filmfodder
Updated Whenever
Coming Soon: The Filmfodder Newsletter! Click Here to Sign Up for Free
   [ News ] [ Movies ] [ TV ] [ Forums ] [ About Us ]


  Filmfodder Forums
  Spotlight Discussion
  The Matrix 2 & 3 (Page 7)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search


This topic is 20 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
PeolesDru
Member
posted 05-20-2003 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PeolesDru     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In fact, I'll go a step further and suggest that Neo is not in a coma, he is simply not interacting with the real world at the present. He may have managed to jack into the matrix without the knitting needle in the back of the head doohickey.

IP: Logged

cheemor
Member
posted 05-20-2003 02:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cheemor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think we're all overcomplicating the issue. I'm definitely not saying it's simple, but some of the possibilities we've come up with are pretty out there! Everything in both Matrix movies has had some sort of Greek mythology or Christian reference, and the most logical possibility, by FAR, is that Neo is both man & machine, i.e Christ being both man and God. And Neo means "new", which is a reference to Christ being born, which begins the "new" testament of the Bible, which changed how everything was done. If they continue along these lines, it's possible that Neo was 'bred' from one of the original 'creators' of the machines, i.e. Christ being born of God, the 'creator', or something wack like that. That seems the most plausible explanation at this point. Feedback?

IP: Logged

the hoodedtraveler83
Member
posted 05-20-2003 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the hoodedtraveler83     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It seems to me that the "dual matrix" theory, although plausible, seems like a very overcomplicated way to explain a small part of the story (Neo stopping the sentinels). We all know that Smith said that something was somehow copied between Neo and himself, and that they can now sense each other. If this is the case, then Neo may now be a kind of half human/half machine, with abilities from both sides. If Smith is now able to take over a human mind in the Matrix and exist in the real world just as Neo is able to live in the real world, then wouldn't it be plausible that Neo is able to communicate with the machines in the real world, just as Smith was able to communicate with them in the Matrix.

I hope that made sense

IP: Logged

scarmouth
Member
posted 05-20-2003 02:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
-YEs I think trinty has plugs. how else can she get connected to the matrix?

Speaking of plugs, thought they pulled all the plugs out of coppertops removed from te Matrix.

Heck, I remember them pulling them out of NEO on MATRIX 1.

However, they all seem to have a bunch of them.

Then again, NEO was being fed though a plug in 1 so I suppose most but not all were removed...

Speaking plugs again, I volunteer to plug TRINITY.

IP: Logged

ebronte76
Member
posted 05-20-2003 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebronte76     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DoogsDC:
I didn't get that interpretation from that scene at all. The easiest explanation without overthinking that scene is that in fact, the whole multiple TV room is like a funhouse meant to disturb Neo and screw with him. All of the images on the screens are as has been said before, possible choices or options for him to respond to the architect's ramblings. The room is more of a visual effects eye candy thing than an actual integral part of the plot. The Neos on the screens are just PROGRAMS made by the architect to respond to Neo's and the Architect's actions.

I had the same interpretation that the images in monitors were the other "the ones" reactions to the architect when I was watching the movie. I don't necessarily think that now, but at the time it made sense because of the camera choosing a screen then moving THROUGH it to view Neo standing in the middle of the room with the architect again. This happened a couple of times.

This could have just been the Brothers using a visual that they thought looked cool, but we all know they have said they do not do anything for no reason.

The only other times they used that device was when they were transporting you from one place to another. Like in the first movie when they established the shot of Neo behind the table waiting for the Agents by showing the security monitor in another room. Then the camera moves through the monitor into the room with Neo and the agents.

That is why I thought they were moving us (the viewers) from one area or "reality" in the matrix to another area or "reality".

IP: Logged

loki
Member
posted 05-20-2003 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anyone explained why the machines added love to the equation?

If the Machines set all this up, why set him up to make the "wrong" choice? Why introduce love at all? why not give him the general choice reload the Matrix and carry on? Is there any benefit to the Machines Neo choosing the LEFT door? Do the machines just need an excuse to exterminate mankind?

IP: Logged

slyzer
Member
posted 05-20-2003 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My take on the end when Neo stops the sentinels was that the machines still need Neo to reset the matrix. Neo might not have powers that distroyed the Sentinals, the Sentinals just could not distroy Neo and thus when he stands his ground the Sentinals had to back down. Neo was so shocked by this that he passed out, his human brain could not concieve what had just happened. Feel free to disagree....

------------------

IP: Logged

Majmun
Member
posted 05-20-2003 03:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No one has answered my question yet...If the machines have destroyed Zion 5 times already, why are they digging again? There should already be a giant hole made from the first time they did it, much less 4 other times. There has to be 2 matrixes. Or would it be matrices?
And, what is the Animatrix?

[This message has been edited by Majmun (edited 05-20-2003).]

IP: Logged

bobo
Member
posted 05-20-2003 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bobo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
great posts, this has been a joy to read...

there's some answers (spoilers?) to be found in the matrix video game. here's a link to some of the information available.

again, these are SPOILERS!!! don't go to this link and read it if you're not absolutely sure you want to know what's going on...
http://forums.matrixfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7161

IP: Logged

cheemor
Member
posted 05-20-2003 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cheemor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are a few things that I am now completely certain of and these are:

1) None of us are going to figure out what is going to happen in Matrix: Revolutions.
2) The name is Revolutions, not Revolution, so there will be more than one 'Revolution', whatever it is.
3)We are all going to have to wait until November unless someone is able to sneak in Warner Bros. and steal a copy.
and
4) I have become a complete nerd for viewing, reading, and eventually posting on an internet chat board for a damn movie.

Have fun guys!!
See you in November!

IP: Logged

Majmun
Member
posted 05-20-2003 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
*hands cheemor a pocket protector*

IP: Logged

DoogsDC
Member
posted 05-20-2003 03:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Majmun:
No one has answered my question yet...If the machines have destroyed Zion 5 times already, why are they digging again? There should already be a giant hole made from the first time they did it, much less 4 other times. There has to be 2 matrixes. Or would it be matrices?
And, what is the Animatrix?


[This message has been edited by Majmun (edited 05-20-2003).]


Dude, good idea. I agree with you on this point. I think the Wachowskis have some major explaining to do. In the same format I have been using, I think here are some possible scenarios:
1. 2 Matrices, Zion is rebuilt in the program before the 23 people reenter.
2. New site. Zion = real world. The 23 people and "the One" find a new site and colonize it. Let it be known that I think ONE MEASLY CENTURY is definately not enough time to build this elaborate machine system in Zion from scratch and bore some giant hole without the knowledge of the machines.
3. Old site rebuilt by the 23 people. The matrix of course, knows where they are, but its all part of the reloading cycle. The "One" either completely lies to these people or the 23 people know and completely lie to their descendants.

I think 1 and 3 are the most plausible, but I am beginning to believe there is more proof to support number 3. The "2nd Level" matrix theory has holes, and even though I was a supporter originally, I don't think it can logically fulfill the many problems and holes that need to be answered in the third installment. I will elaborate later in great detail.

OH, and THE ANAMATRIX IS YET ANOTHER MARKETING TOOL. THEY MADE A BUNCH OF ANIMATED CLIPS AND PUT 4 OF THEM ON THE MATRIX WEBSITE FOR FREE. You have to buy some disc that has yet to be released until June to see them all. PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THE SECOND RENAISSANCE, THESE ARE IMPORTANT
You can download the movies or watch them with quicktime.

GOTO http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/ under (Mainframe -- ANIME) It's a little difficult to navigate but you'll figure it out!

IP: Logged

DoogsDC
Member
posted 05-20-2003 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slyzer:
My take on the end when Neo stops the sentinels was that the machines still need Neo to reset the matrix. Neo might not have powers that distroyed the Sentinals, the Sentinals just could not distroy Neo and thus when he stands his ground the Sentinals had to back down. Neo was so shocked by this that he passed out, his human brain could not concieve what had just happened. Feel free to disagree....


Man, but what about the EMP shockwave... Seriously, try to explain that.

I think we all need to apply Occam's Razor here. Occam's Razor: I found a paraphrase of it from "Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan--page 211: "This convenient rule-of-thumb urges us when faced with two hypotheses that explain the data equally well to choose the simpler."

Anyway, I think that the simplest explanation is that the EMP coming from his hand is derived from his own will, and not something extrinsic or outside of his own power. He saw his friends and himself in trouble and he did it to survive.

IP: Logged

loki
Member
posted 05-20-2003 04:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by slyzer:
My take on the end when Neo stops the sentinels was that the machines still need Neo to reset the matrix. Neo might not have powers that distroyed the Sentinals, the Sentinals just could not distroy Neo and thus when he stands his ground the Sentinals had to back down. Neo was so shocked by this that he passed out, his human brain could not concieve what had just happened. Feel free to disagree....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by DoogsDC:

Man, but what about the EMP shockwave... Seriously, try to explain that.

I think we all need to apply Occam's Razor here. Occam's Razor: I found a paraphrase of it from "Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan--page 211: "This convenient rule-of-thumb urges us when faced with two hypotheses that explain the data equally well to choose the simpler."

Anyway, I think that the simplest explanation is that the EMP coming from his hand is derived from his own will, and not something extrinsic or outside of his own power. He saw his friends and himself in trouble and he did it to survive.

-------------------------------

For what its worth. The EMP did not "come from his hand" as I saw it. THe Sentinal all blew up as if they were hit with an EMP but there was no wave or bolt or anything coming directly from Neos hand.

IP: Logged

DoogsDC
Member
posted 05-20-2003 04:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the hoodedtraveler83:
It seems to me that the "dual matrix" theory, although plausible, seems like a very overcomplicated way to explain a small part of the story (Neo stopping the sentinels). We all know that Smith said that something was somehow copied between Neo and himself, and that they can now sense each other. If this is the case, then Neo may now be a kind of half human/half machine, with abilities from both sides. If Smith is now able to take over a human mind in the Matrix and exist in the real world just as Neo is able to live in the real world, then wouldn't it be plausible that Neo is able to communicate with the machines in the real world, just as Smith was able to communicate with them in the Matrix.

I hope that made sense


I think this is the best thing to come out of anyones hands in a while, and better than some of the crap I've written. But you are still not addressing the fact that we SEE an EMP coming out of his hands!
Is this some form of communication? To me, the communication idea requires the visual manifestation of the EMP to be like a visual communication tool. This is really a weird implication of the communication idea. How would you explain the EMP without overcomplexifying this communication scenario?

IP: Logged

slyzer
Member
posted 05-20-2003 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just don't know about the dual matrix theory. If that is true then the movie could really never end because we would all just keep thinking they were in yet another matrix. I will be kinda disapointed if this all turns out to be a matrix in a matrix.

IP: Logged

Javajawa
Member
posted 05-20-2003 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Javajawa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Old site rebuilt by the 23 people. The matrix of course, knows where they are, but its all part of the reloading cycle. The "One" either completely lies to these people or the 23 people know and completely lie to their descendants.

I hope that comes through as a quote... Anyway hopefully this will be something just a little different and new.

The original 23 people seem to me to actually BE the council members. This explains why Neo even has the inclination to ask why all the members of the council are old. And further explains why they are so concerned with the happenings of "The One" making sure he makes it out of Zion to broadcast back into the Matrix (despite anyones understanding).

Also why can't there be more possibilities to how Neo "stopped" the sentinels? It's really all up for grabs but more scenarios include...

The mix between Neo and Smith allowed him to sense the machines. Ok...

Smith is all over the matrix now. There are more and more and more of him controlling more and more key places. (like the floor to the "source" or whatever) He has access to places that even Neo must havethe Keymaker to give him access to. So why couldn't Smith (or one of him) broadcast some signal to the sentinels killing them off before they kill Neo? The machines must be connected in some way kind of like a hive "borg" type connection and Smith just took advantage and terminated them somehow using a broadcast point from within the Matrix because he would obviously want to kill Neo himself.

Hope that much made sense... I'll try more when I get time.

IP: Logged

DoogsDC
Member
posted 05-20-2003 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK guys, I've been responding to some ideas, and making some of my own, but I think I'd like to incorporate some of these theories into some cohesive reading material.

There are about 5 major philosophical ideas the Wachowskis address in the series so far. Some are cliche and some are twists on philosophy that we've never seen.

1. Is the simulation like the original or is it the same thing? This is metaphysical in nature, and as I've said before, Simulacra and Simulation by Baudrillard is in the first movie. This is the best summary of this idea.
There are all types of simulations going on in the matrix, but the newest question is "Can a program or emulation of a human actually acquire human characteristics and for all intents and purposes be human?"

2. Understanding human nature. A bit cliche, but this is what the LOVE theme is all about. This theme probably pleases women in the audience, but man, if you're going to add the Love equation, at least show some naked cleavage for the men and not Keanu's ass!(LOL) If I wanted to see the F'ing love theme I'd go see "Down With Love" and not Reloaded. Take love out of Sci-Fi.

3. Prophecy and Religion. The Messianic complex. Many people have said the Matrix is Completely 100% some kind of endorsement of Christianity, and I think this is total hogwash. If anything, I think it's a critique on Christianity and Neo is an Antichrist.
Evidence:
A. The matrix is like Catholicism and Christianity. It imprisons people's minds. You shouldn't like the matrix if you're a bible-beater because the matrix is what religion is. Neo is against the system. Why the hell do you think they play RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE at the end of every movie? This is not Kum-by-ya Christian knee-slapping Creed-sounding BS.
B. Neo CHOOSES A WOMAN and not salvation of the human race. Christ chooses saving the human race and gives up his love for Mary Magdelene. (watch "The Last Temptation of Christ")
C. I'll buy Gnosticism... maybe... because it's radically different from modern Christianity. The Gnostic cults also did some pretty weird stuff and were consequently exterminated by the Catholic church for heresy.
D. God is like the Architect. Couldn't our entire world be governed by programs just like it is supposed to be governed by physical laws? (I'm an atheist by the way) Isn't that chilling? God in the view of the Zionists is anything but kind. Do we have free choice if God controls all physical laws and predetermines our course for us?

4. This leads me to Determinism. Determinism simply says our lives are governed by fate; (not necessarily by God), and we really don't have free choice. I believe in determinism. I think we live in a tight boundary of parameters. We think we have free choice but only to a certain extent. We have morality, law, and ultimately power to worry about. That doesn't even take into consideration all of the physical laws that we are unable to break in the real world. This is why the Matrix excites something inside us. This is why Reloaded is the top-grossing Rated R movie of all time. Some guy figures out how to break EVERY single one of these F'ing laws that are imposed on us by God and Man. I would love that ability, but perhaps ONE is chosen because the power is corrupting. ONE is cultivated and carefully guided so that his morality doesn't go haywire.

[B]ULTIMATELY[B], I think Revolutions will put a ranking system on each of these philosophical problems and the Wachowskis will tell us which one they think is most important. I pray to my non-god that the ultimate philosophy is either the simulation problem or determinism.

IP: Logged

DoogsDC
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Javajawa:

The original 23 people seem to me to actually BE the council members. This explains why Neo even has the inclination to ask why all the members of the council are old. And further explains why they are so concerned with the happenings of "The One" making sure he makes it out of Zion to broadcast back into the Matrix (despite anyones understanding).

How could the original 23 people be the council members if the current matrix is 100 years old? Once again, this idea is too complicated and requires to many additional links in the chain to make it true.

By the way, in addition to Occam's razor, consider this:
"Demon Haunted World" Sagan pg.211:
"If there's a chain of argument every link in the chain must work (including the premise)--not just most of them."

For your scenario to be correct, these must be true:
A. The council lies and deceives everyone. Including Neo. This makes them accomplices to the matrix. They are trying to facilitate a reloading cycle.
B. They are all over or around 120 years old. They would be 20 when they leave the 5th matrix and now 120. (I don't think they can look that good at 120 years old in a place where they eat mush and wear raggedy old clothes--their medical science, despite the acupuncture used to revive Neo in M1, is not THAT advanced)
C. They want Neo to go through with the prophecy because they know exactly what is going on.

D. Irregardless, all of the council members must have plugs and there must be 23 or around 23 unless some died off. (Do any of them have the plugs?) If they do, they might come from the previous matrix. I don't think they have the plugs though.

Finally, I think these three points are not valid. I think the council of 23 are descendants and some might not even be natural born Zionites. We really don't know anything about their government except that they're all old and they half-believe in the prophecy, half-believe they need defense.

NOTE: "(despite anyone's understanding)" is troubling. What does this mean?

IP: Logged

mrmup
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mrmup     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Which scenario is cheesier?
1. Neo is still within the matrix, he realizes this and is able to destroy the sentinels with his ability to manipulate the matrix.

2. Neo merges with Agent Smith which give himself the ability to generate EMP waves with no mechanical assistance.

I think Scenario 2 smells like velveeta. In the two movies, everything supernatural has occurred within the matrix. Everything outside the matrix has fallen within very believeable universal physics. Why would they violate that now?

IP: Logged

Majmun
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another question about the Matrix series...when an agent takes over a human's body, what happens to that human if the agent doesn't get killed? Eg., In the first Matrix, when they were chasing Neo through the city, the agents jumped from body to body while trying to catch him. Any ideas?

And, if an agent can take over a human body in the Matrix, can he wake up in the "Real World" while still in the human body, just like Agent Smith did, even though he'd be in a bath of liquid goo?

IP: Logged

slyzer
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just because I really do not like the matrix in a matrix theory I will throw out the fact that we as humans are only able to use 10% of our brains. Since Neo is obviously using more of his mental power in the matrix is it so hard to beleive he could use more of his brain power once outside the matrix? Could this result in him being able to manipulate his own bio-electricity in the form of an EMP and then the strain of this causes him to pass out. As always feel free to disagree......

IP: Logged

DoogsDC
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slyzer:
Just because I really do not like the matrix in a matrix theory I will throw out the fact that we as humans are only able to use 10% of our brains. Since Neo is obviously using more of his mental power in the matrix is it so hard to beleive he could use more of his brain power once outside the matrix? Could this result in him being able to manipulate his own bio-electricity in the form of an EMP and then the strain of this causes him to pass out. As always feel free to disagree......


Let me state this very clearly:

There is no scientific evidence to suggest that we use only 10% of our brains. This is a myth propagated by advertisements in pop culture. We use 100% of our brains throughout our lives but do not use all 100% at any one given point in time.

look at this for proof: http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

IP: Logged

loki
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
(From someone else)

A few things to consider in support of the Matrix within a Matrix Theory:

1) When Morpheus gave his speech, prior to the attack on the power plants and the storming of the MainFrame, he talked of fate and of the prophecy. Specifically, he mentioned that it was not coincidence that there were THREE captains present, with THREE ships. Without THREE teams, Neo would have not been able to enter the Mainframe and "fulfill the prophecy". But NONE of these ships were suppose to be there: Zion was under attack and the commander summoned ALL ships home... but the machines wished otherwise. But how would the Machines make sure that three teams would be there, to fufill the prophecy, unless they have some control in the "real" world? Which leads me to my second point:

2) The councilor's discussion with Neo was incredibly revealing. He spoke of a symbiosis between Man and Machine. He planted seeds in Neo's mind, to guide him in the future... just as the council guided TWO additional ships to aid Morpheus and Neo... without which, the "prophecy" would have never of been fulfilled. The councilors are most likely programs, spiritual guides... much like the Oracle is.

3) To my third point: Trinity. She was the third key piece of manipulation. Neo told her to stay out of the Matrix--but if she did, then she never would "die", and Neo's choice might have been different and the prophecy never fufilled. To ensure that she would be in the Matrix, the Sentinels attacked the ship that attacked the BACK-UP power plant. It wasn't a random attack... think about it. What would've happened if the Neb were attacked? Or if Niobe's ship was attacked? What if it was attacked 5 minutes before, or 5 minutes later? Then the plan would've failed, and the prophecy would’ve been unfulfilled. Coincidence? No... Providence.

4) My most important point: Neo's dream. Neo had his dreams of Trinity's death OUTSIDE THE MATRIX. If he's really only the "One", a "superman" inside the matrix and the prophecy is BS, then he should have no powers OUTSIDE the matrix. Forget the EMP from his fingers that killed the sentinels... the dream IS MUCH MORE REVEALING. By all reasoning, he should only have supernatural powers INSIDE the matrix... the only way he could possibly see the future in the "real" world is if it's NOT the real world.

Regardless if you like it or not, this is where the W. Bro's are going with the story. Don't get angry, because its decided--you've already made your choice: you will see Matrix Revolutions. Now, you just have to understand your choice.

IP: Logged

slyzer
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well I stand corrected, still don't like to matrix in a matrix idea, but it seems to be more and more likely

IP: Logged

Javajawa
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Javajawa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quote
------------------------------------------
For your scenario to be correct, these must be true:
A. The council lies and deceives everyone. Including Neo. This makes them accomplices to the matrix. They are trying to facilitate a reloading cycle.
B. They are all over or around 120 years old. They would be 20 when they leave the 5th matrix and now 120. (I don't think they can look that good at 120 years old in a place where they eat mush and wear raggedy old clothes--their medical science, despite the acupuncture used to revive Neo in M1, is not THAT advanced)
C. They want Neo to go through with the prophecy because they know exactly what is going on.

D. Irregardless, all of the council members must have plugs and there must be 23 or around 23 unless some died off. (Do any of them have the plugs?) If they do, they might come from the previous matrix. I don't think they have the plugs though.
-------------------------------------------
Ok… Directly from the movie the council member says himself that he doesn’t like to sleep because he slept the first 11 years of his life… meaning he was 11 when he was released from the Matrix. Although he turned around and I didn't see a plug in the back of his neck like you would believe there should be but hey the machines put them there and for the effect of illusion that he was a survivor or something I'm sure they could take them out.

Next... Why do they all have to be 20? Some could be older or younger that way they wouldn't all be soooo old. Older ones to do the work and young minds to cloud.

Third does it say that this the 6th Matrix is exactly 100 years old? From my recollections no one knows practically anything about time (when, where, etc.) just vague story lines.

And finally yes, if this theory was true they WOULD know what was about to happen and they would be giving up after all they made that choice to begin with because they or "The One" from the 5th iteration of the Matrix chose to follow what the machines said was inevitable and chose the left door.

Finally, I think these three points are not valid. I think the council of 23 are descendants and some might not even be natural born Zionites. We really don't know anything about their government except that they're all old and they half-believe in the prophecy, half-believe they need defense.

NOTE: "(despite anyone's understanding)" is troubling. What does this mean?

[/B][/QUOTE]

IP: Logged

Javajawa
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Javajawa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good post loki although I think the W. bros can basically throw in all sorts of stuff we wouldn't be expecting...

IP: Logged

Malrix
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DoogsDC:
How could the original 23 people be the council members if the current matrix is 100 years old?

Who or Where and when does it say that the current Matrix is 100 years old? Where did you get that?

IP: Logged

Malrix
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Although I think loki is the program designed to guide us in our argument, I will agree with his comment

IP: Logged

slyzer
Member
posted 05-20-2003 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No one knows how old the Matrix really is especially since everyone has been lied to so much. Morphious said they had been fighting for a century, but he only knows that because that is what he was told. Who told him this? No one knows......

IP: Logged

Malrix
Member
posted 05-20-2003 06:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The only way to find out the thruth is to wait until November for M3. By arguing about M3 we cannot accomplish anything. Just gonna have to wait.

On another note I think that rave / Neo-Trinity sex scine was really stupid, waaay too long, and unnesessary.

I hope that they will realize that and take it out of the DVD.

IP: Logged

Majmun
Member
posted 05-20-2003 06:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My sentiments exactly.

IP: Logged

loki
Member
posted 05-20-2003 06:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malrix:
The only way to find out the thruth is to wait until November for M3. By arguing about M3 we cannot accomplish anything. Just gonna have to wait.

On another note I think that rave / Neo-Trinity sex scine was really stupid, waaay too long, and unnesessary.

I hope that they will realize that and take it out of the DVD.


But if there is a son of Trinity/Neo who is actually the One who leads the people to the Real Real World, than the 4 minute long sex scene is VERY important. Obviously Trinity is going to be pregnant in the next movie, the question is whether that is the cheesy ending (i.e., life will go on despite all the people killed in the war/revolution) or will it be more twisted than that. (Note, the Oracle said "You are not the One, maybe in another life . . .")

------------------

IP: Logged

yajin
Member
posted 05-20-2003 06:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for yajin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey,
I jus saw the 2nd movie last week twice and have a few ideas I'd like to get out.

First off, I do not believe that Zion had been destroyed five times nor do I believe that Neo is a program (not implying that he is human either).
I do not think Zion has been destroyed as the machines are still having to work towards the city to destroy it. Also, in the first movie, agent Smith had captured Morpheus in order to learn the codes of the Zion mainframe. If the machines had created Zion in the first place, shouldn't they be able to simply blow it to bits if they wished to?
Also, I do not believe that Neo is a program as he would be under the control of the machines running it. If Neo was a program, how could he have a physical body exact to that he imagines himself as in the Matrix. Agent Smith enters the real world through that guy with the beard(forget his name) when he overwrites his data and probably his mind in the real world. Therefore, agent smith is in the real world and so he is the survivor from the 'accident' of the human counterattack on the machines. This may be a way for Neo to be a program in the real world, however, I highly doubt Agent Smith would be the bearded guy in the Matrix and neither would Neo.
Also, if this is all supposed to happen as according to the architect who states the oracle and others are all forms of control, along with the 23 others to rebuild Zion theory, then why is he wrong about something in the matrix. He states that Trinity will die no matter what happens, however, she does not, therefore, he must be lying.
So far, it seems as Morpheus put it, the machines are in a desperate attempt to save themselves from the revolution and the changing of the mainframe is one.
The war is too end when the one reaches the source, but Neo never reaches the source, so the war did not end. There are two takes, either the war will end when the Matrix is reloaded, or the war will end because the humans win....

I got lots more ideas, jus let me know wut you think bout these....i'll wright more later...

IP: Logged

Malrix
Member
posted 05-20-2003 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loki:
(Note, the Oracle said "You are not the One, maybe in another life . . .")

And if you also remember Neo DID DIE in the First Matrix, Smith killed him. The Oracle was right in saying that eather Neo or Morpheus is supposed to die. Neo was not the one, she said "...maybe in another life . . .", Smith killed him, he came alive again (if you ask me counts as another life).
Same thing with Trinity in the second one. Architect said "...she will die, and there is nothing you can do to stop it..." and she did die for a couple of minutes, but still counts as death.

But on the subject: I don't think that they should show the whole thing from the beginning to the end (whole 4 minutes ). General idea and a couple of seconds would have been enogh for me )

IP: Logged


This topic is 20 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20 

All times are ET (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | http://www.filmfodder.com

© Filmfodder.com. All Rights Reserved. Don't steal our stuff.

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.45c

Coming Soon: The Filmfodder Newsletter! Click Here to Sign Up for Free

Home | News | Movies | Forums | Newsletter | About Us

© 2000-2005, Filmfodder.com. All Rights Reserved. Don't steal our stuff.