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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
NeoMorph
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posted 11-05-2003 07:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am now glad to put this MiM BS nonsense to bed. Sorry MiM belivers....

The WB said this is the LAST Matrix movie, and it should be. Good trilogy, good story line. And quick freaking getting all ticked off because certain things didn't get explained. Where is that in the movie rulebook that "everything has to be explained"?

Chill...

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Deuz_ZeX
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posted 11-05-2003 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deuz_ZeX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SPOILERS!!!

Just came off it and have a few things to say. The confusion I think was made by the Wachowski brothers to make people think.
In the end "the others" can be two different thing. First it may be humans freed by other humans like what has been done in the previous films. The second (Im not sure but very possible) its programs who want to be free as spoken about before, renegade programs who live in exile.
Humans and machines living together is possible but only in certain ways. Machines dont like the human body, like Smith said. Also seen on the Animatrix, Matriculated, "The machines appetite for the "human matrix" may exceed the humans ability to supply it." Therefor we know that the machines and humans cant possible live together the same way but they must live together in their seperate way (still following). And off course how can they live together wouldnt that bring to them to square one. Without war there would be no civilitation, someone has to do something horrible so that the others can know whats right and whats wrong.
Neos superhuman power, as said "the powers of the one exceed the matrix", but only so far, thats why he couldn´t stop all the machines nor cure Trinity. Please confront me with some facts because Im confuse, like everyone else. These are at least my thoughts on it but great Trioligy btw.

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no. 47
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posted 11-06-2003 03:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I really enjoyed the movie, though I was expecting something more complicated from the final trilogy. I never really expected Smith to be the "main bad guy", I've always thought of him as a henchmen or a hatchetman. ...but I guess it was consistent with the story line. He being unplugged then eventually being replugged again. Guess he never expected that hehehe...and the previous six time the machines really did erradicate the people of Zion. But why? Where they really a threat to them? Is there a correlation with the inhabitants of Zion and with Smith programs running amok in the matrix?...uhm I'm I guess it was smith that cause the matrix to crash the previous six times and the only option left for the machines was to reboot the matrix and start of with another "garden of eden"

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myrddin
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posted 11-06-2003 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for myrddin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Loved Revolutions.
It seems to me that the ending means, essentially, the Oracle planned this all along.
Her job is to "unbalance" the equation. So she created the whole "One" prophecy & hype just like the other 5 times, except this time she's tired of the same old thing happening again and instead wants real change. So she gives Smith extra powers. Smith said in Reloaded, "It's happening just as before... Well, not exactly." He also said as much in Revolutions when talking to the Oracle, something to the effect that "I'm different this time." Maybe he's aware that the Oracle made him different this time, and acknowledges this by calling her "Mom".

Anyway, I also think the Oracle gave Neo his powers. Humans bred by the machines are full of mechanical implants (like that 6-inch matrix plug in the back o' their heads), so it wouldn't be that hard for a powerful program like the Oracle to devise a way for a special chip or code or additional implant to be put in Neo, which gives him power in the Matrix and a kind of electrical-overload defense circuit he uses in the real world, and backup electrical eyesight that kicks in when his real eyes are disabled. These powers are results of implants secretly put in him by the Oracle.

Anyway, Smith absorbs the Oracle, so it seems. But she created him and knows where his "self-destruct code" is. Smith is never in control when he absorbs the Oracle, she just gives him the illusion he is, so he can fulfill his purpose, confident he will destroy Neo.

As for what happens after he absorbs Neo, and just what significance Neo had in destroying Smith... well I leave that to you. It seems to have to do with what happened at the end of M1.

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Bluedevil
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posted 11-06-2003 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluedevil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Itendstonight...
I wish it WOULD have ended like the plot summary...
Did anyone else feel...."cheated"..in a way?

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Deuz_ZeX
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posted 11-06-2003 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deuz_ZeX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That was the plot, to leave us with questions. Haven´t you ever heard, a good movie makes you think and leaves you with some questions.

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Themadscientist
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posted 11-06-2003 09:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Themadscientist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The last matrix sucked. It seemed the wachahoski bros dropped the ball on the last part.Cartman from southpark wrote this. Just replace a savior (any you choose) with NEO, add mechwarriors and sprinkle in some dragon ball Z and there you go part 3. The wasted their budget and made this fill in crap. A far better ending would have been Neo (the anomaly) and Virus Smith battle, crash the matrix(s) and then everyone gets dumped (from the pods) to their surprise in the new world in the pool of that dirty water, Then decide to rebuild it (all bald and atrophied).Also Why is the oracle always giving NEO a RED piece of candy??? SO he can wake up??? IE pII matrix in a matrix (hence his powers) gets wrapped up in a nice little ball. If you notice the 2 reasons for the machines enslaving us was we tried to destroy them when they got too smart for us (ala planet of the apes), and they needed a power source since we darkened the skies (they were solar powered). Well in pIII near the end they fly above the clouds and the sun is bright and beautiful. So if that was true then they wouldn't have needed us at all, logic would dictate they would either let us go knowing that we couldn't harm them, or having the probability of us getting back on our feet, and being spiteful just smite us down. Other gripes, no autoguns (on ship or city) to defend the city. No extra emp's, (12 hours to death and no one makes an emp???) no nukes tucked away to destroy the machine city. No asians (whos gunna engineer all that stuff) Hispanics or Indians (American or otherwise) in Zion and those stupid apocalyptic clothes, ain't no self respecting Black,Asian,Hispanic/and Or Indian wear no crap like that for 300 years. See at least of we would have been there we woulda made some banging clothes. Priorities Air scrubbers, Food Machine and A LOOM HELLO. At least they had hair care products. More gripes, our savior is a skinny white guy, (he dies for us, many sneaky little judeochristan references like when he dies and how he's postioned) and the only white guy in Zion is on the counsil. Anybody with me on this one?

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Themadscientist
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posted 11-06-2003 09:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Themadscientist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your version sounds like what the ending should have been. I wouldn't have been so disappointed in the movie if you wrote it, or maybe you did and the funding ran out.

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Bluedevil
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posted 11-07-2003 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluedevil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Deuz_ZeX:
That was the plot, to leave us with questions. Haven´t you ever heard, a good movie makes you think and leaves you with some questions.

A good movie also wraps up story lines...It's one thing to leave some points to the imagination but to leave as many loose ends as this movie did was crimminal...
I could list 10 things that we all don't have a clue about that were supposedly KEY points in the 1st and second movies...
Why after developing the characters as they did...did the importacne of the story diminish and effects become the most important thing? After being lead to believe that Mervenge (sp) was such a KEY character he was probably in the movie for 15 minutes....Why was Morpheus who has been such a key player all of a sudden a bit player in the last movie...(why not have him face down Merv)The oracle...well I bet we never knew that she was basically running the whole show...

and help me with this...Neo gets burned to the point he is blind...why if he was in the REAL world is he not in agony? I never saw him take anything for the pain, etc...

What did Neo do to save the kid that opened Gate 3? They played that up just so he could dramatically open the gate??

Why make us think Neo is possibly alive? End the story...

I also don't mind that Trinity died but for the role that she has played in this movie you must admit "a crash" was lame...

I'll stop here...I don't want it to appear I'm venting...

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Bluedevil
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posted 11-07-2003 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluedevil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What do you think about this?
------------------------------------
The way I see it, there are three central storylines:
1) The actual “plot” of the movie: The human race vs. machines
And two underlying sub-topics:
2) Christian and religious themes at play (Neo as Jesus, angels, devil, holy Trinity, Mark 3:11, fate vs. free will, sixth book of the bible, “logos”=the word of god, etc.)
3) Internal computer themes at play (viruses, back doors, hacking, etc.)

The brilliance of the crafting of the trilogy lies in the combining of all three into one conglomerate super-plot.
I’m assuming most people have a handle on this concept by now, and by the looks of it, this post is gonna be long enough as is, so I’ll spare you the details concerning the first plotline listed above. But it is impossible to ignore many aspects of the other two that, for whatever reason, don’t receive much discussion. First, some random observations and thoughts that I found interesting:

An interesting tidbit concerning the religious plotline: Logos refers to “the word of God,” or, more commonly, “the unifying purpose of the world,” in Greek mythology and metaphysics. So as Neo (Jesus reference) approaches the Machine City, it is no coincidence that he is in the ship called the Logos. He is carrying god’s word, or, an offer for the unification of the world—this explains why he is not overwhelmed by the masses of sentinels that he cannot destroy himself (because he is on a holy mission), and why a passage through the sky (through “heaven”) is safe for them to take.

The title of the movie is “Revolutions.” This carries a couple levels of meaning. First, there is an obvious correlation between a revolution and the cyclical phrase “Everything that has a beginning has an end.” This sentence serves as the base structure for the proceedings of the film.

Also, the victory is a “revolution” in the sense that the cycle of reloading has been broken. Neo’s love for Trinity, as opposed to a general connection to the human race (as seen in the 5 previous “The Ones”) allowed him to choose the door that none of the others had chosen. In turn, this allowed the growth of the “cataclysmic system crash” (a.k.a. the Agent Smith virus) to be perpetuated, culminating in a force so powerful and transportable that it threatens the machines themselves. In turn, there is a motivation for the machines to accept a peace offering from Neo—the motivation being the destruction of Agent Smith. Without the help of Neo (the “anti-virus”), the machines cannot hope to combat the threat of the proliferation of Smiths. Thus, Neo’s love for Trinity indirectly results in a “victory” for mankind—the end of the war, and the oncoming of a seemingly peaceful era.
There are just way too many correlations between Neo and Jesus to ignore. 1) Many characters refer to him in very Jesus-like terms. He is called “my own personal Jesus Christ,” “the messiah,” “the savior,” and others. 2) He dies at one point, and is resurrected ala Christ. 3) He is the sixth version of “the One,” but he differs from the five before him. In the Bible, there are five books in the Old Testament, much of which chronicles Moses. Thus, the sixth installment in the series would be the New Testament, characterized by Jesus. In this sixth installment, Jesus comes from the heavens to lead his people to redemption—he is their savior. In the sixth version of the Matrix, Neo does the same. 4) At the end of Revolutions, Neo is seen lying in a crucified position, with arms spread and legs together (an obvious Christ reference).

The next topic concerns the Merovingian. He is a “daemon.” This word can have two meanings, each of which apply: 1) Daemons are supernatural beings between mortals and gods, such as inferior divinities and ghosts of dead heroes; a malignant spirit that can possess humans. 2) a computer term; a particular class of computer program which runs in the background, rather than under the direct control of a user (from Wikipedia). He is not god, nor is he a normal, mortal man (partially explaining how he managed to survive the shifts between so many versions of the Matrix). He is also an example of the traditional idea of a “demon.” A devil, in a way, Lucifer himself (or a representation of Lucifer). The mythical Lucifer, once a high and exalted angel, second only to Jesus in reveredness, fell from grace and became ruler of the underworld (Hell). Some hints as to how we can see this identity of the Merovingian: 1) Since Lucifer turned against the righteous angels because he felt betrayed by them, the Merovingian refers to Seraph (an obvious reference to an angel) as “Judas” (or “great traitor”). 2) The Merovingian’s club is called “the Hell Club.” 3) He and Persephone wear black and red, the traditional colors representative of Satan and of hell. 4) His wife is Persephone, the mythological queen of the underworld, and wife of Hades. It is not certain that the Merovingian is a manifestation of Lucifer, but there is certainly some evidence (the Architect also carries some similarities in that regard).

In the train station, the street sign says “Mobil Ave.” Mobil is an anagram of “limbo.” The train station represents limbo, the intermediary between heaven (here represented by Zion) and hell (here, the Matrix). Makes sense I suppose.

The conversation with the Indian guy seems to be some sort of materialization of the powers of love that had and have since been hinted at. He is ushering his daughter into the Matrix out of love, and Trinity is able to bring Neo out of Limbo because of love (because of her willingness to do anything for him that forces the Merovingian, at gunpoint, to allow Neo to go). In the computer storyline, the Sati may simply be a program in need of purpose, so that she does not get deleted. She finds this purpose with the Oracle. Her purpose is hope and love—this is manifested in the sunrise she creates.

On to more important issues. In terms of the computer plotline, Neo is the “anti-virus” to the Smith virus. According to Smith, when Neo killed him at the end of Matrix 1, he became “unplugged.” He was “no longer an agent of the system.” In other words, he had gained sovereignty over himself, and any connection that he had had to the machine city was now severed. He was now working against both man and machine. The machines had originally written the program for Smith, but in order to destroy this now-menacing virus, the machines would need to somehow re-establish the connection that had existed before. They would need to re-obtain a link to Smith. This link comes in the form of Neo.
After the machines plug Neo into the Matrix, and after Neo’s epic showdown with Smith, Smith clones Neo. Now, since Neo is plugged into the machines back in the machine city, and Neo is now infected with the Smith virus, the machines can once again have the ability to destroy the program, using the source codes that had helped to create it in the first place. These codes are the surges of energy that can be seen flowing into Neo’s body in the machine world. Once they are in the Matrix, the Smith program in its entirety is destroyed, leaving Neo and the Oracle lying in the mud in their old forms. After the virus has been destroyed, the people who had been infected by it regain their former appearances, explaining why the Oracle, Seraph, and Sati show up at the end in their normal forms.

The apparent problem lies in that if Smith becomes connected to Neo if he clones him, he himself will be destroyed, so why would he clone Neo if he knows this? We turn to the Merovingian for the answer. He states that “the eyes of the Oracle can not be taken; they can only be given.” When Smith visits the Oracle, she gives herself to him. She allows herself to be cloned by him, thus “giving him her eyes.” At the end of the movie, after Smith knocks Neo into the side of the crater, he says that he “has seen this before.” He recognizes the place, the situation, and he knows that this is “where it all ends.” It appears that since he has the eyes of the Oracle, he has had visions of this moment before. And since the Oracle is determined to help Neo’s cause, Smith’s visions were false—the Oracle had given Smith visions of him becoming victorious over Neo. This is the motivation for Smith to clone Neo, despite the risk of being plugged back into the machine city. He believes he will win right then and there.

Another explanation for why Smith clones Neo circles back to the point that the purpose of machines is to serve mankind. Men created them to serve that function. Therefore, although they would love to destroy the human race, they were created to serve them, and simply can’t end the human race. They need a being, a human, to make the choice for them (from a CorporateMofo article). This applies to Smith. He can all but destroy Neo, which would surely result in the destruction of humankind, but he cannot do so. He needs Neo to choose for him whether or not to clone Neo. Neo chooses “yes,” and Smith does it.

Sorry for the length on this one....

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myrddin
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posted 11-07-2003 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for myrddin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bluedevil:
I could list 10 things that we all don't have a clue about that were supposedly KEY points in the 1st and second movies...
Why after developing the characters as they did...did the importacne of the story diminish and effects become the most important thing? After being lead to believe that Mervenge (sp) was such a KEY character he was probably in the movie for 15 minutes....Why was Morpheus who has been such a key player all of a sudden a bit player in the last movie...(why not have him face down Merv)The oracle...well I bet we never knew that she was basically running the whole show...

and help me with this...Neo gets burned to the point he is blind...why if he was in the REAL world is he not in agony? I never saw him take anything for the pain, etc...

What did Neo do to save the kid that opened Gate 3? They played that up just so he could dramatically open the gate??

Why make us think Neo is possibly alive? End the story...

I also don't mind that Trinity died but for the role that she has played in this movie you must admit "a crash" was lame...

I'll stop here...I don't want it to appear I'm venting...



I'd rather you did list all your gripes that make this a terrible movie, because I'm having difficulty understanding the people who dimiss the whole movie because of a couple things they didn't like. The things you listed, to me are minor or non-issues because I understood them differently than you.

Like Neo's pain after being burnt. This stuff happens all the time to action heroes. It's a movie. We don't dismiss Raiders of the Lost Ark because Indiana Jones miraculously survives severe beatings and being shot, and keeps on fighting. Would you really rather see true reality in movies? Let's interrupt scenes in movies from now on so we can be "real" and show the main characters taking a pee. Or every time they eat. Or, let's watch while they sleep!

The Kid: Neo saved him in "The Animatrix". Maybe you missed that.

Morpheus: to me, if he'd had a bigger part in this part of the story, it would've seemed forced. Given his location and role in the movie (ship captain/prophet), there wasn't much left for him to do that wouldn't have been out of character. For example, the speech in "Reloaded" was a stretch: Did you want more moments like that? No thanks. With his ship gone, and his prophecy a sham, Morpheus' role was over by this movie. His part was good (aside from that speech) while it lasted.

The Merovingian: a non-issue for me. I never thought he was a hugely important character. He was a means to an end, a plot obstacle to be removed. I did think that Persephone might be more important than she was (given the kiss in Reloaded), but so what? I was wrong.

I can't label the entire movie a disaster just because I was wrong in guessing how it was going to end.

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DoogsDC
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posted 11-08-2003 02:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Like many others, I'm confused why there has been such a backlash against Matrix: Revolutions. Most say that they feel unsatisfied and confused by the ending.

But; my main response is: How else would it have ended?

Perhaps the predictibility of the plot was necessary to support the major philosophical undertone of the entire film.

I found the conversation between Neo and Smith in the "pit" at the end of their battle to be the most revealing part of the trilogy. In this scene, Smith asks Neo (paraphrase), "Why do you keep fighting?" Smith is unable to understand the reason why Neo won't give up and proposes several reasons, one of which includes a theme that many have felt overplayed throughout the series: love.

I had been disgusted throughout the entire course of the films about the trite concept of "love" ruling humanity; just as Smith had been.

To my delight, Neo replied, "Choice."

There you have it everyone. Among the entire myriad of philosophical and religious questions posed by the legacy of the matrix, the concept of free will and the determinism (causality) debate trumps all other issues.

Think about the entire purpose of the oracle. Think about her limitations.

After the second movie, I felt resigned to believe that we're all products of causality, as the Merovingian argued quite eloquently.

Upon further review of the third film, I realize why it took 7-8 hours of film time and a complex, carefully crafted script was required to argue the case for choice and free will.

I still wonder, "Did Neo really have a choice?" Could Neo have chosen to sit on his ass and do nothing? Could he have decided to reset the matrix in Reloaded?

And I find myself answering no. There's no conceivable way that Neo could have chosen some other option than what he was compelled to do.

And yes, love was in part his motivation. But was that the only reason?

Whenever there is a war, you have a choice to do nothing or a choice to fight. In world war II, we had a choice that we refused to make until utter catastrophe on December 7, 1941. The same thing happened on September 11, 2001.

In your day to day life, you have a choice about whether to keep on fighting or to cave in and allow the wind to toss you around where IT wants you to go.

That's what Neo was fighting against. He was fighting for his right to fight. From the time he took the red pill to the time he was "assimilated" by Agent Smith.

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alextardif
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posted 11-10-2003 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for alextardif     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While I loved the trilogy, I'm not sure what to think after seeing the Revolutions yesterday. Here are my two issues with the ending: 1) Two of the primary characters get canned (this isn't really a problem, but to me it's just not the "happy ending" that I'd like to see). 2) There was no closure to "what's going to happen now???" between the Zion and and rest of the world controlled by the machines. Yeah, sure the war is "over",... but is it??? Anywho, i'll need to see the movie again, as I'm not even sure about the ending - was the ending "a start of the new Matrix-cycle"???

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Bluedevil
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posted 11-10-2003 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluedevil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by myrddin:

I'd rather you did list all your gripes that make this a terrible movie, because I'm having difficulty understanding the people who dimiss the whole movie because of a couple things they didn't like. The things you listed, to me are minor or non-issues because I understood them differently than you.

Like Neo's pain after being burnt. This stuff happens all the time to action heroes. It's a movie. We don't dismiss Raiders of the Lost Ark because Indiana Jones miraculously survives severe beatings and being shot, and keeps on fighting. Would you really rather see true reality in movies? Let's interrupt scenes in movies from now on so we can be "real" and show the main characters taking a pee. Or every time they eat. Or, let's watch while they sleep!

The Kid: Neo saved him in "The Animatrix". Maybe you missed that.

Morpheus: to me, if he'd had a bigger part in this part of the story, it would've seemed forced. Given his location and role in the movie (ship captain/prophet), there wasn't much left for him to do that wouldn't have been out of character. For example, the speech in "Reloaded" was a stretch: Did you want more moments like that? No thanks. With his ship gone, and his prophecy a sham, Morpheus' role was over by this movie. His part was good (aside from that speech) while it lasted.

The Merovingian: a non-issue for me. I never thought he was a hugely important character. He was a means to an end, a plot obstacle to be removed. I did think that Persephone might be more important than she was (given the kiss in Reloaded), but so what? I was wrong.

I can't label the entire movie a disaster just because I was wrong in guessing how it was going to end.



Let's see...the movie can be summed up in this simple statement...

*style over substance*

I'm a "Matrix" fan but I know film flaws when I see them. Even if you can explain away every criticism regarding the more intricate story elements, "Revolutions" still falls flat on its face when it comes to acting, character development, and keeping to the original spirit of "The Matrix," which was a far more philosophical film. Bottom line: Movies have a right to be complex, but not complicated, and there is a difference. One shouldn't need a manual or a Ph.D. in computer science to make sense of it all.

What once was a fresh and interesting story line driven movie (The Matrix) turned into a special effects driven movie (Reloaded and Revolutions) what made the movies good were how the Story and the special effects were both EQUALLY good in the 1st movie.
In the 2nd and 3rd movies special effects seemed to be the focus rather than the attention to the plot..

The Brothers had an idea for a great movie. It was called "The Matrix". It had great characters and a cool world. It was a hard-sci-fi lovers dream come true. Finally, hard-sci-fi gets some respect in the theaters as more than just rockets and laser blasters with no plot.

Then happened "Reloaded" and "Revolutions", and any respect earned by the first movie was lost. The characters became flat. The world became uninteresting. Plot is replaced with hover ships, cannon blasters, and mech-warriors. And hard-science-fiction turned into some kind of weird, magical, mystery tour as Neo acquires Jedi-like powers that are NEVER explained.

"The Matrix" begins with a mystery: "What is the Matrix". By the end of "The Matrix" that mystery is answered. And in answering that mystery, the audience gets to watch the main characters struggle, develop, and overcome.

Rather than provide answers, the sequels start asking MORE questions, and leave it to the audience to purchase the video game, the Animatrix, and the sequel DVD's to get the answers.

Let me say that NOBODY expected perfection and you cannot please EVERY movie goer...
but what made the movie good seemed lost in the last movie especially..

Speaking of the last movie..
I never "dismissed" the entire movie....
2nd, I noticed that you said you can't label the entire movie a disaster...so I would have to think that you thought there were parts that were just that...
This was cute...

Let's interrupt scenes in movies from now on so we can be "real" and show the main characters taking a pee. Or every time they eat. Or, let's watch while they sleep!

Seeing all of that is not necessary but..

Neo gets electrocuted!!!!! Hero or not...his reaction was to say "Ouch...and then 5 minutes later he's good"?!?!? I don't think we need to see every detail but I sure would like to know how someone that just got electrocuted..burned in the face to the point he is blind..is unfazed and good to go...

Indiana Jones? LOL...Last I checked those are 3 separate adventure movies with the same central character...they aren't a trilogy...they don't tie in or mention each other...there are no story lines that are developed in Raiders that are explained in Crusade.....

Didn't miss the Animatrix, but my point was the development of characters in the 3 movies.... Is it assumed that everyone watched the Animatrix?...If it were necessary to watch the Animatrix to understand the movie then it wouldn't be a "trilogy"....

So again I say that EVERY question doesn't have to be answered but if your going to stretch a story over three movies and several years...let's not leave movie goers (casual or die hard) with so many open ended questions... Why do that? (well..money..and so people will debate for years)

Let's see to answer your other comments
-> The Merovingian: a non-issue for me.
THAT'S YOU BUT SEVERAL OTHER THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WOULD HAVE LOVED TO SEE HIS CHARACTER DEVELOPED MORE...GIVEN HIS INTRODUCTION AND ROLE IN RELOADED. IS HE THE "DEVIL"?

-> Morpheus
YES, I CERTAINLY COULD HAVE DONE WITHOUT ANYMORE "RELOADED" SPEECHES, BUT FOR HIM TO BE BUILT UP AS HE WAS IN BOTH THE 1ST AND 2ND MOVIES, IT WAS DISAPPOINTING FOR HIM TO BE REDUCED TO ESSENTIALLY A CO-PILOT...WOULD HAVE LOVED FOR HIM TO EITHER HAVE FOUGHT MERV..OR ONE OF THE SMITHS, DIED IN A BLAZE OF GLORY ...SOMETHING BESIDES HIM TALKING TO JADA FOR MOST OF THE MOVIE (LAME)

Here are a few other questions for you sense you asked...

1.) All of the technology in the world and you mean to tell me that 250,000 freed humans were not smart enough to have semi-clean clothes? Ok...that wasn't all that serious but really 250,000 people and NO ONE goes...Hmm...maybe we should build a few EMP's to keep here in the city in case of an attack?

2.) Everything that has a beginning has and End...How many times was that emphasized? With that said what is the end? The Matrix is still around...so do humans that want to be free get that option...if so how? (it certainly seemed that way) Is there a matrix e-mail that is sent to everyone and says Oh by the way your lives are not real if you want to go to the "real" world just select unsubscribe and your free to go....

3.) All of this Machine technology...the machine city, the Matrix etc, and you mean to tell me that the Machines couldn't fix the sky? Right...

4.)When Morpheus told Neo in M1 that there was this guy that was able to do things inside the Matrix and then began to free other minds including Morpheus.

Now my question is, was this guy the actual "One", or maybe it was Morpheus talking about himself in the third person perhaps ?.

Or perhaps it was just a "plot filler" as the Bro's didn't think they were making a Matrix 2 and 3 so that's why it was written in the first script?

5.)"As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free," Morpheus said in the first film. Well, here we are at the end of Revolutions, and somehow Neo has brokered a truce between the human and machine worlds. But, um, doesn't Zion want to free the remaining humans? And don't the machines still need those humans for an energy source? So tell me how there can be "peace." Even the Matrix itself is still in place at the end.

whew....so sorry to everyone for the length of this post but it was asked for....

So?

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Bluedevil
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posted 11-10-2003 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluedevil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DoogsDC:
Like many others, I'm confused why there has been such a backlash against Matrix: Revolutions. Most say that they feel unsatisfied and confused by the ending.

But; my main response is: How else would it have ended?

Perhaps the predictibility of the plot was necessary to support the major philosophical undertone of the entire film.

I found the conversation between Neo and Smith in the "pit" at the end of their battle to be the most revealing part of the trilogy. In this scene, Smith asks Neo (paraphrase), "Why do you keep fighting?" Smith is unable to understand the reason why Neo won't give up and proposes several reasons, one of which includes a theme that many have felt overplayed throughout the series: love.

I had been disgusted throughout the entire course of the films about the trite concept of "love" ruling humanity; just as Smith had been.

To my delight, Neo replied, "Choice."

There you have it everyone. Among the entire myriad of philosophical and religious questions posed by the legacy of the matrix, the concept of free will and the determinism (causality) debate trumps all other issues.

Think about the entire purpose of the oracle. Think about her limitations.

After the second movie, I felt resigned to believe that we're all products of causality, as the Merovingian argued quite eloquently.

Upon further review of the third film, I realize why it took 7-8 hours of film time and a complex, carefully crafted script was required to argue the case for choice and free will.

I still wonder, "Did Neo really have a choice?" Could Neo have chosen to sit on his ass and do nothing? Could he have decided to reset the matrix in Reloaded?

And I find myself answering no. There's no conceivable way that Neo could have chosen some other option than what he was compelled to do.

And yes, love was in part his motivation. But was that the only reason?

Whenever there is a war, you have a choice to do nothing or a choice to fight. In world war II, we had a choice that we refused to make until utter catastrophe on December 7, 1941. The same thing happened on September 11, 2001.

In your day to day life, you have a choice about whether to keep on fighting or to cave in and allow the wind to toss you around where IT wants you to go.

That's what Neo was fighting against. He was fighting for his right to fight. From the time he took the red pill to the time he was "assimilated" by Agent Smith.


How else could it have ended...
Let me take a shot...

Neo and Trinity realizing they can't make it against the swarm of sentinels that await them at the machine city, plugs into the matrix directly from a machine outpost - this gives neo more speed and power.

With new hidden powers, Neo takes on smith in a gruelling hand to hand combat to the end. Smith learns to adapt to Neo and finally beats him to a pulp.

Smith grabs neo off the ground with one hand and gets ready to deliver the final blow that will finish neo off. But Neo whispers to smith... "good bye" and places his hand on Smith's chest.. and releases some sort of blast (or unseen special power that we don't know about yet...I mean cmon he's the ONE right?!?!) consuming smith as he cries out. The smith clones all fall face first to the ground and melt into black liquid.

Meanwhile, the machines begin their final assualt on the final stronghold of Zion - it's a massacre. Men and women are grinded up into meat - there's no guns or ammo left and everyone gets ready to be squashed by the sentinels and die.

As the machines march closer and closer to them, a black cloak drops to the ground infront of the machines. It is Neo. Everyone's amazed! Even the machines step back. Neo is dressed in his matrix outfit and smiles at the crowd -they can't believe their eyes. There's a huge uproar.

He puts his hand out and 20 sentinels fall dead.
But a sentinel jumps him from behind and a kung fu match ensures as neo tries to dodge the lazers and tentacles while chopping them off.

Neo slams his fist towards the ground and catapults into the air - everyone cheers. He starts to rotate in mid air stiking sentinels everywhere with pure energy from his hands.

The machines retreat and regroup with an even greater number than all three previous waves combine. The final conflict begins as huge waves from all sides attack neo.

Neo now realizes as he grows tired, he cannot win. He falls to his knees to gather his strength as the final divisions of sentinels move in for the kill.

Neo gets up for the last time and beckons them to come to him. And they do, but he does not fight. Neo cries out in a loud voice as he summons all his power and strength - he starts to glow - and the sentinels begin their pounce.

Neo goes supernova and disappears in a blinding storm of light which consumes the remaining sentinels in a great ball of raging white fire - with a global trigger effect EMP that also disable the machine city and the matrix and causes them to collapse.

The Matrix is over and the mourning for neo has begun. This is the Matrix revolution alternate ending.

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MTaillon
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posted 11-10-2003 12:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MTaillon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would just like to add a few things:

Before I go on I'd like to point out that yes I know it's a movie, and yes it was mildly entertaining where it wasn't confusing or contradictory in some way.
Trinity took too long to die. I understand for the sake of drama they had to let her have a little speech, but it took like 5 minutes to finish. With 3 large sharp metal thingies sticking out of her chest and arms, you would think that she would...you know..die.
My biggest beef with the film is the weaponry inside Zion. And no, not just the cheering robots columns. It was the human's weaponry itself that bugged me. Let's put this into perspective:

The people of Zion know who their enemy is, know the strategy of attack, know their enemies weaknesses and flaws.
Zion has had at least an entire century to prepare to be attacked.
Zion has the technological capability to launch hovercraft, clear-panel command and control screens, the massive machinery underneath Zion that filters water, provides power, ect.. long range EMP blasters, and those "Lightning guns".
Zion supposedly has a dozen or so of their hovercraft in the dock during the battle, but they are not visible and don't seem to be a factor in the battle.
Now, with 100 years and advanced technological know-how, full knowledge of what they would be up against, the best that Zion can bring to the table against machines is a few hundred mechwarrior rip offs? Shooting bullets. They must have shot millions of bullets during that fight scene, and I didn't see them being all too effective.
Apparently the major point of those APUs was that you have to yell "ARRRRGHH!" when you shoot the guns. The APUs are probably one of the worst fighting machines you could imagine. They're slow, underpowered, clumsy, and they leave the pilot completely unprotected in the center of the body of the machine. It's amazing that that piece of shit weapon is the best you can come up with to defend yourself with in a hundred+ years of waiting. Hell, the glorified RPG launcher did more than the APUs did. And when the machines decided they wanted to stop letting an APU fire at them and kill them horribly, they could do so at will. At least the girls with the RPG launcher managed to survive an onslaught with guerrilla tactics. Sheesh.
Anyway..those are my main problems with the Matrix Revolutions. The first one was great, the second one was good until you thought about what you just sat through, and the finale was anti-climatic to say the least. I won't even go into why the machines would possibly decide to make peace with humanity when we're hanging on by a fiber on a thread as it is.

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Morphenom
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posted 11-10-2003 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Morphenom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
simple questions:

How is there peace, if the machines still get to grow humans for fuel?

Wasn't morpheus' whole purpose to free humans from enslavement by machines? And even if the "Peace" allows them to leave the matrix by choice, isn't the fundamental issue of creating a human for enslavement still unsolved?

Also, what is the significance of the "last exile?" And how does she have powers to control sun risings?

I wanna love the movie, but I can't get beyond these questions. HELP PLEASE.

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DoogsDC
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posted 11-10-2003 07:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Um... the global EMP idea. I like that a lot.

BTW, why couldn't Neo gain powers in the "real world"? Would that plot twist have ruined the plot of the movie that badly?

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robert
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posted 11-10-2003 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for robert     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wasn't morpheus' whole purpose to free humans from enslavement by machines? And even if the "Peace" allows them to leave the matrix by choice, isn't the fundamental issue of creating a human for enslavement still unsolved?

yes, but some people, like joey pants, probably don't want to be unplugged, they would probably prefer life in the matrix. i'm mean they can have clean clothes there and not have to eat snot.

Also, what is the significance of the "last exile?" And how does she have powers to control sun risings?

she's the "last" exile because he thought he was about to destroy the matrix. there wouldn't be anymore after her.

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myrddin
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posted 11-11-2003 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for myrddin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just saw the movie again (2nd time). And I figured out "The moral of the story." You know, the idea at the end of fairy tales that basically says, "... it just goes to show that..."


the Point, from what I can gather, behind this whole story is:

Live a proactive, not reactive, life.

Meaning:
Make the most of your ability to choose your course in life. Don't let life just happen to you.

Sub-meaning:
If you don't live your life exercising your ability to choose, you are living like you're just a machine, bound to a purpose you have no choice but to fulfill.

Perhaps you were born into a family with a manufacturing business. But you want to become an artist. The choice is yours.
Perhaps you've been raised to expect from life the usual "equation": get married, have kids, raise your family. The choice is yours.
Perhaps you're an addict, and feel there is no way to stop your self-abusing behavior. The choice is yours.

Don't let your life be formula-driven. Think carefully before using the phrase, "I have no choice." Is it really true? Or is it just an excuse, so you can choose the easiest route?


hmm. maybe I should have written some of Morpheus' lines.

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ItEndsTonight
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posted 11-11-2003 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ItEndsTonight     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BlueDevil, I appreciate your insight and lack of malice towards the more negative posts about Revolutions. As well I want to compliment your 3 main theme post and explanation for key points I wasn't aware of before.

I have seen this movie 4 times now and am well aware of many things I hadn't seen before in my past three visits to the theater. Mostly not aware the first two times and a little from the third(I will see it a fith time if I must.) I don't regret my last posts, however, I do regret not analyzing the facts presented to me in the first viewing.

1.)They got the love thing right.
I left the theater the first time and the only thing that stood out was the battle for zion(The one one the docks) and the love between Neo and Trinity. I know that the acting wasn't up to par with the original but we finnaly got a sense of what they were trying to stuff down our throats in Reloaded, and that is that Neo and Trinity really loved each other.

2.) The damn thing calmed it down a nocth, maybe even two.
Reloaded was so fast and so fractured, it was hard to keep up and took multiple viewings to even remember some of the characters, Revolutions slowed down and only threw in maybe one or two new people(i.e sati, trainman, ect...)The story line was simple and straightforward. "We must save the human race." It was only played out in two ways, as it should have been, the real world and the matrix itself. It comes closer to the roots of the original and is easier viewing for casual matrix fans.

Now after seeing the movie further and calming down further(I was nervous just wacthing the previews the first time I saw it)I have noticed a few other triumphs the movie has achieved.

3.) The watereddown speeches are over.
Remember the awful speech in Reloaded? How could you forget...Not so in Revoltutions. The speech and patriotism seems authentic. They went back and showed us why we were wacthing. The Humans are a strong species and will never give up...

4.)We finnaly got to see ZeroOne...
Finnaly we got to see the machine world. When I saw that Neo was talking to a machine in one of the trailers I was so excited. I had been waithing to see this for so long and was absolutly stunned when I saw it. Wasn't it everything you thought it would be??? I was so appreciative of the brothers for that...

5.) We are still talking about it...
No matter how many come out, whether some are good and some are bad we will always be fine if we are still asking why!

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DoogsDC
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posted 11-12-2003 08:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by myrddin:
Just saw the movie again (2nd time). And I figured out "The moral of the story." You know, the idea at the end of fairy tales that basically says, "... it just goes to show that..."


the Point, from what I can gather, behind this whole story is:

Live a proactive, not reactive, life.

Meaning:
Make the most of your ability to choose your course in life. Don't let life just happen to you.

Sub-meaning:
If you don't live your life exercising your ability to choose, you are living like you're just a machine, bound to a purpose you have no choice but to fulfill.

Perhaps you were born into a family with a manufacturing business. But you want to become an artist. The choice is yours.
Perhaps you've been raised to expect from life the usual "equation": get married, have kids, raise your family. The choice is yours.
Perhaps you're an addict, and feel there is no way to stop your self-abusing behavior. The choice is yours.

Don't let your life be formula-driven. Think carefully before using the phrase, "I have no choice." Is it really true? Or is it just an excuse, so you can choose the easiest route?


hmm. maybe I should have written some of Morpheus' lines.


What Myrrdin says is exactly what I believe is the purpose of the entire trilogy. I continually have been bringing up the conversation between Neo and Smith in the final battle to anyone who grumbles about how disappointing the 3rd installment is.

SMITH: Why do you keep on fighting? Is it for love?

NEO: It's choice.

There you have it folks.

It's annoying that most people can't get past the special effects and same old shit you see in every movie that tries to satisfy the masses. Thing is; these movies are about philosophy.

So while I agree with the last poster before me about certain issues, I think Myrrdin got it better.

The main idea is about determinism and free will.

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NeoMorph
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posted 11-14-2003 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMorph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, some of you have gone WAY overboard on this trilogy...hardcore sci-fi fans or no...settle down a bit.

I see this going on like Star Wars - people will start writing stories to answer the "questions" or inquiries people have. There is a mass market out there for the Sci-Fi fans. Just look what "Animatrix" did for the trilogy. You can get all 6 (when finished) Star Wars films and I guarantee that anything and everything in those movies' will not explain all the questions the viewers had.

I think that since there is so many people wanting more of the "Matrix" - please them by making books and DVD's diving further into the idealogy of the Matrix. Heck, I can think of 10 different subjects that could spawn into books like; The First One, The creation of the perfect world, etc.

I have no fear that the trilogy will spawn books, DVD's, etc.

K-

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The Sentinel
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posted 11-16-2003 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Sentinel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Come on people.. They are only movies... Enjoy them for what they are and stop picking them to pieces!!!

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DoogsDC
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posted 11-17-2003 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Go screw yourself sentinel.

The matrix trilogy is more than just a trivial action movie that seeks to entertain.

These movies strive to make you think as well. And that was the purpose of this forum.

If you don't like it, go find some forum on yahoo! or AOL to boast about how good the special effects were.

We don't need you here.

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