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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
Xcubetion
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posted 05-19-2003 08:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xcubetion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nemesis:
Today was the second time I saw the movie and though some of my questions were answered by seeing it again, a new set of questions emerged.

1). After seeing the movie the first time, I could've sworn that the person lying across from neo was Cypher. This drew a huge shock from me, since Cypher was apparently killed by Tank in the first movie. But after the initial confusion, I concluded that perhaps I didn't get a look at him and maybe the man lying down was indeed Bane (the man whose body Mr. Smith invaded). And so today I studied the face of the man lying down to make sure he was Bane. I still saw Cypher. If I'm right, this brings up a whole new set of questions. Did Cypher somehow survive in the first movie and was possessed by Mr. Smith after the fight with Neo? If both is true, I kind of find it ironic that Cypher, who hated the real world and wanted to be plugged into the matrix, was infused by Mr. Smith, who hated the matrix and "wanted out." Any thoughts on this?

2). At the end of the movie some people were under the impression that Zion was destroyed. And yet after the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar abandoned ship Neo mentioned something like "if nothing is done within 24 hours, Zion will be destroyed." So one would assume by this statement (assuming that his coma didn't last 24 hours) that Zion WASN'T destroyed by the invasion. And yet the captain mentioned that the machines "broke through the line" and it was a "slaughter." Was he describing the slaughter of the defense or the slaughter of Zion? And if it was only the defense that was destroyed, why did the machines "continue digging," as he mentioned? Can someone clear that up?


1---

I hate ignorant fools.

2---
If you listened more in the movie, the defense captain was setting up the plan for the machines as a counter attack, these were the 5 ships that was sent, and this was the ones destroyed and 'slaughtered' due to the 'early EMP', Machines continued digging to the city of Zion.

[This message has been edited by Xcubetion (edited 05-19-2003).]

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larkface123
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posted 05-19-2003 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for larkface123     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xcubetion:
I hate ignorant fools.

Play nice kiddies

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Malrix
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posted 05-19-2003 09:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why do you think of the dual Matrix as a Matrix within the Matrix? It could just simply be 1 Matrix that does the trick. How? Simple matter of an IF statement. IF anomaly in human goes above The Limit THEN activate "the side program" with Zion and all that stuff. That side program is specially designed for those 1%. AND it cannot possible be another 1% within that first 1% simply because

1. the WAR between humans and machines is going on, so people of Zion are occupied, they have no time to wonder about other levels of Matrix, they have job to do: fight machines and "free" others.

2. To ensure that there would be no 1% within 1% "the side program" destroys the Zion every once in a while.

This theory would also explain why that annoying kid (who woke up himself) did not woke up in the real "real world" (passed the intermidiate Matrix) but just stepped into the "side program"

any ideas?

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-19-2003 10:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malrix:
Why do you think of the dual Matrix as a Matrix within the Matrix? ...
any ideas?

Whether you call it a "side program" or a "matrix within a matrix", the fact remains, that Zion is not the ultimate level of reality according to either of these terms. I think we're diverging from the real debate when we argue semantics, but Malrix makes a good point for understanding the mechanics of the "2nd level". I think we should just call this theory "THE 2ND LEVEL" from now on to eliminate confusion. It makes it sound like a game, and I think its kind of cool.

In addition, since no one is arguing the other side (supernatural neo), I've got an alternative argument. If the "2nd Level" existed, wouldn't the fight in Zion be pointless. The matrix could just pull the plug on these people and kill them. Could anyone out there refute this idea? This idea might create a paradox in the plot if they veer off to the "2nd Level" idea. They would need to invent some reason why the system couldn't pull the plug on the Zion residents. This is really hard to do.

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McAodh
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posted 05-19-2003 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for McAodh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice discussion so far. See some variations occurring in here, but lets see if I can confuse or enlighten a little.

I am still holding to both the Matrix and the Real World (will refer to as Zion from here out) as being on the same main frame. To explain this position, in line with my earlier post, I am going to use this example.

You have a computer with 1 hard drive. You divide this into 2 partitions. The First is Called Matrix and is a Win 3.0 partition. The second is called Zion and is a Linux Partition. Understand so far? good.

Both run on the same computer, however for the most part, each operates independantly of each other. Now we go into the details.

The people that are trapped in the matrix are simply files ( some are text, some pictures, others are programs ). They run their functions as described. The people in Zion are also files. They run similar functions.

Now, Zion (linux) lets you mount matrix (windows) hard drives. When you mount the Hard Drive, you can retrieve, edit, delete and create files on this drive with little effort. However, Matrix does not let you do the same with Zion files. It rarely see's any files from Zion. And if it does let you see them, it requires a lot of extras.

Over time, newer versions of Matrix come out (win95, win98, win2k, winxp) and each time you upgrade the matrix to match. Now as some of you know. WinXP allows you to run earlier programs in compatibility mode. This runs the program in a way that the earlier version would have. But you could not run a WinXP program in Win98 (it had no ability). This accounts for the older programs sometimes doing things they shouldn't.

(Confused yet???)

Zion still acts the same. It doesn't care because it is still windows. It handles the files in the same way.

Then you get some bright programmer who comes up with the notion to write a program to allow you to see Zion from Matrix. At the same time another programmer is doing the same. Both work, but both have flaws.

They crash their computer and reboot. They will know where they messed up and in time how to fix it. When they get it right, they will be able to work with any file on either partition with little effort.

This is where Reloaded ends.

Did I make any converts, or just confuse a lot more people?

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furiousgeorge
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posted 05-19-2003 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for furiousgeorge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice discussion, glad I stumbled upon this site.

In light of all the Reloaded discussion, question about Trinity. Does she have plugs? Somehow I can't remember seeing plugs on her in the "real" world. In The Matrix, what is the significance of neo being familiar with Trinity as the one who hacked the IRS database? Does it seem strange, that the movie mentions the name of a real-life american institution like the IRS? I can't remember any other mentions of anything from real life in the matrix movies. Even Tasty Wheat is ficticious...is this a Wachowski joke perhaps (the only certainties in life are death and taxes)? Or something more?

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-19-2003).]

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no. 47
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posted 05-19-2003 11:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Desi316:
K...i dont know exactly know which theory to believe in, but i think a few have overlooked this point....the spoon that the kid gives new seems to be all bent up and twisted and old...which i think implies that neo is not the only with supernatural powers in the "real world"...the spoon bending kid also seems to be alive and kicking in the "real world"...or maybe its the same spoon...which would mean the real world is not the real world.....this kind of leads to the matrix within a matrix theory.

that was brilliant. (",)

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furiousgeorge
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posted 05-19-2003 11:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for furiousgeorge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On the architect and the 2 matrices theory: I don't understand something. If Neo chooses the door to save humanity, all in Zion are destroyed by squiddies and he selects 23 people to repopulate Zion and the cycle starts over.

First, what happens to Neo in that case? He must be destroyed right?

Second, how are the 23 people supposed to understand the technology in Zion? I mean, run or even understand the zion computers, run the devices, pilot and repair hovercraft ships, tap into the matrix using their equipment, etc.? Who is going to even rebuild their muscle tissue, etc. and teach them?

Seems impossible.

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-20-2003).]

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Xcubetion
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posted 05-20-2003 12:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xcubetion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by furiousgeorge:
On the architect and the 2 matrices theory: I don't understand something. If Neo chooses the door to save humanity, all in Zion are destroyed by squiddies and he selects 23 people to repopulate Zion and the cycle starts over.

First, what happens to Neo in that case? He must be destroyed right?

Second, how are the 23 people supposed to understand the technology in Zion? I mean, run or even understand the zion computers, run the devices, pilot and repair hovercraft ships, tap into the matrix using their equipment, etc.? Who is going to even rebuild their muscle tissue, etc. and teach them?

Seems impossible.

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-20-2003).]


Whats really going to get you with that statement is...

Why even rebuild a Zion


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rbstern
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posted 05-20-2003 12:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rbstern     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by furiousgeorge:
[B]On the architect and the 2 matrices theory: I don't understand something. If Neo chooses the door to save humanity, all in Zion are destroyed by squiddies and he selects 23 people to repopulate Zion and the cycle starts over.

First, what happens to Neo in that case? He must be destroyed right?

Second, how are the 23 people supposed to understand the technology in Zion? I mean, run or even understand the zion computers, run the devices, pilot and repair hovercraft ships, tap into the matrix using their equipment, etc.? Who is going to even rebuild their muscle tissue, etc. and teach them?

Seems impossible.


Not in a computer simulation.

He's not really freeing 23 people. He's changing the computer generated dreamworld of 23 people.

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no. 47
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posted 05-20-2003 12:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i remember when neo had that conversation with the oracle at the bench...she said something about time being irrelevant (or something of that nature)…Now, if Zion has been destroyed five times and at each time the One reaches the architect is a Keanu/or an Anderson/ or a Neo then time would be irrelevant, right?. What is the probability of all of them looking alike/ experiencing almost the same sequence of events that lead them to the architect? Minute, right? Unless that is, they were all him!?…But how? Does the theory of Neo being a program being constantly reloaded because he’s just another system of control that keeps a greater Purpose in check sort of makes sense? Or, is he a human that is subjected into one virtual world after another for the same reason, and if that’s so the case then the theory of a matrix in a matrix can be true. But why and what is this greater purpose?…Well, the reason why the matrix was made was to keep human minds from waking up to the real world so that a symbiotic nature between man and machine can be secured …Morpheus did mention in his speech at the cavern that they have been at war with the machines for over a century and have survived for over a century…so I feel it’s safe to say that a revolution is an onset of a war, and if that’s the case then Matrix3:revolution (as the title implies) could be a revolution between machines, hence the theory of a second matrix or Neo being a Program makes some logical explanation.

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no. 47
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posted 05-20-2003 01:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by McAodh:
Nice discussion so far. See some variations occurring in here, but lets see if I can confuse or enlighten a little.

I am still holding to both the Matrix and the Real World (will refer to as Zion from here out) as being on the same main frame. To explain this position, in line with my earlier post, I am going to use this example.

You have a computer with 1 hard drive. You divide this into 2 partitions. The First is Called Matrix and is a Win 3.0 partition. The second is called Zion and is a Linux Partition. Understand so far? good.

Both run on the same computer, however for the most part, each operates independantly of each other. Now we go into the details.

The people that are trapped in the matrix are simply files ( some are text, some pictures, others are programs ). They run their functions as described. The people in Zion are also files. They run similar functions.

Now, Zion (linux) lets you mount matrix (windows) hard drives. When you mount the Hard Drive, you can retrieve, edit, delete and create files on this drive with little effort. However, Matrix does not let you do the same with Zion files. It rarely see's any files from Zion. And if it does let you see them, it requires a lot of extras.

Over time, newer versions of Matrix come out (win95, win98, win2k, winxp) and each time you upgrade the matrix to match. Now as some of you know. WinXP allows you to run earlier programs in compatibility mode. This runs the program in a way that the earlier version would have. But you could not run a WinXP program in Win98 (it had no ability). This accounts for the older programs sometimes doing things they shouldn't.

(Confused yet???)

Zion still acts the same. It doesn't care because it is still windows. It handles the files in the same way.

Then you get some bright programmer who comes up with the notion to write a program to allow you to see Zion from Matrix. At the same time another programmer is doing the same. Both work, but both have flaws.

They crash their computer and reboot. They will know where they messed up and in time how to fix it. When they get it right, they will be able to work with any file on either partition with little effort.

This is where Reloaded ends.

Did I make any converts, or just confuse a lot more people?


hey guy, you seem to know your techy stuff. (",) So if you're saying that Zion is the real world and that there is just one matrix, then how do you explain Neo and his five predecessors? Because from what you’re saying I can base that Neo is a human being from Zion, but how could that be if all his five predecessors could be him?..do you see my point? (“,)..So my question to you is do you support the idea of neo being a program?

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HoriRori
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posted 05-20-2003 02:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for HoriRori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by furiousgeorge:

In The Matrix, what is the significance of neo being familiar with Trinity as the one who hacked the IRS database? Does it seem strange, that the movie mentions the name of a real-life american institution like the IRS? I can't remember any other mentions of anything from real life in the matrix movies.
[QUOTE]

There are several examples of our real world in the Matrix, in the form of product placements: Ducati, Nokia, Cadillac, etc. Tasty Wheat is probably fictitious because no cereal manufacturers were willing to cough up the dough for some marginal advertising.

The funny thing about Trinity cracking "the IRS d-base" is that, to the best of my knowledge, the IRS is still hopelessly paper based. E-returns are printed out before being filed. There's nothing there for Trinity to hack, at least not yet.

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no. 47
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posted 05-20-2003 03:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by furiousgeorge:
Nice discussion, glad I stumbled upon this site.

In light of all the Reloaded discussion, question about Trinity. Does she have plugs? Somehow I can't remember seeing plugs on her in the "real" world. In The Matrix, what is the significance of neo being familiar with Trinity as the one who hacked the IRS database? Does it seem strange, that the movie mentions the name of a real-life american institution like the IRS? I can't remember any other mentions of anything from real life in the matrix movies. Even Tasty Wheat is ficticious...is this a Wachowski joke perhaps (the only certainties in life are death and taxes)? Or something more?

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-19-2003).]



Yes I think trinty has plugs because how else could she get connected to the matrix.

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no. 47
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posted 05-20-2003 03:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by furiousgeorge:
Nice discussion, glad I stumbled upon this site.

In light of all the Reloaded discussion, question about Trinity. Does she have plugs? Somehow I can't remember seeing plugs on her in the "real" world. In The Matrix, what is the significance of neo being familiar with Trinity as the one who hacked the IRS database? Does it seem strange, that the movie mentions the name of a real-life american institution like the IRS? I can't remember any other mentions of anything from real life in the matrix movies. Even Tasty Wheat is ficticious...is this a Wachowski joke perhaps (the only certainties in life are death and taxes)? Or something more?

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by furiousgeorge (edited 05-19-2003).]


-YEs I think trinty has plugs. how else can she get connected to the matrix?

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McAodh
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posted 05-20-2003 04:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for McAodh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No. 47

So if you're saying that Zion is the real world and that there is just one matrix, then how do you explain Neo and his five predecessors?

Yes, Neo is a program.

When the matrix was created, a man was born inside. He had the power to change anything he saw fit, to remake the matrix as he wanted. He freed the first of us.

Had Neo chosen the door on the right, he would have restarted the matrix and there would have been 23 people awaken because of it. He would of had the ship to get them, and the know how to make them stronger and capable of living outside the matrix. In time he would have died, but he would know that he would return. Those 23 people would have reproduced and in time freed more people. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

By returning to the source he would have downloaded all of his knowledge into the main frame and the Architect would be able to evolve from this. Afterall it is still searching for the "why".


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no. 47
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posted 05-20-2003 04:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hey guys I'm going out in a limb here (but I'll watch the movie again-for the 4th time this week, just to be sure), but I’ve been reading posts here about the Architect mentioning something about 99% of subjects choose to accept the matrix while 1% denies it (or was it more likely 99.9% vs 0.1%?). Did he really refer it to the matrix?. From what I heard and understood, I thought he was referring to test subjects who sought answers from the oracle. Because after, all she is the intuitive program for the human-psyche as the architect so puts it? “While a minority [of the 1%] of that left uncheck will cause an escalating probability of disaster.” I think he refers to the One and the five other predecessors…Mathematically, it might make sense since that maybe only a handful people sought their destiny to be told? But if that's true, that makes NEo what? A program perhaps. Or maybe a human that’s unconsciously unaware that he is subjected into one virtual world after another.

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no. 47
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posted 05-20-2003 05:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by McAodh:
No. 47

[b]So if you're saying that Zion is the real world and that there is just one matrix, then how do you explain Neo and his five predecessors?

Yes, Neo is a program.

When the matrix was created, a man was born inside. He had the power to change anything he saw fit, to remake the matrix as he wanted. He freed the first of us.

Had Neo chosen the door on the right, he would have restarted the matrix and there would have been 23 people awaken because of it. He would of had the ship to get them, and the know how to make them stronger and capable of living outside the matrix. In time he would have died, but he would know that he would return. Those 23 people would have reproduced and in time freed more people. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

By returning to the source he would have downloaded all of his knowledge into the main frame and the Architect would be able to evolve from this. Afterall it is still searching for the "why".

==good point. (",)if time isn't of the essence then it makes sense...what's the possibility of five messiah's being the same entity at five different time frames experiencing almost the same sequel of events?...For me the "Y" is keeping a controlled and secure symbiotic relationship between man and machine. Any predictions about matrix 3?..

[This message has been edited by no. 47 (edited 05-20-2003).]

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no. 47
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posted 05-20-2003 05:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
mcaodh,

What do you refer to when you've metioned d Y? do you mean what causes the anamoly inside the matrix?

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no. 47
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posted 05-20-2003 05:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
mcaodh,

What do you refer to when you've metioned d Y? do you mean what causes the anamoly inside the matrix?

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furiousgeorge
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posted 05-20-2003 07:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for furiousgeorge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HoriRori:

There are several examples of our real world in the Matrix, in the form of product placements: Ducati, Nokia, Cadillac, etc. Tasty Wheat is probably fictitious because no cereal manufacturers were willing to cough up the dough for some marginal advertising.

The funny thing about Trinity cracking "the IRS d-base" is that, to the best of my knowledge, the IRS is still hopelessly paper based. E-returns are printed out before being filed. There's nothing there for Trinity to hack, at least not yet.

[/B]



Yes that's true. But no character actually says the word Nokia or Cadillac. Those products are there just as marketing endorsements they are not in the script. The IRS Database is in the script.

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no. 47
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posted 05-20-2003 09:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art...flawless, sublime. And triumphed equally only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus. I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another--An intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its Mother.

Neo: The Oracle.

Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice...even if they were only awar e of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.

if trinity is indeed the mother of the matrix then it would makes sense that Zion is another matrix, unless that is trinity unconsciously is a program, like agent smith, who can also adapt in human form in the real world?...Or maybe the architect responded that way because he felt that calling the "program" an oracle, was somewhat of a mockery to him and the construct that he designed? I chose the latter.

[This message has been edited by no. 47 (edited 05-20-2003).]

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scarmouth
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posted 05-20-2003 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by McAodh:
No. 47

So if you're saying that Zion is the real world and that there is just one matrix, then how do you explain Neo and his five predecessors?
Yes, Neo is a program.

When the matrix was created, a man was born inside. He had the power to change anything he saw fit, to remake the matrix as he wanted. He freed the first of us.

Had Neo chosen the door on the right, he would have restarted the matrix and there would have been 23 people awaken because of it. He would of had the ship to get them, and the know how to make them stronger and capable of living outside the matrix. In time he would have died, but he would know that he would return. Those 23 people would have reproduced and in time freed more people. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

By returning to the source he would have downloaded all of his knowledge into the main frame and the Architect would be able to evolve from this. Afterall it is still searching for the "why".


Dude, that was spooky!
Sounds pretty damn plausible.

The Why?
Perhaps the machine wants to why it exists?
And it thinks it can get it from man?
After all, man is the creator!

[This message has been edited by scarmouth (edited 05-20-2003).]

[This message has been edited by scarmouth (edited 05-20-2003).]

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Schneekugel
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posted 05-20-2003 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Schneekugel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Something many of the 'Neo is a program' are missing is that in the Matrix, anyone (ie. humans) can be programmed. Remember Neo's training sessions on the Neb? "I know Kung-fu". It is clear to me from quotes that so many others have painstakingly posted that Neo is human, and all the subroutine programs in the Matrix are well aware of it (Smith, Architect, Oracle, etc..). The question is whether he has been programmed by the Matrix at a deeper level to make certain selections when the choices are given to him.

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mrmup
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posted 05-20-2003 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mrmup     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a question:
When Neo was talking to the architect and his images were on the TV screen....were those images playing back what Neo's predecessors said in response to the architect. Or were they just a display of Neo's possible responses, i.e. his "choices".

If we accept that these were all images of his predecessors and that they all look like him, then we must also accept that Neo NEVER left the matrix (i.e. the dual matrix theory). How else can you explain him going through this SIX times already.

Even though a lot of people don't like the dual matrix theory, it seems to be the most plausible explanation at the moment.

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McAodh
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posted 05-20-2003 12:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for McAodh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The images in the background of Neo with the Architect are all of the possible choices he could make.

For any action there is nth number of reactions (not from the movie - but from quantum mechanics)

You refer to "why" because it is the control.

You could easily predict the choice. He either goes to the door on the left, the door on the right, or he stays in the room.

When you start looking at the "why" you begin to back trace all of the results that led up to it.

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zootiechimp
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posted 05-20-2003 12:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for zootiechimp     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why is the Oracle always giving cookies or candy? Is she giving Neo "programs" or viruses to help shape his actions?

Didn't Neo know not to take candy from strangers?

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PeolesDru
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posted 05-20-2003 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PeolesDru     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DoogsDC:
Agent Smith downloaded into a crew member and was going to assassinate Neo, but eventually sabatoged the defense of the ships against the machines. He was the lone survivor. SO... Agent Smith exists in the "real world" and this is the last shot of Reloaded.
* This shows us an important aspect of the metaphysics in the Wachowski's world. A program can download or copy into a "real" human body. However, you might consider this to be a new ability since Smith just figured out how to replicate. Secondly, doesn't this really call into question whether or not just because Neo has a human body, he is a "real" human?

We do not yet have any evidence that Smith is truly downloaded into that guy. Here's how I break down the options:
1: Smith is really in charge of Bane's body.
1A: This is either proof that Zion is also a construct, for how else would a program rewire the complete synapses of a real person, or...
1B: This is a flaw in the Wachowskis' thinking.
2: Smith is not really downloaded into that guy, but rather that guy is just crazy and has a general idea that he wants Neo dead. This idea is not supported by the fact that Bane's activities seeem rather deliberate and carefully coordinated.

quote:
2. Obviously, Neo has supernatural powers in the real world now because of the EMP at the end of the movie.
*YOU MUST ACCEPT one of these scenarios:
A. Neo has suddenly gained these superhuman powers because he is "not human" anymore. (Many references made to the fact that he is still human throughout Reloaded) If he is not human is he a program or a supernatural being?
B. Neo is such an amazing messiah that he has supernatural powers in the "real world" now. He has undergone some type of development to lead him to this amazing leap in ability. (I find this too simplistic; this is the "average joe" scenario) THIS IS WHAT I ASSUME YOU GUYS ARE ADVOCATING IN MY OPINION UNLESS YOU COME UP WITH ANOTHER SCENARIO.
C. The world of Zion is a second level matrix, and he has just realized he can wield the same abilities in the "real world" that is actually virtual. (I find this the most plausible)
D. The real world exists, but "something is different". Perhaps Neo is now in a virtual world after he rescued Trinity. Maybe he really screwed things up with his decision, so now he's somehow transferred into this virtual world. This doesn't really make any sense.

You neglect:
E. Neo, having implants, has the previously dormant and now expressed capability to communicate with the machines - so he was able to hack the sentinels and make them self-destruct.

Don't get me wrong, I like the "Zion is a matrix" and "NEO is a program" ideas, but E: is a possibility that shouldn't be overlooked.

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teeman11
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posted 05-20-2003 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teeman11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a few quick points and questions for you all.

1)I don't think Neo is a program. Alot of people refer to him as human including the architect.

Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix I've been waiting for you.
You have many questions, and though the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human ergo some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not.
Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realise it is also the most irrelevant.

"...you remain irrevocably human.."

2) If the "real world" is actaully a second matrix then what do we really know about the matrix? Everything we think we know could be fake, fabricated by the machines in the second matrix. If it is a second matrix, why show exactly what the real world looks like? They could make up any reality they want.

3) Does the Architect tell the truth? He could be making up the whole thing about the Matrix crashing just to help sway the One to choose the right door. If he really needs the one to choose the reload option why not trick him into choosing the door he wants?

4) Merovingian said, "Choose is an illusion between those who have power and those who don't." If this is true who do you think has the power between the Architect and Neo?

5) Something else that bugs me about the Architect's speech. Morpheus said, "there was a man born inside the could reshape the matrix as he say fit. It was him that woke the first of use, yadda yadda yadda." If this was true and it was the "5th One" that woke the 23 people who rebuilt Zion this time, why didn't him tell them about what happened? If Neo choose to rebuild and wakes the 23 people, why wouldn't he tell them what he went through to get to that point?

6) Here's a thought I just had about Neo's dreams from Morpheus's quote. What if he doesn't actually see the future but creates the future. Yes, he had a dream about Trinity's death but what if it only happened that way becuase he dream it. Alright, he has the dream about Trinity and remembers it when he wakes up. Those thoughts are now in his head. He logs into the Matrix and those thoughts are somehow loaded into the Matrix and actually happen. "..he could reshape the matrix as he saw fit." He unconsciously causes Trinity to die the way he dreamt it.

I have more but I think that's enough for now, what do you think?

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loki
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posted 05-20-2003 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let me try this one.

Someone noticed that all of the Neos on the screens in the Architect's room turned left when Neo turned left to go out the door. I assume the the Neos on the screens are previous "Ones" because when the Architech says there were 5 other Matrix the people on the screens say different numbers (4, 3, 2 or 1) This would mean that all previous "Ones" had chosen not to restart the matrix.

What if the 23 people was a "test." The architech needs Neo, who is the sum of all the people who do not accept the Matrix (the result of the anomoly, not the anomoly himself) to choose the right door. If they can get Neo to choose the right door (i.e., choose the Matrix), then they have solved the problem of the 1% who do not except the Matrix. They simply put each of the 1% in the same situation as Neo and each will choose the Matrix. However, this time, like the 5 previous times, the "One" chooses not to restart the Matrix.

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Majmun
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posted 05-20-2003 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A little off topic....it seems like they could tie the Matrix in with the Terminator, since machines take over the world in both movies. I guess it depends on if the machines win the battle in Terminator 3...
Back on topic, I also believe we will find that there are two matrixes. It seems to be the only logical explantation of Neo's superpowers in the "Real World", and if Zion has been destroyed 5 times already, why would the machines have to dig down to Zion again, if they've already done it 5 times?

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-20-2003 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Original Quote from PeolesDru answering Me, Doogs DC:

"We do not yet have any evidence that Smith is truly downloaded into that guy. Here's how I break down the options:
1: Smith is really in charge of Bane's body.
1A: This is either proof that Zion is also a construct, for how else would a program rewire the complete synapses of a real person, or...
1B: This is a flaw in the Wachowskis' thinking.
2: Smith is not really downloaded into that guy, but rather that guy is just crazy and has a general idea that he wants Neo dead. This idea is not supported by the fact that Bane's activities seeem rather deliberate and carefully coordinated."

Me:

Simply put, subpoint 1 is the best option. I didn't think there was any question. It doesn't matter whether which of the "2nd Level" matrix or the "real zion" theories are correct in this instance. Bane is now Agent Smith whether Bane was formerly a human or a program or a human in the 2nd level matrix.

I really find no support for subpoint 2. This is why: Agent Smith does the metallic liquid replication trick to Bane before picking up the phone and entering the 2nd level/reality. AGENT SMITH PICKS UP THE PHONE. HOW COULD BANE JUST SIMPLY BE CRAZY? WHAT WOULD THE SIGNIFICANCE OF CUTTING TO BANE IN THE FINAL SHOT BE THEN? It has been said before on this forum that one of the main themes in the movie is the conflict between Smith and Neo. Wouldn't the Smith in Bane scenario be the best to further this theme?

2nd Quote from PeolesDru
"You neglect:
E. Neo, having implants, has the previously dormant and now expressed capability to communicate with the machines - so he was able to hack the sentinels and make them self-destruct.

Don't get me wrong, I like the "Zion is a matrix" and "NEO is a program" ideas, but E: is a possibility that shouldn't be overlooked."

Answer to E. from me: Where does the hacking come into play? Are you saying that he has a computer and hacked the sentinels so that he could perform the EMP shockwave trick just for sh*ts and giggles and put himself in a coma? I don't think he would voluntarily write a program to put himself into a coma a try to fool Morpheus and Trinity. I will grant that he may have a new ability to communicate with the machines in reference to the "He is still human" banter that goes on throughout the movie, as if to foreshadow a transformation. Perhaps he is PART PROGRAM AND PART HUMAN. (This illuminates the reference to the catholic "trinity" that conceives of god as a unity between son, father, and holy spirit) Perhaps that is what you are trying to say or maybe I misunderstood you. Please respond PeolesDru
or someone else please shed some light on these scenarios.

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Majmun
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posted 05-20-2003 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also, can anyone tell me about the animatrix? What's that about?

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-20-2003 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loki:
Let me try this one.

Someone noticed that all of the Neos on the screens in the Architect's room turned left when Neo turned left to go out the door. I assume the the Neos on the screens are previous "Ones" because when the Architech says there were 5 other Matrix the people on the screens say different numbers (4, 3, 2 or 1) This would mean that all previous "Ones" had chosen not to restart the matrix.


I didn't get that interpretation from that scene at all. The easiest explanation without overthinking that scene is that in fact, the whole multiple TV room is like a funhouse meant to disturb Neo and screw with him. All of the images on the screens are as has been said before, possible choices or options for him to respond to the architect's ramblings. The room is more of a visual effects eye candy thing than an actual integral part of the plot. The Neos on the screens are just PROGRAMS made by the architect to respond to Neo's and the Architect's actions.

Secondly, NO, the other "ones" actually picked the right door, or how the hell would there be a sixth matrix? It wouldn't have been reloaded because it wouldn't exist and everyone would have been destroyed. If Neo then understood that they all chose the LEFT door, leading to destruction, yet the sixth matrix was reloaded, there would be no incentive for him to save anything because he wouldn't be needed at all. Reloading would happen regardless of his choice.

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PeolesDru
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posted 05-20-2003 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PeolesDru     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Simply put, subpoint 1 is the best option. I didn't think there was any question. It doesn't matter whether which of the "2nd Level" matrix or the "real zion" theories are correct in this instance. Bane is now Agent Smith whether Bane was formerly a human or a program or a human in the 2nd level matrix.

I really find no support for subpoint 2. This is why: Agent Smith does the metallic liquid replication trick to Bane before picking up the phone and entering the 2nd level/reality. AGENT SMITH PICKS UP THE PHONE. HOW COULD BANE JUST SIMPLY BE CRAZY? WHAT WOULD THE SIGNIFICANCE OF CUTTING TO BANE IN THE FINAL SHOT BE THEN? It has been said before on this forum that one of the main themes in the movie is the conflict between Smith and Neo. Wouldn't the Smith in Bane scenario be the best to further this theme?


Whew, man, relax! I also support subpoint 1. Just being thorough.

quote:
Answer to E. from me: Where does the hacking come into play? Are you saying that he has a computer and hacked the sentinels so that he could perform the EMP shockwave trick just for sh*ts and giggles and put himself in a coma?

I'm not suggesting that he *planned* to put himself into a coma.

quote:
I don't think he would voluntarily write a program to put himself into a coma a try to fool Morpheus and Trinity. I will grant that he may have a new ability to communicate with the machines in reference to the "He is still human" banter that goes on throughout the movie, as if to foreshadow a transformation. Perhaps he is PART PROGRAM AND PART HUMAN. (This illuminates the reference to the catholic "trinity" that conceives of god as a unity between son, father, and holy spirit) Perhaps that is what you are trying to say or maybe I misunderstood you. Please respond PeolesDru
or someone else please shed some light on these scenarios.

I myself ascribe to the "Neo can stop the sentinels because the 'real' world is simply another construct" theory myself. But I think it's important to recognize that there are fairly credible explanations for his stopping them (and sensing them) outside of that theory - and so I present the idea that his implants could facilitate him "really" communicating with the machines in the "real" world.

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