It's hard to argue with the monomyth theory, and it clear that the "stages" of journey appear in most every story ever told. However, therein lies its weakness (IMO). It is SO generic to human experience in general, as to be almost impossible to deny in any tale worth telling. Even in stories not worth telling ... "Seinfeld" episodes, always ostensibly about "nothing," often hold "true" to the monomyth model.

Why is this? I hold that the basic model, as you summarized (and I quoted above), underlies everyone's experiences to varying degrees (save perhaps, Paris Hilton ... and I suppose you could even argue for her). This is why it is the basis of most stories ... everyone can identify at some level. Anyone who has "survived" beyond a certain age has, by default, gone through most of the defined stages. Especially in the ancient world, where death loomed at nearly every stage of life, getting "to the end" by living to relatively old age, would have been seen as a "heroic" model for all to aspire to.

This premise also lies behind the prevalence of "trials by ordeal" throughout societal history ... those who die, must not have found redemption ... otherwise, they would have persevered, right? This idea is not alien to modern Western thought either, lest you think it is a vestige of primitive days gone by ... one need only look to Tom Wolfe's "The Right Stuff" for confirmation (or more recent comments by Wesley Clark regarding McCain's being shot down). For that matter, consider the common disdain shown for the homeless, justifiable or not (these people must have somehow failed to "find redemption," or they wouldn't be in such a predicament, right?).

Not arguing against your idea, just pointing out that there needn't be a metaphysical basis for it. Of course, looking for reason in the vagaries of existence, most peoples have eventually come to the conclusion that there MUST be an "unexplainable," yet somehow justified, rationale behind all of this. Hence the origin of mythology, and from an atheistic perspective, religion.

Yet from an agnostic perspective, this doesn't mean such beliefs are wrong ... if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it doesn't prove it's a duck, but doesn't disprove it either. There are certainly some sound scientific reasons behind beliefs that the universe obeys some level of "divine intervention," if not necessarily to the level of trial by fire (see Paul Davies "The Mind of God" for an intelligent perspective). Most unfortunately, such ideas have been bastardized to justify "Intelligent Design" arguments for presenting Biblical creation as a legitimate alternative to evolution (when in fact, serious theorists posit that evolution may be "driven" by "design" ... yet none of these people are out there suggesting the world was created 6k years ago, and that dinosaur bones were planted to "test faith" ... such ridiculous notions have dealt a severe blow to true scientists with good ideas, most of which have now [due to reverse-prejudice from the "scientific community" unwilling to associate itself in any way with such ideas ... and thereby undermining the basis of the scientific process itself as an unfortunate result] been disregarded off-hand as "crackpot" ideas ... yet the sun being the center of the solar system was once a crackpot idea ...).

Anyway ... trying to come full circle here, by asking this question ... is the island supposed to be the true "Mind of God," or a manifestation of such? I will pose this in terms of your own mentioning of "Christ" as a monomyth model. I have always found it interesting that Jesus referred to himself as the "Son of Man," rather than the Son of God (too many NT Biblical refs to mention). I have an interpretation of this, which hopefully will not anger the Christians out there, and I think should not ... from a historical perspective, at that time especially, being a "son" would be tantamount to being a servant of one's father, in all respects. By calling himself the "Son of Man," I (JMO) think Jesus saw himself as a servant to humanity, and by extension, to God. When one references Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, or Siddhārtha, et al, regardless of religious belief, the common thread (without having to rely on the monomyth model) is that they saw themselves as servants of mankind. I will take the possibly blasphemous step here to say they were all possibly manifestations of God's consciousness, rather than truly BEING "the Mind of God." I would suggest that D&C are introducing "the island" as yet one more "manifestation" of God's consciousness, rather than "The" thing itself, if that makes any sense.

With these exceptions, Mizzed, I find your theory quite excellent ...

I have always said I would NOT like a Non scientific explanation for the series. I would call "God's Mind" a cop out. BUT After reading what you have put together, I see that you don't necessarily mean "God". Put "The Universe" in there and I think I can go along with your theory. And by the universe I think I mean the cosmos, some kind of meaning to everything and not just chaos.

But not a fatherly being watching every sparrow smashing into the grill work on a 16 wheeler. Just some sense of understanding or a hope of being able to understand what the hell life is all about.

I have read the history of various religions and most do have the same basic ideas. I have always thought that it is because we - people - are basically the same and want to know why it rains sometimes and not others. Because the gods are angry or because of the jet stream? The Natural religions who revere the rain for what it is and does make more sense to me.

So I could go with Locke being the natural spiritualist and Eko the one who brings a calf to be slaughtered for the fall harvest.

Oh Crap. See? I have lost myself.

Why would the true natural/ancient religion/faith have smited Eko? Eko wasn't religious like a good Catholic should be. He loved his brother and did what he had to do often using wrong to make right. When he landed on the island, I think he thought he had found HIS religion. One that is not ruled by a "judging" deity. One that offered redemption for him. But then it turned around and wacked him.

If I could reconcile Eko and the island's ill use of him, I would back your theory 100%. Maybe the Cerebus is NOT run by Mother Abigail but by the man in Vegas?

Anyway, I truly admire your skills in putting this together. Thanks!!!

Yes, I do not agree that the island itself is a "thinking" consciousness.

The original animal that first saw himself as a thinking being (I don't think my dog does......so I see myself as different - not better) tried to sort out good and evil. And maybe even gave them their names because of a kind of intuitive survival of the fittest. Why do we die? What is lightening? Fear of the dark.

If the hunters fight amongst themselves then the hunt suffers and the children go hungry and people die. So that was an evil thing. To be overly aggressive and argumentative and not work for the group was evil.The group suffered. And it made sense. For the group to survive they needed some structure, some laws. The Island may be a pure version of these laws to live by.

The smarter ones in the group saw this and tried to find ways to reason with their group. They became the priest with powers to talk to the gods to grant a bountiful hunt. And of course being human they misused the powers that they had and wielded them to their own purposes. Wealth and Power over others. This may the threat to the Island.

I think this kind of spiritualism or would be acceptable to me. Not a thinking land mass. Although I do like the Gaia stories and would like of think of the earth as a living being that can heal itself after we ruin it.

Your premise goes to the heart of game theory ... suppose there are two people, and they have the option of cooperating, or screwing the other person over for their own benefit. If they both cooperate, their joint benefit is meager, but still positive. If one decides to screw over the other, cooperative partner, then the "loser" suffers, but the "screwer" benefits greatly. If they both decide to screw the other person, they both lose, big time.

Let's hypothetically call these "type A" and "type B" people, where type A people will screw over their partner, and type B will cooperate. In a world full of only type A people, society will crumble very quickly, and extinction will soon result. In a society full of only type B people, advancement will come very slowly, and the society stands vulnerable to potential extinction from swift environmental changes, and lack of a "survival first" response.

As odd as it may seem, the "best" result is achieved with a certain proportion of both type A and B people in the mix (much more B than A). One could argue this is the "mathematical" end-game of natural selection, and it is a purely logical function of evolution that a certain percentage of humanity should be a$$holes, essentially supported by the cooperative types, but essential to advancement and adaptability.

One could also argue that the "game theory" analyses are all inherently unstable, and introduction of mix of "type A" and "type B" people will inevitably lead to bifurcation states of all A or all B ... yet the world persists ... for now ...

How is the "unstable balance" of takers/doers maintained? Is it? This now becomes the realm of very abstract theory ... or theology ...

→ 7. ealgumby wrote "It's hard to argue with the monomyth theory..However.., It is SO generic to human experience in general, as to be almost impossible to deny in any tale worth telling".

I agree that versions of the monomyth are everywhere, but the reason why shows like Seinfeld don't fit the bill is the notion of sacrifice. The monomyth requires the hero to face his/her doubts, go through an intitiation, gain new insight- but then must be willing to sacrifice themselves (and their new powers) to defeat overwhelming evil. In our society which is often based on immediate, personal gratification, I would argue that self-sacrifice is missing from most current stories.

ealgumby wrote "just pointing out that there needn't be a metaphysical basis for it", and berkyo seconded "Yes, I do not agree that the island itself is a "thinking" consciousness."

It took me a while to come around to this as well, but what other theory (in the context of Lost) fits? You could make the argument for some sort of supernatural presence that controls the island, but then you've got to explain how events are controlled off-island as well. What rational explanation can prevent any pen from working at the Sydney adoption agency? The trump card in this debate is the "numbers"- it becomes virtually impossible to come up with a non-supernatural explanation for their continual presence.

ealgumby asked "is the island supposed to be the true "Mind of God," or a manifestation of such?"

Again, only in the context of the show, I'm not sure it matters.

→ 10. berkyo: "If I could reconcile Eko and the island's ill use of him, I would back your theory 100%"

The island (via the Smoke Monster as Yemi) offered Eko a chance for redemption- he rejected it.

EKO: Yemi! You say you want to hear my confession! Why? Why now, eh? Show yourself! Where are you! Where!

[Yemi appears across from Eko in a field of waist-high plants with red flowers. Eko walks over to him.]

YEMI: Are you ready, Eko?

EKO: Yes. I am ready, Yemi.

[Eko pulls out the cross and raises it. Yemi reaches out to caress it but does not take it.]

EKO: I ask for no forgiveness, Father. For I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive.

It is after this exchange that Eko is killed. He is given an opportunity to ask for forgiveness and redemption, but he does not take it. He falls back on his religious faith, but the "island" rejects it. His final words "You're next" suggest that all of the Losties will face their own moment of judgment.

Again, to argue against a spiritual basis for this show, there would need to be a plausible explanation that otherwise explains this persistent theme of judgment and redemption- especially when D&C frequently refer to the core of the show as a spiritual quest across those very same issues.

>EKO: I ask for no forgiveness, Father. For I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive.

>It is after this exchange that Eko is killed. He is given an opportunity to ask for forgiveness and redemption, but he does not take it. He falls back on his religious faith, but the "island" rejects it. His final words "You're next" suggest that all of the Losties will face their own moment of judgment.

From a Christian standpoint, I'd say Eko did not 'fall back on his Christian faith' but rather that he denied it. Christians recognize that we are all sinners, and 'doing what I had to do' is no excuse. We need God's forgiveness.

This is what disappointed me about this episode. Eko had been portrayed as am unrightious man with one redeeming quality - his love for his brother. He first masqueraded as a priest for sinful reasons (smuggling opium out of the country). Yet after his brother's death he continued the charade and the charade became reality. He really seem to have acquired the faith and humility that he at first only role-played for his own ends.

That's why his rejection at the last moments of his life of all he seemed to have acquired spiritually struck me with such a false note. If it wasn't just bad writing it really makes for as curious point - smokey as avenging angel?

As for Eko's last words, if they were really "you're next" (Locke paraphrased "He said 'we're next'") then they suffer from the ambiguity of the English language - second person being the same in singular and plural forms. So it could have meant "You (John Locke) are next, or "You (all the losties) are next."

The character of Eko was to play a larger role in the series, but things did not work out with Adewale. I agree the way they killed him off was very curious-

"Mr. Eko's demise was very much wrapped up in his sense of spirituality which was very informed by his Catholicism."

I don't know how else to interpret this other than to suggest that "faith" on the island is drawn from something more ancient, almost pagan- note also the four-toed statue, the ruins where Cooper was tied up, the reference to "The Temple", the hieroglyphics, etc.

A couple of other nuggets if anyone wants to comment:

1. Why Jacob? They could have selected any biblical reference to be the key spiritual presence on the island. Other than "seeing the face of God", Jacob is the father of the 12 tribes of Israel- he is the allegorical parent of "God's Chosen" people.

This seems consistent with the concept of Jacob's list, the judgmental aspect of the Smoke Monster, and D&C's implication that The Others are a collection over time of many different people who have been "chosen" to join the group based on their relationship with the island.

2. Hurley and the Numbers- When Hurley uses the numbers to win the lottery, he is told he has opened Pandora's Box. He has used a spiritual message to gain material wealth- therefore, the money is cursed and cannot be happily used. His being "chased" by the numbers suggest guilt and goes back to the concept of redemption.

BTW, while I'm peddling the Spiritual soap here with Lost, that does not reflect my own personal beliefs- just my interpretation of a tv show.

[wavy lines wiggle at the edge of Vincent's vision].

Stuck in the cargo-hold for 14 hours. High on tranqs. Turbulence. Vincent imagines the flight going down. Imagines himself on the island with all of the humans he saw in line during check-in. Plenty of rabbits to chase here on the island. Running out of rabbits to chase. Start duplicating them and numbering them. Not enough of a challenge? Imagine wild boar to do battle with. Still not enough of a challenge? Imagine bears to fend-off and protect the humans from. Hunting is no fun alone. Imagine taking a human along. Hey, how about that guy in the wheelchair? I bet he'd appreciate getting out of that thing to go hunting. Oh, and that heavy-set guy, he is my new best friend because if he has food, then I know I am always going to have something to eat. I'll hang out with that tall, young blonde gal too. Her nails are perfect, so she will always scratch me just right... smells nice too. Vincent dreams on....

[wavy lines wiggling at the edge of Vincent's view cease].

Vincent awakens in LAX baggage pick-up.

End Series.

FilmFodderers have collective heart attacks realizing accuracy of July 2008 prophecy.

ealgumby, your "type A's" are easy to spot... they all own Hummers.

now, ANON2, i assume (and dearly hope) that that was a joke. i think i would cry for weeks if Lost ended that way.

oh, Cecil - i thought of you when i heard about this new saying. i remember your in detail explanation of "jumping the shark"... well, now you may refer to it as "nuking the fridge", thanks to the latest Indiana Jones adventure. :)

Aren't you supposed to be turning a donkey wheel, somewhere?

Y'all are great. Wishing everyone a safe and happy 4th...

[glad the Wayne's World reference was detected].

I forgot the best part. Final scene: Close-up on Vincent's eye - it opens. He starts howling to the poodle in the next pet carrier... "arr-rhoo, ruff, ruff, uhhh, uhhh, uhhh... rut-row, grrrrr." Translation - "We have to go back Fifi!"

I think it was the reason religion was invented. to keep the type A's in check. And that might have been a good idea! On paper. Unfortunately, the type A's soon learned to work the system and began to dole out the opiate to the masses and screw them over anyway.

Sorry if I have offended anyone. These are just my humble but annoying ex socialized religious beliefs. I don't have the right to tell anyone NOT to believe what they want and would never do so. But the theory here got me going on Why the basic good/evil had to be based in a knowing God type island. Why not just the basic if we don't live together we die alone. So I guess I would side with jack and be miserable back in the real world. Would I be trying to return? I don't know.

But why does it have to the mind of God running the numbers? I love the numbers. I agree that there are unexplained things happening. I would not suppose it to be God. Maybe there is some mysterious power – in the island itself – the rock- the whatever. It is healthier to live where I live than in LA. Does my small town have healing properties? And there are remote thingees that can do all kinds of tricks from far away. Science is awesome enough for me. I don't understand string theory or chaos theory but I have read about them and awestruck at the intricate workings of the universe and our ability to try to understand it. Who knows why some people can feel impending disaster. ESP? Could one with EEEESp control happenings at great distances? Could some places in the earth be more conducive to ESP than others?
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“Again, to argue against a spiritual basis for this show, there would need to be a plausible explanation that otherwise explains this persistent theme of judgment and redemption- especially when D&C frequently refer to the core of the show as a spiritual quest across those very same issues.”
But I don't think spiritual needs to involve a judging God. I just took my dog for a walk in the woods to a nearby hilltop corn field where I can see for miles. I feel totally connected with a spiritual presence. I don't believe that it is God.
But judging someone like Eko – who I considered a good human, was the work of a Nasty, Self Righteous God. Or the type A personalities screwing with the power of the island. In my opinion. I can go along with your theory if the smoke monster is a creation of the Dharma (I always thought the Pentagon had a hand in the DI agenda- maybe it's the ultimate smart weapon) and has been Altered by the powers embedded in the island. And is now controlled by the type A personalities using the island for ill.
Maybe what I am saying is I do like your theory as it explains an awful lot, but I will not be happy with the vengeful Judeo/Christain God living on the island and controlling things at the bottom of the mystery. Or any God.

And I wish I could express myself as well as you have done.

All done spinning the frozen wheel. Pat and Vanna said it was too cold in there. Ben won 20K island dollars in the bonus round, a trip to Tunisia, and a new VW van.

LOL!

Well, it's definitely not the Judeo-Christian God. The point in Lost is that the true nature of the universe can not be defined by any one religion or belief system.

While they will no doubt explain Jacob, Widmore, Dharma, etc, in the last two seasons, they may never actually define (i.e. demystify) the island, the numbers, Smokey, etc. I don't picture a Joan of Arcadia scenario where the supernatural presence ever explains itself or its motivations.

I picture the Lost universe as one where the concepts of theoretical physics are true- space-time is not just a theory, but actually how the universe works, allowing for wormholes, consciousness jumping in time, etc.

However, there is also (in Lost) an active "awareness" beyond our conscious reality- whether you want to call that awareness God (or in a polytheistic view, "gods"), the Universe, the Force, Cosmic Consciousness, whatever.

In other words, this is the Theory of Everything, Lost style- where science and faith ultimately become the same thing. In my more obsessive moments, I have wondered if the common abbreviation for the Theory of Everything (TOE) is somehow linked to the four-toed statue, as a sort of easter egg by TPTB for their overall conception of the story.

I can agree with that.
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"there is also (in Lost) an active "awareness" beyond our conscious reality- whether you want to call that awareness God (or in a polytheistic view, "gods"), the Universe, the Force, Cosmic Consciousness, whatever.

I can agree with this too.
----------------------------

Please accept my apology to any here who are believers in whatever religion. I tend to be a bit too judgmental.
I have family and friends who are good Christians and Jews. I admire their ability to trust and believe.

"Hey, how about that guy in the wheelchair? I bet he'd appreciate getting out of that thing to go hunting."

i nearly wet myself.

Fortunately (thank God), I am completely free of this heinous character flaw ... ;)

Hmm ... what of Bunny #15? We know Bunny #15 caused chaos to ensue in the Orchid station ... what precipitated this turn of events? Why was Bunny #15 sent back in time (I assume, as if sent forward the film crew would've known beforehand there might be a conflict ... right?)? Could this have been an accident, perhaps induced by the Dharma gassing, or intentional? I started this post completely tongue in cheek, but the more I think about it, the more I see some plot-point signficance ... we have been promised an "explanation" of the Bunny #15 incident. Have we already gotten it, or is there more? If we "have" (ostensibly via the vid Locke started viewing in the bowels of the Orchid) then I am disappointed ... I wanna know how Bunny #15 fits into the saga. Who sent Bunny #15 back in time, and why?

The Dharma folk don't seem to have recognized the power of the island from what we've seen ... perhaps Bunny #15 was intended as a wake-up call ... or perhaps, Bunny #15 IS, the Mind of God.

Don't lose faith BunnyLover, you may yet be proven precocious in your love of Lepus ...

Couldn't have said it better myself. No really. There's no way. You see, my vocabulary simply isn't as progressed as yours and I really couldn't have said it better.

Rest assured, I will not lose faith. I have a feeling that bunny #15 is actually JACOB... Or, could it have been bunny #8, and because Ben shook it till it "passed out" that's why Ben fell out of grace with Jacob. Hum... that almost makes sense... NOT!
The bunnies will have their revenge!

Watership Down just happens to be one of my most favorite books! (Go figure...) I even named one of my rabbits "Hazel" after one of the main characters. "Safflay anyone?"

Trust you to come up w/a hilariously good pun—thanks for the laugh! : )

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