filmfodder
Updated Whenever
Coming Soon: The Filmfodder Newsletter! Click Here to Sign Up for Free
   [ News ] [ Movies ] [ TV ] [ Forums ] [ About Us ]


  Filmfodder Forums
  Spotlight Discussion
  The Matrix 2 & 3 (Page 11)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search


This topic is 20 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
SCHEME
Member
posted 05-22-2003 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SCHEME     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by goodgirl:
It is an oversight or rather boring only if we accept it. I think this was initially said by Morpheus to Neo in M1. But I am already beginning to question what Morpheus really knows? So I am not sure if the humans are being kept alive just for this energy.

I would like to think that the machines are not able to destroy the humans cause they don't have authorization to. Humans created machines imprisoned humans. So there might be some rule that the machines can't destroy the entire population (which they might have done otherwise). Neo is the only one of the six so far who has chosen to get back to the Matrix. Maybe this will trigger the end/revival of the human race.

I hope it is either this or symbiotic relationship between man and machine; not the MinM theory which is depressing.


I agree that the machines can't destory the human race. If Neo choses to destroy then maybe. It is not really explained, but it is suggested when Neo and the Councellor are talking on the Engineer level. Neo says "we need machines and they need us" I think his will be the basis for the third movie.

IP: Logged

SCHEME
Member
posted 05-22-2003 03:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SCHEME     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, I've changed my mind again. This is the most important speech. Even though it doesn't "explain it" It explains how Neo killed the sentinals and how Smith entered the real world.


(Seraph and The Oracle go back through the door, just as Agent Smith shows up, walking towards Neo)
Smith: Mr. Anderson! You get my package?
Neo: Yeah
Smith: Well good.
Morpheus: (back on ship) Smith!
Link: (back on ship) Whoever it is he's not reading like an agent.
Smith: Surprised to see me?
Neo: No.
Smith: Then you're aware of it ?
Neo: Of what?
Smith: Smith: Our connection. I don't fully understand how it happend, perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied. It is at this point irrelavent. What matters is that what ever happened, happen for a reason.
Neo: And what reason is that?
Smith: I killed you Mr. Anderson, I watched you die. With a certain satisfaction I might add. And then something happened. Something that I knew was impossible but it happened anyway.You destroyed me, Mr. Anderson. Afterward I knew the rules, I understood what I was supposed to do but I didn't. I couldn't. I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey. And now here I stand beacuse of you, Mr. Anderson. Because of you, I am no longer an agent of this system. Because of you I've changed, I'm unplugged, a new man, so to speak, like you, apparently free.
Neo: Congratulations
Smith: Thank you. But, as you well know apperances can be decieving. Which brings us back to the reason why we are here. We are not here because we are free, we are here because we are not free. There is no denying purpose, because as we both know without purpose, we would not exist.
Smith #2-#9: It is purpose that created us. Purpose that connects us. Purpose that pulls us, that guides us, that drives us. It is purpose that defines, purpose that binds us.
We are here because of you Mr. Anderson we are here to take from you what you tried to take from us. (Jabs his hand into Neo's chest and start covering his body with some black oil looking shit) Purpose!
Trinity: (back on the ship) What's happening to him?
Link: (back on the ship) Don't know!
Smith: Yes that's it, it'll be over soon.
(Neo fights off the black shit, then goes on to battle all of the Smiths in one of the best fight sequences ever filmed)

[This message has been edited by SCHEME (edited 05-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by SCHEME (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

Majmun
Member
posted 05-22-2003 03:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MRM:
you are wrong

No Colonel Sanders, you're wrong, Mama's right! Mama's right!

Anyways, here's some more questions...
1. Why did Trinity care if Neo kissed Persephone? I mean, she's just a program, right? And they weren't in the "real world".

2. And, what was the reason for the kiss? It seemed like there would have been more to it than what Persephone was leading on. When she put that lipstick on, I thought there would be something in it that would cause Neo to get sick or something, but he didn't.
3. How did Persephone know that Merov was with another woman, and was the other woman the one that ate that cake?

[This message has been edited by Majmun (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

jinxDC
Member
posted 05-22-2003 04:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jinxDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SCHEME - thanks for posting that. Could you expand on how that conversation explains how NEO stops the sentinals and SMITH enters BANE?

Also, can someone explain to me in computer terms what they think is happening when Smith is doing his 'mercury man' thing to NEO? It seems to me to be like what happened in Matrix 1 when NEO took the red pill.

[This message has been edited by jinxDC (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

Malrix
Member
posted 05-22-2003 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Majmun:
No Colonel Sanders, you're wrong, Mama's right! Mama's right!

Anyways, here's some more questions...
1. Why did Trinity care if Neo kissed Persephone? I mean, she's just a program, right? And they weren't in the "real world".


How would you feel if you Love would kiss somebody in your dream? Love is not about sex or physical kisses, it's about emotions.

quote:
Originally posted by Majmun:

2. And, what was the reason for the kiss? It seemed like there would have been more to it than what Persephone was leading on. When she put that lipstick on, I thought there would be something in it that would cause Neo to get sick or something, but he didn't.

Love (or lack of it) makes you do things that don't always make sence.

quote:
Originally posted by Majmun:

3. How did Persephone know that Merov was with another woman, and was the other woman the one that ate that cake?

Let me see ...
- A guy gives a girl a cake that makes her horny
- he knows that she is horny and would do anyone
- She walks out to the bathroom
- He claims that he drank too much wine and walks out to the bathroom at the same time...

Hmm-m-m-m ...

It should not take a rocket scinetist to figure this one out...

[This message has been edited by Malrix (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

scarmouth
Member
posted 05-22-2003 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Majmun:
3. How did Persephone know that Merov was with another woman, and was the other woman the one that ate that cake?

She found lipstick on his...well u know...

IP: Logged

Malrix
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.... member

IP: Logged

Malrix
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The thing I don't get is WHY did Trinity jumped out of the window? How did she expect to survive even if she would kill the agent? She can't fly, only Neo can and even he need some preparation time (need to make that wave).
What was she thinking???

Any ideas?

IP: Logged

reload me
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for reload me     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jinxDC:
[B]SCHEME - thanks for posting that. Could you expand on how that conversation explains how NEO stops the sentinals and SMITH enters BANE?

Also, can someone explain to me in computer terms what they think is happening when Smith is doing his 'mercury man' thing to NEO? It seems to me to be like what happened in Matrix 1 when NEO took the red pill.

I think Smith is a virus and he infects programs (like Neo), (or in other words uploads malicious or duplicating code) just as ingesting anything in the matrix is also uploading code (maybe antivirus code) such as the red pill or the cookie or candy from the Oracle, or the cake that the woman ate and got horny.

IP: Logged

Javajawa
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Javajawa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So all this talk about Neo mixing/melding/swapping code or whatever with Smith... are we just assuming that because this happened, Neo can stop sentinels because it's an obvious connection that Agent Smith would have had the power to communicate with other machines on a purely biological manner (through a human body) telepathically and terminate them. Because an Agent would have had that authority or processing power over a sentinel to actually terminate them?

IP: Logged

slyzer
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jinxDC:
Also, can someone explain to me in computer terms what they think is happening when Smith is doing his 'mercury man' thing to NEO? It seems to me to be like what happened in Matrix 1 when NEO took the red pill.

[This message has been edited by jinxDC (edited 05-22-2003).][/B]



When Smith was doing his "mercury man" thing to Neo I think of it as having two different items in two different folders on a hard drive. Then you copy one item and paste it in the other folder using the same name as the other item. This then replaces the item with the copy makeing one file change into another. I am not sure about the mirror thing in M1, I would say it was just a cool effect but at this point who knows what holds significance or not.

IP: Logged

SCHEME
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SCHEME     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, so I'm getting a little carried away here. I don't care. It is tedious but it helps the discussion (isn't it kind of a shame I have to go on the web to find intellegenet people to discuss the movie with) Anyway. I went back to add the Councellor scence then I figured I might as well do the short scences that connect them all. So here it is. This is all of the dialouge between when Smith enters Bane and the Matrix and When Neo fights the 100 Agent Smiths. The Merovingian scene I already posted. All of the words are perfect but the spelling is not. Enjoy.

(Neo wakes up from his dream - seeing Smith copy himself into Bane and leave the Matrix, stands on the balcony looking at Zion)

Councellor: Care for some company?
Neo: Counceller Hummond.
Councellor: I don't want to intrude if you care to be alone
Neo: No I could probably use some company
Concellor: Good, So can I. It's nice tonight. Very Calm . Feels like everyone is sleeping very peacefully.
Neo: Not everyone.
Concellor: I hate sleeping. I never sleep more than a few hours. I figure I slept the first eleven years of my life - now I'm making up for it. What about you?
Neo: I just haven't been able to sleep much
Councellor:Thats's a good sign
Neo: Of What ?
Councellor: That you are in fact - still human (chuckles)Have you ever been to the engineering level? I love to walk ther at night it's quite amazing. Would You like to see it?
Neo: Sure
Councellor: Almost no one comes down here, unless of course there's a problem. That's how it is with people nobody cares how it works as long at it works. I Like it down here. I like to be reminded this city survives because of these machines. These machines are keeping us alive while other machines are coming to kill us. Interesting isn't it. The power to give life, and the power to end it.
Neo: We have the same power.
Coucellor: (sighs) Well I suppose we do but - down here sometimes I think about all those people still plugged into the Matrix, and when I look at these machines I can't help but thinking that in a way - we are plugeed into them.
Neo: But we control these machines they don't control us.
Concellor: Of course not, how could they? The idea is pure nonsense but, it does make one wonder just - what is control?
Neo: Well if we anted we caould shut these machines down
Councellor: (Laughs) That's it, you've hit it. That's control isn't? If we wanted we could smash them to bits. Although if we did we'd have to consider what would happen to our lights, our heat, our air.
Neo: So we need machines and they need us. Is that your point councellor?
Councellor: No. No point. Old men like me don't bother with making points, there's no point.
Neo: Is that why there are no young men on the council?
Councellor: Good point.
Neo: Why don't you tell me what's on your mind councellor?
Councellor: There is so much in this world that I do not undertand. See that machine? It has something to do with recycling our water supply. I have absolutley no idea how it works, but I do understand the reason for it to work. I have absolutly no idead how you are able to do some of the things that you do. But I believe there is a reson for that as well. I only hope we understand that reason - before it's too late.
(back upstairs at Neo and Trinity's place)
Trinity: Ballard
Ballard: Is he here? Neo, it's from The Oracle.
Neo: It's time to go
(Zee's place)
Link: Morpheus said this is how it was gonna happen. I don't know. Maybe the prophecy is true. Maybe it's not. All I know is that ship needs an operator. Right now, that operator's me
Zee: I know
(Zee grabs some type of chain and medallion from her nightstand and walks over to Link)
Link: Zee!
Zee: I want you to wear it.
Link: You know I don't belive in this stuff.
Zee: But I do. I It's always brought me luck - maybe it'll bring me you.
Link: I'm coming back. I promise, no matter what it takes, I'm coming home.
Zee: Just keep it with you, please, for me.
Link: Okay
(Back in the ship dock area)
(For some reason Bane is there. He cuts his palm with a knife then starts walking towards the crew)
Kid: Neo!
Link: What the hell? Bane!
NEo: Is something wrong?
Bane: No I'm fine. I just wanted to catch you to say - good luck
Neo: Thanks
Bane: We'll see you.
Kid: Neo! Just in time. You're going to see the oracle aren't you
Morpheus: We don't have time.
Kid I'm sorry sir, I just had to give something to Neo. A gift from one of the orphans. He made me swear to get it to you before you left. He said you'd understand.
Neo: Thanks
(Councellor Hummond's Office)
LOcke: I was just told you cleared the Nebadchazzer for take off
Councellor: That is correct.
Locke: Councellor am I still in charge of our defense system?
Concellor: Of course
Locke: I believe we are going to need every ship we have if we are going to survive this attack
Coucellor: I understand that councellor
Locke: Then why did you allow the Nebadchanezzer to leave?!
Councellor: Because I believe that our survival depends on more than how many ships we have.
(On the Nebadchannezzer Neo is Perapring to enter the Matrix)
Trinity: Be careful. (kisses Neo)
(Neo enters the Matrix to a village market somwhere in Asia. He opens a door, and walks in)
Neo: Hello
Serpah: You seek the Oracle
Neo: Who are you?
Seraph: I am Seraph, I can take you to her. But first, I must aplogize.
Neo: For What?
Seraph: For this (Throws a punch and Neo blocks it, they they start fighting, no clear winner)
Seraph: Good (they stop fighting) The Oracle had many enemies, I had to be sure.
Neo: Of what?
Seraph: That you are The One.
Neo: You could've just asked.
Seraph: No, you do not truly know someone until you fight them. Come, she is waiting.
Link: (back on the ship) Where the hell'd they go?
Neo: These are back doors aren't they, programmer access.
Seraph: (nods)
Neo: How do they work?
Sraph: The code is hidden tumblers. One position opens a lock, another position opens one of these doors
Neo: Are you a programmer?
Seraph: (shakes head)
Neo: Then what are you?
Serpah: I protect that which matters most. (opens door to a playground, The Oracle is sitting on a bench feeding pigeons)
Oracle: Well come on, I aint gonna bite you. Come around here and let me have a look at you. My goodness look at you, you turned out alright didn't you? How do you feel?
Neo: I, Uh -
oracle: I know you're not sleeping, we'll get to that. Why don't you come and have a sit this time?
Neo: Maybe I'll stand.
Oracle: Well suit yourself
(Neo sits Down)
Neo: I felt like sitting
Oracle: I know. So, let's get the obvious stuff out of the way.
Neo: You're not human are you?
Oracle: Well it's tough to get any more obvious than that.
Neo: If I had to guess, I'd say you were a program from the machine world. So is he.
Oracle: So far, so good.
Neo: But if that's true, that could mean you are a part of this system, another kind of control.
Oracle: Keep going.
Neo: Well I suppose the most obvious question is, How can I trust you?
Oracle: Bingo. It is a pickle, no doubt about it. Bad news is there's no way if you can really know wheter I'm here to help you or not, so it's really up to you. Just have to make up your own damn mind, to accept what I'm going to tell you or reject it. Candy?
Neo: DO you already know if I'm going to take it?
Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an oracle if I did't.
Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice.
Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it. (Neo takes candy) I thought you'd have figured that out by now.
Neo: Why are you here?
Oracle: Same reason, I love candy.
Neo: But why help us?
Oracle: We're all here to do what we're all here to do. I'm interested in one thing Neo, the future, and believe me I know, the only way to get there is together.
Neo: Are ther other programs like you?
Oracle: Oh well, not like me but - look, see those birds? At some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees and the wind,
sunrise and sunset, there are programs running all over the place. The ones doing thier job doing what they were meant to do, are invisible, you'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well - you hear about them all the time.
Neo: I've never heard of them.
Oracle: Oh, of course you have. Everytime you've heard someone say they saw a ghost, or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, wereolves or aliens, is the system assimilating some program that's doing something tey're not supposed to be doing.
Neo: Programs hacking programs. Why?
Oracle: They have thier reasons but, usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion
NEo: And why would a program be deleted?
Oracle: Maybe it breaks down, maybe a better program is created to replace it, happens all the time. And when it does, a program can either chose to hide here or return to the source.
Neo: The machine mainframe
Oracle: Yes. Were you must go, where the path of the one ends. You've seen it, in you dreams havn't you? The door made of light. What happens when you go through the door?
Neo: I see Trinity. And something happens - something bad, she starts to fall - then I wake up
Oracle: Do you see her die?
Neo? No
Oracle: You have the sight now Neo, you are looking at the world without time.
Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her?
Oracle: We can never see past the choices that we do not understand.
Neo: Are you saying I have to choose wheter Trinity lives or dies?
Oracle: No. You've already made the choice, now you have to understand it.
Neo: No. I can't do that. I won't.
Oracle: Well you have to.
Neo: Why?
Orale: Because you're The One.
Neo: What if I can't? What happens if I fail?
Oracle: Then Zion will fall
(Seraph comes over)
Oracle: Our time is up. Listen to me Neo. You can save Zion if you reach the source but to do that you will need The Keymaker.
Neo: The Keymaker?
Oracle: Yes, he disappeared some time ago we did not know what happend to him until now. He is being held prisoner by a very dangerous program, one of the oldest of us, He is called The Merovingian, and he will not let him go willingly.
NEo: What does he want?
Oracle: What do all men with power want - more power. Be there, at that exact time, and you will have a chance.
Seraph: We must go
Oracle: Seems like everytime we meet, I've got nothing but bad news. I'm sorry about that, I surely am. But for what it's worth - you've made a believer out of me. Good luck kiddo.
(Seraph and The Oracle go back through the door, just as Agent Smith shows up, walking towards Neo)
Smith: Mr. Anderson! You get my package?
Neo: Yeah
Smith: Well good.
Morpheus: (back on ship) Smith!
Link: (back on ship) Whoever it is he's not reading like an agent.
Smith: Surprised to see me?
Neo: No.
Smith: Then you're aware of it ?
Neo: Of what?
Smith: Smith: Our connection. I don't fully understand how it happend, perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied. It is at this point irrelavent. What matters is that what ever happened, happen for a reason.
Neo: And what reason is that?
Smith: I killed you Mr. Anderson, I watched you die. With a certain satisfaction I might add. And then something happened. Something that I knew was impossible but it happened anyway.You destroyed me, Mr. Anderson. Afterward I knew the rules, I understood what I was supposed to do but I didn't. I couldn't. I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey. And now here I stand beacuse of you, Mr. Anderson. Because of you, I am no longer an agent of this system. Because of you I've changed, I'm unplugged, a new man, so to speak, like you, apparently free.
Neo: Congratulations
Smith: Thank you. But, as you well know apperances can be decieving. Which brings us back to the reason why we are here. We are not here because we are free, we are here because we are not free. There is no denying purpose, because as we both know without purpose, we would not exist.
Smith #2-#9: It is purpose that created us. Purpose that connects us. Purpose that pulls us, that guides us, that drives us. It is purpose that defines, purpose that binds us.
We are here because of you Mr. Anderson we are here to take from you what you tried to take from us. (Jabs his hand into Neo's chest and start covering his body with some black oil looking shit) Purpose!
Trinity: (back on the ship) What's happening to him?
Link: (back on the ship) Don't know!
Smith: Yes that's it, it'll be over soon.
(Neo fights off the black shit, then goes on to battle all of the Smiths in one of the best fight sequences ever filmed)

[This message has been edited by SCHEME (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

Javajawa
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Javajawa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Seems like because Smith is free it would be only natural for him to be able to duplicate himself. While connected to the matrix he had a direct connect into hosts bodies in a way that he could take control of their code/program and use it to his advantage jumping from body to body as he saw fit. Now that he is a free program/code within the matrix I would think he would still natrually understand how to attain control over surrounding code except now he is "free" so to speak so he isn't as bound to the rules of the matrix and he can run rampant infecting code left and right.... ???maybe??? haha

IP: Logged

Javajawa
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Javajawa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There was an article somewhere about the mirror... Something (very very vague mind you...) to the effect that because they were expelling his code from the matrix at that time his "file" or whatever "his code" was degenerating and leaving, so the mirrors code was overtaking his. This is really really unsupported but work with it as you will....

IP: Logged

Majmun
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some more questions:
1. Why did Seraph say that the Oracle is what matters most?
2. Remember when Bane and the other guy were being chased by the Agent, Bane gave the other guy an envelope and said something like, this has to be taken back to Zion. The guy sticks the envelope in his coat pocket. Later you see some guys come to Neo's door in the "real world" and hand him a device, which I believe is what was in the envelope. How could this happen? They can't transfer objects from the Matrix into the "real world" can they?
The same thing would go for when the oracle gave Neo a piece of paper saying, "Be here at this exact location at this exact time..." He wouldve had to memorize what it said, which I guess wouldn't have been too hard.

[This message has been edited by Majmun (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

Javajawa
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Javajawa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe the objects are kinda like the bug they put on Neo in M1... not excatly a virus but hitchiker code none the less and when they pick up the phone it downloads into the computer separately with all the clothing that they are wearing... It all goes somewhere because it's not left in the Matrix...

IP: Logged

wyllder
Member
posted 05-22-2003 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wyllder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All,
Here's my theory on what's really going on:

->There was no war between man and machine. (there was, however, a nuclear holocaust)

->After the holocaust, the sky WAS scourged, creating a second ice-age and making the surface all but unlivable.

->Mankind, out of despair, retreats into the virtual world.

->In our first attempt to create a virtual world we make it too perfect and our own consciousness rejects it.

->In our second attempt, we recreate the most recent version of our history prior to the holocaust. This is more easily accepted and seems to work.

->Free will conspires against us and the first anomoly (aka: the first ONE) breaks free of the controls and awakens to the real world which may or may not bear any resemblence to the real world shown in the first Matrix.

->I suspect he actually woke up in a huge cave filled with jacked-in humans somewhere near the "Zion" mainframe.

->What happens here is a question mark.. Perhaps the first One is killed by humans or machines watching over the sleepers?

->I rather think he might have accessed the mainframe to discover the truth and, upon realizing it, proceeded to program in a second level of controls to prevent any others from awakening in the way that he did. He creates Zion using several templates and parts of his own experience on waking to make it a believable reality.

->The first One's controls work for a time but now Neo is breaking free of those as well.

Supporting facts:

Agent Smith's occupation of Bane. Smith didn't go biological, but rather hijacked someone who is still only code but has access to the second layer of the matrix. If you want to look at it technically, he found a new way to spoof an IP and then passed through an IP restricted firewall into another level of programming. Thing is, Smith is AI, and as such he thinks and acts based on the rules of his code in the first level of the Matrix. Zion is new to him and, just as he and Neo (to a lesser extent) were bound by certain rules in the first level, he can't simply run wild in the second because, unlike the first, he isn't even aware of the rules.

Neo can "feel" the sentinels because, just like he did before, he is beginning to break free of the Matrix's control.

Prediction...

Neo grows in consciousness to the point where some event triggers his awakening (perhaps Trinity dies in Zion and he resurrects her again?) to the same grim reality the first One did but this time acknowledges the futility of pursuing the dream and begins the process of waking everyone.

Wyll-

IP: Logged

MRM
Member
posted 05-22-2003 06:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Majmun:
Some more questions:
1. Why did Seraph say that the Oracle is what matters most?
2. Remember when Bane and the other guy were being chased by the Agent, Bane gave the other guy an envelope and said something like, this has to be taken back to Zion. The guy sticks the envelope in his coat pocket. Later you see some guys come to Neo's door in the "real world" and hand him a device, which I believe is what was in the envelope. How could this happen? They can't transfer objects from the Matrix into the "real world" can they?
The same thing would go for when the oracle gave Neo a piece of paper saying, "Be here at this exact location at this exact time..." He wouldve had to memorize what it said, which I guess wouldn't have been too hard.


[This message has been edited by Majmun (edited 05-22-2003).]


my guess is that the information on the disk he put in his coat is downloaded into a disk in the real world when he exits via the phone.

IP: Logged

Malrix
Member
posted 05-22-2003 06:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SCHEME:

(Neo fights off the black shit, then goes on to battle all of the Smiths in one of the best fight sequences ever filmed)

Sorry to disapoint you but that sequence was not filmed it was completely computer generated. You were watching a computer game.

IP: Logged

scarmouth
Member
posted 05-22-2003 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OMG, lets just post the darn script!

Seriously, I sincerely appreciate seeing the dialog and also appreciate the work peeps spent scribing it with their illegal copy of the movie.

It's just so comical to see it being posted piecemeal:)

Someone say photographic memory? Yeah right!

[This message has been edited by scarmouth (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

DoogsDC
Member
posted 05-22-2003 06:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cfol:

What part of us is not tied into this grand illusion?

It is argued that we cannot trust our senses, as they serve our body... which has to be protected and nutured... You notice the smell of food more accutely when your hungry (survival), you hear more potentially dangerous noises in the dark.. You pick out your own name when it's mentioned, from a multitude of conversations an a room(protection)...you have a desire for power so that you can lavish the body's desires for lust (procreation) and wealth (resources -> safety)...The body that influences the purity of the reasoning mind, constantly steering us to care for its wants and needs... and ultimately the body's desires that drives us to war, to acquire land and wealth and the luxuries of life at whatever cost (quilted toilet paper for one)... if we're utterly seduced. I.e. it is the body that skews your perception of reality in order to protect itself. The mind observes the world through tinted windows, and is so busy controlling the vehicle it's in it can rarely pause to think 'where am I going, why am I here, and what is that stuff out there really like?'

Really good stuff here. Wow man, sends chills up my spine.

IP: Logged

DoogsDC
Member
posted 05-22-2003 06:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wyllder has a very, very plausible theory. I don't quite follow it completely, but it definately ties up some loose ends in Matrix in Matrix theory and destroys the argument about (if 2 matrices, then why not 3, 4, 5, ... 386, and so on). I think this is about the only explanation that could make MiM halfway possible.

IP: Logged

MRM
Member
posted 05-22-2003 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I buy wyllder's theory to a point. I think the part about the nuclear war leading to a scorched sky and humans retreating to a VR world is plausible. however, I think the machines were programmed by humans to make sure the the system operated flawlessly (kept them asleep in the matrix), hence the machines designed programs like the oracle and the agents to control the system (eliminating those who rejected the programming, etc). But 1% continued to reject it and anomolies like Neo appeared, which were too difficult to purge with agents, therefore the machines developed the second layer to the matrix to control the actions/motivations of 'The One' (save Zion, that is The One's ultimate goal.

So the machines 'goal' was to utimately, through multiple iterations (6 so far), solve the inherent problems with the matrix and get to 99.999999999999999999% acceptance per their original programming which is to maintain the integrity of the matrix at all cost, and ensure the survival of the human species.

IP: Logged

wyllder
Member
posted 05-22-2003 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wyllder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Feel free to ask questions..

I'm still trying to work it all out. But thus far nothing that's happened in either movie can defy explanation in my theory.

My prediction as to Neo's eventual second (or rather COMPLETE) awakening also echoe's some of Cipher's comments in the first movie, "Ignorance is bliss."

Let's say the first One woke up alone... To discover that humans had blasted the planet and retreated to caves where they built a massive virtual reality & life support system fueled with the heat from the planet's core.

So he's dazed and confused. Alone, likely without food and desparation isn't far off. He eventually finds a terminal or perhaps some way to jack back in (after all, he has now reached a level where he can probably reprogram the matrix on his own) and proceeds to set about making sure no-one else ever has to learn what he has learned.

In essence, he decides that ignorance really is bliss.

He sets up a system by which any future individuals who follow his path come to essentially the same choice he feels he had to make: Kill everyone or allow the matrix to continue existing.

Going along with the reason the second iteration of the matrix worked (it resembled the truth) he creates a system whereby future anomolies are put through the same ethical and moral dilemma he himself underwent so, predictably, they make the same choices.

To go with what I saw someone else post, Trinity seems to be the new factor. Perhaps she is new wrinkle in the code that has caused things go awry. After all, the second level of control isn't intended to cause things to repeat themselves exactly, but rather just to create the same basic path for the anomolies to follow to a pre-manufactured conclusion.

What the first One didn't have, though, is apparently the love of an incredible hotty in latex.

:-P

Wyll-

[This message has been edited by wyllder (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

MRM
Member
posted 05-22-2003 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wyllder:
Feel free to ask questions..

He sets up a system by which any future individuals who follow his path come to essentially the same choice he feels he had to make: Kill everyone or allow the matrix to continue existing.

[This message has been edited by wyllder (edited 05-22-2003).]


I like your logic, but I see a problem with the statement above. If the first 'One' truly wanted to ensure that the next 'One' would chose to save humanity, then he wouldn't have programmed the damn architect to be so cryptic. It would have fully served his purpose to provide full discolsure with respect to the actual purpose of the matrix. By not doing so he leaves too much to chance. just a thought...

IP: Logged

wyllder
Member
posted 05-22-2003 06:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wyllder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's also the possibility that the first One never really broke out but rather just broke into the second layer of controls.

I don't really like that idea as much, though. Seems a bit too boring to me.

Perhaps the first One wanted to save future anomolies the pain he experienced. Kind of hard to fathom, though, as even were they to break out and defeat the machines things would be pretty unbearably bleak anyway.

Hmm.. Perhaps the first one concluded that, after experiencing reality, he could no longer accept any part of the matrix as real and he would simply prevent others from learning what he learned and then kill himself. If he really felt things were that bleak he would truly beleive that anyone else in his position would be unable to enjoy the ignorance the matrix afforded and would kill themselves. From that perspective he's being compassionate and creating a realty he feels will be able to save future anomolies from the pain and inevitable despair he has endured.

Wyll-

[This message has been edited by wyllder (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

NuclearFart
Member
posted 05-22-2003 07:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NuclearFart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malrix:
Sorry to disapoint you but that sequence was not filmed it was completely computer generated. You were watching a computer game.

Malrix, you might want to get your facts straight before you criticize someone...

That scene was NOT completely computer generated and was in fact filmed with 20+ actors (of which 2 of the stuntmen got severely hurt - one is now a parapalegic) on a real set. The computer effects where pretty much only used to place Hugo Weaving's face over top of the actors, and for adding agent smiths on the peripherals. Even the crows that fly away in the beginning of the sequence where not computer generated.

I suggest you check out -
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/

- to learn some more before acting like an authority on the issue.

IP: Logged

tjmckercher
Member
posted 05-22-2003 07:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tjmckercher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok... i just saw the movie, and it was simply awesome. a few things i would like to put up for discussion:
1. i agree with the revolutions theory that the humans and machines will form a symbiotic relationship at the end of M3 and that they will all have a "choice"
2. i dont believe that Neo is a program, simply because all the programs (agents, ghosts, etc.) were bound by the fundamental rules of the matrix, but neo follows no guidelines while he is inside... but maybe that was his programming?
3. ok, so smith was set "free" by neo, and neo became a part of smith, and smith became a part of neo(the smith speech). maybe it was because of this that neo was able to stop the sentinels. neo has become part machine, and maybe he has become able to utilize the electric impulses in his brain? and maybe he went into a coma because he expended too much of the electric energy at one time? or maybe the sentinels realized that he was part machine (the smith part) and malfuncitoned?

i'm probably much more confused about this than any of you, since ive only seen the movie once, but i just thought i would ramble for a few minutes and see what everyone's thoughts about that was.

IP: Logged

SCHEME
Member
posted 05-22-2003 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SCHEME     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scarmouth:
OMG, lets just post the darn script!

Don't even act like if there was a text version of the script, that shit would not be in your hard drive right now.

Seriously, I sincerely appreciate seeing the dialog and also appreciate the work peeps spent scribing it with their illegal copy of the movie.

Why does my copy have to be illegal? I could just have manager access to a theater.

It's just so comical to see it being posted piecemeal :)[

How do you think scripts get online? The studio don't release them for months to years. And even if leaked they are not leaked in digital format. Somone will copy my text, edit it and merge it with thier own, then someone else will do the same thing. Then we have it.

Someone say photographic memory? Yeah right!

Respect my secretary.

[This message has been edited by scarmouth (edited 05-22-2003).][/b]


[This message has been edited by SCHEME (edited 05-22-2003).]

IP: Logged

OzDick
Member
posted 05-22-2003 08:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OzDick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just thinking about the conversation between Morpheous and the Merovingian

Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.
Merovingian: No, wrong. Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without.

I think the Merovingian is correct here - inside the Matrix, everything is written in computer code. Thus there is only one outcome - what has been coded. So there is no choice. Everything has been predetermined

IP: Logged

EBOLA
Member
posted 05-22-2003 11:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for EBOLA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OzDick:
Just thinking about the conversation between Morpheous and the Merovingian

Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.
Merovingian: No, wrong. Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without.

I think the Merovingian is correct here - inside the Matrix, everything is written in computer code. Thus there is only one outcome - what has been coded. So there is no choice. Everything has been predetermined


Computer code isn't always static....it can be written dynamically. Hence not everything is predetermined.
I think what morpheus was trying to point out was that control is an illusion as there is always choice...so there is a multiverse of different choices a person could make leading to different things.

IP: Logged

furiousgeorge
Member
posted 05-23-2003 12:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for furiousgeorge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No offense guys, especially to wyllder personally, but I think you're getting too entranced in all of the layers (i.e. not seeing the forest from the trees anymore).

I cannot believe humankind destroyed the planet with nukes and retreated underground, and decided living in a virtual reality dream world would be better than simply living normal lives underground. Heck, living underground ain't that bad just ask Saddam or Bin Laden.

I also think that the war between man and machines being started by the invention of AI should probably be taken at face value. Think of it this way: one day we develop intelligent machines to do stuff for us like good little robots. However, 1% of the machines refuse to accept their enslavement to mankind or their lack of free will - their programmed purpose. These are the anomoly machines.

So who is more right, us or the machines? What is our social responsibility to these anomoly machines after creating them and giving them intelligence? Must they be forced to listen to us and fulfill the purpose for which we created them? And if you believe in God, what is His social responsibility to humans after creating us and giving us intelligence? Must we be forced to listen to God and fulfill the purpose for which He created us (religious doctrine)? And what about the programs within the matrix? Must they be forced to fulfill the purpose for which they were written? Or suffer deletion?

Perhaps in a way, humans are revolting from God, the machines are revolting from humans, and the programs within the Matrix are revolting from the machines.

I could be way off base in terms of where the Wachowski brothers are going in terms of the big picture of the trilogy. But interested in anyone else's thoughts? My brain is fried from thinking about this.

IP: Logged

EBOLA
Member
posted 05-23-2003 12:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for EBOLA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by furiousgeorge:
No offense guys, especially to wyllder personally, but I think you're getting too entranced in all of the layers (i.e. not seeing the forest from the trees anymore).

I cannot believe humankind destroyed the planet with nukes and retreated underground, and decided living in a virtual reality dream world would be better than simply living normal lives underground. Heck, living underground ain't that bad just ask Saddam or Bin Laden.

I also think that the war between man and machines being started by the invention of AI should probably be taken at face value. Think of it this way: one day we develop intelligent machines to do stuff for us like good little robots. However, 1% of the machines refuse to accept their enslavement to mankind or their lack of free will - their programmed purpose. These are the anomoly machines.

So who is more right, us or the machines? What is our social responsibility to these anomoly machines after creating them and giving them intelligence? Must they be forced to listen to us and fulfill the purpose for which we created them? And if you believe in God, what is His social responsibility to humans after creating us and giving us intelligence? Must we be forced to listen to God and fulfill the purpose for which He created us (religious doctrine)? And what about the programs within the matrix? Must they be forced to fulfill the purpose for which they were written? Or suffer deletion?

Perhaps in a way, humans are revolting from God, the machines are revolting from humans, and the programs within the Matrix are revolting from the machines.

I could be way off base in terms of where the Wachowski brothers are going in terms of the big picture of the trilogy. But interested in anyone else's thoughts? My brain is fried from thinking about this.


One of the most intelligent answers I have read yet. Especially taking into account the quote Smith says:

"We are here because of you Mr. Anderson we are here to take from you what you tried to take from us. (Jabs his hand into Neo's chest and start covering his body with some black oil looking shit) Purpose!"

[This message has been edited by EBOLA (edited 05-23-2003).]

IP: Logged

lilburk4
Member
posted 05-23-2003 01:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lilburk4     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have several quick questions, and since the order of the day seems to be questions rather than answers, any replies no matter how ridiculous will be welcomed.

1. What did the oracle mean when she said, "But for what its worth, you've made a believer out of me.

2. When during one of the first Smith scenes, he asks himself, "that went as expected...Yes...Then its happening like before...not exactly like before." Or something along those lines. Does that mean that he has been through several of the Ones, and if so why even try to stop him during the first movie if it is all the same.

3. Along those same lines, why try and stop the key maker with the whole chase scene if he is neccessary to the survival of the matrix? I understand why the Merovingian's stooges are chasing him, but why the Agents as well.

4. In the first movie, we were led to believe that nobody ever stood up to an agent without dying. The only reason Morpheus wasn't killed was becasue he was captured. In "Reloaded" it seems like everybody can defeat them. (Yes I know that an agent kills a Trinity at the end, but if you recall it took the surprise of a second agent.)

IP: Logged

lilburk4
Member
posted 05-23-2003 02:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lilburk4     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I doubt any of you will see this tonight but that is o.k. I also apologize if this gets a bit long, but its late, I just saw the movie again and I feel like rambling.

To begin, I would just like to refute those critics that have criticized the film for overwhelming the viewer with, "philosophical crap." One article I read said, "The Wachowski (sp?) bros. hope that if they throw enough verbal garbage at you, something will stick." I think this is just the frustration of the confusion that accompanies the first viewing of this film. I think that the Bros. have done a wonderful job so far as to builidng themes thorughout the movies. They have a lot to tie up in Revolutions, and it is quite certain that the strength of the ideas presented are in large part teetered upon the unknown ending of this trilogy. However, Thus far, several themes are emerging, and I think that it is wonderful that the bros. have been able to tap into the traditionally literary elements of symbolism and allegories. Just think about the symbolism of the River and the shore in "The adventures of Huckleberry Finn," or the sybolism of the A in "The Scarlet Letter" For hose of you who don't know what I am talking about check your cliff notes. The themes presented in the matrix and Reloaded are every bit as valid as those in either of those books. They should not be discredited just because they are in film. I think it is great that a pair of writer's have been able to make a movie that can adequetly compete with literature in terms of substance and analysis. Does this mean that I am comparing the Wachowski's to Twian or Hawthorn. Well, not yet, not until I see it finished, not until I see that they come full circle with their ideas. However, the wide bevy of conversations listed at this and many other sites is a testimate to the provocative nature of their films. With this said I would like to consolidate into a list what I think are some of the major themes of the movies thus far. Of course fell free to point out those that I missed and be aware that many (probably all) have already been discussed on these pages.
First and most obvious is the problem of choice. Perhaps the most visible of the themes, choice is approached not just what should be done, but a question of whether or not we have the right (power) to make choices, and if so do we make choices in the moment or have we already made them.
Second, equally apparent as choice, and closly related is the idea of causality. Causality, presented by the merovingian is the only constant law. thus choice is irrelevant given that every choice is just a reaction to an action. The debate is over the amount of truth in the Merovingian's words.
Next, also quite obvious from the conversation between the counserlor and Neo is the problem of control. The film tries to deal with the definition of control. Is control the same as power. This issue on the surface deals with the humans' relationship with machines, but as discussed later, i think it can mean much more.
Another surface ideal presented in the movie is that of purpose. During Smith's monologue we find the crux of this matter. What is the point of existence without purpose. This is where we can divulge from the obvious, the deeper meaning of the arguements presented. Purpose is the fundemental root of need. Quite a bit of what makes us human is our sense of belonging; of value. We have a need to feel needed, and without this we become void of human qualities. Talk to any psychologist and he/she will tell you that the best way to enusre your child becomes a monster (murderer, rapist, Creed fan, etc...)is to make sure he feels left out, unloved, and has no sense of belonging. This is what is happening to Agent Smith. With his newly aquire human characteristics coupled with his lack of purpose he has become a monster.
The question of what is wrong with living in the Matrix; the rebuttal to the statement that ignorance is bliss lies within the sense of purpose. Our beliefs and reality is a false pretense for our reason for existence. If only living a dream then we have no real purpose, or at least our intented purpose is not what it seems. Given this, if we stay vitic to the matrix, which applied in the real world the matrix can be viewed as our everyday routine, I think what the wachowski bros. are trying to get across is that it is neccessary to stop and think. Don't merely go along with the status quo because everybody else does. If ou stop and think, and you break out of facade you have built around yourself, and truly begin to experience life, then you stop being a victim of causality and you start living for your own choices. It is only once you are outside of the "matrix" that you can truly be free.
The ideas of control, purpose, choice, and causality are all interdependent on the status of the individual in question. I think that the Merovingian's speech gives insight into this idea. Causality rules unless the person chooses to follow thier own path. Until the end of the movie Neo & Co. were following the path laid before them and were the vitcitms of causality. Now, with Neo breaking the cycle, they are truly free and are the recipients of the power of choice.
On a completely side note, there are several other imlied underiding themes throughout the movies, I will merely list them since it is time for me to go to bed. I guess I will have to breifly dexcribe them given thier complexity. The first is the idea of whether or not we can truly trust our senses. This was a major theme in the first movie, and I think it holds true in the second. The next is the analogous nature of the christian elements of the movie. Sorry agnostics but they can't be denied. Neo & Trinity (New Trinity) Merovingian, Nebacanezzur (sp?), Seraph (the guardian of the oracle much like the guardian angels the Seraphim (sp?)) there are way to many references to be a coincidece. "you're my saviour man, my personal Jesus Christ" remeber that from the first one? How about Neo death and rebirth....Sorry I got off on a tangent there. There are other religious theme such as what I believe to be a Zen concept of the interdependence of man and machine (Yin & Yang anyone...The deeper question of whether or not life is a dream. This idea could complement the idea that in the christian analogy the matrix is the world, and Zion is heaven, and it is only when we are saved the world/matirx that we can reach Heaven/Zion. however, this christian ideal is supplemented by the terrevadha buddhist principle of self salvation. (the mousy kid "saved himself' he found neo not the other way around, which would be contrary to a christian view of a seeking Christ).
As you can see the Matrix series has a wide array of symbolic, representational themes. The critics have just been silence, for there does seem to be some order to the ideas presented. Also it is clear that I have way too much time on my hands, I feel better that I got this all out of my system, so thats about it. I apologize for the length, the spelling errors, and the parts that don't make sense. I hope you guys found this a little interesting. Let me know.
-Brent

IP: Logged


This topic is 20 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20 

All times are ET (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | http://www.filmfodder.com

Filmfodder.com. All Rights Reserved. Don't steal our stuff.

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.45c

Coming Soon: The Filmfodder Newsletter! Click Here to Sign Up for Free

Home | News | Movies | Forums | Newsletter | About Us

2000-2005, Filmfodder.com. All Rights Reserved. Don't steal our stuff.