale (or wherever it was). Just a thought. :)

#140. Posted by: Christin at May 8, 2009 11:24 AM

@138. Posted by: ealgumby

I concur. See post 120 - Jughead - mutiphase thermonuclear device

I think the Jughead was only produced in late 1954 through part of 1955 I read somewhere that they only maid 5 casings of the 24 foot 42,000 Lb model.

#141. Posted by: steve at May 8, 2009 11:44 AM

@135/Red...Neck...Man: "island do-boys Ben and RA are getting ready to try and thwart Locke's intentions of killing 'himself', I mean Jacob....oops!"

There has been a lot of speculation about who Jacob “really” is since he first appeared, but especially since the time travel element of the show was revealed, with most fans now assuming he’s someone we already know from the island. The most common theories are that he’s Locke or Jack, but nearly everyone has been suggested at one point or another (I most recently posited RA as Jacob late last season). Something that happened earlier this season makes me throw another name out there now though … Ben.

I know it’s a weak hypothesis, but when little Ben got shot and whispered “help me” to Jin, it SO much reminded me of Jacob whispering “help me” to Locke. I also think it’s consistent with Ben’s character, always willing to take help from anyone where he can get it, but just as willing to stab them in the back if it suits his own plans. Just stumbled across the article about most common baby names, and noted Jacob was number one (again) for the tenth year in a row, but what really caught my eye was the meaning of the name: “heel grabber” (from grabbing his twin brother Esau’s heel upon birth). That led me to the wiki page for Jacob, where I found many interesting things:

tinyurl.com/2csjha

Seems Jacob and Esau had been fighting since day one, and “The boys displayed very different natures as they matured. Esau became a hunter, a man of the field, but Jacob was a simple man, a dweller in tents." Eventually, Jacob deceived his father, Isaac, into presenting him with blessings intended for Esau, and “Esau was filled with hatred toward Jacob for taking away both his birthright and his blessing. He vowed to himself to kill Jacob.”

That sounds rather like Ben (Jacob) and Locke (Esau) to me, but of course one could also take it the other way (i.e., Locke “stole” Ben’s “blessing”). That might also be confirmed by Jacob’s later face-down with a mysterious being (Smokey?) which left him with an injured thigh, and limp. However, ”Jacob named the place Penuel (Penuw`el, Peniy`el, meaning ‘face of God’), saying ‘I have seen God face to face and lived.’" Hmm … now that sounds like Locke.

Perhaps TPTB have intentionally intertwined both sides of the Jacob/Esau Biblical story in the Ben/Locke characters, as to make it ambiguous who “Island Jacob” really is … Ben or Locke (?). At any rate, there will need to be another time travel “foom” for either of them to be Jacob, but that seems consistent with the story-line, as Adam/Eve need to get sent back in time as well (perhaps Jacob kills them to “save” himself?). Given Ben’s total shock when Locke announced he was going to kill Jacob though, I’m now leaning toward Ben being Jacob. This might also explain why Ben has never met Jacob, given the apparently very bad things which might result from such a meeting, according to current Lost mythology.


#142. Posted by: ealgumby at May 8, 2009 12:39 PM

in ref to what I just posted ... duh, I guess both Ben and Locke have stared down Smokey and survived ...

#143. Posted by: ealgumby at May 8, 2009 12:42 PM

I'm wondering something, maybe you guys can help... if Ellie got Daniel's journal when she killed him, used the info to know discern time travel principles, etc. then give the journal to him when he graduated...

Why does the journal look new? If it's a different journal, then does that mean she still has the old journal? But with the same inscription in the front? I don't get that. Any ideas??

#144. Posted by: Christin at May 8, 2009 1:38 PM

@144 Christin:

Ellie-mark 1994 gave Daniel a new journal in 1994. He recorded everything in it. Carried it with him until 2004 when he took a freighter trip to the South Pacific, where he encountered a mysterious island.

There he foomed (eventually) back to 1974, soujourned in Ann Arbor for three years, recording everything. In 1977 he returned to the island meeting his fate at the hands of his mother Ellie-mark 1977. She inherited his journal. It told her a lot about science and the future.

Elie carried it with her when she left the island and lived back in Brittain, raising young Daniel, sending him to Oxford. When he graduated in 1994, she gave him a new, empty journal just like the old one she'd been carrying for 17 years.

Ellie keeps the old one, even as Daniel begins filling the new one with all the stuff she's already read in the old one. He leaves Brittain in 2004, so the journal is of no use to Ellie in learning about the future after that point - it has no entries after about Dec-2004 - world time, that is. It has another three years of entries made after the last 2004 entry, but Daniel was in 1974-77 when he made them.

That's why Ellie-2007 tells Penny she no longer knows what's going to happen next. [The writers are ignoring the fact that the journal actually became useless for that back in 2004.]

#145. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 8, 2009 2:02 PM

Cecil, thanks for the explanation! Those last two paragraphs made perfect sense.

You guys are the reason my husband is constantly amazed by my LOST knowledge. :) You make me smarter.

#146. Posted by: Christin at May 8, 2009 2:12 PM

amendmant: all of it made sense, Cecil - I just meant the last two paragraphs were what I needed to hear. :)

#147. Posted by: Christin at May 8, 2009 2:17 PM

@ jacobvssmoky #124: "It has to be a classic case of Jacob vs. Smokey in the form of Locke."

I think you might be on to something here. Don't forget that Alpert also said something to Locke along the lines of "You look different." Locke, of all people, would look the LEAST different, since he is the one that has aged the least between his departure from and return to the island. As someone mentioned above, he is the only one (aside from Ben) who did not live out three full years after Ben turned the FDW.

#148. Posted by: Stocky at May 8, 2009 2:20 PM

Coupla funny things...

17 year old Other Ellie was played by Alexandra Krosney. In the casting call for "Jughead" she was described as "Sophie. British aristocrat in her late teens and appears quite innocent and a little prim, but underneath she is formidable."

Krosney played the role of a yoga yuppie named "Silver" on CSI, Season 9, episode 13, first aired February 12, 2009. In the episode, she was approached during an investigation by Langston and Nick and she greeted the team with "Namaste".


Middle-aged Eloise was played by Alice Evans. The casting call for "The Variable" described her as "Sophie. Late 30's - 40s, British. Very intelligent, skillful, prim and proper aristocrat yet someone who is tough and resourceful when necessary to protect her family. Looking for actress 5'0" to 5'4" in height for matching requirements. Must have an English accent..."

Oddly enough, she really is preggers. She's married to Mr. Fantastic, Ioan Gruffudd. This will be their first child. Gruffudd is also known for his role as Horatio Hornblower (who served on a Black Rock-era English naval vessel.

#149. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 8, 2009 2:29 PM

@142 ealgumby- i thought ben has meet jacob before. when he took locke to the cabin, ben was carrying on a conversation with jacob. locke thought ben was crazy becasue he didnt see anyone in the rocking chair and called ben a liar etc. etc. .....

**POSSIBLE SPOILER**
i'll bet the wedding that's suppose to happen in the season finale will reveal the identities of "adam" and "eve". i could be mistaken but werent the two skeltons dressed in formal attire??

#150. Posted by: tiffani at May 8, 2009 3:21 PM

if i remember correctly the one & only time locke encountered jacob was in season 3, (the man behind the curtain) and although locke couldnt see jacob - he did hear him say "help me"
help him to die?

#151. Posted by: san at May 8, 2009 3:49 PM

Some thoughts to add to the wonderful hypotheses here:

1) Richard Alpert is an ancient Egyptian king; the underground temple is his pyramid. This would also explain the black eyeliner. But it does not explain his agelessness nor why he seems so clueless about meeting everyone he's already met before yet he's been there at least since 1954, maybe earlier. Hence, my Egyptian 'out-there' theory.

2) I like the theory that Locke IS Jacob! That would be 'the problem' Ben and Richard whispered to each other. Then again, as many of you have said . . . there is no Jacob; Ben/Richard/et al. made him up to scare the bejesus out of the rest of them. Anything's possible.

3) What is smokie? I thought it was an alarm system that Ben could summon on demand, but after seeing it in judgement of Ben, I've had to rethink that one.

4) What DOES lie in the Shadow of the Statue?? A portal that makes travel off/on island easier and this is what Widmore/Benjamin are fighting over? They can't just throw this out at us and leave it hanging, can they???

5) Both Widmore and Benjamin seem to know that Locke belongs on the island and must be there. Any thoughts? Could they both know that Locke is Jacob?

6) What is Jacob and why is he so integral to everything. Could he be 'what lies in the shadow of the statue'?

7) Sawyer & Juliette must stay together.

8) Kate & Jack deserve each other

9) Sun & Jin's storyline now bears a resemblance to the Desmond/Penelope storyline . . . they're each in different time periods trying to reconnect.

10) And finally, are Desmond and Daniel going to reappear at some point and play an important role in whatever wrap-up is planned??

I can't wait for next season but hate that it's the final one!! What a great ride this show is!

My hair hurts!

#152. Posted by: Paula V at May 8, 2009 4:38 PM

in the episode i commented on in my last post,
i do not believe locke is jacob,
we caught a split second look at jacob in the episode i mentioned.
jacobs true identity may never be revealed.
or we could be in for a huge plot twist when we DO find out who he is & what his purpose is.

#153. Posted by: san at May 8, 2009 4:59 PM

Based on that split second look, I'm still holding out for Michael Gross as the actor for Jacob.

As to who or what the character Jacob is, I haven't a clue.

#154. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 8, 2009 5:11 PM

I and the rest of the members of my family all also noted the really bad CG in the submarine departure scene. If it is true that nothing ever happens on this show by chance, then there must be an explanation for this. It reminds me of the picture of Mrs. Hawking on the desk of the abbot who was firing Desmond from the monastery.

#155. Posted by: August Paul at May 8, 2009 5:23 PM

@53 Glostover. It may be because it's springtime, but at this point the only men on the show I would NOT do....

Call me. 800-555-L-O-S-T

@74 Skipper. I wondered about Penny's mother as well. I don't think it has been established that Eloise WASN'T her mother (though I do tend to doubt it.)

@127 Alais and others
Dan became a professor at Oxford in 1996, so if he was born in 1977-78, he'd be 18/19. Possible but it's pushing it. Also, if Dan was born in 1977 and died in 1977, does that make him zero when he died? And if he was zero when he died, wouldn't that be the same as never having been born? Ergo, Dan is a figment of our imaginations...

Anyhoo, at least we know now why he named a rat after her.

#156. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 8, 2009 5:25 PM

This may be a minor point, but in The Variable, Charles and then Eloise urged Dan to go to the island on the freighter in 2004. But when Dan went back in 1977, he went of his own free will via the sub. During the episode, it was made out to seem as if Eloise sent Dan directly back to his death, but isn't it also possible that her main intention was to send him back to 1954 in order to bury Jughead, which will come into play in the finale. Further, it wouldn't be out of the question to think she had enough doubts about WHH that she sent the Losties back to the island in 2007 to prevent her from shooting him in the first place. He might die anyway, but perhaps it wouldn't be by her gunshot.

#157. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 8, 2009 5:47 PM

Other nonsense, then I'm out:

@112 Gumbo. Speaking of Hurley and hot pockets, I've always wondered whether Hurley's hot pockets were of the electromagnetic variety.

I want to repost Skipper's question from last week: How did Widmore get to L.A. so quickly? Something aint right there.

Maybe Obi-Locke is lying to Ben when he says he intends to kill Jacob. Speaking of Jacob, I thought it was canon that Jacob was Aaron. Christian? Miles?? Arzt??? Nah, I guess Arzt’d more likely be Smokey, what with vaporized pieces of him floating all around and whatnot.

#158. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 8, 2009 5:57 PM

Point of reference and apologies if this has already been pointed out. It is not the island that is moving about it time, it is a select few of the survivors of Oceanic 815 (and why just these?) and the three who had a previous relationship with the island, Charlotte, Daniel, and Miles. As they jump around in time, they meet Richard at various times, but Richard isn't jumping around. The beauty of the story is that many of the time jumpers are trying to change the future by changing the past and end up doing just what is necessary for that future to occur. They end up engineering their own destiny in spite of themselves in the land of WHH.

Does anyone remember references to the "incident" in any of Dr. Changs orientation videos? The "incident" is not the Dharma genocide and not the failure of Desmond to push the button thus precipitating the crash of Oceanic 815.

I will not be happy if major issues are not resolved in the last season. I am already unhappy that the story of Libby will not be "explained." What is the connection between Libby giving Desmond her inherited boat; Libby living in the mental hospital with Hurley; Libby on Oceanic 815. Surely they can come up with something involving Widmore and Hawking that would satisfy us.

Finally, is it my imagination or are there even more commercials now? I had the impression that the show itself was only about 30 minutes.

#159. Posted by: august paul at May 8, 2009 6:08 PM

I forget who said it first, but so true!

If they never crashed then they won't be able to change events so they never crashed. So really, there will only be one generation of non-crashers, but after that, they will always crash. Right?

#160. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 8, 2009 7:11 PM

what if Locke, like Christian, is a manifestation of the island itself ? we just haven't been shown that perspective yet. we have just seen Locke alive on the beach. that is why Locke looks different to Richard. if Locke is the island it should be pretty sweet when Richard and Ben realise this, if in fact they are sheming.

#161. Posted by: Truckdriverdivorce at May 8, 2009 7:16 PM

@159 august paul asked:

>Does anyone remember references to the "incident" in any of Dr. Changs orientation videos? The "incident" is not the Dharma genocide and not the failure of Desmond to push the button thus precipitating the crash of Oceanic 815.

Yes, the very firsrt one (Swan Orientation) says that there was "an incident" and after that "the following protocol must be observed". Namely the pushing the button every 108 minuts.

>Finally, is it my imagination or are there even more commercials now? I had the impression that the show itself was only about 30 minutes.

Nah. I strip all the commercials out when saving permanently to DVD and the episodes consistently come out at 42 minutes and change. It's probably an FCC requirement.

#162. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 8, 2009 7:39 PM

@-159 august paul.
im with you on that,
i cant see how all of the mysteries can be explained in any kind of detail in the remaining episodes of this season & what will be the final season.
i am now thinking there could be a few things left unexplained,
i just dont think there is enough time to tell us all.

#163. Posted by: san at May 8, 2009 7:44 PM

@160 ilovebenjaminlinusxx wondered:

>If they never crashed then they won't be able to change events so they never crashed. So really, there will only be one generation of non-crashers, but after that, they will always crash. Right?

That works only under the "many-worlds", or "alternate timelines" hypothesis. And if it did work, we'd get alternating time lines:

They prevent the crash, so they never go back to prevent it, so, unprevented, it happens again, so they so back to prevent it, so ....

Larry Niven said if time travel could change the past, it'd change innumerable times until somebody made a change that would prevent time travel from ever being discovered, then it all stops.

Lost seems to be taking the WHH position, namely that you won't make any changes inconsistent with what you already know happened in the past because you already didn't. The present is the sum of everything that happened in the past including you going back and acting in it.

Like ealgumby, my head hurts if I think about time travel too much.

#164. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 8, 2009 7:48 PM

@164 cecil.
we have no idea yet if this is a circle of causality,
A=B=C=A
the same scenario could play out throughout time.

#165. Posted by: san at May 8, 2009 8:51 PM

@145: hmmm. so are there two versions of the notebook or just one? if the original notebook was purchased in 1994, ended up in 1977 only to be repurchased in 1994, then you have a time loop involving an inanimate object. we dont know for sure that ellie keeps the journal, but that would be a good explanation of how she has preknowledge of future events.

#166. Posted by: captain nemo at May 8, 2009 9:37 PM

→ 112. Posted by: Gumbo at May 7, 2009 7:47 PM Does anyone know if Hurley scored any Hot Pockets of Doom on his Dharma Pantry Raid?
They might be helpful in the event he, Miles and Jin run out of ammo.

-Don't know about hot pockets, but since Hurley did in fact go for food, I guess that rules out Darhma peanut butter being in the guitar case. Does anyone have any good ideas on what is in the guitar case?

On another note-
For one strange moment, right before Sayid pop up into the tunnel with Jack, Richard, and Eloise, I half-expected to see Jar-Jar Binks pop out from the water. Hopefully the tunnels don't connect to the underwater Gungan City.


Overall this was a great episode. Therefore, FTL-ITB.

#167. Posted by: add it up at May 8, 2009 9:43 PM

one thing hurley did not need to pack was a tin opener,
pop-top tins of food in the 70s hmmm..

#168. Posted by: san at May 8, 2009 9:49 PM

@166. Posted by: captain nemo @145: hmmm. so are there two versions of the notebook or just one? if the original notebook was purchased in 1994, ended up in 1977 only to be repurchased in 1994, then you have a time loop involving an inanimate object. we dont know for sure that ellie keeps the journal, but that would be a good explanation of how she has preknowledge of future events.

________________________________

There is another explanation that might be possible. Eloise purchases the journal in 1994, and Daniel brings it to 1977. Eloise goes on with her present time line, leaves the island, raises Daniel to fulfill his destiny as she knows it, then purchases the journal in 1994. If the journal that daniel brought back is still around in 1994 with the notes from 1974-1977, then there are two instances of the journal. Eloise has pre-knowledge of the future events because relative to almost everyone else they are future events, but to Eloise they are past events. IMO the Eloise we see at the Hospital in Long Beach is from a time in the future beyond the 2007 time that scene takes place in. I believe something was changed in the past and Eloise is seeing the ripples of the change. She does not know Little Charley's name, and she does not know how Desmond will be. Dewsmond being shot was not in her memory, nor was it in Charles memory.

#169. Posted by: Steve at May 8, 2009 10:00 PM

OK, now I'm totally confused - when he went back in time, Spock clearly changed the timeline, so obviously WHH is out the window right?

#170. Posted by: Caelum at May 8, 2009 11:17 PM

GRAA, Mac.

Cecil, I'm with you on being bothered by that dang compass. I said back in January it can't just "FOOM" into existence and I still say if it did then it's a simple continuity error by TPTB. However, a part of me is waiting for the other compas to drop.

First, RA pointed out the compass shows its age a lot more than it did when Locke first gave it to him. So the compass does age. So how old was it in 1954, the "first time" Locke gave it to Richard?

Second, RA was not shown last episode giving the compass to John. So it's possible he still has it in his pocket. All we need now to disprove absolute WHH is for RA to pull that compass out next week. That'll be a game changer, eh? Unless it's just an error, of course, in which case the editing of the "2nd" compass giving is just a way to bury the error. "Time" will tell. ;)

@ everyone on the Ethan bullet: I don't have the ep on download, but see Mac's review of this season's premier, where he said:

"Time travel tip: When an armed adversary is questioning your sudden appearance on his island (and his time zone), do not pull rank and anoint yourself "leader" of his tribe. Locke is lucky the Purple Haze kicked in before Ethan could pull the trigger."

http://www.filmfodder.com/tv/lost/archives/004912.shtml

#171. Posted by: Bill at May 8, 2009 11:45 PM

First thing, does anyone remember that Locke gave a compass to Sayid and said he 'didn't need it anymore.' I don't remember what was happening at that time but could this be the same compass?

Also, if I've got it right, Ethan shot Locke sometime after the plane fell off the cliff, but Ethan was killed before the plane fell. Boone died the same day Aaron was born so that would mean Ethan would be dead prior to the plane falling and Claire giving birth. Just 'when' in time is Locke? Does this mean the losties are on the beach at this same time? No one's been there yet to check.

#172. Posted by: pebspostal at May 8, 2009 11:57 PM

@172. Posted by: pebspostal

Also, if I've got it right, Ethan shot Locke sometime after the plane fell off the cliff, but Ethan was killed before the plane fell. Boone died the same day Aaron was born so that would mean Ethan would be dead prior to the plane falling and Claire giving birth. Just 'when' in time is Locke? Does this mean the losties are on the beach at this same time? No one's been there yet to check.

_____________________________

You got it wrong. Locke was climbing up to the plane on the cliff when Ethan shot him. Once on the ground he is confronted by Ethan who is about to shoot him again when John Flashes to a time after the plane has fallen. This is the scene we saw Wed night where John tells Richard about himself comming ouyt of the woods.

#173. Posted by: Steve at May 9, 2009 1:27 AM

Here is the real conundrum. If Ethan shoots Locke while the plane is still up on the cliff and then Locke just vanishes before his eyes, why does Ethan not recognize Locke on the beach immediately when he shows up to observe the survivors. You would think this would be the first thing reported back to Ben, but Ethan does not even recognize Locke. Perhaps something changed.

#174. Posted by: Steve at May 9, 2009 1:31 AM

Okay, Lostpedia straightened me out. Steve @ 173 is correct, which means whoever said it way up top is correct.

Something definitely DID change.

Woah.

#175. Posted by: Bill at May 9, 2009 2:38 AM

If you recall in the episode where Desmond turned the key and wound up back with Penny in England, he went to purchase an engagement ring and Eloise explained to him that the "Universe has a way of course correcting" - in other words nothing can be changed.

Also, I've been watching past episodes and there are 3 recurring themes. The 3's, several people named Dan or Danny, and wedding or engagement rings.

Ana Lucia's boyfriend, whom we never saw, was named Danny, Eco's flash back showed a young woman at the church who said her son was named Danny, there was a Danny with the others, etc.

#176. Posted by: tesla09 at May 9, 2009 9:08 AM

The WHH time loop is like quicksand: the more you struggle to get out of it, the more likely your fate is sealed in stone.

I don't like the idea there was no "first" time when Dead Locke instructed RA to treat Old fooming Locke's bullet wound (that it always happened that way). You cannot change events, they just repeat like the levels of a video game. I would be very disappointed if the premise of the show is revealed that the characters were merely avatars in a video game.

#177. Posted by: welh at May 9, 2009 9:14 AM

I don't think i've seen this brought up here, but i may be wrong. I'm on the WHH camp. so under that premise, anyone else think that jack and sayid are most likely going to CAUSE 'the incident'?

#178. Posted by: klughs at May 9, 2009 10:21 AM

If Sawyer dumps Juliet and goes to Kate, my faith in TV men will be gone forever!!

#179. Posted by: meg at May 9, 2009 10:36 AM

Wow...been super busy this week & only had time to read the recap on Thursday. How daunting...179 posts.

#180. Posted by: lost2theworld at May 9, 2009 12:32 PM

The dynamic between Locke and Richard in this episode reminded me hugely of the dynamic between Locke and Ben in 'The Man Behind The Curtain'. He seems to see Richard as an enemy now in the same way he did Ben back in the day. Presumably, Locke's newfound communion with the Island has caused this shift.

By contrast, Richard in this episode seems far less sure of himself than ever before. The Island tells Locke things, but not Richard. Richard is constantly surprised by events and rather than being pleased to see Locke so confident and purposeful, he is clearly very uneasy.

So, wacky theory ahead.

Richard is not the Island lover we've been led to believe - he's an enemy of the Island, and he's invented 'Jacob' to manipulate the Others into essentially doing what he wants. By calling himself a mere 'advisor' he stays under the radar. He chooses the leaders and when they start to threaten him he engineers their downfall and replaces them with new leaders.

Example: Ben Linus. Young Ben is lonely and impressionable, and badly wants to leave his abusive dad and be one of the Others. Richard tells Ben he's been chosen by Jacob, and 'expects' him to be able to see Jacob - so Ben, desperate for acceptance, lies and says that he can. Richard grooms him for 'leadership' and Ben relies heavily on Richard's advice because he can't really see Jacob and is terrified of being exposed.

Perhaps at some point Richard begins to plant doubts in Ben's mind about Widmore's true allegiance to Jacob, and encourages him to challenge him. Exit Widmore, enter Ben.

Much later, Ben gets too big for his boots and Richard begins to groom Locke to take over with all the 'special' talk and advice on how to show Ben up as a fraud. Already a big fan of destiny, Locke buys into the whole shebang.

Problem is now, Dead-Locke has a direct channel to the Island and the Island has told him what's really going on. Richard has led him to believe that Jacob was synonymous with the Island, but in fact Jacob is Richard's invention, and Richard's will is not the Island's will. He is the real 'Wizard of Oz', and Locke's about to expose him.

------

Obviously the big flaw with this theory is the scene where Locke heard Jacob and we saw his face. Hurley also saw Jacob's cabin. But do we really know what we saw there? Ben's reaction when Locke accused him of never having seen Jacob seems to confirm that as the truth - thus Ben's part in that scene at least must have been faked. The rest, I don't know...

It's interesting to guess which of the main characters actually still believe in Jacob. I think Ben does, and I think he might be the only one...

#181. Posted by: Probably Crazy at May 9, 2009 1:10 PM

@174 Thanks Steve for the clarification on Locke's injury. I totally forgot he was climbing when he was shot.

Since most of us seem to watch back episodes over the summer, is it possible to come up with a list of questions we'd like to see answered by TPTB? Maybe, if they read Mac's site, they will be kind enough to fill in some holes with real stories rather than some recap in mid-season. I still want to know who was Henry Gale! Why did they spend a whole season introducing us to the tailies only to kill each one off - excluding Bernard of course? I figure if they only needed people to kill off they had 40 people sitting on the beach. Why introduce that whole bunch? Was that just to kidnap kids? And what's with Eko's storyline? I know they needed to end that one but I would like to see where they were headed with it. There are lots more. Maybe they need to write a book on back stories.

Giving one line answers is not going to do it for me. I want details. I'm also afraid they're going to just rush the storyline through now to end the show.

Through venting for now. Thanks for listening.

#182. Posted by: pebspostal at May 9, 2009 3:25 PM

other to richard:
stop building that stupid ship in a bottle
theres a dead bald guy with a pig on his back here to see you.

#183. Posted by: san at May 9, 2009 3:59 PM

On the ideas of Jacob not existing- something must exist there, correct? There was a man sitting in a rocking chair, and it was not Christian. John clearly heard the man speak, and some sort of manifestation of energy was throwing objects around the room.

In addition, Hurley has seen the Magical Moving Cabin, and Mikhail specifically said Jacob- not Ben- recruited him to the island.

Some time ago, TBTB compared Jacob to the Emperor in the Star Wars movies- the main catalyst for the story who was frequently discussed but never seen until late in the story. I doubt they would invest this much story development in a non-existent character.
************

I'm with Alais and the others in the "Hawking not pregnant with Faraday" camp. For him to be 19 in the Desmond time jumping stories, he would have had to be even younger- 16?17?18?- in the graduation scenes with his mother and soon-to-be- doomed assistant. The production team made no effort to make him look like a teenager.

A far more intriguing twist would be that Hawking is pregnant with Penny in 1977. That adds even more pathos to Hawking deliberately pushing Penny and Des away so that Des could fulfill his destiny on the island.

************

On the compass controversy, here's a take from lostpedia:

"The compass may present an ontological paradox, meaning the compass may have no origin since it exists in a loop in time, with each loop starting over when Locke travels back to 1954 and gives it to Richard.

However, the mechanics of the compass' time travel may work like that of the characters' in the show, following a non-recursive path through time: The "younger" version of the compass is given to Locke in 2008. Richard either holds on to the time-traveled compass in 1954 (and two versions of it exist at the same time), or it gets destroyed; either way, the "younger" version will always be given to Locke."

I posted that quote because it is an insightful comment, and consistent with how Lost has told its story- just as a younger and older Miles, or two versions of Locke can exist in the same time period, why can't two versions of a compass (new and rusting) or two versions of a journal (brand new and heavily used) exist in the same time frame as well?

#184. Posted by: Mizzed at May 9, 2009 5:16 PM

BTW, here's the quote from Lindelof from year three's season-ending interview with Doc Jensen at EW:

"LINDELOF: And more importantly, we meet Jacob — the elusive, unseen, presumed leader of the Others — for the first time. And this is a character who is every bit as significant to our universe as the Emperor was to the Star Wars universe — a character that you didn't get to meet until Return of the Jedi but was referred to all through the preceding films. Jacob is a guy who is going to have a very significant, ongoing sort of story value in our show."

#185. Posted by: Mizzed at May 9, 2009 6:50 PM

All I can figure is Richard had the compass for many, many years.

In 2008, he gives it to Locke so that Locke can give it back to him next time he see him.

When Locke fooms back to 1954 and takes the "present day compass" with him, Richard would still be in possession of his compass.

So, when Locke says "I'm from the future" and hands him a compass that is idential to his own (exp. if it's from Black Rock times like some have suggested), this foreces Richard to consider what Locke is saying as truth.

#186. Posted by: Towley at May 9, 2009 6:56 PM

@- mac.
thank you for the warning about these sites that want to tell us all,
i just clicked on one, then remembered what you said.

#187. Posted by: san at May 9, 2009 8:14 PM

Next week episode: "The COMPASS"

We see the last part of the episode where Locke gave RA the compass in 1954

The Richard opens a secret hatch and enteres a room with linoleum floor and floorscent lights.

He opens a cabinet and hangs the compass on a special holder.

We zoom back we see there are a few mor e compasses hanged next to it,

.. then we zoom even further and see this is a hugh storeroom that goes on and on and is filled with identical cabinets.. which are filled with millions of COMAPASS (ES)

maybe not...

#188. Posted by: maimon at May 9, 2009 9:35 PM

my two cents...I'm with the folks who think Daniel is already born and Hawking is pregnant with another child. Maybe it's Penelope, maybe it's not.

Nagging questions:

I wonder if Alpert isn't the only Other who doesn't age.

How did Hawking and Widmore come to be on the island in 1954? I doubt they were born and raised there and just spontaneously developed British accents. Were they shipwrecked? Were they snatched by Alpert?

Ben had the resources of the Dharma Initiative; Alpert did not. So how did Alpert get off the island to be there when Locke was born? He appears to have been a sailor, did he have a sailing vessel? Where did he get the money he would have needed to travel once on land?

Has Alpert been pushing that donkey wheel for hundreds of years? Is that how he got on and off the island? If so, why does he appear to be surprised by the time skippers in his midst?

#189. Posted by: undaunted at May 10, 2009 11:15 AM

My thoughts on the compass(es) ...

In FTL, Locke asks for his compass, and RA hands it to him, saying it's a little rusty but still finds north. Locke has this compass at that point.

Shortly thereafter, they head out to the drug plane, and Locke hands RA the pack of medical supplies to tend his (Locke's) bullet wound, but he never gives him the compass. In Because You Left, RA reaches into his pocket and pulls out the compass he gave to Locke (we never see this scene in Follow The Leader, but I rewatched BYL to make sure RA didn't pull the compass out of the pack Locke just handed him).

This leaves me once again wondering "by design, or production error?" On the one hand, it would tend to confirm the "two compass" theory, because it implies Richard had two when Locke came back: the rusty one he returned to him, and the "newer" one he gave to Locke later after tending to his leg.

The origin of the newer compass is not certain. In Jughead, RA seems genuinely puzzled by Locke's assertion that he (Richard) gave the compass to Locke to prove they had met; it seems like Richard has never seen the compass before, and perhaps he hasn't. He could acquire the "first" compass any time between '54 and '08, and give it to Locke after mending his leg wound. This could also explain why the compass RA presented to little Locke in the early 60's is NOT the same compass he hands him after patching his leg (or that could just be production error).

Alternatively, as many seem to think, RA could've already had the original compass in '54, and was just puzzled in Jughead over how Locke could've gotten it. If this is true, the compass still was most likely not very old at the time, as some have suggested (i.e., from the Black Rock). If that were true, then it's hard to believe another measly 30 years could've added an appreciable amount of rust, as is the case when RA gives it back to Locke after his return in '08.

At any rate, there is no need for "breeding" compasses ... one compass came "into the loop," either pre-54 or later (but pre-08), and one compass exits the loop in '08, when RA hands it back to Locke on the beach. True enough, RA has two compasses when he meets Locke again in '08, but there will not ever be more than two.

For once, I see no paradox/problem. JMHO.

#190. Posted by: ealgumby at May 10, 2009 6:41 PM

LMAO @ 57!!!

...wow. =P

#191. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 11, 2009 8:24 AM

ILBKXX:

I was puzzled at #57, too, but maybe it's a lurker finally working up the courage to make that first (for him or her) post. So let's be encouraging - more voices makes for better dialogue.

Welcome, DDMSjr, hope you like the place and join the on-going conversation. We won't even stop after the finale, we'll be nattering on all summer and fall waiting for that last season of the show we love.

#192. Posted by: Cecil at May 11, 2009 9:34 AM

So, what could the final season be about?

? This year is WHH, but next year Desmond figures out a way to change it

? WHH, but the Incident splits the Losties up by time again, some further into the past, some back to 2008, and they continue to try to change things

? WHH, and the Incident sends the survivors back to 2008, where the War starts (between Dharma and Others, between rival Others leaders, between Jacob and Smokey)

Other possibilities?

(Also, where's Ben, and do we ever see the 1980s up to the purge?)

#193. Posted by: LockeBox at May 11, 2009 10:28 AM

Sorry about the double post. Clearly I tried to go back and change it, but it turned out exactly the same way.

#194. Posted by: LockeBox at May 11, 2009 11:14 AM

wow--finally back from vacation--just in time for the finale! Missed a lot...

Thank goodness Faraday's dead. He was the most annoying character. Always seemed like he knew what was going on. Just when it seemed like he would reveal something important, he wouldn't. And the actor's twitchy hesitant speech patterns were more annoying than anyone else on the show.
So good riddance Danny boy! Here's hoping dead really is dead!

Not much else to add exccept that I hope the bomb is what causes the incident and doesn't somehow prevent it. IT would be immensely disappointing to have everthing we've invested our time in dissecting the past few years erased. Seems they'd lose a lot of viewers that way--not a good move with a whole season left. Not like the St. Elsewhere snow globe which worked because it occurred at the end of the last episode.

#195. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 11, 2009 11:36 AM

My speculation for season 6:

The bomb works, or doesn't work, either way the result is "The Incident" and nothing is changed.

But the the war everyone's been talking about is building up, and our Losties have to take sides, maybe different sides according to each person's perceptions, and fight for the 'right' side to win, for the future of the island and maybe the world.

In the course of which (I hope), the true nature of the island, the Others, Smokey, and Richard Alpert are revealed, as well as the history of all.
________________________________

And I'm still hoping that there's at least a semi-rational SFnal explanation for it all, no mystic Egyptian gods or mysterious forces. As best I can figure that meant RA has to be an alien or an automaton.

One way I could do it - millenia ago an alien vessel crashed underneath the island and stil esists, under it. The race that crashed there (maybe only one individual - RA) has been trying to fix the craft and gather/make the necessary materials to return home for all those millenia, perhaps creating the underground passages as part of the project.

When the Black Rock pirate slave vessel crashed on the island (or was transported from nearby by the aliens' technology to it's present location) the alien(s) recruited the survivors - and their descendents - as helpers in gathering/making what they needed. Only a few humans (maybe only one) are privy to the true purpose of their efforts, the rest take it a religion, supported by the largely benevolent care the "island" (alien hosts) take(s) of their(its) helpers.

When the island's unique properties (actually emanating from the alien vessel) were discovered by the Dharma Initiative, the alien's helpers became hostile to Dharma fearing interfereance with their project to get the aliens home, leading to the Dharma/Hostile warfare.

Now with the help of the humans' increasingly advanced technology, the alien(s) are within sight of their goal, but a rebelious Other (Widmore) wants the secrets of their technology to enrich himself, and using even a little of it has made himself rich, but wants it all.

He's coming back to the island in force to take what he wants, and the island (alien) and human allies try to resist it.

#196. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 11, 2009 2:25 PM

If Dan was already born when Eloise was pregnant, is young Danny boy on the island during the incident or did he get evacuated? During the time flashes, he didn't have nosebleeds, which seems to indicate that he didn't spend much, if any, time on the island previously.

All this talk about Penny and Faraday's parents made me wonder about another question -– who are Desmond's parents? I wonder if he has some familial connections we haven't seen yet.

#197. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 11, 2009 4:25 PM

→ 197. Scooby-Dude: Desmond's parents:

According to Lostpedia, nothing is known of Desmond's parents/family other than that something happened to his dad which necessitated Desmond's dropping out of university to support his three brothers. This would seem to indicate that Des is the oldest. Beyond that there appears to be no information.

#198. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 11, 2009 5:06 PM

So we can almost assume that Ben cannot see Jacob.

Maybe when Ben was younger RA took Benry to Jacob to see if he was "special" and Ben pretended he could see him but really he couldn't so he created that whole act to make it seem like he could seem him and that's why he was so surprised when Jacob got mad and said "help me" to Locke.

Question is, can RA see him?

I don't even know if that made sense.

#199. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 11, 2009 5:24 PM

@156 Scoopy-Dude

"Call me. 800-555-L-O-S-T"

I called. Dammit, I am not interested in a time share in Florida!

#200. Posted by: Glostover at May 11, 2009 5:31 PM

Is it just me or does Faraday look A LOT like Charles Manson???

There's this one picture of him that made me think that it was actually Faraday. I will try to find it. It's one of the more famous pictures of him... he's not really looking at the camera. It's like a model shot.

#201. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 11, 2009 5:36 PM

@ 196 Cecil:

There must be more importance to Egyptian hieroglyphs since they line the tunnels under the island. When the Numbers were properly imputed into the computer, it stopped the warning "He who escapes place of death."

Modern engineers still cannot explain how the ancient societies created the pyramids. And modern historians are at a loss to explain why so many diverse cultures (Egyptian, Mayan, Inca) created pyramid temples to exacting mathematical and astronomical precision.

One theory was that aliens with advanced technology visited earth and instructed the ancient civilizations on to build these wonders of the world. To the ancient people, these advanced aliens would be considered gods.

The island could be one of those structures, but instead of pharaoh's burial chambers, an abandoned space port from which the aliens could return.
The Mayan calendar states that the current Fourth Earth will be destroyed on December 21, 2012 by some unknown means. Is Season 6 those means?

#202. Posted by: welh at May 11, 2009 5:43 PM

Thought I would mention this. At first I was disappointed that there was no RA backstory, then I realized that RA is not all-knowing and all-doing.

Which makes me wonder....

Young BL's first encounter with RA, he was dressed in traditional other garb, even sporting long hair. In each instance of RA we've seen him well groomed like he was hosting episodes of survivor. RA seems to be expecting young BL to be running through the jungle. Is he to be sent there as well to wait for young BL? By Jacob? By Locke? One in the Same?

***** SPOILER ALERT *******
Remember when Hugo came across the cabin and peeked inside. A blue iris eye ball looking like Locke's stared right back at him. Was this Locke, or Locke's manifestation of Jacob?

Was Jacob's cry for help really Locke pleading to himself to die to take form as the true leader?

Have RA & BL been depriving Jacob of this pre-destiny to gain control of the island?
******* END SPOILER ALERT *******

#203. Posted by: cmileham at May 11, 2009 6:24 PM

A really wild idea... when Widmore tells Elloise "He is my son too" in FTL, I actually didn't think he refered to Faraday. When I watched the episode, I really thought he meant Desmond. Who says that Charles and Eloise are a couple? Maybe they are siblings (on the island, Ellie is pregnant and her brother is worried).
Maybe Des is the child Charles had far from the island. And that's why he wants to keep him away from Penny - and of course Penny isn't his daughter; it could be his step daughter, after all they really are at odds all the time.
Maybe Chrles maneuvered all the time to get Des to the island and maybe that's why Des is so special...
Guys, I never thought is so difficult to post - I mean, to try to sound intelligent. I don't know how you always do it..

#204. Posted by: Kindalost at May 11, 2009 8:41 PM

Horace was builing a cabin (remember Locke's dream?) For him and the missus... Horace had the map for Locke in his pocket... Horace was the wise leader of Dharma - no war waged under his leadership... Horace, authority undermined by crazy Radzy, finds solace in the cabin... and becomes (somehow)... Jacob?...

#205. Posted by: Kindalost at May 11, 2009 8:57 PM

@204. Posted by: Kindalost

I like the idea, but I don't think it is so. Two reasons from the transcript of the scene in question. Charles' response is directly to Eloise's reference to Daniel, and Charles uses the past tense "Was my son too". he had just found out that Desmond was going to be OK, and would use the past tense to refer to someone who he knew to be dead.

Transcript from Lostopedia

WIDMORE: Is he all right?

MS. HAWKING: Yes, Charles. He's fine.

WIDMORE: Good.

MS. HAWKING: Your daughter's in there. Why don't you go in and say hello?

WIDMORE: Unfortunately, Eloise, my relationship with Penelope is one of the things I had to sacrifice.

MS. HAWKING: Sacrifice? Don't you talk to me about sacrifice, Charles. I had to send my son back to the Island, knowing full well that--

WIDMORE: He was my son, too, Eloise.

[Ms. Hawking slaps Widmore.]

#206. Posted by: Steve at May 11, 2009 10:06 PM

Brace yourselves, cause this one is long (from all the references)!!!

So hard to believe that S5 is coming to a close, and even more so, that Wed's episode will be the last season cliffhanger we will experience. One thing that I think many can agree upon is that Lost has certainly has some strong season finals.

Lots of exciting action, and most often, a revelation of sorts of what is to be the focus for the next season.

For your nostalgic pleasure, please enjoy these random plot points from the season finale's of each season, lifted of course, from Mac's write ups.

Season 1 - All about the crash, surviving on island
Season 1 Finale - Exodus Pt 1 + 2
- backstory on how main characters came to be on Oceanic 815
- The raft takes off!!!
- The Others are coming, only the Hatch can save us!!
- Arzt goes KaBoom!
- Rousseau steals Aaron
- Boat meets raft, Walt taken
- Locke is snagged and dragged by smokey
- Aaron saved by Sayid and Charlie
- The hatch is blown open!

Season 2 - All about the hatch, mysteries of Dharma, threat of Others
Season 2 Finale - Live Together, Die Alone Pt 1 + 2
- Drunk Desmond returns with sailboat, "stuck in a bloody snowglobe"
- Sayid borrows sailboat, goes with Sun and Jin to sneak up on Others
- Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Michael, go by land, Jack reveals Michael's treacherous ways, Pearl notebook tube deposit, blow dart trap!
- Sailboat past four toes, fake Dharma hatch
- Locke wants to stop Eko from entering numbers on comp
- Locke + Desmond, trick Eko, activate blast-doors
- Backstory on Desmond - intro to Charles + Penny Widmore, Libby's boat, Kelvin the hatch partner, Radzinski's map, failsafe key, Kelvin dies, late code entry, Penny's note in book, Desmond "enlightens" Locke
- Eko recruits Charlie, they get dynamite, and try to blow up Blast door
- Desmond changes heart, studies Pearl print-outs, and realizes Kelvin incident caused 815 to crash
- Locke smashes computer, electromagnetic madness, Desmond turns failsafe key
- Jack and co on dock, Henry Gale is leader, Michael given boat + 325 bearing, Hurley released
- Arctic station - Electromagnetic Anomaly Detected, call to Penny

Season 3 - Otherville, Desmond's powers, more Dharma, beware Widmore's boat!
Season 3 Finale - Through the Looking Glass Pt 1 + 2
Jack leading Naomi + beachies to signal tower, Jin-Sayid-Bernard execution fake-out, Alex meets Rousseau, Locke knifes Naomi, Patchy shooting at Desmond above Looking Glass, Patchy kills girls for Ben and gets harpooned, Jamming stopped by "Good Vibrations", Penny communicates, Charlie's sacrifice - "Not Penny's boat", Tom does not execute, Sawyer and Juliet sneak up, Hugo van to the rescue, Sayid's legs snap neck, Sawyer kills Tom, Hugo tells Jack and co that they are alive, Locke in ditch talks to Walt, Crazy bearded Jack, Jack meets Kate (intro to flash forward), Jack wants to go back to island,

Season 4 - Who are the Oceanic 6, Flashforward, Fake crash, Leaving the island
Season 4 Finale - There's No Place Like Home Pt 1 + 2 + 3
The O6 return home, O6 Q&A session + fake story, Sun takes over Paik, Jack realizes Claire is family, Michael meets Sun + Jin, explosives in the freighter, Locke-Ben-Hugo to the Orchid, Ben surrenders to Keamy, Jeremy Bentham name drop, Jack and Locke talk, Kate and Others trick Keamy, Keamy shot by Richard, Ben gives permission to leave island, Jack-Kate-Sawyer-Hurley in chopper with Lapidus, leaking fuel, Sawyer jumps, freeze battery explosives on freighter, chopper lands, Jack-Kate-Hurley-Sun-Aaron-Sayid-Desmond-Lapidus take off from the freighter, Jin left behind, Michael goes boom, Sun working with Widmore, Keamy enters Orchid, Ben kills Keamy, Ben must move island, frozen donkey wheel, island gone!, chopper crashes, saved by Penny, Walt visits Hugo, Kate sees Claire, Locke is in the coffin!!!

Season 5 - Returning to island, Time-travel, 1970's Dharma,
Season 5 Finale - The Incident Pt 1 + 2

So how will this season wrap up? I think we've all surmised that the incident will take our time displaced friends away from the 70's, likely back to normal time. I'd suspect that a Jin and Sun reunion is in the cards. We will also find out more about who the crew is that knocked out Lapidus (Are they New Dharma?).

Is it finally time to find out more about Jacob? I hope so! From early on, I've speculated that Jacob will be future Locke, as this would explain why they would not show him. Will it play out this way - I guess we'll see.

As this is a finale, I can't help but feel that some other large game changing bomb will be dropped - ie - the focus of S6. If future Locke as Jacob does pan out, I think we will have some kind of involvement of other people from the future. Maybe an adult Walt, Aaron, Charlie II, Sawyer's daughter, Sun's kid? I dunno? Or will it be all about the return and revenge of Dharma?

Whatever it is, I'm looking forward to big time excitement!!!! Enjoy everyone! Enjoy!!!!

#207. Posted by: shikotee at May 12, 2009 1:51 AM

→ 207. shikotee: LOST wrap-ups by season finales:

Can you set that to Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start the Fire"? ; )

#208. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 12, 2009 7:56 AM

"Is it just me or does Faraday look A LOT like Charles Manson???"

→ 201. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Actually, Jeremy Davies did the remake of "Helter Skelter" that was on TV a few years ago (2004?). I rented it and listened to the commentary by the director and executive producer. They said Jeremy had been working on another Manson project that fell through, but kept his beard and hair long, waiting for another opportunity to play Manson. They said he nailed his audition, and to prepare for the role he listen to Manson's speeches on a Walkman as he slept. He was great in the role. I have loved his work since "Secretary" and am so sorry his Lost character is dead, dead, dead.

BTW, did anyone else see "Ace of Cakes"? It was really cute!

#209. Posted by: Glostover at May 12, 2009 9:56 AM

@ 169 Posted by: Steve Perhaps we will find out what happens to the journal, but it is a good assumption that Eloise Hawking has kept it after leaving the island and has used it to track the island from her station under the church in LA. Did she not allude to this fact when talking with Jack et al in the LA Dharma station? The journal coexists with itself for the period between 1994 until the time Daniel takes it to 1977, in its completed form with Eloise and in its process of being completed by Daniel. Eloise must know this, but Daniel does not. Until Eloise shoots Daniel, he does not know that the Eloise on the island is his mother. It must be a little weird for Eloise Hawking, possessing the journal from 1977, to go out and find and purchase the same journal, though empty, to give to Daniel upon receipt of his degree. But no weirder than John Locke watching himself get patched up by Richard Alpert.

@184. Posted by: Mizzed makes the same point.

@ 178. Posted by: klughs. "... anyone else think that jack and sayid are most likely going to CAUSE 'the incident'?" Yes, I think so.

@196. Posted by: Cecil Rose: Love the theory. Explains a lot. But I have my mind locked into a non-science fiction plot in spite of the time travel. but with a little further development and some emerging clues, it might make for a satisfying ending. I am now picturing Michael Rennie emerging from the smoke monster, explaining the whole shebang and, in a fooming flash of light, disappearing with the echoing cry "Thanks for all the help and a great vacation."

@207. Posted by: shikotee Thanks for the recaps. It was surprising just how much was crammed into all the season finales. Whets one's appetite for Wednesday night. All those TIVO's whirring at once--more computing power than the world's largest supercomputer!

#210. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2009 10:40 AM

→ 202. Posted by: welh
The Mayan calendar states that the current Fourth Earth will be destroyed on December 21, 2012 by some unknown means. Is Season 6 those means?

Yeah, I have a friend who talks about 2012 ALL the time. Try Googling "2012" and it will scare the crap out of you. There's a movie coming out about it in November. It would blow my mind if Lost found a way to incorporate that into the story.

#211. Posted by: Skipper at May 12, 2009 11:17 AM

@ 188 maimon posted "then we zoom even further and see this is a hugh storeroom that goes on and on and is filled with identical cabinets.. which are filled with millions of COMAPASS (ES)"

I can definitely see that. A huge Indiana Jones RotLA-esque warehouse filled with millions of compasses and journals and Ajira water bottles and Hot Pocketses and scarves...

So lets open the wagering on what Hurley's got in the guitar case...food is the logical guess...which is why I think it's not food. Or a tommy gun...be tough to get that on the plane. I'm thinking comic books...but I don't really know why.

#212. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 12, 2009 12:01 PM

**** Possible slight Spoilers ****

ALERTALERTALERTALERTALERTALERTALERT


New Official Podcast (next to last of the season) released yesterday on ABC.

Among the highlights -

The compass - a mystery that will not be explained. i.e. production screwup (my interp). It should look exactly the same in 2007 when RA gives it to Locke as when Locke gives it to RA in 1954, a subjective day later. Where does it come from? One of the mysteries of time travel.
______________________

Good Guy or Bad Guy?

Hurley - Good
Kate - Good
Richard Alpert - Not yet determined
Sayid - Both Sometimes

No, they didn't get into Ben or Widmore.
___________________________

Lots of joking mentions of 'flaming fifty foot Jacob' in the finale. At least I think they were joking.

#213. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 12, 2009 12:22 PM

We also thought they were joking when they said that a frozen donkey wheel would figure prominently in last season's finale...
Here's hoping for the flaming fifty foot Jacob (as long as it looks better than the CGI sub did!)

On the topic of the sub it just reminds me that movies/tv rely way too much on CGI these days. I miss the old nuts and bolts days of models etc where people had to be very clever about finding a way to fool the camera. Often these older methods look way more believable than todays CGI effects.
Ditto for animation. I was watching The Little Mermaid with my son the other day. I'd forgotten how beautiful the hand drawn animation was in that movie. I wish not all modern cartoon had to be Pixar-ed. The new cartoons-particularly those by Pixar are beutifully rendered in their own right but some of that artistic flavor is lost. Just wish we could get a good old fashioned hand rendered Disney toon once in awhile...
End of rant...sigh....

#214. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 12, 2009 1:01 PM

Are you guys saying Jacob is gay?

#215. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 12, 2009 1:37 PM

@ 214

Disney's new "Princess & the Frog" will be traditional hand drawn animation.

#216. Posted by: welh at May 12, 2009 1:38 PM

@215/Red...Neck...Man: "Are you guys saying Jacob is gay?"

Will flaming fifty foot Jacob be sporting a fierce fifty foot scarf?

#217. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2009 2:23 PM

@216 welh
Just watched the trailer--boy I hope its a good movie or it might be the last one we see for a loooong time. I'm hopeful--thanks for letting me know!

#218. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 12, 2009 2:46 PM

@211/Skipper: “Yeah, I have a friend who talks about 2012 ALL the time. Try Googling ‘2012’ and it will scare the crap out of you. There's a movie coming out about it in November. It would blow my mind if Lost found a way to incorporate that into the story. “

Can you say Y2K? Fair comparison as well … the so-called end of the world “predicted” by the Mayan calendar is nothing more than a roll-over of their “long count” calendar, rather analogous to the 31Dec1999-01Jan2000 calendar roll-over, and likewise has some people assigning (IMO) unwarranted significance to the date. See the “2012 and the Long Count” section of this wiki article on the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar:

tinyurl.com/37kdr4

Personally, I am not worried at all (just another freakin’ day!), and really hope this is not in any fashion linked with Lost mythology. I did my fair share of completely unecessary govt-mandated software testing for Y2K (and yes, we knew it was a waste of time beforehand), and it still galls me to think of how many people were honestly petrified over something that should’ve never been allowed to get so blown out of proportion; shame on those who fanned the flames! Fear should not be a commodity peddled for profit, but I’m quite sure we’ll see more and more of this as 2012 approaches (and passes without incident … no Lost pun intended;)). Therefore, I would be horribly disappointed if this plays into the Lost story. JMHO.

#219. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2009 3:12 PM

@211 & 219

My favorite 2012 doomsday theory to date is that the earth at Winter/Summer solstice on 12-21-12 will be exactly aligned to the center of the Milky Way, a mysterious Dark Rift which could be either a) the location of the Big Bang (creation) or b) a large black hole which would pull Earth from its orbit or at the very least, change the magnetic poles (inversion, which has occurred in the planet's past).

#220. Posted by: welh at May 12, 2009 3:42 PM

@198 Alais - According to Lostpedia, nothing is known of Desmond's parents/family.
That's interesting, because we've seen at least some family connections for all the other main characters (except Libby).

@200 Glostover
ScooPy is right, I was shovelin' it!!

@212 ransomjackson
What's in the guitar case? A guitar!

Just rewatched the epi, and another good line was Kate's response to Eloise's question of Jack: "Does he know what he's talking about?" Kate answers, "He thinks he does." Bazing!

One final thought: When Sawyer said ladies first, I thought he was going to jump into the water again. I wonder if that was intentional, because immediately after that they cut to Richard jumping into the pond. But here's another case of better karma on the 2nd go-around. Sawyer tells Horace (or high-strung Radzinsky, can't remember) to put women and children on the sub before the incident. Maybe he was cleansed/baptized when he jumped out of the helicopter into the water (despite what Cassidy said), much like Jack's symbolic baptism when he landed in the pond after the foom.

#221. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 12, 2009 9:47 PM

RANDOM THOUGHT:

I'm having mixed feelings about the season finale. I'm excited about it because it's going to be awesome, but I don't want it to end because then I'll have nothing to do until it comes back. Except that we'll probably discuss it during the entire hiatus.

Same with the series finale -- I don't want it to end because then I'll go back to having absolutely no life, but I want it to end because all the questions will be ANSWERED. Also because they won't be stretching it... and because I probably won't have the time I do now to analyze once I'm in college.

=[

BUT... TGIAW!!! 67 minutes!!! [Till Wednesday].

#222. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 12, 2009 10:55 PM

@ Bohn - 106
"I do not think that Jacob exists. I think Ben made him up to scare the people into doing what he wanted."

Ben could not have made up Jacob. If memory serves, I recall Richard using Jacob's wishes against Widmore regarding the healing of Ben.

I don't know... I'm half asleep. =/

#223. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 12, 2009 11:03 PM

@ Bohn - 106
"I do not think that Jacob exists. I think Ben made him up to scare the people into doing what he wanted."

Richard make reference to Jacob in 54, long before Ben is born, so Ben didn't "make up" Jacob. We saw Jacob in his cabin and we saw his big blue eyeball, too.

#224. Posted by: Skipper at May 12, 2009 11:27 PM

@221. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

Maybe he was cleansed/baptized when he jumped out of the helicopter into the water (despite what Cassidy said), much like Jack's symbolic baptism when he landed in the pond after the foom.

**********************************
Jack did not land in the pond. He landed exactly where he did after the 815 crash. On his back in the middle a bamboo forest. He ran to the pond and jumped in to save Hurley and the guitar case. I only mention this because IMO I think this is his entry point. Jack has been here before.

#225. Posted by: Steve at May 13, 2009 12:20 AM

I have been thinking more and more that what lies in the shadow of the statue is the Black Rock. Any ideas?

#226. Posted by: steve at May 13, 2009 8:56 AM

Looking ahead at my digital cable guide, I see we have another clip show at 8PM (7C). The actual finale starts at the regular time of 9PM (8C) and runs to 11PM.

#227. Posted by: Cecil at May 13, 2009 9:25 AM

i look forward to watching the season finale with anticipation,
however, i wont see it until friday,
i am also eager to see season 6 to find out how everything will be explained.
although i was initially disappointed to learn that season 6 would bring the lost story to a conclusion,
i now believe this to be the right thing for the makers of the show to do.
i had enjoyed watching the firs 2 seasons of nbc sci-fi seires HEROES,
but i feel that no matter what tv show producers say about target demographics being "relatively good" or that the next season will be all singing-all dancing, they are flogging a dead horse,
all good things must come to an end,
i see heroes as being a good example of this,
im not even sure if i will watch season 4.
maybe season 6 of lost is the time for it to reach its conclusion,
you wouldnt read a book that never ends,
so why would we watch a tv show that goes on forever.

#228. Posted by: san at May 13, 2009 9:43 AM

TGIW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#229. Posted by: Julia at May 13, 2009 9:54 AM

@ 221 Scooby-Dude posted "What's in the guitar case? A guitar!"

HA! A guitar in a guitar case? Have you not watched this show over the last five years?

If they put a [insert expletive] guitar in that [insert expletive] guitar case I may never watch this [insert expletive] show again.

I would rather see a caseful of XXXL "I Love My [insert dog breed here]" t-shirts. Or bottles of Dharma Margarita mix. Or compasses. Now THAT would be mind-blowing.

But now I'm thinking dog food for Vincent. I could see Hurley doin' that.

#230. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 13, 2009 10:44 AM

It would be a lot funnier if the guitar case was filled with ranch dressing....

Ques?: Is the clip show the same one from a few weeks ago?...maybe entitled 'The Story of the Oceanic 6'?

#231. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 13, 2009 11:39 AM

@230/221

What's in Hurley's guitar case?

After he opens it, he begins to pull out reams and reams of printed paper from all the comments from this show blog . . .
then, he turns to stare directly into the camera and says:

"Dudes . . . you're way out there! Can you read a script I am writing?"

#232. Posted by: welh at May 13, 2009 11:40 AM

I think that if Faraday's plan actually works and 815 doesn't crash on the Island, it was actually destined to crash into the ocean - winding up in almost exactly the same location as the plane Charles Widmore planted. This may explain Faraday's emotional reaction upon seeing news of the plane's recovery.

Perhaps the Losties discover this fact in the moments before Jack gets the chance to showcase his new bomb detonation skills..

#233. Posted by: vacc at May 13, 2009 11:45 AM

@ 233. Posted by: vacc
I think that if Faraday's plan actually works and 815 doesn't crash on the Island, it was actually destined to crash into the ocean - winding up in almost exactly the same location as the plane Charles Widmore planted. This may explain Faraday's emotional reaction upon seeing news of the plane's recovery.

Perhaps the Losties discover this fact in the moments before Jack gets the chance to showcase his new bomb detonation skills..
___________________________________

I really think is a viable outcome. I Had put this idea in a theory document I keep. This conclusion is based on the idea that Desmond is outside the rules and can change events. Desmond causes Flight 815 to crash on the island, and since the plane was meant to crash into the ocean, all those survivors are factors that are not intended to be around. The reason the O6 must all return,is that they all need to get LOST on the island so that they are not variables in the equation. This is why Eloise says that they all must go back or God help us all.

Remember Aaron is still a variable. He was never to be born, and he is in the real world equation.

The only downsides to this are that all of them should be dead, and the events on the island may have no consequence in the outside world

#234. Posted by: steve at May 13, 2009 12:04 PM

'Flaming Fifty Foot Jacob = Tom Friendly reincarnated?

Maybe he ends up hooking up with 'Overly Dramatic & Fashionable Arturo'?

#235. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 13, 2009 12:42 PM

→ 230. ransomjackson: Hurley bringing dog food for Vincent:

I agree...but it must have been dry dog food as the case didn't look like it was heavy enough to be full of canned. ; ) Was Hurley carrying the guitar case when he left Dharmaville last week?

→ 233. vacc:

Hey, it's good to see you again!

→ 235. Red...Neck...Man: Flaming Fifty Foot Jacob & Overly Dramatic & Fashionable Arturo: I foresee a fierce reality TV show coming on...

#236. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 13, 2009 1:09 PM

I don’t know if you guys heard about this yet, but…


***NOTASPOILER-NOTASPOILER***

The finale is on tonight.

On ABC.

At 9:00pm.

***ENDNOTASPOILER-ENDNOTASPOILER***

***Equitable distribution of asterisks used to avoid monitor-tippage***


And for anyone concerned with the Mayan calendar ending in 2012, I have more pressing news:


Lost will end in May 2010.

That’s right, I said it.

The whole show will end. Stop. Quit. Finito. No más. Kaput.

No more new episodes.

No more new recaps from Mac.

The end of the world as we know it. Twelve short months from now.


Enjoy the show, my friends!

:)

#237. Posted by: Clementine at May 13, 2009 1:24 PM

@ 236 Alais (sans umlau) - your astutitudinousness continues to astound.

Apparently, Jorge (I will hug him and squeeze and love him and call him Jorge) asked that exact question of TPTB. As an actor, he wanted to know how heavy it was supposed to be because it was always empty when he carried it around.

Apparently TPTB were exceptionally vague at the time.

And yes, he was carrying the guitar case when he left Dharmaville last week. I made a special point to look for it. (I'm a guitar player and it looked like a nice case - better than mine anyway.)

And it must've already been full of something because he put all the food he swiped into his backpack.

When I was in college we used to smuggle cases of beer into our dorm using a guitar case.

#238. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 13, 2009 1:59 PM

I'm telling you...Hurley's guitar case is filled with Hot Pockets of Doom...

Or... maybe Driveshaft CDs

#239. Posted by: Gumbo at May 13, 2009 3:43 PM

@231 Red...Neck...Man asked:

>Ques?: Is the clip show the same one from a few weeks ago?...maybe entitled 'The Story of the Oceanic 6'?

Although the *description* of the clip show sounds a lot like the other one (i.e. about the Oceanic 6) the *title* is "Lost: A Journey in Time", so I'm thinking it's a new one concentrating ont he time-travel aspects.

#240. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 13, 2009 4:02 PM

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#241. Posted by: san at May 13, 2009 4:04 PM

VACC - I missed you.

Scooby Dude - I heart you.

#242. Posted by: Skipper at May 13, 2009 4:06 PM

Can cartoon characters blush?

@230 ransomjackson
I know, I know -- a guitar in a guitar case, how utterly uncreative. But when I wrote that I failed to elaborate on my reason. See, I think Hurley thinks he can bring Charlie back, so he brought the guitar case to help him with that quest.

#243. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 13, 2009 5:08 PM

→ 237. Clementine: The end of the world as we know it...

That was one of my Jeopardy! answers... : )

→ 238. ransomjackson:

astutitudinousness:

Shakespeare's going to have to work pretty hard to keep up w/you in the field of word creativeness!

~and~

I will hug him and squeeze and love him and call him Jorge...

How funny you'd mention that...ealgumby used the same quote while we were talking last night. Great minds etc...

~and~

smuggling cases of beer into our dorm using a guitar case:

Was it Dharma beer? Causing Red Pain the following morning?

#244. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 13, 2009 5:29 PM

I will hug him and squeeze and love him and call him Jorge
→ 238. Posted by: ransomjackson

I recall someone (maybe you?) quoting same a couple years ago on this blog. It's timeless. And priceless. And so apropos.

We in AZ anxiously await a few more hours til showtime. sigh

#245. Posted by: lovelost at May 13, 2009 6:59 PM

any one watch g4's attack of the show?? just interviewed TPTB. it was a quick hit, but they did a word association where alison (interverwer) fed them names. ex.: jacob: present; egypt:(long pause)tapestry. when alison was suprised by this the laughed her off and said that the interview was filled with easter eggs. of course they were probably f'n with her but it was cool.
plus the lost parodies lately have been pretty good.
just blabbin to blab. tryin to kill time. sooooo psyched!!!!

#246. Posted by: flegma at May 13, 2009 7:40 PM

Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh...still no time to read this week. I feel so out of sorts without my blog fix. Sniff, sniff. Oh, the red pain, I'm gonna have to go and drown my sorrows in some Dharma beer and watch the finale without my mind being expanded by all of my fellow Lost junkies. Big sigh....

#247. Posted by: lost2theworld at May 13, 2009 8:02 PM

One final comment before the finale begins ...

When Locke said "I have a purpose now,"
did no one else think of Navin Johnson?

Indeed John, a very special purpose! ;)

#248. Posted by: ealgumby at May 13, 2009 8:45 PM

Dude.........that was not good.

#249. Posted by: Diggler at May 13, 2009 11:33 PM

@ 244. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought -

Shakespeare...what a hack...what's he ever...oh yeah...never mind.

As for word creativeness...AFAIC, a word is a word if it gets the point across and both parties understand the meaning.

Look at the shorthand, and often unspoken, communication every couple develops.

My personal favorite is the "running the fingers through the hair" signal developed by Paul and Jamie on Mad About You, which means "I'm talking to a crazy person let's get the hell outta here now."

To paraphrase Dr. Zachary Smith, "Oh the Red Pain, oh the Red pain..."

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A joke for you! What goes "Tick tock, woof woof"? A watch dog.
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#324. Posted by: alisonric at November 7, 2009 5:06 AM

I have a joke for you =) What is a zebra? 26 sizes larger than "A" bra.
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#325. Posted by: sofiaziv at November 7, 2009 10:53 AM

I have a nice joke. What kind of lettuce was served on the Titanic? Iceberg.
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#326. Posted by: chantellzif at November 9, 2009 9:45 AM