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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
AndreasG2000
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posted 06-30-2003 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AndreasG2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
does any one know what the music is from the matrix revolution trailer?

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Adonis
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posted 07-02-2003 01:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Adonis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quoted:
Matrix Maya: Play it 'As If' it Were Real
Copyright: JUG SURAIYA & VIKAS SINGH


Is what we call reality really nothing but a digitally generated computer game devised by a master programmer to keep us in perpetual enslavement? This is the philo- sophically provocative premise of the Hollywood blockbuster Matrix, whose sequel — Matrix Reloaded — is currently storming box-offices the world over.

The story centres around a young computer hacker called Neo who stumbles upon the conspiracy and with the help of a band of awakened humans, seeks to destroy the power of the illusory world in which humankind is trapped.

Combining mind-bending metaphysics with balletic martial arts, the Matrix films could well be defined as 'Vedanta meets kung fu — and both win'. The protagonist, Neo, is portrayed as the ultimate soldier monk, an incomparable warrior whose invincible weapon is his mind, which has overcome the limitations that mind sets for itself.

The success of the Matrix is further proof that there is a growing audience for popular spirituality, particularly among the young. Indeed, Hollywood has been down this road before, most notably in the Star Wars series, which is a kind of intergalactic recounting of Kurukshetra.

Here again, Luke's unrea-lised powers are unleashed by the greatest of the Jedi knights, an ancient dwarf called Yoda. Luke, under Yoda's tutelage, lifts an entire spaceship up by force of medi-tation.

''I don't believe it,'' he says, allowing consciousness to break the cosmic connection in which he, the spaceship, and gravity, are not three different entities but part of a seamless whole. Sundered once again by the illusion of difference, the synergy is snapped; the spaceship collapses back into the swamp.

''That's the trouble — you don't believe,'' sighs Yoda, summing up in that sentence entire libraries of philosophical thought on the nature of an infinitely interconnected universe in which the seer and the seen are one.

The Matrix series pushes the envelope much further out. In Reloaded, Neo meets the supreme Architect, who wrote the game program, and who tells him that Neo and his Luciferian battle are nothing more than sub-plots in the digital scenario. Indeed, Neo is just one of many avatars who periodically will come up as programmed, and help to perpetuate the illusion they think they are battling to destroy.

This is the ultimate quandary of the philosopher who has looked into the very heart of being, without predicate or subject. In the all-embracing consciousness of pure being, all distinctions and contradictions are nullified. There is no more 'me' as opposed to 'thou'; no 'cause' which leads to 'effect', no 'after' which presupposes a 'before'.

Though such a state of consciousness can be achieved through a rigorous and progressive divestment of the blinkers of the conscious mind, it cannot be long sustained in the workaday world of what E M Foster called 'taxis and telegrams'.

The way of the world must be followed, be it as a student, a home-maker, a businessman, a politician, or indeed, a spiritual teacher who knows that his very teachings must necessarily limit the emancipation of his disciple. How is the subtle knot of this dilemma to be untied? How do we act, in full knowledge that our actions, and the world we act in, are nothing but constructs of our mind? Different people have suggested different remedies.

A Nobel laureate poet, when asked what he did for most of the day, replied that he filled his time painting his house. ''You can live with pure poetry only for very short spans of time, the rest of the while you spend attending to domestic chores and making them important.''

A young man about to get married put it somewhat differently. Seeing various priests and relatives making complicated arrangements for his nuptials, the groom-to-be said, ''To watch all of you buzzing around, it is as if you were really getting me married.''

The young man had gone straight to the heart of the matter. Practise all things — like marriage rituals, say — 'as if' they really mattered, but in the midst of their meticulous observance, recognise them for what they are: ceremonial rites of passage which have no meaning other than what we invest in them.

The ancient Greeks called it Mimesis — the enactment of life. All children do this spontaneously. ''Let's play 'cops and robbers', 'kings and queens', 'Sachin and Shoaib','' they say. And immediately transform themselves into their imagined avatars. The rules of the game are fiercely followed, precisely because they are known to be make-believe rules for a make-believe game.

Kid stuff? Perhaps. But it is from such child's play that devolve strategies for market and military wars, home-making and empire-building, and all the other endless charade of human endeavour. Krishna said it all to Arjuna.

Act against your adversaries 'as if' your actions had real significance, but know full well that your true adversary is only your sense of attachment.

Even when Krishna, in what seems to be an inexplicable deviation from the code of dharma, tells Arjuna that it is indeed permissible for him to break the rules of 'as if' when necessary, that is in itself a rule conditioned by the 'as if'. If all rules are indeed illusory, then so is the rule which says that rules are illusory.

The 'as if' principle operates even when it questions itself. This knowledge is the key to the chains of philosophic quietism, which we would otherwise forever be bound in. And that's how life — like the Matrix — goes on. 'As if' it were for real. And that's the only way to play it.


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dwarg
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posted 07-04-2003 07:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dwarg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I spent most of a day reading what has been written here previously, and have been very impressed. I wanted to share a theory on Agent Smith, and was hoping to bring some new info to the table, but sadly I finally stumbled across Niles post and he beat me to the punch--although I can further elaborate on it.

Niles wrote, "Oh, added to my post below, I also think that Agent Smith will ultimately join sides with Neo." (truncated)

I don't think anyone here has mentioned The Hero with a Thousand Faces (THWATF) yet. Its a book about comparative mythology/religion and narrative structure by Joseph Cambell. George Lucas credits it as a major influence on the original Star Wars trilogy (sadly, he seems to be bastardizing it horribly in his current trilogy). There is an excellent chart comparing common mythic/narrative themes with those found in Star Wars and the Matrix here:

http://www.jitterbug.com/origins/myth.html

Some of the parallels highlighted (especially for the matrix) are pretty half-baked, but that's largely because when it was written there was only one Matrix movie. One of the themes strangely lacking from this chart is redemption of an enemy. A common theme from THWATF, and represented in Star Wars by Vader turning on the emperor to save his son. As soon as I saw Agent Smith was back in M2 I thought I knew the where the bros. W were planning to take it. After seeing M2 I'm almost sure of it. Neo and Smith will fight each other to a stalemete and eventually Smith will side with Neo and turn against the Matrix.

This will achieve a few goals the movie has already set. It allows the machines an avatar through whom they can show repentance. Oracle, Seraph and other rogue programs do not because they were never established as enemies or threats to people. This will allow for coexistence and mutual evolution between people and machines. Morpheus' shocked statement, "He fights for us?" will have adequate weight. And it makes sense since Neo and Smith shared code at the end of M1 so essentially they are both partially "The One" Smith becomes an anomaly within the anomaly possibly making Neo, "Quicker than the others" as the Architect says or at least, statistically, the two of them are very difficult to plan for.

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dwarg
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posted 07-06-2003 01:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dwarg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Zion is a Matrix in a Matrix theory.

I also am a pretty big believer in this theory. I'll recap what I recall are the pros and cons to this theory that have already been discussed here.

Pros:


  1. Probable explanation for Neos ability to stop the sentinels in the "Real World" and prophesies

  2. Would be an added fail-safe to the Architects system, perhaps the "measure of control" he talks about

  3. Explains how agent smith could survive in an organic body (i.e. he's not)

  4. Explains Architects third-person images from the "Real World" on his monitors

  5. Explains Oracles knowledge of what Neo's dreams in the "Real World" to which she should have no connection

  6. Explains why there are so few physical barriers in place to stop people from being freed from the power plant

Cons:


  1. Zion doesn't have a green tint

  2. It would be lame

To be fair to those opposed to the MiM theory, none of the pros mean that Zion being another matrix is the only answer, but to me it seems to be the most probable. As for the cons the lack of green tint seems to be the most damning to the MiM theory--just because I think the Wachowskis would hate an inconsistency like that. As for it "being lame" I think that's most damning to those that can't think of a single way to resolve it that would satisfy them. Just because you can't doesn't mean the Wachowskis can't. I agree it would be lame if they did the, "and it was all a dream" scenario--in any fashion. But those who think in would be infinite Matrices within Matrices remind me of Nigel in Spinal Tap trying to make the sandwich with the small bread, "You keep foldin' it and foldin' it and you end up with this!" Who said to keep folding it? Yes that would be pretty lame too, but it isn't the only way to do a MiM story.

Here's one way to resolve the story off the top of my head:

Neo and Smith are both such violent anomalies in the system they have fallen between the cracks of the two Matrices (In the allegorical world of the matrix I would compare this to being in the machine level code or nearing the ROM), thus their comas. Trinity must fight her way through many heavily guarded programs to get Neo in that protected zone and lead him back. Neo and Smith are fighting but get attacked themselves by the architects fail-safe programs. Neo and Smith call a truce and agree to fight the Architect or the Source. At this point a benevolent program (either Oracle or a new higher powered one) should inform one of the characters (probably Trinity whom Seraph is guiding through "hell") that there is a shut down routine built into the program to free humanity once they have agreed to live together with machines. But the Architect didn't believe this would happen, nor did he want to give up power, so he escalated the conflict with those that reached the Zion Matrix, making the final step out much more difficult. So, much kung-fu, slow motion, and camera tricks later. Smith sacrifices himself to stop the Source. Neo, informed of the shut-down sequence by Trinity, executes that code. And the characters wake up in the real-real world which has been prepared for them by machines after the war, and they've been awaiting the waking of the humans that would live with them. The reasoning for the Matrix by the machines should involve Asimov's three rules of robotics. The robots built the matrix to protect humanity and machines from humanity. Neo will know it's the real-real world because he could sense the, "splinter in his mind" in the Matrix and then in Zion but he doesn't feel it here.

Now this is, of course, just my story line. I believe the Wachowski's will probably come up with something better than that. But I think it's a decent MiM story and I can think of several different ways it could have gone other than what I've written above. We'll have to wait and see. I just don't see any reason to rule out any theories yet (especially one I like, e.g. the MiM theory).

I didn't like the Pi theory very much, but it does have some merit in keeping with the Matrix's Neuromancer theme. In that story two programs/machines were not allowed to merge and join the matrix because they were not allowed to know a specific word or piece of knowledge. They had to get outside help to give them the word at the right time and place. So it could be the machines are waiting for something specific like that before they release the huamns.

Regardless, the Wachowskis have built up quite a mythology for this story so I'm sure the ending will be interesting.

Also, those that have mentioned the fallacy of getting energy from humans are correct, but it was accounted for in the first Matrix Morpheus says, "[humans provide] more bioelectricity than a 120-volt battery and over 25,000 BTUs of body heat; combined with a form of fusion, the machines had found all the energy they would ever need."

Energy is always lost in any transfer (plant to animal, animal to animal, animal back to plant), otherwise, would imply some sort of perpetual motion machine. Even the sun is burning itself out. With the fusion caveat, however, they can come up with any number of pseudo-scientific explanations to describe how it works. On the other hand they may not have to. With the MiM theory one could say that was all just an analogy the machines wrote into the Zion Matrix program to show human beings how they were using machines before the war. The council members discussion with Neo foreshadows acceptance of a symbiotic relationship between the two instead of dominance by either side. See how humans react when the shoe is on the other foot, so to speak. When they stop reacting violently, with a need to control, they are ready to wake-up.

Just a couple of possibilities.

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ntripy
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posted 07-08-2003 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ntripy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What about the Kid? It's all about the Kid and Agent Smith. Neo is a tool.

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buzz420
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posted 07-08-2003 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for buzz420     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK i have been doing a lot of reading and have spent most of the day watching M1 and Animatrix. thinking that i could gain some clarity.. but just started asking myself more Q?

1. When the Architec said "thier are levels of survival we are willing to except" Since neo did not return to the source what will that level be.

2. Why did they show us the kid in animatrix but only show him as a bit part for reloaded.

3.Who is the mother of the matrix.. the Arc. dismisses the oracal from being the mother. could it be trinity? not likely who else does that leave.

4. in animatix SR1 we learn that the construct holds vast archives of the human race and we learn in reloaded that the construct resides in zion. then why when the destroy zion each time they never wipe out the constuct. and why would the contruct not have archived this information????

As for the kid I think he is just a red hearing.
anythoughts..

[This message has been edited by buzz420 (edited 07-08-2003).]

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enigma667
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posted 07-09-2003 08:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for enigma667     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In Matrix2, Neo stepped out of his Zion apartment. Left at his doorstep were gifts? I am assunimg they arefrom admirers or worshippers. Now, I have only seen the M2 once; but if any of those gifts were food other than the synthetic amino slop, as featured in M1, doesn't this pose a curious problem as to Cypher's motivation to become a traitor?

I know that the amino slop is meant to be representative of the decayed human existencce that he seems to abhor; but there seemed to be a lot of focus on the food. He hated the slop; yet loved the roastbeef in his dinner with Smith.

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dwarg
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posted 07-09-2003 10:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dwarg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1. When the Architec said "thier are levels of survival we are willing to except" Since neo did not return to the source what will that level be.

I believe he was referring to after all of humanity was wiped out they would find a new power source, and until then be running on some kind of skeleton crew or shutting most of the machines down until a new power source is found or the sky clears. Regardless, it's just meant to show that they have calculated all the risks and have contingency plans for whatever gets thrown at them.

2. Why did they show us the kid in animatrix but only show him as a bit part for reloaded.
As for the kid I think he is just a red hearing. anythoughts..

I believe the point was just to show some continuity between the animatrix and the matrix. Just making a bigger more flushed out world. The method in which the kid just "wakes-up" could come up again--especially in a MiM scenario--but who knows.

3.Who is the mother of the matrix.. the Arc. dismisses the oracal from being the mother. could it be trinity? not likely who else does that leave.

Options are:


  1. Oracle, we're not sure if the Architect was ruling her out or just being obnoxious

  2. Trinity--as you say not likely

  3. Persephone, which would seem reasonable

  4. A new character, hidden or held prisoner somewhere like the keymaker

4. in animatix SR1 we learn that the construct holds vast archives of the human race and we learn in reloaded that the construct resides in zion. then why when the destroy zion each time they never wipe out the construct. and why would the contruct not have archived this information????

You lost me here. I think they leave it because Zion is a part of the Matrix, not necessarily a MiM, but the Architect does say it is necessary for (at least) identifying the 1 percent or .1 percent that won't except the matrix. There's no point in keeping it going if you make them completely helpless in Zion, they need to get the other undesirables out. But, archive it where? And if they did once they killed everyone in Zion who would know where or how to find it?

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dwarg
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posted 07-09-2003 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dwarg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now, I have only seen the M2 once; but if any of those gifts were food other than the synthetic amino slop, as featured in M1, doesn't this pose a curious problem as to Cypher's motivation to become a traitor?

It was almost all food other than the amino slop I believe. But if Neo represents a savior to these people, like Jesus Christ, then this food still represents a rather decayed human existence. Would you bring a god a plate of cookies and then ask him to protect your family? I think food other than the amino stuff does exist but it would be extremely rare, and therefore very valuable--the kind of stuff you'd offer to a god. The amino slop would probably be the staple of their diet, with organic foods for very special occasions. Also, on a military ship like the Nebuchadnezzar that slop might be all they could keep on board for the duration of their time away from Zion.

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explosive
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posted 07-14-2003 04:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for explosive     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This guy at work has this theory:

he thinks that Xion is actually 01.
the Machine city.
and in order to keep the machines dosile
they make them think that they are human
and neo is actually a robot
protecting 01 from human destruction

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explosive
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posted 07-14-2003 04:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for explosive     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
01 being the first and only machine City on earth. (seen in the Animatrix)

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RwD
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posted 07-18-2003 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by havenfx:
god dammit why the fuck doint you understand. Merovigian wrote a program for an orgasm. An orgasm is not an emotion, it is a feeling, like or hot or cold, onyl it is pleasurable. An orgasm can be written becasue it is concrete..if you could touch it you could. He didn't write love. Love is an emotion just like happiness. Love is an effect achieved only by a cause. This refers to mero's cause and effect monologue. He caused the woman to have an orgasm so in effect he could love him..that was the purpose. You can't write an effect, only a cause..Mero can't write a program for everyone to be happy all the time but he can write a program that gives a reason for everyone to be happy all the time...Cause and Effect


Yup, you go back to your 'cool corner' play with your computer. Go and look at those dirty pictures, playing with you no what. oops, orgasm? ow wait, what could have caused that? what can cause a cause?

Next time don't contradict yourself when you start yelling at other people.

An orgasm is an effect, yet you say you can't write an effect. You also said you can write an orgasm. Contradiction

Have you ever considered that you yourself consist out of a limited number of particles, and everything you do and feel comes from the interaction between those lmited number of particles???
As long as it is limited one can always describe it, or predict, or write formula's. Because it is concrete.
So the m. can write that program, whether it is a cause or an effect. So in fact either you talk shit or the movie does.


But besides all that, if your explanation is correct, then the dialog means nothing. Programs are build for a purpose, what you code in your program has a purpose. You don't put stuff in you don't need, and you do what you can to get what you want. So if you need love, would you say:
a) I can't write love, so I give up
b) I can't write love, but I know what to write to get love via that
c) I am an airplane
You should go for b. and by doing that you will write a program with the purpose of love. It is not what it does, but it does get you love.

So in effect you wrote a program for love.

Otherwise:
A television would only display images not tv-shows.
A supercomputer makes important calculations without storing them anywhere, so losing all results.
You only give your 'girlfriend' money, but don't get the montly sex.

You see?

I'l gladly see the reply from you to this.

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RwD
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posted 07-18-2003 09:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dwarg:

Zion is a Matrix in a Matrix theory.
  • Explains how agent smith could survive in an organic body (i.e. he's not)

  • A: does not... learning kung fu in 5 seconds explains it better

  • Explains Architects third-person images from the "Real World" on his monitors

  • A: Has anybody really really seen them, or just really unconsiously seen them

  • Explains Oracles knowledge of what Neo's dreams in the "Real World" to which she should have no connection

  • A: Neo has a big input output portal in his head. how do you know what she can read from connected brains

  • Explains why there are so few physical barriers in place to stop people from being freed from the power plant

  • A: Euhm, you missed out on the sentinel that 'freed' Neo. The nebbar. was hiding later on in M1 for just one sentinel. I think those are physical barier enough

    [This message has been edited by RwD (edited 07-20-2003).]

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    sagan
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    posted 07-19-2003 12:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sagan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    '...that there is no spoon'.
    Any theories on the two cuts in smith made on his hand in Zion?
    Interesting that the scene before the ending credits lay Neo and Smith tet a tet.

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    dwarg
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    posted 07-22-2003 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dwarg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Zion is a Matrix in a Matrix theory.

    Explains how agent smith could survive in an organic body (i.e. he's not)

    -- A: does not... learning kung fu in 5 seconds explains it better

    True, they are both plausible. With all the mental uploading and downloading it could easily be within the rules of the Matrix for Smith to live in a body. Something about a sentient program being uploaded to a human brain and fitting like a glove, however, just seems rather incongruous to me but that's just my personal opinion.

    Explains Architects third-person images from the "Real World" on his monitors

    -- A: Has anybody really really seen them, or just really unconsiously seen them

    I'd have to watch it again, but I'm pretty sure they were there. Someone earlier mentioned exactly which Zion sequences were shown.

    Explains Oracles knowledge of what Neo's dreams in the "Real World" to which she should have no connection

    -- A: Neo has a big input output portal in his head. how do you know what she can read from connected brains

    I don't know what she can and can't read from a connected brain, but free-will is going to have to be re-instated at some point here, and the Oracle knowing what's happening in and out of the Matrix isn't helping that.

    Explains why there are so few physical barriers in place to stop people from being freed from the power plant

    -- A: Euhm, you missed out on the sentinel that 'freed' Neo. The nebbar. was hiding later on in M1 for just one sentinel. I think those are physical barier enough

    Exectly. The robot that grabbed Neo by the neck could easily have crushed his spine right then and there. The water slide he was flushed down could have had some grinding devices to, "liquify the dead" as we were told. And there could be a sentinel posted by every sluice gate so that ships couldn't come pick up those being freed. Now the savage lack in security I just described could simply fall under the willing suspension of disbelief, but in the case of an MiM it's all easily explained as the machines are letting people get to Zion. Just putting up enough resistance to make the humans feel like they are accomplishing something when they are really not.

    Of course none of this even touches on what Neo did to the sentinels at the end of Reloaded. Everything above is only mentioned as supporting evidence of the MiM theory after that.

    Anyway, we could go back and forth point by point until they release the next movie, but I think it would be more productive to come up with more plausible alternatives. Don't like the Matrix in a Matrix theory... Great. What do you suggest?

    Neo has developed God like powers in the real world? He'll fly into the air and clear the scorched sky allowing machines to revert to solar power and free the humans (hmm...that's actually not as crazy as I meant it to sound)?

    Trinity fights her way through hell to save Neo, only to discover Toadstool who tells her the prince is in another castle?

    The obvious objectives of the next movie are:


    1. free the human race, or at least the main characters

    2. achieve equality between man and machine

    3. convert or eliminate agent Smith

    4. eliminate the architect and/or the source

    So what do we know that would accomplish these objectives?

    Anyone one have any other ideas?

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    NeoMorph
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    posted 07-24-2003 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    For every MiM HYPOTHESIS, not theory, put on here I can make a counter arguement to show that your statement is not solid.

    This movie, I believe will have a twisted ending, possbily many twisted endings/events in part 3. No one even knows what the "objectives" of the third movie are. Heck, everything shown in the trailer for M3 could just be Neo's visions and never really happen. We all know they make trailers NOT in sequence to the movie and place things side by side to intensify the trailer.

    K-

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    dwarg
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    posted 07-27-2003 03:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dwarg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    For every MiM HYPOTHESIS, not theory, put on here I can make a counter arguement to show that your statement is not solid.

    Hmm... Care to make one? Have any better hypotheses, theories, conjectures, or presupostions? I'd love to hear them. If not, why hang around this forum? Other than to start irrelevant semantic arguments of course.

    Actually, I'm sure I would find your explanation on why the term hypothesis is so much more well suited than theory to be quite entertaining as well.

    Regardless, it is possible you could make a counter-argument to anything I say that shows my statement is, "not solid," as you say. Possible, but highly unlikely since we have no means of testing any of our HYPOTHESES (oh, how I do hope I'm using that new big word correctly), until the next movie comes out.

    Until the final movie comes out the main purpose of this forum is rampant speculation (or if you like you can type speculation into thesaurus.com and choose another word more to your liking). If you disagree with my (what was that word again?.. oh yes) hypothesis (that was it) and were to do something crazy like offer up one of your own and contribute to the forum, even if it countered mine completely we have only offered up two possible explanations (insert witty derisive comment here). They can only counter each other based on what we know thus far, but cannot be disproved by what we don't yet know.

    Like the earlier idea (wow another one) someone had that the end of Matrix 1 happens after the third movie based on the dates given. I liked that idea a lot, but it was most likely disproved because that scene was on the architects monitor in Reloaded.

    So that ends todays lesson on grammar and the scientific method.

    To all other forum readers I apologize, but I hope it was at least slightly entertaining albeit long-winded once again.

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    NeoMorph
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    posted 07-28-2003 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

    "Hmm... Care to make one? Have any better hypotheses, theories, conjectures, or presupostions? I'd love to hear them. If not, why hang around this forum? Other than to start irrelevant semantic arguments of course"

    Answer: I have made some...read back a few pages. Not trying to start arguements here. It's just that people keep saying things out of context, like "theory" for example. Theories are based on evidence that does not change the outcome of a situation. I am not going to explain what the meaning of the word theory is in deep context...just that you have to go to hypothesis before you can reach theory.


    "Actually, I'm sure I would find your explanation on why the term hypothesis is so much more well suited than theory to be quite entertaining as well"

    Answer: See above post. You must first go through hypothesising before you can reach a theory. Example : "My theory is that the movie is a MiM". Okay, what hypothesis did you use to get to that theory.

    "Regardless, it is possible you could make a counter-argument to anything I say that shows my statement is, "not solid," as you say. Possible, but highly unlikely since we have no means of testing any of our HYPOTHESES (oh, how I do hope I'm using that new big word correctly), until the next movie comes out."

    Answer: Correct, you cannot test your hypothesis, hence you cannot have a theory...in the scientific world I mean. See a pattern developing?

    "Until the final movie comes out the main purpose of this forum is rampant speculation (or if you like you can type speculation into thesaurus.com and choose another word more to your liking). If you disagree with my (what was that word again?.. oh yes) hypothesis (that was it) and were to do something crazy like offer up one of your own and contribute to the forum, even if it countered mine completely we have only offered up two possible explanations (insert witty derisive comment here). They can only counter each other based on what we know thus far, but cannot be disproved by what we don't yet know."

    Answer: Exactly, which is what I have done on several occasions in my posts on this thread. Throwing up ideas here is what this forum is about. I was just trying to point out that these ideas cannot equal out to theories.

    "Like the earlier idea (wow another one) someone had that the end of Matrix 1 happens after the third movie based on the dates given. I liked that idea a lot, but it was most likely disproved because that scene was on the architects monitor in Reloaded.
    So that ends todays lesson on grammar and the scientific method."

    Answer: Good point, except you have to remember in the scientific methodology, hypothesis comes before theories.

    Thanks for helping me to prove my point. This is a good forum and I like the ideas posted here, but they are ideas...not theories. That's all.

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    DoogsDC
    Member
    posted 07-29-2003 12:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    This whole debate is rather funny. Everyone is debating the intricasies of the plot of Reloaded, trying to anticipate the sequel. The real question is how does this apply to my life?

    The answer?

    You are probably living in a simulation right now. You are not real; at least by any physical standards. You are just a computer program.

    Sounds off the wall? Well it's not.

    Think about the probability of several things.

    There is a high probability that at some point in the future, we will be able to create simulations of reality with simulated people.

    Whether their reason is for knowledge or recreation; I believe their is a high probability that intelligent beings with capable technology would WANT to create simulations.

    There is a high probability that intelligent life exists on other planets; that their civilizations advanced to simulation-technology far earlier than our existence, and that they might have created simulations with either A. lifeforms similar to them B. intelligent lifeforms completely different from them.

    It is possible that if the time in the simulations is fast-forwarded and sped up, none of us would ever know. Their time would be fast; ours would be slow.

    Hence, you live in a simulation.

    For links to this philosophy; read these:
    http://www.simulation-argument.com/
    http://www.simulation-argument.com/dainton.pdf
    http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
    http://www.simulation-argument.com/matrix.html

    Look for the keywords:
    Simulation Argument
    and
    Nick Bostrom

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    DoogsDC
    Member
    posted 07-29-2003 12:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    This whole debate is rather funny. Everyone is debating the intricasies of the plot of Reloaded, trying to anticipate the sequel. The real question is how does this apply to my life?

    The answer?

    You are probably living in a simulation right now. You are not real; at least by any physical standards. You are just a computer program.

    Sounds off the wall? Well it's not.

    Think about the probability of several things.

    There is a high probability that at some point in the future, we will be able to create simulations of reality with simulated people.

    Whether their reason is for knowledge or recreation; I believe their is a high probability that intelligent beings with capable technology would WANT to create simulations.

    There is a high probability that intelligent life exists on other planets; that their civilizations advanced to simulation-technology far earlier than our existence, and that they might have created simulations with either A. lifeforms similar to them B. intelligent lifeforms completely different from them.

    It is possible that if the time in the simulations is fast-forwarded and sped up, none of us would ever know. Their time would be fast; ours would be slow.

    Hence, you live in a simulation.

    For links to this philosophy; read these:
    http://www.simulation-argument.com/
    http://www.simulation-argument.com/dainton.pdf
    http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
    http://www.simulation-argument.com/matrix.html

    Look for the keywords:
    Simulation Argument
    and
    Nick Bostrom

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    indo
    Member
    posted 07-29-2003 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Yeah, the simulation philosphy may be true if you had no religious foundation. :P

    If you don't believe in a higher being, then you can take this computerised analogy literally and take any modernised philosophy as gospel. Most of the prominent philosiphers throughout time grounded their theories in religous scriptures or they had no validity.

    You make a good point of "how does this related to my life?". For every movie there are things to learn, and things to understand and in turn you can correlate soem concepts and relationships to your own life and your reality.

    But you still must realise at the end of the day that it is only a movie. It is an ideology of someone elses concepts and reality and to take it literally is to adopt their mentality which is rather concerning.

    There is no way i'd embrace these directors views as 'how the world functions'. They are make movies, they didn't make the world and your reality is distorted if you take the matrix triogy as anything more than an interested and well made 'movie'. :P

    This dicussion is quite interesting. It discusses peoples views and thoughts of the movie. I don't think many people in this era have the validity to discuss the complex nautre of life.


    [This message has been edited by indo (edited 07-29-2003).]

    [This message has been edited by indo (edited 07-29-2003).]

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    dwarg
    Member
    posted 08-08-2003 01:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dwarg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    First of all to NeoMorph:

    I must congratulate you on not taking the flame bait. I wasn't trying to start an argument but I was just making fun of you for differentiating between "theory" and "hypothesis" as terms in this context. Semantically you do have a fair amount of ground to stand on, but in terms of a bunch of dorks making up outcomes of a movie (as all of us here are) the word "theory" has enough meaning (specifically in the colloquial sense) that it makes little sense to argue its relevance over the word "hypothesis" on these grounds. Potato--poetaatoe. Lets call the whole thing off.

    Secondly to double post DoogsDC:

    Hence, you live in a simulation.

    Please... Far better men then those you have linked to have attempted to tackle this and the only response that need be made is--"Ockham's razor".

    I'm a big fan of Plato's "The Cave" but trying to turn that into a theological way of life is as stupid as it is irrelevant.

    You can apply some things to your life from movies, but try saying that after watching "Biodome", "Blues Brothers 2000" or (my personal favorite) "Attack of the Eye Creatures".

    As for applying this to religion:

    Religion is no longer the opium of the masses--television is.

    Religion has relegated itself to a more rabid minority (The Christian Coalition et. al) making it more comparable to crank as far as I'm concerned.

    If you want my personal view of religion, and I'm sure you don't... The broader ideas of the major religions are valid, I think, but over the years the minutia of all of them have been so perverted by those in power to fit their own agendas it can only be considered naive to trust them. See the council of Ephesus cross-referenced with the goddess Sophia vs. the Virgin Mary for a Christian example.

    That should be more than enough flame bait for now.

    Weren't we talking about the Matrix a second ago?

    Sorry about that.

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    butterballx
    Member
    posted 08-11-2003 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for butterballx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    I just want to say that matrix 3 will be the sweetest thing in the world especially the part where neo fights the original mr.smith in the ring of clones!!!!

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    RwD
    Member
    posted 08-17-2003 05:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RwD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by dwarg:
    ...
    Explains why there are so few physical barriers in place to stop people from being freed from the power plant

    -- A: Euhm, you missed out on the sentinel that 'freed' Neo. The nebbar. was hiding later on in M1 for just one sentinel. I think those are physical barier enough

    Exectly. The robot that grabbed Neo by the neck could easily have crushed his spine right then and there. The water slide he was flushed down could have had some grinding devices to, "liquify the dead" as we were told. And there could be a sentinel posted by every sluice gate so that ships couldn't come pick up those being freed. Now the savage lack in security I just described could simply fall under the willing suspension of disbelief, but in the case of an MiM it's all easily explained as the machines are letting people get to Zion. Just putting up enough resistance to make the humans feel like they are accomplishing something when they are really not.
    ...


    It bugged me in the first matrix that they have agents to fight people from zion, but they do let people go living...

    Then on the other hand, I thought of this: WE HUNT
    So for all we know the agents are hunters, intuitive programs that wish to hunt.... No matter what they say in the movie this could be so, it could be their role.

    then this hypothesis could also explain why people are released without much real effort, without having to think towards the MiM.

    And like said before and before, why would they make a very obvious ending to the movie AND show you this before the last chapter is in theaters???

    ----------------------------------

    Euh, does it actually matter if I'm a simulation or real? Cogito ergo sum (I think therefore I am, Rene Descartes).

    Regardless if I will ever find out if I'm real or not I do live my live between others like me. I can see, feel, love and so on. So why would anybody want to investigate that hypothesis (no prove for it whatsoever right)? I have to live in whatever world I live in now, and won't be any better or worse if I know what I am...

    Well, I just thought it doesn't make sense to suggest something like this since you can't get any conclusive evidence ever, not even a little bit. the entire hypothesis is based on guessing, then applying some 'we don't know'....... ...but if that is what you believe, go ahead, I'll go visit my girlfriend :P

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    robert
    Member
    posted 09-27-2003 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for robert     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    lightning is hotter than the sun. if the machines need power, why couldn't they just get it from all the lightning strikes. the sky is full of them after the humans scorched the sky. the sky is always shown with dark clouds, high wind and plenty of lightning.

    except, of course, at the end of the latest trailer for revolutions. hmmm.

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    soh80
    Member
    posted 10-03-2003 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for soh80     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Just another suggestion..
    The architect told us about a cataclysmic system crash that will occur when Neo goes back to save Trinity. I actually think this crash already started in the beginning of Reloaded.

    Smith has some essentials a computer virus also has, another system of control started at the end of M1. When Neo destroyed him he got unplugged and was able to copy himself. Consider him copying himself exponentially into every human plugged into the matrix. This seems like a virus crashing and overloading the system. The revolutions trailer at the end of reloaded also shows us the matrix breaking down (lights turning off, the green screen in the Neb crashing). It also shows Neo in a final showdown with Smith...

    Just some theory...

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    Mikekan13
    Member
    posted 10-15-2003 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikekan13     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    The reason Neo can stop the sentinels outside the matrix is because he indeed is the one. and since he is the one.Not only the one the architect cant unformulate out of the equation in the matrix but also the one of the human people. it does not matter if he is in the matrix or not. He is like Super Jesus.

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    Gabychu
    Member
    posted 10-17-2003 06:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gabychu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    I'm not sure about this, but I don't know if you have noticed. Morpheus says they have been fighting for 100 years. But in M1 Smith says that the matrix is a representation of just the last couple of years in the "peak" of civilization. Doesnt this gives way to say that the "real" world is just anothe matrix, made to controll all of the anomalies.() In this las point the arquitect says that there is a 99% satisfactiion on the humans and a 1% anomaly (all of Zion's inhabitants) and Neo the result of this anomaly.

    Just a curiosity.

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    Taslan
    Member
    posted 10-19-2003 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Taslan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    The reason why Neo could stop the setienals is very easy to understand.

    He has the "Power" to twist the Matrix, such as when trinity almost died, he reached into her and pulled out the bullet, and restarted her heart. Basicly, he took off the pressure that the programing put on her mind, and gave her mind a "shock" to restart it.

    Agent Smith can live in the body, simply because its like a computer. Its controled by chemicals and little electric jolts. Its very possible with his new viral like abbilties he can adapt himself to go into a physical body.

    Now back to the part I was talking to.

    The sentianals brain is like "The Matrix" and thusly, all that Neo did was reached out, and used his power to go into the matrix that existed in there mind, and jolted it the fuck out. Basicly a human EMP pulse lol..

    The explains why he fainted. He reached the machines with his mind, with his POWER OF MIND. He actualy went into the world in which they have there own matrix, and shut it down, thusly stopping them. That must of put such a stress on the mind, that it made him faint for a time being.

    And by the way. The Kid is the One, and he saves the world by twisting the Matrix to a point were its in Power safe mode. Muaaha

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    tc79
    Member
    posted 10-23-2003 08:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tc79     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    okay i may be really way totally off here but is there any possibility that the machines are trying to combine themselves with humans. Instead of fighting a war, why not just eliminate an advesary by enveloping them. Maybe neo is the only "one" to combine correctly accomplishing their ultimate goal. The agent smith factor may just be a wild card they didn't account for which might explain why in the preview for the 3rd movie they need Neo's help in stopping him. like i said could be way off i know nothing about computer programs or software but i thought i'd throw it out there feel free to tear it apart.

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    Bluedevil
    Member
    posted 10-28-2003 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluedevil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Spoiler...I don't know if this is legit but here goes...someone sent this to me

    Revolutions plot:

    The movie starts in the real world above zion. The destruction of human cities is tremendous. Out of this rubble appears a black line. The black line grows closer and is joined by another line and then another. These three lines pass sentinels, pass the fields where humans are being grown, pass large digging machines doing there thing and finally to a large alien looking city.

    But it was all a dream, Neo wakes up in the matrix on a bench in a subway station. The rumbling from a train has awaken him. He watches the train pull in and a dirty looking bum gets off the train with wild hair and wild eyes. He coaxes Neo aboard the train, and the train leaves the station. The bum explains to Neo that he is safe here from the french guy.

    The frenchguy, he explains, is an ancient program created to learn about the ideas of sin and guilt which were the presumed cause of the losses of large crops of humans. The architect had given humans a perfect world but within this world humans using their innate freewill were rejecting and destroying this perfect world. The frenchman wanted to eliminate freedom of action as a solution to the incompatability between perfection and freewill. The Architect then created a program to find the solution to this dilemna without removing freewill. This program (the Oracle) determined, after studying human history, that freewill has always been an illusion and that humans have never been truly free. Freewill can be circumscribed into ever smaller circles of control using the ideas of Hope, Faith, Guilt and Sin. She determined that social structures like government, church, corporations and family can control freewill without removing the concept itself. Based on this information and a search of human history they decided to use the pinacle of civilization as the means of control. Civilization is based on control and after all it is the opposite of individual liberty and freewill, it allows for the perception of individual freedom while preserving the neccessary means of control to suppress sin and guit. In that sense the frenchman was like the serpent in the garden of eden introducing knowledge and destroying the world God(the architect) had created. This perception of freewill would eventually bring about the destruction of the matrix and so faith must save it. The frenchman then refused to return to the source, claiming the argument wasn’t over and he would be proved correct, so he was exiled into the Matrix. The Oracle had to continue working within the system to preserve faith and create the idea of the One. At this point a young female enters the traincar.

    While all this is happening to Neo the people of Zion are regrouping after their disastrous attempt to preempt the machines attack. They are trying to piece together who survived and gather their weapons to prepare for the final attack. Morpheus and Trinity board a hovercraft in an effort to find the Logos which wasn’t involved in the attack but hasn’t been heard from. When they find the Logos and her crew it is disabled, the crew of the other ship helps get the Logos restarted while Niobe explains to Morpheus and Trinity that she had been to see the Oracle. She says the Oracle explained that Neo’s body is seperated from his mind and he is trapped within the matrix. They return to Zion to explain what has happened and to retrieve Neo’s body. While they are explaining their strategy to the Zion Council Bane wakes up and kills the doctor tending to him. Bane follows Neo’s body as it is being transfered to the Logos. After the council meeting both the ships head to broadcast depth so that Morpheus and company can see the Oracle.

    Morpheus meets Seraph who bows and takes Ghost, Niobe, Morpheus, and Trinity to the see the Oracle. She awaits them in her kitchen and explains that Neo is trapped like a rogue program in the Matrix. She tells Trinity she must free him from the french guy by going through hell herself. They can find him at the Hell club. Seraph and the Oracle exchange a look and then Seraph states that he will show them. After thinking about it the Oracles speech to Trinity makes perfect sense since the Oracle knows the frenchman’s wife will be there.

    Neo is still on the train. He learns that the frenchman’s wife is actually the product of the Oracle and the frenchman. She was created using some of his code without his permission or knowledge by the Oracle to advance her Ideas on human nature. She had persisted in the idea that humans had a special ability to jump beyond their programming through faith and emotion that the machines lacked. Coupling this with the dependency that the machines have on humans for their survival she has determined that they must live together in peace. The wife had helped to trap Neo for the frenchman who hopes to tempt him with sin to succumb to his human “programming”. His wife though has not taken sides like most other programs and though she has submitted to the frenchman, she has come to realize she has sacrificed passion for her pleasure. The little girl explains to Neo that she is the product of a dissillusioned frenchman’s wife and a rogue program who was in charge of human procreation. Her parents had hid her in the mind a human child who was wired into the matrix at the time. But Neo had helped to free this child trapping the prodigy without protection in the matrix. She was now being pursued by both agents and the frenchman. The father of the prodigy betrayed the Oracle to save the life of his now unprotected daughter.

    Morpheus and Trinity and Seraph make it to the Hell Club. They fight their way into the hell club fairly easily but then the twins attack. Seraph holds the fort against the twins while Morpheus and Trinity keep fighting to get the frenchman. Ghost and Niobe are running from agents trying to beat the train to its next station to get to Neo. Morpheus and TRinity are now facing down the frenchman. His henchmen are holding their fire since trinity is pointing a gun at his head. Seraph is having an unbelievable battle with the twins but falls to a sword. The twins enter the room through a wall as the frenchman explains that the building is wired and if he dies they all die. He says bring Neo to me and the twins take off after him. The frenchman’s wife learning from trinity about sacrifices made for love walks up behind the french guy and holds a gun to his head, she explains to Trinity “he is not so interested in the end as am I, your lover is with my child go to him”. Trinity and Morpheus leave and the building is destroyed behind them.

    The commander and the councilor discuss the possible plans for preserving the final defenses of Zion. Sentinel scouts have been attacking the gates and are being fought off with the manned robots. No ships remain to help in the defense. the commander is in a d**n near panic as he is calling now on all people of zion to defend the gates and issuing personal weapons to untrained humans. The kid takes over a robot from a fallen comrade and begins to hold the gate. Other humans are using hand held weapons to fight the sentinels who are penetrating the defenses. There are only two hours till the main body of the machine army hit the gates en masse.

    Neo fights and destroys the twins in a great battle protecting the prodigy, then when the train pulls into the next station he exits and the train departs to save Ghost and Niobe from two agents. Niobe calls for a hard line and Neo’s body is hooked up to the matrix in one of the chairs. the operator explains that he has been recieving emergency calls from Zion for a general return to fight the sentinels. Ghost and Niobe head for the exit as Morpheus and Trinity get to the station. Neo explains to Morpheus the current situation and he and Trinity share a kiss beore he explains that he must discuss something with the Oracle. Neo takes off while Morpheus and Trinity head to the exit.

    Neo Arrives at the Oracles apartment and enters. she is alone. He recognizes her code. She smiles. Smith arrives at the train station and takes over the bum and the little girl. The girl tries to run and smith says “don’t be shy, join us” and jams his hand into her chest with a snarl. “ah yes welcome to the party” he says. The Oracle explains to Neo that the time is now. She can no longer see the future, she explains that one side cannot win. She only prophesied an end to the war not victory. The anomoly of the One was more profound than the architect had predicted. Through exposure to humans and the desire to understand them and the constant pressure to keep them in line with newer and better programming had led to what she had finally forseen. Smith had become so like humans that he was now a threat to the system itself. This limited machine freewill was now uncontrollable except by the One. The entire sytem would fail without human intervention and all people and machines would be destroyed.

    Morpheus Jacks out and as Trinity is waiting Bane attacks. The rest of the crew had been fighting him to keep him away from the chairs. Trinity knocks the laser gun out of his hand as he shoots at Neo who is still in the chair. Morpheus jumps bane and they strangle each other. Bane says “morpheus”, Morpheus says “Smith” They struggle a little more. Morpheus grabs the knife and says “welcome to the real world” and stabs bane in the chest. It’s pretty cool here cause bane looks more shocked then hurt before he dies. Niobe calls Morpheus and explains about the situation in zion as Neo jacks out. He is blinded from the laser attack from bane.

    Neo explains to Morpheus that he now knows what he must do. Everyone but Neo and Trinity board the other ship, while they prepare themselves on the Logos. Morpheus tries to talk Neo into letting him go with them. Neo declines and explains that the prophecy can only be carried out through hope. He explains about the previous ones and that they lacked hope and instead substituted faith in the future. Faith requires no action, hope without action deteriorates into faith. Faith is the system of control the machines had counted upon. Neo explains that the time is now or never and he has chosen to make the prophecy come true. He and Trinity take off in the logos while the others race back to zion on the other ship.

    Smith arrives in the Oracles apartment and after a short debate smith takes over the Oracle and laughs knowingly. Neo and Trinity are flying the logos through the wreckage of the real world. Neo explains his dreams and what they mean to Trinity while she is flying the ship. They begin to see more and more sentinels as Neo explains his connection to smith. Their destinies are tied together. Neo can sense the machines because of Smith, and Smith can sense anything Neo has come into contact with. Through smith he has sensed what could be described as fear in the programs, as smith grows stronger the other programs grow weaker and the matrix will continue to deteriorate until it is reloaded. Killing all humans and machines. The problem is that only smith can reload the matrix now.

    The other ship fights through waves of sentinels to reach zion. As they reach the gate, the annoyong kid is holding the gate and fighting furiously with the sentinels. Morpheus blast away at the sentinels helping the humans on the ground. Finally another ship radios morpheus explaining that they are on their way. Niobe fires the emp and this wave of sentinels is destroyed. The robot thing collapses and morpheus new ship is now useless. The council meets while the survivors of zion rebuild. The main body of attacking sentinels is only minutes away. Morpheus explains that Neo is headed to the machine city to fullfill the prophecy. Even the commander agrees at this point that that is all they can hope for. They form a plan to head out and meet the sentinels to try to buy time for neo to defeat the machines on the last hovercraft.

    Neo is fighting off the sentinels using his connection to smith’s mind. While trinity flies the ship. she sees the black lines Neo was talking about in his dream and follows them. As they do the sentinels multiply in number. Out of a cloud of squiddies a pair of huge machines appear. Trinity tries to fly between them but the ship is hit by a laser and the controls become useless. The logos crashes hard as a swarm of squids chase it. The minute the ship stops tumbling the sentinels are on it cutting it to pieces. In the wreckage they find Neo and Trinity lying there holding hands. One of the squids pull Neo away from Trinity who is obviously dead. His body is lifted up and flown slowly towards the heart of the machine city. In front of a large black building with flickering lights neo is dropped into the hands of ugly brown human sized mahines that look like ants. They bring him inside a empty chamber lock him on a table and a probe is jammed into his neck hole. He wakes up in a construct all white with no distinguishing features.

    The commander and the councilor join Morpheus and the rest of the crew board the last ship. They leave zion and head towards broadcast depth. They see giant machines which are like mobile squiddie manufacturing plants. Sentinels attack immediately, quickly they are all over the ship and are cutting through the hull. The councillor is pulled out of the ship trying to push the kid out of the way. The commander holds off the squiddies on the ship with a laser but too many are getting in and he gets ripped to pieces by one from behind him. They are crawling along the inside of the ship chasing the kid.

    The Oracle appears in the contruct and begins talking with Neo. The Oracle explains the machines position to Neo. The matrix must be reloaded and Smith must be destroyed. Neo knows this isn’t the oracle so the machine takes the form of the architect. The architect then explains that maybe we should have been more carefull to understand the basic functioning of the matrix. Then the frenchguys wife appears and argues that the system must be stabilized regardless of the outcome. The french guy then appears and says that they can not be set free. this goes on with different characters apearing, it is like a machine council meeting. Finally neo stops the debate with the idea that only he has the choice. the machines agree and negotiate with neo. Neo begins to explain the sacrifice he has made and what he wants in return.

    Niobe and Morpheus are kissing while the squiddies continue to tear their ship apart. Suddenly the sentinels stop the giant factories cease pumping out sentinels. Niobe runs to the screens and sees Neo in the matrix. Morpheus looks at the code and his shoulders drop, he realizes trinity is dead. Neo faces off with smith in the rain. They attack each other after a few taunts They fight on the ground and in the air destroying the buildings around them. Everytime Smith gets in a good shot his doubles all grin from every window and door in the matrix. Neo is kicking Smiths ass most of the time but finally Smith jams his hand into Neo’s chest, but Neo concentrates and smith starts to become Neo then suddenly Neo becomes Smith. Back in the machine city the ant machines unplug Neo. Smith says “no” then drops on the ground, the rains stop and all the smith clones begin to turn back into the people he had taken over.

    On the ship the sentinels back off but the kid collapses. Niobe notices that the code has changed. Morpheus says the kid is dead. Inside the architects room the architect is being taken over, he fights but the kid appears there. Neo enters the room. He explains that the threat is gone he has smiths code. Neo tells him that the balance must be maintained at all costs. The kid nods, you must reload. I know what to do. Neo enters the door.

    Morpheus and Niobe are walking through the matrix. Morpheus is explaining that all these people must be freed. Niobe says that he knows what that would mean. He talks about what he had hoped would happen and that Neo said the prophecy must be forced to become real. behind them an agent walks holding his earpeice and glaring at them.

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    B-RAD
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    posted 11-05-2003 04:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for B-RAD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Has it ccured to any one that mabe everyone has there own Matrixs. Neo is just one of the millions of people that in there own little Matrix. Neo dreamed he woke up from the "Matrixs" but he didn't kinda like a Matrix Within a Matrixs. Onley "Bob" also in his own Matrixs thougt he was was the "One" and so did Joe.

    ------------------
    B-RAD

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    B-RAD
    Member
    posted 11-05-2003 04:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for B-RAD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Here is another Matrixs in the Matrixs thought both the machines and humans are in the matrixs. There is one person who created the Matrixs and right now he can controll almost anything. So there were two Architects one the the architect in "The Real World" and one we did not meet yet.
    The Architect we have not heard yet is the one who copied Neo onto Smith and Smith onto Neo which is how the EMP got triggred on the ship wich smith/bane was on and how Neo stoped the sentinals. Neo said right before he stopped the setinals "Somthing is diferent I can feel them". What i think it means is when smith got into the "real world"
    an equation that was balanced became unbalanced when Neo killed Smith. So when Smith came into the "Real World" an equation was now balanced but not like before bcause Neo and Smith/Bane are together so the balance in the equation is not the same balance as before it is now a differant balance wich means both Smith and Neo will have more abilities than before.

    ------------------
    B-RAD

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    ItEndsTonight
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    posted 11-05-2003 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ItEndsTonight     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    The ending of revolutions has me confused, overwhelmed with anger at the Wachowski Brothers and even sad. I thouhgt that perhaps the ending would have a little more validity to it. All the questions were not answered and even more arise. Who is the mother of the matrix!?!?! Why did Smith call the Oracle mom!?!? Who destroyed Smith?!? Was it Neo, was it the machines...Why did he say "Everything that has a beggining has an end" before he killed Neo??? Was it because the oracle was too powerful for him?? If thats so then the oracle could have killed Smith. There are so many possibilites!!! And just out of curiosity...WHAT IS THAT SHIT IN THE ATMOSPHERE!!!!! I know the humans did it to keep the sun from giving the machines power, but wouldn't you think that with all the knowledge the machines have they could get rid of it??? I saw the trailers and saw the sky and thought that perhaps there was hope, that with all that stuff gone the machines wouldn't need humans and the humans could live in peace with them... but all we know now is that the Oracle thinkd that in the future they will see Neo again, which is impossible except if the anomally is created again which would only happen if peace didn't work out and the human race was enslaved in the Matrix again, or as the architect thought that peace would not work so in other words...ITS ALL GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN!!!! DAMN THE MAN THAT MADE MACHINES!!!!

    [This message has been edited by ItEndsTonight (edited 11-05-2003).]

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    ItEndsTonight
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    posted 11-05-2003 06:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ItEndsTonight     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Bluedevil:
    Spoiler...I don't know if this is legit but here goes...someone sent this to me

    Revolutions plot:

    The movie starts in the real world above zion. The destruction of human cities is tremendous. Out of this rubble appears a black line. The black line grows closer and is joined by another line and then another. These three lines pass sentinels, pass the fields where humans are being grown, pass large digging machines doing there thing and finally to a large alien looking city.

    But it was all a dream, Neo wakes up in the matrix on a bench in a subway station. The rumbling from a train has awaken him. He watches the train pull in and a dirty looking bum gets off the train with wild hair and wild eyes. He coaxes Neo aboard the train, and the train leaves the station. The bum explains to Neo that he is safe here from the french guy.

    The frenchguy, he explains, is an ancient program created to learn about the ideas of sin and guilt which were the presumed cause of the losses of large crops of humans. The architect had given humans a perfect world but within this world humans using their innate freewill were rejecting and destroying this perfect world. The frenchman wanted to eliminate freedom of action as a solution to the incompatability between perfection and freewill. The Architect then created a program to find the solution to this dilemna without removing freewill. This program (the Oracle) determined, after studying human history, that freewill has always been an illusion and that humans have never been truly free. Freewill can be circumscribed into ever smaller circles of control using the ideas of Hope, Faith, Guilt and Sin. She determined that social structures like government, church, corporations and family can control freewill without removing the concept itself. Based on this information and a search of human history they decided to use the pinacle of civilization as the means of control. Civilization is based on control and after all it is the opposite of individual liberty and freewill, it allows for the perception of individual freedom while preserving the neccessary means of control to suppress sin and guit. In that sense the frenchman was like the serpent in the garden of eden introducing knowledge and destroying the world God(the architect) had created. This perception of freewill would eventually bring about the destruction of the matrix and so faith must save it. The frenchman then refused to return to the source, claiming the argument wasn’t over and he would be proved correct, so he was exiled into the Matrix. The Oracle had to continue working within the system to preserve faith and create the idea of the One. At this point a young female enters the traincar.

    While all this is happening to Neo the people of Zion are regrouping after their disastrous attempt to preempt the machines attack. They are trying to piece together who survived and gather their weapons to prepare for the final attack. Morpheus and Trinity board a hovercraft in an effort to find the Logos which wasn’t involved in the attack but hasn’t been heard from. When they find the Logos and her crew it is disabled, the crew of the other ship helps get the Logos restarted while Niobe explains to Morpheus and Trinity that she had been to see the Oracle. She says the Oracle explained that Neo’s body is seperated from his mind and he is trapped within the matrix. They return to Zion to explain what has happened and to retrieve Neo’s body. While they are explaining their strategy to the Zion Council Bane wakes up and kills the doctor tending to him. Bane follows Neo’s body as it is being transfered to the Logos. After the council meeting both the ships head to broadcast depth so that Morpheus and company can see the Oracle.

    Morpheus meets Seraph who bows and takes Ghost, Niobe, Morpheus, and Trinity to the see the Oracle. She awaits them in her kitchen and explains that Neo is trapped like a rogue program in the Matrix. She tells Trinity she must free him from the french guy by going through hell herself. They can find him at the Hell club. Seraph and the Oracle exchange a look and then Seraph states that he will show them. After thinking about it the Oracles speech to Trinity makes perfect sense since the Oracle knows the frenchman’s wife will be there.

    Neo is still on the train. He learns that the frenchman’s wife is actually the product of the Oracle and the frenchman. She was created using some of his code without his permission or knowledge by the Oracle to advance her Ideas on human nature. She had persisted in the idea that humans had a special ability to jump beyond their programming through faith and emotion that the machines lacked. Coupling this with the dependency that the machines have on humans for their survival she has determined that they must live together in peace. The wife had helped to trap Neo for the frenchman who hopes to tempt him with sin to succumb to his human “programming”. His wife though has not taken sides like most other programs and though she has submitted to the frenchman, she has come to realize she has sacrificed passion for her pleasure. The little girl explains to Neo that she is the product of a dissillusioned frenchman’s wife and a rogue program who was in charge of human procreation. Her parents had hid her in the mind a human child who was wired into the matrix at the time. But Neo had helped to free this child trapping the prodigy without protection in the matrix. She was now being pursued by both agents and the frenchman. The father of the prodigy betrayed the Oracle to save the life of his now unprotected daughter.

    Morpheus and Trinity and Seraph make it to the Hell Club. They fight their way into the hell club fairly easily but then the twins attack. Seraph holds the fort against the twins while Morpheus and Trinity keep fighting to get the frenchman. Ghost and Niobe are running from agents trying to beat the train to its next station to get to Neo. Morpheus and TRinity are now facing down the frenchman. His henchmen are holding their fire since trinity is pointing a gun at his head. Seraph is having an unbelievable battle with the twins but falls to a sword. The twins enter the room through a wall as the frenchman explains that the building is wired and if he dies they all die. He says bring Neo to me and the twins take off after him. The frenchman’s wife learning from trinity about sacrifices made for love walks up behind the french guy and holds a gun to his head, she explains to Trinity “he is not so interested in the end as am I, your lover is with my child go to him”. Trinity and Morpheus leave and the building is destroyed behind them.

    The commander and the councilor discuss the possible plans for preserving the final defenses of Zion. Sentinel scouts have been attacking the gates and are being fought off with the manned robots. No ships remain to help in the defense. the commander is in a d**n near panic as he is calling now on all people of zion to defend the gates and issuing personal weapons to untrained humans. The kid takes over a robot from a fallen comrade and begins to hold the gate. Other humans are using hand held weapons to fight the sentinels who are penetrating the defenses. There are only two hours till the main body of the machine army hit the gates en masse.

    Neo fights and destroys the twins in a great battle protecting the prodigy, then when the train pulls into the next station he exits and the train departs to save Ghost and Niobe from two agents. Niobe calls for a hard line and Neo’s body is hooked up to the matrix in one of the chairs. the operator explains that he has been recieving emergency calls from Zion for a general return to fight the sentinels. Ghost and Niobe head for the exit as Morpheus and Trinity get to the station. Neo explains to Morpheus the current situation and he and Trinity share a kiss beore he explains that he must discuss something with the Oracle. Neo takes off while Morpheus and Trinity head to the exit.

    Neo Arrives at the Oracles apartment and enters. she is alone. He recognizes her code. She smiles. Smith arrives at the train station and takes over the bum and the little girl. The girl tries to run and smith says “don’t be shy, join us” and jams his hand into her chest with a snarl. “ah yes welcome to the party” he says. The Oracle explains to Neo that the time is now. She can no longer see the future, she explains that one side cannot win. She only prophesied an end to the war not victory. The anomoly of the One was more profound than the architect had predicted. Through exposure to humans and the desire to understand them and the constant pressure to keep them in line with newer and better programming had led to what she had finally forseen. Smith had become so like humans that he was now a threat to the system itself. This limited machine freewill was now uncontrollable except by the One. The entire sytem would fail without human intervention and all people and machines would be destroyed.

    Morpheus Jacks out and as Trinity is waiting Bane attacks. The rest of the crew had been fighting him to keep him away from the chairs. Trinity knocks the laser gun out of his hand as he shoots at Neo who is still in the chair. Morpheus jumps bane and they strangle each other. Bane says “morpheus”, Morpheus says “Smith” They struggle a little more. Morpheus grabs the knife and says “welcome to the real world” and stabs bane in the chest. It’s pretty cool here cause bane looks more shocked then hurt before he dies. Niobe calls Morpheus and explains about the situation in zion as Neo jacks out. He is blinded from the laser attack from bane.

    Neo explains to Morpheus that he now knows what he must do. Everyone but Neo and Trinity board the other ship, while they prepare themselves on the Logos. Morpheus tries to talk Neo into letting him go with them. Neo declines and explains that the prophecy can only be carried out through hope. He explains about the previous ones and that they lacked hope and instead substituted faith in the future. Faith requires no action, hope without action deteriorates into faith. Faith is the system of control the machines had counted upon. Neo explains that the time is now or never and he has chosen to make the prophecy come true. He and Trinity take off in the logos while the others race back to zion on the other ship.

    Smith arrives in the Oracles apartment and after a short debate smith takes over the Oracle and laughs knowingly. Neo and Trinity are flying the logos through the wreckage of the real world. Neo explains his dreams and what they mean to Trinity while she is flying the ship. They begin to see more and more sentinels as Neo explains his connection to smith. Their destinies are tied together. Neo can sense the machines because of Smith, and Smith can sense anything Neo has come into contact with. Through smith he has sensed what could be described as fear in the programs, as smith grows stronger the other programs grow weaker and the matrix will continue to deteriorate until it is reloaded. Killing all humans and machines. The problem is that only smith can reload the matrix now.

    The other ship fights through waves of sentinels to reach zion. As they reach the gate, the annoyong kid is holding the gate and fighting furiously with the sentinels. Morpheus blast away at the sentinels helping the humans on the ground. Finally another ship radios morpheus explaining that they are on their way. Niobe fires the emp and this wave of sentinels is destroyed. The robot thing collapses and morpheus new ship is now useless. The council meets while the survivors of zion rebuild. The main body of attacking sentinels is only minutes away. Morpheus explains that Neo is headed to the machine city to fullfill the prophecy. Even the commander agrees at this point that that is all they can hope for. They form a plan to head out and meet the sentinels to try to buy time for neo to defeat the machines on the last hovercraft.

    Neo is fighting off the sentinels using his connection to smith’s mind. While trinity flies the ship. she sees the black lines Neo was talking about in his dream and follows them. As they do the sentinels multiply in number. Out of a cloud of squiddies a pair of huge machines appear. Trinity tries to fly between them but the ship is hit by a laser and the controls become useless. The logos crashes hard as a swarm of squids chase it. The minute the ship stops tumbling the sentinels are on it cutting it to pieces. In the wreckage they find Neo and Trinity lying there holding hands. One of the squids pull Neo away from Trinity who is obviously dead. His body is lifted up and flown slowly towards the heart of the machine city. In front of a large black building with flickering lights neo is dropped into the hands of ugly brown human sized mahines that look like ants. They bring him inside a empty chamber lock him on a table and a probe is jammed into his neck hole. He wakes up in a construct all white with no distinguishing features.

    The commander and the councilor join Morpheus and the rest of the crew board the last ship. They leave zion and head towards broadcast depth. They see giant machines which are like mobile squiddie manufacturing plants. Sentinels attack immediately, quickly they are all over the ship and are cutting through the hull. The councillor is pulled out of the ship trying to push the kid out of the way. The commander holds off the squiddies on the ship with a laser but too many are getting in and he gets ripped to pieces by one from behind him. They are crawling along the inside of the ship chasing the kid.

    The Oracle appears in the contruct and begins talking with Neo. The Oracle explains the machines position to Neo. The matrix must be reloaded and Smith must be destroyed. Neo knows this isn’t the oracle so the machine takes the form of the architect. The architect then explains that maybe we should have been more carefull to understand the basic functioning of the matrix. Then the frenchguys wife appears and argues that the system must be stabilized regardless of the outcome. The french guy then appears and says that they can not be set free. this goes on with different characters apearing, it is like a machine council meeting. Finally neo stops the debate with the idea that only he has the choice. the machines agree and negotiate with neo. Neo begins to explain the sacrifice he has made and what he wants in return.

    Niobe and Morpheus are kissing while the squiddies continue to tear their ship apart. Suddenly the sentinels stop the giant factories cease pumping out sentinels. Niobe runs to the screens and sees Neo in the matrix. Morpheus looks at the code and his shoulders drop, he realizes trinity is dead. Neo faces off with smith in the rain. They attack each other after a few taunts They fight on the ground and in the air destroying the buildings around them. Everytime Smith gets in a good shot his doubles all grin from every window and door in the matrix. Neo is kicking Smiths ass most of the time but finally Smith jams his hand into Neo’s chest, but Neo concentrates and smith starts to become Neo then suddenly Neo becomes Smith. Back in the machine city the ant machines unplug Neo. Smith says “no” then drops on the ground, the rains stop and all the smith clones begin to turn back into the people he had taken over.

    On the ship the sentinels back off but the kid collapses. Niobe notices that the code has changed. Morpheus says the kid is dead. Inside the architects room the architect is being taken over, he fights but the kid appears there. Neo enters the room. He explains that the threat is gone he has smiths code. Neo tells him that the balance must be maintained at all costs. The kid nods, you must reload. I know what to do. Neo enters the door.

    Morpheus and Niobe are walking through the matrix. Morpheus is explaining that all these people must be freed. Niobe says that he knows what that would mean. He talks about what he had hoped would happen and that Neo said the prophecy must be forced to become real. behind them an agent walks holding his earpeice and glaring at them.



    It's not legit, and frankly your version is better

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