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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
Leecher
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posted 06-06-2003 01:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Leecher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geez. I quit reading this forum for about a week and now there's too much to keep up with. Anyway, here's a conversation between the Oracle and Niobe that takes place in the game, "Enter the Matrix"

ORACLE: Niobe.....

NIOBE: Do I know you?

ORACLE: You know me, though you just may not recognize me.

NIOBE: Are you telling me that you are the Oracle?

ORACLE: I know this may not be easy for any of you, change never is. I wish the face you remember was the face I was still wearing, but that face is gone.

NIOBE: If you are the Oracle, tell me if I believe you are.

ORACLE: You don't right now, but you will.

NIOBE: Are you going to tell me something to make me believe you?

ORACLE: Come on Niobe, you know I can't do that.

N: Why not?

O: Because I cannot make you do anything.

N: At least you sound the same.

O: As I said, you may not recognize the face, but who and what I am underneath remains the same.

N: Can I ask what happened?

O: The Merovingian warned me, that If I made a certain choice it would cost me. He is, among other things, a man of his word.

N: What was the choice?

O: The same one you yourself will have to make: The choice to help Neo or not.

N: Then Neo is still alive?

O: Yes, he touched the source and seperated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours.

N: Can we free him?

O: Trinity can, but she will have to fight her way through hell to do it.

N: Can I help?

O: That's why I called you. I cannot tell you what is going to happen. All I can do is hope that if given the chance, you will find the courage to do what you can.

N: You once told me you knew everything you needed to.

O: I do. I knew everything from the begining of this path to the end.

N: I don't understand.

O: Even I can't see beyond the end.

N: The end? Are you trying to tell me the world is going to end?

O: Yes. If we cannot save it, it will end.

N: You mean Neo.

O: I mean we. The path of the one is made by the many. I have a role to play just as you have yours.

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Leecher
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posted 06-06-2003 02:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Leecher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's a few thoughts.

Neo being a program:
I don't think Neo is a program. If you go back and watch the first movie assuming that Neo is a program, it just doesn't fit.

The Oracle:
Some people think the Oracle is another control program to get The One to reboot the Matrix. Neo even alluded to it when he was telling Morpheus that it was a lie. However, just like there a programs that go bad (Merovingian, vampires, etc.), I think the Oracle is a program gone good. And here's my reasoning. When Neo/Trinity/Morpheus were leaving the Merovingian's table, the Merovingian told Neo to "Tell that fortune teller her time is almost up." And in the game, the Oracle told Niobe the reason she looks different was because the Merovingian warned her it would cost her if she helped Neo. (Also a cute way to explain the look of the new Oracle, since the old one died.)

Matrix within a Matrix support:
Remember when Neo goes to see the Oracle just before fighting all the Smiths? She tells him that she knows he isn't sleeping. This jumped out at me the 2nd time I saw the movie. How can the Oracle (a program inside the Matrix) know that Neo (a person unplugged from the Matrix) is not sleeping? Unless there is a "Matrix within a Matrix".

Neo stopping the sentinels:
Here's one possible (although it has holes) theory of how Neo was able to stop the sentinels. Neo chose the door on the left, the destruction of the Matrix, and the death of every human being attached to it. Maybe he doesn't really "stop" the sentinels. Maybe they were stopped because everyone attached to the Matrix died and they didn't have any power (copper tops). I don't like that theory, but I haven't seen it posted yet.

Here's a doozy:
The Oracle told Niobe that Neo "touched the source and seperated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours." Neo's mind is in the Matrix and his body is in the real world. He has Matrix-like powers in the real world. When he finally used Matrix-like powers in the real world, it threw him into a coma. Who knows what it might have done to him in the Matrix. But now Trinity has to "fight her way through hell" to save him.

Any thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Leecher (edited 06-06-2003).]

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hardline
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posted 06-06-2003 05:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hardline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, Wow... what a theories... Alright, the other day my collegue came to me telling his best friend (who doesn't like the Matrix) had seen an illegal crappy version of Revolutions on the Internet. He was telling that Neo is a program written by Morpheus. Morpheus had attempted to create a good program as neo a couple of times before but always failed. Now The new program is doing its thing according to plan!

Smith managed to get into a human body (bane) so why couldn't they insert a program in the body of Neo...

Neo Feels the machines... this is still strange but i do not believe the machines are the way they are in the second matrix (MiM).

I have read a lot of info in this forum. A lot of theories circulate... it is confusing. I do not know what to believe anymore... what is real?

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Leecher
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posted 06-06-2003 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Leecher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Reasons why I don't believe the MiM theory.

First of all, I think the term "Matrix inside a Matrix" can be misleading. Really there's 1 "Matrix" and several "Worlds" or "Realities" or "States of Consciousness". Having said that here's my anti-MiM arguments.

1. Why would Neo be in a coma from stopping the sentinels? If he realized that he's in another Matrix he should have stopped them and been on his way.

2. If Zion was a MiM, why would the machines have to destroy it? Everyone in Zion is still technically a copper top attached to the Matrix in a pod somewhere, right? Why would the machines care how big the population of the 2nd Matrix got. Everyone in Zion could fight the machines to their heart's content and still not pose a threat to the real machines outside the MiM.

3. There would be no need for the machines to create the "People break out of the Matrix, who find the Oracle, who prophesies a 'Messiah', who the people find, who destroys the Matrix, which ends the was with the machines" type of control system. If people break out of one "world" inside the Matrix, who cares. They’re still trapped inside the Matrix, still attached to a pod, still providing energy for the machines, etc.

4. If there was a MiM, how do we know who/what really controls the Matrix? Could be machines controlling humans, could be humans controlling humans, could be mutated bunny rabbits controlling grub worms. Maybe nobody's controlling anything. Right now we think that machines are controlling humans because that's what we were told in the first movie. If Zion was another Matrix, there's really no way we can know who/what the conflict of the trilogy is between.

5. If there was a MiM, the 1st and 3rd movies would be irrelevant. If there was a MiM everything we learned in the 1st movie was a lie, and everything we will learn in the 3rd movie will be a lie as well. The only truth we learn is that there is no truth.

6. The MiM theory doesn't offer any kind of conclusion. And we were promised a conclusion at the end of Reloaded. If the MiM(iMiMiMiM) theory is correct, the end of Reloaded should have read "To be continued. . ." because that's all it can do is continue. #4 and #5 above put up a pretty good argument of how you could never conclude a story like that.

7. Personally I think the Wachowski brothers are smarter than that. Not only would it be the biggest disappointment in movie history, they would also suffer the sales of repeat theater customers (which I am, seen Reloaded 3x) and DVD/VHS customers (which I am as well). They've already got my business when Reloaded comes out on DVD and when Revolutions hits the theater. And that's because they've created such a clever story.

Really what the Wachowski brothers have done so far is created a great trilogy. And I don't think they'll let us down. The first movie outlines the story and the second movie creates the questions that the third movie will answer.

[This message has been edited by Leecher (edited 06-06-2003).]

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havenfx
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posted 06-06-2003 05:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for havenfx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
bullshit

first of all, the movie is so confidential that at the WB studios there are so many guards ecuring the editing rooms and shit..besides they havent fully completeed the editing and effects and shit..they only finished shooting it.

second of all, the wachowski brother arent that stupid haveing a fuckin predictable-ass ending to M3. there is no fucking way there is a fucking matrix in matrix and that neo is a fuckin program. because neo did bleed in real life multiple times in M1.

illegal version my ass..you my friend are extremely gullible

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havenfx
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posted 06-06-2003 05:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for havenfx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Leecher:

4. If there was a MiM, how do we know who/what really controls the Matrix? Could be machines controlling humans, could be humans controlling humans, could be mutated bunny rabbits controlling grub worms. Maybe nobody's controlling anything. Right now we think that machines are controlling humans because that's what we were told in the first movie. If Zion was another Matrix, there's really no way we can know who/what the conflict of the trilogy is between.[This message has been edited by Leecher (edited 06-06-2003).]

very nice points leecher...maybe its aliens who put machines on earth to preapre earth for invasion/living ~_^..lol jk..that be fuckin crazy and fuckin gay-ass ending

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havenfx
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posted 06-06-2003 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for havenfx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
o yea..back to that one person commenting on my post that neo should be able to do anything i.e. walk thru walls. i only have to say that neo CAN walk through walls because as u may know neo reached inside a damn human body and jumped inside another one(not really human but made to look like one) so i think itd be nice if you see neo just walking through walls, passing through unopenable doors..like the twins

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RelajadoYa
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posted 06-06-2003 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RelajadoYa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am new to this forum but hoped I could share a few humble ideas.

Did anyone else notice the very obvious CG of Neo at some points during Reloaded? (When he flies and creates the tornado-like thing, the smiths fight, and flying away from the bomb after speaking w/ the Architect)

On the Matrix DVD it shows how they did the special effects - they actually filmed a controlled explosion for the scene when Trinity and Neo detonate the bomb in the lobby. Seems like a lot of trouble to me for just fire. So then why would they use a computer Neo image in important scenes in the movie, where we see close-ups of his face, and (I think) it looked crappy. Maybe to hint at Neo not being human?

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havenfx
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posted 06-07-2003 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for havenfx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
o yeah..persephone isnt human..dunno if that fact has been stablished..because during the lesbian scene in enter the matrix where persehpone kisses niobe..just before that niobe says "you're not a woman. you're not even human"

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aidfarh
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posted 06-08-2003 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aidfarh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My thoughts after seeing the movie and playing the game (with Niobe):

In the game, the Oracle told Niobe that Neo has touched the Source. Was she lying or telling the truth?. Neo chose the door on the right, leading to the Matrix, instead of the Source, so he didn't touch the Source then. The only other opportunity was at the end, when he was in the coma. Maybe he somehow touched the Source there. But the Architect told Neo that they won't meet again, so was it possible for Neo to touch the Source without going through the Architect?

The Oracle said that Neo was somewhere between the Real World and the Matrix. I figure this might means he's in somewhere similar to the Construct. You know, the humans had a place where they load themselves first, and load up on supplies etc., before entering the Matrix. I'm thinking Neo might be in a similar place, built by the machines, that is used to prepare programs before they are sent into the Matrix, or maybe a place used to prepare (reprogram) humans before the reconstruction of the Matrix, which would happen after Neo touch the Source.

Trinity would have to fight through Hell to save Neo. I think Oracle was speaking literally, not just figuratively. Maybe Hell, in the context of the Matrix, was some kind of repository for programs that have been deleted, some sort of Recycle Bin.

I noticed that in the Revolutions trailer, when Neo was fighting Smith, all the buildings in the background were filled by Smith clones. In the game, there was a level called "The Infection Spreads". So I'm guessing that Smith eventually will infect every human being left in the Matrix, all 6 billion of them. So it would be up to Neo to somehow "cure" the humans. I'm guessing, this was why in Revolutions, the Matrix would not be able to be Reloaded, even after Neo has touched the Source - that is, if the Oracle was telling the truth - because Smith has taken over of everyone.

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-09-2003 10:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:

Matrix within a Matrix support:
Remember when Neo goes to see the Oracle just before fighting all the Smiths? She tells him that she knows he isn't sleeping. This jumped out at me the 2nd time I saw the movie. How can the Oracle (a program inside the Matrix) know that Neo (a person unplugged from the Matrix) is not sleeping? Unless there is a "Matrix within a Matrix"

Wrong...or let me say that isn't right. The Oracle, like the Architect, can read the program code of Neo, Trinity, etc. So the Oracle can see emotions, physical adaptations, etc. This nowhere close supports the MiM HYPOTHESIS. Theories are based on good evidence, and this is not one of them.

quote:

Neo stopping the sentinels:
Here's one possible (although it has holes) theory of how Neo was able to stop the sentinels. Neo chose the door on the left, the destruction of the Matrix, and the death of every human being attached to it. Maybe he doesn't really "stop" the sentinels. Maybe they were stopped because everyone attached to the Matrix died and they didn't have any power (copper tops). I don't like that theory, but I haven't seen it posted yet

There is no proof that everyone plugged in is dead. If everyone got unplugged at once that doesn't mean all the machines would stop right then (see animatrix for reasoning).


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loki
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posted 06-09-2003 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have read most, but not all of the conversation, and I have one question. How is the message from the Oracle taken out of the Matrix? Before the guy with Bane picks up the phone he puts the floppy disk (for lack of another name) with the Oracle message in his coat pocket. Later that same floppy is in the "real" world and is given to Neo. Nobody in the real world seems to think this is unusual or miraculous. There is also the spoon, which may be just a symbol, or may be the actual spoon from the first movie. Again no big deal is made about this object from the Matrix being substantiated in the "real" world. If things from the Matrix can be substantiated in the "real" world, then why is Neo's stopping of the Sentinals so suprising. Maybe the "real" world is not the same as 2003 Earth. Maybe the Matrix real world is different than we expect because of the advanced technology of the machines.

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-09-2003 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loki:
How is the message from the Oracle taken out of the Matrix? Before the guy with Bane picks up the phone he puts the floppy disk (for lack of another name) with the Oracle message in his coat pocket. Later that same floppy is in the "real" world and is given to Neo. Nobody in the real world seems to think this is unusual or miraculous. There is also the spoon, which may be just a symbol, or may be the actual spoon from the first movie. Again no big deal is made about this object from the Matrix being substantiated in the "real" world. If things from the Matrix can be substantiated in the "real" world, then why is Neo's stopping of the Sentinals so suprising. Maybe the "real" world is not the same as 2003 Earth. Maybe the Matrix real world is different than we expect because of the advanced technology of the machines.

Okay, we have to sit down and think here for just a moment...Ask yourself this: How can they get guns, cars', cell phones, etc, THE PEOPLE into the matrix. Easy. They are downloading the gun program, cell phone program, car program (small things) into the matrix. This is just like your computer at home. Ever play Quake and put in a cheat code to have all types of weapons in an arena...same thing here.
NOW, if you can download into the matrix, you can also UPLOAD items from the matrix (probably small items, nothing too big). In Sci Fi world, you upload information by bringing it with you when you jack out of the matrix.

Now, what they gave Neo (IMO) was not the exact item that was uploaded. They probably uploaded the code, and put it on their real world "floppy disk" and gave it to Neo *in the scene*. No need to jump into a MiM or Neo is a program, or any other crazy hypothesis' for this one.

K-

Any more questions?

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hardline
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posted 06-10-2003 06:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hardline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NeoMorph:
There is no proof that everyone plugged in is dead. If everyone got unplugged at once that doesn't mean all the machines would stop right then (see animatrix for reasoning).


And! If the Matrix Was destroyed when Neo saved Trinity, Why could Neo svae trinity... I mean. He saved her... kissed her, got rid of her bullet, gave her hart a code massage etc etc. The disctruction that you saw in the matrix, when neo was flying, was because he was flying MEGA FAST!

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cfol
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posted 06-10-2003 08:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've got a question... firstly though, I'm still enjoying the posts here, though slowly becoming reloaded out and likely to leave it all till the next film comes out shortly. Just a last couple of thoughts.

Is everyone and every programme that exists in the matrix just following a grand plan...? i.e. completely devoid of free will. If Neo is supposedly doing everything just as expected, perhaps the rest of the people plugged in are also behaving exactly as expected.

A great quote on this subject is when Marovingian tells Morpheus "choice is an illusion, created between those with power and those without"

The Oracle says too many things to mention on this subject. Why should this only apply to Neo? I think perhaps the matrix is the ultimate device to make people believe they have choice, but infact their every action is pre-determined. As the oracle said, 'you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it... now you have to understand why..'

It would seem that the machines risk a great deal by giving a human (the One) a choice when the Architect is reached. I suspect that perhaps there is a need for the illusion of choice when a cycle concludes... after all the anomaly exists because not all humans accept the matrix... the One is the peak of the anomaly and most threatening to the matrix, perhaps without choice (or the illusion of it) the anomaly would not be resolved, in other words to resolve the anomaly, the One must believe everything and go back to the source willingly.

The Architect says something along the lines that an intuitive program discovered that the humans had to be given a choice at a subconcious level to accept the matrix. Some did not accept it, hence the anomily. Perhaps the one with his ability to change the matrix could not be allowed to enter the source unwillingly, as the same fundamental problem would exist.. the understanding that the matrix is an illusion to control humans, plus the belief that all humans should be freed. He has to enter the source believing that the cycle must continue.

If the Oracles influence has changed the path of the One this time, leading Neo to chose the Matrix over returning to the source, then it should be expected that the machines are prepared for this!? It would be illogical not to have a contingency plan.

Last question... is Smith the contingency plan? Or is he another factor the machines must deal with, on top of having to deal with Neo? Smith makes a comment along the lines of 'It's happening just as expected... (smiles to another smith).. well, almost as expected' If Kid can unplug himself, perhaps Smith 'possessed' humans can too... afteral, they are more aware of the nature of their reality than they are prior to being possessed. Hmmm... No Neo, no Purpose for the Smiths, what happens then, will the hosts die? Unplug? Perhaps the machines and Neo will have to work together to deal with this one... or the Smiths will be turned against their captor (the Matrix / Architect)

... phew, sorry about that. Suppose Revolutions has plenty of scope to surprise us.

But to recap..

1) Does anything in the Matrix have free will?

2) If Neos final choice in the Architects room is pre-determined and known by the Architect, is it reasonable that a contingency plan is in place?

3) Smith is the only other clear difference from the previous times the other Ones have done all this shenanigans... is it unreasonable to prepose that this is the design of the Machines contingency plan?

Regards,

cfol


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NeoMorph
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posted 06-10-2003 10:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cfol:

1) Does anything in the Matrix have free will?

2) If Neos final choice in the Architects room is pre-determined and known by the Architect, is it reasonable that a contingency plan is in place?

3) Smith is the only other clear difference from the previous times the other Ones have done all this shenanigans... is it unreasonable to prepose that this is the design of the Machines contingency plan?

Regards,

cfol


Very nice write up cfol, very nice.

1.)Answer: Yes, there are rogue programs that have rejected the Matrix.
2.)Answer: Yes, the Architect said that they have alternate ways of survival...hence if all humans wake up/die...the machines will live on.
3.)We really do not know if the previous 5 times that this Smith replication did not occur. It could possibly have, and there is no real sign saying "Agent has never replicated before in previous cycles". I think though that Smith is a threat to the machines, and to the humans also. We cannot answer this question until we see the movie.

If we want to get philosophical here...do we as humans have a choice. The answer is in what you believe in.
We have people that believe in destiny or fate. We also have religious people that say someone greater has a plan for us.

TO BE CONTINUED...

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Xcubetion
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posted 06-10-2003 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xcubetion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

*****************
ALL THE SMALL THINGS, MATRIX RELOADED
*****************
PLEASE TAKE TIME TO READ!!!!!!!!
****************


TROJAN was a new thing seen on the Matrix Reloaded.

***********************************
PART1(just a little sidenote from me)
***********************************
See the french guy reading the girl after she eats the cake..what if Neo can be read like an open book on the matrix..why the programs maybe know what hes thinking.

Like Internet.. it has a stream to data to you.. it has a STREAM before you received.. it goes through a TUNNEL before it reaches each other..
*****************************************

*****************
PART2
*****************
ORACLE-NEO
Programs hacking programs..why? Program chooses exile when it facing deletion
WHY WOULD A PROGRAM BE DELETED? maybe it breaks down.. maybe better program is created to replace it.. and when it does it can either hide here or return to The source = machine mainframe.. where you must go.. where the path of the one ends.

you see in your dreams..door made of light.. what happens when you go in the door.. what happens? i see trinity and something happens..something bad.. she starts to fall..and then i wake up.. did you see her die, NO.. you have the site now neo.. you are looking at the world without time.. then why cant i see what happens to her.. we can never see pass the choice we cant understand.. are you saying i have to choose whether trinity lives or dies? no. you'ved already made the choice.. now you'll have to understand it. no. i cant do that. i won't. you'll have to. why? because you are the one. what if i cant. what happens if i fail? then Zion will fall.

merovingi - was introduced as he holds the keymaker. a dangerous program. wants more power.
seems like everytime we meet it always bad news.. but for what its worth you'ved made a believer out of me.
*******************************************

*********************
PART3
*********************
MRSMITH-NEO
Surprised to see me? No. then you are aware of it? of what? our connection. i dont fully understand how it happened perhaps im part of you imprinted into me, something overwritten or copied. it is at this point irrevelant. what matter is what happened happened for a reason. and what is that.

I killed you MrAnderson..and then you destroyed me.. then i understood the rules, what i was supposed to do.. but i didn't i couldn't i was compelled to stay, to disobey.. its because of you MrAnderson..i am no longer an agent.. i am unplugged. free like you.

we're here because we're not free. no denying purpose.. without purpose.. (bottom line we are are here because of you MrAnderson)
*****************************************

**********
PART4
**********
LETS GOTO FRENCH GUY-NEO, KEYMAKER:
Im a dsadsd information, i know everything i can.
He ask why Neo is here to get the Keymaker.. You are here because you are sent here.. you were told and you obeyed.. choice is an illusion created those with power.. cause and effect.

THE CAKE/GIRL:
I wrote it myself.. each line of the programs creating a new fate.. just like poetry..first a rush,heat,heart,you see it neo yes.. she doesn't understand why..what is the reason..soon it does not matter.. soon the why does not matter ..all that matters if the feeling itself.. this is the nature of the universe.. we fight to deny it..believe it is a lie.. in our poised appearance the truth is we are completely out of control.. consiality there is no escape from it.. we are all slaves from it.. our only hope our only peace is to understand it..to understand why.. why is what seperated us from them.. from me.. without neo you are powerless.. (he tells Neo to go back and tell oracle her time is up).

JUMP TO FRENCH GUY\NEO after the fight;
I Have survived your previous predecesors and i will survive you. (exits)


KEYMAKER telling them something:
Door leads to the source.. secured system on the building program for a bomb.. but built on the matrix.. so this is why they turn off power..
*********************************************


NEO/SMITH 2nd time:
Sorry this is a dead end. Looks surprised to see me again MrAnderson.. something between us.. i am expecting you.. i want exactly want you want EVERYTHING.

********************************
******************************
These are pretty much KEY scenes on the movie.. the girl getting off eating the cake is not only funny to see but listening to the converstion IF YOU WERE LISTENING at that moment seems important
******************************
**************************************

more of my conclusions to be added coming after this... post..


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Xcubetion
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posted 06-10-2003 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xcubetion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xcubetion:

**********
PART4
**********
LETS GOTO FRENCH GUY-NEO, KEYMAKER:
Im a dsadsd information, i know everything i can.
He ask why Neo is here to get the Keymaker.. You are here because you are sent here.. you were told and you obeyed.. choice is an illusion created those with power.. cause and effect.

THE CAKE/GIRL:
I wrote it myself.. each line of the programs creating a new fate.. just like poetry..first a rush,heat,heart,you see it neo yes.. she doesn't understand why..what is the reason..soon it does not matter.. soon the why does not matter ..all that matters if the feeling itself.. this is the nature of the universe.. we fight to deny it..believe it is a lie.. in our poised appearance the truth is we are completely out of control.. consiality there is no escape from it.. we are all slaves from it.. our only hope our only peace is to understand it..to understand why.. why is what seperated us from them.. from me.. without neo you are powerless.. (he tells Neo to go back and tell oracle her time is up).

JUMP TO FRENCH GUY\NEO after the fight;
I Have survived your previous predecesors and i will survive you. (exits)


I THINK---everything i previously posted makes kinda answers itself.

BUT what is most interesting on my post is the FRENCH guy and Neo conversation.

THE CAKE---no one seems to talk about this.. just read my posting.. Neo has been eating cookies/candy what if what he receives has something written to it.. 'creating a new line of fate'.. im not exactly sure what he says but thats what i feel like he was trying to say..

i just pretty much caught this today.. it seems very key to the movie..


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NeoMorph
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posted 06-11-2003 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xcubetion:
I THINK---everything i previously posted makes kinda answers itself.

BUT what is most interesting on my post is the FRENCH guy and Neo conversation.

THE CAKE---no one seems to talk about this.. just read my posting.. Neo has been eating cookies/candy what if what he receives has something written to it.. 'creating a new line of fate'.. im not exactly sure what he says but thats what i feel like he was trying to say..

i just pretty much caught this today.. it seems very key to the movie..


Sorry to burst your bubble, but if you read all 17 pages...everything you just have said has already been covered. I say this because you are bringing up things in the movie like no one has talked about them.

K-


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MRM
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posted 06-11-2003 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xcubetion:
I THINK---everything i previously posted makes kinda answers itself.

BUT what is most interesting on my post is the FRENCH guy and Neo conversation.

THE CAKE---no one seems to talk about this.. just read my posting.. Neo has been eating cookies/candy what if what he receives has something written to it.. 'creating a new line of fate'.. im not exactly sure what he says but thats what i feel like he was trying to say..

i just pretty much caught this today.. it seems very key to the movie..


Neo NEVER eats the candy the oracle gives him in Reloaded (just holds it in his hand). The only time we see him eat in the matrix is when he takes a little bite of the cookie the oracle gives him in the first movie.

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-12-2003 12:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MRM:
Neo NEVER eats the candy the oracle gives him in Reloaded (just holds it in his hand). The only time we see him eat in the matrix is when he takes a little bite of the cookie the oracle gives him in the first movie.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he does eat the red piece of candy. Anyone else?

K-


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jinxDC
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posted 06-12-2003 11:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jinxDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NeoMorph:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he does eat the red piece of candy. Anyone else?

K-


I specifically remember the Oracle eating a piece of the candy (I remember thinking it looked like a red Mike and Ike). But I don't remember Neo eating now that I think of it.

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MRM
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posted 06-12-2003 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This goes deep, so follow me if you will:

The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98".

The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed!

If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo shortly after that initial conversation (a few months after 2-18-98 at most).

Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place between 2-18-98 and 9-18-99. Here's why:

Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).

We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.

In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!

Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now".

One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game.

My guess is that there is no MiM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!

I hope this wasn't too confusing to follow.

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-12-2003 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MRM:
This goes deep, so follow me if you will:
The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed!
I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place between 2-18-98 and 9-18-99. Here's why:
the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.
In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!
Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now".
One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game.

My guess is that there is no MiM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!


My comment for the post above...

You may have hit the nail on the head. There seems to be no holes in this hypothesis. It would be devilishly clever to put the end of all three movie's at the end of the first one.
It also implies the "we have to work together" (man and machine philosphy).
Another scary thought is this would really portray Neo as a christ like character. He dies, then is arisen...leads the people to the new world...all that jazz.

I am going to look for clues into this hypothesis further.

K-

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DoogsDC
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posted 06-13-2003 12:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MRM:
This goes deep, so follow me if you will:

The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98".

The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed!

If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo shortly after that initial conversation (a few months after 2-18-98 at most).

Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place between 2-18-98 and 9-18-99. Here's why:

Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).

We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.

In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!

Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now".

One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game.

My guess is that there is no MiM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!

I hope this wasn't too confusing to follow.


That's so damn good it's creepy. You're one smart dude.

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no. 47
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posted 06-13-2003 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
THE RED PILL

Written By: Benjamin Casper
Co-Written By: Constance Casper
Serial #: 25141-011391-43151-4192011-435

A human Designer created AI (artificial intelligence) without the programming instructions to compute pi (3.14). This was done as a safety measure (anomaly) to ensure human survival over the AI. The anomaly and the solution for it are present in the AI and inherited by everything they create. They are, however, unaware of it and would be unable to comprehend it even if they were aware (see notes-A).

The AI seize control of the planet. They place humans into pods as a new fuel source.

The AI create the program, Architect, to design the Matrix. He is the representation of the Designer. The Architect naturally also doesn’t comprehend that he contains both the anomaly and the solution for it, they having been passed on to him by his AI creators. The Architect designs the first Matrix. In his mathematical computations, it is the vision of perfection. The anomaly and the solution that were sown by the Designer, were imprinted into the Matrix coding language. The first Matrix crashed. Being the humble program that he is, the Architect said the fault lies within the humans. “I gave them too perfect of a Matrix. I will design them a version based on the ‘varying grotesqueries’ of their nature.” It also crashes, he thinks because he has based it on our “imperfection.” He is logical and wants to solve the problem, as he is the caretaker.

An intuitive program, Oracle, was called upon to investigate the problem. The Oracle, being an intuitive program, discovers that the anomaly does not lie within the humans, but within the AI language itself. She realizes the anomaly is in everything the AI has created including the Architect. She also realizes that it is unadvisable to tell the Architect, because he would be unable to comprehend this explanation and this would cause the Matrix to crash.
She informs the Architect that he needs to create a Matrix with choice, and allows him to think it is the humans with the anomaly (see notes-B). She knows that this will create Zion, which she will need. The AI implant a seed of truth in the minds of the humans in the pods, “…a splinter in your mind.” For some, “...driving you mad…,” they require the exit option (red pill/blue pill). Those who don’t accept the reality that is given to them are flushed out of the Matrix and are allowed to form Zion.

Enter, “the One”. The Oracle convinces the Architect to inform the AI that they must recreate the Designer from the genetic level (human being), who is fated to be the One. The Designer created AI in a structure that only he could access and reload. Herein lies the need for the One to reset the anomaly to the default computation.

So the newly created version of the Matrix is calculated, also based on recent human history. At the necessary time in the Matrix, the future One is designed and born. He becomes a computer programmer and designs artificial intelligence. Being the creator of artificial intelligence in the Matrix environment, he contains the solution, the anomaly, and the reload code that serves as a bridge between them (symbolic key). At that point he is contacted by Zion Freedom Fighters who were sent by the Oracle. They free him because allowing him to stay will cause a cascading loop. The Freedom Fighters take him to Zion where he is trained. The Freedom Fighters are contacted by the Oracle to bring him to her. She sets him on the path of becoming the One.

At some point the future One has to die in the Matrix. It’s at this moment that the Matrix sends the future One the unbalanced equation (anomaly), and only the future One will respond with pi (3.14), which opens a symbolic window. The Matrix reloads the future One, which transforms him into the reload code, 101. Now he knows he is the One, because he can see the Matrix encoding. He is the one needed to reload the Matrix, as he has become one with the code.

The One returns to Zion until the Oracle contacts him. He follows her instructions to the Source, where he disseminates the 101 code or reload code. The Matrix is reloaded and the artificial intelligence program that the One has created within the Matrix is deleted, thereby eliminating the chance of a cascading loop. The anomaly resets to the beginning, Zion is destroyed, and the One rebuilds Zion as instructed by the Architect. This cycle repeats five times in this manner.

Then Neo is born into the Matrix. He’s genetically engineered to be the One, version six. He is freed from the Matrix and taken into the Nebuchadnezzar (hovercraft). Events occur as with the previous versions of the Ones- but for Neo its going to be different. This time the Oracle has decided the Matrix will not be reloaded. She accomplishes this by telling Trinity that she will fall in love with the One and Morpheus that he will find the One.

As usual the security protocol Agents are called upon to protect the Matrix and the Source from all. They fight Neo and kill him as with the previous Ones. This time while the question is being asked and the reply given, Trinity kisses him and cements their attachment of love. He is reloaded with the code as before, arises, and knows he’s the One. With his new powers he now fights Agent Smith effortlessly and enters him. This corrupts Agent Smith causing a failure to his program.

Now the sixth destruction of Zion is in progress. The Freedom Fighters of Zion meet to discuss how to prevent it. Smith comes to inform Neo that he has set Smith free. They return to Zion leaving a ship behind to await communication from the Oracle. Smith, no longer an agent of the system, replicates himself into Bane and enters Zion. Neo receives his instructions from the Oracle and goes to meet her. Neo enters a room and encounters Seraph, the Oracle’s protector, who confirms that Neo is the One and takes him to the Oracle. She was late in communicating with Neo because dangerous programs are searching for her, including Smith, who wants, “everything.” She had also been inquiring about the missing Keymaker who Neo will need to get to the Source. On the surface the Oracle is fulfilling her usual role, her purpose, so as not to be deleted. She’s saying and doing what she’s always said and done, except for subtly pulling information out of Neo. She wants to know if Neo sees Trinity die after he enters the Door of Light in his dream (the Oracle can not see past this door). He did not. The Oracle now knows that Neo will choose to save Trinity instead of reloading the Matrix. She has succeeded!! She says no more about this and proceeds to tell Neo where the Keymaker is. She hands Neo instructions for a place and time to meet the Merovingian who has abducted the Keymaker.

The Oracle makes a hasty exit, as Smith is approaching. Smith wants revenge. He wants to take from Neo what was stolen from him, purpose. Neo learns that Smith has replicated himself many times, and he tries to replicate himself into Neo but fails. Smith has an arduous time trying to beat Neo, so Smith recruits more replications. Neo reaches a point where there are too many Smiths to fight and feels compelled to leave.

Neo exits the Matrix and returns to the Nebuchadnezzar where he assembles the crew to go visit the Merovingian and obtain the Keymaker. Then Neo and the crew enter the Matrix once again. They follow the Oracle’s instructions and journey to the Merovingian. They speak with him and he declines to hand over the Keymaker. As they are leaving without the Keymaker, the elevator door opens on a different floor, and there stands the Merovingian’s wife, Persephone. She offers to give them the Keymaker in exchange for a kiss from Neo. He kisses her and she leads them to the Keymaker. The Keymaker states, “I have been waiting for you,” and starts to leave with them. As the Merovingian returns to see what Persephone has done, a fight ensues. Morpheus and Trinity escape with the Keymaker in tow. Neo is forced to fly to the center of the city to save Morpheus and the Keymaker from Agents. They meet with other Freedom Fighters in the Matrix, close to the Source, and the Keymaker instructs them on how to gain entry to the Source.

The Freedom Fighters follow the Keymaker’s instructions. Neo, Morpheus, and the Keymaker find themselves in a hallway where they run into replicated Smiths. A fight occurs and during the 314 seconds when the symbolic window is open, the Keymaker opens the door. Neo enters and stands before the Door of Light. He inserts his key, which was given to him by the Keymaker and is instantly transported to the Architect.

Neo stands before the Architect who proceeds to ramble on about the imperfection of humanity and his own perfection. He tells Neo that Trinity has entered the Matrix to sacrifice her life to save Neo’s life. Then he gives Neo the choice between two doors. The first door leads to, “the Source and the salvation of Zion” (meaning Neo will have to rebuild it). The Matrix is reloaded and the anomaly is reset to the default computation. This is the door chosen by all of the previous Ones. The second door leads “back to the Matrix, to her (to Trinity and the chance to save her), and to the end of your species,” as not reloading the Matrix will crash the system, killing not only Zion but also the humans living in the Matrix.

As a non-intuitive program, the Architect is distanced from the outcome. However he makes one more attempt to influence Neo to reload the Matrix, as the Architect is designed to sustain the Matrix. Neo exits through the second door and tries to save Trinity’s life. He arrests her plummet toward the ground to no avail. She dies from a gunshot wound inflicted by the Agents, however, Neo resuscitates Trinity by infusing her with the reload code.

Neo and Trinity exit the Matrix and return to the Nebuchadnezzar. Neo informs Morpheus that Zion will be destroyed in 24 hours and that the Oracle’s prophecy was a lie. “The one was never meant to end anything. It was just another system of control.” The sentinels destroy the Nebuchadnezzar, but as the crew flees Neo exclaims, “Something’s different. I can feel them.” He turns to face the sentinels, extends his arm, and releases a pulse of energy destroying them. Neo collapses and falls into a coma. A hovercraft rescues them and then we see Neo and Bane (Smith replication) lying on two separate gurneys in the medical bay, as Bane is in a coma also. TO BE CONCLUDED.... An electronic device can contain a question and an answer, and not be able to bridge the two without a key or a password. For example, an electronic lock contains the password 1138 (solution). It also contains the question allowing you to type in the password (solution). Due to its parameters it is unable to bridge the question and the password (solution), even though it contains both. It requires someone to introduce the password (solution). This acts as the bridge between the two.


This is the issue the Oracle is having with the Architect:


Example: Imagine you are at work. Your boss comes in and tells you to solve a problem. You find out your boss is wrong about the source of the problem but you cannot tell him he is wrong. You are forced to solve the problem anyway. What’s worse, you still need your boss’s help to solve the problem.

The Oracle needs to find a way to fix the Matrix anomaly for the Architect. She believes that the AI have this anomaly also. She must use the AI to begin the process, while allowing the Architect to believe they are fixing a human anomaly. Therefore the Oracle allows the Architect to believe the anomaly is in the humans and that they are rejecting the Matrix. She allows him to believe that the humans are causing the unbalanced equation (anomaly).


Example: Your problem is how do you get your boss to help you to solve the problem when you can’t tell him the true source of the problem. The only solution is to make him believe that what he is doing is solving the problem the way he sees it. When, actually, what he is doing is solving the true problem and he never knows it.

The Oracle tells the Architect she requires a One (the Designer) in flesh and blood form to correct the anomaly. Simulations will not work in this instance. She requires Zion to be created to remove the One from the Matrix and to train him. She tells the Architect that to fix the “human” anomaly, he needs to give the humans the illusion of choice. So a, “splinter in your mind,” of “something wrong with the world,” is implanted into the minds of the humans on a, “near unconscious level.” She tells him this will lessen the pace of the anomaly growth but this is a lie.

The Oracle tells the Architect that some will still not accept the Matrix and to release them, not to kill them because she needs them for Zion (which she covertly stays in contact with once it is formed). She emphasizes to the Architect that the AI need to create the flesh and blood One to reload the Matrix (to correct the supposed human-caused unbalanced equation).

The Architect believes this reloading is fixing the human-caused
anomaly. It is actually fixing the anomaly injected by the AI when the Matrix was constructed. NOTES: Copyright and Legal Notices:

Matrix COPYRIGHT 1999-2002 - Time Warner Entertainment Co.

This Document is the property of Ben & Constance Casper.

Permission is granted to distribute in a public forum as long
as this document is always completely intact. Any other use requires the personal authorization of the authors. Contact: reload101matrix@hotmail.com

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-13-2003 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Reply to the post below...

OMG...where did you get that? That seems totally legit! My props to you...

K-

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MRM
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posted 06-13-2003 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NeoMorph,

One thing that may put a whole in my earlier post is if the phone call scene is replayed in any of the architect's screens at the end of Reloaded. If you have the movie or see it again, pay close attention to this scene and let me know if you explicitly see Neo make that phonecall.

otherwise, it's still possible

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Xcubetion
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posted 06-14-2003 02:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xcubetion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MRM:
This goes deep, so follow me if you will:

The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98".

The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed!

If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo shortly after that initial conversation (a few months after 2-18-98 at most).

Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place between 2-18-98 and 9-18-99. Here's why:

Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).

We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.

In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!

Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now".

One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game.

My guess is that there is no MiM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!

I hope this wasn't too confusing to follow.



What you said is actually very real. I can go with your thesis on this one.

Also your right that Neo seems to be finding for a purpose on RELOADED..see seems to be still lost.. compared to his final words on Matrix 1 where he seemed to be the one in control.....The green coding is the Matrix.. on Matrix 1 the codes stop falling and it says "System Failure". Remember the system IS the matrix.

Also is there more behind the new characters like the kid that they met up with on Zion.. people keep saying watch ANIMATRIX but is the Animatrix supposed to be connected with THE movie? (I know animatrix is connected story-wise but movie-wise?)..if i was an individual that just follows that movies then i would be lost thinking about that kids and their 'connection' just seems strong like the know each other when he wasn't properly introduced. Saying things like "you freed yourself" from the matrix..

***Some other answer i got for some people who wonder about Matrix 1 on how the agents was forcing morpheus for information when he was captured..Why they needed morpheus*****

--In the first matrix, Agents wanted to get the keys to Zions ships.. meaning a quicker or shortcut to destroying Zion kinda like software wise... but as seen in reloaded it seems like the machines are physically just going to destroy Zion--


[This message has been edited by Xcubetion (edited 06-14-2003).]

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Pansonic
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posted 06-14-2003 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pansonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think, that what you call the "real" world is just another Matrix. The Matrix of the first two parts of "Matrix" is in another Matrix, that s in another Matrix and so on... That s the reason why Neo can stop the Virii by holding his hands up in the last scenes of Reloaded. He did not download any program into "the real world" but took his experiences from one level of the Matrix to the next higher level of the Matrix. That would mean, that it could be possible to "wake up" also from that world, that was originally (in part I & II) supposed to be the "real world". So: the W brothers ve made a plot they could play with util infinity (and beyond). That s the reason why there are games setted up in 2006 or sth, because: time doesn t matter. There s no outcome out of the Matrix, because it has no end. You can wake up from one level like from a bad dream and you can wake up again and feel as if you ve dreamt that you ve dreamt, but you can also wake up again and think you dreamt that you dreamt that you dreamt...and so on.

Does anybody know Marshall McLuhan, by the way? He s been writing in the 60ies and they ve taken most of the theory basics from him. This is what mcluhan wrote about the world we are living in right now and actually it s not as utopic as it sounds (although the W brothers used it as plot for a "fictional" movie): "The true rulers of the earth are independent machines. Humans serve them only as enslaved "batteries"."

Think about it. Your computer needs you (to put him on), your computer changes you (by manipulating your contact to the world). And by the way: you re all slaves of movie-theory and slaves of movie-industry, too! Wake Up! Go out and eat some ice-cream.

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RelajadoYa
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posted 06-14-2003 03:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RelajadoYa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Something that confused me in Reloaded:

Persephone says that her husband(Merovingian)'s guards are old rogue programs that are especially "ruthless". I took this to mean that they are old Agent versions, that were supposed to be deleted, but stayed, like Smith. So, although they are no longer bound by the system rules, they are still very old programming.

My question is this: Why does Neo take such a long time, and seems to have trouble fighting these guys (in the Big Hall)? He had no trouble fighting the 3 agents in the beginning, and fought off 70+ or however many Smiths - and both these are much newer programming. So why couldn't he really easily beat the hell out of Merovingian's guards?

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system_matic
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posted 06-14-2003 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for system_matic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well sorry to say but they do show Neo making the phone call at the end of the first Matrix. I shows him within the first 3 minutes of his conversation with the architect. showing him when he is done talking and looks at the phone. it does not show him hang it up. i really don't know if this will put a hole in your theroy. but just like Karl Popper i can only disprove you, i can not prove your theroy.
quote:
Originally posted by MRM:
NeoMorph,

One thing that may put a whole in my earlier post is if the phone call scene is replayed in any of the architect's screens at the end of Reloaded. If you have the movie or see it again, pay close attention to this scene and let me know if you explicitly see Neo make that phonecall.

otherwise, it's still possible


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MRM
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posted 06-14-2003 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by system_matic:
well sorry to say but they do show Neo making the phone call at the end of the first Matrix. I shows him within the first 3 minutes of his conversation with the architect. showing him when he is done talking and looks at the phone. it does not show him hang it up. i really don't know if this will put a hole in your theroy. but just like Karl Popper i can only disprove you, i can not prove your theroy.

I'm not following you.. what do you mean "sorry to say but they do show Neo making the phone call at the end of the first Matrix"? ofcourse they do...

your second point, if true, (meaning they show Neo making that phone call on the architect's screens) kills my theory since I proposed that the scene occurs after revolutions and would not have yet occured in Reloaded - but this needs to be validated.

Has anyone recently seen Reloaded? was the phonecall scene displayed on any of the architect's screens?

if you're planning to see it again, pay attention!

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-14-2003 09:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To MRM...basically system-matic said that in the first 3 minutes of the Neo - Architect scene, it shows him talking on the phone (the final scene in M1). I have not caught the movie again so I don't know if it's true, but it may be true.

To RelajadoYa, The "old" programs were built on different rules. Like the vampire and ghost programs, they are harder to kill. Neo also has never fought these types of progams before. Pretty simple...

To Pansonic, I *think* that the MiM idea is stupid. It would be a cheap and meaningless way to end a movie and I don't *think* the W. Bros would do that, because its been done like that too often.

Everyone read No. 47's post. It sounds credible and puts the MiM idea (not theory) down the toilet.

K-

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-14-2003 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The designer...(partly copied from No. 47 post)

Human designer created AI, but with a fail safe.
AI created the Architect program, a designer of the Matrix.

quote:
The Oracle convinces the Architect to inform the AI that they must recreate the Designer from the genetic level (human being), who is fated to be the One. The Designer created AI in a structure that only he could access and reload. Herein lies the need for the One to reset the anomaly to the default computation.


Ok, this is one reason why Neo is the One, he was created genetically (not a program) to be the One. His purpose was to reload the Matrix. He has gifts because he was created that way.

quote:
At the necessary time in the Matrix, the future One is designed and born. He becomes a computer programmer and designs artificial intelligence. Being the creator of artificial intelligence in the Matrix environment, he contains the solution, the anomaly, and the reload code that serves as a bridge between them (symbolic key)

Ok, here is another important part

quote:
At some point the future One has to die in the Matrix. It’s at this moment that the Matrix sends the future One the unbalanced equation (anomaly), and only the future One will respond with pi (3.14), which opens a symbolic window. The Matrix reloads the future One, which transforms him into the reload code, 101. Now he knows he is the One, because he can see the Matrix encoding. He is the one needed to reload the Matrix, as he has become one with the code.

Makes perfect sense. Read that post.

K-

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