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Author Topic:   The Matrix 2 & 3
scarmouth
Member
posted 05-21-2003 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
...if after all he is a program?

he is a program...just a program...

My code rebukes your insensitivity.
My code is alive and performs with the same loving care of which I imbue it.

pfff to u!

[This message has been edited by scarmouth (edited 05-21-2003).]

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no. 47
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posted 05-21-2003 12:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for no. 47     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scarmouth:
he is a program...just a program...

My code rebukes your insensitivity.
My code is alive and performs with the same loving care of which I imbue it.

pfff to u!

[This message has been edited by scarmouth (edited 05-21-2003).]


huh? Is that from the movie?

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mrmup
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posted 05-21-2003 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mrmup     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Concerning Neo's conversation with the Architect, here is a possible premise. The monitors in the background are not showing ALL possible choices of Neo's responses...just the ones that are running through his mind at the moment. So why do they all show him choosing the left door at the end? Because his feelings for Trinity are so strong that, for him, there can be no other choice.

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kruton
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posted 05-21-2003 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kruton     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok folks, gather round. I'm going to address 2 of the more important topics swirling around here:

1. Nested matrix theory

2. Is Neo human or program?

1. There are 2 primary reason why I don't buy into the dual matrix theory. The weaker arguement, which has already been covered here, is that a double-matrix theory is too cliche. Yes, it seems like a neat idea at first, and it makes everyone feel clever when they first think of it, but its been done before--a lot. It's as much a deus-ex-machina as any movie where people wake up from a dream at the end. I really think the W bros are beyond something that average.

The second and more compelling reason goes as follows: If the whole Zion world is really just another matrix designed to contain the 1% who don't accept the 1999 matrix, then how do they (the 1%) represent any threat to the machines? If they are still lying in a pod somewhere generating energy, why the need for the complicated 'the one returning to the source in order to reload the matrix' paradigm?

The architect said "While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster." But if everyone in Zion is still trapped in a matrix, I don't see how they can cause disaster. Someone will suggest that maybe the people in Zion can somehow disrupt the 99% matrix--I find this too vague & unlikely, but if it is somehow true, why couldn't the machines just flush all the people in the 1% matrix?

So, if Zion really is the real world, then the big question remains, how did Neo stop the sentinels. This leads to question #2.

2. The nature of Neo

Many people think Neo may be another program, while others think he is human. I think Cheezor & DoogsDC have danced around the truth. Neo is both fully human and fully program. Go back and think about the architect's first response:

"I am the Architect. I created the Matrix I've been waiting for you.
You have many questions, and though the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human ergo some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not."

I'm suprised no one is asking what "the process" is. Whatever the process did, Neo is still 'irrevocably human', which leads me to believe 'the process' was somehow melding Neo with the matrix / making him a program. Check the link earlier in this thread about spoilers from the 'Enter the Matrix' game--it has some information on this (beware, it does contain spoilers).

All of the previous Ones chose to return to the matrix during the destruction of Zion in order to repopulate the real world. I'm not sure whether they lived out their lives in the real world freeing people from the Matrix, freed the 23 and died, still exist in the Matrix, or something else. But I think Neo is the first One to return to the real world with the knowledge (perhaps only subconciously) that he is man and machine. That is how he stopped the sentinels, IMO.

I still have many other questions, but I'd love to hear what others think about these theories.

A sidenote to DoogsDC, et al--it appears the Christians may not have a monopoly on hypocrisy after all. Don't get upset that people find parallels in the Matrix to Christianity, Buddhism, Love, Determinism, and other ideas that you may or may not agree with or like. Everyone is free to see what they want to see, and I think that might be one of the W bros intentions.

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Casper314
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posted 05-21-2003 12:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slyzer:
Neo has never needed anything visable to stop anything before. When bullets are flying at him he just hold up his had and stops them, no energy or EMP or other type of force is shown. So why does he generate a visable EMP to stop the sentinals? If he is still in the Matrix he should be able to stop the sentinals just as he does the bullets.

An EMP within a matrix is really just some code that affects certain programs. But to implement the EMP, it has to happen just like we think an EMP would happen. It's coded, and therefore couldn't happen any other way. It's a world of rules, some of which can be bent, others that can be broken.

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Casper314
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posted 05-21-2003 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But, if Neo didn't cause the EMP (i.e., it happened nearby) and Neo is just a "machine" (or program if you will), maybe the reason both of them are knocked out was becuase they too were affected by the EMP. After all, they're both evolved from the "Matrix" world and would therefore be susseptable to an EMP.

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Malrix
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posted 05-21-2003 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malrix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kruton:
... why couldn't the machines just flush all the people in the 1% matrix?

Why would they flush perfectly good source of power?

I'm sure it takes some resources for them to grow each and every human.

I don't think that they would just destroy it just because it(human) suspects that it is not "free". For that 1% who want to rebel and fight for their freedom "2-nd Level of Matrix" was created, witch gives them exactly what they want - war with machines and hope for the victory.

That way 1% is still a source of power for machenes.

I agree with you on your "Neo theory".

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Casper314
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posted 05-21-2003 12:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kruton:
Ok folks, gather round. I'm going to address 2 of the more important topics swirling around here:

1. Nested matrix theory

2. Is Neo human or program?



Both of these are the same theory. For Neo to be anything but human, there must be a matrix in a matrix.

quote:

The weaker arguement, which has already been covered here, is that a double-matrix theory is too cliche.

I disagree. This isn't a reason against the possibility of a Matrix in a Matrix, it's just a feeling about the writers. Besides, how else will human kind overcome the machines if the machines don't implement silly cliche's?

quote:

The second and more compelling reason goes as follows: If the whole Zion world is really just another matrix designed to contain the 1% who don't accept the 1999 matrix, then how do they (the 1%) represent any threat to the machines? If they are still lying in a pod somewhere generating energy, why the need for the complicated 'the one returning to the source in order to reload the matrix' paradigm?

The architect said "While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster." But if everyone in Zion is still trapped in a matrix, I don't see how they can cause disaster.



You're confusing things here. If the Matrix in a Matrix theory is true, then the solution the archtect speaks of has ALREADY been implemented to keep this escalating probability of disaster in check. Why bother? It makes the power plan 1% more productive.

quote:

Someone will suggest that maybe the people in Zion can somehow disrupt the 99% matrix--I find this too vague & unlikely, but if it is somehow true, why couldn't the machines just flush all the people in the 1% matrix?


Yes, they will flush the 1%, but only when it becomes absolutly necessary, but not before. When they know it's necessary, the Oracle sends Neo to the Source to do the reloading.
quote:

I'm suprised no one is asking what "the process" is.


This is an excellent point. What is "the process"? Could it be this revolution of the 6th iteration of the Matrix? Or is it the QA debugging process of creating the most human like program (i.e., the invention of A.I.) Does it all come back to the machine in War Games learning how to play tic-tac-toe?

quote:

But I think Neo is the first One to return to the real world ...


Agreed - they've finally created a program that could love....

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slyzer
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posted 05-21-2003 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the fundamental problem with the Matrix in a Matrix theory is still that we can never be sure if they are ever in the real world or not. The movie will never be able to come to a full conclusion because if they are just in another matrix that they then wake from who is to say that wont be another Matrix. I just don't think the W. Bros. will want that kind of problem introduced, there just has to be another solution. I geuss we wont really know until Nov. though.....

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Casper314
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posted 05-21-2003 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slyzer:
the fundamental problem with the Matrix in a Matrix theory is still that we can never be sure if they are ever in the real world or not. The movie will never be able to come to a full conclusion because if they are just in another matrix that they then wake from who is to say that wont be another Matrix. I just don't think the W. Bros. will want that kind of problem introduced, there just has to be another solution. I geuss we wont really know until Nov. though.....

At first I agreed with you, but now I'm beginning to think that this is exactly what they intended. After the 1st movie, you might have thought "Wow, so the world I know might not actually be the real world" After this movie you might now be thinking "Wow, not only isn't this world the real world, but I have no way of telling what the real world is!" After all, what *is* real?

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J420
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posted 05-21-2003 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for J420     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The second Matrix movie was good because it addressed an important aspect of any "reality". That aspect is, to me, the "wild cards" in any society. They do good, they do bad - but above all they don't do what the vast majority does, live pre-fabricated exsistences. Of course you need an opposite to everything, for anything to remain. It's like the Devil is Gods best friend, he's kept the pews full for all these years, hence the tithings remain!

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slyzer
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posted 05-21-2003 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Casper you do have a good point and since the movie is more than just a generic peice of Hollywood crap and is ment to be a philosophical (sorry I am a very bad speller) experience I might be able to deal with the Matrix in a Matrix. It may hurt the overall story a little but the point is to make us question our own ideas of reallity. That does it, you may have made a convert out of me!

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the hoodedtraveler83
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posted 05-21-2003 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the hoodedtraveler83     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It definately is not just another piece of hollywood crap BUT it is still a movie. Do the brothers really want us coming out of the third movie going "Were any of those movies real or am I just wasting my time?" There needs to be a conclusion somewhere and with the multiple matrices theory there cannot be one.

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W33N
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posted 05-21-2003 02:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for W33N     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I luv how u guys just ignore everything i say. Ok, I think i can safely say the matrix within matrix theory is our strongest and most argued about theory. Correct? So, It surely must also be the farthest from the actual truth. The W. Bros are gonna throw us for a loop.

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the hoodedtraveler83
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posted 05-21-2003 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the hoodedtraveler83     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by W33N:
Ok, I think i can safely say the matrix within matrix theory is our strongest and most argued about theory. Correct? So, It surely must also be the farthest from the actual truth. The W. Bros are gonna throw us for a loop.

Agreed

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nupe494
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posted 05-21-2003 02:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nupe494     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think one can assume there will be no finality in the movie simply because there is a matrix within the matrix. Perhaps there is some loop that the W brothers will throw us based on that. Personally, I don't like the idea of Neo being in the real world and some how being wireless connected to the machines. It sounds corny and very unoriginal. Yes, I know this MinM theory has been done before but I belive it leaves a lot to the imigination and follows the philosphical story line of "what is real".

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mrmup
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posted 05-21-2003 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mrmup     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program."

What does this mean? I think it means he's a program that was sent to interact with the anomolies out there, the 1%, and learn as much from them as he can. Then he's suppose to come back to the source to give feedback so that the source can "fine-tune" the matrix to accomodate for the 1%. Then he's sent back out there to do it all over again.
The 1% is then destroyed with the exception of 23 people who are allowed to think they are free. These 23 attempt to "free others", but are basically just helping the matrix identify and cull the ones who are rejecting the new verstion of the matrix.

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noiz
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posted 05-21-2003 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for noiz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did anyone notice that Neo didn't have a plug in the back of his head when he first reached Zion? Perhaps this was an intentional mistake to clue us in to Zion also being in the virtual world. If that is true, then everyone is still hooked up to the grid, they just think that they were released.

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reload me
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posted 05-21-2003 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for reload me     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Theory on The Matrix
The Matrix is basically like a computer in that it has a hard drive and an operating system. Neo is a very good program put on the hard drive as is Agent Smith, Trinity, and Morpheus. Neo is like an anti-virus on a computer and the program (Neo) has learned (been coded) how to enter Zion (the operating system – or registry and system files) to prevent the virus from attacking the operating system too not just prevent the virus from attacking the operating system. Agent Smith a virus (also a program) has learned (been coded) to enter the operating system to corrupt it too not just programs on the hard drive. So Smith and the sentinels (different OSI level of virus than Smith) are going to try to destroy the operating system (Zion) and cause a blue screen of death which permanently kills the operating system, however when Neo is meeting with the architect he has the option to simply reboot which restarts the matrix until it becomes infected again, which is what the previous “Neo’s” have done.

The Characters
People in the Matrix that are just bystanders in the world as we know it on Earth are just text files, not programs like Neo, Trinity, Agent Smith, and Morpheus. People of Zion that are not connected to the Matrix are just operating system files. The Ghost twins could be somewhat like a virus hoax, which is why they cannot be destroyed. Trinity and Morpheus and all of the other Nebuchadnezzar buddies are like old anti-virus programs or code that could not quite destroy the viruses in the past. The Nebuchadnezzar is like a protocol to transfer data. The pill and the candy given to Neo by the Oracle in the first and second movies respectively are just the uploading of the new code. Another pretty good indication that Agent Smith is a virus is by his ability to replicate himself by infecting other programs easily except it is not so easy to infect Neo, Morpheus or any of the anti-virus programs.

Support for my Case
In the original movie, Agent Smith might have given away a pretty good hint about the movie when Morpheus was “infecting” Agent Smith and he said that Morpheus was like a “virus”. The Oracle and the Architect are the programming code that tells the virus and anti-virus programs what to do, which is written by the programmer in the actual “Real World” that we have not seen, at least yet???


My predictions for Revolution
Neo goes back into the Matrix to meet with The Oracle (program code) to get updated code (maybe could be correlated with DAT files for anti-virus software) from the programmer (yet to be seen). Neo is slowly gaining knowledge (code) to be able to destroy the viruses (Agent Smith and Sentinels) in the operating system (Zion) as evidenced by the EMP that Neo emitted at the end of Reloaded. In the end, Neo will succeed in defeating all of the viruses and saving all of humanity (prevent total system crash). I doubt we will ever get to see the real world in this series. The entire trilogy will be entirely about a computer, a virus, and an anti-virus program.

Let me know what you think. Sorry for the scatterbrained post.

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slyzer
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posted 05-21-2003 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, well I will say right now I have only seen the movie once, I wanted to gain some insight before I saw it again so I could see what to pay attention to when I did see it again. I am still a little confused as to why everyone will die who is conected to the Matrix. Neo chose to go back and save Trinity, so what did that do that will cause everone conected to the Matrix to die? Maybe I am just missing something really simple or not thinking enough.

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mrmup
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posted 05-21-2003 04:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mrmup     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WOW. Someone posted this link earlier in the thread, but I never got around to reading it till now. This dude's review nails a lot of what we've been talking about right on the head!
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

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Majmun
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posted 05-21-2003 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Majmun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by noiz:
Did anyone notice that Neo didn't have a plug in the back of his head when he first reached Zion? Perhaps this was an intentional mistake to clue us in to Zion also being in the virtual world. If that is true, then everyone is still hooked up to the grid, they just think that they were released.

He did have a plug, it was just hard to see with his dark hair.
There are a lot of interesting suggestions and theories out there. I wonder if the W brothers read these forums and set back and laugh at us.
Anyways, I have a question, which I've already asked, for all of you who believe there is only one Matrix: If the machines have already destroyed Zion 5 times, why then do they have to dig down to the center of the earth again, if they've already done it 5 times? There should already be a gigantic hole made from the first time it was done. The architect said they had become quite efficient at destroying Zion. So, to me the only explanation is that there are 2 matrixes, and the "real world" matrix is re-set when the One makes the right decision, which reloads the program. That way, the hole no longer exists and has to be dug out again.

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slyzer
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posted 05-21-2003 04:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for slyzer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The way I see it is holes can be refilled by magma and earthquakes etc. and if there were any holes left then the humans would have blocked them off. But depending on how long it has been, holes in the crust should fill back pretty quick. But dont take my word for it, I'm no geologist

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larkface123
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posted 05-21-2003 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for larkface123     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by reload me:
Support for my Case
In the original movie, Agent Smith might have given away a pretty good hint about the movie when Morpheus was “infecting” Agent Smith and he said that Morpheus was like a “virus”. The Oracle and the Architect are the programming code that tells the virus and anti-virus programs what to do, which is written by the programmer in the actual “Real World” that we have not seen, at least yet???

If I'm not mistaken, in the first movie, Smith is talking about human beings being viruses, not just Morpheus.

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SCHEME
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posted 05-21-2003 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SCHEME     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WHY, WHY, WHY ???? Why are so many critics/analyzers/fans jumping onto this matrix in a matrix theory? I've never posted here before, but I've seen this movie and have been dying to discuss it. I searched the web for realoded forums, everything I found has this matrix in matrix respone from most people. Before I get into the real debunking, just think about this. The W. brothers came up with one of the best film ideas in a decade, went out of their way to make the movie one that would be anaylized in books, print ande web forums, do you really think they would write something that lame? I don't.
Maybe I'm not being fair since I have the advangtange of seeing the movie 4 times before posting first. I've read alot of posts. Everyone trying to figure out this movie focuses on the Architect and the Orcale, but the speeches by Agent Smith the Marovingian, and the Zion counciler are the ones that really tell you what's going on.

Agent Smith: Suprised to see me?
Neo: No
Agent Smith: Then you're aware of it?
Neo: Of what?
Smith: Our connection. I don't fully understand how it happend, perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied . . .

This line right here explains:
1. Neo's dreams. (His dreams take place in the Matrix, how could he dream them in the real world?)
2. Smith copying himself to Bane and entering the real world.
3. Neo destroying the sentinels, before he destroys them he senses them coming
It's all because of the connection betwenn Neo and Smith. Smith tells Neo something like "yet here I am, apparently free, just like you"
The real thing to figure out in the next movie will be what exactly happened when Smith and Neo killed each other then came back to life.


The couciler talk with Neo about the machines that run Zion. Neo saya the could shut them machine down if they wanted. The couciler says yes but we would have no water or air. At the end Neo says "Machines need us and we need machines"
The couciler tells Neo he dosen't understand how the water purifier works but he understands why it has to work, then he says something like " I don't understand the reason that you can do some of the things that you do, but I hope we can understand the reason before it's too late."
When Neo reaches the source and sees the Architect, he then understands the reason.

Marovingian tells Morpheus "choice is an illusion, created between those with power and those without"

Now, remember that the Machines are AI, but also apparently AE because, Smith, The Marovingian and his Wife all show emotions. They are sentient programs that are no longer part of the system, "unplugged" as Smith says. Free, conscience beings "alive" in the Matrix. The couciler plants the seed in Neo for sympathy toward the machines.

I think the third movie will be about humans and AI's working together to beat "the system" something like a revolution.

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noiz
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posted 05-21-2003 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for noiz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Majmun:
He did have a plug, it was just hard to see with his dark hair.
There are a lot of interesting suggestions and theories out there. I wonder if the W brothers read these forums and set back and laugh at us.


I think you are right. The W. brothers probably not only read these forums, but possibly also contribute to them with misleading theories in order to fuel the mystery and contraversy.

In any case, thanks W. brothers for creating something outside of the normal hollywood crap. Very few movies these days can truely stimulate the mind and fuel a bunch of geeks like us to be spending time online discussing movie theories as if when we figure out how the matrix works, it will change our own understanding of how the universe works.

Because it's just a movie "or is it?"

a dream within dream within a dream

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ebronte76
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posted 05-21-2003 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebronte76     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

First let me say that I have really been enjoying the conversations on this board. Everyone is staying on topic and throwing out some great ideas (especially DoogsDC).

Next let me ask what people think about the quote from the Architect above. Why would a program like the Architect CHANGE the conditioning of "the one" from something that has worked 5 times before? He clearly says that Neo's conditioning ("design") was more specific from general caring about our species to love of one person.

And yet it is this very love that causes Neo to choose the other door from what the Architect professes he WANTS Neo to choose.

Thoughts? Is this just more manipulation, or as I read someone else say somewhere, is it that the machines WANT Neo to make the choice to sacrifice humanity because they cannot do it themselves.

Anyone?

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mrmup
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posted 05-21-2003 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mrmup     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SCHEME:
[B]WHY, WHY, WHY ???? Why are so many critics/analyzers/fans jumping onto this matrix in a matrix theory? I've never posted here before, but I've seen this movie and have been dying to discuss it. I searched the web for realoded forums, everything I found has this matrix in matrix respone from most people. Before I get into the real debunking, just think about this. The W. brothers came up with one of the best film ideas in a decade, went out of their way to make the movie one that would be anaylized in books, print ande web forums, do you really think they would write something that lame? I don't.
Maybe I'm not being fair since I have the advangtange of seeing the movie 4 times before posting first. I've read alot of posts. Everyone trying to figure out this movie focuses on the Architect and the Orcale, but the speeches by Agent Smith the Marovingian, and the Zion counciler are the ones that really tell you what's going on.

Agent Smith: Suprised to see me?
Neo: No
Agent Smith: Then you're aware of it?
Neo: Of what?
Smith: Our connection. I don't fully understand how it happend, perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied . . .

This line right here explains:
1. Neo's dreams. (His dreams take place in the Matrix, how could he dream them in the real world?)
2. Smith copying himself to Bane and entering the real world.
3. Neo destroying the sentinels, before he destroys them he senses them coming
It's all because of the connection betwenn Neo and Smith. Smith tells Neo something like "yet here I am, apparently free, just like you"

B]



I'm sorry, but I don't think you have debunked anything. Having Agent Smith imprint part of him onto Neo does not explain the physics behind him having the ability to destroy Gigantic Flying Squid Machines with a wave of the hand. If that is the answer, then THAT would be lame.

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loki
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posted 05-21-2003 06:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is my anti-Matrix in a Matrix based on the Revolutions Trailer.

1) The Trailer still shows the basic laws of the matrix. Outside the Matrix - grubby clothes and fighting sentinals - inside the Matrix - stylized clothes and walking on walls, karate, etc.

2) The war appears to happen between the Zoinites and the Machines thus if Neo new that Zion was a Matrix the would be no need to fight the War.

Finally,

3) I did a freeze frame of the trailer for Revolutions and there is a Frame where Neo and Trinity are driving a hover craft and Neo is blindfolded (maybe the "stop the sentinals" power makes him blind) and Neo appears to put up his hand again to stop a Sentinal.

Thus, I think his "stop the Sentinals" abililty is a power he has outside the Matrix for some reason (Meld with Smith, etc.) remember this is still Sci Fi and the "real world" can take on some unreal characteristics in Sci Fi. This ability again is probably the only one he has in the "real world" b/c if he was Superman outside the Matrix there whould be no need to fight the war w/ the Machines, you could just let Neo/Superman fight the machines.

- Just thought not many people are looking to the Revolutions Trailer for answers.

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Casper314
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posted 05-21-2003 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Casper314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

SPOILER'S BELOW BASED ON THE TRAILER!!!!!

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loki
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posted 05-21-2003 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks CASPER. So many spoilers here I forgot the warning.

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scarmouth
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posted 05-21-2003 06:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for scarmouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slyzer:
The way I see it is holes can be refilled by magma and earthquakes etc. and if there were any holes left then the humans would have blocked them off. But depending on how long it has been, holes in the crust should fill back pretty quick. But dont take my word for it, I'm no geologist

Guys, ZION doesn't have to be in the same place everytime.

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DoogsDC
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posted 05-21-2003 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey guys, I just reread every single post on the forum to try and make sense of and combine everything to something structural and not redundant. I'll do that later.

For now brothers, (i assume maybe only a few girls are talking here because that's the nature of people who discuss sci-fi):

quote:
Originally posted by kruton:
A sidenote to DoogsDC, et al--it appears the Christians may not have a monopoly on hypocrisy after all. Don't get upset that people find parallels in the Matrix to Christianity, Buddhism, Love, Determinism, and other ideas that you may or may not agree with or like. Everyone is free to see what they want to see, and I think that might be one of the W bros intentions.

Kruton sidenotes me about being derogatory to people who see parallels in Christianity. First off, reread what I say and reevaluate your comment.

Here's what I say:
3. Prophecy and Religion. The Messianic complex. Many people have said the Matrix is Completely 100% some kind of endorsement of Christianity, and I think this is total hogwash. If anything, I think it's a critique on Christianity and Neo is an Antichrist.
Evidence:
A. The matrix is like Catholicism and Christianity. It imprisons people's minds. You shouldn't like the matrix if you're a bible-beater because the matrix is what religion is. Neo is against the system. Why the hell do you think they play RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE at the end of every movie? This is not Kum-by-ya Christian knee-slapping Creed-sounding BS.
B. Neo CHOOSES A WOMAN and not salvation of the human race. Christ chooses saving the human race and gives up his love for Mary Magdelene. (watch "The Last Temptation of Christ")
C. I'll buy Gnosticism... maybe... because it's radically different from modern Christianity. The Gnostic cults also did some pretty weird stuff and were consequently exterminated by the Catholic church for heresy.
D. God is like the Architect. Couldn't our entire world be governed by programs just like it is supposed to be governed by physical laws? (I'm an atheist by the way) Isn't that chilling? God in the view of the Zionists is anything but kind. Do we have free choice if God controls all physical laws and predetermines our course for us?

Several points to note about your comment.

  • I am sorry for my abrasive nature of speech against religion. I'm an atheist and I really dislike all forms of religion. No offense to you or anyone out there. I sometimes get carried away. I'm not "upset" about anything, I just don't like it.

  • Are you calling me a hypocrite? If so how am I (Webster's) "professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or posses"? I fully profess to believe everything that I said.

  • You do not attack any of my ideas and merely call me a hypocrite (If I understand you correctly) This is a personal attack and not an attack on my logic.

  • People are entitled to believe what they want but debate is meant to enlighten and draw closer to the truth. Why not tell your opinions to a wall if you don't want criticism for them?

  • This debate on parallels to Christianity is central to understanding of the matrix. Yes, there are parallels, but I think they are parallels that mock Christianity.

  • OK: Let me expound upon my Chrisianity comments.

    1. Religion undoubtedly exists in the world of the matrix.
    2. No one in Zion believes or talks about Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Gnosticism, etc. The are essentially non-religious except for those that believe in "the prophecy".
    3. Consider this (the historical flow of power): God --> Man --> Machine (--> Man ?) (--> God?)
    Machine controls man in the present matrix world and the "real world". The "god" of the matrix is the architect and has a strong parallel with the God in the real world. Both control our universe (supposedly) but cannot deny us the ability to have free will.

    Here's the lesson here guys:
    Gnosticism is a renegade branch of Christianity. Gnostics believe that God is actually bad and not good. They want to escape the real world because, much like the Buddhists, they believe the world is filled with suffering. Like Taoists, they believe in two polar opposites, light and dark. Unlike Taoists, Gnostics believe in good and evil. Hence a Gnostic believes we should embrace one pole (the light). Taoists believe both are intertwined and you can never escape either one. They strive for balance. Here're the weird Gnostic beliefs: women are in the dark category and are inherently evil--women had to deny their womanhood to be Gnostics and they do not wish to exist and do not reproduce because God's world is so bad.

    Now I'm not saying I'm a gnostic. What I am saying is that Modern Christianity bears no resemblance to the Matrix. Why? Because God and the Architect are the same thing. Both apply limitations to the human race. Yet, Neo defies the Architect. Neo's ultimate enemy next to Smith is the Architect. If Neo is fighting against God, HOW IN THE WORLD IS HE JESUS F'ING CHRIST?

    Neo is an antichrist. And contrary to popular opinion, the antichrist is not necessarily bad. Gnosticism is weird, but it has one critical tenet that can be applied to the Matrix. God is inherently bad because he gives us choice and then gives us an elaborate system of limits on our abilities and our life. I don't think Neo is supposed to be subservient to the Architect OR God in the real world, (if there is one in the movie).

    Neo is our saviour on the Matrix level and the real world level. So are we to believe that the flow of power goes from God to Man to Machine -- then to Man (if Neo Wins the revolutions) -- THEN BACK TO GOD AGAIN?

    To further this entire philosophy, I think we have to consider that MiM theory is wrong. There are tons of arguments on this issue littered on the forum. But guys, we have to think critically. I think you all want to believe that something fantastical for Revolutions is going to happen. I do too. But what is more extraordinary: Neo is in a matrix within a matrix or Neo has supernatural powers in the real world? I think overcoming the limitations of both the real world and the virtual world is the most extraordinary.

    I do, in fact ascribe to the Neo as half-human, half-program theory. MiM and half/half are mutually exclusive.

    Everyone assumes either some kind of inter-machine communication is required for MiM to be false. Why? This would be like machine telepathy. There are no wires connecting the two and Neo has no Antenna. Seems fishy and overcomplicated to me. I think that it's something to do with overcoming limitations of God/Science in the real world, just as he overcame the Architect's limitations.

    Once again, NO offense intended to Kruton or any other Christians out there. I just don't think this is related to the movie in the way that you think it is. Please don't get "upset", Kruton. For then you would be a hypocrite for implying that hypocrisy is bad and being "upset" is bad; yet simultaneously violating both of the beliefs you profess. LOL Yes, the W.'s want controversy. But it's no excuse to post ideas that aren't logically sound.


    [This message has been edited by DoogsDC (edited 05-21-2003).]

    [This message has been edited by DoogsDC (edited 05-21-2003).]

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    DoogsDC
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    posted 05-21-2003 07:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    I've got a new unique idea. It's based on this: http://www.loggia.com/myth/morpheus.html

    "Morpheus at a Glance

    name | Morpheus
    role | god of dreams

    Morpheus in Greek Mythology

    Morpheus was the god of dreams in Greek mythology. According to some ancient sources - such as the Roman poet Ovid - he was the son of Hypnos, the god of Sleep. Morpheus briefly appears in Ovid's Metamorphoses:
    "King Sleep was father of a thousand sons -indeed a tribe - and of them all, the one he chose was Morpheus, who had such skill in miming any human form at will. No other Dream can match his artistry in counterfeiting men: their voice, their gait, their face - their moods; and, too, he imitates their dress precisely and the words they use most frequently. But he mimes only men..."

    Ovid therefore suggests that Morpheus only sends images of humans in dreams or visions, while his brothers Phobetor and Phantasos are in charge of depicting dream images of animals and inanimate objects. Together these three sons of Sleep - Morpheus, Phobetor, and Phantasos - rule the realm of dreams. "

    If the W.'s take this name seriously, isn't Morpheus in control of everything?

    A. Greek Morpheus is the god of dreams. All the world in the matrix is in a dream. The matrix is the realm of dreams. Hence, Matrix Morpheus may be the god of the realm of dreams.
    B. Greek Morpheus can mime any Human Form. We now know (and guys, I think it's the majority consensus so far on the forum) that Smith is now in Bane's body. Perhaps Morpheus is related to the machine world and the system of control in some way. Could Morpheus mime the human form as a program in a human body?
    C. Morpheus has tons of power over the prophecy and beliefs of the people in Zion. If the matrix could pick someone in the human world to have on its side maybe it's Morpheus. On the other hand, maybe morpheus is another renegade program in human form.
    D. If Greek Morpheus had the power to control people's dreams maybe Matrix Morpheus can control Neo's and everyone else's. Hence, I IMPLY THAT MORPHEUS MAY BE BEHIND THE ARCHITECT AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF POWER.

    [This message has been edited by DoogsDC (edited 05-21-2003).]

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    DoogsDC
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    posted 05-21-2003 08:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DoogsDC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Here's a summary of All of Matrix in Matrix theory's pros and cons:

    PROS/POSSIBLE REQUIRED LINKS IN THE CHAIN FOR MiM TO BE TRUE

  • The council of 23 is lying to everyone. Quite possibly, the supposed fact that the matrix has existed for 100 years in the 6th iteration is false.

  • The EMP blast is a similar power to the power that Neo has in the Matrix. This would be developed in Revolutions

  • Explains why Smith must kill Neo to be free. (from M1)

  • Explains "The prophecy was all a lie"

  • The matrix reclaims the 1% energy source that doesn't accept the original matrix. This falls in line with the belief that the architect's logic will not allow him to simply give up the 1% energy source.

  • The process of starting up Zion again is much easier in MiM.

  • Fills the gap about the Architect's statement "by design" with regard to Neo's Messiah fate.

  • Falls in line with the observation that Merovingian may be a former version of Neo. If Merovingian is a program, so would Neo be. Thus, Zion would be in the MiM.

  • New One by Me: Plot flows logically where the movie "The Thirteenth Floor" leaves off. In 13th Floor, a team of 3 guys constructs a virtual reality world where they can go and play around. People in this world are actually programs, yet they believe they are real. The leader goes into this world to have sexual escapades and winds up killed in the real world. The hero of the movie then tries to understand what happened by going into the program to figure out what the leader was doing. He finds a message to drive as far as he can in the "real world". The hero drives to the end of the world and finds a void of space with green CAD program lines, thereby proving that the world in which he lives is also virtual. Later on, he finds that an incarnation of himself in the "real real" world is going into his body and killing people. HERE'S the point: He finds a way to kill this guy from the real world while this guy is inside his body. The hero from the 2nd level virtual reality then wakes up in the "real real" world and discovers that his team had been simulated people that discovered how to build a simulation within a simulation. This movie really causes you to think about how you know that this reality is actually real. MiM theory would do the same thing, but it would expand this notion by incorporating religious themes. You would wonder if all of religion is a crock because MiM would show how none of it is actually real.

  • Cons:

  • If MiM were true, why couldn't the Matrix simply unplug the troublemakers?

  • If MiM were true, the Matrix would know where Zion is. This requires so much deception to take place that it's mind-boggling.

  • Plot would be too hard to close up. The movie would be very difficult to end with MiM and might even be disappointing.

  • Neo is constantly referred to as human. This makes the justification of Neo as a program in a 2nd level Matrix severly flawed.

  • In interviews, Reloaded is supposed to bring the "human element" into the trilogy. It spends more time in Zion. The scenes with Link, the sex scene, the speech, the offering of gifts to Neo, etc. The human element requires this to be reality

  • Neo's dreams and choices based on his dreams might require the real world to be real. Why would he have the dreams in the second level matrix?

  • Using EMP fields or powers in the real world would add another dimension to the movie and make it deeper philosophically.

  • If there is a 2nd matrix why couldn't there be an infinite number of matrices to account for every time someone "wakes up". It diminishes the point of waking up and negates the idea that it is possible to encounter any level that is actually real.

  • Again, this is a COMPILATION. Many ideas are from other people. This list is meant to help you compare them all in one place. If you have additions or I missed something or I am inaccurate, please tell me. I will edit this monster and put your ideas here. Then you can delete the recommendations so we don't waste space.

    I think the MiM theory is growing weaker in this discussion. I simply think the cons outweigh the pros.

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