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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
RwD
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posted 06-01-2003 11:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, I haven't seen this before:

I am now guessing the "real world" is more a sort of "Truman Show" without Truman, and perhaps even without the show...

Reason I say this is because the Architect seems to have video he cannot have if he did not come aboard the neb. every now and then. This could go for the Oracle as well, but then again, she could be reading his mind...

Anybody?

Silaagu> First read everything the next time


quote:
Originally posted by havenfx:
... Anyways, when the black guy turns on the pinch when it goes off you might recall that you see nothing but every power grid in Las Vegas shuts down. So i think the EMP blast that you always see in the matrix(that blue effect shit) is just an effect to clarify the EMP radius and for eye candy
For one thing you seem to forget that Ocean's eleven is a movie too, they could have it wrong as well. (but besides that; I never saw an emp, but I would guess you can't actually see it)

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The Omega
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posted 06-01-2003 12:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Omega     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RWD> The Avatars in the Matrix is, as Morpheus explains in M1, ”a mental projection of the digital self”. So when Neo is the Matrix his memory also becomes code. Which the ”evil” Architect can read.
The real world is a Truman Show as far as it is another kind of control. It is real enough, but the machines utilize it to blackmail the One.

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disturbed
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posted 06-01-2003 11:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for disturbed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very interesting theory Omega, but still the fact remains that the Architect does reply "Please" in a derogatory tone as though he disagrees with Neo's suggestion that the Oracle is the Mother.

I realise there are quite a few theories that place the Oracle in the role of the Mother, but IMHO the Architect was denying that this is fact by replying in an almost smug tone to Neo's responce which he saw as an unworthy interuption by continuing on with "As i was saying...".

Perhaps the Mother is a character yet to be introduced, or perhaps im reading into something extremely simple, heh. Guess thats the beauty of speculation.

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markjoes
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posted 06-02-2003 03:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for markjoes     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Omega:
Silaagu> Happens to the best of us

Disturbed> There is no “hard” evidence to suggest the Oracle is the mother of the Matrix, no. Just is there is no real hard evidence that it is Persephone. But the Warchoski Brothers seem to utilize myths, legends and every piece of classic storytelling in the world, along with philosophy and Zen, so I went to look at some… names.
The Merovingian was a dynasty of french kings in what is now France and Germany in the 5th to 8th century, and was later the name of an order of the grail. The Merovingian Order of the Holy Grail. A coincidence here? Hardly
Persephone was the Greek legends myth daughter of Zeus and Demeter. Hades, the evil lord of the underworld went to his brother Zeus and asked to marry her. Zeus kinda said “yes” between the lines, knowing Demeter wouldn’t really think the king of death to be the best part for her daughter. So Hades abducted Persephone and took her to the underworld, where she eventually came to love the cold king of darkness. Demeter is fairly pissed, and Persephone wants to leave the underworld. Fortunately she hasn’t eaten anything down there, it would bind her to the underworld. But on the day she is to leave she does eat something. Oh, doom.
Okay try that with Demeter=The Oracle, Zeus=The Architect, Hades=The Merovingian and Persephone as herself. Along with the don’t eat any Hades-related stuff.
Persephone might be a program written by the Oracle and the Architect to keep an eye on exiled programs. The whole underworld theme is elaborated by ghosts, aliens, vampires and werewolves.
Might be an over interpretation, I agree. But imagine where we are just before revolutions opens!


Hey are you copying my greek theory!!!

I already covered all that - but I don't beleive the Demeter = Oracle, I think the mother is someone else. I was thinking of the Oracle as more a single entity i.e. The Oracle at Delphi.

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MRM
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posted 06-02-2003 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wot:

speculation is what keeps us all interested...heres one for you...just because the quote "he fights for us" comes during the fight between neo and smith, it doesnt mean morpheus actually says it then. They could have just dubbed it that way to make us all think that way. He could be talking about sereph!!

[/B]


agreed. I believe Morpheus is talking about sereph, and not smith, because you see sereph holding two guns in one scene as a fight breaks out.

Back to the original point about him possibily referring to smith - in movie trailers they often cut and splice clips that don't belong together for the 'shock effect' rather than to elaborate on the plot.

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shaun_lee30
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posted 06-02-2003 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shaun_lee30     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Speaking of Seraph, why was he glowing gold when NEO was looking at him in code. Is it a. He was meditating and that was his aura?
b. Same reason The cake from the Merv in the resteraunt was gold. Maybe a program created by a program has a diferent code?
He said he designed it himself, in the resteraunt. Not sure how he exactly put it. The oracle had no need for seraph in the 1st, but now she does (because of smith or her disobeying?) so maybe she created the Seraph program?
Maybe a little far fetched, just wondering if there were any other ideas

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MRM
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posted 06-02-2003 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shaun_lee30:
Speaking of Seraph, why was he glowing gold when NEO was looking at him in code. Is it a. He was meditating and that was his aura?
b. Same reason The cake from the Merv in the resteraunt was gold. Maybe a program created by a program has a diferent code?
He said he designed it himself, in the resteraunt. Not sure how he exactly put it. The oracle had no need for seraph in the 1st, but now she does (because of smith or her disobeying?) so maybe she created the Seraph program?
Maybe a little far fetched, just wondering if there were any other ideas

the cake didn't 'glow' gold; it was bright green. And maybe all sentient programs have a golden aura; we don't actually know because we've never seen any other programs through Neo's eyes (sereph is the first and only one to be viewed in this manner).

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RwD
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posted 06-02-2003 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Omega:
RWD> The Avatars in the Matrix is, as Morpheus explains in M1, ”a mental projection of the digital self”. So when Neo is the Matrix his memory also becomes code. Which the ”evil” Architect can read.
The real world is a Truman Show as far as it is another kind of control. It is real enough, but the machines utilize it to blackmail the One.


yeah well, reading minds is one thing, but like someone else mentioned as well: The video is in third person view, including Neo in the picture. No way neo remembers everything in third person... Do you?

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-02-2003 05:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MRM:
the cake didn't 'glow' gold; it was bright green. And maybe all sentient programs have a golden aura; we don't actually know because we've never seen any other programs through Neo's eyes (sereph is the first and only one to be viewed in this manner).

Not true...

Neo had seen the three agents (including Smith) in M1. All the agents were the same "green" color as everything else.

It's funny how it only showed Sereph in code in the movie. I *wonder* if the Oracle or the keymaker were of a yellow color coding.

Knock that one out of the water.

K-

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disturbed
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posted 06-02-2003 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for disturbed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NeoMorph:

I *wonder* if the Oracle or the keymaker were of a yellow color coding.


Interesting.

But one theroy that also supports the theory of the Oracle being the Mother is that Seraph (AKA "Protector of the Gods") is some form of 'matrix angel' sent to protect the Oracle.

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nupe494
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posted 06-03-2003 09:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nupe494     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This may be irrelavent but why is everyone calling Neo the "anomoly" when the architect clearly called him the RESULT of the anomoly? I'm just curious. I know the agents in the beginning called him the anomoly but the architect seem to be pretty clear that he was the result of it.

Secondly, how does one know that Neo was to clearly choose the door to save the human race when the architect stated that he has experienced this fondness differently than the others. Specifically, Trinity. He seemed to know what choice Neo was going to make.

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MRM
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posted 06-03-2003 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I watched M1 again last night for the first time since seeing M2 and Morpheus clearly states that (and I paraphrase) "when the matrix was created, a man was born inside who could change the matrix as he saw fit (aka, The One), he freed the first of us (the 23 men and women the architect refers to). Upon his passing, the oracle prophesized his return and with it the destruction of the matrix and an end to the war". The events in Reloaded unfold just as prophosized by the oracle; Neo chooses the left door instead of reloading the matrix, which will ultimatley lead to the matrix crashing (destroyed), and he'll eventually end the war in Revolutions.

So does this mean the architect was wrong? No, he truly believed everything he told Neo; the matrix will crash, Trinity will die and Zion will be destroyed.

Well he was right, Trinity did die... but she didn't stay dead. So, with that little twist, we can assume that Neo will find a way to save Zion and prevent the Matrix from crashing in Revolutions just as he found a way to breath life into Trinity...

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nupe494
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posted 06-03-2003 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nupe494     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Everything prophised so far has happened. Anything that has been predicted has always come to pass. Choice is an illusion. Neo hasn't done anything they say he wouldn't have done. He is being read like a book.

[This message has been edited by nupe494 (edited 06-03-2003).]

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MRM
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posted 06-03-2003 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nupe494:
Everything prophised so far has happened. Anything that has been predicted has always come to pass. Choice is an illusion. Neo hasn't done anything they say he wouldn't have done. He is being read like a book.

[This message has been edited by nupe494 (edited 06-03-2003).]


the only problem I have with this statement is the following; if everything was designed by the architect to lead The One back to the source (hence no choice) then how do you explain the fact that Cypher was going to unplug/kill Neo in the real world (M1)? was it an 'illusion' of choice when tank killed Cypher right before Cypher could kill Neo? if this was all occurring in the 'real' world then the machines supposedly would have no control over cypher's and tank's actions - then was The One saved by shear luck?

thoughts?

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havenfx
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posted 06-03-2003 04:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for havenfx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yea probably by shear luck...because if Neo died..there wouldnt be another movie(s). I think they(directors) just put that scene in there to add some shock value to the movie and giving the audience a sense of "Whew! That was a close call!"...i doubt it had any true TRUE meaning to it besides the immediate effect

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havenfx
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posted 06-03-2003 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for havenfx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MRM:
I watched M1 again last night for the first time since seeing M2 and Morpheus clearly states that (and I paraphrase) "when the matrix was created, a man was born inside who could change the matrix as he saw fit (aka, The One), he freed the first of us (the 23 men and women the architect refers to). Upon his passing, the oracle prophesized his return and with it the destruction of the matrix and an end to the war". The events in Reloaded unfold just as prophosized by the oracle; Neo chooses the left door instead of reloading the matrix, which will ultimatley lead to the matrix crashing (destroyed), and he'll eventually end the war in Revolutions.

nice way of connecting everything together..and one more thing..i believe the only way mr. smith could have gotten out into the real world thru bane is if he was trapped between the two realms as neo is(enter the matrix). A program can't exist without something to run off of(OS, matrix).

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nupe494
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posted 06-03-2003 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nupe494     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Havenfx, doesn't it seem just way too coicidental that when Neo and company were going to the source, that one of the three ships was found and destroyed by the centinals which caused Trinity to have to re-enter the Matrix?

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MRM
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posted 06-03-2003 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by havenfx:
yea probably by shear luck...because if Neo died..there wouldnt be another movie(s). I think they(directors) just put that scene in there to add some shock value to the movie and giving the audience a sense of "Whew! That was a close call!"...i doubt it had any true TRUE meaning to it besides the immediate effect

I disagree. Cypher says to trinity "it's going to take a miracle to save him", right before tank blasts him with the energy ray. If it was just for shock and nothing to do with fate, prophocies etc then he wouldn't have mentioned a 'miracle'

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MRM
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posted 06-03-2003 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by havenfx:
nice way of connecting everything together..and one more thing..i believe the only way mr. smith could have gotten out into the real world thru bane is if he was trapped between the two realms as neo is(enter the matrix). A program can't exist without something to run off of(OS, matrix).

you may be right. but in M1, when the agents are trying to break morpheus for the codes to Zion's mainframe tank says "they're hacking his mind, it's just like hacking into a computer, eventually they'll have control and morpheus will tell them everything". In M2, Agent Smith has become proficient at 'hacking' the minds of people and can download his programming into their brains just as the agents in M1 were trying to hack morpheus' mind to download the codes to Zion's mainframe.

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-03-2003 06:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nupe494:
Havenfx, doesn't it seem just way too coicidental that when Neo and company were going to the source, that one of the three ships was found and destroyed by the centinals which caused Trinity to have to re-enter the Matrix?

This can stem into one of the wandering theories that Trinity is not really what she seems. There is talk that she is like Cypher and a bad person, just going along to keep Neo in check and to "guide" him...into what, who knows. Maybe Trinity is in with the architect and the bad people/machines/programs and the architect pushes Trinity to go into the Matrix, so Neo will choose the left door. Just an idea...

K-

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DoogsDC
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posted 06-03-2003 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK dudes. The animatrix was just released today. In the film short, "Matriculated," Zionists start capturing robots and turning them to the human side. The scene then, well... I won't spoil it for you. But it's a big twist on the story.

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cfol
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posted 06-04-2003 09:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just seen it myself actually (Animatrix that is). Some beautiful stories, and great background that have made me rethink the position of the machines in all this. I guess the stories in the Animatrix should be taken as read, and not interpreted as 'possibly being an artificial history fed by the machines to zion'.

I've not got many more questions left on these fims now, some great discussions on this board have helped me form my opinions of whats going on, and what may happen. I am really looking forward to the last film now.

One puzzle left though... not bad work to get from 24 people (23 plus the one), to 250,000 in 100 years. That's a lot of mind freeing and kiddie making. That's an average of 2,500 new zionists a year. Also, alot of infrastructure to build from limited resources...

With all that work, i doubt they would be able to confirm that they were the last human city on earth... it's a big planet. That's not a criticism, just noting that there's obviously plenty of scope for surprises in the last film.

But, one thing i'd like answering in the last film, what have the machines been doing all this time? Surely not spending their whole tme managing the matrix and their crops.


I noticed in the Animatrix (SPOILERS), that some humans gave their lives in defence of the machines, it's plausible that the machines may well recognise we are not all the same... I loved the story where captured machines were plugged into a 'Matrix' designed by the humans, the aim was for the machine to 'choose' to accept the humans, and see that perhaps the destruction of the was wrong, therefore help them. Wonder if that's what this is all about... perhaps the aim is to have humans who can understand the situation and learn to live with the machines, not necesarily destroy them... there's are plenty of reminders of the symbiotic relationship of man and machine. If both man and machine are sentient ans can benefit each other (each has capabilities the other hasn't), then it would make sense that the aim of the machines was to forge a relationship.

I believe the 'real' world is real and not MiM, but it's possible that zion could be artificially constructed by the machines. Now humans are slaves to the machines, a number of humans are given the chance to learn and change things... so far they've failed 5 times.

Now I know thats mostly waffle, and there is little point debating what's going to happen in the final film, but as i said, most of the hard questions have been discussed and answered here already, just thought i'd share my thoughts on where this could go.

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Smigs
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posted 06-04-2003 07:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Smigs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Matrix Revolutions is not the final part of the Matrix Saga. The W.Brothers wants to make a forth Matrix film but Keanu Reeves doesn't want to star in it.

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Xcubetion
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posted 06-04-2003 09:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xcubetion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If they make a 4th matrix movie and they leave us like what they did reloaded - i would be pissed.

[This message has been edited by Xcubetion (edited 06-04-2003).]

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DoogsDC
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posted 06-05-2003 08:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For as much money as the matrix franchise has been generating, they would be foolish not to continue the story. If I were a hollywood executive, I'd give the W.'s a blank check.

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shaun_lee30
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posted 06-05-2003 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shaun_lee30     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SMIGS.....is that serious? how long is this saga supposed to go?

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MRM
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posted 06-05-2003 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Smigs:
The Matrix Revolutions is not the final part of the Matrix Saga. The W.Brothers wants to make a forth Matrix film but Keanu Reeves doesn't want to star in it.

not true. I saw an interview with the cast and they were asked if they would do a fourth matrix film if an offer was made and they ALL said that the Wachowski's had told the story with the trilogy and that there was nothing left to tell... period.

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shaun_lee30
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posted 06-05-2003 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shaun_lee30     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thar's what I thought. If there was a 4th, then 2 wouldn't have ended like that.

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-05-2003 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I virtually smack the person that made that remark about there being a fourth Matrix.

K-

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-05-2003 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Haven't heard this one yet...

Ok, remember in the first scene, Trinity out the window - bullets flying - Trinity gets hit - *important* SOMEONE lands on a car - then Neo wakes up.

When I first seen that I assumed it was Trinity hitting the car while falling. Now at the end this happens...
Trinity out the window - bullets flying - Trinity gets hit - SOMEONE lands on a car and it was the AGENT that hit the car.

So bascially Neo had seen in his dream in just parts. Now what's really going to cook your noodle is who was the person that landed on the car in Neo's dream...Trinity or the Agent.

This simple scene gets very complicated.
If you said it was Trinity then Neo made a concious choice to not let her land on the car and die (as he seen in his dream - which did not show who landed on the car). Neo assumed it was Trinity and he was not going to let that happen.

If you said the Agent, then that implies that Neo did exactly *as planned* and took the left door, saved Trinity and let the Agent fall into the car (again the scene did not show who landed on the car). Neo had seen his future but his vision just left out the part on him actually catching Trinity.

Scary isn't it?

K-

[This message has been edited by NeoMorph (edited 06-05-2003).]

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Niles
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posted 06-05-2003 09:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Niles     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting indeed, Neomorph... Add to your theory the fact that the SAME agent landed on a car during the car chase (in SloMo, nonetheless)... that could have been fore- (or is it after-)shadowing.

Concering the Agents: I have a theory which I haven't read before:
I think it might be possible that the Agents aren't co-operating with the 'real' Matrix (meaning the Architect, Oracle and possibly/probably the Merivignian and Persephone). After all, they interfere with the mission of The One time after time... a mission designed by the Matrix as a failsafe for the people that don't accept the Matrix.
I believe that Zion is indeed a Matrix that surrounds the 'core Matrix'. Therefore, I believe that there is a world beyond Zion, which is the actual real world (and since there's only a certain percentage that rejects the core Matrix, there is probably also another percentage that rejects the second (Zion)Matrix. Neo represents this percentage.
Now, I believe that there are people outside the two Matrices, who don't have direct access to the Matrices, but are able to hack it by planting their own programs into the core Matrix. These programs could be the Agents, which would explain their constant trying to kill Neo and his friends, contacting Cypher to betray Neo, etc. The Agents could actually be an effort to put an end to the false prophecy and thereby terminating the failsafe Zion-program.

Added to that, I suspect Neo being a program (designed to fulfill the prophecy over and over again, to keep the people trapped into the Zion-Matrix content), but I am not entirely sure about that, since it seems like it's all about choice, and I believe that choice has to be made by a real human, not a program.

I'll have to see Matrix 3 to see how this all works out - I just hope they come up with a resolution that satisfies, because a lame resolution could devastate the coolness that was Matrix: Reloaded.

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Niles
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posted 06-05-2003 09:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Niles     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, added to my post below, I also think that Agent Smith will ultimately join sides with Neo. I can't really explain why I think this, but I think he will turn against the machines, either because he is programmed by humans, or because he discovers that he has also been fooled by the Matrix (because there is no direct outside world - it is a Matrix surrounding the core Matrix). Of course, MiM-rejectors will not agree with this reasoning, but there probably could be a way to have Neo and Smith join forces without the MiM-theory. (I think my main reasons for believing this will happen are the councilmember's comment on 'humans and machines being dependant' and the fact that Smith is the coolest character in the movies and making him a good guy eventually would make him even cooler (In my opinion).

Let's see what others think of my thoughts...

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zero
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posted 06-05-2003 11:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for zero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Im not sure if anyone has posted this idea yet, but after watching the Animatrix last night, a certain story caught my eye. I believe is was entitled "Matriculated", and the story to sum it up simpliy tells us about how the humans capture a machine in their efforts to become more intelligent on machine behavior and to aid in the "war" against. So my question, is Neo possibly a machine that the humans captured in order to fight the war against the machines?

Some other points i would like to comment on, first off...something is bothering me about the whole Architect scence...why would they need to capture Morpheus or Neo is the first to gain access to Zions mainframe, if they could simply just attack Zion like they are doing in the second and third films? Or are the agents and the architect really on the same page or after alterior motives? Thirdly I would like to point out that this movie was originally created as one long movie, and the producers at WB told the W bros that they could only afford to feature one part of the film to see how they could handle it. It just seems to me that some people are forgetting the first movie and running with the second, just keep in mind this is not a sequel that was thought up after Matrix 1. To me this proves the MiM theory wrong, you have to trust the story line clear out all other logic, and put yourself in teh storyline, 2 hours is not enough to explain what happened in the end of the second movie and then go off to explain the MiM theory.

As far as the TV screens in the architect screen being "other choices Neo could make", im not too sure i belive that either because if you watch the first movie you see those screens right before Neo and Agent Smith meet for the first time in that room.

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zero
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posted 06-05-2003 11:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for zero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
sorry didnt finish that last thought, back to the screens, you see them in the first movie when he meets Agent Smith for the first time....if you look at the screen its merely the same image in everyone.

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DoogsDC
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posted 06-06-2003 12:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I doubt seriously that anyone here gives a shit about philosophy, but what the hey.

In the animatrix clip, "the kid", we learn the name of the kid in matrix reloaded who gives Neo the spoon has the name Michael KARL POPPER. Karl Popper is a philosopher who shuns reason. In fact, he devised a theory that we can never verify anything; we can only falsify theories. Hence, the exact idea of the matrix. Moreover, if MiM is true...... This theory is the entire point of the movie. We can never verify this reality exists, we can only falsify the theory of its existence. We find that Karl is the only one to every "transubstantiate" himself out of the matrix. He needed no help. He new the matrix was false and willed himself out of it.

Interesting to think about. By the way, I don't really care if I spoiled anything. No one gives a crap about philosophy anyway.

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