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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
DoogsDC
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posted 05-19-2003 12:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm. I thought about the matrix within a matrix theory myself the second time I saw the movie. There seem to be 2 camps developing on the forum with regard to this issue. One states that the "average joe"/Hollywood cliche requires exactly what you would expect in the third film to satisfy the audience. My problem with this position is as elaborate as the movie's plot. First consider this: the Wachowski brothers have stated before, if you look hard enough on the net, that they created an intellectual movie and were actually worried whether people would like it or not. In fact, they say if people didn't like the first one, because it wasn't a package of "McDonald's Crap" they would need to reevaluate their profession. So yes, they like to make money, but they like to make a point with their work. So in response to the "Average Joe" theory, I think you're highly underestimating the Wachowskis. Secondly, you REALLY must check out Baudrillard's "Simulacra and Simulation." This book appears on the first film as the book containing the disk for the white rabbit people to come take him to trinity. This book is probably to a large extent what the movie is based on. The whole point of the book is that the difference between reality and simulation in our modern world is so illusory that the simulation can be considered as real. At the same time, reality is negated by the fact that a simulation duplicates it. Thus, wouldn't the point of the trilogy be to cause us to reevaluate what we consider to be reality? Read the book or get it from the library. Thirdly, based on the precedent of the second one, which dives so deep into the rabbit hole that you need a freshman level philosophy class to understand it, it seems highly plausible to assume that the "real world" is in fact, a simulation. After all, there were 5 matrices already... That was a GIGANTIC curve ball. Compound that with the fact that Neo knows more now than most of the programs in the matrix that think they know what is going on. (Oracle asks Neo what happens when he enters the door of light)

IN SUM, the point is this: If they are trying to make a point, which I think they are, there WILL be SOME huge curveball in Revolutions. The matrix inside a matrix is a doozy. (I saw "Virtual Nightmare" on the sci-fi channel and the same type of thing happens.

By the way, I hope this movie is not about love because I think I'll have to puke and burn all of my matrix paraphernalia if that is the case

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no. 47
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posted 05-19-2003 02:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hey guys I got a few questions I want to ask:

1) Did the other five predecessors from the matrix chose the door that leads to the salvation of Zion or were the images from
the tv screens when Neo chose to walk toward the door that leads back to the matrix (and back to the loving arms of trinity =))were illusions of misdirection for the viewers?(when neo lifted his head up, it wasn’t synchronized)…I see the logic, if the other five chose the salvation of Zion and thus “recycling” the sequences of events.

2) If the matrix is older than neo thinks, why is it each of the predecessor look alike? If Zion has fallen five time already then that means that the setting was actually done at least a thousand years after the war between man and machine during the time they were still coexisting at the earth’s surface…I guess the machines have the ability to clone humans?…

3) When the architect mentions that the destruction of the Zion will result in the extinction of the whole human race because of a catastrophic chain reaction that will lead in the severing of connections of people who are still wired in the matrix, how’s that? I thought that there aren’t any broadcasting in Zion?

4) If the salvation of Zion is so important for the symbiotic nature of the machine, then why did the architect have to give neo and the other five predecessors a choice?

5) If the sequences of events that lead Neo to the Architect was just another system of control then does it really matter which door he chooses?…the t.v. screen images are confusing.

6) Neo and the other predecessors are apart of the 1% that rejected the oracle/human-psyche-program (she told him that he isn’t the one) then it would make more sense to choose the door that’ll lead back to the matrix ?

7) The Oracles says, “Every story you’ve heard about vampires, werewolves or aliens is the system assimilating some programs that’s doing something it’s not suppose to do” Does that mean some programs are goofing around in the system or that the programs that chose exile over deletion are being assimilated into the matrix and it just so happen that they’re not in human form yet or chooses not to be?

8) If it’s Matrix3 is a revolution, then it would be a revolution of machine against machine?…and I thought the oracle was just another program for a system of control?…maybe agent smith?…who knows really…

[This message has been edited by no. 47 (edited 05-19-2003).]

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no. 47
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posted 05-19-2003 02:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by larkface123:
I was actually looking at Persophone's, thx.

She waasn't wearing any panties...hehehe

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koosh
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posted 05-19-2003 03:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for koosh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lilburk4:
Anybody know what song played during the first agent fight ("upgrades!")

new here, reading everyones reply, interesting opinions going all round... the song I think is a variant of Furious Angles by Rob D. In Matrix 1 you also get the song, it was played when u see the Lady in Red when Morphues was showing Neo around in the contruct

------------------
-:: koosh ::-

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larsen
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posted 05-19-2003 05:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for larsen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First, I think the multimatrix theory is not possible. If there were a second matrix, audiences would wonder if there is a third and forth one which would turn the movie into a sick joke.
second, I favor the idea that Neo is a program. Like the programs we use in our computer, they don't stand alone. instead, they need an operating system to work and the matrix provides the OS so when neo goes back to the real world, he is still wirelessly connected to the matrix. So are the real-world-agent-Smith and sentinels. IN the end, neo realized this fact and used matrix to shut down the sentinels.
If anyone doesn't agree, would you please tell me why they wanna go to the matrix to defend the real world attack. I really want to know. Thanks.

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no. 47
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posted 05-19-2003 07:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i think the idea of having 2 matrices isn't far fetched...If the other 5 predecessors were all keanu at one point, then time really wouldn't be relevant (just as what the oracle said during the meeting at the park)…what’s the probability of them looking a like five times in a row unless that is, they were all him…maybe he’s a program being constantly reloaded or a human that’s being subjected into one virtual world after another?

[This message has been edited by no. 47 (edited 05-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by no. 47 (edited 05-19-2003).]

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gnrfan
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posted 05-19-2003 07:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gnrfan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Before we attempt to discard the possibility of a 2nd matrix why not continue attempting to provide a coherent explanation for the newly discovered ability of Neo to "stop" the sentinels in the "real world"?
One thing is undeniable: "Something is different" as Neo verbalizes.

Only seconds before Neo stops the sentinels with something almost identical to a EMP he "realizes" something: he can feel the machines.

It Neo were a human being who has discovered how to emmit his own EMPs at will even at the cost of a comma, has he also developed the extrasensorial ability to "feel" the machines?

Another post suggested he is still wirelessly connected to the matrix and pointed the humans, even the whole zionite council believe the one has something import to try inside the matrix before they can think of facing the machines with brute force using all their ship power.

From the meeting with the Architect we can conclude Neo is a program designed to learn how to reproduce the exact human experience, even love, hope and denial.

Is "the one" is an anomaly, why the architect talk about "the function" of the one?

Is it the matrix the one debugging itself or
is the machine race advancing their artifical intelligence by deploying a whole virtual world and using even "real humans" what we see taking place?

Adding a second layer of virtual reality explains many things but also opens a lot of
holes... Believing that Neo is a supernatural (may I say mutated) human may explain a bit his newly adquired ability to produce EMPs but would not explain the change in universe physics we'll have to swallow if we get to see a "superman" Neo flying even thru' the caverns sorrounding Zion while being prosecuted by an squadron of sentinels.

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mnl
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posted 05-19-2003 07:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mnl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Given the content of Reloaded I'd think it's safe to assume pretty major twists in Revolutions. As you say, the matrix in a matrix in a matrix theory is too obvious. If Revolutions is anything like Reloaded, it will be a whole lot more complex than that.

There's lots of speculation regarding Neo being a program etc - and it could well be. A core theme of the movies is control and purpose. We find out that the Oracle, the Agents, and even Zion, are all systems of control designed by the Architect to keep everything running as smoothly as possible.

In Reloaded, we find out that a lot of people & things aren't what they first seemed. I'm interested to know who else isn't what they seem. We know the Architect, the Oracle etc are programs, all put there to guide Neo (the anomally) to his purpose - to reset or "reload" the matrix. So who gives Neo the illusion of choice more than any other character in the movies? Who leads Neo every step of the journey, from his "birth" all the way to the Architect's door? Who believes in a "purpose" more so than anyone else in the movie (based on the "prophesies" of the Oracle - a program fulfilling her purpose), against the voice of reason from the real world? Who seems completely lost (without purpose) when the Oracle's prophecy doesn't come true because Neo chooses Trinity, not Zion?

The Wachowskis have stated that the character names are the key to the matrix. This is pretty true for many of the character / place names in the movies. In Greek mythology, Morpheus is Greek for the "two faced god of sleep" who is able to assume any humanoid form. This doesn't mean Morpheus is necessarily evil, but I would care to guess that he isn't your run of the mill Zionite.

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gnrfan
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posted 05-19-2003 07:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gnrfan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know if this path will lead as to some light but I wanted to share some thoughts with all of you in the forum:

1.- Do machines *REALLY* need our heat as their only source of energy????

This seemed to me illogical from the little physics I know since the first movie.

Ok. I know from the story Morpheous told Neo and from the Animatrix series we humans destroyed the sky and denied the machines their source of solar energy...

...but wait!! What?? How can that be possible?

If machines are smart enough as to build the matrix and enslave the human race how can't they provide themselves with much better sources of energy????

They got plenty of options:

- Nuclear energy
- Eolic energy
- Vapor, hydrogen, etc

They don't even have to bother looking for alternative energy it they prefer solar energy:

- Why not use satellites out of our atmosphere and just transmit the energy like microwaves to stations in the surface of earth???

- Why not build an space station!!! Why they need to live in the ground???

- Why not inhabitate the moon or mars?? They're machines!! they don't need oxygen not anything.. just some sort of energy to produce electricity...

2.- If machines need bio-generated electricity for some reason why do they bother to deal with the conflictive human race?

Why not use gorillas or chimpances?... whatever!! Why not use rats??!! I don't know!! You might say it's not the same..
but the human body is no unparalelled miracle in nature.. I'm not a physician not a physicist too but if you really need all of those BTUs you can get'em from simpler species without all the trouble we the humans provide...

3.- Is is our "very nature" what machines are trying to "copy"??

Wait!! If machines consider as "inferior" why do they need to make programs that replicate exactly in software our own
inferior nature???

Now.. the Architect, he's a machine, right?? One important "personality" in the machine culture/society if he's to be credited as the author of the all-important matrix...

How could a machine "understand" what concepts like love or hope are if they are unable to reproduce them???

Are machines trying to "debug" themselves then from this "undesirable" "features" we humans have they have inherited from us, their original creators???

[This message has been edited by gnrfan (edited 05-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by gnrfan (edited 05-19-2003).]

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gnrfan
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posted 05-19-2003 08:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gnrfan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If it's all about Greek names let's go thru' that path:

Neo is "the new one", the "apprentice" in the first movie and the "renewed hope" in the 2nd.

Morpheous is the "God of Sleep". It was him -not Trinity- who awakened Neo from his normal life as a software engineer, trained and "awake" again to his condition of "the one".

And now "Trinity".. Wait!! It's not Greek. Ok, the name is what's important. Does it has to do with a father, a son and a holy spirit?? Is Trinity the father, the son and the link within them, all in the same entity???

[This message has been edited by gnrfan (edited 05-19-2003).]

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gnrfan
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posted 05-19-2003 08:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gnrfan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can someone post the text of the conversation between Neo and the Oracle in the park? Many quotes from the dialogue between Neo and the Architect have been posted since they are also very relevant. Also some clues seem to be in the conversation with the French guys.

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no. 47
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posted 05-19-2003 08:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
if a revolution is the onset of a war, then can we consider the war against man vs. machine a revolution though that it's been on going for atleast a century?...I think in the the 3rd matrix, it would be a revolution between machines, hence the theory of a 2nd matrix (a matrix within a matrix) and Neo being a another program of control/ or a mind thats subjected into one virtual reality into another fits accordingly?..what do you guys think? (",)

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Desi316
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posted 05-19-2003 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Desi316     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
K...i dont know exactly know which theory to believe in, but i think a few have overlooked this point....the spoon that the kid gives new seems to be all bent up and twisted and old...which i think implies that neo is not the only with supernatural powers in the "real world"...the spoon bending kid also seems to be alive and kicking in the "real world"...or maybe its the same spoon...which would mean the real world is not the real world.....this kind of leads to the matrix within a matrix theory.

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Neo513
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posted 05-19-2003 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neo513     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with the 2nd matrix idea. That would explain the title of the film quite well. Reloaded? The architect spoke of how they destroyed Zion 6 times. I truly doubt that they then allowed 27 (or whatever the number) humans to escape and build a new Zion that would threaten the existance of the Machines. It would make more sense if every time the machines destroyed Zion in the second matrix, that they reloaded the scenario and started it over, as an attempt to keep 'the one', who cannot be controlled within the Matrix we know exists , in check.

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Neo513
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posted 05-19-2003 10:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neo513     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I almost forgot, i've been reading stuff about Neo being a computer program. I doubt that. The architect stated that Neo was special because of his inability to accept the matrix program, even subconciously. That's why he's an 'anomoly', so to speak. His inability to accept the matrix is also why he was able to destroy the hunters in what i believe is the matrix outside of the known matrix. He knows that it's not real, and is subsequentially able to change things in the outer matrix as well.

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Neo513
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posted 05-19-2003 10:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neo513     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I almost forgot, i've been reading stuff about Neo being a computer program. I doubt that. The architect stated that Neo was special because of his inability to accept the matrix program, even subconciously. That's why he's an 'anomoly', so to speak. His inability to accept the matrix is also why he was able to destroy the hunters in what i believe is the matrix outside of the known matrix. He knows that it's not real, and is subsequentially able to change things in the outer matrix as well.

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gnrfan
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posted 05-19-2003 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gnrfan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I remember from the trailers -that include scenes from both Matrix 2 & 3- seeing Neo flying like superman and being chased by sentinels!!

Wait!! If the "real world" or "the world of Zion" -which might be a better way to refer to it- were "real" how do you explain that physics.. No way...

Now, I don't have the trailers here with me.. I'll be able to check'em in a few hours but... as far as I recall Neo is flying thru' a landscape of skyscrapers in a big city...

I don't think the people in the "original" matrix want to see flying sentinels in their illusion so these must be an extreme situation we're leading with now... something like Neo getting in and out of the first and second matrixes and being followed by sentinels all over the place.

If Neo has all of his full "superman" powers in the "first" and "second" matrix, what's needed to escape to the real world.????

Maybe the revolution is about machines revolting again the other machines.. and freen mankind because these machines have become genuine "virtual humans".

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snyper
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posted 05-19-2003 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for snyper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello,

Can you all see what we are doing now? We are HELPING the W. Brothers to finish their movie! Thats what they want us to do. NO. STOP. Dont evaluate and make hypothesis for this movie. What will come out is still Hollywood style and WILL NOT have any RELATION to our DAILY LIFE. This is a fact and will always be. SO STOP TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO END THE STORY IN A HUMAN WAY. Stay away instead. Sleep. Eat like what we are supposed to do and let the Brothers do their work. Time will tell...

.\snyper

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sinjin987
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posted 05-19-2003 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sinjin987     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's no need to help the Brothers' W. to finish their movie, as it is already done--both movies were shot concurrently (picture "Reloaded" and "Revolutions" as a four-hour movie, with a six-month intermission =P ) and are pretty much "done".

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NuclearFart
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posted 05-19-2003 12:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NuclearFart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am seeing some good points here, but it seems some of you are using contradictory logic:

If you accept that Neo is a program, then are you not also accepting that the "real" world is in fact part of the matrix?

How could a program exist and function without an operating system?

Even if its a "Wireless connection" or whatever, how would a program materialize itself in the "real world"? I don't think Neo is a hologram...it would have been pretty tough for Trinity to have sex with a hologram unless that Ho was faking it.

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ged_is
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posted 05-19-2003 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ged_is     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi,
Just a take on the movies:

Matrix is about machines controlling humans because machines needs human energies to survive. It does this thru controlling the minds of humans.

However, an anamoly appears in the Matrix program such that The One is able to wake up from the Matrix to free others. Slowly people break free & form Zion.

The Matrix is aware of the prescence of the anamoly & the existence of Zion. They monitor the activites of Zion closely. They do not exterminate Zion yet because Zion works to their advantage by containing the 1% of people who do not accept the Matrix.

The thought of destroying Zion is ever-present for the machines, because if Zion gets too powerful, the Matrix is not sustainable. However, because the Matrix is dependent on Zion for containment of the 1% of people, it does not destroy Zion completely, it reloads & Zion starts again.

When another anomaly appears (within the Matrix's calculation), they take the opportunity to make use of him to destroy & rebuild Zion. They do this "by design", conditioning the environment of "The One", from the time he was born right up to before he was awakened, to feel a general attachment to humankind as a whole.

The Oracle program guided along to meet the Architect. Everything is planned right from the start. When the time comes for him to make the choice, he is supposed to choose the door that allows him to select a number of people to start Zion again, ie. to save mankind.

Hence, everytime the Matrix feels that Zion is getting too big as a threat, & the anamoly appears, they take the opportunity to destroy Zion & rebuilds again. This gives rise to a cycle which goes on & on.

However, this time round, Neo did not choose the same choice as his predecessors, because of his love for Trinity. Hence the ending should be different, because his choice is something the machines did not count on.

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Crimedog
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posted 05-19-2003 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Crimedog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A brilliant philosophical discussion can be found at: http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

Also, I've noticed some pointless posts are starting to creep in. A shame, the posts so far have been really good.

Crimedog

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scarmouth
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posted 05-19-2003 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Um, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but perhaps 1 or 2 levels of Matrix may be a bit limiting.

Ever hear of recursion? It's the process of calling the same subroutine or function over and over.

It may just be that there are still 6 levels of matrix and Neo may trigging the next recursive call.

So, maybe the matrix is a recursive class called whenever the coppertop refuses to accept the current iteration.

The human wakes up and then is passed (ByRef) to the newly created class.

This continues until there is an OUT OF MEMORY error.

So suppose the ORACLE (database) is there to accumulate human attributes to help revise the matrix CLASS so that it is more and more modeled to accomidate human behavior. Her ultimate object is to stop further recursive calls of the matrix CLASS and therefore AVOID the dread OUT OF MEMORY error.

Of course, the coppertops may be RAM to the SU (super computer). This could provide the SU with a limitless memory base as new coppertops are created as more memory is needed. This explains population explosion in CHINA Doesn't do much for AIDS

However, recursion is expensive and will over take the CPU's ability to install more memory.

Anyway, you WAKE UP into a new world only to eventually believe it not real. So the CPU works magic on you and re-inserts into into the next CLASS version of the MATRIX.

Hopefully the ORACLE gets it right eventually(Then again I like SQLSERVER...Microsoft to the end )

If not, the CPU is in a world of hurtz!

[This message has been edited by scarmouth (edited 05-19-2003).]

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scarmouth
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posted 05-19-2003 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by klingsor:
suicides. He said "entire crops were lost" or something like that.

Probably talking about the copper tops

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larkface123
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posted 05-19-2003 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for larkface123     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Oex0L:
I am a gay homosexual who stalks lesbians named Nora.

Why yes, yes you are.
Glad to see we agree on something.

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scarmouth
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posted 05-19-2003 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by klingsor:
It's quite a creative concept to concieve of programs with feelings and a purpose and to think of machines as having many difficulties present in humans as well, such as contrasting viewpoints on what to do.

When u consider the ORACLE (database) as having a repository of human emotions to date (so to speak) it isn't to hard to conceive programs behaving as though they have emotions.

In addition, how do you kill a program? Really. Ain't anyone ever heard of a backup? Geez!

[This message has been edited by scarmouth (edited 05-19-2003).]

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brian27
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posted 05-19-2003 04:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for brian27     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
um, im just guessing, but is it possible that the merovingian has the othe 5 ones in his possesion, i mean when neo fights them their are 6, but one is that goon that was watching dracula,

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scarmouth
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posted 05-19-2003 04:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ged_is:
Merovingian
He was a powerful renegade program that hid in the Matrix. He was good in the beginning but corrupted. Hence the comparison to Neo (who is good) by Persephone. He also needed the keymaker for nefarious reasons (the keymaker allows him access to all places).

Um, not realy a renagade. He's there to stop all beside NEO from getting the key. Cuz only "the one" is powerful enough to get past him.

Pretty neat making it so difficult to get to the core as only the strongest ID (and therefore the code to be inserted into the new MATRIX CLASS) can survive Merovingian and his cohorts.

So, Merovingian is part of the CPU plan...

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cheemor
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posted 05-19-2003 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cheemor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't believe that Neo is himself a program and I also don't believe in the whole 2-level matrix thing. If there were 2 Matrices, why wouldn't there be 368 matrices, etc, etc. Also, since Neo proved the Oracle wrong in the 1st movie (either he or Morpheus would die), and proved the Architect wrong in this movie (Trinity was going to die), it makes sense that he is a more developed "Better" One than the previous 5, and that's possibly how he can 'feel' the machines and consequently stop them in the real world. And I think Morpheus will play a BIG role in the 3rd movie. Not because of anything I saw in either movie, just a gut feeling b/c some people believe in him, some don't, and some think he's a nutcase. Either way, this was a great movie that has made people think more than the first one did, in my opinion. There are situations in a lot of movies that happen, but aren't explained until later in the movie, and the end of the Matrix is a situation that won't be explained until the 3rd (and final) installment. Peace.

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scarmouth
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posted 05-19-2003 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cheemor:
I don't believe that Neo is himself a program and I also don't believe in the whole 2-level matrix thing. If there were 2 Matrices, why wouldn't there be 368 matrices, etc, etc. Also, since Neo proved the Oracle wrong in the 1st movie (either he or Morpheus would die), and proved the Architect wrong in this movie (Trinity was going to die), it makes sense that he is a more developed "Better" One than the previous 5, and that's possibly how he can 'feel' the machines and consequently stop them in the real world. And I think Morpheus will play a BIG role in the 3rd movie. Not because of anything I saw in either movie, just a gut feeling b/c some people believe in him, some don't, and some think he's a nutcase. Either way, this was a great movie that has made people think more than the first one did, in my opinion. There are situations in a lot of movies that happen, but aren't explained until later in the movie, and the end of the Matrix is a situation that won't be explained until the 3rd (and final) installment. Peace.

There could still be 386 Matricies. Really, what compells ANY of the programs to tell the truth? All answers given by the programs are designed (I suppose) to promote the CPU.

Um, NEO did die. The ORACLE never said NEO would stay dead

Um, TRINITY did die. The Architect never said TRINITY would stay dead

[This message has been edited by scarmouth (edited 05-19-2003).]

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-19-2003 05:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I want to address the Neo as a program idea and the multiple level matrix theory (I talked about it before). I think they have become inextricably intertwined in this discussion.

Let me state the facts we can observe and then try to elucidate their implications:
1. Agent Smith downloaded into a crew member and was going to assassinate Neo, but eventually sabatoged the defense of the ships against the machines. He was the lone survivor. SO... Agent Smith exists in the "real world" and this is the last shot of Reloaded.
* This shows us an important aspect of the metaphysics in the Wachowski's world. A program can download or copy into a "real" human body. However, you might consider this to be a new ability since Smith just figured out how to replicate. Secondly, doesn't this really call into question whether or not just because Neo has a human body, he is a "real" human?

2. Obviously, Neo has supernatural powers in the real world now because of the EMP at the end of the movie.
*YOU MUST ACCEPT one of these scenarios:
A. Neo has suddenly gained these superhuman powers because he is "not human" anymore. (Many references made to the fact that he is still human throughout Reloaded) If he is not human is he a program or a supernatural being?
B. Neo is such an amazing messiah that he has supernatural powers in the "real world" now. He has undergone some type of development to lead him to this amazing leap in ability. (I find this too simplistic; this is the "average joe" scenario) THIS IS WHAT I ASSUME YOU GUYS ARE ADVOCATING IN MY OPINION UNLESS YOU COME UP WITH ANOTHER SCENARIO.
C. The world of Zion is a second level matrix, and he has just realized he can wield the same abilities in the "real world" that is actually virtual. (I find this the most plausible)
D. The real world exists, but "something is different". Perhaps Neo is now in a virtual world after he rescued Trinity. Maybe he really screwed things up with his decision, so now he's somehow transferred into this virtual world. This doesn't really make any sense.
*OR does it? Recall that a program can become a human. Why can't the matrix make a human a program? If Neo's body died in the real world maybe the matrix transferred him into a virtual world for some weird reason we have yet to discover.

NOTE: WATCH the movie "The 13th Floor" because this movie shows the same scenario.

(If you can think up another scenario please do.)

3. The people that don't accept the matrix facilitate the anomaly. The anomaly snowballs until everyone denies the matrix. Neo is supposed to rescue Zion by choosing the 23 from the matrix to recreate Zion.
* There is either a huge hole in the plot that makes no sense or there is a big surprise waiting. How do these 23 people find or create a new Zion? Wouldn't it just be the same old cavern cleaned up after each attack? After all no one in the "present" really has any idea or knows any of the founders of Zion. The council in power seems pretty sketchy to me and not much different from leaders in the "real world". Wouldn't the machines know where Zion was before the first movie? This completely invalidates the attempt of Agent Smith in Matrix 1 to find the "coordinates" of Zion. The whole process of finding coordinates is some elaborate charade meant to trick the Zion people into thinking they are a secret from the matrix. What in the flying fig is the purpose of this? I suggest that once again, there is another supportive line of reasoning for the multi-level matrix theory
*This charade would be necessary to trick everyone into believing that they are in the real world.

Finally, no one has commented on Simulacra and Simulation by Jean Baudrillard. Once again guys, this book is in the first movie. This book is about how even when you think you know what is real, it is negated by the existence of a simulation. There is supposed to be an implosion of culture in society in our real world outside of the movies due to this blurring of reality. Look at this site if you don't care to read a book: http://www.uta.edu/english/apt/collab/Implosion.html

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-19-2003 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another better summary of Simulacra and Simulation: http://www.uta.edu/english/apt/collab/texts/dreamwork.html

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-19-2003 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DoogsDC:
Another better summary of Simulacra and Simulation: http://www.uta.edu/english/apt/collab/texts/dreamwork.html

Note that the "Matrix" is the Level 3 image.

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Lush
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posted 05-19-2003 05:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lush     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Response to Koosh: Not sure if they are the same songs, but the Lady in Red song is "Clubbed to Death (Kurayamino Mix)".

Enjoyed reading everyones opinions - had to see it twice before I felt confident enough to post. I gotta say the plot seems to indicate a matrix within a matrix: Neo has a slew of new abilities in the Zion World - indicating that it is a construct; it is my opinion that it has always been a construct, from the day Neo took his pill.

Interesting is the Oracle's interest in Neo's "sight", asking him questions, as if she does not know the answer or seen for herself. The "program" conveyed real interest there, instead of issuing conclusory directives. Could this be an indicator of the reason behind the matrix?

I also like one poster's view on Morpheus being a program, with some strong logic in support there, which would bring a whole blade runner emptiness to the films, which I would highly approve of - heh.

"I have survived your predecessors!" says the Merovengian (sp). Indicates either multiple matrices or that the one Matrix is not entirely written over. I prefer the latter, as there were indications that the exiled program thing were leftovers from earlier versions - can't remember where I exactly picked that one up though.

One paradox - Zion has been destroyed six times yet all predecessors of Neo have opted to save the Human Race. Why does Zion have to be destroyed every time, regardless of the One's choice - perhaps Neo's choice was not so original? Or was Neo to start a whole new Zion from scratch? Easy to explain this one away with multiple matrices - the second layer being the failsafe control of the matrix program.

We're certainly positioned for some huge plot twists with the third movie.

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nemesis
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posted 05-19-2003 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nemesis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Today was the second time I saw the movie and though some of my questions were answered by seeing it again, a new set of questions emerged.

1). After seeing the movie the first time, I could've sworn that the person lying across from neo was Cypher. This drew a huge shock from me, since Cypher was apparently killed by Tank in the first movie. But after the initial confusion, I concluded that perhaps I didn't get a look at him and maybe the man lying down was indeed Bane (the man whose body Mr. Smith invaded). And so today I studied the face of the man lying down to make sure he was Bane. I still saw Cypher. If I'm right, this brings up a whole new set of questions. Did Cypher somehow survive in the first movie and was possessed by Mr. Smith after the fight with Neo? If both is true, I kind of find it ironic that Cypher, who hated the real world and wanted to be plugged into the matrix, was infused by Mr. Smith, who hated the matrix and "wanted out." Any thoughts on this?

2). At the end of the movie some people were under the impression that Zion was destroyed. And yet after the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar abandoned ship Neo mentioned something like "if nothing is done within 24 hours, Zion will be destroyed." So one would assume by this statement (assuming that his coma didn't last 24 hours) that Zion WASN'T destroyed by the invasion. And yet the captain mentioned that the machines "broke through the line" and it was a "slaughter." Was he describing the slaughter of the defense or the slaughter of Zion? And if it was only the defense that was destroyed, why did the machines "continue digging," as he mentioned? Can someone clear that up?

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