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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
darth_ngoh
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posted 05-17-2003 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for darth_ngoh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi sinjin987,

saw your posted conversation between Neo & The Architect... 2 questions for you guys out there...

1) anyone pondered about how the Architect fits into the creation of the Matrix scenario?

2) if The Architect is the father of the Matrix & fairly established that The Oracle is not really the mother of the Matrix... then who might that mother be?

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j.bellone
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posted 05-17-2003 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for j.bellone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm going to post what I believe so far after seeing M2 and reading some of the discussions going on in this thread.


I have two possible endings for M3; one of which being that Neo is infact a program, and that Trinity must thereby accept this when the second Matrix is "unplugged" knowing that Neo will not be following her into the "real world."

The other is that Neo is a human, but he was reprogramed exactly how Agent Smith reprogrammed the Freedom fighter; and throughout his whole conversation with the Arch. he never referred to Neo as the anamoly; but a result of the anamoly. (the result being "The One" ... an upgraded human)

I am swaying more towards the second one. But in fact, there is one matrix (some of you may consider it two... but it's easier to disect if you see it as one).

The lower level of the matrix is the operating level; the application level. Where 99% of all humans are being operated at; they are applications, programs. Because if you haven't noticed, they can be "taken over" by the Agents. Agents are like an Anti-Virus program; Neo is a Virus; so are all of the freed people.

The upper level of the matrix is where all of the freed minds are, thinking they are free, but still being controlled from the outside. They are programs that have run astray from the system, the 1%.

Now normally, a program can't go between the two levels... but there are ways that have been found (because people can "connect" or "broadcast" between the two).

Agent Smith has found a way to infect the programs that are being connected; reformat their minds, etc.

The reason that Neo doesn't use his powers (or isn't able to) is because he didn't KNOW that he's still in the Matrix. When he realized this. I'm still not sure why he's in a coma though; although from the trailer it seems that him and the Agent Smith are connected to eachother in the coma (I don't think the fight scene was in the matrix, maybe outside of the Matrix? Or hell, maybe there's a third matrix, above this one?)

There's still questions and such; there are "two" matrixes (atleast).

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zootiechimp
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posted 05-17-2003 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for zootiechimp     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps Trinity is the "Mother" of the Matrix. Maybe she is also part of the elaborate 2nd Matrix in the "real world" put there to gain trust of Neo and others in Zion.

...maybe this is why the architect dismisses Neo at the suggestion of the "Mother" being the Oracle.

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Kaze
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posted 05-17-2003 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kaze     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
klingsor is correct about Smith and Neo being the main ones in M3. There's a difference now, between the other 5 reloads and this one, Smith is there. What difference could it make? Smith just keeps trying to kill Neo? Or does Smith begin to understand his true purpose, and has his questions answered that he asked in M2. Or, if there are really two Matrix worlds, then all of this wouldn't make any difference at all, and it's all going 'as planned'.

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klingsor
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posted 05-17-2003 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for klingsor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think the "real world" is a second matrix, at least not in the way the first matrix operates. Here's why:

- In the first movie Agent Smith tells Neo that the first Matrix was perfect, a paradise, but that people comitted mass suicides. He said "entire crops were lost" or something like that. That makes me think that they machines have no direct control over someone once they leave the Matrix.

- Note that when someone dies in the Matrix they die in the "real world" as well because their mind "thinks" they should die. The Matrix is sending back signals to the brain that then tells the body how it should feel which causes you to die even though there's nothing wrong with you physically. Dying in the Matrix is very real
and there is no second matrix to catch you. Similarly, if you're out of the Matrix, you're out of the machines' control.

- Reading back over the Neo/Architect conversations a few times here's my take on it. If you have a main program that 99% of humans accepts the 1% presents a problem for you in that it is a growing "error term." As the Matrix grows the 1% becomes a real problem if they remain in the Matrix. Why? Because they would start a revolution of their own within the Matrix, the effects of which would reverberate through the entire Matrix. I would guess that one of the most destructive things within the Matrix would be a war.

Zion is the solution to this problem because it continues to remove the disobedient 1% from the Matrix, thus keeping the rest of the population undisturbed. Once Zion gets too powerful though it's time to eradicate it. But if you eradicate it then who will remove the humans who refuse to accept their fate? That's where Neo comes in: he's the sum of all the rejections of reality that people in the Matrix have expressed and express. His powers stem from a total ability to "see" the Matrix and work within it, hacking other programs and altering the rules of the Matrix completely. His continued presence and his growing power become a growing problem because they interfere with the workings of other programs, even the simplest ones.

The question then is how do you get around all this? You obviously need a Neo to lead a revolution within the Matrix and found Zion so that future errors like him will be taken out of the system. So, interestingly enough, Zion was safe until Neo was ready to go find the architect again. At that point in time safety of Zion was in peril because it was now safe to destroy it -- Neo would start a new one. The only problem is that you need to have a starting node, a starting choice that someone makes to reload the matrix and restart the cycle, and the Architect tries his damn hardest to tilt the balance in favor of a new Zion, giving Neo a choice that no sane and rational man could possibly reject: the salvation of the entire human race. When Neo chooses the right door the Matrix is reloaded. When he chooses the left door...

- Having two matrices makes for a bad story. It destroys the notion of a good story because, as someone pointed out already, you can no longer trust the storyline. it's also not a satisfying answer to just have someone tell you that everything you've seen wasn't really real and that there's a third world out there that's real.

- Reading some of the info. on the 3rd movie, it says that it takes place almost exclusively outside of the Matrix and that it's an "all-out war between humans and machines." My guess will be that the storyline doesn't go the way of the second matrix theory but that it presents an interesting situation Neo put them all in: if the Matrix really did fail as a result of Neo choosing the right door then Zion will be at an advantage if it can survive the sentinel attack because the machines will be without their power source: humans. But if they fail, there goes the human race. (although I really don't buy that -- the machines wouldn't be so dumb not to have a fail-safe plan whereby emryos of humans are preserved to start all over again.


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dday
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posted 05-17-2003 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dday     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
just saw the film for the seond time and i must say i liked it more than the first time.

anyway, my two cents...

i don't think the 'real world' that neo and the zionists live in is a second matrix. That would really defeat the purpose of having 'the one' in the first place. Namely, to discover (or uncover) through human experience, the human element missing from the Architect's program so that 100% of humans accept the matrix (i.e. no-one rejects it).

If the real world is also a matrix then 1% of those in this 'real world' (i.e. the zionists) would also reject it, and so on. I think the architect realises (or has been forced to conclude) that the answer to his problem is not within the matrix - that somehow some element of humanity has been lost in its translation to matrix form (as it was coded by machines) and that is why 1% of humans reject the matrix. Just my opinion.

As to how neo can affect the 'real world' and destroy those sentinels - can't explain that one as yet.

as a side note: my take on the next film is that this is not the story of how humans break free form the matrix and destroy the machines and reclaim the earth and get the girl...

...it's just the story of the 6th incarnation of 'the one' who helps advance the architect is his quest to perfect the matrix. That's why it's called revolutions-'we return to where we started'. It doesn't refer to people rebelling. (maybe someone has mentioned this already).

The problem with this theory is that it's not very hollywood, and hollywood is the real architect here.

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Carl J
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posted 05-17-2003 01:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carl J     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
klingsor:
I just finished reading your comment, and am wondering, if Zion, and everything around it, isn't a second matrix, then how can Neo do what he did? I don't think they're going to making him into some "real life" superhero ...

Also, and i quote ...

quote:
it's also not a satisfying answer to just have someone tell you that everything you've seen wasn't really real

Isn't this what they kept saying in part 1, 'specially in Morph's little speech to Neo? Also the whole spoon thing (and it shows back up in part 2)?

Personally, I'm hoping (and highly doubt they will) that they don't make neo some sort of "super hero". And don't buy the idea of Zion being the "real world", and neo just being able to control the machines by raising his hand. Obviously, it took a lot out of him, brought him past his limits, and hence the coma state.

Just remember though, what they tried to get across in the first movie ...

"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real. What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"

And since the matrix is influenced on a lot of different things and ideas, here's an interesting quote I found:
"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
--Edgar Allen Poe
matrix within a matrix?

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BlackICE
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posted 05-17-2003 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlackICE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dday,

they wouldn't reject it cause they would feel free, the Architect talks a lot about choice. They have the choice to accept the Matrix, or to be "freed" into the "Real World" (which is another matrix). The Architect says something like "As long as they have the choice, even at a unconcious level, as long as its there. (they wont revolt)" So as far as the people of zion know they have achived their goal of being free, therefor they have no reason to not accept "The Real World" as real.

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McAodh
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posted 05-17-2003 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for McAodh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Got this from a friend. But it makes more sense than most.

I am not sure if too many people truly understand what this movie is actually saying, so I will try to explain it for those that don't get what they just saw.

The first thing I recommend is that you try to remove your ego, people all have them - so they believe that the movie must be about
people.

But actually it is about software and mainframe code. The main computer has been caught in a loop cycle for 5 iterations, and it is trying to find a variance that will break this cycle by utilizing a random bit
anomaly piece of software (Neo), to allow it to fully complete its cycle.

It has tried this before, but has always failed and in its attempts. It is trying to factor in all variables of its program to make absolute sure of complete success before it attempts to actually implement the complete procedure, like an good piece of software (debugging iteself - "it is the
why that is important"). Beta software waiting to go gold. The only factor that was not counted on was an anomaly of two programs intersecting and one becoming a self-replicating virus bent on absolute destruction (Smith), and the anomoly (Neo) complementing his program with protectorate software.

This is a brilliant movie, that once you wrap your head around, is really just an ultimate version of Tron with no human watchers (Jeff Bridges), of a computer SuperNoc running through a simulation with all possible factors being worked first, before it initializes the program for real.

If Neo completes his role and meets his ultimate purpose as software, then our
hero allows the computer to see all variances that it will need to contend with, so that it can fully implement the real program on our world.

Matrix - main base operating system.

Zion - secondary operating system for
software that can no longer can function in main sytem - but can be utilized to build new a matrix system.

Neo - Random bit anomaly software for breaking loop cycle utilized by the Oracle and Architect software to be a random variable to upgrade itself upgraded with protectorate code from Smith (Anti-Virus).

Trinity - complement software to aid in Neo's completion of purpose.

Morpheus and crew - collector programs for mainframe to try to enable the end of the loop cycle.

Architect - Mainframe operating system.

Oracle - old Macro Software that has been part of all 5 iterations of the loop and can see all variances.

Oracle's Protector - Mainframe hard code software.

Merovingian - old Neo that did not fully implement objective in beta 5.0.

Merovingian's wife - old trinity code.

Twins, and Merovingian's guards - old base black ice protector code.

Head Counselor in Zion - Advisor for Mainframe that advises Neo along his upgrade to not touch the main bios (engineering) systems.

Key Maker - come on now, to easy, a simple keygen.

Smith - self-replicating virus - now capable of moving to either system infused with anomaly code from Neo.

I truly loved this movie and it is so amazingly deep compared to the first if you know what it really happening. I hope this helps anyone who walked out of the theater like 95% of the crowd I saw it with, scratching their heads thinking, "What the Frell, that was stupid I don't get it."

I am stating that what I am saying is absolute, but if you watch the movie and listen to what they all truly are saying it seems pretty obvious.

Be wary all, your hero is our destruction,

enjoy

[This message has been edited by McAodh (edited 05-17-2003).]

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Vienna
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posted 05-17-2003 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vienna     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a few questions/comments regarding the second Matrix. I've read through pretty much all the posts here, but there are a couple things I still don't get:

1. Who is Merovingian? Is he the French guy? There seems to se some speculation that he is a former Neo and his wife is a former Trinity. If that is true, then it must be true that "The Ones" are not human at all, because now Merovingian is back in the Matrix. So, when do the "Ones" get reinserted back into the Matrix? What happens to them, and where/who are the other 4?

2. I thought that the guy laying on the table in the end was not Smith. Remember the guy that cut his hand and was sneaking up to Neo before Neo left Zion? He gave Neo the spoon. He's also the same guy that whispered to his friend during the council meeting that they should volunteer to go "help" Morpheus' crew. I think that was the guy on the table in the end. If so (if he was not Smith), who was he? It seems like he wanted to hurt/kill Neo in Zion and perhaps he aided in the supposed destruction of Zion - didn't they say in the end that someone messed w/ the machines in Zion - that could have been that guy.

3. Who is the Architect, really? He looks human - how/when/where was he created? If we're supposed to be led to believe he is "god," then has he always existed? If we think of this in religious terms, the Architect keeps creating the Matrix for his own fun, watching what people do when they have free will, yet ultamitely having control over them (much like our "god," for those that believe that), negating free will entirely.

I think that Zion is another Matrix, but I also think that there IS a "real world" out there - we just have not seen it yet. I think in the third one, we'll see that final, real world - maybe "heaven." I also think Neo is "jesus" like and now he will be able to move between matrices. Wouldn't it be cool if in the third one, he was in a "coma" for three days and then "awoke?" I like how the brothers tie these movies into religion - it really makes you think about the implications of the movie, what it means, etc.

I still think there is a lot I am missing, and need to see the movie again and again. Someone should write a book on all this.

~Kristy

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Vienna
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posted 05-17-2003 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vienna     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
One more thing: in the Revolutions trailer, who are the two people in the beginning? I don't think it's Neo - I downloaded it, so it's dark and I can't really tell. Is it the guy on the table?

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Carl J
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posted 05-17-2003 04:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carl J     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Vienna:
quote:
2. I thought that the guy laying on the table in the end was not Smith. Remember the guy that cut his hand and was sneaking up to Neo before Neo left Zion? He gave Neo the spoon. He's also the same guy that whispered to his friend during the council meeting that they should volunteer to go "help" Morpheus' crew. I think that was the guy on the table in the end. If so (if he was not Smith), who was he? It seems like he wanted to hurt/kill Neo in Zion and perhaps he aided in the supposed destruction of Zion - didn't they say in the end that someone messed w/ the machines in Zion - that could have been that guy.

The guy on the table is the same guy that cut his hand, the same guy that was whispering sweet nothings during the meeting, and the lone survivor, when the EPM went off, and everyone else was slaughtered, but if you were paying attention, it wasn't the same guy that gave neo the spoon. That was the kid.
Remeber, Smith can change his appearance.

quote:
Who is Merovingian? Is he the French guy?

There's a posting just below which does a good job of explaining who he is. He is the french guy, and if you remember, his wife told Neo, that Merovingian was once like him (Neo).

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BlackICE
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posted 05-17-2003 05:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlackICE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That feeling of the similarity between Merovingian & the woman in white, and Neo & Trinity, was definatly there... especialy when you think of everything she says and her request to kiss Neo. It is fact that the Merovingian is a program, and it didn't say it but i do believe the woman in white is a program as well. So if they were the last Trinity & Neo, and they are both programs then it leads people to believe Trinity and Neo are both programs. but i think thats going to far i dont think the brothers would let it play our like that. The love story is supposed to be very alive in 2 & 3. So the idea of Neo being program and Trinity human is pretty cool and would fit, and of course Neo and Trinity both being human works. but them both being programs doesn't fit well. I dunno u be the judge. Oh and if Merovingian was the past ONE and given the same decision to save the women in white or to save zion and he chose zion and then became a renegade program blah blah... why is the women in white still alive? wouldn't she have died the way trininty was supposed to?
But my previous question still stands, why is neo even given a choice between the door on the left, and the door on the right? Where does the architecs control fit in to it?

[This message has been edited by BlackICE (edited 05-17-2003).]

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Carl J
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posted 05-17-2003 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carl J     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But if Neo is a program, then why did the french guy say "See, he is still human", when Neo bled. It's not like the French guy didn't know that Neo was "the One".

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BlackICE
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posted 05-17-2003 05:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlackICE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree more with the idea that he said that as a encuragment tool. It's kinda a figure of speech.

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Link
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posted 05-17-2003 06:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Link     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Could it BE??

That when Neo takes the door to the right to save Trinity, he really did not return to the Matrix and hence the real world because he was sent to another program where the "real world" is recreated.

The main motivation behind this thought is that when Neo returns to the "real world" where he is being attacked by the sentinels he feels that something is diferent.

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se7en
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posted 05-17-2003 08:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for se7en     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alrighty, I have read all of these posts, and I must say, I like a lot of the theories. At first, I refused the idea that our Hollywood Hero is in fact a program, created by the Matrix creator. The first Matrix leads us to believe the Matrix is evil and blinding humanity from the truth. The One's goal is to free humanity from this ignorance, for as a now dead man once said, "Ignorance is bliss," but that is the wrong and pessimistic outlook.
The theory that everyone is a program, that this movie is about computer programs, not humans, I refuse to believe. The reason that led Neo to finally realize he is "The One" was true love. Programs cannot comprehend or feel this powerful and ONLY human emotion. The philosophy that is proposed in this trilogy is the contest of Fate vs Choice, whereas Choice is in the favor of human beings. Programs are programmed to do certain things, therefore they do not choose. Choice is the eternal power that human beings were designated. HOWEVER, one may say that THAT is the point; Neo has already chosen to do what he is to do, that he must understand WHY he is doing what is going to do. Was he truly programmed? Should we believe the Oracle? This would rule in favor of the theory that Neo is a program. However, I just don't like that theory, in the sense that our Hollywood Hero is already programmed to do what he is going to do, whereas he is a slave. Neo cannot be our hero if he is a slave to an already decided role. This is why I do not accept this theory, although it may seem logical.
I also like the theory that Neo has in fact a duciplitous nature of Man and Program. This would allow our hero to undergo decisions, but also programmed to undergo a certain task. This also suffices his role as the Christ, or the Savior, where OBVIOUSLY he is a symbol of. Both had a task, of saving mankind, both were sent by their creator, and both were human in the sense of their conception. God's conception with Mary makes Christ human, and Neo's awakening into this supposed "Real World" and being unplugged from the matrix makes him human because all of the others went through a similar process, or they were just regularly born into the "real world." This would also explain the Brothers' decision to name the Merovingian's wife, Persophone, who in Greek Mythology is the wife of Hades, or the God of the Underworld, aka Lucifer, The creator's "nemesis." Also, a tipster of Ain't It Cool News, described Merovingian as the "King of the Virtual World" and "can program himself in any language", which is an allusion to Lucifer's ability to program himself as a "serpent." This theory would then suggest that Neo is the Savior, and that Merovingian is Lucifer, and that they must have their showdown. For Merovingian said, "Mark my words...I have survived your predecessors, and I will survive you." Neo is an enemy to him, undoubtedly. However, how does this explain the much confusing line from Persephone, "He was like you" (looking at neo). I do not like the interpretation that he was a former anomaly, like Neo is. However that would support the theory that Neo is a program, because Merovingian is, by fact, a program, but "gone bad."
However, are we slaves to what klingsor said, that we are concentrating on the wrong characters. I do believe that Smith and Neo are the main characters, and there is something different about them two than the others. They do have a connection, like Smith said. I will get back to this.
Many adopt the "matrix within a matrix" theory, which would explain why he had the power to "feel" the sentinels and stop them. Or could it be the other more specific reasoning that there is actually one matrix, it is just that the "real world" is the Higher Level of the Matrix, and the "virtual world" is the Lower Level of the Matrx. I don't really know, and I am not sure. I just don't like the idea that all that we were led to believe in the first Matrix becomes a lie, or was a dream. However, the "matrix within a matrix" theory also COULD explain why Smith and Neo lay unconscious at the end. They have realized that the "real world" is in fact another matrix, thus forcing them to awake, and go into the real "real world." They can accomplish this, meaning, be set free on their own, because Neo did tell that annoying kid, "You freed yourself." Also, the spoon must be a hint and hold high symbolic value that must explain very important parts of the plot. Of what, I really don't know. Maybe there really is no spoon. There is no difference between what we dream and what is real. Maybe what we dream is real. Maybe the matrix is "real." Like Morpheus said, "How do you define 'real.' If real is what you smell or touch, then it is just the bla bla bla interpretations of your mind" or whatever. To conclude what really happened in the Matrix Reloaded, we have to go back and corelate similarities and differences from the First Matrix.
Okay, I have talked about all the different theories. I will now explain a couple things, that I believe, having seen it 3 different times.
Neo is the THE ONE AND ONLY ONE. I'll get back to this. He is human, or at least has many human characteristics which govern his though process. Everyone points out that he is "only human." Everybody in opposition to him is a program. Except for the Oracle, but were her prophesies a lie? I repeat what Morpheus said in the First Matrix: "Do not interpret it as wrong or right, but as a guide...She told you exactly what you needed to hear." I really don't know about The Oracle and The Architect. Something is fishy about them, but they are very similar in what they tell Neo. What may seem as lies, are actually serving a purpose. They are guiding Neo along the path, to what he must accomplish. I do believe he will save Humanity from the Machines, either to wipe the Machines out, or make peace and live interconnectedly with interdependence on each other, which may thrive the successes of each party's purpose. (He is our hero, our human hero, that will accomplish his goal. We are still in Hollywood guys.) Going back to The Oracle and The Architect, they told lies, but don't consider them as lies. In the First Matrix, The Oracle told Neo that he would be forced with a choice (again, a human situation) and that Morpheus would have to die. He reversed that situation, and they both live. In the Matrix Reloaded, she tells Neo that he would be forced with a choice, and that Trinity is going to die. He reverses that and they both live. The Architect said, ...an emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth...she is going to die, and THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP IT." Nothing you can do to stop it means no matter what door he chose, Trinity would die. However, he reverses that, and they live. The Oracle and The Architect are the Mother and the Father of the Matrix, respectively. They, however, they lie to him, but for the purpose of guiding him. So is The Oracle bad or evil, or against Neo? No. If it weren't for the Oracle and her prophesy, then Morpheus would have never found Neo, because he wouldn't have had the desire to do so. "Morpheus did what he did because he believed in something." It is characteristic that all of the actions that take place in these movies, are first led by beliefs. My point is that, because of The Oracle, Morpheus found Neo, and Neo IS NEEDED, or else it would shatter the point of the First Matrix, and I doubt that the Brothers would do that. The question is, is The Architect good, or in favor in Neo. I would say no, but you never know... Keep your minds open. "Free your mind." Okay, I get to the core and the point of the plot. Neo vs Smith. Due to the Reloaded, and the scenes from the Revolutions, they are the two main characters. Protagonist vs Antagonist. Hero vs Nemesis. They are both unconscious at the end. They are both somewhere else. The real "real world?" I don't know. Is it Anti-Virus vs Virus? Smith replicates himself as if he is a virus. They both have realized something, they both have some new knowledge, I believe. How do I explain Neo's all of a sudden "feel" for the sentinels, and his power to stop them? I don't know. Can we accept the fact that maybe Neo has upgraded his knowledge, or his mind as evolved? Smith has evolved, through replication and the ability to control the minds of a man in the "real world." I just don't like the idea of another matrix. Kind of defeats the purpose of the first movie. We were all led in a lie? I refuse to believe it. I think we worry too much about that though. We'll see what happens.
As far as the Machine vs Man goes, the plot was very straightforward. Zion was NOT destroyed, only the counter-attack was "slaughtered." Smith must have triggered the EMP to result in this slaughter. In 24 hours, there is going to be a War. Okay, The Architect's conversation with Neo. Neo is not another ONE. He is THE ONE. The previous 5 were other anomalies. What is different, is that he has anomalies within his persona, meaning he is different from the previous 5. What is also different is that Neo chooses the other door. He was not governed by his attachment to humanity on a general level, but on a specific attachment of LOVE to Trinity. If he were to choose the right door, like the others, then Zion would be still be destroyed, but he would be able to choose 16 women and 7 men (or whatever it was) to start a new Zion, like the OTHERS. Morpheus believes that civilization in the real world has been going on for about 100 years. This is wrong, it is closer to about 600 years or so. There have been 5 previous civilizations, and nobody knew that because as Neo said, "nobody knows." And how would they know? Zion was completely rebuilt 5 different times, each civilization not knowing of the others, each believing their civilization is the only one, and that it has lasted about 100 years, and that The One set them free, and the prophesy is set that "The One" will come back and end the war. I am not sure about all of that, I just think that is the way it is. Since Neo chose the left door, humanity will be destroyed like The Architect said. This is the opposite of what the others chose. They all chose the logical choice, Save Humanity. However, it would not save humanity, only preserve Zion for another 100 years or so, until it would be destroyed again, thus prolonging and continuing the cycle.
As far as history goes: As The architect said, The first matrix was created perfectly, but was a disaster because of the imperfections of man. So they rebuilt it upon man's history, but again resulted in frustration. So the architect chooses an intuitive program with a lesser mind farther away from the parameters of perfection, The oracle. She builds the Matrix as we know it, which may explain why she knows what she knows.
So the architect tells Neo that Zion will be destroyed, and they are efficient at it. He also says Trinity WILL die. Neo has reversed the latter one, and i believe he will prove the Architect wrong by acting as the ONE and saving the human civilization; This I hope to see in Revolutions. He is the ONE, because he is an anomaly different from his predecessors. However, you would think the Architect would know, because of his mind capacity, (not really having a mind) i mean his amount of artificial intelligence, that Neo could reverse Trinity's death, or he was proved wrong. The point still remains: BECAUSE neo chose the left door, Zion will not be rebuilt, the Matrix will not be reloaded, but he will either face human extinction like the architect said, or he will prevail and save humanity. That is the future. The war will be over in 24 hours. This is a fact that everyone knows. In who's favor, we will have to wait and see. The machines are in control, it seems, and Revolution as we have learned by definition, denotes and foreshadows a revolutionary event, Man overcoming and gaining control of and over Machine. Smith's relation to all of this and the war, we will have to see. I believe his single and sole purpose is to kill Neo, as I read in an interview by the actor that plays him. The Revolutions Teaser shows and suggests their final showdown. BOOYEAH, it's gonna be a good one.
Alrighty. Well, I recapped over the possible theories, and told you mine. I am a fan of Man, and their qualities of hope, passion, and free will that allows for their superhuman ablilities. As we saw, Neo was able to fly as fast as he did at the end because of his immense feeling of love for trinity. He is human. He is governed by human qualities and characteristics. Let me know what you guys think.
-Austin

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Xcubetion
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posted 05-17-2003 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xcubetion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by McAodh:
Got this from a friend. But it makes more sense than most.

I am not sure if too many people truly understand what this movie is actually saying, so I will try to explain it for those that don't get what they just saw.

The first thing I recommend is that you try to remove your ego, people all have them - so they believe that the movie must be about
people.

But actually it is about software and mainframe code. The main computer has been caught in a loop cycle for 5 iterations, and it is trying to find a variance that will break this cycle by utilizing a random bit
anomaly piece of software (Neo), to allow it to fully complete its cycle.

It has tried this before, but has always failed and in its attempts. It is trying to factor in all variables of its program to make absolute sure of complete success before it attempts to actually implement the complete procedure, like an good piece of software (debugging iteself - "it is the
why that is important"). Beta software waiting to go gold. The only factor that was not counted on was an anomaly of two programs intersecting and one becoming a self-replicating virus bent on absolute destruction (Smith), and the anomoly (Neo) complementing his program with protectorate software.

This is a brilliant movie, that once you wrap your head around, is really just an ultimate version of Tron with no human watchers (Jeff Bridges), of a computer SuperNoc running through a simulation with all possible factors being worked first, before it initializes the program for real.

If Neo completes his role and meets his ultimate purpose as software, then our
hero allows the computer to see all variances that it will need to contend with, so that it can fully implement the real program on our world.

Matrix - main base operating system.

Zion - secondary operating system for
software that can no longer can function in main sytem - but can be utilized to build new a matrix system.

Neo - Random bit anomaly software for breaking loop cycle utilized by the Oracle and Architect software to be a random variable to upgrade itself upgraded with protectorate code from Smith (Anti-Virus).

Trinity - complement software to aid in Neo's completion of purpose.

Morpheus and crew - collector programs for mainframe to try to enable the end of the loop cycle.

Architect - Mainframe operating system.

Oracle - old Macro Software that has been part of all 5 iterations of the loop and can see all variances.

Oracle's Protector - Mainframe hard code software.

Merovingian - old Neo that did not fully implement objective in beta 5.0.

Merovingian's wife - old trinity code.

Twins, and Merovingian's guards - old base black ice protector code.

Head Counselor in Zion - Advisor for Mainframe that advises Neo along his upgrade to not touch the main bios (engineering) systems.

Key Maker - come on now, to easy, a simple keygen.

Smith - self-replicating virus - now capable of moving to either system infused with anomaly code from Neo.

I truly loved this movie and it is so amazingly deep compared to the first if you know what it really happening. I hope this helps anyone who walked out of the theater like 95% of the crowd I saw it with, scratching their heads thinking, "What the Frell, that was stupid I don't get it."

I am stating that what I am saying is absolute, but if you watch the movie and listen to what they all truly are saying it seems pretty obvious.

Be wary all, your hero is our destruction,

enjoy

[This message has been edited by McAodh (edited 05-17-2003).]


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So your saying everything is a program????

So there is nothing to save?

Even if everything,like Zion is a another program i sometimes think how a film would turn out.

Remember this is a film, it must come to an end, it must come to a happy ending.

If no one is truly free that means machines still have the control to everything.. the real world would be like the first? out of that jelly crap for the first time all weak and everything..it would be like another movie.. theres no time for this in REVOLUTION


REMEMBER - this is a trilogy, there is NO CONCLUSION..as stated on the end of the movie (to be concluded), so dont just jump into one just yet. This is why everyone is seeking for answers, when there is no TRUE conclusion as some if looking to already trying to find.

Matrix Reloaded only covered some areas, but the answers like Neo destroying the robot in the 'real world'..saving trinity in the matrix.. what happened on the TV room will be given a better explanation on the third film this year.

Like a classic Trilogy.. a good amount of the puzzle pieces was put down..but the final piece that truly shows that picture in the puzzle (the final pieces) will be placed on the third and last movie.

Having a 4th matrix movie, not following their trilogy series will piss people off, so i doubt it. They can only go star wars on us with this film after the third.

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Dysfunktional
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posted 05-17-2003 09:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dysfunktional     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did anyone else ever think that maybe Neo doesn't have any "super" powers in the zion world. Maybe the EMP that killed the ships actually killed those sentinels too.

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klingsor
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posted 05-17-2003 09:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for klingsor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's one question that hasn't been asked yet but is important: Why is Agent Smith's human incarnation in a coma?

The answer to this question presumably says a lot about why Neo is in a coma and also likely says a lot about how the two are related. Personally, I think it has something to do with man's inherent power to set of an EMP mentally, it's just a very draining process. That would explain how the EMP was set-off prematurely that caused everyone in the contact group to die and would also explain how Neo stopped the sentinels. How do they both have this power -- I imagine it has something to do with them interacting with each other and transferring abilities but there really isn't enoug evidence to know one way or another.

The Merovingian, the Architect, the Oracle.... they're just a novel addition to the story. It's quite a creative concept to concieve of programs with feelings and a purpose and to think of machines as having many difficulties present in humans as well, such as contrasting viewpoints on what to do. The Oracle isn't too thrilled with what the Matrix is becoming, the Merovingian was an original program designated with doing many things, among them creating languages. He may have once been a gentle and creative being but now he's just a pervert who sends orgasm cakes to other ladies. No wonder Persephone was sickened by him and she wanted to feel what it's like to be kissed by a real man, powerful yet still uncorrupted. Plus, it makes for a good scene with Trinity watching and having to endure.

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klingsor
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posted 05-17-2003 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for klingsor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Found this, kinda interesting:
---------
Monica Belluci has been talking about The Matrix Reloaded "I'll tell you, when you're in front of the camera, for a small budget movie or a big budget movie, there's no difference. When you're in front of the camera, I think an actor works with their soul and their thought and the language comes. She (Persephone) was the daughter of Zeus and she was kidnapped by the king of the underworld, in Hades and she was allowed to come back into the living world. It says a lot about my character, Persephone, but I can't tell you [more] about it. She's very mysterious and sensual, more glamour, but dangerous, very dangerous.My action scenes are not like jumping on the wall, it's completely different kind of stuff. You'll see it in the movie."

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NuclearFart
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posted 05-17-2003 10:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NuclearFart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"how does this explain the much confusing line from Persephone, "He was like you" (looking at neo)."

Maybe it's another bible parrallel, where Merovingion is the literal "fallen angel"? I know that Neo is supposed to be jesus (ie. he is not an angel), but many would equate jesus and angels on the same level. Thus the statement that "he was like you" makes sense in that Merovingion was very much like Neo until he fell from grace.

To Xcubition - There are some interesting points in there, but I don't know why one must explicitly believe that the movie is about programming. The matrix being about human nature or about computer language is NOT mutually exclusive. I think that the movie is making a statement about human nature using the whole computer language thing as a vehicle, and comparison at the same time.

You are probably very right about many of your comparisons, but was the matrix not created by Man himself? In the animatrix story of the 2nd renaissance, it even states that the computers where designed by man in the perfect image of himself. Should the humans be viewed as programs written by the computer AI to serve its processing needs (as you suggest), or rather should the computer AI be viewed as writting itself around the humans? Whom is the horse, and whom is the cart being pulled by the horse?

I would tend to go with the latter in that the humans (Neo, Trinity, Morpheus and the zionites) are real free thinking entities (as judged by their ability to make choice), while the oracle, twins, architect (...etc) are programs written around man.

Further reason as to why I think this movie IS about mankind, is that in actual reality the Wachowski Brothers are quite avid fans of human philosophy , even going in so far as to cast one of their favorite philosophers, Cornel West (a world reknown philosophy professor from princeton ), in the movie (He is councillor West). Given this background, I sincerely doubt that the brothers would go through such production lengths only to make a movie that was entirely about computer programing.

[This message has been edited by NuclearFart (edited 05-17-2003).]

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aidfarh
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posted 05-17-2003 11:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aidfarh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi, I've read all the previous posting on this forum. And regarding how Neo was able to stop the Sentinels at the end of the movie. Maybe at the end, Neo was able to contact the machines wirelessly. I've never seen anyone suggest this before, is it not possible? Maybe, Neo's mental power had grown so strong that he was able give out electromagnetic signals so strong, via the nodes on his body. Remember, we are talking about machines here, so wireless communication is entirely possible. And maybe, at the end, Smith, who was in Bane's body, also figured out how wirelessly connect to the machines, an now, at the end, both Smith-Bane and Neo, who appears in a coma, are actually plugged in wirelessly to the Matrix, or maybe another subsystem within the machine network, and next they're going to fight it out, and when Neo wins, he's going to drive Smith out of Bane's body.

Anybody have any comment on the above theory?

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Elite_Agent
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posted 05-18-2003 12:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Elite_Agent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know this may sound way out, but it's an idea. I think the way how Neo was able to first sense then destroy the machines at the end was that The real world was inside another matrix system and Neo is connected to it. I believe That 2 Alternate Matrixes were created. One was made by the original Architect, and the other by the Oracle, which explains the different encryption: eg. the Oracle's bodyguard. And which is why Agent smith was able to survive inside the "real world" because he is no longer apart of the original Matrix's rules.

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Drevi1
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posted 05-18-2003 01:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Drevi1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think its pretty clear how Neo is able to stop the machines at the end of the movie. When Smith confronts Neo right before Neo beats the crap out of the many Smiths in the early part of the movie, Smith explains their relationship and how he came to be. In this explanation Smith in one way or another is saying that when Neo entered him and destroy him a part of him was imprinted in him as was part of Smith imprinted in Neo. So Neo most likely wouldn't understand that he has much the same abilitys as Smith does. Smith can enter someone who has hacked and into the matrix and exit the matrix to the real world. So Neo, when out of the matrix can disable and probably control/assimilate the machines outside the matrix.

Well that is my take, and it seems pretty obvious to me, especially with the way the movie ended that this is why Neo could destroy the machines outside the matrix. It doesn't mean he can transcend his powers in the matrix outside of it, but more or less as you wrote can transmit a wireless signal that can affect the machines.

Any other takes?

[This message has been edited by Drevi1 (edited 05-18-2003).]

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BlackICE
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posted 05-18-2003 02:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlackICE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think we pretty much established from direct quotes from the Architect, that there are 2 matrix's one for the 99% and the other for the 1% that dont accept the first. No offence to these other theories of smith germs makin him control robots or after affect EMP blasts. I just don't want our smarter guys that figured out half this crap to think were not listening. So its safe to accept the 2 matrix theory for it would apear to be almost fact, and also makes sense from a movie makers stand point... as it is a great twist. Now lets move forward...

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se7en
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posted 05-18-2003 03:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for se7en     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From The Architect himself referring to the 1%, "Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster." However, they are not unchecked, they are checked. There is not an escalating probability of disaster, because they are being watched by the sentinels. The sentinels wipe them out before they are such a force that could pose a threat. I saw matrix reloaded again tonight, and I am really starting to believe this 2 matrices/Upper and Lower levels of the Matrix. I saw the first matrix again also tonight, and it has absolutely no evidence of another matrix. Not that it needs any, it just seems that the first movie is kind of a dream, that what everyone believed, is a lie. That is why I found this dual matrix theory hard to believe.
However, there are strong evidences that may prove the existence of the dual matrix theory. As Neo said, "The prophecy was a lie. It was another system of control." And the head Councilman, in his conversation with Neo that night, made the "point" that we are still in interdependence with the machines. The point that The Architect makes also suggests dual matrices, that Zion is completely under control and under watch. It gets wiped out when needed. There must be a better world. At least I and, I am sure Neo hopes also. However, as the Architect said, Hope is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of my greatest strength and my greatest weakness. Go Neo!
I think my question remains: Is the Oracle on Neo's side? Is there any way the Architect is good? Is the final showdown between Neo and Smith, or Neo and Merovingian? Merovingian IS the king of the Virtual World. We shall see.

[This message has been edited by se7en (edited 05-18-2003).]

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klingsor
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posted 05-18-2003 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for klingsor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A lot of the support for the 2-matrix theory comes from people looking at all the events that happened and not being able to piece them together and explain them in any other way aside from saying: "there's a second matrix in the works." Saying that allows you to sidestep the following questions:

- Why are Neo and Bane (Smith) in a coma?
- How did Neo stop the sentinels?
- How can Agent Smith get out of the matrix and inhabit the body of a person?
- How does the Architect solve the problem of the 1% who refuse to accept the matrix?

But there are other explanations for this as well and many have offered them below. You have to realize that the idea of a second matrix is extremely uncreative because it starts a loop that is both stale and unrewarding in film-making. It's the equivalent of having a character wake up from a dream only to find out he's in another dream etc... the story keeps going w/o a real point. If there is a second matrix, how would you know there's not a third, a fourth, a fifth.....

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Drevi1
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posted 05-18-2003 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Drevi1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I completely agree with the last post. To think there is another matrix is really uncreative is probably the creation of the 99% of real humans who are too stupid to see what is right in front of them. I'm sure the directors know this and can't overstep their bounds anymore than they already have otherwise it'll destroy the minds of all the fanboys on here who think way too much into things that aren't even there.

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ged_is
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posted 05-18-2003 01:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ged_is     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just read se7en's take on the matrix revolutions and found that his version is the most plausible.

Here's my take on:

Merovingian
He was a powerful renegade program that hid in the Matrix. He was good in the beginning but corrupted. Hence the comparison to Neo (who is good) by Persephone. He also needed the keymaker for nefarious reasons (the keymaker allows him access to all places).

The Mainframe
The significance of the door in the unreachable floor within the glass building. It must be reached at a specific time. The power plant must be destroyed by Niobe. The power grid must be destroyed.
The building is just like a server that has a backdoor programmed by its programmer. However, this backdoor is programmed specifically for Neo, "The Anomaly". Everything that has happened was supposed to happen. Neo being told about the door, Niobe detonating the powerplan. The powergrid was not being shut down successfully. Trinity had to go in. Neo managed to get into the mainframe to talk to the architect. Trinity will die.
However, Trinity did not die hence there is still choice and hope for humanity.

Smith and Neo.
Smith was a program. However, when Neo killed him in the first matrix, Neo's imprint was left in him and thus he was free from the contraints of the matrix and was able to get into the real world via the telephone call (he is now in the mind of a real person). His singular purpose is to destroy mankind.
Neo was similarly imprinted with Smith's characteristic and is now able to exert control over the machines. Neo's purpose is to save mankind.


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The_Architect
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posted 05-18-2003 02:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The_Architect     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone know or have the word-for-word dialogue exchanged between Neo and The Architect? If not, does anyone know where I could find it? I'd like to read it to better understand all of it. I will also be going to see the movie again soon.

Thanks.

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UnseenOperation
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posted 05-18-2003 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for UnseenOperation     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The dialog between Neo and the Architech are on page 1 of this post. Here are my thoughts on why the "real world" can't be another matrix.

#1. The Architect says that 99.9 of the people accept the Matrix. The idea that the real world is another Matrix made to hold the .1 percent that done accept the Matrix makes sense except for the fact that the second Matrix would not be perfect. There would still be a .1 percent of the the people in Zion, the second Matrix which would not accept it. Therefore, if you have more than one thousand people in Zion you are running a HUGE risk of them finding out that the "real world" is actually fake and they would need to create another Matrix to contain those people. And when you have more than 1000 people in the 3rd Matrix you'll need to create a fourth. Therefore the logical solution for the architect would be to continually build Matrices so that no matter how many times a person woke up there would be hundreds of other Matrices that were there to contain them and more being built on top of that to ensure they would never escape.

#2. Way too many people I've talked to and heard from, both on this board and at my school, are going for the 2 Matrices theory. That probably means that the 2 Matrices theory is what the W brothers wanted us to believe so that they could throw another curve ball later on.

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se7en
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posted 05-18-2003 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for se7en     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ged_is, I think that is a very important observation about Smith and Neo. I like that. Smith did mention that something was imprinted on him, and something imprinted on Neo. Smith was able to control the mind of a man, and Neo can control the minds of the sentinels (or in other words, stop them, because that is what CONTROL is) I think that the fact that Neo can STOP or CONTROL the sentinels at the end could serve as EVIDENCE that it isn't a matrix. From what morpheus said in the first Matrix: "What is the Matrix? Control." The fact that he could stop the sentinels at the end is a sign of control, and foreshadow's Neo's ablitiy to control the machines, thus his ability to endure the war with a revolution. Many argue that the reason the "real world" is another matrix is because it was another system of control, in the sense that the Machines control Zion, "they are efficent at destroying it." However, since Neo is now able to feel the sentinels, that control is being flipped. There is our revolution. That is the point of his all of a sudden ability to feel the sentinels, I beleive. This would support my theory that the real world is not another matrix. What is the Matrix? Control. Neo starting to realize he can CONTROL the machines.
So my long explanation of revelations had me NOT believe in the dual matrix theory, but then I flipped it and said I started to believe it. I think I may switch again. I don't believe the Brothers would defeat the purpose of the first Matrix. They spent so much time explaining the "real world," that is MUST hold huge value in the trilogy. It MUST be the real world, or I'd be dissappointed. OR Maybe there is no real world, like there is no spoon? Does the spoon hold more symbolic value than we think or are we just looking too deeply into this?

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Tocco
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posted 05-18-2003 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tocco     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, one clever fan posted the entire conversation b/t Neo and Architect early in this topic, check the #3 link. I advise everyone take a very close look at this conversation in its entirety; there are many clues here concerning whether Neo is human or program, and of course the closely related question: is the real world merely a secondary level of the matrix, designed to control the 1%? I am still working on this question; I am not ready to outline my thoughts; I do not think it is as obvious as some people are arguing.

I would first appreciate a definitive description of what consequences lay behind each door, and what has happened because of Neo's decision. From the conversation with the Architect, I believe the following section is most relevant to the doors:

Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you cary, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals--16 females, 7 male--to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo: You won't let it happen. You can't. You need human beings to survive.

Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility of the death of every human being on this world.
It is interesting reading your reactions. Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication--a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific--vis a vie..love.

Neo: Trinity.

Architect: Appropos, she entered the matrix to save your life, at the cost of her own.

Neo: No...

Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end.
There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the Source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the matrix, to her and to the end of your Species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you are going to do, don't we? Already, I can see the chain-reaction--the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason--an emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth...she is going to die, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

(Neo starts walking towards the door on his left)

Architect: Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

Architect: We won't.

Neo exits out of the left door.

O.K. Here is my understanding. Each of Neo's predecessors has chosen the door on the right. This door contains the Source and the salvation of Zion. This end does symantically comply with the Oracles instructions, that it would prevent the fall of Zion, because the one will then have 23 persons to rebuild Zion, after it has been destroyed. They chose this door because they were attached to the human race in a general way, and could not allow it to die out. Neo's predecessors, in choosing this door, operated within the Arhitect's control loop, destroying and rebuilding Zion, without ever destroying the matrix.

Neo chooses the door on his left. Neo chooses this door because he has experienced a very specific love for Trinity; He cannot live w/out her; he must save her; He is confident and hopeful in his ability to do so. Neo fails to comply with the process. It seems to me that Neo causes a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix. The destruction of all human battery bubbles will now weaken the machines horribly, to "levels of survival [they] are prepared to accept," but of course all of those battery humans are now dead. In 24 hours, the sentinnels will reach Zion, and if the Architect's threat plays out, the entire human race will die, except for those onboard Captain Niobe's ship. This is my understanding of the doors. Here are questions:

1) The door on the left leads to the matrix and Trinity, but also to the cataclysmic system crash. Is there a lag in the crash of the matrix? Neo soars out of the server/building absurdly fast. We understand the "tornado" effect behind him on the city streets to be caused by his fantastic power. However, when he immediately exits the door and starts flying, there is a fiery explosion behind him. Is this the cataclysm/system failure/destruction of matrix? If so, how does Neo have time to chill w/ Trinity on the rooftop? Is it possible that "killing everyone connected to the Matrix" refers only to the pink bubble humans, and not the pirate broadcasting ships, i.e. the Neb? Could this cataclysm be connected to the change Neo feels at the very end, "Something's different..." ? or his ability to stop the sentinels? Have I misunderstood cataclysmic system crash, in other words does it not necessarily mean destruction of the matrix, but only the death of those connected to it?

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soulman
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posted 05-18-2003 04:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for soulman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some food for thought:

After reading a lot of posts here after seeing the movie, it helped put a lot in perspective, and allowed me to pay better attention to detail when I watched the movie the second time around. A few things came to mind.

1) Some people here have suggested Neo is a program, and NOT human. Although the idea Neo is human I think was a major plot of the movie shown at various times.
a. In the beginning of the movie, one of the Agents says "Only Human". The agent also states something along the lines of "What should we do with the anamoly?", yet the Architect says Neo is the RESULT of an anomoly (contradiction).
b. Merovingian states "Only a man". After Neo's hand is cut by the sword. Also note the slice on his hand was an exact duplicate of Smith-Banes' hand that he cut himself, prior to shaking hands w/ Neo. What does this mean ?
c. The counsler in Zion when having the discussion with Neo says something along the lines of "It's good you can't sleep, shows your still human!".

Was anything changed in the Matrix in Reloaded ? i.e. Did we the viewers have any dejavu ?

I have a theory for the end, many people don't like the idea of TWO matrixes. Perhaps when he returned to the ship, he didn't really return to the ship, but the end was still taking place in the ONE matrix. Neo says "Something is different this time, I can feel the machines.".

People have also suggested Merovingian is a previous version of Neo. I don't think this makes any sense because Merovingian states "I have survived your predecessors, I'll survive you too.". That statement I think also defuncts the idea that the Matrix is "reset, or reloaded my Neo, and EVERYTHING starts all over again.". If that was the case then Merovingian would also be "reformatted", and wouldn't be aware that he has survived "predeccessors".

For some reason the statement by the Oracles bodyguard of "You can't truley know someone until you fight them." sticks out to me. I suspect this will have some deep meaning in the sequel. Or perhaps this even explains part of the end when Neo stops the sentinel. Isn't the sentinel "the bad guy" at that point?? How can Neo really know the machine, until he fights it?

It was also suggested that they didn't actually show Neo walk through a door, but at the same time all of his available choices (the TV Neo's), all look at the same door. Picking the other door I guess was NOT a choice.

Agent Smith attempts to replicate himself itno Morpheus in the hallway. What would happen to the "real" morpheus on the ship, if this actually had occured?

and.... Trinity is the mother of the matrix. "Designed to learn human emotion." It's obviously not the oracle, and no one else is significant enough. Afterall Trinity "disobeyed" THE ONE, when she entered the matrix to help him. She broke her promise. Neo trusted her word, and she broke that trust. Something that good is not meant to last.

That's it for now, just some ideas to toss around, I plan on seeing it again soon !

-Soulman

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