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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
DoogsDC
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posted 05-20-2003 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malrix:
Who or Where and when does it say that the current Matrix is 100 years old? Where did you get that?

Morpheus or someone said the battle has been going on for a century. A century is 100 years.

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mrmup
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posted 05-20-2003 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mrmup     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malrix:
[B]
On another note I think that rave / Neo-Trinity sex scine was really stupid, waaay too long, and unnesessary.
B]

The sex scene may have cost them some mucho money. If they tamed that scene down a bit, they probably could have passed this with a PG-13 rating instead of R. More viewers, more money....break every box office record.

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-20-2003 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loki:
(From someone else)

A few things to consider in support of the Matrix within a Matrix Theory:

1,2,3

4) My most important point: Neo's dream. Neo had his dreams of Trinity's death OUTSIDE THE MATRIX. If he's really only the "One", a "superman" inside the matrix and the prophecy is BS, then he should have no powers OUTSIDE the matrix. Forget the EMP from his fingers that killed the sentinels... the dream IS MUCH MORE REVEALING. By all reasoning, he should only have supernatural powers INSIDE the matrix... the only way he could possibly see the future in the "real" world is if it's NOT the real world.

Regardless if you like it or not, this is where the W. Bro's are going with the story. Don't get angry, because its decided--you've already made your choice: you will see Matrix Revolutions. Now, you just have to understand your choice.


I'll address point 4 because you claim it to be most important and I actually think it's pretty good myself.

Let me break it down into several subpoints you make within this argument.

A. Neo has the dream outside "the matrix" and in the "real world".
Response: I grant this. This is obviously the case. Whether MatrixWithinMatrix or real world theory is true.

B. If he's really only the "One", a "superman" inside the matrix and the prophecy is BS, then he should have no powers OUTSIDE the matrix.
Response: He may claim the prophecy is BS in his discussion with Morpheus and Trinity, but this does not proove that there is not something extraordinary about him. If anything, the EMP disproves his own belief that the prophecy is false. He thought maybe less of himself before the coma. When he awakens, I think that he will reevaluate whether the prophecy was true or not.

C. Forget the EMP from his fingers that killed the sentinels... the dream IS MUCH MORE REVEALING. By all reasoning, he should only have supernatural powers INSIDE the matrix... the only way he could possibly see the future in the "real" world is if it's NOT the real world.
Response: PLEASE take a look at my argument about the philosophy of determinism in the matrix (It's from earlier today).
Determinism: Fate controls your actions and you are powerless. A narrow set of parameters and laws dictate what you can and cannot do and ultimately drives you towards your destiny.
At first we believe as though Neo has won the right to choose. He can break all of these laws within the matrix. In the real world, he is still just an average joe, which means he has no powers in the real world.
Here's the contradiction: Neo has to fulfill this prophecy. So while he wins the ability to break physical and human law, he is shackled to the destiny of fulfilling this prophecy.
I think it's blatantly obvious that determinism pervades every twist and turn in Reloaded. All the time we hear he's already made these choices before he does.
Isn't this in the least bit disconcerting to some of you? What if your parents or wife or husband or whoever told you that you were going to do this because you already chose to do that? That is a prison even more DISTURBING than the matrix itself. I would rather be under the illusion I had some choice than know that I had no choice at all.

My ultimate point: Let's just say that the "real world" really is real. Neo is not fulfilling these prophecies. Neo is CHOOSING. Perhaps he is winning the ability to make choices without any rules or regulations to tell him what the F to do. Besides, if all of these "seeds" are being planted (ie the council member), then how is he making decisions before he is faced with them?

The dream is interesting, I'll give you that. But it only plays into this idea of determinism. He thought trinity's death was predetermined. But wait, it wasn't.

He thought he had no abilities in the real world and he was going to fulfill the prophecy. But wait, is he really going to fulfill the prophecy to the machines' expectations?

THE TRUE TRIUMPH OF MANKIND IN THIS FILM IS THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE, NOT THE SALVATION OF THE HUMAN RACE. GIVE ME FREEDOM OR GIVE ME DEATH.

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ebronte76
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posted 05-20-2003 07:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebronte76     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mrmup:
The sex scene may have cost them some mucho money. If they tamed that scene down a bit, they probably could have passed this with a PG-13 rating instead of R. More viewers, more money....break every box office record.


Who said they were in it for money?

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larkface123
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posted 05-20-2003 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for larkface123     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For those of you who've seen the entirety of the Animatrix, you may remember a story close to the end (or at the end) of the series of stories that focuses on (as far as I interpret) bringing a machine to the side of the humans. They capture this machine in the real world and convert it so it will help them in the fight against the other machines. I dunno, I just thought that I'd point this out.

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Malrix
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posted 05-20-2003 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ebronte76:
Who said they were in it for money?

For what else? if it would not be for money then the ticket to the theatre would be around a dime.

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W33N
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posted 05-20-2003 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for W33N     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, I'm new here, but I've been reading your stuff, and first of all, Loki is the leetest man alive. Second of all, Malrix, you're smart, and you have called Loki out a couple times, but your last post saying they r in it for the money just makes me angry, The W Bros. are passionate nerds, they like the money, but I have a feeling they actually care about the story etc..etc..etc.. and now for my arguments, the only thing i can think of for the EMP deal is Neo being a program, and the Oracle saying you're not the one, well lemme think, yes Malrix, he did die and come back super, that is quite possibly it, quite possible, but, just a thought, SPOON KID. Now why did they bring that back....

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Casper314
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posted 05-20-2003 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malrix:
For what else? if it would not be for money then the ticket to the theatre would be around a dime.

How could you even think that this trilogy is about the money? The people who are making this movie (from the writers to the director to the sounds, FX, makeup, cinamatography, on and on and on....) are so clearly wonderful artists who are doing this for so much more than money. Yes, of course they're making money, but I think the best of them realize it as a means to an end. They need the studio to put up the cash and to market it so that we all knew to see it. To get the studio to do this, there has to be money to be made.

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W33N
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posted 05-20-2003 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for W33N     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh yeah, i almost forgot, lets just smile and wait for Revolutions when thinking of this, now that Neo knows he can somehow stop huge flying Giant Killer Robots, How much A$$ is he gonna kick in the next film??

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Casper314
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posted 05-20-2003 11:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malrix:
On another note I think that rave / Neo-Trinity sex scine was really stupid, waaay too long, and unnesessary.

Picky, picky, picky! I thought this scene was wonderful. The music was completely cool and the dancing was exciting. It made me care more about the people in Zion because I saw them having fun. I'm also concerned because of some of the off-line comments I've heard about this scene, such as that it seems like a bunch of animals out of control. I don't exactly know what would cause someone to make such a comment, but i'm afraid it may be racism. The inhabitants of Zion are decidedly darker-skinned and having fun dancing with eachother on the eve of an attack on their civilization. Oh, yes, that should be shorter! I'm not saying that this is what anyone on this board was thinking, I think we just need to look at why people don't seem to like this scene. And for the record, they better not cut this scene from the DVD!

Regarding the sex scene, I thought it was pretty cool to see some nekked man for once! After all, Neo is the lead, it just makes sense that we'd get to see his butt. Goes to my point that this movie is not about making money, it's about making art for adults. Disney's fine for my neice, but i'd like something that explores a more complex adult theme.

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Casper314
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posted 05-20-2003 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding the theory that the Council members are the original 23 founders of Zion: I have to agree on this one. Something about Neo's conversation with the Councillor made me immediatley think that the councillor was part of the machine world. Here's what they were:

  • Councillor trying to convince Neo that there was a symbiosis with the machines.

  • Neo's comment that there are no young people on the council.


  • This plus the fact that he stressed he had no point makes me suspicious. I don't know if they are programs in an MinM theory, or if they're the orignal founders, but there's something going on there.....

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    DoogsDC
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    posted 05-20-2003 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Casper314:
    Regarding the theory that the Council members are the original 23 founders of Zion: I have to agree on this one. Something about Neo's conversation with the Councillor made me immediatley think that the councillor was part of the machine world. Here's what they were:

  • Councillor trying to convince Neo that there was a symbiosis with the machines.

  • Neo's comment that there are no young people on the council.


  • This plus the fact that he stressed he had no point makes me suspicious. I don't know if they are programs in an MinM theory, or if they're the orignal founders, but there's something going on there.....

    I have to say I think I've been converted on this issue. We all have to ASSUME then that the alleged fact that the battle has been going on for a century is a total lie. Moreover, the council members know what is happening and are lying to everyone. It's an upsetting conspiracy, but I guess it'll have to do. I think your two points of evidence are too strong to draw any other conclusion from them.

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    Casper314
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    posted 05-20-2003 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Question: Did Neo mention the name of another ship just before the EMP thing? Is it possible that the EMP from Bane/Smith occurred nearby Neo and company? Maybe it just looked like he stopped the sentinals but he really didn't.


    I'd like to enter this in as a 3rd possibility of what happened there. (1 and 2 being he's supernatural or he's really still in a matrix)


    Until now, i've been a heaving MinM theory fan, which I like quite a bit. But my main "evidence" for it has been that Neo was able to stop the Sentinals with his bare hands (which I think shouldn't be possible in the real world).

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    W33N
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    posted 05-20-2003 11:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for W33N     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    OK, there can only be one way the Council members are the 23 memebers of Zion, they r programs, if they aren't programs, then they r in fact over 100, and judging by the sludge stuff they eat, I'm not thinking so. Old guy that like symbiosis idea is like yoda my friend, he is very wise and calm, and knows that machines r useful, just not when they fly around with long tentacle thingies and own humans. In other words:A.I. is not acceptable, like T2, but better cuz it is Matrix kung-fu schtyle

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    W33N
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    posted 05-20-2003 11:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for W33N     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Casper, I'm calling out your "third choice" thing for neo stopping the snetinels. I am under the impression Niobe's ship had Smith(in the real world body guy) since the attack on Zion, and that he has been in a coma since then. I'm not sure if this was exactly stated with these words exactly virbatim, but when Neo "felt the sentinels" he turned and placed his hand up in defiance pretty much knowing that he was about to show them his skreelz. he knew he>them.

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    Casper314
    Member
    posted 05-20-2003 11:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Too many theories and too many possibilities

    I think there's actually several viable possibilites of how this story will conclude, and we clearly have not been given enough information to allow us to say with certainty what that conclusion will be.
    BUT, what I think we can, and should do, is continue to develope these several different (and mutually exclusive) "conclusions" so that when we finally get to see Revolusions we will be able to understand it.


    People who are not discussing this movie as we are, are clearly not understanding it. Most of the casual viewers I spoke with about the movie are so lost. I've seen the movie only twice, and I say "only" as a person that has never gone to a movie twice on it's opening weekend. This film is deep like a thick book. As we've seen it takes time to understand even what we saw on the screen right in front of us. I'm sure I'll need to see it several more times before I can really get my mind around it.


    I'd also like to ask that we have a greater understanding for those people, myself included, who will require several viewings to actually see everything that flashes in front of their eyes. For this movie to be a sucess (which I really want), we need to help each other understand it.


    Lastly, everyone should go back and re-read all of DoogsDC's posts. It's all good.

    [This message has been edited by Casper314 (edited 05-20-2003).]

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    findlestick
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    posted 05-20-2003 11:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for findlestick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Architect & Neo
    The Architect - Hello, Neo.

    Neo - Who are you?

    The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I ve been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

    Neo - Why am I here?

    The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

    Neo - You haven't answered my question.

    The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

    *The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*
    (I dont agree with whoever wrote this, I think that the monitors are showing Neo's possible answers, possible hinting that there are alternatives to his actions (and hence the choice issue comes up). Also, the camera zooms in on Neo's current response, showing the choice made.)

    The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

    *Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****."*

    Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

    The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

    *Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! **** you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

    Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

    *The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room*

    The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

    Neo - The Oracle.

    The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

    Neo - This is about Zion.

    The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

    Neo - Bull****.

    *The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bull****!"*

    The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

    *Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

    The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

    Neo - You won't let it happen, you can t. You need human beings to survive.

    The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

    *The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

    The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

    *Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the monitors*

    Neo - Trinity.

    The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

    Neo - No!

    The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

    *Neo walks to the door on his left*

    The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

    Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

    The Architect - We won't.

    I have not altered it in any way.

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    W33N
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    posted 05-20-2003 11:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for W33N     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Thankz FiddleSchtick. I was really hoping for a strong opinion at the end of ur quotation, or at least i was hoping for u to capitalize words that u thought we should listen to. For example:

    Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.

    Neo: What truth?

    Spoon boy: There is no spoon.

    Neo: There is no spoon?

    Spoon boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.


    Now, WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS MEAN, you guys remember when he got the spoon? wait, first of all, who gave him the spoon in reloaded? i seriously dont remember, and I have been thinking about this quote, does it mean that the sentinels didnt stop on their own?? they didnt stop at all??? neo stopped???(lol, neo shure looks stopped final shot) neo stopped them? or does the spoon kid quote have nothing to do with anything and the kid was actually just a bent stoner buddhist pimpzta?

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    DoogsDC
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    posted 05-20-2003 11:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by findlestick:
    Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

    Seriously guys. If we want to get any deeper than camera angles and visual effects we have got to look at a little elementary philosophy. Choice is related to free will. FREE WILL IS THE OPPOSITE OF DETERMINISM.

    I don't want to drive a nail into anyone's brain, but the point of the movie is to make us think about this type of stuff and not JUST the plot. I'll try to find some sites you can reference so you don't have to read a book. Some people probably have better things to do (like sex). LOL

    Am I just speaking nonsense here or does anyone think that we can elucidate possible plot twists by trying to understand the philosophy of the matrix? I just think we could all really grasp something more meaningful to our real life and get closer to the meaning of the matrix by trying to understand what the PURPOSE of the film is and not what is going to mystify and tease the 99% of imbeciles in the population that watch this movie.

    WE ARE THE 1% BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT. EVERYONE ELSE JUST WANTS THRILLS, CHILLS, AND EYE CANDY. MUCH LIKE THE MORONS IN THE MATRIX.

    Thanks to Casper by the way. Shout out to Casper, your stuff is good too.

    [This message has been edited by DoogsDC (edited 05-20-2003).]

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    findlestick
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    posted 05-21-2003 12:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for findlestick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    I Believe that, the whole , "do not try and bend the spoon" thing, is saying to Neo that everything is an illusion including the spoon,and to be able to change anything, he must first change himself or his consciousness. So to not be bound by the limitations that the illusion imposes on him, but to change the way he sees the spoon, or the world for that matter. To see beyond the illusion.And therefore being able to free his mind by realising that he/you can really change the world by changing the way you see it and think about it.

    [This message has been edited by findlestick (edited 05-21-2003).]

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    DoogsDC
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    posted 05-21-2003 12:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Dudes, I think the spoon in reloaded is just a gift. Zion has primitive utensils, hence the ragged appearance of the spoon. Once again, with reference to the point of the spoon in M1: We have physical and mental limitations on our ability to do things in the real world. WE BEND because we bend our mental limitations. This is something we could probably do in the real world. Support? Remember the fight between Neo and Morpheus in M1. That whole scene is about overcoming mental limitations. I highly doubt anything about the spoon has anything to do with or support the MinM theory. There are many other more convincing arguments for MinM.

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    DoogsDC
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    posted 05-21-2003 12:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Man, I'd just like to say this forum is amazing. I can't believe we could all watch the same movie and come up with completely different perceptions of the meaning. This is a very good experience to realize that your perceptions are probably vastly different from others on many, many other topics or events in the real world. Just take part of your day to try to look at all of the different ways to view some event that the people around you perceive with only one scenario. Man, I feel like I'm losing myself in this discussion. I don't know what reality is anymore, but it feels strangely good.

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    Casper314
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    posted 05-21-2003 12:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Assuming the Matrix in a Matrix theory, what does that mean the EMP really is? You could assume that it will affect only machines (which are actually just programs). But then why doesn't it affect all programs, which is actually everything since this is happening within a Matrix?


    Does an EMP only affect machines as defined in the Zion level? And if so, maybe Neo was affected by the EMP.

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    T-Ztar
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    posted 05-21-2003 12:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for T-Ztar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by DoogsDC:
    I have to say I think I've been converted on this issue. We all have to ASSUME then that the alleged fact that the battle has been going on for a century is a total lie. Moreover, the council members know what is happening and are lying to everyone. It's an upsetting conspiracy, but I guess it'll have to do. I think your two points of evidence are too strong to draw any other conclusion from them.


    I was playing Enter the Matrix on X-box last night, which contains an hour of unseen real movie footage, and is said to be an essential part of the Matrix experience just like the Animatrix, the game is actually directed by the same brothers as the film.

    After I kicked an agents ass out the back of a cargo plane and then escaped a Filmed cut scene came on that had Niobe at a phone booth in the subway about to escape when this crazy old homeless person maybe around 60-70 (same age as the council) comes up and tells her he is just a spectator and he was around when Zion fell the last time, and that it took 75hrs, and then it just cuts to the meeting at the start of the movie between all the captains in the sewer. I think this ties in very well with this current line of thinking.

    Just some extra food for thought from actual movie footage………


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    findlestick
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    posted 05-21-2003 02:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for findlestick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    DoogsDC,
    That would be a good idea for a movie scene, have various characters in the same scenario, and then show the different interpretations of each character. Showing completely different conclusions to the same event. Its like we all live in the same planet but in our minds we ALL are in different worlds, which you can change by changing your thinking. Makes you think what the real nature of things really are without a mind interprating them.

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    OzDick
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    posted 05-21-2003 05:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for OzDick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    I think all the fun in this movie comes in trying to analyse it

    Ok - some thoughts, collated from others on the net and my own ideas

    **SPOILERS**
    Turn away now !!

    1) The "real world" of Zion is actually another "Matrix" - a fail safe to the original matrix
    2) Reasons for this are
    a) Neo's dream of Trinity falling and being shot. Since this happened inside
    the Matrix, how could he have dreamed that in the real world unless he was still inside that world?
    b) At the end of the film, Neo could sense the Sentinels and was able to stop them - not possible in real life, so only explanation is that he is coming to realise that he is still inside the "Matrix" world
    c) The Sentinels / Machines know about Zion and the human inhabitants. If they are so keen on destroying them, how does it make sense that they release them from the matrix and flush them down the drain? Much easier to
    knock em off then and there and feed their nutrients back to the others still locked inside the matrix
    3) The Red candy that the Oracle gives to Neo, is in many ways the same as the "Red Pill" he took in the first Matix
    4) We see that anything ingested inside the Matrix has the ability to "re-program" the individual who eats it. This is quite evident when the French guy gives the pretty woman a cake, which in turn causes sexual arousal in her. It's like new code that alters the behaviour of the individual
    5) The Oracle talks about rogue programs - we're led to believe she's in partnership with the Architect to help keep the wool pulled over everyone's eyes. But perhaps she is one of these rogues, who has changed her ability for what she was originally programmed, because
    a) She really is an Oracle and knows that Neo is the "one" to rescue them all
    b) She feeds him the red candy (ie new program), so that when he's back in the real world, he begins to suspect otherwise
    c) He makes a different choice to what the Architect expected, in that he saves Trinity, rather than saving the world (perhaps again, because of the red candy)
    6) The Architect talks about saving 16 people to rebuild Zion. The council of Zion is made up of what looks like, 16 people - we also here the question "Why is the council not made up of any younger people". Perhaps because they are the original 16 to rebuild Zion from the previous time.
    7) We had to see Agent Smith portrayed this way in the movie, because he is becoming a "virus". He also helps to prove that the "real world" is still part of the Matrix, by infecting one of the inhabitants of Zion, by downloading himself over the phone.

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    OzDick
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    posted 05-21-2003 07:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for OzDick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Whoops - I meant 23 below where I said 16 (just getting confused between 16 females, 7 guys thing)

    One other thing, the Architect talks about an anomoly being created - you need a mother and a father to create something (The Architect and The Oracle?)
    So could Neo be their son?
    If so, maybe because the Oracle has been studying human nature, she has feelings for her son (which the Architect doesn't) and so wants him to live, which would add some weight behind what I said below, about her feeding Neo the Red Candy (Pill) to help enlighten him to his true purpose?

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    W33N
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    posted 05-21-2003 09:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for W33N     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Thanks OZdick for making me barf, Oracle and the Architect....uggghh, and they r both programs... which leads me to think that if u r correct (if so the theatres are gonna have a major vomit problem after the film) then Neo himself is a program. The red candy, eh, maybe. O btw, Oracle is a rogue program, they say it, she is by herself now, well, except for that bruce lee dood. Ok i just wanna say something, After seeing the Matrix, pretend we knew that they were going to make a sequel 6 months after it. Would anyone, ANYONE have guessed that the matrix is actually the 6th version??? ANYONE?? How close do u think we r to the revolutuions plot? so far, I think we aren't complicated enough.

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    Casper314
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    posted 05-21-2003 09:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    WHEN POSTING ABOUT THE GAME...

    PLEASE IDENTIFY IT AS A SPOILER


    I'm sure the game has detail that I want to experience myself for the 1st time.

    Thanks

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    slyzer
    Member
    posted 05-21-2003 10:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    well it has been a while since I posted, so for those of you who do not know.....I REALLY do not like Matrix in a Matrix theory. So I have a quick question, Neo has never needed anything visable to stop anything before. When bullets are flying at him he just hold up his had and stops them, no energy or EMP or other type of force is shown. So why does he generate a visable EMP to stop the sentinals? If he is still in the Matrix he should be able to stop the sentinals just as he does the bullets.

    Also on the topic of Trinity being pregnant....it seems to me that everyone's name can be applied to the charactor except Trinity. So far I have not heard any ideas about her name. Could it be a refernce to the 3 personalities of a woman? Lover, Fighter, and Mother?

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    scarmouth
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    posted 05-21-2003 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by slyzer:
    So why does he generate a visable EMP to stop the sentinals?

    Who says it's EMP? Why does it have to be?

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    slyzer
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    posted 05-21-2003 10:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    whatever it was the point is we could see some form of energy where as in the past when he stopped bullets no energy was visable

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    Javajawa
    Member
    posted 05-21-2003 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Javajawa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Does Neo really produce an EMP? Is there that wave effect emitted from his hand like in the end of M1 when the Neb emits the EMP? I just recall that the machines froze suddenly and sparked, kinda putting on a big light show but I don't know if it was by necessity an EMP...
    Also there will have to be some discussion on Neo being "superhero like" meaning that even if it ends up super cheese or not Neo did say that he could "sense" the sentinels and something more important has to be happening than Zion being in just a simple truely 100% genuine world.
    So..
    (1) Zion is in a second matrix?
    (2) Neo ends up a superman (the ultimate cheese factor) and/or machine?
    (3) Other factors got involved and it just put on a show like Neo stopped them himself.

    Other possibilities could happen of course but these seem general enough to encompass most of it... But only 1 and 2 seem like the only choices that could possibly unfold to Neo losing consciousness. Along with the hitchhiker or "virus Agent Smith" in Cyphers' body. Which thinking about both of them going unconscious right after meeting with sentinels there has to be some tie. The movie ends all omniously showing the two of them across from each other unconcious. What is the tie? The movie talked a lot about them exchanging parts of their code but to what extent?

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    slyzer
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    posted 05-21-2003 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    I still stand by my theory that the machines still need Neo to reset the Matrix and that is why the sentinals blew up. Then Neo's proximity to this caused him to pass out. He did not destroy the machines but merely appeared to distroy them. He could sence the machines desire to keep him alive and that is why he stood up to them.

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    no. 47
    Member
    posted 05-21-2003 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by McAodh:

    The images in the background of Neo with the Architect are all of the possible choices he could make.


    For any action there is nth number of reactions (not from the movie - but from quantum mechanics)

    You refer to "why" because it is the control.


    You could easily predict the choice. He either goes to the door on the left, the door on the right, or he stays in the room.

    When you start looking at the "why" you begin to back trace all of the results that led up to it.


    for B) then if the images in the background
    are all the possible choices Neo can
    make then what happens after leaving the door is the nth number of reactions that could possibly happen, then why is the choice of trinty being saved shown?...

    for the why/control:
    from my interpretation of the movie, the why/control is to maintain/secure a symbiotic relationship between man and machine, then what else would be the purposes of the One, or the Oracle, or the Architect, or the Keymaker or any other program for that matter if they were all possibly made or have a certain dependency with the Source…w/c disturbingly contradicts Neo being a Program since he chooses trinity over the Salvation of Zion on the 6th time.

    -Mcaodh had posted a very convincing idea of his on how Neo maybe a program, thus strengthening the theory that Neo can be the same entity at six different time. Check his post...but, my question to him is after downloading all Neo's knowledge, after rebuilding Zion for the nth time, into the main frame resulting into evolution of the Architect again so that he may built a more flawless nth matrix, then why would a program choose trinity over saving Zion on the 6th time if after all he is a program?


    [This message has been edited by no. 47 (edited 05-21-2003).]

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