# Lost Reviews and News

## Key Points from "Cabin Fever"

Posted by Mac Slocum on May 8, 2008 11:59 PM |

In honor of MIF

#1. Posted by: mtncbn at May 9, 2008 1:30 AM

Thanks Mac for the great review as always!

I found it interesting that there are so many similarities with Ben and Locke’s births. Both were first born sons. Both were born prematurely. Ben’s mom died immediately after his birth, living only long enough to name him. Locke’s mom nearly died causing her to give birth, named him as they were wheeling him away, and then abandoned him. Both were raised without their mothers. Soon after his birth Ben met Horace Goodspeed who he later met again on the island. Soon after Locke’s birth he was visited at the hospital by Richard Alpert who he later met again on the island.

It seems that there were several attempts to bring Locke to the island during his childhood and adolescence. Perhaps this was why Roger Linus was recruited to work for the Dharma Initiative—as a way to bring young Ben to the island.

Similarly Aaron was born on the island to Claire who was not expected (by Ethan Rom and the “others”) to survive childbirth. He is now (in the future) being raised by someone who is not his birth mother (and Claire may possibly be dead). Does this mean we will see Aaron have a visit from Richard Alpert (or possibly Matthew Abbadon) soon in one of the flash-forwards?

Any thoughts?

#2. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 9, 2008 1:38 AM

I WAS RIGHT!!!!

WHO REMEMBERS THE PIC I POSTED FROM THE FIRST CABIN SHOT A FEW WEEKS AGO!
ME AND BIFFS SAID IT WAS CHRISTIAN !!

I rule!

#3. Posted by: Phil ZOOP at May 9, 2008 1:49 AM

also

was anyone else waiting for Locke to find Jacob and have it be Abbadon saying "You owe me one Locke"

#4. Posted by: Phil ZOOP at May 9, 2008 1:53 AM

Long time reader, first time poster.

The Island was behind "Freighter Time" in the Economist when Daniel did his payload rocket experiment. I think the time shift matters based on which bearing is used.

@2: Ben and Locke's mothers were both named Emily as well.

#5. Posted by: Brian Douglas at May 9, 2008 1:53 AM

@mac:

>He[Horace Goodspeed] died during Death Fest '92, but he's been resurrected in Locke's dream state to provide directions to Jacob's cabin.

Directions, heck, Horace was *building* Jacob's cabin.

o==================

@mac

>(I'm pretty sure the protocol folder Keamy leafs through has a Dharma logo on it).

Really, or is this a joke? Reception here was getting a little dicey due to an electrical storm, so I may have missed something.

o==================

@mac

>So Sayid escapes and enjoys a leisurely evening ride back to the island.

I'm still warped over this 'bearing 305' business. Wasn't that the bearing Lapidus was supposed to use to come *from* the island? So if you're going *to* the island shouldn't you use the reciprocal? (125). And did Michael manage to disable the freighter just as they were on the right bearing? And are they able to drop anchor in mid ocean? (I haven't seen an anchor cable.) And if not, what keeps them from drifting off the spot?

o==================

@mac

>The Doc Murder is also intriguing because, moments before his jugular was unzippered, a Widmore mercenary told the living doctor he'd received a Morse code transmission over the satellite phone announcing the island arrival of the dead doctor. So, Dr. Ray was kinda-sorta warned of his impending doom.

Was that supposed to be Daniel's original morse coming in over the merc's phone? And if so, who sent the reply?

o==================

@mac

>If you've got a grasp on the discrepancy between the time on the freighter and the time on the island, I'd love to read your thoughts. At this point, I'm not sure if the island is consistently in the future (which would allow for Dr. Ray's body to appear before he's killed on the freighter) or if the position of the freighter -- or the island, for that matter -- can cause fluctuations in time. I suppose it's possible that the freighter could be ahead of island time while in one position, then it could drift elsewhere and fall into the past.

Maybe the "move" the island is suppose to make is in *time*, rather than *location*.

o==================

And finally, just for myself:

hamana-hamana-hamana-hamana-hamana-hamana.

#6. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 9, 2008 2:36 AM

I think the whole Lost story arc is based upon the novel Lost Horizon by James Hilton. See Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Horizon

Hugh Conway, a veteran member of the British diplomatic service, finds inner peace, love, and a sense of purpose in Shangri-La, whose inhabitants enjoy unheard-of longevity. There he finds an island of long-lived lives and "eventually the High Lama says that he is finally dying, and that he wants Conway to lead the lamasery" Conway instead leaves the lamasery which he regrets and the story ends with Conway uselessly searching again for Shangri-la ( a la Jack Shepard in recent episodes).

#7. Posted by: scoopdownunder at May 9, 2008 2:37 AM

I'd have to say that Claire is whatever Christian is now. Dead for one. I don't know for the rest.

It gives the theory of John having died in the crash a bit of believability, but I don't buy it.

It looked like the thing on Keamy's arm was just one part of a whole body device, a time machine supplied by Widmore??

Lapidus didn't seem to think Widmore was behind the fake plane crash.

It would take a long time for the doc's body to drift to the island, how far off shore is the freighter now?

Speaking of that, how much fuel has Sayid got in that little zodiac?

Why didn't Keamy torch the beach? Surely he could see the torches. Must have bigger fish to fry! (also, nice drop Lapidus!)

#8. Posted by: mtncbn at May 9, 2008 2:41 AM

4-11 (82) Cabin Fever

Island lost in time
People just as lost - seeking
Purpose, fulfillment.

#9. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 9, 2008 2:54 AM

Points:

1. There's a link between special people and the time of birth - both John and Ben were born about the time of their third trimester. Obviously this links in with Island birth mortality.

2. Locke's gonna move the Island... anyone care to bet it gets moved in time?

3. Is it wrong that having seen Claire as a highly strung whiney Ozzy for the past 3 and a half seasons, and having felt virtually no attraction to her, I saw her last night, relaxed and self assured, and felt like risking Jacob-cabin-splinters in several parts of my body to conceive a third trimester problem of our own?

#10. Posted by: Danny at May 9, 2008 2:55 AM

Why all the detail about John's young mother 'dating a man twice her age'? Could it be that Richard Alpert is John's father???

#11. Posted by: Gail at May 9, 2008 3:04 AM

@mac & Cecil re: Dharma logo:

I saw it too... when Keamy opens the binder and starts flipping through it you see the edge of the typical Dharma octagon.

My brain hurts after that episode... I spent the majority of it (pretty much from Richard's first appearance onwards) with a slackjawed expression going WTF? WTF?

Once it gets posted on the website and I have a chance to watch it again, I'll post whatever random observations I might have.

Great review as always, mac.

#12. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at May 9, 2008 3:34 AM

Hard to swallow Claire's not giving a cr@p that her baby is in the hands of 'hopefully' someone.

#13. Posted by: Ronny B at May 9, 2008 3:38 AM

Mittelos = Losttime?

#14. Posted by: paulo bear at May 9, 2008 5:22 AM

Watching the episode as i write this, will be dropping by later.

#15. Posted by: onlyone at May 9, 2008 6:00 AM

Upon a second viewing, here are some further thoughts:

Regarding Locke's dream sequence... did it seem odd to anyone else that Goodspeed repeated both "Hello there!" and "I'm Horace" at random intervals? The second "I'm Horace" could have been to make sure he remembered the name, but the second "Hello there!" made no sense.... almost like it was a spectral recorded message... if anyone else has a thought on this I'd love to hear it.

One of my favorite quotes of the episode is Locke talking to Hugo, referring to Dharma "...making all that ranch dressing that you like..."

@mac:
Young boy Locke chose not just the knife as "already belonging to him," but the sand and the compass as well. And yes, for what it's worth, it was a "Book of Laws" The knife was definitely the dealbreaker, though.

The locker that Locke was stuffed in had a Geronimo Jackson poster on the back of the door... just throwing that out there.

So Lapidus was obviously trying to do something to help the Losties when he tossed them the satphone... I suppose the GPS thing on the phone could help them to stay AWAY from Keamy & gang... if Jack didn't, as usual, come to the exact wrong conclusion.

So this is something that's been bothering me a lot recently, though it doesn't have much bearing on this particular episode. The timeline for Tom's trip to NYC WOULD make sense, maybe, but they pointed out several times during last season that after the anomaly, all their equipment was out of commision, including the sonar beacon that was supposed to guide them back... so they had no way to get back to the island. Did Tom use a similar method to that used by Ben as seen in "The Shape of Things to Come"? When he said "Some of us" can come and go as they please, is that what he's talking about?

Oh and I agree with mac, Claire was high as shit in that scene! My guess is she found Horace's stash of dank tucked away somewhere in that cabin.

#16. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at May 9, 2008 6:06 AM

@Cecil Rose/6 re Daniel's morse code

I believe that mercenary said that while he was hiding in the bushes, he heard the morse code come over. Maybe they were in the bushes, checking out the beach combers either before or after the Alex/Danielle/and can't remember his name right now ambush. (My timeline of events is really screwed up this morning...last night's episode sent my timeline of most of the events of this show into kaos.) Anyways, I think that is what he said.

@Jin's Flashlight/16

I also thought the whole Horace dream sequence to be odd. It's possible, the whole dialog seemed to be so mechanical. But, gotta give ole' Horace a break, he is dead and rotting in the death pit...guess anything he would have said should seem an accomplishment. Locke waking up suddenly with Ben staring at him...could Ben have somehow orchestrated that dream sequence...? He seems so beaten and defeated in this epsiode. Not sure if all this isn't an act for a later purpose. Also, what was up with Horace's nose bleeding...now it's bleeding, now it's not...? Very mechanical and awfully weird...

#17. Posted by: boodle at May 9, 2008 6:22 AM

GRAAA mac!

I'd like to address a few things brought up in previous comments:

- Locke's father is not Richard Alpert

- Horace Goodspeed was "looping" as evidenced by him knocking down the exact same tree repeatedly

- Christian Shepard's appearance was foreshadowed by the final Missing Pieces mobisode that was released before Season 4 began

Also, Damon Lindelof mentioned at least a couple years ago that the island may not be fixed in place.

Ain't this show crazy?

#18. Posted by: Dan at May 9, 2008 6:47 AM

Could Ben and Locke be half-brothers? Both had mothers named Emily. Too much of a coincidence!

#19. Posted by: Cissy at May 9, 2008 6:54 AM

The whole "island moving" thing reminded me of this New York Times article on LOST from 2005:

http://tinyurl.com/a8zzw

The final two paragraphs:

But the creators do know how the series ends. The survivors will not learn they are part of some dastardly experiment, or discover they are in purgatory, or wake up from a bad dream. "These guys get off the island," said Mr. Cuse.

Then, nearly in unison, both men add, "If it's an island."

That hint in 2005 presaged last night's revelation, I think. I'm curious to see where it goes from here.

#20. Posted by: Callan at May 9, 2008 7:20 AM

Re: Cissy (#19) --

I think that's entirely possible that Locke and Ben could be half-brothers.

Remember the exchange that Ben and Locke had after Locke 'tricked' Hurley into sticking with them? It went something like this:

BEN: Nice work, John. He actually thinks it was his idea to stay.

LOCKE: I'm not like you, Ben. (meaning he's not a manipulator)

BEN: You're certainly not. (or words to that effect)

This exchange implies some sort of kinship between the two regarding their identity. Maybe that's as simple as being the island's Chosen One. Or maybe it's more familial than that...

#21. Posted by: Callan at May 9, 2008 7:44 AM

Talk about your mind-boggling episode - AND what a wonderful review from MAC. After all the hubbub about his “too concise” reviews last week, the master gives us an old fashioned, full-bodied, herculean, “cross your t’s and dot your i’s” review!

Plus, he used the word “blerg” - something you don’t see every day, mind you.

Great review, MAC!

It will be really interesting reading everyone’s comments on this multi-faceted and in the end, stunning episode!

I find it interesting that, AGAIN, from another newer poster, the reference to James Hilton’s LOST HORIZON. People have been mentioning this since late in the second season, I think.

As in music, where there aren’t any new notes, just new ways to put them together, the same applies to prose - old ideas constantly explored, expanded and readapted.
When this thing is all over, someone needs to ask the writers if LOST HORIZON influenced them - and if so, was it from the very beginning?

Afterall, LOST HORIZON also starts with a plane crash.

#22. Posted by: davidrh at May 9, 2008 7:47 AM

"....You'll never find it"
Ben to Whitmore in futureflash....

"He wants us to move the island"
Locke in this EP

Something tells me the chosen South Pacific moving company will do their job good!

#23. Posted by: Remember the following at May 9, 2008 8:04 AM

Thanks Mac for another awesome review!

My favorite exchange of the episode came when Locke tells Hurley to go back to the beach. After Hurley balks at wandernig through the jungle alone in the dark, Ben turns to Locke and says something like "He actually thinks it was his idea to stay with us" to which Locke replies "I'm not you Ben". Michael Emerson's retort "You're certainly not!" was priceless!

Personally, I think the Richard Alpert visits always happened. I have no idea yet what alerted RA and Mittelos to Locke's birth (Maybe they have a "special baby" detector like Cerebro, that could have told them about Aaron and Walt as well). But the key is when he visited Backgammon-playing school boy Locke. Locke picks up the knife and Batmanuel gets very angry. Are you sure John? Are you sure that's your knife? Oh yes, oh yes, my precious! nods the young lad. After grabbing all the items (including those that "already belong" to Locke, that Indian--er, Native of the Island--Giver), RA says that Locke isn't ready...yet. I think the gang from Suddenly Susan has been awaiting Locke as their annointed leader (or at least a travel club member) for a very long time. Maybe Benry was just a place-holder?

The thing I found interesting about the "Fate is a fickle bitch" line was when he was talking about how he was chosen once, but then he got a tumor in his spine and Alex was killed. He spoke as if he "blamed" the Island for both events, or at least that neither would have happened had he still been the chosen one. Maybe, and I may be totally off the mark, but maybe that was the rule that Widmore changed.

What if Widmore, through the psychic in Australia and Abbadon at the rehab facility, conspired to get Aaron and Locke to the island in order to supplant Ben as the chosen one? Because we still need to unravel how the psychic's claim that Aaron must not be raised by anyone but Claire and Christian's claim that Aaron doesn't belong "here" (Jacob's cabin or the Island? Only a couple of months old and already being shunned from family reunions...) can both be true (unless, of course, one or both are not true).

Mac, it was indeed a DHARMA logo on the second protocol. I didn't see which one though. And it was a Book of Laws. Whose laws, one must wonder.

Finally, didn't we see both John's and Ben's parents? There is no physical resemblances between their fathers or mothers, so I have no idea why someone would jump to the conclusion that they are related.

#24. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 9, 2008 8:27 AM

Mac - Great recap as always.

Just to cover some points mentioned above:

1) The device strapped to Keamy is a sophisticated heart monitor. This device is most likely synced with a WMD - Keamy dies = weapon goes Boom = Island gets torched. Not to say that Keamy would sacrifice himself to torch the island, but the device is a back-up measure in case he dies befrore he can activate it. You get a really good look at the device when Lapidus is helping Michael out of his cell and the look down the hall and see Omar strapping the device to Keamy.

2) The cover page of the folder that Keamy pulled from the lock box did have a DHARMA octagon, but I couldn't make out the logo in the center.

3)Emily's mother confirmed that Richard Alpert is not the father when the nurse asked if he was.

Claire was definitely tripping on some wicked DHARMA weed - or maybe there's some magic 'shrooms growing around Jacob's cabin.

#25. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 9, 2008 8:27 AM

Best 2 minutes of the episode....Ben and Hurley sharing a snack in silence. You can just picture Damon and Carlton writing that scene and loving life.

#26. Posted by: Sillygirl0630 at May 9, 2008 8:35 AM

Here's a theory about why RA was asking 5yr old Locke "which items are aready yours". The theory would have to do with re-incarnation. Magnus Hanso dies on the island, RA was one of his shipmates on the Black Rock. Perhaps the survivors of the Black Rock believed their beloved leader would one day be re-incarnated and they have been gathering up "special children" and presenting them with items that once belonged to Magnus Hanso. If Magnus is re-incarnated they might believe that he would recognize the items that once belonged to him.

Notice the commonality between the items:
Vial w/ Sand, Compass, Knife, Book of Laws - all these items looked very old.

Comic Book and Baseball Glove - these looked more recent.

To weed out any imposters they present all the items to the "child" and if Magnus is re-incarnated his "soul" would recognize that which belonged to him in his previous life.

Just a theory. Thought?

#27. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 9, 2008 8:39 AM

It was indeed a Dharma log on the secondary protocol. I only caught the top right area of it, so I'm not sure if there was a station logo on it or if it was just the standard Dharma logo.

@Cissy-
I think there is definitely a connection between Ben and Locke but I don't think it's htem being half brothers. In the episode where we see Ben being born (Forgive me for not remembering which one that was) Ben's mother is older than Locke's when their respective children were born. Then again, this may just be another Island time warp thingy.....

Great review Mac, and good ideas everyone. can't wait for next week.

#28. Posted by: Echoing_the_Silence at May 9, 2008 8:40 AM

I'm sure it has been stated, but it seems clear that Mittelos/Widmore = Dharma, which explains the relationship between Ben and Widmore, Ben betrayed Dharma and the 'owners' of the island for the Alperts of the island (likely to meet them at the temple), wasn't there a Judge woman in season 3 that hinted at another culture thing going on?

Moving the island may be as simple as changing the 'way in' since if you go on the wrong vector, you come in too early (body of doctor) or come in way late (dharma food drops), or miss the island altogether. Then again...

#29. Posted by: Michael Dain at May 9, 2008 8:41 AM

Loved the review Mac. Must not be getting much sleep lately...

The whole Richard Alpert/Locke scenario reeked of Qui-gon and Anakin "He's the Chosen One" if I may be permitted to continue my Star Wars parallels.

But the Horace Goodspeed looping thing smacked of The Matrix. Throw in some Lost Horizon and TPTB, while ripping off the classics, are doing it in a novel and most entertaining way.

After Locke'slocker incarceration, his counselor is telling him what Locke can't do. One of the things he tells Locke is that Locke can't be a superhero. It's starting to look like that's exactly what Locke will become...using Linus, Ben Linus as a role model.

I thought the little vial of sand was the kitty litter that surrounds Jacob's cabin. Maybe?

Claire is much cuter when she's not whining. Much much cuter...

#30. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 9, 2008 8:42 AM

Sorry for the DP!

#31. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 9, 2008 8:50 AM

@ Mister Grimm, I like the idea, isn't that what Tibetans do to determine if the child is a reincarnation of a Llama?

#32. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 9, 2008 8:56 AM

Regarding Linus and Locke's control of the island, I doubt Locke makes it to retirement. That's the reason Ben is so sanguine and distraught. I think he knows Locke is the sacrificial lamb to save the island. "Destiny's a fickle bitch" means it exacts a high price as well as delivering a high reward.

#33. Posted by: timb at May 9, 2008 8:56 AM

Locke's backstories are always so interesting. His, Sun's, and Jin's are my favorite. I have a question: Remember the one backstory of Locke's where he lived on some sort of "farm" or something with strangers and it was weird and mysterious? Has that been revisited? Do we know how or if that plays into anything?

Does anyone think ALL the questions will be answered by the time the show concludes? I'm doubting it...

#34. Posted by: Hurley Is Hot at May 9, 2008 9:05 AM

@FenwayBen #33:

YES - The Tibetans - I was trying to remember who does that and I couldn't remember. Thanks ! ! !

#35. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 9, 2008 9:07 AM

@FenwayBen #33:

Did you mean Dhali Llama or the four legged Llama indigenous to Peru?

#36. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 9, 2008 9:09 AM

@ 6 Cecil Rose
@ 17 Boodle

Re: the Morse code. While Omar was walking around on the freighter he had the sat. phone in his hand and the Morse code from Daniel was coming through. (Boodle, Omar didn’t receive the Morse code while he was on the island)

Did Emily Locke look 6 months pregnant to you guys? I didn't think she looked prego at all.

Re: the comic book that RA shows Locke (along with the knife, sand, compass, etc.). It says something like: "What was the secret of the mysterious 'HIDDEN LAND!'"

I guess we can assume that only six people get off the island because that’s how many Sayid can fit on that zodiac. If you ask me, they should have left Hurly behind and saved 3 other people in his space. (Oh , that’s not meant to be mean spirited, just thinking logistics). There’s no way that thing has enough gas to make it to the island and back. Maybe we should be looking at the big picture and not dissecting every little thing, like the gas/zodiac issue. If I learned one thing from this episode, it’s that I need to focus on the big picture and that will make all of the little details fall into place.

OK, I need more time to process this episode because I think a few of my theories have been blown out of the water.

#37. Posted by: Skipper at May 9, 2008 9:35 AM

It was wierd how Horace chopped down the same tree THREE times in a row. Even lock was confused because there was some sort of deja vu. Then Ben mentions how he had dreams once. It's almost like there's a machine that causes dreams and the cd was skipping.

#38. Posted by: alex at May 9, 2008 9:54 AM

i'm having a really hard time understanding why choosing the knife was wrong... forgive the ignorance.. but it was his - doesn't john have a knife now? i have to have this question answered... it almost kept me up all night.... :)

as always great review mac!

#39. Posted by: toni at May 9, 2008 10:03 AM

Something that's been on my mind since last week.
Jack's (was it new??) tattoo - RG - wasn't that the initials in Naomi's bracelet?

On second watching:

I thought Horace had Cindy's scarf on, but it was just a red T-shirt. Darn.

Emily's mom and RA exchanged glances of recognition.

I agree, the 'sand' in the bottle is what surrounds the cabin.

The compass was pointing to 305°

Frank doesn't think Widmore put plane in trench.

A satisfied look comes over Claire's face when John asks the 'right' question.

#40. Posted by: mtncbn at May 9, 2008 10:05 AM

I don't think the doctor was warned that he was about to die - I think the Lost writers didn't trust the viewers to remember the Doc washing up on the beach and chose a heavy-handed way of reminding us.

#41. Posted by: Phil at May 9, 2008 10:06 AM

@Mr. Grimm, I did indeed mean Lama (literally "teacher", of which the Dalai Lama is the most important), but did spell it like the South American Camelid.

I don't get why people are freaking out about Horace repeating himself...dreams aren't bound by the laws of the "real" world, let alone the "island" world. Was there a meaning in the repetition? Wuite likely (no theories from me on that front though!), but it wasn't weird or the Island's CD skipping, IMHO.

#42. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 9, 2008 10:08 AM

Still working through the posts but I wanted to put out there that Ben said to Hurley or Locke (about Locke) something to the effect that "I should have known that I couldn't kill you". Isn't that pretty much the same situation he's in with Widmore?

Is this all just "the Island won't let me" stuff or is there something else I'm not thinking about.

Mac, I'd never in a million years have made the connection about the high tide washing away the wreckage and the possibility that it was caused by a previous "moving of the island". You and your memory both rock!

I'll have a lot more to say after I get through the posts.

Already, though, I cannot believe all of the amazing observations and references to things in past episodes that people have uncovered. Kudos to the whole crowd!

#43. Posted by: LostedIt at May 9, 2008 10:08 AM

Oh, and BTW, a Lama is a Tibetan teacher of...you guessed it...Dharma. ;)

#44. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 9, 2008 10:09 AM

→ 19. Posted by: Cissy at May 9, 2008 6:54 AM Could Ben and Locke be half-brothers? Both had mothers named Emily. Too much of a coincidence!

Not likely. As FenwayBen pointed out, we have seen both of the mothers....John's mom (when he was older and working at a toystore) was once played by Katy Sagal (from Married...With Children), I believe. Ben's mom was played by another actress, with blonde hair (ANTP?)

#45. Posted by: Keluha at May 9, 2008 10:27 AM

@ Keluha (#45):

Katy Segal played Locke's girlfriend, not his mom.

#46. Posted by: Callan at May 9, 2008 10:31 AM

So many thoughts, must focus...

@Cecil_Rose
hamana-hamana-hamana - you said it, brotha.

I really like your theory about the island moving in time. I was thinking before the episode (or maybe I read it here) that maybe finding the cabin was more a matter of when it was rather than where it was.

@mtncbn
Lapidus didn't seem to think Widmore was behind the fake plane crash.

That was a big reveal for me. I'm trying to figure out why I always assumed Lapidus thought he was behind it. Live and learn.

@Fenwaybog
What if Widmore, through the psychic in Australia and Abbadon at the rehab facility, conspired to get Aaron and Locke to the island in order to supplant Ben as the chosen one?

Excellent theory. Same could be said for Alpert trying to get John to the island. Alpert and Ben didn't seem too friendly on the island together.

@Mister_Grimm
I like your Keamy device as WMD theory. I thought that maybe it was a way to avoid time travel sickness (an artificial "constant" of sorts).

@Hurley Is Hot
I think the weed in Hurley's backstory is the "stash of high-grade Dharma weed" Claire used to get "baked out of her gourd" (favorite Mac line this review and how I felt after watching this episode).

Favorite Episode Line:
Locke: "We're gonna make a pitstop first" right before they head to the Dharma Death Pit. Punilicious!

#47. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 9, 2008 10:31 AM

re 16 "did it seem odd to anyone else that Goodspeed repeated both "Hello there!" and "I'm Horace" at random intervals? "

It was like a looped hologram - like Leia's message to obi wan that R2D2 had in his dusty innards.

#48. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 10:32 AM

Were the objects that Richard showed John actually owned by him? He gave a compass away to Sayid, he picked up ash/sand from the circle around the cabin, was the comic book an English version of the one Walt had? Notice the "Hidden Island" phrase on the front? John had a several knives, and dk about the Book of Laws. Looked Celtic.

#49. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 10:33 AM

Got through the posts now. First, regarding Richard Alpert testing Locke and Ben getting somewhat "pushed aside", I think we're seeing further evidence that perhaps there is someone the island is looking for as a savior. Remember that the numbers are supposed to be some sort of doomsday numbers. What if someone specific is supposed to come along to stop the sequence that leads to mankind's destruction? These tests they are putting people through could be (like the Dalai Lama tests someone mentioned earlier) in fact the first part of weeding out and locating "the one".

Perhaps Ben and others (even Locke?) are meant to be "placeholders" or "keepers" of the island until "the one" finally is located. Jacob could possibly be some sort of overseer that allows someone to be in that position but ultimately "moves on" to another person over time, as with Ben to Locke. Perhaps someone like Waaaaaaaaalt or Aaaaaaaron are the end-all be-all or yet another step in the list to get to that final person.

Theory, conjecture, and prognostication, surely this all is, but we're seeing pieces of a much larger picture and, like the blind men standing around an elephant, we can only make deductions based on what evidence we have before us.

Second on my list, I'm rather disturbed at the idea that Claire may now be "dead" per se, since we never saw her die, and it would appear that if she truly is dead then someone that is already dead (Christian Shepherd), or perhaps the island, "killed" her. This would be a first in terms of not having any prior justification (ie: Ecko was killed by the smoke monster after judgement was passed) for a death not caused by an Other or Lostie.

Speaking of Christian Shepherd, I do not believe he is Jacob, nor do I believe he is the person that Locke saw in the chair the first time he went into the cabin (sorry @3/Phil Zoop). That "person" was asking for help from Locke and obviously under some sort of duress. Christian Shepherd and Claire were obviously under no such duress and it was rather like a business meeting at a coffee shop or a gathering than the eerie scene that unfolded that first time we saw the insides of the cabin. Besides, Christian Shepherd died only rather recently in relation to the island's history (just prior to the fateful flight). There's no way his history with the island and Dharma and the like could possibly go too far back unless there's a whoooole lot of back-story that we're currently not privy to.

I know someone mentioned the Richard Alpert isn't Locke's father, and I tend to agree, but I would like to point out that when Emily's mother said something to the likes of "we don't know him" or something like that to the nurse it could very easily have been just a rejection of Richard so as to prevent anyone from knowing her daughter was dating someone twice her age than it was a verbatim speaking of truth. Assuming Richard Alpert isn't the father (which, to be honest, I just don't know) we're left expecting that the real father is going to be a significant revelation in a future episode if it isn't the father he already got Sawyer to kill either.

Lastly, we should really get a discussion going about the items that Richard put before young Locke to test him. I would think most (not the decoys) are of significant importance to the storyline and perhaps we can glean more history to the Lost mythology if we get specifics about each.

That's what I've got so far. I expect I'll think of much more the second after I hit the Post button as usual...

#50. Posted by: LostedIt at May 9, 2008 10:33 AM

This episode reminded me of the Truman Show.

What if there are a few people that play the roll of Truman...Locke, Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, and Sun, etc. are all "Truman"? Everyone is in on it including Locke's grandmother who seemed to recognize Richard Alpert at the hospital, Jack's dad, Locke's dad, Walt's step-father, Claire’s psychic guy, Jack's Phuket girlfriend, Rose’s healer, etc. And Mikhail is in charge of broadcasting the "Truman show" via his TV control room. ha, ok, I'm just being silly about the control room….. So it’s not really being broadcasted to the masses, but the way that Locke was “groomed” or “persuaded” to follow the path that he did was very “Trumanesque”. I bet it was no coincidence that Horace and his wife were traveling down that road when they found Roger Linus and bleeding Emily. I wonder if Widmore planted these sleeper cells into our castaway’s lives in order to coax them into making the choices that they made, not to mention …..getting on that flight.

#51. Posted by: Skipper at May 9, 2008 10:38 AM

re: all comments that Lapidus did not know Widmore was behind the fake plane crash...

I need to re-watch, but I could have sworn he asked (was it Michael while he was chained in his room?) him why he would trust Widmore...trust the man that set up the plane crash at the bottom of the ocean...? Now, I need to get through work today so that I can re-watch. Does anyone else remember Lapidus saying something like that...?

#52. Posted by: boodle at May 9, 2008 10:38 AM

How does Frank know about Charles Widmore?

#53. Posted by: AC at May 9, 2008 10:43 AM

re: my own comment regarding Lapidus

Couldn't have been Michael...Michael works for Ben...oh my head hurts. I'm so sure Lapidus made that reference. Not sure how he knows Widmore...guess we'll find out...maybe found out things after his revelation that the dead pilot was not who they reported it to be...

#54. Posted by: boodle at May 9, 2008 10:45 AM

"Personally, I think the Richard Alpert visits always happened."

Maybe he visited everyone on the "lists" that Ben had and they were all manipulated to be on the plane so they could be examined closer and see which one the island wants/needs. Kind of like the reincarnation theory someone here mentioned.

Also, if the Island actually DOES move, maybe that's how the Black Rock got to be so far inland. Just came right on up up under it.

I have to say this was the a really amazing episode. I kept saying "What?" and "Whoa" and "Dude". I really needed this blog today. Thanks Mac and everyone else for helping get my mind around all this.

#55. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 10:47 AM

@ 50. Posted by: LostedIt

I don't think Richard is Locke's father. Locke gave his kidney to his real father.... had to be his real father for the kidney to match....right?

#56. Posted by: Skipper at May 9, 2008 10:52 AM

"I'm having a really hard time understanding why choosing the knife was wrong... forgive the ignorance.. but it was his - doesn't john have a knife now? i have to have this question answered... it almost kept me up all night.... :)"

Here is what I think - I know, I'm wrong-
The knife was Locke refusing his destiny. Maybe for the first time - He thinks he is warrior but he was meant to be the scientist/philosopher to save the world. Instead, He turns his back on his calling. can anyone remember if his physical problems on the island coincide with his refusing to listen to the island? Hopefully John will manipulate the numbers and save the world from destruction - I would be so happy if
So he would be a superhero.

#57. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 10:56 AM

TO Callan:

Drat, you are right, that was his GF...hey, it's not my fault, this show makes my head spin.

#58. Posted by: Keluha at May 9, 2008 10:58 AM

@boodle re: Micheal and Lapidus discussing fake plane crash.

Michael "knows" that Widmore faked the plane crash from what Tom told him. Can we trust Tom?

Lapidus said to Michael, what makes you think Widmore faked the plane crash?

There's probably a blame game going on between Ben & Widmore about who faked the crash. Remember Tom just showed Michael a couple pictures and a purchase order and Michael believed him that Widmore had faked the crash.

#59. Posted by: Sock...Puppet...Guy at May 9, 2008 11:03 AM

Wowzers! This episode was total mind-%^&! Great comments and analysis by everyone so far! Quick thought - I just couldn't help but be reminded of the Twin Peaks black lodge sequences when we visited the cabin this time round - I think this was mostly due to zonked out Claire. Maybe she drank out of the weird jars of black liquid from the windowsill that we saw previously? Arghhhhh - What is the significance of the objects shown to young Locke? I like the "Grimm" take on things (objects from the islands past - likely from Black Rock days), but wonder why the knife was a no-no! It certainly looked just as old as the others.... #60. Posted by: shikotee at May 9, 2008 11:05 AM I thought the whole episode was one big What the frak? moment...blistering pace...I just don't see how the writer's can possibly maintain that pace for another two seasons...staggering amount of information and inference going on...I'm positively reeling... As for the knife...maybe that's the MacGuffin that means Locke will replace Alpert? Or maybe it means that Locke will replace Jacob becoming THE Big Man himself, and not just Ben the handy-to-have-around man, and it was too much for Alpert to handle. If the island can move (which I posited many many moons ago re. the difference in headings), maybe it can move in time AND space, whichever is the more apropos at the time (and space). I like the idea of it popping up under the Black Rock like the giant alien spacecraft in The Abyss. #61. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 9, 2008 11:06 AM BTW< I just went onto IMDB to see if I could tell who played John's mother, because I know she visited him at the toystore...and there is some interesting info under the John Locke Character synopsis... http://tinyurl.com/56vtdk that site says that it may contain spoilers, so be warned! #62. Posted by: Keluha at May 9, 2008 11:07 AM Re: Locke's father I seem to recall on a previous Locke flashback (can't remember the season or the episode, but it was a while ago) that someone (Locke's mother?) told Locke that he was "immaculately conceived". Any theories on what this statement means in light of the flashback stories about Locke and his interactions with Alpert and Abbadon? I'm not sure we really know who Locke's real father is (yet). I don't think Alpert is Locke's father. #63. Posted by: DJ at May 9, 2008 11:07 AM Matthew Abbadon is troubling to me (and not just because he kinda freaks me out). The backstory in this episode seems to put him on the same side as Richard Alpert, but judging from Abbadon's previous appearances, that doesn't make much sense. If, like Alpert, Abbadon is an islander, why would he visit Hurley and ask if "they are still alive"? Wouldn't he know? And, moreover, wouldn't he have access to "they"? We've also seen Abbadon in a direct Widmore capacity; he and Naomi planned the freighter expedition. So, here's my question: Does this backstory reveal a battle for Locke's allegiance? Could Alpert and Abbadon be toying with Locke's timeline in an effort to woo him/trick him to do their bidding? And, if Alpert and/or Abbadon *are* tweaking the timeline, doesn't this violate the "no paradox" rule Darlton have pushed? #64. Posted by: mac at May 9, 2008 11:07 AM 64. Posted by: mac That is so funny! Just after I posted, I was thinking about the implications pertaining to Abbadon, and was going to post on it. You beat me to it! As someone else mentioned, they did try to make us think that Locke would encounter Abbadon in the Lodge... sneaky writers! But it does appear that Abbadon and Richard are dueling forces, much like Ben and Widmore. It does make me wonder how far back this battle of two forces goes back - maybe from the beginning? We've seen Locke and Ben (and maybe Aaron in the future) have very similar origins, and they have been deemed as special? Perhaps both forces/factions are always trying to influence the special ones? It does make me wonder about Widmore's heritage/birth.... Was he special as well, and maybe is he aligned the other island interest/force? So very confused..... #65. Posted by: shikotee at May 9, 2008 11:23 AM "Ghost Claire bubbles her bong" I'm still cracking up on that one Mac. Ok, so here we go... clearly, the island itself is sentient somehow. I say this with confidence after seeing Keamy unable to shoot Michael. Nobody is monitoring those incidents, in the sense of "Look, someone is about to shoot Michael! Hit the anti-gun switch, quick!!" Instead, these things just happen, because the ISLAND wants it to be so. We've danced around this idea on the blog, but I think it's time to look at it more specifically now. On another note, I thought I had cemented the idea that anyone who has died on the island can be used as an "image". This explains Charlie, Ecko's brother, Boone, and even the whispers (Ghost radio... they get trapped there somehow) but Christian Shepard throws all this out the window, as he died OFF the island. Maybe the body is enough, since that managed to get there, but I would have thought to trap a spirit in the island bubble, a death ON the island would be required. Think about all the spirits available, from Dharma to more recent contributions, and the vast array of whispers makes more sense. It seems that Miles was introduced to validate this, since he also talks to spirits off the island, and "heard" the restless thoughts of Karl and Rousseau. (I still miss her... we will probably never get a flashback with her now.) What does it all mean? (shrugs) I still dunno, but pieces of it are sure starting to take shape. They have to, as they can't just "explain it all" in the last hour or two of the show, or it would make for a lousy non-story ending. Btw, last quick thought: no way they are taking the O6 out on that tiny boat. Something else is going to happen there... after all, the freighter isn't going to ferry the 06 home, right? #66. Posted by: The Duf at May 9, 2008 11:24 AM One thing that MAc didn't mention was that Ben seemed to imply that he wasn't the one who gave the order to kill all the Dharmites and that someone else was in control before he took over. #67. Posted by: Ashman at May 9, 2008 11:25 AM Regarding Time Shifting --------------------- @Brian Douglas/5 said: I think the time shift matters based on which bearing is used. ------------------ I agree that the degree of time shift is relative to the bearing. But this leads to so many more questions - To what degree can the shift occur? We saw that Faraday's rocket took 31 minutes longer to reach the Island than anticipated, based on it's velocity and distance to the island. What would the time differential be if it were fired on a different trajectory? Is the time shifting relative to the speed of approach/departure (a proportion of displacement)? Or is it absolute based on the point of entering the "snow globe"? Translation: If an object moving half the speed of the rocket followed the same bearing as the rocket, would it have been 62 minutes late? Or would it have lost the same 31 minutes as the rocket as a consequence of having crossed some field surrounding Island? We do know now that the time differential is not constant - and that it's BI-DIRECTIONAL! Put another way, this makes it possible to move BACKWARDS through time. This was proven when the doctor washed up on the shore before he had been killed. Does this mean that if Faraday's rocket had been fired along the bearing as the doctor's body, it would have reached the Island LONG BEFORE it was even fired? Next question - When did the Black Rock actually land on the Island? I've always assumed that the black rock set upon the Island some time after departing from Portsmouth, England (March 22, 1845). But, assuming the ship did not come in at the correct bearing, perhaps it reached the Island at a much later date! This creates all kinds of possibilities - or at least makes the most far fetched ones seem much more plausible - such as the possibility that Charles Widmore was actually on the Black Rock. Perhaps Danielle's ship was his means to get off the Island. Speaking of Danielle, what year did Rousseau believe it was when she arrived on the Island? She may have been there 16 years (Island time) but that does not necessarily mean she came upon the Island in 1988. Could the Dharma initiative have originated from the future as a means of averting a disaster that has already occurred or is on the brink of happening? I could easily fill up this entire blog with wild theories stemming from these possibilities, but I'll resist the urge and wait until I have more cohesive ideas with supporting relevant facts. #68. Posted by: vacc at May 9, 2008 11:27 AM Abbadon gathered Naomi, Lapidus, Faraday, Charlotte, and Miles. It seems that this group is distinct from Keamy's gunslingers even though they are on the same boat. Lapidus said he thought he was just flying scientists. Do we even know why Abbadon's group is on the island? Are they just there to explore the island's properties? Do we even know if Abbadon is working for/with Widmore? Or is it just assumed since his people are on "Widmore's boat." Capt. Gault didn't even seem to know what Keamy was doing. I have a feeling that Widmore told Gault & Abbadon's group that this was a scientific expedition and an extraction of Ben. But he told Keamy's group that it was a war and anyone and everyone is fair game to kill (including his own captain!). So how many different sets of people are there? 1. Abbadon's group of scientists 2. Keamy's group of soldiers 3. Penepole should be arriving soon probably with some sort of army. (What about her arctic scientists?) 4. Oceanic 815 survivors 5. Desmond, Juliet, (Kelvin, Danielle) 6. Natives to the Island (at least Alpert) 7. The Others at the Temple 8. Christian Shephard & Jacob 9. Charles Widmore back home 10. Benjamin Linus 11. Hanso Foundation / Dharma Initiative 12. Whoever else I missed... It's no wonder this show can get confusing... and I LOVE it. I'm thinking at some point there is going to be an ultimate battle for the island between a bunch of these groups... who will side with who? #69. Posted by: Sock...Puppet...Guy at May 9, 2008 11:28 AM So I'm in Photoshop right now... and I haven't read anything yet... not even the review... so now I will do that. HI EVERYONE!!! This episode was amazing. I totally called the Christian thing. For a second I thought it might be Yemi. Mister_Grimm's theory seems even more true. Woot woot! OMG... BEN <3333 He seemed so jealous!!! It was so cute. Now I shall read. #70. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 9, 2008 11:29 AM "So, here's my question: Does this backstory reveal a battle for Locke's allegiance? Could Alpert and Abbadon be toying with Locke's timeline in an effort to woo him/trick him to do their bidding?" Dagnabit, Mac! I was going to post almost exactly this, and you beat me to the wire! Alpert is on the island's side (whatever that means). Abbadon is an agent of Widmore. Their visits to Locke aren't part of the same plan, but part of competing plans. Further, Abbadon and Alpert quite deliberately look the same age in all story timelines. IMO, that's a sign that the struggle between groups for control of the island *does* somehow occur through deliberate manipulation of timelines. Locke-centric episodes are so much better than Jate-centric episodes. Locke is a character that matters, and there is no surer sign of that than that agents of both the island and Widmore chase him accross the timeline of his whole life. Two great acting moments from Ben. The delivery of the "no you're not" retort, to John, and the Lifesavers Moment with Hurley. I think what we'll eventually discover about the future timeline is that Ben's lists (and other orders) come to him from Locke, who is supposedly in charge (but who, I suspect, is always in peril of being swayed by Ben's manipulation, even when supposedly in charge). #71. Posted by: Deep Cover at May 9, 2008 11:30 AM @56/Skipper - I agree completely. The "father" he gave the kidney to was very likely his real father based on the fact that the kidneys were a match. It was one of those things I thought of after I'd already hit the Post button for which I wanted to post-Post about. ;) #72. Posted by: LostedIt at May 9, 2008 11:32 AM Wait sorry... Did anyone think that Locke and Ben were related? Because both their mom's are named Emily. Too bad they look different. Sorry if someone said that already... but that's the first thing that came to my mind when they said "Emily". OK now I'm reading... Unless my photoshop teacher sees this and locks down my computer. #73. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 9, 2008 11:34 AM So, I actually haven't had a chance to watch the episode yet, but I've been reading all of the reviews and posts that I can while pretending to work and I've got to get this out. So the island can move. This makes sense. And I agree with the idea that it can move through time and space. I would like to throw out there the idea that the island is some sort of alien "vessel." I've always leaned toward the view that the island is an alien spaceship that masqueraded as Atlantis or some such nonsense. I think that this is evidenced by the four-toed statue and Ben's weird secret-room door. Perhaps Dharma/Widmore understand this and want to control it so that they can further study the alien technology. Or not. The writers throw some mean curveballs. #74. Posted by: Locke4President at May 9, 2008 11:34 AM How can Ben & Locke have the same mom, when Ben's mom died right after he was born, and Locke's mom shows up well-aged in one of his flashbacks (claiming he was "immacuately conceived")? #75. Posted by: Sock...Puppet...Guy at May 9, 2008 11:38 AM To Kehula – Swoozy Kurtz (sp?) (of many things, I always remember her from the show Sisters) was adult Locke’s mom. Who if I remember right was schizophrenic or had some sort of mental disorder, when she hooked up with Locke at the toy store. (I agree, Anthony Cooper had to be Locke’s real dad, otherwise, why would he go to so much trouble conning Locke if there wasn’t a blood relative chance the kidney would match?) #76. Posted by: Lucy at May 9, 2008 11:43 AM @57/berkyo - I think Richard being frustrated at Locke's choice of the knife may have been a situation of Richard and co. believing Locke is something he's not than of Locke mistakenly making the wrong choice simply because he's "not ready". Sometimes a person (or people) desperately want to believe someone is something (a savior?) that he isn't and try to make him into that just to justify their beliefs. On the other hand, for all I/we know Locke truly is "the one" (whatever that may be) and he really just isn't ready to accept/believe it completely and wholeheartedly yet. Regarding Abbadon/Alpert, they do appear to be doing the bidding of opposite sides, rather than on the same side. Perhaps they are Ben's/Widmore's (respectively) worker bees (or is it now Locke's/Widmore's?). When Locke says they need to move the island, we're debating whether that is physically or through time, but isn't the whole point moot given that the mercenaries have already reached the island? Where/whenever it "moves" to, wouldn't it just take the mercenaries with it along with everyone/everything else on the island (or, as Darlton said, "if it even IS an island"? #77. Posted by: LostedIt at May 9, 2008 11:44 AM Competing Factions, The Knife, Random Accidents: I agree Widmore (and others) could be planting sleeper cells. And I'm getting more and more convinced he's connected to the time traveling and so can "see" the future and plant things in the past to alter the future. In that case, was Locke's mother hit by a car intentional to try to prevent Locke from being born? I agree with berkyo that Locke turning his back on science is very important to the story. Abbadon at the hospital wasn't just casually nudging him toward being a man of faith. Any chance the knife that killed the freighter doctor was the same one Alpert was showing Locke? They flashed to the knife briefly after the killing. Maybe that's why Alpert is upset when little John chooses the knife. Name games: Does the secondary protocol having a Dharma logo imply Widmore = Dharma = Science? In that case, Christian and Jacob (and Aaron?) = Faith. Where would John Locke fit into that equation? #78. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 9, 2008 11:53 AM This could be crazy, but I had the same Lama-test impression as others have mentioned when watching RA testing young Locke, except, I didn't think Locke "failed" the test. The eyeliner seemed not just disappointed but truly upset. I took that to mean that Locke gave Richard an answer that connected him into the island, just not the connection RA was hoping for. I think all of the objects (or at least some of them) had some significance to the island and/or Jacob and/or whomever Locke may be the reincarnation of. When Locke picked the knife, Locke showed that he was going to be the person to go to war for the island. Either Alpert doesn't want him fighting that war, or he realized that Locke's "time" to fulfill his island-related role wouldn't come until much later. Re: the Abbadon/Alpert battle, wasn't Alpert affiliated with Mittelos? (Sorry, I don't remember when they used that name, but I thought it was when they were first recruiting Juliet.) If Alpert still wanted Locke when he was 16, I don't see that Alpert and Abbodon necessarily have conflicting interests. #79. Posted by: Lucy at May 9, 2008 11:55 AM Man... i watched this episode after a few drinks, and while I wasnt as chill as Claire (I agree, btw, with those who found her far more attractive in this ep than others...), I was left with a very Neo-like "Whoaa" feeling afterwards... @ 27, Senor Grimm: good point about the re-incarnation of Hanso. Could explain why he chose the knife. In addition to looking pretty old, the knife could also signify that maybe Hanso was a particularly violent or vicious captain... Anyways, interesting thought, man. @66 The Duf: Not sure how they eventually end up at an airport or whatever, but in the promos for next week's episode (have we decided not to trust the promos or what?), when you hear someone saying "They're calling you the Oceanic Six...", it looks like a cargo door to a big cargo plane is opening up, and they're all in the plane waiting to get off. So somehow they make it to land (Fiji??) that has an airport or military presence etc., then go somewhere from there. Here's what I found to be the most interesting part of the episode (and there were a lot of interesting bits): Keamy opening up the secondary "protocol" and it beind a dharma document. This scene had a bunch of intriguing things for me. Mostly, didnt Keamy say something like "This tells us what Linus is going to do next." Then the captain asks how Widmore would know that and Keamy says "Hes a very smart man." OK, so Widmore has seen Ben's timeline or whatever, and thinks he knows whats up next. Seems obvious, right? (as much as anythign on this show is "obvious"...) But the document is an ink and paper thing, which means it's already probabaly a little dated, so Ben can change things or whatever, and Keamy/Widmore will have no idea what hes up to... So Ben, knowing Widmore has seen his futue or somethign like that, is trying to keep Widmore off balance and change things up. Wait on it... If Widmore "changed the rules" and Ben can now get sick and have his daughter killed etc., well, Ben, knowing this, takes steps to protect himself from the rule change- ie, "recruiting" all of the 815ers onto the flight and purposefully crashing it onto the island and using all of the people on it in his battle against Widmore. In a past episode, Ben said something like "I develop a very serious spine tumor, and then the next day a world-class spinal surgeon falls out of the sky." Etc Etc. Widmore changes the rules, but Ben throws him a curveball by crashing 815 and using each of the survivors to get in Widmore's way or whatever. Would explain Widmore's desire to see all of them dead, his unleashing of Keamy etc. I dont know. In my head, I explained all of this better. Widmore knows Bens future, but he wasnt expecting Ben to recruit all of these other special folks to "help him." Somehow, Abbadon and Eyeliner fit into this theory, depending on who they work for. Alpert recruits Locke for Ben, Abbadon also tries to recruit Locke, but for Widmore, to use against Ben. We'll see how that plays out... I f*cked all of this up. Ignore me.... I need to go take a few hits from Claire's bong and mellow out... One last thing, speaking of claire - anyone notice the bandage on her head? And doesn't Lapidus have one in the same place on his head? It looks like both bandages badly need changing, too, but arent for some reason. ANTB (Anyone notice the bandages?) OK. back to work. xo -chopkins #80. Posted by: chopkins at May 9, 2008 12:00 PM @→ 4. Posted by: Phil ZOOP >was anyone else waiting for Locke to find Jacob and have it be Abbadon saying "You owe me one Locke" I absolutely had this possibility in mind and it may still work out that way, maybe.... → 47. Posted by: Scooby-Dude >Excellent theory. Same could be said for Alpert trying to get John to the island. Alpert and Ben didn't seem too friendly on the island together. Not lately, but originally it was Alpert that met young Ben in the woods by Dharma camp and worked with him leading up to the massacre. → 65. Posted by: shikotee >We've seen Locke and Ben (and maybe Aaron in the future) have very similar origins, and they have been deemed as special? Perhaps both forces/factions are always trying to influence the special ones? Maybe THIS is why the pyschic said Claire had to raise Aaron? Both Locke and Ben were 'special children' who weren't raised by their mother. So, the island, or some person, tries to take steps to make sure that Claire raises Aaron. All to no avail, anyway, as I think we did see Claire die in the explosion of the house - the island just covered it up for a while. We all thought it was very unlikely for Claire to have survived it. Then there was that comment from Miles "That's what you think" after Claire says she's alright later on the day of the explosion. And does all these with 'special children' mothers dying have anything to do with the third trimester deaths of babies and mothers? Hmmm... #81. Posted by: Kristine at May 9, 2008 12:15 PM Who was the actor that played Captain of the ship? He was kinda hot. I was wondering if Claire was dead too given Daddy just walked out of his coffin... Man, that Island has some serious healing powers! #82. Posted by: Connie at May 9, 2008 12:21 PM Duf "clearly, the island itself is sentient somehow. I say this with confidence after seeing Keamy unable to shoot Michael. Nobody is monitoring those incidents, in the sense of "Look, someone is about to shoot Michael! Hit the anti-gun switch, quick!!" Instead, these things just happen, because the ISLAND wants it to be so." hate to admit it but I think you are right. No other explanation. #83. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 12:22 PM OK, somethign I forgot to mention in my half-baked post above. The above theory may also help shed light on who "faked" the crash of 815. If Ben really caused 815 to crash on the island in order to use its passengers to thwart Widmore, this obviously would prompt some kind of response from Chucky Wids. So Wids, in addition to sending out the freighter and keamy to kill everyone, also fakes the plane crash and leaks it to the media. This means that all of Ben's minions on the island clearly cant leave now to do Bens bidding because theyre all supposedly dead. Would raise some serious WTF's among the media to have them all running around, which would raise questions about where they actually were etc., questions Ben and Widmore both dont want asked. So anyways, by faking the crash, Widmore ties Bens hands a little. But, this brings up questions about the 06. Obviously, someone is letting them leave the island, granted under supervision and strict orders not to tell anyone in the "real world" whats actually going on. Who though? Who benefits more from having 6 miracle 815 survivors- Ben or Widmore? It sure seems like Ben does, since hes already using at least one (Sayid) against Wids... but honestly, who knows. Again, I cant put into words whats going through my head. And I'm a "journalist"... arrgh. xo -chopkins #84. Posted by: chopkins at May 9, 2008 12:23 PM Swoozy Kurtz (sp?) (of many things, I always remember her from the show Sisters) was adult Locke’s mom OMG Thank You Lucy!! That was really bugging me. I knew it was someone from some other show! LOL #85. Posted by: Keluha at May 9, 2008 12:23 PM I figured RA becoming upset by the whole Locke/knife thing was because the knife wasn't Locke's, but he lied and said it was. RA got upset because John couldn't be honest about what was really his and what he just wished was his. But I dunno... Maybe the island's ability to be moved is because it's not connected to the ocean floor by a land mass. Maybe it's like one giant lily pad just floatin' around on top of the ocean. In fact, if you jump up and down on it real hard, you can feel it wobbling. And, if everyone were to pile up on one side of it, the uneven weight would cause it to capsize. IMDB is a great tool! I can't believe Horace Goodspeed is the same guy who played Percy Wetmore in "The Green Mile" AND who also played....wait for it.....one of the RAPISTS in "A Time to Kill!" Damn, is that guy a versatile actor or what? #86. Posted by: Trinity at May 9, 2008 12:27 PM Vacc 68 Could the Dharma initiative have originated from the future as a means of averting a disaster that has already occurred or is on the brink of happening? This is really cool. I like this one.That would explain how they know so much. And maybe someone KNEW Charlie was a musician and they programmed the code in the Looking Glass to be a musical score! That's always bothered me. Why music? #87. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 12:29 PM @mac 64 : This episode also threw a curve ball at me where it comes to Abaddon's role in all of this. I originally had him pegged as part of Team Widmore, but now I suspect that's not the case. Which leaves me with a new possibility - that his role is similar to that of Ms. Hawking. Scooby-Dude made a great comment in last week's thread about Hurley and the numbers. He connected the events (Leonard chanting the numbers, the lottery, Australia) as a chain of causality - a sequence of events deliberately put into motion to place Hurley on the Island. This made a lot of sense to me given that we already know that there are people with a vested interest in orchestrating events that will lead people to the Island. Let's take another look at the role Ms. Hawking (and presumably Brother Campbell) had in influencing Desmond's actions which led him to the Island. On the DVD for season three, Damon Lindelof calls Ms. Hawking a "temporal policeman" whose job is to make sure that everyone who is supposed to end up on the island, does. I think the word "EVERYONE" in that statement speaks volumes about LOST. I'm beginning to believe that Abaddon is NOT part of Team Widmore, but part of the same group that Ms. Hawking belongs to, and his job is to help place the necessary people on the Island. This makes even more sense when looking back at his appearances. 1) His visit to Hurley at Santa Rosa seemed intended to motivate Hurley towards returning to the Island. 2) He hand-picked the team of Naomi, Miles, Charlotte, Faraday, and Lapidus to be on Widmore's boat. Perhaps his intention had nothing to do with helping Widmore, any more than Ben's placing Michael on the boat did. 3) He pushes Locke (not just his wheelchair) into signing up for the walkabout - the very event that led him to the Island. #88. Posted by: vacc at May 9, 2008 12:31 PM I found a screencap of Keamy with the 2nd protocol book - and it is a DHARMA logo - the Orchid. #89. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 9, 2008 12:38 PM @57 thanks for your take... he did want to be 'stronger' and that could be what upset richard.... i'm saying the lost boys BETTER answer that question early next season! #90. Posted by: toni at May 9, 2008 12:38 PM # 88 vacc wrote "temporal policeman" By that do you mean Time Lord? Calling all Dr. Who fans...and maybe Ben's "magic box" is actually a TARDIS? So where are the Daleks? EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!! EXTERMINATE!!! #91. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 9, 2008 12:42 PM It's been a long time since I've been back, though no one probably remembers...I was the one that suggested that Ben(then HG) was the others leader and everyone shot my theory down. Water under the bridge. A couple theories though: 1. Could Ben and Locke be secret half brothers? Both premies, both have a mother named Emily. 2. Remember when Des kept trying to flee and he couldn't? Is it possible because the island kept moving and the hatch was responsible? Now that the hatch is blown, they have to rig the island movement another way? Feel free to shoot the theories down, I'm used to it. If someone already suggested these things, sorry. #92. Posted by: Icebergslimm at May 9, 2008 12:44 PM Horace's nose bleed reminded me of the communications guy from the freighter and also Desmond with the bleeding nose once they began traveling through time. Is Horace also "stuck" in time limbo and has no "constant"? #93. Posted by: lostoholic at May 9, 2008 12:45 PM Ok there's no way I can finish. Class is over in 9 minutes (12:52). I have to wait till I get home. But anyway... The first thing that came to my mind when Jack was like, "I think they want us to follow them" was... IDIOTTTTT I HATE JACK. Have I made that clear? Anyway... I LOVE BEN. That was awesome. His facial expression when he said "Destiny, John, is a fickle bitch." Awesome. And yes, that scene with Ben and Hurley sharing the Apollo Bar... Also Awesome. I need to watch it again. I should have ditched school today to send another theory to Vacc, and then he could write that note for me. Haha. =] BE BACK LATER. #94. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 9, 2008 12:46 PM RE: The items Locke picked as a kid As someone mentioned before, I dont think Locke picked the "wrong" items persay. Just that Alpert was not pleased with the selection of the knife. I all the items represented something about what type of person Locke was. Vial of sand/dirt means he's one with the land/island. Compass means kinda the same thing. And the knife perhaps means a leadership role. We know that Ben wasnt always running shit on the island. Widemore was running shit at some point, and I'm sure there have been other leaders. Maybe Alpert was the leader around the time Ben and Locke were kids. Locke's decision of taking the knife was a threat to Alperts leadership. Thats why he got pissed. If you believe that, then you can theorize that either Alpert personally or the island on its on was testing Locke throughout his life. Trying to force him into science and force him to be a follower, not a leader. Locke's refusal to conform shows he is worthy of being a true leader. The freaky deaky black guy (Abbandon) works for Widemore is appears. He persuades Locke to go on the walkabout, thus getting Locke on the island, all in an attempt to overthrow power away from Ben. I'm fairly certain that theres gonna be a big showdown between Ben and Locke for total power. Don't really believe this down-on-his-luck version of Ben. He's too methodical for that. #95. Posted by: Lupi at May 9, 2008 12:58 PM As I read: @67 and other posts: I thought Alpert gave the order to kill all. Before asking Ben if they should pick up Ben's dads body from the van. I think Alpert pre-dates the Black Rock. I think he dates to the four-toed statue. Maybe Abaddon is from the black rock, and works for Widmore. @68: Hanso's relative was on the blackrock. Magnus, I think. Hanso was the originator of Dharma. Is Widmore Dharma? or a third party? 1. Alpert (Whom Ben works for) 2. Dharma 3. Widmore (Keamy, Gault - Widmore gave them the 2 keys for the safe)(Abaddon) 4. I am losing it-arrghh. My chain of thought just took a time trip. @75: What??? You mean dead people can't show back up later! (Locke's mom might have been smokey when she helped sucker Locke out of his kidney :>)) That did change my mind on that matter, thanks. #96. Posted by: mtncbn at May 9, 2008 1:02 PM GRAA, Mac! And great posts so far. A few of my own observations: * I bet davidrh, cecil and I were the only ones (here) who knew the words to the Buddy Holly song! Excellent choice for this ep, by the way. * I wonder who was driving the car that hit Emily. * Locke is back! * Horace was definitely looping - at first I thought it was ME (and Meg)! * Hurley says "we're the craziest". Ha! * When John chose the knife, Alpert knew for sure that he is The One. * Locke throws down a knife in the woods. Same knife?? * When Michael says that Widmore planted the fake crash, Frank says "And I thought I was Mr. Conspiracy Theory, but you got me there." * Hurley sharing with Ben while Locke is in the cabin: priceless. * Locke has always wanted to be chosen for something. He is about to fulfill his dream....or destiny. Or "self-discovery" as hinted by Abbadon. * In high school, Locke was told that he was a natural scientist. But we see him as a man of faith. * When Keamy is looking through the Dharma folder, doesn't he say that Widmore knows "the one place" that Ben is going? * Cindy's Scraf morphed into pearls for this ep. * Oh-woe-is-me-Ben feels that he's been double-crossed. Or maybe he's just pretending. That Ben. -27 Mr. Grimm. I, too, have long thought that reincarnation played a role in this show. -53 AC asked how Frank knows Widmore. It's Widmore's boat, so Frank works for Widmore, no? Which makes me ask: do we know who owns Oceanic Airlines? Could it be... Charles Widmore? Sorry if this has already been established. Last night's ep has my brain looping. #97. Posted by: lovelost at May 9, 2008 1:10 PM @lovelost/97 Mr. Pak owns Oceanic Airlines. (Just speculating...he has to fit into the equation somehow...) #98. Posted by: boodle at May 9, 2008 1:18 PM I think the island is able to change events in both the past and the future. It has co-evolved with its inhabitants over the ages to form a symbiotic organism; the island is both rock and life (similar to Dr. Who's "Tardis"). If you threaten the island or its inhabitants, the island gaia can go back into your past and do something to disrupt your time line, say, send a different man to meet your mother -- edging your father out of the picture. The island and its agents can even continue to visit you and alter your timelines . . . It is limited though in that personal intervention is required. It is not exactly omnipotent . . . The island is even able to respond to a threat by perhaps going wwaaayyyyy back in history and rerouting the magma flows that initially created the island -- effectively "moving the island". This also means that it is pointless to ask what time it is on the island. It is everytime on the island. The island can react in any time -- changing the moment in a round-about-way...... Greg #99. Posted by: Greg Conquest at May 9, 2008 1:24 PM Just like last week, the freighter saga always seems "full of holes". Who the heck is left on it. Crazy Des and crazier Michael? #100. Posted by: dharma boy at May 9, 2008 1:25 PM Maybe boy Locke did pick all the right things. Alpert was in awe, not disappointed, and just wanted to get out of there before influencing the time line. But he had to confirm that Locke is 'the ONE'. #101. Posted by: mtncbn at May 9, 2008 1:25 PM That knife means a LOT more. I believe that knife will mean the end to someone's life, an important person and that is why Richard was pissed when he chose it. He wanted to know for sure if it was future locke that killed this important person and it turned out to be him. There is no school and his intent was never to bring him to a school. The baseball glove is funny because Locke was never an athlete. The comic book wasn't his thing either although the Lost Island reference was strange. The compas was a huge clue with the bearings. That sand is not the ash around the cabin. They are two different things. Believe me that this knife will play a major role in the future. I believe that RA does time travel. He doesn't age because he is his current age and looks the same in the past and future because of his time machine. As for horace, this nosebleed reference is funny because have you seen the movie Primer? They start to hemorage after time travelling so much. Horace was probably a time traveler as well in the past and that is why his recorded dream shows him with his nosebleed. He was making this video in the future from the past. #102. Posted by: Alex at May 9, 2008 1:25 PM One more thing. I think the reason why Jack got sick was the island's revenge for helping Ben who the island also made sick. The island wants to get rid of Ben but Jack intervened so the island made Jack sick. #103. Posted by: alex at May 9, 2008 1:26 PM @ 97 lovelost GREAT question about who owns Oceanic! If it's Widmore, man, that brings up a lot of interesting possibilities... We're led to believe that the O6 get quite hefty settlements from Oceanic for their "troubles." If Widmore owns Oceanic, then he would be paying the O6, right? And if Widmore is bankrolling the O6, how does that play into that theory I posited earlier about who faked the crash etc.?? Nice work, lovelost. You just made/ruined my day... xo -chopkins #104. Posted by: chopkins at May 9, 2008 1:26 PM When Horace and John were about to depart (during building of shack) did Horace tell John "God speed, John"....if so, is this the first reference so far to a deity (other than Ecko)? #105. Posted by: Len at May 9, 2008 1:27 PM ....and the reason only 6 people get off the island is because after the first six leave John, Ben, and Hugo "move the island" so as to prevent anyone else leaving or coming to the island. This is why Jack says that they can never go back...the island is lost forever. #106. Posted by: Len at May 9, 2008 1:33 PM More thoughts piling up in my head: - I think one thing everyone seems to forget when trying to think of who works for/with who (Alpert/Ben, Abbandon/Widemore) is that it is still not clear who is "the good guy" in all of this. The lines between good and evil have been blurred for quite sometime. We assume Widemore is responsible for the cover-up why? Because Ben said so? Jacob could be behind the cover-up, or the island, or Ben, or Alpert. - Also, when trying to figure out who is on whose side, we must also remember that the relationships and alliances are CONSTANTLY changing. A week ago Ben shot Locke. Now they're parading around the jungle together. - Whose older, Ben or Locke? I believe it is Locke. So if thats true, how about this for a sort of timeline of island control: 1) pre-Locke's birth- Alpert is the leader on the island. While still leader, he visits young Locke and feels threatened by his choice of the knife (doesnt want to lose leadership). 2) Sometime after this, probably in Lockes late teens (after he is asked to go to Science camp), Alpert loses control on the island to Widemore/Dharma. Not sure if Widemore and Dharma are on and the same, or if they align together at all. Either way, Dharma is now running shit on the island, building houses and making ranch dressing. 3)This is when young Ben comes to the island, sees his dead mother and goes prancing off into the jungle with Alpert (who in that flashback looked more disheveled. Longer hair, not well put together like EVERY other time we've seen him). 4) Alpert uses Ben to take back control of the island from Dharma/Widemore. Plans works to perfection with the exception that Ben takes over as leader. Alpert leans back for a while, probably still waiting for a chance to take over again. 5) Abbandon works for Widemore. He visits paralyzed Locke so that he will go to the island. This is so Locke can remove Ben from power. So yeah, something like that. We have atleast 3 people competing for power on the island (Widemore/Ben/Locke, with RA and Abbadon working as back-up players or just waiting for their opportunity). That being said, it appears that Ben wins (for the time being anyway) in the future flashes. Or maybe he really is just reporting to Locke. Or he went rouge commando. I dunno. I think i've confused myself with all of this. Also, one thing thats been bothering the shit outta me: Claire HAS to go on a helicopter, no? Desmond told Charlie that he distinctly saw Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter away from the island. I'll be disappointed if this is never mentioned again in the show, and just overlooked and casually explained as, "well, the future changed." Charlie's death = Claire on a heli. If it doesnt happen I want a better explanation than because she was smoking pot with her dead father. #107. Posted by: Lupi at May 9, 2008 1:37 PM @ 97.Posted by: lovelost * When John chose the knife, Alpert knew for sure that he is The One. Same the ONE even!!! Great minds think alike. We were typing at the same time - probably different zones or places tho #108. Posted by: mtncbn at May 9, 2008 1:38 PM The knife that John picked in the presence of RA...is this the same knife that John was whittling with in the Black Rock when Sawyer was locked in with the real Sawyer? #109. Posted by: Len at May 9, 2008 1:38 PM Thanks mac—great review as always! What struck me after watching this episode was that recent events have been like the classic "15" puzzle—each week one or two more pieces have been moved into place to set up the season finale. Random observations: I got the impression that Emily's ice-queen mother did know Richard when she saw him through the nursery window, although not because he's Locke's biological dad...I thought Richard might have been *Emily's* dad who had abandoned Mrs. Locke & Emily, or perhaps Richard & "Mrs." Locke were never married themselves & Emily herself is illegitimate. Just FYI, it was Swoosie Kurtz who played Emily Locke in the episode where she shows up at the toy store where Locke is working. I thought the word to describe Claire in Jacob's cabin was "sultry." It would be easy to imagine her saying, à la Mae West, "Why don't you come up and see me sometime?" Christian's suit must be at the Dharma cleaners. Re Horace in Locke's dream: It was definitely odd how Horace started to repeat himself (Max Headroom-ish?). I wondered if Horace is caught in a time loop of repeating the same few actions & words over & over & Locke happened to drop in. And was it really a dream? We saw Locke wake up...but w/as wacky as things can be on the island it could be equally likely that Locke actually saw Horace, then returned to his sleeping spot, fell asleep again, & then awoke. (I'd wake up too if Ben was staring at me.) Meanwhile, back at the ranch/freighter...Keamy (what a funny name; I thought it was Kearny for the longest time) is turning into The Terminator. IMHO, he looks like a character from a videogame—very flat & two-dimensional. How many factions are on the freighter at this point? How many different motivations did each group/person have? How many people think they're working for one group/person only to find they're not? As far as the heading Sayid was told to follow to get back to the island...maybe the freighter's drifting around the island? Maybe the island is turning in a circle? Maybe the compass heading is only needed to get into the wormhole? → 24. FenwayBen: Book of Laws: I couldn't read what the bottom word on the book's cover was, but I kept thinking it was "Kells" due to the ornate design on the cover. But "Kells" wouldn't make any sense out in the South Pacific... → 25. Posted by: Mister_Grimm: Keamy's heart monitor: Thanks for clarifying that. My initial thought was that it was explosives, but Keamy doesn't seem like the type of person who would sacrifice himself. Anyone else, yes, but not himself. → 26. Sillygirl0630: Ben & Hurley's snack-sharing: Agree; I loved that scene too. It would even make a great commercial for an Apollo bar. ; ) → 37. Skipper: Emily being pregnant: Agreed; she didn't look pregnant at all. And why did Emily freak out & run when the nurse told her she could hold John for the first time? → 57. berkyo: Locke & the knife: Agreed. Has Locke spent his life avoiding his density (pardon me, destiny)? He likes to think of himself as an outdoors guy, a sportsman, a hunter (& who was it in a past episode that told Locke he was a hunter?). But Richard Eyeliner was extremely put out when Locke chose the knife, & Locke's science teacher told him flat-out that he wasn't the sports type. Or is it that the others are trying to force Locke into the scientific cast due to their own blindness & Locke's been struggling to find his real hunter self for his whole life? (In which case it would be ironic that Anthony Cooper, the absent, deceiving, & self-centered crook of a father was the one to get Locke tuned into his inner Rambo.) → 64. mac & 65. shikotee: Which side is Abbadon on? Right now I'm inclined to think that Richard Eyeliner & Matthew Abbadon are on different sides, although I'm not sure that I'd say opposing sides because of the difficulty in figuring out just how many sides there are. Richard & Abbadon do seem to be urging Locke in different directions; Richard was unhappy that Locke picked up the knife while Abbadon made a point of telling Locke that on a walkabout you have nothing but a knife (& your wits). → 66. The Duf: Ferrying the O6: I think the Zodiac boat is just to get Sayid back on the island to be part of the showdown. We also now have Frank & his helicopter on the island, which would be a better choice for rapidly ferrying people. → 68. vacc: What year did Danielle arrive on the island? Does she ever say what year it was? Or does she just say it was 16 years ago? Alex does/did seem to look about 16. Speaking of Alex & Danielle makes me think of the radio transmissions. If Dharma/Hanso/Widmore were keeping the island a secret, why would there be a radio transmission of the numbers in plain view (so to speak)? Sam Toomey & Crazy Leonard were able to pick up the transmission whie in the military...wouldn't there be some interest by the military or amateur radio experts on what this string of repeated numbers meant & where it's coming from? #110. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 9, 2008 1:45 PM Abbadon and Alpert working for Island/Jacob and Widmore respectively. onboard with that... Is Ben's taking orders from Jacob any more manipulative than him taking orders from Locke? Seems Ben can manipulate from whatever position his in... and Locke's always a dupe. Abbadon's appearances have always been recent -- the first time we see him is after Locke's paralyzed.. which is recent compared to seeing Alpert looking the same age when Locke was a baby, through giving Locke the file on Sawyer before heading to the 'temple'. So Alpert seems more 'immortal' or could be that he just has better access to the time portal, and Abbadon. #111. Posted by: Jon at May 9, 2008 1:48 PM I have just read through everyone's comments and did not see anyone mention RA's connection with Ben when he (Ben) was young, while his (Ben's)dad worked for the DI. Does anyone remember that we all thought he still looked the same age during the flash back as he did in real time, and thinking he could not possibly be older than Ben? REMEMBER THAT?!?!?!?! Mac what do you think? Another thing, the orderly that was pushing the wheelchair with Locke, (in the flash back) Isn't that the same guy that came to Hurly in the coo-coo house at the begining of the season, offering to move him to a "better" location? I think that these guys are time travelers, these are like scouts, looking for talent. Perhaps Ethan was one too since he was one that approached Juliet. HMMMMMMMM!!!!!! #112. Posted by: Ice at May 9, 2008 1:49 PM I've only worked my way through half of the posts so I hope I'm not repeating too much, but I wanted to comment about the connection between Locke/Ben since both their mothers were named Emily. I went digging in Lostpedia and I found pictures of both Locke's mother directly after giving birth and Ben's mother giving birth. http://tinyurl.com/6pvcux http://tinyurl.com/6aqnjk They look like they could be the same person. And with what we know about time being skewed, I think it could be a possibility. But I'm sure there are people smarter than me that can prove me wrong. On another note about Ben being connected to the island(I just started reading this blog last season, so it could have been discussed in previous seasons, so forgive me if it has): Has anyone else thought about the connectio that Ben was born early in the third trimester and his mom dying in childbirth and the fact that pregnant women and their babies both die in the third trimester? What if there IS a connection? Would Ben's mother have died BECAUSE of the curse on the pregnant mothers, or did something start with Ben's birth (because he's "special" and connected to the island in some way)? Just some thoughts, feel free to ignore them or pick them apart. #113. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 9, 2008 1:59 PM So wait, who is Locke's dad? The young girl said that the guy she was going to see is twice her age. #114. Posted by: Lost is Found at May 9, 2008 2:01 PM Great minds think alike. We were typing at the same time - probably different zones or places tho → 108. Posted by: mtncbn It depends what you mean by "time" and "zones" and "places"! Interesting that you are mtncbn. I'm in Mountain (mtn)Time and my real initials are CB. (cue eerie music) #115. Posted by: lovelost at May 9, 2008 2:03 PM I had an hour to sit and watch last night’s episode again. The scene was funny before but now it’s hilarious. Hurley and Ben sharing the snack outside Jacob’s cabin? Watch the faces. They’re doing LAUREL AND HARDY!!!!! #116. Posted by: davidrh at May 9, 2008 2:12 PM Okay, I read the recaps and the comments religiously, and i continue to be amazed at the thoughts, ideas and theories posted here. Way beyond what i could deduce on my own, I thank you all for your help and entertainment. But I have not seen anything posted about what I had confirmed for me last night. Keamy is HOT. I know he is a 'bad' guy, or so we think, but gosh, I was mesmerized by the scene when they were strapping on monitor. But, I digress, back to the intelligent conversation.... #117. Posted by: lostinvt at May 9, 2008 2:15 PM @113 Definitely not the same girl playing both moms #118. Posted by: Zup at May 9, 2008 2:33 PM @56: That man did not need to be Locke's father to receive his kidney. Also that man was a con man so who really knows is that was actually Locke's father or not. From the look the grandmother gave Alpert- she recognized him. @55 "Also, if the Island actually DOES move, maybe that's how the Black Rock got to be so far inland. Just came right on up up under it." OOOOOH- goooood one. #119. Posted by: lostrn at May 9, 2008 2:33 PM Easter Egg : Another JINN connection? -------- The JINN Theory resurfaced in last week's thread - largely due to new perspectives offered in posts by Skipper and Appollo. I won't rehash it all here - if you want the background on it, just go back to last weeks thread, and also The Man Behind The Curtain thread. In this weeks episode, there is a picture hanging above the Geronimo Jackson poster in Locke's Locker. Turns out that this is Richard Francis Burton - a late 1800's explorer and author whose biggest claims to fame are traveling in disguise to Mecca, and .... wait for it... .... the complete, uncensored translation of "The Book of One Thousand Nights and A Night" - what we generally refer to as "Arabian Nights". This particular book is replete with tales of humans interacting with Jinn - and these stories also serve as much of the basis for the western concept of Genies! I guess there's no way to knows what the meaning of this "easter egg" really is. Perhaps this is simply a "shout-out" to Jinn theorists, or perhaps it solely relates to Richard Francis Burton as an explorer - since the majority of his travels were circa the Black Rock's journey from Portsmouth.. At any rate, my original Jinn theory still seems to be in the running - and may even be gaining in momentum. #120. Posted by: vacc at May 9, 2008 2:35 PM I think too much emphasis is being placed on young Locke picking the knife and Richard feeling threatened because the knife represents Locke taking leadership away from RA. If you re-watch the scene, Alpert looks almost ecstatic as young Locke reaches for the “Book of Laws”, but then he moves his hand to the side and takes the knife. Young Locke then says to RA “This is mine” or something to that effect. RA becomes upset because young Locke picked the wrong item. He even tells him, “No John, that’s not yours.” The book was the right choice. #121. Posted by: Mister_Grimm at May 9, 2008 2:50 PM @→ 105. Posted by: Len >When Horace and John were about to depart (during building of shack) did Horace tell John "God speed, John"....if so, is this the first reference so far to a deity (other than Ecko)? Horace’s last name is Goodspeed. so maybe it was a play on words....? @Vacc great observation about the Arabian Knights! #122. Posted by: Skipper at May 9, 2008 2:55 PM First time poster, so I apologize if I'm covering well-trodded ground here. The "choose which items belong to you scene" b/w Locke and Alpert was a huge step forward in the show's development. Few things in this show are accidental, including character's names. The real-life Dr. Richard Albert was a well-known Harvard pyschologist, researcher into psychedlic drugs, and Hindu spiritualist who later took the Hindu name "Ram Dass", or Servant of God. He also founded his own organization, called the "Hanuman Foundation" (sound familiar?) On the Season 3 DVD commentary, the Alpert character is described as close to a Panchen Lama, whose key role is to help test and identify the next Dalai Lama- the reincarnation of a Buddhist master so spiritually enlightened that the normal limits of life and death no longer hold sway. Alpert is testing young Locke to see if he is that reincarnation of their spiritual leader they are searching for- his selection of the knife suggests that while Locke has a destiny with the island, his role is as protective warrior, not the Chosen One Albert seeks. Given that the name Abbadon is the biblical name for the Angel of the Abyss, the destructor and the bringer of locusts, I think we are being given significant clues that there are distinct sides of good and evil here. Then again, they could just be screwing with us.... #123. Posted by: Mizzed at May 9, 2008 3:01 PM @Len - 105 - Horace did say "God speed", but wasn't that his last name, too? Horace Godspeed? I thought it was just a fun play on words. @Len -106 - I like the theory of moving the island causes the Oceanic 6 to not be able to find their way back.... but... Hugo is part of the Oceanic 6, so he can't be one of the ones moving the island... unless there are 2 Hugos (cue eery music). @114 Lost is Found. Couldn't Anthony Cooper have been twice Emily Locke's age? It seemed like Emily was supposed to be a highschooler- that would only put Cooper 16-17 years older than her. So when Susie Kwooz is 50, Cooper is 67. Or, he's really only a few years older than her and the mom exaggerates that he is "twice her age" when he's not Literally twice her age. Or Richard Alpert IS the father of John Locke. One other thought on Alpert. High School John Locke seems to recognize the name Richard Alpert when science teacher mentions Mittelos to him. When Locke & Alpert are perusing Sawyer's file on the island does Alpert tell Locke his name? Wouldn't Locke have realized... dude... you're the same guy that visited me when I was 5 and then tried to recruit me when I was in high school and now 40 years later we meet on this island and you look the same? PS - Emily Linus died, Emily Locke was alive in her 50's (or older) John & Ben are not half brothers. #124. Posted by: Sock...Puppet...Guy at May 9, 2008 3:12 PM Yikes, this made my head hurt. Most of my comments have been made by previous posters, but I feel compelled to write them anyway. ** I thought Locke choosing the knife told RA that he was not The One, but The Other. (no pun intended). I think more than one person is being reincarnated (one good and one bad) and RA wanted John to be the one he wasn't. ** I think Christian Shepard is scooby-dooing Locke. When Jacob said "help me" I think that was the real Jacob. The Christian 'I can speak for him' speech reeked of "I have Jacob shackled up and am taking over". ** Jacob and Smokey are on opposing sides, which may mean RA and Abbadon are on different sides. ** RA gave Locke the folder on Sawyer to help him get him to kill Kevin Tighe. That means maybe he is on the opposite team as Ben and plotting a coup? ** Whoever is taking over Christian's body may be different than Smokey. Or they just wanted the Jack daddy thing to go forward. ** Claire looked like she'd had a few roofies slipped into her drink. I say she's there under the influence a la Ethan (my man!) ** If no one but claire can raise Aaron and 'Christian' is trying to separate them (indeed has already), then it reinforces my thinking that he's a Jacob imposter. ** I love dejected Ben. He'll bounce - he always does. #125. Posted by: EthansGrrl at May 9, 2008 3:16 PM Locke in the locker...hee hee...I just got that...that's funny... They shoulda stuffed him in the John...now THAT woulda bin priceless... #126. Posted by: ransomjackson at May 9, 2008 3:28 PM Upon a rewatching of last night's episode, I really got the feeling that Abaddon is a grown-up Walt. At the time, I didn't know that this was already a theory put forward by some fans, but the way that Abaddon continually said "Mr. Locke" just smacked of Walt. It would also make sense as to why Locke needs to take boy-Walt under his wing, so to speak. He "owes him one." Finally, when Locke tells Walt his "secret" in Season 1, he could have told him about the walkabout, such that boy Walt would have known about it when he grew up to be Abaddon. #127. Posted by: Griff at May 9, 2008 3:28 PM Great theory Griff... But wouldn't grown up Walt be "living" in 2030 in his real time though? If Walt was born in 1994, and Abbadon looks mid 30's or older, then he's from at least 20 years in the future of our story line. Or maybe Walt / Abbadon has figured out how to not be "enslaved by time and space." #128. Posted by: Sock...Puppet...Guy at May 9, 2008 3:38 PM 77. Posted by: LostedIt regarding the choice of the knife. That's a good point. Why do you think Alpert seems to be annoyed - even angry -instead of just disappointed? That he was wasting his time? #129. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 3:50 PM "Name games: Does the secondary protocol having a Dharma logo imply Widmore = Dharma = Science? In that case, Christian and Jacob (and Aaron?) = Faith. Where would John Locke fit into that equation?" I keep trying to do this too, to the extent that I now have a notebook for Lost - Come on, there must be a few ohers that has one too.:-) But I can never get it to work. John would be Faith. So Alpert would be Science? and Abadon would be faith? #130. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 3:55 PM Great posts and comments! I am wondering about the Aaron " he is where he is supposed to be" comment. Is that with Sawyer? He rescued him screaming in the tree and his voice stops his crying. Certainly Sawyer is not the most paternal of characters but,neither is Kate! He seemed very protective of Claire in the last couple of episodes. Did Kate promise something to Sawyer that had to do with Aaron? Why did Charlie say Jack should not raise him(this is before he turns into a drunken junkie! )Who should be Aaron's papa? Perhaps Aaron needs to go back to the Island to find him. Sawyer may find redemption in fatherhood! The fact that he killed Lockes' father is interesting too. He also met Christian in an Australian bar and delivered a fatherly message from him to Jack. OK, maybe I am Sawyer obsessed. Just throwing it out there! #131. Posted by: Kara Jane at May 9, 2008 3:57 PM @129/berkyo - Regarding Alpert being annoyed rather than just disappointed: Not that I believe Locke is/isn't "the one", if such a person does even exist in Lost-land, but as far as this story goes it is relevant. Have you ever seen a zealot being told something they believe in isn't so? If Alpert truly believes Locke is someone he's looking for, when he doesn't prove Alpert's beliefs he would be frustrated, even angry, that Locke refuses to fulfill his "destiny" as Alpert believes it to be. This isn't the first time people have believed something of Locke where he "failed" to live up to it. When he was brought to the Others' camp by Ben (I think that's how it happened) he was told to kill his father if he wanted to know everything Ben knew. When he wouldn't, Ben (or someone) said he wasn't ready to fulfill his place in the Others' camp and was left behind with his father. So this testing of Locke is an ongoing thing, not just a random occurrence in his youth or at a hospital recovery center. #132. Posted by: LostedIt at May 9, 2008 3:59 PM "Widmore changes the rules, but Ben throws him a curveball by crashing 815 " You know I have thought this too. That Ben crashed the plane. Because if Ben knows everything - mostly- he would know that Desmond was going to not push the button that day. If he wanted to HIDE the island, he would STOP Desmond. But he doesn't. So he therefore wanted the plane to crash. To get the surgeon ;to fix the tumor. #133. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 4:03 PM GRAA – Mac I’ve been thinking about the 305 bearing as well. It would have to be reversed as people have said. Unless, the way that the ‘Island’ is hidden from the rest of the world, is if the space/time around were ‘wrapped’ around itself in extra dimensions (or perhaps even less dimensions, i.e. no time). This could possibly explain why they go in and out on the same bearing. Some people keep saying this, moving the island in time. Time and space are intertwined; this is the basis of Einstein and Minkowski physics. So moving it in time means you’d have to move it in space, unless you mean move it in time while it stays in the same place – but this is pointless. @ Jin’s flashlight That’s what it was, nice one, Geronimo Jackson! Couldn’t make it out.. The magazine on the table had an interesting cover and title. Don’t remember the title exactly, Mystery something.. The cover though, showed two islands one on top of the other, with the one on top in the sky. The guy on the cover was saying: “Hidden land!” or something along those lines. I DO think Johns’ mum recognized RA, she was visibly disturbed by seeing him. I don’t know what the connection between them is, but NO ONE can be stupid enough to light a ciggy in a hospital, in front of a prematurely born baby, in a freakin’ (forgot what its called) life support chamber! Regardless of the decades’ fads. The only reasonable reason she would, it to calm her shocked nerves with the soothing taste of filter-less cigs. mmmmm… ILBLxx.. I totally agree with your hate of Jack and love of Ben. I was fine with Jack, but this is one cock-ups too many! “I think they want us too follow them..” ..really! And the cliché! “Doctors make the worst patients!” Those two deserve each other… I don’t usually vent like this but I’ve enough of both.. And the image of Jack from last season keeps popping in my head: “WE HAVE TO GO BAAACK!” - hahaha #134. Posted by: Apollo at May 9, 2008 4:14 PM Some Questions: Anyone have a theory about boy John drawing a picture of Smokey? Did Sayid say the only way to save OUR lives was to get those people off the island or did he say THEIR lives? If it's the fomer, course correction anyone? Why couldn't Christian Shephard save time and just tell Locke how to save the island from the outset instead of making him figure out the crucial question first? Is it a fate vs. freewill thing? More on fate vs. freewill and some parallels from prior episodes: Ben to Jack: "I want you to want to save my life." Locke: Don't ever tell me what I can't do. Christian Shephard to Sawyer: "It's fate. Some people are just supposed to suffer. That's why the Red Sox will never win the damn Series." Jack: "I don't believe in destiny" Locke: "Yes, you do. You just don't know it yet." Also, both Locke and Jack are super stubborn. Is that stubbornness their freewill getting in the way of their fate? #135. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 9, 2008 4:14 PM One of the things I found interesting was the "test" Richard Alpert used on young Locke. It's virtually the same as part of the process used to find ascertain if a particular kid is the reincarnation of a past dalai lama or buddhist saint. #136. Posted by: John at May 9, 2008 4:18 PM THIS POST IS FROM LAST WEEKS FORUM 389. Posted by: vacc at May 8, 2008 9:17 PM Just found this while reading this weeks forum (scooby dude reference)and I wanted to say thanks for the great threads of thought!!!! I try but I get so.....lost. It helped connect a lot of things for me. Now all I have to do is remember them and not listen to anybody els. #137. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 4:29 PM Just throwing this out there, tell me what you think. Jack is working for Widmore somehow. #138. Posted by: BigNameJames at May 9, 2008 4:34 PM Random Thoughts: ==========o @25 Mister_Grimm theorized: >3)Emily's mother confirmed that Richard Alpert is not the father when the nurse asked if he was. If I recall correctly, Emily's mother said she had no idea who Richard Alpert was, but since she doesn't know who the baby's father is, this does not rule him out. ==========o So if the DHARMA logo on the second protocol definitely links Widmore to DHARMA, and we know from the culminating video of the Lost Experience that DHARMA is doing evil (even though they think it is triage), then the Others must indeed be the good guys. Right? ==========o Was it a lie last ep when Frank Lapidus says he won't try to penetrate the island ADIZ at night, which he then promptly does in this ep? Or is incoming different from outgoing? ==========o Oh, and Erik totally redefined the word "idiot" last night. Oops, wrong show - I told you they were random thoughts... ==========o #139. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 9, 2008 4:37 PM @vacc Ms. Hawking and Abaddon as temporal policemen. Great concept. @mizzed Great post and thanks for the info. @berkyo I can't get the names to work either, especially because so many are philosophers and I'm not sure where that fits in between science and faith. Horace dream sequence - I didn't think it was a loop. I thought it was more like repeated future flashes from his time to the present island time to make sure Locke got his message. Maybe he had to future flash a bunch of times because in 12 years there were a lot of course corrections so the timing might be off by a few seconds. But then again it was a dream so never mind. Claire's strange trip might have been connected to the implant/vaccinations Ethan gave her. #140. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 9, 2008 4:38 PM I understand that some people see the view that Jack is an idiot for thinking "I think they want us to follow them" when The Sat Nav is thrown to the losties but lets rewind. I'm pretty sure that Frank secretely packed the Sat Nav as he was firing up the helocopter, therefore he must have been doing something in order to help the losties as he really didn't want to go on this mission. If he threw that Sat Nav then I guess he may have sent it in order to give the losties (if Jack manages to work it out) a huge advantage of hiding from Keemey and possibly puting a stop to his island extermination mission. However we don't know who threw the Sat Nav but its more than likely it was Frank, and I believe he wants Keemey to fail. But I do think that Jack's last line was particularly lame, especially after the whole business of morse code message. Come on Jack smell the Dharma bacon. Maybe Frank will communicate with Jack somehow. Any thoughts? #141. Posted by: AC at May 9, 2008 4:50 PM A few thoughts on Mittelos and Dharma… I wonder if Mittelos Bioscience and Dharma are competing entities as are Ben Linus and Charles Widmore. Clearly Mittelos was around long before the purge, as they attempted to recruit Locke when he was 16 (and possibly when he was 5, although Richard Alpert did not indicate what the name of the “special” school we was representing was). So Mitellos would have been around long before Ben was the leader of the “others.” Perhaps the “hostiles” were actually Mittelos and the island was being shared (whether willingly or unwillingly) by both Dharma and Mittelos until the Purge when Ben and Mittelos took over. Perhaps the Dharma food drops are actually coming from Mittelos. If this has already been said, I apologize. I’ve only made it through the first 80 posts. #142. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 9, 2008 4:52 PM 97. Posted by: lovelost I am afraid I too am old enough know the words.....I have been singing it all day! Did you have a poodle skirt? And Coral lipstick? and I fuzzy cardigan? (Which I would never have worn in the rain no matter how upset I was.) #143. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 4:55 PM 97 I wonder who was driving the car that hit Emily. And should we be concerned with the other body in the hallwaywhen they were wheeling Emily in? Like Jack's wife and Shanon's dad in the same ER? It looked like a female to me. #144. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 4:59 PM long time reader, first time posting. it seems to me that what the interchange w/ Alpert at the foster home, the discussion with the science teacher and the chat with Daniels from the Wire (Abaddon is it?) have in common is Locke refusing to accept his destiny until it is forced upon him. he looked at the Book of Laws an awfully long time before he just glanced at and grabbed the knife. Alpert wanted him to take the book of laws and admit his role as a born leader, Locke refused to out of stubbornness (nobody tells me what i can't do!). same thing with the science teacher, Alpert tries again to get Locke to embrace his destiny, but he refuses out of stubbornness. Abaddon (sp?), same thing. he shuns the idea of a walkabout (i think Abaddon knew that whatever plane Locke was on would crash on the island), and it takes until Locke hits rock bottom that he finally decides to embrace his destiny and do what he was always meant to do. remember, it was Alpert who encouraged Locke to get Sawyer to kill Cooper so Locke could take his rightful place on the island. just a thought. #145. Posted by: AB at May 9, 2008 5:09 PM → 110. Posted by: Alaïs_ "Speaking of Alex & Danielle makes me think of the radio transmissions. If Dharma/Hanso/Widmore were keeping the island a secret, why would there be a radio transmission of the numbers in plain view (so to speak)? Sam Toomey & Crazy Leonard were able to pick up the transmission whie in the military...wouldn't there be some interest by the military or amateur radio experts on what this string of repeated numbers meant & where it's coming from?" This bothers me too. I've asked it before but haven't gotten an answer yet. Except the theory from last week by Vacc. #146. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 5:12 PM lostpedia.com/wiki/Cabin_Fever : "Book of Laws" = the holy book of the Bahá'í Faith "The test given to young Locke by Richard Alpert strongly resembles the Tibetan Buddhist ritual used to confirm a reincarnated tulku (the Dalai Lama being the most widely known)." "This process was portrayed in the movie Kundun." Question: Who would Locke be the reincarnation of? "why did Emily freak out & run when the nurse told her she could hold John for the first time?" Because, then she would bond with her baby, and never be able to let go. It seems "obvious" in retrospect that Claire died when the mercs attacked the Benville compound, when her house exploded and she was buried, with just her shoes sticking out (Wizard of Oz ref). From then on, the "claire" we have seen is some kind of apparition, like Jack's Dad. Miles has been aware of this all along. The Locke childhood backstory has Abbadon and Richard playing similar roles, implying that they are maybe somewhat on the same team. But we have known Abbadon as playing on the "opposing" team. So, maybe all the players are basically on the same team, but with various factions conflicting variously at different times? Michael could not kill himself in NYC because the "laws of the universe" in operation at that time and place made it impossible. Ben thought (mistakenly) that the same principle would protect Alex. The same principle protected Michael on the ship from Keamy's gun (too bad for Mike). The same kind of "law" made it "impossible" for Ben to kill Widmore in the penthouse - not some whim or preference or just some rule of a game... Is Ben truly demoralized, or pretending? Does he end up working under Locke, in the future when Sayid is working under Ben, or do things change again? I'm going to be peeved if we never learn how the air-drop re-supplies were happening during Hatch times. #147. Posted by: kethd at May 9, 2008 5:18 PM Ok, I'm not sure if this sounds totally crazy or not, but I've got this theory going on that Ben and Locke are half-brothers. After all, they both had blonde mothers named Emily. I know that Locke meets up with his crazy mum later on, waaay after Ben's mother died giving birth to him, but, hey. It's LOST. Anything can happen. Jack got three minutes of screen time, and he's still being an asshole. The way Juliet was scolding him, she sounded just like his mother. Cute. They make such a good couple. Two more character deaths. I knew they'd off Dr. Creepy the moment the Morse Code message was mentioned, though. Huh. You know what I think? I think every single character on this show is going to die, and that's how they're going to end it. Wouldn't that be such a LOST thing to do? Because they can always come back as Walking Island Dead, you know. Did anyone else think Claire looked really stoned out in Jacob's cabin? Ben's line about fate being a fickle bitch was rather surprising to me. Well, I suppose even bug-eyed masters of deception have to get their anger out somehow. The candy bar scene had me in fits of laughter, for absoloutly no reason. I think it reminded me of a friend of mine... if she wants something you're eating, she'll simply stare at you in the same way that Ben stared at Hurley. It was funny. I think the LOST writers need to know that birth scenes are getting really boring now. I mean, how many have we seen? Like, five? That's all for now. Ciao! #148. Posted by: Kate at May 9, 2008 5:23 PM 125 ** I think Christian Shepard is scooby-dooing Locke. When Jacob said "help me" I think that was the real Jacob. The Christian 'I can speak for him' speech reeked of "I have Jacob shackled up and am taking over"." I havne't seen anyone mention this, But I thought so too. Whenever we see Jack's dad he is in the same black suit and white sneeks. Last night he was in different clothes and "seemd" different to me. And Claire was obviously a bit out of her usual persona. Ben's Jacob did say Help Me to Locke. These two cabin dweller's seemed like they were playing at being someone else. And Jack's dad doesn't TELL locke anything. He asks leading questions and gets Locke to tell HIM why he is there. #149. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 5:28 PM Re 18. Posted by: Dan About the Horace loop. Here's something interesting I found on another site: "Horace Goodspeed is seen cutting down a tree, only to have that tree reappear uncut, which he then cuts down again in a seemingly repetitive loop. This is an apparent reference to the myth of Sisyphus, whom the gods punish by forcing him to push a boulder up a hill, only to have the boulder roll back down for him to push again in a eternally repeating loop." The Myth of Sisyphus introduces the philosophy of the absurd: man's futile search for meaning, unity and clarity in the face of an unintelligible world devoid of God and eternity. #150. Posted by: IdMonster at May 9, 2008 5:29 PM Something that's been bothering me; could be a plot hole or just something I'm not understanding: How long has Widmore being looking for the island? I ask because of the following: Widmore is connected to Dharma. The 2nd protocol seems to confirm that. Dharma was dropping food to Desmond while he was in the hatch. So therefore the Dharma Initiative knew precisely where the island was. So I would think that would kill the theory that the Oceanic 815 wreckage was washed away by the island moving. *Of course if this as already covered, please forgive me. It's been a while since I've been able to post. #151. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at May 9, 2008 5:31 PM 127. Posted by: Griff Good one!!!! And boy Walt , before Locke opens the hatch, touches Locke's hand and reacts. he says "Don't open it" #152. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 5:32 PM Re: the test that Locke took. Remember when Walt was captured and he got to have like 3 mins. with his dad. Didn't Walt tell his dad that they made him take "tests"? (anyone remember that in season 1, please confirm) ***not necessarily a spoiler, just my thoughts about what will happen*** Once Sayid gets to the island he'll set Jack straight about the Sat. phone and save the day. Don't worry, dumb Jack won't be following anyone anywhere. Sit your ass down and let your scar heal, jack. #153. Posted by: Skipper at May 9, 2008 5:44 PM → 139. Posted by: Cecil Rose Oh, and Erik totally redefined the word "idiot" last night. Oops, wrong show - I told you they were random thoughts... LOL - About time the women used their smarts on that THAT island! #154. Posted by: berkyo at May 9, 2008 5:45 PM Re: Items that RA presented to Locke correct me if I'm wrong, please. But didn't a couple of those items belong to Locke. I thought he gave Sayid (or Jack or one of the main players) a compass during season 1. the knife is probably his since he has so many. The sand could be his if he eventually won/earned the island. I dunno, I just felt like it was a trick. I felt like RA was putting on a show to have a reason to storm out. If RA acted like Locke picked the right thing then he wouldn't have an explication for why Locke couldn't enter the "imaginary" school. So RA had no choice but to "act" like Locke made the wrong decision and storm out. meanwhile, he gathered the info. that he came for in the first place. thoughts? #155. Posted by: Skipper at May 9, 2008 5:50 PM It completely doesn't matter but I have to say that Wee Locke (love that name Mac) was HUGE for being 3 mos early. Just had to point that out even though it really doesn't matter. Also, Mac- great review this week! I have recommended this site to several of my friends who are LOST watchers :) #156. Posted by: lostrn at May 9, 2008 6:02 PM Did you have a poodle skirt? And Coral lipstick? and fuzzy cardigan? → 143. Posted by: berkyo Absolutely! And black horn-rimmed glasses, pedal-pushers (aka capris), fitted blouses, Cindy's scarf, bowling shirts, flats... hey, this all sounds very familiar. "Everything old is new again." Makes me want to take another look in Ben's closet. #157. Posted by: lovelost at May 9, 2008 6:03 PM Might not mean anything--But here it goes anyway... I've always been obsessed with "PI"(3.1415926....) I was fooling around on a Scientific calculator (Texas Instruments TI-8_?) I decided to plug in 4815162342 and divide that by the PI button...What i got was a whole number...For those of you unfamiliar with "PI" it is a never-ending, irrational #...So, for the amount of decimal places for PI stored on that calculator, i thought that was kinda odd...Probably just coincidence...I don't know what do u think? #158. Posted by: Shayde at May 9, 2008 6:04 PM 151. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) You just blew my mind. If Widmore is Dharma, why doesn't he know where the island is? I don't think it's a plot hole but I'd love to hear a theory. All I can think of is either the hatch meltdown did something so that Widmore lost track of the island or the 2nd protocol was somehow not Widmore's protocol. #159. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 9, 2008 6:07 PM Hey guys, who exactly is still on the freighter? We know Michael and Desmond are, but is there anyone else from the crew that isn't either dead, on the island, or on the way to the island?!? #160. Posted by: FenwayBen at May 9, 2008 6:17 PM Ok, so I had a few thoughts, 1. About the DI letting Danielles' signaL go for years before they were killed, to disable it someone would have had to venture outside of the protective gates and possibly meet up with the smoke monster and "the hostiles" . If they knew it was blocked anyway they wouldnt have bothered. Maybe they also wanted to stay hidden "others style". 2. What the heck with the messing of the format I thought we were all done with the flashbacks??? When the show started and the lady was wearing the poodle skirt I thought " someone is going to a costume party?" I guess the writers are doing some sort of forshadowing with the whole crazy time jumps n such but threw me off. 3. Seriously can someone cut John Locke a break he has got a raw deal since friggin' birth when his mother ran out of the room. I read this somewhere here, I sure hope he becomes a super hero he deserves it. 4. RAlpert is not John's Dad, his real Dad sought him out because he knew he would be match for the kidney. If he didnt know for sure that was his son why randomly seek out some lady he conned 40+ years earlier and look for a Kidney. There were 100s of cons and he didnt have alot of time. 5, I agree Keamy is hot, ive thought that since Mystery Alaska 6. Jack is still hot too, I'm tired of the Kate & Jack thing already who cares if they hook up anymore. Jack is more interesting a little tortured about his leadership abilities. Ive never liked Kates bad girl back story ( I fast forwarded thru it all ) so I could do without her altogether. Juliet is so much more interesting. #161. Posted by: JaneSweetz at May 9, 2008 6:23 PM Ok so let's say Christian is not a manifestation or a Djinn or Smokey or anything. What if Jacob brought Christian back to life? Actually, no, that doesn't make any sense. The only reason I say that is because Christian's body was missing from his casket in season 1, so it's possible that Jacob stole it, and yeah, here he is. Using him to help him? That wouldn't explain the future flashes though. @ Skipper - 51 The Truman Show theory has been around for a while now. I was thinking that when the series just began. I've also read it many places. You make a good point, but it doesn't explain a lot of things that are going on. @ AC - 53 Maybe because he's working for him? Unless you mean how did he know about him to begin with. Considering the fact that he keeps saying "Mr. Widmore was the only one that believed me" blah blah blah. So how did he know Widmore to begin with? I've come to a conclusion (one out of a billion): Abaddon = STALKER. @ Skipper - 56 If Emily Locke slept and fell in love with Anthony Cooper... then that's just GROSS. I mean, Richard isn't that bad for an ageless guy... but Anthony Cooper... EW. Ok so I think we can assume one thing based on tonight's episode -- The purge was 12 years ago. Which means a few things: 1. The Purge was 12 years ago (broken record?) 2. Alex was 4 years old, Rosseau was on the island... somehow they survived. 3. If at the time of the purge Ben was "the chosen one", they wouldn't be looking for Locke because Locke was 6 a long time before that. At the time of the Purge, Locke must have been 36 years old (48-12=36). I think we're underestimating the writers in regard to how the series is going to end. I have a feeling they're going to find a way to answer every question that is asked... they're just... cool like that. =] Does anyone think Widmore was "the one" before Ben was? I guess this episode answered the question about why Widmore doesn't know where the island is, and whenever it moves, he needs to find it again. I only got upto 71 so far... so sorry if I repeated anything. #162. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 9, 2008 6:28 PM Why the threatening music when baby John was taken away from the mother after his birth? The nurse seemed nervous. Did they do something to him? Did Emily eventually find out? Her mother seems to know what's going on. Is that why she couldn't bear to hold him? Were Locke, Ben and Aaron not supposed to be raised by their biological mothers, for some reason? When Keamie asked Michael if he knew his name and Michael said What?, for a moment I was sure Keamie would go: Say what one more *** time, I dare you, I dubbledare you ***, say what one more time! Notice how Ben sleeps with his hands on his chest? Slithery :-D #163. Posted by: robislost at May 9, 2008 6:30 PM @Cecil, regarding Erik's idiocy: Oh....my....God. I was like, NO!!! You retard! NOOOOOO! Although the women did play him quite masterfully, the bottom line is that their argument for why he should give it up made NO SENSE!!! #164. Posted by: Jin's Flashlight at May 9, 2008 6:41 PM Several have suggested that Locke grabbing the knife in his test shows his stubbornness and rejection of his true destiny. However, the whole purpose of administering this type of spiritual test to a young child is that they do not have the capacity to accept or reject anything- their true spiritual identity is revealed via the objects selected. Locke's whole back story is of being disconnected, lost and afraid. He is literally reborn after the crash, and becomes the force of nature, hunter and warrior he had always dreamed he would be. The test he took as a 5 year old is a foreshadowing of his true destiny, although perhaps not the answer Alpert was searching for. It is doubtful there ever was a "special school", or later, a "special science camp". If Locke had passed the earlier test as a child, he would likely have been taken directly to the island. Note the similiarity betweeen these scenes and Juliet's recruitment to the Mittelos Facility in Portland, which turns out to be "not quite in Portland". When we were first introduced to "The Others" in Season 1, their primary interest was in the survivor's children. This search for a special child has been a dominant theme throughout the show. For unknown reasons, the island is rejecting any attempt for that special child to be born on the island, terminating every pregnancy in death. Ben's attempts to fix that problem via "science" (i.e. Juliet) failed- perhaps part of the reason that his connection to the island seems to becoming unraveled. Alpert seems to be the center figure in the search, but using spirtual, not scientific methods. He is a leader, but never the primary leader- instead he fills more of the teacher/advisor role. He seems to connect the past to the possible future in a way similiar to Obi-Wan in Star Wars or Morpheus in Matrix. #165. Posted by: Mizzed at May 9, 2008 6:47 PM I loved this episode, and I love you guys. I started to jot down my very profound thoughts about the similarities/differences between Abbadon and Alpert and rushed over here to post, only to find you all on the same topic. Abbadon and Alpert could both be working for Jacob, as their actions seem to promote Locke going to the island. And I think it’s a great theory that Locke didn’t choose “wrong” when he went for the knife, but Alpert was upset because it indicated something about Locke’s destiny that he didn’t want to be true. So then, let’s assume that the island was still in search of the Chosen One. But why didn’t our island headhunters try to recruit Walt off-island? Or did the island loose patience with one-on-one interviews and try a new method of recruitment? Flight 815 brought a whole planeload of potential reincarnated Lamas (Locke, Walt, Aaron). Did the island/Jacob arrange it that way? Locke and Aaron and Ben have daddy issues, while Walt’s absent father came to get him (several times). Did that change Walt’s destiny as potential island overlord/successor? Is that why Ben/Jacob allowed Walt to leave the island? Missing Pieces #6: Ben and Juliet discuss the freaky behavior of kidnapped bird-killing Walt Juliet: This is your responsibility. You were the one who wanted him here. Ben: Jacob wanted him here. He's important. He's special. Juliet: He's dangerous. On the other hand, if Alpert and Abbadon are on opposing sides, I can’t wait for their supernatural showdown, a la Gunfight at the Lost Corral. ************************************** Regarding Locke’s dream: While it’s true that Goodspeed’s nose was bleeding, he could not have been time-traveling (as our Des did), because Goodspeed did not have a physical self in the current time period for his consciousness to jump into. So this was a dream. Only this was not just a dream, but a vision. Knowledge given to Locke by Jacob or the island. The obvious message was to find Goodspeed, who had the map of the cabin in his pocket. But I think the other intent of the vision was to forewarn Locke of the ability to time-travel and the side effect of the bloody nose (so he could recognize it in the future?) The looping effect was an indicator of time-travel. Because it’s interesting and eerily similar, here is Locke’s Season One vision of Boone and Emily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NctGNhkOmk Notice the phrase “Don’t tell me what I can’t do!” that Locke also uses in the current episode to tell off his teacher. Young Locke’s smoke monster artwork indicates he’s had vision/dreams from the get-go. ************************************** From a narrative viewpoint, is it true that the only characters who have flashed-back to before their birth are Locke and Ben? I guess you could include Walt and Aaron, but their parents are characters also, so their prebirth flashbacks were from their parents’ perspectives. ************************************** While I was watching the Missing Pieces Mobisodes again, I thought I’d post some transcript that relates to recent episodes: Missing Pieces #1: Jack and Christian on the beach Christian: Would you do me a favor? If you and Sarah ever have a kid, try to treat him a little better than I treated you. Jack: No pressure, right? Missing Pieces #3: Jack and Ben play chess Ben: Well it's not entirely up to me. If the island doesn't want you to leave, it won't let you. Jack: What the, the island's going to sink the sub? Ben: No. No. I promise you I won't do anything to prevent you from getting home. But if you do leave this place, the day may come when you want to return. Jack: Never. Ben: I've learned never to say never. And if that day comes, I hope you remember this conversation. Missing Pieces #7: Doc Arzt doesn’t want to go to the caves Hurley: Maybe we should, like, trust him (Jack). Arzt: Why? You tell me, because he’s a doctor? Is that what qualifies him for leadership here? How do we know he’s not a mental case? Missing Pieces #11: Jin is disgusted by his golf game Jin: (in despair, on a picturesque hilltop on the island) I’m so alone. I’m so alone. ************************************** As was already stated, the Dharma logo on the “Secondary Protocol” was the same as the logo on Ben’s parka/Dharka when he popped up in Tunisia. And it’s speculated to be the Orchid. So, Charles Widmore knew where Ben would be going and it’s the Orchid (maybe the temple)? I think Batmanuel will be appearing in more than flashbacks real soon. ************************************** Maybe Christian was wearing the suit and sneakers in the other scenes because that’s how Jack thinks of him. And he’s wearing the khaki shirt here, because it’s Claire’s perspective? Just a thought. And I can’t remember what he was wearing last week when he was holding Aaron. ************************************** No way is Richard Alpert the father of John Locke, in this or any lifetime. Other than the very good reasons previously discussed, there is the basic fact: Nestor Carbonell is hot, and Terry O’Quinn is not. Although I’m sure Swoosie Kurtz wouldn’t mind a little flashback action ;) #166. Posted by: Clementine at May 9, 2008 7:06 PM So do you think Ben's going to lead John to the Orchid to time shift the island to move it (move it in time and/or spacetime)? Thanx for the info whoever posted (I forget now) that the protocol Keamy opened had an Orchid logo on it. That seems very significant. I also read on LostPedia that the device strapped to Keamy's arm appears to be a modified Korg MA-30 metronome. Must be how he stays in sync with the timeshift to the island or as someone said, his constant. ??? #167. Posted by: IdMonster at May 9, 2008 7:18 PM I have some kind of dyslexia with Abaddon's name. One 'b', two 'd's! I'll get it right eventually. By the way, did you all hear that the 2 hours of programming lost to the writer's strike this year will be added to the Season 5 and 6 finales? Finales should always be 2 hours. Good call, Damon and Carlton! #168. Posted by: Clementine at May 9, 2008 7:32 PM @158 Shayde wrote : 4815162342 divided by pi on a scientific calculator resulted in a whole number. While that would be cool if it were true - it simply isn't. I think there are several ways to explain how you came up with this 1) You are pressing the wrong button on your calculator 2) Your batteries are running low 3) Your calculator is in a mode that does not display the decimal portion of fractional numbers. #169. Posted by: vacc at May 9, 2008 7:48 PM Meg....It took me whole bottle of wine to get through all the posts...whew! When Locke finally meets his mother at the toy store, how do we know that is his real mother....maybe it was all part of a long con. There's no proof...or at least I don't remember any right now...lol. I think Ben and Locke are related. #170. Posted by: So_Lost at May 9, 2008 7:50 PM Who wants to bet that Alpert and Abbadon have four toes? #171. Posted by: stevenm at May 9, 2008 8:03 PM @158. Posted by: Shayde the numbers divided by pi WHOA - that's freaky did it in Excel ( at least 16 decimal places) and it came out even, ending in 777(!!). Widened the cell, still no decimal values. Set the decimal to 16 places, and it showed ...777.0385 and 12 zeros. Multiplied that by pi, and got the numbers back, with a decimal and 16 zeros. @162 Anthony Cooper may have been a lot different at 30years old. @162 your point 2 Alex was 4 years old at the purge, I agree. But how is that pre-boss ben(maybe late teens or early 20's from my recollection of the van dad killing - maybe older)kidnapped her 4 years prior? Maybe Alpert kidnapped her and gave her to Ben as a prize for killing his daddy??(did I say that - whack) #172. Posted by: mtncbn at May 9, 2008 8:15 PM re: numbers I guess excel is 16 or so significant figures, not decimal points. The numbers, all strung together is 4.8 billion and some. #173. Posted by: mtncbn at May 9, 2008 8:24 PM --I think the time travel theories are completely wrong. Island time is different than real time. That is why Richard and others from the island do not age, the rocket arrives late, and the Doc arrives decomposed. Real time is faster than island time. It's as if the island is separate from the Earth, and why it is able to move. I'm sure there are other examples, or maybe I'm completely wrong. --Locke made the right choice when he was tested by Richard. He stared at the Book of Laws, but that would have been wrong. "Written laws" are for followers and masses not the faithful. I think Richard was disappointed by the decision to choose the knife. --This brings me to the rule that changed. I believe the rule that changed was the killing of innocent people. Ben changed the rules when he killed the Dharma people. He was taking orders, but from who? Micheal took orders from Ben, and he chose to kill. Ben chose to kill Dharma people. The knife Locke chose is the one he killed Naomi with. Correct? --Nice theory on WALT/ABBADON Griff, but I doubt it. Great comments everyone, and another great review from Mac. #174. Posted by: TruRuano at May 9, 2008 8:32 PM more numbers: I tried entering 555,555,555,815,162,342.56 - the numbers preceded by three sets of 5's and some random pennies. Excel displays it as 555,555,555,815,162,000.00. So the question is, if you can't check and verify the National Budget with Excel, how the heck can anybody verify it??!! Are we all expected to be 'persons of faith'? Now I'm really getting worried about me. And my tax dollars. #175. Posted by: mtncbn at May 9, 2008 8:35 PM Meg...help me....I'm on my econd bottle. I watched it agin and took notes. RA and knife with littel John...maybe he is going to kill someone with that knife and Richard needs to find out if it is really Locke. I'm thinking hunter=warrior and farmer =scinetist and when john says he is not like Ben, Ben knows that he is really a scientist. The scientist teacher looks like Leonard...but maybe that's me after a lot of wine. Did anyone else think that Sayid wasn't looking where he was going when he took off in the zodiac? I also got a deja vu on the stairs when Abbadon had Locke sitting there and it reminded me of Booone's nanny falling down the stairs. Abbadon also asks John if he believes in miracles and after he is healed by the island he does. Noticed the reference to knife and walkabout and the whole RA/young Locke thing...don't know where that is going. Yep...Jack is an idiot. Why does he think anything to do with the freighters is safe...no way....what an idiot!!! I got the feeling that Christian was giving a test to Locke like RA did...ask the right question. if he didn't then he would not have gotten an answer. That's all for now....but a bottle and half makes things a little clearer...wish I had same Claire stuff, then I could tell you how it ends....lol. #176. Posted by: So_Lost at May 9, 2008 9:00 PM ******POSSIBLE SPOILER****** @ everyone discussing whether Christian Shepherd is dead/alive/Smokey: I just wanted to remind you that Darlton said (in a podcast?) that they had a board with all the character's pictures on it divided under three categories: living, dead and undead. In the undead category, there are 3 pictures (or there WERE three pictures at that time, it could have changed now, adding Claire): Christian Shepherd, Yemi and Kate's horse. So there you go. I don't think that he's a manifestation of Smokey....he's definitely got business. ****END OF POSSIBLE SPOILER**** @ 163/robislost: I don't think the "mystery music" at Locke's birth meant much. It WAS the '50s and that nurse just delivered a 3 month premature baby. She was acting nervous probably because she knew (or thought she did) the baby was going to die. It was probably a big deal to her to have to deliver a baby so early to a girl so young. #177. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 9, 2008 9:06 PM Testing Locke with the objects: If this is like the test for the Dalai Lama... They are testing to see if the objects are recognized by the child to determine if the child is the reincarnation of the previous Dalai Lama. The objects never belonged to John Locke, they belonged to the person they think John Locke is the reincarnation of. Anthony Cooper is NOT John's father unless he has been the same age forever. John's father was twice the age of Emily, but John's mother and Anthony Cooper were the same age when they conned Locke out of his kidney. The fact that Locke was a "match" for the needed kidney is inconsequential; organ donors are often strangers to the person receiving the organ. Mr.Paik is in this up to his neck! They tested Walt. He was allowed to leave the island because although he is "special" he is not "The One". But more than that, his abilities were freaky...dead birds all over the place. So they let him go before he got really mad and did something they all regretted. Ihave to read more posts. #178. Posted by: undaunted at May 9, 2008 9:25 PM kethd/147: The Book of Laws is not a Bahai title. The Kitab-i-Aqdas is the book of laws but it's title is translated as "The Most Holy Book." I've never seen any of the English translations of the sacred writings of the Bahai Faith titled in anything but their original Farsi. But that doesn't mean they may have been so translated many years ago. In any event, the book which is the book of laws would not be translated as Book of Laws because that isn't it's title. ______ Mac: Abbadon gives me the creeps too! I think you hit on something... that Abbadon & Alpert are battling for Locke's allegiance. I wonder if Christian-in-white-shoes is in cahoots with Abbadon. I have no idea what I think about Christian-in-the-cabin, except I don't think he is the same entity as Christian-in-white-shoes. _______ I just realized how dumb my observation was about John's father and his age! ______ #179. Posted by: undaunted at May 9, 2008 10:05 PM I will be highly upset if at any point in the future Patrick Duffy shows up taking a shower...... #180. Posted by: Sarge at May 9, 2008 10:12 PM @meg - just wanted to let you know I'm on your side tonight. And today's thoughts: Since no one can find the island without heading 305, moving it in space doesn't mean anything. Must be space/time. We originally thought after the hatch blew up, people would be able to find the island. But that has been proved wrong - Desmond couldn't escape, Penny still hasn't quite found them, they keep mentioning heading 305. I thought Ben looked like he was expressing some genuine emotion, the only time we've seen it except for Alex's death. He's just not a very expressive person. That's how he controls everything anyway. It's easier to convince people to follow you when you behave calm & rational. But he accepted that's the way the island is working & is scheming to put it to his advantage. I think Claire is definitely dead. She was killed by the head wound - we don't know exactly when, but I think she died in her sleep and that's when she "woke up" & saw Christian. All stoned jokes aside, that's the only reasonable explanation. Now here's an opportunity for her to figure out she's Jack's half-sister and tell him. Maybe in-between Kate's trial & Jack living with her. #181. Posted by: hurling_is_drunk at May 9, 2008 10:25 PM ...ahh. Of course it all originated from the 50's. Eisenhower and McCain. These brilliant writers have brought it all together (yes)today. Crazy 'bout this show. #182. Posted by: dhama boy at May 9, 2008 10:45 PM only one here.. per my #100 post. I guess only Des and Michael have control of the freighter? #183. Posted by: dharma boy at May 9, 2008 11:15 PM Theres one important part to the Horace's magical nosebleed that I don't think anyone else has brought up yet. Horace is repeating the same act over and over again. "Hi, I'm Horace, I'm building a cabin" etc. except for when is nose is bleeding. In those moments Horace breaks away from the recording and says relevant things. Being dead for 12 years, that Jacob's been waiting for him, that Locke needs to find Horace's body, etc. The rest could just be some moment from his actual life hes living over and over again. As for why its a nose bleed used to represent this, I dunno. First thing that came to my mind though was that the gas that killed him during the purge caused nose bleeds. #184. Posted by: Sage at May 9, 2008 11:47 PM It seems to me that there is a lot of bean-counting going on here when it comes to timelines -- the two Emily's dying at different ages, for one example. (new paragraph...) If the island is able to change events in any time (per my Tardis/Gaia post above, #99), then the history that is true in this episode might not be the history true in the next episode. (new paragraph...) Maybe in this episode John's mother lived, but Ben's mother had dies at childbirth, but if the island is still working on "morphing" these timelines, slowly more and more of the pieces of the puzzle are being re-made. By the next episode, Ben's mother may have survived childbirth. (new paragraph...) Even if I'm wrong specifically on Ben and John's moms, still the point about changing timelines would seem to hold true. Any inconsistencies now will gradually disappear as timelines continue to merge under the guidance of the island. (new paragraph...) Greg Conquest #185. Posted by: Greg Conquest at May 10, 2008 12:06 AM My biggest problem is why Christian Shepard? Aside from Jack's hallucinations and his unresolved conflicts with his father, he has been as incidental to the plot as, say, Kate's mother. But now he appears in a more central role, perhaps because he is also Aaron's grandfather? If he is a manifestation of Jacob in human form, why choose someone who is unknown to Locke but familiar to all of us (as well as Jack.) Why is this manifestation of Claire's father, who, when he was alive, she wanted nothing to do with, suddenly her cozy pal. United in death? I think that by the time the show wraps up, there will remain many issues unexplained. The ending will resolve interpersonal issues, but much of the island's mysteries will remain just that. No one ever worried about explaining Circe or Polyphemus. Abaddon may work for Widmore but may have been as much in the dark about Protocol 2 as Lapidus, Faraday, et al. Widmore would not be the first fictional corporate executive of evil to have his secret band of evildoers. Widmore seems to be using legitimate scientists to study the properties of this remarkable island while all along thinking of ways he can personally exploit it. Abaddon's interest in Locke may have been precipitated by Alpert's. What would Widmore gain by torching the island? It seems the island's properties are more than just a micro black worm hole. Doe Widmore have any idea of what the island's properties are? The Dharma people were not completely aware and paid a hefty price. Alpert presenting that knife among the objects for young Locke to identify made me think of Ben's testing of Locke by requiring Locke to kill his father. Did Ben give Locke a knife and if so, was it the same knife? Was the Mittelos Lab the Lab that Juliet was supposedly hired to work at? Was it also not supposed to be in Oregon? The same place as Science Camp? If Widmore was bankrolling the Dharma initiative, might he still be unaware of the slaughter, even if it was 12 years ago? I remain addictively, happily confused as ever. #186. Posted by: August Paul at May 10, 2008 1:31 AM I just stumbled upon this little tid-bit from Season 2 episode 9/ What Kate Did.... This was after Eko & John watched the Dharmite movie. EKO: Hello. I have something I think you should see. If you don't mind, I will begin at the beginning. Long before Christ the king of Judah was a man named Josiah. LOCKE: Boy when you say beginning, you mean beginning. EKO: At that time the temple where the people worshipped was in ruin. And so the people worshipped idols, false gods. And so the kingdom was in disarray. Josiah, since he was a good king, sent his secretary to the treasury and said: "We must rebuild the temple. Give all of the gold to the workers so that this will be done." But when the secretary returned, he had no gold. And when Josiah asked why this was the secretary replied, "We found a book." Do you know this story? LOCKE: No, I'm afraid I don't. EKO: What the secretary had found was an ancient book -- the Book of Law. You may know it as the Old Testament. And it was with that ancient book, not with the gold, that Josiah rebuilt the temple. On the other side of the island we found a place much like this, and in this place we found a book. [Eko unwraps the book and pushes it toward Locke] I believe what's inside there will be of great value to you. [Locke opens the book. A square has been cut out, and inside is a piece of film.] so....what does it mean? I dunno, but there you have it. #187. Posted by: undaunted at May 10, 2008 1:47 AM Interesting episode, very interesting... I think were, at least, all agreed on that. First off, @ Idmonster. Nice catch, very meaningful. The way I understand it is: it wasn’t as much pointlessness of searching for meaning, as it is irony of it. So Sisyphus’s’ solution was to incapacitate the God of Death, so that no human had to die for the “futile search for meaning and…” However, after being caught by Hades, his punishment during death would be to “push the boulder up a hill, only to have the boulder roll back down for him to push again in an eternally repeating loop”. The irony stems from, if God(s) created man, then the natural question to ask is: “Why have I been created?” The conclusion to the question would be; to believe in the Creator(s). Most stop there. One asks further, “What is the motive of a God to create man, so that man lives his life in adoration of God? Vanity?? What else?” Surely a being so vain would find satisfaction in adoration of himself! Thus, man would be foolish to live searching for meaning, unity and acceptance, and should be content in just living for himself… Perhaps in our own right we should be just as vain... No? However, I think we looked to deep into it, my first impression was that it was a type of Island voicemail. Repeating itself just to get the point across to Locke that he hasn’t gone completely mad, and the Island IS trying to tell him something. Now... Referring to Locke’s “test”, let’s set aside the connection some have made to a reincarnation relating to the Dalai Lama. The real John Locke (the philosopher) believed in “God”. I’ll skip some of his reasoning to get to his point: “there must be something eternal”. The eternal being must be "cogitative" (i.e. sensible, thinking, perceiving beings as opposed to "incogitative"; purely material, without sense or perception). It is impossible to conceive that something completely incogitative can produce a thinking intelligent being as that nothing of itself should produce matter. Example: “of the next pebble we meet with, if there were no other being in the world, would it not remain so, an inactive dead lump?” Matter, therefore, on its own strength cannot produce in itself so much as motion. Even motion, must be either eternal, as matter, or induced into matter by another being more powerful than matter! So the motion it has is eternal too. Matter and motion eternal cannot produce thought and knowledge, no matter the configuration... Where this is going is that: If NOTHING came first, or eternal, then matter cannot be. If MATTER ONLY came first, or eternal, then motion cannot be. If MATTER AND MOTION came first, or eternal, then knowledge cannot be. And since knowledge and thought exist, then all three must have been first and eternal. Now, substitute; matter: for the sand. Motion: for the compass. And knowledge: (for what I think we all agree the “right” choice should have been) the book. We can interpret the test as one of John’s faith rather than reincarnation or whatever. That’s all I got for now. #188. Posted by: Apollo at May 10, 2008 2:48 AM Did anyone else notice that when hurley gave ben the candy bar to eat there was a wispered 'eat it'? Kinda wierd? #189. Posted by: lostinspacetime at May 10, 2008 2:51 AM One hundred and ninetieth! #190. Posted by: t-code-j at May 10, 2008 5:35 AM RE: Lost "Time Travel" I don't think we've seen anyone's physical self travel thru time. The closest we came was Ben (in Tunisia) asking for the year, and in retrospect, that moment had a playful "just testing a theory" kind of a feel to it. Oxford Danny said it's impossible to change time. I'm banking on that. That probably also means nobody goes back in time (because even to stand there, you'd be displacing molecules previously fixed and thus "changing" things). But if your *consciousness* goes back in time you can change only so much. Or maybe not. When Desmond goes AWOL to see Danny [and Penny], that must be why he got thrown in the brig. But we had long since known he'd get put there. So, presumably, Desmond had always made that trip to see Danny, but he must've blacked out about it. (Probably assumed it was just a drunken weekend he couldn't remember anything about.) Apparently, aside from course correcting, the timestream also steals memories from those who mess with it. (Danny's memory problems fit, too.) Perhaps the Jewlery Lady & the Abbot have learned how to avoid the pitfalls of *mental* time travel. Perhaps they both live in the future (how much older can those two get in their own natural futures, though?). And... wait for it... Maybe these two ARE each others' constants! Hmmmm... #191. Posted by: Bill at May 10, 2008 7:03 AM Bill: Wow! Cool Website. #192. Posted by: davidrh at May 10, 2008 7:34 AM RE: The Island's "Time Bubble" (a freakin Snow Globe!) Somebody else help me out with the details, but consider for a moment. We've seen two things travel through the "time bubble": 1) people (in ships, subs & heli's) and 2) communication transmissions. Also, twice now, we've seen Danny's transmissions skew perceptions of real time. What if the "time bubble" around the island affects humans-going-thru-it differently than it affects communications-going-thru-it? Here's where I need details: When Danny called the boat and asked for a rocket shipment, we assumed (as he seemed to) that his communication was in real-time. We also assumed that the payload was time adjusted. But what if (either) the payload came through in real time but Danny was speaking to the future (or) maybe Danny was speaking to the past and the payload took twice as long as we thought it did? It's possible the objects and transmissions are affected differently. Of course, we'd rather find some consistency... if possible! When Danny sent Morse Code and got back "the doctor's fine", I think we assumed that (either) the Doctor's body travelled back in time. But what if Danny's transmission is the only thing that travelled back in time? As viewers, we know it's common, from episode to episode, for us to lose track of the days just a bit. Sometimes we "rewind" a bit when coming back to a setting ignored for a while (like the freignter this week). But I hope the lostpedia people or whoever is charting the timeline finds some other clue besides the doctor's death to place that morse code scene in "island chronology". Or maybe there's no consistency. Maybe that's the consistency - that the bubble just screws up time in various ways. (But communications might still skew differently from objects, even in simultaneous, ah, skewings.) More thoughts on this: When Lapidus took our boys to the freighter, Sayid noticed they lost daylight. We assumed that was a forward jump of several hours, but what if it was a backwards jump of 15 hours? Backwards jumping could get problematic. That might make it possible to jump to the island and back again, running into yourself before you left! So maybe (for the moment) we should rule out backwards jumping. (?) Maybe the *SPEED* and/or *MASS* of a moving object helps determine HOW MUCH of a time jump (assume forward) something takes. A helicopter's sizeable momentum gets multiplied by the bubble and takes a big bump forward. (In this hypothesis, you "lose time" passing thru the bubble, no matter which direction you're going.) But a floating body has very little momentum and so it's speed gets multiplied by the bubble to barely noticable effect. ******** Possible conclusion: That suggests the doctor's body came thru in something close to real time, but Danny's transmission went BACK in time. The helicopter took off right after the doctor got killed, but the heli lost several hours passing thru the bubble. Therefore (unless it's possible that the Dr's body went BACK in time) the helicopter must have lost so much time passing thru that: (1) the body had time to float in (2) Danny had time to create a morse code thingy (3) in which time, night fell (4) but the transmission went BACK into the daylight scene on the freighter) and (5) the beached losties still had time for Jack to suffer, for a trip to the medical hatch, for a tent surgery, for Jack to come out of his tent and get fussed at... and THEN see the heli. ****MAN, THAT HELI LOST A LOT OF TIME, GOING THRU THE BUBBLE!!! (My conclusion)**** (Or else the Dr's body went BACK in time, which I don't think is as likely. But one of the true seems necessary.) It makes much more sense that communication transmissions would go BACK in time and objects would go forward. If a transmission is just a radio wave or an electronic signal, which (help me on the science somebody) may not have enough physicality (mass?) to "displace molecules" and thus "alter time" (see previous post). Three final points: One: If mass and/or speed affect how much time you lose, does that explain the choice of a slow moving sub? A large amount of mass moving veeeeeeery slowly could still approach a null affect. (Kind of the opposite of a tiny bullet's high velocity giving it tremendous power.) Two: When you travel to/from the island, physically, you always "LOSE TIME". Thus, "Mittelos" (lost time). (??) Three: I may be way off, but hey, this is fun! :) I like chronology! ;) #193. Posted by: Bill at May 10, 2008 7:45 AM Btw, on a totally different topic... I totally agree with whoever said Locke's "old mom" in the toystore was probably just Cooper's accomplice. First of all, that's his m.o. He's also a total loner. But there's much more: We didn't see "old mom" in later episode flashbacks that had Cooper in them. We didn't see John getting all weepy about his mom later, like he did about his dad. (This suggests he found out she wasn't really his mom.) But most of all, everything about Cooper's character totally junks the idea that he'd stay with a 15 year old from 1956 until c.2000! Faithful? Anthony Cooper? I don't think so! Ben & Locke may or may not be half-brothers, but that woman in the toy store was Cooper's tool. She was NOT John's mom. Now, if we knew what year Ben was born, it might help with this "Emily question". Finally, To whoever said the actresses weren't the same: look again and see if they have any resemblance. I think I remember a DVD with Lindelof/Cuse talking about how "little Ben" had some resemblance to Michael Emmerson. (They also said Ben's mom was played by Emmerson's wife. To much ha ha.) Anyway, they could have picked the actress who played a 15 year old Emily Locke partly for her resemblance to the first actress. Speaking of which, did anyone else think the actor playing teenage John Lock could have been a relative of Terry O'Quinn? Or was it just me? But after all that, the "same Emily" theory may be another red hering. Of course, if Ben knows his mom's maiden name (and Ben knows everything!) then Ben may already know that John is his brother! Woah! Ben might have *knowingly* tried to kill his own brother! But of course, we'll have to wait and see! :) #194. Posted by: Bill at May 10, 2008 8:10 AM On Jacob: 1) If Jacob is a Jinn/Genie, is it significant that you have to light the lantern to go into the cabin? (Or maybe that's just a nice touch by the writers!) 2) When I see Jacob's cabin now I think of Disney's Aladin: "PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS!!!! (itty-biddy living space)" :) #195. Posted by: Bill at May 10, 2008 8:22 AM On Chronology: I *do* like it. And thanks for the compliment, davidrh. Stop by my site anytime. :) On Lost Chronology: obviously, seeing Richard in 1956 expands our views to imagine things about the island in all that time. We've also settled on the idea that there have been many changes thru those decades. So just when it started to seem clear, it's hazy again. (IE: I have NO idea how to tell who Abbadon works for, but the idea that there may be some team switching thru the years is a thought.) There's too many possibilities... and that's one thing I like about it! Aside from cool action/fantasy/sci-fi, great character development and brilliantly involved writing, I think the reason I love lost the most is its sheer complexity. It plays on so many levels, in so many places and time periods, and with so many characters. And everything's connected! I think life is more like that than we usually know. For example: Yeah, Sawyer seeing Christian in a bar was a giant coincidence, but imagine the one million other people he met thru life that were NOT "links" in that way. So the show just focused on (literally) the one in the million. But in life, we don't know how to tell when the camera's on (so to speak). So you just never know... I believe TIME is connected more than we know. I just read an article about a historian (I forget his name) whose pioneering new ways to look at cold-war era global developments, namely that social movements in various countries caused domestic instability which made world leaders more likely to seek stability abroad. Fascinating! And, reportedly, it's a new approach to studying history. Nobody's ever done global politics from a domestic-issues standpoint like that. (So says a recent Smithsonian Magazine, owned by a friend.) Stuff is connected. Like Jesus Christ's years in the Roman Empire. But that's a whole other topic... :) I'm way past my posting quota. Time to get back to real life! :) #196. Posted by: Bill at May 10, 2008 8:54 AM Apollo/188: Was it Thomas Aquinas who argued that chaos does not beget order? Whoever said it, it was his argument that the order we see is proof of an Intelligent Creator which he referred to as God. If he could see now all the evidence we have since gathered with regard to how the universe works, he would surely say, "I told you so." Just snowflakes under a microscope would make him smile knowingly. #197. Posted by: undaunted at May 10, 2008 10:36 AM My vote for the most different spellings -Abaddon, what is the correct spelling?? I can't claim this research, I have clipped(marked with **) from other sites these gems of detail. **We've previously been given reason to believe Locke was born in May of 1956. ''Everyday'' was released on vinyl in July 1957.** The song playing as Emily prepares to go out in the rain and get hit by car **Now, do the timeline math. Locke is born early. At age 5, he takes a test that most likely would have taken him to the Island if he had passed. He didn't. That same year, Benjamin Linus is born. At age 16, Locke is invited to go to a science camp that again would have taken him to the Island. He refused. About that same time, Benjamin Linus and his father joined the Dharma Initiative. The implication, it seems, is that Ben has been walking the path that was originally meant for Locke. Ben was the contingency plan — the course correction — for Locke's altered destiny. But Ben is his own person, of course, and he has done things differently from what Locke would have done, and this, in turn, has created further changes in the original order of things — changes that I think a certain ticked-off, Island-deprived billionaire named Charles Widmore is trying to reverse. The scene at the rehab center between paralyzed adult Locke and his wheelchair pusher, the creepy Matthew Abbaddon — who accepted the description of ''orderly'' with knowing irony — was meant to suggest one way Widmore is scheming to restore the original order: by getting Locke on that Island and taking back the birthright that was supposed to be his. ** #198. Posted by: mtncbn at May 10, 2008 10:51 AM → 189. Posted by: lostinspacetime Yes I definitely heard whispering during the hurley and ben scene! #199. Posted by: AC at May 10, 2008 11:08 AM So I just had a thought. What if this was like a Willy Wanka's Chocolate factory thing. I mean this like... What if the island is a really small thing... and when you go towards the island, you shrink, and when you go away from the island, you become bigger/back to normal. Probably not, at all, but it would explain why it can eaisly be moved, and why it's hard to be found. @ Ice - 112 OMG you're a genius... NOT. Obviously you didn't actually read what everyone said. Anyway, I'm really upset about Gault dying. He was good "eye-candy"... but Ben is obviously better. I actually liked him though, and it seemed like he knew a lot. But I guess he didn't have control over Keamy. Did they have "equal authority"? I'm only on 117, so forgive me. #200. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 10, 2008 11:10 AM → 188. Posted by: Apollo Very interesting, very interesting! #201. Posted by: AC at May 10, 2008 11:26 AM What was hidden in plain sight to explain what is going on? Dead Doc Ray clearly washed ashore with new stitches in his cheek. When Doc Ray is killed on the freighter, no stitches in his cheek. The conclusion is that there are two Rays (?). Likewise, there may have been many more Patchy's than meets the eye since he seemed to die so often last season. Locke in wheelchair at rehab center. Locke is depressed by his situation. He is coached about the possibility of overcoming his situation. Behind him is a poster that reads “Get Back in the Game.” Horace’s repetitive ( re-boot) of his instructions to Locke. That scene led Locke on a mission, finding an object (a map), for another mission (find the cabin), to get another mission (move the island). This evidence strongly supports the existing theory that the premise of Lost is a computer video game (http//:www.lostisagame.com). The Horace repeat is a huge clue of a computer glitch. The basic character actions are also a clue: Players going on missions, picking up objects, shooting people, finding food--recharging health, getting information, winning and losing contests, going to different levels and finally leaving the game by getting killed. New players are logging into the game as old characters (Patchy, Ray) or new ghosts (Horace). Why did Jack get sick? In computer games, health is one factor in survival in missions; if he had run himself down to critical, it allowed other players a mission (surgery) to gain power (points). What about Claire? If she had enough life points when she was killed, maybe the program converts her character into a ghost form. What about Sawyer running through the compound in a hail of bullets without a scratch? Special bullet proof shielding because he completed so many missions. Characters have replacing each other in status/power as the show goes forward: examples, Locke for Ben, Sawyer for Jack, Christian for Jacob, Reamy for Patchy. The concepts of time, place, rational thought, real physics, reality are irrelevant in the context of a video game. I find the idea of spending six seasons watching, in essence, the recap of WoW + The Sims:Survivor multi-player video game tournament frustratingly unrewarding to me. I don’t like this theory but as a uniform explanation of the events, including continuity and factual errors, is getting more plausible. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Other observations/posts: The young Locke object test. I believe the correct answer was all of the objects. RA was quite happy when Locke moved both the sand vile (the island) and the compass (pointing to the island coordinate) off to the side. The other items, Mystery Tales #40 (April, 1956) w/ Hidden Land story, a baseball mitt, Book of Laws (which some assume is a book of the occult) and an old knife. RA was upset that Locke only picked one item (the test could not have been just one object; Locke would have had 1/6 random chance for success. So the point of the test was not to pick one object but all of them.). If this is a reincarnation test, based upon the age of the objects and Locke being born on May 30, 1956, I would guess this was the third to seventh reincarnation of Locke. Moving the island. I posted my assumptions on the Faraday experiment a couple of episodes ago that if the rocket was launched at 100 mph, then for it to reach the island 31 minutes late, the island had to be moving away from the freighter at 93 mph. Now, it appears that the island is no longer moving - - - probably because Faraday and Charlotte disarmed the propulsion mechanism at the Tempest. I also dislike the inconsistency in the time line. A rocket takes 31 extra minutes to get to the island, but a dead body (Dead Doc Ray) arrives 24 + hours in advance of death? The Laurel and Hardy scene with Ben and Hurley was a classic comedy routine (A Devine Comedy, perhaps?) because it also has an element of the absurd: after huffing and sweating through the jungle, a non-melted candy bar appears from Hurley’s pants pocket? The absurdity of Horace knocking down the same tree over and over again. Ben infers that it is a dream since he used to dream. However, many of the activities on the island seem to be repetitive punishments: the Numbers every 108 minutes in the computer; building a runway in the jungle, ect. #202. Posted by: welh at May 10, 2008 12:26 PM Am I missing something here? Is there a specific reason that everyone is assuming that the woman who claimed to be Locke's mom in the toy store is actually Locke's mom? Maybe Anthony Cooper hired her... Maybe they're both con men/women. You know, like how Cassidy was working with Sawyer in "The Long Con". So the whole Christian coming back thing could explain how Jack "knows" that he and Claire are half siblings. Maybe Christian talks to Sawyer and Sawyer recognizes him and then he mentions that Claire is is daughter as well and then Sawyer tells Jack? I don't know... Christian knows wayy too many people. @ berkyo - 130 I've had a binder and a folder since season 2. They're pretty filled up. Now I have a notebook too. They all go into my binder. Sometimes I take one to school. =] @ Kara Jane - 131 I think Hurley should raise Aaron. Except he's in a psycho ward... and he stands in front of a window with Aaron in his hands with a bunch of guys with guns outside aiming at them. It was kind of funny how Locke had to tell Hurley like 3 times to "get the baby away from the window, Hugo". I forgot who said it, but I like the theory about Widmore crashing 815 so that none of the survivors can "go back" without creating confusion. @ Apollo - 134 I'm glad you feel that way. Seriously... Jack is such a dumbass. Mac got it completely right. Jack and Claire "must be related". They're both idiots. Where's Mr_Naysayer?!?! We need some of his awesome theories! ... I'm only on 139, so if he came, then sorry Mr_Naysayer. LOST. is a show of allusions. It seems like almost everything on the show is an allusion to something. @ AC - 141 That's not the only reason I think Jack is an idiot. That just put the cherry on top. His name should be... Jack ShepLARD. #203. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 10, 2008 12:47 PM @ Shayde - 158 4815162342/Pi = 1532713777 4815162342/e = 1771399232 ... I guess they both start with a 1, and contain at least 2 7's, 2 3's, and uh... I don't know what this has to do with anything. Maybe it's relevant. __________ Jack = UGLY Keamy = HIDEOUS. I have no idea what you guys see in those fools. HOWEVER BEN = HOT. Captain Gault is pretty cute too. _______ Does anybody watch New Amsterdam? It's a good show. -- Maybe Richard has something like that going on with him. #204. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 10, 2008 1:16 PM I am only up to post #50, but I had to post a few things. First of all, Locke's grandmother answered that she didn't know who that man was. She didn't confirm or deny it being Locke's father. Do we know that she actually knows the father? I don't think so. This leaves a big question mark there. I got the feeling that Alpert was traveling around in time to see Locke at various stages of his life. Perhaps in an effort to better prepare him for his destiny. Ben was the chosen one, but he has realized that he has fallen out of favor with Jacob, that's why he warned Locke. Jacob is liable to pick someone else longer down the line and do the same thing to Locke that he did to Jacob. That's fickle! Okay, back to reading. #205. Posted by: meg at May 10, 2008 1:44 PM OOps, I mean do the smae thing to Locke that he did to Ben - change the rules. I am still not convinced the rules were only changed by Widmore. #206. Posted by: meg at May 10, 2008 1:45 PM "One thing that MAc didn't mention was that Ben seemed to imply that he wasn't the one who gave the order to kill all the Dharmites and that someone else was in control before he took over.' → 67. Posted by: Ashman at May 9, 2008 11:25 AM Wasn't Ben a mere child when this decision was made. Seemed as if he wasn't a leader yet, but just doing what the island's native inhabitants wanted him to do. So, that would be accurate for him to say that. He was just helping out, but didn't make the decision. Around post #101, someone sugested that Eyeliner was angry at Locke's picking the knife. Perhaps Locke uses the knife to kill Jacob or murder Ben, and now Eyeliner knows he must go back to the island and change things. Silly yes, but my mind is too cloudy to finetune this theory... Oh, and don't jump all over me for my taste in men, but I am thinking naughty thoughts about Keamy now...lol, sorry Ben! Fickelness (is this a word?) is hell, isn't it?! Random thoughts (as if my other thoughts weren't random)... Why did the guy push Locke to the edge of the steps in his wheelchair? Seemed as if he was going to push him down them. Reminded me of the dream scene in the airport, with Locke climbing the escalator. @so_lost and hurling is drunk - Install a breathalizer on your key board. It cuts way down on the typos...LOL MADP (Mothers Against Drunk Posting) has them on sale for19.95 Best 20 bucks I've ever spent...:)

#207. Posted by: meg at May 10, 2008 2:24 PM

@mtncbn/198
Ben was much younger than 16 when he went to the island. More like 10. But your theory could still work - if they saw Ben wasn't developing the way they wanted. Or maybe they just wanted to have 2 boys, so they could choose which one would suit their needs better.
Then also - Locke would have presumably been taken to the island for "summer camp" and not returned. They'd've made some excuse about him enrolling in a special school. Why didn't they do that with Ben? They didn't want his father and his father blamed him for the mother's death, so the separation would have been welcomed. Unless the writers just didn't plan that far in advance.

#208. Posted by: hurling_is_sobered_up at May 10, 2008 2:53 PM

who here hates that stupid imortal richard alpert? i mean hes never done anything that bad but his guyliner just angers me for some reason.

does anybody know when his first aperance on the show was??

#209. Posted by: kaseygirl106 at May 10, 2008 4:00 PM

kaseygirl, I know what you mean. Any guy who spends more time in front of the mirror than I do has some major issues!!

So, who is worse: Guyliner or Breathing Problem Guy??

Claire was all dippy and drugged up when she was with the Others before. Maybe she got hold of some of Charlie's stash. I sure hope they fill in the blanks with what happened to Claire and how she got that way. It really seemed like she did a complete character change.

#210. Posted by: meg at May 10, 2008 5:31 PM

I'm still trying to stuff my brain back into my head after the end of the episode, but here are a few random thoughts:

There isn't an exact correlation between island time and off-the-island time. Sometimes the island is ahead, sometimes it's behind, sometimes it's both. Clearly the island is in some kind of pocket dimension, and the interface between the island and the real world isn't linear. What time it is depends on the direction from which you approach the island, how fast you're going, and what the writers have been smoking this week.

However, the non-linear nature of the island/world interface would greatly facilitate "moving the island". You don't have to actually move the land mass; you just reconfigure the doorway between the island and the rest of the world. Just find the right Dharma station, press the right buttons, and presto - the island isn't in Kansas any more.

And we all know how much Locke enjoys pushing buttons...

#211. Posted by: Zeb at May 10, 2008 9:05 PM

Long time reader, first time poster, LOVE YOU ALL.
But something happened to me today that I thought I should share with you. Especially since this was at least a triple WTF episode...

I just got back from a day trip to Niagara Falls with a visiting friend. When we go we always try to stop off and park at the local Buddhist Temple - always liked that place, never knew why. Anyway, we got there very early and while my family and friend went off to the John, I got talking to one of the monks about to leave in his car - only the two of us about.

Still holding your hats nice and tight?

"Hi. Love the Temple. Glad you built it here."
"Oh we had to, because of its position."
"Excuse me?"
"Yes the falls were originally here many many years ago when it all began."

And so he began...to explain how it had to be at the side of the nearby whirlpool "because that is where the energy/spirits come from" and that lightning flashes came from/into it the night of the gigantic power outage in 2003, and that the Niagara escarpment was linked to the original Turtle Island theory of the world...

By this point my head was starting to spin a little, so I couldn't hold onto all of his following references to, get this, Atlanteans and changing temperature conditions, as the world heats up ready for "the coming change from dark to good times"...

"Really? How has that been happening?"

"In two stages. The first of 5 years, The next of 30."

"So let's just get this straight...What we're talking about here is energy bursts, floating islands, all linked to changing times for Mankind, and the numbers 30/5?"

"Yes that's right. It's all in the Sutras!"

"And you're connected to all this."

"Oh yes, I'm a Protector!"

I didn't dare ask him what his name was :)

I've always valued everyone's comments up to now without replying, but if I couldn't share that with you all after THIS episode, when could I? And how's about that for timing?

Keep up the great work Mac. We all love ya!

#212. Posted by: FellowTraveller at May 10, 2008 10:00 PM

I see there are others out there who believe like me that Ben and Locke could be brothers. I'm pretty sure Locke is older than Ben, maybe 5-10 years older. Most of the time different actors are used to portray the same person at different stages of their lives (unless they are ageless like RA)so the two Emily's could be the same Emily. I don't think the woman in the toy store was really Locke's mom. I think she was part of the con. If our theory is correct, it will be interesting to find out why Emily was "chosen" to give birth to these two babies, but was not "allowed" to raise either one. Maybe I have a wild imagination, but hey -- LOST is pretty wild too!

#213. Posted by: Cissy at May 10, 2008 10:24 PM

Did someone say something about drunk posting?

1. Was anyone else disappointed that Keamy's gun jammed when he was trying to shoot Michael?
2. If Alpert is a Black Rock survivor, he would be about 150 right now, give or take. Is it possible the island's special healing power is Botox?
3. It was nice to see the backstory Swoosh again! It's similar to the sound in my brain after too much drinking.
4. It sure rains a lot around Locke. What's up with that?
5. Did Locke's eyeball seem a little bit buggy when he "woke up" in his dream?
6. Locke seemed kinda edgy before he went into the the cabin. Do you think Horace gave him some of his good speed?
7. When Claire gets the munchies, does she have any Dharma chips to munch on, or does she have to settle for Apollo bars and choco hats?

#214. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 10, 2008 10:54 PM

@ mtncbn #198

That is a great theory. With the similarities in their births and the way that their timelines match up...I think you're on to something.

#215. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 10, 2008 11:13 PM

@214 Scooby-Dude
drunk posting -- who me?

1-it didn't jam, it just wouldn't fire, even after he checked the clip. Any how, he NEEDS to suffer some more yet.
2-not Alpert, Abaddon -still the same
3-my sound is just in my ears, but that's old age, not the beer!
4-maybe he's in Idaho in the spring time(who knows where the Island is)
6-cracked me up. the name says it all

rewatched the hurley ben apollo bar scene, sound at max. Didn't here the 'eat it' phrase some have mentioned.

#216. Posted by: mtncbn at May 11, 2008 12:43 AM

I am certain that Locke and Ben are half brothers. Locke is older than Ben. Locke was born first when Emily was just a teen. Later, Ben came along. It's a no-brainer.

#217. Posted by: Clyde at May 11, 2008 7:58 AM

Just wanted to correct myself!!!!

I posted about the OTHER patient in the hall when Emily was being rolled in... Well, watched it again last night and ... Of course there was only one gurney in the hall! I was confused (normal for me) bt the camera angle switching. Duh.

Sorry if anybody took the time to ask - What?

#218. Posted by: berkyo at May 11, 2008 8:45 AM

187. Posted by: undaunted

Just watched that the other day. I don't know what it means either. Are you suggesting the book that rebuilt the temple is the book of laws? Maybe it just implies good = faith and bad = science/corporate/money?

#219. Posted by: berkyo at May 11, 2008 8:54 AM

Has anyone had the chance to go back and check young Emily with the Emily who dies in the woods after giving birth to Ben? Do they even look alike? Is it the same actress?

#220. Posted by: meg at May 11, 2008 9:05 AM

@Scooby-Dude/214 wrote: If Alpert is a Black Rock survivor, he would be about 150 right now, give or take.
-----------------
See my above post#68 - which specifically questions the date the Black Rock actually landed on the Island.

Based on
2 - Sayid and Desmond's ride on the helicopter
3 - The freighter doc washing up on shore before he died
AND
4 - The likelihood that the Black Rock did NOT approach the Island at bearing 305

These events clearly make it possible - even LIKELY - that the relative "on-island" date did not coincide with the "off-island" date that the Black Rock ended up on the Island.

For all we know, relative to the 815 crash, the Black Rock could've landed on the Island MUCH more recently than 150 years ago - perhaps placing Charles Widmore himself on the boat. (Or at least making Alpert a young man of about 75).

OR

Perhaps the doomed ship reached the Island at a time that was MUCH EARLIER in history (like the doc) - perhaps more than a Millenium ago. Maybe they were the builders of the Four Toed statue, the temple, and the other remnants of the "ancient civilization".

#221. Posted by: vacc at May 11, 2008 9:37 AM

Don't know if this was posted yet, but it just hit me and I'm about half-way through... but, it seem that Alpert was upset about Locke choosing the knife, and therefor chose wrong. I think he either seemed upset because he chose right. Or because he had to hide the fact that he chose right - he likely had no school to send Locke to and was just wanted confirmation if this was someone he needed to keep his eye on for years, or no and just move on. I mean, let's say he's pleased, Locke guesses right, and his mom says "yay!" and then she discovers that he has no school and this guy is just some creep. Just my 2 cents.

#222. Posted by: Rick at May 11, 2008 10:31 AM

Olde Horace not only repeated himself verbally but he whacked the SAME tree down at least three times ! The nose bleed Horace and clean nose Horace are at different times or persons .

#223. Posted by: Fred Schwardt at May 11, 2008 12:20 PM

Hi guys! Late to the party as usual. But I've been reading the posts.

Great review as always Mac. You the man!

And great episode! A return to the old Lost, keeping us all lost and traveling back in time. I'm glad to see some FB action in the epi. That Locke sure is crazy. And what great acting all around, especially Ben and Hurley eating an Apollo bar.

Waaaaay back @ mac 64
I think after the failed "science camp" RA gave up on Locke. But something about his miraculous failure to die from falling out of an 8 story building alerted the people Abaddon works for. I'm thinking maybe there were two factions on the freighter. Maybe (as some other forums are saying...) Mr Paik is the one who sent Naomi and the other three?

Random questions:

Why doesn't the doc have stitches when keamy kills him?

How does Hurley get off the island, and why??

Why does Jack get sick??

Why does RA have long hair when he meets Ben, if he doesn't age, why would his hair grow??

Emily five months pregnant? Come on! Re-watch that scene. There's no way that girl was five or six months pregnant!!

@ 149 berkyo
Wasn't he in his casual friday attire at the hospital with Jack in the last epi?

@ 172 mtncbn
Yes, 4 year old Alex at the time of the purge? That's so strange. But Ben was no teenager. He's the same age as me, so he'd be 30 at the time of the purge. And that looked about right when we saw him in that epi.

@181 hurling_is_drunk
Thanks for clearing that up hurling! I kept wracking my brain trying to explain how she could hold Aaron while dead, while trekking through the jungle (and why he wouldn't be screaming in fear!)

I want to respond to everyone talking about Ben and Locke having the same mother. I have to admit that it's pretty strange that both mothers are named Emily and both are blond. TPTB are very careful with names, I don't think they'd make a mistake about that. I agree that it's certainly possible...but why? Does anyone have any ideas why it would be important for Ben and Locke to be half-brothers?

Just so everyone knows...the weather is crappy here in Provence. We're totally sick of cold spring weather.

Also, one last question. How many epi's do we have left and is the season final two hours?

Thanks guys!

#224. Posted by: En Provence at May 11, 2008 12:52 PM

Somethings been bugging me about that scene where Sawyer finds Aaron in the woods. It's like the baby started crying on cue when Sawyer started asking questions. At first I thought maybe it was the smoke monster but the more I think about it, I'm wondering if the baby is a clone.

We keep forgetting about the cloned rabbits. I even think Claire may be a clone of herself. After all, they did have her long enough to copy her DNA. Could they have copied DNA from Christian Shepherd. Jack never found his body and why would he ship home an empty coffin?

Also, in the scene where Ben shows up in the desert he seems momentarily confused. I keep picturing the rabbit that appeared out of thin air in the video and the panic everyone had about keeping them apart. If you are a clone, do you have any say in where you get transported to? Maybe you just go where the real you has a thought to go. Does that make sense. We still don't know what the incident was.

Everyone is joking about Vincent being smokey but I've wondered about Vincent since the pilot episode where he was spying from the bushes on Jack, Kate and Charlie when they were on their way to find the transceiver. How do we know that wasn't smokey sweeping by Jack in the opening scene?

Maybe there's nothing to these thoughts but they keep popping into my head.

Can anyone determine Ben's birth year based on the cars that drive by when Horace stops to help? Any car fanatics out there?

If the timeline is right, Alex was taken 4 years before the purge. Why would Ben want a baby if he wasn't married?

As for keeping a notebook, I have post-it notes on a large board. My son thinks I'm nuts.

Can't help but LOVE this show.

#225. Posted by: pebspostal at May 11, 2008 1:38 PM

So I was watching to Pilot episode, because I was really bored... and when they first hear Smokey, Walt looks up and he says, "Is that Vincent?!?!" Then Michael obviously says, "No, that's not Vincent."

But Walt's a special boy.... and well, Michael is not.

Sorry if someone mentioned this already.

#226. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 11, 2008 2:31 PM

"Wasn't he in his casual friday attire at the hospital with Jack in the last epi?"

I believe Jack's dad has always been "Seen" in the black suit with white sneeks. This "thing" in the cabin has a different shirt on. Not sure of the shoes.
I recently re watched and I still think both Jack's dad and Claire "apparitions" were acting strange. That's supposing an apparition can be normal.

So, why strange? why "look' different? Because they are not who they seem to be. (This is me trying to make sense of it)

Why could Ben and Jacob and Hurley find the cabin previously but now they need a map? Because they were in favor with Jacob and not in favor/control now?
And why a dream? a dream to send them to the map?

(Anybody ever think about Locke's dreams and where they came from as opposed to sightings of Jack's dad/Walt/the horse etc)

Hurley just stumbled on the cabin. On his own. Was Jacob reaching out to anyone because he has been kidnapped?Was he reaching out to Locke for this reason.

Why would Jacob hide from Locke? He seemed anxious to talk to Locke before. "Help me"

Maybe Jacob needs help because various factions are after him. Ben used to be working for/with/in charge of Jacob. Did he kidnap him from "others"
Because Jacob did not seem to be a happy apparition. Help me / angry paranormal activity in the cabin.

Someone Else takes control of Jacob - Ben can't find him.

Locke can't find him.

Hurley finds the cabin with 2 people/apparitions in it. Was one Jack's dad?

Now, Jack's dad and Claire are in the cabin, and THEY send a message to Locke. It reminded me of the hologram that princess Leia sent to Obi Wan asking for help, "Help me Obi-wan" repeating it self over and over.

Was the dream the R2D2 (computer simulated hologram) with the message for him? And why not just tell him where they were??????

THEY have put/built their own/taken over/whatever- cabin where Locke can find it by following a map. (I could find it with a map.)

Ben is following Hurley or Locke or whatever dream Locke had to find the cabin. I don't think he is done yet, I think Ben is trying to figure out the rules now that they have been changed.

Why did Ben not go into the cabin? Maybe he knew it was not Jacob.

#227. Posted by: berkyo at May 11, 2008 2:46 PM

@vacc 221 and 68
I pulled the Black Rock date from Lostpedia, but point taken about time being relative and the Black Rock crash date being unknown. But even if there's a time discrepancy, why would Desmond's boat reach the island in the generally "correct" timeline and the Black Rock go so far off course? Also, the 1996 auction of the Black Rock journal, sold by Hanso and purchased by Widmore -- plus the image of the ship in the painting -- does lend some credence to Lostpedia's mid to late 19th century timeline, depending on how accurate Lostpedia is.

Speaking of which, according to Lostpedia, parts of the Black Rock story may have been revealed through The Lost Experience, which is considered "semi-canon." Semi-canon?! Does that mean Claire may have only been semi-pregnant?! Grrrrr.

@Meg 220 and others
Emily Annabeth Locke is portrayed by the actress Swoosie Kurtz
Emily Linus is played by Carrie Preston

If anything, Emily Linus bears a resemlance to Juliet.

Other famous Emilys:
Emily Bronte – author, younger sister of Charlotte (the writer, not the anthropologist)
Emily Dickinson – poet, attended school on Pleasant Street. Not buried in a small casket at a sparsely attended funeral in L.A.
Emily Osment - sister of Haley Joel Osment. Does not see dead people.

#228. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 11, 2008 3:04 PM

After writing my thoughts above on the cabin, I went to Lostpedia and looked for info. While there, I clicked on the dog painting and was directed from there (I love the web!)to widmore paintings.

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Paintings_%28Widmore%29

I suppose you talked about this when the previous seasons were on, but I am just flabbergasted at the amount of connections in this show. I don't think I could ever put it all together.

I Really need to watch the 1st and second season again and just watch the background.

#229. Posted by: berkyo at May 11, 2008 3:19 PM

I don't like the idea that Locke was meant to be in Ben's place. The (half)brother thing seems cool, but to me feels a little contrived (if that is the correct spelling). RA & pals must have been pretty convinced, just by his Smokey drawing, that John Locke was indeed the latest reincarnation of 2pac, or whomever it is they're looking for. With what we've seen so far, it's obvious that there is a being out there, with God-like powers and human-like moods. Whether or not RA even knows about it, I'm sure Locke was meant to suffer his entire life, before he would be ready to fulfill his true destiny. Whatever it is. I read RA's reaction to him choosing the knife as an act.

So I don't think the Others needed Ben as a back up because John was stubborn. Ben was also chosen, he was meant to hold the fort untill John was ready. Unfortunately for the choosers, Ben can be a fickle b*tch.

#230. Posted by: Robislost at May 11, 2008 4:07 PM

And John can be a dumbass :)

#231. Posted by: Robislost at May 11, 2008 4:10 PM

Do we think Richard Alpert and Matthew Abaddon are:
1.not aging and showing up in flashbacks in their current time, just in different locations, or
2.time-traveling with both consciousness and physical being?

Why do they need a “chosen one”? To communicate with Jacob, who can send instructions back from the future? From Ben’s experience, it seems the “chosen one” is somewhat replaceable and may have an expiration date. “Chosen one” was our designation based on the Lama-like test. Maybe more accurate to use Ben’s description of “special.” Alpert and friends need this person’s abilities to fulfill their purpose in protecting the island. This person becomes a designated leader only in that he relays vital information from Jacob. But Alpert and clan are still calling the shots. Or is Jacob calling the shots?

So what is Jacob? Is he an island “native” akin to Alpert or “special” like Ben or a time-traveler like Des? Or is he more or different, an omniscient deity, voice of the island itself, or just some Widmore-like megalomaniac who wants to control the island and has the ability to project his consciousness and will across time?

#232. Posted by: Clementine at May 11, 2008 4:20 PM

I don’t believe Locke and Ben are blood relatives. I think they are somewhat exchangeable tools for the island to use, with “special” abilities. Perhaps they were bred to have those abilities, or perhaps Alpert and clan were given some prophetic guidelines as to who to bring back (parameters of destiny), and there was confusion along the way.

@Apollo/#188: re matter, motion, knowledge and God
Beautifully stated. In relation to Alpert’s test though, are you saying a child should have an innate perception of the “right” choice? Or that Locke would, if he was indeed “special”?

@Bill/#194 “But most of all, everything about Cooper's character totally junks the idea that he'd stay with a 15 year old from 1956 until c.2000! Faithful? Anthony Cooper? I don't think so!”

Cooper didn’t stay with Emily Locke at all. When Emily showed up to introduce herself to Locke as his mother, she initially said that he was “special” and the result of an immaculate conception. Which prompted Locke to hire a private investigator named Frainey. Some transcript from “Deus Ex Machina”:

FRAINEY: Emily Annabeth Locke in 10,000 words or less.
LOCKE [picking up a copy of Emily's driver's license]: So, she's my mother.
FRAINEY: I lifted some hairs from her car and matched them with your DNA samples. It's 99% certain. [Locke looks at some admission records from a mental hospital.] She was institutionalized - a few times.
LOCKE: What for?
FRAINEY: Nothing criminal or violent. It's a type of schizophrenia. Apparently, if she stays on her meds, she's okay.
LOCKE [glancing at a red folder Frainey has]: What about my father?

Locke then proceeds to meet Anthony Cooper who cons him out of his kidney. Emily later admitted she contacted Locke at the instigation of Cooper. Cooper paid her for the introduction; they didn’t have an ongoing relationship, other than to use each other when it became convenient.

I do think Emily (as played by Swoosie Kurtz) and Cooper are Locke’s biological parents. That doesn’t take away for his destiny on the island.

@mtncbn/#198: re Ben walking the course originally meant for Locke or vicey-versey
I agree with Jeff Jenson’s statement that you quoted. It makes sense to me that Ben and Locke are living parallel lives with intertwining destinies, but I think making them blood brothers would be overkill. The mirror-imagery is more powerful without the genetic connection (in my opinion).

#233. Posted by: Clementine at May 11, 2008 4:23 PM

@meg/#207: “Oh, and don't jump all over me for my taste in men, but I am thinking naughty thoughts about Keamy now...lol, sorry Ben! Fickelness (is this a word?) is hell, isn't it?!”

Imagine, if you will, Ben’s brain in Keamy’s bod.

Meg? Meg? Hope I didn’t cause you to short-circuit. :)

And, apologies to you and kaseygirl, but Richard Alpert is all kind of supernatural, freaky hot. Of course, I do have a predisposition to men who wear eyeliner. I seem to recall a crush on Richard Grieco, back in the day :)

#234. Posted by: Clementine at May 11, 2008 4:24 PM

@Zeb/#211: “However, the non-linear nature of the island/world interface would greatly facilitate "moving the island". You don't have to actually move the land mass; you just reconfigure the doorway between the island and the rest of the world.”

YES!!! That would fit perfectly. I’ve always liked the Vile Vortices theory, with the island in another dimension, reachable by certain pathways or chutes.

#235. Posted by: Clementine at May 11, 2008 4:26 PM

@FellowTraveller/#212: So, the door to the island is under Niagara Falls? Cool! :))

@En Provence/#224: The weather is crappy here, too. The ep this Thursday 5/15 is Part 1 of the finale and then we’re off for a week, and then the 2 hour end of the finale is on 5/29. So, three more hours total. Are you on the same schedule in France?

@pebspostal/#225: “As for keeping a notebook, I have post-it notes on a large board. My son thinks I'm nuts.”

I try to keep it all in my head, which is why I often sound like Rain Man talking Lost. (Thanks for your patience, everyone!) And peb, is it my imagination, or did you used to be “pebsgonepostal”?

@Scooby/#228: re famous Emilys
You do so consistently crack me up.

@YouAllEverybody: Thanks for the great entertainment on a rainy Sunday. You all rock, as usual.

#236. Posted by: Clementine at May 11, 2008 4:30 PM

@Clementine: Sounds like everyone's experiencing disappointing weather this month.
Anyways (as they say in another favorite but short-lived series) thanks for the info on scheduling for the rest of the season.
No, France hasn't even gotten season 3 yet. We have *coughs* other ways of getting the epi's ;)
As far as moving the island goes, I think they're just going to move the "door" too.

#237. Posted by: En Provence at May 11, 2008 5:10 PM

Lost Jumping the Shark?

We've all wondered at one time or another just when LOST would "jump the shark".. I now believe it will happen during this season finale.. Here's how.

When the time comes to move the Island, we will see the entire land mass rise slowly out of the water. After hovering for a moment, it will then slowly pass directly above the dorsal fin of the Dharma shark (seen in Season 2) before returning to the water in it's new location.

#238. Posted by: vacc at May 11, 2008 6:26 PM

Taken a few days to catch up, but have a few thoughts, which I'll post separately ...

First of all, noticed something no one else has mentioned here ... maybe a production error, maybe more ...

When RA visits little John for his lama past-life belonging selection, there's an interesting scene as John's view pans over from the Book of Laws to the comic book and knife ... check out these screen snaps:

tinyurl.com/5mr4lp

Note the direction of the blade! As he looks toward the knife, the sharp edge of the blade faces him ... then in the very next view, as he is about to pick it up, the blade edge is AWAY from him. Now, I know this will immediately invoke the "continuity error" scream from many, but I'm not so sure ...

As soon as RA leaves, the first words from his mom's mouth are "What did you do?" Did he "move" the knife, before picking it up? Does the direction of the blade (facing/away from him) mean anything? Possibly just a production error, but as always, my initial instinct is to think not. Also note that in the first view, the words "VOICE OF WARNING" are covered, but when the blade is away from John, these words are visible on the comic.

Now note this as well (in keeping with it maybe NOT being a continuity error) ... check out this screen snap (of the compass):

tinyurl.com/5bclda

The compass points to 145 degrees. So what, you may ask? Well, this scene precedes the 815 crash, and when Michael left the island, the "correct" heading was 315. In "current" Lost time, the correct heading is supposed to be 305. What if, in "little John" time, the correct heading was 325 degrees? Then the compass would be pointing in exactly the OPPOSITE direction, away (as the blade) from the island heading ... I think this shows, along with the blade orientation, just what RA said as he left ... John was not yet ready.

#239. Posted by: ealgumby at May 11, 2008 8:39 PM

@Bill/193
"Maybe the *SPEED* and/or *MASS* of a moving object helps determine HOW MUCH of a time jump (assume forward) something takes."

Actually, according to the Kerr Metric theory (canon), it's acceleration that matters ... remember Galileo (in reference to dropping heavy/light balls from a tower)? It's not the mass that matters ... all falling objects accelerate at the same rate. Likewise, initial "speed" is irrelevant, but "velocity" is not ... the direction (heading) will affect the resultant gravitational acceleration, and hence the "space-time" offset upon exit.

Also, some initial headings/acceleration will be "assisted" by Kerr metric frame dragging (into the future), while the opposite headings/acceleration will result in being "dragged" backward in time. The "magic" heading will result in no net offset in time.

#240. Posted by: ealgumby at May 11, 2008 9:01 PM

@Bill/193
"That suggests the doctor's body came thru in something close to real time, but Danny's transmission went BACK in time."

Actually, just the opposite ... we see in "Cabin Fever" that the Morse transmission is received after the initial freighter assault, followed by Keamy killing and dumping doc overboard. Ostensibly, doc drifted to the island on a course that sent him back in time to when he was found on the island.

I still have a problem with this though ... doc's wounds do not make sense:

tinyurl.com/6y65uw

When doc was killed by Keamy in "Cabin Fever," he appeared as in Ji Yeon, with no stitches. Yet when he washed ashore in "TSoTtC," he had stitches ... and in "The Constant" he has no cheek injury at all, yet according to the freighter timeline, that was just before he appeared in "Ji Yeon."

Either there is a HUGE production error here (which I just said a couple posts ago I don't like to believe), or something else is going on. Unfortunately, at this point, I find myself leaning toward the production error idea.

#241. Posted by: ealgumby at May 11, 2008 9:11 PM

@Zeb/211
"However, the non-linear nature of the island/world interface would greatly facilitate 'moving the island'. You don't have to actually move the land mass; you just reconfigure the doorway between the island and the rest of the world."

I'm with you, at least for now ... somehow changing the "correct" heading to/from the island would effectively "move" it.

This seemed to happen with the first "purple sky" incident, and I'm guessing there will be yet another Locke-induced purple sky event soon, to change the course, and hence move the island.

#242. Posted by: ealgumby at May 11, 2008 9:18 PM

@vacc/221
"For all we know, relative to the 815 crash, the Black Rock could've landed on the Island MUCH more recently than 150 years ago"

I agree, and suggested as much in MKJ/165:

"How do we know the Black Rock has been there for so long? It makes perfect 'sense' in terms of the physics that the Black Rock could’ve been deposited on the island (and I mean 'on,' as shown in the show, far from the coast) far in the future, given the correct heading upon approach to the island."

#243. Posted by: ealgumby at May 11, 2008 9:22 PM

@Scooby-Dude/228
"@vacc 221 and 68
I pulled the Black Rock date from Lostpedia, but point taken about time being relative and the Black Rock crash date being unknown. But even if there's a time discrepancy, why would Desmond's boat reach the island in the generally 'correct' timeline and the Black Rock go so far off course?"

I also agree, and suggested as much in TSoTtC/136:

"Finally, one thing that bothers me, just a bit. I think we have firmly established that being only slightly 'off-course' when coming to/leaving the island (rocket, helo, ...) induces some time travel effect. Yet, Desmond was able to stumble upon the island in his boat, and the plane (815) crash, with no apparent time dilation effects. What gives? They just 'happened' to hit the exactly correct course, both times? This may be a clue (someone/something actively guiding them to the island on purpose), or just production liberty ... who knows (well, I guess the producers/writers)?"

#244. Posted by: ealgumby at May 11, 2008 9:27 PM

@vacc/238
"When the time comes to move the Island, we will see the entire land mass rise slowly out of the water."

Don't laugh too hard ... check out the image on the comic book as little Locke makes his decision:

tinyurl.com/5mr4lp

That looks like a cloud city floating on by to me! Possibly even carried aloft by Smokey (looks kinda like Smokey under the cloud)!

Maybe no crazier than any other idea ...

#245. Posted by: ealgumby at May 11, 2008 9:33 PM

I don't want to keep coming back to this, but I totally think that it is a *possibility* that Ben and Locke are half brothers. We shouldn't just blow off the coincedence of them both having mothers with the same name. In real life that would be a normal coincedence.....but in LOST? It's got to mean something. Just because Swoosie Kurtz plays Locke's mother (if she really was Locke's mother) and someone else played Ben's mom doesn't mean much. As someone stated earlier, often these shows will cast different actresses to play the same characters at different ages.

@Meg/#220 check out my post #113. I put in some links of pictures of both of the Emilys right after giving birth. It's two different actresses, but they look awfully alike....could be casted to portray the same person.

#246. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 11, 2008 10:01 PM

Were there bullets in the gun that Jack pulled the trigger on Locke with? or was that another case of the island protecting someone like Mike with Keamy?

#247. Posted by: mtncbn at May 11, 2008 11:32 PM

Since Locke's real mom (Emily)bolted (or so we are led to believe) my guess is that he was adopted by the women we see now as his Mom while as he is growing up. Perhaps she even married the man Locke thinks is his father and eventually donated his kidney to. So,if Emily eventually married and had Ben, he and Ben could indeed be half brothers. I also agree that Penny's father was the former leader of the "Island". Ben was next and Locke will be the new one. Perhaps Ben and Annie thought that their child would inherit the title from Ben, but the child and Annie died so Ben took Alex. He brought Juliet to the island so that Alex's child would survive someday and continue the "lineage". I also think that the leader of the island goes far, far back in time and space to an ancient time typified by the 4 toed statue.
We shall see.....

#248. Posted by: lost-but-thinking at May 12, 2008 12:50 AM

PS....and Aaron will follow Locke as the chosen one..some day.Clare is likely dead and although Kate is raising Aaron now, who knows who his final "parents" will be?

#249. Posted by: lost-but-thinking at May 12, 2008 1:06 AM

@244:

The time shifts we've seen due to travel to and from the island have all been limited to a couple days. When compared to how long Desmond, the Black Rock, et al. have been on the island, such a time shift would not be easily notable.

#250. Posted by: Brian Douglas at May 12, 2008 1:32 AM

@214/Scooby-Dude:
"1. Was anyone else disappointed that Keamy's gun jammed when he was trying to shoot Michael?"

Are you kidding? MICHAEL was disappointed that it didn't go off! He's in a bizarre predicament: He's actively suicidal, but (for the time being) immortal. He can't die for his sins until the Island is done with him.

Fate, it seems, is not only a fickle bitch, but a tad sadistic as well.

#251. Posted by: Zeb at May 12, 2008 9:17 AM

I noticed that when the Docs throat is slit, the cut on his cheek is healing not stitched as when he is found on the beach.
What does this mean in time.

#252. Posted by: btly at May 12, 2008 9:45 AM

I have been reading this every week and love all of your notes. but this last episode has me wondering about three things.
perhaps momma Locke was not preg prior to the accident. (she did not look it) but inseminated by someone in connection to the island.

is this a past or future Claire on the island because she looks (hair) different...the writers don't seem like they would allow an actor to change their appearance so drastically.

does anyone remember Locke showing Walt how to throw the knife..and the comic book was Walts. maybe Locke gives Walt the knife in a future flash?

#253. Posted by: bean116 at May 12, 2008 9:55 AM

The Black Rock:
The problem with it being either from the very distant past or the future is that it is a mid-19th century design.

Is it being suggested that some ancient civilization had the design for a ship from the future, a shp that wouldn't be seen by the rest of the world until the mid 1800s? Or is it being suggested that a future civilization chose an obsolete design to sail the open sea?

Also: The 4 toed statue...Isn't that indicative of a point way farther along the evolutionary scale than we are now?

#254. Posted by: undaunted at May 12, 2008 10:12 AM

Zeb:

I like the way you think and I like the way you write.

#255. Posted by: undaunted at May 12, 2008 10:16 AM

@vacc 238 re: jumping the shark:
That's gonna keep me laughing at least til Thursday. Hilarious! I bet Cuse and Lindelof are now desperately trying to reach Henry Winkler for a cameo.

#256. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 12, 2008 10:45 AM

How do you move an island? By not punching the numbers.

Expanding on ealgumby's posts 239 and 242, my theory is that punching the numbers in the Swan station prevented the island's electromagnetism from being released. When the numbers were not punched, the island's electromagnetism was released, time got skewed and the island thus "moved" (the island's movement being of time, not place). In this way Ben was able to keep the island in a time position that neither Widmore nor anyone else knew about. He could have set off an event once, perhaps when Rousseau's crew arrived on the island, and "moved" the island so that Widmore couldn't find it. Then he made sure the numbers were punched in the hatch so the island would maintain its position.

It's also possible the controlled electromagnetism created a vibrating time effect. Picture a prizefighter standing in the middle of the ocean. You sail up to him and throw a jab. He ducks and you miss, and when you look again he's standing in the same spot. Then you throw a right hook. Same result. Every time you try to connect, it's as if he's not there, but every time you look up he's there. This would be a time drift theory that may have been discussed here previously.

Unfortunately for Ben, moving the island can have unintended consequences, requiring later course corrections. For example, Frank Lapidus was supposed to be the pilot on 815, so now his destiny has been altered, requiring a course correction. In addition, Desmond's failure to press the buttons -- and the resulting electromagnetic footprint it left behind, plus the mysterious Oceanic crash -- were probably both clues that helped Widmore locate the island again.

When Locke failed to push the buttons and the hatch was destroyed, the island moved once again, but by this time Widmore was already close and was likely able to tweak his settings to find the correct one. Per ealgumby's post #239, when Michael left the island, the setting was 315. Then the purple event occurred (right?), at which point the setting changed to its current 305. That probably wouldn't be difficult for Widmore to figure out.

But now that the hatch has been destroyed, Ben/Locke have to find some other way to control the island's electromagnetism and thus move and protect the island. The Dharma Initiative was nothing if not thorough. It's possible, even likely, that there is a secondary way to control the electromagnetism, a way that even Ben doesn't know about. Again I agree with ealgumby that we will see another Locke-induced purple sky event.

The danger, however, is that if the electromagnetism is not released in a controlled way, who knows what could happen. Perhaps the island becomes something akin to a black hole. Or the island drifts in time and continues to run into concurrent timelines, eventually resulting in an uncontrollable number of altered event timelines that are too numerous to be course-corrected. That's why it's crucial to have the island's keeper be someone who has good judgment and is trustworthy and why it was so important to test Locke throughout his life to see if he fit the bill.

I'm still trying to figure out how Desmond landing on the island fits into this theory, other than plain dumb luck, which I find hard to believe.

#257. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 12, 2008 11:21 AM

246. Posted by: notsoeasy: As someone stated earlier, often these shows will cast different actresses to play the same characters at different ages.

That may very well be true, but I am not convinced that they are the same Emily. And usually, if a different actor or actress is used to portray a different age, it's a much younger age, such as a teenager or child, as in 15 or 16 year old Emily vs Swoozie Kurtz Emily. If what you are saying is true, why wouldnt they have a different actor play a younger Ben, right before the purge? Or why wouldnt John be played by a different actor before he was crippled? Or a younger Kate before the fire? No, instead of paying another actor, they just pay a make up artist to slap some hair on bald headed John, lol.

The only thing that might convince me that the Emily's are the same would be if Swoozie told me that she refused to play another walk on role as Ben's Mom. ;)

#258. Posted by: Keluha at May 12, 2008 11:42 AM

*=========

More random thoughts:

*=========

@116 davidrh observed:

>They’re doing LAUREL AND HARDY!!!!!

Amazing - that was exactly my reaction, too.

*=========

@119 lostrn theorized:

>...who really knows is that was actually Locke's father or not.
From the look the grandmother gave Alpert- she recognized him.

Maybe Richard is Locke's father AND his grandfather. Shades of 'Chinatown'.

*=========

@110 Alaïs pondered:

>Speaking of Alex & Danielle makes me think of the radio transmissions. If Dharma/Hanso/Widmore were keeping the island a secret, why would there be a radio transmission of the numbers in plain view (so to speak)? Sam Toomey & Crazy Leonard were able to pick up the transmission whie in the military...wouldn't there be some interest by the military or amateur radio experts on what this string of repeated numbers meant & where it's coming from?

It's not always that easy to tell, in the real world. Google on "filipino monkey' for an example. Add in the apparent hiding and moving powers of the island, and it becomes even more difficult.

*=========

@158 Shayde calculated:

>I decided to plug in 4815162342 and divide that by the PI button...What i got was a whole number...For those of you unfamiliar with "PI" it is a never-ending, irrational #...So, for the amount of decimal places for PI stored on that calculator, i thought that was kinda odd...Probably just coincidence...I don't know what do u think?

What calculator are you using? I get 1532713777.0384949323995494255331 which is almost 4% off from a whole number. Sure you didn't have rounding set?

*=========

@161 JaneSweetz cogitated:

>1. About the DI letting Danielles' signaL go for years before they were killed, to disable it someone would have had to venture outside of the protective gates and possibly meet up
with the smoke monster and "the hostiles" . If they knew it was blocked anyway they wouldn't
have bothered. Maybe they also wanted to stay hidden "others style".

The 'Others' and the 'Hostiles' are two terms for the same people - one used by the Losties and one used by Dharma. And they've shown no hesitancy to roam all over the island outside the sonic fence.

*=========

@162 ilovebenjaminlinusxx wondered:

>So how did he (Frank Lapidus) know Widmore to begin with?

I'm guessing from when Frank called the hotline to OAL when viewing the underwater pics to report they were fakes.

*=========

@171 stevenm speculated:

>Who wants to bet that Alpert and Abbadon have four toes?

Appropos of not much, near my childhood home town in Colbert County, Alabama, there are some limestone slabs in some overhanging rock cliffs that would make good primitive campsites, that have fossilised human-appearing footprints with four toes. Cue twilight zone music.

*=========

@176 So_Lost observed:

>I also got a deja vu on the stairs when Abbadon had Locke sitting there and it reminded me of Booone's nanny falling down the stairs.

I was definitely tensing up for Abbadon to puch Locke down the stairs, but aparently Locke never thought about it.

*=========

@186 August Paul queried:

>My biggest problem is why Christian Shepard?

A very good question for which I don't think we yet have a clue.

>What would Widmore gain by torching the island?

Another good one. Nothing I can see. And how would you go about torching and island that size? Was that s suitcase nuke being loaded into that duffe bag? Is Widmore the worlds
9th nuclear power?

*=========

>Also, one last question. How many epi's do we have left and is the season final two hours?

Three - one this Thursday 5/15, then skip a week, then a two-parter on 5/29.

*=========

Parvati! Freaking Parvati instead of Amanda? Are you kidding me?

Oops, wrong show again.

#259. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 12, 2008 11:52 AM

@ealgumby/241

There seems to always be production errors in TV and movies...one shot, woman has her long hair in front, next shot, her hair is pushed behind her shoulders and you know within that split second, she didn't actually push her hair back. Or, one shot, the glass of milk on the table is half full and then a split second later, it's a full glass. Those kind of production errors are almost expected with scenes cut out, retakes of scenes, etc. I don't think this is the case here. The doctor's multi stage facial injury is different in several episodes. With the level of detail and the importance it plays in this show makes me think that it is a part of the whole big mystery. They may even have a FB and show how the "now dead" doc got the gash in the first place. (Unless they already said and I missed it.) There are way too many pieces of this puzzle being added to the pile without much progress on the completion of the puzzle. Okay, if only 3 hours left in the season...what loose ends could they tie up and what new questions will present themselves for us to ponder until Oct or Nov?

#260. Posted by: boodle at May 12, 2008 12:23 PM

@116 davidrh observed:

>They’re doing LAUREL AND HARDY!!!!!

so maybe the whispers were actually hurley saying "this is another fine mess you've gotten us into" ????

#261. Posted by: surefoot at May 12, 2008 12:36 PM

WHEW!!!!!......finally made it through all the comments.....some dam good theories being posted.

#188@Apollo.....i think i just fell in love with you :)

peace&love to all

#262. Posted by: tiffani at May 12, 2008 12:50 PM

I know that Carlton and Damon have said countless times that the island is NOT purgatory. However, the more we see/learn, the more this seems to be the case.

All roads seem to point to purgatory. All of this "he chose to stay" business and the ghosts/souls that are stuck in limbo.

Could Jacob be the devil incarnate? He gives people a choice: stay withe me, here on this "island paradise" adn do my bidding in return for eternal "life" (albeit in an undead state)....OR....
if you choose to leave this island and deny my offer, then you face the consequences just like any other mortal. You can not return here and you will not be given this chance again.

Immortal life or real-world mortality?

It would kinda explain the ghosts: sent to haunt the ones that chose mortality and also the devil's ability to "conjur" up immortal souls of those who chose to stay with him (i.e. Cooper, Christian).

A random (probably really dumb) theory but just wanted to put it out there. Don't shoot me down in too many flames!

#263. Posted by: GatorGal at May 12, 2008 2:22 PM

239. Posted by: ealgumby

Good Grief. Following this shows intricate plot is beginning to be like work. If you are correct, I wonder how many other things I have overlooked.

I don't know if you are right or not but you have excellent observation skills!

#264. Posted by: berkyo at May 12, 2008 2:54 PM

and the comic book was Walts. maybe Locke gives Walt the knife in a future flash?
→ 253. Posted by: bean116

Sorry, I thought that too and posted it here.In my usual post first and check later fashion, I found the comic given to Walt by Hurley (And it was in Spanish too) was different.

#265. Posted by: berkyo at May 12, 2008 3:09 PM

257. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

Okay, so I just watched the second season epi where Eko gives the missing piece of tape that he found to Locke.

Why would someone clip that piece out? The missing piece was a warning to NOT use the pc as a means to contact the outside world. So whoever clipped it and stored it in the tali sections hatch in a box with a class eyeball (Patchy?), WANTED someone to try to connect with the outside world and maybe screw up and NOT push the button.

#266. Posted by: berkyo at May 12, 2008 3:22 PM

Maybe Locke is RA's constant...

Maybe Ben is older than we know...

???

#267. Posted by: TruRuan at May 12, 2008 4:11 PM

I've still got something eating my craw regarding the dead doctor washing up on the shore.

One could say that the doctor was dumped overboard pretty much at the same time that the helicopter with the mercenaries took off again for the shore.

Now I know that ship time and shore time are supposed to be different. That's been proven by the transmission saying the doctor was alive and well even though he was laying right in front of them dead.

What gets me, though, is how can the doctor's body meander to shore with the tides and get there in the "past" but the helicopter somehow arrives ashore at some point in the future (from the point in time of the morse code transmission from Faraday)? What, the doctor's body chose a better course than the helicopter?

This brings up a very unsettling idea which someone else already mentioned in a different post in some form but which I'm putting directly to the group based on the indisputable facts. If I lay down in the ocean, can I get back to shore in the "past", then fly back to the ship in a helicopter, and then lay down again in the ocean and go back further into the "past" on the island, or at the very least pretty darn close to the point in time that I arrived in the first place?

What I'm saying, basically, is that they've either messed up big time (which I cannot believe) or they've made it a fact that you can get to the shore at different points in time certainly by method and perhaps also based on direction of travel.

#268. Posted by: LostedIt at May 12, 2008 4:36 PM

I've always liked Jack. Why does he have to be so stupid? I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt about following the sat phone beacon, but it just seems he's leading everyone astray, again.

I hope Sayid jumps in and saves the day, I've always liked him, too.

I think Ben is just waiting for John to screw up again. He seems way too mellow right now.

#269. Posted by: LostMamacita at May 12, 2008 4:40 PM

So we never discussed the significance of Arturo.

The reason I bring this up is because he seemed pretty cool with everything that was going on. Maybe he's not JUST Tom's lover-boy (if he even is for that matter)... maybe he's also:
1. An other
2. Works for Ben in some way
3. Spy for Widmore

Because it seems like he knew about everything. Any normal person wouldn't just sit back and listen to all that without asking questions and being confused.

If I remember correctly, he left the room? But still... If he and Tom were "involved" he would still need to know what's going on.

#270. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 12, 2008 4:40 PM

RE: Doc's stitches

What if... the doctor woke up while floating towards the island, took a needle and thread out of his pocket, stiched himself up in the salt water, and then died again!!!...?

#271. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 12, 2008 4:56 PM

@berkyo 266
I thought the Dharma IM system was only internal, that only the Flame station had contact with the outside world. But that doesn't explain who redacted the tape and why.

That reminds me, though. When we first saw the Flame, didn't Patchy brief Ben about Oceanic 815 and say he would research the passengers? That would seem to indicate that Ben had nothing to do with the crash.

On a side note, I wonder if Widmore already had some people on the island, prior to the freighter's arrival, but didn't have any way to communicate with them because Patchy controlled the Flame station.

#272. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 12, 2008 5:01 PM

→ 271. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx
Was that before he jumped the shark or after?

#273. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 12, 2008 5:07 PM

@ 263/ GatorGal

I have never ruled out that the show is about purgatory, hell, heaven or the limbo of the afterlife.

If the show's premise and mythology is based upon real time, Earth physics and known principles of science to explain the mysteries of the island, it seems to be harder to explain all the apparent inconsistencies in what we believe are easily proven facts.

If the show's mythology is set in another plane of existence, then our general knowledge of the facts, science and events on the island is moot.

#274. Posted by: welh at May 12, 2008 5:17 PM

→ 268. Posted by: LostedIt
Doctor Floaty and the Case of the Confusing Timeline

I promised myself a while ago that I wouldn't speculate on time travel paradoxes (paradoxi?), since time travel theories invariably fall apart when placed up against current grounded science. That being said, tweaking my earlier post, perhaps the electromagnetic property of the island has the gravitational effect of pulling objects toward it both physically and backwards in time, but objects arriving in the air are not subject to this pull and so travel forward in "real" time.

#275. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 12, 2008 5:20 PM

I thought of this while I was sleeping last night. Someone may have mentioned this before, but ill say it anyway.

Even though it seems like it was fate for many of the characters (if not all… at least the ones that aren’t shot off comically) to end up on the island, it appears possible that a considerable amount of effort has gone into bringing some people to Australia and onto the “ill-fated” 815. Although I guess, whether it was fate that brought them together or intentional efforts is debatable.

(If someone could maybe compile a concise list of how we think people were manipulated to getting onto the plane, that’ll be great – ill work on one for later as well).

Now, we know what brought down 815 was the Desmond incident at the hatch after the timer reached zero. So if it WAS fate and destiny that brought them all together, then there is nothing to look into;
- Fate/destiny would determine each’ role on the island
- Fate/destiny would intertwine their lives through subtle connections
- Fate/destiny would bring them all to Australia and put them on 815
- Fate/destiny would set of the series of events that would result in Des bringing down the plane.

This would be a dull explanation. We’d be left with a just a why.

In my mind it seems quite possible that oceanic flight 815 was indeed brought down by the events we saw, but it wasn’t the same 815. Perhaps an 815 from an alternate time frame crashed onto the island, which allowed observers from the current time (observed on the island) such as: Ben; Jacob; Widmore; RA or whoever knows how to retrieve information across time lines, to take advantage of the situation.

The plane we saw at the bottom of the ocean COULD have been the real 815, just not the one from the same timeline. And since the “observer” knew a plane would crash at that time, had been for a long time manipulating all these people to get to Australia and board the plane destined to crash. So:

- “Observer” observes plane crash in timeline A, due to Des incident.
- “Observer” Goes back in time, creating timeline B. With timeline A now on a parallel path.
- “Observer” Manipulates events and people in timeline B to fulfill needs or a plan (s)he may have. (For example, this person knows Ben will need a surgeon from timeline A, so ‘gets’ Jack onto the island in t.l.- B. I’m not saying Ben, RA or Jacob is the “Observer”, just a thought)
- “Observer” replaces the 815 that crashes onto the island in timeline B, with the one from timeline A which is the one we see at the bottom of the ocean.

With time travel already introduced, it seems plausible to me. Plus were left with more interesting questions to ask, and none of that fate/destiny stuff.

Is it coming across? It seems clearer in my head I’m not sure if I’m making it clear..

There are a few gaps with what I stated which I should think more about, maybe someone has already. Such as, by bringing 815 from t.l.- A into B, what happens to the people in t.l.- B who dies in the crash from t.l.- A? Or does it even matter since they never meet, like we’ve seen with the rabbits. As in; they can exist in the same time line, just not come into contact. Also, how one would travel across time, let alone bring a whole plane w/dead people back in time?

I’m sure theres more, but its getting quite too long now… sorry

#276. Posted by: Apollo at May 12, 2008 5:49 PM

@268.LostedIt:

It could very well be that, because the doctor's body was drifting lowly to shore, there was more time for the island's time-distorting property to work on it. So a longer, slower route might indeed get you to the island at an earlier time than something traveling in a straight line at high speed. Hey, this is time travel - it doesn't need to make sense.

However, I suspect that you can't use this effect to go back and meet yourself. It could be set up so that, from the time you leave a certain place to the time you return to it, some amount of (forward) time always passes. It just may be more, or less, than you expect.

#277. Posted by: Zeb at May 12, 2008 5:51 PM

@ Tiffani (262)
Hi! I’m glad u enjoyed it :)

@ Clementine (233)
No. Yes. Surely no one could have an innate perception of God or faith in the terms I stated before. If a child were presented with this (or a similar) test, it would be very interesting to observe their development had they selected representations of matter, motion and knowledge. But yes, Locke should have if he was ‘special’ (or ‘ready’) and true to Locke philosophy.

#278. Posted by: Apollo at May 12, 2008 6:08 PM

Hello all Great review Mac!

Think about the Time Travel info, the two that keep bothering me are Michael and Walt, and the food drop.

There must be a few different worm holes on and off the island, all effecting time differently. Could the drops have all been sent at the same time years ago timed to arrive in intervals? Why did Michael and Walts time line not change(his mom said he was gone for 2 months and that is what island time was).

That's all I have for now.

#279. Posted by: Dakota at May 12, 2008 6:43 PM

Long time watcher, 1st time poster

Great recap as always!

I did a search and found a strange "book of laws" at
http://www.ronitgalapo.com/b-laws.asp.
and several other books - one entitled
"a day at a time".
Does anyone know if this is another "Lost Clue" or a real posting.

#280. Posted by: Mark at May 12, 2008 6:45 PM

My apologies is someone else has posted, but, what if the original hypothesis that Christian is dead, is wrong. [ i've never thought he was, as his coffin was empty ]

In Jack's original Flash-Forward, he challenges his boss, about his being drunk and states something to the like "If i'm drunker than my father."

#281. Posted by: mindy at May 12, 2008 7:49 PM

@notsoeasy/246
"We shouldn't just blow off the coincedence of them both having mothers with the same name."

Maybe not so weird ... check out this link to the U.S. Social Security Administration's list of the most popular baby names for 2007 (Jacob and Emily):

tinyurl.com/mcq2

NINTH straight year that both Jacob and Emily have been at the top of the respective lists! Now, this was surely not the case back when Ben & John were born, but the writers will also certainly pander a bit to their audience ... it may even be somewhat of an inside joke among the writers.

#282. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 7:58 PM

@undaunted/254
"The problem with it being either from the very distant past or the future is that it is a mid-19th century design."

Yes, the ship was from the 19th century, but that's not to say it's when it was left on the island. I will repeat part of my post from MKJ/165 to clarify (and not saying I agree with all of this, just putting it out there):

"How do we know the Black Rock has been there for so long? It makes perfect 'sense' in terms of the physics that the Black Rock could’ve been deposited on the island (and I mean 'on,' as shown in the show, far from the coast) far in the future, given the correct heading upon approach to the island. Some interesting tidbits obtained from Lostpedia about the Black Rock ... left England in 1845 on its final journey ... the journal was lost off Madagascar seven years later ... the ship was lost some time after that(?). Dynamite was invented in 1866 (from wiki, not Lostpedia) ... how did dynamite get on the boat, if during that last fateful voyage? I suggest the ship’s crew may have stumbled upon the island, were able to escape the 'storm' surrounding the island, but found themselves still afloat in the future, where wonderful new things like dynamite would’ve been available.

Realizing the island was mystical, they went back a second time, but weren’t so lucky this time ... the ship ended up in the middle of the island, stranding the few survivors (Richard Alpert among them?) there some time shortly before Dharma arrived. They are the 'hostiles.'”

#283. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:05 PM

@Scooby-Dude/257
"when Michael left the island, the setting was 315. Then the purple event occurred (right?), at which point the setting changed to its current 305. That probably wouldn't be difficult for Widmore to figure out.

But now that the hatch has been destroyed, Ben/Locke have to find some other way to control the island's electromagnetism and thus move and protect the island."

I suggest Widmore found the island during the brief interval between the first purple-sky event, and when the Desmond-activated "failsafe" mechanism kicked in. The island "moved" to a new correct heading of 305 degrees (from 315), where the failsafe kicked in and is holding it at that position.

Locke has now been directed by Christian/Jacob to "move" the island ... hence I think he'll find the failsafe mechanism (at the Temple?), and disrupt it again, causing another purple sky, and "moving" the island yet again (to another correct heading), so Widmore can no longer find it (perhaps the case when Ben confronted him in bed?).

#284. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:12 PM

@ealgumby/284

I have a slight tweak to that general theory as well, first presented several episodes ago ...

The correct course is slowly drifting from 305 degrees even "now," hence the slowly increasing (apparent) time differential between events on the island and on the freighter. This would be because the failsafe mechanism activated by Desmond's key is not being "calibrated" to keep the course steady. I believe that was the purpose of the "108 minute" thing, and as I've mentioned a while ago, corresponds exactly to the orbital period of a polar orbiting calibration satellite known as TempSat1 (the ONLY satellite with a 108-minute period). Because TempSat1 is in a polar orbit, it can be "seen" once every 108 minutes from a communications station located near either of the poles (hence, the arctic station, and Ben's parka). I belive "the button in the hatch" was used to keep the course steady at 305 degrees via calibration measurements to TempSat1 from the polar station ... since the failsafe mechanism ins't being calibrated, the correct course is slowly drifting, which Faraday is very well aware of.

#285. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:20 PM

@berkyo/266
"Why would someone clip that piece out? The missing piece was a warning to NOT use the pc as a means to contact the outside world. So whoever clipped it and stored it in the tali sections hatch in a box with a class eyeball (Patchy?), WANTED someone to try to connect with the outside world and maybe screw up and NOT push the button."

Hmm ... maybe the cap words "VOICE OF WARNING" on the comic now make some sense?

#286. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:23 PM

@LostedIt/268
"What gets me, though, is how can the doctor's body meander to shore with the tides and get there in the "past" but the helicopter somehow arrives ashore at some point in the future (from the point in time of the morse code transmission from Faraday)? What, the doctor's body chose a better course than the helicopter?"

Actually, exactly ... the helo is flying a controlled course, to minimize time-offset effects, while the doc's body, freely adrift, could end up following a course that sets him back in time (see Kerr metric, frame dragging, time cones, etc.).

#287. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:26 PM

@Zeb/277

"However, I suspect that you can't use this effect to go back and meet yourself."

Isn't that what happened to bunny #15 though? According to the Novikov Principle, this could be possible, as long as the "course-corrected worldline" is returned to at the point in the future when you went back to meet yourself. Sounds hokey, but seems to be confirmed as a mechanism the writers are relying upon, based on interview commentary with D&C (and no, I don't mean dilatation and curettage, but that's kinda what they're doing to our minds, isn't it?).

#288. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:34 PM

Any theories yet on why the 'baseball glove' was one of the half dozen choices for young Locke? The only thing I can WAG at is the Jack connection to baseball. If it were young Jack being interviewed by Alpert, would Jack have chosen the glove and, hence more suitable to be island boss? Did Ben go through a similar interview before he got to the island with another Alpert type, or did Alpert just sit around swilling beers with Roger Linus after they got to the island, when he discovered the lad?

#289. Posted by: DocH at May 12, 2008 8:34 PM

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx/271

"What if... the doctor woke up while floating towards the island, took a needle and thread out of his pocket, stiched himself up in the salt water, and then died again!!!...?"

I would just guess, that he'd focus on stitching his gaping throat wound first! :)

#290. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:36 PM

@Apollo/276

I have to agree with you ... there has to be some kind of outside manipulation to make things come out "just right" in terms of who/when various people have arrived at the island. Who exactly is behind this manipulation, and how it was pulled off are yet to be seen.

#291. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:41 PM

@Dakota/279
"Could the drops have all been sent at the same time years ago timed to arrive in intervals?"

Exactly! Dharma, knowing the exact effect of course to the island, could have sent them all off at once, on slightly different courses, such that the drops would arrive at regular intervals in the future. Therefore, the DI doesn't need to exist "now" ... the cargo drops, past, present, and future, have already been "sent" when they were in charge!

#292. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:45 PM

@DocH/289
"Any theories yet on why the 'baseball glove' was one of the half dozen choices for young Locke?"

I've wondered about that myself ... it was the only object (save perhaps the comic under the knife) that wasn't explicitly "panned to" via little John's perspective, before he picked up the knife.

#293. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 8:48 PM

...the writers will also certainly pander a bit to their audience...
→ 282. Posted by: ealgumby

...TempSat1 is in a polar orbit...
→ 285. Posted by: ealgumby

Thanks, E.L, for bringing it all back to da bears (panda and polar): something I can finally grasp!

Seriously, I don't always understand the scientific and technical stuff you write, but continue to be fascinated by all of it. Occasionally, it even makes sense. ;-))

#294. Posted by: lovelost at May 12, 2008 9:19 PM

→ 276. Posted by: Apollo
If someone could maybe compile a concise list of how we think people were manipulated to getting onto the plane...

Not so concise, but here's my shot at it, starting with the Oceanic 6, all of whom it could be argued should NOT have been on the flight:

Kate: Some connection with toy Oceanic airplane she buried in time capsule as a child and later recovered with boyhood friend Tom, who was shot and killed by a cop. Kate fled dead Tom and the toy, but later recovered it when she robbed a New Mexico bank, after the marshall told her it was there. She escaped to Florida, where she married Kevin, who incidentally purchased tickets on Oceanic from Miami to Costa Rica (right airline, wrong flight). After drugging and ditching him, she fled to Australia on her own, but why Australia, we don't know. After she was caught, the Marshall got her on Oceanic 815. How or why she had a toy Oceanic airplane as a kid is unknown, though it would seem to indicate her mother or father or stepfather had some connection to Oceanic.
Likely Suspects: The Marshall and Kate's adoptive father, Sam, who taught Kate how to hunt and track and has shown up in Korea and Iraq and has met Sayid and Kelvin.
Tidbit: She was caught and placed on the flight because she chose to save the life of the farmer she had been working for.

Sayid: Recruited by Australian intelligence and the CIA to infiltrate a terrorist cell in Sydney. Afterwards, he's given a ticket to L.A.
Likely Suspect: CIA agent Cole, who told him Nadia was living in Irvine, CA.
Tidbit: Almost flew to L.A. a day earlier, but he himself asks to wait a day in order to give his former college roommate a proper Muslim burial, because he had convinced him to become a suicide bomber in order to get intelligence to take possession of stolen explosives. The former roommate committed suicide after discovering Sayid's deception.

Sun: On business trip with Jin to Sydney and Los Angeles.
Likely Suspect: Mr. Paik
Tidbit: Was planning to ditch Jin and the flight but changed her mind at the last minute.

Hurley: Leonard implanted numbers in his head in asylum, Hugo played the lottery and won, bad luck ensued. Leonard then told him he had "opened the box" and he should go see Sam Tooney, Leonard's friend from the Navy, in Australia. There, Sam's wife told him that Sam and Leonard had first heard the numbers at a Navy listening station in the South Pacific.
Likely Suspects: Leonard and/or Sam.
Tidbit: Had some problems making it onto the flight.

Jack: Went to Australia to search for missing father, where he learned he had died from an alcohol-induced heart attack. Was on 815 returning the body to the U.S.
Likely Suspect: Unknown. It's possible his alive father was the one who was supposed to be on the flight, not Jack.
Tidbit: Had trouble getting casket on plane and even once he did, it's unclear whether the body was in the casket.

Aaron: See Claire (below)
Likely Suspect: Unknown
Tidbit: Should not have been on flight based on psychic's original warning to Claire (see below)

And the rest:

Claire: Four months after psychic Richard Malkin told Claire she had to raise her baby herself, he reversed himself and ultimately convinced her to give her child up for adoption to a couple in L.A. who were "good people."
Likely Suspect: Richard Malkin

Charlie: Flew to Sydney to convince Liam to re-form Driveshaft. Liam refused and Charlie bought his ticket on 815.
Likely Suspect: Unknown.
Tidbit: He was supposed to be in the tail section. Now he's dead.

Ana Lucia: Convinced by Christian Shephard to accompany him to Australia as his bodyguard. Left him sudently and booked her ticket on the tail end.
Possible Suspect: Christian Shephard

Bernard: Took Rose to faith healer in Australia. Proposed to Rose at restaurant in Niagara Falls.
Possible Suspect: Faith healer
Tidbit: Was seated in middle but ended up in tail section during turbulence and crash. Now alive.

Rose: Went with Bernard to faith healer in Australia, who said he couldn't heal her because she was in the "wrong place."
Possible Suspect: Faith healer

Eko: Serving as a priest in Australia, where he investigates Charlotte Malkin's death and resurrection. Is approached by a man who provides a passport for Eko to travel to L.A. Don't recall the reason.
Possible Suspects: Richard Malkin, Charlotte Malkin

Libby (Surname Unknown): Unknown why in Australia or on the flight.
Possible Suspects: Charles Widmore, Mr. Paik, Ben. She figures in Hugo's and Desmond's backstories, could be a plant.
Tidbit: Tailee. Now dead, killed by Michael by mistake.

Locke: Well after Abaddon suggests he go on a walkabout and his breakup with Helen, he goes to Australia. There, he is told he's not allowed to go because of his wheelchair. He prepares to go home on 815.

Sawyer: Tricked by partner Hibbs that Frank Duckett was the original Sawyer. James went to Australia and killed him. Arrested after a bar fight and ordered deported to America. Unclear whether this was same bar or same night as his run-in with Christian Shephard.
Possible Suspects: Christian Shephard, Hibbs

Jin: On business trip to Sydney and Los Angeles for Mr. Paik
Likely Suspect: Mr. Paik

Michael and Walt: Michael married Susan, she was offered a job in Amsterdam and left him, taking Walt. After a heated call fighting over custody, Michael is hit by a car (happens a lot, doesn't it?) Susan marries Brian Porter, who tells Michael years later that Susan died of a rare blood disorder and he should come to Australia to take custody of Walt, whom Brian can't handle due to his strange abilities. Michael calls his mother before the flight, asking her to take care of Walt.
Likely Suspect: Brian Porter, who offers Michael the plane tickets to and from Sydney.

Walt: Brian's dog. Brian told Michael that Walt could keep him.
Likely Suspect: Brian

Shannon, Boone, Nikki, Paulo: R.I.P. and seeingly peripheral characters.

Seth Norris, Pilot: Only survivor from front section of plane. Now dead. Lapidus was supposed to have been the pilot.

In conclusion, there is evidence that each individual could have feasibly been manipulated onto the flight. Taken together, however, if there was a plan in place to get them on the same flight on the same day, the odds against accomplishing that feat would be astronomical without the use of time traveling to manipulate pre-flight circumstances. But since there is ample evidence that time travel is part of Lost canon, the theory that people were manipulated onto the flight still seems to have merit.

#295. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 12, 2008 9:28 PM

@ealgumby/285

For those of you tech types who may be interested ... here are some links to info about TEMPSAT 1 (discovered web searches on TempSat1 reveal nothing useful ...):

First are the "two-line element sets" used by NORAD to track ALL satellites ... the second-last item on the second line is the number of orbital revolutions per day for the satellite (compute orbital period by dividing 1440 minutes per day by this number ... for TEMPSAT 1, 108.007 minutes, and given its altitude [determined by semi-major axis, the third item on the first line, in km from the earth's center, with the earth's mean radius generally accepted to be 6378.145 km], the satellite is high enough to have nearly zero loss of altitude [and hence, orbital period] due to atmospheric drag effects ... it will effectively stay at 108-minute period forever):

tinyurl.com/44837e

More (limited) info on the satellite:

tinyurl.com/4vamdo
tinyurl.com/52s75p
tinyurl.com/42qmzx
tinyurl.com/3rdg67

You will not find much more about this sat ... just as the Others would like it! :)

#296. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 9:46 PM

@Scooby-Dude/295
"since there is ample evidence that time travel is part of Lost canon, the theory that people were manipulated onto the flight still seems to have merit."

WOW ... I am impressed with your analysis! Excellent work! Seriously, how long did it take to gather all that info? My mind is still reeling to think of it ... a very concise summation of Lostpedia history ... well done.

#297. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 10:00 PM

@236 Yes, Clementine, that's me. I guess I'm having an identity crisis. This show gets me so confused I don't even know who I am anymore.

#298. Posted by: pebspostal at May 12, 2008 10:11 PM

@lovelost/294
"Thanks, E.L, for bringing it all back to da bears"

My God, you HAVE it! From Wiki under "Ursa Major:"

"The seven brightest stars, located in the Bear's hindquarters and tail, form the well-known Big Dipper asterism. (In Britain, this asterism is known as the Plough.) ...
In addition to the Big Dipper, another asterism comes from Arab culture — the 'leaps of the gazelle', a series of three pairs of stars:

ν and ξ Ursae Majoris, Alula Borealis and Australis, the 'first leap';
λ and μ Ursae Majoris, Tania Borealis and Australis, the 'second leap';
ι and κ Ursae Majoris, Talitha Borealis and Australis, the 'third leap'.

These stars are found along the southwest border of the constellation, the bear's toes."

We have ALL the elements here! How many "toes" do bears have ... FOUR! We have the lep of the gazelles from Arab culture ... a nod to vacc's Jinn theory! And last, but not least, the "leaps," which clearly refer to time travel! OMG!!!

;)

#299. Posted by: ealgumby at May 12, 2008 10:22 PM

re Apollo’s question as to how people were manipulated onto the plane

I’ll speculate on Why, rather than How. Why, in all the world, does the island want these particular dysfunctional people? (*Disclaimer: This being my current perspective and subject to change based on which direction I’m facing after my weekly ride on Darlton’s Sit-n-Spin.)

SAWYER: The sword. Slays Widmore dragons for Kate and Aaron to protect them and get them off the island when it becomes necessary.

KATE: Aaron’s surrogate mommy. Badass enough to protect the next Chosen One, until he grows into his legacy.

SAYID: The hit man. Eliminates anyone who comes close to finding the island (post relocation).

HURLEY: The conscience. Keeps the memory of the island alive, prompting the necessary people to return in good time (even if he has to be crazy to not forget.)

SUN: I dunno. Pivotal in a Paik/Widmore showdown? Begetter of Ji Yeon, the future matriarch of Aaron’s dynastic island clan?

JIN: See Sawyer and substitute Sun and Ji Yeon for Kate and Aaron

LOCKE: Keeper of the island (temp position only, no benefits available, some heavy moving required).

DESMOND: I dunno. Lure for Penny? Some key role in connecting timelines?

JACK: My incredible, irrational irritation with Jack precludes me from speculating objectively as to any useful purpose he may serve. (Seriously, he’s like a bad case of psoriasis.)

AARON: Baby, oh baby! He’s it!

#300. Posted by: Clementine at May 12, 2008 10:50 PM

I have difficulty with the idea that a bunch of people were manipulated onto Flight 815.

But if I did believe it, then I'd say that most of the passengers were collateral damage. Rose & Bernard for instance...What? Was she infected with cancer so her husband could be manipulated to take her to Australia for a faith healing? Wouldn't it have been easier for the manipulator to arrange while they were in Niagra Falls for them to "win" an all expenses paid vacation in Australia, which included a tri to the mysterious and healing Ayers Rock?

Three of the 06 almost didn't take the Flight at all.

Sayid chose to delay his flight and ended up on 815 by default. For that to have been manipulated it would have been necessary for the manipulator to anticipate Sayid's decision to delay his flight. So why didn't the manipulator just initially buy Sayid a ticket on 815m instead?

Jack was confronted with a monumental snafu with regard to his father's body and could easily have cancelled his flight. Wouldn't it have made sense if one was manipulating a grieving son onto Flight 815 knowing that it was going to crash anyway, to be certain that Jack new (or believed) that his father's body was safe and sound and aboard the plane?

Sun was going to leave her husband but impulsively changed her mind at the last minute.

So let's look at who we know for certain to have been manipulated onto Flight 815: Claire. That's all.

The psychic said "Go to LA now". Claire said, "But I want to wait a day or two" Psychic said, "No! It has to be this flight.The couple in LA will be waiting for you." The couple, btw, that the psychic told Claire, "They are not strangers Claire." The heck with him telling her "they're good people" He told her "They're not strangers Claire." !!!

#301. Posted by: undaunted at May 12, 2008 11:38 PM

Clementine/300:

I like that very much! And I agree 100% about Jack.

I think Desmond was stranded on the island by Widmore to keep him away from Penny. I'm hoping he walks off the freighter in Java as a crew member and makes his way back to his beloved.

SPOILER:
I'm hoping that is "The kiss" we are hearing about in the finale of season 4. But I will settle for it being Sawyer kissing Kate goodbye.

#302. Posted by: undaunted at May 12, 2008 11:50 PM

Q: Cop... "You would down an airliner full of innocent people just to kill one man?"
A: Hitman... "Absolutely!"

OA815 doesn't have to be about ALL of our characters onboard... just about the few, or the one, that the island needs. I am comfortable thinking it needed the old Adam & Eve we saw, to bring the island into existence - or a new Adam & Eve, to insure the island will continue to survive. Be it Jack & Kate or Aaron & Ji Yeon, Bernard & Rose... whatever. The island has no remorse that it took a plane full of innocents... it was targeting a much smaller area... somewhere around Row 23 to 27.

#303. Posted by: DocH at May 13, 2008 12:05 AM

→ 234. Posted by: Clementine at May 11, 2008 4:24 PM ....

Imagine, if you will, Ben's mind in Keamy's body....

Okay, Clemenine, you are KILLING me here!! I am literally dying from this one!!

#304. Posted by: meg at May 13, 2008 9:36 AM

@294/lovelost & 299/ealgumby
Bears, and Ursa Major -

ealgumby - I like the way you tied together Ursa Major, the 'leaps of the gazelle' and the connection to FOUR (bear toes)
Made me think of the game Connect Four that Leonard and Hurley play in the Loony Bin... Why?

Start by numbering the circles in a standard connect four grid from bottom to top, one row at a time from right to left.

Next, place one of the checker pieces in the circles corresponding to the LOST numbers 4,8,15,16,23,42.

The board should look like this - http://tinyurl.com/3ucmw5

When you turn the game around, to see it from the opposing player's perspective, it will look just like....
wait for it ...
... Ursa Major!!
http://tinyurl.com/3w5vr6

Adding up our numbers yields 108.. Coincidently, the spiral galaxy known as M108 happens to reside within Ursa Major.

What does this mean? Here's what I think.. I believe that this is another sign of how hard people like us will try to attribute significant meaning to ANY aspect of LOST, no matter how trivial it may be.
--------
(Case in point, I did a search on Google after I'd written up to this point and saw that the Ursa Major and M108 connection has already been made on other sites as well).

#305. Posted by: vacc at May 13, 2008 10:15 AM

I haven't been posting too much lately because I am into Prison Break and watching season 1 and 2. Does anyone watch that??

#306. Posted by: meg at May 13, 2008 10:42 AM

?I promised myself a while ago that I wouldn't speculate on time travel paradoxes (paradoxi?)...

#307. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 13, 2008 11:39 AM

DocH/303;

Precisely! The island or providence or karma or Ben or Jacob or Widmore or Paik...whatever... wanted a specific someone to arrive; everybody else was so much baggage.

The old joke about the fear of flying: 1st guy says, "When your number is up, it's up."
Second guy says, "Yeah, well I don't want to be on that plane when YOUR number is up."

So the island received the one they wanted and then it checked out the rest of the people...Just like the Lostees did with the all the baggage that washed ashore, "Maybe I'll find something useful amidst all this crap"

That's where Clementine's theory kicks in: (I've edited it. See it in it's entirety on post #300)

SAWYER: The sword. Slays Widmore dragons for Kate and Aaron to protect them and get them off the island when it becomes necessary.

KATE: Aaron’s surrogate mommy. Badass enough to protect the next Chosen One, until he grows into his legacy.

SAYID: The hit man. Eliminates anyone who comes close to finding the island (post relocation).

HURLEY: The conscience. Keeps the memory of the island alive, prompting the necessary people to return in good time (even if he has to be crazy to not forget.)

LOCKE: Keeper of the island (temp position only, no benefits available, some heavy moving required).
(Very funny Clementine!)

#308. Posted by: undaunted at May 13, 2008 11:57 AM

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

p.s. How do we know his name is Abaddon? Is it referred to in the show?

#309. Posted by: ryan at May 13, 2008 12:52 PM

As I stated before, I have never ruled out that the show is about purgatory, hell, heaven or the limbo of the afterlife.

I think I have found a connection to the *special* people on the island. They all died before or at birth (not having any mortal sins).

It is more probable that not:

Locke's mom died in auto accident; Locke died at the scene or as a premature birth at the hospital.

Ben's mom died in childbirth on the roadside; premature Ben died shortly thereafter.

Rousseau died during shipwreck or when all of her crew got sick on the island prior to Alex's birth.

So when Ben says that he was born on this island; he means that he was born on the island (afterlife) plane of existence; reincarnated to live his pre-determined life span.

The rule Widmore broke could have been No One Shall Kill a Special Child. Alex would have been a special child just like Ben.

#310. Posted by: welh at May 13, 2008 1:08 PM

Wouldn't Goodspeed's nosebleed indicate he wasn't physically time travelling, but more like Desmond and the dude that died in The Constant.

Floating island, perhaps some Life of Pi to the island's story.

#311. Posted by: CC Boston at May 13, 2008 1:11 PM

@ Scooby Dude: THAT was awesome! Thanks for the thorough summary. You rock!

#312. Posted by: GatorGal at May 13, 2008 1:12 PM

Kristen (from E!) recently interviewed Damon and Carlton (this was after "Cabin Fever"). Here are the key takeaways. Not really too spoilery, but am flagging it just in case.

************SEMI SPOILERISH **********

per Damon and Carlton:

CLAIRE: "I think we want the fans to ask, "What's happened to Claire?" I don't think it's "Is she dead?" I think it's like, "Where is she?" and, "What's going on with her?" I think the more operative question is "What IS dead?" That's a good question to ask, and one you will certainly be asking over the long hiatus."

TIME TRAVEL: "Time travel is definitely part of this series."

RICHARD ALPERT: He will "be coming more prominent in the future of the show."

MORE LOST?: Yes, they are adding two additional episides (one in fifth/09 season; one in final/10 season)for a total of 34 episodes to go (excluding what we have yet to see this month). This makes up for the 2 episodes dropped this year post-strike. So, 17 eps. in 2009; 17 eps in 2010 for a total of 34 remaining after 5/29/08.

JATERS vs SKATERS: "We feel like Kate's character is bound to explore relationships with both those guys (Jack and Sawyer) and that both those guys are going to be responsive to her various advances. We know who she ends up with ultimately, but we think the trail leading there is obviously going to include a little bit of ping-ponging."

THE NUMBERS: "...but if you're watching the show for a detailed explanation of what the numbers mean—and I'm not saying you won't see more of them—then you will be disappointed by the end of season six." They explain that some of the mysteries will be left as such and some will be explained. hmmm.

PENNY & DES: There is "lots more to tell" with this story and "hopefully, you'll (i.e. us) will have a better sense of that over the summer."

NEXT SEASON: "...we are not shifting out of question-answering mode. You'll still get some new, interesting questions along the way in season five that will pay off in season six, but there are a lot of engaging mysteries that we will be addressing right out of the gate."

SEASON FOUR FINALE: The "scope of the finale is LARGE" and they realize now that they could not have done it without the extra hour.

You can read the full interview at E online under the "Watch with Kristen" tab.

#313. Posted by: GatorGal at May 13, 2008 1:42 PM

DocH........If Locke had chosen the glove you would have heard Vin Scully say.......Little roller up along first...it gets through Locke....here comes Knight and the Mets win it.

#314. Posted by: lostsox at May 13, 2008 2:44 PM

one of my most favouritest episodes yet! i just have one little thing to say...

the black and white stones (season 1... anyone remember?)
they were to represent good and evil

so along those lines i present...

-ben and widmore

-john locke and jack shephard??

-aaron and walt?!?

i love this show!!!

#315. Posted by: DriveShaft at May 13, 2008 3:09 PM

I watched “Cabin Fever” again and I just wanted to mention a few more things…

1. Locke’s mom was hit by a car, similar to Juliet’s ex husband. Was someone trying to kill Locke before he was born?
2. Horace was a mathematician (maybe he’s the one who figured out the special numbers) AND he built the cabin as a “little getaway for me and the misses”. Also, Locke found the blueprints and map for the cabin in Horace’s pocket. Why did Horace need a map to go to a cabin that HE built. Doesn’t he remember where he built it?
3. It’s raining hard when RA appears at young Locke’s house but he walks in dry.
4. Capt. Gault didn’t know what the mission was really about, then why did Michael give Sayid/Desmond a note saying, “Don’t trust the captain”?
5. Sayid says, “The only way to save OUR lives is to get our people off the island.” How does that make sense?
6. VACC , this one is for you: Locke was at the Delerue Center for Rehabilitation. George Delarue won the Genie Award in 1986 (Sword of Gideon)
7. When the Helicopter flew over the castaways, the package that was dropped came out of the right (passenger) side of the heli. Right? But doesn’t the pilot sit on the left? So who threw it?

#316. Posted by: Skipper at May 13, 2008 3:36 PM

→ 316. Posted by: Skipper
When the Helicopter flew over the castaways, the package that was dropped came out of the right (passenger) side of the heli. Right? But doesn’t the pilot sit on the left? So who threw it?
- - - -
= For the most part (U.S.) =
Fixed-wing likes to put the Acft Commander (PIC) in the left-seat. Rotary wing AC/PIC in the right seat... US Navy though likes the helo commander in the left seat. So... Frank was and has always been sitting right front (remember Left seat Des on the trip to the ship) and the care package drop did come from correct side. My only problem is that bag he dropped was TOO BIG to fit thru the vent window on his door, so he would have had his pop-out (escape) window removed, making Keamy suspect for sure.

#317. Posted by: DocH at May 13, 2008 4:19 PM

@ meg - 306
Well you can do whatever you want to your half of Ben... But if you don't mind -- Since you're going to turn him into a "Beneamy", can I do that Rabbit cloning thing to your half first so I can make him whole again?!

I will never change Ben... EVER! =]

@ Skipper - 316
When Frank got in the helicopter (that doesn't look right, whatever, you know what I mean)... he was definitely sitting on the right side.

Even when he was flying Sayid and Desmond in "The Constant", he was sitting on the right side.

He was always sitting on the right side.

But I feel like the bag came out of the left side (passenger side).

But Frank was definitely sitting on the right side.

Maybe you meant left but you said right.

Good points though.

#318. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 13, 2008 4:20 PM

I think Jack had a medical issue because he tried to kill Locke. Jack was unsuccessful because Locke can't be killed as he has an umbrella insurance policy with the island.

#319. Posted by: Rich at May 13, 2008 4:23 PM

>7. When the Helicopter flew over the castaways, the package that was dropped came out of the right (passenger) side of the heli. Right? But doesn’t the pilot sit on the left? So who threw it?

Unlike fixed wing aircraft, it is traditional for pilots, or pilots-in-command if there are two, to sit on the right side of helicopters.

Pilots sit on the left in fixed wing aircradt the better to see the airport when manuvering in the landing pattern (which is left-turns at 95+ perscent of airports), and because, in single seat aircraft the throttle was on the left allowing the pilot to use his (usually) stronger right arm to control the stick with it's heaver forces.

Transport and two-pilot aircraft frequently reverse this with the throttle in the center between the two pilots but they also frequently have boosted controls so the convention remaind for the pilot to sit on the left.

Helicopters, especially two front seat helicopters, have a control called the collective in the floor between the two pilots. It controls the pitch of the blades, and also incorporates a throttle. So once more, it made sense for the pilot to sit on the right of the collective and use his left arm on it, thus keeping right arm for the stick.

All in all it's about two parts human factors to one part tradition that determnes the pilot's position in an aircraft.

Wanna' talk about front versus back in tandem arrangements?

#320. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 13, 2008 4:37 PM

Interesting Lost trivia:

The lastest Lost Video podcast at ABC.com reveals that the four-toed statue was originally going to be *six* toes.

But the props department found that the extra toe wasn't readily apparent, so they changed it to *four* toes instead.

#321. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 13, 2008 5:05 PM

...another sign of how hard people like us will try to attribute significant meaning to ANY aspect of LOST, no matter how trivial it may be.
→ 305. Posted by: vacc

That's exactly what makes this board so interesting, clever, thought-provoking and fun. (At least there's nothing as lame as those Lincoln/Kennedy coinky-dinks way back when.)

Recap of Oceanic pax
→ 295. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
Great job! Thanks for the memory-joggers.

#322. Posted by: lovelost at May 13, 2008 6:10 PM

Regarding who may or may not have been manipulated onto 815, and our always fun but absurd level of speculation about Lost, attributing meaning to every possible clue:

1. IF they were all manipulated onto the flight, the only feasible way that could be done in my view is a time-traveling Groundhog's Day, where the traveler is able to go backwards or forwards to a point in time and continue to live it and relive it in order to attain a desired result. It's how I interpreted Goodspeed's appearance and reappearance to Locke this week.

2. Has anyone posited the theory that the entire series could be a flashback, even the "flashforward" scenes? If the present time is more like 2015 or 2025 and everything we're seeing is a flashback, it would certainly explain a lot (how Ben knows so much, how they're able to travel back to multiple points in time in order to alter events, etc.). To me it somehow seems more "feasible" to travel back in time than to travel forward, like the movie Seven Monkees. The writers have certainly shown an inclination to bend our view of time so this seems possible (though I wouldn't bet the Dharma farm on it).

3. I have to admit that after spending too much time yesterday compiling a list of how people may have been manipulated onto the plane, I had a funny feeling that my high school geometry teacher was standing in front of me with a bloody nose accusing me of circular reasoning. The clues I identified pointed to the possibility that all or some of the passengers were manipulated onto the flight, but we still don't have enough information to know whether these were fake clues. Given that, we are only left with speculation, and, I might add, good writing, because for nearly every event that occurs on the show, there are two diametrically opposed explanations for them (apparitions vs. imagination, coincidence vs. fate, good vs. bad, karma vs. bad luck, etc.).

-----------------------------

If the world were good for nothing else, it is a fine subject for speculation.
- William Hazlitt

When speculation has done its worst, two and two still make four.
- Samuel Johnson

#323. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 13, 2008 6:15 PM

@Scooby-Dude/323
"Seven Monkees"

Oh crap! Michael Nesmith, Davy Jones, and Micky Dolenz have been duplicated ala bunny #15! Poor Peter Tork ... his duplicate got a bloody nose and died ... hence the name of the island pop group had to be changed from "Eight Monkees."

;)

PS: 12 Monkeys

#324. Posted by: ealgumby at May 13, 2008 10:46 PM

To continue with the thought I had last night about the island’s purpose for people:

I was speculating about how our Losties would protect the island from the bad guys. But it occurred to me that the crash of 815 also set off a chain of events leading to the arrival of Keamy and the bad guys. If we are to believe the island can somehow exert its will (most graphically depicted by the magical jamming of firearms in proximity to Michael’s head), then is it destiny or somehow part of the island’s desired course of events, that Widmore’s people find the island in the first place?

Circles… I’m traveling in circles, I tell ya.

But I love The Monkees. And I’m a Believer.

#325. Posted by: Clementine at May 13, 2008 11:00 PM

@Meg: re Prison Break

I'm sure your interest in this fine show has nothing to do with how FINE Michael and Link are? Right... ;)

So, which do you prefer?

#326. Posted by: Clementine at May 13, 2008 11:05 PM

@@@@@@@@@

Yeah... now that I think of it... if the Island can jam Michael's gun (and I still swear he looks a lot like Kevin Johnson), then why can't the Island jam Keamy and his pals' guns? If the Island gave Ben a tumor and Jack a quick appendix problem, why not give any hurtful-to-the-Island-people quick appendix problems or tumors?

Just thought I would do some naysaying before the next episode... ha!

Hey Ilovebenlinusxxx - am I still your idol? Cuz if so, I guess I should contribute more awe-inspiring posts in order to live up to my idol-ness, eh? Okay, I will... I promise!

Peace.

@@@@@@@@

#327. Posted by: Mr_Naysayer at May 14, 2008 3:03 AM

According to imdb Doug hutchinson played the part of JACOB.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0006535/

Can anyone shed some light on this What did he say his chracter name was?

#328. Posted by: hightower at May 14, 2008 8:27 AM

Oh and my misses reckons that the black dude has been in it before?????? (and that he is also jacob)
Anyone shed light on this troubling puppy?

#329. Posted by: Hightower at May 14, 2008 8:29 AM

I couldn't leave her if I tried.

#330. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 14, 2008 9:31 AM

@328 hightower boggles our minds with:

>According to imdb Doug hutchinson played the part of JACOB.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0006535/

>Can anyone shed some light on this What did he say his chracter name was?

He said he was Horace. And that's the name Locke found on the Dharma jumpsuit ("Horace - Mathmatician").

I wonder if that listing is officiallly released from ABC, or just the opinion of somebody at IMDB? And even if it's from ABC, does it have the blessing of Bad Robot Productions?

#331. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 14, 2008 9:39 AM

Horace Goodspeed:

According to IMDB, Doug Hutchison (Horace Goodspeed) is credited as Jacob in the last episode.

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0994350/

I don´t know exactly what this means. It can relate only to the dream it self, but even if so, it proves that Jacob can take various forms. Or was Jacob building the cabin for him self?

Other strange thing was the bleeding nose.

This is a photo of Horace dead. He was bleeding from the nose also. Can this mean that Horace was in 2 places at the same time, is this related to the Arrow station?

The first appearance of Horace was in "The Man Behind the Curtain", where the title seemed to be related to Ben. Maybe in fact it was related to Horace, maybe he´s "The Man Behind the Curtain".

Can his second the name, Goodspeed, be a hint for his time travel “abilities”?

Character names:

As for Abaddon I think he has a similar role to Richard. "Abaddon" is the name of the biblical Angel of the Abyss (Revelation 9:11), and Richard Alpert´s name was taken from a real life scientist and Hindu spiritualist that had the Indian "nick name" of Ram Dass, "Servant of God". They seem to relate in some way, and maybe their names are a clue to their roles.

Lost many times explores the contrast between Darkness and Light (Backgammon, the Black and White stones found with Adam and Eve on the cave, etc ad infinitum...). Can Abaddon and Richard be on opposite sides, and can Jacob be the axis?

Also about the origin of the character names... The biblical Aaron is the great-great-grandson of Jacob. Can this be a hint that Aaron is related (in any way) to Jacob? Does it implies that Jack, Claire and Christian are connected also so Jacob? Well, it seems that Christian is in a way.

Well but if the Biblical Aaron is the great-great-grandson there is a missing link between Christian and Jacob. Hum... But the biblical Jacob has a favorite son... bet every one is guessing the right name now. :D Yes, the name of Jacob´s favorite son was Benjamin, and Benjamin was the fruit of Jacob´s relation with his favorite wife, Rachel.

Well... Rachel Carlson is Juliet´s sister, and she´s the reason why Juliet is on the Island. Rachel was also "miraculously pregnant" and later in the show we see her son Julian.

I really don't know where does this take us, maybe nowhere. To think that Julian can be Ben (in some way) it´s nonsensical... but this is Lost we´r talking about. But all this is just the result of some research to see if I could foresee some future relation between characters. I don´t think things will be so direct, but it´s a cool exercise anyway.

Also a cool side note:

"Genesis 25:27 And the boys grew: and Esau (his twin brother) was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents."

"Dwelling in tents" is interpreted by many biblical commentators as a mark of his studiousness and reserved personality. Once again it seems to be a connection between the biblical Jacob and Lost´s Jacob, being that Lost´s Jacob dwells in cabins. :)
Has for Jacob´s twin, Esau, that was known has an Hunter, this somehow relates to Locke, that various times in the series was seen in hunting scenes.

Reincarnation(?):

Now, also about the connection between characters, this last episode had a scene that made my mind itchy.

In the forest scene, when Locke says to Hurley that he can return to the beach, which he does not, and then Ben tells Locke that he made Hurley think that staying was his idea.
Locke´s answer was something like “I´m not like you”, to which Ben replies in a somehow unsettling way something like “You are certainly not”.
This was really the scene that made me more thoughtful on this episode, and again after some research I think that there´s absolutely something here.

Lets see;
Both Ben and Locke have a mother named Emily, both were born premature, both were in contact with people from the island from their childhood and both ended up there because of those people and both had to kill their fathers.
I´m not saying that they are the same person (am I?) but something will come up from here. :/

The island has twisted ways. I don´t know if they are the same person/soul, but with all this reincarnation thing circling, and plus, this Budalike test given to Locke, it seems that with little doubt (considering this is Lost we are talking about) reincarnation is on the table. At least some kind of reincarnation I guess, maybe even a more scientific kind.
One more thought, about the Budalike reincarnation test (if it´s really that).
The fact that Richard was apparently so disturbed by Locke´s result on the given test, by its choice of 3 objects, and the fact that apparently it was not a wrong answer, since “the island” still insisted for Locke´s presence, can this mean that Locke shares the soul/existence of 3 persons connected to the island? I know this is a very long shot, and at the moment with the given clues there´s no way for this to make sense. But if that was really a reincarnation test, then the choice of 3 objects must mean one of 2 things;
1st, Locke gave a “wrong” answer, and in did he failed the test,
2nd, he gave the right one and he was, at some point of his existence, the 3 persons/souls.

On Hurley:

This is perhaps the wildest theory I have. It has not even a practical side and it´s a bit to vain but here it goes.

I was talking with my girlfriend about the show, and the fact that the origin of the nick name “Hurley” is still a mystery and she told me that she has the idea of seeing one episode where someone says (maybe has a joke) that Hurley came from the verb “To Hurl”.
I don´t know if this really happened in the show but I thought this could be a clue from the producers to understand a bit more about Hugo, so I went to a online Bible to search for the word “Hurl” and what I´ve found was interesting.

Here follow some quotes from that seach:
“The horse and its rider he has hurled into the sea." - This phrase, and some others similar, appear has a reference of something thrown at the sea.

“and he hurled it, saying to himself, "I'll pin David to the wall." But David eluded him twice. “
David is Hurley´s father, and his imaginary friend. Plus, I think it´s also the name of the original owner of Desmond´s boat. There are various verses refereeing to the name David, under the word Hurl.

“Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads “
This one made me remember the “everybody hates Hurley” episode. And the phrase it self refers to Judas. I know some people have the theory that Hurley is a traitor, can he be?

In “Revelation” there are a lot of references to the verb, being this the last one.

“When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.”

I know this is a very VERY wild shot, but I would like to know if anyone remembers someone referring to the name Hurley has a conjugation of the verb. I would like to have some evidence on this.

#332. Posted by: PHBZ at May 14, 2008 9:47 AM

@329 Hightower wondered:

>Oh and my misses reckons that the black dude has been in it before?????? (and that he is also jacob)
Anyone shed light on this troubling puppy?

Lance Riddick(actor's name). (lt. later Captain daniels on "The Wire") (aka Matthew Abbadon)

We've ssen him:

1) Recruit and brief Naomi for the island mission, making vague references to 'the company'

2) Visit Hurley in the sanitarium claiming to be from Oceanic

3) Push John Locke's wheelchair apparently as an orderly.

#333. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 14, 2008 9:52 AM

#326:clementine

michael and lincoln are definitely FINE and what better reason to tune in...but...i prefer lincoln, he is sexier and has a banging body to go along with all that sexiness. :)

peace&love to all

#334. Posted by: tiffani at May 14, 2008 9:53 AM

My thought is that, just as Locke is replacing Ben, Aaron will replace Locke. That's why Jack isn't supposed to raise him. Aaron is the next generation of "Chosen One" to protect the island.

Also, did anyone else find it odd that they said Widmore would "know" where Ben was going so Keamy could find him?

#335. Posted by: Paul at May 14, 2008 11:03 AM

Monkeying Around

Take a 1995 movie starring Brad Pitt ("Se7en," "12 Monkeys"), add a late 60s TV show/band and whatever Claire's been smoking and you get "Seven Monkees."

#336. Posted by: Scooby's Goof at May 14, 2008 11:34 AM

@Clementine - Definitely Scofield!! I go for the brains. Linc is definitely eye candy though (maybe another brains and body switch...hehehe)

Okay, I am about to have another fit!!!

#337. Posted by: meg at May 14, 2008 11:43 AM

Maybe I'd better change my username to:

I-wish-i-was-dr-tancredi!!

(mac is gonna kick me off of here soon, I can just feel it) BANNED!! :)

scarf to all, and to all a good night!

@iluvbenlinusxx - I am a high school teacher. How come none of my students watch Lost??? No one, not even 1!!

#338. Posted by: meg at May 14, 2008 12:10 PM

→ 324. ealgumby & 325. Clementine: Re the Monkees:

And now we know the real name of "Bensylvania," as the Lostaways obviously took the Last Plane to Clarksville. ; >

BTW, I saw the Monkees in concert in 1986...twice. Can I possibly wave my nerd flag any higher?

#339. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 14, 2008 12:31 PM

@339 Alaïs_Longthought reminisced:

>BTW, I saw the Monkees in concert in 1986...twice. Can I possibly wave my nerd flag any higher?

Only if you screamed and swooned when Davy stepped out.

#340. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 14, 2008 1:28 PM

I've got a theory with regard to the basis of LOST:

I believe Abaddon and Alpert are counter-parts. Abaddon is Dharma. and Alpert is Island.

When we first met The Dharma Initiative I thought it reeked of the military industrial complex Eisenhower warned us of.

I'm expecting that we will learn that Abaddon is also ageless.

Abaddon champions Locke. Do the people Abaddon works for want Ben out of the way so he will not influence Locke or so that Locke's authority on the island will be unopposed? Because here is my theory in a nutshell:

Does the fate of the world rest in Aaron's hands? Is this whole show about Grown-up-Aaron being The One who is confronted with the horrific nuclear nightmare of (hang on to your hats) . . . "Push the button? Don't push the button?"

Are Abaddon and Alpert vying to put in place a support group for a specific child they are seeking (Aaron) so they can control/influence him so he makes the decision their respective faction wants him to make? Does one faction want him in the position that permits him to make that decision and the other faction wants to keep him out of that position?

Abaddon wants Locke in place. Alpert was angry when Locke chose the knife; Is that because it indicates that Locke’s natural inclination leans in a direction opposed to what Alpert needs him for?

I think that Jacob knows who Aaron is. I don’t know if Alpert does. I do not think Abaddon knows yet. I wonder if the reason Claire had to be removed from the rest of the Lostees is so she could not get on that plane. Clearly, someone else would have given up their seat to Claire & Aaron. The reason Claire had to stay behind and Kate had to take Aaron is specifically to throw Abaddon and his faction off the scent . . . Because Abaddon’s faction would think that if the other side had The All Important Child in their custody, it would NEVER relinquish him and certainly not to the likes of Kate.

#341. Posted by: undaunted at May 14, 2008 1:44 PM

The Monkees: I remember Mickey Dolenz when he was "Circus Boy".

#342. Posted by: undaunted at May 14, 2008 1:47 PM

Hurley's driving a van with Charlie, who thinks they're on the way to a Driveshaft reunion. Suddenly lightning flashes in the sky and rain starts pouring down, then stops just as suddenly as it had started. A young man dressed like a pirate steps in front of the van.

"Hi, my name is Jones. Davy Jones."

Charlie and Hurley look at each other.

"You?"

"Do I know you?"

"You're the guy from that TV show."

"I think you must be mistaken, brotha. My adopted mother Shirley used to star on that show Partridge Family, but I've never been on TV."

"But that was after your show. And Shirley Jones isn't your mo--"

"Charlie," Hurley interjects. "I have something to tell you."

#343. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 14, 2008 2:03 PM

I'm not sure at all about Alpert and Yabbadabbadon, in terms of good or evil, allies or enemies, purposes and knowledge. I'M LOST!

So how did Jacob get to the island? A to the K, homeboy. Can I get a J?

A As captain or crew member of the Black Rock
B He is (one of) the last remaining members of the original 4-toed inhabitants of the Island
C He came to the Island at a time and by means we have no idea of so far
D He's an alien (what?)
E One of the future-self Lostees, like Desmond or Aaron
F He was brought to the Island, for the same reasons and in the same way Locke and probably Ben were.
G He's a former member of Widmore/Hanso/Paik/Whatever-related 'initiatives'
H He's a manifestation of the Smoke creature
or some other type of supernatural creature
I He's merely an illusion, conjured up by some other puppeteer
J He's literally the Island itself
K He's that weird guy in the subway, who always mumbles to himself, while bobbing back and forth (through time and space) and rubbing his hands

Sorry, I was gonna make a serious point, but I got high.

#344. Posted by: Robislost at May 14, 2008 3:40 PM

→ 340. Cecil Rose: Swooning over Davy Jones:

I did manage to control myself, although I had major butterflies in my stomach before the first show!

BTW, I'm enjoying how you're increasing everyone's "verb-al" vocabulary. ; )

→ 332. PHBZ: How Hurley got his nickname:

If I remember correctly, at some point during the first season Hurley makes a reference to being a warrior in his culture, or tribe, or something similar, during a discussion on his name. I don't recall anything about his nickname having anything to do w/the verb "hurl."

#345. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at May 14, 2008 4:48 PM

@167/IdMonster "I also read on LostPedia that the device strapped to Keamy's arm appears to be a modified Korg MA-30 metronome."

My Theory = The device strapped to Keamy's arm is an anti-smokey device - his own personal portable sonic fence.

#346. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2008 5:03 PM

(I don't believe this theory for a minute but it is fun to think about...)

Two background points:
1) I believe there to be more crew on the frieghter still - red shirt/socks so to speak. We just haven't seen them all because there's been no reason.

2) One theory is that the Lost story is looping and all of this has happened before.

Which leads me to wacky fun theory...

There is a commotion on the deck. The cabin door opens and out steps...

...Rousseau - she's on the freighter! This is the ship she originally came to the island on. It has looped through time. She notices that the crew all have the sickness and commences killing them - which isn't easy with the seven month old Alex fetus hump on her belly. Somewhere on the island a bug-eyed Ben smiles. "It's about time" he says.

#347. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2008 5:25 PM

@Dakota/279
"Could the drops have all been sent at the same time years ago timed to arrive in intervals?"

Excellent! Great explanation. I buy it. That's been bothering me.

#348. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2008 5:26 PM

→ 346.
My Theory = The device strapped to Keamy's arm is an anti-smokey device - his own personal portable sonic fence.
==========
Maybe he is just a loyal, but disgruntled, Lost viewer like us. If he doesn't get some serious answers in the next three episodes, he is going to take his own life, instead of toughing it out until May of 2010.
8(

#349. Posted by: ANON2 at May 14, 2008 5:34 PM

→ 295. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

What great organizational skills! And one forgets just how intricate this plot is when one is bogged down with the latest bit of confusion. Just what TPTB want..

#350. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2008 5:36 PM

I'm willing to bet that Locke wanted to grill Mr Goodspeed for more answers but stopped short of getting physical. Everyone knows there's no use in beating a dead Horace.

#351. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 14, 2008 5:42 PM

→ 299. Posted by: ealgumby

OMG! and WOW.

#352. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2008 5:47 PM

→ 310. Posted by:The rule Widmore broke could have been No One Shall Kill a Special Child. Alex would have been a special child just like Ben.

#353. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2008 6:01 PM

→ 342. Posted by: undaunted
I have never anyone but me who remembers Circus Boy!

I learned to play the guitar accompanying my Monkees Album.

#354. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2008 6:23 PM

This is the ship she originally came to the island on.

She was on a ship with scientists wasn't she? And they did all get sick. Maybe that's the virus. Quarantine. Stay in your hatch - don't leave the island.

#355. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2008 6:29 PM

@ Mr_Naysayer - 327
YES Mr_Naysayer... You are still my idol! So I would appreciate those "more awe-inspiring" posts! Thanks!

@ meg - 338
Seriously? Not one?? I can't believe that. I don't actually have a lot of friends that watch LOST. If they do, then they don't care about it as much as I do, they just watch it for the sake of watching it.

I have 3 teachers in my school that discuss LOST with me. They wanted to help me start a club, but now it's too late.

#356. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at May 14, 2008 6:36 PM

@ robislost and bcre8ve

OMG, 'Yabbadabbadon' and 'no use in beating a dead Horace' - wine just came out my nose, twice :-)

#357. Posted by: lostinvt at May 14, 2008 6:39 PM

While waiting for Thursday night, Could some of the more mathematically minded help me?

I really want the numbers to mean something. (Even thought someone here posted that the writers say they don't)So I have been studying the blast door map notations. It looks to me like the stations/hatches are built in a circular pattern and pretty much equidistant from each other. They are numbered with the Valenzeti numbers, I think. "The Swan 3 of 6 (4,8,15,16,23,42)"is a note on the map, so I read that as each station is also one of the 6 numbers ( The swan being 15) There are a few stations not on the map but it is indicated that there might be something there. There is a circle with a ? in the center.

If you draw lines connecting the outer circles and then connect the center circle to a point above it and connect the outer circles to that point, you get a 6 sided hedron type figure.

Faraday has, in his notebook,a similar picture of connected circles a few pages before his note to himself that Desmond is his constant.

Anyway, On the blast door map are many scribblings.

One is "x=4,y=8 and z=15".

I tried to Google a figure that had six sides and used x,y,z and got lost (!)

BUT I found a page on Cartesian coordinates and spherical coordinates. The sphere page has a formula (Used for finding latitude and longitude) and if you use the first part of the formula,(I don't understand the rest of the formula.)

r=\sqrt{x^2 + y^2 + z^2}

and put 4,8,15 in you get the \sqrt 305.
and that is 17.4642492 which doesn't mean anything to me.

BUT Isn't 305 the heading they are following on and off the island? Does this mean something? ? Could it be connected to the sextahedron figure? Is it pointed at the Big Dipper?

This is the page I got the info from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_coordinates

#358. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2008 6:41 PM

I just posted this on the theory page but it belongs over here.
--------------------------------
I found this while looking at the references above on the Book of Laws.

I Googled The Book of Laws and there is a link to The Great Book of Laws.

This is an OZ reference. It seems a Baum book titled Sky Island (Of all things!) was written about a journey in which a

"mixup in names causes the Magic Umbrella to carry them far above the clouds to an entirely different kind of island, an island in the sky. There they run afoul of the Boolooroo, the cruel and arrogant ruler of the Blue Country."

Magic Umbrella=Magic Box?

#359. Posted by: berkyo at May 14, 2008 7:57 PM

OK, admit I didn't get through all the posts, so sorry if this is a rehash of someone else's much more coherent theory, but what if the Island moving means the PEOPLE moving. ie. The Island is in fact not a physical place, but is made up by the life energy/experience/consciousness of the people (the O6).
This would make sense re: the producers 'if it IS an Island' comments.
Any thoughts... including 'I already thought of THAT!' are welcome.

#360. Posted by: LowellG at May 14, 2008 8:51 PM

@berkyo/358
"I really want the numbers to mean something. (Even thought someone here posted that the writers say they don't)So I have been studying the blast door map notations. ...

Faraday has, in his notebook, a similar picture of connected circles a few pages before his note to himself that Desmond is his constant. ...

Anyway, On the blast door map are many scribblings.

One is 'x=4,y=8 and z=15'."

Here are pics of the blast doors from Lostpedia (raw pic from the epi & pic w/ most of the scribbling clarified):

tinyurl.com/4gsstv

Here are the pages from Dan's notebook:

tinyurl.com/5ycvvo

I see the superficial correlation, that they both have connected circles ... other than that, with different numbers of circles and different pattern, I don't see much to tie them together.

I also do not see x=4, etc. on the blast door ... I see the numbers listed, but no variable assignment. There several equations on the map, most notably a magnetostatic integral at the upper right, but nothing like you suggest.

However, I DO think your mention of Cartesian coordinates is (somewhat) related to something in Dan's notebook ... Check out this wiki link to "Hypotheses of consciousness and spacetime":

tinyurl.com/b8zmr

You might find the spacetime separation equation familiar. This equation also bears marked similarity to the eqs in Dan's notebook opposite his "constant" entry, as well as his graph referencing travel through "real/imaginary space" and "[imaginary]/real time," especially if you pursue the "dynamical equation" link on the ref'd wiki page (which I think may have bearing on the numbers, IMO now tied to a binomial-coefficient-related series). Okay, getting mathy, time to stop ...

You might also want to check the related wiki page on "Electromagnetic theories of consciousness":

tinyurl.com/25685k

I now believe the writers have combined these two theories to explain "consciousness time travel"

In short (based on the notations in Dan's notebook), the writers are going with a derivation of Elizabeth Rauscher's 8-D version of Minkowski space-time ("real" space-time [Euclidean/Cartesian length, width, height, & time] axes, as well as their "mathematically imaginary" correspondent axes [which have "physical" significance in terms of the dynamics of consciousness]).

By this theory, a person's consciousness is able to grasp movement through time (and hence, causality, and moral issues resulting from one's choice of actions ... free will) at a single point in "real" space-time, only because of "simultaneous" existence of consciousness along an unperceivable path through "imaginary space-time" which gives the mind the ability to observe/evaluate cause/effect in the "real" world. If that makes any sense. Second, by adding the EM-consciousness theory, this "perception" of reality/causality could be effected by large external EM fields.

Theoretically, this would allow one to "travel through time consciously" by moving along the "imaginary axes" while "physically" residing in "real" space-time. Hence, Daniel's ability to send Eloise "through time" in his lab, without the need for a rotating black hole (required for "true" physical time travel via frame-dragging effects) ... he merely sent her consciousness into the future by manipulating her brain's EM field (given the correct amplitude/frequency numbers provided by Des).

I suggest Daniel's interest in the island lies with its ability to provide "actual" time travel, due to a nearby, rotating black hole (and contrary to popular belief, this IS theoretically possible ... not all black holes swallow galaxies ... it is a function of localized mass-density, not overall mass ... a "small" black hole could be orbiting the earth at near sea-level, yet "invisible" to common remote-sensing methods [due to trapping its EM signature]). By this theory, the "course to the island" is all-important, and more importantly, the island doesn't "have" to exist in "current time" ... it could be Tahiti ten thousand years ago for all we know (or Atlantis ... or Eden) ... the importance of "the correct course" is to come and go within the current "outside world" space-time-frame.

Dan came to realize almost immediately upon landing on the island that the "time-offset" between the outside world and on-island time was drifting (perhaps by 4,8,15,... multiples?) due to his rocket experiment, and confirmed by his comment regarding dead doc ("When? 'When' is kind of a relative term"). "Island Time" seems to keep creeping into "the future" compared to those off-island, and in fact, exponentially.

This leads me to a "slight" variation of my "the-O6-are-going-to-travel-into-the-future-by-a-few-months-when-they-leave" theory ... the time-offset will have drifted to such an extent (perhaps also aided by a Locke-induced purple-sky event to "move the island" in Rauscher-time, but not required), that when they "appear" off-island, it will be very close to September 1st, 2005.

No one believes me, but I'm sticking to it until proven wrong.

PS: Notice of disclosure ... NO drugs were involved with the posting of these comments ... now, I may be CRAZY, but lucidly so!

#361. Posted by: ealgumby at May 14, 2008 9:03 PM

This is an OZ reference
→ 359. Posted by: berkyo

No one is happier than I to see Wizard of Oz references. It's my favorite all-time movie. Ever. So, to recap a few LOST/OZ allusions:

Henry Gale
Hot air balloon
A character named Zeke
Man behind the curtain
Charlie and his poppy seeds
Man in red shoes crushed by building
Self-discovery by each major character
Oz is a common nickname for Australia
In the book, the WW of the W was missing an eye
And for scooby, el, clementine, alais, undaunted and berkyo...the Flying Monkees!

Of course, I could go on and on about which Oz character is which LOST character. But I won't.

#362. Posted by: lovelost at May 14, 2008 9:12 PM

@lovelost/362
"No one is happier than I to see Wizard of Oz references."

And if you turn down the volume on the Lost finale, and play "Dark Side Of The Moon" from commencement of the epi, it will prove to be eerily synchronous!

;)

PS: You might need to be in a "Claire-in-Jacob's-cabin" state to notice the mind-blowingness of this!

#363. Posted by: ealgumby at May 14, 2008 9:23 PM

re:361 ealgumby
One is 'x=4,y=8 and z=15'
- - - -
My enhanced .pdf, multi-layered version of the blast door.

says 'x4, y8, z15'.

just right of center and above the words 'subterranean conduit?'

x=4 is much different than x4, etc...

could be multiples 'Cerberus Vent times 4'

or could be 'Cerberus Vent #4'

#364. Posted by: DocH at May 14, 2008 9:29 PM

@berkyo/358
@DocH/364
"My enhanced .pdf, multi-layered version of the blast door.

says 'x4, y8, z15'.

just right of center and above the words 'subterranean conduit?'"

I stand corrected re refs to xyz and the first three numbers (this DOES seem to be a Cartesian coordinate system of some type, but relative to what?) ... nonetheless, I stick by the broad premise of my previous post ...

If wrong, then I'll just have to eat the hat, right?

#365. Posted by: ealgumby at May 14, 2008 9:51 PM

re: Ursa Major

Over the past two seasons, I've been googling the constellations trying to connect each one with one of the main characters. I've always been curious as to the cast of thousands in this show. All the hatches are represented and somewhere along the way I found a 'lost' constellation in the southern hemisphere.

And, since the birth dates have been displayed on most of the players, I've even tried to connect to the astrological signs.

In the first season, there are many scenes with our favorites sitting on the beach staring at the stars. Then Carl mentions a constellation when he's on the run with Kate and Sawyer. Ben has a poster in his bedroom of the star system. Claire offers to do Kate's chart. There is surely no lack of hints that the stars play a role somehow.

Has anyone else looked into this?

The OA airplane was given to Tom on his first plane trip as a kid.

Kate is the only one without a back story explaining her presence in Australia. I've been waiting for that one since the first season. I also find it hard to believe it was just left out. Where is the husband she married while in Florida?

I would also like to see Michael fix the engines and Desmond take over Widmore's ship.

What is the missing link connecting Michael, Locke, Ben and Widmore that will not allow any to be killed unless the island desires it? Who else could be on this list?

Do you think Michael's hit and run was truly an accident? Was his ex-wife Susan murdered by Alpert(the rare blood disease)?

#366. Posted by: pebspostal at May 14, 2008 9:54 PM

@pebspostal/366

I did put a winky at the end of my Ursa Major post, but am now curious if the stars shown in Lost might actually be a clue ...

Depending upon how diligent the production team has been, one could place the exact time and place of the island given enough "star views" and established view times ... it's done by navigation systems on satellites all the time (trust me on this ... part of my "real" job).

Not going to happen overnight, but will have to go over past episodes, look for star views, and see if it is even possible to evaluate if this is the case ... my guess is that this is beyond the scope of the production staff to even think about, and star views will show the island to be Hawaii over the last few years. You never know though ...

#367. Posted by: ealgumby at May 14, 2008 10:07 PM

"Everyone knows there's no use in beating a dead Horace."

Hold your Horaces, there, bcre8ve! I know it never pays to look a gift Horace in the mouth, but if there are clues to be had coming straight from the Horace's mouth, it might be useful to beat said dead Horace to get to the source, unless, of course, it's a Charley Horace and you're going hoarse from the force of singing the chorus of a really bad rock song you just can't endorse. I only meant to reinforce your tour de force, but somehow got Lost in the course amidst idioms of horse, and find no way to divorce from the crime of this less than sublime rhyme, as I close my thesaurus and return to dead Horace, lost in the forest and time.

Mai thung ith awl thied up in knoths now. Thanths a loths, b-kwe-ay-ev.

:-)

#368. Posted by: Clementine at May 14, 2008 11:17 PM

This has been one of the funniest week's in recent memory! And a Horace is a Horace, of course, of course.

Check out Lost in Space, some interesting parallels. Also of note, the producer Irwin Allen's first TV series was Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and third show after Lost in Space was The Time Tunnel.

#369. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 14, 2008 11:51 PM

@Meg: Help yourself to Scofield's brains. Tiffani and I are content to be shallow in the brawny arms of Linc. I would also be happy if Kellerman returned.

re The Monkees
If an upcoming episode starts with a phonograph arm dropping to the opening bars of "Pleasant Valley Sunday," we'll know Darlton dropped by again ;)

re Hugo's nickname
I think it's a combo of huge and curly (or burly). That's just a guess :)

re Wizard of Oz theme
Kate=Dorothy
Hurley=Cowardly Lion
Jack=Tin Man
Sawyer=Scarecrow
Ben=Wizard
(not taking credit for that, it's been posted on many forums)

@ealgumby: "If wrong, then I'll just have to eat the hat, right?" Oh, for Pete's sake, the choco-hat is not punishment! I really need someone to eat Claire's godawful wig! It gets more hideous every week. Please, oh please? And if she is dead, she's obviously in extreme-makeover hell, if she still has to wear that thing. Enough said ;)

#370. Posted by: Clementine at May 14, 2008 11:54 PM

All I have to say is you all are the funniest, smartest people EVAH! With all your theories and math and astronomy and Monkee/Horace/Yabbadabba jokes.

Sometimes I think I must be too dumb to even be reading this blog. :)

#371. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 14, 2008 11:55 PM

Oh, and 2 more things:

Hubby swears the girl who plays Claire (too tired to think of her name right now) is pregnant. It does look like she might be gaining a little weight.

About Hurly's nickname: Way back when someone asked him about his nickname...I thought he said something along the lines "You don't want to know". So I always thought it had something to do with some situation with him vomiting at a bad time or a lot....hurling. *shrugging* I may be totally off-base with that. It's possible I just made that up in my head after a day of dealing with vomiting kids.

#372. Posted by: notsoeasy at May 15, 2008 12:00 AM

Time Travel Theories:

Some of this may have been discussed before, but for anyone interested in time travel theories, check out the following from wiki (summarized here):

1. The Novikov Self-Consistency Principle: If an event exists and that would give rise to a paradox, or to any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero.
(Fair enough.)

2. Time Loop Logic (an application of the Novikov principle): Time loop logic is a system of computation that requires the computer to be able to send data backwards through time, and relies upon the Novikov self-consistency principle to force the result of a computation sent backwards through time to be correct.

(In Lost context, could explain the warning about using the computers only to punch the numbers and the time discrepancy re: the sat phone message and the dead doctor.)

3. Grandfather Paradox: Suppose a man traveled back in time and killed his biological grandfather before the latter met the traveller's grandmother. As a result, one of the traveller's parents (and by extension, the traveller himself) would never have been conceived. This would imply that he could not have travelled back in time after all, which in turn implies the grandfather would still be alive, and the traveller would have been conceived, allowing him to travel back in time and kill his grandfather. Thus each possibility seems to imply its own negation, a type of logical paradox. An equivalent paradox is known (in philosophy) as autoinfanticide — that is, going back in time and killing oneself as a baby.

(In Lost context, would explain why Michael can't be killed -- that the Michael we're seeing on the boat is the Michael of the past. If that's the case, the boat is behind island time. In addition, if the boat is behind island time and the sat phone message can be sent into the past, the good doctor's death did in fact precede his washing up ashore.)

4. Although the grandfather paradox has been used to argue that backwards time travel must be impossible, a number of possible ways of avoiding the paradox have been proposed, such as the idea that the timeline is fixed and unchangeable, or the idea that the time traveler will end up in a parallel timeline, while the timeline in which the traveler was born continues to exist.

#373. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 15, 2008 12:13 AM

361. Posted by: ealgumby

Thanks.

You are right. It does not say x=4. I guess I wanted it to say that. It says x4,y8,z15. It is next to the C4? station.

But it does give you 305.

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Dharma_stations.jpg

Thanks for the picture from Faraday's notebook too. I could not get my old VCR to stop in the right place. I DO see that it's different - but that's because Faraday wasn't drawing the correct figure ;). Maybe Dharma figured it out.

I really wish I could follow all the math but I am lost.I can't make head nor tail out of the links you posted but I think I understand your explanation.

Q. If only your consciousness moves in time, are you conscious only in your own body? or can you be in another body? Can you only go back in time as far as you have been alive? And can you not go forward in time because you don't have any space to put your consciousness into?

I read a theory somewhere else, like yours but with 2 doors. One in the present always fixed and one that is moving with the islands time. You can go back and forth through these doors. Can't remember where I read it though.

#374. Posted by: berkyo at May 15, 2008 8:36 AM

@368/Clementine

#375. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 15, 2008 9:03 AM

@ ealgumby & Clementine.

I know an old lady that swallowed a Horace.

"She died off course"

and that's how they move the island.

#376. Posted by: SamFin at May 15, 2008 9:57 AM

Been busy, but here's a couple late thoughts:

@ bcre8ve/#347: Fun theory. For a brief moment I was holding onto the fact that Regina would pop up outta the sand in the Losties camp by the kitchen because she figured out that the 'portal' to the island is underwater. She'd proceed to say, 'Krikies!...do you people know Paulikki is down there?!?!'

-Everyone is saying that Claire looks different when she is in Jacob's cabin. I agree, but to me it just looks like she got laid. TENSION RELEASE!!!

-from rewatch of Ji Yeon: When Cap. Gault tells Sayid & Des that he's getting his orders from Charles Widmore, Des says 'You mean this is Charles Widmore's boat?'...Cap. Gault replies with 'Oh yeah, you know him.'....interesting.

Looking forward to tonight. Later.

#377. Posted by: Red...Neck...Man at May 15, 2008 10:07 AM

With all the discussion about life and death and religious connections, I have a new theory about the show.

My Nexus-Buffer Theory:

The premise of Lost is a modern adaptation of Paradise Lost (with elements of Dante’s Inferno).

In Milton’s world view, the universe was represented just like the mobile above Aaron’s crib. The universe of planets, sun and stars was encapsulated by waters which fed the Earth and kept the raging forces of Chaos at bay. Inside the universe are various levels of life, the center being the mortal existence of Earth. Outside the Universe sphere are the separate spheres of Heaven and Hell. In Dante’s work, after the rebellion in heaven, Satan and his devils were cast into Hell in the midst of Chaos. God then created a new universe which housed a new creature, Man, on Earth. Satan built a bridge to Earth through Chaos and brought evil to mankind, which lead to the banishment of man from Eden to the mortality of Earth.

In various religions, man has both a body and soul. Upon death on earth, one’s soul travels to another plane of existence. Some religions base that upon the sins of the past; others various stages of enlightenment and reincarnation; hell (punishment), purgatory (penance), limbo (pagan paradise) or heaven (resurrection, eternal paradise). In the afterlife, souls have new bodies (vessels). Various stages of the afterlife may be present in the ether of the afterworld, as the soul is cleansed of its mortal sins toward a path of enlightenment on final judgment. The mind would control afterlife matter. There is still free will (choice) even in a predetermined path of punishment, penance or salvation.

What was left in Milton and Dante’s works was the revenge of Satan against God. There is an inference that Satan at some time would rise up to fight another battle for heaven. As Satan had found a path to travel in his spiritual form to Earth, it would probably be much harder to breach the gates of heaven. Heaven would have a Ft Knox level of security.

Thus, we get to the island. The island is a way station, a nexus point between the gates of heaven and the afterlife universe. The Hatch and the Numbers were the mechanism to maintain an electromagnetic barrier between the nexus bridge and the gates of heaven so Satan’s minions could not invade. When the numbers were not imputed to vent the EM, an alarm would sound, an internal barrier would drop and symbols would appear. I translated those Egyptian symbols to say “He escapes place of death.” Once the EM force field was down, the nexus point (island) was exposed - - and other souls (devils) could arrive through either Chaos or through a gate from Earth to take control of this strategic place.

The passengers on 815 were already in their afterlives. In the flashbacks, there are clues that these characters could have died: examples -- Hurley: deck collapse; Kate: car accidents; Sayid: Iraq war casualty; Rose: terminal cancer; Rousseau: shipwreck; Desmond: lost at sea in small boat. How everyone got on the plane is like the comment from Defending Your Life: how one imagines their demise is how they are transported to the next level of existence. In that existence, you live another life, in another body, and subject to similar rules (pain, pleasure, thoughts, actions, free will, ect.) until you evolve into a more spiritual being. You live and die (or move on to the next level of the afterlife) based upon the consequences of your actions, repentive behavior, or change in moral character. A reoccurring show theme is redemption and rebirth.

At least characters are special. They were either stillborn, or died shortly after birth. This would mean that they had no mortal sins. Ben (premature and born on roadside), Locke (mother hit by car, premature), and Alex (mother shipwrecked or died of the sickness). When Ben stated that he was born on the island, it was a reference that he was actually arrived in the afterlife as a rarity, a human soul without mortal sin. This would imply that he would have angelic powers. But those powers could be corrupted by other, fallen angels or Satan’s minions. When Widmore’s men killed Alex, the rule that was broken that special children should not be killed.

It would appear that the Dharma (a religious connotation for moral teachings) controlled the island, and in a cult like way maintained the nexus-buffer from being compromised. However, since this was not heaven where god’s servants reside, the station had to be manned by worthy souls doing their penance. Like Dante’s Inferno, punishment was an ironic twist of fate. For example, Desmond who feared commitment, had to be committed to entering numbers in a machine every 108 minutes for years or his world would end. In one view, in hell a person has knowledge of the past and the future, but not of the present. The reason was that on final judgment, if the unworthy soul had no presence it would not longer exist.

Alpert and Abbadon could both be agents of Satan who have been looking for special children who would be the key to unlocking the gate of heaven.
Only those without sin can arrive at the gate to be judged. If one could find such a key, their individual standing in Hell would increase so then he could dethrone Satan and claim heaven for himself.

When Ben arrived on the island, he was recruited by the (false) image of his mother to Alpert, the leader of the Hostiles. Because free will still exists in this realm, the Hostiles waited until Ben was old enough and cunning enough to plan and execute the Purge. Ben may have known a lot about the Dharma stations and work, but he probably did not realize the importance of the Hatch as the observation station was abandoned, and he did not know about Desmond’s arrival or role in the Hatch. After the Purge, Ben was haunted by Jacob, a spirit who convinced Ben that he made a terrible error. Ben may then have made a deal with the Hostiles: the reward of every lasting paradise if they defended the island (i.e. change sides prior to the final battle).

Maybe the sky turning purple and a plane crashing down was a sign to Ben that the invasion had commenced; why he thought the passengers of 815 were soldiers (the bad guys) trying to take the island from his control. The 815ers may have thought that they survived a plane crash on Earth and had no comprehension of their true existence. Only after time on the island, the unfolding mysteries and knowledge of their true plight, could a passenger realize and question what was happening.

When Alex was killed, Ben went to the underworld to open a gate. He told everyone to stay back as Smokey was unleashed on Keamy’s men. Dante described one of the sentry’s at the Gates of Hell as a dark, shapeless mass of evil, called Death. Ben did not control Death (Smokey), he merely released him. That’s why he told Locke’s crew to hold their position then run for the jungle. Smokey would destroy anyone it wanted to harm. This passage or connection to the underground could also explain how spirits called the Hostiles built a bridge to the island from Hell as a precursor for their invasion. However, that gate must have a sonic force field that needs to be disabled for anyone on the island to go to/from another plane of existence (Earth, afterlife, purgatory, hell).

People on the island do die, in the sense that their spirit or soul is extinguished by the actions of others. It may or may not be reincarnated as a ghost, a whisper or strong emotional image from that person’s past life. Or the souls may be transmuted into another level of the afterlife, never to return.

And hence, that is Jack’s ultimate problem. He cannot go back to that level of the afterlife because he was rewarded for his actions of leadership, courage, ect.,so, as Hurley said, he was now in heaven.

#378. Posted by: welh at May 15, 2008 12:05 PM

I love this blog...thanks for the enjoyment. Long time reader, first time poster...

About 20 years ago (or more) there was a game show on MTV called Remote Control that had Colin Quinn as the sidekick to the host, and the beautiful Kari Wuhrer (later of Sliders fame). It was a Jeopardy! type of trivia show. Anyhow, one of the only things I remember about it was that it had a category of old tv theme show parodies. The one on Mr. Ed stuck with me, and likely will forever.

There's no such thing as a talking horse
Unless one talks to a horse's corpse.
And then, of course, the horse's corpse
is the famous Mr. Ed.

So we have Locke talking to Horace's corpse

#379. Posted by: gumbo at May 15, 2008 12:08 PM

@red..neck...man - Maybe Claire spent some time with Ben's brain in Keamy's body??? :)

Actually, joking aside, I was wondering why she looked so plump in the face. I still haven't watched the last two episodes for the second viewing, and that's where I usually come upon all my deep ideas and theories...ahem....

I am looking forward to tonight's episode, but won't get to watch it until tomorrow.

#380. Posted by: meg at May 15, 2008 12:09 PM

@ bcre8ve, clementine, and scooby

One more from the Wizard of Oz:

The Horace of a different color.

#381. Posted by: lovelost at May 15, 2008 12:15 PM

@378/welh : That's an intriguing theory. I especially like the implication of Ben and Locke dying at birth.

You mentioned a "key to unlocking the gate of heaven." Could that be the failsafe key?

#382. Posted by: vacc at May 15, 2008 1:44 PM

Looking through some of the latest screen capture pics, and the box that Keamy's arm device came out of said - ACME Altitude Booster - and was sent from a mister “Wiley E. Coyote” of Grand Canyon, AZ. Apparently when the Island jumps the Dharma Shark tonight, he wants to stay dry.
[:^)
- - - -
song would go

"A Horace is a Horace,
of course, of course,
and no one can talk to dead Horace,
of course, unless of course,
is the famous Jacob man."

#383. Posted by: DocH at May 15, 2008 2:34 PM

383/DocH "...the box that Keamy's arm device came out of said - ACME Altitude Booster"

What he really needs is an "ATTITUDE Booster"

#384. Posted by: bcre8ve at May 15, 2008 2:53 PM

@welh 378
Very interesting theory. I always thought there was an aspect of redemption in the show -- i.e., good people live (Hurley), bad people who aren't redeemed die (Eko, Ana Lucia), bad people who are redeemed may live (Kate, Sawyer?). And your Oceanic 6th Sense idea is interesting (though if they really were dead they had a lot of seemingly live interactions with people off the island). My other question is, if Ben can release Death/Smokey, how does he recapture him afterwards?

#385. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at May 15, 2008 3:28 PM

@ 382/ vacc

The key is a human soul with no mortal sin, i.e. a child who died before or at birth.

@ 385 /Scooby-Dude

Maybe Smokey has to return to its realm, and the gate has a trap to resets once he leaves.

#386. Posted by: welh at May 15, 2008 4:01 PM

After 3 seasons trying to figure out the link between the numbers and electromagnetic forces, to its destruction and now suddenly people are showing up to the island with evil intent, I am looking for some plausible explanation.

#387. Posted by: welh at May 15, 2008 4:18 PM

scooby-dude,

It's Eko who makes all this "redemption"/Smokey as Judge thing so interesting. He is the obvious exception to what we think we are seeing because Eko WAS redeemed. Eko really did make a positive change in his life.

He became a priest. In the absence of someone to ordain him, he ordained himself through the Catholic ritual of tonsure.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“ A sacred rite instituted by the Church by which a baptized and confirmed Christian is received into the clerical order by the shearing of his hair and the investment with the surplice. The person thus tonsured becomes a partaker of the common privileges and obligations of the clerical state and is prepared for the reception of orders. The tonsure itself is not an ordination properly so called, nor a true order. It is rather a simple ascription of a person to the Divine service in such things as are common to all clerics.”

Eko went to “Henry” and confessed that he killed two people when he first arrived on the island. He apologized; he said he lost his way but was now on a righteous path again. Henry said, "Why are you telling me this?" Eko told him "Becuse I have to tell someone." Immediately after his confession to Henry, he took a knife and cut off his beard (that was the tonsure).

So if Eko isn't considered redeemed by the Island or by Smokey then what the heck do they consider redeemed?

#388. Posted by: undaunted at May 15, 2008 4:27 PM

@388 undaunted theologized:

>So if Eko isn't considered redeemed by the Island or by Smokey then what the heck do they consider redeemed?

But Eko said he wasn't sorry for anything he'd done because he'd only done what he'd had to do.

In Christian, at least Protestant Christian, theology, wiht which I'm nost familiar, the necessary conditions for forgivensss of sin are:

1) Acknowledge your sins to God.
2) Confess them publically and repent.
2) Accept the sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

Seems to me that Eko failed at step one. He didn't really believe he'd done anything wrong. Not killing the priest as a boy, not dealing drugs, not killing the other drug dealers.

"I only did what I had to do." is a classic cop-out for us poor sinners. Until we can get past that one, repentance is hard, maybe impossible to achieve.

Now maybe this is why Yemi/Smoke Monster came after Eko, and maybe not. Nothing constrains the "Lost" show to parallel Christian theology. But it's one possible explanation.

Stylistically, that final outburst of Eko's has always bothered me. I very much wanted him to be a man redeemed from a sinful life, and his character seemed headed in that direction right up to the final minutes, and his outburst seemed out of the character as I thought I'd come to know it. It's a flaw in what I've otherwise come to admire as a well-written story.

#389. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 15, 2008 5:21 PM

My long awaited [Well, maybe someone out there was awaiting it] review of "The Invention of Morel" is now posted in the Random Topics '08 area. Click my name to be taken there.

#390. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 15, 2008 5:58 PM

Cecil Rose countered:
But Eko said he wasn't sorry for anything he'd done because he'd only done what he'd had to do.
________

True enough, but he said that to UnYemy, not to God. He'd already made his confession to God. Confession, Repentence, Tonsure, Dedication of his life to God. Eko knows that God does not require him to make a confession and apology to every Tom, Dick and UnYemy that comes along demanding it of him.
___________________________

In Christian, at least Protestant Christian, theology, wiht which I'm nost familiar, the necessary conditions for forgivensss of sin are:

1) Acknowledge your sins to God.
2) Confess them publically and repent.
2) Accept the sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

Almost exactly the same except in Catholicism, one confesses to a priest who absolves you in the name of the Holy Trinity. Eko did everything he was supposed to do he just didn't it do it with UnYemy but then, he isn't required to do it with anyone but God.

#391. Posted by: undaunted at May 15, 2008 6:04 PM

@391 undaunted rejoindered...

>True enough, but he said that to UnYemy, not to God.

Yes, but what he was saying seemed to indicate that he repented nothing - that he wasn't sorry for anything he'd done.

His exact words were:

EKO: I ask for no forgiveness, Father. For I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive.

#392. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 15, 2008 6:15 PM

From the Land of Oz:

Tonight's episode is "There's No Place Like Home".

How timely!

#393. Posted by: lovelost at May 15, 2008 6:57 PM

Watched the episode again:

When Keamy and friends are helping the injured dude off the helicopter, his intestines are hanging out. Ew.

Grandma Locke has red hair like Swoosie Kurtz.

The ranch dressing crack was really below-the-belt.

When Alpert is laying out the objects used to test Locke, there’s a musical effect that sounds like the Smoke Monster.

Why a “protocol” for opening the protocol? Was it a safety measure to have Keamy and Gault open the safe together? In case one of them contracted the “sickness”?

Do we know how John got his scar?

******************************************

I went back to “The Brig” to look for Locke/Alpert scenes:

When Locke pulls the gag (scarfy!) from Anthony Cooper’s mouth, you can see that his nose is bleeding. This is supposedly right after he arrived via “magic box.”

Ben to Locke: “When people join us here on this island, they need to make a gesture… of free will… of commitment. That’s why you have to kill your father.”

I forgot that Cooper actually called Ben “Bug-Eye!” Ha!

When Ben has Cooper tied to the pillar and is taunting Locke to kill him, and Locke chickens out, Ben snatches the knife from Locke’s hand, turns to the crowd of Others, and says, “I’m sorry. He’s not who we thought he was.” Earlier Cindy had told Locke that the Others were excited because they were waiting for him to arrive. (But it was not the same knife from when Alpert visited Locke as a child.)

Watching Alpert introduce himself to Locke was surreal, as Alpert now looks younger than Locke.

Alpert to Locke: “Ben doesn’t want anyone to think you’re special.”

Locke: “What do you want from me?”

Alpert: “I want for you to find your purpose. And to do that, your father has to go, John.”

Alpert gives him the folder on Sawyer. (I skipped a few lines above. Go back to the transcript, if you want to read it all.)

The next day:

Locke wakes to find Ben and the Others packing up camp. Ben tells him he will have to stay behind. Cooper is his mess to clean up.

Locke: “Well, you can’t leave me. After everything, you can’t just…”

Ben: “Don’t tell me what I can’t do, John.” (Ben/Locke=mirror twins)

Locke: “But I thought…I was…special.”

Ben: “Well, everyone makes mistakes.”

On the way to the Brig, when Sawyer confronts Locke, he takes his knife from him. Right before Locke locks Sawyer in the Brig with Cooper, Sawyer stabs the knife into some wood (effectively returning the knife to Locke). Locke whittles away while Sawyer confronts Cooper and kills him. When Locke opens the door afterward, the knife is outlined prominently in his hand against the backdrop of Sawyer standing over Cooper’s dead body.

******************************************

Why does Alpert insist that Locke’s father has to go, in order for him to find his purpose? And he’s not saying that Locke has to kill him. Alpert basically told Locke to have Sawyer do it.

All the knife imagery was very interesting in light of the Lama test.

#394. Posted by: Clementine at May 15, 2008 9:52 PM

3 minutes and counting...

Mallomars :))))))

#395. Posted by: Clementine at May 15, 2008 9:58 PM

re: Hugo's Nickname "Hurley"

In Season 1, episode 10, he says the following:

My name isn't Hurley, it's Hugo Reyes. Hurley's just a nickname I have, alright? Why? I'm not telling. The point is we've got to find out who everyone is.

I think that's all we've been told.

#396. Posted by: "old" Christine at May 15, 2008 10:44 PM

I only made it BARELY down the list, but I've seen several people comment on Little Locke's game of choice with RA and comments alluding to John getting the wrong answer causing RA to become disgruntled and leave.

Perhaps John had the right answer (as we know his affinity for knives) and RA was disgruntled because he knew that John was indeed the special "Chosen One" and was not looking forward to reporting back that the chain of events had begun and that there was a cognitive recollection with younger John to his older counterpart.

Perhaps they're trying to break some kind of cycle in order to save the island or preserve their colony and John's recognition of the knife throws a wrench in the works?

#397. Posted by: Illusivemuse at May 15, 2008 11:12 PM

@394 Clementine queried:

>Why a “protocol” for opening the protocol?

The cirumstances and methods for invoking the second protocol were part of the first protocol. Basically something like "Try this. Try that. If none of that works, open the alternate instructions in the opresence of the other keyholder."

>Was it a safety measure to have Keamy and Gault open the safe together?

The military uses 'no lone zones' and dual keys whenever the consequences of a mistake are particularly bad. Especially in handling weapons of mass destruction.

>Do we know how John got his scar?

In the crash. It was present from day one.

#398. Posted by: Cecil Rose at May 16, 2008 1:13 AM

So, does anybody else think that Locke will wind up paralyzed again (permanently) sometime before the end of the series? I hope not, I hope he's redeemed. But that doesn't seem to be his pattern. The island does not appear to be entirely benign, warm and fuzzy (as Locke apparently believes it is, essentially... even though it killed Eko, etc). Maybe Locke was chosen to be the keeper of the island for the same reason he was chosen as a kidney donor by his dad and as an unknowing accessory to an undercover cop at the hippie commune... he's "chosen" because he's basically a sucker. When the island is done with him, he'll be even more washed up than Ben (actually it's not clear the island has rejected Ben at all... as see n in the future flashes... Ben still cares about the island and his vengeance, maybe the island still likes him back). If/when the island rejects or is "done with" Locke, and this takes the form of his paralysis returning, I don't think Locke can handle it... he sees the Island as the loving parent he never had. He'd kill himself like he did in the Dharma mummy pit. I think we'll at least be teased with the idea that the island is rejecting Locke completely (they hinted at this is S1 when lock had trouble walking for awhile, or after Ben shot him and he raised a gun to his head but Taller Ghost Walt stopped him)... or perhaps that will simply be Locke's "everlasting gobstopper" moment where he has to not hate the island for rejecting him, then the island will truly accept him and all is well again. OR perhaps at the end of the show somebody else will be chosen. Maybe at the end Hurley will become the big kahuna? The island seems to take a special interest in him. (Oh and when will we hear more about the "Hurley Bird"?)

#399. Posted by: catbarf at May 16, 2008 11:35 AM

Typo - Locke didn't kill himself in the Dharma mummy pit, obviously. He was just about to (seemingly resigned) when suddenly Taller Ghost Walt, the island's suicide prevention counselor, told him he had purpose... so he changed his mind (but what happens after that purpose is fulfilled?)

#400. Posted by: catbarf at May 16, 2008 12:00 PM

@Clementine/370
"@ealgumby: 'If wrong, then I'll just have to eat the hat, right?' Oh, for Pete's sake, the choco-hat is not punishment! I really need someone to eat Claire's godawful wig!"

Damn, guess I'm due for wig munching ... at the risk of crudeness, can I substitute Emilie de Ravin's merkin?

#401. Posted by: ealgumby at May 16, 2008 8:21 PM

I am surprised. 400 posts and not one mention of a 'portable holo-emitter' in reference to the device strapped to Keamy's arm. Where are the Star Trek fans?

#402. Posted by: JT at May 28, 2008 1:58 PM

I just stumbled upon your lovely site :)

I've been a diehard obssessed addicted fan just like others since day one.

Here's one: Locke's mom is Emily

same for Ben, his mom's name is Emily too.

As for Keamy , I always refer to him and his men as the freighter thugs

#403. Posted by: LOSTeph at July 20, 2008 11:04 PM

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