The Lost Blog

Key Points from "Across the Sea"

Season 6, Episode 15
Episode Air Date: 05/11/10

Point 1

Jacob MIB

I understand why this episode was produced. It's half origin story and half mythological brain dump. And there were some interesting bits, no doubt there. But let me sum my opinion up this way: If "Lost" had focused on Jacob, MIB and their wacky "Mother" from the very beginning, I never would have watched this show. I just don't care about these characters and their deep psychological scars. For six years we've watched a fantastic ensemble of great actors playing great characters battling with their own Big Problems. The Jacob-MIB-Mother trio felt like window dressing. And is it just me, or was the acting a little meh?

That said, I'll give the writers credit for revealing Jacob to be the island's Norman Bates. Discovering that for many years he was a naive and gullible pawn in his crazy adopted mother's machinations ... well, that just wasn't expected. What I would have loved to have seen is how he went from a wide-eyed and kinda dumb rube to the smirking, semi-omniscient character we've come to know. How did that happen?

Anyway ...

I see I'm dangerously close to violating my "No Bitching in Season Six" rule (okay, so I bitched a little ... I think I've earned that much). And since I didn't love this episode as an episode, what I'll do instead is dig into the revelations and lessons learned. That's what we'll remember, after all.

Let's begin at the beginning: Jacob and MIB, the early years

-- Jacob and MIB are twins. Their mother -- the real one -- was named Claudia. She was pregnant with the twins when her ship wrecked on the island. There were other survivors in her party, but they washed ashore elsewhere on the island and eventually built a lovely little village that looked like the Epcot-approved version of pre-industrial Dharmaville.

-- Claudia gave birth to Jacob and MIB within a day of crashing. She was assisted by the island's self-assigned "protector" -- a disheveled woman who could easily best Rousseau in a worst-hygiene competition.

-- Claudia only expected one baby, and when the light-haired one popped out first she christened him "Jacob." Baby No. 2 -- the one with the dark hair and the grumpy demeanor -- didn't receive a name ... like, ever. Now, I'm sure someone along the line gave him a nickname -- maybe "Scooter" or "Cockroach" or "Stank" -- but in strict terms, MIB has no official name.

-- Crazy island lady brained Claudia exactly 60 seconds after Baby MIB appeared. And for the next 13 years, Jacob and MIB were raised by their new "Mother." Seeing this chick in action gives added weight to that "My Mom Was A Crazy Bugger" story Flocke told Kate in "Recon." He wasn't kidding. "Mother" told the boys there was nothing beyond the island -- no other people, no other places. Jacob, the dullard, swallowed this nonsense without a peep. But young MIB never bought it.

-- Interestingly, MIB was Mother's favorite ... for a while, at least. She told the young rapscallion that he was "special." (I'm not sure if this is the same flavor of "special" once assigned to Walt, but I hope that's the case because it would be an excellent connection.) One day, after Jacob and MIB stumbled across survivors from Claudia's shipwreck, Mother led the boys to a previously undocumented island locale: a hard-to-find cave that contains a warm light (it's like the pool in "Cocoon," minus Wilford Brimley). She informs the boys that one of them will someday take her place as the island's protector, and it's clear she's pulling for MIB.

-- We also learn that Mother likes her rules. She tells Jacob and MIB that neither can hurt the other (something I take issue with in Key Point 2), and we discover that neither boy can leave the island (I'm not sure how Jacob managed to make all those off-island trips; perhaps she meant they couldn't leave permanently). Alas, the rules lose their power when Ghost Claudia appears to MIB and tells him the truth about his birth, his real mother and the wider world. The wheels of dismay start to turn and MIB soon joins up with the remnants of Claudia's old crew. His mission: get off the damn island (sensing a theme here?)

And that brings us to ...

Point 2

Jacob MIB

Jacob and MIB, the adult years

Thirty years pass. Jacob and Mother live on one side of the island and MIB remains with his adopted clan. But it's a period of relative peace, even to the point where Jacob occasionally drops in on MIB to catch up and play their favorite game: white rocks vs. black rocks (DING! PROP ALERT!).

Things go south quickly, however. MIB has searched fruitlessly for the Mystical Cave he saw all those decades ago. But, as is his custom, he's discovered a loophole. He and his comrades have systematically dug holes in spots where the island goes wacky for metal (Flocke tells Desmond about these holes just before tossing him into that ancient well). And lookee here! MIB and his crew found a particularly active hotspot that emits the same warm glow seen at the cave. Now, all he needs is to hook a brand new donkey wheel up to some sort of water/light contraption (I didn't understand that part) and with a couple spins of that wheel he'll soon be off to ... well, he's a little unclear about that part. But he's pretty sure he'll get off the island, so the destination isn't all that important.

Unfortunately, Mother gets wind of MIB's little plan and thwarts his effort by cracking his head against a stone wall. When MIB wakes up sometime later, the pit is filled in and his village -- and its accompany citizens -- have been given the Uncle Owen/Aunt Beru treatment. MIB retaliates by destroying Mother's beloved tapestry and sticking a dagger in her chest. And then, because this is a full-fledged soap opera now, Jacob beats the snot out of MIB and tosses him into the Mystical Cave. Gurgles and rumbles ensue. The light dims. And moments later a pillar of smoke zooms out of the cave and takes flight. Jacob has unwittingly turned MIB into a homicidal rain cloud. Fantastic.

The interesting bit is that the human version of MIB died. Jacob places the bodies of Mother and MIB next to each other in a cave. This is the same spot where hundreds of years later the pair's withering bones are dubbed "Adam and Eve" by one of the island's newest residents, John Locke.

It's nice to close the loop on Adam and Eve theories, but what I'm more interested in is Jacob's violation of the "do no harm" rule. Technically, MIB was knocked unconscious and then floated into the Mystical Cave, but c'mon now. Jacob beat the crap out of him and pushed him in there. And MIB -- the human version -- clearly died. So not only did Jacob hurt his brother, but he also killed him. Right? Or am I missing something here?

Moreover, if the "Rules" are now questionable -- and I believe they are -- we've also got to doubt the legitimacy of Mother herself. Who appointed her Island Protector? Isn't it possible that she just made all this stuff up to keep her adopted boys on the island? She alludes to that in her final moments with MIB. So, if that's the case, I'm thinking the "Lost" finale could follow in the footsteps of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer": the all-important prophecy -- the very thing that guided that series -- was overcome when the characters decided to not play by the rules.

Point 3

Island

A few closing questions and observations:

  • Best Line: "One day you can make up your own game and everyone else will have to follow your rules." -- Young MIB to Young Jacob.
  • Second Best Line: "Every question and answer will simply lead to another question. You should rest." -- Mother to Claudia (if that's not a message for the audience then I don't know what is)
  • Why was MIB able to see Ghost Claudia, but she wasn't visible to Jacob? Does this hint at some sort of connection between MIB and fellow dead-people-viewer Hurley?
  • Is the Mystical Cave -- or the Island's Heartlight or whatever we're calling that thing -- only visible to candidates? Both MIB and Jacob were on Mother's short list, so I guess that qualifies. But if candidates have been zipping around the island for centuries, don't you think someone would have stumbled across that thing?
  • The foreign-language-to-English transition in this episode was shaky. I know those things are tough, and going with all-subtitled dialogue is asking for trouble. But a little sprinkle of music and a pullaway just didn't cut it. The single best transition of this type I've ever seen was in the otherwise unremarkable movie "The 13th Warrior." And the one in "Hunt for Red October" wasn't too shabby either. Interestingly, both films were helmed by the same director.

That's all I've got!

Next Episode:

"What They Died For" -- Ominous much? Airs Tuesday, May 18, 2010 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

First!

#1. Posted by: l0stb0y at May 12, 2010 12:05 AM

My head hurts!

#2. Posted by: MySoulmateDigsLost at May 12, 2010 12:06 AM

SIF!!!!!!

If not, then SIS!, SIT!, SIF!, SIF! ,SIS!, SIS! ,SIE! ,SIN! ,SIT!....... and so on!

You get the picture!

In any case - looking forward to reading the review. Pinch me if I am wrong, but it seems like many of this saw this coming. Jacob and Whatchamacallit are brothers, and crazy fake mama Youknowwho brought them up. As suspected - the heart of the island - aka the light - it is also the source of the magnetic anomalies.

Not sure how i feel about this episode. It was interesting to watch, but seemed almost too predictable. The moment the game was found, I already knew who Adam and Eve would be. I wish there would have been more curve balls.

I found the light cave interesting, but felt they dropped the ball location wise. Seriously - with all that light, it would stick out like a sore thumb at night. Having the light inside a cavern would have made more sense.

So Jacob succeeds his fake mom as guardian of the island - aka the light-force. How did she slaughter all of them, and how did she bury that well? When does the wheel as we know it get built, and by whom? Does Jacob do it, and this is how he leaves the island to visit potential candidates?

#3. Posted by: shikotee at May 12, 2010 12:08 AM

I'm lost.....

#4. Posted by: Tone at May 12, 2010 12:10 AM

GRAA Mac. I'm with you, this episode sorta sucked. Don't care about these characters, the rules seem to be violated right and left, and the latin-to-english transition was weak.

But I guess we are just supposed to shut the hell up and realize that "Every question and answer will simply lead to another question" and just rest.

After tonight's episode and last night's Letterman appearance by Evy Lilly I am more ready than ever for a return to the storyline featuring our main characters.

#5. Posted by: arkansasron at May 12, 2010 12:26 AM

Thanks for a great recap Mac!

It would seem the light represents life and existence as we know it- aka human existence and the Earth. Crazy mother destroyed the human's attempts to harness the power of life and existence and the protector of the island serves as the catalyst between life and darkness void of any living being. I believe Jacob WAS influential in the Dharma Purge because he recognized their intent to exploit the fantastic nature of the Island. Jacob, or whoever holds his position, is the one person who is either brought or randomly lands on the island who is genuinely good or possesses the ability to do good when given the opportunity to remain as they were in the "real" world. Jack seems to fall perfectly into this role because he has lived on both the Island and the "real" world and has decided the Island is the proper place for him to essentially repent for all his wrongs.
I am still perplexed as to why the Temple exists and , considering the Others believed it to be sacred to them, who are the Others and did they build the Temple to worship the powers of the Island?

#6. Posted by: l0stb0y at May 12, 2010 12:26 AM

What language were Claudia and crazy momma speaking prior to the Red October moment? Why did crazy momma thank MIB when he killed her? What was the significance of the loom? I think it may be important. Going to go take two aspirin.

#7. Posted by: Kim at May 12, 2010 12:28 AM

hmmm...so, if Hurley is "special" in the same way MIB is "special" is Ben also "special"? He did see his dead mother.

Did anyone else think that the drink Mother shared with Jacob turned them into Smoke Monsters? If not, does anybody have a theory on how they were able to cause so much destruction and fill in the entire pit?

Can't say it was my favourite episode by any means but at least we know who Adam and Eve are now ;)

#8. Posted by: surefoot at May 12, 2010 12:28 AM

You have got to be kidding me! I really do not care a flip about this story line. What a waste of one of the last hours.

#9. Posted by: WinK at May 12, 2010 12:29 AM

@Mac

Yeah - I think you nailed what I was feeling about this episode.

"What I would have loved to have seen is how he went from a wide-eyed and kinda dumb rube to the smirking, semi-omniscient character we've come to know. How did that happen?"

I kept thinking about this as well. Also - how the hell and who the hell built everything, like the statue, temple, lighthouse, etc... These are the things that I wanted to know more about, but all we got was zip. Sigh!

"Epcot-approved version of pre-industrial Dharmaville."

LoL - Awesome!

"the one with the dark hair and the grumpy demeanor -- didn't receive a name ... like, ever."

At this stage, I find this very annoying. Honestly - what is the point? Is there any good reason to not give the person a name? I rank this with the whole Sun loss of English thingy.

"the pit is filled in and his village -- and its accompany citizens -- have been given the Uncle Owen/Aunt Beru treatment."

LoL! Well played good sir! I thought of this, and how Anakin slaughters the Sandpeople.

"So not only did Jacob hurt his brother, but he also killed him. Right? Or am I missing something here?"

MIB claims that he only lost his body, so it seems he is not dead. As crazy fake mama warned - entering the light cave is a who knows what no-no!

#10. Posted by: shikotee at May 12, 2010 12:35 AM

I, too, thought the transition to English by the wacky woman and Claudia was a little odd.
At one point adopted mom told MIB that he was "like her" and Jacob never was. It seems they have some kind of clairvoiance, can read others thoughts -- she "knew" when he was lying. And I think that is why MIB could see ghost-Claudia but Jacob couldn't.
And maybe the light-cave was only visible to the boys because "mom" wanted them to see it, but when MIB left them, he was no longer one of the preferred ones, and therefore couldn't find it again.
One question, if MIB was killed (and later decomposed), how was he was sitting with Jacob having a conversation -- the whole "do you know how much I want to kill you" conversation???
The camp of MIB's friends looked an awful lot like the camp of the military personnel that were there in the 50's (I think, if I remember the time shifts correctly) -- when they had the Jughead at the ready.
Did the light go out in the cave once MIB was swept into it? It did seem to dim a bit. "Mom" said the cave held all the goodness and evil (or something like that), and that going in there would mean something worse than death?!? So, is the smoke monster all goodness and evil in one? Don't really get it. (Big surprise, right?)

#11. Posted by: bridge at May 12, 2010 12:35 AM

I can see the spin-off now, like Mac said, Jacob & MIB - The Early Years.

#12. Posted by: dk at May 12, 2010 12:42 AM

@ #11 One question, if MIB was killed (and later decomposed), how was he was sitting with Jacob having a conversation -- the whole "do you know how much I want to kill you" conversation???

MIB was able to assume his own body because it was never buried-think Christian Shepard. It wasn't until later or around humans that he assumed the likeness of people known to those he was attempting to manipulate.

#13. Posted by: l0stb0y at May 12, 2010 12:48 AM

@#13
hmmmmm, interesting... thanks
or maybe "mom" gave him 'the gift' she shared w/ MIB when she shared the wine with him, and now he can see dead people, too, and MIB wasn't actually there at all, just an apparition.

#14. Posted by: bridge at May 12, 2010 12:53 AM

Thanks Mac

Blah

Like some of you, just didn't get the purpose of this one.

Just some good screen time for a couple young boys with piercing blue eyes.

Ya, I know, pooh pooh on me...

#15. Posted by: tweedle_dee at May 12, 2010 12:57 AM

Mom has powers? Mainly, she killed all those people - how? She filled in the well - how? And she was on the island by herself - for how long?

I'm not sure this episode was all that valuable. Maybe, but I'm not getting it as there still has to be a beginning and I doubt we'll ever get that question answered. It will be wonderful to see what everyone thinks re: this episode.

#16. Posted by: dk at May 12, 2010 1:00 AM

@14 "or maybe "mom" gave him 'the gift' she shared w/ MIB when she shared the wine with him, and now he can see dead people, too, and MIB wasn't actually there at all, just an apparition."

Don't forget that MIB was visible to everyone as Locke, without taking on the real body of Locke, as we've seen him walk past Locke's coffin with his actual body still in it.

#17. Posted by: JacobnEsau at May 12, 2010 1:01 AM

@17 Don't forget that MIB was visible to everyone as Locke, without taking on the real body of Locke, as we've seen him walk past Locke's coffin with his actual body still in it.

I don't think MIB/Smokey actually takes over their physical body. If that were the case, then when he changed to Smokey, the body would be seen lying on the jungle floor. I think he just needs the physical presence of the body to assume its shape and appearance. Kind of like T-1000 in Terminator 2

#18. Posted by: l0stb0y at May 12, 2010 1:08 AM

@#17
yeah, you're right (I keep forgetting the things I've talked myself into just accepting)
This show is killing me.... I don't think I'm ever going to 'get it', you know? Just when I think I've gotten something figured out, some other details come up to contradict it. Aggghhhhhh.....

#19. Posted by: bridge at May 12, 2010 1:09 AM

@mac

One additional point. OK, Two additional points to Key point 1

o Claudia washes ashore speaking Latin. This places the time approximately two thousand years back, as Jimmy Kimmel noted tonight. FMom spoke latin back to her as well.

o Didn't Jack (or was it Locke) estimate Adam and Eve's demise at 20-30 years ago, 'based on the decomposition of their clothes' or some such. So much for Jack's (or Locke's) archaeological powers.


Key Point 2

o I wondered the same from the first time Jacob bloodied MIB's nose - what about the "I've made it so you can't hurt each other" rule?

o And just how did FMom devastate the village like that? Anybody wonder if she's taken her own trip down the glowing green river and come out smoke?

o And, if so, now we know how MIB knows the dagger has special posers to kill smoke monsters while in bodily form.

o And this maybe argues Jacob is a smoke monster, too, since it was used to kill him. (Once attempted by Richard, and - was it the same dagger? -by Locke.)


Key point 3

o I wondered about the MIB/Hurley connection, too.

o And of course the mysterious boy we've been seeing on the island is young Jacob, so what?, when?, where?, why? and an extra big helping of how? Is he Jacob's ghost? Did the real Jacob die young? And are Richerd (iirc) and Sawyer abkle to se dead people too? Or is FMom's magik bringing him back around ("it'll come back around") after original Flavor Jacob dies?


o=========================

@2 You're back?!? (Hope I'm right)

o=========================

@everybody - hope you saw the Jacob/MIB "How to Pass Eternity on a Desert Island by playing Connect Four Million (TM)" on Jimmy Kimmel - if not look for it on YouTube - hilarious.

#20. Posted by: Cecil at May 12, 2010 1:11 AM

GRAA, Mac! I somewhat agree with your opinion, yet I also believe it was a great episode.

I just want to know MIB's name.

Funny how he might be the "good".

All MIB every gave Jacob was love. Too bad Jacob was extremely naive and the perfect target for brainwashing. MIB as a child asked questions, and was open to forming his own opinions. Jacob blindly accepted his Fmother's.

#21. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 12, 2010 1:12 AM

So did FMom spend their whole childhood calling "Jacob - you other one - time fo dinner?"

#22. Posted by: Cecil at May 12, 2010 1:15 AM

Maybe not "good"... but at least the origins of his rage is understandable and explained.

#23. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 12, 2010 1:16 AM

...and after all that, still not sure who is good and who is bad.

#24. Posted by: dharmaville at May 12, 2010 1:16 AM

@#21 "All MIB every gave Jacob was love. Too bad Jacob was extremely naive and the perfect target for brainwashing. MIB as a child asked questions, and was open to forming his own opinions. Jacob blindly accepted his Fmother's."
So true. I'm beginning to wonder (as someone posted earlier) if we can trust anything fake-mom had to say, or if it all was just a crock. or is she simply just plain crazy.

#25. Posted by: bridge at May 12, 2010 1:20 AM

And a reminder -

A group of us are discussing the best way to continue our little community after (-sniff-) The End.

Possibilites raised so far

1) A Facebook Group
2) A Yahoo Group

We're using the "Niceness" blog as a discussion arena to avoid cluttering the episode blogs with off-topic discussion - click my namebelow to go there.

Oh, and what to call it? - surefoot suggested "Mac's Flocke" (or should that be "Mac's FLocke"?) which seems like a winner to me. Could be our community gathering place in the long cold LostLess future.

#26. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 12, 2010 1:23 AM

Long time Reader. 1st time Poster.
I believe that Jacob became immortal when he drank from the cup. Up until that time. He and MIB both aged appropriately. You notice that in 30 years, Mother (Allison Janney) never aged. I believe Mother's plan was to have them both drink from the cup, become immortal, and never able to hurt each other.
He was able to hurt his MIB brother because MIB had not yet drank from the cup and was still human. Therefore Jacob was able to kill the human MIB. What made MIB immortal was going down the light cave. Don't know exactly, but there it seemed that his soul was released from his body and transformed into the smoke monster.
Of course, this is my own speculation...
Also, not that I am into religion, but did anyone else notice the parallels in christianity when Ms. Janney passed the cup for Jacob to drink?

#27. Posted by: reny at May 12, 2010 1:24 AM

THIS. EPISODE. WAS. TERRIBLE. sorry to REALLY violate the no-bitching rule, but UGH--bad acting (especially by the youngsters), bad sets/costumes, slow, dragged-out story line, cheesy flashbacks to season 1 eps... what a huge waste of one of the last precious few episodes that remain. a tremendous disappointment, really.

but yes, at least a few questions were answered. and i'm so glad mac mentioned the "star wars" connection (once again)--i actually called out "uncle owen... aunt beru!?" as MIB returned to his camp.

oh, darlton...

#28. Posted by: schmaboo at May 12, 2010 1:25 AM

ANTDWPOL?

Anyone notice they dispensed with "Previously on Lost"?

MTSSHEWTB.

Maybe this show should have ended with the bomb.

#29. Posted by: cyp at May 12, 2010 1:34 AM

I'm surprised at the sentiment for this episode. Oh well, I thought it was terrific.

I believe that Fmom must have smokey like powers or could call on Smokey to bury the well and kill everyone so quickly.

It also appeared that she knew when she was going to die.

Jacob was different than MIB. MIB was just like all the others susceptible to his own desire to leave the island.

I believe the timeframe for this episode was 29AD or so. That would give Jacob a lot of time to figure things out.

I think it was Smokey who had the people brought to the island build the Donkey Wheels, temples, and Dharma experiments all in an attempt to get off the island. I also think it gave the knowledge to MIB to know where to dig and what to look for. It uses the dead or images of the dead as a means of communication and manipulation.

I am excited to see how it plays out. That well of life will be central to the final outcome I am sure.

#30. Posted by: theoldred29 at May 12, 2010 1:35 AM

**Possible MIB Name: Is that a spoiler?**

I think MIB's name is Esau. They couldn't use it on the show before as the "twin" thing would have been apparent (see a bible or wikipedia).

No idea, though, why they are named Jacob and Esau -- the rest of the biblical story doesn't seem to fit the current story line (thank Dog), whatever that is. At least I don't think so. I'm so confused!

I'd say this episode jumped the shark just a little.

#31. Posted by: Pele at May 12, 2010 1:36 AM

Wow, I fully expected that people would have loved this, but apparently I'm bad at predicting this sort of thing. My feelings were decidedly "meh" after Ab Aeterno, but everyone LOVED that...

Basically, what I loved about this episode was the evisceration of the simplistic good/evil distinction that seemed to have settled on Jacob and Flocke. After "The Candidate," we said, OK, Flocke killed innocent people whom we love, so he's evil. And sure, that's fine, but in this episode we got much more interesting information about him. He's the curious, dangerous aspect of humanity, distinct from the naive and bland Jacob. I thought that although the episode tended to hit us over the head with these a little much, they were still quite interesting. A fantastic way to resolve a lot of mythological loose ends while giving us something to ponder. Not to mention the obvious relevance of these themes--trust, doubt, etc.--to the characters we really care about.

#32. Posted by: Owen at May 12, 2010 1:36 AM

This episode makes sense but I do have a question about last week.
If MIB/Flocke has always been on the island how does he know about bombs and wires and how to rig explosives? Did he take a correspondence course?

#33. Posted by: dennis at May 12, 2010 2:28 AM

It's so interesting that the majority of you didn't like the epi tonight. I actually liked it a lot. We have had questions about these two and doing this show did help some...we did learn a few things about them. If they had not done this epi--well, that would have sucked when you think about it. How else would we have learned about them? Sorry not to add sunshine to the rain here :)
Interesting..MiB is dead! And he took over his OWN body this whole time.
The light was the 'heart' of the island and now it's in HIM so of course he cannot leave.

#34. Posted by: christina at May 12, 2010 2:33 AM

I think there is a lot to get out of this episode. Seems like most posters didn't like it. I hope that doesn't cause us to loose focus and not tear it apart and examine. I need you guys. You help me understand the show a lot.

#35. Posted by: jack at May 12, 2010 2:52 AM

Long post Warning

Wow!!! All you guys. Comments like Terrible episode, and so on. what a bunch of whiners. I got a lot out this one.
Fake mom guards the essence of the island life death and re-birth.
Jacob was the candidate to replace her.
As such he really had no choice.
Jacob is a squid stick!!!
Jacob kills his own twin brother. "He took my body and took my humanity"
MIB was wronged in many ways, he may be evil to us, but we know not what he has been through (Something I have repeatedly said. I told you so. there I said it.)
Yes I think that the crazy mother went into the light.
The well with the Donkey wheel was an inconstancy though. when it was filled up following Lockes decent and the ensuing flash, the well top was intact. it was destroyed in this episode.
MIB wants to go home. His home is not in the present day, so WTF is he talking about now?
MIB built the FDW. and the water with the light has something to do with the transport off the island.
Mom Lies big time. Death is something MIB boy will not have to worry about. Tell it to his bones mom!!!

I loved this episode. plenty of good stuff to chew on and more to analyze before next week.

Remember to be positive, we love this show GDI.

#36. Posted by: Revelation at May 12, 2010 3:02 AM

Anyone else expecting Claudia to say "His name is Jacob." and then after the second birth. "His name is MIB." :)

GRAA Mac - completely with you on the sentiment about this one. Please let it pick up again for the final run in.

#37. Posted by: flambe moi at May 12, 2010 3:09 AM

I forgot to mention that the wine in the bottle represented malevolence. A malevolence that began with the murder of his mother, and culminated in Jacobs acceptance of the malevolence for himself.
He made the choice. a choice that he did not give many who he brought to the island. and a choice that his brother paid for with his life and his humanity.


@10 - Shikotee "MIB claims that he only lost his body, so it seems he is not dead"

Not exactly accurate my friend. MIB said that HE (Jacob) was the devil and that he took my body and my humanity.
MIB did not say he LOST anything.

I will have more later.

#38. Posted by: Revelation at May 12, 2010 3:42 AM

Awww.. I thought I saw them going a different direction with this.

I thought the boys would rebel and plan to leave the island. Fmom would find out and murder the children.

MIB and Brother would be ghosts,trapped on the island. MIB would remember seeing the spirit of his mother. She was the one who filled him in on all the details prior to his death. He recalls Fmom telling him he's "special" and concludes that he could see dead people.

I thought the "canidates" would be people who could see dead people.

Jacob would use the donkey wheel to transport to earth as an invisible spirit, and would seek a child/person who could see him. He would then consider them a "candidate" and would alter their life to send them to the island.

Goal is to bring bodies to the island who could see them (Jacob and MIB). They would also be subject to see other odd things on the island (ie: water walt).

If they can get one of them get themselves killed and leave their body on the island, they could inhabit it. And then if they could kill off all the other witnesses (the remaining candidates) then they could leave and live "across the sea".

Trick is, Mom says one of them has to stay. So MIB is trying to pull a fast one to win the game, which is to be the FIRST off the island.

Because MIB turns into the smoke monster, Jacob would be the one who would turn the wheel and transport to the real world (other worlds?) to find more "candidates" to accomplish this task.

#39. Posted by: Dan at May 12, 2010 3:45 AM

OK, this was all great, but I was waiting the whole episode for when Jacob and MIB set up THEIR whole game. What are their rules? How did that start? When did Jacob and the Smoke Monster actually first talk? They didn't give us as much relevant information as I wanted. I find those questions more relevant than their mommy issues, at least.

That being said, I don't think the episode was as awful as everyone thinks, or a waste of time. It gave info I really wanted, I just wish they could have summed it up better, and perhaps a little clearer. Who appointed their "mom" as head honcho? And why was MIB her favorite? Maybe because she knew he was smarter and more suited to be a protector. Clearly, in the end, he is.

And honestly, I get the whole "let's make him spooky and god-like by not giving him a name" thing, but come on, his mother and brother don't ever use his name? Come on. The dude had a name.

Last point: I know he's evil, but Original MIB (Titus Welliver) is a seriously foxy dude. Not gonna lie.

#40. Posted by: Emma at May 12, 2010 4:19 AM

So who finished creating the Frozen Donkey Wheel machine? When MIB gets his head bashed the wheel is still on the side waiting to be put into place. Then he wakes up and the well is samshed up and filled in. If MIB then re-dug the well and finished off the FDW to create the escape route to Tunisia, why is he still on the island? If he can't leave this way because he's dead and now a smoke monster then why can he leave any other way? Too many questions, too many inconsistencies. Sorry to break the bitchin' rule but this episode hit bottom for me. Thankfully the only way from bottom is upwards.

#41. Posted by: flambe moi at May 12, 2010 4:46 AM

Interesting how mom tells the boys that the other people on the island "fight, kill, it's always the same" and then MIB is telling Jacob the same thing centuries(?)later.

My early morning brain is fuzzy - didn't Jacob actually give Richard some of the wine when he granted him eternal life? The whole Catholic analogy with mom and Jacob and the wine felt yucky - I really expected Jacob to take a sip and choke or something.

Mac, good call with the Norman Bates/Mother relationship!

And then there's our overall frustration re: The Rules. I didn't expect Mel Brooks presenting us with three - no, two - stone tablets explaining everything the brothers have ever done to our castaway friends. But even the game of Calvinball had some clarity!

I guess we all wanted some kind of benevolent, omniscient being in charge - and instead it seems like we've got a couple of big kids who pass the time by pulling the wings and legs off of helpless insects.

Yeah, that's depressing. (And gross.) I think this episode just didn't do enough for me so late in the game.

#42. Posted by: jaybee at May 12, 2010 4:48 AM

Did anyone else watch the intro and think "Worst Mother's Day Episode Ever?"

#43. Posted by: Yarney at May 12, 2010 5:09 AM

On the Latin-to-English transition - I just assumed the writers were showing the characters, two strangers, switch from the era's Lingua Franca to some more regional dialect that the women inferred from a couple exchanges that they both knew. Rome WAS a super-huge, multi-linguistic empire y'know! That might explain, too, why Mom switches to Latin again when she does some incantation over the wine before offering it to Jacob. She's not necessarily speaking Latin the whole time.

And sorry but I just don't get the Crazy Unhygienic Mother meme around here. (Okay, Undead Claire excepted!) I never found Rousseau to be any battier than anyone else, or any more hygienically challenged. Same goes now for Jacob's Mom. Given the mojo properties of the island and the stakes of her balance-of-the-cosmos task, what struck my was how clear-eyed this Allison Janney Mom came across. Sure, she'll kill you and take your kids if she has to, but she's not particularly happy about it! I rather liked the tone of both of her "I'm sorry" statements, before bashing Claudia, and then MIB: sincere, regretful, but not wallowing and certainly not wild-eye nutty.

Kinda like if you were Chief of Staff for President Bartlet and there were some things you really didn't want to have to do in your position, but you knew that the consequences of not doing them were far more dire. So you suck it up and do what you gotta do.

#44. Posted by: iheartsayid at May 12, 2010 6:11 AM

Anybody else wonder if the water in the Temple's magic dunking pool came from the same source as the green glowing river, at least before whatever happened (Jacob's death?) to turn it into Celestial Seasonings tea color?

Might explain why a dunking would cause you to "lose your innocence".

#45. Posted by: Cecil at May 12, 2010 6:43 AM

Fmom said the boys couldn't hurt each other. I think she meant "kill" each other. I assume she gave MIB some of that eternal life wine at an earlier point when he was the "chosen one". Jacob killed the body but MIB did not die.
The flashbacks to season one seemed to suggest to me that maybe MIB was starting to take seed in Locke all the way in the beginning.

#32. Posted by: Owen--hey Uncle Owen's alive! :)

I totally got the Norman Bates vibe last night as well though it was more toward the relationship of MIB and Fmom as they hugged before she knocked him out and then he killed her after he woke up. "Don't you try to get off this island Norman!"

Totally think Fmom went in the cave and is a Smokey as well. How else could she do all that damage? Which leads me to believe we'll see her again and maybe we already have seen her but thought it was MIB.

The transition to English seemed odd. Fmom seemed to look up as if to a higher power when the transition took place as if they were reverse Babel like being given the power to understand rather than have more confusion. Seemed like it was supposed to be odd.

The avoidance of MIBs name was fun for a bit but I really felt it should have had a payoff with some sort of reveal at the end.

And I'm back to wondering what exactly is so evil about MIB?

#46. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 12, 2010 7:19 AM

@27 posted by: Reny
"I believe that Jacob became immortal when he drank from the cup. Up until that time. He and MIB both aged appropriately. ...
Oooh, good theory. I like that.
@37 posted by: flambe moi
"Anyone else expecting Claudia to say "His name is Jacob." and then after the second birth. "His name is MIB." :)" Haha! I was thinking the exact thing. That would have been too funny.
I was ok with this epi. Or maybe I just don't want to not like it so I search hard for reasons to like it. However, I don't understand how on the island the men can keep their hair so short yet not wash the dirt off of their faces and bodies.
My husband says we are all going to be so disappointed with the finale. Kind of like when Seinfeld ended. They build you up, then let you down. I hope not. :)

#47. Posted by: Amyr at May 12, 2010 7:43 AM

Ok, I have to put my two cents in here. If you don't like it please be kind, I have a thin skin.

We have been asking:
Who are Adam and Eve?
How did Jacob and MIB start their game? Who built the Donkey wheel? Are MIB and Jacob brothers? Who was the crazy mother? What is the island?

Now you know (kind of) and are still sniping. I think it is just that we don't like the answers.

I liked the episode. I was able to put things together and say, Ah! that's where that came from.

I thought the epi was over flowing with religion. Roman Catholic background here. And I saw sooooo much. Fmom is kind of like a god or maybe the follower of the religion dedicated to that god. She tells her sons something and they BELIEVE! As all mothers and priests and rabbi's etc. do. They trust her and ask questions and split along what they grow to believe. The passing along of a treasured secret of good, happiness, love, life itself. The indoctrination of her sons to continue the belief. To guard something ,an ideal,so precious as life on earth even though you kill and manipulate and lie and hurt all in the name of that ideal. All of this , as early religions were ,is based on the ignorance of natural phenomena.

Perhaps the tragedy is that the island is just a phenomenon and nothing more. The guardians of the island playing a game with power and people is all a soap opera that the losties walked into. And poor MIB is trying to go home to a home/time that no longer exists. he does not even understand what he is dealing with.

Of course this does not explain any of the time lines or time jumping.

What were the other men on the island wearing around their necks?
Looked like an Omega symbol?

Was there really something in the wine? Or was it just a mystical wine like the wine in a christian mass? And Jacob is naive enough to believe it?

How do what we know about the characters fit in with this new island history?

Someone mentioned that MIB has been trying to get off the island since 200 Ad. Now that is a long time.
So, remember how we would get dribs of an idea? A clue here and there and would weave fascinating scenarios? That's what we are still supposed to do. I don't think we will get every little piece of the puzzle. Exactly who built the well is not important, Just that it was Jacob and MIB's people and happened about the time when there was iron and smart enough people to notice something. People have probably been on the island for as long as there there has been an island.

And I still like my theory that someone in the future knows what the heck the island really is and that if it destroyed, some EM shift will occur and the earth/universe will vanish (or the time line)
THEY were the ones who set the island in a bubble and it spins through time until someone can come up with a solution, or continue to find a guardian for it. Up until man was smart enough to be a danger it was safe but the likes of Widmore and Paik will endanger the use of the power in the island. The EM force/black hole/inter dimensional portal. Maybe the discovery of the ability to travel through time is the key or the problem.

#48. Posted by: berkyo at May 12, 2010 7:49 AM

I will agree this was not one of the better episodes. We know who Adam & Eve are. Cool, I always was on the wagon that they were husband and wife, we now know they are mother and son.

Claudia's death and Fmom's death were too predictable. I did think that Fmom would kill MIB, she did not. That actually surprised me a bit. The whole relationship is just jacked up, but that seems to be a commonality on this show.

We have been predicting that MIB is Esau, why not just tells us name people.

I agree too that the Russian to English transition in Red October was very well done. Love that movie. Learned last week that Tom Clancy is writing a new Jack Ryan novel. It is supposed to be out the end of the year.

#49. Posted by: onelostdude at May 12, 2010 7:52 AM

#46. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes
And I'm back to wondering what exactly is so evil about MIB?

Yes, He's a Shakespearean character.

#50. Posted by: berkyo at May 12, 2010 7:54 AM

Anyone else feel a little sorry for MIB when momma razed the village. I mean really, if that isn't enough for a millenia of therapy I don't know what is.

The water in the light - when I saw it I thought of the tea jacuzzi in the temple. It wasn't supposed to look like tea and would have healing powers.

When Ben was shot and Richard took him in he said that he would never be the same. Is this what happened to MIB on a much more monumental scale? By pushing him in Jacob actually made him into the monster that he is.

All the children actually born on the island seem to have some sort of special power (Ethan is super strong, MIB sees dead people, etc) but Jacob did not. He had to get it from his mother. That leaves plenty of room for Jack to take over if he could only find a few drops of that wine...

Drinking the wine seemed a bit much for me - too much like the Eucharist. Is this what the whole Last Supper poster was about?

So Jacob obviously made up his own game and came up with his own rules at this point. I suppose we get that in the remaining time. He made a deal with his brother on how he could get off the island, complete with impossible rules. Totally sucks to be MIB. Sucks even more to be in his way.

GIVE HIM A NAME ALREADY! Sorry, that really peeved me. It like they are trying to dehumanize him by not naming him. Annoying.

Namaste.

#51. Posted by: OtherKate at May 12, 2010 8:04 AM

Any hope I had for some kind of meaningful resolution to all the unanswered questions died last night when psycho-mom stated "every question and answer will simply lead to another question". In effect the writers are telling us that the six years of inane story lines and character build up means nothing, "give it a rest". This show went from brilliance in seasons 1-4 to contrived, pointless, psycho babble with religious undertones. With only 3 hours of show left, no matter how hard the writers try to clean up this mess (and it appears they don't care) it will come across as forced and ridiculous. Sorry, I must state the truth. When it comes to this show "the Emperor has no clothes"!

#52. Posted by: gables79 at May 12, 2010 8:05 AM

I preferred MIB. He had a questing mind, and examined things rather than just accepting them. When you discover your 'mom' has killed your REAL Mom, and lied to you most of your life - well, that's got to cause a family rift! And what's so bad about wanting to leave the island?

Jacob is just plain vanilla. Then he has a major over-reaction and floats MIB into Smokey-land.

Not as many answers as I'd like -- how did it all start? Are we just supposed to be satisfied with "there's always an island protector who somehow knows a lot of stuff, has unusual powers, and ultimately has to find a replacement"?

Magical glowing caves without more background are a bit thin.

Interesting episode, but I'm a little let down.

#53. Posted by: ebk at May 12, 2010 8:06 AM

I also wanted to say that all through season six I've been telling my friends to chill about not liking it. Things will come, they're too smart to screw it up, it's harder to come up with good answers rather than create interesting mysteries. They need to have faith in the writers.

After last night's episode I had a total John Locke moment. I've been had. A believing sucker. Season six simply cannot live up to my, or anyone else's, expectations. Quite a let-down. Darlton saying in their podcast that this would be 'Ab Aeterno' awesome set me up for quite a let down.

I'm not saying the finale won't be awesome and well done, but it just won't be the end-all be-all that we all crave so much.

No more negative nelly, I'll shut up and behave now. Just needed to vent.

#54. Posted by: OtherKate at May 12, 2010 8:14 AM

Oh, and MIB in the well - all sweaty and arms bulging and piercing blue eyes - made me really wish he didn't have to take on Locke's body. En fuego!

#55. Posted by: OtherKate at May 12, 2010 8:18 AM

I really feel for MIB. All he ever wanted from the time he was 13 was to leave the island and go "home" back to where "he came from." I think it's funny that him leaving would have had seemingly no negative consequences...up until the time Jacob decided to toss him into the light cave thereby making him evil incarnate. CJ Craig just didn't want to be lonely, so she made up lies to keep her sons (that she kidnapped from the mother she had murdered) close at hand. Stand up woman.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest we've seen all there is to see about the properties of the island, without any further explanation as to its origin and true power/purpose. The writers will leave it ambiguous IMO.
What I am interested as other posters have mentioned, is the centuries-long game that ensues between the brothers. To me, MIB's negativity towards man seemed forced in this episode. It just didn't fit his character...in fact his rant in the beach coversation with Jacob at the beginning of the season 6 finale was taken verbatim from mommy dearest...a woman he grew to distrust, despise, and eventually murder. Certainly, the more naive and Norman Batesesque Jacob would buy into mom's "man are bad, they corrupt, etc." point of view. The roles seem reversed for some reason.

#56. Posted by: Artz Vandelay at May 12, 2010 8:21 AM

The water in the light - when I saw it I thought of the tea jacuzzi in the temple. It wasn't supposed to look like tea and would have healing powers.

#51 the OtherKate

Was the Temple built on the site of that cave to protect it? I'm thinking the Temple and the other wells and the Lighthouse were built by people Jacob and MIB have brought to the island over the years. Jacob had his followers build the Temple to help protect the glowie water.

Did MIB suck up all the glowie power in the cave? Is that why the world is destroyed if he gets out?
Did Fmom bring Jacob and MIB to the island the way Jacob has brought people all these years? Was the lighthouse there maybe even back then that she could watch people?
Oh yeah asking questions only leads to more questions.
That said I think there is a lot more to this episode than it seemed on first viewing. I think in retrospect after multiple viewinngs and maybe after the finale we will find there is a lot more here than it initially seemed

Lastly the glowie water reminded me an aawful lot of the mysterious golden orb in Brisco County Jr. Another Carlton Cuse show...another genre (western as opposed to stranded on an island) show with sci-fi mystical overtones...
I loved that show but the whole orb thing always irritated me. It seemed too simplistic to just have this unexplained mysterious MacGuffin that drove the story. We were just supposed to accept this thing was powerful and special and everyone wanted it. I would have thought and I had hoped that Mr. Cuse would have learned from that and come up with something a little more thought out this time. But the glowie water just seems to be a liquified special version of the golden orb without any real explanation aas to why it exists or why it's so powerful. It just is. And everyone wants it.
Where's Bruce campbell when you need him?

#57. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 12, 2010 8:31 AM

Thanks Mac for a good review of a "so so" episode.

Like many of you, I'm not sure what to make from this episode either. I find it interesting that the Jacob we know is the "know all" and "end all" being who can make men do anything at his beckoning. I believe that whatever powers FMom possessed...protector of the island...Ultimate Survivor champion of all times...she knew she had something when she laid eyes on MIB when he was born. I saw her expression change as she looked at him...he was the Special one...he was the one that would replace her on the island. I think that is why she killed Claudia Mom. It wasn't about loneliness or insanity for that matter. She merely glanced over Jacob and her focus was on MIB. Having said that, find it peculiar that Jacob is the "good" one and the nice one and the "good listener" and would have fit perfectly into this destiny of his. When in fact, MIB was the "chosen one" and really didn't want anything to do with anything. You could say that Jacob had the "faith" and MIB bucked the system... That has to have some correlation to our present candidates and how they came to be chosen and who is ultimately the one to guard the island. Ultimately...confusing...

So, after the first "Others" killed the boar that the Island Twins were hunting, why the view of the men gutting it and removing what I assumed to be its heart? Significance of that...?

Also, Claudia gives birth on the island. Did we also get the question of why women can't give birth on the island, because when the Island Twins were born, things went terribly wrong and oh yeah...their birth mother died in birth...? I don't have anything...

#58. Posted by: Boodle at May 12, 2010 8:35 AM

Not sure if anybody noticed..but a few have asked how their mother killed all the people..when Jacob drags MIB into the light cave, he says "she is crazy, she burned them all"..the camp was set on fire, so I guess that's how she killed them all..

#59. Posted by: Jag at May 12, 2010 8:54 AM

I think there was significance in how MIB killed his mother by not letting her talk to him first (since she was supposedly immortal).

Agree that dagger appeared to be the same one offered to Sayid to kill FLocke.

The adoptive mom seemed to be a reluctant guardian of the light as if bound by some higher authority..always saying "I'm sorry" before causing some sort of mayhem. Also she appeared relieved when killed saying "thank you".

Jacob's game seems to be two fold: arranging people to come to the island to be the next candidate but also to prove his mom wrong that all men are evil in pursuit of the island source for their own gain (calls into question Widmore's motives).

#60. Posted by: mjs at May 12, 2010 9:06 AM

So I've been giving this episode more thought. I still stand by my initial conclusions, but I want to go a little deeper into the distinction between my criticisms of the episode and my enjoyment of the content. (It's quite possible I'm the only one who cares about this distinction.)

Oddly, what didn't work for me episode-wise is that we saw *too* much. Even in a similar episode, like "Ab Aeterno," we were still on the outside looking in. We experienced the island and its mysteries through the eyes of Alpert.

And if you go back even further, back to the days of Dharma videos and Dr. Marvin Candle, we experienced *those* revelations through the eyes of our established characters.

Yet, here, we're observing much of this from an enlightened perspective. We actually see and know more than the major characters do now. *We* know about the Mystical Cave than Jack et al do, right? Perhaps what has worked so well is that our relative cluelessness about the show walked in parallel with the characters' cluelessness. But this episode wasn't structured like that.

Anyway, it's all a minor quibble in the grand scheme of things. The show will refocus on our core characters over the final episodes.

Now, as for content, I do think it's worth noting (as others already have) that the answers we're receiving are intriguing and unexpected. Think of the Smoke Monster reveal: MIB is Flocke, Flocke is Smokey, MIB is Jacob's twin, and Smokey was created *by* Jacob's actions. That's a pretty compelling path. And we've had others, too: Dharma, the hatches, Adam and Eve, the Black Rock, the whispers (I know some didn't like that reveal, but I was good with it), the island puts a cork on evil ... I'd say all have been handled quite well.

Also, I'm betting -- and hoping -- that Mega Questions like "what is the island and who put it there?" will remain unanswered. Darlton have repeatedly pointed to the midichlorians debacle in "Phantom Menance" as something they want to avoid, and I'm happy they feel that way. It's important to not overexplain things that don't need explaining. And I know they've also used the question "is it important to the characters?" as a guide for answering questions. My issue with this episode -- and perhaps my perspective will change when all is said and done -- is that this diversion *wasn't* driven by that simple question. Interesting, sure, but essential? I don't know about that.

#61. Posted by: mac at May 12, 2010 9:07 AM

All the comments about religion/religious overtones got me to thinking. In the scene where FMom was giving the wine to Jacob, she said something like "take this cup" which is similar to what Jesus prayed in the Garden before he was crucified. "If it is possible, may this cup be taken from me". Which makes me wonder if FMom was tired of her role, ready to go and was asking Jacob to take her burden. She did thank MIB for killing her, after all. I know that may have been obvious to you smarties, but it just occured to me.
And for all you Epi-haters, those who think things have gone downhill or that the plots are contrived, you have good reason to think so. However, I am really hoping that at the end all of us who defend even the cheesiest plot will be able to give a hearty "told ya so!". That every scene and plot point, not matter how contrived, will have had a purpose and that everything will make sense.
Probably won't happen, though. :)

#62. Posted by: Amyr at May 12, 2010 9:11 AM

"what is the island and who put it there?" is something that doesn't need explaining? Are you serious Mac? That is the central question of this entire series!

#63. Posted by: gables79 at May 12, 2010 9:23 AM

I liked this epi. We got a lot of answers. It was an absolute neccesary episode even though it was not the best of the season.

I don't think Jacob violated the rules by putting MIB into the light cave. Mother said it wouldn't 'kill' whoever went into. They even got into a fight when MIB left, Jacob beat him bloody. In fact, it seems Jacob always has the upper hand in thier altercations.

I was pretty surprised with the Adam and Eve reveal. That's something we've been waiting for for SO long!

I definitely have my issues with the episode, but I'm trying to remain positive. With 1 episode and the finale left. I feel like they have to wrap it all up some kind of way, and it might not always be as incrediable as we're expecting.

#64. Posted by: HurleysTHEOne at May 12, 2010 9:25 AM

I'm relatively new to this blog but have loved it ever since I discovered it. Great theories, questions and critiques. That said, I have an idea that may have been tossed around on here before. If so, forgive me. But could it be that this island is the equivalent of the Garden of Eden? What made me think of this is when MiB spoke of theories and ideas that he and his adopted village were discovering. In other words, the fruit of knowledge/sin that made him want to leave the island. So the Adam and Eve analogy - though it turns out to be mother and adopted son, may be a bit of a teaser.

Crispy@57 and Cecil@ 45 I was thinking the same thing about the temple. Jacob decided to have a temple built over the source to protect it.

A few other things that jumped out at me:

-MiB plunged the knife in FMom's back before she was able to utter a word
-Could it be that Jacob is/was also able to transform into a a smoke monster? All along we assumed that only MiB could do this, but who says that Jacob can't/couldn't (probably FMom too)? In which case, the different smoke monster encounters that had different outcomes may have been such because of who (Jacob or MiB) transformed into the smoke monster (a long shot, I know)

Overall, I wasn't sure how to take this episode. It answered questions and raised a bunch of new ones. FMom was Jacob before Jacob came along - i.e. the custodian of the light. And I can only assume that someone else had the job before her.

#65. Posted by: Paul_C at May 12, 2010 9:31 AM

@gables79: That's where we're going to differ. I don't think the island is the key -- it's what the characters do on it, who they become, etc. But that's my perspective.

I think the island is simply the mysterious stage all of this stuff happens on. The show itself -- and this is something Darlton have said repeatedly -- is fundamentally about the characters.

I know I draw connections to Battlestar all the time, but there's a reason. That show was also character driven. Sure, it had space battles and robots and all that, but ultimately it was about a band of people trying to find their place (literally and figuratively).

Moreover, if we ever received an actual answer to "what is the island and who put it there?" I'd guess most would be deeply disappointed. To me, the ambiguity around the island makes it far more compelling. It simply is this thing that somehow connects with energy, time, destiny, fate, science and faith. I think a core part of the series -- and something that may play out in the finale -- is that an acceptance of the unknown is the key to moving forward. Just look at Jack! He's more grounded and useful now that he's going *with* the unknown.

Anyway, this will quickly devolve into a debate about science and faith and I'm far too stupid to offer anything useful in that regard. So I'll just leave it at this: I don't want to know everything.

#66. Posted by: mac at May 12, 2010 9:32 AM

The ep was meh. At best. And I’m being kind.

Review excellent, succinct, descriptive, nicely captured all the salient points.

It all still reeks of Deus ex Machina. Or, as Terry Pratchet wrote, “A wizard did it.”

Where’d the light come from? Where’d CJ Craig come from? Who told her what the light was or what happens to you if you go into it? Where’d she get that jug of Muscatel? And Jacob’s still drinking it years later? Don’t that stuff get vinegar-y? Is that its point, that it’s a “magic” elixir, the “blood” of Christ? Take this cup and drink it? All that was missing was the word “from.” All by herself she fills in the Donkey Wheel Well and wipes out an entire village of Sand People…I mean Others? She can do all that but can’t whomp up a bar of soap or a bottle of shampoo?

Jack’s autopsy skills are seriously lacking if he says Adam and Eve have only been there 20-30 years…but maybe if they have some immortality in their bones they could appear to be decomposing (like Mozart) at a much much much much slower rate? But then why would MIB be immortal-ish? He didn’t drink the Kool-Aid. My disbelief is not only suspended, it’s expelled.

They set up “rules” and then they immediately break them. Can’t hurt each other? Jacob’s smackdown(s) on MIB looked pretty painful to me.

And speaking of MIB, give that guy a friggin’ name already. That ship has sailed, the time for “suspense” is over.

Can’t leave the island? There is nothing/nowhere else? That’s just so Obi-wan’s “…from a certain point of view…” Poor writing. Pathetic.

Very Garden of Eden though. It’s perfect and wonderful here...you have everything you need to be happy here…don’t eat that fruit…don’t open that box… Then that darn Free Will thing pops up its ugly head.

Such an opportunity wasted. I was supremely disappointed with what they could’ve done versus what they did.

As was stated above, "The Emperor has no clothes." Got any fences need white-washing? I am so in the market for a bridge...

But, on the other hand, the Black Hawks won.

#67. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 12, 2010 9:32 AM

i don't think smokey is just "the evil part of MIB" that was rejected by the light. I think it's a lucifer parallel (and maybe a little icarus)... the jealous act of striving to get too close to the light corrupts and scars your soul. we all have a bit of god's light inside of us, but the light in its pure form, at its source, is so blindingly good and beautiful that merely being in its presence would destroy us.

but i think it's a fate "worse than death" because we're forbidden to experience the pure beauty and knowledge that the light in its purist form represents - once you've experienced a taste of it, jealousy (the darkness that is also in each of us) consumes you when you're denied its presence for the rest of eternity.

because MIB has briefly been in the presence of the light, if even for a moment, it gives him extraordinary powers and knowledge... but he's consumed with rage and jealousy because he was unable to remain in its presence and will never experience it again. in his act of trying to be ALL light, he lost whatever light was inside him to begin with. of course, in this instance he got too close to the light against his will (jacob tossed him in there), but he was trying to do it himself anyway.

Think about this - Lucifer (from the latin lucem ferre), literally means "light-bearer." I think the parallels are pretty striking.

MIB the man "died" .. but smokey is still MIB, it's just his immortal soul that, like Lucifer, was cast out of "heaven" and denied the light's presence for all eternity for his crime.

#68. Posted by: rich at May 12, 2010 9:38 AM

A lot to say All you nay sayers.

As Hurley would say - Sucks to be you dude!

We finally gets answers and all we see here is negativity.

MIB and Jacob are raised by another.

I can't even continue now... I will join up later in the day.

#69. Posted by: Revelation at May 12, 2010 9:59 AM

@mac: Okay, I can agree with your character's first angle which is why I find this season to be all the more unsettling. For example, Linus was an integral character for 5 seasons yet this year has been virtually non-existent. The Kwons spent three "virtual" years looking for each other. They ultimately find each other and the meaning of true love and devotion only to be written off in what appeared to be a meaningless death scene. What are we to learn from that?
For years Sayid's tortured soul character was fascinating to watch and one of my favorites yet his redemptive(good conquers evil)moment climaxes in a hurried blow him up scene. Just seems like all the character development invested in the first 4-5 seasons is going for naught. Frankly, were it not for the interesting comments and plot analysis on this blog I probably would have bailed on this show years ago.

#70. Posted by: gables79 at May 12, 2010 10:04 AM

great recap mac, your a rock star!!!!

@mac i totally agree about wanting to know how jacob came to be the jacob of today. those were almost my exact thoughts as i was watching the story unfold.

and i actually kinda liked the 13th warrior :)

namaste!!!

#71. Posted by: tiffani at May 12, 2010 10:05 AM

@revelation: Just because we are all not joyously drinking the Kool-Aid doesn't make as negative or naysayers. Most of the "negative" comments here call for a return to the earlier seasons. I for one enjoy reading the contrasting views and have been informed by both sides of the argument.

#72. Posted by: gables79 at May 12, 2010 10:08 AM


ANTLTET???

Anyone Notice the Latin to English Translation???

#73. Posted by: Three Men and a Baby (I counted Hugo twice...) at May 12, 2010 10:09 AM

In the scene when we first meet Jacob and MIB they are on the beach and Jacob has "called" another ship to the island. It is MIB who quotes his mother "they come, they corrupt, they destroy, it all ends the same". Why would MIB say this if he has defaulted from his mother and joined his people instead? Also is this scene before or after MIB death and change into smokey?

I think it is after, think about it. Why does MIB want to kill Jacob? Why is Jacob calling people to the island if he believes his mother that no one exists outside the island.

Also why does Jacob no longer age beyond this point? Come to think of it, his mother never aged either. Perhaps once you become the protector you don't age. Also, he gives powers to Richard to never age either. There is still some untold part to this story. Maybe they will reveal more next week.

#74. Posted by: BEMH at May 12, 2010 10:15 AM

&&&&&&&&&&& Show winding down questions I need help answering!!!! &&&&&&&&&&&&

1) Can anyone tell me why/how Dr.P.Chang's arm is fake? Did we ever see that?

2) Did we ever get an answer or more follow up to the Ben and his little girlfriend from childhood storyline?

&&&&&&&&& thanks for the help! &&&&&&&&&

#75. Posted by: Mr.Naysayer at May 12, 2010 10:15 AM

It wasn't until Ilana showed Locke's body to Frank that we realized Locke was dead and the "Locke" walking around was the smoke monster impersonating him. We've now seen Jacob's brother's body. Ergo Jacob's brother is dead and the "Man In Black" walking around is the smoke monster impersonating him.

The Smoke Monster was around long before Jacob was born. We've seen Egyptian cave enscriptions of the smoke monster which obviously must have been made long before Claudia came to the island. This is what's so important about them speaking English - it's giving us a time reference.

When Jacob threw his brother into the cave/waterfall he was killed by the smoke monster. This is "worse than death" because the smoke monster doesn't just kill you, it steals your form and your memories and traps your soul on the island forever. Ghost Michael alluded to this when he visited Hurley this season and we saw evidence of its "scanning" your memories when Eko first encountered the monster.

The Smoke Monster appears to be the embodiment of death or something along those lines and only the island's guardians can keep it from escaping - a team which now consists of Jack, Sawyer, and Hurley. This is why, as early as episode 1, the smoke monster took on the form of Christian Shepherd and tried to lure Jack off into the jungle (in the hopes that he'd be killed by the Others or one of Rousseau's traps or a boar). This is why he took on the form of Dave and tried to convince Hurley to jump off a cliff. And this is why he took on the form of Alex Rousseau and convinced Ben to help him kill Jacob.

#76. Posted by: Harley R. Pageot at May 12, 2010 10:16 AM

I thought the old lady was speaking Latin, and Claudia was speaking Spanish or something, but then they both seemed to be communicating so perhaps they were both speaking Spanish? Or maybe they just sounded similar enough she could answer the "What's your name" question.

Was Smokey contained, and only let out when MIB's body was shoved in there? Is that why no one was supposed to go, because it gave a human form to "Evil"?
If this is the case, then how was Claudia appearing to MIB?

#77. Posted by: BostonSteve at May 12, 2010 10:16 AM

Perhaps crazy momma was already a 'smoke monster' - that's how she destroyed the village?

So many parallels - Ben killing the Dharma village, Claire/ Claudia having children on the Island - with 'other' people trying/succeeding to steal them. Are Claire and Jack the new Jacob/ MIB?

What is the signficance of Des saying to Jack, 'see you in another life, brutha'. Are they somehow brothers?

And yes - Hurley and Miles and their ability to see/ hear dead people. How is it related to MIB?

I for one enjoyed the episode. The history of the island, its mysticism...the fact that it still didn't really answer any question except who is buried there and that Jacob and MIB are brothers...

#78. Posted by: TS at May 12, 2010 10:16 AM

OK - this is what I'm talking about. We all think about this episode in different ways - and what are we doing - really digging in deep with different ideas. I love this - it helps me in so many ways.

A big thanks to Mac for stirring the pot.

#79. Posted by: dk at May 12, 2010 10:20 AM

It's strange that this episode was all about mommies! Maybe there are so many "daddy issues" with our own characters because there was no daddy for Jacob and MIB. Crazy Moms and Abusive Dads. CMAD!

#80. Posted by: sandivon at May 12, 2010 10:37 AM

@75 Mr.Naysayer (what a name for now!) asked:

>1) Can anyone tell me why/how Dr.P.Chang's arm is fake? Did we ever see that?

Chang's arm was crushed in "The Incident" by collapsing construction materials.


>2) Did we ever get an answer or more follow up to the Ben and his little girlfriend from childhood storyline?

Nothing yet. 2 shows to go.

#81. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 12, 2010 10:40 AM

Did anyone catch adoptive mom's name? I didn't, and I find it odd that there are now two names we don't know.

#82. Posted by: LostInConnecticut at May 12, 2010 10:45 AM

The two young brothers were very cute kids and I think young Jacob was cast to look like adult Jacob spot on! I think their acting was also good.

It cracked me up when young MIB aksed "what's dead?" and then they proceed to kill a boar! Furthermore, if the island is all there is, how do they even know what the definition of an island is? Why don't they just call the island the world?

#83. Posted by: BEMH at May 12, 2010 10:48 AM

Ok a few convoluted thoughts.

1. I thought it was weird that MIB looked decidedly more buff than Jacob, yet it seemed as though Jacob had no trouble dragging him to the magical cave, overpowering him, and knocking him out. Maybe once he drank Momma's Special Wine, he was imbued with abnormal strength, in addition to eternal life? Since Momma already had the super strength, that is how she was able to slaughter the entire village.

2. Also, the more I'm thinking about it, the more it seems as though the "Jacob" and the "MIB" that we know now are just shadows of their former selves.

As mac pointed out, Jacob has gone through a major transformation from innocent/naieve/dull -----> the savvy/omnicient/smirky island protector. Likewise, MIB has gone from questioning/open-minded/curious ------> homicidal rainclous (to use mac's words).

What if the wine drinking and cave entering they did infused them each with supernatual/otherwordly qualities. But they retained some of their own "selves" - enough to still be considered brothers. But now, instead of just a quarrel between brothers, they represent the struggle between good and evil. (Or whatever you want to call the 2 sides.)

Did any of that make sense at all?

#84. Posted by: Christin at May 12, 2010 10:49 AM

LONG POST ALERT

I'm one of the seemingly many people that have followed this blog for a very long time yet have never posted. It's been about three years for me personally.

I post now for two reasons; the first is to thank the many insightful and diligent posters here that have added so much to my experience in watching Lost and opened up many doors that may have remained shut without the discussion.

The second is to give my two cents on how I feel the series is coming together and has been structured.

In my opinion, as much as it has been difficult to link different "phases" in the show together as logical progressions (i.e. pre hatch times, when the castaways lived in the hatch and pushed the button, the intro to hydra island, time travelling, sideways world, etc.) there has always been a huge focus on both character development but also certain themes that have applied to multiple characters.

One of the themes that I'm referring to is how Jack was always somewhat of a blind leader that was extremely compulsive and at times, short sighted. Jack has evolved to a certain degree beyond that but Sawyer has now become very much like Jack used to be (and some may say still is).

Possibly the most prominent theme that applies to multiple characters is the lack of parental direction and at some times, complete disasters when it came to father/son, father/daughter, mother/son relations. Jack, Locke, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley and even lesser characters like Boone and Shannon had parental issues.

A few people had mentioned how they were dissapointed that there was a good portion of the episode last night that included child actors and maybe focused too much on Jacob and MIB's childhood. I personally thought it really kept in the theme of filling us in on the childhood dysfunction of the characters in this show and also helping to show us why the grown up versions of these characters had certain compulsions and character flaws that affect the overall plot of the show.

I thought this was all useful and very interesting. The fact is that while I agree that knowing how the rules came about (especially when it comes to what circumstances have to exist for MIB to leave the island) and how the lists were created, etc, I feel that there were some pretty huge reveals that came out that most/all of us have been waiting for.

We now KNOW that Jacob and MIB were brothers, how they came to the island, what caused their initial fight and the reason MIB hated Jacob so much, how MIB became the smoke monster, and who Adam and Eve were. I feel like I probably missed some but when it comes to Lost, to have ALL that revealed in one episode isn't bad.

Like many have said, I'm trying not to get too high or low until the series is over because none of us know how this will end and what will/won't be answered by the time the end comes.

I personally think it will be more productive to enjoy the ride, appreciate the tie-ins and answers that we do get and hope that the ending is both satisfing while we watch, but one that upholds the legacy that we all hope remains in tact once the show is over.

#85. Posted by: Luke at May 12, 2010 11:07 AM

Wow! While I certainly felt there was lots of meh with this episode, I have to say that some people here are having way too over-the-top reactions to it. It's really not that bad of an episode - I can't see how anyone could actually hate it.

In any case - while there are certainly shortcomings that can be discussed, there are other interesting things to ponder. Don't be blindsided.

@32. Posted by: Owen
re: good/evil

Is anyone getting the feeling that the show is pointing towards existential nihilism? The message I took from this was that whoever becomes guardian of the light can make up their own rules. That is to say - they have considerable influence in guiding the light via what they think is right. It goes without saying that interpretation can be flawed.

FMom - Was she a genius with regards to the nature of humanity, or was she just a crackpot with lots of power (who is in denial that she suffers from many of the same flaws)?

In many ways, is this not a modern take on the gods of antiquity, who were never perfect all knowing beings, but were subject to the various flaws that humanity suffered from?

FMom does what she thinks is right, and we've seen these themes echo and repeat throughout the show. It will never make sense because there simply is no universal answer.


@33. Posted by: dennis
re: how to rig explosives

I think we are to assume that MIB picked up this info when he scans people. We clearly has access to the memories of certain dead people - why not their knowledge? Furthermore - this episode clearly establishes that MIB is a very smart cookie. He either senses or creates an early version of backgammon. Through his determination to leave the island, he comes up with a way to harness the powers of the light and water via a donkey wheel!


@34. Posted by: christina
re: "The light was the 'heart' of the island and now it's in HIM so of course he cannot leave."

My interpretation was that the light is the essence of all life, and that is it is a part of every single living thing (similar to the Force from SW). As such, it was always a part of him, just like it is a part of everyone. The problem, as FMom notes, is that people always want more! The light is not the reason as to why Flocke can't leave - it is the rules of FMom, carried over by Jacob, that restrict him. Hence his desire to kill Jacob and all Candidates - he believes it will negate the rules that he has been subjected to. Flocke believes that the rules are BS that a crazy lady came up with.


@35. Posted by: jack
re: I think there is a lot to get out of this episode

I agree. Whether you agree with the direction or not, I'd like to still work on what this is all moving towards.

After watching this episode, all I could think about was Widmore.
Is he the big bad that FMom described - is he totally in it so as to harness the powers of the light? Is Desmond the key to harnessing this power? Is Widmore similar to FMom - ie the belief that the supreme good (that is somewhat flawed or ambiguous at best) trumps everything else?


@36. Posted by: Revelation
"MIB was wronged in many ways, he may be evil to us, but we know not what he has been through"

Can't this same case be made for all the people that have been slaughtered on the island? He's simply doing what his FMom taught him - kill the people that you think are baddies.

"The well with the Donkey wheel was an inconstancy though. when it was filled up following Lockes decent and the ensuing flash, the well top was intact. it was destroyed in this episode."

It has already been established that there are multiple wells on the island. It is also possible that the actual donkey wheel well gets built elsewhere, though not too likely. In any case - no inconsistency - wasn't that well filled up during the Dharma years? I guess we are to assume that when the new born smokey figures himself out, he either gets back to work himself, or more likely, he influences the Egyptians who land on the island to do the dirty work.

"Mom Lies big time. Death is something MIB boy will not have to worry about. Tell it to his bones mom!!!"

I think the problem lies with the definition of "dead" and "alive".
MIB no longer inhabits his body, but he certainly is not dead in the sense that we understand that word. Very subject to philosophical interpretation.


@38. Posted by: Revelation
"MIB said that HE (Jacob) was the devil and that he took my body and my humanity.
MIB did not say he LOST anything."

I'm not really looking for literal truth from a guy who lies when it suits his purposes. MIB failed to mention that the cause and effect of what happened. "The devil" did what he did in reaction to the loss of his mother. He acted on emotion, much like MIB acted on emotion when he stabbed FMom. Totally like the gods of antiquity.


@41. Posted by: flambe moi
re: "So who finished creating the Frozen Donkey Wheel machine?"

As mentioned, my guess would be that smokey influences other island survivors to take up the mantle again. I'd guess that he then finds out that he still can't leave, due to the rules. Plan B becomes - kill the rule makers!


@42. Posted by: jaybee
re: "the rules"

"I guess we all wanted some kind of benevolent, omniscient being in charge - and instead it seems like we've got a couple of big kids who pass the time by pulling the wings and legs off of helpless insects.
Yeah, that's depressing. (And gross.) I think this episode just didn't do enough for me so late in the game."

Nihilism is totally depressing. But like I said - think of it more in the context of the gods of antiquity. Think of all the power struggles they always had, and how Zeus was a rapist, etc.


@45. Posted by: Cecil
re: Temple Water

This is totally the case. The light is the essence of life - it can heal, and it can also bring people back. As FMom stated - exposure to this power has mixed results. MIB becomes smokey, Sayid becomes a Zombie, and Ben wasn't exactly the nicest guy we've ever known.

@46. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes
re: "And I'm back to wondering what exactly is so evil about MIB?"

There is plenty of evil in him. There is also plenty of good in him.
He is realistic. The best type of monster is the one you sympathize with!
Ever watch Dexter?


@58. Posted by: Boodle
re: Claudia gives birth on the island

I wonder if the problem with birth on the island was put into play when MIB made contact with the light and became Smokey. This trauma thus gets passed on and on and on. Not sure why it is inconsistent though. Why was Horace able to conceive?


@59. Posted by: Jag
re: how their mother killed all the people

Yes - fire killed many of them. But are we to believe that they all slept through it and just burned to death? Did the camp have no night watch? Also - we saw dead bodies outside of the huts, and not burnt. Did she engage in hand to hand combat with these warriors? No matter what - really fishy as to what powers she has to be able to do this. Based on evidence, one almost has to assume that she turned into a smokey and offed them.

I'm much more at a loss with how she collapsed and covered the well. How long was MIB unconscious for? Did she maybe keep some of the warriors alive, have them burry the well, then kill them?


@60. Posted by: mjs
re: reluctant guardian of the light

It seems that eventually, all guardians are like Desmond in the Hatch - they crave a replacement. FMom knew her time was up, and was happy to move on. The same can be said about Jacob, who pretty much egged Ben into stabbing him.


@61. Posted by: mac
re: "best left unanswered"

I totally agree with much of what you said. I think you need to keep in mind how this episode is the pseudo source for the repetitions of character flaws/decisions that we continually see. It doesn't go so far to explain all of the why's, but gives some perspective to the repetitive themes.


@63. Posted by: gables79
re: ""what is the island and who put it there?" is something that doesn't need explaining? Are you serious Mac? That is the central question of this entire series!"

No - it isn't. But if it really helps in your quest, the answer is 42.
I would point out that you really do not understand the question. ;)


@69. Posted by: Revelation
re: As Hurley would say - Sucks to be you dude!

LoL!

Anyways - this is as far as I have made it for now. Will continue at a later point!

For all of you who are really cheesed off, I'm just glad I'm not in your shoes!

#86. Posted by: shikotee at May 12, 2010 11:25 AM

GRAA, Mac. I agree with you on the "origins of the Island" thing. The Island is a MacGuffin, plain and simple. I would rather not have all the answers. FMom's remark that each answer would lead to more questions isn't just a cop-out by the writers or a nod to the fans clamoring for more revelations; it's a statement about the nature of the universe. We'll never have all the answers.

Also, I thought "Inglorious Basterds" handled the subtitles-to-English transition pretty well in that scene at the farm house.

#87. Posted by: James at May 12, 2010 11:31 AM

GRAA, Mac. I agree with you on the "origins of the Island" thing. The Island is a MacGuffin, plain and simple. I would rather not have all the answers. FMom's remark that each answer would lead to more questions isn't just a cop-out by the writers or a nod to the fans clamoring for more revelations; it's a statement about the nature of the universe. We'll never have all the answers.

Also, I thought "Inglorious Basterds" handled the subtitles-to-English transition pretty well in that scene at the farm house.

#88. Posted by: James at May 12, 2010 11:31 AM

GRAA Mac! This episode wasn't...I don't know what it wasn't, but it definitely wasn't. I didn't care for Allison Janney's portrayal which might account for my feelings.

We already figured out at least two of the things that were revealed last night: 1. They are twins...and TPTB don't have to tell us that MIB's name is Esau because we figured that out when we figured they were twins. 2. When MIB told us that Jacob took his body and that his mother was crazy, I think many of us figured Mom & MIB were Adam and Eve.

I think they did a fine job of impressing upon us that there is no such thing as a purely evil person or a purely good person. A fundamentally decent person is capable of doing terrible things. We've seen it illustrated over and over again from the pilot episode to last night's episode.

The designation of evil comes when one pursues their own interest at the expense of others.

I don't think Mom was lying to her sons when she said they can not leave the island. It's rather like saying "We cannot drop a nuclear bomb"....Well, of course we can! But the consequences of that act would be so catastrophic, so far reaching, so soul annihilating that it is actually accurate to express the caution as, "We can not drop a nuclear bomb." That's what I think Mom was saying.

I think Jacob's glass of wine with Mom was simply a ceremonial gesture to mark the moment Mom passed eternal life to her son. By eternal I mean Jacob will not die a natural death, same as his Mom. That is why she thanked MIB, she said earlier that she was tired; MIB released her from her mortal coil.

Questions: How did Mom destroy the village and fill in that hole by herself?

Am I to believe that a bunch of shipwrecked people in the year 23AD decided to harness the glowing cavern magnetic power with a wheel to get them off that island? WTF! This I do not like.

Over all I'd say this episode was so-so but I'm not mad. Looking forward to next week!

#89. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 11:31 AM

Long Post Alert:

I have found the two best Season 6 episodes to date are the ones not focused on the main characters, Ab Aeterno and Across the Sea. Why? They focus on the island history and events - - - the only clues to what our 2007 castaways are up against in the finale.

Not that I have qualms, concerns and tongue biting continuity errors on the overall story structure at this point, but my initial observations are:

1. I got no religious overtones in this episode. I thought the wine to Jacob was casting (or unlocking) a magic spell so Jacob could "know" everything about the island and its properties. He was enlightened at that point, giving CrazyMom her opportunity to cease being guardian.

2. CrazyMom passing the guardianship to Jacob was the only reason why MIB could kill her, for which she thanked him. If this is SOP, then Jacob already passed on the island guardianship to another person before being killed by Ben.

3. One main issue I have is that the EM life force was stable in the cave at the surface of the island. There was no reason to confine it in the Hatch, or have a release computer code. Also, if anyone came in direct contact with the light, they should have also turned into Smoke Monsters (that means Ben and Locke turning the FDW).

4. If the life force embodies life, death, and rebirth, then I do not see how mortal man could transform it into healing temple water (unless the death of MIB was the change allowing the guardian to control its properties.) I got the impression that CrazyMom and Jacob's powers were different than the light force. But again, if this is Star Wars . . .

5. People looking for a time frame for this episode, I think the only real clue was Claudia, her dress and appearance. I think she represents Claudia Quinta, a Roman leader of the Cult of the Great Mother, circa 205 BC. (There is a National Art Gallery painting of her). She was instrumental in bringing ashore Cybele, the Roman goddess of fertility, earth, caves and mountains to Rome from Greece. It is from 210 BC to 30 BC when the world had the three great civilizations still in place (Egyptian, Greek and Roman). I think this is where hieroglyphs, Greek symbols and Latin can converge on the island.

6. I think we got confirmation about the Rules. There are no set Rules. The one in charge (the guardian) sets the rules. As MIB told young Jacob, he can make up the rules of the game when he is in charge. (Note: I think the game they played was not backgammon or senet, because Jacob was moving pieces in zig zag fashion.) The principle is simple: whoever is in power sets the rules.

7. Which leads to the strange behavior of Jacob. If it is true that he continues to bring people to the island (like CrazyMom did to find her successor by shipwrecks), as a demi-god why did he need people to build temples or Dharma stations? Likewise, why would he need to leave the island to recruit in order to protect it? Besides, that would prove MIB was right: there was something across the sea. But maybe bringing people to the island for centuries was all Jacob's cruel, new game with his brother, that "lowly people" are bad and their CrazyMom was right.

8. I also thought that "across the sea" could have used as a metaphor. It could mean across the galaxy, the plane of existence, the after life or dimensions. I also thought that in the explanation of the life force pool, "time travel" was not referenced as danger.

9. I also thought CrazyMom was like a lighthouse keeper. Isolated, alone, but with a specific important job to do, one that apparently she was either chosen or manipulated into taking. She called the shipwreck survivors "people," like it was a derogatory term. I infer that she may once have been human, but here enlightenment changed her being into a semi-god status. She was probably tricked into becoming the guardian. She needed to trick someone to take her place, and children are easier to manipulate. Only when she could confer her powers onto another being (like Jacob), could her job be complete and she could pass on (to next life, rebirth, etc.)

10. Now, the biggest issue: the mysterious children that have popped up around Flocke all season. I have counted three different children (the blond jungle boy, a dark skinned boy at the temple, and a tall boy in the jungle.) Based on this episode, the blond hair boy appears to be a young Jacob. The tall boy would not be MIB. We have seen ghost Jacob in adult form speaking to Hurley, why would there be a need for a young ghost Jacob to bug Flocke? If so, this confirms Jacob can make multiple apparitions like MIB-Smokey.

#90. Posted by: welh at May 12, 2010 11:32 AM

At the end of episode 14, Flocke said he was going to finish what he started. Although I think Flocke is probably still planning to go back to the well and kill Desmond, this weeks episode created another possibility. Maybe Flocke plans to dig a hole in the right place, make a donkey wheel and leave that way. [Is the old donkey wheel, which maybe Jacob used for his excursions still around?]

I wonder if we will ge more MIB and Jacob backstory. We know MIB has taken his old physical form after his death. He appeard to Ricardo in the form of his old self. In another past episode he told Jacob he would kill him some day (I assume that was also after MIB's death). How did his ability to take the form of his old body come about? Why does MIB need the remaining candidiates to agree to leave with him?

It seems like the real danger to the world is not so much that MIB will run around the world killing people if he leaves the island. He just wants to leave the island and using people in various ways, including killing them, is just a mean to an end. Possibly the real danger is that if Flocke succeeds, the light will be left unguarded and will be vulnerable to the likes of Widmore and other men who seek to control the light for their own selfish purposes.

MIB is something of an enigma. Raised in a "pure" environment of sorts with Jacob and his adoptive mother, he views people of the world as selfish and greedy. This suggests he has an understanding of a better way of life. However, his concern for living according to these higher standards is not a priority. His purpose in life is singular, to get off the island.

Although recognized late by his adoptive mother, Jacob is the perfect person for his role. He is unquestioning (to the point of seeming a little dull) allowing for his role to also be singular, to guard the light until he can be replaced. It would appear that he became much more sophisticated over the years however, possibly following his brother's design for the donkey wheel and using it to alter the lives of potential candidates. At the end of the day, Jacob is actually quite brilliant.

Last week I speculated that Desmond may gather the Losties in the altverse in one place and that Daniel Faraday might do something like use a nuke to merge the two universes. I'm wondering now if it could be something slightly different. Possibly Daniel will get into something that would be the opposite of a nuke like anti-matter. I think there's going to be some far out scientific event to merge the two.

#91. Posted by: Mike at May 12, 2010 11:33 AM

At the end of episode 14, Flocke said he was going to finish what he started. Although I think Flocke is probably still planning to go back to the well and kill Desmond, this weeks episode created another possibility. Maybe Flocke plans to dig a hole in the right place, make a donkey wheel and leave that way. [Is the old donkey wheel, which maybe Jacob used for his excursions still around?]

I wonder if we will ge more MIB and Jacob backstory. We know MIB has taken his old physical form after his death. He appeard to Ricardo in the form of his old self. In another past episode he told Jacob he would kill him some day (I assume that was also after MIB's death). How did his ability to take the form of his old body come about? Why does MIB need the remaining candidiates to agree to leave with him?

It seems like the real danger to the world is not so much that MIB will run around the world killing people if he leaves the island. He just wants to leave the island and using people in various ways, including killing them, is just a mean to an end. Possibly the real danger is that if Flocke succeeds, the light will be left unguarded and will be vulnerable to the likes of Widmore and other men who seek to control the light for their own selfish purposes.

MIB is something of an enigma. Raised in a "pure" environment of sorts with Jacob and his adoptive mother, he views people of the world as selfish and greedy. This suggests he has an understanding of a better way of life. However, his concern for living according to these higher standards is not a priority. His purpose in life is singular, to get off the island.

Although recognized late by his adoptive mother, Jacob is the perfect person for his role. He is unquestioning (to the point of seeming a little dull) allowing for his role to also be singular, to guard the light until he can be replaced. It would appear that he became much more sophisticated over the years however, possibly following his brother's design for the donkey wheel and using it to alter the lives of potential candidates. At the end of the day, Jacob is actually quite brilliant.

Last week I speculated that Desmond may gather the Losties in the altverse in one place and that Daniel Faraday might do something like use a nuke to merge the two universes. I'm wondering now if it could be something slightly different. Possibly Daniel will get into something that would be the opposite of a nuke like anti-matter. I think there's going to be some far out scientific event to merge the two.

#92. Posted by: Mike at May 12, 2010 11:34 AM

Oh, and a note on the MIB=Esau thing. His name may indeed be Esau (although I do not expect that to be revealed), but if we're going to draw a parallel to the biblical account, MIB is actually the Jacob in this scenario. The biblical Jacob was the second to emerge from his mother and, although the older son (Esau) would have been the one to receive his father's blessing and birthright, his mother favored Jacob and successfully conspired to have that blessing and birthright bestowed upon the younger twin.

#93. Posted by: James at May 12, 2010 11:39 AM

OK, my problem with the this week's show is that I do not think it moved the story ahead. Richard's show gave us his motivations, but this one showed us mostly what we knew about the characters.
I disagree that the smoke monster existed because of the Eygption stuff, we did not see any of that on the island, and the boys would have had questions about it.
But I also wonder if the fmom did not enter the cave and that's how she knew it was bad to do so. Was she the smoke monster first, well that would explain how she filled the well and killed the people. But doesn't explain how she has a body when killed at the end.
Lots more questions came up this week but I will end it with a thought, MiB said the people were very smart. Is it possible that they are actually from the future. Temporal displacement the such seems a far reach for metal acting weird and stange lights. Dharma?

#94. Posted by: Stock at May 12, 2010 11:46 AM

#93. Posted by: James

Hey, that is a good point.

Also, if Claudia is from Rome, it is weird that she gave her son a Hebrew name (Jacob). And it kind of doesn't made sense for his brother to be named Esau. We know the Jacob and Esau story, but a woman living in Rome at that time probably wasn't well-versed in the Hebrew Old Testament. Right?

Not that ANY of that matters to the LOST story, really. :)

There was a moment right before Crazy Mom died when I thought she called MIB "Jose." Then I just laughed at myself because that is ridiculous. I'm also the one who convinced herself that Keamy said something about "the island" while talking to Jin in the walk-in cooler. :)

#95. Posted by: Christin at May 12, 2010 11:55 AM

@Christin: LOL. "Jose" -- oh man, that's awesome.

#96. Posted by: mac at May 12, 2010 11:57 AM

#76. Posted by: Harley R. Pageot

Very interesting thoughts, thank you for posting them. I now wonder as well whether MIB was human and became the smoke monster, or whether the smoke monster already existed on the island and took MIBs form only once he died.

Something that was said, I believe by Rousseau's husband (?) came back to me with all this talk of "protecting" the island. Wasn't smokey called some kind of "security system?"

#97. Posted by: glostover at May 12, 2010 11:57 AM

Didn't MIB smash the wine bottle at one point? Why did Jacob give it to him if that is what makes one immortal and guardian of the light/island?

Also, MIB didn't willingly "go" into the lighted cave so maybe what happened to him isn't the same as if someone chose to go in.

#98. Posted by: BEMH at May 12, 2010 12:01 PM

Mac @66: “That's where we're going to differ. I don't think the island is the key -- it's what the characters do on it, who they become, etc. But that's my perspective.”
I completely agree. The origin of the island and all its mystical stuff is unimportant. Well, not unimportant actually, it simply IS. Last night Mom said so, “Answers will lead to more questions”.

Like the origin of man…how it happened is of intellectual interest, but essentially, even if we understand how it happened, the mystery remains. We can never know by asking. We can only hope to know by being.

#99. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 12:09 PM

@76 I had similar thoughts

I thought this was a pretty decent episode. I think that we are purhaps missing the most important thing that this episode had to offer though. What if MIB and the smoke monster are two separate entities!!! What if Jacob actually did kill his brother? What if MIB is dead? This would ecplain a lot. The smoke monster is a separate entitiy and was not formed when Jacob killed his brother and pushed him into the light but was always there. The smoke monster is the simply part of the light and its desire to get off the island. The smoke monster then manipulates MIB by taking over his real mother's body knowing that he can convince him to leave the island, thus eliminating a candidate. When FMom stops him from leaving by bashing his head into a wall the smoke monster kills all the people in the village minus MIB Knowing this will anger him to the point where he will kill his mother(the guardian) This then leaves no guardian in place and he just has to elimiante the final two candidates(Jacob and MIB). Jacob kills MIB so he is the only one left and Jacob assumes his new guardian role over the light and the smoke monster. The smoke monster must wait another who knows how many years till he can finally kill Jacob and attempt to escape again. When they have that conversation on the beach where MIB says he is going to kill Jacob and find a loophole, it is actually the smoke monster manifesting itself in MIB's body. This also explains why the smoke monster cannot kill Jacob(he is the guradian, not actually because they are brothers) and why the smoke monster cannot touch candidates. Not sure if this makes any sense but just food for thought.

#100. Posted by: addicted at May 12, 2010 12:26 PM

GRAA Mac, thanks.

My first thought when FMom killed Claudia was *How is she going to feed those babies? Boar's milk?*

No name for MIB drove me crazy - I kept thinking about the movie 'That Thing You Do' where they never named The Bass Player (even in the credits he's listed as TB Player).

#101. Posted by: Java at May 12, 2010 12:27 PM

Uh. Whoa. I feel let-down by such a "forced" episode. Felt like it was trying to hard to "work" and echo all of Mac's sentiments and his questions which I will not repeat. I do want to add to the list, though:

- Was it blood that psycho-drama-mam gave Jacob to drink? That was my first thought, especially when she said something like "part of me for you."

- If crazy-killer-mom somehow made it a "rule" that the boys could not kill each other, would she not have made herself "protected" by the same mojo? I mean, seriously, after MIB left don't you think she would have put some type of protection over herself too?

- If MIB can inhabit dead/vacated bodies only (i.e. Christian Shepherd)and seems to have the ability to come and go btwn different dead bodies, then why is he "stuck" in Locke's form?

- Was Claudia really a ghost when young MIB saw her or was it another Smokey taking the form of her? Seems like there has to be a difference b/n those dead folks that reappear as ghosts and the ones that reappear courtesy of Smokey taking over their dead body.

- So hundreds of years, lots of death and destruction and massive amounts of lying have all been to protect a cave of light? Seriously? I just have to believe we're gonna get more than that. Cause it seems weak and trite. sigh.

#102. Posted by: GatorGal at May 12, 2010 12:50 PM

How many of you think Un-Mom was a smoke monster too? Seemed she torched the camp in a similar style, she knew enough about the bat cave not to go in there, she thanked her son for killing her, and he killed her though the heart before she spoke to him - just like Dogen advised Sayid when he attempted to kill UnLocke. Seems maybe mom was the pre-Jacob and pre-Smokey.... Absolutely loved this essential episode, not sure why so many didn't like it.

#103. Posted by: V at May 12, 2010 12:54 PM

@ 102 GatorGal - If crazy-killer-mom somehow made it a "rule" that the boys could not kill each other, would she not have made herself "protected" by the same mojo? I mean, seriously, after MIB left don't you think she would have put some type of protection over herself too?

The answer (I think) is that she was protected. And I think she was very old and had been on the island for a long time. That's why she said "Thank you" to MIB when he stabbed her. She was ready to end her stay and turn it over to Jacob.

#104. Posted by: dk at May 12, 2010 12:56 PM

@ 103 - Yes, that lines up to what I'm thinking. That's why she said "Don't go into the tunnel."

#105. Posted by: dk at May 12, 2010 12:58 PM

#53: I preferred MIB. He had a questing mind, and examined things rather than just accepting them. When you discover your 'mom' has killed your REAL Mom, and lied to you most of your life - well, that's got to cause a family rift! And what's so bad about wanting to leave the island?

Great question. Which makes me wonder also, why MIB believed that spirit so easily...

It should be noted that MIB is dead. His spirit is in the Smoke Monster just like John Locke. It seems to have adopted their personalities and memories, but it is not MIB or Locke it is definitely someone or something else (evil incarnate indeed)

#106. Posted by: theoldred29 at May 12, 2010 1:01 PM

Best quote in my household from last night:

My wife - "Is that like the fountain of youth or something?"

Red...Neck...Man - "I guarantee it's the fountain of disappointment."

That's the first episode in the entire series that I've sat in a chair with my arms folded across my chest the whole time. My wife was like, 'somebody's grumpy over there...holy body language'.

Thanks for a solid and honest review Mac.

ARG

#107. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 12, 2010 1:01 PM

@ 102 GatorGal: "If crazy-killer-mom somehow made it a "rule" that the boys could not kill each other, would she not have made herself "protected" by the same mojo? I mean, seriously, after MIB left don't you think she would have put some type of protection over herself too?"
___I don't think the rules are magical. No mojo, they're just rules. "You can not harm each other" "You can not leave the island" ... its like "You must be home by midnite" but there is always a kid who will not show up until 12:30.

#108. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 1:10 PM

Okay - last night got me thinking about the song that always played in the VW van that Hurley took on a joyride. I think this is important! It was Shambala:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambala

In Hinduism Shambala has three meanings:

Shambhal is a place where one gets peace and security
Another meaning is, ' that which attracts others ', or ' that which confers distinction '
The third meaning is, ' a place situated near water '.

If you delve further - In Theosophy
Shamballa (Theosophical spelling) is the dwelling place of the governing deity of Earth, Sanat Kumara, and his attendants.

Sanat Kumara - literally translated means ETERNAL YOUTH.

So - is this the light? The life force? SHAMBALLA! WOOOOO WOOOOO YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH!

#109. Posted by: TS at May 12, 2010 1:14 PM

@ #95 Christin: I too thought that psycho-mom whispered MIB's name after he stabbed her. Any way of finding that tidbit somewhere? Must of been a sharp knife to get through that layer of stank she had on her!

#110. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 12, 2010 1:17 PM

@shikotee

So the island is not important even though it is the one thing every single character on the show has interacted with and been affected by. While I realize that the actual rocks, sand and trees that make up the island is merely a back drop, please do not try to tell us that the island is not at the core of the show's mysticism and mythology.

#111. Posted by: gables79 at May 12, 2010 1:26 PM

With a mountain of questions unanswered and so many dots left to be connected, I smell a St. Elsewhere final moment brewing. I'd like to keep the faith in Darlton, but I can't see how they can pull it off, or if they even want to. The extra half-hour for the finale is a smoking gun. I hope the 2-hr recap connects most of the dots instead of it being a review.

#112. Posted by: CAM at May 12, 2010 1:26 PM

@111 (Mac): Yeah, the comments have been weird for me today.

#113. Posted by: James at May 12, 2010 1:28 PM

I don't think Mom was a smokey. The only exposure we have to Smokey thus far is MIB. And MIB no longer has an actual body, which is why Sayid could not kill him. If Mom was a smokey then it would follow that she could not have been killed for the same reason.

That brings up an interesting question though: Why did Dogen send Sayid to murder Flocke? Was Dogen unaware that Flocke was not corporeal? That seems unlikely. Did Dogen hope that Flocke would murder Sayid? That seems unlikely because Sayid was a candidate. Was Sayid being tested and if so, why? Was Dogen just trying to piss Flocke off? Or was he trying to piss Sayid off?

#114. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 1:31 PM

More on Shambala - it's all sounding a little familiar! (i reacall MIB discussing how awful 'his people' were...and is Shambala 'what lies in the shadow of the statue?'

Shambala
This idea of a lost kingdom somewhere in the Himalayas has also circulated in Tibetan Buddhist teaching for centuries, and may well itself have been told at the court of Akbar. The name Shambala first appears in a text known as the Kalachakra tantra - or Wheel of Time teaching. The Kalachakra doctrine belongs to the highest level of Buddhist Mahayana teaching, and those who follow it can reach enlightenment in just a number of years rather than a whole lifetime.

In this doctrine, the place named Shambala appears as a mystical conception, a spiritual rather than a geographical goal. (Curiously, although the tale is known now as a Tibetan myth, it seems that it was first recorded in AD 966 in India.) The Buddhist Kalachakra tale tells of a land behind the Himalayas, ruled by a gracious King Sucandra, who was the first to learn the Kalachakra doctrine from Buddha Sakyamuni himself.

In Shambala, the people lived in peace and harmony, faithful to the principles of Buddhism, and the concepts of war and sorrow were unknown. Shambala is a magic land, unlike any place on earth, and rests in the shadow of a magnificent white mountain. As one commentator on the Kalachakra tantra puts it:

The land of Shambala lies in a valley. It is only approachable through a ring of snow peaks like the petals of a lotus ... At the centre is a nine-storey crystal mountain which stands over a sacred lake, and a palace adorned with lapis, coral, gems and pearls. Shambala is a kingdom where humanity's wisdom is spared from the destructions and corruptions of time and history, ready to save the world in its hour of need.
The prophecy of Shambala states that each of its 32 kings will rule for 100 years. As their reigns pass, conditions in the outside world will deteriorate. Men will become obsessed with war and pursue power for its own sake and materialism will triumph over all spiritual life. Eventually an evil tyrant will emerge to oppress the earth in a despotic reign of terror. But just when the world seems on the brink of total downfall and destruction, the mists will lift to reveal the icy mountains of Shambala. Then the 32nd king of Shambala, Rudra Cakrin, will lead a mighty army against the tyrant and his supporters and in a last great battle, they will be destroyed and peace restored.

#115. Posted by: TS at May 12, 2010 1:35 PM

At some point this season, didn't someone notice there were two shades of Smoke Monster? One dark and one light. Earlier in the posts for this episode, it was suggested that Crazy Mom had been into the cavern of light already. Could there be two smoke monsters?

#116. Posted by: WolfMom61 at May 12, 2010 1:43 PM

This started off as a short post, but the number of posts has been growing faster than I can type. So here goes:

@21 posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx Right on!
@22. Posted by: Cecil Lol
@36. Posted by: Revelation, "Jacob is a squid stick!!!" Lol And to go your observation MIB's "home is not in the present day" one better, he has only ever had one home and that is the Island. Maybe home for him is Death, or Heaven, or, for that matter, Hell, or Mordor or wherever. In any event, MIB is not dead. Ersatz Mom said that going into the tunnel of light is worse than death. Living as a smoke monster might fit that description.

@41. Posted by: flambe moi. I'm not too worried about who finished creating the FDW. 2000 years have passed, during which all sorts of people could have come to the island with enough dead bodies for MIB to inhabit and give them directions on how to build what.

@43. Posted by: Yarney re "Worst Mother's Day Episode Ever?" Good call.

@52. Posted by: gables79 "Sorry, I must state the truth. When it comes to this show 'the Emperor has no clothes'!" Sorry, only the truth as you see it. Others clearly came away with a different "truth." What is interesting about this show is that it elicits so many different opinions and interpretations, as if the show is an empty vessel that we fill with our own imaginations. I wonder whether, without all the blogs, if this show would have lasted more than three seasons. One person's "brilliant" is another's "naked despot"

@54. Posted by: OtherKate While I am enjoying the shows in so far as they give the writers a chance to try to explain what has been in the backs of their minds, the show really was a better show when it wasn't trying to explain anything. As long as we had a mysterious Island with mysterious abilities and powers, it was an interesting digression on how different people would react to weird stress. Getting explanations is like finding out about what is behind the curtain in Oz or at a magic show. But "fans" have been crying for answers. And TPTB seem to be responsive to the "fans" After all, they offed Paulo and Nikki (in a fashion that would have made Patricia Highsmith green with envy.)

@66 Posted by: Mac Well I finally got here after writing the above paragraph and so confess to repeating but I leave it in as a pooint of strong agreement.

@56. Posted by: Artz Vandelay I think MIB explained his negativity towards man as having resulted from his living with them for 30 years, in spite of his also stated admiration for their cleverness in figuring out how to harness the Island's powers. It seems that being released from a purely human state into SuperSmoke, he made up for lost time over the centuries.

@58. Posted by: Boodle I don't think Jacob can make men do anything at his beckoning. He shows them the path, but they are free to take any fork they choose. And as for Claudia giving birth on the Island but other women seemingly can't, that was a problem for women who became pregnant on the Island, who died at the beginning of their third trimester.

@90. Posted by: welh "I got no religious overtones in this episode. " I agree in that the symbol of wine and perhaps the conversations between God and Satan in the book of Job, and the possible comparison between the light at the end of the tunnel and the tree of knowledge of good and evil may all be symbols familiar to Judeo-Christian-Muslim religions, but I don't think they are intended as such here. They have a religious significance but in the more abstract sense of mythology. In your point 4, I don't think mortal man transformed the life force into healing temple water but that water that passes through the light at the end of the tunnel is endowed with that power and still has it when it flows through the temple. And thanks for your point 5 on Claudia Quinta. You come up with so much of this stuff I wonder if you are a trained, bona fide classics scholar.

@91. Posted by: Mike Flocke's unfinished business being the Donkey Wheel. I don't think it is, but I really like the idea.

@93. Posted by: James Also, Esau was hairy from birth, but MIB baby looked shaved like Jacob, which btw I thought was a little annoying having what looked like graphics babies rather than newborns that look like they need to be inflated (where did I hear that recently?) Also, Esau was a hunter, and adventurous type while Jacob clung to his mom.

@100. Posted by: addicted. I didn't like your idea about MIB and smokey being two different entities, but as I read your argument, I thought it was very interesting and almost convincing.

@101. Posted by: Java "Boars milk I understand is the fairest dish in all the land, when thus bedecked with a gay garland, let us servire cantico" Ooops, wrong carol. (Getting punchy by now.)

@102. Posted by: GatorGal I thought it was blood as well.


whew!

#117. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 1:54 PM

Another long post. If you didn't like #117, skip this one.

GRAA Mac. Also liked your further thoughts @ 61. I more or less agree with you. This episode did not tell us anything about the Losties and didn't even tell us much about how the island is influencing the losties. It did not tell us who jungle boy was other than possibly the ghost of Jacob, which some people can see and some can't.

I am very bothered by who killed the people in the ProtoOthers settlement (or whatever it was) and filled in the well while Jacob was sleeping. Surely not crazy mother. She may be good at bashing, but there was no indication that she had super powers.

This is where I seem to be at the end of this show, in agreement with others who have expressed these opinions:

Rules don't count for much and can be made up as one goes along.

The Island has special physical properties in the form of magnetism and, for want of a better descriptor, a microsun. These properties, when they interact with the rest of the world, manifest strange island behavior that is partially controllable, such as time travel and movement between parallel universes.

You don't have to know the laws of general relativity and quantum mechanics to figure out how to control your interaction with the Island's properties. The ProtoOthers appear to have done it. I think MIB mentioned how clever they were.

The Island also has special metaphysical properties that allow the manifestation of ghosts, abilities to see and hear said ghosts, visions of the future. These abilities are transferable and can persist away from the Island. Eloise has her future seeing skills (unless she is faking it like Uncle Marvel and is just using information in Faraday's journals); Miles who was born on the Island has a sort of residual ability to read the last thoughts of the dead, Hurley seems to have acquired this skill by being touched by Jacob though this would not explain his imaginary friend and possibly Libby's dead husband Dave, Jack Hamlet sees his father's ghost after his return from the Island.

Finally, the Island has powers of life and death. It can cause some people to heal. It can grant eternal life. It allows the manifestation of at least one human soul as a smoke monster. It supports ghosts though the ghosts may be purely psychological recreations in the minds of others and it is the subconscious or, if you will, the souls of those who see the ghosts, that is giving the ghosts form and voice. It may be the Island itself that allows the spirit of MIB to exist not only as the smoke monster but as the incarnation of a dead body as long as the dead body is on the island (see 17 by JacobnEsau and 18 by l0stb0y above.) Hence he appears as himself, as Christain and as Locke. But I have a question: Can there be more than one smoke monster, more than one disembodied soul? This question will never be answered.

I no longer believe MIB is evil. I believe he sees all humanity as, if not evil, as worthless and something to get rid of. Therefore, he has no moral problems with using them to his own ends and disposing of them at will. His transformation into an Ubercynic was the result of bad things done to him only because he was curious and longed for perfect goodness. His subsequent actions, while misguided, derive from his life experiences. I am in agreement with @21 and 23. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx. I bow to Revelation's superior insight (@36).

I very much appreciate Mac's observation on Ersatz Mother's answer to Claudia, "Every question and answer will simply lead to another question. You should rest." that "if that's not a message for the audience then I don't know what is"

#118. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 1:56 PM

I would dearly love to know if the writers actually truly envisioned a mother and son as Adam and Eve (and a whiff of backstory) way back in Season 1, or if they just kinda sorta threw that out there as a "mystery to be solved later", not even knowing if the show would get renewed after the first year.

And in the intervening years, they came up with a roadmap on how to tie that Nikki-and-Paolo-esque sideshow into the greater main plot.

Was it just me, or did it look like MIB got zwoinked down the swirly light hole like a courtesy-flushed steamer?

Jacob as Roto-Rooter Man? Makes as much sense as anything else.

RNM - Fountain of disappointment...Spot on, my good man. Spot on.

#119. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 12, 2010 2:00 PM

The glow-cave spit out MIB's dead body after Smokey left. So, if Smokey needs an unburied corpse in order to manifest itself as human, why did it ever need Christian, Locke, etc? MIB's corpse has always been available - it's in the Adam-and-Eve cave.

#120. Posted by: ebk at May 12, 2010 2:09 PM

@119 ransomjackson stated
"I would dearly love to know if the writers actually truly envisioned a mother and son as Adam and Eve (and a whiff of backstory) way back in Season 1, or if they just kinda sorta threw that out there as a "mystery to be solved later"

The more and louder TPTB said they had this all planned out from the beginning, the less and less believable they were to me.

#121. Posted by: welh at May 12, 2010 2:13 PM

watery tarts distributing wine is no basis for a system of mystical island protectors

#122. Posted by: Gumbo at May 12, 2010 2:21 PM

OK, here’s a theory:

Jacob’s “mom” was the smoke monster.

It was known that the smoke monster can be killed with that dagger as long as you don’t let it speak first.

Every time their mother went up to the MIB, she always asked him if she could join him, i.e. when she met him on the beach and when she met him in the well, thereby preventing him from killing her.

When he did kill her, she didn’t say anything. She walked into the cave, and he stabbed her, with the same knife.

How else could she, on her own, have killed that entire tribe, as well as filling up the well?

She told Jacob and his brother that going into the light was worse than death. How would she have known that if she didn’t go in herself?

She said “thank you” after Jacob’s brother killed her. He was releasing her from the curse.

Jacob throwing his brother into the light passed the curse on to him.

Thoughts?

#123. Posted by: Kevooon at May 12, 2010 2:23 PM

@70. Posted by: gables79
re: Linus was an integral character for 5 seasons yet this year has been virtually non-existent

Keep in mind - the character of Ben originally was supposed to be minimal. It got expanded when TPTB and fans really liked what they saw. With that said, I also am grouchy that they did not explore this character even further. Where was he educated? Why was he traveling around all over the world with various passports? Was he the economist? Like many - I miss him being the head psycho honcho who is messing with everyone's minds! With all that said - I really really really liked that scene with Ilana where he makes peace with her. This was Ben coping with his personal nihilism.

I miss Ben - but I do like the direction his character developed in, and I also find the differing version of him in the sideways world very compelling. What is it that makes man become good, evil, neutral, or a drastic mixture of both?


@72. Posted by: gables79
re: call for a return to the earlier seasons

In other words, you're possibly like a crabby old timer who is out of touch with modernity, and is clinging to the perceived perfection of the past? ;)

Ever watch SNL when Dana Carvey portrayed the Grumpy Old Man?
"Cause that's the way it was, and we liked it!"

I'm totally kidding here, but I stick by the main point.

To what degree is clinging to the past useful when nothing can be changed?


@75. Posted by: Mr.Naysayer
re: Ben and his little girlfriend

They opted not to develop this any further. Not really a big deal. Looking back on my own life, especially my childhood, there are like zillions of people who I was once close with, where this is no longer the case. She was Ben's first island friend, and maybe that was all that there was to her? I think the problem lies with us constantly wanting her to be so much more.


@76. Posted by: Harley R. Pageot
re: The Smoke Monster was around long before Jacob was born.

My interpretation of the time-lines differs from yours. My presumption was that the birth of Jacob and MIB precedes the Egyptians making it to the island. The transition to English was a storytelling device, so as to avoid having the entire episode done in Latin. Everyone seems so huffy and puffy about this transition, while I did not see this problem. I was quite happy not to have to read the dialogue for the entire episode.

One take is that smokey did not exist up until the moment that MIB made contact with the source of the light. As to whether he still is the same person, dead or alive - I think these are pointless existential concerns that can be argues both ways till the end of time. It can be either-or, and will depend on how the writers choose to address it. They may possibly keep this part vague. The point being - the explanation is purely fictional.

And sure - if you want - smokey can be a modern day manifestation of death.

With that said - I concede that smokey might have already been around, and that MIB was simply absorbed. The only thing that makes this fishy is that MIB seems to dominate the essence of smokey, which makes it seem that he was the original. Death always existed prior to this, but direct exposure make him become the embodiment of death.


@83. Posted by: BEMH
re: "It cracked me up when young MIB aksed "what's dead?" and then they proceed to kill a boar! Furthermore, if the island is all there is, how do they even know what the definition of an island is? Why don't they just call the
island the world?"

Considering that they live in isolation, the boys have not seen anyone die. I would imagine FMama constantly talks about life being forever, as we have already seen. There have been various cultures that have not linked life and death of man with the life and death of inferior animals. They know what the island is because FMama taught them this. Remember - she is not originally from the island - she came from the outside world. Their knowledge of everything (until they encounter outsiders, and MIB leaves) comes from the school of FMama.


@85. Posted by: Luke
re: "how I feel the series is coming together and has been structured"

Well - What were you waiting for? It is about time you chimed in! ;)

Good points with regards to the character development and repetition of themes.

I think this episode served as a good source for some of the repeated themes/problems, and I do not believe it is really needed that it be explained why or how this happening exactly.

"I personally think it will be more productive to enjoy the ride, appreciate the tie-ins and answers that we do get and hope that the ending is both satisfying while we watch, but one that upholds the legacy that we all hope remains in tact once the show is over"

Well said!


@87. Posted by: James
re: "FMom's remark that each answer would lead to more questions isn't just a cop-out by the writers or a nod to the fans clamoring for more revelations; it's a statement about the nature of the universe. We'll never have all the answers."

I totally agree with you.
Everyone has yanked out the torches and pitchforks, demanding that we be given answers.

When we get them, the crowd gets even more angry because they don't like them.
LoL!


@89. Posted by: undauntid

Good points about the ambiguity of good/evil throughout the show. As I mentioned previously - this can be seen in the guardians of the island as well. Correct me if I am wrong, but did FMom ever directly tell Jacob that he could never leave? In any case - not leaving was her rule - and thus it was so. The Jacob era was his rules, which he maintained with smokey, but seemingly not himself. Being king has its perks!

re: shipwrecked people harnessing power

My take on this is that MIB greatly influences them in this direction. He is the smart and creative one, while they are the labour force. One has to wonder what carrot he dangled to get them to do it?


@90. Posted by: welh

Well - At the least, it is good to see that your approach isn't as misanthropic as the rest!

"I thought the wine to Jacob was casting (or unlocking) a magic spell so Jacob could "know" everything about the island and its properties."

Has anyone made sense of her mutterings/incantations when this happens? I also believe the wine itself is largely symbolic, and that it is not the chemical properties that lead to wisdom/guardianship. This is of course an allegorical reference to Adam and Eve and the consumption of wisdom.


"Also, if anyone came in direct contact with the light, they should have also turned into Smoke Monsters"

It is unclear if this would happen to every person that has contact with it.
The message I took from this is that unpredictable bad things could happen, which was the case for MIB.
Who knows what would happened to Hugo if he was chucked in there.
I think it is the light force that is responsible for all the weird abilities that certain people have.
In other words, it might effect different people in different ways, and this might also depend on length of exposure.
For Rose, just being on the island cures cancer. For Locke - he can walk. Sorry Ben - you need a surgeon!


"If the life force embodies life, death, and rebirth, then I do not see how mortal man could transform it into
healing temple water"

I would wager that it was a natural phenomenon , and the Temple was built around it. Like a thermal spa.
In fact - I wonder if the Temple itself was built ontop of the secret spot that we saw. I could see Jacob doing something like this to help protect it. It would explain why the outside of the temple seems to house smokey - perhaps he needed to return to the power source? I guess we'll see if we ever revisit that locale in modern times.


"People looking for a time frame for this episode"

I think you are on the ball here. It would then make sense that more people from antiquity visit the island, and that all sorts of development ensues.

"There are no set Rules. The one in charge (the guardian) sets the rules."

Exactly. Which means the rules can be smart and stupid, depending on the perspective of the rule maker.

"as a demi-god why did he need people to build temples or Dharma stations?"

The island powers do not enable the guardian to create mass - he simply can influence people. Jacob seemingly can't just blink, and presto - we have a lighthouse. Alas - the Genie theory is possibly kaput!

"that would prove MIB was right: there was something across the sea."

I think that this lesson was only applied when they were children. Once Jacob and MIB encounter Others, I don`t think mama maintained this piece of fiction.

"I infer that she may once have been human, but here enlightenment changed her being into a semi-god status. She was probably tricked into becoming the guardian. She needed to trick someone to take her place, and children are easier to manipulate. Only when she could confer her powers onto another being (like Jacob), could her job be complete and she could pass on (to next life, rebirth, etc.)"

Yup - being a guardian is not all it is cracked out to be. The parallel with Desmond and the button is the best way to look at this theme. You believe you are doing something important and good - but you also want to pass it on to someone else, so as to achieve peace.


@101. Posted by: Java
re: My first thought when FMom killed Claudia was *How is she going to feed those babies? Boar's milk?*

Totally! This also crossed my mind!


@103. Posted by: V
re: Un-Mom was a smoke monster

It`s possible, but I doubt it. Up until she dies, she seems to have a body. With that said, she might have the ability to summon the smoke monster to wreck havoc. That would make more sense.


@111. Posted by: gables79
re: the island is not important

This is not what I was saying. Explaining how or why the island power works is not important.
Ultimately, it will be a contrived answer, which likely will be less satisfying than the mystery.
Explaining that the island is powered by flubber is meaningless.


@116. Posted by: WolfMom61
re: Could there be two smoke monsters?

I see this as a possibility, but do not think FMama is a smokey. As mentioned above, as island guardian, perhaps she was able to unleash the powers of the smokey, or a smokey.


@118. Posted by: August Paul
re: Can there be more than one smoke monster, more than one disembodied soul? This question will never be answered.

Perhaps there will be more clarification of the powers of the guardian. Perhaps this will become more clear when or if we see who is Jacob`s successor. Perhaps the sideways world is due to the rules of the new guardian?

#124. Posted by: shikotee at May 12, 2010 2:25 PM

This episode really is a thinker. I didn't find it overly enjoyable last night (that's what she said?), but there was a lot of important/interesting information dispensed. I have to agree with Mac on the effect last night's episode (and probably Ab Aeterno as well) has on the dramatic irony of the series, since we now know so much more than the main characters.

Anyway, my point. I have come to the conclusion that the MIB/Smokey conversion was not the result of his dip in the "fountain of disappointment." It is the result of Jacob breaking the rules. This is why, even after his "death," MIB sought a loophole by which his brother could be killed. Had he attempted to off Jacob on his own, Jacob might have turned into a smoke monster or something even worse.

#125. Posted by: James at May 12, 2010 2:30 PM

@Gumbo: Well played!

And to that I add:

"Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the castaways, not from some farcical subterranean ceremony!"

#126. Posted by: mac at May 12, 2010 2:39 PM

#122. Posted by: Gumbo

HAHAHAHA Nice reference. Loved it!

#127. Posted by: Christin at May 12, 2010 2:42 PM

Don't know why most people seemed to dislike this episode. I really loved it. and meybe we all knew tht it wasn't going to be as pat as "Jacob good, MIB evil" but it made it abundantly clear here.

Everyone keeps getting hung up on how mommy filled in the well and killed all those people. Was she a smoke monster. But we never see her doing those things. If you ask me she seemed a little surprised and upset when she entered the camp later and saw the destruction. I don't think she did it.

#128. Posted by: Blix at May 12, 2010 2:56 PM

MIB's memories in Smokey may have led him manipulate people brought to the island into creating the FDW. If MIB-Smokey wanted to leave, it could take human form and turn the wheel as Flocke (who has been seen moving objects). But in a thousand years, Smokey never turned the wheel. Unless, turning the wheel destroys him or if he is flashed to the outside world, his non-human substance would cease to be.

I bring this up because if Jacob has been bringing people to the island, it was not for MIB's sake. I think he accepted the fact that he caused a cascade of events that led to both his CrazyMom's and brother's death. His world had ended. He was left with a substitute brother, the smoke monster. He was looking for a candidate so he could die (his punishment) and rejoin his real brother in death, but he had not found one person who would "accept" the position as guardian.

But MIB's ghost does not want Jacob to scheme his way off the island by death; he wants to continually punish Jacob for what he did to MIB by keeping Jacob on the island for eternity.

#129. Posted by: welh at May 12, 2010 2:59 PM

Jacob and MIB's adoptive mother was seriously bad a#! to be able to drag MIB out of the well, kill an entire village and bury the well. Looks like strength on par with what a smoke monster could do. Any chance she was a smoke monster herself? Maybe she went into the light and found out what happens the hard way?

Could baby Aaron have significance? Although Kate is not a candidate, it would be very interesting if she ended up raising him to be the next Jacob (whole adoptive mother thing repeating itself).

Why wouldn't Mother let MIB leave the island? He seemed relatively harmless. He just wanted to leave. Why not just let Jacob be the one and let MIB go? This is a really big question to me as the whole plot now centers around stopping Flocke from leaving. As long as there's a new Jacob to protect the light, what does it matter whether MIB is on or off the island. When Mother was the guardian there she didn't have an evil counterpart so there is no precident that says there must be one good person and one evil person hanging out on the island.

Does MIB still have his "light" or did he loose it in the light cave? While he felt some degree of remorse when he killed his adoptive mother, he didn't show any emotion when Ben killed Jacob for him. I think he's lost his light. Even so, I still don't see him as someone who is intent on destroying all of humanity, rather Flocke just seems like he wants to get off the island and is willing to do whatever it takes.

#130. Posted by: Mike at May 12, 2010 3:16 PM

Long Theory Alert

@123 Kevoon -
"She told Jacob and his brother that going into the light was worse than death. How would she have known that if she didn’t go in herself?"

Exactly!!!

She said “thank you” after Jacob’s brother killed her. He was releasing her from the curse.

Still With YA!!!

Jacob throwing his brother into the light passed the curse on to him.

Thoughts?

Not with ya on this one.
She told the boys that they are never to go inside the cave because it would be worse than death. But MIB did not go into the cave, he put into the cave. If he had already died. (Face down in the water) The cave effect might be a re-birth of sorts. Smoke thing can absorb the essence of life. Once from FMom, now From MIB and eventually Christian, Locke... Smoke thing is the security system. He knows the experiences and final thoughts of those he mimicks.

It was when it absorbed the MIB's essence, that smoke thing aquired the experiences MIB, the recognition of the evil and selfishness of the men on the island, and the passionate desire to go home; to Leave the island. Acting out in order of the experiences and in full compliance with the smoke thing's primary function, Smokie errupts from the cave and immediately smashes the threat of the evil corrupt men. It was not until after the automatic reflex to protect was satisfied, that the passions and desires of the absorbed MIB essence came to the forefront. In a struggle to understand, Smokie takes the form of MIB and tries to satisfy his needs. (Remember the big box ben spoke to locke about)Also, Remember MIB telling Jack he appeared as Christian and brought him to the water he needed, and the Dharma food drop from nowhere. This is a secondary function.

If Jacob would have stopped foolishly bringing people to the island, Smokie would not have had a reason to protect the island. He may still be trying to fill MIB's final wishes, and leave the island, but he needs to protect the island or give no reason to protect the island to leave.

Well that was fun. Can't wait to be disproved in next weeks episode.

#131. Posted by: Revelation at May 12, 2010 3:19 PM

Where did the "rule" come from that Flocke can only get off the island if the candidates are all dead? No living candidate neans no one to guard the light which evidently is bad becasue it could fall into the hands of men with catastrophic results. However, death of the candidates is the only way for Flocke to leave the island. Why did this have to be a rule? Does Flocke himself pose a risk to the world or is it just a matter of the light being left defenseless? If Flocke isn't out to kill everyone, then it is this "rule" that screws everything up, becasue Flocke would have left a long time ago and Jacob could proceed with candidate selection. I really want to understand this and hope it is explained.

#132. Posted by: Mike at May 12, 2010 3:26 PM

GatorGal & August Paul: Blood, not wine? I am skeptical.

August Paul @ 118: "I no longer believe MIB is evil. I believe he sees all humanity as, if not evil, as worthless and something to get rid of. Therefore, he has no moral problems with using them to his own ends and disposing of them at will." ____ I agree he is not evil; but he is doing very bad things.

#123. Posted by: Kevooon: That is an interesting and compelling angle…Mom always asked if she could come in, speaking before she approached. And when she approached MIB for the last time, she appears to have resigned herself to die (she said she was tired, she passed her responsibility to Jacob) so she did not announce her presence which permitted MIB to kill her. I didn’t think so before, but now I have to consider that perhaps Mom was a smokey also.
But that brings up another consideration: If Mom was also smokified, and acting as guardian of the glow cave, then Smokey is not the danger, it’s Smokey yearning to be free that is the problem? So does that mean that the job has changed for Jacob? Mom only had to keep people out of the glow cave; but Jacob has to keep people out of the glow cave and keep MIB on the island.


#124. Posted by: shikotee; "Ultimately, it will be a contrived answer, which likely will be less satisfying than the mystery.
Explaining that the island is powered by flubber is meaningless."
_____I'm 100% with you on this shikotee! And I also prefer to have the explanation remain shrouded in mystery than to be told Isis has imbued the island with special powers.

I guess a fundamental difference in perspective here on the board is that some of us think of "mystical" as being unexplainable by its very nature, so we are satisfied with not having it explained.

#133. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 3:35 PM

don't think this point has been addressed yet..
i was a little disappointed we didn't get any insight into the whole egyptian thing last night..
FMom was alone on the island (supposedly) but who came before? who built the statue? why is there no pregnancy allowed on the island? can we get these answers in the next 3.5 hours?

that being said....

under ben's house in dharmaville, when ben and locke go down and ben sees his daughter.. we see Anubis or something carved on teh wall, bowing to a Snake/Smoke-like creature.. this leads me to believe that someone must have been turned into a smoke monster in the past. unless of course, this is a reference to MIB. in that case, all the egyptian stuff - cavern building, donkey wheel making would have taken place well after the Jacob/MIB showdown..

#134. Posted by: vintage at May 12, 2010 3:40 PM

@Long theory post part 2

IMO, All but one must die not just the candidates. I too believe that Jacob allowed himself to be killed becuase the replacement has already been delivered Remember ben turned the FDW but he was not supposed to do that; it should have been Locke. Ben was exposed to the light, and Ben is the replacement. Just as MIB killed the previous guardian, Ben kills his predisessor Jacob even told him he still had choices, ben just did not know what he was choosing. Now, with Jacob gone, noone will be bekoned to the island. With everyone currently there dead, no one to protect the island against evil. With said island submerged, nowhere to shipwreck or crash on. It is free to leave in order to satisfy it's secondary function and fill the need to go home, impressed on it by MIB, and reinforced by locke's addage "Don't tell me what I can't do". All other impressions have been satisfied.

All I need to think through now is Desmonds role. The rules don't apply to desmond?

#135. Posted by: Revelation at May 12, 2010 3:44 PM

Anyone else think MIB might meet his end in the finale much like his "mother" did, allowing himself to be daggered, then eking out a "Thank you" to the killer? Or will he remain stubborn to the end, insisting that he can make it "home"?

#136. Posted by: James at May 12, 2010 3:54 PM

#136. Posted by: James, "Anyone else think MIB might meet his end in the finale much like his "mother" did, allowing himself to be daggered, then eking out a "Thank you" to the killer? Or will he remain stubborn to the end, insisting that he can make it "home"?"
____I still think Desmond is there to somehow contain MIB. With as many times as TPTB have shown us that corked bottle, I would not be surprised if Desmond contains Smokey in a bottle, be it metaphorical or actual.

#137. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 4:07 PM

iheartsayid (#44) said:

"And sorry but I just don't get the Crazy Unhygienic Mother meme around here. (Okay, Undead Claire excepted!) I never found Rousseau to be any battier than anyone else, or any more hygienically challenged. Same goes now for Jacob's Mom."

I completely agree! In fact, I think that statements such as "a disheveled woman who could easily best Rousseau in a worst-hygiene competition" (by mac) and "Must of been a sharp knife to get through that layer of stank she had on her!" (by Red...Neck...Man) miss a major symbolic point. In every appearance in that episode, that woman's skin and clothes are *clean*--weirdly so, considering the living conditions. This is especially apparent in the the scenes where the woman can be compared to the 'others' on the island, such as the one where she stands in the forest and watches the literally filthy villagers walk by. The young Jacob and MIB were similarly well-kempt, and Jacob remains so for the rest of the episode. Once the MIB goes to live with the villagers, however, *he* becomes just as unclean as they are. I think this is meant to be a visual cue to tie in with the MIB's accusation that Jacob only "looks down on [the villagers] from above." Jacob and his mother are removed from humanity and (mostly) untouched by it. The MIB, on the other hand, was/is willing to get dirty.

What I *can't* decide is *how* the writers are trying to present the clean/dirty dichotomy. They could be going with 'cleanliness is next to godliness', which implies that Jacob and his mother are striving towards good and the MIB has abandoned it. Or they could be showing that humanity has a 'get your hands dirty' approach to life that is compatible with their curiosity about the world, and the MIB shares that attitude; in this case, Jacob and his mother's standoffish attitude is less admirable.

#138. Posted by: Marissa at May 12, 2010 4:11 PM

@shikotee: So if I disagree with you I am an old timer? Interesting analysis. Look carefully at the posts and you will see that not everyone shares the same level of enthusiasm for the show, at least not completely. I think poster's like yourself read more into this show and give the writers more credit than they deserve. To be true, I have come to enjoy the wild machinations of posters such as yourself more than the show itself.

#139. Posted by: gables79 at May 12, 2010 4:15 PM

@137. Posted by: undauntid-

"I would not be surprised if Desmond contains Smokey in a bottle, be it metaphorical or actual."

Then the bottle will get thrown into the sea, and eventually get picked up by Major Anthony Nelson an astronaut. The drama that follows is cronicled as a tv sitcom and ....

Sorry, just kidding. I was getting too serious in my previous posts.

#140. Posted by: Revelation at May 12, 2010 4:18 PM

I find it so interesting that most of you don't like the one epi we got the MOST ANSWERS out of. come on! OMG

#141. Posted by: Christina at May 12, 2010 4:31 PM

Unfortunately any of the answers the writers chose to highlight were really non-answers. They don't relate back to anything. Now we have "magic". When did this show become about magic and not faith vs. science. It's a copout that doesn't then have to explain anything.

Turning a wheel magically controls magic light. Drinking a magic potion magically makes you responsible for several thousand acres of real estate. Going down a magic river into a hole magically transforms you into magic smoke. Being on the island magically allows you to shipwreck ships, planes or see whatever in your magic lighthouse. You get the point? Utterly a waste. Don't even bother figuring it out - because it doesn't make any logical sense.

#142. Posted by: ccc at May 12, 2010 4:34 PM

So let's see...

I can continue to be a low-paid government flunky risking my life in aluminum cans projected into outer space...

OR...

I can have my every dream and fantasy fulfilled by an extraordinarily hot scantily clad (sans belly button) genie whose only desire is to fulfill all of my wishes.

Sorry...I digress...

What was with those spider webs in CJ's hair? Were those supposed to be grey streaks? Couldn't she get some Clairol from Evy Lilly?

#143. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 12, 2010 4:34 PM

MAC = BRIALT (best review in a long time), and the re-review @#61.

I was thinking about your expressed analysis. Agree with most of it. I liked that we were getting answers, but disliked that I didn't feel more "connected" to the three primary characters.

The whole episode came off as more of a football "two minute warning" for the six year long game of LOST. The coach (creative staff at Bad Robot) gave us a pep talk last night - pulling everyone to the sideline to take a knee and listen... "the game is almost over - here are your answers - no more time left for wild theories - everyone focus now on the rest of the game - we are almost there."

#144. Posted by: DocH at May 12, 2010 4:35 PM

Thanks for the great review Mac...
"Now, I'm sure someone along the line gave him a nickname -- maybe "Scooter" or "Cockroach" or "Stank" -- but in strict terms, MIB has no official name."

Love it!!! Still cracking up.

This ep just left a bad taste in my mouth...maybe because it took momentum away from our favorite Losties. Several questions answered, but I feel like somehow the timing of the ep was poor. This whole Jacob/MIB backstory should have somehow been played out weeks ago...or at least condensed and interspersed with the Lostie's story.

It's just too close to the end now and I think we wanted more of our favorite characters.

I was also surprised that Mama could have filled up the well and wreaked so much destruction and death on the village, but I don't think she's another smokie. That all just didn't sit well with me.

I want a few more answers from the Jacob backstory (the statue, his omniscience, etc.), but at this point I don't want them to come at the expense of more storytelling about Jack and Co.

My opinion is that when Jacob drank from the bottle the 'immortality' was passed on to him and it left his mama. I also am confused why MIB/Smokie is seen as pure evil now. The backstory took away from that - he's just a betrayed dude who wants off the island that he never should have been stuck on.

Oh well, the bottom line for me is that...it is what it is. I love this show, and my expectations for a life changing finale aren't there. I'm along for the rest of this enjoyable ride no matter how many questions are left unanswered. Because as Mac implied earlier, I think the characters' stories will be well played out right to the end.

#145. Posted by: JoePike at May 12, 2010 4:39 PM

@136 Posted by: James

Since MIB has known no home other than the Island, I am thinking that home for him might be a knife in the back which Jacob has been unwilling to do and which Jacob's replacement might not do because he/she thinks it's against the rule.

@133. Posted by: undauntid I didn't think it was blood, but the thought passed briefly through my head while watching the scene, no doubt because is seemed a reference to the Eucharist.

#146. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 4:40 PM

? BIB - Baby In Black.

Second twin down the chute was swaddled in black cloth. You have to wonder if those two weren't trying to kill each other in the uterus.

#147. Posted by: Ja'Fa at May 12, 2010 4:47 PM

@143. Posted by: ransomjackson
"What was with those spider webs in CJ's hair? Were those supposed to be grey streaks? Couldn't she get some Clairol from Evy Lilly?"

I wondered about those cobwebs as well but I liked the way you put it.

@144. Posted by: DocH And I liked the 2 minute warning analogy. Very well states.

#148. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 4:48 PM

I've been trying to analyze why I disliked the episode so much. For me, the writers have betrayed their audience. We knew from the start that this was no ordinary TV. This was TV that treated the audience with respect - that we actually have a brain and don't just want to be entertained but want to be stimulated with new ideas. We learned to trust them because they assured us they knew where they were taking us. Well, we're there now - coming up over the hill and can see the destination ahead. It's not that we had unreasonable expectations - we had expectations that the world we were witnessing was consistent within itself, that the answers would respect the audience as much as we were being told they respected us. I recall when I was younger and learning how to write stories - I had a plot that I couldn't figure out how to end. Then I thought of a great idea - the hero would swallow a magic pill and that would explain everything. I believe the writers have just given us their magic pill and now are expecting the audience to swallow it and pretend that explains the problems away. Instead of treating us as adults they've now treated us as children and told us that's all we get and just be happy you got anything at all.

But Darlton, I for one won't be back to anything else you do if that's the end result of investing in your brand of entertainment.

#149. Posted by: cccc at May 12, 2010 4:50 PM

@149. Posted by: cccc
"I for one won't be back to anything else you do "

The journey is the true adventure. The destination is just a plce you finish the adventure. Watch up until the end, and then skip the final two weeks. If it was good, you can always go back and watch it. But at least you enjoyed the journey brother'

#150. Posted by: Revelation at May 12, 2010 4:55 PM

The "journey is the true adventure". Spoken just like the post-modern world we are part of. There are no consequences, there is no justice, there are absolutes. If that is really what Lost has been all about then it really does illustrate that our culture has Lost its soul.

#151. Posted by: cccc at May 12, 2010 4:59 PM

@151. Posted by: cccc

It's a TV show!!! I was talking about enjoying a a work of fiction. It has no real life effect. If you want enlightened society don't look to TV. Post-Modern - pre-historic ... whatever. I like suspension of disbelief. and no I never played D&D.

#152. Posted by: Revelation at May 12, 2010 5:06 PM

Because Claudia gave birth to twins and because one of them was called Jacob, we are drawn to the story of Jacob and Esau. But Esau was born first with Jacob hanging on to his heel. Maybe Claudia and Woman (as she is called in the cast list) named the wrong twin Jacob. Maybe that is completely irrelevant.

Are the writers trying to communicate something by stating that MIB was Woman's favorite? She even slightly dissed Jacob by saying he always told the truth, that in a way he was boring. Are they trying to communicate something by not giving Woman and MIB names? Or are they just trying to be artsy and cool?

After the discussion that Claudia had thought of only one name, I though one of the two women mumbled something that at the time I thought was a name but that I couldn't understand. Anyone pick up on this and know what was said?

#153. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 5:06 PM

Thoughts that Mom had to be a/the smokey. Yes she burned the camp but the bodies were not burned...AND, they all had blood running down their heads like they got the crap knoced out of them.

Interesting that when MiB killed mom (she said thank you) did it release smokie so now it was available to consume MiB when Jacob threw him in the water?

#154. Posted by: Jack at May 12, 2010 5:14 PM

I think there's got to be some balance between "the journey is the true adventure" and "the destination is the true adventure". What should the proportion be? That's probably pretty subjective. But 100-0 doesn't work for me.

cccc@149 has a great line -- "we had expectations that the world we were witnessing was consistent within itself". For me the wheels are falling off the show's consistency, and the result feels cobbled-together.

#155. Posted by: ebk at May 12, 2010 5:14 PM

#142. ccc: "Don't even bother figuring it out - because it doesn't make any logical sense."
___ But we were aware in the first season that it was going to be fantastical.
We had:
_A jet break in half & fall out of the sky with relatively few fatalities
_apparitions
_a murderous smoke monster
_disembodied whispers
_ a labrador that doesn't retrieve statues thrown in the water
There is no logical, reality based explanation.

When dead Christian was wandering around the island I pretty much had to suspend any expectation of a reality based explanation because to my mind, "ghost" is neither logical nor reality based.

So far, TPTB have made everything fit within the story they are telling, so there is a logic within the story.

Having said that, I am still waiting to hear the explanation for that 815 "wreckage" being planted in the IN THE WRONG FREAKING OCEAN and why no one in the real world thought it at all peculiar.

#156. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 5:15 PM

@149. Posted by: cccc Can't see your point here other than you felt this episode was a childish explanation of something for which you were expecting something more adult. Perhaps it would have been better to have dispensed with the entire Jacob/MIB story and leave it as a Ben/Widmore struggle with the Oceanic Six playing out some role. I think that what we are seeing here, and I am repeating some earlier comments of mine, (not dissimilar to others that have been posted) is the disappointment of seeing how the magic trick is performed. The woman isn't really sawn in half; it's really two women in a complicatedly shaped box. How banal!

The authors, in spite of their promises that the entire story arc was thought out from the earliest days, have created too complex a plot for it to be neatly resolved. So attempts to explain things are bound to be lame. What would we have thought if they hadn't tried to explain things? What if they had not had Ab Aeterno or last night's programs but had spent more time on the origins of the names of the candidates and how they came to be so? Would that have left us more satisfied? (That is not a rhetorical question.)

#157. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 5:26 PM

@149. Posted by: cccc I do agree with you about the importance of internal consistency and I have worried about this in some past shows. I expressed a disappointing feeling earlier this season that things were being winged as we approached the end. And I have had some internal consistency arguments and discussions with my grandsons.

#158. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 5:33 PM

#151. Posted by: cccc: "The "journey is the true adventure". Spoken just like the post-modern world we are part of. There are no consequences, there is no justice, there are absolutes. If that is really what Lost has been all about then it really does illustrate that our culture has Lost its soul."

Now, if you can take the same sort of leap you applied to your response to revelation and apply it to LOST. Voila! Problem solved!

#159. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 5:38 PM

@108 undauntid:

Yeah. I can buy into that concept. Rules were made to be broken after all, right? And there are some kids (adults too) who just live by that mantra. So, OK. maybe the "rules" were more like desires/guidelines than enchantments or magical mojo!

#160. Posted by: GatorGal at May 12, 2010 6:06 PM

@119 and @121 (welh and ransomjack):

Right there with ya... the more I see the more that the ending looks forced:

"OK Lost staff. Go back and figure out how we can quickly tie up some loose ends and make it look like we really had a huge vision. When we didn't."

Feel like we are getting all these tiny little "bones" thrown in at the end. All sizzle and no steak. Feeling cheated and a little duped at this point.

BUT...I am holding on to hope that maybe, just maybe, I am being way too cynical and negative and that the show and Damon/Carlton will prove us wrong.

#161. Posted by: GatorGal at May 12, 2010 6:16 PM

@155. Posted by: ebk and cccc@149 "we had expectations that the world we were witnessing was consistent within itself".
"For me the wheels are falling off the show's consistency, and the result feels cobbled-together."

The episode tied together many themes and plot items Please see my posts above at
131 and 135

There is some consistancy to the story arcs, I am certain I missed a few in there, can anyone help me remember what I appear to have forgotten.

Oh Yes, MIB stays around in his human form in order fill Jacobs desire for campanionship of his brother. again a secondary function of smokie.

#162. Posted by: Revelation at May 12, 2010 6:18 PM

Insight (well, depending on how you define that) from Kristin over at E!:
----------------
The Island Is a Circuit Breaker: This episode was written by Lost masterminds Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse themselves, so we should pay extra attention to every word of Island mythology spilled tonight, including Allison Janney's explanation of the light dome:

"A little bit of this very same light is inside every man, but they always want more. They can't take it but they would try. And if they tried, they could put it out. And if the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere."

Hum. thoughts?

#163. Posted by: GatorGal at May 12, 2010 6:23 PM

I didn't love or hate this episode. I missed the main losties (also Ben, Richard and Miles) we have formed a strong attachment to over the years.

What bugged me the most is MIB saying he wanted to leave and go home... he knows nothing but the Island, it is his *world* so what knowledge does he have of elsewhere????

@66 Mac & @99 undauntid -- I think the characters are more important than the island, thats mostly because I have always favoured character driven books, etc over plot, sometimes if we are lucky we get both.

Anyone else think the phrase "Going into the light* might mean moving on to the next plane in the *afterlife*

#164. Posted by: lostncyberspace at May 12, 2010 6:40 PM

Ok...if someone already wrote anything like this, I apologize, but I had to try to articulate it before I forgot. Here it goes:

The wine, i'm guessing is from the same bottle that Jacob showed MIB and then he later smashed? So, the timeline of it all...did they have those conversations sometime between the age of 13 and their mother's death?
Also, if the wine in the bottle (in the analogy) is... See more all the evil in the world, "mummy" made Jacob drink some. Does that mean he has some evil in him? And "mummy" must also be a smoke monster of sorts for her to be able to successfully dissolve the camp of the outsiders. There were fires and destruction and death...very similar to the smoke monster's work. Hmmmm....

I also think there's a link between the MIB and Walt. Not only can they both see dead people, but Walt can appear out of nowhere much like the smoke monster can. Without taking on the form of the monster, he appears in a field, making the whispering sounds that often occur in the trees before the smoke monster arrives. So, is Walt "special" like the MIB, or is he really dead, and MIB is able to take over his body?

#165. Posted by: Andrea at May 12, 2010 7:00 PM

I have to say I thought it was a great episode. I very much hoped that they would do a back story on Jacob and Esau and they did! How cool was that? And so many questions were answered!

Thanks to those of you who have recalled MIB's "he took my body and my humanity" statement and to others that pointed out that MIB assumes the form of other bodies that are on the island.

It would appear that MIB didn't completely die. He lost his body with whatever is left of his soul being transferred into smoke that can among other things take the form of certain other qualifying bodies and he also has some other pretty impressive capabilities. However, he seems pretty upset by his situation so I assume that on a net basis the cons of being a smoke monster outweigh the pros.

Possibly Flocke's bad attitude centers in part around the loss of his humanity. While the loss of the physical body in exchange for a smoke form is something we can all see, the loss of humanity seems more subtle. What exactly it means to loose humanity is not as clearly defined. I assume this means that he no longer has the capacity to care for or love other people. I don't know that this means that he hates people. He may just be indifferent to them. Maybe it means he doesn't have a body so he's no longer human. I think it's more than that but I don't know.

It is interesting that despite the loss of body and humanity, MIB's goal did not change. All he wanted before the incident was to leave the island and that's still what he wants.

Sayid's experience also seemed to involve a loss of his humanity. However, he had a little piece left and he redeemed himself. Person gone wrong followed by redemption has been a common theme in this series. Any chance that somewhere in Flocke there is a tiny shred of humanity left that could come back? I'm guessing no, but it would be interesting.

#166. Posted by: Mike at May 12, 2010 7:03 PM

Heh! Thanks guys.

Farcical aquatic ceremonies (like Dogen putting Sayid in the dunk tank) have also occurred...as long as they don't start banging coconuts together, I guess we'll be ok. BUT if they end up having Jacob (and FMom) as being the Old Man From Scene 24 asking thee the questions three as the means of being the island guardian, or showing a grail shaped beacon, I think we'll all be in some serious trouble.

On a serious note, initially, I sided with many of those who were underwhelmed by the episode on the whole. Thanks to the posters here, I am beginning to re-evaluate my opinion.

There was a TON of info in this episode. I need more time to digest it.

Questions will only lead to more questions...

I think that it was a genuine effort to answer one of the main viewer questions: who were Adam and Eve? I also believe it was an episode originally conceived from the get go, but maybe not to the level of detail/mythological layered significance it turned out that it needed to be. It did answer that question.

We all know that Time is different on the island. There are several areas in this episode regarding Time that are significant, or at least items of curiosity.

1) FMom didn't seem to age.
2) Jacob and MiB (before MiB and FMom's deaths) appear to have the same agelessness she did.
3) It made me wonder how long MiB was unconscious when FMom bashed his head into the wall of the FDW cave. MiB was in a dark, enclosed space, and then was delivered from there, awakening above ground. There are loads of birth symbolism in this. But when MiB came to from the "flesh wound" he was not only above ground, but the well was filled in. How much time had really passed? How had he gotten above ground? The island has healing properties. Could the island have "healed" the wound -- the dug cavern -- by filling it in itself?
4) How long was FMom Guardian? How did FMom get to the island in the first place? Perhaps, a more pertinently, how did she become the Guardian.
5) How long ago were the statues and structures/temples/wells built?

Why were temples and statues allowed to be built on the island and by whom were they built?
Sometimes this is simply a matter of people "deifying" things they don't understand, and then building items to honor/worship them. The Greek and Roman gods were humanlike in many ways, including their desires to be so honored. Frankly, it was flattering to them to have temples built on their behalf and they took great pride in lording these things over one another. I can get behind the idea of Jacob and MiB wanting this for themselves, catering to a vanity developed over hundreds or thousands of years.

I noticed that when MiB asked "what is dead?", he never received an answer. (The viewing audience has not yet had that question answered either, especially as it relates to the island.)
Instead, the next scene shows the boys chasing the boar. I don't take it to mean that they were hunting it with any intention to kill it but rather it was another "game", a chase.


How did FMom know what the cave with the golden light was?
How did she know it was bad to go near it?

-- one poster noted the thought of MiB getting "flushed".
I saw that too, so you aren't imagining things.
Makes me wonder if Jacob is just a glorified TidyBowl man guarding against that unsightly, smoky-black ring.
Would that make the island the world's toilet bowl?

#167. Posted by: Gumbo at May 12, 2010 7:11 PM

Am I the only one that thinks he/she saw the bigger picture after viewing this episode? According to the producers, the main question yet to be answered about Lost is what is the island. The key line in the episode refers to the golden cave containing something that is in all people a little but can't be taken in great quantity without dire results (worst than death). Like much of great literature, Lost probably isn't always meant to be taken literally. Bear in mind I'm no Bible thumper but I believe the island represents faith in God. When followers "misuse" it (taking too much of it), bad things happen. The writers might be suggesting that wars in the name of religion (a bad thing) are the end result of overdosing on faith. The Others are people who got to the island (found the Lord), believe in it and want to protect it. The Dharma are people who went to the island to study it (scholars studying this thing called religion) who more or less coexist with the believers. And evil is the men who come to the island (faith) to expoit it for gain. All the antics on the island appear to be similar to stories in the bible (coincidence?). Jack, the man of science, leaves the island and immediately goes downhill to the point of attempted suicide. Then, he realizes that he's lost his way (the show's named Lost after all) and knows he has to return to the island (faith). Then, when there, he too becomes a believer (and maybe the future protector). I could go on and on but does this make sense to any one else?

#168. Posted by: glennw at May 12, 2010 7:15 PM

Longish post alert...

@33. Posted by: dennisIf MIB/Flocke has always been on the island how does he know about bombs and wires and how to rig explosives? Did he take a correspondence course?

> i don't know why exactly, but that just made me laugh out loud!
==============
@36. Posted by: RevelationMIB wants to go home. His home is not in the present day, so WTF is he talking about now?

> "home" is across the sea. not a when so much as a where
================
@46. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes Totally think Fmom went in the cave and is a Smokey as well. How else could she do all that damage?

> could she perhaps be the smoke monster that Locke first saw? the one he described as "beautiful"
===============
@57. Posted by: Crispy SeaplanesWhere's Bruce campbell when you need him?

> last i saw of him he was making the crew of the enterprise dance for his amusement! (if we're not thinking of the same actor that was really lame of me) :(
================
@61. Posted by: mac midichlorians debacle in "Phantom Menance

> I've never seen Phantom Menance but gather this is not a good thing!
===================
@85. Posted by: Luke

> Welcome! It may have taken you 3 years to post, but when you did you really hit the nail on the head! We did learn a lot, it's just that we didn't learn everything that everybody wanted to learn. Answers are like a drug. The more you have, the more you want.
=================
@152. Posted by: Revelation . I like suspension of disbelief. and no I never played D&D.

> i am sooooo with you! That is exactly what fiction is all about...buying into the authors world.
=====================
@156. Posted by: undauntid re 815 "wreckage" being planted in the IN THE WRONG FREAKING OCEAN and why no one in the real world thought it at all peculiar.

> and why was Frank's big proof that is wasn't real that the pilot didn't have a wedding band on? Since he was supposed to be the one flying the plane shouldn't he of all people know that it wasn't where it was supposed to be?

#169. Posted by: surefoot at May 12, 2010 7:16 PM

No one has mentioned the odd birth of Jacob. He came out perfect looking. Not all red and gooey, not screaming. He had this sort of calm look on his face. I thought Fmom gave him a disaproving look. or maybe a confused or dissappointed look. Then MIB came out like a normal baby. Red and screaming. She seemed happier about that. This seemed to go along with their later personalities. MIB seemed more human (flawed) while Jacob seemed perfect (dull). I think this is connected to why she thought MIB was her successor/favorite. But I have no idea why.

#170. Posted by: bouds at May 12, 2010 7:21 PM

Another long time lurker, first time poster coming out of the woodwork! I've loved hearing all the comments about mommy dearest. I also thought it strange that "mom" thanked MIB after he killed her, then I woke up with an idea.

I think this whole scenario with the two boys was her own long con. Is it possible that she raised Jacob and MIB to be jealous and turn on each other? She knew that if she favored one (MIB), the other (Jacob) would feel more needy for her love and that need would get him to do what she wanted--replace her as protector of the light. Similarly, she knew MIB had a deep desire to get off the island. By ruining his chances to leave (killing his posse and filling in the well), she knew that MIB would take revenge and kill her, releasing her off the islad and leaving Jacob to protect it and MIB stuck forever...until he can develop his own long con to get off the island.

#171. Posted by: Michelle my belle at May 12, 2010 7:24 PM

hhh

#172. Posted by: jperos at May 12, 2010 7:33 PM

J-Dawg

Laudably terse, but hard to interpret.

#173. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 12, 2010 7:35 PM

I'm wondering if people didn't like this epsiode more because it justified the MIB than because of the acting or anything else. Seriously, I didn't notice the acting issues one iota and the production value's always been the same.

I liked this epsiode plenty, and I've been more than critical of LOST in the past.

#174. Posted by: Brandon Butler at May 12, 2010 7:38 PM

I disagree with a lot of what people thought about this episode. I loved it, so here is another opinion.

I think that crazy mother had no intention of hurting Claudia until she recognized MIB was special. Then she knew he was a candidate and could not let her go with Claudia to be raised. Jacob was just along for the ride. As they were growing up, most of her love was bestowed on MIB because he was the special one.

Unfortunately, MIB's specialness leads him to the truth that crazy mom murdered his real mom, and he been lied to his whole life. So, he tries to save himself and Jacob. Jacob like an idiot has no clue and beats him up.

30 years later MIB makes the mistake of telling crazy mom that he found a way home. Crazy mom watches him use the knife to move the rock and expose the light. I think its possible at this point she sees a way out (death) and manipulates MIB into killing her with the only weapon available. The knife that was exposed to the light. So she knocks him out and kills his people to give him the motivation. Gives Jacob the gift of immortality (Jacob correctly understands that MIB was supposed to get that gift but he is all mom has left), and waits for MIB to stab her with the enchanted knife and then thanks him for doing it. Then Jacob out of revenge takes away his body and humanity. Remember he knows what he is about to do to MIB is worse than death.

Jacob isn't as good as we thought and certainly MIB is not evil at all. At least not before he his humanity was taken.

I like this episode because I hate the cookie cutter stories where good and evil is so clearly defined. Now like in life everything is gray. Evil never thinks they are evil, their actions are always justified.

I also like this episode because we once thought Ben was the master manipulator then scratch that. Then thought well Richard must be, he is so old he must have all the answers. That was wrong too. Then we thought Jacob must be the good one and MIB evil, and now that is not really correct. Whatever you think right now, just wait and it will all be turned upside-down.

#175. Posted by: jpecos at May 12, 2010 7:58 PM

@-mac,
GRAA,
i had zero information about this episode until i watched it tonight, (best way to watch a new epi IMO)
i had resigned myself to think it would be a ben,richard & miles storyline this week as we have gone quite some time since the three musketeers went to mow a meadow or pick up some C4, i forget.
i think this was a "marmite" episode for most fans (love it or hate it)
there is no doubt in my mind that a high percentage of LOST fans will feel disappointed with this episode & the way things are playing out as we reach the end of what has become more than just a tv show,
this blog has provided comments,theories,speculation, sometimes even arguments,
i think i speak for everyone here,
it is a pleasure to be a part of it.

#176. Posted by: san at May 12, 2010 8:13 PM

The episode didn't answer some of the questions I thought it would, but it did reveal a lot. FDW, Adam&Eve, etc. I really enjoyed it and thought the actors, including the younglings, did a good job.

This episode actually gave me back some of my confidence that I will be satisfied when all this is over. There's 3,5 hours left. They're definitely saving the best for last (current events and Island backstory). It's just so hard to be patient as the end draws near, which makes it easy to dismiss this episode as unfulfilling.

It reminds me of when I first played the game Bioshock (which is awesome, as is Bioshock 2). I was so focused on finishing it on my first playthrough, that by the time I was close to the end, I didn't really take the time to enjoy what I was seeing on route anymore, I was just looking for the final revelation/ending. On the second playthrough, I was able to enjoy the entire journey all the more.

Again, I am not able to express myself in English as well as I'd like to.

Lost is gewoon de beste televisieshow aller tijden!

#177. Posted by: Mischa at May 12, 2010 8:38 PM

I've read most of the posts, and despite any deeper meaning that may be present, I have to say that I thought the episode was just cheesy. Ridiculous contumes, questionable acting, poor accents, great holes in logic and consistency, and well...silly and boring. This from one who has loved almost every episode. And Allison Janney looked too much like "Mother Nature" from those old margarine commericals. I expected her to turn around, raise her arms, and say "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature!". I'm hoping for a better last couple of episodes!!

#178. Posted by: Kathy at May 12, 2010 8:42 PM

@139. Posted by: gables79
re: So if I disagree with you I am an old timer?

LoL! I think I was clear that I was joking on this. Nevertheless - what is there to gain from longing for yesteryear?

FYI
There are tons of things that I find flawed with this show, and I rank this season pretty low. I simply realize that there is nothing I can do to change things. It is what it is.
Lamenting about it won't really change anything. It still is going to finish along this thread.

Your choice is to get out the water, go kicking and screaming, or accept and swim with the flow.

I've opted to go with the flow, while letting out the occasional scream.
I'm pretty happy to say that even when screaming, I'm not really all that cheesed.

Like Jack, I've learned to accept that some things are beyond my understanding and my control.

And you know what - I'm cool with that!


@137. Posted by: undauntid
@140. Posted by: Revelation

"I would not be surprised if Desmond contains Smokey in a bottle, be it metaphorical or actual."

Rumour has it this is how MacCutcheon was made! That's why it is so rare and expensive. I'll get my coat....


@142. Posted by: ccc
re: magic and not faith vs. science

Is their really that much of a difference between magic and religion? Neither can be proven, unlike science.
So if they told you all of this came from Egyptian religion, it would totally be cool and the gang? Really?


@144. Posted by: DocH
re: Lost is gametime!

Nice analogy! And while the score is against us, it is too bad so many players are giving up! :(


@147. Posted by: Ja'Fa
re: swaddled in black cloth

That was rather fromage. Did the diaper predetermine his career options?


@149. Posted by: cccc
re: the writers have betrayed their audience

How dramatic! Possibly delusional.
TPTB pursued this because they thought it was the right way to go.
As critical as I am on certain things, it's really not all that bad.
I've seen plenty of other shows that have imploded much worse.
Think "Heroes" S1 Finale, and everything else thereafter.

"as much as we were being told they respected us"

LoL! TPTB are totally flipping you the bird. They hate you, and they are laughing at you.
How dare they!?! Now do your homework, and off to bed.....


@163. Posted by: GatorGal
re: "A little bit of this very same light is inside every man, but they always want more. They can't take it but they would try. And if they tried, they could put it out. And if the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere."

As mentioned before - there might be good reason to beware of Widmore.

#179. Posted by: shikotee at May 12, 2010 8:43 PM

@177 Mischa said:

>Again, I am not able to express myself in English as well as I'd like to.

>Lost is gewoon de beste televisieshow aller tijden!


You're doing just fine. I should do so well in - what is that? - Dutch?

#180. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 12, 2010 8:56 PM

****SPOILER**********


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Next episode, we will see Danielle Rousseau in ALT! Alex will introduce her to Ben.
Ana Lucia is also on the cast list, as is Frank.

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*****END OF SPOILER********

#181. Posted by: Mischa at May 12, 2010 8:57 PM

This last show completely confirms that the writers are just slapping story lines together.
They never knew what the stories were. They created concepts like "Smoke Monster" without knowing or caring what it was or meant.
They were just devices used to create mystery and keep as..oles like us wondering.

#182. Posted by: jake uhb at May 12, 2010 8:58 PM

Yes, Dutch. And thanx :)

#183. Posted by: Mischa at May 12, 2010 8:59 PM

Last night show was revelatory.
I finally figured out that this show is made for the 12-18 demographic.

Hence the contradictory plot lines. Non sensical stories.
Unexplained mysteries.
Bad writing.

I feel like I've been duped.
The show is an assault on the intellect.

It's turned to rubbish.

#184. Posted by: jake uhb at May 12, 2010 9:07 PM

#167. Posted by: Gumbo: ___ I think the answers to several of the questions you ask have been answered not by telling us but by showing us last night. Mom came to the island as Claudia did. She became guardian as Jacob did. She knew about the glowing cave the same way Jacob and MIB did, someone showed her. How long was she a guardian? Probably about as long as Jacob was. I think the point TPTB were trying to make with the statues is that the island has been inhabited for many thousands of years by people of different cultures.

#169. Posted by: surefoot : > and why was Frank's big proof that is wasn't real that the pilot didn't have a wedding band on? Since he was supposed to be the one flying the plane shouldn't he of all people know that it wasn't where it was supposed to be?”
____ Precisely! Frank’s keen powers of observation….he notes “Wait a minute, that isn’t the guy, he doesn’t have a wedding ring on.” But he does NOT say, “What the *&#%$ do they mean the Sundra Trench? ” It just sticks in my craw. Thank you for acknowledging my pain surefoot.

#185. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 9:11 PM

#60. Posted by: mjs at May 12, 2010 9:06 AM
I think there was significance in how MIB killed his mother by not letting her talk to him first (since she was supposedly immortal).

Agree that dagger appeared to be the same one offered to Sayid to kill FLocke.

The adoptive mom seemed to be a reluctant guardian of the light as if bound by some higher authority..always saying "I'm sorry" before causing some sort of mayhem. Also she appeared relieved when killed saying "thank you".

Yes, I had not noticed that, but she did not talk to him.
Yes,I think it's the same dagger.
Yes, she did seem to be reluctant. And she was a woman. I think the first woman we've seen or heard about in that role of island protector.

She also said people come to the island by accident. I think maybe Jacob and MIb were the first to actually bring people to the island. how that happens? I don't know.

------------------------------
#65. Posted by: Paul_C
In which case, the different smoke monster encounters that had different outcomes may have been such because of who (Jacob or MiB) transformed into the smoke monster (a long shot, I know)

I would think that if Ben had been dealing with Jacob trapped in the Cabin surrounded by ash, that all the smoke monster encounters have been with MIB. We don't know when Jacob was put in the cabin. Sometime after it was built by the Dharma leader (forget his name) and maybe around the time of the purge when Ben took over. So has Ben been working with MIB? either knowingly or not?
----------------------
#66. Posted by: mac
Anyway, this will quickly devolve into a debate about science and faith and I'm far too stupid to offer anything useful in that regard. So I'll just leave it at this: I don't want to know everything.

Thanks for the review Mac although I think it was a good epi:)

Science = the group that came to the island with the knowledge and curiosity to question the power of EM.
And Faith = the unquestioning following of fmom's directions. Protect the island at whatever cost.
----------------------
#100. Posted by: addicted

I think this makes sense. that MIB died and the smoke monster was a separate entity that took over his body.This would make sense of Claudia appearing to MIB. It was smoke monster using her body.

Question. Was the Knife that killed mom the one that MIB let fly to the well? Maybe it has some polarizing effect from the light and makes it able to kill the guardian of the light? That does not make sense, does it?
--------------------
#115. Posted by: TS
Thanks for the info on SHambala.

------------------------
#131. Posted by: Revelation
Acting out in order of the experiences and in full compliance with the smoke thing's primary function, Smokie erupts from the cave and immediately smashes the threat of the evil corrupt men. It was not until after the automatic reflex to protect was satisfied, that the passions and desires of the absorbed MIB essence came to the forefront.

I like this. The smoke monster is learning form the men who come ,make war and die,and it always ends the same. So maybe the smoke monster , as a security system has the ability to let man survive or destroy him. If he gets loose - leaves the island - He will destroy all mankind as he has learned that man is bad and a danger to the light. I would happy with this scenario.

#186. Posted by: berkyo at May 12, 2010 9:26 PM

#179. Posted by: shikotee: “Rumour has it this is how MacCutcheon was made! That's why it is so rare and expensive. I'll get my coat....” ____lol… that's what I call a smokey scotch!

#187. Posted by: undauntid at May 12, 2010 9:31 PM

Brain cells are clicking all over the place and I can't seem to settle them in one direction. My son says this show takes you wherever you want it to take you. Science, religion, astrology, history whatever your interest you can travel there throughout this show.

The blog seems to prove his point. Every time I think someone 'has it' the next message takes me in a different direction and I want to then follow that thought process. This is one ride I do not want to get off of.

Anyway, thinking about the scene where Jacob offers MIB the wine bottle - if this scene took place prior to MIB's death, maybe Jacob was offering his brother to join him in watching over the island or possibly tricking him to take over so Jacob could leave. Otherwise, if the MIB was already dead, why offer food to someone who doesn't eat. Either way, Jacob was insulting his brother.

Maybe the MIB has a lesson to learn also and that the grass is not greener on the other side. Maybe he needs to learn that there really is no place like home. Curiously killed the cat. The farm boy in the big city. That kind of thing. Everyone else seems to need to learn a lesson, why not the MIB?

Why must he be destroyed?

Maybe he's killing the candidates so that they will not be stuck on the island for 100's of years. He's actually doing them a favor.

Is it possible over the years that he's found a way to kill off the babies so that history does not repeat itself?

I am also leaning towards Desmond taking Locke 'into the light." They've proven he's the only one that the magnetic energy doesn't have an effect on.

Does anyone have a list of the episodes that have been shown twice? I often wondered why those specific shows were picked. Maybe they have a 'big' clue that we've missed. I don't have a lot of feelings one way or the other about Richard's big reveal but I find it interesting that it was shown twice. I feel I missed something.

I do think this episode was needed even if people didn't get a kick out of it. We have had this type before. They lay the groundwork for something much larger to come.

Thanks for listening!

#188. Posted by: pebspostal at May 12, 2010 9:32 PM

@170. Posted by: bouds: "No one has mentioned the odd birth of Jacob. He came out perfect looking. Not all red and gooey, not screaming." I mentioned it, sort of, @117.

#189. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 9:49 PM

I finally got it! It's been rattling around in my memory, eluding retrieval. The last time we saw the glowing light in the cave it was in the briefcase being carried around by John Travolta and Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction. I knew I had seen it somewhere before. Now I understand...

#190. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 10:04 PM

I thought the episode was pretty good, but my expectations were way too high, so like many of you I was disappointed.

I'm also a little upset about the Adam and Eve reveal, if only because TPTB have pointed to that whole thing as evidence that they had the show's mythology basically plotted out in season 1. Sorry, but there wasn't anything in the episode that made me think, "gee, they must have had this in mind in when Jack and Kate stumbled on the bodies." If anything, Jack's "I'd say about they've been dead at least 30 years" is proof that they didn't have this planned out.

Actually, I've always thought that TPTB didn't really work out the show's mythology until seasons 2 & 3, but held out some hope based on Adam and Eve that they had some of it in mind since the beginning. Now I don't really think so.

I guess a positive spin on this is that TPTB have done a great job of getting out of most of the corners they painted themselves into during that first season. It's impressive, really.

#191. Posted by: CDog at May 12, 2010 10:13 PM

@190 August Paul:

Or in the trunk of the car in the original "Repo Man"

#192. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 12, 2010 10:15 PM

@175. Posted by: jpecos Nice analysis. Like the enchanted knife idea.

#193. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 10:17 PM

@176. Posted by: san re "marmite episode" The first time I had marmite was for breakfast on a baguette while driving south through France half a century ago. I threw up.

This episode sat better.

#194. Posted by: August Paul at May 12, 2010 10:22 PM

Changing topics a bit...

For those who followed the summer LOST experience a few years back it talked about how the numbers were the constants in the Valenzetti equation that "predicts the exact number of years and months until humanity extinguishes itself". DHARMA was actually doing experiments to change the constants and failed. Perhaps this ties in with the "light going out" due to mankind's negative traits.

Each of these last candidates was also assigned a number from the equation. Has Jack "changed" enough? (or another candidate) to prevent the date from arriving. As Jacob said "it only ends once the rest is just progress".

p.s. We all would have felt cheated without a Jacob and MIB backstory episode. This is a TV show produced on a budget and tight timeline. TPTB talk in their podcast about only having 2 weeks to edit the feature length finale when a film would have 5 months. We have such incredibly high standards but TV has limits.

p.p.s. We all have to remember that the answers we seek are not "real" and only exist when the writers think of them and if they think of them. They have created such an incredibly deep and detailed world that it is hard not to think they are withholding critical information as if it had already really happened.

No matter what anyone says - JJ Abrams for thinking of the story and Lindelof and Cuse for running with it - these men are GENIUSES and I am eternally grateful already!!!

#195. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at May 12, 2010 10:45 PM

I have to put my vote in the negative column. As with the Richard episode there was almost no point in the show. If this show hadn't aired, would you feel like those mysteries should have been addressed? Was the identity of Adam & Eve the biggest question we had? I feel that with the happy ending timeline and two episodes exploring the far reaches of island history, the writers simply did not have enough ideas to flesh out a whole season. I personally would have been happier if they just did a half season of the main characters (and hangers on) and finished up the show. I have been very disappointed in most of the season especially since the last two episodes got us back to running willy nilly around the island which was part of the fun of the first five seasons.

I agree with Mac that they are not going to answer all our questions but at this point they should be getting down to the nitty gritty not telling me that MIB's got mommy issues.

#196. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at May 12, 2010 11:07 PM

@ mac 61

I think that the epi as a whole wsàas important and worth watching but it was out of sequence.

Darleton aren't (isn't ?) perfect and I think having this epi NOW was wrong...I believe it would of made a great season premier and knowing everything we learned tonight wouldn't really have changed much for th rest of the season.

#197. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at May 12, 2010 11:18 PM

Trying to reconcile the two most significant quotes from the JacoBrother episodes:

"A little bit of this very same light is inside every man, but they always want more. They can't take it but they would try. And if they tried, they could put it out. And if the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere." (CJ)

and

"It only ends once. Everything that comes before is just progress." (Jacob)

The first time we heard Jacob's quote, I thought he meant everything else was progress *towards* the end. But it seems more and more clear that it's not the end is not the culmination of a process, but the destruction of the world. Hold off the end, and mankind progresses, until it goes BOOM.

Harness a little atom, OK, but don't build a bomb. Drill a little oil, OK, but not somewhere you can't contain an accident. Decode a little genome, OK, but don't reduce everyone to a score etc...

Looking at the sides of the bet, Jacob thinks human nature will recognize the limits, while the Bad Twin, sees no hope.

One of the core mysteries for me has always been why the Others were so immediately and intensely hostile to every set of visitors. Was it a plot device, or part of the essential nature of the island? Now, it looks like crazy is hereditary, and the paranoia is consistent.

Sure, in the next 3.5 hours there are Rules to be invented and discovered, and we probably got no closer today to understanding Alt, but all in all I'm pretty satisfied with an episode that laid out, not who Adam and Eve are, but the fundamental nature of the struggle underlying the entire series. Yeah, pretty satisfied.

#198. Posted by: LockeBox at May 12, 2010 11:25 PM

#181. Posted by: Mischa

*****SPOILER*****


This must have something to do with an item in EW a couple weeks ago which said Ben would be having a surprise romance. Thought at the time that it was talking about Ilana--an expansion of her "I'll take you" line and after she blew up I figured it was just a piece of misinformation. Certainly in the penultimate episode they would have something more important than Ban having a romance. And yet now Ben is meeting Rousseau in the Alt???
How can they wrap up in 3.5 hours if they keep dilly dallying like this???


*****End SPOILER*****

#199. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 12, 2010 11:44 PM

EXTREMELY LONG POST ALERT!

Ah what an episode! And what a great blog we are all a part of! Readers and posters together, with mac at the helm! It tears me up that this is all going to end soon.

But with just a few brief hours to go, I feel I have to share my thoughts, as I truly believe this was a great episode, and would love to put a different spin on all that frustration we are all feeling (precisely because of episodes like these!) Hope it cheers us all up...

I, for one, love the fact that the rug is being pulled so completely from under us here:

Think its about the castaways? WRONG!
Think it's about the others? WRONG!
Think it's about puppeteers like Widmore and Ben? WRONG!
and now, thanks mainly to this episode,
Even think it’s about Jacob and MIB? WRONG! WRONG! MOST DECIDEDLY WRONG!

And goodness knows I feel the pain of everyone who wants there to be closure. Don't we all, right? After all, we've invested 6 bloody years with this show! And the deeper Darlton dig themselves, and us, into a hole (or should that be well?) the more divine frustration we feel. No-one can pull this off, surely? - or can they? But it’s only in this season that I've really come to believe that the only way they can satisfy us all is by keeping the mystery intact. In fact, by making Mystery the very POINT of the show. Watching JJ Abrams' TED speech about the Mystery Box the other week sealed this for me. (If you haven't looked yet, do check this out.) To honour the Mystery/Journey, as people have been saying, we simply CAN'T open the box! And yet a good story demands that we get closure too. What a fantastic problem to keep us all hooked!

Especially if the story appears to be saying that we should embrace our destiny wherever it leads. I think, deep down, that this is why I’m loving season6 so much – and the more fickle and bitchy Destiny/Darlton get, the more I’m lapping it up. Sayid’s arc is so dramatic – so let’s turn him into a zombie and then blow him up! Sun and Jin finally get back together – so let’s kill them for no particular reason! Ben’s the arch villain – so let’s neuter him! And poor Immortal Richard – let’s give him his moment and then completely forget about him! Aren’t we all just working out, on our sofas and in this blog (and at about the same pace as Jack, which is worrying) that this whole journey makes increasingly, and exponentially, less sense as we go along? And as viewers we have the extra frisson of knowing that even the story we have been embracing for the past 6 years is being pulled away from us, piece by piece, thanks to the Sideways world. All we had to hold onto, until last night’s episode, was the ultimate safety net provided by Jacob, MIB and the Rules that bind them, and us, to the island and all its ways. And, boy, didn’t Darlton just blow that completely out of the water... They were just kids after all! And their mum was a whack-job! And as all our posts are showing, deep down none of us have any clue what on earth was happening with the 3 of them! And, as far as I’m concerned, here’s the kicker, here’s the genius and winning move by Darlton: as all this is so far away from our characters, in both time and meaning, WE WILL NEVER EVER FIND OUT. Why does Smokey want to go home? Who knows any more. And how on earth did the island voices ever get imprisoned there? Only the island knows, and after this episode it looks like it’s never going to tell us. And, really now, who could possibly care at this point? We are all so deep down the rabbit hole, there’s no going back. All we can do, any of us, is move forward and accept our lot. Our destiny – to finish the journey, however F**d up it gets.

Darlton managed to find a way to not just show us all of this, but make us feel it too. By the very way they’ve structured the show. And hats off to ‘em, I say. Fantastic job.

Sorry for the long post everyone. But I was so moved by your responses to this episode I just had to share my thoughts and see what you think. Namaste!

#200. Posted by: Fellow Traveller at May 12, 2010 11:53 PM

@200. Fellow Traveller: "what a long strange trip it's been" (paraphrasing)

YES - Andy Kaufman was *funny* because he did something new and incredible, and LOST has a shot at greatness because it's not just filling in a simple plot arc.

(But it also still has a shot at blowing it.)

#201. Posted by: LockeBox at May 13, 2010 12:01 AM

@201. LockeBox

And isn't that the fun part?

For all of us?

1 minute to go, and 2 goals down...
Give up? Or play on?

#202. Posted by: Fellow Traveller at May 13, 2010 12:05 AM

Can't say I understand the personal, emotional distress this episode has caused some posters- “Lost has lost its soul?” “I feel completely betrayed!” “They’re making this up as they go along!”

The key element in this show was not the reveal of the Adam and Eve skeletons, or that Jacob was a twin, or even that Smokey emerged from the Other Brother being dumped into the energy source- most of those plot elements have been speculated here over the last year.

I think the big reveal was that Jacob is merely a piece in a chain- that there was a protector before him, and possibly a protector before her, and so on and so on.

But who brought these protectors to the island in the first place? Who gave them their ability to live centuries without aging, to forsee the future, or to call others to the island? Who gave the Mother the power to wipe out a single village of people single-handed, all without a weapon? Or if she didn’t kill the villagers, who/what did?

These answers are deliberately ambiguous, and seemingly takes us deep into the realm of magic or the supernatural.

@142/ccc: “Now we have "magic". When did this show become about magic and not faith vs. science.”

Actually, from the first episode of the first season. And what’s the difference between magic and faith, or magic and science? As Arthur C. Clarke wrote, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.

@102/Gator Gal: ”So hundreds of years, lots of death and destruction and massive amounts of lying have all been to protect a cave of light? Seriously?”

Your taking this way too literally. The “cave of light” is simply a visual manifestation of the massive energy that is the foundation of the island- energy that the Mother described as the force that supports all life (as several posters have already referenced, major shout out by D&C to Star Wars).

Several seasons ago, we were actively debating here whether the island- the energy- actually had a consciousness, and if so, what that meant.

That conversation dried up with the introduction of Jacob and the MIB, but just as Lost pulled back from the Castaways to reveal Dharma, and pulled back again from Dharma to reveal Ben and the Others, and pulled back again from Ben’s people to reveal Widmore and Hawking, and then pulled back again even further to reveal Jacob and the MIB, and now has pulled back even further to reveal the Mother- we are left with the question of not only where is the beginning, but even is there a beginning at all?

If the energy/island does have a consciousness- if somehow it pulls the guardians to it, grants them agelessness, the power of far sight, the power to heal, and the power to make the island visible to selected newcomers, what do you call unlimited, aware energy? In “A Brief History of Time”, Stephen Hawking called it the “Mind of God”.

The show is not going to answer those questions- it is up to each of us to decipher the meaning for ourselves, whether we want to travel down a mystical, spiritual interpretation (as the builders of the Temple did), or a scientific one (as Dharma and others have attempted to harnass and understand the energy).

But to accuse TPTB of changing the rules, or of somehow misleading the audience is ridiculous. If you don’t like where it is going, no problem- but they are ending up exactly where they intended, for better or worse. D&C are swinging for the fences- laying down a modern day myth that plays with the Big Stuff: the meaning of human nature, time, life, God, good and evil, etc.

For this story, evil does exists in the universe- just as we don’t know exactly how/why Randall Flagg, Sauron, Voldemort, the Emperor Palpatine, etc. get their powers, for the sake of the story we accept that they do, and that good- common, everyday characters thrust into a magical world- Larry Underwood, Frodo, Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, etc. must face their fears and rise up to defeat them.

On that last topic, many posters still want to argue whether MIB is evil or not- @36/Revelation, @46/Crispy Seaplanes, etc.- but there really can’t be any debate on this topic. Just last week, Cuse gave an interview flatly stating that this was so, and emphatically reaffirmed there was no ambiguity to this issue. Given the stance the creators and writers are taking on this topic, I believe we have to take their word that MIB is evil is 100% canon at this point.

I think posters here are confusing the human story of Jacob’s brother- his childhood, the influence of his “Mother”, his desire to leave the island- with the energy known as Smokey. Smokey/Flocke/MIB is not a “he”, it is an “it”. Jacob’s brother is clearly dead, which was the whole point of revealing his decomposed body as “Adam”. While Smokey may retain some of the Brother’s consciousness and memories- that does not make it human or even partially human.

Harley @76 did an excellent job making this case already, and that post is well worth reading.

#203. Posted by: Mizzed at May 13, 2010 12:32 AM

I cannot stop thinking about Smokie in the bottle and my vision of I dream of jeanie. it fits perfectly with my theory that smokie's secondary function when not having to be the security system plays protector/provider of what you need.
I gave a few examples before.
Jeanie gives major nelson what he needs, and appears to him in a form that he desirtes. besides, she also starts as smoke.
I may digress, but it is interesting.

#204. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 12:37 AM

@203. Posted by: Mizzed

I respect your position on the good evil theme here as it pertains to TPTB and their sworn testimonials. I only go by what is actually shown. Besides it make the speculation a little more interesting for me.

I totally agree with your / Harley's reference to it being an entity other then human. This is why I differentiate the smoke thing from MIB. The smoke thing appears as MIB for the most part to provide Jacob with companionship because at times that is what he needs. MIB died at his brother's hands. MIB killed the mother that murdered his Mother and as such I did not deem him an evil man. He is however, gone!

#205. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 12:47 AM

Some of the confusion over Lost is (by design) its refusal to fall into a distinct genre, causing much speculation and debate over what kind of show Lost actually is (the most obvious question being is Lost a fantasy or a science fiction show). If we had a definitive answer to the question of what kind of show Lost is, we'd then have an established framework by which to understand and judge it in normal TV terms. I'm grateful that the show remains so ambiguous, because as long as it does, it transcends genres. On the other hand, all the genre morphing does get frustrating. The longer the show has continued, the more the likely core explanation has swung from a science fiction vibe to a mostly fantasy one. But with the introduction of the Jacob/MIB storyline, it seems the show is actually more based in magical realism, like The Twilight Zone, where things "just happened" but the characters reactions were more important than the explanations for all the odd goings on. I've long thought of Lost was a bit like what might happen if the entire Twilight Zone TV series was adapted into a single story across multiple seasons... and the ending will probably follow in the TZ tradition as well... some kind of mindwarping irony... some of it will be tragic and agonzing, I'm sure... Jack will have to live for 6000 years on the island as its protector, but alone, and Kate will be the next smoke monster... something really messed up!

#206. Posted by: Pete at May 13, 2010 2:35 AM

@203 - Mizzed. I just realized that I did not complete my post. you stated empirically that "I believe we have to take their word that MIB is evil is 100% canon at this point."

With this I take issue for two reasons. The first is that what they say outside the broadcast is NOT cannon. the second is that MIB is nothing. He is and has been Dead. When alive and human, he was just that... human. He was never evil. He revenges the death of his mother and so on.

Now I emphatically disagree that the smoke monster is evil. The smoke thing is the security system. when a disease infest the island, the security system eradicates it. Penicillin is not evil, nor is it passionate. it simply does what it does due it's inherent nature. If you are a bacterial infection, then you would view penicillin as evil; I will grant you that.

Please know that I hold you and your postulations in highest regard. I humbly submit my argument.

#207. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 2:50 AM

@200. Posted by: Fellow Traveller

99% with ya.

great post. I do think I might know why smokie wants to go home. read my post above about smokie and trying to meet the needs of MIb/absorbing the essence of MIB.

Again loved the post.

#208. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 3:01 AM

@208. Revelation.

Thanks for the kind words. Loved your theory! And all the ones posted that completely disagreed with it! (But do we really want an answer to Smokey? He seems so confused and pissed right now, do we really want to go there?)

And Mizzed you hit it bang on in @203: with all these nested loops, there's no chance we can ever get to the Truth of it All! As every actor depends on assumptions/Rules that depend on other actors who have their own assumptions, and so on down the line, through time...

As we go through the trials of season 6, trying to make sense of it all...

As Faith and Reason both degenerate into something else entirely...

All we are left with is something so basic, so human, and yet really worth holding onto -

for both the characters on the show,
and for us at home, watching and, more importantly, just living our lives -

Keep on Keeeping On, Brutha.
Just Keep on Keeping On.

2 episodes to go, and these feelings are still surging through us. All that despair! All that hope!

The Boys done Good! 3 cheers for Darlton! Hip hip!

#209. Posted by: Fellow Traveller at May 13, 2010 8:04 AM

@209/Fellow Traveler: "Keep on Keeeping On, Brutha. Just Keep on Keeping On."

I agree. The irony to Lost is that the creators' preference is to focus on the characters and leave the mythology in the background.

But the fans want more mythology, more answers, more flashbacks. When that happens, as Mac pointed out, the episodes away from the core characters are almost weaker than normal. That leads to the dozens of messages on blogs like this where viewers are almost hysterically bitter.

For all of its weaknesses, Lost is unique in tv history and will be dearly missed when it is gone. Has there ever been a show where so many of its core fans were so eager to repeatedly tear it to shreds?

@207/Revelation: "Now I emphatically disagree that the smoke monster is evil. The smoke thing is the security system. when a disease infest the island, the security system eradicates it. Penicillin is not evil, nor is it passionate. it simply does what it does due it's inherent nature."

The difference between Smokey and a fire that consumes a forest, or an infection that destroys its host, is that Smokey has intelligence, a conscious mind. It has free will and has chosen a path that will lead to death and destruction.

The notion of Smokey as a security system was planted by Rousseau, a hermit who lived her life in hiding and was completely ignorant of Dharma, the true nature of the Others, Jacob, etc.

In the very first episodes of the series, Smokey observes the survivors on the perimeter of the beach, but does not attack. While it does kill the pilot, the remaining survivors are so comfortable entering the jungle, they set up a second camp in the island interior, and are having a golf tournament in the hills by mid-season.

The survivors of the tail section are completely unaware of Smokey's presence- they even cross the entire length of the island with no interactions.

Why are the Oceanic survivors not a parasite or invader which initiates a "security system"? Because Smokey's prime initiative is not to protect the island, but to kill Jacob and the candidates.

It immediately observes and selects the survivors on the beach. The very first time Locke ventures into the jungle, he is "scanned" by Smokey. Soon after, Locke is led by "a feeling" to discover the hatch.

In fact the entire discovery process around Dharma- the Swan, the Pearl, the Arrow, and ultimately the barracks and the Looking Glass- happens because Locke and Eko are led through visions and dreams to those points.

Those discoveries have to happen so that the Swan is imploded, the Looking Glass jamming station turned off, Locke can be positioned as the new leader of the Others, and ultimately, so the FDW can be turned.

And while Smokey is leading Locke and Eko around through his appearances as Yemi, it also appears as Christian to Jack.

Smokey claims this was to assist the survivors in finding water. But we have already seen that Smokey/MIB is manipulative and a liar, a Ben Linus on steroids.

Leading Jack to the caves was done so Jack would find Christian's empty coffin, not fresh water. Smokey appeared as Christian to push Jack's emotional buttons around his father.

The entire con around "Christian's spirit is on the island" was designed to manipulate Jack to return to the island with Locke's body, so that the other side of the con- convincing Richard that Locke was the new Others leader- could be pulled off.

The side benefit of appearing as Christian? Pulling Claire away from the group, which led to Kate's return (and again, helped influence Jack).

The entire plotline of the first several seasons can be viewed as Smokey's loophole plan- a premeditated plot to commit murder. Even Ben's miraculous cancer on an island where cancer doesn't exist is part of that long con.

I respect your passion on this issue, but does that sound like a security system in action, or penicillin?

#210. Posted by: Mizzed at May 13, 2010 9:28 AM

@210 - Mizzed.

"I respect your passion on this issue, but does that sound like a security system in action, or penicillin?"

If I were to attribute human traits to a thing then no it does not sound like a security system.

If we stop assigning human traits to a non-human thing then what is left is a machine that does exactly what it is designed to do.

I hope we get a definitive answer on this, but if not I can say it has been a spirited debate. I thank you for your thoughts on this and other issues. You have really made me think!!

#211. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 9:40 AM

Lost Web Comics! Click my name....

Jacob and MIB = Goofus and Gallant

#212. Posted by: shikotee at May 13, 2010 9:49 AM

The way off the island....

#213. Posted by: shikotee at May 13, 2010 9:51 AM

Names, names, names.....

#214. Posted by: shikotee at May 13, 2010 9:52 AM

The best name ever....

#215. Posted by: shikotee at May 13, 2010 9:53 AM

Great review, mac, and thanks for all the interesting comments.

This episode confirms that Jacob isn't aware of the big picture.

I agree that MIB is just one of smoke monster's victims. Thereby, MIB has become a part of the smoke monster, but he's not the smoke monster itself.

I'm not sure if the smoke monster always wanted to leave the Island or if this is a direct result of assimilating MIB.

I think there have been strong hints in previous episodes that the smoke monster draws its power from the Island's light/energy.

Does this also mean that the protector of the Island actually has two responsibilities? (to protect the light/energy from the humans AND to keep the smoke monster from leaving the Island)

Maybe Jacob's responsibilities should be split:

Job 1: Desmond would make an excellent protector of the Island's energy, since he has previous job experience from the hatch. Desmond also has demonstrated great resistance to large amounts of electromagnetic energy. Give the man some Scotch instead of wine and he'll gladly do the job. Maybe Jacob has already read Desmond's resume.

Job 2: maybe the candidates would be able to convince the smoke monster not to leave the Island. All candidates have experience in leaving the Island and most of them eventually chose to come back because life was not so great "across the sea".

#216. Posted by: Margot at May 13, 2010 10:00 AM

one of the biggest points when fommy told her boys that she made it so that they can never hurt each other. So I see why MIB can't hurt Jacob and that Jacob wasn't the one that killed MIB. MIB was already dead when fommy knocked his head.

There is no way either Jacob or fommy could fill in that well and kill all those people as humans. From what I believe they are all smokeys. When MIB's body was sent into the light it let the smokey out of him. That is why fommy told Jacob to never go into the light, she knows that the smokey she put into them would leave and they'd become unprotected.

#217. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 13, 2010 10:38 AM

A few thoughts....

re: The ghost of Claudia

Don't recall if this was mentioned, but upon rewatching, I noticed that her ghost was initially standing in a spotlight, which seems to be a link to the island lightforce. Have we seen this spotlight with any previous ghosts?


re: Does smokey really still want to leave?

Many posters here have questioned MIB's logic for wanting to leave the island (ie so much time has passed - what is there for him?).

I wonder if his end-goal is to cease to exist? Both his immortality and his confinement are like a curse - I wonder if what he craves most is to be able to mutter the words "Thank you" to the person who gives him peace.

I wonder if this is part of Jacob's succession plan - to help undo the curse that he bestowed upon his brother. Furthermore, when the succession finally takes place, will history repeat itself? Will the new guardian end up sacrificing someone close (in a fit of anger), and thus create a new smokey to replace MIB?

The destruction of the village and the well certainly leaves the impression that this was the work of a smokey. Perhaps FMama also had a friend/relative who she was responsible for converting into smokey? This wouldn't surprise me, considering all of the repetition we have experienced.


re: will the outcome from the finale be a sunken island, and what will that mean?

I've mentioned several times that water is not kryptonite. It seems that there could be more to it than meets the eye.

MIB was chucked into the stream that flowed into the light source, and his body was flushed out. While constructing the donkey wheel, it was mentioned that it is powered via a combo of water and light. We've seen how water played a role in keeping smokey from entering Dharmaville. Water is powerful stuff, I guess.

We saw that this island was sunk in the S6 premiere, which lead us to believe this was caused by the explosion of Jughead. Not sure if this is the actual case. I have to wonder if sinking the island is part of Jacob's plan to help protect the lightforce, and also to free his brother. Is the whole replacement thing a ruse?

Hmmmmmm.....

#218. Posted by: shikotee at May 13, 2010 10:42 AM

Is protecting the island a bit like pushing the button? Your told it's important so you do it but you never really understand why.

#219. Posted by: PZ at May 13, 2010 10:57 AM

One thing I don't agree with you Mac is about the show not being good when the core actors aren't on it. The pace of this episode was great and I love the perspective episodes. To be quite honest, both sawyer and kate drive me nuts. Can't stand the characters. I know that the actor that plays sawyer does an awesome job at making sure you do hate/love him. But kate, ah kate, not sure if it's the character or actress that bothers me, but both do anyways.
The only thing I am really not liking about this season is that the scientific angle has been thrown out for more of a religious/myth type theme. Why is time on the island different? Why are things not in real time? Those questions asked by Farrady aren't ever going to be answered.

But I do agree with you. The more answers I get the more I don't want answers. I am happy with not knowing everything because it seems then I'll be disappointed. I'm happy with the writers leaving some mystery for us.

The true answer will be the one to Charlie's question.

"Guys, Where are we?"

#220. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 13, 2010 10:59 AM

The lamest thing yet in all 6 season was when MIB told his mom that he was going to stick this wheel in there and have water join the light and turn it. And she asked how do you know all this and he says that he's special. WTF!!!

That was the dumbest scene in the history of LOST. Really? Was that supposed to be an answer to the donkey wheel. By the way. Where did they find this metal donkey wheel on the island?

#221. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 13, 2010 11:04 AM

Click my name for a link to a D&C interview about "Across the Sea".

** Possible mild mini-spoilers. **

#222. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 13, 2010 11:06 AM

#203. Posted by: Mizzed: Beautifully said!

Fellow Traveller @200 & 209: I like your style.

#207. Posted by: Revelation : “....the second is that MIB is nothing. He is and has been Dead. When alive and human, he was just that... human. He was never evil. He revenges the death of his mother and so on.
Now I emphatically disagree that the smoke monster is evil. The smoke thing is the security system. when a disease infest the island, the security system eradicates it. Penicillin is not evil, nor is it passionate. it simply does what it does due it's inherent nature. If you are a bacterial infection, then you would view penicillin as evil; I will grant you that.”

___ MIB is not nothing! Smokey and MIB, for whatever reason, are joined as one. Smokey/Flocke expressed such a malignant resentment against Jacob for taking his body and his humanity that he/it actually orchestrated Jacob’s murder. Smokey/Flocke expresses MIB’s desire to “go home”. They are joined. I don’t know how or why, doesn’t matter.
MIB is not “evil” because he committed a murder, he is “evil” because he feels it was justified and he continues to harbor the rage and resentment for 2000 years and counting. He is self absorbed and having a very dangerous tantrum…that is what makes him “evil”.
It just occurred to me that perhaps we do know how they are joined. If the glowing cavern is “The Source” of all and the light is good…..perhaps Smokey scans and sorts the acts of people it comes in contact with, retaining the “evil” and sending the good onto the light. At least that would explain why Smokey can express MIB’s desire to leave the island while also expressing Locke’s lifelong frustration by yelling, “Don’t tell me what I can’t do”.
Could it be that the danger with regard to safekeeping The Light is that far more negative actions are sorted and absorbed than positive actions?
Mom’s comment to Jacob & MIB about The Light and “People always want more” made me think about this: The Bahai Faith has a splendid explanation about people and good and evil. It says that there are 19 attributes of God (Light, Mercy, Knowledge, Power, etc ) all of which are good. Each human being is born with all the attributes. However, we do not have each attribute in equal measures. So none of the attributes is “evil”, it is too much of one good thing and/or too little of another good thing that causes us to behave poorly. Will is a good thing, but too much becomes stubbornness and that is not a good thing. If someone has a large measure of power and a very small measure of mercy and justice, one has the makings of a despot. The job of the parent is to discern which attribute their child has too much of and which they have too little of, and to teach the child to bring things into balance.

#223. Posted by: undauntid at May 13, 2010 11:17 AM

@221 - ALEX_ANGEL

Surprised that you had a problem with that scene. We know that the Donkey wheel, which I thought looked like wood, actually worked! I think MIB was mocking his fake mom when she asked the question. it was FMom that told him how special he was. Besides why not take the opportunity to remind her that the one who stayed with her is a dim dullard.

BTW - I couldn't agree with you more about Kate.

#224. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 11:18 AM

I've read the comments on her for years, and for years I see alot of people complaining were not getting any answers.... now everyone is complaining about too much info? I think i'm in an alternate reality!

Then the complaints rolled in that while the story arcs for most characters were good, they didn't understand why we couldn't see back stories on jacob/ben/etc/etc. Ok so we got that now. Now the episode was unnecessary. Uhm it was? For one i wanted to know.

Maybe the episode isn't as good as we thought it would be, but ultimately you watch the show because it's interesting, the characters are interesting and it's been a good 6 years.

Must like the point of this episode, humans are never happy with what they have, they always want more. Can we make that a new key point?

To me, from reading the issues everyone has, they are all different! Honestly I can't fathom a senerio where the producers actually pleased even 60% of the watchers.

If everyone is so upset about it, then don't watch the rest. For me, I understand the show isn't actually real and it's just a sci fi story that mixes in as much reality as possible, so i take things that aren't that great with a grain of salt, because it's still mostly great.

In what reality is everyone tied up in a neat little bow and presented to us? Our work, our love lives, our friends, everything is complicated and not black and white. Everything in our own lives is vague and we have to make our what we want from it.

Anyway, I thought the episode was overall good, i wanted to know about jacob and MIB, and i don't need to know how the island got there and what it does, it's a mystery. I'd also like proof if god exists, i mean it's life, we don't get those answers delivered to our tv screen.

Sorry to vent, i really do like reading everyone's posts on here, but today it took me back (and the whining has been a slow rolling clap)

I'm still looking forward to the end, and i hope at least some people out there can sit back and enjoy it also!

#225. Posted by: Quite Visible Jacob at May 13, 2010 11:51 AM

@223 - undauntid
we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I have to admit that by your logic, I am "Evil" too. I believe MIB was asolutely justified in killing the psychopathic woman who murdered his mother and stole his life.

If I found out that, like he did, what had really happened, I don't think that any force of dark or light could keep me from leaving.

IMO - MIB, Christian,and John Locke are all dead and gone as we know them. Only their essence, the spirit lives on. Remember smokey in Lockes form tells ben about John Lockes final thoughts. Literally he final thoughts. John Locke is no more.

#226. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 11:53 AM

@224.

The problem I had is somehow they figured out that adding water and light would somehow make something happen and that adding this big wheel would do the trick. It just seemed real strange.

#227. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 13, 2010 12:17 PM

@227 - ALEX_ANGEL - Fair enough! I am just so used to taking LOST things at face value that I just let that go as part of something MIB needed, so he knew how to do it. He was "special".

#228. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 12:22 PM

This episode reminds me of the Star Wars prequels in a way. People loved Star Wars for decades and had latched on to little nuggets about the history of the Skywalker family and the Clone Wars and built their own vision in their heads as to what they thought happened and how it would look.
Ultimately it was Lucas' vision and maybe part of the problem was he waited too long to put out those three newer movies. By then we as fans had taken ownership of that universe and invested ourselves in it. When he finally showed us what we had imagined for so many years and it didn't quite match the vision we had, many of us said the prequels weren't any good. I wonder if he'd done them in the late 80's or early 90's if the backlash would have been as great.
Same here on a smaller scale. We were given a lot of time to chew on the mysteries and on the Jacob/MIB storyline. We imagined what we thought it was all about and took ownership of it. By the time the producers showed us their vision and it didn't match...well a lot of us were disappointed. I have to wander if they had done this episode in the beginning of the season if the reaction would have been as strong.
Course then we would all complain because we would be forced to wait to see the results of whether the bomb went off or not.
So ultimately as Star Wars was Lucas' baby, much as we felt possessive of it, so too Lost is Darlton's baby and we can enjoy it for what it is or not.

#229. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 13, 2010 1:36 PM

Ideally, this week's episode will be one that, for the most part, won't be important to the overall character-driven nature of the show. For me, Across The Sea almost played out like a televised version of one of those Lost Experience online games. The things we learned are canon, and they help to shed light on some things, but ultimately the show isn't about MIB, Jacob, Adam & Eve or even the Island itself.

If they pull off a spectacular finale, this episode could probably be skipped over on subsequent viewings and when showing the series to friends. My hope is that it can be treated similarly to the deleted scenes from Back To The Future that show how Marty had a walkman and hair dryer for his "Darth Vader" getup.

Oh, and to wager an answer on Mac's question on "how [Jacob] went from a wide-eyed and kinda dumb rube to the smirking, semi-omniscient character we've come to know," a couple of millennia of seeing people come to the island, kill, destroy, etc. probably gives a person a good idea of human nature and how to manipulate it.

#230. Posted by: James at May 13, 2010 1:51 PM

@222 Cecil Rose:
Thanks for the link. A few dissapointing quotes from the interview.


*****SPOILERISH********

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Damon:
‘Usually, when we get criticisms, it's along the lines of, "I really wish you hadn't done that." Or "I wish it had been different." And you throw it back at them and ask, "Well, what did you want it to be?" And they say, "I wanted to see the statue built," or "I wanted the Man in Black's first name," or "I want to know about the guy Sayid shot on the golf course." Okay, that's cool, you wanted those answers and we decided not to provide them to you. It's not because we're being cutesie, it's because that that didn't fit with our vision of the show.’

Carlton:
‘The outrigger shootout is not something we're bending around in gyrations so we can solve it. In the grand scheme of the show, that is a fairly obscure piece of the show. It's not like we didn't want to do it. Like Damon says, it was just too much of a narrative deviation to do it.’

Carlton (on MIB):
‘I think for us to explain why we're not giving him a name veers too far into the territory of explaining things that we don't feel the need to explain.’

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******END OF SPOILERISH*********

#231. Posted by: Mischa at May 13, 2010 1:53 PM

I think psycho mom was plain ole tired. Much like Jacob. They wanted to die and needed someone else to pull the plug. I wonder if she even played up MIB being the favorite to help him crash and burn and kill with efficiency and anger.

#232. Posted by: Rich in Balto at May 13, 2010 2:08 PM

Who wins in the end: The Sheppard or the Flocke?

#233. Posted by: Rich in Balto. at May 13, 2010 2:10 PM

I read this from the link as well. Actually got a little mad at Carlton for comment: "Carlton:
...Like Damon says, it was just too much of a narrative deviation to do it."

All could think of so the whole Nicki and Paolo thing was worth it! Also, with out Nicki, Paolo, and the spiders that we never see again, and apart from a pretty funny t-shirt, what did we need Doc Arzt for? All the dynomite knowlege could have come from Sayid.

IMO - the outrigger incident should be covered. If not, oh well, I can't wait to see what is covered.

#234. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 2:18 PM

I think part of this week's poster angst is that this episode seems totally out of place. But if you look back, the production values of cutting off scenes, jumbling the time sequences, flashes were all to create aura of mystery as much as the underlying story, which has been a long simmering critique.

In standard story telling, there is a beginning middle and end. The story starts with action, character development, reaction, character choices, climax, then character change. It has always appeared that TPTB wanted to slice out pieces of those conventional story sections and show them out of order to keep viewers in the dark as long as possible.

However, one can tell the viewer what is going on in the background without telling the main characters; classic horror movies do that --- "don't open that door!" moments.

It will probably be debated for years whether LOST should have been structured differently. For example, if Across the Sea and island background story of Richard in Ab Atereo comprised the pilot episode, with the ending of Ben looking up into the sky watching 815 break up, then barking orders to Goodwin and Ethan, would that have been less compelling?

#235. Posted by: welh at May 13, 2010 2:19 PM

#233. Posted by: Rich in Balto
"Who wins in the end: The Sheppard or the Flocke?"

Clever!!! I think it might be wolf.

#236. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 2:20 PM

@229 Crispy Seaplanes

Excellent analogy and I agree with you whole heartedly. I grew up idolizing the original SW trilogy, so much so that I created expectations for the prequels that were impossible to live up to…for any story writer or film director, on any budget.

LOST, if not my favorite show of all time, is definitely on my Mt. Rushmore of all time greats. The mystery involved, the suspense, the structure of the show, the brilliant casting and acting all helped create quite an experience. For me, season 2 was my favorite with the introduction of the Hatch, the Dharma Initiative, and the Others. From the opening scene of the premier when we discover a person is actually living in the Hatch, to the last scene of the finale when we discover the island does in fact exist in the real world and Penny may be able to get a lock on it, to everything in between...the blast door map, the orientation film, Henry Gale, the Pearl, the first time we see the smoke monster, and so on. Every episode was riveting...rife with easter eggs, clues, and connections between characters interwoven into brilliant back stories. I had moments every week where I would say, "Wait...what..hold on....oh my God...what the hell?" I've never been more "addicted" to a show then I was for season 2 of LOST.

I've enjoyed every season since then immensely, but I feel each subsequent season lacked something that I had never been able to put my finger on. My only guess is that this is the result of the unrealistically high expectations I set for the show during that season and as answers have slowly started trickling into the episodes, part of what made LOST so great (the mystery) was diminished with each passing scene.

While I share in the sentiment of those who are disappointed in the path this show has taken this season, I constantly try to remind myself that only a few precious episodes of possibly the most unique and intriguing show remain and perhaps it’s not quite as bad as I am making it out to be…it’s simply not living up to an unattainable standard of excellence established in the brilliance of the earlier seasons.

#237. Posted by: Artz Vandelay at May 13, 2010 2:40 PM

We have been focusing for years and especially for the last few months on good versus evil. Of course, this is still the major theme and it's becoming clear that we are all gray; none of us black and white.
But this episode leaned more on religion versus science than simply good versus bad. Jacob IS religion and faith. Blindly accepting what he is told. Believeing things out of a laziness or innability to think for himself. Seemingly 'good' but clearly willing to do 'evil' things in the name of his faith. Stubborn and close-minded but believing his is doing the right thing for the right reasons. Meanwhile, MIB, who may not be 'good' but is clearly NOT evil IS Science. He asks questions when he is told something he doesn't believe. He wants to explore new places and learn about different cultures. He doesn't want to settle. He wants to use his brain to do amazing things. And like a good scientist, he doesn't necessarily dismiss others' faith, but explores ways to disprove it. And like many science-based people, he is perceived as evil by those who can't see why he would want to do things that attempt to disprove these things that we've always accepted. Seems like the producers are showing a world whre science and religion co-exist and perhaps there will be no clear winner in Jacob's and MIB's game to prove which makes the world go round.

#238. Posted by: Steve at May 13, 2010 3:16 PM

@229 and @237

Good analogy ... Ditto.

If I can be honest with myself, and with everyone. I find myself getting negative sometimes, and I have tried to remember that it is the nature of people to do this in order to avoid the impending sense of loss that will come with the end of the show. I realize that I am rationalizing a diminished feeling of abandonment. make excuses to complain... I try to counter this the best I can by telling myself that the respect I have for the 6 years of fantastic story arcs and anticipation deserve the full realization of my sorrows at its conclusion. I do it's memory an honor in my mind by letting myself feel.

#239. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 3:17 PM

Apologies for interrupting our regularly scheduled conversation, but a number of folks have wondered what will become of the Lost Blog once the finale comes.

One potential solution is a new Facebook Group I just created:

http://bit.ly/dAukyz

It's open and free and accessible and people can do whatever they like with it.

More info on the group is available here:

http://bit.ly/cOTKLx

#240. Posted by: mac at May 13, 2010 3:38 PM

You guys know that Evil will win, right?

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb.
-- Dark Helmet

#241. Posted by: Gumbo at May 13, 2010 3:42 PM

@241 - gumbo...

If you dare to go there... May The Schwartz be with you!

#242. Posted by: Revelation at May 13, 2010 3:52 PM

I dare, I dare

:-D

#243. Posted by: Gumbo at May 13, 2010 3:55 PM

One of the things that gets lost is that this is a TV show for entertainment. It makes us think, laugh, cry, run the whole gamut of emotional responses, and we take away from it what we want.

I, for one, have been enjoying the ride. I may not like all the answers (or lack thereof), or bee as knowledgable about religion, mythology, or science, medicine, or the legal elements so I don't try to poke holes in them. The whole show has been a game, and has gone far beyond "regular" television programming in that fans like us have gone technological with it via blogs and such. This show has become a pioneer of true interactive media in the websites, blogs, games, and webisodes, etc.

Thank you TPTB.

#244. Posted by: Gumbo at May 13, 2010 4:00 PM

@229 Crispy Seaplanes

I hear what you're saying about high expectations that can never me met, like with SW. However, as dissapointing as the prequel trilogy was (and it did have it's moments), it did tie up the loose ends. In fact, Lucas went out of his way to reference stuff from the original trilogy and provide answers to big and small questions that fans had.

What if Lucas decided not to explain Vader's mechanical hand, because he didn't think it was important enough to the main story?

#245. Posted by: Mischa at May 13, 2010 4:25 PM

#200. Posted by: Fellow Travelle
We are all so deep down the rabbit hole, there’s no going back. All we can do, any of us, is move forward and accept our lot. Our destiny – to finish the journey, however F**d up it gets.

You mean we all need to be men of faith? I think you asre right and thanks for eloquently putting it on my pc screen.

I actually loved the epi.

I sat with my eyes glued to the tv and my husband says my mouth was open.

I was finally finding out who they were and what happened to set them on this course. Of course now I see they are merely the most recent in a long (just how long?) line of candidates picked to protect.......hmmmm.

The most wonderful thing you could think of.

It really doesn't matter. Maybe knowledge. As you say, the tech know how we have is amazing but could very well be the end of us.
-----------------------------------
#203. Posted by: Mizzed
“Lost has lost its soul?” “I feel completely betrayed!” “They’re making this up as they go along!”

I am surprrised so many did not enjoy the epi.

But I think this is the problem. We are not all going to be happy because we all have our own theory of what the island is and what it does and why the losties are there.

Along the way, it COULD have been many different theories, NOW it is narrowing down to one.

The show, if it continues to be kind of loose in it's last explanations, will fit my theory fine. So I am happy. Except for the numbers and Blast door map. And maybe some others. I may be disappointed if it turns out to be aliens, but the show itself is really the best thing I have seen on tv in my lifetime and I am 62. Lost is the only show I watch on tv. All right, we watch Raymond too. But everything else holds no interest for me.

-----------------------------
Harley @76 did an excellent job making this case already, and that post is well worth reading.
#203. Posted by: Mizzed

I agree.

as others have posted better than I, this epi is possibly the most important one because it tells us that The smoke monster is NOT mIB. I did not get this until I read the posts here. It really is a security system to protect the island.

So that, the Smoke monster manufactured the murder of Jacob. It is JAcob against the Smoke monster. Jacob thinking that man is salvagable and the Monster thinking that he is not, as all he has seen are evil men there on the island trying to take the islands power. That's why (maybe) he cannot be allowed to go off island.

Question. Is it Jacob's rule that the monster cannot leave the island? Can he ACTUALLY LEAVE IT? or is it whoever made the island's rule?
----------------------------------
#210. Posted by: MizzeBecause Smokey's prime initiative is not to protect the island, but to kill Jacob and the candidates.

I don't agree - politely. I think smokey is like AI and is learning. Like the space probe in teh first star trek movie. A machine that learns and having learned that man is evil, he is tired of waiting for Jacob to find the GOOD people and is bent on destroying all men. If he can get to them.
-----------------
Is protecting the island a bit like pushing the button? Your told it's important so you do it but you never really understand why.
#219. Posted by: PZ

Good One! Have to think on that for a while.

#246. Posted by: berkyo at May 13, 2010 5:07 PM

Is the "Smoke Monster" solely a reflection of the person (MIB) that released it from its' watery prison?

My point - what if Jacob had thumped Mother Theresa and sent her down the log flume into the golden light? Would the island be all 'unicorns and rainbows' and 'happy-good-fun-time' after Smokey took her form?

#247. Posted by: DocH at May 13, 2010 6:12 PM

haiku cont...

Brother-Brother fight,
Island secret brought to light,
Dark smoke gains full might?

========
Anyone remember 'The Smothers Brothers'?

I got a real - "Mom always liked you best!" - vibe from this episode.

#248. Posted by: DocH at May 13, 2010 6:37 PM

@248. Posted by: DocH Anyone remember 'The Smothers Brothers'?

> let's see...one dark/one iight...one named dick/one named tommy...so, since we have pretty much established that Jacob can be a total dick, I propose that MIB's name must be Tommy!

#249. Posted by: surefoot at May 13, 2010 7:18 PM

#248. Posted by: DocH

Anyone remember 'The Smothers Brothers'?

I got a real - "Mom always liked you best!" - vibe from this episode.

Agreed, thanks for the memory!

#250. Posted by: mtncbn at May 13, 2010 8:55 PM

No Umbilical Cords! Neither one of them had Umbilical Cords! They are not human. Didn't anyone notice?

#251. Posted by: Not Zero at May 13, 2010 9:20 PM

Read this in the TV Guide:

"There's no early way of knowing....which direction we are doing" If you felt an intriguing chill after hearing the lyrics to the song from "Willy Wonda & the Chocolate Factory" during a recent Lost promo but weren't sure what it means --well, that exactly what the folks over at ABC were hoping for.

As the mega hit ramps up to its much-anticipated finale, ABC's marketing team has a tough task of promoting Lost while revealing nothing. "It's been a challenge", admits ABC's executive nice president of marketing Michael Benson. "Every piece of music, video and tactic we use plays into the mythology and essence of Lost. We're careful about everything we select and want people to drawing parallels to other things".

Lost and "Wonka" both involve an enigmatic man who lures strangers to a mysterious setting to name a successor. The persuasive Man In Black is Slugworth, ageless Alpert is the Everlasting Gobstopper....we could go on and on and on. "We got a note from {executive producer} Damon Lindelof about this specific promo," Benson says. "He loved it"

It won't be hard to promote the May 23 finale since fans are dying for answers. But Benson says, "We need to make sure that this finale goes beyond peoples who have watched lost. We need to make this pop culture."

#252. Posted by: Christina at May 13, 2010 10:08 PM

#245. Posted by: Mischa
Don't get me wrong--I looove the prequels. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one. But I do tend to nitpick somethings--like how in Jedi Leia has memories of her mother when in epi III we see her mother died when she was born.

It's just that I had built up expectations over all that time. The original movies were soooo good just like the early seasons of Lost. Both Star Wars and Lost stood out from the heap of other movies and tv shows in innovation, excellence in execution, etc... So by the time Phantom Menace came out expectations were impossibly high--nothing could have lived up to it. And after Menace which I loved, I still realized I needed to temper my expectations a bit. No, the prequels are not exactly how I imagined they would be. But I love them and watch them all the time as the incredibly entertaining movies they are. And I'm thankful they brought Star Wars to a new generation.
My point is that similarly, I've had to temper my expectations and realize that I need to let go of Lost and recognize that it will be what Darlton want it to be and enjoy finishing the ride the way they and not I envision it. It may not meet what I imagined or expected, but I guarantee I will be entertained and will still appreciate it as better than anything else on tv.
Another example that comes to mind is the Godfather pt 3. After so many years after pt 2 it was an impossible mission to make something that could live up to expectations or be what people envisioned. That said it still was honestly one of the better movies of its year and was very entertaining on its own.
Sometimes early greatness can be a curse in that you can almost never quite repeat it. You can come close but almost always fall short in someone's eyes. Especially when a long period of time falls between that early success and the final chapter, people become possessive and form their own vision for how it should be. And by that time there is no way to meet everyone's individual expectations.

#253. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 13, 2010 10:11 PM

It was a very smart episode in showing that Jacob is the latest in a long line of protectors and that everything he learned was from Fmom. We can't trust everything she has said and I assume that whoever taught her did not tell her everything anyway. They have set it up that no one currently on the island, including Jacob, really knows the full story of what the island is, how it works, what is the truth, etc...
They managed to give us answers and yet preserve the mystery. They've pulled back the curtain as far as they can to reveal what the most knowledgeable person, Jacob, knows. And since even he doesn't know everything, neither can we ever know everything.

#254. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 13, 2010 10:21 PM

@248 DocH methusalaed:

>Anyone remember 'The Smothers Brothers'?

>I got a real - "Mom always liked you best!" - vibe from this episode.

My wife went to the same hisg schoopl as them , but a few years after (Redondo Union High, Redondo Beach, CA).

On the other hand, Squeeky Frome was only wone class before hers.

#255. Posted by: Cecil at May 13, 2010 11:22 PM

@251 Not Zero mistook:

>No Umbilical Cords! Neither one of them had Umbilical Cords! They are not human. Didn't anyone notice?

They HAD umbilicalcords. If you go to GeronimoJacksBeard.blogspot.com, Jorge Garcia's blog, you can see him posing with one of the umbilical cord props.

Fun Fact: The surgeon at Duke University Hospital who does reconstructive plastic surgery for bariatric patients that have lost enormous amounts of weight and have this flap of abdominal skin hanging down in front says he 'doesn't do navels'. If you get this surgery you get a smooth, unblemished abdomen.

#256. Posted by: Cecil at May 13, 2010 11:29 PM

GRAA Mac!

I didn't have much time to spend on the blog last week. I didn't even read beyond the first 100 posts or so. Hopefully I can contribute a bit more this week around, although I wonder, is there much to say about this episode? I agree with most all of what you say in your review. I especially like the following bit

"She alludes to that in her final moments with MIB. So, if that's the case, I'm thinking the "Lost" finale could follow in the footsteps of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer": the all-important prophecy -- the very thing that guided that series -- was overcome when the characters decided to not play by the rules."

Exactly! It's what I've been saying all along. Our beloved Losties should take matters into their own hands and not be tossed around by these tossers.


@10, shikotee: "At this stage, I find this very annoying. Honestly - what is the point? Is there any good reason to not give the person a name? I rank this with the whole Sun loss of English thingy."

Naming a person or thing has often great significance in mythology. Since TPTB like to compare Lost to a mythology I'm sure they have their reasons.


@20, Cecil: "And, if so, now we know how MIB knows the dagger has special posers to kill smoke monsters while in bodily form."

Perhaps a result of frequent exposure to the Island's EM thingamabob?

"hope you saw the Jacob/MIB "How to Pass Eternity on a Desert Island by playing Connect Four Million (TM)" on Jimmy Kimmel - if not look for it on YouTube - hilarious."

That was hilarious indeed. Thanks!


@32, Owen: "And sure, that's fine, but in this episode we got much more interesting information about him."

Did we? Are we all missing the obvious thing here? Jacob's brother died. Since we know that Smokey can take the form of death people, why do we all accept that our current day Flocke is indeed Jacob's brother? Isn't it more likely that Jacob's brother really died and Smokey just took his form? Just like, perhaps, he took the twin's mother's form to get Jacob's brother (this is annoying, I'm going to call him JaBro), to get JaBro digging for EM-y goodness?


My hopes of being able to spend a bit more time on the blog this week so far have proven false. I've only read bits and pieces over the last couple of days and collected my comments and I'm only 32 posts in, so I'm just going to post this right now and hope I can read up and join in later. Some browsing revealed that my last comment about JaBro being dead were addressed in some form or another by some other commenters (#76 and #100). I hope my little piece added something.

#257. Posted by: Plain Simple at May 14, 2010 12:11 AM

What I learned from the episode is that Jacob is a 40 year old virgin.

Please, please give MIB a name so that I know what to yell out in my dreams... he's sooo hot!

#258. Posted by: Skipper at May 14, 2010 3:05 AM

@257. Plain Simple:

>> @20, Cecil: "And, if so, now we know how MIB knows the dagger has special posers to kill smoke monsters while in bodily form."

> Perhaps a result of frequent exposure to the Island's EM thingamabob?

I'm guessing you've fallen for it. Like Widmore said on the beach, he only knows rumors and myths. The knife was a knife, used to kill CJ. Over the next couple thousand years, myths got built, retold, mistold about it. Smokey in Black made up a tale for Richard, Dogen learned it from a long line of Others. Like the parable of the roasting pan, or just a millennial telephone chain, the origins - and the truth - went lost.

I think Darlton are showing that, while there is a true Island mystery somewhere down there, no one on the Island knows what it is, and no one has for a long time.

#259. Posted by: LockeBox at May 14, 2010 5:31 AM

Nope. No Umbilical Cords. They were CUT from the scene! They may have been a prop, but they never appeared in the show. Just because something appears on GeronimoJacksBeard.blogspot.com doesn't mean it was ever part of LOST. Watch it again. I did. No umbilical cords - No blood either. Not human.

#260. Posted by: Not Zero at May 14, 2010 7:29 AM

Anyone else expect a "Hangover-esque" naming of MIB as a baby by crazy momma?

Looked like a Carlos to me!

#261. Posted by: giggity at May 14, 2010 7:41 AM

When MIB stabbed mother and she fell to the ground, she mumbled something which I believe to be MIB's name. I think she said Uther. Which I have linked to Uther Pendragon; Who was King Arthur's father. Pendragon can be translated to mean "dragon's head". They said MIB's name would give us a clue about the show or the island. So I believe the clue is Avalon.
Avalon in Welsh mythology is the kingdom of the dead, afterwards an earthly paradise in the western seas. Avalon is also known as the place where King Arthur's sword Caliburn (Excalibur) was forged and later where Arthur is taken to recover from his wounds after the Battle of Camlann. Avalon was associated from an early date with immortal beings such as Morgan le Fay.

#262. Posted by: The Philosopher at May 14, 2010 8:57 AM

#251. Posted by: Not Zero:"No Umbilical Cords! Neither one of them had Umbilical Cords! They are not human. Didn't anyone notice?"

Yes, I noticed, but I thought it was just like TPTB to purposely edit the cord cutting out so we would wonder if they had umbilical cords.

#263. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 9:28 AM

I have gone back obver the episode, specifically the scenes involving Fmom in the villiage of people and down in the chamber with MIB. Odd as it may be, I do not understand how the people do not notice a woman they have never seen (30 years together as a villiage) walking around and going down the ladder. Either she is stealthy, or they cant see her.

It also does not seem to bother the villiagers that Jacob comes to visit MIB, but they are not curious as to find out where he came from. Or do they not see Jacob either?

It was also strange that MIB, as a boy, can see He mother, but Jacob could not. The only explainantion she gives MIB is that she is dead. I don't know what her being dead has to do with why one son can see her and one son can't.

Does this have anything to do with why other "Ghosts" can be seen by some of our characters and not by others?

Is this the answer to this question also why the people in the villiage did not see Fmom?

These are things I would like to know, but I am not sure that they are important.

@262 - I liked the Pendragon reference. but, who gave it, and when was the clue given "They said MIB's name would give us a clue about the show or the island." I don't remember this anywhere in the show.

#264. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 9:37 AM

@264 - I read that the name will be a clue, somewhere either on here or on lostpedia, but I can't quite find the reference anymore. :-(

#265. Posted by: The Philosopher at May 14, 2010 9:59 AM

WARNING - ENDGAME THEORY to follow

It just occured to me that MIB tells FMom what they found and what they are going to do with the wheel. He tells Jacob that they found places all over the island that had similar properties, and when they found these places they would dig. In the spot where they were now, they found something.

Flocke tells this same story about the wells that men dug all over the island. Flocke says that the men never found anything. This is a lie, but why lie at this point. While the men never were given a chance to use it, they most certainly found something, came to understand it a bit, and devised a way to use it.

We all know that somehow, the wheel idea is put into place, and the damn thing actually works. I want to know who turned it the first time, and what happenned. How does anything/anyone know that this thing actually moves the island.

This could be why the island is sunken. In the altverse, flight 815 flies over the sunken island, but in the other timeline/world, this would not have happenned because the crash site was 1000 miles off course for the flight path 815.
Could the island have been moved and this as was described by ben as "very risky" and "a measure of last resort" proved to be just that.

I believe that the final episode will have someone turn the wheel again. Only this time the island will move to a time in the past, and a place that is underwater and in the flight path of flight 815.

#266. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 10:15 AM

#264.Revelation____ I think the villagers accepted Jacob's visits to MIB because MIB told them Jacob is his brother.

It seems unlikely to me that any of the three of them are not visible to anyone but each other; Claudia could see FMom.

You have a point about the villagers ignoring FMom... Janney is a tall woman, she would have been noticed. Perhaps MIB told them his mother was nuts so they avoided confronting her?

I am still undecided about whether or not Smokey existed prior to MIB's emergence from the glowing cavern as smoke. I am leaning towards, "No".

MIB seeing Claudia and Jacob not seeing Claudia: I figure MIB has the same gift Hurley has; FMom told him he was special. If it was Smokey/Claudia, Jacob would have seen her too. We know that Sawyer can see child-Jacob and that Flocke is surprised by that. I guess Sawyer has a lesser measure of the gift than Hurley or MIB has.

#267. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 10:16 AM

#262 (The Philosopher) "...So I believe the clue is Avalon..."

Then I suppose Class Real has become really huge ;)

(I couldn't resist -- I love Mamoru Oshii's movie)

#268. Posted by: Margot at May 14, 2010 10:21 AM

@267 - Undauntid

Good explaination. I like it
I would really like to know your opinion and take on my engame thoery in 266.
BTW my head exploaded after I hit Post on that one.

#269. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 10:24 AM

I want to explain why I think people (like me) hated this episode, and why it was so disappointing. It's not that we didn't get answers. It's that the answers were stupid.

The issue with this show is that they throw these mysteries at you, and you keep thinking "Wow, what in the world could explain what just happened??" And then you start to wonder if the writers are just making it up as they go along, and there's really nothing behind any of it. If this episode's answers represent what was behind it all, then yes, the writers were just making it up as they go along, and it was all just arbitrary. And finally, their explanation for what was behind it all is just lame.

For example, the Donkey Wheel. We wanted to know what it was, how it worked, why it worked, etc. The answer is: The MIB started building it because some ancient people had "interesting ideas" and because he somehow if he turned it he'd get off the island. How did he know that? Because he's special. That is basically a non-answer. "Because it's magic."

Then the cave. We've been told the island is special in some way, and that various people are trying to get something from it or protect that something. So what is that something? It's... some magical life/death/whatever that's inside every person. Sorry, that is not an answer. It doesn't tie anything together. It just pretends to give an answer to what is behind everything.

Then there's the characters' motivations. Why does Smokey want to get off the island? Because a woman killed his real mother and he wants to go back to where he came from. Really? That's the motivation behind the last two seasons? As I said at the top, that is definitely a concrete answer, but it's just a stupid one.

I guess there's some extremely small possibility that the next two episodes will tie things together better or give better answers that aren't so lame. But as OtherKate said above, it feels like we've been had since that's what we've been hoping for all along, so still hoping for it now seems pretty naive.

#270. Posted by: TNeloms at May 14, 2010 10:49 AM

@270- see your point, but there is really one question that I want answered in the long run. 6 years is a long run. the question was posed by Charley in epi 1. "Where are we?" All in all, speculation and theories aside, I want to to know what the island is. In all honesty, I will look back on the last 6 seasons positively, but if this basic question is not answered, I will be very dissapointed in TPTB.

#271. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 10:59 AM

#269. Posted by: Revelation: "I would really like to know your opinion and take on my engame thoery in 266.
BTW my head exploaded after I hit Post on that one."
_____ Only because I flat out don't like the idea of a moving island, I resist accepting a moving island as a viable possibility! But I admit that is a personal quirk.

That being said....I can't further comment on your hypothesis because I don't understand the how or the why of it because the alt timelines/universes confuse the *&$%^ out of me!

#272. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 11:47 AM

@270,271
I think the disappointment ahead could be that if LOST is the story of the resolution of the Jacob-MIB conflict (which was hidden for five seasons), people will think that all the other story lines were filler.

In trying to find deeper meaning in this episode, one could speculate
MIB's memory of "clever" people with ideas about the life energy could be used to change the past. There are a few common things that both Jacob and MIB would jointly like to correct: a) MIB killing CrazyMom; b) Jacob killing his brother and turning him into Smokey; or c) CrazyMom killing Claudia. The search for time travel may have been the quest, "the progress" of the brothers to make amends with their own Past mistakes. Once they can achieve it, their misery ends.

It appears that Jacob and MIB had no knowledge of time travel. Bringing people from the great civilizations was the means to their end, but human nature, personality conflicts and greed destroyed all hope for Jacob-MIB's getting their time machine.

The problem with this theory is that the 815ers had no scientific skill sets to create time machines or improve on the technology. You would think Jacob would have targeted nuclear scientists, quantum physics professors, Steven Hawking.

#273. Posted by: welh at May 14, 2010 11:57 AM

@272. Posted by: undauntid
"alt timelines/universes confuse the *&$%^ out of me!

I can respect that.

I try to thing of the alt stuff like the endings to Waynes World... it could have ended like this ( they do the gilligan's Island wavy screen thing - doodaly doo, doodaly doo, doodaly doo.

--Insert ballroom blitz--

But it only really ends once and Oh yeah, it was electric, so frightfully hectic And the band started leaving, 'cause they all stopped breathing.

#274. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 11:58 AM

@273. Posted by: welh
"You would think Jacob would have targeted nuclear scientists, quantum physics professors, Steven Hawking."

Isn't that exactly what the Dharma Initiative provided?
I can't imagine that the army comes to the island with Jughead and no nuclear scientist to evaluate the experiment.

I think he/it/whatever did try to do this.

#275. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 12:30 PM

@270. Posted by: TNeloms
re: It's not that we didn't get answers. It's that the answers were stupid.

LoL! Can you define the difference between a stupid and answer and a smart answer? I'd be interested in learning what this criteria is. Allow me to pick away at your points...

"Wow, what in the world could explain what just happened??"

*Newsflash*

This show is very deeply immersed in fantasy. It has been such from day #1 when the plane split in half in the air above an island, and a monster snatched the pilot from the cockpit.

The beauty about this show is that they injected it with so many things, but at the end of the day, they CAN'T make this stuff real because IT ISN'T real!

What is the difference between a magical smoke monster out for revenge and a techno-nano smokey created by man? Neither exist in the real world. Both are pure fiction, and neither is more plausible than the other (unless you choose to believe that this type of thing will eventually be constructed when technology evolves).

If it was a geenie behind it all, would it really be better explained?

"there's really nothing behind any of it."

There is nothing real behind any of it that can be proven. This is the fictional construct that they had in mind - deal with it! It sucks that what you thought it might be didn't happen, but c'est la vie!

"the writers were just making it up as they go along, and it was all just arbitrary"

I never had a doubt that this was the case. If you have ever paid attention to how anything works in this industry, you would understand that "flexibility" is a must. They obviously had a rough outline with where they were going, and made various decisions throughout 6 years of work.

Would you have preferred that they would have stuck to the original plan of killing Jack in the pilot? Would you be happy with Henry Gale appearing for a few episodes?

All of you who whine about "making it up" have likely NEVER EVER created anything yourselves, so you latch to the next best thing - criticism. You sit there and judge, when it is very unlikely that you could come up with anything better.

I'm really not surprised that they are keeping things dumbed down. This show is watched by many people, of which only a fraction expand their experience on the internet. The sheer beauty of this show is how they have been able to juggle casual viewers and fanatics who analyze every minute detail. What is your solution for keeping everyone happy?

This is the biggest thing that I noticed. A good chunk of people whom I have talked to who extend their habit via the internet were more critical, whereas those who simply "watch the show" (and have never rewatched the series) were totally cool with how things went down with this episode.

I maintain - the problem isn't the show - the problem is your unrealistic expectations!

"And finally, their explanation for what was behind it all is just lame"

Really? Tell me - What is the super awesome explanation for the donkey wheel? I wanna hear it.

"the Donkey Wheel. We wanted to know what it was, how it worked, why it worked, etc."

Speak for yourself. I did not want any such thing. Would fictional blue prints put together by the Egyptians have helped? Really? What if they had a learning seminar that smokey attended called "Harnessing the powers of the island - 101"? Would this make it more plausible?

What difference would some sort of contrived answer really make? There is no point explaining how it works because it serves no purpose to do so.

"So what is that something? It's... some magical life/death/whatever that's inside every person."

"It just pretends to give an answer to what is behind everything."

LoL! So if they explained to you that it was the element known as flubber, which was created through such and such a process, then it would totally be believable? Anything and everything is going to be a "pretend" answer, because this show is fantasy! This is NOT a documentary! Once again - your expectations are ridiculous.

"Then there's the characters' motivations. Why does Smokey want to get off the island? Because a woman killed his real mother and he wants to go back to where he came from."

You would prefer that he was evil incarnate, and that his goal is to destroy everything, just because he is evil? Really?

Perhaps it is your comprehension of these motivations that are the problem. I see them as much more complicated then what you seem to perceive. MIB is very smart and very curious, and like many many people in this world, he covets that of which he has been told he cannot have. The story is as old as time itself.

His goal is not what lies before him across the sea - it is freedom. "Don't tell me what I can't do" indeed!

"I guess there's some extremely small possibility that the next two episodes will tie things together better or give better answers that aren't so lame."

LoL! Now that they have presented us with the ancient context, I fully expect that the next episode will elaborate on these things, and how they apply to our current story. This is why they chose to place it as they did.

And you know what - especially upon re-watching - I really liked this episode! It has made me think like no other episode has so far this season. It has been awesome having the hamster spinning the wheel in my head that fast and long.

Sorry that you are unable or unwilling to see it through such a light!

Anyways - I do apologize if I have been too strong here. Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinions/reactions.

I've said it once and I'll say it again - boy, I'm glad I'm in my boat of forgiveness! I remember times when I was really cheesed with this show, and I'm glad I haven't fallen into that trap. Willingly drinking the Kool-Aid is actually alot better than taking it by force!

#276. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2010 12:32 PM

#270. TNeloms: "Why does Smokey want to get off the island? Because a woman killed his real mother and he wants to back to where he came from. Really?"

___Well, yeah, really! MIB wants to go home. Whether he is driven by an longing he doesn't understand,or by curiosity, or by wanderlust, or by spitefulness (don't tell me what I can't do!),or by vengeance (if I can't have it no one can have it)...For me, wanting to go home is a reasonable explanation. MIB has wanted off that island for 2000 years, he's getting testy about it.

As far as what makes the island special and in need of guardianship: A glowing source of life, death and rebirth is more preferable to me than a dilithium crystal mine.

#277. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 12:49 PM

@270,276

As you can see I too found the episode really good for making the hampster in my now exploaded head turn the wheel. I see the point 270, I dont agree, but I do see it.

276 - I thing the response addresses the issue with the dislike of the episode, but I also think that 270 was saying the explainations were too simplistic and "stupid" within the reference of the LOST experience, not the real world, or the showbiz industry.

270 is saying that the island is, if TPTB keep going in this direction, basically going to, in other words, be revealled as a giant light bulb socket. (I am not trying put words in 270's mouth).

If have mis-read the banter here let me know. I really, really hope it is not a light bulb socket, or a reaklly huge bug zapper for men, but in the end does it really matter?

#278. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 12:49 PM

@278 - Myself

I need to clarify - what I meant was - in the end it really does not matter what I think. it will be what it is.

#279. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 12:53 PM

I don't understand all the fuss on what the island is. We pretty much know. It's harboring giant electromagnetic energy of some kind.

The "ancient" people call this "life, death, spirit and rebirth".

Think about what large amounts of EM energy does.

a) It affects time. Time runs faster in space and our GPS satalites account for this by adjusting the time on our phones and other devices by a fraction of a second every day to keep from spiraling out of control. Could the energy be so strong it actually helps us jump whole timelines?

b)The energy also kicks our immune system into gear. This explains early deaths in child-bearing (immune system overvamps and kills the child) as well as all the mysterious healing and immunity powers we see on the island.

c) The Smoke Monster has always had the sound of chains. Perhaps the EM is the only way to trap the Monster to the island, hence it's purpose in the first place.


Everything can be explained by the EM energy and the properties of such.

#280. Posted by: Dan at May 14, 2010 1:30 PM

With regard to the suggestion by some people that TPTB are "making it up as they go along".

Yes they are and no they aren't. I think it is safe to assume that they did not have a 6 year story arc completed when they got picked up after the pilot episode. I am certain though that when they presented their ideas that they knew what was special about the island, why the survivors were on the island, and how they wanted the story to end.

Pretty quick after the start, they had two curve balls thrown at them. The very compelling character of Eko quit the series and the bug eyed guy who played "Henry Gale" was too delicious on screen to let him go. So they made adjustments within the story they were telling to accommodate each situation.

Of course it changed, it was an ongoing creative process! They brought Nikki and Paulo in, then they wrote them out...but wouldn't it be hilarious if those diamonds or spiders end up being something important!


#281. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 1:31 PM

@280 - Dan
"I don't understand all the fuss on what the island is."

So you don't understand why I wan't to know what the island is? I think we watched the show from two separate points of view.

You are saying that it is a giant monster magnet.

Ok, works for me, its about as good as being a really big light bulb socket, but that would be plausible. I would not like it, but it is what it is.

#282. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 1:36 PM

@222. Posted by: Cecil Rose
re: D&C interview about "Across the Sea"

Thanks for the link - it was a good read.

In response, I extend an invitation to click my name, and read an interesting article that pertains to the end of Lost, and the general notion of ending a series. Some very valid points are made with regards to closure, both in the article and the comments.

#283. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2010 1:51 PM

#134: I don't know that the pregnancy/inability to conceive thing will be directly addressed in the next 3.5 hours, but I believe it has been an ongoing theme and one that was solidified once the physics/time-travel portion of the show began a couple of years ago....The entire basis of the island is the First Law Of Thermodynamics. That says that energy can never be created nor destoyed, it can only change state. It would follow that you cannot conceive on the island because that would be CREATING energy that doesn't exist. When someone is conceived off the island, that energy coming to the island is very special and new...An energy that was not there before and is very different. That may expalin why Jacob and MIB cannot leave or it would violate the First Law Of Thermodynamics. It may also explain why it is so important that the island get Aaron back. Also might help people cope with the death of Sun & Jin and some others we love. Sun & Jin did not die...Their energy could not exist in two universes at the same time...again...conservation of energy. This is why the timelines merge near death or love or destiny. Sun & Jin and new baby have the perfect life in the Alt timeline, so their energy from the island could fully be transferred into the Alt Timeline, which becomes Sun & Jin's reality and destiny and real life. Newton was a smart man. No matter what else the show/island represent, if we follow the First Law Of Thermodynamics, it really does allow for some brilliant rules that have been followed since the very first season regardless of any other inconsistencies or disappointments.

#284. Posted by: Steve at May 14, 2010 1:55 PM

@282 - Revelation
"I don't understand all the fuss on what the island is."

So you don't understand why I wan't to know what the island is? I think we watched the show from two separate points of view.

You are saying that it is a giant monster magnet.

Ok, works for me, its about as good as being a really big light bulb socket, but that would be plausible. I would not like it, but it is what it is.
--------------

The fact that it is a monster magnet makes it all the better. All of the twists and turns we've seen, all of the different presentations to the island's power all stem from different perspectives. But at the end of the day it doesn't have to be literally as magical as the events surrounding it.

Most of today's technology in computers, satalites, and other equipment would seem completely magical to our civilization's early scientists; but that doesn't mean they aren't all grounded in perfectly logical explanations in today's world.

The island being a giant electro-magnet source would perfectly explain everything that has happened on the island, everything that was THOUGHT to have happened on the island, as well as still cary an air of mystery as to what the damn thing even is.

The candidates and their purpose are still open for discussion, however.

#285. Posted by: Dan at May 14, 2010 2:53 PM

Didn't Richard drink from the same wine flask as jacob drank from when his mother made him island protector? so that would mean that richard is the next island protector, right? The wine is what made richard immortal, not jacob's touch.

#286. Posted by: Gagala at May 14, 2010 3:15 PM

maybe The Light in that glowing cavern is the source of The Big Bang. Birth, Death, Rebirth contained therein. Metaphysics.

#287. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 3:21 PM

#254. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes
They managed to give us answers and yet preserve the mystery. They've pulled back the curtain as far as they can to reveal what the most knowledgeable person, Jacob, knows. And since even he doesn't know everything, neither can we ever know everything.

Yepper
-------------------------------
#248. Posted by: DocH

Anyone remember 'The Smothers Brothers'?

That was also great TV!
----------------------------------I think #259. Posted by: LockeBox
Darlton are showing that, while there is a true Island mystery somewhere down there, no one on the Island knows what it is, and no one has for a long time.

And yet, like the button pushing, they still do it. Maybe that's the ending. They all die and MIb leaves the island and...Nothing happens.

-----------------------------------
#266. Posted by: Revelation
I believe that the final episode will have someone turn the wheel again. Only this time the island will move to a time in the past, and a place that is underwater and in the flight path of flight 815.

And then the volcano erupts and lifts the island up to sea level and 815 Crashes.

--------------------------
#270. Posted by: TNeloms
It's that the answers were stupid

but that is an opinion. I wouldn't say they were stupid. maybe not as forthcoming as I would like. And we have no control over what they want to put in their scripts. And maybe...just maybe, the next epi will have more info. We would really think it odd if one epi had all the answer. Like Halliwax, giving a lecture on Island 101. The ultimate dharma experiment. Hey! Remember when we thought that?

#276. Posted by: shikotee as I am reading posts and posting my response, I see you have said something similar.I think it's because this show is so "special". We all have a horse in this race.
----------------------------
#273. Posted by: welh
The search for time travel may have been the quest, "the progress" of the brothers to make amends with their own Past mistakes. Once they can achieve it, their misery ends.

this is a good theory. And it would answer a lot of questions.
---------------------------
#277. Posted by: undauntid
As far as what makes the island special and in need of guardianship: A glowing source of life, death and rebirth is more preferable to me than a dilithium crystal mine.

Yes. And I don't care what they call it. It's a shame Ealgumby and Appollo and others are not here anymore to give some technical explan of what the glowing cave could actually be. And really, as long as there is some techy explan somewhere that I don't understand, the glowy cave that is vital to my existence will do.

------------------------------
#280. Posted by: Dan
Everything can be explained by the EM energy and the properties of such.
and
#284. Posted by: Steve

Thanks Dan and Steve just what I needed. I can happy with those bits of real science to make me believe .

#288. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2010 3:26 PM

#286.Gagala: ___ I don't think so. I think the wine is ceremonial. Something they do to mark the importance of what just happened.

#289. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 3:26 PM

#288. Posted by: berkyo: "And really, as long as there is some techy explan somewhere that I don't understand, the glowy cave that is vital to my existence will do."

___Thank you Berkyo for stating my own feelings about it so succinctly!

#290. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 3:37 PM

shikotee (#276),

"@270. Posted by: TNeloms
re: It's not that we didn't get answers. It's that the answers were stupid.

LoL! Can you define the difference between a stupid and answer and a smart answer? I'd be interested in learning what this criteria is."

---

You don't think that there exist stupid plots and interesting plots? Many people speculated in the early seasons that it could all have been Hurley's dream. In my mind, that would have been a stupid plot, because they could just throw in all sorts of random and crazy twists/events, and the explanation behind it all would have been, "It was a dream! Crazy things happen in dreams."

And I find this plot stupid. It lacks depth, it isn't compelling, and the characters' motivations don't make sense to me. A kid finds out his mother was killed and he's really from off the island, so he spends thousands of years trying to get off the island for that reason alone? I mean, it wasn't to find out what it was like off the island, because he met plenty of humans and saw what they were like (and didn't even like them). And it wasn't to meet his real parents or anything. To me, that is a lame reason to base all the machinations of the island on.

And Jacob's reason is equally lame. There's some "energy" that he doesn't understand at all because his mom didn't tell him anything about it except for using vague words that really don't mean much. And he only accepted the role of protecting it because she made him drink some wine.

So that's what everyone's fighting for? Maybe they'll develop these motivations in the next couple episodes, and it will be more satisfying. But like I said, I'm no longer holding out hope that they will, and as it stands, I find these explanations silly.

---

"*Newsflash*

This show is very deeply immersed in fantasy. It has been such from day #1 when the plane split in half in the air above an island, and a monster snatched the pilot from the cockpit.

The beauty about this show is that they injected it with so many things, but at the end of the day, they CAN'T make this stuff real because IT ISN'T real!"

---

I have no problem with fantasy, and in fact I like fantasy. (That being said, I think we were lead to believe in the first couple seasons that there was a scientific explanation behind it all.) What I do find unsatisfying is when a mystery is presented, making you wonder what is behind it, and it turns out the answer is simply "it's magic" without anything deeper.

"there's really nothing behind any of it."

---

"This is the fictional construct that they had in mind - deal with it! It sucks that what you thought it might be didn't happen, but c'est la vie!"

---

Well first, I'm skeptical that they actually had it in mind at all. And second, I'm not disappointed that what I thought would happen didn't happen (I didn't have any such thoughts), I'm disappointed that what happened wasn't satisfying.

---

"I never had a doubt that this was the case. If you have ever paid attention to how anything works in this industry, you would understand that "flexibility" is a must. They obviously had a rough outline with where they were going, and made various decisions throughout 6 years of work."

---

This wouldn't bother me if I thought it was true. When I say they were making it up as they go along, I really think they just threw in mysterious events the entire time without actually having any explanation for what was behind them. Or if they did have an explanation, it wasn't consistent, and was eventually discarded. The lack of a consistent and compelling explanation is what bothers me.

---

"All of you who whine about "making it up" have likely NEVER EVER created anything yourselves, so you latch to the next best thing - criticism. You sit there and judge, when it is very unlikely that you could come up with anything better.

...

I maintain - the problem isn't the show - the problem is your unrealistic expectations!"

---

I'm not sure why I need to have created something in order to decide if I like this show or not. There are many, many TV shows and movies in this general style that I've seen and liked a lot. For example, "24" (the first few seasons), Sixth Sense, Identity, 12 Monkeys, and many more.

So it's not like I just criticize everything. I just think it's a cheap and annoying trick to throw out a mystery that shocks the viewers and makes us think there's something interesting behind it, when in fact there is either no explanation or the explanation is, "it's magic."

And by the way, there have been some explanations that Lost has given us that have been good in this sense. For example, the polar bears. You see them at the end of the first couple episodes, and you think, whoa, something weird is going on here, I want to find out about it. And then much later we found out about various experiments that involved the bears. (That being said, we never really found out about the mysteries of what those experiments actually were and what the experimenters' motivations were.) I also liked the explanation that Jacob has been tracking and bringing these people to the island. For a long time it seemed as if all these connections and coincidences would end up just being cheap tricks to make us go "whoa" without an explanation behind them, but that nicely tied things together.

---

"Really? Tell me - What is the super awesome explanation for the donkey wheel? I wanna hear it."

---

I wasn't the one who came up with a donkey wheel that when turned transports both you and the island. If you are going to put that in your plot, then I think it's lame if your eventual explanation for its existence and workings are "it just is."

---

"What if they had a learning seminar that smokey attended called "Harnessing the powers of the island - 101"? Would this make it more plausible?

...

LoL! So if they explained to you that it was the element known as flubber, which was created through such and such a process, then it would totally be believable? Anything and everything is going to be a "pretend" answer, because this show is fantasy! This is NOT a documentary! Once again - your expectations are ridiculous."

---

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by lame and stupid. I don't mean unrealistic or implausible. Like I said, I like fantasy. But there are lame and stupid fantasy plots, and there are interesting fantasy plots. A donkey wheel that moves time and space "just because" strikes me as lame, whereas the worlds of Dune, Stranger in a Strange Land, etc. have interesting logic and motivation behind their fantasy elements.

---

"You would prefer that he was evil incarnate, and that his goal is to destroy everything, just because he is evil? Really?"

---

I won't say what I would have preferred, because it's not like I wanted one explanation and it turned out to be another. But I can give you an example of a similar background plot that I liked: the movie Dogma. It was a silly movie in many ways (and wasn't intended to be too serious), but it also had characters whose motivations and plotting spanned centuries, and whose actions had dire consequences for the world. In that case the various characters and their motivations were well-developed. You can disagree, but all I'm saying is that I thought that backstory was compelling and interesting.

---

"LoL! Now that they have presented us with the ancient context, I fully expect that the next episode will elaborate on these things, and how they apply to our current story. This is why they chose to place it as they did."

---

Actually, I think that if this episode has occurred much earlier in the season, and the rest of the season had been devoted to unfolding the story that had been set, it would have been much better. I just don't see how they can add so much with only 3 more hours, especially given everything else that has to be covered. And if they don't add much, then like I said, I find this background story to be uncompelling and disappointing. Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.

#291. Posted by: TNeloms at May 14, 2010 3:37 PM

Over at the Nikki Stafford blog, she has posted an awesome fan-made trailer for the series finale.

Click my name for some positive excitement for the finale!

Alternatively, click my name, and criticize the impending doom that is approaching... ;)

#292. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2010 4:01 PM

#291. Posted by: TNeloms: "A kid finds out his mother was killed and he's really from off the island, so he spends thousands of years trying to get off the island for that reason alone?"

___No, not because his Fmom killed his real mother; that was simply something that happened. He wants off the island because he was stuck on a freaking island and he learned that there was more than the island and it lay across the sea. It's like you grew up in a one horse town and you want to go to Paris. But everybody expects you to stay and join your father's business. Yes, your mother yelled at you when you were growing up, but that's not why you want to leave. You want to go to Paris because it's there and it isn't the one horse town you grew up in.....Now take that desire and factor in that you're in the one horse town for 2000 years.

#293. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 4:04 PM

Fiiiinally caught up on all the posts, so some of these comments go way back in the week.

The whole baby drinking boar milk conversation was fascinating. My only question is: How do you milk a boar?

Answer: Very carefully.

Kudos to Shikotee for introducing the Flubber Theory of Lost!

I actually really liked how they transitioned to Jack and Kate finding Adam and Eve. Thought it nicely, if cheesily, tied the past to the present. That was about the only thing I liked about this episode. Red...Neck...Man's "fountain of disappointment" captured my feelings quite well.

The whole donkey wheel explanation was rather lacking, but I'd at least like to know how the donkey wheel became the FROZEN donkey wheel. And did freezing it somehow stabilize the island from moving? Also, was the ladder going into the hole the same one that Ben stepped through and broke when it was icy?

I liked Stock's comment @94 that the Village People may have come from the future. What about the 1970s?!

@178 Kathy. Thank you, you made my day. I watched twice and I couldn't get "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature" out of mind every time I saw Allison Janney.

@258 Skipper. MIB's name is Stanley Ipkiss, a.k.a The Mask. Cuz he's Ssssssssmokin'! (I must have a man crush.)

Thought Jacob saying "they're coming" (twins?) mirrored Mother screaming, "It's coming," referring to the baby. Along the lines of Juliet's "go Dutch" and Charlotte's "chocolate before dinner" pre-death temporal flash comments.

OK, that one's a reach, but how about this idea: Hugo was born on the island. Would help explain how he sees dead people.

That idea got me thinking...I bet we get some major backstory reveal next week or in the finale, like when you're finishing a puzzle but you still don't really know what you're putting together until you get the final key pieces. And despite my and others' lack of excitement about this season, I do appreciate how each season one more layer is pealed back, revealing a deeper mystery.

Losties (and Tailies sidebar)
Others and Hydra and Bensylvania
Widmore and the Widmorons
Time Traveling and Fooming and Nosebleeds
Jacob and MIB
Alt World and Reboot

So what's next? Will we go back even further, beyond the birth of the good and bad twins?

#294. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 14, 2010 4:15 PM

@203. Posted by: Mizzed

Well presented and reasoned, really. Even so, I am bothered by what may be a small detail which may or may not be important. You state that "Smokey/Flocke/MIB is not a 'he', it is an 'it'. Jacob’s brother is clearly dead, which was the whole point of revealing his decomposed body as 'Adam' ".

The detail is that as Flocke, Smokey refers to Locke as stupid, a loser or words to that effect but as Jacob's brother he never refers to Jacob's brother in the third person. Smokey always talks as if he IS Jacob's brother. Even as Flocke, Smokey expresses Jacob's brother's aspirations, to get off the island. If your argument is correct, then is it simply a coincidence that Smokey and Jacob's brother have the same goal, to get off the island while Smokey and Locke have opposite goals?

Aside from this niggling worry, I find your case compelling.

#295. Posted by: August Paul at May 14, 2010 4:37 PM

#294. Posted by: Scooby-Dude: "So what's next? Will we go back even further, beyond the birth of the good and bad twins?"

___I think we will go deeper into the mystery, if not farther back in time.

#296. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 4:40 PM

#295. Posted by August Paul: "Aside from this niggling worry, I find your case compelling."

I concur.

#297. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 4:44 PM

@295

I concur on some parts, but mostly I do not.

Mind of God? interesting.
Mother described as the force that supports all life - When did she say this?

On the Evil topic - "I believe we have to take their word that MIB is evil is 100% canon at this point."

I say it again - We have to agree to disagree. IMO nothing Cuse says in an interview is cannon. If TPTB want to say something they should do it within the context of the produced broadcast. TPTB have an inherent conflict of interest when it comes to telling the truth about a production before it ends, ratings being important and all. thus the forum is not trustworthy.

#298. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 5:01 PM

although i understand that not all twins are identical these two are dissimilar to Danny Devito - Arnold Shwarzenegger proportions,
maybe the people in charge of casting thought same colour eyes would cut it for the parts of jacob and his nameless dizygotic evil twin brother,
not sure if theres a rule that one twin has to be evil in tv shows but it is almost always the case.

#299. Posted by: san at May 14, 2010 5:29 PM

When crazy mama got killed by MIB, she thanked him for killing her. I wonder if this is the reason why Jacob let Ben kill him without puting up a fight - maybe he too felt death was a welcoming event? Why?

#300. Posted by: Margarida at May 14, 2010 5:41 PM

@298. Posted by: Revelation I agree that nothing stated outside the show qualifies as canon and it seems that Darlton hold to this view as well when they dismiss criticism of how they are telling the story or refuse to answer questions like why doesn't MIB have a name. Their interview reference and linked @222. Posted by: Cecil Rose goes into this in almost boring detail

#301. Posted by: August Paul at May 14, 2010 5:51 PM

And rumour has it, the nails are being hammered into the coffin called "Heroes". Click my name if interested.

Being a comic book fan as a kid, this show totally kicked butt during its first season (excluding the Season 1 finale, which was really really poorly thought out and assembled. I kept watching this mess after, and eventually walked away. I kept my fingers crossed that they would find a way to recreate the magical storytelling they once had, but alas, it was never meant to be.

I was on and off that show several times, and to be honest - I pretty much forced my self to follow through with the last couple of seasons. Horrible.

From a characterization perspective, they jumped all over. I cringed at how they managed to morph characters that I once found interesting and compelling, into major annoyances akin to squeaky chalk.

While I can easily say that I am less than thrilled with the way Lost has played out, I am evermore thankful that they did not pull a "Heroes".

If the rumours are true, may she finally rest in peace - a much better fate than chugging along, sinking lower and lower and lower....

#302. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2010 6:30 PM

What was the point of showing us the adam and eve skeletons to eventually show us that they were the MIB and Fommy. What was the point of the revelation?

#303. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 14, 2010 6:53 PM

It occurs to me that any skepticism Jacob might have had about his fmother's assertion that he was to guard the glowing cave, which held life, death, and rebirth and woe be to the person who actually enters that cave...was probably erased when MIB went in as a person and came out as a smoke monster. Same is probably true of MIB. Oops, Mom wasn't crazy!

#304. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 6:57 PM

also....Jacob & Smokey/MIB would also have noted what mortality is and that the average life span for most everyone but them fell far short of 2000 years. As a consequence, Jacob was willing to take what Fommy (thanks Alex Angel) told him about the island as canon.

#305. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 7:23 PM

@303. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL
re: What was the point of the revelation?

One of the main points is that it is an attempt from TPTB to try to "prove" that they had a plan from the onset.

Personally, I won't lie to you - when I first watched S1, Adam and Eve did not even register (I only started watching lost between S2 and S3). Someone referenced them during S3 or S4 discussions, and I had no idea what they were talking about.

Now that we know who they were, who knows how the remains might be used as the series wraps up. It could be nothing. But who knows - the human remains of a former island guardian could be useful, and the former body of MIB could also potentially be used as a means of stopping him. There are all sorts of possibilities that the writers might pursue.

@304. Posted by: undauntid
re: cave skeptism

If I were Jacob, I think I'd be tempted to toss in various different things in there, just to see what would happen. A medusa spider in a glass jar - I wonder what would happen? I'd likely chuck in MIB body a second time, just to see what would happen. And yeah - sorry bunnylover - I would totally send a rabbit down the creek on a raft.

#306. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2010 7:32 PM

#306. shikotee: So funny!
MIB: I'm bored.
Jacob: Me too
MIB: Lets go throw some stuff in the glowing cavern of life, death and rebirth.
Jacob: Yeah! Grab some mangos

On the less silly side...You bring up an interesting thought...what if they cremated Adam and Eve's bones?

#307. Posted by: undauntid at May 14, 2010 8:15 PM

This episode was disappointing for several reasons.

-- Jacob's the original 40 year old virgin. He was always mysterious and knowledgeable seemingly full of power; but in this episode, looked like a schmuck.

-- The execution of this episode was pretty poor. Casting of CJ as Fmom was a poor choice. She looked wooden in that role. Her delivery of the "Every question you ask" seemed heavy handed. Her murder of the pregnant woman was predictable and lame. Her attack of MIB was again predictable along w/ her irritating grunt.

-- This episode would have benifitted from the concept of "less is more" esp. w/ regards to the back story of Jacob and MIB.

--Creating a mystery of MIB's name was done very heavy handed. It was as if they were announcing that they weren't going to give it out. They could have withheld that info. but kept the dialogue less artificial.

-- I thought the Richard episode was a great reveal but at least connected w/ the ongoing story. This episode focussed on developing two/three characters but didn't really advance or touch on the "real" Losties.
The only pseudo-interesting portion of the show concerned the Adam/Eve skeleton; but this was shortlived as I realized that was all they were going to show of the losties.

-- The "fight" scenes were lame; the boys looked like they were girl-slapping even the last one was unaccomplished. The throwing into the pool was again too obvious; I was waiting for that to happen.

-- The acting in general was poor in quality. I didn't buy MIB's desire to leave based on the actor... in comparison, the beach scene w/ Jacob and MIB after Ricardo, "Just let me leave..." had much better acting. Again, CJ was terrible; I think she had no idea of her character's motivations (perhaps they wanted it to be a secret) and got the sense she didn't know if she was trying to lie or she was trying to tell the truth. OTOH, Ben Linus was much better when cast as Henry Gale originally. I think he had been told to just expect a run of 2-3 episodes and wasn't told much about his character.

-- The latin to English transition was stupid awkward. I thought I missed a "foom" At least, when CJ was speaking in latin, I couldn't tell how terrible she was acting.

-- They could have edited this episode in half; kept everything in latin w/ subtitles. I think they did a Jin/Sun flashbacks like that so there is precedence for having subtitles.

-- The sets seemed shabby; like someone decided to make a youtube episode of Lost.

-- The episode also suffered following two or three great ones which may have raised expectations.

#308. Posted by: DFTR at May 14, 2010 8:35 PM

@308. Posted by: DFTR

Been to any good floggings lately?

#309. Posted by: Revelation at May 14, 2010 9:44 PM

Yikes....

Off-topic, but man - Did those Boston Bruins choke or what? Up 3-0 in the series, then go to Game #7, be up 3-0, then collapse and lose 4-3. This is the polar opposite of what the Red Sox pulled off....

#310. Posted by: shikotee at May 14, 2010 10:04 PM

Saturday night (May 22, the night before the finale) they are airing the Pilot. Of all shows to re-air, they pick that one. I find it kind of interesting. Wonder if there were clues back then, but we had no way of knowing. I think we should watch it.
OH and how in the hell are they going to crap the ENTIRE show up in 2.5 hours? I just can't see how.
The answer must be easy...simple. Like the Dharma people have all these people in hospital beds and it's an experiment on their minds. BUT their body is not really there!!!!!

#311. Posted by: Christina at May 15, 2010 1:23 AM

I just read what I wrote and totally cracked myself up! I swear I meant to say wrap the entire show up! But I some how typed crap the entire show up. That is funny. Sorry for the boo boo.

#312. Posted by: Christina at May 15, 2010 1:26 AM

Gee, I thought that's what you meant.

#313. Posted by: Cecil at May 15, 2010 2:24 AM

Crap the whole thing up ... LOL!!! Freudian slip?

#314. Posted by: Revelation at May 15, 2010 3:24 AM

Whew . . . finally read them all. And the only thing I can think to say is "I'm crapped out!"

#315. Posted by: davidrh at May 15, 2010 7:33 AM

I'm confused re: the Darlton interview where they say (paraphrased...) "...we wanted to show why Jacob feels the way he does about men, and how MIB feels the way he does about men".

But in this epi, MIB LIKES men - he lives with them for 30 years, and seems pretty positive about them. Jacob doesn't exactly dislike them, but he definitely not pro-men.

Then much later, when they're watching the Black Rock sail by, their opinions are reversed.

So the Darlton comment confuses me -- this epi doesn't explain Jacob/MIB's attitudes at all. What eventually soured MIB on men & what made Jacob all yay! about them?

#316. Posted by: ebk at May 15, 2010 8:16 AM

MIB likes men :P

#317. Posted by: Mischa at May 15, 2010 8:33 AM

@303. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL
re: What was the point of the revelation?

@311. Posted by: Christina

Like the Dharma people have all these people in hospital beds and it's an experiment on their minds.

>>> The A&E reveal showed that Jack was only 2000 years off in his determination of time of death. Which adds another piece of evidence on a very old theory from Season 1: transference.

When TPTB screamed the island was not "purgatory," early alternative thinking included collective consciousness, mental patient dreams, game play or transference.

The idea that the main characters are NOT who we think they are; they are like kids playing make-believe roles of adults: Jack is not a doctor, Kate is not a criminal, Sawyer is not a con man.

Example, Jack. Both the marshal and Boone died in his care. He did not deliver Aaron. His surgery on Ben was filled with medical errors. We are shown Jack as a doctor, but it is a delusion by a person who wants us to look at him in a different way. If you want to find out-of-place episodes, look to the one where Jack goes to Thailand. What knowledgeable, successful doctor would go to Thailand, roll around with a crazy woman in dirty opium dens, and get a back alley tattoo "He walks among us, but is not one of us?" That episode made me feel Jack was not a doctor, but a rebellious drop out rich kid traveling the world seeking adventure at daddy's expense.

Add daddy issues to the concept of transference, you can have an individual with a neurosis that tries to change a person's past to succeed their parents, break parental controls, or escape from their own boring reality.

I agree that it is too late in the series to throw the whole concept into reverse by saying it was all about mind control experiments (even though the series is riddled with such clues like Room 23, Santa Rosa, Eloise the rat maze). But if TPTB are so stubborn in the position that the series is all about character development, character "destruction" is a viable alternative.

#318. Posted by: welh at May 15, 2010 10:33 AM

Well, Jack has experienced success with his spinal surgeries... I just wouldn't want him as my ER attending. He'd probably try to hack my leg off to fix my sprained ankle.
:)

#319. Posted by: Clementine at May 15, 2010 11:23 AM

TPTB will "crap the show up" by emphasizing just how much "MIB likes men". The sex scene will be very controversial, though many fans will be amused by the way MIB enjoys a smoke afterward.

#320. Posted by: shikotee at May 15, 2010 11:44 AM

#312. Posted by: Christina: "Sorry for the boo boo." ____Christian is that another typo? Didn't you mean to say, "Sorry for the poo poo." ?


#318. Posted by: welh: "character "destruction" is a viable alternative."
_____ I wouldn't call it "destruction", I think "restructuring" is a more descriptive word. In any case, I think that opportunity for each Lostee to begin anew is central to the theme of the show.

Every single day everyone has the opportunity to lay down the baggage they carry and begin anew, but few of us actually do it. Part of the difficulty with transforming ourselves is that the people we know, their perception of us, interfere with the process.

When the people on Oceanic 815 survived that crash, each of them was handed an empty slate. It seems that (until very recently) only Eko fully understood the opportunity; he is the only one who made an internal change, consequently, his transformation was total and permanent.

Yes, other survivors also made changes, but they still carry their baggage, they still doubt the integrity of the new self. Although Jack appears to have finally made the break through, which is why he is the one who will succeed Jacob.

Whether characters are on an island with mysterious properties or in revolutionary France or in 1969 Saigon, it's all about purgatory. The concept of purgatory is built in to the human experience. Life death rebirth.

My point is that LOST >ISIS< about a stay in a figurative purgatory, as any good character study always is.

#321. Posted by: undauntid at May 15, 2010 12:01 PM

correcting my own typos in #321: Christina, not "Christian".

down at the bottom just plain old verb >ISIsis<.

lmao

#322. Posted by: undauntid at May 15, 2010 3:10 PM

what the hell!!!! is, not isis.

#323. Posted by: undauntid at May 15, 2010 3:12 PM

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&)))))))))))

Need help figuring out....

How did Christian show up to Michael on the boat right before it blew up? That wasn't Smokey then, because he can't cross water, right? Wrong?


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&>>>>>


#324. Posted by: Mr.Naysayer at May 15, 2010 3:28 PM

@324. Posted by: Mr.Naysayer
re: How did Christian show up to Michael on the boat right before it blew up?

This is not yet clear. My guess is that it was not smokey - something to do with whatever it was that made the ghost of Claudia appear to MIB. If the lightforce is the source of all life, perhaps it has a way of projecting? We now know that the whispers are dead people trapped on the island - I would guess the lightforce has something to do with this.

The question is - is it active, or passive?

Does the lightforce simply enable the essence of these people to come forth, or does it (much like smokey does with other people's memories) use the essence of other people for its own purposes. Is the lightforce sentient, or is it simply a power source?

If considering that it was smokey - what would be the motivation to make this appearance? What would MIB be trying to achieve masquerading as Christian on the freighter? The freighter was within the snowglobe of the island, so I would think it is possible for it to be him.

In any case - I would expect that once the series ends, we will get a better idea of what was up with the various apparitions.

#325. Posted by: shikotee at May 15, 2010 4:27 PM

What is MIB's name? It's Cecil! Now, that's funny:

http://neverseenlost.wordpress.com/

#326. Posted by: Clementine at May 15, 2010 5:50 PM

Just thought I would share some of the insights from the "Lost... and Gone Forever" blog.

Click my name, and just like "the magic" behind the plotting of Lost, you will be there! ;)

It deals with this episode, the end of Lost, and the recent TPTB interview that Cecil linked. I offer some snippets....

On answers and the end of the show:

"It’s going to piss a lot of people off, but I think the creators of Lost are going in the complete opposite direction – they’re going to leave the book open. They’re going to leave volumes of unanswered questions – and questions that they only provide vague answers to, so that Lost lives on. The debate can continue. People can continue to pull together pieces of the overall Lost storyline to draw their own conclusions."

"If you’ve listened to the interviews and podcasts with Damon and Carlton over the years, you’ll notice that they continually refuse to answer some questions, telling us that it’s open to interpretation. A lot of us assumed that this was code for “we can’t reveal the true answer yet” – but now I think it’s clear that it was code for “we’re not going to answer it so that Lost can be everything to everyone.” There are no right or wrong answers. It’s kinda like interpreting art, or interpreting song lyrics – it’s going to be something different for everyone, but it’s going to be something personal for each person as well."

"Part of me likes that this means Lost will never end. Years from now, I can come back to it and view it totally differently than I view it today. People can continue to debate it and draw meaning from it. It becomes this living, breathing thing that lives on even after the show ends."

"On the other hand, I think that by doing this, the writers have kinda cheated. By knowing that they were never going to have to definitively answer some of these big questions, it’s allowed them to use them as plot points and twist them in ways that almost become contradictory. Those of us who are looking for the big answers to tie them all together have worked long and hard to try and tie together all the things we know into one cohesive theory – but it’s impossible (see: explaining Jacob’s Cabin)."

"Yes, Lost has decided to go a route that is going to make a lot of people angry. But when you stop worrying about needing the answers, it’s a lot easier to appreciate what they have given us – a whole hell of a lot of entertainment."

On the guardian/smokey:

"I think that The Woman was Jacob and Smokey all rolled into one. She was THE protector of the Island. Where did she come from? From the little information she gave, it sounds like she arrived on the Island “by accident”, just like Claudia – but that’s not important. This episode clearly is as far back in time as we’ll ever see on Lost, so let’s just accept that The Woman has been there for a really long time. She was the single entity who understood the power of the Island and her job was to protect it, no matter what the cost."

"The Woman knew that once Jacob discovered her dead body, he would throw Anti-Jacob into the Heart of the Island, thanks to all the little hints she dropped along the way (i.e. – “you can’t kill Anti-Jacob” and “going into the Heart of the Island won’t kill you, but it will be worse”)"

"The plan played out exactly as she wanted. With her death, Jacob became the Protector of the Island without having to go into the Heart of the Island himself. By throwing Anti-Jacob into the Heart of the Island, he became Smokey – gaining all the power needed to protect the Island, but not actually being the official Protector of the Island. Jacob is there to do the thinking, Anti-Jacob is there to do the killing. The Woman’s plan worked."

"(Note: Isn’t it ironic that the two individuals that have “been” the Smoke Monster didn’t have true names? The Woman and Anti-Jacob. That’s gotta be intentional on the writers’ part, but I’m not sure why.)"

In any case - I cite this because it is some pretty good reasoning. I recommend reading the full post...

#327. Posted by: shikotee at May 15, 2010 5:52 PM

I'm not worried about the crapping up of LOST. I expect there will be unanswered questions, but I also expect that we will have enough information by the end of the series to understand the essence of the island.

With regard to the writer's speculation on The Woman and Smokey: If Fommy was also Momster, she did a piss poor job of protecting the island; she had people mining for glow right under her/its nose.

"Jacob is there to do the thinking, Anti-Jacob is there to do the killing. The Woman’s plan worked."
____ No, it failed. The island ended up with a rogue smoke monster hell bent on escaping the island and murdering the island's guardian.

#328. Posted by: undauntid at May 15, 2010 7:54 PM

can't remember who said it, but somebody speculated that they might turn MIB's bones into ash. Just kind of made me wonder what happened to Jacob's ashes when Ilana went boom. Does anyone remember? It would be interesting to see what would happen if they mixed the two of them together.

#329. Posted by: surefoot at May 15, 2010 10:00 PM

Wanted to say thanks to Mac for such great recaps and the ability to always get us thinking!! I am a faithful reader, and sometimes poster, on this site and can't believe that the show is almost over! It's been a great 6 years and I have a feeling we won't be disappointed in the end...

But I have a new idea about the show. As a result of nonstop analyzing and thinking about Lost lately, especially after the last episode, my original thinking about the relationship between Jacob and MIB has been TOTALLY reversed!!! Here's what I'm thinking now:

Good and evil. Black and white, etc. etc. I've always thought this referred to Jacob and MIB. Jacob being pure good, MIB pure evil. I thought the game that they were playing represented the innate nature of each of them, with one good,the other bad. But now I see that the "game" they are playing is really just a game between them, not necessarily referring to which of them is good or evil. The "good" and "evil" refer to the pieces of the game -- otherwise known as our beloved Losties!
How many times have we seen the chess game with the black and white pieces being moved around the board... these pieces are the main characters we have come to know and love for 6 years on Lost, not Jacob and MIB. In Lost's purest form, the pieces, the characters, are the key to it all-- as has been said many times by the show's creators.

I think the game began when MIB was transformed into the Smoke Monster and Jacob became the new protector of the island. Jacob was able to make the rules in order to redeem himself for murdering his brother. The game was to see if mankind was evil or not. If humanity proves itself to be evil, then MIB's hypothesis is validated and he is perhaps never free to go "home" and must remain on the island. If humanity proves itself to be good, make good choices, demonstrate free will, then Jacob's hypothesis is validated, and maybe, just maybe, MIB will be free. I'm thinking that Jacob and Smokey's roles on the Island are dependent upon one another. You can't have Jacob without Smokey and you can't have Smokey without Jacob. (Even though Jacob supposedly "died," his influence still remains).

So with the whole notion of "they come, destroy, corrupt, it always ends the same," this means that the people, humans, upon being summoned to the island have in the past always proven themselves to be corrupt and tip the scale to the side of evil. Thereby proving MIB's theory-- man is not good, man is evil, etc. Jacob says that "it only ends once." Meaning it will just take the one time for the Losties to get it right for the situation to be reversed.

Somehow with these last candidates, the combination is just right. The Valenzzi Equation. The lottery numbers. The numbers of the final candidates represent the solution to it all. This combination of candidates exudes just the right amount of goodness and love because they all developed such emotional ties to each other. "Live together, die alone."

This combination of Losties will overcome the past mistakes and redeem themselves. Perhaps freeing the MIB for a rebirth as Aaron in the ALT timeline which is probably the original timeline and will be the timeline to ultimately prevail...

#330. Posted by: deb at May 15, 2010 10:54 PM

#321. undauntid
Didn't you mean to say, "Sorry for the poo poo." ?

NOW THAT CRACKED ME UP

#331. Posted by: Christina at May 16, 2010 2:17 AM

p.s. all those that laughed at me a couple weeks ago when I said I thought Adam & Eve might be the body of one of Jacob or MiB --- HA who's laughing now? :) If you saw I was only 4'8 this little wise mark wouldn't seem so tough :) hee hee

#332. Posted by: Christina at May 16, 2010 2:48 AM

@328. Posted by: undauntid
"Jacob is there to do the thinking, Anti-Jacob is there to do the killing. "

If this is so, God help us all. Jacob is squid stick momma's boy. ignorant, stupid, slow... with him doing the thinking we are all f'ed. MIB is none of these things, and our revered losties know nothing about any of this. They are victims of a dullards game.

#333. Posted by: Revelation at May 16, 2010 2:54 AM

Christina half kudos!!!! MIb is one of the skeptical and I stand corrected.

but with explanation. Jack said that the clothing had deteriorated about 50 years. This made the assumption of Jacob's age as much older than 50 years, given Richards longevity, which he said was given by Jacob, we know this to be over 120 years. That would make the MIB as Adam far older then 50 years, and not a reasonable candidate for Adam. But as we just found out, our assumptions mean nothing, and the impossible is reality. though your logic was flawed, you were correct by way of artistic pleasure.

I bow to you illogic, the inconsistent become real!

#334. Posted by: Revelation at May 16, 2010 3:05 AM

@334

So was Jack just plain wrong about the clothing looking like it was 50+- years old? OR did the Island prevent the clothing from decomposing? Did the dead bodies in the Black Rock have clothing that looked like it had decomposed for 120 years, or was their clothing also in relatively good condition? I know the answer doesn't matter in regards to the plot and the finale, but I'm just curious.

Anyone in DXB or nearby?

#335. Posted by: Skipper at May 16, 2010 3:23 AM

@335. Posted by: Skipper

I think Jack got it wrong, but the Dharma pit bodies clothing was consistent with decomposition of it's age. As far as the story line goes, the Adam and Eve clothing is at least 160 years old. I expect is more like 1000 years old. The island must have preserved it. As for the black rock, I only remember skeletons and strips of rags. I don't think we can accept anything told a real.

#336. Posted by: Revelation at May 16, 2010 5:07 AM

WOW

Just finished up to #330.

For a 'crappy' epi, there sure are alot of posts. (must be our anxiety of 'fini').

I've been taking in everything that everyone has posted, and I truly find myself on the perverbial fence. Sure there have been epi's that I loved and some I thought were lacking. But that's the nature of the beast (a TV series). I know we all have a million questions we want answers to... (mine is: What was the writing on the ceiling of the hatch when Locke almost got his leg crushed?)

I only wish I could articulate as well as a lot of you. (#203, #276, #280...etc) You have all hightened my LOST experience. Thank you All.

Anyhoo, at this stage of the game I get a little impatient with those that "make mountains out of moehills", (I was married for 15 years and alot of the posts remind me of the niggling that drives a person to dismissivness).

(Oh lordy, did I say that out loud?)

Changing gears now... "Crap Ups" (I truly loved that one) can be well done or poorly done after a sucessful run and often must be done on short notice. I think TPTB have done the best they can.

"Crap Ups":

* Deadwood vanished without a trace (to my complete and utter disapointment!)

* The X Files did it with a couple movies...

This leads me to the ALT ending of profound endings... let the mystery remain mysterious....

Twin Peaks


Thoughts to ponder... do I want the answers or do I want the mystery?
I like my Agatha Christie, Poirot, Midsommer Murders. I like it when they let me know who dunnit where with what and why. My perverted sense of competivness, where I like to think I can out-guess the outcome of the mystery and who the bad guy/gal is, the writers have hoodwinked me and the Bad Guy wasn't who I thought it was :( I love that challenge. In this case, I'm conflicted: I want the answers, but I want the mystery!?!?

The script has already been written. At this point, all our harping won't change a dang thing.

To quote:

" A Good Begining, Makes A Goof Ending"

#337. Posted by: tweedle_dee at May 16, 2010 5:11 AM

sorry,
that was supposed to be

"A Good Beginning Makes a Good Ending"

(gotta trim the finger nails)

#338. Posted by: tweedle_dee at May 16, 2010 5:20 AM

@ #329. Posted by: surefoot at May 15, 2010 10:00 PM
Jacob’s ashes are in a bag that Hurley posses. After Ilana suffered her unfortunate demise, he opened the bagthat was with her gear to see what was in it. The camera shot did not actually show the ashes but by the expression of disgust on Hurley’s face, I assumed it was the ashes. Now Hurley has one effective weapon to use against the Smoke Monster! Way to go, Hurley!
LOST Fan

#339. Posted by: LOST Fan at May 16, 2010 6:49 AM

@337 tweedle_dee pointed out:

>For a 'crappy' epi, there sure are alot of posts. (must be our anxiety of 'fini').

I think it probably holds the record for average LENGTH of post, too. A lot of brilliant and legthy analysis.


... perverbial fence...

A fence to keep perverts in?

>"Crap Ups":

>* Deadwood vanished without a trace (to my complete and utter disapointment!)

Deadwood was cancelled very late int he game (supposedly s the creator could concentrate on the next big thing "John from Cleveland" which was interesting in a quirky way, but went over like a lead balloon, possibly due to hexes cast by all the Deadwood fans.

Nevertheless, they did a least try to wrap up the story lines somewhat. I hope, pray and expect that LOST does a lot better.

#340. Posted by: Cecil at May 16, 2010 9:12 AM

*********SPOILER************
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In next ep's sneak peek, boy Jacob grab's grown up Jacob's ashes back from Hugo. He physically grabs it from Hugo and runs. So he's real? Why didn't Alpert see him then? Is it really Jacob, reborn? It couldn't be Smokey, who is 'Locked', right? Why does he need the ash now? I am definitively teased by this.
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**********END OF SPOILER****************

#341. Posted by: Mischa at May 16, 2010 11:41 AM

As if to help balance out the Star Wars/Lost discussions we've had here, George Lucas wrote a letter to TPTB, which was read at the recent Lost:Live event.

"Congratulations on pulling off an amazing show. Don’t tell anyone … but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories — let’s call them homages — and you’ve got a series.

In six seasons, you’ve managed to span both time and space, and I don’t think I’m alone in saying that I never saw what was around the corner. Now that it’s all coming to an end, it’s impressive to see how much was planned out in advance and how neatly you’ve wrapped up everything. You’ve created something really special. I’m sad that the series is ending, but I look forward to seeing what you two are going to do next."

Damon Lindelof’s response:

"I apologize for everything I said about the prequels."

LoL!

#342. Posted by: shikotee at May 16, 2010 12:14 PM

#333. Posted by: Revelation: referring to my post at @328..."Jacob is there to do the thinking, Anti-Jacob is there to do the killing. "
___ That was a quote by another poster which I forgot to credit (sorry poster!)

Revelation then continues: "If this is so, God help us all. Jacob is squid stick momma's boy. ignorant, stupid, slow... with him doing the thinking we are all f'ed. MIB is none of these things, and our revered losties know nothing about any of this. They are victims of a dullards game."

To which I now respond: If by "mama's boy, ignorant, stupid, slow" you mean that Jacob is nice and if you mean by "MIB is none of these things" that MIB is not nice....then I agree with you. lol.

But that is not what you mean, so I disagree with you on this.

Also, you say "and our revered losties know nothing about any of this. They are victims of a dullards game."
____ I disagree with this assertion as well. Our Lostees are very aware they are in the center of a conflict (the game). They are aware that they are being manipulated in this conflict between Jacob on one side and Flocke on the other side. They just don't know what the rules are and (until very recently) they did not know the stakes.

#343. Posted by: undaunted at May 16, 2010 1:44 PM

@343 - undauntid
Interesting. We see these two in completely different ways. I can't wait to see how wrong/right I got it. A large part of why I love this show is that I can be 180 degrees from right on something and still love the outcome.

#344. Posted by: Revelation at May 16, 2010 3:18 PM

#334. Revelation
you make me laugh, I like you

Never can know with this show what is.... real!!

and #335 and #336
I just figured the bodies once dead would age (decompose) at such a slow rate that Jack would not be able to tell their age (time of death).

#345. Posted by: christina at May 16, 2010 3:58 PM

My take on some on-going blog arguments:

I have never believed Smokey is pure evil nor did I feel that MIB was pure evil. We now know MIB was NOT evil in any way and the jury is still out on Smokey, his level of evil and how his energy relates to MIB (which came first: the chicken or the egg). It seems as though Smokey might do evil things but only to bad people or people that ultimately get in the way of his goals. He scans. He judges. He kills or he retreats. We all loved Eko...but redemption or not, he was a bad man and paid the price. Richard was pure; his crimes only for the love of his wife and was spared by Smokey.

Is Jacob good? I'm sorry. I don't see it. Sitting back and playing a game to prove your point seems pretty evil to me. Remaining silent while so many people die to feed your ego or your guilt or your shame seems pretty evil. Manipulating so many people while claiming it's all for the greater good seems evil to me.

Two sides....We have all been debating who is good and who is evil. MIB vs. Jacob. Widmore vs. Ben. The Others vs. The Losties. And which Losties fit where. In the end, there are two sides and those two sides are in each of us. MIB and Smokey are/is good and evil. So is Jacob. So was Mom CJ. So was Mr. Happy. So Is Ben. So are all of us.

I have been constantly frustrated and perplexed by the question: Did the producers have it planned all along? We all seem to have different takes...here's mine: The show is about destiny. It seems we will discover that no matter what timeline the characters live through, their destiny will arrive, sometimes on its own, sometimes with Desmond's help. Any divergence is simply a detour that will eventually double back to the original destiny. So too, the writers had a vision. In reality, this season was not thought out. We know that. But the end; the desinty has been there since day one. Characters come and go, mistakes made and fixed, storylines expanded, a strike, a contract dispute, too many fans solving the puzzle too early...and the producers and writers take detours....alternate timelines that all lead us back to the same place...the next 3.5 hours.

#346. Posted by: Steve at May 16, 2010 9:03 PM

Ok, I've tried keeping up but I'm falling further behind in the comments and I've said absolutely nothing to contribute to the conversation this week. Here's something that I thought was incredibly deep and apropos regarding the island and the light that Jacob/MIB's "mother" showed them in the cave. It comes from Doc Jensen, in talking about what the light represents, what the island's guardians (like the Others) think of their role and what the human nature factor of interpreting what the island is does to the guardians:

"The history of human catastrophe on The Island is comprised of eras of dogmatic, abusive interpretation run amok."

In that single sentence one can find application to Ben, Widmore, Dogen, pretty much anyone who ever was in power on The Island and likely for generations and generations going back in time as far as one can look. "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt, and it always ends the same," is a testament to Jensen's statement.

Jacob's transformation from unquestioning rube into Island guardian upon drinking the wine (a symbolic act, the wine had no real powers in and of itself) was accomplished because he now had all of the knowledge of everything that his "mother" had. When she said to him "now we are the same" she didn't mean just in stature. She meant it literally in many ways. That knowledge, and the power that came with it, go hand-in-hand, subject to the individual human's own idiosyncrasies and temperament. While Jacob was thrust into a role he never thought was in his destiny, he subsequently embraced it and has since made it his own in the centuries that have proceeded.

Here's the catch, though. MIB demonstrated his own "powers", those that perhaps he channels through the island or for which he had before he was born. Nevertheless, the ability to "just know" things (like what the game was that washed upon the shore or the fact that Locke would appear at a specific point in time and needed to be given a compass by Richard at that point in time) and see things (like his real mother, and talk to her as well), set in motion the events that culminated in Jacob's death. To this day, even, he has abilities that are not because of his being a smoke monster (Although no doubt aided by that) but rather because of the unique skills he demonstrated before turning into a smoke monster. One must wonder how much of his abilities today are natural.

#347. Posted by: LostedIt at May 16, 2010 9:16 PM

I don't get the angst over the debate on whether this was all completely planned out or not.

Can it be possible that some overly critical viewers are actually applying a 100% standard that every plotline and every character must have been preplanned in excruciating detail?

It sounds ridiculous, but how else to interpret the angry postings that land here week after week?

IMO, a good litmus test is season 1, when TPTB did not know if they would reach a full season, let alone six. Rewatching season 1 would reveal the introduction of the following themes and plot lines:

1. White vs. Black, as explained by Locke in his backgammon lesson to Walt, the black and white gemstones found with the "Adam and Eve" skeletons, and Claire's vision of a demonic Locke, with one white and one black eye.

2. Redemption and resurrection- when Kate tries to reveal her criminal past to Jack, he answers "Kate, who we were - what we did before this, before the crash. It doesn't really—3 days ago we all died. We should all be able to start over.".

3. The island contains massive magnetic energy, as demonstrated by Sayid's "defective" compass. This will be confirmed immediately at the beginning of season 2, when we see inside the hatch.

4. MIB/Smokey's loophole plot- Smokey scans Locke the first time he enters the jungle, an experience Locke describes as "I looked into the eye of the island, and what I saw was beautiful". The "island" will then lead Locke to discover both the hatch and the Beechcraft (site of the Pearl), although Walt will warn him against this path.

Meanwhile, MIB as Christian leads Jack to the empty coffin, which will become an important plot point in the return of the Oceanic 6.

5. The numbers as a predestined call to the island, as noted by Hurley, Rousseau, and their appearance on the side of the hatch (reinforced immediately in season 2, where the numbers must be entered in the hatch computer to prevent the end of the world).

6. The fact that many others had been brought and/or crashed on the island, including Rousseau's team, the Nigerian drug smugglers, and the Black Rock, with its prisoners in chains.

7. That other survivors of Oceanic were also on the island, based on Rose's assertions that Bernard was alive, and Boone hearing the response "we're the survivors of flight 815" on the Beechcraft radio.

8. That a native tribe of "Others" lived on the island, as revealed through Rousseau's story of their taking Alex, Ethan's kidnapping of Claire, and Tom Friendly and crew attacking the raft.

9. Introduced the beginnings of the Dharma initiative, via the polar bears, the hatch (with someone in it turning on the light), the radio transmission and tower, and the discovery of the cable that will lead to the Looking Glass station.

I say kudos to Darlton for a pretty impressive start.

If you want to include the beginning of season 2 as preplanned ideas, we got not only the massive energy under the hatch capable of destroying the world, but also Desmond and his specialness, the blast door map, detailed background on the Others and Dharma, the statue of Tawaret, etc.

And btw, we're still talking about all of this stuff 4-5 years later....

#348. Posted by: Mizzed at May 17, 2010 1:33 AM

Maybe the candidate is to replace the smoke monster and not Jacob. Maybe Jacob and came up with a plan to replace smokie so that his brother's soul can be let go and rest in peace. I don't think the Island needs a protector - who is protecting it now after Jacob's death? no one is protecting it and MIB even said, "the island doesn't need protecting, it's all a lie" (or something like that).

@348 Mizzed, Thank you, nicely done.

#349. Posted by: Skipper at May 17, 2010 3:04 AM

Maybe the candidate is to replace the smoke monster and not Jacob. Maybe Jacob and came up with a plan to replace smokie so that his brother's soul can be let go and rest in peace. I don't think the Island needs a protector - who is protecting it now after Jacob's death? no one is protecting it and MIB even said, "the island doesn't need protecting, it's all a lie" (or something like that).

@348 Mizzed, Thank you, nicely done.

#350. Posted by: Skipper at May 17, 2010 3:05 AM

I wonder who MIB & Jacob's father is. I wonder if he was on the boat with Claudia when it shipwrecked. Claudia said that she needed to find her people (right before she was killed with a coconut-gram), she never said anything about finding her husband. If the Father was on the ship, and survived, then MIB would have been living with his father during those 30 years. Opens up all sorts of possibilities for daddy issues.

I didn't see anyone mention the parallels that Mother drew to the Virgin Mary when she said that MIB and Jacob came from her, just like she came from her mother before. Immaculate conception.

#351. Posted by: Skipper at May 17, 2010 5:34 AM

A couple of points I thought of moving forward.

1. The ash that keeps Smokey in one place, whoose ash is it? I thought it might of been Smokey's original body but as we saw the body was never burnt.

2. Clearly the Island moved of its own volition prior to the existence of the donkey wheels. The Roman empire never went anywhere near the Pacific, nor did the Hellenic Empires. The Island must have moved into the Med, or Black Sea.

3. I liked this episode, ok so it jumped the shark, but lost has been doing that ever since we first saw a donkey wheel.

#352. Posted by: Kris London at May 17, 2010 9:16 AM

@326 Clementine revealed my secret identity:

>What is MIB's name? It's Cecil! Now, that's funny:

>http://neverseenlost.wordpress.com/

I DENY EVERYTHING!


Clementine,

We really need you on the Mac's Flocke Facebook group, unless you're already there, of course. (It's so confusing going by real names!)

#353. Posted by: Cecil at May 17, 2010 9:26 AM

Flash!

Proof that MIB is a good guy.

Click my name to see.

Not that there's any relation or anything.

#354. Posted by: Cecil at May 17, 2010 10:12 AM

@348 Mizzed

Thanks for the great recap I totally forgot about Claires vision of Locke with B&W eyes. I'm trying to puzzle out where we are going with the finale and starting back at the beginning is the best place to go.

@351 - Skipper

Wasn't her skirt BLUE underneath the drab brown overshirt/apron? If I remember my relgious teaching, the Virgin Mary is represented by the colout blue

#355. Posted by: lostncyberspace at May 17, 2010 11:33 AM

@354. Posted by: Cecil

The one thing I noticed this time when MIB returns to the burning village is that not only are the bodies not burned, but one body clearly has a knife stabbed into the leg. Could this be considered evidence against a smokey being involved? I guess it would also be possible that human form was maintained for part of the attack. Or who knows - perhaps he tried to stab the smoke, only to stab himself?

#356. Posted by: shikotee at May 17, 2010 12:17 PM

#351. Posted by: Skipper : "I didn't see anyone mention the parallels that Mother drew to the Virgin Mary when she said that MIB and Jacob came from her, just like she came from her mother before. Immaculate conception."

Nothing on the show indicates that the twins were products of a virgin birth.

Also, the Immaculate Conception does not refer to the virgin birth of Jesus. It is in reference to Mary, the mother of Jesus, being born without original sin...thus Mary was the immaculate conception, born without sin.

#357. Posted by: undauntid at May 17, 2010 12:18 PM

Crazy to think about it, but in less than 7 days, there will be no more.

Egads!

#358. Posted by: shikotee at May 17, 2010 12:35 PM

I just read that Saturday's rebroadcast of the pilot episode will be enhanced. Oh my.


"This is Jack Shepard. He is on Flight 815 from Sydney to Los Angeles."

"This flight attendant is Cindy. It is her evil scarf which will cause Jack and his fellow passengers much pain in suffering in the future."

#359. Posted by: welh at May 17, 2010 1:07 PM

@357 undauntid
Nothing on the show indicates that the twins were products of a virgin birth.
Also, the Immaculate Conception does not refer to the virgin birth of Jesus. It is in reference to Mary, the mother of Jesus, being born without original sin...thus Mary was the immaculate conception, born without sin.
************
Yes, I agree that nothing indicates the twins were of a virgin birth from our (the viewer) point of view. But i think that "Mother" alluded that she gave birth to them without the help of a man. "You came from me and I came from my mother". She lied to the twins about being their mother and alluded that they came from her alone.

Now, about the immaculate conception. Wow, that's news to me. I'm non-Christian and I didn't know that immaculate conception referred to Mary's birth. All these years I thought it referred to the miracle of the birth of Jesus. You taught me something new, thanks for replying to my post!

#360. Posted by: Skipper at May 17, 2010 1:40 PM

There has been some significant and valid skepticism about MIB/Smokey's motives to "go home," and that this would be the driving force behind all of his actions.

I was at a funeral recently and the priest said of the deceased that he was finally, "going home."

I am an atheist but I know that different religions have different definitions of "purgatory." Some conisder it "hell" while others think of it as that in-between place before we get to heaven. Some religions consider our life on Earth the hell that we will finally escape when we "go home" to a better place in death.

The "purgatory" explanantion of Lost was dismissed by TBTB and others a while ago. But I still contend that the island is this purgatory in one way or another. It is certainly a place that can grip you for an eternity unless you are clever enough to find a loop-hole.

Perhaps for MIB, going home really was seeing what was across the sea. But for Smokey and whatever part of MIB he still has in him, going home may be moving on the the next life. Escaping this eternal-damnation and finally getting to go to a better place.

Maybe Smokey is the true protector and maybe Fmom was a smokey too and clearly MIB was more special than Jacob. Whatever the case, being a smoke monster is truly a burden that will drive people to a lifetime (thousands of years) of manipulating everyone (including Jacob) for one simple reason....To be killed within the confines of the silly rules and released from the island/purgatory and free to finally "go home."

Smokey wants to be killed as Fmom wanted to be killed. Naive Jacob is getting in his way because he is not special and is a little boy playing in the majors with some very special people. Correction...Jacob may be special too...but more in that way that we tell little kids who may not be as smart or curious as the other kids to make them feel better. You know...Everyone is special. But Fmom and MIB and Hurley and Miles...These people are SPECIAL!

#361. Posted by: Steve at May 17, 2010 1:40 PM

It is interesting to note that all comments regarding Eloise Hawking have disappeared from blog this week!

#362. Posted by: MySoulmateDigsLost at May 17, 2010 3:11 PM

@348 Mizzed:

You are correct that TPTB outlined layer upon layer of mysterious story lines at the beginning of the show. But for some people, it appears that several puzzles were thrown into one box, making many pieces totally irrelevant in the end.

1. White v. Black is open to several interpretations to the literal (Jacob and MIB) to the philosophical (good v. evil). It may or may not be the key to the finale.
2. Redemption/resurrection is the long dismissed purgatory concept, which is still a viable solution if the big premise is about testing souls in the after life.
3. The EM energy on the island could be a possible solution if properly explained.
4. The smoke monster is playing a factor as the story winds down.
5. The numbers as mere markers for candidates names held no real significance except coincidence (which probably bummed out theorists the most).
6. The concept of people being "brought" to the island is another unknown part of the solution or possible mere story line filler.
7. & 8. Widmore's Others and the Tailies. With the exception of whatever role Widmore will play, the Others and the Tailies were more filler atory arcs.
9. Dharma story line appears to be immaterial to the end game.
10. The Hatch seems immaterial except for the introduction of Desmond, whose final role is unknown.
11. Blast Door Map appears irrelevant to the final solution.
12. Tawaret and Egyptology appear irrelevant unless the premise is about the after life.

Part of the collective angst is that many of the seemingly important elements of the show could be rendered immaterial or irrelevant, while new concepts out of left field play a more important role in concluding the show.

#363. Posted by: welh at May 17, 2010 3:20 PM

Woo hoo! I just saw that there's a FB page for all of us to join. I've just joined. It feels great to know so many of us will be able to keep going and sharing long after Lost has broadcast its final episode (sob!). So proud to have been a part of this group for so long and looking forward to continuing.

So, with Jacob as the guardian and MIB more of a long-time prisoner than anything else, and really for no valid reason, one must start thinking the broader scope - about how this all started, if it ever really "started". The individual humans that act as guardian are merely taking on a job. They are still human and have human foibles, human problems, human needs. Eventually they tire of the position and need to find a replacement, despite their desire to guard the island for as long as possible. What is comes down to is this - are they all being put into a long con as well? I'll explain.

Each of them apparently gets to make "the rules" once they're "in power", but who/what put them in power? I'm proposing that The Island itself put them there, from the very first guardian all the way through to Jacob. So what is The Island? A living entity? A corporeal representation of all of humanity's essence? A physical manifestation/representation of some higher power? This is an answer that we may never get, but what if The Island is in fact at least sentient? A living thing? The question then becomes why does it need a guardian? Even further, why would it need a human guardian, given all of its apparent power? To guard some shining gateway and/or essence of power hidden deep beneath it? It already jumps around the planet, apparently, based on the pendulum-mapping scheme we saw that is used to track it. It can grant a human being great power. It can stop someone from getting killed, no matter where on Earth they reside (see: Michael trying to kill himself). So why wouldn't something so powerful be able to protect itself? Perhaps go somewhere that it couldn't be harmed? Ah, now there's something I want to discuss further, but first I want to pursue the who "long con" thing first.

So, this Island, with its powers and it's mystery and everything else about it, what if it hasn't been telling its guardian the truth? One thing we know by now on Lost is that nobody really tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Many times what people say or demonstrate are outright lies, even to us, the viewers. We now know that Jacob and MIB can both lie - they're human beings. Everyone lies on this show (or at least hide/don't speak of the truth) to further their own personal agendas. Just as importantly, many people on this show think they're doing the right thing and the ends justify the means. So why should we believe that level of truth/lies stops at the guardian? What if the guardian is also being lied to? By none other than The Island?

Think about it, so many people have done terrible things on this show for the "greater good" or to further the "ultimate goal", what if The Island itself has an ultimate goal? "Mother" lied to her "children" for most of their lives, in some ways even until the day she died. She was just another self-serving leader. What if The Island has been lying to her, and all of the other guardians, about who/what the Island is, what it represents to humanity, and what the "glowing cavern" really is? I hate to even propose this, because we as a group have already declared this a "must not" on our list of possibilities, but what if The Island is actually an alien life form or sentient space craft of some sort and is using humanity for its own benefit? I'd hate that to be true but it does fit the pattern.

Let's assume that's definitely not true simply because I think every fan of Lost has already said quite firmly that better not be where this all goes. The show truly is about the characters and while the mysteries are all intriguing and we'd really like some answers, I somehow feel that we'd be more satisfied with a successful resolution to their stories than we would getting every answer about every mystery involving The Island. Don't get me wrong, I've got my list of absolutes regarding answers we really need (like why was Walt "special" and is it the same "special" that BIB demonstrated?) but biggest on my list after character resolution is definitely more along the lines of "don't screw this up with answers we don't want" than "I've got to have these answers or I won't be satisfied". Does that sound contradictory given everything I've said in the past and much of what we've all discussed as a group here in general? I do suppose it is. The problem I'm encountering is that we've got basically one more episode plus a 2 and a half hour series finale (sob!) left to go. Answers are going to come, and in some ways they're going to come fast and furious. But after the recent 4-5 episodes, I'm feeling a little scarred or traumatized either by the way some of the answers were given (see: Hurley giving a scooby-doo "so the voices are all souls that haven't passed over" in like two seconds flat) or the actual answers themselves (like the numbers are the place on a compass that each of the Losties could be viewed through the Lighthouse mirrors).

What it comes down to is I'd rather they didn't damage the myth, the aura of the show by revealing an answer we hate much more than I would having an answer. Is that a cop-out? Probably. But given some of the execution so far I'm starting to twitch as I watch each episode, wondering what they're going to do next that's going to take my favorite show ever just a little notch further down. I want more of the S3 finale-type episodes where I literally got out of my seat and whooped when Hurley came barreling out of nowhere in the Dharma van and they killed those others (including Mr. Friendly) than I would the Nikki and Paulo fillers or the disheartening methodical progress-lacking move-the-pieces around the board episodes that in many ways we often see, even if those piece moves are punctuated with small juicy bits in between.

So, to summarize, The Island could very well be the ultimate answer we get, but people need to think of things in the context of the "long con" or the fact that everyone lies, which means many of the things we hold as fact (like the fact that there are hard and fast rules when in reality it appears it's often based on the whims of the guardian in place at the time) could be lies as well, or misunderstandings on the part of the person/people that spoke it at the very least. Secondly, the answers we get, we may find questioning whether they are worth getting once we have them if the answer that TPTB decide to give differs vastly from either what we've been led to believe so for or from what we've speculated them to be when information has been lacking so far.

Ok, I've spoken my peace. Go Mac's Flocke! We live on forever on FB! ;)

#364. Posted by: LostedIt at May 17, 2010 3:27 PM

363 - welh -

Angst - good word. Even if all of this turns out to be true, and the themes that most of here speculated on turn out be filler, or not relevent, I really had fun postualting. The statue was a big rush, all the egyptian stuff. The hatch, the incident... All kept me interested and entertained.

I will have no regrets for having stuck with show, invested time and intellectual space, even for bugging the hell out my family, and screaming at the TV.

#365. Posted by: Revelation at May 17, 2010 3:34 PM

Oh, so I said I was going to get back to the idea of The Island going somewhere that it couldn't be harmed. Forgot to finish that thought. Here's the continuation.

So, going back to what I'd discussed in my last post, what if The Island is itself as much a self-serving lying entity as everyone on the island? What if the guardians are the ultimate cons? They're protecting something under the premise that they're saving humanity, but what if that's a lie? What if the only protection they're providing is for The Island itself, whatever The Island may turn out to be? Now suppose that lie were finally to be found out? Either The Island would have to "abandon ship" and protect itself somehow or the Losties, even the guardian, might have to do something to finally break The Island's grip on all that it has influence over. Could the ultimate battle not be between the people on The Island but rather those people against The Island? It's an interesting twist. In the Alt-timeline, The Island sits under water, buildings and all. It got there somehow. How? That, to me, is going to be the ultimate answer, that one where we find out what The Island is which will lead directly to why it's under the water in the Alt-timeline. What did the bomb with no name ;) that went off in the S5 finale do to The Island? Is Eloise Hawking merely a pawn or even more amazingly merely a manifestation of The Island itself? Things to ponder.

Now granted, if there's one things I've learned from this season it's that whatever road we think they're leading the story down it's usually the opposite one that ends up actually happening or turning out to be the truth, so everything I've speculated could be wrong and probably should be wrong. But in 6 days (OMG OMG O-M-G) it's all going to be "in the bag" and we'll have nothing left to speculate, or at least nothing left to speculate for which we can ever expect (or hope) to get answers to.

So I bid adieu yet again. Must get back to work. Hope everyone is having a great week. See you here AND on FB!!!!

#366. Posted by: LostedIt at May 17, 2010 3:47 PM

Where did we hear about the Valenzetti equation? Was it in the episodes, or was it in one of the other 'non-canon' sources? I kinda feel I missed something here.

#367. Posted by: ebk at May 17, 2010 6:49 PM

What's the significance of children being raised by people other than their parents?

Clare was giving up Aaron for adoption, and Kate had him for a while (what was it the fortune-teller told her again? I forget.)
Ben stole Alex from Rousseau
Little Kwon is with grandmother
Dogen came to the island to save his son, presumably leaving his son to be raised by someone else (we saw no mother at the piano recital).
Jacob and MIB raised by FMother.

Clare is a zombie, Alex and Danielle are dead, Kwons are dead, Dogen is dead, real mother and FMother are dead. Hmm. Will Ben die too?

#368. Posted by: BostonSteve at May 17, 2010 7:00 PM

#368. Posted by: BostonSteve: "What's the significance of children being raised by people other than their parents?"

___ No doubt, parenthood is very important, so important that I am convinced that the reason Kate was crossed off the candidate's list is because she left to raise Aaron.

#369. Posted by: undauntid at May 17, 2010 7:42 PM

Meant to comment earlier but when Fmom said that Jacob didn't have a choice, that he had to accept the responsibility to protect the island, that was patently false. He did have a choice, he even paused to consider it. Just because someone tells you that you don't have a choice doesn't make it so. I bring this up because fate vs. freewill is one of the show's themes, and, as someone mentioned previously, the 815ers might just spit in the eye of "destiny" and finally put an end to "it."

#370. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 17, 2010 7:55 PM

@367 ebk asked:

>Where did we hear about the Valenzetti equation? Was it in the episodes, or was it in one of the other 'non-canon' sources? I kinda feel I missed something here.

It comes from "The Lost Experience" a role-playing net game that was an official and canon source of information, but more supplemental than essential.

It began with 'commercials' for the Hanso Foundation inserted into the show in season 2. It led to spending the summer between seasons 2 and 3 on a mad net and real-world search for clues.

It was mostly an explanation of the Dharma Initiative - their motivations and politics, and was a lot of fun and and a great excercise in cooperatve problem solving world-wide by really fanatic fans.

I wrote it up for the blog - my first real writing experience here - at the time I was timidly and hesitantly pushing out my first few posts on the episodes - and mac graciously published it. You can read about it - just click my name below for the link.

#371. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 17, 2010 11:22 PM

Incidentally, Comment 21 under "The Lost Experience Explained" may well contain DavidRH's first cry of existential angst, not as fully developed as it currently is "AAAHHHHHHHHHH!"

#372. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 17, 2010 11:38 PM


:-)

#373. Posted by: davidrh at May 18, 2010 8:00 AM

@363/welh:

lol! Well done, my glass half-empty sparring partner. I'm surprised you were so light in your response to the spiritual purgatory angle, since the afterlife has been your viewpoint for years, correct?

Somewhere between my guarded optimism and your healthy skepticism probably lies the truth on the plotting and conception of Lost.

It will be a shame that all of this banter and debate will come to an end so soon!

It will be interesting to see if the ending is so open-ended, that fans will continue to debate its ending for years, or if they will tie it up into a neat bow like so many from the "We want answers" camp are demanding. Seems to me the more that is left unanswered, the greater the lifespan this series will have...???

#374. Posted by: Mizzed at May 18, 2010 8:33 AM

@374/Mizzed:

Yes, purgatory then the heavy influence of the Egyptian after life was where I thought TPTB could claim the most "cover" in explaining/not explaining the island mysteries.

I believe more and more as Season 6 went on that the show would end with diminished expectations, and the "open ended" ending is a real probability.

There will be a cottage industry after LOST ends of fans writing about how they would have wrapped things up (to counterbalance any disappointment).

#375. Posted by: welh at May 18, 2010 9:06 AM

@375 welh predicted:

>There will be a cottage industry after LOST ends of fans writing about how they would have wrapped things up (to counterbalance any disappointment).

I beat the crowd by posting mine early, over on Mac's Flocke - click my name to see. (scroll down to the long one).

#376. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 18, 2010 9:16 AM

The End Is Nigh!

@376. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Alas - Your link requires that an individual be signed into a FB account for it to work (one of FB's many many spawning techniques). :(

#377. Posted by: shikotee at May 18, 2010 9:33 AM

The Island is Bad, mmmkay?

What if the Sideways Universe isn't actually the sideways universe, but the Island is the sideways universe? What if, right before it crashed, flight 815 was always in this sideways universe. But, when it crashed on the island, it was brought into an alternate universe? The universe of the island; an evil universe? A universe where everyone's past (what we see in flashbacks) is different?

The "progress" is attempts to destroy the island, so that everyone can stay in their regular universe. The Island is Evil. People are brought to the island, and bad things happen. They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt.

It only ends once, the rest is progress. The end being the island is destroyed, sunken to the bottom of the sea. When this happens, all is right with the world, no more people in the wrong universe. The progress is people continually being brought as a means to this end.

#378. Posted by: BostonSteve at May 18, 2010 9:55 AM

@378, continued

when the island is destroyed, people "go home" to the proper universe

#379. Posted by: BostonSteve at May 18, 2010 9:58 AM

@378. Posted by: BostonSteve

I could see it being something like that. If the sideways world does pan out to be the happy ending, they need to justify the island experiences, other than the endgame itself.

#380. Posted by: shikotee at May 18, 2010 10:47 AM

@377 shikotee bemoaned:

>The End Is Nigh!

>@376. Posted by: Cecil Rose

>Alas - Your link requires that an individual be signed into a FB account for it to work (one of FB's many many spawning techniques). :(

OK, then here 'tis for those that choose not to FB:

Cecil Rose: I don't think, given last week, that the program will end this way, but I had hoped for a hard SF ending along the lines of:

MIB and Jacob are crewman of an interstellar slowship - i.e. one that cruises at less than lightspeed and takes centuries to travel between the stars. They've been bio-engineered to live extremely long lives and also psychologically conditioned against harming each other - you can get on each other's nerves a lot over a thousand year voyage.

As they approach Earth thousands of years ago, some accident partly disables their interstellar drive, and they guide the thirty mile long spaceship to a landing on earth. They dive to the bottom of the seas, and pick up a load of sediment to disguise their ship as an island. Over the years, ocean currents bring seeds and plants from other islands, and the ecosysten takes over. The ship/island has limited ablity to 'jump' (say a few thousand miles) and they use it to avoid being discovered, along with advanced stealth and anti-optical/radiation technology as man's technology develops. They have the knowledge, but not the manpower or materials to fabricate the parts or materials they need to repair the ship. So they proceed to wait the thousands of years it will take earthlings to develop the technology they need repair it and get on their way.

To amuse himself, and gauge whether men have learned enough to be helpful, Jacob occasionally travels off the island and influences men (Egyptians, Phoenicians, Romans, Aztecs, even Dharma and the US Army) to come to the island. None are allowed to return, lest they give away the secrets. Each builds on the island in the manner they are accustomed to, hence, Aztec temples, Egyptian statues and hieroglyphs, the Latin Language, etc.

But mankind is getting too slippery and some from the US Army and Dharma manage to leave the island again despite the best Jacob can do to prevent it. It would seem that human technology is just about available today to allow the aliens to make their repairs, but Jacob has grown so fond of playing god that he's lost sight of the original intent to get help, repair the ship and go home.

MIB, on the other hand, just wants to get back home, but thinks he'll have to kill Jacob somehow to bring it about, else Jacob will never let them leave. He enlists Jack to aid him and together they obtain the necessary materials to repair the ship, but in the meantime the Losties have, somehow created time-travel by messing with the ship's energies, and created a classical Schroedinger's box paradox - the bomb they set either did or didn't go off, and we see the possible outcomes based on whether it did or didn't, but until someone can 'open the box' i.e. view the system from outside the system, neither timeline is the 'real' timeline.

Jack discovers that while his dad was off catting around in Australia, Jacob was doing the same in California, and is his real father, thus he is half alien (and "He walks among us but is not one of us", thus finally making 'Stranger in a Strange Land' relevant to the story.) This somehow makes him the only one that can influence the outcome. He time travels back to the bottom of the hole at the moment Juliet was banging on the bomb and either helps her, or holds her back, thus causing a collapse of the probablilty functions and one of the timelines to become real, the other disappearing in a puff of probability.

You decide which one he chooses and why.


#381. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 18, 2010 10:49 AM

@381/Cecil:

Your premise is similar to another early Season 1 theory that the island was a floating alien Area 51.

#382. Posted by: welh at May 18, 2010 10:54 AM

Big question.

Who is Harper Stanhope?

#383. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at May 18, 2010 11:54 AM

#318. Posted by: welh

I haven't thought about the characters not being who they are for a long time. I used to think that. The game play fits in though but I am not sure what kind of a game it would be. More like an experiment to see who wins and the winner gets to save man or destroy him..

If MIb and Jacob were using human consciousness as pawns in a game....that's hard to accept but it could be. I used to think that after Faraday and Desmond mind traveled.

Except I am leaning toward the theory that MIB is dead, his skeleton in the cave with Fmom. And the smoke monster is an entirely different entity. An "IT" as someone said. I think more like a machine. More like a robot who develops Ai as it goes along amassing human consciousness from the evil doers bent on "taking" or using the Glowy thing in the cave. The smoke monster would be a security system to keep man from using this "Knowledge" for ill gotten gains.

And as is gathers info, decides that mankind is not worth saving, that man will destroy himself and life on earth or in the universe by using the EM of the cave to travel in time and totally screw things up, from paradoxes to creating splinter time lines.

Why Jacob thinks differently, I DK.

How the EM works to make time travel possible, I DK.

But Remember when Biff from BTTF went back in time and used the sports magazine to bet on the winning team and become super rich and make life super bad in their town? Same thing going on with Widmore/ Paik/ Dharma/ Hanso and who knows who else? All the men of SCIENCE. They want to misuse the Glowy power thing that we don't understand. Jacob and the other guardians want to protect it and maybe the idea is that they do it without really knowing why. The idea is they are men of FAITH.

If the shows goes along these lines, I could be a happy camper. I am not giving up on them yet. I think there is enough loose clues and innuendos and indications that could still make a good ending for this story.

Do the people that still do not like this episode, and are disappointed in where they think the plot is going; think that ramblings like this would be a bad ending?

I can understand that some people would not like the epi, but why are they condemning the show now? Let's wait until next Monday.I may agree with you then, But I still have enough loose threads to weave a good plot.
--------------------------

#330. Posted by: deb
Yes, sounds like what I just said. I could accept these answers.

---------------------------
#348. Posted by: Mizzed
4. MIB/Smokey's loophole plot- Smokey scans Locke the first time he enters the jungle, an experience Locke describes as "I looked into the eye of the island, and what I saw was beautiful". The "island" will then lead Locke to discover both the hatch and the Beechcraft (site of the Pearl), although Walt will warn him against this path.

Very good points, Mizzed! And I forgot about the one I copied here. This is a great connection. I used to wonder why Locke was led to find the Hatch and then the beechcraft too. Those dreams of his.

------------------------
#381. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Call me fickle but I like that theory too. Even though I have long been against Aliens as an answer.Somehow Aliens who have been there so long they almost forget they are aliens is a lot like My family always being - flatlanders from Philly - here the northern tier of Pa where every local is a ridgerunner. After 25 years We consider ourselves Ridgerunners but the locals don't. I don't think this has much to do with your theory actually. But it is true.

#384. Posted by: berkyo at May 18, 2010 12:09 PM

I wonder if we'll see young Walt in the Alt?
Of course not, he grew, but that's not his fault.

If you miss him, don't fret, I'll draw you a picture.
Just go to Netflix and rent Antwone Fisher.

And what of Rousseau, in the ALT is she crazy?
Or just trying to channel Martin Scorsese?

Does Horace get a nice home to live with the missus?
Or does his nose bleed again as he reminisces?

I'm glad we saw Patchy, though he's not such a nice guy.
But why does the poor man keep losing his right eye?

And finally James and Juliet, I don't ask for much.
But please show them out drinking coffee going Dutch.

#385. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 18, 2010 12:16 PM

Hmm, remember when Jack went to visit Dentist Bernard, trying to find Anthony Cooper?

Remember how we all thought it seemed like Bernard KNEW something, but wasn't saying anything?

Well, wouldn't it make sense that he KNEW? If finding your true love "opens your eyes" (ala Hurley and Libby), and Rose and Bernard are true loves, and were always together, then perhaps they both are aware?

#386. Posted by: BostonSteve at May 18, 2010 12:58 PM

@386/Boston Steve:

I always thought knowledge was power in the series.

If you go back to the beginning after the crash when Jack goes to sit with Rose, I felt she KNEW where she was: her cancer was gone, and she knew Bernard was okay. How could she know that? I thought that because she accepted that she had died. The other characters were unaware of their own plight or failed to accept it.

Afterward, we were shown that the island has great healing powers (possibility to heal Locke and cure Rose's cancer), but it is still unclear why the island could heal Rose's cancer but not spider bites, falls, or gunshot wounds.

#387. Posted by: welh at May 18, 2010 1:20 PM

I think there is and has been only one Smokey. Well, at least since MIB. The light is creation, life, death, rebirth, etc. Every human being has a tiny piece of that light in them. When a human comes into direct contact with the light, he is stripped of his physical form. His mind/soul/essence is transformed. He is filled with divine energy and power. He becomes a whole new, God like entity. That's why humans aren't meant to know about it. Who could resist divine powers?
MIB's human flaws however, and some of his human desires remain. MIB still wants to leave the Island. But he has a large chunk of the light in him. If that light moves further away from the original source, all of our lights could go out. That's why Jacob, guardian of the light has to keep him on the Island. In fact, he should kill him. But he can't or won't, because of the rules, or Mom's magic. The candidate is not only meant to become the new guardian. He must defeat and destroy MIB. The only way to do this, is to become a Smokey himself. A 'good' Smokey, so to speak, who will guard the light forever. Jack is supposed to sacrifice himself to do this.


Hm, riddle me this. If the light is destroyed, we're all goners according to Mother, right? So what about the ALT with the sunken Island? The people seem to be fine there.

#388. Posted by: Mischa at May 18, 2010 1:40 PM

@388. Posted by: Mischa

So what you're saying is Ben and Locke are both godlike now that were exposed to this light effect after turning the FDW?

#389. Posted by: Revelation at May 18, 2010 1:55 PM

Since we are in final descent for our favorite show, and it has a vague connection to this episode's introduction of the LIGHT source, I went back and found my craziest, off-the-wall, Easter Egg hunter theory:

When watching the episode where Jack is the school janitor and he is cleaning the school room , I observed there was something odd to the right of the blackboard. On further investigation, it was a chart of the Periodic Elements. However, there was one of the elements blocked in red on the chart, like an island. So, I squinted and counted the rows and columns over to find it was the 4th row, 8th element in . . . oh, those pesky Numbers. So the highlighted element could not be a shear coincidence, right?

Well, it turns out that it is element 26, Fe (Iron), the most common ferromagnetic material. It is also an early reference to Mars, the red planet. And what is the symbol for Mars? It is the MALE FERTILITY symbol.

So I decided to run The Numbers through the Periodic Chart:

4: Be (Beryllium) is a rare element caused from the Big Bang (CREATION). It is used as a hardening element in alloys, and radiation filter (but it is highly toxic).

8: O (Oxygen) means SHARP. It is used to smelt iron ore to purify it. It is a basic foundation for organic LIFE in photosynthesis and respiration.

15: P (Phosphorus) means LIGHT BEARER. It is never found as a free element in nature, but it is an essential element for living cells.

16: S (Sulfur) is a pure element in nature and essential to life. It is associated with BRIMSTONE and HELL.

23: V (Vanadium) is named for the norse goddess of beauty and FEMALE FERTILITY.
It is a natural element which is part of steel smelter slag in the production of alloys. It is also a catalyst to produce sulfuric acid. And some life forms use it as the center for enzyme production.

42: Mo (Molybdenum) is from the Greek word LEAD. It has a high melting point and is used in high strength steel alloys. It is not a free element found in nature but is found in oxidized minerals. There is a theory that Mo in minerals in early oceans allowed free oxygen to be used by early life forms as a catalyst which allowed more complex organisms to evolve (EVOLUTION). There are more than 20 Mo-based enzymes in animals and higher organisms.

So, at the time, I speculated whether The Numbers could be the following formula to explain the show:

MALE FERTILITY + CREATION + LIFE + LIGHT BEARER + HELL + FEMALE FERTILITY + EVOLUTION = LOST.


>>> Now with CrazyMom's comment that the light is "life, death, rebirth," maybe the stated Period Elements are the properties of an alien being, Mother Earth.

#390. Posted by: welh at May 18, 2010 2:11 PM

@388: Mischa - I don't think MIB cannot leave because he has too much "light" in him. He was not allowed to leave way before he turned into the smoke monster. In fact, his "mother" knocked him out and destroyed the well that was dug specifically to keep him from leaving. Furthermore, while I think MIB as smokey gained new powers I do not think he as a person really has changed much since before he died. More evil, maybe, less concerned about killing, certainly, but that can also be attributed to the fact that he's been kept a prisoner for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years.

Regarding us all being goners if the light goes out, and the fact that the island is sunken under water in the Alt-timeline, I believe this all ties back to what I was saying in my previous posts this week about how everybody lies, even to us the viewers, and more importantly, that the lies may not stop at Jacob/MIB's level, but to whomever/whatever they get their information from - perhaps The Island itself.

@381: Cecil Rose - Fantastic theory! I'm rooting for an ending in the vein of your proposed storyline.

To all, here's another subject I haven't really found a good explanation for as of yet. Why the compulsion by the guardians to keep bringing people to The Island? Jacob's original motivation seemed to be to try to bring about change the nature of a human enough to achieve some outcome that would bring about an ending of sorts. "It only ends once. Everything before that is just progress" But later it seems his goal was to find a replacement for himself. I don't know if his goal changed or not, to be quite honest. His and MIB's "mother" did the same thing, bringing individuals to The Island, first to find a replacement from what we could tell. But did she continue bringing people to The Island? And if so, what was her motivation? If anything, one would think she didn't want anyone else there at all besides her and her "kids". The implication we got is that people have always been coming (or actually, brought) to the island by the assigned guardian's action(s) causing them to arrive there. Has it always been solely to bring candidates there or is there more to it?

#391. Posted by: LostedIt at May 18, 2010 2:18 PM

#389. Posted by: Revelation:

Actually, that's not what I'm saying at all. With direct contact, I mean being inside the light, being engulfed by it, like MIB was. Ben and Locke were just close to it.

#392. Posted by: Mischa at May 18, 2010 2:21 PM

Oh, one more thing about people being brought to the island. If the guardians are supposed to be guarding the light from humans ever getting it, and if they have such immense powers as to be able to do things like kill everyone in a village and cover up a big well, why would they ever leave *anyone* alive on The Island that wasn't considered a candidate? Why not just wipe them out? What kind of guardian allows them to stay on The Island to do who knows what and doesn't really keep track of them? It would seem that everything that has gone wrong on The Island has been done at the hand of those left on The Island that weren't candidates. Kill off anyone that isn't a candidate (or loses candidacy) and The Island remains safe pretty much forever unless a candidate could actually wreak such havoc and would take it upon themselves to do so. Logical, no? Brutal, yes, but makes sense.

#393. Posted by: LostedIt at May 18, 2010 2:28 PM

@#391. Posted by: LostedIt

Maybe she said MIB could never leave because at that time, she thought he was to be the new guardian, not because it would be doom for the world or anything like that, if he did leave.
Her main objective was to protect the light from other humans. She destroyed the well and the people to prevent the light from being discovered, not only to stop MIB from leaving. Just don't know how she did it.
Also, I didn't say that his personality changed. He still has the same flaws (character traits) and desires.

#394. Posted by: Mischa at May 18, 2010 2:32 PM

The way I see it the MIB was always supposed to be the protector. He was the one chosen by Fmom--not Jacob. When MIB insisted he wanted to leave the island, Fmom told Jacob that he was the protector. Inreality, Jocob is merely there to ensure MIB does not leave the island thus leaving the light unprotected. If the light is unprotected is when all humanity is at risk.
I doubt it can get much more complicated than that in the remaining time and it leaves the machinations of how/why people and objects have these mysterious powers relatively open as well as many of the inconsistencies in how these powers are manifested. Since Fmom likley did not know the full truth, the oldest people on the island, Jacob and MIB(who learned from her), don't know the whole truth either. Therefore we have no way of ever learning the full truth.

#395. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at May 18, 2010 2:38 PM

@76 Harley R, Pageot
@186 berkyo
@200-223 Fellow Traveler, mizzed, Revelation
@388 Mischa
Probably others, too!

Glad to hear the discussion around Smokey this week-it has been all too often misinterpreted, IMO. Smokey is, was and maybe always will be. As Harley pointed out @76 it's in the petroglyphs under the Temple. I'm all in with what mizzed said @203 - many of us confuse the primordial force we call Smokey with the human that was Jacob's brother. Or with the 815'er John Locke. Earlier this year I compared Smokey to a Great White Shark, a killing machine defending "the light." Revelation likens Smokey to pennicillin @207-it eradicates any disease that infects the island. It is a security system, as Robert, then Danielle Rousseau asserted. Like Cerberus, the three-headed hound of Hades of Mythology, it both keeps those who would take "the light" out and keeps those who must remain on the island in. It is parasitic, assuming the bodily form, memories and desires of the dead as it sees fit - whatever protects "the light."

@115 TS - Very interesting & relevant-shows you can find easter eggs anywhere, even in a sememingly innocuous Top 40 song.

@144 DocH - Sharp and accurate comparison of "Across The Sea" with football's two minute warning.

@179 shikotee - I don't think the players have given up; they're still dressed out in pads on the sidelines waiting to say, "Put me in NOW, coach!"

@248 DocH - Thanks for the haiku, been missing them!
Your mention of the Smothers Brothers "Mom always liked you best" may have clued us in on Brother's name:
How about DICKIE!

@276 shikotee - "the problem isn't the show - the problem is your unrealistic expectations" Certainly applicable to many of us!

@337 tweedle_dee - You finally brought up what's crossed my mind more and more as the Lost endgame plays out: "Please don't let this end like Twin Peaks!"

abc/com has a great Timeline Orientation link on their LOST site which scrolls through many episodes in chronological order with pictures & short video clips (Smokey kills Eko-yay!) Click on the beach cast pic with "The Timeline" caption.

#396. Posted by: robinpiney at May 18, 2010 3:08 PM

#385. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 18, 2010 12:16 PM


LOL! Clever, funny and at the same time, sweet and poignant.

#397. Posted by: sandivon at May 18, 2010 3:42 PM

#390. welh

I am jealous of the time you have and admire the depth of your analysis. Thank you for sharing.

#398. Posted by: MySoulmateDigsLost at May 18, 2010 3:43 PM

@378 BostonSteve
What if the island is the sideways universe?

I think that makes sense to me, but I'm not sure how to incorporate the off-island trips by Ben, Locke and the Oceanic 6 into this theory, unless their off-island experiences are part of the "wrong" sideways universe.

Every time I play around with a different idea about the alt world I get jammed up with time travel paradoxi. Here are a few recent thoughts I've had and how they don't seem to pan out:

Were the past 6 seasons merely a wrinkle in time and the alt world occurs after the regular timeline? That could explain the dormant memories Desmond has been reawakening but it doesn't explain the pre-2004 timeline differences.

Any chance the Losties foomed backwards in time when they first landed on the island? Perhaps to a time before Rose had cancer and Locke was paralyzed? In other words, the island didn't heal them but instead they were foomed back to a time prior to their conditions? Sounded good to me on paper for a bit, but then I couldn't reconcile how we could see the Sox winning the Series not long after they landed on the island, which would indicate that they were in the right year at that point. Unless the purple sky incident caused a time change.

Welh asked recently how the the sideways characters could pull memories from the island if the island world is in 2007 but the alt world is back in 2004. Is it possible we're seeing a parallel to what occurred in the Constant, by which their experiences in 2007 are popping back into their 2004 consciousnesses (and vice versa)? That doesn't seem inconsistent with BostonSteve's theory.

Wonder if there's a connection with the Frozen Donkey Wheel, because when Locke landed in Tunisia, it was three years after he turned the wheel.

#399. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 18, 2010 3:58 PM

NY Times interview with Darlton (spoiler-free):

tinyurl.com/26vfd85

#400. Posted by: Clementine at May 18, 2010 4:07 PM

CIF + one

IITY?

Ii! Ii!

#401. Posted by: Clementine at May 18, 2010 4:09 PM

Oh, no. I just realized... that was my last "IITY?"

Where's MIF these days? Can MIF be first on Facebook? I don't like change.

#402. Posted by: Clementine at May 18, 2010 4:15 PM

#398 said it best to #390. WELH, your posts are always worth reading.

FYI (and not spoilerish IMO), the May 24 issue of TIME has a great article, "Life after LOST". Interesting to see what question Darlton says WILL be answered. (I know, I know...if we can believe them!)

Also, the June issue of Golf Digest features a Q&A with Terry O'Quinn.

The countdown has started. :-(

#403. Posted by: lovelost at May 18, 2010 4:25 PM

Perhaps the sunken island in the ALT timeline is really just a metaphor. The Island is not really physically underwater. Rather, the Island = consciousness. So, the underwater island does not really represent the island being submerged in water...the sunken island merely reflects the present state of consciousness of the characters' awareness of the island.

In other words, in the beginning of this Season, when we see the island underwater, it means that their knowledge of the Island and what happened there, consciousness and recollection of the Island experience are submerged deep in their memories. What we have been viewing the entire Season 6 is the "awakening" of their consciousness. Desmond is pivotal in this awakening, because he has experienced it firsthand and completely already. Desmond's role in the ALT world-- he must ignite the memories of what happened for each character. The link to this is through the emotional ties and Love that the characters experienced on the Island.

Somehow, this overall Love, recognition and rememberance is the key to the season, and perhaps the series. "It only ends once." Looking in the mirror-- and recognizing what happened, is the way to overcome it and merge the two timelines. Something really important.

#404. Posted by: deb at May 18, 2010 7:22 PM

@378, 399 I agree.

I posted a similar theory on the Everybody Loves Hugo thread #331. Posted by: Revelation at April 20, 2010 3:16 PM OK.
Now my head is really going to explode!!! This thought just occured to me:

MIB is trying to get home. Maybe His home is on another timeline. The MIB timeline was altered way in the past, and the timeline we have seen leading up to flight 815 crashing, and desmond using the failsafe, is not the real timeline. The pre-815 lives our Losties know as reality, is actually the result of the original alteration back in MIB’s day. By going home, MIB sets the time line straight, and the alt reality we see for our Losties is actually the intended reality. Everything we have seen in the sideways world is the true timeline, and everything pre flight 815 was the alternate universe created back in MIB’s time.

Alt world is real timeline.

#405. Posted by: Revelation at May 18, 2010 7:47 PM

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#406. Posted by: Pharmb621 at June 1, 2010 3:53 AM