The Lost Blog

Key Points from "The Incident, Parts 1 and 2"

Season 5, Episodes 16 & 17
Episode Air Date: 05/13/09

Point 1

Jacob

Remember when season one ended and the masses got hot and bothered because all we saw was a deep dark shaft leading into the hatch?

That was nothing compared to this.

A flash of light ...

SEASON FIVE ENDED ON A FLASH OF LIGHT!

And God bless them for it. I know a part of the audience is going to deride the producers for going this route, but I applaud their marketing skills: we'll easily spend the next eight months mulling the enormous clues and questions presented in this episode. They unleashed a thought bomb. A big, honkin', I-have-no-idea-what-just-happened mind warp.

But before we dive into the season six conjecture -- and oh my, will there be conjecture -- let's hit the high points from the season five finale.

First up: Jacob.

We learn that Jacob (played quite well by Mark Pelligrino) is humanoid, lives in a basement apartment located beneath the island statue, is very, very old -- like older than Alpert, old -- and bears a passing resemblance to Stephen Baldwin (the island = Bio-Dome?). In his spare time he likes to weave tapestries with Egyptian motifs and insert himself into key moments in character backstories.

Speaking of those moments, the finale reveals Jacob's presence in the timelines of nine characters:

  • Kate -- Jacob helps a pre-pubescent Katie extract herself from a sticky New Kids on the Block lunchbox theft by swooping in to pay for the nicked item. I'm guessing that Jacob's intervention prevented Kate from allowing the dark side of her genetic code -- i.e. the bad stuff she got from her daddy -- from turning young Katie into a full-fledged criminal. Or maybe Jacob just really loves NKOTB.
  • Sawyer -- Appearing in 1976, just after the funeral for Sawyer's mother and father concludes, Jacob provides young James Ford with a pen. Little James was in the middle of writing "the Sawyer letter," which we know served as an important catalyst for Sawyer's eventual development as a con man. Had Jacob not appeared with a fresh new pen, little James may have never finished that letter.
  • Sayid -- Sayid gets the pointy end of the Jacob stick. The mysterious islander appears in Los Angeles, in the post-Oceanic-Six period, and distracts Sayid on a street corner while Nadia wanders into the crosswalk and gets mowed down by an SUV. Presumably, we can trace a line through Jacob's appearance, Nadia's death, Sayid's recruitment by Ben, Ilana nabbing Sayid, and Sayid's eventual reappearance on the island.
  • Sun and Jin -- Jacob appears at Sun and Jin's wedding and tells them -- in flawless Korean -- that their love is special and they must never take it for granted. I have no idea how this influences their island experience, so lets label Jacob a wedding crasher and move on.
  • Ilana -- At some point in the not-too-distant past, Ilana was in a hospital recovering from some sort of trauma (Was she burned? Did she have a face transplant? Is she Michael Jackson?). Jacob visits her, and this brief scene suggests that Ilana knows Jacob -- or knows of Jacob -- and she's a card-carrying evangelist in the Church of Jacob.
  • Hurley -- Jacob was partially responsible (perhaps wholly responsible) for Hurley being on Ajira 316. Hurley shares a cab with Jacob after being released from prison, and it seems like Jacob has a soft spot for the big fella because he assuages Hurley's fears about being cursed and he says Hurley's island return is completely voluntary. Sayid would have preferred this kinder-gentler approach, but such is life in the "Lost" universe. (Sidenote: we still don't know what's in the guitar case, but we do know it appeared at the same time as Jacob.)
  • Jack -- Remember that story Jack told Kate in the pilot about slicing open his first patient's dural sac and then using that "count to five" technique to get through the fear (the story also served as a plot device in season three)? Well, Jacob crosses paths with Jack moments after that event, and he utters the telling line, "I guess it just needed a little push." Granted, he was referring to Jack's unsuccessful attempt at buying an Apollo bar from a vending machine, but it's still full of meaning and importance and nougatty goodness. Locke -- Jacob was the first person at Locke's side after he suffered that eight-story fall. Jacob touches Locke on the shoulder -- awakening him? resurrecting him? -- and says: "Don't worry, everything is going to be all right. I'm sorry this happened to you." I'm working under the assumption that Jacob's touch meant more than his words because I've seen Hallmark cards with deeper sentiment.

We also learn that Jacob has an adversary -- the yin to his yang -- who wants nothing more than to see Jacob's innards spread across the island's sand. We're introduced to Man #2 (that's how he's referenced on the episode's IMDb entry) in the episode's opening scene. This scene is set far in the past: the statue has all of its appendages (it's rumored to be the Egyptian deity Tawaret), the Black Rock has appeared just off shore, and Man #2 is displeased because Jacob has brought the crew to the island. The duo has clearly gone through this scenario many times before: "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt ... it always ends the same," says exasperated Man #2.

But then Jacob counters with a line of dialogue that could dramatically influence season six: "It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress."

It would appear that "Lost" is incorporating a variation on the eternal return into its mythology ("this has all happened before, this will all happen again" -- "Battlestar" fans know this well). If we take this scene at face value, then we know Jacob has been bringing groups of people to the island for centuries. But why? Are the Oceanic Survivors the final group? Why are they any different from previous groups? Has each group contributed to a collective wisdom that will eventually culminate in some sort of "end"?

Point 2

Locke Ben Jacob

Remember how Locke seemed like a new man in last week's episode? There's a good reason for that: he is a new man.

We discover in the very final moments of the finale that the plan to kill Jacob isn't really Locke's. It's the plan of the dude who took over Locke's body.

I'm having a hard time putting this into words because we have very few details, but I think the gist of it is this: Jacob's long-time adversary -- Man #2 -- has somehow found a loophole that allowed him to inhabit Locke's "entity." Man #2 is now controlling Locke. Or he is Locke. Or he's in Locke's body but he's still Man #2. Regardless, Man #2's Lockian trick gives him a way to kill Jacob. This is a major development because the episode's opening scene made it clear that Jacob was virtually untouchable. That's no longer the case.

At this point, all we really know is that the mysterious metal case the Ajirans have been hauling around for half the season contains the very-dead, not-at-all-resurrected body of John Locke. So, we've got a dead Locke and we've got a living Locke. Dead Locke is innocuous enough, but living Locke ... well, he's going to be a problem because where Jacob was a laissez faire, roll-with-the-punches kinda leader, this new guy has a Machiavellian glint. Worse still, New Locke can manipulate Ben at will. The man who wields The Linus rules all he sees.

I'm guessing that season six will involve a showdown between the loyal Jacobins -- led by Ilana -- and New Locke (I hesitate to brand him "Evil Locke" because we don't know his intentions and he doesn't -- as yet -- have sinister mustache). This brings up a host of questions:

  • Is there any chance Jacob survives, or was this a one-time appearance?
  • Man #2 seems to have a distaste for Jacob's group experiments, so will he seek to rid the island of the unworthy?
  • We learn that Jacob "made" Richard Alpert into an age-defiant consigliere, but if Jacob is gone, where does Richard factor in?
  • What is the relationship between Alpert and the Ajirans? We see that he successfully answers the "what lies in the shadow of the statue" question, but how is he connected to them? (Note: Thanks to commenters mtncbn and Egyptian Guyliner for the translation of Alpert's response: "He who will save us all.")
  • Which side is Charles Widmore on?
  • Who will the Others follow? Is anyone going to alert those lazy Other bastards lounging in the Temple?
  • Will Ben dutifully sit by New Locke's side, or will he try to seize ultimate power?
  • Does Smokey know about New Locke? If so, is Smokey tied to Man #2?
Update, 5/14 -- I forgot to mention Jacob's final message: "They're coming." I took this to mean that the '77 crew is coming, but I have no factual basis for this conclusion other than a flimsy action-reaction connection: Swan bomb = course correction (and again, that's only a guess). Jacob may have been referring to another group: the Ajirans, another platoon of Widmore mercenaries, the New Kids on the Block reunion, etc.

Point 3

Sawyer Juliet Jack Kate

Dear Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse:

Let me be clear. If the season six premiere does not show Dr. Juliet Burke striding from a Dharma condo with her health intact and a big smile on her face, I hereby vow to lock you in a viewing room and inflict the Karl treatment while "Stranger in a Strange Land" plays over and over and over again.

Thank you and enjoy the time off.

Sincerely,
That powerless guy who writes the blog you don't read.

With that out of the way ...

I've been a fan of Juliet from the start. I vouched for her during those early Other days. I justified her random ninja moves. I even got on board with the ill-advised Goodwin affair. That's why Juliet's "end" was more gut wrenching for me than any of the previous dispatches, including Charlie's. Now, I know we didn't technically see Juliet die, and given the circumstances surrounding her final moments (big flash of light coupled with various time-travel/time-changing theories) there's a possibility she'll return, but this was an ending of sorts for Jules. Even in a reconstituted form, she'll always be on the outside looking in, and that kinda sucks.

But on the bright side, detonating a nuclear weapon on top of a volatile pocket of electromagnetism raises "blaze of glory" to a whole new level. So she's got that going for her.

The fate of the other circa '77 characters is also up in the air because, as I already mentioned, the season ended in a flash of light. We don't know if they're alive (I'm assuming yes), what time period they're in, if they're on the island, or if they're all together. Moreover, we don't know if "the incident" was averted or -- picking up Miles' logic -- if the bomb detonation was the incident.

Nonetheless, the closing 15 minutes offered an exhilarating collection of gunplay (how many people did Jack kill?), magnetic ruthlessness (RIP, Dr. Chang's arm), Sarlacc-esque danger, and rebar retribution (suck it, Phil!). And Josh Holloway unloaded a tragic reaction shot that's on-par with Yunjin Kim's scream from the season four finale.

Point 4

Rose Bernard

I'm going to give the "Lost" crew a mulligan on Rose, Bernard and Vincent. While I find it hard to believe they've settled into a quiet "retirement" on the far side of the island (and have avoided Others and Dharma drones for three years), their decision to extricate themselves from all the running and shooting and nonsense their Oceanic comrades kick up does make sense. If the best I could hope for was an ample supply of mangos and a kickin' old man beard, I'd do the same thing.

That said, I get the feeling Rose and Bernard will pop up again. Perhaps they'll be revealed as the Adam and Eve skeletons, 30 years hence ...

Point 5

Island

A few closing questions and observations:

  • Best Line: "I'm beginning to think you just make these rules up as you go along, Richard." -- Locke to Alpert.

  • Second Best Line: "Oh hell no." -- Rose, upon seeing Sawyer, Kate and Juliet.
  • Third Best Line: "I don't know, but his Korean is excellent." -- Jin, noting Jacob's fluency.
  • Fourth Best Line: "If Jack wants to blow up the island, good for Jack." -- Sawyer, before everything goes to hell.
  • Jack tells '77-era Richard Alpert not to give up on Locke, but little does he realize that the guy he'll be vouching for is New Locke. And perhaps Jack's endorsement causes '07 Alpert to push aside misgivings about leading New Locke straight to Jacob.
  • Could this be the end of the road for Sayid? Or will he end up in the Temple infirmary next to young Ben Linus?
  • I know the island is a giant tube of Neosporin, but Jack's recovery from Sawyer's epic beatdown (including that stomach-churning crotch kick) was truly remarkable.
  • Were Rose and Bernard the only survivors from the flaming arrow attack? I thought a handful of other Oceanics made it through.
  • And on a personal note ... thank you so much for all the fantastic conversations and insight you guys bring to this blog. I know I've said it many times before, but The Lost Blog would be nothing without you and I consider it an honor that you choose to spend time here. It means more to me than you can imagine.

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:

The final season (?!?) of Lost will begin in early 2010.

All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

Pleasure to be first!

#1. Posted by: Jibran Ilyas at May 14, 2009 1:59 AM

yes, first
I feel bad for Sawyer but I am so glad that Juliet is dead

#2. Posted by: sheyla at May 14, 2009 2:00 AM

been waiting all night for the recap! THANKS!

#3. Posted by: bunny at May 14, 2009 2:01 AM

Now that I have secured my First First in First Post (ever) on this blog. I want to start out by saying GRAA MAC!

I have been reading the reviews and brilliant posts for 2 years now. It makes life so much better. I can't wait to see everyone's clever theories post finale

#4. Posted by: Jibran Ilyas at May 14, 2009 2:02 AM

1) MIF.

2) GRAA, Mac!

3) I cried. And cried. And that's all I've got to say about that.

#5. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 14, 2009 2:04 AM

great episode! Shame about Juliet.

#6. Posted by: sk83 at May 14, 2009 2:08 AM

My brain is overflowing with thoughts. But the one I'm stuck on right now is that Charlie looks a lot like Jacob, and Jacob is the one that gives (sort of) Hurley the guitar case. Charlie's guitar case?

I'm not saying Charlie is Jacob, don't get me wrong. But is there a connection there?

#7. Posted by: AK at May 14, 2009 2:26 AM

Lucky 7!

#8. Posted by: Glostover at May 14, 2009 2:27 AM

Not.

#9. Posted by: Glostover at May 14, 2009 2:28 AM

What lies in the Shadow of the Statue? "Ille qui nos omnes servabit", which means "he whom we all serve."

#10. Posted by: mtncbn at May 14, 2009 2:31 AM

Hey Mac,

Great recap as always ! It's been awhile since I've posted, but i continue to be a loyal reader.

I just wanted to point out something I noticed regarding Jacob's travels through the Losties lives. In every interaction he had with them he actually made some sort of physical contact with them. I think this is significant. Did he mark them so they would be drawn to the island? Or was it his way of protecting them throughout their lives? All of them are still alive on the island (we haven't seen Sayid die of the gunshot). What do you think?

It's gonna be a looooooooooong 8 months dude.

#11. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 14, 2009 2:32 AM

First!

(Do you know how many hydrogen bombs I had to set off, how many flights across the Pacific I had to recreate, how many shoes I had to place on coffin-ed cadavers before I finally course corrected and got this entry to come out right? - What? Oh, dang, time to book another flight...)

#12. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2009 2:45 AM

Wonderful review Mac. Thank you for all your service over the seasons, and enjoy your well-deserved rest!

It looked to me that the statue was the crocodile headed god Sobek. Didn't look like the hippo head of Tawaret, and it definitely wasn't pregnant.

I called that Season 5 would end with Jughead exploding, but I guess that was obvious from the moment the thing appeared.

Also loved the cameos of Vincent, Rose and Bernard. Also the casting of the children as young Losties was very, very well done. I totally got caught off guard by the doppelganger Locke - my hat is off to those who suspected as much. Is he good or evil?

I too am a Juliet fan and am sad to see her go, but boy what an honorable "Dr. Strangelove/Independence Day" way to go! I can't wait to see what the detonation causes next season. I am sad that Jacob was introduced as such an amiable guy only to be killed right away. I wish Ben hadn't followed orders, but loved seeing Ben show so much vulnerability and hurt - a nice scene for Mr. Emerson.

I'm sure I'll post more later, but for now let me just say it has been such a pleasure sharing these episodes with you all here.

#13. Posted by: Glostover at May 14, 2009 2:46 AM

Wow...WTF

#14. Posted by: Mike at May 14, 2009 2:57 AM

I know no Latin, just get these elsewhere. Another translation I came across:

"he who will save us all"

#15. Posted by: m at May 14, 2009 3:02 AM

I also want to posit that the dog-headed god shown in Smokie's lair was Set, not Anubis. Here's a blurb about the two of them:

www.fruitofthenile.com/sobek.htm

OK really going to bed now. Byeeee

#16. Posted by: Glostover at May 14, 2009 3:03 AM

@mac "In his spare time he (Jacob) likes to weave tapestries..."

We always knew that the statue was looming over the island but little did we know what/who was looming under the statue.

#17. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2009 3:09 AM

Didja notice that...

..in the opening scene, Jacob was wearing white while Man #2 was wearing black?

...Rose and Bernard seem to be the exception to the "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt ... it always ends the same" corollary?

and

...the opening scene where man #2 expresses his desire but inability to kill Jacob was reminiscent of the Ben/Widmore penthouse scene in "The Shape of Things to Come"?

#18. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2009 3:23 AM

WOW, I don't even know where to begin with this episode. Jacob and his duplicitous number two, Jacob contacting everyone at various points in the outside world, Locke almost certainly not being resurrected, Jacob dying possibly at his number two's manipulative hands, Ilia and Bram appearing to be allies of Richard, and lastly the possible deaths of Sayid and Juliet. Oh, and I forgot to mention a H-bomb going off to end the season.

Regarding Juliet: I completely agree with you Mac, great character and if a new time line gets established hopefully she will be there. If the bomb destroyed or rendered uninhabitable the island than there would be no island for her to be sent to. I can't imagine anyone near ground zero could have survived a 5-10 megaton blast and if that is the case: They aren't going to off Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, Miles etc, and a new time line will have been established I think... Who the hell knows though.

I don't need to see Juliet in a Dharma land, but she better still be on the show. Since Carlton Cuse seems to be intent on pursuing his soapy interests in love triangles and/or rectangles till the bitter end, maybe she can be married off to Jack in some alternate time line where the crash didn't happen or working for Charles Widmore's research projects or something like that. Elizabeth Mitchell is simply too good an actress to be killed off, particularly since the purpose of the bomb detonating was to reset the path of everyone's lives beginning in 1977.

#19. Posted by: unladenswallow at May 14, 2009 3:24 AM

Couldn't sleep without checking the blog! Mind is going a mile a minute. Cried like a baby during the final scene between Juliet and Sawyer. Hope to see them all next season. Looking forward to reading the other posts.

One more note...Jacob was wearing a WHITE shirt and man #2 was wearing BLACK shirt...a recurring theme? Wasnt't there a b&w backammon game between Locke and Walt in season one?

#20. Posted by: kimberly at May 14, 2009 3:25 AM

Toward the end, when Jacob says, "They're coming" - do you think he was referring to more of those "What did you see" teaser clips?

#21. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2009 3:26 AM

still awake can't stop thinking about the show....Walt tells Locke at their last encounter that he had a dream that people are surrounding Locke and want to hurt him. Jacob says "They're Coming"...could be connnected? And why would Jacob warn man #2 they're coming if he is his adversary?

#22. Posted by: kimberly at May 14, 2009 3:32 AM

At first I thought that the fish that Jacob caught was going to be a big clue but it turned out to just be a red herring. [8^)

#23. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2009 3:35 AM

I think there will be much to rehash but there is one important thing I HAVE to point out...why does everyone assume Juliet is dead? Her fate will be the same as all the other Losties...if they flash, so will she...they are all close enough to the bomb to die from it being detonated. If you think she is going to die from her injuries then I remind you the island heals. :) That said, I also think it was important that Jacob touched everyone in some way/some how. The only one in the past he didn't touch? Juliet. :(

Jacob was definitely referring to the Losties as the ones who were coming. This leads me to believe he knew all along what was happening. He had to have known b/c of all the work he did going to visit, etc. Why then did he save/revive Locke? Interesting...Also, for being so smart he was REALLY stupid to say to Ben, "What about you?"

Once they showed Frank look in the box I knew it was Locke. Locke just became more and more evil as the episode went on.

#24. Posted by: Shana Roberson at May 14, 2009 3:35 AM

Very funny line:

New Locke to Ben: Can I ask you something?
Ben: I'm a Pisces

#25. Posted by: phg at May 14, 2009 3:52 AM

I'm kind of a classics guy, so I thought I would chime in with these little nuggets.

1 - The Latin that Richard spoke (assuming he said servabit, which is in the third person singular - I haven't rewatched it to make sure) is "He who will save us all," and not "he whom we will all serve."

2 - In the opening scene where Jacob is weaving, the Greek above the eye of Ra/Horus is from Homer's Odyssey (6.180), and means roughly, "May the gods give you as much as you want."

Now I've finally contributed something to this blog, which has provided so many answers to me over the years.

#26. Posted by: Egyptian Guyliner at May 14, 2009 3:54 AM

@24 Shana Roberson "The only one in the past he didn't touch? Juliet."

I noticed that as well and thought it courious. I even watched Juliet's flashback a second time to see if I had somehow missed seeing Jacob in it.

With the exception of Hurley's, each of the flashbacks were pretty much pointless except to show an interaction with Jacob. This served only to make Jacob's lack of appearance in Juliet's f/b that more glaring.

#27. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2009 3:58 AM

Still can't sleep, I know that Jacob didn't appear in Juliet's past, but come on Darlton keep Juliet on the show. Nobody within several miles of that blast should have survived, and besides there is precedent, Desmond survived the implosion of the hatch, maybe something similar will happen to Juliet.

#28. Posted by: unladenswallow at May 14, 2009 4:12 AM

Well Richard, recruited Juliet, probably on Jacob's orders....so Juliet is key and I hope she will be back! Sawyer would be a really tragic character if he did not.

I am also thinking now way back when...the way Locke asked Sawyer to kill his dad was eerily similar to Locke 2 convincing of Ben.

10 months....

#29. Posted by: Dito at May 14, 2009 4:17 AM

When characters on the show have referred to an old feud (most recently Ms Hawking when speaking to Penny) I had always assumed it was in reference to Ben Linus vs Charles Widmore. I guess now we know it is even older than that - Jacob vs Man #2.

#30. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2009 4:20 AM

It seems like they're doing a Good vs. Evil thing with Jacob and Man #2 (like I thought they were doing with Ben and Widmore).

Jacob wants to bring people to the island and let them fight it out, hoping some progress is made. Man #2 wants... Jacob dead?

I don't know if it's just the white / black theme, but I wonder if Jacob is the good guy in that scenario. (Ben and more recently the Jacobites have been saying "we're the good guys" all this time.

Or maybe they're both bad.

RE: Sayid getting the pointy end of the Jacob stick - he was about to cross the street WITH Nadia when Jacob distracted him. So Jacob saved his life. Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen...

So, if Richard's people (and Ben, until the whole murder thing) are on Jacob's side does that mean Whidmore is on Man #2's side?

And does any of it matter since everyone on the whole island is (a) dead (b) living their crash-free lives in LA (c) sitting around in 1973 wondering who turned on the bright lights?

Argh!

#31. Posted by: Michael Moncur at May 14, 2009 5:31 AM

NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
I concur with you Mac. I've always luuurved Juliet. I cannot believe she's gone. It was one of, if not the best episode of LOST. A bit confusing with Man#2 and Mr. J, but all in all and after watching it again and again it starts to make sense. Now I can't believe i have to wait another chucking 8 months to watch LOST aganin. AARRRGGHH!!! now with that said, these end of season events make season 6 look more and more like the best season of any series EVAHH!!!
MUAH HA HA....
Take care Mac and have a good one.

#32. Posted by: mapache at May 14, 2009 6:18 AM

Wow! And just when we felt like we were getting some answers...great job Darlton and GRAA, Mac!

Could it be that Jacob and Man #2 are having some kind of debate about the state of mankind? Jacob keeps setting up these groups to try and prove that there is still some goodness/faith/moralitiy left in the human race. When Jacob gives up trying then it "ends." He said to Man #2, "it only ends once. anything before that is progress."

I also think that maybe Rose and Bernard will be "the saviors of mankind" since they are choosing the high road and staying out of the fray. They chose love and peace and faith in each other.

I think that Man #2 may be an incarnation of Smokey. I have to ponder that more but that was my first thought. Does anyone agree?

Final thought for now...what purpose did Jin and Sun serve this season? Anyone...Bueller?

Can't wait to read all of your thoughts!

#33. Posted by: lost2theworld at May 14, 2009 7:13 AM

Mac...once again a terrific review! I actually snorted a couple of times trying to suppress my chuckling at my desk this morning. Great stuff! Thanks for a great season!

Just a few things for now...

re: #7 AK Jacob looks like Charlie... I thought the same thing as they first showed Jacob in the openning scene. From a profile angle, I thought it was Charlie...

Before last night, I have only sobbed during 3 scenes in all the past seasons...1. When Walt was taken. (Very sad and scary for any parent to watch.) 2. When Charlie died. 3. Sun's reaction to the freighter explosion. Now, it is 4 scenes. The scene with Juliet and Sawyer felt like someone ripping my heart out of my chest. I have never truly been a Juliet fan...haven't trusted her from the beginning and I have always thought she was hard to read. (Hence, the mistrust.) I have to say that the emotions she showed while barely hanging on to Sawyer's hand sent me to tears. I actually felt something from Juliet...wow...she really does love James!! So, now on the Juliet wagon...not only do I want her to be alive, but I want her to reunite with the "love of her life"...Sawyer...

Another thought about Ben/Locke/Man #2 killing Jacob. I would not have thought that it would have been that easy to kill Jacob. I would have believed that there would be some kind of supernatural protection over him...that he was a little above just being human...that he would at least have a body guard or two around...

#34. Posted by: boodle at May 14, 2009 7:21 AM

Just one thing. Obviously the Dharma/Oceanic people did survive, because in a previous episode Sir Richard Alpert told Locke that he watched them all die. Since he wasn't at the bomb/orchid incident, then I assume he watches them die in the ensuing war to be shown next season!

Long 8 months ahead...

#35. Posted by: soxy1824 at May 14, 2009 7:25 AM

Still reeling from the Juliet plunge. Gut wrenching. If she doesn't come back somehow then Sawyer will turn back to the dark side...

The Jacob/Man#2 (give this guy a name already) interaction reminded me of the old Greek myths where the gods would just f*** with people for their own enjoyment. Essentially using them as pawns for their own purposes.

Got to think that Ben was supposed to / needed to kill Jacob since J brought it on himself so obviously. He must want to come back and go mano a mano with Faux Locke.

Kinda sad that 'real' Locke was really just a chump in the end.... :(

#36. Posted by: GuylinerEnvy at May 14, 2009 7:37 AM

I, for one, am thoroughly satisfied with this season. We all yammered for a “Jacob Story” - we got one. We wondered how Dr. Chang lost his arm - we found out. We got a boatload of answers (no pun intended) about not only folks, but also events. And again, for the second season in a row - a box contained Locke. And for the fifth season in a row, the first advance trailer for next season starts with an eyeball.
AND Bcre8ve and showed up! Truly a treat!

We got a great gunfight! Obviously on the island, every handgun has 37 bullets and luckily every Dharma suit has extra magazines sewed into their pockets. Flaming spears and rebar - great name for a rock band. Dharma guys are lousy shots. However, it’s a bit unsettling to know that if this is typical, every time I get on a plane each weekend there are at least a dozen passengers who lead mundane lives on the ground, but could be a combination of Sgt. Rock and Chuck Norris in your next island vacation.

On the flip side, apparently, my favorite gal doctor ic kaput - but YOU NEVER KNOW with these writers. Like a writer before, I agree that Sawyer’s scream of utter despair was right up there with Sun's.

Very disturbing ending with Locke. I’m not sure I’m ready for the DARK SIDE of Locke and maybe, the good side of Ben. Having missed the last two blog weeks, I’m looking forward to reading today . . . before I get on another plane tomorrow.

#37. Posted by: davidrh at May 14, 2009 7:46 AM

Just a thought but Rose and Bernards hut did look very much like Jacobs hut that the Ajirans torched later in the show.
Maybe because they were the ones who avoided all the conflict they and their efforts wre special to Jacob?
what do you all think?

#38. Posted by: Monkphish at May 14, 2009 7:48 AM

Way too many thoughts to sift through but don't forgot "the island won't let you die" comments made in the past.

It must breakdown to the turning point in your life that made you who you are. Kate continued to lie, Sawyer finished his letter - after both agreed not too. What happened that at such a young age they couldn't find the right path to follow. On the other hand, you've got Sun accepting Jin unconditionally. There were no promises made at that meeting. Hurley traveled on blind faith alone. Where's the common denominator?

Going to work now. Hope everyone enjoys the day.

#39. Posted by: pebspostal at May 14, 2009 7:48 AM

Great Review as usual!! I have been a huge LOST fan from the start and a huge defender of the show from people that dont watch/understand... I have one question from last nights finale and maybe it's a dumb one, but I haven't seen it addressed yet--- How is Locke's body in that crate? Wasn't he in the coffin that was transported on the plane wearing the suit? Did I miss something here? Is there 2 dead Locke bodies? Also, I don't believe Julliette is dead either.. All we saw was a flash...

#40. Posted by: Joey John at May 14, 2009 7:52 AM

Best line:

Sawyer after the nuke didn't explode, something to the effect of:

"This sure ain't LAX"

Only line last night that I laughed out loud.

#41. Posted by: fuber at May 14, 2009 8:04 AM

Having watched the first sequence again a few minutes ago, I do have one question.

What on earth could have happened - prior to the 1977 supposed explosion/incident - that could have, not only toppled, but also erased all remains of the giant statue? Good grief, there was bound to be a lot of debris from it’s destruction. Where is it?

At least in “Planet of the Apes” the statue appears to be all there, albeit buried in centuries of dirt. Here we get the base and one foot.

I suppose it could have fallen forward into the ocean, but how deep is that beach?

Just wondering. Don’t expect an answer.

#42. Posted by: davidrh at May 14, 2009 8:07 AM

okay, you juilet lovers there is hope, my thought is:

maybe the bomb doesnt go off and the bright light we see is the first time the hatch releases its full energy kinda like when the hatch blows up and we find a naked desmond, what is that season 2 or 3? will we find a naked juilet?

other thoughts:
- i think sayids g/f or wife or whatever gets mowed down b/c of jacob b/c she stops to see why he is not coming, that is ala juilet and her mean x hubby in florida.

- i think that locke is a reincarnation of number 2 with the comment of you found the loophole. and perhaps the loophole is you cannot come back in the same body you left in (ie you need a vessel like someone who dies - think christan or locke) but can resurrect once back on the island or somethign like that.

- rose and bernard are the greek chorus of sorts of which we have had alot of especially in this past season (like hurley asking questions to miles about travel).. they ask questions or provide thougths that us the audience wants to have answer. i caught some of the preview/recap show and the producers seemed to me to embrace this thought

- is the sailing ship the blackrock? if so, are they the orginal others, or are there other others?

- what language was illana and jacob speaking.

i have to watch i again.

is the s

#43. Posted by: lostatwork at May 14, 2009 8:14 AM

GReat Mac

I cannot believe no one mentioned seeing Juliet's single eye with a white background after the Bad Robot Credit!!
That was definitely HER.

She may be alive--- I think all back in 1977.

They are leaving it open as to whether it will be Sayid or Juliet who died. Won't know until after the "V" pilot movie and then decisions, secret contracts--- but them when the list of Major Actors comes out. I think they (TPTB) don't know yet. They have their plans/ outlines of Season 6, but the scripts have not been written.

Mathew Fox says he knows the last scene of the series (as rumors are it was shot with Walt when Walt was younger).

Those that Jacob touched in the past were given the "gift" of coming to the Island to be saved--- to not being LOST [eople anymore. His telling Locke after his 8 story fall he's sorry-- says old Locke is dead. I think New Bad Locke (possessed by Man #2) will lose favor with the Others, escape with Ben. Man #2 is Smokey, used all to manipulate all. Maybe Bad Locke & Ben will convince Jack and Lostie crew to become allies against Richard and Ilia. Whitmore will send men to help Man #2/Smokey.

By Bus Said

#44. Posted by: Bus Said at May 14, 2009 8:15 AM

I obviously did not mean "I think all back in 1977." They will be back in 2007. Sorry

#45. Posted by: Bus Said at May 14, 2009 8:17 AM

Every great fantasy epic ultimately comes down to the conflict between good/white and black/evil. For 5 years, TPTB has played this close to the vest, but I think last night they finally turned over their cards.

Last season, we speculated that the spectral Christian was actually a malevolent spirit who had displaced Jacob in a battle for control of the island.

Part of the basis for that idea was the biblical story of Jacob vs. his brother Esau, battling over their birthright (i.e. the island).

Connecting the dots to the ongoing Eygptian motif running through this season, the Jacob-Esau conflict can be seen as a revision of the Egyptian story of Osiris and his brother Set, (or for Apollo bar lovers, the conflict between Apollo and his brother Dionysus).

I'm going to suggest that Man #2 is Jacob's brother, and that the Lost team is presenting the ancient story of the favored son (Jacob, Apollo, Osiris), who represents light, progress, civilization and intelligence, vs. the unfavored and angry son (Esau, Set, Dionysus) who represents the hunter, the old naturalistic ways, the dark, and sometimes, evil.

Jacob (in the bible the father of the tribes of Israel) is establishing his "list" and assembling his people. It now seems that Jack, Kate, Sawyer, etc. were always unknowingly on Jacob's list.

Esau/Set is trying to return to the old ways, to usurp his brother and prevent progress. If Esau/Set was reanimating Christian, then the events he placed into motion- the seperation of Claire and Aaron, the moving of the island, the setting up of Locke's death at Ben's hands, the ghostly visits that started Jack's return to the island- were part of a massive manipulation scheme designed to overthrow his brother.

Even in death, Locke is nothing but an easily manipulated pawn, and last night's events gave new clarity to the child Locke's "dalai" test when he selected the knife (Esau) over the Book of Laws (Jacob).

Last night also showed Ben's whole life path not as the Manipulator, but the manipulated, just another game piece ("what about you?").

So much to chew on here, but Widmore, on the opposite side of the Ajirans/Richard/Jacob, seems to be in fact one of the bad guys, working for Easu Set to put the Locke resurrection events into motion. Given that Hawking also contributed with the "take Locke's corpse back and make him wear these shoes" idea, does this mean poor Elli is on the side of evil as well?

Finally, can Esau Set actually be Smokey? A protector of the island, but an enemy of Jacob?

#46. Posted by: Mizzed at May 14, 2009 8:17 AM

The god Sobek, which was depicted as a crocodile or a man with the head of a crocodile was a powerful and frightening deity; in some Egyptian creation myths, it was Sobek who first came out of the waters of chaos to create the world. As a creator god, he was occasionally linked with the sun god Ra.
Gradually, Sobek also came to symbolize the produce of the Nile and the fertility that it brought to the land; its status thus became more ambiguous.[2] Sometimes the ferocity of a crocodile was seen in a positive light, Sobek in these circumstances was considered the army's patron, as a representation of strength and power.
Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part. In this way, he was seen as a more primal god, eventually becoming regarded as an avatar of the primal god Amun, who at that time was considered the chief god. When his identity finally merged, Amun had become merged himself with Ra to become Amun-Ra, so Sobek, as an avatar of Amun-Ra, was known as Sobek-Ra.
(From Wikipedia)

So we have a creator god who symbolizes strength and power, but is not really a force for good himself, instead he is seen as having a more distant role, nudging things along. (Yes I know I'm slicing and dicing to my own ends here). Does this sound like anyone we've seen? Jacob perhaps?

#47. Posted by: Tom at May 14, 2009 8:17 AM

I think Jack and Lostie crew gradually figuring out about Bad Locke and change sides in the war.

Ben will kill Bad Locke/Smokey in the last 10 minutes of the series (A year from now :(

I'm done-- bye

#48. Posted by: Bus Said at May 14, 2009 8:23 AM

@Mizzed -- Nicely done. I'm absolutely on board with that analysis. In the brief exchanges we witnessed between Jacob and Man #2, a "competing siblings" vibe was certainly possible.

#49. Posted by: mac at May 14, 2009 8:25 AM

Mac- amazing review. You stayed in the earnest language of a true fan on this one and I'm right there with you.

Predictions:
- The Bomb/Incident causes a FOOM for the O6. Brings them to the present on the island.
- The "They" they Jacob refers to are the O6 that he has touched/annointed for survival to the conclusion of the show.
- Juliette is dead. ***Sniff***
- Man #2/New Locke/Smokey are the same thing. Not sure about Christian/Claire but I bet they fit in there too.
- Richard's allies and O6 will merge in season 6 to defeat New Locke to save the world.

#50. Posted by: rinz at May 14, 2009 8:31 AM

Something still doesn't add up between Jacob's interaction with the oceanics. If he knows they're coming as a result of the thermonuclear "incident", how is Juliet accounted for as being the catalyst (bomb is a dud unless she manually detonates it) for their arrival without a past "nudge" from Jacob?

@24 ...Also, for being so smart he was REALLY stupid to say to Ben, "What about you?"

Maybe Jacob knows he has to die to eventually get rid of #2, and he had to push that final Ben button to seal the deed.

One final thought. Has anyone noticed that every plan Sayid has ever come up with failed? By now Hugo should be saying, "Dude, you're shootin' an oh-fer".

#51. Posted by: cmileham at May 14, 2009 8:37 AM

Great episode and review..

What lies in the shadow of the statue: Jacob = He who will save us all

My theory: Jacob good spirit, Nameless: Evil representing God vs satan working on island representing universe..All along Evil has been influencing all these poeple including the others in the name of Jacob..I think all those instructions, lists, all that came from him and not Jacob..Jacob is their savior but works not by direct influence but letting love and free choice and goodwill in poeple guide their actions.

I think this is what season 6 will be about:

Humans tend to think that whatever bad they do is their own thought processes and can be overcome/prevented by the good/kindness in them (via God's influence)..but what if your thought processes are all influenced by evil spirit and you overcome that by your own goodwill/choice/spirit (that is God does not have direct influence in protecting you from evil's influence but just helps you)..Mr.Nameless or Satan has been planting events in all these poeples' lives and directing their paths in this whole scheme of events to defeat God/Jacob..But Jacob has faith that these poeple will in the end make choices based on love and goodwill and It will end in God's victory

#52. Posted by: Jag at May 14, 2009 8:40 AM

Wow! I can't believe this is the first time I've found this blog! What a great recap and excellent conversation. Y'all are smart! I also really admire the tone--too often at other LOST discussion threads, people can be really mean to each other, and y'all are really nice.

Anyways, that was also one of my favorite episodes, and I think we really are getting down to the end. I like to think, though, that white and black does not necessarily mean good and bad. I think that the whole show has really been about how both sides of the coin are necessary: we need the man of science and the man of faith (and when Jack becomes the man of faith, do you see how Sawyer stepped in to be the man of science?). So maybe Jacob is not so good and Man #2 has good reasons for disagreeing with him and wanting him gone. Also, Kate, Sawyer, Jin, a lot of the LOSTIES are pretty "bad" in a lot of ways, not to mention the Others (does the Purge still happen in the new timeline?) I mean, new Locke certainly doesn't appear to be a very pleasant guy, so this might shoot my theory down, but still, I would be suspicious of the good/bad dichotomy. If this show has been anything, it hasn't been simple.

And one more big question: if the new timeline is totally reset in 1977, doesn't that mean Locke never hit the island either, which probably means he didn't kill Jacob? I'm just saying.

#53. Posted by: JeffyGFunk at May 14, 2009 8:44 AM

something that caught my eye -- of all things (this is all i am able to process yet of the episode -- wow!!! i need a re-watch) but ONE thing that stuck out -- did anyone notice Juliet's sudden change in shirt colour? For the last few episodes, since atleast "The Variable", she was wearing a red shirt. In this episode, she is wearing a bright pink shirt -- same shirt, different colour.
harmless continuity error? seems too obvious to be, really... any thoughts on if i'm looking w too critical an eye -- or is there something more going on here with these continued 'continuity errors' that keep popping up?

and what happened to young ben?! will we ever see, next season what happened in the Temple until he arrives back in Dharma -- if ever??

AWesome recap!! I have really enjoyed reading all season! Can't wait to come back next year!!

#54. Posted by: vintaag at May 14, 2009 8:50 AM

One of the things that ealgumby & I talked about last night was how this episode reminded us in some ways of one of the classic Star Trek episodes, "The Alternative Factor." I've brought up that episode here before, but in light of last night's episode there are some interesting things that bear repeating:

One is the title itself, "The Alternative Factor." Is one of LOST's character an/the alternative factor, thus changing the timeline?

Another is the name of the protagonist(s) in the ST episode, Lazarus. The biblical Lazarus is famous for rising from the dead. We've been told "dead is dead" in the LOST world, but even leaving Locke aside, who apparently is really dead, a number of characters who should have died have not, & could be viewed as metaphorically rising from the dead. Additionally, the ST episode features two Lazaruses (Lazarii?), one rational, the other "a madman from an anti-matter universe" (I'm quoting from "The Star Trek Compendium," by Allen Asherman). Jacob & Man #2?

Finally, the ST episode ends w/Kirk helping the sane "Lazarus in trapping his insane counterpart in a dimensional corridor between the two universes, thus assuring the safety of both universes. The two Lazaruses will remain locked in combat throughout eternity." Are Jacob & Man #2 trapped on the island, w/Man #2 continually searching for a way off the island—a loophole—while Jacob is sacrificing himself to keep the world safe?

Not sure just how much this plays into LOST, but some interesting parallels, at least.


#55. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 14, 2009 8:52 AM

Couple of things in relation to discussions above:

(1) Jacob did not visit Juliet or appear in any of her flashbacks. Her FB last night was intended to explain her attempt to cut Sawyer loose.... a la her parents' explanation that sometimes when people love each other it doesn't always mean they are meant to be together. Given that bit of character backstory and the fact that she was not visited/touched by Jacob (and the fact that she was never an original part of the cast) might mean that her story is over.

(2) Does the explosion only change things from that point on? I mean what about Daniel and Charlotte? What about Charlie? Mr Eko? Boone? They all died on the island, but some in 2004, some in 1977. hum.

(3) Just for the record, a big shout out to the casting agents - the little girl that played young Kate was PERFECT!

Thanks, Mac for all you do. This blog is the Best. is it really going to be 8 or 9 months? gulp.

#56. Posted by: GatorGal at May 14, 2009 8:54 AM

Rose to Kate .... "What is it with you people anyway?" Kate had that Seinfeld (I'm trying not to laugh) look on her face.

#57. Posted by: lostsox at May 14, 2009 8:56 AM

Yes, bcre8ve, I also noticed Jacob was wearing white and Man #2 was wearing black. White = good, Black = Evil. I also noticed at the end, the screen was white when in all past episodes it has been black and LOST was black when in all past episodes it has been white.

I also agree with Jag, that Jacob (godlike) vs. Man #2 (satanlike), that they are fighting each other on the island (universe).

Great episode and great review!

#58. Posted by: lostie1973 at May 14, 2009 8:57 AM

Smokey only judged Ben for his guilt of daughter and then told him he MUST obey Locke. Smokey is Man #2, evil/ black, who becomes people, and now has become Bad Locke. Good Locke is gone for good--- (what if he were the Major that died?????) Smokey is getting reinforcements from Whidmore soon, he also manipulated by greed/ power.

If Smokey were good, Ben would have been judged for his murderous ways, instead Ben is manipulated to help/ obey Bad Locke/Smokey.

#59. Posted by: Bus Said at May 14, 2009 9:16 AM

GRAA Mac! Basement apt, heeheehee! Maybe Locke's living in a deeluxe apt in the sky after all.

Nice to see some new and familiar names again as well -– Mister_Grimm, bcre8ve. Red herring – too funny!

@Alais – Lazarii. Good one!

Other good lines from the epi. Frank: "Terrific" and I laughed when Juliet said, "Live together, die alone."

Can't believe we had a finale without Penny Widmore. First since season 1, I think.

Love how Hugo comes to the rescue again with a Dharma van.

#60. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 14, 2009 9:16 AM

ok my head

#61. Posted by: LostFAN at May 14, 2009 9:24 AM

**** LONG POST ALERT ****

GRAA Mac...Outstanding job summarizing an extraordinarily complex finale.

I have loved Juliet from Day 1. Stood up for her, defended her, but she is dead, dying in a blaze of glory in the ultimate act of self-sacrifice. And this act, I believe, is what Jacob hoped for. That people are inherently good, although easily drawn to the easy less-than-virtuous shiny bauble of personal and instant gratification.

I really really like the Jacob/Esau dynamic. GReat call Mizzed. I vote that we call Man # 2 Esau henceforth to save typing.

Seemed to me that Jacob and Esau had had that conversation many many times. And that the summoning of the Black Rock (we're pretty sure that's what that ship was, aren't we?) is the opening move in a cosmic chess game that these two have been playing for millenia.Seemed to me that all of our Losties are the chess pieces that Jacob and Esau move around the board...pawns, bishops, knights, rooks.

I also felt that Jacob and Esau were incapable of delivering a blow directly to the other. The Rules, so to speak. I mean, Bobby Fischer never punched Boris Spassky, did he?

So to deliver the coup de grace, Esau had to "become" Locke, setting up pawn Ben Linus to deliver the fatal blow. And that would explain Jacob's telling Ben that he has free will, that he doesn't have to pull a Jason Voorhees. But Ben slays Jacob for his own petty delight, possibly proving Esau right, but Jacob had already put his pieces into motion, so his own personal sacrifice (a common move in chess to sacrifice a piece to capture one of your opponent's pieces) put the game into the final chapter (or season).

What wold make a lot of sense to me is that setting of the bomb is what always happened like Miles said, and like I said several episodes ago. Season Six may very well be a repeat of Seasons 1-5, ending with the O6 NOT setting off the bomb.

*** END OF LONG POST ALERT ***

#62. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 14, 2009 9:26 AM

after mac's synopsis, my second favorite part of this blog is the second post in the comments, which always say "first!" thanks for the laughs, intentional or unintentional.

#63. Posted by: captainsandwich at May 14, 2009 9:26 AM

When Desmond used the failsafe, there was a big flash of white light, and Desmond wakes up naked in the jungle.
Does anyone think that we will get to see Juliet wake up naked in the jungle?

I still believe that season 6 starts with Jack waking up on his back in the jungle. When he is will be the question.

#64. Posted by: steve at May 14, 2009 9:26 AM

Juliet. Sniff. I think dead is dead. Although Jacob didn't visit her, Richard did (good point @29/Dito), but that could have been so that she would be on the island to detonate Jughead, not because of any role in the final season's events.

One thing I noticed, maybe moot at this point, was that when she was saying goodbye to Rose and Bernard, she touched her stomach in that Alexian I might be pregnant kind of way. I suppose if she got zapped by the electro-magnetic radiation and time traveled before she got fried by the nuke, she could have survived, but I think it was too good of a dying scene to give it the ole "Dallas" treatment.

Agree it was a great reaction shot by Josh Holloway. Also got chills when Sawyer said he decided not to go on the sub to try to prevent his parents' deaths because what's done is done.

#65. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 14, 2009 9:30 AM

OMG. 60 posts already and I just finished reading Mac's report! So much to say. So much I don't want to say because others probably have already said it. I'll read up and then post my comments.

#66. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 9:32 AM

1. for all of Jacob's illusive powers, he seemed pretty easy to kill. I wonder why Man #2 didn't/couldn't do it when Ben did it easily.

2. I hope Juliette makes it altho I think her match w/ Sawyer is odd. But she seems to make him a better person. Kate is a twit. Plus if Juliette is really dead, Sawyer will blame Jack. Hope the Island has lots of neosporin for that beat down.

3. I liked the Rose & Bernhard story line. While they must have been pretty stealth to have avoided the Others & Dharmaville for 3 years, the points they made about still fighting and guns, etc was dead on.

4. I wonder how Eloise Hawking got off the island. Richard referred to her as "our leader" right after he knocked her out.

#67. Posted by: elizabeth at May 14, 2009 9:33 AM

Excellent job on this blog!!! I've gained many insights into the show from the blogger and the commenters....thank you all!!!

I agree with the above posters about the Jacob & Man #2 - brother vs. brother
battling over their birthright. I'm also starting to wonder if Man #2 is the Smoke monster, and the incarnation of the dead Christian, Claire and Alex who visited various islanders on and off island. It seemed that Jacob "nudged" islanders as himself in different stages of their lives which ultimately led them to the island. Man #2 also "nudged" islanders to the island but he had to take on the form of the dead.

I think that Sun's and Jin's marriage and love will play a big role in season 6 which is why Jacob visited them at their wedding.

Whose ring did Jin find at the baby cradle at their old campsite?

#68. Posted by: Lexelle at May 14, 2009 9:34 AM

OK my brain hasn't stopped thinking about the finale and the puzzles in my head. here are my questions, plz some1 reply

- what was that ring sun found in the cradle?
- does the hatch contain all the stuff that was pulled in, in season 3? is juliet's body found in the hatch 30 years later?
- who ARE the others in the cave or whatever?
- how did the black rock get inwards the island and who were those ppl on it? why did they have dynamite?

ok here are some of my thoughts, the huge statue was probably blown up by this "incident", i dont think any1 dies. i think they will be sent to the present time however someone dead.

DR. chang speaks of an incident in all of his dharma videos i wonder if this was it and what happens to the rest of the ppl on the island, such as hostiles

#69. Posted by: LostFAN at May 14, 2009 9:35 AM

I didn't read through the comments—I am just that lazy. But I have a question if anyone can answer this one, or if anyone has an idea about this one.

... if Man#2 inhabits a form of the deceased John Locke... was Jacob inhabiting a form of Jack's deceased father Christian? It seems these two men/immortals/gods/aliens/whatever they are, Man#2 and Jacob, have this ability to give everyone a little push or even in the form of known people (Locke or Christian) they manipulate these pawns from their ivory towers–or stone basements.

#70. Posted by: dserdena at May 14, 2009 9:35 AM

@68: Jin found Charlie's ring in the baby cradle. It had a "DS" inscription -- standing for Drive Shaft, Charlie's band.

#71. Posted by: DJ Ativanex at May 14, 2009 9:36 AM

Been thinking, maybe the "major character death" wasn't Juliet or Sayid, but Locke. He was the only one who was actually confirmed to be dead (when Ilana and her buddies dumped him out of the box). Then again, maybe I'm just trying to find any possible excuse to hope that Juliet and Sayid aren't goners.

#72. Posted by: DC at May 14, 2009 9:36 AM

Mac, like the show itself, you brought your review to a whole new level this week. Man that was great--the island is a giant tube of Neosporin--HA!

Gotta get through all the comments yet but man that had to be the best two hours of television I've seen in a very long time...

#73. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 9:37 AM

@steve64

i posted that same thougth earlier in the morning

#74. Posted by: lostatwork at May 14, 2009 9:37 AM

Fantastic finale & recap.

After hearing buzz for the past few weeks that the powers-that-be were going to kill off a major character, I was gripped with fear that it may be Sawyer. I worked myself up into a state of panic, and watched the entire 2 hours with a pit in my stomach...waiting for the shoe to drop.

I cannot tell you how relieved I was that not only wasn't it Sawyer...but it was Juliette! I am shocked that so many of the fans on this blog were saddened by her death when it could have been someone else...like Hurley! Like Penny! Or, my worst case scenario, Sawyer.

I agree that the "death scene" (although we're not really sure she's a goner) was very well done, and the acting was heartbreaking. With 10 minutes left in the show I was able to exhale and relax knowing Sawyer would be back for Season 6.

Have a great summer, fall & winter- See you all in 2010. Thanks again, Mac!

#75. Posted by: Sillygirl0630 at May 14, 2009 9:42 AM

LAPIDUS is JACOB:

To get straight to the point, let's talk about soft-eyed Frank "J" Lapidus.

Love his hair style right?

Ilana says he's special too.

After all he keeps popping up in the right places.

Jacob dies in current body... thanks to Guy#2 henceforth known as the Anti-J.

However if Anti-J can live in another body like Locke. What's to stop "J"acob from doing the same.

In essence Frank "J" Lapidus is the next body "J"acob will inherit.

Don't believe, rewind to the first cabin scene when we get the first glimpse of Jacob Gone Wild...
...
...

Hair style look familar?

#76. Posted by: Anthony at May 14, 2009 9:50 AM

re- @68

I meant to ask- Whose ring did Sun find at the baby cradle at their old campsite?

#77. Posted by: Lexelle at May 14, 2009 9:53 AM

→ 68. Lexelle; 69. LostFAN; 71. DJ Ativanex: The ring in the cradle:

It was Charlie's ring, but the initials "DS" don't stand for DriveShaft. The ring belonged to Charlie's maternal great-grandfather, Dexter Stratton, & was first given to Liam, Charlie's older brother. Liam gave the ring to Charlie when he (Liam) was in the depths of drug & alcohol addiction because he thought Charlie would be a better caretaker for the ring. See Lostpedia for more details.

#78. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 14, 2009 9:54 AM

why was jacob TOUCHING everyone?? i only caught this on first pass, but jacob touches locke after the fall, on the shoulder. he and jack also briefly touch when they exchange the apollo bar.
will have to re-watch to see if he had physical contact with anyone else, but presumably, he did..

#79. Posted by: vintaag at May 14, 2009 9:55 AM

ANTR?

#80. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 14, 2009 9:55 AM

I think it's clear now that Darlton are making this a show about good and evil.

I think Man#2 has taken possession of bodies before. If you look closely he was the man John saw and heard the first time in the Cabin. And when he said "help me" he meant help me kill Jacob!!

I think he his loophole is he can possess dead bodies. Christion, Claire, Yemi, John Locke.

"That's my momma"

#81. Posted by: steve 2112 at May 14, 2009 9:56 AM

The World is Flat... Sike. The Same Applies with Time.

Straight to the point. It took centuries for mankind to discover that if u set sail around the world from Spain you can go in a complete circle and end up back in Spain.

Well time is like that too. Farday says its a straight line, well to a close observer it is. Step away and you'll see it bends and curves and does Six Flags-esque loop-de-loops forever.

And that's what each iteration of the J vs. Anti-J game is. Write "ball" cursive.

Now look at the "ll"'s. Notice how they loop? Now image that with three loops, or for loops or infinite loops.

Also notice where the loops intersect, junctures in time which may seem like deja vu, or could be points where you could affect what happened in the past or future.

Irregardless of what you do however you still travel along that loop-de-loop. until you reach the end.

In essence the last "l" in Ballllllll.

#82. Posted by: Anthony at May 14, 2009 9:58 AM

So, the fact that the ashe line was broken at the cabin ... and the piece of the tapestry (Jacob's) was stuck to the wall with Jacob's knife from the opening scene makes me wonder how long Jacob has been a prisoner / confined to his basement lair. What if he can project off the island to influence people, but he cannot leave his lair anymore to go anywhere else on the Island.

In agreement with an earlier post, I think that Man #2 has been using the cabin and the manifestations to influence the losties ... so what's to say that he hasn't been doing the same for a very long time? Maybe Richard would have noticed, maybe not?

#83. Posted by: Tom at May 14, 2009 10:00 AM

I just wanted to let you know that I LOVE your blog. You rock! I woke up early just to read it, and I was not disappointed. Congratulations!

#84. Posted by: Lilia at May 14, 2009 10:01 AM

My favorite lines from the ep:

Sun: Do you have any alcohol?
RA: I wish we did.

#85. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 14, 2009 10:02 AM

I think the ring that was in the cradle was Charlies ring. I have to go back to the DVDs to see if I'm right, but I am pretty sure that it is.


Can someone better explain the whole Man#2-John Locke meet up with Ben Linus and Jacob. Why does Jacob tell Ben—the man with the knife ready to kill him–that he has a choice and then seconds later spits in his face in a way and says "Who are you?" after Ben spills his heart out about being so loyal and following Jacobs every word with out ever seeing Jacob and hearing from him in person even though Ben is the leader. This who are you statement leads to Ben repeatedly stabbing Jacob. I can see that this is one of those Bible-like ultimate tests kind of thing going on in this story - where you take a man and you test him and you see what he will do - but then you have Jacob who is all knowing in a way who kind of just lets it happen - because there is a choice and he lets Ben choose to kill him.

I can see this is a whole - God/Devil(Good/Evil) thing and the Devil finding his way to kill God but having to use one of his own disciples kind of thing. But at the same time it makes no sense that if Jacob knew this was going to end this way that he would set a course with all the surviors - Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Jin/Sun/Sayid. I am confused and I can't wait 8 months too see next season.

#86. Posted by: Dserdena at May 14, 2009 10:06 AM

@86 Dserdena commented:

>I think the ring that was in the cradle was Charlies ring. I have to go back to the DVDs to see if I'm right, but I am pretty sure that it is.

Yes, Charlie took it off and left it in the cradle for little Aaron, when he (Charlie) was about to swim down to what he was pretty sure was his doom in the Looking Glass station.

Claire, however, failed to notice the ring when picking up Aaron to carry him on the trek to the radio station and hoped-for rescue.

#87. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 14, 2009 10:15 AM

I too would like to know what the whole Jacob touching people thing is about.

But what's more interesting the people that Darlton don't show Jacob touching.

Seems like most of people he's touched were on the island and then got off.

So when and how does he touch Michael, Walt, Ben, Charles, Eloise, oh and yes the man who the island isn't done with, DESMOND!

Also will Rose and Bernard be punished eventually for not following Jacob's "they come, they fight, blah blah blah" insert?

Better yet, how is it that way back in season one Rose just knew that Bernard was alive, and Bernard, being very old surviving through the Other 48 days?

We know Rose was cured of her cancer, so does she have the same commune that Locke has with the island? In season 4, she decided not to follow Locke to New Otherton... what does she know!?!?!?

My head hurts from so much thinking.

#88. Posted by: Anthony at May 14, 2009 10:16 AM

@11: liked your observation of jacob having physical contact with some of the losties but why not juilet and did he also come in contact with the other crash survivors on the plane? i know it would take a couple of episodes to show this but it would be interesting to see how he touched the lives of all the survivors.

i will be very very upset if sayid doesnt make it. that's my boo and i would really really miss his character, especially those mad sexy blow outs and black leather jackets. :)

why wasnt man #2 given a name?? i'm sure TPTB have a reason for not naming him yet but it help with the puzzle if we knew his name.

why was jacob so easy to kill if he his such a powerful being?? he seemed to just walk right into his own demise.....

did i mention i will really really miss sayid if he doesnt survive his gunshot wound? :)

namaste...

#89. Posted by: tiffani at May 14, 2009 10:17 AM

Hello all. I'm just looking for peoples' interpretations of the opening scen. Are we led to believe that the opening scene in this epiode - Jacob and Ebeneezer (it kind of fits) on the beach gazing at the oncoming Black Rock has happened (maybe many times) before? Is that what Ebeneezer means by "they" or is "they" more general, as in humankind (coming to the island fighting, corrupting, etc. since the beginning of time)? Does history keep looping, always with the same tragic downfall of mankind, and that's why Jacob is trying to put the right people in place under the right circumstances so that they eventually freely make the right choices, as to save their species?

A few lingering thoughts/questions:
-How does the Black Rock end up in the middle of the jungle?
-What is the significance of Sun finding Charlie's DS ring in Aaron's crib? Why bring up Charlie at this point in the show? I find that interesting, due to people's observations of Jacob resembling Charlie.
-Who exactly are the Ajirans? Other Others?

In closing, I certainly hope Desmond, Sun, and Jin get more screen time next season, something tells me they will.

#90. Posted by: Jacob's Ladder at May 14, 2009 10:18 AM

Ok, elephant in the room... when Illana and co. burned down the cabin... ANTP? (the dog) LOL. Longtime posters should figure that one out!

Great job Mac! I dont know what to do with myself until season 6 starts...any suggestions?

#91. Posted by: Three Men and a Baby ( I counted Hugo twice) at May 14, 2009 10:24 AM

GRAA. Few thoughts/questions...

@33, 44, 59. I agree that #2 is smokey. He's clearly in some battle with Jacob, and has been for a really long time. But one question is, has #2 always been smokey, or was he somehow banished/punished into becoming smokey?

Also, what was with the ash around Jacob's hut? I know it's been mentioned before, but I haven't totally understood it, was it to trap jacob and keep him in, or was it to protect him and keep #2 out?

Finally, it seemed to me like Jacob was in hiding, and had been for quite some time. The Ajira people said that he hadn't been in his hut for a long time, so I don't think we can really trust most of what we saw in this episode. I think that #2 has been plotting this for forever, and while Jacob has been in hiding, #2 has used his smokey powers of transformation to pretend to be Jacob to influence all of the events to get him to the point here he could have Jacob killed. Is it possible that the flashbacks we saw with Jacob were really just #2 playing Jacob?

Last but not least, we see that what's dead is dead is true, what about WHH?

#92. Posted by: Eric at May 14, 2009 10:25 AM

What the hell just happened? LOL.

#93. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 14, 2009 10:26 AM

ANTR?


Sure.


Jughead is the ring.

AAAAAUUUUGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


#94. Posted by: davidrh at May 14, 2009 10:27 AM

hey all, i haven't had time to read all the blogs so i don't know if anyone mentioned this or not but did you notice New Locke's expression to Jacob when Ben referenced New Locke to being treated as Moses???!!!! The look from New Locke seemed to serve a purpose, he looked at Jacob like he was amused that Ben said that? am i reading into the scene too much?? am i crazy...ah....it's going to be a long 8 months............

#95. Posted by: Chrissy at May 14, 2009 10:27 AM

SiF

Shikotee is first (bizatches)!!!!

Or maybe not... ;(

But that is what I wanted to post if the opportunity presented itself, which of course, it did not. And when I look at the time that the first comment was posted, I realize I made the right decision one hour earlier to go Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!

This episode was totally bat crazy wild!
Can't wait to re-watch!!!

Crazy fun/intense experience was to follow up on the #Lost channel on twitter during commercials. By the end of the episode, the channel appeared to have crashed? I blame Juliet, cause she hammered the nuke!!! In any case - a very fun interactive experience, much better than watching advertisements!!

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, and it was the first thing on my mind. Will it turn out to be that Sayid dies in the 70's, leaning against a Dharma van, wearing a Dharma jumpsuit with the name "Roger Workman"? Could Sayid turn out to be Skeletor?

I totally was expecting this to be the case by the end of the episode! But then they appear to use the van to help Jack @Swan, so it could be a red herring. Did anyone notice if there was Dharma beer inside the van?

Hard to believe that S5 is gonzo, but it certainly was lots of fun!!!

And now - the meticulous nitpicking of the episode, so satisfy our hunger over many months!

Sigh.......

PS

My favorite line came from the 1 hour re-cap episode. "Who wouldn't love living in the 70's?"

Exactamungo!

#96. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2009 10:30 AM

The whole anti-J/New Locke character is interesting. It's not just Man #2 appearing as Locke. Much of Locke's personality and limited knowledge is still present. He asks why they are at the statue. Richard says it is where Jacob lives. Locke seemed to think that RA would take him to Jacob's cabin. Wouldn't man #2 know where Jacob lives? So while man #2 seems to be inhabiting Locke, he still seems to be limited somewhat but what Locke knew or understood at the time of his death.

I think the cabin was never Jacob's cabin as we and Locke were led to believe. Man #2 had been inprisoned there by Jacob. Ilana and Jacob's crew went to destroy man #2 by burning the cabin but he was gone. The line of ash was broken and he escaped.

I tend to agree with unladenswallow in post 19. I'm not sure Miles' theory that the bomb going off was the incident they needed to prevent. Wouldn't the bomb going off have made the island uninhabitable? It would have killed Chang--thus preventing him from making those films we saw where he has only one arm. If the bomb went off it would have to signify a change to the history we have already seen.
That said, I wonder if the light flash was actually the bomb going off or if the 06 just FOOMed as Juliette was striking it with the rock. I'm thinking the island may have FOOMed her and them as a way of course correcting and preserving the what happened, happened. The island FOOMed all of them to save itself. So if that happened and Jughead did not go off--then where will Jughead be in the present?

And Mizzed--like everyone else I love your analysis of Jacob/Esau and the other mythical sibling rivalries. Right on.

#97. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 10:30 AM

@21/bcre8ve: I think Jacob was referring to another Grey's Anatomy or Wipeout commercial!

@33/Lost2theworld: Sun was more active since she was off the island but she was needed to complete the O6 and she teamed up with Widmore to kill Ben. Jin was relegated to redshirt with a name (on a jumpsuit) as he was stuck in 1977.

#98. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 14, 2009 10:31 AM

After comparing the "eye" shot after they flashed 2010 ........

it is the EXACT eye that we see in the opening of season #1: Jack's eye.

Sorry it is NOT Juliette's eye.

So......is Jack waking up again on the island after the bomb goes off?

I think so......

Does 815 crash again OR does it land on the island?

#99. Posted by: Phil at May 14, 2009 10:33 AM

I have one quick question. Now, if we stick with the theory of what ever happend happend then we have to think that detonation of the bomb was an isolated event. The radius of the weapon could not have been that huge because Dr. Chang left by foot moments before Juilet set it off. I think Juilet dies because of the proximity to the bomb. It's also safe to say that Dr. Chang, the others, Darmaville, Rose and Benard (if they are allowed to remain in 1977) also live. I think that Jack and company will be sent back to 2007 and the war will ensue within the current time period. I think that the hatch will then be built to control the electromagnetic anomoly as planned.

There is one thing that has always confused me. Ben, Richard and the others will be responsible for the purge eventually. They decide to kill everyone from the Darma Initiative but why do they not go after the individuals in the Swan who are responsible for pushing the button. Can it be that they didnt know that they were there?

Episode was great overall. I believe that next season we will see everything play out as it always has. We will see that Darma will continue on its course and will eventually be destroyed. The producers of the show of constantly said the this show has always been about the characters and not about the Island. Look for the Series finale to be absolute and conclusive. We wont have a Sopranos fade to black ending.

#100. Posted by: Michaelmvp at May 14, 2009 10:37 AM

@ 98 Pieces of Arzt
I am so sick of that Grey's commercial with Dr. Bailey all teary eyed and overdramatic. I think I better not be around when my wife watches that episode this week as she'll kill me for laughing throughout it. That has to be the most ludicrously written show ever. Hate it.

That new show they keep advertising with "What did you see?" Did it look like the actress who plays Penny was in the commercial? I thought it was her but wasn't sure?

#101. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 10:40 AM

WWJJBBSSPP!!

(We Want Jolly Juliet Back By Season Six Premiere. Pronto!!)

#102. Posted by: PreacherOnun at May 14, 2009 10:41 AM

@33. Posted by: lost2theworld

Could it be that Jacob and Man #2 are having some kind of debate about the state of mankind? Jacob keeps setting up these groups to try and prove that there is still some goodness/faith/moralitiy left in the human race. When Jacob gives up trying then it "ends." He said to Man #2, "it only ends once. anything before that is progress."
I also think that maybe Rose and Bernard will be "the saviors of mankind" since they are choosing the high road and staying out of the fray. They chose love and peace and faith in each other.
I think that Man #2 may be an incarnation of Smokey. I have to ponder that more but that was my first thought. Does anyone agree?
Final thought for now...what purpose did Jin and Sun serve this season? Anyone...Bueller?
Can't wait to read all of your thoughts!
______________________________________

I agree with you on all points. I just posted similar over on the Lost Blog.

As for Jin And Sun, They are similar to Rose and Bernard in that they are now following Jacobs Advice and not taking what they have for granted. The fact that are apart and the journey they must make to be together may be symbolic of the journey man must make to get it right. As for now they are making progress.

#103. Posted by: steve at May 14, 2009 10:42 AM

@Phil #99 - I think Jack gets part of what he wants. The plane doesn't crash, so the people are saved. But the O5 (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and Sayid) plus Miles and Jin get FOOMED to 2007 to fight the rest of the war against Evil Locke.

#104. Posted by: rinz at May 14, 2009 10:51 AM

Did anyone besides me get a little aggravated at the flip flopping of Juliet and Kate about where or not to support Jack's being hellbent to blow up the island?

Perhaps the intent was to showcase the complex relationships of Juliet/Kate to Sawyer/Jack.

I'm kinda thinking that was Juliet's eye at the end too. Will freeze frame and study more later today...

#105. Posted by: Teddy Alvin at May 14, 2009 10:53 AM

my bet is on juliet actually being the first one to diffuse the electromagnetic energy. the bomb discharges it, but every 108 minutes, someone is going to have to do it again. HANG ON JULIET!! Don't die on me now, Blondie!!!

#106. Posted by: vintaag at May 14, 2009 10:53 AM

@ 100. Posted by: Michaelmvp

I have one quick question. Now, if we stick with the theory of what ever happend happend then we have to think that detonation of the bomb was an isolated event. The radius of the weapon could not have been that huge because Dr. Chang left by foot moments before Juilet set it off. I think Juilet dies because of the proximity to the bomb. It's also safe to say that Dr. Chang, the others, Darmaville, Rose and Benard (if they are allowed to remain in 1977) also live. I think that Jack and company will be sent back to 2007 and the war will ensue within the current time period. I think that the hatch will then be built to control the electromagnetic anomoly as planned.
_______________________________________

If The bomb negated the magnetic anomally as Daniel predicted, and IMO id does, then Juliet should appear naked in the jungle the same way Desmond appeared naked in the jungle when he detonated the bomb. There will be no need to build the hatch because there is no more anomaly. IMO - Juliet just used the fail safe, so they were able to change the course of things to come. They may not be able to change the crash on the island, but it would be a bummer if the plane was actually supposed to end up at the bottom of the ocean. Landing safely in LA was only an assumption.

As for the radius of the explosion. Very limited space would be involved given the nature of the magnetic event horizon alluded to by Daniels requirement to get the bomb as close to the anomaly as possible

#107. Posted by: steve at May 14, 2009 10:54 AM

I think that Jacob and Man #2 are Nephalim left over from biblical days, that have been banished to this "special" island. This would account for their powers of not aging, and taking on others bodies and such. Nephalim # 2 Has found a way to kill Jacob by getting a real human to do it. This is his loophole. He manipulates the people that Jacob brings to the island and finally gets the person he needs to do the deed in Linus. Dharma was built in the 70's, and it made for a new set of problems, because the Dharmies were not true Jacobites, so war ensued. The Oceanic people are just another group in a long history of groups that Jacob has brought to the island. Perhaps because they are long lost decendants of his? Of course Jacob has found a way to get off the island, but what about #2?

#108. Posted by: soxy1824 at May 14, 2009 11:00 AM

Ok, I've read all of the comments FINALLY. Phew! Here's my thoughts, based on everyone's postings and my observations:

1) I think Jacob and "Esau" are two sides of some coin, where neither can directly kill the other, and perhaps not even one degree separation indirectly. The fact that Esau says he wishes
2) Nobody has mentioned that Ben told Widmore he couldn't kill him, the same as "Esau" told Jacob. What are the implications there?
3)I think Jacob knew everything that "Esau" was putting in motion and Jacob himself put a ton of things in motion as well to counter what "Esau" had done. I think that is what they were showing us in having Jacob touch each of the Losties (although I don't know if Jack and Jacob touching the same candy bar counts or not). What I'm hypothesizing is that Jacob did the Obi-Wan dropping of the light saber routine in pushing Ben over the edge to kill him because he knew that the bomb would go off and reset everything to some other scenario. What that scenario is we obviously won't know until next season but the two game changers we saw, the bomb and Jacob's murder will likely turn out to be two counter-checkmates that slightly change everything and put in motion a "final end" to some type of endless loop that has been going on for eons between Jacob and "Esau".

As Mac (or someone else, can't remember) mentioned, Jacob and "Esau's" conversation at the beginning of the episode was likely the big clue as to where next season is going. Apparently the endless loop they're in involves some destiny or end game that Jacob would like to see come about that "Esau" has spent eternity watching Jacob try to bring about, with perhaps "Esau" doing his best to prevent it from happening. Jacob's response to "Esau's" statement of "it always ends the same" was that "the final end" was the only thing that mattered. What that likely means is that there's a way to break out of the loop and the "current" situation when the loop is broken is the only one that matters. Don't know if Jacob/"Esau" are traveling through "normal" time with us or are looping back through time over and over. I'm leaning towards the island and the two of them connecting with the present on a regular basis, with Jacob bringing people to the island to try to break the loop or curse or whatever it is and they've been doing it for a long long time.

I've got to say, I've got faith that TPTB have this story line plotted out down to the last episode, but I have to hand it to them. I just don't have even the first clue regarding what the first episode or two of next season will be. Lots of theories but nothing even semi-concrete as to what's, where's, when's, absolutely nothing right now.

#109. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 11:07 AM

Mac-

You are the bomb! I love your recaps and I also love that we share yet another thing in common: a love for Juliet. Sweet, sweet Juliet.

And, I'd like to add a shout out to the writers/producers/directors for their willingness to have a show with real females as real heroes who can stand on their own without the men and, at times, in spite of them.

I'm beginning to think that I need to get the whole series on DVD as soon as the series ends so that I can figure out what it all meant...

#110. Posted by: Kathryn at May 14, 2009 11:07 AM

Man....

Some weird blond haired dude just touched me, and offered me some words of comfort.

Should I be worried?

#111. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2009 11:09 AM

AIEEEEEE!!!!! So here I'd last said I'd gotten to post 60 and would read everything. I do that and post my thoughts. Then I go and find there's not 108 (hey, how interesting is that?) posts besides my latest post and that everything I said in my post was basically stated in the second post after mine back at 62 (ransomjackson)! If I'd have had that post to read when I wrote my post I'd likely not have incurred davidrh's upcoming wrath! ;)

#112. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 11:10 AM

105 Steve,


I agree about everything that you said but there was one scene in particular during the finale that refutes all of that. It's the scene where Locke is on the beach with Ben and asks him to take a look at the hatch door behind him. If the hatch door is still there then the swan station was indeed built afterall. The producers drop hints all of the time and I believe that a reference to the Hatch was made to directly imply that it was still built regardless of the Losties actions in 1977

#113. Posted by: Michaelmvp at May 14, 2009 11:10 AM

Correction, comment above should be in response to post 107 Steve not 105.

#114. Posted by: michaelmvp at May 14, 2009 11:11 AM

Oh, VERY important comment that I forgot to post:

Who was actually in "Jacob's Cabin"? Was it Jacob imprisoned in there or "Esau". Someone escaped from there. Which was was it?

#115. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 11:13 AM

Oh, here's another, and which might explain why it took so long for "Esau" to kill Jacob. Perhaps the statue was a shelter for Jacob from which "Esau" could not kill him and/or venture into without assistance. Richard was the only one allowed to bring anyone to Jacob and only the leader was allowed to enter. Nobody was supposed to accompany whomever entered. That likely was a rule put in place to prevent exactly what happened. The loophole, if you will.

#116. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 11:16 AM

A theory I'd like to build on is it's all like a game of chess between (as many of you have posted) Man in Black and Man in White. I think by touching the various Losties they are choosing their pawns.

I agree with the peeps who posit that Smokey is the Man in Black (RIP Johnny Cash, BTW). He appeared to Ben as his mother and was thus on his team. THAT'S why Jacob has never talked to him. That's why he chooses in the end to kill Jacob. It seem that once you're touched by one of the players you will always be in their court.

Smokey assumes the forms of dead bodies. I think the reason he has been manipulating others as Christian and has wanted Locke's body so much is that through all the time traveling jumps and his interaction with RA, Locke has assumed a position of power and influence. Notice how New Locke subtley is turning RA against the (pro Jacob) Ajirans.

This also makes the post above about the importance of Lapidis very important, as Smokey killed the first pilot in the first season. Coincidence? No...

I think if Jacob has "picked" a player, Smokey/Man#2 can't directly hurt them, but he still can manipulate them. He didn't kill Locke when they first met in Season 1, but he did show Locke something which heavily influenced him.

#117. Posted by: freckles at May 14, 2009 11:19 AM

Methinks Richard will end up being either an officer or crewman aboard the Blackrock.
Has anything been previously revealed that would contradict that?

#118. Posted by: dapeck at May 14, 2009 11:21 AM

@97: Crispy Seaplanes - I'm going to go with the concept that one unbelievably strong energy source (the island's innards) being breached can in fact be re-sealed by another unbelievably strong energy source (Jughead) as Farraday was theorizing. That is, until next season when all theories will likely be (pardon the pun) blown to bits anyhow...

#119. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 11:22 AM

Flaming fifty foot Jacob is lurking around touching people! Run for your lives!

#120. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 11:24 AM

28 @unladenswallow

"Desmond survived the implosion of the hatch, maybe something similar will happen to Juliet."

Yes, hopefully Juliet will appear naked in the jungle.

#121. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at May 14, 2009 11:25 AM

I think that the fish Jacob caught might not entirely be a red herring. Jacob would seem to be some very powerful ancient being. However he is not immortal. He needs to catch food for sustenance. So it would seem that he is not necessarily godlike or divine yet something more than human.

#122. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 11:30 AM

I just remembered, it was Smokey who revived Little Ben in the Temple, and also New Evil Locke who told Richard that Old Gullible Locke had to die. All this to bring Locke's body back so he could manipulate Richard and Ben and assume leadership of the Hostiles.

I agree with the above post that it was Smokey trapped in the cabin, not Jacob. Hence, that's why we saw Christian and Claire in there. More dead bodies he impersonates or inhabits.

Not sure whose side Widmore's on. He did try to help Locke bring the Oceanic 6 to the island, but he and (Smokey's pawn) Ben are enemies. So it seems he might be on Jacob's side.

I think also, if you choose to stay out of the game (Rose, Bernard, Danielle, Vincent) you get left alone. It does seem to be about choice

#123. Posted by: freckles at May 14, 2009 11:34 AM

@#33- lost2theworld... I was totally going for the Smokey/Undead Locke/ Esau/ Christian connection, too. I'm in on that one.

1. Anybody notice Locke's tee-shirt? Wasn't it black? Didn't he used to wear a dingy white one with sweat stains while channeling Obi-Locke?

Love the Black/ White symbolism that's been rocking all show. Sawyer has his black/ white reading glasses. Locke/ Walt play backgammon. Jacob/ Esau shirts and hair color, too. Rose and Bernard as a couple... Rose's "What is it with you people anyways?" made me snort with laughter.

2. Jacob- "What about you?" Oh no you dih-n't! Ben's bug eyes almost popped.

3. Great idea about Jacob touching people, including Richard to keep him so youthful a full of eyeliner. (Another snort at the Egyptian Guyliner moniker!)

4. No Juliet? Still have Kate? Say it ain't so, TPTB. I thought the Radzinsky minus eye and Chang minus hand and Des minus clothes ;) meant that Juliet had a chance. But then the Juliet minus Jacob made me sad all over again. Hang on Blondie, Hang on.

It'll be an excruciating wait 'til 2010 *gulp*. Love the posts and have a great summer, all.

#124. Posted by: lardiea at May 14, 2009 11:36 AM

@121: Alex (Not Rousseau) - I'm hoping for Alex instead... Juliet nice. Alex, nicER.

People have been saying that the ship we see at the beginning of the episode is the Black Rock. But that ship ended up in the middle of the island, likely when the island appeared under it in my estimation. So, as much as I'd like to think they tied that loose thread up nicely with a bow, it wouldn't explain how the Black Rock got into the middle of the island. Rousseau's ship? No, because it was wrecked in a storm if my memory (which usually fails me) serves. There were clear skies at the time of this ship passing through. Perhaps Rousseau's ship wrecked on rocks, not during a storm? I'll buy that one.

Here's another thought - So apparently Dead really is Dead. So where's Christian's body? If Christian and Locke are woven from the same thread so to speak, and cannot actually kill anyone (can anyone remember Lock killing anyone since his return from the dead?) are they both basically manifestations of "Esau"? What happened to the real "Esau"? How is it that he can manifest himself in the bodies of others? Nobody's mentioned that one so far. Did he "die" at some point? Has he always been "dead"? Is he Smokey, as some have been theorizing, manifesting himself as various dead people to suit his needs? What is the actual tie between Jacob and "Esau"? Brothers? Two sides of a coin? Good vs Evil? Master and slave? All-knowing being/g-d and the devil? There are many many permutations that are possible.

#125. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 11:40 AM

WOW! Head spinning! Does that mean the "fan favourite" who's dead is Locke?? Coz he kinda looked dead! As opposed to Juliet and Sayid ... never actually saw them die ... not to mention everyone else who should have got blown up in that group.

AS for New-Locke! What an awesome twist. I do assume that was the fork in the outlet twist? Did anyone see that coming? I would really be interested to know if anyone at all figured that ... prior to Frank seeing what was in the box ... and of course Ilana and crew emptying contents of the box on to the sand. Whatever the case, heaps better than Widmore being in the box, lol!

#126. Posted by: Lost-in-NZ at May 14, 2009 11:40 AM

I just realized, the first sentence of my post above doesn't correlate to the second. I meant that in reviving Little Ben, again Smokey is choosing him and influencing him.

And did anyone notice exactly how much Juliet wears the pants in her relationship with James? She says jump...Gotta love her! But it doesn't look good for her. That red shirt's a BAD sign. *Sigh.*

#127. Posted by: freckles at May 14, 2009 11:40 AM

I feel that Jacob may not necessarily be "good." He seems to have a snobbish tone to him when man # 2 says that he would like nothing more than to kill him. And I do find significance in the scene where Jacob is fishing. I believe that by showing that he is fishing, cooking, and eating that fish, it shows that he is indeed mortal.

#128. Posted by: Earl at May 14, 2009 11:42 AM

@122: Crispy Seaplanes - I agree that the body we see as Jacob must be human enough to need to eat. The question becomes can he really be killed? For that matter, Jacob basically goaded Ben into killing him. Why? There's something afoot with that incident inside the statue that (OMG, I just realized the pun I just made) isn't playing out exactly according to the plans of "Esau" as he thinks they are. Jacob has likely seen all of this coming and, as I mentioned in a previous post, put his own counter-plans in place, likely negating his own death but giving just enough time and distraction to what was happening in the past to allow some important change to occur that will lead to some kind of end game. Thus the name of the final season of "Destiny Fulfilled".

#129. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 11:45 AM

@123 freckles : >> Not sure whose side Widmore's on. He did try to help Locke bring the Oceanic 6 to the island, but he and (Smokey's pawn) Ben are enemies. So it seems he might be on Jacob's side. >>

We learned last night that the Ajirans are clearly on Jacob's side. This same group snatched up Miles off the street and told him that by working for Widmore Miles was "playing for the wrong team".

I have to take this to mean that Charles Widmore is not playing for "team Jacob"

#130. Posted by: vacc at May 14, 2009 11:48 AM

→ 125. Posted by: Lostedit

I think my chess theory (#117) above speaks to the black/white thing. I also recall how when Locke first shows up with the Ajirans at the bonfire he's swathed in a black blanket.

Interesting how Smokey/Esau ultimately rejected Ecko, a Black man. I think it's because although Ecko was a killer he had also come to peace with himself and could not be manipulated. Whereas Smokey deftly molded Ben like putty by using the form of his daughter.

p.s. My favorite line:

Hugo: There are men hunting me with tranquilizer guns and they want to bring me somewhere against my will1

Prison Clerk: There’s a cab stand right out front.

#131. Posted by: freckles at May 14, 2009 11:52 AM

@120/CrispySeaplanes: That's just The Sta-Puft Marshmallow Man! (And not Hurley!)

#132. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 14, 2009 11:53 AM

→ 130. Posted by: vacc

>


Good point! But I don't think it means he's on "team Esau/Smokey" either. He's against Ben, who I believe has always been on "team Smokey." I think Widmore's on "team Profit."

#133. Posted by: freckles at May 14, 2009 11:59 AM

Not sure Smokey and Esau are the same entity. If my thought that Esau was the one trapped in the cabin is correct then he can't be Smokey. Smokey has certainly been out and about for the duration of the series.

#134. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 12:03 PM

26. Posted by: Egyptian Guyliner

Thank you for the Greek! I have been looking at Greek letters and trying to translate all morning. Not easy to do.

#135. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2009 12:06 PM

@133: freckles - It would appear that Ben has been a pawn as much as Locke has, and that, at the very least, the Ajirans are on Jacob's side and Widmore perhaps is not although I'm not discounting his allegiances entirely just yet. He might be a pawn as well. Widmore says he's on the side of good but perhaps he's been on the side of ensuring that the things that have happened to date did in fact happen. He just didn't realize the implications of what he was doing. Perhaps he'd been deceived into thinking he was saving the island when in fact he was bringing about it's, or at least Jacob's, demise. For that matter, it would appear that the reason Ben was not allowed to meet Jacob was that he could not be trusted to be in the presence of Jacob. I'm venturing the hypothesis that Jacob had foreseen his death at Ben's hands all along but didn't know when it would happen so he couldn't allow Ben to meet him.

So many theories, too much time to think about them. 10 months to go...

#136. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 12:09 PM

@ 113. Posted by: Michaelmvp

If the hatch door is still there then the swan station was indeed built afterall. The producers drop hints all of the time and I believe that a reference to the Hatch was made to directly imply that it was still built regardless of the Losties actions in 1977
________________________________________

I should have been clearer. Your point is absolutely valid. The swan station will be built, I just theorize that the fail safe may not need to be implemented. If this is the case, what will Desmond have to do?

#137. Posted by: steve at May 14, 2009 12:14 PM

33. Posted by: lost2theworld

exactly what I was thinking. Jacob and the other guy seem to be looking for a reason to save mankind. Jacob being the optimist and Man #2 the pessimist. But who are they? And why the reason for Greek and Roman and Egyptian references? Maybe they tested these past civilizations too? Eventually man will blow the whole thing up and that will be the final end. Unless of course progress is made.

GRAA Mac. Always helps me put my thoughts in a row.

#138. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2009 12:15 PM

I found it very interesting that Ilana came to call looking for "Ricardus."

He corrected her saying, "It's Richard."

But then he answered her ("What lies...") in Latin, a language in which all the Others (per Juliet's own admission) were fluent.

Don't know what all that means...just very interesting.

#139. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 14, 2009 12:17 PM

@62 ransomjackson...

I disagree that detonating the bomb was always the incident (ala Miles). The original incident is what we saw played out... all the metal getting sucked down the hole, and in the process damaging Chang's arm. This allowed him to make the videotapes later, which showed his damaged arm.

If the original incident were an h-bomb going off, it would have damaged a lot more than Chang's arm.

That said... it will be sweet if the flash of white is the first hatch-like explosion, and Juliet wakes up naked in the forest!


I do agree that Man #2 is Smokey (which happens to be black), and he can take the shape of dead bodies on the island. Remember that when Ben was "judged", ghost-Alex and Bad-Locke were not seen together. Ben fell down the hole, and Bad-Locke went to get help. THEN Smokey appeared, and seemed to turn into ghost-Alex. Bad-Locke did not reappear until Smokey had vanished.

#140. Posted by: LostInConnecticut at May 14, 2009 12:20 PM

@134: Crispy Seaplanes - I keep rethinking this one. Are "Esau" and Smokey one and the same? It would seem that at the very least they both can manifest as dead people. Then again, as I said earlier perhaps the "Esau" we saw talking to Jacob at the beginning of the season finale was himself just another manifestation, leading back to Smokey actually being "Esau". But who was being imprisoned in "Jacob's Cabin"? Jacob or "Esau"? Certainly not Smokey because we've already seen his lair and he's been out and about since season 1 episode 1. So here's my thinking: It's not Jacob who was imprisoned there because he's actually been in the base of the statue this whole time. That leaves "Esau". But from Iliana's group's statements the cabin had been empty for some time now and that the prisoner had taken something with him/it. So was that escape performed before flight 815 crashed or after? That would give us an definite indication of whether "Esau" could in fact be Smokey or not. The implication to date has been that Smokey is a security system or judgment mechanism of some sort. So in thinking this through I'm leaning towards "Esau" as being the actual prisoner in "Jacob's Cabin". Further reinforcing this idea was the patch of woven material left behind with a knife through it. That was "Esau" leaving behind a clue saying "You're too late. I've escaped and I'm going to kill Jacob (in the parlor with the candlestick...)".

Note, these theories are subject change at any moment based on new information, the Earth, sun, and moon aligning with Mars, and what I had for lunch today...

#141. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 12:21 PM

favorite line (well sorta parapharsed)

sawyer: why didnt you guys join us after the attack, we were shouting for you

rose: sorry couldnt hear with all of the flaming arrows

#142. Posted by: lostatwork at May 14, 2009 12:21 PM

Sorry Mac,
this mind-bending finale made me forgetful in expressing my gratitude for another entertaining and introspective season of reviews. Well done and many thanks. Looking forward to the s6e1 review.

#143. Posted by: cmileham at May 14, 2009 12:26 PM

I think everyone on the Internet has something all wrong. It was never Jacob in the cabin, it was Actor #2 or the Dark Haired Nemisis of Jacob. Betcha I'm right... remember, Richard Alpert tell Not Locke that Jacob lives in the base of the statue...

#144. Posted by: Teddy Alvin at May 14, 2009 12:28 PM

1. is there any way that Jacob will now be inhabited by the spirit of Man#2/smoke monster now that he is "dead"? Or do the people he inhabits have to die off the island?

2. what is the significance of the final "LOST" closing screen being a white background with black letters -- the negative of the usual? Could this allude to some sort of reversal with good/evil or who we have been led to believe are good and evil?

#145. Posted by: Erin at May 14, 2009 12:30 PM

141. Posted by: LostedIt
I think Esau's escape was post crash of 815 as I think that is who good Locke saw the first time he went in the cabin with Ben.

#146. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 12:33 PM

Great episode, and GRAA MAC!

#147. Posted by: Speedmaster at May 14, 2009 12:37 PM

@122 Crispy Seaplanes said:

>I think that the fish Jacob caught might not entirely be a red herring. Jacob would seem to be some very powerful ancient being. However he is not immortal. He needs to catch food for sustenance. So it would seem that he is not necessarily godlike or divine yet something more than human.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

As far as I can tell, my alien-spaceship-crashed-under-the-island scenario is holding up, with the addition that there are two aliens - Jacob and Esau, and they are in conflict.

Perpaps becuase Jacob is violating StarFleet's Prime Directive.

========

Having said all that - I want the S-6 finale to be something powerful and uplifting. Think more "Close Encounters" than "Alien(s)". Perhaps the entire island rises and flies into space, engines repaired with unobtanium.

#148. Posted by: Cecil at May 14, 2009 12:37 PM

@134 Crispy & @141 LostEdit

Regarding the question of Smokey being Esau, I think the event in the Temple shows he is. Not only (as someone said above) did Smokey only appear when Bad Locke went away and Ghost Alex disappears before Locke reappears, but Ghost Alex told Ben agressively that if he doesn't "...do exactly what Locke says," she would kill him. That's what Esau wants, right?

@136 LostEdit
I agree, I think they've all been pawns, Locke, Ben, Widmore, even Richard.

#149. Posted by: freckles at May 14, 2009 12:39 PM

137, Steve


I get what you are trying to say now. Another question that arises though is how does the hatch door from the swan still end up at the beach? I believe that events will find a way of course correcting and making sure that regardless of the road taken, the destination will remain the same.

#150. Posted by: Michaelmvp at May 14, 2009 12:46 PM

Yet another enlisting of an actor from Deadwood. Man #2 was the show's Silas Adams played by Titus Welliver. Kept trying to peg where I had seen him before.

...and totally buy into the sibling theory. The opening scene felt like a result of a life long competition between two waring brothers.

#151. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 14, 2009 12:47 PM

Why is everyone referring to Juliet as being dead? If that bomb went off, THEY'RE ALL DEAD!!!

#152. Posted by: BEMH at May 14, 2009 12:52 PM

@ 144, Teddy Alvin:

2007 Richard tells Locke that Jacob lives in the base of the statue.

What's to say that in 1977 Jacob didn't live in that cabin?

#153. Posted by: Schiano at May 14, 2009 12:53 PM

@139: ransomjackson - I believe that Jacob and his followers have been around for a LONG LONG time. Perhaps Jacob has always been here on the island (and by extrapolation the island is just a local manifestation of a larger reality that we cannot understand). That being said, it is likely that as people have come to the island over the eons their individual cultures, languages, etc. have influenced and been incorporated into the fabric of those that live on the island. The tapestry (hey, isn't that what Jacob was making) of the culture on the island is influenced a little bit by each generation and/or culture that passes through it over time.

#154. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 12:54 PM

Evil locke was not around when the smoke monster appeared to ben as his daughter.Then reappeared right after she was done giving her warning about following evil locke.I think that we can assume that man#2/evil locke and the smoke monster are all the same entity. Perhaps Jacob will transform into an entity similar to the smoke monster after being tossed in the fire.

#155. Posted by: Man #2 at May 14, 2009 1:02 PM

I also noticed that Jacob touched everyone he met in their flashbacks. Touching them could be the thing that brings them to the island, or it could also give them special powers. It seemed to bring Locke back to life, and it could also explain Sun and Jin's miracle baby. And Jack being able to miraculously save Julie Bowen and make her able to walk again. It could "un-curse" Hurley. Not sure about anyone else, except that Jacob definitely killed Nadia. He knew what he was doing when he stopped Sayid, just like he knew everything else in the flashbacks. He didn't just happen to be at a couple's wedding, he didn't just happen to be at the store when a little girl tried to steal something. He KNEW that Locke was about to be pushed out of that window. Therefore, it follows that he knew Nadia would be hit by a car and wanted it to happen.

Juliet falling down the drill shaft and surviving is reminiscent of the plane crashing into the island but everyone surviving. There's something about the EM that it is so strong to pull anything metal from very far away at very high speeds, but when they finally land, they seem to land softly.

I've been a little disappointed that RA doesn't seem to be as important as we though. In last week's episode, i was disappointed that he really didn't know anything, it was Locke who told him to go to shotLocke and give him the compass and tell him he needs to die, etc. I had been hoping RA knew cuz he was all-knowing or something. This week, notLocke told him that he seems to make up rules as he goes along and that he doesn't really know anything. Is RA just a pawn too? The only reason he always said in 2007 that they had been waiting for Locke was because he visited them briefly in 1954, and in 1974 Sawyer told him they were waiting for Locke.

#156. Posted by: BostonSteve at May 14, 2009 1:02 PM

I don't believe that Esau and smokey are the same. When Ben tells "New Locke" that his dead-daughter told him he has to do everything Locke says, he seems a bit surprised and then says "good, then I won't have to convince you." That quote should show that "New Locke" had no prior knowledge of what Ben is talking about.

#157. Posted by: Earl at May 14, 2009 1:02 PM

@17 bcre8ve
'looming under the statue' rofl
glad to have you back!

#158. Posted by: mtncbn at May 14, 2009 1:02 PM

Wasn't Jacob the same man who encountered Jin at Sydney Airport at the end of season 1? The man who told Jin to deliver Mr. Paik's watch or else. I think it was him since:
1. He is Caucasian with an American accent.
2. He speaks Korean fluently.
3. He bears a resemblance to Jacob.

#159. Posted by: Mr. Cube at May 14, 2009 1:08 PM

→ 40. Posted by: Joey John
How is Locke's body in that crate? Wasn't he in the coffin that was transported on the plane wearing the suit? Did I miss something here? Is there 2 dead Locke bodies?

This is a good question.If Esau needed lock's body, how come it's still there?

44444444444444444444444444444

46. Posted by: Mizzed
55. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought

Both of these scenarios make sense to me. I'd be happy with an ending to the series similar to these.

88888888888888888888888888888888

97. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes
I think the cabin was never Jacob's cabin as we and Locke were led to believe. Man #2 had been inprisoned there by Jacob. Ilana and Jacob's crew went to destroy man #2 by burning the cabin but he was gone. The line of ash was broken and he escaped.

Or maybe it was Jacob that was imprisoned while Esau set up his plan to kill Jacob?

15151515151515151515515

I believe that the bomb never goes off and that is why it is sealed like Chernobyl under the hatch.

When Desmond turns the key, THEN it goes off. As others have said.

#160. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2009 1:14 PM

@125: LostedIt

"I'm hoping for Alex instead... Juliet nice. Alex, nicER."

Alex appearing too would be very nice indeed but we may have a different sort of show on our hands.

And a big thanks to all the blog contributors, especially Mac, for all their good work. It makes me smarter just reading it.

By the way, did anyone notice how many toes Jacob had?

#161. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at May 14, 2009 1:18 PM

LONG POST ALERT

Part of the problem of unraveling the mysteries is that there are too many conflicting concepts that have been mashed together. There may not be one mythology to explain what is going on to the characters. I still believe the minority view that the characters are dead, in the Egyptian afterlife realm of the underworld, struggling through ordeals prior to their final judgment. Many have been "tapped" by the gods to be soldiers in their nightly battle for power.

I believe a big clue to LOST's story line is woven in Jacob's tapestry: At the top, sun rays flow from the symbol for the Eye of Horus (Ra). However, that mural contains non-Egyptian themes including Greek letters.

Eye of Horus represents the right eye of the Egyptian Falcon God Horus. It represented the sun, and was associated with the Sun God Ra. The mirror image, or left eye, represented the moon, and the God Thoth.

According to legend, the left eye was torn from Horus by his murderous brother Seth, and magically restored by Thoth, the God of magic. After the restoration, some stories state, Horus made a gift of the eye to Osiris, which allowed this solar deity to rule the underworld. The story of this injury is probably an allusion to the phases of the moon as the eye which is "torn out" every month.

Together, the eyes represent the whole of the universe. Spiritually, the right eye reflects solar, masculine energy, as well as reason and mathematics. The left eye reflects fluid, feminine, lunar energy, and rules intuition and magic. Together, they represent the combined,transcendent power of Horus.

The never ending cycle that Jacob and (Seth) discuss at the beginning of the Incident is the solar cycle: in the Egyptian myth, when Ra would journey through the underworld each night, defeat monsters and enemies, in order to rise to power as the sun each morning upon the Earth.

Part of the conflicting noise of the LOST themes is that Jacob-Seth know that their ancient world's rules (which to them are black and white) have been under assault by new religions (created by modern man). They continue to bring the dead to the underworld cycle to maintain their balance of power in the universe and control of humans on earth. In certain ways, the deceased are used as pawns both in their life, immediate afterlife, and prior to their final judgment (rebirth or destruction). Example, Locke did die in the fall . . . Jacob touched him to set his afterlife path: pain, mental anguish, preparation then journey to the island.

There is another legend which puts some context in Jacob-Seth’s meeting on the beach. The Book of the Heavenly Cow refers to mankind's rebellion against the elder sun god, Ra, resulting in the punishment of humans by the fiery "eye" of Ra in the form of the goddess Hathor. It takes place after Ra's long rule on earth. The royal sun god is specifically given devine power over both the deities and the humans. Prior to the rebellion, the deities, gods and humans lived together on Earth. There had been a golden age where the various deities and humans were both under the sovereignty of the sun god.
During this previous age, the sun god had not yet begun his daily course through the sky and the netherworld. Hence, there was no cycle of day and night, nor was there a netherworld and death did not exist.

After the human rebellion, a complete reordering of the world had to take place. When mankind's rebellion took place, the sun god first consulted with the primeval deities, including Shu, Tefnut and Geb but particularly the goddess Nun and Hathor. These gods were to come to Ra in secrecy, as not to alert mankind about their meeting. Ra asked them what men were doing, for they whom he had created were murmuring against him. The gods replied, that he should destroy those who blasphemed him.

Afterwards, Hathor was sent to inflict her punishment. For three nights the goddess Hathor waded about in the blood of men. She as about to destroy all mankind, but Ra took pity on those humans who were left and saved them. But as a result of the rebellion, humans now have a life cycle which includes death and a journey through the afterlife (represented in some respects by the island).

The never ending cycle of human life set against the background Egyptian mythology is what Jacob and Seth were discussing on the beach when the ship arrived off shore. Every day it seems, more people are brought to the realm of the dead, throughout the different eras of mankind beliefs (pagans, Egyptians, Greek, Judeo-Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc). Religion is what Jacob referred to as meaningless "progress" in man (good or evil) for he knows the same result occurs: he defeats evil and the human variables every night to rise to power each dawn.

Jacob (Ra) is only vulnerable in the underworld, at night. His confrontation with Locke (which may be a magical trick by Seth) and Ben occurs at night. The down fall of Jacob comes solely through the choice of Alpert (Thoth's representation?) who was a follower and protector of Ra but who was tricked into following too many “leaders” (Jack 77, Locke 07) to allow Seth to confront Jacob at night with an assassin. Before this moment, there had been nightly battles to destroy the sun god which have failed; but even Jacob knew that the only way to end this daily cycle was his death.

The concept of the end of the world would be no sun; we would be thrown into constant darkness. “They are coming” may mean that all the manifestations of evil (Satan, Seth, Apep, etc) have no barrier to destroy mankind if the sun god is defeated. The remaining characters on the island are stuck with the realization that they have been deceived and tricked into their actions which ultimately lead to the destruction of everything.

#162. Posted by: welh at May 14, 2009 1:28 PM

I'm still feeling stunned - that was some incredible tv-watchin.... and let me say that I look forward to reading MAC's summary and all the comments each week - here's what I'm leaning toward right now....please poke holes!
1. Jacob off island wasn't really Jacob - but Esau setting his plan in motion (killing Jacob thru one of his followers). It could be said that each of those encounters set our favorite characters on their painful paths....
2. I really want to go back and see how many previous episode titles appeared in the finale - are the writers pointing us towards episodes that will provide more clues?
3. When will we find out how Chang and Daniel made the SOS video??
4. Eloise was "the leader?" Does that put her in direct competition with Ben? So, if Widmore was the leader and Eloise was the leader during the times we knew they were on the island - did they lead together or did one steal the position from the other one? Glad I'm not Daniel!
5. And - RA can knock out the leader....so why not do that the fakeJohn? RA was clearly uncomfortable with fakeJohn's decisions....
I think that it's time to rewatch the past 5 seasons.....

#163. Posted by: lostaddict at May 14, 2009 1:29 PM

→ 40. Posted by: Joey John
How is Locke's body in that crate? Wasn't he in the coffin that was transported on the plane wearing the suit? Did I miss something here? Is there 2 dead Locke bodies?

... and what will happen when Ben and New Locke/Esau emerge from Jacob's crib to RA and the anxious, awaiting others. With dead Lockes body laying there, they'll have some explaining to do. And will Ben become the "new #2" or at the very least, be restored as the other's leader?

#164. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 14, 2009 1:36 PM

Huge fan of this blog. Have been reading it faithfully for 5 years now but maybe have posted once. Love Mac and love the posters -- a lot of very thought-provoking ideas, theories, etc.

Ok...for those of you who question why Jacob allowed Ben to kill him when he's supposedly all-knowing -- and in keeping with the whole God vs Devil/Good vs Evil thing: Seems to me that Jesus allowed himself to be sacrificed (and in fact played his own role in it, though somewhat reluctantly at times) for the greater good. Before the crucifixion he was just some obscure preacher who had accumulated some very loyal (his critics would say fanantical) followers along the way. It was only after his death (and resurrection) that he became a force.

There. I've said my piece. Have at it. And, yeah, it's going to be a long, hard 8-9 months.

#165. Posted by: grannyvi at May 14, 2009 1:44 PM

Thanks Mac for a great year.

I'm with the camp that opines that the white flash wasn't the bomb going off at all. It was another foom to when I don't know, caused by the drill going deep into that electro - magnetic pocket.

The would leave loads of possibilities open. hummmmmmm

#166. Posted by: Dee at May 14, 2009 1:47 PM

I watched the episode with a Korean friend. When Jin spoke, he said his Korean is competent but with an awful accent. When Jacob spoke, he said his Korean was just plain terrible. Imagine how he laughed when Jin said that his [Jacob's] Korean was excellent.

#167. Posted by: DRiver at May 14, 2009 1:47 PM

Having said all that - I want the S-6 finale to be something powerful and uplifting. Think more "Close Encounters" than "Alien(s)". Perhaps the entire island rises and flies into space, engines repaired with unobtanium.


→ 148. Posted by: Cecil
-----------------------------------

Hopefully they upgrade their CGI department before that climactic final shot!

#168. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 1:48 PM

And yet another goofy-ass theory with no proof...

Eloise Hawking told Jack that he had to re-create Flight 815 as closely as possible; otherwise, the results would be unpredictable. So he assembled the usual suspects (and his dad's shoes), and the results were almost kinda sorta but not really close.

What if Jacob is doing the same thing, trying to re-create a certain set of circumstances? What if distant relatives of our O6 were on the Black Rock?

And what if Jacob is trying to re-create the original crew of the Black Rock (or his Farpoint Station of a ship), and he keeps getting it just wrong every time, forcing him to go back a little further into each Lostie's life, touching them at an earlier and earlier age, trying to influence the ultimate outcome?

Katie Austin and Jimmy Ford were the only ones he got to as children...never even got to Juliet...significance?

#169. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 14, 2009 1:50 PM

I'm with 134 and 157...Man #2 and the Smoke Monster are two separate entities. Rethink your logic! There's plenty of time...

#170. Posted by: pual at May 14, 2009 1:54 PM

how many times have new ppl come to the island as a result of some electromagnetic anomaly?

#171. Posted by: Anthony at May 14, 2009 1:54 PM

I am in the good/evil-God/Satan-Good Brother/Bad Brother boat...and I was particularly struck by what Ben said to Jacob right before he stabbed him...how he went on and on about always having to obey Jacob's wishes, follow his instructions, attend to his lists, all the while never seeing him...isn't that what one must do while worshipping a God of any kind? Isn't that what faith is?

I too loved all the black/white contrast throughout this episode...I thought it was interesting that Jacob was in a black outfit each time we saw him off island (with the exception of Kate's FB I think...)...then I remembered that Christian was wearing white tennis shoes and Dead Locke had black dress shoes on in the coffins...is there significance to this or am I really going overboard with the attention to detail?

As for the LOST lettering being reversed at the end of last night's episode...that's a lot like S4's finale when we all noticed that the reflection of LOST in the water had a city skyline set against the jungle skyline we were used to...and we now know how significant that clue was...

Didn't Alpert say Eloise was pregnant? Weren't we wondering how Ellie and Widmore could be Daniel's parents if his eyes were brown and theirs blue? Could he be a product of immaculate conception? Would Jacob somehow have a hand in this if we subscribe to the idea that he represents God/good/light/etc? Daniel does have a Jesus-esque look about him...

Speaking of eyes, does anyone know where we could find a side by side picture of the eye opening in S1 and last night's coming attraction of S6 to see if it is, indeed, Jack's eye?

I hope we can keep this lively discussion going in what's sure to be a very, very long 10 months!

Thanks, always, to Mac for doing such a great job!

WGNABB

#172. Posted by: Vikki at May 14, 2009 1:57 PM

@170. Posted by: pual
I'm with 134 and 157...Man #2 and the Smoke Monster are two separate entities. Rethink your logic! There's plenty of time...

Think again... man #2 is manifested as Locke who conveniently disappears when smokie shows up. Man #2 does not want to tip his hand and give away that he is not Locke, so he plays with Ben in this scene.
man #2 knows that noone other then Ben and himself know about the happennings under the temple.

#173. Posted by: steve at May 14, 2009 2:05 PM

@152 BEMH insisted:

>Why is everyone referring to Juliet as being dead? If that bomb went off, THEY'RE ALL DEAD!!!

Well, the theory is that BECAUSE the bomb went off, the crazy magnetism was counteractes...

Therefore the buttton pushing every 108 minutes was never required...

Therefore Desmond couldn't fail to do it...

Therefore the plane didn't crash ...

Therefore...

NOBODY DIES,

The plane flies on to LA

Everybody goes about whatever they were doing before.

If not, you're right, everybody dies, in which case we watch a blank screen for all of season 6? Episodes of "Desperate Housewives"? ?


#174. Posted by: Cecil at May 14, 2009 2:09 PM

Mac - TOTALLY agree w/your letter to Lindolf and Cuse..... I paused the tivo for about 1 min cause i just couldn't believe it......

#175. Posted by: toni at May 14, 2009 2:09 PM

I fully recount my Sayid = Skeletor theorem!

In the process of re-watching, and it came to my attention that Sayid snagged a Horace Mathematician jumpsuit, and not a Roger Workman!

#176. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2009 2:13 PM

I was amazed Juliet survived at all. I mean, she didn't just fall down that loooooong hole in the ground, but she was pulled down with a strong magnetic force. Moreover, she likely was banging against the sides en route, only to land on big ass chains. That said, my belief is fully suspended.

#177. Posted by: Rich in Baltimore at May 14, 2009 2:16 PM

Does anyone think Jacob is really Aaron all grown up. I don't necessary buy the whole Jacob is really old theory.

#178. Posted by: linearxs at May 14, 2009 2:19 PM

@167. DRiver:

Look at English in the United States. Say I'm from NY -- wouldn't someone from California think I had a horrible accent? What about someone from the south? Wouldn't they have a funny accent to me, a person from NY?

#179. Posted by: schiano at May 14, 2009 2:22 PM

Hmmmm...I don't know, guys...I just re-wtched the S6 trailer on youtube and it looks an awful lot like Juliet's eye...

#180. Posted by: Vikki at May 14, 2009 2:26 PM

The assumption by Mac and everyone here seems to be that Locke is not old Locke. But since we know that old Miles can exist together with young Miles, why can't there be two of the same Lockes (one dead from the future, one alive from the past) in this episode? Then the reference to the time loop spoken by Jacob to Locke can be taken more literally. Jacob might represent a removed, manipulative god, designing human conflict for his own pleasure, which Locke wants to end for good. Locke may just share the same philosophy of man number 2.

Jacob may have called in Illana to expose the "false" Locke, perpetuating human conflict. If Locke perceived this, it would explain his speed to kill Jacob, and all he represents.

#181. Posted by: Loz at May 14, 2009 2:28 PM

@166: Dee - I think this may have been the first episode to end with a white background and black letters instead of the other way around (anyone?). That has GOT to be a significant indication, but of what? That good and evil have switched influence/power? That the bomb going off is so pervasive to the storyline as to reverse everything that has gone on to date? That they ran short of black pixels and had to conserve? ;)

@163: lostaddict, @169: ransomjackson - I think Jacob definitely put some things in motion, but so did "Esau", very much a chess game. No, I do not think "Esau" was posing as Jacob off-island. I do believe that was in fact him, which of course means I'll probably be proven wrong. ;) Ok, but assuming I'm taking it correctly at face value, then both of them have been "gaming the system" to counter one another. The question is, at the beginning of next season who will have performed the ultimate move to come out ahead? Or, equally likely, given that it's a long (or short, depending on your perspective!) final season, we may see "Esau" apparently triumphant in the short term but Jacob "winning" (whatever winning may mean) in the end. A third possibility is us finding the two have negated one another and we're back at status quo but now the stakes have been raised because everyone knows what's going on and everyone will be taking sides and trying to get their "side" to "win", whatever winning actually constitutes.

I this really any better (ie: less painful to contemplate, not quality-wise) than the "nosebleed season" we just completed? ;)

#182. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 2:36 PM

Ok..havent read over all the comments but what if Man#2 realized he could inhabit dead peoples bodies after inhabiting Christians when flight 815 crashed..Then Nafarious Locke told Richard to tell shot in the leg Locke that he had to die in order to bring everyone back. That was his "loophole".. He would inhabit Locke's dead body, whom he knows Richard and Ben would listen to..
Now I have to go back and see what Christian told people in the past five seasons.

#183. Posted by: usetheschwartz at May 14, 2009 2:39 PM

@173...I had thought about both situations, but was not convinced. I'm thinking that it's possible to read too much into Locke not being present for Ben's judgment. It only makes sense that it would happen in private, like it did for Echo. And yes, it's entirely possible that Locke was feigning surprise when Ben told him what happened. However, looking at the broader picture, I'd bet that Man #2 and Smokey are not one and the same. Time will tell!

#184. Posted by: pual at May 14, 2009 2:41 PM

@162 welh. That was fantastic. We've seen day/night issues before. And murmuring against Ra = whispering?

I like the Jacob/Man #2 as brothers theory, but Man #2 says "One of these days, sooner or later, I'm going to find a loophole, my friend," so that's a small tidbit in favor of them not being bros.

Maybe the bomb didn't cause or stop the incident. Maybe it just temporarily nuked the hot pocket but they will still have to cement it off, build the hatch and press the button to prevent leakage. And pretty cool side effects as everything gets sucked into the hatch. Guess they saved a bunch of money by using that toy submarine.

Once again a missed opportunity for Marvin the Martian...Jack drops the bomb. Silence. Drilling sound. Sawyer: "This don't look like LAX." Martian: "Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom."

#185. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 14, 2009 2:42 PM

@181: Loz - I'm not quite sure if any consensus has arisen here of yet in terms of who/what the Locke we saw in the chamber under the statue with Ben, but my personal perspective at the moment is that the Locke that dropped to the ground on the beach out of that box was the Locke we know and the one in the chamber was NOT him, but rather some alternate manifestation of him visually. Whether that means "Esau" manifesting as Locke, Smokey manifesting as Locke, or who knows what other entities and/or powers exist on the island that we haven't even been introduced to. From Jacob's statement that "you've figured out a/the loophole" (can't remember the exact words) I'm presuming it's "Esau" or something under "Esau's" command. We have at least 10 months to debate this before we'll (hopefully) find out the truth.

#186. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 2:48 PM

I never could buy into the Bernard and Rose scenario as Adam & Eve or a similar metaphor. But last night's cameo (with Vincent in tow) it certainly felt like they are watching events from a "higher ground".

They're only 5 miles from Dharmaville and with the Others always lurking, doubt they could maintain peace and quite within their "Big Island" condo paradise -- if they were fully living in the "now".

#187. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 14, 2009 2:48 PM

Mac, thanks for all you do here. I enjoy it EVERY week!

(1) I've had a bad feeling about Juliet since last season. When I heard she'd been cast in that other ABC show, I knew she'd be gone from LOST. I bet they work her in some way next season. But -- IMHO -- Juliet fans need to cowboy-up and accept she is gone. What a great, great character, played so expertly!

(2) I agree on Mac's theory that Un-Locke = Guy in Black. I think Guy in Black probably works in tandem with Smokey, too. Last night it occurred to me that Guy in Black may be like Prospero from Shakespeare's THE TEMPEST and Smokey is like Calaban. Guy in Black seems to be able to inhabit the dead bodies on the island.

(3) Yep, I think Jacob was never in that shack. It was Guy In Black, imprisoned. Which means that Ghost-Christian and Dead-Claire and Yemi, etc. are all giving BAD advice to our Losties. (Assuming, of course, that Guy In Black is "bad" and Jacob is "good").

(4) I *so* want Miles and Chang to hang out together.

(5) I, too, think that "they're coming" means Jack, Kate, etc. ... back to the future!

(6) Desmond? Hello, Desmond?

(7) What's in that GUITAR CASE????

Thanks, Mac!

#188. Posted by: DCDude at May 14, 2009 2:52 PM

I keep saying 10 months. Just did the math and it's 8 months. Woo hoo! Two months down!

I just realized that perhaps I haven't expressed my thanks to Mac for all he's done this and in past seasons. Mac, you rock! You've done a heck of a job with your weekly analyses and got a heck of a group of people assembled here with the intelligence and common courtesy to make this one of the best places around to discourse on Lost and everything related to the show. My sincerest personal thanks.

#189. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 2:55 PM

I'm still thinking we will find out the bomb did not in fact detonate.
If it did and it resets everything then no one ends up on the island. What could season 6 possibly be about then?

If it did and did not reset everything, I still think it would have killed people on the surface and still made everything we've seen so far on the show impossible due to fallout, etc... I doubt Dharma would have brought people back to the island with the residual radiation that would be there--altough it was deep underground. And I don't think Chang would still be alive to make his films.

The bomb going off would not only negate all we've seen so far for the 06 but also all of what we just witnessed last night taking place in 2007. Why show us all of what was occurring in 2007 last night if it is ultimately going to be erased. The 2007 events seem to important to just forget about and have no opportunity to revisit.

The only thing that makes sense to me is the bomb did not detonate. The electromagnetism from the incident FOOMed our losties to 2007 to be reunited with the others, and everything occurred from 1977-2007 just as it had before.

So please lets stop assuming that the bomb went off. We really do not know that yet at this point and we won't know until next season.

#190. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 2:58 PM

@188. Posted by: DCDude

re: Miles and Chang
How awesome was that when Chang was hurt and Miles yelled "Dad!"

A nice moment that got a bit lost in the shuffle of an incredible episode.

#191. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 14, 2009 3:02 PM

cool! even after Dead is Dead and smokey taking human forms (Emi, Walt, etc) we never thought smokey was impersonating Christian and Locke. The ash around the cabin was for Jacob's protection, but as we saw yesterday, there is a small patch where the ash circle is broken. And the voice who said "Help Me..." to Locke when ben took him to the cabin was probably smokey (man# 2). then onwards the cabin started jumping around and Christian form of smokey overtook it.

just like any other great epic of good vs. evil, Jacob and man#2 should be brothers and could have rule where man# 2 cannot directly harm Jacob. and the loophole is making Locke the leader of the group and get himself invited for an audtion inside Jacob's abode.

The nuclear explosion explains the early worries of island being contaminated and the hazmat suite, etc. also explains Sayid's comment in S2 about Chernobyl.

so moral of the story so far? DID & WHH!!!

#192. Posted by: aj at May 14, 2009 3:02 PM

@187- about Rose and Bernard. They seemed much calmer. In previous scenes, it seems like the Dhamaites would have heard Bernard ranting from 5 miles away. He seemed to be stewing about something or another.

Now, he's all love and cabins. I don't know if I like this Bernard...although I have a huge crush on his beard.

#193. Posted by: lardiea at May 14, 2009 3:13 PM

Here's an interesting thought. Just WHY did they "know" they should carry Locke's body off the plane? If you found a dead guy in a plane after a crash, doesn't it seem odd you would pack him up and haul him along? Point is simply this: that group knows a LOT more than they are currently letting on.

Seemed odd to kill Jacob so quickly too, I think there is more to be seen on that front.

2010... (sighs)

#194. Posted by: The Duf` at May 14, 2009 3:19 PM

@194. Posted by: The Duf`

Here's an interesting thought. Just WHY did they "know" they should carry Locke's body off the plane? If you found a dead guy in a plane after a crash, doesn't it seem odd you would pack him up and haul him along? Point is simply this: that group knows a LOT more than they are currently letting on.

Seemed odd to kill Jacob so quickly too, I think there is more to be seen on that front.

2010... (sighs)
_____________________________________

Here are two possible reasons they take Locke's body from the plane and cart it around the island.
1. They discover the body after Locke appears in the ocean and leaves for the main island. They are bringing the body to Jacob to get his take on the duel Locke situation.
2. Bringing the body to Jacob was the favor that Jacob asked Ilana to do when she was in the hospital bed.

#195. Posted by: steve at May 14, 2009 3:28 PM

and [Jacob] utters the telling line, "I guess it just needed a little push." Granted, he was referring to Jack's unsuccessful attempt at buying an Apollo bar from a vending machine, but it's still full of meaning and importance and nougatty goodness.

nougatty goodness AND rich, milk-chocolatey meaning


? 37. Posted by: davidrh
We got a great gunfight! Obviously on the island, every handgun has 37 bullets and luckily every Dharma suit has extra magazines sewed into their pockets. Flaming spears and rebar - great name for a rock band. Dharma guys are lousy shots. However, it’s a bit unsettling to know that if this is typical, every time I get on a plane each weekend there are at least a dozen passengers who lead mundane lives on the ground, but could be a combination of Sgt. Rock and Chuck Norris in your next island vacation.

Clearly spinal surgeons are better shots than physicists.

? 60. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
Maybe Locke's living in a deeluxe apt in the sky after all.

I hope it doesn't have any windows...I don't think he'd wind up with only a broken back from that fall.


********

The whole white/black thing is not just about good/evil. It is more about complimentary opposites: yin/yang.

********

I knew the Jacob/Man #2(Esau) conflict was old, real old. When I first saw that ship in the distance, several thoughts flew around. I did not immediately think the ship was the Black Rock.

My first thought was that the ship looked like the one Richard was building inside the bottle.
Second was the Black Rock.
Third was if that is the Black Rock, how the hell does it get halfway into the jungle?

However, when they panned back and showed the full statue, my thought was that the ship was far older than the Black Rock...perhaps Phoenicians...or better yet...Odysseus(Ulysses), but as I don't know much about shipbuilding, I can't say what era is indicated by the style of sails.

Would anyone from the vast and knowledgeable fan base here know?

********

We all know that it only takes three licks to get to the center of a tootsie pop, but how long would it take for a statue to crumble down to its last foot?

********

Smokey has always appeared as black smoke.
When Locke saw it, didn't he say it was a white smoke? and that it was wonderful?
Could there actually be two smokeys?

********

The ash around the hut has a section of it smeared through, breaking the circle. Was that circle to keep someone/something in or out?
If so, who/what?

********

I loved how Ben, the master manipulator, got played not by one but by both the New Locke and Jacob. What is the significance that they both manipulated him into performing the same action? And why Ben?

I think an answer lies in Ben's Lockian quest to believe he is special in some way. It's some need for validation.

#196. Posted by: Gumbo at May 14, 2009 3:28 PM

→ 194. Posted by: The Duf`
Here's an interesting thought. Just WHY did they "know" they should carry Locke's body off the plane? If you found a dead guy in a plane after a crash, doesn't it seem odd you would pack him up and haul him along?

------

This is most likely "the help" that Jacob requested from Illana.

#197. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 14, 2009 3:29 PM

I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet:
Did Jacob weave Cindy's scarf on his loom?

#198. Posted by: Gumbo at May 14, 2009 3:33 PM

145. Posted by Erin: what is the significance of the final "LOST" closing screen being a white background with black letters -- the negative of the usual? Could this allude to some sort of reversal with good/evil or who we have been led to believe are good and evil?

davidrh: THE picture. Jughead. THE ring. And now, the “black and white” thingie . . . Trust me . . . You DON’T want to hear my “blacknwhite” scream! . . .

153. Posted by: Schiano: 2007 Richard tells Locke that Jacob lives in the base of the statue. What's to say that in 1977 Jacob didn't live in that cabin?

davidrh: I agree. What with recent lower mortgage rates, Jacob would be a fool not to move up to the East Side . . . . (Cue “Jefferson’s Music)

162. Posted by: welh: Part of the problem of unraveling the mysteries is that . . . their actions ultimately lead to the destruction of everything.

davidrh: You can thank me for the compaction of your post later. It’s what friends are for.

167. Posted by: DRiver: I watched the episode with a Korean friend. When Jin spoke, he said his Korean is competent but with an awful accent. When Jacob spoke, he said his Korean was just plain terrible. Imagine how he laughed when Jin said that his [Jacob's] Korean was excellent.

davidrh: I’ve lived in west Texas and southeastern Tennessee. You think our Korean’s bad, you ought to listen to our English!

180. Posted by: Vikki: Hmmmm...I don't know, guys...I just re-wtched the S6 trailer on youtube and it looks an awful lot like Juliet's eye...

davidrh: hmmmmmm. I’m not sure I’ve ever looked up to her eyes. It’s a guy thing.

Well, this has been fun but I’ve got some UPS guy at the door. blond fellow . . .

#199. Posted by: davidrh at May 14, 2009 3:35 PM

If the nuclear core didn't explode after falling down a 70 meter hole, than I doubt a crippled Juliet basically tapping it with a rock would make it explode. Either way, 8 months.............ugh.

#200. Posted by: Earl at May 14, 2009 3:37 PM

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Maybe reading too far into this but when Ben said, "I lie, that's what I do" seemed a bit of foreshadowing to me. IMO Ben Linus is the ultimate actor in this whole game on the island. Do you think that this is an elaborate plan by Jacob to have Ben play the fool for a while possibly to turn the tables at the last second to win the war?

To me it just seems like Jacob expected this. From what I saw, Jacob saying "I'll be right here." meant that he wasn't afraid of any loopholes Esau could come up with.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

#201. Posted by: DM Arch at May 14, 2009 3:46 PM

@ 192. Posted by: aj
The nuclear explosion explains the early worries of island being contaminated and the hazmat suite, etc. also explains Sayid's comment in S2 about Chernobyl.
so moral of the story so far? DID & WHH!!!
_______________________________________

I guess you can see what you want to see.
If the bomb went off, the WHH does not stand. The bomb was the fail safe device that Desmond Detonated with a turn of the key. If Juliet detonates the bomb in 1977, then Desmond can’t detonate the bomb in 2004/2005. If Faraday is right, there would be no need for the fail safe, and Desmond would not be needed. Only the original swan station might be built to study elecro-magnetism instead of having to contain it.
Dead is dead !! I might agree on this one. But if man #2 has been living in the cabin then has Ben/Richard been led by man#2 for long time now? If this is so maybe Jacob really knows that Ben has not actually followed him loyally all these years. Great plot twist!! Richard is difficult to follow, He brings them to the cabin one time to see Jacob, and now he goes to the statue. When did he know Jacobs location changed, and could he be the one that let him out of the cabin?

#202. Posted by: steve at May 14, 2009 3:47 PM

@201: I never thought of that. Ben kill Jacob could be like Snape killing Dumbledore. I don't know if i could take something like that again, haha.

And I'm starting to buy into the idea that when Jacob said "they're coming" he was talking about the Losties, and the flash was just them getting FOOMed into the present. I also think it makes sense that the dud bomb was used as the failsafe that desmond turned way back when.

#203. Posted by: Eric at May 14, 2009 3:53 PM

→ 202. Posted by: steve
Dead is dead !! I might agree on this one. But if man #2 has been living in the cabin then has Ben/Richard been led by man#2 for long time now?
-----------------------------------------
Brilliant point. It would begin to partially explain Jacob's non-confrontational, passive attitude with Ben and validate his only reply being "What about you?...you, you lying, two bit, double-timing, bug-eyed, two-faced Other-Dharma piece of sh_t."

Just kidding :-) Love Ben.


#204. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 14, 2009 4:03 PM

can someone please discuss ben's daughter saying that he must follow locke... um which locke was she referring to?

#205. Posted by: brian at May 14, 2009 4:05 PM

Interesting theory from Doc Jensen. I'm cutting/pasting this directly from his site:

"What is the significance of the Ajira storyline?

Besides bringing these ''What lies in the shadow of the statue?'' people to the Island, thus setting up conflict for next year, Ajira needed to bring the castaways to the Island because the crash of Oceanic 815 is about to be erased from history. My belief is that the Oceanic castaways were always destined to come to the Island. Remember how fate wanted Charlie dead in season 3, and there was basically nothing Desmond could do to stop that? The same dynamic is at work regarding the castaways' relationship to the Island: No matter what they do, their lives are intertwined with this place. To that end, Ajira 316 represents fate's course correction to the negation of Oceanic 815 from history. Even if Jack is successful at rebooting the past by detonating Jughead, Ajira will bring Jack and company to the Island. My prediction is that, once the time-negation event occurs — call it ''The Incident'' — Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, Sawyer, and Jin will wake up in the year 2007 inside the Hydra Station, lying among the wounded and unconscious from the Ajira crash. And my guess is that they will remember everything that happened to them in their ''previous life,'' courtesy of Island magic. CRAZY TWIST TO THIS THEORY! Ajira isn't a ''replacement event'' for Oceanic 815 — Oceanic 815 essentially sabotaged the fated arrival of Ajira! Jack is actually correct: Oceanic 815 was never supposed to bring the castaways to the Island. It was Ajira that was always supposed to bring the castaways to the Island! This is the mistake that Fate/the Island has been trying to rectify: The premature arrival of the castaways to the Island!"

Quite a theory, I must say. Anyone care to comment?

#206. Posted by: LostedIt at May 14, 2009 4:06 PM

Ie: Jacob touching the O6 in FBs.
Can someone remind me whether Jacob actually touched Sayid in the FB last night? I remember him touching Kate, Jack, Locke, Jin, Sun, Sawyer but I don't think he touched Sayid after the car wreck.

The touching seems to be significant as people have pointed out. If he did not, it might be a clue that Sayid may not make it to next season either.

#207. Posted by: rinz at May 14, 2009 4:12 PM

Minor point. That is not an H bomb they carried through the jungle. It is the nuclear fission device to trigger the much bigger fusion bomb filled with deuterium and tritium. It is still a nuclear device but insufficient to obliterate the entire island. But mixed with that mysterious source of magnetic energy, who knows.

Desmond didn't die in his courageous flash of light, maybe Juliette won't either. I did enjoy her plucky "Blow (or whatever) you sonuvabitch"

Was Esau (the one in the OT) really evil? Jacob was afraid that Esau was after revenge. It seems that in the end Esau and Jacob kiss and make up.

I need a crash course in ancient Egyptian religions. Maybe also Paradise Lost.

Does this blog have a space limit? We're up to 176 already, probably more after I punch "post"

#208. Posted by: August Paul at May 14, 2009 4:16 PM

I will admit that one thing did upset me regarding the finale. We never to see who Juliet was shooting at the fooming sequences earlier in the season. If I remember correctly, we were first introduced to Ajira through a water bottle in the canoe. Who did she kill? More importantly, who was shooting at her, sawyer, miles, locke, etc. I am assuming that this will be answered next season but I would have loved to have seen it during the finale.

Another interesting point...If they do indeed show this scene from a different perspective then there's a great chance that Juliet will make a return to the show in the form of a flashback ala Ana Lucia, Charlie, Libby, etc.

Any ideas on this?

#209. Posted by: Michaelmvp at May 14, 2009 4:17 PM

See what I mean? 30 posts between when I started typing and I pushed POST and it is Thursday afternoon after the morning rush hour.

#210. Posted by: August Paul at May 14, 2009 4:19 PM

I know TPTB said there was just one major character dying and I want to scream with anguish at the thought, but maybe Adam and Eve are Juliet and Sayid's bodies?

#211. Posted by: freckles at May 14, 2009 4:23 PM

@ 205 brian asked, " can someone please discuss ben's daughter saying that he must follow locke... um which locke was she referring to?"

Seems probable that every apparition (Christian, Claire, Walt, Yemi) was actually played by Esau.

Therefore, Alex was Esau ("Do what Locke tells you to do."), and Esau was also New Locke ("Kill Jacob for me. Oh yeah, and while you're at it, Play Misty For Me.").

So as far as I can tell, Esau was setting Ben up as the patsy all along.

Ben the master manipulator just got schooled by Esau.

#212. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 14, 2009 4:27 PM

@183/usetheschwartz: "Nafarious Locke told Richard to tell shot in the leg Locke that he had to die in order to bring everyone back. That was his 'loophole' ... Now I have to go back and see what Christian told people in the past five seasons."

Very interesting idea! Christian told Locke to turn the FDW as well, also consistent. Related to that ... Christian said he couldn't help Locke with the FDW, and new Locke had Ben kill Jacob for him. I wonder if this is related to "the loophole" ...

A thought ... Man #2 has powers to do many things, but some things are apparently "against the rules," so he needs to convince people to do them willingly instead. Hence the loophole ... he didn't turn the FDW, Locke did it, all by himself ... he didn't stab Jacob, Ben did it of his own free will ... as long as people are not coerced into doing his bidding, Man #2 gets around the rules. Eko didn't fall for the trickery and play along, so Smokey (either Man #2 or under his control) killed him. Exactly what the rules are, and WHY they are though, I'd have no idea ... ???

Re Smokey, I've noted that we've never seen Smokey in ANY pre-Incident timeframe. By my recollection, Smokey's first appearance is with Rousseau's crew.

#213. Posted by: ealgumby at May 14, 2009 4:33 PM

@ 199/ davidrh

People were moaning what they would do for the next 8 months without LOST. Solution: they can read and digest long posts.

And in the process, write the final season script for TPTB.

#214. Posted by: welh at May 14, 2009 4:34 PM

It seems that TPTB fulfilled their promise. They stated in one of the recent podcasts that after this finale an avid fan can put together the main plot and direction to the show. I think it's safe to say it relies on the good/evil war epic ancient Egyptian battle throughout time within a mobius loop.

Anyway, they said that this episode will be like the finale of season 1 as they are making the series sort of palindromic. Just as we were left with the hatch being opened in season 1 and everyone wondering for a year what's in there, we are now left to guess at where and what happened after the white flash.

#215. Posted by: MattS at May 14, 2009 4:38 PM

Something else that I found very strange and hinted at Locke being evil was when he told Richard that he had to take care of the people from the Ajira flight. When Richard asks what does he mean...John looks at him and says "I think you know what I mean." Can it be that locke wants them dead? Are they useless to him?

#216. Posted by: Michaelmvp at May 14, 2009 4:39 PM

@208 August Paul ASKED:

>Does this blog have a space limit? We're up to 176 already, probably more after I punch "post"

No limit has ever been announced. We've come cose to a thousand in the past. I have a personal limit at home because my old Windows98 software Compaq Presario hardware won't load it when it gets much over 400. No problemo on the bog iron at work.

#217. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 14, 2009 4:46 PM

We have yet to ever hit a ceiling on comments (and as Cecil noted, we've approached the 1k barrier in the past). So comment early and comment often!

#218. Posted by: mac at May 14, 2009 4:53 PM

I glanced over almost all the blogs,I don't know ifthis has been touched upon yet

In S1 or2 when Hurley and Sawyer found the old van with the Beer wasn't there a body next to it with the name Horace on it's Dharma jumpsuit? could that be Sayid?

Also what if the bomb did not go off but this was a FOOM!!!

10 Months..AHHHHHHHHHHH

#219. Posted by: Paul at May 14, 2009 4:56 PM

I know this is dangerous to say, but I haven't read anything yet.

All I gotta say right now is... WOAH!

That ending was like BOOM BABY and I was like AAAAAAAHHHH!!! Then I started hyperventallating (sp?) and I didn't know what to do with myself. Ha...

Okay anyway... that episode was AMAZING and I can't wait to read everyone's thoughts...

I'M SURE SOMEONE SAID THIS BEFORE but just before I forget --

My thoughts as I was watching (that I can remember):
1. The dude from the opening scene that wanted to kill Jacob might be Smokey?
2. What gives these people all of these powers?
3. Still seems like Richard came via Black Rock.
4. Jacob is AWESOME!!! (not as awesome as Ben though)
5. I don't like how Ben is being so submissive.

If that dude is smokey, then he probably told Ben (in Alex's form) to obey Locke because really it would be obeying him and that way, he'd get what he wants. Clearly, that dude was not able to kill Jacob himself.

So if that dude was Locke, was he also Christian? Is there a power struggle between that dude and Jacob?? Did he tell Locke to "move the island" so he could become him, or is that just why he told Richard to tell him that he has to die? If he was Christian, did he think that speaking on behalf of him will get him what he wants? (Because obviously he doesn't have an important name that people can trust).

I think Jacob lived upto his expectations. He deserves to be what he is. Still confused about what happened in "Man Behind the Curtain", but yeah. Maybe that wasn't Jacob. Maybe that was the other dude which was also Smokey telling Locke to HELP HIM so he'd more curious and do everything Jacob told him to.

I don't know.

I will read now. Sorry if I was repetitive (epecially davidrh) lol. =]

#220. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 4:59 PM

Re: the preview "eye" -- Folks across the Interweb seem to think that's Juliet, but Elizabeth Mitchell has blue eyes. I think it's likely Evangeline Lilly.

http://bit.ly/fCIXc

#221. Posted by: mac at May 14, 2009 5:01 PM

Did anyone else notice how Jacob came into direct contact with everyone he visited in those flash backs? Handing Jack the candy bar he touched his hand. Did the same thing with Sawyer's pen. He patted Hurley's shoulder before getting out of the cab. And, he resurrected Locke with a magical touch. All of this happened before they visited the island. Coincidence? I think not!

#222. Posted by: Grant at May 14, 2009 5:07 PM

Forgot to mention a couple of points

When we first see "Esau" on the beach, I thought "Hey! It's Richard Hatch! With his clothes on!"

What is the plot for the book Jacob was reading on the bench waiting for Locke to fall?

I love all the mythology but feel it's more 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces' than any specific one. It's combination of all the good/evil yin/yang conflicts throughout all the major civilizations.

It seems like it's just a big loop that they're destined to keep repeating until they get it right....

LOVED THE EPISODE!
Thanks so much Mac for the great season.

#223. Posted by: GuylinerEnvy at May 14, 2009 5:07 PM

@219 Paul asked:

>In S1 or2 when Hurley and Sawyer found the old van with the Beer wasn't there a body next to it with the name Horace on it's Dharma jumpsuit? could that be Sayid?

No the name on the suit was "Roger/Work Man". And it was later established it was none other than Roger Linus, Ben's dad, personally gassed by young-man-Ben himself.

Last night we saw Roger get shot (by Dead-Eye-Doc?) and if he died it's another departure from WHH. Even if he didn't, it's hard to see how events could get back to Ben working for Dharma and gassing his dad.

>Also what if the bomb did not go off but this was a FOOM!!!

And if it was a FOOM, did the bomb (which Juliet was in contact with) FOOM with her? In which case maybe there's about to be a mushroom cloud over the island in 2007?

How ironic if they didn't change anything, WHH, the crash still takes place, but their efforts kill everybody in 2007.

#224. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 14, 2009 5:09 PM

@186
I know, unlimited possibilities here. Here's the way I see it:

Jacob, and his judge smokey, represent historical religions; the island, symbolizing earth, is just a sandbox to create and play in. Jacob's power is that he can be anywhere at all times, calling (creating) people to his island at whim. Widmore, DI, Others, etc all represent conflicts carefully planned by Jacob.

New Locke, in recent episodes, is in a time hole that occurred before he made his trip back to earth. He learns all about his fatal return Earth trip from the island.

Locke, man number 2, and the island represent naturalistic, atheistic freedom. Nature heals, not gods. To survive, man needs to live in harmony with nature, not conflict with it. Jacob doesn't make Locke the new leader; the island does. This explains Richard and Ben's astonishment at Locke's now perfect understanding of the island.

Smokey, as Ben's daughter, tells Ben to follow Locke because Locke will soon be proven to be a fraud (via Ilana). So Jacob wants Ben and Locke to be destroyed together, but unfortunately Ilana arrives too late.

#225. Posted by: Loz at May 14, 2009 5:10 PM

@ Mac
"I have no idea how this influences their island experience, so lets label Jacob a wedding crasher and move on."

HAHA!!!

RANDOM COMMENT:
In the season 1 episode, "walkabout", Kate says she's vegetarian.

... I think she contradicts herself as the show progresses.

I have no evidence of this from memory.

-- This is going to be an interesting 9 months!

#226. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 5:10 PM

has anyone considered the fact that originally, 815 was like 2000 miles off course ALREADY when they lost radio contact. then they were pulled onto the island. so if the incident HAS changed something, what it has changed is the fact that 815 ends up losing radio transmission, and crashes into the ocean somewhere near the sundra trench.. could the wreckage of 815 end up NOT being a cover up, but version 1 of events. everything we've seen on LOST is how they HAVE changed events already, effectively becoming version 2.

#227. Posted by: vintaag at May 14, 2009 5:11 PM

Oh yeah, Joseph Campbell used a LOT of Star Wars analogies in the Hero with a Thousand Faces. Me thinks they read the book. :)

#228. Posted by: GuylinerEnvy at May 14, 2009 5:11 PM

Maybe it's not really Jacob's cabbin, but the other dude's. Since he's Smokey or some other supernatural thing, the ash around keeps him "inside" his boundaries. Then when there was a "break", he was "released".

I should probably finish reading first.

#229. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 5:14 PM

→ 206. Posted by: LostEdit Regarding DocJensen's theory.

Very interesting, indeed.

→ 208. Posted by: August Paul: I need a crash course in ancient Egyptian religions. Maybe also Paradise Lost.

See post #162 by welh. Major Egyptian stuff there.

→ 216. Posted by: Michaelmvp: Something else that I found very strange and hinted at Locke being evil was when he told Richard that he had to take care of the people from the Ajira flight. When Richard asks what does he mean...John looks at him and says "I think you know what I mean." Can it be that locke wants them dead? Are they useless to him?

I posted somewhere above that Bad/Nefarious Locke is manipulating Richard into siding against the Ajirans, who are apparently working for Jacob.

#230. Posted by: freckles at May 14, 2009 5:14 PM

Wow. In my last post I spelt "cabin", "cabbin". Sorry. I meant to only include ONE B.

#231. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 5:16 PM

@ 101 Crispy

Good catch on the Penny commercial - she is in fact the lead in Flash Forward.

#232. Posted by: Caelum at May 14, 2009 5:23 PM

I think Widmore is anti-Jacob.

#233. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 5:31 PM

I'm not sure if this has been said yet, but I am pretty sure the H-bomb explosion did not kill any of our main Losties.

The bright flash we saw is the same type of flash that Lost has used when time travel occurs.

Thus, all of our main Losties (including Juliet) will most likely end up alive... but alive at a different time than 1977.

#234. Posted by: Joshua Hamzehee at May 14, 2009 5:35 PM

@ Mac -- In reference to Juliet
"she'll always be on the outside looking in, and that kinda sucks."

She walks among them but she is not one of them. =]

#235. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 5:36 PM

I take back my chess pawns, "team" whatever theory. On further contemplation it seems that the major leaders are all manipulated by both sides.

Take Ben for example. Ben was taking remote orders from Jacob via Richard and I also think that he was doing the legwork to help Jacob find the Losties. Thus, his files and body of knowledge about them. I wonder if Jacob was using the FDW?

And I recall that for some reason Smokey spared the detestable Keamey, perhaps even set up Alex's death, so that Ben would be motivated by revenge and he could assume her ghost form. Look at how Bad Locke manipulated him with her death, how Smokey appears as her beneath the Temple to bully him.

With regards to the rules surrounding people's deaths, I think people die when their purpose has been served for the Island. So perhaps Jacob's purpose has been served. That is, if he's mortal.

#236. Posted by: freckles at May 14, 2009 5:39 PM

P.S. -- GRAA Mac! Thank you for another wonderful season of recaps! We all know you have a life other than this, but you still spend a significant amount of time on us, for us, and we appreciate that!

#237. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 5:41 PM

@ Mac
"I know the island is a giant tube of Neosporin, but Jack's recovery from Sawyer's epic beatdown (including that stomach-churning crotch kick) was truly remarkable."

That was so funny! My first thought was, "WOAH! He just got up and walked away!" (since you could see him walk away with little trouble in the background). Haha. HATE that Jack...ass.

Speaking of that ass kicking -- That Sawyer-Jack scene was definitely a deja vu of Jack whooping Ben's ass in the season 3 finale.

#238. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 5:45 PM

LMAO about the first 5 posts! Haha. Not as bad as #57 in the "Follow the Leader" recap though. HAHA. I'm still laughing about that.

#239. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 5:48 PM

Wow... it seemed as though bcre8ve was wiped off the face of the earth... then when he finally returns, he thinks he's first after posting 45 minutes after the first 5 posts.

It's okay bcre8ve!!! We still love you!!!

#240. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 5:51 PM

Re: dueling biblical brothers - my first thought was: Cain and Abel, sons of the Island’s own Adam and Eve. But the Jacob/Esau angle makes more sense. Thanks, Mizzed.

GRAA, Mac. Thanks for keeping us all in the loop and providing this forum. You have attracted some very clever and intelligent people and it's a joy to read their posts.

#241. Posted by: lovelost at May 14, 2009 5:52 PM

@206 LostedIt -- Interesting theory that Ajira, not 815, was supposed to bring them to the island. But then what about Charlie, Claire, Shannon, Boone, the Tailies and a whole bunch of Redshirts who were on 815 and died on the island? Or were they supposed to die anyway because 815 actually was supposed to land in the Sundra trench as vintaag suggests @227?

@208 August Paul. Does that mean the larger fusion bomb that is still buried is still a potential threat?

@209 michaelmvp. I for one was bummed we didn't see the other end of the canoe shooting scene and have a bad feeling that it might be a one of the loose ends that TPTB don't have time to tie up.

@224 Cecil, I think dead-aim Jack missed his target (Roger) this time. By the way, someone asked a few weeks' back about Jack's shooting/aim. It was established when Jack and Kate were literally caught in a net and Jack shot the rope to get them down.

#242. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 14, 2009 5:57 PM

Hi All!

Just wondering...

...is it possible that the man on the beach with Jacob at the beginning of the episode is Richard?

He looked dark and had a similar eye-liner effect, although he had a little more salt than pepper in his hair.

The reason i'm wondering this is that it seems to be a possibility. Richard, much like the mythical Jacob, has a vast knowledge of the island, and seems to be native to the island, or at the very least, seems to have lived there longer than anyone else.

There was also a point made last night that Richard never ages. Although the man on the beach at the beginning of the episode was visibly older, could it be that he and Jacob reached "an understanding," or something, and that as a result, Richard is now and forever young? Richard DID say that it's because of Jacob that he looks so young. . .Hmmmm...any takers?

#243. Posted by: Andrea1978 at May 14, 2009 5:59 PM

Something else I thought of...

Many are familiar with Homer's The Odyssey, the classic story of Odysseus/Ulysses (not written by Homer Simpson).

Not many are familiar with The Odyssey II, A Modern Sequel by Nikos Kazantzakis (sp?). This sequel outlines the further adventures of Odysseus AFTER his return to Ithaca. It has been a while since I read it (15 - 20 years ago or more), so please bear with me. I recall that he visits Helen in Sparta at the beginning. Then he travels up the Nile River to its source. I believe he also visits the Underworld, though why, I don't recall. After that, he continues to travel across the Indian Ocean with his oar until he reaches land in India, traveling inland so far that he encounters a people who have never seen or heard of an ocean before -- a daunting task for a ruler of an island kingdom in the middle of the Mediterranean. He cannot rest or die until then.

I wonder if this bears any impact on LOST with its cross-cultural Greek/Egyptian/Indian connectivity. There was the Greek lettering on a tapestry with Egyptian motifs, and the island is purportedly in the Indian Ocean (or is it in the Pacific?)..

#244. Posted by: Gumbo at May 14, 2009 5:59 PM

If Juliet flashes, won't she end up in the bottom of the blown up Swan?... and therefore suffocate? Paulikki???

Oh and also -- (someone probably said this) but it was kind of like Desmond turning the failsafe key.

#245. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2009 6:00 PM

@ ealgumby
"Re Smokey, I've noted that we've never seen Smokey in ANY pre-Incident timeframe. By my recollection, Smokey's first appearance is with Rousseau's crew."

There is circumstantial evidence of Smokey prior to the Incident: above the grate/alter there is the Egyptian hieroglyphs depicting Smokey and Anubis.

Since the Hatch's purpose to enter numbers to stop "he escapes place of death" (the glyph warning sign), one could assume that failure to do so would allow Smokey to escape his prison and roam the island.

S6 could deal with the prospect of attempting to re-imprison Smokey under the Hatch (which the 06 helps construct). However, we have yet to see any of the 06 with snake charming or monster taming skills.

#246. Posted by: welh at May 14, 2009 6:06 PM

I'm only on $32, but I just noticed-Young Katie's friend is holding that toy airplane...

#247. Posted by: MAG at May 14, 2009 6:16 PM

One aggravating point of detail from the episode: Juliet's lip injury. When she was going to stop Jack, it was bleeding and large; when she changed her mind, it was non-existent; when the scene cuts to her again, it was back large and red. To me, it was so obvious that it could not be a continuity error.

Either it shows that there were multiple versions of that scene with slight variables (like a moment in Groundhog Day) compressed into one scene, or there were two Juliets: the real one and a manifestation of her.

#248. Posted by: welh at May 14, 2009 6:21 PM

@242 Scooby-Dude asked:


>@208 August Paul. Does that mean the larger fusion bomb that is still buried is still a potential threat?

Without the fission trigger the remainder of (Jughead, was it?) is just a pool of slightly heavy water and radioactive tritium gas. Some hazard - no boom.

#249. Posted by: Cecil at May 14, 2009 6:53 PM

@248: I will have to rewatch tonight, but I also thought Juliette's change of heart was deliberately out of place. It seemed Jack and Sawyer went off to reenact the Thrilla in Lostvilla leaving plenty of creative room for a not-really-Juliette to enter the scene and muck things up. I'm probably way off, but the scene seemed very odd.

#250. Posted by: NorCalAngler at May 14, 2009 7:13 PM

I, for one, do not think Jacob is particularly good. He rewarded Kate's bad behavior, he encouraged Jame's letter that would later lead him to cons and murder of an innocent food vendor, Jin's life was one of mobster violence after marrying the mob king's daughter (Sun), not sure what his impact or choice for Jack was about, Ilana is a gun for hire, Sayid is a torturer/murderer after having his wife run over because he was distracted by Jacob, Hurley - yet to be determined..., and he "brought dead on the sidewalk Locke" back to life - or did HE?

Is Jacob from the hut the same as Jacob in the world or Jacob in the statue base? LOTS to ponder for a dry 7 or so months!

Enjoy the break, Mac, and we can't wait for your coverage of Season 6.

#251. Posted by: NotInKansasAnymore at May 14, 2009 7:13 PM

196. Posted by: Gumbo
I like the ship being the Phoenicians. I thought Black Rock of course, But that would be too recent.

#252. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2009 7:39 PM

does anyone know what the pictures on the tapestry say or mean? The eye seems to be reaching out to Heal? Touch? various people/figures. I wonder if Jacob weaves the history of the isalnd? Or the history of past civilizations. If we took it off the loom would it be really long and be the rise and fall of many nations? Beginning and ending over and over?

#253. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2009 7:42 PM

here's a couple of things that have my head spinning:

1. JACOB VS. ESAU -- agreed: there are teams and they have chosen their teams. they can't directly turn anyone on to their team once the person is on somebody else's team HOWEVER (remember the backgammon game between LOCKE and WALT) you can influence the people AROUND the player (black vs. white).

2. JACOB TOUCHING PEOPLE -- jacob touched everyone of the oceanic 6 (also JIN) BEFORE the OCEANIC crash... EXCEPT HURLEY! hurley was touched by Jacob BETWEEN crashes. hmmm

3. i'm thinking this is less a battle of good vs. evil, and more a battle of FREE WILL. ("you have a choice." -- jacob says to both hurley and ben)

#254. Posted by: Deegefree at May 14, 2009 7:49 PM

Anyone else thought that the way the Swam hole 'inhaled' Juliet in -- didn't it remind you of how smokey dragged in Locke once- almost like a vine dragging him across the jungle floor and into the hole.

#255. Posted by: azure at May 14, 2009 8:04 PM

great review Mac and lots of good observations/theories by everyone.

I read so much today, don't know if this was mentioned..

Did anyone else think Juliet is pregnant? She seemed to place her hand on her stomach a few times, and had a strange look on her face when Bernard offered her tea.

and best line nomination:
Bernard, upon seeing Sawyer, Juliet, and Kate: 'Son of a bitch..'

#256. Posted by: 74 at May 14, 2009 8:39 PM

Still thinking about this episode....but who isn't???

On the Jacob/Esau tip....was just reminded of all the time we spent wondering what the reference to Bad Twin was all about way back when...

And, I checked out the eye AGAIN....thinking it might be Jacob's? I think the lashes are too dark to be Kate or Jack's, Juliet' eyes are indeed blue (thanks, Mac!), and Locke's eyes are too light to be the S6 eye...

I think we all need to rewatch S1 and S2 during this long break....I think some of those seasons might make a lot more sense now...

#257. Posted by: Vikki at May 14, 2009 8:49 PM

Sorry...in my last post I meant to say Kate and Jack's lashes are too dark to be the S6 eye...

#258. Posted by: Vikki at May 14, 2009 8:50 PM

I LOVE the idea of Rose and Bernard being the Adam and Eve skeletons from the 1st season water caves!! I'm a believer.

New Locke was a little too power-hungry to seem like Locke anymore. I didn't suspect body possession, but it jives better with what we know of the real Locke.

So sad to see Juliet go. She really did get the raw end of several deals throughout this show.

8 months is a looooooong time...

#259. Posted by: Angel518 at May 14, 2009 8:50 PM

So much for years of speculation...

Who is Jacob? Jacob is Jacob! DUH!

(Sorry, Cecil, no guest starring role for Michael Gross.)

But was Jacob the spectral figure in the Cabin who cried “Help me”? Or was it Man #2 (love Titus Welliver!)? Or somebody else?

Here’s the screencap from Locke’s first trip to the Cabin:
tinyurl.com/optaqu

And here’s the Mystery Eyeball spied by Hurley peeking through the Cabin window:
tinyurl.com/pb94n8

Ugh, still no clarity! Was that Jacob in the Cabin or not? And who disturbed the ash circle /slash/ invisible pet fence and why?

Jacob sent Illana on her mission, so I think she was looking for him, not Man #2 at the Cabin.

But, if Man #2 was the one imprisoned in the Cabin, did Ben take Locke there because Alpert had misled him all along as to Jacob’s location? And, how could Alpert not know that Ben couldn’t see Jacob?

Could Ellie see Jacob? UGH!!

One last Jacob-related comment:
When he was sitting on the bench, just passing time until Locke got pushed out a window, Jacob was reading “Everything That Rises Must Converge” by Flannery O’Connor.

*************************************

WRWT (Whose Ring Was That) ??

ANTT (Anyone Notice The Touching) ??

We watch a show with 5,000+ mysteries, but we do like to beat the obvious dead horse now and again. Eventually it leads to a good ole’ DRH VPS (virtual primal scream). And that’s always entertaining :)

Thanks for the reminder about Charlie’s granddad, Alaïs! I forgot that detail and was only thinking Drive Shaft.

*************************************

So many great lines, but my favorite had to be from Rose:

“We’re retired!”

And here we were, worrying about them :)

*************************************

I predict Juliet’s goose is cooked (H-bomb style). I’m too verklempt to say more on that subject. But I’m guessing Sayid will foom back to the future with the rest and survive to use his Sexy Scissor Legs in combat again. Also, I was pleased with Phil’s skewering, but wished Sawyer had got in a few good licks, first.

*************************************

@Crispy/122: “Jacob would seem to be some very powerful ancient being. However he is not immortal. He needs to catch food for sustenance.”

Maybe he just enjoys a good filet. Like the devil enjoys mangos :)

*************************************

@Scooby/185: Being disintegrated makes me very angry. Very, very angry, indeed!

*************************************

@bcre8ve: Is it merely coincidence that looming rhymes with fooming? I think not :)

*************************************

@Mac: Thanks for the humor, the knowledge and the forum. Especially in light of your family obligations, your efforts are very much appreciated. Happy Hiatus!

#260. Posted by: Clementine at May 14, 2009 9:05 PM

Ben and Widmore can't kill each other - so why can Ben kill man #2?

Charlie left the ring in the baby's crib before he went to the underwater hatch to die.

Why did new Lock look so surprised when he was told that Jacob lived under the statue? If's he's man #2, he should have known that because it looked like he came from that same area in the beginning of show.

And - who said "help me" in the cabin when Ben and Locke first went there?
Maybe man #2 was living in the shack and needed a body to take over?

And - in one of the earlier episodes I watched the other day someone (I forget who) tells Kate that she is not on Jacob's list because she is flawed.

Just thinking out loud!!

#261. Posted by: tesla09 at May 14, 2009 9:17 PM

I don't think Juliet triggered the bomb. As someone said before, tapping it with a rock seems unlikely as it survived a 100 foot fall and it was supposed to explode on impact. The drill was still going during the entire gunfight and Radzinski said that it had slowed because it hit the pocket of energy. I think it triggers the FOOM effect (again previously mentioned). That way everyone can survive. My guess is that Sayid is the dead fan favorite.

On another note, "Jacob" got his leg amputated on CSI tonight. This guy plays some tough roles!

#262. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 14, 2009 10:27 PM

Still absorbing the finale, still taking it all in, still processing...still reading comments.

But I do want you to know Mac that your review was one of my favorites. That you've ever written. This one could get you that Pulitzer...

#263. Posted by: JoePike at May 14, 2009 10:28 PM

So did anyone notice that Benjamin Linus is the last person that Jacob touches? Of course we all noticed... but did we "notice".

I think Ben and Jacob are in cahoots. No one just let's a bug eyed creeper stab them in the face for no for no reason.

#264. Posted by: Anthony at May 14, 2009 10:31 PM

I was screamming so loud when Juliet was about to fall... I couldn`t keep sit on my chair.
I agree with you Mac, loved her since day 1, a beautiful gray character. So, the last minute of this chapter was a relief for me, I am pretty sure that we will see her in February.

Strange to see a final season episode without Desmond and Penny. (They had roles in season 2, 3 and 4). Anyway we got to see them 2 chapters ago.

And as a bonus I got my answer to the question: "What happened to Vincent, Rose and Bernard?"

#265. Posted by: Martin (El argentino) at May 14, 2009 10:36 PM

One thing I still don't get... Richard told Sun (I think) that he "watched" all of the Losties from the '70s die. And this is *before* this whole scene with Jacob took place, so he must have been referring to an earlier time period, not a yet-to-be-waged battle (presumably the '70s, but not necessarily). But RA didn't seem to be around when the incident took place. That's gotta mean something.

Also, am I remembering incorrectly, or did Hugo (and maybe someone else) break the ash ring when he stumbled on the cabin a while ago? (And FWIW, the break in the ash ring seemed to have been created from the outside in.)

#266. Posted by: LostInConnecticut at May 14, 2009 10:37 PM

@207. Posted by: rinz
re: Jacob the touchy feely guy

Jacob does briefly touch Sayid's shoulders, just as Nadia is hit by the car.

#267. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2009 10:49 PM

Out of the 77 crew, Jacob's backstory did not include a visit to Miles or Juliet, who of course were not on Oceanic. Wonder if they will be along with the rest of the group or not next season.

#268. Posted by: Mickey C. at May 14, 2009 11:15 PM

Man #2 is very in touch with the Island to have had the ability to know when Locke would be jumping through time and tell Locke he would have to die to bring everyone back to the Island.

#269. Posted by: Mickey C. at May 14, 2009 11:23 PM

We've been talking for ages about the skeletons possibly being Adam n Eve figures: were they definitely one male + one female? What if in the end they are Jacob n Esau?? (one white stone, one black stone).

#270. Posted by: jazzswimmer at May 14, 2009 11:47 PM

lost2theworld said "I think that Man #2 may be an incarnation of Smokey. I have to ponder that more but that was my first thought. Does anyone agree?"

I have to say this did occur to me as well, although it seemed so far fetched I opted not to post until I saw your comment.

One areguement in favor would be that Smokey seems to favor Man #2. Smokey, as Ben's dead daughter, told Ben not to kill John Locke.

Also, when Ben came in contact with Smokey, it was only after New John Locke had left to find a rope to get Ben after he fell through the floor.

As I think about it more and more, it seems like that was a whole set up.

Is Smokey Man #2? Maybe Man #2 lost his normal physical properties at some point in the past. Maybe the way he assumed the form of Ben's dead daughter he can also assume the form of John Locke?

#271. Posted by: Mickey C. at May 15, 2009 12:06 AM

@233 (guyliner envy). Re: guy#2 = Richard Hatch...

We thought so too. He is a dead ringer for the original survivor... who was a bit of a nefarious schemer himself.

#272. Posted by: Frogurt at May 15, 2009 12:41 AM

I didn't get a chance to read all the posts (so many!), but regarding bad-Locke and the theory that he is the man#2 from the beginning of the episode reincarnated in some fashion, taking the form of dead Locke --- if that is true then how can there still exist the body of dead Locke? Wouldn't there just be one actual body of Locke (be it the old-good Locke or the newly evil reincarnated Locke)? How could the evil man#2 take on Locke's body, but still leave his body?

#273. Posted by: Erin P at May 15, 2009 12:59 AM

I'm not going to read all these comments but I just want to get off my chest my theories.

I think that the Oceanic Six were the ones that set everything in motion with the setting off of the nuclear bomb (remember what Miles said about maybe it was the bomb, not the drilling, that was the "accident"?). When Jacob said at the end "They're coming", my first thoughts were that because the bomb had been set off, it just started the whole chain all over again and that the plane WILL STILL crash on the island but now that Jacob knows that they were the ones to make that decision, it closes the loophole.

#274. Posted by: Laura at May 15, 2009 1:02 AM

Some odds and ends to ponder. and another Theory.

Faith vs Idol worship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob

Rebecca(Jake and Esau's mom) was extremely uncomfortable during her double pregnancy and went
to inquire of God why she was suffering so. The Midrash says that whenever
she would pass a house of Torah study, Jacob would struggle to come out;
whenever she would pass a house of idolatry, Esau would agitate to come out.
She received the prophecy that twins were fighting in her womb and would continue
to fight all their lives, and after they became two separate nations. The prophecy
also said that the older would serve the younger; its statement "one people will
be stronger than the other" has been taken to mean that the two nations would never
gain power simultaneously: when one fell, the other would rise, and vice versa.
Traditionally, Rebecca did not share the prophecy with her husband Isaac(son of Abraham.)


Walkabout - 2004

Memorial ceremony for the O-815 non-survivors

Flashback...
As the walkabout bus starts up.

Wheely-man Locke:
Don't you walk away from me.
You don't know who you're dealing with.
Don't ever tell me what I can't do, ever.
Destiny, This is destiny, this is my Destiny.
This is... I'm supposed to do this Damn it.
Don't tell me what I can't do.
Don't tell me what I can't...

Flashback to the crash...

Locke wiggling his toes.. puts on shoes that have never been walked in.

Back to the Memorial...
Locke spots his wheely-chair near the bonfire.

Duuumm... LOST


Follow the Leader...

Ben... Dead is Dead you dont get to Come back from that.
Ben was shocked that Locke was alive... I've heard of it but.. to see it.

Richard to Locke... you look different.
Later Richard is also amazed at Locke's re-animation.

The Island has never brought back the dead. Except Dr Christian? And all the people that Hurley sees.


The Incident...

2007 Locke-doppelganger interrupts Richard's Ship in a Bottle... with a BLACK, already gutted Boar.

#2 to Jacob... I don't have to ask them... WE brought them here. (WE) And its gotta be the Black Rock


THEORY

Since we are always wrong.. except for
1. Dr. Chang and his left arm and
2. Wear red and you might die.

I think Jacob and #2 are split personalities of one being.
I DON'T think Jacob is the Good half.
I think #2 was in the cabin... the ashes were either to keep him in or keep Jacob out.


What lies in the shadow of the statue? The cut tapestry showed the hull of a ship?
I don't think Jacob living in the statue basement qualifies as 'in the shadow'.

Tapestrys take a long time... especially when you have to Make the thread too.

If Ben is against Jacob, does that mean Widmore is Pro Jacob?
Was the final eye Penny's?


trivia... the reason why the good guy wore white was cuz lighting for black and white movies in
the 1930's westerns was so bad they made the star wear white so we could see them better on film...
no other reason.

#275. Posted by: CoyoteDean at May 15, 2009 1:08 AM

Ok....

Have had a chance to re-watch, and I want to share some thoughts...

Like others, I did find it weird that Juliet would make the switch to drop the bomb. When she mentioned it was because of how Sawyer looked at Kate, I thought that this motivation was cheesy, and poorly written to serve plote.

Upon review, I totally buy it, because I did not previously notice the context of the stare. The stare happened while they were with Rose and Bernard. It also happened during the touching speech Rose gave - in short - we don't care about any of the crazy stuff that is going on - "We just care about being together".

As she was saying this, very beautifully, she was gazing into Bernard's eyes, and he was gazing into hers. Juliet, touched by this, looked towards Sawyer, and noticed that his first instinct was to look at Kate. Ouch.

This, coupled with her childhood memory of the divorce of her parents, along with her long previous and sad history of always being the other woman, is certainly sufficient enough for me to buy into her erratic change of heart. She really does love James, but is scared and hurt that she is #2.

In the Lost mythology, along with the love of Desmond and Penny, the love between Rose and Bernard is very special. With the deeper picture of what is going on, I have to wonder how much more it means?

Like the dueling forces of Jacob and the nameless one (aka Locke2), whose symbolic attire is black and white, Rose and Bernard are also obviously racially different (ie black and white).

At the beginning of the episode, Locke2 says "You're here to prove me wrong. They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt - it always ends the same".

With what Rose and Bernard have, do they not prove him wrong? They get out of the rat-race, and peacefully co-exist in a beautiful harmony. Is this the "progress" that Jacob refers to when he answers "But it only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress."

It was really nice to see them again, especially because of the content zen-like state that they had achieved together. Awesome!

#276. Posted by: shikotee at May 15, 2009 1:09 AM

rose & bernards house = jacobs cabin

people who have died often appear when the smoke monster is around. so who is to say that the smoke monster himself is not taking form of locke.
also the smoke monster is seen facing the egyptian dog (the statue) in the underground temple. so the smoke monster could have possibly attacked/destroyed the temple. So if Man #2 is the smoke monster this shows that he has tried to destroy jacob in his past and failed. Also the fact that it is on the walls and again on the tapestry jacob made (the monster attacking the doglike creature) shows that this is a LONG battle.

#277. Posted by: Ann M at May 15, 2009 1:21 AM

@255 azure opined:

>Anyone else thought that the way the Swan hole 'inhaled' Juliet in -- didn't it remind you of how smokey dragged in Locke once- almost like a vine dragging him across the jungle floor and into the hole.

I was fully expecting a snapped off limb, a'la Montand. Imagine Sawyer's griief if he'd been left with an arm in his grasp.

(Sorry, Cecil, no guest starring role for Michael Gross.)

I still wanna know who was in that scene. I doubt if Mark Pelligrino or Titus Welliver had been cast at that point.

One thing I still don't get... Richard told Sun (I think) that he "watched" all of the Losties from the '70s die. And this is *before* this whole scene with Jacob took place, so he must have been referring to an earlier time period, not a yet-to-be-waged battle (presumably the '70s, but not necessarily). But RA didn't seem to be around when the incident took place. That's gotta mean something.

Richard said that in 2007. Way *after* the incident. Unless we learn later that he was watching from the mountainside or something, I'd guess either (1) He saw a mushroom cloud and assumed, or (2) They survive this and he watched them die elsewhere/when, or (3) he's lying.

Re: guy#2 = Richard Hatch...

>We thought so too. He is a dead ringer for the original survivor... who was a bit of a nefarious schemer himself.

Hatch was a bit meatier even on Survivor and a lot more so now. And that after losing over 100 pounds pre-Survivor.

Speaking of which, the antepenultimate Survivor review's up - click my name to go. And the final House review as well,

#278. Posted by: Cecil at May 15, 2009 1:25 AM

This and that...

In the Bible, Jacob is spared Esau's wrath when he showers gifts upon his brother. But in the less forgiving and older Egyptian myths, Set kills his brother Osiris and chops his body into pieces.

Osiris is put back together and ultimately becomes the God of the afterlife, more powerful than he was before- it certainly seemed as though Jacob was not too concerned about his imminent death. Perhaps another resurrection motif in the making?

For those who doubt Locke #2 was Esau/Set/Man #2, Jacob directly addresses him along the lines of "you've found your loophole", which mirrors their earlier conversation on the beach.

In addition, the Ajirans discovery of Locke's body (they tell Richard they found it in a coffin in the cargo hold) pretty clearly confirms that Dead is Dead and Locke's active role in these events ended when Ben strangled him.

Esau/Set mentions he had to go through a lot to put these events into place- taken literally, if you can forgive my lenghty noodling of those extreme implications:

- Esau as Locke has Richard give Locke the compass which in 1954 will convince Alpert, despite his own assessment, that Locke is the future leader
- Esau may have given Ben cancer, not "the island" (revenge motive #1)
- Esau may have appeared in the cabin ("help me"), which directly led to Ben shooting Locke. He may have then healed Locke in the Dharma pit, appearing as Walt ("get up, John") and helping to establish Locke as the new leader
- Perhaps a bitter Widmore, deposed at Jacob's orders and banished from the island, switches allegiances- sending the freighter team at Esau's orders, including the explicit instructions to murder Alex ("breaking the rules" and establishing revenge motive #2)
- Esau assumes the role of Christian to seperate Claire from Aaron, distorting Des' vision of seeing her escape on the heli and breaking Richard Malkin's dire warning that Claire must raise Aaron herself
- Esau as Christian gets both Ben and Locke to turn the FDW
- Esau as Christian convinces both Richard and Locke that John must die to return everybody to the island
- Esau as Christian sends Locke to Tunisia, where he is conveniently met by Widmore, who ultimately manipulates Locke to LA where he will a) be killed by Ben and b) provide Ben with the Hawking clue which will result in Locke's corpse returning to the island
- It is Esau-as-Christian's messages and spectral visits that cause Jack's breakdown, and together with Locke's death, gets Jack to agree to return to the island (with corpse and polished shoes)
- As Lapidus and Sun approach the processing center, they hear Smokey, followed by a visit from Christian, who instructs them to take direction from Locke, who later will emerge from the trees in a manner similiar to Smokey- but of course, Smokey, Locke and Christian are never shown at the same time during this sequence
- and shortly after, deja vu as a resurrected Locke takes Ben to the temple, where he waits off-screen while Smokey as Alex makes Ben promise to take direction from Locke and to make no attempt at harming him.

Coinkydinks? Me thinks not.

#279. Posted by: Mizzed at May 15, 2009 1:33 AM

Some other thoughts, re: the various visitations of Jacob.

As noted by many, (myself included upon my original viewing), Jacob does indeed touch everyone he meets.

Kate - he advises her not to steal, tells Katey to be good, and nudges her nose whilst doing so.

Sawyer - he touches his hand when he passes the pen to him.

Sayid - right when Nadia is hit, he grabs his shoulder.

Locke - seemingly breathes life back into Locke after he falls from window, and tells him that he is sorry.

Sun + Jin - grabs both their arms while giving them a blessing to stay together.

Jack - touches his hand while passing the candy bar after successful operation.

Hurley - touches his shoulder just before leaving the cab.

"You like it? I did it myself. It takes a very long time when you're making a thread.... but I suppose that's the point, isn't it?" Jacob mentions this as Ben is inspecting the tapestry. Obviously, this is a metaphor for his involvement in all these lives.

Another interesting conversation to reflect on is between Richard and Locke2, when they are discussing Richard's lack of aging, and Locke's rising from the dead. Knowing now that this is Locke2, it certainly is much more interesting.

Richard - "I'm this way because of Jacob. If I had to guess, he's the reason you're not in that coffin."

Locke2 - "I agree completely Richard. That's why I'm doing this - So I can thank him. Once I've done that, we're going to need to deal with the rest of the passengers from the Arija flight that brought me here."

So - Jacob is responsible for Richard not aging - not a big deal, and something we may have suspected. Locke2's response provides some more insight regarding why he hates Jacob. He blames Jacob for something - perhaps it is because of Jacob that he has become like he has? It also seems that Locke2 is aware of the Jacob followers from the Arija flight. Is this because he can feel that they are moving around Locke1's body?

#280. Posted by: shikotee at May 15, 2009 1:46 AM

@277. Posted by: Ann M
re: rose & bernards house = jacobs cabin

I thought this was the case originally, but upon review, not so certain.

The main reason why we think this to be the case is because right after the Rose and Bernard cabin scene, we have Ilana entering "Jacob's cabin". I compared the frames of both cabins, and they are noticeably different by design, and by geographic surroundings.

Of course, plenty can happen in 30 years (ie surroundings, and even reno work on the cabin), so it is not impossible for them to be the same.

During my original viewing, I was expecting to have Ilana run in with crazy super old and senile Rose in that cabin. Yikes!!!

#281. Posted by: shikotee at May 15, 2009 1:54 AM

more thoughts....

There certainly are some odd things about Locke2 - this goes without saying! ;)

One would assume that the powers that are Locke2 were involved in ghost hottie Alex telling Ben to listen and obey Locke2. After all - Ben seems to be this "loophole" that will allow Jacob to be "killed".

But I dunno - unless Locke2 is the ultimate master of BS and manipulation, there is evidence to suggest otherwise!

When Locke2 asks Ben why he did not tell Richard about Locke2's plan to kill Jacob, Ben explains how ghost hottie Alex appeared to him. Locke2's reaction is weird. He stops Ben (they were both walking), and is all like "when did this happen?"

Locke2 then uses this as a segue (you must listen to me) to tell Ben that he will have to kill Jacob.

I've changed my mind. They were the same, and he is totally master-manipulating Ben. Damn - he good!! (at manipulating, that is)

#282. Posted by: shikotee at May 15, 2009 2:14 AM

Other weird Locke2-isms...

"Well, it's a wonderful foot Richard, but what does it have to do with Jacob?"

Is this more master-manipulation by Locke2? I guess it must be. Black-shirt Anti-Jacob was hanging with Jacob by the hot-rock-fish-cooking fire-pit, right by the statue. Did he/it really not know that the statue was his pad?

Many moons ago (S3), I professed my belief that smokey and dead-people entity were not the same, and methinks I was right. I do not believe that Locke2 is smokey. Smokey is a tool - a security system, used by many (Ben, Locke2, etc). Locke2 was all about messing with people by posing as dead people.

This whole Jacob and the other dude really reminded me of various mythologies of feuding siblings, but specifically, I thought of Loki and Thor. Step brothers, actually. Not so much Thor (Jacob), but really more of the god of mischief Loki.

Loki hated Thor because he was "good", and was the favorite of the all powerful ruler father - Odin. Most of the time, he'd be hatching various schemes to kill Thor, or steal his power, etc.

My last thought is on Jacob, and his acceptance of "death". From the beginning, when the loophole threat was made, he responded "I'll be right here".

I think he was aware of his "death", and made preparations for this - ie recruiting Ilana. This is all but a part of the tapestry that has been woven!

With Locke2 and Ben, he accepts his fate, much like Christ accepted his fate upon being arrested, knowing that he would die. When Ben pours out his jealous and angry soul, Jacob simply tells him that he has free will, and can make his choice. When Ben exclaims "What about me?", Jacob coldly replies "What about you?". Then, it's stabbie time!

What o what will "They're coming" refer to? Is it Ilana and her crew with the body of Locke, or is this a reference to the time travelers returning? Only 2010 will tell.....

#283. Posted by: shikotee at May 15, 2009 2:44 AM

*First Time Poster*
*Continuous Long poster Alert*

162- I love for that brother!!! I am amazed at this invention of the name Esau by bloggers on mutiple sites. It's me and you buddy. I COMPLETLY agree with you, and I think you have a comment in the theories section here that I very similiar to the one I'm about to post.

First things first...
This is my theory I posted on antoher site 5/1/09, and remains unbunked.
A Theory on Dying

First time poster. I posted this on another blog 5/1/09 and wanted to know what you guys thought. I decided to keep it honest, this exactly the way I posted it then.

1. If your future self dies in the past your consciousness is sent to your future version. Meaning Charlotte’s mind went back to the kid version in the 70’s just as Desmonds would have been merged with his younger self had not Farraday saved him(the Constant). Of course, if you happen to die and the your consciousness reboots itself into your younger version, you remember nothing. (i.e Charlotte’s and Miles’ total lapse of memory, Farraday weeping for 815 with no recollection, the the note Eloise left Farraday..” I love you no matter what you remeber”).
“You do remember birthdays, Richard?”
WIDMORE: Because come tomorrow, you won’t remember I did. Daniel, the real Oceanic Flight 815 crashed on an island–a special island with unique scientific properties. I want to send you to the Island. It will further your research, show you things you’d never dream of. But more importantly, it will heal you, Daniel–your mind, your memory.
2. The Valenzetti Equation predicts the end of the world and true Dharma mission is to change one of the six core values. In the Sri Lanka Video, Alvar Hanso mentions six specific ways that would lead to the end of Humanity, mentioned in order just before he mentions the Numbers in order. 4 corresponds with ‘nuclear fire’, 8 with ‘chemical warfare’, 15 with ‘biological warfare’, 16 with ‘conventional warfare’, 23 with ‘pandemic’, 42 with ‘over-population’. Each of the six dharma stations has a corresponding number/factor to be researched with the hopes of changing. When this is accomplished they are supposed change the numbers broadcasting from the radio tower.
3. FARADAY: “In about four hours, the DHARMA folks at the swan work site–they’re gonna drill into the ground and accidentally tap into a massive pocket of energy. The result of the release of this energy would be catastrophic. So in order to contain it, they’re gonna have to cement the entire area in, like Chernobyl. And this containment–the place they built over it–I believe you called it “the Hatch.” The Swan hatch? Because of this one accident, these people are gonna spend the next 20 years keeping that energy at bay… by pressing a button… a button that your friend Desmond will one day fail to push……”-
The consequence of keeping this energy at bay is a 108 minute time loop. Think of the energy getting exponentially stronger as if the Donkey Wheel was slowly turning on it’s own. Since we can’t allow that….we simply turn the wheel back every 108 minutes. This creates a time loop effect that might have been unintentional, but surely started the whole “We can’t have babies” drama. It is also the reason for the continuing Dharma food drops, as well as the veil keeping any one from finding the islands location. Why do you think the freighter never came until after the swan imploded.
3. Everyone from the future who dies incident has their consciousness sent to there future self with no memory. SO flight 815 is pure coarse correction for all those that died in the incident.(this of course explains how everyone is mysteriously connected before the crash and why the numbers are everywhere)
4. Daniel is the cause of the incident. Jughead vs. island= bad idea. But……Daniel didn’t know that he/815 survivors cause the incident because he died and was sent to his future self with no memory. How his parents didn’t anticipate this while manipulating everyone from distance is unclear(Yet we all know the lengths Ben will take to keep some one out of the loop) Daniel reacts poorly when he discovers the losties in the wrong time. Daniel is again wrong and it WAS their(815ers) destiny to go back. Only so they can AGAIN all die just to go back again on flight 815. The only way to stop the incident/endgame is to keep their stubborn faithless selves on the island like they where supposed to in the first place . Dan did say that they ARE the variables BECAUSE of free will.
5. They should have listened to John
6. IMO, Lost will end with jack waking up the same way he did in the pilot……alone and in the jungle. They will show us Desmond again pressing the button with penny and Charlie there(killing off either of these two is just a gross miscarriage of justice). We will see the 815ers finally bow before their destiny once denied, and accept the hand fate has given them. They will Choose to stay on the island to save the world. John will FINALLY convince Jack to just ‘believe’…. even when he has no memory of the reasons why. Who knew one tiny suicide note could capture the whole show.

“I wish you had believed”

-Macgyver


#284. Posted by: MacGyver at May 15, 2009 3:55 AM

*Continuous Long Poster Alert*

In anticipation of this sites Awesome posters...I might as well post my response to the attempted de-bunking of my theory. Yeah.... I can see this Crispy Seaplanes coming at me from miles away. ;-)

Debunker: The Losties couldn’t have died from the H-Bomb explosion. Even if they have, some people have speculated that their mind travels to their future selves.. which would also be their past selves in a future time… That theory does not make sense to me. At all. Minds travel when there is a disruption with the invisible energy in the Island and surrounding… which is what happened to Desmond after the failsafe key and what happens to George on the freighter because they are on the limits of the island and he delved too deeply… as for Daniel and his subjects, he was messing with scientific experiments dealing with time travel. And Charlotte, she was subject to the FDW that was off its axis and sending the island all over the place, and she was more susceptible for some reason.

These people didn’t die before their mind got unstuck in time. Why would minds travel in time after death? I just generally do not understand this theory.

My defense: the fact that they didn’t die in order to conscience time travel only proves the theory more in my opinion. Here’s why, yes you’re right these people didn’t have to die in order to CTT that’s why they were flashing in and out. Simply because they were still alive!! It we KNOW does happen. Dan’s experiments prove that that it can be controlled. Now if you die….just think about what you said about Desmond. The hatch blew up and sent his consciousnes to the PAST and it’s gone to the past in every case except dan’s sending eloise’s mind into the future, because he was controlling. Charlette went threw all the time shifts just like everyone else and NEVER once became unstuck till she was dying…..Right? Ok. Now you can say the swan expoding Completely untuck desmonds mind…..for a long time! All the other instances of CT had no build up…and were all drastically shorter is duration. So since WHH, and this was the actual incident. Means that the H-bomb always goes off. Now at this point you can belive its possible to not die in an a-bombs ground zero. But when it happened to Japan…a whole city Still stands ONLy to this day ONLY because of a mountain sheilding the blast. Now I think Steve is great but i never belived an a-bomb(fire) could possibly cancel out Electromagnetic energy(no fire) in any way. So yeah…..if all the losties trying to stop Jack (who all of a sudden has Faith)didn’t convince you, maybe this will. Swan exploding=crazy electromagnetism= CTT tempory past. Swam exploding+ A bomb=crazy electromagnetism= controlled crazy fire= death and permaent CTT at ground zero. Now the reason I know this theory is golden is because They still get on flight 815!! Which has completly proven itself to be pure coarse correction for all of them. So if you can please explain to me how they all end up in the incident at the same time, yet were all born before 1977 and lived out ther lives with no memory. Then explain how Juliette ends up letting Ben And RA take her to same island she lived on for so long, yet can’t remember. How can one EVER forget that they personally detonated an a-bomb with their hands….while hanging upside down…AFTER she actually left and came back!!! lol!!! :-) Then tell me how Dan Forgets his mother shot him, yet has a diary full of future events(!!! just realized that). Looks to me like he didn’t have the time to jot down that last entry before his death, and that his momma left that part of the story out when she gave it back to him.

#285. Posted by: MacGyver at May 15, 2009 4:30 AM

@275. Posted by: CoyoteDean

"trivia... the reason why the good guy wore white"

Sorry but I disagree. It's not only a matter of getting it good on film.
» White = good = light/day
» Black = evil = dark/night
And it has been like this for ages.


@68. Posted by: Lexelle

"Whose ring did Jin find at the baby cradle at their old campsite?"

Don't know if someone already answered it but the ring that Sun, not Jin, found at Aaron's cradle is Charlie's ring. It’s a family heritage and was given to him by his brother Liam and, although it could be the initials for Drive Shaft, the initials DS actually stand for Dexter Stratton, their great-grandfather.

#286. Posted by: PreacherOnun at May 15, 2009 4:43 AM

It seems that tragedy and doubt follow the people that Jacob touched. With noted exception of Juliet, all those touched are still trying to shoot each other. Rose and Bernard are not influenced by this (Rousseau likened it to being infected)and seem to get it right. I was thinking that it is possible that man #2 (Esau) pretends to be Jacob who then influences and deceives those he infects in order to prove his point that it always ends the same way. In other words Esau usrps jacob and changes the rules... He cheated.

#287. Posted by: Steve at May 15, 2009 6:41 AM

Couple things:

1 - I'm calling shenanigans on the whole gunshot-inside-the-sub thing

2 - Juliet wasn't there for the "live together, die alone" speech

omg ... 8 months ... weeping, sobbing ...

#288. Posted by: ImLost at May 15, 2009 8:36 AM

@288. Posted by: ImLost

1 - I'm calling shenanigans on the whole gunshot-inside-the-sub thing

2 - Juliet wasn't there for the "live together, die alone" speech

omg ... 8 months ... weeping, sobbing ...

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1. Why is there a problem with shooting a radio? James has shot just about everything else including a Polar Bear. Did I miss something?

2. It was back in season three after the beach assault on the others with the dynamite where Rose tells jack that if he says live together die alone she was going to punch his face. Juliet was with them on the trek to the radio tower and heard this.

#289. Posted by: steve at May 15, 2009 8:51 AM

Did anyone else see the similarities between Jacob and Esau and Charley and Liam The younger takes the birth rite of the older.

Jacob gets Esau's birth rite in the biblical stories.

Charley gets the ring from Liam...

May be nothing, but why not?

#290. Posted by: steve at May 15, 2009 8:58 AM

Does Jacob's penchant for bringing people to the island mean that it wasn't actually Desmond that caused the original plane crash?

#291. Posted by: Kev1One at May 15, 2009 9:24 AM

Take your fxxxing pants off Juliet and you do not have to fall(if not die)!!!

#292. Posted by: This is BS at May 15, 2009 9:47 AM

I think the ship in the beginning was the Black Rock. Just because the statue is still intact does not mean that the scene is more ancient than Black Rock. I have a feeling a volcanic event may have occurred on the island which toppled the statue.

Also I'm sure man #2 was who Locke saw in the cabin--not Jacob. Remember the person in the cabin has an aversion to technology to the point he flies into a rage at sight of a flashlight. Jacob in this episode seems to relish progress and enjoy encountering people's from the outside world including any technologies they may have developed. Jacob has no qualms about sitting in the back of a taxi cab with Hurley--something slightyly more hi tech than a flash light.
Its man #2 who does not want outsiders coming to the island and dislikes that Jacob continues to bring these people to the island.

#293. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 15, 2009 9:49 AM

Doesn't anyone ever notice that "Live together, die alone" doesn't make a whole lot of sense when said that way, unless one is advocating creeping off into the bushes to die?

The original speech was something like "We must live together, or we will die alone", which does make sense, and you could shorten it as a catch prhase to "Live together OR die alone" but lose that "or" and the phrase becomes nonsense.

#294. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 15, 2009 9:52 AM

I believe yesterday they made it clear that Richard is NOT EGYTPIAN. At the start of this episode they show the black Rock. At the start of last weeks episode they showed Richard making a ship in the bottle. When he was referred to as Ricardo he corrected Illyana that he is now Richard. I believe that Richard was the captain on the Black Rock. A group of spaniards that sailed to it. Captain Ricardo of the Black Rock. It was then that Jacob befriended him and allowed him to not age. These clues make it seem pretty clear who Richard is.

#295. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 15, 2009 10:08 AM

So next season's theme is that their Destiny's will be revealed. We'll figure out why they were there in the first place and their roles. Should be a doozy. I believe that they will never make it to LA. Their destiny is and was to be on that Island, whether they blow up a bomb or not. but then again Jacob and Bro's conversation can lead to the fact that this story about the 815 crew ends just like the rest and the cycle continues or in fact they do end it once and for all.

It is almost like the Matrix. They created the Matrix over and over until they got it right. Bad code kept on prevailing until they had a chosen one. Could that chosen one be Jack? Lock? Maybe even Desmond?

#296. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 15, 2009 10:27 AM

I'm starting from the assumption that Man #2=Smokey=Christian=DeadLocke, and that he has been running a long con to manipulate someone to kill Jacob by that person's own free choice ("the loophole").

If so:
1) After Ajira crashed, did Christian and Locke manifest at the same time? DeadLocke was on Hydra Island when Sun and Lapidus met Christian at the reception center, right? Haven't been able to re-watch those episodes to create the elusive single timeline.

2) That could be OK, though, because doesn't Smokey have 3 separate parts? ("Cerberus", plus what we saw when it attacked Juliet and Kate). That could explain Christian and DeadClaire both appearing to Locke in the cabin.

3) What about Christian appearing to Jack in LA? This ep showed Jacob traveling off-island, so can Man #2 do the same thing?

Also, re the book Jacob was reading when Locke got thrown through the window:

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/entertainment/2009/may/Flannery-O-Connor-Is-the-Latest-Author-Reintroduced-by-Lost.html

#297. Posted by: LockeBox at May 15, 2009 10:49 AM

→ 295. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL

I agree that Richard has a relation to the Black Rock, but I believe she called him Ricardus, Latin form of Richard, meaning "powerful ruler"

#298. Posted by: 74 at May 15, 2009 10:49 AM

Point one… Found this site yesterday at 6AM loved it. Thanks for all the theories.

Point two…
I know a lot of people have commented that they think Man # 2 is Smokey and evil Locke – I watched the episode again and when Locke and Ben are on the beach and Ben explains that the smoke monster and his daughter said that he must listen to Locke. Locke is genuinely surprised. This makes me think that Man # 2 is not Smokey. If he was than why did he act surprised… wouldn’t he just say that’s what the Island told me… blah blah blah… something something something?

Being that said… I think Jacob is in control or inactively in control of Smokey. I think (my desperate reach for a theory) is that all this has been planed by Jacob. Jacob knew that Ben hated Locke so the only way to get Ben to kill Jacob was to follow Locke. That is why Jacob aggravated Ben “what about you”.

I don’t think we have seen the end of Jacob…. (hoping the answers will come next season)

Again I like all the thoughts and opinions, fun to read! Thanks

#299. Posted by: V at May 15, 2009 10:56 AM

I think DeadLocke was surprised that Ben was so pliable - surprised that "I won't have to convince you" rather than surprised to learn about Ben's conversation with Alex.

#300. Posted by: LockeBox at May 15, 2009 11:00 AM

My 2 cents . . .

#295 Alex Angel: Ilana called him 'Ricardus' which is Latin, not Ricardo. Egypt was an outpost of the Roman Empire, whose lingua franca was Latin. There is an Egyptian theme here particularly with Smokey's underground temple and the statue, not to mention Alpert's eyeliner. I know it's a running gag here on the blog but it's come to define his character so should be of significance. Time will tell.

Juliette Lovers, I'm with you. I do not believe Juliette is dead; notice how she's the one character who never loses her cool. She's always in control even when knocking people out. She's the wild card. Don't count her out yet.

Is it me, or does anyone else feel bad for Ben Linus? After seeing his crappy childhood, all the bad that's come to him and then his asking Jacob 'what about me', I get where he's coming from.

Locke looked absolutely demonic this season. The healthy red glow, the pointy ears. I just thought he had a change of consciousness/conviction of destiny; never imagined he'd be possessed by a spirit.

I think the detonation resets the clock. The end credit logo of black lettering on white background denotes a change; or rather, where we were in the dark (dark background), we are now coming to the light. Just where or when everyone will end up, I'm not sure. All we keep hearing is 'what's done is done' and 'whatever happened, happened' and Desmond's exasperated conclusions that 'we're in a bloody snowglobe', lead me to believe it's one long Greek tragedy of man's inability to escape his destiny.

Don't know where this will end up (I have my theories though), but I hope the payoff is huge considering how much time and thought we "LOSTIES" have put into the series!

Yep. Gonna be a looooooooooooooooong 8 months. Sob.

#301. Posted by: Paula V at May 15, 2009 11:17 AM

I Like the theories that Richard is from the Black Rock...
NICE! I dint think of that!

#302. Posted by: V at May 15, 2009 11:17 AM

What is Frank Lapidus a candidate for???

#303. Posted by: shannon at May 15, 2009 11:19 AM

Last night I read through post 261. Right now posts are at 296. I haven't read the 35 posts in between but I am about half way through rewatching the finale and had some thoughts. Forgive me if I'm repetitive of something stated in those 35 posts.

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First of all, when they were in the tunnels working on the bomb, did anyone notice that they flashed on some writing. The bomb was named Jughead. I always wondered where they got that episode name. Tee, hee, hee...JWTB! I couldn't resist. Your welcome, davidrh!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My first "real" thought was about the hatch door on the beach. Some posters have suggested this as proof that the bomb didn't detonate. I don't think I buy that as indisputable proof. Couldn't it just be that the bomb hasn't been detonated in the past YET? I'm not sure where I stand on whether the bomb went off or not but I think of this as being similiar to Des suddenly remembering his conversation with Faraday. If the bomb went off, and things change in the future, things will have to morph to the new, changed reality, right? Am I thinking about this the right way? All of you scientific, time-travel expert types feel free to set me straight if I need it. You all make me smarter.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My last big "ah-ha" after rewatching the first hour has to do with our Locke version 2.0. Could "Esau" have actually have begun influencing Locke much sooner than we imagined? I'm just thinking about how different Locke's personality was in the flashbacks than the Obi-Locke, powerful, boarhunting, tracker, etc. type Locke that we saw evolve on the island. At some point Smokey pulled him down a hole, right? Did Esau control Locke from that point on? Is that when he really went all Obi-Locke on us? Remember how Danielle's crew changed and became evil after going down the hole with Smokey. Something similiar could have happened with Locke. Continuing with that assumption that Locke was under Esau's control at that point, maybe Esau could only fully control Locke and convert him to Locke 2.0 if he made the ultimate sacrifice for Esau and was brought back to the island. The loophole?

What I'm still trying to work out is how Ben fits into all this. I can't see Darlton turning been into a sniveling servant. I see him as a power player on Jacob/the island's side. I still can't put together how though. I think the coversations between Locke 2.0 and Ben hold a lot of hidden meaning. My brain is working...any thoughts?

#304. Posted by: lost2theworld at May 15, 2009 11:24 AM

What I'm still trying to work out is how Ben fits into all this. I can't see Darlton turning BEN (not been) into a sniveling servant.

UGH!! Sorry!

#305. Posted by: lost2theworld at May 15, 2009 11:28 AM

What is Frank Lapidus a candidate for???
→ 303. Posted by: shannon

Forgive if this theory has already been addressed. My take is Lapidus is a possible "vessel candidate" for Jacob to assume.

#306. Posted by: Island Hopper at May 15, 2009 12:03 PM

If the bomb is going to fix everything then in reality Jacob is not dead because Locke would never be on that Island. I think this is the end he was referring to. They come to the Island, they kill, corrupt and it always ends bad. This is the end all over again. I believe what we'll see is the progress that was made this time vs. the other times. The characters were able to change their future and past with this bomb blast and Jacob will be alive again. I think Jacob's brother didn't account for Jack and crew being able to change things and thought this time he would win by killing Jacob but just after that happened the bomb went off which means it was all for not. Back to square one for the Dueling Brothers and back to the 816 crew. We might actually see what happens to them in LAX and how they are still all interconnected.

One thing of note. We saw Jacob visit all of the O6 prior to the crash except for Hurley. Why is that? I know they wanted to show how Hurley got on Ajira, but they didn't show his relation to him before.

#307. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 15, 2009 12:06 PM

ANOTHER LONG POST ALERT

As background for those who wonder why-how spirits of the dead like New Locke or Jacob would eat and drink:

In Egyptian culture, Man was regarded as a complex being that could exist both before and after death in different manifestations, known as kheperu. The physical body was one of these modes of existence, as were also the heart, the shadow and the name, which embodied a person's distinct identity.

Over the centuries the Egyptians evolved several different concepts of human survival after death. These ideas were first formulated to ensure safe passage for the dead king into the hereafter, but over time people of lower status were able to share in the same destiny. Common to all of the concepts was the idea that resurrection was achieved through integrating the deceased into the natural processes of the cosmos.

During life, the body was known as "khet" meaning form or appearance.
At the time of death the corpse was known as "khat".
When the corpse was transformed into a mummy, it was known as "sah". Mummification was considered the transfiguration of the corpse into a new body which was "filled with magic."

The Egyptians believed that a person's essence or soul was composed of several elements that at the point of death would become separate entities:

The "ka"

The "ka" was considered to be the essential ingredient or dimension that differentiated a living person from a dead one; considered to be the "life force" or "sustenance."

Each individual's "ka" would come into existence at the moment of birth, subsequently serving as their "double."

Although every individual would eventually die, their "ka" would continue to live on after their death, and as such it would require exactly the same sort of sustenance as the living person would have enjoyed during their life. The "ka" would be provided with genuine food offerings, to be absorbed into their life preserving force.

After death, the "ka" would be at rest while the body was prepared and transformed into a mummy. The "ka" then needed to be reactivated so that the spiritual transformation of rebirth could take place. The deceased could then travel to join their "ka," and the link to the land of living through their tomb would then be established. It would be the person's "ba" that would make this journey.

The "ba"

The "ba" is considered to be an individual's distinctive manifestation, similar to our concept of personality which make each human unique. It was necessary for the deceased to journey from their tomb to rejoin their "ka" if they were to be transformed into an "akh." As the physical body could not do this, it was the job of the individual's "ba" to do so.

In order for the physical bodies of the deceased to survive the afterlife, they had to be reunited with their "ba" every night.

Closely linked to the physical body, the "ba" was considered to have the same physical needs as the living body. These needs included earthly pleasures such as food and drink.

The journey of the "ba" was still only a part of the final transformation of the deceased. Another journey followed, to the sky, sunlight and stars, and it was in these celestial realms that the deceased hoped to reach higher status, second only to a god, and resurrection as an "akh."

The "Akh"

The "akh" is the fully resurrected and glorified form of the deceased in the Afterlife. An "akh" comes close to our concept of a ghost or spirit, as it was believed that the "akh" could reach beyond the limits of the tomb to have both positive and negative effects on the realm of earthly life. The deceased was now free to roam on and over the earth. After the successful union of the "ba" with its "ka." the deceased was considered enduring and unchanged for eternity.

#308. Posted by: welh at May 15, 2009 12:14 PM

Forgive if this theory has already been addressed. My take is Lapidus is a possible "vessel candidate" for Jacob to assume.

→ 306. Posted by: Island Hopper

What a great idea and then Jeff Fahey can get all Lawnmower Man scary on us!


@285 Macgyver
"Then explain how Juliette ends up letting Ben And RA take her to same island she lived on for so long, yet can’t remember. How can one EVER forget that they personally detonated an a-bomb with their hands….while hanging upside down…AFTER she actually left and came back!!! lol!!! :-) "

Juliet lets Ben and RA take her to the island because she doesn't remember denotating the bomb because Juliet circa 2004 has not lived that yet. What she did detonating the bomb in 1977 was in the future for 2004 Juliet. She couldn't have remembered that. To me that if anything disproves any notion that the 06 die in 1977 and their minds time travel at time of death to their future selves. I'm not quite sure where that idea came from. Though it's interesting it doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe I'm just missing what you're trying to get at.
We'll see next year but I'm still thinking the bomb did not go off and their whole bodies and minds will be transported by the electromagnetic release to 2007.

That said a few people have said that they think Desmond actually set off the bomb by turning the failsafe key. I don't think that's the case. I think the failsafe let out one controlled burst of electromagnetic energy much as the drill did during the 1977 incident. I don't think the bomb wetn off at either time.

#309. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 15, 2009 12:22 PM

@304 LostToTheWorld wrote -->
My first "real" thought was about the hatch door on the beach. Some posters have suggested this as proof that the bomb didn't detonate. I don't think I buy that as indisputable proof. Couldn't it just be that the bomb hasn't been detonated in the past YET? I'm not sure where I stand on whether the bomb went off or not but I think of this as being similiar to Des suddenly remembering his conversation with Faraday. If the bomb went off, and things change in the future, things will have to morph to the new, changed reality, right?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Alternate possibility. WARNING - MAJOR talking out my butt theory to follow

The time line while being straight moves at the same pace in the past as it sychronously in the future. This why I keep bringing up bill and teds excellent adventure. Time is relative, so when our losties go into the past, there relative present does not stop. (thus the clock in San Dimas is still running) In Daniel's case he jumps through time and contacts Desmond at the back door to the Swan. Desmond becomes aware of the "memory" at the same moment in his synchronized present. The event is actually taking place at the same time, just shifted in Desmond's perception.

Flight 815 may still crash on the island even without Desmonds failure to press the button on time because the Ajira Flight found the place and there was no event that we now of to cause that. In the new scenario, 815 crashes, and the hatch door is already there among the debris on the beach or nearby jungle.

END Ramling theory

#310. Posted by: steve at May 15, 2009 12:24 PM

I loved this episode. It was one of the few I have watched lately that took me completely off guard, more than once. Thanks to all of you on this site, I could anticipate a lot this season - but not this...

in the words of my 10 year old as Jacob said to Locke2 'you've found the loophole'--- "isn't that.. wasn't that... didn't that other guy say... OH BOY."

Thanks Mac, and all of you!

#311. Posted by: LostinVT at May 15, 2009 12:28 PM

I have a few different thoughts than what iv'e seem here. I agree that Man #2 inhibited Locke's body, but i think that he is GOOD and Jacob is the EVIL one. Man #2 was imprisoned on the island by Jacob, who sets up a time machine, and because he sets it up, he becomes a constant on the island. He sets it up with Richard's help, so he is "immortal" as well. Man #2 cannot technically die on the island, because he is alive before he time machine was set up. The time machine travels in a loop, continuously running through time, which is why Jacob can bring people to the island over and over again. Because they were not on the island when the loop was set up, they can die. The loophole in Jacob's plan is that Man #2, although he is dead and cannot kill Jacob when he is dead, or when Jacob is a constant of the time machine, which he is, because he set it up, he acts as a bodhissatva, to guide people to kill Jacob, and take the island off of the loop. He tried it as Walt, Christian Shepard, and Charlie, and finally succeeded as Locke. All of their bodies were on the island, giving him access to them. Man #2 realized he needed to kill Jacob at a point in time when the energy is being activated, but not controlled as the time loop. The 77' time is on a different axis, which he set up as Christian when he told Locke to bring the people back. That is the time which man #2 needs to kill Jacob, before the loop is made. They are in two different time axises, at the same time.

#312. Posted by: eliav ehrenkrantz at May 15, 2009 12:47 PM

Whatever Happened, Happened. Like all time travel stories in which the time traveller tries to change the past to prevent some furure catastrophy only to find out that his very action in the past is what brought about the future catastrophy in the first place.

Or like those who try to prevent a prophesy from coming to pass, whose very action of trying to prevent it brings about the fulfillment of the prophesy.

So I say the Incident of the H bomb is the 'Incident' that led to the building of the Harch. And since they cannot kill off the Oceanic 6, the flash/explosion/implosion will result in them being transported back to their time somehow.

If that is not the case then Everything changes. No plane crash, no locke on the island, jacob does not get killed...

I think Jacob is refering to the Ilana and her people when he said they are coming.

#313. Posted by: The Phylosopher at May 15, 2009 12:50 PM

Haven't read postings yet, please disregard this if it is a repeat:

We are assuming that the bomb detonated...but, what if that was not the case....what would happen if this was another case similar to "Desmond failing to hit the button"....or "Desmond turning the key"....what then? ? ?

#314. Posted by: Len at May 15, 2009 1:13 PM

In regards to post 251:

When you say that you think Jacob is bad; I believe that man #2 has taken on Jacob's form to meet and manipulate all of the Losties into coaxing them into their journey to the island. At the end of the season "New Locke" stated "you have no idea what I've gone through to be here." Man #2 has had to wait a long time, planning this super elaborate plan to get all the pieces to fit and have Ben be there with him.
I'm sure someone already mentioned this but I just don't have the time to do through all of these posts lol.

#315. Posted by: Earl at May 15, 2009 1:20 PM

Did anyone besides me get a little aggravated at the flip flopping of Juliet and Kate about where or not to support Jack's being hellbent to blow up the island?
→ 105. Posted by: Teddy Alvin

YES! That was quite strange. What really annoyed me about it is that these huge decisions were being made because of KATE. Ugh. Jack admitted to Sawyer that the reason he wanted to detonate Jughead was partly because of Kate. The reason Juliet changed her mind was because of the way Sawyer looked at Kate. Kate Kate Kate. Sheesh! What's so special about her anyway??

#316. Posted by: Christin at May 15, 2009 1:32 PM

@309 "Juliet lets Ben and RA take her to the island because she doesn't remember denotating the bomb because Juliet circa 2004 has not lived that yet. What she did detonating the bomb in 1977 was in the future for 2004 Juliet. She couldn't have remembered that. To me that if anything disproves any notion that the 06 die in 1977 and their minds time travel at time of death to their future selves. I'm not quite sure where that idea came from. Though it's interesting it doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe I'm just missing what you're trying to get at.
We'll see next year but I'm still thinking the bomb did not go off and their whole bodies and minds will be transported by the electromagnetic release to 2007."

I new you were coming... ;-)

I'm saying Juliette died in the explosion. and her mind was sent to her past version at birth.

We have NEVER seen anyones mind tt to the future without the deliberate use of a time machine(i.e dan 's maze, and eloise), and that one instance wasn't even a human, it was a mouse. We have never seen anyone completey time travel to the future other then during the the skipping donkey wheel.

So do that one instance of the mouse's consciousness TT a few hours into the future, is now grounds to say the losties will completely time travel 30 years into the future?

I'm just going off what we've seen already happen. Just think about charlotte skipping Through time right along with everyone else's right. As so as she starts to die we all hear her consciouness merge with her younger self. This was done without any electromagnetic burst..well after one. Add an EM burst, and all we've got is desmonds mind in the past....and only on a tempoary basis. Add a whole lotta fire and radiation to the same EM burst, and my calculations keep giving me the same Conscious TT to the past, with to living body to come back to.

#317. Posted by: MacGyver at May 15, 2009 2:03 PM

This time Locke didn't just get played for his kidney, in a sense he got played for his entire body! Maybe that was the plan all along? What/who is Locke2? Does Locke2 have both kidneys? Hrrrm. Weird. Is old Locke's mind still in Locke2's body (melded with some other entity), or is old Locke gone forever... totally body-snatched? Will Locke2 have shared/conflicted motivations with Locke1 or is he now "evil Locke"?

#318. Posted by: Pete at May 15, 2009 2:06 PM

sorry about the typos

#319. Posted by: MacGyver at May 15, 2009 2:09 PM

@ 276 shikotee - can we add Sun and Jin to the most memorable love stories in Lost history? I don't think Jin gets the props he deserves sometimes...boy does he know how to fill a tuxedo! Meow!

@264 anthony - In regard to the fact that Ben makes physical contact with Jacob when he stabs him, I am thinking they also had physical contact when RA brought boy Ben to be saved when he was shot...

@292 This is BS....I too thought about how Juliet could have saved herself from the chain but if she took the pants off, she would have had to let go of the beam she was holding on to, and she would have fallen anyway....she was damned if she did, damned if she didn't :)

#320. Posted by: Vikki at May 15, 2009 2:28 PM

Love this blog and thanks to Mac and all the regulars for enhancing my Lost viewing enjoyment.

I haven't seen this theory floated: we know that Eloise leaves the island at some point after the events of 1977 (within a few years because we see her with Daniel as a young boy playing the piano off the island.) So, after our heroes leave the temple with the bomb, I think Richard (or Widmore) takes unconcious Eloise to the unfrozen Donkey Wheel. He is afraid they're going to blow up the island and wants to get her off the island to save her (protect the leader and her fetus.) At the same time the Losties are going through with their whacky bomb plan, he convinces her to turn the wheel, which she does at the exact moment Juliet is thumping the bomb with that rock. The white light to end the season is The Foom caused by the turning of the wheel. They all get foomed to 2007. I think the bomb has to go off, as part of The Incident and stop the electromagnetic energy release from destroying the island/the world. The problem I see with all those theories that don't have the bomb going off: why did Jack have to return to the island? If the bomb doesn't go off, then Jack's return was a waste of time (forgive the pun.) Sayid shot Ben and Kate saved him, creating the Ben we all know and love. Hurley's reason for returning is nebulous, but will probably either involve the guitar, or jacob telling him it's his choice to go back, so he doesn't need a reason. But jack? Can anyone think of his "destiny" reason for going back if not to set off the bomb?

Also, can anyone explain to me why I can't make paragraph breaks when I post?

#321. Posted by: bouds at May 15, 2009 2:44 PM

Never mind :)

#322. Posted by: bouds at May 15, 2009 2:47 PM

Did Juliet's (and the finale's) exit remind anybody else of Chuck Heston's bomb detonation scene in (the infamously bad) movie "Beneath the Planet of the Apes"? He says something like "you bloody bastards!" while dying and then sets off the bomb, destroying the entire planet, and it fades to white, or black, or something. I also think Juliet curses while setting off the bomb. Just another Lost reference to the larger geek universe, methinks, I'm betting it was intentional!

#323. Posted by: Pete at May 15, 2009 2:47 PM

Ben is such a loser I wish he got stabbed instead of Jacob!

#324. Posted by: boozy at May 15, 2009 2:51 PM

→ 256. Posted by: 74 Did anyone else think Juliet is pregnant? She seemed to place her hand on her stomach a few times, and had a strange look on her face when Bernard offered her tea.

My husband and I thought so too. DK if anyone mentioned it here. Maybe being caught in the chains enabled her to fall slowly although painfully. Maybe she'll be all right. I felt just awful......sniff.

also thought that maybe that's why Juliette changed her mind. Shikotee276 gives a good reason and If she is pregnant then maybe she was thinking I can't go on like this alone and if Jack is right, I won't have to go through this. makes her predicament at the end even more tragic.

Also, Speaking of pregnancies. Richard could have been referring to the baby Eloise carries. "I am protecting our leader."

Re the tapestry. If the tapestry is a woven history and future of the island made by Jacob, I wonder if the torn piece with the statue and the front of a ship that was knifed to the wall in "Jacb's" cabin is from that tapestry and who tore it out?

And Thanks Mac for this blog. It's the best around. I have been to a few. All the great posts are atracted by your well written summary. BTW Maybe we could make your letter to D and C a petition.

#325. Posted by: berkyo at May 15, 2009 3:39 PM

apologies, i'm only up to comment 249. but i feel the need to post before i forget my point. which is this:

Little Ben was taken by Richard to the temple. In the past we assumed that he was being taken to smokey's lair under the temple. But now with the knowledge that smokey is a potentially malevolent being who opposes richard's master, it seems more likely that richard took ben directly to jacob, right?

so ben just killed jacob because he thought jacob would never acknowledge him, but in fact jacob most likely saved his life as a child!

jacob seemed like he wanted ben to stab him, maybe he was curious what would happen. but i think jacob knew he wouldn't actually die or else he wouldn't have inflamed ben with the "what about you?" comment, but would have told ben his past.

#326. Posted by: klughs at May 15, 2009 3:47 PM

excellent season finale,
fantastic review from you mac.
i have enjoyed this season even more
than previous seasons as i decided to actually post some comments in here
rather than just reading the ones posted.
i just think its great that a show like lost can bring together people from all walks of life, from all over the world to
discuss or theorize what they are thinking.

#327. Posted by: san at May 15, 2009 4:01 PM

242: Scooby-Dude - I think the point was that nobody was supposed to die. The original flight 815 would have never crashed and instead gone onwards to its destination unscathed, including all of its passengers, and flight 316 was the real flight that was supposed to get to the island, intact no less.

@245: ilovebenjaminlinusxx - If this were a Foom like the others when the island was jumping around through time (I know, it was the Losties jumping but I won't go there right now) then yes she might end up way underground buried to death. If this were more like Flight 316 flying through the portal or like when Desmond turned the key, she/they theoretically could end up anywhere on the island.

@270: jazzswimmer - Nice, hadn't thought of that. Was kinda locked into the "that's definitely Rose and Bernard" mindset.

@273: Erin P - Other than Christian, whom we had kinda figured had risen from the dead like Locke (or Locke rose from the dead like Christian), in most if not all of the cases of Smokey presenting him/itself as dead people there was always a body somewhere besides the one walking around. See: Alex, Charlie, Eko's brother, etc.

Ok, I'm only at 290. More soon.

#328. Posted by: LostedIt at May 15, 2009 4:23 PM

@bouds
Like this theory. All the pieces fit together nicely.

#329. Posted by: shark at May 15, 2009 4:37 PM

what i don't get... if Locke was really in the box, all along, with Christian's shoes on -- how is it that "Esau" ended up with these shoes? Can't remember the ep, but i do remember him clacking them together like Dorothy to get the sand off them.

#330. Posted by: vintaag at May 15, 2009 4:45 PM

So I'm all over the place on posts. Still A LOT to catch up on.

I'm gald they finally addressed what happened to the DS ring that Charlie gave to Aaron. That was something that my friend and I bring up in many of our discussions.

Previous seasons make so much sense now. I love how all the pieces are falling into place.

@ boozy - 324
"Ben is such a loser I wish he got stabbed instead of Jacob!"

I don't get you. It's like you always want to pick a fight with me!

#331. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 15, 2009 4:47 PM

@ 330. Posted by: vintaag
what i don't get... if Locke was really in the box, all along, with Christian's shoes on -- how is it that "Esau" ended up with these shoes? Can't remember the ep, but i do remember him clacking them together like Dorothy to get the sand off them.
************************************
Never mind the shoes, he got Locke's memories, body double,... The shoes are the least of the list of things he was able to get from Locke.

#332. Posted by: steve at May 15, 2009 4:53 PM

@306: Island Hopper - I like this idea, although I dislike the idea that Lapidius would have to die. Upon further review it looks like Crispy Seaplanes beat me to a response.

@318: Pete - It would appear at the moment that Locke was indeed played for his whole body this time, and lots of people were unwitting accomplices in the crime, including Ben, his cohorts, and Jack. Seems rather odd that so many people knew about the need for Locke to die and his body to return and yet everyone was apparently so terribly wrong in "aiding the devil" so to speak. I know, we're currently assuming that Jacob is on the side of good, but following that thread for now the obvious question is "So what went wrong?".

#333. Posted by: LostedIt at May 15, 2009 4:55 PM

@332: steve - The only other all-knowing entity I've seen so far is Smokey. I'd kind of ruled out Smokey as being "Esau", but now what? Do "Esau" and Jacob BOTH have the ability to "inhabit" (or more precisely, take the form of) other people's bodies, and thus by extension know/remember everything the formerly living person knew? It would seem to make sense that if one can do this then the other can as well. For that matter, who's to say that Jacob as we see him is the same body he's always presented himself as? Has he presented himself in different forms before? As far back as the show has shown him he's had the same form, but that doesn't preclude him from having a different form prior to what we've seen so far. I'm willing to bet that whatever "Esau" can do Jacob can do as well. Any unbalance in power would likely have been taken advantage of already by now.

Regarding "Esau" appearing as Locke, it would seem that Jacob could fully see "Esau" through what everyone else saw as Locke. There's going to be a ton of info next season about their relationship, how they complement/counterpart one another, the whole kit and caboodle (it is the last season, after all...). We'll just have to wait it out and speculate ad nauseum until then.

#334. Posted by: LostedIt at May 15, 2009 5:05 PM

LostedIt, yes, I think Locke's Body was the prize in a "Long Con". I'm hoping season six will reveal all the long cons of the entire series. Maybe everybody is a victim of a long con, including the ancient non-aging characters. Everybody's assumptions a reasons for being all get turned upside down. That would be weird.

#335. Posted by: Pete at May 15, 2009 5:05 PM

@san/327:

> "i just think its great that a show like lost can bring together people from all walks of life, from all over the world to discuss or theorize what they are thinking."

Couldn't agree more. It's why I think the Web is just about the coolest thing ever.

#336. Posted by: mac at May 15, 2009 5:08 PM

This finale reminded me a bit of the House finale.

If I go on I might spoil someone.

#337. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 15, 2009 5:18 PM

Kate's friend from the kiddie-Kate shoplifting flashback is the guy that Kate got killed in the robbery from early in the series, right? (nice tie-in, but I always hated that storyline anyway)

#338. Posted by: Pete at May 15, 2009 5:47 PM

juliet's demise fairly resembles desmond turning the key which causes the swan station to go kaboom. so is juliet going to appear running naked on the jungle?

#339. Posted by: ferdy at May 15, 2009 5:54 PM

@337 ilovebenjaminlinusxx said:

>This finale reminded me a bit of the House finale.

>If I go on I might spoil someone.

So hop over to the House blog and tell us there...

Added bonus - you can still be FIRST!


#340. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 15, 2009 6:00 PM

Objects that were owned or were special are probably key, otherwise why would the writer's include them.

In Egyptian beliefs, people were buried with their prized belongings to go the afterlife. My theory is that objects left behind can provide an avenue for the dead to come back because of the connection associated with the object, and perhaps you have the right to retrieve your prized possesions. So we probably will see Charlie again, otherwise why show the ring, and the crib scene.

Whether they can stay alive outside the island, but they can appear as ghosts, as we have seen before.

Real Locke could probably come back if he gave something to somebody, something special...remember who? I will let you guys think that out!

I do not believe in island resets, they will all be transported to the present time and will fight Non-Locke for the fate of us all!

#341. Posted by: Dito at May 15, 2009 6:15 PM

@341. Posted by: Dito

Objects that were owned or were special are probably key, otherwise why would the writer's include them.

In Egyptian beliefs, people were buried with their prized belongings to go the afterlife. My theory is that objects left behind can provide an avenue for the dead to come back
***********************************

I like this theory, it ties into the whole Kate and the toy airplane obsession theme. I still say that toy is the real reason she came back.

#342. Posted by: Steve at May 15, 2009 6:30 PM

@ 338. Posted by: Pete
Kate's friend from the kiddie-Kate shoplifting flashback is the guy that Kate got killed in the robbery from early in the series, right? (nice tie-in, but I always hated that storyline anyway)
_________________________________

He did not actually die in the robbery, he died before that while he was trying to help Kate escape the police. The robbery in New Mexico was staged by kate to get the toy airplane oyt of a safe deposit box

#343. Posted by: Steve at May 15, 2009 6:33 PM

I’ve read all the posts (quickly)and have a few comments.

“Locke” appeared to Ilana and her group on the beach. So, they must have known that it was not the Real Locke in their presence since they knew that the Dead Locke was in the box, but they never showed any surprise at his being there and subsequently wandering off. But then, there are lots of poker faces in this show.

Because the bomb did not detonate the way Sayid said it would, I wondered if he disarmed it – still trying to change things. Possible?

In the opening scene, those two guys seem to be dressed in “modern” clothing, no? And their conversation sounded like a conversation that could take place at the end of the series, as well. WHH.

I agree with whoever said that the riddle still has not been solved. Jacob lives below the statue; not in its shadow. Plus, wouldn’t the answer depend on the time of day – ie in what direction the shadow is being cast? Maybe Faraday’s “the light is different here” would negate that.

I dunno. I’m so confused. I can't even begin to discuss some of the heady stuff above.

#344. Posted by: lovelost at May 15, 2009 6:41 PM

I promise I will reall all the posts, but it may take a while and in the meantime I really want to know why Jake wasn't on Jacob's list?
He was touched, after all.
It's maybe because Jacob didn't want him to heal Ben?
If this was discussed before - my apologies.

#345. Posted by: Kindalost at May 15, 2009 7:12 PM

to confirm:
do we actually know what lies in the shadow of th statue?
-10 mtncbn translated: he whom we all serve.
-m translated: he who will save us all.
both sound plausible.

#346. Posted by: san at May 15, 2009 7:31 PM

I am slowly formulating a theory.

What exactly is the loophole?

Why does it have to be Locke?
If it is merely to inhabit or assume the guise of a dead guy, why not simply do so as Christian. I think that for some reason, the white tennis shoes prevent him from doing so.

Locke has the black dress shoes from Jack's father, so Esau is able to manifest himself as Locke.

Esau has manipulated circumstances in order to get Locke off the island, killed, and then delivered back to the island.

However, I think this is where Jacob inserts his will.
I think that once Esau got Locke, his loophole objective had been reached. I think this is where he stopped using the pawns.
Jacob appears to have known what that loophole was and continues to use the pawns.

I believe this is why Esau/Locke seems so surprised that Smokey (hot dead) Alex told Ben to do exactly as Locke said. I don't know that it occurred to him to do that.

The FOOMers will appear in 2007 present and still influence the course of events. Sadly, I think Juliet's service (like Michael's) is done.

Hurley and Jin and Sun have not yet impacted events, but I believe that they will be more integral to season 6. Hate to go all Hallmark, but I think in Jin and Sun's case, their love will bridge the gap of time. Jacob did tell them not to take it for granted, after all. Hurley may be even more important. He can interact/converse with the dead spirits, even more directly than Miles.

#347. Posted by: Gumbo at May 15, 2009 7:46 PM

@326 - Klughs...If my head is wrapped around the timelines and parallels correctly, 2007 Ben would not know he was, in fact, acknowledged by Jacob because 1977 Ben wasn't shot by Sayid the first time around in the 70's....

Am I right on this one, guys?

#348. Posted by: Vikki at May 15, 2009 8:07 PM

OK I waited almost 48 hours for someone else to say it...

Ben... I'm a Pisces. To Doppelganger-Locke.

Blonde-Jacob... eats Fish for Breakfast.
Brunette-Jacob... No thanks(to fish) I ate already... (coming out of the jungle as the Black Rock approaches)

Blonde-Jacob to Ben. What about you? you bug-eyed guppy? (sic)


Also Best Theory of the Day

321. Posted by: bouds at May 15, 2009 2:44 PM

Juliet did not detonate Sayid's,
Preggo-Eloise Hawking caused the bright flash by opperatig the FDW.

and thus the Hatch is erected and the and 'Jughead's cerebral cortex' is incorporated into the the failsafe device Desmond uses to destroy the Swan.

Like to see in season 6:

1. Story arc of the Black Rock crew.(pre 1954)
2. Story arc of the ajirians. (post 2009?)

and also..... maybe Ben got cancer cuz Jughead was leaking and it was burried under his jacuzzi.

#349. Posted by: CoyoteDean at May 15, 2009 9:15 PM

The new Ack Attack is not up yet, but she's got a very interesting speculations post, and the most outstanding "Benry Knows Best" of all time.

http://www.theackattack.net/

#350. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 15, 2009 9:17 PM

→ 293. Crispy Seaplanes: "Its man #2 who does not want outsiders coming to the island and dislikes that Jacob continues to bring these people to the island."

I agree, and in fact Esau/Dude 2 may see his role as protector of the island. Where have we scene that before? Our friendly "security" system, Smokey.

Even if Smokey is not Esau (although a great plot twist if true), they're playing ball for the same team.

I've suspected before that Smokey is literally bound to the island, and must always travel via connection- underground, along the surface of the ground, or through the trees- making it incapable of going up and over the sonic fence at the barracks.

Perhaps Esau is also bound to the island, whether by choice or design (circle of ash around the cabin). Once he hatched his scheme to assume a new physical form, he would have had to identify the correct form to take- soemone in a position to influence events.

The subplot with the Rousseau team could be seen as a trial run- an attempt to assume the bodies of the members of the science team, ultimately thwarted by Rousseau's suspicions.

When Smokey killed the Oceanic pilot and Eko, it may have been looking for a suitable vessel, and finding them insufficient, killed them.

It's interesting now to look back at how Smokey has always been perceived as black, except for Locke who described it as white and beautiful. When Esau/Smokey identified Locke as the right target, it may have downloaded his thoughts and memories in preperation for Jacob's killing.

Christian was the proper form to take to influence Jack and Claire, but "Christian" could never have led the Others to Jacob's statue, nor could "Yemi".

If I'm right that Esau/Smokey may be bound to the island, then the ghostly off-island visions of Claire, Charlie, etc. may have originated from another source, such as Jacob.

Some months ago, Doc Jensen speculated that the warnings "You're not supposed to raise him" were not directed towards Jack's parenting of Aaron, but were instead warnings to not "raise" Locke from the dead. That's a pretty interesting theory now that we've seen the recent events.

#351. Posted by: Mizzed at May 16, 2009 1:29 AM

Maybe these things have already been mentioned, but I might have missed them.
They are probably not important in the whole scheme of things, but they are the nit-picky little things that bug me:

1. When Sawyer was talking to Jack about his parents during their "5 minute talk," he says that they died "a year ago" (from their present lives in '77.) If that's the case, they would have died in '76. So in what possible way could he have gone back on the sub and prevented their deaths like he considered doing? (Even though he said that he wouldn't, because WHH, or some similar expression.) The only way that he would be able to save them would be if they died the NEXT year, not the previous year.

2. Does Richard realize that Locke has been taken over by Man #2, and if so, when does he realize it? Does Richard even know about the existence of the Esau entity? Somehow, in his discussions with Locke2, I suspect that RA suspects something . . .

3. Richard is with Jack, Sayid, Kate, Eloise, and the bomb down in the tunnels. After he breaks through the wall and they find themselves by the interior wall of a Dharma house, he clonks Leader Eloise on the head and tells the others that they are on their own. This is in 1977, right?

Suddenly Richard is with Esau/Locke and Ben to help with the Jacob-hunting ~~~ but what has he done with Eloise, the leader? And now I'm really confused, because I thought that Locke, Ben, and their merry band were still in 2007. When did they go back to '77, or did they? And if they didn't, how did RA get to time-travel 30 years to join them?

4. And where is little Ben while all of this is going on?

5. Aren't the Ajira group (with dead Locke) still in 2007? If they FOOMED back to '77, I missed it. So if they are in 2007, how are they showing dead Locke to folks who are still in '77?

6. Are Rose, Bernard, and Vincent in '77 or 2007?

I really need a timeline for all of these people. Confusion reigns in my head, which is going to explode . . .

#352. Posted by: LostLove at May 16, 2009 2:30 AM

On Smokey and Juliet

I have not seen mention of the remarkable parallel between the chains tugging Juliet into the pit and Smokey--the sounds, the visuals, everything. Could one part Juliet, one part Electromagnetic Explosion, one part Nuclear Explosion yield a peculiar smoke-chain arbiter of justice? And could her fate in that pit be connected to the infertility issue she later comes to solve?

#353. Posted by: Late Viewer at May 16, 2009 4:30 AM

This one's long, sorry...

1. Jacob/Esau in the Bible: Esau as the older twin was supposed (destined?) to get the blessing from their father as his birthright. Jacob tricked him into giving it up, then tricked their father into blessing him instead. Esau then spends years trying to get his revenge, but as someone said, they eventually kiss and make up. I don't know how far Lost takes these analogies, but there's a theme there of choice overruling destiny, which seems possibly to be becoming a big theme in Lost too...

No one's said it yet, but I suddenly remembered that when Lost talked to Abaddon at Helen's grave about having to die, Abaddon suggested that it was his choice. (Can anyone help with the exact phrasing??) This I think was the only time someone tried to sway Locke from the 'destiny' thing. Any ideas how this could be significant?

--------------------------------------

I also thought it might be helpful to create a list of what all the dead folk have said to our Losties. While Jacob didn't try to influence anyone directly in island matters (except Hurley - and even then he emphasised that he had a choice), dead folk have often given all kinds of advice. I can't remember exactly what all of them have said though so feel free to fill in the gaps!

Visitors to Locke:
- Various dreams and visions that guide him (Boone, Yemi, Horace, Ana-Lucia, Drug Plane etc)
- Boone - led him on a quest to save Eko which in turn led him to Eko's stick.
- Walt (not dead but vision) - told him to get out of the pit 'cause he had work to do. (Locke later told Sawyer that Walt had also told him to kill Naolmi and stop the freighter coming to the island.)
- Himself via Richard - told him to bring everyone back, and that he would have to die.
- Christian - told him to turn the FDW and to take the other Losties to Eloise, confirmed that he would die and asked him to say hi to Jack.

Visitors to Kate:
- Weird phonecall?? - told her to go back to the island.
- Claire - told her not to take Aaron back to the island.

Visitors to Jack:
- Christian - said nothing.

Visitors to Hurley:
- Charlie - tells him that the people still on the island need him, and gives him a message for Jack: "You're not supposed to raise him."
- Ana-Lucia - told him to stay away from the police, that he had work to do and that Libby said hi.
- Eko - they play chess...
- Christian (in the cabin) - says nothing.

Visitors to Ben:
- His Mother - tells him to wait and be patient.


So are all these visions linked? How do they influence the characters?

--------------------------------------

I do think it might be important that Hurley is singled out by Jacob and asked to return to the island. He tells him he is blessed. Why does Jacob want Hurley on the island (something to do with Charlie?), and is Hurley's role different from the others - who mostly seem to have returned due to misguided faith in destiny...?

#354. Posted by: Jo at May 16, 2009 5:17 AM

Oh one thing I forgot to say - it certainly looks like Man#2 isn't a fan of people coming to the island. Which seems to back up his possible involvement in:
- Walt's instructions to Locke to get rid of the freighter guys
- DeadLocke's implication to Richard that the Ajiran survivors would need to be 'dealt with'

And to maybe suggest his possible involvement in:
- the Dharma purge
- the elimination of the army guys who were responsible for Jughead (mentioned by Richard in 1954)
- the killing of all Danielle's crew by Smokey (and Widmore's instructions to Ben to kill her and Alex too?)

Which begs the question, why was/is Man#2 happy with the Others being on the island? Some/most of them have certainly been recruited from off the island so they're not all original inhabitants...

#355. Posted by: Jo at May 16, 2009 5:33 AM

MacGyver--I think I get what you're saying. Not sure if I think that's what happened but I guess its aas possible as anything else on this wacky show!

Mizzed-351--I'm with ya on all that

bouds-321--I could totally picture the FDW scene as the first scene of the next season

Lostlove-352--RA is in both 1977 and 2007 because he has lived on the island continuously throughout that 30 years but does not seem to age. notLocke and company were still in 2007 and Jack and company still in 1977. RA was in both periods at different points in his life.
Sawyer could have gone off island on the sub to save his parents in 1976 since he has been in the 70's for 3 years at that point since 1974.

323. Posted by: Pete
I was reminded of the ending of Jaws
"Smile you sunofab----!" BOOM!

WGNABB!

#356. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 16, 2009 9:54 AM

@308 welh on how and why the reanimated eat and drink, among other things.

Egyptian life/death/life theory does seem to fit and I think is connected to why Richard wanted the corpse of Amy's husband and possibly how Ben survived the gunshot, as opposed to the dead who were buried or burned. They will remain dead. And if I recall my Mummification 101 class, the heart is left in the body when the rest of the innards are removed because the Egyptians believe the heart is essentially a person's consciousness.

@321 bouds. I like your logic. If the bomb didn't go off, there was no point of Jack returning to the island, and he could have let that beard continue to grow (or maybe call Bernard for some tips). Thus, kaboom.

@325 berkyo. I threw out the idea that Juliet could be pregnant back up at #65, but sad to say, I think she's dead.

Chang a.k.a. Candle (why did he use a pseudonym for the Dharma videos?) said in the Swan orientation film that the Incident was an electromagnetic anomaly, not a nuke, but radiatiactive fallout from the nuke could explain the Hazmat suits and could be connected with why women have miscarriages (one of the effects of nuclear fallout per wiki Nuclear Fallout page).

@328 LostedIt. I think the point was that nobody was supposed to die.

But then doesn't that contradict what actually did happen (they died) and thus contradict WHH?

#357. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 16, 2009 10:35 AM

@353 Lostloveasked:

>1. When Sawyer was talking to Jack about his parents during their "5 minute talk," he says that they died "a year ago" (from their present lives in '77.) If that's the case, they would have died in '76. So in what possible way could he have gone back on the sub and prevented their deaths like he considered doing?

Sawyer was talking about if he had gone back on the sub in 1974, when the Head Hippie offered to send them back on the sub just after they had arrived, explaining they has been shipwrecked.

#358. Posted by: cecil at May 16, 2009 10:40 AM


Ok, I've only made it through 250 posts so if any of this is repeats, please forgive.


Man #2 on the beach says "One of these days, we're going to find a loophole." Who are 'we?'

Did new Locke know that dead Locke was in the box? Why would he tell the Ajirans that he had been killed unless he wanted to cause confusion somehow. Did he realize who these people were and he wanted them to follow him? I was also wondering where he got his new clothes from since he was buried in a suit. Where's the coffin?

If everyone flashes up to 2007, what will be the long journey that Sun needs to take per Christian?

Who spliced the tapes and spread them around the island and why and when?

Jacob had to live in the cabin at some point because Ilana and crew knew just where to go. They've either been there before or know the island intimately because they headed straight for the foot without thinking.

Am I correct that during the attempt to blow up the Swan that Ben is still missing? Maybe he's not even on the island. Where are Richard and his troop? Desmond's implosion didn't seem to affect anyone but him. Maybe Juliet will be the only one affected by the incident.


QUOTE from Radzinski "I came to this island to change the world." Spooky


Walt told John he has work to do. Christian tells Vincent Jack has work to do. Does that separate them onto different teams or bring them together?

#359. Posted by: pebspostal at May 16, 2009 10:49 AM

Man #2 = Julian, from O'Connors book.

Airjirans = Jacob's people, brought Lockes body to show the Others that their Locke is Julian.

Jacob's touch is a mark, they are blessed.

The bomb explosion is to set everything in motion, according to Jacobs plan, that is two moves ahead of Julian.

Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Juliet, Hugo, Locke, Ben, even Richard, are all chess pieces. Rose and Bernard are not.

Richard figures out that Locke is not who he says.

#360. Posted by: Neal Mindflood at May 16, 2009 10:57 AM

Several folks have said that Hurley was the only 06 post crash contact with Jacob, but Sayid saw Jacob after returning and reuniting/marrying Nadia. Am I missing something?

#361. Posted by: Constant Confusion at May 16, 2009 11:30 AM

I don't think anyone mentioned the caffine thing with Juliet. My friend pointed it out as we were watching it.

Rose offers tea to Juliet. She puts her hand on her stomach and says, "maybe later".

I don't know much about being pregnant, but my friend said as we were watching that you can't have caffine when you're prego. Or you're supposed to avoid it or something.

#362. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 16, 2009 11:57 AM

Thanks to Crispy Seaplanes (356) and Cecil (358) for your explanations. I forgot about the earlier sub ride that had been offered to Sawyer. Now it makes sense.

→ 353. Posted by: Late Viewer:

"On Smokey and Juliet

I have not seen mention of the remarkable parallel between the chains tugging Juliet into the pit and Smokey--the sounds, the visuals, everything. Could one part Juliet, one part Electromagnetic Explosion, one part Nuclear Explosion yield a peculiar smoke-chain arbiter of justice? And could her fate in that pit be connected to the infertility issue she later comes to solve?"

I really like this observation.

About Smokey and Jacob:

I found myself wondering if Jacob becomes Smokey after Ben stabs him and Locke kicks him into the fire . . .

#363. Posted by: LostLove at May 16, 2009 12:24 PM

Alright...

I gotta chime in about this Esau business! I gotta call shenanigans!

Gotta say - I don't mind the speculation - I just don't like the constant referral to a name that is by far nowhere near proven.

In any case....
For all you Jacob and Esau lovers....

*********INSANE SPECULATION SPOILER ****

Rumour has it that in S6, we will be introduced to Jacob's sons. Casting rumours have it that one son, Joseph, will be played by Donny Osmond. Costume rumours are that he will wear Colin Baker's 6th Doctor outfit from "Doctor Who".

In a tribute to Josh Whedon's "Buffy" musical episode ("Once More, With Feeling"), this episode will be done as a musical. I have it on good authority that this will be one of the songs:

_______________________

(Narrator)
Way way back many centuries ago,
Not long after the Bible began,
Jacob lived in the land of Canaan
A fine example of a family man.
Jacob....Jacob and sons!
Depended on farming to earn their keep.
Jacob....Jacob and sons!
Spent all of his days in the fields with sheep

Jacob was the founder of a whole new nation,
Thanks to the number of children he had.
He was also known as Israel, but most of the time,
His sons and his wives used to call him Dad.
Jacob....Jacob and sons!
Men of the soil, of the sheaf and crook
Jacob....Jacob and sons!
A remarkable family in anyone's book.

Reuben was the eldest of the children of Israel,
With Simeon and Levi the next in line,
Napthali and Isaachar with Asher and Dan
Zebulon and Gad took the total to nine
Jacob....Jacob and sons!
Benjamin and Judah, which leaves only one
Jacob....Jacob and sons!
Joseph -- Jacob's favorite son!
Jacob....Jacob and sons!
Jacob....Jacob and sons!
Jacob....Jacob and sons!
Jacob, Jacob, Jacob
Jacob and sons!!!!!!"

(Jacob)
Joseph's mother, she was quite my favorite wife,
I never really loved another all my life
And Joseph was my joy because
He reminded me of her

(Narrator)
Through young Joseph, Jacob lived his youth again
Loved him, praised him, gave him all he could, but then
It made the rest feel second best
And even if they were

(Brothers)
Being told we're also-rans
Does not make us Joseph fans

(Narrator)
But where they had really missed the boat is

(Brothers)
We're great guys but no-one seems to notice

(Narrator)
Joseph's charm and winning smile
Failed to slay them in the aisle
And his father couldn't see the danger
He could not imagine any danger
He just saw in Joseph all his dreams come true.

Jacob wanted to show the world he loved his son
To make it clear that Joseph was the special one
So Jacob bought his son a coat
A multi-colored coat to wear

(Brothers & Female Ensemble)
Joseph's coat was elegant
The cut was fine
The tasteful style was the
Ultimate in good design
And this is why it caught the eye
A king would stop and stare

(Narrator)
And when Joseph tried it on
He knew his sheepskin days were gone
Such a dazzling coat of many colors
How he loved his coat of many colors

In a class above the rest
It even went well with his vest
Such a stunning coat of many colors
How he loved his coat of many colors
It was red and yellow and green and
Brown and blue

Joseph's brothers weren't
Too pleased with what they saw

(Brothers)
We had never liked him
All that much before
And now this coat
Has got our goat
We feel life is unfair

(Narrator)
And when Joseph graced the scene
His bothers turned a shade of green
His astounding clothing took the biscuit

(Brothers)
Quite the smoothest person in the district

(Joseph)
I look handsome, I look smart
I am a walking work of art
Such a dazzling coat of many colors
How I love my coat of many colors

(Narrator and Ensemble)
It was red and yellow and green and brown,
And scarlet and black and ocher and peach,
And ruby and olive and violet and fawn,
And lilac and gold and chocolate and mauve,
And cream and crimson and silver and rose,
And azure and lemon and russet and grey,
And purple and white and pink and orange...."
_______________________________

**** END OF INSANE SPECULATION SPOILER ****

You heard it here first!!!!

#364. Posted by: shikotee at May 16, 2009 4:05 PM

Quick thought....

It's interesting that Locke2 points out the hatch lid, with the words "quarantined" written on it.

I totally forgot about the way earlier storyline that the island was contaminated (ie hazmat suit, innoculations, etc)

Could this story thread have sprung from the "detonation" or involvement of the hydrogen bomb?

#365. Posted by: shikotee at May 16, 2009 4:28 PM

@364. Posted by: shikotee
LMAO! I bet a scarf would be the perfect accessory for a technicolor dreamcoat!

Was just over at Lostpedia getting a reminder that Benjamin was one of Jacob's sons -- jealous of Joseph, of course -- and read an interesting theory saying that Jacob is not dead for the simple reason that Ben stabs him in 2007 but Jacob visits Hurley in 2008, the day before Ajira 316. The problem with this theory, though, is that Lostpedia itself is the source for the "fact" that Ajira left LA in 2008 and landed on Hydra island back in 2007. Is there any real proof that Ajira left LA in 2008 and not 2007?

#366. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 16, 2009 4:29 PM

@-mac
thanks for the sledgeweb link re: the shadow of the statue question info.
i had somehow missed this whilst reading your review.

#367. Posted by: san at May 16, 2009 5:10 PM

@219 Paul asked:

Last night we saw Roger get shot (by Dead-Eye-Doc?) and if he died it's another departure from WHH. Even if he didn't, it's hard to see how events could get back to Ben working for Dharma and gassing his dad.

___________________________________

Dead eye doc took three shots at roger. he missed with all three and Roger is hiding behind the tree. When Hurley pulls up in the van you can clearly see Roger behind the tree.

#368. Posted by: Steve at May 16, 2009 5:15 PM

i think the people in charge of casting deserve some praise for season 5,
their choice of actors/actresses who played the part of young-ben,juliet,kate & sawyer was very good.
in my opinion i would have to say - the kid who played the new kids on the block obsessed kate was the best.

#369. Posted by: san at May 16, 2009 9:40 PM

Gosh, I leave town for 24 hours and 200 gillion posts show up on Saturday night.

PiecesofArzt posted in #262: “Jacob” got his leg amputated on CSI tonight.

I also watched the episode on my DVR this evening and said to my wife at one point “You know . . the gal who plays the cafe owner played Libby on LOST. She got shot to death on that show too....”

The wife looks over and quietly says, “She’s obviously a good die-er!”

I get no respect.

BTW: All the old folks on this blog have been to my website before and know that I’m into model trains. The last entry on my website was two days before the final episode this season. Google “davidrholsinger” and check out page 45 in the “trains” section.

I paid a little homage to the show. I think you’ll enjoy it.

Have a great week.

#370. Posted by: davidrh at May 16, 2009 10:58 PM

→ 364. shikotee: "I gotta chime in about this Esau business! I gotta call shenanigans! Gotta say - I don't mind the speculation - I just don't like the constant referral to a name that is by far nowhere near proven."

"Esau" is just a place holder name, and a better one to continually type than "Man #2".

My original post about Jacob-Esau and Osiris-Set was to suggest that the story is following in the steps of many classic brother vs. brother rivalry myths.

I doubt very much that TPTB would make such an obvious choice as to actually name "Man #2" Esau, but I think the comparison to Egyptian mythology and the Bible may still be valid.

On a different topic, many posters are still arguing against WHH, with the most recent debate point Jack's Most Excellent Adventure at the Swan station.

Now that season 5 is in the books, for all of the discussion the characters had about WHH, and for all the effort that each made to alter the future, hasn't everything happened just as it always needed to? From Rouusseau, Ethan and Ben being saved to Miles and Charlotte being safely taken off the island as children to Faraday being shot by his mother, it's been one big heaping helping of WHH after another.

Last episode started with Jacob weaving his tapestry, a direct reference to the Greek concept of the Fates weaving human destiny on their looms. It would be hard to come up with a more vivid image that the Lost playground contains one giant destiny sandbox.

#371. Posted by: Mizzed at May 16, 2009 11:07 PM

Am I the only one having a problem with inconsitent dates and the designated ages of characters? A few examples:

1. Daniel Faraday was a professor at Oxford in 1996, when Desmond came to visit him in "The Constant." Yet in 1977, Eloise is barely pregnant with him. Yes, he said he was the youngest professor at Oxford, but 19? How many 19 year olds can even grow a beard?

2. Ethan was born in 1977? Yet he was already an established surgeon in 2004 and died at the age of 27? How old was he when he went to medical school, 16? And why is he played by an actor in his late 30s?

3. Miles is born in 1977, which would make him 30, though Ken Leung is 39 and going grey.

4. Ben and Locke are each ten about ten years younger than the actors who play them -- and they look their age. What's up with that?

5. Also, Phil comes to Sawyer with a video tape from the security camera -- and it's VHS. In 1977, video tapes were almost non-existent, but the few there were were Beta.

6. The "incident" is taking place in 1977, yet the film of Dr. Chang talking about it is dated 1970, AND it's in super 8 format when clearly they're already using video tapes in 1977.

#372. Posted by: Jak at May 16, 2009 11:56 PM

uuuuuuuuuh . . .

It's "TV" Jak. You know, like "pretend stuff". They don't necessarily have to be accurate, they just have to be entertaining.

It could have been worst . . . Think like Ed Asner playing Jack and Betty White as Kate . . . Now THAT would be some casting to be concerned about!

:-)

#373. Posted by: davidrh at May 17, 2009 7:45 AM

→ 366. Scooby-Dude: "The problem with this theory, though, is that Lostpedia itself is the source for the "fact" that Ajira left LA in 2008 and landed on Hydra island back in 2007. Is there any real proof that Ajira left LA in 2008 and not 2007?"

Lostpedia does an exhaustive effort at trying to put together a reasonable timeline. In this case, the keys are a newspaper Jack reads when he and Kate are still together which is dated August 31st, 2007, and the passport Widmore gives Locke after he turns the FDW, dated December 12, 2007.

These dates suggest Jack's descent into madness happens late 2007, and that the events which led the Oceanic 6 to return happened in late December 2007-January 2008.

Since the folks at Lostpedia (reasonably) think that it would take Locke more than 2 weeks to travel the world, get hit by a car, recuperate in the hospital, and ultimately decide to commit suicide, they have created a timeline that puts the Ajira flight in January 2008.

Unfortunately, the Lost writers this season have continued to use the 1977 dates combined with the "30 years later" title cards. This either means that a. the folks at Lostpedia are far more diligent and consistent in tracking a logical timeframe than the actual Lost creative team, or b. when Ajira entered the island's "snow globe", it went back in time a few months to 2007.

That "b" explanation may be why we have yet to revisit the infamous outrigger boat chase between the Sawyer-Juliet group and the Ajirans. Who knows? Perhaps the Sawyer group will foom back to the present and chase themselves, in a desperate but futile attempt to save Charlotte and Juliet's lives.

→ 372. Jak: "Am I the only one having a problem with inconsitent dates and the designated ages of characters?"

A few responses:

*the Chang films are copyrighted 1980, not 1970
*the VHS format was introduced internationally in 1976 and in the US in 1977
* we know that Hawking is pregnant, but we don't necessarily know yet whether Daniel is the baby
* the "Ethan is a surgeon" comment came from Ben when he was trying to guilt Jack into the surgery, so I wouldn't necessarily take that at face value.

#374. Posted by: Mizzed at May 17, 2009 11:18 AM

What happened to Claire and Jack's dad????

#375. Posted by: Lori at May 17, 2009 12:16 PM

*Continuous Loger Poster Alert*
*Irrelevant Rant warning*

Abc has just released an official statement thanking Lost fans for their relentless dedication and patience. Coining us as 'the hardest working fans in show business'. To reward us, they have decided to give us every wednesday night off for the next 8 months! Wait!!! There's MORE!!! The writers have promised to NEVER air any more series rec-caps enhanced or not, no more 'Extra' survivors',And No commercials. They leave us with an apology for shooting BEN and forcing us to watch Kate and Sawyer save him, followed by the infamous "traveling gunshot wound". They implied that everyone was drunk that week.

Then I woke up
and realized I need to finish my theory for someone takes it. For the record, I posted a theory(another site claiming the others must have the abilty to posses bodies the night little ben was shotwhen little been was shot. Laughed at and riducled so much I had to put it on the backburner. Now ,after the finale, not only has it been embraced by most, and plagiarised by same rookie lostie I explained it too...after I felt sorry for them for now knowing WTF lostpedia is.
Besides... How do you call possesion, with two identical bodies? So please, to whom I will not name, The next time copy my answers, make sure you turn them in to the right proffessor, with YOUR name(not mine). I wanna see you graduate just so I can kick your ass again next year. shenanaginsss!!!
;-)

#376. Posted by: MacGyver at May 17, 2009 12:21 PM

I read in the newspaper this morning that they are teaching college classes based on Lost. Wow!

I haven't added much to this lately, but I still read the reviews. A few comments I have:

1. Don't think Juliet is gone. I believe they are all gone and going to wake up in another time.

2. Maybe the next season (is it the last?) will focus on the plane landing in LA and then some type of flashes to tie up loose ends

3. Rose & Bernard - definitely Adam and Eve!

4. Where is Claire? Where is Cindy? Where are the kids?

5. Ben truly fell from Grace. I used to be attracted to him for his evil power, but now he's just a sniveling loser. How did that happen??!

6. How could Sun leave her kid, and risk her life like that. The poor kid may soon be an orphan, and for what?

More later. I am having a surprisingly lucid day.

Where are some of the oldies? iluvbenlinus? redneckman? others???

#377. Posted by: meg at May 17, 2009 12:58 PM

UGH! My fellow Losties at work think i'm nutz cause i won't let her go but, WHAT ABOUT ANNIE!!!! "Just a thought" Final min.of final season. We see old Ben @ wife Annie telling the grand kids this outlandish bedtyme story.

#378. Posted by: T-Spoon at May 17, 2009 1:14 PM

→ 372. Posted by: Jak:

"1. Daniel Faraday was a professor at Oxford in 1996, when Desmond came to visit him in "The Constant." Yet in 1977, Eloise is barely pregnant with him. Yes, he said he was the youngest professor at Oxford, but 19? How many 19 year olds can even grow a beard?"

For what it's worth, I know a surgeon (a good friend who saved my life, by the way) who was already in college at age 15 and nearly out of medical school by 19.

It appears that there are geniuses IRL, so I guess that Eloise harping at Daniel to stop playing the piano and get busy using his mega-brain was to convince us that he could be the youngest professor ever . . .


#379. Posted by: LostLove at May 17, 2009 1:16 PM

@t-spoon - You can't let Annie go, and I can't let Cindy go. She's a fascinating character with tons of potential. She got the short end of the contract, I think. Bring her back!!!!!

#380. Posted by: meg at May 17, 2009 1:27 PM

@ meg (380) Thanx, i really needed that, thought i was the only one "stuck on stupid" as some have said. We just have to "Hold on". i think that was a old ENVOUGE song. early 90's maybe. i'm dating myself.

#381. Posted by: T-spoon at May 17, 2009 1:39 PM

To add to the Man #2 & Esau/biblical parallel's, here are a few more in no particular order:

John 4:6 references "Jacob's Well"

Ecclesiastes 12:6 references the "broken wheel at the well"

Jacob's youngest son is Benjamin. Benjamin's mother died during childbirth.

In Genesis 46, Jacob moves his family to Egypt

Esau was hairy while Jacob was smooth skinned.

Jacob tricked Esau out of his birthright and father's blessing

Certainly not saying this is where they are going....just interesting.

#382. Posted by: Towley at May 17, 2009 2:20 PM

Just some timelines that might help
Thanks Lostpedia
(some year guesses)


O-6 visits by Blond-Jacob
-------------------------


1 1980's Kate's lunchbox- toy airplane

2 1990's? Jack - apollo candy bar - count to 5

3 1999? Sun-Jin wedding

4 2005 Sayid - Nadia rundown by the SUV on their 1 year anniversary

5 2008 Hurley - gets charlie's guitar

6 Aaron visit not known. (is the guitar linked to Charlie-DS ring-Aaron's crib)


The four O-6 visited by Locke went to 1977 on Ajira-316
Kate, Jack, Sayid, Hurley(Charlie's guitar-constant?)

Illana Ben Dead-Locke Frank Sun went back just one year to 1977


Other Blond-Jacob non O-6 off-island missions
------------------------------------

1976 Sawyer's parents funeral - pen

2000 Locke - pushed out of the window.

2006? Illana - bandaged in russian/ukraine? hospital(Chernobyl burns?)... I need a favor.


Richard's off-island visits
---------------------------

1956 Locke born 3 months pre-mature
1961 Locke as a 5 y/o boy
1972 Locke as 16 y/o to recruit for Mittelos Laboratories 'summer camp'
2001 Juliet to recruit her Mittelos Laboratories again
2004 Filming Juliet's sister with Jule's nephew on the swings in Florida
2006 RA brings Locke's birth dad 'Cooper/Sawyer' to the Island from Talahassee.


1977 Island
-----------

Richard Jin Juliet Sawyer Miles Daniel Charles Eloise Rose Bernard Kate Jack Hurley(Charlie's guitar)

2007 Island
-----------

Richard Dead-Locke in Christian's shoes
Ben Illana Sun Frank(the pilot)


Island Arrivals
---------------

BC? Jacob and Buddy and Smokey? and the Statue/temple/tunnels?

1870's? Black Rock (Brit/Aussie accents)

1954 Jughead/US military (hostiles wipe out US nuke team)

1970's? Dharma Initiative and polar bears(Hydra Island)

1973 Ben 8 y/o via Sub

1988 Rouseau and crew.

December 19, 1992 Ben's Birthday Purge of Dharma Initiative.

2001? Smuggler's plane Yemi Heroin

2002? Henry Gale and wife via hot air ballon

2003? Desmond via Sailboat 'Elizabeth' (Libby's)

2004 Oceanic-815 (losties)

2007 Widmore's Freighter 'Kahana' and Helicopter

2008 Ajira-316(2007 Hydra Island - 1977 Dharma Island)


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Ajira-316... Dead JOHN Locke... JOHN 3:16

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Et-Tu Brutus er... Ben er... Judas

#383. Posted by: CoyoteDean at May 17, 2009 5:50 PM

I watched the pilot again last night, and, I don't know guys, I am beginning to think the 815 crash isn't the first time Jack or Locke's been to the island...

A few curious things...
-Jack is no where near the other 815'ers after the crash (I know that's been mentioned...)
-The first thing he sees is Vincent, yet he's not the least bit startled that a golden lab is running by him in the middle of a bamboo patch
-The first thing he does is reach in his pocket to take out the extra bottle of vodka that Cindy (and her scarf) gave him as though he knew he would need to ask for an extra in the first place - he will later use this to sterilize Kate's hands and his wound as she stitches him up
-He gets up and runs straight towards the crash scene from the middle of a jungle...how did he know where to run?
-He recounts the story of counting to five when he messed up his first major surgery, but when he tells Kate this story, he leaves Christian out...
-And while he is playing Dr. Fix It on the beach, it's as though he knows exactly what will happen next based on how the director shoots the scenes...

On to Locke
-We assume he is amazed that he can walk again when he wiggles his toes....maybe he's really amazed because he made it back to the island
-He sits alone when it begins to downpour in the exact same way we see him for the first time after Ajira crashes
-Then there's the memorable scene while he plays backgammon with Walt...first, he calls him Walt even though we haven't seen them be introduced...then they start to play the game, and the last thing Locke says to Walt is, "Walt, would you like to know a secret?" Did we ever learn what that secret was? Maybe it's not the fact that he could walk but the secret is the story of Lost, that he has made it back...and thus, the circle begins again

All this might mean absolutely nothing and we can chalk it up to one of what I am sure will be many wacky theories we were all waaaaaay off about, but if you have got the time to re-watch the first two episodes, it might be worth it...If anybody actually does so or has done this recently, I would be interested to see what you think...

#384. Posted by: Vikki at May 17, 2009 7:07 PM

Although I can't imagine how Esau will explain Locke's carcass away to the congregation, I do wonder (if he manages to do it) if Miles will foom back to the present & throw a monkeywrench in Esau's plans by chatting with Locke's carcass?

I really dislike Ben's sniveling self. I am hanging on to a thread of hope that Ben is in cahoots with Jacob.

#385. Posted by: undaunted at May 17, 2009 9:34 PM

Part 1 of The Incident's review is up at the Ack Attack.

www.theackattack.net

#386. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 17, 2009 11:17 PM

@384...It's not viki when you get the chance ...read my theory still unbunked. I'm attemptng to write the second half now. I might change some small things on it, but the most important part is that they die. ALL the flashes with jacob AfTER that bomb went off. He touches them so that...well sometimes people need a little push
***********
My next post is hands down ........The theory for the island and why this is the only show that f**&^ matters. DO NOT READ MY NEXT POST IF YOU DON"T want your mind and ego completely blown.

#387. Posted by: MacGyver at May 18, 2009 2:54 AM

I know why the bomb didn't go off when first thrown down the hole!

They didn't pull the holy pin and then count to three--no more no less! Man Sayid forgot to read the Book of Armaments before they left for the Swan!

#388. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 18, 2009 8:50 AM

OK, I know this isn't anywhere as deep as so many of your excellent posts, but here it is. I re-watched the finale this weekend and heard yet another great Sawyer nickname: he refers to Miles as "Enos", as in deputy to Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane. LOL!

Thanks to Mac for getting us focused every week, and thanks to all of you who can take the time to try to make sense of the mythology and the science. It will be a long 8 months...

#389. Posted by: jaybee at May 18, 2009 10:46 AM

@364 - shikotee - wrote: Gotta say - I don't mind the speculation - I just don't like the constant referral to a name that is by far nowhere near proven.
@371 - Mizzed wrote: "Esau" is just a place holder name, and a better one to continually type than "Man #2".

I agree with shikotee on this - so I will love him, and hug him and feed him... and call him "Nemesis" in all my posts on this blog.

#390. Posted by: vacc at May 18, 2009 11:41 AM

@378 –- Ben and Annie telling the grandkids a bedtime story. You mean like "How I Met Your Mother," Lost style?

You see kids, back before I met your grandmother Annie, I was a little snot-nosed kid who liked to make sandwiches and dress up like Harry Potter. But then I got shot by some mean ole assassin, who somehow managed to kill everyone he shot except for me. Then some couple drove me to a weird Egyptian guy named Ricky Ricardos, who carried me to some crazy temple, and the next thing I remember is meeting your grandmother on the swings and she's singing this beautiful song "Maybe." I was moved to tears. But it was dark that day, and when she sang, "The sun'll come out, tomorrow," all of a sudden there was a bright flash of light and instead of Annie sitting there on the swings, there was some dude named Joseph sporting a technicolor dreamcoat and singing about predicting the future.

But I digress. Back when I met your other grandmother, Danielle, she was acting a little crazy. When I say crazy, I mean she was not copus....wait for it....mentus. So when I, um, adopted your mother, Alex, there weren't a lot of papers to sign or anything like that. I had a pretty cool moppy hairdo back then too. When your mother grew up, she was in the genius class with Malcolm and Stevie, but she got kicked out because she nailed some kid with her slingshot and got sent to the island. That's when she met your father, Carl. As you know, kids, your daddy Carl watched way too much TV and kept rambling on about loving some guy named Jacob, so they had to take him away. So remember, kids, too much TV is bad for your health.

#391. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 18, 2009 12:01 PM

Man in white is Jacob, Black is Esau from the bible.

The struggle between Jacob and Esau began right from their conception and birth:

"And Isaac entreated The Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and The Lord was entreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of The Lord. And The Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them." (Genesis 25:21-26 KJV)

Jacob made the hut and did live there pretending that was his only home to keep safe from Esau. Once Esau learned how to get into circle Jacob fleed to his 'secret real home in the statue" hense why Esau had to have Richard take him to see him.

Esau is the 'smoke monster'. Esau was living in the hut; remember seeing Christian in there a few times??? Hense why they burned it!

Esau is in a 'spirit like state' where he is waiting to be reborn "Aaron". Remember that is why the guy in Austalia told Claire that seh has to raise him or he will feel once again abanded and not favored like the first time around from him mom.

Season 6 will show Esau touching all the other people on the island that he needs there to throw the timline in his favor!

The numbers equal the date and time that the 'energy' needs to be sent back to in time. The computer was set to do this once you punch in the date / time using only digits.

I am doing this because i was let go due to 'financial situations in the economy' this means my NDA is now null avoid!

#392. Posted by: Former Employee at May 18, 2009 12:14 PM

@351: Mizzed - I think you've re-touched on a subject (Doc Jensen's deduction about "you're not supposed to raise him") that may very well prove to be one of those obscure predictions of his that turned out to be correct.

@357: Scooby-Dude - Yes, I think it absolutely contradicts the WHH theorem, so to speak. That being said, I think even Farraday now believes (believed? - RIP) that the past can be changed. My running theory is that this is all a massive chess game between Jacob and "Esau" (I will not be removing those quotes until I hear confirmation - likely in 2010 - that it really is his name), with each of them influencing actions by/to the people on the show. Scooby Dude brought up a theory from Doc Jensen that I'd also mentioned here back when DJ had first postulated it - that Clair and Charlie's messages to Kate and Jack respectively that "Don't you dare bring him back" and "You're not supposed to raise him" were not in reference to Aaron but rather to Locke. Knowing what we now know today, that theory is back in play, and actually places the actions of many of the "visions" on the show into question, at least in terms of their motivation. The visions, both by living and dead (supposedly or not) have each given messages to the known living. For instance, the vision of Walt to Jack as he lay in the Dharma Purge Pit. "Walt" told Jack that he had work to do. That could now be thought of in the context of Jacob and "Esau's" mutual struggle and the probability that Jacob or "Esau" was actually the source of the vision. Each of these visions' words could be taken quite differently or at the very least now has a very different or more clear perspective than we likely understood the first time.

#393. Posted by: LostedIt at May 18, 2009 1:32 PM

@392 -

Nothing really new here

1. Man in white is Jacob, Black is Esau from the bible. -- Yup. Confirmed in the incident

2.Esau is the 'smoke monster'. Esau was living in the hut; -- Yup - confirmed in the Incident

3. Season 6 will show Esau touching all the other people on the island that he needs there to throw the timline in his favor! -- yup. Even I stated this earlier in this and other blogs. He Cheated to prove Jacob wrong. But Rose and bernard were not infected by him and they get it right. Sybolic of the eventual friedship between Black and white as written in the bible.

Just food for thought.

3. The numbers equal the date and time that the 'energy' needs to be sent back to in time -- yup seen this one a few times.

#394. Posted by: steve at May 18, 2009 1:42 PM

Excellent posts. Quick thoughts.

Juliette's not dead. If she's a goner, so is everyone else on the island. And that would make for a very short season 6.

Ben's daughter warning him to obey Locke was probably man#2.

Jacob and man#2 are playing the Longest Con yet on the show.

Man#2 needed Richard to assist the real Locke in the jungle and plant the seed that he would have to die to convince the others to come back.

Wow, just wow.

#395. Posted by: Smoke Critter at May 18, 2009 1:42 PM

347. Posted by: Gumbo
"I think that once Esau got Locke, his loophole objective had been reached. I think this is where he stopped using the pawns.
Jacob appears to have known what that loophole was and continues to use the pawns.....Hurley and Jin and Sun have not yet impacted events, but I believe that they will be more integral to season 6. Hate to go all Hallmark, but I think in Jin and Sun's case, their love will bridge the gap of time. Jacob did tell them not to take it for granted, after all. Hurley may be even more important. He can interact/converse with the dead spirits, even more directly than Miles."

Thinking about your ideas and I like them. Maybe Locke2's plan was just to get them to come back to the island on the Ajira plane. Maybe Jacob foomed his pawns off the plane to use them to change something in the past that would screw up Locke2's plan. Even if WHH makes sense, Desmnond was able to delay Charlie's inevitable death. Jacob may be counting on the "goodneess" in the 1977 06's to work with the good 06er's in 2008 to give Jacob time before the inevitable happens. We just don't know enough, as usual. But thinking of them as Jacob's pawns is a pretty neat idea. And I like Hallmark.

44444444444444444444444444444444
361. Posted by: Constant Confusion
Several folks have said that Hurley was the only 06 post crash contact with Jacob, but Sayid saw Jacob after returning and reuniting/marrying Nadia. Am I missing something?

I think you are right. Hurley and Sayid are touched after the 06 leave the island. And someone has put a useful touching time line up here.

88888888888888888888888888888888888
364. Posted by: shikotee

Joseph, will be played by Donny Osmond. Costume rumours are that he will wear Colin Baker's 6th Doctor outfit from "Doctor Who".

Woohoo!! And a blonde curly wig!

1515151515151515151515151515
370. Posted by: davidrh
Your work is great! I had not been to your page and thoroughly enjoyed it!

I don't know if you or anyone plays the sims2 game, but I have created The Swan and the Lost Beach for the the sims. You can only see them if you download them into the game though. It was lots of fun. Nowhere near your talent.

2323232323232323232323232323
371. Posted by: Mizzed
for all of the discussion the characters had about WHH, and for all the effort that each made to alter the future, hasn't everything happened just as it always needed to?

It looks that way but we don't really know that.
They did have Faraday's book to help them make sure it all worked as planned (by Locke2? by Jacob?) And Eloise is not sure what happens next. So....

I accept whh as logical to avoid paradox's, but am still hoping somebody can throw a spanner into the works and....who knows? Maybe the end of the Tapestry is not finished yet. The gods are still at work messing with humans. We haven't seen the end of the cloth wound around the loom. There is still time for progress before it "only ends once"

#396. Posted by: berkyo at May 18, 2009 2:06 PM

WOW! Great,great episodes. heres what i think. when lost ended with a white background and "LOST" on the screen, it gave me the impression that it was the end of something(the story) as it was sooo different and climactic. i dont know why everyone is assuming that juliet is dead. if shes dead, theyre all dead. in one of the last episodes, when sun brought richard the picture of th o6 in dharmaville to try to see if he knows where they are, he says that he watched them all die. this consolidates my belief that season 6 will not be progressing further with the story so much, but rather tying up all the loose ends (like new locke and jacobs end).so i think that jack, kate etc. plans of blowing up th H bomb worked and they restart everything from '77 and i think that season 5 was more the end of the "lost" story than season 6 will be.

#397. Posted by: mini SLDR at May 18, 2009 2:15 PM

ABC-Lost posted a new 'official' podcast today - an interview post-Incident with Michael 'Benry' Emerson.

Emerson seems to believe (based on his script) that the bomb actually went off - he talked about wondeing how you possibly portray that on film.

If he's correct, there go the FOOM theories.

Then we've got to wonder - did they change WHH, and what will the changes be, and what will season 6 be about?
________________________

P.S. Out of town all weekend due to a death in the family (beloved aunt) and just got back in time to view the Survivor finale, but too tired to write last night - hope to get the review out tonight, but there's a preview up where you can post any reaction if desired. Reviews up tonight, I hope.

#398. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 18, 2009 2:28 PM

Has anyone noted previously that, according the the Webster on line dictionary, Ajira is Hindi for Island?

#399. Posted by: August Paul at May 18, 2009 3:00 PM

I didn't go back to make certain, but it sure looked to me like Kate was wearing a very large, very METALLIC, belt buckle. By all rights she should have been one of the first objects sucked into the vortex.

#400. Posted by: mushlyann at May 18, 2009 3:21 PM

Coupla quick things...

I read on another (woefully inadequate) site that when Hurley was getting out of jail and he got his belongings back (a la John Belushi/Frank Oz in the Blues Brothers) that his stuff was the same stuff that Jacob gave to Kate (money), Sawyer (pen), and Jack (food).

And one more Wacky Theory of the Week (WTotW)...

I'm thinking that the EM Incident (implosion) and the H-bomb (explosion) may have "cancelled" each other out, resetting the clock and shattering the snow globe glass.

Or maybe it'll just turn out to be like the Maxwell Smart Nude Bomb...

#401. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 18, 2009 4:15 PM

first time post.

what puzzles me is, if the ajirans knew that lockes body was in the box why didnt they do anything when they saw the fake locke parading around the crash site. why did they jus let him to do his thing.

the way they handle the box earlier, its as if they came to the island precisely to show the others lockes dead body but yet, they had no hand in bringin the body to island. they look as if they know wat theyr doing but yet they said to richard at the end that they just ‘found him’ in the cargo hold. if they just stumbled upon him then it leads to the conclusion that they came to the island with no fixed mission. they then found lockes dead body and that became the mission??

again the question, if they knew the living locke was phony, why didnt they do anything. all this is just wierd to me.

and again if jacob did know that
aj would find a loophole sooner or later and kill him ( the fact that he just accepted his death willingly), it begs the question why did the ajirans have to ‘warn’ him????

help me out plz guys. thx

#402. Posted by: v3l at May 18, 2009 5:22 PM

@ 401. Posted by: ransomjackson
I'm thinking that the EM Incident (implosion) and the H-bomb (explosion) may have "cancelled" each other out, resetting the clock and shattering the snow globe glass.
_____________________________________

Check out my post on this very topic in the Variable thread. I don;t think your wacky at all.

#403. Posted by: steve at May 18, 2009 5:34 PM

I agree with Vacc and others who said that we shouldn't be calling Man #2 Easu.

It's to early to assume such things... and even if it's not an assumption, we'll get this thought in our head and if/when we find out man #2 is not Easu, it will confuse us and be harder to replace that thought with the truth.

We missed you meg, bcre8ve, and vacc! Well meg and vacc occasionally post, but still. So what ever happened to the bcre8ve portrait?

#404. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 18, 2009 6:06 PM

Is everyone forgetting that Ilana told Sayid he was under arrest for killing one of Widmore's men. There must be more to that story or was it just a way to get him on that plane. Maybe she's part of Man#2's plan also. We are just assuming she's looking for Jacob. Maybe not. What if Lapidus is a candidate for ole smokey to infiltrate the O6 group. They would certainly trust him.

#405. Posted by: pebspostal at May 18, 2009 6:59 PM

UGH! My fellow Losties at work think i'm nutz cause i won't let her go but, WHAT ABOUT ANNIE!!!! "Just a thought" Final min.of final season. We see old Ben @ wife Annie telling the grand kids this outlandish bedtyme story.

→ 378. Posted by: T-Spoon at May 17, 2009 1:14 PM

I know how that feels...people think I'm nutz because I can't let go of "Why did Widmore sink the fake flight 815, 4000 miles in the opposite direction it was supposed to be going? Not just "off course"...OK...4000 miles in the freaking opposite direction! And why isn't anyone the least bit concerned about that HUGE discrepancy?

Absolutely drives me crazy!

#406. Posted by: undaunted at May 18, 2009 7:04 PM

"Esau" or not?

Another site refers to this character as the Man in Black (MIB). Enigmatic enough and easier to type.

#407. Posted by: lovelost at May 18, 2009 7:21 PM

To further all the numerous Stephen King connections...in The Talisman (a book King wrote with Peter Taub and later they co-wrote a sequel called Black House), the main character is a boy named...get this...

Jack Sawyer

#408. Posted by: Gumbo at May 18, 2009 7:25 PM

Really, I don't think it matters what you call Man #2.

Then again, we called Tom (aka Mr. Friendly) "Zeke" on this web site for at least a season or so.

#409. Posted by: Mizzed at May 18, 2009 8:30 PM

with regard to what we call Man #2:
I like "Esau". So I will continue referring to Man #2 as Esau unless I am referring to Esau when he is in the form of Locke in which case I will refer to him as DeadLocke.

or I might just start calling him Groucho.

#410. Posted by: undaunted at May 18, 2009 8:53 PM

Whoever is making the "New" Locke go ...is that the same person inside Christian Shepherd and all the other dead people? Remember Jack's Dad returned to the Island via coffin... Claire is still alive too, where is she? Christian was the person giving Locke instructions... Move the Island... I told you to move it not Ben...Jack's Dad's shoes that Locke wore, were never really his, Christian's he never wore them...

It was too easy.... JACOB is not dead or dead yet, he would not just let that happen unless he wanted it to...especially if he was enlisting help, He was the one who made sure everyone returned, including Locke.
what was the Rule? The island will not allow you to kill yourself off-island..can someone kill you? Is that why Ben and Charles cannot kill each other?

Jacob, Widmore and Eloise did their best to get everyone to return...
Richard would not have let Locke and Ben into Jacob's lair to kill him

THEY are coming...are all the people who supposedly died on the island..... Definitely not just the people on the Beach and where do they get their clothing? Richard has worn the same shirt for years

The One who moves the island can never return... How/Why did both Ben and Locke return?

the statue TAWERET, Apep's wife was the protector of pregnant woman so why did all the pregnant women die....because someone destroyed the statue Yes maybe it is really Sobek... The RADIATION is the cause of the pregnant women's deaths

Didn't Juliet's Dad look a lot like Jacob? Juliet is an other, she speaks Latin too, she is not dead, (Locke survived his fall down the well)she didn't activate the bomb.... it finally goes off when the button wasn't pushed ...Faraday said Desmond forgot to push the button and the flight 815 crashed, he never forgot
Why isn't Faraday's last name Hawkings or Widmore? When and why did Eloise leave the island?

Richard said to Sun "I saw them all die" Was it at the incident or when Ben wiped out the Dharma's... They knew Ben will grow up to kill the Dharma's so hopefully they wouldn't stick around for that, where is young Ben during all the commotion?

it was Jacob's cabin,not Man#2's Ilana looked for him there first

If Dead is Dead, how does Libby say Hello?

Where is Walt? Did Michael die on the freighter?
What happened to the crew of the Black Rock? their bones must be somewhere...What did Widmore do with the painting he bought at the auction?
Who is Penny's Mother?

Ben didn't go to the temple to be Judged
Alex wasn't really his daughter...
Who was Henry Gale? the balloonest...Why did Danielle torture Sayid "Where is Alex" and just hand Ben over to the Losties? Sayid isn't dead either, he must meet up with Danielle in a flashback

Do you think there is coconut in an Apollo Bar?

#411. Posted by: Elizabeth at May 19, 2009 12:50 AM

Jacob LIVES in the Statue
He does not LIE in the Shadow of the Statue
Ben Lies everywhere....

where does Man #2 live?

Why doesn't anyone ever get a tan or a sunburn?

#412. Posted by: Elizabeth at May 19, 2009 1:02 AM

@371. Posted by: Mizzed
@390. Posted by: vacc
@404. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
@407. Posted by: lovelost
@410. Posted by: undaunted

re: Locke2 = Man #2 = MIB = Devil = Esau = Nemesis

This name reference may seem minute, but it certainly affects the framing of the person at hand.

Yes - Before we knew Tom by his name, he was referred to as "Mr. Friendly" and also "Zeek". "Mr. Friendly" worked well, because it was a neutral reference that we all understood. After all - he was darn friendly! "Zeek" was OK, because this was how Sawyer referred to him (if I'm not mistaken). If someone called him "the apostle Peter" (and also had a theory that he represented the apostle Peter), I would not be cool with that name.

"Esau" was not mentioned in the actual episode, and my not wanting to use this name as a marker has nothing to do with whether I actually believe he is this person, or even if the writers were thinking about this person. It's simply misleading to call him this name with such certainty, with the consequences being that casual readers could blindly accept this link as fact, which it is not. It creates a minor bias, which could potentially act as a psuedo-block towards other ideas.

Whatever his name is, one thing for certain is that he is evil! Notwithstanding the things he may have done within the show, look how he divides us all, and puts us all against each other because of his lack of name! Work of the devil, I tells ya!


@400. Posted by: mushlyann
re: Kate and the metal belt

I must admit, the magnetic forces were highly erratic and inconsistent. Wish TPTB would have put more thought into this. Strong enough to pull an accelerating jeep back, but not strong enough to.....

While watching, did anyone else get the feeling that Juliet was gonna pull a Darth Maul death scene? I totally was thinking the chains would rip her body in half!

#413. Posted by: shikotee at May 19, 2009 1:11 AM

@407. Posted by: lovelost
re: Man in Black (MIB)

Forgot to say....

You're gonna refer to him as Johnny Cash?
He did kick Jacob into a burning ring of fire!!!!

#414. Posted by: shikotee at May 19, 2009 1:20 AM

Or better yet, perhaps they are not brothers. Perhaps Jacob is his father, and named him "Sue". Would certainly explain the anger issues, and why he wouldn't name drop!!!

#415. Posted by: shikotee at May 19, 2009 1:23 AM

TV Guide said that the statue is Taweret, the goddess of childbirth. It also said that whom Taweret mates with, and when, is of great relevance.

Anyone have any idea who Taweret mates with and when?

#416. Posted by: ID_Monster at May 19, 2009 7:08 AM

Anyone have any idea who Taweret mates with and when? 416. Posted by: ID_Monster


A. Glenda Appleworth - backseat of a 1953 Ford coupe - February 19, 1956 - Memeville, Iowa.

Naaaaaaaah. I was just being morning-silly. BTW: thanks berkyo (396) Glad you enjoyed it.

#417. Posted by: davidrh at May 19, 2009 8:08 AM

I'm wondering if mia young Ben will walk out from behind a pillar in the statue's basement,to be seen by mature Ben, shaking mature Ben to his core when he realizes that Jacob didn't ignore him, he saved his life.

what is the loop hole? Is it skirting the same rule that Ben bemoaned was broken when his Alex was murdered?

Is it why "Richard" gave Locke Sawyer's file when Locke was told to kill TMFT. Was that a manipulation to ensure that Locke would not murder TMFT himself?

What do the people we have seem invoke "the rule" have in common? Ben said Alex's murder was against the rules. Ben & Widmore cannot kill each other because of "the rule". Esau cannot kill Jacob without a loop hole.

Is it that specific people cannot be the reason other specific people are murdered?

Is it that there is a bloodline this rule is designed to protect? That there are people sworn to protect that bloodline?

Could the loophole be that someone can come along who is not sworn to protect it and if he has his own reason to kill the target, he can?

I feel like all the pieces are there but I can't figure out how they fit together.

#418. Posted by: undaunted at May 19, 2009 8:23 AM

I apologize to whoever proposed the theory that Jacob-in-the-Ashes becomes Smokey because I'm too lazy to look up through over 4oo posts.

I think it's a great idea...Jacob gets bbq-ed, and in a white hot flash of nuclear fooming gets transmogrified into a sentient particle cloud.

Now I'm no mortician (even though I've seen one on TV and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express), but I believe that it takes a slightly higher heat than that in the average backyard Weber to turn a person (if that's what Jacob is) into a piles of ashes (if that's what Smokey is).

But hey, that's what sci-fi is for...suspension of disbelief.

#419. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 19, 2009 11:14 AM

I had a thought. Just like Man#2 took over Locke's body, maybe Jacob has taken over Richard Alpert's body. Maybe that's why Richard doesn't age and his name "Richardus" means leader (I think that's what someone said it meant).

That's my mamma!

#420. Posted by: steve 2112 at May 19, 2009 2:04 PM

There's no way that Jacob becomes smokey because the event of him dying happened in 2007/2008. Smokey already reared his head earlier on Ben and John's trek. What is plausible is that Juliette has something odd happen to her. That I can believe.

#421. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 19, 2009 2:56 PM

@412
It could be that Jacob was buried in the shadow of the statue once John Killed him.

I want to know what the brother had to go through when John mentioned to Jacob that he went through a lot to get there.

#422. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 19, 2009 2:59 PM

Have only read through to 275, but a couple of things I was tinking of,
sorry if these have been mentioned ::

Weren't we told we had seen Jacob in a non speaking role in the pilot?(or was it just the first season?) Has anyone watched the pilot over again to see if our newly outed Jacob is lurking somewhere in plain sight?

Also in the opening scene of The Incident, IMO it was a little creepy that when Jacob asks "Esau" if he would like to eat, he responds that he has already eaten. Eaten what? If he is Smokey, what would that be?

#423. Posted by: thelostwaltz at May 19, 2009 3:07 PM

Actually I was thinking about those things, not tinking.
:)

#424. Posted by: thelostwaltz at May 19, 2009 3:09 PM

Richard asks Jack if Locke is really special. Richard says that he’s visited Locke off island 3 times and he doesn’t see what the big whoop is. Ok, it’s because Locke is NOT special. He’s only there b/c Esau & Jacob manipulated him into being there. He’s not the chosen leader at all. But then again, why would Jacob bring Locke back to life after falling out of a window if he’s not special? Remember when Abadon told Locke that it was a miracle that he survived that fall. Now it’s apparent that abadon knew that someone (i.e. Jacob) had to intervene for Locke to have survived that fall. It’s called “what lies in the ‘foreshadowing’ of the statue” :P

#425. Posted by: Skipper at May 19, 2009 4:06 PM

Has that fire in Jacob’s lair been constantly burning since the beginning of time? Is it the Olympic flame? Seriously, do you think it means anything? Jinns are made of fire…any thoughts, Vacc?

#426. Posted by: Skipper at May 19, 2009 4:08 PM

Did Widmore and Jacob work together to kill Nadia? Jacob distracts sayid, then the driver is one of Widmore’s guys (according to Ben and his photograph, that is).

#427. Posted by: Skipper at May 19, 2009 4:09 PM

Two words = Bernard’s wig
Two more words = Bernard’s beard

#428. Posted by: Skipper at May 19, 2009 4:09 PM

In Season 1 Episode 11 'hearts and minds' (or 1. 12. 'special'????)

Jack asks Charley if he trust Locke

Charley responds - there is no one I trust more, he saved my life. (or something like that)

I say that... well I dont remember what my point was... sorry long day..

#429. Posted by: V at May 19, 2009 4:24 PM

With all the talk about whose eye it is: I rewatched and paused and, to reiterate what's already been said, it's definitely not a blue eye (Juliette), and not totally brown, either. It looks hazel....brownish with green flecks.

But the neat thing was how the ABC logo was superimposed over the pupil, and when the eye faded away, it was just the ABC in the circle. My ancient VCR actually allowed me to pause and then forward, frame by frame, to see this.

-162 welh noted: "Together, the eyes represent the whole of the universe".

It's probably no coincidence that TPTB have used the eye to "open" an episode. Will we ever see just the other eye? Or both open together? And what happened to the glass eye the Losties found way back when?

#430. Posted by: lovelost at May 19, 2009 7:40 PM

Matthew Fox was on Jimmy Kimmel Live. Kimmel asked if he knew how the series ended and if we, the audience, would be satisfied. Fox said he knows "the final images" and that we "will be satisfied in the coolest of ways".

I did not detect any weird breathing when he said this.

#431. Posted by: lovelost at May 19, 2009 7:47 PM

I am not sure if anyone reads the post #400++, I have certainly not read all (but quite a few).

I believe the key to understand Jacob and Man#2 is to imagine they are 4 dimensional characters. They can travel through space and time, that's what they have that make them special, apart from anyone else.

Somehow the Island is the gateway from the 4-dimensional reality and ours. As a connecting bridge it also has all sort of weird time and space discontinuities. Just remember it disappeared and started to skip through time.

For me, Jacob wants to teach we poor 3D people something, maybe how to evolve and become them. Man#2 thinks not only it is a waist of time but also rather dangerous. And yes, maybe they are brothers ... or at least cousins.

#432. Posted by: Riccardo at May 19, 2009 8:30 PM

Why don't we just call Man #2 Dr. Evil?!

#433. Posted by: Sly at May 19, 2009 9:25 PM

@433: Sly - Maybe he wants ONE... MILLION... DOLLARS!!!!!!! (pinky on corner of his mouth)

A lot of thoughts flying around this week. Don't know where this will all land, but we've certainly got enough time to research and try to find some consensus. Agree that "Esau" is a placeholder name. Likely not really the actual character name. I've looked everywhere and there seems to be no reference to the character's real name, and obviously for good reason (to make us all crazy). Just for ha ha's, what was the "official" name given in the credits for the show. Anyone?

#434. Posted by: LostedIt at May 19, 2009 10:50 PM

@434 LostedIt asked:

>Just for ha ha's, what was the "official" name given in the credits for the show. [for "Esau"] Anyone?

In the opening, just the actor's name "Titus welliver".

Nothing in the closing credits.

I read that on IMDB he's listed as "Man #2".

o~~~~~~

BTW, two (of four planned) final Survivor posts are up.

#435. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 19, 2009 11:19 PM

Vincent being Smokey went down the drain... =[

#436. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 19, 2009 11:51 PM

I’d like to weigh in on the naming of Man #2. Due to my awesome Catholic-school typin’ skillz (shout-out to Sister Janelle!), I have no problem hitting shift and “#” simultaneously. And I like the ambiguity of the “Man #2” monikor – is he the bad guy? I’m definitely not convinced that Jacob is our good guy. While Jacob may be in favor of “progress,” some of his methods have been questionable.

Also, I would agree with Scooby-Dude/185: “I like the Jacob/Man #2 as brothers theory, but Man #2 says "One of these days, sooner or later, I'm going to find a loophole, my friend," so that's a small tidbit in favor of them not being bros.”

To be perfectly literal, when speaking directly to my brother, I would not refer to him as “my friend.” That is, if I had a brother, which I do not. Moving on... :)

“Nemesis” makes me think of Hiro and Heroes (which stunk so bad this year, I’d prefer not to think further on it).

And dude is too dressed down to be “MIB” (Will Smith-style).

Which leaves me with Shikotee 414/415:
“You're gonna refer to him as Johnny Cash?
He did kick Jacob into a burning ring of fire!!!!”
“Or better yet, perhaps they are not brothers. Perhaps Jacob is his father, and named him "Sue".”

Being a huge fan, this made me laugh until I cried. I will now always think of Man #2 as “Sue.”

***************************************

Speaking of casual wear, during my second viewing I was completely distracted by the button on the back-pocket of Jacob’s pants in the statue scenes. Where exactly is the mens’ store located on this island? And does Alpert pay extra for custom tailoring?

And how is Jacob traveling off-island? Being a man of mystery, he can’t exactly hop on the sub. And Jacob and Richard were off-island before the Others took control of the sub. Perhaps one of the perks of being a demi-god (and his anti-aging minion) is free teleportation? (no FDW required!)

#437. Posted by: Clementine at May 20, 2009 1:25 AM

@437. Posted by: Clementine
And how is Jacob traveling off-island? Being a man of mystery, he can’t exactly hop on the sub.

________________________________

I think the Cabin may be another portal of travel. And who says that the being that has been touching our losties is Jacob. It seems that these guys can take on any image they please. If Jacob has not been in the cabin for some time as Ilana says, and someone else has been using it...

Maybe this is why she has the cabin burned.

#438. Posted by: Steve at May 20, 2009 2:49 AM

Hi all. I was away for some weeks and only just had a chance to catch up on the final stretch of episodes. So I had a long Lost night with "The Story of the Oceanic 6", "The Variable", "Follow the Leader" and "The Incident". Great episodes and a lot of food for discussions.

I doubt I ever get round to reading all the posts on these episodes or even the posts for the final episode, but I did want to thank Mac for the great reviews this year and all you bloggers for the interesting comments and discussions.

#439. Posted by: Plain Simple at May 20, 2009 4:13 AM

Do we know what the statue is and when it was destroyed???

i know some think it is Tawaret and that it was seen as a deity of protection in pregnancy and Pregnant women wore amulets with her name or likeness to protect their pregnancies.

So... Do we know when the statue was destroyed... I am guessing it may have been destroyed when 77s detonated the bomb.

Being that Once destroyed; pregnant woman who conceived on the island and tried to give birth did not succeed.

We know that a baby was born in 77 - Miles. We also know that when that before the losties crashed the others were not successful with birth....

So does anyone know when it was destroyed.

#440. Posted by: V at May 20, 2009 8:12 AM

re Jacob getting off the island:

Way back when, one of the others asked Michael if Walt ever appeared where he shouldn't be. Maybe that applies to Jacob as well. They have some form of cloning themselves.

I was also wondering if Locke could be a clone. He does appear to be surprised at some comments made to him. It's like he's catching up on things.

Headed for work. Hope everyone enjoys their day.

#441. Posted by: pebspostal at May 20, 2009 8:33 AM

→ 440: V: "i know some think it is Tawaret and that it was seen as a deity of protection in pregnancy"

With the last episode where we actually saw the front of the statue, it actually appears to be the crocodile god, Sobek, not the pregnant hippo god, Tawaret.

Given the white/black theme of opposing forces, it wouldn't shock me if we find out next season there were originally two statues, one for each "presence".

Wiki's description of Sobek refers to his tendency to correct wrongs and to nudge people along their path, plus he later became seen as an avatar of the Sun god- all of these things would suggest a link to Jacob.

I'm waiting for someone on the internet to complete a brilliant analysis of how the biblical story of Jacob, the Egyptian myths of Anubis and Sobek, and the stories of the Greek hero Odysseus all connect thematically into the Lost storyline, since all of those elements were intertwined on Jacob and his tapestry.

Unless, of course, TPTB are just mashing together random links together in sort of a cultural reference sudoku game with their audience.

#442. Posted by: Mizzed at May 20, 2009 9:53 AM

@437/Clementine: "I like the ambiguity of the “Man #2” monikor – is he the bad guy?"

I concur ... given how many loops Lost has thrown us for in the past, it baffles me how quickly and eagerly many fans seem to be embracing the "truthes" that man #2 is "Esau" (i.e. Jacob's literal brother), and that he is evil (and that hence Jacob is good).

I will be completely shocked if both of these are true. In fact, I'll be rather surprised if either ends up being true. Really.

@442/Mizzed: "Unless, of course, TPTB are just mashing together random links together in sort of a cultural reference sudoku game with their audience."

And this is my point ... we've seen evidence of this over and over from the writers. There are just SO many references of various forms in Lost, that no single one could possibly ever truly "fit" the plot exactly. It's a chimera of partially-fitting and overlapping stories taken from literature, art, science, religion, and mythology (others?), from all over the world and all of recorded history.

So "the biblical story of Jacob, the Egyptian myths of Anubis and Sobek, and the stories of the Greek hero Odysseus" provide useful analogies ... but only partially, just as we've seen with countless other "this sounds rather like the story of ..." examples throughout the current and previous seasons.

Sometimes it's just a quick visual reference (e.g., first thing I thought of when I saw the cover of "Everything That Rises Must Converge" [Jacob's reading material while waiting for Locke to fall out the window] was "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner", yadda yadda yadda), sometimes broader analogy (e.g., just last week I mentioned how I thought Ben/Locke could also be correlated to Jacob/Esau, even though they are clearly not brothers), sometimes explicit reference (e.g., John Locke, Jeremy Bentham, Faraday, Hume, Richard Alpert, etc.), or cultural references (e.g., the Dharma bagua symbols, the FDW as Dharmacakra, the various Egyptian hieroglyphic references, etc.) ... TPTB have thrown all these "near misses" at us, but no single one of them encapsulates the underlying Lost story, which remains a moving target, and as elusive as ever.

So as I said above ... I'm thinking all of those out there so steadfast in belief that Man #2 is inherently evil "Esau" are going to end up dead wrong. The writers have NEVER made it that "easy" for us in the past ... what makes people think they've decided to start now?

Besides, "Man #2" has a certain Prisoner #2/#6 quality about it that I enjoy, so I will stick with Man #2. At least until we get a name ... IF we ever get a name.

#443. Posted by: ealgumby at May 20, 2009 11:04 AM

Let's put my 2 cents in. If they resemble somebody else's 2 cents I apologize, for I have not had the time to read through all 400something posts.

Remember earlier in the season I was advocating the theory that off-Island Ben (after Locke's death) was actually Locke? When Ben and Locke returned to the Island and it wasn't addressed I sort of gave up on this theory, but with the unLocking of the Statuaries big blinking box my theory got reinvigorated. Not only does this establish body swapping/controlling/copying as a existing phenomenon in the Lostiverse, but it also gives a (sort of logical) way to explain what happened with Christian, Locke, and Ben.

I got this Locke=Ben vibe earlier this season when on-Island Locke was talking to Christian in the FDW cave after falling down the well. There was something in the wording of Christian that reminded me very strongly of off-Island (2007) Ben and I thought that this was because I-have-no-mind-of-my-own Locke was just copying Christians words and somehow made his way from his own body into Bens. Perhaps controlling it, perhaps just hitching a ride and causing the occasional side effect (like saying things that Ben wouldn't say, like genuinely feeling hurt when the O6 don't recognize his goodwill), who knows. In the light of recent events though I don't think this was exactly what happened. It was not Locke hiding away in Ben, it was man #2, who might be the same as Christian, or at the very least might be responsible for having a dead man walking around the Island. That's why Ben sounded like Christian, he had the same man #2 essence traveling around in his body. So how would this work?

Man #2, for reasons unknown yet, needs Locke to be able to kill (or at least attack) Jacob. That why he has Christian tell Locke (or tells Locke himself in the form of Christian) to turn the FDW. Locke messes up and lets Ben do it, but in the end comes back to do it himself. Christian/Man #2 is happy.

For some reason Man #2 needs Locke to come back to the Island as a corpse. I'm not sure why, but this seems to be the case. Perhaps he can only take over people who died off-Island, like Christian. Only, off-Island his control is weak, barely noticeable. On-Island he is in charge. How to get this done? First (or last?) of all his future self in Locke shape tells Richard to tell Locke he has to die. Second, he refers Locke to Mrs. Hawking who for some reasons harbors weird recreate-the-crash fetishes. Mrs. Hawking is also the key to Man #2's off-Island body jumping as we shall see later.

Off-Island Locke (carrying in him some tasty bit of Man #2 essence) goes through the motions of collecting the O6. He seems to fail, until he reveals the vital bit of information that Man #2 provided him: "Jack, I've been talking to your dead dad recently". That did the trick. Part 1 of Man #2's plan is set in motion, the O6 are working their way back to the Island. Because he has sent Locke on the way to Mrs Hawking he knows that Jack will be convinced to carry Locke's body back with him. Something Man #2 apparently wants/needs. But how to get back on the flight himself?

Come in Ben, who might be a tricky conniving manipulator, but who didn't know the Big Secrets either. As was restated in this episode he was kept out of the loop even when he was the "Leader". He truly didn't know Locke would be 'resurrected', so why did he kill him? Well, he didn't. Not at first anyway. He saved him from suicide, didn't he. Weren't we all very puzzled when he did this and then proceeded to kill him? Why o why? Because Man #2 killed Locke, that's why. Locke's role as a living person was served, he got the O6 back on their way to the Island. The next for Locke would be to find his way to Mrs Hawking. And just when he utters this plan to Ben, Ben kills him. Coincidence? Or was this the 'kill-switch'? Mentioning Mrs Hawking was the sign for the slumbering Man #2 to jump body once again, into Ben, and then convince Ben's mind that it would be a good idea to kill Locke? Voila, one dead body.

The rest is history as they say. Man #2 travels along in Ben until the Ajira crash which somehow gives him the opportunity to take Locke shape and go on a hunt for Jacob.

One small bit that might still be puzzling. Sun and Frank meet Christian on the Island while Locke is also walking around. Does this mean that Man #2 can split his essence over Locke and Christian, or that Christian is separate from Man #2, not 'just' a body reanimated by Man #2's essence? Is Christian Smokey? Is Man #2 Smokey? Questions questions questions... but I love to hear your thoughts about part of the answers that my theory tries to provide.

By the way, the conflict between Jacob and Man #2 seems driven by Lost's eternal free will vs destiny battle in a rather curious way. Jacob seems superficially on the side of destiny, controlling the lives of several groups of Losties and Others through the ages in detail in order to get his will done. But he does so because he believes that the people can break out of the mold of destroyers. Man #2 on the other hand seems to advocate to leave the people alone (see for example the opening scene of the episode, but also neo-Locke's speech to Ben about Jacob controlling him his whole life), but he seems to do so from the conviction that it is pointless to steer the people, because they are doomed to repeat the destructive path time and time again. In this light it might be that Jacob wanted to be killed, not because he gets resurrected or anything like that, but because he sees that his (relatively) short time strategy of controlling people has paid off and it's time to take a step back and let his long time strategy unfold in which the Losties take lives in their own hands and break the chain of destructing. They are coming indeed.

#444. Posted by: Plain Simple at May 20, 2009 11:55 AM

One more thing: I'm still quite charmed by the theory that Claire's and Charlie's warning's to Kate and Jack not to bring "him" back and "raise" him, actually referred to Locke, not Aaron. This still could make sense if the Island didn't want Man #2 to kill Jacob (although I just made a case that Jacob himself might have wanted this to happen).

#445. Posted by: Plain Simple at May 20, 2009 12:10 PM

"Off-Island Locke (carrying in him some tasty bit of Man #2 essence)"
ummm--ewwww!


Shouldn't they recast Man #2 as Robert Wagner or Rob Lowe and have him wear an eye patch?
(Hey maybe Mikhail "Patchy" was really Man #2!)

#446. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 20, 2009 1:16 PM

My composite translation/interpretation of Jacob's Tapestry (from various sources); from top to bottom:

Greek text: "May the gods grant you all your heart (soul) desires."

Next: the Eye of Ra with 17 sun rays (with hands) to 17 Egyptians flanked by two thrones. The sun rays with hands is a symbol used by the Cult of Aten, thought to be the first "single deity" religious belief. The two thrones may represent the split kingdoms, Upper and Lower Egypt.

Next: 8 dancers giving offerings to the heavens.

Next: Greek text "May the gods grant you happiness."

Next: 5 people toiling in the fields. The representation looks like a depiction of the shabtis, a deceased pharoah's servants in the afterlife who toil in the eternal fields of the gods.

Next: 3 Egyptian ships crossing the waters. The tapestry found in Jacob's cabin would appear to be from the lower right corner, towards where the ships are sailing. A soul crossing the river is symbolic of the journey to the Maat for final judgment.

Bottom: Greek text "Only the dead have seen the end of war."


#447. Posted by: welh at May 20, 2009 1:46 PM

@ 445. Posted by: Plain Simple

One more thing: I'm still quite charmed by the theory that Claire's and Charlie's warning's to Kate and Jack not to bring "him" back and "raise" him, actually referred to Locke, not Aaron. This still could make sense if the Island didn't want Man #2 to kill Jacob (although I just made a case that Jacob himself might have wanted this to happen).
_____________________________

What if she was talking about Hurley and the magic guitar of the gods?

#448. Posted by: steve at May 20, 2009 2:41 PM

@443: ealgumby, @445: Plain Simple - I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with both of you.

#449. Posted by: LostedIt at May 20, 2009 3:04 PM

AISI, there are two possible scenarios…

Scenario 1 - The h-bomb explosion & simultaneous release of EM causes the Incident. This incident starts the time loop bringing Desmond to the island and eventually winning Penny's heart, 815 to crash, the Lostaways to foom back and forth through time, and Ben to get all jiggy with it on the island. Over and over and over again ad infinitum.

Scenario B - The h-bomb explosion & simultaneous release of EM causes the Anti-Incident. This Anti-Incident closes the time loop enabling Desmond to complete his boat race around the world (or die in the effort?) and eventually winning Penny's heart, 815 to complete its flight and land safely in L.A. returning all the Lostaways to their incredibly pathetic lives, and Ben to be just another disgruntled bespectacled Pillsbury Doughboy of a middle-aged cubicle jockey with Napoleonic delusions of grandeur.

Either way Des gets the girl. And it seems pretty obvious to me how Ben would like events to unfold.

What I can't figure out is why the Lostaways would want their lives back. None of them have anything to look forward to. So maybe it's their willingness to sacrifice themsleves (see SK's The Stand) that enables Jacob to realize his lofty goal for an enlightened humanity.

#450. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 20, 2009 3:18 PM

Ho hum...Wednesday and no Lost. Sniff, sniff. I'm gonna have to use my neckerchief to dab my eyes all night long. No plan old tissue can handle the job.

#451. Posted by: lost2theworld at May 20, 2009 4:05 PM

TGI.....w?... Shoot.

Nothin.

Anyone got the Battlestar Galactica complete series collection on DVD? I never got the chance to watch it after the first season and now seems like as good a time as any to watch it from beginning to end. It's gonna be a looooooooong 8 months.

#452. Posted by: LostedIt at May 20, 2009 4:36 PM

@444: Plain Simple - One thing I think seems to be a very important factor in everything about Lost is the concept of free will. It has been emphasized many times throughout the seasons, no more so than in S5 and especially in the finale. The factors of time self-correcting would seem to counter any variable that free will introduces into the equation throughout S5, but one would infer that we're being led down a new path in the finale, one where we are to believe now that free will is going to finally outweigh the course-correcting abilities of the island and/or those in control of the island and set S6 on a path out of whatever loop the island and its long-term inhabitants have been on.

Now granted, I think the loop isn't really a time loop, because even Jacob and "Esau" are progressing through time like everyone else from what I can tell. The loop is going to be something more intangible or more broad than that. What, I don't know, but there's some repeating theme that it would seem is destined to be finally broken in S6. That, is seems to me, will start with the season premier and end with the final fade-out of the series. Everything else will turn out to be just sub-themes to that which we have been given just a glimpse of and will be fleshed out in S6.

#453. Posted by: LostedIt at May 20, 2009 4:47 PM

I was spending a little time running back thru all the summer sessions on this blog over the past several years. The one notable difference I see, as the years have rushed by, is that we’ve all become SO DAMN SERIOUS about this thing!

We used to joke and make fun of situations in the LOST adventure. I guess we’re just older and much more mature now . . . I say that “tongue in cheek” . . . hardly anyone would think about naming themselves “katespanties” nowadays . . . Every time Hurley or Sawyer made a wisecrack, some of us would immediately change our monikers . . . i.e. Red . . Neck . . Man . . . Gone are the days of Ol’Bug Eyes and Mudhole girl fights! Gone are those giddy days of yore when we all cheered as people were buried alive along with their riches . . .

Now we’re almost consumed with veeerrrrrry deeeeeeep analyzations and speculations . . . being Biblical and Mythical and anthopoli-logical . . . ! . .

But nevertheless, allow me to add to the MYSTERIOUS legend of LOST:

This article was posted by MAC on the Lost Blog on August 22, 2005 at 1:18 PM:

You can bank a TV show's success on how many lawsuits it spawns. Currently, "Lost" must be climbing up the charts. The Sci-Fi Channel is reporting that an L.A.-based writer has slapped a suit on ABC and producer Touchstone Television, claiming that a concept he wrote in 1977 is the current ABC hit.

Anthony Spinner filed the suit Friday seeking unspecified -- but I'm guessing big -- damages. He claims he was hired back in the day by Sid and Marty Krofft Productions, who you might know as the masterminds behind "Sigmund the Seamonster" and "H.R. Pufnstuf." Spinner was contracted to create a show -- a show that he claims ABC is now raking in the cash on.


WAIT A MINUTE! DID HE SAY . . . 1977 !?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!! OMG, it’s like an omen or something! The past is coming back to haunt us!

And, believe it or not . . . Anthony Spinner goes by the nickname of . . . JUGHEAD!!!!!!


aaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHH!

(Yes. I’m making this up. We’re just all way too heavy around here.)

#454. Posted by: davidrh at May 20, 2009 5:33 PM

im sure 8 months will pass quickly,
i will re-watch season 5 and check out the posts in here (a'la groundhog day).
i will have to be more cautious before season 6 begins,
they cant seem to let us watch a new season here without putting on some stupid spoiler show before the season even starts.

#455. Posted by: san at May 20, 2009 6:56 PM

So what did you do during the past hour?

My wife and I planted flowers. Our patio looks very nice now. When we finished we

FOOOOOOMMMMMED

into our comfy chairs with a cold beverage in hand and toasted Juliette's memory.

Thanks MAC for another great season of scenarios.

So what's on the TV now? .. . .

#456. Posted by: davidrh at May 20, 2009 9:03 PM

@ 456. Posted by: davidrh

So what's on the TV now? .. . .

____________________________________

about 4 hours of Ghost Hunters re-runs on Sci-Fi

#457. Posted by: steve at May 20, 2009 9:18 PM

→ 443. ealgumby: "TPTB have thrown all these "near misses" at us, but no single one of them encapsulates the underlying Lost story, which remains a moving target, and as elusive as ever."

I think that occurs because we often treat the various cultural references as though they were puzzle pieces that must fit "just right" into the Lost master jigsaw.

This is one of the reasons I've debated with welh in the past on the Egyptian references- there clearly are major connections to Egyptian mythology, but that doesn't mean that the characters are actually Egyptian gods, or that the island is an actual place that can be found in Egyptian mythology.

Lost operates (IMO) around certain themes, and so takes bits and pieces of many different novels, myths, biblical stories, etc., that illustrate and complement those themes.

Most of the older myths it references were written as metaphors, not as literal history. So way back in post #46, when I called Man #2 "Esau Set", I was referring to the long line of ancient stories that use the metaphor of two brothers in conflict to understand and explain the eternal battle of progress/light vs. nature/dark, with two prime examples being the stories of Jacob and Esau and Osiris and Set.

TPTB chose the name Jacob for a particular reason when they developed the story arc. Whether or not our two characters prove out to be actual brothers doesn't invalidate the central theme of "brothers" in opposition as a metaphor for the struggle over the true nature of our humanity.

The debate on Mr. Man's real name has obscured a lot of (to me) more interesting topics, such as whether the Incident means season 6 will be a reboot for the key characters, or why Jacob used quotes from The Odyssey into his fabric, or for how far back did Man #2 influence Locke's life (Doc Jensen writes that he believes Esau/Set was involved as early as the car accident that caused Locke's premature birth).

Or how about the old Lost chestnut of son vs. father, where Ben killed his father, Locke caused the death of his father, Sawyer killed his figurative father that gave him his name and life purpose, Jack created the events that led to his father's death, etc.

Now we see Ben killing his spirtual father, Jacob,possibly the same entity that healed him in the temple when he was a boy (or was it Esau/Set, anticipating the future?). One of the biblical Jacobs' sons was Benjamin, but that doesn't mean that season #6 will reveal that Lost Jacob is literally Lost Ben's father.

#458. Posted by: Mizzed at May 20, 2009 10:08 PM

@454/davidrh: “Anthony Spinner filed the suit Friday seeking unspecified -- but I'm guessing big -- damages. He claims he was hired back in the day by Sid and Marty Krofft Productions …”

Let me explore this “Sid and Marty Krofft” angle just a bit further …

According to oracleofbacon.org (tinyurl.com/cwe8zb), Marty Krofft and Clint Eastwood have a separation number of just three. WOW … they’re practically brothers! In the interest of simplicity, let me refer to Marty/Clint as Jacob/Esau.

Pursuing Esau’s career, we find he “made a name” for himself as … get this … “the man with no name!” Hmm … sound familiar (tinyurl.com/prw8w)? Man #2!

What do we know of this “man with no name?” From wiki:

“The Man with No Name will fight dirty and shoot first, if required by his own self-defined sense of justice.”

Sound like anyone we know? Hmm … we all know what Man #2 has to say about the Ajirans!

Also from wiki:

“He is generally portrayed as an outsider, a mercenary or bounty hunter, or even an outlaw. He is characteristically soft-spoken and laconic. The character is an oft-cited example of an anti-hero, although he has a soft spot for people in deep trouble.”

Who else but the Losties are people in deep trouble! Man #2 (aka, The Man with No Name) is CLEARLY “soft-spoken and laconic,” as well as looking out for the deeply troubled Losties (Jacob has caused all of their troubles BTW!).

In “The Dollars Trilogy,” The Man with No Name (TMWNN) repeatedly “switches sides” until his final allegiance is identified … do we really know if Esau (aka Man #2 … aka TMWNN) is with or against Widmore? Can he be “switching sides” ala TMWNN in the trilogy? Hmm … the evidence seems compelling.

Furthermore, Esau also played TMWNN in the somewhat supernatural (hmm…) “High Plains Drifter,” where he wreaks vengeance upon those who have wronged him in the past … AFTER his death! In HPD, the protagonist is ultimately named (?) as “Jim Duncan,” who apparently only wants to rest in peace.

I would suggest “Esau” will be revealed to be named James, not Esau. And James will have been pitted in a potentially eternal conflict with the evil Jacob, who has kept him from resting in peace … the Island et al will be shown as merely ends to James escaping Jacob’s (i.e., Satan’s) grasp, and finally resting in peace.

It all begins with the Sid & Marty Krofft link, and inevitably leads to the final conclusion … Clint Eastwood will appear in the series finale, Man #2 having taken his form, and riding off “into the shimmering horizon whence he came” upon one of Widmore’s horses, with eerie music playing in the background.

The evidence for this theory is incontrovertible … question it if you will, but weep when I am proven correct!

And to davidrh, et al … we still have a sense of humor here … ;)

#459. Posted by: ealgumby at May 20, 2009 10:10 PM

@456 davidrh asked:

>So what did you do during the past hour?

I spent the last hour finishing up my last Survivor post from the three-hour finale Sunday night.

And now I FOOOOM to bed, done blogging House and Survivor for a blessed four or five months or so. Freeee!

#460. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 20, 2009 11:11 PM

459. Posted by: ealgumby
"… we still have a sense of humor here … ;) "


And obviously, much too much time on our hands!

Very funny. Great way to start the morning!

And seeing the next posting after yours, do you ever think about the similarity of . . . well, I'll just say it: Mac Skywalker and Obewan-Cecil ?


#461. Posted by: davidrh at May 21, 2009 7:12 AM

ealgumby,you made me laugh this morning; thank you!

Seriously...You're right about the names and similarities to historical/fictional characters not intending to imply that Jacob is THE Jacob or TMWNN is actually Esau or Jacob's brother. The similarities are meant to remind us that the themes are as old as mankind.

It doesn't matter who/what that statue is...what matters is that the power of the cult was (is) a factor on the island. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the enmity between Jacob and TMWNN is based in their affiliation/ devotion to opposing religious beliefs.

Because nothing is new under the sun.

#462. Posted by: undaunted at May 21, 2009 7:59 AM

How ILBLxx spent her Wednesday night from 9-10:

I watched the finale of American Idol... First time watching it live. Usually I Ti-Vo it because LOST. is on, and I watch it later... Part of me hates it because it causes LOST. to lose viewers... but I don't think non-dedicated fans should watch LOST. anyway. =]

#463. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 21, 2009 8:34 AM

@459: ealgumby - In that case, I expect the final line of the show will be "Are ya feelin' lucky, punk?" and then there'll be a fade to red with the Lost letters in white, fading to black.

#464. Posted by: LostedIt at May 21, 2009 9:18 AM

ealgumby...nice job...love the Eastwood...Rowdy Yates..."Ever notice how they're always Wagon Training, but they never seem to get anywhere?"

Never took enough acid to really get Sid and Marty... Damn, but that HR Pufnstuf and Witchy Poo, Jack (Jack?) and his Talking Flute freaked me the hell out.

To reduce/eliminate the Esau argument, I propose we call Jacob's beach buddy Clint. Man # 2 is just so anonymous, so unfeeling, so pedestrian. We can do...nay...we ARE better than that.

#465. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 21, 2009 10:25 AM

So, just how cannon are the official Lost recaps on the ABC website? Just as we've about all decided that the statue has the alligator head of the Egyptian god Sobek, along come the ABC recap of the episode to say:

"And as the camera pulls back, we see what we've been waiting to see since we first glimpsed that four-toed foot over three years ago... the towering, majestic statue of the Egyptian goddess Taweret."

I'm Lost again - sure doesn't look like a Hippo head to me...

#466. Posted by: Cecil at May 21, 2009 11:01 AM

Today, I watched both parts, 1 & 2 online, as I've been on an extended trip and not able to watch last Wednesday or get to see it online until now. WOW is all I can say. Reading all of the posts have been great.

I see Jacob and M#2 as others have stated, some type of gods that are opposites - good/evil - black/white. Jacob states that M#2 just can't wait to kill him. Such a blatant line that we should have seen it once Locke said he was going to kill Jacob.

8 months will be a long time.

And a big thank you to Mac! You have made LOST so much more with this blog.

#467. Posted by: dk at May 21, 2009 11:41 AM

I asked this on anothr blog as well -->

Can anyone explain why the others don’t foom with the Losties. If all this started with Ben moving the island and setting the FDW off it’s axis, why are the Others insulated from the time phenom?

#468. Posted by: steve at May 21, 2009 11:52 AM

@ 454/davidrh
Actually, LOST did have a significant piece of Hollywood litigation.

After the Hanks' movie "Castaway" was a hit, an ABC executive wanted a TV series like it. A production company hired Jeffrey Lieber to write a script, called "Nowhere." He wrote a realistic drama based on the theme of rebuilding a society after a plane crash on an island. Lieber's story line was that two half brothers, bitter rivals, would compete for the leadership role of the survivors. The half brothers tensions were based on the fact that their father had raised them totally differently. The two half brothers would attempt to lead 8-10 main characters: a doctor, a con man, a fugitive, a pregnant woman, a drug addict, a military officer, a spoiled rich girl, and a young family.

After the pilot script was written, ABC management had changed; they wanted a "name" to run to show so they went to Abrams, who thought the premise could not last a season. So he said he could add "mysteries and monsters" to the script. ABC like the idea, and D&C added the "flashback" concept to get the characters off-island and to stretch the show beyond a season. ABC green lighted the $12 million pilot without a shooting script, just Abrams and D&C's comments and ideas for the show.

ABC rejected Lieber as a creator of LOST, but a Hollywood arbitration panel, after viewing the pilot to Lieber's original script, ruled in Lieber's favor, giving him a co-creator credit to LOST.

#469. Posted by: welh at May 21, 2009 11:57 AM

I know it might be a long shot -- but has anyone seen the 7th season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Another great show of its time. Anywho, the final season of the show revolved around the shapeshifting entity known as "The First Evil".. Essentially, the original ancient evil that is behind humanities faults, evil tendancies, etc. it's been a while for me, but for the last 5 years of LOST, this thought has been there for me of the parallel -- and definitly now, as we enter the sixth season, i'm seeing even more similarities. I'm likely way off, but interesting non-the-less!!

#470. Posted by: vintaag at May 21, 2009 4:21 PM

i also forgot to mention, RE: the First Evil on BtVS -- this was an entity that was able to shapeshift at will, but only in the form of people who have died, thus setting up a brilliant show down of Buffy Vs. DeadBuffy. Could there still be hope of a Locke Vs. EvilLocke show down??

#471. Posted by: vintaag at May 21, 2009 4:23 PM

→ 466. Cecil: "...just how cannon..."

Maybe it was the Black Rock cannon that was repaired & used to destroy the statue...but that's not canon. ; >

Sobek v. Tawaret:

I'm still thinking it looked more like a hippo to me than a crocodile, but also wondered if TPTB were going to make it be a crocodile because of RA's comment at some point in the past, that the obsession w/pregnant women was Ben's thing & not the main point of the island, & thus the plotline of problem pregnancies was going to quietly be swept under the rug.

#472. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 21, 2009 4:29 PM

@468 steve asked:

>Can anyone explain why the others don’t foom with the Losties. If all this started with Ben moving the island and setting the FDW off it’s axis, why are the Others insulated from the time phenom?

I'm thinking there's something different about these folks, and that difference is --- Jacob's touch.


Whoever or whatever Jacob is, he's been out in the world and recruiting. His touch imparted something special, that has made it possible for them to interact in some way with the forces unleashed when the wheel was turned.

This raises the questions - what about Rose/Bernard, Frogurt, assorted other red shirts/sock puppets? So why did they FOOM? And not the Others?
Maybe it comes from contact with the chosen ones? It would have to be continued contact, since we have no evidence that others - with casual contact, eg, Ben, for instance, have been FOOMing.

Also what about Faraday, Miles, Charlotte? Did they have contacts yet seen in their past with Jacob.

And finally what about Sun? She's definitely been touched by Jacob, so why hasn't she FOMed?

Another Jacob question - what was Jacob's list, and why wasn't Jack on it, seeing as he was one of the touchees?

#473. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 21, 2009 4:40 PM

@472 Alaïs_Longthought posted:

>Sobek v. Tawaret:

>I'm still thinking it looked more like a hippo to me than a crocodile, but also wondered if TPTB were going to make it be a crocodile because of RA's comment at some point in the past, that the obsession w/pregnant women was Ben's thing & not the main point of the island, & thus the plotline of problem pregnancies was going to quietly be swept under the rug.

But hippos, for all that they are very dangerous, are not meat eaters, and have a few, flattened, herbivore teeth.

The statue appeared to have a long pointed snout with many sharp carnivore teeth.

And Tawaret was supposed to be eternally pregnant, whereas the statue torso appears to be of slim and masculine build.

#474. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 21, 2009 4:49 PM

? 459. Posted by: ealgumby
Clint Eastwood will appear in the series finale, Man #2 having taken his form,

...but he will say...

"Get off my lawn."

He doesn't seem to like people coming to his island after all, now does he?

#475. Posted by: Gumbo at May 21, 2009 4:56 PM

Tawaret mythology changed during the various Egyptian kingdoms. She was once an evil god which combined all early Egyptian fears (crocodiles, hippos and lions). She became a less evil, motherly figure when it was shown that aggressive Nile hippos were usually female, protecting their young. Even then, it was said that she consorted with a crocodile god. Then in the latter kingdoms, she was seen as the wife of Apep, the serpent god of the underworld. So if you mash-up the stories, she is both evil and protective.

I also found it odd that with all the Egyptian mythology, there is only one character with an Egyptian name: Horus. Richard(us) implies a Roman name. Oliva, Eloise: English. Jacob: Hebrew. It is like all the island names corrolate to all the nations who once conquered North Africa.

#476. Posted by: welh at May 21, 2009 5:30 PM

@ 473. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Also what about Faraday, Miles, Charlotte? Did they have contacts yet seen in their past with Jacob.

And finally what about Sun? She's definitely been touched by Jacob, so why hasn't she FOMed?

Another Jacob question - what was Jacob's list, and why wasn't Jack on it, seeing as he was one of the touchees?

*****************************

Don't leave out Juliet. Sun is a conundrum. but I have an Idea about Jack.

I think Jack may actually be an Other he just doesn't know it. Charley said that Jack was not supposed to raise Aaron, and the Psychic said that Claire should not let "another" raise him. Maybe the Psychic meant that she should not let Aaron be raised by "an Other".

Just a thought ...

#477. Posted by: Steve at May 21, 2009 6:03 PM

→ 474. Cecil Rose: Crocodile v. hippo:

Welh already posted an interesting summary of how Taweret's meaning/mythology evolved...if you look at the picture in the Wikipedia article, there's quite a close resemblance between our beloved four-toed condo/statue & Taweret:

tinyurl.com/p96x53

ealgumby & I were discussing names last night & Horace/Horus came up. My comment was, "Who names their kid Horace?" Even though Horace the Mathematician was probably born in the 1930s, the name wasn't super-popular during that decade...running somewhere between 100 & 200 in ranking...so it seems that TPTB chose "Horace" deliberately (as they have said they've done w/all of their name choices). In any case, I thought it was interesting that some of the name sources I checked said that the meaning of "Horace" comes from the Latin "hora," meaning "hour" or "time."

I'll defer to welh on Horus & his mythology meaning & how that might fit w/LOST, but noted that it was interesting that Horus is depicted w/the head of a falcon. Falcons are far-seeing birds...& Horace was present at Ben's birth.

#478. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 21, 2009 6:09 PM

#478 Alaïs_Longthought posted:

>Welh already posted an interesting summary of how Taweret's meaning/mythology evolved...if you look at the picture in the Wikipedia article, there's quite a close resemblance between our beloved four-toed condo/statue & Taweret:

>tinyurl.com/p96x53

That stature certainly has many sharp teeth. But are we sure it's Taweret? Looking a little lower, it seems to be a male figure. Excessively male, one might almost say.

#479. Posted by: Cecil at May 21, 2009 7:09 PM

→ 479. Cecil: Excessively male, one might almost say...

The caption says that the statue is Taweret following the figure of Wadjet, the cobra (who is actually a female deity & the cobra depicted on the uraeus).

#480. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 21, 2009 9:19 PM

I'm just wondering... if all the woman and children (non-essential personelle) were being evacuated from the island -- what happened to Amy and baby Ethan?? We know Ethan is on the Island around age 10, with Ben. Do you think he was left behind? Did he leave the Island and then return to find the place he was born like so many other characters? I don't think we're done with the Dharmaville story...

#481. Posted by: vintaag at May 21, 2009 11:06 PM

Count me in on those who found Freddy the Talking Flute excessively creepy.

After rewatching the finale, and pondering everyone's comments, I believe Jacob will turn out to be a force of good, or at worst, neutral.

The image of the fisherman, the laying of hands, the association with sun gods Apollo and Aten, the healer, the blessings in the tapestry, the potential Christ/Osiris sacrifice followed by season 6 resurrrection, the contrast of white vs. black, all seem heavily weighted in favor of that conclusion (I realize, of course, that doesn't make it so).

I've also come around to believing that the Jack group will NOT foom to 2007/2008, but are in fact, dead, an event witnessed by Richard as he watched the Swan incident from afar. Dead, as in M-O-O-N, as in lifted directly from a comparable scene in The Stand.

As others have suggested, what comes next may be right out of "Flashes Before Your Eyes"- those that were touched by Jacob consciousness-jump back to the moment he touched them.

In other words, Jacob essentially bookmarked the characters at a pivotal moment when their life began to fall apart- Kate and Sawyer at a very young age, Jack when his conflict with his father began to escalate, Sayid when his grief over Nadia turned him into an assasin, Jin just before he accepted his role as enforcer for Mr. Paik.

Essentially, they will be given a do-over, an opportunity to right their wrongs and find redemption, in episodes that will mirror their flashback scenes from season 1.

This is the reason why they were foomed off the Ajira plane- because they weren't ready yet to be on Jacob's list. (As Mikhail said, "you are all flawed').

Again, the earlier Desmond episodes serve as the template. Desmond is special because he exercised free will to repeat his cycle, to sacrifice his love for Penny a second time, and endure again the despair of the hatch and the button.

By the end of season 6, their lives fixed and their hearts full, the Jack group will also accept their destiny, and ultimately decide to return to the island of their own free will (yes, I am partly drinking the free will Kool-Aid, but with a Destiny chaser).

This time, they will come to the island as saviors- hence Jacob's message, "They're Coming". The loop will be broken, progress will be made, destiny fulfilled, redemption found, Esau/Set/Man Dos/The Un-Locked/Peter Brady/Cabin Boy will be defeated, and perhaps each will be rewarded with something they've never really had- family and a real home.

Then again, as Dennis Miller is fond of saying, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

#482. Posted by: Mizzed at May 21, 2009 11:39 PM

@482/Mizzed: "I believe Jacob will turn out to be a force of good, or at worst, neutral."

So much up in the air right now ... but my gut feel is that Jacob is not good. That will be the shocker ...

Jacob seems to be the benevolent figure right now, between himself and Man #2. However, consider that Jacob has been "hell-bent" on bringing "flawed" people to the island. One could assume this means he's giving them a second chance at redemption. Or, like a don putting together a team of goons, a criminal mastermind finding/grooming his A-team of thugs to do his bidding ... whether they know it or not, because their nature is to lean toward the side of evil.

How do you explain Sayid being turned toward serial killer, and/or shooting little Ben? Does that sound like something "God" would do? Or Jacob giving Sawyer the pen he needed to complete his letter of retribution, ultimately leading to the death of Locke's father at his hands? Need I go on? Jacob is a manipulator, NOT a savior.

No ... I do NOT think Jacob is the "good guy" ... in fact, I think he is essentially Mephistopheles, or Satan himself, by any other name. Note Man #2 has "no name," but Jacob does ... "God" is the one with "no name," so to speak Biblically (or that which shall not be spoken), but "the Devil" goes by many aliases, "including Abbadon, Angra Mainyu, Satan, Asmodai, Beelzebub, Lucifer, Belial, and Iblisas" in various manifestations ... as he is the deceiver, trickster, and tempter. Man #2 is, at least metaphorically, "God," while Jacob is, essentially, the Devil.

He (she? ... it?) comes across as the good guy (LYING!), but keeps bringing humans into conflict, as Man #2 points out. Why? In short, IMO, Jacob is Eris ... from wiki: "the Greek goddess of strife, her name being translated into Latin as Discordia." I would suggest that Jacob is actually Eris/Discordia/Seth/Satan/et al. Jacob is NOT the good guy ... he/she/it is evil ... "it's" sole goal is to create chaos and disorder, and keeps bringing people to the island for that purpose.

Jacob's whole shtick is to get people to do bad things willingly ... that's where he gets his "power." Man #2 turns the tables and gets Jacob's "chosen" people to turn against him using the same motif ... that's "the loophole." Turning bad people against evil "of their own free will," without them even realizing it.

This is "the twist" of the Lost story ... but again, that's just my opinion ... Man #2 will end up being the good guy at the end of the day.

As the Stones say:

>>>
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
Cause I'm in need of some restraint
>>>

Jacob is Lucifer ... and he's in need of some restraint.

Sorry, but I think those who believe Jacob is good are 180 out of true ...

JMHO

I also do not see this as patently Judeo-Christian, as many religions have analogous entities in their traditions, which seems in consonance with TPTB's approach toward the show. Once again, just my opinion ...

#483. Posted by: ealgumby at May 22, 2009 1:08 AM

@481. Posted by: vintaag at May 21, 2009 11:06 PM

I'm just wondering... if all the woman and children (non-essential personelle) were being evacuated from the island -- what happened to Amy and baby Ethan?? We know Ethan is on the Island around age 10, with Ben. Do you think he was left behind?
____________________________________

I felt it was entirely possible that Amy is a plant in Dharmaville for the others. Either willing or changed into one of them. More likely a willing defector. She is found out by the two others in 1974 and they have her captured when Sawyer Saves her. She was really quick to have Sayid executed before he, as she thought he was an Other, could identify her and blow it for her.

Just thinking out load.

#484. Posted by: Steve at May 22, 2009 1:25 AM

No ... I do NOT think Jacob is the "good guy" ... in fact, I think he is essentially Mephistopheles, or Satan himself, by any other name. Note Man #2 has "no name," but Jacob does ... "God" is the one with "no name," so to speak Biblically (or that which shall not be spoken), but "the Devil" goes by many aliases
483. Posted by: ealgumby


This would really be the ULTIMATE TWIST to the plot . . . and it's not at all far-fetched.

We'll see.

#485. Posted by: davidrh at May 22, 2009 7:52 AM

Hi Guys,

Great Recap as usual. I am a great fan of LOST, however little disappointed on some of the things that went on this season overall. For example the way O6++ returned to the island, why some in 1977 and others in 2007 (e.g. Sun???) amongst other things. But overall LOST is still the best and very much looking forward to final season to see how it all ends.

One thing though I don't understand on this blog is that why people don't like Kate's charachter???

Kate was my fav charachter in first 4 seasons. This season she went into background a bit, but still one of my fav charchters!!! So people get off her back :)

#486. Posted by: HK at May 22, 2009 7:53 AM

@478/Alaïs_Longthought

Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, was called "Horus who rules with two eyes." His right eye was white representing the sun while his left eye was black representing the moon.

According to Egyptian legend Horus lost his left eye during a fight with his murderous uncle, Seth. Horus was fighting to avenge his father's death. Seth tore out his nephew's eye but lost the fight because the assembly of the gods declared Horus the victor. One of the most prominent myths concerning the moon relates its cycle to the battle between Horus and Seth. During this famous battle over the inheritance of Osiris, Seth steals the (left) eye of Horus, damages it, and divides it into six parts. Thoth, with his magic (and with the help of other gods) reassembles the eye. Then Horus gave the eye to Osiris who experiences rebirth in the underworld.

There is a different Eye story: the Eye of Ra, in which the supreme sun god sends a god to wipe out the humans who stopped properly worshipping Ra. Just as the human race is about to be wiped out, Ra intervenes and saves mankind from total destruction. The Eye of Ra is depicted as the right Egyptian eye, and in various cultures is it considered "the Evil Eye."

Since LOST likes to use close up of eyes for dramatic effect, I researched whether there was some pattern. I could not find whether there is no left eye vs. right eye pattern (teams). Both right and left eyes have been used, including different ones for the same character (Jack). I also found the oddity that at one point Locke's eye color changed from brown to blue. I don't know the significance of that change.

#487. Posted by: welh at May 22, 2009 9:15 AM

@ 486. Posted by: HK

One thing though I don't understand on this blog is that why people don't like Kate's charachter???

Kate was my fav charachter in first 4 seasons. This season she went into background a bit, but still one of my fav charchters!!! So people get off her back :)
___________________________________

We might like her character more if she would get off her back. her character is a selfish user that gets glimers of morality when it comes to the actions of those around her. She is a fly in the ointment. Great character!!!! weak individual !!!!!!!

#488. Posted by: steve at May 22, 2009 10:12 AM

steve: I agree about Amy. There's something rubs me the wrong way about that whole picnic scenario.

ealgumby: re: Jacob is the bad and TMWNN is the good...Could be. It's an interesting angle. We'll see.

But Jacob's "bringing flawed people to the island" ? That's a redundancy...all people are "flawed". Neither Jacob nor Ben turned Sayid into an assassin...Sayid turned Sayid into an assassin. He had a choice, he chose. That's done; now what? Eko did the same thing...he had choices, he chose. He also chose not to wrap himself in guilt, he forgave himself and he changed his life. Smokey did not like that about Eko and beat him to death.

IMO...Eko's murder by Smokey is the "tell" with regard to the nature of Smokey and He Who Controls Smokey. In my estimation, Rose & Eko are the only totally self aware people on the island and that makes them both nigh on to impossible to manipulate.

They have an inner compass that they chart their course by and no one can shake their confidence on the reliability of their inner compass. They've walked through their personal hell and come out not just none the worse for wear, but stronger.

None of the other 815ers have done that yet. They are each still struggling with their demons. So they can be tempted (manipulated) by outside forces who appeal to their need for redemption, forgiveness,understanding, love, vindication, affirmation.

Mizzed: I like your observation that Jacob touched each of those Lostees at a pivotal point in their life. Bookmarked... interesting!

Perhaps because it is my own philosophy, but I think LOST is less about looking outside and aligning ourselves with the good or evil, than it is about looking inside and discovering that everything we so desperately seek is totally and completely within us.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul."

#489. Posted by: undaunted at May 22, 2009 10:23 AM

@473: Cecil Rose - I was thinking the same thing about who went back and who didn't but as you said Jacob did touch Sun and we know she didn't foom back in time so that blew that theory out of the water. Then there's Juliet, who did go back and was never touched (but her dad did look somewhat like Jacob). Was there a substitution there?

@477: Steve - Doc Jensen had a very interesting and now perhaps eerily prescient analysis of the whole thing with Claire telling Kate "Don't you dare bring him back" and Charlie telling Hurley to tell Jack that "You're not supposed to raise him". Doc Jensen's theory was that, in both instances, they weren't referring to Aaron but in fact Locke. Put into the perspective of what we now know about Locke being impersonated upon return to the island, those two instances may very well be what Doc Jensen said rather than what everyone took at face value the first time around.

For that matter, in that context one could surmise that the final season is going to continue filling in such details we never knew about the first time around (like all of the people that Jacob touched) or took to mean one thing but in fact meant something completely different (like Claire and Charlie's words).

That also brings up an interesting subject I was discussing with a colleague earlier today, and I think I brought this up already but I forget (my memory goes back to what I had for breakfast this morning and not much further, sometimes not even that far). There are a number of people who have presented themselves to confirmed living people (as far as we know, they're alive) on the show. We've already seen that Locke is likely "Esau"/Man#2. Of the rest, though, who, if anyone, is "pulling the strings" so the speak? If we're to assume that "dead is dead" and all of the entities are actually characters other than the one we're seeing, who is behind each character? I've heard Christian say "I speak for Jacob" (or something similar) to (if I remember correctly) Locke. Does that mean it really was Jacob? Was it "Esau"/Man #2? Was it Smokey? What about Claire? She was sitting there next to Christian in that scene. Was she also the same "puppet master" or was this a situation of "Esau"/Man #2 and Smokey each taking one form? Some argue "Esau"/Man #2 and Smokey are one and the same? I beg to differ, but for argument's sake say it's true. Then can one entity play two parts at the same time, as seen in that scene? Now, what about Charlie? Who "played" him in each time that Hurley saw him? What about Claire? In the scene when she's screaming at Kate I'd surmise it to be Jacob, but then what about her scene with Christian? Are two people actually taking her form? Now, what about Walt? He's quite alive as far as I can tell, yet somehow Locke saw him when he was lying "mortally wounded" in the Dharma purge pit. I thought they ("Esau"/Man #2, Jacob, and/or Smokey) could only take the form of dead people. How do we account for this scene given that fact?

I'm truly hoping all of this will be answered in S6, but I've got to be honest, in some ways I'm also somewhat fearing S6. We're going to get all of the answers we're going to get by the closing scene of the series finale. We may find there's a ton of answers we wanted but will now never get. We may find answers that don't make us very happy (What if "Esau"/Man #2 and Jacob can take the form of dead people and they discard explaining the Walt scene entirely?). We may find they've gone in some directions which leave us very perturbed (What if everything reverts back to the 815 flight and everyone who ever died is alive again and nobody remembers anything - ie: everything we've seen in the last 5 seasons never existed? I know it may all be for the good of the story but I don't know how I'd feel to just see some Star Trek TNG episode that spans 54 years [1954-2004] play itself out. Then again, they've done something like this before that I HATED and it turned out they had a plan and it worked out fine [That being the shooting of Ben in 1977] so there's precedence here.). There's a lot at stake in this final season and I've got a ton of faith in TPTB "bringin' it home" so to speak. At the same time, there's still that little tinge of worry lingering in the back of my head at the unknown factors ahead. Will they truly have crafted a 6-season gem unmatched in its complexity, completeness, and ability to satisfy? Or, will it all fall apart in a smoldering heap of contradictions, implausibility, and outright preposterousness? I'm leaning very heavily towards the former but at the same time dread the thought of finding this all turning out to be someone's dream and JR walking out of a shower.

@482: Mizzed effused "I am partly drinking the free will Kool-Aid, but with a Destiny chaser" - Methinks you could pass the bottle around so we can all get a swig. ;)

@483: ealgumby - I see where you're going with this, but I've got to say I'm under the impression that Jacob is good (that being said, I'll eat my words...). My feeling from that initial scene in the S5 finale was one of Jacob trying over and over to foster something within humanity (or at the very least someone) that will lead us (or that one person?) to some higher level. "It ends only once, everything before that is progress" (to paraphrase the exact quote that I don't recall at this moment) is what Jacob said. He's trying to change something. What that is we don't know. Is it his own future? Humanity's? The island's? S6 will obviously expand that storyline, and likely be the theme of the entire season. We just need to wait it out to find out what that story is.

Ok, long post. Got to actually work now...

#490. Posted by: LostedIt at May 22, 2009 11:02 AM

@489/undaunted: "Perhaps because it is my own philosophy, but I think LOST is less about looking outside and aligning ourselves with the good or evil, than it is about looking inside ..."

I agree 100%. I also think TPTB have made the good/evil lines intentionally ambiguous (which is in large part why I think they will end up casting Jacob as the "bad" guy before all is said and done ... nothing is ever simple with this show). Further, I think this lack of clarity regarding who "the good guys" really are is a (perhaps THE) central theme of the show.

In the end, after so many "loopholes," manipulations, and deaths committed by both "sides" in the "great war" ... will it really matter which side is "right" anymore? This is when humanity will take its next big step forward, look inside, and move ahead independently ... whether Jacob or Man #2 is good/evil will become a moot point.

JMO, but I think this is a hugely important aspect of the Lost storyline, and I agree with you regarding the significance of Rose and Bernard in this plot. They will arise as the true "saviors" of the island (all of humanity?), a serene presence amid the insanity of the Jacob/Man #2 war. When the Losties finally pull their heads out and realize this, they will follow Rose/Bernard ("Adam and Eve") and leave both Jacob/Man #2 behind. It is love that will ultimately prevail, but somehow I think Rose/Bernard will end up having to sacrifice themselves. Hence how they end up in the cave, but that's just a guess.

Of course, all of this is just a guess, but it makes sense to me.

#491. Posted by: ealgumby at May 22, 2009 11:18 AM

Quick question for Mac et al ... is anyone else having trouble getting to filmfodder sites using IE? Something seems to have changed a couple days ago with the filmfodder pages, and IE doesn't seem to like it (I get an error message telling me IE cannot display the page). For whatever reason, if I reboot the PC, IE works okay again (at least for a while), but eventually the same problem comes back again (could this be related to some new banner ad started within the past few days?).

I can use Safari and/or Mozilla without issue, so whatever the issue is here, it's related to IE. I have also seen this on multiple machines (home and work), so it's not just my computer.

#492. Posted by: ealgumby at May 22, 2009 11:32 AM

losted it: "it ends only once, everything else is progress"

that's an indisputable fact! that's the point behind the philosophy of reincarnation in all it's forms. Whether we believe in actual repetition of lifes,or in repetition of situations in one life, it holds true: It ends only once, everything else is progress.

#493. Posted by: undaunted at May 22, 2009 11:36 AM

@ 492. Posted by: ealgumby

I can use Safari and/or Mozilla without issue, so whatever the issue is here, it's related to IE. I have also seen this on multiple machines (home and work), so it's not just my computer.
****************************************

I think Microsoft just updated IE to version 9, and that could have cased some issues. I am using firefox and have had no problems.

#494. Posted by: steve at May 22, 2009 12:00 PM

********* VERY LONG POST ALERT *********

By gum by golly I've not felt this conflicted since the dawn of Paper or Plastic?

My hat is off to both mizzed and ealgumby for proposing two of the most Siren-tific theories I have ever heard. I am drawn to both of them like a drunken firefly to a bug zapper on a Saturday night.

If I may be so bold/presumptuous as to compare/contrast...

Mizzed believes "...Jacob will turn out to be...good..."
Arguments:
1. The image of the fisherman
2. The laying of hands
3. The association with sun gods Apollo and Aten
4. The blessings in the tapestry

To summarize -
A. Jacob essentially bookmarked the characters at a pivotal moment when their life began to fall apart, and
B. Essentially, they will be given a do-over

Ealgumby proposes "...Jacob is not good."
Arguments:
1. Sayid being turned toward serial killer
2. Jacob giving Sawyer the pen
3. Man #2 has "no name," but Jacob does
4. "God" is the one with "no name,", but "the Devil" goes by many aliases

To summarize:
A. (Jacob) comes across as the good guy (LYING!), but keeps bringing humans into conflict, and
B. Jacob (gets) people to do bad things willingly

As I try to sort out these points, my feeble mind is deafened by a screeching-brakes twisted-metal high-speed-collision cacophony.

Thanks, guys (he said in a non-gender-specific way). Now I have deep thoughts.


********* End of Part I - Stay tuned for Part II *********

#495. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 22, 2009 12:12 PM

********* VERY LONG POST ALERT *********

I am siding with ealgumby. And let me tell you why.

This is television. We're used to being spoon-fed. If there's anything I've learned about this show it's that you can't take anything at face value. Nothing, and I mean nothing in this show is what it seems.

We've been shown Jacob wearing white, fishing, touching, weaving his symbology-heavy tapestry. All scenes designed to make us believe he is "good." But - and this is a BIG but (not like Sir Mix-A-Lot's Big Butt but a big but nonetheless), if you look closely at the Losties that he touched, his showing up at that crucial moment enabled our Losties to continue on their slippery slope towards the Dark Side.

By bailing Katie out of her little sticky-fingers mess, he showed her that she can get away with bad stuff and not have to worry about repercussions. If he hadn't given Jimmy a pen so he could continue his Dear Sawyer letter, ADHD Jimmy probably would have given up on writing his letter and grieved "properly" and eventually come to terms with his parents' passing. He distracted Sayid just long enough so Nadia could get run over in an accident that either Sayid would've prevented or been taken out along with her. He chilled Jack out (Apollo? chocolate bar), but Jack screwed up and had that dressing-down coming and could have done with a large piece of humble pie. He gave Locke hope at a moment when he needed it allowing him to hold on and live instead of "My life really sucks" and just quitting and dying. He gave Hurley a reason to return to the island, giving him a guitar case full of Drive Shaft LP's or whatever the hell is in there, planting thoughts of re-uniting with his pal Charlie. He put an extra layer of frosting on Sun and Jin's wedding cake, fomenting the illusion that their marriage was founded on love and truth eventually allowing them to ignore warning signs of stress and infidelity that they could then talk and work through.

I am reminded of the Seven Deadly Sins:
1. Lust - Kate (NKOTB lunchbox?)
2. Gluttony - Hurley (nuff sed)
3. Greed - Sun/Jin (wedding presents?)
4. Despair - Sayid (love of his life killed)
5. Wrath - Sawyer (parents deaths)
6. Envy - Locke (always wants what others have)
7. Pride - Jack ("I can fix it")


The only qualm I have is when TMWNN told Jacob that he's going to kill him. Decidedly un-good guy-like. I have yet to reconcile that.

I think all of Jacob's fishing and weaving and touching is intended to mock TMWNN, and deceive (very devilish word that) us, the average viewer.

There. That's about it. I apologize for my lack of brevity.

******** END OF VERY LONG POST ALERT ********

#496. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 22, 2009 12:17 PM

@491: ealgumby - I really do like your idea that perhaps the good and evil tack is irrelevant or ambiguous at best to the story being presented. Perhaps we've been trying to force such a frameworks on this when none really exists. It's a situation where everyone's trying to progress their agendas and/or help someone else progress an agenda or attain some end result and that's really what matters.

@496: ransomjackson - Very interesting theory about Jacob perhaps not being the "good" one, and I think it ties in to ealgumby's aforementioned post as well. I never though of the things Jacob did in that context. I just took them at face value, that his intentions were good. I'm certainly wondering how this will all play out.

One would think that Lost is presenting us with a straightforward picture of things, setting everything up for next season. But as has been pointed out there could very well be some actions by Jacob where the results could be taken in a negative light as much as a positive one. I'm still wondering how his actions when he touched Locke were negative, and to be honest I thought his asking Kate to not steal any more was a good thing, but I'm willing to buy that the results were ambigious at best. Well, eight more months to debate this! Woo hoo!

#497. Posted by: LostedIt at May 22, 2009 12:53 PM

→ 495. Posted by: ransomjackson 'As I try to sort out these points, my feeble mind is deafened by a screeching-brakes twisted-metal high-speed-collision cacophony.'

and into my head jumped the lyrics of a favorite Pearl Jam tune.....


But on another note - What of Horace and his "time loop" chopping down tree, cabin building for him and the missus. Okay? Discuss.

#498. Posted by: LostinVT at May 22, 2009 1:16 PM

The good vs. evil comparison is never simple. Everyone has both good and evil within them; it is a person's values that determines how they live their life. Turn the other cheek or an eye for an eye.

And speaking of eyes, I have stumbled upon another odd Egyptian tangent.
In the Ancient Egyptian measurement system, the Eye Of Horus was used a form of fractional notation, each of the parts of the eye representing a different fraction. The parts of the eye were divided as follows:

* 1/2 was represented by smell,

* 1/4 was represented by sight or the sensation of light,

* 1/8 was represented by thought,

* 1/16 was represented by hearing,

* 1/32 was represented by taste,

* 1/64 was represented by touch.

These fractions were used as the basis of all medicine and prescriptions. In math, they add up to 63/64; so it was said the last 1/64th was Thoth's magic.

I also found that these numbers (2,4,8,16, 32, 64) are the same numbers on the Doubling Cube in the game of backgammon (Locke and Walt's early white/dark story of possible good vs. evil).

I also thought that Jacob touching six people may be a clue that he was hiding one his six traits in them, to be re-combined like Osiris' body parts when the "touched" 815ers are all reunited in the same time and place.

If that is the case, it would be a perfect example of Sawyer's creed, "what's in it for me?" In Jacob's case, he has devised a way to be reincarnated (again?)

#499. Posted by: welh at May 22, 2009 2:08 PM

Five hundred, bay-bee!

#500. Posted by: LostedIt at May 22, 2009 2:40 PM

@480 Alaïs_Longthought rejoindered:

>The caption says that the statue is Taweret following the figure of Wadjet, the cobra (who is actually a female deity & the cobra depicted on the uraeus).

So they say. That doesn't look like the head of any cobra *I've* ever seen.
[g]

#501. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 22, 2009 3:39 PM

ealgumby: I have had a problem today with "unable to display page". I had it in the past too, but it came and went and now it's back again because you know why? It ends only once...lol

Re: the central theme of the show...
There is no reality, there is only perspective.

You're right, whether Jacob or TMWNN is good or bad, is ultimately moot. Because the success or failure of their plans are dependent upon me. Whether or not I am aware, whether or not I choose to act for good or for bad...that is the crux of the matter.

Can I change the world? No; I can only change myself. My mom use to say that wars were started by discourtesy. I thought she was very naive until I realized she was absolutely right.

It is that simple. Not easy, but simple. Ghandi said it best, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

#502. Posted by: undaunted at May 22, 2009 3:52 PM

@492 ealgumby (And Steve, no Scott, no Steve at 493):

>Quick question for Mac et al ... is anyone else having trouble getting to filmfodder sites using IE? Something seems to have changed a couple days ago with the filmfodder pages, and IE doesn't seem to like it (I get an error message telling me IE cannot display the page).

Yeah, I was getting the same thing from late Wednesday until about Noon, Thursday. Seems to be gone today (Friday).

I wrote Mac about it but never heard back. Funny thing was, I'd briefly see the blog before the message telling me it couldn't be displayed would pop up.

Also sometimes over on Survivor and House, I'd get just the banner page with no content.

#503. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 22, 2009 3:59 PM

That Taweret picture does look a lot like our statue.
And that is a snake in front of Taweret, despite its highly questionable juxtaposition.
Perhaps it is Taweret's Dragon Cane?

Lots of great ideas popping up here lately. All sides have so much merit (who's good, who's bad, is anybody good or bad...) it's difficult to say which I'm leaning toward. Awesome stuff!

#504. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 22, 2009 4:01 PM

@504 Crispy Seaplanes observed:

>And that is a snake in front of Taweret, despite its highly questionable juxtaposition.
Perhaps it is Taweret's Dragon Cane?

Does Taweret brag about herself excessively and speak of herself in the third person?

Has Taweret kayaked down the Amazon fighing off cannibals, piranhas and sharks?

Has Taweret ever thrown steel balls at ceramic plates?

Anyone confused by this can read up on the Survivor Tocantins blog.

#505. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 22, 2009 4:14 PM

Coach could only benefit from a good scanning by Smokey.

#506. Posted by: Clementine at May 22, 2009 4:32 PM

I just realized that after reading all the reviews and posts, no one has commented or concluded what specifically was "The Incident" in the finale. Was the Incident:

a) the drill hitting the EM pocket (as Chang would suggest);
b) the stabbing of Jacob by Ben (as the term "incident" usually refers to a hostile or violent event);
c) the 316ers showing the Others that their "new" leader is Dead; or
d) something else.

#507. Posted by: welh at May 22, 2009 5:33 PM

there has been so much speculation over what season 6 may have to offer written in here,
is it conceivable that the writers could be monitoring the posts on this blog,
then changing the story accordingly.
AHH-hAA!!!

#508. Posted by: san at May 22, 2009 6:46 PM

@480 Alaïs_Longthought rejoindered:
→ 501. Cecil Rose:

>@480 Alaïs_Longthought rejoindered: The >caption says that the statue is Taweret following >the figure of Wadjet, the cobra (who is actually a >female deity & the cobra depicted on the uraeus).

So they say. That doesn't look like the head of any cobra *I've* ever seen.[g]

It also doesn't look like any...well, I'd better not go any farther w/that statement! ; >

#509. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 22, 2009 7:42 PM

Good stuff all the way around.

The Jacob touching situations can be intrepreted in many ways. Without more context, we can only guess at the significance.

Jacob holding Sayid back at the intersection could have saved his life, rather than turning him into a killer.

Jacob gave Hurley hope- reassurred him that he was not crazy or sick.

He potentially saved Locke's life after his fall from the window with his healing touch.

He encouraged Sun and Jin to not lose faith in each other or take their love for granted, and much of their story arc has been losing each other and then rebuilding their love again.

Do we really believe Jacob "turned" Jack by offering him a candy bar? Or set Sawyer on his path by consoling him after his parent's funeral, and then offering him a pen? Or by showing a young Kate kindness and compassion?

This hardly seems the path of a chaotic trickster or demonic spirit, unless one wants to believe that human character is so frail that it can be tipped in a downward direction by the smallest of gestures and interactions.

The argument that Jacob is on the wrong side of the Lost duality must also overcome an almost insurmountable obstacle- the lethal hatred of Man #2, a desire to kill so strong that he would set into motion a complicated series of events that culminated in manipulation, corpse reanimation and murder.

The most compelling argument for flipping the Jacob/Other dynamic upside down is that we have come to expect the unexpected, and so we have been trained to mistrust our instincts and to doubt the obvious.

But I would argue that in many ways, TPTB are traditionalists who love mythic storytelling. Their self-admitted reference points include Star Wars, The Stand, the Lord of the Rings and Narnia.

From the very beginning, they have described the core of this story not as science fiction or as fantasy but as a character study of redemption. After five years, we (the viewers) are emotionally invested with the fates of Jack and Kate, Sawyer and Sayid, Hurley, Sun and Jin.

Those characters must land on one side of the conflict because all epic stories demand just that before their final resolution. All of the above sources have ended with evil defeated and good triumphant, although the cost of that victory often comes with heavy sacrifice.

To end the series in a morally ambiguous (if intellectually stimulating) way? I don't believe it. Expect an emotional, bittersweet, but ultimately uplifting ending.

#510. Posted by: Mizzed at May 22, 2009 11:32 PM

Just a quick one.
We don't know where the rest of the statue is now. So what lies in the shadow of the statue doesn't necessarily have to be what lies in the shadow of the remaining foot...

#511. Posted by: Jo at May 23, 2009 8:34 AM

@511 Jo posted"

>We don't know where the rest of the statue is now. So what lies in the shadow of the statue doesn't necessarily have to be what lies in the shadow of the remaining foot...

Are we overthinking on this question? Illana accepted Richard's answer to the question, which was only some sort of identification question, so I think it was the "right" answer in Lost terms.

#512. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 23, 2009 9:48 AM

Whups, still getting the strange blurps from the blog about not being to load it. IE craziness continues.

#513. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 23, 2009 10:29 AM

Didn't TPTB liken the Jacob character to the Star Wars Emperor at one point, in the sense that he was a character who for a long time was not seen but who was a major player manipulating things nonetheless. Could they have also meant that as a hint that Jacob is evil like the Emperor? Or were they trying to throw us off and make us think he might be evil when really he's good?

#514. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 23, 2009 1:07 PM

GRAA, Mac!

I hate to break it to you, but ABC picked up the new version of V, starring none other than Elizabeth Mitchell. It is being called a "limited event series", so maybe she'll be done work on it before season 6 starts filming.

In any event, given how many episodes we had to wait for confirmation that Desmond survived the end of season 2 or Jin survived the end of last season, don't expect Jules to pop up in scene 1 next year.

#515. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 23, 2009 1:23 PM

Hi! It took a lot of time to read all your posts, I reached finally 471. I will read the rest too, they're awsome.
So, I think Jake's eye at the end of the finale reflects a mushroom cloud (I watched it with the paused DVR). So he definitely sees an explosion.

One question: in the episode with the Flame station explosion, when Patchy tells about his recruiting, he says "I was recruited 24 years ago by a magnificent man... I came on a submarine" (not exact quote). So what does this mean, that before the purge Jacob (if he is the magnificent man) had access to the Dharma's submarine? Did he infiltrate the Initiative? Was he recruiting undercover(?)
Maybe the magnificent man was Man#2, or Manto as I think I will be calling him from now on. Since Mikhail was not exactly the nicest of the chracters, and probably the two protagonists Jacob and Manto gather each an army, it is conceivable that Mikhail was in Manto's camp. Mikhail said they (Kate, Locke, Danielle, Sayid) would not be capable of "understanding" and they would not be chosen because they are flawed, angry, weak and scared, in this order. But they, excepting Danielle, were touched by Jacob, so apparently they were good enough for him.

#516. Posted by: Kindalost at May 23, 2009 2:43 PM

*****RANDOM ALERT*****

Anyone going to comic con??

***** END OF RANDOM ALERT *****

#517. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 23, 2009 2:57 PM

@488
We might like her character more if she would get off her back. her character is a selfish user that gets glimers of morality when it comes to the actions of those around her. She is a fly in the ointment. Great character!!!! weak individual !!!!!!!
------------------------------------
Well, I respect your views. You do agree that its a 'Great character'. I think Eve Lilly has done justice to Kate Austin.
I think writers have showed us that Kate has had rather traggic past, killing step dad, accidently killed boyfriend etc.
Fact is that Kate has given us some of the best scenes in past 5 seasons (My fav: Car reverses back and she jumps off and walks towards Jack in anger "We have to go back, we have to go back? Who do you think you are?...."). Much better than Julliet's character.
In my opinion Kate, alongside with Jack, Locke, Sawyer, Ben and Hurley is one of the most important charchters of LOST! and I'm sure the show producers/writers know that...

#518. Posted by: HK at May 23, 2009 3:52 PM

Mizzed: I agree with you, there is (thus far) no evidence to indicate that Jacob is anything less than a decent fellow. That his touch came to each of the 06ers at a pivotal point in their life is undeniable. He stepped in and shined light at a dark moment.

James was burying his parents. Jacob gave him a pen to finish writing. Jacob encouraged a griefstricken child to continue expressing his feelings. The written word is a safe way to vent one's anger, frustration, fear. But along came Uncle who told James to put down the pen, what's done is done, suck it up and carry on. Uncle is the one who started James on the path to becoming Sawyer.

Because yes, what's done is done if you are talking about James' parents being dead...but James was just beginning his life after the tragedy; there was nothing "done" about it. Jacob encouraged James to express himself/Uncle told him not to express it and so it sat and festered and did James more damage than the death of his parents had.

Kate stole. The grocer called her a thief and said she would pay the consequences. Jacob's actions said she was a good girl who had done a stupid thing, don't do it again. Which way would Kate think of herself?

Jack panicked during a surgery. His father gave him a nudge which infuriated Jack. Directly after the surgery Jacob handed him the candy bar and said, "Sometimes it just needs a push". Would those words resonate with Jack or not?

The essential element isn't what happens to us, it is how we cope with what happens to us. I'm thinking that's got something to do with the conflict between Jacob & TMWNN.

#519. Posted by: undaunted at May 23, 2009 6:01 PM

@ 518. Posted by: HKWell,

I respect your views. You do agree that its a 'Great character'. I think Eve Lilly has done justice to Kate Austin.
I think writers have showed us that Kate has had rather traggic past, killing step dad, accidently killed boyfriend etc.

_____________________________________

Evangeline Lilly has done a great job playing this character. Kate can't help the way she is, she is just written that way.

#520. Posted by: Steve at May 23, 2009 6:23 PM

@-520 steve.
i agree, i commented on how impressed i was with the casting on the show in an earlier post,
so many tv shows feel the need to provide a BIG NAME STAR to elevate viewing figures,
not so with lost.
i think they got it spot-on with the actors they chose.

#521. Posted by: san at May 23, 2009 8:54 PM

The last podcast of the year was pretty interesting. In it, Darlton:

- acknowledged that the compass was an intentional paradox
- clarified that the Chang-Faraday Comic Con video was not canon, and represented a story line that was axed over the course of the season
- played a game of "who's good, who's bad", in which Jacob was cited as "good", Richard Alpert as "don't know yet"
- indicated that dedicated Lost viewers would be able to piece together a pretty good theory on where was Lost was heading after the "Incident" finale, and definitely after the first episode next season.

IMO, while Darlton are often obtuse and frequently sidestep direct questions, it is not their intention to lie to their audience. I would be inclined to take their comments about Jacob and the unveiling of the basic plot at face value.

#522. Posted by: Mizzed at May 24, 2009 12:21 AM

@499 - welh you are one crazy mo-fo! Love that theory you have posted here...imagine if it's correct in the end??? GREAT post! :)

#523. Posted by: Vikki at May 24, 2009 12:47 PM

@-523. vikki
reading your post made me go back to look at 499 welh's comments,
i have to agree with you, it does sound a bit crazy but welh has it all worked out it seems,
its the kind of speculation i enjoy.

#524. Posted by: san at May 24, 2009 5:49 PM

Why Man#2 (aka, or shorter, Manto) tells Jacob on the beach "You know how much I want to kill Jacob". Why doesn't he say "You know how much I want to kill you"? What if these two characters are actually on this island for ages and they are just entertaining themselves by playing games with each other. They are like actors playing a playscript written by themselves. In a previous game, maybe they played god. In another, pharaohs and build statues. Maybe their play now is titled "Mankind and Progress". And they can still be friends, right? Because nothing is real, is just a script they write all along. In the meantime, they can share food and can still be friends after Manto declares how badly he wants to kill Jacob. And Jacob doesn't mind a bit. Come on, how much would you be upset on your friend if he would declare how badly he wants to kill your king in in a chess game?!

#525. Posted by: Kindalost at May 24, 2009 6:18 PM

In one of the episodes of the first season I think, Shannon (or Locke?) is checking a crossword game. The question was "Gilgamesh' friend", answer "Enkidu".
I think Jacob and Manto are Enkidu and Gilgamesh. These were true, great friends and went through a lot together - including many arguments.

#526. Posted by: Kindalost at May 24, 2009 6:26 PM

From Lostpedia Transcripts:

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Morning.

BLOND MAN: Mornin'.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Mind if I join you?

BLOND MAN: [Shaking his head] Please. Want some fish?

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Thank you. I just ate.

[The gray-haired man sits down not far away.]

BLOND MAN: I take it you're here 'cause of the ship.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I am. How did they find the Island?

BLOND MAN: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

BLOND MAN: You are wrong.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

BLOND MAN: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

[The gray-haired man stares at his compatriot.]

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?

BLOND MAN: Yes.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.

BLOND MAN: Well, when you do, I'll be right here.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Always nice talking to you, Jacob.

JACOB: Nice talking to you, too.
__________

@ Kindalost - 525

He doesn't say "Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill Jacob?" He says, Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill YOU?"

... I thought the rest of this scene's transcript applied to other discussions, so I decided to include it.

#527. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 24, 2009 7:49 PM

@-523. vikki
@ 524. san

There has to be some S6 climatic event at the last unseen element of the Island: The Temple.

Speculation is good for the soul.

#528. Posted by: welh at May 26, 2009 11:16 AM

→ 478. Alaïs_Longthought: "Falcons are far-seeing birds...& Horace was present at Ben's birth."

→ 499. welh: "In the Ancient Egyptian measurement system, the Eye Of Horus was used a form of fractional notation, each of the parts of the eye representing a different fraction."

Your posts on Horace/Horus sparked some connections. Long post ahead, but hey, it's the end of the season...

Point 1. Horace is a mathematician. The Eye of Horus symbol can be expressed mathematically.

The Ba gua symbol used by Dharma is used in cosmology and can also be expressed mathematically. The mysterious numbers are an equation that relates to the end of the world (Valenzetti Equation), and also act as a summoning message to the island (Hurley, Rousseau, etc.).

Who is interested in summoning people to the island, who is focused on an end solution (i.e. equation) and also happens to have the Eye of Horus prominently displayed on his tapestry?

Jacob.

Point 2. Horace, the leader of Dharma (one's righteous duty or virtuous path), is a pacifist compared to many of his more bloodthirsty colleagues. He also happens to have his house built directly over an ancient Egyptian site.

Dharma also knew where to construct the Swan and the Orchid, as well as to what kind of protective barrier would be effective vs. Smokey.

Horace ("far sight") also knew the when and where of Ben's birth, brought Ben to the island, and accepted the Sawyer group into the Dharma village.

Theory: Horace is connected beyond his Dharma affiliation, sort of a "made man".

Point 3. Locke saw Horace building "Jacob's cabin", and Horace was buried with those plans in his pocket (suggesting the purge and the cabin construction happened closely to each other).

The Eye of Horus seen on Jacob's tapestry "was intended to protect the king in the afterlife and to ward off evil. Ancient Egyptian and Near Eastern sailors would frequently paint the symbol on the bow of their vessel to ensure safe sea travel." (source: Wiki)

Horus was a son of Osiris (read: Jacob) and an enemy of Set (read: Esau/man #2).

Theory: The cabin was never Jacob's cabin, other than Jacob may have ordered it constructed. The cabin instead was a "prison" intended to hold Esau/Set/ManTwo, hence the circle of ash (protective barrier evil cannot cross) and the "Help Me" plea to whom? Locke, of course.

Why didn't Ben know that wasn't Jacob in the cabin? Because Ben was on a need to know basis only- as he had never been summoned by Jacob, he didn't know what Jacob looked or sounded like, or perhaps, even where he lived.

Richard knew Jacob wasn't in the cabin- when new Locke demanded to see Jacob, Richard made a bee-line for the statue.

While trapped, Esau/Set could still influence events outside of the cabin, either via his avatar/pet Smokey, or via someone else on the island- and perhaps this is the real reason for Widmore's banishment.

Widmore orders the purge- perhaps with Horace as the primary target. Widmore is now expelled, but his off-island presence gets the freighter team on island (and the Jack team off), plus he places Locke- and Ben- where they need everyone to be to have the old corpse switcheroo work to perfection.

All that remains is to have the circle of ash broken before corpse-Locke returns. And what better helper than Claire, who followed Christian (read: Smokey) in some sort of near death or hallucinogenic haze, and when last seen, was where? The cabin.

#529. Posted by: Mizzed at May 26, 2009 7:45 PM

@ealgumby / 492: Are you still having issues with IE and Filmfodder? Nothing has changed on the site-level, but you may be encountering a wacky ad (always enjoy chasing those down ...)

#530. Posted by: mac at May 26, 2009 10:18 PM

Mizzed@529:

Intriguing stuff. I especially like the idea that the cabin was never intended for Jacob, but was built to imprison Esau. Though I don't understand how Claire "broke" the ash line when Hurley and Locke didn't break it.

Did Richard break the ash line? Did he wait until all the pieces were in place and then "unlock" the prison to let Esau out?

Because I'm thinking Richard is in cahoots with Esau. Even prior to the murder, it really bothered me that Richard so readily permitted Ben to enter Jacob's lair along with Locke.

Esau used Ben to kill Jacob by proxie.
It's interesting that Richard is the one who gave Locke Sawyer's file which gave Locke the opportunity to kill TMFT by proxie.

Lots of stuff to think about.

#531. Posted by: undaunted at May 27, 2009 12:15 AM

"Lots of stuff to think about."
531. Posted by: undaunted

Well, friend, you better get at it . . There's only 7 and a half months left to mull it over . . . and over . . . and over . . . and . .

#532. Posted by: davidrh at May 27, 2009 8:01 AM

it strikes me as very odd when people complain Lost episodes end on an ambiguous note. but come on peeps, if you're not into shows that end with cliffhangers, you are not watching the right show. cliffhangers are so much fun because they leave room for endless plots in the future!

#533. Posted by: veronica at May 27, 2009 8:46 AM

Well, friend, you better get at it . . There's only 7 and a half months left to mull it over . . . and over . . . and over . . . and . .
→ 532. Posted by: davidrh at May 27, 2009 8:01 AM

I know...I'm not sure it's enough time.

#534. Posted by: undaunted at May 27, 2009 9:19 AM

Rambling Ideas to follow.

The game that is being played out by Jacob and Man # 2 appears to have both sides cheating. Jacob touches people thus influencing their behavior and then he then brings them to the island to supposedly react to what the island has to give, and make progress away from what man # 2 described. Man # 2 says that it always ends the same. "They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt." Then we are to believe that Man # 2 takes the form of John Locke to fight and destroy Jacob and corrupt the Others in order to make his point. How many times has this scenario played out, ending in Jacobs death. How many times has Man # 2 thwarted the will of man and bent the outcome to always end the same way?

While I observed these things, I hesitate to believe that this all there is to the conflict. If this is all there is, that means that our losties are not significant any more then then crew of the Black Rock, perhaps a crew from some Greek vessel, and maybe a band of Egyptians that all played this game before.

The thing that has changed is that our losties have been able to travel in time. This maybe Jacobs Ace in the hole.

Remember that we still don't know who Juliet shot in the second outrigger, and when in time that event occurred. We do know that right after this, they foom and it is now raining.

I think that significant changes may occur when the losties foomed in time and it was raining.

I am starting to believe that WHH has been a constant for the island up until now, or then as the case may be. Man #2 is acting within this construct, But now Jacob knows that WHH is no longer a constant. Our losties are now Jacob's fly in the ointment, and they are coming.

#535. Posted by: steve at May 27, 2009 9:23 AM

so if Ben couldn't communicate with Jacob, who told him what Jacob wanted? Did Ben fake it, bluffing his way through as The Leader? Or did Richard tell Ben what Jacob wanted? When Ben snatched Alex instead of killing her, Richard chastised Ben.

I don't remember, did Ben tell Richard that Jacob changed his mind? Or did Ben say No harm, no foul?

I have a tiny glimmer of hope that Ben is closer to Jacob than Alpert, Esau,and Widmore know. I might be wrong about that. lol

#536. Posted by: undaunted at May 27, 2009 9:42 AM

The long awaited part 2 of TheAckAttack Lost Finale review is up at:

http://www.theackattack.net/

#537. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 27, 2009 9:48 AM

@528 welh spectaculated:

>There has to be some S6 climatic event at the last unseen element of the Island: The Temple.

I'm 'spectin' the volcano (remember that classroom scene?) to play a part somewhere along the line as well.

#538. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 27, 2009 9:50 AM

@530 mac asked:

>@ealgumby / 492: Are you still having issues with IE and Filmfodder? Nothing has changed on the site-level, but you may be encountering a wacky ad (always enjoy chasing those down ...)

I got the message one time since the weekend, but it's not happening with the regularity it was last week.

#539. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 27, 2009 9:54 AM

@536. Posted by: undaunted at May 27, 2009 9:42 AM so if Ben couldn't communicate with Jacob, who told him what Jacob wanted? Did Ben fake it, bluffing his way through as The Leader? Or did Richard tell Ben what Jacob wanted? When Ben snatched Alex instead of killing her, Richard chastised Ben.

I don't remember, did Ben tell Richard that Jacob changed his mind? Or did Ben say No harm, no foul?

I have a tiny glimmer of hope that Ben is closer to Jacob than Alpert, Esau,and Widmore know. I might be wrong about that. lol

-----------------------------
In this season's final ep, Ben whined to Jacob about all the little pieces of paper, all the lists, handed down to him by Richard. So there's your answer.

Also, it wasn't Richard but Charles Widmore who scolded Ben for bringing Alex to the camp instead of killing her.
Richard actually gave Ben an approving glance, when Ben stood up to Charles about it.

#540. Posted by: Mischa at May 27, 2009 10:30 AM

@536 undaunted asked:

>So if Ben couldn't communicate with Jacob, who told him what Jacob wanted?
Did Ben fake it, bluffing his way through as The Leader? Or did Richard tell Ben what Jacob wanted?

I believe Ben reffered to "all those lists" brought to him by Richard, supposedly from Jacob.

>When Ben snatched Alex instead of killing her, Richard chastised Ben.

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I was thinking it was Widmore that chastised Ben, not Richard.

>I have a tiny glimmer of hope that Ben is closer to Jacob than Alpert, Esau,and Widmore know. I might be wrong about that. lol

Interesting to speculate about.

#541. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 27, 2009 10:33 AM

maybe my memory is totally shot, a possibility since i have recently had surgery and been on pain meds, but didn't horace tell locke that he was building the cabin for his wife and son as a get-away? i don't remember him ever saying anything about jacob.

#542. Posted by: surefoot at May 27, 2009 11:30 AM

Very nice theory about Jacob's line about progress at the end of point one. this is certainly a fresh take on the very puzzling line

#543. Posted by: Jen at May 27, 2009 11:33 AM

In response to post #22 (about Jacob telling Locke at the very end,"They're coming,") perhaps isn't so much to warn Locke as it is to say something inevitable to him. It's as if Jacob has a plan that has already been set in motion, regardless of whether he is killed. So maybe season 6 will have Man #2 in charge (possibly in Locke's body) and he will have to face whatever it is that Jacob planned for the island. just throwing it out there!

#544. Posted by: Eric at May 27, 2009 12:33 PM

@ 544 - Eric

I was under the impression that Jacob was not warning Man #2 about anything when he gasps that they are coming. It sounded more like he was saying that it was not over yet, and nothing has ended. Basically a "Stick that in your pipe and smoke it" moment.

#545. Posted by: steve at May 27, 2009 12:41 PM

@529: Mizzed - See my post #141 where I theorize that it would seem "Jacob's cabin" never contained Jacob but rather "Esau"/Man #2.

Also, I agree Richard knew Jacob was in the base of the statue the whole time. In Richard's words, "Jacob made me how I am" (or something close to that) regarding his never aging. One would think someone elevated to that level by Jacob and who apparently "guards" Jacob from everyone else (except the Leader) would always know where Jacob is residing.

#546. Posted by: LostedIt at May 27, 2009 12:50 PM

Long Post Alert with Rules of an Ancient Game included for free!

For those who are looking at Jacob/Man#2 in a "game" context:

The Eye of Horus math gives us the numbers 2,4, 8, 16, 32, 64.
Those are the same numbers on the Doubling Cube in the game of backgammon (which Locke taught Walt).

Now, the ancient Egyptians had a game similar to backgammon called Senet. I bring this up before for the last several episodes, the producers have been stressing "30 years" in the past or future. Why "30" may be a clue is in the rules of the game, as well as other symbols (drowning, good-bad, black-white, and the afterlife):

Senet: Rules of the Game

The board:
The board consists of thirty squares in three rows of ten. The pieces will move in an S-shaped pattern from the upper left to the lower right passing through all rows. There are two 'good' squares to land on in this type of Senet and one 'bad' square. The good squares, presented in the recreations as golden, are different in purpose. The square in the second row, located four from the right and five from the left, is a safety square, protecting the occupant from being bumped or taken over by the opponent. The square in the third row, located in the same vertical position, is a chance to toss the sticks again. The bad square, represented by blue, symbolizes drowning in the great waters of Nun, the primordial ocean that will one day again consume the world. It is located three from the right and six from the left. Upon landing on the drowning square, the piece is moved back to before it ever entered the board.

The sticks
Instead of dice, Senet uses sticks which are nearly flat, and have one black side and one white side. The white sides count up as numbers. One white side is one, two two and so on until four. However, if all sides come up as black, it will count as a six. To enter the board, one must either throw a four or a six, the hardest things to come up with in the game. If a four is thrown, the piece enters in the fourth square of the first row from the left. If a six is thrown, the piece enters the sixth square of that row. Anytime a six is thrown, the player immediately throws the sticks again. To exit the board, an exact number must be thrown that is the numbers of squares left before the end of the board plus one. This is called 'bearing off'. Anytime a player bears off a piece, they immediately throw the sticks again. This piece has reached the afterlife and is not dealt with again.

The pieces
One player is represented by five cones or triangles - usually green. The other player is represented by five round pieces, sometimes called reels, usually red.

Bumping or Overtaking
Whenever a player makes a throw that would cause them to land in a square occupied by the opponent, the opponent's piece is moved back to before it ever entered the board. This causes the opponent to use their fours and/or sixes to get these pieces back on the board, and it is a goal of either player to do this. A piece occupying the safety or protection square cannot be bumped. The player must move another piece. If another piece cannot be moved (there are no more maybe) the other player wins for causing a stalemate.

Winning the Game
When all five pieces owned by a player have bore off, they have won. Then all pieces advance to the end of the game and it is declared that all have entered the Afterlife successfully.

>>>> If Jacob and Man#2 are gods playing a real life game of Senet, using the Losties souls as game pieces -- with one group or character (piece) bumping off another as time goes on -- the only possible change to upset the game would be if or when the characters (pieces) become aware of their circumstances and rebel against both Jacob and Man#2. That is why the game always ends the same; the souls never ask the right questions or understand their purgatory existence. Knowledge is power. That is the loophole Man#2 fears.

#547. Posted by: welh at May 27, 2009 1:03 PM

now that our source of info has been abruptly cut-off!
(no new lost to watch)
the danger is that we will over-speculate until we enter the realms of fantasy,
but i love to read even the wildest theories.
i just have to read them all.

#548. Posted by: san at May 27, 2009 4:59 PM

welh's theory of our two beachies playing Senet reminds me of a theory I (or someone else I can't really remember who I am half the time) proposed a long time ago in a galaxy far far away...maybe it was Season 2...

If those two beachies are playing cosmic chess with our Losties as the pieces, then that might could maybe explain a small part of The Rules.

For those unfamiliar with chess, a king cannot capture (directly) the opposing king. Similarly, Ben and Widmore could not kill each other, and Jacob and TMWNN cannot kill each other. The lesser pieces do the dirty work, i.e., killing and dying. One could easily describe our Losties as chess pieces (pawns, knights, rooks, etc.).

Another Lost/game similarity is in checkers when your piece reaches your opponent's front rank they get "kinged" or "crowned" and "come back to life" more powerful than before.

I'm getting a bad feeling about all this...

#549. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 27, 2009 5:40 PM

"I'm getting a bad feeling about all this..." ransomjackson

The problem lies in the show's road map to date:
first it was a survival drama where we could just ride along with the action;
then it turned into science to explain the supernatural events we were seeing;
then it veered toward science fiction and quantum theories to explain things;
then it zoomed toward fantasy when the science and science fiction did not add up; and now the next road sign says: NEXT EXIT: SURREAL.

#550. Posted by: welh at May 27, 2009 6:19 PM

@-550 welh.
worst case scenario-
we are left no wiser when the show reaches the climax of seson 6.
i dont want to start thinking that way, although i had enjoyed british tv show "the prisoner" until the very last episode.

#551. Posted by: san at May 27, 2009 6:46 PM

I'm 'spectin' the volcano (remember that classroom scene?) to play a part somewhere along the line as well.
→ 538. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Thanks for that reminder, Cecil. Hmmm. A volcanic eruption certainly could have toppled the statue. As someone previously mentioned: where are the rest of the pieces?

On second thought, do we know for sure that it was a volcano? Could it have been mistaken for the Incident?

#552. Posted by: lovelost at May 27, 2009 7:34 PM

thank you Mischa and Cecil Rose for refreshing my memory: Widmore was the one who scolded Ben and Richard provided Ben with lists, etc from Jacob.

I'm trying to sort it all out.

Ben flat out defied Jacob and Widmore by not killing Rousseau and Alex. In spite of Ben's defiance (or perhaps because of it) Widmore is the one who gets exiled and Ben becomes Leader. And Ben becomes Leader but has never spoken with or seen Jacob. I suppose it's possible no Leader has ever spoken with or seen Jacob. It's also possible Ben spoke with and saw Jacob many times but didn't know it was Jacob.

I find it very hard to believe that the hotheaded obnoxious snot which was Widmore in 1954 was "chosen" by Jacob to be a leader.

#553. Posted by: undaunted at May 27, 2009 11:33 PM

@553 Undaunted: good point about leaders not meeting Jacob. When Richard brings wounded mini-Ben to the camp, Widmore is not happy. Richard then claims that it is Jacob's wish and Charles reluctantly accepts this. That gave me the feeling that Widmore, like Ben later, only dealt with Richard, not directly with Jacob.

#554. Posted by: Mischa at May 28, 2009 11:47 AM

@530/mac: "Are you still having issues with IE and Filmfodder? Nothing has changed on the site-level, but you may be encountering a wacky ad (always enjoy chasing those down ...)"

No problems this week, but haven't had much time to beat it up trying either ... figured it was probably a poorly-tested ad, now either fixed or pulled from rotation ...

#555. Posted by: ealgumby at May 28, 2009 3:55 PM

I haven't quite gotten through all the posts, but I just had a thought I hadn't seen anywhere. I know most (maybe all) people who think the bomb went off and prevented the incident and the need for the button, think that would mean that the crash would never take place, but I am not totally sure that would be the case.

Back in season 1 the pilot said they were way off course before they crashed, didn't he? That couldn't have been because of Desmond not pushing the button, that was just what cause the plane to break up and crash.

With the opening of The Incident and Jacob apparently bring a ship (mabye the Black Rock) to the Island, I have wondered if he wasn't somehow the cause for them being off course because he was working his magic to bring the plane there. So I am not sure that stopping the incident will keep the plane from ending up on the Island, though it would change some of the things that happened after they got there.

The thought I just had was maybe Man #2 had something to do with Desmond not pushing the button, maybe he thought he could prevent the plane from coming since he didn't seem to like Jacob's little games he was playing. I don't know it probably isn't what happened, but it isn't any crazier than some other ideas and probably won't be any crazier than what actually ends up happening.

#556. Posted by: Sue at May 28, 2009 4:02 PM

@556 Sue mused:

>...I know most (maybe all) people who think the bomb went off ...

There was some question whether the fade-to-white ending meant the bomb had gone off, but in the ABC recap of "The Incident", the writeup concludes:

"At the bottom of the drill shaft, Juliet lies in a shallow pool of water. She is critically hurt but somehow still alive. She looks around and sees the unexploded nuclear bomb off to the side. She drags herself over to it, inch by painful inch, and picks up a rock. She gathers herself and starts pounding on the nose of the cylinder. BAM! BAM! Using everything she's got -- she hits it one more time and -- WAAA-BOOM! The cavern flashes white, the ***noise of the explosion*** washes away as the screen washes out -- "

(Emphasis added)

So I guess as far as ABC is concerened,
1) The statue is Tawaret
2) The bomb went off

Of course we don't know for sure that it was an *atomic* explosion. Maybe it was just the high explosive jacket around the plutonium core that exploded, but the bomb was too damaged to create a fission reaction.


Now, suppose, just to suppose, that WHH is really true. it would mean:

The explosion + hypermagnetic anomaly *was* the incident.

The anomaly is still there but contaminated with a few pounds of lethal plutonium that mught, say requre walling off behind a big mass of concrete. An somebady still has to push that button.

Juliet is dead and stays dead.

Jack, Sawyer, Chang, Miles, Jin, Kate, probably survive, maybe injured, maybe contaminated, depending on whether the shaft was closed by the anomaly in time to prevent spread of radioactive contamination.

Sayid - who knows? - probably but not certainly dead.

Jacob stays dead.

Locke stays dead.

Jin and Sun - still separated by 30 years.

Ben, psychologically damaged.

"Esau" - free to do what?

Illana and the Shadow gang + Frank - opposed to "Esau"?

Claire - unknown?

Christian - unknown, but maybe/probably an apparition of "Esau" no longer needed.

Richard and Others - coming down on what side? Anti-"Esau" probably?

So given all these things - how would you write season 6?

#557. Posted by: Cecil at May 28, 2009 4:54 PM


@557 Cecil asked "how would you write season 6?"

S6E1 would open with a close-up of Jacob's eye, with flames reflecting in it, as he whispers while being stabbed, "They're coming . . ."

Outside, the Others are shaken by the rumbling of the mountain above the statue area. The top ridge explodes, and lava begins to run down the side through a gray cloud of sulfur ash.

Then, through the gray ash appears the black silhouette of a man. Then another. Then another.

New Locke emerges from the statue to see his followers looking fearful as they gaze at the mountain top. He turns and looks at the volcanic ridge: there are a dozen silhouettes on the smoking ridge, with flames lapping at their feet. Suddenly, from these black shadows, they screech a call like a million sets of claws across a chalkboard. Then, during their call, they sprout huge sets of satanic wings.

Quick close up of New Locke wincing; "Damn, they are coming."

Cut: to LOST logo.

#558. Posted by: welh at May 28, 2009 5:32 PM

Baseless, unfinished speculation her about the opening of S6.

Lockesau (L) and Ben step out of the temple, planning to tell everyone that Jacob has decided to retire and that he has left it to the Others to decide who will lead them. Outside, he finds guns drawn at him by Others/Ajirans. Ilana upfront. Locke's body is presented to him and an explanation demanded. He acts surprised at first, claiming that he 'just woke up' on the Island, after having been dead for a while. Ilana and co are not convinced. She states that Jacob himself sent her here to expose L, and prevent him from killing Jacob. She wants to march L back into the foot at gunpoint. L just smiles, says to the Others that he will be back and that those who cherish and want to protect the Island, are welcome to join him when he returns. Then he vanishes into thin air, leaving everyone puzzled. Ben weazles his way out of getting killed, claiming it was L who killed Jacob, acting out how he tried to stop him. Warning them that L is probably headed for the temple. He is taken captive but kept alive, on Richard's wish. The group heads for the temple, although some Others choose to distance themselves from the group.

Meanwhile, L has moved to the Swan site, where he knows that the Lostees will foom to soon. When they do, after their bewilderment somewhat settles down, he meets them, acting all Locke-like, making a big impression on them, telling them lies, convincing them to now follow his lead. He doesn't understand that this is part of Jacob's plan, who knows that these people, hand picked by himself, will eventually cause L's downfall.

He leads them to the temple. Then... okay I'm stuck. Ah well, it's bedtime anyway :)

#559. Posted by: Mischa at May 28, 2009 6:02 PM

Is it just me or does it seem like even though Richard designates she "leader" job to someone else, he is, ultimately, the leader.

I know they have said that he's the "advisor" and stuff, but so far it seems like he indirectly makes the ultimate decision.

Thoughts?
_____

I haven't encountered any problems with IE on this blog, but whenever I try to go over to Cecil's House blog, it spazzes and shuts down my window.

#560. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 28, 2009 6:29 PM

@560 ilovebenjaminlinusxx mentioned:

>I haven't encountered any problems with IE on this blog, but whenever I try to go over to Cecil's House blog, it spazzes and shuts down my window.

No problems from here with either House or Survivor blogs, although I did have a few last week.

???mac???

#561. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 28, 2009 7:47 PM

I'm sorry that I have not been able to read all of the posts yet, but I made a sick observation and I'm not sure if it's been brought up. I noticed that Vincent is actually a male in this episode. I know Vincent/Madison was a female originally.

#562. Posted by: marlisa at May 28, 2009 8:58 PM

It's got to be a weird ad. If it happens again (and you don't mind), can you drop me a line directly and tell me the ads you see? That'll help me zero in on the issue.

#563. Posted by: mac at May 28, 2009 9:37 PM

ilovebenjaminlinusxx @527 - Thanks, ilovebenjaminlinusxx. I got it wrong.
But still, you know, once a sticky ideea... always a sticky idea. I still think they are not real enemies, they don't truly want to kill each other (well, at least Man#2-Manto to kill Jacob) as in killing, murder, end of life, no more, dead, ashes scattered... I still think Manto wants to kill the ideea that Jacob represents (even though right now it lookes like ashes scattered, brrr! I don't like it!), like in you're wrong, small, insignifiant, I'll be the leader now - in the meantime you can go back to fishing and waving...

#564. Posted by: Kindalost at May 28, 2009 9:47 PM

While noodling the potential relationship between Jacob and Horace/Horus, it occurred to me that the numbers sequence(4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42) is made up of six values.

While not addressed in the show, the numbers were explained in the Lost Experience and confirmed by Darlton in interviews as the "Valenzetti Equation".

(from Lostpedia):

"These six numbers are the core values of the Valenzetti Equation, a mathematical formula designed to predict the end of humanity. The numbers in actuality are said to represent human and environmental factors in the equation (given numerical form), though their precise meaning is uncertain. One purpose of the DHARMA Initiative was to change the factors leading to humanity's demise, which will be indicated by an alteration in at least one of the human/environmental factors - i.e. the numbers."

In the "Variable", Faraday described people as the variables in destiny's equation. My theory is that Dharma was unable to solve the equation because they failed to realize that the six numbers actually represent six people who must play particular roles to save the world.

There were six people in Rousseau's science team. There was the Oceanic 6, and when they returned on Ajira there was again six, with Ben displacing Aaron.

Until they were reunited with Locke, six people traveled through time together during the flashes (Jin, Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, Faraday and Charlotte).

Jacob (the weaver of destiny) is bringing people to the island in an effort to identify the proper variables, sort of like a safecracker trying to find the right combination.

Jacob's message to Hurley was also one of free will- the final variables in the equation will be filled by people who accept their destiny and the roles they have been selected to play.

Possibly, some people are also "constants"- their role in the equation can not change. Desmond was described as a constant by Faraday, and Hawking essentially told him the same thing.

Perhaps in a stroke of irony, Faraday was also a constant- he was unable to break from his predestined path of being killed by his mother.

Final thought- what if Jacob's only role is to attempt to put the right people in the right place, but otherwise he has no involvement in the affairs of the island. He has selected Richard to lead these people until the equation is solved, which explains the gift of immortality.

This may also explain why the leaders of the Others may never have actually seen Jacob for themselves. Given how violent the Others/Hostiles are, how they traditionally live in very simple tribal fashion, and how they seem to keep selecting highly flawed leaders, their day to day activities may actually be influenced not by Jacob, but by Esau/Set/ManTwo.

In an effort to prevent the equation from being solved, ManTwo is constantly disrupting the "game" and moving the pieces around.

Richard was extremely reluctant to face Jacob at the statue. Is it possible that at some point Richard was "turned", and that he now follows orders from the opposing side?

#565. Posted by: Mizzed at May 28, 2009 11:07 PM

@559: Mischa - Awesome storyline. I think you've nailed the character traits to a 'T'. Don't know what will happen next season but I definitely find yours believable. Certainly they're going to be taking the first episode or two to set up a season-long storyline, one of the reasons I like your description. It really does set up things for a season-long conflict where certain people are pulled in to certain sides, sides they likely are going to find out later to be the wrong side (or more precisely, not the side they want to be on).

The one thing I'm not sure would happen from your story is that of "L" disappearing into thin air. I don't recall that ever happening in any Lost episode so far (other than the Losties "fooming" from time period to time period, so perhaps that alone sets precedence). Then again, after five seasons I'm sure I've forgotten more than I remember at this point. The rest of it, though, I could completely believe that to be a description of how the season premier could go.

Anyone know if/when it would be announce who the cast members for next year are set to be? They'll probably keep it under wraps to keep us guessing about the storyline. If we knew for sure that the person who plays Juliet or Sayid or Walt isn't coming back it could at least provide some clue.

#566. Posted by: LostedIt at May 29, 2009 9:52 AM

the writers have dangled a few characters in front of our noses that we may consider to be the key to the whole lost story,
desmond
locke
jacob
man #2
hurley
my guess is.... none of the above,
i had toyed with the theory that all of this could be hurley having some kind of delusional episode during his vacation to the santa rosa mental health institute,
but nahh... no way,
i think someone whom we had considered to be a very minor cog in the lost saga will show themselve in season 6 to be more important than we thought.

#567. Posted by: san at May 29, 2009 7:07 PM

@ san - 567
I'm thinking it's Paulikki and their diamonds. =]

#568. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 29, 2009 10:12 PM

567. Posted by: san
possible leader?

I was thinking back to when the show first started and I believe some of the comments made at the time were that Jack was only temporary but the network insisted that he stay. So, I've discounted any importance to Jack. They also wanted the island to be part of the mystery. So once again I don't focus so much on the mysteries of the island. Next, the story was to be about a strong female leader. I have watched over the years to see how Kate or Juliet developed their leadership skills but I think the sleeper in all this is Sun. She started out as an independent young lady that became very docile in her marriage. But the fact that she approached Widmore and her father with such self-confidence I think her role will become very important. I also think Ilana and crew are working for her. She has spent a lot of time trying to find Ben and she knows Penny. Maybe she got some of her info from her. It would have been easy for her to know Sayid's whereabouts and to get her crew on that plane.

Just my thoughts - today!!

#569. Posted by: pebspostal at May 29, 2009 10:43 PM

Awesome news!!!

It looks like Lost is going to have a spin-off!

http://tinyurl.com/ko5u5x

Can't wait!!! ;)

#570. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2009 11:29 PM

Best quote ever....

"Brrrrr, chk-chk-chk-chk, muuuuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrhhh"!!!!!!

*sigh*

Is it S6 time yet? :(

#571. Posted by: shikotee at May 29, 2009 11:37 PM

sooo... i was thinking about locke's body.

locke's body coming back to the island was a major part of the con. ben had to believe that locke had resurrected in order to be properly in awe of him to believably follow him. ben wouldn't have believed that locke was resurrected without the body making it back to the island. and why did the body make it back to the island?

eloise.
she insisted that they "recreate" the first crash. if not for eloise, it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to bring back the body.

so who is eloise working for? Man #2? it certainly fit his purposes that the body made it back to the island.

but could eloise be working for jacob instead? could jacob be planning a larger con on man#2, where he knows ben will stab him and yet he won't die? jacob certainly seemed to be inciting ben's anger, almost wanting him to stab him. perhaps jacob saw the possible futures and has something up his sleeves that we haven't guessed.

perhaps he set up man#2 by bringing locke's body back. after all, how could the statue people know to bring the body with them to jacob unless jacob knew that would happen ahead of time?

#572. Posted by: klughs at May 30, 2009 12:17 AM

Concerning shikotee's post #570 - THE ONION is worth a look every week. It is a very funny, and many times irreverent look at news(?). I’m sure I put it on my list several months ago of great websites to visit during the dry months ahead . . .

Thanks for sharing it.

So . . it’s been a few weeks. How’s everyone’s withdrawal pains? I had two root canals. And joined facebook. Both have helped divert my attention from the void on Wednesday evenings . . .

Now if I could just remember to shave and shower once in a while. People are mistaking me for a homeless guy . . . or Joaquin Phoenix . . .

It's beginning to embarrass the wife.

#573. Posted by: davidrh at May 30, 2009 6:44 AM

klugh: I like your idea that the reason Locke had to be dead was so Ben would be properly awed (and jealous enough to murder)when Locke was resurrected. I also like your observation that Eloise was the one behind the dead Locke and bring the body back thing.

So it's looking like it is Esau, Widmore, Eloise vs Jacob and the statuettes.

I think Richard shifts with whoever he perceives to be the Power. I think he is with Esau at this time. However, if it turns out that Jacob still wields power, I think we will see Richard shift alligence back to Jacob.

I think Richard personally supports Esau's vision, rather than Jacob's vision, but he will align himself with the person in power, regardless of his personal feelings.

#574. Posted by: undaunted at May 30, 2009 10:55 AM

I'm only up to post 275 and still no one has mentioned what i've been thinking since i saw it on the last episode. When the Ajirans are hawaii five o-ing it onto the island with Lapidus, #1 Ajiran asks why they took him along? and says"you dont think he's a candidate do you?".....candidate for WHAT? someone, anyone please clarify.

If smokey CAN manifest itself as anyone who has died on the island, does that mean that Claire really IS dead?

What part if any will Walt, AAron and Desmond and Penny's filipino baby have in all of this?(he is of course the grandson of Charles Widmore)

#575. Posted by: marls at May 30, 2009 4:28 PM

What part if any will Walt, AAron and Desmond and Penny's filipino baby . . .


"filipino baby!?!?"

Have I been watching the same show?

#576. Posted by: davidrh at May 30, 2009 10:23 PM

I got a pretty good LMAO from #575 and davidrh's response to that in the following post #576.

Wow, I can't stop laughing. Haha!

That was a definite "WTF" moment.

#577. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 31, 2009 12:24 AM

Re Lost spinoff in the Onion:

I Dream of Jinny?

#578. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 31, 2009 7:40 AM

The EYE at the end of S5 season finale is Jack's... same as the eye from S1E1-pilot.

I dont think Juliet detonated JugHead Jr.
I think the ending flash is from Richard taking the preggers Ellie to the Orchid and
activating the FDW to get her off the Island, (and transporting the 1977 Losties to
the 2007 FOOT... avoiding Nuking the Island in 1977 till Desmond turns the fail-safe
key) we know she left the Island probably in 1977 but that does not mean she arrived
in the Tunisian Exit in 1977.

Here's a little java-like map that shows the exact opposite of points on earth.
(click and drag the map and see where the 2 pinpoints umm... point)

http://tinyurl.com/qfjph


Tunisia falls right opposite the NZ dent in the international dateline.

I think I heard from Richard or in the Lamp-post that the Island is/was ALWAYS moving...
so I think the FDW is just a gear in the giant Island/Planetary/Universal clock.
It was not always frozen, keeping time and the island stationary or in synch with
the rest of the planet.

I think since the Island was always moving that it may have at one time or originally
come from the Mediteranean Sea and got it's Egyptian/Greek/Latin Temples, Statue and
tunnels from inhabitants that found the island there. "Richard you have to move the
Island, Santorini is going to erupt"
"Richard you have to move the Island Krakatoa: East of Java (1969) is going to erupt"


Dharma Ba-Gua Logo

http://tinyurl.com/97l8h

Four of the eight symbols are on the S Korean flag... explains why Jin and Sun are in the story.

Earth
Thunder
Fire
Lake
Mountain
Water
Wind
Heaven

Also 8 spokes on the FDW.

So if Each TV season represents a symbol.. that means there will be 2 sequel movies after the
series ends next season.

Did anyone else notice the 5 or 6 black birds flying by the statue's head towards the Black Rock?

And finally... Jacob/Anti-Jacob/Smokey?
Father/Son/Holy Spirit?

More another time.

#579. Posted by: CoyoteDean at May 31, 2009 1:15 PM

sigh... this forum's kinda emptying out, huh? whatever will i do with myself?

so i had another thought about dead bodies.
Remember back in season one how jack's father's body disappeared and the casket was empty? and jack was seeing "hallucinations" of his father on the beach and in the jungle?
And then remember back in season three how Ecko's brother's body disappeared from the plane right when Ecko started seeing visions of his brother?

and I think it's generally agreed that the visions of jack's dad and of ecko's brother were actually a product of the smoke monster. And I personally think the smoke monster is the anti-jacob character.

Soooooooo.... the question to ponder is.... Why hasn't locke's body disappeared???

Have the writers just forgotten their own mythology? Is locke's 'resurrection' different than yemi's and christian's? Why did the other bodies disappear???

#580. Posted by: klughs at May 31, 2009 2:48 PM

@578: Scooby-Dude - I heard some of the Lost actors are considering doing commercials to while away the months. Jack is already pegged to do...wait for it....Breathe Right strips!

Ohhhhh! And ilovebenjaminlinusxx falls out of her chair...

Thank you, I'll be here all week...

#581. Posted by: LostedIt at June 1, 2009 9:03 AM

ddddlump-boom-ching . . .

#582. Posted by: davidrh at June 1, 2009 11:53 AM

@572: klughs - Come to think of it, if Eloise was basing so much of what she did on the journal that Farraday had kept, how DID she know that they had to bring a dead Locke back to the island, or for that matter that they needed to re-create the arrangements on Oceanic flight 815 when they boarded Ajira flight 316? Either she has a LOT more access to information that we've been shown or... actually, I don't have an "or". Anyone

@580: klughs (hmm, I'm replying to two of your posts in a row!) - I don't recall it being "generally agreed" that Jack's dad is a manifestation of the smoke monster. Eko's brother, yes, although I even qualify that one as a "probably" given that we now know "Esau"/Man #2 can do the same thing, and probably Jacob as well. But Christian? I truly have no idea any more who/what his story is. For that matter, is he a manifestation at all given that his body is technically the only one that has yet to be found. If he is a manifestation, he could be from any one of the three individual "entities" - "Esau"/Man #2, Jacob, or Smokey (I'm counting him as an "entity" for now for lack of a better term).

#583. Posted by: LostedIt at June 1, 2009 12:26 PM

I heard over the weekend that the TPTB stated that we (the fans) have enough information to solve the mysteries of the Island. Really?

And that the series will end "in a cool way." Really? The last time I heard that was from Hollywood insiders who thought the Sopranos ended in a cool way.

#584. Posted by: welh at June 1, 2009 12:46 PM

565. Posted by: Mizzed

I like this. I've been trying to come up with a similar theory around the numbers/changing fate/WHH since I heard that one of the episodes was called The Variable. I like the idea that the O6 are the variables and some characters are constants in some sort of a real-life Valenzetti equation. I'm not sure I agree with your ideas on how Jacob, the Others' Leader and "Esau" fit in, but who knows?

A mathematical explanation might be a bit much for the regular viewer though, so I wouldn't be surprised to see this in a podcast or some other piece of "off-TV" canon for geekier fans like us, with the explanation on the show being more abstract.

#585. Posted by: bouds at June 1, 2009 1:47 PM

ABC must be planning a really smasheroo finale "Lost Untangled". They've been working on it for weeks, and say it'll be up on the ABC site on Wednesday, June 3.

If you haven't been watching these little stop-motion animation vignettes, you're missing a treat.

Would that they would go back and produce them back to the first ep.

#586. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 1, 2009 7:08 PM

@-586 cecil
i must admit to being a bit of a purist when it comes to watching most tv shows.
i hate when they try to show us what excitement awaits us in the next episode or the new season.
the reason to watch the next episode for me is based on the episode i just watched,
not these spoiler trailers they now stick right on the end of some shows.
NOT A RANT,
just an observation on how TPTB seem so desperate for us to continue to watch what they have to offer.

#587. Posted by: san at June 1, 2009 7:54 PM

Hmmm... 'tis the month of June... time for a Random Topic Thread for our very last Hiatus?

Anyway, this made me think fondly of you all @ 1min 24secs

tinyurl.com/cbfs87

#588. Posted by: Clementine at June 1, 2009 8:01 PM

I don't think Smokey manifests as people; I think he is your run of the mill smoke monster.

I think Esau or Jacob manifested a couple of times as Vincent, maybe the first time we saw Vincent, when Jack woke up after 815 fell out of the sky.

#589. Posted by: undaunted at June 1, 2009 9:01 PM

@588 Clemintine
The gauntlet has been slapped. And the hiatus doldrums are here. Can we name all 100 shows??

I haven't a better idea how to approach this, but here is my idea:

movie lines at youtube:
tinyurl.com/cbfs87

a spreadsheet at google:
tinyurl.com/movielines

I can't share it except with email address, so send input to mtncbn at gmail com and I will update.

Anybody got a better way to collaborate on something like this?

#590. Posted by: mtncbn at June 1, 2009 10:16 PM

@590
If you have lots of entries, just email me and I'll add you to editing list of spreadsheet.

#591. Posted by: mtncbn at June 1, 2009 10:20 PM

@587 san:

But the "Lost Untangled" are not trailers for the next ep. They're a brief review of the just past ep, using models, action figures, and cutout photos of the Lost characters.

That, however, doesn't begin to describe it. They take a point of view about the characters, and, for instance, satirize Jack's panicking over every situation - Jack's response to almost any new developement is a whiney "Wha-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-t?"

Done with an affectionate and wry humor, they at the same time embrace and satirize the story, and a fan's reaction to it. Give them a try, at:

http://tinyurl.com/avukt4


#592. Posted by: Cecil at June 2, 2009 9:43 AM

@589: undaunted postulated "I think he is your run of the mill smoke monster."

Classic... Would love to see what an "extraordinary" smoke monster would look like. Maybe like the smoke/fire in the movie "Backdraft"? How about the entity from "The Abyss" that could basically utilize whatever element was conveniently available as its form (most memorably the sea water)? Does that one count? I'm sure there's a cajillion (that's a really big number ;) ) other instances we can all come up with.

#593. Posted by: LostedIt at June 2, 2009 9:51 AM

@-592 cecil
thank you for the info RE:lost untangled,
i misunderstood what this was & will check it out,
i am just spoiler-phobic and wary of clicking on links (just in case).
thanks again.

#594. Posted by: san at June 2, 2009 2:21 PM

hey...
is there somebody know " NKOTB"
author wrote "maybe Jacob just really loves NKOTB"..

let me know.

#595. Posted by: uthline.net at June 2, 2009 5:48 PM

@ 589 "I don't think Smokey manifests as people; I think he is your run of the mill smoke monster.

I think Esau or Jacob manifested a couple of times as Vincent, maybe the first time we saw Vincent, when Jack woke up after 815 fell out of the sky."

back in season 3 tptb pretty much confirmed for us in the podcasts that the vision of yemi ecko saw right before being smashed by the smoke monster was in fact another manifestation of the smoke monster. Which makes sense with the dialog of the episode: when ecko refuses to confess and pleads with his brother that he did his best, Yemi says with sudden contempt "You speak to me as if i am your brother." yemi disappears. cue smoke monster stage right, ecko dies.

Since yemi's vision is confirmed by tptb as being smoke monster, it makes sense to me that most other visions of dead people are probably products of the smoke monster too. Unless the island has two methods of making visions of dead people appear... but really, the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

so by that reasoning it would appear that the smoke monster has also guest starred as christian shepard, ben's mother, john locke, possibly claire, alex (to ben in smoke monster cave).... anyone think of anyone i'm missing?

And SOOOO... if the smoke monster is appearing as NOTjohn locke, and we know NOTjohn Locke is actually manTwo, then we can reason that the smoke monster is in fact manTwo.

And if you look at the actions of the dead characters that have appeared, their actions do in fact appear to be in alignment with manTwo... esp alex and christian shepard.

so there you have it. my argument that the smoke monster is in fact NOT just a run of the mill smoke monster :)

#596. Posted by: klughs at June 2, 2009 6:03 PM

@595 uthline.net asked:

>hey...
is there somebody know " NKOTB"
author wrote "maybe Jacob just really loves NKOTB"..

<let me know.

NKOTB = New Kids On The Block

A pop boy-band on young Kate's lunch box.

#597. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2009 6:19 PM

@596 klughs asked:

>so by that reasoning it would appear that the smoke monster has also guest starred as christian shepard, ben's mother, john locke, possibly claire, alex (to ben in smoke monster cave).... anyone think of anyone i'm missing?

Possibly Kate's horse, possibly any off-island manifestation of Jacob, possibly Hurley's Dave, possibly (controversial) Locke's Dad, possibly some manifestations of Walt, Nikki's spider,
there was some specualtion that the Abbadon who appeared to Hurley in the Mental Hospital was the smoke monster.

#598. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 2, 2009 6:31 PM

klughs@596: I stand corrected! If TPTB say Smokey was Yemi...then I guess Smokey falls into the sub-category of Smoke Monsters That Manifest as People.

#599. Posted by: undaunted at June 2, 2009 7:31 PM

twitchy dan lives!
he must have foomed to the d-day landings
i just spotted him in saving private ryan!

#600. Posted by: san at June 2, 2009 8:17 PM

Wow! Cuz 4 years after Ryan, Jeremy Davies was hanging out with Kelvin and the rest of the space station crew in Clooney's WEAK remake of Solaris.

#601. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at June 2, 2009 8:33 PM

@ LostedIt - 581
"Jack is already pegged to do...wait for it....Breathe Right strips!

Ohhhhh! And ilovebenjaminlinusxx falls out of her chair..."

I really did fall out of my chair! =]

#602. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 2, 2009 10:12 PM

@590 movie lines
movie lines at youtube:
tinyurl.com/cbfs87

a spreadsheet at google:
tinyurl.com/movielines

This has almost been aced by ealgumby! 1 unknown and a few question marks. Who can name #22? Cecil, are you up to it?

#603. Posted by: mtncbn at June 2, 2009 10:55 PM

the actor in #22 is Anthony Michael Hall... is that quote from 16 candles? it's been too long since i saw it last...

#604. Posted by: klughs at June 3, 2009 12:07 AM

@603 mtncbn challenged:

>Who can name #22? Cecil, are you up to it?

No time to go back and look.

#605. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 3, 2009 9:26 AM

movie lines

movie lines at youtube:
tinyurl.com/cbfs87

a spreadsheet at google:
tinyurl.com/movielines

Update to 29 and 100 by Alaïs_Longthought. Not sure if there for sures, or unsures, so put them in the next column.

#606. Posted by: mtncbn at June 3, 2009 10:03 AM

If you believe that the smoke monster can manifest itself into anyone (Christian, Yemi, Vincent, et al), or multiples as Christian and Claire were in the cabin together, then the island is merely an illusion. Then as a projection of reality, the writers can merely sweep the mysteries under the rug with a Star Trek "The Cage" type reveal at the end. That would be disappointing.

#607. Posted by: welh at June 3, 2009 10:24 AM

@606/mtncbn: "Update to 29 and 100 by Alaïs_Longthought"

Ack ... and as a huge LOTR fan, she'll be appalled with me for sloppily passing off "Twin Towers" to you, rather than "The Two Towers" ... sorry bout that!

#608. Posted by: ealgumby at June 3, 2009 10:25 AM

@603-5

22 is probably Wierd Science

#609. Posted by: CoyoteDean at June 3, 2009 10:55 AM

→ 606. mtncbn: On 29: It's definitely The Two Towers, not The Return of the King...it's the scene where Gollum is trying to sneak up on Frodo & Sam in the Emyn Muil. Just to show how geeky I am, I've been to that location. On 100: Still not 100% sure if it's Rocky or Rocky II, but according to the plot synopses I've been reading, the fight in Rocky was a draw, so I don't think Rocky would have been holding up the championship belt unless he actually beat Apollo Creed.

608. ealgumby: As far as misstating the title of The Two Towers—I'll have to think up a suitable punishment for you... ; > ; > ; >

#610. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at June 3, 2009 11:06 AM

Don't know if anyone has noticed any similarities between Land of the Lost and Lost?

* The leader of the Sleestaks was played by an actor named Jon Locke.

* In one of the first season episodes, it suggested that the Marshall family acutally died when going over the waterfall and are not really alive - yest somehow are in this parallel place.

* They and others seem to be able to travel back and forth between the "land of the lost" and where they came from.

* The Sleestaks have been around forever but it appears in the past they used to be good but are now somewhat evil and violent.

Food for thought . . .

#611. Posted by: bc at June 3, 2009 11:08 AM

movie lines

fixed 29 = The Two Towers per 610 Alaïs_Longthought, also changed 100 to Rocky II

22 - probably Weird Science, per 609 CoyoteDean
with added confirmation by 604 klughs as to lead character

#612. Posted by: mtncbn at June 3, 2009 12:23 PM

movie lines

The only ?'s left on the list are 12, 22, 27

I'm obviously not much of a movie watcher, lots of titles I'd never heard of.

What is #85, 300', can't find it on imdb

#613. Posted by: mtncbn at June 3, 2009 12:31 PM

Can you post the quotes?

Can't get to the site here at work (lousy inglorious IT basterds).

#614. Posted by: ransomjackson at June 3, 2009 2:01 PM

@613: mtncbn - It's not 300', just 300.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416449/

#615. Posted by: LostedIt at June 3, 2009 5:20 PM

@607 "...the writers can merely sweep the mysteries under the rug with a Star Trek "The Cage" type reveal at the end. That would be disappointing."


what was the star trek "the cage" type reveal?

#616. Posted by: klughs at June 3, 2009 7:37 PM

@615 LostedIt
thanks

#617. Posted by: mtncbn at June 3, 2009 7:46 PM

I'm leaning toward...

12. Dr. Strangelove
27. Evil Dead

#618. Posted by: ransomjackson at June 3, 2009 10:32 PM

Wow, you people are serious movie buffs!

#12 The Sandlot
tinyurl.com/67pvz3

#22 Weird Science
tinyurl.com/5lcv8t

#27 Army of Darkness (Evil Dead III)
tinyurl.com/o2d76o

And now I need to go watch Young Frankenstein for the 5 millionth time!

:)

Nice job, mtncbn!


#619. Posted by: Clementine at June 3, 2009 11:58 PM

Was it just me or did Chang seem 'fustrated' when he was talking about 'the incident' in the Swan Orientation film?

They probably all blame Radsinsky.

I still think that's how he ends up pushing the botton. It was his fault, so he had to push it.

As I said in the "follow the leader" recap, "He's the one that forced them into the mess, so he's the one that was forced to clean it up."

Karma's a bitch. =]

#620. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at June 4, 2009 8:29 AM

good morning all.....mizzed you are on fire!!!! with all of your theories. i cant decide which one i like the best, they all sound plausible. :) keep them coming!

#621. Posted by: tiffani at June 4, 2009 9:13 AM

movie lines
That's a wrap
619 Clementine
12-The Sandlot
22-Weird Science
27-Army of Darkness (Evil Dead III)
Those seem pretty authoritative. Thanks
No more question marks!
It's going to be a long time till Season 6..

#622. Posted by: mtncbn at June 4, 2009 10:02 AM

Promises, promises. The Finale "Lost Untangled" is NOT up on the ABC website, even though a promo for it labeled 'June 3' is still showing there.

I'll post back when it turns up.

In the meantime Ack has resumed posting her "Daily Dose of Lost" (lines from other movies/shows that provoke a Lost image).

#623. Posted by: Cecil at June 4, 2009 4:31 PM

i checked out the untangled thing a few days ago for the first time,
i found it hard to stop watching all of them,
i look forward to the final one.

#624. Posted by: san at June 4, 2009 4:50 PM

@624 san:

wwwwwwhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaAAAAAAaTTTTTTTT!?

#625. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 4, 2009 6:13 PM

@-625 cecil
you pointed me in the direction of ack & untangled,
for that san is eternally grateful,
i have so much back stuff to watch on these sites,
7 months will be a breeze.

#626. Posted by: san at June 4, 2009 6:39 PM

@626 San:

If you have any trouble filling uup the time, check out TWOP:

Www.televisionwithoutpity.com/show/lost/

After you've fininshed all the recaps, try the forums. Not of the FilmFodder quallity, but close, and the VOLUME!

#627. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 5, 2009 5:59 PM

@-627 cecil
much appreciated

#628. Posted by: san at June 5, 2009 6:48 PM

To the folks who were encountering an issue with IE ... I *think* I may have fixed it (the Google Friend Connect box doesn't play nice with IE -- this, sadly, is a documented glitch).

However, if you continue to run into problems please drop me a line directly. I really appreciate the help!

(Special thanks go out to Cecil and ealgumby for their troubleshooting assistance!)

#629. Posted by: mac at June 5, 2009 10:32 PM

The finale episode of "Lost Untangled" is finally up. It's a musical!

abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=lostuntangled

#630. Posted by: Cecil Rose at June 8, 2009 7:33 PM

WOW.
The finale was EXTORDINARY.
personally im in denial that season 6 is last season. I think that man#2 is smokey and smokey is New Locke or dead locke is smokey becuase smokey wants locke to really be killed becuase then it would be easy to kill the rest of the people. If jacob is really dead what will happen to the island will someone new take control such as Richard or Christian maybe even Claire?!
Was the burst of light at the end a time travel or explosion or elctromagnetic thingy? What if Jack somehow does "restart" everything? What if jack made it so that the hatch doesnt make 815(becuase it isnt there) crash but (like with 316) it still crashes anyway? Then everything would be diffrent! Would Dharma still be there somehow? Would desmond be there?
???????
what is Richards ultimate goal?
Also who is higher "Ranked" Christian or Richard, which one has more say about things that happen? Also if christian is alive was it really just jack imagining things in season 1 episode "white rabbit"? Or what if Christian is smokey and if smokey is man#2 then that means that everything christian has been telling people was a lie!What is in the temple? Did Jacob curse man#2 making him smokey?
77!
What does 77 mean? The year 1977, locke had to type 77 in the episode "Enter 77"
Also I read a recent "wired" magazine where jj abrams writes a couple articles and there was a random page showing hurleys lottery ticket
4 8 15 16 23 42
and under that a bunch of numbers and 77 was repeated several times.
and what about charlie!?
he is alive.
How would Jacob get his guitar, i know its charlie guitar because hurley and charlie were really close and jacob knew that. What if charlie was touched by jacob before the whole looking glass thing. What if when you are touched by Jacob you cant die? Will the oceanic 6 live forever like Richard so that they can protect the island.
There is also a book in the bible called jacob, read it, i think there is a real connection there.
What is with all the egyption stuff, what does that mean? Did Jacob make a fake dead locke becuase he knew that locke wanted to kill him, why would llana hide the body so long, did jacob tell her to, if so then there must be suspicios reason. Does the living locke know something that no one else does, is that reson he is a diffrent person? Who did the "natives" get to the island, like how did Jacob or man#2 get there, how did richard and the people before dharma get there?When you leave the island from the well why do you appear in the same place everytime, was the place you transport to once also an island or something? What if the second islan holds even more mysteries? What if Jacob got one and man#2 got the second? How in the hell could they find a way to end the show without a 40 hour finale???? Plus there makin so much money it would be stupid to end the show. Why doesnt jacob care about ben? If jacob (I assume becuase he knows everything about the island) can time travel then wouldnt he know he know he would be killed? How did lockes dad get to the isand? Why has the island made both Jack and Locke confront there dead dads alive on the island?

#631. Posted by: Alex at June 25, 2009 1:23 PM

I find it hard to see the big mystery surrounding the big bang in the finale. Either everyone is dead and will live in some alternate dimension on the island . . . or Juliet is dead or will be dying. Are there any other cast members who are in danger of being kicked off the show?

#632. Posted by: DRush76 at July 22, 2009 5:08 PM

→ 632. Posted by: DRush76
Are there any other cast members who are in danger of being kicked off the show?

Yes, Sayid was shot and the last time we saw him he was in the Dharma van losing a lot of blood.

#633. Posted by: Skipper at September 6, 2009 9:57 AM