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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
Jebus
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posted 05-23-2003 08:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jebus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not sure if this already mentioned(I haven't read all 11 pages yet), but it's my theory.

I beleive that Neo's defiance of the architect combined with his link with Agent Smith.

I do not beleive the MiM theory.

I also do not beleive that Neo is a program. The architect said that there is always an anomaly (the One) when the matrix is redesigned. The Matrix and the programs within then guide the One back to the source. Once there he re-enters the source and the architect changes the program to prevent that secific anomaly.

Here's where I may get a bit far-fetched. I'm sure some of you have heard that vaccines for the common cold are a bad idea. Why? Because by attempting to destroy the bacteria, you will only mke it stronger. Through mutation, the bacteria will become immune to the vaccine and become stronger. So, by continuing to vaccinate, you will eventually create a potentially lethal "super-cold." Who's to say this is not what has happened to Neo? Perhaps the machines have inadvertently created a super-human in their attempts to control the humans.

Just a theory...

I do also beleive that Smith poses the greatest threat to both man and machine. So, I think we will see an alliance of sorts between the citizens of Zion and the machines, or at least the programs within the Matrix.

[This message has been edited by Jebus (edited 05-23-2003).]

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cfol
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posted 05-23-2003 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a thought from reading various posts...

The previous 'ones' presumably had the same abilities as Neo, i.e. to manipulate the code of the matrix. They all went back to the source... can they still influence the matrix as a consciousness? Or in disseminating what they have learned are they as a being effectively deleted? May have been mentioned that they were 'deleted' but I missed it. If not, are they already present in the matrix as characters we've seen... or if not, can they return from the source..?

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scarmouth
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posted 05-23-2003 09:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SCHEME:
Why does my copy have to be illegal? I could just have manager access to a theater.

You have a copy? Warner Bros gave you a copy? hahaha!!!

A secretary with photographic memory? Why is she working for you?

My appologies for taking down the manager of a theatre that made possible the movie over the net for millions.

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wyllder
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posted 05-23-2003 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wyllder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wanted to post some new thoughts I had on why humanity might be the ones behind the creation of the matrix and not the machines:

->What if, after screwing the planet up via a holocaust or whatnot, our resources were such that we could not support the population via conventional resources? Humanity is facing mass starvation. Society has deteriorated into near total anarchy. The surface of the planet is blanketed by radiation with a half-life of thousands if not millions of years. We risk losing a great deal of technological advances we have gained. The Matrix isn't a retreat from reality but rather an attempt to preserve humanity in a self-sustaining system until the planet is habitable again. We create machines to be the safekeepers of the sytem and to run the day-to-day functions so that some day, when the planet is ready, we can wake up and rebuild.

The biggest problems I have with simply accepting the general premise as it's presented in the movie:

1. If the machines are so creative as to have imagined and built the matrix in the first place, why would they take the risk of allowing any humans to exist outside of the matrix? Sure, you can say that we are contained and controlled, but those controls are inherently less than they would be if those humans were plugged in. If you accept that the machines were creative enought to envision and build the matrix in the first place, then they certainly should have been creative enough to simply re-create Zion as a higher level of the same system, granting them complete control of all variables.

2. I find Neo's manipulation of the Sentinels and Agent Smith's occupation of Bane require far too much in the way of mental acrobatics to accept in the context of Zion's being in the real world. These events are more easily explained by MiM theories.

Wyll-

[This message has been edited by wyllder (edited 05-23-2003).]

[This message has been edited by wyllder (edited 05-23-2003).]

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Revolution
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posted 05-23-2003 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Revolution     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think wyllder´s theory fits very well but doesnt explain the sense of neo !

What really bothers me is why they have to destroy Zion every time and then bulit it up again ! And the there are some people how will bulit up Zion again - they will know about the truh so why dont they tell it to the people of zion ?

There is a second matrix becuase in Matrix 1 a MACHINE puts Neo in that flush when he stands up from his cave. Why dont they just plug him in back or kill him ?
Why áre the machines linked with the humans ? they could built up batterys ! Do they have a secure code from the humans - that would fit wyllder`s theory !

And I think very important are emotions like LOVE - Persephone says she doesnt know anymore what love is ! But then knows it - she is an unplugged programm so must be Neo .

Someone here mentioned that device Smith send to Neo - I thought the meeting at the beginning was in the matrix and one ship stayed to wait for the oracle`s message.

If their is a second matrix what sense has it got that smith copies himself into bane ? he would be in another matrix -> so no help for him - must be some duell with Neo or Symbiosis ....


And please remember - they won´t make it that complicated because it´s a movie for every people and it´t would be too hard too understand for the most of people. so the most trvial theory will win ;-) !

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wyllder
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posted 05-23-2003 10:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wyllder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmm..

Revolution said, "I think wyllder´s theory fits very well but doesnt explain the sense of neo !"

Not sure what you mean. What exactly is the "sense of neo"?

If you let me know I'll see if I can fit it in

I do like the point about Zion's history. If we accept what the Architect tells us, then why is there no history of this held by the people of Zion? Again, if Zion exists within the Matrix, the answer is easy: the memory of past Zion's is erased.

Wyll-

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Enigma
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posted 05-23-2003 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Enigma     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As one who has been freed from the Matrix, it is with great interest that I have read all the various speculations about, "what does it all mean?"... Is NEO human? Are there 2 Matrixes - more? Who is the Architech - why is he seen as a "human" and not as a "Super-Mainframe?"
Many of you are to be commended for some "deep" thoughts regarding this "puzzle".
However, don't you find it incredibly interesting that a couple of (previously almost obscure)"Comic-book" writers were able to create such a compelling and complex world of possibilities - especially, as they have reported, virtually "right on the spot ... with no prior thoughts, ideas or planning"?

Are the Brothers "W" true geniuses, who have given us a new glimpse of reality, as it might seem, or did they simply stumble upon a fantastic concept, that happens to work?
Because some time remains before the "M-3" is to be unveiled, there's no urgency in answering all these questions ... immediately. Besides, providing the answers now would prevent others from posting their thoughts.
Caution - in seeking answers, first find out all you can regarding the Brothers "W"... How "computerized" is their thinking? What is their philosophical background - from which the framework of the Matrix was created?

I leave you with this to consider...
BUT DON'T READ ANY FARTHER, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO RISK HAVING THE "ENDING" POSSIBLY SPOILED!...

From all that has been revealed, including many of the proposed theories submitted by serious Matrix disciples, it is highly probable that M-3 will end with "NEO" being awakened, as a text message appears on his monitor...
"WAKE UP NEO.. YOU HAVE FOUND THE MATRIX.. THEY ARE COMING AFTER YOU.."
(Remember the opening scene in Matrix-1?)

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reload me
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posted 05-23-2003 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for reload me     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please reply to this message and give a good argument on how this theory is not the right one, other than the love/sex stuff because I think that was put in the movies to attract the female audience.

Theory on The Matrix
The Matrix trilogy takes place inside a computer that has a hard drive, multiple programs and files and an operating system. The world as we know it (Earth-like matrix) is a complex program and the “Real World” (Zion) is the operating system because it is the operating environment for the earth-like Matrix. We have yet to see the actual real world because everything in the first two movies takes place in the computer.

Neo is having code downloaded to him (from the actual real world programmer, but through the Oracle’s cookie, candy, etc…) to fend off Agent Smith, the other agents, and the Sentinels who are looking to destroy the computer permanently. When Neo met the Architect, he was given the option to reboot the machine and start over again (just as the 5 previous One’s have done it) until the computer is threatened again, but Neo chose the option to try and defeat the agents and Sentinels and save Trinity.

The Characters
· Neo - is an effective anti-virus program put on the hard drive of the computer. In the first movie he was given code (via Oracle cookie) to defeat viruses in the Earth-like matrix. In the second movie he was given code (via Oracle candy) to defeat viruses on the operating system (“Real World” – Zion), as evidenced by Neo stopping the Sentinels in the “Real World”.
· Agent Smith and other agents – are effective viruses put on the hard drive to corrupt and destroy files and programs. However, in the second movie Agent Smith has been coded to infect the operating system with viruses as well as the hard drive, as we will see in Revolutions through Bane and also replicate himself (indicative of a virus).
· Sentinels - are effective operating system specific viruses that can destroy files and programs on the operating system (the “Real World”).
· Oracle – Code building program.
· Keymaker – portal program.
· Merovingian – Corrupt program created by virus creating programmer.
· Architect – Operating system program that enables rebooting of the computer.
· Trinity, Morpheus, and Nebuchadnezzar (non-Zion) crew – Older versions of anti-virus programs.
· People of Zion – files on the operating system.
· Counselors of Zion – Primary operating system programs
· People on Earth-like Matrix – files on hard drive
· Ghost twins – A virus hoax which is why they can’t be killed by an anti-virus program.

Predictions for Revolutions
Neo goes back into the Matrix to get a snack from The Oracle to download more anti-virus code (correlated with DAT files for anti-virus software). In the end, Neo will succeed in defeating all of the viruses and saving all of humanity (prevent total system crash), with his new updated code. I doubt we will ever get to see the real world in this series. The entire trilogy will entirely take place in a computer that has viruses, and anti-virus programs.

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snyper
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posted 05-23-2003 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for snyper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello all,


This is an advice to all of you out there who is trying to figure out what will happen, or what is happening or what happened. Watch the animation Animatrix. It will help alot in uncovering some thruth in the movie and clear a lot of doubt. That is all for now.

Oh and I do like the idea of Human's own mistake and we have to force ourselves into a deep sleep (forgot who posted that). It sounds possible. Oh well. Good night. All I hope Revolutions wont end up like how X-files always end thier episodes!

Cheers,
snyper

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W33N
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posted 05-23-2003 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for W33N     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Enigma, You are a friggin Fruitcake. But you're idea is very probable becuase the irony of it all. Much like 1984 (read this book Matrix Fans, its by George Orwell). Again, you are a freak. Get a life. You're not part of the Matrix, but you may be right.

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scarmouth
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posted 05-23-2003 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The war REALLY IS over as of NEO entering the chamber.

The 23 he picked?

How about the survivors of what I presume is the last hovercraft.

eh?

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Revolution
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posted 05-23-2003 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Revolution     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ahmm.. why do you all talk about NEO being a anti-virus program ?
You have to consider that this is not a movie for all the freaks out there. its a mainstream movie (because 1 was a great success) ! It has to be more easy to understand than all these wired theories. I hope everything will be explained in 3 and not that the things told in 2 are not necessary.

--> as to Neo
Why do you need "The One" why just like let the "1%" fight and fight and fight in the 2nd matrix ? like a loop ?
He is a Anomalie as the Archtect says so why can they control an ANamolie (is it anamolysis in english ? ;- ) )? is he just an possible option from a mathematic system that only occurs in 25 yeras or so ? because there were 5 like him before . what happened to them ? didn they have a trinity and didnt the feel emotions ? because this is new - that programs feel emotions because Neo is half human - like a symbosis - i mean the robots want to develop too !


And I have to ask again :
In 1 you see one of these robots unlock Neo to these flush things ! Why should the robot do this if he is not sure that Neo is going to be flushed in aanother matrix.

WHHHHHHHHAT IS THE REEEAL WORLDDDD ???? I CANT IMAGINE !!! MY MIND IS FULL OF SHIT !
HELPPPP !

[This message has been edited by Revolution (edited 05-23-2003).]

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Revolution
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posted 05-23-2003 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Revolution     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
a friend of mine asked me a few minutes ago : Why dont the machines stop diggin to zion if they can reboot the system -> neo is a danger - > reboot
he also said that at the end Smith has a device and in the rest of the movie he does not (because hes unplugged).
??

Why is Smith transferring himself into THE SECOND MATRIX (or reality *g*) ? Whats the sense behind that ?
Why is he giving neo a device ? to contact him ? or was is just a symol ?

[This message has been edited by Revolution (edited 05-23-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Revolution (edited 05-23-2003).]

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Malrix
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posted 05-23-2003 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All of you are just going in circles...
Why Neo this...
Why Smith that...
Why Zion this and that...

All of it is just speculations. Just wait till the darn movie will come out and all your questions will be answered.

See you'all in November.

....darn, I'll be married by then...

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reload me
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posted 05-23-2003 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for reload me     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malrix:
All of you are just going in circles...
Why Neo this...
Why Smith that...
Why Zion this and that...

All of it is just speculations. Just wait till the darn movie will come out and all your questions will be answered.

See you'all in November.

....darn, I'll be married by then...



Isn't the point of a forum to discuss ideas. In fact definitely part of what I have come up with is derived from this forum.

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Casper314
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posted 05-23-2003 05:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I especially like the idea put out by wyllder that humans themselves have originally created the matrix to protect and preserve humanity.

I also agree with the whole computer/software model, but I think this is just symbolism or metaphore.

I'm beginning to think that the Oracle is the central character here. Why did she attempt to alter Neo's choice by encouraging love with trinity?

Here's a theory I'm developing... Several of the characters we've seen are previous Ones, including the 1st One, the Architect. Each of these Ones have a different feeling about whether the matrix should continue, not unlike all of us on this board. The Architect feels very strongly that the matrix should continue. Other Ones aren't so sure, including the Oracle who, as a previous One, feels duped by it all and wants the matrix to end. The Merovingian is bitter because he feels he didn't really have any choice.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

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wyllder
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posted 05-23-2003 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wyllder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I really hope the ending of the third movie isn't Neo waking up at the beginning of another cycle...

Man, that would suck.

I mean, it's not as though the concept has the "legs" to keep going for another 3 movies.

I really doubt this is how it's going to play out, though. After all, most of us accept that there have been 5 previous "Ones". So, if this cycle has already happened 5 previous times, why would the W-Brothers choose to put this particular cycle into film? The only logical reason I can think of is because this cycle grants surcease to the cyclic process itself.

Wyll-

[This message has been edited by wyllder (edited 05-23-2003).]

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Casper314
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posted 05-23-2003 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wyllder:
I really hope the ending of the third movie isn't Neo waking up at the beginning of another cycle...

I'm thinking that maybe the next movie will *begin* with Neo waking up to another cycle. In fact, maybe lots of cycles will occur in the next movie, hence the name Revolutions.

I'm picturing splintered scenes where Neo meets the architect several more times and he says things like "The matrix is older than you know, this is the 7th (8th, 9th) emergence of The One"

Okay, so I don't really believe this. In fact, just the opposite. When Neo says "I hope we don't meet again" and the architect responds "We won't", I think this means that Neo has made a different choice than previously which means that the cycle has (or is about to) end.

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Jebus
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posted 05-23-2003 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jebus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just finished playing Enter the Matrix (awesome game) and I thought I should let you know something in case you aren't all game freaks. At one point Niobe talks to the Oracle and she tells Niobe that because Neo touched the source, his mind has been separated from his body, and he is trapped between the real world and the matrix (or the matrix and the other matrix, if that's what you beleive) and the only one who can save him is Trinity.

This doesn't really answer anything, just didn't want you guys to miss out on anything.

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no. 47
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posted 05-24-2003 01:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cfol:
Just a thought from reading various posts...

The previous 'ones' presumably had the same abilities as Neo, i.e. to manipulate the code of the matrix. They all went back to the source... can they still influence the matrix as a consciousness? Or in disseminating what they have learned are they as a being effectively deleted? May have been mentioned that they were 'deleted' but I missed it. If not, are they already present in the matrix as characters we've seen... or if not, can they return from the source..?


Remember when neo had that conversation with the oracle at the bench...she said something about time being irrelevant-because “he has the gift of sight now” (or something of that nature)…Now, if Zion has been destroyed five times and at each time the One reaches the architect is a Keanu/or an Anderson/ or a Neo then time would be irrelevant. What is the probability of all of them looking alike/ experiencing almost the same sequence of events that lead them to the architect? Small. Unless that is, they were all him. But how can this happen? These are two probable theories I have concerning that:

1)Neo is a program,(or in the process of becoming one) who’s function is to disseminate information into the mainframe after each iteration (after rebuilding Zion for the nth time) so that the architect may evolve from each iteration and thus try to build a better matrix in the sense that it is more controlled then the previous matrices. But on the 6th time he chooses to save trinity instead of the salvation of the human race.
2)Neo is a human, who like the other humans in Zion, are unconsciously UNAWARE that they are in a second matrix. And each iteration of the matrix are just a system of control so that minds won’t be consciously aware or wake up in the real world,…until that is Neo manages to save trinity in the matrix on the 6th time leading them into the sequences of events of escape from the Nebucchakanezzer (why else would the oracle ask Neo if he can see trinity die?). Then Neo after his coma realizes that his special powers from stopping the sentinels aren’t possible in the real world (unless the special connection between agent Smith and him has some relevance to it), thus awakening him into the real-real world or awakening in Zion and becomes consciously aware of a second matrix …Perhaps the other five predecessors failed to save trinity, and their sequences of events leads them to die in the ship, hence resulting in the prophecy not being fulfilled and the extinction of the human race in Zion. W/c leads in rebooting the matrix and another iteration. But if on the 6th time he is still alive, then the prophecy can still be fulfilled and the salvation of mankind can still be saved

* Also the architect says that “Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.”…How can this be so if there aren’t any broadcasting in Zion? How can the extermination of Zion sever the connections from people in the matrix? Unless there is more then one matrix involved.

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no. 47
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posted 05-24-2003 01:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I’ve been reading posts here about the Architect mentioning something about 99% of subjects choose to accept the matrix while 1% denies it. Did he really refer it to the matrix?. From what I heard and understood, I thought he was referring to test subjects who sought answers from the oracle. This is the line concerning that to support my idea:

Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice...even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster

* note that test subjects “accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice…even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level”…he said “a choice…and THE choice”…If 99% from the matrix were subdued to this program then wouldn’t it be more rational to specificity the number of choices the test subjects would be making in the matrix. Because one subject from another may vary in data… the oracle is the intuitive program for the human-psyche as the architect so puts it. Mathematically, it makes sense since that maybe only a handful people sought their destiny to be told… “while a minority [of the 1%] of that left uncheck will cause an escalating probability of disaster.” I think he refers to the One and the five other predecessors.

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loki
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posted 05-24-2003 05:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:

* Also the architect says that “Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.”…How can this be so if there aren’t any broadcasting in Zion? How can the extermination of Zion sever the connections from people in the matrix? Unless there is more then one matrix involved.[/B]



Because in the Real world the machines could just physically destroy Zion. No need to unplug anybody. Just send sentinals and kill everybody. Your argument does not support the second Matrix theory.

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Revolution
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posted 05-24-2003 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Revolution     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
why should merowinger be the first or one of the ONES ???
Is there something that proves it ?

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Revolution
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posted 05-24-2003 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Revolution     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
becuase he sees the things like neo ????

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Revolution
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posted 05-24-2003 12:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Revolution     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
....ahm doesnt the matrix need to have a tragic ending (like neo cant come with trinity in the real world) because there are so much greek names (neo morpeheus persephone) and greek storys are always tragic

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BishoP
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posted 05-24-2003 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BishoP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
{{An intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its Mother.}}
What are the odds that Persephone, the Marvidgian's wife, is the program that the Architect spoke of. The program was created to explore the human psyche, which is composed largely of emotions, including love. She wanted to sample the love that Neo had for Trinity with the kiss. I truly believe there was more to that than just a woman scorned looking to feel love again, if only for a moment. Perhaps with the kiss, she was uploading information into Neo throught the freshly applied lipstick, much like the Oracle's cookie and candy. Or, if my theory is right, she may have been downloading data from Neo in regards to the emotion, love, which she was originally created to do. Kind of far fetched, but who knows. Doesn't really matter anyway.

(I accidentally posted this as a new topic instead of a reply. Can someone delete it?)

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system_matic
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posted 05-24-2003 03:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for system_matic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well I saw reloaded yet again. and it seems to me a lot of people are trying to read to deep into the movie. like someone else said it is a mainstream movie. the answers to almost all you question are right there on the surface. also Neo does not eat that piece of candy the Oracle gives him. it is still in his hand at the end of their converstation and then agent smith comes in right when the Oracle leaves. and when Neo stops the sentinals it is not an EMP blast. it doesn't even look anything like it. it looks more like when he stops the bullets. it just looks like they run into a wall and just break down and break apart. another thing that i tried to look for was the fights between the agents and the characters. someone said "it looks like anyone can beat the agents" so not true. New fought 3 in the beginging and he just flew away at the end of the fight, he didn't destroy them. Morpheous on the trailer fought one and he was getting his butt kick. Morpheous got lucky when Naobi helped him and Morpheous suprised the agent from behind to knock him off the trailer, but once again the agent was not destroyed. and there was the fight between Trinity and the 2 agents. she too was getting her butt kicked and she dove out the window to try to escape (i would have thought that would have killed her anyways) and they ended up almost killing her if it wasn't for Neo. and again those 2 agents were not destroyed. The only thing i can not seem to understand is the converstation between Neo and the Architect, just really blows my mind. so if anyone goes to see the movie again, go in there thinking nothing.
Did anyone notice who Trinity was fighting in the Revolutions trailer. The one who had a blindfold on. Cause that was not Neo.

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Cynic
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posted 05-24-2003 07:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First time posting, so bare with me. (As if posting here for the first time, inhibits me from sounding intelligent).

I've been reading through these posts and must say, this is the first site containing sincere (and highly intellectual) speculations for the Matrix Trilogy.

To call the Wachowski brothers geniuses is an understatement. I mean, look at us here. We are all trying to 'figure out' what the W brothers have in store for us. What a compliment to them. I wonder what they are going to do after Revolutions.

Now, I have seen The Matrix over 30 times, Reloaded 4, beat the game twice and saw 4 out of the 9 Animatrix shorts. I am definitely not a Matrix expert, but I figured I would give my 3 cents.

With that said, on to my questions/sepculations/theories:

1. I am having a hard time grasping the concept that there are 2 Matrixs'. I think it goes against the whole concept of the trilogy, humans against machines, hopefully ending in a 'Revolution' by the humans. If Zion was a second Matrix there would be no need for 3 movies to tell the story. The story could be told in one....Neo figures out he's the one, then he figures out it doesn't matter, it was all a big trick...the end. Hopefully, it doesn't take that path, it would be a disappointment.
But then again Neo did stop the Sentinals in Zion, and Seraphone did kiss Neo and up-or-download something. But in the game, she kisses both Ghost and Niobi, which tells me she isn't downloading anything, probably uploading information of some sort.

2. Now I read a couple posts saying that the agents are a virus. I always thought they were a more like an anti-virus programmed to moderate the resistance to the machines. The matrix needs some sort of resistance inorder to make it unperfect, but the agents are there to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. But what is Smith's deal. Does he just have a vendetta against Neo or is there something more to it?

3. Being the 'mother' of the Matrix, wouldn't the Oracle know a little more about what is going on? She is there, and protected by Seraph, to help 'The Ones' path. Being that she has done this 5 times now, why doesn't she just tell Neo what to do, and what not to do. Instead of making him figure it out. Just a little confusing to me.

4. The Architect. My favorite part of the story, and the most difficult to understand. Were the 5 before Neo, actually Neo, or just a whole different cast filling the roles of the ones we know now?

Now maybe I made some sense, I probably didn't though, but I would really appreciate some responses or criticizims to my questions.

Later,
Cynic

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jinxDC
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posted 05-24-2003 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jinxDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by reload me:
[B]Please reply to this message and give a good argument on how this theory is not the right one, other than the love/sex stuff because I think that was put in the movies to attract the female audience.

Why, because the female audience can't appreciate the down right damn amazing movies by the W brothers that make you think and re-awaken our curiosity into life and the human condition? We need sex and skin and dancing? I thought that was for the men... LOL. Just razzing all the guys out there - from one female who has recently bought too many philosophy books to feed her mind....

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Cynic
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posted 05-24-2003 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The sex scene, while a little slow to watch served a purpose. It got across the 'Love' that Trinity and Neo shared. We need to know how deep this is to understand why Neo makes the choice he makes in the mainframe. If he didn't love Trinity, saving the human race would have been a no brainer. And the rave scene was just to let us know that the people of Zion have alot of emotion in them, as do we. The last free city, on brink of destruction, and they are still dancing and enjoying themselves......what makes them human.

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Cynic
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posted 05-24-2003 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
O yeah, what was with the spoon that Smith/Bane gave Neo?? Anyone.......?

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Casper314
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posted 05-24-2003 08:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cynic - You make some great points that I'd like to comment on...

quote:

1. I am having a hard time grasping the concept that there are 2 Matrixs'. I think it goes against the whole concept of the trilogy, humans against machines, hopefully ending in a 'Revolution' by the humans. If Zion was a second Matrix there would be no need for 3 movies to tell the story. The story could be told in one....Neo figures out he's the one, then he figures out it doesn't matter, it was all a big trick...the end. Hopefully, it doesn't take that path, it would be a disappointment.


After this movie, I have more than enough trust to be sure that whatever is in store for me in the final movie, it will be wonderful. I'm just not concerned. Without the fear of the story ending poorly, it's easy to accept that there maybe 2 matrix's.
quote:

2. Now I read a couple posts saying that the agents are a virus. I always thought they were a more like an anti-virus programmed to moderate the resistance to the machines. The matrix needs some sort of resistance inorder to make it unperfect, but the agents are there to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. But what is Smith's deal. Does he just have a vendetta against Neo or is there something more to it?


This anti-virus or virus analogy that we're using is hard to get your head around. Understanding who's the virus and who's the anti-virus is actually central to what you think the story is about. Some definitions:

Virus: A computer program that replicates on computer systems by incorporating itself into shared programs.

Anti-Virus: A computer program that scan a computer's memory and disk drives for viruses or for code suspected of being a virus.

From the viewpoint of the machines, humans are the virus. From the viewpoint of the humans, machines are the virus.
Its just perspective.

Regarding Smith, I'm not sure why he's continually trying to stop Neo. Maybe that's his nature and he can't do anything else. Or maybe since Smith is now "free" he's just protecting his way of life and trying to keep Neo from harming it.

quote:

3. Being the 'mother' of the Matrix, wouldn't the Oracle know a little more about what is going on? She is there, and protected by Seraph, to help 'The Ones' path. Being that she has done this 5 times now, why doesn't she just tell Neo what to do, and what not to do. Instead of making him figure it out. Just a little confusing to me.


Yes, she does know more about what's going on, but she's powerless to force a result. Seems to me she's fine tuning what she does in order to convince Neo to make the choice he makes.
quote:

4. The Architect. My favorite part of the story, and the most difficult to understand. Were the 5 before Neo, actually Neo, or just a whole different cast filling the roles of the ones we know now?


I think the answer is both. While the 'Ones' that came before were Neo (and company), they were earlier versions and may have been somewhat unrecognizable as the refined programs we know now. Some members of the gang (morpheus, trinity) might not have even been part of the original programming until introduced in later versions so as to augment and refine the programming.

All this discussion about the software/programming/debugging/QA process seems like it may or may not fit. I guess it can't be symbolism exactly because the story admittedly discusses that some of the characters (i.e., the Oracle) are really just programs and they aren't human.....

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Cynic
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posted 05-24-2003 09:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Casper,
On your point on The Oracle being a program, many people believe that Neo is a program also, I on the other hand do not believe so....I posted my thoughts on this in another topic but I'll copy it here for you....give me your thoughts on this...

I personally believe and hope that Neo is not a program.
How would a non-human, a program, be able to experience love. Seraphone(not a program) longs for love because she hasn't had it in a long time. Merovingian, her other half, obviously isn't showing her love right now, (which is why she longs for it) however he used to. She did say that Neo is alot like him.

I believe Merovingian was once 'The One', maybe in the first matrix, or second, and so on. Then, he was able to experience love, but now, that he is a program, he can not do so. If Neo were to follow the paths of the previous 5, he would probably end up a program similar to Merovingian.

To sum it up, all the 'programs', The Oracle, Merovingian, Twins, Agents, do not show an emotion for love. While all 'non-programs', Morpheus, Seraphone, Trinity, Neo, Niobi, Lock, do.

Maybe, maybe not. Who the hells knows......we all act like we will uncover the story before Revolutions come out.....it is fun tho....


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j.bellone
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posted 05-24-2003 10:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for j.bellone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, after watching the trailer from "Enter the Matrix" game (at the end of the game) I have alot more speculation on what will happen; and I also went to see the movie again.

I totally don't believe the dual matrix theory now, from the extended trailer (longer than the one at the end of the credits) from the game it proves that this is not true.

If you watch the trailer, you will see alot of fight scenes, none of which will give you much information except that it looks like the remaining humans plan an attack on the Machines. I believe the attack will be above ground while they are distracted below ground.

The part where it really starts to bring together the plots is where Neo says, "It ends tonight." with the fight scene between himself and Agent Smith.

In between of those clips of the scenes you see Niaboi say "Neo" (in a surprised tone) and Morpheous says (in disbelief) "He fights for us."

I can't really make a good speculation on what these two statements are, but for some reason I think that Morpheous is talking about Neo.

Here's a breakdown of the scenes:

Opening: Some dude and Niaboi in a ship (?)

Dude: "What if they don't find us?"
Niaboi: "They will."
Dude: "How do you know?"
Niaboi: "I just know."
Dude: "What do you think will happen after that?"
Niaboi: "I don't know, but I got a feeling it's going to be one hell of a ride."

- Some type of structure blowing up, a bridge in Zion maybe.

- Alot of sentinels near flames

- Morpheous with akimbo machine guns (another lobby scene... maybe Club Hell)

- Serpah fighting some bald guy

- Trinity fighting some hooded guy

- Link running away from something

[background] "In less than twelve hours the machines will breach the dock walls." (sounds like Locke)

- Agent Smith laughing diabolically (no glasses... really crazy face!)

- Sentinels flying in flames towards something bright... looks like an opening at the end of one of the pipes

- Trinity (can't make out really, only half face... looks like her) kneeling on the ground looking up saying "Oh no"

- Dude with Niaboi: "Jigs up here they come" Niaboi: "Give me full power full systems."

- Someone shooting an RPG; looks like Link's wife next to him

- More sentinels

- Ship scene with Niaboi

- Tracer fire at some type of ship... looks like maybe on the surface of earth

- Niaboi cut: "Are we too late?"

- Cut of one of the ships floating up some pipe

- Neo and Smith scene (in the rain)

Smith: "Mr Anderson... welcome back... we missed you."

Neo: "It ends tonight."

- Niaboi: "Neo"

- Smith and Neo running towards eachother, with hundreds of Smiths on either side of them. Some sort of road (in the matrix?)

- Morphous... surprised... "He fights for us."

- Smith and Neo punch eachother... slow motion, both of them hitting at the same time and sending eachother back.

- Trinity in a Club Hell (?) shooting at something

- Looks like Agent Smith (or an agent) holding someone in a tunnel, with a bright flashing light towarding them

- Neo/Smith fighting

- Alot of little floaty things flying around... white machines perhaps. Something glowing in the middle.

- One of the mech warrior dudes fighting

- Trinity doing her flying kick thing onto that hooded dude

- Quick scene of Morpheous fighting

- Inverted scene of Morpheous fighting someone (looks like a lobby, probably Club Hell)

- Agent Smiths running up a staircase (overview) several of them with guns.

- Neo and Trinity kissing... =in the matrix=

- Seraph holding two handguns

- Some wierd guy with crazy eyes and alot of hair

- Club Hell scene with Trinity and Morpheous wiht guns, walking through a green laser thing (bunch of people in background)

- Subway train

- Agent Smith flying through a hole in a wall towards Neo, Neo jumping into the air to dodge

- Cut scene back go Niaboi and Dude

Dude: "Well, it's nice to have something to look forward to."

Niaboi: "Indeed it is."

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no. 47
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posted 05-25-2003 12:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loki:

Because in the Real world the machines could just physically destroy Zion. No need to unplug anybody. Just send sentinals and kill everybody. Your argument does not support the second Matrix theory.

-correct, but how will that effect the people still wired in the matrix if there's no broadcasting in Zion? SEntinals eradicate the people in Zion thus killing the people in the MAtrix? PLs explain?

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