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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
no. 47
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posted 05-25-2003 06:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How did agent Smith get into the hallways with many doors? Where did he get his key? Maybe from Merovingian?

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Othyem
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posted 05-25-2003 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Othyem     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by no. 47:
-correct, but how will that effect the people still wired in the matrix if there's no broadcasting in Zion? SEntinals eradicate the people in Zion thus killing the people in the MAtrix? PLs explain?

Neo not reloading the matrix will result in a system crash killing all those connected to the matrix and with that COUPLED with the attack on Zion will result in the extinction of the human race.

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bootylicious
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posted 05-25-2003 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bootylicious     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmm... here's something that I haven't seen discussed anywhere yet... ideas?

The machines keep people in their little pods as energy sources correct? So, now they have no energy source. The architecht claims they're willing to accept different levels of survival. So what "level of survival" will the machines fall back to now that there are very few humans left? Obviously they need a new energy source. Is that what all the digging is about (even after they destroy Zion?) Is this the machines going into some sort of hibernation period until people repopulate the earth?

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the_guess_who
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posted 05-25-2003 06:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_guess_who     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Matrix Theory, a branch of pure mathematics, introduced by Arthur Cayley in 1858, associated with the solution of systems of linear equations, which arise naturally in science, engineering, and social sciences.
An m × n matrix is an array of mn numbers arranged in m rows and n columns, and enclosed in brackets. For example,
are 2 × 3 and 3 × 2 matrices. The entries in a matrix can belong to various mathematical systems such as integers, rational, real, or complex numbers. The entry in the i-th row and j-th column of a matrix A is denoted by aij or (A)ij.
An m × n matrix stores mn pieces of information aij, indexed by two parameters i, j. For instance, if m countries each export n commodities, then aij could be the amount of the j-th commodity exported by the i-th country in a given year, so each row or column of A represents a particular country or commodity.
The need to manipulate this information leads to an algebraic theory in which the basic operations of arithmetic are applied to matrices. If A and B are both m × n matrices, their sum A + B is obtained by adding their corresponding entries, that is, (A + B)ij = aij + bij. For example,
The difference A - B is defined similarly by (A - B)ij = aij - bij. (Matrices of different shapes cannot be added or subtracted.) Thus if A and B represent exports for consecutive years, then A + B represents exports over the two-year period, and if C represents imports during the first year, then A - C represents net exports for that year.
If A is an m × n matrix, and B is an n × s matrix, their product AB is an m × s matrix with (AB)ij formed from the i-th row of A and the j-th column of B by (AB)ij = ai1b1j + ai2b2j + … + ainbnj. For instance:
In our export example, if D is an n × 1 matrix (or column vector) whose entries are the costs per unit amount of the n commodities, then AD is an m × 1 matrix whose entries are the values of the exports of the m countries.
A square matrix is an n × n matrix for some n. If A and B are both n × n matrices, then A + B, A - B, AB and BA all exist and are also n × n matrices. The algebra of square matrices resembles the algebra of numbers in many ways (though AB may differ from BA). For instance the n × n identity matrix I defined by:
satisfies IA = AI = A for all n × n matrices A, so it behaves like the number 1. Each n × n matrix A has a number called its determinant det(A): if n = 1 then det(A) = a 11, and if n > 1 then:
where Dj (called a minor of A) is the determinant of the (n - 1) × (n - 1) matrix formed by deleting the first row and the j-th column of A. If det(A) ´ 0 then A has an inverse matrix A-1 satisfying AA-1 = A-1A = I.
Simultaneous Equations
An important application of matrices is in the solution of simultaneous linear equations. Given m equations in n unknowns x1, …, xn, say
let A be the m × n matrix with (A)ij = aij (i = 1, …, m, j = 1, …, n), and let
The equations may be written in matrix form as AX = B, and solved (where possible) by manipulating this equation. For instance, if m = n and det(A) ´ 0 there is a unique solution X = A-1B.
Geometry
Matrices have important applications in geometry. A point in ordinary 3-dimensional space can be specified by 3 numbers the x, y, and z coordinates. This means that a point can be represented by a simple column vector and a set of points as a set of column vectors. Transformations, such as rotation around a point, reflection in a plane, and scaling can all be performed by the multiplication and addition of matrices. These procedures can be generalized to more abstract cases of n-dimensional space by increasing the size of the matrices involved.
Further Matrix Notation
The transpose, At, of matrix A is formed by interchanging its rows and columns, that is (At)ij = aji for all i, j. A square matrix is orthogonal if AtA = I.
The adjoint, A*, of a matrix A is formed by reversing the sign of any imaginary numbers in the elements of At (this is known as making the complex conjugate). A matrix is unitary if A*A = I. Unitary matrices are important in physics, specifically quantum theory, as they support conservation laws.

"Matrix Theory," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 99 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

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arn3696
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posted 05-25-2003 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for arn3696     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe there is a lot of scope for the thoery on neo being a program.

If data is passed to him by cookies, candy etc then the reason he has taken a different path on this cycle is because as others have pointed out, he does not actually eat the candy given to him by the oracle. The oracle also says that she knows whether or not he will choose to eat it.

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Aratatat-tat
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posted 05-25-2003 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aratatat-tat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The dual Matrix idea is the initial thought that i think you're supposed to come away with. It's got alot to back it up, as mentioned by other users - Neo stopping the machines in the "Real World", also, the fact that Agent Smith managed to cross over, suggesting that his existence can be supported by a similar environment / OS to the Matrix...

The scene with the Architect where he explains that it has all happened many a time before depicts that at the flick of a switch not only does the Matrix reboot, but also the "Real World" resets, so as it can happen all over again.. Just like another computer controlled environment.

But then, as in real life, the whole structure of the world as we know it was created by something, somehow ... (i'm not getting all sentimental now) ... And each and every particle has it's own position / axis in space, like a pixel on the screen, but on a more dimensional scale. Everything has attributes that contribute to colour, shape, taste, function, weight / gravity ..etc. I know i digress a little, but this is very similar to the design of a computer. So are you ever really free, even in the real world?..

Now for something a little less taxing, and possibly deliberately put right in front of our noses...
On screen, when portraying the "Real World", there appears to be no change in the colour. However, when they enter the Matrix the colour takes on a more green appearance, cleverly suggesting of course, a computer environment. This could mean that "Zion" is NOT another Matrix, as it does not take on this colour change.

Maybe this is just one way to help us separate the Matrix and the Real World. Or maybe, once the identity of the Real World is discovered to be another Matrix, it will also appear green.
But thinking back to the original Matrix movie, before Neo discovers he is inside a computer they were already rendering each scene in a green colour tweak.

I've read on this site that people think the 3rd instalment of the movie will not be too confusing or too in-depth. But realistically speaking, think of the money they make by adding a little confusion - It sends people running for a second helping of the movie, even more! Yes, maybe to catch the brilliant on screen effects another time, but also to try to decode what the hell everyone is talking about, or pick something up they may have missed before.

Anyway.. I think this may be getting so long now, that the beginning is already showing signs of erosion.
Many excellent views on this site, to an even more excellent movie.

[This message has been edited by Aratatat-tat (edited 05-25-2003).]

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stiletto
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posted 05-25-2003 11:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stiletto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Everyone,

I am new to this post, but I have been reading with some interest some of the theories floating around and wanted to add some of my own speculations. First, let me say, these are speculations, and I would certainly be interested to hear what everyone thinks about my ideas. Secondly, I have spent some time this morning looking at the official Matrix website and reading some of the philosophical concepts used in the making of these movies. I suggest everyone goes and has a look at these, because they shed some interesting light on many of the ideas that people have.

OK. So here are some theories that I have considered. First of all, Neo. There is talk that he is a program himself, but also arguments against that. I actually think that both ideas are true of Neo and the Architect himself says so. He says that Neo remains indelibly human, but says that as “The One” he is programmed to return to the source. Given that the machines can manipulate the minds of most humans to believe that the Matrix is reality, I don’t think it is unreasonable to think that they have the ability to imprint a form of programming on humans. This idea is also back up by the thought of Smith imprinting himself on other humans, but more on that later. So basically yes, I believe Neo is human at the core, but has been programmed to fulfill a purpose – understood thanks to the Architect.

Secondly, Zion. This is something that I have given a lot of thought to, and should outright say that I am a tentative believer in the Secondary Matrix theory, because thus far, nothing I have seen, Movies, Revolution trailers etc have disproved that theory, whereas there seems to be some strongish evidence pointing that way. Of course the most obvious of these are the Neo stopping the squiddies and Smith removing himself from the Matrix. But I think there are more subtle things that can provide evidence. First of all, the Oracle being aware of the content of Neo’s dreams, which he had out the “Real World”. How would the oracle know these things unless the outside world were somehow linked to the Matrix? Possibly she could have read his mind somehow while he was there talking to her, but it seemed that her knowledge was intimate and present before he arrived. Another point, when conversing with the Architect, scenes of Neo’s life since meeting Trinity appear in the background. These scenes are mainly actions undertaken in the Matrix , but a few of them are from the Nebuchadnezzar and Zion and are “Third Person” perspective, meaning that they couldn’t have been drawn from Neo’s own mind. How would the Architect have access to these images if he also was not connected to the “Outside” world? Lastly, Neo seems to sense when Agent Smith first gets “outside” the Matrix, given that thus far all of his abilities have been in the digital world, it seems unlikely that Neo could do this in the real world. As a small side-point also, in the short trailer following Reloaded (not in the Enter the Matrix conclusion trailer), we catch a glimpse of a horizon filled with Smiths (this is not scene where Neo fights Smith with all the others standing in rows), it is glowing white and over it hangs one of the Zion broadcast ships. As there are no Zion ships “in” the Matrix, it would seem plausible that this takes place “outside” in another Matrix.

However, there is a theory hinted at on the Official Site Philosophy pages that hasn’t really been sounded, but I think should be given some thought to. What if Zion is both, in the real world while at the same time a manipulated projection into the minds of those outside. Scientists now, have the ability to make people see things they are convinced are real, by manipulating electrical and chemicals signals made in the brain. What if those who are in Zion are still “somehow” connected to the Matrix, but still remain in the outside world. Thus they do live in a physical place called Zion, but much of the rest of their existence is a different form of hallucination and visual trickery used by the machines to make them believe that they are free and fighting for their survival.

I am still pondering this theory, but I do think it is worth thinking about.

Next, The Oracle. I think it is a misconception that the Oracle is the mother of the Matrix. The only information we have about that person comes again from the conversation with the Architect. He states that the “mother” was an intuitive program designed to study the intricacies of the human psyche. When Neo says “The Oracle” he is treated with disdain by the Architect. But if not the Oracle, then who? Who else seems to have an intuitive interest in the human psyche and the most fundamental building block of that psyche, love? None other than Persephone. By her own admission she has a driving curiosity about Love, and in fact admits to having experienced something like it a long time ago, only to have lost it. Perhaps it was upon intuitively experiencing this feeling a long time ago, it was Persephone who stumbled on the answer for the anomaly within the Matrix. So who is the Oracle?? The Merovingian hates her and passes on a threat to her. The Architect seems to have little respect for her and the Seraph protects her and claims to “Protect that which most important”. Does she really help the humans? Friend or Foe? Interesting questions, but I will post later on that………

Finally, Agent Smith. Herein lies the answer to all our riddles, but at the same time the puzzle of puzzles himself. Has Agent Smith been through this same experience in previous versions of the Matrix. I don’t think so. By his own admission, there is something different this time, he has been changed by Neo, taking on some of Neo’s programming himself. This has enabled him to change the nature of the Matrix including replicating himself, and even exiting the Matrix. The Oracle and the Seraph sense the danger he represents and leave quickly when he is coming. So what is it about him then? Well, the Architect claims that Neo is different from the others because of the nature of his love for Trinity. And it appears that change has affected Smith too, but hatred becomes the most basic of motivations for Smith. He hates humans. He hates the Matrix, he said to Morpheus that he wants to get out. But now it is worse for him, now he has even been stripped of his purpose, to regulate the Matrix and provide a tangible threat for those trying to escape. Perhaps he has realized that ultimately his whole existence is futile, the Matrix will be destroyed or Reloaded regardless of his programmed efforts to stop that happening. And thus I think he becomes the single biggest threat, to both human and machine.

Smith himself uses the virus analogy, and we certainly saw him reproduce himself like at infestation. I think those who have posted theories like this about Smith are dead right and just like a virus can destroy a computer system now, Smith threatens the survival of the machines, a fact seemingly only realized by the Oracle. But his hatred for the humans sees him determined to destroy them too. He has started on this path by foiling the humans attempts to stop the “destruction” of Zion, in the persona of Bane, but I think sooner or later, he will learn the rules of the outside, whether Matrix or something else (and much like Neo seems to be doing) and will represent a even bigger threat. “Revolutions” I think will be an apt title, the controlling forces over the Matrix (in whatever form) and the machine world are about to be thrown into disarray.

I realize this is a long post, but I think like everyone, I am reveling in having the chance to theorize about something that we will all understand in early November!

Thanks!

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Drevi1
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posted 05-26-2003 12:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Drevi1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not even gonna bother to read any of the following posts but just want to tell people that you're dumbasses who think that there are two or more matrixes or whatever, watch the damn Revolutions trailer. I believe there would be some obvious hint in there if there was. Most likely from the looks of it the Architect lied to Neo about all that crap because Zion wasn't destroyed and they are saving it in Revolutions. So everyone spare yourselfs the mental anguish and watch all the credits after Reloaded and watch the damn trailer or go here and download it and watch it: http://www.unclestupid.com/article1002.html

Have fun everyone and stop reading so far into things.

[This message has been edited by Drevi1 (edited 05-26-2003).]

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stiletto
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posted 05-26-2003 01:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stiletto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For those who ARE reading the rest of these posts - there are in fact TWO different Revolutions trailers. One at the end of the Matrix: Reloaded credits and the one posted by Drevi1 is the trailer at the end of the Enter the Matrix game. These two trailers have some similarities, but some differences also - some of which contain "obvious hints" as to the "What IT is".

Good on you everyone (well, most anyway) for A - Actually being OBSERVANT and INTERESTED in a good and thought-provoking story and B - taking the time to share your thoughts and ideas with everyone. The Wachowski's would be proud!

Keep those posts coming!

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no. 47
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posted 05-26-2003 01:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Othyem:
Neo not reloading the matrix will result in a system crash killing all those connected to the matrix and with that COUPLED with the attack on Zion will result in the extinction of the human race.

why would it be necessary for neo to reload the matrix if the main objective of the machines is to destroy Zion?

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stiletto
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posted 05-26-2003 01:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stiletto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Because, like any computer program, the longer it runs and more intensive it becomes, the higher the likelihood of it crashing. And in the case of the Matrix, this is no different, the longer it runs and the more people are being "freed" then the chance of a crash increases and if it were to crash then all of the humans trapped within would die, which would mean that the machines would lose their main power source.

As for Zion being destroyed, this is happening for a similar reason, the longer it goes, the more likely that someone in Zion would discover the real truth of whats going on and the machines have to destroy it before that happens. And this has to seem like a physical destruction, so that the "One" will make his decision to start Zion all over again. The more dangerous the threat to Zion becomes, the more pressure comes on the One to save mankind. For Neo, it is a choice between losing just Zion and losing humanity.

But the difference between Neo and the previous "Ones" is that their love was for mankind, so the choice was easy for them - lose Zion so mankind survives. For Neo, his choice is difficult, because if he loses Zion, mankind survives, but Trinity dies. Hence the decision he made......

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NeoMorph
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posted 05-26-2003 01:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think most of you can't see the forest for the trees. Also some of your memories of what happened in the movies(1 & 2) and the game are off a bit.
What you need to do is stick with the facts, and make sure that they are the facts. Fact number 1: Whatever was said in the first two movies COULD have been a lie. Try and expand your mind *freeing it* and make up your own ending to this movie. Don't let the W. brother's *control* your thinking about the outcome of the movie. Set outside your mind for a moment and just brainstorm.
And crying out loud, read up on some of the books that this movie is based off of.
Oh yeah, for you MiM people. Keanu Reeves said in an interview that this story was not going to be a matrix in a matrix. I am surprised that none of you knew of this.

Just think on this: The W. brother's have stated that no one will know about all the little *extra* mind teasers they put in the movie...(example Neo - move the last letter to the front - oNe). SOME of these are put here for show and some are put in for actual purpose.
Fact 2: No one, without insider info, will nail down what the third movie will tell us.

K-


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stiletto
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posted 05-26-2003 02:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stiletto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Neomorph, which interview are you referring to? Because some of us, as you rightly pointed out, have not seen/heard that. I would love to know where to find it.

I think it's safe to say that regardless of how the story turns out, all of us will be surprised, pleasantly or otherwise, as to the nature of all these things, as we learnt from the change in what we know from The Matrix to Reloaded. I personally, would be sorely disappointed if I really knew what was going on before I went in to see Revolutions and I am really enjoying hearing other people's ideas, regardless of the fact that we are all likely to be wrong. And if we are all wrong, then how much fun is it going to be to find out!

Forum - A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas; A public meeting place for open discussion.

I for one, am enjoying being in the dark with all these other people, with all of us looking for the match that will illuminate everything, and knowing we wont find it till November.

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mariosgr12
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posted 05-26-2003 06:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mariosgr12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alright, here is my theory on the character of Persephone:
I believe she is some sort of program, the role of which is still unclear to me. However, she feeds on human emotions: Monica Belucci in an interview stated that Persephone is smt like a vampire of emotions: she feeds on love (the kiss), but also on hatred, jealousy, anger, loathing (Trinity's reactions). This vampire theory ties in perfectly with the fact that the Merovignian's henchmen (the two "extremely notorious to kill") required to be shot with silver bullets to be killed, just like vampires. Also, the movie these two henchmen are watching when Persephone enters the room with Neo and the rest is, I believe "Nosferatu". It might also be some other film about Dracula, but the fact remains that it's about vampires.

Apart from the Persephone theory, can someone explain to me why, if the Keymaster was so important for the rebooting of the Matrix, why did the agents try to kill him? Without him, Neo wouldn't be able to enter the source. He wouldn't even have learned about the server-building!

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Finster
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posted 05-26-2003 12:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Finster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well i haven't read all of the posts here there are quite a few.

First off, the theme of the movie will not be anti-american and in some way it will strenghten or promote some aspect of western culture. This is what, afterall, movies are bound to in mainstream cinema. So we can rule out a lot of themes and outcomes of the movie. I doubt it's out to promote religion or christianity...

Theory 1:

The matrix, and everything that happenend could be just a different simulation for one person, say neo. and for each individual in the matrix, there is a completely different universe, and they do not interact ever with real-time players, but they always interact with programs.

Theory 2:
There were two versions of the matrix, it could be that one is what we percieve as viewers of the movie, zion and the underground, and the other which we think of as the matrix, as the old version of the matrix.
so the newer version is zion, the older is the city. loosely speaking. And afterall, morpheus said to neo, that he didn't like to "free minds" when they were to old, when in fact, he was freeing his body. morpheus could be a program as well.


Theory 3:
It could be the reverse case, that defectors or trouble makers end up choosing to goto the supposid, "real world", when in fact they have left the real world. morpheus was the beacon for neo. like what i said before, morpheus said "free mind" instead of "freeing body".

Theory 4:
It could be that humans have destroyed their own earth, and that in order to preserve mankind, they had to digitize themselves and live in a virtual world, and what is happening in the movie is a byproduct of being in that system. So that is to say there was no war between man and machine, but man used machine to escape the natural world where they could not survive from their polution, etc, or to just have a backup life incase you died in one.

Theory 5:
It could be an experiment to accelerate human intelligence, or to accelerate a computers intelligence.

Thats all for now! I hope someone has something to contribute to my post!

Finster

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wazoo
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posted 05-26-2003 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wazoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
message transported through the movie:

making the right or making the wrong choice!
choices based on love, hope, fear, hate, ...
due to a reason causing good or bad effects. and then the circle starts going round again!

- reflected in all of our live's!

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wazoo
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posted 05-26-2003 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wazoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AHH! I am so fucking austrian!
Excuse me! I ment:

reflected in all of our life's!

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wazoo
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posted 05-26-2003 12:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wazoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Forgot something!

Remember the thin line between our reality here and the conversation between the senator and neo in zion! Think this might be the end!

Thank you computer and thank you internet for giving me the possibility to talk here!
Without you it simply couldn't have happened!!!

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Das Eins
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posted 05-26-2003 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Das Eins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just have 1 ?. How is Neo able to fire an EMP out of his hand and fry those sentinals chips at the end of number 2?

Could he be a machine himself or what?

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RwD
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posted 05-26-2003 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I promised myself to read all posts, but I didn't, however I did see a trend for some idea's. some stuff is looked at wrong:

quote:
Originally posted by QuarkSong:
That said, the matrix-in-a-matrix wouldn't be plausible (but again, I won't put it past the writers to do the matrix-in-a-matrix). The 1% of the 1% is not actually correct, its much worse than that. When you use antibiotics to remove 99% of the germs in your body, the 1% remain are much more resistant, and you can't expect to wipe out 99% of the remaining 1% by another batch of antibiotics, thus the problem with overprescribing antibiotics.

The 1% who didn't accept the matrix are in Zion, and these people and their offspring are much more resistant. Ergo, many more than 1% in Zion would be able to detect flaws in the matrix-in-a-matrix scenario.


That would only be true if you give them the same environment. That doesn't happen, why would you try to get to the real world when you actually think you are in it. That is the point of the matrix itself. The people in Zion -if this is another matrix- believe they escaped the real matrix, and got into an actual (not virtual) world. They are now no longer that 1%, they became the 99% We cannot estimate what percentage in this -if so- second matrix will not accept the progamming. (But if you accept the theory, then we know Neo doesn't accept it any longer, so you could now make an estimate of the actual number) By now the number of people escaping the second matrix is so small that they can be killed by the sentinels if they exist in a real world...
=======================================

But that is if there is a zion-matrix
--------------------------------------
My thoughts:
(please note that I give thought in favor and against multiple theories regardless of what I think is the correct one)

0) Whenever I say "real world" that is whatever you want, I say zion-matrix if I refer to that specific theory (mostly when I have no other choice)

1) Neo's way of stopping the sentinels in the "real world" is different from his behaviour inside the matrix. Thusly zion lies not within a matrix, Neo did something new or they are not in the same world as zion but a simulation (unlikely)

2) There's no green filter used when neo stoppes the sentinels, green filter means matrix. Why use a green filter to indicate 'matrix' then later on say 'we just are not consistent'. (They were consistent in the 1st movie, even at the very beginning)

3) The architect doesn't say that Neo must "Go" to "The Source", he says very specifically that he must "RETURN TO" "The Source". RETURN TO, as in HE STARTED THERE. (quoted 'd2tw4all') So why return?

4) I can lie. So can you, Neo, the Architect and even Keanu!!

5) Merovingian states "I have survived your predecessors, I'll survive you too.". (quoted 'Soulman') That rules him out as an 'earlier Neo'. And Persephone as a trinity

6) To Further on (5): Why should the earlier "the One's" are similair to Neo at all? it is even more logical they didn't have a trinity as they didn't do the love-desicion-making (Architect: "While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific--vis a vie..love." So they did not have a Trinity, or they didn't have the same love at the very least).

7) Architect: "While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself." So he has no intention of leaving it unchecked, he either checked it (zion-matrix) or not yet checked it "real world".
With this I would like to point out you cannot say whether the '"real world" is virtual or not.

8) How comes that Morpheus suddenly stands a good chance against an actual agent (highway scene). Now, he did hold his stand fo a while in M1 against an agent, and you can always kick an agent from the truck. But the agents where updated.

9) If we can guess every plotline from these two movies, then what is the point in making a third? I thought of the zion-matrix theory after seeing M1 the first time. It does give clues to this end. But I discarded that theory after I put my finger on the green filter (I knew something was wrong before, the green filter rang a bell the second time I saw M1, before I didn't notice it wasn't there in the "real world")
I allready worked a plot out for the entire trillogy, I did that during seeing M2 (unconsiously I do that in my mind)

10) Try walking on a truck on a highway, now look at your hair and clothes. (don't forget the mirror ) Why didn't Morpheus or the agent have this, the have to obbey the standard rules. Or do they brake/bend this rule?

11) Try and find the Manga/Hentai movie 'UROTSUKIDOJI' got a lot of porn in it, but besides from that the idea is kind of like the matrix, only this movie is much older.
Overall plot: The overfiend creates three realms, one of them the human realm. 3000 years later the overfiend is reborn again.(and at the moment from conception is the mightiest being in any realm) The overfiend is unhappy with the human realm, destroys all, and builds new realms.
Most people are unaware they live the same live over and over again ever 3000 years, but those who do realize try to stop the overfiend, but die at it's incredible power (it isn't even born yet and it has the power to destroy the 3 realms)

12) I need sleep, got some noodle breaking points left for next time

[This message has been edited by RwD (edited 05-26-2003).]

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sky_wayz
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posted 05-26-2003 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sky_wayz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To mariosgr12's question on the keymaster.

Neo wouldn't have been able to have rebooted the matrix without the key master. That's what the machines want. They wanted Neo to go to the Architect. That's why the other ship was attacked. Not the Nebuchadnezzer or Niobe's. The machines wanted this to happen. The humans had no clue. So the machines had to find some way to motivate them to go to the Architecht. The machines never predicted him to choose the door to Trinity. So this screws up theiir entire plan. Because now, the humans have a chance to beat the machines.

And as to Persephone, I have read that she is a program inserted into the matrix to lure Neo away from Trinity. I gaurentee you she will have a larger role in revolutions.

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system_matic
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posted 05-26-2003 08:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for system_matic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
this was alreday discussed by me. Neo does not fire an EMP. It doesn't even look like an EMP. Watch it again and it will look like the sentinals just hit a wall.
quote:
Originally posted by Das Eins:
I just have 1 ?. How is Neo able to fire an EMP out of his hand and fry those sentinals chips at the end of number 2?

Could he be a machine himself or what?


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furiousgeorge
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posted 05-26-2003 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for furiousgeorge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mariosgr12:
Alright, here is my theory on the character of Persephone:
I believe she is some sort of program, the role of which is still unclear to me. However, she feeds on human emotions: Monica Belucci in an interview stated that Persephone is smt like a vampire of emotions: she feeds on love (the kiss), but also on hatred, jealousy, anger, loathing (Trinity's reactions). This vampire theory ties in perfectly with the fact that the Merovignian's henchmen (the two "extremely notorious to kill") required to be shot with silver bullets to be killed, just like vampires. Also, the movie these two henchmen are watching when Persephone enters the room with Neo and the rest is, I believe "Nosferatu". It might also be some other film about Dracula, but the fact remains that it's about vampires.

Apart from the Persephone theory, can someone explain to me why, if the Keymaster was so important for the rebooting of the Matrix, why did the agents try to kill him? Without him, Neo wouldn't be able to enter the source. He wouldn't even have learned about the server-building!



I know this may seem strange, but the answer may lie right in front of us. I just saw Reloaded for the second time.

The Architect says the solution for the original matrix design failing was stumbled upon by an intuitive program whose purpose was to investigate the human psyche. Neo interrupts him and exclaims "the Oracle". The Architect says "Please..." and continues on with his speech. Seeing it a second time, it seems pretty clear the Architect is telling Neo that his guess was wrong. The Oracle is not the mother of the matrix. It doesn't seem as though he says "please..." because Neo interrupted him, rather that Neo's guess was way off base.

That leaves Persephone as really about the only female program we are aware of from both movies. Unless we haven't met the 'Mother of the Matrix', I think it could be Persephone and it also makes sense given her interest in human emotions (love).

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furiousgeorge
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posted 05-26-2003 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for furiousgeorge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by system_matic:
this was alreday discussed by me. Neo does not fire an EMP. It doesn't even look like an EMP. Watch it again and it will look like the sentinals just hit a wall.

I would take it a step further. After seeing the movie a 2nd time, it clearly looks as though Neo simply has the power to stop the sentinels. He holds up his hand similar to when he stops bullets in the matrix. The sentinels basically suddenly stop as if they are being held by an invisible hand. Some lightning-type effect starts to spark through them and they finally just break apart into pieces and fall to the ground.

Definitely was not an EMP, it was Neo using a new-found power. I don't buy into the 2nd matrix theory, so in my opinion I think Neo is not just the one, he is the real One referred to in the prophecy. Not just the sixth One, but the final One that leads to defeating the machines. There are signs throughout the movie that Neo may be more powerful than any of the previous Ones. I don't know how Neo gains the ability to effect the machines in the real world, but apparently he develops it by either meeting with the architect or by the act of bringing Trinity back to life.

In M1, the oracle tells Neo either he or Morpheus will die. She was wrong. In M2, the Architect tells Neo that Trinity will die. He was wrong. Neo is the second coming of the original man born inside the matrix that had the power to reshape it as he saw fit. The previous 5 ones were simply the manifestation of the flaw or the anomoly in the matrix, with some extra special powers. Neo is The One referred to in the prophecy.

Ironically, at the end Neo tells Morpheus that the prophecy is a lie. But that's just Neo. He doesn't believe in any of this fate crap, remember?

So, Neo has the power to reshape the matrix AND now he has power over the machines in the real world. However, we know there is another whole movie to go so there must be another snag. The snag is Agent Smith who has become almost as powerful (or as powerful) as Neo. M3 will be about the struggle between Neo and Agent Smith/Bane for total victory.

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-27-2003).]

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zero
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posted 05-27-2003 12:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for zero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Im not sure if anyone has posted this yet, (maily due to the fact that im slowly reading through every last post) but I just realized something while watching the first Matrix this evening. Not that its groundbreaking or anything, but anyone notice in the first matrix when the agents captured Neo and they were about to drop the bug inside of him? Well if you look before the scence the lead into his by showing many TV screens of NEO sitting in a chair. Same TV screen seen with the Architect. Pretty interesting, didnt notice it until now.

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Brenson
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posted 05-27-2003 02:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brenson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know if anyone has come to this exact conclusion, but this regards the status of the council members being the 23 from the previous reload. I think that Councilor Hummond was the previous revolution's "One" and that the remaining council members were the others saved by him.

#1. Neo notes that there are no young council members. From my observations, there were no old humans period in all of Zion, except for the council members. This would also be a reason as to why they are people entrusted with the true secret of the "One", and what he must do.

#2. The council allows the Nebuchadnezzar to leave, so they can broadcast. This, to me, shows that the council knows what neo must do, and the fact that without neo rebroadcasting, and returning to the source, all of Zion is totally lost.

#3. Councillor Hummond does not sleep, like Neo. A small, trivial matter, but shows similarities with past, and current "Ones."

#4. Councillor Hummond urges Neo to look at the relationship between machines and humans. Foreshadowing the decision Neo must make, hopefully letting him know that the machines need humans, as much as humans need machines. The Councillor has already made the same decision.

This theory is far from waterproof. Many have brought up the point that the council must be lying to everyone. Who better to lie to the public than the government? They started it, and they know what it takes to keep the human race going.

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bobo
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posted 05-27-2003 07:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bobo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
food for thought, the twins on their roles...


Adrian: "We play left and right-hand men to Morpheus' opposite - a new guy. I can't tell you his name."

Neil: "We can tell him his name."

Adrian: "lt's the Mirror Vision. M and M. The good M and the bad M."

Neil: "The [Wachowski, directors] brothers' explanation is that we're like a deleted program that will wander the Matrix forever."

Adrian: "A pool of deleted programs are ruling the Matrix - the Mirror Vision is a magnet for all programs with this desolate lifestyle."

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system_matic
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posted 05-27-2003 07:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for system_matic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Finally someone that is making sense. thank you, you have not taken the movie to deep and watched it for what it is.
quote:
Originally posted by furiousgeorge:
I would take it a step further. After seeing the movie a 2nd time, it clearly looks as though Neo simply has the power to stop the sentinels. He holds up his hand similar to when he stops bullets in the matrix. The sentinels basically suddenly stop as if they are being held by an invisible hand. Some lightning-type effect starts to spark through them and they finally just break apart into pieces and fall to the ground.

Definitely was not an EMP, it was Neo using a new-found power. I don't buy into the 2nd matrix theory, so in my opinion I think Neo is not just the one, he is the real One referred to in the prophecy. Not just the sixth One, but the final One that leads to defeating the machines. There are signs throughout the movie that Neo may be more powerful than any of the previous Ones. I don't know how Neo gains the ability to effect the machines in the real world, but apparently he develops it by either meeting with the architect or by the act of bringing Trinity back to life.

In M1, the oracle tells Neo either he or Morpheus will die. She was wrong. In M2, the Architect tells Neo that Trinity will die. He was wrong. Neo is the second coming of the original man born inside the matrix that had the power to reshape it as he saw fit. The previous 5 ones were simply the manifestation of the flaw or the anomoly in the matrix, with some extra special powers. Neo is The One referred to in the prophecy.

Ironically, at the end Neo tells Morpheus that the prophecy is a lie. But that's just Neo. He doesn't believe in any of this fate crap, remember?

So, Neo has the power to reshape the matrix AND now he has power over the machines in the real world. However, we know there is another whole movie to go so there must be another snag. The snag is Agent Smith who has become almost as powerful (or as powerful) as Neo. M3 will be about the struggle between Neo and Agent Smith/Bane for total victory.

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-27-2003).]


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rimi
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posted 05-27-2003 10:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rimi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i don't really know if it will be the topic of M3, but logic leads us to discovery of new "leap of evolution", i.e., it's brightest example - mr. smith.. man created machines to rule the nature, machines created matrix to rule men, new breed of programs have evolved within matrix that are able to create machines and man.. thus revolutions and major battle between mr. smith and mr. anderson, upgraded virtuality vs. upgraded reality.. if both of them can modify matrix, machines become a tool in their "hands".. but more insane it is, if it's all still part of matrix, i.e., previously created system of control of undesirable obstacles..

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rimi
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posted 05-27-2003 10:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rimi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hmm.. of course, it's "..to RULE (not create) machines and men.."

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RwD
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posted 05-27-2003 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just came to my mind:
Architect: "she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program"

Little math:
6,000,000,000 people on earth
60,000,000 will not accept the programming (about 1%)
If memory serves me Zion counts 250,000 humans. Where did the others go? Did they die when they where disconnected form the matrix? That means that only 1 in 240 people lives when disconnected, pretty small odds

Does anybody know anything on this?

==================
Another thing:

quote:
Originally posted by Brenson:
I don't know if anyone has come to this exact conclusion, but this regards the status of the council members being the 23 from the previous reload. I think that Councilor Hummond was the previous revolution's "One" and that the remaining council members were the others saved by him.

#1. Neo notes that there are no young council members. From my observations, there were no old humans period in all of Zion, except for the council members. This would also be a reason as to why they are people entrusted with the true secret of the "One", and what he must do.

#2. The council allows the Nebuchadnezzar to leave, so they can broadcast. This, to me, shows that the council knows what neo must do, and the fact that without neo rebroadcasting, and returning to the source, all of Zion is totally lost.

#3. Councillor Hummond does not sleep, like Neo. A small, trivial matter, but shows similarities with past, and current "Ones."

#4. Councillor Hummond urges Neo to look at the relationship between machines and humans. Foreshadowing the decision Neo must make, hopefully letting him know that the machines need humans, as much as humans need machines. The Councillor has already made the same decision.

This theory is far from waterproof. Many have brought up the point that the council must be lying to everyone. Who better to lie to the public than the government? They started it, and they know what it takes to keep the human race going.


Good point
How many councilmembers are there?

[This message has been edited by RwD (edited 05-27-2003).]

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-27-2003 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RwD:
Just came to my mind:
Architect: "she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program"

Little math:
6,000,000,000 people on earth
60,000,000 will not accept the programming (about 1%)
If memory serves me Zion counts 250,000 humans. Where did the others go? Did they die when they where disconnected form the matrix? That means that only 1 in 240 people lives when disconnected, pretty small odds

Does anybody know anything on this?


I think that many people were either killed or died in the holocaust and war between the humans and the machines. When the humans are introduced to the matrix, remember that they are genetically cultivated and grown in "crops". We really don't know anything really about the entire matrix "world"; only that a few cities or maybe only one city looks like a large Metropolitan city from the United States circa 1998. I think the 6 billion people on Earth now is irrelevant, but you make a good point for the math.

If a quarter million (1%) reject the matrix, then 250,000 X 100 = 25,000,000. 24.75 million people exist in the matrix. Does seem kind of low. That's the wonder of fiction. You can make up a story where the facts escape reality. Look around on the net for an explanation about how the theory about reclaiming energy (BTUs) from humans is total scientific horse crap.


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Othyem
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posted 05-27-2003 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Othyem     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The idea about the counciler being the previous one is interesting, but remember, he did say that he didn't know how Neo could do the things he could do. If he were the previous one, he would know.

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NeoMorph
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posted 05-27-2003 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok here, hold the phones before jacking back out. The council member is not the previous "one". Get out your M1 and play it again. When Moprheus talks to Neo in his room, he tells him about the prophecy...and that "there was a man born inside the matrix...do what he saw fit...before he DIED he told of his return, and that return would end the war...". Can I get an amen!

K-

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RwD
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posted 05-27-2003 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Then the council person is one of the 23 people, also a nice theory, though less spectacular. Perhaps we get to meet the old one. It could also be that people do not get to live 100 years around that time in the future and the 23 humans are all dead

quote:
Originally posted by DoogsDC:
I think that many people were either killed or died in the holocaust and war between the humans and the machines. When the humans are introduced to the matrix, remember that they are genetically cultivated and grown in "crops". We really don't know anything really about the entire matrix "world"; only that a few cities or maybe only one city looks like a large Metropolitan city from the United States circa 1998. I think the 6 billion people on Earth now is irrelevant, but you make a good point for the math.

If a quarter million (1%) reject the matrix, then 250,000 X 100 = 25,000,000. 24.75 million people exist in the matrix. Does seem kind of low. That's the wonder of fiction. You can make up a story where the facts escape reality. Look around on the net for an explanation about how the theory about reclaiming energy (BTUs) from humans is total scientific horse crap.


Yeah well, they do cultivate humans in awfully big fields, with giagantic machines. And besides, the Matrix seems like our world as it is now, so the matrix would be having to simulate people in order to get to 6 bilion. On the other hand, 6bilion is just a number, I never counted every distinct head in the world, perhaps the actual count is lower too....

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