The Lost Blog

Key Points from "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"

Season 5, Episode 7
Episode Air Date: 02/25/09

Point 1
Locke

Ben

Widmore
Are you kidding me?

I had an intro paragraph all prepped with 10 minutes left in the show, but that work got blown to hell by the episode's stunning conclusion.

BEN KILLED LOCKE!?

With that kind of shocker, an intro is useless. Let's jump in.

The majority of this episode chronicles Locke's Sisyphean attempts to lure the Oceanic Six back to the island. It plays out as such:

  • Upon spinning the frozen donkey wheel -- and bidding adieu to Christian Shephard -- Locke is transported to the Tunisian desert, circa 2007. This is the same spot where Ben ended up in "The Shape of Things to Come." Charles Widmore knows this location is the "exit" to the island, so his cohorts appear (eventually) to scoop Locke up and tend to his wounds (remember, he broke his leg/foot/shin after falling down island's well).
  • Widmore visits Locke in the Tunisian hospital. It's an odd reunion: Widmore "remembers" meeting Locke back when he was a spry 17-year-old on the island, an event that occurred more than 50 years ago in Widmore's universe, but was only four days ago on Locke's timeline.
  • Widmore says he was the island's leader for more than 30 years, but Ben tricked him into leaving. He needs Locke to return because a war is about to break out and if Locke isn't there, "the wrong side is going to win." Locke neglects to ask the obvious: Who will fight this war? Why? And what does it have to do with Locke?
  • Widmore's revelation (if we can trust it) threw me for a loop because I can't figure out how the '50s-era Widmore segues into a 30-year leader. And how does Dharma factor into this? Wouldn't Widmore have been on the island during the Dharma days? Was Widmore exiled after Ben's Dharma purge? And how does Richard Alpert factor into all this?
  • Matthew Abbadon works for Widmore (thereby closing an open question), and he's assigned to help Locke visit each of the Oceanic Six. Abbadon and Locke have an icy relationship, but Locke admits to recognizing Abbadon from their previous run-in during Locke's rehabilitation. Unfortunately, Abbadon is gunned down by Ben before he and Locke can bond further (but with luck they'll still swap memories in Dr. Bishop's tank).
  • Locke needs to brush up on his sales skills (this would have been a perfect opportunity for that "Office-Lost" crossover episode). He visits Sayid in the Dominican Republic and fails to woo him back. Then he visits Walt (now post-puberty) in New York and fails to even invite him to return (the island apparently allows this, but I still don't understand why Walt is exempt). Then Locke travels through California and scares Hurley at the mental hospital, gets pitied and denied by Kate, and makes bearded Jack real mad. He never sees Sun, but he gets a mulligan on that since he promised Jin he'd stay away.
  • The Locke-Jack exchange brings Jack's guilt over Locke's "suicide" into focus. Jack rips into Locke: "Have you ever stopped to think that these delusions that you're special aren't real? That maybe there's nothing important about you at all. Maybe you're just a lonely old man that crashed on an island." After that tirade, I can see why Jack thinks he played a role in Locke's death (and knowing how Locke really died makes Ben's reaction to Jack's guilt even more evil).
  • And now we come to the whopper. After failing to entice any of the Oceanic Six back to the island, Locke prepares to kill himself. This seems to be motivated both by his own grief and by Richard Alpert's proclamation that Locke's death will catalyze the return of Jack, Kate and the others. Locke writes a one-sentence note to Jack (the "J.L." who signed that note is actually John Locke), and sets about tying a long extension chord around his neck. But just as he's about to do the deed, Ben busts through his hotel room door and pleads with Locke to remain among the living.

    And then something curious happens. Locke tells Ben about his promise to Jin, and knowledge of Jin's survival activates the overdeveloped manipulation node in Ben's brain. It's as though the rules have changed, and Ben sees a way to reclaim the island throne. Locke then tells Ben that Mrs. Hawking can help them return to the island. Again, the buggy brain behind Ben's buggy eyes activates ... and that's when he loops the extension chord around Locke's neck and chokes him to death! Ben then methodically arranges Locke's room (and body) to make it look like a suicide. He is truly a fru-et of the dev-ell.

  • Seeing as Ben spent most of season five's early episodes hauling Locke's body in a van owned by Canton-Rainier Carpet Cleaning ("The Go-To Service for all your Reincarnating Needs"), it's no surprise to see Locke return to the living (he magically "appears" amidst the Ajirans). But Ben's murderous ways certainly adds a new hook to their inevitable reunion.
  • One final note on the Ben-Locke dynamic: I'm assuming Ben's original post-murder plan was to make Mrs. Hawking tell him how to get back to the island, perhaps by himself. But the "rules" (those damn, damn rules) require all of the castaways to return, so Ben's reinstallation as island leader hinged on an Oceanic Six reunion.

    I think Ben's motivation switched during that conversation with Locke. Previously, his focus seemed to be on saving the island -- hence the importance of Locke's life; and perhaps Ben really was "protecting" the Oceanic Six. But Jin's miraculous survival and/or mention of Mrs. Hawking flipped Ben's megalomania switch, and suddenly Locke and the Oceanic Six became means toward his desired end. This seems to make sense, but I know I'm missing something here. Any ideas?

Point 2
Caesar

Ilana
It didn't take long to discover what happened to Ajira 316 and its other passengers. The plane crashed on the island, but it appears to be intact and there are a bunch of survivors. Did Smilin' Frank Lapidus orchestrate his own Miracle on the Hudson? Or, has the island softened it's stance on plane crashes?

Interestingly -- and not unexpectedly, given this show's history -- the Ajirans have some mysteries of their own. For instance:

  • Caesar has already installed himself as group leader. This is the same guy who was seated next to Hurley on Ajira 316, and he also offered condolences to Jack during last week's airport scene. Who is this guy? How did he zip through the ranks so quickly? Why did Ilana (the cop who accompanied Sayid on 316) allow Caesar to take control?
  • The Ajirans found three canoes on the beach. We learn that Frank Lapidus and an unidentified woman disappeared with one canoe and the passenger list, and they haven't been seen since. Related questions: Who is the woman (Sun?)? Was she wearing a scarf? How did the canoes originally get on the beach? Does Frank know where he's heading, or did the trauma of the plane crash spark a love connection with the mystery lady?
  • While we're on the topic of canoes ... so far we know there are three. The Ajirans have two. Frank has one. How many canoes did Sawyer, Juliet, Miles and the other time leapers discover in "The Little Prince"? Was it only one? If that's the case, I'm guessing they found Frank's camp (i.e. - the old Oceanic beach camp). And following that thread, could the Ajirans have been firing at Sawyer/Juliet et. al because they thought they were chasing Frank? Of course, it's impossible to know who was in the pursuing canoe because we're not even sure when that scene from "The Little Prince" takes place.
  • Jack, Kate and Hurley (and perhaps others) have achieved mythical status among the Ajirans. Some passengers -- including Caesar -- say people "disappeared" from the flight during the crash. Related questions: Who besides, Jack, Kate and Hurley disappeared? Where/when did these people go?
  • How long have the Ajirans been on the island? A day? A couple of days? They've had time to explore the nearby terrain, tend to the injured passengers, and Caesar has set up shop inside an abandoned Dharma office. I'm guessing they've been there at least two days ... but it could be longer.
  • Finally: Have we seen that Dharma office before? Is it connected to a station?
Point 3
Island A few closing questions and observations:
  • Best Line: "Boy's gotten big." -- Matthew Abbadon on Walt's growth spurt.
  • Where are Sayid and Sun? They weren't among the Ajirans and as far as we know they haven't reconnected with Jack, Kate and Hurley.
  • Four "Lost" moments have forced my jaw to uncontrollably drop: 1. Desmond in the hatch, 2. Michael killing Ana-Lucia and Libby, 3. The season three flash-forward finale, and 4. Ben killing Locke. Man oh man do I love it when my jaw drops.
  • Grown-Up-Non-Ghost-Walt tells Locke he's been dreaming about him. In the dream, Locke is on the island, wearing a suit, and "people are all around you, wanting to hurt you." I'm guessing the next few episodes won't be pleasant for John.
  • I'm really interested in the connection between Widmore, Mrs. Hawking and Ben. In "Jughead," Widmore tells Desmond where to find Mrs. Hawking, so he either has an ongoing connection to her or he's been keeping tabs on her whereabouts. Ben clearly knows Mrs. Hawking, but we don't how/why/when. Nor do we know how Ben managed to get Mrs. Hawking to fire up the TRS-80s in the Lamp Post and find the route back to the island. There's a whole lot we don't know about this Widmore-Hawking-Linus triangle ... and if you toss in Daniel Faraday you've got yourself a Rhombus of Mystery.
  • As you'd expect from a character named John Locke, the alias Jeremy Bentham carries a lot of weight in philosophy circles (and with Charles Widmore).

That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Next Episode:
"LaFleur" -- Sawyer goes undercover as a Dharma drone. Airs Wednesday, March 4, 2009 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

Review by Mac Slocum. All photos and episode descriptions © ABC Inc.

JBINDIL

#1. Posted by: MattS at February 26, 2009 12:15 AM

The time leapers (Juliet, Sawyer, Miles, etc.) found two canoes and took one. We assume the owners soon learned of the discovery and followed in the remaining canoe. How two canoes came to be at the (abandoned? run-down?) original beach camp is a mystery.

Here's my question - if the Island needs Locke to die, does the manner of his death make a difference? Why did Ben save Locke from committing suicide only to kill him? If dead is dead, I don't see why Ben didn't let the suicide scene unfold.

Unless, of course, all of Locke's revelations re: Jin, Eloise Hawkings, etc. did push poor buggy-eyed Ben 'round the bend, so to speak.

Excellent recap, as usual.

#2. Posted by: chesl8a0 at February 26, 2009 12:20 AM

Can we be certain that Ben killed Locke?

Why wouldn't he just let him jump?

Something is funny....

#3. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 12:20 AM

A very good episode. We finally have enough information to see through Ben's manipulations. We know Ben is getting Locke to do what he wants. Unfortunately for Locke, he doesn't know what we know (that for example Jack takes a trans-Pacific flight every week; it has nothing to do with Locke's visit). I've always said Ben = Liar, and tonight they made it very obvious that Ben's interests have always been about himself. It should be very satisfying when/if Ben gets his comeuppance especially if it's delivered by John Locke.

Meanwhile, the moments where Locke prepares to kill himself were extremely moving to me. Terry O'Quinn played that so well. Kudos.

One thing that did bother me about tonight's episode was the question of Locke's body. Ben kills him and then leaves the body for someone else to find. Now when Locke is taken to the funeral home, his body would have been prepared for burial. Without getting into gory details, Locke should be very, very dead. The fact that he's walking around, interacting with people makes me wonder - are we supposed to believe he's an apparition like Christian or that he's actually alive? This is, of course, believing that neither Widmore's or Ben's people got to Locke before the funeral home. My guess would be apparition but he's acting so normal. Perhaps Christian can give him lessons on how to act like a creepier ghost.

I agree with you Mac - trying to figure out what Eloise Hawking's motives are should prove very important. In this episode we see that Widmore seems to bear no grudge with her. After all, he sent Locke to see her when he was ready to go back to the island. What will Widmore think when he finds out that Ben of all people succeeded in getting her help? Could it be that her reaction - or lack thereof - to Daniel being in danger has something to do with the fact that she knew her son was working with Widmore?

#4. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 26, 2009 12:25 AM

Did anyone else think of Luke Skywalker when Locke was sitting on the beach with the blanket over his head?

This show has an amazing ability of making you think about who to trust. In the first few minutes, I was a believer in Widmore. Then Ben shows up in the hotel room, and I started to think differently. Then Ben kills him! I can't wait to see how that's resolved.

I love Lance Reddick, and hope he'll be back. I realize he's doing his thing on Fringe, but I really can't get enough of him. He was amazing in "The Wire". You also see in that show how ridiculously ripped that guy is.

Finding out that Ben was not FOOMED out of the plane makes me think there will be repercussions for his island return.

Curious to see if John was actually trying to recruit Walt to go back to the island, or if it was the show's way of tying up his plot line.

Is it just me, or has this island seen more wars than Palestine/Israel?

Nice to show the characters realizing the significant of some of the names (i.e. Widmore pointing out to Locke that his parents had a sense of humor in naming him after an English philosopher.)

Only a minor thing, but I would have liked to seen Jack clean shaven when he saw Locke. If seeing Locke is what caused him to go on his binge drinking/drug rampage, he looked like he had already stated. That was no mere Shephard five o'clock shadow he was rocking there. That and the fact that he tells Hurley later (while clean shaven) that was thinking about growing a beard. When he saw Locke before then, it appeared if he had already made up his mind.

What Dharma station were the Newbie's in? Apparently, they have a first-class medical wing somewhere, because some of those people were bandaged up far too well to be on the island we all know and love.

Is Frank the greatest pilot in the world? What a beautiful landing. How good can he land a plane in the Hudson?

#5. Posted by: The Other Other at February 26, 2009 12:27 AM

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaalt!

Oh, no! They killed /K/e/n/n/y/ Abaddon!

Oh, no! They killed /K/e/n/n/y/ Locke!

Or did tey?

A classical case of 'the unreliable narrator' throughout.

Who can you trust?

#6. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 26, 2009 12:28 AM

#2 @chesl8a0

"Why did Ben save Locke from committing suicide only to kill him?"

I think Ben needed Locke alive to help him return to the island. What set Ben off was the mention of Eloise Hawking. Once Ben heard that name he figured out how he could get back, making Locke expendable. Locke would be a threat to Ben's leadership so killing him served two purposes - a way back and a coup of sorts.

#7. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 26, 2009 12:30 AM

ILBLxxIS! (ilovebenjaminlinusxx is seventh!!!)

#8. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 12:30 AM

RATS!!! I didn't get it in time!!!

Okay then, ILBLxxIE!!! Plus, that's better because 8 is one of the numbers!!! =]

#9. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 12:31 AM

The Newbies (Ajirans?) are in the Hyrda station, on Alcatraz 2.0. It's where Jack was kept in an aquarium and Kate and Sawyer share bear cages (and bear hugs and... nevermind). When Locke stands on the beach at day break he's looking towards THE Island.

Interestingly enough, during their captivity Sawyer and Kate were part of a chain gang, working on a runway. Big enough for a big commercial airliner, perhaps?

Lapidus is quite the pilot, it seems, to land the plane intact.

#10. Posted by: chesl8a0 at February 26, 2009 12:33 AM

I think that the 316ers landed on the little island with the Hydra station. Then Lapidus and his own scarfy flight attendant paddled their way to the real Island, only to find the beach camp deserted.

#11. Posted by: vacc at February 26, 2009 12:34 AM

Whoever first mentioned the use of the runway on Hydra Island - good for you!

Definitely need to rewatch this episode before saying much more...

Something is funny with Locke's Death. Is it possible that Ben suffocated him into unconsciousness, then drugged him with something that mimics death like symptoms, and staged things?

#12. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 12:34 AM

Ben always has a plan.

Locke needs to die to win the war?

But, Locke's immortal soul lost to suicide won't win the war.

Ben kills Locke to insure the war is won.

Locke's immortal soul is saved.

And the plan to win the war is complete, thanks to Ben, and a little friendly guidance. Just like during the Purge.

The bug-eyed freak takes his orders from Alpert and Hawking... always has - always will.

#13. Posted by: TanziTwo at February 26, 2009 12:35 AM

Could it be that flight 316 crash landed on the other island? Caesar was holding a folder with Hydra station logo on it. There was also a wide shot that seemed to show the two islands from the point of the view of the water with the faintest glow of a beachside fire on the smaller island.

#14. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 26, 2009 12:35 AM

The Ajirans landed at the Hydra. Separate island.

#15. Posted by: Moirae at February 26, 2009 12:35 AM

Great Episode. I believe the new plane crashed on 'Zoo Cage" island. The island across from the main one. The notebooks in the office had the 'Hydra' station logo. Thats why Frank and Sun took a canoe to get to the main island. So 'present' Ben must have told himself in the past that in the future a plane would need to land there. So he had his people start clearing a path for a runway, years before it was needed. Amazing how it all fits. By the looks of the plane, Frank is one hell of a pilot, I'll call him Sully.

#16. Posted by: mike at February 26, 2009 12:44 AM

Thanks again for the great review Mac!

So now we know why those men came and tried to kill Ben when he landed in Tunisa. They were sent by Widmore.

I thought it was interesting that Locke died by strangulation (by Ben) just as his father died by being strangled (by Sawyer). Not sure if it has any significance, but it is interesting.

When I saw Lock with the black "hood" over his head, I thought of Charlie.

I really thought it was a combination of Hurley telling Jack "you're not supposed to raise him" along with Jack seeing his father sitting on a couch at his medical office that started his (Jack's) descent into bearded drug-addiction. Wasn't it right after seeing Christian that he asked a co-worker for a prescription. So we would have to assume that he had already seen his father before Ben showed up at the hospital.

One more thing . . . Ben = Creepy!

To paraphrase John and Mr Eko, I think I'm going to want to watch that again.

#17. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at February 26, 2009 12:47 AM

TOTHI = They're On The Hydra Island

#18. Posted by: chesl8a0 at February 26, 2009 12:48 AM

"316"

For an epi that a lot of peeps poopoo'd it sure got a lot of posts !?!?

Just got to watch the rerun

* I think Kate is already preggo when she shows up at Jack's. When he comes in his apt. and does his thing, it's a door we hear slam(?) and then the plunk on the bed sound. She used the ensuite to chuck and hence the tears in her eyes when Jack finds her in the bedroom. Also the "morning after" she didn't drink the coffee Jack served her.
Maybe?

Moving on... things that stick out

Ceasar, (condolence man) is in the "old" office and thumbs an issue of LIFE mag with the headline "Hydrogen Test". Didn't catch the date of it, but I think it may reflect to Jughead days? Ceasar doesn't trust Alida, hit the shotgun. Doodoo

Gotta watch our for Roxanne, I think she's a sleeper.

Couldn't help but notice that when Lock appeared on the beach, they did a pan of the beach and those "shoes" sitting atop some luggage. Where are they going to end up?

Now the "Holy Heck" scene: Lock chuck the cell, key I think, maybe Jack finds it in the bin? with some stuff on it.

It struck me that the whole time Ben is trying to talk John "out of it", he never makes an effort to remove the noose from around John's neck.?

#19. Posted by: Dee at February 26, 2009 12:52 AM

Damm i Love this show, No, really I LOVE IT!

#20. Posted by: Jenny Talia at February 26, 2009 1:01 AM

@mac

>Matthew Abbadon works for Widmore (thereby closing an open question),

Didn't we already know this from when Abaddon briefed (the girl Locke knifed whose name I can't remember) for the island mission?
____

>I still don't understand why Walt is exempt

Or Ji Yeon or Aaron.
____

>And then something curious happens. Locke tells Ben about his promise to Jin...

I thought it was pretty clear that the "Mrs, Hawking" revelation was the one that sent Ben into overdrive.
____

>Who is the woman (Sun?)? Was she wearing a scarf? How did the canoes originally get on the beach?

Locke seemed to be standing on the/a shore looking across the water at an island - Did 316 crash on Alcatraz, and Lapidus and, presumably, Sun, take the canoe to get over to the main island - presumably to look for Jin?
_____

Where was Caesarr searching in the intro episode? The wreckage? It seemed more like a room. The Alcatraz Island Sawyer-Austin International Airport (Interdimensional?) terminal building?
____

>While we're on the topic of canoes ... so far we know there are three.The Ajirans have two. Frank has one. How many canoes did Sawyer, Juliet, Miles and the other time leapers discover in "The Little Prince"? Was it only one?

There were two. The Losties took one, and somebody with a gun chased them in the other one.
____

>Four "Lost" moments have forced my jaw to uncontrollably drop: 1. Desmond in the hatch, 2. Michael killing Ana-Lucia and Libby, 3. The season three flash-forward finale, and 4. Ben killing Locke. Man oh man do I love it when my jaw drops.

Jumping though time, an island [poofing/blooping] out of existence, and the odd lost H-bomb [what was it's name, again?] don't make this list?

#21. Posted by: Cecil at February 26, 2009 1:04 AM

Since the Ajira plane "crashed" (in tact??) on the "Alcatraz" island, it's pretty obvious that Lapidus and (most likely) Sun left to head back to the main Island. We know that the two remaining outriggers wind up at the losties camp, so my thoughts are that Locke gathers up the survivors of Ajira 316 and takes them back to the main island and to the Oceanic 815 camp. They eat all the food there (as was seen when Sawyer et. al. return to the camp to find no food and two outriggers). Then, at some point, the Ajira survivors will turn on Locke (thanks to Walt for this info). They probably hunt him through the jungle, lose him, then return to the camp only to see one of the outriggers paddling away WITH LOCKE ON IT!!! (along with some other, unknown people). Thus, the outrigger chase ensues until the lead outrigger, along with Locke (time-skipping version), Sawyer, Juliette, Miles, Charlotte and Daniel, skips through time. But Present-Time Locke is still here somewhere, probably on his way to find the Oceanic 6.

A thought on last week's episode -- Eloise told Desmond that the island was not done with him yet. Since we don't yet know what happened at that marina, this is speculation on my part, but I think that Ben DID manage to fulfill his promise and kill Penny. He probably attempted to kill Desmond too, however couldn't because the island wouldn't allow it. Ben makes it onto Ajira 316 just in time, and therefore, back onto the island. Now Desmond will have to go back to the island with a new purpose -- to kill Ben! Ben was never meant to leave the island (as it was Locke who was supposed to turn the wheel), and it certainly seems like he certainly wasn't meant to return to it. The only reason he new to go to Eloise Hawking was because Locke told him that is where Christian told him that is where he needed to go. Once Ben had this info, he killed Locke. Unfortunately, Ben didn't know he'd have to bring Locke back to the Island to get back there himself, and I'm sure he didn't know Locke would be resurrected upon his return.

A poster last week wrote that maybe Christian Shepard died to get Jack to the island initially because that is where Jack, and maybe the rest of the Oceanic 6 (except Aaron), are supposed to be. It seems Locke has now had to do the same thing. Hopefully most of the action going forward is confined to what is happening on the island now that everyone is back.

#22. Posted by: Stocky at February 26, 2009 1:05 AM

@16: Nice catch on the runway!! I had completely forgotten about Sawyer and Kate (and other captives) having to clear that runway on Alcatraz island. Later on, when Sawyer asked Juliet why they were building it, Juliet replied jokingly that it was for "the aliens," then stated she didn't know why they were doing it. Now we all know why -- it was for the safe landing of Ajira 316.

#23. Posted by: Stocky at February 26, 2009 1:16 AM

O! to the M! to the G!!!

Loved this episode!!!!! It more than makes up for feeling that 316 was a little slow. I think it was brilliant for TPTB to reverse the order of the two epis. There was so much more suspense and surprise this way...

I am so happy that we we're right about the plane 'landing' on Hydra and the newbies taking the boats over. Whoo-hoo...I love it when a plan comes together!

I am still in shock about Ben strangling Locke, but don't really trust yet that he is a bad guy. I suppose the arguement could be made that he knew that Locke needed to die to get the O6 back and save the island, so what he did was for the "greater good", at least in his little buggie mind. But if that is the case, you would think he would have just let Locke kill himself. However, I believe he needed the name of Ms. Hawkings... oh gee, I don't know... it is all so complicated... or, it is quite simple = Ben is bad, Widmore is good, end of story?

I loved Abbadon's line about Waaalt getting so big. Perfect!!

#24. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 26, 2009 1:28 AM

One more thought... does anyone think that Libby could have been working for Widmore in the same way that Matthew Abbadon was (as in getting people to where they're supposed to be or something)?

She was the one who gave Desmond the boat which led him to the island. Also she was in the mental hospital with Hurley where he heard the numbers. which led him to Australia and which subsequently resulted in him being on Oceanic 815 and eventually the island.

#25. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at February 26, 2009 1:32 AM

It's a good thing the producers decided to flip this weeks and last weeks shows. "316" was so contrived as it was - Can you imagine what kind of ridicule it would have received if it had FOLLOWED tonight's episode?!!!!?

Who's good - who's bad? Probably remains to be seen. But one thing for sure - Benny is a rat-fink. (Little Missy - you need to get yourself a new heart-throb, for sure!)

This is going to be great fun!

#26. Posted by: davidrh at February 26, 2009 1:40 AM

Great review Mac. Thanks.

I’m flummoxed. Ben got on his knees and he begged, he beseeched, he told Locke how important he is, he saved his life, he was supportive right up until Locke said, "Eloise Hawking" at which time Ben strangled the life out of John Locke.

Why didn’t Ben want Locke to meet Eloise?

1954: It appears Alpert answers to Jacob, but is otherwise the head honcho. Widmore is a 17 year old punk. But somewhere between 1954 and The Purge (according to Widmore)he becomes the island’s leader. I don't remember Widmore saying he served for 30 years as the leader. Ben will kill at the drop of a hat, so why exile or "trick" Widmore when he could have killed him instead? Maybe that has something to do with the rules that Widmore broke when he killed Alex.

Poor John Locke is a pawn.

Frank Lapidus is a hell of a pilot.

When John tells Ben, "I promised Jin." Ben responds, "A promise is a promise." That got me to thinking about how Ben tends to keep his promises and that got me to wondering if the reason Ben remains relentlessly on the path he is on is because he made a promise to someone.

altogether a kick ass episode.

#27. Posted by: undaunted at February 26, 2009 1:43 AM

More observations:

Loved the crucifiction scene with John standing on the table, arms outstretched, Ben kneeling at his feet. As someone else said, amazing acting by Terry O'Quinn this whole episode.

I loved how honest Locke was in answering all questions posed to him. He must have known how crazy his answers would sound to anyone not familiar with the craziness that comes with island life, but he told the truth regardless.

I sure thought Caesar was in Ms. Hawkings office at the beginning. When they walked out on the beach I was like WTH!!

Love that some of the passengers were seen to FOOM out of the plane. Our theory that some are in the 1970's and some are in current time is alive an well! Right?

Another great line: Widmore's line about Locke's parents having a sense of humor when they named him.

I had the impression that Ben didn't really know Ms. Hawking, but time will tell. If he didn't, how did he get to the point of working with her to get the O6 back to the island?

Remind me never to break a leg in Tunisia!~!

#28. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 26, 2009 1:49 AM

Great review again Mac! And a great episode it was.

A couple of first observations (I'm sure many will follow):

-If Widmore was monitoring the Tunisia spot, wouldn't he have caught Ben arriving there as well? Or did his surveillance there start later? And why didn't Ben's people keep the place under surveillance?

-Widmore asked Locke if he remembers the "first time" they met. Could they have met another time as well? A time which is in Widmore's past, but Locke's future?

-Did anyone think Ben took the Widmore-phone from Locke and that was in the package he took from the hotel room earlier this season? Perhaps he somehow used it to track Penny down?

-So they're going all out with the resurrection now? No holding back, Locke really came back from the dead? Try to explain that away in reasonable scientific or even pseudo-scientific ways.

-Mac, did Widmore specify the length of his Other-leadership? Can't recall that detail. Was it really 30 years?

-Regarding Jack's guilt over Locke's death: it's probably fair to say that Jack's outburst did play a role in getting John to attempt suicide. The fact that Ben interfered and eventually killed John doesn't change that.

-Ben killing Locke: At first glance it seems inspired by John knowing about Eloise. Why? It can't be that Ben's pissed that John knows about someone who's (potentially) connected to Widmore, since Ben already knew that: Abaddon. Furthermore, since Ben started carrying Locke's body around, he must have known or suspected Locke could/would be resurrected. Then why kill him? Did he just suspect that they needed a proxy for Christian, because he knows Hawkings has a proxy fetish?

-Good to know that Walt still exists and the writers haven't forgotten him.

-I'm a bit confused how this episode could have played before "316". Or did they make the switch after writing but before production? Because scenes like the opening and ending beach scenes would have been very confusing if 316 hadn't been shown first. We would've had no clue as to who Caesar or Ilana were.

-I seem to remember they found two canoes in The Little Prince, not one. Oh oh, you asked a question in your review: JWTB Mac, JWTB.

-From the review; "Finally: Have we seen that Dharma office before? Is it connected to a station?"

I was wondering the same myself. I didn't recognise any landmarks that could clarify this. And, oh oh, more questions in the review...

-"Rhombus of Mystery" LOL

@1, MattS: "JBINDIL" Huh? What now?

@2 (and probably others, which I haven't read at this point): sorry for JWTBing on the canoes myself up there.

@3, shikotee: "Can we be certain that Ben killed Locke?"

We saw that happening, didn't we?

@4, Alex (not Rousseau): "A very good episode. We finally have enough information to see through Ben's manipulations. We know Ben is getting Locke to do what he wants. Unfortunately for Locke, he doesn't know what we know (that for example Jack takes a trans-Pacific flight every week; it has nothing to do with Locke's visit)."

But for all we know Jack started taking these flights only from that point onwards? John's mention of his dad could have made enough of an impact to trigger this. Which doesn't take away from the fact that both Widmore and Ben (and Hawkings as well probably) are lying, manipulative bastards.

"My guess would be apparition but he's acting so normal."

Have we seen him touching people? Christian didn't seem able to do that. Locke did seem to interact with objects normally though, like the blanket he wore in the opening beach scene.

"In this episode we see that Widmore seems to bear no grudge with her. After all, he sent Locke to see her when he was ready to go back to the island."

Did he? Did I miss that as well? I thought Christian told Locke about Hawking?

@5, The other Other: "Curious to see if John was actually trying to recruit Walt to go back to the island, or if it was the show's way of tying up his plot line."

I'd hardly call this tying up Walt's plot line. He was supposed to be special right? Crashing birds and all that. I'd definitely like to see more of Walt's story in the future.

Re: the timeline of Locke's visit to Jack. I interpreted this scene (but I don't remember all the details from past episodes, so it might conflict with those) to get to the following Jack-timeline:
happy Jack - visit to Hurley - visited by dead dad - drink drink drink - visited by Locke who mentions dead dad - because of Locke's visit Jack starts to believe that the Island will make things better (the Island is Sam Becket!) and starts making plane trips - he finds out about Locke's death (hmmm.... this did happen awfully quickly after the visit it seems, so perhaps there's no time in this scenario for Jack to fly around a lot; problem with my theory?) - We have to get back to the Island! - etc.

@6, Cecil Rose: I was sorry to see Abaddon go. (First reaction when he got shot: Sayid working for Ben. Then I realised that didn't match up, since Locke met Sayid after the Ben-incident. What was that Bencident?) But I guess his role was fulfilled. Man of mystery no more.

@10, chesl8a0: "When Locke stands on the beach at day break he's looking towards THE Island."

You probably mean Caesar? I suspected that as well, only at that point in the episode I wasn't completely sure yet whether we were looking at on Island/after crash stuff or back story for Caesar and Ilana (especially since I had in mind that this episode originally was planned to be shown before 316). But yes, now I think he was looking at The Island. The person who mentioned Alcatraz last week had a good catch!


@12, shikotee: Well, with Ben everything's possible, except for him telling the truth.

@13, TanziTwo: "But, Locke's immortal soul lost to suicide won't win the war."

You mean in a christian "suicide is evil and you won't go to heaven if you kill yourself" kind of way?

@14, Alex (not Rousseau): "Caesar was holding a folder with Hydra station logo on it"

Was he? Nice catch. I think we need a screen cap. :)

@17, Christine Loves Lost: "So now we know why those men came and tried to kill Ben when he landed in Tunisa. They were sent by Widmore."

That actually makes a lot of sense and answers my questions above. Thanks!

Btw, what's with Hurley's reactions lately. See Abaddon, run away screaming into the psyciatric ward. See Ben, run away screaming to the cops. Good thing he could control himself last week on the plane.

@19, Dee: "I think Kate is already preggo when she shows up at Jack's"

So who would be the daddy?

"Ceasar, (condolence man) is in the "old" office and thumbs an issue of LIFE mag with the headline "Hydrogen Test""

Ah, I tried to read what the cover said, but couldn't make it out before the camera turned. Great, thanks!

"Gotta watch our for Roxanne, I think she's a sleeper."

Who's she?

"Now the "Holy Heck" scene: Lock chuck the cell, key I think, maybe Jack finds it in the bin? with some stuff on it."

There was a key as well? What on earth was I doing (or what was my mind doing, time travelling?) during the Widmore-Locke scenes?

Okay, at this moment there are 20 posts, but after typing this long reply, when I hit post surely there are tens more. :)

#29. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 26, 2009 2:01 AM

@5...actually I was thinking Emperor Palpatine. :)

Has anybody thought of this? And it came from a coworker, but I was sad to think it may be true.....The reason Ben is all bloody and beat up before getting on the plane is because he wanted to settle some unfinished revenge before hopping back to the island.....Did he kill Penny?! He was at a marina.....

#30. Posted by: tina at February 26, 2009 2:19 AM

@21, Cecil: "Locke seemed to be standing on the/a shore looking across the water at an island - Did 316 crash on Alcatraz, and Lapidus and, presumably, Sun, take the canoe to get over to the main island - presumably to look for Jin?"

I'm not so sure the woman is Sun. Up until now the members of the O6 we've seen have been on The Island (and presumably in the past) and all the non-O6'ers are on Alcatraz. So presumably Sun and Sayid were never with the Ajirans (sounds like some alien race, so Juliet wasn't lying when she said the runway was for the aliens to land).

"There were two. The Losties took one, and somebody with a gun chased them in the other one."

Who has a gun at this point? Caesar found a shotgun. And presumably Ilana has one, since she was escorting Sayid.

@22, Stocky: "But Present-Time Locke is still here somewhere, probably on his way to find the Oceanic 6."

If we have two Locke's running around, there might be some merit to the Locke=Jacob theory.
(O, and it seems I was wrong in my off-Island Ben=Locke theory.)

"Unfortunately, Ben didn't know he'd have to bring Locke back to the Island to get back there himself, and I'm sure he didn't know Locke would be resurrected upon his return."

So why would Ben be carrying Locke's body around then?

"Hopefully most of the action going forward is confined to what is happening on the island now that everyone is back."

Well, there's still a lot of off-Island story untold: what happened to get the O6 on the plane, what's up with the Losties' next Generation (Walt, Aaron, Ji Yeon), what happened between Ben and Sayid and what happened to Ben last week, who is the Economist, backstories for the newbies, etc. etc. Most of that can and hopefully will be taken care of in flashbacks though. Darlton said they were going back to those soon (and flash forwards), with the main action being on-Island again, I think.

@23, Stocky: "I had completely forgotten about Sawyer and Kate (and other captives) having to clear that runway on Alcatraz island."

There were other captives? Remind me, who were they? And were are they now?

@27, undaunted: "When John tells Ben, "I promised Jin." Ben responds, "A promise is a promise." That got me to thinking about how Ben tends to keep his promises and that got me to wondering if the reason Ben remains relentlessly on the path he is on is because he made a promise to someone."

He promised Widmore to kill his daughter... Could that have been foreshadowing to finding out what happened last week to Ben (or what would have happened next week if the episode order was reversed)?

@28, Lost: "I loved how honest Locke was in answering all questions posed to him. He must have known how crazy his answers would sound to anyone not familiar with the craziness that comes with island life, but he told the truth regardless."

I noticed that as well. Locke, the anti-Ben, anti-Widmore. He might be manipulated from all sides, but at least he's an honest man. I think... He did his fair share of manipulating on the Island as well though, with the blowing up of the submarine and shooting that woman who's name we all forgot (the one with the parachute and the photo of Des and Penny).

Okay, I'm up to #29 now. Let's see, how many new posts appear this time after I hit the post button.

#31. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 26, 2009 2:22 AM

@ 29. Posted by: Plain Simple

-Mac, did Widmore specify the length of his Other-leadership? Can't recall that detail. Was it really 30 years?

Widmore told Locke that he led the others for 3 decades.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dang... no wonder the poor schmuck tried to kill himself, between Kate's comments about John never having Love, and Jack's comments about him being a pathetic old man. Way to kick a guy!... and presumably this is someone that they care about. I would hate to see how they treat their enemies.

**********************************

Why did Lapidis and presumably Sun take the passenger list with them? Are they trying to hide something? This is the only explanation I can come up with...

#################################

In the older episode when Ben turned up in Tunisia, he seemed to be well known at the hotel. This would imply that he had been through the "rabbit hole" many times. Did Widmore not have surveilance in place all those other times? Did Ben escape capture each time?.. not likely.

#32. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 26, 2009 2:24 AM

O, only one new post. :)

@30, tina: I'm afraid you're a week and 400+ posts too late to be the first with that observation. ;)

#33. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 26, 2009 2:24 AM

And another post. :)

@32, Lost: "Widmore told Locke that he led the others for 3 decades."

Thanks!

"Dang... no wonder the poor schmuck tried to kill himself, between Kate's comments about John never having Love, and Jack's comments about him being a pathetic old man. Way to kick a guy!... and presumably this is someone that they care about. I would hate to see how they treat their enemies.
"

Yeah, Kate and Jack sure are unpleasant people to be around. Or to be, I'd say. Their off-Island life hasn't done them any good. They are right though in some respects: Locke had nothing to return to and people who think that they are "special" in the weird metaphysical/spiritual/religious way that Locke thinks that he is, are often (always?) delusional.

"In the older episode when Ben turned up in Tunisia, he seemed to be well known at the hotel. This would imply that he had been through the "rabbit hole" many times. Did Widmore not have surveilance in place all those other times? Did Ben escape capture each time?.. not likely."

Didn't he check in under the name "Moriarty", Sherlock Holmes's enemy, or is my mind making that up now? Could it be some reference to how he is the enemy of the one who is looking for something (i.e. Widmore trying to find the Island), the detective? Perhaps the hotel is aware of Widmore's surveillance and is a safe haven for Ben.

#34. Posted by: Plain Simple at February 26, 2009 2:31 AM

@31, Plain Simple

The only other captive I can remember when Sawyer and Kate were being held was Karl.
______________________________________

Clearly at some point Ben knew he had to bring Locke back, and in good condition, or he wouldn't have had him stored 'on ice'. It is also implied that he knew about the resurection to come because he avoided Jack's question when asked whether Locke was really dead. There is clearly a lot that we still don't understand about Benji.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This has been bugging me: Why would you shoot at people paddling in a canoe?? If you were the Ajirans, you should not be suspicious enough yet to believe these 'strangers' are trying to hurt you. If you just want to get your canoe back, well then follow the people, don't kill them! It just doesn't seem like a rational explaination exists at this point. Time will tell, I'm sure.


#35. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 26, 2009 2:40 AM

→ 35. Posted by: Lost in ca
re: This has been bugging me: Why would you shoot at people paddling in a canoe?? If you were the Ajirans, you should not be suspicious enough yet to believe these 'strangers' are trying to hurt you. If you just want to get your canoe back, well then follow the people, don't kill them! It just doesn't seem like a rational explaination exists at this point. Time will tell, I'm sure.
- - - -
1) We don't know how long the Ajirans had been there when the shooting took place. They may have been there for three months like the Losties. Remember how "angry" they were after 90 days?

2)The canoe theft was on the big island by the "left-behind" Losties. The Ajirans were on the Hydra/small island this episode. MAYBE the folks that paddled the canoes to the small island, paddled the canoes back to the big island. Leaving the Ajirans were they crashed. One water bottle in the canoe, when it was on the big island, does not mean the Ajirans made it to the big island.

#36. Posted by: DocH at February 26, 2009 3:05 AM

@31: I don't think we ever found out WHO the other captives were. They may have just been other Others being punished, but Kate & Sawyer were definitely not theonly two people working on that runway...

And the woman Locke killed was Naomi.

Question: How much time do you think passes between Locke winding up in Jack's hospital and Locke killing himself? Judging by the bruises on Locke's face and head, it couldn't have been long. However Ben tells Locke that Jack booked that flight from LA to Sydney. Are we to assume this is his first flight trying to get back to the Island? If so, how much time passes between Locke's death and Jack's finding the obituary? A few days perhaps? Jack grew that full, thick beard awfully quick then... I believe, in the season 3 finale, Jack tells Kate he's spent the past few MONTHS flying back and forth from LA to Sydney, hoping to crash. If this is the case, the timelines just don't seem to add up. And I don't know if anyone explained this or not, or had any thoughts, but from what point did the 70 hours start, the time of Locke's death?

Oh, and my sister also pointed something out while we were watching tonight -- when Locke goes to see Sayid, while they are sitting down talking, there is a sign behind them that reads (in Spanish) "Escape the island"

#37. Posted by: Stocky at February 26, 2009 3:10 AM

Woh, woh, woh, when was it established that Kate was pregnant?

#38. Posted by: ilrt at February 26, 2009 3:11 AM

YES, good old evil Ben is back and more ruthless than ever. About two episodes ago when Ben threw his " I'll turn this car around right now" shtick with Jack and Sun, I actually half-believed the bug-eyed Machiavellian had turned over a new leaf and was on his best behavior, Oh well, I guess not. I definitely think that 316 landed on Alcatraz, wait a second, did Alcatraz move with the bigger island? I guess so. It would explain why they found some living quarters so quickly ( being much smaller. )

If Sun is with Lapidus, where is Sayid at? No longer with the Fed that was escorting him obviously, I definitely think the "leader" of flight 316 survivors is a Widmore agent. If John plays his cards right he might actually have the advantage for once over Ben, Just kidding, that will never happen. Ben always plays John like a Stradivarius.

Nevertheless, I have to admit I can't quite decode Ben's angle on this one, why was he so afraid of Locke meeting with Hawking? Ms. Hawking slammed him pretty hard in front of Jack, Sun, and Desmond and any one of those three is more clever than Locke is when it comes to Ben. So what was Ben so afraid of then? OH WELL, It wouldn't be Lost without lots to ponder.

#39. Posted by: unladenswallow at February 26, 2009 3:12 AM

Locke was savoring his island mango like a man with living taste buds! He seems to be flesh and blood, not embalmed or ghost-Locke. (The yellow mango was a great throw-back to his scene in the pilot with the creepy orange-peel smile.)

Everyone is talking about which island people landed on, but they also landed in different time periods, correct? Jack, Kate, Hurley (for sure) flashed out of the plane before it landed and seemed to be in Dharma time. I'm guessing Locke, Ben, Ceasar, Ilana and group are in the present. So, is Sun really with Lapidus? Or did she and Sayid FOOM to the past with the other original 815ers?

Dang, I love this show.

#40. Posted by: Clementine at February 26, 2009 7:02 AM

Did Widmore or Ben have Helen killed, so Locke would have nothing to prevent him from returning? Is Helen even really dead, or did Abbadaba-don just arrange a convenient gravestone?

#41. Posted by: Clementine at February 26, 2009 7:09 AM

And I thought Hurley's scene with Locke was perfect. He's okay with Locke when he thinks he's seeing another ghost, but scared to death when he finds out Locke is alive!

#42. Posted by: Clementine at February 26, 2009 7:14 AM

@16
Donno if somebody has already mentioned this. But I thought only some of the 316-ers i.e previous Losties Jack, Kate, Hurley and may be Sun, Sayid were Foomed in and have gone back in time (70s) to join Juliet, Sawyer etc and the Ajirans plus Ben are presently crashed on the island. It didnt seem like they were time travelling..if so Ben wouldn't know about the Ajira landing or the need to build a runway for the future. May be not??

#43. Posted by: Jag at February 26, 2009 7:28 AM

Great episode ... that Ben ....
I need to head out to work, but I have this burning question ...

When did Locke learn of Eloise Hawking? I rewatched the scene with Widmore a couple times and don't remember hearing him say anything. Can someone clear this up for me?

#44. Posted by: BluSerene at February 26, 2009 7:48 AM

Is it just me or did anyone notice that when Ben discovered Locke trying to kill or sacrifice himself as I might call it, there were a lot of Christ simmilarities? For instance, Ben was like Judas betraying Jesus and Locke being sent to die to save the rest of the island, and then coming back from the dead.Is Locke the Savior and all the survivors his disciples?

#45. Posted by: maryann at February 26, 2009 8:02 AM

Is Caesar in the running to be the next POTI (presideny of the island)? The marshal who was escorting Sayid on the flight, Ilana seemed so afraid of him and aware that he at least considers himself in charge.

#46. Posted by: babush at February 26, 2009 8:08 AM

Ahh, collective intelligence. I love it.

Based on the many excellent observations and comments from everyone, I think it's safe to assume (until it isn't) the following:

* Ajira 316 landed on Alcatraz (presumably on the makeshift runway ... although I'm not sure how far the Others got with that thing, so Lapidus still deserves kudos).

* They're near/around the Hydra station (@Alex: NICE catch on the Hydra logo, btw.)

* Lapidus and the "woman" (I gotta think this is Sun) used the canoe to go back to the main island to reunite with the 815ers.

* Thanks to all for pointing out the number of canoes seen in "The Little Prince." That makes things even trickier: In this episode, two canoes are on Alcatraz and Frank has the other. In "The Little Prince" two canoes are at the abandoned beach camp on the main island. Do somem of the Ajirans move from Alcatraz to the main island? There seemed to be a lot of 316 survivors, so I doubt *all* of them made the trip (especially the wounded) ... but then again, we can't be sure of the time period, so it's possible the two canoes found by Sawyer/Juliet and the time leapers in "The Little Prince" were put their by another group (the missing clan of Others, perhaps?).

Who knew canoes could be so confusing?

#47. Posted by: mac at February 26, 2009 8:09 AM

@12 Shikotee - Something is funny with Locke's Death. Is it possible that Ben suffocated him into unconsciousness, then drugged him with something that mimics death like symptoms, and staged things?

Great review Mac!!! I am having trouble keeping all the events straight in my head. Imagine those Lost watchers who are not part of this blog trying to make sense of all the time events. (This blog offers me quite a bit of clarification...) Anyways, Shikotee brings up an interesting theory. I noticed that after Ben put Locke back into the noose to "stage" the suicide, Locke is standing on the table. I thought it strange when I saw it last night, but that would support Shikotee's theory that Locke is not really dead...only drugged to appear dead and then after re-entry onto the island...brought him back to "life".

I need to finish reading the posts and will be back...

#48. Posted by: boodle at February 26, 2009 8:23 AM

Clementine #41: I wonder about that too; There is nothing to make us a think Helen is actually dead. Although I thought it interesting she is said to have died of a brain aneursym.

So if Widmore really was island leader for 3 decades and we know he was not only not the leader, but a snot nosed punk in 1954...then let's say he came to power at age 18 in 1956 and served as leader until 1986. Doesn't that mean The Purge happened later than we thought it did, right?

And it would also indicate that Dharma appeared under Widmore's regime. That fits my sense of Dharma/Widmore being on the same side.

Who said Jacob didn't like technology? Was that Ben? Because if that is a true statement, then it would seem we can deduce that Jacob opposed Dharma. And then we can deduce that the teams are Dharma/Widmore vs Jacob/Alpert.

And both sides want Locke dead or alive.

I'm thinking Ceasar is a Widmore plant and so is Ilana.

I think it's a good bet that there is a price on Widmore's head on the island.

#49. Posted by: undaunted at February 26, 2009 8:32 AM

Great job mac and everybody else on this eps. so far.

So this makes it the 2nd Ben kills John, WTH. I wonder if they can charge Ben the second time around? Talking about charging w/a murder, did any notice after Ben cleaned up any evidence of anyone else being in the room with John. That Ben used a cloth on the door knob then resumed using his bare hands.

When Walt mentioned his dream to John. The dream probably refers to the war Widmore was talking about.

@40 Clementine
I also believe Sayid foomed back to the 70's.

Another observation, this time it was during John's visit to Hurly. A woman was sitting in the background trying to cover her face with a book. What was that about?

#50. Posted by: mozart is not deaf at February 26, 2009 8:39 AM

@ 12. Posted by: shikotee
"Whoever first mentioned the use of the runway on Hydra Island - good for you!"

I thought I was the first to bring that up, so thanks :-)

This was a very intense episode, my mind was reeling last night.

Some thoughts...
-Caeser finding the shotgun makes the most sense of who is in the canoe chasing Sawyer et al.
-I agree that once Ben heard Hawking's name, he didn't need Locke anymore. But why did hearing about Jin being alive cause such a bug-eye response?
-I loved how that lady said she found Locke 'standing in the water'
-being from NY, I was very bothered by the license plate in the Walt scene. They made a point of showing it, but those plates haven't been issued since 2001. what's up with that?
-Walt will play a larger role in the future.
-never looked up 'Abaddon' - but interesting wikipedia page!
-have to go back and look again, but was Sayid the only picture that displayed when Widmore gave Locke the binder? It seemed that Sayid was in the exact spot on the roof in the picture as he was when Locke got to him.

#51. Posted by: Steve at February 26, 2009 8:42 AM

The whole runway thing was a joke. All they were doing was moving rocks, getting sweaty and getting horny so...well you know.

The plane did not look like it landed on a runway. Far from it, it was barely off the beach in the jungle.

Also, were there cameras when Ben landed? I don't think so.

So how long has it been since John Locke died and the Aijira flight, or since John's conversation with Jack and his suicide? I ask because in the season 3 finale, Jack reads Locke's/Bentaham's obituary, so that happened recently. Jack tells Kate he has been flying Oceanic (for weeks?) trying to get back. The night of Locke's suicide/murder Ben tells Locke that Jack booked a flight to Sydney. So how long has Ben been toting Locke around?

Cristian did touch his grandson Aaron.

#52. Posted by: Theoldred at February 26, 2009 8:42 AM

@ 50
I meant, 2nd time,
& ,anyone notice.

sorry, I'll get right.

#53. Posted by: mozart is not deaf at February 26, 2009 8:45 AM

@ 48. Posted by: boodle, in response to shikotee about Locke - I kept pausing on that scene last night. It really looked like Locke was standing on the table. I'm not convinced he was actually killed.

#54. Posted by: Steve at February 26, 2009 8:48 AM

Wow what a crazy episode! I find myself smiling every week as posters struggle back and forth with whether Ben is good or evil. Michael Emerson is genius with this role. Ben's ambiguity is what makes him one of the best characters on the show IMO.

It strikes me that both Ben and Widmore may be evil-doers who are trying to regain control of the island. Maybe because neither of their intentions with regards to the island were ever pure but more about selfishness and power, they were never really in control during their respective reigns as leader. (Hence, Richard Alpert pulling the strings from the wings. Alpert throughout this time was trying to arrange for Locke's rise as the leader.)

Widmore and Ben both have Locke as an integral part of their planned returns to the island because he is the essential element...the island's true leader. My first thought when Ben stopped Locke's suicide only to kill him was that Locke making the ultimate sacrifice for the good of the island would maybe make him "all powerful" right away. Ben knows this so stops him and handles things his own way.

I also think that once Jack accepts his destiny and returns to the island he will somehow play a leadership role. Could Christian have been a tortured, lost soul like Locke, who was destined to lead the island but never fulfilled his destiny. Now in his ghostly form he is trying to guide the new leaders in their war over the island. Christian is related to Jack, Claire and Aaron. Aaron will undoubtedly play a pivotal role. Is that too much of a coincidence?

Lots of specutlation, I know but what do you think?

#55. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 26, 2009 8:56 AM

Oh, and one other thing. When Locke was having his leg realigned by the crazy Tunisian doctor, they showed a camera angle from his fuzzy viewpoint right before he passed out. There was a woman to his left. Was that Sayid's Nadia or am I crazy? Can anyone get a still of that frame? I know she is supposed to be dead but did we ever see her body? Was Sayid supposedly with ther when she died?

#56. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 26, 2009 9:04 AM

I hearby declare Ben to be the Greatest TV Villain of All Time.

#57. Posted by: Dave at February 26, 2009 9:12 AM

I'm trying to remember the scene when Ben and Eloise meet the first time this season. I don't have the episodes DVRd. He was in the church and she came in with a hood on and started talking. They seemed to know eachother. So did Ben learn about Eloise from John, or did he freak out that John knew about Eloise?

Also, did Ben really kill John once before? I thought he shot him in the grave, but did he know for sure that John was dead, or was he "leaving him for dead". This time he made sure John was dead.

#58. Posted by: Rudy at February 26, 2009 9:13 AM

I want to start by claiming personal brain death for posting results on the previous week. That being said, this was definitely a jaw-dropper of an episode. So let's get into it:

@2: chesl8a0 - Remember when Ben told Locke that he had to kill his own father? This could be part of some ascension ritual. Ben obviously saw a game-changer when he heard about Jin and more specifically Eleanor. This is his big chance to re-grab control once back on the island. This also explains why he wanted to go back, but curiously doesn't explain why he said he could never go back and now feels he can, unless getting everyone back together does in fact change the possibility of his return. Perhaps that's why he's been "protecting" all of the O6 for all of this time - either he knew at some point they'd all go back or he was holding out hope that they'd all go back and was waiting for the right catalyst.

@12: shikotee - I think Ben really was dead. No drugs or partially suffocated shenanigans here. Someone else found him after Ben left. If Locke were still alive they'd have figured it out and been able to do something about it.

@42: Clementine - It is quite funny that Hurley has now come to accept that he sees dead people but when one of them turns out to be real flesh and blood he almost jumps out of his skin. If Abbadon hadn't been there would Locke have had a chance at getting Hurley to come back to the island with him?

@45: maryann - Oh, no. Let's not GO THERE!

@47: mac (can't believe I get to respond to the MAN himself!) - It may be safe to say that Lapidius and (probably) Sun are heading back to the main island to catch up with the rest of the Losties, but they're likely in for a rude awakening to find out that they're 30-40 years in the past! If they're still alive they'd be in their 70's when L&S show up!

@49: undaunted - Regarding Helen's death, I was thinking when watching the episode to write down the date of her death and see if it correlates to any specific incident on the island. One would think that D&C wouldn't show us the date of her death if it weren't significant in some way. I believe it was 2006, perhaps in October? Anyone got it on DVR?

@50: mozart - Ok, one thing I was thinking after the show was over was how Locke will react to Ben when they speak for the first time. Given that he (Locke) is alive and well, even if Ben is a sniveling power-grabbing murderer he did manage to get everyone together and get them plus Locke back to the island. I'm guessing he didn't expect Locke to come back to life given how he bid Locke farewell at the end, but nonetheless Ben is the reason why everyone is back on the island, Locke included, healthy (that's a relative term) and together again (again, a relative term given the 30 year separation). So thinking all of this through Locke could reasonably justify killing Ben (given that he has now attempted to kill him twice) or he could actually thank Ben. What kind of perverse but somewhat justifiable response that would be! I'm voting for the latter, if only because this IS Lost and it does fit in to the mentality of the show.

Ok, I've done my best not to repeat anything in the posts that I have seen so far. But I can only see up to 52 at the moment and I expect I'll be re-inundated once I hit the post button...

#59. Posted by: LostedIt at February 26, 2009 9:16 AM

48. Posted by: boodle at February 26, 2009 8:23 AM

I noticed that after Ben put Locke back into the noose to "stage" the suicide, Locke is standing on the table. I thought it strange when I saw it last night, but that would support Shikotee's theory that Locke is not really dead...only drugged to appear dead and then after re-entry onto the island...brought him back to "life".


Locke was NOT standing on the table. I just checked a sceenshot because I was thinking the same.

#60. Posted by: BTLY at February 26, 2009 9:22 AM

A few thoughts,

I beleive that eveyone "that had to go back" ie: Sayid, Sun, Hurley, Jack, Kate, must have been FOOMED just before the crash landing. That would place the Ajirans + Locke + Ben on Alcatraz in the present (3 years after he 06 left).

Why the FOOM...unfinished business for them in the past...(that's where they seem to have been FOOMED because that VW van sure was looking clean...When you think about it makes some sense in a "they were never suppose to leave" kinda way.

The more we learn the more I think, as I've mentionned before that what we are witnessing is not the "present "per say. I think this has all happened before and we are seeing from the "present" perspective. I believe widmore knew of Locke not as a memory a la Desmond/Faraday but because it had already happened and Widmore has gone through his life knowing this.

Somehow I believe all this knowledge is known... in a book, in someone's, maybe Jacob's, mind. I look at it as a prophecy.

Anyway back to the epi...

I believe Widmore said he defended or protected the island for 30 years and was the leader of HIS people, but I don't think he was the leader for 30 years.

This got me thinking...1957 Widmore = 17...if we use this as a starting point (because who really knows if he wasn't born there....) 1957 + 30 = 1987 = forced off the Island. I know she looks good, but no way Penny is in her 20's, this means, I think, that Penny was born and has lived on the Island! WOW!!!! Nosebleed....

Sorry for the long post and oh yeah, I'm wondering if Walt doesn't have something to do with the war to come, as a leader maybe...

#61. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at February 26, 2009 9:24 AM

Maryann @ 45 -- wow, that's pretty perceptive. I didn't notice that, but yeah!

#62. Posted by: Dave at February 26, 2009 9:25 AM

@ 51 - Caeser finding the shotgun makes the most sense of who is in the canoe chasing Sawyer et al.

Whoever was shooting was definately not using a shotgun. Only one bullet at a time was entering the water around the Foomer's canoe. And the shotgun had only 2 shots.

#63. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at February 26, 2009 9:29 AM

@ LostedIt / 59 -- Good point. All that paddling will be for naught. And poor Sun ... she can't catch a break.

(Incidentally, I think Yunjin Kim should have won an Emmy for that unreal response to Jin's supposed death. That scream was just so *visceral*.)

#64. Posted by: mac at February 26, 2009 9:29 AM

@ 62. Posted by: Dave

"... this means, I think, that Penny was born and has lived on the Island! WOW!!!! Nosebleed...."

Great idea. I've said more than once that I believe there is more to Penny than meets the eye. She can't be as innocent as they've made her out to be.

#65. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 26, 2009 9:31 AM

Did anyone notice the shepherds leading the sheep across the highway when John and Abaddon were headed to the airport? Did you also notice that two of the sheep did not cross with them?

Or is it all coincidence?

#66. Posted by: babush at February 26, 2009 9:41 AM

Question - I thought the island wouldn't allow people to kill themselves. Remember Michael wanted to die? So why would the island let Locke kill himself? And why was Ben able to strangle him to death if the island doesn't allow it?

#67. Posted by: Renee at February 26, 2009 9:45 AM

So methinks Widmore, who we saw at 17 to be a not very nice person, is not telling the truth to Locke. He likely did lead the island and brought Dharma to the island. Hence the island needed a new leader and made a poor choice in Ben. Widmore was exiled because he was misusing the island's powers.
Ben has now been similarly exiled. I believe partly because he is selfish and only wants to lead, but I also think he doesn't entirely believe in the island. I guess that's true of Widmore too. They've seen the island's abilities and want to use them for their own ends, but they don't have faith in the island as Locke does.
I think Ben heard the Hawking would be able to get them back to the island and then decided to kill Locke. Prior to that he didn't think there was a way back. Though he'd come and gone in the past, turning the FDW changed that and Ben thought he was stuck.
Ben goes to see Hawking and finds out that Locke needs to go back. Therefore they go get the body from the funeral home. Ben only carted Locke's body around after meeting Jack at the funeral home.
At that point Ben may have suspected there would be a resurrection possible, knowing he had to take the body back. When he first killed Locke, he didn't know he had to take the body back and so would not have suspected Locke to come back to life and get in his way retaking the island.
So I'm agreeing with undaunted @ 49 that there's ultimately Widmore/Dharma (who's using Locke for his own ends) vs Alpert/Jacob (who truly want Locke to lead) but then there's this wild card Ben who is only out for himself.

Why would Jack, Hurley, and KAte FOOM but not Sayid and Sun? I'm thinking Sayid and Sun have to have FOOMED. But then who is the woman with Lapidus? If it were a flight attendant then the passengers on the plane would have said so rather than referring to her as "a woman". So I'm not necessarily sold on the woman being Sun. But if not Sun, then who?

#68. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at February 26, 2009 9:50 AM

Still haven't had a chance to re-watch, but why miss all the fun here?!?

I gotta say, I felt the scene with Walt was pretty skimpy. Once again, the human interaction is just not believable. This takes place before Walt meets with Hugo, and is the first time Walt meets anyone from the island.

Remember - Walt and Locke were friends. What possibly could be more important to Walt that he could only afford a 5 minute conversation, and then breaks it off because he has to go somewhere?

I can understand why the rest of the O6 would be cold with him, but Walt?

I'm sorry, but the writers need to come up with better excuses as to why these people don't talk to each other!


@5. Posted by: The Other Other
re: "who to trust - Ben or Widmore"

To some degree, it's almost soap-opera-ish! The writers love messing with our heads! This episode certainly paints Widmore as the victim, and we are meant to believe Ben is one hell of an S.O.B.! I guess only time will tell if this is misdirection.

Question - Is anyone aware of specific circumstances where Widmore has lied? Is he a reliable source of information?

We don't like him because Ben made us think he was evil, and because we didn't like the way he treated Desmond. Widmore may be a dick, but is he really a bad guy?

We know Ben blames Widmore for Alex's death, but it is important to remember that Widmore did not do this himself - it was Keeny! If anything, Widmore is guilty of hiring a psychopath to take down..... well..... a psychopath!

We very well know that we can't rely on anything that Ben tells us, as he is a skilled liar and manipulator.

@13. Posted by: TanziTwo
re: "Locke and suicide"

Could this be something related to the faith theme? In many religions, suicide is not acceptable. For Catholics, suicide would deny you proper burial and rites, and you would be destined to go to purgatory - a limbo between heaven and hell.

When Locke was going to end it all, he had lost faith in who he was, and what he was doing. Had he hung himself, he would have died a broken man. Ben talks to him, restores his faith, and then whammo! Damn - these writers mess with our head good!

@23. Posted by: Stocky
re: Hydra island runway

This was already speculated last week by someone, so the true congrads goes to them! With the time travel aspect, it raises the peculiar notion of whether this runway was built specifically for this crash.

@26. Posted by: davidrh
re: Episode switcharoo

It is hard to believe that they ever even considered reversing the order of episodes - it just wouldn't work. Does anyone remember what the specifics were with the switcharoo - ie - when did they decide to switch. If it was during filming/production, I would guess they re-wrote things slightly.

@29. Posted by: Plain Simple

Holy super long post Batman!
(says the guy who is in the process of compiling a super long post)

re: "Widmore monitoring Tunisia"

Same thought crossed my mind. My guess is that with the discovery of the bodies of the guys Ben whacked with his death stick, Widmore was able to deduce that this was the island exit, and thus placed the camera?

I guess the question is - is this how Widmore left the island as well? When he did, I'm sure he was disoriented. By the time he found help, perhaps he could not find the exact spot where he returned.

re: "Widmore-phone"

I'd guess that he took it - he did sweep the place pretty good, to cover his tracks. Did Locke ever even use that phone? They had to have some reason for introducing it!

re: "certainty of Locke's death"

The way they handled it, there is the possibility that he was not killed. Of course, something like this would be highly improbable. But not impossible. I guess it all depends on which way they go....

Enough for now! Better to start a new post as I read the rest of the comments!

#69. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 9:52 AM

First of all, Mac, VERY funny recap as usual, loved your comment about Dr. Bishop's tank.

#56 - I caught that, too! I thought I was crazy thinking it was Nadia. But why would she be there?

It seems tome that everyone is putting Widmore-as-Island-leader on the Dharma side, but he was with R. Alpert, thus on the "Others" side. When Ben came to the Others after the Dharma purge, he wanted to become leader, so he somehow got Widmore off the Island.

Also, something no one has mentioned, I think...Does anyone think Jack's granddad was on the island during the war? They made a point of Jack looking oddly at the photo of war-era Island in the Lamp Post....

#70. Posted by: Christina at February 26, 2009 9:54 AM

Locke's "Suicide"

If you noticed, none of the several characters that have attempted suicide have been successful.

1) Michael - gun doesn't go off
- crashing the car

2) Jack is interrupted by a car crash

3) Locke is interrupted by Ben

Suicide appears to be off-limits

#71. Posted by: JP at February 26, 2009 9:57 AM

***** SPOILERS *****
After watching some of the making of eps.9
. There is a scene of Sun & Ben coming out of a outrigger. I'm guessing Sun didn't FOOM back to Fez & Red in 70's.

#72. Posted by: mozart is not deaf at February 26, 2009 10:15 AM

I could hardly sleep last night from mulling over LOST! great show! I truly wonder if one has to be cracked out to watch/understand this show. lol!
I love reading everyone's posts!

just curious:

1) I think Ben lied to John about Jack buying a plane ticket just to try to stop him from hanging himself because I figured they all didn't get plane tix until they met with Eloise

2) I thought once Ben left the island he couldn't return?

3) If Widmore knows Eloise, why doesn't he just go "back" to the island the same way Ben did?

4) and one random, old, ongoing personal wish that I can't let go is that Claire get to read Charlie's Greatist Hits list that he gave Desmond!!!!

#73. Posted by: Aubrey at February 26, 2009 10:16 AM

I'm not sure who said what, but here's my 2 cents.

Locke was foomed out of the plane before it crashed landed. They said they found this guy standing in some water.

Ben is totally out for himself! He always has us going back and forth on good guy - bad guy. Not anymore. He's vicious, pure and simple. He shot Locke and now strangled him.

Plane landing on the other island makes so much sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

Penny was born on the island! I really think that is an important piece of information. Who knows how, but it'll be big.

Mac - Thanks for all you do. Amazing. And the all of the collective thoughts and ideas sure helped with this episode. I can't wait to read more.

#74. Posted by: dk at February 26, 2009 10:17 AM

iam absolute certain that ceasar is the same guy as captain tariq; the guy who was tortured by sayid in the episode where we first say benjamin linus!

#75. Posted by: luuk at February 26, 2009 10:28 AM

Weren't Widmore and Eloise a couple while on the Island in the 50's? Or was it one of the other guys?

#76. Posted by: Christina at February 26, 2009 10:34 AM

@38. Posted by: ilrt
re: "Woh, woh, woh, when was it established that Kate was pregnant?"

It hasn't. Pure speculation.

@39. Posted by: unladenswallow
re: What happened to Sayid?

Was wondering about that myself!
As he was a prisoner, I'd guess he bolted. Could he have secretly met up with Sun and Frank on their canoe?

@40. Posted by: Clementine
re: "Locke and the Mango"

While watching this, all I could think of was - when you die, don't they sew your mouth closed?

@51. Posted by: Steve
re: Hydra runway

Good for you Steve, when you picked this up last week!

Many have mentioned that the runway was not complete, but remember - we only saw it during the time that Jack and crew were there. It is possible that it was still being worked on afterwards...

@52. Posted by: Theoldred

Did you see the size of that plane? Do you know what the standard size runway is for such a plane? At best, the island runway was meant to help an initial landing, but not meant for a smooth one. I would guess that there was not enough space, so the plane continues into the jungle.

LoL - Can you show me, with the doll, where Christian touched Aaron?

@66. Posted by: babush
re: "shepherds leading the sheep"

The symbolism was not lost on me. Like Jack bringing back the O5, like Christian manipulating Locke! Like TPTB manipulating us viewers, over and over again!

@67. Posted by: Renee
re: "So why would the island let Locke kill himself?"

So he could be reborn! This is way too Jesus-y! If Christian speaks for the island, we knew it had to happen. The true test of faith - self sacrifice!

@68. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes
re: "Why would Jack, Hurley, and KAte FOOM but not Sayid and Sun?"

Was wondering about that myself. It would make more sense if they too did FOOM, but possibly FOOMed somewhere else on the island, or other time?

@70. Posted by: Christina
re: Jack's Gramps

Gramps serving in the military certainly is a possibility. Good spec!

@71. Posted by: JP
re: suicide

Good point! But is the island anti-suicide, or is this just the whole course correction thing - ie - if you have stuff to do in the future, you can't die! So much for free will!

@73. Posted by: Aubrey
re: Jack and the plane ticket

Of course Jack didn't buy a plane ticket. Why would he? He can fly for free whenever he wants, lol!

Ben is the one who told us you can't return once you leave, and he is rather unreliable as a source of info!

Darn - is my nose bleeding?
I need to do that re-watch!

#77. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 10:34 AM

***** SPOILERS *****
Forgot to mention. Sayid was wearing a Dharma Uniform in one of the scenes. So, he must have been FOOMED.

#78. Posted by: mozart is not deaf at February 26, 2009 10:44 AM

I think Ben wants to go back to the island, has been exiled by Jacob/the island, but thinks he can go back if the others drag a plane to the island. His evidence is that the Oceanic flight accidentally stumbled onto the island. So his plan was to convince the O6 to go back and he would be along for the ride. He saves Locke (initially) because he needs him to go to the island. Also he knows Locke is a blabbermouth and will tell him something he may want to know like Jin's alive, Alpert told him he had to die to get everyone back to the island, Widmore is his buddy and has been helping him, that Eloise Hawking could help him, etc. Once he has mined Locke of all relevant information, he kills him. Ben knows that Alpert is someone who REALLY knows how the island works and if he says Locke has to die, he has to die. To that end, I also think that Ben is trying to protect Hawking from Widmore so killing Locke will prevent them from meeting.

I thought I saw Sayid on the beach with the Ajirans. He didn't seem to be handcuffed (or have his head cracked wide open!). Also the plane was attempting to hit the half done runway but didn't quite make it. Lapidus is no Sully! The plane was fairly small. Hurley bought 78 seats and there wasn't more than 20 people total that got on board so maybe 100 seat capacity. A small runway or clearing would have been good enough to take a shot at. Was the runway Alpert's idea?

Lapidus took Sun because she is desperate to get back to Jin. That was the only reason she agreed to get on the flight. She realized they were on the wrong island.

Will Locke now get the Ben-style beatdowns as island leader? He seems pretty injury-prone as it is. Did anyone notice if he was walking with a limp or has the island healed his leg along with his being dead?

@29/Plain Simple: Widmore said do you remember the first time because it was 30 years ago and it was now their second meeting. (Don't make me go into long-term memory again.)

@31/Plain Simple: Caesar got a sawed-off shotgun on board? If so he is either a law officer or can bribe people. Why did he hide it from Ilana? And weren't they searching Faraday's lab? Why did he have a shotgun?

@23/Stocky: I don't think they were captives just Others who maybe disagreed with Ben (like Karl).

@41/Clemetine: I think showing Locke that Helen was dead was a way to keep him from constantly searching for her which would keep him from Widmore's primary objective of collecting the O6.

Was Helen someone's constant? She died of a brain aneurysm just like Minkowski. Her death date (4/8/06) doesn't correlate with anything. Yet.

#79. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 26, 2009 10:44 AM

@61 Prosecutor67: "Somehow I believe all this knowledge is known... in a book, in someone's, maybe Jacob's, mind. I look at it as a prophecy."

I think the real answer is more straight-forward. After seeing Abaddon and Widmore ready and waiting for Locke in Tunisia, save me a comfy seat on the "looping" bandwagon. Last week Christin (post #226) remarked:

"Did anyone else notice how the scene where Jack meets up with Hurley and Kate on the island was slightly different the second time than it was the first time."

And ealgumby responded (post #280):
"yes ... you are correct ... the scene is different! In fact, the whole scene was obviously shot more than once, as it's different from before Jack dives in and beyond. Don't know if this is supposed to imply a time-loop (which is consistent with the theory STILL near and dear to my heart ... time stuck looping between 1954 and 2008), or just sloppy production"

And riding in Sherman and Peabody's way back machine to season 2, from Mac's recap of "Adrift":

"So the big moment we're waiting for -- the Jack-Desmond explanation -- will have to wait. Now, I may be wrong, but seeing this scene play out from a different angle changed things a bit. Originally, I got the impression that Desmond not only recognized Jack, but was expecting him. In this latest version, it seems as though Desmond doesn't know Jack."

At that time of that review, we didn't know Des' time traveling back story. Now that we're older and wiser, we're hip that Des relived his life from moving in with Penny to the hatch implosion (with varying degrees of awareness), and then looped again from his time in the military to his freighter phone call (since some of that time overlaps with the first loop, he has potentially relived certain sections of his life 3 times).

In fact, I think if you go back through Desmond's appearances from seasons 2-4, it has been left purposefully ambiguous whether any given scene contains Des1, Des2, or Des3.

Take for example Des' reaction to Locke's banging on the hatch ("Live Togther")- he is happily rescued from suicidal despair. But we had previously seen in "Man of Science" that when Locke actually enters the hatch, Des is hostile and suspicious and holds him at gunpoint. From the same epis, in "Live Together", Des talks to Penny outside of the stadium with no awareness of the "Constant" events, but once inside the stadium, in "Man of Science", there is a strong suggestion that Des knows Jack's fate.

TPTB have said that the Desmond-centric episodes were the key to understanding how time works in Lost. So to ealgumby's post, what if not just Desmond, but several other characters have been "looping" all along (sneaky bastards)?

In seasons 1-4, the Oceanic 815 survivors appear to react to events for the first time (i.e. not looping), but encounter other characters who clearly know future events- Hawking, Abaddon, Widmore, Malkin, Richard, etc. This is especially true of Ben, who pulls off some incredibly intricate plans that involve multiple people who must react exactly as anticipated (note we've seen the scene from New Otherton when flight 815 crashed three seperate times, each with different nuances- Groundhog Day, anyone?). How would they know the future if they hadn't already experienced it?

With last week's episode and the not-quite-duplicate return-to-island scenes, the Oceanic 6 now appear to be looping as well. Ealgumby's theory fits very nicely: a chain of events that started in the 1950's will lead to a catastrophic event by 2010 (series end), unless the Oceanic survivors (and Des) fulfill their destiny and restore balance. They had no choice but to be on Oceanic 815 just as they have no choice but to return- the universe will "course correct" to get them on those planes, defying all laws of physics and probability in the process.

Like Faraday's rat Eloise, they cannot change the entrance or exit to their personal maze. Attempts at exercising free will temporarily leads to the illusion of freedom (Desmond, Michael, Oceanic 6, etc), but ultimately any path chosen but the right one leads only to a dead end. They are fated to rerun (or loop) their path as many times as necessary until they find their dharma- their righteous duty or virtuous path (per Wiki), whether by last week's "proxy", or with actual Desmond-style do-overs.

The problem for our favorite Losties- played out again tonight when evil Ben did the dirty deed on poor Locke, is that they continue to be manipulated by characters with much higher levels of awareness who have already been around the maze a time or two or three.

Surely by the end of season six, they'll all be playing on a even field..??

#80. Posted by: Mizzed at February 26, 2009 10:47 AM

Sorry if this has been answered, but could someone please tell me what the significance of Jack not reading Locke's letter right away has to do with anything? I keep seeing things written about why he didn't read it before he got on Ajira, but what difference would that make? Would he not have gone?

#81. Posted by: Christina at February 26, 2009 10:50 AM

Did anyone else notice that the flight attendant WAS wearing a scarf? Sun most def was not...

#82. Posted by: EKO EKo Eko eko at February 26, 2009 11:01 AM

Good Lord reading all these posts sometimes makes me think I was watching a different show. This is why I read this blog (other than Mac's outstanding recaps - little brown-nosing for my editor there)...to catctall those bits that I missed.

Holy Landing Strip, Batman!

Caesar is looming large on the horizon. What/who he's related to is gonna be big. He ain't just a red-shirt/meat-sock. Nice to find a sawed-off shotgun when you need one.

Locke's landing in the Tunisian desert and getting rescued by Tunisian Sand People was straight out of Star Wars right down to the jibber-jabber and cowls.

One of the best lines was between Locke and Widmore...

Locke: How do I know I can trust YOU?
Widmore: I haven't tried to kill you.

Got more, but have to read the posts that posted while I was posting.

#83. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 26, 2009 11:02 AM

I don't think anyone hypothesized this yet, but I am thinking, after last night's episode, that the new plane crash survivors are working for Ben. He acted unconcerned on the flight about their survival or death, but he really knew they would be fine and could carry out the rest of his plan. Which, according to Walt, is going to involve hurting John (in case Ben killing him didn't do the job). Caesar was obviously looking for something specific in the Hydra office (map, gun) that Ben probably left for him. I can't answer where Ben is at this point, but his "people" are in place.

#84. Posted by: Ally at February 26, 2009 11:06 AM

@81/Christina: As we now know Jack felt guilty or responsible for Locke's 'suicide'. He probably thought Locke was going to blame him even more after his "you are not special" speech so he put off reading the note.

#85. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 26, 2009 11:07 AM

@ 84: "I can't answer where Ben is at this point"

I think he is passed out on a cot, nestled in with the other injured from the 316 crash.

#86. Posted by: EKO EKo Eko eko at February 26, 2009 11:10 AM

@80: Mizzed - D@mn nice consolidation of the storyline.

@83: ransomjackson - That snippet of conversation between Locke and Widmore - How much of a premonition was THAT one!? Phew!

#87. Posted by: LostedIt at February 26, 2009 11:15 AM

I believe that Caeser found the map that Ben had before. I'll have to re-watch the epi and some dvd's...

#88. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at February 26, 2009 11:15 AM

***** SPOILERS *****
(possibly)
One of the things stipulated about the plane flight was that everything had to be as close to the previous flight as before.

I think that Kate is pregnant.

We did see Jack and Kate do it, and there was a pregnant girl on the flight before.

#89. Posted by: $C at February 26, 2009 11:16 AM

Did anybody else notice Helen's date of death being April 8th (4/8).. Oh those tricky producers not letting us forget about our friendly numbers...

#90. Posted by: Fishface at February 26, 2009 11:17 AM

@51 Steve: "I agree that once Ben heard Hawking's name, he didn't need Locke anymore. But why did hearing about Jin being alive cause such a bug-eye response?"

I believe Ben's response is due to the fact that he now knows how he will be able to get to Sun, and get her to come back with him. Remember, he has been keeping tabs on all of the Oceanic 6, so I'm sure he is well aware that she has been to see Widmore, and is out for vengeance over the loss of Jin. If he can prove to her Jin is alive, which he can now that he has Jin's ring, taken from Locke, Sun will surely give up on getting her revenge and go back to the island, which is exactly what did happen!

#91. Posted by: Stocky at February 26, 2009 11:18 AM

#5 @The Other Other

"Did anyone else think of Luke Skywalker when Locke was sitting on the beach with the blanket over his head?"

I was really hoping Locke would say, "You will bring Captain Solo and the wookie to me."

As to the suicide vs murder of Locke: I'm not so sure it would have made a difference whether Locke had killed himself. The island didn't let people die if they had unfinished business. But in this case the island NEEDED Locke to die. So I can't imagine that the island would care about the manner of death as long as it succeeded in getting the desired result. That said, it would be cool if Ben, by murdering Locke, has set up his own downfall by giving the island the sacrifice it craves.

#92. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 26, 2009 11:21 AM

That post button is tricky! No, I am not trying to 'win' most posts!

@Prosecutor67: If Penny was born on the island was she with the Others or the Hostiles? Wouldn't it make more sense to believe that Widmore was leading the Hostiles? Maybe he sent Penny's mother (Ellie?) off the island to keep them safe. Is that why Faraday told Ellie that she "looked just like her"?

@69/Shikotee: I don't think Walt believed Locke when he said that Michael was OK and on the island. That's when he went to see Hurley and try to find out the truth. Hurley told him a better story that they were protecting the people on the island. Is his step-father paying for the private school and airplane tickets?

#93. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 26, 2009 11:22 AM

@79 @31/Plain Simple: Caesar got a sawed-off shotgun on board? If so he is either a law officer or can bribe people. Why did he hide it from Ilana? And weren't they searching Faraday's lab? Why did he have a shotgun?

PiecesofArzt, Caesar found the sawed-off shotgun under a bed in the Hydra station. Of course he stashed it; useful things, shotguns.

I believe that Locke was killed dead, dead, dead, by Ben, but I also think Ben did it not to get rid of Locke but to fulfill a larger plan. The "funeral home" Locke ended up in was a very shabby one, and I think he either wasn't embalmed or had a long wait for his Ajira flight, hence the need to store him under refrigeration.

Okay. My big question, and the question the entire series seems to be hingin on, is: what is the big deal about being the leader of that island anyway?????

#94. Posted by: Glostover at February 26, 2009 11:23 AM

@94/Glostover: I realized that after reading some posts. Thanks! :)

#95. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 26, 2009 11:32 AM

Why did the island want Locke dead? Why couldn't he just come back with everyone else alive? Alpert said "you wil have to die" why?

#96. Posted by: Renee at February 26, 2009 11:32 AM

think that when ben found out that jin was alive,he now had a way to get sun back to the island.
also said "gonna miss you john" when he left the appt.

#97. Posted by: mplax at February 26, 2009 11:47 AM

Aren't the "Hostiles" and the "Others" the same? We had the Dharma people "ie volcanoe teacher" and they called Richard Alpert's group the "Hostiles". Ben became leader of that group (I don't know where Richard was, he wasn't in Otherton was he?) and the 815ers called that group the "Others". Same group, right?

#98. Posted by: Rudy at February 26, 2009 11:54 AM

@69 - Is anyone aware of specific circumstances where Widmore has lied?

How about when he kept Desmond's letters from Penny...

#99. Posted by: theoldred at February 26, 2009 12:00 PM

When I heard Locke tell Abaddon to take him to Santo Domingo, D.R. I thought he was going to met up w/ A Rods pusher.

On the last eps. of season 4 "There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 and 3". Walt visited Hurly at the institute along w/grandma. Walt told Hurly he had a visit from Jeremy Bentham. WTH? Is this what motivated Hurly to catch the 316 flight? I'm not sure on the timeline, but this info. has me a little confused.

#100. Posted by: mozart is not deaf at February 26, 2009 12:00 PM

@48
@54

Was thinking the same thing. Ben stopped Locke to suffocate him to the point of passing out. Suspended animation from that point on (the meat locker, etc).

Now I'm not so sure. A suspended animation (kinda of) theory flies in the face of the larger religious and supernatural metaphores. On to the rewatch.

#101. Posted by: IslandHopper at February 26, 2009 12:01 PM

@92/Alex (Not Rousseau):

"As to the suicide vs murder of Locke: I'm not so sure it would have made a difference whether Locke had killed himself. The island didn't let people die if they had unfinished business. But in this case the island NEEDED Locke to die. So I can't imagine that the island would care about the manner of death as long as it succeeded in getting the desired result."

I don't think so. The key characters are destined to walk their path- they have no escape hatch. In Lost terms, committing suicide would be the ultimate act of free will, the ultimate game ender.

Repeatedly we have been shown that whenever characters who have not completed their path have tried to escape- either be running or attempting to kill themselves, the universe/Island/God/whatever has intervened.

Looked at this way, Ben's killing of John can be seen as a necessary event in a predetermined chain of events, rather than the act of a manipulative, cold-blooded killer (although both things may be true).

@45/maryann: "Is Locke the Savior and all the survivors his disciples?"

I think Doc Jensen and other commentators have gone a little overboard on the Christ-like symbolism, because it is not consistent with Lost's long-term usage of ancient faith-based symbolism.

Yes, there are Christ-like parallels, but almost all of the earliest religions- Sumerian, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, etc- had similiar concepts of the god who dies and is resurrected as part of the essential life cycle.

I think this is why D&C interpreted the hieroglyphics in the FDW chamber as Egyptian symbols for resurrection.

A lot of this year's season is revolving around faith- I'm sure there will be a lot of debate on this topic all year long.

#102. Posted by: Mizzed at February 26, 2009 12:06 PM

My instincts are shouting that Aaron is on the Island. Ben told Kate that he didn't belong to her. I thing Ben had something to do with that. I thing we will see Claire and Aaron at some point. Remember that Claire was never really killed, she just disappeared. Kate wont talk about it......ya something is up with that. Mark my text.

#103. Posted by: grapekat at February 26, 2009 12:11 PM

I never bought the idea of John's suicide. I thought Ben would kill John to con Sun into returning to the island (to negate John's promise to Jin.) However, last night's episode inferred that this was a convenient after-thought for Ben, because it was John's knowledge of Hawkings that made Ben snap to murder.

And speaking of making Ben snap to murder, it was Alpert who culled young Ben into a mass murderer who purged the entire Dharma islanders. Last week, Hawkings used the "past tense" to describe the Dharma Institute . . . which means that the Hostiles also purged the off-island DI folks in order to keep "their" island secret. Like I said last week, Hawkings had that sociopathic smirk.

I am beginning to sense multiple cons within a con. Hawking told Ben that all the O6 had to return to the island. This was Ben's passport back to the island and his leadership role. Widmore also told Locke the same thing. But Alpert told Locke the same thing, but with the condition that Locke had to die. Christian said the same, but Locke had to sacrifice himself (i.e. not return to the island). I think Alpert knows that dead Locke returning to the island will create a more powerful being, ghost Locke, on par with Christian. I don't think Ben realizes that; he has been conned into re-creating 815 crash including the proxy for Christian. I also think that Christian did not expect Locke to return to the island, either dead or alive.

#104. Posted by: welh at February 26, 2009 12:17 PM

GRAA, Mac.

I thought it was fairly contrived that Locke - who knows that Ben lies - would suddenly abort his suicide just because Ben said that Jack bought a ticket to Sydney.

"Like Faraday's rat Eloise, they (the 06) cannot change the entrance or exit to their personal maze. Attempts at exercising free will temporarily leads to the illusion of freedom (Desmond, Michael, Oceanic 6, etc), but ultimately any path chosen but the right one leads only to a dead end. They are fated to rerun (or loop) their path as many times as necessary until they find their dharma- their righteous duty or virtuous path (per Wiki), whether by last week's "proxy", or with actual Desmond-style do-overs."
- 80. Posted by: Mizzed

Well-said; I agree. But I still wonder: why only these particular people (the 06)?? As always, more questions than answers.

#105. Posted by: lovelost at February 26, 2009 12:17 PM

@98/Rudy: The Hostiles attacked the original Others when Ben was a kid. After they wiped them out, with Ben's help, they became the modern-day Others.

#106. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 26, 2009 12:19 PM

@92 Alex (Not Rousseau):

"As to the suicide vs murder of Locke: I'm not so sure it would have made a difference whether Locke had killed himself. The island didn't let people die if they had unfinished business. But in this case the island NEEDED Locke to die."

I agree. The island knew that what John would not be able to succeed in doing in life, he would accomplish in death. But if you think about it, Locke's death truly did only one thing to get them back to the island -- it transferred that responsibility to Jack.

It seems that sometime after Locke saw Jack in the hospital, Jack started to believe Locke might be right. Did this start after he visited Hurley in the hospital (the first time or the second time)? Did it start when he saw his father in the lobby of the hospital? Something prompted him to start taking those flights to get back to the island, but this all happened before Jack learned of Locke's death. At this moment, Jack gives up all hope, and attempts to commit suicide, but is stopped (by the island?) at the last minute. Amazingly, this is EXACTLY what happens to Locke as well. However, whereas the island ultimately needs Locke to die to get them back (so Ben kills him), it needs Jack to live (and Ben helps him). It DOES appear that ultimately Ben IS doing the work of the island, even though his actions seem to be, in his mind, for his own benefit.

#107. Posted by: Stocky at February 26, 2009 12:23 PM

@106

Hostiles and Others = same thing. DHARMA called them hostiles, 815ers called them others, Widmore called them HIS people.

Always the same people, just different names.

NAMASTE

#108. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at February 26, 2009 12:24 PM

Wow great ideas. Here are some of mine.

I think the airplane Foom-- Foomed --- whatever, took Jack Hurly & Kate (and Sayid and Sun) from the plane to the 70's where Jin and Sawyer & others are as that is where they were always supposed to be—- with that group so the Island/Time has now been fixed/ corrected. But now Stuck there in the 70s.

Whitmore’s temperament in 1954 showed him to be someone who does not cooperate well with others. He gained some allies as they found Island secrets, separated from Richard’s group (soon to be miss-called Hostiles), discovered a way/ left the island (with Mrs. Hawking--Eloise). Took some of its “magic,” became rich in the real world, created Dharma to find/exploit other Island secrets, especially the one of eternal life. Richard, leader of the Hostiles, is guided by the only real “good guy,” Jacob, is always searching for the ONE who will save the island. He thinks it’s Ben for many years. Maybe after they conducted the Purge, Ben found the way to make it so no one could find the island for 20 years, thus he gains the leadership, kept it through manipulation and now of course wanting that power back doing anything he can to get it.

Now recently possible to find the island with the Hatch blown. That’s why Ben went there alone in season 2 as he knew it was important for the numbers to be punched in—maybe he’s the only one who new/ cared about that station, maybe he was there when it was turned on 20 years ago to hide the island— he wanted those in there to have guns, stay in there on fear of contamination, he recreuited new people for it---- so keeping the real “good guys” out of it.

Sin & Co. had stopped jumping in time when Locke fixed the FDW and have been there those three years at first with the Hostiles (as now they would be recognized special since Richard saw them disappear in 1954), gradually infiltrating Dharma & maybe THEY are the forerunners of the Purge. They learn what Dharma is really doing (exploiting the island’s resources and doing scientific “experiments” with the talented and gifted Hostiles, killing/ torturing/ brainwashing people (Smokey)). Plus, of course Daniel is trying to figure a way back home through time. Definitely Whitmore/Dharma had a big reason to do experiments—to find the key to eternal life—do ANYTHING to get it. Easy to get great scientists there doing all kinds of cool stuff.

So, I’m thinking now that since we know some who are “called/ brought to the island” are/ become special (815ers, maybe some new 316ers, AND Black Rock(ers)---- which includes Richard, and others from the past, ancient Greeks with 4 toes, etc, where some were given the gift of eternal life.) Ben’s gift was seeing a few ghosts, not eternal life, not a true hero. Ben lost his true love, but then became obsessed with power, trying to “make” a series of women love him & obsessed with having his offspring take over for him someday, of course taking one from Miss Frenchie when he had the chance.

Remember, the 316 plane crashed in the PRESENT on the Hydra station (2nd Island) as it was only a few years back that a “runway” was being built there. Locke and Ben are in the present on the island. I’m sure will try to kill Locke soon, maybe trap him somewhere in Time/ bouncing in time in ghost form? Thus making Locke the eternal Jacob in the 1st place. The plane’s captain knows where they are and after finding a canoe went to see if he can find those left behind.

So, next season, it must be Locke to be the leader of the Others. We will get their history which will include The Ancients, and the Black Rock. So, I think Locke is Jacob, trapped somewhere in time for hundreds/ thousands of years. . . poor Locke must suffer much, much longer.

So something has to happen for the ones stuck in the 70s to return----- Or, what if they stayed there all that time and Lock will find them 40 years older and still with the Others after all. Knowing what “list” is needed—knowing who MUST be / stay on the island? Sounds too silly.

So that’s my current take. What does everyone think?

#109. Posted by: Bus Said at February 26, 2009 12:29 PM

#102 @Mizzed

Excellently said. You got me convinced! I was thinking that Locke's suicide was him trying to fulfill his destiny, not run from it. I hadn't taken into account his mental state at that moment. Locke was devastated, thinking he was a failure.

Which leads to #105 @lovelost
"I thought it was fairly contrived that Locke - who knows that Ben lies - would suddenly abort his suicide just because Ben said that Jack bought a ticket to Sydney."

I don't find it contrived that a master manipulator like Ben could help Locke change his mind. Locke was in an extremely vulnerable spot. Ben knows this and pushes all the right buttons, getting Locke to do what Ben wants him to do.

#110. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 26, 2009 12:29 PM

Have started my re-watch, and will drop my comments perpetually. I'll then catch up on the comments I am missing!

Re-watch note 1:

I really liked how this episode begins.
We were all curious about who the condolence guy (aka Caesar) was, and we begin with him. At first I thought it bight be a return to the use of back-stories, but he is in fact ransacking an office from Hydra Island.

When he cracks the filing cabinet, did anyone catch the paper he looks at after the map? I'd like to hear the science buffs chime in on this!

It clearly is related to the time travel aspect of things. Various circles are connected with lines, that are labeled "Real Time", "Imaginary Time", "Space Time", "Imaginary Space", "Imaginary Time", "Event A", "Event B", "Event C", and all sorts of other equations.

It is interesting to note that the sawed off shotgun is attached to the bottom of a desk, which is facing a door. The idea of course being that whoever sat at that desk, would be able to shoot someone who entered through the doors.

As this is the world of Lost, where no one talks and everyone lies, Caesar naturally lies about finding the loaded sawed off shotgun.

She tells him about how Roxanne was scouting south of the crash site, and she found a man in a suit, standing in the water.

And yeah - it totally was Jedi Locke sitting by the fire.

Seeing the crashed plane, the bonfire, the extras trying to stay warm - total deja vu to season 1, which felt - pretty cool!

#111. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 12:31 PM

i love the holla back in this ep to our first sighting of Christian Sheppard. when jack first saw him, he was standing in the water, dressed in a suit. as told by ilana, this is the same way they first saw Locke.

i also personally believe that there's some connection btwn Christian Sheppard and Widmore. Perhaps Christian was on the island previously as well??

#112. Posted by: b mar at February 26, 2009 12:32 PM

"there is a sign behind them that reads (in Spanish) "Escape the island""

37. Posted by: Stocky

I saw that sign too, and to me it looked like it said "Island school". That made sense considering there was a nun in the scene and Sayid appeared to be doing some sort of charity work. He told Locke to come live there and "do some good". I believe he was trying to make up for all of the horrible things he did in his past.
_________________________________________

As we speculated last week, the plane clearly landed on Hydra. It seems that the "landing strip" was less than adequate because when Caesar and Ilana walked out onto the beach the plane was in the shot. It looked like the nose was partially on the sand. I am imagining some kind of long, drawn out crash landing a'la the Enterprise on the ST Generations movie.
________________________________________
"And it would also indicate that Dharma appeared under Widmore's regime. That fits my sense of Dharma/Widmore being on the same side."

49. Posted by: undaunted

Clearly... The file that Widmore handed to Locke had the Dharma logo on the cover.

#113. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 26, 2009 12:50 PM

@45/maryann

You are right - also didn't they say they had 72 hours to get back to the island. 72 hours = 3 days. Christ was resurrected on the 3rd day.

Seems crazy to think they would go there - but there are a lot of biblical references going on. The church - doubting Thomas, etc...

#114. Posted by: susiew at February 26, 2009 12:57 PM

@113. Posted by: Lost in ca:

Maybe you're right about that sign. As I wrote, my sister pointed it out to me. I, unfortunately, never learned Spanish, so I didn't know what it read. What you're saying does make sense though, so I guess I my sister was wrong about the sign...

#115. Posted by: Stocky at February 26, 2009 12:59 PM

I agree with Crispy Seaplanes @68--I think that both Widmore and Ben are trying to use the Oceanic 6 (and Locke) to regain power on the island, and that our Losties shouldn't trust *either* of them. If the Island wanted either of those guys running things in present time, they wouldn't have to work so hard to get back.

I also agree that it's the combination of Locke's two pieces of information that causes Ben to murder him. Ben believes, as does Locke, that if even one of the Oceanic 6 can be persuaded to return, the rest will follow. With the story of Jin's survival (and ring as proof), Ben now figures Sun is a gimme. Learning that Mrs. Hawking is involved lets Ben know that the Island is ready to let people in *right now*.

But I think we have been witness to the beginning of the unraveling of Ben's plan:
1) Locke told Widmore and Abbadon that he needed to die (according to Richard, and seconded by Christian), but he never told Ben! Ben doesn't realize he is fulfilling the greater plan by murdering Locke; I think Ben believes that having Locke's body is good enough to earn a return trip, and also he thinks he is removing his rival from the picture for good (again).
2) Ben doesn't realize that on the plane, Locke is Christian Shepherd's proxy--he thinks Locke represents himself. Mrs. Hawking told Jack that bit about needing something of his dad's in private--Ben is excluded from that discussion (and is clearly miffed about it on the plane). Ben never sees any of the stuff involving Christian's shoes.
3) And while I'm thinking about it--is it possible that Ben doesn't know about Christian Shepherd AT ALL? I mean, he probably knows the body was on the plane. But Jacob had stopped speaking to Ben even before our Losties crashed, and never appeared to him again. In this case, Locke's resurrection is going to come as a nasty surprise. HA!

I think this episode also clears up the source of the string of kinder, gentler hitmen that Sayid kept knocking off. Once Widmore learned that Abbadon and Locke were dead, and his world-wide surveillance network showed him that Ben was recruiting the Oceanic 6, he dispatched the tranq-dart squad to keep the Oceanic 6 out of Ben's clutches. Widmore would not have *hurt* them, because we now know that he also wants the Six to return. But he wants them to go back under *his* control, not Ben's.

#116. Posted by: marissa at February 26, 2009 1:07 PM

i think its interesting that the flight number is 316 just like john 3:16 in the bible which talks about being born again.

#117. Posted by: REDHOTRYAN at February 26, 2009 1:18 PM

I'm not sure it's healthy to spend as much time thinking about a weekly TV show....but frankly I don't care.
Here's my few observations/questions/thoughts from this week's episde:
1. Flight 3:16 -with John on it...John 3:16...gave his only son to save humanity. So who's the savior? John? Ben? The 06? Are they referencing a sacrifice that has already happened, or is it a sign that all will pay a price? Or could Aaron be the savior and somehow on board?
2. Anyone notice the picture Hurley was drawing when Ben arrived at the institution? It was a desert scene- reminded me of the rabbit hole....how would Hurley know about that? Why would he be drawing a desert scene in the first place?
3. Thought on why Ben killed John when he did....he originally needed John to believe his was special so that he would continue working towards getting the 06 back....Ben didn't have anything to barter with and the 06 wouldn't follow him anywhere without a little deception on his part. So, John gave him his bargaining chip...Jin's alive. John said that all he had to do was convince ONE to return and the rest would follow. Now Ben had what he needed to get one of the 06 to do what he wanted....THEN John tells him Eloise's location. That's how he starts the sentence, Hawking is here, in this town. Ben knew that John was with Widmore who knew how to find Hawking....now Ben had what he needed from John, which freed him up to kill him.
Last thought....I read a post somewhere that said that John was loyal to Ben because Ben was the only person in his life that hadn't abandonned him (Helen, parents)-Ben stayed with John in the hatch when he was stuck in the door (those poor legs). Makes sense that Ben would easily win John's loyalty...so it adds to the plot that Ben killed him. Poor John.

#118. Posted by: Lostfansquared at February 26, 2009 1:21 PM

@65 posted by lost2theworld

What does Penny Widmore have to do with all of this?

Who does Ben kill at the docks before joining up with the 6 to return to the island? Ben is a killing machine. He kills Penelope to settle his unfinished business with Widmore.

Locke is the new manipulator and knew he needed to use Ben to get back. He needs him back on the island because it was Locke that was supposed to move the lever.

#119. Posted by: TruRuan at February 26, 2009 1:22 PM

@104: welh - Originally when I started writing this I was about to agree with you, and it sounded brilliant - the war that is supposedly about to start would pit Christian and his people against Locke and his people. The problem is, I realized, that Christian not only told Locke to turn the FDW but also told Locke that everyone needed to come back (someone correct me if my memory is failing me on this one). So it would appear that Christian is on Locke's side, whatever side that is.

That being said, I'm completely confused at this point (good job D&C!) as to whether Ben, Widmore, even Eleanor, is on the good side or the bad side. It appears Jack's statement that he (Jack) is nothing and was never meant to be a leader to Locke was put in there to clear up his state of mind to us. Once Jack gets back to the island once could presume that he gets back to being the leader he was previously. As for Locke, he may be crucial to the show and the island, but I've said before I think he's being used as a pawn, even if he's technically the king on a proverbial a chess table. He has no idea whom/what to align himself to. He's constantly trying to save the island or the people left behind or something, and he's as often on the wrong side of the equation as he is on the right side. So depending on who/what pushes him in a particular direction last he goes that way if he's (currently) convinced it's the way he was meant to go. The whole philosphical/mental/religious quest he's constantly on to find meaning and direction has left him used and reused and then used again, much as a pawn. Sacrifice, in this case, could just as easily be a pawn on a chess table as a religious representation from the bible.

@114: susiew - Actually, it was 70 hours, not 72 but I do get your point. At the same time, I think this could be a matter of "If you look long and hard enough you'll find a connection to something" than an actual connection. That being said, the fact that Locke was found standing in water just as Jack found Christian standing in water is simply a recreation of the original circumstances. Just as Jack woke up in the woods in relatively the same place and position as the first time, since Locke came back the island as a proxy for Christian he would have appeared in relatively the same circumstances as Christian whether he knew the original circumstances or not (he didn't know, obviously).

I hope we get to watch a scene of the plane post-Losties Fooming out and what caused them to subsequently come down and how it was that Lapidus managed to get the thing down in one piece.

#120. Posted by: LostedIt at February 26, 2009 1:25 PM

@117: REDHOTRYAN - somewhere out there Davidrh is screaming AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!

#121. Posted by: LostedIt at February 26, 2009 1:28 PM

What are the headlines in the states gonna be when they realize the oceanic 6 took a flight together and are missing again??? LOL!!

#122. Posted by: Double J at February 26, 2009 1:38 PM

@77 shikotee pointed out:

>@73. Posted by: Aubrey
re: Jack and the plane ticket

>Of course Jack didn't buy a plane ticket. Why would he? He can fly for free whenever he wants, lol!

But only on Oceanic - they're the ones that gave the O-6 the "Golden Pass" thingee.

#123. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 26, 2009 1:39 PM

i am thinking that at some point Walt is going to return to the island, I just don't know how. In the earlier episodes(can't remember which season) everyone was seeing a much "older" walt that would appear and vanish and talk backwards. Time warps possibly? or maybe just smokey i don't know. The other hard part is figuring out who is telling the 100% truth and who is just saying statements but not giving the entire answers about why it is necessary for locke's return. My brain hurts now.

#124. Posted by: Randy at February 26, 2009 1:43 PM

@117: REDHOTRYAN - somewhere out there Davidrh is screaming AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!
121. Posted by: LostedIt

You beat to it!

(I don't hold the international copyright so ALL feel free to use it . . . )

#125. Posted by: davidrh at February 26, 2009 1:45 PM

@122: Double J - Dang tootin!

I think I said last week (?) that there's no way the plane crashed because if it did people could look at the manifest and, yes, lookee here the 06(5) are right here on a plane together again! Now that this is what actually happened, one must presume this to be some kind of game-changer or even game-ruiner for everyone involved. There's no way the entire world would hear about this happening yet again and not turn it into the biggest investigation ever! At the very least, it would posit the O6 as terrorists or something similar. On the extreme perhaps the Dharma initiative, Widmore, the island, everything gets exposed. Of course we know that in all likelihood that doesn't happen but it does create quite a conundrum for D&C. How do they allow this to just go unanswered? I suppose they must have one up their sleeves but I'm unable to even think of a way to unravel this tangled web.

#126. Posted by: LostedIt at February 26, 2009 1:48 PM

Why is everyone so compassionfull for Lock? The guy murdered Naomi in the back ?!!!

#127. Posted by: Tfou at February 26, 2009 1:58 PM

→ 122. Posted by: Double J

Great point DJ! Be fun to see them make reference to that in a (soon) future episode

Perhaps "O6 in seclusion for new ABC Reality Series".

#128. Posted by: IslandHopper at February 26, 2009 1:59 PM

Did anyone think the "habitat for humanity" looking village Sayid was working on resembled the one Locke was a part of a couple of seasons ago? Didn't Sayid say something to the effect of "you can come back here any time"? Or am I hallucinating????

#129. Posted by: PJinParadise at February 26, 2009 2:03 PM

I have a theory on why Ben murdered Locke, well at least I do at the moment.

IF Ellie aka Sojer Girl is really Eloise Hawking, and, as a result of that, Ben knows she had a connection with Widmore from the island (WE know she has a connection with him, since he gave her contact info to Desmond), and

IF Ben exiled her from the island as well as Widmore, and

IF Ben knows of the Lamp Post station and Mrs. Hawking's island-finding abilities

THEN, when Locke mentions that Widmore gave him Mrs. Hawking's name, Ben quickly realizes that Widmore has turned Locke against him and so he has to kill Locke to prevent Widmore from using Locke to get back to the island or to prevent Widmore from pulling Locke's strings once he returns to the island.

#130. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 26, 2009 2:04 PM

Great review for once Mac! (note sarcasm...)

I think it's pretty late in the Lost game to bring another entire group of plane crashies to the (adjoining) island. So now they all have to be accounted for and try to get rescued and still have to learn what the island really is... So far it seems that only 2 of them will become main Lost players, but still.

It would've been just fine for me if the island had zapped the O5 + or - Ben off the plane and let Frank continue flying on his merry way toward Guam. It would've been really funny too if that happened and Ben realized he's not going to get to go back afterall.

Not really diggin' this whole Locke is back to life thing. He's certainly not an apparition like Dr. Daddy - eating the pappya was a way for the writers to cement that fact. Plus, Dr. Daddy KNOWS he's dead or changed or whatever, but John is very confused about how he is alive again.

#131. Posted by: JoePike at February 26, 2009 2:05 PM

I thought this ep did a really good job of answering some questions. And raising new ones too of course.

I think the Abba-dabba-don storyline is essentially finished. He worked for Widmore, delivered Locke to and fro, and got whacked. Unless the actor's other show tanks, then he'll be resurrected too I s'pose.

Helen's brain aneurysm? Do I detect Ben's handiwork there?

And Walt's storyline is likely done as well.

Walt: "Have you seen my father?"
Locke: "Last I knew he was on a freighter near the island..."

Course, Michael's got a new show coming out soon too.

Does anybody know if Caesar and whats'er-face have stolen any diamonds lately? Hi, let me introduce you to my little eight-legged friend...

Ben lying unconscious at Locke's "disposal"...What will Johnny do with him? Better gag him right quick before he starts bending Caesar's ear.

With all of Ben's chicanery, I couldn't help but compare him to Satan in the Garden of Eden.

How does Locke "walk" out of a hospital after blatantly causing a multi-car accident? I s'pose he could've been arrested/charged/arraigned/booked/ jailed/bonded and they just didn't show it, but seems like there should've been something legal going on there.

#132. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 26, 2009 2:08 PM

Great idea about the canoe shootings, Ajira Locke and island flashy Locke looking like a body double would bring that chase on. Great job.

With all the references that are skimming along "actual" bible happenings, what do you think about Ben and Widmore being a representation of the struggle between Christian and Muslim religions. I'm rusty on my religion but isn't the major difference that they follow different prophets, with the intended path towards God. So is Locke supposed to be a reincarnation/Jesus representation for the two sides "holy war" to blindly fight for? I'm kind of all over the place with this, but does anybody get what I'm trying to say with this...

#133. Posted by: CC_Boston at February 26, 2009 2:09 PM

Re-watch Notes 2:

After the first commercial break, the first shot is the next morning on Hydra isle, focusing on a pile of clothing on the beach (Locke's funeral jacket, tie, and Christian's shoes), with the ocean and main island in the background. The camera then pans to Locke, standing by the water, getting his feet wet by the waves, staring at the main island.

The message here for us is - this is indeed the man who was inside that coffin!

Ilana (Sayid's captor) introduced herself to Locke, and gives him a mango.

The boats were found, there used to be 3, but the pilot and some woman took one in the middle of the night, without telling anyone, and just took off.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - Tasty Mango, especially if you have not eaten for several days!

Eventually, Locke reflects on turning the FDW, and flashing to Tunisia. We get to see the famous, eyes open, lying on ground motif. Like Ben previously, this type of travel seems to make you have to barf!

Locke can't move because of his injury, and notices the camera that is aimed at him. He pleads for help. He's lying there for some time, as day turn to night before the truck comes to get him. It is a long journey to the hospital, for when Locke is carried in, it is day once again.

We see Abannon is there watching behind a semi transparent drape, just before Locke is told to bite down on a stick. Locke passes out while they are treating his leg, and when he regains consciousness, it is dark, and Widmore is in the room.

The passage of time is required, so we can believe Widmore is contacted from where ever he is, so that he can travel to meet Locke.

Locke's injury is a compound fracture, and Widmore had a specialist reset it. Widmore relates how he first met Locke when he was 17 years old, and how "surprised" he is to see him looking exactly the same. Widmore asks how much time has passed since Locke met him, and Locke replies 4 days (I wonder if he is aware how much time has passed for him in Tunisia!!!).

When Locke asks about the camera, Widmore replies that it is the exit.
A look at the exact dialogue that follows is key:

Widmore - "I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the island, as he did with me. I was their leader".

Locke - "the Others?"

Widmore - "They're not the others to me. They're my people. We protected the island, peacefully, for more than 3 decades. But then - I was exiled - by him - just as you were.

Locke - "No - Ben wasn't even there when I left, he was already gone. I wasn't exiled, I chose to leave."

Wid - "Why would you do that John? (reflective pause) You've come to bring them back - the ones who left.

Locke - "No" (shakes head)

Wid - "I understand you lying to me - I do. But there's something you should know. All your friends who left the island - they've been back three years..."

Locke - "Three years?"

Wid - "They've gone back to their normal lives. And none of them has spoken a word of truth about where they were..."

(during this, he hands over London Daily Tribune newspaper dated January 14 2005 - headline "Oceanic Six - Survivors receive heroes welcome". Another story on top side of paper with pic is - "Sutton car crash causes major traffic headaches - Page 15" I wonder if this will be some sort of an easter egg? )

Locke - "I have to bring them back."

Wid - "And I'm going to do everything in my power to help you do that."

Locke - "Why?"

Wid - "Why...."

Locke - "Why would you help me?"

Wid - "Because there's a war coming John, and if you're not back on the island when that happens, the wrong side is going to win."

End Scene!

Quick quibble - we next see Locke inspecting his Canadian Passport. Jeremy Bentham, born Feb 15th, 1948, in New York. Issued Dec 12 2007, expiry date Dec 12 2017.

As a Canadian, I can assure you that there is no passport that is valid for 10 years! It is an annoying 5 year max! Sloppy....

#134. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 2:10 PM

I could be wrong, but where is everyone getting the notion that Charles Widmore told Locke to see Mrs. Hawking when he didn't?? It was Christian Shephard who told Locke to find Mrs. Hawking, right before he spun the magic wheel...

#135. Posted by: Stocky at February 26, 2009 2:14 PM

I'm horribly sorry to break the rules and post without reading everyone elses post, but Im at work and dont have time. Im SORRY!

So, if someone smarter than I has already mentioened this, sorry again.

But it looks like the "Ajirans" crashed on that smaller, secondary island that housed the bear cages etc. from Season 3. When Ben is eating that delicious-looking, oh-so-fruity mango on the beach, talking to Ilana, it looks like theyre gazing across the sea to a larger island...

BTW - why does Ilana look familiar? The actress is like a cross between Ugly Betty, the American Idol winner before Cook and Norah Jones...

Anyways, good episode. I wasnt all THAT surprised Ben killed Locke, hes tried to before after all. I am getting more and more intrigued by the Whos good, whos bad subplot going on here. Widmore seems almost OK, at least in this episode. And weird that HE claims to have been the leader of the others, In Jughead, he looks like a total jerk, and Alpert is clearly in control then/there. So... how did he become leader? Did he overthrow alpert, was then overthrown by Ben, who now seems to have been supplanted by Locke?? I get the feeling its ALPERT pulling all these strings... maybe hes the "bad" guy...

And it would make sense for all the Ajira survivors to have been planted by Widmore for his own purposes. Although, I dont know why he just wouldnt have gotten on the plane if he wanted to go back so bad. Clearly, he knew about Mrs. Hawking, and probably knew she could find her/his ways back to the island.

Is Farraday Hawking/Widmore's kooky, dharma-beer induced love child??

So, thats what I got. First post of this season, but I've been lurking... lurking...

xo
-chopkins

#136. Posted by: chopkins at February 26, 2009 2:18 PM

My passport is for 10 years.

If all of the O6 "foomed". Why wouldn't Sun (and shed be with the pilot)?

#137. Posted by: youknowwho at February 26, 2009 2:27 PM

i just want to hint about this lost site: http://www.spotep.com/#serieid=lost

#138. Posted by: Stephen G at February 26, 2009 2:27 PM

@135 Posted by: Stocky.
Oh right, my bad. It was Christian, not Widmore, who referred Locke to Mrs. Hawking. But I stand by my theory (for now). If Locke is going to see Mrs. H and he's working with Widmore, that is somehow very bad news for Ben.

@Mozart 100. Are you asking why Walt refers to Locke as Bentham when he visits Hurley at Santa Rosa but Locke didn't use that name with Walt on the street in NYC (right?). I was wondering the same thing.

@lostfansquared 118
Hurley was drawing an Egyptian Sphinx. Another Egyptian references on the show.

Ajira – I think I heard that this is the Hindi word for Island. Can someone confirm?

Did anyone notice the line "God help us all" in the commercial for the Watchmen movie?

So much posting already and so serious.

@babush 66
Are you thinking the shepherds were Jack and Christian?

Why did the shepherds cross the street? Anyone?

#139. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 26, 2009 2:28 PM

@135 stocky
"I could be wrong, but where is everyone getting the notion that Charles Widmore told Locke to see Mrs. Hawking when he didn't?? It was Christian Shephard who told Locke to find Mrs. Hawking, right before he spun the magic wheel..."

You are absolutely right. In an earlier post (#4) I mentioned that Widmore told Locke to find Eloise. Mea Culpa. Christian told Locke about her. Widmore told Des.

#140. Posted by: Alex (Not Rousseau) at February 26, 2009 2:30 PM

Rewatch note #3:

While discussing the name Jeremy Bentham, I was amused that Widmore says "You're parents had a sense of humour when they named you - so why can't I?"

You'd think Widmore would know a little more about Locke's backstory. His father was not around to name him!

Widmore gives Locke money, international cel phone (press "23" to reach Widmore!), and folder with whereabouts info on O6.

Locke - "You've been watching them?"

Widmore - "I'm deeply invested in the future of the island John - so yes - I've been watching them! (pause) I wouldn't mention that I'm involved in this. I can't imagine what they think of me, having listened to Benjamin's lies..."

Locke - "How do I know that you're not the one whose lying?"

Widmore - "I haven't tried to kill you. Can you say the same for him? (pause) You still don't trust me."

Locke - "You sent a team of killers and boatload of C4 to the island... that doesn't exactly scream trust!"

Wid - "I needed Linus removed - So it could be your time."

"Right".

Wid - "The island needs you John. It has for a long time.

Locke - "What makes you think that I'm so special?"

Wid - "Because you are..."

(Abannon arrives with vehicle)

Locke them reveals that Richard told him that he would have to die, in order to bring them back. Widmore states that he does not know why he said that, but that he will not let that happen.

(sigh) Sloppy Production?
When we first see Sayid in the Dominican Republic, he is working on a roof. It is the EXACT same roof that he is working on that is photographed and presented to Locke in the previous scene. I think this is more production error than Widmore photographing from the future!

#141. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 2:38 PM

Davidrh, these are for you...

ANTI - Anyone Notice The Island?

DWMO - Dude, Where's My Outrigger?

#142. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 26, 2009 2:42 PM

John Locke cannot commit suicide..the island won't let him...same as when Michael tried to end it...the island wouldn't allow it.

Question remains tho' - If Ben knows this little fact (and he does know it) why didn't he just tell John that his suicide attempt was bound to fail?

Len

#143. Posted by: Len at February 26, 2009 2:43 PM

WOW! Lot's of fun stuff to sift through.

1) Since it's been mentioned about the time looping, I had thought there were multiple loops going on simultaneously -- an inner loop and an outer loop. Now I wonder if there are even more than two. FDW has been turned a minimum of three times. Once by Ben, once by Locke, and now we are told once by Widmore himself. I think he mentioned that Ben tricked him into turning it. Could each of these turnings have set of different loops of time displacement? I think the final one will be a turning by Richard Alpert. His FOOMing led him to find John after he was shot by Ethan, how else could he have done so unless he had advance knowledge that John would indeed be shot in the leg and by Ethan. Also, how else would the Others have known to construct a runway unless at least one of them knew it would be needed for ...say... a crash landing of an Ajira plane that dead Locke would be on?

2) I think Ben honestly believed that he could not get back to the island since he turned the FDW (since Widmore had never set foot back on the island -- not that we know of at least), but John's revelations to him reveal to him not only that he can get back, but that Mrs. Hawking knows how to do this. I think he had known of Hawking and may even have been working for/with her for some time before the reveal that she was Farraday's mum.

3) There is much in the way of duplicity and manipulation. I think Widmore and Hawking are definitely in cahoots and have been manipulating Ben. Ben seemed genuinely surprised when he discovered that Eloise was Farraday's mother.

4) Do not underestimate the power of the island. Throughout literature, settings have been of such impact that they have taken on aspects of being characters unto themselves. In LOST, the island displays characteristics of this in how it affects Michael, Jack, and Locke in thwarting their attempts at suicide. Richard had told John he would have to die. When Locke told him of that, Christian said to Locke that was why it is called sacrifice.

I think the island will demand a sacrifice, and that ultimately that sacrifice will be none other than...BEN.

5) I am convinced Sayid FOOMed, leaving Ilana freaked out. When Cesar mentions seeing the same thing happen with Hurley, she decides to accept him as their "leader" through this shared experience, but she is clearly suspicious of him regardless.

6) I'm glad they tied in Walt. I don't think his storyline is done at all. In fact, I think it will be more alive than ever (possibly not addressed until next season though). He had dreams of Locke. this shows that he still has his abilities. Plus, a three year time frame can offset a great deal of teenage growth spurts. Walt is definitely a prophet, as the foreshadowing quality of his dreams have already indicated. Joseph had talent with dreams and dream interpretation. I think this is definitely more than coincidence as a tie to the Egyptian mythos...Joseph was the son of Jacob. Joseph interpreted dreams for the Pharoah in Egypt. This ultimately led to the willing welcome of the twelve tribes of Israel into Egypt until of course generations later, the new Pharoah was a tyrant and Charleston Heston led the Exodus from Egypt (not sure if this was when he saw the head of the Statue of Liberty on the the sand near the edge of the water ;) )

#144. Posted by: Gumbo at February 26, 2009 2:49 PM

another good point about Locke's non-suicide...i believe suicide is "frowned" upon in Christianity, i.e. you'd go to hell. So when Ben heard that Locke was getting the band back together and going to Ms Hawking, he saw the signs of what was taking place (prophecies) and realized that YES Locke did have to die. But if Locke killed himself it wouldn't work, so Ben had to make sure his death was not a suicide, thus the murder.

#145. Posted by: CC_Boston at February 26, 2009 3:14 PM

1. Did you guys hear Widmore say, "god help us."?

2. The picture Hugo was drawing was of the Sphinx and pyramids in Egypt...right?

3. If Jack, Kate, Hugo, etc. were FOOMED out of the plane, then why wasn't Locke FOOMED too? he was part of the original 815 flight and should be traveling with Sawyer, Juliet, et. al. just like he was prior to leaving the island. why is he stuck with the 316ers now? Ben didn't FOOM b/c he's an Other... does this mean that Locke is officially an Other? hm, but Juliette is an Other and she is FOOMing with the 815ers...explain this to me pleeeeeze!

4. When exactly did the whole "women who get pregnant on the island die" thing start? The answer to that would help us establish if Penny was born on the island or not.

#146. Posted by: Skipper at February 26, 2009 3:19 PM

INCOMING FODDER PROMOTION ...

I hope you don't mind the self-serving nature of this comment, but I know a handful of Lost Blog regulars are somewhat interested in other happenings within the Fodder Network. (If you couldn't care less, please disregard this note.)

Today we launched TechFodder (www.techfodder.com). It's a gadget/electronics blog (because the world *really* needed another one of those). Myself and co-editor Rachel Cericola (also editor of TV Fodder) have both been involved in the tech world for a long time, so we figured we'd take a shot on our own tech-centric site.

It's all very new and we don't have much there, but we'll be tending the fires of TechFodder and I invite everyone to swing by.

And with that this COMMERCIAL MESSAGE COMES TO A CONCLUSION.

Thanks! -- mac

#147. Posted by: mac at February 26, 2009 3:24 PM

I think Ben did something that the island frowned upon. Richard told him he was the leader, but after a few years Richard and the island realized they were wrong. So the island did somethig about it and therefore babies can't be born. I think Annie died while pregnant, which is why Ben stole Alex. Then Ben got cancer, not supposed to happen. The island was trying to get rid of him.

Locke was always supposed to be the leader, he should have picked the compass when he was little, so the island "course corrected" and brought John to the island when the island realized Ben wasn't it.

Ben = Bad, jury is still out on Widmore.

Don't know why the others got picked to be on that plane, haven't figured out their purpose yet.

#148. Posted by: Rudy at February 26, 2009 3:29 PM

Lost I think is greatest show, I rreally like with many good peopel, and beutiful peopel who nice to other, and peopel who do bad things and wit the mistery, I love!

I like all peopel on this website too, with knowing so much about lost. and look for friends to talk long about John Locke and Ben and Aaron and so many things. also meet me, i'm 21, and nice. Mail asavamenstadt@live.

Please also tell me why is ben so bad, is maybe he meeted with smokey the monster?

#149. Posted by: Lostisbest at February 26, 2009 3:30 PM

@ 139. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
Why did the shepherds cross the street? Anyone?

to get to the other side?

#150. Posted by: Steve at February 26, 2009 3:36 PM

Rewatch notes #4:

Need to speed this up, lol!

Poor Sayid! Like building shelter for the poor will make up for all the blood you have spilled! Sayid cautions Locke about manipulation, talks about his loss, and wonders if he wants to go back simply because he has nowhere else to go. The seed of doubt has been planted!

Next we go to New York, where Locke takes Abannon up on his offer to locate someone from his past - Helen. He meets Walt leaving school. Walt is not surprised to see him, because of his dreams - Locke, on the island, wearing a suit, surrounded by people who want to hurt him. Locke shakes this off as "just dreams".

Walt asks about his dad, whom he believes is searching for the island, and Locke mentions that he heard he was on the freighter.

Walt asks - "So why'd you come to see me?" (long pause)

"I just wanted to make sure you're OK!"

Walt responds that he's good, and says he has to go. Abannon helps Locke into the car, and throws pot shots at Locke for not recruiting Walt. Across the street, we see that a very sharply dressed (like an Economist) and well styled (hair) Benjamin Linus has been watching, with a very surly look to his face!

Was this a fluke, or had Ben been stalking Walt waiting for Locke to show?

Next is various visits in California. All of this takes place on the same day, as both Locke and Abannon wear the same clothing throughout their visits.

First, we are off to Santa Rosa, where we see Hugo drawing the Sphinx. Super funny that he assumes this is a ghost!
Hugo explains some things, but freaks when he sees Abannon, and refuses to have anything to do with Locke. Finally, Abannon confronts Locke about helping him as an orderly, and sending Locke on the walkabout.

Next, we go to Los Angeles, where we see is Kate tell Locke "The answer is No". She believes Locke always wanted to stay on the island because he never loved anyone. He then talks about Helen, and when asked why it didn't work out, he responds "I was angry.... obsessed..." Kate coldly replies "Look how far you've come!" Ouch!

Locke argues with Abannon again, as he really wants to find out what happened to Helen.

Next - Santa Monica, where Abannon takes Locke to Helen's grave. They are wearing the same clothes, so we can presume that Abannon was holding back this info until Locke demanded to have it. Helen allegedly died of a brain aneurysm. Her tombstone reads "In memory of Helen Norwood June 30 1957 - April 08, 2006." So - she died after the O6 returned.

Ab - "Helen is where she is supposed to be. As sad as it is, her path lead here... and your path, no matter what you need or what you do, your path leads back to the island."

"You say that like it's all inevitable"

"Mr. Widmore told me Richard Alpert said that you were going to die - so you tell me John - Is that inevitable or is it a choice?"

"What - you think I want to die? How is that... How could you possibly think that's a choice?"

"Hey.... I'm just a driver"

Immediately after, Locke is sitting in the back of the car, while Abannon is loading his chair in the trunk. The rear window is sprayed with blood, and then shatters. Locke painfully jumps in the front, and takes off.

After that conversation, you can't help but wonder if Abannon knew that his inevitable death was coming!

#151. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 3:40 PM

@146 Skipper
Locke wasn't FOOMED on his return to the island maybe, because of his death off the island.?.

#152. Posted by: mozart is not deaf at February 26, 2009 3:43 PM

@119. Posted by: TruRuan

Penny is involved b/c Ben killed Penny at the marina.

In response to my earlier post..."I've said more than once that I believe there is more to Penny than meets the eye."

I, too, believe that Ben tried to exact revenge on Penny b/c he blames Widmore for Alex's death. That wasn't my point. My point was that I believe that Penny is up to her elbows in the happenings on the island. A previous poster had made the point that according to the timeline we've been given, Penny was most likely born on the island or at least spent time there with her daddy. I think this is true and drives her interest in the island today. I don't think her intentions are strictly driven by love or lust for Des. Although...I might be persuaded to sail around the world for him...oh, sorry. Maybe Penny is trying to help her father reestablish himself as leader of the island.

#153. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 26, 2009 3:50 PM

Defending Ben Linus
=====================
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury...
While we concede that the evidence presented in the stunning final moments of this episode may portray my client as evil, selfish, and deceitful... the truth remains that Mr. Benjamin Linus is, in fact, one of the "good guys".

I also remind you, that condemning Mr. Linus is akin to appointing Charles Widmore as a true hero.. The very same Charles Widmore.. who at the age of 17, ordered the amputation of Juliet Burke's hand as a precursor to asking a single question.. the same Charles Widmore who brutally snapped the neck of one of his own people.. the same Charles Widmore who sent an armed team of mercenaries to capture Benjamin Linus and provided them with orders to "Torch the Island".. the same Charles Widmore who empowered these soldiers to murder dozens of innocent people... including my client's sixteen year old daughter..

While I do not condone all of my client's methods, I maintain that the evidence presented clearly shows that Benjamin Linus' actions and intentions were always in the best interest of the Island... the very Island which he was entrusted to protect... and to defend with his very life if necessary.

The defense concedes that Benjamin Linus did, in fact, cause the death of Jeremy Bentham by means of strangulation. But even in this action - which may appear to be an act of brutality and self-interest - it can be argued that Benjamin Linus was acting in a manner that's consistent with his claim to be one of the "good guys".

The case we've presented is a simple one. My client, Mr. Benjamin Linus, was privy to foreknowledge of Mr. Bentham's death. The evidence strongly suggests that if my client had not intervened, Mr. Bentham would've died by his own hand.
The truth, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is that Benjamin Linus attempted to save Mr. Bentham's life - even knowing that by doing so he would be breaking the very rules that Charles Widmore had changed when he murdered poor young Alexandra. My client had gone as far as to even persuade Mr. Bentham to abandon his attempted suicide.

So I ask you to consider why Benjamin Linus would go to such measures to save a man, only to murder him moments later.

And the answer is simple. You see, fair jurors, something happened in those few moments between the time that Mr. Linus was saving a life and when he was forced to take one. He received information from Mr. Bentham himself which caused Benjamin Linus to realize that saving Mr. Bentham was clearly NOT in the best interest of the island.

In fact, my client learned three things from Mr. Bentham that caused Ben Linus to believe that he was actually doing Mr. Bentham a great disservice by saving his life.

The first thing my client learned is that Jin Soo-Kwon was still alive. Why is this so important? Because my client's belief that Mr. Kwon was dead had served as the basis for his belief that the inevitable outcome for Jeremy Bentham could, in fact, be changed.

The second item revealed by the deceased is that was to enlist the help of Eloise Hawking. Based on testimony heard from Ms. Hawking, if Benjamin Linus had succeeded in preventing Mr. Bentham's death in this instance, in all likelihood, Mr. Bentham would still be dead today due to principles of "univeral Course Correction".

The third item of information that Mr. Bentham revealed to my client was of even far greater significance. Mr. Bentham informed my client - in no uncertain terms - that the Island itself had told him that he was supposed to die.

Based on the new information Mr. Bentham himself provided, my client was left with no other choice but to apply his own "course correction" - and restore what was always meant to be the outcome for Jeremy Bentham.

And even though this caused Mr. Linus immeasurable pain and anguish, he did what was absolutely necessary for "the greater good" - not only for the Island - but for every living inhabitant of our very planet including every person who has ever lived as well as all who will one day hope to be born.

In summary, my client, Mr. Benjamin Linus, is truly one of the good guys.

The defense rests.

#154. Posted by: vacc at February 26, 2009 4:03 PM

@5/Posted by: The Other Other:

"Did anyone else think of Luke Skywalker when Locke was sitting on the beach with the blanket over his head?"

@83/Posted by: ransomjackson:

"Locke's landing in the Tunisian desert and getting rescued by Tunisian Sand People was straight out of Star Wars right down to the jibber-jabber and cowls."

I originally got the same sense- a playful homage to Star Wars. After all, D&C are self-professed Star Wars geeks, many Star Wars scenes were shot in Tunisia, George Lucas is a big fan of the Joseph Campbell mythic/hero journey cycle, etc.

@104/Posted by: welh:

"I think Alpert knows that dead Locke returning to the island will create a more powerful being, ghost Locke, on par with Christian."

Hmmm..where we have scene that type of scene before...

Darth Vader thinks he is eliminating a powerful enemy when he kills Obi-Wan, but he actually transforms him to something else- a powerful spiritual mentor who will guide the "chosen one" to the ultimate triumph of the Force (universe, course-correction?) over evil.

If Locke is indeed, as Mac has called him, an Obi-Locke, does that mean Ben is a riff off the Anakin/Darth saga?

Here's a quick overview of Anakin's life, but substitute Ben in the story:

Anakin was identified as special as a young child- he can "see" things, and seems to have a very special connection to the force. There is a feeling that he may be the chosen one.

He has no relationship with his father, and is removed from his mother at a young age. His "parent" figure is his teacher and mentor.

As he becomes a man, he clearly posesses great skills but has significant emotional flaws, becoming arrogant and obsessed with power. He is also plagued by visions that his young wife will die in childbirth.

He is seduced by the dark side with promises of power, knowledge and the hope that his wife will be spared.

He is faced with an ultimate decision between good and evil, and chooses evil, and despite his hopes, his wife dies in childbirth.

His first mission with the dark side is to commit genocide on everyone in the Jedi temple, including women and children. He then travels on a campaign to assasinate seperatist leaders.

He becomes the lead soldier for the forces of evil in the on-going war, until he finds redemption at the hands of the true chosen one when he renounces evil and sacrifices himself.

#155. Posted by: Mizzed at February 26, 2009 4:09 PM

We'll, if we're going down the surrogate path, Jesus's surrogate parents were Joseph and Mary.

Regarding John(3:16), who might they be?

btw... don't really subscribe to the writers angle on this.

#156. Posted by: IslandHopper at February 26, 2009 4:15 PM

@154. Posted by: vacc

Do you love benjaminlinus too? I knew you had it in you!

@155. Posted by: Mizzed

I love the Star Wars references! Here is a call to any and all Star Wars geeks. There is a new movie out in limited release called Fanboys. It pays total homage to all those who have loved Star Wars over the years. Don't expect to use any brain cells. Just go to enjoy and be ready to laugh.

#157. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 26, 2009 4:17 PM

@ → 156. Posted by: IslandHopper We'll, if we're going down the surrogate path, Jesus's surrogate parents were Joseph and Mary.Regarding John(3:16), who might they be?

Locke had foster parents and foster siblings.

#158. Posted by: Skipper at February 26, 2009 4:24 PM

What are the headlines in the states gonna be when they realize the oceanic 6 took a flight together and are missing again???
→ 122. Posted by: Double J

And will Widmore have to stage another fake crash?

And will there be another airline pilot watching the news on TV, knowing that the "fake" pilot is not Frank Lapidus?

The defense rests.
→ 154. Posted by: vacc

Well done. You may have just swayed this juror.

#159. Posted by: lovelost at February 26, 2009 4:27 PM

Rewatch Notes #5:

After the collision, Locke finds himself in a hospital bed, with Jack sitting by his side. They argue about fate:

"They don't want me to get back because I'm important"

Jack cuts Locke up nice and good - calls him delusional, not special, a lonely old man who crashed on an island.
Ouch! Quite the bedside manner!

But just as Jack is leaving, Locke tells him that his father says hello. They argue again, and Jack tells him to leave everyone alone.

Whilst in his room, Locke writes his letter to Jack, and tosses his never used cel phone. He preps to hang himself. Just as he is about to do it, there is a knock at the door. Ben kicks it in, and tried to talk Locke down.

Locke - "What do you want from me?"

Ben - "I'm trying to protect you!"

Locke - (realizes) "You shot him. You killed Abannon."

"Yes... yes I did... But it was only a matter of time before he'd try to kill you. I was just trying to get to you - but you drove off and crashed."

"Why.. Why would...

"He was working for Charles Widmore. He's extremely dangerous.."

"Nooo! Widmore came to me. He saved me.

"No John - he used you. He waited until you showed up, so you could help him get to the island. Charles Widmore is the reason I moved the island.... so he could never find it again, to keep him away so you could lead."

(Long pause, where Ben approaches closer)

"You can't do this. If anything happens to you - John you have no idea how important you are. Let me help you."

"There is no helping me. I'm (snifff)... a failure!"

"No John, you're not"

"I am! I couldn't get any of them... I couldn't get a single one of them to come back with me. I can't lead anyone..."

"Jack booked a ticket."

"What?"

"A plane ticket from Los Angeles to Sydney - tonight - return trip, first thing in the morning. (pause) Whatever you said to him John, it worked. If you got jack, you can get the rest of them. (pause) John.... You can't die. You've got too much work to do. We've got to get you back to that island so you can do it..."

(during this, he is creeping closer to Locke, and he unties the cord from the rad.)

"Please John (reaching hand to him)... c'mon... come down. (Locke steps down).
I know we can do this. You haven't been to Sun yet... let's start with her."

"No... I .... I promised Jin that I wouldn't bring her back..."

"Jin - is alive?"

"Yeah - but he didn't want her to know. He wanted me to tell her that his body washed up on the beach. He gave me his wedding ring to prove it."

"Alright - a promise is a promise. "

(Locke takes off noose) "Thank-you"

"You're welcome. C'mon.. Let's go. I know we can do this. Once we can get them all in the same place. I don't know where we'll go from there, but we'll figure something out. "

(Ben is wrapping up the cord)

"I know where we go. There's a woman, here in Los Angeles..."

"A woman?"

"Yeah - I don't know exactly where, but she shouldn't be that hard to find. Her name is.... is.... Eloise Hawking."

(bug eyes widen)

"Eloise Hawking... you sure?"

"Yeah... yeah... why, do you know her?"

"Yes John...(calmly walks behind him), I know her..." (violently swings cable around his neck, and strangles)

It is interesting to note, that as Ben strangles Locke, he closes his eyes, like he can't watch or bear what he is doing. When John stops moving, Ben releases the lifeless Locke, himself gasping for air from the struggle.

Ben then cleans the room, takes Jin's ring, and opens the door. He takes one last look...

"I'll miss you John. I really will."

He closes the door, and we see John hanging.

#160. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 4:31 PM

@ 154. Posted by: vacc
You just made iloveben's day!

While we're on the subject of questioning Penny's innocence, is it possible her North Pole location was another Dharma station? Maybe she and her father aren't as at-odds as we think. Also, I never fully understood how the Looking Glass station had Penny's frequency, or vice versa. Methinks Penny's got some splainin' to do.

**********Some Tidbits From Lostpedia**************

Lostpedia says that Walt referring to Locke as Bentham to Hurley in the season 4 finale -- even though we never saw him meet "Bentham" -- was probably a continuity error. That makes sense to me, because TPTB were using the name Bentham to hide the big season 4 finale surprise. I think the error was that the writers forgot to throw in a line in this episode where Locke tells Walt to refer to him now as Bentham. Unless they do meet again before Walt goes to see Hurley.

Speaking of possible writers' errors, Lostpedia says:
According to DarkUFO, the opening scene of this episode was originally intended to be the opening scene of "Because You Left." So maybe that's why the opening and closing scenes of this episode weren't identical, just an "oops" by the writers. Of course it could be a Horace Goodspeed chopping down the tree looping thing.

Lostpedia: Caesar finds Faraday's map to the Tempest and a page of his journal. OK, I'll buy that.

***********End Lostpedia Tidbits******

Why didn't Widmore see Ben with his security camera? That really bothered me. I like Shikotee's suggestion @69 that Widmore found the spot after Ben landed. But I also like Lost in Ca's point that Ben had been to the Tunisian hotel before. Maybe it's the looping thing again. Dang Bill Murray -- 6 more weeks of winter!

Widmore tells Locke he hasn't tried to kill him. "Can you say the same for Ben?" Does Widmore know Ben tried to kill him and, if so, how? I suppose Sun could have told him. OK, never mind. Probably not that important.

#161. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 26, 2009 4:37 PM

Widmore did know the spot in Tunisia, because that is where Widmore "Exited" when Ben tricked him. So he did see Ben arrive after the FDW, and that's why that guy came on horseback right after Ben landed and tried to kill him. But somehow Ben knew that would happen and killed the guy and stole his horse.

#162. Posted by: Rudy at February 26, 2009 4:53 PM

Small point: When we were first introduced to Charlotte, she was in the Tunisian desert discovering a Dharma-tagged polar bear. This was when Widmore discovered the exit point from the island, subsequently leading to the installment of surveillance equipment to capture any future departures.

#163. Posted by: timmy at February 26, 2009 4:55 PM

If Widmore is correct in saying he was the island leader for 30 years and kept the peace, that would mean a) he surpassed Alpert in a leadership role; b)was the Hostiles leader when Dharma was present and active so he must have had some kind of truce with them (which probably ticked off some Hostiles, including Alpert, who recruited Ben for the Purge).
If Widmore is correct that he was tricked or exiled from the island, that would have occurred prior to the Purge and Ben's rise to power. It would be more likely that in order to keep the peace inside his group, Widmore was sent off-island to eliminate Dharma locations (to stop support of DI on the island) and then Alpert had someone, like Ellie, turn the FDW, thereby moving the island so Widmore could never return. Widmore blames Ben because he took his position of power, but they were both manipulated in their roles by Alpert (whose singular goal was to eliminate all of Dharma).
But it appears that after the take over, Ben re-stocked the others with his own recruits (like Tom, Juliet and newer weapons and technology).

And if you recall, when Locke first joined the Others, Alpert appeared ticked that under Ben's leadership, the group has strayed from its primary mission (which may be as simple as worshipping the island god(s)). Alpert gave Locke the file on his father to set in motion the test that Locke could be the Others leader (kill thy father). This set in motion the elimination of Ben as Others leader and Ben's temporary exile from the island.

So I don't think Alpert/natives want either Ben or Widmore back on the island (which may be a metaphor for Eden, purgatory, nexis between heaven-hell, fourth dimension, parallel universe . . . )

#164. Posted by: welh at February 26, 2009 4:57 PM

shikotee - i respect your posts, but what is with these recaps today?

#165. Posted by: Steve at February 26, 2009 5:00 PM

Ok I’m hoping people respond to this are jump on it and work things out for me but here was something I couldn’t shake ….. is there anyone out there that thinks that first flight 815 that Christian pulled a Locke and he with other members we are yet to know about (maybe the children reincarnated or something I’m not sure yet) pulled a Oceanic 06. In other words the first plane crash happened because another group was trying to get back themselves the first time.

Also is anyone feeling like Sayid, Kate, Hurley, and Sun are all there because of back stories that will reveal they actually aren’t there to help because of what jack wanted or Ben manipulated but instead they are all there because of Widmore manipulated them all are talked them all in to going to save there friends and bonus take down Ben Linus too – by helping Widmore? It will be those 4 turning on Jack and in the War they will not stand together.

Ok that’s my ramble guessing for today

#166. Posted by: Richard at February 26, 2009 5:04 PM

Yes, I do still love Ben after this episode. He was super cute when he stopped Locke from committing suicide, but like everyone said, Ben must have been triggered by Ms. Hawking's name. I'm surprised he didn't use his totally amazing death stick.

I haven't really read all of the posts yet, and I'm trying to skim/ctrl+f to see if I'm repeating anything but...

I'm curious to see how Ceaser and Air Marshall lady will react to the O6 - Aaron + Locke and Ben's history with the island.

Doesn't it seem like SOMEONE should have recognized the O5 when they got on the plane? I mean, they are worldwide celebs after all. And even if they didn't recognize their faces, shouldn't they have recognized their names (from the manifest)?

Also because they were all in the SAME PLACE at the SAME TIME. People tend to remember where they recognize people more when they are around people that they are recognizible with.

If someone just saw Jack randomly he could pass as any random guy. However, if he was somewhere with Kate, he would become more identifiable to people.

Kind of like Mac pointed out -- Who made Ceaser king? Jack became the defacto leader primarily because of his medical background, and the fact that the Losties THOUGHT that he was trustworthy (later they will come to realize that they made a huge mistake), but what's so special about this Ceaser guy???

And about the Dharma office thing -- I don't recall ever seeing that before. I was wondering where it was and how they found it when they first showed that they were on the island.

I may be remembering this incorrectly but did anyone notice that the magazine thingy about the H-Bombs and testing on the island looked like something that would be printed today? Would something like that have been printed between the 50's and 70's? I don't know because I wasn't alive during that time, but I always thought that the newer kind of magazines with pretty typing, color and pictures started somewhat recetly.

Locke has a tendency of being somewhat blunt to people. A few examples:
1. Telling Richard that he was appointed as the other's leader.
2. Telling the O6 that they need to go back to the island.
3. Telling the Ajirans that he may have an idea what happened to the disappearing people.
and 4. Telling the Ajirans that the man in the bed (Ben) was the man that killed him.

Let me just say -- Jack is REALLY MEAN. This episode just proved why I hate him even more than I could ever imagine. Who says something like that to someone? He deserves to feel guilty. Jack should have been the one in that coffin.

So what if Ben does everything for selfish reasons? He gets things done. He was most likely being quite serious about keeping the O6 safe, considering the fact that he NEEDED them in order to get himself back on the island.

It was kind of depressing how Ben didn't "disappear" with the rest of them. Maybe the island/Jacob/Christian has plans for the O6. Maybe something will lead them in the right direction? It already sort of leaded them to Jin.

Don't you think Widmore would have an informative on the Ajira flight? He kept tabs on all of the O6, he's bound to have found that evident connection.

Anyone anticipating the O6 and left behinders reunion? I kinda want to see their reaction to Ben more than anyone else.

As far as we know, Sawyer and Jules never hooked up yet. Another love triangle? Back to the rectangle? (Except now it would actually be a recatngle... before it was a triangle +1)

Jack wants Kate. Kate wants Sawyer. Sawyer wants Juliet. Juliet wants Jack.

...?

It's highly likely that when Locke said Eloise Hawking's name that Ben got incredibly jealous. Jealousy seems to be Ben's weakness that causes him to be violent.

I'm interested to see how Sawyer, Miles, Daniel, Jin, etc. got used to living on the island in past time. We already got a glimpse of it, but we haven't really seen the meat yet.

Do you think they'll ever run into past Ben? But Ben didn't recognize any of them when he first saw them, so probably not.

Can anyone estimate roughly what year they're stuck in? (Assuming that they are in fact stuck in one time).

Factors to consider while doing this:
1. Daniel is shown to appear during "beginning of Dharma time", which is presumably during the 1970's.
2. Charlotte says she remembers Daniel visiting her when she was young. This means he also had to be there during the "beginning of Charlotte time". Ben said that Charlotte was born on July 2, 1979.
3. Ben was born on December 19th, sometime in the early 1960's. Ben couldn't have been more than 10 when he came to the island, but it didn't look like he came during the beginning of Dharma time (1970's). They already seemed quite established.
4. The Purge occured at 4 P.M. on December 19, 1992, which happened to be Ben's birthday.

There's got to be more to add to this timing list. I appologize is someone already estimated the date.

That's all I got for now.

Btw -- GRAA Mac!!! More like -- SGRAAMoaSGE!!! (Super great review as always Mac on a super great episode!)

Super is kind of an annoying word but you get what I mean. =]

#167. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 5:10 PM

I just realized how long that post is. Sorry about that.

#168. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 5:11 PM

@154 (vacc)

"The third item of information that Mr. Bentham revealed to my client was of even far greater significance. Mr. Bentham informed my client - in no uncertain terms - that the Island itself had told him that he was supposed to die."

Did he *really*? I'm asking because my current theory depends on Ben *not* knowing that Locke is slated to die. From shikotee's recap @160, I still think that Ben was ignorant of that crucial bit of info, but I'd already deleted the episode from my dvr and can't check.

#169. Posted by: marissa at February 26, 2009 5:20 PM

what does "GRAA" stand for?

#170. Posted by: Maya at February 26, 2009 5:31 PM

"what does "GRAA" stand for?"

one of many returns from Google:
Grants to Reduce Alcohol Abuse (GRAA)

However, I thought that this morning and I'm putting my money on 'Great Review as always' as it was directed at Mac.

#171. Posted by: Steve at February 26, 2009 5:35 PM

@ Vacc - 11
"I think that the 316ers landed on the little island with the Hydra station. Then Lapidus and his own scarfy flight attendant paddled their way to the real Island, only to find the beach camp deserted."

I agree. This would make a lot of sense.

Is it just me or did the Ajirans not seem too curious as to how there was a random office already on the island?

I wonder what else they found and how long they've been looking for it.

They seem to have situated quickly.

@ TanziTwo - 13
"Ben always has a plan."

You're right. And this is why it is highly likely that the murder/set up was premeditated as opposed to out of passion.

Ben is brilliant.

I acutally forgot about that awesome moment when Ben says that he always has a plan. Love his face in that scene. His eyes were GORGEOUS. =P

"The bug-eyed freak takes his orders from Alpert and Hawking... always has - always will."

I don't agree actually. It didn't seem like he took orders from Richard, and someone could eaisly argue that he never took orders from Hawking either. He probably just used them like he used everyone else to further his own agenda. Richard said that Ben was the leader even though Richard should have the power. Speaking of which, we still don't know why Richard appoints leaders instead of having himself be the leader. I liked the theory about how Richard needs a leader so that he can communicate with his future/past self.

So does the fact that it looks like Locke was resurrected confirm the fact that Christian was resurrected? If this is true, what does it mean?

I just realized that everyone that mentioned the Hydra pretty much posted it at the same time.

TOTHI!!! (18)

Maybe the reason that the island let the O6 leave was so that when they return, they will appreciate the island more than they did while they were on it. This seemed to work in Jack's case.

@ Stocky - 12
Nice summary/theory thing. I agree.

@ Christine Loves Lost - 25
"does anyone think that Libby could have been working for Widmore in the same way that Matthew Abbadon was (as in getting people to where they're supposed to be or something)?"

Nice one. I didn't think of that. This would totally answer all those questions.

Maybe she didn't work for Widmore becuase he already had a guy for that job. Maybe she worked for someone else. Ben? Doubt it. She did kinda look like she could fit in with the others.

Speaking of Libby -- Does anyone think that Libby did in fact remember Hugo from Santa Rosa?

@ davidrh - 26
"Who's good - who's bad? Probably remains to be seen. But one thing for sure - Benny is a rat-fink. (Little Missy - you need to get yourself a new heart-throb, for sure!)"

He is my one and only. (Haha). =P

@ undaunted - 27
"When John tells Ben, "I promised Jin." Ben responds, "A promise is a promise." That got me to thinking about how Ben tends to keep his promises and that got me to wondering if the reason Ben remains relentlessly on the path he is on is because he made a promise to someone."

I know! This line made my heart melt. I'm not usually into the whole mushy gushy stuff but when stuff like that comes out of Ben's mouth, it's awesome.

Is there any particular reason that Ben always talks to Locke with the tone of voice as if Locke were a child? Kind of also like he was trying to comfort a crying baby or something.

#172. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 5:47 PM

Ok I’m hoping people respond to this are jump on it and work things out for me but here was something I couldn’t shake ….. is there anyone out there that thinks that first flight 815 that Christian pulled a Locke and he with other members we are yet to know about (maybe the children reincarnated or something I’m not sure yet) pulled a Oceanic 06. In other words the first plane crash happened because another group was trying to get back themselves the first time. #166. Posted by: Richard

That's the direction I was heading in #159 above....the fact that this sort of thing has happened before and is happening again. However, I can't work it out beyond that. Maybe "it" has to keep happening in order to get "it" right.

#173. Posted by: lovelost at February 26, 2009 5:49 PM

→ 167. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx :

"I may be remembering this incorrectly but did anyone notice that the magazine thingy about the H-Bombs and testing on the island looked like something that would be printed today? Would something like that have been printed between the 50's and 70's? I don't know because I wasn't alive during that time, but I always thought that the newer kind of magazines with pretty typing, color and pictures started somewhat recetly."

OMG...I haven't laughed so hard in a long time...
; > ; > ; >

Just to clarify, we had given up tapping out cuneiform by the 1950s & did have color magazines, photos, & pretty fonts.

Signed, One of the Oldsters Here


#174. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at February 26, 2009 5:54 PM

@Richard 166
Nice theory, but now my nose is bleeding.

@ilovebenjaminlinusxx 167
Re Caesar (channeling Mel Brooks in History of the World): It's good to be the king!

The magazine is a 1950s era Life magazine – yeah, they had glossy mags back then.

You said, "So what if Ben does everything for selfish reasons? He gets things done." Bear with me, as I'm long removed from my college Philosophy 101 course, but I believe you are arguing in favor of the philosophy of egoism or ethical egoism, in which people do or should act according to what's in their own self-interest. Utilitarianism, on the other hand, argues that the merit of an action lies in its contribution to the overall utility (benefit/happiness/etc) of the many. Whether Ben is a egoist or a utilitarian is one of the deepest mysteries of this show, IMHO, but if you compare aliases, I would argue that Dean Moriarty, one of Ben's aliases, is a super egoist, doing only what benefits himself, whereas Jeremy Bentham was one of the most important utilitarianists who ever lived.

#175. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 26, 2009 5:55 PM

I mean Utilitarian, not Utilitarianist. By the way, Hume (David, not Desmond) is another Utilitarian philosopher.

#176. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 26, 2009 6:06 PM

@ Plain Simple - 29
"If Widmore was monitoring the Tunisia spot, wouldn't he have caught Ben arriving there as well? Or did his surveillance there start later? And why didn't Ben's people keep the place under surveillance?"

I think that the reason that Widmore decided to monitor it is because after Ben visited him in his penthouse, he started to investigate Ben's sudden appearance. Considering how powerful and resourceful Widmore is, he could have easily pulled that off.

Ben appeared about 9 months after the O6 got back.

High Rollers:
1. Charles Widmore
2. Benjamin Linus
3. Mr. Paik

Just how powerful are they?

Is it bad that Locke is starting to trust Christian/Widmore over Jacob/Ben? Although Locke seems to think that Christian works for Jacob somehow.

All of the 'big three' seem to only care about their own agenda. They use people to get what they want, then they tend to dispose of them. (Actually, we haven't seen much evidence of disposing, but still). Being manipulative seems like an essential skill in their world.

I wonder who trumps who. Can Widmore out-manipulate Ben? I wonder...

They do seem to have some competition going on. (Regarding the 'rules')

"But for all we know Jack started taking these flights only from that point onwards? John's mention of his dad could have made enough of an impact to trigger this."

Agreed.

"Have we seen him touching people? Christian didn't seem able to do that. Locke did seem to interact with objects normally though, like the blanket he wore in the opening beach scene."

As far as we know, we saw him touch Aaron in "Cabin Fever".

"Did he? Did I miss that as well? I thought Christian told Locke about Hawking?"

You're right. Christian told Locke and Widmore told Desmond. It's a small world after all...

"Bencident" -- I like that word Plain Simple. Completely fits.

#177. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 6:06 PM

OK... I think I was more transcribing than taking notes. That took way too much time.

@93. Posted by: PiecesofArzt
re: "I don't think Walt believed Locke when he said that Michael was OK and on the island."

Locke was not lying - that was all he actually knew! I can believe Locke wanting to protect him, but I find it hard to believe that Walt would be satisfied by a 5 minute conversation.

@94. Posted by: Glostover
re: "I believe that Locke was killed dead, dead, dead, by Ben, but I also think Ben did it not to get rid of Locke but to fulfill a larger plan."


After re-watching, my thoughts are similar. Much like it was inevitable for Locke to die, I think it was also inevitable for Ben to be the one to do it.

My guess would also be that Locke also FOOMed from the coffin, onto the island, and did not just break out from within.

"what is the big deal about being the leader of that island anyway?????"

Comparing the way the Others referred to Jacob during S3 to how many speak to Locke, it just seems natural that he will become Jacob, or that Jacob will be the persona that he uses when he communicates with the past.


@96. Posted by: Renee
re: "Why did the island want Locke dead?"

My feeling on this is that some things about the future are known by certain people. They knew a basic landing strip had to be built for 316. I think they also knew that Locke would die, and be reborn on the island. Hard to say any more about resurrection, as there could be a wide range of fantastical explanations!

@99. Posted by: theoldred
re: "Widmore lying about Desmond's letters"

This is a soft lie, though. He does this because he is trying to protect his daughter. A very father thing to do!

@102. Posted by: Mizzed
re: "suicide"

I've mentioned before, I do not think the island is simply anti-suicide. Locke's suicide attempt is complicated. His dialogue revealed that he was scared, but also that he had lost faith in himself. In the world of Lost, when Locke loses faith, bad things happen.

It would be one thing if he would commit suicide fully believing that he is doing the right thing (for the island), but this was not the case. The Locke that was trying to hang himself, once again, believed himself to be a failure. Sayid, Kate, and Jack had planted the seeds of doubt within him, and he began to believe that he was nothing but a lonely old man, as he truly was for much of his life prior to the island.

The island can't let this happen, because Locke is destined to become the leader, and thus, Ben is there to course correct. When Ben talks Locke down, he takes on the task of rebuilding Locke's confidence. Only then, can Locke die, as he must.

#178. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 6:12 PM

I think the word/phrase (whichever it is) to describe Jack is "close-minded".

Close-minded + large ego = Aarogant son of a *FLASH*... BEEP.

#179. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 6:16 PM

Are the canoes kinda like the canoe that Karl helped Kate and Sawyer escape from the Hydra on? (Sorry if someone said this).

#180. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 6:18 PM

Why does Locke seem to walk/function fine? When he died, his leg was still broken. Shouldn't it still be broken? This might be really stupid to say, but I'm pretty sure that broken limbs don't heal after you die.

#181. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 6:36 PM

@169: marissa << Did he *really*? I'm asking because my current theory depends on Ben *not* knowing that Locke is slated to die.

Although I used it in my mock closing argument, Locke did not actually tell Ben that he was supposed to die. The premise of my entire case is based on an assumption (that Ben was privy to future events) rather than established facts. As such I was merely attempting to plant this idea into the minds of the jury.
Personally, however, I do believe that Ben was aware of this detail.

#182. Posted by: vacc at February 26, 2009 6:37 PM

AND I don't think that the island could have heald it so quickly. Paralysis and cancer are different stories.

#183. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 6:37 PM

Don't they all have to be in the same 'time zone'. I say this because Ms. Hawking said that this plane was going to take them where the island was GOING TO BE in TIME. Therefore, they should all be on the island during the same time.

... if that made any sense.

#184. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 6:39 PM

@ Clementine - 42
"And I thought Hurley's scene with Locke was perfect. He's okay with Locke when he thinks he's seeing another ghost, but scared to death when he finds out Locke is alive!"

Yes, that was such a great scene.

Those who have a true grip on reality go insane. People that don't appear crazy are the ones that are actually insane. This is because the 'insane' can't handle the truth and the 'sane' are oblivious to it. (Not sure if I worded that right).

Yes, I have been reading Hamlet. Which is by the way AWESOME.

#185. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 6:44 PM

The Ajirans seem VERY situated in the Dharma facilities.

Soon Tom aka Mr. Friendly (who throws like a girl) will come out and say, "This is not your island, this is OUR island. The only reason you live on it, is becase we LET YOU live on it."

They got an earlier start on civilization than the 815ers did.

#186. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 6:49 PM

How can they kill off Abadan like that. He was so mysterious and had us all wondering , then the PTB just go ahead and have him be a stupid driver and killed that fast. What a crock. His back story may have been the most interesting.

The funny thing was he said John would thank him when he saw him again and the whole exchange was lame. I expected way more. The fact the writers spent more time on two new characters in caesar and Jordan Sparks and didn't at least give us a good 10 minutes of him sucked. The writers are definitely finding the easy way with the dumb time jumps to show back stories and such.

#187. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at February 26, 2009 6:51 PM

I liked the "driver" metaphor that Abbaddon used to describe himself.

"I am someone who gets people who where they're supposed to be" aka... A DRIVER! That's probably why they made him drive Locke around.

#188. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 6:56 PM

@187 Alex Angel
Abaddon telling Locke that he owes him a favor is PRECISELY why I don't think he's dead. Or will become undead or something.

#189. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 26, 2009 7:04 PM

Scooby-Dude: Who's not dead? Locke or Abaddon?

#190. Posted by: Steve at February 26, 2009 7:06 PM

@139 Scooby-Dude straight-manned:

>Why did the shepherds cross the street? Anyone?

To get to the Other Sayid.

============

Survivor review will not me posted until tomorrow night, due to a basketball preemption/delay in my area. There is an update to the Bio blog, though, as there will be regularly thoughout the season.

#191. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 26, 2009 7:13 PM

It bothers me that dead Locke and reincarnated Locke didn't have any of the head and face wounds he suffered during the car accident.

#192. Posted by: Flom at February 26, 2009 7:15 PM

Only to Post 30...so forgive me if someone has said this already.

If Widmore is 17 when he first meets Locke and he was on the island for 30 years wouldn't that mean that Penny was born on the island...it's a stretch, I know.

I get the feeling that Widmore is there with the military and was not born on the island so his 30 years would have started at age 17, making him 47 when he left. He looks to be late 60s...and Penny looks a lot older than 20.

#193. Posted by: SAo_Lost at February 26, 2009 7:21 PM

to Lost in ca

If I remember right, people came to get Ben when he arrived in Tunisia and Ben got the better of them, then got out of Dodge fast.

#194. Posted by: Ben's my Idol at February 26, 2009 7:27 PM

@190 Steve
Who's not dead? Locke or Abaddon?

It's a stretch, but I'm saying Abaddon may not be dead. Otherwise, that whole "you’ll owe me a favor" comment was a waste of airtime.

#195. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 26, 2009 7:27 PM

I wish Locke had told the O6 something along the lines of "the island is skipping through time and everyone's brain is leaking out their nose." At least it's a little persuasive. They saw it disappear. He doesn't have to mention that turning the wheel stopped the flashes.

#196. Posted by: Flom at February 26, 2009 7:38 PM

i like that Scooby-Dude.
I don't think Abaddon is just some random character. I don't get into the whole religious thing, but like I said earlier, there are some interesting things out there on 'abaddon' -- the destroyer, satan...and most importantly....

Abaddon Is The "Beast" Who Ascends From The Abyss

kinda sounds like the smoke monster?

#197. Posted by: Steve at February 26, 2009 7:39 PM

→ 197. Posted by: Steve
Abaddon Is The "Beast" Who Ascends From The Abyss
kinda sounds like the smoke monster?
----
Good point, that bears repeating. When Montand was dragged down the smokie vent, losing his arm in the process. Was that really him down there politely saying... "A little help, mon frere"?
Or was it smokey taking on human qualities to set the lure? Harper Stanhope - there? not there? or Smokie? Maybe Widmore was exiled with Smokie technology smarts - or was exiled because he created them? Abaddon is the extension of the technology (fine... voodoo magic, whatever)... now available in 'human' form (driver's license sold separately).

#198. Posted by: DocH at February 26, 2009 8:14 PM

→ 189. Posted by: Scooby-Dude

You get a feeling the writers are reintroducing Abaddon to be a bit of story teller from here on out. Like Alpert, look to see him hang around in the Black Rock, etc. back story.

#199. Posted by: IslandHopper at February 26, 2009 8:19 PM

About Ben, he sure does admit to alot lately. I think that is his gimmick. He does not do many of the things he says he does, just so he gains the advantage in the conversation.

Did you kill Abaddon? Yeah sure.
Did you stab so-n-so? Yeah sure.
Did you conspire to...? Yeah sure.
Did you set things up so we would...? Yeah sure.?

He already knows he won't be believed when he says he did not do anything wrong? So he just goes ahead and takes credit for bad things - even if he did not do it - JUST to get the converasation rolling and the information he needs to do what needs to be done next.

That's the schtick between him and Hawking.

Q: Is he lying?
A: Probably.

She knows that is his M.O. She is just perpetuating it. So Locke thinks Ben shot Abaddon (which WE did not see). All we have is Ben's word ($0) for it. Locke revealed what Ben needed as soon as Ben said - awww what the heck, yea I killed Abaddon.

Is Ben bad? (yes)
Is Ben evil? (no).
Will Ben lie to accomplish his mission? (certainly).
Will Ben ultimately wind-up championing the victory for the 'better' side, in the war for the island? (probably).

#200. Posted by: DocH at February 26, 2009 8:40 PM

ok...I hate to ask....because I've been around a long time...but I can't remember what TPTB stands for.

#201. Posted by: So_Lost at February 26, 2009 8:41 PM

My comments as of pst #197 …

@1/MattS: “JBINDIL”

Gotta ask … Wha? Completely pointless I suppose, but anyone else get that?

JBINDIL = Jughead Bomb Is Not Detonated In Lost?
JBINDIL = Just Bought Into Not Denying I’m Lost?
JBINDIL = Jumped Back In Now Despite Insane Lunacy?
JBINDIL = Just Bumped Into Naughty Damon In London?
JBINDIL = Just Breathalyzed … I’m Not DUI … I Lied!?

Someone help me! Unless …

JBINDIL = Jeremy Bentham Is Not Dying In Lost!

Correct?

@40/Clementine: “Locke was savoring his island mango like a man with living taste buds!”

Am I the only one to think (ala Seinfeld) … “it moved!” And am I wrong, or did Locke not give Ilana the eye at that moment! :0

@80/Mizzed: “In seasons 1-4, the Oceanic 815 survivors appear to react to events for the first time (i.e. not looping), but encounter other characters who clearly know future events- Hawking, Abaddon, Widmore, Malkin, Richard, etc. This is especially true of Ben, who pulls off some incredibly intricate plans that involve multiple people who must react exactly as anticipated (note we've seen the scene from New Otherton when flight 815 crashed three seperate times, each with different nuances- Groundhog Day, anyone?). How would they know the future if they hadn't already experienced it?”

SepArate times! … sorry … one of my pet peeve words …

Anyway … yes, I think so! Let me take this one step further regarding Des … his earlier “flashes” of Charlie dying were actually from previous times through the time loop … each “earlier” time, Charlie ended up dying in the fashion Des saw in his flashes (very Groundhog Day, eh?). But just like the drunk in GHD, Charlie HAD to die … however, things “changed” when he died “at the right time” so Penny could find the island. I also think this is what is meant when Ben says the rules have changed after Alex was killed … something is JUST a little bit different this time through the loop … opening the possibility that those trapped can finally escape.

@109/Bus Said: Kinda fits with my time-loop theory, doesn’t it? Ben has been round and round before … hence his reservation at the hotel in Tunisia … he keeps coming back! Only this time is “different” … “the rules have changed” … that gives him hope to escape his “purgatory” of entrapment in looped time …

@173/lovelost: “the fact that this sort of thing has happened before and is happening again.”

Ah, another convert? Time is looping … that is the explanation … Lost is all about them stopping the loop!

@191/Cecil Rose: “>Why did the shepherds cross the street? Anyone?

To get to the Other Sayid.”

Complete non sequitur , but …

To get to the Other Saïd (i.e., Caesar)?

Hmm …

#202. Posted by: ealgumby at February 26, 2009 8:51 PM

I think I'm the abbreviation interpreter tonight :-)

TPTB is "The Powers That Be"

#203. Posted by: Steve at February 26, 2009 8:51 PM

Ben tells Locke that Jack bought a ticket to ..... Sidney??? When am I.

#204. Posted by: lostsox at February 26, 2009 8:54 PM

→ 204. Posted by: lostsox
Ben tells Locke that Jack bought a ticket to ..... Sidney??? When am I.
- - - -
Sydney? You are very late 2007, or early 2008.

#205. Posted by: DocH at February 26, 2009 9:17 PM

→ 202. Posted by: ealgumby

via: @191/Cecil Rose: “>Why did the shepherds cross the street? Anyone?

To get to the Other Sayid.”

Now that is Funny!

via the rumours of Kate and the 4th Generation "Shepard"

...... makes sense.

#206. Posted by: IslandHopper at February 26, 2009 9:17 PM

BTW ... since no one has yet (?) correctly identified this ...

Widmore as leader on the island since 1954 plus more than thirty years equals ...

from the blast door map: "Believed to have divested from project in 1985 following AH/MDG incident. Arrow station believe to have been abandoned due to AH/MDG incident of 1985. Multiple escape conducts blocked after incident"

Hmm ... seems the Alvar Hanso/Magnus DeGroot incident of 1985 booted Widmore from the island!

Could he (i.e., Widmore) be trying to change that "incident" to keep himself in charge of the island? Likely to me...

Also BTW ... 2008 - 1985 = 23 ... another number, right? Still sticking to my belief that the numbers represent years between significant events between 1954 and 2008 ...

4 + 8 + 42 = 54
15 + 16 + 23 = 54

Coincidence? I think not ...

Won't waste my/your time listing other numbers/date correlations ... just give in to the ealgumby side now, and save red pain later! ;)

#207. Posted by: ealgumby at February 26, 2009 9:18 PM

with regard to Locke standing on the table after Ben staged the suicide: Would that mean the cops who found him and the coroner's office were all in on the con? Because a death by hanging requires the hangee to you know...hang, not stand. And what is more, the ligature marks around his throat would be different if he was strangled than if he was hanged.

#208. Posted by: undaunted at February 26, 2009 9:22 PM

TPTB = That's Paulo's Toilet, Brotha

#209. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 26, 2009 9:23 PM

I'd love to see what happens when dead Locke meets up with Miles.

#210. Posted by: BEMH at February 26, 2009 9:27 PM

@208/undaunted: "with regard to Locke standing on the table after Ben staged the suicide: Would that mean the cops who found him and the coroner's office were all in on the con? Because a death by hanging requires the hangee to you know...hang, not stand. And what is more, the ligature marks around his throat would be different if he was strangled than if he was hanged."

I have to LOVE the CSI/NCIS/et al refs ... "ligature" ... who uses this word in daily life? Okay, YES, a real CSI-type person could have differentiated between a strangulation and hanging ... BUT ... an apparently destitute person apparently hanging himself in an obviously run-down room ... would NOT likely lead to careful examination by the coroner/CSI. It is actually pretty damned accurate that Locke's "suicide" would be treated just as such, without evidence to the contrary.


#211. Posted by: ealgumby at February 26, 2009 9:34 PM

@210/BEMH: "I'd love to see what happens when dead Locke meets up with Miles."

I'd love to see what happens when dead Locke meets up with Jacob and/or Christian and/or RA!

#212. Posted by: ealgumby at February 26, 2009 9:37 PM

@195: Scooby-Dude >> It's a stretch, but I'm saying Abaddon may not be dead. Otherwise, that whole "you’ll owe me a favor" comment was a waste of airtime.

A part of me always believed that Abaddon is really a fully grown Walt - who at some time in the future will return to the Island, get hurled into the Island's past, and eventually leave the Island as a grown man before 10 year old Walt arrives. I know that's a reach, but nothing that's happened yet - including Locke's visit to Walt in NY - rules that out completely.
As improbable as that may be, if it were true, then the next time that Locke actually sees him is not in Tunisia, but on the Island - as a boy.

Regardless, I know we haven't seen the last of Walt because he appears in every season finale.

And I don't think we've seen the last of Abaddon either. We may even learn that it was him that kicked Ben's a$$ before he got on the Ajira plane.. Revenge for denting a perfectly good bullet proof vest, and also as part of his assignment to protect his bosses daughter - since Widmore has to assume that Penny will be traveling with Desmond to see Hawking.

#213. Posted by: vacc at February 26, 2009 9:45 PM

Didnt they say that the time jumping would stop once the O6 returned the island? Does this mean that they are going to be stuck in the time zone they are in (which seems to be in the time of the Dharma) or will they still continue to jump through time?

#214. Posted by: Courtney at February 26, 2009 9:47 PM

@105. Posted by: lovelost
re: contrived suicide

I didn't feel this at all. Statistically, it is well documented that people who try to commit suicide will also try to save themselves in the process.

Can you imagine the things that would have been going through his head? Locke believes in "signs" (like meeting Jack in the hospital), so for him, Jack purchasing a ticket re-affirmed his faith. Remember, he did have the belief that if he could just get through to one person, the rest would follow...

@106. Posted by: PiecesofArzt
re: "The Hostiles attacked the original Others when Ben was a kid."

And here it is that we can mark the origins of Widmore meeting Ben. The interesting thing that I noticed in this episode, was how Widmore constantly referred to Ben as "Benjamin". At first, I thought this was just his refined snobishness.

Then, I thought back of the scene where Ben visits Widmore and tells him he will kill his daughter. Widmore says something on the lines of "I know who you are, boy". All this points towards Widmore knowing Benjamin while he was young, and still referring to him by that name whilst he is older.

@107. Posted by: Stocky
re: "It DOES appear that ultimately Ben IS doing the work of the island, even though his actions seem to be, in his mind, for his own benefit."

I think we are on similar wavelengths!


@123. Posted by: Cecil Rose
re: Jack and the plane ticket

Yup - only Oceanic, which is what he uses when flying and hoping to plop onto the island. He only switched airlines when Hawking told him to!


@126. Posted by: LostedIt
re: 316 manifest in the real world

That is funny - how would the outside world react to 5 of the O6 being involved in a plane crash? How will this affect Aaron, Walt, and Sun's kid?

Then again, we've seen that Widmore has influence at airports (via his chat with Sun), and we know he has been watching them. It is very possible that he would have the manifest changed, to hide their identities.

@132. Posted by: ransomjackson
re: Helen's brain aneurysm? Do I detect Ben's handiwork there?"

Same thought crossed my mind. Helen is easily the only person who could stop Locke from returning. I guess we'll see....


@137. Posted by: youknowwho
re: "My passport is for 10 years. "

Not if it is a Canadian passport!
2011 is the target to extend it to a 10 year period!


@154. Posted by: vacc
re: "Defending Ben Linus"

lol - pretty funny!

I would counter that being the age of 17, Charles Widmore was involved in circumstances beyond his breadth and experience, and that for this, the court should show leniency.


@165. Posted by: Steve
re: recaps

LoL! In retrospect, I should have rewatched the ep, jotted notes, made cuts, then posted. Was multi-tasking a few things, and for some reason thought it would make more sense to post on the fly. My mistake.

Ultimately, the goal was to compare Widmore's exact words to Ben's exact words, and see if we can figure who is more truthy!

#215. Posted by: shikotee at February 26, 2009 9:53 PM

Speaking of the Montand incident, apparently nothing happened to the 'team members' that followed him into the cave after his supposed cry for help.

That cry for help was unusually calm. I expected smokey to attack them because that cry for help would have been from smokey, but they didn't look like they were dying until Rousseau shot Alex's father... then he definitely looked like he was dying.

#216. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 9:54 PM

About the whole Abbadon = Future Walt thing... Notice how teenage Walt calls Locke "John", and Abbadon calls him "Mr. Locke". I know others have speculated in previous episodes from season 4 that he might be Walt BECAUSE he calls Locke "Mr. Locke", and that's exactly what he called him on-island.

Would teenage Walt be able to meet/see Abbadon if they were the same person?

#217. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 26, 2009 10:00 PM

finally got through all the posts. first off a question...has widmore ever said that he wants to go back to the island? all i can remember is various characters saying he wants to FIND the island

@73. Posted by: Aubrey re the boats. if lapidus and sun were foomed out of the plane would they be in the same time as the rest that were on the plane? if they are in the 70's with the rest of of 06, how could the people from 316 see them take a boat?

@116. Posted by: marissa - good call on widmore and the hit men. they did seem to be more interested in hindering than killing

@126. Posted by: LostedIt asked how the world will not hear about the 06 on a plane that crashes again. perhaps this was not an actual, on the records, flight. remember someone (we were told it was widmore, but i take nothing at face value) managed to arrange to have the fake 815 found with all those bodies on board. if you can make one appear, you can make one disappear

@154. Posted by: vac ... if i ever end up in court i want you for my lawyer!

#218. Posted by: surefoot at February 26, 2009 10:06 PM

GRAA, Mac.

I have to whole-heartedly believe that Ben is pure evil (not that there was much doubt in my mind before last night), but that does not necessarily mean Charles Widmore is pure good.

But Charles had a point, Ben has tried to kill Locke twice. And didn't he leave him trapped in the hatch with his leg pinned? Poor John Locke's legs...they've lost all feeling/movement, been shot, slammed by a steel door and suffered a compound fracture...I am sure I am missing something, was he ever stabbed in the leg too?

I am looking forward to seeing the hows and whys of Widmore and Hawking leaving the Island. Eloise clearly does not hold as much of a grudge against Ben as Charles does (although she knows enough not to trust him). Did Ben kill John to stop him from seeing Eloise, or did he kill him because it was the last piece of information he thought he needed to get back without Locke (surprise!)?

I am hoping the next few weeks we'll explore the backstories of each of the returnees, see why they (outside of Jack and John, who we already know) got on that plane. And of course what happened at the marina...

#219. Posted by: FenwayBen at February 26, 2009 10:22 PM

There have been a lot of questions concerning Jack and his little buddy the beard's timeline, and whether it hangs together with last night's events.

After a little back-checking, i think it does:

1. Jack and Kate are in happy-happy land on August 30, 2007 (date confirmed by Jack looking at A-Rod article in newspaper in "Something Nice Back Home"). Kate buys Jack a razor 'cuz he's getting a little stubbly.

2. Next week, Jack is called to visit Hurley b/c he's refusing his meds- Hurley delivers the "You're Not Supposed to Raise Him" line he received from Deadman Charlie.

3. Within a few days of visiting Hugo, Jack sees his father and starts banging the meds and the liquor. Stubble gets antsy.

4. 1 week later (mid Sep), Jack sabotages his relationship with Kate with the "you're not even related" line. Like Pinocchio's nose, beard immediately sustains growth spurt.

5. Next time we see Jack is in "Bentham" episode when Locke hits the hospital. Beard now enjoying mid-range growth, but Jack is still capable of talking and chewing gum at the same time.

Est time frame- two months after "Something Nice" epi. Locke tells Jack Christian says hello- like Ebenezer Scrooge, this is Jack's third spectral warning. Sign post just ahead- obsession and suicidal depression.

6. Jack spends next month using his Oceanic Golden Pass, a timeframe he confirms to Ben in "There's No Place Like Home". During this same month, (presumably) Locke recovers at hospital and is eventually discharged- a reasonable timeframe. Beard now in full-on Grizzly Adams mode.

7. Timeframe from Locke's death to "Through the Looking Glass" meeting with Kate near airport runway- 3 days.

Jack runs into Ben same night. Beard senses the end is near. Ben and Jack's Excellent Adventures last about a week and five episodes before the flight of Ajira 316.

#220. Posted by: Mizzed at February 26, 2009 10:30 PM

@217: I ♥ Benjaminlinusxx - Would teenage Walt be able to meet/see Abbadon if they were the same person?

I think the Orchid Orientation mishap that created two simultaneous instances of the same bunny shows that this is possible - as long as they do not come in direct contact with each other. Also the scene when Locke saw the light from the swan hatch the night Sawyer saw Kate and Claire served as evidence that a person can exist twice in the same time period.

Two things struck me about the Locke's scene with Walt - first was that Abaddon remarked "Boy's gotten big." - not the kind of thing he'd say unless he's seen a smaller version of Walt. The second was when he said "I'll give you two some privacy" and stepped away before Walt approached - which was not an unusual thing to do except that it does keep the possibility alive that he is Walt.

#221. Posted by: vacc at February 26, 2009 10:33 PM

I'm leaving the country for two weeks - no, really - I hope all you folks get this figured out by the time I get back . . .


I'm getting a headache just trying to keep up with the past 24 hours..

.

.

.

.

.

foom!


#222. Posted by: davidrh at February 26, 2009 10:48 PM

Did anyone else see the Lost-themed "Argyle Sweater" comic strip from today? If not, you can find it here:

www*gocomics*com/theargylesweater/

replace * with .

#223. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at February 26, 2009 11:28 PM

You guys might like this Lost funny. I think it solves all the mysteries of the island!

http://tinyurl.com/ato8ba

#224. Posted by: PiecesofArzt at February 26, 2009 11:36 PM

Just re-watched last 2 epis in reverse order...doesn't change or add much.

Little titbit I noticed fooling around with the pause button on my pvr: when Locke is preparing his suicide attempt he puts a paper bag on a table and takes out the extension cord...what's the name on the bag.....Angel's Hardware.

D & C have one hell of a sense of humor (pun intended)

#225. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at February 26, 2009 11:44 PM

Before some of you get aroused (pun also intended) I just noticed the typo and of course I meant tidbit @ 225...

#226. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at February 26, 2009 11:46 PM

@ 224. Posted by: PiecesofArzt

I guess great minds think alike... or at least like the same comic strips.

#227. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at February 27, 2009 12:08 AM

Some thoughts on Widmore:

I don't think he really wants to go back, because he could have with the freighter folk;

Don't completely trust him, "peacefully" doesn't seem to mean the same thing to him than to us reagular folk and when you think about it, as Ben, anything seems to be a means to end with him. I think his accent makes his killing a little classier.

Things that make you go hmmmm....

Wonder if Jack's grandad's name is Jacob (he seemed to know what was going on)

The 5 out of 06 getting foomed = course correction, they weren't supposed to leave so the Island is putting them back where they belong, in the 70's with Sawyer and the gang

If Sun didn't get foomed it's because she's not supposed to be there

Next episode name = Lafleur = popular french-canadian (which I am) hockey player (first name Guy, wore number 10, played for the Canadians and drove Don Cherry mad), ok back to lost, I think Lafleur will be the name of the person we saw with a bag on her head in last night's preview.


#228. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at February 27, 2009 12:10 AM


Random thoughts:

* The Others built the airstrip because someone from Ajira 316 FOOMed back and told them they would need to so that the plane could crash land, so someone from Ajira 316 could FOOM back and tell them they would need to so that...;-)

* The first time we saw an outrigger was the last time we saw Hydra Island, when Kate, Sawyer and Karl left in one.

* @ ? Shikotee - I didn't take the Sayid construction site photo as sloppy production so much as GREAT intelligence!! Think about it - with his massive worldwide resources, Widmore has an operative snap Sayid hours before he is showing the photo to Locke. Locke hops on a plane and is there the next day (or even possibly the same day) - Sayid is still working on the same roof section - makes sense to me...;-)

* Just when you thought the details couldn't get any more obscure...from Lostpedia: As Caesar flips through the Life magazine, a photograph from the 1954 film Creature from the Black Lagoon is seen on one of the pages. It depicts the Creature (known as the Gill-man) holding a woman it its arms. This woman is Julie Adams, who plays Amelia on Lost.

* Anyone have any thoughts/insight into the island moving through time relative to people moving through time? I always envisioned the island moving through time and "taking" the people with it. Now we have seen at least 3 folks FOOM back to (presumably) the 70s island and a bunch of others land on the 2008 island. What do you think this implies about when the island is? Along the same lines, we know folks FOOMed to 2008 island to find the Ajira bottle so they were there in the "present", but this was before they were "frozen" in the 70s after the donkey wheel was turned by Locke, which (presumably) stopped the skipping, which means they couldn't also be there in the "present" to find the Ajira bottle...SOOOOO hard to think this stuff through!

#229. Posted by: Caelum at February 27, 2009 2:52 AM

The office is the same one Ben is in when he has a confrontation with Alex about Karl in Season 3, I believe. (I'm pretty sure it was in the Hyrdra) It looked very familar, at least.

#230. Posted by: AK at February 27, 2009 8:49 AM

@ vacc - 154
Nice closing statement! I will definitely be calling you to be my lawyer in the future.

#231. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 27, 2009 8:52 AM

@ 231
Not that I'd need one...

#232. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 27, 2009 8:52 AM

→ 192. Posted by: Flom at February 26, 2009 7:15 PM
It bothers me that dead Locke and reincarnated Locke didn't have any of the head and face wounds he suffered during the car accident.

Not to mention the broken leg was healed too!

#233. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 9:22 AM

→ 193. Posted by: SAo_Lost at February 26, 2009 7:21 PM
Only to Post 30...so forgive me if someone has said this already.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
→ 220. Posted by: Mizzed at February 26, 2009 10:30 PM
Awesome beard recap… thank you!

#234. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 9:22 AM

→ 228. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at February 27, 2009 12:10 AM Wonder if Jack's grandad's name is Jacob (he seemed to know what was going on)
Jack calls his Grandad, “Ray” at first, then slips in a “Grandad” to add shock value, which didn’t really work.

#235. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 9:23 AM

Abaddon is not future Walt. I don't even understand why people are saying this -- because Walt and Abaddon are both dark skinned? Come on, get real.

#236. Posted by: schiano at February 27, 2009 9:23 AM

You know what’s funny. None of the O6 asked Locke, “How the F did you get to LA when we saw the freaking Island disappear right in front of our eyes?” I mean the O6 don’t know that Juliet, Sawer, et al have been FOOMING for 3 years (or 4 days, depending on who you ask). Even Degreed Jack didn’t ask questions about this?
Why is Jack so determined to find an island that he’s not sure even exists anymore. Unless Ben filled him in on how he left the island and who was left behind… but why believe a proven pathological liar as opposed to what you saw with your own eyes?

#237. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 9:26 AM

If Widmore and/or Ben have so much money, and so many resources then why don’t they just charter a private jet over the coordinates that lead to the Island? Why did Eloise have to hand Jack a thick binder full of flight information that could lead them to the Island… and circle the one that would work best. Why didn’t she just give him the info. for that ONE flight since the rest won’t work? Unnecessary drama for yo momma , that’s why.

#238. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 9:27 AM

@225. Posted by: Prosecutor67
re: Angel's Hardware

Definite double meaning - Locke going to "heaven" (ie the island), and also, a pun relating to the city "Los Angeles".


@228. Posted by: Prosecutor67
re: "I don't think he really wants to go back"

This might be the case, but not because he was not on the freighter. Widmore is a wealthy man, and he has others (pun intended) do his bidding. Could you really see him on that freighter, with all that riff-raff? He's much prefer drinking expensive booze, and have people report to him. Also, we can assume he's been searching for awhile (since his exile), and as he is used to not succeeding, why waste his time?

re: "Wonder if Jack's grandad's name is Jacob"

His name is Ray. That is what Jack calls him.

re: "Lafleur"

Vivre les habitants!
(sigh - Leafs suck!)


@229. Posted by: Caelum
re: Sayid construction site photo

There is no way that you can convince me that Sayid is such a slow worker, that he would be still working on the same basic roofing framing! With what he has to atone for, his pace would be much faster! ;)


re: "Anyone have any thoughts/insight into the island moving through time relative to people moving through time? "


When Caesar cracks the filing cabinet, after looking at the map, the next page he looks could provide more insight to how time travel in this show. Various circles are connected with lines, that are labeled "Real Time", "Imaginary Time", "Space Time", "Imaginary Space", "Imaginary Time", "Event A", "Event B", "Event C", and all sorts of other equations.

Now - we just wait until we have an episode where teacher (Hawking) will explain!

#239. Posted by: shikotee at February 27, 2009 9:28 AM

@192. Posted by: Flom
@233. Posted by: Skipper
re: reborn Locke healed

LoL! So what you are saying is - based on your experiences, when a dead guy FOOMs from a casket (this is an assumption) and comes back to life on an island, he really should have the same injuries that he had before death. Otherwise, totally unrealistic!!!

I dunno - If I'm to believe the island can re-animate him, it's not such a far stretch for me to believe it would also fix him up for the work he has to do!


@237. Posted by: Skipper
re: "How'd you get off that damn island Locke!!!"

Totally!
Or at the least, ask about how the island disappeared before there very eyes!

#240. Posted by: shikotee at February 27, 2009 9:45 AM

And by "there", I meant "their"! ;)

#241. Posted by: shikotee at February 27, 2009 9:46 AM

Just rewatched the epi and now believe even more that what I posted yesterday @56 is true...

"When Locke was having his leg realigned by the crazy Tunisian doctor, they showed a camera angle from his fuzzy viewpoint right before he passed out. There was a woman to his left. Was that Sayid's Nadia or am I crazy?"

Someone who has this on DVR, please rewatch that scene and let me know what you think.

Also I noticed that the Life magazine in the Hydra station was dated 4/15 and Helen died on 4/8. Oh, those numbers...they're everywhere!

#242. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 27, 2009 9:58 AM

242. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 27, 2009 9:58 AM

Someone who has this on DVR, please rewatch that scene and let me know what you think.

I just looked. She has a resemblance to Nadia but that is not her

#243. Posted by: BTLY at February 27, 2009 10:37 AM

I re-watched the episode and Widmore did not say he was the leader for 30 years. He said he led the group who was on the island for 30 years. His tenure may have been 10 years before being exiled.

I believe the war he mentions is the purge. But I don't think Widmore was a good guy. Executing Alex like that and then sending in Keamy and team to kill everyone on the island is not a good guy.

Interesting that both Widmore and Ben called John special and said that he has to lead. What's the deal? I presume it's Locke's destiny and whomever is his friend will have an in to the island, so both Ben and Widmore befriended him.

As for Abadan. I thought as well that he IS smokey. I really think that he either turns into smokey or is smokey's human form off the island. Remember that african lady that held Michael in the cave? There's something about it.

AND.... The four toed statue. Did anyone notice the camera zoom in on Locke's foot in the cast and show FOUR toes? I believe that statue is of Locke.

What's the deal with Kate. She seems to have a cold or something. She's had the same raspy voice with Locke as she did with Jack when she showed up in his apt. unannounced.

Hurley's reaction to Abadan was awesome. He is evil. I just hated the lack of exchange between him and Locke. That conversation could have been a highlight of the entire series but the writers blew it.

#244. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at February 27, 2009 10:49 AM

Thanks BTLY! It is such a quick flash of her. I replayed it about 5 times. You just never know what to expect with this show. Does anyone else have an opinion?

#245. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 27, 2009 11:06 AM

I'm not sure Widmore ordered the "execution" of Alex. He probably told Keamy, "get rid of Linus, whatever it takes". I'm guessing Widmore knew about Alex, but I really don't think he planned for Alex to be killed. Maybe he only found out about it after (but before Ben showed up in his bedroom telling Widmore he changes the rules).
That's why I'm really conflicted as to whether he's bad or evil.
Do we know whether Widmore was still on the Island in the 70s, and therefore is there with Jin, Kate, Jack and Hurley somwehere?
In the EW article there was an interview with Evangeline Lilly and it said she was fighting a really bad cold at the time, so that would be around the timing of filming.

#246. Posted by: Rudy at February 27, 2009 11:16 AM

a few people have asked how christian was tocuhing aaron or has christian had touch/contact with anyone after being resurrected. when miles, sawyer, claire and aaron are asleep in the jungle,after leaving otherville, claire wakes up to find aaron missing. she goes looking for him and sees christian holding/cradling aaron in his arms and smiling at him. christian than turns and smiles at claire.

#247. Posted by: tiffani at February 27, 2009 11:18 AM

Random Questions From This Season:

Was it me, or did Sun seem like she was going to kidnap Aaron back a couple of episodes ago?

Alpert tells Locke he knows they’re alive off the island, but how does HE know?

Why was Locke in a wheelchair if he was able to stand (in Tunisia before getting into Abaddon's car). I would think he would have much preferred crutches to a wheelchair. I know, parallelism and all that, just sayin'...

Thoughts on When the Ajirans Landed:

When on the island are they? Locke says "I remember dying." The logical side of me wants to believe that implies they have landed in the past, before he died off island, because the alternative implies that he did really get reincarnated/reanimated, and I'm not quite ready to believe that. I'd much rather believe he's flashed back to a time before he has died (because that's so much more realistic...ahem).

Thoughts on Proxification:

If Locke is supposed to be a proxy for Christian, as Mrs. Hawking seems to imply to Jack, who was the proxy for Locke? Does a person have to be a proxy or can it be a thing? This sounds crazy, but could Locke's letter to Jack have been a proxy for Locke? After all, they did FOOM right after Jack read the letter.

Why did they have to recreate the circumstances of flight Oceanic 815 as closely as possible, according to Mrs. Hawking? I don't get it, are they trying to fool the island or something, like, if it's approximately the same circumstances as 815 – or apPROXimately -- noone will notice?!

Thoughts on FOOMING:

It's interesting that Caeser saw the FOOM light before seeing Hurley disappear off the plane. In previous episodes it seemed like the non-FOOMERS (the FOOMIES?) did NOT notice anything before the Frosties were FOOMED.

I don't really believe my own theory (nice way to start a comment), but do we know it was Lapidus who landed the plane and who took the canoe? I think someone may have mentioned this last week, but how do we know Lapidus didn't FOOM out of the plane himself and the copilot land the plane?

Thoughts on Shoes, Feet and Toes (But Not Heads, Shoulders or Knees):

What did Jack do with Locke's shoes when he replaced them with Christian's?

In the enhanced version of The Lie, the bubbles make a point of commenting on Sawyer's shoelessness when he stepped on a needle or thorn. Wonder if that's somehow connected to Shoegate or Toegate.

Why are the Hostiles often/always without shoes?

@ALEX_ANGEL?
They didn't show Locke with four toes, did they? No way. No way. No way. WAY? You must be messing with us.

#248. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 27, 2009 11:24 AM

@146, 152, et al - I agree, mozart, Locke wasn't FOOMED back to the island because he left by the FDW, returned dead, and therefore is not subject to time jumping. The ones who FOOMED - Jack, Kate, Hurley - were sent to the 70's where Jin is also. We don't know where Sun is yet.

@154 vacc - You're just flirting with i<3blxx, aren't you? LOL Your theory could be correct, except we know Ben felt no "pain and anguish" - remember his "who cares?" comment to Locke at the Orchid. And even if Ben were all about protecting the island, we have no proof that that is a good thing. Particularly given all the people he has murdered.

@166 Richard - I like your first idea, very cool, but I don't think that's what they're doing.

@167. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx - You did not really type "leaded" instead of "led," did you? Please tell me that was my imagination.
@181 - I noticed his leg also. I think the funeral director must've taken the cast off, and the island did indeed heal his leg instantly when it brought him back to life.
@184 - I think you're right there too, but the writers are taking a lot of liberties with the time-jumping.

#249. Posted by: hurling at February 27, 2009 11:45 AM

AND.... The four toed statue. Did anyone notice the camera zoom in on Locke's foot in the cast and show FOUR toes? I believe that statue is of Locke.
@→ 244. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL

I watched that frame by frame, and I only count four toes. Excellent catch. They certainly zoomed on it long enough.
Does this mean the statue is from the future?? Is Locke's daddy Alpert?? ( a four toed ancient) What does it mean????????

#250. Posted by: mtncbn at February 27, 2009 12:43 PM

"Sphinx\, n. [L., from Gr. sfi`gx, usually derived from sfi`ggein to bind tight or together, as if the Throttler.]"

.......or, maybe 'strangle'....

Hurley+Sphinx+Locke+Linus = stangle to death? ? ?

Len

#251. Posted by: Len at February 27, 2009 1:00 PM

@locke=four toes

I was looking at the close-ups of Locke's foot as he was on the table preparing to hang himself. There's another long zoom of his toes as he walks to the table! A lot of footage(!) of his toes. I did find 2 frames on the table that may have had a fifth toe, but not conclusive.

#252. Posted by: mtncbn at February 27, 2009 1:06 PM

@ 249. Posted by: hurling at February 27, 2009 11:45 AM @146, 152, et al - I agree, mozart, Locke wasn't FOOMED back to the island because he left by the FDW, returned dead, and therefore is not subject to time jumping. The ones who FOOMED - Jack, Kate, Hurley - were sent to the 70's where Jin is also. We don't know where Sun is yet.

*****
Then how come Christian (once dead, now alive-ish) was time jumping when he told Locke to push/pull the NFDW? If you think that resurrected, formerly dead people cannot FOOM back/forward in time that would include CS.

Do you think that when Locke fell into the well, (then we saw a flash of light), he FOOMED into present time and then he saw Christian (who can only appear in present time according to post 249)?

Didn’t we establish that the well had not been build yet when Christian appeared (due to the rock cave like ceiling) which would mean that the FOOM sent Locke back in time.. then Christian appeared… which means that Christian CAN time jump too…

So explain to me why dead, resurrected, alive-ish Locke isn’t FOOMing with the rest of em?

#253. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 1:08 PM

@ 238. Posted by: Skipper
"If Widmore and/or Ben have so much money, and so many resources then why don’t they just charter a private jet over the coordinates that lead to the Island? Why did Eloise have to hand Jack a thick binder full of flight information that could lead them to the Island… and circle the one that would work best. Why didn’t she just give him the info. for that ONE flight since the rest won’t work? Unnecessary drama for yo momma , that’s why."

Yes, and apparently the island can detect fakery, or else there would definitely be short-cuts taken to painstakingly reproduce the scenario that resulted in the Oceanic crash. After all, Widmore did plant an entire fake crash site underwater (and we STILL don't know why Dan Faraday cried at that!!!). Who was the proxy for Vincent? Where is Vincent?

To whomever discovered that Locke has four toes - excellent work. I also think he will be revealed as Jacob. I can't wait to see the Collockesus of Rhodes unveiled!

#254. Posted by: Glostover at February 27, 2009 1:22 PM

@229 Caelum revealed:

>...As Caesar flips through the Life magazine, a photograph from the 1954 film Creature from the Black Lagoon is seen on one of the pages. It depicts the Creature ... holding a woman it its arms. This woman is Julie Adams, who plays Amelia on Lost.

OK, someone please remind me. Who's Amelia?

o~~~~~~

@213 vacc prophesied:

>Regardless, I know we haven't seen the last of Walt because he appears in every season finale.

Walt is the Hurly-bird!
___

>And I don't think we've seen the last of Abaddon either. We may even learn that it was him that kicked Ben's a$$ before he got on the Ajira plane.. Revenge for denting a perfectly good bullet proof vest...

Dented vests don't generally produce sprays of blood over the back window.

o~~~~~~~~~~

@223 Christine Loves Lost linked:

>Did anyone else see the Lost-themed "Argyle Sweater" comic strip from today? If not, you can find it here:

>www*gocomics*com/theargylesweater/

>replace * with .

Unfortunately, that link only works same-day. If you didn't see this Thusday, Feb 26th, you'll need to use this:

tinyurl.com/aqt4cb

Later I see PiecesofArzt posted much the same thing.

o~~~~~~~~

@236 schiano complained:

>Abaddon is not future Walt. I don't even understand why people are saying this -- because Walt and Abaddon are both dark skinned? Come on, get real.


It's certainly a necessary if not sufficient condition. I think the main thing is, with time jumping going on all sorts of interesting connections become possible, so it's interesting to speculate.

I think the main thing that that drove the specualtion was ward-attendant Abaddon and younger-shorter-pre-ghost Walt both referring to Locke as "Mr. Locke".

o~~~~~~~~~

@238 Skipper posted:

>If Widmore and/or Ben have so much money, and so many resources then why don’t they just charter a private jet over the coordinates that lead to the Island? Why did Eloise have to hand Jack a thick binder full of flight information that could lead them to the Island… and circle the one that would work best. Why didn’t she just give him the info. for that ONE flight since the rest won’t work?

I think it goes back to the possible consciousnes of the island, or perhaps the entity behind the island, which/who premits some people to approach it/him/her/them only if he/she/it/they choos(es) to let it happen.

Thus the 'street theater' of trying to re-create what worked once before. I think there's no way in Hell the island would take back just Ben, say, or just Widmore, even if they flew to the right coordinates at the right time. But add in people the island had previously shown affinity for (or near analogs of the same) and Ben may get to piggy-back on the island's gathering them in.

o~~~~~~

@244 ALEX_ANGEL wondered:

>What's the deal with Kate. She seems to have a cold or something. She's had the same raspy voice with Locke as she did with Jack when she showed up in his apt. unannounced.

I assumed is was hoarseness from crying or extreme emotional distress over whatever it was we're (Jack is) 'never supposed to ask about' concerning Aaron.

o~~~~~~~

@247 tiffani recapped:

>when miles, sawyer, claire and aaron are asleep in the jungle,after leaving
otherville, claire wakes up to find aaron missing. she goes looking for him and sees christian holding/cradling aaron in his arms and smiling at him. christian than turns and smiles at claire.

And somehow she recognizes or is told that Christian is her father, at least
accoring to Miles's report to Sawyer the next day about what he saw when she left camp.

o~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@248 Scooby-Dude queried:

>In the enhanced version of The Lie, the bubbles make a point of commenting on Sawyer's shoelessness when he stepped on a needle or thorn. Wonder if that's somehow connected to Shoegate or Toegate.

>Why are the Hostiles often/always without shoes?

A sure sign that the Dolmansaxlil Shoe Corporation hasn't yet visited this planet, and I get to press the button, Wheeeeeeeee!

P.S. No shoe shop intensifier rays were unleased in the making of this post.

#255. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 27, 2009 1:33 PM

Headline 'More Locke Footage'
four toes as he leaves Kate's.
close up as he changes seats when Abadon is shot(inconclusive)

#256. Posted by: mtncbn at February 27, 2009 1:33 PM

Doesn't it "look" like four toes because the cast hides his pinky toe?

#257. Posted by: Rudy at February 27, 2009 1:38 PM

@257
maybe. Why so many extreme close-ups?

#258. Posted by: mtncbn at February 27, 2009 1:48 PM

The island could have just let Ben die when the plane crashed… it (the Island) resurrected Locke, Let Caesar and 316ers live, FOOMED Kate, Jack, et al, but DIDN’T kill Ben … when it certainly has the power to?

If Ben is bad, why doesn’t the island just kill him?

If Widmore was good, then why wouldn’t the island just lead him back there?

#259. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 1:49 PM

TOEGATE

Either the writers have a foot fetish or the close-ups are meant to mess with us or explain to use the importance of Locke and the connection to the statue.

They did make sure we could see his toes.


#260. Posted by: ALEX_ANGEL at February 27, 2009 2:05 PM

@245/lost2theworld: "Does anyone else have an opinion (on Nadia in the Tunisian hospital)?"

The actresses vaguely resemble each other, but it is clearly not Nadia.

@248/Scooby-Dude: "Alpert tells Locke he knows they’re alive off the island, but how does HE know?"

If you believe in the "masters of time" looping theory, all these questions go away. Alpert knows because he's been down this road before...

@249/hurling: "Locke wasn't FOOMED back to the island because he left by the FDW, returned dead, and therefore is not subject to time jumping. The ones who FOOMED - Jack, Kate, Hurley - were sent to the 70's where Jin is also."

and the response @253/Skipper:

"Then how come Christian (once dead, now alive-ish) was time jumping when he told Locke to push/pull the NFDW? If you think that resurrected, formerly dead people cannot FOOM back/forward in time that would include CS.

So explain to me why dead, resurrected, alive-ish Locke isn’t FOOMing with the rest of em?"

IMO, we're trying to overcomplicate things. I don't think the island physically moved in time, b/c if it did, why wouldn't everybody have gone along for the ride (including Alpert and the Others)?

And if the island was randomly zipping along, why not go hundreds or even thousands of years back in time? Why jump around in a very specific 50 year time groove (ala Dr. Chang's record)?

Since Alpert and the others did not jump in time, then the island still exists in present time, and present time is where the Ajira survivors -Locke included- should have landed.

If they had landed back in time with Jin, the Hydra station would be staffed and operational, and there would be a lot of Dharma employees wondering why their work areas were suddenly full of moaning and groaning people.

Jack, Kate and Hurley were sent back to c. 1980 because they were needed there for an unknown purpose- hence the light and the strange disapearance from the plane.

There is a consciousness on the island- whether it is the island itself or something like Jacob- that is placing people where they need to be (sounds suspiciously like Abaddon's statement, yes?), and if you accept that argument, it's not a huge reach to view the time jumps as that "consciousness" skipping.

Now, the time flashes make sense- Jin was needed to save Rousseau, Locke needed to meet Alpert and Widmore, Faraday needed to see the H-Bomb, etc.

I don't see Christian as a living, breathing, reincarnated human being. His form is used as a manifestation of that island consciousness, allowing it to communicate to the characters in a way they can understand and relate to, just as Smokey used Yemi to communicate with Eko. Miles called Naomi's dead body "meat", so perhaps we can call Christian and Yemi "meat puppets".

As a manifestation, Christian can go anywhere at anytime that exists in that consciousness' memory- it has nothing to do with who turned the wheel, or where each of our beloved characters currently exist in time.

Why Christian? Because Jack and Locke have always been the keys, and while Locke has been a true blue believer from the start, Jack has been the obstacle- the skeptic trying hard to hold onto his previous belief system and deny the island's "truth".

What turns Jack from skeptic to believer? Multiple sightings and messages from his dead father- the only "language" the island could possibly speak that would convince Jack to accept his new role and new reality.

#261. Posted by: Mizzed at February 27, 2009 2:13 PM

@ vacc. Loved your arguments on Ben's behalf. Like you, I am not convinced yet that Ben is evil, yet...
________________________

@ 131 - Joe Pike.

You asked what they are going to do with all these newly crashed people... clearly they were running out of red shirts!
_______________________

@120 - Losted.

Regarding who is a good guy, and who is a bad guy. Wouldn't it be so much easier if they would just wear white hats and black hats!
________________________

@ those who think Walt is Abaddon.

I really don't buy this. If this were the case, I would expect much better of the casting department. Just because they are both "tan", as my 6 year old would say, does not make them the same person. Sheesh...
_________________________

Random questions:

1) How did Locke's suicide note end up in the hands of Ms. H? I think Locke put it in his back pocket. I never saw Benji take it.

2) Yes, based on the 30 year timing it seems that Penny might have been conceived on the island, but this does not mean that she was born and raised there. I suppose there is also an outside chance that Widmore took an off-Island trip (a la Ben) about 30+ years ago.

3) I was not surprised that Locke was without a scratch on the island. I agree with Shikotee, if he could be resurected, he could certainly be healed. This is fantasy folks...
I also agree he is 100% alive, the way he enjoyed that Mango seemed to prove it. Christian is totally different, he is a spirit...
________________________

I am dying to know when/where Sun and Sayid are.

************ SPOILER ALERT ***********
Based on an interview with Daniel Dae Kim, I suspect that Sun is in 2008 and will not hook up with her sweet hubby. Daniel said that although he is back on the show, that we should not expect for a reunion of Jin and Sun. (paraphrasing..) I will find it sad if Sun goes all the way back to the island just to be disappointed by not finding Jin.

*********** End Spoiler ************

re: Locke's toes

OK, everyone show their feet. We need a Toe Line-up!

#262. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 27, 2009 2:17 PM

#255 cecil rose: claire knew christian was her father before she got on the plane. she learned of his existence when her mother was in the hospital in a coma and he came by to visit. her mum's sister was there also and she and christian got into an argument because the aunt wanted him to leave. claire demanded to know what was going on and who christian was. dont recall what episode or season it was but she knew christian was her father.

#263. Posted by: tiffani at February 27, 2009 2:18 PM

→ 261. Posted by: Mizzed

Touché! and thank you for a kind, gentle explanation in terms that I can understand.

Love, Skipper

#264. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 2:21 PM

Another thing:

I think Caesar was fully aware of the island before he ever got there. As he was searching the office, he seemed to be looking for something very specific. He is taking orders from someone, most likely Widmore.

If any one of us crash landed and found an abandoned office, our search would be more slow, methodical and random. We would be searching out of curiosity only, not with a specific objective.

#265. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 27, 2009 2:31 PM

@265
I agree. He knew what he was looking for, maps, shotgun. He wasn't blown away by time travel drawings, etc. =Widmore agent.

#266. Posted by: mtncbn at February 27, 2009 2:43 PM

First time poster as I just started following the blog. I must say this is the best one out there by far! Well done Mac and Co.

First, did anyone notice how all the locations associated with this episode was in some kinda of religious context? First Locke went to see Sayid in SANTA Domingo, then saw Hurley at the SANTA Rosa hospital, then there was Los ANGELAS, then went to SANTA Clara to see Kate, and then was taken to SANTA Monica by Abbadon to the graveyard. Not sure if this means anything but it definitely reinforces the religious themes that are prevelant in this show.

Second, Im really starting to get the feeling that Ben and Widmore are the same person. They both seem to have the same agenda and I feel as if they are both playing Locke in the same exact way. Both were, as we found out from this epi, leaders of the others. I also had this idea that maybe Penny is not Widmore's real daughter after all, as she never seems to back him or support him in any way, just as Alex did not support Ben. Also, Ben and Widmore both make you feel at times they are likeable trustworthy people, but then show you that they are really crude and deceitful. Just a thought.

And in reponse to a previous post, maybe Ben didn't just kill Widmore when he was the leader and just tricked him into leaving the island because, like Locke, the island wouldnt let him die, and Ben knows this. It seems as if this is a characteristic that all of the leaders of the others have when they are on the island.

Just thought I would add to the discussion.

#267. Posted by: WeAreEverybody at February 27, 2009 2:46 PM

@253. Posted by: Skipper
Christian didn't leave by the FDW & return. He's also not really alive. I agree with Mizzed/261.

@258. Posted by: mtncbn et al
Take it from a professional klutz - usually a cast on a foot will hide the little toe. I don't think the closeups meant anything. I'm spending the next 2 seasons thinking a banana is just a banana.

#268. Posted by: hurling at February 27, 2009 2:47 PM

I watched the episode again and noticed a couple of things.

- Widmore didn't actually say he was the Others' LEADER for 30 years. He did say that he was their leader. Then a bit later he said (I'm paraphrasing a bit) "....we peacefully kept the island safe for 3 decades....". I might be nit-picking, but maybe he was there for 3 decades, not necessarily the leader. Maybe he was being mentored, or plotting an overthrow, or ????

- re: Locke's murder was pre-meditated by Ben. Did anyone else wonder why Ben came equipped with a bottle of Windex & rubber gloves? Hotel rooms don't usually come equipped with those things.

Remember the little girl Ben was friends with at Dharma-school? Possibly Charlotte? Possibly Penny?

#269. Posted by: shannon at February 27, 2009 2:54 PM

Losties travelled back 1.5 million years? ;)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090227/sc_nm/us_footprint_ancient_2

#270. Posted by: LostedIt at February 27, 2009 3:04 PM

269 posts!?!

I am sooo behind.

#271. Posted by: berkyo at February 27, 2009 3:10 PM

******************)))

I'm gonna guess that Ben will eventually come up with a way to explain why he killed Locke - "You could not kill yourself, but you had to die. I had to do that to you, otherwise, you'd have hanged yourself for no reason!" Or something to that effect. "I was helping you by killing you!"

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%))))

#272. Posted by: Mr Naysayer at February 27, 2009 3:11 PM

→ 272. Posted by: Mr Naysayer

You're totally right, Ben's gonna say, "I have to kill you, John. It was the only way I could save the Island." Then his eyes will explode.

#273. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 3:15 PM

LOL-----I am at post 18 and I wondering .....hmmmmm .....where did the plane land?????? It's gonna be a long night.

#274. Posted by: berkyo at February 27, 2009 3:16 PM

I dislike the whole concept of multiple time periods(main island in 1970s and Hydra in 2005?).
I was thinking there has to be an alternative explanation/theory on the inconsistency time jumping rules.
We have been led to believe that the 815ers have been jumping in time. What if it is really jumping "in place?" Place, meaning a re-creation of specific time and location.
This avoids all paradox, course corrections, because it is not actually part of the real time line.
Since the show is at its supernatural fantasy stage, each FOOM would be resetting the maze for our lab mice (human beings) to conquer, adapt, overload and/or bleed out.
For those who believe that this is Dante's Club Med for the Damned, the time skips may be just different levels of hell (causing each participant the pain, agony, confusion, frustration and fear = punishment).

#275. Posted by: welh at February 27, 2009 3:17 PM

→ 273. Posted by: Skipper

I meant to type I HAD to kill you...not HAVE.

It would be great if we could go back and edit our old posts. I would change all of mine to predict things that actually happened in the show....then I'd say, "see how smart and connected I am to this show?" Then you'd all be jealous b/c it would appear that I knew things in an "Ealgumby-knowing" sort of way.

#276. Posted by: Skipper at February 27, 2009 3:19 PM

@269. Posted by: shannon
re: "Widmore didn't actually say he was the Others' LEADER for 30 years. "

Exactly. Feel free to visit post 134 for the entire dialogue.

Widmore says - "They're not the others to me. They're my people. We protected the island, peacefully, for more than 3 decades. But then - I was exiled - by him - just as you were.

#277. Posted by: shikotee at February 27, 2009 3:23 PM

@ "First Locke went to see Sayid in SANTA Domingo, then saw Hurley at the SANTA Rosa hospital, then there was Los ANGELAS, then went to SANTA Clara to see Kate, and then was taken to SANTA Monica by Abbadon to the graveyard. Not sure if this means anything but it definitely reinforces the religious themes that are prevelant in this show."

posted by WeAreEverybody

Maybe the writers just REALLY like Christmas!!! ;-) (No, seriously, that is a good catch...) Add to it Angels Hardware. They are clubbing us over the head with this stuff.
_________________________________

@ 270. Posted by: LostedIt re: Zee footprints.

Very cool article, thanks for sharing.

#278. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 27, 2009 3:39 PM

→ 274 berkyo posted I am...wondering....hmmmmm .....where did the plane land??????

I think if you had watched the episode carefully you would've seen a runway with "Jughead" writ large on it in Red Pain...

Jughead Was The Runway...JWTR

#279. Posted by: ransomjackson at February 27, 2009 4:24 PM

→ 81. Posted by: Christina
what the significance of Jack not reading Locke's letter right away has to do with anything?
→ 248. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
This sounds crazy, but could Locke's letter to Jack have been a proxy for Locke? After all, they did FOOM right after Jack read the letter
→ 262. Posted by: Lost in ca
How did Locke's suicide note end up in the hands of Ms. H?

There certainly was a reason why the letter had to go with the plane. Anyone else would have just read the thing right away. But there’s all that drama to get it to Jack, back to Locke and then back to Jack. Then, when he’s about to read it on the plane, Ben jumps up to give Jack "privacy". Did Ben know the letter existed? Did he know something (FOOM) would happen when the letter was opened? At first I thought Ben was worried that the letter might somehow implicate him in Locke's death. But maybe it was simply TPTB's way of moving him to somewhere else on the plane during the FOOM.

And why did Frank take the plane’s manifest?? Hmmmm, the list of passengers. Those darn lists.

And, possibly reinforcing or clubbing us with more religious over/undertones, perhaps Jack changing Locke's shoes was a metaphor for washing his feet. Ok, maybe a stretch.

#280. Posted by: lovelost at February 27, 2009 4:27 PM

When Charles Widmore tells John that he was exiled by "him" he never says it was Ben. John is the one that said "Who, Ben, he wasn't even there." I kind of think Widmore was talking about Jacob/Richard exiling him.

Also in the previews for next week they say something about a twist: what if Penny is the one in the hood? Wouldn't that freak everyone out?

Maybe Ben didn't kill her/or couldn't kill her but did something to little Charlie to make her go to the island?

That would make Des want to go back to the island, wouldn't it?

#281. Posted by: LostMamacita at February 27, 2009 4:49 PM

@270 LostedIt relayed:

>Losties travelled back 1.5 million years? ;)

>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090227/sc_nm/us_footprint_ancient_2

When I was a boy, my father once took by brothers and I on a hoike out into
the back woods of the county we grew up in (Colbert, Alabama, USA). We went there to see something he'd heard of.

Set in a wooded hillside there was a recess in the rock - not a cave, exactly, but just an overhang with a sandy 'floor' that was protected from the elements. Such areas were popular with pre-historic folk that couldn't build their own shelter - protected, out of the wind and rain, and easier to defend from enemies.

There was a slab of stone apparently peeled off from the back wall of that overhang. Now, bear in mind that the first humans were thought to have come to the North American continent 20-30,000 years ago, although some more recent archaelogical discoveries have pushed that back a bit.

There in this slab of rock were fossilized footprints.

Human-looking footprints.

With FOUR TOES.

True story.


#282. Posted by: Cecil Rose at February 27, 2009 4:54 PM

"And, possibly reinforcing or clubbing us with more religious over/undertones, perhaps Jack changing Locke's shoes was a metaphor for washing his feet. Ok, maybe a stretch."

→ 280. Posted by: lovelost

I don't know that your theory is a stretch. I thought something similar, I also think maybe this is the reason for all of the "foot" closeups. In many religions and cultures feet are important.
___________________________

Um.. I don't think Locke's note could have ever implicated Ben. By the time Jonn knew Ben was his killer it was too late to write a note about it... he he
___________________________

Im even afraid to say this... but am I the only chick here who thought that John was looking quite handsome all cleaned up? I am afraid I'm turning into ILBLXX... I need some more Sawyer scenes to set me straight.

#283. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 27, 2009 4:57 PM

@279: ransomjackson - Ha! The only thing that could have been more cool would be for Ben to have Foomed face-down on the runway.

@154: vacc - Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I would respectfully disagree with the defendant's (one Mr. Linus) lawyer's claim of innocence based on one simple fact - Who decided that either Mr. Widmore or Mr. Linus have to be on opposing sides of good and bad? Why can't they both be bad guys going after the same prize while a third (or fourth, or fifth) party is in fact on the side of good? With that fact put into the equation, I would submit that Ben is in fact the evil sniveling self-serving bug-eyed weasel he otherwise appears to be. Remove the fact that one must be good so that the other can be bad and you're left with Mr. Linus coming off smelling like anything but a rose. He has already demonstrated a complete lack of care for the welfare of anyone that isn't a part of his plan (ie: the other passengers aboard flight 316 not part of the O5, all of the people aboard the freighter, and numerous other instances). I rest my case.

#284. Posted by: LostedIt at February 27, 2009 5:02 PM

@255 Cecil Rose gasped:

"OK, someone please remind me. Who's Amelia?"

She was an internationally famous aviatrix who disappeared while flying over the island in 1937, or if you just want the bland version, she was one of the Others at the book club meeting in Tale of Two Cities.

#285. Posted by: Caelum at February 27, 2009 6:14 PM

@ 225 Prosecutor67, re: Angel's Hardware

Another Angel and D&C connection - "Angel" was the name of a character (played by Tracey Walter) on the D&C-produced police drama/comedy series "Nash Bridges".

The character - a naive, happy-go-lucky, mystically enlightened male hippie hobo dressed in a winged angel costume - personified on that show the same questions of fate vs. free will that plague Locke in this episode, and was characterized by his habitually supplying the main character with a cryptic, non-response kind of advice that proposed that all one does is predetermined rather than the result of one's own choices.

I'd say that sounds all too familiar seeing as that's how the island's more mystically inclined luminaries often talk as well.

#286. Posted by: Lowangen at February 27, 2009 6:47 PM

? 262. Lost in ca
3) I was not surprised that Locke was without a scratch on the island. I agree with Shikotee, if he could be resurected, he could certainly be healed. This is fantasy folks...
I also agree he is 100% alive, the way he enjoyed that Mango seemed to prove it. Christian is totally different, he is a spirit...


-- how come it didn't grow his hair back too?

#287. Posted by: Gumbo at February 27, 2009 7:11 PM

with this many posts, my apologies for not identifying who made the point...

but Christian arrived on the island in a a casket, as Locke did. Locke doesn't appear to be dead, and Christian didn't either.

Is there any chance the writers show how Christian came and left the island? We know he came back on Oceanic.

Locke is alive. Christian is alive.

And, somebody pointed out a potential Penny being hooded in next week's episode? My DVR stopped recording, anyone else notice this?

Thanks

#288. Posted by: Steve at February 27, 2009 7:31 PM

Continuity error... the piece of fruit had a supermarket sticker. It said -

"JWTM"

- Jughead Was The Mango -

#289. Posted by: ANON2 at February 27, 2009 7:32 PM

@ vacc 154 & Lost edit 284 & ilovebenlinusxxx (i forget the post number)

We'll be having interviews for prosecutors in april up here in "La belle province"

You guys should apply....

Also, a frame by frame analysis of locke's foot while on the table (can't believe I made such an analysis) clearly recvaled a fifth toe

#290. Posted by: Prosecutor67 at February 27, 2009 8:21 PM

@ALEX-ANGEL 260
I vote foot fetish

@Lost in ca 262
We need a Toe Line-up!

Is that like a candy lineup?

Locke with 4 toes seems a bit over the top. I'm going with him having 5 little piggies. After all, he needed the fifth one to go "Wee! Wee! Wee!" all the way home.

I feel like we're losing track of the (psuedo) science behind the island/Frosties' FOOMING. I thought it had to do with the donkey wheel formerly known as the frozen donkey wheel having slipped off its axis.

Back on the religious themes topic, it was suggested (by Lostpedia, not me) that Jack diving in and then rising out of the pond symbolized a baptism of sorts. One could say the same thing for Charlotte if one were inclined to say those sorts of things.

OK, rant time. Did anyone else besides me HATE the whole H-bomb storyline? We have a great island with mysteries, intriguing characters with mostly interesting backstories, and now suddenly there's an H-bomb in play?! Isn't that a bit much? OK, end rant.

#291. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 27, 2009 8:49 PM

"how come it didn't grow his hair back too?"

→ 287. Posted by: Gumbo

Good one... but as we've seen in flashbacks, he doesn't look good in hair. The island obviously has some sense of style.. ;)

#292. Posted by: Lost in ca at February 27, 2009 8:59 PM

Someone earlier mentioned Hurley's warning (from dream Charlie) in season 4 Ep 10: "You're not supposed to raise him, Jack." That line seems to hold new meaning now...In the context of the episode in which Hurley said it, it seemed to refer to raising baby Aaron. In the comments, Bunnylover suggested that maybe the message meant Jack wasn't supposed to raise his father from the grave.


But now, it seems that the message could have been referring to raising Locke from the dead. So was Jack "supposed" to raise Locke (and therefore get a ticket back to the island) or not?

#293. Posted by: Susie at February 27, 2009 9:02 PM

i just watched the new episode a few minutes ago, im always late to post & i guess all the relevant points have been posted, but i would like to add a few of my own thoughts -
1- the writers & producers of lost have created a psychological jig-saw puzzle on tv for us to solve with some or most of the pieces missing.
2-never over think a puzzle in lost (in the end we are usualy wrong)

#294. Posted by: san at February 27, 2009 9:14 PM

@291/Scooby-Dude:

"Did anyone else besides me HATE the whole H-bomb storyline? We have a great island with mysteries, intriguing characters with mostly interesting backstories, and now suddenly there's an H-bomb in play?!"

Initially I thought the same thing. But just as last epi contained several Star Wars references, I think this might be a reference to Stephen King's The Stand.

D&C have already cited The Stand as one of the biggest influences on Lost- during development they jokingly called it Stand on an Island.

In the Stand, a plague wipes out most of mankind, and the remaining survivors find themselves receiving dreams and visions that lead them either to an Old Testament-style prophet named Mother Abagail, or a reincarnated demon-human named Randall Flagg.

Essentially, normal everyday characters suddenly find themselves thrust in the middle of the eternal war between good and evil. To stop Flagg and his followers, the good guys must sacrifice themselves in an end plot that involves the "Hand of God" and a nuclear bomb. (The book is much better than I just made it sound).

I kinda hope I'm wrong, but there is a possibility that the impending catastrophe that the Lost survivors are jumping through so many predestined hoops to stop may actually be the destruction of the Island via our pal Jughead.

If that's the case, it brings us back to what is the island, how it does it relate to the rest of the earth, and can either survive with out each other.

On a mildly related note, what is behind the choice of the name Matthew Abaddon?

Matthew is an apostle and one of the evangelists, Abaddon is a force of destruction often linked to Satan, and both are referenced in the Book of Revelation. Good/evil, black/white, the end of days, humpty dumpty sat on a wall.......

#295. Posted by: Mizzed at February 27, 2009 9:14 PM

#218 ealgumby
I've never seen csi or ncis; I used the term "ligature marks" because that is what they are called.

#296. Posted by: undaunted at February 27, 2009 9:24 PM

@ 295 mizzed
i know what you mean,its ok to draw on influences from other shows but stay true to what -this show is all about- i played all the myst games on the pc, lost reminds me of it a little.

#297. Posted by: san at February 27, 2009 9:24 PM

Former potus Bush's take on lost:

There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, it's probably in Tennessee - that says, foom me once, shame on ... shame on you. It foom me. We can't get foomed again."

#298. Posted by: blob at February 27, 2009 10:41 PM

@ Cecil Rose - 255
"OK, someone please remind me. Who's Amelia?"

She was the one of the member's of Ben/Juliet's book club. She appeared in the season primere of season 3, "A Tale of Two Cities".

http://tinyurl.com/bdk33a

@ Skipper - 259
"If Ben is bad, why doesn’t the island just kill him?"

Maybe it wanted him to suffer?

@ hurling - 268
"I don't think the closeups meant anything."

Everything means SOMETHING.

@ shannon - 269
"re: Locke's murder was pre-meditated by Ben. Did anyone else wonder why Ben came equipped with a bottle of Windex & rubber gloves? Hotel rooms don't usually come equipped with those things."

Yes, I thought this too. But then I thought maybe he went out and got the supplies, since he didn't come with anything but himself when he first arrived at Locke's hotel room. I guess he knew that nobody would be looking for him, and therefore was able to risk it by leaving.

@ Mr Naysayer - 272
"I'm gonna guess that Ben will eventually come up with a way to explain why he killed Locke - "You could not kill yourself, but you had to die. I had to do that to you, otherwise, you'd have hanged yourself for no reason!" Or something to that effect. "I was helping you by killing you!""

I agree. He has a way of "winging things". He is awsome at coming up with things off the top of his head.

Where have you been? You're starting to show up like boozy! =P

@ Skipper - 273
"Then his eyes will explode."

HAHAHA!!!!

#299. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 27, 2009 10:44 PM

The losties (specifically the O6, Locke, Widmore, RA, and Ben) have serious communication issues.

#300. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 27, 2009 10:46 PM

@ Lost in ca - 283
"I am afraid I'm turning into ILBLXX... I need some more Sawyer scenes to set me straight."

It's okay to be like me! (As long as you don't love Ben).

#301. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 27, 2009 10:49 PM

as i predicted in the blog for "316" - we would either never see condolences guy again - or - he would feature heavily, he even has a name now "ceasar"

#302. Posted by: san at February 27, 2009 10:58 PM

@ Prosecutor67 - 290
"We'll be having interviews for prosecutors in april up here in "La belle province"

You guys should apply...."

Sure, I totally would. -- if this Canadian area would consider hiring a high school senior that hasn't even attended law school but plans on practicing law in the New Jersey - New York area of the United States around 2016.

#303. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 27, 2009 10:58 PM

@ ealgumby
I'm a big CSI fan too!!! I regularly watch NY and Vegas.

I heard NCIS was good, but I never watched it.

#304. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at February 27, 2009 11:01 PM

@The losties (specifically the O6, Locke, Widmore, RA, and Ben) have serious communication issues.
→ 300. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx

Duh
and all the rest too!

#305. Posted by: mtncbn at February 28, 2009 12:56 AM

305 posts ????
This is gonna take forever.....

Let me say - in case I never catch up - I really liked the episode and Mac's Summary and maybe it's my fault that this blog is so long. I have been recommending it to friends and relatives who have called me and said "What the hell is going on in Lost???" So I sent them here.

See you next week.

#306. Posted by: berkyo at February 28, 2009 7:38 AM

Oh! And you know what would be good? A place marker so I know where I left off.

#307. Posted by: berkyo at February 28, 2009 7:40 AM

@220 Mizzed: "6. Jack spends next month using his Oceanic Golden Pass, a timeframe he confirms to Ben in "There's No Place Like Home". During this same month, (presumably) Locke recovers at hospital and is eventually discharged- a reasonable timeframe. Beard now in full-on Grizzly Adams mode."

This is the part of the timeline I disagree with you on. When Locke is in Jack's hospital, his head is covered in abrasions. These same abrasions are on his head when he goes to hang himself, so it couldn't be more than a few days after he spoke to Jack in the hospital. This isn't enough time for Jack to be flying around for a month trying to crash, or grow the full-on beard. The only plausible explaination I can think of is that a good amount of time must pass between the time Locke is killed and when his body is actually found, giving Jack plenty of time to continue his path into despair, and grow the beard.

When Jack sees Locke in the hospital, he didn't seem at all interested in trying to get back to the island, even with Locke's bit of info about Christian Shephard. So something (we haven't seen yet) must happen to Jack after Locke leaves the hospital that convinces him they "HAVE TO GO BACK!!!," and he begins taking those flights. When they don't get him back, he must realize that Locke has the answers, and that Locke was right, but his pride keeps him from finding Locke to find out how to get back. Then he reads the obit, and comes to the realization that he now will probably never be able to get back without Locke. So he tries to jump off the bridge, but the island won't let him. He goes to the funeral home to verify that Locke is dead, but still doesn't have the courage to open the casket, to face Locke and admit he was wrong. He attempts to get Kate to believe him, but that doesn't work either. Ironically, it isn't until BEN shows up that Jack's hope is restored.

#308. Posted by: Stocky at February 28, 2009 8:56 AM

→ 307. Posted by: berkyo at February 28, 2009 7:40 AM
Oh! And you know what would be good? A place marker so I know where I left off.

I was thinking the same thing. I usually try to stop at a good even numbered stopping point (like post #50, 100, 150, 200) so that I can find my place easily when I return. But sometimes when the readin' gets good, I just can't stop....then I'm screwed and never remember where I left off.

#309. Posted by: Skipper at February 28, 2009 10:07 AM

Charles Widmore's Plan for Dharma Initiative 2.0

We haven't yet seen the backstories of how five of the Oceanic six plus found themselves on the same Ajira 316 flight, but last year I posted a theory detailing how many of the Oceanic 815 might have been maniuplated onto the flight. Here is a revised version of that post. I now propose that it was a vast conspiracy led by Charles Widmore and other member of the Dharma Initiative to get all of the 815 passengers on the flight and to the island for the purpose of ousting Ben and restarting Dharma Initiative activities on the island. In this theory, Abaddon isn't the only one whose job is to make sure people are where they're supposed to be. Other suspects besides Abaddon include:

Christian
Sam Austen
Kelvin
Mr. Paik
Libby
Richard Malkin
Isaac of Uluru (Rose's Australian faith healer)
Brian Porter

Here are my proposals for how the Losties were maniuplated onto flight 815 and by whom:

Jack: Goes to Australia to bring "dead" father back to L.A.
Suspect: Christian, who might have pulled the ole dead Locke trick on Jack.

Kate: Marshal catches her in Australia and puts her on 815.
Suspect 1 – Marshall
Suspect 2 – Sam Austen, Kate's adoptive father, who taught her how to track and has met Sayid and Kelvin. Also, he may have given the toy Oceanic Airplines plane to Kate, which was a factor in the series of events that brought Kate to Australia.

Sayid: Recruited by Australian intelligence and the CIA to infiltrate a terrorist cell in Sydney, then given ticket to LA.
Suspect 1: CIA agent Cole, who told him Nadia was living in Irvine, CA.
Suspect 2: Kelvin, who was connected with Sam Austen in the military and taught Sayid inerrogation methods, telling him he would find these skills useful sometime in the future.

Jin: On business trip to Sydney and Los Angeles for Mr. Paik.
Suspect: Mr. Paik, who would have planned the trip on 815.

Sun: On business trip with Jin to Sydney and Los Angeles.
Suspect: Mr. Paik

Hurley: Gets lottery numbers implanted in brain by Leonard at Santa Rosa, then, after winning, is told by Leonard he had "opened the box." Goes to Australia to meet Sam Tooney, Leonard's friend from the Navy, where Sam's wife tells him that Sam and Leonard had first heard the numbers at a Navy listening station in the South Pacific.
Suspect 1: Leonard
Suspect 2: Sam Toomey and/or his wife
Suspect 3: Libby, who was also at Santa Rosa during the Leonard's time there

Claire: Four months after psychic Richard Malkin tells Claire she has to raise her baby herself, he reverses himself and ultimately convinces her to give her child up for adoption to a couple in L.A. who were "good people."
Suspect 1: Richard Malkin
Suspect 2: Christian?

Aaron: See Claire.
Suspects: Malkin or Christian

Locke: Abaddon suggests walkabout, Locke goes to Australia, told he can’t go on walkabout because of his wheelchair. Books flight home on 815.
Suspect: Abaddon

Sawyer: Tricked into going to Australia by partner Hibbs. Arrested after bar fight and ordered deported to America (don't know if it's the same bar where he met Christian or not).
Suspect 1: Christian Shephard
Suspect 2: Hibbs

Rose: Goes with Bernard to Isaac of Uluru, a faith healer in Australia, who says he lives above a geological place of power but can't heal her because she is in the "wrong place."
Suspect: Isaac of Uluru

Bernard: Takes Rose to faith healer in Australia.
Suspect: Isaac of Uluru

Michael, Walt and Vincent: Told by Brian Porter that Susan, Walt's mother, has died and he should come to Australia to take custody of Walt (and then also takes Vincent)
Suspect: Brian Porter, who offers Michael the plane tickets to and from Sydney.

Dead characters:

Eko: Investigates Charlotte Malkin's death and resurrection in Australia. Is approached by a man who provides a passport for Eko to travel to L.A. Don't recall the reason.
Suspect 1: Charlotte Malkin
Suspect 2: Richard Malkin
Suspect 3: Mystery passport man

Ana Lucia: Convinced by Christian Shephard to accompany him to Australia as his bodyguard. Leaves him suddenly and books ticket home.
Suspect: Christian Shephard

Libby: Unknown why in Australia or on the flight.
Suspect: Herself. She features in Hurley's backstory, plus just up and gives Desmond a boat. Very suspicious.

Charlie: Flies to Sydney to convince Liam to re-form Driveshaft. Liam refuses and Charlie buys return ticket on 815.
Suspect: Unknown or Liam.

In conclusion, much as we've seen how Jack and Sun -- but not yet Kate, Hurley or Sayid – were manipulated to take Ajira flight 316, there is also evidence that the passengers on flight 815 could have been manipulated onto that flight, in that case possibly overseen by Widmore via a previous window of time supplied by Mrs. Hawking.

#310. Posted by: Scooby-Dude at February 28, 2009 10:51 AM

New Dhaka mutiny mass graves found

Did anyone else read this news headline, and have their mind insert the word Dharma??

#311. Posted by: mtncbn at February 28, 2009 11:33 AM

@296/undaunted: “I've never seen csi or ncis; I used the term ‘ligature marks’ because that is what they are called.”

Fair enough; I guess I prejudicially assumed your usage of the word arose from familiarity with the forensics shows, as with myself. While not a devoted fan, I do catch them now and again, and usually enjoy watching when I do. However, they do tend to be very repetitive in terms of format and lexicon, especially the CSI programs … sample dialogue you might find, fresh from the top of my head:

Investigator #1: “What do we have?”
Investigator #2: “Oh, we have a lot …”
#1: “Probative?”
#2: “Ligature striations on wrists and ankles, epithelial tissue under the nails, proximal contusions … what do you think?”
#1: “Lividity?”
#2: “Hard to tell for sure until autopsy, but at least several hours.”
#1: “Trace?”
#2: “Let’s find out!”
[cue music … something edgy but subdued, maybe BRMC or Radiohead … the investigators hunt around with UV lamps, spray luminol, scrape cast-off splatter from floors/walls, swab various items, and pick up tiny fibers with tweezers … yadda yadda yadda]

… and so it goes.

If you ever happen to see one of these shows, you’ll know what I mean … I guarantee at least one of the completely valid, but relatively uncommon, bits of terminology I threw in above will be used before the end of the show … like clockwork, it is!

No offense intended …

#312. Posted by: ealgumby at February 28, 2009 2:28 PM

It seems to me like the Ajira 316 are going to develop like the Oceanic 815 survivors (Caesar=Jack, Ilana=Kate). I’m wondering if we follow the Ajira survivors more if we see other similarities. This almost makes you wonder if this is all a viscous cycle. Will the Oceanic survivors become “The Others” to the Ajira survivors?

#313. Posted by: opserc at February 28, 2009 3:20 PM

Remember when Widmore told Locke something like, "I won't let anything happen to you"....? Surely news of Abaddon's death and Locke's car accident reached Widmore. Why didn't he come help Locke or send Locke another driver/body guard? Thoughts?

#314. Posted by: Skipper at February 28, 2009 3:37 PM

I'm up to post 60. I had to re watch because of those 60 posts. i wonder how many times I will watch the episode?

#315. Posted by: berkyo at February 28, 2009 4:14 PM

@ 315-berkyo
im going to re-watch it soon as well,- so much info to digest in 48mins,i try to read all the posts in here but im guessing this weeks one will hit the 500 posts mark,i sometimes feel like im going blind if i try to read too many posts in one go, macs review was very good, loved the jaw droppin comment.

#316. Posted by: san at February 28, 2009 4:44 PM

@ 284. Posted by: LostedIt

"Who decided that either Mr. Widmore or Mr. Linus have to be on opposing sides of good and bad? Why can't they both be bad guys going after the same prize while a third (or fourth, or fifth) party is in fact on the side of good?"

I agree. I posted something similar recently. Widmore and Linus were "ousted" from the island or could not sucessfully lead the island because of their less than honorable intentions. It will eventually be revealed that Locke and/or Jack are truly meant to lead the island. Locke is too obvious of a choice. That's where they've been leading us so there will have to be some kind surprise.

Could Locke's role as a man of faith be to bring Jack over from science to faith. Didn't he kind of do that in LA?I still believe too that there will be some connection between Granddad Ray, Christian, Jack and Aaron and control of the island. Sorry ILBLXX, I think that Jack may end up being the man, heavy breathing and all.

#317. Posted by: lost2theworld at February 28, 2009 4:47 PM

→ 84. Posted by: Ally

I have just had a deja vu thing!

I swear I have read this very same post before. I knew what she was going to say!

It was the weirdest sensation. And reading about time loops has given me the creeps. I'm off to make dinner and prob watch the episode again with my daughter tonight.
Spooky!

#318. Posted by: berkyo at February 28, 2009 5:03 PM

@223. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost: "Did anyone else see the Lost-themed 'Argyle Sweater' comic strip from today? "

@224. Posted by: PiecesofArzt: "You guys might like this Lost funny. I think it solves all the mysteries of the island!

http://tinyurl.com/ato8ba"

@255/Cecil Rose: “I see PiecesofArzt posted much the same thing.”

Oh, SO funny! : )

And more importantly … now we know who Adam and Eve are … Thurston and Lovey Howell! ;)

#319. Posted by: ealgumby at February 28, 2009 5:07 PM

Still chuckling ...

Don't worry about those flaming arrows, little buddy! I've gotchAHHuHH!

#320. Posted by: ealgumby at February 28, 2009 5:17 PM

→ 281. Posted by: LostMamacita
Also in the previews for next week they say something about a twist: what if Penny is the one in the hood? Wouldn't that freak everyone out?


Hey LostMamacita, What's up? Hope you're having a good weekend. Not sure what show you're watching but the man in the hood was revealed last week. it was.....wait for it........Kojak. Just kidding, it was Locke, silly!

#321. Posted by: Skipper at February 28, 2009 7:38 PM

→ 321. Posted by: Skipper
"Not sure what show you're watching but the man in the hood was revealed last week. it was.....wait for it........Kojak. Just kidding, it was Locke, silly!"

Pretty sure LostMamacita was referring to the woman with a gunny-sack over her head in the preview for next week, not the hooded guy on the beach.

#322. Posted by: susie at February 28, 2009 7:49 PM

i just watched this episode again, it seems clearer than ever that locke wants to be "the chosen one" - i beleive he is a pawn for evil ruthless men like ben & widmore to use whichever way the choose, lockes desire to be special helps them to manipulate him.

#323. Posted by: san at February 28, 2009 8:21 PM

@161/Scooby-Dude: "Lostpedia: Caesar finds Faraday's map to the Tempest and a page of his journal. OK, I'll buy that."

Just started my FBF analysis of the epi, and yes, Caesar DOES find not only Faraday's map and notebook page, but Ben's map as well (which he quickly overlooks) ... interestingly (maybe?) Ben's map has a different logo for the Temple (unless Faraday's map doesn't really show the Temple, but some other Dharma station nearby, but just farther south?).

Anyway ... as many others have suggested thus far, Caesar is *clearly* looking for something in particular within the office, rather than just scrounging ... which makes him either a Ben or Widmore goon. Fine. Just thought it rather "convenient" that the first folder he pulled from two cabinets full of files would hold something of interest ... unless EVERY file does so as well! ;)

IMO, they could've had him rummage for a minute or two at least, just to project somewhat of an aura of believability upon this ... As someone who has wasted hours upon hours looking for "what I was looking for" through files (computer or paper) more times than I can count, and very often finding what I was looking for in the very last place I thought to look (although I realize "I found it in the last place I looked" is redundant!), I found Caesar's immediate discovery a little hard to swallow ... unless of course the island put it there for him to find!

#324. Posted by: ealgumby at February 28, 2009 8:55 PM

@111/shikotee: "It is interesting to note that the sawed off shotgun is attached to the bottom of a desk, which is facing a door."

Of no importance, I'm sure, but it is not facing any door.

#325. Posted by: ealgumby at February 28, 2009 9:08 PM

@ 281. LostMamacita
"Also in the previews for next week they say something about a twist"
Where did you see this preview - I searched the ABC/Lost website but couldn't find it.
Also, for you number gurus out there: the truck that Widmore sends to pick up Locke has a license plate with the numbers 3426346. Any thoughts?

#326. Posted by: kevinb at February 28, 2009 9:24 PM

Probably doesn't matter (wha? ... some well-placed plot piece on Lost doesn't matter?), but ...

The skull on the desk is NOT a polar bear skull ... not sure WHAT it is, but not a polar bear ... unless they suddenly grew two pairs of incisors!

Seems to be a "four-toed" cousin of the polar bear, so to speak, which has double sets of incisors ... hmm.

Damn ... hate to interject yet another new line of thought here, but ...

Could the 4-toed human statue and double-incisored polar bear represent a potential alternative evolutionary line?

Like I said, I feel like there've been too many unconfirmed theories to date already ... but ... correct me if I'm wrong, but I know of no other double-incisored predators on the planet, right (okay, maybe snakes)? So what could the skull be from? ... Looks very much like a polar bear skull, except for the extra set of fangs!

Could be another very obscure clue ala the 4-toed statue ... or yet another production error?

#327. Posted by: ealgumby at February 28, 2009 9:27 PM

→ 322. Posted by: susie at February 28, 2009 7:49 PM
Pretty sure LostMamacita was referring to the woman with a gunny-sack over her head in the preview for next week, not the hooded guy on the beach.

Ah, gotcha, thanks for clearing that up!


#328. Posted by: Skipper at March 1, 2009 8:54 AM

...the parallel universe/reality theory has come up several times before. The question isn't just "when" are the Losties, but also "in which reality"? If they introduce Hugh Everett III as a character - then we'll know...

#329. Posted by: SonnyESQ at March 1, 2009 9:35 AM

It just occurred to me that Richard Alpert exhibits all the behaviors of the successful bureaucrat. Something very Borgian, Machiavellian about his persona.

Ostensibly, he does not seek to wield power, he wishes only to serve those in power. Yet, he is responsible for some pivotal decisions made by the "leader". Most obviously, the death of The Man From Tallahassee.

So if Alpert is the manipulative, self serving bureaucrat then he will shift alliance to the one who assures his continued place at the right hand of the one in power.

Ben told Locke "Fate is a fickle bitch". For Ben it is. For Locke it is, for Widmore it is, for Desmond it is...but for Alpert it isn't. As far as we have seen, Alpert is the only constant in all of it. Even Jacob's position is in jeopardy, while Alpert firmly remains in his position of counselor and guide.

I realize it might be that Alpert is truly a loyal and devoted servant of Jacob and everything he does is for Jacob.

Still...I'm keeping my eye on the fellow named for Richard Alpert aka Baba Ram Dass, whose most famous book is "Be Here Now" and whose name "Ram Dass" means servant of God.

#330. Posted by: undaunted at March 1, 2009 9:55 AM

I had noticed on rewatch what the post 161 by Scooby-Dude stated
"Lostpedia: Caesar finds Faraday's map to the Tempest and a page of his journal."

I recognized Faraday's musings on imaginary space and remembered the screenshot from last season. The question is did Faraday LEAVE copies in the past or FIND them there?


#331. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at March 1, 2009 10:51 AM

I'm still wondering if Jacob is stuck between dimensions or time. It seems probable that he is imprisoned, but was he put wherever he is on purpose or is he there due to an accident (or incident)?

#332. Posted by: undaunted at March 1, 2009 10:54 AM

Another issue my husband and I were pondering is about Ben. Is he such a good manipulator and liar that he NEVER heard Jacob at all but faked it the whole time and was not rightfully the leader?

He was shocked when Locke could hear Jacob and tried to kill him right after. Locke could have busted the lie and not only replace him. He could have faked the advice from Jacob all along (who could prove him wrong?). He is a control freak and

Of course Ben was special (like Walt with dreams and like Hurley who can see the cabin) but he wasn't the ONE. Ben could not handle that rejection. So he manipulated Widmore off the island and stole the "crown". As others above have said - the island and Richard were trying oust Ben. Someone pointed out that Richard was not happy with the direction of the others under Ben.

Even Widmore said the island has needed Locke for a long time.

People have mentioned the Alpert visiting Locke and rejecting him. They did however keep trying to recruit him as a painfully awkward teen (science camp anyone!)

Ben is extremely good at doing what mind reader and psychics do - they read clues and between the lines and act as though they know things. He is the best liar there is. Just a thought...

#333. Posted by: Addicted to LOST at March 1, 2009 11:12 AM

@308/Stocky: "The only plausible explaination I can think of is that a good amount of time must pass between the time Locke is killed and when his body is actually found, giving Jack plenty of time to continue his path into despair, and grow the beard."

Both the title cards and the characters refer to the original freighter/Oceanic 6 events as "three years ago" (January 2005), so it appears the Ajira return flight happens in January 2008.

The Bentham passport Widmore gives Locke is dated December 2007. While I understand your Jack skepticism, I think these events happened in a relatively tight time frame.

Jack is an emotionally fragile guy unable to maintain healthy relationships, only happy when he has someone to save.

Yes, he rejects Hurley's "you're not supposed to raise him", but he still has an immediate crisis of confidence that leads him to buy Kate an engagement ring.

He rejects the vision of Christian at the hospital, but immediately hits the pills and booze, and destroys his relationship with Kate in two weeks (just as with Jack-Sara, his daddy issues sabotage his adult relationships).

By the time of his meeting with Locke, he is alone, afraid, and on his way to serious substance abuse. Is it really unrealistic that one last message from his father, delivered by someone who stayed on the island, would push Jack into a deeper level of despair?

@310/Scooby-Dude: "there is also evidence that the passengers on flight 815 could have been manipulated onto that flight, in that case possibly overseen by Widmore via a previous window of time supplied by Mrs. Hawking."

I buy the overall concept that the original Oceanic characters were manipulated to Sydney, but how could all of the connections you listed possibly have ensured that the characters were all on the same return flight on the same day?

Would Hibbs or Isaac of Ulhuru really have any control on which flight Sawyer or Rose/Bernard booked to return to LA?

For the 10-15 individuals who absolutely had to be on that flight for purposes of future events, it makes more Lost-sense to chalk it up to their pre-destined path, rather than a wide-ranging conspiracy that would involve dozens of people world-wide.

This is a different scenario than the Ajira flight, where you only need to influence 6 people, each of whom already knows about the island and has some level of awareness of their purpose.

#334. Posted by: Mizzed at March 1, 2009 11:25 AM

So much information, so many theories, so many guesses and conjectures, so many scarves...

Somebody help me out here please.

Have TPTB stated that the island is NOT sentient?

I'm working on a wild-a$$ theory...that the ISLAND is Jacob, a traveler from another time/space, trapped in our reality. And that whoever controls Island Jacob is privy to future/past events and knowledge thereby gaining immense wealth and power and, for all practical intents and purposes, immortality.

Ben and Widmore lost faith/communion with the island (Ben eating chicken dinners out of the fridge; Widmore using it for personal gain).

Also, Richard Alpert is the island's spokesperson/intermediary. And maybe, just maybe Richard = Smoky?

And Richard likes Locke because Locke has no interest in personal gain or animosity towards those who've wronged him.

Kind of like how the Ring of Power in the TLOTR has such little affect on Frodo because Hobbits are almost immune to such negative energies.

Probably stupid I know, but I'm throwing it out there anyway.

#335. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 1, 2009 12:52 PM

John's return to the island mimicks Christian Shepherd's; they both died before arriving. We thought that Jack's father was a ghost/apparition at the start of the series. Could it be that he's been as alive as Locke is now from the begining? Or is it Locke that is less than alive?

#336. Posted by: taiski at March 1, 2009 10:36 PM

@307 berkyo commented:

>Oh! And you know what would be good? A place marker so I know where I left off.

What I do is remember WHEN I was last on the blog, then scroll down to that date and time.

o~~~~~~~~~

@335 ransomjackson:

I don't think TPTB have ever said one way or another if the island is sentient. Of course, it of is, I don't think they'd answer that question, You can try submitting a question for their audio podcasts.

One thing they did say in the last podcast was that Kate did NOT kill Aaron.

o~~~~~~~~

One thing I haven't seen any comment on until ScoobyDude mentioned it indirectly a short ways back...

Last week we assumed that this week we would learn what influenced Kate and Hurley, and what forced Sayid onto Flight 316, but no such revelations were forthcoming this week - so we can't blame it on the episodes being shown out of order.

o~~~~~~~~

Wow, about 300 comments in the first two days, then thirty in the next two! I assume almost everybody comments from work.

#337. Posted by: Cecil at March 1, 2009 10:48 PM

random musings...

So if the Ellie Other from 1954 is the one and only Eloise Hawking (which makes sense considering Daniel couldn't stop staring at her), and if she becomes romantically entangled with Charles Widmore, that raises the possibility that Daniel and Penny are siblings or possibly half-siblings, ala Jack and Claire...
***

Locke could have killed the young Widmore, but didn't ("he's one of my people"). Interesting turn of phrase, especially as Locke had just knifed to death another "other" a few minutes before.

Locke seemingly didn't know who he was at the time, yet something clicked in his mind that made him not pull the trigger- looping? destiny?
***

In general, I try to view the faith based allusions in Lost as more ancient and mythic than Christianity specific.

But I can see how the conversion of Jack from skeptic to believer could be interpreted in that way, from the arrivals of heralds or angels bearing the spiritual message (Charlie and Christian), to the soon to be martryed John the Baptist (locke) preparing the way, to the ultimate arrival of the (Jack) shepherd and the Son of Christian (ity).

For those who have already suggested this possibility, this would make Jack, the man who "must save everybody", the actual "savior" and true leader of the island. This may also explain the "Dalai Lama" test Richard gave the young Locke as a boy when he selected the knife over the Book of Laws (per Eko, the Old Testament). Locke is the protector/hunter, but not the ultimate savior/shepherd.

Since Richard has already stated that the island identifies its leaders when young, this theory adds fuel to the conspiracy theorists who believe that Christian and/or Grampy Ray have had dealings with the island before.

Perhaps it's best not to go too far down this road, and instead focus on more important things like who's going to end up with whom in the old Jack-Kate-Sawyer-Juliet rectangle.

#338. Posted by: Mizzed at March 2, 2009 1:02 AM

"The Lamp Post" seems to be a nod to The Chronicles of Narnia, as the entrance to the magical land adjacent to a lamp post in the middle of a forest.

http://narnia.wikia.com/wiki/Lamp-post

#339. Posted by: P at March 2, 2009 4:03 AM

Well, our office just officially closed for the day due to the snow ... and my goodness it is coming down very hard right now, I'd say at least 2 inches over the past hour here in Columbia, MD.

So maybe I'll finish rewatching today! One thing I just noticed, when John fixes/turns the FDW ... it is very clear from this epi that the cave IS frozen (icicles on the wall, frost on the wheel) ... didn't seem so when we first saw Locke turn the wheel, but I'm guessing his lack of parka as per Ben contributed to that perception. Second, the very last scene of the cave before John pops off to Tunisia is from up above ... and it appears one of the spokes on the FDW is broken/missing (the farthest to the right, which should have just been cleared of the wall due to John's shifting of the wheel, appears to have been snapped off, and perhaps this was why the wheel was stuck). Have no idea if there's any significance to this, but the wheel was not broken when Ben turned it, so think it will be mentioned again ...

Oh, one last thing ... it is clearly the same wall/wheel that Ben turned (from visible background details of both Ben/Locke turning the wheel) ... so, no Ben/Locke on "different sides" of the wall, just to be clear.

#340. Posted by: ealgumby at March 2, 2009 8:11 AM


Two observations from a re-watch last night of this episode:

(1) Abbadon has met/seen Walt before since his comment to Locke is, "The Boy's gotten big." If he had never met Walt, how would he be able to make this observation? To my recollection, we have never seen the two of them together though - right?

(2) Locke visits 5 places on his Return-to-the-Island-with-Me Tour:

- Santo Domingo
- New York City
- Santa Rosa
- Los Angeles
- Santa Monica

Of the 5, three of the places are named for saints. Could this be foreshadowing for:

- Rose (Santa Rosa)
- Dominique (Santo Domingo)
- Kate (Santa Monica - Mocia was her alias when she was married)

Could just be a coincidence, but struck me as odd that 3 of the 5 places were named for saints and all three could tie back to Lost characters. Thoughts?

#341. Posted by: GatorGal at March 2, 2009 9:31 AM

@340 ealgumby related:

>Well, our office just officially closed for the day due to the snow ... and my goodness it is coming down very hard right now, I'd say at least 2 inches over the past hour here in Columbia, MD.

Sissies! I fought my way in through the same killer snow - 3 inches down here. (and all the Yankees on the blog are laughing their you-know-whats off.)

#342. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 2, 2009 11:16 AM

Any fan of film flubs will appreciate the scene where Walt walks out of his school.....each time the camera is focused on Locke there is a woman in a grey sweater that is continuously walking past him....I'm sure this is not a matrixy glich in the system, lady in red dress intentional type placement, but simply a flub.....she is prett sexy, maybe they just wanted her in every shot, I don't know, but check it out.

#343. Posted by: Diggler at March 2, 2009 11:25 AM

@342/Cecil Rose:

Yeah I know, I grew up in Milwaukee ... but the 2+ inches I mentioned came on top of the 4-5 we already had on the ground at the time, plus the extra inch or two that fell afterward ... maybe 8 inches total here, with over a foot to the east of DC. Chump change by Great Lake-effect snowfall standards, but well enough to effectively shut things down around here. ;)

#344. Posted by: ealgumby at March 2, 2009 11:28 AM

This may be nothing but...
Remember when Ben was reading on the plane and Jack asked him something like "How can you read?" Ben replied, "My mother taught me." Didn't Ben's mother die while giving birth to him -- hence his father's hatred for him? Just a thought...

#345. Posted by: LovinLost at March 2, 2009 11:28 AM

→ 335. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 1, 2009 12:52 PM

I'm working on a wild-a$$ theory...that the ISLAND is Jacob, a traveler from another time/space, trapped in our reality. And that whoever controls Island Jacob is privy to future/past events and knowledge thereby gaining immense wealth and power and, for all practical intents and purposes, immortality.

Ben and Widmore lost faith/communion with the island (Ben eating chicken dinners out of the fridge; Widmore using it for personal gain).

Also, Richard Alpert is the island's spokesperson/intermediary. And maybe, just maybe Richard = Smoky?

And Richard likes Locke because Locke has no interest in personal gain or animosity towards those who've wronged him.'

*
I like the theory and have thought in similar lines. It's not that outrageous, with how little we know for sure about The Island, Jacob, Alpert and Smokey (and so much more). And from what we do know, which ever way you slice it, the real story WILL be outrageous.

---------------------------------------

→ 341. Posted by: GatorGal at March 2, 2009 9:31 AM

(1) Abbadon has met/seen Walt before since his comment to Locke is, "The Boy's gotten big." If he had never met Walt, how would he be able to make this observation? To my recollection, we have never seen the two of them together though - right?'

*
I'm guessing he has played a part in getting Michael and Walt onto flight 815, like he did with Locke. That is what he does for Widmore.

But how did Widmore make that happen? Ellie is almost certainly Eloise Hawking. She and Widmore have shared history together on the Island, maybe romantical. If he was banned from or tricked into leaving the Island, what about her? Why and when did she leave?
I'm thinking they were a couple for a time, when Widmore was leader. She may have had some influence on him as well. Then he changed or did something horrible and he was banned.

--------------------------------------

Some other things:

Is the bag lady Danielle?

Will Smokey come for Ben?

Is Locke now immortal? Or is he now 'outside of time', meaning that he can change the past, and it won't be course corrected?

Where's Claire?

Do Alpert and Ben know of Christian's existence? It's such convenient writing, to not have Locke mention Christian to Ben or Widmore. Strange, given that usually, when he's in an argument, as soon as Locke realizes that he knows something important that the other doesn't, he triumphantly throws it at them, for the brief satisfaction of the surprised look on their face.

He and Ben are true opposites. He can't lie, Ben can't tell the truth.

#346. Posted by: Molemangler at March 2, 2009 1:37 PM

Way back when Jack's friend was beat up by the kids at school, his father was telling him he didn't have what it takes. They were in a home office and there was a screen shot of Christian's diploma's and some pictures on a wall behind the desk. Does anyone have the ability to zoom in on those pictures? I was just curious to see if the island/people appeared in one.

I also recall Jack's mother telling him to 'bring your father home.' Did she really mean to LA?

#347. Posted by: pebspostal at March 2, 2009 2:26 PM

Re: Ben at the wheel/Locke at the wheel
I've gone back and looked at the frames over and over again. I can't find enough to say they are the same production set or not(it is just a show). The small perpendicular walls at each end. The rock work of the wall. etc. Studied all I can. I have captured and put in cad the wheel( a very good straight down shot with Ben) and it apears to be 8 spokes. In the Locke scene, (thanks, ealgumby) there should be another spoke showing, but the inner radius of the wheel, makes that somewhat ambiguous, there just isn't enough inner radius that the next spoke should show. The rock column, seams somewhat inconsistent, and if Locke at the wheel is after Ben, the crowbar should still be on the floor.

#348. Posted by: mtncbn at March 2, 2009 5:16 PM

Look time reader, first time poster. Thanks for all the amazing theories and comments. Couldn't watch LOST without this blog!

A friend of mine swears that Charlie Pace is on the beach in the background when Locke is talking to the Ajirans. Has anyone with DVR seen this? Is my friend crazy or is he there?

I've seen it mentioned on a couple of other blogs, but not conclusively. Anyone?

#349. Posted by: brooklynlost at March 2, 2009 5:22 PM

Not sure I made that clear. I can't find anything as a sure match, on the wall, or either short wall at each end.

#350. Posted by: mtncbn at March 2, 2009 5:23 PM

SNOW DAYYY!!!

And I spent it watching Season 3 of LOST. I got upto "The Man From Talahassee". On Friday I'll be starting at Expose. =]

I still think that episode has significance. I hope they explain it.

#351. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 2, 2009 6:30 PM

@340. Posted by: ealgumby and 342. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Sorry guys but 2 - 3" is what we in Canada call a "dusting" of snow! Now the 8 + 1" under it might get it classified as an actual snow, but only if the roads have not been plowed or sanded in between.

#352. Posted by: surefoot at March 2, 2009 6:34 PM

quote:@340. Posted by: ealgumby and 342. Posted by: Cecil Rose

Sorry guys but 2 - 3" is what we in Canada call a "dusting" of snow! Now the 8 + 1" under it might get it classified as an actual snow, but only if the roads have not been plowed or sanded in between.
→ 352. Posted by: surefoot at March 2, 2009 6:34 PM :end quote

How appropriate- surefoot
I run 10.5" luggy siped traction tires cause 10 - 14 feet of snow happens here. And the county thinks plowing or sanding (graveling, rocking, -check the windshields around here) is a drastic measure. You low-landers should come to the mountains once in a while for perspective.

#353. Posted by: mtncbn at March 2, 2009 6:47 PM

im not sure if anyone else has this problem, - i have to watch the show & not think about posting stuff in here, - very hard to do if its the first time you see a new episode, it must be hard for mac to watch a new one, i know he is a big fan of lost but still hard to watch from his perspective, very nice job with your review mac, i always enjoy reading it.

#354. Posted by: san at March 2, 2009 8:01 PM

@349/brooklynlost" "A friend of mine swears that Charlie Pace is on the beach in the background when Locke is talking to the Ajirans. Has anyone with DVR seen this? Is my friend crazy or is he there?

I've seen it mentioned on a couple of other blogs, but not conclusively. Anyone?"

Well ... he looks superficially like Charlie from a distance when he pans in from the right ... and has Charlie's mannerisms ... but upon background closeup in a subsequent scene shortly thereafter (when Caesar bends down before Obi-hooded Locke) ... NO, it's not him ... absolutely not him ... sorry, that would've been cool ... but not to be.

#355. Posted by: ealgumby at March 2, 2009 9:59 PM

@348/mtncbn: "Re: Ben at the wheel/Locke at the wheel
I've gone back and looked at the frames over and over again. I can't find enough to say they are the same production set or not."

Well, looking back to the Locke scene in "This Place Is Death," it is VERY clear they are in the same cave (or set, if you will ... check the shapes and wear/cut patterns of rocks visible in both scenes). Less conclusively confirmed in TLADOJB, but still so. A couple things are clearly different though (please don't make me post screen snaps ... just not really in the mood!) ... first of all the color coming from behind the wall (eerie green for Locke, sun-yellow for Ben), and one of the small rocks (farthest left) on the "mantle piece" in Ben's scene IS missing from Locke's scene, although a rock of roughly the same shape/size lies next to Locke's right foot on the ground in his overhead view ... and it is NOT there in Ben's scene. Also note the icicles in both scenes are different, although the rocks in the wall are identical. Also ... the "spoke" missing in Locke's scene is an outer "push/pull" arm, very clearly broken/missing, not an inner radius spoke.

Very clearly intended to be the same wall, from the same side, at different times ... re the crow bar, I do not know, but would suggest either production error (not the first) or just the wrong angle to see it ... unless you think someone came into the cave, picked a rock up off the ground, and placed it on the mantle before Ben's departure?

IMO, Locke's exit is post-Ben's, but of course I have no concrete evidence to support that, short of what I've just presented.

So ... unless we see someone pick up a rock in the cave and stick it on the mantle in a future epi, I can only assume Locke's exit was from the same place, but at a later date (after which the rock fell from the mantle ... perhaps when the wheel got stuck ... JMHO of course.

#356. Posted by: ealgumby at March 2, 2009 10:39 PM

@ 221. vacc: Vacc, I love you dearly, but I think you have completely gone off the reservation with the Abaddon = Walt theory. Yes, he knows the boy has gotten big because he has been tracking the Oceanic 815 survivors for Charles Widmore since the crash, and was responsible for getting Locke (if not others) on the plane in the first place. Secondly he gave them some privacy because it's not his job to interfere in Locke's mission, plus Walt would want to know who the creepy guy wheeling Locke around was.

#357. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 2, 2009 10:59 PM

Okay, just noticed something ...

The boats on the beach in The Little Prince (and yes, there are two) are the same boats left on the shore in TLADOJB! The skipping Frosties took the single outrigger boat, and those chasing/shooting at them (six people are in the boat), went after them with the one left on the beach.

This tends to null the theory that the Frosties are back in time while the 316 survivors on the Hydra island are in different (current) time!

No! They are in the same time frame ... the 316ers took the two boats to the main island ... Frosties took one boat ... 316ers found a boat missing, and went after them. The only question is ... who were among the 316ers (Locke?), and who got shot by Juliet?

#358. Posted by: ealgumby at March 2, 2009 11:15 PM

@ 224. PiecesofArzt: Don't be ridiculous. Gilligan's Isle is off the Winward side of Oahu, the Losties camp on the North Shore. ;)

@ 239. shikotee: "Vivre les habitants!"

Go B's! :P

@ 255. Cecil Rose: Cecil, she knew it was her father because she met him (way back in Par Avion). She just never knew what his name was (he tried to tell her and she interrupted him). But she knew what he looked like.

@ 34. ealgumby: It has been a very long time since I had a snow day. Should I be amused or concerned that when the District plowed my street they only plowed one plow width?

#359. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 2, 2009 11:27 PM

@358, ealgumby: "This tends to null the theory that the Frosties are back in time while the 316 survivors on the Hydra island are in different (current) time!"

The Frosties jumped a couple of times after finding the boats, so how would that null the theory?

#360. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 2, 2009 11:30 PM

I tried to post this last Saturday, but didn't manage. Now that I had another good look at the rules, I think the problem might have been that I had some urls in there. Mea culpa. Sorry Mac for the repeated tries to post.

Anyway, I cleared up my post (which I managed to recover luckily) and will try to post it now:

****

The posting here is going crazy. :) I finally caught up with post 305, which is the last one I have on my screen at the moment, but I'm sure there are many more by now.

Just some more comments now though, I hope you won't mind if they did pop up after post 305 as well. You'll excuse me as well I hope if I do not post all the post numbers or poster names to which I will be responding. I'll try to keep it general. :)

It'll probably turn out to be a long post. Be warned.

**********
Did Ben want to prevent Locke from meet mrs. Hawking? Why? Well, we know meeting your own time travelling self is a recipe for disaster, so... mrs. Hawking is Locke from the future and Ben saved us all by preventing them to meet... (no, serious I am not...)


******

I do have to disagree with all the people who argue that either Ben or Widmore are good or bad and I do agree with the few people who actually mentioned that neither might be the case. The only way in which you can possibly believe that either of them is a 'good guy' is if you think that 1) the end justifies the means and 2) the end that these people are striving for is an extremely good, worthwhile, and beautiful goal. Because the means they used have been awful. They are both manipulative liars ---definitely Ben, but I think Widmore lied too--- and they are murderers. Ben is even a mass murderer. What lofty goals are worthy enough to carry the burden of these means? And they are not the only characters on the show with a less than clean conscience. We have our share of murderers ---Sayid, Locke, Keemy, Rousseau, Kate, Michae, Eko, Richard---, con men ---Sawyer, Miles--- and all in all violent behaviour --- apart from all the previous people, Jin, mr. Paik, and, almost, Sun. O, and then we have Faraday, who left his girlfriend in a coma (although I'm still hoping the reason he left her, is because he hoped to find a cure for her situation on the Island). I can't really say there are a lot of major characters on the show (that are still alive) that have a 'normal' share of past mistakes and sins, instead of delving into murdering and conning. Hurley, Juliet, Desmond, and Penny... probably.

*********

@267, WeAreEverybody, re all the santa's:

I noticed that as well. Was planning to post it here. With all the religious metaphors TPTB are throwing in, could they have tried to mirror the Stations of the Cross in Locke's travels? Via dolorosa.
tinyurl.com/bcyvxb

******

@269, shannon, re Ben and premeditation:

Another thing I wanted to post and was just beaten to. :) I found it odd as well that Ben had cleaning spray with him. He could have gone out to get it, who knows. Or stolen it of a cleaners tray. But it does suggest that premeditation is a possibility as well.

**********
Re: how does Walt know the name Bentham?

Perhaps Walt had a dream about Locke in which he used that name? :)


***********

Re Widmore and Dharma: According to Lostpedia in one of Losts apocryphal sources it was revealed that there are connections between Paik, Hanso, Widmore and Dharma. I tend to think that while TPTB might not keep a close eye on the details revealed through ARGs and all that, they will try not to contradict them, unless absolutely necessary for the story. Meaning that I don't think the Others and Dharma were at odds during Widmore's time. Perhaps that's what got him exiled.


******

Re: shouldn't the O5 be recognised as celebrities?

They returned three years earlier. Probably they were in the headlines for a couple of days and then the world forgot about them. I don't think they would be recognised. And even if they were, then so what? It's entirely possible that after living through a plane crash together you form a bond and keep in contact. And perhaps travel together from time to time. Probably it would strike people as odd if they all were in a second plane crash three years later, but still, these sort of things do happen: tinyurl.com/yuru49

********

@179, Ilovebenjaminlinusxx:"I think the word/phrase (whichever it is) to describe Jack is "close-minded"."

Jack is not close minded. He finds himself in a situation where everyone is trying to manipulate him into doing the most ridiculous things. He's asking for evidence that doing this stuff actually will be favourable to him. A very healthy attitude I'd say. Locke is actually the close minded one, never once considering (well, at least not without becoming suicidal) the obvious conclusion that he is a pawn in a game, used and abused by everyone around him, and that he, in fact, is not special just because he is, but that he might become special by stepping up, taking his fate/destiny/course correction or whatever into his own hands and saying "screw you Widmore, Ben, Hawking, Richard, Smokey, and most of all screw you manipulative attention whore of an Island, I'm my own man!"

*********

All the time loop theories are interesting and that might be the way they are actually going with the show, but I do have add a remark here. Let's say that the two scenes of Jack diving into the water and rescuing Hurley and Kate in "316" were actually two repeats in the loop. Then we are talking about quite big changes here. It's not just a little Jack-molecule that flutters to the left one time instead of the right the other time. It's actually whole humans doing different things. Millions and billions of molecules have their directions changed. I hope you see where I'm going with this here. If such big changes are introduced mere minutes after Jack arrives in the past, then there is no saying how big the 'new 2008' diverges from the old one. If Jack and co really landed in the seventies, then these small changes they made have 30 years to grow into a completely different future.

*****
Life Magazine April 19 1954: http://tinyurl.com/abwbhh


*****

The woman that Locke saw while passing out: not Nadia I think. I really feel that some of the people on this blog jump to conclusion awfully quickly where it comes to non-caucasians. Abbadon must be Walt, Chang's baby must be Miles, that Tunesian woman must be Iraqi Nadia?


*******

Re Locke's toes:

I looked up the scene in the hospital with Jack and it looks like he has the normal amount of five toes. One of them is a bit hidden by the cast though.

********

@255, Cecil: "A sure sign that the Dolmansaxlil Shoe Corporation hasn't yet visited this planet, and I get to press the button, Wheeeeeeeee!

P.S. No shoe shop intensifier rays were unleased in the making of this post."

Okay, I won't panic.

*******


@261 Mizzed: "@248/Scooby-Dude: "Alpert tells Locke he knows they’re alive off the island, but how does HE know?"

If you believe in the "masters of time" looping theory, all these questions go away. Alpert knows because he's been down this road before..."

Or perhaps the Ultimate Complete All Mysteries Explained Lost dvd set that will come out in two years foomed back to early 2000 New Otherton.

********


@262, Lost in ca: "1) How did Locke's suicide note end up in the hands of Ms. H? I think Locke put it in his back pocket. I never saw Benji take it."

Good question. Ben also didn't seem be aware of the note in "316", but then, one never knows what he is or isn't aware of.

*********

I tried to see if I could come up with any kind of feasible interpretation for the equations scribbled on that piece of paper that Caesar found, but there's not much to go by.

#361. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 2, 2009 11:39 PM

Okay, that worked. Mac, sorry again for messing up. Please disregard my posts that you might have queued up now for manual approval.

#362. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 2, 2009 11:41 PM

Slain Pimple, IllBlixx, EagleDumby, chok-a-lotay...
no offense. u windbags are destroying this grate bloggg. walllttt!

#363. Posted by: walllttt! at March 3, 2009 12:49 AM

→ 361 Plain Simple said, "Okay, I won't panic."

*******

Yeah, but do you have your towel?

Read any good Vogon poetry lately?

Yippee!

#364. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 3, 2009 9:18 AM

Just an observation regarding what changed Ben's mind and caused him to strangle Locke...

After Locke told him that Jin was alive, Ben took off his sports coat. Why would he do that if they were getting ready to leave? I think Ben would be more surprised by Jin's survival than the fact that Widmore told Locke to visit Hawking. Once he heard the news about Jin, he knew he had to take care of Locke, so he removed his coat... you know, so he would be nice and comfortable whilst brutally strangling Locke. :)

#365. Posted by: Christin at March 3, 2009 10:26 AM

@365, Christin: Genius. I think you're absolutely right. I thought Ben taking off his coat was weird but then it made sense after he killed Locke and had to clean up the room. So the question is, what's the big deal about Jin being alive? Maybe a way to get Sun back to the island, which would complete the O6 return and do some majic voodoo thingy Ben would need to be back in control?

#366. Posted by: Sarah at March 3, 2009 10:59 AM

→ 139. Posted by: Scooby-Dude
Why did the shepherds cross the street? Anyone?

I won't finish this blog this week but I have to answer

"Because they were on the lamb".

And all of you who said the same thing can rant all you won't, I can't Hear you!
Fingers in my ears. LA LA LA LA LA

#367. Posted by: berkyo at March 3, 2009 11:00 AM

@361 : Plain Simple << I really feel that some of the people on this blog jump to conclusion awfully quickly where it comes to non-caucasians. Abbadon must be Walt, Chang's baby must be Miles, that Tunesian woman must be Iraqi Nadia?

I think we jump to conclusions pretty quickly for Caucasians too : i.e. Sojer Girl must be Eloise Hawking, the Hand Chopping army guy (Jones) must be Widmore, Locke's daddy must be the real Sawyer, Locke must be Jacob, Jack must be Jacob, Alpert must be Jacob, Charlotte must be Annie..
I think there's quite a lot of equal opportunity theorizing on this blog : i.e. that Charlotte is baby Chang, that Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve, that Locke is the four toed statue, that Alpert is the smoke monster, that Vincent is smokey...


#368. Posted by: vacc at March 3, 2009 11:19 AM

@364 ransomjackson inqired

>Read any good Vogon poetry lately?

O furdled gruntbugly....

Nah,, it's not good. Good Vogon poetry is an oxymoron.

#369. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 3, 2009 11:28 AM

I'm working on a theory that there's actually only one outrigger canoe, and time-travelling Losties keep bringing it back and parking it beside itself.

#370. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 3, 2009 11:30 AM

^Perhaps your right.

#371. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 3, 2009 11:30 AM

@→ 368. Posted by: vacc at March 3, 2009 11:19 AM
responding to:

@361 : Plain Simple << I really feel that some of the people on this blog jump to conclusion awfully quickly where it comes to non-caucasians. Abbadon must be Walt, Chang's baby must be Miles, that Tunesian woman must be Iraqi Nadia?

I think we jump to conclusions pretty quickly for Caucasians too : i.e. Sojer Girl must be Eloise Hawking, the Hand Chopping army guy (Jones) must be Widmore, Locke's daddy must be the real Sawyer, Locke must be Jacob, Jack must be Jacob, Alpert must be Jacob, Charlotte must be Annie..
I think there's quite a lot of equal opportunity theorizing on this blog : i.e. that Charlotte is baby Chang, that Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve, that Locke is the four toed statue, that Alpert is the smoke monster, that Vincent is smokey...


**********


Locke likes to jump to conclusions based on ethnicity too; "Well it couldn't have been Sayid's father and it wasn't Hurley's dad, so it must have been your dad, Jack" (I’m paraphrasing).

#372. Posted by: Skipper at March 3, 2009 11:40 AM

@372, Skipper: "Locke likes to jump to conclusions based on ethnicity too; "Well it couldn't have been Sayid's father and it wasn't Hurley's dad, so it must have been your dad, Jack" (I’m paraphrasing)."

Well, if you know that Christian is the father of either Sayid, Hurley, or Jack and you know Hurley's father (why again does John know his father?) and Sayid is an Iraqi, born and raised in Iraq, then I suppose it's more an educated guess, not a big jump. It's different if you see two people of similar ethnicity and just assume that out of the millions of people with the same ethnicity they must be closely related. Anyway, I think that vacc above was right, the jumping is not restricted to non-caucasians.

#373. Posted by: Plain Simpe at March 3, 2009 11:47 AM

@364, ransomjackson:

"Yeah, but do you have your towel?

Read any good Vogon poetry lately?"

I have my towel ready, but... "good" Vogon poetry??? I'm still alive, aren't I (no, I'm not one of the Island's walking dead).

#374. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 3, 2009 11:49 AM

Towel Day approacheth...

Towel Day is celebrated every May 25 as a tribute by fans of the late author Douglas Adams.

On this day, fans carry a towel with them to demonstrate their love for the books and the author. The commemoration was first held in 2001, two weeks after Adams' death on May 11, 2001.

The towel is a reference to Adams's popular science fiction comedy series The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

#375. Posted by: ransomjackson at March 3, 2009 12:36 PM

@373. Posted by: Plain Simple

Well, if you know that Christian is the father of either Sayid, Hurley, or Jack and you know Hurley's father (why again does John know his father?) and Sayid is an Iraqi, born and raised in Iraq, then I suppose it's more an educated guess, not a big jump. It's different if you see two people of similar ethnicity and just assume that out of the millions of people with the same ethnicity they must be closely related. Anyway, I think that vacc above was right, the jumping is not restricted to non-caucasians.


*****************

Why did Christian's son have to be one of the O6? Christian never told Locke that his son was formerly on the Island and that he got off the Island. All he said was, "Say hello to my son..."

For all Locke knows he could have said, "Say hello to Mi Sun," and that could have been a nick name for Sun.... ok, ok, that's a stretch, I know. Now I'm just being silly :P

#376. Posted by: Skipper at March 3, 2009 1:09 PM

@376, Skipper: "Why did Christian's son have to be one of the O6? Christian never told Locke that his son was formerly on the Island and that he got off the Island. All he said was, "Say hello to my son...""

Strictly speaking you're right of course, but he did mention it in the context of sending Locke to go and convince the O6 to come back. Ah well, it's really not important, is it? Not as important as vacc's comment above that almost slipped past unnoticed: is Vincent Smokey? And if so, is Walt the Bandit? :)

#377. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 3, 2009 2:53 PM

Is it me or are people underestimating the role that Richard Alpert plays in all of this. I really think that Richard will end up being the key to the mystery behind the island.

If we recall correctly, Richard is well dressed, groomed and pretty much his normal self in 1954 when he runs into john locke. What troubles me is his appearance during his first interaction with a young Ben. he is seen with long hair, dirty and dressed rather badly. Either that was done intentionally to trick the young ben or Richard was celebrating halloween!!!

I would love to see a flash back focusing on Richard Alpert. I wont be surprised at all if Richard ends up having a direct connection to the four toed statue and the rest of the islands mysteries. Richard is the key to everything!!! Let's remember that he does not seem to be aging at all. That in it self is very essential to what Lost represents.

People are quick to suggest that Richard may have come to the island on the black rock but what if he was on the island prior to the black rock arriving? Only time will tell

#378. Posted by: Michaelmvp at March 3, 2009 4:05 PM

plain simple, your funny. :)

since everyone has covered everything else i just have a comment/thought. TPTB have said, i think i saw them say this on one of the late night talk shows, that one of the clues as to what lost was about could be found in the pilot episode's, season 1. i rewatched season 1 over the xmas break and my guess as to what the clue was when walt and locke were playing bacgammon and locke was explaining the game to walt and the history of the game. basically he told walt bacgammon was the oldest game in the world, something about ancient mesopatamia(i know i spelled it wrong, buti dont have time to grab a dictionary) and that its a battle of light verses dark, possibly meaning good vs. evil. if i am missing something someone please feel free to add to it but it seems that many have been questioning whether anyone is really good or really evil on the show and that maybe the really good or the really evil people havent been introduced yet.

i personally think there is a battle/war between good and evil subject to individual interpretation of course and that interpretation is based on one's values, belief's, moral, ethics, experiences etc., etc., etc..... case in point being charles and ben, we cant seem to agree which side ben and charles fall under. is there a middle ground allowed or do you have to choose a side??

gotta go, peace&love too all!

#379. Posted by: tiffani at March 3, 2009 4:18 PM

@ 361. Posted by: Plain Simple


Re: Who has killed someone

Sun killed the “other” Collene and Juliet killed the “other” Danny Pickett and then got “branded.” If the “others” brand their people everytime they kill one of their own, I guess both Ben and Widmore would have been branded as well.

A few more people to add to your list: Jack (euthanized the marshal I think his name was Edward Mars) and Anna Lucia (killed Jason who caused her miscarriage). Also make sure Sawyer is on the Murderer list and not just the con man list (killed Locke’s dad & that guy who owned the shrimp shack in Australia). I used to have a list of every character who has killed someone on the show, I’ll have to try and find it.

---

Re: shouldn't the O5 be recognised as celebrities?
They returned three years earlier….

Perhaps they are still being recognized. I think when Jack got on Ajira 316 it would only be a few days (maybe a week?) after Jack read Jeremy Bentham’s (Locke’s) obituary in the newspaper and nearly jumped off a bridge and then was recognized in the drug-store trying to fill a prescription written on his father’s prescription pad. As I recall the man behind Jack in the line at the drug-store said something about Jack being a hero (I guess they could be referring to him saving the woman who crashed her car when she saw Jack about to jump), but always thought it was referring to him being one of the O6.

#380. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at March 3, 2009 4:38 PM

Plain Simple--Why's Walt gotta be the Bandit?--he seems like such a nice boy!

Michaelmvp--I agree Richard must have more importance. Why doesn't someone just thrrottle him Jack Bauer style until he tells us everything! And people do say he's from the Black Rock or maybe Egyptian. More stereotypes! Cause the man rocks a little eyeliner he's gotta be a pirate or a pharoah--sheesh! :)
And speaking of things that haven't been discussed--something that's been way OVERanalyzed is the whole were Locke and ben in the same FDW room and where were the rocks in these scenes. It just doesn't seem like it would be that important.

Love all the riffs on Scooby dude's shepherds riddle. Didn't think anyone could beat "to get to the other Sayid", but then berkyo comes up with "on the lamb."--Classick!

ransom--thanks for explaining the towel thing. I figured that was where it was from. I just somehow missed that whole Hitchhiker phenomenon. Not sure how--I'm sure I'd love it.

I think I'm getting a little punchy. Is it Wednesday yet????

#381. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes at March 3, 2009 4:43 PM

Random thoughts:

Maybe the good vs evil is not the people on the island but what's inside each of us. Just how far can a person be pushed to become evil. What does it take? Kate was able to kill her father but Locke could not. Locke can kill strangers but Kate hesitates to pull the trigger. Sawyer didn't want to kill Locke's father but he was pushed to the extreme. I think he had regrets afterwards. They've all been involved in someones death in some way. Boone felt responsible for the nanny's death. I can't remember anything about Shannon other than she was just plain rotten inside. Rose is the only one that has not attempted to kill someone yet.

Going way back up the posts, someone listed everyone and how Widmore could have manipulated things to get them on the same plane. I also have played around with that same list only I concentrated on who should 'not' have been on the plane. Like Hurley and Charlie who were both running late. Sayid was to leave a day earlier. Jack was suppose to stay behind because of the coffin, Sun was suppose to leave Jin, etc. There has to be a common thread there that I'm missing.

Anyone consider Ben's killing of Locke the solution to Ben saying 'let's get them all together' then we'll figure out how to get them back to the island. A funeral is the best way of bringing people together, except in Locke's case.

Someone mentioned the diamonds. That's funny because I was thinking along the lines of Caesar following the diamonds to flight 815. I don't believe that storyline is complete yet.

I'd also like to shout out a hello from Ellicott City to my Columbia neighbor!

#382. Posted by: pebspostal at March 3, 2009 5:32 PM

@378, michaelmvp: "Is it me or are people underestimating the role that Richard Alpert plays in all of this."

O no, not at all. I've argued the importance of Alpert in the past. I think it was in the blog for the Jughead episode (which, btw, was named after the bomb, in case you didn't know).


"If we recall correctly, Richard is well dressed, groomed and pretty much his normal self in 1954 when he runs into john locke. What troubles me is his appearance during his first interaction with a young Ben. he is seen with long hair, dirty and dressed rather badly. Either that was done intentionally to trick the young ben or Richard was celebrating halloween!!!"

Or he was trying to pull a similar scam as the Others did on the Losties back in season 1, pretending they are without sophisticated technology or weapons.

****


@379, tiffani: "plain simple, your funny. :)"

Cheers!

***

@380, Christine Loves Lost:

Thanks for pointing out the 'killers I missed'.


"Perhaps they are still being recognized."

Well, Hurley was recognised in the beginning of the season, but that was because of him winning the lottery (which I found a bit unbelievable though... do you remember who wins the lottery?).


***

@381, Crispy Seaplanes: "Plain Simple--Why's Walt gotta be the Bandit?--he seems like such a nice boy!"

Well, Vincent's his dog, right? But, to be honest, I don't remember ever seeing "Smokey and the Bandit", but the name stuck. So I wouldn't know if Walt is anything like the Bandit. :)

"Cause the man rocks a little eyeliner he's gotta be a pirate or a pharoah--sheesh! :)"

People, people, there is no eyeliner: http://tinyurl.com/da5btu :)

@382, pebspostal: "Rose is the only one that has not attempted to kill someone yet."

You could be right, but I don't remember the following people killing either: Bernhard, Claire, Walt, Artz, (Nikki and Paulo?), Miles, Daniel, Charlotte, Frank...

While writing, I realise that we can add Charlie (killed Ethan) to our killers list. And didn't Christian loose a patient due to being drunk on the job? Not murdering per se, but also being responsible for ending a life.

#383. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 3, 2009 6:24 PM

@ Plain Simple - 373
I think TPTB point out these things for a reason. Maybe they WANT us to think these things.

@ Plain Simple - 377
"Not as important as vacc's comment above that almost slipped past unnoticed: is Vincent Smokey? And if so, is Walt the Bandit? :)"

Seriously, I still think Vincent is smokey. Even after everyone has disproved me, I still believe it to be true.

@ Michaelmvp - 378
"Is it me or are people underestimating the role that Richard Alpert plays in all of this. I really think that Richard will end up being the key to the mystery behind the island. "

Or Richard IS the island.

#384. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 3, 2009 6:54 PM

@ Plain Simple - 383
"You could be right, but I don't remember the following people killing either: Bernhard, Claire, Walt, Artz, (Nikki and Paulo?), Miles, Daniel, Charlotte, Frank... "

Nikki and Paulo killed that guy that they stole the diamonds from.

I really think that episode was not a filler at all. Even if Paulikki don't have any significance, the diamonds must. I doubt the point of that epsisode was to show that they were mean people.

Possible Significance:
1. Paulikki got in deeper than we thought
2. Diamonds
3. Introduce medusa spiders

SOMETHING will come back to haunt the losties, or something from that episode will impact the show in a big way other than just seeing characters such as Hurley's dad and Sun watch Expose.

TPTB wouldn't use up an episode for nothing.

#385. Posted by: ilovebenjaminlinusxx at March 3, 2009 7:07 PM

i was just looking at some of the reviews & posts from the start of season 1, amazing to see that some weeks there were only 2 comments posted, one week there were no posts at all, then look at last week - - almost 500 comments posted, it takes a little longer to read them all these days but its all good

#386. Posted by: san at March 3, 2009 7:18 PM

@383 Plain Simple
"people people no eye liner"

Dear Mr. Plain Simple.

My grandady always told me.
"Son never spoil a good story with facts" ;)

#387. Posted by: SamFin at March 3, 2009 7:24 PM

@378, michaelmvp and 383. Posted by: Plain Simple et al re richard alpert's appearance.

the explanation could be as simple as him wanting to fit in with the "average" man of his age at the time. in 1954 young men wore suits and nice, short hair. just take a look at the performers of the time eg. eddie fisher, buddy holly...by the time he visited locke with the test it was the sixties and things were starting to loosen up a bit thanks the beach boys and other more laid back groups. i guess what i'm trying to say is that he would choose attire off island that would go unnoticed...like, if you asked locke's foster mom (or his grandmother for that matter) the day after they saw him for a description they really wouldn't be able to come up with more than "dark hair and eyes, average height" does that make sense to anyone besides me??

#388. Posted by: surefoot at March 3, 2009 7:43 PM

For further explanation of my post @382,

The reason I included Bernard was because he was on the beach shooting at the 'others' when the group was headed for the tower.

I think Claire would have killed anyone to protect Aaron. Walt was a child and I think Artz was simply there to be disposed of. He wasn't part of the core group.

Miles, Daniel, Charlotte and Frank were not on Flight 815.

#389. Posted by: pebspostal at March 3, 2009 7:52 PM

Re the diamonds ... $3.2 million of diamonds, perhaps?

#390. Posted by: ealgumby at March 3, 2009 9:30 PM

Re Locke's FDW cave ...

Really hate to beat a dead horse here (really, I do ... have spent a LOT of time going back to TNPLH3, TPID, and this epi to cross check images!), but ...

I really think Locke turned the wheel after Ben ... or if nothing else, at least we can conclusively say the FDW was "broken" when Locke turned it ... see this screen snap:

tinyurl.com/c7tug4

Look down to the far right, where the next spoke/handle should be coming out of the wall ... instead we see remnants/slabs of a broken wheel handle just sticking out ... the handle is NOT there! It was broken off somehow, that much IS clear.

The rest of the "evidence" is less clear ... but I can say this for sure ... this is EXACTLY the same wall Ben turned the wheel in front of (two dozen screen snaps later ... I know, I'm pathetic! ;)). There are minor set details that are different between Ben's/Locke's wheel turning (rocks on the "mantle" missing in Locke's scene, but not on the ground ... I'm guessing he knocked them down during taping of the scene, and they were just removed ... and Ben's crow bar missing from Locke's scene ... but then again, there was the notorious "moving" of Ben's crow bar within his own scenes as very clear production error, so I don't give that much shrift).

One thing I do not see as production error ... a covering of dust over everything in the cave relative to Ben's FDW turning, and slight evidence of Ben's footprints/scrapes on the ground from when he was trying to turn the wheel.

In short, I think Locke turned the wheel in the future, or at least after Ben did ... and possibly after a very violent event shook the island enough to break the FDW and send dust cascading down over everything in the cave ... just a guess, of course, but perhaps the detonation of Jughead on the surface up above caused the FDW damage/dusting ...

If the O6 do not set things straight, the island will be destroyed in this manner. They have been sent back to prevent this ... JMHO.

#391. Posted by: ealgumby at March 3, 2009 9:59 PM

A few more for the Killers list:

Bernard--blew up some "others" by shooting the dynamite
Hurley--killed an "other" with VW Bus
Jin--same as Bernard
Desmond--Accidentally killed the guy who he was in the hatch with who was trying to steal his boat (I can't remember the name)

Oh and Anna Lucia also killed Shannon (in addition to Jason).

I really need to find my list. I had it divided up by Before Island, On Island, and After Island. I was trying to see if there was any significance to when the different characters have killed people. Don't think there was though.

#392. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at March 3, 2009 10:04 PM

If Ben didn't kill Locke, but only rendered him unconscious, he could have used Medusa Spiders to make him appear dead when he really wasn't.

#393. Posted by: Rhonda Banford at March 3, 2009 11:01 PM

@382/pebspostal: "I'd also like to shout out a hello from Ellicott City to my Columbia neighbor!"

Alaïs_Longthought & I say hello as well!

#394. Posted by: ealgumby at March 4, 2009 1:39 AM

@392 Christine Loves Lost macabrely posted:

>A few more for the Killers list:

>Bernard--blew up some "others" by shooting the dynamite
>Jin--same as Bernard

Except Jim missed, having only a pistol in the dark.

>Desmond--Accidentally killed the guy who he was in the hatch with who was trying to steal his boat (I can't remember the name)

Kelvin

>Oh and Anna Lucia also killed Shannon (in addition to Jason).

Add Other Nathan as well.

And did you mention Eko and two Others on the island as well as several baddies in Africa?

#395. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 4, 2009 8:34 AM

→ 370. Posted by: Cecil Rose
I'm working on a theory that there's actually only one outrigger canoe, and time-travelling Losties keep bringing it back and parking it beside itself.

Cool! Could i do that With 50 dollar bills?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

→ 375. Posted by: ransomjackson
The towel is a reference to Adams's popular science fiction comedy series The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Thanks for the info! I did not know this! Now which towel will I carry around that Day????? I better buy a new one..........

Did you ever read his detective books? I think they were better than the trilogy.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{

→ 378. Posted by: Michaelmvp
People are quick to suggest that Richard may have come to the island on the black rock but what if he was on the island prior to the black rock arriving? Only time will tell

2 Points!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

→ 379. Posted by: tiffani
my guess as to what the clue was when walt and locke were playing bacgammon and locke was explaining the game to walt and the history of the game. basically he told walt bacgammon was the oldest game in the world, something about ancient mesopatamia(i know i spelled it wrong, buti dont have time to grab a dictionary) and that its a battle of light verses dark, possibly meaning good vs. evil.

I concur
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

→ 381. Posted by: Crispy Seaplanes!
I think I'm getting a little punchy. Is it Wednesday yet????

YES!!!!!
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
391. Posted by: ealgumby
TNPLH3, TPID

Any idea how long I thought about these before I caught on? It's gonna be a loooong day.

One thing I do not see as production error ... a covering of dust over everything in the cave relative to Ben's FDW turning, and slight evidence of Ben's footprints/scrapes on the ground from when he was trying to turn the wheel.

maybe that was frost. And After Ben turned the wheel it melted.


If the O6 do not set things straight, the island will be destroyed in this manner. They have been sent back to prevent this ... JMHO.

What epi did you write your Time loop theory in? I want to read that again. You think 1954 to 2006? And would the problem have to be in 1954? I suppose the incident, in the 70's? could have been because something happened in 1954. But How did it start? Some event somewhere started the loop.And that event would not be in the loop. Faraday going to 1954 and telling them to bury the bomb, and what? NOT causing an explosion? Not destroying the island? maybe that's it! The island is not supposed to exist at all. And Ben/Widmore would not have a chance to exploit the island? And then 815 would not have crashed there.
OR....Maybe the Bomb should not be there at all. Maybe that is the problem. I knew the Pentagon would be involved somewhere in this. They put/dropped/lost that bomb and.....Hey! That's why it's called Lost!

I think I need a place for a time loop to start for this to work. But I am thinking this is good reasoning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

#396. Posted by: berkyo at March 4, 2009 8:44 AM

Thanks for the feedback on my rambling guys. Let's see what we are in store for with tonight's episode!!! Safe to say I can't wait.

Has anyone thought about what they are going to do once the series has ended. We should all rewatch the entire series one episode per week. We would be able to look at things from a fresh perspective and look for hints/clues to the overall plot/theme of the show.

Like my idea? We can even go as far as to create a specific site for our blogging. With Mac's guidance of course!!

#397. Posted by: Michaelmvp at March 4, 2009 8:58 AM

@ 395. Posted by: Cecil Rose

I think it was Goodwin who killed Nathan by snapping his neck when he let him out of the pit that Anna Lucia had him held captive in. Later Anna Lucia kills Goodwin by pushing him or something and he gets impaled by a pointy stick or something. I haven't re-watched that season for a while, but I think that's the general idea.

#398. Posted by: Christine Loves Lost at March 4, 2009 10:36 AM

@398 Christine Loves Lost

Absolutely right, Goodwin, not Nathan.

#399. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 4, 2009 11:06 AM

With all this speculation on deaths, is it time for another, updated edition of the Infamous Last Words on Lost Quiz, or should I hold off until the season is complete?

#400. Posted by: Cecil Rose at March 4, 2009 11:09 AM

@396, berkyo: "Did you ever read his detective books? I think they were better than the trilogy."

They are hilarious as well. Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency & The Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul. ahhh good times :)

Actually some of the reasoning that's going on in there reminds me a lot of Lost, or at least of the reasoning about Lost on this blog. Look at the following quote that I managed to find on the internet (don't have the books near):

"'Don't you listen to anything you say? The whole thing was obvious!' he exclaimed, thumping the table. 'So obvious that the only thing which prevented me from seeing the solution was the trifling fact that it was completely impossible. Sherlock Holmes observed that once you have eliminated the impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.'"


Hmmm.... is Locke Jack's Electric Monk?

#401. Posted by: Plain Simple at March 4, 2009 11:30 AM

So, I was trying to get in a deep discussion with a friend of mine about the crazy mysteries of Lost. This really is an obsession of mine. I'm gonna need to get a life when the show is over.

Anyway her response to me when I started trying to get all deep was, "It is just a show about redemption. All of the characters are just trying to redeeem themselves for past wrongs." Could it be that simple? Do we all need to get a hobby? Is it really just a character driven show about people with crazy pasts starting over? I'm going to be a very unhappy camper if there is no big reveal at the end. I will need to check into Santa Rosa with Hurley and Libby.

#402. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 4, 2009 2:12 PM

#402 lost2theworld

in my opinion, its never that simple with TPTB and i think they have proven that with the many television shows that they have created/worked on. take the show alias for example, i'm sure many thought it was going to be just another spy show and probably doubted it when even succeed as a tv show. well for those who were fans of the show it turned out to be much more than that and than some. while they did drop the ball toward the end and the one season where it was all about sydney, i still think it was one of the best tv shows ever.

now if by some chance that is all there is too it, many will be disappointed i'm sure but oh well, we will get over it.

#403. Posted by: tiffani at March 4, 2009 2:58 PM

@402/lost2theworld: “All of the characters are just trying to redeeem themselves for past wrongs." Could it be that simple?”

IMO, it’s actually more starting over, and starting over, and starting over …

The time looping is, in a manner of speaking, a search for redemption, with each “loop” representative of reincarnation/rebirth, and another chance to “course correct” back onto the path of dharma.

I do think the time looping theory makes a lot of sense, especially when one considers the frozen donkey wheel. As Lostpedia points out, many viewers have drawn the parallel between the FDW and the Dharmacakra … from Lostpedia’s entry for Dharmacakra:

“According to Buddhism, reaching a state of dharma through the turnings of the wheel can rescue you if you are spiritually lost.”

From wikipedia:

>>>
Mahayana schools classify Buddhist teachings in turns of a sequential scheme of development, in which the Buddha began with simple teachings and proceeded to more complex and difficult teachings. These phases are called "turnings" of the Dharmachakra.

Other schools of Buddhism, such as the Mahāyāna and Vajrāyāna distinguish later "turnings". Specific accounts of them vary. In one, the first turning of the Dharmachakra is Gautama Buddha's original teaching, in particular the Four Noble Truths which describes the mechanics of attachment, desire, suffering, and liberation via the Eightfold Path; the second turning is the teaching of the Perfection of Wisdom sutra, a foundational text of Mahayana Buddhism; and the third is the teaching of the Mahavairocana Sutra, a foundational text of Tantric Buddhism.
>>>

Let’s see, I presume Widmore turned the FDW to leave the island (whether tricked into doing so by Ben or not is another matter), then Ben turned it, and now Locke has turned it … three turnings of the wheel. And I suppose if we want to get really clever we might assume the show will end with “The Fourth Turning” … but that would be silly! ;)

#404. Posted by: ealgumby at March 4, 2009 3:14 PM

Or somebody turns it counter-clockwise:

The island stays and the earth goes "bloop!"

#405. Posted by: Cecil at March 4, 2009 4:10 PM

Great review Mac. Thanks.
Long time reader ......
Remember the Polar Bear skeleton that Charlotte's found in Tunisia, That would make it 4 FDW turns or Instead of the FDW should it be Frozen Polar Bear Wheel(FPBW), can't wait for tonight's ep.

#406. Posted by: gabo at March 4, 2009 6:11 PM

@ 403 ealgumby
regarding my post what if it's just about redemption

I really wouldn't have a problem if it turns out that for the losties the story is all about them reaching "dharma". I like what you said...

“According to Buddhism, reaching a state of dharma through the turnings of the wheel can rescue you if you are spiritually lost.”

That is a perfect fit. I will be upset though if nothing comes of all this conspiracy and drama surrounding Abbadon, Ben, Widmore, Paik (who I still think will be revealed as a key player), Christian, Smokey and Jacob. Those are the answers that I'm itching for. It will be a huge let down if all that is never explained.

On a totally different topic...does anyone still watch Heroes? I will admit that I am not sure why I still do as it jumped the shark many moons ago. Nevertheless, there I am every Monday, UGH. Anyway, for those who do, wouldn't it be funny if Ben turned out to be the mysterious Rebel? We all know that he controls EVERYTHING. Wouldn't it be a great nod and wink to all the fans that watch these shows.

They gave a similar nod on Chuck last year. During one of Chuck's flashes there was a flash of Oceanic flight 815. My husband and I replayed it two or three times to be sure and it was there, no doubt about it.

Sorry for the ramble. It is Wednesday and I am ready for a new show. Bring it on!

#407. Posted by: lost2theworld at March 4, 2009 7:03 PM

Wow...

New episode is on air as I type.
Started @7pm, here in Canada...

#408. Posted by: shikotee at March 4, 2009 7:09 PM

→ 404. ealgumby: “The Fourth Turning”:

I knew Strauss & Howe's generational theory would get tossed into the mixture at some point... ; >

#409. Posted by: Alaïs_Longthought at March 4, 2009 8:39 PM

show just ended on the east coast wow
am i the last commenter for last weeks
show? yay! boom!

#410. Posted by: jenny tailya at March 4, 2009 10:16 PM

im the last ahahahaaahahahahahaha

#411. Posted by: pdiddy at March 4, 2009 10:20 PM

Oh, so I just realized that the reason there was no security camera in Tunisia when Linus ended up there...was because those two locals were probably Widmore's security at the time. After Ben took care of them he needed to upgrade to cameras.

#412. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 4, 2009 10:39 PM

@343

I watched for the chick in the grey sweater during the rerun tonight and OMG it was amazing how she was constantly in the shots behind Locke in NYC!!! Even across the street in the last shot of him in the scene. Thanks for pointing that out; it was just great fun!

#413. Posted by: Glostover at March 4, 2009 11:06 PM

Observation about where Jin, Hurley, Jack and Kate are located after they crash the second time.

Isn't the waterfall area that Jack dives into to save Hurley from drowning, them both finding Kate, the same spot Kate and Sawyer took a dip in.. where they discover two bodies in plane seats? (I forget which episode)

I'm pretty sure it's the exact same spot, which would place them on the main Island.

Thanks

#414. Posted by: KG at March 5, 2009 12:26 AM

Uh yes. There is no debate about where Jack, Hurley, Kate, (or Sayid for that matter) first were when we see them after the crash. Not only have we seen all of those locations before, but Sawyer DROVE from Otherton to meet them.

#415. Posted by: FenwayBen at March 22, 2009 9:22 PM