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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
havenfx
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posted 06-14-2003 11:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for havenfx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i dont know if you guys are in awe of the diction used in that long post by no. 47 which he copied from somewhere else but if you can actaully comprehend it..then you would realize that the post is not a theory. it is just an overly-complicated way to explain the end

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RwD
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posted 06-15-2003 06:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a hard time with the theory in no. 47's post. here's why:

To create images in any way, like those inside the matrix, don't you need pi? don't the people inside the matrix know pi? Don't the machines because we know?

Or am I just reading it wrong and do the machines have pi??

------
Xcubetion-> The machines can't kill Zion software wise. why do the zion people need to get out of Zion to get into the matrix??
Well: because zion is not connected in any way (or so it seems)

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explosive
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posted 06-15-2003 07:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for explosive     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Firstly, System-matic: why are you sorry that it doesn't show it ? If it doesn't show that, it means it HASN'T happened yet, therefor strengthening that theory even more.

Secondly, i have the matrix reloaded on my computer and i can say that it does NOT show the phone scene during the meeting with the architect.

Who here has played Enter the Matrix ?
because it reveals some plot which is very interesting.
Things such as:
- Ghost is in love with Trinity
- The oracle sais that Niobe will have an important role in the end. "The path of the one is made possible by us."
- Cane DOES in fact kill Soren's crew.
- The oracle states that Neo is trapped in a world created in his own mind now "somewhere between reality and the matrix." (by the way, the new actress who plays the oracle is absolute shite compared to the original one... shame)

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Deep Cover
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posted 06-15-2003 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deep Cover     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd be very interested in knowing the provenance of No 47's post. The disclaimer would imply that I'd be able to find it in other places, but I've tried Googling a variety of key words and phrases from it without success in finding it anywhere else.

I'd be very disappointed if, in the end, the plot turned on the program not comprehending Pi. That would be pretty weak. I've been holding out for the Matrix's ultimate flaw being implied in Godel's Incompleteness Theorum. [There is no such thing as a complete rules system because no rules system can encompass the following statement: "The rules system does not describe this statement".]

The W Bros strike me as the types who would have read "Godel, Escher, Bach" and who might have incorporated the idea of incompleteness to explain why it's impossible to build the perfect Matrix.

My apologies if that idea has been floated here before. I just couldn't bring myself to plow back through 17 pages of posts.

[This message has been edited by Deep Cover (edited 06-15-2003).]

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-15-2003 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RwD:
[B]To create images in any way, like those inside the matrix, don't you need pi? don't the people inside the matrix know pi? Don't the machines because we know?

Or am I just reading it wrong and do the machines have pi??


To understand, you have to know what Pi is. Pi in itself is an "anamoly" of mathematics. Pi just keeps continuing on and on, there is no end to it or any pattern it follows. If the designer never program the machines to understand Pi (and anamoly or flaw), they wouldn't. We as humans tells machines everyday how to function, thus only the machine will understand what we have programmed into them.

""To create images in any way, like those inside the matrix, don't you need pi?""
Pi is an anamoly of mathematics, so it exists. Pi only comes into play when certain circumstances, or equations come into play.

""don't the people inside the matrix know pi? Don't the machines know because we know?""
We know emotions, and know how to love, but the machines do not understand emotions. So we can know things and experience things that the machines cannot. You have to think like a mathematician to some point. Write n equation for love...can you? You can only set love into motion, you cannot just make someone love another.


And to whoever said the Pi explanation would be a weak ending...why??? It would explain most everything talked about here.

K-


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NeoMorph
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posted 06-15-2003 07:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To make this a little more simple.

Machines think like their code - 0 off and 1 on. It's either black or white, off or on.
If you had programed a machine to smile when you told a joke, then it would smile not because it was funny - just because it was told to smile when you told the joke.

Now try and tell a machine that is based on 1's and 0's to understand an equation (Pi) that is not perfect, exact, or just makes any mathematical sense. And I am not talking about calculators here. :>

K-

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system_matic
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posted 06-15-2003 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for system_matic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yes it does show it. i have the dvd and it shows it on 2 different screens. right in the middle of the screen, second from the bottom and then after that one 2 above it. it happens when he show all of Neo's actions. you should watch it agian.

quote:
Originally posted by explosive:
Firstly, System-matic: why are you sorry that it doesn't show it ? If it doesn't show that, it means it HASN'T happened yet, therefor strengthening that theory even more.

Secondly, i have the matrix reloaded on my computer and i can say that it does NOT show the phone scene during the meeting with the architect.

Who here has played Enter the Matrix ?
because it reveals some plot which is very interesting.
Things such as:
- Ghost is in love with Trinity
- The oracle sais that Niobe will have an important role in the end. "The path of the one is made possible by us."
- Cane DOES in fact kill Soren's crew.
- The oracle states that Neo is trapped in a world created in his own mind now "somewhere between reality and the matrix." (by the way, the new actress who plays the oracle is absolute shite compared to the original one... shame)


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BreadedPeanut
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posted 06-16-2003 12:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BreadedPeanut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have to agree with system_matic, I watched Reloaded again the other night, and it does indeed show the scene in The Matrix of Neo hanging up the phone while he is in the Architect's room. I really liked that theory though MRM, it was damn good.


quote:
Originally posted by system_matic:
yes it does show it. i have the dvd and it shows it on 2 different screens. right in the middle of the screen, second from the bottom and then after that one 2 above it. it happens when he show all of Neo's actions. you should watch it agian.


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cfol
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posted 06-16-2003 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Firstly, I think MRMs theory is brilliant... not looked into it all to see how the facts stand (particularly the dates), but I'm presuming all what you said stands up. Nice one..!

I don't understand why everyone thinks that because the phone scene from M1 was shown on a monitor in the Architects room, this theory should be dismissed. The monitors also show trinity falling, before it happens... If this theory is to dismissed, then I think more is needed than the 'it's on the monitor in the architects room, hence it's already happened' argument.

Secondly.. I think more attention should be given to the fact that the Matrix Online game will come out next year, with the Matrix very much intact... the W Bros obviously don't believe this news to be a significant spoiler for Revolutions... so it seems the Matrix will carry on existing... the key here is why? See M3 for details I guess.

Now, i'm starting to get worried that some of what i've read will spoil M3 for me.. but most probably the views i've digested from this board will just help me understand it, as they have M2. I just get the feeling that one thing is missing from the films so far... and that is the reaction of the Matrix accepting masses to the news and subsequent 'evidence' that their world is an illusion... that's what M1 seemed to promise us. These scenes would truly connect the story to our own experience by trying to portray what the reaction would be if this kind of thing appeared on the news today. 'MAN FLIES UNAIDED AFTER PROCLAIMING REALITY IS AN ILLUSION' This, along with subsequent 'miracles' would make great viewing, would be interesting from the Neo / Christ analogy point of view, and could add much extra spice to the story both inside and outside the matrix (with the knowledge that it's possible for humans to extract themselves - Kid).

Just speculation, but it seemed to be Neo's intention at the end of M1, and was clearly avoided in M2. We certainly didn't appear to see the fallout of a system failure... wasn't even mentioned as having happened.

Sh*t... I change my mind about how this will all go every time I look at this site...! Not many films have had this effect on me, and I still get the feeling M3 will thow up plenty we haven't thought of yet...

cfol

[This message has been edited by cfol (edited 06-16-2003).]

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MRM
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posted 06-16-2003 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cfol:

I don't understand why everyone thinks that because the phone scene from M1 was shown on a monitor in the Architects room, this theory should be dismissed. The monitors also show trinity falling, before it happens... If this theory is to dismissed, then I think more is needed than the 'it's on the monitor in the architects room, hence it's already happened' argument.


Nice observation cfol!

but there seems to be some contradiction among folks here. If anyone does have reloaded, can they post a screen capture with the phone call scene shown in the architect's screens?

I'd also like to add that we know the W brothers are detail freaks. Why go to the trouble of highlighting two dates in the first movie, that by themselves are unimportant, but then make every effort to avoid showing the relative timeframe in Reloaded (i.e. not one single date in the entire movie!).

Does anyone else think this is odd?

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BreadedPeanut
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posted 06-16-2003 01:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BreadedPeanut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice observation, indeed. My only thought for the Architect having an image of Trinity falling on his monitor is that when Neo entered his room, The Architect downloaded his thoughts (and dreams) from him. And since Neo dreamed about her death, that would work.

And yes, the dates are interesting in M1. It could be something significant, but it could just be the time it took for everything to happen. The first scene with Trinity took place, and then Neo getting the message on his computer could have been months later, as well as him being awoken. His training, too, could've taken a long time, as well as Morpheous' taking his time to take Neo to the Oracle.

But then again, I don't know, when I watch it, it all feels like it takes place reasonably close together, does it not? Neo's hair in the real world, for example, doesn't grow out very much.

Who knows, just some random thoughts here.


quote:
Originally posted by MRM:

Nice observation cfol!

but there seems to be some contradiction among folks here. If anyone does have reloaded, can they post a screen capture with the phone call scene shown in the architect's screens?

I'd also like to add that we know the W brothers are detail freaks. Why go to the trouble of highlighting two dates in the first movie, that by themselves are unimportant, but then make every effort to avoid showing the relative timeframe in Reloaded (i.e. not one single date in the entire movie!).

Does anyone else think this is odd?


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cfol
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posted 06-16-2003 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Since this is all speculation, it's easy to play devils advocate... nothing can be proved until the final film is out. The ideas here have been good though.

Just wondering if we can say for definate that there are no time references in Reloaded...? What about any of the scenes where hacking was performed within the Matrix?

I'd love to see how they would portray the mass population reacting to the truth though... Suppose the reaction will be limited if everyones A Smith though.!

Toodle pip.

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BreadedPeanut
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posted 06-16-2003 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BreadedPeanut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alright, here is my theory for the end of Revolutions..

Neo is going to wake up at his computer like in the first movie, but no "Knock, Knock, Neo" and whatever. Everybody he knows in the real world is going to be somebody he knows in the Matrix ala Wizard of Oz.

Morpheous is going to be his garbage man, Jerry.

The Oracle is going to be his landlady, Shawanda, whom he helps take out his garbage..

Trinity will be a part time student at a local computer school Neo attends, and in her spare time she operates Rotten.com.

Smith will be his creditor. "You're late on your taxes, Mr. Anderson.."

Tank will be the guy on his street corner who sells hot dogs, and will be known as "Tank the Frank"

Link will turn out to be an internal creation of his obbsesion to be friends with Chris Rock.

The Keymaker will be the guy who runs the hardware shop down the street. He's pretty handy with paint mixing.

That's all of them that I can think of for now..


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MRM
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posted 06-16-2003 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BreadedPeanut:
Alright, here is my theory for the end of Revolutions..

Neo is going to wake up at his computer like in the first movie, but no "Knock, Knock, Neo" and whatever. Everybody he knows in the real world is going to be somebody he knows in the Matrix ala Wizard of Oz.

Morpheous is going to be his garbage man, Jerry.

The Oracle is going to be his landlady, Shawanda, whom he helps take out his garbage..

Trinity will be a part time student at a local computer school Neo attends, and in her spare time she operates Rotten.com.

Smith will be his creditor. "You're late on your taxes, Mr. Anderson.."

Tank will be the guy on his street corner who sells hot dogs, and will be known as "Tank the Frank"

Link will turn out to be an internal creation of his obbsesion to be friends with Chris Rock.

The Keymaker will be the guy who runs the hardware shop down the street. He's pretty handy with paint mixing.

That's all of them that I can think of for now..


worst ending ever

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Deep Cover
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posted 06-16-2003 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deep Cover     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NeoMorph:
And to whoever said the Pi explanation would be a weak ending...why??? It would explain most everything talked about here.
K-

The Pi explanation would be weak because, in literary terms, it's a deus ex machina ending. It's the cinematic equivalent of saying, "The butler did it!"

The first sentence of 47's post states: "A human Designer created AI (artificial intelligence) without the programming instructions to compute pi (3.14)." There is no fact, or extrapolation of fact, presented in the first movie, which leads to this statement. If this, or any similar, explanation of the flaw in the Matrix is provided in the Third Act, that's as intellectually dishonest as the mystery writer who introduces clues or characters essential to solving the mystery only in the final chapter. There's a difference between a magician hiding the ball and the ball never having been onstage in the first place.

Now, a strong ending is one that flows naturally from the material presented thus far, but which only remains hidden because all the connections between the threads are not drawn yet. If the final act of the Matrix is honest, it will simply tie together what we've seen, not spring surprise endings on us through the late introduction of essential facts.

Contrary to what you and others have posted here, there is nothing mathematically anomolous about Pi, simply because it's calculation extends into infinity. There are any number of mathematical functions that extend into infinity. In fact, anyone familiar with the programming of AI knows that dealing with infinity is a constant theme of such programming. Recursive funtions (that is--functions which are self-referential) always involve infinite recursions. Recursive functions would be an essential feature of any self-aware AI. The trick in programming AI is defining for the program where to bottom out in following the infinitely recursive loop.

There are two ways to define this, either by: (i) brute force, which is defining a stopping point based on the passage of time, or number of calculations performed, or some other definately determinable factor; or (ii) providing a path out of the infinite loop which is non-self referential, and therefore, non-recursive.

Limitations on calculating power generally cause programmers to choose option (i). One could also analogize between the 'perfect world' Matrix described by Agent Smith, and option (i). The 'perfect world' Matrix was a Matrix of extremely limited reality, with harshly defined boundaries. Taking as true, for a moment, Agent Smith's representation that humanity rejected that Matrix, the question would be, "why?". Smith proffers two possible explanations: that machines couldn't describe a perfect human world, or that mankind was inherently flawed. But the second movie provides a third possible explanation: that mankind has freewill and that freewill cannot abide such arbitrary limits and definitions of reality. [Freewill is what gets mankind thrown out of Eden.]

That philosophical explanation is more in keeping with the spirit of these movies. It also happens that the explanation is more logical from the POV of how to program AI. The alternative to limiting infinity by brute force is to limit it by providing one action path out of the loop. This provides human beings an opportunity to exercise freewill (the nearly infinite variety of choices within the loop), while remaining trapped within the Matrix.

Sooner or later, however, with billions of humans making billions of choices, a human is going to find his way out of the loop. Logically and mathematically, this is inevitable. Godell's Incompleteness Theorum elegantly states that there can be no such thing as an absolutely comprehensive mathematical rule set. No rule set can encompass the following rule: "this rule is not encompassed in the set of rules". Ultimately, you're always going to discover something outside the rule set. People who discover that truth leave the first Matrix.

Now, I say leave the *first* Matrix, because you can always create a second Matrix wrapped around the first, just as you can create a larger rule set which encompasses the previous rule set, plus *that* rule, but then, one can postulate a new rule statement: "this rule is not contained in the larger rule set". Ad infinitum. Oops. Infinity just intruded again. Can't have infinite Matrix's any more than the universe can be "turtles all the way down". But there's a way around *that*. You create a path out of all nested Matrix's (so the loop can, hypothetically, close).

The odds of any human treading that path are infinitessimally small. But when you're dealing with near infinite repetitions of choice, even ifinitessimally small chances get rather large. So someone is going to tread that path from time to time. Let's call that someone, oh I dunno, "Neo". The machines are aware that Neo is going to appear sooner or later. One might even say, he's destined to appear. But even if he's destined to appear, he still has one critical choice to make: to walk that path that takes him completely outside of all nested Matrix's, or to choose the path that takes him back into the Matrix. If you're the machines, and you're worthy of being called AI, you come up with a plan--a scheme to influence the free choice of the One--to turn the One away from the path of freedom and back towards the path that keeps mankind trapped inside the Matrix.

In fact, we are now told that our Neo is Neo v6.0. We can postulate that the Matrix survives despite the appearance of the first 6 Neos by influencing, each in turn, their exercise of freewill to turn from the path. (Ironically, they appear to do this, in part, by denying the existence of freewill to The One).

Is this the way the movie will go down? Who knows? But this is (IMHO) an elegant progression of the plot which doesn't involve the introduction of third act surprises or elements extraneous to the themes and philosophies of the plot (which the "they don't know Pi" explanation does). All it does is extend on the themes of the first two acts. It also makes the nature of the antagonist (the AIs) an essential element of the solution to mankind's dilemma. It affirms the philosophy of freewill. It also affirms Neo's status as mankind's savior. [How could we call him a savior if mankind is saved by the Pi trick?] It also allows for the ending wherein the Matrix is not destroyed, but rather that Neo will, by having identified the True Path, now be capable of leading humans completely out of their bondage by showing them the true path. The trick is that each and every person, in order to be saved, must believe in Neo enough to walk the true path. Must, in fact, exercise the free will to choose to be saved.

Now *that's* an ending that would affirm everything the movies are about, without resort to cheap tricks.

[This message has been edited by Deep Cover (edited 06-16-2003).]

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explosive
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posted 06-17-2003 01:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for explosive     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
my friend said he saw a clip from speed in the architect monitors ... i think he's full of shit though.

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cfol
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posted 06-17-2003 07:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Deep Cover...

I think you need to mail your last post to Neo..! He appears to need some help understanding why he's made the choices he's made. Great post..!

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MRM
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posted 06-17-2003 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Deep Cover:
Contrary to what you and others have posted here, there is nothing mathematically anomolous about Pi, simply because it's calculation extends into infinity. [This message has been edited by Deep Cover (edited 06-16-2003).]

I didn't read your entire post, but the quote above sums it all up. Pi is not a profund discovery at all, and any 'AI' would come to that realization. Heck, we learned it in 4th grade!

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RwD
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posted 06-17-2003 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Neomorph->
You are so lame... one doesn't pi need to understand in order to use pi. And by that same token I could say that although you can use pi I think that you don't really understand it.

So where is the advantage in this all for mankind? The machines obviously use pi, and probably can calculate it filling a library full of digits. At the very least because we can....

I cannot write n equations for love, but if you had seen 'matrix reloaded' you would have known that the merovingian can
Besides, it is a fact that people in love have a hightend level of certain chemicals in their blood (I believe MDA is one of them) so that can be put into a function

And Pi doesn't explain anything... Can you explain, in your own words, anything that has happend in M1 or M2 without stepping into speculations? and you cannot use anything that did not come from M1, M2, AniM or EnterM.

I don't think you can...

Deep Cover->
please drop the matrix in matrix idea. I recall somebody posting that keanu reeves said that was not going to happen because that would be stupid

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Deep Cover
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posted 06-17-2003 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deep Cover     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RwD:
Deep Cover->
please drop the matrix in matrix idea. I recall somebody posting that keanu reeves said that was not going to happen because that would be stupid

One man's trash is another man's treasure, RwD. I happen to think that playing with the idea is fun, and my sense of play does not turn on knowing that it will/will not actually turn out that way.

Even if I were inclined to give dispositive weight to third-hand reports of actor interviews, that Keanu Reeves reportedly thinks something is stupid would not, as a general rule, serve as an absolute rebuttle to any proposition. The lead singer of Dogstar is not noted for his contributions to the fields of artificial intelligence, logic, philosophy or theology. I'll take my chances pitting my intellect against his on any subject.

You miss the mark in dismissing my post as MiM theory and nothing more. Infinite loop paradoxes (which is what the Revolutions script hints is at the center of the Big Secret) are a staple of science fiction writing. [If we eliminated all such stories as 'stupid', I think we'd have about 20% fewer Star Trek episodes, though I concede some would regard that as progress.] I advanced a hypothetical plot development and resolution that turns on the infinite loop paradox created when one attempts to define a perfect, self-contained universe of rules. One feature of such a problem is the idea of nested realities, but it isn't the central point. The central point is in finding the solution that frees oneself from the loop.

There are any number of ways that one could develop and resolve the plotlines given us to date. It will be interesting to see if the manner in which it is finally, actually done reflects that the W Bros understand any of that stuff they like to read

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RelajadoYa
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posted 06-17-2003 03:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RelajadoYa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MRM posted a theory that the last scene in M1 actually takes place after Reloaded and Revolutions. I think its a real creative idea, but don't think its possible because of Neo's flying.

Neo being able to fly is central to the plot in Reloaded, saving Morpheus and Trinity from death while flying. We first see that Neo has learned to fly at the end of M1 right before the credits roll. It sets the grounds for him to be able to fly in Reloaded, so I think this establishes it happening before the events of Reloaded.

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MRM
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posted 06-17-2003 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RelajadoYa:
MRM posted a theory that the last scene in M1 actually takes place after Reloaded and Revolutions. I think its a real creative idea, but don't think its possible because of Neo's flying.

Neo being able to fly is central to the plot in Reloaded, saving Morpheus and Trinity from death while flying. We first see that Neo has learned to fly at the end of M1 right before the credits roll. It sets the grounds for him to be able to fly in Reloaded, so I think this establishes it happening before the events of Reloaded.



how does this disprove the theory? Regardless of when the phone call takes place, we are still privy to the last scene in M1 which establishes Neo's ability to fly. but that phone call can still take place at the end of revolutions...

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WRLunatic
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posted 06-17-2003 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WRLunatic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello once again,
As usual I have enjoyed the discussions here. I had asked earlier about the discussion between Trinity and Cypher a few pages back and teh operator for Cypher when talking to Agent Smith. (Still not sure if that may not come back later)
As we have seen in M2, the bank of monitors in M1 was from the Arcitects room; perhaps watching the progress of Neo. Does anyone think there is signifigance to the person being led away from the resturant prior to the dicussion with the Merovingian? If in M3 Neo has been disconnected from his body (the Naiobi / Oracle discussion from the game) and Trinity has to fight through hell to get him back, could Neo be captive by the Merovingian? Could the person being led away from the table Bane? (The real Bane after Agent Smith overwrote him) Would it fit the pattern of the W brothers? (small glimps into the next chapter)

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Leecher
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posted 06-18-2003 12:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Leecher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm sure there's some significance to the guy being escorted away. It looks like he makes eye contact with Neo. Whether it's Bane or not, I'm not sure. His hair looks longer in the restaurant than Bane's did both at the end of the movie and when Smith overwrote him, I think.

Here's a couple other questions I have. Remember when Neo's done fighting the 3 agents toward the beginning of the movie and he's off doing his "Superman thing"? He enters that building looking for someone, because he says something like "Where are you?". Does anyone know who he's looking for?

Also when Neo's talking to the Architect the monitors show Neo in the room talking to the Architect. Sometimes the monitors reflect Neo's movements and sometimes he's moving or talking and the Neos in the monitors are motionless. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or am I over-analyzing?

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BreadedPeanut
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posted 06-18-2003 12:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BreadedPeanut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The room Neo visits is The Oracle's apartment from M1, so the next logical answer is that he is looking for The Oracle.

And I'm not sure there is any significant to the apparent still Neos, the Architect may simple just have the video feeds 'paused' until he reacts, I'm not sure.

quote:
Originally posted by Leecher:
Here's a couple other questions I have. Remember when Neo's done fighting the 3 agents toward the beginning of the movie and he's off doing his "Superman thing"? He enters that building looking for someone, because he says something like "Where are you?". Does anyone know who he's looking for?

Also when Neo's talking to the Architect the monitors show Neo in the room talking to the Architect. Sometimes the monitors reflect Neo's movements and sometimes he's moving or talking and the Neos in the monitors are motionless. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or am I over-analyzing?


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Revolution
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posted 06-19-2003 05:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Revolution     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
merowinger cant be one of the ONES because he said that he had survived all the previous ONES (he says that to Neo after he had killed all his bodyguards).

but I thought some time ago persephgone is a prevoious trinity and trinity is of course the doughter of the mother and father of the matrix - but just some weird thought

[This message has been edited by Revolution (edited 06-19-2003).]

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MRM
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posted 06-19-2003 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MRM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Revolution:

...and trinity is of course the doughter of the mother and father of the matrix


no offense intended, but I love how people say things like 'ofcourse' so and so is this or that. There is no proof that supports your statement

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enigma667
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posted 06-20-2003 03:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for enigma667     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So if Neo is the one and Trinity is the holy 3 then who is the 2 ?

Maybe revolutions will feature Bruce Boxlitner and Michelle Pfieffer reprising their roles from Tron

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RelajadoYa
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posted 06-20-2003 05:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RelajadoYa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I saw Reloaded again today and noticed some new stuff. Sorry if its already been said.

1) There was an article posted about a week ago called "The Red Pill". It talks about how human programmers made AI flawed by not allowing it to calculate pi, how Neo carries the reload code "101" etc. There are several "101" references in Reloaded- Merovingian's restaurant is on floor 101, the exit to the freeway is Exit 101. Maybe just a coincidence, I dont know.

2) Several times, characters ingest programming in the form of food. In M1, Neo eats the cookie the Oracle gives him, and in Reloaded, she gives him candy. Merovingian also orders the girl orgasmic cake. Well, right before Persephone kisses Neo, she puts on lipstick. It's clearly a different shade then the one she has on, and (I think) theres an electronic-like sound when she kisses Neo. So, like the Oracle's cookies/candy, I think Persephone's lipstick is new programming given to Neo by kissing him.

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NeoMorph
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posted 06-21-2003 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RwD:
Neomorph->
You are so lame... one doesn't pi need to understand in order to use pi. And by that same token I could say that although you can use pi I think that you don't really understand it.

So where is the advantage in this all for mankind? The machines obviously use pi, and probably can calculate it filling a library full of digits. At the very least because we can....

I cannot write n equations for love, but if you had seen 'matrix reloaded' you would have known that the merovingian can
Besides, it is a fact that people in love have a hightend level of certain chemicals in their blood (I believe MDA is one of them) so that can be put into a function

And Pi doesn't explain anything... Can you explain, in your own words, anything that has happend in M1 or M2 without stepping into speculations? and you cannot use anything that did not come from M1, M2, AniM or EnterM.

I don't think you can...

Deep Cover->
please drop the matrix in matrix idea. I recall somebody posting that keanu reeves said that was not going to happen because that would be stupid


Umm, when the the big M write a program for love in M2?
Ok, what you are not grasping is the fact that if you only wrote a program base code to not understand that a car can only go forward, then that program will not understand when a car goes backwards. A program is a program, and it follows the rules on which it is based, and nothing else.
Now for AI, that maybe different. Since we as mankind haven't enveloped ourselves into AI yet, then we cannot answer what AI can really do.

So yes, the PI theory - using program logic is possible.

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sam.trip
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posted 06-27-2003 09:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sam.trip     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by enigma667:
So if Neo is the one and Trinity is the holy 3 then who is the 2 ?

Maybe revolutions will feature Bruce Boxlitner and Michelle Pfieffer reprising their roles from Tron


TO the question trinity is not representing all three, Neo is the one, the saviour of mankind, the messiah therefore Jesus and the son. The father is probably Morpheus, the zen like mentor, MOrpheus frees Neo, and guides him without leading him, he could alternatively be John the Baptist, leaving the Father to be controvertially the Architect, make up your own mind. THis leaves Trinity as the holy ghost? Neo can't live without trinity, they both brought each other back from the dead in truth the ghost is both Neo and Trinity or at least the love they share.

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Menace
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posted 06-27-2003 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Menace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anybody know what happened to the forum? Took awhile to reload

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RwD
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posted 06-29-2003 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RelajadoYa:
1) There was an article posted about a week ago called "The Red Pill". It talks about how human programmers made AI flawed by not allowing it to calculate pi, how Neo carries the reload code "101" etc. There are several "101" references in Reloaded- Merovingian's restaurant is on floor 101, the exit to the freeway is Exit 101. Maybe just a coincidence, I dont know.

I believe 101 is also on the fence and walls in the fight scene between Neo and Agents Smith (the fight just after the oracle leaves that scene)

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RwD
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posted 06-29-2003 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NeoMorph:
Umm, when the the big M write a program for love in M2?

The Merovingian is a program right? So how does he understand the chemical reactions for excitement? If he knows this, then love is a very very tiny step.

quote:
Originally posted by NeoMorph:
Ok, what you are not grasping is the fact that if you only wrote a program base code to not understand that a car can only go forward, then that program will not understand when a car goes backwards. A program is a program, and it follows the rules on which it is based, and nothing else.
euh, your contradicting yourself, but I think I know what you mean. In that case what you tried to say would be true.

quote:
Originally posted by NeoMorph:
Now for AI, that maybe different. Since we as mankind haven't enveloped ourselves into AI yet, then we cannot answer what AI can really do.

So yes, the PI theory - using program logic is possible.


My knowledge on AI is quite good, so I can answer that. As implied in the Matrix I will asume that the movie plays in our future. You have a lot of different types of AI's, right now the ones most people know are simple AI's like a bot in quake, or in the Netherlands the computer you can talk to asking for timetables of the trains.
But are those AI? hardly...
Most AI's that we call AI are 'one trick pony's' The AI's in the Matrix are not.

The one trick pony's have one big drawback: every action they do has been dictated in lines of programmed code. In fact the real intelligence lies in the programmer who generalizes situations and dictates the proper response...

That's why AI's in the Matrix either have an freakishly large number of programming lines or....

They are electronic brains that do not follow programming lines, but instead: They get an objective, then try to achieve that goal. This form of AI is being experimented with, and most universities have such a brain, that students try their 'programming' on. This type of brain is identical to human brains, so they would be able to learn new things.

I will however say that I can not predict new forms of AI, so (some/most of) the Matrix AI's could work differently...

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havenfx
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posted 06-29-2003 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for havenfx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RwD:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NeoMorph:
[b] Umm, when the the big M write a program for love in M2?


The Merovingian is a program right? So how does he understand the chemical reactions for excitement? If he knows this, then love is a very very tiny step.
[/B][/QUOTE]

god dammit why the fuck doint you understand. Merovigian wrote a program for an orgasm. An orgasm is not an emotion, it is a feeling, like or hot or cold, onyl it is pleasurable. An orgasm can be written becasue it is concrete..if you could touch it you could. He didn't write love. Love is an emotion just like happiness. Love is an effect achieved only by a cause. This refers to mero's cause and effect monologue. He caused the woman to have an orgasm so in effect he could love him..that was the purpose. You can't write an effect, only a cause..Mero can't write a program for everyone to be happy all the time but he can write a program that gives a reason for everyone to be happy all the time...Cause and Effect

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