Key Points from "Sundown"

Just had to say it...MIF! : )

First comment, first post..great recap Mac. I have been a follower for two seasons now and promise to contribute for the remainder of this season. Keep up the good work!

I'm callin it now ANJATH...anyone notice Jack at the hospital?

Answers????? Really?????

If there were any answers in tonight’s episode I’d like to find the moron asking the questions. Someone must have divided by zero along the way.

I can’t really decide how I feel about sideways world, there has got to be some payoff at the end right? Please tell me there is. I will say it was fun to see Keamy back, doing his best Christopher Walken impression, but the rest of Sayid’s Sideways story didn’t do much for me.

I’m thinking at some point the Survivors on the Island are going to find out about their Sideways lives and choices will have to be made, Jacob has certainly been fond of telling people they always have a choice. Will they be asked to sacrifice the “could have been” Sideways World in order to defeat the MIB? Will there be a faction of Survivors desperately trying to make Sideways World a reality and another faction desperately trying to keep it a what if?

Too many question marks in this post, sure wish I could have used some exclamation points.

D'oh, Mac, you got me! Oh well, you deserve it.

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Because loan shark Keamy was hungry for sunnyside-up eggs?

(now think about Keamy doing his best impersonation of Christopher Walken fixing eggs for James Bond in
"A View To A Kill")

The flash-sideways still doesn’t really work without out know what the connection is, but with the 2007 Sayid paralleling island Sayid in very different circumstances, it worked out quite well. I’m not sure if we’ll be able to get that each week since Sayid works perfectly in the duality.

Was anyone expecting Sayid to kill both Dogen and Lennon? That totally caught me by surprise, because I thought Dogen would play a big role. I’ll be disappointed if this is the last we see of Hiroyuki Sanada.

Review of the episode on my blog:
http://th3tvobsessed.blogspot.com/2010/03/review-lost-season-6-episode-6-sundown.html

Dogen vs. Sayid was epic!!!!
Once again made it to 48 minute mark of this episode and realized "hey no answers this week"
And you know what? That's ok bcause I am stil thoroughly enthralled by this show and I just know that by then end we'll have some satisfactory answers! I am loving this ride (Ok the Jim Beam and Pepsi didn't hurt) :)

GRAA Mac! Lol, it's only a flesh wound.

At the point I start writing this there are 7 posts. Probably everything that follows will have been posted by 20 other posters once I press "post". :)

Just a collection of comments and remarks:

-When Dogen was doing his whole scale-good-evil bit, he ended by saying that Sayid came down on the "wrong" side. He didn't say the evil side. In the beginning of the episode I wondered if that was intentionally ambiguous. Could Dogen just mean that Sayid was not on his side, whatever side that is. By the end of the episode however Sayid clearly seems "evil" with all the killing. Unless it turns out that Dogen et al. were such great evils that killing was the only option. Seems unlikely though. So MiB really is evil then? I'm still not convinced that Jacob is good though. All that manipulation going on.

-Did we see Cindy standing behind FLocke at the end?

-Did I just miss it or did Ben not make it into the secret passage with Ilana and her gang?

-I must say I'm glad to be rid of Dogen and Lennon. Not that they were boring characters per se, but they, especially Dogen, were taking so much time away from the central characters.

-On the Island Keamy (and also Omar iirc?) were killed by Smokey, in ALT world by Sayid. Was that intentional foreshadowing of the things to come at the end of the episode?

-Where was Sawyer?

-I don't think we had any mirrors in Sayid's ALT story, did we? Come to think of it, did Claire have any in the Kate episode? Does the Smokey gang not get mirrors? Of course Locke doesn't count towards the Smokey gang, since the real Island Locke is dead. So his ALT persona did have a good look in the mirror.

-Was Dogen's story about the offer Jacob made him very similar about the offer Ben made Juliet to help her sister, or am I imagining that?

-Does MiB protection come from Dogen or the ash? My guess is that Dogen somehow empowered the ash with it's protective powers? Although, did he do the same in the statue's foot when Bram used the ash? Hmmm....?

-For now I'm just going to try and enjoy the flash parallels as a separate story involving characters I know, sort of. I hope TPTB manage to tie it all into the main story line, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen. Could be next week, could be in the final episode. Trying to make it all fit at this point makes the sideways story feel too much as filler, so I'm not going to go that way.

Yikes - missed all the fun from last week, and still haven't caught up on reading.

Too much Olympic fever, and Olympic boozing while watching Men's hockey. Great game my friends, but there can only be one! Crazy how Canada kicked butt, and snagged an Olympic record of 14 golds.

As Mac mentioned at the end, what is the deal with the ash? Not much to it? Actually, when Flocke was with Claire at the beginning, I wondered why she didn't just break the circle for him?

I am curious - Did Dogen lie to Sayid as Flocke stated, or was the problem that Flocke opened his mouth just before Sayid stabbed? I believe Flocke, as I find it hard to believe that a magical knife could stop smokey.

@ Debunker Agree with you completely. Answers please! Anybody see the SNL skit "Flags of the World" last weekend? They had a "confused-fan-of-Lost" flag...I'd like one too. But when all is said and done, I wouldn't change a thing!

Great review Mac! cracking up at everything especially at your thoughts on Cindy. lol

@10, good observation about Keamy dying by team MIB twice. didnt catch that one but still kinda weird how Jin in meat locker...

1. I'm with you Mac and #10 on the whole why dogen's death means no more protection from Smoke Monster!?? still cant come up with a reason...

2. BTW where is Sawyer!!!??? and Jin!!!?? all we see is Flocke and Claire outside temple...

3. Anybody notice how it was RAINING before smokey tore up the temple?? isn't that a clear sign somebody going to die? lol

4. And also how does the "angry man" Flocke 'win' by killing everybody in the island? and where the hell is he going??

Great episode and review even with all the new questions posed.

Canada Hockey Gold.

both teams lost once. to each other.

us beat can by two in regulation.

can had to go to o.t. to beat us by one.

seems like us beat can.

it should at least go to a third game.

and the us fans were well behaved thru-out.

the can fans, third degree unbelievable rude arrogant ogres the entire time.

just saying.

One more thing I just realized. This episode also broke with the follow-season-1 trend. We didn't get a Sun or Jin centered episode.

I knew Sayid was going to kill Dogen when he gave us a bit of his backstory. He was an interesting character too. Oh well.

I found it interesting when Kate was looking up at the Smokey Death Train and I couldn't tell if it was fear or awe across her face. It made me wonder at the end if she turned evil as well and somehow 'died' but I think she just went to Locke's side because everyone else on Team Jacob hid in the Temple.

I think Ben probably found a way to hide in there too. And I loved his expression when he found Sayid. He looked deathly afraid.

I was a bit disappointed that the previews for next week said Ben would die. If that really happens, I won't be happy, because I like his character and I hate being spoiled. That is a major spoiler to me.

pretty action-packed. looks like we got some answers from dogen about smokey being evil incarnate. and the question of when sayid goes dark was answered definitively, too. oh, and claire got some answers about baby aaron.

Keamy wasn't killed by Team MIB in the original timeline, he was stabbed to death by Ben in the Orchid.

Illana and crew didn't just appear, they said they were going to the temple a couple of episodes ago, so showing up at the temple makes perfect sense. Illana has been team Jacob from the start and she clearly seems clued into what's going on, so it also makes sense that she understands what's going on when they finally make it to the temple, albeit ill timed for them, and high tales it out of there.

Where are Sawyer and Jin? We'll probably find out next week.

I have been suspicious all along about Jacob being good and MIB being evil. I am really wondering who's fooling who.

@18 whoops that's right got ahead of myself. Then again Keamy supposedly died in another epic fight with SAYID and Richard shooting him in back in the jungle before his appearance in orchid...

GRAA Mac

As the show is coming to it's end, I just want to give you the kudo's you deserve. Academy Awards for the Ulimate Joan Rivers Report of, not only the Best Dressed, but also Best Articulated Analysist of The Most Scewed Up and Most Intriguing Show In History. Yeeehhh!!!!

GO MAC! As I sit in my basic black sequined dress in my black patents, I applaud you (how do you that with those :>) things? Can you clap?

I have a 3' by 5' white melemine table that now looks like Hurley's forearm.

(When does Hurley become Fhurley?)

Best Line: "Take it, I won't Bite" (Flocke to Sayid)

I want to draw attention to a couple things that stuck out for me:

1. The flippin' baseball - what up with that? It keeps flying through the air..., getting sunk and floating up in the spa... where's that thing going to end up?

2. Alt Sayid says to Nadia "The world travels in funny ways",then we flash to the island - forshadowing?

3. Someone posted last epi that Sayid wasn't Sayid - He was infected. Something is up with that in my mind: a) There's the private convo where he says his son in 12 yrs old (and I stress) "SHE told me I could get my son back" That's a rather personal thing to chat about which made me think he was OK but then he get's these really demented looks like when at the end he becomes one of Flockes drones. (did someone mention avitar?) lol

4. Ben glimpses something (?) in Sayid...

5. (Man I so love this stuff)..

"For every man there is a scale and you're tipped the wrong way"
"It would be best if you were dead"
(major fight and that dang baseball goes a rollin')

"LEAVE! and never come back."

As Klinger would have said (honestly, no pun there) "Holy Toledo, What Next?"

i almost had a heart attack when it looked like ol' smokey might kill miles. i screamed, "take kate instead!!" but miles lives... phew.

I don't think Ben will die next episode according to his interview on Kimmell last week or so, but with this alt timeline who knows for sure?

GRAA, Mac!

1) Epic showdown with Dogen and Sayid, I was wondering what the heck was so special about that baseball. Funny to me, present timeline Dogen's offspring is a baseball playin jock, ALT version a piano playin stalker... assuming its the same kid.

2) Claire is as content as could be, apparently she's not the one who needs saving.

3) Each week I'm turning more and more towards the side of MIB. He seems to be a pretty genuine being, all of Jacob's team seem to be lying, manipulating douches. It would seem to go along with the writer's tendencies to make us hate a character and then love them some other times. I thought Ben was such a jerk for the first 3 seasons or so, one of my favorites now.

4) Kate and Claire are gonna have a showdown. Miles will have front row ticket

10 episodes to go, let the countdown begin!

#14 Mr. OlyGold

I appreciate your passion for hockey and the olympics, but you have just pee'd in my beer jug of "LOST" night

As to who's good and who is evil --

Anyone remember Babylon 5? In that series, they had two powerful alien races trying to manipulate mankind:

- The Vorlons (presumed the good guys) wanted to give humanity a push here and there to help it along. They appeared as "angels".

- The Shadows (presumed evil) wanted to encourage chaos and believed that humans could only get stronger through conflict.

And the ending, of course, was that BOTH of them were bad for humanity. Just two sides of the same coin. And humanity had to get rid of both of them in order to truly survive.

I think that's the same thing we'll see with Jacob and MiB... Neither one seems to really be doing the island inhabitants any favors.

I had a theory that the alt timeline is actually a temptation that MiB is going to offer the losties. "Do what I say and you'll get the wonderful life I'm showing you, the life you would have had if Jacob hadn't messed things up."

But Sayid's not-so-good alt reality, and the fact that Locke had one at all, seem to contradict that.

I guess no one caught it but when Sayid ran into Kate in the jungle and kate asked him, "What's going on!?" Or something of that affect Sayid answer, "You can ask my ass" And walked away.

@27: I don't know if there was satire in that comment and its just not coming through over the internet, but he did say "You can ask MILES."

@Silhouette: (SPOILER ALERT for those who avoid watching the previews:)

To be fair, the preview didn't definitively say that Ben would die, it said he would "face his demise". That could be interpreted as him being judged once again, or faced with a choice about his fate. It does seem like a pretty big spoiler to just give away right in the preview.

I was also severely disappointed to see the interesting character Dogen get auf'ed by Sayid - heck, why couldn't he have knifed one of the no-name hangers-on instead? My immediate thought during that scene was of the awesomest knock-down, drag-out fight scene ever committed to film, from They Live, and this scene didn't disappoint (except for the Dogen dead thing). Then again, if this season is any indication so far, Dogen could recur at any moment - and hopefully not just as some whiz-kid's dad in the alternate reality. And what WAS up with that baseball? I totally didn't get that.

Anyway, I must say the last five minutes of this episode were the most riveting in a couple years. I can't wait to see where this is going.

I have to admit that, along with some others, I don't see where the alt-universe plot is going. The individual goings-on are largely uninteresting (with the notable exception of Jack alt-son last week). There better be a big pay-off from all this.

PS. I dunno if it's just be, but I find this season vastly superior to last season so far…. we shall see I guess.

@Plain Simple,

I was totally thinking the same thing about Dogen's avoiding the "good"/"evil" label. For a moment I was wondering whether Dogen was "good" or "evil". Actually, I'm still wondering.

@Michael Moncur,

I agree that both sides "good" and "evil" here are duplicitous, and in fact they seem to be manipulating the Losties for their own selfish needs. I rarely if ever side with Jack but last week's freakout where he smashed all the mirrors in the lighthouse is looking like the most sensible response from any Lostie so far this season.

Great review Mac, I especially loved your Cindy analysis! The Sayid/Dogen battle was kick @ss! And I loved that they were already bruising the next time we saw them. Did you notice the look on FLocke's face when Kate emerged from the Temple? He seemed happy to see Crazy Claire and Psycho Sayid, but not Confused Kate.
What is Flocke doing with his collection of Candidates? Hope Sawyer and Jin are alright! And where on earth is Richard?!?

Best imagined scene:
Kate: Claire, put the lotion in the basket!
Claire: No thanks, I prefer the hose!

Worst actual scene:
Miles: Where's your husband?
Sun: Jin's here?!?

Yeah Sun, isn't that what everyone has been telling you? What are you doing there if you don't think Jin is there?!?

@10. Plain Simple: I thought the same thing when Dogen said "wrong side", but given the look in FLocke army's eyes, I don't think they are the good guys!
Also, Keamy was killed by Ben (in the Orchid) and Omar was killed by a grenade in the Sayid and Kate Plus Eight helicopter attack to rescue Ben.

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Daniel Faraday: I could tell you, but you wouldn't understand.

Charlotte Lewis: Deh moon eh (in a perfect Korean accent)

Miles Straum: You want me to tell you why the chicken crossed the road? Pay me 3.2 million dollars!

Frank Lapidus: Wait...we're the chicken, aren't we?

Captain: There is a second chicken?

Keamy: If you don't surrender the chicken, I am going to cook her eggs up real nice!

Eliose Hawking: Because it was his destiny. If you stopped him from crossing the road, he would just cross it tomorrow...

Aaron: I want juice box!

Mr. Abaddon: What happened to the rest of the chickens?

My favorite though was "no one tells a chicken what he can't do!"

;)

@30. Rhywun: The baseball was the only thing Dogen had left that connected him to his son. He tells Sayid that he would pick up his son from baseball every Friday night.

Here's another example of Jacob's douche-baggery. Didn't he let Sayid into the temple? The guy can manipulate people years in advance by bringing people to the island, but didn't know that the Ankh he gave to hurley would eventually kill all the people in the temple? Gotta think he did that on purpose, but why? Perhaps, we'll never know....

Glad for the review Mac. My DVR stopped two minutes before the end of the show.
I had no idea what happened.

But I'm not sure I'm going to be very happy about where all this is going. Evil appears to be prevailing on the island. There's always hope that eventually Jack and Hugo show up in their superhero outfits and save the day.

(I'm having some very bizarre images of Hugo in tights and boy-wonder cape running thru my mind right now . . . need coffee . . . )

Can't wait till next week. The most socially-awkward supervillain in tv history might be booted of the island permanantly this time. Benjamin Linus we knew ye much, much too well.
What happens in sideways world, though, if they are killed in the island, is it like the matrix, where they're erased also?

@#31 FenwayBen Did you notice the look on FLocke's face when Kate emerged from the Temple? He seemed happy to see Crazy Claire and Psycho Sayid, but not Confused Kate.

I noticed that too. In the past few weeks, there have been speculation as to which one of the Losties were "candidates" and/or recruits for Flocke. There has been some uncertainty as to where Kate falls. She may be neither a "candidate" nor anyone Flocke would want or need to recruit to help him get home.

Like many others, I'm also confused about how the ALT timelines are going to tie in. Last night's especially felt like it had taken a life of its own and also left you with the idea that it will continue. It almost feels like brand new stories that need to be wrapped up (along with questions from 5 other seasons) in only 10 more episodes and then the 2 hour series finale!

BTW: I think someone mentioned the lack of mirrors in this ep, however Sayid saw his reflection in the glass door panel before Nadia opened the door . . . or at least, WE saw his reflection.

(I may be thinking about last week's blog entries . . )

Anyone connect the dots between the whole "eggs" monologue from Keamy, and what looked to be bodies in the smoke trail?
I remember something in "Angel Heart" I think where DeNiro plays the devil and says something like in ancient times, Eggs were a metaphor for the soul.

Just watched the ending on line. Loved the ending slow motion ZOMBIE-WALK and the really weird other-worldly music . . .

Well, at least it's starting to feel like they're building towards something....that something, I have no f'n idea.

Also, I'm over the chicken jokes fyi. I am officially implementing my power to state that the last chicken joke is 'That which is always last!'

Still going with my "From a certain point of view theory"
Everythig that's been happening on this island has been what happened, "From a certain point of view".

Ever since we found out that there were 2 sides, I have said I would wait to decide which side I am behind. I want 1 question answered and it would decide for me. What did MIB do to be trapped? That will tell us so much about who is good and who is bad.

The visuals of the smoke monster with the sound effects are easily the best action sequences on lost.

I always thought that the smoke monster reminded me of that Langoliers story from Stephen King:

Passengers of a plane which were transported to the past had to dodge and outrun the "Langoliers" which was the universes way of decomposing the past. Sort of like the "Cosmos" cleaning up after itself.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the island's "security system" of the smoke monster.

My 8 year old daughter has been watching lost with me since the beginning. I've seen her going from having the subtitles read to her, to her reading them aloud to her 5 year sister (who now watches it).

Last spring we were able to vacation in Hawaii and they got to visit the YMCA camp used for the Barracks and as they watch the show, recognize North Shore scenes as well as some of the extensive beach rock structures.

Last night's episode was the first and possibly last this season that I was able to be home so we could watch together in realtime. She still gets a little confused about when you can fast forward through the commercials.

Cable went out halfway through the episode. No Realtime, no DVR recording.

Tonight I'll be sitting at my computer watching the episode - Emma on my left leg, Michaela on the right - starting with them speaking in sync with the "Previously on Lost" and ending with "Bad Robot".

Just had to share!!

When Miles was explaining to Sayid about being dead for 3 hours before he "woke up", I was hoping we could find out what Miles had heard/seen when Sayid was dead.

...and if 108 Wallace is somehow connected to Walt (his real name or something) I'm gonna feel cheated... I'm wracking my brain for a "wallace", not a Waaaaaaaaaalt.

I see the baseball as resembling Dogen's side of the scale (white)

can't remember...Is this the first time since Locke died that Kate has actually seen Flocke?

Don't know if this was a reveal or not. Before I thought that Jacob and the the MIB had certain rules( from the substitute?). Seemed like doggen couldn't kill Sayid because it was part of the deal w/ Jacob. Even if Sayid turned evil/dark? Some of the others though, I'm not sure about. I still don't know why Ben killed Locke, since he was an other, wouldn't he have rules against killing a candidate?

before i read mac's wonderfull blog or read any of the post i want to go on record and state that i am NOT liking season 6 sayid!!!! :( did i say i am NOT liking the new sayid? :)

i dont know if i can handle the rest of the season with him being so dam evil, he's my favorite..... :(

Nicely done, Mac. As always.

They purposely made at least two references to joining the other side or the wrong side, never specifying the good side or the bad side, just the opposition.

My Random Ass Theory of the Day?

Sayid is taking a page out of Sawyer's playbook and pulling a long con on Flocke. Sayid made a point of killing Dogen and Lennon and depositing them in the dirty jacuzzi so they would come back like he did. By killing them Sayid saved them from Smoky. You read it here first - Dogen and Lennon will be back.

Trail-blazing Kate just a blind follower? Since when? She's always run away and now she just ambles after Claire? Didn't buy it.

I thought for sure it would be Sawyer in the walk-in fridge. Dunno why, but Jin being in there surprised me.

Smoky rampaging through the temple was so Angel of Death in The Ten Commandments. Just wanted to see Edward G. Robinson pop in and sneer, "Yeah, see. Where's yer temple, noooowwww...."

I thought of something while watching last night's enhanced rerun of last week's episode. The 3 scenes shown in the mirrors at the lighthouse were:

1. Temple where Jacob touched Jin and Sun at their wedding
2. Church where Jacob touched a young James after his parents' funeral
3. The house where Jack grew up, but presumably was not living in as an adult and when Jacob touched him in the hospital vending machine room.

This leads me to believe that perhahps the Shepherd on the "list" is not Jack, but in fact, Christian.

Mac, love your funny comments:
"lotion in the basket"
"dirty jacuzzi"
Keep em coming!

@48 tiffani

Me, too! I love Sayid and was really hoping we'd see his story of redemption. Last night when he said "I am a good man" I was so happy, hoping he would prove it. But it looks like he's past the point of no return.

In the words of Miles, "(S)he's still hot, though." :)

Hey, all. I've been completely out of touch the last few weeks due to a project I'm working on. Just managed to get caught up on MAC's posts and a little of last weeks comments by the crowd. Just wanted to check in an throw a big shout out to the gang. Don't have much time to write anything. Wanted to say this season is really unexpected but so far has been really good. I think Sayid obviously is not completely "taken over" by whatever has infected him. Perhaps he and Claire can actually see who/what MIB really is. Of course my DVR rebooted at the point where Sayid sat by the pool and Ben was slowly backing away so now I'll need to watch it online at some point. Hope everyone's enjoying this season. Despite my disappointment in the season premier not flowing things as I expected, it really is going along quite busily at this point.

No observations from this episode to post right now. Most of what I would say has been said already. I know, this has been a useless post brought to you by the letter "V" and the number "6". Will try to post some thoughts tomorrow. Have a great day!

Sorry, I mistyped - Sayid is NOW completely "taken over"...

We've already seen Sayid drowned in a bacteria infested hot tub and rise from the dead two hours later...why wouldn't we expect to see the same thing happen to Dogen?

Final scene...waiting for Flocke zombies to start dancing... "It's close to midnight and something evil's lurking in the dark".

All the 'Candidates' have a number...are they in order of PREFERENCE do you think?

I like the Babylon 5 discussion earlier in this thread. I think the survivors, others, etc. will have to reject their allegiance to whomever they've aligned themselves with, whether it be Jacob or Smokey, becasue BOTH are bad news.

FIRST POST!

#40 Red..Neck..Man

Does this mean I owe you another plaque?

THE CHICKEN WHO IS ALWAYS LAST

I view the sideways story line like the vegetables on a high end steak house plate; you move it to the side and concentrate on the meat. But I found more commercial time than "real" island events disturbing in this episode.

If Dogen knew Sayid is evil, why give him a job to do, or why let him back into the temple? Especially in a "lock down" situation. The only reason I can fathom is that he wanted to be killed (to transform?) Remember, ghost Jacob was doing something at the spring when Hurley walked in pre-mission . . . maybe reversing the infected spring to create his own zombie army of Dogen and Lennon.

It was telling that the knife into Flocke came out with no blood. There are no traits of a human body just the mere illusion of one. It infers that there are multiple Flockes (one with Sawyer in the cave, and one at the temple) The most important clue on the night was when Dogen said Flocke/MIB was "evil incarnate," which means an evil deity or spirit embodied in flesh (human form).

The Others are lemmings.

IMO, Kate never made it out of the pit alive (with Claire's foreshadowing comments to Jin); Kate is at least "infected" as seen by the confused look on her face, so she will become part of the Flocke zombie army.

For no apparent reason, Flocke cannot now "kill" as Smokey unless the sun sets. He waited until dark to have Jacob and his guards killed; and the temple massacre was after sundown. It gets back to the myth that the gods of the underworld are more powerful at night while the sun god is weak and needs protection.

I suspect the person Jacob is waiting for to come to the island is a more powerful deity. But the final scene is starting to head the show down the B-movie path of a final battle between vampires and werewolves.

#54 - bearandbu

Are we a Bones fan?
He would rival Sawyer..

@43 I completely agree with the "Langoliers" parallel. It's awesome to finally see what has been making that eerie noise since the pilot.

What if Sayid meant SHANNON -- and not Nadia -- when he said to Flocke "I had her and she died in my arms."

We are all assuming it was Nadia but what if he was referring to Shannon instead? He never said a name... just "her"

@51 Christin

dam straight!!! sayid WILL always be hot. i just hope he doent comes back from the dark side. :)

namaste!!!

in resonse to post#14, typical American to say that. While the US got an automatic berth into the final 4 Canada had to play another 3 games to get there, so no the US did not beat us, while both teams were evenly matched we did win so suck it up buttercup!! Try again in another 4 years.
Lost was the most confusing and yet compellingly dark episode this week, but if they don't start answering some old questions soon we may never get the answers we crave and need.
excellent recap this week, keep em coming.

Wow, it's 10:17 and only 54 posts.

I guess I will have to wait until later in the day to hear what I really saw on last night's epi.

Thanks Mac for the review. It really does enhance the whole viewing experience to listen to different opinions and theories.

Last night before the epi I dead Doc Jensen's thoughts on where the series is going. Makes a lot of sense (But then everything in Lost has always related to everything else). I am not sure I like where he thinks it is going.

and I too was wondering who has seen Locke since he was Flocke. I guess the left behinders have no idea that he died. As far as they knew, He went down the well to save them, right? Last they saw him? Did they know he had died?

MIF

Some quick remarks:
Long time ago I (before man in black), I thought Jacob was trapped ("Help me") in the cabin with the ASH around it, now I am certain it was the man in black, as Dogen said, they had him trapped for a long time.
The flash sideways, Dogen's son is too young to be the one he talked about (he was on the island for a long time.) His son dies without Jacob, and he has another in the sideways.
Second part of flash sideways, as soon as Flocke said Sayid could see Nadia again, bang it hit me, the sideways is the deal Flocke will make with everyone. Happiville is the new reality if you follow him.
Now will it end in that reality or will be another choice everyone must make?

@49 ransomjackson expostulated:

> Sayid made a point of killing Dogen and Lennon and depositing them in the dirty jacuzzi so they would come back like he did. By killing them Sayid saved them from Smoky. You read it here first - Dogen and Lennon will be back.

That was my first thought - wait a minute, by dumping the bodies in the pool, won't they be healed?

Great Episode, 10 more!!!

What if Sayid meant SHANNON - #60. Posted by: GatorGal

WHOOAAA. GOOD POINT!!!!!

GRAA Mac!

@60 Gator Gal
"What if Sayid meant SHANNON -- and not Nadia"

Or what if Sayid meant Nadia but Flocke gives him Shannon instead (not a terrible trade off BTW)? Could such a thing turn Sayid against Flocke?

Meanwhile, I'm fascinated by Sayid's claims of a moral failing in his reply to Nadia that he doesn't deserve her. In the 815 crash timeline he had no such issues. Why the difference? I'm hopeful they will explore that at some point but with only 12 episodes to go it may fall by the wayside.

Sticking to Mac's "flesh wound" observation, Ben's reaction to Sayid was to "Run Away!!!"

As to the Alternate Timeline in general, could it be that Jacob is trying to get these people where he needs them without the benefit of the island? Apologies if that was asked already.

My 2 cents that have not really much to do with the episode....
I can't believe I got me some more Keamy, only to have Sayid take him down again!!
**Heavy Sigh**

As always, great review! and comments!

Another "mirror image" scene in this ep! Sayid catches his reflection in the window glass of Nadia's house, just before he enters.

#49 - ransomjackson - Dogen and Lennon in the jacuzzi

My thoughts exactly. Don't think we've seen the last of them. I think that's a gimmy, given this spa's "rejuvinating" properties.

In the Alt time, does anybody else wonder what was up with that evil look in Sayid's eye when he hugs Nadia?

And man, when Kate looks down into Claire's "cage". The look on Claire's face, genuinely freaky. Was it "I've been waiting for you."?

I'm also with the school of thought that we're going to see all the kids coming together as they emerge from the jungle like a scene from "Children of the Corn"

Claire is singing Catch A Falling Star in The Hole. And the same melody is playing when she and Kate are walking through the destroyed temple. Claire has referenced that song in earlier eps as well. "Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket, never let it fade away. Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket, save it for a rainy day." etc.

Also I think Cindy's scarf lives - it looked like she had something tied in her hair.

Gator Gal, good call on "her": Shannon or Nadia?

Re: Jin

Remember all the cash he was carrying on the airplane? Mr. Paik must be in with or connected to Keamy somehow. I bet the feds confiscated the $$$$ and Keamy was not in the mood to make anymore eggs. Since Keamy worked for Widmore in timeline #1 and seems to be on his own in alt.timeline then is Widmore and Paik connected? So confusing.....

We never saw Claire and Kate get out of the hole. You never know what happens with Crazy Claire.

My other question is who came to Kate in her dream as Claire and said "Don't you dare bring him back". Couldn't be the current version of Claire. Any ideas?

@35- Sayid died in Island world and is still alive in sideways world. So the Matrix idea wouldn't work. Claire and Locke are dead too and alive in sideways.

Way, way long ago in posts and episodes gone by, I mentioned (along with others) that the "smoke monster" might indeed be a Jinn. Jinny's are a "smokey" entity trapped in some type of container (or place?) and have the ability to "grant wishes." Did Flocke not say to Sayid - "What if you could have anything in the world, anything. I can give it to you." (Something along those lines anyway.) I immediately thought back to the theories of Smokey being a Jinn. Going to go bing and google Jinn's again now.

Also, I have pondered the thought that this healing jacuzzi is actually the allusive "Fountain of Youth" which would explain a lot. 1) People like Widmore searching for it. 2)Ageless Richard (and MIB and Jacob). 3) The healing powers. Etc.

Seems to me if there really was a magical Jinny, there could also be a fountain of youth.

MMMmmmkay - I'm jus sayin...

Alt time line: showing us that each person has within them the ability to choose good. Even sayid, who killed keamy...he avoided confrontation but when keamy brought up nadia’s children, a barely veiled threat to the children, I thought to myself…."threaten my kids? Now you have to die." He did not kill to neutralize his brother’s stupid financial choice; he killed to protect those innocent kids. I don't consider that to be giving in to evil.

Ransomjackson: I wonder about Sayid running a con on Flocke too. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Smokey, or its masters, is bad. The only unequivocal redemption on the show was Eko. He knew what he did and he changed.He knew who he was. Smokey, as ekos brother, tried to get Eko to waiver but Eko would not waiver. He was certain. Smokey could not use him, so Eko died. Smokey killed the one redeemed soul. Smokey is bad. And yes, I know the gentleman who played Eko wanted off the show so he had to die. But the writers didn't have to kill him the way they did. They chose how to kill him and I think it was a clue to the true nature of Smokey.

Alt: I think all the 815ers will end up flying someplace together...Indonesia? Which would explain the BIGGEST question I have which is: Why isn’t anyone, the press, family, etc. the press the least bit concerned with the fact that flight 815 crashed in the wrong ocean, 4000 miles in the wrong direction from it’s departure point?

@15 PlainSimple
No Sun and Jin episode this week but the show's title was Sundown--does that count?
From the title I was expecting a Sun episode...

How come Ilana knows about the secret passage? Dogen did not seem aware when he spoke with Hurley down there, unless he was just trying not to tip Hurley off about its existence. The other Temple others seem to not know of it either as no one else seemed to be seeking out its safety during the attack. How does someone from off island like Ilana know about it and not people who live there? What's so special about her?

O yeah and @30 Rhywun
That fight scene in They Live rules!

Just wanted to answer the question regarding Doogen & the baseball. If you remember the story he was telling Sayid right before Sayid killed him. He was picking his son up from a baseball game the night he crashed his car & killed his son. Most likely the baseball belonged to his son & only has meaning to him. Just wanted to throw that out there.

@76 I have been thinking the same thing -- that smokey could be a jinn. Jinns can be either good or bad and can take the form of a human or animal.

my #61 post should have read that i hope sayid DOES come back from the dark side. :)

namaste!!

I was intrigued by Dogen's statements to Sayid relating to the scale of good and evil as it applies to every man. He said that Sayid's tipped in the wrong direction. Could this all be a game in which Jacob tries to get flawed individuals to tip towards the good?

I am also trying to make sense of the scene where Ben "released" Smokey to attack Keamy and his men. If we now know that Smokey and the MIB are the same, what implications does that have in that scene? If Smokey was trapped in the pool, how was the MIB trapped in the cabin? Didn't the ash ring being broken and Smokey's release both happen in that same season finale? Are they the same or not?

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH! Has there ever been a show that has created this level of obsession? It annoys the hell out of me but I LOVE it.

where the heck is WIDMORE? he has to resurface at some point.

Oh SNAP - just check out what Wikipedia says about a Jinn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie

I'm more convienced than ever!n (and sorry I spelled Genie wrong in my earlier post... duh...)

This episode's title, "Sundown" does not refer to Sun or Jin (obviously). It refers to Sayid's religion. Muslims pray 5 times a day -- including at sundown. This is why the episode was titled as such: Flocke's damage once sundown approaches.

@49 & @54...if Lennon & Dogen come back to life after being left in the dirty jacuzzi does that mean they will come back with the "darkness" growing inside them also? like Sayid?

it's never been explained to us why or how the "darkness" started in him...i thought maybe because the spring was muddy when they tryed to save him...they should have just let him die because the healing spring was taken over by evil somehow.

From The Qur'an - Al-Hijr 15:26-42

26. And indeed, We created man from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.

27. And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.

28. And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.

29. "So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him."

30. So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together.

31. Except Iblîs (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators.

32. (Allâh) said: "O Iblîs (Satan)! What is your reason for not being among the prostrators?"

33. [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "I am not the one to prostrate myself to a human being, whom You created from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud."

34. (Allâh) said: "Then, get out from here, for verily, you are Rajîm (an outcast or a cursed one)." [Tafsîr At-Tabarî]

35. "And verily, the curse shall be upon you till the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)."

36. [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day they (the dead) will be resurrected."

37. Allâh said: "Then, verily, you are of those reprieved,

38. "Till the Day of the time appointed."

39. [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me, I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead them all.

40. "Except Your chosen, (guided) slaves among them."

41. (Allâh) said: "This is the Way which will lead straight to Me."

42. "Certainly, you shall have no authority over My slaves, except those who follow you of the Ghâwîn (Mushrikûn and those who go astray, criminals, polytheists, and evil-doers, etc.).

@65 - "the sideways is the deal Flocke will make with everyone. Happiville is the new reality if you follow him."

but how does that explain Locke in the flash sideways? How could he still be alive?

Notice that Smokey/Locke/Man in Black can only react to things he 'sees' in the form of Locke, or in the form of Smokey. While very shrewd, he is not 'all-knowing' and / or omnipotent.

Couldn't the episode names just be what we see at 55 minutes into a given episode? ;) Would explain a lot.

In "What Kate Does", we learn around that time what she does...
In "The Substitute", we learn around that time that Jacob is looking for
In "Lighthouse", we get to see a cool lighthouse
In "Sundown", we get to see the sun go down.

It all works! I've solved the mystery!...

Ok, I'll hush now... I know insanity when I see it coming...

Nice job as always Mac.

I'm thinking Sayid is died & Jacob took over his body. Here are my reasons:

1. Jacob put Sayid on the VIP list to gain access to the temple.
2. The reason why the scale tipped over to evil after Jacob stepped into Sayid's body was because Sayid's past is way to dark.
3.Yet another test for Jack,per Jacob, to see if he would give the pill to Sayid. The conversation Jack had with Sayid about the pill was a little weird especially the why Sayid was acting.
4. When Dogen told him to kill the person outside, he never said who just someone he knows. I was waiting for him to stab Kate-that would have been nice- but he bypassed her & went on to Flocke. Thats what gave it away for me. He also stabbed Flocke cause he knows "The Rules" Flocke can't kill Sayid. This is where the term "Keep your friends close & your enemies closer" comes in when Sayid/Jacob decides to join Flocke.
5. The look that Ben had after he woke up after Ajira plane crashed when he saw Locke, the man he killed is the same look he had when he saw Sayid/Jacob, the man he killed.
6. This is why Sayid/Jacob killed Dogen, to prove to Flocke that he is ready to join him & to let Flocke gain access to the temple, But knowing Dogen will resurrect momentarily.

@18, Ross: Regarding Keamy's death: My bad.

@35, Rosebud: "What happens in sideways world, though, if they are killed in the island, is it like the matrix, where they're erased also?"

I think not. After all, we had sideways Locke and he's dead on the Island.

@37, davidrh: Sayid's reflection. That's right. Thanks! Another bad by me.

@49, ransomjackson: "Sayid is taking a page out of Sawyer's playbook and pulling a long con on Flocke. Sayid made a point of killing Dogen and Lennon and depositing them in the dirty jacuzzi so they would come back like he did. By killing them Sayid saved them from Smoky. You read it here first - Dogen and Lennon will be back."

Well, in the Lost Supper poster Sayid was in the place of Judas and (F)Locke in the place of Jesus, so will Sayid betray FLocke, but in doing so actually help his plans along?

@57, welh: "But the final scene is starting to head the show down the B-movie path of a final battle between vampires and werewolves."

I hope that all the intricacies of the past 5 seasons are not all just run-up to a big boring battle between two "teams", whatever they might represent. Seems like a waste of good story potential.

@26, Michael Moncur: Wow. That was weird. I was just planning to post something along the same lines as your post, complete with Babylon 5 analogy. There was something about yesterday's episode that really brought it home apparently, wasn't there? Let me elaborate a bit (I won't be surprised if in the 5+ years of Lost theorizing someone else has voiced similar suspicions).

MIB and Jacob seem to be representing not so much evil and good, but chaos and order, or destruction and preservation. Both sides are usually needed, when you concentrate on only one side things go badly. First let's have a look at Smokey and his bandits. He manifests as a pillar of smoke. A force of nature. A volcano that can bury whole cities under its lava, which is awful for the people who live there, but can be good news for future generations who will find fertile ground there. Yep, Smokey brings fertility. Hence, as long as he is trapped, there will be no new Island babies. So who does FLocke recruit? The destructive Castaways: Sawyer the con man killer, Sayid the torturer, Kate the Killer, but also Claire, the Mother. And what about Jin? Is he still Jin the mobster, joining Smokey, or is he now in line with the other side? And smokey himself? He literally lives off death. He needed Locke to die so he can act and he needed Jacob to die so he can act freely.

Then there's Jacob on the other side. He wants order and preservation. He has preserved lots of old buildings, the temple, the light house, part of the statue (I wouldn't be surprised if we find out that MIB was the one who destroyed the rest of it). He orders people by number (and coincidentally orders them around as well). He can't let go of people. He has he healing hot tub and can't even let himself die without popping back into Hurley's mind. But just as MIB also he has gone too far in his desires. He resorted to manipulating people. His fixation on the Island made him blind for the suffering he caused off-Island. His flunkies The Others have gotten way out of control in their mission of protecting the Island. He is even so busy preserving the current, that he sacrifices the future: By trapping MIB it seems he has made it impossible for newborns and their mothers to survive on the Island. The Others need to bring Other Others in from outside to replenish their population. Not good. Jacob also needs MIB to balance him, just like MIB needs Jacob. So who does Jacob recruit. Jack the Fixer of course and Hurley who sees dead people (can't let go of them!) and even has a knack for numbers. Well, some Numbers anyway. And now it seems our other dead seeer Miles is on his way to Jacob as well. We don't know nearly enough about Lapidus and Sun seems just as much on the fence as Jin. Where Jin started out on the side of destruction, but seemed to have redeemed himself, Sun started out on the other side, but last year in the O6 storyline we saw her coming dangerously close to destruction. And after all she IS a mother. I won't be surprised if the next episodes see Jin escaping FLocke and fleeing to Jacob and at the same time Sun leaving the Jacob group to go looking for Jin and ending up with the FLock(e).

One possible problem for this hypothesis are the father killing habits of the Others. Or was this just Ben's doing?

@74 - Widmore and Paik did have some kind of connection...somehow because they were both wealthy business men. they must have done some business together at some point.

from http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Widmore:

"Some time later, Sun approached Widmore in London. At first he pretended to merely know her through his connection with her father. However, Sun confronted him, indicating that he knew she was part of the group that had been on the Island and that they were lying about it. Sun then offered to collaborate with Widmore."

@74 - oh! sorry i forgot to add this too also from lostpedia:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Paik

"Mr. Paik and Paik Heavy Industries have significant business dealings with the Hanso Foundation and the Widmore Corporation."

@BunnyLover 76,86,89
I'm happy to see the Djinn theory revisited - especially after last night's episode. From what we've seen so far this season, the Djinn theory is most certainly still in play.

Last week Cecil referred to it as vacc's Djinn theory, although in truth, many bloggers and Lost Theorists have suggested and expanded upon this theory since Season 3 - which only adds to its plausibility. Damon and Carlton gave this theory a B+ in USA Today when I submitted it during S4. (More importantly they gave me exclusive rights to use "Circle of Ash" as a band name!)

Over the last few weeks, I've been stockpiling additional info in support of this theory and will post some new insights and connections when I have a little more time - hopefully by tomorrow.

Am I imagining things or are there a lot of subtle personality changes to Sayid?

For instance, I would never have expected him to tell people that he was a "good man". I don't think pre-filthy-jacuzzi Sayid would have claimed that.

Also, remember when he complained that Dogen tortured him? I don't think old Sayid would have done that, either, nor would he have whined and complained so much. After all, he spent plenty of time in the past dishing it out.

Didn't see this posted yet but Jack was in this episode for a mere moment in the hallway at the hospital as Sayid and Nena show up.

Oops is right! My apologies and I'll go back into radio silence Mac!! My bad.

@92
Apparently if you're right we'll see Ben get his doctorate. HA!

What's sad about a character as great as Ben is that there's nowhere for him to go from now on. He's been played all these years by Jacob and is now just a rabbit caught in headlights, as evidenced by the look on his face when he sees Sayid. There are no more secrets that he holds and the writers haven't really left any aces he can hold up his sleeve. It would make sense if they got rid of him in the coming weeks. It would be tragic... but inevitable from my point of view.

One question... why does everyone refer to the alternate timeline as "parallel"? It takes place in 2004, and the current temple-timeline takes place in 2007.

So, technically, the scenes of what happened if the plane didn't crash could be considered flashbacks.

Of course by the time I get my comment written there are like 50 new ones—one of which suggested Sayid was inhabited by Jacob. I guess yeah, hence the personality changes…

@105 mac:

Didn't you already say that?

When I saw the baseball, I was wondering if LOST is really just about The Curse of the Bambino! I mean - babies and baseball have figured prominently in the show (Boston winning the world series, babies being 'stolen'). Just a thought (a stupid one, but a thought).

Also - Keamy - wow - I blurted out that he went to the Christopher Walken school of acting. What a scenery chewing job he did.

Oh and the actor playing Miles said he stopped filming way before everyone else... so i'm guessing he might not survive for long either.

The writers are probably getting rid of all the loose ends to concentrate on a few central ones in the finale.

ps @ 108 - i'm only joking.

Is Lost based on a video game??? This is sounding very familiar...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Sun

Golden Sun's story follows a band of magic-attuned "adepts" who are sent from their home town into the wide world of Weyard to prevent the potentially destructive power of alchemy from being released as it was in the past. Along the way the adepts gain new abilities, help out the local populations, and learn more about why alchemy was sealed away. The story continues in a sequel, Golden Sun: The Lost Age.

Where are Sawyer and Jin?

ALT Jin was in a meat locker, tied, gagged and otherwise incapacitated.

Island Jin is in Claire's little love shack with skeleton baby rocker and a bad leg that got not just the bear trap treatment, but the Claire surgical patch job = otherwise ...incapacitated.

Sawyer is either back drinking in New Otherton or hasn't found a way out of Flocke's cave at the bottom of the cliff face with the broken rope ladder. I can only speculate that that cave is in the cliff face by the promontory where the lighthouse is, and that Hurley and Jack will somehow find him. Seems an interesting juxtaposition to me: MiB's dark cave down low...Jacob's lighthouse up high.

As for mirrors in the ALT Sayid story, there were some shiny kitchen appliances...just saying...

The baseball is an interesting symbol to me on a number of levels:
1) the ball as the world, still subject to forces of violence, nature, inertia
2) the ball literally dropped; it certainly foreshadowed doom to me, perhaps it did for Dogen as well, which is perhaps why he stopped the fight.
3) it floated away from Dogen's hand in the Temple Jacuzzi...Castaway tribute...certainly a moment for Dogen and reflection...perhaps he'll be back 2 hours after being dead. Perhaps the finally letting go will enable him to come back.

When Dogen tells Sayid to stab the 'evil incarnate', he says that this evil will appear as a dead person Sayid knows. The first person Sayid meets outside the Temple is Kate. How come he doesn't simply stab her in the chest?

Before Claire's visit to the Temple turned Sayid's exile into a 'do me a favor and stab the guy', Miles told Sayid he'd been dead for two hours and his 'rising' was just as much a surprise to the Others as it was to the Losties.

At the end Locke smiles and gives knowing nods to both Claire and Sayid but gives Confused Kate an appraising stare before turning away to lead the Others off to new New Otherton (or maybe Zombieland). Anyone Notice the Look Flocke gives Confused Kate ANTLFGCK?

Flocke seems unsure of himself at that point.

Why?

Another burning question...in the Dirty Jacuzzi, did anyone find a floating Baby Ruth bar?... Is the Dirty Jacuzzi 'not so bad'?

Who knows Locke is dead?
Ben knows b/c he murdered him.

On Island (since they helped bury him):
Frank
Ilana
Sun

The O-6 do, though none of them attended his funeral save Jack.
Jack knows b/c he got his grandpas shoess for DeadLocke to where to get back to the Island.
Kate
Sun
Sayid
Hurley
Aaron (probably blissfully unaware)

Richard

Sawyer knows...recognizes that Flocke lacks the uncertainty the original Locke had.

Miles does not know, to my knowledge, but has The Sixth Sense and should be able to recognize that.
Claire, may not see him as Locke, so may not be aware that Locke is dead or that Flocke is 'evil incarnate'
Jin sees FLocke but may not recognize that Locke is dead.

Affiliations of those touched/candidates:
4 Locke dead...in MiB camp
8 Reyes is in Jacob's camp
15 Ford unknown but last seen with MiB
16 Jarrah appears to be in MiB camp
23 Shepherd appears to be a GDI
42 Kwon Jin: unknown but last seen with MiB and Crazy Claire

So far, Reyes is the only one firmly in Jacob's camp.
Richard, I think, is too.

Glad to see that I'm not completely off-base with my expositing. At least until next week...

Dogen's soul-baring to Sayid felt like he knew exactly what was coming and was resigned to it.

The big difference as I see it between Eko and Sayid was that while they both felt they did what they had to do to survive, Sayid at least felt bad about it. He is, at heart, deep down, a "good" man, and he was, in his mind, on a path of redemption. Eko was surviving in the only way he could, no repentence required. A lion doesn't feel sorry for the antelope, just a little gassy.

Kinda reminds me of the old saw, "Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell's afraid I'll take over."

As it said Warden Norton's needlepoint, "His judgment cometh and that Right Soon..."

Not sure this could be a reason why Ben was so scared when he saw Sayid sitting there looking evil, but isn't this the first time Ben has seen Sayid since he shot him back in 1967? With all the time traveling and different timelines, I'm not sure.

@94/ Plain Simple said:

"I hope that all the intricacies of the past 5 seasons are not all just run-up to a big boring battle between two "teams", whatever they might represent. Seems like a waste of good story potential."

I am getting a bad vibe that TPTB are giving each actor a "death scene" for their personal show reels instead of wrapping up six seasons of loose ends.

Anybody knotice a certain paralel between Ben's mataphorical "Magic Box" as described to reaLocke, and FLocke's pitch 'you could have anytning you desire' to Sayid?

(And will we be tyoping pseudoSayid soon?)

Wonder just what the capability to give someone 'anything they want' actually refers to, and can it include 'make this whole nightmare never have happened', thus explaining Flight 815/sub 2?

And, for the record:

notice
parallel
metaphorical
anything
typing

Record holder, most typos in a 9 line comment.

@ 108 MyselfandI

"When I saw the baseball, I was wondering if LOST is really just about The Curse of the Bambino!"

I was waiting for Doug Mientkiewicz to show up with the ball! Imagine that conversation:

DM: "Here you go Dogen. I had to fight the Red Sox for it but I brought you the ball. What do you need it for?"

Dogen: "Take this pill first."

Someone might have said it already (I don't have time to read everyone's post) but after Sayid tried to stab Flocke and Flocke was trying to convince him to send the temple a message I thought Sayid was talking about seeing Shannon again - The only person I ever loved died in my arms - not Nadia. Am I wrong?

That's not an exact quote btw

@Mac:
SITUBA!!!!!!
Sayid Is The Ultimate Bad Ass!!!!
Does anyone know how many episodes this last season???
inquiring minds want to know
Great episode!

@ 81 srarmon
"@76 I have been thinking the same thing -- that smokey could be a jinn. Jinns can be either good or bad and can take the form of a human or animal."

Kate's horse! The cow!

Just my two cents on the Baseball symbology. IMHO...

The baseball represents innocence. Dogen clings to the inocence of life until the until the end. It was this innocence in his son that he sacrificed so much for when he came to the island. In the end he lost innocence forever.

This is not unlike what Richard described about young ben's affair at the temple.

Dogen does not kill Sayid when he see's the Baseball and is reminded that while a darkness may be growing in Sayid, he is not guilty of evil as yet.

Regarding Sayid's comments about the only person he ever loved dying in his arms...

The whole sideways flash for him revolves around Nadia and how he thinks he is not worthy of her.

I think that the love of his life he talks to Flocke about is Nadia, not Shannon.

With Shannon, he was just a lot in like

It seems to me that a lot of the characters that have blood on their hands, pre-island arrival, all carry mementos of their past life. The baseball is just another symbolism of that.

Dogen - Baseball
Kate - Toy airplane
Sawyer - His letter to Anthony Cooper
Jin - The watch
Sayid - His picture of Nadia
Ben - The doll Annie gave him
Mr. Eko - The prayer stick

Plus, most of these characters seem to be aligned with Flocke currently or from the past (Mr. Eko) and have at least once or more during their island time shown deep regret for their actions.

Interestingly enough, I can't seem to find the same for Jacob's current recruits(Jack/Hurley/Sun/Lepidus/Ilana/Miles).

One question that was answered was that Flocke has appeared many times throughout the seasons to our characters as someone important in thier lives that has died. So, Christian, Yemi, Alex, Dave (Hurley's imaginary friend), the black horse?, and probably others i have missed were all Flocke trying to manipulate the characters in a certain way. I still think that it's a possibility that Jacob could also be a smoke monster because back in Season 3 Eko asks Locke about what he saw (meaning the smoke monster) and Locke said something along the lines of "a beautiful white light" and Eko responds "that's not what I saw."

Given Dogen's monologue by the Dirty Jacuzzi, I guess we can rule him out as being from the Black Rock -- unless they played baseball back then and his son nearly died from him having too much grog.

Now that we had more Keamy...are we going to have more cowbell?

Long-time reader, some-time poster. Great review Mac, thanks. I am very disillusioned with Lost after this epi. Everything seems so contrived. Like Miles wouldn't say, "wait, we have to get Kate!", for example. Another example as Mac pointed out that Smokey was able to enter the temple despite all the ashes. Nothing seems to be getting tied up, just more jumbled and more questions. The part about the lighthouse last week was infuriating. Even Mac, in his review above, says, "We'll see, I suppose." Our expectations had been set that we'd be getting answers, but all we have are more questions or just simply scratching our heads going, "Huh?" Funny you mention about temple security...my husband said the same thing. Yes, I noticed Jack at the hospital! In fact, I had to rewind it so my hubby could see! Anyone notice that we haven't seen Sawyer since he went into the cave with Flocke??? Sorry if these points are repeated...I didn't have time to read 110 posts. peace...

@65- I was thinking the same thing as you.
"Second part of flash sideways, as soon as Flocke said Sayid could see Nadia again, bang it hit me, the sideways is the deal Flocke will make with everyone. Happiville is the new reality if you follow him.
Now will it end in that reality or will be another choice everyone must make?"

@94. Interesting theory about the last supper. Ironically on the ABC site where you can watch shows they usually have a screen cap that you click on but for last night's episode it was a photo of the last supper. It might still be there if you go to abc.com and click on watch shows.

It also seems that FLOCKE can never sneak up on you since all of the trees will sway and the rumbling noises give it away.

Sayid has not idea that the tub of jacuzzi fun is a regenerating tub. He took an odd chance in believing that they be be resurected if that was his intention.

It seems that those who follow locke have a bad sideways life, so I wonder what Sawyers story will be and those that follow Jacob finds happiness.

Basically this Island is seeing if people can learn to make the right decisions that mirror their real lives. It was an opportunity to do it all over again but for some they couldn't resist the urge to pull the trigger while some don't. The fact Clair wanted Ethan to wait on delivering the baby to me seems that babeee will never be born.

As for Kate, she hasn't chosen sides yet, but I believe she escaped the Marshall to not get away but to find the real person that blew up the house. In her alternate world she wasn't the one that did it but got framed. Remember it wasn't her step-dad that dies in the sideways world but his employee. It might turn out that bad old step-dad framed kate and go to jail and that will be Kates vengance on him.

@126

Actually, baseball was invented in 1744 (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_baseball_invented) and the Black Rock set sail in 1845, so theoretically you could be right.

Probably not practical, since Dogen was driving when he picked up his son, but that's thinking out of the box.

I like it... so many people thinking that way just gives credence to the fact we all have so many varied thoughts and even if not practical, it drives you to learning whether or not it could be true.

Good job 'Gumbo'...

@131

Of course he could have been driving Kate's horse drawn buggy...

I think that there is a shape/figure to be seen in Smokey, when he passes over the pit, but I'm not able to freezeframe it properly.

Loved this episode. I became bored with Said a while back and thought he should have died after being shot last season, but I really like his new story arc.

So...if are to assume that one of "The Rules" is that MIB can not kill candidates? Hence the reason Dogan trys to send Shepherd and Austen outside to meet with Flocke then decides upon Sayid. Even Claire -- when brokering the deal -- tells Dogan to "send someone he can't kill" when Dogan refuses to go to the mtg himself.

So...if this IS a "Rule" then based on the List of Candidates that we've seen (on the cave walls and on the sundial in the lighthouse) has Smokey ever killed a former candidate?

I don't think so....lots of deaths but only a few actually by Smokey himself: Eko, Montaund (Rousseau's friend that got dragged into the temple).

Who else has died at the "hands" of Smokey/MIB?

@134-
Kreamy crews killed, the people in the Temple last night...

@133, I saw that as well. I thought it was people that he sucked up. It looked like bodies.

Seems no one has commented on the knife that Dogen pulled out of the ornate box from the flowers. Any ideas? Is this like a 'Silver Bullet' analogy? Usually, someone picks up on either the design inscribed or some reference. Have not seen any opinions on this yet.

@134 LostIsFound:

But Smokey has not killed anyone that has been on the List of Candidates, right? No names that we have seen on the cave wall on atop the lighthouse have been killed by Smokey. Even those whose names have been crossed out died via other means -- Rousseau, Rutherford, Faraday, etc. -- and NOT by Smokey/MIB.

Does anyone know what Jin said to Sayid in Korean when Sayid goes into the cooler? Usually someone posts translations somewhere. I haven't seen it yet.

Best Theory So Far:

"Jacob is the god of beginnings. He is The Alpha. The Man in Black? Not evil — he's the god of endings. He is the Omega. The beginning and the end. Polar, warring opposites, but absolutely necessary for life to bloom (Alpha) and to have form (Omega). Both are necessary for anything to have meaning. Jacob unchecked leads to chaos; Man In Black unchecked leads to annihilation. Both need to exist in balance; both need to be equally weighted rocks on the scale."

I take NO CREDIT for this fantabulous theory -- that all goes to Doc Jensen over at Entertainment Weekly. I do LOVE IT though...

Flocke To Sayid:

And this wasn't the first time he got someone else to do it for him, was it?

Sayid:

No...

I must have missed something because I cannot remember who else did (or might have)...

Can someone refresh my memory of who that may be? All I remember was Sawyer who left on his own terms, Kate and Jin under an agreement, and Jack and Hugo thru a hidden passage?

Funny, I didn't see Dogan or Lennon wearing a "red shirt"... lol

Random thouht from last week's episode, The Lighthouse: could David's mom be CHARLOTTE? Those bright blue eyes. That pale, creamy skin....

@111/I think this may be it – “Is Lost based on a video game??? This is sounding very familiar ... Golden_Sun”

I don’t believe it’s based on the video game, but perhaps influenced by the concepts/principles represented within the video game. Golden_Sun certainly did not originate *any* of the elements within it … it is a pretty standard fantasy derivation from *many* long-standing ideas.

That said, your comment did spark a thought with regard to alchemy and its possible ties to Lost. It fits very well with my feeling that last night’s epi showed a lot of Faustian aspects, particularly that we keep seeing there’s a price to be paid for loyalty to either Jacob or MIB. A quick wiki of Faust yields a few more interesting (at least to me) correlations:

>>>
Johann Georg Faust – “… Faust travelled with a dog and a horse, and there were rumours that the dog would sometimes transform into a servant. … Satan, chief of devils appears and announces Faust's death for the coming night. Faust at a ‘last supper’ scene … in the morning, its walls and floors are found splattered with blood and brains … and his dead body in the courtyard.”

Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa – “After Agrippa's death, rumors circulated about his having summoned demons. In the most famous of these, Agrippa, upon his deathbed, released a black dog which had been his familiar. … Mary Shelley mentioned Agrippa in some of her works. In her 1818 gothic novel Frankenstein, Agrippa's works were read and admired by Victor Frankenstein. In her 1833 short story ‘The Mortal Immortal,’ Agrippa is imagined as having created an elixir allowing his apprentice to survive for hundreds of years.”

Paracelsus – “Paracelsus believed in the Greek concept of the four elements, but he also introduced the idea that, on another level, the cosmos was fashioned from three spiritual substances: the tria prima of Mercury, Sulfur and Salt. … Smoke reflects Mercury, flame reflects Sulfur, and Ash reflects Salt. … Sulfur embodied the soul, (the emotions and desires); Salt represented the body; Mercury epitomized the spirit (imagination, moral judgment, and the higher mental faculties).”
>>>

IMO, these are some of the “familiar” bases behind both Golden_Sun and Lost.

@140/GatorGal – “I take NO CREDIT for this fantabulous theory -- that all goes to Doc Jensen over at Entertainment Weekly.”

And Doc Jensen’s just as original as Golden_Sun …

@141 - when Flocke said "And this wasn't the first time he got someone else to do it for him, was it?" he was refering to it wasn't the first time Dogen tried to get someone else to kill Sayid. because Flocke just previous to that said something to the effect that Dogen KNEW Sayid couldn't kill Flocke and sent him on a suicide mission because Dogen was sure that Flocke would end up killing Sayid out of anger....

Dogen had previously tried to get Jack to kill Sayid with the poisoned pill.

i hope that makes sense

You mentioned that Flocke promised Sayid whatever he wanted. You seem to assume that they're talking about Nadia. BUT couldn't he be talking about Shannon? He said the one thing he wants "died in his arms" or something like that.

@146- Destynee
I suggest you read post before posting. That suggestion was hours ago by a few others...

haiku cont.

Nadia nada,
Heavy Sayid heart turns black,
Temple Claire-a-fied.

Adding to my comment, Nadia never died in Sayid's arms. He got her out of the torture camp (or whatever it was) and got her to LA. She didn't die.

Shannon DID die in his arms.

@132 dbwebdude
Of course he could have been driving Kate's horse drawn buggy...

Heh!
Now I have the image of Dogen and Lennon playing the car punch game while driving the Amish wagon

Dogen pulls the Black Rock over to the parent pick up line at the ball field.

DOGEN: How wus practish son?
SON: Okay. Dad... you okay to drive?
DOGEN: Sher
SON: You're weaving
DOGEN: No, I'm not...just rough seas. No backtalk or walking the plank!
SON: Watch out for that islan--

Bumper sticker on the Black Rock: We won't brake for squid!

it's POSSIBLE that Nadia died in Sayid's arms. we just didn't see it so we can't confirm it. after she was hit by the car in LA (while Jacob was asking Sayid for directions) Sayid COULD HAVE run over to her in the street and she die in his arms if she didn't die on impact.

You might want to duck Destynee.

This may be way off base, but I've been wondering about the significance of the song "Catch A Falling Star" especially after last night's episode. I was doing research on Lucifer and found this:

In the Latin Vulgate, Jerome translated morning star as "lucifer qui mane oriebaris" (morning star that used to rise early. Already, as early as the Christian writers Tertullian and Origen, the whole passage had come to be applied to Satan. Satan began to be referred to as "Lucifer" (Morning Star).

In English, "Lucifer" generally refers to Satan. The use of the name "Lucifer" in reference to a fallen angel stems from an interpretation of Isaiah 14:3-20, a passage that speaks of a particular Babylonian King, to whom it gives the title of "Day Star", "Morning Star" (in Latin, lucifer),as fallen or destined to fall from the heavens or sky.

So is the "falling star" a reference to the MIB?

IDK, but my head is starting to hurt!

@151 I seem to remember Nadia saying something like "Take me home" to Sayid before she died.

@154 yes yes that's right! i was going to amend my comment...he runs over to her in the street and she does utter those words to him.

isn't that considered dying in his arms? i would consider it that. i don't see it being Shannon because Sayid hasn't ever mentioned her again. Yet Nadia is in all his memories/flash sideways/flashbacks etc.

There are 108 stitches in a baseball. (Thanks to Bull Durham, I know that.) Am I late on that connection here? I've always thought the producers were just having a little fun with that.

@97 - vacc - YAY! I remember you always backed up the jinn theory. And the #153 posting above gives me the willies too. Jinn/Satan/Lucifer (queue the creepy music).

If a jinn can appear as human or animal, well, there's a few to be looked at besides a horse and a cow. There's Vincent, all kinds of BUNNIES, the Hurley-Bird, spiders, the tree frog and I think that's it. (Not counting the birds that flew by the lighthouse.)

Also, what if the mirrors in the light house were used to show or prove to people that the MIB/Jinn/Smokey kept it's promise and "fixed" people's pasts by giving them what they asked for if they became one of "his" people. For example, Dogen tells the story of how his son was killed. By "selling his sole to the devil" - whether that be MIB or Jacob - his alternate life was fixed and his son lived and became a gifted piano player. To prove that, MIB or Jacob would take them to the lighthouse and dial up the alternate life in the mirror thereby proving to them they had fullfilled the promise. By breaking the mirrors, Jack may have broken the cycle and the edge that the MIB might have had (or has with) Jacob.

I know... out on a limb here but can't figure the lighthouse for any other use except spying or seeing the alternate time line. Doesn't seem like it could bring anyone TO the island as a lighthouse means "stay away from dangerous coast" in most cases.

Here's a crazy thought - I think the island went hiding under water when the Black Rock was spotted and just when the Black Rock was over the submerged island it arose from the depths and that's why it was found in the middle of the island. If it had merely landed on the island, one would think it could simply sail away. But, then again, neither could Desmond.

ouch - nose bleed

@150 Bumper sticker on the Black Rock: We won't brake for squid!

Or...

Honk if you're a Smoke Monster!

I keep thinking about all the people who are "loose" on the island.

I would guess that Jin will get the heck out of that crazy camp before they return. He and Sun might bump into each other.

Where is Richard? Will he run into Ben and that is when Ben "faces his demise?"

Sawyer is running around somewhere too or is he stuck in that cave? The ladder broke.

Who is coming to the island? Widmore? Will we see Desmond & Penny? Will they be the cavalry?

Many questions and they keep saying their answering question but not very many have been answered.

Here's to the impatient ones!

@145

Yep, makes perfect sense. I didn't think about it in the big picture, only how it related to Flocke. Thanks for the insight Ames.

@157/ BunnyLover who stated (I) can't figure the lighthouse for any other use except spying or seeing the alternate time line. Doesn't seem like it could bring anyone TO the island as a lighthouse means "stay away from dangerous coast" in most cases.

1. From Jack's reaction, someone was spying on him as a child in the pre-815 crash time line. Richard acknowledged that candidates were sought out at an early age.

2. The Lighthouse at Alexandria, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, was placed at the edge of the harbor to guide ships into port.

Alternate Sayid commits the same error with respect to Martin Keamy that on-island Sayid and Richard did...

It's two shots to the body and one to the head, folks. What if alternate Keamy is wearing a vest?

I wonder if the rain washed the ashes away and that's what permitted Flocke to enter the Temple grounds.

A couple of comments:

Dogen and Lennon might be back since they are in the pool (and perhaps Jacob worked on the pool a bit when he was there last episode when he met Hurley). But Sayid is currently evil, you don't fake those eyes.

The difference between Clare and Sayid is that Clare is delusional, she clearly has trouble discerning reality from moment to moment (she knows shes been away from the group for 3 years, but doesn't comprehend that Aaron would be 3). Sayid is not delusional, he's dangerous.

Flocke is not a good or even neutral guy, he's evil (his eyes were a lot different this episode as well). He's getting stronger as the old rules seem to lose their hold on him.

Jacob may be seeming to jerk people around, but like Ben said two episodes ago, "I don't think Jacob has ever been surprised by anything." He's a tad inscrutable and even irritating at times, but he seems to have his reasons and I'll stick with him.

No little kid to annoy/scare/anger Flocke this week. But he'll be back.

I also thought the complete absence of Richard this week was a little odd.

I do have some hopes for Ben next week. He saw something in Sayid's eyes that he had seen before. My inclination is that he's a good guy.

Sorry, I don't see the side reality as a happy(ier) ending for anyone yet.

One other little thing. The door in the temple that everyone was either looking for or went into, had the head dress and symbol associated with Egyptian goddesses Hathor or Isis (depending on the era). Could we be seeing a female deity (mother of Jacob and Flocke) soon?

Speaking of zombie walk....I would have sh!t my pants if Flocke, Sayid, Claire, Kate and the Others would have broken out into the Thriller dance at the end of the episode!!!

2 POINTS

1--The baseball connection...we associate baseball in this show with the Boston Red Sox, a team that was cursed with a losing streak. Does that mean Dogen is cursed?

2--I read other posts saying that the smoke monster was hiding out in the jacuzzi pool after Jacob died. If so, how could he be inhabiting Locke? Is smokey collecting the souls of the people he kills? Is that what got put in the water and turned it dark? Could Smokey have killed & collected the soul of someone Jacob loved? A woman perhaps? Did you see the way he was lovingly looking into the water when Hurley came in asking about the kitchen. Maybe it's a woman that Jacob and MIB love but MIB killed her for some reason...maybe he found out Jacob took her from him and killed her in a fit of rage and added her soul to his dark collection and Jacob has bound him to the island while he figures out a way to free her soul. What if this woman turned out to be a dead ringer for Kate? That would explain the second glance Flocke gave her at the temple. What if she ends up being the one that takes MIB down in the end? What if, What if, What if.....what if i'm totally wrong! What if that's more than 2 points?

I've got a table that determines whether a person is good or evil....it's called a beer-pong table! Who's in!?!?!?!

@39/davidrh - "Loved the ending slow motion ZOMBIE-WALK and the really weird other-worldly music"
@166/RNM - "Speaking of zombie walk..."

The zombie dance talk reminds of THE most disturbing/weird scene of this nature, ever ... from the Belgian film "Calvaire" ...

http://tinyurl.com/ydqvqj9

Still freaks me out when I see it!

@166 RNM...no, not the Thriller dance, they should've all "done the Time Warp again" That would be CLASSIC.

What if we have all the timelines wrong. First of all, I don't remember seeing the announcement that "this is a flash sideways" when moving over the Sayed's alt timeline.
Also, my first impression way back when they first introduced Desmond in the hatch was that it was either in the 1950's or the person in the hatch thought he was still in the fifties based on the old-time record player and the the music it was playing. What about Hurley hearing Glen Miller music over the radio? The song last night is an old Perry Como hit. The car Miles was driving when he went to help the lady cross her grandson/son was some old-looking model. The Dharma commune looks a lot like some of the housing projects that sprang up after WWII - fifties era.

Also, as someone mentioned before, there is something going on with the dagger that Dogen pulled out from a flower pot, carefully dusted off the box and then removed very carefully.

@126 Gumbo

After the Jack episode where Dogen showed up in Jack's 2004 ALT-timeline I assumed he wasn't from the Black Rock but rather from our present.

I don't think all the dead people we've seen have been MIB. Some like Dave have been seen off island and MIB is supposedly trapped on the island and trying to leave.

@166 RNM @170 L2LW Thriller & Time warp.

I filled-in the sound effects as they zombied away, chanting:

"Crab-peo-ple -- crab-peo-ple -- crab-peo-ple"

loved this episode,
felt almost like a season finale,
the war on the island that was mentioned in season 5 now begins.

This darn lost thing is starting to make total sense to me now. I hope they don't try and ruin things by "over explaining" it. The island is a kind of gigantic tardis thing unstuck in time - placed in crucial tectonic pressure points in time to prevent gigantic eruptions that would see man annihilating it's self - so for this formula to work you need equal forces of good and evil - whether you are good or evil is irrelevant so long as it these forces are balanced. The series will end with two members of the original Oceanic voyage taking on the roles of Ying and Yang - Jacob and Smoke monster ( or flocke if you will) and the great classic standoff will continue in true Greek theater fashion - protecting progress until there is an end to progress ( it only ends once etc...).
I just hope that Sayid finds redemption because he's been having such a hard time of things - you know "trying to be a good person and constantly getting the metaphorical kick in the teeth for his efforts ( plus he is a super-cool character) but I am starting to see Jack as the new Jacob ( no-brainer - it's a J thing) and Sayid as "old smokie - I guess that works out to be a S thing but that's just silly). James will finale realize that Jack is the only friend he's ever had even though he hates his guts ( and that just how James roles)- James and Jack in the end are both broken hero's who will make a whole in the end and Sayid (sad to say)is the classic tragic anti-hero.
Well that my Pinot Noir assessment

The Baseball! I have been searching for any other Lost fan who recognizes the profound significance of Dogen's baseballs (beside the obvious one relating to his son). I haven't seen any comments, so I figured it was time I spoke up! I believe that the baseball represents all that this wonderful television show is attempting to reflect: that you can attempt to alter your circumstances, but essentially fate is fate. You may be wondering how in the world does that relate to a baseball. The answer lies in the stitching of baseball (bear with me here...I know what I am talking about). The stitching on a baseball is also known as an "infinite loop," much like certain renowned physicists' or astronomers' visions of the universe (see Stephen Hawking or Carl Sagan). Essentially, the stitching on a baseball, like the universe itself, is an infinite loop insofar as you could bend it and twist it and turn it, but at the end of the day it is a loop...changeable but finite. The characters on Lost are experiencing this phenomenon of the infinite loop of the universe as they are creeping along in various realities/flashes/lives, and somehow not really escaping their fates. The details may differ, but it seems that there lives are playing out like the infinite loop of the baseball stitching!!!

@40. Red...Neck...Man: Killjoy!

@46. 74 aka Steve: yes. Kate had no idea FLocke was around.

@49. ransomjackson: Kate's whole purpose of going back to the Island was to get Claire, so of course now that she found her she is going where Claire goes.

@62. Al H: The US got an automatic berth into the final 8, not 4. We played Switzerland (whom we beat in regulation...twice) to make the final 4.

@104. LostInConnecticut: Do people not learn the definition of "parallel" in schools any more?

@151. Ames: Actually, we DID see Nadia die in Sayid's arms. Those of us watching the show, anyhow...

#112. Posted by: Gumbo at March 3, 2010 2:04 PM---When Dogen tells Sayid to stab the 'evil incarnate', he says that this evil will appear as a dead person Sayid knows. The first person Sayid meets outside the Temple is Kate. How come he doesn't simply stab her in the chest?

Because Kate is not a "dead person Sayid knows."

----------

#171. Posted by: tesla at March 3, 2010 8:19 PM---What if we have all the timelines wrong. First of all, I don't remember seeing the announcement that "this is a flash sideways" when moving over the Sayed's alt timeline.

Thats because this was a new episode. We dont see the subtitles until they repeat the "enhanced" episode the following week.

@140 GatorGal:

the concept of Jacob and MIB as balancing forces of life and death has been knocked around for some time here- if Doc Jensen wants to be quicker to the dance, he should stop by this blog more often....

TPTB could not be more blatant about the connection of Smokey and death, so if this is one great magoo switcheroo, I'll tip my hat and be the first to admit I've been "had".

If the two children had not left the temple and had been slaughtered with everybody else, would that have sealed the deal for those still holding the position of Smokey as good?
******

Mac, I see your streak on citing Jacob as douche just hit two weeks in a row. If the story is partly about lost, broken people who must find redemption, doesn't that involve sacrifice and an acknowledgement of one's mistakes?

Dogen had to make a sacrifice to redeem what he had done to his child. Unlike Smokey, Jacob's reward for that sacrifice was not death, but for the healing and life of his child.

Who is the worst character in the sideways flashes? Charlie, still a "lost" herion addict. Why? Because he was deprived of his redemption, of the sacrifice he made in the Looking Glass (Sideways Charlie: "I was supposed to die").

Desmond's entire story with all of its looping back and forth in time is one of personal sacrifice- I mentioned the parallel last week of the wine at the monostary being named after the mountain where Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac.

I don't like the sideways angle much, myself. But while we (myself included) have obsessed over the mythology of Lost, D&C have repeatedly described this as a character study, rather than a work of fantasy or science fiction.

My guess is they committed to this parallel storyline a long time ago. If I had won the Lost obsessed viewer lottery and they had asked me for my opinion, I would have told them there is a reason why Kansas is in black and white, and Oz is in color. Everybody remembers the talking scarecrow, no one cares about the humble farmhand.

Mac, GRAA - looking forward to The LOST Blog Guide to Macronyms featuring haiku by DocH!

It was a good episode, but a really GREAT bunch of observations and theorizations here this week:

- Not one, not two, but THREE Stephen King references that I counted (after different ones last week!)

- A couple of posts about how these episodes felt like a video game acted as a springboard to a post about alchemy and how it relates to concepts in Lost as originally set forth by Faust, Agrippa and Parcelsus.

- Speaking of alchemy, how about frying an egg > one's soul can be encapsulated in an egg > Smokey Death Train devours the souls of its victims and displays them in its contrails.

- A couple of posts about djinn led to a lengthy and very germane quote from the Qur'an.

- And (this is America, after all!) Baseball. Props to arizona_gal for making the connection that there's 108 stitches in a baseball - should be worth a Darlton autographed script or something!
I can't help but think there's more than just the father-son sentimental connection there - Dogen had Benjamin Linus Eyes when it dropped off the table!

Forgive me if any of the following has been discussed. I've had a death in my family and I'm just catching up on the show.

#125

Way back when, I was thinking that the MIB needed a body to make contact with our castaways. If that's the case, it made sense for the others to burn the bodies of the deceased. Our castaways always buried the bodies. Yemi and Locke were the only two to remain on the island and we still don't know what happened to Christian Shephard's body.

Christian was the first to appear both on and off the island. Could he be Jacob? Ben's mother appeared but she died off island. Even Richard questioned that fact. It appears that Jacob could leave the island anytime he wanted.

Sawyer saw both the horse and the kid. Maybe Sawyer can see Jacob.

Walt appeared and he wasn't dead.

Maybe whoever is watching the lighthouse mirrors can take on an image that impacted someone's life - like Kate's horse or Hurley's Dave. Only someone watching would know about them.

??Did Jacob bleed when Ben stabbed him?

Also, if I recall correctly, the last time Locke was mentioned to Kate was at the airport with Jack when he showed her the obit. She was not happy with him at that time. I think the surprise meeting would be for Kate, not Locke.

Re#130 I missed the part about an employee dying and not the step-dad. Where was that scene?

Excluding Boone, Shannon, Rose and Bernard, the only castaways I can come up with that don't have a connection to children are Kate and Hurley. (If it hasn't been mentioned, Rose is now on the TV show Southland.) Could the 'they are coming' be the children?

I had a question because my memory of this is a little fuzzy,

was nadia's accident pre sayid's return to the island?

The genie thing is pretty cool, I'd like to see if Flocke can make good on his promises though.

108 stitches in a baseball, just goes to show how much the writers and producers pay attention to detail when using props. sets on this show. Really, who takes the time to think all this stuff up? I don't know but I LOVE it.

@14. Posted by: OlyGold

re: Canada Hockey Gold

Um...... Ok.......
I know Lost encourages us to use our imagination, but c'mon...

It was a great game, and you shouldn't be so surly! Both teams played well.

No need to pull a Claire on me... ;)

@26. Posted by: Michael Moncur

re: Babylon 5

"Who are you?" "What do you want?"

The show has been brought up a few times at this blog, but not this season.

Yeah - I could see Jacob as a Vorlon. He's been a around, supposed to be good, supposed to be helping. Always keeping info away!!!!

Haven't seen the show in ages. Perhaps when Lost finishes, a re-watch will be in order.

@33. Posted by: D.B. Sweeney

re: Jacob's douche-baggery

People are mere pawns for Jacob. He totally knew bad things were gonna happen - possibly even helped them happen. He just made sure that those that he needed were safe.

Boy - those Temple Others sure lost faith quick and went turncoat. Dogen - you shoulda spoke to them in English!

@49. Posted by: ransomjackson

re: dirty jacuzzi

My first thought was - So.... killed, then left behind in a healing pool. Whatever could the possibilities be?

@60. Posted by: GatorGal

re: What if Sayid meant SHANNON

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!

Awesome pick-up, but I maintain:

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!

PS
I'm laughing at memories of how annoying Shannon was, not at you!

love the review love the show.

Only thing I have to say is that when Dogen was telling Sayid about his son, it seems like he knew he is going to die and he accepted it.

There was certain look in his eyes like he understands sayid and forgives him for what he is about to do.

So I think Dogen is definitely the good guy.

I doubt that Sayid's wish is to see Shannon again because Nadia did die in his arms because as they were crossing the street Jacob let her get hit by a car. That jerk.

And if Desmond, Penny, lil' Charlie, Daniel, and Widmore don't show up in the next 10 episodes, I'm going to be peeved. Those plot lines need to be wrapped up, and I hope they're able to do that in the next few weeks.

#181. Posted by: pebspostal

Re#130 I missed the part about an employee dying and not the step-dad. Where was that scene?

It was a clip from comic-con this year. Probably more canon than a lot of other things.

@181: pebspostal

I read your note on the bodies on the island and suddenly the bells went off.

Why did Ilana say Smokey was trapped in Locke's body? Because she buried Locke's corpse. Doh! It was so simple I completely missed it.

Smokey could change back and forth at will as Yemi and Christian because the bodies remained above ground. Although Eko burned his brother's body, he did not bury it- when he returned to the plane later, the burned corpse was gone.

While we also saw the Others burn their bodies, it was done over water, and I've suggested before that Smokey is trapped to the island and is unable to pass via water or up in the air.

Christian's body, of course, has never been found, although it would be pretty ironic if it turned out to be one of the bodies found in the cave (Adam and Eve), just feet from the broken coffin. Probably not, but potentially cool twist?

Smokey appeared as Christian both before and after appearing as Yemi, and before and after appearing as Locke. The Smokey mechanical sound was heard right before Sun and Lapidus talked to Christian in the old barracks. Christian then disapears and Fake Locke immediately walks out of the jungle.

Smokey also appears as Alex in the very next scene- another body left unburied.

Each time, Smokey has chosen a human form designed specifically to manipulate an intended individual- Jacob may be manipulative, but Smokey is clearly deceitful.

Ben once described his technique as learning someone's weakness and then exploiting it- sounds very much like Smokey's m.o.

Ilana buries Locke and wa-la: Smokey can change into his essence form, but not another human body. We saw the impact of this when he tried to chase the spectral blonde boy in the forest, stumbled in frustration, and first became aware of his new form's limitations.

Ilana burned the cabin, Ilana buried Locke's body, Ilana anticipated the attack on the temple. Seems like Jacob's got one last trump card to play..

#187. Posted by: Mizzed
--------
Ilana said the "trapped" thing before they buried skunkLocke. MIB is trapped in FLocke mode because Jacob lost his Jacob mode when he was stabbed and died.

GRAA!

I'm also in the "Jacob's a douche" camp. But perhaps the lesser of two douchebags? 'Cuz the Smokester just wantonly killed bazoodles of peeps!

@Mom who watches with her kids - I found the Temple mass murder scene to be very disturbing, and I'm curious, how did the chil-ren react? An awful lotta graphic violence in this episode! Stabbing, drowning, shooting, throat slitting, smashing, not to mention the gory Leg-Sewing and Liver Hatchet Plunge in the last episode. And Claire's overall Creepiness.

Flocke does what he says he's gonna do, including genocide...

My favorite part of the badass fight is when Sayid is throwing dishware at Dogen, then just shoves the entire shelf at him. Shoulda know Dogen was history when his herb garden was laid to waste.

I also think Dogen's careful dusting off of the knife box was part OCD, part show for Sayid. He was trying to make the knife seem Special.

Acronym suggestion: DALAGBRCTITDG - Dogen And Lennon Are Gonna Be Resurrected 'Cuz They're In The Dirty Jacuzzi.

@187 Mizzed
Had a wow moment there about Locke's buried body keeping Flocke in form when I read your comment. Makes good sense.

@188 ANON2 It may or may not follow that Jacob's death trapped Flocke in form. But the burials are what HAVE prohibited him from taking other people's forms.

I've also been mulling over why Flocke is so much more physically powerful than the other human forms he's taken. Yemi, Christian, and Alex never physically moved stuff. Christian even said he couldn't help Locke when his leg was broken and he had to turn the FDW. But LockeNess can eat mangoes, give Richard the old knee, string him up, and even keep Sawyer from falling off Jacob's Ladder. Why is this? I'm thinking it's because Smokey had direct physical contact with Locke before he died, perhaps when he dragged him to the hole. Maybe it began when Locke looked deep into the Smokeyness that first time. Perhaps MIB put a bit of himself in Locke or some special connection was forged. How else would Flocke have known what Locke was thinking as he died, far, far from the island? Locke's body was long dead when he returned.

GRAA Mac!

What an episode...that look on Sayid's face when Ben showed up at the jacuzzi was totally EVIL!!! This guy sure can act and I am glad to see his role getting stronger again. I too want to know what fridge-Jin said when Sayid found him in the ATL. Anybody??

Claire...what a transformation from a cute single mother to axe-wielding, other-killing friend of Flocke. I can't wait to see how Flocke got her on his side. Would be interesting to see her reaction when she finds out Jack is her half-brother...or does she already know?

I didn't see anything wrong in the way Flocke looked at Kate in the end...my thought was he was relieved that he had one less 815-er to convince. She, though looked totally confused as to what was going on...liked the way she stopped to pick up the rifle on the way out. Can't wait to see Claire-Kate fight!

Where is Sawyer?!!

Gotta rewatch this episode!

#112. Posted by: Gumbo at March 3, 2010 2:04 PM---When Dogen tells Sayid to stab the 'evil incarnate', he says that this evil will appear as a dead person Sayid knows. The first person Sayid meets outside the Temple is Kate. How come he doesn't simply stab her in the chest?

It obviously wouldn't have mattered if he did stab her (if she was somehow "infected" too...she has been out in the jungle alone for a while...). Anyway, it wouldn't have mattered because she spoke to Sayid first just like Flocke did.

@187 Mizzed speculated:

>Why did Ilana say Smokey was trapped in Locke's body? Because she buried Locke's corpse. Doh! It was so simple I completely missed it.

But Ilana never planned to bury the body until Sun more or less insisted on it.

>Christian's body, of course, has never been found, although it would be pretty ironic if it turned out to be one of the bodies found in the cave (Adam and Eve), just feet from the broken coffin. Probably not, but potentially cool twist?

Given the advanced deterioration, probably not.

>Smokey also appears as Alex in the very next scene- another body left unburied.

Very little evidence, but when the Losties bolted the barracks area after Smokey had cleared out the Mercs, Ben did say he was going back "to say goodby to my daughter", which might have included burying.

@190 katePlusSun=Fun asked:

>I too want to know what fridge-Jin said when Sayid found him in the ATL. Anybody??

According to Lostpedia:

Sayid pulls off some tape covering Jin's mouth and Jin shouts in Korean: "Don't Kill me. Please. Let me live." Not understanding what he is saying, Sayid asks: "Who are you?" and a frustrated Jin replies: "No English."

@192 Cecil Rose: (on Christian as Adam) "Given the advanced deterioration, probably not."

The thought there was that the bodies, like much of the cast, had drifted through time at some point. Hasn't much of the speculation around Adam and Eve included the Oceanic survivors as possible candidates?

Good point about the Locke burial being driven by Sun, though.

As for Alex, if Ben buries her it is off-camera and extremely quick, as he catches up to the remaining barracks survivors in the jungle almost immediately.

During my re-watch, I found a major flaw in the LOST story line. When Cindy is protecting Emma and Zach, during the message to join Flocke in the jungle or die in the temple, there is a NEW child standing next to them! Who is this new child, who appears younger than Zach?

The appearance of a new young child in the Others camp mangles a core concept from the first five seasons of the show. The Others had no children because of the fertility issues that caused Ben to recruit Juliet to the island. Her efforts failed as all women (except Claire) died before child birth. That is why we were told that children were special and that the Others wanted them.

Re. Ilana’s statement that Flocke is now “stuck” in Locke’s body…

What if Jacob and MIB are two sides of the same coin, yin and yang, good and evil, fate and free will, what have you, and it took both of them to agree to “take over” another form? They would each have a vested interest in “possessing” candidates to further their own agendas, pushing their candidates towards the “final showdown.” But now that Jacob is “dead”, MIB can no longer swap bodies because the entity that Jacob and MIB comprise is only at half-strength. I believe that this “half-ness” is what will lead to Flocke’s demise. That, or…

Employing vacc’s theory that MIB is in fact a jinn, then the problem is how do you kill a “supernatural” being? Knives, even ancient and well-dusted ones, apparently don’t do much. According to Mostropedia ( a reliable source above reproach I’m sure), one could kill a jinn by throwing the stone of a fruit so hard so it could, in fact, kill something. Can you say Pass the avocado…really really fast?

Time for Ransom’s Random Ass Theory of the Day…

I also think that Adam and Eve are actually Jacob and MIB in some previous iteration. Their appearance, the forms that they currently reside in, are merely containers. To me it only makes sense. Two halves of a whole, good and bad, yin and yang, black and white, man and woman…Rose and Bernard.

Hey, if I had to live with Bernard for all of eternity I’d wanna kill him too. Rose is hot…love her moxie.

@ 195 welh

"The appearance of a new young child in the Others camp mangles a core concept from the first five seasons of the show."

Remember that the Others kidnapped all the children that had been on Oceanic 815 from the two beach camps (except for Walt who was taken from the raft by Mr. Friendly). They never said that were only 3 children on the plane so it's assumed that there were a few more.

In my post #10 I asked if Ben made it to the secret passageway with Ilana and the others. I just watched Lost Untangled and there it's claimed he did not:

http://tinyurl.com/ycxe3m9

Just thought I'd throw that out here.

Does anyone else think that maaaybe Locke was kinda, sorta, just a little, like without him knowing, was taken over, but not totally, (sorta like cancer, it's there but you don't know until it's too late) from Day 1 when the plane crashed? That's why he could walk? And then slowly slowly slowly, the beasty emerges?

That's why he always "felt" the island?
That's why Ben killed him 'cause Ben kinda knew?

But then that would open the door for cure of Rose's cancer wouldn't it.

Just a really out-there thought....

@161 - welh - Thanks for the explanation of The Lighthouse at Alexandria.

Concerning what is being seen in the lighthouse mirrors, Jack only mentions that he sees the house he grew up in and assumes he's been spied on all his life. But what if he's actually viewing his alternate life where he's in his father's house looking for the will with his mother? We haven't seen an alternate life for Sawyer (the church steeple) and for Jin and Sun (the pagodas - is that right?) except for Jin being in Sayid's alternate life. But WHEN during the alternate life's? I mean there's been no evidence provided to indicate the alternate life views are all at the same "moment" or year, or day, etc.

If only Jack hadn't gone all Locke on the mirrors. I could see the old Locke destroying the mirrors, as he pretty much destroyed everything else that was important or could get them off the island (i.e. submarine).

crap - nose bleeding again...

#197/ Alex (Not Rousseau):

I do not recall any background children in either camp, and Ana Lucia was clear when she said they had taken the children, she then specifically named Zach and Emma by name. A lostpedia census of the others contained no children except Zach and Emma. That is why the appearance of a new Other child is so out of place in my mind.

@183 - shikotee:

Agree about Shannon being a whiny pain in the tush. However....

(kinda Spoiler Alert).................

ABC and plenty of other media sources have confirmed that Maggie Grace (actress who plays Shannon) is coming back for this final season.

@183 - shikotee:

Agree about Shannon being a whiny pain in the tush. However....

(kinda Spoiler Alert).................

ABC and plenty of other media sources have confirmed that Maggie Grace (actress who plays Shannon) is coming back for this final season.

Just slowly going through the posts and making comments. Apologies if I'm repeating later posts.

Not_Kate @ 74 mused: "Remember all the cash he was carrying on the airplane? Mr. Paik must be in with or connected to Keamy somehow. I bet the feds confiscated the $$$$ and Keamy was not in the mood to make anymore eggs. Since Keamy worked for Widmore in timeline #1 and seems to be on his own in alt.timeline then is Widmore and Paik connected? So confusing....."

If you go to Lostpedia and read the entries on Paik, the Hanso Foundation, and Widmore, it seems that in a lot of the extra material (books, games, etc.) it has been suggested that these three corporations all have business ties. I don't think this has ever been made official on the show though.

@89 BunnyLover put up some Qu'ran verses: "27. And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire."

Smokeless flame? That doesn't sound like our smokey. He's more of a flameless smoke.

@98 AndrewTF: Agreed. That was Jarrah... sorry jarring to me as well.

Ames @90 asked
""the sideways is the deal Flocke will make with everyone. Happiville is the new reality if you follow him."
but how does that explain Locke in the flash sideways? How could he still be alive? "
I'd be surprised if the sideways story turns out to be Flocke's deal, but if it does, sideway Locke could be Helen's reward instead of the other way around?

@202/welh - "A lostpedia census of the others contained no children except Zach and Emma."

Please don't forget Lostpedia is NOT blessed-by-TPTB-canon! It's populated by viewers, and chock full of errors. I recently noted a slew of them re their list of names from the Lighthouse. Take anything you see there with a grain of salt, and get outside confirmation if possible.

Don't get me wrong, love Lostpedia, but see it more as a starting point for investigation of Lost queries, rather than a definitive source ... which it is not.

PS: The same holds true of Wikipedia; although it is *much* better policed, not everything you see has been vetted. Case in point, my wise-ass son and his friends from school got banned permanently for making realistic-looking, but fake, "joke" postings (grr). Trust no one and question authority ...

@206/ealgumby

Ah...first hand knowledge...thanks for the tip.

I try not to think about it, but the thought has popped into my mind often over the last season or so and more so now, this being the final season. I was very intrigued and loved the show "Alias" and had to believe that the ending was going to be something completely mind-blowing and well worth sitting at the edge of my seat during each episode. I was slightly disappointed. Thought the "explanation" at the end was presented too neatly and a rather small package at that. I hope that Lost doesn't disappoint like that did. There seems to be too many loose ends that need to be tied up/together.

@206 ealgumby:

Yes, internet resources are not canon. I brought this up because of personal observation, and when something pops up as being out of place, I go back, rewatch, try to find clearer picture of what I saw that raised the red flag. My memory and research has found no evidence of this child prior to this episode. Placing a person in the screen shot is purposeful, and not (hopefully) a continuity error.

It is one of these new items that nags me to be answered, especially now when a different ghost kid popped up when Flocke was marching Sawyer towards the cave.

@206 ealgumby ranter:

>Trust no one and question authority ...

That's "Trust no one over 30." Oh, wait, that's us, now.

Never mind. [best Emily Latella voice]

Dogen backwards is N E GOD. ANY GOD?

Wonder if Dogen is the pope to Jacob?

@190: katePlusSun=Fun
I too want to know what fridge-Jin said when Sayid found him in the ATL. Anybody??
I'm thinking 'Get me out of here! It's friggin cold!

@172: Crispy Seaplanes
After the Jack episode where Dogen showed up in Jack's 2004 ALT-timeline I assumed he wasn't from the Black Rock but rather from our present.

I don't think I can draw concrete conclusions that the characters are contemporaries just because they are in the same ALT episodes.

Initially, I had thought Dogen might have been from the Black Rock itself, or from a timeline more consistent with Shogun or Taipan by James Clavell. He had a way about himself that conveyed wisdom perhaps from an older generation.

I actually figured Dogen was from a time more recent than Black Rock (ie, a modern time, more contemporary to 2007, once we heard his backstory by the Dirty Jacuzzi.

@171: tesla
How come he doesn't simply stab [Kate] in the chest?

Because Kate is not a "dead person Sayid knows."

She COULD have been dead. That's my point. She's been out and about where the 'evil incarnate' has been and could have been slain out there. It's a jungle out there, after all. Not a big deal, though.

@176: Melissa Channing
Cool insight on the baseball's infinite loop!
Also, for the person who noted the 108 stitches, good call on that. I love Bull Durham, but completely forgot about that part.

@179: Mizzed
Desmond's entire story with all of its looping back and forth in time is one of personal sacrifice- I mentioned the parallel last week of the wine at the monostary being named after the mountain where Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac.

There is a novel by Dan Simmons called Hyperion, a strange blend of Sci-Fi/Fantasy meets Chaucer. Each of the characters has a "tale". One of the characters is a noted theologian whose daughter is aging backwards. He comes up with a theory based on the sacrifice of Isaac. The essence of it, if I remember correctly, is that Abraham was in a sense testing G-d. What kind of a god would demand the sacrifice of a child? Was that god worthy of his worship if it did demand such a sacrifice? Was the willingness to make such a sacrifice enough? In the words of Roger Clemens, I might be "misremembering" it, but these are some of the questions raised in that portion of the novel: questions on faith, willingness, worth, tests, etc.

@205 Plain Simple posted:
Smokeless flame? That doesn't sound like our smokey. He's more of a flameless smoke.

Not to us people who are dyslexic. Just ask Negod - oops, I meant Dogen.

@204. Posted by: GatorGal

***** Not really much of a spoiler, but you never know *****

re: Maggie Grace

Yeah - she couldn't make it for filming for the season premiere due to conflict.

So - we should expect to see her in the flash sideways world at some point. Since we now know that Nadia is married to Sayid's brother, we might very well have a storyline where Shannon and Sayid hook up in the sideways world.

I can already picture them getting it on, with Boone pulling a Jacob and watching from a window outside.

There is no way he is hooked up on her in the regular (if you can call it that) time. Shannon was his brief island nookie.....

@210/ALEX ANGEL - "Dogen backwards is N E GOD. ANY GOD?"

And as related to me by Alaïs_Longthought, "Evian spelled backwards is naive!" ;)

@ From the Mother Jones discussion

Jen: I have a sneaking feeling you're right, there's some super huge figure we haven't even met yet.
Ben: I bet we've met him/her but, we just don't know he or she is super huge.

They were talking about the idea that Ben, Whidmore, et al are just pawns for a larger force. I have been wondering why MIB's name is such a big secret. Clair refers to him as you-know-who or friend. Maybe this is why, he is someone we have already met.

Also who thinks Sun and Jin will somehow end up on opposite sides in the coming battle.

And where is Sawyer!!!!!

haiku cont.

Shogun Dogen fights,
Son of Sam takes down Lennon,
Whispers -- GET OUT NOW!

haiku cont.

Omar stabs Omer,
McKeamy's kitchen nightmare,
Barkeep! Jin on ice.

@ mizzed

"Why did Ilana say Smokey was trapped in Locke's body? Because she buried Locke's corpse. Doh! It was so simple I completely missed it."

& @ cecil in response...

"But Ilana never planned to bury the body until Sun more or less insisted on it."

If you remember Ilana said this as she was carrying Locke's body to bury it. So although it wasn't her idea it was in the works when she made the observation.

I got it...

Okay, I think this is my third post in 6 years but here it goes.

Per Mac in Season 4 The Little Prince

Rousseau's ship was named Bésixdouze, which translates to "B six twelve."
And B612 just happens to be the name of the home asteroid once inhabited by
The Little Prince. (Disclosure: I saw a few hints about this "Bésixdouze" business floating around the Interweb ... I'm not nearly smart enough to uncover such literary trickery on my own).

Then...

I posted this at that time....

There is a real life organization known as the B612 foundation. The Goal of the B612 Foundation is to significantly
alter the orbit of an asteroid, in a controlled manner, by 2015.

So now why does Claire keep singing Catch a Falling Star?

I think there is a link developing here...

Correction The Lost Prince was in Season 5

That is the Little Prince was in Season 5, I need a nap!

Hurley has podcast!

Jorge Garcia, who's already graced us with regualar blogs (Notes from the Island) now is also offering a podcast about each new S-6 episode. He records the podcasts right after the episode is filmed (months before the broadcast) and releases them right after the episode airs.

He guarantees no Lost spoilers, but not so for Harry Potter plots. A little insider inforation from his website:

My Best Line You Never Heard: Ep 601/602 LA X

The scene when we're caught by the Others and we're standing outside the temple.

HURLEY: Jacob sent us.

LENNON: Prove it.

HURLEY: Uh, okay, well, he's like in his late 30s, kinda scruffy looking... doesn't drive...

=========

Beth's (his girlfriend) new favorite line in the series: LOCKE "Have you ever parked a car in your life?!"

=========

And did Josh sit in something when he had his boxers on in the house? I mean, tell me he sat in something. Even if he didn't sit in something, please tell me he sat in something. I can't wait to ask Josh about it.

=========

Okay, we'll tell you one thing... (About "The Substitute")

that was in the script but didn't make it to the aired episode on Tuesday.

EXT. JUNGLE - DAY

Sawyer, trekking through the jungle, a step behind Locke. He stops for a beat, queasy, and then...it hits him. He angles towards a tree and -- PUKES.

See? Aren't you glad that the Drunken Sawyer Pukes moment got edited out?

And you guys thought it was going to be something important :)

==========

Hurley/Jorge's podcast is at:

www.geronimojacksbeard.blogspot.com

#219. Posted by: Aztecdoug

I was on that track when I posted above about the song; but was hesitant to voice such a silly thought! And it may have been discussed in previous seasons ... that the island istelf was indeed a star or asteroid, and after it fell into the ocean, it was slowly rising to the surface when the Black Rock was grounded on it. Or something like that. But I think you're saying that the asteroid hasn't hit yet. "They're coming"?

Losties in other contexts:

You all probabaly knew about this before me, but...

Julie (Sarah Shephard) Bowen is the Mom in the traditional family on the new sitcom "Modern Families".

Now all of you go watch Survivor, then come to my blog and comment (link under my name below)

#223. Posted by: lovelost

I was wondering last season after The Little Prince episode if the Island was part of a defense mechanism or shield against asteroids? Good vs Evil, does Mankind deserve to be saved by the Island and protected from the asteroid? Why not?

Adding to the space theme... In theory time can move back and forth beyond the event horizon of a black hole. Does the Island have some sort of relationship with a black hole?

@181, pebspostal: "Forgive me if any of the following has been discussed. I've had a death in my family and I'm just catching up on the show."

My condolences.

@186, mtncbn: "It was a clip from comic-con this year. Probably more canon than a lot of other things."

Interesting. I didn't know that. I found the clip here:
http://tinyurl.com/kuvb72

Q: Why did the flock cross the road?

A: To get the 'flock' away from 'FLocke'.

@229. Posted by: ANON2

GONG!!!!!

How does one type the sound of crickets? ;)

@230
*chirping crickets*

GRAA Mac. I still want answers to Faraday's comment about the "light looking different down here." (season 4?) TPTB have a lot to wrap in the next 12 hours. What a ride. Song from last week's epi:

Axe in the gut!
Axe in the gut!
Can't make a move
With axe in the gut!

Hmm, why is Sayid considered evil for killing Dogen nd Lennon. As if those two had any redeeming qualities!! When we first met them Dogen had just told his people to execute Jack and his crew until Hurley pulled the guitar case...The Others seem to have no good qualities in them at all, much like the Dharma folks were just ill-tempered too. Neither group is "good".

Was just re-watching the slaughter, and just wanted to mention that before Lennon is killed, he exclaims that Dogen "was the only thing keeping it out".

Didn't remember this, and thought this was something we deduced/assumed.

LoL!!!!

Check out Michael Emerson’s 1992 Prison Training Video

http://tinyurl.com/yk6lcq7

Those young bug eyes......

#234.
Check out Michael Emerson’s 1992 Prison Training Video.
----------
why? is he there with 2010 canadian (co-ed) gold medal hockey team?

While I will watch every episode the requisite four times, I have to admit that I am starting to loose interest. The revelations are lackluster at best and still more characters and questions are being introduced. The numbers are a prime example (Pun intended) Each of our losties are assigned one of the numbers which correspond with with a degree reference on a circle in the lighthouse. THATS IT!!! Please... I hope there is more to this.

My faith is faltering, and I find myself yawning.

While I will watch every episode the requisite four times, I have to admit that I am starting to loose interest. The revelations are lackluster at best and still more characters and questions are being introduced. The numbers are a prime example (Pun intended) Each of our losties are assigned one of the numbers which correspond with with a degree reference on a circle in the lighthouse. THATS IT!!! Please... I hope there is more to this.

My faith is faltering, and I find myself yawning.

sorry for the double post. i am getting angry and i accidentally clicked twice

@ #232. Posted by: lostaddict
why is Sayid considered evil for killing Dogen nd Lennon. As if those two had any redeeming qualities!!

Absolutely!!! I could not agree more.

These vermin have been around the entire time the 815 crowd has been suffering and don't really care. they steal children, who by the way act like zombie slaves, hide in the shadows, and keep what they want for themselves. Where the hell have they been for five seasons!!! Good riddance say I.

#16 (Silhouette)
Yes, the best thing to do with a spoiler is repost it so everyone can read it. Good job. :o\

Re: The mystery surrounding MIB's name

Just wondering: Does anyone know the origins of the phrase, "He whose name cannot/must not be spoken?"

Lots of ideas/questions … where to start? How about Dogen (not to be confused with any god ;) ) …

As many others have already pointed out, there is a historical basis to his name, like the seeming majority of characters on Lost: Dōgen Kigen, aka Dōgen Zenji (1200–1253).

As with other such names used previously on the show, Dogen’s namesake has a lot to say that is pertinent to the story. Found a site with lots of academic papers about Dōgen, and found this one particularly interesting:

http://tinyurl.com/yjork2w

Some Dōgen quotes with (IMO) direct correlation to Lost (somewhat lengthy, but interesting):

>>>
Two things, which both retain their uniqueness, oppose each other, negate each other, are simultaneously linked with each other and are united in one form, or, conversely, they relate to each other, are then linked to each other, and are then united in one form — it is this process that is always necessary for things to become individual and unique as they are, for things to become themselves. It is according to this model that we think of the world of things in interaction, of the material world.

I think that in the material world, time is reversible. When we come to the life-world, time becomes irreversible. This is because life is singular, and the dead do not return to life. ... Acting entities create forms. This world is the world of purposes. As I have written in my essay ‘Life’ (Seimei), the life-world, differently from the material world, includes within the individual self also its self-expression, and because the inside of the self is its own reflection, in this world action proceeds from the created to the creator, in balance between the inside and the outside.

Being-time has the quality of passage. This is to say it passes from today into tomorrow, it passes from today into yesterday, from yesterday into today. It passes from today into today, from tomorrow into tomorrow. Because this passage is a quality of time, the times of past and present do not pile onto each other.

Firewood becomes ashes, and there is no way for it to become firewood again. Although this is so, we should not see ashes as ‘after’ and firewood as ‘before’. You should know that firewood abides in the dharma-configuration of firewood, for which there is a ‘before’ and ‘after’. But although there is a difference between ‘before’ and ‘after’, it is within the limits of this dharma-configuration. Ashes abide in the dharma-configuration of ashes, and there is a ‘before’, and there is an ‘after’. Just like this firewood, which will not become firewood again after it has become ashes, a human being will not return to life again after death.
>>>

Very briefly, I see these selections pertaining to the storyline in terms of opposite balance, time travel, and “dead is dead,” among other concepts.

Once again we see the choice of a character’s name adding to the richness of the story’s tapestry, but also once again, not holding *the* “key to the show” either. My curiosity with regard to the name selection is: have these people’s thoughts/writings influenced TPTB prior to the show, or have they been researched/selected after the fact to fit the existing plot?

After the final epi has aired, I certainly hope Damon & Carlton will open up and provide such background on the show’s development.

I know the titles for the next 9 episodes. Should I post 'em here, for purposes of discussion, or will it throw folks into a tailspin? Don't want anyone to have a "Few Good Men" moment ("You can't handle the truth!"). In all honesty, they aren't super spoilerish -- just enticing! Thoughts?

@235. Posted by: Oly Gold

Awwwwwww! Such a cute little troll! Did trollie make poo-poo? Why trollie crying?
Look - shiny objects! There, there....

Don't tell me what what I can't do, indeed.

I just re-watched this episode and wanted to get some thoughts on two things I noticed.
Well, if anyone is reading this so many days after the airing.

I don't think anyone mentioned that the baseball in the scene when Dogan is holding it by the pool appears to have "06" written on it.

Also, Sayid's reflection in the door, for the most part, is cut directly down the middle of his face. Perfect symmetry. Also, and I may be grasping because I'm trying to see something, but it appears, at one point, that his reflection has no hair. Full cue ball. Anyone else watch this frame by frame?

@Sayiditisn'tso #241

"Does anyone know the origins of the phrase, "He whose name cannot/must not be spoken?"

Well sure that's Voldemort, right? THAT'S IT!! It's Voldemort and the Death Eaters vs. Harry and the Order of the Phoenix...oh, Harry, how's your scar? ;-)

@236. Posted by: Hurley's Beard

re: starting to loose interest

That's a shame. What are you going to do at this juncture - stop watching?

There are what - like 10 episodes left? Quit complaining, and enjoy the ride! When the show is finished, feel free to cut up whatever you want.

From the onset, I've had mixed feelings about the sideways thing, but instead of letting it ruin the remainder of this experience, I let it go. Thus far, the writers have provided a rich tapestry of ideas which have entertained me thoroughly, so I'll cut em some slack.

Furthermore - through my re-watch experience, I've already seen my attitude change on previous episodes that I did not enjoy, when viewed again with much more informed eyes.

Look - I get where you are coming from. I imagine many of us do. I simply don't think there is any point on squirming and complaining while this thing rolls to a close.

All this unrest over answer delivery is getting repetitive to the point where it sounds like "Waaaaaaaaaaalt!!" or "They took my son!"

Apologies if my response comes off as slightly jerk-ish. I hope you understand....

@241. Posted by: Sayiditisn'tso

Re: origins of the phrase, "He whose name cannot/must not be spoken?"

Harry Potter? ;)

I hear what you are saying. I think the concept of the power of a name has been used in various ranges of culture/fiction. Didn't Babylon 5 make use of something like this? Beetlejuice? Candyman?

Offhand, I can't trace the origins, but would be interested in learning.

@247. Posted by: mac

Agreed! Emerson is pretty good in the video.

PS - Nice to see you dilly-dallying more with the plebs here in the comments section. ;)

I know you've previously been strapped for time, and that you've come to enjoy letting things roll here on their own. It's the final stretch - give 'er!!!!!

@236

to follow up on shikotee point; i, along with many others i do believe, have lowered my expectations for the final season of what has easily become one of my all time favorite shows. i had very, very high expectations for a long time regarding how the final season would end before there was a definte end date and daydreamed about how it should end according to my personal desires. selfish i know but who doesnt daydream about ending a movie/tv show/book differently than the person(s) who created it.

should you give it a shot i think you will find LOST much more enjoyable and somewhat more accepting of how things play out, good or bad. you will certainly be less frustrated and you might even want to try watching LOST while sipping on your favorite spirit.....just dont over do it or you may have a little trouble remembering how the episode played out until a few days later.

relax and enjoy what has been one hell of a ride these past few years. shows like LOST dont come around enough and those that do dont last long beacause of lack of "ratings". i cant tell you how many interesting, well written shows with dam good potential that has gotten cancelled for this very reason, especially on the fox network!!!.... but i digress......... ;>

NAMASTE!!!!!

My next point … the lighthouse mirrors. …

@50/BEMH – “The 3 scenes shown in the mirrors at the lighthouse …”

@157/BunnyLover – “Also, what if the mirrors in the light house were used to show or prove to people that the MIB/Jinn/Smokey kept its promise … To prove that, MIB or Jacob would take them to the lighthouse and dial up the alternate life in the mirror thereby proving to them they had fulfilled the promise.”

@222/Cecil Rose – geronimojacksbeard

Listened to Jorge/Beth’s podcast at GJB last night (some of it anyway … I don’t feel so longwinded anymore, wow was that lengthy! BTW, thanks for the link Cecil), and it’s seems clear that TPTB were not trying to be clever with the mirror scene. In short, Jorge shoots down the theory that Jack’s childhood house shown in the mirror is supposed to *really* represent Christian (as Jacob met Jack at the hospital, not the house). To paraphrase, Jorge explains TPTB took a little license there, showing scenes in the mirror which viewers would recognize and associate with the candidates … for example, he points out the temple image relates to Sun/Jin’s wedding, not their house, because viewers wouldn’t recognize their house if that was shown.

I take from this a few things. Number one, it confirms that sometimes TPTB make things “easy” for the audience, rather than necessarily consistent internally. This is frustrating to some degree, because there are also times when it’s clear TPTB *do* leave Easter egg clues for us to notice/ponder/discuss … it makes it really difficult to differentiate between whether what we see “means something” or is just evidence of expedient/sloppy production.

Near the end of last epi’s thread, I made the observation that the images in the mirror did not correlate to their “proper” places on the 1-360 degree compass (e.g., the mirror was *not* pointing at 42 when the temple appeared, nor 15 when the church steeple appeared); I attributed this to continuity/production error, and that seems to be the correct interpretation (i.e., where the mirror was “really” pointing when each image appeared means nothing). Based on the podcast, it’s very clear TPTB just wanted us to notice the temple/steeple/house, and associate those images with Kwon/Ford/Shephard … I really don’t think they even considered the possibility that viewers would try to figure out where the mirror was pointing when each image appeared.

This is where the line is fine between finding/noticing what we’re “supposed to” and over-thinking/analyzing a scene. Lately it seems TPTB have been getting rather ham-fisted (dumbing down the audience?) anticipating the final epi, and subtle nuances in presentation are no longer the norm. More often than not, IMO, when we see something now that “might” have significance, it won’t … things are being made (at least apparently) more “obvious” (a trend I’m not enamored of either).

That said … I do like the idea that the mirror is correlated to the alt/sideways timeline somehow. We haven’t really seen anything to imply that, but it’s a cool idea … I envision Dogen going up to the lighthouse, and watching his son’s piano performance (or baseball game?) in the alt timeline. Going back a ways, it also makes me wonder if Juliet seeing her sister Rachel free from cancer and having had a child, was also an “alt timeline” view provided by Jacob?

Now it gets interesting! In his Mother Jones interview, Mac suggested “I'm not sure what I think of the alt timeline yet. I'm not sure if it's pure fabrication, or someone's wish, or the end of a ‘deal.’ … the lynchpin is this question: What would have happened to the castaways if Jacob hadn't intervened?”

Hmm. If true, then “Jacob’s touch” effectively ruined the lives of all the candidates, so they would be happy when presented with the “alt timeline” (i.e., if Jacob had not intervened) as an option … for a price, of course! Wow … how manipulative is THAT?! Once again, just speculation. But damn, if true … I have no other word for that, but evil (I guess Mac’s word would be “douche” ;) ).

Just sayin’ … it ain’t over ‘til it’s over, right Yogi?

@246/Ghost - "I don't think anyone mentioned that the baseball in the scene when Dogan is holding it by the pool appears to have '06' written on it."

Or maybe it's really '90' upside down?

Maybe Dogen's a Reds fan?

@241. Posted by: Sayiditisn'tso

Re: origins of the phrase, "He whose name cannot/must not be spoken?"

In folk lore - Rumpelstiltskin.

Click on my name, and wikipedia will shed some light (that most certainly has the potential to be erroneous) on "True Names".

@236, shikotee & tiffani

RE: crazy expectations

I whole-heartedly agree with shikotee and tiffani!

To return to Harry Potter for a moment, there was very much the same level of obsession, emotion, stress and hype when the 7th book came out. If you read the Amazon reviews of the Deathly Hallows immediately following the book's release, you'll see that some of them were scathing. "How dare J.K. Rowling do X, Y or Z! It's heresy!!!"

I fully expect that the same type of emotion will be felt between now and May 23rd and for awhile after the finale. When crazies like us are so emotionally invested and wrapped up in anything, we tend to become very judgmental almost with a parental type grip on it. "You can't do that to my child! I've invested six years of my life in him!"

I do also expect though, that as we gain some perspective and separation, we will learn to appreciate this show for what it was...a hell of a good ride. Case in point: I just finished reading the seventh Harry Potter with my youngest, it was much better as I read it this time than when I gulped it down in 48 hours after it came out it 2007. My oldest daughter just picked it up to re-read too, on my suggestion.

I truly feel that with perspective Lost will be like the fine spirits that tiffani recommends watching Lost with...it will only get better with age. So, I, too, am gonna try to let go and just enjoy the ride this time as well as the many times I'm sure I will re-watch in the future. Who knows, maybe I'll watch it with my daughters and enjoy their ride.

@255/ shikotee: nice link.

"Knowledge of a true name allows one to magically affect a person or being. It is stated that knowing someone's, or somethings', true name therefore gives the person (who knows the true name) power over them."

That's exactly what happened to Sayid when he met Flocke in the jungle. Flocke spoke Sayid's name before Sayid could stab (kill) him so he was under the magic spell of Flocke throughout the remainder of the episode.

In regards to losing interest...

IMO, DamCar have never given me a real reason to doubt them. Every finale, every premiere, and a hell of a lot of episodes have gone down in my books as some of the best ever. I find myself time after time thinking, "that was the best episode ever" only to say the same thing a week later.

My point is that while it seems that we really dont have a friggin clue what is going on... I believe we will on May 23rd. Maybe all our answers wont get answered, but I think a lot, the most important ones will and I've gotta say I have faith that this show can close it out and make us all very happy with the way things end up.

The video of Michael Emerson on youtube talking to Associated Press about how he was "shocked" when he read the script for the finale also helped... ps... check that video out... he's sporting potter-eske glasses with some THICK frames. Its like bug eyes x1000

In regards to losing interest...

IMO, DamCar have never given me a real reason to doubt them. Every finale, every premiere, and a hell of a lot of episodes have gone down in my books as some of the best ever. I find myself time after time thinking, "that was the best episode ever" only to say the same thing a week later.

My point is that while it seems that we really dont have a friggin clue what is going on... I believe we will on May 23rd. Maybe all our answers wont get answered, but I think a lot, the most important ones will and I've gotta say I have faith that this show can close it out and make us all very happy with the way things end up.

The video of Michael Emerson on youtube talking to Associated Press about how he was "shocked" when he read the script for the finale also helped... ps... check that video out... he's sporting potter-eske glasses with some THICK frames. Its like bug eyes x1000

Upon rewatch of this episode I was struck by the CHOICE of the words from Sayid and Flocke during their encounter in the jungle:

Flocke: "WHAT IF I told you that you could have anything you wanted?"
(NOTE the WHAT IF phrase)

Flocke: "WHAT IF I said you could have anything in the entire world?" (NOTE that WHAT IF means something different than saying ,"You can have anything in te world and I can make that happen.")

Sayid: "I would tell you that the only thing I ever wanted died in my arms and I'll never see IT again."
(NOTE - Sayid does not say "HER" but "IT". Is the "it" supposed to mean happiness and/or true love?)

Flocke: "WHAT IF you could?"
(Again, the use of WHAT IF instead of "You can.")

I found these semantics extremely interesting. Flocke really isn't making promises just describing a hypothetical possibility. And Sayid might not have been referring to one particular person (Nadia or Shannon) but the experience of true love, joy and happiness/peace that he is loved despite the bad things he has done in his life.

Lost is like a hot dog. We love them. We boil them, grill them, deep fry them, cover them in cornmeal and deep fry them and just love them. Then we get all antsy about them. "Tell me what's in them, I want to know the answer". Then you find out it was all just hooves and skin and you get disappointed but you still ear hot dogs again.

Same thing. Enjoy lost, watch it how you want. You may not enjoy the answers but that was never the point of this show because of naming it LOST it would have been called FOUND!

At the risk of beating a dead horse: There has to be a reason for TPTB dropping that fake 815 in the miles in the opposite direction of its departure point. I suppose it could be a production error…the court room scenes with Kate were a terrible mess! But this is such a tremendous incongruity that it has to have been intentional.
What explanation can there be for whoever planted that wreck to plant it in the Sundra Trench? Some people suggest it was to draw attention away from the actual place the plane went down. But that is unreasonable, because rather than draw attention away from the ill fated 815, I think finding it 4000 miles in the opposite direction would have caused an intense scrutiny of the entire flight. I’d think a tremendous curiosity would have the press asking questions of the 6 survivors: Didn’t you notice the sun was on the wrong side of the plane? Didn’t you wonder why you flew over land for so long before you were over the sea? I mean, you fly to Hawaii from San Francisco airport, after an hour in the air, you’d be concerned that you were still flying over land…wtf, did I get on the wrong plane?
What eats at me is that no one in the show questions the location of the survivors or plane. When the explanation for their appearance was being discussed, none of the survivors said, “Sundra Trench? That’s the wrong ocean! Who the hell will believe that?” Even Lapidus wasn’t surprised the wreckage was in the wrong ocean; he was surprised the pilot didn’t have a wedding ring, but not surprised the wreckage was in the Sundra Trench.
It makes me wonder where the rest of the world thinks flight 815 was headed. And, as preposterous as it sounds, that makes me wonder if our passengers were herded onto an alternate plane, an off the grid flight, that they thought was taking them to Los Angeles. And the pilot had to die because he knew the plane was flying off the grid. Preposterous. Yes, but no more so than the bloody wreckage being in the wrong ocean and no one batting an eye about it.
So it’s either a blunder by TPTB of monumental proportion or it is a clue hiding in plain sight.

@252/mac and also Alex Angel and Lost2theworld, etc.

I agree! The Lost journey is like climbing a mountain...you can't be in such a rush to get to the top that you miss the views and vistas from the hike along the way. So, hang in there y'all - we've had some great S6 episodes and there are more to come. Including a fab finale....Team Damon and Carlton haven't steered us wrong yet (well...except for Nikki and Paulo).

That said... IF this whole thing turns the way of aliens, spaceships and "little green men" I will be on unhappy Lostie. They so would NOT do that to us. Would they?

Just a few more comments/questions (I promise) …

Most everyone seems satisfied with the “explanation” of the numbers. I’m sorry, but I am not. So … we have 360 surnames on a lighthouse compass dial, one for each degree. We have, apparently, the same surnames scrawled on the walls of a cave. Okay, so where the heck did these names come from? “From the wall of the cave” is unacceptably tautological, as is “from the lighthouse, duh!” I want to know how these 360 names came to be the names which now appear in the cave and lighthouse. I also want to know how each of these names became associated with “its” particular number. I seriously do not understand the “oh, now I get it!” comments with regard to the origin of the numbers … showing them written down, wherever, is no more of an “explanation” than seeing them on the Dharma hatch or Hurley’s lottery ticket! Now, going all “Comic Book Guy” I could further inquire, “Why just surnames? What happens if two candidates have the same last name? Why is the list not overflowing with Changs, Lees, and Kumars? Are there any Andersens from Iceland?” and so on. I know, just sit back and enjoy the ride … but it still makes no damned sense.

Next, why does MIB expound upon how Jacob had no idea what he had to go through, like it was such an ordeal, so patiently and painstakingly executed? Am I missing something? What exactly, did he do that was so difficult? The Locke/compass/Richard thing? I’m pressed to come up with much more. Seems to me, Jacob did all the heavy lifting here, apparently being the one orchestrating the arrival of all the different people to the island over the span of many years … after all, these people were the critical elements of MIB’s loophole … it seems safe to say that without Jacob’s “help” MIB could’ve done nothing. Seems more like MIB stumbled upon the loophole only after Jacob “brought” the 815ers to the island (it all sprang from his off-island touches, right?), and MIB found the unwitting foil in Locke.

Speaking of Jacob’s off-island touches … just how did Jacob get off the island to do so? I assume he has no further need to do so, being dead and all. I mean, there are still “officially” several candidates left, right? I infer from his Obi-Wan demise to MIB/Ben, that he has settled on a replacement, i.e. “the one” true candidate? If not, then allowing himself to be killed before having completed that mission seems a bit premature.

Back to Smokey … how is it reconciled that Smokey/MIB was “trapped” until the death of Jacob? Once again, feel like I’m missing something. We see Smokey regularly since S1, and *clearly* not trapped in the cabin before it is found, given “the monster” featured prominently in the series pilot. We also see Dharma using the sonic fence to keep Smokey out (and how does that work again?) since … when exactly? Not to mention the demise of Montand et al … Smokey seems to have been far from “trapped” before Jacob’s death. Unless you count the time Ben invoked Smokey from underground by draining the pool, but that came across more as “releasing the dogs” then freeing a dangerous, trapped entity. Is it asking too much for any of this to make some kind of sense?

Other things … Did Jacob or MIB (or neither) bring Cooper to the island for Locke (Sawyer) to kill? Or was that all just Ben’s doing? Ben said it was “the magic box” … huh? Also, what was the point of that? Why was Richard so passive about it all? Is this a story thread TPTB hope we have forgotten about? Maybe related, maybe not … What was in the box Ben had hidden in the vent? I do not recall if that was ever revealed, was it, or just another dead-end thread? Is Paik/Widmore another dead-end? Eloise/Brother Campbell? Des/Penny? Ji Yeon/Aaron? Time travel?

I know … killjoy. Whatever. Still watching/enjoying the show, just with a lot more eye-rolling of late. I know it’s not all going to make sense … I mean, it can’t, and I have no problem with that. I also know many of the loose threads will never be addressed again, or tied up clumsily at best; there are/were simply too many things going on in this show to be cleanly resolved by the end of this season. I’d just like the big stuff to make sense in the end, and most importantly, have the end of this season, really be the end … please, no post-series movie like Twin Peaks and X-Files! That is all, so I’ll stop bitchin’ now. :) See, happy!

Regarding MIB and not knowing his name, there was a story line in the show Angel were they needed to "name" a deity (sp?). If they spoke her true name, then she would lose her power.

Regarding Jin and all that money, maybe he was planning on taking his wife away from her father and the mob life to start over???

@264. ealgumby asked "why does MIB expound upon how Jacob had no idea what he had to go through, like it was such an ordeal, so patiently and painstakingly executed? Am I missing something? What exactly, did he do that was so difficult?"

I tried to figure that one out too. Click on my name and go to the February 5, 2010 post called "The Moves MIB had to Make to Win."

@264 ealgumby

we feel you, we really do and i really, really hope you get "some" or even "most" of your questions answered..... by the way, i really liked the first x-files movie and terry o'quinn was in it too. :)

namaste...

@266-welh
i clicked on your link out of curiosity & couldnt stop reading,
so many theories & interesting information,
my interest peaked while reading about these 3 names at the lighthouse which weren't crossed off,
im going to re-watch tuesdays episode tonight,
for me it has been the best episode of season 6 so far.

#222. Posted by: Cecil Rose
And did Josh sit in something when he had his boxers on in the house? I mean, tell me he sat in something. Even if he didn't sit in something, please tell me he sat in something. I can't wait to ask Josh about it.

I wondered the same thing! I was hoping he hadn't gotten so drunk that he had an "accident". It really made me laugh (and glad to know I wasn't the only one who noticed)!

ealgumby: I hear you!
For instance, re: Richard being so passive about TMFT affair...He wasn't passive. It was he who told Locke that Sawyer had a bone to pick with TMFT. I wonder if the Richard we saw telling Locke how to kill without getting his hands dirty was being occupied by the MIB. I thought back then that Ben's insistence that Locke kill TMFT was a test; Ben suspected Locke was a faux and he knew the MIB could not kill TMFT. Richard and Ben were on the same side, so if Richard helped Locke hoodwink Ben then Richard was either temporarily inhabited or Richard was a mole. And from Richard's reaction to Jacob's death, I think it is safe to say he was not a mole. On the other hand, if Richard was the MIB speaking to Locke, then Locke was Locke.

I am flummoxed.

@268/san - "my interest peaked while reading about these 3 names at the lighthouse which weren't crossed off"

They ARE crossed off; Lostpedia error. See for yourself ...

@271-ealgumby
thanks for letting me know,
lostpedia error is like a misprint in the bible to us LOST fans, unthinkable!

@270/undauntid - "re: Richard being so passive about TMFT affair...He wasn't passive."

I am flummoxed as well ... what I meant by Richard being "passive" was his apparent lack of intervention in the kidnapping and execution of Cooper. I mean, if this was not "Jacob's will" and just Ben's whim, don't you find it odd that he'd go along, and even facilitate Cooper's murder? Granted, Cooper was a bad man, but still ... what was "in it" for Richard? If it WAS Jacob's order to bring Cooper to the island ... why? Did Jacob tell Richard to ensure "Locke" succeeded in killing him?

So many things wrong with this whole scenario. First, once again Jacob not so benevolent, right? Snatching people and playing games to see who actually gets to strangle them to death ... wow, invite him to my next party! Second, do we *really* know that Richard even speaks to Jacob? Does he? I don't know ... he always seems to believe what Ben and/or Locke tell him "Jacob said" to do. He never seems to just go ask Jacob himself for confirmation. What gives there?

As you said ... I am flummoxed.

@271,272:
I rechecked and the names may be crossed off, but it is so faint as compared to the other cross offs surrounding them so to put another question in the pile:

were there any other candidates than the 815ers left on any list?

@274/welh - "I rechecked and the names may be crossed off, but it is so faint as compared to the other cross offs surrounding them so to put another question in the pile ... were there any other candidates than the 815ers left on any list?"

Did you look at SD or HD replay? The lighting is at a bad angle, but in HD it's clear (IMO) the names are crossed off.

Re other candidates ... we don't have the whole list of names, but from what we can see of the lighthouse compass/mirror mechanism, they all *seem* to be crossed off except for the six remaining names: Reyes, Ford, Jarrah, Shephard, Kwon, and Austen (from certain angles, you can see names with lines through them around the dial, even if you can't possibly make out the names themselves).

What I find interesting ... down to six names, but they're not the six "number names" ... was 4-Locke a screw-up in the first place? Did MIB cause this confusion with his Richard/Locke/compass mucking around? Does that imply "the numbers" have been wrong all along? Will the Valenzetti equation be solved with 8-15-16-23-42-51, instead of 4-8-15-16-23-42? Does that mean the "magic number" (sum of all "the numbers") is really 147, and not 108? Who's name is on the dial at 147? Did Dogen die because his 108-stitch baseball really wasn't special after all, and he should've looked for a football or whatever with 147 stitches instead? Am I now completely talking out of my a$$? ;)

ooops ... apparently I can't add either ... 155, not 147 ... not that it matters! ;)

@275/ealgumby:

Adding fuel to the fire, Jacob kept on saying that another person is coming to the island. I thought that this new person is his "wild card" candidate. However, if he is not a candidate, then I suspect he is more powerful than a mere replacement for Jacob.

#275. Posted by: ealgumby
Am I now completely talking out of my a$$? ;)
- - - -
Awww... I think it is warranted. The writers are writing completely out of theirs. Do the 'Numbers' matter at all anymore, now that Doctor 'Smash & Sulk' Shephard has laid waste to the mirrors?

I still think Hurley is having visions of MIB, impersonating Jacob. He and Jack ran a 'fools errand' for Smokey to "prevent" Jacob from regaining a foothold and/or nullifying the loophole.

@269 Amyr related:

>#222. Posted by: Cecil Rose

**************************************
***And did Josh sit in something when he had his boxers on in the house? I mean, tell me he sat in something. Even if he didn't sit in something, please tell me he sat in something. I can't wait to ask Josh about it.***
**************************************

>I wondered the same thing! I was hoping he hadn't gotten so drunk that he had an "accident". It really made me laugh (and glad to know I wasn't the only one who noticed)!

Just in case it wasn't clear, those were Jorge Garcia's words inside the asterisks, I just passed them along. And yes, I had wondered the exact same thing.

I prefer to believe there was a set-dresser standing there with a bottle of
"Original Groin Staino" wetting down Sawyer's boxers just before the call to 'action'.. but I suppose Jorge would have noticed that...

@278: DocH
I still think Hurley is having visions of MIB, impersonating Jacob. He and Jack ran a 'fools errand' for Smokey to "prevent" Jacob from regaining a foothold and/or nullifying the loophole.

I disagree. I'm not so sure it was a fool's errand at all. Aside from it being a plot device to have Jack and Hurley away from the Temple when MiB goes all Wrath and Fury and all. Jacob had said something about it being important to get Jack and Hurley away from the temple. That it wasn't safe. Why didn't he protect Kate or Sun that way.

Excluding Jack and Hurley, the other "numbers"
Locke is dead
Sayid seems to be lost to MiB
Sawyer last we saw was in MiB's cavernous summer home
Kwon last we saw was in Claire's house of horrors

Kate is 51 and seems to be a wild card at the moment.

Claire I would think is already lost to MiB. Littleton was crossed off.
Ben??? Linus was crossed out, though that could be referring to his father, Roger.

re: 108

Wikipedia lists a ton of references to the number 108 - including the baseball - and many in Eastern religions and traditions. Just FYI.

i think the person coming to the island will have the final say,
the importance of this character will be decisive,
jacob & his nemesis seem almost bound together by rules,
leverage appears to be recruiting as many people on the list as they can, which changes the ballance on the black-white scale.

#280. Posted by: Gumbo
- - - -
To my original posit... do the 'Numbers' matter at all anymore?

Hurley didn't start seeing "Jacob" until MIB had achieved his loophole and Jacob vanished into nothingness at T4TS. It started at the VW van when MIB (as Jacob) ?Fakcob? told Hurley to get to the Temple. That started MIB's endgame to finally beat the Templetons. I am not saying there aren't a few loose cannons and frayed wires to that endgame... just that duping Hurley, and counting on Jack's lack of restraint - those are just obvious traits to be exploited.

I think once Jacob vanished, he did not reappear until the moment FLocke had the vision of the bloody hands Kid in the jungle, and then later when FLocke chased incarnate non-bloody hands Kid through the forest and had a chat about "breaking the rules." Those are the only times we have seen the authentic Jacob.

@253 ealgumby:
"If true, then “Jacob’s touch” effectively ruined the lives of all the candidates, so they would be happy when presented with the “alt timeline”

From an extreme opposite view, how did Jacob impact Jack's life by getting him his candy bar, or Jin and Sun by wishing them happiness at their wedding, or Locke, by saving him from death when his father pushed him out of the window?

Jacob touched Hurley after his lottery win, after his being in a mental hospital, and after he had already been to the island and returned home.

Kate changed her own life when she discovered that her step-father who was abusing her mother and attempting to sexually abuse her was in fact her father. Did Jacob create that?

Linking a stolen lunch box to an abusive relationship by your parent is an extremely difficult case to make.

Sawyer's life was changed for him, because his mother had an affair with a con man, driving her husband into a homicidal rage. Again, Jacob's fault?

Yes, he handed the child a pen. Does not expressing your feelings on paper somehow take away the horror and guilt of watching your parent's murder-suicide? If he kept his feelings inside as his uncle advised, do we believe he would have grown up to be a well-adjusted adult?

Jacob to Hurley: "It's your choice Hugo, you don't have to do anything you don't want to."

Jacob, again to Hurley: "Jack is here because he has to do something. He can't be told what that is. He's got to find it himself".

Jacob, to Locke after the fall: "Don't worry, everything's gonna be alright. I'm sorry this happened to you."

Jacob, to Jin and Sun: "I'd like to offer you my blessing. Your love is a very special thing. Never take it for granted."

Jacob to Ben: "Benjamin... whatever he's told you, I want you to understand one thing. You have a choice."

Compare those lines to the quotes Gator Gal posted @260 from Smokey.

Pre-death, Jacob spends his days weaving a personal tapestry, which depicts a Sun God and his people, and contains the Greek phrases "may the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires" and "may the gods grant thee happiness", both quotes from Homer's Odyssey.

TPTB said that long-term Lost watchers could successfully predict where the show was going after watching "The Incident" and "LA-X". They either were out and out lying, or we're collectively making this harder than it has to be.

Broken, unhappy people who are "lost" enter a magical world that offers them redemption, and via sacrifice, a chance to go home again, happier, stronger and wiser.

This story has been retold in many different ways for thousands of years. The sideways scenes are Odysseus home from the wars- a well-deserved opportunity to relive their life. Seen in that light, Jacob didn't mess up their lives- by calling them to the island, he put them in the position to fix their lives, and their reward is the Sideways world.

Revisit the scene with Dogen and Sayid- Dogen destroyed his life by critically injuring his son in a drunken driving accident. He must make amends- a sacrifice that requires him to go to the island.

Even though he is killed there, his reward in the Sideways world is his heart's desire- a relationship with his healthy son.

And if I'm wrong and have completely misinterpreted the show, I will be first in line the morning after the finale to write "I was wrong".

Got it...Jacob and MIB are the Miser Brothers and the person coming to the island who is more powerful is Mother Nature.

@274/welh - re the names

Okay, too damned lazy to cut, paste, post pics on-line right now, but just finished a lengthy examination of the lighthouse names (with assistance & concurrence from Alaïs_Longthought), and concluded:

(1) The three names mentioned on Lostpedia as not crossed off:

56 Haasra
57 Grimwault
60 Kysea

ARE *definitely* crossed off! No question, it is VERY clear in HD.

(2) It's also fairly clear the names listed above are wrong:

95% certain 56 = Hansen
90% certain 60 = Kyser
Much less certain as to what 57 is, but 99% certain it's not Grimwault!

(3) There are multiple authors of the names ... not suggesting within the plot, just production staff. At any rate, many/most of the names are written by someone with lots of upper/lower case mixing: invariably, "n" "e" "i" "d" "t" within the word will be lower case, and "R" "S" "A" within the word will be in caps (dude, at least be consistent with your vowels, I mean come ON! ;) ). Knowledge of these "rules" will help in "translation" of 56 & 60. 57 is just really hard to see clearly, but it IS clearly crossed out anyway.

(4) Someone else wrote in the "special" names (i.e., the "numbers" gang) ... just guessing here, but I'd suggest those names were written in first by someone "important" on the production staff, and then the interns/peons were let loose to write in the other names willy-nilly ... I'll bet a number of production staff names pop up around that wheel!

(5) Unexpectedly, AL & I discovered something potentially interesting (although I would not bet on it! ;p ) ...

Anyway, the name at "360" does NOT appear to be crossed off (80% certain), and is written in the same block letter style as SHEPHARD & KWON, but is just not legible. This is the ONLY other name on the wheel which is not crossed off (95% certain ... there's one really good low angle view of the entire wheel where you can see just about all the cross-offs).

Two things we note ... use of 360 instead of 0, probably means nothing. Then again, 0 = 360 ... the start of a new cycle flows from the end of the previous one ... hence, alpha = omega, yadda yadda yadda? Maybe this actually is a clue? Hmm ...

Could this mysterious unnamed person be the one Jacob is expecting to arrive? It looks like it might be two words, 3-4 letters each ... or else one word in the 6-8 letter range. WIDMORE? OMG IDK? Both are still in the running right now ...

Of course, maybe it means absolutely nothing! :)

I agree with others that the cave is MIB's space, and those names and numbers are what he copied from Jacob. If that is so, then I wonder if names are being crossed off because MIB believes he has neutralized their threat to his agenda. Jacob brings them to the island for whatever reason he has and MIB picks them off one at a time.

The rules say MIB cannot kill any of Jacob's candidates, but he can corrupt and manipulate them to kill each other.

@ealgumby, et al
tv shows are a fickle bitch

#287. Posted by: undauntid
...MIB cannot kill any of Jacob's candidates, but he can corrupt and manipulate them to kill each other.
- - - -
That might explain why Smokey looks many of the humans in the face before he kills them, or lets them go. If you are on the numbered list - you get a hall pass. If you have no associated number, Smokey gets to fling you around like a terrier on a chipmunk.

Regarding the power of names of things and people: I think this can be traced back at least as far as Jewish mythology. For example, the name of god was not to be spoken or erased if written down. And creation itself starts with a spoken word and naming of things by Adam. It also found its way into later mythologies, like the christian one, that were continued from the Jewish stories. In more modern times very strong traces can be found for example in the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, which I suspect to be because of his strong catholicism combined with his profession (philologist).

@264, ealgumby: I completely agree with the main points of your post. Like I said before, I would hate to see all intricate plots and twists of the previous years just being forgotten and the show end in some kind of good vs evil show down between two teams. A lot of the points you bring up are very good points.

I'm not sure though anyone considers the recent appearances of the numbers to be an "explanation" though. I certainly don't. I not once realized that it was supposed to be an explanation. If anything, it made the numbers more mysterious. Why does the same set of numbers appear on a winning lottery ticket, the Dharma hatch, the candidate list and basically every visible number appearing in the show. Just coincidence?

Re "what MIB had to go through". I don't remember the exact context in which he said this, but couldn't he have been talking about him being trapped and how that was an ordeal?

Re "how did Jacob get of the Island": Jacob appears to be an ageless being who can appear in Hurley's mind to give instructions and use a magic lighthouse to spy on people. Surely getting of the Island is the least mysterious of his abilities.

Re "was MIB trapped": the vibe I got was that MIB was trapped on the Island. He could still move around the Island (but not hurt the Others who were under Jacob's protection), but he could not move off-Island. Which is why I'm still not convinced that the appearances of Christian Shephard were (always) MIB. After all, Jack saw him in the hospital. Some people have even suggested that Jacob can also manifest as a smoke monster. After all, Ben seemed to be able to summon Smokey. Why would MIB do the Other's dirty jobs?

Re: "bringing Cooper to the Island": Lostpedia http://tinyurl.com/yjffk3k
has a transcript of an interview with Darlton from "Access: Granted", some season 3 Blue-ray extras in which they state that the Others staged a car accident to bring Cooper to the Island. It doesn't explain why they did it and it would have been nice to have had this confirmed on the show in some way (I think it was mentioned on the show, but kind of left out in the open whether it was true or not), but at least it gives some idea of how they did it.

I'm think Paik/Widmore might play into the final episodes, if not in the Island timeline, then at least in ALT world. Brother Campbell seems too much of a one-off character to spend time on, but I would definitely like to find out a bit more about where Eloise fits in all this. Is she allied with Ben or Charles? Or did she play both of them to further her own agenda? Ji Yeon and Aaron (and as far as I'm concerned Walt as well) I hope will still have a role to play. With Claire resurfacing I'd say Aaron is a safe bet to see in future episodes and surely Ji Yeon will come up during the inevitable Sun-Jin reunion, whether it's a happy one or not. And we still have a dangling fertility problem on the Island. So I say, we can expect more kids in the final stretch. And time travel? I think that is just one of those weird unexplained properties of the Island which allowed us (story telling wise) to explore the past of the Island, but my guess is that we're done time traveling, with perhaps one final exception to come depending on how they are going to integrate ALT world into the main story.

Mizzed: I agree with you; why is it thought that Jacob's touch ruined lives? He was utterly kind to each person he had contact with. And he offered that kindness at a pivotal moment in each of their lives.

@284/Mizzed - "From an extreme opposite view ..."

Let me repeat/paraphrase ... in Mac's interview, he opined the alt timeline might represent "What would have happened to the castaways if Jacob hadn't intervened?”

That's the hypothesis. Now take that as a given, and compare the characters' situations in the alt timeline to their circumstances on-island. This is the most reasonable and logically consistent way to compare the scenarios, IMO.

Hey, I'm a systems engineer, and it's in my nature to identify and decompose problems into their constituent elements, then reconstruct in a logical fashion. As component level verification tells you nothing about overall system integrity, likewise circumstantial quotes do not logically support your position ... here's a news flash, deceptive people talk BS and lie. Jacob's "supportive" platitudes mean nothing, unless he's running for office ... then I'm sure that line of crap is very effective. Personally, I'm not buying it. Nor do I think you've established anything other than political spin to support your "evidence" that Jacob's touch has improved their lives.

You state "Broken, unhappy people who are 'lost' enter a magical world that offers them redemption, and via sacrifice, a chance to go home again, happier, stronger and wiser."

Okay, why are they broken unhappy people? In the alt timeline that does not appear to be the case, at least for most of the protagonists. Maybe, just maybe, the hypothesis is correct ... they are broken unhappy people because Jacob made them that way with his touch!

I know we've had our disagreements, so perhaps you'd be more receptive to welh's take ... click the link on his name to see what he has to say about in his "Touched By An Angel Devil" posting. Note I do not think he's logically supported his position any better than you, but it just goes to show two people can look at the same "facts" and use them to "prove" completely disparate positions.

I'm sure I'm coming across as pissy, but not trying to, really ...

I'm not saying I have proof that "the hypothesis" is correct, just that given the premise, it logically follows that Jacob is a douche, or worse. Perhaps the premise is false, but given the premise, my "possible" conclusion is logically valid. One important point you fail to recognize in considering the Jacob-as-douche hypothesis, is that earlier effects of his interaction may have set the stage for what happens later, even if he hasn't "touched" people directly until much later. That's why discrete situational analysis is pointless (e.g. "Jacob touched Hurley after his lottery win ...") ... you need to consider the whole system. In the alt timeline, taken as a whole, the main characters are better off, that's what matters.

Your arguments neither disprove the validity of that logical system-level analysis, nor establish the factual/logical superiority of your position. You too have a hypothesis, but I fail to see how you have demonstrated any logical support for it. Pleasant quotes prove nothing ... didn't Keamy express concern over Sayid's brother being hospitalized? So why doesn't that count? Because he's a lying rat bastard, that's why! But that's obvious,right? I would suggest there's no logical proof Jacob is any less a rat bastard ... and sneakily ambiguous ones are the most dangerous, right? Can we agree to that? Can we agree it's possible that Jacob's "I feel your pain" douche-quotes might actually be the words of a douche,rather than some who truly cares? Is that *possible*?

Hey, I'm also not saying you're wrong ... maybe the whole series will come down to a childishly simple black/white conclusion, but you surely have not proved it. You also have apparently extremely misunderstood the basis behind the 'alt timeline represents the better world without Jacob's influence' theory, and extremely failed to disprove it.

You say you're willing to admit you're wrong ... well so am I. It's a freakin' hypothesis, a guess ... of course it might be wrong! The whole point is to provide alternate points of view from which to consider what we've seen, and hopefully derive something illuminating from that experience. The point is NOT to definitively explain things ... that's truly a "Lost" cause. And I guess that's where I really seem to see things differently, and have a difficult time appreciating your position, which at least has the appearance of being very adamant regarding what is true/false.

Time will tell. Until then, we will apparently continue to spar over points of logic, and the meaning of the shadows on the wall. I hope you don't mind ...

Why does their brokeness or wholeness have to enter into the equation at all? I think that is a red herring. They had lives prior to their encounters with Jacob, they were who they were. They made choices before they encountered him and they made choices after they encountered him. I think the point of the alt time line is to show us that no matter what their lives were like, at least some of them were going to meet and do whatever the hell "it" is that Jacob or the island or God or god needs for them to do.

@292 ealgumby:

I don't mind your opposing view at all, I welcome it. This has never been a personal debate, at least not on my side. I have referred to your "stubs" theory of a couple years back many times- I think it was one of the most insightful thoughts ever posted here.

I have gravitated towards a simpler is better perspective, based primarily on Lost being a network television show that has to appeal and make sense to millions of people- similar to your earlier post on breaking down the lighthouse mirror scene.

I don't believe D&C is anywhere as personally invested in the mythology and magic of Lost as we are here, which leads to frustration when many things are left unexplained, or don't quite seem to fit.

They can't/won't have a character face the camera and deliver a long exposition on the meaning of Lost. The only clues we will ever have is what the writers determine to show us visually, and to listen to the dialogue they have written for each character.

You're correct that we have no frame of reference to determine when/if someone is truthful and deceitful. The reality is that none of us have logic on our sides in these discussions, because TPTB can change the frame of reference at any time- they are not required to play by any rules other than their own.

A big part of my position is Jacob's tapestry- a tremendous amount of production time went into creating it- why? As far as we know, the tapestry wasn't created for any other character, or to drive any particular plot exposition.

So why detail this elaborate weaving describing the gifts of the Sun God, and quoting The Odyssey?

I don't claim that my theory of Jacob and Smokey as opposing life-death forces against a backdrop of lost characters finding redemption via sacrifice is "right", only that it is consistent with everything we've been shown in the series, and has been repeatedly been reinforced by D&C's external comments, once you cut through their humor and obtuseness.

In the end whether I'm right or you're right or neither one of us is right, it will still have been a hell of a 6 year ride, and I'm glad I invested the time to be part of it.

I've mentioned this before and haven't read all posts after that, but I'll say it again. There's a shape/figure to be seen in Smokey when he passes over the pit with Kate and Claire in it. I'm just not able to freezeframe it properly.
In fact, right after the figure speeds by, Kate's facial expression changes, like she saw it as well.

@233. shikotee: Thanks for pointing out what Lennon said at the jacuzzi. Did you happen to also notice Jack at the hospital? ;)

Long time no see...

I am quite impressed by this season so far, including the last season.

Nevertheless, I was a little bit disappointed by last season's finale when Jacob was introduced as a completely new character which we hadn't seen before.

By looking at the big picture, I can't get rid of the feeling that Desmond is the wildcard in this game:
- he was involved in the most important episodes of the show
- "See you in another life, brotha" has a completely new meaning now
- Desmond was "saving the world" by pushing the button (or maybe by NOT pushing the botton in order to change the timeline; maybe by simply taking his medicine and being/surviving on the "island" for a later purpose)
- Mrs. Hawking once even told him that he's special ("not affected by the rules" or something similar)
- Desmond showed powerful abilities in the past seasons (seeing the future; crossing over to an alternate timeline in "The Constant")
- he reached the island by boat before; maybe he will do it again

I think it's clear that the Desmond (and also Jack) connection has always been there and it's highly probable that he will be very important in the upcoming episodes.

One more thing...

I'm quite sure that LOST is actually a game, and we already saw a couple of "reboots" during the past seasons -- that's why characters don't necessarily die during huge explosions.

The game analogy was even referenced by Locke during the first season when he explained a game with black and white pieces to Walt.

I'm glad that I was wrong with my alien speculations -- unless some egyptian gods, which are actually aliens, are playing or administrating this game ;)

I'm confident that the LOST series will wrap things up in a much better way than The Matrix trilogy. This may be the first TV series which beats even Hollywood trilogies by lengths.

#284. Posted by: Mizzed at March 5...And if I'm wrong and have completely misinterpreted the show, I will be first in line the morning after the finale to write "I was wrong".

I have a feeling that the morning after "I was wrong" might just replace MIF as the first comment regardless of who among us is first!

#284. Posted by: Mizzed at March 5...And if I'm wrong and have completely misinterpreted the show, I will be first in line the morning after the finale to write "I was wrong".

I have a feeling that the morning after "I was wrong" might just replace MIF as the first comment regardless of who among us is first!

sorry for the double post...guess my computer felt it bore repeating ;)

@ ealgumby, mizzed, myself:

TPTB have encouraged us to go find the hidden messages because they have put them into the show instead of direct answers. The Lighthouse, which seems to be clue-worthy in trying to figure out the person Jacob said is coming to the island, is a dead end. Speaking of the most detailed clue of all, remember the Blast Door? It contained Latin phrases for gosh sakes. That could time to create. Yet, as the show ends, it goes into the prop junk heap, significance unexplained - - -

Hmmm -- there's a fine line between game, simulation and experiment. Lost may be a little of all these ingredients. Important game/simulation/experiment parameters are the "players" 4,8,15,16,23,42. There are also references to constants and variables in the title of major episodes.

My nose keeps bleeding a lot :)

Wehl:"TPTB have encouraged us to go find the hidden messages because they have put them into the show instead of direct answers." Ok....these things make me wonder:

Do the 360 people whose names are on the light house wheel all share a common ancestor? A dynastic line of sorts.

Is the FDW in sync with the lighthouse wheel? That is, if it stopped being turned at 43 you'd end up in the place the mirror shows at #43?

Walt is special, too special. Didn't The Others find his specialness disconcerting? How would Walt have upset the applecart if he had remained...aside from the fact that he would have aged very rapidly.

What about the brainwashing of the kid who was Alex's boyfriend? Wasn't Jacob's name mentioned in that process? If so, that puts Jacob in a different light.

Vincent.

The 815 wreckage & survivors being found in the wrong freaking ocean and no one give's a rat's ass.

Desmond.

black and white.

Bernard and Rose and Vincent living a lovely quiet life while everyone else is engulfed in chaos and drama.

my nose is bleeding.

Regarding Good vs Evil, Damon and Carlton say:
tinyurl.com/ya2mprz

another thing...

Flocke, whom we assume to be the MIB, said to the kid in the jungle, "Don't tell me what I can't do." How does that work? Locke is dead. MIB uses the form of Locke. But MIB shouts a Locke-ism.

@305 Clementine:

Thanks for the links.

*****
Note: if you don't want to be influenced by anything D&C have to say, please don't read further in this posting.
*****

The last two podcasts have reaffirmed that this is definitely a good vs. evil dynamic (although continuing to leave who is good and who is evil up for discussion), and that the sideways scenes are absolutely not part of an alternative or what if? timeline, but exist in the same timeline as the previous 5 seasons.

Those two points alone go a long way towards altering much of our blog conversation here.

To ealgumby's earlier postings re: the numbers, they again say that they want elements of Lost to remain a mystery and open to interpretation.

Listening to their discussion, my opinion is that though they have revealed that the numbers are people or candidates, they are unlikely to reveal the process of how the candidates were originally selected or numbered, or how Valenzetti and/or Dharma was able to winnow down the 360 numbers into the six final ones which become "The Numbers", or even the exact process used by Jacob to pull the candidates to the island.

@306: The Locke-ism

Maybe now that MIB is locked in Locke form, or maybe ever since he took over Locke, he is taking over mannerisms, character traits and such. After all, he knows every memory and thought that Locke had. Maybe he doesn't just mimic Locke, in some ways he becomes him. In his earlier interactions with Ben, he truely seemed to experience emotions about Ben's betrayal. His weakness with the boy, his legs failing on him, his frustration about limitations, rules.

@296. Posted by: FenwayBen

sigh.....

I had a feeling I was walking into something like this!

But yeah - for whatever reason, I forgot that Lennon actually spelled it out, and somehow thought we deduced that the loss of the leader would make the ash circles moot. Not sure why this was the case for me.

Memory - she be fickle! ;)

Moving on - Did anyone catch the Men's gold hockey game? ;)

I think I need to read up on the previous discussions from a few seasons ago on the eternal recurrence!

SCAAAAAAAAAAAAAARF!!!!

thank you for the link Clementine.

So that settles that...definitely Good vs Evil. Now the task is to determine who is on which side.

Jacob vs MIB

Do the rules give us a hint? The rules dictate:
Widmore and Ben cannot kill each other. MIB can't kill Jacob. But Ben can.
Locke can't kill TMFT but Sawyer can.
Keamy can't kill Alex...but he did kill her. So was that in violation of the rules? Or did Ben think the rules applied but they didn't?
Are people on the same side prevented from killing each other? If Sawyer can kill TMFT but Locke can't, does that indicate that Locke & TMFT are on the same side? How would that apply to Keamy killing Alex? How was Ben wrong? Was it Keamy or Alex who changed sides? Was Keamy actually the MIB?

@65 Stock -- very interesting observation of Jacob trapped in the cabin (Help me) Why do we think tat was Jacob talking to Locke? Only Ben's word and Ben is not too trustworthy on the truth front. In fact, Ben couldn't hear him at all. If instead, it was the MIB that Locke heard, it was a foreshadowing of MIB taking Locke as HIS candidate.

Nice parallelism, Sayid killing guys in both universes.

Let us suppose Sayid is indeed infected in the same way all of Rousseau's team were infected, going about killing uninfected people. How do people become infected? Must they die first? Are they infected by a temple jacuzzi baptism? How did little Ben get healed? Richard said he would never be the same? Was Ben healed and then infected in the temple jacuzzi? If infected, are you now a member of the FoMIB, the followers of the Man in Black? You are not imortal when infected--Rousseau managed to kill off all the infected people. Were some, many, all of the others infected? Did only infected people follow FLocke?

I thought for a moment that infection was like zombieism, but if that were the case an infected person would attempt to infect a healthy person, but that would not explain why an infected Frenchman attempted to shoot Rousseau before Rousseau shot him. It seems that once infected, your only mission is to kill as many people as possible. Dogen said that that was the aim of the MIB, to kill everything. MIB more or less said that himself in his tete a tete on the beach with Jacob.

I am not giving up on Jacob in spite of a tendency of many to dump on him by comparing him to hygiene products. He has an indomitable faith in people whom he keeps trying to attract to the island. MIB thinks we're all worthless. Jacob seeks candidates (disciples) who can hold off the MIB and he must wrench these people from their comfortable lives. Many are tested, few meet the test. MIB/FLocke, like Satan, can be seductive and beguiling. Eat this yummy apple, little darlin', and you will be as wise as God and understand everything. Or the story of Satan testing Jesus in the wilderness. This is an epic story with pretensions to dealing with lofty themes. So the story must feature archetypes of good and evil and good must sometimes appear to be harsh and evil alluring.

I'm only at 72 when I write this and maybe these ideas will be mentioned later. Sorry if I am repeating someone.

#264. Posted by: ealgumby at March 5, 2010 2:25 PM
What was in the box Ben had hidden in the vent? I do not recall if that was ever revealed, was it, or just another dead-end thread?

I do beleive that we were suppose to assume it was the gun Ben used to shoot Desmond

Hey Mac! You got linked in New York Magazine... did you know? Er, can they "summarize" your stuff without telling you? Anyway, hope it brings more attention to your great writing!

tinyurl.com/y8tcxvz

i believe sayid's change of behaviour was mirrored in this episode,
on island, calm placid man,
side flash also calm peaceful,
then a huge change later in both scenarios,
it strikes me as odd that claire (who is one of NNYG (no name yet guy) disciple's yet has no idea what the plan is,
also loved the spooky LOST rendition of catch a falling star,
if any of you have young children please choose another version of this song to play.

It's catchup time, hope my semi-drunken rambling is entertaining.

=====First some shout-outs from last week=====

To Alais-Longthought for a great post on WHDH and freewill.

Amen to bouds on the idea that Jughead's nuke merging with electromagnetic energy flashed them in time, messed with WHH and created a Jacob-free alt timeline.

=====Random Unlikely Theories/Predictions=====

Jack will get shot in the gut sometime this season, but not having an appendix will somehow save him.

Adam and Eve are Zack and Emma (apologies if theorized previously). There must be some reason they keep showing up.

Nobody is coming to the island. Jacob was just scooby-douching Hurley and Jack to help get Jack on his hero path.

Claire saying "he's coming and they can't stop him" was referring to Aaron and not Flocke.

=====Random Observations/Questions=====

Lighthouse episode last week was Episode #108 (technically 108th produced hour, whatever that means)

Anyone notice there was almost another Kate grobing by an Other this week?

Way late, but all this talk about hockey reminded me that the Olympic Bronze medalist Joannie Rochette said she learned English by watching Scooby Doo episodes. Now that's the stuff!

Interesting that this version of Locke wants to leave the island whereas Good Locke (Glock?) is the one who wanted to stay.

Was Jacob pouring something into the j'accuzzi last week? If so, what?

Did anyone catch the hieroglyphs on the steps coming out of the pool this week?

Does Keamy holding Jin in the freezer indicate that Widmore (Keamy) and Paik (Jin) are not on the same side in the Alt timeline even though we think they were business partners of some sort previously?

Mmmmm, all these thoughts are making me hungry and thirsty.

=====Food and Drink=====

@261 ALEX ANGEL
Great hot dog post...a real wiener!

They would go great with Red Neck Man's beer pong table to determine good and evil.

What up with Keamy and the eggs?

Did Jin find the chicken that crossed the road in that fridge/freezer?

Anyone have some extra tonic?? I'm gonna need a bigger drink (IGNABD)

Been Googling around to figure out if Lost matches the characteristics to be considered “epic”:
-Invocation to a muse? I dunno. Can we count Vincent?
-Story begins smack in the middle of the action? Okay, like the scrambling survivors of a plane crash.
-The use of FLASHBACKS to the pertinent past? Check!
-Starts with the statement of the theme? FATE as written on Charlie’s tapped fingers? Games?
-Setting is vast, covering many nations, the world or the universe? Check!
- Includes the use of epitheths ? If that means glorified nicknames and titles with implied meanings Check!
- Divine intervention in human affairs? That’s our Jacob! – Check!
-Includes long lists? Jacob again -Check!
-Heros embody the values of civilization? Yeah, cases could be made for this so, check!
ALSO FOUND THESE: “Elements of the Epic Hero Cycle”
-Hero possesses supernatural abilities or qualities. i.e. survives an epic fall & walks while paralyzed.
-The hero is charged with a quest.
-The hero is tested, often to prove the worthiness of himself and his quest.
-There is the presence of numerous mythical beings, magical and helpful animals, and human helpers and companions.
-The hero’s travels take him to a supernatural world, often one that normal human beings are barred form entering. SMOKIN!
-The cycle must reach a low point where the hero nearly gives up his quest or appears defeated. (Or starts to hang himself?)
-A resurrection ( Sayid? John Locke?)
-Restitution given as compensation for completion of the quest. This often takes the form of the hero regaining his rightful place in history. (Season 6 could play out this way)

points to whoever made the connection with the number of stitches on a baseball....108

@305/Clementine, et al – re the podcast

I love fortune cookies. I know, completely irrational. It’s not like they actually taste good, and I know the fortunes are completely meaningless, randomly stamped out by the millions. Nevertheless, I always look forward to that little slip of paper inside. Usually they’re ambiguously universal and upbeat, rather like a horoscope, and get thrown away immediately. A few years ago though, I got one that I still remember, because as trite as the saying contained within that doughy prison might be, it’s also very true. It simply read, “the best prophet of the future is the past.”

Now, does anyone remember what Damon had to say back in season one about the science fiction of the show? “I don't think we've shown anything on the show yet ... that has no rational explanation in the real world that we all function within. We certainly hint at psychic phenomena, happenstance and ... things being in a place where they probably shouldn't be. But nothing is flat-out impossible. There are no spaceships. There isn't any time travel.”

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

From the latest podcast, Carlton gloats “We sort of postulated two scenarios, and I think what the audience wasn’t expecting was, ‘you know what, we’re gonna give you both of those.’”

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

Again from the podcast, Damon states “It’s good versus evil, very, very simply put. And we have to sort of decide, you know, um, is Jacob the good guy, and this mysterious man in black who we saw in last year’s finale the bad guy, or have we done a switcheroo? Because both of them are gonna, are gonna make their case.”

Carlton adds “At the end of the series, as in all good mythology, you know, it comes down to good versus evil, and we hope that the audience is going to enjoy our version of that. And our version of that includes sorting out, who exactly’s on the side of good, and who’s on the side of evil.”

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

So, only someone as completely mule-stubborn as myself could possibly be so thick-headed as to assume there might be a bit of quibbling here, right? I mean, they’ve been right as rain so far … bwa ha!

As obvious as many seem to think it is that D&C should be trusted with every word, I find much of their past commentary to be just as clearly full of deception and ambiguity. Yes, we do know they’re big fans of Star Wars and the hero’s journey template of epic storytelling; card-carrying members of the Joe Campbell Fan Club for all I know. That still does not mean they cannot, and have not already, tried to put their own unique spin on the show. What makes everyone so damned certain they won’t add another wrinkle now?

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

Personally, I find Carlton’s explanation of the “coexisting realities,” as Matthew Fox put it, to be just the kind of “you guys think there’s only A or B, well we’re going to give you C” rationale I expect to hear as justification for these latest comments regarding good versus evil.

Call me stubborn, call me stupid, call me whatever (probably heard much worse anyway! ;) ) … I just don’t buy the “Jacob good, MIB bad” theory.

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

I think all of you who believe this, are getting your chains yanked by D&C. That is my opinion. I have zero proof, and there’s lots of circumstantial evidence against my position, but there it is. Call it intuition, gut call, Spidey Sense, whatever … I can just feel the long con here and I’m not biting.

For the record, here’s how I’d suggest they can state what they have, and still not be accused of lying later (not that it seems to have mattered with regard to the time travel denial!).

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

Okay, here’s my theory … the good and evil does not *have* to mean Jacob and MIB, it can refer to the people within each camp instead. For example, I immediately think of the movie “Platoon.” At the “obvious” level, you have two sides in conflict, the U.S. Army and the NVA/VC. However, the movie was really about the inner conflict within the U.S. forces, to wit the stoners versus the drinkers, whites versus blacks, officers versus enlisted. There was a lot of moral ambiguity in that movie, which was certainly the point. I’m not even suggesting Lost has to rely on that level of grey in the story … it can be very clear who is good and evil, within each “side” of the island conflict, without spelling out explicitly that it’s all about Jacob being good and MIB being evil.

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

IMO, there have been too many demonstrations already of Jacob and/or his supporters being less than great people for me to ever accept him as the so-called epitome of good. Not saying I think MIB is “the good one” either, as that sure doesn’t seem to be the case.

What I am saying, is the “good/evil” dichotomy can still exist in the plot, the monomyth device can still be used, without either Jacob or MIB having to be purely good or evil. They *both* seem to act with the capriciousness of Olympian gods to me.

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

What we’ve seen in the past from D&C in terms of their commentary, amounts to less than reliable information. They love to play the cat and mouse, back and forth, dork banter game in their interviews. Therefore, even when they seem to explicitly say something, think again.

Jacob and his followers have done not so very good things to people on the show. MIB and his followers/pawns have certainly done not so very good things to people on the show.

“So that settles that” is a laughably premature comment to be presenting in such an absolute fashion. D&C can still do what they did with the alt timeline resolution. That is, they can give us both A and B in the form of C … those who assume the answer MUST be constrained to what you think the only possibilities are, have already been proven wrong in that respect. How can you be so damned sure it won’t happen again?

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

Granted, good versus evil may be the core concept behind the remaining episodes, but *we* have no idea how that will be revealed.

Beating a dead horse? Hitting over the head with a sledgehammer? If that’s what it takes to register that no one outside of the writing staff for the show knows absolutely how it’s going to end.

* The best prophet of the future is the past. *

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me …

Does anybody know if the Lost authors officially ruled out some kind of "it's all in software" theory? (a game or an experiment or a simulation -- maybe a simulation for game theory research?)

The Characters in Lost may be software programs: in the following, I will call them software agents. Each agent resembles a human personality with a specific background (man of science, man of faith, maybe born to run, ...). It acts according to this predefined personality traits. Additionally, agents are able to acquire new strategies in the course of the game/simulation/experiment since they are able to learn from past experiences. For example, we saw that the Sawyer agent's strategy can play out very differently given different circumstances.

MIB and Jacob are able to influence ("infect") agents according to predefined rules (similar to viral programs). These rules are somehow connected to an agents beliefs regarding science and faith. I think it's possible for an agent to change these beliefs, i.e., Locke could be infected by MIB when he lost his faith.

In case MIB isn't able to infect an agent according to the rules, it may still be able to eliminate/kill it -- maybe it simply eliminated/killed the Mr. Ecko agent because it had no more chance of infecting it (Mr. Ecko did become a priest -- a man of faith).

The Desmond agent has been immunized from infection during his time in the hatch, so he's not affected by MIBs and Jacobs "rules". He/it is truly a wildcard.

I think the alternate timeline is simply an alternate simulation run which played out differently. Desmond may be able to switch between these simulation runs.

I think the incident and the bomb explosion were some kind of simulation crash which resulted in changed parameters (different time and place...).

I suppose an important question of the upcoming episodes may be if Jacob will be able to turn Jack (the prototype of a man of science) into a man/agent of faith.

Maybe the fact that a lot of philosopher names, scientist's names and also religious names are used throughout Lost supports my 'game theory simulation' explanation. The names are a hint for the agent's strategy and background.

Each agent has a specific ID in the simulation which is represented as a number. The main characters have the agent IDs 4,8,15,16,23,42.

My theory could also explain a lot of strange events which have occurred on Lost, i.e., Walt's backward talking at some point -- maybe Walt was somehow hacking the simulation environment which is his special ability. I see no explanation via egyptian mythology for such events.

Obviously, the hatch was a control interface to the simulation environment -- regularly entering the agent IDs was an internal requirement of the simulation software (maybe a consistency check). The Desmond agent was immunized and isolated in order to protect it from MIB's and Jacob's influence (infection). At least initially, Desmond was not part of the experiment.

I think the Mrs. Hawking agent is one of the designers of the simulation. She clearly has external knowledge. She helped the Oceanic Six to get back to the island in order to continue the experiment -- an experiment gone awry. Mac has said this for a long time.

The speculations that Lost is some kind of social experiment were there for a long time -- this was the obvious part of the puzzle.

I just couldn't connect these hints in order to see that everything on Lost has to be a computer simulation: a social experiment conducted via simulation -- similar (but much simpler) models have been used in real game theory research before. These models always have an evolutionary aspect -- competition and selection. I'm quite sure the characters on Lost represent the software agents in this kind of simulation.

Congratulations to the Lost writers for confusing me for 109 episodes -- I wish I would have seen it in 108 ;)

For the moment, my nose has stopped bleeding.

Quick point, maybe Dogens 'deal' to go to the island to save his son, but couldn't see his son again...Maybe smokey man in black IS his son? And while Dogen was alive his son couldn't enter the temple as he would be seen by Dogen??

Confusing yes, likely? Possibly, it is LOST!

Btw, a much more crazy explanation for Lost would be the Alien X scenario from Walt's comic book (season 1).

The only difference to my previous theory would be WHO (Alien X) is actually running this experiment/simulation/game.

no ABC for Cablevision customers in NY area. This better get resolved by Tuesday night! :-(

AHHH!!! Anyone else on Long Island or in the tri-state area and no longer has ABC on the air because of the fight with Cablevision????? They better get this resolved before 9 PM on Tuesday!!!!!!!

Cablevision customers:

Have you tried rabbit ears lately. A lot of people are quite surprised by the nice digital off the air signal available in many areas. Or even just a long wire pushed into the antenna connector.

Couple of notes on TV. Assuming a TV with digital receiver, set to antenna (vs cable). and then do a channel scan.

Some interesting comments here http://tinyurl.com/yc8zn4y on what we can and cannot expect to see in the final episodes. It is a little bit spoilerish, but it doesn't go beyond "will we see X", "yes, no, maybe, no comment".

So, here it goes, with a mild spoiler alert:

**************************
The answer is “yes” to the following: Will Richard and Ilana exchange some words soon? Will we see another painting by Bender? Do some of the characters’ last names have significance, particularly Jack’s? Is Jack married to someone we’ve met before? Was Jacob telling the truth when he said someone was coming to the island? Will we learn more about Hurley and Libby’s connection? Will we see Vincent and Charlie again? Will we learn if Desmond was really on the plane?

The answer is “no” to the following: Will we get a conclusion to the story of Ben’s love, Annie? Do the purple circles in Bender’s mural mean anything? Did Juliet’s ex-husband get killed by a smoke bus? Will there be a DVD release of the show in chronological order?

The answer is “maybe” to the following: Will the Hurley bird be explained? Will we see Walt again?
The answer is “no comment” to the following: Will we learn why women can’t have babies on the island?

Radio silence: After being bombarded with questions about the show for six years, Cuse said they do not plan on commenting on the series finale after it airs.

Final spoiler from Lindelof: “Water.”

**************************

ealgumby: Of course there is ambiguity built into the whole good/evil thing! My mother use to tell us, "There are good people who do bad things and bad people who do good things; it would behoove you to know the difference between the two." I'm trying to know the difference between the two on this show. Why? Because I am hoping if I can sort out who is in which camp it will provide a clue to why the Lostees are in the predicament they are in.

"Granted, good versus evil may be the core concept behind the remaining episodes, but *we* have no idea how that will be revealed." Exactly so. I'm going to try and figure it out because that is my nature, but I hope with all my heart they totally surprise me. Surprise me as in The Sixth Sense ....not as in Deadwood or The Sopranos.

Up until the end they can jerk me around and mislead me and lie to me as long as the show continues to engage me. And if I'm not satisfied at the end? So it goes.

Forgive me if someone has given this "theory"...

not revelent to this episode, but in any case... maybe the boat Libby gave Desmond, the "Elizabeth", wasn't named after her at all. Maybe it was Widmore's boat which he named after is love, Ellie. i'm guessing this has already been mentioned, but i haven't read it and i just thought of it the other day.

Forgive me if someone has given this "theory"...

not revelent to this episode, but in any case... maybe the boat Libby gave Desmond, the "Elizabeth", wasn't named after her at all. Maybe it was Widmore's boat which he named after his love, Ellie. i'm guessing this has already been mentioned, but i haven't read it and i just thought of it the other day.

sorry for the double post, stopped halfway to fix a typo. :P

@309. shikotee: I tease because I love. ;)

@331 Driveshaft: Interesting theory, except that "Ellie" is short for Eloise.

damn... thought i hit something there. should stop posting things i think of before i fall asleep.

im curious to find out what happend to richard alpert,
he told sawyer he was headed to the temple with haste,
we now have richard & ben both on their own,
i just wonder if there is any significance to these 2 characters in no group.

ABC is back for us Cablevision subscribers! i was more stressed about not seeing Lost more than I was about finding a job! lol

San...with only 10 episodes left, I'm most curious about Ben, Richard, and Desmond at this point. I'll be fine with whatever way they end this, but those characters were too important for 5 years.

It doesn't surprise me that D&C will shut down all interviews after the finale- I think they're tired of having the show examined and questioned in minute detail.

In their own words- selected comments from D&C from a very long 3 part Chicago Tribune piece that ran this January:

Lindelof: "But the real reason that we wanted to do time travel was, we’re not fans of expositional downloads where basically characters talk about the history of the island. We wanted to show it to people. We don’t want someone to say, "There used to be a huge statute here of an Egyptian god," we want to see it. And you don’t want to find Jughead and [have someone] basically say, “This must have been brought here by guys during World War II.” You want to see that. You don’t want Widmore to say, “I used to be an Other.” You want to see him as a 16-year-old kid saying, “My name is Charles Widmore."

The biggest reason that we had to do time travel was setting up what we’re doing this year. All of it was leading toward [exploring] this idea of [whether] you can change your fate. And that played into the overriding theme of the show from the word go."

"Part of it is -- despite what people think or say, so much of it has been talked about and planned for years now that you’re just kind of executing the plan to the best of your ability. You're changing the plan when it’s not working, but otherwise, you’re kind of married to the inevitable -- the stuff that we want to do."

Cuse: "For us really, while the mythology is important, for us it’s a story about these characters. And so most of our focus has been on, how are we going to resolve the character stories?

We really feel we are very committed to this notion of not stripping the show of its essential mystery. I mean, mystery exists in life and we kind of always go back to the midi-chlorians example [in the 'Star Wars' prequel films]. Your understanding of the Force was not aided by knowing that there were little particles swimming around in the bloodstreams of Jedi.

There are sort of fundamental elements of mystery and magic to the show that are unexplainable, and any attempt to explain them would actually harm the show, and in our opinion, the legacy of the show."

Cuse: "One of the central themes of the show is free will versus predetermination and that same issue was very much in play in how the show was constructed. Yes, the mythological architecture was constructed back in the first season and between the first and second season, but the actual journey of these characters is something that evolves literally, episode by episode. We view the process of making the show as a very organic one. We watch what happens and how characters play off each other, what relationships are working, what aren’t working."

Lindelof: "I think the worst thing that’s happened in the blogosphere in general is that there’s this sense of needing to insulate yourself from being excited about something by saying, “I’m very skeptical about this.”

And what’s the matter with saying I want Season 6 of “Lost” to be the greatest season ever? But people won’t say it because it’s easier for them to approach it as, "It’s going to let me down, it’s going to disappoint me, it’s going to prove that they were making it up as they went along, they’re not going to answer the questions that I really care about." So if we do those things, they’ll be like, “Oh, I’m pleasantly surprised.”

But if we don’t do those things, then they’ll be like, "It’s exactly what I’ve been saying all along." It’s like, "Is that what you were saying all along? Because then you’re a moron for watching the show for five seasons." You know? Why would you ever let us set you up for such a grand disappointment?"

@#338. Posted by: Mizzed -

Lindelof: "It’s going to let me down, it’s going to disappoint me, it’s going to prove that they were making it up as they went along, they’re not going to answer the questions that I really care about." So if we do those things, they’ll be like, “Oh, I’m pleasantly surprised.”

But if we don’t do those things, then they’ll be like, "It’s exactly what I’ve been saying all along."

While I understand where Lindelof is comming from, the content of season 6 is not going to be a "pleasant surprise".
There is a literary responsibility to finish what you started. Lindelof and Cuse have a responsibility to wrap this thing up properly, and explain the the story/puzzle that they created !

It is not "the questions that I really care about." It is the questions that all of us really care about. They brought us along on this ride, and there is an expectation of a destination that they must deliver. These comments seam like more whining to me. I say they have a job to do, stop whining and deliver the results. So far (Season 6) I am not impressed, but I am so involved that I can't stop watching, waiting, wondering, and I am still entertained, and holding on to my faith in TPTB.

Prognosturbation [prog-nos-tur-BAY-shuhn] - The act of engaging in intellectually stimulating predictions that serve no practical purpose.

OR

How I've Been Spending Seasons 5 and 6 of Lost

After four fansastic seasons and then a fifth-season shift into time traveling, Whatever Happened, Happened and Dead Is Dead, now we learn that the ground has shifted and there's an alternate timeline wherein whatever happened may or may not have happened and dead may or may not be dead. TPTB, here's to you: Phhhhhhhhhhhht!

This Bronx Cheer was sponsored by MacCutcheon's whiskey, cuz this show is driving me to drink!

@339. Posted by: Hurley's Beard

re: "There is a literary responsibility to finish what you started"

I would expect that sometime after the show finishes, they might publish a book that helps explain where they were going with some of the things they do not manage to explain in S6.

I've mentioned before that I'm a Doctor Who fan. The lead producer/writer of the series released a book called "The Writer's Tale" that provided great insight on how the series was brought back for 2005, as well as the creative process in putting the show together. Hopefully, TPTB will do so for Lost.

Out of respect for what they have managed to pull of for six seasons, I'm totally willing to let several things slide. I'd like to hear why certain things were abandoned. Sometimes this is a creative choice, while other times, the choice is made for you (actor leaves series).

If something from the original plan changes, perhaps abandonment is better than some contrived reason written for the sole purpose of giving an explanation?

I don't think we have seen the last of Dogen. When we were first introduced to him he kept grabbing at the item on his necklace (dog whistle to locate Vincent). It was never addressed as to what it was. Any ideas?

@ 76 Bunnylover:

"Way, way long ago in posts and episodes gone by, I mentioned (along with others) that the "smoke monster" might indeed be a Jinn. Jinny's are a "smokey" entity trapped in some type of container (or place?) and have the ability to "grant wishes." Did Flocke not say to Sayid - "What if you could have anything in the world, anything. I can give it to you." (Something along those lines anyway.) I immediately thought back to the theories of Smokey being a Jinn. Going to go bing and google Jinn's again now.

Also, I have pondered the thought that this healing jacuzzi is actually the allusive "Fountain of Youth" which would explain a lot. 1) People like Widmore searching for it. 2)Ageless Richard (and MIB and Jacob). 3) The healing powers. Etc.

Seems to me if there really was a magical Jinny, there could also be a fountain of youth.

MMMmmmkay - I'm jus sayin..."

Remember this post by ANTP? from February 17th:
"Alrighty fellow losties . . . I know many of you are better at this than I am.

Darlton (producers) came out and said that we could figure out a big clue to who the MIB/smokey is. They said that if we take the name "Johnny", then add two vowels and three consonants, that it would create an anagram that would tell us who the MIB is. (By the way, they also said it is in a foreign language - which makes this extra difficult, but some of you are ridiculously smart, so I'm sure you'll come up with something.)

Any takers on this challenge?

Good luck."

I came up with MIB's identity as UNHOLY DJINN. "Johnny" plus U,I and N,D,L.

#78. Posted by: ANTP? at February 17, 2010 10:38 AM

Isn't it intersting that in the whole Destiny -vs- Free Will philosophy of LOST, the characters we have seen so far in the alt/sideways world are still behaving/reacting as they always have despite different circumstances:

Jack fixes
Kate runs
Claire nurtures
Locke struggles
Sayid kills/hurts

Last thoughts on slogging through all the comments and in preparation for tomorrow night.

@114 I think Sayid interrogated Ben when Ben was first captured in Season 2. That would certainly explain a little discomfort on Ben's part in seeing him again, but I am pretty sure Ben has seen Sayid on many occasions after that.

@115 I am getting the same feeling and hope I am wrong.

@121 Kate's horse--I had forgotten about it. Knowing what we know now, does it have a new significance? I am wondering when TPTB developed their story arc that they claim to have had for some time. Before or after Kate's horse which we may never see again. Some day, someone will come up with a list of Lost stuff that was never answered. Mrs. Hawking is going to figure in a number of those.

The incident where Nadia died in Sayid's arms in LA when she was run down by a car always bothered me because Ben had hinted to Sayid when he was recruiting him to bump off Widmore cronies that Nadia's death was due to Widmore. But when we saw her die, it was compounded by Jacob stopping Sayid to ask for directions or the time or something while Nadia continued on across the street. Had Jacob not done that, Sayid might have seen the oncoming car and prevented Nadia's death. Would Jacob go to these lengths to get Sayid back onto the island?

@156 arizona_gal pointing out that there are 108 stitches in a baseball. This is either an amazing coincidence or the baseball analogy has been with TPTB from LOST's inception since the numbers appeared in season 1. If the latter, why? Does the baseball with the camera dwelling on it and Dogen discussing it have a yet to be explained significance in the resolution of the plot. After all, it is the product of 9 (innings) and 12 (apostles, candidates?) (;))

@#343 - glostover

Thanks for reposting that entry from Feb. 17. I didn't remember it.

Also, thanks for the CHILL BUMPS!!

@345. Posted by: August Paul
re: death of Nadia

Interesting angle, but I think we're meant to believe that had Jacob not asked Sayid for directions, Sayid would have died with Nadia. I guess the way I perceive it is that Jacob has seen a variation where he did not intervene, and both die. He opts to meddle, but for his purposes, only saves Sayid.

If Sayid was the primary intended target, one still has to wonder why? At that juncture, he's not Ben's hitman - he's an O6 survivor who is trying to move on with his life. why would Widmore want to bump him? Assuming we learn more about Widmore in upcoming episodes, would it make sense for Widmore to be on Jacob's side?

At #338. ...that D&C will shut down all interviews after the finale.

They have probably forgotten how to speak directly - and not in-half truths.

More likely it amounts to a $$$ issue. If they start telling us exactly what they were trying to show us, then all debate goes away out here in the blogosphere, and people won't buy the Season 6 DVD set - because they got THEIR answer from a creative team interview.

For all you ackattack fans - the "Sundown" review is up! yay!

@338 et al.... i beleive we were set up for a grand disappointment with the way alias ended so maybe many dont want to take that chance again. that series end up a HUGE let down, so our guard is up and we are being selfish. cant TPTB understand that? :)

I guess I'm a moron, then, for daring to note inconsistencies in what TPTB say at one time as opposed to another. But I'd rather think for myself rather than passively go along w/whatever TPTB say when their statements don't jive.

Re the use of time travel: I do understand that exposition isn't the way to tell a story; after all, a tenet of good story-writing is to show & not tell. But I disagree completely that time travel was needed to show past events. What about a good ol' flashback, which has already been firmly established as an explanatory device?

I was going to continue expressing myself, but seeing as how I'm obviously a moron, I won't waste anyone's time. ; )

In any case, GRAA Mac...your reviews are worth watching all the rest of the episodes! And Scooby-Dude (#315), thanks for the shout-out...

@350. Posted by: tiffani
re: Alias end

What would Alias be without Garner? Well - she was pregnant in real life, and this very much limited the writers in the stories they could tell. By that point, the mythology of the show was already skewed. But, they pressed forth, and the end result was total kaka-poo-poo. A perfect example of how real life can alter a show.

@351. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought
re: TPTB inconsistancies

In all fairness, we're all morons here! ;)

Who else would spend so much time analyzing/arguing over a TV show?!?

TPTB are like Jacob - they manipulate us at their leisure, both within and outside of the show.

Personally - I really liked the time travel (Doctor Who fan), and had felt that the flashbacks had become really stale. I concede, this had more to do with where the story was at the time, then the actual story-telling device itself. As Mac has often mentioned, the origin of Jack's tattoo's was more like time kill filler.

Remember - flashbacks allowed us (the viewer) all to experience the past, but the rest of the characters were not privy to this information. I thought that having a select few of our characters "experience" the Dharma Initiative really helped flesh it out.

IITY? (off to read ack now - thanks, BL)

I posted Lindelof's "moron" quote because it was the type of unguarded statement creative types rarely make in public but probably often think in private, not for anyone here to take it as a personal insult.

My guess is that D&C are often frustrated that fans would rather debate at length the blast radius of the freighter explosion or the trajectory of the Oceanic flight path than focus on what is most important to TPTB personally- the development of the characters at the heart of the story.

The end is near, and they want people to relax, come along for the ride and enjoy the story, trusting that they will handle the end with care.

With their money already made and ratings no longer an issue, D&C probably feel more open to challenging fans who invest so much time in watching and rewatching the episodes, then post how unhappy they are on the internet.

Lost fans have always had a "they eat their own" relationship to this show anyway- a sort of simultaneous passion and ownership over the show combined with an obsession to critically pull apart every detail whenever it fails to meet perfection.

My wife doesn't understand my personal time investment to the show, which is how I landed here in the first place. I suspect many of us have similar stories.

sorry if anyone commented on this theory, i haven't read it anywhere else,
my theory is that the smoke monster isn't one person, MIB for instance,
i believe the smoke monster is a combination of all the people who have died on the island.

Coming in August 2010, The Lost Encyclopedia!

tinyurl.com/yae49ef

"Featuring more than 400 pages and over 1500 images, the LOST Encyclopedia will be a comprehensive guide to the characters, items, locations, plotlines, relationships, and mythologies from all six seasons of the landmark series aired on ABC-TV and produced by ABC Studios. Created in full collaboration with ABC Entertainment and ABC Studios, this will be the first and only fully licensed and comprehensive reference to all things LOST, and it includes a foreword by executive producers Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse."

(first saw this on DarkUFO)

@354. Posted by: Mizzed
re: My wife doesn't understand my personal time investment to the show, which is how I landed here in the first place. I suspect many of us have similar stories.

Don't tell me we're as bad as Trekkers?

LoL.... We'll talk about it 10 years from now, when we meet up at the annual Lost convention in Hawaii.

#352. shikotee: Jack's tattoo episode:

It's funny that you would mention that episode...I was just saying to ealgumby last night that IMO that episode was the worst one of the entire series.

#354. Mizzed:

Seeing as how I really don't care what TPTB think of me (nor do they care what I think of them), I didn't take it as a "personal insult"...perhaps I should have used more ; ) to indicate tongue-in-cheek humor over being a "moron." I do think, however, that I have no reason to trust that TPTB will handle the end of the show w/care. They've demonstrated repeatedly that they're willing to contradict themselves, saying one thing at one time then later on doing the opposite. Everything can be explained by science? Sure... No time travel? Sure... Characters' story arcs have been abruptly truncated (Walt, Aaron, Libby, Charlotte, etc. etc. etc.) w/little to no explanation. I don't think I need to go on to make my point.

Really, the reason why I'm disappointed is that, IMHO—& this is just MHO, not open for debate—the show could have been so much better. I almost never watch TV; there's been periods in my life where I had no TV at all & didn't miss it. For four-plus seasons I was really happy w/the complexity of the storytelling & did trust TPTB to tie it all together at the end. Now it appears we're going to be handed a simplistic "who's on the good team & who's on the bad team" ending. If TPTB can't or won't be bothered or are too thin-skinned to listen to their loyal fans, then they're in the wrong business. Again, this is JUST MY OPINION. Obviously other people feel differently.

All that said, I certainly don't regret watching LOST, for reasons beyond the show (obviously ; ) ). I'll miss the community here when it's all done; there are a number of you-all everybody that I would really like to meet in person. I suppose the appropriate line here would be "Maybe 'I'll see you in another life, brutha'"... ; ) ; ) ; )

And in the Out of the Mouths of Babes category...

Miss Longthought was trying to use the German term for Germany, Deutschland, but mispronounced it as "Doucheland." Immediately ealgumby & I realized she had stumbled across the real name of the island. ; > ; > ; >

@352 shikotee proclaimed:

>In all fairness, we're all morons here! ;)

Then I guess we're all Bozos on this bus.

@358

I totally agree that an ending which goes along the lines of "who's on the good team & who's on the bad team" Evil vs Good and which group eventually wins would be a JOKE!

We are not expecting every single mystery to be resolved, as we understand that the show had to be stretched to last for this long and it required some additional/filler stuff.

HOWEVER we would like all major mysteries resolved! e.g. Why these people? Why these numbers? Who is Richard? Whom are Jacob/MIB? What is this island and why its invisible to the rest of the world? etc etc etc...

I really hope that these mysteries are resolved and show provides an overall satisfactory ending!

I am soooooo excited for a Ben episode!!! I want me some evil Ben, please! On my guide info they also list Widmore & Alex as actors who appear. Should be a great episode!

@360 Cecil:
Your Bozo reference made two distant brain cells connect with the Lighthouse episode:

do you remember the old pre-school children's television show, Romper Room? At the end of each show, the hostess would use her "magic mirror" to see into television land and state that she could see kids by name.

I do indeed remember that!

I wonder if she was working for Jacob?

[Edit: No. Just. No.]

Lindelof: "And what’s the matter with saying I want this cup of ‘Kool-Aid’ to be the greatest ever?” ;)

How many of you out there don’t believe in astrology, but sometimes read your horoscope? Never? How about fortune cookies, as I mentioned earlier? Does *anybody* out there take them seriously? Yet clearly there’s a market … like most people, I think they mean nothing, but I find it entertaining to look. I have no expectation of finding twenty words or less of life-changing, inspirational text … I just want to be amused. Sometimes I am, often I am not. Yet still, like a moron, I keep going back to the well for more … shame on me indeed!

I mean, why would I ever let the fortune cookie makers set me up for such grand disappointment? If I don’t believe in them, clearly I should just shut up and leave them to people who do … having determined they do not provide trustworthy information, I would have to be a rank idiot to *ever* even sneak a peek. To do so would be the height of hypocrisy, and indeed would surely justify a never-ending cascade of disdain and scorn from true believers.

Anyone else think that rather extreme take is beyond ridiculous? Yet, apparently Damon sees the world as distinct dichotomy (dare I say white/black … good/evil?). Either you’re a fan, or you’re not; jump on the bandwagon, or look away without comment … you will drink your Kool-Aid and you will like it, or you’re an unworthy moron. Hmm … now I see the basis for Karl’s “Room 23” treatment! ;)

Perhaps Damon’s the one who needs to lighten up and enjoy the ride … there, there, it’s okay Damon; you’re good enough, you’re smart enough, and doggone it, people like you! Hey, it’s a TV show … I do not expect any philosophical enlightenment to come from watching. All I have ever wanted is to be entertained, and the fact I have continued watching, despite my occasional gripes, means TPTB have succeeded. I watched the premiere epi of Fringe, thought it was a waste of my time, and have never watched another minute since. I know many people will disagree with me there, and of course that’s fine. Just as it *should* be fine with Damon for his show to garner ratings share from both casual and otherwise dedicated viewers … even if we aren’t blindly obedient, submissive gimp followers of the show, ready to disavow all our worldly belongs and join the Bad Robot cult at his command.

May God, I mean Damon, please forgive me for being so skeptical … apparently, I’m evil now.

EAL old boy,

You should c'mon over to the dark side with Fringe. I felt the same way after the first few episodes, but kept watching and was won over, and I'm even blogging it now.

Memo to self: Never start blogging a show that debuts two days after you've had a major operation. Hard to get caught up.

Anyhoo, many of the strange-science episodes turn out to be connected, and to have a long story-arc explanation that makes some kind of sense, and the players have been fleshed out considerably even without resorting to flashbacks, mainly because half the cases turn out to have some sort of connection to Bishop, Sr's former work, and a logical explanation has been discovered for his term in the crazy house and for his inability to remember some of even the simplest things.

We've got a potential interdimentional war brewing, a stange group of 'watchers' observing all the action for as yet unknown reasons, and we've even got jj abrams and 'bad-robot' on every episode.

You should give it another try - Fringe has been renewed for a third season and the 'spring premiere' (they're dividing the season into two parts, a la Lost Season 3) starts April 1.

* * * Teeny Tiny Spoiler Warning * * *

Avert your eyes if wishing to remain innocent.

In a video podcast posted on the ABC website Merch 5, Nestor (Richard) Carbone says the March 23 Episode S-6-09 gives a lot more explanation about island matters, and his character, than he was expecting.

I love Lost.

#369. Clementine: I love Lost:

W/episodes like tonight's I totally agree. : )

Ladies, I concur. We got us an answer!

Dude I love your recaps so much. They are informative and halarious!