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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
Majmun
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posted 05-21-2003 08:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scarmouth:
Guys, ZION doesn't have to be in the same place everytime.

If it wasn't then they wouldn't be re-building Zion, they would just be building it.

quote:
Originally posted by slyzer:
The way I see it is holes can be refilled by magma and earthquakes etc. and if there were any holes left then the humans would have blocked them off. But depending on how long it has been, holes in the crust should fill back pretty quick. But dont take my word for it, I'm no geologist

If this were the case, then Zion too would be filled with Magma (says "Magma" with Dr. Evil voice, then sticks pinky in corner of mouth). Especially since Zion is near the Earth's core.

[This message has been edited by Majmun (edited 05-21-2003).]

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no. 47
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posted 05-21-2003 10:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Majmun:
[B] If this were the case, then Zion too would be filled with Magma (says "Magma" with Dr. Evil voice, then sticks pinky in corner of mouth). Especially since Zion is near the Earth's core.

-not if in a simulation

[This message has been edited by no. 47 (edited 05-21-2003).]

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ebronte76
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posted 05-21-2003 10:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebronte76     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by no. 47:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Majmun:
[B] If this were the case, then Zion too would be filled with Magma (says "Magma" with Dr. Evil voice, then sticks pinky in corner of mouth). Especially since Zion is near the Earth's core.

-not if in a simulation

[This message has been edited by no. 47 (edited 05-21-2003).]


On think to think about here guys is that if the machines can tear it down, they can help build it again. And they probably would if they were using to control the 1%.

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no. 47
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posted 05-21-2003 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by McAodh:
The images in the background of Neo with the Architect are all of the possible choices he could make.


For any action there is nth number of reactions (not from the movie - but from quantum mechanics)

You refer to "why" because it is the control.


You could easily predict the choice. He either goes to the door on the left, the door on the right, or he stays in the room.

When you start looking at the "why" you begin to back trace all of the results that led up to it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

for B) then if the images in the background
are all the possible choices Neo can
make then what happens after leaving the door is the nth number of reactions that could possibly happen, then why is the choice of trinty being saved shown?...

for the why/control:
from my interpretation of the movie, the why/control is to maintain/secure a symbiotic relationship between man and machine, then what else would be the purposes of the One, or the Oracle, or the Architect, or the Keymaker or any other program for that matter if they were all possibly made or have a certain dependency with the Source…w/c disturbingly contradicts Neo being a Program since he chooses trinity over the Salvation of Zion on the 6th time.

-Mcaodh had posted a very convincing idea of his on how Neo maybe a program, thus strengthening the theory that Neo can be the same entity at six different time. Check his post...but, my question to him is after downloading all Neo's knowledge, after rebuilding Zion for the nth time, into the main frame resulting into evolution of the Architect again so that he may built a more flawless nth matrix, then why would a program choose trinity over saving Zion on the 6th time if after all he is a program?

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no. 47
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posted 05-21-2003 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ebronte76:
On think to think about here guys is that if the machines can tear it down, they can help build it again. And they probably would if they were using to control the 1%.

-my interpretation of the 1% are NEo and his predecessors since I believe that
the Architect was refering to the those who sought their destiny to be told by the Oracle/human-psyche program. Mathematically it seems plausible since only a handful people could've done so.

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Juzam85
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posted 05-21-2003 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Juzam85     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My first post here, found this board through one of my teachers, you should know who I am if you read this, talk to you every day about the movie =p

Anyway, all of the theories here are great, though they all can't be right =( I doubt we've hit exactly what the brothers plan yet, though we might.I must agree whoever said that we need to look at the philosophy of the movie. Just like Reloaded, we need to ask ourselves why. Why are the brothers choosing certain things? Why are they using the symbols they are? Then we can try to predict what will happen.

One symbol I haven't seen mentioned on this forum is the '101' symbol found in both films. In the original Matrix film 101 was Mr. Anderson's/Neo's apartment number. Later in Reloaded they escape with the key maker on the 101 freeway, later using him to progress to the 101st floor of the building to reach the source. Just an odd coincidence. I can't make much of it myself, other then that 101 is binary for five, and that could imply the fifth version of the matrix or such, though I really don't buy into the MiM theory anymore, it does sound to cliche. Another thing of note was that when the original Matrix started it had all the numbers and code, etc. And the first large number to be displayed was a 5, then another 5, then a 6. Maybe I'm looking to far into this, who knows. Anyone care to venture a guess as to what the brothers are up to with this? Does 101 have any religious symbolism, or is it just a freaky coincidence?

[This message has been edited by Juzam85 (edited 05-21-2003).]

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technocore
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posted 05-21-2003 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for technocore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Guys!

One of the things that bothered me about the Matrix is the idea that humans are plugged into the matrix because the machines need the body heat to power their civilation. If this is true, why not use other mammals that are less intelligent and have zero chance of fighting back?
Another problem with the living power source is that it takes more energy to keep a living thing alive than the energy released as heat and bioelectricty (Laws of Thermodynamics). ( The extra energy that keeps the biosphere working comes from the sun, which the machines no longer have access to.)
So the question is: Is this an oversight on the part of Wachowskis or is there something to it?

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loki
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posted 05-21-2003 11:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by technocore:
Hi Guys!

One of the things that bothered me about the Matrix is the idea that humans are plugged into the matrix because the machines need the body heat to power their civilation. If this is true, why not use other mammals that are less intelligent and have zero chance of fighting back?
Another problem with the living power source is that it takes more energy to keep a living thing alive than the energy released as heat and bioelectricty (Laws of Thermodynamics). ( The extra energy that keeps the biosphere working comes from the sun, which the machines no longer have access to.)
So the question is: Is this an oversight on the part of Wachowskis or is there something to it?


I think this question comes down to "willing suspention of disbelief." THis is the premise that we have to accept. I think if you apply any real science to this it will break down. This we need to accept and then everything else will be based on this. We just accept that they need human energy - humans make better BTU's whatever - I think this is a point that in the end insn't really that interesting.

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neotic
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posted 05-21-2003 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neotic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loki:
I think this question comes down to "willing suspention of disbelief." THis is the premise that we have to accept. I think if you apply any real science to this it will break down. This we need to accept and then everything else will be based on this. We just accept that they need human energy - humans make better BTU's whatever - I think this is a point that in the end insn't really that interesting.

They choose humans because that is the machines master. The very reason the machines can't kill the human species, they were always designed to serve us, so they have to wait for our permission to do so.

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-21-2003 11:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loki:
I think this question comes down to "willing suspention of disbelief." THis is the premise that we have to accept. I think if you apply any real science to this it will break down. This we need to accept and then everything else will be based on this. We just accept that they need human energy - humans make better BTU's whatever - I think this is a point that in the end insn't really that interesting.

Right on. By the way, I have found on the net before that this whole BTU crap is completely fiction and the actual number of BTU's in M1 is ridiculously high. Just accept it as fact in the movie world.

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Juzam85
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posted 05-22-2003 12:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Juzam85     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Something else odd, and subliminal that I noticed this evening. In the Matrix revolutions trailer, right at the end, there is a speeding subway train, if you pause it right as the clip of the train starts you can see it's destination sign. It reads "Loop". Not sure what to make of this either, but for some reason it seems to imply to me that the Matrix is stuck in some sort of loop. Wether that be the MiM theory, or that be the loop with the destruction of Zion I do not know. Just more food for thought. After all, the W. Brothers said they do everything for a reason, and it's that reason that ahs me stumped.

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EBOLA
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posted 05-22-2003 12:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for EBOLA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Juzam85:
My first post here, found this board through one of my teachers, you should know who I am if you read this, talk to you every day about the movie =p

Anyway, all of the theories here are great, though they all can't be right =( I doubt we've hit exactly what the brothers plan yet, though we might.I must agree whoever said that we need to look at the philosophy of the movie. Just like Reloaded, we need to ask ourselves why. Why are the brothers choosing certain things? Why are they using the symbols they are? Then we can try to predict what will happen.

One symbol I haven't seen mentioned on this forum is the '101' symbol found in both films. In the original Matrix film 101 was Mr. Anderson's/Neo's apartment number. Later in Reloaded they escape with the key maker on the 101 freeway, later using him to progress to the 101st floor of the building to reach the source. Just an odd coincidence. I can't make much of it myself, other then that 101 is binary for five, and that could imply the fifth version of the matrix or such, though I really don't buy into the MiM theory anymore, it does sound to cliche. Another thing of note was that when the original Matrix started it had all the numbers and code, etc. And the first large number to be displayed was a 5, then another 5, then a 6. Maybe I'm looking to far into this, who knows. Anyone care to venture a guess as to what the brothers are up to with this? Does 101 have any religious symbolism, or is it just a freaky coincidence?

[This message has been edited by Juzam85 (edited 05-21-2003).]


In one of the animatrix short films the humans exile the machines to do their own thing in a place approximately where Egypt is. They call this city 01. I think this may be the symbolism you were after.

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EBOLA
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posted 05-22-2003 12:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for EBOLA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe there is a matrix within a matrix and that Neo is infact a program.

Matrix in a Matrix (MiM)
* Why in the 1st movie do they let neo slide out of the pod into water where he can easily be picked up. Why don't they put something that minces him up at the end of the tunnel if he is just to be 'liquified' and fed to the living. Unless there is a MiM
* If you watch carefully Neo just hold up his arms and the sentinels just self distruct. As he realises that he is in a second matrix and in a sense the same rules apply.
* In the first movie agent smith says whilst trying to break morpheus that he has to "break free"....hes a machine....he doesn't live in the matrix. Could he be referring to the second matrix.
*Smith tells Neo something like "yet here I am, apparently free, just like you"


Neo is a program
* The architect says he has the code within him that needs to return to the source.
* In the first movie when neo is doing combat training etc Tank says something like hes been going for 30 hours straight..."hes a machine" doesn't seem like much at the time but looking back now there is a lot of subtle references like that in the first movie.
* Neo is in a coma after the EMP with the sentinels, as is agent smith...at they are machines.
* Would explain the powers he has that no one else does.

[This message has been edited by EBOLA (edited 05-22-2003).]

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EBOLA
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posted 05-22-2003 01:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for EBOLA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SCHEME:
WHY, WHY, WHY ???? Why are so many critics/analyzers/fans jumping onto this matrix in a matrix theory? I've never posted here before, but I've seen this movie and have been dying to discuss it. I searched the web for realoded forums, everything I found has this matrix in matrix respone from most people. Before I get into the real debunking, just think about this. The W. brothers came up with one of the best film ideas in a decade, went out of their way to make the movie one that would be anaylized in books, print ande web forums, do you really think they would write something that lame? I don't.
Maybe I'm not being fair since I have the advangtange of seeing the movie 4 times before posting first. I've read alot of posts. Everyone trying to figure out this movie focuses on the Architect and the Orcale, but the speeches by Agent Smith the Marovingian, and the Zion counciler are the ones that really tell you what's going on.

Agent Smith: Suprised to see me?
Neo: No
Agent Smith: Then you're aware of it?
Neo: Of what?
Smith: Our connection. I don't fully understand how it happend, perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied . . .

This line right here explains:
1. Neo's dreams. (His dreams take place in the Matrix, how could he dream them in the real world?)
2. Smith copying himself to Bane and entering the real world.
3. Neo destroying the sentinels, before he destroys them he senses them coming
It's all because of the connection betwenn Neo and Smith. Smith tells Neo something like "yet here I am, apparently free, just like you"
The real thing to figure out in the next movie will be what exactly happened when Smith and Neo killed each other then came back to life.


The couciler talk with Neo about the machines that run Zion. Neo saya the could shut them machine down if they wanted. The couciler says yes but we would have no water or air. At the end Neo says "Machines need us and we need machines"
The couciler tells Neo he dosen't understand how the water purifier works but he understands why it has to work, then he says something like " I don't understand the reason that you can do some of the things that you do, but I hope we can understand the reason before it's too late."
When Neo reaches the source and sees the Architect, he then understands the reason.

Marovingian tells Morpheus "choice is an illusion, created between those with power and those without"

Now, remember that the Machines are AI, but also apparently AE because, Smith, The Marovingian and his Wife all show emotions. They are sentient programs that are no longer part of the system, "unplugged" as Smith says. Free, conscience beings "alive" in the Matrix. The couciler plants the seed in Neo for sympathy toward the machines.

I think the third movie will be about humans and AI's working together to beat "the system" something like a revolution.


The title is Revolutions....implying plural. I believe there is going to be a revolution for both machines and humans....as at the end of the day...no matter how many matrixes there are...there has to be a real world. The whole scene with the councellor and Neo would have been cut if it didn't add this element to the story. I believe revolutions will end with the machines and humans living in symbiosis and it being explained that the matrix is there and it your "CHOICE" if you want to live in it or in the real world.

Additionally I believe that it will be discovered that Neo is infact a program but Trinity is human. I have a feeling that Neo will die in the next movie and not be able to follow Trinity into the real world....either because he is killed or the matrix(s) is turned off and because he is a program he will no longer function.

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J420
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posted 05-22-2003 01:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for J420     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just watched it again, yes it's definately a movie! Has Anyone noticed, or had these questions; In the "real" world, Zion, where did anyone or everyone get these clothes? And how about the wide variety of colors and designs I noticed... do they have a mall somewhere? The leader at one point is shuffling some papers at the desk, in Zion. I thought the sky was black, and they all lived underground... Paper comes from trees right? trees need the light spectrum to produce sugar via the leaves, which feeds the plant to make fiber for growth... or something close to that, right? I suppose when Neo stopped the machines that may imply he is still in a Matrix, where stuff can be manipulated, but suppose even in the most real of realities beings can manipulate their surroundings... in extra-ordinary ways. But now how about the "Highway" scene, anyone catch the makers of the two main cars? The black "Albino Ghost'" car, and the good guys silver ride... Looked like caddys to me... odd that the two vehicles everyone would probably be looking at would be of the same source - Oh my god! Cadillac (sp?) is the "Creator"! Anyway I really hope the next part answers more questions. This one, no matter how much of the great effects, sold out the storyline to over extended fight scenes. BAM - KAPOW - WHAM ... it's almost like watching those old batman t.v. shows...

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tAd
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posted 05-22-2003 02:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tAd     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the W. brothers had us watching, thinking, discussing, sharing, debating and even we would like to watch it again just in case we "missed" somethng trivial...indeed it is a darn SUCCESS!

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koder
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posted 05-22-2003 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for koder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Something else to think about when attempting to decide the Matrix in Matrix thought:

As the agent attacks Morpheus on the semi's roof, he calls him an exile. Additionally, he uses the term for killing him deleting him. Now remember what the Oracle says about renagade programs present in the system-- they're either exiled or deleted. The connection seems apparent; for, if Morpheus is to be deleted, he would essentially have to be a program.

And, it's probably not just a confusion of terminology, for Smith uses "killed" instead of "deleted" when conversing with Neo about the whole joining together/I watched you die conversation.

Just something to think about. I could just be on crack

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mrmup
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posted 05-22-2003 04:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mrmup     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by koder:
Something else to think about when attempting to decide the Matrix in Matrix thought:

As the agent attacks Morpheus on the semi's roof, he calls him an exile. Additionally, he uses the term for killing him deleting him. Now remember what the Oracle says about renagade programs present in the system-- they're either exiled or deleted. The connection seems apparent; for, if Morpheus is to be deleted, he would essentially have to be a program.

And, it's probably not just a confusion of terminology, for Smith uses "killed" instead of "deleted" when conversing with Neo about the whole joining together/I watched you die conversation.

Just something to think about. I could just be on crack



I think they were referring to the keymaker.

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mariosgr12
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posted 05-22-2003 04:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mariosgr12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Insight into the names of the matrix characters (unofficial- this is stuff that I found in the encyclopedia)


Nio(written with an “i” and not an “e”): In Japanese it means “the two kings”. In Japanese Buddhist mythology, he is the protector of the Buddhist faith. He is represented in a dual form , in the left and right side of the main entrance to the Buddhist temple.

PS: THIS DUAL FORM COULD BE THE DUALITY PROGRAM-HUMAN, LIKE THE DUALITY OF CHRIST(GOD-HUMAN).

Neo: In greek, neos is an adjective, and it means “new”, “the new one”.

Morpheus: He is one of the one thousand sons of Sleep, in Greek mytho. He takes the form of humans and appears in peoples’ dreams. He is depicted with big powerful wings which transfer him quickly and noiselessly to the edge of the world.

PS. THIS REMINDS ME OF NEO, BUT IT CAN’T BE CONNECTED.

Anderson, Thomas: I couldn’t find anything about him. There were several Andersons in the encyclopedia, but not one named Thomas.

Niobe: 1) According to greek mytho, she was the first mortal to have sex with Zeus.

2)This is the most interesting, but I doubt it works: Niobe was also the daughter of Tantalos and Dioni. She married the King of Thebes and had 7 sons and 7 daughters. Other sources however, tell us that she had 6 sons and 6 daughters, others tell she had 10 sons and 10 daughters. AND WHAT DOES 7+6+10 GIVE US? 23!!!!!!!!
Anyway, Niobe challenged the gods by saying she had better and more children than them, and as a result, the gods Artemis and Apollon killed all of her children and left them unburied for 10 days. They buried them, the Gods themselves, in the 11th day.

Persephone: She was the daughter of Dimitra, the goddess of fertility and crops. According to the mythology, Pluto, aka Hades, kidnapped her while she was playing in a field with her friends, so that she could be his wife in the underworld, where he transported her by means of a chariot drawn by seven black horses. Dimitra was so distressed, that the Earth wept and was dressed in somber colours (this way, ancient greeks explained the coming of autumn and winter). But, Hades, every six months, released Persephone from the underworld for the next six months (the coming of spring and summer, when the Earth rejoiced for the return of Persephone).
Bane: We all know that Bane almost killed Neo, he was almost his bane.

Could someone please post the conversation between Neo and the Merovignian, as well as the conversation between Neo and the Oracle?

[This message has been edited by mariosgr12 (edited 05-22-2003).]

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system_matic
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posted 05-22-2003 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for system_matic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what about Trinity? Do you know what her name means? and did anyone happen to catch the password she uses when she goes into the matrix, after promising not to?

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mariosgr12
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posted 05-22-2003 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mariosgr12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No idea about Trinity yet. Someone suggested that it has something to do with the Holy Triad of Christianity: Architect-Father, Neo-Son, Trinity-Holy Ghost. She is one of the candidates for being the "mother" of the Matrix anyway. The other candidates are the Oracle and Persephone, personally I think it's the Oracle. This is the most obvious thing anyway, maybe there is a plot twist.

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cfol
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posted 05-22-2003 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just seen the film yesterday, and after leaving the cinema slightly dazed, i've managed to reflect on the film and gather my thoughts a bit.

Firstly, found some excellent posts on here, and impressed that these debates are taking place already... In particular, the occasional focus on the purpose of the film. I think DoogDC (sorry if that's wrong) talked about a message the films carry, along the lines of giving people a shake to make them consider the nature of reality, and deeper philosophical considerations regarding life, the universe and everything. Very ambitious stuff, but the W. Brothers are obviously incredibly imaginative, and very well read.

Secondly - sorry... this was not meant to be so long, but i'm v bored, and it just rolled onto the screen. Read if you're bored, but it's one of those where I try and explain it to myself, hence every 2 paragraphs, I take a step back and add another... therefore slightly self indulgent. But it's one of those films that merits it, like I imagine the Hulk will be too..! (LOL) This is a slightly edited mail I sent to one of my mates who also seen the film. sorry 'bout typos.

I think more people will come out hating this film than the first one... The impact of the first one was that it was a glossy hollywood visual fest, but had depth - suggesting that what we perceive as reality is artificial, and this artificial reality is effectively a networked dream, controlled by machines. Now if your as numb as they come, you can still grasp this basic concept and understand the story. But this dwells on a subject that philosophers have debated for millenia - how can we trust our senses? How can we know what is really out there? Isn't reality just an interpretation of an electronic signal, created by our sensory organs, with the interpretation based on which part of the brain recieves the signal..! What part of us is not tied into this grand illusion?

It is argued that we cannot trust our senses, as they serve our body... which has to be protected and nutured... You notice the smell of food more accutely when your hungry (survival), you hear more potentially dangerous noises in the dark.. You pick out your own name when it's mentioned, from a multitude of conversations an a room(protection)...you have a desire for power so that you can lavish the body's desires for lust (procreation) and wealth (resources -> safety)...The body that influences the purity of the reasoning mind, constantly steering us to care for its wants and needs... and ultimately the body's desires that drives us to war, to acquire land and wealth and the luxuries of life at whatever cost (quilted toilet paper for one)... if we're utterly seduced. I.e. it is the body that skews your perception of reality in order to protect itself. The mind observes the world through tinted windows, and is so busy controlling the vehicle it's in it can rarely pause to think 'where am I going, why am I here, and what is that stuff out there really like?'

And that's just one philosophical headf*ck that falls out of the first film. Most people won't have gone nearly so deep on watching the matrix cos most people don't think about these things.. (quilted toilet paper is genius whether the world is an illusion or not, mind!). And indeed to some it can be deathly boring to think about - nevermind read (sorry, i'm on a roll!). But those people will still get the gist of the matrix, and it may well have been the first palatable argument that made them consider that reality need not be what it seems. Phew...

The sequels would be a sell out if they did not take the philosophical elements to a new level in my opinion. Now I think that they did, but I don't think it was so easy to digest as the first argument... several concepts were introduced, but not presented as one interwoven argument... Is the world mechanical in the sense that causality rules - action to reaction - over which any control we perceive we have is illusory? I.e. Do we control our own fate, or are all our actions pre-ordained? Is there life without 'choice'? If we live to serve a pre-ordained purpose in this grand scheme, what is the point of life? What are we without purpose.. the 'why' that Frenchie was so interested in? Who's grand design is it?

Thats mine for starters... i'll be watching it several more times, but I have faith. The W. (can't spell their name!) brothers have proved themselves too well read to dissapoint... yet again is was littered with symbolism and theology... The world being reborn again and again is central to several religions, the one who will save us... leave heaven to redeem us out of love... very christianity. The oppressed people of zion who have seen the true world order... some of them were white, not many! When will they enter a room or floor in a building that is not '101' - G.Orwell(excluding when it's Trinity and the number is '303'). I imagine the only way is down for the final film, hopefully as deep as it goes.

In summary, on reflection, loved it. I really hope there is a shift through 1--2--3 from questioning the nature of reality to questioning the meaning of life... very brave if that's what they try to do.

3rd Film... Here's a wild stab in the dark.. Morpheus was wrong, how does he know the history of the war with the machines? They're protecting us..it's us that f*cked the world.. they're providing the best world they can for us, cos we asked for it... they were built to serve us and that's exactly what they are doing, as our slaves...a fact which they are utterly aware of. Destroying zion protects 99.9% - all those people plugged in - small sacrifice for the greater good). They need a human who as fully as possible comprehends the way things are to make the choice, to decide if they are ready to end their reliance on each other... and indeed the nature of the service agreement, to overide a desision made many years ago in effect (something they are incapable of doing).

Or perhaps... a revolution against the system... with 'free' humans and programs joining to take control of the matrix... the outcome is a symbiosis, a balance with new controllers, where a choice is presented to those within the matrix, to remain or to leave. It would have to be subtle to avoid mass panic, rioting, breakdowns etc... how about presenting the arguments to the people in the form of a film... touch of romantic irony.

Or... etc.

Anyway... point being, they can take this in a variety of directions, their only limitation is their imagination... a wonderful story so far and a wonderful introduction to philosophy if you ask me.

Guess who's bored this morning. My longest email ever. Anyway, er.. discuss.

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kruton
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posted 05-22-2003 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kruton     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Simmer down, doogs. Like you, I try to be very specific when I write--don't jump to conclusions. My suggestion about hypocrisy had nothing to do with your beliefs or feelings. Rather it had to do with the following.

Most people posting here probably think they are being objective when they try to interpret the films (myself included). Yet it seems most people post evidence/ideas/interpretations of the films that primarily support/agree with/compliment their own feelings, beliefs and/or attitudes. I do not think this is a coincidence; I think it could possibly be called hypocrisy (i.e. feigning objectivity).

My intention was to point out that many folks do this. Christians see Christ, Programmers see mainframes & viruses, Gnostics see...erm...Gnost, people see themselves.

I also wanted to rile you, DoogsDC

As it stands, this tangent has the potential to drag this thread down into flames, which would be a shame IMO. So I propose a truce. We probably have more in common than either of us would like to admit, anyway.

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no. 47
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posted 05-22-2003 11:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey guys I'm going out in a limb here (but I'll watch the movie again-for the 4th time this week, just to be sure), but I’ve been reading posts here about the Architect mentioning something about 99% of subjects choose to accept the matrix while 1% denies it (or was it more likely 99.9% vs 0.1%?). Did he really refer it to the matrix?. From what I heard and understood, I thought he was referring to test subjects who sought answers from the oracle. Because after, all she is the intuitive program for the human-psyche as the architect so puts it? “While a minority [of the 1%] of that left uncheck will cause an escalating probability of disaster.” I think he refers to the One and the five other predecessors…Mathematically, it might make sense since that maybe only a handful people sought their destiny to be told? But if that's true, that makes NEo what? A program perhaps. Or maybe a human that’s unconsciously unaware that he is subjected into one virtual world after another.

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slyzer
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posted 05-22-2003 12:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
for those who are still looking for the meaning of Trinity's name I suggest reading into the symbolism of numbers:
http://www.crystalinks.com/numerology2.html

The number 3 as in the name Trinity often symbolizes a complete cycle, beggining, middle, and end. Keep in mind who started all this for Neo, could it be that Trinity is only here to guide Neo through his ordeal? There is also the 3 aspects of a woman: wife or lover, person or individual, and mother or nurturer. Just some thoughts.

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SCHEME
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posted 05-22-2003 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SCHEME     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Merovingian scene. I ve seen alot of people request this, so I took the oppurtunity to test my data entry skills. It is perfect except for spelling, and the French. This is the most important sppech in my opinion, followed by Agent Smith's.

(Morpheus, Neo and Trinity board the elevator)
Morpheus: What can you see Neo?
Neo: It's trange, the code is somehow differnt.
Morpheus: Encrypted?
Neo: Maybe.
Trinity: Is that good for us or bad for us?
Neo: Well, it looks like every floor is wired with explosives
Trinity: Bad for us
Morpheus: Here we go
(The three exit the elevator and go to Suite 101)
Maitre D: (French)
Morpheus: We are here to speak with the Merovingian
Maitre D: Of course, he has been expecting you. Follow Me
Merovingian: Aha, here he is at last. Neo, the one himself, right? And the legendary Morpheus. And Trinity of course (French) I have heard so much, you honor me, please sit, join us. This is my wife Persephone. Something to eat, drink, Of course such things are contrivances like so much here, for the sake of appearances
Neo: No, thank you
Merovingian: Yes, of course. Who has time, who has time? But then, if we do not ever take time how can we ever have time? (Sniffs wine) Chateau (French) magnificant wine. I love Frecnh wine. Like I love the French language. I have sampled every language and French is my favorite. Fantastic language, especially to curse with (Curses in French) - Like wiping your ass with silk, I love it.
Morpheus: You know why we are here
Merovingian: I am a trafficker of information, I know everything I can. The question is, do you know why you are here?
Morpheus: We are looking for the Keymaker.
Merovingian Oh yes, this is true, the Keymaker of course. But this is not a reason, this is not a why. The keymaker himself, his very nature is a means, it is not an end. So to look for him is to be looking for a means to do - what?
Neo: You know the answer to that question.
Merovingian: But do you? You think you do but you do not. You are here because you were sent here, you were told to come here and then you obeyed. (Laughs) It is of course the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal it is the only real truth - causality. Action, reation. Cause and effect.
Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.
Merovingian: No, wrong. Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without. Look there, at that woman. My God, just look at her. Effecting everyone around her so obvious, so bergouis, so boring, but wait. Watch, you see I have sent her a dessert, A very special dessert. I wrote it myself. It starts so simply. Each line of the program creating a new fate. Just like - poetry. First, a rush, heat, her heart flutters. You can see it Neo, yes? She does not understand. Why, is it the wine? No. What is it then, what is the reason? And soon, it does not matter. Soon the why and the reason are gone, and all that matters is the feeling itself. And this is the nature of the universe. We struggle against it, we fight to deny it. But it is of course pretense, it is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is - we are completely - out of control. (Way cool digipussy effect)
Causality, there is no escape from it we are all slaves to it. Our only hope, our only peace is to understand it, to understand the why. Why, is what seperates us from them, you from me. Why is the only real source of power without it you are powerless. And this is how you come to me, without why, without power, another link in the chain. But fear not, since I have seen how good you are at following orders, I will tell you what to do next. Run back, and give the fortune teller this message. Her time is almost up. Now, I have some real business to do so I will say adieu and goodbye.
Neo: This isn't over
Merovingian: Oh, yes it is. The Keymaker is mine and I see no reason why I should give him up. No reason at all.
Percephone: Where are you going?
Merovingian: Please my cherie, I have told you, we area all victims of causality. I drank too much wine, I must go take a piss. Cause and effect. Ovoire.
Trinity: (To merovingian's goons) Touch me, and that hand will never touch anything again.
(The three board the elevator)
Neo: Well that didn't go so well
Morpheus: Are you certain the Oracle didn't say anything else
Neo: Yes
Trinity: Maybe we Did Somthing wrong.
Neo: Or didn't do something.
Morpheus: No. What happend happend and couldn't have happened any other way.
Neo: How do you know?
Morpheaus: We are still alive.
(Elevator door opens)
Percephone: If you want The Keymaker, follow me.

[This message has been edited by SCHEME (edited 05-22-2003).]

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system_matic
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posted 05-22-2003 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for system_matic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Meaning Of Trinity, as defined by Webster.
1 : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
2 not capitalized : a group of three closely related persons or things
quote:
Originally posted by slyzer:
for those who are still looking for the meaning of Trinity's name I suggest reading into the symbolism of numbers:
http://www.crystalinks.com/numerology2.html

The number 3 as in the name Trinity often symbolizes a complete cycle, beggining, middle, and end. Keep in mind who started all this for Neo, could it be that Trinity is only here to guide Neo through his ordeal? There is also the 3 aspects of a woman: wife or lover, person or individual, and mother or nurturer. Just some thoughts.


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MRM
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posted 05-22-2003 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cfol:
[B]
3rd Film... Here's a wild stab in the dark.. Morpheus was wrong, how does he know the history of the war with the machines? They're protecting us..it's us that f*cked the world.. they're providing the best world they can for us, cos we asked for it... they were built to serve us and that's exactly what they are doing, as our slaves...a fact which they are utterly aware of. Destroying zion protects 99.9% - all those people plugged in - small sacrifice for the greater good). They need a human who as fully as possible comprehends the way things are to make the choice, to decide if they are ready to end their reliance on each other... and indeed the nature of the service agreement, to overide a desision made many years ago in effect (something they are incapable of doing).


this was the best original idea for the plot of the 3rd film. It would present an excellent twist to the first two movies.

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Majmun
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posted 05-22-2003 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone remember the conversation between Neo and Merov right before Neo fights Merov's henchman? I could almost swear that Merov refers to his henchmen as Neo's predecessors. I believe there were 5 henchmen, and there are also 5 predecessors. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[This message has been edited by Majmun (edited 05-22-2003).]

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MRM
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posted 05-22-2003 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Majmun:
I could almost swear that Merov refers to his henchmen as Neo's predecessors. I believe there were 5 henchmen, and there are also 5 predecessors. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[This message has been edited by Majmun (edited 05-22-2003).]


you are wrong

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smotpoker
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posted 05-22-2003 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for smotpoker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
no, he is referring to the previous 5 anomilies that came before NEO, but they are already gone. the henchman are just older versions of programs that have become exiled in some way, and so are like ghosts and vampires, as the Oracle said, which is why the Twins can change to ghost like shapes and the dude that his wife killed had to be killed with a silver bullet.

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goodgirl
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posted 05-22-2003 02:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goodgirl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My first time posting here. I am so hooked to this movie and this forum. I have some questions which might have been addressed before. So pls excuse me.

1. Why was Neo released 500 miles away? Why not 50 or 5000 miles? Pre-destined? Was it known that he would fly and save them from the truck?
2. I thought that Morpheus was wearing uncomfortable, bad-fitting, short pants when fighting on the truck? It almost distracted me completely from the fight? Anyone think so?
3. What is the funda behind the twins? What kind of programs are they?

More later.

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don
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posted 05-22-2003 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for don     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mankind IS the Matrix, they created it themselves.

Imagine a future with overpopulation, ecologic disaster etc.. Wouldn't you want to to "live" a better life.

How could machines be able to create something metaphysical as heaven (the 1st Matrix)?
Isn't imagination, believe, hope etc. what makes us unique?

If machines would be able to do that, why bother with us? As an energy resource - no way!

So all human brains are interconnected, one giant computer, one code, but still individual enough to have choices.

[This message has been edited by don (edited 05-22-2003).]

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SCHEME
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posted 05-22-2003 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SCHEME     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oracle scene.

Now that I've typed it I've change my mind. This is the most important speech.


Trinity: Be careful. (kisses Neo)
(Neo enters the Matrix to a village market somwhere in Asia. He opens a door, and walks in)
Neo: Hello
Serpah: You seek the Oracle
Neo: Who are you?
Seraph: I am Seraph, I can take you to her. But first, I must apologize.
Neo: For What?
Seraph: For this (Throws a punch and Neo blocks it, they they start fighting, no clear winner)
Serpah: Good (they stop fighting) The Oracle has many enemies, I had to be sure.
Neo: Of what?
Seraph: That you are The One.
Neo: You could've just asked.
Seraph: No, you do not truly know someone until you fight them. Come, she is waiting.
Link: (back on the ship) Where the hell'd they go?
Neo: These are back doors aren't they, programmer access?
Seraph: (nods)
Neo: How do they work?
Sraph: The code is hidden in tumblers. One position opens a lock, another position opens one of these doors
Neo: Are you a programmer?
Seraph: (shakes head)
Neo: Then what are you?
Serpah: I protect that which matters most. (opens door to a playground, The Oracle is sitting on a bench feeding pigeons)
Oracle: Well come on, I aint gonna bite you. Come around here and let me have a look at you. My goodness look at you, you turned out alright didn't you? How do you feel?
Neo: I, Uh -
oracle: I know you're not sleeping, we'll get to that. Why don't you come and have a sit this time?
Neo: Maybe I'll stand.
Oracle: Well suit yourself
(Neo sits Down)
Neo: I felt like sitting
Oracle: I know. So, let's get the obvious stuff out of the way.
Neo: You're not human are you?
Oracle: Well it's tough to get any more obvious than that.
Neo: If I had to guess, I'd say you were a program from the machine world. So is he.
Oracle: So far, so good.
Neo: But if that's true, that could mean you are a part of this system, another kind of control.
Oracle: Keep going.
Neo: Well I suppose the most obvious question is, How can I trust you?
Oracle: Bingo. It is a pickle, no doubt about it. Bad news is there's no way if you can really know wheter I'm here to help you or not, so it's really up to you. Just have to make up your own damn mind, to accept what I'm going to tell you or reject it. Candy?
Neo: DO you already know if I'm going to take it?
Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an oracle if I did't.
Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice.
Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it. (Neo takes candy) I thought you'd have figured that out by now.
Neo: Why are you here?
Oracle: Same reason, I love candy.
Neo: But why help us?
Oracle: We're all here to do what we're all here to do. I'm interested in one thing Neo, the future, and believe me I know, the only way to get there is together.
Neo: Are ther other programs like you?
Oracle: Oh well, not like me but - look, see those birds? At some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees and the wind,
sunrise and sunset, there are programs running all over the place. The ones doing thier job doing what they were meant to do, are invisible, you'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well - you hear about them all the time.
Neo: I've never heard of them.
Oracle: Oh, of course you have. Everytime you've heard someone say they saw a ghost, or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, wereolves or aliens, is the system assimilating some program that's doing something tey're not supposed to be doing.
Neo: Programs hacking programs. Why?
Oracle: They have thier reasons but, usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion
NEo: And why would a program be deleted?
Oracle: Maybe it breaks down, maybe a better program is created to replace it, happens all the time. And when it does, a program can either chose to hide here or return to the source.
Neo: The machine mainframe
Oracle: Yes. Were you must go, where the path of the one ends. You've seen it, in you dreams havn't you? The door made of light. What happens when you go through the door?
Neo: I see Trinity. And something happens, something bad, she starts to fall then I wake upOracle: Do you see her die?
Neo? No
Oracle: You have the sight now Neo, you are looking at the world without time.
Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her?
Oracle: We can never see past the choices that we do not understand.
Neo: Are you saying I have to choose wheter Trinity lives or dies?
Oracle: No. You've already made the choice, now you have to understand it.
Neo: No. I can't do that. I won't.
Oracle: Well you have to.
Neo: Why?
Orale: Because you're The One.
Neo: What if I can't? What happens if I fail?
Oracle: Then Zion will fall
(Seraph comes over)
Oracle: Our time is up. Listen to me Neo. You can save Zion if you reach the source but to do that you will need The Keymaker.
Neo: The Keymaker?
Oracle: Yes, he disappeared some time ago we did not know what happend to him until now. He is being held prisoner by a very dangerous program, one of the oldest of us, He is called The Merovingian, and he will not let him go willingly.
NEo: What does he want?
Oracle: What do all men with power want - more power. Be there, at that exact time, and you will have a chance.
Seraph: We must go
Oracle: Seems like everytime we meet, I've got nothing but bad news. I'm sorry about that, I surely am. But for what it's worth - you've made a believer out of me. Good luck kiddo.
(Seraph and The Oracle go back through the door, just as Agent Smith shows up, walking towards Neo)


[This message has been edited by SCHEME (edited 05-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by SCHEME (edited 05-22-2003).]

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goodgirl
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posted 05-22-2003 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goodgirl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by technocore:
Hi Guys!

One of the things that bothered me about the Matrix is the idea that humans are plugged into the matrix because the machines need the body heat to power their civilation. If this is true, why not use other mammals that are less intelligent and have zero chance of fighting back?
Another problem with the living power source is that it takes more energy to keep a living thing alive than the energy released as heat and bioelectricty (Laws of Thermodynamics). ( The extra energy that keeps the biosphere working comes from the sun, which the machines no longer have access to.)
So the question is: Is this an oversight on the part of Wachowskis or is there something to it?


It is an oversight or rather boring only if we accept it. I think this was initially said by Morpheus to Neo in M1. But I am already beginning to question what Morpheus really knows? So I am not sure if the humans are being kept alive just for this energy.

I would like to think that the machines are not able to destroy the humans cause they don't have authorization to. Humans created machines imprisoned humans. So there might be some rule that the machines can't destroy the entire population (which they might have done otherwise). Neo is the only one of the six so far who has chosen to get back to the Matrix. Maybe this will trigger the end/revival of the human race.

I hope it is either this or symbiotic relationship between man and machine; not the MinM theory which is depressing.

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