The Lost Blog

Key Points from "LA X, Parts 1 and 2"

Season 6, Episodes 1 & 2
Episode Air Date: 02/02/10

Point 1

Jack Kate Locke Sawyer Hurley Desmond

There's a certain level of comfort that comes with TV shows. The behind the scenes machinations often reveal certain things, like the length of a star's contract or the chances a show will be renewed. If you know that stuff, you generally know how a season will play out. Not always, but usually.

With "Lost" now in its final season, none of that behind the scenes stuff applies. It's all up for grabs. They might do an entire episode in Esperanto. Jack could be killed by a can of bad Dharma yams. Kate could elope with Ben. Any of this could happen because the rules are all gone.

What we've got is a true wildcard. And that's a special thing indeed.

So let's get to it!

I'm not sure how long we're going to have two realities, but I hope it's a short diversion because I'm already at the outer limits of comprehension. One more timeline twist will lead to The Full Minkowski -- thumb sucking and blood spurts galore.

For now I think I've got it. Basically, the bomb forked time (I think ... I'm just riffing here; I've got no inside info). The explosion created a 2004 timeline in which our intrepid castaways aren't so intrepid. Nor are they castaways. In this kinder, gentler timeline, Oceanic 815 encounters a patch of rough turbulence en route to Los Angeles, but the plane lands safely.

It'll be interesting to see if the pull of fate (or the pull of the island, if those two can still be considered separate things) will recalibrate 2004 events so the same key people somehow come back together. You'll notice I didn't say "go to the island." That's because -- if this revised 2004 timeline is to be believed -- the island is now submerged beneath the ocean. I have no idea why. Nor do I know what that means. But they spent considerable resources crafting sorta-crappy CG for that underwater scene, so they obviously wanted us to notice.

Anyway, here's the 2004 roster:

Jack -- He experiences five notable events in the 2004 timeline:

  1. He gets his flirt on with Cindy the stewardess.
  2. He saves Charlie by plucking a bag of heroin out of the depressed rocker's throat.
  3. He has his pocket picked by Kate (she takes a pen).
  4. Oceanic "loses" Dr. Christian Shephard's body. Jack pouts and complains and calls his mommy.
  5. Jack offers John Locke a free spinal consultation within 30 seconds of meeting the guy. Even in this new rendition of 2004, Jack's compulsion to fix things knows no bounds.

Update, 2/4/10 -- Clementine pointed the way to this fantastic split-screen "Pilot" vs "LA X" video. Beyond the plane not crashing, the most notable difference I can spot is that Cindy gives Jack one bottle in "LA X" and two in the pilot.

Locke -- This was a heartbreaking episode for Locke fans. We get confirmation that our once-beloved Obi-Locke is officially dead in the 2007 timeline, and we have to watch as pre-island Locke slogs through his pathetic life. In the '04 timeline, he's back to being the same paralyzed, daddy-hating slob.

Kate -- As noted, she procures a pen from Jack's pocket and later tries to use said pen during an escape attempt in the Los Angeles airport. The pen proves unnecessary when Kate opts instead for brute force. She slinks through various hallways and doors and eventually bulldozes her way into the back of a cab. And that's when she runs into ...

Claire -- Yes, Claire. That young mother we haven't seen since the end of season four has returned. She appears for only an instant, but it's definitely her. For now, I'm assuming she was on Oceanic 815 with the rest of her comrades. I'm also assuming she's still pregnant (but maybe now it'll be Erin instead of Aaron).

Sun and Jin -- Remember how horrible Jin was to Sun at the very beginning of the series? Remember how much that sucked? Remember how wonderful it was when the island brought these two together? Yeah, forget all that. In 2004, Jin is a control freak asshat and Sun is a manipulative liar. Lovely.

Bernard and Rose -- Good lord. Get a room.

Boone -- For now, Boone's most interesting attribute is what's missing: Shannon. She wasn't on Oceanic 815.

Sayid -- He gets approximately 30 seconds of screentime in the 2004 timeline, but he makes the most of it. He stares wistfully at a picture of Nadia and he goes all Action Sayid when Charlie locks himself in an Oceanic lavatory.

Charlie -- He tries to commit suicide by swallowing a bag of heroin. Or maybe he wanted to overdose ... but you'd think he'd remove the plastic coating if that was the plan. Either way, Jack thwarts the effort and Charlie is arrested. He gives Jack the ol' Driveshaft Stink Eye as he's hauled out of the cabin by the LAPD.

Sawyer -- He's his old wisecracking, devil-may-care self in 2004. It's a nice contrast to the scowling Sawyer we see in the 2007 timeline (more on that in a bit).

Hurley -- Of all the castaways, Hurley's shift is the most dramatic. He now deems himself "the luckiest guy in the world." The facts back him up: he used his lottery winnings to buy Mr. Cluck's Chicken Shack, which has in turn made him a minor celebrity. He's pleased with all this.

The Marshall, Cindy, Arzt and Frogurt -- All appear in 2004. None have discernible long-term roles. Sadly, Arzt was not sporting his bandana cravat.

Desmond -- Now here's where things get interesting. Desmond, as we all know, was most certainly not on the original Oceanic 815. In 2004, he'd been holed up in the Hatch for a couple years. And it was his neglect that actually crashed the original Oceanic 815. But in this alternate reality, Des is a passenger who settles in next to Jack for a portion of the flight. But he also disappears mysteriously. So the question is: Was he really there at all?

One last thing ... Desmond's presence led me to believe that the 2004 timeline is tentative. Maybe Desmond was really there -- that's entirely possible -- or maybe he was some sort of timeline-correcting, fate-directing repositioning device. A Mrs. Hawking disciple, perhaps?

Adding further credence to the flakiness of the new '04 timeline, Jack clearly senses something is amiss. And we see him dab at a fresh cut low on his neck. Is that a shaving nick or residue from the bomb?

Point 2

Jack Kate Sawyer Hurley Sayid Miles

And now we come to the other fork in the road ...

The 1977 timeline that concluded in a flash of light at the end of of last season jumps forward to 2007. We know it's 2007 (or thereabouts) because the hatch is now a crater -- as opposed to the tree-covered patch of earth Jack was hoping for -- and we see that a flare/firework sent from the Temple-based others is observed by '07-era Richard Alpert.

This '07 story revolves around three big developments:

No. 1 -- Juliet Dies (for real this time) -- It pains me to write this since Jules was one of my favorite characters, but the time has come to bid farewell to our dear doctor. In a stunning bit of survival, she manages to persist through a 200-foot fall, a hydrogen bomb explosion, a time leap, and an extended period trapped beneath the Swan station's wreckage. All so she can give Sawyer a final kiss and die just before she tells him something "really important." (Thank God for Miles and his ghost whispering -- if we had to go through the entire season debating what did Juliet need to say?, I'd shoot myself).

Beyond being mighty sucky, Juliet's death promises to send Sawyer to A Very Dark Place. I expect Vader-worthy angst from him this season. Her demise also gives the '07 castaways the first hint that a second timeline now exists. Miles is already pondering that tidbit (he was the one who translated Juliet's "really important" postmortem message). It's also a Post-It Note on Sawyer's consciousness, too.

No. 2 -- Inside the Temple -- Freshly-dead Jacob wisely meets with Hurley early in the episode. That proves important because, without Jacob's info, the visit to the Temple would have ended badly. Turns out, that bizarre guitar case Hurley lugged around for most of season five contained one of Jacob's famous lists. Jack, Kate, Hurley, Jin and Sayid all made the cut, which is how they're invited to the Temple's super exclusive Jacuzzi area.

The Temple is home to a host of new characters and a couple of oldies we haven't seen in quite some time. The notable newbies include Lennon, a bespectacled translator who would have gotten on famously with Horace Goodspeed had Dharma not been in the way, and a Nameless Japanese Leader (Hiroyuki Sanada) who knows English and can speak it, but chooses not to. Both guys answer to Jacob, and both are stunned to learn of their boss' passing.

As for the oldtimers, we see Cindy sporting the latest in Other casual wear (no scarf that I could see, though). And, lo and behold, we get a quick look at Zach and Emma! The two Tailie kids abducted by Others oh so long ago.

No. 3 -- Sayid dies (but then he doesn't) -- I'm going to have to re-watch a lot of the second half of "LA X" because I'm not entirely sure what happened when Sayid was reverse-baptized in the murky waters of the Temple. Based on the reactions of the Temple's Unnamed Leader, Sayid's rejuvenation initially failed. Jack's more traditional form of resuscitation also failed. So for a good portion of the episode it really looked like Sayid was a goner. But in the final moments, as Jack tussled with a couple Others, Sayid props up on an elbow and scares the bejesus out of everyone. If the Temple didn't save him, and if Jack didn't save him, then who/what did? Did Jacob pull a Smokey and dump his life force into Sayid's body?

Point 3

Locke Ben Richard Alpert

We can safely conclude the following about Fake Locke (hereby known as "Flocke"):

Flocke is the enigmatic, Jacob-hating, Man In Black (this was established in the season 5 finale, but it's worth repeating).

Flocke = Smokey. Therefore, Smokey = Man in Black.

This revelation is worth mulling a bit: If we assume that the the Man in Black has been Smokey all along -- and it's possible that's not the case -- then how does this shift perspective on Smokey's past interactions with castaways? Locke (the real one) was deeply influenced by his early encounter with Smokey. Was this a set-up from the start? Smokey also tried to suck Locke into the catacombs. What was that about? Mr. Eko felt the sharp end of Smokey's stick, but I'm not sure why Smokey took him out. Was Eko a threat? And of course there are those run-ins with Oceanic 815's pilot and Rousseau's team. I'm not sensing a pattern to any of this. Anyone see something else at play here?

Moving on ...

Flocke and Richard have known each other for a long, long time. Flocke alludes to Richard's past spent "in chains" (that's got to dovetail with the Black Rock).

Despite their history, Flocke isn't all that fond of Richard. He concludes the episode by punching Richard in the throat, kicking him unconscious, then tossing Mr. Guyliner over his shoulder for a (presumed) trip to the Temple.

Now that he's facilitated Jacob's death, Flocke is turning his attention to the one thing he desires most: to go home. And of course this leads to all sorts of questions: Where is home? What is home? How long has Flocke been on the island? And perhaps most pressing of all, what happens if Flocke gets home?

Point 4

Island

A few closing questions and observations:

  • Best Line: "Remind me to hold it next time, will ya?" -- Bernard to Rose, after a hazardous experience in an Oceanic bathroom.
  • Second Best Line: " "I'm not a 'what' Ben. I'm a 'who'." -- Flocke.
  • Third Best Line: "We got caught by the Others again?" -- Sawyer to Kate.
  • I'm racking my brain on this one, but has Jack really never heard of Jacob before?
  • The whispers are clearly tied to the island's tunnel system, but I'm still not entirely sure how they work. Do the Others activate them? Are they a precursor to an attack?
  • Mental note: When attempting to thwart Smokey with a circle of ash, sit your ass down! Bram qualified for this year's Darwin Awards by letting Smokey pull the old "hit you with a rock" maneuver, which sent him beyond the confines of his ashy haven and into the clutches of a homicidal dust cloud. Well played, Bram.

That's all I've got!

Next Episode:

"What Kate Does" -- Assumptions: Kate episode, criminal activity, daddy issues, childhood talisman. Airs Tuesday, Feb. 9, 2010 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

MIF!!!

#1. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 3, 2010 1:20 AM

Hoo-ah!

#2. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 3, 2010 1:26 AM

OK, from now on all my comments will adopt the following convention:

Sayid1 walks off the plane in Los Angeles.

Sayid2 almost dies, then is taken to the temple to be healed, but the temple healing process kills him. Then suddenly Sayid2 is alive again -pixie dust?

Alternate reality ONE is the one where the plane survives and flies to Los Angeles (simply because it was shown first - no other precedence implied.)

Alternate reality TWO is where they're still on the island. All characters/names/events (if unclear) will have a 1 or a 2 appended to them to make it plain which one I'm talkign about.

Feel free to use the same system if it serves your purposes.

#3. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 3, 2010 1:28 AM

GRAA MAC!!! I really did miss them...

So about the 2004/2007 thing.

It seems as though (as said), the explosion caused the past (2004) versions of the gang to have a different future... but the current (2007) versions already lived their past, and it's going to stay their past until they die. So I guess they're the same people (not really simultaneous), with different consciousnesses?

Let's see... the past we witnessed is still the past for the 2007 losties... the future will be different for our 2004 losties.

I must say... I LOVE how everybody is just bashing Jack!!! Sawyers hate towards him was EPIC. Totally deserved. Kate is extremely annoying as well.

I don't completely remember, but wasn't Rose mad at Bernard for bringing her to Australia and making her go to the healing spot thing?

This episode was very confusing. Totally worth the wait. Very interested in why the island seems to be underwater in 2004.

Jack's breathing is one element of this show I will NEVER miss. I will miss making fun of him though. Unfortunately his stupidity is a key aspect of the show...

#4. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 3, 2010 1:35 AM

So maybe the cabin was MIB/Flocke's cabin the whole time?

Can we anticipate a Ben-Flocke alliance?

I'm really curious where this is going.

My mind is running in circles and my thoughts have a big "WTF" written across them. Confused...

#5. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 3, 2010 1:42 AM

I don't thing the on-island timeline is in 2004. Remember, Jacob's just been killed in this timeline, an event created by Nemesis/Locke after the Agira 316 crash landing in 2007.

I think the two alternate timelines are simultaneous, as much as that means anything, and both in 2007.

Thus my reality ONE (plane lands) and reality TWO (still on island) conventions mentions in my previous post.

#6. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 3, 2010 1:43 AM

Oops, forget the above. I was confused.

#7. Posted by: Cecil at February 3, 2010 1:44 AM

Finally! It's so good to be back here.

GRAA Mac! Flocke - loved it :)

And Lost is greater then ever. It's amazing (or not) how TPTB can still confuse and surprise us.
It was worth the wait.

Looking forward for your comments.

#8. Posted by: PreacherOnun at February 3, 2010 1:47 AM

I just realized how confusing my 2004/2007 interpretation sounded. Let me try again. Sorry if this also doesn't make much sense.

Ok so the current Losties, are in 2007. Everything that happened to them, already happened. Can't be changed.

BUT, in 2004, the plane never crashed... so their future will be different. They will never experience the same things as their 2007 consciousnesses experienced. They are living a different "path".

So past versions are going to have different futures (which is current to current versions, where past is current to past versions).

I guess you can say they're in the same time, but three years apart. Everything that happened to current them, will never happen to past them. They're the same people, different consciousnesses.

That's just what I got from it. The whole Hurley being lucky and Desmond on the flight is confusing...

I still don't know if that made better sense. Sorry if I confused anyone.

#9. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 3, 2010 1:52 AM

Wednesday, Feb. 9, 2010 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

NO!

Tuesday, Feb. 9, 2010 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Good episode--- nice twists. I think at some point soon those on the island will have a choice to be there "and fight" or go back to what would have happened without the crash.

#10. Posted by: Bus Said at February 3, 2010 1:55 AM

Nice review! I'm 40 years old and can't remember ever being so psyched about a show's season starting up. I was soooo nerded out with excitement to finally get this final season rolling.

I think your review of the episode is spot on. Desmond being on the plane (momentarily) and Juliet somehow knowing that "it worked" seem to be the two most important events. I was also very sad to see Juliet go. Major bummer. I think the idea of Desmond time hopping/reality hopping is a good theory - I was thinking the same thing.

One thought I had: it seems to me that a lot of our characters are not really better off if the crash never happened. Charlie's alive, sure, but he's still a heroine addict and is in cuffs. Kate's still in loads of trouble. Sawyer's had no chance at redemption. And where's Michael and Walter? Shouldn't they also be on the plane that didn't crash?

Smokey took Mr. Eko because he wanted off of the show. Maybe he was going to be disposed of in a similar fashion anyways, but I know that's the short reason. I think the real question is why he DOESN'T kill someone when he's got the chance? He didn't kill Locke in Season 1 when they first meet. Why not? He's let other people go too. No clue as to why.

Theory #1: Smokey/Man in Black/Flocke will now try to rid the island of all people so he can finally get some peace and quiet. Unless he needs some of them to help him get home. Either way I get the feeling he could care less about pretty much every human on the island. This guy is serious trouble.

Theory #2: Jacob pretty much knew what was going to happen before it did and has planned for this long before now. I fully expected to see him in this episode and I was right, although not in the way I expected. The fact that Hurley had the guitar case and its contents (the list!) pretty much makes this more than just a theory. Okay, so maybe that was more obvious than I thought.

Prediction: The stories of our current characters will end with the show, but somehow I have a feeling that it won't end for Jacob and Flocke. I'm predicting now that this will end with just 'progress' and we will be left to imagine the next group of survivors arriving on the island some time in the not-so-near future.

Thanks for another great review and one final season of guessing and reading everyone's posts.

#11. Posted by: badsmokeybad at February 3, 2010 1:56 AM

Before Juliet dies for real, she says to Sawyer something like "want to get some coffee, we can go dutch". Completely reminded me of Charlotte saying to Daniel before she died that she's not supposed to eat chocolate before dinner. We later find out that she did say this - and to Daniel - as a child. Thus, makes me think Juliet will say this to Sawyer in the alternate timeline.

#12. Posted by: Beth Cooney at February 3, 2010 2:04 AM

"ilovebenjaminlinusxx" just gave me a new thought:

Maybe the "end" that Jacob and Man In Black mentioned at the end of last season will be the end of the 'current' timeline. Maybe the new version of things in 2004 is what will live on and the reality we've been watching all along will come to an end. Damn, that would be cool.

And THEN you could have a new group of cast aways arriving on the island in the 'new' 2004 timeline, again leaving us to imagine what might transpire (and that we will never see) (unless they start a whole new show, which wouldn't really make any sense - no mystery).

#13. Posted by: badsmokeybad at February 3, 2010 2:04 AM

@Beth - love your idea!! Hope that does happen and James and Juliet find each other in 2004. Since the island is at the bottom of the ocean, and apparently has been since 1977, that means Jules never went - will she somehow end up in LA instead?

The craziness has begun, for the last time (sob!!). Can't wait for the ride!

#14. Posted by: Irish at February 3, 2010 2:19 AM

Re Point 2, No. 3 -- Sayid dies (but then he doesn't):

I had also wondered if Smokey had taken over Sayid's body (Fayid?), but after pondering it a little more, I don't think so. First, Locke's body (or rather, replica...see my second point) seems to suit him just well. Second, Smokey didn't actually take over Locke's body (as Ilana and her peeps so dramatically displayed when they opened the coffin); he somehow made a replica of it. If he could just take over any dead person's body, there would be plenty on that island to choose from. Something about the transportation of the dead body seems to be a vital ingredient. I think we'll learn more as the story of Christian's body unfolds.

#15. Posted by: Ben at February 3, 2010 2:20 AM

Hi everyone! It's good to be back for the final season. I don't have too much time now for reading the recap or post or to make long posts myself, so for the moment I'll leave it at this:

After flashbacks, flash forwards, and time flashing, we now have flash parallels? We should have known. Why didn't I guess? :)

#16. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 3, 2010 2:21 AM

Mac, I think Charlie tried to smuggle some heroin thro customs. Otherwise he would have removed the plastic wrappings.

#17. Posted by: Endolin at February 3, 2010 2:27 AM

Is there any chance that Jacob is in Sayid's body? I'm thinking no but it's at least some small possibility, no? They ARE in Jacob's jacuzzi club after all, and Jacob telling Hurley to get him to the temple implies that it was important. Having their names on a list does too, as does the people stating that if Sayid dies they'll all be in big trouble. What was that all about?

#18. Posted by: badsmokeybad at February 3, 2010 2:27 AM

Plain Simple (#17): LOVE the flash parallels. While we were all wondering "Would it work, yes or no?" it never once occurred to me that the answer would be both!!! I don't recall reading this prediction from anyone else either. Major kudos to the TPTB! (And if I overlooked someone's prediction of dual realities from last season, major kudos to you, as well.)

BTW, Forgot to introduce myself in my previous post -- another longtime reader/new poster.

#19. Posted by: Ben at February 3, 2010 2:33 AM

badsmokeybad (#20) and Mac (Re Point 2, No. 3 -- Sayid dies (but then he doesn't)): I think you're right and retract my #16. Apparently I read Point 2.3 too quickly and thought you said that Smokey takes over Sayid. Clearly, you suggested it was JACOB that might have taken over Sayid. Perhaps Jacob and Smokey have different rules governing how each can take over or replicate bodies.

#20. Posted by: Ben at February 3, 2010 2:42 AM

So we're back.

I think I can explain why Desmond was on the plane. I think the timeline split in 1977 before the hatch was built so Desmond would not have been on the island. Maybe that's also a reason why Boon is on the plane without Shannon. Things in 2004 are different because of the butterfly effect.

#21. Posted by: SnakeJake at February 3, 2010 2:47 AM

I'm thinking that if Jacob and Flocke (personally I prefer Un-Locke) are similar beings, then Jacob can (or could) manifest as a smoke creature just like Un-Locke. That may explain the "duality" of Smokey: Smokey is "beautiful" to Locke (Jacob) vs. Smokey tries to drag Locke down a hole (Un-Locke); Smokey scans Mr. Eko's thoughts and leaves (Jacob) vs. Smokey pounds Mr. Eko to dust (Un-Locke); Smokey pummels Widmore's mercenaries (jacob) vs. Smokey pummels Bram and his boys (Un-Locke).

Anyway, just a thought.

#22. Posted by: Den2Pdx at February 3, 2010 3:34 AM

I’m not sure how this alternate world/timeline will work, but I hope it is somehow connected to the island in some way. We’ve been following the people on the island for so long, even another version of them that hasn’t developed lacks to connection to the audience.

It looks like this season will be the conclusion of the epic struggle between Smokey and Jacob. When I saw Sayid get up, I instantly thought of the ‘Last Supper’ poster. Jacob now inhabits Sayid’s body which is why in the poster Sayid is Judas, and Smokey is Jesus. And Smokey may not be that bad though he has a mean streak. All he wants is to get back home.

Review of the episode on my blog:
http://th3tvobsessed.blogspot.com/2010/02/review-lost-season-6-episode-1-2-la-x.html

#23. Posted by: TV Obsessed at February 3, 2010 4:19 AM

great episode, great recap! we are back to the complexity i enjoyed in the first couple of seasons.

did anyone catch it when cindy, when coming out of the new others temple, said "I know who they are. They were on the first plane, oceanic 815, along with me" what was that about?

Does that mean that (in this timeline/universe) the crash did happen, and cindy was taken, with the kids, as we know, and then somehow got put with these new others, who actually existed the whole time in the timeline/universe we had known up until the weirdness/bomb/time travel? or is something weird going on? sorry for all the slashes, not really sure what to call anything anymore! help, lol.

#24. Posted by: anjou at February 3, 2010 5:03 AM

GRAA, Mac. I've really missed all the brilliant theories on this blog.

I just read another review suggesting that when Locke and Jack have their conversation about the body at LAX, perhaps Locke remembers stuff from the Island reality. This puts an interesting twist on his convo with Boone. Perhaps his experiences on the Island were the Walkabout he was referring to.

#25. Posted by: freckles at February 3, 2010 5:08 AM

great episode, great recap! we are back to the complexity i enjoyed in the first couple of seasons.

did anyone catch it when cindy, when coming out of the new others temple, said "I know who they are. They were on the first plane, oceanic 815, along with me" what was that about?

Does that mean that (in this timeline/universe) the crash did happen, and cindy was taken, with the kids, as we know, and then somehow got put with these new others, who actually existed the whole time in the timeline/universe we had known up until the weirdness/bomb/time travel? or is something weird going on? sorry for all the slashes, not really sure what to call anything anymore! help, lol.

#26. Posted by: anjou at February 3, 2010 5:08 AM

This is a very stupid question probably and has nothing to do with solving Lost theories but need to solve this myself in order to move on.
What does "we can go Dutch" mean?

Somebody mentioned MIB is happily in Flockes body and that's why he is not in Sayid's, but: can he be impersonating more than one at a time? Remember Christian and Claire in the cabin? They were probably both "possesed" by this guy.

#27. Posted by: phg at February 3, 2010 5:11 AM

Sayid is Jacob 2.0 that is all.

#28. Posted by: Jasper Van Den at February 3, 2010 5:42 AM

"Going Dutch" or "Dutch Treat" means we split the bill and each pay for ourselves. The expression is used when you want to go out with someone but you don't want it to imply any commitment so we each pay for ourselves and just meet as friends without any strings attached.

#29. Posted by: Debbie at February 3, 2010 5:48 AM

sorry for the double post up there - computer was being weird. to validate this post, i will add some interesting trivia facts.

Rose was reading "Weekly Woodsman" magazine on the plane, Desmond was reading "Haroun and the Sea of Stories" by Salman Rushdie, and the book Hurley picks up from the body in the Temple cave-entrance was Soren Kierkegaard's Crainte et Tremblement (Fear and Trembling)

#30. Posted by: anjou at February 3, 2010 5:51 AM

This parallel universe thing is really intriguing but I actually feel bad for all our folks in the “uncrashed” world. Jack is rudderless, Kate is in deep trouble, Claire is obviously moving toward a sad separation, Locke only has a pathetic future to look forward to, Jin and Sun are both tortured by inner demons, Sawyer shows no sense of redemption - in fact, he will probably try and con Hurley. And on and on. At least Rose and Bernard and Sayid seem headed for fulfilled lives, but who can be sure.

It almost seems that all of them - excluding Locke, obviously - have a higher sense of individual purpose in the island universe. Maybe the island DID call them . . .

#31. Posted by: davidrh at February 3, 2010 6:45 AM

I may have to append some of my earlier comments because I am reminded by another blog that through Charlie is obviously headed for “drugland” and probably a “worthless” demise, life will not be that cheery for Rose and Bernard either - without the island there is no cure for Rose’s cancer.

This seems to add even more weight to the “island life” as being the right place to be . . Even considering all the tragedy it has entailed.

#32. Posted by: davidrh at February 3, 2010 7:03 AM

Is anyone else just really pissed off that there were two timelines? For God's sake, why didn't the writers just commit to one outcome? I still don't have the most important question answered from last season which was: Did it work? And having a nearly dead Juliet say it did after her impossible survival (okay, I know about suspension of disbelief, but this is ridiculous) just doesn't cut it for me.

So where are they? In LAX or on the island? I also don't want to spend all of the Season 6 trying to figure that out, but I have a feeling I will.

Urgh. Frustrated.

#33. Posted by: mostlost at February 3, 2010 7:40 AM

Great to be back,although my head is spinning !

#34. Posted by: heather Lyons at February 3, 2010 7:50 AM

!

#35. Posted by: islander at February 3, 2010 7:52 AM

Let me just say after reading Mac's summary that although I am VERY excited to have Lost back, I'm also sad. It is irrational the way I look forward to this every week. Mac, I love your recappin'! I also love everyone's insight...it makes me smarter. What's gonna take the place of this? Oh well, we'll all enjoy the ride until May 23rd, right?

#36. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 3, 2010 8:02 AM

Did anybody else wonder why the group of people at the Statue (where Flocke was) didn't notice the flash of light?

My only guess, they must not have seen a flash of light as they didn't travel through time at all, which confirms that the group from 30 years ago must now be current. Well if our Losties jumped forward to 2008 (I'm sure the New Year has come and gone by now and it is no longer 2007), how is it that we never heard or saw this other group of Other's (Jacob's followers)?

We thought all along that Cindy and the kids were taken by the Others (Ben's group). Also, are we supposed to believe that Ben's Other Claim and this new group of Temple Others are on the same side? They both report to Jacob it seems, and they both fear the MIB, aka Smokey. Are they a team? OR . . . ARE WE IN A SECOND TIMELINE WHERE Ben's others don't exist, and they have been replaced by this new group of Temple Others?

Oh no, I've gone cross-eyed.

Maybe I'll keep the assumptions to myself and just enjoy the season as it plays out. Good to be back!

#37. Posted by: ANTP? at February 3, 2010 8:30 AM

I had DVRed both ABC Nightline and Jimmy Kimmel last night. I'm sure they are both probably archived on the ABC website.

Both had interesting segments on LOST. L. and Cuse were on Kimmel and indicated a number of goodies to come. I was encouraged that "yes, the numbers come back!" . . .

And sure, I'm confused by last nights episode. But for goodness sakes, when in the last five years have we NOT been confused? . . .

#38. Posted by: davidrh at February 3, 2010 8:32 AM

Amazing premeire..I think 2004 timeline happens but not because of the hydrogen bomb..but becoz of things are that going to be revealed in season 6. The 2004 timeline might continue in track to show that their lives were not pathetic after all(may be that is what Jacob wants to prove)...aka Jack comes to term with his wife leaving him and his dad's death, Kate surrendering, Locke recovering by Jack's spinal surgery,Swayer joins Clementine and ex girlfriend, Sun and Jin improving their relationship etc...I am saying this becoz of two things: Hurley now feels he is luckiest, Boone didnt bring Shannon from Australia and left her to decide her life..let's see

#39. Posted by: Jag at February 3, 2010 8:33 AM

Fake Locke + Smoky = Flocky

Great recap, Mac. Nice to be back after all this time, but damn it was worth the wait. SCARFY! Yeah, Cindy did say "...the first plane..." That's gotta have major relevance. And the island as submarine? What? Did Richard Branson get ahold of it? What about Jin getting pulled aside by TSA and Sun's "No English..." And Jacob went all Jedi in the firepit?Missed Shannon...she was a cutie. And no Michael and WAAAALLT? Man, it's good to be back.

#40. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 3, 2010 8:35 AM

What's up ya'll.....

I'm gonna have to rewatch but here's a few points:

-Sayid 2.0 can't be Smokey since the Others at the Temple placed the ash around the entire structure while they were preparing for 'war'.

-Cindy is so hot...but for 'Jacob's sake' why no scarf!! (great reference mac..oldie but goodie)

-Check out Lindelof & Cuse on Jimmy Kimmel last night...they did a cool thing where they didn't answer any questions but revealed whether or not things were a coincidence or not. Two examples are 1) it is NOT a coincidence that Shannon wasn't on the plane, and 2) it is NOT a coincidence that when Charlie shows up that Desmond immediately disappears.

Hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

-and-

AAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH

#41. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 3, 2010 8:39 AM

Hi all - have been on board here since season 2 but have rarely spoken up, may a bit more now since it is the last season.

Since the 1977 folks have all moved back to 2007, does this mean that Rose, Bernard and Vincent have too? They were at the cabin, which was burnt in 2007 so maybe they moved on to the caves?? It is looking more and more to me like Rose and Bernard will be Adam and Eve.

#42. Posted by: clazza at February 3, 2010 8:44 AM

Best Mac Line: "He gives Jack the ol' Driveshaft Stink Eye as he's hauled out of the cabin by the LAPD."

Second Best Mac Line: "Bernard and Rose -- Good lord. Get a room."

I mentioned this at some point last season and I still think there is some shade of truth to my thougt. Could it be that the MIB/Smokey has been influencing Locke since the very beginning? The change in Locke from the sniveling guy we see in flashbacks has always seemed so very different from the Obi-Locke that hunted boar and strutted around the island. I think the MIB chose Locke very early to be what we now know is/was his "loop-hole."

#43. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 3, 2010 8:54 AM

Perhaps Jacob = a yet unrevealed WHITE smoke monster. The whole Jacob is good, MIB is bad thing bothers me a bit. Anyway, someone please tell me the significance of the comment by one of the Temple denizens about how the jacuzzi water was no longer clear. Was that supposed to portend that it's healing mojo was gone? Do we know why it wasn't clear?

#44. Posted by: bearandu at February 3, 2010 8:58 AM

DAMMMMMMM GREAT EPISODE, this whole time travel thing is blowin my mind, so confused, HELP!!!

#45. Posted by: Jenny Talia at February 3, 2010 9:03 AM

@44 bearandu

If this is Jacob's temple/jacuzzi, the water not being clear probably is a reference to Jacob's death. Didn't it look red/bloody? Is that, perhaps, how Jacob's spirit entered Sayid, if that is, indeed what happened?

Another thought...I found something that Michael Emerson said in his voice over work during the recap interesting. It was something questioning whether destiny or human will has more influence on the course of events. He said this right at the end while they were showing Juliet pounding on the bomb with a rock. Significant? I think so. Thoughts? Any one?

#46. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 3, 2010 9:06 AM

Man o man did I screw up.

Got a Golden Retriever pup just after Christmas...shoulda named him Vincent.

Where o where did these other Others come from? Were they always there and we just never saw them, or did they appear because of the Flash Parallel (very nice turn of phrase)?

Acc to RNM, if it's not a coincidence that Charlie and Des weren't on the plane at the same time, that leads me to believe that Jacob is working Jack to get him back on track, leaving birdseeds so he can find his way back. The biggest birdseed of all is where did Christian's body go? Methinks Jack's going back to Australia to find it and somehow or other the rest of Our Gang will be on the plane with him.

#47. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 3, 2010 9:07 AM

I think that the significance of the 2004 timeline may be that the Losties' lives are significantly different (if not better). No Michael and Walt, no Shannon, Hurley is "lucky," etc. Perhaps this means that Rose doesn't have cancer after all.

#48. Posted by: Karl at February 3, 2010 9:08 AM

#44 may be on to something. I noticed that Flocke --> Smoke Monster was sort of gray colored in Jacob's lair. But previous appearances of the Smoke Monster have been more sooty black. Maybe there's two smoke monsters (one Jacob, one Flocke), with different hues of smoke...?

#49. Posted by: Callan Bentley at February 3, 2010 9:13 AM

Just a quick note about Cindy, since a couple of posts have asked: the FIRST flight was Oceanic, the SECOND flight was AJIRA. Nothing new or spooky about her comment.

Also, if Jacob can be his own ghost, he can probably have been all of the other ghosts that Hurley has seen.

Finally, the underwater island looked to me like it was in a crater - a blast crater from a 1977 bomb perhaps?

#50. Posted by: LockeBox at February 3, 2010 9:20 AM

One more thing: was anyone surprised the Locke was NOT in the guitar case? It's been him inside everything else.

#51. Posted by: LockeBox at February 3, 2010 9:21 AM

I agree that the timefork shows us that trying to get back to what was- inevitably fails. "You can't go back home." I never liked the rationale for returning to LAX as the panacea that erases all the ills that our characters have faced. It invalidates the value of the drama we have all enjoyed (endured) for the last five seasons.

On another note. If "Jacob" is biblically derived- then his counterpart, perhaps twin would be......

#52. Posted by: skybox at February 3, 2010 9:21 AM

@52...that twin brother would be Esau. Maybe the red jacuzzi water was a reference to the famous biblical story about Jacob, Esau and the "red bean soup".

#53. Posted by: bearandu at February 3, 2010 9:28 AM

I think you are all over thinking Cindy's line about being from the "first plane". Remember that in this 2007 timeline, the Ajira flight has also crashed on the island bringing back Ben, Sun, and the host of others. So they would technically be the "second plane".

#54. Posted by: DW at February 3, 2010 9:35 AM

Methinks everyone will have nosebleeds trying to figure out WTF is going on with the two timelines.

Reminds me of the whacky world of DC comics, where they used to have Earth 1, Earth 2, etc., which were alternate realities with various differences. For example, Batman was long dead in Earth 1. This concept became so over-drawn and confusing, and was resolved by the "Crisis on Infinite Earths" mini-series which essentially got rid of the multiverse, and merged all surviving elements into one earth.

Which makes me wonder - is all of this double story telling going to lead to some kind of convergence? It is unlikely that the series will end with 2 different sets of realities.

Methinks it might be time to rewatch the movie "Sliding Doors", which kept crossing my mind while watching last night.

Regardless - this new storytelling device provides the opportunity to bring back dead characters, which is fun for the fans. Also, it provides a canvas with which they can kill off characters that are still needed in 2007 island time. We might see an episode where Jack1 dies, thus allowing the audience to experience this feeling, while keeping Jack2.

#55. Posted by: shikotee at February 3, 2010 9:45 AM

TPTB had written themselves into a corner on the time travel paradox issue. Solution: parallel universe. But in order to be consistent within the story's own explanations, the event (release of EM/explosion) would have created multiple parallel universes: 1) original when Desmond failed to input the Numbers; 2) when Desmond used fail safe key; 3) when Locke moved the island with FDW; and 4) when Juliet hit Jughead.

As a result, the flashbacks, flash forwards, off-island events for the past five seasons immaterial to the original and current 2007 island time line.

#56. Posted by: welh at February 3, 2010 9:52 AM

Well, according to quantum mechanics there can be an infinite number of coexisting universes. Whenever there is a choice, a branch occurs, and both choices exist. I'm hungry now, but on a parallel branch I'm not hungry. The hungry me decides on chicken wings, but at the same time another branch occurs where I want steak. The steak me will have it cooked medium rare, but there is a concurrent branch where the steak me prefers well done (yuck). And so on and so on.

#57. Posted by: bearandbu at February 3, 2010 9:54 AM

Juliet was/is my favorite character. Hope she does get to go dutch for the coffee w/Sawyer. Not happy with the hippie others.

#58. Posted by: Rosemary Myers at February 3, 2010 9:54 AM

So happy this forum is back!! Going to read thru the review and points and I'll be back to comment!!

#59. Posted by: vintage at February 3, 2010 9:56 AM

It's great to be back!! Thanks again MAC...so look forward to your reviews, especially after that confusing, yet satisfying first episode. I'd like to re-watch...although that will only make my confusion worse... So when the mysterious Japanese guy cut his hand and placed it in the red, discolored water...assumed he was "testing" its healing capabilities. Jacuzzi can only heal gunshot wounds (remember young Ben with a bullet in his gut?) when the water is clear. Obviously, the slice down his palm did not heal, so he would assume the Jacuzzi was on the fritz. Why would he attempt to place Sayid in there knowing that he would not be healed?

#60. Posted by: Boodle at February 3, 2010 9:56 AM

Great review as always Mac, and I couldn't wait to read it once the ep was over. You hit all of the most important points with humor and style, and we appreciate it as usual.

Been a while for me...2 month old and 3 other kids + work doesn't leave much posting time, but I still enjoy reading everyone's comments when I can.

I knew I could count on Lost to create as many new questions as it answered with this ep, but it was entertaining and I enjoyed the episode very much. I don't mind the 2 timelines so much, but I am disappointed no Shannon or Eko or Walt/Michael. It was fun to see all the other characters come back though.

Looking forward to a final season where we finally know EVERYTHING. Right? Right?...

#61. Posted by: JoePike at February 3, 2010 9:58 AM

Oh yeah, and I really hope we get to see more of Juliet in the 'new' 2004 timeline...cuz I'm gonna miss her and am sorry she croaked and won't ever get off the island to see her sis etc...at least not in that timeline. And I've decided it's more the character than the actress, since watching her on V just isn't the same. But that's why she had to die I suppose...commitment to the other show.

#62. Posted by: JoePike at February 3, 2010 10:01 AM

Great episode. I love how the promo for the season says The. Time. For. Answers. Is. OVER. Good stuff. I trust TPTB.

Questions. If the healing water was red which coincides with Jacob's death, why is news of Jacob's death from Hurley come as such a surprise. And when boss dude cut his hand and put it in the water it didn't heal. Which seemed to confuse them. So now they have red water that doesn't heal contrary to the typically clear water. So let's decide to drown Sayid in it to see if it works anyway. wtf.?...

Cindy said they were on the first plane but they were also on the second plane (Ajira).....makes me think there are more than two planes. Jacob used to bring ppl to the island with boats (Black Rock is all we've seen), so now he may have upgraded.

Oh, and what was that thing that Bram or one of other guys from Shadow of Statue picked up off the floor in Jacob's lair. This was right before Flocke turned into smokey to kill them. It looked like a cock-roach type thing.

And can anyone translate what the head other was saying. I don't know what language that was...Egyptian Arabic?

#63. Posted by: MattS at February 3, 2010 10:02 AM

Ok, all, late start for me today and I'm about to read all of the posts but I just wanted to express really quick how disappointed I was in this episode. It was entirely not what I expected and, to be quite honest, it seemed to just be a continued episode from last season than a "final season" type of episode given everything we've been talking about and everything we've hypothesized and understood about the way things are going. Two timelines now?!?!?! The "old" timeline with all of them still stuck on the island was dreary, unimpressive, and annoying to tell the truth. The "reboot" timeline with them on the plane and no crash to me was completely uneventful, boring, and didn't further anything at all. The only big moment in the entire episode to me was when they showed the island submerged under water. I was like "whoa!" and was looking forward to them explaining that. Nothing. Nada.

Look, I'm dying to see how this season rolls out as much as anyone and I will accept things as they come regardless, but I was completely underwhelmed with the lack of progress and synergy to the off-season discussions there was in this double-episode.

Ok, I'm off to read Mac's review and everyone's comments. Back in a few hours no doubt...

#64. Posted by: LostedIt at February 3, 2010 10:09 AM

Something changed way in the past to create the differences we see in our beloved castaways. How is it that Hugo can go from thinking he was unlucky to lucky? That Rose is the one comforting Jack? How Charlie went from being an addict to suicidal? Etc. My guess is it has something to do with November 5, 1955.

#65. Posted by: Rich in Balto at February 3, 2010 10:10 AM

at first i thought it was jacob taking over sayids body just as MIB has taken over Lockes form but maybe thats not the case because wouldn't jacob just take the form of sayid as MIB has done with locke and not use his actual body (lockes body is still on the beach)?

#66. Posted by: DG at February 3, 2010 10:10 AM

Great recap!

I didn't see JKL, but I am glad to know that Charlie / Desmond are related. Did anyone else hear Charlie say 'You shouldn't have done that, I was supposed to die' to Jack, and then when Jack gets back to his seat... Desmond is gone? In island world, Charlie drowned to basically save Desmond, maybe Charlie's fate everywhere (everytime) is to save Desmond?

I'm very upset that Juliet survived, only to die soon after. Why didn't they take her to the temple too!? I guess since her name wasn't on the list she wouldn't have been let in, but they could have TRIED. Also I kept thinking while they were trying to rescue her 'HELLO Sayid is bleeding out over there!!' Hurley took his sweet time listening to Jacob and getting him over to the temple!

And if we think that Flock = smoke monster, could it be that Jacob (man we've seen) = Christian Shepard in the shack? Maybe they both have inhabited people's bodies / have mythical powers?

EEK!!!!

#67. Posted by: Laura at February 3, 2010 10:18 AM

Was anyone else annoyed that TPTB teased us with the presumably-dead-main-character-is-miraculously-alive-only-to-die-in-front-of-us trick? Didn't they already use this storyline in Season 2 with Libby?

#68. Posted by: Ben at February 3, 2010 10:19 AM

re: Two reality convergence

Just to flesh this out further - what really got me thinking was what Juliet mumbled to Sawyer, as she was dying.

"We could get coffee some time... we could go Dutch."

This reminded me of the nosebleed time travel of Charlotte, where she was revisiting her younger self on the island.

Will this be used to link the realities? Will we see a future episode where Juliet1 and Sawyer1 meet, and she says: "We could get coffee some time... we could go Dutch.", and Juliet2 actually shifted and briefly experienced this reality?

This would lead Juliet2 to believe that their plan worked, which is what she wanted to relay to Sawyer just before she dies.

#69. Posted by: shikotee at February 3, 2010 10:20 AM

Haha I meant time for *questions is over....if time for answers is over that would really suck.

#70. Posted by: MattS at February 3, 2010 10:27 AM

Nice Job, Mac. It is fantastic that Lost is back.

My thought is this: Divergence at 1977 due to detonation of the H-bomb causes two realities. The first reality is the one that we experienced since Season 1 with the crash of 815. The second is the reality we are now season without the crash of 815 in 2004.

But in 2007 the players are back on the island. How? By getting on the Ajira flight.

I think this season will show a convergence to the "island present" by presenting experiences for all of our beloved characters that lead them to board flight 316 (the island/ Jacob will still influence their lives). The crash of 316 presents an alternative way to get Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley to 2007 time on the island without the detour to 1977.

It's this year's storytelling experience.

The big question - how to get the island off the sea floor from 2004 - 2007. Perhaps the explanation will demonstrate why Dharmaville etc was so dilapidated when Sun and Ben visited in 2007?

Can't wait until next week!

#71. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarrian at February 3, 2010 10:30 AM

@shitokee - great thoughts. I think you are right on.

#72. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarrian at February 3, 2010 10:32 AM

Mac, great post as always!

Also, I just watched Jimmy Kimmel live that had the Lost writers as guests. They said the last season will be shown on May 23, a Sunday.

Also asked if Sayid was Jacob, and they reacted as if that wasn't true.

Also, they said we will here more about the numbers in the next few weeks.

HOO RAH!

#73. Posted by: Chessy at February 3, 2010 10:38 AM

In preparation for the conflict with the freighter soldiers, Ben sent most of the Others to the Temple, where apparently Kung Fu and the Hippie are the guardians. It was supposedly the safest place on the Island. The clear water is the healing power of the island. It was clouded by Jacob's blood, which diluted the strength of the life forces that heals the injured.

During the hiatus, I speculated that Jacob used the six senses of the Eye of Horus when he touched the O6 as a way to reconstitute himself if he was killed by MIB's loophole. Since the people he touched are now all in the same time/place, Jacob cannot really die. Jacob's spirit is still wandering around like a ghost, waiting for the moment that everyone is back together.

I was struck by the fact that in the prequel highlight show, the term *spiritual* was used at least a half dozen times to explain people or places. I was also struck by the line that said Jack WAS a spinal surgeon not IS a spinal surgeon. This fits into my theory that the island is a spiritual (afterlife) world.

In the Egyptian myth of the journey through the underworld, souls would use talesman, spells, casts, numbers, and magic to ward off danger. I think there are ancient mystic formulas at work. For example, the ash circles as a protection against Smokey. Also, a formula that reincarnated Sayid: LA X. It was only after Cindy, Zach and Emma came into the temple did the space contain Ten outsiders (Lost Angels), which was the trigger to revive Sayid.
Jacob needs Sayid alive so all the people he touched can be reunited in the same place (the temple?) so he can regain his full power against MIB's plans.

MIB master plan foiled by Jacob was to go home. And what is MIB's home? Heaven. And the final war will be between the satanic forces of MIB against the guardian forces of Jacob.

#74. Posted by: welh at February 3, 2010 10:41 AM

@15/Ben
You have a point about the "body". Maybe Jacob needs an actual body such as Christian or Sayid, but Flocke does not. Clearly Alpert is on Jacob's side. Remember when Alpert asked for Horace's wife's ex-husband's body? Perhaps Jacob needs a physical "body" to "live", and Flocke only takes the shape of bodies. It's hard to tell if Eloise or Widmore or even Ben for that matter are on Jacob's side, but maybe this is why they needed a body on the plane, so that Jacob could use it. When Ilana found the body was still "dead" she knew fake Locke was not Jacob, but Flocke.

#75. Posted by: BEMH at February 3, 2010 10:41 AM

Here is a link to the Kimmel show last night with Cuse and Lindeloff. Pretty interesting.

http://tinyurl.com/y9r435x

#76. Posted by: BELost at February 3, 2010 10:46 AM

_____________**


I'm baaaaaackkk!


_____________**

#77. Posted by: Mr. Naysayer at February 3, 2010 10:46 AM

GRAA Mac!

Re Hurley: Hurley's life has been very different in 2007(1) because the bomb destroyed dharma and/or the island (presumably) so the numbers never influenced Hurley's life.

Re Sayid: so Sayid 'drowns' in the jacuzzi. They pull him out and he lays there lifeless for, what, a minute? Jack starts working on him and Kate tells him "stop, stop, it's over, he's gone". Seems to me that it was in the realm of possibility (even if it wasn't in the script) that Jack could still have brought Sayid back at that point. That scene annoyed me.

@#63: It looked like some kind of tooth or fang to me.

#78. Posted by: alexx at February 3, 2010 10:47 AM

Cool idea I came up with.

Jacob touched 8 people in total. The first 6 he touched were Sun, Jin, Kate, Jack, Sawyer, and Locke. They were on the original list.

The two others were kind of an afterthought. Sayid and Hurley were both touched after they had returned from the island before Ajira. He touched Hurley because he knew he would need to contact him to tell him to bring Sayid to the temple and have the proof for the others in the guitar case. He also knew that the healing powers of the fountain would disappear with his death so they would bring Sayid there (or a dead body that he has touched) to act as a vessel.

#79. Posted by: MattS at February 3, 2010 10:50 AM

why are people over convoluting the difference between 2007/2004 timelines?
2007 is the same as it ever was EXCEPT the people who went BACK to 77 on the ajira flight, came back to 2007 after the bomb went off... which was NOT that disimilar to when Desmond hit the failsafe....
2004 is patently... where these people would be if the bomb going off SANK the island... so where would BEN be in this 2004 timeline?

#80. Posted by: muvrshakr at February 3, 2010 10:52 AM

If anyone saw the Damon/Carlton interview on Jimmy Kimmel last night, they make an interesting point in saying that the Man in Black has not necessarily taken over Locke's body...

My theory then is, that the Man in Black as we saw in The Incident was just another dead body, lying around the Island, that the Smoke Monster took over. The Smoke Monster then is able to take over the appearance of any dead body, just as he has done to Flocke now.

#81. Posted by: vintage at February 3, 2010 10:52 AM

http://tinyurl.com/ydqsluq

Ooops here is part one of Jimmy Kimmel interview...

Sorry.

#82. Posted by: BELost at February 3, 2010 10:55 AM

Healing Pool / Sayid

-The Others at the Temple knew that the healing pool wasn't working...as shown when NJL (Nameless Japanese Leader) cut his hand, stuck it in and it didn't heal.

-The note inside the guitar case didn't say 'If you don't save Sayid you're all gonna be in big trouble'...I believe it said 'Hey, this is Jacob...I'm dead now and the only way I can come back and help you pathetic losers is if you kill Sayid so I can jump into his body.'

-So they knew that placing Sayid into the pool wouldn't save him, it would kill him so that they could be saved by Jacob, who needs a physical body to actually do stuff besides listen to Hurley say dude nonstop.

Last note....we must find a solid name for NJL. That's just not gonna cut it. I was gonna go with Bruce Leroy, but that's already taken. Any ideas???

#83. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 3, 2010 10:59 AM

Question: Why did Richard Alpert (Guyliner is classic!) say that they couldn't shoot Flocke? Wazzupwitdat??

#84. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 3, 2010 11:02 AM

The Egyptian theme has been a long running thread on this blog- Richard Alpert, the hieroglyphics. When I saw the reddish water in the Jacuzzin- it reminded me of Exodus- or, the scene in The Ten Commandments when the Nile ran red. Jacob's son Joseph went down to Egypt. Is there a Joseph/Moses thing going on. Let's remember that Carlton and Cruse probably logged in many hours in Hebrew School. Just a thought.

#85. Posted by: skybox at February 3, 2010 11:04 AM

@#63: The cockroach looking thing was a bullet. It was the bullet Bram shot into Flocke, which 'dropped out' of Flocke's body when Flocke turned into Smokey.

#86. Posted by: LostInCT at February 3, 2010 11:07 AM

Mac, GRAA and welcome back everyone for one last hurrah.

Maybe Sayid is Jake Sully.

@Ben 68. I'm with you, buddy. Juliet dying then living for 5 seconds and dying again seemed pointless and frustrating -- unless the going Dutch/coffee comment was important, then I might let it slide.

Why no Shannon on the plane? Perhaps dying on the island really means dead is dead, though most likely we can throw that out in the trash heap with WHH -- whatever happened happened. Also noticed no sighting of other Losties who died on the island -- Ana Lucia, Libby, Michael or Mr. Eko, probably others I'm forgetting. Dunno, haven’t really thought this through...just throwing it out there. And Charlie appearing dead on the plane and then being revived would be an interesting wrinkle.

#87. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 3, 2010 11:07 AM

Long time reader, occasional poster...

My interpretation of the temple/baptism scene: The water was off-color in the jacuzzi, signifying Jacob's death. Mr. Miyagi slices his hand, sticks it in the water but hmm... it doesn't heal. They do their life saving ritual on Sayeed, complete with hourglass, not knowing that the "good" water is now "evil". When Sayeed awakens, he has been healed by evil, not by good. I don't think there is any body inhabitation going on, just the changed slant of the healing jacuzzi.

#88. Posted by: Wendy L at February 3, 2010 11:08 AM

Mac - Great post and what a great 4 months we have ahead of us. There certainly something connecting the two time zones. Or at least the one that went to LAX. I liked the Desmond on the plane bit and Rose saying to Jack "It's normal" as he had said to her. I've got to watch it again as I'm sure there are some other things going on that we just didn't notice.

Flocke or Un-Lock - this guys a bad dude.

#89. Posted by: dk at February 3, 2010 11:11 AM

SPOILER ALERT**************************


Ok, just a little spoiler. Recap of the JKLive interview with Darlton:

numbers will be back... soon.

Sayid is definitely inhabited by *something*

Charlie - Desmond appearance/ disappearance just a coincidence

Shannon, walt, Michael not on the plane - not a coincidence

Rose is calm, Jack is nervous -- not coincidence

#90. Posted by: BELost at February 3, 2010 11:13 AM

@ #87 Scooby-Dude: I think Charlie is a wash because of the Desmond sighting, but Boone was on the plane so dead ain't exactly dead....

#91. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 3, 2010 11:14 AM

Ok, everyone, this one's going to be a LOOOONG one...

Ok, first, Mac I'd like to say GRAA. Your summations are a key part of my understanding, deciphering, and discerning everything that happens in a given episode. On to my comments on everyone's comments:

@12: Beth Cooney - I agree that her comments were a clue that we weren't listening to a conversation between her and Sawyer at the bottom of a well but between them in some alternate reality. I was struck by the disoriented way she was talking to him and at first thought she was delirious until Miles said "it worked". Then, her conversation made more sense.

@21: SnakeJake - While I agree there's every reason to think the "break" in timelines occurred in 1977 and thus Desmond never made it to the island in the "new" 2004 timeline, thus there's no reason to believe he couldn't have been on this flight with the rest of the Losties, the writers made a point of having Jack notice that he wasn't in his seat near the end of the episode *and* they never showed him walking off of the plane at the end. So was he really ever there at all? Stay tuned.

@22: Den2Pdx - Excellent thought. Could Smokey be a manifestation of both Jacob *and* MIB? This one deserves further discussion.

@56: welh - I don't like the current "parallel timeline" as everyone is calling it. It's been distinctly different from the original one in ways that I'm concerned are not going to mean anything or be explained as to why they really are different and we're going to be left with a storyline for which we have no past history against because the past we know of each of these characters is very different than what we know (Hurley anyone?) and it's all going to just be expected to be accepted "as is" and move forward because there's no time to fill things in.

@63: MattS - I think it said the time for *questions* is over, but I could be wrong. Actually, I see now that you answered that in post 70....

@83: Red...Neck...Man - I agree about the healing pool. The guy definitely observed the pool not healing his hand. So why did he so confidently put Sayid in there and go about the "normal" healing routine with him? Your thought is that they wanted to bring back Jacob in Sayid. That is a distinct possibility. But the problem is that with Locke there was still a body sitting around while the new "Flocke" walked about separately. In this case Sayid's body would actually be Jacob. Don't know if that's possible. Perhaps Christian can be used as an example here. His body disappeared (actually, twice if you could the "new" 2004 timeline) and then he was seen in the cabin saying he speaks for Jacob. Perhaps Jacob actually takes over bodies while MIB uses their likenesses? Perhaps we'll get an explanation on this one, perhaps not.


Here's some quick random thoughts:
1) To me this is not a case of parallel timelines in the sense that they are both happening at the same time. There is the 2007 timeline, which is where things left off, and there's a 2004 timeline, which is a new timeline from what we've seen in the past. I don't see them as running in parallel but rather being distinctly separate "what if's". In the old 2004, Hurley was previously cursed by his fortune. Now he's the "luckiest guy in the world". Desmond is/was/might have been on the plane. Some key people were missing (Michael/Waaaaaaalt!) from the plane. While we're seeing many important parallels to the original flight as it occurred there are just as many glaring differences. The fact that they were even still on the same plane together indicates that certainly there is still some synergy to the original storyline but some circumstances are different that don't have a good explanation yet (what caused Hurley to board the plane this time?). To me, this new 2004 timeline is a throwaway. I could be very wrong but it's so far been a "here's what things could have been like" more than it is a real branch that needs to be reconciled.
2) MIB is definitely not in Sayid's body. They are all at the same point in time at the moment and thus Flocke/MIB is on the beach heading towards them. Plus, the ring of ash around the Temple should be keeping him out at the moment.
3) Did anyone else notice how insightful and helpful Locke was in the "new" 2004 timeline? He gave Jack that astute observation about his dad's body being lost by the airline, not his dad and he gave someone else some equally insightful thoughts, cannot remember at the moment what it was about. He seems incredibly at peace with himself and able to reach out to help others without even thinking twice. In the previous timeline wasn't he a frustrated helpless shell of a man who was desperately trying to find himself and a solution to his problems? Didn't seem much like that at all in this "reboot" of a timeline (for which I think it will go nowhere other than to compare/contrast for us the "real" timeline).
4) Ben was even more devious and disgusting than usual in this episode. He positively outdid himself in sinking to new lows here. I truly don't understand his motivation(s) or his intentions in the things he's doing.

Ok, cutting out for now. I have more to say but this post is always waayyyy to bloated...

#92. Posted by: LostedIt at February 3, 2010 11:14 AM

I mean this post is *already* way to bloated...

#93. Posted by: LostedIt at February 3, 2010 11:15 AM

No one should be sad to see Juliet ‘die’. Remember, she (thru Miles) told Sawyer that ‘it worked’. By uttering ‘we can go Dutch’ – it was foreshadowing her later ‘first’ meeting (in the real world) with Sawyer – where they will have an ‘attraction’ to each other. This could lead to, dare we say, living ‘happy ever after’.

#94. Posted by: JT at February 3, 2010 11:21 AM

@ freckles - 25
"perhaps Locke remembers stuff from the Island reality. This puts an interesting twist on his convo with Boone."

I thought the same thing at first when Locke was having the conversation with Jack. I was really confused, and then I got the joke. I mean, it wasn't really a joke, but he was talking about how the body isn't his father anymore, it's just a body. So they didn't lose his dad, they lost the body.

The whole time I was waiting for someone's memory to lapse (right word? I don't know). When Locke said that, I thought his actually did.

#95. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 3, 2010 11:27 AM

My theory is that there really isn't two timelines. Like Miles said. "IT WORKED". Basically the lostaways will figure out how to rewind time and then make it back on the plane. It's the writers way of showing us what happens when they get homes as opposed to spending the first eight episodes showing how they turn back time and next eight showing them solely off the island. They are trying to show us what happens when they finally get their wish, that in the end they will all be destined to be linked anyways and that the Island was just a quicker way.

As to Flockes home. I would guess it's the temple that Jacob probably kicked him out of and now he wants back home to the nice hot tub o' healing.

Also noticed how Rose's hair went from being an afro to more styled in this future flight.

Interesting how locke lost his knives and Christian is lost. Somehow they will all reunite.

Also they don't want to shoot Flocke because he'd go smokey on all of their asses.

#96. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 3, 2010 11:29 AM

@71 Thundarr The Barbarrian hypothesized:

> The crash of 316 presents an alternative way to get Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley to 2007 time on the island without the detour to 1977.

But they were all wearing their Dharma Initiative uniforms that they got in the seventies, so I assume they lived through all that and somehow the bomb foomed them forward to 2007.

#97. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 3, 2010 11:32 AM

Is it inconceivable that MiB (while alone in Jacob's lair) left and took the form of Jacob to speak to Hurley to get him to go to the temple. Now MiB (upon being the new spiritual leader) has powers that Jacob once had like the power to affect the healing water. Now he makes it evil and Sayid is now one of MiB's soldiers. I don't think this is true but it is possible. So many possibilities!!!!

#98. Posted by: MattS at February 3, 2010 11:33 AM

Thank you for the recap. I love this site and all the theories of the posters.

No real theory to add. Will chime in that it would be difficult to slide in the Michael/Walt on the plane storyline, as (obviously)the actor portraying Walt is a young man at this point. Perhaps the writers thought it best to ignore these two.

Extremely glad to see Desmond back. And I'm grateful for the parallel 2004 LAX story line, as some of my past favorite scenes and episodes concerned the non-island flashbacks/flashforwards. It's really no more confusing or frustrating than any other season, as there have always been multiple timelines and stories to follow.

Looks to be a great final season! I wish I could remember the Cindy/Scarf reference....


#99. Posted by: AnnieLu at February 3, 2010 11:39 AM

@davidrh you've made a great point about the dim outlook for the 2004 group.

Sayid is a wildcard. His 2004 life appears to be fulfilling (providing he finds Nadia) and perhaps has the opportunity to 'repent' his previous life. His killing spree for Ben hasn't happened yet. He seems to be the opposite of everyone else. So I think there is a lot to his comment in 2007 about the evil things he did in his life resulting in his afterlife being unpleasant.

I can't wait to see what Hurley's storyline will tell us. You can't change the past, so how can he be lucky? Unless by detonating the bomb in 1977, there is no need to enter the numbers into the computer, so therefore the numbers are no longer jinxed. But then why did Desmond need to detonate the hatch?

One more question - was anyone in the Dharma van when the group jumped to the present? I thought Hurley, Jin and Sayid were all outside of the van, so it should not have jumped with them. And boy they don't make vans like they used to - did you see how that axle was strong enough to yank out that steel beam!

#100. Posted by: Java at February 3, 2010 11:40 AM

Question:

In alternate timeline #1 (plane doesn't crash) the island is under water. Now if that's the case, then there would be no radio tower to broadcast the numbers, therefore no crazy guy to repeat the numbers over and over. Hurley got the numbers for the lottery from the crazy guy, therefore Hurley can't win the lottery. Yet he states he got rich by winning the lottery. Plot inconsistency, oversight, or what?

#101. Posted by: Elvis at February 3, 2010 11:42 AM

Random thoughts:

*------------

I'm wondering if Flocke's remark about "Nice to see you out of your chains" remark to Richard. Maybe it was his way of saying that Richard was now released from whatever bonds had tied him to Jacob?

What does that tell us, if anything, about Flocke's subsequent beatdown of Richard?

*------------

I guess we now know that Locke's telling Jack to 'Let me go, it'll be all right..." when the smoke monster was pulling him into the pit was perhaps a bit optimistic - at least to judge by Montand's body, left to die of blood loss and shock, armless, at the bottom of the shaft, right where Smokey pulled him some 19 years previously.

And why aren't the Temple acolytes bothered by the smell?

#102. Posted by: Cecil at February 3, 2010 11:46 AM

@ 97 Cecil Rose

Right. In the the alternative 2004 timeline, they board 316, disappear as it crashes, relive the 1977 incident (although the details may be divergent as on the new 815), and arrive back in 2007 with their Dharma jumpsuits. Two divergent paths to the boarding of 316. Course correction.

Problem: how do Sawyer, Juliet, Miles and Jin get to 1977?

#103. Posted by: Thundarr The Barbarrian at February 3, 2010 11:46 AM

two theories, one question:

-losties time flashed forward miliseconds before the bomb exploded causing divergent timelines. the bomb caused changes in the backstories for the losties in the "didn't crash" scenario

-Jacob manipulated the losties and others into putting Sayid in the jacuzzi thinking they could save him so Jacob could use his body. The Japanese man mentioned "risks" as usual Jack didn't question what those were - like Sayid could die and then be fodder for otherworldly beings.

-L/C mentioned that the space between LA and X had special significance? any ideas?

#104. Posted by: juliagoolia at February 3, 2010 11:47 AM

In order to understand why certain people such as Shannon or Christian were NOT on the flight, we have to remember why they were on the flight to begin with. I believe that their purpose in the original story was simply to serve as the reason for another character to be on an airplane that was destined to crash on the Island.

In the case of Shannon and Christian, their absence from the flight 815 that lands in LAX rather than crashing on the island leads me to believe that both Jack and Boone will soon be called upon to go back for them - a relatively minor "Course Correction" in the scheme of the Universe.

In all probability, we will observe many course corrections over the next several episodes. I'm sure that all of the key players will be in place again - for their return trip to the Island. Perhaps the pace of the off-Island timeline will be such that the next time we see everyone together, they will be boarding an Ajira flight headed to Guam.

#105. Posted by: vacc at February 3, 2010 11:52 AM

@100 Java reminisced:

>And boy they don't make vans like they used to - did you see how that axle was strong enough to yank out that steel beam!

Axle heck. I thought they tied it to the bumper. I was just waiting for that sucker to bow out and yank off the VW.

Or, alternatively, for the steel beam to shift just a little and go rocketing down the shaft and turn Juliet into raspberry jelly, leading to a very unfortunate last scene for Sawyer.

#106. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 3, 2010 11:55 AM

mac: glad you're back.

I've been riding this rollercoaster with all of you since season 2, but I haven't always been able to log on in time to provide meaningful posts. Not that that will change, or that I've suddenly become insightful and meaningful. Just explaining my absence in case anyone cared...

@37 re: two groups of others, in The Incident season 5, Ben tells Flocke, as "John" is reassuming leadership, that the group of people there with Alpert are just some of the others, the rest are at the Temple.

@22 I think I like the idea of dual Smokeys. Have to give it more thought. Both would have been black thru out, so that might throw a kink into it...

@43 Agreed, MIB=Smokey somehow did seem to id something in Locke early on that convinced him he could be used to get to Jacob. He had a plan all along to use him to manipulate Ben.

@78 Numbers still influenced Hugo in the new 2004 timeline, he still won the lottery, presumably with the same numbers. So that presumes he still crashed the deck, still went to the funny farm, and still met the guy that orig told him the numbers.

Regarding the change in the 2004 timeline characters: John seems much more at peace with his situation; did he really go on walkabout or was that a lie?

Rose seems much more confident as well. DOes she still have cancer? Was she healed in Australia? Does something 1977 or earlier happen that keeps her from getting cancer?

BTW, did anyone else dream in LOST last night. I won't bore you all with all the details, but it did involve multiple dimensions with many parallel timelines, with Eloise Hawking 'monitoring' it all, with a KILL switch option, ready to stop any timeline that got to far off track. Maybe I should email that idea in to Darlton... :)

#107. Posted by: BELost at February 3, 2010 11:56 AM

@101 Didn't the crazy guy with the numbers that Hurley met hear the numbers originally as a military radio operator in the 1950s? That would be pre 1977 and pre incident. Am I off on this date?

#108. Posted by: BELost at February 3, 2010 12:02 PM

The jaccuzzi seems to be tied to Jacob's healing touch some how... jacob did touch Locke in the past when he fell from the building and seemingly brought him back to life.

It's interesting that the water went murky when jacob died.. Coincidence? I believe the healing power of the jacuzzi is somehow tied to jacob's power.

#109. Posted by: vintage at February 3, 2010 12:04 PM

Lots of cool, subtle "nods" to the ongoing themes of the show in last night's mind-bending episode:

Destiny vs. Free Will
Good vs. Evil
Science vs. Faith

Lots and lots to make us go... hmmmm????

#110. Posted by: GatorGal at February 3, 2010 12:10 PM

Jin and Sun are back in the same timeline, yay!

Why didn't Jacob touch Miles? Was Miles on the list in the guitar?

I think things definitely changed in 2004 post-incidint. For example, I though Locke did NOT go on the walkabout pre-incidetn, but post-incident he did. Other examples were already cited. Also, the island may still be course-correcting their lives in 2004 post-incident. Rose will be cured. Sawyer and Juliet will be together, etc.

Didn't Jacob tell Hurley to take Sayid to the temple only if Jack couldn't help him? This shows his "goodness", meaning he would only want to take over Sayid's body if he knew he would die anyway.

#111. Posted by: BEMH at February 3, 2010 12:15 PM

Both jacob and MIB wanted Locke's body to resolve whatever the problem was between them. Why else would Jacob have been there when locke was pushed out the window. Because he survived the fall Jacob could not use his body like he has been with christian. He even asked Locke to help him when Ben & Locke visited the cabin. Both MIB and Jacob can "shape-shift" into different entities as evidenced by other trips to the cabin surrounded by ash to keep MIB out but seeing Cristian there.

#112. Posted by: Kompletely Lost at February 3, 2010 12:21 PM

I hereby refer to resurrected Syyid as "Ra'as Al Jarrah".

#113. Posted by: Brandon at February 3, 2010 12:23 PM

Jacob is NOT the good guy (wearing white was to throw us off) He has controlled Evil Ben from the beginning. He was "killed" too easily for me and I think it was a ruse so MIB would believe he was really gone. He has imprisoned MIB and Richard for centuries and deceived Richard for as long not allowing either to go home

#114. Posted by: Kompletely Lost at February 3, 2010 12:26 PM

@#111

Locke did not go on the walkabout.

First off he is still in a wheelchair so he couldn't do it.

Second of all if you remember from season 1, the walkabout was going on during this flight. They gave him a free ticket home due to his condition. So if he really went on the walkabout, he woudln't be on this flight.

#115. Posted by: Mikey at February 3, 2010 12:27 PM

About the temple Jacuzzi - maybe Mr. Miyagi wasn't testing the Jacuzzi's healing powers when he submerged his cut hand. Maybe he was 'starting' it - ie the Jacuzzi only does its healing thing after a blood sacrifice.

Wasn't there are somewhat related incident when Ben went to the temple, saw Smokey, saw his dead daughter? Something about him cutting his hand, something unexpected about a small pool of water?

#116. Posted by: shannon at February 3, 2010 12:28 PM

Too many posts to check for duplicates, so apologizes if this is redundant, but my thoughts always seem to come back to black and white, "Jacob" and his counterpart. (From the beach chat at the end of last season)

I imagine them as spirits. Black spirit seems to imitate people, where as white spirit seems to take over dead bodies. This is why Locke's body WAS in the coffin, and Cristian Shepherd's wasn't. White spirit took over Cristian's body, black spirit replicated Locke's.

I think the two bodies on the island at the end of last year, Jacob and his counter part, were the last two bodies they took over, duplicated. They were the end of the last people who tried to live on the island.

Like the black spirit said, "It's always the same, they come here then they fight and kill each other..."

Like these two spirits were left here to leave the island to someone who would live there in peace...and not fight. A new Eden.

Great episode!

#117. Posted by: DJchesapeake at February 3, 2010 12:32 PM

two more questions:

-mib doesn't find a loophole until locke - how is locke different than other peeps that died? - and he couldn't kill jacob he had to manipulate ben to do it

-AND do we know what jacob meant when he said "they're coming"?

#118. Posted by: juliagoolia at February 3, 2010 12:32 PM

@92 LostEdit

About Christian's being Smokey or Jacob...I believe in the cabin it could not be Smokey/MIB because of the ring of ash around the area. But is Christian Jacob? Possibly. Christian did say he was now speaking for Jacob. But he has also appeared off the Island to Jack (in the hospital) and Michael (on the freighter). And Jacob often meddled with people off the Island. I also seem to recall that he appeared to Sun and Frank at the Barracks. But I also remember something about Smokey lurking around in that scene, too. Hmmm...

Which leads me to...

@107 & 22

Totally love the dual Smokey idea. We'll see how it plays out. Smokey has behaved appeared as people who died on the island (Alex) and also as people whose bodies ended up on the island (Yemi, Locke). Wouldn't say he's possessing the bodies (Yemi's is in really bad shape).

@ someone back there

About Jacob "touching" people, it seems that once people are touched by MIB or Jacob, the other one can't touch them. Down in the Donkey Wheel Christian (Jacob) couldn't touch Locke because Smokey had touched him first. Of course, that didn't stop him from manipulating him into turning the wheel. It's like a chess or backgammon game with people as the pieces.

@95 Iluvbenxxx

After sleeping on it, I think that alt.Locke does not have conscious memories of the Island, but that, like Jack, he may have a flicker of it. I also think that he was referring to himself about "Losing the body". Locke has lost his body's ability to walk, but he still has his personal power and vitality. And I agree with whoever already commented that Locke seems much more at ease and relaxed in the alternate reality. So maybe he WAS able to go on the Australian Walkabout. Though losing his knives may be symbolic of what's to come.

#119. Posted by: freckles at February 3, 2010 12:37 PM

Ok, I can't believe I am saying this......but I actually feel sorry for Ben. I KNOW! I hate Ben!

And my theory as to why they can't find Christian's body....The Man in Black is currently inhabiting it, and he has been since 815 crashed on the island. He can make it look like different people that are also dead, Locke, Claire, but he actually needs a body. Which is why the Others were so adamant about getting their dead bodies back.

I can't wait for next week!!

#120. Posted by: Wendy at February 3, 2010 12:39 PM

Could the LA X (with space, X being Roman numeral for 10) signify the Losties on the plane?

We can exclude Des who may or may not have been there at all...

Think about it...

Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Jin, Sun, Locke, Boone, Rose, Bernard, and Charlie.

Claire we didn't see on the plane, just in Kate's carjacked taxi. She may have actually just been at the airport to GO to Australia versus just arriving FROM Australia

Did I miss anybody? I'm not counting Cindy or her scarf. Was Vincent in the hold?

Or I'm just dead wrong.

#121. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 3, 2010 12:45 PM

My question in all of this - who is Charles Widmore? What is is role in this? Is he related to Man in black? Jacob?

#122. Posted by: TS at February 3, 2010 12:49 PM

#121 - you missed Hurley.

#123. Posted by: GFish at February 3, 2010 12:49 PM

So after watching the D&C interview on Jimmy Kimmel I'm wondering what some of the clues they mentioned really mean. Shannon not being on the plane is significant. Jack and Rose switching their roles of being uncomfortable on the flight is significant. The space in title "LA X" is significant.

@41: Red...Neck...Man - I could have sworn they said Charlie/Desmond not being around at the same time was a coincidence, as in not significant.

So the island being under water. I take it that somehow the bomb exploding did something to the island that splinter off a different timeline and made the island sink to the bottom. But how does that play into the "old" timeline where they're still on the island. Obviously these two timelines cannot co-exist - they're mutually exclusive by right of the island being under water in the "new" timeline, which is acually 3-4 years behind the "old" timeline. They're on different tracks. So what does that mean for the "new" timeline's future? Does it have a future or is it just an experiment in the "what if" game? More importantly, how many other splinters are there? Are we going to be treated to a never-ending merry-go-round of alternate timelines this season? Will they all be spawned from the one bomb explosion or will they be shown to be causational, each one spawning the next one, ad infinitum? Does this all slide nicely back to the series premier title, "LA X"? Is this "new" timeline the tenth iteration of some loopback cycle doomed to repeat itself over and over until the cycle is somehow broken in the series finale?

These and other questions...

#124. Posted by: LostedIt at February 3, 2010 12:49 PM

@75/BEMH & @81/vintage – As vintage suggests, it seems dead bodies can be occupied, or otherwise employed (as an apparition of the original body?) by MIB/Smokey. I’d take this a step further and point out that it’s only unburied bodies that can fall under this type of control. Hence the concern we’ve seen expressed previously by the Others to bury all dead bodies. Can’t remember if Sawyer was privy to that knowledge or not (even if he didn’t fully understand?), perhaps playing into his desire to immediately get Juliet under the ground, as that didn’t really seem to be a requirement for Miles to “speak” to her. As an aside, now that he’s seen what the magic Jacuzzi can do, will he want to dig her back up and haul her off to the Temple?

Anyway, perhaps MIB occupied Christian’s body when it was lost during the crash, and was then “another dead body lying around the Island,” unburied. Same with Yemi (body left in crashed drug plane), and most recently Locke. Makes me wonder if hawking knew (knows?) this, leading her to insist on Locke’s body returning to the island on the Ajira flight (?). If so, why would she want to facilitate MIB’s effort to kill Jacob?

Final aside – what’s up with Jacob’s giant ankh fortune cookie? Was this used to relay all the previous lists as well? Again, why?

#125. Posted by: ealgumby at February 3, 2010 12:49 PM

@ #99 AnnieLu: I once saw Cindy's Scarf in the fax room at my old company.....and the Scarf and I went on a date. That's all the details you get now......

#126. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 3, 2010 12:54 PM

@126 Red...Neck...Man,

Since my recent surgery I can no longer scarf.

#127. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 3, 2010 1:00 PM

GRAA Mac. It was quite a good episode. Love the divergent realities. And Mac, "the old "hit you with a rock" maneuver" line was sheer brilliance. Whatever will we do when the show is over?

Lots of great theories out there. I'm most intrigued by whether the two timelines need to re-converge and how that might happen. And the Desmond thing in the post-nuclear Lost world was fascinating. How was Des familiar to Jack? Do they still meet at the stadium? Or are island memories filtering into the divergent reality?

The one moment where I said "Come on!" had to be when they introduced us to NJL (Nameless Japanese Leader = Great Name) and the rest. More new characters?!?! Don't do this to me. I'm fragile!

Happy last season everyone!

#128. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 3, 2010 1:02 PM

@ #127 Cecil Rose: I feel for you....you'll get there. But careful, she's my scarf/girl. And I continue to be amazed that scarf can be used as a noun or verb....or proper noun ie 'S'carf!!!

Wow, that thought was scarftastic!!

#129. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 3, 2010 1:05 PM

What a great episode to open the season…My theory is that Sayid was healed at the temple so he now has the ability to kill Flocke…That’s why Ben can kill Jacob because he was healed at the temple (in 77) The purpose of showing the island underwater was to tell us that Jughead did not cause the Alternate timeline because the Dharma Barracks were still there along with the Statue, which would have been destroyed in Jughead’s aftermath….Wow is it Tuesday yet!!

#130. Posted by: Deebo at February 3, 2010 1:06 PM

I am still wanting to know why the rules don't apply to Desmond.

#131. Posted by: steve at February 3, 2010 1:12 PM

Gfish - yer right...I forgot Hurley...don't know how, but I did.

But that's okay because I really think Charlie wasn't actually there (like Des). He was a birdseed, a Jacob-induced pseudo-psycho-manifestation to trigger a response in Jack's subconscious, like the scratch on his neck or the weak airplane cocktail. So my X as 10 theory still holds.

I'm not counting the marshall either.

I know...I'm reaching.

#132. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 3, 2010 1:16 PM

Rumors have it that the season finale of Lost won’t actually be the end of the series. There is talk that the last TV episode will be a “To Be Continued” followed by a trailer for a full length feature film due in theatres in December, 2010. The movie will spend about an hour reviewing, and then the rest of the film is to be the conclusion to the story.

#133. Posted by: bill at February 3, 2010 1:19 PM

I was thinking that the X in LA X meant "not", as in Los Angeles -- NOT. I don't think the timeline in LA will continue.

#134. Posted by: Paolita at February 3, 2010 1:19 PM

I think I'm more confused after reading allof the posts. Can someone hand me Cindy's scarf since she's no longer using it? Need to stop my nose bleed...

#135. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 3, 2010 1:20 PM

@ #121 I remember seeing Claire on the plane just for a moment

#136. Posted by: smitr at February 3, 2010 1:21 PM

@Mac: Oh, I can’t even tell you how much I enjoyed your recap, missed your sense of humor over the hiatus, and appreciate your dedication to this site over the years. Please, please write a book!

The alternate (not parallel) timelines are great. I love the contrast of what is (I’m thinking island) and what could be (I’m thinking LAX). Have no fear, it will all come together at the end. And I find this much less confusing than Desmond’s time travel (what does he know when?) episodes.

Remember when Sayid shot Harry Potter Ben, and Kate/Sawyer brought him to Richard Alpert who took him to the temple? Richard said he could save Ben, but he would lose his innocence and “always be one of us.” (Whatever Happened, Happened) Uh, did Sayid just get baptized as an “Other”? Did Shogun Dude say it didn’t work, or did he just say “he’s dead”? Because maybe the treatment kills you before it saves you as a soulless Other. I hope Sayid turns out to be hosting Jacob, but DG/66 has a point – why would he need Sayid’s actual body when it didn’t work that way with Flocke? Anyway, Sayid better retain his ninja scissor-legs skillz if he’s going to battle Flocke!

I LURVE Flocke. Terry O’Quinn has that evil twinkle down pat. I guess we won’t be seeing much of Titus Welliver.

I cheered when Sawyer kicked Jack into the Swan pit. And I find Cindy incredibly annoying. Cindy’s scarf, however, rocks the Casbah, but was nowhere to be found.

I think Charlie accidentally choked on the heroin due to the turbulence. In the pilot, wasn’t he in the bathroom holding it up to his face when the crash happened?

For those that commented about Rose’s demeanor, I thought she told Bernard that the faith healing was successful back in Australia, to enjoy the time they had left. Not to say that something hasn’t changed with her in the LAX timeline, just that she wouldn’t necessarily be angry/upset.

@Beth Cooney/12: I agree - that dialogue from Juliet about going Dutch for coffee will happen in another time/place. Great call!

@LostInCT/86: “The cockroach looking thing was a bullet. It was the bullet Bram shot into Flocke” Ding, ding, ding!! ANTB?

@Java/100: “One more question - was anyone in the Dharma van when the group jumped to the present?” Hurley was leaning on it. And are you Josh Holloway’s baby?

@vacc/105: He’s alive! He’s alive! We’ve been missing you.

@BEMH/111: “I though Locke did NOT go on the walkabout pre-incidetn, but post-incident he did.” I think he was lying to Boone, because it made him feel better – he wanted it so bad.

Next week – What Kate Does – how will it relate to What Kate Did? Can’t wait!!
So glad to be back!

#137. Posted by: Clementine at February 3, 2010 1:23 PM

Why did Claire get on the plane? Originally, she was only urged to fly to LA because the psychic knew that the plane would crash... since the plane does not crash, the psychic would not have sent her.

Also, What "changes" about people who are healed at the temple. So far we know that Ben (as a child) and Sayid have been taken to the temple with mortal wounds, and you could even make a case for Locke being healed (both the ability to use his legs, and miraculous revovery after being shot and left for dead by Ben). Does being "healed" mean that you are know vulnerable to becoming possessed by either Smokey/Jacob/MIB?

#138. Posted by: Kevooooon at February 3, 2010 1:28 PM

I think we're underestimating the importance of Jack saving Charlie. Remember Des told Charlie on the island that he had to die if the rest of them had any chance of getting off of the island. I think Charlie has to die for the benefit of the reat of the 815'ers (kind of Jesus-like, don't you think?) & by saving Charlie, Jack has effected the destiny/fate of the 815'ers for the worse. It was after Jack had saved Charlie that Desmond disappeared from the plane & possibly Christian's corpse too.

#139. Posted by: COOKIE at February 3, 2010 1:34 PM

This is a stretch..... but what if when Juliet died she was "re-integrated" with her 2004 timeline self - with all the memories from both timelines? What if that happens to all of them?

Not sure if I like that idea but is it even a possibility?

#140. Posted by: BrianV at February 3, 2010 1:43 PM

Just a thought, if Flight 815 lost radio communication and had to turn and fly towards Fiji for an hour before it went over the island, why did the Alternate Flight 815 land as planned and go over the island?

#141. Posted by: PZ at February 3, 2010 1:54 PM

why did kate wake up in the flippin tree??!

#142. Posted by: vintage at February 3, 2010 1:55 PM

Perhaps the island is at the bottom of the ocean because Juliet triggered the bomb that negated the exotic material. And it just so happens that the exotic material is Unobtainium, the same material found on Pandora! Floating mountains, floating islands!

#143. Posted by: Anthony at February 3, 2010 1:57 PM

LA X theory...

I'm at work and will rewatch tonight. But can someone count how many characters that are significant to the island that are on this new flight? Are there 10 of them. Roman numeral "X" equals 10. So it would be LA (space) 10. The LA 10!

#144. Posted by: LostIsFound at February 3, 2010 2:00 PM

Michael and Walter comments are interesting, but remember. They are actually the only two to ever leave the Island successfully. The events on the island may no longer imapact them off island.

#145. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 3, 2010 2:05 PM

I’m still bothered by some fundamental questions which this episode did nothing to clear up, unless I’m just not seeing it:

(1) Is MIB good or bad? It would seem obvious that he’s the bad one (dressed in black and all, you know), but as TV (@23) pointed out earlier, poor guy just wants to get home! Of course, I don’t recall E.T. slaughtering people in his (gender?) quest to get back home, so that example kinda points to MIB being bad. Right?
(2) Then I remember the Jacob/MIB scene on the beach with the Black Rock (presumably) just off shore, and Jacob admits to intentionally bringing people to the island, and in that dialogue, it’s MIB who seems the good one, and Jacob the manipulative, evil entity. What gives?
(3) Montand got killed by Smokey, who came out of the Temple via the hole in the wall revisited in this epi … did Smokey get IN or OUT thru that hole in the first place? My assumption was that “the incident” created the hole in the first place. But if Smokey was out, and got in, then how did the Others manage to get him/it/whatever back out and keep it out? Did they? I assume Smokey was out in the first place, cause Dharma had the sonic fence to keep it out … right? Then who/what was IN the cabin? Was the ash ring to trap someone/thing IN, or just to keep Smokey OUT, like Bram tried (in vain) to do in last night’s epi?
(4) Related … exactly what keeps Smokey at bay? Ben released Smokey to attack Keamie et al by draining away water that was ostensibly holding Smokey back … anything special about that water, or is it just any water? What about the sonic fence, how does that work? The only correlation I could ever come up with between water/sound was “waves” … but then we have the whole ash thing too! Huh?
(5) We’ve seen Jacob off the island a lot in the flashback scenes … what about MIB? If water repels him, is he stuck there simply cause it’s an island? Can he ride on a boat or other means of human transport? Once again, it kinds seems like MIB is a prisoner … cause he’s bad, or because he’s being unfairly detained by Jacob? Did Richard sell him out to escape his own chains?
(6) If MIB has never left the island, does that imply any off-island apparitions were Jacob?
(7) If the island is underwater in the “815 no crash” scenario/timeline, does that mean MIB is dead/trapped somewhere under all that water? BTW, intact Dharmaville playground under the sea tends to dispute the “Jughead blew up the island” theory, right?
(8) Am I completely off the mark, and water has nothing to do with anything?
(9) Does Widmore/Paik alliance even matter anymore? How does Hawking fit in to things? What happened to Daniel in either of the “current” timelines?

I could go on, but that’s enough for now … already too much to grasp …

#146. Posted by: ealgumby at February 3, 2010 2:06 PM

@145: ALEX ANGEL - Last I checked, the Oceanic 6 also left the island, as did Ben. Not to mention the fact that Michael returned to the island on the freighter, even if he didn't actually set foot on it.

#147. Posted by: LostedIt at February 3, 2010 2:06 PM

I have not read all the postings but am being urged by a friend to mention my Richard Alpert in chains idea. I hope this is not already old news. But in Season One when they got the dynamite out of the hole of a rotted Old-World freighter ... weren't there chains aplenty. So the square rigger at the end of Season Five is probably that old-rotted hull and Richard was aboard in chains. Why? I have no idea. I also feel that ship probably fired on the island -- proving Flocke's theory that humans are war-like -- and decimated the Egyptian Tawaret. And more old news is probably that the Tawaret is the Eqyptian god of fertility and children cannot be born onto the island. (Should Island be capitalized?)

#148. Posted by: Gary at February 3, 2010 2:10 PM

A good bit of info came from the producers interview on Jimmy Kimmel, they explain that "Flocke" is not, in fact, possessed by the man in Black, alluding to the possibility that Smokey and the man in black are not one in the same. I wish I had a link to post, but I'm sure it's on abc's website somewhere. I will have to rewatch and comment again later.

Closing notes: Season 6 proves to be just as extraordinary as the 5 before it, and I cannot wait to see what the future, or past, or whatever :P has in store for our little group of losties.

#149. Posted by: clayton at February 3, 2010 2:12 PM

LA X = Los Angles 2010!!!

#150. Posted by: Bill at February 3, 2010 2:13 PM

LA X. Could the X actually be a roman numeral?

We had the Oceanic 6.

Now we have the LA 10?

Let's count

1. Jack
2. Kate
3. Sawyer
4. Sayid
5. Charlie
6. Sun
7. Jin
8. Boone
9. Rose
10. Bernard

Did I miss anyone? Desmond wasn't really on the plane. We never actually saw Claire on the plane either. You'd think they would have shown her. Frogurt doesn't count.

#151. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 3, 2010 2:13 PM

Sorry #121. I didn't refresh before I wrote my theory about LA X. But I agree with you about the 10.

#152. Posted by: LostIsFound at February 3, 2010 2:17 PM

@121, HAHA. Just read your post. Sorry for pasting the same theory.

#153. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 3, 2010 2:17 PM

Dual Smokies - we've actually been clued into this since around Season 3. At the Pearl, if I remember, Locke asks Eko what he saw when he encountered Smokey. Eko tells him about the black smoke, and Locke says something like "I saw it too when we first crashed here, but it was a bright light..."

He's referring to his first encounter with the monster in Walkabout.

So- Smokey is the Man In Black, and Jacob is most likely some kind of bright light that we've never seen before- which makes the same noises as Smokey- this is why Locke confuses the two. We can assume Jacob is what Locke sees in Walkabout, from Season 1.

Two monsters- one black, one white.

Anyone else remember this?

#154. Posted by: Moirae at February 3, 2010 2:20 PM

@ 146 - ealgumby
(1) Is MIB good or bad? It would seem obvious that he’s the bad one (dressed in black and all,
you know), but as TV (@23) pointed out earlier, poor guy just wants to get home! Of course,
I don’t recall E.T. slaughtering people in his (gender?) quest to get back home, so that example
kinda points to MIB being bad. Right?

It should be noted that Flocke gave Bram and Co. the opportunity to leave and only went all smokie
when they attacked him. Also Flocke comments that he was sorry that Ben had to see him that way.
I think Flocke was reffering to being violent not being smokie. Remember Ben and Smokie already met.

(6) If MIB has never left the island, does that imply any off-island apparitions were Jacob?

IF MIB never left the island, how does he know what Lockes final thaughts were?
maybe His home is either not on this world, this dimention, or this timeline.

#155. Posted by: steve at February 3, 2010 2:23 PM

@ #151 - You forgot Hurley.

#156. Posted by: Hurley Is Hot at February 3, 2010 2:25 PM

Sorry I meant Dimension not Dimention

#157. Posted by: steve at February 3, 2010 2:34 PM

Is 2007 "what is" and 2004 "what could be"? Or the other way around. Or are both equally real?

I'm thinking MIB is evil. Terry O' Quinn is really hamming it up with that evil gleam in his eye. Or maybe it's that Jacob and MIB are neither good nor evil but like most people are a combo of both? Like 2004 and 2007 it's not one or the other but both? like faith vs. science neither is entirely right or wrong but a combo of both? Everything's a gray area?

I had a definite Obi-Wan vibe from Jacob this ep. He knew he was going to be killed and used it to his advantage to become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine".

I was disappointed in the Juliet scene. Why have her be alive only to have her dead again in two minutes? Obviously "It worked" and the coffee comment will be meaningful at some point so hopefully this scene won't feel so empty down the road.

I love the unpredictability of this show. Most shows follow the rules. This one has no rules. We'll show two or three or more stories in one episode out of order and let everyone figure it out.
I never know what to think about this show. It's infuriating and exhilirating at the same time. Don't want it to end!

#158. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 3, 2010 2:34 PM

Just before Juliet began banging on the bomb Miles' dad said something about hitting an energy pocket. Maybe the bomb never went off and that the energy in the pocket was released instead. If that bomb went off Juliet would have been blown to bits and the bomb crater would have been level to the bomb. In other words, whatever went off was above Juliet and left most of the hole she was in intact

#159. Posted by: Kompletely Lost at February 3, 2010 2:35 PM

@64 - Rich in Balto
Reference to Nov 5, 1955... But, wasn't that day when Marty went baa.. I mean That was day of the famous Hill Valley lightning storm. good stuff!

#160. Posted by: steve at February 3, 2010 2:42 PM

Vi diris:

"They might do an entire episode in Esperanto."

Ghi estas BONEGA ideo!

Vilchjo de Mesao Arizono, Usono

#161. Posted by: Vilchjo de Mesao Arizono Usono at February 3, 2010 2:51 PM

Significant?

Jack said "nothing is irreversible"

hmmmmmm!!!!!

#162. Posted by: weepict at February 3, 2010 2:54 PM

@115 Locke did SO go on a walkabout post-incident. Go back and rewatch his conversation with Boone!

#163. Posted by: BEMH at February 3, 2010 2:55 PM

@162 I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought there might be something to that line

#164. Posted by: harms at February 3, 2010 2:59 PM

The healing Ninja knew that the water wouldn't heal. He looked a little too discomfitted when he pulled his hand out of the water. However, he had to sell it to Jack, Kate, et al. If he said, in English or not, "I will kill Sayid so Jacob can have a body" the group would have freaked out and tried to save Sayid. The hour glass and group of hippies dunking Sayid made it look more real. The Ninja knew the whole time that Sayid wouldn't, dare I say, couldn't live, so Jacob could come back and fight Flocke.

Missed Cindy's scarf but like her new island braids. Very vacation in Bermuda-ish.

#165. Posted by: lardiea at February 3, 2010 3:07 PM

@115 Locke did SO go on a walkabout post-incident. Go back and rewatch his conversation with Boone!

Is the "We" Locke refers to he and Boone?

#166. Posted by: steve at February 3, 2010 3:11 PM

@102. Posted by: Cecil

re: "Nice to see you out of your chains"

I was struck by two thoughts. The obvious was the Black Rock slave ship, and how as previously suspected, this was how Richard came to the island.

But - it also made me think about the myth of Prometheus.

In short, Prometheus tricks Zeus into choosing the crappier choice of meat that was made to look more appealing, thus resulting in good meat goes to man, other stuff as sacrifice to the gods. In retribution, Zeus takes fire away from man, and Prometheus goes against his orders and sneaks it back. As punishment, Prometheus is chained to a rock in the Caucasus where his liver is eaten out daily by an eagle, only to be regenerated by night due to his immortality.

#167. Posted by: shikotee at February 3, 2010 3:23 PM

The "X" in "LA X" could mean the year 2010.

#168. Posted by: BEMH at February 3, 2010 3:26 PM

Good recap and theorizing as usual. I think of the two timelines not so much as time lines or as alternate realities but as parallel universes, which get talked about a lot in physics (or maybe it should me metaphysics.) In fact it is theorized that there can be an infinite number of parallel universes. Now supposed the island exists at some singularity in space-time and at this singularity, people can slip from one parallel universe to another. But they have only dim ideas on how to do this reproducibly. The atom bomb, in a very brute force way, comingled two (maybe more) of these parallel universes and scrambled them up a bit. They don't actually move from one universe to another, but they are dimly aware of these universes.

Jacob may be very adept at doing this. He picks the losties for his purpose, but interestingly enough, he picks some of them way before the crash and some of them afterwards. Will they eventually be his disciples? And if so, in which Universe.

Richard says he saw all of the people in the 1977 Djarma photograph die! Richard is in 2007 when he says this. I cannot remember if he has seen Jack, Sawyer, Jin, Miles, Hurley, and Kate in 2004 when they were rescued from the Island and presumably would be the last time he saw them, but if he did, why didn't he recognize them? Because 1977 was too long ago? He needed the picture to recall the incident? When he said he saw them die, that must have been whe the atom bomb went off.

How do we know that when Oceanic 815 crashed while an "event" was occurring on the island that the island they landed on was in 2004? It might have been 2004 when it took off, but that is no guarantee that it was 2004 on the island they landed on. If it was not 2004, would that clear up some time travel inconsistencies? (Is my nose bleeding?) We might conclude that they crashed in the same time line they took off in because the freighter that came to kill them all (save Ben) was in the same time line. EXCEPT, the freighter was under the influence of the island's time, close enough to give people time shifting nose bleeds.

The Man in Black and Smokey are one in the same, two manifestations of the same entity. MIB has a bad opinion of people as expressed to Jacob when they were chatting on the beach and MIB was talking about how much he wanted to kill Jacob. MIB sees no hope in the future. Jacob does and this is why MIB hates Jacob so much. MIB as Smokey gets a good look at Locke and sees in him (manipulability?) the eventual means to MIB's end, that of killing Jacob.

MIB can manifest himself in any way he wants but somehow must need Locke's body to look like Locke and set up Ben to murder Jacob. Locke was always manipulable and obnoxious when he thought he was being cool. MIB may not be all powerful and needed someone else to kill Jacob. Black Locke (not to be confused with Dead Locke) was a neat disguise to manipulate both Richard and Ben for the final showdown.

@anjou. Cindy mentions the First plane, Flight 815. The second one was Ajira 316. Cindy and the kids have been with the "Others" ever since 815 crashed.

Smokey does not take over Locke's body but is able to duplicate it. Sayid could be a reincarnation of Jacob or could simply be someone Jacob in a universe where he's not dead can use.

Has the Ben Linus - Charles Widmore battle become one of Jacob vs MIB? Is Lost like the Greek epic stories involving the gods (Jacob and MIB), kings (Linus and Widmore), heros (take your pick) and weird stuff. So far we haven't seen anyone turned into swine, but if Lost is to be our Odyssey and/or Iliad, then there must be lessons about the nature of humans and their societies to be drawn from it.

#169. Posted by: August Paul at February 3, 2010 3:27 PM

@ #63. Posted by: MattS

It was the bullet they shot Flocke with.. apparently they bounce off him like Superman...

#170. Posted by: vintage at February 3, 2010 3:32 PM

I haven't seen the Jimmy Kimmel interview but someone said the Charlie there/Desomnd not was not a coincidence but then someone said that it was. Can someone clarify?

Could it be that our Losties are expeiriencing what Faraday was researching- experiments involving a person's conciousness jumping through time. Not sure how they can all jump simultaneously though.

And why the 2 timelines? Does everything that is happening (and will happen)in 2004 eventually result in the ultimate happenings in 2007 or will 2007 be changed by whatever transpires in 2004? I know- all questions and no amswers!

#171. Posted by: irishfan at February 3, 2010 3:35 PM

Fake Locke said that the original Locke was "the only one who wanted to stay on the island". So they are completely ignoring the Michael/Walt characters as Walt also indicated he didn't want to lea ve which is why he burned the first raft.
Too bad, I really liked Walt.

#172. Posted by: Rudy at February 3, 2010 3:44 PM

I am intrigued about Flocke wiping the bloodied (and huge) dagger on the carpet, then cutting out the corner with the blood on it. Didn't we see that fragment pinned to the inside of Jacob's cabin in a prior (future?) scene? I wonder what its significance is?

Also, I agree that Jacob must use actual dead bodies as vessels, whereas MIB/Smokey is able to replicate their form. Definitely think the ankh-note instructions were to make sure Sayid dies (they knew the water was non-healing)so his body could be used.

#173. Posted by: glostover at February 3, 2010 3:46 PM

Probably wrong but what the heck. LA X could stand for Life After Death.

#174. Posted by: steve at February 3, 2010 3:50 PM

Like the theory of Jacob use bodies as a vessel and MIB uses their likeness. BUT, can someone explain when Walt was over near the pit after Locke got shot. I would interpret that as MIB trying to save Locke because he knew he was the key to killing Jacob. BUT, Walt isn't dead. So how did he use that likeness???

That is the only person plus Kate's horse that has appeared on the island in a strange way without being dead. Unless of course Kate's horse died but it wasn't on the island.

#175. Posted by: LostIsFound at February 3, 2010 3:59 PM

Maybe the island goes underwater to HYDRAte. Ha...

So was anyone else entertained by the way Richard dragged Ben and threw him at Locke's body?

Once again, I absolutely love how everyone's hating on Jack... especially Sawyer.

I also enjoyed what Flocke said to Ben about John Locke's character.

Can't wait till next week.

#176. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 3, 2010 4:10 PM

The ankh (U+2625 ☥, 'key of life', 'the key of the Nile', 'crux ansata') was the Egyptian hieroglyphic character that read "eternal life",
The Ankh Cross represents life (immortality) and death, male and female, balance. It can also represent zest, joy of life, and energy. It's closely related to the looped cross that can mean fertility and life.

I googled "ankh" and here is a sampling of what I found:

The Ancient Egyptians used the ankh to stand for the word ʿnḫ meaning life.

While the origins of the ankh may be obscure, the meaning is certainly clear - "life".

The Ankh, symbol of life or eternal life was associated with water, the sustainer of all life.

#177. Posted by: harms at February 3, 2010 4:12 PM

@163 BEMH asserted:

>@115 Locke did SO go on a walkabout post-incident. Go back and rewatch his conversation with Boone!

Have you been *watching* this show for the last five seasons?

#178. Posted by: Cecil at February 3, 2010 4:14 PM

I don't know if this was mentioned or not but, did anyone notice that hurley has a red shirt on? Is he our next lostie to go? and does anyone remember that when little ben got shot that Richard brought him to the temple? wonder if he enjoyed the whirlpool bath like sayid did.

#179. Posted by: LAM at February 3, 2010 4:15 PM

Enjoying all the comments. Here's a few:

When Jacob says "They're commming" Flocke seems to have a scared look on his face. Any thoughts on that?

I'm thinking that when the statue people hike over to the temple Jin will see Sun and they'll both freak out but the Others can't let her in because she's not on the list??? Or is she??? Or Jin will bust out to re-unite. That could get crazy especially if Jin breaks the ash circle on his way out.

Did anyone else notice Sawyer's ears perk up when Hurley starts talking about winning the lottery? I'm thinking Sawyer will try to con Hurley.

Somehow Sawyer and Juliet will meet and the famous "go dutch" speech will happen and he'll "remember" the island???

There was a scene way back when where the ash circle is shown broken near the cabin. Can't remember the significance or what happened in that scene. Anybody?

I think we'll know soon enough if Jacob is inside Sayid. I think he'll seem wiser and whatever, kind of like when Flocke became Locke.

My 2 cents.

#180. Posted by: jms at February 3, 2010 4:17 PM

It was fun to rush home and get mesmerized by "Lost" again. Lookinng forward to finding out who Libby really was via the 2004 timeline.

#181. Posted by: Kay at February 3, 2010 4:25 PM

L.A. TEN (X)
- - - -
Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Jin, Sun, Locke, Boone, Rose, Bernard, Charlie, Hugo, Sayid. (that's 12)

maybe Doc Artz, maybe Claire, maybe Des, maybe Cindy/Scarfy, maybe Frogurt, maybe Capt Norris. WTF were Ana, Eko and Libbs doing?

Now ask how many were touched by Jacob? (8-ish) Locke, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hugo, Sayid, Jin, Sun,

Of the "12" above, how many that died made it home? Boone and Charlie (2) That leaves 10 of the 12.

How many that landed seem to be continuing on with life, or a being "re-purposed"

Same old same -
Rose and Bernard - happy, content (cancerous?).
Frogurt - goofy creep.
Doc Artz - jackass know-it-all returns to high school teaching.
Norris - live to fly another day, or trade flights with Frank Lapidus again.
Boone - failed to retrieve sis, return to vampire wannabe status.
Charlie - prison and rehab.
Locke - paraplegic. Box Factory employee of the month.
Desmond - "bloop" (time flash in, time flash out). in - out - in -out

Who is 're-purposed'
Kate - fugitive, again. new charges.
Claire - kidnapped, kept from adoption action.
Sawyer - Crushing on fugitive Kate. Aide and abet charges lead to Australian murder rap.
Hugo - PeeWee Herman Jr. is the "luckiest boy in the world". Goes to Vegas and wins double-down bet.
Sayid - Avoids life of self-loathing and finds love of life.
Jin - ROK gangster incarcerated in US prison (not for DUI)
Sun - Frames gangster boyfriend, then meets real boyfriend, Jae, in Vegas for wedding at "Little White Chapel Of The West"
Jack - Find papa again - declares to all aboard... "we have to go back" (to Sydney)

#182. Posted by: DocH at February 3, 2010 4:26 PM

I thought for sure the big secret Juliet needed to tell Sawyer was that she was pregnant!

#183. Posted by: jms at February 3, 2010 4:26 PM

Hey, could X stand for 10?

I'll be the first this year ... AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH. Oh, how I'll miss those primal screams!

Does anyone think Sawyer and Juliet will meet up for coffee...oh, never mind. ;-)

#184. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 3, 2010 4:29 PM

Oh - and Cindy.

That is one seriously re-purposed Flight Attendant - she's "AnotherOther"

#185. Posted by: DocH at February 3, 2010 4:30 PM

Possible meaning of LA X: X signifies the variable in math. La = "the" in Latin. So it means The Variable, which goes back to the episode of the same name about changing the future using human free will as the variable.

Someone (not me) needs to compile a complete list of the differences between the two 815 flights. I think we're seeing changes to people's attitudes based on their "progress" made on the island.

Did Jack only take one bottle of booze from Cindy on this flight, vs two on the first time?

Why do Hurley, Boone, Rose and Bernard seem happier with life in general in the new timeline, but Charlie does not? Not sure about Jack, Swayer, Sayid, and Locke, Claire. Kate doesn't seem to have changed a bit, but that jives with her island experience.

#186. Posted by: bouds at February 3, 2010 4:32 PM

@bouds #186

Kudos on the LA X theory! That's the best one I've heard!!

#187. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 3, 2010 4:36 PM

Random thoughts: I'm stull going thru the posts so I'm sirry if these are repeats.

- I don't think Deacon Wu drowned Sayid so that Jacob could occupy his body b/c the giant egg timer indicates that there is a specific amount of time required for healing. Also, Hurley didn't tell them that Jacob was dead until after they killed Sayid.

- When Jacob said as he died "they're coming" did he mean Iliyana & crew with Locke's body which would prove that Locke was Flocke?

- An island that can submerge & resurface explains how the Black Rock got "beached" so far inland. What a great way to recruit/capture new residents/subjects.

#188. Posted by: Cookie at February 3, 2010 4:40 PM

Damn I miss spell-checker

#189. Posted by: cookie at February 3, 2010 4:42 PM

@178/Cecil
Re: Have you been *watching* this show for the last five seasons?

What exactly are you implying? Not that I need to justify myself but the answer to your question is "Yes, I have diligently watched the last 5 seasons, each episode at least twice, and own all on DVD. Have YOU been *watching*, or better yet, have you been *listening*?

Locke did not go on the walkabout in the "first" 815 flight because they told him he couldn't. ("Don't tell me what I can't do"). On "this" 815 flight he told Boone his trip was for pleasure and he went on the walkabout.

I don't think there is anything wrong with my statement/opinion and am entitled to my theory.

If you can't be nice, please leave!

#190. Posted by: BEMH at February 3, 2010 4:42 PM

@190: BEMH - Ok, before this gets going, let's be clear. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and I know Cecil well enough to say he wasn't looking to be hostile. Based on the actual occurrences on the show, not what Locke happened to say this particular episode we know that he was denied access to the walkabout. When you were emphatic about him having definitely gone on the walkabout Cecil was merely questioning your having been watching the show to be so sure he went on the walkabout when it's well known he didn't. Not knowing you were talking about what Locke said he did on this particular episode, I'd hope you'd understand his response to you.

Now, that being said, everyone, let's put this behind us. There's too much enjoyment of the new season to do to allow this to devolve into anything short of a welcome-back party.

#191. Posted by: LostedIt at February 3, 2010 5:13 PM

@190 BEMH riposted:

>>@178/Cecil
>>Re: Have you been *watching* this show for the last five seasons?

>What exactly are you implying? Not that I need to justify myself but the answer to your question is "Yes, I have diligently watched the last 5 seasons, each episode at least twice, and own all on DVD.

Sorry, I guess that came across a little snide, which was not my intention.

It refers to the fact that on this show EVERYBODY LIES (and withholds information) ALL THE TIME. It struck me as a little naive to state that 'it must be so because John Locke said it was so.'

It reminded me of a scene in Galaxy Quest where a fan is swept up in a real-life outer space mission at the request of aliens who think the intercepted transmissions of their cheesy Star-trek-like series are documentaries, and recruit these 'heroes' to come to their aid.

In one scene the stars are about to walk straight in to a mining camp to retrieve a 'berylium sphere' to power their spacecraft, when the fan holds them back saying "Did you guys ever actually WATCH the show?" - knowing that there would be hidden danger lurking in the camp.

I guess I ws trying to recreate that moment. My apologies for not making the [attempted] humor more obvious.

#192. Posted by: Cecil at February 3, 2010 5:20 PM

Any Deadwood fans out there? Loved seeing the interpreter late in episode 2 (Sol from Deadwood) and Jacob's rival (Silas from Deadwood).

If Al Swearengen shows up, we're all in trouble...

#193. Posted by: Lost Nuggets at February 3, 2010 5:22 PM

P.S. I'd probably believe anything Hurley said (as long as it didn't involve food hoards) on simple say-so, but not another soul in the show.

#194. Posted by: Cecil at February 3, 2010 5:22 PM

Oh, one last thing - there is an ongoing discussion (as I'm sure you've read) that perhaps Locke said he went on the walkabout when in fact he didn't. It just isn't know for sure if he did or not. Logic would state that he'd get the same response this time around as the first, but this being Lost and all logic may very well be out to lunch and for some reason they welcomed him with open arms this time. With Hurley having had a "lucky" life to date when we know he was cursed the first time around it certainly isn't out of the possibility. The point is we just don't know at the moment

I do hope you appreciate my responses and take them for what they are - discussion points, not criticism. I believe we're all here together to have a great time and each speak our own opinions knowing they'll be accepted, corrected when appropriate, and occasionally joked about in a harmless and fun way, without it devolving into shout-downs or insults as it does on some other boards/blogs. I'm sure pretty much everyone here feels the same, and I know we've grown into a very well-heeled and friendly community. I'd like to think we can all continue by the virtues we've (Mac has) worked so very hard to cultivate here.

#195. Posted by: LostedIt at February 3, 2010 5:23 PM

I thought that the conversation between Boone and Locke on the plane was just paralleling what actually happened on the island.

Boone did stick with Locke when the plane crashed, but unfortunately it was the death of him.

So that could imply that there are two universes occurring at once (ie parallel dimensions) that we're seeing. Or we could simply be seeing this because in the end it'll end up that the two paths/worlds will merge.

It makes me wonder though if the rest of the party (Locke(evil?) and now Saiyd's(good?) will end up against one another or if they'll form their own camp away from the two warring forces.

#196. Posted by: Silhouette at February 3, 2010 5:24 PM

@193 Lost Nuggets,

In previous seasons, Coleen Pickett (shot by Sun) and Juliet's sister were also from Deadwood. Big fan here.

#197. Posted by: Cecil at February 3, 2010 5:26 PM

But if Locke went of walkabout - he would still be there - not on 815.

They sent him home before it started - which landed him on 815.

Boone never saw Locke onload or offload in the wheelchair - so Locke just fed chatty seatmate Boone a little white lie - about what he wanted to do in Australia, not waht he really did.

#198. Posted by: DocH at February 3, 2010 5:28 PM

Why did Locke almost have an embarrassed look on his face when they brought him his wheelchair? You think he was just lying to Boone and hoping he wouldn't see him in the chair. It's almost like Locke knew a life where he didn't need that chair and didn't want anything to do with it.

#199. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 3, 2010 5:36 PM

I'm having a hard time believing Sayid is now Jacob, only because where does that leave us with who Ben really is? And it seems so obvious that I'm forced to think the LOST writers would have something a little more off the wall up their sleeves. Plus I'm not convinced that Jacob and MIB are wholly good or bad because we haven't seen this play out in the characters on the show (with maybe the exception of some of the supporting cast).

#200. Posted by: reLOST at February 3, 2010 5:37 PM

@#199. Remember that Locke is highly frustrated. Mom/Dad are frauds, Helen dumped him, no date for the Australia trip, whipping boy at the Box Factory, denied walkabouts. EVERYONE tells him what he can't do.

It is as if everyone that landed at LAX was NEVER touched by Jacob in their earlier life.

#201. Posted by: DocH at February 3, 2010 5:44 PM

I think in many respects what could happen with the two realities is similar to a line from a song on House MD., "you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime you might just find you get what you need."

If the "non-crash" version continues all of the people on the plane appear to be heading towards worse situations than they had after the crash. Sure, Boone is alive since he never got to the island, but as CS Lewis says in the Magician's Nephew, there might come a time when life is worse than death. Or of course, if he is alive the question is can he merge into the other realty and remain alive.

I can envision (if the season were long enough) Jack operating on Locke and making Locke's life (and his own) much worse than it is.

So, I would imagine some reconvergence of the realities where the memories of everyone merge and they are largely better off (in a larger sense) and perhaps at some level then have the pieces of knowledge they need to fulfill what Jacob was talking about in terms of "progress" that is, this time it doesn't "end the same way."

And, of course, even without the crash, Widmore and all that entails still out and about and the Lamp station is still functional.

#202. Posted by: Dennis at February 3, 2010 5:50 PM

@201. Remember when he said that people keep telling him what he can't do and that they are actually right. It seems that he has accepted his fate, but then still feels ill towards it even though he's been in a chair for a while.
I guess I'm reading too much into it. probably just a way to link Locke to Jack.

#203. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 3, 2010 5:50 PM

@bouds #186

yes, jack did take only one bottle from cindy this time and on kimmel last night TPTB said this was not a coincidence.
hmmmmmm...

#204. Posted by: flegma at February 3, 2010 5:59 PM

Ah, the devil (MIB) is in the details:

We know that Smokey's lair was inside the Temple wall. That's where Rousseau's crew was taken and transformed; and where Sayid was taken to be healed. Also occupying the Temple are the Others. The Others had no problem running around the underground passages, capturing Sayid's MASH unit and bringing them to the Temple. This shows that the Others and Smokey were living together in harmony at the Temple.

Now, after the Others at the Temple heard Jacob was dead, the immediate reaction was PANIC. Ash around the grounds to ward off Smokey's attacks.Firing off rockets and grabbing arms: The reaction was like defending the palace from a coup.

And as tangent in looking up the word, there is a historical North American Indian word "coup" which means the act of touching an armed enemy in battle as a deed of bravery or an act of first touching an item of the enemy's in order to claim it. Add another item on the Jacob touching theory pile.

#205. Posted by: welh at February 3, 2010 6:00 PM

Others, Losties, Tailies, Hostiles, Freighter Tots, Widmorians, Paiksters...

can we call last nite's new group - The Templetons - ?

#206. Posted by: benlinus-maleBeyotch-atyourservice at February 3, 2010 6:13 PM

Nice review Mac! Glad to see this back.

The 2004 timeline is destined to fail. I believe it will prove that they were always destined to go to the island. If they didn't (as we will see) then things fall completely apart for them.

Interesting that the bullet that hit Flocke looked *dented*. This may be the best reason for Alpert telling everyone not to shoot, as with that many bullets in 'richochet mode', it seems likely someone would get hurt. It may be that the 'smoke' is contained within, and somehow this makes Flocke super-dense.

Seems like a (pause) nano-cloud would do that quite nicely. Oh, right... they won't do that... or time travel...

Btw, in the underwater scene, that WAS the Dharma shark, right? Don't jump him!

#207. Posted by: The Duf at February 3, 2010 6:18 PM

@192/Cecil
Re: "It refers to the fact that on this show EVERYBODY LIES (and withholds information) ALL THE TIME. It struck me as a little naive to state that 'it must be so because John Locke said it was so.'"

If Ben said it then yes I would be naive, but I don't recall John being a liar. To me he is one of the most sincere on the show. I doubt he was lying to Boone, but we'll see.

Getting clear confirmation that this time around Locke actually did go on the walkabout would not be surprising in the least, especially since so many other things also differ on this 815 flight than on the original 815 flight. I am certain all of their circumstances leading up to the flight have dramatically changed. and no one can say with certainty that John didn't go on an earlier walkabout and is now just returning.

#208. Posted by: BEMH at February 3, 2010 6:22 PM

Dontchaknow this is the first place I came looking for LOST commentary?

I loved the episode. Liked Charlie's line: I was supposed to die. Jack looking for a pen to do an emergency trach on Charlie (remember the pilot where he sends Boone on a fool's hunt for a pen when Boone tells him he should do a trach?).

Mac - B&R Get a room. You still make me giggle.

#209. Posted by: Walker at February 3, 2010 6:42 PM

I officially agree with ALEX ANGEL (#96). He says:

"My theory is that there really isn't two timelines. Like Miles said. "IT WORKED". Basically the lostaways will figure out how to rewind time and then make it back on the plane. It's the writers way of showing us what happens when they get homes as opposed to spending the first eight episodes showing how they turn back time and next eight showing them solely off the island. They are trying to show us what happens when they finally get their wish, that in the end they will all be destined to be linked anyways and that the Island was just a quicker way."

The writers have used this concept before, when we see flashforwards instead of flashbacks. It makes a lot of sense too. We'll see the alternate 2004 timeline and wonder all season long how it ties in. We'll learn, in the final episode, or close to it, that it's the continuation of where we are at the end of the first half of this last season (which, because of the way they're dividing the season up, will also come at the end). They will prove or disprove Jacob's theory and then go back and experience life without the crash, and Jacob and the MIB will have finally reached the 'end' they spoke of and the island will sink (although it would have to sink at some point earlier in time... hmmm...).

ALEX ANGEL also said:

"As to Flockes home. I would guess it's the temple that Jacob probably kicked him out of and now he wants back home to the nice hot tub o' healing."

I think that's pretty interesting too. Not sure I totally agree but it's a great theory that may have some serious merit. Maybe there's something in the temple that allows Jacob and/or MIB to return to their real home in the heavens or wherever.

All I know is I think this is great fun and that it will all come together. I'm still desperately hoping they close up all the various plot lines out there but have a bad feeling they won't. I also wouldn't be surprised if they leave us with as many questions as answers.

#210. Posted by: badsmokeybad at February 3, 2010 7:25 PM

If Sayid was Jacob; the first thing he says upon waking up definately wouldn't be "What Happened" Sayid seems clueless and bewildered.

#211. Posted by: The Phylosopher at February 3, 2010 7:41 PM

The theory about "X" in LA X being a variable did not do it for me.

In mathematics, variables are denoted with lower case letters. example: f(x) .

Capitol Letters are more often used to represent Spaces or Sets of things, or the Greek Capitol letters like Sigma which is used for a repeated function to sum, so if the "X" here refers to the Greek Chi - perhaps a repeated function...

#212. Posted by: steve at February 3, 2010 7:47 PM

The scenes of the Losties landing at LAX and disembarking from the plane = amazing.

#213. Posted by: JJ at February 3, 2010 7:56 PM

@121/ransom - Claire wouldn't have been in that taxi if she were just arriving - she'd've been dropped off at departures. LAX is a BIIIIIIG airport - arrivals is far away from departures.

I believe Darlton are playing with us & purposely took Scarfy away. You did notice he wasn't in the credit?

I listed the forum I started at Delphi if anyone wants to chat there as well.

#214. Posted by: hurling at February 3, 2010 8:15 PM

Guess I did that wrong. Here's a tiny:

http://tinyurl.com/yfqals4

#215. Posted by: hurling at February 3, 2010 8:16 PM

good news-
my loophole worked,
i got to see the new episode tonight,
the first thing i do after watching any episode is to read mac's review which i always enjoy,
then i scroll down & see there are 5 billion comments posted,(exaggerated figure)
season 1 wasn't like season 2, season 3 wasn't like season 2.....

#216. Posted by: san at February 3, 2010 8:30 PM

Sun looked to have a Jack's hickey moment when she was asked if she spoke english by the Ana Lucia look a like customs agent.

#217. Posted by: lostsox at February 3, 2010 9:03 PM

LOST!!! So anyways I know a few have brought this up but just wanted to share again -> what if juliet had a similar experience as Desmond (when he turned the key) when she hit the bomb? N maybe travels to that other timeline where the plane doesn't crash and somehow meets up with the other people??

for instance when they were trying to bury her out of the rubble she seems to be quiet or actually maybe her mind travelin to other timeline at the moment just as Desmond would flip flop from the jungle to the other timeline where he tries to fix things with penny... crazy lol

#218. Posted by: Oscar at February 3, 2010 9:18 PM

In the Alt/LAX timeline, if Jughead sunk the island in 1977:

1) Penny was never born? Widmore may have died on the island before Penny was conceived.

2) Maybe Hurley is lucky because he won the lotto with different numbers - if Sam Toomey and Leonard never heard the cursed numbers being broadcast from the island to begin with.

3) Juliet never went to the island. She's alive and well, still taking care of her sister and working for her asshat ex-husband? Maybe she and Sawyer will grab some coffee soon.

Some other thoughts:

Why couldn't Ben take a dip in the temple jacuzzi to fix his tumor?

On the plane, is Jack slowly regaining his memory of the other timeline similar to how it worked for Desmond in the Constant? When Des woke up in 1996 in the puddle of red paint on his apt floor, it took him a few days to start piecing together his future "memories."

Is Desmond really on the plane, or just visiting/haunting Jack to spark his memory? On second viewing, I noticed Des was wearing a wedding ring.

How did Kate end up in that tree? Everybody else pretty much dropped where they stood, right?

#219. Posted by: Clementine at February 3, 2010 9:27 PM

It's kind of funny that they seem to be playing with the same separate alternate (yet both equally real and valid)universes idea that they used in rebooting Star Trek...
so the idea that these universes will converge in some way--much the way Nimoy Spock showed up in the new Trek--is plausible

#220. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 3, 2010 9:28 PM

If we're to believe that where Juliet's bomb went off is where Desmond's bomb went off, maybe they went off at the same time? I was thinking about that at work tonight (data entry gives the mind plenty of time to muse about such things).

But then again I haven't kept up with LOST as religiously as others hehe so I could be wrong with the 2004/2007 time line that now seems to exist.

I also thought that since Desmond is the constant then Juliet would be the variable? Hm.

#221. Posted by: Silhouette at February 3, 2010 9:29 PM

Was it stated in this episode why Kate was in hand cuffs? Do we assume it is for killing her father, or did the Marshal say she did something else?

#222. Posted by: Rudy at February 3, 2010 9:30 PM

Just thought I'd check in. This website is now blocked at work (they couldn't wait another 3 months? GRRRR).
The best line of the night was Sayid's: "What happened?" That summed up the whole episode.
I liked that Sawyer took out 4 goons while Jack tried to slap fight just two.
I hope the split timelines thing gets resolved quickly. It seems like a cop out for everyone to fall into their old roles. And Jerky Jin sucks.
The Bomb Survivors (Bombers?) seem to have met alternate timeline Others. Dr. Candle is now Nameless Japenese Guy (it is actually Dogen, yet another philosopher's name). Will he claim Miles as his son? Wasn't the hippie the guy that Ben had out in the field that made 'truth serum'?
And how come Cindy knows everyone? It was great to see her scarf buddy, ARZT, be arrogant again!

The biggest question is: who's coming?

#223. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 3, 2010 9:32 PM

I didn't see anyone else talk about this (sorry if I just missed it) but Desmond and Jack met in the stadium well before they were on the island. When they did meet in the hatch I thought they recognized each other after a minute (am I correct on that). If they remembered each other in the Hatch - which was plane crash + a number of days - why didn't they remember each otheron the plane?

#224. Posted by: opserc at February 3, 2010 9:36 PM

@#224 I was also thinking about that too. I was hoping they'd mention if they met before, but it seems in that time line they haven't. Hm.

Also, I was hoping Richard would say Evil Locke's name when he said 'You!'. Haha, but no...it's LOST. What was I thinking? =)

#225. Posted by: Silhouette at February 3, 2010 9:56 PM

@224 - I thought the same thing. They should have recognized each other.

Way too may good theories, I still want the answers to Faraday's, "the light is different down here." comment.

That was one honkin' of an ankhin'

#226. Posted by: onelostdude at February 3, 2010 10:22 PM

Does anyone watch JJ Abrams other show, Fringe? It is also about parallel universes. Coincidence?

#227. Posted by: Christina at February 3, 2010 10:28 PM

Re: Ilana. Anybody have theories about Ilana? The recap show implied that Ilana was a follower of Jacob while she was off-island. Do we know why she was in the hospital or how long it took her to heal and get to the island?

Flocke asked if they were Jacob's body guards. Any theories on why he would say that?

Re: The jacuzzi and Sayid's resurrection. Rousseau said that the person who was healed in the temple wasn't the same person afterward. Richard said that if Harry Potter Ben was healed he would always be one of them. I wonder if the jacuzzi re-animates the body but doesn't bring you back to life (undead). Maybe Richard has been through the process which is why he doesn't age? Did anybody notice if the kids from Flight 815 had aged when they were in the scene with Cindy at the temple?

#228. Posted by: obsessed at February 3, 2010 10:51 PM

@188 (and all other relevant speculators) - When Jacob said "they're coming" he must surely mean the aliens. Isn't this whole thing some kind of alien experiment? Or maybe he meant the Sentinels. Maybe this whole thing is another version of the Matrix. It's has always seemed that some form of Purgatory best fits the puzzle pieces we've been given but TPTB have stated clearly that this isn't the case (unless, of course, they are lying, much like their characters do constantly). So it's got to be aliens. Gotta be. ;-)

@207 - I disagree about the alternate future being destined to fail. I think it's the end but it's being interwoven now.

Love your idea about the nano-cloud. That would explain the mechanical sound effects always used when smokey comes around.

@208 (and all relative posts) - I just assumed Locke was lying when he said he went on the walkabout. Old Locke was embarrassed about his condition. Seems logically consistent with his character then to make the small white lie and say he did something he didn't. Maybe there's more to it and maybe he DID go. Time will tell.

@219 - Great thought about Juliet never having gone to the island. It's possible. That would be a very happy little ending moment for me, to see Sawyer and Juliet meet (assuming alternate Sawyer has cleaned up his act).

Another great point you made: why couldn't Ben take a dip in the Temple jacuzzi to heal his spinal tumor? That's a good one - one of those things that I'm afraid will never be addressed.

@224 - It's possible that Jack and Des met each other at the track and Jack sort of remembers but Des doesn't. Things like this happen all the time in real life. You meet someone at a party for two minutes then see them again six months later, recognize them, but have no memory of where you met.

General question: why does everyone seem to hate Jack so much? And Kate for that matter?

I'm sure going to miss LOST once it's gone. It's so fun to speculate about all this stuff.

#229. Posted by: badsmokeybad at February 3, 2010 11:03 PM

LA X stands for two timelines. LA and X (as in X marks the spot, the island) and the space between them just represents the two timelines.

X is the island. The same spot they have been on before.

#230. Posted by: lost_me at February 3, 2010 11:20 PM

#205. welh: excellent comments on why the Others would go from peaceful co-existence with Smokey to full-on panic.

Presumably, since Jacob brought everyone to the island (against MIB's wishes), he also offered them his protection.

No more Jacob=no more protection, and the balance of power has been destroyed. The fact that they had defensive precautions so readily at hand suggests this dynamic was common knowledge among the Others.

Elsewhere...

...Lots of analysis re: LA X. I've seen here and elsewhere a comparison to comic book mythology, where an "Earth X" represents an alternate reality of our own earth- that seems more likely than X standing for the number 10, although I like the earlier suggestion that X= variable.

...Based on the dress of the Temple residents, doesn't it seem like we're being led to the Others as Black Rock survivors? Temple waters (unbloodied version) conveys some sort of immortality?

...not sure that because Locke described his experience with Smokey as "beautiful", that necessarily means he was Jacob rather than MIB. In the Pilot Episodes, Smokey was almost right on the beach the night of the crash- the only time we've seen/heard him approach the beach camp so closely.

Perhaps he was "scanning" the survivors for the appropriate candidate (as a parallel, Locke's vulnerability to persuasion as shown in his interactions with his father was identified by the police when they targeted him in the commune sting).

Locke= easily persuadable+feels connection to island= perfect target for Smokey/MIB manipulation.

...lots of posts re: why the Others "need" bodies, with Evidence A being Amy's dead husband. What we didn't know last year (but know now, thanks to season 5 DVD), is the details of the Dharma-Others truce. Richard needed Amy's husband's body to preserve the truce (i.e., "they killed two of ours, but they payed with one of theirs").

I don't believe there has ever been any evidence or suggestion in the show that they needed that body for any other more nefarious purpose.

#231. Posted by: Mizzed at February 3, 2010 11:23 PM

I just finished reading ALL the comments and am so impressed with the observant theories here that I want to give kudos to the ones that really surprised and made great sense:

@130. Posted by Deebo “…Sayid was healed at the temple so he now has the ability to kill Flocke…That’s why Ben can kill Jacob because he was healed at the temple.”

@137. Posted by Clementine: “ Richard said he could save (Harry Potter) Ben, but he would lose his innocence and “always be one of us.” Uh, did Sayid just get baptized as an “Other?”

@146. Posted by ealgumby “Ben released Smokey to attack Keamie et al by draining away water…If the island is underwater in the “815 no crash” scenario/timeline, does that mean MIB is dead/trapped somewhere under all that water?”

@159. Posted by Kompletely Lost “Just before Juliet began banging on the bomb Miles' dad said something about hitting an energy pocket. Maybe the bomb never went off and that the energy in the pocket was released instead. If that bomb went off Juliet would have been blown to bits and the bomb crater would have been level to the bomb…whatever went off was above Juliet and left most of the hole she was in intact.”

@173. Posted by glostover “I am intrigued about Flocke wiping the bloodied (and huge) dagger on the carpet, then cutting out the corner with the blood on it. Didn't we see that fragment pinned to the inside of Jacob's cabin in a prior (future?) scene? I wonder what its significance is?”

@179. Posted by LAM “…did anyone notice that hurley has a red shirt on? Is he our next lostie to go?”

@186. Posted by bouds : “Possible meaning of LA X: X signifies the variable in math. La = "the" in Latin. So it means The Variable, which goes back to the episode of the same name about changing the future using human free will as the variable.”

@188. Posted by: Cookie - An island that can submerge & resurface explains how the Black Rock got "beached" so far inland…”

#231. Posted by: Mizzed “...Based on the dress of the Temple residents, doesn't it seem like we're being led to the Others as Black Rock survivors? Temple waters (unbloodied version) conveys some sort of immortality?”

And so many more, more, more...

#232. Posted by: freckles at February 3, 2010 11:36 PM

@219 Clementine:

I'm right there with you on your thoughts regarding the island sinking in 1977. In fact, if the island was destroyed in an atomic explosion in the Incident, the mind reels with new ramifications:

If Penny was never born because Widmore is killed, then Des would have a pretty strong motivation to try to correct the timeline.

BTW, if Widmore is killed in 1977, so is Hawking, which means Daniel Faraday is never born.

And while Sam Toomey can't hear the numbers and Hurley can't learn them in the hospital, he can still randomly win the lottery. No cursed numbers=no cursed life= luckiest man alive.

Ben would be dead, killed as a child, as would Ethan.

And as you pointed out, Juliet would be alive and well in Miami, but her sister Rachel would be dead, having never been cured by Jacob (unless her cancer was given to her by island forces to leverage Juliet to the island in the first place).

And since we've already seen cancer given (Ben) and taken away (Rachel), was Rose's cancer relapse also Oceanic V.1 related? Perhaps she is truly in remission now, and has just returned from a happy, healthy honeymoon Down Under.

Richard Malkin's daughter doesn't need to miraculously die and then recover to deliver Yemi's message to Eko, meaning Eko doesn't need to be on that flight, either.

And speaking of miraculous recoveries, Claire's mother doesn't need to go into a coma (only to magically reawaken after the original oceanic flight crashes), and Claire could be in LA for any number of to-be-revealed reasons.

In fact, a revised timeline might remove the need for all of those timely car crashes-

Locke's mother carries him to term, and is not hit by that car. While he is still pushed out the window by his father, his childhood is far more centered living with his mother than an eternal round of fostercare, leading to a happier, wiser Locke (who still gets pushed out the window...)

Micheal doesn't need to be hit by that car, so Walt never leaves the country= no Walt and Michael on the Oceanic X plane.

Adam Rutherford doesn't need to die in the car crash with Sarah, so Shannon gets an alternative timeline which does not involve returning on the Oceanic flight.

And if above is true, Jack never meets Sarah, doesn't wig out over the relationship, isn't as heavy a drinker (1 bottle from Cindy, not two), etc., etc. Christian can still die in Australia from other circumstances, and this divergence can also explain Ana Lucia's absence from the flight.

Essentially, if I'm a Lost writer, I can use the divergent timeline to explain away any and all missing actors who either wouldn't appear (Shannon, Eko), couldn't appear (an 8 ft Walt), or wouldn't be allowed within 10 miles of the Lost set even if we jumped to fifty divergent timelines (Ana Lucia).

#233. Posted by: Mizzed at February 3, 2010 11:56 PM

I think the two alternate universes or timelines we see are actually of the same timeline. Here are some points I'd like to note:

1. The stewardess says that she recognizes them from being on the "first" plane. Implying that there is a subsequent plane. I believe that they will crash land on the island on another flight.

2. I believe the bomb went off but before they could die, the screen went white. They traveled in time preventing them from dying. The submerged island we see at the beginning is somehow a result of the bomb, but I believe that something will happen to revive the island so that they can crash land on it again.

3. Showing how both "story lines" we see converge to be the same story line is something that Lost producers would do.

4. It's plausible that the more current timeline we see is real because the bomb changed the future. For example, when previous island inhabitants visited the temple, there were no "pirates." But in the new future, due to the bomb going off, pirates occupy the temple. And the current Lost crew is oblivious to everything that happened because they skipped through time.

5. Desmond being on the plane is possible because the bomb caused Desmond to not crash on the island and have to keep the electromagnetic force at bay by keying in the numbers.

6. I think Jack's dad's coffin and John Locke's knives lost luggage are somehow related.

Interesting questions are:

Is there a link between the pirates we see at the temple and the "pirate ship" we see when Jacob and Smokey are talking where Smokey tells Jacob how much he wants to kill him.

How did Juliet know that the bomb worked?

What do you think?

#234. Posted by: John at February 4, 2010 12:17 AM

I think the two alternate universes or timelines we see are actually of the same timeline. Here are some points I'd like to note:

1. The stewardess says that she recognizes them from being on the "first" plane. Implying that there is a subsequent plane. I believe that they will crash land on the island on another flight.

2. I believe the bomb went off but before they could die, the screen went white. They traveled in time preventing them from dying. The submerged island we see at the beginning is somehow a result of the bomb, but I believe that something will happen to revive the island so that they can crash land on it again.

3. Showing how both "story lines" we see converge to be the same story line is something that Lost producers would do.

4. It's plausible that the more current timeline we see is real because the bomb changed the future. For example, when previous island inhabitants visited the temple, there were no "pirates." But in the new future, due to the bomb going off, pirates occupy the temple. And the current Lost crew is oblivious to everything that happened because they skipped through time.

5. Desmond being on the plane is possible because the bomb caused Desmond to not crash on the island and have to keep the electromagnetic force at bay by keying in the numbers.

6. I think Jack's dad's coffin and John Locke's knives lost luggage are somehow related.

Interesting questions are:

Is there a link between the pirates we see at the temple and the "pirate ship" we see when Jacob and Smokey are talking where Smokey tells Jacob how much he wants to kill him.

How did Juliet know that the bomb worked?

What do you think?

#235. Posted by: John at February 4, 2010 12:20 AM

I found the episode in which Locke describes the monster to Eko. In the episode Further Instructions, Locke says the monster he saw was a "beautiful white light" - this is a quote, and implies to me that there is a white monster and a black monster.

Jacob wears white- MIB wears ... well black obviously. Smokey is black- so it's not a leap to assume Jacob can take the form of another monster that appears as a white light.

#236. Posted by: Moirae at February 4, 2010 1:00 AM

Skipper is baaaack!!

@#199. Remember that Locke is highly frustrated. Mom/Dad are frauds, Helen dumped him, no date for the Australia trip, whipping boy at the Box Factory, denied walkabouts. EVERYONE tells him what he can't do.
It is as if everyone that landed at LAX was NEVER touched by Jacob in their earlier life.
#201. Posted by: DocH at February 3, 2010 5:44 PM

Locke still had to be touched by Jacob or he wouldn’t have lived through that fall from the window. Right?


Btw, in the underwater scene, that WAS the Dharma shark, right? Don't jump him!
#207. Posted by: The Duf at February 3, 2010 6:18 PM

LOLLLLLL!!!! BAHAHAHHA!

#237. Posted by: Skipper at February 4, 2010 1:16 AM

I think that the Losties are successful in changing the events of the past and making it so that they never ever reach the island in the first place.... I think they do "something" (win the war that Widmore was talking about, perhaps) to make everything change and they end up in LAX as planned.... I think we haven't seen that "something" happen yet. We thought it was going to be Jughead's explosion that did it, but that's not it. I think that we're going to spend this season watching events that lead up to another "incident" that causes the island to be under water and the losties to never crash. I think what we're seeing in the 2004 scenes has not happened yet and the writers are using this style to save time in telling the entire story. I think we'll see another "incident" and it will explain what the Losties did to get back on that plane headed to LAX. I wouldn't be surprised if what we saw on the plane is actually the last episode of the season and that's how the story ends.

#238. Posted by: Skipper at February 4, 2010 2:09 AM

@229 et al - Ben shouldn't have gotten the tumor if he was still in the island's good graces. Therefore, a magic Jacuzzi wouldn't cure it.

Everyone here doesn't hate Jack & Kate, only a few people who enjoy stating it every week. Personally, I'm enjoying the 4-way love interests. It's like watching kids at summer camp. I also like the way Jack the Superdoc isn't perfect, and we didn't know what side Juliet was on, not realizing she was imprisoned by Ben. It'd be a pretty boring show if it was just cute good guys against ugly bad guys.

@67 Laura - I was thinking the same thing, but maybe Hurley figured if the temple would heal him, there was no time pressure. Also, they were trying to save Juliet - he wouldn't have valued one person over another.

@126 - RNM, didn't you recently get married? Do you mean……..? You sly dog! Only your charm could win Scarfy's heart.

@179 - haha redshirt! Actually, I thought he looked a bit thinner.

@202 - Wow, Dennis, that's a Rolling Stones song from 1969. I'm guessing you weren't born yet? I agree with you on Jack & Locke - you'd think a spinal surgeon would know that some cases are incurable. Reminds me of Alec Baldwin in Malice: "You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God."

Questions: 1) MIB is the guy Jacob was talking to? For awhile, some people were calling him Esau. I missed the switch.
2) Where did "asshat" come from? Is that a morph from assclown?

Also, I thought the best line wasn't a line. It was the look Miles gave Hurley when he told dead Sayid to stop by if he needed to talk.

#239. Posted by: hurling at February 4, 2010 3:38 AM

Here's an awesome split-screen comparison of Jack in the Pilot vs. LAX:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-1qzelSWpE


@Skipper/238: "I wouldn't be surprised if what we saw on the plane is actually the last episode of the season and that's how the story ends."
I like the idea that the incident which will "reset" the timeline hasn't occurred yet on the island, but I can't believe the LAX scenes are the end. I think Damon/Carlton will end the show on a more positive, hopeful note.

#240. Posted by: Clementine at February 4, 2010 3:42 AM

@233 - I think Mizzed is on the right track - it seems to explain everything and also supports the idea that the alternate 2004 timeline we're seeing will actually be what comes to pass (this timeline and the 'current' timeline we're also following will connect up at the end of the show). It just feels like a LOST kind of thing to do. It feels right so that's where I'm placing my bets.

@239 - thanks for answering the Ben question. I think that makes sense. And glad to hear not everyone hates Jack and Kate. I also enjoy the love rectangle (although it seems we're back to just a love triangle at the moment). I think seeing Sawyer's complete transformation due to getting the love he always needed from Juliet was a really nice thing. Their relationship was one of my favorites of the whole show.

@240 - I also love the idea that them getting off the plane at the end of this episode is actually your series final moment. The only problem for me there is that we wouldn't get to see Sawyer and Juliet meet in this resolved timeline (assuming they meet in LA - if they meet in Australia then that's different).

#241. Posted by: badsmokeybad at February 4, 2010 4:10 AM

@233 - I think Mizzed is on the right track - it seems to explain everything and also supports the idea that the alternate 2004 timeline we're seeing will actually be what comes to pass (this timeline and the 'current' timeline we're also following will connect up at the end of the show). It just feels like a LOST kind of thing to do. It feels right so that's where I'm placing my bets.

@239 - thanks for answering the Ben question. I think that makes sense. And glad to hear not everyone hates Jack and Kate. I also enjoy the love rectangle (although it seems we're back to just a love triangle at the moment). I think seeing Sawyer's complete transformation due to getting the love he always needed from Juliet was a really nice thing. Their relationship was one of my favorites of the whole show.

@240 - I also love the idea that them getting off the plane at the end of this episode is actually your series final moment. The only problem for me there is that we wouldn't get to see Sawyer and Juliet meet in this resolved timeline (assuming they meet in LA - if they meet in Australia then that's different).

#242. Posted by: badsmokeybad at February 4, 2010 4:13 AM

@ #239 hurling: Yes, married in May. My wife is super cool and isn't intimidated by my past neck-wear relationships. But she's gonna be upset that my Valentines Day gift isn't lingerie but a sweet lacy scarf!!

#243. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at February 4, 2010 7:47 AM

Hey guys, I didn't get through all the posts, but I just wanted to point out, the fact that we don't see Shannon, and we do see Desmond, would lead us to believe that the timeline has changed from 1977. Thus, by the time we get to 2004 there are differences.

#244. Posted by: db at February 4, 2010 8:06 AM

Good Grief . . . when I left this blog yesterday morning there were 38 posts and now 244 and climbing! However, #184 (Lost2theworld) - Thanks for offering up a well deserved scream. Par for the course - 244 postings & only 47 original thoughts. :-)

ANT"X"?

Adding to the primal scream repertoire is the exasperated sigh:

phuuuwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww . . (under the breath) givemeabreak.....

Consider this new addition "public domain".

Good to see a lot of goldie oldie names back for the endtimes.

[Note: Newbies, don't get mad and call me names. This is posted all in fun. We go thru the same thing EVERY season! It's a rite of passage here . . . ]

#245. Posted by: davidrh at February 4, 2010 8:15 AM

@115/166- Locke's walkabout. I just kept wondering if Locke was lying to Boone to cover the painful disappointment of being denied by a snarky Australian guide. I wouldn't put it past pitiful Locke to create an alternate reality that's more pleasant than the current reality...i.e. My dad wouldn't use me for a kidney. Honest.

#246. Posted by: lardiea at February 4, 2010 8:28 AM

Another thought on Ben not using the pool to heal his tumor:
Maybe you can only be healed once...

I dunno. Not feeling like this will end up being anything important and I won't lose any sleep if we don't get an official answer.

Also we know the statement from Rousseau that the person who was healed in the Temple wasn't the same after, and we're speculating that Sayid has been changed in some way. If being healed in the Temple changes you fundamentally in some way then why wasn't Ben changed. He did not seem appreciably different fromt he Harry Potter version he was before healing. It seemed he could logically grow into the adult Ben we knew all along whether he had been healed in the Temple or not.

#247. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 4, 2010 8:57 AM

@Clementine / 240 -- Thanks for that video! I just updated the post to include it.

#248. Posted by: mac at February 4, 2010 9:10 AM

#247. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 4, 2010 8:57 AM
Another thought on Ben not using the pool to heal his tumor:
Maybe you can only be healed once...

I dunno. Not feeling like this will end up being anything important and I won't lose any sleep if we don't get an official answer.

OR - Maybe you have to have a note/pass from Jacob before using the "healing pool"? When Harry Potter ben was brought to the Others for healing, Widmore was against it until Richard said, "Jacob wants it done." And now we see the Japanese guy ordering that the Losties be killed until Hurley says "Jacob sent me." So, maybe the reason Ben didn't get his tumor healed at the day spa was because he didn't have a hall pass from Jacob?

#249. Posted by: Skipper at February 4, 2010 9:11 AM

@247. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes

re: Ben + heal pool

Hmmmmmmm - I dunno about the use once thing. When the english hating Temple leader cuts his hand, I think he was expecting it to heal. Do you think that was his first time checking out the pool?

Assuming that this is how young Ben Potter was healed, it makes me think of the linkages. Young Ben was shot by Sayid. Who shot Sayid? Was it just a random Dharma gunner at New Otherton? Ben stabs Jacob.

I like the idea that the healed Sayid might have a little bit of Jacob in him. It's just odd that he visits the pool that was used to save a boy that he had shot.

re: Rousseau

I think she meant anyone who went near it was changed. I don't think all of these people were actually healed - if anything, smokey killed them, and was impersonating. This was the likely the case for the guy who had his arm ripped off! But who knows - maybe the other french team members were dipped in the pool. My impression was that they didn't allow just anyone to dip into the pool....

#250. Posted by: shikotee at February 4, 2010 9:31 AM

@ 250 - If I remember correctly Ben's dad shot Sayid. So, what goes around comes around - sortof.

#251. Posted by: dk at February 4, 2010 9:51 AM

#214. Posted by hurling...

I thought about Claire at Departures vs. Arrivals. Tho I've never been to LAX (space or no space), I have been through O'Hare a few times, which is fairly good-sized also.

My thinking was that Kate went through a Security door, up some stairs, down a couple of hallways...she could've gone anywhere.

I just don't remember seeing Claire on the plane. I saw Frogurt and I saw Arzt, just not Claire. I'm not saying she was or wasn't...she may well have been...just that I didn't see her. Anybody know for sure? Screen cap?

#252. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 4, 2010 9:55 AM

@251. Posted by: dk

I thought it was Roger who shot Sayid, but was not 100% sure. I remembered he is the one who notices Sayid and Jack, but still can't say with certainty that he was the one who actually shot Sayid.

According to the internets, Roger was the one who shot Sayid.

I guess time will tell if any of this has anything to do with why Jacob decides to intervene with Sayid...

#253. Posted by: shikotee at February 4, 2010 10:15 AM

Locke summarized the entire series when he said "The airline didn't lose your father, they just lost his body". This to me means that their bodies are what's left on the island. They all seem so down and glum about being there, but there spirits are what landed in LAX.

#254. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 4, 2010 10:23 AM

Lost; a show like no other. What other television program in history has fluent and flawlessly intertwined drama, mystery, suspense, philosophy, religion and time travel into one show, and done it so well fans only want more. Of course what makes Lost so addictive is the non-linear way the story unfolds. The way answers are hinted at repeatedly but not realized until a later date; making it also one of the best shows to re-watch (sometimes the second time is better than the first).
Now, finally, Season 6 (the Final Season) is upon us and answers will be found; along with a plethora of new questions to drive us crazy. The premiere episode, LA X, was to some disappointing, but to most, yet another way to tell a compelling story.
To understand this season there are key points from past seasons that must be addressed and put together, like a puzzle, to make sense of what we should prepare ourselves for in the coming months.
First: John Locke is dead…and they mean dead dead, like Niki and Paulo. The man we see now as John Locke is the Man in Black (MIB) who sat on the beach next to Jacob in the beginning of the Season 5 Finale, proclaiming aloud how much he wanted to kill him, but couldn’t. What most don’t realize, is that MIB has been with us since Season 1; yes, Season 1.
Which brings us to point number Two: do you all recall a Dr. Christian Shepard (Jack’s Dad) whose body was in the cargo of Flight 815 only to start popping up everywhere on the Island? And John Locke’s dead body was in the cargo of Algera flight 316, only to later walk the earth. Are these two the same? Is it a coincidence? Let’s examine. Christian showed Sun the Dharma picture of Hurley, Kate and Jack in the 70’s, explaining that Jin is there too. Later that episode Locke returned, sitting on the beach wearing a cloak. Since then Christian hasn’t been seen….and it’s not a coincidence. Christian was in “Jacob’s Cabin” at one point, but of course now we know that it was never Jacob’s cabin, it was the MIB’s prison {Jacob resides in the Statue}.
Point Three: Ben has never seen Jacob and only received orders from him on pieces of paper after Richard’s meetings. How Ben stumbled upon the cabin and showed it to Locke we will probably never know (unless it was the MIB’s will), but Jacob was never there, it was where the MIB was trapped; the circle of soot held him there. Richard has never been to the cabin and brought Locke/MIB, straight to the Statue, trekking all by beach, not the jungle.
Number Four: When Alana and her team went to the cabin we clearly see that the circle of soot is broken, symbolizing that the MIB broke out, aka, took the form of Locke. But why wasn’t the MIB able to kill Jacob as Christian? For one, Locke had a communion with the Island that Christian wasn’t even close to having; all he had was connections to the various other people on Flight 815. Second, he didn’t know how to get to Jacob and as Locke he could get Richard to show him exactly how to get there. And third, as Christian, he could never persuade Ben to kill Jacob. It wasn’t a coincidence that the MIB, as Locke, told Richard to tell himself (Locke) that he had to die to bring the others back and save the Island. Then Christen shows up in the frozen cave and tells Locke, “That’s why they call it sacrifice,” after Locke tells him that Richard said he had to die. The MIB told Richard what to say to Locke, then the MIB (as Christian) reiterated it in the cave, convincing Locke. MIB knew if Locke died the others would come back, bring back his body and he could commandeer the image and life of John Locke, aka, his loop hole.
Which brings us quickly to Richard. Jacob is dead. So what does this mean for Richard? Richard doesn’t age because of Jacob (he says, “Jacob made me this way” in the Season 5 Finale). Could we see Richard start to age, will the powers of Jacob last or does Richard need to take sides with the MIB to continue not to age? It’s too early to tell, but MIB did knock Richard out, throw him over his shoulder and walk away with him. This could mean so many things it’s not even worth theorizing. One key point of information about Richard we did learn was that he asked, “You?” when MIB walked out after the firework went off. This could be because of the firework, because the Others know of the MIB or, hopefully, because Richard has been around so long that he’s seen the MIB when he was THE Man In Black on the beach; perhaps Richard arrived on the boat that was floating off the coast that Jacob and MIB were talking about; MIB negative, Jacob positive.
As for Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Saiid (the new Jacob???) and Miles, I’ll discuss that tomorrow in my next post….look for it.
If you have any questions just post ‘em, I’ll try to get back.
- Drags

#255. Posted by: Drags at February 4, 2010 10:53 AM

I do have to wonder........


Did all time travelers from 1977 get zapped back to 2007?

That is to say - did 1977 hermit Rose and Bernard get sent back to the future?

I can picture Rose cussing, and blaming it all on the shenanigans of Jack and co.

If they got left behind, my money is on them being adam and eve skeletons.

Which also makes me wonder - where did Charlotte's body end up? Is it stuck in the time where she dies, or did the body make it back to 2007?

#256. Posted by: shikotee at February 4, 2010 11:25 AM

Mac? . . . Mac? . . . Did you..lose your job? . . . Or did we just pass into a parallel universe . . . you know, like Filmfonder "X" . . ?

:-)

#257. Posted by: davidrh at February 4, 2010 11:28 AM

That would be FilmFODDER "X".

duh.

#258. Posted by: davidrh at February 4, 2010 11:30 AM

I like the explanation that the only reason ben could kill jacob was because he was in the water as a kid... which was why they need sayid back in time to shoot him...

#259. Posted by: muvrshakr at February 4, 2010 11:51 AM

At the end of last season, I speculated that Jacob touching various characters was a way to reconstruct himself if he was killed by MIB. The Eye Of Horus was used a form of ancient Egyptian fractional notation, each of the parts of the eye representing a different fraction. The parts of the eye were divided as follows:

* 1/2 was represented by smell,

* 1/4 was represented by sight or the sensation of light,

* 1/8 was represented by thought,

* 1/16 was represented by hearing,

* 1/32 was represented by taste,

* 1/64 was represented by touch.

These fractions were used as the basis of all medicine and prescriptions. In math, they add up to 63/64; so it was said the last 1/64th was Thoth's magic.

I thought that Jacob touching six people may be a clue that he was hiding one his six traits in them, to be re-combined like Osiris' body parts when the "touched" 815ers are all reunited in the same time and place, to be reconstructed at a sacred place or time by a spiritual priest (Dogen?) It could have occurred at the Temple except Sun was missing.

When ghost Jacob visited Hurley, Jacob saw Sayid dying and had to think hard and fast what his next move would have to be: he said Sayid had to go to the Temple to be saved. Recall, Jacob brought Locke back to life after the 8 story fall, then apologized for what Locke was going through. I think Jacob knew then that Locke was MIB's major piece in the loophole puzzle. But Jacob could not bring Sayid back to life because he himself was killed by Ben. Only the Temple spring could do that, but it had "risks." Maybe one of those risks is that Sayid would turn on him like Ben did.

I also considered why Jacob touched certain individuals. Besides reincarnating himself, he may have also been collecting those individual's major personality traits (ninja powers) to be used in the final battle with MIB. For example:

Sawyer: cunning
Kate: ability to escape
Jack: healing
Jin/Sun (a couple is considered one): love (which conquers all)
Sayid: fighting skills
Hurley: luck.

#260. Posted by: welh at February 4, 2010 11:53 AM

Eloise must be on "Team MIB" because she wanted everyone to go back to the Island INCLUDING Locke - she insisted that Lock's body goes on the plane when she took Jack aside for his one-on-one meeting. She also said that Locke had to wear something of Christian's. Widmore wanted Locke to take the O6 back to the Island as well, so we can assume that he's "Team MIB", too.

Poor Ben. He has really been kept in the dark on all of this. I mean, he must feel so stupid - He thought HE was the one in control and that HE was the one doing the manipulating and calling the shots. when this whole time he was just being used as a minor character in a much bigger plot. This thing is bigger than Ben thought - bigger than we all thought. The war is comin' Y'all!

#261. Posted by: Skipper at February 4, 2010 11:53 AM

@255 Drags
That is an awesome recap and seems to really put together the things we've seen. Thanks. The thing I keep wondering is when did MIB break through the circle of ash around the cabin. If he was trapped there then how was he able to appear as Christian all around the island and how was he able to show up as Smokey all the time? Also it seemed as if Smokey/MIB resided in the wall around the Temple. Some of these things are still confusing me, but I thing you're on the right track pulling it all together.

@250 shikotee
Yeah that pretty much puts the kibosh on a heal once theory. Makes sense the others' leader has done that many times.

And I think you're right about Rousseau too. Did she even say anything about healing? Wasn't it just after going down into the Temple wall and encountering Smokey that they were different? I don't remember that episode well enough.

As far as Claire, I think they purposefully didn't show her on the plane so it would be a surprise when Kate got into the cab with her. I would presume she was on the plane but who knows? This show doesn't follow any rules so who can predict what's going on? I'm lovin' the trip it's taking us on though...thank goodness it's back for this one last season. Hope it lives up to the previous five.

#262. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 4, 2010 12:03 PM

I haven't caught up with all the posts so I don't know if this topic has gotten stale but....there was debate over which was good or evil, Jacob or MIB. Remember when Ben took Locke to meet Jacob? The cabin was surrounded by ash which indicates that Ben, Richard etc were trying to contain Jacob & keep him from moving around the island freely. That sounds like what you'd do to something evil. Also, on a side note, what are they the ashes of?

#263. Posted by: Cookie at February 4, 2010 12:08 PM


Random Observations:

*===================

@227 Christina asked:

>Does anyone watch JJ Abrams other show, Fringe? It is also about parallel universes. Coincidence?

Not only watch it, I blog it for mac's TVFodder network (Also House and Survivor). Click my name below for a direct link to the Fringe blog. And I've commented on the similarities, as you'll note in the brief preview for tonight's ep "Jacksonville."

Incidentally, tonight's ep is being billed as the "Winter Finale" and apparently Fringe is scheduling this year like S-3 Lost, split into two solid blocks. No definite word on the return date, but my sources think it'll be in early April.


*===================

@230 lost_me enthused:

>Love [the] idea about the nano-cloud. That would explain the mechanical sound effects always used when smokey comes around.

I do too, only D&C proclaimed 'that ain't it' loudly when fans lept at the idea. I kind of think it might have been if fans hadn't speculated so promptly.

*===================

@233 Mizzed said:

>wouldn't be allowed within 10 miles of the Lost set even if we jumped to fifty divergent timelines (Ana Lucia).

How so? They had Michelle Rodriguez back for an S-4 guest shot, after all. (pulling over fugitive Hurley - "Libby says 'Hi!' ")

#264. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 4, 2010 12:41 PM

@263 Cookie
"The cabin was surrounded by ash which indicates that Ben, Richard etc were trying to contain Jacob & keep him from moving around the island freely. That sounds like what you'd do to something evil."

I was under the impression that the Others used the ash to encircle someone who is to be protected, not so much to imprison an undesireable.

Elana and Bram are shocked to find that the circle was broken. the protection was no longer in effect and as his bodyguards they go into action.

Bram tries to circle himself with ash to protect himself from smokie, but he leaves his center of gravity too high and splat!!!

The Others at temple quickly encircle the place in ash for protection when learn that Jacob is dead.

#265. Posted by: steve at February 4, 2010 12:50 PM

More Random Observations:

*===================

@255 Drags asserted:

>Later that episode Locke returned, sitting on the beach wearing a cloak. Since then Christian hasn’t been seen….and it’s not a coincidence. Christian was in “Jacob’s Cabin” at one point, but of course now we know that it was never Jacob’s cabin, it was the MIB’s prison {Jacob resides in the Statue}.

I think we have seen Chrstian since Flocke emerged, and outside the cabin, too. Isn't the scene when Sun and Lapidas canoe over to the main island and find Christain waiting for them in the deserted Dharma rec-room after Flocke's emergence?. And he told them they'd have to see John Locke about getting to where Jin was (1977). A little later, Ben shows up with Locke. Don't think we ever see Christian and Flocke at the same time.

Excellent post, BTW.

#266. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 4, 2010 1:06 PM

its a minor point but the fact that jack's hair and rose's hair are different, and cindy gives jack just one bottle instead of two like in the original - they have to be clear indications that things are much different in the 2004 world that they would have been before. Hence Hurley being lucky, boone being sisterless etc. Things have still changed, the losties just have to figure out what and come back together.

#267. Posted by: keviv at February 4, 2010 1:12 PM

Only read the first 50 posts, just so you know. I'll catch up eventually :)

Where did Nemesis go when Ben was with Sun at his former house? Did he go to the path beneath the wall to break up the floor there, so that Ben would fall down? So he could pretend to go look for rope, while he sneaked into the weird thing with the little holes?
Or was he really surprised to hear about Ben's encounter with his dead daughter? The way he told Ben how it feels to blindly follow someone and reminded him of their first encounter at the hatch, it all seemed so convincing. He's either a very good actor who can read the memories of the dead, or it was really John (John's soul in Nemesis' body), being steered by Nemesis without realizing it. Believing that the Island was speaking to him. Maybe Nemesis only fully took over when he came face to face with Jacob.

#268. Posted by: Mischa at February 4, 2010 1:49 PM

Mischa--that has puzzled me as well. There were many interchanges where it really seemed it was John talking to Ben where he didn't seem to know things that you would think MIB would have known. It does seem like some essence of John was still there somehow. Hope they give us some explanation for that.

#269. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 4, 2010 2:10 PM

5-year lurker, 1st time poster. @255 - drags, thank you for codifying the Lost tidbits that have been floating aimlessly through my gray matter and writing them down! Here's a few of my own:
- Jacob & Esau (MIB) - How and how long? Have they both been there the same amount of time? What is the power that Jacob seemed to have over Esau & why was he chafing so strongly at the bit?
- Smokey - Just what are you? - How & how long? Man-made or a force of nature or a combination? At times Jacob, Esau, Richard, Ben and maybe others (Mr. Friendly?) have seemed to have some sort of control over you. Now that Jacob's dead Dogen & the Templetons seem to fear you're "out of the box" or is it Esau's power over you they fear?
- The Spring - Was Sayid's resurrection its last because Jacob is no longer living to call upon its powers? Is Sayid's revival incomplete or doomed because the water wasn't clear? By Lennon's remark I'd assume it has never been unclear before.
- The Ash Circle - As mentioned @263, it's seems to be used for protection of what's inside. If Esau was surrounded by it in the cabin was he being imprisoned or protected? Was it his cry for help? Was it his power, not Jacob's that allowed the Losties to see Christian & Claire? Maybe it's not all Black & White, but tinted with shades of grey.
- "You..." - That guyliner gaze and reaction to fLocke's chains remark spoke volumes - at least an episode's worth! I expect to see a Black Rock-centric flashback episode featuring Esau and/or Richard.
- @264 - FRINGE - Yes! Walter Bishop is my favorite character on TV! I'll be visiting, Cecil Rose.

#270. Posted by: robinpiney at February 4, 2010 2:47 PM

I just watched the pilot episode again and when Jack, Kate and Charlie find the cockpit, enter it and then later Kate turns back looking for Charlie, there is a brief shot of a dead passenger who looks a lot like Jacob.

#271. Posted by: normanarnold at February 4, 2010 3:18 PM

@270 -- Jacob & Esau -- According to the Bible, Rebekah received the prophecy that twins were fighting in her womb and would continue to fight all their lives, and after they became two separate nations. The prophecy also said that the older (Esau) would serve the younger (Jacob); its statement "one people will be stronger than the other" has been taken to mean that the two nations would never gain power simultaneously: when one fell, the other would rise, and vice versa.

@270 -- The Spring -- From various sources on the Internet regarding the ankh (which was in Hurley's guitar case and held the list of names):

The ankh was the Egyptian hieroglyphic character that read "eternal life".

The Ankh Cross represents life (immortality) and death.

The best summary of its meaning is future life, life after death.

While the origins of the ankh may be obscure, the meaning is certainly clear - "life".

The ankh may represent the life-giving elements of air and water. It was often shown being offered to the king's lips as a symbol of the "breath of life." Chains of ankhs were shown poured out of water vessels over the king as a symbol of the regenerating power of water.

#272. Posted by: harms at February 4, 2010 3:30 PM

The Ankh as meaning Life After Death. I like it goes along with my idea that the title "LA X" stands for Life After death See post #174

#273. Posted by: steve at February 4, 2010 4:25 PM

when Ben and Locke went to the cabin - didn't Locke ask Ben if he heard the person say "Help me"? Could have been mib if he was being kept there against his will...

#274. Posted by: juliagoolia at February 4, 2010 5:01 PM

Just throwin' this out there -- What if MIB/Smokey IS Jacob, that they're one and the same but inhabiting different bodies after getting split between two alternate timelines like our Losties (only to somehow reunite in the same timeline in these different bodies). Perhaps they're two halves of the same person and the primary timeline guy is good and the alternate timeline guy is evil and managed to get himself reborn or Fountain of Youthized in this other body. And let's call it a convention of the show that you just cannot kill yourself. But since the dark half found a loophole in which someone else killed his alternate timeline other self, he was able to rid himself of that pesky good guy alternate timeline guy who did not want to go home (except of course the good guy half knew in advance that he would be killed and planned accordingly).

Nosebleed....

#275. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 4, 2010 5:02 PM

Okay, I just can't get past the spiritual parallels. MIB=Satan(and Flocke). Jacob=Jesus. Satan can't kill Jesus himself. Finds a loophole - Jews kill Jesus. MIB finds loophole - Ben kills Jacob. Jacob "resurrected" like Jesus. I know there's more to it than this but it's just way too similar. Don't laugh but I had always thought of Richard Eyeliner as a Gabriel-type character. What confuses me is the "Glad to see you out of your chains" comment by Flocke. Gotta think a bit more about that one - but not now. My brain hurts.

#276. Posted by: Sly at February 4, 2010 5:21 PM

@ badsmokeybad - 229
"General question: why does everyone seem to hate Jack so much? And Kate for that matter?"

I'm not sure if you meant why WE hate them so much, or if the characters on the show hate them so much... but I'll tell you why I do.

I hate the way Jack breathes. I hate how he's so arrogant and self-centered. I hate how he always thinks he's right about everything, close-minded, and is also always fickle-minded. I hate the way he always has to FIX things (but the reason I hate it is because he does this for himself (selfish reasons), as opposed to doing it to help his patient. He's always all over the place, and judges people (Locke) so quickly.

Kate is just annoying. She's always being stupid. Like that time she pretty much TOLD Roger she had something to do with HPB's kidnapping. What a douche. She is also very fickle-minded. Like when she told Jack how she didn't want him to ever ask her about what she did with Aaron, then said she "liked the old him"... and oh god, it was so annoying when she told Jack to stop trying to save Sayid, because "he's gone".

They're just so annoying.

But most of all, I hate how they are significant characters, and the show couldn't really do without them... gaah.

#277. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 4, 2010 5:25 PM

@ Mizzed - 233

Wow! Nice!! =] Just had to say that... I am impressed. Great theory and explanation for our missing Losties aboard Oceanic 815... part two.

#278. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 4, 2010 5:36 PM

@277 ILBLXX unburdened herself thus:

>I'm not sure if you meant why WE hate them so much, or if the characters on the show hate them so much... but I'll tell you why I do.

>I hate the way Jack breathes. I hate how he's so arrogant and self-centered. I hate how he always thinks he's right about everything, close-minded, and is also always fickle-minded. I hate the way he always has to FIX things (but the reason I hate it is because he does this for himself (selfish reasons), as opposed to doing it to help his patient. He's always all over the place, and judges people (Locke) so quickly.


You were probably amused, as was I, in the recaps of flight 815 Mark I, where Jack assures Rose that everything will be all right, and the plane immediately falls apart.

FORESHADOWING!

#279. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 4, 2010 5:39 PM

@ shikotee - 256
"Which also makes me wonder - where did Charlotte's body end up? Is it stuck in the time where she dies, or did the body make it back to 2007?"

If I remember correctly, Daniel said her body disappeared when they flashed through time again.

and I forgot what post it was, but Roger DID shoot Sayid. I remember it so vividly because I noticed it during my re-watch of season 5.

@ Cecil Rose - 279
Haha, yes... I was amused when Jack assured Rose that everything will be fine and then they crash. HA! That was a major crunching in his face.

He also kept looking over at Rose all confused as they were going down. Maybe he felt bad...

But definitely foreshadowing! =]

#280. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 4, 2010 6:00 PM

Couple of things not found here so far:

Juliette's first words before they actually got to her was "it didn't work." Was Miles lying when he said that she said "it did work?" What was Miles reading when Hurley whispered to Sayid to talk to him if he ever wanted to? Miles head was shaking before Hurley said anything. His head always shakes when he is making contact with the dead.

Why was cabbie sleeping if he had Claire as his first fare before Kate?

Why is Dharma shark still swimming around submerged island unless the whole universe (as they know it) is still the universe that contained the island experience?

#281. Posted by: tesla at February 4, 2010 6:01 PM

Curious thought, but perhaps there is no dual timeline.

The 2004 plane lands at LAX as scheduled.
The group now exists in 2007.

Perhaps some other means (ie, investigating Christian's missing body) will spark another series of events that will somehow result in these people getting to the island in 2007 (Ajira flight).

LA X I think does not refer to the Roman numeral for 10. Instead I think it is a literal 'space', as in a space inbetween. Analyses of Shakespeare's works tend to focus on these spaces inbetween (Macbeth: 'when the hurlyburly's done; when the battle's lost and won'; Hamlet: the Ghost is something in between life and death; various references to shadows, fog, and mist, dusk, twilight and dawn, noon and midnight) as specific moments that have some undefinable and unresolved crises.

There is a boatload of 'stuff' that happens in that space inbetween.

#282. Posted by: Gumbo at February 4, 2010 6:26 PM

@282 Gumbo posited:

>Curious thought, but perhaps there is no dual timeline.

>The 2004 plane lands at LAX as scheduled.
>The group now exists in 2007.

>Perhaps some other means (ie, investigating Christian's missing body) will spark another series of events that will somehow result in these people getting to the island in 2007 (Ajira flight).


I've been trying to come up with some sort of scenario like that, too, but I keep coming back to the fact that they're wearing the same Dharma clothes in th same condition they were in 1977, and Sayid is quickly bleeding out.

#283. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 4, 2010 6:48 PM

@265 Steve - I haddn't thought of it from that perspective, that the ash circle was for protection rather than detention. Good point.

Off on another tangent again... We've heard both factions refer to themselves as "the good guys". What if it isn't good v.s. evil but rather 2 different opinions on how destiny should play out. One believing that, "what will be will be". The other believing that fate must be manipulated to achieve the optimal outcome.

#284. Posted by: cookie at February 4, 2010 7:24 PM

As long as I'm here

CHARLIE MUST DIE!!!! If all is to be well.


Ashes of what???? Repel Smokey.

#285. Posted by: cookie at February 4, 2010 7:30 PM

When Sayid came back from the dead, it seemed to me that he probably did so as a Jacob avatar. The clues were (1) Jacob sent Sayid to the Temple to be saved, (2) the pool unexpectedly had changed color, probably Jacob's doing -- the color may well have been Jacob's spirit waiting to be infused in the next bather, and (3) the Island's healing properties may well be Jacob-related.

If this theory holds true, we can look forward to a Sayid vs Locke subplot as a continuation of the Jacob vs Man In Black subplot.

#286. Posted by: Thoan at February 4, 2010 8:15 PM

I haven't read all 285, but re: Shannon and others not on the plane, Jack's different hairdo, Hurley's luck, and other differences, everything that happened from 1977 on changed ever so slightly. We don't know exactly why, but the explosion of the Swan must have changed things. Desmond hadn't been born yet, and if Penny was his twin, then she may or may not exist either in the new timeline. Charles Whitmore and Eloise Hawking may never have made it off the Island to tinker with people, and we can say the same about visits to losties from Richard Alpert, Jacob, and others like Michael Abbadon and Mr. Friendly. All of these events probably changed things in minor ways (such as Hurley not being affected negatively by the numbers and Sawyer maybe being a decent person) but somehow most of the people on the plane still lived until 2004 in similar circumstances.

#287. Posted by: bushhound2 at February 4, 2010 8:21 PM

quick question: Did Richard interact with anyone other than Locke and Juliette off-island?

#288. Posted by: 74 aka Steve at February 4, 2010 10:27 PM

@281: You can almost make out "It worked" (sounds breathy and digitized) as the last sounds before Miles gets up from Juliet's grave.

Sure, there's a bias if you're listening for that phrase, but there's pretty clearly no extra syllable.

#289. Posted by: LockeBox at February 4, 2010 10:48 PM

I think the isalnd is underwater because of what Ben did at the end of season 4. Everyone remember it disappeared when they left the freighter? I think Desmonds been special ever since turning the key and possibly ever since that happend I think the alternate reality was created. Not the jughead. There was a bunch of crazy stuff that happened in season 4 that wasn't explained yet.

#290. Posted by: Marcus at February 4, 2010 11:01 PM

@davidrh #245...no problem, we all have to pitch in. phuuuwwwwww. I like it!

@ILBLXX FYI...I will forevermore be preoccupied with the way Matthew Fox breathes no matter what his role. It makes me want to rewatch a couple of episodes of Party of Five to see if it has always been a problem. Maybe he's allergic to some exotic Hawaiian plant!? Just a thought. Also, Michael Emerson was robbed at this year's Golden Globes. I was yelling at the TV when he didn't win. Absurd! Evil Ben needs to return soon, though. I miss/love him.

#291. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 4, 2010 11:30 PM

mac, this may have been noted somewhere in the 288 comments above (i didn't read them all), but here goes ...
My take on the Smokey attack on Mr. Eko is that since Eko is living a reformed life with what seems to be a new spiritually Christ-centered drive of sorts, inherently "good" and is therefore a threat to "evil-doers".

Other Mental Note ... with the introduction of a clean Oceanic 815 LAX landing in 2004 and Jack seemingly coming out of a stupor, I really hope that this doesn't turn into some St. Elsewhere plot drop dump at the end of a great story.

#292. Posted by: Paradigm_Shifter at February 4, 2010 11:35 PM

A few tidbits from Lostpedia that I thought were interesting:

Sayid's passport at LAX is Iranian (not Iraqi)

When the female security agent at LAX is asking Sun if she speaks English, she refers to her as "Ms. Paik" (Sun's maiden name)

When Miles is communicating with dead Juliet, the sound effects are airplane engine and turbulence sounds (from Alternate 815?)

Nameless Japanese Leader actually has a name - Dogen. His name was given in the official recap, but not yet on the show. The producers said he holds an important key in the series.

This was included in the casting call description for Lennon:
"He is a wily negotiator who is far more powerful than it seems from his position...."

"When viewing the address shown on Jack's business card (8444 Wilshire Blvd) on Google Map's Street-View, you can see a film crew. It is not clear if this is a Lost-related shoot. The Street-View image at the intersection of Wilshire and Hamilton also appears to have been recorded at a different date than the surrounding four sections, as evidenced by the changing text on the nearby marquee and the disappearance of the crew."

Blooper:
When Hurley and the others enter the tunnel under the Temple, after Hurley says "this is gonna be awesome", a can of soda can be seen on a ledge behind Kate's torch.

#293. Posted by: Clementine at February 4, 2010 11:44 PM

@264 Cecil Rose:
"They had Michelle Rodriguez back for an S-4 guest shot, after all."

You're right of course- I was merely using humor to point out that actor/actress problems sometimes determine future plot developments.

@255 Drags: some comments:

"Richard has never been to the cabin"

How do we know that Richard has never been to the cabin? He clearly knows MIB, and presumably understands the dynamic b/w Jacob and the Nemesis. Bram and company went directly to the cabin, so I'd suggest Jacob's followers knew exactly where it was.

"Could we see Richard start to age, will the powers of Jacob last or does Richard need to take sides with the MIB to continue not to age?"

There seems to be multiple levels to the Others- recent additions like Mikhail, Pickett, etc., and more long-term members such as the temple guardians. It almost seems too obvious (which in Lost terms probably means wrong), but the Black Rock survivors granted immortality by Jacob and the temple waters seems to fit just right.

If so, the temple waters are what enables all of Jacob's followers there not to age, not just Richard. Richard essentially serves as the liason with the "lesser" Others, helping to pick their leaders and shuttling messages from Jacob. If Ben had never met Jacob, it's quite possible that previous leaders- Hawking, Widmore, etc., hadn't either.

Whether Jacob's death means the now bloodied/muddied waters are no longer the fountain of youth remains to be seen.

"This could be because of the firework, because the Others know of the MIB or, hopefully, because Richard has been around so long that he’s seen the MIB"

Based on the immediate reaction of the temple group, there's no question that the people there know who/what MIB is and that he presents immediate danger.

@249 Skipper

"maybe the reason Ben didn't get his tumor healed at the day spa was because he didn't have a hall pass from Jacob?"

Or maybe because he believed he got the tumor FROM Jacob? Ben was clearly off-balance when Juliet delivered his diagnosis.

#294. Posted by: Mizzed at February 5, 2010 12:00 AM

So..........

I wanted to comment on this previously, but wasn't quite sure of what I wanted to say. I've now had a chance to re-watch, and things are a little clearer.

I'm wondering about how much info was passed on to the leader of the Others, and more specifically - Ben. Was he really their leader, or was he just being used? It seems like he was in the dark about many things.

He knew of the Temple, but I get the impression he was never allowed to hang there. When Flocke lead him down below to be judged by smokey (aka himself), Ben was not on familiar territory.

More importantly - Ben seems genuinely oblivious to the fact that Jacob had an enemy/nemesis. How else can you explain how easily he was convinced to kill Jacob.

And yet - the Temple Others seem to totally be aware of Jacob's enemy. When Hugo informs them Jacob is dead, everyone in the Temple goes to defense mode. As the doors are being baracaded, Lennon tells Hugo that this is not to keep them in, but to keep "him" out.

The scene shifts to Flocke and Ben, where Ben asks him "What are you?", leading to the whole return home thingy.

Anyways - going back to Ben's tumour and why he didn't use the heal pool - perhaps his pool pass expired after his initial use, and he was simply never let back in?

#295. Posted by: shikotee at February 5, 2010 1:41 AM

I think the Mr. Eko storyline is almost as insignificant as Ana Lucia, because my understanding is the actor wanted off the show (that is, real life affected the story.) I read somewhere that TPTB's biggest regrets are having to kill him off without recast, and the Paulo-Nikki debacle of season 2.

In the "wheel submerging the island" scenario. This is possible as well. When Ben moved the wheel to make it disappear, I don't think anybody died, they just started skipping through time and space. (In fact Mrs Hawking pointed out in the LA hatch that the island was always moving through time and space. That means at anytime between the "flash" in 1977 and 2004 that the remaining islanders (if any) could have lived, and the wheel submerged the island at a time before the plane passed over.

As we know from the radio song Hurley and Sayid listened to in season 1, and from events in season 4 (such as the doctor showing up dead BEFORE he actually died and the timer from Faraday's test missile), "island time" is not in sync with "real world" time, and as Hurley said, its not a question of "where are they" and "when are they."

#296. Posted by: bushhound2 at February 5, 2010 5:37 AM

I commented at #271 that an apparently dead passenger in the cockpit discovery scene from the pilot episode looks like Jacob. No one posted any response. I also note that the smoke monster appears shortly after the brief shot of this person. And that the plane's pilot reports that radio contact was lost. The dead person may be the radio operator and not just a passenger. Was this the way Jacob brought the plane within the island's circle of influence?

#297. Posted by: normanarnold at February 5, 2010 9:14 AM

I had a random thought that is probably way off base but would love to hear your thoughts.

What if Matthew Abbadon (sp?) is the off-island manifestation of the MIB/Smokey? I'm trying to remember who we saw him interact with other than Locke and Naomi. This is where my memory is not serving me well. If we only ever saw him communicate with those two, it would fit because the freighter folk were up to no good and he was bringing Locke back as his loophole. Was it Ilana and her crew, the "good guys", that shot him on Jacob's orders? Did we see who shot him?

Am I way off base?

#298. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 5, 2010 9:44 AM

If anyone's interested, Doc Jensen over at EW dot com has an excellent article on the season premiere of Lost. I'm not saying it's better than Mac's, just a helluva lot longer.

Also, maybe Juliet's exploding the bomb was like pulling the plug in the bathtub and the island just sank. Or Matthew Fox' breathing so contributed to global warming that ocean levels rose...

#299. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 5, 2010 10:39 AM

Not sure if this has been brought up at all yet ..but did anyone else notice the strange look on Jacks face when he looks in the mirror on the plane..its almost like he didn't expect to see that face in the mirror.This is right before he noticed he was bleeding on the neck.If you remember when Faraday got off the sub when he returned to the island he was bleeding from the same spot on his neck.I wonder if these to incidents are conected.

moog

#300. Posted by: dave mcgown at February 5, 2010 10:40 AM

First of all, I admit I've been very slow to board welh's Egyptian Magical Mystery Afterlife Train. Having said that, I think there's real evidence that welh has been closer to sniffing out the true Lost path than the rest of us.

Warning: the rest of this post is not for anyone who dislikes long posts or attempts at a Big Honking Unified Theory of Lost.

We've been mislead into seeing the battle of Jacob vs. Smokey as Good vs. Evil. Instead, it is the battle between Life (Jacob) and Death (Smokey), with the island serving as a portal or balancing point between the two.

Why is Jacob an avatar or god (little "g") for Life (big "L")?

He lives in the base of a statue of Tawaret, a goddess of fertility. His symbol is the ankh, a symbol of life. His sanctuary is a temple of healing (and perhaps life sustaining) waters, and hieroglyphs there match those at the FDW which D&C have described as "resurrection".

He is a healer (Locke, Rose, Rachel, Ilana, etc) and a layer of hands. Unlike his nemesis, he communicates directly to the living (important point). Although he is a weaver of human destiny, calling people to himself and the island, he is a firm believer in free will, human choice and redemption.

His self-made tapestry features the Eye of Horus, the all-seeing eye and a symbol of protection, surrounded by a sun disc, representing the sun God Aten, a symnol of life and prosperity (per the enhanced commentary from the episode).

The tapestry also contains the phrases in greek "May the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires" and "may the gods grant thee happiness".

Like the Phoenix, his body disapears in flames, perhaps to be resurrected or reborn. In ABC's official recaps, he has been described as a "spiritual presence that has been on the island for centuries", and the island is "in his command".

He is named after Jacob, the symbolic father (life giver) of the tribes of Israel, who is locked in combat with his twin (or opposing side) from conception.

Why is Nemesis/Smokey Death (big 'D")?

He lives underground, traveling the island through tunnels and vents under the surface. Its natural shape is a dark cloud, similiar to the references in the Book of Relevations of the "pillar of smoke".

Both the hieroglphys at the Swan and on the Ajira boarding pss have been translated as the "Underworld", while the secret door in Ben's house which leads to the summoning area has been translated on the DVDs as "grief".

The Smoke Monster is shown in a temple mural with Anubis, the god associated with death and the afterlife who judges souls on their path to the afterlife, and Smokey was referred to on the Swan door as Cerberus, the hound that guards the gates of hell.

In his smokey state, he is unable to communicate to the living. All communication is via the dead- Yemi, Christian, Alex, and now, Locke.

He may also communicate as the dead in visions, explaining his appearance as a dead Boone to Locke in the sweat lodge, and as the dead Ana Lucia to Eko.

The mechanical sounds of the monster have twice been heard just before Christian appears- once when Jack was chasing the ghost of Christian through the jungle, and again when Sun and Lapidus approached the barracks after the Ajira landing.

When Locke drugs Boone, he sees the Smoke Monster in a vision that foreshadows Shannon's death. The monster appears again in the form of spiders at the pseudo-deaths of Paoulo and Nikki which leads to their being buried alive.

His scanning of Eko has been compared to a life judgement, which played out in the scenes between Eko and Yemi/Smokey. After Eko's death, one of the inscriptions on his stick is shown as Psalm 23: "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death".

Jacob and Smokey can be seen as avatars, angels, or in pre Christian-Judeo times, gods. Given that the island is under Jacob's command, Death has literally been pinned or imprisoned on the island. His desire is to be released and allowed to go home, (i.e. the Afterlife).

Something unseen has occurred in the timeline that has allowed Death/Smokey to gain more power on the island, including the prevention of further Life being born on the island (Richard refered to this as a "novelty").

His method of escape begins with the literal killing of Life (Jacob), which seems to result in fouling the sacred waters of the temple, which help to sustain life on the island.

The shot of the island under water in this episode may indicate a scenario where Death/Smokey has won, suggesting that a happy life where Oceanic never crashes is a mistake and must be corrected.

If you believe that the series will end only when Jack, Kate, etc. find redemption and sacrifice their normal lives to save the Island (defeat death), then they have failed twice already- once when they left the island as the Oceanic 6, and again when they detonated Jughead at the Incident.

Both of those decisions have apparently played out very badly and to Death's benefit.

In fact, only Desmond has so far sacrificed his personal happiness and accepted his role on the island- Desmond who has been described by Faraday as 'special", and to whom the normal rules do not apply, the same character who was the only new addition to Oceanic V.2.

#301. Posted by: Mizzed at February 5, 2010 10:57 AM

@294 Mizzed

"If so, the temple waters are what enables all of Jacob's followers there not to age, not just Richard."

Ben was probably water bathed, but he ages.

#302. Posted by: mtncbn at February 5, 2010 11:17 AM

@173/glostover – “I am intrigued about Flocke wiping the bloodied (and huge) dagger on the carpet, then cutting out the corner with the blood on it”

Yes, I think this is important. It implies that the Jughead blast in ’77 has not just altered the timeline of those on the “no crash” 815 flight (2 vs. 1 vodka bottle, yadda yadda), but also the timeline of those on the Ajira flight.

Otherwise, how could Ilana, Bram, et al have gone to Jacob’s cabin and found the bloody piece of tapestry BEFORE Jacob’s death?

Makes me curious what else has changed in the “new” 2007 island timeline.

#303. Posted by: ealgumby at February 5, 2010 11:19 AM

Anyone expect Swayer next week to dig up Juliet and carry her corpse to the Temple pool?

And maybe Locke eventually too.

#304. Posted by: unHandyAndy at February 5, 2010 11:25 AM

#302/mtncbn - "Ben was probably water bathed, but he ages."

True enough, and since he ages, it implies he would still be vulnerable to disease, etc. even after being cured of his gunshot wound as a child.

It makes me wonder if Ben did not receive the fountain of youth result that perhaps Richard (and the rest of the other Others?) did, because he wasn't really "supposed" to be healed. Was it ever made clear why Richard agreed to heal little Ben in the first place?

After all, Richard was duped by Flocke into telling the "real" Locke he needed to die, and giving him the compass, etc. Perhaps Richard was likewise duped into saving little Ben, but as an unworthy recipient of the waters' healing powers, Ben was not granted (at least apparent) immortality like Richard.

#305. Posted by: ealgumby at February 5, 2010 11:27 AM

@301 Mizzed and @ lots of previous posts by welh

I am officially buying what you are selling. It all fits very well.

Using this theory as a basis I wonder how all of the dead islanders appearing to Hurley applies? Especially considering that a dead Jacob appeared to him too.

#306. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 5, 2010 11:31 AM

Re the many comments about Locke potentially lying about the walkabout thing ...

People seem to think of "real" Locke as honest, but that was (is?) hardly so ... he was quite deceptive all the way back to S1. Let's see, disappeared off into the jungle all the time with Boone to work on the hatch, and lied about it to the rest of the 815ers. Blew up the sub. Oh, and let's not forget the biggy ...

He lied about killing his dad! I think this one is sginificant, because it laid the pattern for MIB's eventual killing of Jacob; just like Locke, he "killed" his adversary via a surrogate. Locke used Sawyer, in a rather manipulative way, to kill his evil dad Cooper. Similarly, MIB used Ben, in a rather manipulative way, to kill (good/evil/neither?) Jacob.

#307. Posted by: ealgumby at February 5, 2010 11:33 AM

@301 mizzed, @ 306 lost2theworld, and all,thanks for the comments. Welcome to the minority view of LOST.

Over the hiatus I created a blog just to try to manage all my notes, speculations and comments that I have made over the years in order to distill some meaning from the events; it has turned into quite a brew.

For example, I have a new extremely long post on what MIB said to Jacob about how difficult it was to get to that point: an outline of moves MIB must have made in order to kill Jacob.

Oh, I also found a subliminal image of the Grim Reaper at the Temple during Sayid's drowning.

http://lostheory.blogspot.com

#308. Posted by: welh at February 5, 2010 11:45 AM

@290/Marcus - "I think the isalnd is underwater because of what Ben did at the end of season 4."

Interesting thought. Could also go a long way toward explaining the overly weathered appearance of the island buildings post Ajira crash, as someone mentioned earlier.

As an aside, the whole island disappearing thing has always bugged me, whether it really foomed away, or "merely" dropped beneath the waves. In that scene when it disappeared, there was a visible wake left behind in its absence. This is a nit, but keep in mind that devastating tsunamis can be created by shifts in the seabed of only a few meters ... the entire column of water from the bottom of the ocean to the surface amounts to a huge mass/volume, and initiates the wave which radiates outward, and eventually piles up on shore as the manifestation of that volume displaced into shallow water.

No matter how the island "disappeared," a massive tsumani would've resulted someplace after the fact, unless it was done in such a manner is to cause absolutely no disturbance (how? ... but anyway the ripple/wake we saw betrays that theory). Like I said, I know it's a nit, but still ...

#309. Posted by: ealgumby at February 5, 2010 11:45 AM

First time poster here. Great review and great comments from everyone! I will be following this post more closely from now on...

One thought i had... Does anyone remember in last season when Daniel is trying to explain changing past events he says something about, "A stream always flows in the same direction... sometimes it may split, but at some point it will always converge again." Obviously not an exact quote but it was something along those line. Just thought that this might forshadown that maybe our two realities will come together at some point in this season.

#310. Posted by: DriftShaft... YaDamRight at February 5, 2010 11:56 AM

@301/Mizzed - "it is the battle between Life (Jacob) and Death (Smokey)"

If so, I find it interesting that Jacob's apparent minions at the Temple have absolutely no problem with taking lives, evidenced by the execution order prior to Hurley invoking Jacob's name!

Lots of past evidence indicating Jacob's followers aren't necessarily respectful of life per se. Not to mention examples of Jacob himself (itself?) directly influencing events such that good people die (e.g., Nadia). For a god/whatever who ostensibly represents the life force itself, he seems rather cavalier with peoples' lives.

This is supposed to be a beneficent entity? Just not sold on that.

#311. Posted by: ealgumby at February 5, 2010 11:59 AM

@96/ALEX ANGEL - "Interesting how locke lost his knives and Christian is lost."

Random thought ... was the knife John picked off the table as a child, presented during Richard's visit, one of his "newly" lost knives?

#312. Posted by: ealgumby at February 5, 2010 12:04 PM

@255 - About MiB you say "What most don’t realize, is that MIB has been with us since Season 1; yes, Season 1."

I'm not sure why you say this. Of course we know MiB has been with us since the beginning. It's clear Jacob and MiB have been on the island for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years. People are brought to the island to help settle a debate between these two characters. You probably mean that we've encountered him directly in season 1 but again I think that's a no-brainer. Of course we did, or we at least encountered smokey in Season 1.

I also disagree that the cabin was MiB's prison. Several people are fronting this idea. The ashes have only ever been referenced as something used as protection. We've also apparently seen MiB around the island on various occasions when he should have been 'trapped' in the cabin. It doesn't track.

@261 - Eloise doesn't necessarily have to be on team MiB. Perhaps she knew that Jacob's team would need Locke's body there to prove Locke wasn't who they thought he was (himself).

@264 - That was me supporting the love of the nano cloud theory but I don't think that's the case anymore. I still love the idea of it but that would suggest that Jacob and smokey come from the future and I think in an interview somewhere TPTB said the sounds coming from smokey are everyday things that we could easily find. That would nix the nano cloud right there.

I wonder about TPTB though. It might well be in the best interest of the show for them to lie. If people figured out, correctly, by the end of season 1 or 2 that they're in purgatory then having TPTB admit it would greatly diminish the mystery and appeal of the show. There are other cases over the past few years where it would be in their interest to lie and mislead us as well. The odds are against the idea that no one has correctly guessed the direction of the show in all the time people have spent speculating about it. Clearly, from reading posts around the web regarding the show, there are some very intelligent people casting their attention towards the show.

I wouldn't be surprised if they had a general "deny deny deny" rule in place regarding Lost and only agree to let certain things out at certain times. In a nutshell, I don't trust anything they tell us in interviews. I trust them more now, since we're nearing the end of the show and they don't have secrets to keep for much longer but I definitely distrust anything I heard them say three or four years ago.

@277 - Interesting. I don't feel the same way about Jack and Kate at all but I can see where you're coming from. We've all met people that for some reason or another grate on our nerves. I've never noticed Jack's breathing before.

I think there's an element of tragedy to quite a few of Lost's characters. Kate is certainly one of them. She ruined her life when she tried to do something good for her mother. That would be a tough thing to live with and would confuse anyone, especially when you get nothing but negativity from the results of her 'good deed'.

Oh, and she's insanely cute so I like seeing her on screen as much as possible, hahaha.

Jack didn't ask to be the leader of the survivors. He is a take charge king of personality and the fact that he's a doctor, making him vital to the moments following the crash, sort of put him in a natural position where others would look to him for guidance. He has gone through quite a character arc. He went from flatly disbelieving Locke's theories of destiny to being completely lost to then flipping and believing Locke's theories completely. He's just not a lay-back-and-see-what-others-do kind of guy, which seems to be what you don't like.

I'm sure me saying this stuff isn't going to make you like them anymore than before, but I'm not really trying to change your mind. I'm just pointing out what I think is really interesting about these characters.

#313. Posted by: badsmokeybad at February 5, 2010 12:24 PM

@ lost2theworld - 291
"@ILBLXX FYI...I will forevermore be preoccupied with the way Matthew Fox breathes no matter what his role. It makes me want to rewatch a couple of episodes of Party of Five to see if it has always been a problem. Maybe he's allergic to some exotic Hawaiian plant!? Just a thought. Also, Michael Emerson was robbed at this year's Golden Globes. I was yelling at the TV when he didn't win. Absurd! Evil Ben needs to return soon, though. I miss/love him."

He had the breathing problem in "Vantage Point" as well. I blamed his character for the breathing before I saw this movie. After watching it, I realized, it's not his character as much as it is Matthew Fox himself. I guess it is a combination of the two, but I doubt he's allergic to something. =]

And yes, Micheal Emerson should have won. He is a genius. How could one act SO well?

#314. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 5, 2010 12:28 PM

Wow, I need to comment on my own post. I think I should have read over the paragraph regarding TPTB again. I'm taking another stab at that one. Here goes:

I wonder about TPTB though. It might be in the best interest of the show for them to lie/deny. If people figured out, correctly (hypothetically), by the end of season 1 or 2 that they're in purgatory, having TPTB admit it would greatly diminish the mystery and appeal of the show.

There are other cases over the past few years where it would be in their interest to mislead us as well. Odds are against the idea that no one has correctly guessed the direction of the show in all the time people have spent speculating about it. Clearly, from reading posts around the web, there are some very intelligent people casting their attention towards the show.

I wouldn't be surprised if they had a general "deny deny deny" rule in place regarding Lost and only agree to let certain things out at certain times. In a nutshell, I don't trust anything they tell us in interviews. I trust them more now, since we're nearing the end of the show and they don't have secrets to keep for much longer but I definitely distrust anything I heard them say three or four years ago.

Okay, that reads much better. Sorry, I just can't stand my own bad writing.

#315. Posted by: badsmokeybad at February 5, 2010 12:33 PM

Okay, go ahead, laugh - I am gonna throw this out there anyway -

"307. ealgumby - He lied about killing his dad! I think this one is sginificant, because it laid the pattern for MIB's eventual killing of Jacob; just like Locke, he "killed" his adversary via a surrogate. Locke used Sawyer, in a rather manipulative way, to kill his evil dad Cooper. Similarly, MIB used Ben, in a rather manipulative way, to kill (good/evil/neither?) Jacob."

What if Locke did not survive the plane crash at all? and his 'resurrection' was by MIB... haven't the producers said there was a very big thing that was missed by all in the pilot??

have at, lol, love to read the theories...

#316. Posted by: LostinVT at February 5, 2010 12:53 PM

Mizzed at 301 wrote:
“The shot of the island under water in this episode may indicate a scenario where Death/Smokey has won, suggesting that a happy life where Oceanic never crashes is a mistake and must be corrected.”

I would totally agree. But it’s not a scenario it’s a parallel universe/reality/ “sideways” world.

In one universe/reality 815 never crashes. However, we do know that there is a shared past with our story. Egyptians and Dharma still comes to the island as can be seen by the barracks and the foot statue. Bad things happen. The island is sunk. MIB (death) wins. But it has nothing to do with flight 815 actions. Flight 815 was never there. Perhaps it was due to Dharma drilling into the pocket of magnetic energy, with no one around to stop them, which caused the island to be sucked down like a worm hole to the bottom of the ocean. The relevance of this universe to our story will still have to be explained.

In our story’s universe/reality 815 does crash and everything we saw happen, happened. The 77ers did not prevent the future from happening ,but indeed, caused the incident just like Miles suggested. However, as a result of this massive magnetic energy/A bomb collision or perhaps from Eloise turning the FDW at the same time, they were phoomed to 2007. Jacob was the real variable in this world. He made a change in this universe. He touched our heroes, calling them to the island, and made the plane crash in this reality. In this universe/reality Jacob believes his chosen people will stop the MIB from winning and stop the island from sinking. Why that is important is anyone’s guess? Salvation of some sort I am sure…either of one’s own sole or the entire world.

Showing both worlds will allow us to witness the transference between the worlds. It will show us the ripple effect…one thing that is/was done in one world (on the island) will effect one thing that is/was done in another world (off the island). Was that what they were trying to show us with Jack’s nic on his neck? He seemed confused on how it got there?
I also believe that these characters will always been drawn to each other no matter what world they are in. Their fate is intertwined just like Jacob’s tapestries. So we will get to see how fate brings them together regardless of what world they are in. However, is that all that this parallel would will be for? To show us the power of transference and fate.

Perhaps, but perhaps, it involves someone crossing over from one universe/reality to another. Locke (be nice to see him get a second chance), Desmond (rules don’t apply to him), Sawyer (for love) , or Juliet (for love), or Walt (he was supposed to be special) maybe? Or to show how the LAX reality would play out now that MIB (death) has won. World chaos, The End of Days perhaps?

#317. Posted by: bizarro workman at February 5, 2010 1:08 PM

J Have read up to post 50.

So Jacob did not age. He could see into the future, and alter it to his liking by interfering with key events. He could bestowe at least some of his special abilities onto others, like Richard. Maybe this seperate 2004 timeline is the original timeline, what was supposed to happen. Perhaps we will find out that Jacob is watching them in that timeline as well. Maybe there was no reboot when Jughead exploded. We're just seeing a Jacob flashback or flashsideways or something. A timeline in which Jacob had not touched them (yet). A timeline in which some seem better off than they do now, some worse. A timeline in which something terrible happened to the Island. Maybe a timeline which will lead to catastrophe for more than just the Island, something that has been alluded to several times.

Jacob planned for some of our cast to be on that plane. Maybe he did the same with the Black Rock. But this time, with Oceanic 815, he wasn't the only one.

I think Richard does not want to face Jacob, because he is ashamed and afraid. Widmore, while leader, was 'tainted' by MIB. Somehow, they managed to 'reduce' Jacob's influence for a while. Richard, probably being suckered himself, betrayed Jacob. He rarely or never saw him again, only picking up the lists and such that were left to him on occasion. Ben was probably touched by Jacob at some point as well, maybe at the temple, after being shot.
He helped to wipe out Dharma, something that Widmore didn't want, and became leader. After being banned, Widmore remained in contact with MIB. So when the time came, he knew which people or person he had to get on that plane (Aaron?). I think Faraday, before returning to the Island, got his little look into the future from MIB as well, even though he didn't realize it at the time.

I'm just guessing ofcourse. There are probably several plotholes in there.

#318. Posted by: Mischa at February 5, 2010 2:12 PM

i have read as many comments as i was able to - then my eyes bled,
anyway,i think it is too easy to vilify MIB,
we have no evidence to support the theory that jacob is good & MIB is evil although this appears to be the way the 2 characters have been portrayed.
i believe that both are as bad as eachother & are willing to do whatever it takes to prove the other wrong.

#319. Posted by: san at February 5, 2010 2:16 PM

Well hello there everyone! Great to see y'all back here!

So far everyone's said pretty much everything I've got, but I wanted to just touch on something quick...

What if the paper inside's Jacob's ankh contains the same "list" of names that Ben had in season 2...eventually everyone on that list winds up at the temple, no?

And what if "dying" Jacob's warning/words "they're coming" is reference to the people on this list?

I couldn't tell ya what that might mean, but I thought I would throw it out there....

WGNABB!

#320. Posted by: Vikki at February 5, 2010 2:18 PM

Re: the cabin being a prison for MIB

I think we got that impression from when Ilana's team went to the cabin and saw that the circle of ash had been broken and said something to the effect that "he's out".
That seemed to imply the ash was meant to keep someone in. Assumed it was MIB or Jacob at the time but how could they be trapped in the cabin and still appear all over the island as dead people and as smokey and also appear off island to the 06? Maybe there's someone else who was in the cabin that we haven'tseen yet?
It would seem the ash was to keep Smokey/MIB in or out as Smokey seems to not be able to cross the circle of ash. Was there someone in the cabin being protected from Smokey/MIB by the ash or was the ash trying to keep MIB in? If it was imprisoning him then when did the circle get broken letting him out?
I don't know as the ash is specific to imprisoning or protecting. It would just seem that it is a barrier that Smokey can't cross.
I don't know--I'm rambling and very confused by this whole bidness...

#321. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 5, 2010 2:34 PM

@316 LostinVT

"What if Locke did not survive the plane crash at all? and his 'resurrection' was by MIB... haven't the producers said there was a very big thing that was missed by all in the pilot??"

I made a similar point in a previous post. I, too, believe that the MIB least began to "take over" Locke long before we suspected it. Locke's personality transformation once he arrived on the island was too drastic to be irrelevant.

@320 Vikki

"And what if "dying" Jacob's warning/words "they're coming" is reference to the people on this list?"

I like it. Put that together with the speculation of welh @260...

"I thought that Jacob touching six people may be a clue that he was hiding one his six traits in them, to be re-combined like Osiris' body parts when the "touched" 815ers are all reunited in the same time and place, to be reconstructed at a sacred place or time by a spiritual priest (Dogen?) It could have occurred at the Temple except Sun was missing."

...and you have an interesting concept. The Oceanic 6 is getting ready to reunite at the temple, "They're coming." This will enable Jacob to reanimate himself and defeat the MIB. Or maybe those 6 will be able to use what Jacob bestowed upon them to defeat the MIB.

I think if you put together the pieces/parts of everyone's ideas we are getting there. I love this blog!

#322. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 5, 2010 2:36 PM

While I'm sure that I will continue to watch Lost to the final end, the season premiere could have been much much better and perhaps answered a few unaswered questions (of which there are a ton). Maybe its better that this is the final season. Lost is becoming absurd at best.

#323. Posted by: Tony at February 5, 2010 2:41 PM

@320 - Vikki "What if the paper inside's Jacob's ankh contains the same "list" of names that Ben had in season 2...eventually everyone on that list winds up at the temple, no?"

I had a different take on the "list". My impression, and it was only an impression, was that the paper contained instructions for what the devoted were to do with someone named Sayid Jarrah. I felt that This was the reason why they asked what the losties names were; they simply wanted to determine if Sayid was among the group.

#324. Posted by: steve at February 5, 2010 3:00 PM

What about the possibility that the white flash at the end of season 5 is not the detonation of the nuke, nor the massive release of EM energy, but rather is tied to a coinciding event that was unfolding across the island: the death of Jacob.

Perhaps Ben stabbing Jacob was the catalyst for the dual realities. Any thoughts?

#325. Posted by: Kevooooon at February 5, 2010 3:12 PM

What about the possibility that the white flash at the end of season 5 is not the detonation of the nuke, nor the massive release of EM energy, but rather is tied to a coinciding event that was unfolding across the island: the death of Jacob.

Perhaps Ben stabbing Jacob was the catalyst for the dual realities. Any thoughts?

#326. Posted by: Kevooooon at February 5, 2010 3:13 PM

@opserc #224 I noticed that as well, though they did seem to think they might have remembered each other.

But this brings up another point which many have touched on. On the new flight 815, things are somehow different, e.g., Jack's one bottle, Hurley's the luckiest man in the world, Locke lying or not about his walkabout, Shannon's not on the flight, etc. This flight 815, this other universe, is not exactly the same. And we all know that TPTB don't make mistakes on this show. Probably Desmond's wedding ring (I missed that) is another example. And I don't recall if we knew that Charlie was being brought back for arrest (or did the plane radio ahead following Jack's extraction of Charlie's stash or his suicide attempt) And his statement about "supposed to be dead..." Do all these people have tenuous connection to the universe back on the island?

Reading all these posts so as not to repeat anybody is getting to be a struggle.

#327. Posted by: August Paul at February 5, 2010 3:20 PM

#186. Posted by: bouds

Possible meaning of LA X: X signifies the variable in math. La = "the" in Latin. So it means The Variable, which goes back to the episode of the same name about changing the future using human free will as the variable.
Great idea, I like this one the best!

About all the theories of the two time lines converging. The island is at the bottom of the ocean. Will there need to be an island again? or can they converge somewhere else? in the future of both time lines?

This is a link to the ABC podcast by the writers. very interesting. I suggest you all listen! there are 3 of them dated 2-2-10. They talk about how they had flashbacks and flashforwards and now they have flash sideways. "these are not alternate timelines"

I greatly enjoyed all your ideas! So nice to be back here.


#328. Posted by: berkyo at February 5, 2010 4:23 PM

@319

I think your correct it has not been proven which is good or which is evil or if they both have good and evil in them but this maybe a clue - Have you seen the promotional picture for season 6 where the cast is sitting at the last supper.In the picture it is Locke/Flocke sitting in Jesus's place and Sayid is in the Place of Judas(fourth from the left) - When Flocke was leaving for the temple he told the others " I am very disapointed in you all" maybe this is because they were following Jacob who is the evil one.Maybe smokey is the wrath of God.Why if he was truly evil apologize to Ben." I'm sorry you had to see me that way". JUST A THOUGHT!!

#329. Posted by: moog at February 5, 2010 4:26 PM

Was it coincidence that Desmond was on the plane only during the time Charlie was dying in the bathroom?

Jacob and MIB's encounter on the beach totally reminded me of Ben and Widmore's encounter after Ben's daughter died. There was a lot of speculation at that time that Ben also couldn't kill Widmore himself for some reason (not just at that moment but for years prior when he was coming and going from the island and could have done something years before)

Love the Life/Death scenario over the Good/Bad one. We all know life isn't perfect and not always happy either. Some even prefer Death to the suffering in Life. Maybe that is the decision the Losties will have to make eventually

#330. Posted by: Kompletely Lost at February 5, 2010 4:27 PM

I've enjoyed reading all the speculation and theories. Somewhere in the back of my head there's still a desire to stand on Damon and Carleton's assureance back in the early days that there was a scientific basis for everything in Lost.

So I have a 'scientific, rationalist' scenario in my head. If I get the time this weekend I'll try to set it down on paper and then post it, probably on the Random Topics 4 blog to avoid cluttering this one up with material not directly related to the events of thei episode (although there was oen major clue this epthat tends to bear out my thesis.)

If I make it, I'll post a note here pointing to it.

#331. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 5, 2010 4:35 PM

@mizzed #301

I'm impressed.

#332. Posted by: August Paul at February 5, 2010 5:12 PM

@329 Moog

That's the most sense that I have seen to date!

Does that make the 'Temple people' bad?

#333. Posted by: mtncbn at February 5, 2010 5:19 PM

I believe I have roughly translated the glyphs on the pillars that face the spring in the Temple. It appears to form prayers like passages of a ceremony from a Book of the Dead:

1. In the name of Horus, alas spirit enter. Horus, sacred god father's duties.
2. Horus, enter father's gardens.
3. Stand for father's long past ideas of health (rebirth).
4. Lord father, patron of the Dead, heal for eternities.
5. Lord father.
6. Island Heaven (sacred/magical sign symbol).
7. Enter Horus (Ra).
8. Heaven conspire against evil fires.
9. Stand Ra. (sacred/magical sign symbol).

#334. Posted by: welh at February 5, 2010 5:24 PM

@333

I guess were not sure who they are trying to keep out is.They were preparing all there defenses before Sayid woke up. - maybe they were to late Jacob got in through a "loop hole".Instead of healing Sayid he made sure Sayid died so he could use his body to enter the temple.The risks they were talking about could have been Sayid not being healed but his body taken over.I'm thinking maybe Richards chains are refering to him being inslaved by Jacob as his servant.I guess I have to go watch it for a fourth time.I maybe be wrong but i dont think it was made clear that the templetons are followers of Jacob.

#335. Posted by: moog at February 5, 2010 5:43 PM

@311 ealgumby: "For a god/whatever who ostensibly represents the life force itself, he seems rather cavalier with peoples' lives. This is supposed to be a beneficent entity?"

and @330 Kompletely Lost: "We all know life isn't perfect and not always happy either."

I think that's an important distinction. "Life" encompasses the entire human experience- generosity and hatred, unselfishness and cruelty, happiness and tragedy.

Jacob has gone to great lengths to preach free will- while he draws people to himself and the island, they must make their own decisions about the choices they make and bear the responsbilities of their own actions.

Jacob does not walk among his own people on the island- they are summoned, and apparently that summoning is a rare occasion limited to preslected individuals and primarily revolves around additions to Jacob's list.

It may have been Nadia's time to die, irregardless of anything Jacob did or did not do (see Mrs. Hawking, Desmond and the man with the red shoes).

I think we also have to be careful in holding Jacob responsible for other's actions- Ben invoked Jacob's name on numerous occasions to justify his own actions, and yet had never met or directly communicated with him.

A couple of other thoughts on Jacob/Life, Smokey/Death:

When I said Death was pinned to the island, I meant in a very literal fashion. Smokey can travel under the ground, along the ground, or via the treeline, but cannot go up and over the Dharma sonic fence. Neither can he pass through the water that led to the Jughead hiding site under the barracks.

The fact that he is tied to the land and can not pass though water (or apparently, certain sound waves) makes the whole "Ben pulls the plug in the summoning room" a lot more sensical now- Ben was draining the water underneath the barracks to allow Smokey to pass through the underground tunnels and attack Keamy's men.

If this is true, it puts the kabosh on Smokey as Abaddon theories, or that Smokey was/has been seen off-island.

Another great question asked was how the Temple Others can live and walk among Smokey's tunnels and passageways.

I think the answer is "Jacob's list". The placing of a name on Jacob's list prevents them from attack or harm from Smokey- essentially, they come under Jacob's personal protection.

Smokey can and does attack and kill Oceanic survivors, Bram's men, Keamy's men, Rouuseau's team, Dharma residents, etc., but has never been seen as attacking or posing a threat to the Others- until Jacob's "death".

#336. Posted by: Mizzed at February 5, 2010 6:10 PM

@336

Your theories have many holes.Jacobs list makes them not be able to be attacked by smokey - thats really reaching. - maybe the reason they can walk among smokey in the tunnels because its not him their trying to keep out.The ash may be used not just to keep flocke out but also Jacob.I suggest you go back and watch it again with a broader mind.we don't know what is on the paper in the guitar case.they never come out and say they are followers of Jacob - they only ask when is he coming.i'm not saying I'm right but just suggesting that we are not clear who is good and who is bad if either are.

#337. Posted by: moog at February 5, 2010 6:35 PM

i understand why we need to have commercial breaks during our favourite tv shows,
the problem i have is when TPTB decide we should have some additional advertising "during" an episode,
EXAMPLE: i watched the launch of BSG prequel CAPRICA,
during a key moment in the show the screen was reduced to a small box in the bottom right part of the screen,
an ad for the new season of lost filled the rest of my tv,
the only way to enjoy any show we might be interested in would be to download it & watch with no distractions,
but we cant do that for fear of ISP cutting our connection.
the only other option is wait..&..wait..wait for the dvd to come out!
i dont think so...
i was lucky enough to catch a flight on monday morning to reach rhode island & watch LOST with my buddy arnold,(no download took place)
although i hate paying a TV liscence here in the uk, i enjoy watching a show from start to finish without being given the opportunity to buy a new toyota..hmm!
sorry for the rant but i hate ads & hate these new ones that pop-up during the show.

#338. Posted by: san at February 5, 2010 7:07 PM

@338 san

I agree. They keep pushing it one step further. The 'water mark' ads during the show are very irritating. It's not enough that we watch regular commercials between segments of a show?
And with the loss of rural coverage with the switch to digital, off the air is nearly past tense, here (or maybe 'OFF the air' is the current tense).

#339. Posted by: mtncbn at February 5, 2010 7:38 PM

@339-mtncbn.
im glad someone else hates this ad-fest as much as me,
the advertising during a show will get worse,
we end up in the situation where we have an advert show with some footage of the show we want to watch.

#340. Posted by: san at February 5, 2010 8:33 PM

@337 Moog

So you're saying that the Others- who are brought to the island by Jacob, selected by Jacob and have referred to him as a "magnificent man" and a "great man"- are afraid of Jacob?

And then when Jacob is killed...they go into a state of...panic???

#341. Posted by: Mizzed at February 5, 2010 9:30 PM

Think that's bad? Wait another few months - when the grab another (3rd) corner of the screen... with the weather map for severe weather... and the endless scroll for tornado warnings/watches and flash-flooding.

And then they do a vertical shrink to the screen, on top of that.

(old-timers voice) "Yup. I saw LOST last night. Well, at least the top right corner of it. Kate looked like she weighed 300 pounds - all crunched down like that. Don't get me started on what Hurley looked like."

#342. Posted by: DocH at February 5, 2010 9:32 PM

- Dogen's name probably comes from a 13th century Japanese Zen Buddhist philosopher(!): Dogen Zenji. One of his major writings was "Treasury of the Eye of the True Dharma."
-
@329 moog - I like the concept of Smokey as the Wrath Of God. I've thought of Smokey as a killing machine, sort of a great white land shark with the ashes as a shark cage. Everyone it has sought out but Locke (to the best of my recollection) has been gravely wounded or killed. If Locke did not survive the initial 815 crash (@316 lostinvt), but has actually been fLocke since season 1 that could explain Smokey sparing him. Somehow Jacob, MIB/Esau, Ben, ??? have some way of summoning it (and calling it off, at times.) Once summonned/let loose Smokey's only desire is to go for the jugular Alien/Terminator/Predator-style.
I think it could be the most ancient of things on the island (witness the temple heiroglyphics.)
- @167 shikotee - Good figurative reading on fLocke's "chains" remark to Richard as Prometheus bound - anxious to find out just when & where (and how literally) chains were applied to Mr Guyliner. Which leads to:
- @313 badsmokeybad, @319 san, @321 Crispy Seaplanes, @329 moog et al. Who's Bad? Amazing how we formulate opinions of people, isn't it? We've actually only seen Jacob interact with others for a very few minutes last season. We primarily have come to know him through...Benjamin(I lie, that's what I do)Linus. Yet so many of us here have assumed he is "Good", leaving MIB/Esau as "Evil" by default from even less screen time at the end of one episode. I'm wondering if he ashed himself in the cabin (if, indeed, that is where he has been) to keep himself safe from Smokey. If Smokey is The Wrath Of God, The Angel Of Death or whatever it is not inherently good or evil, just a harvester for the one who sent it.
- Didn't the Templetons pulling Sayid out of The Spring remind you of Christ being taken down off The Cross! His arms were even draped out perpendicular to his body all Cross-like.
- Hugo - NO ONE has woven a thread on Hurley! The only one that Jacob has communicated with since being killed.
What's up with that? He's important.

#343. Posted by: robinpiney at February 5, 2010 9:48 PM

@342

Yeah I guess that's what I'm saying - most of them have never seen him and only know what richard has told him - and if he was in "chains' he was under his power.- I really doint know but I have a feeling we are purposly being lead to belive Jacob is good and MIB is evil -

#344. Posted by: moog at February 5, 2010 9:51 PM

just show us ads all the time,
we love them,
we want to buy stuff,
we dont care about our favourite shows,
toyota with marginal control can be an adventure all on its own.

#345. Posted by: san at February 5, 2010 9:57 PM

Hey, here's a difference between the two realities that I haven't seen here or on any other boards:

Desmond calls Jack "mate" - not once does he say "bruthah." And that was as much a part of his character as Hurley saying "dude," dude.

#346. Posted by: LockeBox at February 5, 2010 11:33 PM

Maybe Desmond using "mate" is a reflection of the fact that he had spent some time in Australia (pronounced: 'might').

Maybe that is where he parked his sailboat and spent the past three years. (pushing buttons?)

#347. Posted by: DocH at February 6, 2010 1:02 AM

I thought a quick question would bring a quick answer.

Can anyone refresh my memory - did Richard have any interaction with anyone other than Locke and Juliette off-island?

thanks

#348. Posted by: 74 aka Steve at February 6, 2010 1:45 AM

@322 lost2theworld....regarding welh's theory @260 and the possible names on the list, the pieces do seem to come together in a weird sort of way....we just need Sun to get to Jin eventually, and who wants to bet that will happen near the temple? Match that with welh's translation of the hieroglyphics on the temple walls and we might be talking about the journey of the underworld in Egyptian religion...I think welh might have solved the whole show! :)

@324 steve regarding a different theory about the list in the ankh: I gave up a long time ago trying to "prove" anything I might speculate about this show is correct....I think your theory has good merit too...Who the hell knows what the real "answer" is right? I just love how the show keeps you wondering, pontificating, speculating, and creating scenario after scenario, theory after theory, and idea after idea. Better yet, I love how we have this forum to come to and share them with everyone!

#349. Posted by: Vikki at February 6, 2010 7:43 AM

I know this has been mentioned very early in all these posts, but I’m having a chance to sit and watch Tuesday’s show again and I’m beginning to think that in the “Non-Crashing” scenario, the fact that Jack seems to remember inklings of things that obviously haven’t happen is very significant. Perhaps the MOST significant thing about the opening scenes. We seem to be focusing on the Charlie/Desmond appearance/disappearance a lot, but where did Jack get the scratch? Why does Desmond seem so familiar to Jack? Why the initial look of confusion? Despite all the chance meetings on the plane, is there an obvious deja vu recognition of Kate/Rose et al. by Jack? Are we in some kind of dream sequence here? Just wondering.

#350. Posted by: davidrh at February 6, 2010 10:07 AM

If LA X is a flash sideways, doesn't that imply the events are really happening, like the flashbacks and the flash forwards? I was wondering whether Seasons 1-5 were merely wrinkles in time and the flash sideways is just a continuation of Season 1's flight 815 a few seconds later (or earlier?), like the kids coming out of the wardrobe in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.

But then I can't explain all the differences between Season 1's flight 815 and Season 6's, especially the missing Shannon, unless someone else can piece that together.

#351. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 6, 2010 11:06 AM

Regarding my life/death posts @301 and @336, I've been thinking about Bergman's film The Seventh Seal, where the knight can postpone his death as long as he can prolong his game of chess with Death.

Instead of chess, Lost has used the backgammon metaphor. Locke describes it as the oldest game in the world, where one side is light, the other dark.

Jacob (life) is playing the white (or light) pieces, Smokey (death) is playing the black (or dark). The island is the gameboard, while the pieces are the characters of the show.

For Jacob/white, winning is prolonging the game. For Smokey/black, winning means ending the game and putting the gameboard away (perhaps on the bottom most shelf in the closet- the one under the ocean?) Jacob to Hurley on who killed him: an old friend who is tired of his company.

One of the features of backgammon is that your pieces can be sent by your opponent all the way back to the beginning- time loops? reboots?

Pieces can also finish their movement along the board and be put away. Michael could literally not be killed until he completed his way around the gameboard. After saving the Oceanic 6, Christian appears to release him: "You can go now, Michael".

This is not a match between Good and Evil- life and death are both part of the natural cycle. But the game is not supposed to end until Jack, Kate, Sawyer, etc. fix what is broken in their lives and find redemption.

Smokey: "it always ends the same". Jacob: "it only ends once- everything else is progress."

#352. Posted by: Mizzed at February 6, 2010 11:24 AM

Mizzed in #352

Whoa. Very heavy! Got a goosebump.

#353. Posted by: davidrh at February 6, 2010 1:43 PM

Oh, yeah? I got five goosebumps! Nice tie-in!!

#354. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 6, 2010 2:10 PM

Re: Dogen
How did he luck out and get a name. Did I miss that? And is Lennon just a handle, or was he named also?

#355. Posted by: mtncbn at February 6, 2010 2:39 PM

#351. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
If LA X is a flash sideways, doesn't that imply the events are really happening, like the flashbacks and the flash forwards?

In the podcast, the writer's say the sideways flashes are just as real as the flash forwards and flashbacks.

I think the reference to backgammon by Mizzed is pretty good. I have been trying to figure out what they were referring to in the "progress" dialogue.
This Fits.

What does anyone think about the possible results of the bomb causing a time jump and a sideways flash? would the Jughead epi be the earliest time when the losties could have changed things? So Hawking and Widmore would still - in the side flash, have been to the island? and left by the time of the time of Juliette's bomb/time jump? and they would still be looking for the island?

#356. Posted by: berkyo at February 6, 2010 2:41 PM

Thinking about early influences. Richard at John's birth would be the first?

#357. Posted by: berkyo at February 6, 2010 3:03 PM


Can anyone tell me why the shiny new 1977 VW bus took a time leap to 2004? Convenient, eh?

I think there was a VW bus in 2004, that Hurley found (Ben's dead Dad was in it), but this one looked brand spankin' new!?

#358. Posted by: Debi at February 6, 2010 5:32 PM

I have to go back and watch fir sure, but I think Locke was the one who broke the ring of ash when he first went to Jacobs cabin. I remember them showing his boot as he took a step, maybe that's why it had to be Lockes body?

#359. Posted by: Dragonfly at February 6, 2010 5:47 PM

@358-debi.
yes i agree with you,
continuity must be a huge headache for the writers,
i still dont understand how jin was able to move through time along with the people inside the radius of the island,
jin was on the freighter kahana when the island moved,
his explanation was that he "jumped"
wow-that must have been one big jump,
expect to see jin-soo kwon compete in the winter olympics soon,
he could be the first korean to win the ski jump event.

#360. Posted by: san at February 6, 2010 6:09 PM

@ 352 Mizzed...

So if we take the backgammon/chess metaphor just a wee step further...in chess, a king cannot capture another king. Sounds like Jacob and MIB to me. Like they've played many many games before, always to a draw. But this time, one of the two got their pawn to the back row and queened up.

#361. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 6, 2010 7:08 PM

And while I'm asking questions about Dogen, what is the item on his necklace?

#362. Posted by: mtncbn at February 6, 2010 7:21 PM

We’ve mentioned this guy before - Brian over at “Lost and Gone Forever”. He has a great review up also . . but after 5000 words, his final line is:

Four more days until all these theories get thrown out the window!

Ain’t it the truth?!? You’d think we would all learn. But it’s SO MUCH FUN to set here and beat our brains out every week!!!! Come on Damon and Carlton, let us have it! We’re ready for you!

Let the confusion continue.


BTW: mtncbn #362 . . . That necklace obviously holds the blood of Angelina and Billy Bob. It’s a left over prop from their failed marriage. Sold on ebay for 1500 Dhrama Dollars in 2005.

#363. Posted by: davidrh at February 6, 2010 7:53 PM

@363 davidrh - thanks
that is now just as clear as the entire rest of this season, so far!

#364. Posted by: mtncbn at February 6, 2010 8:08 PM

Trivia from lostpedia:

The historical Dōgen died on September 22, 1253, the same calendar date as the original Oceanic Flight 815 crash.

#365. Posted by: mtncbn at February 6, 2010 8:15 PM

GRAA Mac! So glad to have you back! It's good to have Lost back as well. ;)

I have to say I really enjoyed this episode. It was nice to see confirmation that Locke/Smokey/Man in Black are all the same (which I had suspected since Ben had that little adventure in the tunnel with Alex).

The scenes on the plane were thrilling to watch, the Sawyer/Jack smack down was great, the Juliet farewell was tearfully touching, the Smoky showdown was awesome, and the Temple...I cannot tell you how excited I was to finally see the Temple!

Mac, another difference is that in the pilot Jack comforts Rose when the turbulence hits, this time Rose initiates the conversation. I think it's also key that Charlie said "I was supposed to die"... A key question for me then has every dead person who has appeared on the island (to anyone other than Hurley) been the MIB? Christian, Yemi, Kate's horse?
Another key point is the hot tub went funky. Once Jacob died, the water was no longer clear. The Japanese leader cut himself and put his hand in the water as if expecting it to become healed...but nothing. But he tried it out on Sayid anyhow.
I loved how the flashes always went from the same character in one timeline to the other.

@4. ilovebenjaminlinusxx: Maybe this time the trip to Australia worked, maybe it cured Rose of her cancer.

@5. ilovebenjaminlinusxx: The cabin was clearly Jacob's. The line of ash was meant to keep the MIB/Smokey out, but had been disturbed and Ilana noted that he ahd not been there for a long time. I think it's pretty clear that he was Jacob (the person they were looking for).

@11. badsmokeybad: Perhaps Walt's mother didn't die in the new reality, or perhaps they just didn't show them because Walt is 2 feet taller than in the pilot. They didn't show Claire, either (or Ana Lucia, Libby, Mr. Eko, Nikki, Paulo, Scott, Steve, Nathan, Donald, Zach, and Emma either) but she was probably on the plane. Did the missing passengers not make the flight, or were they just not shown on camera?

@12. Beth Cooney: I totally agree. I think we'll see Jules again in the other time line, maybe in the last episode.

@37. ANTP?: What makes you think that the Ajirans have been on the Island long enough for it to be 2008?

@40. ransomjackson: The first plane was Oceanic 815, the second was Ajira 316. No major significance other than that.

@42. clazza: Rose and Bernard built their own cabin. They weren't living in Jacob's (really Horace's) cabin. And yes, they should be in the jungle in 2007...

@44. bearandu: Yes, the water not being clear means the healing mojo is broke. The water went murky once Jacob died.

@51. LockeBox: LMAO!

#366. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 6, 2010 8:22 PM

my brain is numb after reading all this.

congrats to wehls. good job on the translation of the incription--u should write a book on this.

another thought about dogen--his name is similar to the dogon tribe of mali, who some people believe are descended from the argonauts (who were actually egpytian, not greek). interestingly, the dogon believe they originated in the sirius star system and worship a deity called a nommo, who is represented as a giant fish. time travel is not quite so impossible if you are already familiar with interstellar travel, is it?

somehow, in lost, everything connects!

call it the unified myth/religion/science/metaphysics theory.

#367. Posted by: scribe at February 6, 2010 9:21 PM

_____________________________)))))

I think it sounded like Sayid was inhabited by Charlie for his last couple of lines of dialogue near the end. Anyone else catch that? Re-watch if possible.

_____________________________))))

#368. Posted by: Mr Naysayer at February 7, 2010 12:37 AM

YES!! Mr Naysayer. I thought either Charlie or Desmond!

#369. Posted by: daisymae at February 7, 2010 12:45 AM

@368 - 369 --> Yes both my wife and I said the same to each other.

#370. Posted by: steve at February 7, 2010 2:22 AM

@368 - 369 --> Yes both my wife and I said the same to each other.

#371. Posted by: steve at February 7, 2010 3:02 AM

@243/RNM - but scarves are multi-use. ;)

@293/Clem - it's very common for Asian women to keep their original last name.

@295/shik - yes, it is strange how these people just line up to be "leader" without having a clue what's going on.

@304/unhandyandy - haha pet sematery. i wondered also.

@305 /ealgumby - maybe the water doesn't heal everyone the same way. or maybe it wasn't the Jacuzzi that stopped Richard's aging. and 311 - I've been saying all along this is not a good/evil story. Just as Our Hero Jack showed his flaws early on, every other entity is also complex. So Jacob is not a good god, the Jacuzzi may save a life, but that life has a dark side.

@338/san - i'm watching in australia. my internet is horrific - took almost 3 hrs to watch the 85 min. no ads except for the watermarks - they are just unconscionable. they cover so much of the picture, you can't see what's going on. I really don't get it. used to be just the sci-fi channel that did that, now it's everyone.

@347/Doch - I've been in Oz for 3 mos. "mate" is NOT "mite" as in the American pronunciation. It's still a long A - I'm sure there's a grammatical mark for it, but I don't know how to describe it. And they don't say "Austrylya" either. Being a Python freak, I was quite surprised. They do yell "Oi oi oi" on demand though, like trained seals.

#372. Posted by: hurling at February 7, 2010 9:13 AM

@358 Debi pondered:
>Can anyone tell me why the shiny new 1977 VW bus took a time leap to 2004? Convenient, eh?

Assuming that this foom was the same as the other time-fooms… It was the same bus.

Objects they are in contact with foom along with them, such as the outrigger canoe, weapons, clothes, the well-rope Sawyer was hold on to as Locke descended the well, etc.

If I was time-fooming, I'd be reluctant to let go of anything - take off your clothes to take a bath and spend the rest of your fooms naked, for instance.

#373. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 7, 2010 10:38 AM

sorry for the rant but i hate ads & hate these new ones that pop-up during the show.

#338. Posted by: san at February 5, 2010 7:07 PM

I've decided to sell ad. space on all my posts from here on out.

Drink Pepsi.

#374. Posted by: Skipper at February 7, 2010 10:43 AM

@361/ransomjackson - "one of the two got their pawn to the back row and queened up."

Mr. Friendly?

#375. Posted by: ealgumby at February 7, 2010 11:40 AM

ealgumby,

Mr. Friendly...queened up...

Okay, ya got me with that one. I actually laughed out loud.

I had forgotten which team Ol' Tom played for...not that there's anything wrong with that...

Wouldn't that be funny if he came back somehow to play a major role?

#376. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 7, 2010 4:12 PM

Does anyone else feel a little cheated that we did not get a glimpse of Juliet running naked in the forest like Desmond after the fail safe detonation

#377. Posted by: steve at February 7, 2010 4:53 PM

@377-steve,
yep, all the male LOST fans anyway!

#378. Posted by: san at February 7, 2010 4:59 PM

@55. shikotee: I read somewhere that the X in LA X was a tip to those comics alternate universes, so I think you saw things the way the writers intended.

@56. welh: I disagree, I don't think anyone wrote anyone into a corner. I think you'll see by the end of the season that this is all part of the plan. The actions of the Lostaways, however, did create a paradox. As for multiple parallel universes you describe, only one of those things actually changed the past, creating one alternate universe (that we care about, anyhow, some physicists will tell you there are an infinite number of parallel universes).

@60. Boodle: What other choice did he have than to at least try and put Sayid in the spring? Leaving him bleeding to death on the stones of the Temple certainly wasn't going to heal him!

@76. BELost: Thanks for posting that! I think the most interesting thing they said was "well, something is inhabiting Sayid"...Maybe it's Sayid from the other universe? Maybe he's woken up and found himself in an alternate reality?

@80. muvrshakr: That is an excellent question...what happened to Richard, Eloise, Ben, Dr. Chang, and all the other people who were on the Island when the bomb went off? I'm sure we'll find out...

@84. Red...Neck...Man: I think RA told them not to shoot Flocke, because it would only make him mad. He'd turn into Smoky and smite all there @sses!

@87. Scooby-Dude: Interesting theory...but Charlie, Boone, Frogurt, Arzt, and Agent Mars all died on the Island and they are on the plane.

@92. LostedIt: Just because we are not at the same point in both, does not mean they are not parallel. 5th Avenue and Park Avenue are parallel to each other, even if I am at 42nd Street on one and you are at 60th Street on the other.

@101. Elvis: There's nothing to say Hurley won with THOSE numbers in the new reality. But TPTB say we haven't seen the last of those pesky numbers, so stay tuned!

@102. Cecil: I took the remark to mean that Richard had arrived on the Island in chains (perhaps on the Black Rock?).

@142. vintage: At first I thought she had been foomed there off of the original 815, Then I thought the tree grew up under her. :shrugs:

@163. BEMH: To quote Gregory House: "Everybody lies."

#379. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 7, 2010 5:44 PM

@171. irishfan: They said coincidence.

@202. Dennis: That is the first time I have ever head Rolling Stones' lyrics referred to as "a song on House MD". I suppose I should be grateful you didn't refer to it as a song from Glee...

@214. hurling: That may be true of LAX, but they actually filmed that scene at Honolulu International, where arrivals are directly below departures. ;)

@222. Rudy: They never said in this episode What Kate Did, I think we'll find out more next week. I'd bet it was the same crimes as the original time line though...

@224. opserc: Jack recognized Des in the Hatch after he called him "Brutha".

@293. Clementine: In Korean culture, women do not take their husband's name. Which is why I always thought ti was weird that anyone referred to Sun as "Mrs. Kwon". Or as Sun, it is very uncommon for a Korean to go by just their "first" name (equivalent), instead of "first and middle" (Sun-Hwa in this case).

@367. scribe: I think it's more likely he is named for Dōgen Zenji. the 13th century Japanese philosopher. You may have noticed this pattern among many of the characters names over the years (Locke, Bentham, Faraday, Lewis, Hume, Hawking...)

@368. Mr Naysayer: Very interesting theory!

#380. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 7, 2010 6:18 PM

not sure if anyone else found it strange that another VW van became available to kat,juliet,sawyer & miles when they went to help jack to drop the bomb,
conversation between hurley & jin back at the first van,
hurley:what about jack & everyone else, did they move through time too?
jin:i dont know, they took one of the other vans and went up to the worksite.
no explanation of where this second van came from or indeed where it went.
i hope & pray that the final season wont be filled with inconsistencies like this.
i - like many of you have followed the show from day 1,
i would be disappointed if holes were to start appearing in the plot or storyline.
i had assumed the van which turned up to help jack at the swan construction site was the one they had.

#381. Posted by: san at February 7, 2010 7:00 PM

@ 381 san...since they were still in 1977, I think there were VW vans aplenty, not just one. no big inconsistency there.

FYI...ack has her recap up over at www.theackattack.net She cracks me up. Great comic relief! Those of you who have never visited her site, I highly recommend it!!

#382. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 7, 2010 7:50 PM

@379 FenwayBen commented:

>@202. Dennis: That is the first time I have ever head Rolling Stones' lyrics referred to as "a song on House MD". I suppose I should be grateful you didn't refer to it as a song from Glee...

Oh, these young whippersnappers.

-----------------------

>@214. hurling: That may be true of LAX, but they actually filmed that scene at Honolulu International, where arrivals are directly below departures. ;)

Exactly the same at LAX, except possibly in the international terminal - which is where these folks would have been arriving.

-------------

Didn't quite finish my all-Lost reqatch before the new season started, adn I'nm sort of grateful. Knowing what we have had confirmed about Flocke puts a whole different complexion on the Flocke/Ben scenes as I catch up the final stretch.

I have a feeling I'm going to be watching this series repeatedly in years to come with new insights each time.

#383. Posted by: Cecil at February 7, 2010 8:33 PM

@383-cecil.
yep,im with you on the re-watch thing,
i intend on buying the whole dvd-boxset when it comes out,
just imagine how good it would be for someone who had never seen the show before watching the full dvd boxset,
no annoying ad breaks,
no watermark nonsense,
high quality sound & video.
bliss!

#384. Posted by: san at February 7, 2010 9:03 PM

The comment about what Kate did. The comic-con bit indicated that she did in a plumber, rather than her dad.

#385. Posted by: mtncbn at February 7, 2010 10:48 PM

Hey guys!
I believe the Man In Locke can only inhabit bodies that die off island. For instance-Christian Shepherd. I don't believe it is coincidence that Christian Shepherd (died off island) was the one that told Locke to GO OFF ISLAND and to DIE. I believe MIB knew he would come back and be the tool he would use to kill Jacob. I do not believe the dead people we've seen come back are a product of MIB/Smoke monster. I think when you die on island you can somehow reincarnate for a small amount of time-especially if you were in communion w/ the island as the Others were (McKayle/Alex).

I think the timelines will intersect when the LAX one meets in 2007 w/ the island one. That's when the island sinks and everyone lives happily ever after OFF island but with the memories of being on the island. Awesome!

~Shana in Alaska

#386. Posted by: Shana Roberson at February 7, 2010 11:53 PM

@379 - FenwayBen

Damn - you must be a very organized person. I'm impressed by your ability to respond/cite various comment threads. I need to work on that.

re: Earth 1 - Earth 2 (DC Comics)

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers did a homage to this, as several of them have worked within the comic industry as well.

Not sure if there are any fans of "Smallville" here, but the last episode was a 2 hour special that featured the Justice Society of America. JSA was from Earth 1, while JLA (Justice League of America) was from Earth 2. This episode was filled with all sorts of winks and nudges to people who are familiar with the comics...

#387. Posted by: shikotee at February 8, 2010 2:40 AM

@387 shikotee: I start my comments in a notepad, whenever I read something I want to respond to I just add it to the list and then copy and paste it all over. ;)

#388. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 8, 2010 10:26 AM

Did anyone see the Bud Light commercial about the coming asteroid that was going to be the end of the world... wasn't that Dr Chang on the telescope? It's about time he lightened up a little...

#389. Posted by: sandivon at February 8, 2010 12:04 PM

Can someone help me understand the two timelines senerio?

In one timeline the 77ers did not change the past/future. The bomb did or did not explode. It doesn't matter. The hatch was still built which implies that the incident still occured, Desmond still turned the fail safe, and the 77ers foomed to 2007 into the hatch wreckage. This timeline makes sense to me. Whatever happened, happened.

However, the next senerio gives me pause. In this timeline they changed the past/future. Juliet hit the bomb and it exploded. Thus, causing the island to sink in 1977; and therefore, Jack et al never come to the island, and as we were shown flight 815 lands safely in LAX. Sounds great. However, this means Jack couldn't have been there in 1977 to drop the bomb and Juliet (who would have never came to the island either) cannot have been there to hit the bomb! Thus this timeline is not sustainable. To me it falls into the Grandfather Paradox. Unless I am missing something, it seems to imply its own negation.

That's why I think it is not an alternate timeline, but an alternate universe altogether. Neither universe was created by actions taken within the other, but have always coexisted parallel to one another.
And in the alternate/parallel/sideways/World X universe, that the island had to have sunk due to an unrelated cause. And all we really know is that whatever it was that cause the island to sink happened before Sept 22, 2004.

#390. Posted by: bizarro workman at February 8, 2010 12:08 PM

I am curious about Cindy's (stewardess)comment at the temple when she said "he was on the first plane" could it be that the people at the temple encounter the survivors from both timelines but the confusion for them is figuring out which timeline the survivors are coming from? This makes you believe that both timelines end up on the island at some point but will they still be separated by time or will time merge at that point? Does "progress" mean allowing them to see the outcomes of each path and allow them to have a "choice" in the one they want to make a reality?

#391. Posted by: GG at February 8, 2010 1:23 PM

GG @ 391

I believe the "first plane" comment by Cindy was her way of referencing the Oceanic Flight 815 plane which crashed in 2004, as opposed to, the the Ajira Flight 316 plane that crashed in 2007.

#392. Posted by: bizarro workman at February 8, 2010 1:49 PM

If the H-BOMB going off means the past never happened then the bomb never went off. Does that mean, they never traveled back in time? If so then they never changed the past and the future still happened. Isn't this the paradox of time travel. If they never went to the past then they never would have set off the bomb so they would have crashed anyways. Like how you can travel to the past and kill your dad even though that would mean you were never born so you couldn't have done that. Probably why they are still on the island and the hatch is still there (imploded).

#393. Posted by: ALEX ANGEL at February 8, 2010 1:58 PM

addendum to #391--this may also explain why some people seem to be missing. Maybe they were shown another path at some point and took it--like Claire, Mr. Ecko, Charlie, Michael etc. I kinda remember Mr. Ecko staring into the smoke before it took him out. Maybe he was shown an alternate path and chose that one rather then continue his current one. Maybe he had to die in the current path to make the other one a reality. Maybe they will all have to choose to die in one path in order to choose which one will become their true reality. Maybe Jacob dying was the only way Flocke could change his current path and go home. Jacob and Flocke don't seem to have a choice but for some reason their reality depends on the choices of the others involved. I don't recall Jacob choosing to die but he allowed it to happen because it was the choice that Ben made. Flocke would already be home if he had a choice but for some reason he still has a role to play & can't go home until it is complete..."there will only be one ending". He's simply wanting to move things on to a conclusion while Jacob wants to keep working on the details. Maybe Flocke thinks Jacob dying will hinder him from being able to keep messing with the details and speed up that "one ending". Once ended, Flocke goes home!

#394. Posted by: GG at February 8, 2010 2:00 PM

I've found my enjoyment of Lost enhanced by reading as many of the books referred to in the series as I can, and also reading a number of books ABOUT Lost.

I think I've found the best single 'about Lost' book of all. Nikki Stafford's "Finding Lost" subtitled "the Unofficial Guide" is the best single reference I've found.

Completed at the end of Season 2, "Finding Lost" is very thorough, each episode briefly describes (but the book is NOT, as many are, simply a collection of plot summaries.)

With each episode, she includes extra material under the headings...

HIGHLIGHT - A special moment of delight in the ep.

DID YOU NOTICE? - Some of the more subtle things that might have slipped by you.

INTERESTING FACTS - Extra-show commentary, connections outside the show

NITPICK - Minor (and occasionally not so minor) continuity errors

OOPS - Production errors

4 8 15 16 23 42 - All occurrences of numbers in the ep - some she stretches to include, such as every instance of "24" being a "reversed 42"

IT'S JUST A FLESH WOUND - Injuries incurred in the ep

ANY QUESTIONS - Thought about issues raised in the ep

ASHES TO ASHES - Deaths in the ep - especially an untangling of the Scott/Steve 'who died?' confusion

MUSIC/BANDS - Identifies any music featured in the ep.

LOST IN TRANSLATION - Text of any foreign speech that was not subtitled in the show (mostly Sun/Jin)

With each chapter there's a thoughtful essay which can be actor bios, descriptions of the literature that appears in episodes, even props (Eko's Jesus Stick, The Dharma Logo) some of which added immeasurably to my understanding of issues in and around the show.

In the back there's a nice picture guide and map of where all the scenes are filmed on Oahu (to the best of my knowledge, every scene but two in the entire series have been filmed in Oahu with various locations standing in for Australia, Moscow, Berlin, the Phillipines, the Tunesian desert, England, LA, etc.) Bonus trivia quiz - which two scenes were not filmed in Hawaii and why?

She's since written supplemental books for seasons 3, 4 and 5, and I intend to request them all through interlibrary loan. Having the first book open during my recent re-watch definitely increase my enjoyment of S-1 and 2.

Highly recommended for the complete Lost fanatic.

#395. Posted by: Cecil at February 8, 2010 2:53 PM

@395 Cecil
Was Widmore once filmed in London, due to scheduling?

#396. Posted by: mtncbn at February 8, 2010 3:20 PM

I have read all the posts and it took me all week just to do that but I haven't noticed anyone talking about one item that may be major factor in the whole bomb exploding or not scenario.

I love this blog and all you bloggers...I really feel like I am sitting in the back of the class and just listening to the brighter students filling in the blanks for me.

Okay, my question...When Sawyer went under the Swan hatch debris to pull Juliet out, he traveled sideways once he was inside the hole, and not downwards like a hundred feet or so as to where Juliet actually fell when the chains dragged her to the bottom where the bomb was? How did Juliet wind up so close to the top of the pit? Am i missing something here? Just wondering?

#397. Posted by: day1lostfanatic at February 8, 2010 3:29 PM

@396 mtncbn:

Right. The actor playing Widmore was in a play in London and couldn't get to Hawaii, so the show sent a crew and two actors to London and filmed the 'Ben in Widmore's bedroom' scene and the 'Sun confronts Widmore outside his building' scene.

#398. Posted by: Cecil at February 8, 2010 3:49 PM

@397 day1lostfanatic asked:

>Okay, my question...When Sawyer went under the Swan hatch debris to pull Juliet out, he traveled sideways once he was inside the hole, and not downwards like a hundred feet or so as to where Juliet actually fell when the chains dragged her to the bottom where the bomb was? How did Juliet wind up so close to the top of the pit? Am i missing something here? Just wondering?

It's a good question and one we just haven't enough information to base any speculation on, yet.

As I understand it, Juliet was buried, not in the remains fo the Swan construction site where we lst saw he banging on the bomb, but in the remains of a built, then imploded, Swan station. Ao it would *appear* that the bomb didn't go off, the station was built, and somehow Desmond once more failed to push the button, the flight crashed bringing Locke and his existential crises into the station one more. And at some point the button-pushing broke down and the fail-safe was turned once more,t he station imploded, and Juliet winds up under the debris.

I say *appears* because I think Darlton have clearly stated that there aren't really two timelines, adn that the two apparently different scenarious will eventually be found to be part of the same, sigle reality - along with everything else we'ver seen, I presume.

See next post.

#399. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 8, 2010 3:58 PM

@Cecil
Just amazing what the LOST mind stores away! Haven't a clue on the other location, someone else is going to have to dredge that up.

#400. Posted by: mtncbn at February 8, 2010 4:06 PM

What I've gleaned of interest to this group from the most recent poscasts ont he ABC website:

o There are three 'audio poscasts' on the site labeled Feb 7, 2010, but one of them is really a video podcast mislabled.

o D&C 'We don't recognize the term "alternate reality". If fact we despise it. Each is a real as the other.'

o D&C: In the 2004 plane landing in Los Angeles we've observed subtle differences from what we've seen before. In fact, a lot more things have changed than you think.

o D&C: 'It's 'flash sideways'. The two timelines are related in ways we're not disclosing yet.'

o Jorge Garcia: 'Hurley is a Jacob man and he tends to be loyal to his peeps.'

o Josh Holloway: 'Sawyer is in a destructive period of his life.'

o Carleton Cuze: 'It comes down to good vs. evil. And finding out who's on what side.'

#401. Posted by: Cecil at February 8, 2010 4:08 PM

@400 mtncbn:

>Haven't a clue on the other location, someone else is going to have to dredge that up.

No, that was it, two different scenes in London, the only ones filmed outside Oahu, afaik.

#402. Posted by: Cecil at February 8, 2010 4:11 PM

@390 / @393 / @401: Here's a different take - there can be parallel universes, but each time line must be self-consistent. In other words, in the reality we've been watching since the show began, the Losties went back in time and (last season) caused all of the things they were trying to prevent. As pointed out, the bomb can't "work" because then they never get to go back in time and set off the bomb - paradox.

Which leads me to believe that the sideways time line we're seeing this season had to have forked earlier than 1977 - in fact probably earlier than about 1953 (?), the furthest back that they seem to have traveled - forked before Locke met Richard.

Which means it forked before Jacob touched anyone.

What if we've been watching the "Jacob prevails" timeline, and the new one is the "Flocke prevails" due to a much earlier fork? And we'll see how their lives would have played out, not if they hadn't crashed, but more to the point if Jacob hadn't summoned them (and given/taken whatever else he gave/took with his touch).

#403. Posted by: LockeBox at February 8, 2010 5:22 PM

OK--what if all the characters had a parallel character right from the very first episode. The alternate character may not have been obvious at first or even in the show the first season. Like Charlie's alternate character could be Desmond, Kate's could be Juliet, Hurley's could be Miles, Jack could be Sawyer etc....that would mean we've been watching the merge of the parallel flashes all along. That still wouldn't explain Jacob and MIB. I also can't help thinking that Jacob and Richard might be the same person. Does anyone else think that??

#404. Posted by: GG at February 8, 2010 6:08 PM

LockeBox @ 403 wrote
"What if we've been watching the "Jacob prevails" timeline, and the new one is the "Flocke prevails" due to a much earlier fork? And we'll see how their lives would have played out, not if they hadn't crashed, but more to the point if Jacob hadn't summoned them (and given/taken whatever else he gave/took with his touch)."

I completely agree with your line of thinking (see my previous post - #317}. Whether you think of it as an earlier split or a separate co-existing universe. I believe the actions of the 77ers can not be responsible for the sunken island.

Another option might be that the "MIB previals time line" turns out to be unsustainable (due to the before mentioned time paradox) and that is why people ( Desmond, Jack's Dad's body) and things (Lockes knifes) are disappearing. If this is the case, this timeline or alternate universe will continue to disapear until it completely vanishes.

#405. Posted by: bizarro workman at February 8, 2010 6:18 PM

@390. bizarro workman: The producers, in the past, have been very adamant that they do no believe in creating paradoxes. In the present they have been opposed to terming the timelines "alternate" or (sorry to break this to you) "Bizzaro". They say it implies one timeline is more valid than another. I am a firm believer that the two timelines will somehow merge before the show ends.

@396. mtncbn: IIRC the scenes with Ben and Widmore in Widmore's apartment and Sun and Widmore on the Thames were both filmed in London because Alan Dale was in a play in London and could not get to Oahu.

@398. Cecil: Too fast for me!

#406. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 8, 2010 9:32 PM

@401 with the podcast recap

you might want to throw some

****SPOILER TAGS****

around stuff like that

#407. Posted by: StalledLeftWing at February 9, 2010 7:39 AM

@401 with the podcast recap

you might want to throw some

****SPOILER TAGS****

around stuff like that

#408. Posted by: StalledLeftWing at February 9, 2010 7:41 AM

@408 StalledLeftWing observed:

>you might want to throw some
>****SPOILER TAGS****
>around stuff like that

Point taken. I'm not sure comments by writers and cast on eps already shown are spoilers, but some might think so, so I'll do so in the future. I know some pieople won't even watch "next week on Lost" for fear of the least spoilers.

Bear in mind the cast really don't know any more that we do, the writers don't them in on future plot directions, so their comments are more lile fan speculations than anything

The writers, of ourse, knwo more, but I've found their comment in the past to be extremely murky and at times even intentionally misdirecting. Back in S-1 and S-2 they said "It's not purgatory" along with "we aren't doing time travel: with apparently their fingers crossed behind their backs and a mental rservation of ("so far...").

#409. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 9, 2010 9:33 AM

Just wanna say, is anyone else as excited as me for tonight???
Yeah I have no life!

#410. Posted by: El at February 9, 2010 12:52 PM

Just wanna say, is anyone else as excited as me for tonight???
Yeah I have no life!

#411. Posted by: El at February 9, 2010 12:53 PM

Sorry for the double post. Don't know what happened.

#412. Posted by: El at February 9, 2010 12:55 PM

#412. Posted by: El

I'm excited! Can't wait to find out what Kate does!! And please, please, show me more of the temple.

#413. Posted by: Skipper at February 9, 2010 1:14 PM

Can anyone guess where Aaron fits into all this? Is he now just "home with Gramma"?

#414. Posted by: sandivon at February 9, 2010 1:19 PM

@ Skipper
I don't know what Kate does but I'm hoping the trailer doesn't mislead with Sawyer telling her not to follow him. It's about time he grew a pair and after what he just went through with Juliet, it would be unbelievable for him to go right back to her.

#415. Posted by: El at February 9, 2010 1:52 PM

It's taken me a whole week to read all these posts! So much to think about; so little time; so many nosebleeds.

How about the Super Bowl Bud Light commercial, featuring the "Lost survivors" on the beach? Now THAT I could understand.

Eagerly awaiting the ep tonight and your comments tomorrow.

#416. Posted by: lovelost at February 9, 2010 1:57 PM

***** LONG POST ALERT ****

To my way of thinking, for the Flash Sideways – or parallel reality – to be happening, something, some seminal watershed moment, some Butterfly Effect, had to’ve occurred somewhere in the past. Things have changed just enough for us to notice the difference, but not so much as to make “today” unrecognizable. Kate’s still Kate – she blew up somebody, just not her step-father. And Hurley’s still Hurley, just lucky instead of unlucky. Jack’s still Mr. Fix-it (albeit clean-shaven, but still an obscene phone caller wanna-be), and Sawyer’s seemingly happy-go-lucky, and doesn’t appear to be all con artist-y. And Sun and Jin are still “together.” So that seems to imply that the event occurred maybe 20 or so years ago because it likely occurred in their lifetimes.

If the original Flight 815 occurred in 2004, then it stands to reason that the Happening must’ve happened in the 1980’s.

What was going on around that time?

Well, let’s see…there were several notable assassinations including Anwar Sadat, John Lennon, and Indira Gandhi, and assassination attempts on Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II. The space shuttle Challenger blew up, Mount St. Helens erupted, a gas leak at the Union Carbide plant in Bhopal, India killed thousands, Chernobyl melted down, and the Exxon Valdez ran into Alaska. Apple launched the Macintosh, there was Solidarity in Poland, AIDS erupted, the Titanic was discovered, and time travel was invented by Dr. Emmitt Brown using a DeLorean, a flux capacitor, and 1.21 Gw.

Wonder if the Red Sox still won the World Series…twice…

TGIT!

*****END OF LONG POST ALERT ****

#417. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 9, 2010 3:43 PM

@415 El hoped:

>I don't know what Kate does but I'm hoping the trailer doesn't mislead with Sawyer telling her not to follow him.

Whay should these trailers be any different than all the others? Misdirection is their middle name.

And remember everywhere Kate's been told not to go, she's gone.

#418. Posted by: Cecil at February 9, 2010 4:21 PM

It is a good thing that Lost is tonight. I may not get out of my house for three days due to snow. That will give me time to process what Kate did!

@417 ransomjackson

Your list of '80s happenings reminded me of that Billy Joel song "We Didn't Start the Fire." Ah, memories.

#419. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 9, 2010 4:34 PM

Oh Cecil you sound so jaded! There is always hope.

#420. Posted by: El at February 9, 2010 5:18 PM

It is SO good to be back. I, too, lovelost, have taken a week to read all 400+ posts. As a teacher, I LOVE the reference to the dumb kid sitting in the back of the class waiting to hear the 'smart kids' answers. Ealgumby, Cecil, Mizzed, MAC (of course) and SO many other posters...your sagacious and eloquent thoughts and writings give my husband concern at the amount of time I spend reading and thinking.

Two things to add:
1. I re-watched Season I discs 1 and 2 and agree with two previous posts above who ponder if Locke really didn't survive Oceanic flight 815. (or he did survive and the first time he 'saw' the smoke monster and looked into the 'eye' of the island and saw its beauty he was then 'done'. There are a myriad of times when Christian leaves and Locke emerges. Locke basically leads Jack to the caves and the water...leading me to wonder...IS Smokey/MIB truly 'bad'?
2. The numbers.....ah the numbers. Are the Oceanic SIX (or another SIX) on the LIST with the numbers? Who ever is listed as #4, will it take them FOUR attempts to work themselves out of their 'reboot'? Will #23 take twenty three times? Those darn NUMBERS!
Can't wait for tonight!

#421. Posted by: ChiTownTeach at February 9, 2010 7:21 PM

As we countdown to tonight's new epi...

Trying to peel back the onion on the "sideways" scenario-

Oceanic doesn't crash because Desmond wasn't on the island to cause the crash (and abracadabra, Des appears on the Oceanic flight this time).

Since Des doesn't go to the island, presumably Hawking and/or Widmore aren't around to meddle in Des' personal timeline.

So what would make Hawking (and perhaps Widmore) AWOL? The event would have to occur between the mid 1970's (after all, the barracks have been built) and 2001 (when Des otherwise would arrive).

The buildings are still intact, so no atomic explosion. What's left? Radiation poisoning? Dharma nerve gas?

Or perhaps if Faraday never goes back in time, Hawking never kills him, thereby taking away her motivation for leaving the island, as well as her knowledge of the future.

No knowledge of the future=no knowledge of Desmond's role=no Des to push the button=Kelvin and Radzinsky going nuts in the hatch, until they eventually stop pushing the button and sink the island?

#422. Posted by: Mizzed at February 9, 2010 7:28 PM

omg, CLAIRE, WTH!!! I LOVE THIS SHOW, WOOHOO!!!!

#423. Posted by: Mon at February 9, 2010 10:04 PM

Anyone see the enhanced replay from last week which confirms that the ash around the cabin was to keep the smoke monster out and that when Ilana's crew saw the break in the ash, it meant the smoke monster was able to invade the cabin?

#424. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 9, 2010 10:10 PM

Claire going all Rousseau?!?!

Me likey Jungle Claire.

#425. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 9, 2010 10:33 PM

Claire going all Rousseau?!?!

Me likey Jungle Claire.
#425. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 9, 2010 10:33 PM

C'MONNNNNNNN... I haven't watched yet due to time difference in my country. Please don't post stuff from the new episode here. pretty please?

#426. Posted by: Skipper at February 9, 2010 11:44 PM