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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
Patient_Zero
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posted 05-16-2003 01:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Patient_Zero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ugh, please, first off, BigStupidDuke or whatever, you only prove ignorance in your statement. "I only liked the action, teh rest suxx0red cuz like it was all deep and stupid"

This movie was probably one of the most amazingly moving pieces of film ever produced. If you lack to comprehend that, its probabaly because you lacked to comprehend the movie.

[This message has been edited by Patient_Zero (edited 05-16-2003).]

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Patient_Zero
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posted 05-16-2003 01:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Patient_Zero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok guys, heres my humble opinion and some real facts

Zion was NOT destroyed, that is PAINFULLY obvious, just the fleets Commander Lock sent.

Agent Smith is nothing more than a program, what he did though was take advantage of the matrix to help remove himself from it, like a parasite taking control of a host. The only thing that is truly connected to the matrix when a user "logs in" is the mind, but the matrix controls the mind, all aspects of it, so Agent Smith in essence reformats "that dudes" mind and replaces it with his own, like a parasite taking control of a host. Then the human is a realistic representation of Agent Smith, so he can be transferred into the real world, the perfect playing ground in which to destroy Neo, a world where there are realistic limitations (which i think we will obviously see in Revisited because of the blatant ending).

ill finish this later, muuuuuust sleeeep

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d2tw4all
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posted 05-16-2003 10:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for d2tw4all     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is no doubt there is a "Matrix within a matrix". Why? Because Neo isn't human, he's a program, and therefore couldn't exist in the "Real World". Neo can't be a program you say? Think really hard about it, you'll figure it out...
Tom

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Scorpius
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posted 05-16-2003 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpius     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Everybody in the matrix is a like a program. How did one of French guys said that Neo is human when he sees blood coming out of Neo’s hand while fighting? Note that one of agent got cut on his face while fighting with morpheus on top of the truck. How can one just say by a cut that ther person is a human or not simply just a program (having no physical existence in the real world)

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d2tw4all
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posted 05-16-2003 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for d2tw4all     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not "Like". Neo is like the Oracle or the architect or the keymaker, he's NOT human, he's a program! That is why the "real world" where Zion and the rest of the outcasts is also a matrix, because Neo couldn't exist there if it wasn't, Neo is not a human being...
Tom

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Morphenom
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posted 05-16-2003 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Morphenom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For those who have given this movie a negative critique, I ask a question; When was the last time you had a movie that challenged you to evaluate it on the pure entertainment level, depth of plot level, and depth of philosophical allegory level? For that, I give M2 a thumbs up -- with all the conditional comments (too much "rave into zion/x-stacy love" scene and not enough pure philosophical drama) stated in previous posts.

HOWEVER, I would like to contribute my opinion on the meanings of the final moments of the film.

As we all know, the 24 hours leading up to the destruction of Zion will be the subject of M3:Revolutions, so indeed the Architect is 1-for-1 in his clairvoyance. BUT, unlike previous versions of the Matrix, this Anomaly has anomalies:

1. The Oracle makes mention of the two things that bad programs do when they are bucking the system....The Merovingan did one, and Agent Smith did the other....BUT, Agent Smith has "Crossed the line"....so now that he is human, will his matrix programming continue to take over...or will the "human" side show up for a little "how to survive an attack from the machines training"?

2. How Neo acquired his "real world" power is not as interesting as WHY? Why did he "feel the machines" (and no I do not believe there is a Matrix in the Matrix - I doubt that the Brothers want to be know as the latest pimps of the old "Bobby Ewing" reset button) MY ANSWER - BECAUSE NEO IS AN UPGRADE - THE FIRST HUMAN TO ADVANCE HIS CODE TO BE ABLE TO INTERACT WITH THE MACHINES AT THEIR LEVEL. Why is that important, because THEY NEED US!

3. I don't believe the matrix constantly allows a new Zion be created just so they can fix the anomaly virus that eventually destroys thier power supply -- I BELIEVE THAT THE MACHINE RACE, JUST LIKE THE HUMAN RACE, HAS TO HAVE A PURPOSE. And thier purpose is war -- war with humans. What purpose do you have if you destroy ZION?...unless you can consistently destroy your enemy and recreate him again so that you can continue to war with him.

3. Remember in Zion Neo has a philosophical disscussion with the head of the council about what...the interdependence of humans and machines. The difference with humans being we have the power of choice. I believe that this movie has advanced that plot on 2 levels - the upgrade of Neo to machine like sophistication, and the "downgrade" of Agent Smith to human like inadequacies. I believe the best part of M3 will be the "revolutions" within.

-- A final note, how will Morpheus deal with the war raging within himself...the absolute purpose of his life has been exposed as a fraud....AND, he has the Agent Smith program resting inside...From John the Baptist to Judas? The W Brothers have put together an epic for our times.

Morphenom.

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Scorpius
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posted 05-16-2003 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpius     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I gathered this:
*****************


Zion is not destroyed.

Neo is “The One” and he is basically the 6th One.

The previous 5 “ONEs” went through the same process of reloading matrix. They chose the door to save Zion and eventually left with 23 individuals--16 females, 7 male--to rebuild Zion.

ASSUMPTION/IMPLIED: All the one’s must have lived their human lives in the leftover of Zion and fought to get to a solution. And in the end they died when they got old or in the matrix somehow.

Why “THE ONE” is “THE ONE”: Everybody in the matrix is a program. Even the human minds in the matrix are considered programs. As said by the architect – “Neo’s life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix”. It implies that the person (human mind) that has the maximum sum of the remainders (flaws) becomes the one. And it has happened 5 times in the past. Therefore the powers of a human mind in the matrix (say Morpheus, Neo, trinity) depends on the amount of flaws they had.
I DON’T KNOW WHERE I AM GOING.


“ORACLE” is a program that gathers information about humans in matrix. Architect said “An intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche.” That means she is a kind of Database (ORACLE database)

Because the Neo could control the senitels in the so called real world imples that real world is not a real world but another matrix. OR its just that he has got powers (after all it’s a fiction movie). And nothing concrete was shown to support any of the statements in the movie. Probably we’ll com eto know in the third part.

If the Neo is able to save Zion, then matrix will crash – So the programs/human minds living in it. Hence resulting in the mass death of 99% of the human race living in the pods that are source of energy for machines. Only 1% of the human race living in Zion will be left. Remember in the conversation of Architect and Neo:-
“Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.
Architect: We won't.”

So that means this was the last process of “THE ONE” meeting “The Architect”. Probably that implies that matrix is definitely going to crash.

Question that are unanswered
****************************

Is the real world another matrix? Apparently yes OR Neo is a superhuman BECAUSE he was able to feel and kill senitels in the end.
Who is this French guy and why is he there?
Was/Is the process of destroying Zion was part of the matrix program to wipe out the 1% anamolies (like a periodic process)? Was matrix afraid that if these anamolies increase in number they would defeat the machines(Apparently yes if they had developed 10000 machines like NEBU)? Is the whole process does the function of removing the unwanted remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix and the human anamolies?

I HAVE MORE QUESTIONS TO ASK. BUT THEY ARE NOT ON TOP OF MY HEAD RIGHT NOW.

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Scorpius
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posted 05-16-2003 03:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpius     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But I still couldn't understand why the french guy said "HE IS HUMAN" when Neo started bleeding.

quote:
Originally posted by d2tw4all:
Not "Like". Neo is like the Oracle or the architect or the keymaker, he's NOT human, he's a program! That is why the "real world" where Zion and the rest of the outcasts is also a matrix, because Neo couldn't exist there if it wasn't, Neo is not a human being...
Tom

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Carl J
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posted 05-16-2003 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carl J     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree, M2 does make you think, hence why most people have posted on here, either asking, or stating their opinions on some of the events that happened (neo's "superhuman" powers, zion being another matrix). But, personally, when I left the movie, it didn't make me think as much as the first one, which is understandable, since the first one, is well, the first one, and was made to really make you think "what if ...", and M2 & M3 try to explain the Matrix, while presenting a few more questions.

But like I said earlier, there are a few things that I didn't like about the movie, one being that certain scenes were too long (the movie felt like 3hrs, when it was only 2:15), and certain scenes sort of jumped around (I can't think off of the top of my head which ones, but I'll mention them after I see it again tonight).

Is Neo a "superhuman"? I don't think so. I agree with those who said Zion is another Matrix, made to make the 1% believe that they are in the "real world". And Neo somehow, just like in the first one, has found a way to "upgrade", and use his "powers" in the "real world".

But if Zion is another Matrix, that means everything we seen (The sentinels, the pods ..) in #1 is also part of a Matrix. Then why can't Agent Smith go to Zion (without "infecting" somebody), if Zion is just another program? Or is that why he was able to go to Zion, because the guy who he entered is just a program?

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Carl J
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posted 05-16-2003 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carl J     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scorpius:
quote:
But I still couldn't understand why the french guy said "HE IS HUMAN" when Neo started bleeding.

Not to sure, since trinty, morpheus, those white guys (forget their names), the keymaker, and a bunch of others also bled.

One other thing I wanted to point out, about Zion being a Matrix, and Neo's "superhuman" powers in Zion. One of the first things that the Arcitect said to Neo, after asking him a questions was something along the lines of "you're quicker than the others (the 5 ONES before him)." Which just shows that Neo has advanced further than anyone before him, which would explain why he could do, what he did near the end.

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mr.Anderson
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posted 05-16-2003 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mr.Anderson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
having only seen M2 once i feel that it has the concept of the fisrt movie to a whole new level.these are a few of my thoughts.

the idea that there are more than one matrix is a brilliant one on behalf of the machines because they know that the 1% of humans will not accept the program they have just created a program that they can accept and feel more comfoftable with. for eg.
if you are in a world that you despise and imprisoned in against your will then you will not accept it .so i believe that the second matrix was was created in parallel with the first to give this 1% that would not accept the program a feeling of being free and not being controled by the machines.this is is why i think that neo could feel the machines in there so called (real world) i think that he has only now been awakend to see the truth and the truth is there is no spoon. as metioned by the boy in the first movie i think that this ment more than the fact that the spoon wasnt real i think it might signify the fact that the world neo belives to be real actually isnt and this is i think why the spoon showed up in the second movie this time not in the matrix but in the so called (real world)this tells me that since the spoon was not all shiny and new as in the first but all dented and aged that it was past along by one of the 23 people that where chosen to rebuild zion and as the years went by and the population of zion grew to what it is now that would take alot of time so this is why the spoon has aged so much.so what this tells me is that the boy from the first movie was one of the 7 males of the 23 that where chosen to rebuild zion.this also tells me that zion was destroyed before so that the sstem could be rebooted hence the name re_loaded. now these are just my thoughts so bare with me just before the matrix was created and we where all to be enslaved i think neo was a product of a programmer that made the program of neo so maybe what he is is some sort of virus which also might have some credibility since that is what agent smith referd to them as in the first movie. ok enough for now let me know what you think about what i think

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d2tw4all
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posted 05-16-2003 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for d2tw4all     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok I guess I have to spell things out a little further... First of all, the programs in the matrix know about "The One" or Neo and realize that he is formidible, but they haven't fought him. So the "french guy" and his minions didn't know what to expect when they started to fight Neo, that's why they shot at him first, and he was surprised at Neo's powers. Put yourself in the french guy's shoes, here you are with all your henchmen around you shooting automatic weapons at "The One", and Neo merely holds up his hand and stops EVERY bullet! Wouldn't that scare you a little? Now if you were one of the henchmen you'd be even more scared, and when they start fighting him and he's absoluting stomping them, one guy vs. all of them, it seemed like he's indestructible. Then the guy hits him with the sword and he blocks it directly with his HAND, and you see their faces, they are like OH CRAP WE ARE DEAD AGAINST THIS GUY, but then he starts bleeding a little which shows WEAKNESS and the french guy just says "SEE, HE'S HUMAN" so that his henchmen realize that Neo isn't indestrucible and can be beaten, up to that point he was trouncing them so much they were starting to give up. You notice AFTER the french dude says that they all start getting up and fighting with a renewed energy because their confidence is up. There is no more too it than that! Anyway the kicker is that Neo isn't human at all, he was created by the Architect. I guess I have to use specific examples to explain this. If you recall the Architect's conversation with Neo, he reveals a lot. I'll post some of it here with comments:

First, he says about Neo:
"Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. you are the eventuallity of an anomaly which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden asciduously avoided it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexorably....here"

This can be read a lot of ways but alludes to Neo being artificial and an unpredictable neccessity. Note that the architect doesn't call Neo "The Anomoly" like agents have in the past, but instead calls him the eventuality, or RESULT of an anomoly...But later on it gets VERY interesting, as the Architect goes on to say:

"The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you cary, reinserting the prime program."

Ask yourself, WHAT IS THE "Prime Program" he speaks of. Ladies and gentlement, this gets to the crux of who, or "WHAT" Neo is, merely a construct that allows for the propogation of control over the 1% of humans who won't accept the matrix in it's normal form. The PRIME of something is usually an original, what the Architect is saying is that once Neo goes to The Source he will be reprogrammed with an original, or PRIME program that defines his function as "The One". He is saying that Neo serves a purpose because he was made to do so. ALSO, he doesn't say that Neo must "Go" to "The Source", he says very specifically that he must "RETURN TO" "The Source". RETURN TO, as in HE STARTED THERE. This alone is hardly conclusive, however let me continue with further quotes:

"it is interesting reading your reactions. Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication--a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific--vis a vie..love."

Note he says the predecessors were, BY DESIGN, based..... BY DESIGN. By design is very hard to misinterpret... Also note that he says they based on a tendency to create a "profound attachment" to humans, this is because their intent is for him to choose to repopulate Zion after it is purged from the 2nd matrix but he needs to choose to do so, so they don't program him to just do it, they program him to be as human as possible but push him in the right direction...
Basically Neo, while not human, is a conscious entity just like many of the higher level "programs" in the matrix. Neo was designed specifically to "be human", and has had 6 iterations to evolve. The cyle works like this, "The Source" inserts "The One" program (in this case, Neo) into the matrix when the population of Zion reaches a certain point. The Oracle is aware of this event and all along has been working with the 1% propogating a self fulfilling prophecy which she works with the architect to complete. The One is programmed to be as human as possible, but is more than that, which explains why he is so powerful in the matrix. By design he was made to break the rules of the Matrix and to evolve, as well as to bond with the humans that have left. The Oracle steers The One to his eventual purpose which is to fulfill the prophecy, where the one ends the war between humans and machines, IE the DESTRUCTION of Zion. The prophecy NEVER says HOW the war will end, nor who will win it, just that "The One" will be the one who ends it... Neo has however bucked this trend because he has evolved more than his previous iterations and instead of focusing on humankind in general he fell in love with one human in particular, making an illogical "choice" which shouldn't be possible with a program when he chooses to save Trinity instead of repopulate Zion. So, if that proves that Neo isn't real, guess what then, the Zion "Real World" is NOT real, it's another Matrix, because if Neo isn't real he can't leave the matrix into the "Real World" which also explains Neo's abilities carrying over into it once he makes the realization as well as Agent Smith's ability to take over another human. This actually would explain a lot of things I found problems with the first movie. The first problem I always had with the first Matrix was the fact that the machines just let the bodies of "enlightened" humans who reject the matrix fall alive into the water down a glorified waterslide, where they can so easily be picked up by waiting humans that have also escaped. If the human problem was so bad that the machines are digging through the earth to get at them, the first logical thing that even I would do is make sure that any human who "came to" in their pod, was killed. Dead or alive, their material can be recycled either way and they are left for dead when they fall into the cess pool when they are purged. Why not kill them first which makes it certain that the machines arch enemies, the 1% matrix refugees don't get nearly as many new recruits? Well if the "real world" is really just another matrix, that means that Morpheus, and everyone else are STILL IN PODS PROVIDING POWER. STILL UNDER MACHINE CONTROL. The machines don't care if they THINK they have escaped, they actually propogate that assumption which allows them to control them. That allows for 100% control of their power source, the 99% in the matrix and the other 1% in the bigger matrix who wouldn't accept the first one. Does this make sense? The problem is, as the architect explains:

Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice...even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.

Basically they need to cut their losses once the 1% gets too large in numbers, or their interference will bring the whole system down, hence the cycle they CREATED, with "The One", The Oracle, and The Prophecy, that ensures that once the Zion population reaches a certain level it needs to be purged so they can maintain control. I think here is where things get interesting though. Neo chose differently from the rest of "The One's", at least from what we are lead to believe. I think this is getting into what is going to happen going further with the 3rd movie, as Neo is realizing at least to some degree that what he believes to be the "Real World" isn't anything but another Matrix, he may be able to break out of it somehow, or stop the destruction of Zion somehow. By the way, Zion is not yet destroyed, Neo says it has 24 hrs. left, what was destroyed with the counter attack force which was most likely thwarted by Agent Smith in his crewman form. Now all of this is speculation and interpretation and whatnot, and I could be completely off base here, but it all makes sense to me anyway, I just can't wait to see the outcome to see if I'm on or not...
Tom


quote:
But I still couldn't understand why the french guy said "HE IS HUMAN" when Neo started bleeding.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by d2tw4all:
Not "Like". Neo is like the Oracle or the architect or the keymaker, he's NOT human, he's a program! That is why the "real world" where Zion and the rest of the outcasts is also a matrix, because Neo couldn't exist there if it wasn't, Neo is not a human being...
Tom


[This message has been edited by d2tw4all (edited 05-16-2003).]

[This message has been edited by d2tw4all (edited 05-16-2003).]

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Carl J
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posted 05-16-2003 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carl J     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
d2tw4all:
So far, I think you have the best answer, with your "novel" sized explanation. Especially with why the Sentinels don't kill the humans when they are "freed" from their pods. I had totally forgotten about this, but now that you mention it, I remember wondering the same thing when I last watched part 1.
As for Agent's Smith's explanation of the spoon, I'm not sure if I agree with the whole thing, BUT, I do think its basically a "clue", about what's real, and what's not.

At least this time, we only have to wait 6 months before the next one, and not 3 years.
(:

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surfengine
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posted 05-16-2003 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for surfengine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My question is what was the spoon and why didnt Neo give it to the Oracle?

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Ulster
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posted 05-16-2003 10:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's an interesting thought that may tie everything mentioned thus far together.
Remember the scene with the Merovingian. He and Neo seem to have a LOT in common. Even to the point where Persephone wants a kiss from Neo to remind her how it used to be. He knew a lot about choices. I think it is probable that the Merovingian was a former "One".

But, the Oracle also said that the Merovingian was a program, I believe she said he was one of the originals. Also, note that the Merovingian surrounded himself with lot's of rogue programs (i.e. ghosts and werewolves). It is clear that the Merovingian is a program.

If both statements are true, then Neo is a program.

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Ulster
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posted 05-16-2003 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow. Read this web page for more info on the real life Merovingian. I think it explains a lot about the Matrix.
http://adam23.freeyellow.com/

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SANN
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posted 05-16-2003 11:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SANN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hi,

i just watched the superbowl teaser over again and there's some interesting footage and audio revealed that was not in the teaser after M2. Apparently, at some point Neo is taken prisoner by the Merovingian and Trinity (and Morpheus?) go to Club Hell (documented elsewhere) to rescue him. In the teaser, you can hear the Merovingian's voice say something to the effect that Trinity is willing to die for Neo... interesting. i think it could go either way with Neo being a program himself or perhaps the matrix within a matrix theory...or both. anyone know if the teaser after M2 has been posted on the web yet?

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Reeper
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posted 05-16-2003 11:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Reeper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with the statements that there are 2 matrixes and neo is an evolving program that can live in the "real world". Here is how i know there are 2 matrixes. In the first one, Smith said "I must get free... Once zion is desroyed there is no more reason for me to be here." OK, so smith is saying that he REALLY wants to get out of the matrix and return to the real world. Well in the second movie, He did that, didn't he? Smith infected a "freed mind" and left the matrix to the "real World" If Smith has infected someone and traveled to the real world, should he not be content with that? no, because there are two matrixes and he still is in one of them and he knows that. This is how i can prove the "2 matrix theory". Since Neo took the other door and saved trinity, zion will most likely fall unless he can pull something "WOW" off. Well after watching the trailer for the third movie, it came off to me that he still is not free and wants to become free by killing Neo. And that makes sence. Neo is the only hope for zion, Smith wants to REALLY kill Neo from what i saw in the M3 trailer. And so if Smith killed Neo, then zion would fall and from what smith said in the first video (quoted above) zion must fall for him to leave the matrix. But he is already out of the matrix through infecting the "freed mind" person. so why would he care if he killed neo and if zion fell? because he is not in the TRUE real world, he is in the "second" matrix and he knows that.

Please do not only post your
coments on my discovery here.
send ANY comments you have to

efrie05@hotmail.com

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sinjin987
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posted 05-16-2003 11:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sinjin987     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the first line spoken by the Architect concerning Neo has been overlooked (with regards to the whole "is Neo human or a program debate"):

"You have many questions, and though the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human ergo some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not."

Though this may be a ruse on the part of the Architect, if taken at face value it can be seen as proof that Neo is human, and not a program.

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Ulster
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posted 05-16-2003 11:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sann, thanks for the info on the trailer and "Club Hell". It supports another theory I developed after reading the link I listed below. Try reading through the entire link and then think the following:
Architect = God
Neo = Christ
Merovingian = Lucifer

Lucifer was God's chosen angel before he turned bad and was cast out of heaven. In the movie, Merovingian is possessed with power. This is supported by the Oracle stating that Merovingian craves more power. Neo on the other hand is driven by protecting Zion.

Also, in the link below there are many references to the "key". There are the followers of Michael who seek the key and followers of Lucifer who try to keep the key from everyone else. Parrallels are obvious.

One more key item: Persephone is a greek mytho who was married to Hades, god of the underworld, i.e. Lucifer.

Something to chew on. Merovingian is the key to understanding the premise.


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sinjin987
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posted 05-17-2003 12:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sinjin987     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting points, Ulster. Another (lengthy) article on the Merovingian mythos can be seen here:
http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/merovingian-twyman.htm

It talks of the Merovingian bloodline as being the progenitors of the Atlantean civilization (an allusion to the "First" matrix?), as well as its apparent ties to most of the Western World's mythology and religion.

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karus
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posted 05-17-2003 12:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for karus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think that d2tw4all has summed up most of the theory in the long post. However, there are a couple of interesting ideas to consider when we see the 'matrix within the matrix'. Firstly, The reason that Zion exists is because people refuse to accept the first matrix. Therefore, wouldn't it be plausible that if Neo tells the freed people in Zion the truth, (that they are still in the matrix) wouldn't the Zionites then choose to be free of the matrix and reject Zion as well. This would cause problems for the machines, as people would start waking up as the truth is being told. Remember the annoying kid? He freed himself from the Matrix. This would be possible, knowing what the Zionites know. Think About it.

Also. Neo now knows that The Matrix and Zion are connected through a computer program. So does Agent Smith. Both know that the codes can be altered and made to do what they want it to do. Therefore, couldn't Smith and Neo go between Zion and the Matrix freely, without having to be "plugged in". This could be the reason that they are both unconcious at the final scene... maybe they are in the Matrix at that very time.

It is very possible that Neo is infact a program, and very likely probable. However, the Architect seems to make references to Neo being both human and Machine, as he says, "you remain irrevocably human". One theory to this is that Neo is infact a human plugged into the dual matrix, but has been "reformatted" in the same way (or similarily) that Agent Smith did to the crew member ( I forget his name). This would make absolute sense if we were to compare Neo to Christ, as Christ was both truly human, and truly God. - Neo truly human and truly computer -

Maybe.. I'll think about it.

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srblock
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posted 05-17-2003 12:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for srblock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If 'The One' has made a different choice this time, then why, when he turned to the left door, did all of the first five 'ones' on the video screens behind him turn the same way?
And if there was no Trinity, no personal love for the first five 'ones', what was the choice they had to make to take the left door?

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karus
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posted 05-17-2003 12:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for karus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Neos on the computer screens are not the other 5 ones. They are a list of all the possible choices that Neo could make in that situation. Notice that there are different answers to each question.. except when he says "bullsh*t" The Architect says "Denial is ALWAYS the human response" or something like it.

NEO Was not the other 5 ones. He is only the 6th one.

quote:
Originally posted by srblock:
If 'The One' has made a different choice this time, then why, when he turned to the left door, did all of the first five 'ones' on the video screens behind him turn the same way?
And if there was no Trinity, no personal love for the first five 'ones', what was the choice they had to make to take the left door?

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srblock
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posted 05-17-2003 01:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for srblock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If the Neos on the screens were not the earlier 'ones', why did they count backwards in response? Neo was already told he was the 6th one.

Neo: You haven't answered my question.

Architect: Quite right. Interesting...that was quicker than the others.

(TV "Neo"s:
Others [how many others?] what others? answer my question!)

Architect: The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the 6th version.

(Tv Neos:
5 ones before me? 4...3..2.. what are you talking about? There are only 2 possible explanations, either no one told me....)
Neo: ...or no one knows.

quote:
Originally posted by karus:
The Neos on the computer screens are not the other 5 ones. They are a list of all the possible choices that Neo could make in that situation. Notice that there are different answers to each question.. except when he says "bullsh*t" The Architect says "Denial is ALWAYS the human response" or something like it.

NEO Was not the other 5 ones. He is only the 6th one.



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BlackICE
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posted 05-17-2003 02:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlackICE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If they give "The ONE" a choice (the choice being the door on the left or right) then there must be some sort of control for that as well.
Thoughts?

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mr.Anderson
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posted 05-17-2003 02:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mr.Anderson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok ive had a little more time to think about this and the more i do the more thing seem to fit into place but then again this is just my thoughts i could be wrong but here i go anyways 8)

like i was saying in my previous post about neo being a virus i believe this to be true because since neo chose the other door which would in turn reload the matrix and destroy zion after he saved trinity he and agent smith were both in a coma. now when a system reloads or reboots it is in a coma like state just like when you reset your computer it dosent realy do anything until it has finished loading.so what i am saying is if neo is a virus program as referd to by agent smith then when the system was reloaded then he would reload thus being in a coma like state and this brings me to yet another thought about agent smith who is also in a coma who is to me since i am reffering to neo as a virus he is a anti virus program and i believe that this is what the main driving force is for agent smith because that is what is programmed to do is hunt and destroy virus's . so with all this said i think that zion has fallen but not like the previous 5 times this time neo knows he can control the machines in that world to so with him awakend to the truth of zion being another matrix will drive him to awaken the others and thus causing the revolution.now another thing about neo being a virus to me is the fact that he can see everything in code only a program could do this because morpheuos dosent trinity either.now back to the zion thing even though neo took the other door and zion is to be destroyed they still have 24 hrs before this happens so this would see like the prime time to awaken everyone to the truth about the matrix since it is down and reloading now is the time to strike i would think.

[This message has been edited by mr.Anderson (edited 05-17-2003).]

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crack_m0nkee
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posted 05-17-2003 02:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for crack_m0nkee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have any of you seen the animatrix. i believe there is an import aspect of the last episode that might give some more insight. The young guy in the movies that Neo "saved" (the guy that idolizes Neo in the movie) is the same guy in the last episode of the animatrix. In the animatrix episode, this guy realeses himself from the matrix with out any outside help. He just believes and wakes up. Thats why in the movie (for those of you that havent seen the animatrix) Neo tells the guy "no, you saved yourself" This migt help explain what happened at the end of the movie. If there is a second matrix and neo realized it (because of his ability to feel the sentinels) he may have found a way to awaken himself into the real "real world" just as the kid woke himself from the first matrix. Just a thought, tell me what you think.

oh ya and on a nother note, zion hasnt been destroyed yet because, a) before neo went into a coma he said there was still 24 hours left till the attack, and b) they clearly said it was a surprise attack taht was destroyed, the commander made a strategic decision to make a , sorry for the term, premtive strike

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crack_m0nkee
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posted 05-17-2003 02:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for crack_m0nkee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ps i love the photographic memory guy who posted the architecht and neo scene, good stuff

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klingsor
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posted 05-17-2003 03:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for klingsor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are several points I'd like to comment on but I can't get to them all. I'll just focus now on some of these I haven't seen mentioned yet.

My basic point is that we're focusing too much on the Oracle and Architect when the really crucial characters in the movies are Agent Smith and Neo.

- Although the Matrix trilogy is about many things I think it's primary plot is the conflict between agent Smith and Neo. If there are two arch nemeses, they're Neo and Smith. The first movie ends shortly after agent Smith is "killed" and the second one ends with them laying beside each other in comas. I believe the Matrix trilogy is about them more than anything else: about machines coming to understand humans and vice versa. The Oracle alluded to this as much and the councilman said something similar about the interdependence of machines and humans. Both need to share the planet and both could benefit from each other's knowledge.

- Here's something interesting: remember in the first movie Agent Smith's contempt for humans? What did he call humans? He likened us to a virusn because of our greed and appetite for expansion. Yet what did Agent Smith become when he was faced with death and the prospect of deletion? He became a virus himself. Ironic... or is there a point to this?

- Agent Smith mentions that a part of Neo's powers were transferred to him when Neo killed him in the first movie. Remember the attempt by Agent Smith to kill Neo with his new "liquid mercury envelopment" method in Matrix 2? Neo said that it felt like the first time he died. I believe a part of Agent Smith's powers were transferred to Neo at that moment and thus he later gained the capability in the "real world" to stop the sentinels (although apparently at a price as he's in a coma).

- Note that the title of the third movie is "Revolutions." That's plural, implying that more than one revolution takes place. It's a stretch but it's more than just the overthrow of the Matrix, I think.

- We still haven't heard the machines and their side of the story (or have we?). The third part may have a lot of that. Realize that in the second part the "machines" have been given a face. There are more than just agents gunning for the crew, there are old programs who refuse to die, the Architect, old programs who don't like being upgraded and replaced...

Food for thought.

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crack_m0nkee
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posted 05-17-2003 03:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for crack_m0nkee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
good points klingsor, there truly is more behind neo and smith then said out straight. In the movie smith said that he wasnts the same thing as neo, and that life cannot go on without purpose. Never once do neo or smith actually say what their purpose is. other poeple have told neo that his purpose is to end the war, but is that truly his purpose?

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srblock
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posted 05-17-2003 03:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for srblock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I loved the Oracle in the first movie. Makes sense that she would be a likable character since we find out that she is "An intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche."
It's a good plot twist, but I'm personally disappointed to learn that she really can't be trusted, she isn't helping Neo to free humankind, but only fulfilling her role as a program in propagating the propaganda of 'the prophecy' that Neo can destroy the machines, to bring him back to the Source.
Who can you trust these days???


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crack_m0nkee
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posted 05-17-2003 03:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for crack_m0nkee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the oracle is not the intuitive program to explore human psych, its another unintroduced character. when the architecht said that there was a mother, neo said "the oracle?" and there architecht replied "please. as i was saying..." implying neo was terribly mistaken, the oracle is either a sympathetic programm or part of a controle programm to make neo reboot the matrix.

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srblock
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posted 05-17-2003 03:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for srblock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just took the Architect's "please" as a dismismal of her being called 'the Oracle' or fortune teller, when from his knowledable perspective, she is a program who would of course know all that is happening, and maybe to come in the Matrix.
Anybody else have a reading on this?

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Carl J
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posted 05-17-2003 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carl J     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Excuse my ignorance, but could someone explain something to me?
In both movies (I think it's in the first one), this line was repeated (or something like this):
"You didn’t come here to make the choice. You’ve already made it. You’re here to try to understand why you made it"

Or is this in reference to him choicing the pill, and being awakened, and now he must understand why he's "the one"?

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